Court Opinion

ID: 9464186
Source: CourtListenerOpinion
Date Created: 2023-08-04 23:27:00.403093+00
Date Added: 2024-06-11T17:38:30.025522
License: Public Domain

EDWARDS, Circuit Judge.
On November 18, 1976, a panel of this court1 released an opinion reversing two perjury convictions of appellant Doss and remanding them to the District Court for dismissal of the perjury indictments, 545 F.2d 548. The panel opinion held that the facts in the case showed “an abuse of the grand jury process ... by the United States Attorney. . . , [because] appellant had been twice secretly indicted and was unwarned of those facts. [but] the United States Attorney undertook substantial questioning of appellant about the subject matter of the secret indictments.”
The holding of the case was set forth as follows:
Where a substantial purpose of calling an indicted defendant before a grand jury is to question him secretly and without counsel present without his being informed of the nature and cause of the accusation about a crime for which he stands already indicted, the proceeding is an abuse of process which violates both the Sixth Amendment and the due process clause of the Fifth Amendment. Indictments for perjurious answers given in such a proceeding must be quashed because the proceeding itself is void.
A footnote pertaining to this holding was appended which read as follows:
We make no comment upon what result would flow from calling a defendant indicted for one crime to appear and give evidence before a grand jury upon a wholly different and separable offense, since no such facts are before us.
Subsequent to the issuance of the panel opinion, the United States Attorney filed a petition for rehearing and a suggestion for rehearing en banc. A majority of the active judges of the court having voted in favor of rehearing en banc, and all issues previously submitted having been reconsidered by the court as a whole, the views previously expressed in the panel opinion are reiterated as set forth hereafter, except for the footnote referred to above. For the advice of the United States Attorneys in the four states of our Circuit, we also consider the question left open by the footnote in the panel opinion and express the view that where a defendant is indicted for a particular crime, that fact does not prevent his being called before a grand jury to give evidence upon a wholly different and separable offense so long as he is not questioned about the offense for which he stands indicted.
The facts in this case, due largely to appellant Doss’ extensive criminal activity, are complex ones. After Doss had been convicted in three separate jury trials on a variety of felony charges resulting in cumulative sentences totaling 15 years, he was also tried on an indictment consisting of four counts of perjury based on his testimony before a federal grand jury. Count I *267was dismissed by the District Judge. At jury trial appellant was found not guilty on Count II, but was found guilty on Counts III and IV. The District Judge sentenced him on Counts III and IV to three years in the penitentiary to be served concurrently with each other and with other longer sentences. (See Appendix A for indictments.)
The principal problem in this appeal arises from the fact that appellant’s testimony before the grand jury took place after he had been the subject of two sealed indictments.
One indictment alleged:
On or about the 26th day of January 1972, in the Western District of Tennessee, Western Division, ----VINCENT MORAN DOSS--'— did cause Pául Patterson to keep and conceal in his possession, and to transport through the Western District of Tennessee-fifty (50) counterfeit Twenty ($20.00) Dollar Federal Reserve Notes, Serial No. F29392932A, Series 1969, bearing the seal of the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta, Georgia, of a purported face value of approximately One Thousand ($1,000.00) Dollars, made after the similitude of obligations issued under the authority of the United States, in violation of Title 18, United States Code, § 472.
The other secret indictment read:
On or about the 5th day of November 1971, in the Western District of Tennessee, Western Division, ----VINCENT MORAN DOSS---did knowingly cause Nolan Ray Williamson and Paul Patterson to possess with intent to distribute approximately twenty thousand (20,000) capsules made up of a substance containing amphetamines, a controlled substance listed in Schedule II, § 812, Title 21, United States Code, in violation of Title 21, United States Code § 841(a).
When Doss was called before the grand jury, the Assistant United States Attorney informed him that he was “a target” of criminal investigations and had a constitutional right to remain silent. Doss was given full Miranda-type warnings and was allowed to consult with his lawyer who was present outside the grand jury room. He was not, however, advised that he was already under two indictments by that same grand jury. And, of course, he was not allowed to have counsel present with him in the grand jury room.
Appellant Doss refused on Fifth Amendment grounds to answer a number of questions. He did, however, answer many questions, four of which resulted in his indictment for perjury. One of these pertained to a statement the government alleged as a basis for Count I of the perjury indictment to the effect that he (Doss) had never had any business dealings with Paul E. Patterson, when in fact he purchased a controlled substance, 20,000 amphetamines, on or about November 6,1971, from Paul E. Patterson. See Appendix A. The 20,000 amphetamines referred to in the first count of the perjury indictment were the same 20,-000 capsules containing amphetamine which were the subject of the secret drug indictment against Doss. In the course of the grand jury proceedings, Doss was asked the following questions:
Q Now, do you know a person by the name of Larry Jamison?
A Yes, sir.
Q How do you know Larry Jamison?
A I really don’t know. I met Larry Jamison many years ago, I’d say back in the fifties, but I don’t know how I knew him.
Q Did you meet him here in Memphis?
A I don’t think so. I met him in Cairo, Illinois, when I first met him.
Q Do you know that Larry Jamison has been convicted in federal court?
A No, no.
Q Do you have any business dealings with Larry Jamison?
A No, sir.
Q Do you know a person by the name of Paul E. Patterson?
A Oxford, Mississippi?
Q Yes, sir. How do you know Mr. Patterson?
*268A I’m not sure. I met Mr. Patterson — I don’t know, I don’t remember where I met him.
Q Do you have any business dealings with him, or is it a personal relationship?
A No.
Q Pardon?
A What did you say?
Q Do you have any business dealing with Mr. Patterson, or is it just a personal relationship?
A Could I speak to my attorney?
A Yes.
(Witness leaves grand jury room)
THE FOREMAN: You are still under oath, sir.
A Upon advice of my counsel, I have been instructed not to answer any questions which might tend to incriminate me. I invoke my privileges granted or guaranteed by the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States.
Q That has reference to the last question that I asked you, is that right?
A Yes.
Q Do you know a man named Nolan Ray Williamson?
A Yes.
Q How do you know Nolan Ray Williamson?
A Well, I met him, I guess, in about 1967 or 68 when he was in Cairo. At the time, he was looking for some kind of business, nightclub business or something, I don’t know; I just was around the places that he was and got acquainted with him.
Q Do you have a friendly relationship with him?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever have any business dealings with him?
A Can I talk to my lawyer?
Q Yes.
(Witness leaves grand jury room)
THE FOREMAN: You are still under oath.
A Upon advice of my counsel, I have been instructed not to answer any questions which might tend to incriminate me. I invoke my privilege granted or given or guaranteed by the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States.
Q So far as you know, have you always known Nolan Ray Williamson to be a truthful person?
A Truthful?
Q To the extent that you know.
A I just wouldn’t know, I don’t know.
Q Did he ever, to your knowledge, lie to you?
A I just wouldn’t know.
Q Do you think this grand jury should believe what he would tell this grand jury?
A I can't answer that, I can’t say.
Q If, under oath, he were to tell the grand jury some things about yourself, do you think this grand jury should believe him?
A Well, it would depend on what it was. I don’t know.
Q If it had anything to do with criminal dealings, should this grand jury believe him?
A Could I speak to my lawyer?
Q Yes.
(Witness leaves grand jury room)
THE FOREMAN: You are still under oath, sir.
A I do not know about him.
Q All right, the grand jury will have to do whatever the grand jury feels it is called upon to do, is that right?
A I’m sure.
The importance of these questions to the government’s secret indictment of Doss on the amphetamine count is simply that the three men about whom he was ques*269tioned above were the three principal figures in the illegal amphetamine transaction, all of whom were called by the government to testify against Doss at his trial on the amphetamine charge.2
Larry Jamison’s relationship is vividly portrayed by his testimony during the course of the Doss drug trial:
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. PARRISH:
Q. Would you state your full name, please?
A. Larry Thomas Jamison.
Q. Mr. Jamison, where is your residence?
A. Tunica, Mississippi.
!{! * ¡Jí # * S|C
Q. Approximately how long have you been knowing Mr. Doss?
A. Well, off and on about ten years.
Q. You have been knowing him about ten years, and you met him in Cairo, Illinois?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know Paul E. “Pep” Patterson?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. About how long have you known him?
A. About two and a half or three years.
Q. Did you ever introduce Mr. Doss to Mr. Patterson?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. How come you to introduce them?
A. Mr. Patterson wanted me to call Mr. Doss, and he wanted to meet him, and I called Mr. Doss, and he wanted to buy some pills from him.
Q. You say Mr. Patterson wanted to meet Mr. Doss?
A. Yes, sir.
* * * * * *
*270Q. As a result of that did you call Mr. Doss?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. What did you tell Mr. Doss?
A. I told Mr. Doss if he would come down there Mr. Patterson wanted to meet him, and he could furnish him with some pills if he wanted them.
Q. Who brought .up the subject of pills, you or Mr. Doss?
A. I did.
Q. What did Mr. Doss say?
A. He said he would like to buy some, and he would come on down.
Q. Did he come down?
A. Yes, sir, he did, he came to my house.
Q. Now, how soon was that after you contacted him?
A. He came that night.
Q. Was your house where then?
A. In Memphis on Airways.
Q. When Mr. Doss came to your house did you go anywhere else?
A. I went to Oxford with him, and called Mr. Patterson and went out to the trailer and met Mr. Patterson out there.
$ * % $ % #
Q. Did you introduce one to the other?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And what transpired in your presence?
A. Well, Mr. Patterson and Mr. Doss talked, they stepped outside and talked, and I was in the trailer. Naturally I don’t know what they talked about. Then Mr. Patterson left and was gone quite some time and came back.
Q. Did you hear any conversation or any discussion about pills?
A. Well, I heard Mr. Patterson say he couldn’t get any that night, or something like that.
* * * sk * *
Q. Approximately how long was Mr. Patterson gone?
A. Approximately an hour and a half or two hours.
sfc sk sfc * * *
Q. You heard him tell Mr. Doss he wasn’t able to get any that night?
A. Yes, sir, that’s right.
Q. Did you hear anything about the future?
A. Only Mr. Patterson told him he would bring some to him.
Q. That’s some pills?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether or not Mr. Doss replied that he was interested in him bringing them?
A. I just overheard what was said, he said he would be — he told him to bring them on.
Q. Now, approximately when was this?
A. Oh, I think it was in the fall of ’71, I believe it was — sometime the last part of ’71.
Nolan Williamson’s testimony concerning the government’s drug charge against Doss was brief:
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. PARRISH:
# # # # * *
Q. Mr. Williamson, were you convicted in federal court in Atlanta in 1972 of an allegation made in an indictment returned by the Grand Jury, and involving your possession, with intent to sell, certain amphetamines?
A. Yes.
# * * * * #
Q. If I were to ask you any questions that might relate to any relationship which you might have, or have had in the past, with Vincent Moran “Red” Doss, would you refuse to answer those questions because of a Fifth Amendment right that you would claim?
A. I definitely would.
Paul E. Patterson was the principal witness against Doss in relation to both the drug and the counterfeit charges. His testimony, quoted in the Joint Appendix of the joint trial, extends over 44 pages and it is clear that after Paul Patterson had been arrested in the early part of 1972 and had *271pled guilty to a 48-count drug indictment and another indictment for illegal possession of an automatic weapon, Patterson became an informant for the government. Thereafter asked what he had told government agents at the first meeting after his conversion to the informer role, he responded:
A. I told them Mr. Doss had bought twenty thousand RJS’s from me over the phone, and agreed to pay me, and didn’t pay me.
Q. And the amount, was that discussed?
A. Yes, sir, it was supposed to be six thousand dollars, but being as he got into it on the other end I agreed to take forty-five hundred.
The transcript of this trial makes clear that “20,000 RJS’s” were 20,000 black amphetamine capsules which were controlled substances and illegal to sell. The transcript of the trial also makes clear that Doss bought these for $6,000 from Paul Patterson and made an arrangement to sell them in Atlanta. Patterson testified that Larry Jamison had set up this deal in the first instance, and that Nolan Ray Williamson was the person to whom he delivered the 20,000 amphetamine capsules. He also testified that he was due to be paid the next day in Jackson, Tennessee, but that Doss did not pay him, telling him eventually that they had lost the capsules in Atlanta and that he didn’t have any money. Other testimony from federal agents at this same trial indicated that the “loss” in Atlanta was due to the arrest of Nolan Ray Williamson as he was engaged in the transfer of the 20,000 amphetamine capsules to a man named Glover.
We believe it is clear that the Assistant United States Attorney’s questions quoted above, addressed to appellant Doss in the grand jury room while he was under a sealed indictment, directly pertained to the government’s search for evidence to support its charge that he “did knowingly cause Nolan Ray Williamson and Paul Patterson to possess with intent to distribute approximately twenty thousand (20,000) capsules made up of a substance containing amphetamines . . ..”
We note, of course, that in the perjury trial the District Judge dismissed Count I of the indictment on grounds of ambiguity of the purported perjury. We do not, however, consider that this fact in anywise vitiates the relevance of the material dealt with immediately above concerning the amphetamine transaction. It is clear from the court records of the relevant Doss trials which we cite hereafter that the government deliberately and purposefully employed the grand jury in questioning an already indicted defendant about the crime for which he was soon to be tried.
The same comment may be made in relation to Count IV dealing with the charge that Doss knowingly testified falsely that Paul E. Patterson had never offered him any counterfeit money for sale. See Appendix A. In relation to this charge, it was the government’s contention at Doss’ joint trial on the amphetamine and counterfeit charge that when Doss failed to pay Patterson for the 20,000 capsules of amphetamine because his plans for sale were interrupted at Atlanta by federal agents, Doss was left owing Patterson $6,000. Patterson’s testimony at Doss’ trial shows that more or less voluntarily Patterson reduced the sum that he deemed owing to $4,500, but sought vigorously over a period of time to collect that. In response, Doss came forward with 50 counterfeit $20 bills which Patterson credited to him, according to his testimony, at 15 cents on the counterfeit dollar. Thus the questions and answers before the grand jury quoted above which dealt with Doss’ knowing Patterson and having business dealings with him are just as relevant to the government’s case in relation to the counterfeit charge against Doss as they were to the amphetamine case. Over and above this, however, the following questions and answers from the grand jury transcript must be considered:
Q Did you know George Lenox?
A No, sir.
Q Do you know anything about his death?
*272A I have read it in the papers.
Q Is that the extent of all the knowledge you have of that?
A That’s right, that’s all.
Q How about Herb Brubaker?
A Yes, sir.
Q Herb Brubaker presently has charges pending against him in Kentucky?
A Yes, sir.
Q What do you know about Herb Brubaker?
A What do I know about him?
Q Yes.
A When I first knew Herb Brubaker was in 1950. I was in Covington, Tennessee, at that time and Herb Brubaker and a guy by the name of Crawford, and another name that I can’t remember, was in trouble here in Memphis on a car deal, and they were up there in Covington at that time. That is how I first knew Herb Brubaker.
Q Have you maintained some sort of relationship with him ever since then?
A Pardon?
Q Have you maintained some sort of relationship with him ever since then?
A Oh, yes. I seen him about a year or two ago.
Q Have you remained on friendly terms with him?
A Yes, sir, yes.
At the Doss counterfeit trial, Patterson testified that Herb Brubaker told him that the counterfeit Doss had furnished Patterson was worth fifteen cents on the dollar. The Grand Jury testimony continues:
Q Do you know Jim Aaron in Bruce, Mississippi?
A Jim who?
Q Aaron.
A From Bruce, Mississippi?
Q Yes.
A Will you tell me what he does, or something?
Q Well, you know Kenny Day in Chicago?
A Who?
Q Kenny Day.
A No.
Q Do you know anything about a stolen car ring which also deals some in counterfeit money between Chicago and New Orleans, between Kenny Day and Jim Aaron?
A No.
Q What about a Henry Brett in Bruce, Mississippi, a partner of Jim Aaron?
A No.
Patterson also testified at the Doss counterfeit trial that he (Patterson) took the counterfeit which Doss furnished him to Calhoun County, Mississippi and there sold it to Hayden Skyles and another man later identified as Eli Blount. Skyles and Blount were arrested in Calhoun County by the Sheriff for passing the counterfeit. Bruce, Mississippi, where Aaron and Brett lived is in Calhoun County, Mississippi.
The U.S. Attorney also questioned Doss as follows:
Q Has Paul E. Patterson ever tried to sell you any counterfeit money?
A No, sir, or if he did, I don’t know anything about it.
Q Now, Mr. Doss, did you have anything to do with the disposal of an automobile that was used in the murder of George Lenox?
A No, sir, no, sir, nothing.
Q Such a Cadillac automobile was never given to you by Nolan Ray Williamson for that purpose?
A No, sir, no, sir.
Q So anybody, including Nolan Ray Williamson, who has told us to the contrary would be lying about that?
A Right, right.
Q I think you previously said you know nothing about the Lenox murder?
A I know nothing, what I read in the paper.
As we noted in relation to the amphetamine questioning, here, again, the government questions Doss before the grand jury after he has been secretly indicted for causing Patterson to possess and transport *273counterfeit. These questions bear directly upon Doss’ relationships with the man whom the United States Attorney who was questioning him knew would be the primary witness against Doss on the counterfeit matter. There was also questioning pertaining to his relationships with Nolan Ray Williamson, whom the United States Attorney knew would be an important witness in the forthcoming trial of the secret indictments. At the trial Patterson testified directly that, when he went to Cairo to collect the $4,500 debt for the amphetamine capsules from Doss in January 1972, Doss threw him a brown paper sack containing $20 bills, that these were counterfeit, and that Patterson told Doss to take off the value of the bills at “ten cents or fifteen cents on the dollar,” which Doss said was the going value of the bills. During Patterson’s testimony in the Doss perjury trial, a tape of a phone call from Patterson to Doss, on October 16,1972, was played and Patterson was questioned about that as follows:
Q On this tape do you talk to him about him needing any “green”?
A Yes, sir.
Q And do you make a statement like, “That green like you give me up there you know”. What were you referring to there?
A I don’t recall.
Q Let me ask you if you recall this statement:
“And if you get to needing any of that green like you give me up there”. Do you know what you were referring to?
A To the thousand dollars he had given me.
Q In what?
A Counterfeit money.
Q Do you state on here that you have got some?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q In different denominations?
A Yes.
Q And do you state:
“If you can use it in any way let me know about it.”
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q And do you assure Mr. Doss that it is good stuff?
A Yes, sir.
Thus Doss’ denial in Count IY that Patterson had ever offered him counterfeit money for sale in October of 1972 might be regarded as a totally different transaction from the January 26, 1972, episode when Doss gave Patterson $1,000 of counterfeit money to offset the amphetamine debt. In fact, however, the two were directly related to government efforts to establish Doss’ guilt on the counterfeit charge on which he had been secretly indicted. In this regard it is important to note 1) that Patterson’s offer was made in cooperation with government agents and with no intention of committing a crime, 2) the conversation was initiated by Patterson so as to elicit Doss’ recognition (with a third party listening) that he had indeed transferred counterfeit to Patterson on the earlier date. We think it is clear that the government deliberately made use of the grand jury to help prepare its case for Doss’ trial on the counterfeit charge just as they had done in relation to the amphetamine charge.
The other two counts of the perjury indictment deal with “two or three hundred guns which had been stolen from a Navajo Freight Lines truck.” The perjury trial jury found Doss not guilty on Count II pertaining to these guns, but found him guilty on Count III because he had denied before the grand jury discussing these guns with Paul Patterson during September and October of 1972.
In our prior panel decision concerning this case, we had stated that “Count III of the indictment was totally unrelated to the offenses for which he [Doss] had been indicted.” Closer acquaintance with the Joint Appendix of the Doss trials on the secret indictments pertaining to amphetamines and counterfeit shows that even this may not be unrelated. As shown in Appendix B attached to this opinion, the United States Attorney, Mr. Parrish, successfully propounded to the court the theory that any discussion of illegal means for settling the *274amphetamine debt between Doss and Patterson should be allowed to go to the jury. When we recognize that all conversation about stolen Treflan (a valuable agricultural chemical) and stolen guns between Patterson and Doss was initiated by government agents, as is made crystal clear in the record of the Doss trial, it becomes increasingly obvious that the government was employing the grand jury testimony of the secretly indicted witness for the substantial purpose of preparing testimony against him.
We turn now to a discussion of the legal implications of these facts. The cases previously argued in this appeal by appellant include United States v. Lawn, 115 F.Supp. 674 (S.D.N.Y.), appeal dismissed sub nom. United States v. Roth, 208 F.2d 467 (2d Cir. 1953), apd the Fifth Circuit’s opinions in United States v. Mandujano, 496 F.2d 1050 (5th Cir. 1974), and United States v. Rangel, 496 F.2d 1059 (5th Cir. 1974).
In the last two of these cases, the Fifth Circuit held that perjurious grand jury testimony should be suppressed because of Fifth Amendment violations. These holdings are now overruled by the Supreme Court’s ruling in United States v. Manduja-no, 425 U.S. 564, 96 S.Ct. 1768, 48 L.Ed.2d 212 (1976). There the Supreme Court unanimously held that the abuse of Fifth Amendment rights found by the Fifth Circuit did not excuse perjury.
Subsequently the Supreme Court reiterated this holding in United States v. Wong, 431 U.S. 174, 97 S.Ct. 1823, 52 L.Ed.2d 231 (1977). The same holding was applied to a potential defendant so as to allow use of his grand jury testimony at his subsequent trial in United States v. Washington, 431 U.S. 181, 97 S.Ct. 1814, 52 L.Ed.2d 238 (1977). In no one of these three cases, however, had the witness been indicted— much less secretly indicted.
Significantly for our present problem, in the Mandujano case the Supreme Court implied, citing Brown v. United States, 245 F.2d 549 (8th Cir. 1957), that there could be abuse of process requiring voiding of a perjury indictment.
In Brown the Eighth Circuit stated the principal issue as follows:
The record makes it clear that the counts in question have to do with answers given by defendant while under oath before a grand jury called, sworn and sitting in the district of Nebraska and that the offenses charged in these counts have to do with matters which occurred in the Eastern District of Missouri. If the grand jury of Nebraska was without authority to inquire into offenses committed in Missouri, then the answers of defendant, even if false, would not amount to perjury.
Brown v. United States, supra at 552.
The Eighth Circuit’s analysis of the record found that no evidence pertaining to the Missouri events on the basis of which Brown was indicted for perjury was relevant to any offense committed in Nebraska and that Brown’s answers could not be made the basis for a perjury prosecution, since the grand jury was acting beyond its powers in conducting the inquisition.
Justice Stewart’s opinion in the Manduja-no case summarized the holding of Brown v. United States by saying, “the perjury prosecution must be barred because of prosecu-torial conduct amounting to a denial of due process . . United States v. Man-dujano, supra [425 U.S.] at 609, 96 S.Ct. at 1793 (Stewart, J., concurring opinion).
We believe our present appeal presents similar prosecutorial abuse and violation of due process.
In Justice Brennan’s concurring opinion in Mandujano he points out:
It is clear that the government may not in the absence of an intentional and knowing waiver call an indicted defendant before a grand jury and there interrogate him concerning the subject matter of a crime for which he already stands formally charged. Lawn v. United States, 355 U.S. 339 [78 S.Ct. 311, 2 L.Ed.2d 321] (1958); United States v. Calandra, 414 U.S. [338 (1974)] at 345, 346 [94 S.Ct., at 618, 38 L.Ed.2d, at 569], *275United States v. Mandujano, supra at 594, 96 S.Ct. at 1785 (Brennan, J., concurring opinion).
This is, however, exactly what has been done in our instant case and it leads directly to our reversal of these convictions. In Costello v. United States, 350 U.S. 359, 364, 76 S.Ct. 406, 100 L.Ed. 397 (1956), Mr. Justice Black sustained an indictment based upon hearsay under the historic broad powers of the grand jury as preserved in our criminal law by the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution. See also United States v. Calandra, 414 U.S. 338, 343-4, 94 S.Ct. 613, 38 L.Ed.2d 561 (1974). In his concluding paragraph, however, he noted in contradistinction, “In a trial on the merits, defendants are entitled to a strict observance of all the rules designed to bring about a fair verdict.”
When a person under our system of law has been indicted for a crime, the government has no more right to call him before a grand jury and question him about that crime than it has to call an unwilling defendant to the stand during' trial of the case. United States v. Lawn, 115 F.Supp. 674, 677 (S.D.N.Y.1953). See also In re National Window Glass Workers, 287 F.219, 227-28 (N.D.Ohio 1922).
On this issue the District Judge in United States v. Lawn, supra, said:
A mere witness may properly be subpoenaed to appear and testify before the grand jury, though he may not be compelled to incriminate himself, Blair v. United States, 250 U.S. 273, 39 S.Ct. 468, 63 L.Ed. 979, and he need not be warned of his privilege but to avail himself of it he must plead it whenever the answer to a question may incriminate. United States v. Benjamin, 2 Cir., 1941, 120 F.2d 521; United States v. Miller, D.C., 80 F.Supp. 979.
However, upon the trial of the defendant in a criminal case, it would be a clear violation of a defendant’s right against self-incrimination under the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution to compel him to take the stand, testify and produce his records, relating to the matter with which he is charged. Unless he volunteers, it would invalidate the trial. United States v. Housing Foundation of America, Inc., 3 Cir., 1949, 176 F.2d 665. Title 18 U.S.C.A. § 3481 makes a defendant a competent witness at his own request. It is thus improper to call him as a witness without a request on his part. 8 Wigmore on Evidence, 3rd Edit., p. 393; 3 Wharton’s Criminal Evidence, 11th Edit., p. 1960.
For similar reasons, an indictment is invalid if a defendant against whom a criminal information has been filed, is called by the prosecution as a witness before the grand jury to obtain evidence tending to sustain an indictment against him, which supersedes the earlier information. Mulloney v. United States, 1 Cir., 1935, 79 F.2d 566; United States v. Miller, supra; United States v. Kimball, CC., 117 F. 156. In neither situation is the defendant required to claim the privilege. The law grants him this protection. It is a right which he alone may waive. Id. at 677 (emphasis in original).
In the Kimball case the Court made reference to the ancient rule that a defendant could not testify for himself and stated:
The law of the state has removed the disability of a defendant in a criminal case to testify, and permits him to stand mute or to testify as he wills, and protects his choice from any suggestion of the prosecuting party, as well as unfavorable inference by the jury. No right of this nature springs from the constitution. Such a defendant could not, before the statute, be asked to take the witness stand, because, on account of his status, he could not be a witness voluntarily or compulsorily; and the disability now continues, unless of his own motion he elect to remove it. To demand or to request that he shall be sworn is an attempt to choose for him, which constrains his acceptance and coerces him to make public choice in the presence of the jury. This would be misconduct on the part of the prosecution, intended and calculated to harm the defendant, disturb his free *276choice, and prejudice the jury in the ease of declination. This protection relates solely to a defendant. United States v. Kimball, 117 F. 156, 160 (C.C.S.D.N.Y.1902).
The Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution reads: “No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury . . . .” The function of the grand jury clearly terminates with the issuance of the indictment. It has no relationship to the trial itself. We find no constitutional, statutory or case authority for employment of the grand jury as a discovery instrument to help the government prepare evidence to convict an already indicted defendant. Such a use of the grand jury would pervert its constitutional and historic function. United States v. Lawn, 115 F.Supp. 674, 677 (S.D.N.Y.1953); Boone v. People, 148 Ill. 440, 448-50, 36 N.E. 99 (1894); State v. Clifford, 86 Iowa 550, 53 N.W. 299, 300 (1892). See also In re National Window Glass Workers, 287 F. 219, 227-28 (N.D.Ohio 1922); United States v. Kimball, 117 F. 156, 167 (1902).
The record in our instant appeal shows clearly that such an abuse of the grand jury process was undertaken by the United States Attorney. As noted above, appellant had been twice secretly indicted and was unwarned of those facts. Nonetheless, the United States Attorney undertook substantial questioning of appellant before the grand jury and without counsel present in the room3 about the subject matter of the secret indictments.
In 1964 the Supreme Court said:
[U]nder our system of justice the most elemental concepts of due process of law contemplate that an indictment be followed by a trial, “in an orderly courtroom, presided over by a judge, open to the public, and protected by all the procedural safeguards of the law.” 360 U.S., at 327 [79 S.Ct. at 1209, 3 L.Ed.2d 1265]
(STEWART, J., concurring). It was said that a Constitution which guarantees a defendant the aid of counsel at such a trial could surely vouchsafe no less to an indicted defendant under interrogation by the police in a completely extrajudicial proceeding.
Massiah v. United States, 377 U.S. 201, 204, 84 S.Ct. 1199, 1202, 12 L.Ed.2d 246 (1964).
In 1977 the Supreme Court said:
Whatever else it may mean, the right to counsel granted by the Sixth and Fourteenth Amendments means at least that a person is entitled to the help of a lawyer at or after the time that judicial proceedings have been initiated against him— “whether by way of formal charge, preliminary hearing, indictment, information, or arraignment.” Kirby v. Illinois, [406 U.S. 682], at 689, [92 S.Ct. at 1882]. See Powell v. Alabama, 287 U.S. 45, [53 S.Ct. 55, 77 L.Ed. 158]; Johnson v. Zerbst, 304 U.S. 458, [58 S.Ct. 1019, 82 L.Ed. 1461]; Hamilton v. Alabama, 368 U.S. 52, [82 S.Ct. 157, 7 L.Ed.2d 114]; Gideon v. Wainwright, [372 U.S. 335, 83 S.Ct. 792, 9 L.Ed.2d 799]; White v. Maryland, 373 U.S. 59, [83 S.Ct. 1050, 10 L.Ed.2d 193]; Massiah v. United States, 377 U.S. 201, [84 S.Ct. 1199, 12 L.Ed.2d 242]; United States v. Wade, 388 U.S. 218, [87 S.Ct. 1926,18 L.Ed.2d 1149]; Gilbert v. California, 388 U.S. 263, [87 S.Ct. 1951, 18 L.Ed.2d 1178]; Coleman v. Alabama, [399 U.S. 1, 88 S.Ct. 2, 19 L.Ed.2d 22], Brewer v. Williams, 430 U.S. 387, 97 S.Ct. 1232, 51 L.Ed.2d 424 (1977).
Where a substantial purpose of calling an indicted defendant before a grand jury is to question him secretly and without counsel present without his being informed of the nature and cause of the accusation about a crime for which he stands already indicted, the proceeding is an abuse of process which violates both the right to counsel provision of the Sixth Amendment and the due process clause of the Fifth Amendment. Indict*277ments for perjurious answers given in such a proceeding must be quashed because the proceeding itself is void.
Any other result in this case would allow the revival of a modern version of the ancient English Star Chamber where the accused was required to appear without counsel and answer any questions his prosecutors or judges might put. The abuses of the Star Chamber contributed to this nation’s adoption of the Fifth Amendment’s guarantee of a right to be free from self-incrimination, and the Sixth Amendment’s guarantee of a right to counsel after the initiation of a criminal prosecution.
No such result, of course, would flow (absent facts not presented here) from calling a defendant indicted for one crime to appear and give evidence before a grand jury upon a wholly different and separable offense.
The dissent in this case recognizes that “the government may not in the absence of an intentional and knowing waiver call an indicted defendant before a grand jury and there interrogate him concerning the subject matter of a crime for which he stands already indicted.” United States v. Mandu-jano, 425 U.S. 564, 594, [96 S.Ct. 1768, 1785, 48 L.Ed.2d 212] (1976) (Brennan, J., concurring). The dissent, however, would hold that such questioning would not offend the Constitution unless it was the “sole or dominant purpose of the grand jury.”4 If such a rule were applied to the present case, it would have required little added ingenuity on the part of the prosecutor to question the already indicted defendant extensively about a wholly separate crime and then turn to less extensive questioning on the crimes for which defendant was already indicted and about to be tried.
Such a rule would allow pretrying an indicted defendant in the secrecy of the grand jury room without counsel beside him. The government’s advantage in seeking wide-ranging discovery through this mechanism would be very great. Even a defendant’s invocation of the Fifth Amendment (as in this case on a selective basis) would tell the prosecutor when he had struck pay dirt for more detailed investigation before trial or cross-examination at trial.
The tremendous advantages which the prosecution could gain by subjecting an indicted defendant to such a private inquisition just before trial would make a fundamental change in the American constitutional system of adversarial trial, as set forth in the Fifth and Sixth Amendments. Nor could such abuse be cured by the trial court’s sustaining objections to grand jury evidence thus procured. As indicated above, the knowledge gained by the prosecutor from the defendant’s own mouth as to sensitive areas and potential witnesses would be invaluable to him even if the prosecutor never tendered a line of grand jury testimony for admission at the subsequent trial.
The dissent also cites a series of cases5 as if they were precedents for upholding the prosecutorial abuses revealed in this case. Actually, none of these eases involved the compelled grand jury questioning of a witness who did not know that he was being questioned about the subject matter of an indictment secretly issued against him.
*278Indeed the dominant purpose rule set forth by the dissent’s cases cited in footnote 5 relates solely to claims of abuse by questioning potential trial witnesses and not to the questioning of an indicted defendant or defendants.
Only one case cited by the dissent involved questioning an indicted defendant before a grand jury. In that case, United States v. George, 444 F.2d 310 (6th Cir. 1971), George knew that he had been indicted and what he had been indicted for. The court found that he was to be questioned on “new matters” and not the subjects of his indictment. George also knew that he had been promised immunity from prosecution for any incriminating testimony he gave. George was convicted for contempt for refusing to answer any question at all. The George case is a far cry from our instant problem.
Indeed the dearth of precedent for our instant case is probably due to the fact that most prosecutors would readily perceive that the practice undertaken here was fundamentally repugnant to the American system of justice.
We recognize the strength and unanimity with which the Supreme Court has decreed that Fifth Amendment abuses in grand jury proceedings do not warrant condonation of perjury or prevent sanctions for false statements. United States v. Mandu-jano, supra, 425 U.S. at 576-77, 96 S.Ct. 1768; United States v. Wong, supra. See also United States v. Knox, 396 U.S. 77, 90 S.Ct. 363, 24 L.Ed.2d 275 (1969); Bryson v. United States, 396 U.S. 64, 90 S.Ct. 355, 24 L.Ed.2d 264 (1969); Dennis v. United States, 384 U.S. 855, 86 S.Ct. 1840, 16 L.Ed.2d 973 (1966); Kay v. United States, 303 U.S. 1, 58 S.Ct. 468, 82 L.Ed. 607 (1938); United States v. Kapp, 302 U.S. 214, 58 S.Ct. 182, 82 L.Ed. 205 (1937). But the prosecutorial abuse in this case appears to us to have involved employment of a grand jury completely beyond its jurisdiction.
There is a distinction of great moment between grand jury questioning of a witness (even one who might subsequently be indicted) and grand jury questioning of an indicted defendant on the subject of the crime with which he is charged. The importance of the beginning of a criminal prosecution was emphasized by Mr. Justice Stewart in his opinion in Kirby v. Illinois, 406 U.S. 682, 689-90, 92 S.Ct. 1877, 1882, 32 L.Ed.2d 411 (1972), as follows:
The initiation of judicial criminal proceedings is far from a mere formalism. It is the starting point of our whole system of adversary criminal justice. For it is only then that the government has committed itself to prosecute, and only then that the adverse positions of government and defendant have solidified. It is then that a defendant finds himself faced with the prosecutorial forces of organized society, and immersed in the intricacies of substantive and procedural criminal law. It is this point, therefore, that marks the commencement of the “criminal prosecutions” to which alone the explicit guarantees of the Sixth Amendment are applicable.7. See Powell v. Alabama, 287 U.S., at
66-71 [53 S.Ct., at 63]; Massiah v. United States, 377 U.S. 201 [84 S.Ct. 1199, 12 L.Ed.2d 246]; Spano v. New York, 360 U.S. 315, 324 [79 S.Ct. 1202, 1207, 3 L.Ed.2d 1265] (DOUGLAS, J., concurring).
We believe that secret and compelled prosecutorial interrogation of an indicted defendant before a grand jury on the subject matter of the crime with which he is charged can destroy a defendant’s right to subsequent fair trial.
We have held above that substantial grand jury questioning of a secretly indicted defendant on the subject of the indictment represents prosecutorial abuse which violates the due process clause of the Fifth *279Amendment and the right to counsel provision of the Sixth Amendment, and that such a proceeding is void.
The judgments of conviction in these cases are reversed and remanded for vacation of the sentences and dismissal of the indictments.
APPENDIX A
CASE No. 72-268
18 USC, § 1623
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
v.
VINCENT MORAN DOSS
INDICTMENT
Filed December 13, 1972
THE GRAND JURY CHARGES:
COUNT ONE
On or about November 13, 1972, in the Western District of Tennessee, Western Division,
-----VINCENT MORAN DOSS-----
having been duly administered an oath to tell the truth, knowingly testified falsely before the United States Grand Jury em-panelled and sitting in the Western District of Tennessee, on November 13,1972 that he never had any business dealings with Paul E. Patterson, a material declaration, when in fact he purchased a controlled substance, 20,000 amphetamines, on or about November 6, 1971, from Paul E. Patterson and further that on October 13, 1972 VINCENT MORAN DOSS did purchase six containers of an agricultural chemical, Treflan from Paul E. Patterson at Covington, Tennessee, in violation of Title 18, United States Code, § 1623.
COUNT TWO
On or about November 13, 1972, in the Western District of Tennessee, Western Division,
-----VINCENT MORAN DOSS-----
having been duly administered an oath to tell the truth, knowingly testified falsely before the United States Grand Jury em-panelled and sitting in the Western District of Tennessee, that on November 13, 1972, no one had ever offered him for sale two or three hundred guns which had been stolen from a Navajo Freight Lines truck, a material declaration, when in fact he attempted to assist Paul E. Patterson in purchasing those guns on or about October 13, 1972 in violation of Title 18, United States Code, § 1623.
COUNT THREE
On or about November 13, 1972, in the Western District of Tennessee, Western Division,
-----VINCENT MORAN DOSS — ----
having been duly administered an oath to tell the truth, knowingly testified falsely before the United States Grand Jury em-panelled and sitting in the Western District of Tennessee, that on November 13, 1972, he knew nothing about two or three hundred guns stolen from Navajo Freight Lines, a material declaration, when in fact he had discussed those guns with Paul E. Patterson during September and October 1972, in violation of Title 18, United States Code, § 1623.
COUNT FOUR
On or about November 13, 1972, in the Western District of Tennessee, Western Division,
-----VINCENT MORAN DOSS-----
having been duly administered an oath to tell the truth, knowingly testified falsely before the United States Grand Jury em-panelled and sitting in the Western District of Tennessee, that on November 13, 1972, Paul E. Patterson had never offered him any counterfeit money for sale, a material declaration, when in fact in October, 1972, Paul E. Patterson had offered counterfeit money to him for sale in violation of Title 18, United States Code, § 1623.
*280APPENDIX B
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Parrish, what is the position of the government on the objection.
MR. PARRISH: The position of the government is the same as to the Treflan as it was the other day.
As to the guns, we need to keep in focus exactly what the purpose is, and what the issue is for the jury to determine, and that is, whether or not Mr. Doss caused Mr. Patterson to possess the counterfeit money, and Mr. Patterson and Mr. Williamson to possess the narcotics or controlled substances at that time.
It is a matter of developing evidence to determine whether or not that thing happened, so the initial inquiry, as I explained before, was what about that debt you owe me long ago. And Mr. Doss basically responds that he doesn’t have any money, if I had it I’d give it to you, I guess everybody owes it to you.
And then it goes into alternate ways to satisfy that debt, that recognized debt by Mr. Doss. That’s when these other things come up about the Treflan.
Mr. Patterson suggested in substance that if you don’t have the money what else can we work out so you can satisfy that debt, and Mr. Doss suggests slot machines after Mr. Patterson mentioned juke boxes, and then they continue talking about what else, what other kind of things, and in that context Mr. Patterson says remember last year you were talking to me about those guns. And Mr. Doss acknowledges yes, sir, I remember, and Patterson says well what about them now, can we use that to satisfy this debt as a result of the dope, and they continue the discussion.
THE COURT: Well, now, is last year before the debt or after the alleged debt was occurred? That’s the reason I asked the date of this October ’72?
MR. PARRISH: I don’t know when this mention was made by Mr. — well, okay, it would have had to have been after the pills, the situation on the pills, because Mr. Patterson met Mr. Doss for the first time by the introduction of Mr. Jamison, and all the relationship between Mr. Doss and Mr. Patterson was after that point in time, that being the fall of 1971, and it was November of 1971 when Mr. Williamson was arrested in Atlanta. So all of their conversation had to have occurred since then.
Now, Mr. Patterson is calling, in this instance we are talking about October of 1972, and it is Mr. Patterson mentions you know them guns you mentioned to me last year. So it would have been some point in time subsequent to the initial sale of the pills to Mr. Doss. That’s the best I can do so far as time frame. And Mr. Doss says yes, sir, I remember. And Mr. Patterson says well that’s something I could use, that’s how we can settle this whole thing, can you get those guns. And Mr. Doss says I will check on that for you, and in a subsequent conversation Mr. Patterson asked did you check on those things and Mr. Doss responds that I haven’t had a chance to get in touch with them. And on a subsequent occasion he is asked again and Mr. Doss says no I haven’t, there is some trouble over there, and I haven’t checked on them.
There is a meeting in Covington that was not transcribed, but Mr. Foushee was there, and Mr. Doss indicated at that meeting that the guns were at Fort Leonard Wood, but there was a dispute over there and he says they can’t get the guns.
All of this centers around the term, how are we going to satisfy the debt as a result of my supplying the pills at your request.
A lot of this was brought up initially through the testimony elicited by the cross-examination of Mr. Andrews of Mr. Stevenson. Mr. Andrews inquired at length about these things and Mr. Stevenson told about the guns in his testimony, and those were matters not covered by direct examination.
I remember making an effort not to, and Mr. Andrews brought them up on cross-examination, and they have been injected into the lawsuit by Mr. Andrews’ cross-examination of Mr. Stevenson, and I think if for no *281other reason there should be a further explanation of them. There is an overriding consideration about all of the conversation, there was a relationship between Mr. Doss and Mr. Patterson, and the type relationship that they had, and how that relationship would have accommodated what is alleged in the indictment. And this whole nature and context of the conversations just solidifies the type relationship they had, and if there was nothing more the jury could rightfully conclude that if these two men had that type relationship it is implied that that relationship included what is alleged in the indictment.
* * * * # *
MR. PARRISH: The central question this jury has to determine is whether or not there was any indebtedness, and any obligation from Mr. Doss to Mr. Patterson as a result of this transaction involving the pills. That’s something they are going to have to determine one way or the other.
Then, in the context of all this conversation comes up and it is in that context, but it is Mr. Doss acknowledging orally the debt, and then he doesn’t have the money, and then it is Mr. Patterson that says what else is going on. And then all the other things come up in that context about satisfying that obligation.
* * * * # *
THE COURT: All right. The Court has listened to the argument of counsel in the objections made to the contents of the tapes, and the presentation of them to the jury.
The Court overrules the objections, and in doing so makes this observation.
That the contents of the tapes, based on what counsel have contended they say, goes to the relationship between Mr. Doss and Mr. Patterson. There is other proof to indicate, or there will be proof offered to indicate that Mr. Doss did have a relationship with Mr. Patterson that dealt in criminal enterprises within the scope of the two counts that will be submitted to the jury.
Now, it is also been indicated that Mr. Doss takes the position that he is a man of respectability, and he wouldn’t deal in these things. That has been stated to the jury. There is such strong proof that he did deal in these matters, that the Court believes that the Government should be allowed to show the relationship, and the fact that Mr. Doss did discuss and did deal in dope and counterfeit money.
Now, even one against whom there is strong proof that deals in dope and counterfeit money is indicted you have the issue determined on those crimes and not on prejudicial matters. So the Court has been most concerned about whether or not this type testimony would be received by the jury as one who deals in a truck load of stolen Treflan would deal in dope and counterfeit money, or one who deals in guns would deal in dope and would deal in counterfeit money.
These questions of prejudice are very hard for a Court to determine, particularly until all the proof is in.
Up to this point there is a very strong case against Mr. Doss on the crimes charged, and we haven’t heard his proof, we haven’t heard all the government’s proof, but his attitude, that he was shocked by some of these things, is just not borne out by the proof, and it could very well be argued that he commonly dealt in these things, and he was available for any sort of crime.
But I’m going to impose a condition on my ruling, and Mr. Parrish should be armed with this.
I believe he understands this, but in case he doesn’t the Court imposes, whether you want to call it a protective order or what, and directs that Mr. Parrish should be very careful in any argument, not to argue to the jury any remarks that would constitute an inference that anybody who deals in guns and stolen Treflan would deal in controlled substances or counterfeit money.
Now, I’m partially persuaded in my ruling that there is proof that Mr. Doss dealt with Mr. Patterson on a credit basis, and expected to get the money from Mr. Williamson that he was going to get in Atlanta and pay Mr. Patterson. And when Mr. *282Williamson got arrested then the source of his money was not available, and Mr. Patterson was out the black mollies, and this is a very plausible theory in the light of the proof.
So I can’t eliminate all references to this but, Mr. Parrish, the Court is concerned about this, and would not expect you to refer to Mr. Doss’ likelihood of committing these crimes because he was willing to or did deal in what appeared to be stolen Treflan or guns.
I think the less said about this the better in the closing argument.
MR. PARRISH: I agree.
THE COURT: I will reserve my thoughts and determination on a cautionary instruction, and counsel may make a note and if you want one offered or suggest one I will be glad to receive it. I’m not transferring all the responsibility for that to counsel, but sometimes counsel don’t want a cautionary instruction that is intended to be in their behalf.
:}s s}: * sf: * *

. The panel consisted of Judges Edwards, McCree and Miller. The Honorable William E. Miller died April 12, 1976, and did not participate in the panel decision of this case. The Honorable Wade H. McCree, Jr., resigned from the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit to become Solicitor General of the United States on March 28, 1977, and did not participate in the en banc rehearing of this case.

. The two secret indictments, one for causing Nolan Ray Williamson and Paul E. Patterson to possess with intent to distribute 20,000 amphetamine capsules, and the other for causing Paul E. Patterson to possess and transport $1,000 of counterfeit currency, were tried at the same time. We take judicial notice of the Joint Appendix in these cases. It is a part of this court’s record in relation to appeals of guilty verdicts in the joint trial in United States v. Doss, No. 74-1722 and No. 74-1723, affirmed January 9, 1976, by unpublished per curiam. Contrary to the opinion expressed by the dissent, we believe that our taking judicial notice of our own court’s record is wholly consistent with the provisions of Rule 201 of the Federal Rules of Evidence, particularly Paragraphs (b), (c) and (f).
Rule 201 provides:
Rule 201. Judicial Notice of Adjudicative Facts
(a) Scope of rule. This rule governs only judicial notice of adjudicative facts.
(b) Kinds of facts. A judicially noticed fact must be one not subject to reasonable dispute in that it is either (1) generally known within the territorial jurisdiction of the trial court or (2) capable of accurate and ready determination by resort to sources whose accuracy cannot reasonably be questioned.
(c) When discretionary. A court may take judicial notice, whether requested or not.
(d) When mandatory. A court shall take judicial notice if requested by a party and supplied the necessary information.
(e) Opportunity to be heard. A party is entitled upon timely request to an opportunity to be heard as to the propriety of taking judicial notice and the tenor of the matter noticed. In the absence of prior notification, the request may be made after judicial notice has been taken.
(f) Time of taking notice. Judicial notice may be taken at any stage of the proceeding.
(g) Instructing jury. In a civil action or proceeding, the court shall instruct the jury to accept as conclusive any fact judicially noticed. In a criminal case, the court shall instruct the jury that it may, but is not required to, accept as conclusive any fact judicially noticed.
The Supreme Court has taken judicial notice of its own record of another case between the same parties. National Fire Ins. Co. v. Thompson, 281 U.S. 331, 336, 50 S.Ct. 288, 74 L.Ed. 881 (1930), cited with approval in Shuttles-worth v. Birmingham, 394 U.S. 147, 157 n.6, 89 S.Ct. 935, 22 L.Ed.2d 162 (1969).
See also New York Indians v. U.S., 170 U.S. 1, 32, 18 S.Ct. 531, 42 L.Ed. 927 (1893); International Brotherhood of Teamsters v. Zantop Air Transport Corp., 394 F.2d 36, 40 (6th Cir. 1968); Moore v. Estelle, 526 F.2d 690, 694 (5th Cir.), cert. denied, 426 U.S. 953, 96 S.Ct. 3180, 49 L.Ed.2d 1192 (1976); Paul v. Dade County, 419 F.2d 10, 12 (5th Cir. 1969), cert. denied, 397 U.S. 1065, 90 S.Ct. 1504, 25 L.Ed.2d 686 (1970).

. Our point, of course, is not that defense lawyers should be admitted to grand jury rooms, but rather that indicted defendants must not be subjected to questioning before grand juries about the offenses upon which they await trial.

. See dictum in United States v. George, 444 F.2d 310, 314 (6th Cir. 1971).

. U.S. v. Woods, 544 F.2d 242 (6th Cir. 1976), cert. denied, 430 U.S. 969, 97 S.Ct. 1652, 52 L.Ed.2d 361 (1977); U.S. v. Seliaro, 514 F.2d 114 (8th Cir. 1973), cert. denied, 421 U.S. 1013, 95 S.Ct. 2419, 44 L.Ed.2d 681 (1975); U.S. v. Braasch, 505 F.2d 139, 147 (7th Cir. 1974), cert. denied, 421 U.S. 910, 95 S.Ct. 1561, 43 L.Ed.2d 775 (1975); Beverly v. United States, 468 F.2d 732 (5th Cir. 1972); U.S. v. Doe (Application of Ellsberg), 455 F.2d 1270 (1st Cir. 1972); U.S. v. Dardi, 330 F.2d 316, 336 (2d Cir.), cert. denied, 379 U.S. 845, 85 S.Ct. 50, 51, 13 L.Ed.2d 50 (1964); In re Pilliteri, 420 F.Supp. 913 (W.D.Pa. 1976); U.S. v. Kovaleski, 406 F.Supp. 267, 269 (E.D.Mich.1976); In re Grand Jury Investigation, 32 F.R.D. 175 (S.D.N.Y.), appeal dismissed, 318 F.2d 533 (2d Cir.), cert. denied, 375 U.S. 802, 84 S.Ct. 25, 11 L.Ed.2d 37 (1963); U.S. v. Pack, 150 F.Supp. 262 (D.Del.1957); Application of Iaconi, 120 F.Supp. 589, 591 (D.Mass.1954); Application of Texas Co., 27 F.Supp. 847 (E.D.Ill.1939). Compare 8 J. Moore, Federal Practice ¶ 6.04, at 6-69 (2d ed. rev. 1976) (cited by the dissent) with id. at 6-71.

 “In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.” U.S.Const., Arndt. VI.