Source: http://www.info4alien.de/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1476019495/all
Timestamp: 2018-01-21 00:42:03
Document Index: 275896761

Matched Legal Cases: ['§22', '§21', '§22', '§ 81', '§75', '§ 123']

i4a - Das Board - Verheirateter Student - Probleme mit Haupt- und Nebenwohnsitz
i4a - Das Board › Ausländerrecht › Ehe und Familie › Verheirateter Student - Probleme mit Haupt- und Nebenwohnsitz
Verheirateter Student - Probleme mit Haupt- und Nebenwohnsitz (Gelesen: 4.941 mal)
Gabon Geschlecht:
Staatsangehörigkeit: Gabon
Verheirateter Student - Probleme mit Haupt- und Nebenwohnsitz
09.10.2016 um 15:24:54
i really have a question regarding the recent changes in the registration Act (meldegesetz i think.)
i am a foreign students and have been living alone before i met my partner in another city
(about 165km apart but within same state) and we got married.
and since then i have registered my address in her home as Hauptwohnung while the other room in my school city changes to
be nebenwohnung.
and since then i have applied for a resident permit, based on our marriage "aufenthhaltitels nach 28" in her city.
But recently after 6 months of the city registrations i recieved a message from the auslanderbehorde in her city
that my file was sent back to my previous city because it was assumed/believed that my predominant place of residence
is where my studies is and hence i should go and apply for my resident card there.
Can anyone try to explain what the meldegesetz says please or does this assumptions overrule the paper works/signature.
1.) if thats the case why will the meldeamts (burger büro register me in the city initially?) register my address as hauptwohnsitz?
if i go ahead to apply for my card in the other city, its like am being forced to changed my hauptwohnung again
Does that mean married couples are automatically separated if they work in different city or they are student in different city?
Is this where the problem is? she is not working but her ausbildung start soon, though she is on sgb2 and her kid go to school
in that city while i pay part of the rent in the house every month as calculated down by the arbeitsamts since i work as a
foreign student (450eur).
2.) if my wife will come to my school`s city to register her address as nebenwohnung while my address will also be on her address
at the other city as nebenwohnung, will this suffice for my application according to the aufenhaltsgesetz nach 28?
since we married the arbeitsamt deducted some money up to 300eur support bonus, cos they belief she isnt alone again.
3.) all things being equal, can we file a case against the arbeitsamts to claim this money back, since parts of the system isnt reconising
us living together for now?
Daddys' Änderung:
Eigene Frage = eigener Thread und das Crosspost wurde gelöscht!
« Zuletzt geändert: 10.10.2016 um 09:47:00 von Daddy »
Re: Verheirateter Student - Probleme mit Haupt- und Nebenwohnsitz
Antwort #1 - 09.10.2016 um 15:49:38
If you live together you need a mutual residence as Hauptwohnung. Just because the Ausländerbehörde claims you have an appartment as Nebenwohnung you dont have to change your registered address. They indirectly claim that your marriage is not protectworthy under the constitution, because they claim you are married just for the residence permit. You should prove that you visit your wife on regulary basis and pay her keep. If you dont visit your wife in the last 6 month than this could be a dealbreaker.
By law you are not separated just because you live in different cities if you have good reasons (e.g. work, study)
Dont do that. Your wife and her child would suffer, because the Jobcenter would stop paying the rent and the keep for her and her child
Against what you want to file a complaint?
Either you live together with your wife, you can claim a residence permit and you have to give your wife a keep and help her with raising the child
you are separated and you can not claim the residence permit and she gets more money.
PS: Please stop hijacking other threads. I report your post to the admins to separate your question to a new thread.
« Zuletzt geändert: 09.10.2016 um 15:59:48 von Aras »
Antwort #2 - 09.10.2016 um 16:09:27
first of all: you should have created your own thread and you should write in German language (as student(!) living in Germany).
So far, from your side everything is done accurately.
You are married, you registered your main residence (Hauptwohnung) at your wifes address.
This is absolutely in conformity with the Bundesmeldegesetz, because the residence of your spouse / family ist also your main residence, as it is generally regulated by §22 Bundesmeldegesetz (BMG) in conjunction with §21 BMG.
It is not the duty of the Ausländerbehörde, to decide about it, as long as there are no doubts about the fact, that you are still married, actually living with your wife and family together and e.g. you are regularly travelling from the city of school back to your family.
You should just inform the Ausländerbehörde in your wife's city about that (means: writing a letter in German language) and promt them to acknowledge their responsibility in your case.
meldegesetz/aufenthaltstitel nach 28
Antwort #3 - 09.10.2016 um 17:13:49
continuation regarding the hauptwohnsitz and nebenwohnsitz with my wife;
http://www.info4alien.de/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1471027806/new
please i have given the case to the lawyer already, but she never respond to their letter until i prompted her of the meldegesetz nach 22, 21.
but the main issue is my current 2years residents permit expires in 19days, still expectimng their response to the lawyer though, but i really dont know why am not comfortable with my lawyer writes up, not commanding enough and changing my lawyer:
1.) may sound too despirate again to get the resident permit?
2.)what should i do if they insist i should go to the other city to apply and considering my current permit expires too soon?
the other city will definately renew it but am sure they will ask me to go the meldeamts to change my hauptwohnung which means it will be renewed based on my studies, this isnt problem at all but the fact is ,the assupmtions that follows legally that we are not together having differents hauptwohnsitz.
and infact we are always together even during the week, (my university tickets takes me thru the nrw)
3.) what happen if i will not go to the other city and i insisits my wife city is my hauptwohnung or which is the next step now, cos i belief they are using delay tactics now beofre responding to my lawyers `opinion´ as she wrotes it.
please i study in english and my deutsch ist ganz schlecht.
Re: meldegesetz/aufenthaltstitel nach 28
Antwort #4 - 09.10.2016 um 17:49:15
anyway, you should avoid to separate yours and your wife's main residence (Hauptwohnsitz).
As you told us the circumstances here, there is in my opinion no factual reason to impeach the credibility of your statement, that your primary centre of life is where your familiy lives.
So, I renew my advice, to write this letter to the responsible Ausländerbehörde (ABH, city of your wife) with copies of your marriage certificate, registration* and your current residence permit as registered letter ("Einschreiben").
Request them to get in touch with your "old" ABH to clear the responsibility.
In the same letter you apply for your new residence permit as spouse of your German wife.
If the are unable to clear this matter right in time, they ought issue a temporary residence permit, called "Fiktionsbescheinigung".
All this your lawyer, paid by you, should know and arrange in my opinion.
but am sure they will...
means nothing. There is no place for "maybe". Just make sure first, if they will do or not.
* = "Anmeldebescheinigung" Hauptwohnsitz or better "Erweiterte Meldebescheinigung", which shows, that your wife and you are married and both live at her address
Antwort #5 - 31.10.2016 um 16:46:07
update regarding the above subject matter.
i recieved the below message from the bürger buro in my uni city, inviting me and trying to claim my main city is in my uni city.
truely i do mini job, in a city.but i sometimes even go to this job from my wife city and back and i work only six days in a month (sometime 35hrs in a month.)
and for sure am always in her city every weekend,and my long holidays.
what should i do with the claim that i need to report daily in my wife city to be recognize as my main residence.?
saying i should bring my passport, did anyone have experience about to which extent this can go?
##Sie werden gebet bis zum 14.11.2016 beim Burgerburo der Stadt (my uni city) zur Klärung Ihrer Meldeverhaltnisse personlich vorzusprechen.
Sie sind in (my studies city) mit Nebenwohnsitz gemeldet.
Die Auslanderbehorde des Kreises (my uni city) teilt uns mit,
dass Sie in (my uni city) studieren und in mülheim an der ruhr einer Beschaftigung nachgehen.
Aufgrund und (my wife city) pendeln. Der Hauptwohnsitz einer Person ist da,
wo diese sich in der Woche uberwiegend aufhalt.
Bitte bringen Sie diesen Brief und Ihren Ausweis bzw. Reisepass mit. ##
Antwort #6 - 31.10.2016 um 16:53:00
1. Are you right now represented by a lawyer?
2. Do you visit your wife regularly? How often? Have you any proof of it?
3. Do you send your wife money or does she send money to you?
Antwort #7 - 31.10.2016 um 17:13:15
1.) yes, but sincerely i really don`t understand my lawyer.
and becos the issue is now between me and my uni city.i really feel she will want to do re-negotiate of her fee if she will be coming-in.
2.)Yes i visit her regularly, proof?
i use my uni tickets free, job centre deduct her money cos we are together and its always written in the documents.
3.)We dont both do real time bank transfer, but may be once or twice. though she sent to my account recently.
Do you have any clue what i should expect with them and how i prepare with the little details above?
though ill contact my lawyer before going.
Thanks so much for your swift response
Antwort #8 - 31.10.2016 um 17:32:25
1) If you are represented by a lawyer, it is unlawful for the office to write Mail directly to you. The so called "Überrumpelungsverbot".
2) you should document your visits, even if it is just writing it into your personal calendar.
They don't respect your legal representation. They ignore your letters. Now they want you to visit them in their office.
I would not recommend to go there alone. It could go well or it could go horribly wrong. You are in the risk of getting tricked into making your situation bad, even though you did everything right.
Fact is, that you have to register yourself in the city of your wife. They refused that, despite the law is saying strictly the opposite.
If I were in your shoes, I would ask for the official notice/decision for refusing the registration, make my contradiction/obection and give it at the end to the administrative court. No talk.
Antwort #9 - 31.10.2016 um 17:32:54
wege schrieb am 31.10.2016 um 16:46:07:
Der Hauptwohnsitz einer Person ist da, wo diese sich in der Woche uberwiegend aufhalt.
this definition of main residence is wrong and arbitrarily.
Ask your lawyer and point him to, as i told you before, the definition of "main residence" as it is stated in §22 (1) BMG.
That's the point for your situation, as long as you are still in marital relation to your spouse.
Edit: ...and I agree with Aras in this matter.
Antwort #10 - 31.10.2016 um 17:56:48
Thank you guys, i really appreciate.
@ Aras.
1.) my lawyer have not once written to my uni stadt before,
she has been dealing with the auslanderbehorde where my wife is, and now its like my ehewohnung´s kreis haus asked for their opinion in the matter, and thats why i think my uni stadt have written to me directly.(my wife stadt always write to my lawyer.)
i will inform her before going there, but sincerely i have met a lawyer who asked me normally it will be better if i go to my home country to apply for this,(leaving my studies cos of paper )
i learnt most this lawyers are not really supporting, they just after money,unlike lawyers in UK ,US and so..
2.)By chance can you recommed a sound lawyer for me in and around Hamm, gelsenkirchen, münster ?
3.) sorry if i loose a case in court, will i have to pay any money to the city or something? any disadvantages?
Antwort #11 - 31.10.2016 um 18:43:27
I would say the contrary is the case. In Germany the height of the fees are given by law (RVG). And if you are not agreeing for hourly payment you will pay the normal fee. So the lawyer can not make soo much money by delaying your case as it is possible in anglo-american system. For a normal administrative application they can get about 460 €.
So I have to protect my colleagues from the accusation that they want to make the big money by maybe working slow.
But I can tell you, that in Germany the good lawyers are usually working as judges or as the business lawyers in big offices. There is a majority of lawyers who just became lawyers because they barely passed the german bar test.
To be honest: Your case is a simple case. There is no big stuff to clarify.
to 2) I dont know any lawyers in those cities.
to 3) You just pay your fees and the fees of the court. Court fees should be about 400-500 €. But to be honest: How can you lose in a case, where even the administration office is using the wrong definition of Wohnsitz??? No wonder they come to the wrong result by subsuming with that wrong definition.
Antwort #12 - 31.10.2016 um 20:01:22
Here is the law which should be appicable for you:
Hauptwohnung = Hauptwohnsitz
Go to the Bürger Büro of your wife's city and make it clear to them. You live with your wife - full stop.
I think you don't need a lawyer for this but better you take someone with you to support you with german language. It's your legal right to bring someone (friend, does not have to be a lawyer) to support you.
Antwort #13 - 04.11.2016 um 11:09:54
Thank you all for given me such courage.
i was at my uni city to clarify my issue as invited and what i did was ;
1.) i didnt go to the counter of the person that wrote the above letter.
2.) I asked her first if she can explain what the city means by
Der Hauptwohnsitz einer Person ist da, wo diese sich in der Woche uberwiegend aufhalt. then i showed her to explain the BMG nach 22 for me very well. but she said no, i have recht normally in this case after reading through. then i started pointing out alot based on the ff-
`` printed out some paper that could atleast show some activities in that city, i was doing my licence training in the city two months ago, my netflix statement of account for the tv for about 5months, payment made in the city for about 4 months was circle in statement and i printed the law both in english and german version and so on....
3.)Then she made a call to the exact woman dealing with my case in the other city, they both argue for about 10minutes on phone. she was telling her thats not their problem if they have any doubt or so, they should deal with it within my wife city or so.(thats what i could understood among all)
4.) she wrote a niederschrift as attached, and thats my concerned now, cos its not on the stadt letter head paper, no name, just signature from both of us, but she wrote at the bottom -geschlosen and signed it and i signed where she wrote vgu also. i hope thats sufficient for future use no matter what.
she said she will send one to the woman she spoke to, and she will also keep one and told me i should talk to my lawyer if they will persist given me issue.
5.) hoping to recieve another mail from the woman in my hauptwohnstadt , asking for another thing or bringing the case in another dimension or just give me my recht.
if she really have problem, i know she will push my (frau city) to also do something like controlling my home in that city. or so
Thanks you all very much and dont hesiatate to still advice on preparation towards any unforseen.
city.pdf (46 KB | 64 )
Antwort #14 - 04.11.2016 um 11:26:46
the Niederschrift is good. It doesnt matter that the letter head of the uni city is on it. So to speak: The case is, according to your posting, for the uni city closed.
Now the city of your wife (which should be "the city of you and your wife") has to be convinced.
Antwort #15 - 04.11.2016 um 11:40:18
Aras schrieb am 04.11.2016 um 11:26:46:
(which should be "the city of you and your wife")
Much thanks for your effort once again.
Antwort #16 - 30.11.2016 um 13:44:17
The foreign office in my Hauptstadt,come to my home this morning as expected.
Yes of course, i was not at home, and they ask my wife if they can come in, but she didn't let them come inside.
she gave them the excuse that she wont really feel comfortable, cos she just sent the kids to school and the house was not in order.
But they just ask her some question about me as follows;
1.) my study course, she said it
2.)master or bachelor program? she said it
3.)how did he do the tickets? his semester tickects
4.)how did he manage to come every weekend? is that not stressful.
Her response- Yes its sometimes stressful for him, its about 4 hrs journey on public transport and if there is delay may be 6 hours. but he comes normally every weekend,though he wasn't there last weekend cos he need to attend to do some group works in the school last Saturday.
5.)Did you have his clothes, brush , and shoes inside here?
Yes of course, i will have really like you to come inside.its just early morning and i hope you understand me, but if you can come back next time, then it should be OK.
Thats all she remember.
Yes she said the truth in every case,
but my concerned is how the outcomes normally works here-
1.) is there any issue for not letting them entering into the house?
2.) and they never bothered to ask her to at least bring any of my shoe pair or clothes and her mind wasn't clear enough in that direction at that moment.
Does that mean they are convincing enough that those things are there?
3.)what should be expected if they are not convincing enough?
if there will be decision based on not convincing enough, what counter-step should we take then?
is it possible they really come back?
4.) what preventive measures should be taking into consideration at this stage?
Like can she write to them, giving them some other daily facts and figures?
of course i will inform my lawyer..........though i only still keep my lawyer if there will be need to charge the case to court.
Thank you for your time and responds in advance.
Antwort #17 - 01.12.2016 um 10:22:29
of course, on the one hand, they don't have the right to enter without your wife's permission.
On the other hand, it's very...unclever... not to cooperate, as long as cooperation is able to convince them about your claim.
Your wife decided not to cooperate. Really because of she "wont really feel comfortable, cos she just sent the kids to school and the house was not in order"? Or because of the possibility, that she knew, that the guys would find unhelpful things / persons or would miss helpful facts?
However, if you have a controversial matter and do not cooperate for solving it in your sense, you have any right to do so, but you have to live with the results as well. Would have been such an easy thing to show them your toilette equipment, some of your clothes or whatever in her house to convince them and maybe a judge later. Missed chance.
And the result is, that the office for foreigners has maybe new arguments for their point of view and I, as uninvolved third party, can meanwhile understand their doubts, sorry.
So, my advice is, to contact your lawyer. As it concerns me, I'm off here.
Antwort #18 - 09.02.2017 um 23:09:05
Thanks for your good insight so far.
Unfortunately,I am still leaving with the "logical" dealings from the foreign office till now.
despite the foreign office came to my hauptwohnsitz and still they didn't make any decision till now.
I was there Dec 27th 2016 to extend the previous temporary (fiktion bescheinigung) she gave to me, and she just put stamp on it and extend it for one month with a very clear attitude ; like I must be coming there every month and she also said it and told me if I want to make things easy I should go and apply in my uni city.then at this point I really got hurt and shouted at her seriously, i brought out a printed meldegesetz and start reading to her, I gave her the letter my unistadt wrote to me and the eklärung they wrote (which she also have copies) and immediately she collected the invite letter addressed to me by my uni city (before i went there to clear the issue) and start copying it without my permission( I was schocked again and told her she is really doing more than her self now). I walked out of her office, at this point.
While checking my audio recordings of our conversations; I get to listen to another voice that said; Ruhre jetzt Oder Ich Kommen über from an inside office(a man voice)
I heard it previously but I couldn't pick the meaning at that point and I if had understood him at that point I think I will have really take some silly action, I have always try to ignore this stupid talks from these offices but ......
Normally I travelled for holidays.
For the past 9 months I can't apply for any country's visa again;
1.)are they not infringing on my freedom of movement?
I am not asylum seeker or whatever........
Of course its difficult for employer to employ one with one month residence.
2.)won't I loose my current job if I will have to always have to give them one month fiktion to work every month since my normal card expired.
I can't do any holiday jobs for as most job require minimum of 4 months period on resident card.
3.) can she actually make a copy of letter or doc addressed to me without my permission?
4.) can anyone just suggest any other step I can take, I think VwGO nach 75 should work here.
5.) why are they just silent like without any feedback after coming to my house, even when I asked her she behaved as if she has no idea anyone came to my house.
Is there other office I can deal with regarding those that came?
6.)normally I was suppose to have extended the one month she gave me at the end of January but I couldn't go (I was writing exams and my was also sick).
Iam going home finally for winter holiday next week and will be going there, is it not too late and any potential issue with the late fiktion extension?
6.) And my lawyer? she is just asking for money and trying to tell me the fees might go high..............and i keep ignoring her.
Though my wife keep talking to her and want to pay her by herself.
Thanks for your responses in anticipation.
Antwort #19 - 09.02.2017 um 23:24:18
If your fiktionsbescheingung is with a checkmark on § 81 Abs. 4 you can use it for travels.
Get the papers that say that you cant get your job because of that. Use it to sue directly the city for avoiding the decision. And get the lost income from the city.
yes, sueing according to §75 VwGO. If you miss a job chance you could try to sue according to § 123 VwGO.
5.) Ordnungsamt?
6.) The fiktionsbescheinigung is just a paper. It is a Bescheinigung. It is just a proof that you applied for a new residence permit.. You dont really need it. As long as they are processing your application your stay is valid. So if you go there to get a new Fiktionsbescheinigung or not... doesnt matter. Plus it costs money?!
7.) If you dont make enough money: Beratungshilfeschein from the Amtsgericht. Didnt you get one in the first place? If you need money to sue then you can apply for Prozesskostenhilfe.
You are now working on this for 4 months?
Antwort #20 - 10.02.2017 um 00:33:24
1.) you mean I can use fiktion bescheinigung to apply for another country visa( a non EU-member)
Normally I think you need minimum of six month, of the the current residence allowance if you're apply for most visa outside of your home country.
2.) I applied since may 2016. Though my previous students resident card was still six month valid then. But it's more than 4 month since its expired.
Antwort #21 - 10.02.2017 um 00:42:27
1) if the other country accepts it. But yes it is Problematically
2) the Date of your application ist relevant Not the expiration Date of your Residence permit
Antwort #22 - 15.03.2017 um 09:11:17
My wife made a phone call to the foreign office , just to request for the status of the application and she also mentioned that if they didn't decide yet then we take the untätigkeitklage.
Few hours later the auslanderbehorde visit my home, they met myself, the kids and my wife.
They brought out two papers one that the content was about :-
1.) fictitious marriage and they asked my wife and myself to sign it writing my wife names using her formal surname instead our common family name.
They said that's how everyone sign it and they don't want us to really read the content as they are really trying to summarize it.
2.)They requested for the original copy of the fiction bescheinigung they previously gave to me and said they will like to give me new one that extend till June 2017 (the current one extended till May 2017).
What I could understand is they changed my address on it, instead of writting my Uni address they wrote my hauptwohnsitz address and they still wrote on it that it's valid for my study and write how many days am entitle to work and so.....on
My wife told them on phone I lost a job becos of that recently and it was clearly stated that my fiction bescheinigung was not sufficient to offer the holiday job I missed.
At the end the whole things seems not to be cleared to me;
So I asked them the two questions:-
1.) if I have a lawyer; why are you by passing my lawyer to asked me to sign a paper in my home?
Their answer was ok , we can also do that if you want then we will have to invite you to our office later then.
2.) How late does it take for this city database to be updated if for instance my wife surname is this and your good office is written it as that...
Then they are really not feeling comfortable at this junction, and I open my house door and asked them to leave and they should contact my lawyer with such fake document they re carrying of course I made some record of the talk.
Hey, I hope am not over reacting now?
I can't wait to see these people in court, the issue is becoming interesting to me.
And am still waiting to hear from my lawyer ..........
Antwort #23 - 16.03.2017 um 02:29:14
What type of record did you produce?
Antwort #24 - 29.12.2017 um 18:16:00
Thank you Aras and TP 2013. :
You guys really helped me alot!
1.) Finally after 1year2 months of application (may2016), i got my residence card extended for just one year (july 2017-july 2018) instead of 3 years (german spouse).
though my passport expires by (Oct 2018), i dont know if thats the reason as my lawyer didnt bother to answer my questions again.
2.) my marriage will be upto 2 years, in feb 2018, can i apply to naturalize or
unbefristet residence card after the expiration of the 1 year extension in june 2018?
with the following financial conditions, all other things being equal:
my wife started working in Dec 2017, and just out of arbeitamts and earn between 800-900, we have wohnegeld, and i am about to apply for bäfog plus i have
unlimited contract with a mini job of 450euros.
OR will i still need to have just extend for another 2 years to complete the 3 years?
3.) Moreso, after two years if there is a separation of home (wohnsitz)between me and my spouse,what will happen if
i have unlimited mini-job contract and am still a students if i want to extend again, probably if i have B1 and all other tests done by then.