Source: http://ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2569&amp
Timestamp: 2019-06-18 17:37:50
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Matched Legal Cases: ['§1', '§2', '§1', '§1', '§1', '§1', '§2', '§1', '§2', '§2']

Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου - B-Greek: The Biblical Greek Forum
Post by Stephen Hughes » June 5th, 2014, 11:04 pm
cwconrad in response to Jordan Day in the [url=http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2549#p15677]Homeric, Classical, Koine...whats the REAL difference?[/url] thread wrote: to know what's Attic Greek you'll need to read some ...
[quote="Barry Hofstetter in reply to Jordan Day in the "Unseen" Koine Text tread"]Another issue is context. ... a context in which the sentence makes sense ... connected, sensible readings are necessary along with short exercises...[/quote]
Invitation: If anyone would like to follow Barry's suggestion and read a longer piece, then it would be my pleasure to read one together. It has been suggested to me that Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου (Speech on behalf of the disabled man) might be a good one to work through.
Manifesto: This is an open invitation to read a text together. Ancient Greek as a language was the language of a city, and this is a speech made by one of the disadvantaged members of that society. Ancient Greek is often mentioned on B-Greek as both worth learning and very valuable for understanding the (Attic) Koine. This thread is an attempt to democratise the learning of Ancient Greek and to facilitate access to one of the canonical texts of Ancient Greek oratory. I have no pretense of wanting to write an exhaustive commentary, or for this to be a definitive analysis of the text. I only hope that as readers of the New Testament, our reading ability in Greek will improve and our ability to both appreciate and handle Ancient Greek sources will be easier and more profitable as a result of working through this.
Text: Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου is an example of forensic oratory ( speech delivered in a legal case). It is number 24 in the list of Lysias' speeches. Lysias' speeches have been read as examples of good Greek since ancient times, and are appropriate for 2nd year (upper) intermediate level students.
Suggested approach(es): There are twenty-seven sections in the speech, we could work through them one by one, like we did for the unseens - without aids for as long as possible - that's what I would prefer to do. (Another way - much quicker - is that you read the translation then read the Greek, and we discuss the places where you can't see how the two match - that would be good to improve your knowledge of specific points in the language, but Barry is suggesting that it is good to read for context).
Where to begin: Let's start with the historical and social context. You could read an introduction to the speech presented here. The older edition of the Loeb is available online at Internet Archive, (look for page 519) for those who want that kind of resource.
Proposal: We could read and discuss our understanding of the text as was done in the two previous "unseens"; I can supply some hints that seem relevant to people who are already somewhat familiar with New Testament Greek, which could be used in a way that suits individual learning styles.
My hope: I hope that in each section we could identify at least one way in which our understanding of the New Testament has been helped by dealing with this text. Either a word, a phrase or a social custom would be great.
Expected problem: Because this is an asynchronous discussion, and will probably have more than one participant, it would be better if the title for each post contained the section number(s) that the post is about, i.e. §1, §2, ... etc., and your name.
If this speech of Lysias' were the only destination for ferries on B-Greek's harbour, it would be much better if "Reading Lysias 24" had it's own sub-forum, where the text were introduced and hinted at in one thread all at once and indexed at the beginning (with the double circle and exclamation mark that always remained on top), and then everyone participating created their own separate threads in the sub-forum and could get underway at their own pace - without feeling that they had missed THE boat, and could feel post responses to as many or as few of the sections as they felt they needed to.
As it stands, however, in a high traffic, multi-interest forum like this, keeping everybody's work together in one interwoven thread is a way to both give sense of cohesion to the task without altering the structure of the forum and to not appearing to SPAM the active topics list for the duration of the undertaking.
Last edited by Stephen Carlson on July 17th, 2014, 12:05 am, edited 5 times in total.
Reason: Link updated; Last two paragraphs added.
§1 - Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου
Post by Stephen Hughes » June 5th, 2014, 11:09 pm
Λυσίας, [i]ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου[/i] 24.1 wrote: οὐ πολλοῦ δέω χάριν ἔχειν, ὦ βουλή, τῷ κατηγόρῳ, ὅτι μοι παρεσκεύασε τὸν ἀγῶνα τουτονί. πρότερον γὰρ οὐκ ἔχων πρόφασιν ἐφ᾽ ἧς τοῦ βίου λόγον δοίην, νυνὶ διὰ τοῦτον εἴληφα. καὶ πειράσομαι τῷ λόγῳ τοῦτον μὲν ἐπιδεῖξαι ψευδόμενον, ἐμαυτὸν δὲ βεβιωκότα μέχρι τῆσδε τῆς ἡμέρας ἐπαίνου μᾶλλον ἄξιον ἤ φθόνου: διὰ γὰρ οὐδὲν ἄλλο μοι δοκεῖ παρασκευάσαι τόνδε μοι τὸν κίνδυνον οὗτος ἢ διὰ φθόνον.
Hints: (You could look at these after working through it yourself)
οὐ πολλοῦ - μικρόν, ὀλίγον
δέω - you might be expecting δεῖ μοι. (This is a difference between the older period and now.)
βουλή - ἡ βουλὴ τῶν πεντακοσίων or simply οἱ πεντακόσιοι (= φ́ as a numeral). The senate of Athens, who was reviewing his eligibility for state support, an ἐτήσον ἐπίδομα (contribution that was reviewed yearly for eligibility).
τουτονί & νυνί - these are emphatic forms of words you should be able to recognise.
πρόφασις - unlike its generally negative feeling in the New Testament, it is used in a positive ways here, cf. John 15:22 Εἰ μὴ ἦλθον καὶ ἐλάλησα αὐτοῖς, ἁμαρτίαν οὐκ εἶχον· νῦν δὲ πρόφασιν οὐκ ἔχουσιν περὶ τῆς ἁμαρτίας αὐτῶν.
τῷ λόγῳ - i.e. the λόγος which he is now speaking before the court.
πειράω - (+inf) much like our English way of saying it.
ἐπιδεῖξαι - (+ 2 accusatives (understood εἶναι)).
ἐπιδεῖξαι - repeated on both sides of the μὲν ... δὲ ... syntax / sentence pattern.
τοῦτον - refers again to the κατήγορος (a person standing on the other side of the courtroom).
ἄξιον - (+gen.) There are two genitives both used here in turn separated by the μᾶλλον ἤ
διὰ οὐδὲν ἄλλο ... ἢ διὰ φθόνον - He leaves the punchline till the end, he could have simple said διὰ φθόνον at the beginning of the sentence.
κίνδυνος - danger, (here metaphorically, i.e. a situation in which someone could be subject to loss). It is often used in forensic oratory.
Post by Stephen Hughes » June 6th, 2014, 1:28 am
Please be respectful of each other's attempts when they are posted here. Off-beat translations, cascade effect, and complete misunderstandings are to be expected. If you disagree, try to see why the other person has arrived at a different understanding. It's all good for the learning process.
What I, or others, post is our best attempt. If you think differently, that is great, go ahead and post it. If you are right, you are right. If you are not-right-enough, then you are learning. There's no loss for mistakes and a big scope for gain by trying.
I suggest that you don't look ahead to my hints or the feedback for others till you have done some work on the section yourself.
Re: §1 - Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου
Post by Stephen Hughes » June 6th, 2014, 2:13 am
In a PM I been told that some further hints are needed, and I concede that...
Further hints: (You could look at these after working through it yourself)
διὰ φθόνον - we can see whether it is a good word or a god one from the context in Romans 1:29 πεπληρωμένους πάσῃ ἀδικίᾳ, πορνείᾳ, πονηρίᾳ, πλεονεξίᾳ κακίᾳ· μεστοὺς φθόνου, φόνου, ἔριδος, δόλου, κακοηθείας· ψιθυριστάς, and the phrase itself is used at the trial of Jesus in Mark 15:10 Ἐγίνωσκεν γὰρ ὅτι διὰ φθόνον παραδεδώκεισαν αὐτὸν οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς. (This is talking about Pilate recognising the motive of the chief priests for bringing Him to trial)
ἄξιον ἐπαίνου / ἄξιον φθόνου - try taking ἄξιον as "deserving of", "eligible to receive" as in Matthew 10:10 ἄξιος γὰρ ὁ ἐργάτης τῆς τροφῆς αὐτοῦ ἐστιν. If you are completely lost, the sense is...[/size](Who in heaven's name would envy a cripple? I thought it would be praiseworthy that I could try my best to work with my hands and earn a little money, but now I'm being envied (by some other welfare recipient) for making a very small amount of money in addition to my social security payments.)
τῆσδε - a demonstrative
Post by Wes Wood » June 6th, 2014, 10:04 am
Thanks for putting the hard work in on your recent posts. I have been following along privately as I have had the time. This one ripped me up, so this "translation" will be rough, if not flat-out wrong. This is my first attempt at non-koine greek, though I have been trying to get the resources to learn it.
"Not a little, I am bound to hold appreciation, O court, to (my?) accuser because (he?) prepared me this trial. For previously I have not had an excuse on which to give an account of (my) life, but now, because of this, I have received the opportunity. Indeed, I will try in this account to show he is lying, and I, myself, have lived up to this day worthy of praise rather than envy. For, because of nothing else, it seems to me you prepared this situation for me because of envy."
Wes Wood §1 - Feedback - ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου
Post by Stephen Hughes » June 6th, 2014, 12:32 pm
Thanks for your contribution to the endeavour, Wes. The overall sense is there as are 95% of the details. Please put your name in the subject header.
You should see superscript numbers from 1-10, if you don't, change your browser settings to a display font like Palatino Linotype which includes them.
Λυσίας, ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου 24.1 wrote: ¹οὐ πολλοῦ¹ ²δέω² ³χάριν ἔχειν³, ὦ ⁴βουλή⁴, ⁵τῷ⁵ ⁵¹κατηγόρῳ⁵¹, ὅτι μοι παρεσκεύασ⁵²ε⁵² τὸν ἀγῶνα τουτονί. πρότερον γὰρ οὐκ ἔχων πρόφασιν ⁶ἐφ᾽ ἧς⁶ τοῦ βίου λόγον δοίην, νυνὶ διὰ τοῦτον εἴληφα. καὶ πειράσομαι τῷ λόγῳ τοῦτον μὲν ἐπιδεῖξαι ψευδόμενον, ἐμαυτὸν δὲ βεβιωκότα μέχρι τῆσδε τῆς ἡμέρας ἐπαίνου μᾶλλον ἄξιον ἤ φθόνου: διὰ γὰρ οὐδὲν ἄλλο μοι δοκεῖ παρασκευάσαι τόνδε μοι τὸν ⁹κίνδυνον⁹ ⁸οὗτος⁸ ¹⁰ἢ¹⁰ διὰ φθόνον.
Wes Wood wrote: ¹Not a little | Just a little¹, ²I am bound | I need² ³to hold appreciation | ...³, O ⁴court⁴, to ⁵(my?) | my / the⁵ ⁵¹accuser (plaintiff)⁵¹ because ⁵²(he?) | he⁵² prepared me this trial. For previously I have not had an excuse ⁶on which | ...⁶ to give an account of (my) life, but now, because of this, I have received the opportunity. Indeed, I will try in this account to show he is lying, and I, myself, have lived up to this day worthy of praise rather than envy. For, because of nothing else, it seems to me ⁸you | this fellow⁸ prepared this ⁹situation | ordeal⁹ for me ¹⁰other than¹⁰ because of envy.
¹ understatement : the deliberate adoption of restrained language often to achieve a humorous or ironic effect.
²Abstract usage at that time. In our time it was concrete with the abstract expressed using δεῖ μοι + infinitive
³You have the sense of it - "be grateful to"
⁴No separation of powers in their political system, the law-maker is also the court, and the court of appeals
⁵Yes, why not say it.
⁵¹Here English uses a legal word, perhaps
⁵²Yes, the subject is understood
⁶Better than "on" ...
⁷Middle future
⁸This is third person only, so far as I know.
⁹Some word exaggerating how bad it is would be better than the neutral "situation".
¹⁰Perhaps you missed a word.
Great effort. Well done. Increased skill comes by further practice.
Post by Jordan Day » June 6th, 2014, 7:39 pm
Ok, a few things gave me problems.
1) οὐ πολλοῦ (i still dont seem to grasp it). Why the genitive? If used adverbally wouldn't it be the dative?
2) δοίην (I sensed it was an optative, but for some reason I was thinking it was 3rd person singular)
3) τῆσδε and τόνδε (your hint was useful, and then i remembered reading τάδε in Apolonius of Tyana's letters)
4) I often confuse the meaning of φθόνος and φθορά (Once I read the 2nd occurrence, the context clarified which was which).
Ἰορδάνης wrote: It is necessary for me to have little grace toward the accuser, O council, because he prepared the trial for me at this present time. For not having a reason formerly by which I should give a statement of my life, I have now received one on account of this person. And in the statement I am tempted to demonstrate this person to be lying, and myself to have lived, to this very day, more worthy of praise than envy. For it seems to me that this man would prepare this risky [trial] for no other reason than jealousy.
Ἰορδάνης §1 - Feedback - ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου
Post by Stephen Hughes » June 7th, 2014, 1:47 am
Λυσίας, ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου 24.1 wrote: οὐ πολλοῦ δέω χάριν ἔχειν, ὦ βουλή, τῷ κατηγόρῳ, ὅτι μοι παρεσκεύασε τὸν ἀγῶνα τουτονί. πρότερον γὰρ οὐκ ἔχων πρόφασιν ἐφ᾽ ἧς τοῦ βίου λόγον δοίην, νυνὶ διὰ τοῦτον εἴληφα. καὶ πειράσομαι τῷ λόγῳ τοῦτον μὲν ἐπιδεῖξαι ψευδόμενον, ἐμαυτὸν δὲ βεβιωκότα μέχρι τῆσδε τῆς ἡμέρας ἐπαίνου μᾶλλον ἄξιον ἤ φθόνου: διὰ γὰρ οὐδὲν ἄλλο μοι δοκεῖ παρασκευάσαι τόνδε μοι τὸν κίνδυνον οὗτος ἢ διὰ φθόνον.
Jordan Day wrote: It is necessary for me to ²have² ¹little | a little¹ ²grace² toward the accuser, O council, because he prepared the trial for me at this present time. For not having a reason formerly by which I should give a statement of my life, I have now received one ³on account of this person³. And in the statement ⁴I ⁵am⁵ tempted⁴ to demonstrate this person to be lying, ⁶and⁶ myself to have lived, to this very day, ⁷more worthy⁷ of praise than envy. For it seems to me that this man would prepare this risky [trial] for no other reason than jealousy.
¹γὰρ is followed by a positive statement, so presumably this is positive too.
²What does "have grace" mean in English?
³gender
⁴πειράζειν (τίνα) passim ≠ πειρᾶν (+ inf.) Acts 26:21 Ἕνεκα τούτων οἱ Ἰουδαῖοι με συλλαβόμενοι ἐν τῷ ἱερῷ ἐπειρῶντο διαχειρίσασθαι.
⁵tense
⁶Did you notice the contrast brought out by the ... μὲν ... , ... δὲ ... construction?
⁷ἐπαίνου μᾶλλον ἄξιον ἤ φθόνου (choose one of the two) ≠ ἐπαίνου ἀξιότερον ἤ φθόνου (relative statement). Worthy is a convenient translation, but explain it to me.
⁸κίνδυνος is a noun - the corresponding adj. is not used in the New Testament, but anyway, it is ἐπικίνδυνος, -ον.
Jordan Day wrote: 1) οὐ πολλοῦ (i still dont seem to grasp it). Why the genitive? If used adverbally wouldn't it be the dative?
1) Genitive suggests that it is an externally measured amount, "People might expect that to some little degree at least". The accusatives that I used in the hint suggests "a bit, (but I shouldn't get carried away)". Why do you feel it would be dative?
§2 - Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου
Post by Stephen Hughes » June 7th, 2014, 5:38 am
I realise §1 is still under consideration, but in anticipation of it being finished with soon, here is §2. Feel free to follow your own pace and route through this speech.
The speaker is elaborating on his previous points about envy / jealousy, and trying to distance himself from and to discredit the plaintiff / his accuser.
Λυσίας, ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου 24.2 wrote: καίτοι ὅστις τούτοις φθονεῖ οὓς οἱ ἄλλοι ἐλεοῦσι, τίνος ἂν ὑμῖν ὁ τοιοῦτος ἀποσχέσθαι δοκεῖ πονηρίας; εἰ μὲν γὰρ ἕνεκα χρημάτων με συκοφαντεῖ —— : εἰ δ᾽ ὡς ἐχθρὸν ἑαυτοῦ με τιμωρεῖται, ψεύδεται: διὰ γὰρ τὴν πονηρίαν αὐτοῦ οὔτε φίλῳ οὔτε ἐχθρῷ πώποτε ἐχρησάμην αὐτῷ
Hints for §2: (You could look at these after working through it yourself)
καίτοι - No real New Testament parallels, it introduces another point in the argument. LSJ "and yet", to mark an objection introduced by the speaker himself, freq. in Rhetorical questions
φθονεῖν -object in the dative[/size]
τίνος ... πονηρίας - these two are together
ὑμῖν ... δοκεῖ - these two are together
ἀποσχέσθαι - (+ genitive)
χρήματα - the only really useful birthday presents are the ones you can spend yourself
συκοφαντεῖν - bring false charges against (and offer to withdraw them if ...)
τιμωρεῖσθαι - (+ accusative & genitive) Acts 26:11 Καὶ κατὰ πάσας τὰς συναγωγὰς πολλάκις τιμωρῶν αὐτούς only specifies who was punished, but lacks the genitive specifying what they were being punished for
χρῆσθαι - treat χρῆσθαί <dative of a person> ὡς a <dative of a type/class of person>. NB. the ὡς is missing here.
*Lysias 2
Post by Wes Wood » June 7th, 2014, 9:48 pm
And yet whoever envies these people? Others have mercy on them. Of whatever evil do you think one such as this ???? ?-For if indeed on account of money he brings false charges against me-but if as his enemy he punishes me, he lies. For because of his evil, neither as a friend nor as an enemy did I conduct business with him.
I don't think I would've gotten that friend/enemy part without the hint. I would not expect to see a naked dative there. The beginning is strange also but I think I have the sense.