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Caryl Deposition #3
Caryl Leventhal's
Third Deposition Taken 23 May 2000 and Posted
music capable Internet Explorer or AOL, text accompanied by Marlene Dietrich's
"Falling In Love Again" SITE-MAP Ms. Leventhal's deposition was conducted within an environment of crank calls, and a recorded
death threat by the US Department of Justice that the Leventhals either drop the process or be taken care of,
"Nazi style." Subsequently, Alan R. Kaufman Chief of the US Attorney's Office Criminal Division (through Ms. Leventhal's Attorney) will threaten arrest and prosecution if this website isn't censored).
Caryl Leventhal was one of the first US Department of Justice Immigration and Naturalization Service
whistleblowers to the type of terrorist friendly corruption and indolence endemic in the USDOJ Immigration and Naturalization Service that will subsequently lead to the death of thousands in America. Thanks to the way laws are structured in America, this can not be a bases of her suit. These concerns and obstructionism in the internal USDOJ INS Administrative Complaint Process motivated Ms. Leventhal to bring her suit to court. She hopes to get testimony to these abuses before it is too late. Some of this can be found in the deposition of
Brenda Grant.
3 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
5 CARYL B. LEVENTHAL,
6 Plaintiff,
7 -against-
8 HON. JANET RENO, Attorney General
13 May 23, 2000
17 CONTINUED DEPOSITION of CARYL B. LEVENTHAL,
18 the Plaintiff in the abbve-entitled action, held
19 at the above time and place, taken before Ellen
20 Katz, a Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public of
21 the State of New York, pursuant to Rule 26 et
22 seq. of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure,
23 Notice and stipulations between Counsel.
VERITEXT L.L.C.
(212) 267-6868 (516) 608-2400
2 APPEARANCES:
MICHAEL BRESSLER, ESQ.
5 New York, New York 10036 '
7 MARY JO WHITE, ESQ.
8 U.S. Attorney's Office
9 Attorneys for Defendant
100 Church Street - 19th Floor
10 New York, New York 10007
11 BY: ERIC B. FISHER, ESQ., of Counsel
1 C.B. Leventhal
2 C A R Y L B . L E V E N T H A L, the
3 Plaintiff herein, having previously been duly
4 sworn by the Notary Public, was examined and
5 testified further as follows:
6 EXAMINATION BY MR. FISHER:
7 Q. Miss Leventhal, since this is our
8 third session, as you know, my name is Eric
9 Fisher and I'm representing the Department of
10 Justice in this action.
11 As in the previous two sessions,
12 I'll be asking you a number of questions today.
13 If at any point, you do not understand a
14 question, as I've put it to you, please let me
15 know and I'll be happy to rephrase. Is that
16 clear?
18 Q. Is there any condition that you're
19 aware of that will interfere with your ability to
20 provide complete and accurate testimony today?
22 Q. I see that you've brought with you
23 certain papers?
25 Q. At the last deposition, you also
brought papers with you?
Q. And I have copies of those papers.
Q. Are there any papers that you've
brought with you today that you did not have at
These are the same papers.
I think these are all the same.
Maybe this one you don't have (indicating), but it's very short and to the
Q. Thank you. I will copy that one piece of paper --
Q. deposition.
A. record?
A. It will just take a few seconds.
(Reading) I feel okay now, but I have multiple sclerosis. I get fatigued very
easily. When I become fatigued, I suffer mental
-- at the conclusion of the
May I read a statement in the
(212) 267-6868
(516) 608-2400
2 confusion. I could easily misunderstand the
3 questions and give the wrong answers.
4 Q. Miss Leventhal, if at any point
5 today you feel yourself becoming fatigued or
6 confused, please let me know and we can terminate
7 the deposition at that point; is that clear?
9 Q. Ms. Leventhal, at any point during
10 your employment with the INS, did any of your
11 supervisors tell you that they were not satisfied
12 with your job performance?
13 A. At what time?
14 Q. I'm not restricting my question in
15 terms of time. At any point during your
16 employment with the INS, did any of your
17 supervisors tell you that they were not satisfied
18 with your job performance?
19 A. They may have.
20 Q. In particular, can you recall
21 something that one of your supervisors told you
22 about your job performance?
23 A. Could you tell me a specific time?
24 You're asking a broad question. If you could -
25 maybe a month.
2 Q. When is it that you began
3 employment with INS?
4 A. I began employment with INS in
5 October of 1995.
6 Q. From October, 1995 until the end of
7 1995, do you recall any conversations that you
8 had with any of your supervisors that concerned
9 the quality of your job performance?
10 A. A specific conversation?
12 A. I don't recall a specific
13 conversation.
14 Q. Do you remember generally during
15 this time period hearing any comments from your
16 supervisors about the quality of your job
17 performance?
18 A. I remember Brenda Grant saying or
19 giving the impression that she wanted the work
20 done, processed as quickly as possible in the
21 clerical pool.
22 Q. Was it your sense that Miss Grant
23 felt that the work was not being processed as
24 quickly as it should be?
25 A. She wanted it processed as quickly
2 as possible whether or not it was done accurately
3 or not.
4 Q. Did she tell you that the work was
5 not being processed as quickly as she would like?
7 Q. When do you recall her telling you
9 A. That may have been in November,
10 December of 1995.
11 Q. When she told you that, did you
12 respond?
13 A. I told her that certain things had
14 to take place for it to be done accurately and
15 completely.
16 Q. Did she have a response to that?
17 A. She said she just wanted it done as
18 quickly as possible.
19 Q. Approximately how long did this
20 conversation that you're now remembering last?
21 A. It may have gone on for ten
22 minutes, twenty minutes, five minutes.
23 Q. Can you remember any other
24 conversations during this time period when
25 Miss Grant communicated any dissatisfaction with
2 your job performance?
3 A. The problem I felt was not being
4 able to get accurate information from Miss Grant,
5 as far as doing the job.
6 Q. I will get back to the issue of why
7 it is that you felt that you weren't provided
8 with what you needed to perform the job
9 satisfactorily, but the question is: Can you
10 recall any other conversations where Miss Grant
11 communicated to you her dissatisfaction with your
12 job performance during the period from October,
13 1995 until the end of that year?
14 A. I believe in January of 1996, when
15 I had come back from being out for a few days
16 because I was beginning to feel the effects of my
17 multiple sclerosis since I was doing the heavy
18 lifting and I was basically doing heavy lifting,
19 which is not on the job description, as you're
20 well aware, and I told her at that time I can't
21 do this because I'm not a warehouse person. I'm
22 here to do clerical work, to supervise the
23 clerical pool.
24 Q. At that time did Miss Grant
25 communicate to you any dissatisfaction with your
2 job performance?
3 A. She said you have to do -- you have
4 to get the workout. We have to have it move.
5 Q. So what in particular was her
6 complaint to you at that time?
7 A. Basically, that it just wasn't
8 being done quickly enough.
9 Q. When she said you have to get the
10 workout, did you know what she meant?
11 A. She basically just wanted the
12 cases, rather than -- rather than each case being
13 adjudicated properly, just to have it completed
14 and sent on its way.
15 Q. Is it fair to say then that in
16 January, 1996, she told you that the work
17 continued not to be processed quickly enough?
18 A. She may have.
19 Q. Do you have a recollection?
20 A. I have recollections of
21 conversations that I have with Miss Grant, but
22 understand this is 19 -- excuse me, this is the
23 year 2000, and I was fired from INS in 1996. So
24 it's been a period of time. Specific instances,
25 of course, stand out in my mind, but again it's
2 been time.
3 Q. One of those instances that stands
4 out is a conversation in January, 1996?
6 Q. I'm just asking to the best of your
7 recollection, realizing that time has elapsed,
8 what exactly did Miss Grant say to you about your
9 job performance at that time?
10 A. She said, we need the work to be
11 processed more quickly. We need the cases to be
12 processed more quickly; whether they were done
13 accurately or not. That was her implication.
14 Q. Did she say that she didn't care
15 about the accuracy of the work?
16 A. She didn't say it in so many words,
17 but that was definitely her implication.
18 Q. Focusing now on Miss Grant alone,
19 the period beginning January, 1996 until your
20 termination from the INS, do you recall any other
21 instances where Miss Grant expressed to you
22 dissatisfaction with the quality of your work
23 performance?
24 A. The problem I had with Miss Grant
25 also is oftentimes -- I'm not trying to avoid
2 your question -- but she would oftentimes, rather
3 than speak to me directly as a supervisory
4 applications' clerk, she would go around me to
5 the lead clerk who was below me in the chain of
6 command, Delores Filbert, and they would have
7 conversations when Dolores Filbert would come in
9 Q. I would ask you about those
10 conversations in a moment.
11 A. I wasn't present during those
12 conversations.
13 Q. Clearly, you have an awareness that
14 there were such conversations. I will ask you
15 about them in a moment.
16 I'm now asking whether you can
17 recall any other conversations with Miss Grant
18 where she told you that she was not happy with
19 your job performance?
20 A. Well, there was in, I believe,
21 December, as I mentioned, January, okay, and
22 there was later on in, I believe, April.
23 Q. What did Miss Grant tell you in
24 April, 1996, concerning your job performance?
25 A. That she needed the work done more
2 quickly, the cases adjudicated more quickly. She
3 wanted the flow of the paperwork speeded up.
4 Q. Do you remember if she provided any
5 other criticism concerning your job performance
7 A. She may have. I don't recall
8 offhand, but she definitely -- she may have.
9 Q. Approximately how long did the
10 April, 1996 conversation last?
11 A. It may have been a half an hour.
12 Q. Where did that conversation take
13 place?
14 A. On the 10th floor in front of the
15 clerical staff.
16 Q. Was anyone else a party to that
17 conversation?
18 A. Yes. The whole floor heard the
19 whole thing. When I say "the whole floor," I
20 mean the whole clerical staff on the 10th floor.
21 Q. Aside from telling you that she
22 needed the work done more quickly, did she tell
23 you anything else that related to your job
24 performance in April, 1996?
25 A. She may have. I don't recall at
VER1TEXT L.L.C.
2 this moment. I may later on.
3 Q. After April, 1996, did Miss Grant
4 have any conversations with you in which she
5 communicated dissatisfaction with your work
7 A. When I had my interim review in
8 June of 1996, it was her -- it was with her. It
9 was also with Agatha Stewart, who at that time
10 was my first-line supervisor. As I believe I
11 mentioned during our last, you know, meeting, the
12 the line of command, if you want to call it that,
13 was very fluid. Miss Grant stopped being my
14 first-line supervisor, I believe, in January of
15 1996 and that's when Miss Stewart became my
16 first-line supervisor; but Miss Grant was
17 involved, basically, supervising me unofficially
18 rather than Miss Grant -- excuse me, Miss Stewart
19 supervising me because at that time, I believe
20 she became my second-line supervisor and
21 Miss Stewart was the first-line supervisor.
22 Q. So is it your testimony that in
23 June, 1996, Miss Grant had another conversation
24 with you that related to your job performance?
25 A. Yes. That was, I believe, Friday;
2 June 7th, 1997 -- excuse me, I'm sorry, June 7,
4 Q. Where did that conversation take
6 A. That took place in her office with
7 Miss Stewart. That was an interim review.
8 Q. During the course of that meeting,
9 what did Miss Grant tell you?
10 A. Well, Miss Grant and Miss Stewart,
11 basically, said that I had done everything
12 incorrectly. I had done everything wrong.
13 Q. Miss Leventhal, I'm going to ask
14 you not to bunch Miss Grant and Miss Stewart
15 together but, best of your recollection, first,
16 tell me what you remember Miss Grant telling you
17 during that meeting. What do you remember
18 Miss Grant telling you during that meeting?
19 A. One thing she said, if you leave
20 now -- and she had said this previously -- if you
21 leave now, I'll give you a good reference. She
22 had said that to me in December of 1995. She
23 said that to me in January of 1996. She said
24 that to me in April of 1996 and also said that in
25 June of 1996. If you leave now, I'll give you a
2 good reference.
3 Q. When she said that to you in
4 June of 1996, what did you respond?
5 A. I said, I do not want to leave.
6 Q. Is that what you said on each of
7 the other occasions when she told you, if you
8 leave now, I will give you a good reference?
10 Q. Aside from telling you that if you
11 leave now, she would give you a good reference,
12 what else did she tell you during the course of
13 that meeting in June, 1996?
14 A. Basically, that I was doing
15 everything incorrectly. That was basically it.
16 Q. Did she provide you with any
17 examples of how you were doing everything
18 incorrectly?
19 A. Everything was very vague and
20 general, very vague, very general.
21 Q. At that time did you review any
22 written appraisal of your work performance?
23 A. I may have.
24 Q. Do you recall one way or the other?
25 A. I think I did. I think I did,
3 MR. FISHER: I will ask the court
4 reporter to mark as Defendant's Exhibit B a
5 document bearing Bates numbers US249
6 through US265.
7 [Whereupon, the documents Bates
8 stamped US249 through US265 were hereby
9 marked collectively as Defendant's
10 Exhibit B for identification, as of this
11 date, by the reporter.]
12 Q. (Handing.)
13 A. (Perusing.)
14 Q. Miss Leventhal, please take a
15 moment to review Exhibit B and after you've had a
16 chance to review it, please let me know whether
17 this is the Performance Appraisal Record that you
18 saw during the June, 1996 meeting with Miss Grant
19 and Miss Stewart.
20 A. (Perusing.)
21 MR. FISHER: Would you please read
22 back the last question.
23 [Whereupon, the requested portion
24 of the record was hereby read by the
25 reporter.]
3 Q. During the course of that meeting,
4 did you have occasion to actually read the
5 document?
6 A. I had occasion to glance at it. It
7 was a hurried meeting.
8 Q. Did you discuss the document with
9 Miss Grant and Miss Stewart?
11 Q. What did you tell them about the
12 document in that June, 1996 meeting?
13 A. Again, as I said before, they had
14 said -- I should say -- actually, it was
15 basically Miss Grant said that I had done
16 everything wrong, incorrectly.
17 Q. And what did you tell Miss Grant?
18 A. I said, I've been asking for
19 assistance. I have not received assistance. I
20 have asked for advice. The attitude -- her
21 attitude has been you should know how to do your
22 job and that was from the very beginning when I
23 first started in the fall of 1995.
24 Q. Do you remember anything else that
25 you told either Miss Grant or Miss Stewart during
2 that June, 1996 meeting?
3 A. Well, again -- I'm sorry, could you
4 read back to me what you just say or what I just
5 say, sorry.
6 [Whereupon, the requested portion
7 of the record was hereby read by the
8 reporter.]
9 A. I kept emphasizing that I need, you
10 know, assistance in terms of how to actually do
11 the job, and I don't feel -- I did not feel at
12 that time that I received the assistance that was
13 necessary, even to ask simple questions. It was
14 met with hostility and being a supervisory
15 applications' clerk in the clerical pool, my
16 people at that time would come to me with
17 questions, and I did not -- and I did not have
18 the information to answer their questions because
19 I had just started in the fall of 1995, and
20 that's why I was asking my supervisors for
21 assistance -- I should say my supervisor for
22 assistance.
23 Q. Who was your supervisor at the time
24 at June, 1996?
25 A. June, 1996, my first-line
2 supervisor was Agatha Stewart.
3 Q. Aside from what you've already
4 testified about, do you remember anything else
5 that you told Miss Grant or Miss Stewart during
6 the course of that meeting?
7 A. I'm sure I will later on, but I
8 don't right at this particular moment.
9 Q. If at any point later during this
10 session or at future sessions you remember
11 anything else about the conversations that you
12 had with Miss Grant or Miss Stewart in June,
13 1996, please, let me know.
15 Q. We can go on the record and make
16 sure that you supplement that answer.
18 MR. BRESSLER: Maybe you want to
19 leave a line. No? Okay.
20 Q. Did Miss Stewart tell you anything
21 during the course of that June, 1996 meeting?
22 A. Well, I had said to Miss Stewart -
23 during that specific meeting?
24 Q. Yes. Did Miss Stewart tell you
25 anything during the course of that meeting?
2 A. Miss Grant at that time did most of
3 the talking. Miss Stewart sat there, even though
4 she was my first-line supervisor, and said very
5 little.
6 Q. Do you remember anything that she
7 said, Miss Stewart?
8 A. Miss Grant?
9 Q. Miss Stewart.
10 A. Miss Stewart? She said -- I had
11 told her during the meeting that I need help, as
12 far as distributing the work, and I had been
13 telling her that throughout, you know, the time
14 she was my first-line supervisor. And she said,
15 you have to distribute it yourself. I said, I
16 need help. She said, well, you have to do this
17 yourself. Now, this is lifting 50-pound boxes,
18 which, you know, is very difficult for a person.
19 I mean, I'm a small person to begin with, even
20 without the MS.
21 Q. I'm asking you if you remember
22 anything else that Miss Stewart said during the
23 course of the meeting?
24 A. Not offhand.
25 Q. Did either Miss Stewart or
2 Miss Grant tell you during the course of that
3 June, 1996 meeting that you were not sufficiently
4 aware of the work being done by your
5 subordinates?
6 A. That had come up, yes, in April,
7 and I said that's why I keep asking you, you
8 know, questions as far as how the job should be
10 Q. In April, 1996, who told you that
11 you were not sufficiently aware of the work being
12 done by your subordinates?
13 A. I believe that was Miss Grant.
14 Q. During the course of the June, 1996
15 meeting, did either Miss Grant or Miss Stewart
16 tell you that you were not careful enough in
17 reviewing the work of your subordinates?
18 A. They may have.
19 Q. Do you remember one way or the
20 other?
21 A. No, I don't.
22 Q. At any point during your employment
23 with INS, do you remember anyone telling you that
24 you were not careful enough in reviewing the work
25 of your subordinates?
3 Q. Did you ever have occasion to read
4 the Performance Appraisal Record, which has been
5 marked as Defendant's Exhib-it B, in detail?
6 A. During my, I believe it was interim
7 review, which was in June of 1996, I had a chance
8 to look at it very quickly during that review.
9 Q. What about after that review; did
10 you ever have a chance to look at the Performance
11 Appraisal Record carefully?
12 A. That was my last day there. That
13 was, I believe, June 7th of 1996.
14 Q. What about after your employment at
15 the INS, did you ever have occasion to review
16 Defendant's Exhibit B carefully?
17 A. No, I did not. That's basically
18 when my exacerbation of multiple sclerosis
19 started. I wasn't able to do much of anything at
20 that point. It was incredibly difficult.
21 Q. Did Miss Grant or Miss Stewart ever
22 tell you that you did not know how to use the
23 AFACING system?
24 A. They may have and I -- yes, I
25 believe they did, and I asked them to show me how
2 to use it.
3 Q. What is the "AFACING system"?
4 A. I don't recall. Again, it's been
5 four years. I believe it's basically to check
6 individual files in the system.
7 Q. When did they tell you that you
8 were not familiar enough with the AFACING system?
9 A. That may have been in April, 1996.
10 Q. Who told you?
11 A. It may have been Miss Grant.
12 Q. Do you remember Miss Grant telling
13 you that?
14 A. Yes, I believe so.
15 Q. What did you tell her when she told
16 you that you were not familiar enough with the
17 use of the AFACING system?
18 A. I, in asking questions, I told her
19 I'm asking questions. I'm trying to find out so
20 1 will become more familiar with this, with the
21 AFACING system.
22 Q. Sitting here today, you don't
23 remember what that system does?
24 A. Well, again, I believe that what it
25 did was to track individual files so they would
2 know exactly where it was in the system.
3 Q. Do you remember having any problems
4 in using this system?
5 A. Not offhand, I don't.
6 Q. Did either Miss Grant or
7 Miss Stewart ever tell you that there were too
8 many misfiles?
9 A. They might have, yes.
10 Q. Do you remember one way or the
11 other whether they did?
12 A. Not really, no. Again, I'm sorry,
13 it's been four years. It's been a while and I
14 had, you know, a very serious exacerbation, which
15 I would say, in the past year come out of and
16 that had started in June of 1996.
17 Q. Do you know what a PWP is?
18 A. I believe -- well -- oh, PWP?
19 Performance work progress. I'm sorry, I don't
20 know offhand.
21 Q. Did either Miss Grant or
22 Miss Stewart ever tell you that you were not
23 issuing PWPs to your employees in a timely
24 manner?
25 A. I don't recall offhand. They may
2 have. I mean, please understand everything was
3 critical from really day one. It was a situation
4 where anything that I did, whether it was asking
5 for help, whether it was asking, you know, to be
6 shown something, it was basically the attitude of
7 you should know how to do this yourself.
8 Q. So do you remember that criticism
9 in particular; that you were not issuing PWPs to
10 your employees in a timely manner?
11 A. I believe that was Miss Grant who
12 said that and that may have been in April of
14 Q. When she told you that, what was
15 your response?
16 A. I said, please, show me how to do
17 it so I will be able to do it.
18 Q. Did either Miss Grant or
19 Miss Stewart ever tell you that the statistical
20 reports you compiled were not accurate?
21 MR. BRESSLER: This is at any
23 MR. FISHER: At any time.
24 Q. Did Miss Grant or Miss Stewart tell
25 you that?
2 A. I'm trying to find like a specific
3 day, not -- even a specific month now.
4 Q. Well, I'm not limiting it to a
5 particular month.
6 Over the course of your employment,
7 do you remember Miss Grant or Miss Stewart ever
8 telling you that the statistical reports that you
9 compiled were not accurate?
10 A. They may have, yes.
11 Q. Do you remember one way or the
13 A. Not offhand, I don't. Again, it's
14 been four years and after what I went through
15 because of, you know, the treatment that I
16 received at INS, you know, it's a wonder that I'm
17 sitting here.
18 Q. Did they address the issue of the
19 accuracy of your statistical reports in the June,
20 1996 meeting?
21 A. I don't know. I don't recall.
22 Q. Do you recall whether Miss Grant
23 addressed that issue in the April, 1996 meeting?
24 A. She may have. I'm sorry, I wish I
25 could be more specific but, again, I'm trying to
2 think back to each, you know, section of that
3 particular year.
4 Q. It's because I realize that it may
5 be difficult for you to remember some of these
6 things -
7 A. It is.
8 Q. -- that I'm not restricting it to a
9 particular month but asking you whether you have
10 any recollection of any conversation ever taking
11 place over the course of your entire employment
12 at INS?
13 A. Yeah. Yeah. Please, understand I
14 don't mean to interrupt you. I have brain damage
15 due to what they did to me in INS, in Section 245
16 specifically, so I'm try to think very hard to
17 each particular, you know, situation, trend,
18 whatever you want to call it.
19 Q. As supervisory applications' clerk,
20 did one of your responsibilities include issuing
21 checks to individuals for benefits?
22 A. Checks for benefits? There were
23 checks, I believe, for individual cases.
24 Q. What were those checks for?
25 A. I don't quite recall. I believe it
(212) 267-6868 (5 1 6) 608-2400
2 was to, basically -- I'm not quite sure -- to a
3 certain -- when the file came into the system.
4 Q. Did Miss Grant or Miss Stewart ever
5 tell you that those checks were not being issued
6 within the required 60 days?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. Are you aware that there was a
9 requirement that those checks you just mentioned
10 should be issued within 60 days?
11 A. There may be.
12 Q. Are you aware of such a
13 requirement?
15 Q. Do you recall any criticism
16 concerning the timeliness with which those checks
17 were issued?
18 A. Well, again, there was criticism
19 for each thing that I was responsible for from
20 the very beginning.
21 Q. And specifically, was there
22 criticism of this issue of the timely issuance of
23 checks?
24 A. I don't recall.
25 Q. Did your responsibilities include
2 maintaining a calendar for appointments that
3 individuals had with the INS?
4 A. Now, when you say "appointments,"
5 who would the appointments be with; with the
6 clerical pool, people in the clerical pool?
7 Because they did clerical work. It wasn't a
8 situation where they met, you know, immigrants
9 coming in.
10 Q. Did you maintain any kind of
11 calendar for immigrants who were coming in for
12 interviews that related to their status?
13 A. I don't recall.
14 Q. Did you ever prepare a written
15 response to the Performance Appraisal Record
16 which you saw in June of 1996?
17 A. I had just had at that time an
18 exacerbation of my multiple sclerosis so I,
19 unfortunately, was not able to do anything.
20 MR. FISHER: I'll ask the court
21 reporter to mark as Defendant's Exhibit C a
22 document produced by plaintiffs, which has
23 a capital V on the first page and is
24 numbered 1 through 2 and has three pages of
25 attachments.
2 [Whereupon, the 6-page document was
3 hereby marked collectively as Defendant's
4 Exhibit C for identification, as of this
5 date, by the reporter.]
6 Q. Miss Leventhal, please, review
7 Defendant's Exhibit C (handing) and let me know
8 whether you can identify this document?
9 A. (Complying.)
10 Q. Do you recognize this document?
12 Q. What is it?
13 A. This is a letter that I had my
14 husband, okay, devise because I was very, very
15 sick at the time and wasn't able to do so because
16 of my exacerbation of multiple sclerosis, and I
17 had him, basically, I told him what I wanted to
18 be said and I reviewed this, as sick as I was,
19 and I had this sent and this was sent to -- well,
20 this says Mr. Robert Brouillet, supervisory
21 management specialist.
22 Q. You reviewed this document before
23 it was sent out?
25 Q. You agreed with the contents of the
4 Q. Do you know whether it was sent to
5 Brenda Grant?
6 A. Yes, it was. I see here it says to
7 Brenda Grant, actingsection chief.
8 Q. If you look at the second page at
9 the bottom of the page, there's a distribution
12 Q. Do you know whether it was sent to
13 those individuals as well?
14 A. Yes .
15 Q. It was?
17 Q. Did you ever have any discussions
18 with anyone who this memo was sent to concerning
19 the contents of the memo?
20 A. I believe it was in -- I think it
21 was June 24, 1996. I had gone against doctor's
22 orders to Personnel to Robert Brouillet, the
23 supervisory Personnel management specialist,
24 because I had wanted to basically show that I
25 wasn't disappearing, I wasn't quitting, that I
2 wanted to make sure that this would go on the
3 record because subsequent to that Friday when I
4 was so incredibly ill, I had called in sick and
5 had spoken to Miss Grant and Miss Stewart, and my
6 husband also did as well since sometimes I was
9 Mr. Brouillet when you went to see him -
11 Q. -- about this response to your
12 Performance Appraisal Record?
14 Q. What was the substance of that
16 A. Well, I said I would like a
17 transfer to a different area, and I explained to
18 him that my supervisors -- supervisor -- well,
19 there were two supervisors, Brenda Grant and
20 Agatha Stewart, would not listen to anything I
21 had to say in terms of when I was calling in
22 sick, telling them that I was having the
23 exacerbation of my multiple sclerosis and he said
24 that there's nothing I can do. You'll to have
25 work that out with them.
2 I handed him information -- not
3 information, excuse me -- I had handed him, I
4 believe, a copy of this (indicating), and I said
5 I want this to go in my file. And he says, well,
6 I'll send this up to Vermont; and I remember when
7 I went into the room in his office, I was very
8 shaky, very sick, should not have been there, and
9 he didn't offer me a chair and I had to stand,
10 even though I was ready to collapse. My husband
11 and my doctor told me do not go, stay home. You
12 really should not even go out.
13 Q. Is there anything else that
14 Mr. Brouillet told you during the course of that
15 meeting?
16 A. Well, Mr. Brouillet did not want to
17 speak to me. Mr. Brouillet -
18 Q. I'm not asking you what he wanted
19 to do or did not want to do but whether there's
20 anything else that he told you during the course
21 of that meeting?
22 A. He says, there's nothing that I can
23 do about this. You'll have to take this up with
24 your supervisors. Again, I believe that was
25 June 24, 1996.
2 Q. If you look at the attachments to
3 Defendant's Exhibit C, can you identify those
4 attachments?
5 A. (Complying.) Well, one I see is a
6 memorandum, another one is an incident action
7 log-in sheet. The last one is proposed work plan
8 worksheet.
9 Q. What is the significance of having
10 attached these to your memo responding to your
11 Performance Appraisal Record?
12 A. These were forms that I had
13 designed to make -- to make, basically, the work
14 flow more easily in Section 245, and I wanted
15 this to be attached to this particular letter
16 because I wanted to make sure that, basically,
17 this was in my file, that people were aware of
18 what I was doing in terms of trying to create a
19 situation where, again, the work would flow more
20 smoothly and it would be a situation where
21 relations with the clerical pool would be more -
22 I'm trying to think of the correct word -
23 easier, simplified, whatever.
24 Q. You mentioned before that
25 Miss Grant would go around you and speak to
2 Miss Filbert about certain issues.
4 Q. Did there come a time when you
5 became aware of conversations that Miss Grant had
6 with Miss Filbert?
8 Q. How did you become aware of those
9 conversations?
10 A. I became aware of it because
11 Delores Filbert would come to me and she would
12 say to me Grant told me that you should do this.
13 Grant told me that you should do that. Grant
14 told me that we have to do this, that and the
15 other thing, whatever that particular action
16 would be.
17 Q. Can you remember now what any of
18 those particular actions were?
19 A. Well, not specific actions, but it
20 was just in general. Basically, Miss Grant was
21 treating me as if I was the lead clerk and
22 Delores Filbert as the supervisory applications`
23 clerk.
24 Q. So did Miss Grant criticize your
25 work performance in conversations with
2 Miss Filbert?
3 A. She may have. I believe she did,
4 actually, yes.
5 Q. Did you then learn of those
6 criticisms from Miss Filbert?
7 A. I could hear them talking.
8 Q. Did you actually overhear
11 Q. What did you overhear?
12 A. I overheard them talking about the
13 way I was doing the work, the way Miss Grant
14 wanted the work done, and basically, it was a
15 situation where I was sitting here (indicating)
16 and there was like a partition and Miss Filbert
17 was on the other side, and they would be talking
18 as if I was deaf, could not hear them, rather
19 than Miss Grant coming to me and saying,
20 Miss Leventhal, Mrs. Leventhal, Caryl Leventhal,
21 whatever, we need to do this, this, this and
22 this; but she would talk about me as if I was not
23 there rather than saying specifically, I need
24 this done, this done and this done.
25 Q. What else did you overhear from
2 those conversations?
3 A. Well, I made a note on that. Let's
4 see (perusing). Oh, yes, excuse me just a
5 second. Yes.
6 One thing -- and this may seem -
7 this seems strange to me and this happened on
8 several occasions.
9 Q. You're now telling me information
10 that you overheard -
12 Q. -- from conversations between
13 Miss Filbert and Miss Grant?
14 A. Yes, on several occasions.
15 They would be commenting on several
16 occasions that I was just too happy, whatever
17 that meant, rather than talking about the work,
18 specific things that had to be done. They were
19 chatting. They were gossiping that Leventhal was
20 just too happy, and that was from the very
21 beginning when I had started in -- well, I
22 started, of course, in November of 1995, but that
23 was basically starting, I would say, in
24 December of 1995.
25 Q. Say side from gossiping about you
2 and saying that you were too happy, what else did
3 you overhear?
4 A. Well, that was a major thing. They
5 were also saying that we -- well, excuse me,
6 Grant was saying we have to push the work out.
7 We have to do this. We have to do that.
8 Q. Miss Leventhal, to the extent you
9 can, instead of saying "we have to do this," "we
10 have to do that," try to remember what it is that
11 you heard them say.
12 A. I can't remember specifically at
13 this time. I might be able to later on.
14 Q. Is there some document that would
15 help you remember what it is that they said?
16 A. There might be, but I'm not aware
17 of it at this moment.
18 Q. Aside from saying that you have
19 to -
20 MR. FISHER: Strike that.
21 Q. Aside from saying that they have to
22 push the work out, is there anything else that
23 you overheard them saying, aside from those
24 matters that you've already testified about?
25 A. Well, Grant didn't seem to be
2 particularly concerned about the checks being
3 done properly.
4 Q. Did you overhear Miss Grant say
5 that she was not particularly concerned about the
6 checks being done properly?
7 A. I heard her say that she just
8 wanted the work processed more quickly.
9 Q. Aside from her saying that she
10 wanted the work processed more quickly and aside
11 from those other matters about which you have
12 already testified, do you remember anything else
13 that you overheard Miss Grant tell Miss Filbert
14 or Miss Filbert tell Miss Grant?
15 A. At this point, I can't remember;
16 but again, I might remember later on.
17 Q. Is there something that would help
18 you remember?
19 A. There might be. I don't know.
20 Q. Is it your contention that the INS
21 discriminated on you on account of your race?
22 A. Now, when you say the INS, who
23 specifically in INS?
24 Q. I'll ask you that in a moment.
2 Q. But is it your contention that the
3 Immigration and Naturalization Service, your
4 employer, during a certain period from 1995 to
5 1996 discriminated against you on account of your
6 race?
8 Q. Who are the individuals at INS who
9 you believe discriminated against you on account
10 of your race?
11 A. Brenda Grant, Agatha Stewart who,
12 although she is white -- I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
13 Q. Is there anyone else at INS who
14 discriminated against you on account of your
15 race?
16 A. Brenda Grant, Agatha Stewart. That
17 was enough right there.
18 Q. Do you contend that Robert
19 Brouillet discriminated against you on account of
20 your race?
21 A. He may have, yes.
22 Q. Anyone else who you can think of
23 right now who discriminated against you at INS?
24 A. Gwynne MacPherson may have.
25 Q. Anyone else you can think of right
3 A. People that I had direct dealing
4 with? Are you referring to people that I had
5 direct -
6 Q. I'm asking you whether anyone else
7 at INS discriminated against you in any way on
8 account of your race?
9 MR. BRESSLER: I'm going to object
10 to the form. Go.
11 A. The -- I've forgotten his title,
12 Edward McElroy. He may have as well. In fact, I
13 think he probably did because I was the first
14 white person in that position in decades.
15 Q. Anyone else you can think of?
16 A. In April of 1996, there were two
17 individuals that came from Washington, D.C.: I
18 believe her name was Cahill, Miss Cahill and a -
19 another individual. The interesting thing was
20 that -
21 Q. Miss Cahill and another individual?
22 A. Yes, another individual. Eric
23 Minkoff was his name.
24 Q. They discriminated against you on
25 account of your race?
2 A. They may have.
3 MR. BRESSLER: Objection to form.
4 Q. Anyone else you can think of?
5 A. At this point, I can't, but there
6 may be others that I'll think of later on.
7 Q. Again, if you think of any other
8 individuals at INS who discriminated against you
9 on account of your race, please, let me know so
10 that we can supplement the record.
12 Q. How is it that Miss Cahill and
13 Mr. Minkoff may have discriminated against you on
14 account of your race?
15 MR. BRESSLER: General objection to
16 the use of discrimination in this matter.
17 I won't object to every specific thing.
18 MR. FISHER: What's your
19 objection?
20 MR. BRESSLER: Well, because
21 discrimination is a legal term, and it may
22 have different meanings and different
23 context and it's somewhat asking for a
24 legal conclusion, and I don't know, you
25 know, legally, an individual can't
2 discriminate in general anyway. I know
3 you're about to ask a lot of questions
4 about discrimination, so just note my
5 objection to those questions. Proceed.
7 Q. Miss Leventhal, what is your race?
8 A. White, Caucasian.
9 Q. Do you believe that Miss Cahill or
10 Mr. Minkoff treated you differently because you
11 were white?
13 Q. How did they treat you differently?
14 A. They treated me differently in that
15 they made a trip from Washington, D.C. to
16 interview me, I believe it was in April -- March,
17 excuse me, of 1996 asking questions about, quote,
18 unquote, how I'm doing in my new position.
19 This is for -- my position at that
20 time -- well, my position during the whole time I
21 was at INS, was of a Grade VI supervisory
22 applications' clerk, which is very low level in
23 the total scheme of things.
24 And why they would come to visit me
25 and why they would ask me questions about how I'm
2 doing and basically, asking questions about the
3 situation in Section 245 and how I was getting
4 along with everyone and so on seemed to be very,
5 very unusual.
6 Q. During this trip that they made
7 from Washington, D.C., did they ask anyone else
8 at INS questions about their jobs?
10 Q. Do you know what the purpose of
11 their trip was?
12 A. As I said, they were asking these
13 vague questions.
14 Q. Do you believe that the purpose of
15 their trip was to ask you questions about your
16 job?
17 A. No, not really. They wanted to see
18 why I was there because, again, as I have said
19 before, I was the first white person in that
20 position in 20 something years and the first
21 person in that position until a very long period
22 of time, several decades, who practices the
23 Jewish religion.
24 Q. I'm asking you though first with
25 respect to your race. You believe that they
2 treated you differently by asking you all of
3 these questions about your job because you're
4 white?
6 Q. Again, to the best of your
7 recollection, what are these questions that they
8 asked you?
9 A. They asked -- well, one thing I
10 remember them asking me is how long it had taken
11 me to come onboard, meaning how long did it take
12 me to start because I had gotten an original
13 offer to start at INS in May of 1995, and it was
14 a situation where Robert Brouillet had called and
15 said, you can't start. I finally started, as you
16 know, in November -- excuse me, late October of
17 1995.
18 Q. Aside from asking you how long it
19 took you to come onboard, did they ask you
20 anything else?
21 A. They asked me basically how I'm
22 getting along with the people there, and I really
23 felt that I was at that time in a situation where
24 I may have been -- what's the word I'm looking
25 for -- being set up because I had been fired from
2 my previous position, okay, because of the
3 situation with INS giving me a premature offer.
4 That was Mr. Robert Brouillet. And rather than
5 saying -- rather than saying, well, I'm having a
6 problem with my supervisors, my supervisor is
7 creating a situation where it's making it very
8 difficult for me to do my job to the best of my
9 ability, okay, I said, well, everything is going
10 fine because I did not want to be fired because I
11 knew that if I was fired a second time, for a
12 person with multiple sclerosis to begin with,
13 it's difficult to get another position. I've
14 been very open about having multiple sclerosis,
15 very open about it.
Note: Not spoken of in this deposition because she was not asked, Caryl did tell the two USDOJ agents from Washington DC (Minkoff and Cahill) that Green Card applications were being pushed through without proper processing integrity. She informed them that people were being approved for Green Cards after dubious background checks. Caryl also informed the US Department of Justice Investigators from Washington DC that employees spent much of their work day "disappearing" from their work posts and could be seen speaking with strangers in hallways. She informed them that employees in INS Section 245 had been arrested for the sale of Green Cards and she believed that this is practice was widespread. Finally, she informed them that INS Section 245 was racially skewed and not representative of the general population, leading to a cliquish attitude that fostered indolence and corruption. As mentioned above and in her deposition, Caryl did not criticize her First and later Second Line supervisor, Brenda Grant. Ms. Leventhal was fearful of losing her job, although Caryl always suspected that Ms. Grant knew what was going on because the problems were so obvious.
16 Q. Did they ask you anything else
17 during that meeting in 1996?
19 Q. Do you remember anything else?
20 A. I probably, unfortunately, will
21 remember it later. I don't at this point.
22 Q. Is there some document that you
23 could look at that would help you remember what
24 it is that they asked you?
25 A. Again, there may be, but I'm not
2 aware of it at this time.
3 Q. You said that you probably will
4 remember it later. What is it that makes you
5 believe that you will probably remember something
6 later about this conversation?
7 A. I'm sorry, I don't mean to
8 interrupt you.
9 [Whereupon, the requested portion
10 of the record was hereby read by the
11 reporter.]
12 A. For example, if a piece of paper is
13 put in front of me that I haven't seen in a
14 period of time, I do remember -- I may remember
15 things that transpired relating to that
16 particular document such as these (indicating),
17 as an example.
18 Q. Are you aware of any pieces of
19 paper that relate to the questions that
20 Mr. Minkoff and Miss Cahill asked you in April,
21 1996?
22 A. I'm not at this time.
23 Q. These questions that they asked
24 you, is it your contention that they asked you
25 these questions because you're white?
2 A. They asked me -- it's my contention
3 that they asked me these questions because I was
4 the first white person in that position in over
5 twenty years.
6 Q. Did they also direct these
7 questions to you because you practiced Judaism?
8 A. They may have, yes, and I was very
9 upfront about that as well.
10 Q. Did they also direct these
11 questions to you because of your disability?
12 A. I told them, whether they were
13 aware of the disability or not, that I have
14 multiple sclerosis, and they didn't seem
15 surprised at all.
16 Q. Did you have any future dealings
17 with Miss Cahill or Mr. Minkoff?
18 A. I believe -- I believe I may have
19 through my husband's assistance sent an e-mail to
20 Eric Minkoff.
21 Q. Do you remember the substance of
22 the e-mail?
23 A. I don't offhand. I believe that it
24 was basically describing what was going on in
25 terms of the treatment that I was receiving from
2 my supervisor.
3 Q. Did you get a response from -
5 Q. -- Mr. Minkoff?
6 A. I did not. He gave me -- I'm
7 sorry, he gave me his card. Mary Cahill gave me
8 her card and said if you have any problems or
9 questions, contact us. They did not contact me.
10 Q. After April, 1996, you did not hear
11 anything further from Miss Cahill or Mr. Minkoff?
12 A. Nothing.
13 Q. You testified that Miss MacPherson
14 may have discriminated against you because of
15 your race. What are the facts on which you base
16 that contention?
17 A. Miss MacPherson is married to an
18 African American.
19 Q. Is Miss MacPherson white?
20 A. Yes, she is.
21 (Continuing) And she has an African
22 American child. I remember showing her
23 photographs -- people -- basically, everyone was
24 showing off, you know, pictures of their
25 children, their husbands or family and I showed
2 them a picture of my husband and I believe my
3 stepson, and I remember how Miss MacPherson
4 looked at it and sneered. She seemed almost
5 disgusted.
6 Q. When you say she sneered, did she
7 make a sound or are you describing a facial
8 expression?
9 A. A facial expression. It was my
10 husband in his military uniform. Now, I
11 remember. He was wearing his military uniform.
12 I said, this is my husband. He is a lieutenant
13 colonel in the New York Guard. I was very proud
14 of him and still. I showed her the picture and
15 she just looked at it with contempt.
16 Q. Are there other facts which you
17 base your contention -- on which you base your
18 contention that Miss MacPherson discriminated
19 against you on account of your race?
20 A. Specific conversations, things that
21 she may have said?
22 Q. Any facts whatsoever.
23 A. Basically, an attitude. An
24 attitude, especially when she heard my last name,
25 Leventhal. She was very comtemptuous of that.
2 Q. What did she say?
3 A. She just had a look on her face
4 like, oh, this is disgusting. That's how I
5 interpreted it.
6 Q. Aside from looks on her face that
7 you interpreted as discriminatory, did she ever
8 say anything to you that in any way demonstrated
9 that she was treating you differently because you
10 are white?
11 A. Well, for me at that time, that was
12 enough. I didn't hear her. She may have said
13 something, but I didn't hear it.
14 Q. You never heard her say anything?
15 A. She didn't say anything to me
16 directly.
17 Q. She never said anything to you
18 directly?
20 Q. You testified that Mr. McElroy
21 probably discriminated against you on account of
22 your race.
23 What are the facts on which you
24 base your contention that Mr. McElroy probably
25 discriminated against you on account of your
3 A. Well, again, I was the first
4 supervisory applications' clerk in that position
5 who was white for a period of over 20 years; and
6 I never saw him. He never saw me.
7 Q. Did Mr. McElroy have some role in
8 hiring you?
9 A. No, he did not.
10 Q. So how is it that Mr. McElroy
11 discriminated against you on account of your
13 A. I sent him letters that my husband
14 wrote for me after my exacerbation in June, 1996,
15 and he ignored them and, basically, ignored them
16 completely. I was basically asking him for
17 assistance.
18 Q. Aside from ignoring your letters,
19 did Mr. McElroy do anything else that you contend
20 discriminated against you on account of your
21 race?
22 A. The very fact that he did not
23 respond to my letters, I was deathly ill, having
24 an exacerbation of multiple sclerosis. And then
25 he wrote a letter of termination in August of
2 1996 without following up on any of the letters I
3 had sent to him. I mean, I'll ask a question, a
4 rhetorical question: What am I to conclude?
5 Q. Did you ever meet with Mr. McElroy?
7 Q. Do you know what his race is?
8 A. He's white, to my knowledge. I
9 believe he's white.
10 Q. Are there other facts on which you
11 base your contention that Mr. McElroy
12 discriminated against you because you are white,
13 aside from those to which you have already
14 testified?
15 A. Not at this moment. I can't think
16 of anything specifically -- I should say
17 specific.
18 Q. Do you contend that Mr. McElroy
19 discriminated against you because of your
20 disability?
21 A. He may have.
22 Q. What are the facts on which you
23 base your contention that Mr. McElroy may have
24 discriminated against you on account of your
25 disability?
2 A. He seemed to be very -- by not
3 answering any of my letters and the very fact
4 that I understand that he also has multiple
5 sclerosis himself, okay, he just did not respond,
6 you know, through mail. I mean, no response
7 whatsoever.
8 Q. Aside from his failure to respond
9 to your letters, are there other facts on which
10 you base your contention that Mr. McElroy may
11 have discriminated against you because of your
12 disability?
13 A. The very fact that he wrote a
14 letter of termination, which I believe was
15 August 8th, 1996, I had not even gotten my last
16 review that was due, I believe, in September,
17 September of 1996. The fact that he quickly -
18 well, quickly -- that he wrote the letter of
19 termination and sent it and, basically, saying in
20 the letter that I showed poor dedication, poor
21 dedication, I mean, this is something that I
22 received when I was still, you know, not even
23 recovering, still basically in the midst of my
24 exacerbation. I mean, I found that to be
25 incredibly devastating.
2 Q. Are there other facts on which you
3 base your contention that Mr. McElroy
4 discriminated against you because of your
5 disability?
6 A. That's about it for now.
7 Q. Do you also contend that
8 Mr. McElroy discriminated against you because you
9 practiced Judaism?
10 A. He may have.
11 Q. What are the facts on which you
12 base that contention?
13 A. Well, again, to my knowledge, I was
14 the first Jewish person who practices Judaism in
15 that position in several decades.
16 Q. How does that fact contribute to
17 your understanding that Mr. McElroy may have
18 discriminated against you because you're Jewish?
19 A. The very fact that he sent the
20 letter of termination before I even had my final
21 review when I was home deathly ill under doctor's
22 orders not to go back, not to basically subject
23 myself to further, you know, further stress,
24 torture, the whole thing, that occurs -- that
25 occurred to me.
2 Q. When did you begin practicing
3 Judaism?
4 A. Well, I've never officially
5 converted; however, however, I had been
6 practicing Judaism -- really reformed
7 Judaism -- since, I would say, I would say 1985,
8 '86.
9 Q. What aspects of Judaism do you
10 observe?
11 A. Well, I observe not strictly but to
12 a large extent the dietary laws, okay. We have a
13 Jewish home. It's a situation where we observe
14 the major Jewish holidays: Rosh Hashanah,Yom
15 Kippur, and basically, although not born Jewish,
16 I pride myself on having a Jewish consciousness
17 and, of course, we belong to a synagogue, which
18 is very comforting, which I enjoy very much.
19 Q. What are the facts on which you
20 base your contention that Mr. Brouillet
21 discriminated against you on account of your
22 race?
23 A. Well, again, I was the first
24 Caucasian in this position in over 20 years, and
25 it was very odd that I would not get the same
2 kind of treatment from Mr. Brouillet when I went
3 to him with a problem that could not be resolved
4 through my supervisors, you know, that -- I mean,
5 again, this is conjecture on my part.
6 Q. Mr. Brouillet treated you
7 differently than he treated nonwhites?
9 Q. When did Mr. Brouillet treat you
10 differently than he treated nonwhites?
11 A. Well, he treated me differently
12 from the very beginning. The offer was made -
13 excuse me, the initial offer was made, I believe,
14 in May of 1995; and then he rescinded the offer
15 three weeks later after I had given notice to my
16 current employer at that time.
17 Q. It's your view that he rescinded
18 that offer because you're white?
19 A. He told me at that time -- yes -
20 he told me at that time that the reason I could
21 not start on the date that we had agreed upon in
22 June of 1995 was because there was a list, and
23 people on the list were ahead of me.
24 Q. Aside from his reference to the
25 list, are there other facts on which you base
2 your contention that Mr. Brouillet discriminated
3 against you in the hiring process on account of
4 your race?
5 A. Well, the very fact that he
6 mentioned there being a list after he had made
7 the offer, and this was three weeks after he had
8 made the offer.
9 Q. The question is: Aside from the
10 list, are there other facts on which you base
11 your belief that Mr. Brouillet discriminated
12 against you on account of your race, aside from
13 the list?
14 A. Okay. Yes. When I went to visit
15 him in the summer -- actually, it was June 24th,
16 I believe, of 1996 -- and explained to him what
17 was going on in terms of Brenda Grant, Agatha
18 Stewart and, basically, I would like a transfer
19 out of the area and, basically, I brought him,
20 you know, various documents that I wanted put in
21 my file. He treated me very differently than I
22 would assume he would treat other employees.
23 Q. Do you have any examples of
24 instances in which Mr. Brouillet treated
25 nonwhites better than he treated you?
2 A. Well, again, these are
4 MR. BRESSLER: I object to the form
5 of the question.
6 Q. Do you have any examples of
7 instances where Mr. Brouillet treated you
8 differently than he treated nonwhites?
9 A. For example, when I went to visit
10 him June 24th of 1996, I was very shaky, very
11 sick. I was really still having the exacerbation
12 of multiple sclerosis, and it was a situation
13 where he wouldn't even offer me a chair to sit
15 Q. Any other facts?
16 A. He would not return phone calls a
17 year before when he had first offered the
18 position over the phone and then he had called to
19 say, you can't start because there are other
20 people on the list. I would call him because I
21 had just given notice to my former employer. I
22 would call him. He would not take the calls; and
23 then he finally took a few -- he took, I think,
24 one call from me. He was very abrupt. He says,
25 you'll just have to sit tight. You'll have to
2 sit tight because there's a list and you're
3 seventh on the list, and other people have to go
4 up the chain on the list.
5 Q. Do you contend that Mr. Brouillet
6 also discriminated against you on account of your
7 disability?
8 A. I don't know. He may have.
9 Q. Do you contend that Mr. Brouillet
10 discriminated against you because you practiced
11 Judaism?
12 A. He may have. I don't know.
13 Q. What are the facts on which you
14 base your belief that Miss Stewart discriminated
15 against you because you're white?
16 A. Miss Stewart is in the African
17 American community, although she is white. She
18 is married to an African American. She has
19 African American children; and it was a pervasive
20 feeling. In Section 245 you're either one of
21 them or you're not one of them -- you're one of
22 us or you're not one of us.
23 Q. Who is "us"?
24 A. Us was at that time was Agatha
25 Stewart, Brenda Grant and, basically, the
2 clerical pool who was predominantly African
3 American.
4 Q. Aside from the fact that
5 Miss Stewart is married to an African American,
6 are there other facts on which you base your
7 belief that Miss Stewart discriminated against
8 you on account of your race?
9 A. Specific things that she may have
10 said to me?
11 Q. That she may have said or she may
12 have done or that you may have otherwise become
13 aware of.
14 A. Well, again, it was a general
15 attitude. You're not like us. You're not one of
16 us.
17 Q. When you say "you're
18 you're not one of us," did she say that to you?
19 A. I overheard her and Grant saying,
20 she's not like us and she's not one of us.
21 Q. When did you overhear that?
22 A. That may have been in January,
23 February of 1996.
24 Q. Aside from that overheard
25 conversation, are there other facts on which you
2 base your contention that Miss Stewart
3 discriminated against you because you're white?
4 A. I can't think of anything
5 specifically.
6 Q. Do you also contend that
7 Miss Stewart discriminated against you because
8 you practice Judaism?
9 A. I believe she may have.
10 Q. What are the facts on which you
11 base that belief?
12 A. I remember that -- okay. I was the
13 supervisory applications' clerk for Section 245.
14 I remember around, I believe, it may have been
15 March, April of 1996. I came in. I don't
16 remember exactly when it fell but there were like
17 the various -- prior to Easter -- various
18 holidays like Holy Thursday, that type of thing,
19 and no one was there. When I say no one, I mean
20 Stewart wasn't there. I think Grant -
21 Miss Grant had stayed out, okay, and it was
22 basically a situation where they were out for
23 religious holidays. I was not informed that they
24 were going to be out, you know. So I walked in.
25 No one was there. When I say no one, I mean -
2 Q. Miss Stewart and Miss Grant were
3 not there?
4 A. Exactly. Exactly.
5 So basically, if I had had -- if
6 they had just told me we are not going to be here
7 because we are going to be off for whatever,
8 fine, but no one told me. I was really kept out
9 of the loop, you know.
10 Also, too, Delores Filbert wasout
11 that day as well. Again, I wasn't told that she
12 was going to be out.
13 Q. Aside from what you've already
14 testified to, are there other facts on which you
15 base your belief that Miss Stewart discriminated
16 against you because you practiced Judaism?
17 A. Okay. I was going to talk about
18 Brenda Grant, but you're talking about Stewart.
19 Q. Right.
21 Q. Any other facts on which you base
22 your belief that Miss Stewart discriminated
23 against you because you practice Judaism?
24 A. I can't think of anything at this
25 point, but I may later on.
2 Q. Those memos, the documents that
3 you're referring to to assist you during the
4 deposition --
6 Q. -- who prepared those?
8 Q. Did someone assist you in preparing
10 A. _ _
11 Q. Do you contend that Miss Stewart
12 discriminated against you on account of your
13 disability?
15 Q. What are the facts on which you
16 base your belief that Miss Stewart discriminated
17 against you because of your disability?
18 A. Miss Stewart -- when I told
19 Miss Stewart on several occasions that it was
20 very difficult, if next to impossible, for me to
21 lift the heavy 50-pound, 40-pound boxes of files
22 to distribute the work to the clerical pool, she
23 says, we all have to do this. I says, I can't.
24 I can't lift these boxes. She says, well, we
25 have to do it. We have to get the work out. I
2 says, but I can't do it. This is killing me. I
3 really need help with this. I pleaded with her
4 for some assistance.
5 Q. At the time that you raised these
6 issues with Miss Stewart, did she know that you
7 had multiple sclerosis?
8 A. Yes. Yes, she did.
9 Q. When did you first tell
10 Miss Stewart that you had multiple sclerosis?
11 A. I believe it was in January of
13 Q. Do you remember exactly what it is
14 that you told Miss Stewart in January, 1996?
15 A. I don't remember the specific
16 conversation, but I remember at that time she
17 became my first-line supervisor, and we were
18 having a conversation. I said, I have multiple
19 sclerosis.
20 Q. Do you remember anything else about
21 that conversation?
22 A. We may have been talking about -
23 we probably were talking about basically the
24 requirements of the position.
25 Q. Do you remember anything else about
2 the conversation?
3 A. Not offhand.
4 Q. Do you remember what she said to
5 you when you told her that you had multiple
6 sclerosis?
7 A. She just looked at me blankly.
8 Q. On those occasions when you told
9 her that you were having trouble lifting the
10 files, did you tell her that that trouble was
11 related to your multiple sclerosis?
12 A. I told her these are heavy boxes.
13 I have multiple sclerosis. This is the worst
14 possible thing for a person with multiple
15 sclerosis to have to do, to be asked to do. And
16 she says, well, we all have to do it.
17 Q. Aside from what you've already
18 testified about, are there other facts on which
19 you base your belief that Miss Stewart
20 discriminated against you because of your
21 disability?
22 A. Not that I can think of. The fact
23 that -- well, okay, this is just basically -- I
24 don't know whether this is -- this is just a
25 supposition -- is it supposition?
2 Q. It relates to the basis for your
3 belief that Miss Stewart discriminated against
4 you because of your disability?
6 Q. Please, tell me what it is.
7 A. Yeah. I just got the general
8 feeling from her that it was like, well, too
9 bad. I have to do it. Everyone has to do it.
10 You have to do it even though it's not actually
11 in the job description.
12 Q. With respect to the carrying of
13 heavy boxes, did you propose any solutions that
14 would assist you in doing your job?
15 A. I asked my people in the clerical
16 pool to assist me; and their response was, this
17 is not my job.
18 Q. Did you ever identify any changes
19 that Miss Stewart could make in the nature of
20 your job that would help you with some of the
21 heavy lifting?
22 A. Miss Stewart was not interested in
23 listening to anything I had to say about the
24 position.
25 Q. Whether or not she was interested-
in listening, A.
Q A assist me to this alone. Miss Grant.
Q. Aside from asking Miss Stewart for
someone to assist you, did you identify other
ways that she could assist in making your job
more doable?
A. That would be related to?
Q. To your disability.
A. To my disability? Well, that was
the basic thing, I believe; that I just needed
someone to help me lifting the boxes because they
were bringing them up on the elevator from
different floors where they had them stored.
MR. FISHER: Would you like to take a
short break? We've been going for about an hour and a half.
MR. BRESSLER: Sure.
THE WITNESS: Yes. I think I need a
C.B. Leventhal did you ever say anything to her? I may have. I think I did. What
do you remember saying? I need help. I need someone to distribute these files. I
can't do I said that to both Miss Stewart and
2 [Whereupon, after a short recess
3 was taken, the following was had:]
4 [Whereupon, the requested portion
5 of the record was hereby read by the
6 reporter.]
7 Q. What are the facts on which you
8 base your contention that Miss Grant
9 discriminated against you because you're white?
10 A. (Perusing.) Well, again, general
11 feeling -- a general attitude of hostility. I
12 was really made to feel like an intruder, okay,
13 and she acted like I was different.
14 Q. How did she make you feel like an
15 intruder?
16 A. Well, I overheard her talking, as I
17 had mentioned before, to the lead clerk, Delores
18 Filbert, okay. I also overheard her talking
19 to -- I'm sorry, you were going to say
21 Q. No, please, finish your answer.
22 A. Basically, in that particular area,
23 it was primarily African Americans primarily;
24 however, there were Caucasian white people who
25 were in the African American community because of
2 marriage, because of, you know, having African
3 American children, that type of thing, and I was
4 definitely made to feel that I did not belong,
5 especially -- I'm sorry.
6 Q. That's okay. Have you completed
7 your answer?
8 A. Yes, I have. I'm sorry.
9 Q. Who were the white people who, in
10 your view, were part of the African American
11 community?
12 A. Agatha Stewart, Gwynne MacPherson,
13 definitely those two.
14 Q. In your view, those two were part
15 of the African American community because they
16 were married to African Americans?
18 Q. Are there other whites who were in
19 Section 245?
20 A. There were two that I can think of.
21 Q. Who were they?
22 A. That was again, the lead clerk,
23 Delores Filbert, and there was an older man named
24 Mel Wasserman.
25 Q. In your view, was Miss Filbert part
2 of the African American community?
3 A. She basically was not part of the
4 African American community through marriage, but
5 it was a situation where to keep her position in
6 INS, she really created a situation where she
7 would go along with anything that Grant, Brenda
8 Grant, wanted. As I've said before I think in
9 the last deposition, she was basically Brenda
10 Grant's toady and rather than Brenda Grant coming
11 to me first as the supervisory applications'
12 clerk, she would go to Delores Filbert.
13 Q. Was Mel Wasserman part of the
14 African American community?
15 A. No, he was not.
16 Q. Is he a white man?
17 A. Yes, he is.
18 Q. Was he discriminated against?
19 A. He may have been.
20 Q. How may he have been discriminated
21 against?
22 A. Basically, through the actions of
23 Brenda Grant.
24 Q. Are you aware of any actions that
25 Miss Grant took that were discriminatory towards
2 Mr. Wasserman?
3 A. Yeah. I'm getting ahead of
4 myself. I'm sorry. Blurting again.
5 I remember one occasion -- I don't
6 remember specifically when it was -- when Brenda
7 Grant was laughing at Mel Wasserman. Mel
8 Wasserman was the shop steward because the clerks
9 in Section 245 could belong to the union, and he
10 was a shop steward and Mel Wasserman basically
11 could do -- he had been there for many years, and
12 from what I observed, he was a good worker, but
13 again I had crossed swords with him many times
14 because he had a very -- well, you're going to do
15 it my way or no way. That was just his
16 personality, which we are all entitled to have,
17 but I did see -- I did see Brenda Grant laughing
18 at Mel Wasserman, you know, making little
19 comments about Mel Wasserman.
20 Q. Were these directly to
21 Mr. Wasserman?
22 A. Just in general.
23 Q. Were they directly to him or was
24 she laughing about him to someone else?
25 A. She was just laughing in general,
2 standing in the middle of the floor laughing at
3 Mel Wasserman.
4 Q. Did Mr. Wasserman take offense?
5 A. He may have.
6 Q. Do you know whether he took
7 offense?
8 A. If he heard it, he would have.
9 Q. You don't know whether or not he
10 heard it?
11 A. I think he did.
12 Q. Did he say anything?
13 A. I could tell from his facial
14 expression that he wasn't happy.
15 Q. But did he say anything?
16 A. Did he say anything to me
17 directly?
18 Q. Did you hear him say anything when
19 Miss Grant was laughing at him?
20 A. I may have. I don't remember
21 specifically what.
22 Q. Did Miss Grant's laughing at him
23 have something to do with him being white?
24 A. I believe so, yes.
25 Q. What's the basis for that belief
2 A. The fact that she did not laugh at
3 people who happened to be African American. I
4 never saw her laugh at an African American.
5 Q. Did she say anything or was she
6 just laughing at Mr. Wasserman?
7 A. She was laughing at his actions.
8 She was laughing at things that he had said.
9 Q. Did she say anything or did she
10 just laugh?
11 A. She may have said things. I don't
12 recall exactly what they were, however.
13 Q. Are there any other ways in which
14 Miss Grant made you feel like an intruder or made
15 you feel different from other people because you
16 are white?
17 A. Whenever I would, say for example,
18 criticize the work of an African American clerk,
19 I remember one instance with one clerk, a David
20 Issacs, who happened to be African American, and
21 I had criticized his work, and she -- and I said,
22 look, you have to do this, this, this is not
23 acceptable. Immediately, he ran to Brenda
24 Grant. I saw them talking together and laughing
25 and looking in my direction.
2 Oftentimes, when I would criticize,
3 you know, the work of an African American, they
4 would run to Brenda Grant. They would go to
5 Brenda Grant. She would speak with them in her
6 office, and then she would come running out and
7 she would start yelling at me in the middle of
8 the floor, you know, the floor, the Section 245,
9 you know, why did you tell him this. Why did you
10 tell him that.
11 Q. In particular, when you criticized
12 Mr. Issacs and he ran to Miss Grant, did she then
13 come out to the floor and criticize you publicly?
15 Q. What did she say?
16 A. I don't remember specifically what
17 she said, but she said -- I'm just paraphrasing
18 here -- David Issacs said you did this, this and
19 this. You should not do that, that and that.
20 Anytime I would, as a supervisor, supervisory
21 applications' clerk, would bring to one of the
22 clerks, bring to their attention something that
23 they had done or something that they needed to
24 do, oftentimes they would run into her office;
25 and I remember one time where David Issacs, it
2 was a situation where he had come in. I believe
3 he was to come in at 6:30 in the morning and he
4 was to complete a file of work, okay. I came
5 in. He had not completed it, and I said why
6 hasn't this been done. He immediately ran to
7 Brenda Grant and then she came out and she
8 started yelling at me.
9 Q. When she would yell at you, did she
10 say anything about you being white?
11 A. She didn't say anything.
12 Q. Did she say anything about your
13 being disabled?
14 A. She didn't say anything.
15 Q. Did she say anything about your
16 practicing Judaism?
17 A. She didn't say anything that I can
18 recall at this time.
19 Q. Is it possible that she did say
20 something relating to your having been white,
21 disabled or Jewish and you're not remembering it
22 right now?
23 A. That's possible.
24 Q. Is there some document that you're
25 aware of that would help you remember whether she
2 said anything that related to you're being white,
3 Jewish or disabled?
4 A. (Perusing.) This is why I'm looking
5 at my notes here. Okay. If you could give me a
6 second, please (perusing).
7 As far as a specific thing that was
8 said about my being white and the other
9 individuals being African American, nothing
10 specific was said within earshot.
11 Q. Okay. Did you ever criticize a
12 white clerical employee in connection with their
13 work?
15 Q. Who was that?
16 A. As far as -- I remember one
17 incident with a -- I'm trying to remember her
18 name. It wasn't even her work. She wanted to
19 transfer out of the area. Her name was Helen -
20 I'm trying to remember her last name -- and she
21 had wanted to be transferred out of the area.
22 She had only been, to my recollection, in the
23 area for something like three to six months; and
24 I said, you know, she wanted a recommendation
25 from me to be transferred out and I said, I
2 haven't been here long enough to be able to
3 review your work and, basically, see the pattern
4 of your employment in this section, you know, so
5 I can't really do that now.
6 Q. Did this employee, Helen, complain
7 to Brenda Grant that -
8 A. I believe she may have.
12 Q. That you had criticized her?
13 A. Well, basically, Ricky -
14 R I C K Y, that was her last name -- she wanted
15 to be transferred out of the area, and I said I
16 haven't -- you haven't been in the area. You
17 haven't been in the section long enough, and I
18 haven't been your supervisor long enough to okay
20 Q. Did Miss Ricky complain to
21 Miss Grant that you had criticized her?
22 A. I believe she did.
23 Q. Did Miss Grant say anything to you
24 after Miss Ricky complained to her?
25 A. Brenda Grant at that time had -- I
2 believe it was at that time -- had told me that
3 Helen Ricky -- oh, this was also when Helen Ricky
4 was not able to work overtime on Saturdays. That
5 was another incident with Helen Ricky. And, you
6 know, the idea was to get more work done on, you
7 know, overtime, which was on Saturday, and Helen
8 Ricky brought in a doctor's note because the idea
9 was to get as much work done as possible. Brenda
10 Grant showed me in her desk drawer a file where
11 she had a note from Helen Ricky's doctor saying
12 that she had had a colostomy and she was not able
13 to work overtime and she was laughing and she
14 thought that was very funny that Helen Ricky had
15 had a colostomy. Now, Helen Ricky did not tell
16 me directly that she had had a colostomy, so I'm
17 assuming that that was privileged information
18 that Helen Ricky had given to Brenda Grant.
19 Q. When you criticized Miss Ricky -
21 Q. When you told Miss Ricky that she
22 had not been with the INS long enough to request
23 a transfer -
24 A. Excuse me, sir, I'm sorry, that's
25 not what I said.
2 Q. What did you tell her?
3 A. I told her you haven't been in this
4 section long enough.
5 Q. Aside from Miss Ricky, did you
6 criticize any other white employees in the
7 clerical pool?
8 A. Well, the only other one that I can
9 think of was -- was Mel Wasserman.
10 Q. When you criticized Mr. Wasserman,
11 did he complain to Miss Grant?
12 A. I don't believe so. I don't even
13 know if it was a criticism. The only thing he
14 said to me is, basically, you're giving me too
15 much work to do. It was almost in a joking way.
16 You're giving me too much work to do. He says to
17 me, what is this General Motors. Is this an
18 assembly line. I mean, he had been there for
19 many years.
20 Q. On occasion, did you criticize
21 Miss Filbert?
23 Q. On those occasions, would she
24 report back to Miss Grant what you had said to
2 A. Yes, she did, immediately.
3 Q. On those occasions, Miss Grant
4 supported Miss Filbert as opposed to you?
6 Q. Are there other facts on which you
7 base your belief that Miss Grant discriminated
8 against you because you're white, aside from all
9 of the information about which you have already
10 testified?
11 A. She discriminated against me more
12 on the fact that I practiced Judaism more than
13 being Caucasian.
14 Q. Before I move on to your practicing
15 Judaism, are there any other facts that you can
16 remember that support your belief that Miss Grant
17 discriminated against you because you're white?
18 A. If you'll give me just a second
19 here (perusing).
20 As far as specific things she may
21 have said, she did not say, oh, because you're
22 white, this, that and the other thing. It was
23 just basically an attitude that she had.
24 Q. What are the facts on which you
25 base your belief that Miss Grant discriminated
2 against you because you practiced Judaism?
3 A. Okay. She was -- okay, I've made
4 notes about this -- she was fixated that a
5 gentile chose a Jewish faith, which I had done.
6 Q. When you say she was fixated, did
7 she say that she was fixated?
8 A. She didn't say, "I'm fixated."
9 Q. What made you believe that she was
10 fixated?
11 A. Okay. Around Christmastime,
12 everyone was putting up -- many people, let me
13 put it that way, many people were putting up
14 Christmas cards and decorations for Christmas. I
15 wanted to put up a small menorah because Chanukah
16 fell at approximately the same time, and she was
17 adamant that I not put up the menorah. It was a
18 small menorah just on my desk.
19 Q. What did she tell you about the
20 menorah?
21 A. She says, this doesn't belong
22 here. I don't want that here.
23 Q. What did you say to her?
24 A. I said, this is my holiday. I
25 celebrate Chanukah.
2 Q. What did she say in response to
4 A. She just, you know, was very
5 annoyed. She says, I don't want it here.
6 Q. In the end, did you put up the
7 menorah?
9 Q. Did she tell you why she didn't
10 want it up?
11 A. She didn't like it and she didn't
12 want it there.
13 Q. Did she say anything else about the
14 menorah?
15 A. That was basically it at that time.
16 Q. Did she say why she didn't like it?
17 A. It was her attitude.
18 Q. Aside from this menorah incident,
19 are there other facts on which you base your
20 belief that Miss Grant discriminated against you
21 because you practiced Judaism?
23 Q. What are those facts?
24 A. When we were making up the calendar
25 for people's leave, it was a situation where
2 basically she forced me to give Rosh Hashanah off
3 to the lead clerk, Delores Filbert. There were
4 three people in the section that practiced
5 Judaism: Myself, also Mel Wasserman -- well, two
6 people, let me put it that way, two people. And
7 Delores Filbert wanted Rosh Hashanah off. I
8 said, why do you want that holiday off. She
9 says, you're not even Jewish. She said, oh, my
10 daughter works for a company in the garment area
11 that she takes that holiday off every year. She
12 says, I need that holiday off. I want that
13 holiday off. I says, well, I'm taking that
14 holiday off. I says, we need coverage on the
15 floor and she became very upset with that and she
16 ran into Miss Grant's office and Miss Grant came
17 out -- well, Miss Grant called me into her office
18 and she said, you're going to give this to
19 Miss Filbert. And I said, I have to take that
20 day off because that's Rosh Hashanah. I'm taking
21 it off, you know, and she refused to give it to
22 me, but she did give that day off to Delores
23 Filbert.
24 Q. Did you end up taking Rosh Hashanah
25 off that year?
2 A. I wasn't there that long because
3 that was a calendar and Rosh Hashanah, okay, the
4 calendar that I was making up was for time, which
5 1 subsequently was not physically there for.
6 Q. When was this dispute about whether
7 Miss Filbert or you would be taking off for Rosh
8 Hashanah?
9 A. I believe that may have been in -
10 that may have been in March, February, March of
12 Q. Typically, is the annual leave
13 schedule set up that far in advance?
15 Q. Aside from insisting that you give
16 Miss Filbert off for Rosh Hashanah, did
17 Miss Grant tell you anything else about whether
18 or not you would be permitted to take off for
19 Rosh Hashanah that year?
20 A. Well, she sent me a memo and she
21 said, why are you taking this day off. Who gave
22 you this leave, and she wasn't going to give me
23 the day off. She sent a memo.
24 Q. Focusing now on the conversation
25 that you had with her in her office concerning
2 this issue, what else do you remember her telling
3 you about taking off for Rosh Hashanah?
4 A. She said, we have to have -- she
5 said, why -- she said you can't take that day
6 off. Your lead clerk is going to be off that
7 day. You can't take that day off. I said, this
8 is Rosh Hashanah. This is the highest -- this is
9 one of the highest holidays -- holiest holidays
10 in my religion. I have to take it off. She
11 says, well, you can't take it off. I'm not
12 giving it to you.
13 Q. Then after you received the memo
14 that you described from Miss Grant, did you have
15 any further conversations with her about taking
16 off for Rosh Hashanah?
17 A. I may have. I don't recall
18 offhand. I mean, I'm sure I did.
19 Q. You can't remember anything about
20 those conversations?
22 Q. Aside from the menorah incident and
23 the Rosh Hashanah incident, are there other
24 incidents or other facts on which you base your
25 belief that Miss Grant discriminated against you
2 because you were Jewish?
4 Q. What are those facts?
5 A. Okay. During Passover of 1996,
6 which that year may have fallen in the month of
7 March, she ridiculed my eating matzah at my desk
8 and she tried to get me to stop. She was very
9 comtemptuous. She said why are you eating that
10 instead of bread. I said because this is
11 matzah. It's Passover. I eat matzah during
12 Passover. Okay. I don't eat bread. And she
13 says, well, you're not Jewish and there's no
14 reason for you to eat that. I says, well, I
15 practice the Jewish religious. She says you're
16 not Jewish. She couldn't understand why a person
17 who had been born a gentile would follow the
18 Jewish religion.
19 Q. Aside from what you've already
20 testified to, did she say anything else to you
21 about your eating of matzah during the Passover
22 of 1996?
23 A. Well, again, she tried to get me to
24 stop. She didn't understand why I was eating
25 matzah.
2 Q. How did she try to get you to stop?
3 A. She says, why are you eating this.
4 You're not Jewish. First, she says what is
5 that. I said this is matzah. She said why are
6 you eating it. I says because I observe the
7 Jewish faith. It's Passover. I don't eat
8 bread. I don't eat anything that's leavened:
9 You know, cookies, crackers, that type of thing.
10 She said well, you're not Jewish. You don't have
11 to eat that.
12 Q. Were you eating at your desk?
13 A. Yes .
14 Q. Is that where you eat lunch?
15 A. Oftentimes.
16 Q. Aside from the Passover incident,
17 the menorah incident and the Rosh Hashanah
18 incident, are there other facts on which you base
19 your belief that Miss Grant discriminated against
20 you because you were Jewish?
21 A. Let me look at my notes (perusing).
22 Gwynne -- excuse me, Doris Meissner, who is the
23 commissioner of INS in Washington, D.C., was
24 visiting 26 Federal Plaza, visiting INS as the
25 commissioner, and basically Brenda Grant wanted
(212) 267-6868 (5 16) 608-2400
2 to make sure that everyone was aware that Doris
3 Meissner was thereand she would be meeting with
4 Doris Meissner as well as, you know, other people
5 further up the chain of command; and she and
6 Gwynne MacPherson were absolutely fixated on the
7 fact -- on whether or not George -- Doris
8 Meissner is Jewish and when they heard that she
9 was coming, I heard them say on several
10 occasions, "Is she a Jew? Is she a Jew?" They
11 couldn't think of anything else, you know. This
12 seemed to be all they could think about.
13 Q. Aside from hearing them say about
14 Doris Meissner, "is she a Jew, is she a Jew," did
15 you hear them say anything else about Doris
16 Meissner's religion?
17 A. That seemed to be enough.
18 Q. Because you described them as
19 fixated on that issue.
21 Q. I want to find out whether, aside
22 from hearing them repeat that question twice, you
23 heard anything else that led you to believe that
24 they were fixated on Miss Meissner's religion?
25 A. I, unfortunately, am not a mind
2 reader. I don't know.
3 Q. So that is the basis for your
4 belief that they were fixated on Miss Meissner's
5 religion?
6 A. I didn't say anything because they
7 were talking to each other in front of me and
8 they kept repeating, "is she a Jew? Do you think
9 she's a Jew?"
10 Q. Did they answer the question?
11 A. Well, they were talking back and
12 forth. I remember Gwynne MacPherson saying, I
13 don't think she is. And then she would say,
14 well, maybe she is. They were just very, very
15 again, fixated on whether or not Doris Meissner
16 was a Jew.
17 Q. Aside from the incidents that
18 you've already detailed -- for the sake of
19 completeness and also exhausting your memory, I
20 will mention them -- aside from the menorah
21 incident, the Rosh Hashanah incident, the
22 Passover incident and the Doris Meissner
23 incident, are there other facts on which you base
24 your belief that Miss Grant discriminated against
25 you because of your religion?
2 A. Not that I can think of at this
4 MR. FISHER: Let's go off the
5 record.
6 [Whereupon, a discussion was held
7 off the record.]
8 Q. What are the facts on which you
9 base your belief that Miss Grant discriminated
10 against you because of your disability?
11 A. Well, the very fact -- I'm just
12 looking at my notes here (perusing) -- could you
13 be more specific, you know?
14 Q. You testified earlier that
15 Miss Grant discriminated against you because of
16 your multiple sclerosis.
18 Q. I would like to know every instance
19 that you can think of that demonstrates that she
21 disability.
22 A. The fact that I asked her on
23 several occasions for assistance, as far as
24 lifting the 50-pound boxes of files. I told her
25 on more than one occasion, on several occasions,
2 that I have multiple sclerosis and this is very
3 dangerous. This is deadly for a person with
4 multiple sclerosis to be doing physical labor,
5 and she just -- her attitude is, well, you just
6 have to do the work. You just have to do it.
7 Q. When did you first tell her that
8 you had multiple sclerosis?
9 A. I believe that was in November of
11 Q. Aside from asking her to have
12 someone assist you with lifting the boxes, did
13 you ask her for any other help in distributing
14 the files?
15 A. I asked her for people to assist me
16 in passing out the files; that basically, I
17 needed someone to help me put them on people's
18 desks, to find the specific files.
19 Q. Did she refuse to assign someone to
20 that task?
21 A. Yes, she did.
22 Q. Again, aside from asking her to
23 assign someone to the job of helping you
24 distribute the files, did you ask her for any
25 other kinds of assistance in distributing the
2 heavy files?
3 A. I asked her basically for a cart to
4 put the files in. There were carts on the
5 floor. There are also carts on the 8th floor,
6 but they could not be used because they were
7 filled with files already. They were already
8 filled with files, and I couldn't take those
9 files out and use the cart.
10 Q. So what did she say when you asked
11 her for a cart?
12 A. She said, you'll have to do this
13 yourself.
14 Q. Did you ever approach anyone, aside
15 from Miss Grant, to ask for a cart that would
16 help you in distributing the files?
17 A. There was really no one else to
18 ask.
19 Q. Are there other facts on which you
20 base your belief that Miss Grant discriminated
21 against you because of your multiple sclerosis?
22 A. Specific incidents?
23 [Continued on the next page to
24 allow for signature line and jurat.]
2 Q. Anything you can think of; whether
3 it's something that she did or something that she
4 said or something that you became aware of from
5 some other source that she had done or said.
6 A. (Perusing.) Excuse me for just a
7 second (perusing).
8 To be perfectly honest with you,
9 I'm really running out of steam. I have to say I
10 really can't continue because I'm just, you know,
11 wasted.
12 MR. FISHER: Okay. Let's conclude
13 the deposition and we will schedule a date
14 for its continuation. Thank you.
15 MR. BRESSLER: Okay. Thank you.
16 [Whereupon, the examination of the
17 witness was concluded at 4:40 p.m.]
CARYL B. LEVENTHAL
20 before me this day
of , 2000.
SITE-MAP Commentary and Editor's Notes written and Copyright � by: LTC Michael G.