Source: http://mikebrandlyauctioneer.wordpress.com/2010/01/17/a-guide-for-auctioneers-selling-guns/
Timestamp: 2013-12-13 05:53:41
Document Index: 265129672

Matched Legal Cases: ['in fine', '§ 923', '§ 923', '§ 921', '§ 921', '§ 923']

A guide for auctioneers selling guns | Mike Brandly, Auctioneer Blog
A guide for auctioneers selling guns	17
Posted by Mike Brandly in Auction Law, Auction School, National Auctioneers Association	≈ 44 Comments
Tags18 years old, 21 years old, 3310, 4473, ATF, auction, auctioneer, auctions, Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act, Burkheimer, consignment, Federal Assault Weapons Ban, Federal Firearms License, FFL, Firearm Owners' Protection Act, firearms, Gun Control Act, gun locks, guns, hand gun, handgun, hold oneself out as a dealer, long gun, make a living in dealing, pistol, possess firearms, revolver, rifle, shotgun, straw buyer, unloaded	The gun market (demand) is high these days. In fact, it’s hard to think back to when there wasn’t a strong market for guns. Auctioneers often find themselves in situations where clients have guns to sell, and wish the auctioneer’s help. Auctioneers need to be careful, and thus this guide.
Being careful is paramount. Only one case need be talked about to remind all auctioneers that selling guns at auction requires strict adherence to all applicable laws. Thus, we have the Burkheimer case:
Auctioneer R.C. Burkheimer, of North East, M.D., tried to do everything right for a gun auction he had in 1978, but he ended up going to jail.
He sold the inventory of a small gun shop owned by a licensed gun dealer who was also a member of the Maryland State Police. Because the shop was small, Burkheimer suggested they bring the guns to his auction gallery where they would have ample parking, seating and restroom facilities.
The Auctioneer did almost everything right-the dealer stayed on site with the guns at all times and filled out all the paperwork. But the Auctioneer missed one detail: the dealer transferred ownership of the firearms at the auction gallery. Federal law says that transfer of ownership must occur at the place where the Federal Firearms License is issued, which would have been the dealer’s shop.
Because Burkheimer didn’t personally hold a FFL and he conducted the transfer of firearms on his premises, he was convicted of a felony. He spent 18 months in a federal penitentiary and sustained $250,000 in fines and legal fees. Do we have your attention?
The sale of guns is regulated, first, by the federal government in the United States. Then, states can have (and do have) additional laws that regulate the sale and/or transfer of guns. Too, some local laws have been enacted by cities, counties, townships, etc. Auctioneers need to be attentive to Brall the laws that are applicable for any sale or transfer of guns.
First, most notably, there are four federal gun acts to consider:
The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (Pub.L. 103-159, 107 Stat. 1536) was an Act of the United States Congress that, for the first time, instituted federal background checks on firearm purchasers in the United States. It was signed into law by President Bill Clinton on November 30, 1993, and went into effect on February 28, 1994. The Act was named after James Brady, who was shot by John Hinckley, Jr. during an attempted assassination of President Ronald Reagan on March 30, 1981.
The Federal Assault Weapons Ban (AWB) (or Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act) was a subtitle of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, a federal law in the United States that included a prohibition on the sale to civilians of certain semi-automatic firearms, so called “assault weapons.” There was no legal definition of “assault weapons” in the U.S. prior to the law’s enactment. The ten-year ban was passed by Congress on September 13, 1994 and was signed into law by President Bill Clinton the same day. The ban only applied to weapons manufactured after the date of the ban’s enactment. The Federal Assault Weapons Ban expired September 13, 2004, as part of the law’s sunset provision. It is important only here because there are recent efforts to reenact similar AWB laws.
Now, here is the exact text of Title 18 § 923 and Rule 96-2 of the United States Code:
18 U.S.C. § 923 (a): ENGAGING IN THE BUSINESS OF DEALING IN FIREARMS (Auctioneers)
Auctioneers who regularly conduct consignment-type auctions of firearms, for example, held every 1-2 months, on behalf of firearms owners where the auctioneer takes possession of the firearms pursuant to a consignment contract with the owner of the firearms giving the auctioneer authority to sell the firearms and providing for a commission to be paid by the owner upon sale of the firearms are required to obtain a license as a dealer in firearms.
ATF Rul. 96-2
The auctioneers’ association stated that their members generally conduct two types of auctions: estate-type auctions and consignment auctions. In estate-type auctions, articles to be auctioned, including firearms, are sold by the executor of the estate of an individual. In these cases the firearms belong to and are possessed by the executor. The auctioneer acts as an agent of the executor and assists the executor in finding buyers for the firearms. The firearms are possessed by the estate and their sale to third parties is controlled by the estate. The auctioneer is paid a commission on the sale of each firearm by the estate at the conclusion of the auction.
The term “dealer” is defined at 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(11)(A) to include any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail. The term “engaged in the business” as applied to a dealer in firearms means a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms. A dealer can be engaged in the business” without taking title to the firearms that are sold. However, the term does not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms. 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(21)(C).
In the case of consignment-type auctions held on a regular basis, for example, every 1-2 months, where persons consign their firearms to the auctioneer for sale pursuant to an agreement as described above, the auctioneer would be “engaging in the business” and would require a license. The auctioneer would be disposing of firearms as a regular course of trade or business within the definition of a “dealer” under §_921(a)(11)(A) and must comply with the licensing requirements of the law.
Persons who conduct estate-type auctions at which the auctioneer assists the estate in selling the estate’s firearms, and the firearms are possessed and transferred by the estate, do not require a Federal firearms license.
Held further: Persons who regularly conduct consignment-type auctions, for example, held every 1-2 months, where the auctioneer takes possession of the firearms pursuant to a consignment contract giving the auctioneer the exclusive right and authority to sell the firearms at a location, time and date to be selected by the auctioneer and providing for a commission to be paid upon sale are required to obtain a license as a dealer in firearms pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 923(a). [ATFB 96-2 101]
Here’s some rules auctioneers can remember:
For auctioneers without an FFL
For auctioneers with an FFL acting as auctioneers without an FFL:
Don’t sell a short gun (i.e. pistol or revolver) to anyone under the age of 21.
Only assist someone with the sale of their guns (and not repeatedly assist someone with the sale of their guns), without taking possession of them, with the seller maintaining possession of the guns until they are transferred to the buyers.
Auctioneers with an FFL, acting as an FFL:
Only transfer guns from their licensed location. Guns could be “sold” at another location, but would have to be moved back to the licensed location for ultimate transfer by the licensee.
Use the ATF form 4473 to have a background check initiated for a pending gun transfer. The ATF will respond with a “proceed,” “delay” or “deny.”
Use the ATF form 3310 “Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols or Revolvers” when selling two or more short guns to one buyer within a five day period.
Transfer long guns to in-state buyers or out-of-state buyers either directly or via another FFL, so long as state and local law involved (the state/local laws where the gun is sold, and the state/local laws where the gun is going) doesn’t prohibit such a transfer.
Transfer short guns directly to in-state buyers, or via another FFL for out-of-state buyers, so long as state and local law involved (the state/local laws where the gun is sold, and the state/local laws where the gun is going) doesn’t prohibit such a transfer.
Maintain a gun dealer log book noting all transfers.
Make sure all guns are unloaded, and secured so they cannot be loaded by someone else.
Have gun locks available to buyers (at no charge.)
Auctioneers with an FFL may (and auctioneers without an FFL may not):
One area not covered in the federal code is antique firearms. Auctioneers can sell to out-of-state buyers without a license, as long as the firearm meets the federal definition. An antique is described in the U.S. Firearms Code as any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock or percussion cap manufactured in or before 1898, or a replica of such item. Auctioneers can also sell a firearm without a license if it uses a ring-fire or conventional center-fire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States or is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
Another somewhat confusing issue for auctioneers is when a court issues a court order to sell guns — and the order is not in compliance with federal law. Customarily, court orders override and supersede law. However, if the court is a state court or local court, they would not have the authority to override federal law per Article IV of the United States Constitution. A federal court order would likely suffice as an exception to federal laws regarding the sale or transfer of guns.
In almost all cases, it would be advisable for auctioneers to secure competent legal counsel if they find they are ordered by any court to sell guns, and especially if that court order is contrary to any federal, state or local gun laws.
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Romey said:	December 19, 2011 at 3:18 pm	Question, as a Auctioneer without a FFL, can I hold a one time consignment gun auction at a fairgrounds and have a FFL dealer there on site to do background checks ect or do I personally have to have the FFL?
Mike Brandly, Auctioneer, CAI, AARE said:	December 19, 2011 at 6:36 pm	Based on your question specifically, the answer is, “Yes.” Although there are issues:
No guns would be able to be distributed to any purchasers at the fairgrounds. FFL’s may only distribute guns from their licensed location.
All guns would have to remain in the possession of the owners and/or the FFL at all times. If they dropped the guns off the night before, and the FFL didn’t stay the night, you might well be deemed acting as an FFL without a license.
Even if you had an FFL, you couldn’t distribute guns at the fairgrounds since that probably wouldn’t be your licensed location either.
Best solution? Get an FFL and hold the auction at your licensed location. If not, find an auctioneer with an FFL and refer the guns to him or her.
Tom Weitbrecht said:	January 3, 2012 at 5:40 pm	Hi Mike-
Thank you for this valuable information. On a matter unrelated to auctions, I have attended “Gun Shows” where FFLs routinely sell all types of weapons from a “Trade Show” type of environment. The FFLs conduct the required FBI instant background check and filled out the necessary forms on site. Many lawful holders of MA firearms licenses purchase and take delivery firearms, new & used, at these shows. Are there special allowances for gun shows, or are the FFLs who routinely participate operating in violation of the law? Thank you for your assistance.
Mike Brandly, Auctioneer, CAI, AARE said:	January 3, 2012 at 6:01 pm	Great Q Tom. Here’s the ATF’s view on this http://www.atf.gov/training/firearms/ffl-educational-seminars/transcript-gun-show-dos-and-donts.html
Tom Weitbrecht said:	January 3, 2012 at 9:10 pm	That’s excellent information. Thank you for responding so quickly. It’s good to know there are situations where the ATF considers a given “environment” an extension of the “Place of business” within certain parameters. Back to the subject of auctions, my firm was recently approached by an FFL who has a relationship with a MA municipal police department that would like to conduct a sale of confiscated weapons. Our responsibility as an auction firm would be to register the bidders, collect earnest deposits, call/ clerk the sale, then cash out the winning bidders. The FFL would handle the inventory in/ out, descriptions, paperwork, FBI checks, biometric scans and delivery to the winning bidders. The municipal police department would like to conduct the auction at their facility. Would the FFL need to complete the paperwork and deliver the firearms from the facility for which they are licensed following the sale, or are there special circumstances for the sale of police confiscated firearms at auction? Given the description of our responsibilities, are we proposing to perform any functions that should be handled by the FFL? Thank you again for your assistance.
Mike Brandly, Auctioneer, CAI, AARE said:	January 3, 2012 at 11:51 pm	Tom,
From my understanding, the FFL would have to distribute from his/her licensed location. I think the “Gun show” exemption is just that.
Tom Weitbrecht said:	January 4, 2012 at 5:56 pm	I’ll double check with the ATF and Firearms Record bureau as the auction draws closer, but I do believe you are correct. Your time and expertise is much appreciated. Thanks again.
Jamey said:	January 29, 2012 at 10:09 pm	Mike, I am sorry if this question seems redundant but we have an auction house where he hold bi-weekly consignment auctions of collectibles, antiques and household items. My partner is wanting to have a gun and ammo auction. But if I’m reading this correctly we can’t have a consignment gun auction because we don’t have a FFL. Is that correct. Is there any way we can have a gun auction without getting a FFL? I don’t anticipate us doing another one any time this year. Thanks for all of your help. Jamey
Mike Brandly, Auctioneer, CAI, AARE said:	January 29, 2012 at 10:26 pm	Hi Jamey,
I assume your auction house is in the United States? If so, then yes, you must have an FFL to have a “consignment gun auction” as this constitutes engaging in the business. I would suggest the risks of going ahead and having it without an FFL are clearly outweighed by the possibility of a substantial fine and/or prison time.
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Steve Walton said:	April 20, 2012 at 1:43 am	If I have a consignment auction (not in an auction house) with hundreds of other items and 4 people want to have me sell some guns for them, they bring it to the auction, they maintain possession at all times, before, during and after the sale until they transfer it to a buyer, AND if I or any of my auction crew never touch the gun AND the consignment contract is a non-exclusive contract (they could sell the gun prior to the auction), can you see any violation of Federal Firearms laws? As I understand it, I am merely assisting the seller in obtaining the highest price for their guns. As I have read all of your earlier responses, I don’t see any violations by doing the auction in this manner. I plan on doing just that this weekend and would appreciate a fast response to my email address.. Thank you
Mike Brandly, Auctioneer, CAI, AARE said:	April 20, 2012 at 7:14 am	Steve,
I would be careful. Even though you would not be taking possession of the guns, you could be perceived as “engaged in the business” due to your consignment auction.
The ATF regularily uses the words “consignment auction” to signal a requirement of an FFL. Becasuse such events are well publisized, it’s difficult to argue that you wouldn’t be “holding youself out” as a gun dealer.
Jack Dodson said:	July 15, 2012 at 1:31 pm	Great blog keep writing more blogs in the future!
Steve Mabry said:	August 21, 2012 at 3:04 pm	Mike,
I was recently approached by a local attorney to contact a client of his and sell about 30 hand and long guns. No destructive type, mostly collector and ” everyday” pieces. The property is in a trust and the trustee would be hiring me. Since I have an auction gallery, the trustee would prefer to offer the guns here, (parking and security issues at the residence), along with the other articles from the trust. As long as I do not have any other consignors in this auction, could I offer the guns at my gallery?
One issue I see, is that; if this is not considered an “estate” auction, I could not take possession of the guns and therefore would have to ask the seller to bring them in the day of the auction, stay with them the entire time, and deliver them personally to the buyer.
The trustee is a woman (the original deceased trustee’s wife), and she does not want to be present for the auction. She wants her sons to handle it. I believe they’ll need a power of attorney, so I’m checking with the attorney.
I plan to make a log of each gun (model, make, serial #, buyer, etc) and keep it on file so I can show the process used.
Does this sound like it would be in compliance with the law?
Mike Brandly, Auctioneer, CAI, AARE said:	August 21, 2012 at 5:33 pm	Almost all sounds reasonable, considering you aren’t an FFL.
The only issue that concerns me is that the “owner” can’t (or refuses to) be with the guns the entire time, which means you … by virtue of your facility … would be in possession.
Designating someone such as with a POA or even a transfer of ownership so the “owner” is with the guns the entire time may be viewed similar to a “fraudulent transfer” type maneuver — especially if the net proceeds go back to the trust, demonstrating the transfer or POA was done merely to avoid the law.
Possibly the son could be designated in the trust as a co-trustee? Or, maybe the trustee could reconsider not wanting to be at the auction?
Lastly, you will undoubtedly have buyers from out of state, concealed carry people and FFL’s wanting to buy or buying, all with their particular view on the law. Careful!
Steve Mabry said:	August 23, 2012 at 9:15 am	Thanks Mike. I think I will try to get the trustee to attend, stay with the guns, and distribute them to the new owners. I also plan to advertise that buyers must be from Ohio and/or have an FFL. (and of course meet all state and federal requirements)
Vaughn said:	January 27, 2013 at 12:28 am	I and a business partner are considering forming an LLC for the purpose of creating a gun/ammo/outdoor gear auction site specifically for people within our state borders. This will conceivably make the transfer of long guns easier between our buyers and sellers, as an FFL transfer only has to be done when a long gun is mailed or transfered out of state. Of course, pistols must always be FFL transferred.
As the host of the online auctions, are we required to have an FFL? I was thinking we did not, but wanted to check with you to make sure. Thanks very much for the excellent and thorough writeup.
msoutdoorauctions.com
Mike Brandly, Auctioneer, CAI, AARE said:	January 27, 2013 at 9:14 am	In regard to you needing to have an FFL, much of that would depend on if (1) you possess — at any time — any of these guns which are intended for resale and (2) if you hold yourself out as a, “gun dealer.”
There are already online models in business similar to what you describe, and I believe they act as a “broker” for the guns, and do not have an FFL?
Vaughn said:	January 27, 2013 at 9:59 pm	That was my thought as well, Mike, but as I read your blog, I knew quickly that you knew more than I, so I thought it best to defer to you.
Many thanks for the quick response. Have a great week.
Russ said:	January 31, 2013 at 10:05 pm	In a situation where an auctioneer sells at auction a storage unit and the buyer finds a rifle in the unit, what are the auctioneers responsibilities. Would the ATF have any issues with this transaction
Mike Brandly, Auctioneer, CAI, AARE said:	January 31, 2013 at 10:37 pm	Great question, Russ. It would appear to me that you, the auctioneer, never took possession of the gun(s), and therefore the transaction is basically between the owner of the contents of the unit (sold through a forced sale situation) and the buyer of the contents. This would as such constitute a private sale in respect to guns, which is legal (at this moment) without any requirement for an FFL’s involvement nor background check.
Paul said:	February 1, 2013 at 5:22 pm	Yes Mike that my be true but I dont think an auctioneer should be braging about a buyer who found 12 guns in a unit that they sold in order to bring more people to an auction. I do believe that local authorites my have a different opinion. All those guns should be checked out by the proper channels and the buyer better have the proper paper work in order to be able to receive and transport guns .
With storage auctions you always have buyers from other states going across state lines. I also believe that an auctioneer should not brag about he or she sold a unit for 400.00 with 12 guns in side even though it was after the fact just to attract buyers. Allow Russ to tell you the whole story.
Mike Brandly, Auctioneer, CAI, AARE said:	February 1, 2013 at 5:40 pm	Thanks for your follow-up. If the story is fabricated, or the auctioneer “placed” the guns in the unit to attract attention, then it’s not about guns, but about unethical practice.
The guns laws in the United States (Federal) do not require any checking of the guns, nor paperwork from the buyer, for private sales. Of course, if it is an FFL transfer, then the 4473 is required, but the actual firearm(s) are still not “checked.”
There are a few states and/or cities that register the guns themselves, or verify serial numbers, etc., but those are the exceptions.
Tom said:	February 1, 2013 at 6:03 pm	Hi Mike-
As a professional auctioneer who has sold more than 15,000 storage units in the Northeast and who is aware of the exact events that have transpired and sparked Paul’s response, I concur with Paul. The issue at hand is the auctioneer utilized a prior sale where a buyer reportedly found 12 rifles in a storage unit, then used that as a marketing tool, by touting a buyer had found 12 rifles in a unit, to attract buyers to future auctions. Advertising 12 rifles had been found in a storage unit is falsely setting hopes that the same will occur at a subsequent sales when the auctioneer has no knowledge, or ability to make such a representation.
Here in New England, we have states with extremely tight gun control laws. If a buyer in ME who was not licensed in MA had taken the rifles across the MA state line as an end user, for example, they would be subject to a one year mandatory jail sentence in MA. The issues are not only federal, they are regional and should be handled as such. I hold a class A, unrestricted high capacity license to carry in MA, as well as concealed carry licenses in NH and RI. I’m a licensed auctioneer in MA, NH, RI, VT and ME and am a NRA certified Pistol Instructor, as well as a MA Police certified firearms instructor.
Mike Brandly, Auctioneer, CAI, AARE said:	February 1, 2013 at 6:14 pm	Now I have a clearer picture as to what happened. Yes, as I noted, there are some states with laws on gun registration and the like …
Is this auctioneer saying, “you will find the same?” or “you might find the same?” Unless the “12 rifles” was staged or just fabricated, then saying to people that it happened, and “you too might get lucky” isn’t illegal nor unethical.
Anthony said:	February 7, 2013 at 12:57 am	Mike, I own a auction house in Alabama and do not have a FFL. I have asked a pawn shop that is next door to me to handle all of the transactions at their location. My plan is auction the guns at my place of business, after the auction I will take the guns to the pawn shop (FFL) , the winning bidders will pick up the guns there where the transaction will take place. Let me know if you see any legal issues with the idea.
Mike Brandly, Auctioneer, CAI, AARE said:	February 7, 2013 at 9:17 am	Anthony.
I think your plan is fairly good. However, have the FFL at your location, and have him or her take the guns back to his location next door to complete the transaction.
If you take them, or have them at your auction, you are technically in possession and may need an FFL if he or she isn’t there with those guns.
Of course, if you have an FFL, then you don’t need to take them anywhere.
Christopher said:	February 13, 2013 at 9:49 pm	Dear Mike, first off, thank you for your article. I have found it to be very much informative and easy to follow. I am an auctioneer in upstate New York and do not have an FFL. I have sold firearms in the past at auction acting as an agent or third party for an executor of an estate. Here’s my predicament – my father passed away last year and my mother would like for me to auction off a few of his rifles. I won’t be charging her a commission. I’m assuming she automatically becomes the executor of my father’s estate because they were married at the time of his death. With this being said, if she retains possession of the rifles and personally hands the firearms to the successful bidders at auction’s end, do you consider this a conflict of interest or more importantly, a scenario that I could potentially be breaking any laws. Any input would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!
Mike Brandly, Auctioneer, CAI, AARE said:	February 13, 2013 at 11:34 pm	Christopher,
Thank you for your kind words. I think as you described, you never take possession of the firearms, so you are fine without an FFL — that is so long as you don’t accept further consignments of firearms from others in this same auction, thus making this a consignment auction.
Secondly, I don’t see any conflict of interest whatsoever. In fact, I see concert of interest; you have your mother’s (and deceased father’s) interests in mind, and so does your mother.
Christopher said:	February 14, 2013 at 8:56 am	Thank you for your quick response Mr. Brandly. You have been of great service to myself and our fellow auctioneers.
Tom said:	February 26, 2013 at 7:43 pm	Hi Mike,
Great stuff. If an FFL created a website to advertise guns that were to be sold at a live auction conducted by that same FFL, would they have to be deemed as “consignment” and therefore be subject to the 30 day waiting period imposed on consigned firearms by California DOJ, or could they be auctioned off and transferred as a private party sale between the buyer and seller using the FFL? Could the FFL charge a fee for posting the proposed auction items on the website, and auctioning them off at the live auction that was an additional charge outside of the standard transfer fees?
Mike Brandly, Auctioneer, CAI, AARE said:	February 26, 2013 at 9:09 pm	This site seems to address the 30 day, or private party sale issue in California: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Buying_and_selling_firearms_in_California#Buying_from_a_Private_Party_-_PPT
So far as the fees and charges, I see nothing that prohibits one from charging, essentially, whatever one wants to …
seth said:	March 11, 2013 at 11:56 am	Hello Mike, I have been contacted as an auctioneer to put together a proposal for a sale. THe Lady that called me is a recent widow and has acquired her husbands possessions. Some of those possessions is a collection of guns, not sure the exact number. She would like to have an on site auction at her home and sell the firearms. I attend sales on a regular basis where they sale 3-4 guns and take no comsignments. Since she is selling these as her own possesions, acquired form her late husband, what is the proper way to handle selling these guns. I understood most of what has been said previously, but this is technically not an “estate” she owns them now, and she is 5 ft 1 and 67 years of age and it would nearly be impossible for us not to touch the firearms while we sell them. Appreciate your help. By the way, your remedial class offered to help pass the auctioneer exam is the best money ever spent by me.
Mike Brandly, Auctioneer, CAI, AARE said:	March 12, 2013 at 10:21 am	Thanks, Seth. The ATF uses the word, ‘estate” meaning onsite, not dead. So, as far as they are concerned, this would be an estate auction. It’s not that you can’t touch them, but more that she has to be there the entire time, maintaining actual (or constructive) possession.
Russ said:	March 12, 2013 at 2:28 pm	Hi Mike, Do you have the exact definition of “Estate” from the ATF?
Mike Brandly, Auctioneer, CAI, AARE said:	March 12, 2013 at 2:32 pm	See http://mikebrandlyauctioneer.wordpress.com/2010/01/17/a-guide-for-auctioneers-selling-guns/ and there is a paragraph that starts out: “In the case of estate-type auctions …
Kelly said:	May 30, 2013 at 8:06 pm	Hi Mike! Just wanted to thank you for your blog. It’s great! Nice job! I have a question for you. I understand the difference about “consignment” and “estate” auctions and what needs to be done, but I am not finding clarification if this is the same rules for online “consignment” or “estate” auctions. All our auctions are done online and it is general consignments from the public or estates. No guns are ever on our premises and remain part of the estate. Can a gun be auctioned online as part of estate and indicated as so? NO shipping is allowed and the buyer picks up the gun from the “estate”, not at our location. Just wondering because they do not clarify between auctions and online auctions or if it is the same rules.
Mike Brandly, Auctioneer, CAI, AARE said:	May 30, 2013 at 10:41 pm	Great question. No real difference between a live auction and online so far as guns — thus no clarification in the law. So long as the “estate” retains possession, and the gun goes from the “estate” to the new owner, no FFL needed. That is, unless you hold yourself out as a “gun auctioneer” or “make a substantial living selling guns” or the like.
Now, since you are selling online, you would likely have the issue of out-of-state buyers. Some out-of-state transactions are prohibited by state law. That might limit some buyers from participating, unless the gun went through an FFL.
Kelly said:	May 31, 2013 at 9:25 am	Thanks Mike! That is another stipulation for us…no out of state bidders allowed on guns. We do not do many and it is just every now and then we have a gun or two as part of an estate, and of course, we refuse to get involved with handguns and assault rifles.
Another thing that we did not find real clear is about payments. Can we collect the payment from the buyer on behalf of the estate even though the buyer picks up directly from the estate or do payments absolutely have to go directly to the estate by the buyer? On normal auction or estate items we collect payments because we offer more payment options for buyers and seller protection. Not sure if we can do that on guns though and if it is best to stay clear of that with such items. Thanks for you tips!
Mike Brandly, Auctioneer, CAI, AARE said:	May 31, 2013 at 9:27 am	Another good Q. I think accepting payment would likely not constitute “engaging in the business,” and therefore be okay without an FFL. If it did then maybe PayPal, or a bank would need an FFL?
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