WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:03.440 The following is a conversation with Keoki Jackson. 00:03.440 --> 00:06.680 He's the CTO of Lockheed Martin, 00:06.680 --> 00:08.720 a company that through his long history 00:08.720 --> 00:11.040 has created some of the most incredible engineering 00:11.040 --> 00:13.920 marvels human beings have ever built, 00:13.920 --> 00:17.040 including planes that fly fast and undetected, 00:17.040 --> 00:19.960 defense systems that intersect nuclear threats that 00:19.960 --> 00:24.280 can take the lives of millions, and systems that venture out 00:24.280 --> 00:28.320 into space, the moon, Mars, and beyond. 00:28.320 --> 00:31.800 And these days, more and more, artificial intelligence 00:31.800 --> 00:34.840 has an assistive role to play in these systems. 00:34.840 --> 00:36.720 I've read several books in preparation 00:36.720 --> 00:38.360 for this conversation. 00:38.360 --> 00:41.240 It is a difficult one, because in part, 00:41.240 --> 00:43.480 Lockheed Martin builds military systems 00:43.480 --> 00:46.360 that operate in a complicated world that often does not 00:46.360 --> 00:52.440 have easy solutions in the gray area between good and evil. 00:52.440 --> 00:56.400 I hope one day this world will rid itself of war 00:56.400 --> 00:58.520 in all its forms. 00:58.520 --> 01:00.480 But the path to achieving that in a world that 01:00.480 --> 01:02.880 does have evil is not obvious. 01:02.880 --> 01:05.120 What is obvious is good engineering 01:05.120 --> 01:07.120 and artificial intelligence research 01:07.120 --> 01:11.200 has a role to play on the side of good. 01:11.200 --> 01:14.000 Lockheed Martin and the rest of our community 01:14.000 --> 01:17.040 are hard at work at exactly this task. 01:17.040 --> 01:19.720 We talk about these and other important topics 01:19.720 --> 01:21.320 in this conversation. 01:21.320 --> 01:27.040 Also, most certainly, both Kiyoki and I have a passion for space, 01:27.040 --> 01:32.280 us humans venturing out toward the stars. 01:32.280 --> 01:35.400 We talk about this exciting future as well. 01:35.400 --> 01:38.040 This is the artificial intelligence podcast. 01:38.040 --> 01:40.480 If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube, 01:40.480 --> 01:43.880 give it five stars on iTunes, support it on Patreon, 01:43.880 --> 01:45.920 or simply connect with me on Twitter 01:45.920 --> 01:50.640 at Lex Freedman, spelled F R I D M A N. 01:50.640 --> 01:55.480 And now, here's my conversation with Kiyoki Jackson. 01:55.480 --> 01:57.880 I read several books on Lockheed Martin recently. 01:57.880 --> 02:00.480 My favorite, in particular, is by Ben Rich, 02:00.480 --> 02:03.360 called Skonkork's personal memoir. 02:03.360 --> 02:05.120 It gets a little edgy at times. 02:05.120 --> 02:09.960 But from that, I was reminded that the engineers of Lockheed 02:09.960 --> 02:13.360 Martin have created some of the most incredible engineering 02:13.360 --> 02:17.000 marvels human beings have ever built throughout the 20th century 02:17.000 --> 02:18.680 and the 21st. 02:18.680 --> 02:22.640 Do you remember a particular project or system at Lockheed 02:22.640 --> 02:25.440 or before that at the Space Shuttle Columbia 02:25.440 --> 02:28.240 that you were just in awe at the fact 02:28.240 --> 02:32.600 that us humans could create something like this? 02:32.600 --> 02:34.160 That's a great question. 02:34.160 --> 02:37.400 There's a lot of things that I could draw on there. 02:37.400 --> 02:39.800 When you look at the Skonkorks and Ben Rich's book, 02:39.800 --> 02:41.600 in particular, of course, it starts off 02:41.600 --> 02:46.480 with basically the start of the jet age and the P80. 02:46.480 --> 02:50.440 I had the opportunity to sit next to one of the Apollo 02:50.440 --> 02:53.040 astronauts, Charlie Duke, recently at dinner. 02:53.040 --> 02:56.040 And I said, hey, what's your favorite aircraft? 02:56.040 --> 02:59.520 And he said, well, it was by far the F104 Starfighter, which 02:59.520 --> 03:02.720 was another aircraft that came out of Lockheed there. 03:02.720 --> 03:03.720 What kind of? 03:03.720 --> 03:08.200 It was the first Mach 2 jet fighter aircraft. 03:08.200 --> 03:11.120 They called it the missile with a man in it. 03:11.120 --> 03:12.400 And so those are the kinds of things 03:12.400 --> 03:15.240 I grew up hearing stories about. 03:15.240 --> 03:19.080 Of course, the SR 71 is incomparable 03:19.080 --> 03:25.160 as kind of the epitome of speed, altitude, and just 03:25.160 --> 03:26.760 the coolest looking aircraft ever. 03:26.760 --> 03:28.560 So there's a reconnaissance that's 03:28.560 --> 03:30.920 a plane that's a intelligence surveillance 03:30.920 --> 03:33.320 and reconnaissance aircraft that was designed 03:33.320 --> 03:36.160 to be able to outrun, basically go faster 03:36.160 --> 03:38.560 than any air defense system. 03:38.560 --> 03:42.880 But I'll tell you, I'm a space junkie. 03:42.880 --> 03:44.800 That's why I came to MIT. 03:44.800 --> 03:49.080 That's really what took me, ultimately, to Lockheed Martin. 03:49.080 --> 03:51.320 And I grew up, and so Lockheed Martin, for example, 03:51.320 --> 03:56.280 has been essentially at the heart of every planetary mission, 03:56.280 --> 03:59.520 like all the Mars missions we've had a part in. 03:59.520 --> 04:02.560 And we've talked a lot about the 50th anniversary of Apollo 04:02.560 --> 04:04.920 here in the last couple of weeks, right? 04:04.920 --> 04:10.520 But remember, 1976, July 20, again, the National Space 04:10.520 --> 04:15.240 Day, so the landing of the Viking lander on the surface 04:15.240 --> 04:17.960 of Mars, just a huge accomplishment. 04:17.960 --> 04:20.960 And when I was a young engineer at Lockheed Martin, 04:20.960 --> 04:25.000 I got to meet engineers who had designed various pieces 04:25.000 --> 04:26.880 of that mission as well. 04:26.880 --> 04:29.680 So that's what I grew up on is these planetary missions, 04:29.680 --> 04:31.480 the start of the space shuttle era, 04:31.480 --> 04:35.720 and ultimately had the opportunity 04:35.720 --> 04:39.200 to see Lockheed Martin's part in what 04:39.200 --> 04:41.120 we can maybe talk about some of these here, 04:41.120 --> 04:43.600 but Lockheed Martin's part in all of these space journeys 04:43.600 --> 04:44.720 over the years. 04:44.720 --> 04:48.520 Do you dream, and I apologize for getting philosophical at times, 04:48.520 --> 04:51.680 or sentimental, I do romanticize the notion 04:51.680 --> 04:53.120 of space exploration. 04:53.120 --> 04:56.120 So do you dream of the day when us humans colonize 04:56.120 --> 05:00.760 another planet, like Mars, or a man, a woman, a human being, 05:00.760 --> 05:03.200 steps on Mars? 05:03.200 --> 05:04.200 Absolutely. 05:04.200 --> 05:06.600 And that's a personal dream of mine. 05:06.600 --> 05:09.240 I haven't given up yet on my own opportunity 05:09.240 --> 05:14.440 to fly into space, but from the Lockheed Martin perspective, 05:14.440 --> 05:16.880 this is something that we're working towards every day. 05:16.880 --> 05:20.280 And of course, we're building the Orion spacecraft, which 05:20.280 --> 05:23.880 is the most sophisticated human rated spacecraft ever built. 05:23.880 --> 05:27.000 And it's really designed for these deep space journeys, 05:27.000 --> 05:29.800 starting with the moon, but ultimately going to Mars. 05:29.800 --> 05:34.760 And being the platform from a design perspective, 05:34.760 --> 05:37.440 we call the Mars Base Camp to be able to take humans 05:37.440 --> 05:41.000 to the surface, and then after a mission of a couple of weeks, 05:41.000 --> 05:42.280 bring them back up safely. 05:42.280 --> 05:45.560 And so that is something I want to see happen during my time 05:45.560 --> 05:46.600 at Lockheed Martin. 05:46.600 --> 05:49.400 So I'm pretty excited about that. 05:49.400 --> 05:54.400 And I think once we prove that's possible, 05:54.400 --> 05:57.120 colonization might be a little bit further out, 05:57.120 --> 06:00.040 but it's something that I'd hope to see. 06:00.040 --> 06:02.080 So maybe you can give a little bit 06:02.080 --> 06:04.880 of an overview of, so Lockheed Martin 06:04.880 --> 06:08.240 has partnered with a few years ago with Boeing 06:08.240 --> 06:11.000 to work with the DoD and NASA to build launch systems 06:11.000 --> 06:13.680 and rockets with the ULA. 06:13.680 --> 06:15.520 What's beyond that? 06:15.520 --> 06:18.000 What's Lockheed's mission, timeline, and long term 06:18.000 --> 06:19.360 dream in terms of space? 06:19.360 --> 06:22.120 You mentioned the moon. 06:22.120 --> 06:26.400 I've heard you talk about asteroids as Mars. 06:26.400 --> 06:27.640 What's the timeline? 06:27.640 --> 06:29.280 What's the engineering challenges? 06:29.280 --> 06:31.360 And what's the dream long term? 06:31.360 --> 06:33.400 Yeah, I think the dream long term is 06:33.400 --> 06:37.080 to have a permanent presence in space beyond low Earth 06:37.080 --> 06:41.080 orbit, ultimately with a long term presence on the moon 06:41.080 --> 06:43.760 and then to the planets to Mars. 06:43.760 --> 06:45.600 And it's very interrupting that. 06:45.600 --> 06:49.640 So long term presence means sustained and sustainable 06:49.640 --> 06:52.640 presence in an economy, a space economy, 06:52.640 --> 06:54.400 that really goes alongside that. 06:54.400 --> 06:58.280 With human beings and being able to launch perhaps 06:58.280 --> 07:02.160 from those, so like hop. 07:02.160 --> 07:04.520 You know, there's a lot of energy 07:04.520 --> 07:06.000 that goes in those hops, right? 07:06.000 --> 07:08.960 So I think the first step is being 07:08.960 --> 07:12.240 able to get there and to be able to establish sustained basis, 07:12.240 --> 07:14.840 right, and build from there. 07:14.840 --> 07:18.960 And a lot of that means getting, as you know, 07:18.960 --> 07:21.480 things like the cost of launch down. 07:21.480 --> 07:23.560 And you mentioned United Launch Alliance. 07:23.560 --> 07:26.080 And so I don't want to speak for ULA, 07:26.080 --> 07:28.960 but obviously they're working really hard 07:28.960 --> 07:34.560 to, on their next generation of launch vehicles, 07:34.560 --> 07:39.200 to maintain that incredible mission success record 07:39.200 --> 07:41.360 that ULA has, but ultimately continue 07:41.360 --> 07:44.320 to drive down the cost and make the flexibility, the speed, 07:44.320 --> 07:46.880 and the access ever greater. 07:46.880 --> 07:50.360 So what's the missions that are in the horizon 07:50.360 --> 07:51.640 that you could talk to? 07:51.640 --> 07:53.320 Is there a hope to get to the moon? 07:53.320 --> 07:54.600 Absolutely, absolutely. 07:54.600 --> 07:57.000 I mean, I think you know this, or you 07:57.000 --> 07:59.040 may know this, there's a lot of ways 07:59.040 --> 08:00.600 to accomplish some of these goals. 08:00.600 --> 08:03.760 And so that's a lot of what's in discussion today. 08:03.760 --> 08:06.160 But ultimately, the goal is to be 08:06.160 --> 08:09.520 able to establish a base, essentially 08:09.520 --> 08:16.280 in CIS lunar space that would allow for ready transfer 08:16.280 --> 08:19.920 from orbit to the lunar surface and back again. 08:19.920 --> 08:21.800 And so that's sort of that near term, 08:21.800 --> 08:25.920 I say near term in the next decade or so vision, 08:25.920 --> 08:28.400 starting off with a stated objective 08:28.400 --> 08:32.640 by this administration to get back to the moon in the 2024, 08:32.640 --> 08:37.200 2025 time frame, which is right around the corner here. 08:37.200 --> 08:41.400 How big of an engineering challenge is that? 08:41.400 --> 08:46.040 I think the big challenge is not so much to go, but to stay. 08:46.040 --> 08:48.840 And so we demonstrated in the 60s 08:48.840 --> 08:52.880 that you could send somebody up, do a couple of days of mission, 08:52.880 --> 08:55.560 and bring them home again successfully. 08:55.560 --> 08:57.240 Now we're talking about doing that, 08:57.240 --> 08:59.760 I'd say more to, I don't want to say an industrial scale, 08:59.760 --> 09:01.360 but a sustained scale. 09:01.360 --> 09:09.400 So permanent habitation, regular reuse of vehicles, 09:09.400 --> 09:16.160 the infrastructure to get things like fuel, air, consumables, 09:16.160 --> 09:18.960 replacement parts, all the things that you need to sustain 09:18.960 --> 09:20.760 that kind of infrastructure. 09:20.760 --> 09:23.640 So those are certainly engineering challenges. 09:23.640 --> 09:26.120 There are budgetary challenges. 09:26.120 --> 09:29.240 And those are all things that we're 09:29.240 --> 09:30.680 going to have to work through. 09:30.680 --> 09:33.880 The other thing, and I shouldn't, 09:33.880 --> 09:35.080 I don't want to minimize this. 09:35.080 --> 09:38.240 I mean, I'm excited about human exploration, 09:38.240 --> 09:40.840 but the reality is our technology 09:40.840 --> 09:45.040 and where we've come over the last 40 years, essentially, 09:45.040 --> 09:48.880 has changed what we can do with robotic exploration as well. 09:48.880 --> 09:52.080 And to me, it's incredibly thrilling. 09:52.080 --> 09:54.640 This seems like old news now, but the fact 09:54.640 --> 09:58.640 that we have rovers driving around the surface of Mars 09:58.640 --> 10:01.360 and sending back data is just incredible. 10:01.360 --> 10:04.280 The fact that we have satellites in orbit around Mars 10:04.280 --> 10:06.600 that are collecting weather, they're 10:06.600 --> 10:08.360 looking at the terrain, they're mapping, 10:08.360 --> 10:11.360 all these kinds of things on a continuous basis, 10:11.360 --> 10:12.760 that's incredible. 10:12.760 --> 10:15.440 And the fact that you got the time lag, 10:15.440 --> 10:19.040 of course, going to the planets, but you can effectively 10:19.040 --> 10:23.520 have virtual human presence there in a way 10:23.520 --> 10:25.880 that we have never been able to do before. 10:25.880 --> 10:30.080 And now, with the advent of even greater processing power, 10:30.080 --> 10:33.600 better AI systems, better cognitive systems 10:33.600 --> 10:37.160 and decision systems, you put that together 10:37.160 --> 10:39.760 with the human piece, and we really 10:39.760 --> 10:42.560 opened up the solar system in a whole different way. 10:42.560 --> 10:43.720 And I'll give you an example. 10:43.720 --> 10:47.840 We've got Osiris Rex, which is a mission to the asteroid Benus. 10:47.840 --> 10:52.000 So the spacecraft is out there right now on basically a year 10:52.000 --> 10:57.280 mapping activity to map the entire surface of that asteroid 10:57.280 --> 11:02.520 in great detail, all autonomously piloted, right? 11:02.520 --> 11:04.840 But the idea then that, and this is not too far away, 11:04.840 --> 11:05.920 it's going to go in. 11:05.920 --> 11:09.600 It's got a sort of fancy vacuum cleaner with a bucket. 11:09.600 --> 11:12.720 It's going to collect the sample off the asteroid 11:12.720 --> 11:14.400 and then send it back here to Earth. 11:14.400 --> 11:18.960 And so we have gone from sort of those tentative steps 11:18.960 --> 11:23.920 in the 70s, early landings, video of the solar system 11:23.920 --> 11:27.040 to now we've sent spacecraft to Pluto. 11:27.040 --> 11:31.600 We have gone to comets and brought and intercepted comets. 11:31.600 --> 11:37.240 We've brought stardust, material back. 11:37.240 --> 11:42.520 So we've gone far, and there's incredible opportunity 11:42.520 --> 11:43.680 to go even farther. 11:43.680 --> 11:47.400 So it seems quite crazy that this is even possible, 11:47.400 --> 11:51.400 that can you talk a little bit about what 11:51.400 --> 11:55.520 it means to orbit an asteroid with a bucket to try 11:55.520 --> 11:58.360 to pick up some soil samples? 11:58.360 --> 11:59.360 Yeah. 11:59.360 --> 12:02.400 So part of it is just kind of the, 12:02.400 --> 12:04.840 these are the same kinds of techniques 12:04.840 --> 12:10.960 we use here on Earth for high speed, high accuracy imagery, 12:10.960 --> 12:14.760 stitching these scenes together, and creating essentially 12:14.760 --> 12:17.480 high accuracy world maps. 12:17.480 --> 12:20.320 And so that's what we're doing, obviously, 12:20.320 --> 12:23.120 on a much smaller scale with an asteroid. 12:23.120 --> 12:24.960 But the other thing that's really interesting, 12:24.960 --> 12:30.720 you put together sort of that neat control and data 12:30.720 --> 12:33.640 and imagery problem. 12:33.640 --> 12:36.960 But the stories around how we design the collection, 12:36.960 --> 12:39.800 I mean, as essentially, this is the sort of the human 12:39.800 --> 12:41.360 ingenuity element, right? 12:41.360 --> 12:46.520 That essentially had an engineer who had one day he's like, 12:46.520 --> 12:50.280 well, starts messing around with parts, vacuum cleaner, 12:50.280 --> 12:53.440 bucket, maybe we could do something like this. 12:53.440 --> 12:56.280 And that was what led to what we call the Pogo stick 12:56.280 --> 12:57.000 collection, right? 12:57.000 --> 12:59.200 Where basically, I think comes down, 12:59.200 --> 13:02.840 it's only there for seconds does that collection, 13:02.840 --> 13:07.520 grabs the, essentially blows the regolith material 13:07.520 --> 13:10.200 into the collection hopper and off it goes. 13:10.200 --> 13:11.880 It doesn't really land almost. 13:11.880 --> 13:13.520 It's a very short landing. 13:13.520 --> 13:15.440 Wow, that's incredible. 13:15.440 --> 13:22.160 So what is in those, we talk a little bit more about space. 13:22.160 --> 13:24.360 What's the role of the human in all of this? 13:24.360 --> 13:25.800 What are the challenges? 13:25.800 --> 13:29.040 What are the opportunities for humans 13:29.040 --> 13:33.800 as they pilot these vehicles in space 13:33.800 --> 13:41.240 and for humans that may step foot on either the moon or Mars? 13:41.240 --> 13:44.280 Yeah, it's a great question because I just 13:44.280 --> 13:49.520 have been extolling the virtues of robotic and rovers, 13:49.520 --> 13:54.040 autonomous systems, and those absolutely have a role. 13:54.040 --> 13:57.280 I think the thing that we don't know how to replace today 13:57.280 --> 14:03.320 is the ability to adapt on the fly to new information. 14:03.320 --> 14:07.600 And I believe that will come, but we're not there yet. 14:07.600 --> 14:08.840 There's a ways to go. 14:08.840 --> 14:13.600 And so you think back to Apollo 13 14:13.600 --> 14:16.920 and the ingenuity of the folks on the ground and on the spacecraft 14:16.920 --> 14:20.120 essentially cobbled together a way 14:20.120 --> 14:23.800 to get the carbon dioxide scrubbers to work. 14:23.800 --> 14:28.280 Those are the kinds of things that ultimately, 14:28.280 --> 14:31.280 and I'd say not just from dealing with anomalies, 14:31.280 --> 14:33.640 but dealing with new information. 14:33.640 --> 14:38.360 You see something, and rather than waiting 20 minutes 14:38.360 --> 14:41.600 or half an hour an hour to try to get information back 14:41.600 --> 14:44.000 and forth, but be able to essentially 14:44.000 --> 14:47.600 revect around the fly, collect different samples, 14:47.600 --> 14:52.680 take a different approach, choose different areas to explore. 14:52.680 --> 14:56.680 Those are the kinds of things that that human presence enables 14:56.680 --> 15:00.240 that still weighs ahead of us on the AI side. 15:00.240 --> 15:02.160 Yeah, there's some interesting stuff we'll talk about 15:02.160 --> 15:04.520 on the teaming side here on Earth. 15:04.520 --> 15:06.400 That's pretty cool to explore. 15:06.400 --> 15:08.800 And in space, let's not leave the space piece out. 15:08.800 --> 15:10.320 So what is teaming? 15:10.320 --> 15:13.880 What does AI and humans working together in space look like? 15:13.880 --> 15:15.400 Yeah, one of the things we're working on 15:15.400 --> 15:19.080 is a system called Maya, which is, think of it, 15:19.080 --> 15:21.360 so it's an AI assistant. 15:21.360 --> 15:24.160 And in space, exactly. 15:24.160 --> 15:28.520 And think of it as the Alexa in space, right? 15:28.520 --> 15:31.680 But this goes hand in hand with a lot of other developments. 15:31.680 --> 15:35.120 And so today's world, everything is essentially model based, 15:35.120 --> 15:40.880 model based systems engineering to the actual digital tapestry 15:40.880 --> 15:43.880 that goes through the design, the build, the manufacture, 15:43.880 --> 15:47.600 the testing, and ultimately the sustainment of these systems. 15:47.600 --> 15:52.120 And so our vision is really that when our astronauts 15:52.120 --> 15:55.160 are there around Mars, you're going 15:55.160 --> 16:01.520 to have that entire digital library of the spacecraft, 16:01.520 --> 16:05.440 of its operations, all the test data, all the test data 16:05.440 --> 16:08.040 and flight data from previous missions 16:08.040 --> 16:11.760 to be able to look and see if there are anomalous conditions 16:11.760 --> 16:16.000 until the humans, and potentially deal with that 16:16.000 --> 16:20.640 before it becomes a bad situation and help 16:20.640 --> 16:23.160 the astronauts work through those kinds of things. 16:23.160 --> 16:26.760 And it's not just dealing with problems as they come up, 16:26.760 --> 16:29.160 but also offering up opportunities 16:29.160 --> 16:32.440 for additional exploration capability, for example. 16:32.440 --> 16:35.120 So that's the vision is that these 16:35.120 --> 16:37.720 are going to take the best of the human to respond 16:37.720 --> 16:43.480 to changing circumstances and rely on the best AI 16:43.480 --> 16:48.560 capabilities to monitor this almost infinite number 16:48.560 --> 16:51.520 of data points and correlations of data points 16:51.520 --> 16:53.960 that humans, frankly, aren't that good at. 16:53.960 --> 16:56.200 So how do you develop systems in space like this, 16:56.200 --> 17:01.560 whether it's a Alexa in space or, in general, any kind 17:01.560 --> 17:04.880 of control systems, any kind of intelligent systems, 17:04.880 --> 17:08.600 when you can't really test stuff too much out in space, 17:08.600 --> 17:10.760 it's very expensive to test stuff. 17:10.760 --> 17:14.160 So how do you develop such systems? 17:14.160 --> 17:18.880 Yeah, that's the beauty of this digital twin, if you will. 17:18.880 --> 17:21.080 And of course, with Lockheed Martin, 17:21.080 --> 17:24.520 we've over the past five plus decades 17:24.520 --> 17:28.120 been refining our knowledge of the space environment, 17:28.120 --> 17:33.240 of how materials behave, dynamics, the controls, 17:33.240 --> 17:37.160 the radiation environments, all of these kinds of things. 17:37.160 --> 17:39.880 So we're able to create very sophisticated models. 17:39.880 --> 17:43.440 They're not perfect, but they're very good. 17:43.440 --> 17:46.600 And so you can actually do a lot. 17:46.600 --> 17:51.440 I spent part of my career simulating communication 17:51.440 --> 17:56.400 spacecraft, missile warning spacecraft, GPS spacecraft, 17:56.400 --> 17:59.280 in all kinds of scenarios and all kinds of environments. 17:59.280 --> 18:01.880 So this is really just taking that to the next level. 18:01.880 --> 18:04.000 The interesting thing is that now you're 18:04.000 --> 18:07.800 bringing into that loop a system, depending on how it's 18:07.800 --> 18:10.520 developed, that may be non deterministic, 18:10.520 --> 18:13.160 it may be learning as it goes. 18:13.160 --> 18:16.560 In fact, we anticipate that it will be learning as it goes. 18:16.560 --> 18:22.160 And so that brings a whole new level of interest, I guess, 18:22.160 --> 18:25.320 into how do you do verification and validation 18:25.320 --> 18:28.520 of these non deterministic learning systems 18:28.520 --> 18:32.720 in scenarios that may go out of the bounds or the envelope 18:32.720 --> 18:35.000 that you have initially designed them to. 18:35.000 --> 18:39.200 So this system in its intelligence has the same complexity, 18:39.200 --> 18:41.040 some of the same complexity a human does. 18:41.040 --> 18:43.640 And it learns over time, it's unpredictable 18:43.640 --> 18:46.240 in certain kinds of ways. 18:46.240 --> 18:50.120 So you also have to model that when you're thinking about it. 18:50.120 --> 18:53.440 So in your thoughts, it's possible 18:53.440 --> 18:57.240 to model the majority of situations, 18:57.240 --> 18:59.640 the important aspects of situations here on Earth 18:59.640 --> 19:02.280 and in space, enough to test stuff. 19:02.280 --> 19:05.560 Yeah, this is really an active area of research. 19:05.560 --> 19:07.440 And we're actually funding university research 19:07.440 --> 19:10.080 in a variety of places, including MIT. 19:10.080 --> 19:13.720 This is in the realm of trust and verification 19:13.720 --> 19:17.920 and validation of, I'd say, autonomous systems in general. 19:17.920 --> 19:20.920 And then as a subset of that, autonomous systems 19:20.920 --> 19:24.520 that incorporate artificial intelligence capabilities. 19:24.520 --> 19:27.880 And this is not an easy problem. 19:27.880 --> 19:29.520 We're working with startup companies. 19:29.520 --> 19:33.160 We've got internal R&D, but our conviction 19:33.160 --> 19:39.200 is that autonomy and more and more AI enabled autonomy 19:39.200 --> 19:42.680 is going to be in everything that Lockheed Martin develops 19:42.680 --> 19:44.200 and fields. 19:44.200 --> 19:48.280 And autonomy and AI are going to be 19:48.280 --> 19:50.080 retrofit into existing systems. 19:50.080 --> 19:52.400 They're going to be part of the design 19:52.400 --> 19:54.440 for all of our future systems. 19:54.440 --> 19:56.680 And so maybe I should take a step back and say, 19:56.680 --> 19:58.600 the way we define autonomy. 19:58.600 --> 20:01.400 So we talk about autonomy, essentially, 20:01.400 --> 20:08.400 a system that composes, selects, and then executes decisions 20:08.400 --> 20:12.400 with varying levels of human intervention. 20:12.400 --> 20:15.720 And so you could think of no autonomy. 20:15.720 --> 20:18.400 So this is essentially a human doing the task. 20:18.400 --> 20:23.000 You can think of, effectively, partial autonomy 20:23.000 --> 20:25.720 where the human is in the loop. 20:25.720 --> 20:29.040 So making decisions in every case 20:29.040 --> 20:31.040 about what the autonomous system can do. 20:31.040 --> 20:33.120 Either in the cockpit or remotely. 20:33.120 --> 20:35.960 Or remotely, exactly, but still in that control loop. 20:35.960 --> 20:39.800 And then there's what you'd call supervisory autonomy. 20:39.800 --> 20:42.360 So the autonomous system is doing most of the work. 20:42.360 --> 20:45.880 The human can intervene to stop it or to change the direction. 20:45.880 --> 20:47.840 And then ultimately, full autonomy 20:47.840 --> 20:50.200 where the human is off the loop altogether. 20:50.200 --> 20:52.760 And for different types of missions, 20:52.760 --> 20:55.760 want to have different levels of autonomy. 20:55.760 --> 20:58.280 So now take that spectrum and this conviction 20:58.280 --> 21:01.120 that autonomy and more and more AI 21:01.120 --> 21:05.000 are in everything that we develop. 21:05.000 --> 21:08.960 The kinds of things that Lockheed Martin does a lot of times 21:08.960 --> 21:12.600 are safety of life critical kinds of missions. 21:12.600 --> 21:15.920 Think about aircraft, for example. 21:15.920 --> 21:20.040 And so we require, and our customers require, 21:20.040 --> 21:23.480 an extremely high level of confidence. 21:23.480 --> 21:26.360 One, that we're going to protect life. 21:26.360 --> 21:30.640 Two, that we're going to, that these systems will behave 21:30.640 --> 21:33.840 in ways that their operators can understand. 21:33.840 --> 21:36.360 And so this gets into that whole field. 21:36.360 --> 21:41.320 Again, being able to verify and validate 21:41.320 --> 21:44.920 that the systems have been, that they will operate 21:44.920 --> 21:48.040 the way they're designed and the way they're expected. 21:48.040 --> 21:50.720 And furthermore, that they will do that 21:50.720 --> 21:55.400 in ways that can be explained and understood. 21:55.400 --> 21:58.800 And that is an extremely difficult challenge. 21:58.800 --> 22:00.760 Yeah, so here's a difficult question. 22:00.760 --> 22:04.360 I don't mean to bring this up, 22:04.360 --> 22:05.560 but I think it's a good case study 22:05.560 --> 22:07.840 that people are familiar with. 22:07.840 --> 22:11.080 Boeing 737 MAX commercial airplane 22:11.080 --> 22:13.360 has had two recent crashes 22:13.360 --> 22:15.920 where their flight control software system failed. 22:15.920 --> 22:19.080 And it's software, so I don't mean to speak about Boeing, 22:19.080 --> 22:21.040 but broadly speaking, we have this 22:21.040 --> 22:24.040 in the autonomous vehicle space too, semi autonomous. 22:24.040 --> 22:27.840 When you have millions of lines of code software 22:27.840 --> 22:32.080 making decisions, there is a little bit of a clash 22:32.080 --> 22:35.320 of cultures because software engineers 22:35.320 --> 22:38.400 don't have the same culture of safety often. 22:39.440 --> 22:43.120 That people who build systems like at Lockheed Martin 22:43.120 --> 22:46.480 do where it has to be exceptionally safe, 22:46.480 --> 22:48.080 you have to test this on. 22:48.080 --> 22:49.880 So how do we get this right 22:49.880 --> 22:53.200 when software is making so many decisions? 22:53.200 --> 22:57.160 Yeah, and there's a lot of things that have to happen. 22:57.160 --> 23:01.280 And by and large, I think it starts with the culture, 23:01.280 --> 23:03.320 which is not necessarily something 23:03.320 --> 23:05.960 that A is taught in school, 23:05.960 --> 23:07.960 or B is something that would come, 23:07.960 --> 23:10.840 depending on what kind of software you're developing, 23:10.840 --> 23:14.240 it may not be relevant if you're targeting ads 23:14.240 --> 23:15.760 or something like that. 23:15.760 --> 23:20.600 So, and by and large, I'd say not just Lockheed Martin, 23:20.600 --> 23:23.720 but certainly the aerospace industry as a whole 23:23.720 --> 23:27.240 has developed a culture that does focus on safety, 23:27.240 --> 23:31.000 safety of life, operational safety, mission success. 23:32.200 --> 23:34.040 But as you know, these systems 23:34.040 --> 23:36.120 have gotten incredibly complex. 23:36.120 --> 23:40.720 And so they're to the point where it's almost impossible, 23:40.720 --> 23:44.840 state spaces become so huge that it's impossible to, 23:44.840 --> 23:48.880 or very difficult to do a systematic verification 23:48.880 --> 23:52.280 across the entire set of potential ways 23:52.280 --> 23:53.760 that an aircraft could be flown, 23:53.760 --> 23:55.560 all the conditions that could happen, 23:55.560 --> 23:59.320 all the potential failure scenarios. 23:59.320 --> 24:01.120 Now, maybe that's soluble one day, 24:01.120 --> 24:03.360 maybe when we have our quantum computers 24:03.360 --> 24:07.520 that our fingertips will be able to actually simulate 24:07.520 --> 24:11.280 across an entire almost infinite state space. 24:11.280 --> 24:16.280 But today, there's a lot of work 24:16.280 --> 24:20.960 to really try to bound the system, 24:20.960 --> 24:24.760 to make sure that it behaves in predictable ways, 24:24.760 --> 24:29.080 and then have this culture of continuous inquiry 24:29.080 --> 24:33.160 and skepticism and questioning to say, 24:33.160 --> 24:37.320 did we really consider the right realm of possibilities, 24:37.320 --> 24:40.160 have we done the right range of testing? 24:40.160 --> 24:42.400 Do we really understand, in this case, 24:42.400 --> 24:44.640 human and machine interactions, 24:44.640 --> 24:46.160 the human decision process 24:46.160 --> 24:49.480 alongside the machine processes? 24:49.480 --> 24:51.520 And so that's that culture, 24:51.520 --> 24:53.520 we call it the culture of mission success 24:53.520 --> 24:54.960 at Lockheed Martin, 24:54.960 --> 24:56.720 that really needs to be established. 24:56.720 --> 24:58.120 And it's not something, 24:58.120 --> 25:02.160 it's something that people learn by living in it. 25:02.160 --> 25:05.240 And it's something that has to be promulgated, 25:05.240 --> 25:07.120 and it's done from the highest level. 25:07.120 --> 25:10.160 So I had a company of Lockheed Martin, like Lockheed Martin. 25:10.160 --> 25:12.480 Yeah, and the same as being faced 25:12.480 --> 25:14.000 at certain autonomous vehicle companies 25:14.000 --> 25:15.760 where that culture is not there 25:15.760 --> 25:18.600 because it started mostly by software engineers, 25:18.600 --> 25:20.400 so that's what they're struggling with. 25:21.440 --> 25:25.720 Is there lessons that you think we should learn 25:25.720 --> 25:27.280 as an industry and a society 25:27.280 --> 25:30.240 from the Boeing 737 MAX crashes? 25:30.240 --> 25:34.720 These crashes, obviously, are either tremendous tragedies, 25:34.720 --> 25:37.800 they're tragedies for all of the people, 25:37.800 --> 25:41.240 the crew, the families, the passengers, 25:41.240 --> 25:43.160 the people on the ground involved. 25:44.280 --> 25:49.080 And it's also a huge business and economic setback as well. 25:49.080 --> 25:51.720 I mean, we've seen that it's impacting, essentially, 25:51.720 --> 25:53.840 the trade balance of the US. 25:53.840 --> 25:58.360 So these are important questions. 25:58.360 --> 26:00.200 And these are the kinds of, 26:00.200 --> 26:03.040 we've seen similar kinds of questioning at times. 26:03.040 --> 26:06.000 We go back to the Challenger accident. 26:06.960 --> 26:10.640 And it is, I think, always important to remind ourselves 26:10.640 --> 26:11.960 that humans are fallible, 26:11.960 --> 26:14.040 that the systems we create, 26:14.040 --> 26:16.560 as perfect as we strive to make them, 26:16.560 --> 26:18.960 we can always make them better. 26:18.960 --> 26:21.760 And so another element of that culture of mission success 26:21.760 --> 26:24.960 is really that commitment to continuous improvement. 26:24.960 --> 26:27.480 If there's something that goes wrong, 26:27.480 --> 26:31.160 a real commitment to root cause 26:31.160 --> 26:33.320 and true root cause understanding, 26:33.320 --> 26:35.080 to taking the corrective actions 26:35.080 --> 26:38.880 and to making the future systems better. 26:38.880 --> 26:43.880 And certainly, we strive for no accidents. 26:45.160 --> 26:47.760 And if you look at the record 26:47.760 --> 26:50.440 of the commercial airline industry as a whole 26:50.440 --> 26:53.360 and the commercial aircraft industry as a whole, 26:53.360 --> 26:57.640 there's a very nice decaying exponential 26:57.640 --> 27:01.680 to years now where we have no commercial aircraft accidents 27:01.680 --> 27:04.760 at all, our fatal accidents at all. 27:04.760 --> 27:08.360 So that didn't happen by accident. 27:08.360 --> 27:11.640 It was through the regulatory agencies, FAA, 27:11.640 --> 27:14.400 the airframe manufacturers, 27:14.400 --> 27:18.680 really working on a system to identify root causes 27:18.680 --> 27:20.520 and drive them out. 27:20.520 --> 27:23.880 So maybe we can take a step back 27:23.880 --> 27:25.520 and many people are familiar, 27:25.520 --> 27:28.840 but Lockheed Martin broadly, 27:28.840 --> 27:31.240 what kind of categories of systems 27:32.120 --> 27:34.280 are you involved in building? 27:34.280 --> 27:36.240 You know, Lockheed Martin, we think of ourselves 27:36.240 --> 27:39.880 as a company that solves hard mission problems. 27:39.880 --> 27:42.080 And the output of that might be an airplane 27:42.080 --> 27:44.640 or a spacecraft or a helicopter or radar 27:44.640 --> 27:45.680 or something like that. 27:45.680 --> 27:47.920 But ultimately we're driven by these, 27:47.920 --> 27:50.240 you know, like what is our customer? 27:50.240 --> 27:52.680 What is that mission that they need to achieve? 27:52.680 --> 27:55.480 And so that's what drove the SR 71, right? 27:55.480 --> 27:57.840 How do you get pictures of a place 27:59.000 --> 28:02.160 where you've got sophisticated air defense systems 28:02.160 --> 28:05.440 that are capable of handling any aircraft 28:05.440 --> 28:07.440 that was out there at the time, right? 28:07.440 --> 28:10.440 So that, you know, that's what you'll do to an SR 71. 28:10.440 --> 28:12.480 Build a nice flying camera. 28:12.480 --> 28:16.040 Exactly, and make sure it gets out and it gets back, right? 28:16.040 --> 28:18.280 And that led ultimately to really the start 28:18.280 --> 28:20.440 of the space program in the US as well. 28:22.200 --> 28:24.920 So now take a step back to Lockheed Martin of today. 28:24.920 --> 28:29.040 And we are, you know, on the order of 105 years old now, 28:29.040 --> 28:32.400 between Lockheed and Martin, the two big heritage companies. 28:32.400 --> 28:34.600 Of course, we're made up of a whole bunch of other companies 28:34.600 --> 28:36.120 that came in as well. 28:36.120 --> 28:39.800 General Dynamics, you know, kind of go down the list. 28:39.800 --> 28:42.600 Today we're, you can think of us 28:42.600 --> 28:44.840 in this space of solving mission problems. 28:44.840 --> 28:48.440 So obviously on the aircraft side, 28:48.440 --> 28:53.000 tactical aircraft, building the most advanced fighter aircraft 28:53.000 --> 28:55.120 that the world has ever seen, you know, 28:55.120 --> 28:57.880 we're up to now several hundred of those delivered, 28:57.880 --> 29:00.080 building almost a hundred a year. 29:00.080 --> 29:04.120 And of course, working on the things that come after that. 29:04.120 --> 29:07.720 On the space side, we are engaged in pretty much 29:07.720 --> 29:12.720 every venue of space utilization and exploration 29:13.160 --> 29:14.280 you can imagine. 29:14.280 --> 29:18.040 So I mentioned things like navigation timing, GPS, 29:18.040 --> 29:22.400 communication satellites, missile warning satellites. 29:22.400 --> 29:24.760 We've built commercial surveillance satellites. 29:24.760 --> 29:27.640 We've built commercial communication satellites. 29:27.640 --> 29:29.200 We do civil space. 29:29.200 --> 29:32.320 So everything from human exploration 29:32.320 --> 29:35.000 to the robotic exploration of the outer planets. 29:36.000 --> 29:39.080 And keep going on the space front. 29:39.080 --> 29:40.640 But I don't, you know, a couple of other areas 29:40.640 --> 29:44.520 I'd like to put out, we're heavily engaged 29:44.520 --> 29:47.360 in building critical defensive systems. 29:47.360 --> 29:51.640 And so a couple that I'll mention, the Aegis Combat System, 29:51.640 --> 29:55.680 this is basically the integrated air and missile defense system 29:55.680 --> 29:58.640 for the US and allied fleets. 29:58.640 --> 30:02.840 And so protects, you know, carrier strike groups, 30:02.840 --> 30:06.560 for example, from incoming ballistic missile threats, 30:06.560 --> 30:08.480 aircraft threats, cruise missile threats, 30:08.480 --> 30:10.080 and kind of go down the list. 30:10.080 --> 30:13.240 So the carriers, the fleet itself 30:13.240 --> 30:15.280 is the thing that is being protected. 30:15.280 --> 30:18.120 The carriers aren't serving as a protection 30:18.120 --> 30:19.360 for something else. 30:19.360 --> 30:21.840 Well, that's a little bit of a different application. 30:21.840 --> 30:24.360 We've actually built the version called Aegis Assure, 30:24.360 --> 30:27.960 which is now deployed in a couple of places around the world. 30:27.960 --> 30:31.000 So that same technology, I mean, basically, 30:31.000 --> 30:35.360 can be used to protect either an ocean going fleet 30:35.360 --> 30:37.840 or a land based activity. 30:37.840 --> 30:39.680 Another one, the THAAD program. 30:41.040 --> 30:44.720 So THAAD, this is the Theater High Altitude Area Defense. 30:44.720 --> 30:49.120 This is to protect, you know, relatively broad areas 30:49.120 --> 30:53.400 against sophisticated ballistic missile threats. 30:53.400 --> 30:57.760 And so now, you know, it's deployed 30:57.760 --> 30:59.880 with a lot of US capabilities. 30:59.880 --> 31:01.960 And now we have international customers 31:01.960 --> 31:04.520 that are looking to buy that capability as well. 31:04.520 --> 31:07.000 And so these are systems that defend, 31:07.000 --> 31:10.080 not just defend militaries and military capabilities, 31:10.080 --> 31:12.400 but defend population areas. 31:12.400 --> 31:16.320 And we saw, you know, maybe the first public use of these 31:16.320 --> 31:20.200 back in the first Gulf War with the Patriot systems. 31:21.200 --> 31:23.120 And these are the kinds of things 31:23.120 --> 31:25.960 that Lockheed Martin delivers. 31:25.960 --> 31:27.960 And there's a lot of stuff that goes with it. 31:27.960 --> 31:31.520 So think about the radar systems and the sensing systems 31:31.520 --> 31:35.200 that cue these, the command and control systems 31:35.200 --> 31:39.560 that decide how you pair a weapon against an incoming threat. 31:39.560 --> 31:42.600 And then all the human and machine interfaces 31:42.600 --> 31:45.400 to make sure that they can be operated successfully 31:45.400 --> 31:48.040 in very strenuous environments. 31:48.040 --> 31:51.840 Yeah, there's some incredible engineering 31:51.840 --> 31:54.440 that I'd ever find, like you said. 31:54.440 --> 32:00.440 So maybe if we just take a look at Lockheed history broadly, 32:00.720 --> 32:02.960 maybe even looking at Skunk Works. 32:04.200 --> 32:07.240 What are the biggest, most impressive, 32:07.240 --> 32:11.160 biggest, most impressive milestones of innovation? 32:11.160 --> 32:13.560 So if you look at stealth, 32:13.560 --> 32:15.200 I would have called you crazy if you said 32:15.200 --> 32:16.760 that's possible at the time. 32:17.880 --> 32:21.280 And supersonic and hypersonic. 32:21.280 --> 32:24.000 So traveling at, first of all, 32:24.000 --> 32:27.280 traveling at the speed of sound is pretty damn fast. 32:27.280 --> 32:29.680 And supersonic and hypersonic, 32:29.680 --> 32:32.160 three, four, five times the speed of sound, 32:32.160 --> 32:34.360 that seems, I would also call you crazy 32:34.360 --> 32:35.760 if you say you can do that. 32:35.760 --> 32:38.080 So can you tell me how it's possible 32:38.080 --> 32:39.560 to do these kinds of things? 32:39.560 --> 32:41.080 And is there other milestones 32:41.080 --> 32:45.040 and innovation that's going on that you can talk about? 32:45.040 --> 32:49.000 Yeah, well, let me start on the Skunk Works saga. 32:49.000 --> 32:51.520 And you kind of alluded to it in the beginning. 32:51.520 --> 32:54.920 I mean, Skunk Works is as much an idea as a place. 32:54.920 --> 32:59.520 And so it's driven really by Kelly Johnson's 14 principles. 32:59.520 --> 33:02.000 And I'm not gonna list all 14 of them off, 33:02.000 --> 33:04.480 but the idea, and this I'm sure will resonate 33:04.480 --> 33:06.240 with any engineer who's worked 33:06.240 --> 33:09.440 on a highly motivated small team before. 33:09.440 --> 33:13.400 The idea that if you can essentially have a small team 33:13.400 --> 33:17.280 of very capable people who wanna work 33:17.280 --> 33:20.520 on really hard problems, you can do almost anything. 33:20.520 --> 33:23.280 Especially if you kind of shield them 33:23.280 --> 33:26.680 from bureaucratic influences, 33:26.680 --> 33:30.680 if you create very tight relationships with your customer 33:30.680 --> 33:34.360 so that you have that team and shared vision 33:34.360 --> 33:38.280 with the customer, those are the kinds of things 33:38.280 --> 33:43.040 that enable the Skunk Works to do these incredible things. 33:43.040 --> 33:46.360 And we listed off a number that you brought up stealth. 33:46.360 --> 33:50.520 And I mean, this whole, I wish I could have seen Ben Rich 33:50.520 --> 33:53.880 with a ball bearing rolling across the desk 33:53.880 --> 33:55.880 to a general officer and saying, 33:55.880 --> 33:58.400 would you like to have an aircraft 33:58.400 --> 34:01.800 that has the radar cross section of this ball bearing? 34:01.800 --> 34:04.280 Probably one of the least expensive 34:04.280 --> 34:06.320 and most effective marketing campaigns 34:06.320 --> 34:08.440 in the history of the industry. 34:08.440 --> 34:10.680 So just for people not familiar, 34:10.680 --> 34:12.800 I mean, the way you detect aircraft, 34:12.800 --> 34:14.680 so I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of ways, 34:14.680 --> 34:17.360 but radar for the longest time, 34:17.360 --> 34:20.680 there's a big blob that appears in the radar. 34:20.680 --> 34:22.360 How do you make a plane disappear 34:22.360 --> 34:26.200 so it looks as big as a ball bearing? 34:26.200 --> 34:28.040 What's involved in technology wise there? 34:28.040 --> 34:32.480 What's broadly sort of the stuff you can speak about? 34:32.480 --> 34:34.680 I'll stick to what's in Ben Rich's book, 34:34.680 --> 34:39.000 but obviously the geometry of how radar gets reflected 34:39.000 --> 34:42.400 and the kinds of materials that either reflect or absorb 34:42.400 --> 34:46.480 are kind of the couple of the critical elements there. 34:46.480 --> 34:48.080 I mean, it's a cat and mouse game, right? 34:48.080 --> 34:52.960 I mean, radars get better, stealth capabilities get better. 34:52.960 --> 34:57.680 And so it's a really game of continuous improvement 34:57.680 --> 34:58.520 and innovation there. 34:58.520 --> 35:00.160 I'll leave it at that. 35:00.160 --> 35:04.720 Yeah, so the idea that something is essentially invisible 35:04.720 --> 35:06.440 is quite fascinating. 35:06.440 --> 35:08.920 But the other one is flying fast. 35:08.920 --> 35:13.240 So speed of sound is 750, 60 miles an hour. 35:15.360 --> 35:18.480 So supersonic is three, Mach three, 35:18.480 --> 35:19.320 something like that. 35:19.320 --> 35:21.640 Yeah, we talk about the supersonic obviously 35:21.640 --> 35:24.120 and we kind of talk about that as that realm 35:24.120 --> 35:26.720 from Mach one up through about Mach five. 35:26.720 --> 35:31.720 And then hypersonic, so high supersonic speeds 35:32.040 --> 35:34.800 would be past Mach five. 35:34.800 --> 35:37.160 And you got to remember Lockheed, Martin, 35:37.160 --> 35:39.080 and actually other companies have been involved 35:39.080 --> 35:42.240 in hypersonic development since the late 60s. 35:42.240 --> 35:45.360 You think of everything from the X 15 35:45.360 --> 35:48.040 to the space shuttle as examples of that. 35:50.080 --> 35:54.360 I think the difference now is if you look around the world, 35:54.360 --> 35:57.360 particularly the threat environment that we're in today, 35:57.360 --> 36:02.360 you're starting to see publicly folks like the Russians 36:02.520 --> 36:07.520 and the Chinese saying they have hypersonic weapons 36:07.560 --> 36:12.560 capability that could threaten US and allied capabilities. 36:14.280 --> 36:18.840 And also basically the claims are these could get around 36:18.840 --> 36:21.840 defensive systems that are out there today. 36:21.840 --> 36:24.520 And so there's a real sense of urgency. 36:24.520 --> 36:28.160 You hear it from folks like the undersecretary of defense 36:28.160 --> 36:30.800 for research and engineering, Dr. Mike Griffin 36:30.800 --> 36:32.800 and others in the Department of Defense 36:32.800 --> 36:37.200 that hypersonics is something that's really important 36:37.200 --> 36:41.040 to the nation in terms of both parity 36:41.040 --> 36:43.120 but also defensive capabilities. 36:43.120 --> 36:46.200 And so that's something that we're pleased. 36:46.200 --> 36:49.240 It's something Lockheed, Martin's had a heritage in. 36:49.240 --> 36:53.800 We've invested R&D dollars on our side for many years. 36:53.800 --> 36:56.240 And we have a number of things going on 36:56.240 --> 36:59.760 with various US government customers in that field today 36:59.760 --> 37:01.520 that we're very excited about. 37:01.520 --> 37:04.520 So I would anticipate we'll be hearing more about that 37:04.520 --> 37:06.240 in the future from our customers. 37:06.240 --> 37:08.880 And I've actually haven't read much about this. 37:08.880 --> 37:10.840 Probably you can't talk about much of it at all, 37:10.840 --> 37:12.760 but on the defensive side, 37:12.760 --> 37:15.600 it's a fascinating problem of perception 37:15.600 --> 37:18.360 of trying to detect things that are really hard to see. 37:18.360 --> 37:21.560 Can you comment on how hard that problem is 37:21.560 --> 37:26.560 and how hard is it to stay ahead, 37:26.680 --> 37:29.200 even if we're going back a few decades, 37:29.200 --> 37:30.480 stay ahead of the competition? 37:30.480 --> 37:33.680 Well, maybe I, again, you gotta think of these 37:33.680 --> 37:36.480 as ongoing capability development. 37:36.480 --> 37:40.720 And so think back to the early phase of missile defense. 37:40.720 --> 37:44.120 So this would be in the 80s, the SDI program. 37:44.120 --> 37:46.440 And in that timeframe, we proved, 37:46.440 --> 37:48.920 and Lockheed Martin proved that you could hit a bullet 37:48.920 --> 37:50.320 with a bullet, essentially, 37:50.320 --> 37:53.240 and which is something that had never been done before 37:53.240 --> 37:56.200 to take out an incoming ballistic missile. 37:56.200 --> 37:58.760 And so that's led to these incredible 37:58.760 --> 38:01.880 hit to kill kinds of capabilities, PAC 3. 38:03.160 --> 38:07.040 That's the Patriot Advanced Capability Model 3 38:07.040 --> 38:08.160 that Lockheed Martin builds, 38:08.160 --> 38:10.740 the THAAD system that I talked about. 38:12.120 --> 38:13.880 So now hypersonics, 38:13.880 --> 38:17.560 you know, they're different from ballistic systems. 38:17.560 --> 38:19.520 And so we gotta take the next step 38:19.520 --> 38:21.160 in defensive capability. 38:22.680 --> 38:25.520 I can, I'll leave that there, but I can only imagine. 38:26.520 --> 38:29.160 Now, let me just comment, sort of as an engineer, 38:29.160 --> 38:33.440 it's sad to know that so much that Lockheed has done 38:33.440 --> 38:37.640 in the past is classified, 38:37.640 --> 38:40.960 or today, you know, and it's shrouded in secrecy. 38:40.960 --> 38:44.720 It has to be by the nature of the application. 38:46.200 --> 38:49.200 So like what I do, so what we do here at MIT, 38:49.200 --> 38:53.920 we'd like to inspire young engineers, young scientists, 38:53.920 --> 38:56.480 and yet in the Lockheed case, 38:56.480 --> 38:59.720 some of that engineer has to stay quiet. 38:59.720 --> 39:00.920 How do you think about that? 39:00.920 --> 39:02.120 How does that make you feel? 39:02.120 --> 39:07.120 Is there a future where more can be shown, 39:07.120 --> 39:10.600 or is it just the nature, the nature of this world 39:10.600 --> 39:12.760 that it has to remain secret? 39:12.760 --> 39:14.920 It's a good question. 39:14.920 --> 39:19.920 I think the public can see enough of, 39:21.160 --> 39:24.960 including students who may be in grade school, 39:24.960 --> 39:27.160 high school, college today, 39:28.160 --> 39:31.760 to understand the kinds of really hard problems 39:31.760 --> 39:33.360 that we work on. 39:33.360 --> 39:36.160 And I mean, look at the F35, right? 39:36.160 --> 39:40.640 And obviously a lot of the detailed performance levels 39:40.640 --> 39:43.160 are sensitive and controlled. 39:43.160 --> 39:48.160 But we can talk about what an incredible aircraft this is. 39:48.160 --> 39:50.480 It's a supersonic, super cruise kind of a fighter, 39:50.480 --> 39:54.560 a stealth capabilities. 39:54.560 --> 39:57.920 It's a flying information system in the sky 39:57.920 --> 40:01.480 with data fusion, sensor fusion capabilities 40:01.480 --> 40:03.200 that have never been seen before. 40:03.200 --> 40:05.280 So these are the kinds of things that I believe, 40:05.280 --> 40:08.000 these are the kinds of things that got me excited 40:08.000 --> 40:08.960 when I was a student. 40:08.960 --> 40:12.240 I think these still inspire students today. 40:12.240 --> 40:17.040 And the other thing, I mean, people are inspired by space. 40:17.040 --> 40:20.200 People are inspired by aircraft. 40:22.000 --> 40:25.360 Our employees are also inspired by that sense of mission. 40:25.360 --> 40:27.560 And I'll just give you an example. 40:27.560 --> 40:32.640 I had the privilege to work and lead our GPS programs 40:32.640 --> 40:34.400 for some time. 40:34.400 --> 40:37.800 And that was a case where I actually 40:37.800 --> 40:41.040 worked on a program that touches billions of people 40:41.040 --> 40:41.680 every day. 40:41.680 --> 40:43.480 And so when I said I worked on GPS, 40:43.480 --> 40:45.240 everybody knew what I was talking about, 40:45.240 --> 40:47.800 even though they didn't maybe appreciate the technical 40:47.800 --> 40:51.320 challenges that went into that. 40:51.320 --> 40:54.960 But I'll tell you, I got a briefing one time 40:54.960 --> 40:57.400 from a major in the Air Force. 40:57.400 --> 41:01.640 And he said, I go by call sign GIMP. 41:01.640 --> 41:04.320 GPS is my passion. 41:04.320 --> 41:05.720 I love GPS. 41:05.720 --> 41:08.960 And he was involved in the operational test of the system. 41:08.960 --> 41:11.680 He said, I was out in Iraq. 41:11.680 --> 41:17.280 And I was on a helicopter, Black Hawk helicopter. 41:17.280 --> 41:21.440 And I was bringing back a sergeant and a handful of troops 41:21.440 --> 41:23.800 from a deployed location. 41:23.800 --> 41:26.600 And he said, my job is GPS. 41:26.600 --> 41:27.800 So I asked that sergeant. 41:27.800 --> 41:31.360 And he's beaten down and half asleep. 41:31.360 --> 41:34.080 And I said, what do you think about GPS? 41:34.080 --> 41:35.120 And he brightened up. 41:35.120 --> 41:35.920 His eyes lit up. 41:35.920 --> 41:39.240 And he said, well, GPS, that brings me and my troops home 41:39.240 --> 41:39.960 every day. 41:39.960 --> 41:41.080 I love GPS. 41:41.080 --> 41:43.760 And that's the kind of story where it's like, OK, 41:43.760 --> 41:46.440 I'm really making a difference here in the kind of work. 41:46.440 --> 41:48.920 So that mission piece is really important. 41:48.920 --> 41:51.720 The last thing I'll say is, and this 41:51.720 --> 41:54.840 gets to some of these questions around advanced 41:54.840 --> 41:59.560 technologies, they're not just airplanes and spacecraft 41:59.560 --> 41:59.960 anymore. 41:59.960 --> 42:02.760 For people who are excited about advanced software 42:02.760 --> 42:06.040 capabilities, about AI, about bringing machine learning, 42:06.040 --> 42:10.120 these are the things that we're doing to exponentially 42:10.120 --> 42:13.120 increase the mission capabilities that 42:13.120 --> 42:14.280 go on those platforms. 42:14.280 --> 42:15.920 And those are the kinds of things I think 42:15.920 --> 42:18.400 are more and more visible to the public. 42:18.400 --> 42:21.440 Yeah, I think autonomy, especially in flight, 42:21.440 --> 42:23.880 is super exciting. 42:23.880 --> 42:28.040 Do you see a day, here we go, back into philosophy, 42:28.040 --> 42:35.120 a future when most fighter jets will be highly autonomous 42:35.120 --> 42:37.720 to a degree where a human doesn't need 42:37.720 --> 42:40.640 to be in the cockpit in almost all cases? 42:40.640 --> 42:43.520 Well, I mean, that's a world that to a certain extent, 42:43.520 --> 42:44.240 we're in today. 42:44.240 --> 42:47.800 Now, these are remotely piloted aircraft, to be sure. 42:47.800 --> 42:53.920 But we have hundreds of thousands of flight hours a year now 42:53.920 --> 42:56.240 in remotely piloted aircraft. 42:56.240 --> 43:00.720 And then if you take the F 35, I mean, 43:00.720 --> 43:04.640 there are huge layers, I guess, in levels of autonomy 43:04.640 --> 43:10.040 built into that aircraft so that the pilot is essentially 43:10.040 --> 43:13.280 more of a mission manager rather than doing 43:13.280 --> 43:16.560 the data, the second to second elements of flying 43:16.560 --> 43:17.160 the aircraft. 43:17.160 --> 43:19.920 So in some ways, it's the easiest aircraft in the world 43:19.920 --> 43:20.840 to fly. 43:20.840 --> 43:22.480 I'm kind of a funny story on that. 43:22.480 --> 43:27.280 So I don't know if you know how aircraft carrier landings work. 43:27.280 --> 43:30.760 But basically, there's what's called a tail hook, 43:30.760 --> 43:33.760 and it catches wires on the deck of the carrier. 43:33.760 --> 43:39.360 And that's what brings the aircraft to a screeching halt. 43:39.360 --> 43:41.800 And there's typically three of these wires. 43:41.800 --> 43:43.480 So if you miss the first, the second one, 43:43.480 --> 43:45.920 you catch the next one, right? 43:45.920 --> 43:49.280 And we got a little criticism. 43:49.280 --> 43:50.880 I don't know how true this story is, 43:50.880 --> 43:52.360 but we got a little criticism. 43:52.360 --> 43:56.200 The F 35 is so perfect, it always gets the second wires. 43:56.200 --> 44:00.880 We're wearing out the wire because it always hits that one. 44:00.880 --> 44:04.600 But that's the kind of autonomy that just makes these, 44:04.600 --> 44:06.880 essentially up levels what the human is doing 44:06.880 --> 44:08.520 to more of that mission manager. 44:08.520 --> 44:12.040 So much of that landing by the F 35 is autonomous. 44:12.040 --> 44:14.000 Well, it's just the control systems 44:14.000 --> 44:17.960 are such that you really have dialed out the variability 44:17.960 --> 44:19.720 that comes with all the environmental conditions. 44:19.720 --> 44:20.800 You're wearing it out. 44:20.800 --> 44:24.320 So my point is, to a certain extent, 44:24.320 --> 44:27.320 that world is here today. 44:27.320 --> 44:30.000 Do I think that we're going to see a day anytime soon 44:30.000 --> 44:31.840 when there are no humans in the cockpit? 44:31.840 --> 44:33.320 I don't believe that. 44:33.320 --> 44:36.680 But I do think we're going to see much more human machine 44:36.680 --> 44:38.760 teaming, and we're going to see that much more 44:38.760 --> 44:40.480 at the tactical edge. 44:40.480 --> 44:41.480 And we did a demo. 44:41.480 --> 44:43.760 You asked about what the Skunkworks is doing these days. 44:43.760 --> 44:46.200 And so this is something I can talk about. 44:46.200 --> 44:51.200 But we did a demo with the Air Force Research Laboratory. 44:51.200 --> 44:52.600 We called it HAV Raider. 44:52.600 --> 44:59.760 And so using an F 16 as an autonomous wingman, 44:59.760 --> 45:02.480 and we demonstrated all kinds of maneuvers 45:02.480 --> 45:06.280 and various mission scenarios with the autonomous F 16 45:06.280 --> 45:09.640 being that so called loyal or trusted wingman. 45:09.640 --> 45:11.320 And so those are the kinds of things 45:11.320 --> 45:15.400 that we've shown what is possible now, 45:15.400 --> 45:18.960 given that you've upleveled that pilot to be a mission manager. 45:18.960 --> 45:22.280 Now they can control multiple other aircraft, 45:22.280 --> 45:25.000 they can almost as extensions of your own aircraft 45:25.000 --> 45:27.160 flying alongside with you. 45:27.160 --> 45:30.240 So that's another example of how this is really 45:30.240 --> 45:31.560 coming to fruition. 45:31.560 --> 45:35.120 And then I mentioned the landings, 45:35.120 --> 45:38.080 but think about just the implications 45:38.080 --> 45:39.800 for humans and flight safety. 45:39.800 --> 45:41.800 And this goes a little bit back to the discussion 45:41.800 --> 45:45.720 we were having about how do you continuously improve 45:45.720 --> 45:48.920 the level of safety through automation 45:48.920 --> 45:52.120 while working through the complexities that automation 45:52.120 --> 45:53.320 introduces. 45:53.320 --> 45:55.520 So one of the challenges that you have in high performance 45:55.520 --> 45:57.480 fighter aircraft is what's called Glock. 45:57.480 --> 45:59.960 So this is G induced loss of consciousness. 45:59.960 --> 46:02.800 So you pull 9Gs, you're wearing a pressure suit, 46:02.800 --> 46:05.760 that's not enough to keep the blood going to your brain, 46:05.760 --> 46:07.760 you black out. 46:07.760 --> 46:12.320 And of course, that's bad if you happen to be flying low, 46:12.320 --> 46:17.520 near the deck, and in an obstacle or terrain environment. 46:17.520 --> 46:22.400 And so we developed a system in our aeronautics division 46:22.400 --> 46:26.040 called Auto GCAS, so Autonomous Ground Collision Avoidance 46:26.040 --> 46:27.400 System. 46:27.400 --> 46:30.080 And we built that into the F16. 46:30.080 --> 46:33.000 It's actually saved seven aircraft, eight pilots already. 46:33.000 --> 46:35.840 And the relatively short time it's been deployed, 46:35.840 --> 46:39.320 it was so successful that the Air Force said, 46:39.320 --> 46:41.480 hey, we need to have this in the F35 right away. 46:41.480 --> 46:46.400 So we've actually done testing of that now in the F35. 46:46.400 --> 46:50.200 And we've also integrated an autonomous air collision 46:50.200 --> 46:51.000 avoidance system. 46:51.000 --> 46:53.000 So I think the air to air problem. 46:53.000 --> 46:56.000 So now it's the integrated collision avoidance system. 46:56.000 --> 46:58.760 But these are the kinds of capabilities. 46:58.760 --> 46:59.920 I wouldn't call them AI. 46:59.920 --> 47:04.040 I mean, they're very sophisticated models 47:04.040 --> 47:08.080 of the aircraft's dynamics coupled with the terrain models 47:08.080 --> 47:12.240 to be able to predict when essentially the pilot is 47:12.240 --> 47:14.840 doing something that is going to take the aircraft into, 47:14.840 --> 47:18.120 or the pilot's not doing something in this case. 47:18.120 --> 47:23.280 But it just gives you an example of how autonomy can be really 47:23.280 --> 47:25.960 a lifesaver in today's world. 47:25.960 --> 47:29.160 It's like an autonomous automated emergency 47:29.160 --> 47:30.520 braking in cars. 47:30.520 --> 47:35.080 But is there any exploration of perception of, for example, 47:35.080 --> 47:39.640 detecting a Glock that the pilot is out, 47:39.640 --> 47:42.960 so as opposed to perceiving the external environment 47:42.960 --> 47:46.000 to infer that the pilot is out, but actually perceiving 47:46.000 --> 47:47.320 the pilot directly? 47:47.320 --> 47:48.880 Yeah, this is one of those cases where 47:48.880 --> 47:52.040 you'd like to not take action if you think the pilot's there. 47:52.040 --> 47:54.160 And it's almost like systems that try 47:54.160 --> 47:56.880 to detect if a driver is falling asleep on the road, 47:56.880 --> 48:00.000 right, with limited success. 48:00.000 --> 48:03.400 So I mean, this is what I call the system of last resort, 48:03.400 --> 48:06.880 right, where if the aircraft has determined 48:06.880 --> 48:10.880 that it's going into the terrain, get it out of there. 48:10.880 --> 48:12.960 And this is not something that we're just 48:12.960 --> 48:15.680 doing in the aircraft world. 48:15.680 --> 48:18.600 And I wanted to highlight, we have a technology we call Matrix, 48:18.600 --> 48:21.960 but this is developed at Sikorsky Innovations. 48:21.960 --> 48:26.080 The whole idea there is what we call optimal piloting, 48:26.080 --> 48:30.560 so not optional piloting or unpiloted, 48:30.560 --> 48:32.240 but optimal piloting. 48:32.240 --> 48:35.880 So an FAA certified system, so you 48:35.880 --> 48:37.400 have a high degree of confidence. 48:37.400 --> 48:40.560 It's generally pretty deterministic, 48:40.560 --> 48:43.880 so we know that it'll do in different situations, 48:43.880 --> 48:49.240 but effectively be able to fly a mission with two pilots, 48:49.240 --> 48:51.560 one pilot, no pilots. 48:51.560 --> 48:56.720 And you can think of it almost as like a dial of the level 48:56.720 --> 48:59.480 of autonomy that you want, so it's 48:59.480 --> 49:01.320 running in the background at all times 49:01.320 --> 49:04.040 and able to pick up tasks, whether it's 49:04.040 --> 49:10.160 sort of autopilot kinds of tasks or more sophisticated path 49:10.160 --> 49:12.040 planning kinds of activities. 49:12.040 --> 49:15.200 To be able to do things like, for example, land on an oil 49:15.200 --> 49:19.480 rig in the North Sea in bad weather, zero, zero conditions. 49:19.480 --> 49:20.880 And you can imagine, of course, there's 49:20.880 --> 49:24.560 a lot of military utility to capability like that. 49:24.560 --> 49:26.480 You could have an aircraft that you 49:26.480 --> 49:28.280 want to send out for a crewed mission, 49:28.280 --> 49:31.880 but then at night, if you want to use it to deliver supplies 49:31.880 --> 49:35.600 in an unmanned mode, that could be done as well. 49:35.600 --> 49:39.960 And so there's clear advantages there. 49:39.960 --> 49:41.840 But think about on the commercial side, 49:41.840 --> 49:44.560 if you're an aircraft taken, you're 49:44.560 --> 49:46.080 going to fly out to this oil rig. 49:46.080 --> 49:48.000 If you get out there and you can't land, 49:48.000 --> 49:51.200 then you've got to bring all those people back, reschedule 49:51.200 --> 49:53.080 another flight, pay the overtime for the crew 49:53.080 --> 49:55.280 that you just brought back because they didn't get what 49:55.280 --> 49:57.240 they were going to pay for the overtime for the folks that 49:57.240 --> 49:58.640 are out there on the oil rig. 49:58.640 --> 50:00.680 This is real economic. 50:00.680 --> 50:03.480 These are dollars and cents kinds of advantages 50:03.480 --> 50:06.000 that we're bringing in the commercial world as well. 50:06.000 --> 50:09.120 So this is a difficult question from the AI space 50:09.120 --> 50:11.600 that I would love it if we were able to comment. 50:11.600 --> 50:15.360 So a lot of this autonomy in AI you've mentioned just now 50:15.360 --> 50:17.040 has this empowering effect. 50:17.040 --> 50:20.400 One is the last resort, it keeps you safe. 50:20.400 --> 50:25.200 The other is there's with the teaming and in general, 50:25.200 --> 50:29.120 assistive AI. 50:29.120 --> 50:33.160 And I think there's always a race. 50:33.160 --> 50:36.960 So the world is full of the world is complex. 50:36.960 --> 50:41.160 It's full of bad actors. 50:41.160 --> 50:43.600 So there's often a race to make sure 50:43.600 --> 50:48.960 that we keep this country safe. 50:48.960 --> 50:52.120 But with AI, there is a concern that it's 50:52.120 --> 50:55.080 a slightly different race. 50:55.080 --> 50:56.760 There's a lot of people in the AI space 50:56.760 --> 50:59.600 that are concerned about the AI arms race. 50:59.600 --> 51:02.280 That as opposed to the United States 51:02.280 --> 51:05.400 becoming having the best technology 51:05.400 --> 51:09.160 and therefore keeping us safe, even we lose ability 51:09.160 --> 51:11.520 to keep control of it. 51:11.520 --> 51:16.800 So the AI arms race getting away from all of us humans. 51:16.800 --> 51:19.440 So do you share this worry? 51:19.440 --> 51:21.080 Do you share this concern when we're 51:21.080 --> 51:23.400 talking about military applications 51:23.400 --> 51:26.520 that too much control and decision making 51:26.520 --> 51:31.640 capabilities giving to software or AI? 51:31.640 --> 51:34.120 Well, I don't see it happening today. 51:34.120 --> 51:38.040 And in fact, this is something from a policy perspective. 51:38.040 --> 51:39.920 It's obviously a very dynamic space. 51:39.920 --> 51:42.800 But the Department of Defense has put quite a bit of thought 51:42.800 --> 51:44.280 into that. 51:44.280 --> 51:46.560 And maybe before talking about the policy, 51:46.560 --> 51:48.920 I'll just talk about some of the why. 51:48.920 --> 51:52.640 And you alluded to it being sort of a complicated and a little 51:52.640 --> 51:54.040 bit scary world out there. 51:54.040 --> 51:57.280 But there's some big things happening today. 51:57.280 --> 52:00.600 You hear a lot of talk now about a return to great powers 52:00.600 --> 52:05.400 competition, particularly around China and Russia with the US. 52:05.400 --> 52:09.400 But there are some other big players out there as well. 52:09.400 --> 52:13.400 And what we've seen is the deployment 52:13.400 --> 52:20.480 of some very, I'd say, concerning new weapons systems, 52:20.480 --> 52:24.520 particularly with Russia and breaching some of the IRBM, 52:24.520 --> 52:26.040 intermediate range ballistic missile 52:26.040 --> 52:29.480 treaties that's been in the news a lot. 52:29.480 --> 52:33.640 The building of islands, artificial islands in the South 52:33.640 --> 52:38.720 China Sea by the Chinese, and then arming those islands. 52:38.720 --> 52:42.880 The annexation of Crimea by Russia, 52:42.880 --> 52:44.800 the invasion of Ukraine. 52:44.800 --> 52:47.160 So there's some pretty scary things. 52:47.160 --> 52:51.640 And then you add on top of that, the North Korean threat has 52:51.640 --> 52:52.960 certainly not gone away. 52:52.960 --> 52:56.680 There's a lot going on in the Middle East with Iran in particular. 52:56.680 --> 53:02.360 And we see this global terrorism threat has not abated, right? 53:02.360 --> 53:06.080 So there are a lot of reasons to look for technology 53:06.080 --> 53:08.160 to assist with those problems, whether it's 53:08.160 --> 53:11.240 AI or other technologies like hypersonage, which 53:11.240 --> 53:13.000 was which we discussed. 53:13.000 --> 53:17.280 So now, let me give just a couple of hypotheticals. 53:17.280 --> 53:22.320 So people react sort of in the second time frame, right? 53:22.320 --> 53:27.760 You're photon hitting your eye to a movement 53:27.760 --> 53:30.600 is on the order of a few tenths of a second 53:30.600 --> 53:34.440 kinds of processing times. 53:34.440 --> 53:38.240 Roughly speaking, computers are operating 53:38.240 --> 53:41.560 in the nanosecond time scale, right? 53:41.560 --> 53:44.640 So just to bring home what that means, 53:44.640 --> 53:50.640 a nanosecond to a second is like a second to 32 years. 53:50.640 --> 53:53.920 So seconds on the battlefield, in that sense, 53:53.920 --> 53:56.600 literally are lifetimes. 53:56.600 --> 54:01.920 And so if you can bring an autonomous or AI enabled 54:01.920 --> 54:05.480 capability that will enable the human to shrink, 54:05.480 --> 54:07.480 maybe you've heard the term the OODA loop. 54:07.480 --> 54:12.120 So this whole idea that a typical battlefield decision 54:12.120 --> 54:15.800 is characterized by observe. 54:15.800 --> 54:19.040 So information comes in, orient. 54:19.040 --> 54:21.240 What does that mean in the context? 54:21.240 --> 54:23.040 Decide, what do I do about it? 54:23.040 --> 54:25.160 And then act, take that action. 54:25.160 --> 54:27.320 If you can use these capabilities 54:27.320 --> 54:30.400 to compress that OODA loop to stay 54:30.400 --> 54:32.200 inside what your adversary is doing, 54:32.200 --> 54:37.640 that's an incredible, powerful force on the battlefield. 54:37.640 --> 54:39.120 That's a really nice way to put it, 54:39.120 --> 54:41.680 that the role of AI in computing in general 54:41.680 --> 54:46.000 has a lot to benefit from just decreasing from 32 years 54:46.000 --> 54:49.680 to one second, as opposed to on the scale of seconds 54:49.680 --> 54:51.480 and minutes and hours making decisions 54:51.480 --> 54:53.400 that humans are better at making. 54:53.400 --> 54:54.960 And it actually goes the other way, too. 54:54.960 --> 54:57.160 So that's on the short time scale. 54:57.160 --> 55:00.600 So humans kind of work in the one second, two seconds 55:00.600 --> 55:01.520 to eight hours. 55:01.520 --> 55:04.320 After eight hours, you get tired. 55:04.320 --> 55:07.480 You got to go to the bathroom, whatever the case might be. 55:07.480 --> 55:09.720 So there's this whole range of other things. 55:09.720 --> 55:16.560 Think about surveillance and guarding facilities. 55:16.560 --> 55:20.480 Think about moving material, logistics, sustainment. 55:20.480 --> 55:23.280 A lot of these what they call dull, dirty, and dangerous 55:23.280 --> 55:26.160 things that you need to have sustained activity, 55:26.160 --> 55:28.000 but it's sort of beyond the length of time 55:28.000 --> 55:30.920 that a human can practically do as well. 55:30.920 --> 55:34.200 So there's this range of things that 55:34.200 --> 55:39.080 are critical in military and defense applications 55:39.080 --> 55:43.200 that AI and autonomy are particularly well suited to. 55:43.200 --> 55:45.840 Now, the interesting question that you brought up 55:45.840 --> 55:49.840 is, OK, how do you make sure that stays within human control? 55:49.840 --> 55:52.320 So that was the context for the policy. 55:52.320 --> 55:56.160 And so there is a DOD directive called 3,000.09, 55:56.160 --> 55:58.520 because that's the way we name stuff in this world. 56:01.720 --> 56:04.240 And I'd say it's well worth reading. 56:04.240 --> 56:07.240 It's only a couple pages long, but it makes some key points. 56:07.240 --> 56:09.480 And it's really around making sure 56:09.480 --> 56:14.840 that there's human agency and control over use 56:14.840 --> 56:20.240 of semi autonomous and autonomous weapons systems, 56:20.240 --> 56:23.800 making sure that these systems are tested, verified, 56:23.800 --> 56:28.200 and evaluated in realistic, real world type scenarios, 56:28.200 --> 56:29.960 making sure that the people are actually 56:29.960 --> 56:32.440 trained on how to use them, making sure 56:32.440 --> 56:36.160 that the systems have human machine interfaces that 56:36.160 --> 56:39.320 can show what state they're in and what kinds of decisions 56:39.320 --> 56:41.080 they're making, making sure that you 56:41.080 --> 56:45.800 establish doctrine and tactics and techniques and procedures 56:45.800 --> 56:48.240 for the use of these kinds of systems. 56:48.240 --> 56:52.880 And so, and by the way, I mean, none of this is easy, 56:52.880 --> 56:56.480 but I'm just trying to lay kind of the picture of how 56:56.480 --> 56:59.080 the US has said, this is the way we're 56:59.080 --> 57:02.600 going to treat AI and autonomous systems, 57:02.600 --> 57:04.600 that it's not a free for all. 57:04.600 --> 57:08.120 And like there are rules of war and rules of engagement 57:08.120 --> 57:10.600 with other kinds of systems, think chemical weapons, 57:10.600 --> 57:13.080 biological weapons, we need to think 57:13.080 --> 57:15.760 about the same sorts of implications. 57:15.760 --> 57:17.920 And this is something that's really important for Lockheed 57:17.920 --> 57:20.680 Martin, I mean, obviously we are 100% 57:20.680 --> 57:26.400 complying with our customer and the policies and regulations. 57:26.400 --> 57:30.760 But I mean, AI is an incredible enabler, say, 57:30.760 --> 57:32.360 within the walls of Lockheed Martin 57:32.360 --> 57:35.640 in terms of improving production efficiency, 57:35.640 --> 57:38.240 helping engineers doing generative design, 57:38.240 --> 57:42.040 improving logistics, driving down energy costs. 57:42.040 --> 57:44.320 I mean, there's so many applications. 57:44.320 --> 57:47.440 But we're also very interested in some 57:47.440 --> 57:50.000 of the elements of ethical application 57:50.000 --> 57:51.800 within Lockheed Martin. 57:51.800 --> 57:56.720 So we need to make sure that things like privacy is taken care 57:56.720 --> 57:59.240 of, that we do everything we can to drive out 57:59.240 --> 58:03.440 bias in AI enabled kinds of systems, 58:03.440 --> 58:06.280 that we make sure that humans are involved in decisions 58:06.280 --> 58:10.600 that we're not just delegating accountability to algorithms. 58:10.600 --> 58:14.480 And so for us, I talked about culture before, 58:14.480 --> 58:17.840 and it comes back to sort of the Lockheed Martin culture 58:17.840 --> 58:19.200 and our core values. 58:19.200 --> 58:21.680 And so it's pretty simple for us to do what's right, 58:21.680 --> 58:24.200 respect others, perform with excellence. 58:24.200 --> 58:27.880 And now how do we tie that back to the ethical principles 58:27.880 --> 58:31.960 that will govern how AI is used within Lockheed Martin? 58:31.960 --> 58:35.520 And we actually have a world, so you might not know this, 58:35.520 --> 58:37.680 but they're actually awards for ethics programs. 58:37.680 --> 58:41.400 Lockheed Martin's had a recognized ethics program 58:41.400 --> 58:43.600 for many years, and this is one of the things 58:43.600 --> 58:47.760 that our ethics team is working with our engineering team on. 58:47.760 --> 58:51.240 One of the miracles to me, perhaps a layman, 58:51.240 --> 58:53.680 again, I was born in the Soviet Union, 58:53.680 --> 58:58.400 so I have echoes, at least in my family history of World War 58:58.400 --> 59:02.080 II and the Cold War, do you have a sense 59:02.080 --> 59:06.120 of why human civilization has not destroyed itself 59:06.120 --> 59:09.120 through nuclear war, so nuclear deterrence? 59:09.120 --> 59:12.760 And thinking about the future, this technology 59:12.760 --> 59:15.080 of our role to play here, and what 59:15.080 --> 59:20.440 is the long term future of nuclear deterrence look like? 59:20.440 --> 59:25.760 Yeah, this is one of those hard, hard questions. 59:25.760 --> 59:28.960 And I should note that Lockheed Martin is both proud 59:28.960 --> 59:31.480 and privileged to play a part in multiple legs 59:31.480 --> 59:35.880 of our nuclear and strategic deterrent systems 59:35.880 --> 59:41.800 like the Trident submarine launch ballistic missiles. 59:41.800 --> 59:47.320 You talk about, is there still a possibility 59:47.320 --> 59:49.080 that human race could destroy itself? 59:49.080 --> 59:54.520 I'd say that possibility is real, but interestingly, 59:54.520 --> 59:58.600 in some sense, I think the strategic deterrence 59:58.600 --> 1:00:03.400 have prevented the kinds of incredibly destructive world 1:00:03.400 --> 1:00:07.280 wars that we saw in the first half of the 20th century. 1:00:07.280 --> 1:00:10.880 Now, things have gotten more complicated since that time 1:00:10.880 --> 1:00:12.280 and since the Cold War. 1:00:12.280 --> 1:00:16.560 It is more of a multipolar, great powers world today. 1:00:16.560 --> 1:00:19.000 Just to give you an example, back then, 1:00:19.000 --> 1:00:21.840 there were in the Cold War timeframe 1:00:21.840 --> 1:00:24.160 just a handful of nations that had ballistic missile 1:00:24.160 --> 1:00:25.960 capability. 1:00:25.960 --> 1:00:28.200 By last count, and this is a few years old, 1:00:28.200 --> 1:00:31.200 there's over 70 nations today that have that, 1:00:31.200 --> 1:00:38.000 similar kinds of numbers in terms of space based capabilities. 1:00:38.000 --> 1:00:42.520 So the world has gotten more complex and more challenging 1:00:42.520 --> 1:00:46.040 and the threats, I think, have proliferated in ways 1:00:46.040 --> 1:00:49.480 that we didn't expect. 1:00:49.480 --> 1:00:51.920 The nation today is in the middle 1:00:51.920 --> 1:00:55.280 of a recapitalization of our strategic deterrent. 1:00:55.280 --> 1:00:58.680 I look at that as one of the most important things 1:00:58.680 --> 1:01:00.240 that our nation can do. 1:01:00.240 --> 1:01:01.840 What is involved in deterrence? 1:01:01.840 --> 1:01:08.000 Is it being ready to attack? 1:01:08.000 --> 1:01:11.520 Or is it the defensive systems that catch attacks? 1:01:11.520 --> 1:01:13.120 A little bit of both, and so it's 1:01:13.120 --> 1:01:16.600 a complicated game theoretical kind of program. 1:01:16.600 --> 1:01:23.280 But ultimately, we are trying to prevent the use 1:01:23.280 --> 1:01:24.880 of any of these weapons. 1:01:24.880 --> 1:01:28.000 And the theory behind prevention is 1:01:28.000 --> 1:01:33.280 that even if an adversary uses a weapon against you, 1:01:33.280 --> 1:01:37.600 you have the capability to essentially strike back 1:01:37.600 --> 1:01:40.800 and do harm to them that's unacceptable. 1:01:40.800 --> 1:01:44.880 And so that will deter them from making use 1:01:44.880 --> 1:01:48.000 of these weapons systems. 1:01:48.000 --> 1:01:50.760 The deterrence calculus has changed, of course, 1:01:50.760 --> 1:01:56.320 with more nations now having these kinds of weapons. 1:01:56.320 --> 1:01:59.120 But I think from my perspective, it's 1:01:59.120 --> 1:02:05.000 very important to maintain a strategic deterrent. 1:02:05.000 --> 1:02:08.760 You have to have systems that you will know will work 1:02:08.760 --> 1:02:10.920 when they're required to work. 1:02:10.920 --> 1:02:12.640 And you know that they have to be 1:02:12.640 --> 1:02:16.440 adaptable to a variety of different scenarios 1:02:16.440 --> 1:02:17.680 in today's world. 1:02:17.680 --> 1:02:20.320 And so that's what this recapitalization of systems 1:02:20.320 --> 1:02:23.200 that were built over previous decades, 1:02:23.200 --> 1:02:26.640 making sure that they are appropriate not just for today, 1:02:26.640 --> 1:02:29.080 but for the decades to come. 1:02:29.080 --> 1:02:32.160 So the other thing I'd really like to note 1:02:32.160 --> 1:02:40.120 is strategic deterrence has a very different character today. 1:02:40.120 --> 1:02:42.360 We used to think of weapons of mass destruction 1:02:42.360 --> 1:02:45.720 in terms of nuclear, chemical, biological. 1:02:45.720 --> 1:02:48.640 And today we have a cyber threat. 1:02:48.640 --> 1:02:54.320 We've seen examples of the use of cyber weaponry. 1:02:54.320 --> 1:02:58.520 And if you think about the possibilities 1:02:58.520 --> 1:03:03.880 of using cyber capabilities or an adversary attacking the US 1:03:03.880 --> 1:03:07.560 to take out things like critical infrastructure, 1:03:07.560 --> 1:03:12.840 electrical grids, water systems, those 1:03:12.840 --> 1:03:16.280 are scenarios that are strategic in nature 1:03:16.280 --> 1:03:19.040 to the survival of a nation as well. 1:03:19.040 --> 1:03:23.000 So that is the kind of world that we live in today. 1:03:23.000 --> 1:03:26.640 And part of my hope on this is one 1:03:26.640 --> 1:03:30.840 that we can also develop technological systems, 1:03:30.840 --> 1:03:33.640 perhaps enabled by AI and autonomy, 1:03:33.640 --> 1:03:38.600 that will allow us to contain and to fight back 1:03:38.600 --> 1:03:42.840 against these kinds of new threats that were not 1:03:42.840 --> 1:03:46.280 conceived when we first developed our strategic deterrence. 1:03:46.280 --> 1:03:48.360 Yeah, I know that Lockheed is involved in cyber. 1:03:48.360 --> 1:03:52.040 So I saw that you mentioned that. 1:03:52.040 --> 1:03:54.440 It's an incredibly change. 1:03:54.440 --> 1:03:57.360 Nuclear almost seems easier than cyber, 1:03:57.360 --> 1:03:58.680 because there's so many attack. 1:03:58.680 --> 1:04:01.720 There's so many ways that cyber can evolve 1:04:01.720 --> 1:04:03.400 in such an uncertain future. 1:04:03.400 --> 1:04:05.800 But talking about engineering with a mission, 1:04:05.800 --> 1:04:09.680 I mean, in this case, your engineering systems 1:04:09.680 --> 1:04:13.880 that basically save the world. 1:04:13.880 --> 1:04:18.040 Well, like I said, we're privileged to work 1:04:18.040 --> 1:04:20.000 on some very challenging problems 1:04:20.000 --> 1:04:23.360 for very critical customers here in the US 1:04:23.360 --> 1:04:26.920 and with our allies abroad as well. 1:04:26.920 --> 1:04:30.800 Lockheed builds both military and nonmilitary systems. 1:04:30.800 --> 1:04:32.960 And perhaps the future of Lockheed 1:04:32.960 --> 1:04:35.360 may be more in nonmilitary applications 1:04:35.360 --> 1:04:38.320 if you talk about space and beyond. 1:04:38.320 --> 1:04:41.480 I say that as a preface to a difficult question. 1:04:41.480 --> 1:04:46.200 So President Eisenhower in 1961 in his farewell address 1:04:46.200 --> 1:04:49.080 talked about the military industrial complex 1:04:49.080 --> 1:04:52.800 and that it shouldn't grow beyond what is needed. 1:04:52.800 --> 1:04:55.880 So what are your thoughts on those words 1:04:55.880 --> 1:04:58.800 on the military industrial complex, 1:04:58.800 --> 1:05:04.080 on the concern of growth of their developments 1:05:04.080 --> 1:05:07.120 beyond what may be needed? 1:05:07.120 --> 1:05:12.400 That what may be needed is a critical phrase, of course. 1:05:12.400 --> 1:05:14.960 And I think it is worth pointing out, as you noted, 1:05:14.960 --> 1:05:19.360 that Lockheed Martin, we're in a number of commercial businesses 1:05:19.360 --> 1:05:23.960 from energy to space to commercial aircraft. 1:05:23.960 --> 1:05:28.640 And so I wouldn't neglect the importance 1:05:28.640 --> 1:05:32.160 of those parts of our business as well. 1:05:32.160 --> 1:05:34.480 I think the world is dynamic. 1:05:34.480 --> 1:05:38.880 And there was a time, it doesn't seem that long ago to me, 1:05:38.880 --> 1:05:41.840 was I was a graduate student here at MIT 1:05:41.840 --> 1:05:43.320 and we were talking about the peace 1:05:43.320 --> 1:05:45.760 dividend at the end of the Cold War. 1:05:45.760 --> 1:05:49.200 If you look at expenditure on military systems 1:05:49.200 --> 1:05:55.640 as a fraction of GDP, we're far below peak levels of the past. 1:05:55.640 --> 1:05:59.120 And to me, at least, it looks like a time 1:05:59.120 --> 1:06:02.920 where you're seeing global threats changing in a way that 1:06:02.920 --> 1:06:06.920 would warrant relevant investments 1:06:06.920 --> 1:06:10.920 in defensive capabilities. 1:06:10.920 --> 1:06:18.520 The other thing I'd note, for military and defensive systems, 1:06:18.520 --> 1:06:21.440 it's not quite a free market, right? 1:06:21.440 --> 1:06:25.720 We don't sell to people on the street. 1:06:25.720 --> 1:06:29.440 And that warrants a very close partnership 1:06:29.440 --> 1:06:34.280 between, I'd say, the customers and the people that design, 1:06:34.280 --> 1:06:39.200 build, and maintain these systems because 1:06:39.200 --> 1:06:44.920 of the very unique nature, the very difficult requirements, 1:06:44.920 --> 1:06:49.440 the very great importance on safety 1:06:49.440 --> 1:06:54.560 and on operating the way they're intended every time. 1:06:54.560 --> 1:06:57.680 And so that does create, and it's frankly 1:06:57.680 --> 1:06:59.560 one of Lockheed Martin's great strengths 1:06:59.560 --> 1:07:01.920 is that we have this expertise built up 1:07:01.920 --> 1:07:05.440 over many years in partnership with our customers 1:07:05.440 --> 1:07:08.360 to be able to design and build these systems that 1:07:08.360 --> 1:07:11.600 meet these very unique mission needs. 1:07:11.600 --> 1:07:14.400 Yeah, because building those systems very costly, 1:07:14.400 --> 1:07:16.120 there's very little room for mistake. 1:07:16.120 --> 1:07:19.000 I mean, it's just Ben Rich's book and so on 1:07:19.000 --> 1:07:20.360 just tells the story. 1:07:20.360 --> 1:07:22.440 It's nowhere I can just reading it. 1:07:22.440 --> 1:07:24.400 If you're an engineer, it reads like a thriller. 1:07:24.400 --> 1:07:30.680 OK, let's go back to space for a second. 1:07:30.680 --> 1:07:33.080 I'm always happy to go back to space. 1:07:33.080 --> 1:07:38.320 So a few quick, maybe out there, maybe fun questions, 1:07:38.320 --> 1:07:40.520 maybe a little provocative. 1:07:40.520 --> 1:07:46.560 What are your thoughts on the efforts of the new folks, 1:07:46.560 --> 1:07:48.840 SpaceX and Elon Musk? 1:07:48.840 --> 1:07:50.880 What are your thoughts about what Elon is doing? 1:07:50.880 --> 1:07:55.320 Do you see him as competition, do you enjoy competition? 1:07:55.320 --> 1:07:56.440 What are your thoughts? 1:07:56.440 --> 1:08:00.160 First of all, certainly Elon, I'd 1:08:00.160 --> 1:08:03.200 say SpaceX and some of his other ventures 1:08:03.200 --> 1:08:08.160 are definitely a competitive force in the space industry. 1:08:08.160 --> 1:08:09.880 And do we like competition? 1:08:09.880 --> 1:08:11.520 Yeah, we do. 1:08:11.520 --> 1:08:15.480 And we think we're very strong competitors. 1:08:15.480 --> 1:08:20.800 I think competition is what the US is founded on 1:08:20.800 --> 1:08:24.680 in a lot of ways and always coming up with a better way. 1:08:24.680 --> 1:08:29.480 And I think it's really important to continue 1:08:29.480 --> 1:08:33.000 to have fresh eyes coming in, new innovation. 1:08:33.000 --> 1:08:35.480 I do think it's important to have level playing fields. 1:08:35.480 --> 1:08:38.760 And so you want to make sure that you're not 1:08:38.760 --> 1:08:42.800 giving different requirements to different players. 1:08:42.800 --> 1:08:47.560 But I tell people, I spent a lot of time at places like MIT. 1:08:47.560 --> 1:08:50.600 I'm going to be at the MIT Beaver Works Summer Institute 1:08:50.600 --> 1:08:52.120 over the weekend here. 1:08:52.120 --> 1:08:55.040 And I tell people, this is the most exciting time 1:08:55.040 --> 1:08:58.400 to be in the space business in my entire life. 1:08:58.400 --> 1:09:02.960 And it is this explosion of new capabilities 1:09:02.960 --> 1:09:06.960 that have been driven by things like the massive increase 1:09:06.960 --> 1:09:10.920 in computing power, things like the massive increase 1:09:10.920 --> 1:09:15.120 in comms capabilities, advanced and additive manufacturing, 1:09:15.120 --> 1:09:18.800 are really bringing down the barriers to entry 1:09:18.800 --> 1:09:21.880 in this field and it's driving just incredible innovation. 1:09:21.880 --> 1:09:23.600 It's happening at startups, but it's also 1:09:23.600 --> 1:09:25.400 happening at Lockheed Martin. 1:09:25.400 --> 1:09:27.600 I did not realize this, but Lockheed Martin, working 1:09:27.600 --> 1:09:31.360 with Stanford, actually built the first cubes that 1:09:31.360 --> 1:09:35.120 was launched here out of the US that was called Quakesat. 1:09:35.120 --> 1:09:37.440 And we did that with Stellar Solutions. 1:09:37.440 --> 1:09:41.640 This was right around just after 2000, I guess. 1:09:41.640 --> 1:09:45.480 And so we've been in that from the very beginning. 1:09:45.480 --> 1:09:50.080 And I talked about some of these like Maya and Orion, 1:09:50.080 --> 1:09:54.760 but we're in the middle of what we call smartsats and software 1:09:54.760 --> 1:09:58.800 to find satellites that can essentially restructure and remap 1:09:58.800 --> 1:10:02.400 their purpose, their mission on orbit 1:10:02.400 --> 1:10:06.520 to give you almost unlimited flexibility for these satellites 1:10:06.520 --> 1:10:08.000 over their lifetimes. 1:10:08.000 --> 1:10:10.200 So those are just a couple of examples, 1:10:10.200 --> 1:10:13.440 but yeah, this is a great time to be in space. 1:10:13.440 --> 1:10:14.360 Absolutely. 1:10:14.360 --> 1:10:20.160 So Wright Brothers flew for the first time 116 years ago. 1:10:20.160 --> 1:10:23.040 So now we have supersonic stealth planes 1:10:23.040 --> 1:10:25.440 and all the technology we've talked about. 1:10:25.440 --> 1:10:29.280 What innovations, obviously you can't predict the future, 1:10:29.280 --> 1:10:32.440 but do you see Lockheed in the next 100 years? 1:10:32.440 --> 1:10:36.800 If you take that same leap, how will the world of technology 1:10:36.800 --> 1:10:37.840 and engineering change? 1:10:37.840 --> 1:10:39.320 I know it's an impossible question, 1:10:39.320 --> 1:10:42.920 but nobody could have predicted that we could even 1:10:42.920 --> 1:10:45.800 fly 120 years ago. 1:10:45.800 --> 1:10:50.640 So what do you think is the edge of possibility 1:10:50.640 --> 1:10:52.680 that we're going to be exploring in the next 100 years? 1:10:52.680 --> 1:10:55.440 I don't know that there is an edge. 1:10:55.440 --> 1:11:00.760 We've been around for almost that entire time, right? 1:11:00.760 --> 1:11:03.840 The Lockheed Brothers and Glenn L. Martin 1:11:03.840 --> 1:11:07.960 starting their companies in the basement of a church 1:11:07.960 --> 1:11:11.840 and an old service station. 1:11:11.840 --> 1:11:14.240 We're very different companies today 1:11:14.240 --> 1:11:15.720 than we were back then, right? 1:11:15.720 --> 1:11:17.680 And that's because we've continuously 1:11:17.680 --> 1:11:21.680 reinvented ourselves over all of those decades. 1:11:21.680 --> 1:11:24.320 I think it's fair to say, I know this for sure, 1:11:24.320 --> 1:11:27.840 the world of the future, it's going to move faster, 1:11:27.840 --> 1:11:29.320 it's going to be more connected, 1:11:29.320 --> 1:11:31.640 it's going to be more autonomous, 1:11:31.640 --> 1:11:36.160 and it's going to be more complex than it is today. 1:11:36.160 --> 1:11:39.680 And so this is the world as a CTO of Lockheed Martin 1:11:39.680 --> 1:11:41.560 that I think about, what are the technologies 1:11:41.560 --> 1:11:42.720 that we have to invest in? 1:11:42.720 --> 1:11:45.480 Whether it's things like AI and autonomy, 1:11:45.480 --> 1:11:47.280 you can think about quantum computing, 1:11:47.280 --> 1:11:49.120 which is an area that we've invested in 1:11:49.120 --> 1:11:53.520 to try to stay ahead of these technological changes 1:11:53.520 --> 1:11:56.280 and frankly, some of the threats that are out there. 1:11:56.280 --> 1:11:58.360 And I believe that we're going to be out there 1:11:58.360 --> 1:12:00.840 in the solar system, that we're going to be defending 1:12:00.840 --> 1:12:04.960 and defending well against probably military threats 1:12:04.960 --> 1:12:08.120 that nobody has even thought about today. 1:12:08.120 --> 1:12:12.400 We are going to be, we're going to use these capabilities 1:12:12.400 --> 1:12:15.720 to have far greater knowledge of our own planet, 1:12:15.720 --> 1:12:19.320 the depths of the oceans, all the way to the upper reaches 1:12:19.320 --> 1:12:21.400 of the atmosphere and everything out to the sun 1:12:21.400 --> 1:12:23.440 and to the edge of the solar system. 1:12:23.440 --> 1:12:26.760 So that's what I look forward to. 1:12:26.760 --> 1:12:30.840 And I'm excited, I mean, just looking ahead 1:12:30.840 --> 1:12:33.360 in the next decade or so to the steps 1:12:33.360 --> 1:12:35.320 that I see ahead of us in that time. 1:12:35.320 --> 1:12:38.240 I don't think there's a better place to end. 1:12:38.240 --> 1:12:39.600 Okay, thank you so much. 1:12:39.600 --> 1:12:41.800 Lex, it's been a real pleasure and sorry, 1:12:41.800 --> 1:12:43.400 it took so long to get up here, 1:12:43.400 --> 1:13:05.680 but glad we were able to make it happen.