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	WEBVTT

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	The following is a conversation with Keoki Jackson.

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	He's the CTO of Lockheed Martin,

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	a company that through his long history

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	has created some of the most incredible engineering

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	marvels human beings have ever built,

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	including planes that fly fast and undetected,

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	defense systems that intersect nuclear threats that

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	can take the lives of millions, and systems that venture out

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	into space, the moon, Mars, and beyond.

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	And these days, more and more, artificial intelligence

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	has an assistive role to play in these systems.

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	I've read several books in preparation

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	for this conversation.

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	It is a difficult one, because in part,

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	Lockheed Martin builds military systems

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	that operate in a complicated world that often does not

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	have easy solutions in the gray area between good and evil.

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	I hope one day this world will rid itself of war

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	in all its forms.

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	But the path to achieving that in a world that

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	does have evil is not obvious.

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	What is obvious is good engineering

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	and artificial intelligence research

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	has a role to play on the side of good.

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	Lockheed Martin and the rest of our community

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	are hard at work at exactly this task.

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	We talk about these and other important topics

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	in this conversation.

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	Also, most certainly, both Kiyoki and I have a passion for space,

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	us humans venturing out toward the stars.

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	We talk about this exciting future as well.

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	This is the artificial intelligence podcast.

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	If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube,

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	give it five stars on iTunes, support it on Patreon,

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	or simply connect with me on Twitter

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	at Lex Freedman, spelled F R I D M A N.

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	And now, here's my conversation with Kiyoki Jackson.

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	I read several books on Lockheed Martin recently.

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	My favorite, in particular, is by Ben Rich,

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	called Skonkork's personal memoir.

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	It gets a little edgy at times.

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	But from that, I was reminded that the engineers of Lockheed

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	Martin have created some of the most incredible engineering

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	marvels human beings have ever built throughout the 20th century

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	and the 21st.

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	Do you remember a particular project or system at Lockheed

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	or before that at the Space Shuttle Columbia

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	that you were just in awe at the fact

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	that us humans could create something like this?

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	That's a great question.

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	There's a lot of things that I could draw on there.

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	When you look at the Skonkorks and Ben Rich's book,

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	in particular, of course, it starts off

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	with basically the start of the jet age and the P80.

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	I had the opportunity to sit next to one of the Apollo

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	astronauts, Charlie Duke, recently at dinner.

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	And I said, hey, what's your favorite aircraft?

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	And he said, well, it was by far the F104 Starfighter, which

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	was another aircraft that came out of Lockheed there.

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	What kind of?

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	It was the first Mach 2 jet fighter aircraft.

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	They called it the missile with a man in it.

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	And so those are the kinds of things

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	I grew up hearing stories about.

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	Of course, the SR 71 is incomparable

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	as kind of the epitome of speed, altitude, and just

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	the coolest looking aircraft ever.

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	So there's a reconnaissance that's

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	a plane that's a intelligence surveillance

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	and reconnaissance aircraft that was designed

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	to be able to outrun, basically go faster

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	than any air defense system.

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	But I'll tell you, I'm a space junkie.

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	That's why I came to MIT.

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	That's really what took me, ultimately, to Lockheed Martin.

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	And I grew up, and so Lockheed Martin, for example,

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	has been essentially at the heart of every planetary mission,

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	like all the Mars missions we've had a part in.

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	And we've talked a lot about the 50th anniversary of Apollo

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	here in the last couple of weeks, right?

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	But remember, 1976, July 20, again, the National Space

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	Day, so the landing of the Viking lander on the surface

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	of Mars, just a huge accomplishment.

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	And when I was a young engineer at Lockheed Martin,

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	I got to meet engineers who had designed various pieces

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	of that mission as well.

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	So that's what I grew up on is these planetary missions,

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	the start of the space shuttle era,

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	and ultimately had the opportunity

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	to see Lockheed Martin's part in what

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	we can maybe talk about some of these here,

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	but Lockheed Martin's part in all of these space journeys

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	over the years.

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	Do you dream, and I apologize for getting philosophical at times,

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	or sentimental, I do romanticize the notion

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	of space exploration.

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	So do you dream of the day when us humans colonize

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	another planet, like Mars, or a man, a woman, a human being,

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	steps on Mars?

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	Absolutely.

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	And that's a personal dream of mine.

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	I haven't given up yet on my own opportunity

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	to fly into space, but from the Lockheed Martin perspective,

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	this is something that we're working towards every day.

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	And of course, we're building the Orion spacecraft, which

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	is the most sophisticated human rated spacecraft ever built.

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	And it's really designed for these deep space journeys,

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	starting with the moon, but ultimately going to Mars.

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	And being the platform from a design perspective,

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	we call the Mars Base Camp to be able to take humans

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	to the surface, and then after a mission of a couple of weeks,

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	bring them back up safely.

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	And so that is something I want to see happen during my time

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	at Lockheed Martin.

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	So I'm pretty excited about that.

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	And I think once we prove that's possible,

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	colonization might be a little bit further out,

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	but it's something that I'd hope to see.

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	So maybe you can give a little bit

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	of an overview of, so Lockheed Martin

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	has partnered with a few years ago with Boeing

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	to work with the DoD and NASA to build launch systems

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	and rockets with the ULA.

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	What's beyond that?

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	What's Lockheed's mission, timeline, and long term

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	dream in terms of space?

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	You mentioned the moon.

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	I've heard you talk about asteroids as Mars.

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	What's the timeline?

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	What's the engineering challenges?

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	And what's the dream long term?

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	Yeah, I think the dream long term is

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	to have a permanent presence in space beyond low Earth

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	orbit, ultimately with a long term presence on the moon

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	and then to the planets to Mars.

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	And it's very interrupting that.

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	So long term presence means sustained and sustainable

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	presence in an economy, a space economy,

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	that really goes alongside that.

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	With human beings and being able to launch perhaps

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	from those, so like hop.

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	You know, there's a lot of energy

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	that goes in those hops, right?

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	So I think the first step is being

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	able to get there and to be able to establish sustained basis,

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	right, and build from there.

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	And a lot of that means getting, as you know,

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	things like the cost of launch down.

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	And you mentioned United Launch Alliance.

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	And so I don't want to speak for ULA,

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	but obviously they're working really hard

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	to, on their next generation of launch vehicles,

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	to maintain that incredible mission success record

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	that ULA has, but ultimately continue

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	to drive down the cost and make the flexibility, the speed,

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	and the access ever greater.

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	So what's the missions that are in the horizon

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	that you could talk to?

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	Is there a hope to get to the moon?

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	Absolutely, absolutely.

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	I mean, I think you know this, or you

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	may know this, there's a lot of ways

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	to accomplish some of these goals.

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	And so that's a lot of what's in discussion today.

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	But ultimately, the goal is to be

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	able to establish a base, essentially

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	in CIS lunar space that would allow for ready transfer

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	from orbit to the lunar surface and back again.

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	And so that's sort of that near term,

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	I say near term in the next decade or so vision,

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	starting off with a stated objective

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	by this administration to get back to the moon in the 2024,

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	2025 time frame, which is right around the corner here.

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	How big of an engineering challenge is that?

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	I think the big challenge is not so much to go, but to stay.

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	And so we demonstrated in the 60s

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	that you could send somebody up, do a couple of days of mission,

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	and bring them home again successfully.

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	Now we're talking about doing that,

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	I'd say more to, I don't want to say an industrial scale,

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	but a sustained scale.

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	So permanent habitation, regular reuse of vehicles,

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	the infrastructure to get things like fuel, air, consumables,

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	replacement parts, all the things that you need to sustain

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	that kind of infrastructure.

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	So those are certainly engineering challenges.

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	There are budgetary challenges.

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	And those are all things that we're

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	going to have to work through.

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	The other thing, and I shouldn't,

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	I don't want to minimize this.

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	I mean, I'm excited about human exploration,

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	but the reality is our technology

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	and where we've come over the last 40 years, essentially,

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	has changed what we can do with robotic exploration as well.

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	And to me, it's incredibly thrilling.

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	This seems like old news now, but the fact

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	that we have rovers driving around the surface of Mars

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	and sending back data is just incredible.

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	The fact that we have satellites in orbit around Mars

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	that are collecting weather, they're

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	looking at the terrain, they're mapping,

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	all these kinds of things on a continuous basis,

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	that's incredible.

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	And the fact that you got the time lag,

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	of course, going to the planets, but you can effectively

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	have virtual human presence there in a way

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	that we have never been able to do before.

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	And now, with the advent of even greater processing power,

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	better AI systems, better cognitive systems

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	and decision systems, you put that together

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	with the human piece, and we really

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	opened up the solar system in a whole different way.

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	And I'll give you an example.

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	We've got Osiris Rex, which is a mission to the asteroid Benus.

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	So the spacecraft is out there right now on basically a year

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	mapping activity to map the entire surface of that asteroid

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	in great detail, all autonomously piloted, right?

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	But the idea then that, and this is not too far away,

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	it's going to go in.

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	It's got a sort of fancy vacuum cleaner with a bucket.

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	It's going to collect the sample off the asteroid

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	and then send it back here to Earth.

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	And so we have gone from sort of those tentative steps

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	in the 70s, early landings, video of the solar system

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	to now we've sent spacecraft to Pluto.

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	We have gone to comets and brought and intercepted comets.

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	We've brought stardust, material back.

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	So we've gone far, and there's incredible opportunity

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	to go even farther.

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	So it seems quite crazy that this is even possible,

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	that can you talk a little bit about what

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	it means to orbit an asteroid with a bucket to try

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	to pick up some soil samples?

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	Yeah.

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	So part of it is just kind of the,

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	these are the same kinds of techniques

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	we use here on Earth for high speed, high accuracy imagery,

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	stitching these scenes together, and creating essentially

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	high accuracy world maps.

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	And so that's what we're doing, obviously,

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	on a much smaller scale with an asteroid.

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	But the other thing that's really interesting,

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	you put together sort of that neat control and data

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	and imagery problem.

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	But the stories around how we design the collection,

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	I mean, as essentially, this is the sort of the human

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	ingenuity element, right?

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	That essentially had an engineer who had one day he's like,

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	well, starts messing around with parts, vacuum cleaner,

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	bucket, maybe we could do something like this.

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	And that was what led to what we call the Pogo stick

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	collection, right?

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	Where basically, I think comes down,

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	it's only there for seconds does that collection,

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	grabs the, essentially blows the regolith material

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	into the collection hopper and off it goes.

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	It doesn't really land almost.

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	It's a very short landing.

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	Wow, that's incredible.

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	So what is in those, we talk a little bit more about space.

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	What's the role of the human in all of this?

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	What are the challenges?

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	What are the opportunities for humans

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	as they pilot these vehicles in space

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	and for humans that may step foot on either the moon or Mars?

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	Yeah, it's a great question because I just

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	have been extolling the virtues of robotic and rovers,

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	autonomous systems, and those absolutely have a role.

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	I think the thing that we don't know how to replace today

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	is the ability to adapt on the fly to new information.

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	And I believe that will come, but we're not there yet.

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	There's a ways to go.

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	And so you think back to Apollo 13

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	and the ingenuity of the folks on the ground and on the spacecraft

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	essentially cobbled together a way

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	to get the carbon dioxide scrubbers to work.

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	Those are the kinds of things that ultimately,

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	and I'd say not just from dealing with anomalies,

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	but dealing with new information.

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	You see something, and rather than waiting 20 minutes

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	or half an hour an hour to try to get information back

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	and forth, but be able to essentially

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	revect around the fly, collect different samples,

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	take a different approach, choose different areas to explore.

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	Those are the kinds of things that that human presence enables

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	that still weighs ahead of us on the AI side.

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	Yeah, there's some interesting stuff we'll talk about

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	on the teaming side here on Earth.

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	That's pretty cool to explore.

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	And in space, let's not leave the space piece out.

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	So what is teaming?

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	What does AI and humans working together in space look like?

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	Yeah, one of the things we're working on

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	is a system called Maya, which is, think of it,

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	so it's an AI assistant.

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	And in space, exactly.

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	And think of it as the Alexa in space, right?

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	But this goes hand in hand with a lot of other developments.

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	And so today's world, everything is essentially model based,

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	model based systems engineering to the actual digital tapestry

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	that goes through the design, the build, the manufacture,

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	the testing, and ultimately the sustainment of these systems.

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	And so our vision is really that when our astronauts

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	are there around Mars, you're going

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	to have that entire digital library of the spacecraft,

	16:01.520 --> 16:05.440
	of its operations, all the test data, all the test data

	16:05.440 --> 16:08.040
	and flight data from previous missions

	16:08.040 --> 16:11.760
	to be able to look and see if there are anomalous conditions

	16:11.760 --> 16:16.000
	until the humans, and potentially deal with that

	16:16.000 --> 16:20.640
	before it becomes a bad situation and help

	16:20.640 --> 16:23.160
	the astronauts work through those kinds of things.

	16:23.160 --> 16:26.760
	And it's not just dealing with problems as they come up,

	16:26.760 --> 16:29.160
	but also offering up opportunities

	16:29.160 --> 16:32.440
	for additional exploration capability, for example.

	16:32.440 --> 16:35.120
	So that's the vision is that these

	16:35.120 --> 16:37.720
	are going to take the best of the human to respond

	16:37.720 --> 16:43.480
	to changing circumstances and rely on the best AI

	16:43.480 --> 16:48.560
	capabilities to monitor this almost infinite number

	16:48.560 --> 16:51.520
	of data points and correlations of data points

	16:51.520 --> 16:53.960
	that humans, frankly, aren't that good at.

	16:53.960 --> 16:56.200
	So how do you develop systems in space like this,

	16:56.200 --> 17:01.560
	whether it's a Alexa in space or, in general, any kind

	17:01.560 --> 17:04.880
	of control systems, any kind of intelligent systems,

	17:04.880 --> 17:08.600
	when you can't really test stuff too much out in space,

	17:08.600 --> 17:10.760
	it's very expensive to test stuff.

	17:10.760 --> 17:14.160
	So how do you develop such systems?

	17:14.160 --> 17:18.880
	Yeah, that's the beauty of this digital twin, if you will.

	17:18.880 --> 17:21.080
	And of course, with Lockheed Martin,

	17:21.080 --> 17:24.520
	we've over the past five plus decades

	17:24.520 --> 17:28.120
	been refining our knowledge of the space environment,

	17:28.120 --> 17:33.240
	of how materials behave, dynamics, the controls,

	17:33.240 --> 17:37.160
	the radiation environments, all of these kinds of things.

	17:37.160 --> 17:39.880
	So we're able to create very sophisticated models.

	17:39.880 --> 17:43.440
	They're not perfect, but they're very good.

	17:43.440 --> 17:46.600
	And so you can actually do a lot.

	17:46.600 --> 17:51.440
	I spent part of my career simulating communication

	17:51.440 --> 17:56.400
	spacecraft, missile warning spacecraft, GPS spacecraft,

	17:56.400 --> 17:59.280
	in all kinds of scenarios and all kinds of environments.

	17:59.280 --> 18:01.880
	So this is really just taking that to the next level.

	18:01.880 --> 18:04.000
	The interesting thing is that now you're

	18:04.000 --> 18:07.800
	bringing into that loop a system, depending on how it's

	18:07.800 --> 18:10.520
	developed, that may be non deterministic,

	18:10.520 --> 18:13.160
	it may be learning as it goes.

	18:13.160 --> 18:16.560
	In fact, we anticipate that it will be learning as it goes.

	18:16.560 --> 18:22.160
	And so that brings a whole new level of interest, I guess,

	18:22.160 --> 18:25.320
	into how do you do verification and validation

	18:25.320 --> 18:28.520
	of these non deterministic learning systems

	18:28.520 --> 18:32.720
	in scenarios that may go out of the bounds or the envelope

	18:32.720 --> 18:35.000
	that you have initially designed them to.

	18:35.000 --> 18:39.200
	So this system in its intelligence has the same complexity,

	18:39.200 --> 18:41.040
	some of the same complexity a human does.

	18:41.040 --> 18:43.640
	And it learns over time, it's unpredictable

	18:43.640 --> 18:46.240
	in certain kinds of ways.

	18:46.240 --> 18:50.120
	So you also have to model that when you're thinking about it.

	18:50.120 --> 18:53.440
	So in your thoughts, it's possible

	18:53.440 --> 18:57.240
	to model the majority of situations,

	18:57.240 --> 18:59.640
	the important aspects of situations here on Earth

	18:59.640 --> 19:02.280
	and in space, enough to test stuff.

	19:02.280 --> 19:05.560
	Yeah, this is really an active area of research.

	19:05.560 --> 19:07.440
	And we're actually funding university research

	19:07.440 --> 19:10.080
	in a variety of places, including MIT.

	19:10.080 --> 19:13.720
	This is in the realm of trust and verification

	19:13.720 --> 19:17.920
	and validation of, I'd say, autonomous systems in general.

	19:17.920 --> 19:20.920
	And then as a subset of that, autonomous systems

	19:20.920 --> 19:24.520
	that incorporate artificial intelligence capabilities.

	19:24.520 --> 19:27.880
	And this is not an easy problem.

	19:27.880 --> 19:29.520
	We're working with startup companies.

	19:29.520 --> 19:33.160
	We've got internal R&D, but our conviction

	19:33.160 --> 19:39.200
	is that autonomy and more and more AI enabled autonomy

	19:39.200 --> 19:42.680
	is going to be in everything that Lockheed Martin develops

	19:42.680 --> 19:44.200
	and fields.

	19:44.200 --> 19:48.280
	And autonomy and AI are going to be

	19:48.280 --> 19:50.080
	retrofit into existing systems.

	19:50.080 --> 19:52.400
	They're going to be part of the design

	19:52.400 --> 19:54.440
	for all of our future systems.

	19:54.440 --> 19:56.680
	And so maybe I should take a step back and say,

	19:56.680 --> 19:58.600
	the way we define autonomy.

	19:58.600 --> 20:01.400
	So we talk about autonomy, essentially,

	20:01.400 --> 20:08.400
	a system that composes, selects, and then executes decisions

	20:08.400 --> 20:12.400
	with varying levels of human intervention.

	20:12.400 --> 20:15.720
	And so you could think of no autonomy.

	20:15.720 --> 20:18.400
	So this is essentially a human doing the task.

	20:18.400 --> 20:23.000
	You can think of, effectively, partial autonomy

	20:23.000 --> 20:25.720
	where the human is in the loop.

	20:25.720 --> 20:29.040
	So making decisions in every case

	20:29.040 --> 20:31.040
	about what the autonomous system can do.

	20:31.040 --> 20:33.120
	Either in the cockpit or remotely.

	20:33.120 --> 20:35.960
	Or remotely, exactly, but still in that control loop.

	20:35.960 --> 20:39.800
	And then there's what you'd call supervisory autonomy.

	20:39.800 --> 20:42.360
	So the autonomous system is doing most of the work.

	20:42.360 --> 20:45.880
	The human can intervene to stop it or to change the direction.

	20:45.880 --> 20:47.840
	And then ultimately, full autonomy

	20:47.840 --> 20:50.200
	where the human is off the loop altogether.

	20:50.200 --> 20:52.760
	And for different types of missions,

	20:52.760 --> 20:55.760
	want to have different levels of autonomy.

	20:55.760 --> 20:58.280
	So now take that spectrum and this conviction

	20:58.280 --> 21:01.120
	that autonomy and more and more AI

	21:01.120 --> 21:05.000
	are in everything that we develop.

	21:05.000 --> 21:08.960
	The kinds of things that Lockheed Martin does a lot of times

	21:08.960 --> 21:12.600
	are safety of life critical kinds of missions.

	21:12.600 --> 21:15.920
	Think about aircraft, for example.

	21:15.920 --> 21:20.040
	And so we require, and our customers require,

	21:20.040 --> 21:23.480
	an extremely high level of confidence.

	21:23.480 --> 21:26.360
	One, that we're going to protect life.

	21:26.360 --> 21:30.640
	Two, that we're going to, that these systems will behave

	21:30.640 --> 21:33.840
	in ways that their operators can understand.

	21:33.840 --> 21:36.360
	And so this gets into that whole field.

	21:36.360 --> 21:41.320
	Again, being able to verify and validate

	21:41.320 --> 21:44.920
	that the systems have been, that they will operate

	21:44.920 --> 21:48.040
	the way they're designed and the way they're expected.

	21:48.040 --> 21:50.720
	And furthermore, that they will do that

	21:50.720 --> 21:55.400
	in ways that can be explained and understood.

	21:55.400 --> 21:58.800
	And that is an extremely difficult challenge.

	21:58.800 --> 22:00.760
	Yeah, so here's a difficult question.

	22:00.760 --> 22:04.360
	I don't mean to bring this up,

	22:04.360 --> 22:05.560
	but I think it's a good case study

	22:05.560 --> 22:07.840
	that people are familiar with.

	22:07.840 --> 22:11.080
	Boeing 737 MAX commercial airplane

	22:11.080 --> 22:13.360
	has had two recent crashes

	22:13.360 --> 22:15.920
	where their flight control software system failed.

	22:15.920 --> 22:19.080
	And it's software, so I don't mean to speak about Boeing,

	22:19.080 --> 22:21.040
	but broadly speaking, we have this

	22:21.040 --> 22:24.040
	in the autonomous vehicle space too, semi autonomous.

	22:24.040 --> 22:27.840
	When you have millions of lines of code software

	22:27.840 --> 22:32.080
	making decisions, there is a little bit of a clash

	22:32.080 --> 22:35.320
	of cultures because software engineers

	22:35.320 --> 22:38.400
	don't have the same culture of safety often.

	22:39.440 --> 22:43.120
	That people who build systems like at Lockheed Martin

	22:43.120 --> 22:46.480
	do where it has to be exceptionally safe,

	22:46.480 --> 22:48.080
	you have to test this on.

	22:48.080 --> 22:49.880
	So how do we get this right

	22:49.880 --> 22:53.200
	when software is making so many decisions?

	22:53.200 --> 22:57.160
	Yeah, and there's a lot of things that have to happen.

	22:57.160 --> 23:01.280
	And by and large, I think it starts with the culture,

	23:01.280 --> 23:03.320
	which is not necessarily something

	23:03.320 --> 23:05.960
	that A is taught in school,

	23:05.960 --> 23:07.960
	or B is something that would come,

	23:07.960 --> 23:10.840
	depending on what kind of software you're developing,

	23:10.840 --> 23:14.240
	it may not be relevant if you're targeting ads

	23:14.240 --> 23:15.760
	or something like that.

	23:15.760 --> 23:20.600
	So, and by and large, I'd say not just Lockheed Martin,

	23:20.600 --> 23:23.720
	but certainly the aerospace industry as a whole

	23:23.720 --> 23:27.240
	has developed a culture that does focus on safety,

	23:27.240 --> 23:31.000
	safety of life, operational safety, mission success.

	23:32.200 --> 23:34.040
	But as you know, these systems

	23:34.040 --> 23:36.120
	have gotten incredibly complex.

	23:36.120 --> 23:40.720
	And so they're to the point where it's almost impossible,

	23:40.720 --> 23:44.840
	state spaces become so huge that it's impossible to,

	23:44.840 --> 23:48.880
	or very difficult to do a systematic verification

	23:48.880 --> 23:52.280
	across the entire set of potential ways

	23:52.280 --> 23:53.760
	that an aircraft could be flown,

	23:53.760 --> 23:55.560
	all the conditions that could happen,

	23:55.560 --> 23:59.320
	all the potential failure scenarios.

	23:59.320 --> 24:01.120
	Now, maybe that's soluble one day,

	24:01.120 --> 24:03.360
	maybe when we have our quantum computers

	24:03.360 --> 24:07.520
	that our fingertips will be able to actually simulate

	24:07.520 --> 24:11.280
	across an entire almost infinite state space.

	24:11.280 --> 24:16.280
	But today, there's a lot of work

	24:16.280 --> 24:20.960
	to really try to bound the system,

	24:20.960 --> 24:24.760
	to make sure that it behaves in predictable ways,

	24:24.760 --> 24:29.080
	and then have this culture of continuous inquiry

	24:29.080 --> 24:33.160
	and skepticism and questioning to say,

	24:33.160 --> 24:37.320
	did we really consider the right realm of possibilities,

	24:37.320 --> 24:40.160
	have we done the right range of testing?

	24:40.160 --> 24:42.400
	Do we really understand, in this case,

	24:42.400 --> 24:44.640
	human and machine interactions,

	24:44.640 --> 24:46.160
	the human decision process

	24:46.160 --> 24:49.480
	alongside the machine processes?

	24:49.480 --> 24:51.520
	And so that's that culture,

	24:51.520 --> 24:53.520
	we call it the culture of mission success

	24:53.520 --> 24:54.960
	at Lockheed Martin,

	24:54.960 --> 24:56.720
	that really needs to be established.

	24:56.720 --> 24:58.120
	And it's not something,

	24:58.120 --> 25:02.160
	it's something that people learn by living in it.

	25:02.160 --> 25:05.240
	And it's something that has to be promulgated,

	25:05.240 --> 25:07.120
	and it's done from the highest level.

	25:07.120 --> 25:10.160
	So I had a company of Lockheed Martin, like Lockheed Martin.

	25:10.160 --> 25:12.480
	Yeah, and the same as being faced

	25:12.480 --> 25:14.000
	at certain autonomous vehicle companies

	25:14.000 --> 25:15.760
	where that culture is not there

	25:15.760 --> 25:18.600
	because it started mostly by software engineers,

	25:18.600 --> 25:20.400
	so that's what they're struggling with.

	25:21.440 --> 25:25.720
	Is there lessons that you think we should learn

	25:25.720 --> 25:27.280
	as an industry and a society

	25:27.280 --> 25:30.240
	from the Boeing 737 MAX crashes?

	25:30.240 --> 25:34.720
	These crashes, obviously, are either tremendous tragedies,

	25:34.720 --> 25:37.800
	they're tragedies for all of the people,

	25:37.800 --> 25:41.240
	the crew, the families, the passengers,

	25:41.240 --> 25:43.160
	the people on the ground involved.

	25:44.280 --> 25:49.080
	And it's also a huge business and economic setback as well.

	25:49.080 --> 25:51.720
	I mean, we've seen that it's impacting, essentially,

	25:51.720 --> 25:53.840
	the trade balance of the US.

	25:53.840 --> 25:58.360
	So these are important questions.

	25:58.360 --> 26:00.200
	And these are the kinds of,

	26:00.200 --> 26:03.040
	we've seen similar kinds of questioning at times.

	26:03.040 --> 26:06.000
	We go back to the Challenger accident.

	26:06.960 --> 26:10.640
	And it is, I think, always important to remind ourselves

	26:10.640 --> 26:11.960
	that humans are fallible,

	26:11.960 --> 26:14.040
	that the systems we create,

	26:14.040 --> 26:16.560
	as perfect as we strive to make them,

	26:16.560 --> 26:18.960
	we can always make them better.

	26:18.960 --> 26:21.760
	And so another element of that culture of mission success

	26:21.760 --> 26:24.960
	is really that commitment to continuous improvement.

	26:24.960 --> 26:27.480
	If there's something that goes wrong,

	26:27.480 --> 26:31.160
	a real commitment to root cause

	26:31.160 --> 26:33.320
	and true root cause understanding,

	26:33.320 --> 26:35.080
	to taking the corrective actions

	26:35.080 --> 26:38.880
	and to making the future systems better.

	26:38.880 --> 26:43.880
	And certainly, we strive for no accidents.

	26:45.160 --> 26:47.760
	And if you look at the record

	26:47.760 --> 26:50.440
	of the commercial airline industry as a whole

	26:50.440 --> 26:53.360
	and the commercial aircraft industry as a whole,

	26:53.360 --> 26:57.640
	there's a very nice decaying exponential

	26:57.640 --> 27:01.680
	to years now where we have no commercial aircraft accidents

	27:01.680 --> 27:04.760
	at all, our fatal accidents at all.

	27:04.760 --> 27:08.360
	So that didn't happen by accident.

	27:08.360 --> 27:11.640
	It was through the regulatory agencies, FAA,

	27:11.640 --> 27:14.400
	the airframe manufacturers,

	27:14.400 --> 27:18.680
	really working on a system to identify root causes

	27:18.680 --> 27:20.520
	and drive them out.

	27:20.520 --> 27:23.880
	So maybe we can take a step back

	27:23.880 --> 27:25.520
	and many people are familiar,

	27:25.520 --> 27:28.840
	but Lockheed Martin broadly,

	27:28.840 --> 27:31.240
	what kind of categories of systems

	27:32.120 --> 27:34.280
	are you involved in building?

	27:34.280 --> 27:36.240
	You know, Lockheed Martin, we think of ourselves

	27:36.240 --> 27:39.880
	as a company that solves hard mission problems.

	27:39.880 --> 27:42.080
	And the output of that might be an airplane

	27:42.080 --> 27:44.640
	or a spacecraft or a helicopter or radar

	27:44.640 --> 27:45.680
	or something like that.

	27:45.680 --> 27:47.920
	But ultimately we're driven by these,

	27:47.920 --> 27:50.240
	you know, like what is our customer?

	27:50.240 --> 27:52.680
	What is that mission that they need to achieve?

	27:52.680 --> 27:55.480
	And so that's what drove the SR 71, right?

	27:55.480 --> 27:57.840
	How do you get pictures of a place

	27:59.000 --> 28:02.160
	where you've got sophisticated air defense systems

	28:02.160 --> 28:05.440
	that are capable of handling any aircraft

	28:05.440 --> 28:07.440
	that was out there at the time, right?

	28:07.440 --> 28:10.440
	So that, you know, that's what you'll do to an SR 71.

	28:10.440 --> 28:12.480
	Build a nice flying camera.

	28:12.480 --> 28:16.040
	Exactly, and make sure it gets out and it gets back, right?

	28:16.040 --> 28:18.280
	And that led ultimately to really the start

	28:18.280 --> 28:20.440
	of the space program in the US as well.

	28:22.200 --> 28:24.920
	So now take a step back to Lockheed Martin of today.

	28:24.920 --> 28:29.040
	And we are, you know, on the order of 105 years old now,

	28:29.040 --> 28:32.400
	between Lockheed and Martin, the two big heritage companies.

	28:32.400 --> 28:34.600
	Of course, we're made up of a whole bunch of other companies

	28:34.600 --> 28:36.120
	that came in as well.

	28:36.120 --> 28:39.800
	General Dynamics, you know, kind of go down the list.

	28:39.800 --> 28:42.600
	Today we're, you can think of us

	28:42.600 --> 28:44.840
	in this space of solving mission problems.

	28:44.840 --> 28:48.440
	So obviously on the aircraft side,

	28:48.440 --> 28:53.000
	tactical aircraft, building the most advanced fighter aircraft

	28:53.000 --> 28:55.120
	that the world has ever seen, you know,

	28:55.120 --> 28:57.880
	we're up to now several hundred of those delivered,

	28:57.880 --> 29:00.080
	building almost a hundred a year.

	29:00.080 --> 29:04.120
	And of course, working on the things that come after that.

	29:04.120 --> 29:07.720
	On the space side, we are engaged in pretty much

	29:07.720 --> 29:12.720
	every venue of space utilization and exploration

	29:13.160 --> 29:14.280
	you can imagine.

	29:14.280 --> 29:18.040
	So I mentioned things like navigation timing, GPS,

	29:18.040 --> 29:22.400
	communication satellites, missile warning satellites.

	29:22.400 --> 29:24.760
	We've built commercial surveillance satellites.

	29:24.760 --> 29:27.640
	We've built commercial communication satellites.

	29:27.640 --> 29:29.200
	We do civil space.

	29:29.200 --> 29:32.320
	So everything from human exploration

	29:32.320 --> 29:35.000
	to the robotic exploration of the outer planets.

	29:36.000 --> 29:39.080
	And keep going on the space front.

	29:39.080 --> 29:40.640
	But I don't, you know, a couple of other areas

	29:40.640 --> 29:44.520
	I'd like to put out, we're heavily engaged

	29:44.520 --> 29:47.360
	in building critical defensive systems.

	29:47.360 --> 29:51.640
	And so a couple that I'll mention, the Aegis Combat System,

	29:51.640 --> 29:55.680
	this is basically the integrated air and missile defense system

	29:55.680 --> 29:58.640
	for the US and allied fleets.

	29:58.640 --> 30:02.840
	And so protects, you know, carrier strike groups,

	30:02.840 --> 30:06.560
	for example, from incoming ballistic missile threats,

	30:06.560 --> 30:08.480
	aircraft threats, cruise missile threats,

	30:08.480 --> 30:10.080
	and kind of go down the list.

	30:10.080 --> 30:13.240
	So the carriers, the fleet itself

	30:13.240 --> 30:15.280
	is the thing that is being protected.

	30:15.280 --> 30:18.120
	The carriers aren't serving as a protection

	30:18.120 --> 30:19.360
	for something else.

	30:19.360 --> 30:21.840
	Well, that's a little bit of a different application.

	30:21.840 --> 30:24.360
	We've actually built the version called Aegis Assure,

	30:24.360 --> 30:27.960
	which is now deployed in a couple of places around the world.

	30:27.960 --> 30:31.000
	So that same technology, I mean, basically,

	30:31.000 --> 30:35.360
	can be used to protect either an ocean going fleet

	30:35.360 --> 30:37.840
	or a land based activity.

	30:37.840 --> 30:39.680
	Another one, the THAAD program.

	30:41.040 --> 30:44.720
	So THAAD, this is the Theater High Altitude Area Defense.

	30:44.720 --> 30:49.120
	This is to protect, you know, relatively broad areas

	30:49.120 --> 30:53.400
	against sophisticated ballistic missile threats.

	30:53.400 --> 30:57.760
	And so now, you know, it's deployed

	30:57.760 --> 30:59.880
	with a lot of US capabilities.

	30:59.880 --> 31:01.960
	And now we have international customers

	31:01.960 --> 31:04.520
	that are looking to buy that capability as well.

	31:04.520 --> 31:07.000
	And so these are systems that defend,

	31:07.000 --> 31:10.080
	not just defend militaries and military capabilities,

	31:10.080 --> 31:12.400
	but defend population areas.

	31:12.400 --> 31:16.320
	And we saw, you know, maybe the first public use of these

	31:16.320 --> 31:20.200
	back in the first Gulf War with the Patriot systems.

	31:21.200 --> 31:23.120
	And these are the kinds of things

	31:23.120 --> 31:25.960
	that Lockheed Martin delivers.

	31:25.960 --> 31:27.960
	And there's a lot of stuff that goes with it.

	31:27.960 --> 31:31.520
	So think about the radar systems and the sensing systems

	31:31.520 --> 31:35.200
	that cue these, the command and control systems

	31:35.200 --> 31:39.560
	that decide how you pair a weapon against an incoming threat.

	31:39.560 --> 31:42.600
	And then all the human and machine interfaces

	31:42.600 --> 31:45.400
	to make sure that they can be operated successfully

	31:45.400 --> 31:48.040
	in very strenuous environments.

	31:48.040 --> 31:51.840
	Yeah, there's some incredible engineering

	31:51.840 --> 31:54.440
	that I'd ever find, like you said.

	31:54.440 --> 32:00.440
	So maybe if we just take a look at Lockheed history broadly,

	32:00.720 --> 32:02.960
	maybe even looking at Skunk Works.

	32:04.200 --> 32:07.240
	What are the biggest, most impressive,

	32:07.240 --> 32:11.160
	biggest, most impressive milestones of innovation?

	32:11.160 --> 32:13.560
	So if you look at stealth,

	32:13.560 --> 32:15.200
	I would have called you crazy if you said

	32:15.200 --> 32:16.760
	that's possible at the time.

	32:17.880 --> 32:21.280
	And supersonic and hypersonic.

	32:21.280 --> 32:24.000
	So traveling at, first of all,

	32:24.000 --> 32:27.280
	traveling at the speed of sound is pretty damn fast.

	32:27.280 --> 32:29.680
	And supersonic and hypersonic,

	32:29.680 --> 32:32.160
	three, four, five times the speed of sound,

	32:32.160 --> 32:34.360
	that seems, I would also call you crazy

	32:34.360 --> 32:35.760
	if you say you can do that.

	32:35.760 --> 32:38.080
	So can you tell me how it's possible

	32:38.080 --> 32:39.560
	to do these kinds of things?

	32:39.560 --> 32:41.080
	And is there other milestones

	32:41.080 --> 32:45.040
	and innovation that's going on that you can talk about?

	32:45.040 --> 32:49.000
	Yeah, well, let me start on the Skunk Works saga.

	32:49.000 --> 32:51.520
	And you kind of alluded to it in the beginning.

	32:51.520 --> 32:54.920
	I mean, Skunk Works is as much an idea as a place.

	32:54.920 --> 32:59.520
	And so it's driven really by Kelly Johnson's 14 principles.

	32:59.520 --> 33:02.000
	And I'm not gonna list all 14 of them off,

	33:02.000 --> 33:04.480
	but the idea, and this I'm sure will resonate

	33:04.480 --> 33:06.240
	with any engineer who's worked

	33:06.240 --> 33:09.440
	on a highly motivated small team before.

	33:09.440 --> 33:13.400
	The idea that if you can essentially have a small team

	33:13.400 --> 33:17.280
	of very capable people who wanna work

	33:17.280 --> 33:20.520
	on really hard problems, you can do almost anything.

	33:20.520 --> 33:23.280
	Especially if you kind of shield them

	33:23.280 --> 33:26.680
	from bureaucratic influences,

	33:26.680 --> 33:30.680
	if you create very tight relationships with your customer

	33:30.680 --> 33:34.360
	so that you have that team and shared vision

	33:34.360 --> 33:38.280
	with the customer, those are the kinds of things

	33:38.280 --> 33:43.040
	that enable the Skunk Works to do these incredible things.

	33:43.040 --> 33:46.360
	And we listed off a number that you brought up stealth.

	33:46.360 --> 33:50.520
	And I mean, this whole, I wish I could have seen Ben Rich

	33:50.520 --> 33:53.880
	with a ball bearing rolling across the desk

	33:53.880 --> 33:55.880
	to a general officer and saying,

	33:55.880 --> 33:58.400
	would you like to have an aircraft

	33:58.400 --> 34:01.800
	that has the radar cross section of this ball bearing?

	34:01.800 --> 34:04.280
	Probably one of the least expensive

	34:04.280 --> 34:06.320
	and most effective marketing campaigns

	34:06.320 --> 34:08.440
	in the history of the industry.

	34:08.440 --> 34:10.680
	So just for people not familiar,

	34:10.680 --> 34:12.800
	I mean, the way you detect aircraft,

	34:12.800 --> 34:14.680
	so I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of ways,

	34:14.680 --> 34:17.360
	but radar for the longest time,

	34:17.360 --> 34:20.680
	there's a big blob that appears in the radar.

	34:20.680 --> 34:22.360
	How do you make a plane disappear

	34:22.360 --> 34:26.200
	so it looks as big as a ball bearing?

	34:26.200 --> 34:28.040
	What's involved in technology wise there?

	34:28.040 --> 34:32.480
	What's broadly sort of the stuff you can speak about?

	34:32.480 --> 34:34.680
	I'll stick to what's in Ben Rich's book,

	34:34.680 --> 34:39.000
	but obviously the geometry of how radar gets reflected

	34:39.000 --> 34:42.400
	and the kinds of materials that either reflect or absorb

	34:42.400 --> 34:46.480
	are kind of the couple of the critical elements there.

	34:46.480 --> 34:48.080
	I mean, it's a cat and mouse game, right?

	34:48.080 --> 34:52.960
	I mean, radars get better, stealth capabilities get better.

	34:52.960 --> 34:57.680
	And so it's a really game of continuous improvement

	34:57.680 --> 34:58.520
	and innovation there.

	34:58.520 --> 35:00.160
	I'll leave it at that.

	35:00.160 --> 35:04.720
	Yeah, so the idea that something is essentially invisible

	35:04.720 --> 35:06.440
	is quite fascinating.

	35:06.440 --> 35:08.920
	But the other one is flying fast.

	35:08.920 --> 35:13.240
	So speed of sound is 750, 60 miles an hour.

	35:15.360 --> 35:18.480
	So supersonic is three, Mach three,

	35:18.480 --> 35:19.320
	something like that.

	35:19.320 --> 35:21.640
	Yeah, we talk about the supersonic obviously

	35:21.640 --> 35:24.120
	and we kind of talk about that as that realm

	35:24.120 --> 35:26.720
	from Mach one up through about Mach five.

	35:26.720 --> 35:31.720
	And then hypersonic, so high supersonic speeds

	35:32.040 --> 35:34.800
	would be past Mach five.

	35:34.800 --> 35:37.160
	And you got to remember Lockheed, Martin,

	35:37.160 --> 35:39.080
	and actually other companies have been involved

	35:39.080 --> 35:42.240
	in hypersonic development since the late 60s.

	35:42.240 --> 35:45.360
	You think of everything from the X 15

	35:45.360 --> 35:48.040
	to the space shuttle as examples of that.

	35:50.080 --> 35:54.360
	I think the difference now is if you look around the world,

	35:54.360 --> 35:57.360
	particularly the threat environment that we're in today,

	35:57.360 --> 36:02.360
	you're starting to see publicly folks like the Russians

	36:02.520 --> 36:07.520
	and the Chinese saying they have hypersonic weapons

	36:07.560 --> 36:12.560
	capability that could threaten US and allied capabilities.

	36:14.280 --> 36:18.840
	And also basically the claims are these could get around

	36:18.840 --> 36:21.840
	defensive systems that are out there today.

	36:21.840 --> 36:24.520
	And so there's a real sense of urgency.

	36:24.520 --> 36:28.160
	You hear it from folks like the undersecretary of defense

	36:28.160 --> 36:30.800
	for research and engineering, Dr. Mike Griffin

	36:30.800 --> 36:32.800
	and others in the Department of Defense

	36:32.800 --> 36:37.200
	that hypersonics is something that's really important

	36:37.200 --> 36:41.040
	to the nation in terms of both parity

	36:41.040 --> 36:43.120
	but also defensive capabilities.

	36:43.120 --> 36:46.200
	And so that's something that we're pleased.

	36:46.200 --> 36:49.240
	It's something Lockheed, Martin's had a heritage in.

	36:49.240 --> 36:53.800
	We've invested R&D dollars on our side for many years.

	36:53.800 --> 36:56.240
	And we have a number of things going on

	36:56.240 --> 36:59.760
	with various US government customers in that field today

	36:59.760 --> 37:01.520
	that we're very excited about.

	37:01.520 --> 37:04.520
	So I would anticipate we'll be hearing more about that

	37:04.520 --> 37:06.240
	in the future from our customers.

	37:06.240 --> 37:08.880
	And I've actually haven't read much about this.

	37:08.880 --> 37:10.840
	Probably you can't talk about much of it at all,

	37:10.840 --> 37:12.760
	but on the defensive side,

	37:12.760 --> 37:15.600
	it's a fascinating problem of perception

	37:15.600 --> 37:18.360
	of trying to detect things that are really hard to see.

	37:18.360 --> 37:21.560
	Can you comment on how hard that problem is

	37:21.560 --> 37:26.560
	and how hard is it to stay ahead,

	37:26.680 --> 37:29.200
	even if we're going back a few decades,

	37:29.200 --> 37:30.480
	stay ahead of the competition?

	37:30.480 --> 37:33.680
	Well, maybe I, again, you gotta think of these

	37:33.680 --> 37:36.480
	as ongoing capability development.

	37:36.480 --> 37:40.720
	And so think back to the early phase of missile defense.

	37:40.720 --> 37:44.120
	So this would be in the 80s, the SDI program.

	37:44.120 --> 37:46.440
	And in that timeframe, we proved,

	37:46.440 --> 37:48.920
	and Lockheed Martin proved that you could hit a bullet

	37:48.920 --> 37:50.320
	with a bullet, essentially,

	37:50.320 --> 37:53.240
	and which is something that had never been done before

	37:53.240 --> 37:56.200
	to take out an incoming ballistic missile.

	37:56.200 --> 37:58.760
	And so that's led to these incredible

	37:58.760 --> 38:01.880
	hit to kill kinds of capabilities, PAC 3.

	38:03.160 --> 38:07.040
	That's the Patriot Advanced Capability Model 3

	38:07.040 --> 38:08.160
	that Lockheed Martin builds,

	38:08.160 --> 38:10.740
	the THAAD system that I talked about.

	38:12.120 --> 38:13.880
	So now hypersonics,

	38:13.880 --> 38:17.560
	you know, they're different from ballistic systems.

	38:17.560 --> 38:19.520
	And so we gotta take the next step

	38:19.520 --> 38:21.160
	in defensive capability.

	38:22.680 --> 38:25.520
	I can, I'll leave that there, but I can only imagine.

	38:26.520 --> 38:29.160
	Now, let me just comment, sort of as an engineer,

	38:29.160 --> 38:33.440
	it's sad to know that so much that Lockheed has done

	38:33.440 --> 38:37.640
	in the past is classified,

	38:37.640 --> 38:40.960
	or today, you know, and it's shrouded in secrecy.

	38:40.960 --> 38:44.720
	It has to be by the nature of the application.

	38:46.200 --> 38:49.200
	So like what I do, so what we do here at MIT,

	38:49.200 --> 38:53.920
	we'd like to inspire young engineers, young scientists,

	38:53.920 --> 38:56.480
	and yet in the Lockheed case,

	38:56.480 --> 38:59.720
	some of that engineer has to stay quiet.

	38:59.720 --> 39:00.920
	How do you think about that?

	39:00.920 --> 39:02.120
	How does that make you feel?

	39:02.120 --> 39:07.120
	Is there a future where more can be shown,

	39:07.120 --> 39:10.600
	or is it just the nature, the nature of this world

	39:10.600 --> 39:12.760
	that it has to remain secret?

	39:12.760 --> 39:14.920
	It's a good question.

	39:14.920 --> 39:19.920
	I think the public can see enough of,

	39:21.160 --> 39:24.960
	including students who may be in grade school,

	39:24.960 --> 39:27.160
	high school, college today,

	39:28.160 --> 39:31.760
	to understand the kinds of really hard problems

	39:31.760 --> 39:33.360
	that we work on.

	39:33.360 --> 39:36.160
	And I mean, look at the F35, right?

	39:36.160 --> 39:40.640
	And obviously a lot of the detailed performance levels

	39:40.640 --> 39:43.160
	are sensitive and controlled.

	39:43.160 --> 39:48.160
	But we can talk about what an incredible aircraft this is.

	39:48.160 --> 39:50.480
	It's a supersonic, super cruise kind of a fighter,

	39:50.480 --> 39:54.560
	a stealth capabilities.

	39:54.560 --> 39:57.920
	It's a flying information system in the sky

	39:57.920 --> 40:01.480
	with data fusion, sensor fusion capabilities

	40:01.480 --> 40:03.200
	that have never been seen before.

	40:03.200 --> 40:05.280
	So these are the kinds of things that I believe,

	40:05.280 --> 40:08.000
	these are the kinds of things that got me excited

	40:08.000 --> 40:08.960
	when I was a student.

	40:08.960 --> 40:12.240
	I think these still inspire students today.

	40:12.240 --> 40:17.040
	And the other thing, I mean, people are inspired by space.

	40:17.040 --> 40:20.200
	People are inspired by aircraft.

	40:22.000 --> 40:25.360
	Our employees are also inspired by that sense of mission.

	40:25.360 --> 40:27.560
	And I'll just give you an example.

	40:27.560 --> 40:32.640
	I had the privilege to work and lead our GPS programs

	40:32.640 --> 40:34.400
	for some time.

	40:34.400 --> 40:37.800
	And that was a case where I actually

	40:37.800 --> 40:41.040
	worked on a program that touches billions of people

	40:41.040 --> 40:41.680
	every day.

	40:41.680 --> 40:43.480
	And so when I said I worked on GPS,

	40:43.480 --> 40:45.240
	everybody knew what I was talking about,

	40:45.240 --> 40:47.800
	even though they didn't maybe appreciate the technical

	40:47.800 --> 40:51.320
	challenges that went into that.

	40:51.320 --> 40:54.960
	But I'll tell you, I got a briefing one time

	40:54.960 --> 40:57.400
	from a major in the Air Force.

	40:57.400 --> 41:01.640
	And he said, I go by call sign GIMP.

	41:01.640 --> 41:04.320
	GPS is my passion.

	41:04.320 --> 41:05.720
	I love GPS.

	41:05.720 --> 41:08.960
	And he was involved in the operational test of the system.

	41:08.960 --> 41:11.680
	He said, I was out in Iraq.

	41:11.680 --> 41:17.280
	And I was on a helicopter, Black Hawk helicopter.

	41:17.280 --> 41:21.440
	And I was bringing back a sergeant and a handful of troops

	41:21.440 --> 41:23.800
	from a deployed location.

	41:23.800 --> 41:26.600
	And he said, my job is GPS.

	41:26.600 --> 41:27.800
	So I asked that sergeant.

	41:27.800 --> 41:31.360
	And he's beaten down and half asleep.

	41:31.360 --> 41:34.080
	And I said, what do you think about GPS?

	41:34.080 --> 41:35.120
	And he brightened up.

	41:35.120 --> 41:35.920
	His eyes lit up.

	41:35.920 --> 41:39.240
	And he said, well, GPS, that brings me and my troops home

	41:39.240 --> 41:39.960
	every day.

	41:39.960 --> 41:41.080
	I love GPS.

	41:41.080 --> 41:43.760
	And that's the kind of story where it's like, OK,

	41:43.760 --> 41:46.440
	I'm really making a difference here in the kind of work.

	41:46.440 --> 41:48.920
	So that mission piece is really important.

	41:48.920 --> 41:51.720
	The last thing I'll say is, and this

	41:51.720 --> 41:54.840
	gets to some of these questions around advanced

	41:54.840 --> 41:59.560
	technologies, they're not just airplanes and spacecraft

	41:59.560 --> 41:59.960
	anymore.

	41:59.960 --> 42:02.760
	For people who are excited about advanced software

	42:02.760 --> 42:06.040
	capabilities, about AI, about bringing machine learning,

	42:06.040 --> 42:10.120
	these are the things that we're doing to exponentially

	42:10.120 --> 42:13.120
	increase the mission capabilities that

	42:13.120 --> 42:14.280
	go on those platforms.

	42:14.280 --> 42:15.920
	And those are the kinds of things I think

	42:15.920 --> 42:18.400
	are more and more visible to the public.

	42:18.400 --> 42:21.440
	Yeah, I think autonomy, especially in flight,

	42:21.440 --> 42:23.880
	is super exciting.

	42:23.880 --> 42:28.040
	Do you see a day, here we go, back into philosophy,

	42:28.040 --> 42:35.120
	a future when most fighter jets will be highly autonomous

	42:35.120 --> 42:37.720
	to a degree where a human doesn't need

	42:37.720 --> 42:40.640
	to be in the cockpit in almost all cases?

	42:40.640 --> 42:43.520
	Well, I mean, that's a world that to a certain extent,

	42:43.520 --> 42:44.240
	we're in today.

	42:44.240 --> 42:47.800
	Now, these are remotely piloted aircraft, to be sure.

	42:47.800 --> 42:53.920
	But we have hundreds of thousands of flight hours a year now

	42:53.920 --> 42:56.240
	in remotely piloted aircraft.

	42:56.240 --> 43:00.720
	And then if you take the F 35, I mean,

	43:00.720 --> 43:04.640
	there are huge layers, I guess, in levels of autonomy

	43:04.640 --> 43:10.040
	built into that aircraft so that the pilot is essentially

	43:10.040 --> 43:13.280
	more of a mission manager rather than doing

	43:13.280 --> 43:16.560
	the data, the second to second elements of flying

	43:16.560 --> 43:17.160
	the aircraft.

	43:17.160 --> 43:19.920
	So in some ways, it's the easiest aircraft in the world

	43:19.920 --> 43:20.840
	to fly.

	43:20.840 --> 43:22.480
	I'm kind of a funny story on that.

	43:22.480 --> 43:27.280
	So I don't know if you know how aircraft carrier landings work.

	43:27.280 --> 43:30.760
	But basically, there's what's called a tail hook,

	43:30.760 --> 43:33.760
	and it catches wires on the deck of the carrier.

	43:33.760 --> 43:39.360
	And that's what brings the aircraft to a screeching halt.

	43:39.360 --> 43:41.800
	And there's typically three of these wires.

	43:41.800 --> 43:43.480
	So if you miss the first, the second one,

	43:43.480 --> 43:45.920
	you catch the next one, right?

	43:45.920 --> 43:49.280
	And we got a little criticism.

	43:49.280 --> 43:50.880
	I don't know how true this story is,

	43:50.880 --> 43:52.360
	but we got a little criticism.

	43:52.360 --> 43:56.200
	The F 35 is so perfect, it always gets the second wires.

	43:56.200 --> 44:00.880
	We're wearing out the wire because it always hits that one.

	44:00.880 --> 44:04.600
	But that's the kind of autonomy that just makes these,

	44:04.600 --> 44:06.880
	essentially up levels what the human is doing

	44:06.880 --> 44:08.520
	to more of that mission manager.

	44:08.520 --> 44:12.040
	So much of that landing by the F 35 is autonomous.

	44:12.040 --> 44:14.000
	Well, it's just the control systems

	44:14.000 --> 44:17.960
	are such that you really have dialed out the variability

	44:17.960 --> 44:19.720
	that comes with all the environmental conditions.

	44:19.720 --> 44:20.800
	You're wearing it out.

	44:20.800 --> 44:24.320
	So my point is, to a certain extent,

	44:24.320 --> 44:27.320
	that world is here today.

	44:27.320 --> 44:30.000
	Do I think that we're going to see a day anytime soon

	44:30.000 --> 44:31.840
	when there are no humans in the cockpit?

	44:31.840 --> 44:33.320
	I don't believe that.

	44:33.320 --> 44:36.680
	But I do think we're going to see much more human machine

	44:36.680 --> 44:38.760
	teaming, and we're going to see that much more

	44:38.760 --> 44:40.480
	at the tactical edge.

	44:40.480 --> 44:41.480
	And we did a demo.

	44:41.480 --> 44:43.760
	You asked about what the Skunkworks is doing these days.

	44:43.760 --> 44:46.200
	And so this is something I can talk about.

	44:46.200 --> 44:51.200
	But we did a demo with the Air Force Research Laboratory.

	44:51.200 --> 44:52.600
	We called it HAV Raider.

	44:52.600 --> 44:59.760
	And so using an F 16 as an autonomous wingman,

	44:59.760 --> 45:02.480
	and we demonstrated all kinds of maneuvers

	45:02.480 --> 45:06.280
	and various mission scenarios with the autonomous F 16

	45:06.280 --> 45:09.640
	being that so called loyal or trusted wingman.

	45:09.640 --> 45:11.320
	And so those are the kinds of things

	45:11.320 --> 45:15.400
	that we've shown what is possible now,

	45:15.400 --> 45:18.960
	given that you've upleveled that pilot to be a mission manager.

	45:18.960 --> 45:22.280
	Now they can control multiple other aircraft,

	45:22.280 --> 45:25.000
	they can almost as extensions of your own aircraft

	45:25.000 --> 45:27.160
	flying alongside with you.

	45:27.160 --> 45:30.240
	So that's another example of how this is really

	45:30.240 --> 45:31.560
	coming to fruition.

	45:31.560 --> 45:35.120
	And then I mentioned the landings,

	45:35.120 --> 45:38.080
	but think about just the implications

	45:38.080 --> 45:39.800
	for humans and flight safety.

	45:39.800 --> 45:41.800
	And this goes a little bit back to the discussion

	45:41.800 --> 45:45.720
	we were having about how do you continuously improve

	45:45.720 --> 45:48.920
	the level of safety through automation

	45:48.920 --> 45:52.120
	while working through the complexities that automation

	45:52.120 --> 45:53.320
	introduces.

	45:53.320 --> 45:55.520
	So one of the challenges that you have in high performance

	45:55.520 --> 45:57.480
	fighter aircraft is what's called Glock.

	45:57.480 --> 45:59.960
	So this is G induced loss of consciousness.

	45:59.960 --> 46:02.800
	So you pull 9Gs, you're wearing a pressure suit,

	46:02.800 --> 46:05.760
	that's not enough to keep the blood going to your brain,

	46:05.760 --> 46:07.760
	you black out.

	46:07.760 --> 46:12.320
	And of course, that's bad if you happen to be flying low,

	46:12.320 --> 46:17.520
	near the deck, and in an obstacle or terrain environment.

	46:17.520 --> 46:22.400
	And so we developed a system in our aeronautics division

	46:22.400 --> 46:26.040
	called Auto GCAS, so Autonomous Ground Collision Avoidance

	46:26.040 --> 46:27.400
	System.

	46:27.400 --> 46:30.080
	And we built that into the F16.

	46:30.080 --> 46:33.000
	It's actually saved seven aircraft, eight pilots already.

	46:33.000 --> 46:35.840
	And the relatively short time it's been deployed,

	46:35.840 --> 46:39.320
	it was so successful that the Air Force said,

	46:39.320 --> 46:41.480
	hey, we need to have this in the F35 right away.

	46:41.480 --> 46:46.400
	So we've actually done testing of that now in the F35.

	46:46.400 --> 46:50.200
	And we've also integrated an autonomous air collision

	46:50.200 --> 46:51.000
	avoidance system.

	46:51.000 --> 46:53.000
	So I think the air to air problem.

	46:53.000 --> 46:56.000
	So now it's the integrated collision avoidance system.

	46:56.000 --> 46:58.760
	But these are the kinds of capabilities.

	46:58.760 --> 46:59.920
	I wouldn't call them AI.

	46:59.920 --> 47:04.040
	I mean, they're very sophisticated models

	47:04.040 --> 47:08.080
	of the aircraft's dynamics coupled with the terrain models

	47:08.080 --> 47:12.240
	to be able to predict when essentially the pilot is

	47:12.240 --> 47:14.840
	doing something that is going to take the aircraft into,

	47:14.840 --> 47:18.120
	or the pilot's not doing something in this case.

	47:18.120 --> 47:23.280
	But it just gives you an example of how autonomy can be really

	47:23.280 --> 47:25.960
	a lifesaver in today's world.

	47:25.960 --> 47:29.160
	It's like an autonomous automated emergency

	47:29.160 --> 47:30.520
	braking in cars.

	47:30.520 --> 47:35.080
	But is there any exploration of perception of, for example,

	47:35.080 --> 47:39.640
	detecting a Glock that the pilot is out,

	47:39.640 --> 47:42.960
	so as opposed to perceiving the external environment

	47:42.960 --> 47:46.000
	to infer that the pilot is out, but actually perceiving

	47:46.000 --> 47:47.320
	the pilot directly?

	47:47.320 --> 47:48.880
	Yeah, this is one of those cases where

	47:48.880 --> 47:52.040
	you'd like to not take action if you think the pilot's there.

	47:52.040 --> 47:54.160
	And it's almost like systems that try

	47:54.160 --> 47:56.880
	to detect if a driver is falling asleep on the road,

	47:56.880 --> 48:00.000
	right, with limited success.

	48:00.000 --> 48:03.400
	So I mean, this is what I call the system of last resort,

	48:03.400 --> 48:06.880
	right, where if the aircraft has determined

	48:06.880 --> 48:10.880
	that it's going into the terrain, get it out of there.

	48:10.880 --> 48:12.960
	And this is not something that we're just

	48:12.960 --> 48:15.680
	doing in the aircraft world.

	48:15.680 --> 48:18.600
	And I wanted to highlight, we have a technology we call Matrix,

	48:18.600 --> 48:21.960
	but this is developed at Sikorsky Innovations.

	48:21.960 --> 48:26.080
	The whole idea there is what we call optimal piloting,

	48:26.080 --> 48:30.560
	so not optional piloting or unpiloted,

	48:30.560 --> 48:32.240
	but optimal piloting.

	48:32.240 --> 48:35.880
	So an FAA certified system, so you

	48:35.880 --> 48:37.400
	have a high degree of confidence.

	48:37.400 --> 48:40.560
	It's generally pretty deterministic,

	48:40.560 --> 48:43.880
	so we know that it'll do in different situations,

	48:43.880 --> 48:49.240
	but effectively be able to fly a mission with two pilots,

	48:49.240 --> 48:51.560
	one pilot, no pilots.

	48:51.560 --> 48:56.720
	And you can think of it almost as like a dial of the level

	48:56.720 --> 48:59.480
	of autonomy that you want, so it's

	48:59.480 --> 49:01.320
	running in the background at all times

	49:01.320 --> 49:04.040
	and able to pick up tasks, whether it's

	49:04.040 --> 49:10.160
	sort of autopilot kinds of tasks or more sophisticated path

	49:10.160 --> 49:12.040
	planning kinds of activities.

	49:12.040 --> 49:15.200
	To be able to do things like, for example, land on an oil

	49:15.200 --> 49:19.480
	rig in the North Sea in bad weather, zero, zero conditions.

	49:19.480 --> 49:20.880
	And you can imagine, of course, there's

	49:20.880 --> 49:24.560
	a lot of military utility to capability like that.

	49:24.560 --> 49:26.480
	You could have an aircraft that you

	49:26.480 --> 49:28.280
	want to send out for a crewed mission,

	49:28.280 --> 49:31.880
	but then at night, if you want to use it to deliver supplies

	49:31.880 --> 49:35.600
	in an unmanned mode, that could be done as well.

	49:35.600 --> 49:39.960
	And so there's clear advantages there.

	49:39.960 --> 49:41.840
	But think about on the commercial side,

	49:41.840 --> 49:44.560
	if you're an aircraft taken, you're

	49:44.560 --> 49:46.080
	going to fly out to this oil rig.

	49:46.080 --> 49:48.000
	If you get out there and you can't land,

	49:48.000 --> 49:51.200
	then you've got to bring all those people back, reschedule

	49:51.200 --> 49:53.080
	another flight, pay the overtime for the crew

	49:53.080 --> 49:55.280
	that you just brought back because they didn't get what

	49:55.280 --> 49:57.240
	they were going to pay for the overtime for the folks that

	49:57.240 --> 49:58.640
	are out there on the oil rig.

	49:58.640 --> 50:00.680
	This is real economic.

	50:00.680 --> 50:03.480
	These are dollars and cents kinds of advantages

	50:03.480 --> 50:06.000
	that we're bringing in the commercial world as well.

	50:06.000 --> 50:09.120
	So this is a difficult question from the AI space

	50:09.120 --> 50:11.600
	that I would love it if we were able to comment.

	50:11.600 --> 50:15.360
	So a lot of this autonomy in AI you've mentioned just now

	50:15.360 --> 50:17.040
	has this empowering effect.

	50:17.040 --> 50:20.400
	One is the last resort, it keeps you safe.

	50:20.400 --> 50:25.200
	The other is there's with the teaming and in general,

	50:25.200 --> 50:29.120
	assistive AI.

	50:29.120 --> 50:33.160
	And I think there's always a race.

	50:33.160 --> 50:36.960
	So the world is full of the world is complex.

	50:36.960 --> 50:41.160
	It's full of bad actors.

	50:41.160 --> 50:43.600
	So there's often a race to make sure

	50:43.600 --> 50:48.960
	that we keep this country safe.

	50:48.960 --> 50:52.120
	But with AI, there is a concern that it's

	50:52.120 --> 50:55.080
	a slightly different race.

	50:55.080 --> 50:56.760
	There's a lot of people in the AI space

	50:56.760 --> 50:59.600
	that are concerned about the AI arms race.

	50:59.600 --> 51:02.280
	That as opposed to the United States

	51:02.280 --> 51:05.400
	becoming having the best technology

	51:05.400 --> 51:09.160
	and therefore keeping us safe, even we lose ability

	51:09.160 --> 51:11.520
	to keep control of it.

	51:11.520 --> 51:16.800
	So the AI arms race getting away from all of us humans.

	51:16.800 --> 51:19.440
	So do you share this worry?

	51:19.440 --> 51:21.080
	Do you share this concern when we're

	51:21.080 --> 51:23.400
	talking about military applications

	51:23.400 --> 51:26.520
	that too much control and decision making

	51:26.520 --> 51:31.640
	capabilities giving to software or AI?

	51:31.640 --> 51:34.120
	Well, I don't see it happening today.

	51:34.120 --> 51:38.040
	And in fact, this is something from a policy perspective.

	51:38.040 --> 51:39.920
	It's obviously a very dynamic space.

	51:39.920 --> 51:42.800
	But the Department of Defense has put quite a bit of thought

	51:42.800 --> 51:44.280
	into that.

	51:44.280 --> 51:46.560
	And maybe before talking about the policy,

	51:46.560 --> 51:48.920
	I'll just talk about some of the why.

	51:48.920 --> 51:52.640
	And you alluded to it being sort of a complicated and a little

	51:52.640 --> 51:54.040
	bit scary world out there.

	51:54.040 --> 51:57.280
	But there's some big things happening today.

	51:57.280 --> 52:00.600
	You hear a lot of talk now about a return to great powers

	52:00.600 --> 52:05.400
	competition, particularly around China and Russia with the US.

	52:05.400 --> 52:09.400
	But there are some other big players out there as well.

	52:09.400 --> 52:13.400
	And what we've seen is the deployment

	52:13.400 --> 52:20.480
	of some very, I'd say, concerning new weapons systems,

	52:20.480 --> 52:24.520
	particularly with Russia and breaching some of the IRBM,

	52:24.520 --> 52:26.040
	intermediate range ballistic missile

	52:26.040 --> 52:29.480
	treaties that's been in the news a lot.

	52:29.480 --> 52:33.640
	The building of islands, artificial islands in the South

	52:33.640 --> 52:38.720
	China Sea by the Chinese, and then arming those islands.

	52:38.720 --> 52:42.880
	The annexation of Crimea by Russia,

	52:42.880 --> 52:44.800
	the invasion of Ukraine.

	52:44.800 --> 52:47.160
	So there's some pretty scary things.

	52:47.160 --> 52:51.640
	And then you add on top of that, the North Korean threat has

	52:51.640 --> 52:52.960
	certainly not gone away.

	52:52.960 --> 52:56.680
	There's a lot going on in the Middle East with Iran in particular.

	52:56.680 --> 53:02.360
	And we see this global terrorism threat has not abated, right?

	53:02.360 --> 53:06.080
	So there are a lot of reasons to look for technology

	53:06.080 --> 53:08.160
	to assist with those problems, whether it's

	53:08.160 --> 53:11.240
	AI or other technologies like hypersonage, which

	53:11.240 --> 53:13.000
	was which we discussed.

	53:13.000 --> 53:17.280
	So now, let me give just a couple of hypotheticals.

	53:17.280 --> 53:22.320
	So people react sort of in the second time frame, right?

	53:22.320 --> 53:27.760
	You're photon hitting your eye to a movement

	53:27.760 --> 53:30.600
	is on the order of a few tenths of a second

	53:30.600 --> 53:34.440
	kinds of processing times.

	53:34.440 --> 53:38.240
	Roughly speaking, computers are operating

	53:38.240 --> 53:41.560
	in the nanosecond time scale, right?

	53:41.560 --> 53:44.640
	So just to bring home what that means,

	53:44.640 --> 53:50.640
	a nanosecond to a second is like a second to 32 years.

	53:50.640 --> 53:53.920
	So seconds on the battlefield, in that sense,

	53:53.920 --> 53:56.600
	literally are lifetimes.

	53:56.600 --> 54:01.920
	And so if you can bring an autonomous or AI enabled

	54:01.920 --> 54:05.480
	capability that will enable the human to shrink,

	54:05.480 --> 54:07.480
	maybe you've heard the term the OODA loop.

	54:07.480 --> 54:12.120
	So this whole idea that a typical battlefield decision

	54:12.120 --> 54:15.800
	is characterized by observe.

	54:15.800 --> 54:19.040
	So information comes in, orient.

	54:19.040 --> 54:21.240
	What does that mean in the context?

	54:21.240 --> 54:23.040
	Decide, what do I do about it?

	54:23.040 --> 54:25.160
	And then act, take that action.

	54:25.160 --> 54:27.320
	If you can use these capabilities

	54:27.320 --> 54:30.400
	to compress that OODA loop to stay

	54:30.400 --> 54:32.200
	inside what your adversary is doing,

	54:32.200 --> 54:37.640
	that's an incredible, powerful force on the battlefield.

	54:37.640 --> 54:39.120
	That's a really nice way to put it,

	54:39.120 --> 54:41.680
	that the role of AI in computing in general

	54:41.680 --> 54:46.000
	has a lot to benefit from just decreasing from 32 years

	54:46.000 --> 54:49.680
	to one second, as opposed to on the scale of seconds

	54:49.680 --> 54:51.480
	and minutes and hours making decisions

	54:51.480 --> 54:53.400
	that humans are better at making.

	54:53.400 --> 54:54.960
	And it actually goes the other way, too.

	54:54.960 --> 54:57.160
	So that's on the short time scale.

	54:57.160 --> 55:00.600
	So humans kind of work in the one second, two seconds

	55:00.600 --> 55:01.520
	to eight hours.

	55:01.520 --> 55:04.320
	After eight hours, you get tired.

	55:04.320 --> 55:07.480
	You got to go to the bathroom, whatever the case might be.

	55:07.480 --> 55:09.720
	So there's this whole range of other things.

	55:09.720 --> 55:16.560
	Think about surveillance and guarding facilities.

	55:16.560 --> 55:20.480
	Think about moving material, logistics, sustainment.

	55:20.480 --> 55:23.280
	A lot of these what they call dull, dirty, and dangerous

	55:23.280 --> 55:26.160
	things that you need to have sustained activity,

	55:26.160 --> 55:28.000
	but it's sort of beyond the length of time

	55:28.000 --> 55:30.920
	that a human can practically do as well.

	55:30.920 --> 55:34.200
	So there's this range of things that

	55:34.200 --> 55:39.080
	are critical in military and defense applications

	55:39.080 --> 55:43.200
	that AI and autonomy are particularly well suited to.

	55:43.200 --> 55:45.840
	Now, the interesting question that you brought up

	55:45.840 --> 55:49.840
	is, OK, how do you make sure that stays within human control?

	55:49.840 --> 55:52.320
	So that was the context for the policy.

	55:52.320 --> 55:56.160
	And so there is a DOD directive called 3,000.09,

	55:56.160 --> 55:58.520
	because that's the way we name stuff in this world.

	56:01.720 --> 56:04.240
	And I'd say it's well worth reading.

	56:04.240 --> 56:07.240
	It's only a couple pages long, but it makes some key points.

	56:07.240 --> 56:09.480
	And it's really around making sure

	56:09.480 --> 56:14.840
	that there's human agency and control over use

	56:14.840 --> 56:20.240
	of semi autonomous and autonomous weapons systems,

	56:20.240 --> 56:23.800
	making sure that these systems are tested, verified,

	56:23.800 --> 56:28.200
	and evaluated in realistic, real world type scenarios,

	56:28.200 --> 56:29.960
	making sure that the people are actually

	56:29.960 --> 56:32.440
	trained on how to use them, making sure

	56:32.440 --> 56:36.160
	that the systems have human machine interfaces that

	56:36.160 --> 56:39.320
	can show what state they're in and what kinds of decisions

	56:39.320 --> 56:41.080
	they're making, making sure that you

	56:41.080 --> 56:45.800
	establish doctrine and tactics and techniques and procedures

	56:45.800 --> 56:48.240
	for the use of these kinds of systems.

	56:48.240 --> 56:52.880
	And so, and by the way, I mean, none of this is easy,

	56:52.880 --> 56:56.480
	but I'm just trying to lay kind of the picture of how

	56:56.480 --> 56:59.080
	the US has said, this is the way we're

	56:59.080 --> 57:02.600
	going to treat AI and autonomous systems,

	57:02.600 --> 57:04.600
	that it's not a free for all.

	57:04.600 --> 57:08.120
	And like there are rules of war and rules of engagement

	57:08.120 --> 57:10.600
	with other kinds of systems, think chemical weapons,

	57:10.600 --> 57:13.080
	biological weapons, we need to think

	57:13.080 --> 57:15.760
	about the same sorts of implications.

	57:15.760 --> 57:17.920
	And this is something that's really important for Lockheed

	57:17.920 --> 57:20.680
	Martin, I mean, obviously we are 100%

	57:20.680 --> 57:26.400
	complying with our customer and the policies and regulations.

	57:26.400 --> 57:30.760
	But I mean, AI is an incredible enabler, say,

	57:30.760 --> 57:32.360
	within the walls of Lockheed Martin

	57:32.360 --> 57:35.640
	in terms of improving production efficiency,

	57:35.640 --> 57:38.240
	helping engineers doing generative design,

	57:38.240 --> 57:42.040
	improving logistics, driving down energy costs.

	57:42.040 --> 57:44.320
	I mean, there's so many applications.

	57:44.320 --> 57:47.440
	But we're also very interested in some

	57:47.440 --> 57:50.000
	of the elements of ethical application

	57:50.000 --> 57:51.800
	within Lockheed Martin.

	57:51.800 --> 57:56.720
	So we need to make sure that things like privacy is taken care

	57:56.720 --> 57:59.240
	of, that we do everything we can to drive out

	57:59.240 --> 58:03.440
	bias in AI enabled kinds of systems,

	58:03.440 --> 58:06.280
	that we make sure that humans are involved in decisions

	58:06.280 --> 58:10.600
	that we're not just delegating accountability to algorithms.

	58:10.600 --> 58:14.480
	And so for us, I talked about culture before,

	58:14.480 --> 58:17.840
	and it comes back to sort of the Lockheed Martin culture

	58:17.840 --> 58:19.200
	and our core values.

	58:19.200 --> 58:21.680
	And so it's pretty simple for us to do what's right,

	58:21.680 --> 58:24.200
	respect others, perform with excellence.

	58:24.200 --> 58:27.880
	And now how do we tie that back to the ethical principles

	58:27.880 --> 58:31.960
	that will govern how AI is used within Lockheed Martin?

	58:31.960 --> 58:35.520
	And we actually have a world, so you might not know this,

	58:35.520 --> 58:37.680
	but they're actually awards for ethics programs.

	58:37.680 --> 58:41.400
	Lockheed Martin's had a recognized ethics program

	58:41.400 --> 58:43.600
	for many years, and this is one of the things

	58:43.600 --> 58:47.760
	that our ethics team is working with our engineering team on.

	58:47.760 --> 58:51.240
	One of the miracles to me, perhaps a layman,

	58:51.240 --> 58:53.680
	again, I was born in the Soviet Union,

	58:53.680 --> 58:58.400
	so I have echoes, at least in my family history of World War

	58:58.400 --> 59:02.080
	II and the Cold War, do you have a sense

	59:02.080 --> 59:06.120
	of why human civilization has not destroyed itself

	59:06.120 --> 59:09.120
	through nuclear war, so nuclear deterrence?

	59:09.120 --> 59:12.760
	And thinking about the future, this technology

	59:12.760 --> 59:15.080
	of our role to play here, and what

	59:15.080 --> 59:20.440
	is the long term future of nuclear deterrence look like?

	59:20.440 --> 59:25.760
	Yeah, this is one of those hard, hard questions.

	59:25.760 --> 59:28.960
	And I should note that Lockheed Martin is both proud

	59:28.960 --> 59:31.480
	and privileged to play a part in multiple legs

	59:31.480 --> 59:35.880
	of our nuclear and strategic deterrent systems

	59:35.880 --> 59:41.800
	like the Trident submarine launch ballistic missiles.

	59:41.800 --> 59:47.320
	You talk about, is there still a possibility

	59:47.320 --> 59:49.080
	that human race could destroy itself?

	59:49.080 --> 59:54.520
	I'd say that possibility is real, but interestingly,

	59:54.520 --> 59:58.600
	in some sense, I think the strategic deterrence

	59:58.600 --> 1:00:03.400
	have prevented the kinds of incredibly destructive world

	1:00:03.400 --> 1:00:07.280
	wars that we saw in the first half of the 20th century.

	1:00:07.280 --> 1:00:10.880
	Now, things have gotten more complicated since that time

	1:00:10.880 --> 1:00:12.280
	and since the Cold War.

	1:00:12.280 --> 1:00:16.560
	It is more of a multipolar, great powers world today.

	1:00:16.560 --> 1:00:19.000
	Just to give you an example, back then,

	1:00:19.000 --> 1:00:21.840
	there were in the Cold War timeframe

	1:00:21.840 --> 1:00:24.160
	just a handful of nations that had ballistic missile

	1:00:24.160 --> 1:00:25.960
	capability.

	1:00:25.960 --> 1:00:28.200
	By last count, and this is a few years old,

	1:00:28.200 --> 1:00:31.200
	there's over 70 nations today that have that,

	1:00:31.200 --> 1:00:38.000
	similar kinds of numbers in terms of space based capabilities.

	1:00:38.000 --> 1:00:42.520
	So the world has gotten more complex and more challenging

	1:00:42.520 --> 1:00:46.040
	and the threats, I think, have proliferated in ways

	1:00:46.040 --> 1:00:49.480
	that we didn't expect.

	1:00:49.480 --> 1:00:51.920
	The nation today is in the middle

	1:00:51.920 --> 1:00:55.280
	of a recapitalization of our strategic deterrent.

	1:00:55.280 --> 1:00:58.680
	I look at that as one of the most important things

	1:00:58.680 --> 1:01:00.240
	that our nation can do.

	1:01:00.240 --> 1:01:01.840
	What is involved in deterrence?

	1:01:01.840 --> 1:01:08.000
	Is it being ready to attack?

	1:01:08.000 --> 1:01:11.520
	Or is it the defensive systems that catch attacks?

	1:01:11.520 --> 1:01:13.120
	A little bit of both, and so it's

	1:01:13.120 --> 1:01:16.600
	a complicated game theoretical kind of program.

	1:01:16.600 --> 1:01:23.280
	But ultimately, we are trying to prevent the use

	1:01:23.280 --> 1:01:24.880
	of any of these weapons.

	1:01:24.880 --> 1:01:28.000
	And the theory behind prevention is

	1:01:28.000 --> 1:01:33.280
	that even if an adversary uses a weapon against you,

	1:01:33.280 --> 1:01:37.600
	you have the capability to essentially strike back

	1:01:37.600 --> 1:01:40.800
	and do harm to them that's unacceptable.

	1:01:40.800 --> 1:01:44.880
	And so that will deter them from making use

	1:01:44.880 --> 1:01:48.000
	of these weapons systems.

	1:01:48.000 --> 1:01:50.760
	The deterrence calculus has changed, of course,

	1:01:50.760 --> 1:01:56.320
	with more nations now having these kinds of weapons.

	1:01:56.320 --> 1:01:59.120
	But I think from my perspective, it's

	1:01:59.120 --> 1:02:05.000
	very important to maintain a strategic deterrent.

	1:02:05.000 --> 1:02:08.760
	You have to have systems that you will know will work

	1:02:08.760 --> 1:02:10.920
	when they're required to work.

	1:02:10.920 --> 1:02:12.640
	And you know that they have to be

	1:02:12.640 --> 1:02:16.440
	adaptable to a variety of different scenarios

	1:02:16.440 --> 1:02:17.680
	in today's world.

	1:02:17.680 --> 1:02:20.320
	And so that's what this recapitalization of systems

	1:02:20.320 --> 1:02:23.200
	that were built over previous decades,

	1:02:23.200 --> 1:02:26.640
	making sure that they are appropriate not just for today,

	1:02:26.640 --> 1:02:29.080
	but for the decades to come.

	1:02:29.080 --> 1:02:32.160
	So the other thing I'd really like to note

	1:02:32.160 --> 1:02:40.120
	is strategic deterrence has a very different character today.

	1:02:40.120 --> 1:02:42.360
	We used to think of weapons of mass destruction

	1:02:42.360 --> 1:02:45.720
	in terms of nuclear, chemical, biological.

	1:02:45.720 --> 1:02:48.640
	And today we have a cyber threat.

	1:02:48.640 --> 1:02:54.320
	We've seen examples of the use of cyber weaponry.

	1:02:54.320 --> 1:02:58.520
	And if you think about the possibilities

	1:02:58.520 --> 1:03:03.880
	of using cyber capabilities or an adversary attacking the US

	1:03:03.880 --> 1:03:07.560
	to take out things like critical infrastructure,

	1:03:07.560 --> 1:03:12.840
	electrical grids, water systems, those

	1:03:12.840 --> 1:03:16.280
	are scenarios that are strategic in nature

	1:03:16.280 --> 1:03:19.040
	to the survival of a nation as well.

	1:03:19.040 --> 1:03:23.000
	So that is the kind of world that we live in today.

	1:03:23.000 --> 1:03:26.640
	And part of my hope on this is one

	1:03:26.640 --> 1:03:30.840
	that we can also develop technological systems,

	1:03:30.840 --> 1:03:33.640
	perhaps enabled by AI and autonomy,

	1:03:33.640 --> 1:03:38.600
	that will allow us to contain and to fight back

	1:03:38.600 --> 1:03:42.840
	against these kinds of new threats that were not

	1:03:42.840 --> 1:03:46.280
	conceived when we first developed our strategic deterrence.

	1:03:46.280 --> 1:03:48.360
	Yeah, I know that Lockheed is involved in cyber.

	1:03:48.360 --> 1:03:52.040
	So I saw that you mentioned that.

	1:03:52.040 --> 1:03:54.440
	It's an incredibly change.

	1:03:54.440 --> 1:03:57.360
	Nuclear almost seems easier than cyber,

	1:03:57.360 --> 1:03:58.680
	because there's so many attack.

	1:03:58.680 --> 1:04:01.720
	There's so many ways that cyber can evolve

	1:04:01.720 --> 1:04:03.400
	in such an uncertain future.

	1:04:03.400 --> 1:04:05.800
	But talking about engineering with a mission,

	1:04:05.800 --> 1:04:09.680
	I mean, in this case, your engineering systems

	1:04:09.680 --> 1:04:13.880
	that basically save the world.

	1:04:13.880 --> 1:04:18.040
	Well, like I said, we're privileged to work

	1:04:18.040 --> 1:04:20.000
	on some very challenging problems

	1:04:20.000 --> 1:04:23.360
	for very critical customers here in the US

	1:04:23.360 --> 1:04:26.920
	and with our allies abroad as well.

	1:04:26.920 --> 1:04:30.800
	Lockheed builds both military and nonmilitary systems.

	1:04:30.800 --> 1:04:32.960
	And perhaps the future of Lockheed

	1:04:32.960 --> 1:04:35.360
	may be more in nonmilitary applications

	1:04:35.360 --> 1:04:38.320
	if you talk about space and beyond.

	1:04:38.320 --> 1:04:41.480
	I say that as a preface to a difficult question.

	1:04:41.480 --> 1:04:46.200
	So President Eisenhower in 1961 in his farewell address

	1:04:46.200 --> 1:04:49.080
	talked about the military industrial complex

	1:04:49.080 --> 1:04:52.800
	and that it shouldn't grow beyond what is needed.

	1:04:52.800 --> 1:04:55.880
	So what are your thoughts on those words

	1:04:55.880 --> 1:04:58.800
	on the military industrial complex,

	1:04:58.800 --> 1:05:04.080
	on the concern of growth of their developments

	1:05:04.080 --> 1:05:07.120
	beyond what may be needed?

	1:05:07.120 --> 1:05:12.400
	That what may be needed is a critical phrase, of course.

	1:05:12.400 --> 1:05:14.960
	And I think it is worth pointing out, as you noted,

	1:05:14.960 --> 1:05:19.360
	that Lockheed Martin, we're in a number of commercial businesses

	1:05:19.360 --> 1:05:23.960
	from energy to space to commercial aircraft.

	1:05:23.960 --> 1:05:28.640
	And so I wouldn't neglect the importance

	1:05:28.640 --> 1:05:32.160
	of those parts of our business as well.

	1:05:32.160 --> 1:05:34.480
	I think the world is dynamic.

	1:05:34.480 --> 1:05:38.880
	And there was a time, it doesn't seem that long ago to me,

	1:05:38.880 --> 1:05:41.840
	was I was a graduate student here at MIT

	1:05:41.840 --> 1:05:43.320
	and we were talking about the peace

	1:05:43.320 --> 1:05:45.760
	dividend at the end of the Cold War.

	1:05:45.760 --> 1:05:49.200
	If you look at expenditure on military systems

	1:05:49.200 --> 1:05:55.640
	as a fraction of GDP, we're far below peak levels of the past.

	1:05:55.640 --> 1:05:59.120
	And to me, at least, it looks like a time

	1:05:59.120 --> 1:06:02.920
	where you're seeing global threats changing in a way that

	1:06:02.920 --> 1:06:06.920
	would warrant relevant investments

	1:06:06.920 --> 1:06:10.920
	in defensive capabilities.

	1:06:10.920 --> 1:06:18.520
	The other thing I'd note, for military and defensive systems,

	1:06:18.520 --> 1:06:21.440
	it's not quite a free market, right?

	1:06:21.440 --> 1:06:25.720
	We don't sell to people on the street.

	1:06:25.720 --> 1:06:29.440
	And that warrants a very close partnership

	1:06:29.440 --> 1:06:34.280
	between, I'd say, the customers and the people that design,

	1:06:34.280 --> 1:06:39.200
	build, and maintain these systems because

	1:06:39.200 --> 1:06:44.920
	of the very unique nature, the very difficult requirements,

	1:06:44.920 --> 1:06:49.440
	the very great importance on safety

	1:06:49.440 --> 1:06:54.560
	and on operating the way they're intended every time.

	1:06:54.560 --> 1:06:57.680
	And so that does create, and it's frankly

	1:06:57.680 --> 1:06:59.560
	one of Lockheed Martin's great strengths

	1:06:59.560 --> 1:07:01.920
	is that we have this expertise built up

	1:07:01.920 --> 1:07:05.440
	over many years in partnership with our customers

	1:07:05.440 --> 1:07:08.360
	to be able to design and build these systems that

	1:07:08.360 --> 1:07:11.600
	meet these very unique mission needs.

	1:07:11.600 --> 1:07:14.400
	Yeah, because building those systems very costly,

	1:07:14.400 --> 1:07:16.120
	there's very little room for mistake.

	1:07:16.120 --> 1:07:19.000
	I mean, it's just Ben Rich's book and so on

	1:07:19.000 --> 1:07:20.360
	just tells the story.

	1:07:20.360 --> 1:07:22.440
	It's nowhere I can just reading it.

	1:07:22.440 --> 1:07:24.400
	If you're an engineer, it reads like a thriller.

	1:07:24.400 --> 1:07:30.680
	OK, let's go back to space for a second.

	1:07:30.680 --> 1:07:33.080
	I'm always happy to go back to space.

	1:07:33.080 --> 1:07:38.320
	So a few quick, maybe out there, maybe fun questions,

	1:07:38.320 --> 1:07:40.520
	maybe a little provocative.

	1:07:40.520 --> 1:07:46.560
	What are your thoughts on the efforts of the new folks,

	1:07:46.560 --> 1:07:48.840
	SpaceX and Elon Musk?

	1:07:48.840 --> 1:07:50.880
	What are your thoughts about what Elon is doing?

	1:07:50.880 --> 1:07:55.320
	Do you see him as competition, do you enjoy competition?

	1:07:55.320 --> 1:07:56.440
	What are your thoughts?

	1:07:56.440 --> 1:08:00.160
	First of all, certainly Elon, I'd

	1:08:00.160 --> 1:08:03.200
	say SpaceX and some of his other ventures

	1:08:03.200 --> 1:08:08.160
	are definitely a competitive force in the space industry.

	1:08:08.160 --> 1:08:09.880
	And do we like competition?

	1:08:09.880 --> 1:08:11.520
	Yeah, we do.

	1:08:11.520 --> 1:08:15.480
	And we think we're very strong competitors.

	1:08:15.480 --> 1:08:20.800
	I think competition is what the US is founded on

	1:08:20.800 --> 1:08:24.680
	in a lot of ways and always coming up with a better way.

	1:08:24.680 --> 1:08:29.480
	And I think it's really important to continue

	1:08:29.480 --> 1:08:33.000
	to have fresh eyes coming in, new innovation.

	1:08:33.000 --> 1:08:35.480
	I do think it's important to have level playing fields.

	1:08:35.480 --> 1:08:38.760
	And so you want to make sure that you're not

	1:08:38.760 --> 1:08:42.800
	giving different requirements to different players.

	1:08:42.800 --> 1:08:47.560
	But I tell people, I spent a lot of time at places like MIT.

	1:08:47.560 --> 1:08:50.600
	I'm going to be at the MIT Beaver Works Summer Institute

	1:08:50.600 --> 1:08:52.120
	over the weekend here.

	1:08:52.120 --> 1:08:55.040
	And I tell people, this is the most exciting time

	1:08:55.040 --> 1:08:58.400
	to be in the space business in my entire life.

	1:08:58.400 --> 1:09:02.960
	And it is this explosion of new capabilities

	1:09:02.960 --> 1:09:06.960
	that have been driven by things like the massive increase

	1:09:06.960 --> 1:09:10.920
	in computing power, things like the massive increase

	1:09:10.920 --> 1:09:15.120
	in comms capabilities, advanced and additive manufacturing,

	1:09:15.120 --> 1:09:18.800
	are really bringing down the barriers to entry

	1:09:18.800 --> 1:09:21.880
	in this field and it's driving just incredible innovation.

	1:09:21.880 --> 1:09:23.600
	It's happening at startups, but it's also

	1:09:23.600 --> 1:09:25.400
	happening at Lockheed Martin.

	1:09:25.400 --> 1:09:27.600
	I did not realize this, but Lockheed Martin, working

	1:09:27.600 --> 1:09:31.360
	with Stanford, actually built the first cubes that

	1:09:31.360 --> 1:09:35.120
	was launched here out of the US that was called Quakesat.

	1:09:35.120 --> 1:09:37.440
	And we did that with Stellar Solutions.

	1:09:37.440 --> 1:09:41.640
	This was right around just after 2000, I guess.

	1:09:41.640 --> 1:09:45.480
	And so we've been in that from the very beginning.

	1:09:45.480 --> 1:09:50.080
	And I talked about some of these like Maya and Orion,

	1:09:50.080 --> 1:09:54.760
	but we're in the middle of what we call smartsats and software

	1:09:54.760 --> 1:09:58.800
	to find satellites that can essentially restructure and remap

	1:09:58.800 --> 1:10:02.400
	their purpose, their mission on orbit

	1:10:02.400 --> 1:10:06.520
	to give you almost unlimited flexibility for these satellites

	1:10:06.520 --> 1:10:08.000
	over their lifetimes.

	1:10:08.000 --> 1:10:10.200
	So those are just a couple of examples,

	1:10:10.200 --> 1:10:13.440
	but yeah, this is a great time to be in space.

	1:10:13.440 --> 1:10:14.360
	Absolutely.

	1:10:14.360 --> 1:10:20.160
	So Wright Brothers flew for the first time 116 years ago.

	1:10:20.160 --> 1:10:23.040
	So now we have supersonic stealth planes

	1:10:23.040 --> 1:10:25.440
	and all the technology we've talked about.

	1:10:25.440 --> 1:10:29.280
	What innovations, obviously you can't predict the future,

	1:10:29.280 --> 1:10:32.440
	but do you see Lockheed in the next 100 years?

	1:10:32.440 --> 1:10:36.800
	If you take that same leap, how will the world of technology

	1:10:36.800 --> 1:10:37.840
	and engineering change?

	1:10:37.840 --> 1:10:39.320
	I know it's an impossible question,

	1:10:39.320 --> 1:10:42.920
	but nobody could have predicted that we could even

	1:10:42.920 --> 1:10:45.800
	fly 120 years ago.

	1:10:45.800 --> 1:10:50.640
	So what do you think is the edge of possibility

	1:10:50.640 --> 1:10:52.680
	that we're going to be exploring in the next 100 years?

	1:10:52.680 --> 1:10:55.440
	I don't know that there is an edge.

	1:10:55.440 --> 1:11:00.760
	We've been around for almost that entire time, right?

	1:11:00.760 --> 1:11:03.840
	The Lockheed Brothers and Glenn L. Martin

	1:11:03.840 --> 1:11:07.960
	starting their companies in the basement of a church

	1:11:07.960 --> 1:11:11.840
	and an old service station.

	1:11:11.840 --> 1:11:14.240
	We're very different companies today

	1:11:14.240 --> 1:11:15.720
	than we were back then, right?

	1:11:15.720 --> 1:11:17.680
	And that's because we've continuously

	1:11:17.680 --> 1:11:21.680
	reinvented ourselves over all of those decades.

	1:11:21.680 --> 1:11:24.320
	I think it's fair to say, I know this for sure,

	1:11:24.320 --> 1:11:27.840
	the world of the future, it's going to move faster,

	1:11:27.840 --> 1:11:29.320
	it's going to be more connected,

	1:11:29.320 --> 1:11:31.640
	it's going to be more autonomous,

	1:11:31.640 --> 1:11:36.160
	and it's going to be more complex than it is today.

	1:11:36.160 --> 1:11:39.680
	And so this is the world as a CTO of Lockheed Martin

	1:11:39.680 --> 1:11:41.560
	that I think about, what are the technologies

	1:11:41.560 --> 1:11:42.720
	that we have to invest in?

	1:11:42.720 --> 1:11:45.480
	Whether it's things like AI and autonomy,

	1:11:45.480 --> 1:11:47.280
	you can think about quantum computing,

	1:11:47.280 --> 1:11:49.120
	which is an area that we've invested in

	1:11:49.120 --> 1:11:53.520
	to try to stay ahead of these technological changes

	1:11:53.520 --> 1:11:56.280
	and frankly, some of the threats that are out there.

	1:11:56.280 --> 1:11:58.360
	And I believe that we're going to be out there

	1:11:58.360 --> 1:12:00.840
	in the solar system, that we're going to be defending

	1:12:00.840 --> 1:12:04.960
	and defending well against probably military threats

	1:12:04.960 --> 1:12:08.120
	that nobody has even thought about today.

	1:12:08.120 --> 1:12:12.400
	We are going to be, we're going to use these capabilities

	1:12:12.400 --> 1:12:15.720
	to have far greater knowledge of our own planet,

	1:12:15.720 --> 1:12:19.320
	the depths of the oceans, all the way to the upper reaches

	1:12:19.320 --> 1:12:21.400
	of the atmosphere and everything out to the sun

	1:12:21.400 --> 1:12:23.440
	and to the edge of the solar system.

	1:12:23.440 --> 1:12:26.760
	So that's what I look forward to.

	1:12:26.760 --> 1:12:30.840
	And I'm excited, I mean, just looking ahead

	1:12:30.840 --> 1:12:33.360
	in the next decade or so to the steps

	1:12:33.360 --> 1:12:35.320
	that I see ahead of us in that time.

	1:12:35.320 --> 1:12:38.240
	I don't think there's a better place to end.

	1:12:38.240 --> 1:12:39.600
	Okay, thank you so much.

	1:12:39.600 --> 1:12:41.800
	Lex, it's been a real pleasure and sorry,

	1:12:41.800 --> 1:12:43.400
	it took so long to get up here,

	1:12:43.400 --> 1:13:05.680
	but glad we were able to make it happen.