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0_0	Lynne Neagle AM: Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David and Jack Sargeant. Vikki Howells is substituting for Jack Sargeant. So, Vikki, welcome; it's good to see you in the committee. Item 2 this afternoon is our elev...	meeting0	0	0	419
0_1	I'm very pleased to welcome Barry Hughes, who is Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales; Kwame Biney, who is senior policy advisor, CPS; and Iwan Jenkins, who is head of the complex casework unit, Crown Prosecution Service Cymru Wales. So thank you all for attending this afternoon. We're really looking forward to hearing yo...	meeting0	1	419	939
0_2	I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands, and how do you think the law as it currently stands today, and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment—how does that protect children. Barry Hughes: Sorry, can I just be clear? How does the law as it presently stands protect child...	meeting0	2	939	1,287
0_3	Barry Hughes: We have a range of offences created by the criminal law, going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last, which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people, including, in particular, Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, whic...	meeting0	3	1,287	1,844
0_4	In respect of children in particular, you'll be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004, which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child. That is a defence that is availab...	meeting0	4	1,844	2,347
0_5	Sian Gwenllian AM: Well, a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form—that that would be the best thing to do because there's no evidence that it's not working satisfactorily. You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be ...	meeting0	5	2,347	2,849
0_6	And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable, many of those types of behaviour are not now, and the law has changed to reflect that. We don't need to go back a very long way to find, for example, that there was no such offenc...	meeting0	6	2,849	3,280
0_7	And from what I've seen of the research, and I think back to the 2007 review, to which you've just referred, there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing. And I've seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in cha...	meeting0	7	3,280	3,871
0_8	Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you. We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework—that is, to take out this reasonable punishment defence, that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals. Does the CPS have a view on that? Barry Hughes: ...	meeting0	8	3,871	4,367
0_9	And when it comes to prosecuting, it's often the case that things aren't just black and white; there are multiple shades of grey in between. We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity, in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm, causing gri...	meeting0	9	4,367	4,922
0_10	There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law, but that was at a time, at the end of the 1990s, the start of the 2000s, when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law. And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that t...	meeting0	10	4,922	5,431
0_11	So, there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that. As we wind forward some 15 years, I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation, and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children—some people have inte...	meeting0	11	5,431	5,889
0_12	And the reason why I say it's not as simple as that is, going back to my words a couple of minutes ago, it's rarely a case of being black and white; there are these degrees of grey. And removing that defence does make life clearer. Sian Gwenllian AM: What are the areas of grey that you refer to? Can you give a few exa...	meeting0	12	5,889	6,215
0_13	Barry Hughes: If you take an example—so, one of the examples that I've heard discussed has been a child—a young child; let's say a five-year-old child by the side of a road—who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic. The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back. Now, technically, taking hold of the ch...	meeting0	13	6,215	6,762
0_14	There's no hostility; it's simply taking hold of a child to protect them. At that point, the parent then seeks to admonish the child, tells them off and smacks the child on the legs. Now, that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement. Probably. But so much depends upon the circumstances,...	meeting0	14	6,762	7,293
0_15	As we move towards the other end of the spectrum, we might have repeated smacking, shouting, maybe hitting the child over the head as well. So, there is a spectrum of offending. Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature.	meeting0	15	7,293	7,575
0_16	There'll be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police, and the police would take some form of action, and then, as we move through the tiers, it'll reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown P...	meeting0	16	7,575	8,184
0_17	That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I've just described to you. Does that help to illustrate that, at one end, it's relatively white and the other end it's relatively black, but in the middle we have the shades of grey? Sian Gwenllian AM: But that would mean th...	meeting0	17	8,184	8,674
0_18	So, you are probably aware, but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway, when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors, which has a two-stage test. The first stage is whether there's sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction, an...	meeting0	18	8,674	9,301
0_19	So, we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied. So, to return to the point, if we have an offence where, let's say, there is a light smack at the time, the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us. We don't always agree with the police; generally we do, but we d...	meeting0	19	9,301	9,724
0_20	So, if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case—the light smacking on the leg—at present it's unlikely that would come to the CPS, because they would look at it and say, 'Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence.' If that defence is removed, then obviously there is a greater possibility...	meeting0	20	9,724	10,339
0_21	It may be that the police decide that it is—it may have been two smacks, three smacks, so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious. So, it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision. We would then apply independently the same test, and we would p...	meeting0	21	10,339	10,818
0_22	In the circumstances that I've described, every case is going to be unique on its own facts, but in the circumstances that I've described, if it is just a light smack and it's a one-off and there's no history of this, it would probably be the sort of offence we'd decide it wouldn't be in the public interest to prosecu...	meeting0	22	10,818	11,373
0_23	Barry Hughes: If this Bill goes through, then it will remove a defence, which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will refer it, because it will depend on the facts of each individual case. Sian Gwenllian AM...	meeting0	23	11,373	11,862
0_24	The Assembly doesn't have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS, as you know, in the absence of the Secretary of State's consent. What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that? Barry Hughes: Can I give you two examples? One of the implications is this—and it's fairly obvious bu...	meeting0	24	11,862	12,407
0_25	That, therefore, raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales, because it's fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales. One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on i...	meeting0	25	12,407	12,974
0_26	By the time we come over to this side of the water, there would be no such defence for the same journey, for the same act. And so, there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public. The second example that I'll give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of diver...	meeting0	26	12,974	13,475
0_27	Across the border in Scotland, it drops to 22 µg. So, the same act—. As you drive into Scotland, you're probably okay to drive if you've got 34 µg; by the time you get into Scotland, you won't be. And the consequences for you are significant, because of course it's an offence in Scotland, and not an offence in England...	meeting0	27	13,475	13,963
0_28	In our code, we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law. We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise. And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. So, would you see the necessity...	meeting0	28	13,963	14,554
0_29	We know there would be a period of time, perhaps as much as two years, or maybe a little more, while that takes place. There will be a further series of awareness raising. We have strategic implementation groups—Iwan sits on that group. So, we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according...	meeting0	29	14,554	15,146
0_30	And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales, we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences—and we might want to get into the number of potential offences, but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or th...	meeting0	30	15,146	15,737
0_31	Okay. So you're obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you're clearly very au fait with it and all its implications. What's actually been your involvement with the Government as they've been developing this legislation? Barry Hughes: My own personal involvement? Dawn Bowden AM: Or the service's. ...	meeting0	31	15,737	16,141
0_32	I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister—I met with Huw Irranca-Davies a little while ago, and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago—to discuss the overall implications, and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other. It hasn't been a very close-knit involvement, but we have had enough invol...	meeting0	32	16,141	16,673
0_33	I don't feel that it's been too much, nor do I feel we've been left on the side at all. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Now, we've just talked about the divergence of criminal law, and this is probably the first time that there's been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law, and so we were then talking about the gui...	meeting0	33	16,673	17,212
0_34	Barry Hughes: I think we would need to update the guidance, and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage, before the public interest stage. On the evidential stage, I doubt that we'll need to do much, other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is i...	meeting0	34	17,212	17,739
0_35	Dawn Bowden AM: And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales—well, and in England, actually, across the border—will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law? Barry Hughes: Not as of the present day. Give us a chance. [Laughter.] Dawn Bowden AM: But you would expect that to be something you would— ...	meeting0	35	17,739	18,094
0_36	To an extent, actually, I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already, because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor, I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we're doing, so staff are aware. I've discussed with staff and they've seen my blog and we've put it on our website: there have ...	meeting0	36	18,094	18,585
0_37	I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that, at present, may well happen. Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes? Barry Hughes: They would need to be aware, but not to t...	meeting0	37	18,585	18,990
0_38	So, in my office in Cardiff, for example, because we work digitally, I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London, and they work exclusively on London cases. But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales, and then there may be an interchange; they'll come to w...	meeting0	38	18,990	19,529
0_39	Dawn Bowden AM: That's helpful, thank you. My final question, Chair, is just whether you think there are any other significant cross-border issues that arise from this potential legislation. Barry Hughes: In addition to those that I've mentioned, probably not. It boils down to the fact that there's a defence in Englan...	meeting0	39	19,529	20,040
0_40	Lynne Neagle AM: I've got a supplementary from Suzy, and then Siân. Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I was going to ask this question later, but I think it fits in—. I've forgotten what I was going to ask; this is terrible. Oh no, that's right—obviously, this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment, and it's due to ...	meeting0	40	20,040	20,406
0_41	Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision? Barry Hughes: I honestly don't think that would necessarily be helpful. I've had some discussions with Kwame, who would have an involvement...	meeting0	41	20,406	20,735
0_42	What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors, which are set out, in my view, very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors, and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we're discussing here. So, it would be t...	meeting0	42	20,735	21,269
0_43	Suzy Davies AM: It's just that, personally, I think the public interest test is critical in all this, and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill, that was all. But thank you, anyway; I take your point. Lyn...	meeting0	43	21,269	21,794
0_44	Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion? Barry Hughes: There are other offences in Wales that don't exist in England, but they don't crop up very often. So, to give you examples, there is an offence of putting an electronic collar...	meeting0	44	21,794	22,342
0_45	There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales, which is not an offence—. So, you can see there are some, but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you won't commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public. Of co...	meeting0	45	22,342	22,884
0_46	One of the ways in which I've approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for, which is to set out, in essence, what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. It doesn't necessarily mean we need to use the law for that, but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour.	meeting0	46	22,884	23,192
0_47	I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this, namely the child, and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they don't presently have, but which they do have when they attain the age of 16.FootnoteLink So, I looked at this—. If I can give yo...	meeting0	47	23,192	23,530
0_48	I've had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes, and you'll have seen Winterbourne View, you'll have seen recently up in Durham, where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity, and sometimes, the carers become frustrated with th...	meeting0	48	23,530	23,962
0_49	In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying—but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16. That seems to me to not necessarily ...	meeting0	49	23,962	24,431
0_50	Barry Hughes: Well, it's certainly going through in parallel in Scotland, and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this, including a large number of European countries. Who knows? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment—who knows? Not tomorrow, I'd say. Lynn...	meeting0	50	24,431	25,016
0_51	Because the issue of whether something is punishment or not is going to disappear, providing that it's clear that contact with a child has happened. Is that going to work on the presumption that that's an unlawful contact? Is that something the prosecution will still have to prove, or will it be for an accused parent ...	meeting0	51	25,016	25,582
0_52	Suzy Davies AM: Perhaps you can run us through it quickly. Barry Hughes: If the defence argue that that act was—. So, we have to show that there's been an unlawful assault. So, if we remove the defence of reasonable chastisement, in a sense that alters some things but it doesn't alter the basic responsibility of the p...	meeting0	52	25,582	25,971
0_53	And if the defence raise an argument and say, 'Well, look, that was a lawful act; I was only doing what I thought was reasonable in the circumstances', it's for the Crown to disprove that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. That's great. Barry Hughes: And we've got to disprove that to the criminal standard, which is beyond a reaso...	meeting0	53	25,971	26,331
0_54	I can see the potential for individuals who feel strongly about this to look to contest the matter, to not admit any wrongdoing at all and to take the matter to trial, and it would be our responsibility to disprove that. Suzy Davies AM: Okay. That's really helpful for us to understand that. Obviously, when we're talki...	meeting0	54	26,331	26,847
0_55	Because one of the things that we have to consider is that once you're arrested, that is recorded somewhere and will appear in things like DBS checks in the future, even if it goes no further. Do you have any views on how intervention might work better earlier on, even at the point of the knock at the door? Barry Hugh...	meeting0	55	26,847	27,357
0_56	Unlike in many other jurisdictions, we have no power whatsoever to direct the police, so if the police decide not to investigate—. I routinely get letters from members of the public outraged that the police have decided not to investigate their particular neighbour dispute or something, and they want us to do somethin...	meeting0	56	27,357	27,932
0_57	Is there anything at the moment that you think perhaps you still need to do as an organisation towards being in a position to practically implement this law? Barry Hughes: I think we need to maintain the type of dialogue that we've built up with the Welsh Government and colleagues there. I think we need to keep abreas...	meeting0	57	27,932	28,364
0_58	We have other members of my staff who are involved in the other work streams that feed through to that, and I believe that that involvement will ensure that we are sufficiently interconnected; that we can liaise, in turn, with Kwame and his colleagues in the headquarters to respond to things as they develop. So, I thi...	meeting0	58	28,364	28,877
0_59	Suzy Davies AM: So, you're confident, by 2022, then, that you'll have changes to the CPS guidelines that are good to go, if you like. Barry Hughes: Fit for purpose, yes. Suzy Davies AM: Yes. Okay, that's great. Bear with me a second—thank you very much—in your written evidence, you did welcome the indication from the ...	meeting0	59	28,877	29,280
0_60	Apart from the CPS guideline changes, which you'll be working through, is there anything else you think you might be needing to do apart from just keeping in touch? I'm just thinking: are there any practical and possibly financial implications for your workforce in this? Barry Hughes: If this legislation goes through,...	meeting0	60	29,280	29,956
0_61	Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And what about afterwards, then? Because one of the pieces of thinking behind this Act is to collect data to see whether this change in the law actually works. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about how that might affect you? I don't know who to ask on this. Barry Hughes: Certainly. We...	meeting0	61	29,956	30,414
0_62	Normally, we do this through our case management system, which is England-and-Wales wide, and you'd put a flag on. So, for example, domestic abuse, there's a flag for that, and assault on a child, there's a flag for that. But this would be a very specific flag for assault on a child—reasonable chastisement. Trying to ...	meeting0	62	30,414	30,905
0_63	That would be unmanageable if we were dealing with hundreds and hundreds of cases. Suzy Davies AM: So, you're not anticipating hundreds and hundreds. Barry Hughes: Not at all. Not at all. My take on it: I've seen and spoken with Matt Jukes about this, from South Wales Police; I have seen the justice impact assessment;...	meeting0	63	30,905	31,441
0_64	I would be very surprised if we were to prosecute anything other than low single figures a year, if that much. If that much. We may have more referrals from the police, but I doubt it would be double the figure we prosecute, even. So, you're talking small numbers. Now, small numbers—and we might not have any. Okay? It...	meeting0	64	31,441	31,929
0_65	There are out-of-court disposals and there are all sorts of diversions that you will have discussed, and I know you've discussed, with the police and the police and crime commissioner. So, the numbers will be very small, which means we would be able to keep a clear track on those and, obviously, we would wish to keep ...	meeting0	65	31,929	32,400
0_66	And I'd like to think that we will be doing that in consultation with interested parties and stakeholders. We do this already with certain types of offences. We have what we call local scrutiny involvement panels. So, for offences such as racially aggravated offending, whether it's criminal damage or offence against t...	meeting0	66	32,400	33,053
0_67	That, in turn, helps us shape and improve the way that we prosecute these cases and I can foresee that, after this legislation came in, we might get 18 months, two years down the road, and I can see us sitting in a room with some of the cases we've prosecuted, maybe cases we've decided not to prosecute, with the polic...	meeting0	67	33,053	33,553
0_68	Suzy Davies AM: That's really helpful to know because, of course, one of the difficulties of dealing with the culture change, which is what the Minister's effectively after here, is that we are still talking about it in the context of criminal legislation. It's nobody's fault; that's just how it is.	meeting0	68	33,553	33,854
0_69	And what I'm hearing from you is that the chances of somebody who's currently protected by the defence and is not part of a bigger case where there's serial smacking or other difficulties in a family, for example—the chances of them getting to you in the first place are pretty low, and then the chances of them passing...	meeting0	69	33,854	34,426
0_70	Maybe that's not a question you feel that you can answer, but you can see why I'm asking the question. Barry Hughes: I can attempt an answer. I follow entirely where you're going. I agree, the chances are pretty low, but they're greater than they are presently. In other words, there is a greater degree of protection f...	meeting0	70	34,426	34,854
0_71	I go back to what I was saying to you right at the start, about the evolution of the law, and the way we've seen many other countries around the world adopt a very similar approach to that being proposed by the Welsh Government is, in my view, an evolution of the law. So, yes, there may not be many more prosecutions, ...	meeting0	71	34,854	35,394
0_72	The Children Act 2004 applies to a child up to the age of 18— Barry Hughes: Sixteen. Lynne Neagle AM: You mentioned 16; that's what I wanted to clarify. Our understanding was that it went up to 18. Barry Hughes: I'm reasonably confident that it's 16.FootnoteLink Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Okay, thank you. We've got some q...	meeting0	72	35,394	35,838
0_73	You've already touched quite a bit on the issue of the public interest test. Is there anything else you'd like to put on record about the factors that the CPS would be taking into consideration when applying the public interest test in respect of this Bill? Barry Hughes: Can I give you an example, which might illustra...	meeting0	73	35,838	36,281
0_74	If we take an adult with a small child—say, a four-year-old—in a supermarket, and the child is pulling cans off the shelves, it's quite annoying, and they keep doing it and keep doing it. The parent remonstrates, and the parent ends up finding that verbal admonishment is inadequate, and smacks the child lightly on the...	meeting0	74	36,281	36,833
0_75	In other words, the evidential stage wouldn't be passed; you don't get on to consider the public interest. But if we have that same parent in there the following week, and you have the same happen again, presently, the defence would apply. Now, there comes a point in time when the defence stops applying. If that defen...	meeting0	75	36,833	37,340
0_76	So, that would be the distinction between how things are now and how they would be in the future, because the defence would not be available, so the public interest test would then come to the fore that much more quickly. So, when we apply the public interest test, the essence of it is about proportionality, and tryin...	meeting0	76	37,340	37,729
0_77	We look at the age of the offender, the age of the victim, we look at the circumstances, we look at the impact upon the victim, we look at the impact that's likely in relation to the suspect, and there is, within the code, a long list of matters that we take into account. Some of them are fairly obvious, such as previ...	meeting0	77	37,729	38,271
0_78	Mostly, it's reasonably obvious; the more serious an offence, the more likely you are to be prosecuted. Vikki Howells AM: Thank you, that's really useful, and— Lynne Neagle AM: Just before you move on, can I ask you a question? This morning the committee was meeting with groups of parents who are opposed to the Bill a...	meeting0	78	38,271	38,837
0_79	Can you just clarify for the record how the best interests of the child would be taken into account in considering whether to go forward with a prosecution? Barry Hughes: Normally, if there were an assault by someone else upon a child, outside the family, we would tend to take views from the parents of that child. In ...	meeting0	79	38,837	39,425
0_80	I can foresee real difficulties in circumstances where we have parents who are separating where the children are being used, effectively, in divorce proceedings, for example, where we might have one parent saying there was a really bad impact upon the child and the other parent saying there wasn't. We'd want to find a...	meeting0	80	39,425	39,951
0_81	It's not determinative, nor is it determinative in cases where we prosecute for adult defendants inflicting some form of assault upon adult victims. It's not determinative but it is a factor that we take into account. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Suzy, you've got a supplementary on that. Suzy Davies AM: Yes.	meeting0	81	39,951	40,266
0_82	In the same session this morning I thought this was an interesting question raised by a parent, on the rights of the child side of things, where if a parent offers a child two forms of punishment because that child has done something that they know they shouldn't have, and they're given the option of, 'You can have a ...	meeting0	82	40,266	40,754
0_83	I'm not offering any views on the fact that this choice has been given, but it was put to us today about how would that fall in the law once it were changed. Barry Hughes: That's a really interesting question. There is a body of law that— Suzy Davies AM: A child can't consent to assault. Barry Hughes: Yes, you can't c...	meeting0	83	40,754	41,256
0_84	I can think of one case where a man branded his initials on a woman's buttocks, but she consented to it and the Court of Appeal held that they could consent to that. I can also think of a series of cases, which I won't get into here, that involve sadomasochistic behaviour between adults, some of which was really serio...	meeting0	84	41,256	41,788
0_85	Then, you may have seen there was a case from the midlands recently where a gentleman operating a tattoo parlour was also involved in body surgery—splitting people's tongues. That went too far as well. So, there is again—I referred before to the spectrum of offending, and there is a clear spectrum of offending that yo...	meeting0	85	41,788	42,292
0_86	When it comes to much lesser assaults, the law is more unclear as to what you can consent to. Suzy Davies AM: Yes, because we're talking below a certain standard here as well. Okay. Barry Hughes: As to what you can consent to, it's less clear. It would need to be developed. Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you for that. Ly...	meeting0	86	42,292	42,785
0_87	In your written evidence, you say there's ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill. Firstly, could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option? Barry Hughes: We've been working with the National Police Chiefs' Council. Their lead is depu...	meeting0	87	42,785	43,417
0_88	I must say, this is primarily a matter for the police, because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an out-of-court disposal. Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something—. There's a document called ...	meeting0	88	43,417	43,908
0_89	Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an out-of-court disposal. There may be cases where it's genuinely very difficult to assess what's the best approach, in which case we will have a conversation with them...	meeting0	89	43,908	44,316
0_90	There will also be cases, and we see these not that rarely, where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage, and we take a different view on the public interest stage. So, we might say—for example, it involves a 15-year...	meeting0	90	44,316	44,757
0_91	We aren't responsible for administering the out-of-court disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal, if, for example, it has conditions attached, such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate. That's not our responsibility—that will fall to the police—but we can decide that an out...	meeting0	91	44,757	45,189
0_92	One final question on that then: creating a body of out-of-court disposals that are specific to this Bill—how would that actually work in practice do you think, given the fact that the Assembly's legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited? Barry Hughes: The way I might see it is that, ...	meeting0	92	45,189	45,701
0_93	You can't direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that, but, if you build a good infrastructure, it's more likely that people will be pointed in that direction. Vikki Howells AM: And who would build that infrastructure, in your opinion? Barry Hughes: Somewhere within Wales—Welsh Government, local authorit...	meeting0	93	45,701	46,263
0_94	Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. If I could just ask about awareness raising, then: you mentioned the Bill in Scotland, but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change. There's no such duty proposed in this Bill. Do you think that's right or should this committee be saying that there should...	meeting0	94	46,263	46,704
0_95	I can, however, say that I think the greater the level of awareness, the more likely it is that the Act, if passed, will achieve its intentions. Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. And, in your written evidence, you mentioned the fact that there's no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a...	meeting0	95	46,704	47,204
0_96	Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who's come from outside the UK, for example? Barry Hughes: It's straightforward: if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here—by this country, I'd say England or Wales; I'd treat them as one for these...	meeting0	96	47,204	47,706
0_97	So, raising awareness is important, and I saw, and I was pleased to see, that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation, which is now going through, reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales, and I think the Government would be well placed here to take...	meeting0	97	47,706	48,297
0_98	Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Siân Gwenllian. Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, we've discussed some of these already, but, for example, under the new law, or the proposed law, would one unintended consequence be that, if someone living in Wales who can't use ...	meeting0	98	48,297	48,846
0_99	A simple answer: if somebody in Wales is convicted—so, if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious, which results in a prosecution—. It may be—the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of out-of-court disposal and says, 'Prosecute me...	meeting0	99	48,846	49,249

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Chunk-level Retrieval Eval

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Contextualized chunk-level (query2chunk) retrieval eval for the Citras benchmark. • 22 items • Updated about 1 hour ago