Opinion ID: 1464247
Heading Depth: 2
Heading Rank: 2

Heading: Testimony of Paul Haggerty

Text: Q. Do you know a James Breslin? A. Yes. Q. How do you know James Breslin? A. I've known James Breslin for goodly number of years as a close personal friend, sports enthusiast. We have gone to many, many basketball games, football games. Q. Does Mr. Breslin hold any position in the Municipal Government of Lyndhurst? A. Yes. Q. What is that? A. Its Town Magistrate, has been for a goodly number of years. Q. His professional occupation? A. He is an attorney. Q. Does he also practice law in the Town of Lyndhurst? A. Yes, he does. Q. Do you have a close, personal relationship with Mr. Breslin? A. Yes, I do. Q. Do you socialize with Mr. Breslin? A. Yes. Q. Is that family or within the political scene? A. More as family rather than the political scene. Certainly not the political scene. Q. Did there come a time in late October of 1996 when Mr. Breslin had a conversation with you about a resume? A. Yes. Q. Would you please tell me what that conversation entailed? A. He mentioned to me that a client had been to visit his office that afternoon with a resume of his son which he is interested in a position with the Lyndhurst Police Department. Q. Has Mr. Breslin ever come to you before with a resume in his hand? A. Not to my recollection. Q. Where did this conversation take place? A. In La Cibeles Restaurant in Lyndhurst. Q. What was the outcome of that conversation? A. The outcome of the conversation was quite brief and as Mr. Breslin had mentioned that when his client had left he had realized there was also an envelope containing what he thought would be money to hand to me and upon hearing that, I said words to the effect that is the end of that conversation. I do not want to hear anything further along those lines. Q. Did you ask who his client had been? A. I did not. Q. Did you leave the restaurant at that time? A. Probably not. Q. Did Mr. Breslin remain in your company? A. Probably so. Q. There was no conversation about the resume? A. That is correct. Q. What did you do after you had this conversation with Mr. Breslin? A. What I normally do every night, I'm home at 6:30 in my own home. Q. Did you tell anyone at that time? A. I told my wife and my younger son Brian. Q. What did you tell them? A. I told themI repeated what James Breslin had told to me and that I felt that there was money involved, in that envelope. I didn't want to hear further about it. I went further to state upon being queried by my wife, no, I did not, honey, ask who that client was. I do not want to know who the client was or anything about that individual. Q. When was the next time you spoke to Mr. Breslin about this incident? A. Probably not for another two or three weeks. Q. Did you mention this to anybody besides your wife and son? A. Only to our Acting Chief Jim Tobin. Q. Was that before or after you spoke with Mr. Breslin about the name? A. That was before I spoke to Mr. Breslin about the name of the client. I believe it was. I believe it was. Q. Why did you ask Mr. Breslin the name of the client? A. I asked Mr. Breslin the name of the client because I had heard conversations from my wife, a retired school teacher, about a particular name and certain things that were taking place with the Board of Education insurance, however that did not bring me to speak to Mr. Breslin at that time, but my curiosity had me thinking that both Mr. Breslin as well as I, were probably trying to be set up, to bring us both down. When I heard that name I did ask Mr. Breslin the name and he mentioned this particular name which ties in with the same name I had heard being mentioned about the Lyndhurst Board of Education insurance monies or funds, I went to Jim Tobin and mentioned it to him. Q. What was the name that was mentioned by the Board of Education? A. I only know the last name as Ciardella. Q. Mr. Breslin told you? A. Ciardella. Q. As a result of the conversation with Acting Chief Tobin, did you memorialize that incident on paper? A. Yes, I did. Q. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Breslin about being contacted? A. Yes, I did. Q. What was the result of that? A. Well, I had mentioned to Mr. Breslin that I had brought this to the attention of Mr. TobinChief Tobin and Chief Tobin asked me to put this in writing and I gave Jim Breslin a copy of the very same note which I gave to Chief Tobin and which you folks have in your hand. Q. Did Mr. Breslin ever tell you how much money was in the envelope? A. He did not. SR. INV. GENTLE: Did you ever ask him? A. No, I did not. SR. INV. GENTLE: Mr. Haggerty, you mentioned that when you had your meeting at La Cibeles Restaurant and you spoke to Mr. Breslin about this he mentioned it to you in fact? A. Pardon me, may I just interrupt here. I don't like the term meeting, Jim Breslin and I and several other business people and professional people gather there perhaps for a drink or two in the evening. SR. INV. GENTLE: Did anyone else hear the conversation? A. Meeting sounds clandestine to me. SR. INV. GENTLE: Did anyone hear you discuss this matter? A. I don't know, probably not. SR. INV. GENTLE: Did you recommend to Mr. Breslin for him to do anything at that point regarding this issue? A. No. SR. INV. GENTLE: Did it ever come up during the first discussion that you and Mr. Breslin discussed this matter at La Cibeles; is that correct? A. Yes. SR. INV. GENTLE: He mentioned to you about this resume and envelope and briefly indicated he believed that there was some type of problem? A. Yes. SR. INV. GENTLE: Is that fair to say? A. That is correct. SR. INV. GENTLE: You suspected some type of cash maybe in that envelope; is that also fair to say? A. Correct. SR. INV. GENTLE: Did you instruct or recommend to Mr. Breslin for him to do anything with this? A. Well, now I'm going to put it in vernaculars. I said to Jim Breslin at that time, I said if there's any cash in there take it and tell your client to shove it up his ass, pardon my French. SR. INV. GENTLE: Did he say anything to you? A. I guess he laughed, I don't know. SR. INV. GENTLE: Did Mr. Breslin know that you were going to speak with Chief Tobin? A. Yes. SR. INV. GENTLE: You mentioned that prior? A. I don't recall if it was prior or afterwards. SR. INV. GENTLE: You don't recall? A. I probably mentioned to him that I was going to speak to Chief Tobin. SR. INV. GENTLE: How long after that La Cibeles gathering? A. I can't recall. This whole thing transpired between the time of our initial conversation and the time that my brain started to click in and say I don't like what's going on around here, could have been two or three, three and a half weeks. I don't recall. SR. INV. GENTLE: Do you know what attorney is representing the Board of Education in Lyndhurst? A. Richard Delassio. SR. INV. GENTLE: Do you know if Mr. Delassio is also representing the Board of Education in the insurance matter? A. I can't say one way or the other on that. SR. INV. GENTLE: Do you know if Mr. Breslin is? A. I don't know if he is. I doubt if he is. SR. INV.GENTLE: But you don't specifically recall speaking to Mr. Breslin prior to your letter that you were going to bring to Chief Tobin's attention? A. Honestly I don't recall, honestly. SR. INV. GENTLE: Prior to you providing Mr. Breslin a letter on November 27th 1996, is this the copy of the letter I'm showing you here? A. That's it, yes. SR. INV. GENTLE: During that period of time from when you spoke with him at La Cibeles until November 27, 1996, did you have any conversation at all with Mr. Breslin during that time period regarding this matter? A. I'm trying to think if that'sI probably did and that's when the prodding of my wife and son as to who it was, let's find out who this slime bag is, I probably did get the name and when he mentioned the name Ciardella to me, it was probably at that point that I had ducktailed a couple of things together, this particular name relative to the Board of Education and this particular situation and I said now I'm going to go there. SR. INV. GENTLE: I don't have any further questions, thank you. Q. Have you told anyone outside of Mr. Breslin and your immediate family about this incident? A. Absolutely not. Absolutely and unequivocally no. Q. Has Mr. Breslin ever brought you resumes before? A. I don't believe so, not to my recollection, no. Q. As the police commissioner, have you ever been approached by anyone whether in the department or outside of the department about hiring individuals? A. Constantly. Q. Have you hired any of those individuals? A. Probably.
Q. How do you know Judge Breslin? A. I've known him as a friend for, I dare say, some 25 years, if not longer. As a matter of fact, his dad and my father-in-law were very, very dear friends, and both served as prosecutors a long time ago. Q. Is it fair to say you're very close friends with Judge Breslin? A. Yes, it is. Q. Do you have a business relationship with the Judge? A. No, he's in the legal profession, and I'm in the investment business. Q. Are you his stockbroker? A. I am, sir. Q. Do you socialize with him frequently? A. Occasionally. Q. About how often do you see him socially? A. Well, we might see one another two or three times a week. Q. Do you presently hold any public positions? A. No, sir. Q. Did you hold public office in or about October `96? A. Yes, I did. Q. And what office did you hold at that time? A. I was the Commissioner of Public Safety, which included police, fire, first aid, the court system, et cetera. Q. In that capacity as commissioner, did you have the power to hire police officers? A. Yes, sir. Q. And in fact, you hired Judge Breslin's son as a police officer. Is that correct? A. That is correct, sir. Q. Okay. Going back to 1996, did there come a time when you and Judge Breslin had a conversation about a resume for the police department? A. Yes, sir. Q. And what did that conversation entail? A. To the best of my recollection, he mentioned that there was a client into his office a few days prior, because this was on a Monday or a Tuesday, a weekend had transpired, with an application for the police department. And he went further to tell me that when hehe was curious as to take a look at the application, opened it up, and he saw two additional envelopes in there. Q. Did you ask him what was in those envelopes? A. He assumed there was money in it. Q. And what was your reaction to that conversation? A. My reaction was my normal reaction. Q. Which is? A. Which was upsetment. Q. And did you say something to the judge at that time? A. Apparently, I said words to the extent that, you can tell him what to do with that application and whatever else accompanies it. Q. Did you ask the Judge what the name of his client was? A. No, it was a couple or three days later. Q. What did you do after that first conversation? Did you go home? A. Surely. I'm home by 6:30 every evening. Q. And did you tell anyone about the nature of that conversation you had with Judge Breslin? A. I certainly did. Q. And who did you discuss that with? A. My wife and my sons. Q. And what was their reaction? A. What would anybody's reaction be? I guess they were stunned. Because anybody who knows me knows you don't pull that stuff off with me. Q. Did they give you any advice as to what your next step should be? A. I guess they had to calm me down first, settle me down, because I was just like very upset. Like I couldn't think straight. Q. When was the next timeDid you subsequently discuss this issue with Judge Breslin a second time? A. Yeah, when I asked him who it was, the name of the individual. Q. And do you recall when that second conversation took place? A. Oh, it was probably about three or four days after the first one, the next time I saw him. Q. Do you remember giving a sworn statement to the Prosecutor's office about this matter? A. Accordingyes, I do. Q. I'm going to ask you to take a look at what's been marked C-2 in evidence. I ask you to look it over. A. January 2nd, okay. Q. And do you remember, or could you identify that document? A. I had never seen the document before. I remember making a sworn statement. Q. So you were under oath at the time you gave the statement? A. Absolutely. Q. And does C-2 appear to be a transcript of that sworn statement that you gave? A. Well, I was up at the Prosecutor's office on two occasions prior to giving a sworn statement. So I, you know, I just don't know. I haven't read this thing. If I said it. Q. Take a minute and look it over, please. A. All right. Q. Mr. Haggerty, to save the Court's time, I would direct you to the first page of the statement. Is that captioned: Statement of Paul Haggerty? A. Yes. Q. And at the bottom of page one it indicates witness sworn, and you taking the oath. Is that correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. I would direct you to page six of C 2. A. Um-hmm. Q. Actually, if you could turn to page five first. There's a, several questions and answers about Mr. Breslin coming to you with the resumeI'm sorry, describing the conversation about the resume at the top of page five. Do you see that question and answer? A. Right. Q. Do you remember being asked these questions by the Prosecutor's office? A. I guess so. JUDGE MUIR: Do you remember them, Mr. Haggerty? THE WITNESS: I don't remember the exact, each question, your Honor, but of course I remember it, yes. This was all part of my testimony, I'm sure. Sure. Q. Okay. Then turning to page six, the second question from the bottom, I would ask that you read that question and answer into the record, please. A. When was the next time you spoke to Mr. Breslin about this incident? Q. And the answer? A. Probably not for another two or three weeks. QUESTION: Did you mention this to anybody besides your wife and sons? ANSWER: Only to our acting chief, Jim Tobin. Q. So in your sworn statement, C-2, you indicate that the second conversation took place approximately two or three weeks after the first. Is that correct? A. I don't recall. Maybe that's what I say here, but I don't think it was. Two or three weeks? It couldn't have been that long since I had seen him. Q. I would also direct you to page 13 of C-2. And I would ask that you read into the record the first and second question and answer at the top of that page, 13. A. So it took you two or three weeks to get up the nerve to ask Mr. Breslin? It wasn't nerve. I didn't want to know anything. I'm a crazy sort of guy. Why did you want to know in two or three weeks? ANSWER: Because I felt there was something going on to set up certain people, number one included. Q. Thank you. So your sworn statement in Julyor I'm sorry, January `97 indicates in several places, does it not, that you raised the matter with Judge Breslin a second time in two or three weeks? A. That's what it says. Q. And you were under oath at the time you gave that testimony, were you not? A. Yes. Q. So is it fair to say that that testimony was true to the best of your belief at that time? A. I would imagine, yes. Q. When this second conversation took place, was it you who initiated that second conversation with Judge Breslin? A. I don't remember. Q. Were you interested in learning the name of Judge Breslin's client that had made this offer to you? A. Yes. Q. And did Judge Breslin tell you the name of that client? A. Yes. Q. And what was your reaction when you heard that client's name? A. My reaction was that this all tied in to a particular conspiracy that was in place to, to hurt my reputation. Q. And did you tell the Judge what you were going to do about this? A. I believe I did the next day. Q. And what did you tell him? A. Well, there again, you're looking for words. I mean I can tell you the essence of it. I said, we're going to the Prosecutor's office with this, I'm telling Tobin. Q. So it was you who went to Mr. Tobin after the second conversation? A. I don't recall exactly when, but it was very shortly after. Very early on. Q. Was it after the second conversation? A. I just don't remember. Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you to take a look at C-2 again, please, page 7, and ask you to read into the record the second question and answer on page 7. A. That was before I spoke to Mr. Breslin Q. Sorry, the second question. A. Second question. QUESTION: Why did you ask Mr. Breslin the name of the client? ANSWER: I asked Mr. Breslin the name of the client because I had heard conversations from my wife, a retired school teacher, about a particular name and certain things that were taking place with the board of education insurance. However, that did not bring me to speak to Mr. Breslin at the time, and my curiosity had me thinking both Mr. Breslin as well as I were probably being set up to bring us both down. When I heard that name, I did ask Mr. Breslin the name, and he mentioned this particular name, which ties in with the same name I had heard JUDGE MUIR: You have to read it entirely. THE WITNESS: Yes. JUDGE MUIR: You stopped at: When I heard. A. When I heard the name, I did ask Mr. Breslin the name, and he mentioned this particular name, which ties in with the same name I had heard being mentioned about the Lyndhurst Board of Education insurance moneys or funds. I went to Jim Tobin and mentioned it to him. Q. Thank you. And that name that was mentioned was Ciardella; is that correct? A. Yes, sir. Q. So after you heard the name Ciardella, you then went to Jim Tobin? A. Yes. Q. In either conversation you had with Judge Breslin about this, did he indicate what he was going to do with the money in the envelopes? A. No. Q. So after you went to Acting Chief Tobin, do you recall how soon after that second conversation you went to speak to Mr. Tobin? A. Would you phrase that again. Q. I'm sorry. How long after the second conversation did you go report this to Mr. Tobin? A. I would say the next day. Q. And did Mr. Tobin ask that you put your report in writing? A. No, sir. Q. I'm going to ask you to look at C-9 which has been marked into evidence? A. Yeah, this is as of the 27th of November, though. Q. Do you recognize this statement? A. Yeah, but that's as of November 27th. Q. I haven't asked the question. Do you recognize the statement? A. Oh, yeah, sure. Q. And could you describe this statement? A. Yes. A lengthy period of time, what seemed to me to be two or three weeks after initially mentioning the situation to Acting Chief Tobin, and I believe the first day, my first conversation with him Q. This is a statement, I'm sorry, this is a statement that you gave to Mr. Tobin at his request? A. Yes. Q. And it's dated November 27th, 1996. Is that correct? A. Right. Q. And the first line of that statement, could you read that into the record, please. A. Approximately three or four weeks ago a dear friend, an attorney, James A. Breslin, Junior, also a magistrate court judge, told me that a client of his came to his office on a particular matter. Q. Thank you. So that indicates, does it not, that three or four weeks prior to November 27th, Mr. Breslin mentioned this to you for the first time. Is that correct? A. That's correct. Q. Okay. And then your sworn statement to the Prosecutor's Office indicates that two or three weeks after the first conversation you had a second conversation. Is that correct? A. That's what the statement says, yes, sir. Q. And that statement was given under oath. Is that correct? A. Correct. Q. From the time Mr. Tobin asked you to put your report in writing to the time you submitted this report, how long did it take you to write up this report, do you recall? A. Well, he asked me to put it in writing, I did it that very next morning in my office. Q. And A. But he had been aware Q. You've answered my question. Thank you. A. All right. Q. So you wrote the statement the following morning. And when did you hand that statement to Mr. Tobin, same day it was done? A. The same day. Q. Now, returning to C-2 for a minute, prior to giving that sworn statement did you have a pre-interview as Prosecutor's office? A. At least one or two. I'd like to look. The date of this is January 2nd. Yes, I had been there at least twice prior to that. Q. Did you spend some time with the Prosecutor's representatives on January 2nd before you gave this sworn statement? A. Did I spend some time with them prior? Would you be a little more specific as to what you mean there. Q. Did you, did you walk in the door that day, take the oath, and immediately give the sworn statement? A. I don't remember. Q. Did you hear the sergeant's testimony this morning? Were you in the courtroom for that? A. Yes. Q. Did you hear the testimony about her, about her recollection of your comments regarding your purpose in bringing this matter to the Prosecutor's attention? A. It was, to be honest with you, sir, it was difficult to hear her. I was in the second or third row back there and I couldn't hear too well. Q. I'm going to show you what's been marked C 15 for identification and ask you to examine that document. Specifically, I would direct you to the second to the last paragraph on page two. Do you see that paragraph, sir? A. Um-hmm. Q. That paragraph quotes comments that you made in this interview report. Is that correct? A. Apparently so. Q. Did you make those comments, sir? A. I'm sorry? Q. Did you make those comments? A. I don't remember. But they're here, so I guess I did. Q. I'm sorry, just one or two final questions. Again, referring back to C-2, the sworn statement, I'd ask that you take a look at the last page of the sworn statement, which again refers to your conversation with Judge Breslin. Could you read the top question and the following answer into the record, please. A. Did he tell you what he was going to do with the envelope? ANSWER: He said, I'm waiting to hear back from the individual. I hadn't heard back from this guy down in Toms River or wherever. MR. MILLER: Thank you. No further questions.       CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. FLOOD: Q. Mr. Haggerty, how long have you known James Breslin? A. I've, just to venture a guess, I'd say a quarter century. Q. Are you familiar with his reputation in the Lyndhurst community for honesty and integrity? A. Yes, sir. Q. Please tell the judges on this panel what that reputation is. A. The name Breslin in our town, your Honors, is synonymous with the finest names in Bergen County. Never has there been anything but wonderful things said about the Breslins. Q. Let's focus on Jim Breslin. I want you to focus on what you know about Jim Breslin's reputation. A. Jim Breslin. As a judge and magistrate, he has been known as fair and honorable and yet stern as anyone ever. He's probably been the longest serving judge in the 40 plus years that I've lived in Lyndhurst, longest serving by far. The policemen with whom he has to work ever so closely, when called out on arraignments at all times of the day and night, hold Mr. Breslin in the utmost respect. Everybody in town just reveres him for being fair, quiet, a very quiet individual, keeps to himself, loves his sports, loves his golf, talk to you about sports until the crows Q. Mr. Haggerty, have you ever known James Breslin to be untruthful to you? A. Absolutely never. Q. Have you ever known James Breslin to do anything dishonest with respect to any of your dealings with him? A. Never. Q. Have you ever known of Judge Breslin to do anything dishonest as far as any other members of the community are concerned? A. Absolutely not. Q. Now, you stated when you were testifying on direct something to the effect that, anyone who knows me knows that you are extremely honest and would not do anything improper as the police commissioner or a borough official. A. Yes, sir. Q. Just what were you trying to say to the members of this panel about what your reputation was for honesty and integrity in Lyndhurst? A. Now you're asking me to talk about myself. But I want everybody, your Honors to know that reputation means more to me than anything else in this world. You ask me something, you're going to get an honest answer. You're never going to get a dishonest answer. You try to bribe me and you're not going to get anyplace. It happened back in 1965, when I happened to be the president of the board of education and was in a position to have a new school built or something or other built. And someone came up to me as I was exiting a funeral parlor with an envelope and says: Here's $5,000.00, now just do what you got to do. And I let that be known at that time. You just don't do this. I mean I spent 11 years in the Marine Corps. And I consider myself a good church goer, a good family man, and you can say anything, but you're not going to get me on my reputation. Q. Would it be fair to say that it was common knowledge in Lyndhurst that Paul Haggerty was not for sale? A. Everybody knows it. Q. Would it be fair to say that at no time did you ever assist anyone to get a job on the police department because anyone had offered you anything improper by way of money or any other consideration? A. That's correct. Q. Would it be fair to say that everyone that had been hired as a police officer in Lyndhurst under your watch got the job because they were qualified and applied in the normal course of events? A. Yes, sir. Q. Would it be fair to say that Judge Breslin was aware of your reputation and the way you conducted yourself as a councilman and as a police commissioner in Lyndhurst? A. Absolutely. Q. And would it be fair to say that Judge Breslin knew that under no circumstances would Paul Haggerty take any money or do anything improper to get someone a job on the Lyndhurst Police Department? A. Absolutely. Q. And you saw Judge Breslin on two or three occasions a week. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir. Q. And would it be fair to say that he knew you as well as anyone else did in Lyndhurst, that was not a family member, of course? A. Certainly did.       Q. Now, as I understand your testimony, you and Judge Breslin would meet on two or three times a week to socialize and perhaps have a drink before going home in the evening? A. Correct. Q. And would it be fair to say that Judge Breslin knew that if he wanted to tell you something that he could find you at a particular location in Lyndhurst? A. Sure. Q. And what's that location again, please? A. LaSobella's Restaurant on Ridge Road in Lyndhurst. Q. Now, I would like you to describe for the panel what the situation was with respect to the chief of police position in Lyndhurst at the time of this incident. A. Okay. The situation that existed in Lyndhurst during my four year term of office as public safety director was, was a horror story. I took that particular office in May, mid May of 1993, a four year term of office. JUDGE MUIR: Mr. Haggerty, I think he's talking just specifically at the time this arose. So MR. FLOOD: Let me rephrase the question. Q. Was there some controversy as to who the chief of police was, and was there some confusion with respect to A. Yes, there was. Q. that particular position? A. Yes. Q. Please try to describe that situation to the members of the panel. A. There was a tremendous amount of controversy and a tremendous amount of people trying to wheel and deal and, how do you describe it? I read books on it. Q. Well, let me ask you this. Was there, had there, had one of the chiefs resigned? Who was that? A. All right. I guess the best way to describe this situation is that in, what prompted me to call the Attorney General in which subsequently brought the Prosecutor inlet me just. In July of 1996 our chief at that time, John Scalese, was taking his terminal leave to lead up to retirement. And the day before he was leaving, I appointed someone to act in his stead as acting chief during his absence. That was done perhaps at four o'clock or so on a Thursday afternoon. And on the Friday morning which was to be his last day, he was only coming in to clean out his desk, he had countermanded my order and named his own successor to himself, who happened to be our Deputy Chief at the time. The situation was most upsetting and that Friday afternoon, the day of the occurrence, I contacted the Attorney General's office to get a ruling, and because it was a Friday afternoon in the summertime, and you couldn't get any kind of a ruling then. So Monday morning, actually I guess it was Monday morning, then, the Attorney General's office sent a letter to Acting Prosecutor Charles Buckley in Lyndhurst, copies of which I have, I think it's very pertinent, if I may. Q. Just, the point I'm trying to make is that there was controversy in terms of who would be the chief of police. Correct? A. Very, very major controversy. Q. And there was, before Tobin was placed there as the acting chief, there was disagreement as to who should be the chief. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And it was not clear how long Captain Tobin from the Prosecutor's Office would be the chief of police. Correct? A. It wasn't clear. Q. Now, you also alluded I think when you were testifying on direct to the situation that existed in Lyndhurst that I believe you felt someone was out to get you. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir. Q. And can you just briefly describe what caused you to have those feelings, and what the situation was politically speaking at the time in Lyndhurst? A. I can cite several examples. Leading up to the retirement of Chief Scalese, there were three leading candidates. There was Deputy Chief and two captains, any of whom could have been appointed chief. And everybody had his own favorite, so to speak, in various clicks here and clicks there, and everybody was trying to figure out whom I was going to name as Chief Scalese's successor. There was a time where Deputy Chief Bob Giangeruso came into my office and told me that I had to make him chief. I had to make him chief. And that if I didn't, I'd be hearing from his friend and attorney, Bobby Galantucci. I was always hearing that name thrown in my face from Bobby Giangeruso. There would be evenings when, or there would be days or occasions where I would hear from people we know, the police department, you better watch out, they're looking to get you on some trumped up charge of DWI as you come out of a restaurant. Even had me paranoid up in Paramus where my business office was at the time. I know I went to a social club in town on a particular Friday evening and I was told, be careful when you go out, there's a police officer parked across the street looking to nail you. So needless to say, I simply called my son and said, come on down and pick me up. Although I was fine. But there were numerous, numerous situations where things of this sort were taking place. Q. Would it be fair to say, then, Mr. Haggerty, that there were many people that lived in town that were not happy with some of the decisions that you had made as police commissioner and as councilman? A. That is correct. Q. Would it be fair to say that you were concerned that someone would try to set you up in some way because of their dislike for you and some of the things you had done? A. I was very concerned, and so was my family. Q. And would it be fair to say that in the two or three times a week when you would get together with your friend, Jimmy Breslin, that the concerns that you had were made known to him? A. Very definitely. Q. So he was aware of your concern that someone would be trying to set you up. Correct? A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, when Judge Breslin came to the restaurant and told you about the application he had received from a client, did you think he was trying to bribe you or see if you were willing to accept any money to give some guy's son a job on the Lyndhurst Police Department? A. Absolutely not, because he knows me and has known me for a quarter of a century or more, he knows me better. No, absolutely not. He was looking for: What are we going to do about this? Q. Just so there's no misunderstanding with this panel, do you think there was any chance at all that Breslin was trying to see if you would take the money? A. Absolutely not. Q. Now, what do you think Breslin was attempting to do the first time he spoke to you at that restaurant? A. Looking for help, or maybeI don't know. Looking for help, tip me off, what are we going to do about this crazy situation? Q. Now, you cut him off before he gave any more details. Correct? A. Yes, I did. Q. You went home that night and you were upset and you spoke to members of your family. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Would it be fair to say that it was the next time that you saw Jimmy Breslin that the two of you discussed this matter again? A. Well, you see, sometimes Q. If you remember? A. I just don't remember. I mean sometimes, you know, he's got a court case here, a court case there or wherever, or I'm tied up on business. I couldn't tell you what time it was, but it was, I'm saying, I don't remember. Q. Well, was it shortly thereafter that he spoke to you and you spoke to him about this matter again? A. I'd say probably within a week. JUDGE MUIR: Mr. Haggerty, you're telling us you have no fresh recollection? THE WITNESS: Honestly, your Honor, no, I can't recall that. JUDGE MUIR: All right. THE WITNESS: If I mayno, I guess I can't talk. JUDGE MUIR: That's all right. Q. Well, do you recall, though, given the normal pattern that you had of socializing with Judge Breslin that you saw him two or three times a week? A. Yeah, we would normally see two, three times a week. Q. Would it be fair to say if the first time you and he discussed this matter was early in the week, on a Monday, that there's a high degree of probability that you saw him at least one other time MR. FLEMING: Objection, your Honor. He's testified he has no recollection. JUDGE MUIR: Sustained. Q. Do you have any recollection when it was the next time you saw James Breslin that week? A. No. I don't remember talking a long time ago. Q. Now, when do you recallnow, at the second meeting you and Judge Breslin agreed that this had to be reported to someone in the Prosecutor's office. Correct? A. Right. Q. And at the time that Judge Breslin attempted to discuss this with you the first time, you were the police commissioner? A. Correct. Q. And the police commissioner oversaw the police department. Correct? A. Correct. Q. And the police commissioner also had supervisory authority over the Municipal Court personnel in Lyndhurst. Correct? A. Correct. Q. Now, would it be fair to say that you and Judge Breslin decided that you had a responsibility to report this to the Prosecutor's office? A. Yeah. Yes. Q. And you told him that you would in fact report this to the Prosecutor's office. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And he was in complete agreement that this should be done. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Now, who did you report this to? A. Jim Tobin. Q. And you knew that he was a member of the Bergen County Prosecutor's Office at the time. Correct? A. I believe he was the second highest ranking member of the Bergen County Prosecutor's Office. Q. To the best of your recollection, when in November of 1996 did you tell Captain Tobin of the Bergen County Prosecutor's office what had been reported to you by Jim Breslin? A. To the best of my recollection, it's early November. JUDGE MUIR: Early November? THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. Q. And when we refer to early November, would it be fair to say, and we're talking about the first week in November? A. No, I'd say no later than the second week in November. Q. And do you recall having any conversations where Judge Breslin would ask you: Have you reported this to the Prosecutor's office? A. We would ask one another on a daily basis, what have you heard, what have you heard from the Prosecutor's office? I would ask him, Captain Tobin, on a daily basis, what have you heard, what have you heard? I haven't heard back from him yet, I haven't heard back from him yet. I would ask every day of Jim Breslin, what have you heard, assuming that he was contacted by someone in the Prosecutor's office. This went on absolutely, it's virtually every day, every day we would ask one another, what have you heard. And I would ask Tobin every single, solitary day. And I was in that police department every day. Some of my policemen would wonder why I spent 30 and 35 hours a week there all the time. I was always there. Q. And did Jim Breslin ask you on a very frequent basis? A. Every time we'd see one another. What have you heard? What have you heard? Nothing, nothing. Well, what the heck are they doing? This is the gospel truth. Q. And the note that is in evidence, and I believe that's dated November 26? A. I got it right here, 27th. Q. 27th. Was that note or report prepared the same day that Tobin finally asked you to reduce something to writing? A. The day that he asked me to write it. Had it typed up at the office the next morning. Q. Now, did you at any time think that Judge Breslin was attempting to bribe you? A. Absolutely, unequivocally not. Q. Did you at any time think that Judge Breslin was testing the waters to see if you would be receptive to taking money to get some guy a job? A. No. He knew I wouldn't be receptive to anything of that sort. MR. FLOOD: I have no further questions at this time.