Source: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486683
Timestamp: 2019-11-20 15:07:49
Document Index: 501739039

Matched Legal Cases: ['art 103', 'art 103', 'art 103', 'art 103', 'art 103', 'art 103']

Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Fat Ultralight
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:54 pm Post subject: Fat Ultralight
I’m considering purchasing a Firestar II with a 503. It doesn’t have an N number. Owner tells me it qualifies for part 103 but I’m doubtful even with the added weight allowance for a ballistic parachute. From what I understand it can be registered as experimental light sport if I have documentation by the manufacturer that it meets the 51 percent rule. Do I have that right? Is this doable or is the airplane always going to be an illegal fat ultralight? Thanks in advance for any advice you can give.
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:10 pm Post subject: Fat Ultralight
No Firestar 2 will meet the Part 103 restrictions. Even the Firestar 1 will be very very difficult to do that with. If it was possible to build a Firestar that genuinely meets Part 103, Kolb would not have had any reason to develop the Firefly.
The FAA usually does NOTgo out looking to "bust" fat ultralights, they really try to look the other way and not be bothered. BUT the minute one of them sees the second seat behind the pilot seat they are going to have to do something. They can't look the other way with the number of seats like they can with just being "fat". With more than one seat they have to treat it like there could be a passenger injured or killed, flying with an un-licensed "pilot". They just cannot look the other way when thee "ultralight" has room for a passenger.
On Wed, 1/2/19, Sptom <Tjweeks(at)cox.net> wrote:
Subject: Fat Ultralight
Date: Wednesday, January 2, 2019, 5:54 PM
<Tjweeks(at)cox.net>
Iâ€™m considering purchasing a
Firestar II with a 503. It doesnâ€™t have an N
number. Owner tells me it qualifies for part 103 but
Iâ€™m doubtful even with the added weight allowance for
a ballistic parachute. From what I understand it can
be registered as experimental light sport if I have
documentation by the manufacturer that it meets the 51
percent rule. Do I have that right? Is this
doable or is the airplane always going to be an illegal fat
ultralight? Thanks in advance for any advice you can
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486671#486671
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:49 pm Post subject: Fat Ultralight
On 1/2/2019 7:54 PM, Sptom wrote:
Iâ€™m considering purchasing a Firestar II with a 503. It doesnâ€™t have an N number. Owner tells me it qualifies for part 103 but Iâ€™m doubtful even with the added weight allowance for a ballistic parachute. From what I understand it can be registered as experimental light sport if I have documentation by the manufacturer that it meets the 51 percent rule. Do I have that right? Is this doable or is the airplane always going to be an illegal fat ultralight? Thanks in advance for any advice you can give.
No option for registering as light sport; that option for 'fat
ultralites' ended years ago. You *MIGHT* get away with registering as
experimental amateur built, if you can convince an inspector that it
wasn't factory built, and the actual builder built it for 'education and
recreation', without any build logs. (Good luck...)
The one legal path that *might* work (depends on how knowledgeable your
inspector is) is experimental exhibition. No option for a 'repairman's
certificate', but any a&p can sign off the annuals, and you can still do
your own maintenance.
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:59 pm Post subject: Fat Ultralight
I dug out the w/b for the James A. Tripp FSII...445 lbs empty... It is likely a bit heavy(quite a bit??) ...I suspect that the std FSII should come in under 390...long way from 254 however... Herb
On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 8:08 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On Wed, 1/2/19, Sptom Tjweeks(at)cox.net wrote:
Tjweeks(at)cox.net
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:02 pm Post subject: Fat Ultralight
obviously one can buy paper work from a wrecked plane.. Not sure about the legality but it is done from time to time..Herb
On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 8:51 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:
> Iâ€™m considering purchasing a Firestar II with a 503. It doesnâ€™t have an N number. Owner tells me it qualifies for part 103 but Iâ€™m doubtful even with the added weight allowance for a ballistic parachute. From what I understand it can be registered as experimental light sport if I have documentation by the manufacturer that it meets the 51 percent rule. Do I have that right? Is this doable or is the airplane always going to be an illegal fat ultralight? Thanks in advance for any advice you can give.
ultralites' ended years ago. You MIGHT get away with registering as
The one legal path that might work (depends on how knowledgeable your
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Fat Ultralight
Thanks guys! So it must be flown as an ultralight unless one wants to jump through a bunch of FAA hoops to get a N number which seems like a long shot. I appreciate you input.
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:39 pm Post subject: Fat Ultralight
Tom do you have any information that this Firestar was built by the Kolb factory? Or was it built by a customer who bought the kit from Kolb? There may be hope for you... read on...
The Kolb Firestar KITS sold by the factory have been shown to meet the FAA definition of an Amateur Built Experimental. So a Kolb built from one of the factory kits MEETS the FAA's "51%" rule.
If the Kolb factory will furnish you with a letter saying that your Kolb, serial number XYZ, was sold as a KIT that meets the FAA's guidelines, then that aircraft will meet the FAA requirements for an amateur built aircraft. The FAA would very very likely be willing to issue an airworthiness certificate as an E-AB (Experimental - Amateur Built).
The only added advantage that you would get by proving that YOU built it form that kit is that you could apply for the "Repairman's Certificate" and do your own annual Condition Inspection.
However, even if you do not have that repairman certificate, your airplane would still qualify as an E-AB, get an N number, etc. But you would have to hire an A&P Mechanic to do the condition inspection.
Now here's the big sand trap you would have to avoid: DO NOT present this to the FAAA as a flying "Fat Ultralight" that you want to SWITCH over to an E-AB. That window of opportunity closed many years ago, and trying to do THAT will put you in regulatory quicksand.
What you need to do is present the situation to the FAA that you bought a Kolb Firestar 2 project that had been halfway built by one person, and then another person did some work on it, and then someone else, and then finally you bought it when it was almost done and you finished it. THEN you basically say to the FAA that you can NOT honestly claim that you built 51% of it, but that the Kolb factory has verified that it was originally a 51% kit, so it was in fact "amateur built". Just not by you. DO NOT EVER say that it flew at any time.
Under this circumstance, the FAA will allow an E-AB certificate of airworthiness to be issued, and a new N number for it, but they will not allow you to apply for the repairman certificate.
Without any doubt, the best way to do this is to use an FAA DAR (Designated Airworthiness Representative) to do the inspections and issue the approval for the AW certificate. It is well worth the $800-1500 to have a professional DAR do this.
Once you have applied for an N number with the FAA Aircraft Registration Branch in Oklahoma City, contact a local FAA-DAR that specializes in new E-AB certificates, tell them the story about how you bought a project airplane, show them the letter from Kolb verifying that this was not a factory built airplane, and have them swim through all the FAA paperwork.
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:30 pm Post subject: Fat Ultralight
The only option for registration open to you is Experimental Exhibition which is a lot more restrictive than Experimental Amateur Built. Unless the Kolb factory creates a Firestar II SLSA and sells a kit the way RV has done with their model 12 there is no way you can register it as Experimental Light Sport. That ship sailed in 2008.
On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 8:12 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
On Wed, 1/2/19, Sptom <Tjweeks(at)cox.net (Tjweeks(at)cox.net)> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Sptom"
<Tjweeks(at)cox.net (Tjweeks(at)cox.net)>
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:33 am Post subject: Fat Ultralight
The FAA liberalized the E E rules a number of years ago, removing the 300nm radius 'proficiency area' and home airport restrictions. The only practical distinction from EAB now is that there's no 51% rule for EE (!!) and there's no 'repairmans' certificate' for annual inspections, but that's offset by the fact that there's no type certificate, so only an A&P ticket is needed for annual signoffs (IA ticket not required).
Functionally, at the beginning of each year, you fax the FAA a list of all the 'events' you (might) plan to attend during the year (compiled from published calendars). All other flying is for 'proficiency', with only EAB-style restrictions on where you fly (avoid densely populated areas, etc).
On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 11:32 PM Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: Fat Ultralight
Good to know, I have been considering both options with my early FS from 1987. Not sure of the date first flown the date is on the drawing shipping tube. I am over weight enough to exclude most trailer friendly UL.
I looked at the firefly with the 250 limit, leaving me with one gallon.
Out of curiosity I weighed my plane and got 307#
with a 447.
Easier to fly a two seat plane solo all day.
I took LSA training and fuel load with a male instructor was always an issue, not with female instructors.
Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: Fat Ultralight
Victorbravo has given a very good way of doing what would be the best way to go about getting what you want, or make it look like an ultralight ( 1 seat) and fly it that way.