Opinion ID: 2009700
Heading Depth: 1
Heading Rank: 8

Heading: b.m.

Text: On June 26, 1988, Investigator (I) interviewed B.M., a six year-old boy. The interview began in typical fashion with Investigator (I) asking B.M. to draw pictures of himself, his mother, his father and Kelly. After B.M. drew several pictures, Investigator (I) began asking B.M. about Kelly. Investigator (I): I talked to all of [the kids in your class] and they were telling me how they didn't like the stuff Kelly was doing. Anyway I like talking to you older guys better because you're better to talk to, more like grownups than the little kids in the nursery school. So I'm asking you a favor  B.M.: Why because they talked about Kelly because she did something bad to them? Investigator (I): Uh, huh. B.M.: What? Investigator (I): She did bad stuff to them. B.M.: Not me.         Investigator (I): She was hurting some kids in not some nice ways. So I'm wondering if you saw anything. You can help me to find out who some of the hurt kids are so that I can make it all better again. Because they must be pretty upset and pretty mad. B.M.: What did she do? Investigator (I): Well, I don't want to tell you exactly what she did because you may know something that I don't know yet, and that can really help.... These are funny dolls. A little different from those you have seen before. B.M.: I want to leave. Investigator (I): Why. B.M.: Because I don't like  Investigator (I): Like what? You don't like being here: Well you'll be out of here in a couple of minutes. And you never have to come back if you don't want to. Anyway these are  what's different about these dolls, this one's a boy. B.M.: Yeah. Investigator (I): Because he's got a what? What do you call this? B.M.: I don't know. Investigator (I): You know. Is it a peepee [sic] or a penis? What's the word you use? B.M.: A wee-wee.         Investigator (I) then went to a female doll and asked B.M. questions about its anatomy. Investigator (I): What are these things. What do we all have here? Breasts or boobies, what do you want to call them? B.M.: You're teaching me. Investigator (I): I'm not teaching you, I am asking you. Come on. Don't go throwing stuff around like that. It's not very nice. B.M.: Stop teaching me this stuff. Investigator (I): You got [sic] to learn somehow. The little three-year-old kids knew what everything was. And you don't. Anyway, what I did is [sic] show the kids dolls like this and then I pull out this stuff. A wooden spoon, a fork, a knife and a teaspoon, a metal spoon. Your daddy was telling that you would hit mommy. Mommy would hit you on the butt sometimes when you deserved it, right? But aside from that did you ever see Kelly hurt anybody with this? B.M.: Yeah. Investigator (I): How do you think she might hurt somebody with this? For example, it would hurt, how do you think she might hurt a little boy with this, this wooden spoon. B.M.: She did that. [Apparently demonstrating with the doll and the spoon that Kelly would smack the boys on the bottom.] Investigator (I) introduced the possible use of other utensils into the conversation, identifying each to B.M.B.M. steadfastly refused to say that he was hurt with any of the utensils by Kelly. At one point however, he seemed to implicate his mother as the one responsible for the bruises on his back. Investigator (I) continued to question B.M. about how Kelly used the various utensils on him and his friends. At one point he exhibited frustration at not receiving the cooperation or the answers for which he was looking. Investigator (I): I want to ask you something. B.M.: No. Investigator (I): Don't be a baby. You're acting like a nursery school kid. Come here. Come here a second. B.M., come here. We're not finished yet. Sit down. B.M.: No. Investigator (I): Come here. Seriously, we are going to need your help on this. B.M.: No I'm not. Investigator (I): How do you think she would hurt boys and girls, with a fork? A fork in the face? Sticking on the legs? The arms or on the neck? Does that hurt? B.M.: [Inaudible reply.] At that point in the questioning B.M. told Investigator (I) that he wanted to leave. Investigator (I), in an effort to put B.M. at ease, changed the tenor of the conversation and began to reassure B.M. that he was safe from Kelly. Investigator (I): I know it must not be very easy to remember this and to talk about it. It's painful and embarrassing. I also know that she scared a lot of kids and telling them things that weren't true. About monsters and about how she can fly. I heard all those stories from your friends. Did you know Kelly is in jail? B.M.: Yeah. Investigator (I): If you help me out, when we finish here in a couple of minutes I will introduce you to the man who put her in jail. B.M.: I thought you put her in jail. Investigator (I): I helped to get her there. By talking to all the kids and telling me the truth about what happened. The more kids we get to tell us what happened the longer she can stay in jail. You see? You said you were real upset when she was hurting your friend or damaging your friends, we do not want her damaging anymore kids, right? So when we finish today, I will introduce you to the man who put her in jail. And, if you want, if you help me out I can have Sgt. Noonan of the local police department show you what a jail cell looks like so that you can see it, how tough it is for her, she cannot break out of jail, like she was telling everybody. I think she was telling everybody she had superpowers, that she could see through walls and stuff like that. She doesn't have anything like that. She's a regular woman. A regular person. B.M.: Is she really like that? Super powers? Investigator (I): No. I think you know that she doesn't have super powers. You know what it is, Kelly was sick when she was hurting kids. It's o.k. to like her, she was a nice lady until she got sick. And then after she got sick is when she started hurting kids.... Investigator (I): Did she try to bother you and you didn't let her? B.M.: No. Investigator (I): It would be o.k. to tell me the truth if she did try to bother you just so that you can show me how she might just try to hurt these other kids. 'Cause the more we know the longer she will stay in jail. You understand? And I think you would like to know that she doesn't have any secret powers, she can't fly, she can't see through walls, she can't hurt anybody with her vision.... What are some of the other stories that she used to scare the kids? That they wouldn't tell anybody. Did she tell them she would hurt their parents or something Do you know if she said that? B.M.: Yeah. Investigator (I): You know that's not true.... The police put her in jail. Because she was hurting you, you know. That's why I really need your help, especially you older kids, you six-year-olds and kindergartners, because you can talk better than the little kids, and you can show things a little clearer on the dolls. And if you help us out we can take you on a little tour of the jail. And you will be helping to keep her in jail longer so that she doesn't hurt anybody else. Not to mention that you'll feel a lot better once you start  B.M.: It's scaring me.         Investigator (I): That's o.k.... Believe me she is not going to be coming out of jail. She's not going to be hurting you guys anymore. That's why I'm really proud of you, and E.N. and L.J. Which one got hurt the worst? B.M.: None of them. Investigator (I): That's not what they told me. B.M.: I never saw anybody get hurt. Investigator (I): You never saw anybody get hurt? Did they ever tell you that they got hurt? See, the reason I think that you might have gotten hurt or seen them ... is that you started to show me on the dolls just exactly what happened. And unless you saw it happen you wouldn't really know, would you? B.M.: I didn't get hurt. Investigator (I): No maybe you didn't, maybe you fought her off. Maybe you really didn't hurt then. Maybe you saw your other friends getting hurt and you didn't like it very much. You know.         B.M.: What did Kelly do? Investigator (I): Oh I think you know. N.J. told me, and G.G. told me that she hurt them in the gym downstairs. And E.N. told me what he saw. B.M.: What did he see? Investigator (I): I don't want to tell you what they told me because I want to know if everybody is telling me the truth. If what you tell me goes along with what they said, then I know they were all telling the truth. You know what I mean, jellybean. B.M.: I want to leave.  Now! Investigator (I): Did you ever go in the music room? The room with the big black piano? B.M.: No. Investigator (I): Did you ever see Kelly play Jingle Bells on the piano? B.M.: No. Investigator (I): How did she look when she was sitting at the piano? B.M.: I never saw her play the piano. Investigator (I): Did she look like this when she was sitting at the piano? B.M.: No. Investigator (I): Did you ever see Kelly locking any of the kids in the bathroom or closet? B.M.: No. Investigator (I): If you did see her hurt any kids would you tell me? B.M.: No. B.M. steadfastly refused to implicate Kelly in any way. The interview continued for a few more minutes, ending with Investigator (I)'s final attempts to gain cooperation from B.M. B.M.: I want to leave now. Investigator (I): I'd hate having to tell your friends that you didn't want to help them. B.M.: I do. Investigator (I): I'll have to tell them that you didn't want to though. The interview ended without any further comment from B.M. For affirmance  Chief Justice WILENTZ, and Justices CLIFFORD, HANDLER, POLLOCK, O'HERN, GARIBALDI and STEIN  7. For reversal  none.