Source: http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=123258&p=1033425
Timestamp: 2019-01-16 14:56:10
Document Index: 76197509

Matched Legal Cases: ['§ 91', '§ 91', 'art 23', '§ 91', '§ 91', '§ 91', '§ 91', '§ 91', '§ 91', '§ 91', '§ 91', '§ 91', 'art 23']

Be careful what you report finding on the walkaround - AVCANADA
Be careful what you report finding on the walkaround
#1 Post by pelmet » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:42 pm
Went flying in a C172 a while back on a beautiful sunny day and another one in the fleet was grounded with bookings cancelled due to the strobes being inop. Apparently, they were following the legal rules which can be found in this article and apparently similar in Canada. Maybe just don't check the operational capability of certain non-useful items until back at base.
INOPERATIVE ANTICOLLISION LIGHTS
If your aircraft’s anticollision lights include both a red rotating beacon and white strobe lights, can you operate in VFR day conditions with only one of those working while the other is inoperative? The short answer is no, unless authorized by a waiver. Placarding the equipment inoperative is not sufficient.
The FAA’s Office of the Chief Counsel recently issued the Letts legal interpretation which examines this question in light of the applicable Federal Aviation Regulations (FARs). The analysis turns first to § 91.205(b), which addresses required equipment for VFR day operations. The FAA’s position is that if an aircraft is equipped with both strobe lights and a rotating beacon, then they are considered to be part of the same anticollision system rather than separate systems. The conclusion is that all parts of the system required by 91.205(b) for day VFR must be “in operable condition” per § 91.205(a), which for Part 23 airplanes certificated after March 11, 1996 include anticollision lighting.
The interpretation acknowledges that in some cases, certain equipment may be placarded inoperative under § 91.213(d)(2). Part of that analysis hinges on whether the equipment was part of the aircraft’s Day VFR type certification and whether it is required by § 91.205(b). For further discussion on the process of determining airworthiness with inoperative equipment, see the October 2017 Pilot Protection Services article “Inoperative Equipment Shouldn’t Stay That Way Indefinitely.” However, for practical purposes, what matters in the context of anticollision lighting is how the aircraft is currently equipped.
The FAR that deals specifically with aircraft lights, § 91.209(b), provides that no person may “operate an aircraft that is equipped with an anticollision light system, unless it has lighted anticollision lights.” There is an exception allowing the pilot-in-command to determine that, “in the interest of safety,” operating conditions dictate that the lights be turned off. However, the exception does not apply to inoperative equipment. The interpretation concludes that because the strobes and the rotating beacon are part of the same anticollision lighting system, the requirements of § 91.209(b) cannot be obviated by placarding the red rotating beacon inoperative and using only the strobe lights. The entire system must be functional unless a waiver from the requirements of § 91.209(b) is obtained from the FAA.
Neither the letter to the Office of the Chief Counsel requesting the interpretation nor the interpretation itself addresses the possibility of removing the inoperative equipment. Removal is one permitted method of dealing with inoperative equipment per § 91.213(d)(3)(i) as long as the conditions of § 91.213(d)(1) and § 91.213(d)(2) are satisfied (these address the type of aircraft and whether the equipment is required by certain regulations or documents, respectively). However, it is also necessary to consider the potential to negatively impact safety by removing part of an anticollision light system. The removal option may not pass muster with § 91.213(d)(4), which requires that a determination be made that the removal or deactivation of inoperative equipment do not constitute “a hazard to the aircraft.”
https://pilot-protection-services.aopa. ... 1520145518
Re: Be careful what you report finding on the walkaround
#2 Post by photofly » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:13 pm
Canada has different regulations.
#3 Post by PostmasterGeneral » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:40 pm
I always look for reasons NOT to go flying. If something is broken, it’s broken. If it grounds the plane, then it’s sn excuse for me to start drinking beer that much earlier!
#4 Post by pelmet » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:10 am
I did say in my post that I apparently it is the same here. That could be wrong but the aircraft at the Canadian flight school was grounded for inop strobes.
#5 Post by photofly » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:46 am
I invite someone to reason, with references to relevant and governing Canadian regulations, that a Canadian 172 with u/s strobes is unairworthy. Nodding to our recent discussion of the certification requirements of the G1000 equipped models, let’s perform the regulatory analysis for a 1975 model ‘M’.
I don’t believe it to be the case, but I’m always up for learning. (Since it’s impossible to ‘prove’ a negative, I can’t definitely show a regulation that says it’s ok to fly such an airplane, but I don’t know of one that says it isn’t.)
A flight school operates under an FTUOC that has defect reporting, maintenance procedures and airworthiness requirements dictated in the approved TC paperwork which go beyond the CARs requirements, so let’s stick to privately operated aircraft, too.
#6 Post by Heliian » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:39 am
Lighting is outlined in the CAR's
For Day VFR, you do not need lighting, however, if you are deactivating a system already installed then the regulations for such need to be followed.
CAR's 605 is your best start, then it goes into the standards for a/c and lighting specifications.
Any FTU or operator could easily use an MEL to defer lighting also.
#7 Post by pelmet » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:03 am
I think the first (b) may be applicable in my case.
#8 Post by photofly » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:43 am
Substantiate that strobes are “required”. (I think I have good evidence that they are not).
Does anything other than (b) apply?
#9 Post by Heliian » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:02 am
Only if the Type Cert says so. The following is from CAR 523(normal cat aeroplane), Same for transport cat. aeroplane.
523.1401 Anti-collision Light System
(a) General. The aeroplane MUST have an anti-collision light system that:
However, normal rotorcraft and 523VLA state that they are required only for Night certification:
#10 Post by ScottS » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:31 am
I thought I read somewhere that the issue is that the new 172 have MELs that include strobes. I have never seen the manual of a new 172, so I am just farting out speculation here.
So on an old 172, strobes out, fill your boots because they aren't required for Day VFR in Canada (we had a Cherokee 140 with dead strobes). New 172, MEL says no go without strobes in Day VFR.
#11 Post by pelmet » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:59 pm
Could someone point out to me where the MEL would be located. I see a Comprehensive Equipment List in the POH.
#12 Post by photofly » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:48 pm
There’s no MEL, but the equipment list is in section 6 of the POH, and in it items are marked -R, -S, -O or -A for required, standard, optional or additional as the rubric describes.
If an item isn’t marked as -R it’s hard to argue the manufacturers considers it to be required.
#13 Post by HansDietrich » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:58 pm
Spoken like a true pilot! I 2nd that one, thought I try not to screw over the company / pax with useless reasons. It's an internal battle between morality and my love for beer.
#14 Post by pelmet » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:14 pm
And the item in question is marked as -S for standard.
#15 Post by photofly » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:34 am
So it’s fitted to all aircraft, as standard equipment, but it’s not required for airworthiness.
#16 Post by pelmet » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:04 am
Thanks, so the answer for the airworthiness of the aircraft when it comes to strobes is......airworthy in Canada but not in the U.S. (What about flying this aircraft in the US?)
If so, then there was a misinterpretation by the person who grounded this particular C172.
That being said, I think I will check strobe operation at this facility after landing, after all, there is no legal or flight school requirement to check its operation prior to flight(although it is in the checklist to check light operation).
#17 Post by B208 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:55 am
In Canada it depends on whether the aircraft is operated privately or as part of a commercial air service. If it's a private aircraft the PIC has a great deal of latitude in determining its airworthiness. If the aircraft is operated as part of a commercial air service then the PIC must follow the Maintenance Control Manual.
#18 Post by photofly » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:17 pm
Flight schools have a Maintenance Control Manual, so different rules may apply.
I believe the country of registration sets the airworthiness standards, regardless of in which country the aircraft is operated.
#19 Post by pelmet » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:52 pm
If the aircraft is operated as part of a commercial air service then the PIC must follow the Maintenance Control Manual.
I bet the number of PIC's that have read a significant portion of a maintenance Control manual for their flight school or any operation is near zero.
#20 Post by photofly » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:06 pm
If american planes need anti collision lights, how do you fly a non-electric airplane? Oil lamps?
#21 Post by pelmet » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:27 pm
No one said American planes need anti-collision lights. The first post says that according to the FAA, American planes equipped with anti-collision lights are only airworthy if the anti-collision lights are operational. Airplanes without electric systems are not equipped with anti-collision lights.
#22 Post by photofly » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:53 am
91.205(b)(11) requires for all day VFR flight
For small civil airplanes certificated after March 11, 1996, in accordance with part 23 of this chapter, an approved aviation red or aviation white anticollision light system.
There’s no exemption for aircraft without an electrical system, so I don’t see how non-electric airplanes can be certified any more.
Would a set of individual lights with dry cells like bicycle light be approved?
#23 Post by pelmet » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:36 am
Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:53 am
Not sure...let us know when you figure it out. Which should pretty much mean the end of this thread.
Meanwhile, as implied by the thread title, I'm going flying but not checking the strobes prior to the flight, just in case a mechanic misinterprets the regs and wants to cancel my flight.
#24 Post by pelmet » Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:31 pm
A bit of an update on grounding aircraft for ridiculous reasons. Went flying the other day in a twin and the instructor was telling me about going to pick up a DA-40 on the west coast to ferry it back east for the new owner. Among his many reasons for refusing to fly the aircraft(some of which were valid) was that there was no portable fuel measuring device which is according to this forum link...."a glass graduated tubing that fits in a pin hole in the stall strip of each wing. You plug it to the tank drain and read the fuel quantity" and costs about 500 dollars from the manufacturer.
https://www.diamondaviators.net/forum/v ... php?t=3686
One was finally found but the glass was cracked(which apparently happens easily). To be honest, the DA-40 I flew did not have one but apparently it is listed in the Kinds of operation equipment list as required.
I vaguely recalled reading about this device once or twice and asking about it back when I flew this type. I listened politely of course as he was quite adament about the regs being followed and it is interesting to know the regs but I can't see myself cancelling a flight because there is no secondary fuel measuring device like that in the DA-40.
#25 Post by photofly » Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:42 pm
New owner: "Thanks for bringing me my airplane. Now, where's the fuel measuring device?"
Ferry pilot: "It's broken."
New owner: "Then you owe me $500 for a replacement."
Ferry pilot: "It was broken when I collected the airplane."
New owner: "That fuel measuring device is clearly listed as required equipment. The airplane isn't airworthy without it. Do you mean to say you've knowingly been flying my airplane in an un-airworthy condition? In breach of insurance requirements and regulations? Buy me a new one, or I shall have to take this further."
Sometimes, it's best to avoid even the possibility of an argument, from the outset.