vtt/episode_033_small.vtt

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 The following is a conversation with Keoki Jackson.

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 He's the CTO of Lockheed Martin,

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 a company that through his long history

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 has created some of the most incredible engineering

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 marvels human beings have ever built,

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 including planes that fly fast and undetected,

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 defense systems that intersect nuclear threats that

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 can take the lives of millions, and systems that venture out

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 into space, the moon, Mars, and beyond.

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 And these days, more and more, artificial intelligence

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 has an assistive role to play in these systems.

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 I've read several books in preparation

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 for this conversation.

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 It is a difficult one, because in part,

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 Lockheed Martin builds military systems

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 that operate in a complicated world that often does not

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 have easy solutions in the gray area between good and evil.

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 I hope one day this world will rid itself of war

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 in all its forms.

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 But the path to achieving that in a world that

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 does have evil is not obvious.

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 What is obvious is good engineering

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 and artificial intelligence research

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 has a role to play on the side of good.

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 Lockheed Martin and the rest of our community

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 are hard at work at exactly this task.

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 We talk about these and other important topics

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 in this conversation.

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 Also, most certainly, both Kiyoki and I have a passion for space,

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 us humans venturing out toward the stars.

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 We talk about this exciting future as well.

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 This is the artificial intelligence podcast.

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 If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube,

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 give it five stars on iTunes, support it on Patreon,

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 or simply connect with me on Twitter

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 at Lex Freedman, spelled F R I D M A N.

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 And now, here's my conversation with Kiyoki Jackson.

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 I read several books on Lockheed Martin recently.

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 My favorite, in particular, is by Ben Rich,

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 called Skonkork's personal memoir.

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 It gets a little edgy at times.

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 But from that, I was reminded that the engineers of Lockheed

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 Martin have created some of the most incredible engineering

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 marvels human beings have ever built throughout the 20th century

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 and the 21st.

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 Do you remember a particular project or system at Lockheed

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 or before that at the Space Shuttle Columbia

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 that you were just in awe at the fact

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 that us humans could create something like this?

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 That's a great question.

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 There's a lot of things that I could draw on there.

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 When you look at the Skonkorks and Ben Rich's book,

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 in particular, of course, it starts off

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 with basically the start of the jet age and the P80.

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 I had the opportunity to sit next to one of the Apollo

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 astronauts, Charlie Duke, recently at dinner.

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 And I said, hey, what's your favorite aircraft?

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 And he said, well, it was by far the F104 Starfighter, which

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 was another aircraft that came out of Lockheed there.

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 What kind of?

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 It was the first Mach 2 jet fighter aircraft.

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 They called it the missile with a man in it.

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 And so those are the kinds of things

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 I grew up hearing stories about.

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 Of course, the SR 71 is incomparable

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 as kind of the epitome of speed, altitude, and just

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 the coolest looking aircraft ever.

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 So there's a reconnaissance that's

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 a plane that's a intelligence surveillance

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 and reconnaissance aircraft that was designed

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 to be able to outrun, basically go faster

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 than any air defense system.

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 But I'll tell you, I'm a space junkie.

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 That's why I came to MIT.

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 That's really what took me, ultimately, to Lockheed Martin.

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 And I grew up, and so Lockheed Martin, for example,

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 has been essentially at the heart of every planetary mission,

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 like all the Mars missions we've had a part in.

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 And we've talked a lot about the 50th anniversary of Apollo

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 here in the last couple of weeks, right?

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 But remember, 1976, July 20, again, the National Space

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 Day, so the landing of the Viking lander on the surface

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 of Mars, just a huge accomplishment.

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 And when I was a young engineer at Lockheed Martin,

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 I got to meet engineers who had designed various pieces

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 of that mission as well.

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 So that's what I grew up on is these planetary missions,

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 the start of the space shuttle era,

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 and ultimately had the opportunity

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 to see Lockheed Martin's part in what

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 we can maybe talk about some of these here,

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 but Lockheed Martin's part in all of these space journeys

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 over the years.

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 Do you dream, and I apologize for getting philosophical at times,

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 or sentimental, I do romanticize the notion

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 of space exploration.

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 So do you dream of the day when us humans colonize

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 another planet, like Mars, or a man, a woman, a human being,

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 steps on Mars?

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 Absolutely.

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 And that's a personal dream of mine.

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 I haven't given up yet on my own opportunity

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 to fly into space, but from the Lockheed Martin perspective,

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 this is something that we're working towards every day.

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 And of course, we're building the Orion spacecraft, which

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 is the most sophisticated human rated spacecraft ever built.

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 And it's really designed for these deep space journeys,

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 starting with the moon, but ultimately going to Mars.

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 And being the platform from a design perspective,

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 we call the Mars Base Camp to be able to take humans

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 to the surface, and then after a mission of a couple of weeks,

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 bring them back up safely.

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 And so that is something I want to see happen during my time

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 at Lockheed Martin.

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 So I'm pretty excited about that.

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 And I think once we prove that's possible,

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 colonization might be a little bit further out,

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 but it's something that I'd hope to see.

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 So maybe you can give a little bit

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 of an overview of, so Lockheed Martin

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 has partnered with a few years ago with Boeing

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 to work with the DoD and NASA to build launch systems

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 and rockets with the ULA.

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 What's beyond that?

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 What's Lockheed's mission, timeline, and long term

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 dream in terms of space?

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 You mentioned the moon.

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 I've heard you talk about asteroids as Mars.

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 What's the timeline?

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 What's the engineering challenges?

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 And what's the dream long term?

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 Yeah, I think the dream long term is

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 to have a permanent presence in space beyond low Earth

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 orbit, ultimately with a long term presence on the moon

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 and then to the planets to Mars.

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 And it's very interrupting that.

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 So long term presence means sustained and sustainable

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 presence in an economy, a space economy,

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 that really goes alongside that.

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 With human beings and being able to launch perhaps

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 from those, so like hop.

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 You know, there's a lot of energy

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 that goes in those hops, right?

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 So I think the first step is being

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 able to get there and to be able to establish sustained basis,

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 right, and build from there.

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 And a lot of that means getting, as you know,

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 things like the cost of launch down.

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 And you mentioned United Launch Alliance.

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 And so I don't want to speak for ULA,

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 but obviously they're working really hard

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 to, on their next generation of launch vehicles,

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 to maintain that incredible mission success record

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 that ULA has, but ultimately continue

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 to drive down the cost and make the flexibility, the speed,

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 and the access ever greater.

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 So what's the missions that are in the horizon

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 that you could talk to?

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 Is there a hope to get to the moon?

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 Absolutely, absolutely.

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 I mean, I think you know this, or you

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 may know this, there's a lot of ways

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 to accomplish some of these goals.

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 And so that's a lot of what's in discussion today.

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 But ultimately, the goal is to be

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 able to establish a base, essentially

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 in CIS lunar space that would allow for ready transfer

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 from orbit to the lunar surface and back again.

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 And so that's sort of that near term,

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 I say near term in the next decade or so vision,

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 starting off with a stated objective

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 by this administration to get back to the moon in the 2024,

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 2025 time frame, which is right around the corner here.

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 How big of an engineering challenge is that?

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 I think the big challenge is not so much to go, but to stay.

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 And so we demonstrated in the 60s

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 that you could send somebody up, do a couple of days of mission,

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 and bring them home again successfully.

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 Now we're talking about doing that,

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 I'd say more to, I don't want to say an industrial scale,

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 but a sustained scale.

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 So permanent habitation, regular reuse of vehicles,

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 the infrastructure to get things like fuel, air, consumables,

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 replacement parts, all the things that you need to sustain

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 that kind of infrastructure.

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 So those are certainly engineering challenges.

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 There are budgetary challenges.

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 And those are all things that we're

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 going to have to work through.

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 The other thing, and I shouldn't,

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 I don't want to minimize this.

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 I mean, I'm excited about human exploration,

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 but the reality is our technology

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 and where we've come over the last 40 years, essentially,

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 has changed what we can do with robotic exploration as well.

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 And to me, it's incredibly thrilling.

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 This seems like old news now, but the fact

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 that we have rovers driving around the surface of Mars

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 and sending back data is just incredible.

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 The fact that we have satellites in orbit around Mars

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 that are collecting weather, they're

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 looking at the terrain, they're mapping,

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 all these kinds of things on a continuous basis,

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 that's incredible.

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 And the fact that you got the time lag,

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 of course, going to the planets, but you can effectively

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 have virtual human presence there in a way

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 that we have never been able to do before.

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 And now, with the advent of even greater processing power,

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 better AI systems, better cognitive systems

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 and decision systems, you put that together

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 with the human piece, and we really

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 opened up the solar system in a whole different way.

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 And I'll give you an example.

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 We've got Osiris Rex, which is a mission to the asteroid Benus.

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 So the spacecraft is out there right now on basically a year

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 mapping activity to map the entire surface of that asteroid

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 in great detail, all autonomously piloted, right?

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 But the idea then that, and this is not too far away,

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 it's going to go in.

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 It's got a sort of fancy vacuum cleaner with a bucket.

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 It's going to collect the sample off the asteroid

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 and then send it back here to Earth.

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 And so we have gone from sort of those tentative steps

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 in the 70s, early landings, video of the solar system

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 to now we've sent spacecraft to Pluto.

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 We have gone to comets and brought and intercepted comets.

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 We've brought stardust, material back.

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 So we've gone far, and there's incredible opportunity

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 to go even farther.

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 So it seems quite crazy that this is even possible,

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 that can you talk a little bit about what

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 it means to orbit an asteroid with a bucket to try

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 to pick up some soil samples?

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 Yeah.

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 So part of it is just kind of the,

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 these are the same kinds of techniques

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 we use here on Earth for high speed, high accuracy imagery,

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 stitching these scenes together, and creating essentially

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 high accuracy world maps.

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 And so that's what we're doing, obviously,

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 on a much smaller scale with an asteroid.

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 But the other thing that's really interesting,

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 you put together sort of that neat control and data

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 and imagery problem.

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 But the stories around how we design the collection,

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 I mean, as essentially, this is the sort of the human

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 ingenuity element, right?

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 That essentially had an engineer who had one day he's like,

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 well, starts messing around with parts, vacuum cleaner,

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 bucket, maybe we could do something like this.

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 And that was what led to what we call the Pogo stick

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 collection, right?

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 Where basically, I think comes down,

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 it's only there for seconds does that collection,

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 grabs the, essentially blows the regolith material

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 into the collection hopper and off it goes.

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 It doesn't really land almost.

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 It's a very short landing.

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 Wow, that's incredible.

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 So what is in those, we talk a little bit more about space.

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 What's the role of the human in all of this?

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 What are the challenges?

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 What are the opportunities for humans

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 as they pilot these vehicles in space

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 and for humans that may step foot on either the moon or Mars?

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 Yeah, it's a great question because I just

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 have been extolling the virtues of robotic and rovers,

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 autonomous systems, and those absolutely have a role.

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 I think the thing that we don't know how to replace today

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 is the ability to adapt on the fly to new information.

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 And I believe that will come, but we're not there yet.

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 There's a ways to go.

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 And so you think back to Apollo 13

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 and the ingenuity of the folks on the ground and on the spacecraft

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 essentially cobbled together a way

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 to get the carbon dioxide scrubbers to work.

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 Those are the kinds of things that ultimately,

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 and I'd say not just from dealing with anomalies,

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 but dealing with new information.

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 You see something, and rather than waiting 20 minutes

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 or half an hour an hour to try to get information back

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 and forth, but be able to essentially

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 revect around the fly, collect different samples,

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 take a different approach, choose different areas to explore.

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 Those are the kinds of things that that human presence enables

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 that still weighs ahead of us on the AI side.

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 Yeah, there's some interesting stuff we'll talk about

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 on the teaming side here on Earth.

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 That's pretty cool to explore.

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 And in space, let's not leave the space piece out.

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 So what is teaming?

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 What does AI and humans working together in space look like?

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 Yeah, one of the things we're working on

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 is a system called Maya, which is, think of it,

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 so it's an AI assistant.

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 And in space, exactly.

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 And think of it as the Alexa in space, right?

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 But this goes hand in hand with a lot of other developments.

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 And so today's world, everything is essentially model based,

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 model based systems engineering to the actual digital tapestry

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 that goes through the design, the build, the manufacture,

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 the testing, and ultimately the sustainment of these systems.

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 And so our vision is really that when our astronauts

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 are there around Mars, you're going

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 to have that entire digital library of the spacecraft,

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 of its operations, all the test data, all the test data

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 and flight data from previous missions

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 to be able to look and see if there are anomalous conditions

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 until the humans, and potentially deal with that

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 before it becomes a bad situation and help

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 the astronauts work through those kinds of things.

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 And it's not just dealing with problems as they come up,

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 but also offering up opportunities

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 for additional exploration capability, for example.

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 So that's the vision is that these

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 are going to take the best of the human to respond

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 to changing circumstances and rely on the best AI

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 capabilities to monitor this almost infinite number

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 of data points and correlations of data points

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 that humans, frankly, aren't that good at.

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 So how do you develop systems in space like this,

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 whether it's a Alexa in space or, in general, any kind

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 of control systems, any kind of intelligent systems,

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 when you can't really test stuff too much out in space,

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 it's very expensive to test stuff.

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 So how do you develop such systems?

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 Yeah, that's the beauty of this digital twin, if you will.

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 And of course, with Lockheed Martin,

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 we've over the past five plus decades

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 been refining our knowledge of the space environment,

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 of how materials behave, dynamics, the controls,

17:33.240 --> 17:37.160
 the radiation environments, all of these kinds of things.

17:37.160 --> 17:39.880
 So we're able to create very sophisticated models.

17:39.880 --> 17:43.440
 They're not perfect, but they're very good.

17:43.440 --> 17:46.600
 And so you can actually do a lot.

17:46.600 --> 17:51.440
 I spent part of my career simulating communication

17:51.440 --> 17:56.400
 spacecraft, missile warning spacecraft, GPS spacecraft,

17:56.400 --> 17:59.280
 in all kinds of scenarios and all kinds of environments.

17:59.280 --> 18:01.880
 So this is really just taking that to the next level.

18:01.880 --> 18:04.000
 The interesting thing is that now you're

18:04.000 --> 18:07.800
 bringing into that loop a system, depending on how it's

18:07.800 --> 18:10.520
 developed, that may be non deterministic,

18:10.520 --> 18:13.160
 it may be learning as it goes.

18:13.160 --> 18:16.560
 In fact, we anticipate that it will be learning as it goes.

18:16.560 --> 18:22.160
 And so that brings a whole new level of interest, I guess,

18:22.160 --> 18:25.320
 into how do you do verification and validation

18:25.320 --> 18:28.520
 of these non deterministic learning systems

18:28.520 --> 18:32.720
 in scenarios that may go out of the bounds or the envelope

18:32.720 --> 18:35.000
 that you have initially designed them to.

18:35.000 --> 18:39.200
 So this system in its intelligence has the same complexity,

18:39.200 --> 18:41.040
 some of the same complexity a human does.

18:41.040 --> 18:43.640
 And it learns over time, it's unpredictable

18:43.640 --> 18:46.240
 in certain kinds of ways.

18:46.240 --> 18:50.120
 So you also have to model that when you're thinking about it.

18:50.120 --> 18:53.440
 So in your thoughts, it's possible

18:53.440 --> 18:57.240
 to model the majority of situations,

18:57.240 --> 18:59.640
 the important aspects of situations here on Earth

18:59.640 --> 19:02.280
 and in space, enough to test stuff.

19:02.280 --> 19:05.560
 Yeah, this is really an active area of research.

19:05.560 --> 19:07.440
 And we're actually funding university research

19:07.440 --> 19:10.080
 in a variety of places, including MIT.

19:10.080 --> 19:13.720
 This is in the realm of trust and verification

19:13.720 --> 19:17.920
 and validation of, I'd say, autonomous systems in general.

19:17.920 --> 19:20.920
 And then as a subset of that, autonomous systems

19:20.920 --> 19:24.520
 that incorporate artificial intelligence capabilities.

19:24.520 --> 19:27.880
 And this is not an easy problem.

19:27.880 --> 19:29.520
 We're working with startup companies.

19:29.520 --> 19:33.160
 We've got internal R&D, but our conviction

19:33.160 --> 19:39.200
 is that autonomy and more and more AI enabled autonomy

19:39.200 --> 19:42.680
 is going to be in everything that Lockheed Martin develops

19:42.680 --> 19:44.200
 and fields.

19:44.200 --> 19:48.280
 And autonomy and AI are going to be

19:48.280 --> 19:50.080
 retrofit into existing systems.

19:50.080 --> 19:52.400
 They're going to be part of the design

19:52.400 --> 19:54.440
 for all of our future systems.

19:54.440 --> 19:56.680
 And so maybe I should take a step back and say,

19:56.680 --> 19:58.600
 the way we define autonomy.

19:58.600 --> 20:01.400
 So we talk about autonomy, essentially,

20:01.400 --> 20:08.400
 a system that composes, selects, and then executes decisions

20:08.400 --> 20:12.400
 with varying levels of human intervention.

20:12.400 --> 20:15.720
 And so you could think of no autonomy.

20:15.720 --> 20:18.400
 So this is essentially a human doing the task.

20:18.400 --> 20:23.000
 You can think of, effectively, partial autonomy

20:23.000 --> 20:25.720
 where the human is in the loop.

20:25.720 --> 20:29.040
 So making decisions in every case

20:29.040 --> 20:31.040
 about what the autonomous system can do.

20:31.040 --> 20:33.120
 Either in the cockpit or remotely.

20:33.120 --> 20:35.960
 Or remotely, exactly, but still in that control loop.

20:35.960 --> 20:39.800
 And then there's what you'd call supervisory autonomy.

20:39.800 --> 20:42.360
 So the autonomous system is doing most of the work.

20:42.360 --> 20:45.880
 The human can intervene to stop it or to change the direction.

20:45.880 --> 20:47.840
 And then ultimately, full autonomy

20:47.840 --> 20:50.200
 where the human is off the loop altogether.

20:50.200 --> 20:52.760
 And for different types of missions,

20:52.760 --> 20:55.760
 want to have different levels of autonomy.

20:55.760 --> 20:58.280
 So now take that spectrum and this conviction

20:58.280 --> 21:01.120
 that autonomy and more and more AI

21:01.120 --> 21:05.000
 are in everything that we develop.

21:05.000 --> 21:08.960
 The kinds of things that Lockheed Martin does a lot of times

21:08.960 --> 21:12.600
 are safety of life critical kinds of missions.

21:12.600 --> 21:15.920
 Think about aircraft, for example.

21:15.920 --> 21:20.040
 And so we require, and our customers require,

21:20.040 --> 21:23.480
 an extremely high level of confidence.

21:23.480 --> 21:26.360
 One, that we're going to protect life.

21:26.360 --> 21:30.640
 Two, that we're going to, that these systems will behave

21:30.640 --> 21:33.840
 in ways that their operators can understand.

21:33.840 --> 21:36.360
 And so this gets into that whole field.

21:36.360 --> 21:41.320
 Again, being able to verify and validate

21:41.320 --> 21:44.920
 that the systems have been, that they will operate

21:44.920 --> 21:48.040
 the way they're designed and the way they're expected.

21:48.040 --> 21:50.720
 And furthermore, that they will do that

21:50.720 --> 21:55.400
 in ways that can be explained and understood.

21:55.400 --> 21:58.800
 And that is an extremely difficult challenge.

21:58.800 --> 22:00.760
 Yeah, so here's a difficult question.

22:00.760 --> 22:04.360
 I don't mean to bring this up,

22:04.360 --> 22:05.560
 but I think it's a good case study

22:05.560 --> 22:07.840
 that people are familiar with.

22:07.840 --> 22:11.080
 Boeing 737 MAX commercial airplane

22:11.080 --> 22:13.360
 has had two recent crashes

22:13.360 --> 22:15.920
 where their flight control software system failed.

22:15.920 --> 22:19.080
 And it's software, so I don't mean to speak about Boeing,

22:19.080 --> 22:21.040
 but broadly speaking, we have this

22:21.040 --> 22:24.040
 in the autonomous vehicle space too, semi autonomous.

22:24.040 --> 22:27.840
 When you have millions of lines of code software

22:27.840 --> 22:32.080
 making decisions, there is a little bit of a clash

22:32.080 --> 22:35.320
 of cultures because software engineers

22:35.320 --> 22:38.400
 don't have the same culture of safety often.

22:39.440 --> 22:43.120
 That people who build systems like at Lockheed Martin

22:43.120 --> 22:46.480
 do where it has to be exceptionally safe,

22:46.480 --> 22:48.080
 you have to test this on.

22:48.080 --> 22:49.880
 So how do we get this right

22:49.880 --> 22:53.200
 when software is making so many decisions?

22:53.200 --> 22:57.160
 Yeah, and there's a lot of things that have to happen.

22:57.160 --> 23:01.280
 And by and large, I think it starts with the culture,

23:01.280 --> 23:03.320
 which is not necessarily something

23:03.320 --> 23:05.960
 that A is taught in school,

23:05.960 --> 23:07.960
 or B is something that would come,

23:07.960 --> 23:10.840
 depending on what kind of software you're developing,

23:10.840 --> 23:14.240
 it may not be relevant if you're targeting ads

23:14.240 --> 23:15.760
 or something like that.

23:15.760 --> 23:20.600
 So, and by and large, I'd say not just Lockheed Martin,

23:20.600 --> 23:23.720
 but certainly the aerospace industry as a whole

23:23.720 --> 23:27.240
 has developed a culture that does focus on safety,

23:27.240 --> 23:31.000
 safety of life, operational safety, mission success.

23:32.200 --> 23:34.040
 But as you know, these systems

23:34.040 --> 23:36.120
 have gotten incredibly complex.

23:36.120 --> 23:40.720
 And so they're to the point where it's almost impossible,

23:40.720 --> 23:44.840
 state spaces become so huge that it's impossible to,

23:44.840 --> 23:48.880
 or very difficult to do a systematic verification

23:48.880 --> 23:52.280
 across the entire set of potential ways

23:52.280 --> 23:53.760
 that an aircraft could be flown,

23:53.760 --> 23:55.560
 all the conditions that could happen,

23:55.560 --> 23:59.320
 all the potential failure scenarios.

23:59.320 --> 24:01.120
 Now, maybe that's soluble one day,

24:01.120 --> 24:03.360
 maybe when we have our quantum computers

24:03.360 --> 24:07.520
 that our fingertips will be able to actually simulate

24:07.520 --> 24:11.280
 across an entire almost infinite state space.

24:11.280 --> 24:16.280
 But today, there's a lot of work

24:16.280 --> 24:20.960
 to really try to bound the system,

24:20.960 --> 24:24.760
 to make sure that it behaves in predictable ways,

24:24.760 --> 24:29.080
 and then have this culture of continuous inquiry

24:29.080 --> 24:33.160
 and skepticism and questioning to say,

24:33.160 --> 24:37.320
 did we really consider the right realm of possibilities,

24:37.320 --> 24:40.160
 have we done the right range of testing?

24:40.160 --> 24:42.400
 Do we really understand, in this case,

24:42.400 --> 24:44.640
 human and machine interactions,

24:44.640 --> 24:46.160
 the human decision process

24:46.160 --> 24:49.480
 alongside the machine processes?

24:49.480 --> 24:51.520
 And so that's that culture,

24:51.520 --> 24:53.520
 we call it the culture of mission success

24:53.520 --> 24:54.960
 at Lockheed Martin,

24:54.960 --> 24:56.720
 that really needs to be established.

24:56.720 --> 24:58.120
 And it's not something,

24:58.120 --> 25:02.160
 it's something that people learn by living in it.

25:02.160 --> 25:05.240
 And it's something that has to be promulgated,

25:05.240 --> 25:07.120
 and it's done from the highest level.

25:07.120 --> 25:10.160
 So I had a company of Lockheed Martin, like Lockheed Martin.

25:10.160 --> 25:12.480
 Yeah, and the same as being faced

25:12.480 --> 25:14.000
 at certain autonomous vehicle companies

25:14.000 --> 25:15.760
 where that culture is not there

25:15.760 --> 25:18.600
 because it started mostly by software engineers,

25:18.600 --> 25:20.400
 so that's what they're struggling with.

25:21.440 --> 25:25.720
 Is there lessons that you think we should learn

25:25.720 --> 25:27.280
 as an industry and a society

25:27.280 --> 25:30.240
 from the Boeing 737 MAX crashes?

25:30.240 --> 25:34.720
 These crashes, obviously, are either tremendous tragedies,

25:34.720 --> 25:37.800
 they're tragedies for all of the people,

25:37.800 --> 25:41.240
 the crew, the families, the passengers,

25:41.240 --> 25:43.160
 the people on the ground involved.

25:44.280 --> 25:49.080
 And it's also a huge business and economic setback as well.

25:49.080 --> 25:51.720
 I mean, we've seen that it's impacting, essentially,

25:51.720 --> 25:53.840
 the trade balance of the US.

25:53.840 --> 25:58.360
 So these are important questions.

25:58.360 --> 26:00.200
 And these are the kinds of,

26:00.200 --> 26:03.040
 we've seen similar kinds of questioning at times.

26:03.040 --> 26:06.000
 We go back to the Challenger accident.

26:06.960 --> 26:10.640
 And it is, I think, always important to remind ourselves

26:10.640 --> 26:11.960
 that humans are fallible,

26:11.960 --> 26:14.040
 that the systems we create,

26:14.040 --> 26:16.560
 as perfect as we strive to make them,

26:16.560 --> 26:18.960
 we can always make them better.

26:18.960 --> 26:21.760
 And so another element of that culture of mission success

26:21.760 --> 26:24.960
 is really that commitment to continuous improvement.

26:24.960 --> 26:27.480
 If there's something that goes wrong,

26:27.480 --> 26:31.160
 a real commitment to root cause

26:31.160 --> 26:33.320
 and true root cause understanding,

26:33.320 --> 26:35.080
 to taking the corrective actions

26:35.080 --> 26:38.880
 and to making the future systems better.

26:38.880 --> 26:43.880
 And certainly, we strive for no accidents.

26:45.160 --> 26:47.760
 And if you look at the record

26:47.760 --> 26:50.440
 of the commercial airline industry as a whole

26:50.440 --> 26:53.360
 and the commercial aircraft industry as a whole,

26:53.360 --> 26:57.640
 there's a very nice decaying exponential

26:57.640 --> 27:01.680
 to years now where we have no commercial aircraft accidents

27:01.680 --> 27:04.760
 at all, our fatal accidents at all.

27:04.760 --> 27:08.360
 So that didn't happen by accident.

27:08.360 --> 27:11.640
 It was through the regulatory agencies, FAA,

27:11.640 --> 27:14.400
 the airframe manufacturers,

27:14.400 --> 27:18.680
 really working on a system to identify root causes

27:18.680 --> 27:20.520
 and drive them out.

27:20.520 --> 27:23.880
 So maybe we can take a step back

27:23.880 --> 27:25.520
 and many people are familiar,

27:25.520 --> 27:28.840
 but Lockheed Martin broadly,

27:28.840 --> 27:31.240
 what kind of categories of systems

27:32.120 --> 27:34.280
 are you involved in building?

27:34.280 --> 27:36.240
 You know, Lockheed Martin, we think of ourselves

27:36.240 --> 27:39.880
 as a company that solves hard mission problems.

27:39.880 --> 27:42.080
 And the output of that might be an airplane

27:42.080 --> 27:44.640
 or a spacecraft or a helicopter or radar

27:44.640 --> 27:45.680
 or something like that.

27:45.680 --> 27:47.920
 But ultimately we're driven by these,

27:47.920 --> 27:50.240
 you know, like what is our customer?

27:50.240 --> 27:52.680
 What is that mission that they need to achieve?

27:52.680 --> 27:55.480
 And so that's what drove the SR 71, right?

27:55.480 --> 27:57.840
 How do you get pictures of a place

27:59.000 --> 28:02.160
 where you've got sophisticated air defense systems

28:02.160 --> 28:05.440
 that are capable of handling any aircraft

28:05.440 --> 28:07.440
 that was out there at the time, right?

28:07.440 --> 28:10.440
 So that, you know, that's what you'll do to an SR 71.

28:10.440 --> 28:12.480
 Build a nice flying camera.

28:12.480 --> 28:16.040
 Exactly, and make sure it gets out and it gets back, right?

28:16.040 --> 28:18.280
 And that led ultimately to really the start

28:18.280 --> 28:20.440
 of the space program in the US as well.

28:22.200 --> 28:24.920
 So now take a step back to Lockheed Martin of today.

28:24.920 --> 28:29.040
 And we are, you know, on the order of 105 years old now,

28:29.040 --> 28:32.400
 between Lockheed and Martin, the two big heritage companies.

28:32.400 --> 28:34.600
 Of course, we're made up of a whole bunch of other companies

28:34.600 --> 28:36.120
 that came in as well.

28:36.120 --> 28:39.800
 General Dynamics, you know, kind of go down the list.

28:39.800 --> 28:42.600
 Today we're, you can think of us

28:42.600 --> 28:44.840
 in this space of solving mission problems.

28:44.840 --> 28:48.440
 So obviously on the aircraft side,

28:48.440 --> 28:53.000
 tactical aircraft, building the most advanced fighter aircraft

28:53.000 --> 28:55.120
 that the world has ever seen, you know,

28:55.120 --> 28:57.880
 we're up to now several hundred of those delivered,

28:57.880 --> 29:00.080
 building almost a hundred a year.

29:00.080 --> 29:04.120
 And of course, working on the things that come after that.

29:04.120 --> 29:07.720
 On the space side, we are engaged in pretty much

29:07.720 --> 29:12.720
 every venue of space utilization and exploration

29:13.160 --> 29:14.280
 you can imagine.

29:14.280 --> 29:18.040
 So I mentioned things like navigation timing, GPS,

29:18.040 --> 29:22.400
 communication satellites, missile warning satellites.

29:22.400 --> 29:24.760
 We've built commercial surveillance satellites.

29:24.760 --> 29:27.640
 We've built commercial communication satellites.

29:27.640 --> 29:29.200
 We do civil space.

29:29.200 --> 29:32.320
 So everything from human exploration

29:32.320 --> 29:35.000
 to the robotic exploration of the outer planets.

29:36.000 --> 29:39.080
 And keep going on the space front.

29:39.080 --> 29:40.640
 But I don't, you know, a couple of other areas

29:40.640 --> 29:44.520
 I'd like to put out, we're heavily engaged

29:44.520 --> 29:47.360
 in building critical defensive systems.

29:47.360 --> 29:51.640
 And so a couple that I'll mention, the Aegis Combat System,

29:51.640 --> 29:55.680
 this is basically the integrated air and missile defense system

29:55.680 --> 29:58.640
 for the US and allied fleets.

29:58.640 --> 30:02.840
 And so protects, you know, carrier strike groups,

30:02.840 --> 30:06.560
 for example, from incoming ballistic missile threats,

30:06.560 --> 30:08.480
 aircraft threats, cruise missile threats,

30:08.480 --> 30:10.080
 and kind of go down the list.

30:10.080 --> 30:13.240
 So the carriers, the fleet itself

30:13.240 --> 30:15.280
 is the thing that is being protected.

30:15.280 --> 30:18.120
 The carriers aren't serving as a protection

30:18.120 --> 30:19.360
 for something else.

30:19.360 --> 30:21.840
 Well, that's a little bit of a different application.

30:21.840 --> 30:24.360
 We've actually built the version called Aegis Assure,

30:24.360 --> 30:27.960
 which is now deployed in a couple of places around the world.

30:27.960 --> 30:31.000
 So that same technology, I mean, basically,

30:31.000 --> 30:35.360
 can be used to protect either an ocean going fleet

30:35.360 --> 30:37.840
 or a land based activity.

30:37.840 --> 30:39.680
 Another one, the THAAD program.

30:41.040 --> 30:44.720
 So THAAD, this is the Theater High Altitude Area Defense.

30:44.720 --> 30:49.120
 This is to protect, you know, relatively broad areas

30:49.120 --> 30:53.400
 against sophisticated ballistic missile threats.

30:53.400 --> 30:57.760
 And so now, you know, it's deployed

30:57.760 --> 30:59.880
 with a lot of US capabilities.

30:59.880 --> 31:01.960
 And now we have international customers

31:01.960 --> 31:04.520
 that are looking to buy that capability as well.

31:04.520 --> 31:07.000
 And so these are systems that defend,

31:07.000 --> 31:10.080
 not just defend militaries and military capabilities,

31:10.080 --> 31:12.400
 but defend population areas.

31:12.400 --> 31:16.320
 And we saw, you know, maybe the first public use of these

31:16.320 --> 31:20.200
 back in the first Gulf War with the Patriot systems.

31:21.200 --> 31:23.120
 And these are the kinds of things

31:23.120 --> 31:25.960
 that Lockheed Martin delivers.

31:25.960 --> 31:27.960
 And there's a lot of stuff that goes with it.

31:27.960 --> 31:31.520
 So think about the radar systems and the sensing systems

31:31.520 --> 31:35.200
 that cue these, the command and control systems

31:35.200 --> 31:39.560
 that decide how you pair a weapon against an incoming threat.

31:39.560 --> 31:42.600
 And then all the human and machine interfaces

31:42.600 --> 31:45.400
 to make sure that they can be operated successfully

31:45.400 --> 31:48.040
 in very strenuous environments.

31:48.040 --> 31:51.840
 Yeah, there's some incredible engineering

31:51.840 --> 31:54.440
 that I'd ever find, like you said.

31:54.440 --> 32:00.440
 So maybe if we just take a look at Lockheed history broadly,

32:00.720 --> 32:02.960
 maybe even looking at Skunk Works.

32:04.200 --> 32:07.240
 What are the biggest, most impressive,

32:07.240 --> 32:11.160
 biggest, most impressive milestones of innovation?

32:11.160 --> 32:13.560
 So if you look at stealth,

32:13.560 --> 32:15.200
 I would have called you crazy if you said

32:15.200 --> 32:16.760
 that's possible at the time.

32:17.880 --> 32:21.280
 And supersonic and hypersonic.

32:21.280 --> 32:24.000
 So traveling at, first of all,

32:24.000 --> 32:27.280
 traveling at the speed of sound is pretty damn fast.

32:27.280 --> 32:29.680
 And supersonic and hypersonic,

32:29.680 --> 32:32.160
 three, four, five times the speed of sound,

32:32.160 --> 32:34.360
 that seems, I would also call you crazy

32:34.360 --> 32:35.760
 if you say you can do that.

32:35.760 --> 32:38.080
 So can you tell me how it's possible

32:38.080 --> 32:39.560
 to do these kinds of things?

32:39.560 --> 32:41.080
 And is there other milestones

32:41.080 --> 32:45.040
 and innovation that's going on that you can talk about?

32:45.040 --> 32:49.000
 Yeah, well, let me start on the Skunk Works saga.

32:49.000 --> 32:51.520
 And you kind of alluded to it in the beginning.

32:51.520 --> 32:54.920
 I mean, Skunk Works is as much an idea as a place.

32:54.920 --> 32:59.520
 And so it's driven really by Kelly Johnson's 14 principles.

32:59.520 --> 33:02.000
 And I'm not gonna list all 14 of them off,

33:02.000 --> 33:04.480
 but the idea, and this I'm sure will resonate

33:04.480 --> 33:06.240
 with any engineer who's worked

33:06.240 --> 33:09.440
 on a highly motivated small team before.

33:09.440 --> 33:13.400
 The idea that if you can essentially have a small team

33:13.400 --> 33:17.280
 of very capable people who wanna work

33:17.280 --> 33:20.520
 on really hard problems, you can do almost anything.

33:20.520 --> 33:23.280
 Especially if you kind of shield them

33:23.280 --> 33:26.680
 from bureaucratic influences,

33:26.680 --> 33:30.680
 if you create very tight relationships with your customer

33:30.680 --> 33:34.360
 so that you have that team and shared vision

33:34.360 --> 33:38.280
 with the customer, those are the kinds of things

33:38.280 --> 33:43.040
 that enable the Skunk Works to do these incredible things.

33:43.040 --> 33:46.360
 And we listed off a number that you brought up stealth.

33:46.360 --> 33:50.520
 And I mean, this whole, I wish I could have seen Ben Rich

33:50.520 --> 33:53.880
 with a ball bearing rolling across the desk

33:53.880 --> 33:55.880
 to a general officer and saying,

33:55.880 --> 33:58.400
 would you like to have an aircraft

33:58.400 --> 34:01.800
 that has the radar cross section of this ball bearing?

34:01.800 --> 34:04.280
 Probably one of the least expensive

34:04.280 --> 34:06.320
 and most effective marketing campaigns

34:06.320 --> 34:08.440
 in the history of the industry.

34:08.440 --> 34:10.680
 So just for people not familiar,

34:10.680 --> 34:12.800
 I mean, the way you detect aircraft,

34:12.800 --> 34:14.680
 so I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of ways,

34:14.680 --> 34:17.360
 but radar for the longest time,

34:17.360 --> 34:20.680
 there's a big blob that appears in the radar.

34:20.680 --> 34:22.360
 How do you make a plane disappear

34:22.360 --> 34:26.200
 so it looks as big as a ball bearing?

34:26.200 --> 34:28.040
 What's involved in technology wise there?

34:28.040 --> 34:32.480
 What's broadly sort of the stuff you can speak about?

34:32.480 --> 34:34.680
 I'll stick to what's in Ben Rich's book,

34:34.680 --> 34:39.000
 but obviously the geometry of how radar gets reflected

34:39.000 --> 34:42.400
 and the kinds of materials that either reflect or absorb

34:42.400 --> 34:46.480
 are kind of the couple of the critical elements there.

34:46.480 --> 34:48.080
 I mean, it's a cat and mouse game, right?

34:48.080 --> 34:52.960
 I mean, radars get better, stealth capabilities get better.

34:52.960 --> 34:57.680
 And so it's a really game of continuous improvement

34:57.680 --> 34:58.520
 and innovation there.

34:58.520 --> 35:00.160
 I'll leave it at that.

35:00.160 --> 35:04.720
 Yeah, so the idea that something is essentially invisible

35:04.720 --> 35:06.440
 is quite fascinating.

35:06.440 --> 35:08.920
 But the other one is flying fast.

35:08.920 --> 35:13.240
 So speed of sound is 750, 60 miles an hour.

35:15.360 --> 35:18.480
 So supersonic is three, Mach three,

35:18.480 --> 35:19.320
 something like that.

35:19.320 --> 35:21.640
 Yeah, we talk about the supersonic obviously

35:21.640 --> 35:24.120
 and we kind of talk about that as that realm

35:24.120 --> 35:26.720
 from Mach one up through about Mach five.

35:26.720 --> 35:31.720
 And then hypersonic, so high supersonic speeds

35:32.040 --> 35:34.800
 would be past Mach five.

35:34.800 --> 35:37.160
 And you got to remember Lockheed, Martin,

35:37.160 --> 35:39.080
 and actually other companies have been involved

35:39.080 --> 35:42.240
 in hypersonic development since the late 60s.

35:42.240 --> 35:45.360
 You think of everything from the X 15

35:45.360 --> 35:48.040
 to the space shuttle as examples of that.

35:50.080 --> 35:54.360
 I think the difference now is if you look around the world,

35:54.360 --> 35:57.360
 particularly the threat environment that we're in today,

35:57.360 --> 36:02.360
 you're starting to see publicly folks like the Russians

36:02.520 --> 36:07.520
 and the Chinese saying they have hypersonic weapons

36:07.560 --> 36:12.560
 capability that could threaten US and allied capabilities.

36:14.280 --> 36:18.840
 And also basically the claims are these could get around

36:18.840 --> 36:21.840
 defensive systems that are out there today.

36:21.840 --> 36:24.520
 And so there's a real sense of urgency.

36:24.520 --> 36:28.160
 You hear it from folks like the undersecretary of defense

36:28.160 --> 36:30.800
 for research and engineering, Dr. Mike Griffin

36:30.800 --> 36:32.800
 and others in the Department of Defense

36:32.800 --> 36:37.200
 that hypersonics is something that's really important

36:37.200 --> 36:41.040
 to the nation in terms of both parity

36:41.040 --> 36:43.120
 but also defensive capabilities.

36:43.120 --> 36:46.200
 And so that's something that we're pleased.

36:46.200 --> 36:49.240
 It's something Lockheed, Martin's had a heritage in.

36:49.240 --> 36:53.800
 We've invested R&D dollars on our side for many years.

36:53.800 --> 36:56.240
 And we have a number of things going on

36:56.240 --> 36:59.760
 with various US government customers in that field today

36:59.760 --> 37:01.520
 that we're very excited about.

37:01.520 --> 37:04.520
 So I would anticipate we'll be hearing more about that

37:04.520 --> 37:06.240
 in the future from our customers.

37:06.240 --> 37:08.880
 And I've actually haven't read much about this.

37:08.880 --> 37:10.840
 Probably you can't talk about much of it at all,

37:10.840 --> 37:12.760
 but on the defensive side,

37:12.760 --> 37:15.600
 it's a fascinating problem of perception

37:15.600 --> 37:18.360
 of trying to detect things that are really hard to see.

37:18.360 --> 37:21.560
 Can you comment on how hard that problem is

37:21.560 --> 37:26.560
 and how hard is it to stay ahead,

37:26.680 --> 37:29.200
 even if we're going back a few decades,

37:29.200 --> 37:30.480
 stay ahead of the competition?

37:30.480 --> 37:33.680
 Well, maybe I, again, you gotta think of these

37:33.680 --> 37:36.480
 as ongoing capability development.

37:36.480 --> 37:40.720
 And so think back to the early phase of missile defense.

37:40.720 --> 37:44.120
 So this would be in the 80s, the SDI program.

37:44.120 --> 37:46.440
 And in that timeframe, we proved,

37:46.440 --> 37:48.920
 and Lockheed Martin proved that you could hit a bullet

37:48.920 --> 37:50.320
 with a bullet, essentially,

37:50.320 --> 37:53.240
 and which is something that had never been done before

37:53.240 --> 37:56.200
 to take out an incoming ballistic missile.

37:56.200 --> 37:58.760
 And so that's led to these incredible

37:58.760 --> 38:01.880
 hit to kill kinds of capabilities, PAC 3.

38:03.160 --> 38:07.040
 That's the Patriot Advanced Capability Model 3

38:07.040 --> 38:08.160
 that Lockheed Martin builds,

38:08.160 --> 38:10.740
 the THAAD system that I talked about.

38:12.120 --> 38:13.880
 So now hypersonics,

38:13.880 --> 38:17.560
 you know, they're different from ballistic systems.

38:17.560 --> 38:19.520
 And so we gotta take the next step

38:19.520 --> 38:21.160
 in defensive capability.

38:22.680 --> 38:25.520
 I can, I'll leave that there, but I can only imagine.

38:26.520 --> 38:29.160
 Now, let me just comment, sort of as an engineer,

38:29.160 --> 38:33.440
 it's sad to know that so much that Lockheed has done

38:33.440 --> 38:37.640
 in the past is classified,

38:37.640 --> 38:40.960
 or today, you know, and it's shrouded in secrecy.

38:40.960 --> 38:44.720
 It has to be by the nature of the application.

38:46.200 --> 38:49.200
 So like what I do, so what we do here at MIT,

38:49.200 --> 38:53.920
 we'd like to inspire young engineers, young scientists,

38:53.920 --> 38:56.480
 and yet in the Lockheed case,

38:56.480 --> 38:59.720
 some of that engineer has to stay quiet.

38:59.720 --> 39:00.920
 How do you think about that?

39:00.920 --> 39:02.120
 How does that make you feel?

39:02.120 --> 39:07.120
 Is there a future where more can be shown,

39:07.120 --> 39:10.600
 or is it just the nature, the nature of this world

39:10.600 --> 39:12.760
 that it has to remain secret?

39:12.760 --> 39:14.920
 It's a good question.

39:14.920 --> 39:19.920
 I think the public can see enough of,

39:21.160 --> 39:24.960
 including students who may be in grade school,

39:24.960 --> 39:27.160
 high school, college today,

39:28.160 --> 39:31.760
 to understand the kinds of really hard problems

39:31.760 --> 39:33.360
 that we work on.

39:33.360 --> 39:36.160
 And I mean, look at the F35, right?

39:36.160 --> 39:40.640
 And obviously a lot of the detailed performance levels

39:40.640 --> 39:43.160
 are sensitive and controlled.

39:43.160 --> 39:48.160
 But we can talk about what an incredible aircraft this is.

39:48.160 --> 39:50.480
 It's a supersonic, super cruise kind of a fighter,

39:50.480 --> 39:54.560
 a stealth capabilities.

39:54.560 --> 39:57.920
 It's a flying information system in the sky

39:57.920 --> 40:01.480
 with data fusion, sensor fusion capabilities

40:01.480 --> 40:03.200
 that have never been seen before.

40:03.200 --> 40:05.280
 So these are the kinds of things that I believe,

40:05.280 --> 40:08.000
 these are the kinds of things that got me excited

40:08.000 --> 40:08.960
 when I was a student.

40:08.960 --> 40:12.240
 I think these still inspire students today.

40:12.240 --> 40:17.040
 And the other thing, I mean, people are inspired by space.

40:17.040 --> 40:20.200
 People are inspired by aircraft.

40:22.000 --> 40:25.360
 Our employees are also inspired by that sense of mission.

40:25.360 --> 40:27.560
 And I'll just give you an example.

40:27.560 --> 40:32.640
 I had the privilege to work and lead our GPS programs

40:32.640 --> 40:34.400
 for some time.

40:34.400 --> 40:37.800
 And that was a case where I actually

40:37.800 --> 40:41.040
 worked on a program that touches billions of people

40:41.040 --> 40:41.680
 every day.

40:41.680 --> 40:43.480
 And so when I said I worked on GPS,

40:43.480 --> 40:45.240
 everybody knew what I was talking about,

40:45.240 --> 40:47.800
 even though they didn't maybe appreciate the technical

40:47.800 --> 40:51.320
 challenges that went into that.

40:51.320 --> 40:54.960
 But I'll tell you, I got a briefing one time

40:54.960 --> 40:57.400
 from a major in the Air Force.

40:57.400 --> 41:01.640
 And he said, I go by call sign GIMP.

41:01.640 --> 41:04.320
 GPS is my passion.

41:04.320 --> 41:05.720
 I love GPS.

41:05.720 --> 41:08.960
 And he was involved in the operational test of the system.

41:08.960 --> 41:11.680
 He said, I was out in Iraq.

41:11.680 --> 41:17.280
 And I was on a helicopter, Black Hawk helicopter.

41:17.280 --> 41:21.440
 And I was bringing back a sergeant and a handful of troops

41:21.440 --> 41:23.800
 from a deployed location.

41:23.800 --> 41:26.600
 And he said, my job is GPS.

41:26.600 --> 41:27.800
 So I asked that sergeant.

41:27.800 --> 41:31.360
 And he's beaten down and half asleep.

41:31.360 --> 41:34.080
 And I said, what do you think about GPS?

41:34.080 --> 41:35.120
 And he brightened up.

41:35.120 --> 41:35.920
 His eyes lit up.

41:35.920 --> 41:39.240
 And he said, well, GPS, that brings me and my troops home

41:39.240 --> 41:39.960
 every day.

41:39.960 --> 41:41.080
 I love GPS.

41:41.080 --> 41:43.760
 And that's the kind of story where it's like, OK,

41:43.760 --> 41:46.440
 I'm really making a difference here in the kind of work.

41:46.440 --> 41:48.920
 So that mission piece is really important.

41:48.920 --> 41:51.720
 The last thing I'll say is, and this

41:51.720 --> 41:54.840
 gets to some of these questions around advanced

41:54.840 --> 41:59.560
 technologies, they're not just airplanes and spacecraft

41:59.560 --> 41:59.960
 anymore.

41:59.960 --> 42:02.760
 For people who are excited about advanced software

42:02.760 --> 42:06.040
 capabilities, about AI, about bringing machine learning,

42:06.040 --> 42:10.120
 these are the things that we're doing to exponentially

42:10.120 --> 42:13.120
 increase the mission capabilities that

42:13.120 --> 42:14.280
 go on those platforms.

42:14.280 --> 42:15.920
 And those are the kinds of things I think

42:15.920 --> 42:18.400
 are more and more visible to the public.

42:18.400 --> 42:21.440
 Yeah, I think autonomy, especially in flight,

42:21.440 --> 42:23.880
 is super exciting.

42:23.880 --> 42:28.040
 Do you see a day, here we go, back into philosophy,

42:28.040 --> 42:35.120
 a future when most fighter jets will be highly autonomous

42:35.120 --> 42:37.720
 to a degree where a human doesn't need

42:37.720 --> 42:40.640
 to be in the cockpit in almost all cases?

42:40.640 --> 42:43.520
 Well, I mean, that's a world that to a certain extent,

42:43.520 --> 42:44.240
 we're in today.

42:44.240 --> 42:47.800
 Now, these are remotely piloted aircraft, to be sure.

42:47.800 --> 42:53.920
 But we have hundreds of thousands of flight hours a year now

42:53.920 --> 42:56.240
 in remotely piloted aircraft.

42:56.240 --> 43:00.720
 And then if you take the F 35, I mean,

43:00.720 --> 43:04.640
 there are huge layers, I guess, in levels of autonomy

43:04.640 --> 43:10.040
 built into that aircraft so that the pilot is essentially

43:10.040 --> 43:13.280
 more of a mission manager rather than doing

43:13.280 --> 43:16.560
 the data, the second to second elements of flying

43:16.560 --> 43:17.160
 the aircraft.

43:17.160 --> 43:19.920
 So in some ways, it's the easiest aircraft in the world

43:19.920 --> 43:20.840
 to fly.

43:20.840 --> 43:22.480
 I'm kind of a funny story on that.

43:22.480 --> 43:27.280
 So I don't know if you know how aircraft carrier landings work.

43:27.280 --> 43:30.760
 But basically, there's what's called a tail hook,

43:30.760 --> 43:33.760
 and it catches wires on the deck of the carrier.

43:33.760 --> 43:39.360
 And that's what brings the aircraft to a screeching halt.

43:39.360 --> 43:41.800
 And there's typically three of these wires.

43:41.800 --> 43:43.480
 So if you miss the first, the second one,

43:43.480 --> 43:45.920
 you catch the next one, right?

43:45.920 --> 43:49.280
 And we got a little criticism.

43:49.280 --> 43:50.880
 I don't know how true this story is,

43:50.880 --> 43:52.360
 but we got a little criticism.

43:52.360 --> 43:56.200
 The F 35 is so perfect, it always gets the second wires.

43:56.200 --> 44:00.880
 We're wearing out the wire because it always hits that one.

44:00.880 --> 44:04.600
 But that's the kind of autonomy that just makes these,

44:04.600 --> 44:06.880
 essentially up levels what the human is doing

44:06.880 --> 44:08.520
 to more of that mission manager.

44:08.520 --> 44:12.040
 So much of that landing by the F 35 is autonomous.

44:12.040 --> 44:14.000
 Well, it's just the control systems

44:14.000 --> 44:17.960
 are such that you really have dialed out the variability

44:17.960 --> 44:19.720
 that comes with all the environmental conditions.

44:19.720 --> 44:20.800
 You're wearing it out.

44:20.800 --> 44:24.320
 So my point is, to a certain extent,

44:24.320 --> 44:27.320
 that world is here today.

44:27.320 --> 44:30.000
 Do I think that we're going to see a day anytime soon

44:30.000 --> 44:31.840
 when there are no humans in the cockpit?

44:31.840 --> 44:33.320
 I don't believe that.

44:33.320 --> 44:36.680
 But I do think we're going to see much more human machine

44:36.680 --> 44:38.760
 teaming, and we're going to see that much more

44:38.760 --> 44:40.480
 at the tactical edge.

44:40.480 --> 44:41.480
 And we did a demo.

44:41.480 --> 44:43.760
 You asked about what the Skunkworks is doing these days.

44:43.760 --> 44:46.200
 And so this is something I can talk about.

44:46.200 --> 44:51.200
 But we did a demo with the Air Force Research Laboratory.

44:51.200 --> 44:52.600
 We called it HAV Raider.

44:52.600 --> 44:59.760
 And so using an F 16 as an autonomous wingman,

44:59.760 --> 45:02.480
 and we demonstrated all kinds of maneuvers

45:02.480 --> 45:06.280
 and various mission scenarios with the autonomous F 16

45:06.280 --> 45:09.640
 being that so called loyal or trusted wingman.

45:09.640 --> 45:11.320
 And so those are the kinds of things

45:11.320 --> 45:15.400
 that we've shown what is possible now,

45:15.400 --> 45:18.960
 given that you've upleveled that pilot to be a mission manager.

45:18.960 --> 45:22.280
 Now they can control multiple other aircraft,

45:22.280 --> 45:25.000
 they can almost as extensions of your own aircraft

45:25.000 --> 45:27.160
 flying alongside with you.

45:27.160 --> 45:30.240
 So that's another example of how this is really

45:30.240 --> 45:31.560
 coming to fruition.

45:31.560 --> 45:35.120
 And then I mentioned the landings,

45:35.120 --> 45:38.080
 but think about just the implications

45:38.080 --> 45:39.800
 for humans and flight safety.

45:39.800 --> 45:41.800
 And this goes a little bit back to the discussion

45:41.800 --> 45:45.720
 we were having about how do you continuously improve

45:45.720 --> 45:48.920
 the level of safety through automation

45:48.920 --> 45:52.120
 while working through the complexities that automation

45:52.120 --> 45:53.320
 introduces.

45:53.320 --> 45:55.520
 So one of the challenges that you have in high performance

45:55.520 --> 45:57.480
 fighter aircraft is what's called Glock.

45:57.480 --> 45:59.960
 So this is G induced loss of consciousness.

45:59.960 --> 46:02.800
 So you pull 9Gs, you're wearing a pressure suit,

46:02.800 --> 46:05.760
 that's not enough to keep the blood going to your brain,

46:05.760 --> 46:07.760
 you black out.

46:07.760 --> 46:12.320
 And of course, that's bad if you happen to be flying low,

46:12.320 --> 46:17.520
 near the deck, and in an obstacle or terrain environment.

46:17.520 --> 46:22.400
 And so we developed a system in our aeronautics division

46:22.400 --> 46:26.040
 called Auto GCAS, so Autonomous Ground Collision Avoidance

46:26.040 --> 46:27.400
 System.

46:27.400 --> 46:30.080
 And we built that into the F16.

46:30.080 --> 46:33.000
 It's actually saved seven aircraft, eight pilots already.

46:33.000 --> 46:35.840
 And the relatively short time it's been deployed,

46:35.840 --> 46:39.320
 it was so successful that the Air Force said,

46:39.320 --> 46:41.480
 hey, we need to have this in the F35 right away.

46:41.480 --> 46:46.400
 So we've actually done testing of that now in the F35.

46:46.400 --> 46:50.200
 And we've also integrated an autonomous air collision

46:50.200 --> 46:51.000
 avoidance system.

46:51.000 --> 46:53.000
 So I think the air to air problem.

46:53.000 --> 46:56.000
 So now it's the integrated collision avoidance system.

46:56.000 --> 46:58.760
 But these are the kinds of capabilities.

46:58.760 --> 46:59.920
 I wouldn't call them AI.

46:59.920 --> 47:04.040
 I mean, they're very sophisticated models

47:04.040 --> 47:08.080
 of the aircraft's dynamics coupled with the terrain models

47:08.080 --> 47:12.240
 to be able to predict when essentially the pilot is

47:12.240 --> 47:14.840
 doing something that is going to take the aircraft into,

47:14.840 --> 47:18.120
 or the pilot's not doing something in this case.

47:18.120 --> 47:23.280
 But it just gives you an example of how autonomy can be really

47:23.280 --> 47:25.960
 a lifesaver in today's world.

47:25.960 --> 47:29.160
 It's like an autonomous automated emergency

47:29.160 --> 47:30.520
 braking in cars.

47:30.520 --> 47:35.080
 But is there any exploration of perception of, for example,

47:35.080 --> 47:39.640
 detecting a Glock that the pilot is out,

47:39.640 --> 47:42.960
 so as opposed to perceiving the external environment

47:42.960 --> 47:46.000
 to infer that the pilot is out, but actually perceiving

47:46.000 --> 47:47.320
 the pilot directly?

47:47.320 --> 47:48.880
 Yeah, this is one of those cases where

47:48.880 --> 47:52.040
 you'd like to not take action if you think the pilot's there.

47:52.040 --> 47:54.160
 And it's almost like systems that try

47:54.160 --> 47:56.880
 to detect if a driver is falling asleep on the road,

47:56.880 --> 48:00.000
 right, with limited success.

48:00.000 --> 48:03.400
 So I mean, this is what I call the system of last resort,

48:03.400 --> 48:06.880
 right, where if the aircraft has determined

48:06.880 --> 48:10.880
 that it's going into the terrain, get it out of there.

48:10.880 --> 48:12.960
 And this is not something that we're just

48:12.960 --> 48:15.680
 doing in the aircraft world.

48:15.680 --> 48:18.600
 And I wanted to highlight, we have a technology we call Matrix,

48:18.600 --> 48:21.960
 but this is developed at Sikorsky Innovations.

48:21.960 --> 48:26.080
 The whole idea there is what we call optimal piloting,

48:26.080 --> 48:30.560
 so not optional piloting or unpiloted,

48:30.560 --> 48:32.240
 but optimal piloting.

48:32.240 --> 48:35.880
 So an FAA certified system, so you

48:35.880 --> 48:37.400
 have a high degree of confidence.

48:37.400 --> 48:40.560
 It's generally pretty deterministic,

48:40.560 --> 48:43.880
 so we know that it'll do in different situations,

48:43.880 --> 48:49.240
 but effectively be able to fly a mission with two pilots,

48:49.240 --> 48:51.560
 one pilot, no pilots.

48:51.560 --> 48:56.720
 And you can think of it almost as like a dial of the level

48:56.720 --> 48:59.480
 of autonomy that you want, so it's

48:59.480 --> 49:01.320
 running in the background at all times

49:01.320 --> 49:04.040
 and able to pick up tasks, whether it's

49:04.040 --> 49:10.160
 sort of autopilot kinds of tasks or more sophisticated path

49:10.160 --> 49:12.040
 planning kinds of activities.

49:12.040 --> 49:15.200
 To be able to do things like, for example, land on an oil

49:15.200 --> 49:19.480
 rig in the North Sea in bad weather, zero, zero conditions.

49:19.480 --> 49:20.880
 And you can imagine, of course, there's

49:20.880 --> 49:24.560
 a lot of military utility to capability like that.

49:24.560 --> 49:26.480
 You could have an aircraft that you

49:26.480 --> 49:28.280
 want to send out for a crewed mission,

49:28.280 --> 49:31.880
 but then at night, if you want to use it to deliver supplies

49:31.880 --> 49:35.600
 in an unmanned mode, that could be done as well.

49:35.600 --> 49:39.960
 And so there's clear advantages there.

49:39.960 --> 49:41.840
 But think about on the commercial side,

49:41.840 --> 49:44.560
 if you're an aircraft taken, you're

49:44.560 --> 49:46.080
 going to fly out to this oil rig.

49:46.080 --> 49:48.000
 If you get out there and you can't land,

49:48.000 --> 49:51.200
 then you've got to bring all those people back, reschedule

49:51.200 --> 49:53.080
 another flight, pay the overtime for the crew

49:53.080 --> 49:55.280
 that you just brought back because they didn't get what

49:55.280 --> 49:57.240
 they were going to pay for the overtime for the folks that

49:57.240 --> 49:58.640
 are out there on the oil rig.

49:58.640 --> 50:00.680
 This is real economic.

50:00.680 --> 50:03.480
 These are dollars and cents kinds of advantages

50:03.480 --> 50:06.000
 that we're bringing in the commercial world as well.

50:06.000 --> 50:09.120
 So this is a difficult question from the AI space

50:09.120 --> 50:11.600
 that I would love it if we were able to comment.

50:11.600 --> 50:15.360
 So a lot of this autonomy in AI you've mentioned just now

50:15.360 --> 50:17.040
 has this empowering effect.

50:17.040 --> 50:20.400
 One is the last resort, it keeps you safe.

50:20.400 --> 50:25.200
 The other is there's with the teaming and in general,

50:25.200 --> 50:29.120
 assistive AI.

50:29.120 --> 50:33.160
 And I think there's always a race.

50:33.160 --> 50:36.960
 So the world is full of the world is complex.

50:36.960 --> 50:41.160
 It's full of bad actors.

50:41.160 --> 50:43.600
 So there's often a race to make sure

50:43.600 --> 50:48.960
 that we keep this country safe.

50:48.960 --> 50:52.120
 But with AI, there is a concern that it's

50:52.120 --> 50:55.080
 a slightly different race.

50:55.080 --> 50:56.760
 There's a lot of people in the AI space

50:56.760 --> 50:59.600
 that are concerned about the AI arms race.

50:59.600 --> 51:02.280
 That as opposed to the United States

51:02.280 --> 51:05.400
 becoming having the best technology

51:05.400 --> 51:09.160
 and therefore keeping us safe, even we lose ability

51:09.160 --> 51:11.520
 to keep control of it.

51:11.520 --> 51:16.800
 So the AI arms race getting away from all of us humans.

51:16.800 --> 51:19.440
 So do you share this worry?

51:19.440 --> 51:21.080
 Do you share this concern when we're

51:21.080 --> 51:23.400
 talking about military applications

51:23.400 --> 51:26.520
 that too much control and decision making

51:26.520 --> 51:31.640
 capabilities giving to software or AI?

51:31.640 --> 51:34.120
 Well, I don't see it happening today.

51:34.120 --> 51:38.040
 And in fact, this is something from a policy perspective.

51:38.040 --> 51:39.920
 It's obviously a very dynamic space.

51:39.920 --> 51:42.800
 But the Department of Defense has put quite a bit of thought

51:42.800 --> 51:44.280
 into that.

51:44.280 --> 51:46.560
 And maybe before talking about the policy,

51:46.560 --> 51:48.920
 I'll just talk about some of the why.

51:48.920 --> 51:52.640
 And you alluded to it being sort of a complicated and a little

51:52.640 --> 51:54.040
 bit scary world out there.

51:54.040 --> 51:57.280
 But there's some big things happening today.

51:57.280 --> 52:00.600
 You hear a lot of talk now about a return to great powers

52:00.600 --> 52:05.400
 competition, particularly around China and Russia with the US.

52:05.400 --> 52:09.400
 But there are some other big players out there as well.

52:09.400 --> 52:13.400
 And what we've seen is the deployment

52:13.400 --> 52:20.480
 of some very, I'd say, concerning new weapons systems,

52:20.480 --> 52:24.520
 particularly with Russia and breaching some of the IRBM,

52:24.520 --> 52:26.040
 intermediate range ballistic missile

52:26.040 --> 52:29.480
 treaties that's been in the news a lot.

52:29.480 --> 52:33.640
 The building of islands, artificial islands in the South

52:33.640 --> 52:38.720
 China Sea by the Chinese, and then arming those islands.

52:38.720 --> 52:42.880
 The annexation of Crimea by Russia,

52:42.880 --> 52:44.800
 the invasion of Ukraine.

52:44.800 --> 52:47.160
 So there's some pretty scary things.

52:47.160 --> 52:51.640
 And then you add on top of that, the North Korean threat has

52:51.640 --> 52:52.960
 certainly not gone away.

52:52.960 --> 52:56.680
 There's a lot going on in the Middle East with Iran in particular.

52:56.680 --> 53:02.360
 And we see this global terrorism threat has not abated, right?

53:02.360 --> 53:06.080
 So there are a lot of reasons to look for technology

53:06.080 --> 53:08.160
 to assist with those problems, whether it's

53:08.160 --> 53:11.240
 AI or other technologies like hypersonage, which

53:11.240 --> 53:13.000
 was which we discussed.

53:13.000 --> 53:17.280
 So now, let me give just a couple of hypotheticals.

53:17.280 --> 53:22.320
 So people react sort of in the second time frame, right?

53:22.320 --> 53:27.760
 You're photon hitting your eye to a movement

53:27.760 --> 53:30.600
 is on the order of a few tenths of a second

53:30.600 --> 53:34.440
 kinds of processing times.

53:34.440 --> 53:38.240
 Roughly speaking, computers are operating

53:38.240 --> 53:41.560
 in the nanosecond time scale, right?

53:41.560 --> 53:44.640
 So just to bring home what that means,

53:44.640 --> 53:50.640
 a nanosecond to a second is like a second to 32 years.

53:50.640 --> 53:53.920
 So seconds on the battlefield, in that sense,

53:53.920 --> 53:56.600
 literally are lifetimes.

53:56.600 --> 54:01.920
 And so if you can bring an autonomous or AI enabled

54:01.920 --> 54:05.480
 capability that will enable the human to shrink,

54:05.480 --> 54:07.480
 maybe you've heard the term the OODA loop.

54:07.480 --> 54:12.120
 So this whole idea that a typical battlefield decision

54:12.120 --> 54:15.800
 is characterized by observe.

54:15.800 --> 54:19.040
 So information comes in, orient.

54:19.040 --> 54:21.240
 What does that mean in the context?

54:21.240 --> 54:23.040
 Decide, what do I do about it?

54:23.040 --> 54:25.160
 And then act, take that action.

54:25.160 --> 54:27.320
 If you can use these capabilities

54:27.320 --> 54:30.400
 to compress that OODA loop to stay

54:30.400 --> 54:32.200
 inside what your adversary is doing,

54:32.200 --> 54:37.640
 that's an incredible, powerful force on the battlefield.

54:37.640 --> 54:39.120
 That's a really nice way to put it,

54:39.120 --> 54:41.680
 that the role of AI in computing in general

54:41.680 --> 54:46.000
 has a lot to benefit from just decreasing from 32 years

54:46.000 --> 54:49.680
 to one second, as opposed to on the scale of seconds

54:49.680 --> 54:51.480
 and minutes and hours making decisions

54:51.480 --> 54:53.400
 that humans are better at making.

54:53.400 --> 54:54.960
 And it actually goes the other way, too.

54:54.960 --> 54:57.160
 So that's on the short time scale.

54:57.160 --> 55:00.600
 So humans kind of work in the one second, two seconds

55:00.600 --> 55:01.520
 to eight hours.

55:01.520 --> 55:04.320
 After eight hours, you get tired.

55:04.320 --> 55:07.480
 You got to go to the bathroom, whatever the case might be.

55:07.480 --> 55:09.720
 So there's this whole range of other things.

55:09.720 --> 55:16.560
 Think about surveillance and guarding facilities.

55:16.560 --> 55:20.480
 Think about moving material, logistics, sustainment.

55:20.480 --> 55:23.280
 A lot of these what they call dull, dirty, and dangerous

55:23.280 --> 55:26.160
 things that you need to have sustained activity,

55:26.160 --> 55:28.000
 but it's sort of beyond the length of time

55:28.000 --> 55:30.920
 that a human can practically do as well.

55:30.920 --> 55:34.200
 So there's this range of things that

55:34.200 --> 55:39.080
 are critical in military and defense applications

55:39.080 --> 55:43.200
 that AI and autonomy are particularly well suited to.

55:43.200 --> 55:45.840
 Now, the interesting question that you brought up

55:45.840 --> 55:49.840
 is, OK, how do you make sure that stays within human control?

55:49.840 --> 55:52.320
 So that was the context for the policy.

55:52.320 --> 55:56.160
 And so there is a DOD directive called 3,000.09,

55:56.160 --> 55:58.520
 because that's the way we name stuff in this world.

56:01.720 --> 56:04.240
 And I'd say it's well worth reading.

56:04.240 --> 56:07.240
 It's only a couple pages long, but it makes some key points.

56:07.240 --> 56:09.480
 And it's really around making sure

56:09.480 --> 56:14.840
 that there's human agency and control over use

56:14.840 --> 56:20.240
 of semi autonomous and autonomous weapons systems,

56:20.240 --> 56:23.800
 making sure that these systems are tested, verified,

56:23.800 --> 56:28.200
 and evaluated in realistic, real world type scenarios,

56:28.200 --> 56:29.960
 making sure that the people are actually

56:29.960 --> 56:32.440
 trained on how to use them, making sure

56:32.440 --> 56:36.160
 that the systems have human machine interfaces that

56:36.160 --> 56:39.320
 can show what state they're in and what kinds of decisions

56:39.320 --> 56:41.080
 they're making, making sure that you

56:41.080 --> 56:45.800
 establish doctrine and tactics and techniques and procedures

56:45.800 --> 56:48.240
 for the use of these kinds of systems.

56:48.240 --> 56:52.880
 And so, and by the way, I mean, none of this is easy,

56:52.880 --> 56:56.480
 but I'm just trying to lay kind of the picture of how

56:56.480 --> 56:59.080
 the US has said, this is the way we're

56:59.080 --> 57:02.600
 going to treat AI and autonomous systems,

57:02.600 --> 57:04.600
 that it's not a free for all.

57:04.600 --> 57:08.120
 And like there are rules of war and rules of engagement

57:08.120 --> 57:10.600
 with other kinds of systems, think chemical weapons,

57:10.600 --> 57:13.080
 biological weapons, we need to think

57:13.080 --> 57:15.760
 about the same sorts of implications.

57:15.760 --> 57:17.920
 And this is something that's really important for Lockheed

57:17.920 --> 57:20.680
 Martin, I mean, obviously we are 100%

57:20.680 --> 57:26.400
 complying with our customer and the policies and regulations.

57:26.400 --> 57:30.760
 But I mean, AI is an incredible enabler, say,

57:30.760 --> 57:32.360
 within the walls of Lockheed Martin

57:32.360 --> 57:35.640
 in terms of improving production efficiency,

57:35.640 --> 57:38.240
 helping engineers doing generative design,

57:38.240 --> 57:42.040
 improving logistics, driving down energy costs.

57:42.040 --> 57:44.320
 I mean, there's so many applications.

57:44.320 --> 57:47.440
 But we're also very interested in some

57:47.440 --> 57:50.000
 of the elements of ethical application

57:50.000 --> 57:51.800
 within Lockheed Martin.

57:51.800 --> 57:56.720
 So we need to make sure that things like privacy is taken care

57:56.720 --> 57:59.240
 of, that we do everything we can to drive out

57:59.240 --> 58:03.440
 bias in AI enabled kinds of systems,

58:03.440 --> 58:06.280
 that we make sure that humans are involved in decisions

58:06.280 --> 58:10.600
 that we're not just delegating accountability to algorithms.

58:10.600 --> 58:14.480
 And so for us, I talked about culture before,

58:14.480 --> 58:17.840
 and it comes back to sort of the Lockheed Martin culture

58:17.840 --> 58:19.200
 and our core values.

58:19.200 --> 58:21.680
 And so it's pretty simple for us to do what's right,

58:21.680 --> 58:24.200
 respect others, perform with excellence.

58:24.200 --> 58:27.880
 And now how do we tie that back to the ethical principles

58:27.880 --> 58:31.960
 that will govern how AI is used within Lockheed Martin?

58:31.960 --> 58:35.520
 And we actually have a world, so you might not know this,

58:35.520 --> 58:37.680
 but they're actually awards for ethics programs.

58:37.680 --> 58:41.400
 Lockheed Martin's had a recognized ethics program

58:41.400 --> 58:43.600
 for many years, and this is one of the things

58:43.600 --> 58:47.760
 that our ethics team is working with our engineering team on.

58:47.760 --> 58:51.240
 One of the miracles to me, perhaps a layman,

58:51.240 --> 58:53.680
 again, I was born in the Soviet Union,

58:53.680 --> 58:58.400
 so I have echoes, at least in my family history of World War

58:58.400 --> 59:02.080
 II and the Cold War, do you have a sense

59:02.080 --> 59:06.120
 of why human civilization has not destroyed itself

59:06.120 --> 59:09.120
 through nuclear war, so nuclear deterrence?

59:09.120 --> 59:12.760
 And thinking about the future, this technology

59:12.760 --> 59:15.080
 of our role to play here, and what

59:15.080 --> 59:20.440
 is the long term future of nuclear deterrence look like?

59:20.440 --> 59:25.760
 Yeah, this is one of those hard, hard questions.

59:25.760 --> 59:28.960
 And I should note that Lockheed Martin is both proud

59:28.960 --> 59:31.480
 and privileged to play a part in multiple legs

59:31.480 --> 59:35.880
 of our nuclear and strategic deterrent systems

59:35.880 --> 59:41.800
 like the Trident submarine launch ballistic missiles.

59:41.800 --> 59:47.320
 You talk about, is there still a possibility

59:47.320 --> 59:49.080
 that human race could destroy itself?

59:49.080 --> 59:54.520
 I'd say that possibility is real, but interestingly,

59:54.520 --> 59:58.600
 in some sense, I think the strategic deterrence

59:58.600 --> 1:00:03.400
 have prevented the kinds of incredibly destructive world

1:00:03.400 --> 1:00:07.280
 wars that we saw in the first half of the 20th century.

1:00:07.280 --> 1:00:10.880
 Now, things have gotten more complicated since that time

1:00:10.880 --> 1:00:12.280
 and since the Cold War.

1:00:12.280 --> 1:00:16.560
 It is more of a multipolar, great powers world today.

1:00:16.560 --> 1:00:19.000
 Just to give you an example, back then,

1:00:19.000 --> 1:00:21.840
 there were in the Cold War timeframe

1:00:21.840 --> 1:00:24.160
 just a handful of nations that had ballistic missile

1:00:24.160 --> 1:00:25.960
 capability.

1:00:25.960 --> 1:00:28.200
 By last count, and this is a few years old,

1:00:28.200 --> 1:00:31.200
 there's over 70 nations today that have that,

1:00:31.200 --> 1:00:38.000
 similar kinds of numbers in terms of space based capabilities.

1:00:38.000 --> 1:00:42.520
 So the world has gotten more complex and more challenging

1:00:42.520 --> 1:00:46.040
 and the threats, I think, have proliferated in ways

1:00:46.040 --> 1:00:49.480
 that we didn't expect.

1:00:49.480 --> 1:00:51.920
 The nation today is in the middle

1:00:51.920 --> 1:00:55.280
 of a recapitalization of our strategic deterrent.

1:00:55.280 --> 1:00:58.680
 I look at that as one of the most important things

1:00:58.680 --> 1:01:00.240
 that our nation can do.

1:01:00.240 --> 1:01:01.840
 What is involved in deterrence?

1:01:01.840 --> 1:01:08.000
 Is it being ready to attack?

1:01:08.000 --> 1:01:11.520
 Or is it the defensive systems that catch attacks?

1:01:11.520 --> 1:01:13.120
 A little bit of both, and so it's

1:01:13.120 --> 1:01:16.600
 a complicated game theoretical kind of program.

1:01:16.600 --> 1:01:23.280
 But ultimately, we are trying to prevent the use

1:01:23.280 --> 1:01:24.880
 of any of these weapons.

1:01:24.880 --> 1:01:28.000
 And the theory behind prevention is

1:01:28.000 --> 1:01:33.280
 that even if an adversary uses a weapon against you,

1:01:33.280 --> 1:01:37.600
 you have the capability to essentially strike back

1:01:37.600 --> 1:01:40.800
 and do harm to them that's unacceptable.

1:01:40.800 --> 1:01:44.880
 And so that will deter them from making use

1:01:44.880 --> 1:01:48.000
 of these weapons systems.

1:01:48.000 --> 1:01:50.760
 The deterrence calculus has changed, of course,

1:01:50.760 --> 1:01:56.320
 with more nations now having these kinds of weapons.

1:01:56.320 --> 1:01:59.120
 But I think from my perspective, it's

1:01:59.120 --> 1:02:05.000
 very important to maintain a strategic deterrent.

1:02:05.000 --> 1:02:08.760
 You have to have systems that you will know will work

1:02:08.760 --> 1:02:10.920
 when they're required to work.

1:02:10.920 --> 1:02:12.640
 And you know that they have to be

1:02:12.640 --> 1:02:16.440
 adaptable to a variety of different scenarios

1:02:16.440 --> 1:02:17.680
 in today's world.

1:02:17.680 --> 1:02:20.320
 And so that's what this recapitalization of systems

1:02:20.320 --> 1:02:23.200
 that were built over previous decades,

1:02:23.200 --> 1:02:26.640
 making sure that they are appropriate not just for today,

1:02:26.640 --> 1:02:29.080
 but for the decades to come.

1:02:29.080 --> 1:02:32.160
 So the other thing I'd really like to note

1:02:32.160 --> 1:02:40.120
 is strategic deterrence has a very different character today.

1:02:40.120 --> 1:02:42.360
 We used to think of weapons of mass destruction

1:02:42.360 --> 1:02:45.720
 in terms of nuclear, chemical, biological.

1:02:45.720 --> 1:02:48.640
 And today we have a cyber threat.

1:02:48.640 --> 1:02:54.320
 We've seen examples of the use of cyber weaponry.

1:02:54.320 --> 1:02:58.520
 And if you think about the possibilities

1:02:58.520 --> 1:03:03.880
 of using cyber capabilities or an adversary attacking the US

1:03:03.880 --> 1:03:07.560
 to take out things like critical infrastructure,

1:03:07.560 --> 1:03:12.840
 electrical grids, water systems, those

1:03:12.840 --> 1:03:16.280
 are scenarios that are strategic in nature

1:03:16.280 --> 1:03:19.040
 to the survival of a nation as well.

1:03:19.040 --> 1:03:23.000
 So that is the kind of world that we live in today.

1:03:23.000 --> 1:03:26.640
 And part of my hope on this is one

1:03:26.640 --> 1:03:30.840
 that we can also develop technological systems,

1:03:30.840 --> 1:03:33.640
 perhaps enabled by AI and autonomy,

1:03:33.640 --> 1:03:38.600
 that will allow us to contain and to fight back

1:03:38.600 --> 1:03:42.840
 against these kinds of new threats that were not

1:03:42.840 --> 1:03:46.280
 conceived when we first developed our strategic deterrence.

1:03:46.280 --> 1:03:48.360
 Yeah, I know that Lockheed is involved in cyber.

1:03:48.360 --> 1:03:52.040
 So I saw that you mentioned that.

1:03:52.040 --> 1:03:54.440
 It's an incredibly change.

1:03:54.440 --> 1:03:57.360
 Nuclear almost seems easier than cyber,

1:03:57.360 --> 1:03:58.680
 because there's so many attack.

1:03:58.680 --> 1:04:01.720
 There's so many ways that cyber can evolve

1:04:01.720 --> 1:04:03.400
 in such an uncertain future.

1:04:03.400 --> 1:04:05.800
 But talking about engineering with a mission,

1:04:05.800 --> 1:04:09.680
 I mean, in this case, your engineering systems

1:04:09.680 --> 1:04:13.880
 that basically save the world.

1:04:13.880 --> 1:04:18.040
 Well, like I said, we're privileged to work

1:04:18.040 --> 1:04:20.000
 on some very challenging problems

1:04:20.000 --> 1:04:23.360
 for very critical customers here in the US

1:04:23.360 --> 1:04:26.920
 and with our allies abroad as well.

1:04:26.920 --> 1:04:30.800
 Lockheed builds both military and nonmilitary systems.

1:04:30.800 --> 1:04:32.960
 And perhaps the future of Lockheed

1:04:32.960 --> 1:04:35.360
 may be more in nonmilitary applications

1:04:35.360 --> 1:04:38.320
 if you talk about space and beyond.

1:04:38.320 --> 1:04:41.480
 I say that as a preface to a difficult question.

1:04:41.480 --> 1:04:46.200
 So President Eisenhower in 1961 in his farewell address

1:04:46.200 --> 1:04:49.080
 talked about the military industrial complex

1:04:49.080 --> 1:04:52.800
 and that it shouldn't grow beyond what is needed.

1:04:52.800 --> 1:04:55.880
 So what are your thoughts on those words

1:04:55.880 --> 1:04:58.800
 on the military industrial complex,

1:04:58.800 --> 1:05:04.080
 on the concern of growth of their developments

1:05:04.080 --> 1:05:07.120
 beyond what may be needed?

1:05:07.120 --> 1:05:12.400
 That what may be needed is a critical phrase, of course.

1:05:12.400 --> 1:05:14.960
 And I think it is worth pointing out, as you noted,

1:05:14.960 --> 1:05:19.360
 that Lockheed Martin, we're in a number of commercial businesses

1:05:19.360 --> 1:05:23.960
 from energy to space to commercial aircraft.

1:05:23.960 --> 1:05:28.640
 And so I wouldn't neglect the importance

1:05:28.640 --> 1:05:32.160
 of those parts of our business as well.

1:05:32.160 --> 1:05:34.480
 I think the world is dynamic.

1:05:34.480 --> 1:05:38.880
 And there was a time, it doesn't seem that long ago to me,

1:05:38.880 --> 1:05:41.840
 was I was a graduate student here at MIT

1:05:41.840 --> 1:05:43.320
 and we were talking about the peace

1:05:43.320 --> 1:05:45.760
 dividend at the end of the Cold War.

1:05:45.760 --> 1:05:49.200
 If you look at expenditure on military systems

1:05:49.200 --> 1:05:55.640
 as a fraction of GDP, we're far below peak levels of the past.

1:05:55.640 --> 1:05:59.120
 And to me, at least, it looks like a time

1:05:59.120 --> 1:06:02.920
 where you're seeing global threats changing in a way that

1:06:02.920 --> 1:06:06.920
 would warrant relevant investments

1:06:06.920 --> 1:06:10.920
 in defensive capabilities.

1:06:10.920 --> 1:06:18.520
 The other thing I'd note, for military and defensive systems,

1:06:18.520 --> 1:06:21.440
 it's not quite a free market, right?

1:06:21.440 --> 1:06:25.720
 We don't sell to people on the street.

1:06:25.720 --> 1:06:29.440
 And that warrants a very close partnership

1:06:29.440 --> 1:06:34.280
 between, I'd say, the customers and the people that design,

1:06:34.280 --> 1:06:39.200
 build, and maintain these systems because

1:06:39.200 --> 1:06:44.920
 of the very unique nature, the very difficult requirements,

1:06:44.920 --> 1:06:49.440
 the very great importance on safety

1:06:49.440 --> 1:06:54.560
 and on operating the way they're intended every time.

1:06:54.560 --> 1:06:57.680
 And so that does create, and it's frankly

1:06:57.680 --> 1:06:59.560
 one of Lockheed Martin's great strengths

1:06:59.560 --> 1:07:01.920
 is that we have this expertise built up

1:07:01.920 --> 1:07:05.440
 over many years in partnership with our customers

1:07:05.440 --> 1:07:08.360
 to be able to design and build these systems that

1:07:08.360 --> 1:07:11.600
 meet these very unique mission needs.

1:07:11.600 --> 1:07:14.400
 Yeah, because building those systems very costly,

1:07:14.400 --> 1:07:16.120
 there's very little room for mistake.

1:07:16.120 --> 1:07:19.000
 I mean, it's just Ben Rich's book and so on

1:07:19.000 --> 1:07:20.360
 just tells the story.

1:07:20.360 --> 1:07:22.440
 It's nowhere I can just reading it.

1:07:22.440 --> 1:07:24.400
 If you're an engineer, it reads like a thriller.

1:07:24.400 --> 1:07:30.680
 OK, let's go back to space for a second.

1:07:30.680 --> 1:07:33.080
 I'm always happy to go back to space.

1:07:33.080 --> 1:07:38.320
 So a few quick, maybe out there, maybe fun questions,

1:07:38.320 --> 1:07:40.520
 maybe a little provocative.

1:07:40.520 --> 1:07:46.560
 What are your thoughts on the efforts of the new folks,

1:07:46.560 --> 1:07:48.840
 SpaceX and Elon Musk?

1:07:48.840 --> 1:07:50.880
 What are your thoughts about what Elon is doing?

1:07:50.880 --> 1:07:55.320
 Do you see him as competition, do you enjoy competition?

1:07:55.320 --> 1:07:56.440
 What are your thoughts?

1:07:56.440 --> 1:08:00.160
 First of all, certainly Elon, I'd

1:08:00.160 --> 1:08:03.200
 say SpaceX and some of his other ventures

1:08:03.200 --> 1:08:08.160
 are definitely a competitive force in the space industry.

1:08:08.160 --> 1:08:09.880
 And do we like competition?

1:08:09.880 --> 1:08:11.520
 Yeah, we do.

1:08:11.520 --> 1:08:15.480
 And we think we're very strong competitors.

1:08:15.480 --> 1:08:20.800
 I think competition is what the US is founded on

1:08:20.800 --> 1:08:24.680
 in a lot of ways and always coming up with a better way.

1:08:24.680 --> 1:08:29.480
 And I think it's really important to continue

1:08:29.480 --> 1:08:33.000
 to have fresh eyes coming in, new innovation.

1:08:33.000 --> 1:08:35.480
 I do think it's important to have level playing fields.

1:08:35.480 --> 1:08:38.760
 And so you want to make sure that you're not

1:08:38.760 --> 1:08:42.800
 giving different requirements to different players.

1:08:42.800 --> 1:08:47.560
 But I tell people, I spent a lot of time at places like MIT.

1:08:47.560 --> 1:08:50.600
 I'm going to be at the MIT Beaver Works Summer Institute

1:08:50.600 --> 1:08:52.120
 over the weekend here.

1:08:52.120 --> 1:08:55.040
 And I tell people, this is the most exciting time

1:08:55.040 --> 1:08:58.400
 to be in the space business in my entire life.

1:08:58.400 --> 1:09:02.960
 And it is this explosion of new capabilities

1:09:02.960 --> 1:09:06.960
 that have been driven by things like the massive increase

1:09:06.960 --> 1:09:10.920
 in computing power, things like the massive increase

1:09:10.920 --> 1:09:15.120
 in comms capabilities, advanced and additive manufacturing,

1:09:15.120 --> 1:09:18.800
 are really bringing down the barriers to entry

1:09:18.800 --> 1:09:21.880
 in this field and it's driving just incredible innovation.

1:09:21.880 --> 1:09:23.600
 It's happening at startups, but it's also

1:09:23.600 --> 1:09:25.400
 happening at Lockheed Martin.

1:09:25.400 --> 1:09:27.600
 I did not realize this, but Lockheed Martin, working

1:09:27.600 --> 1:09:31.360
 with Stanford, actually built the first cubes that

1:09:31.360 --> 1:09:35.120
 was launched here out of the US that was called Quakesat.

1:09:35.120 --> 1:09:37.440
 And we did that with Stellar Solutions.

1:09:37.440 --> 1:09:41.640
 This was right around just after 2000, I guess.

1:09:41.640 --> 1:09:45.480
 And so we've been in that from the very beginning.

1:09:45.480 --> 1:09:50.080
 And I talked about some of these like Maya and Orion,

1:09:50.080 --> 1:09:54.760
 but we're in the middle of what we call smartsats and software

1:09:54.760 --> 1:09:58.800
 to find satellites that can essentially restructure and remap

1:09:58.800 --> 1:10:02.400
 their purpose, their mission on orbit

1:10:02.400 --> 1:10:06.520
 to give you almost unlimited flexibility for these satellites

1:10:06.520 --> 1:10:08.000
 over their lifetimes.

1:10:08.000 --> 1:10:10.200
 So those are just a couple of examples,

1:10:10.200 --> 1:10:13.440
 but yeah, this is a great time to be in space.

1:10:13.440 --> 1:10:14.360
 Absolutely.

1:10:14.360 --> 1:10:20.160
 So Wright Brothers flew for the first time 116 years ago.

1:10:20.160 --> 1:10:23.040
 So now we have supersonic stealth planes

1:10:23.040 --> 1:10:25.440
 and all the technology we've talked about.

1:10:25.440 --> 1:10:29.280
 What innovations, obviously you can't predict the future,

1:10:29.280 --> 1:10:32.440
 but do you see Lockheed in the next 100 years?

1:10:32.440 --> 1:10:36.800
 If you take that same leap, how will the world of technology

1:10:36.800 --> 1:10:37.840
 and engineering change?

1:10:37.840 --> 1:10:39.320
 I know it's an impossible question,

1:10:39.320 --> 1:10:42.920
 but nobody could have predicted that we could even

1:10:42.920 --> 1:10:45.800
 fly 120 years ago.

1:10:45.800 --> 1:10:50.640
 So what do you think is the edge of possibility

1:10:50.640 --> 1:10:52.680
 that we're going to be exploring in the next 100 years?

1:10:52.680 --> 1:10:55.440
 I don't know that there is an edge.

1:10:55.440 --> 1:11:00.760
 We've been around for almost that entire time, right?

1:11:00.760 --> 1:11:03.840
 The Lockheed Brothers and Glenn L. Martin

1:11:03.840 --> 1:11:07.960
 starting their companies in the basement of a church

1:11:07.960 --> 1:11:11.840
 and an old service station.

1:11:11.840 --> 1:11:14.240
 We're very different companies today

1:11:14.240 --> 1:11:15.720
 than we were back then, right?

1:11:15.720 --> 1:11:17.680
 And that's because we've continuously

1:11:17.680 --> 1:11:21.680
 reinvented ourselves over all of those decades.

1:11:21.680 --> 1:11:24.320
 I think it's fair to say, I know this for sure,

1:11:24.320 --> 1:11:27.840
 the world of the future, it's going to move faster,

1:11:27.840 --> 1:11:29.320
 it's going to be more connected,

1:11:29.320 --> 1:11:31.640
 it's going to be more autonomous,

1:11:31.640 --> 1:11:36.160
 and it's going to be more complex than it is today.

1:11:36.160 --> 1:11:39.680
 And so this is the world as a CTO of Lockheed Martin

1:11:39.680 --> 1:11:41.560
 that I think about, what are the technologies

1:11:41.560 --> 1:11:42.720
 that we have to invest in?

1:11:42.720 --> 1:11:45.480
 Whether it's things like AI and autonomy,

1:11:45.480 --> 1:11:47.280
 you can think about quantum computing,

1:11:47.280 --> 1:11:49.120
 which is an area that we've invested in

1:11:49.120 --> 1:11:53.520
 to try to stay ahead of these technological changes

1:11:53.520 --> 1:11:56.280
 and frankly, some of the threats that are out there.

1:11:56.280 --> 1:11:58.360
 And I believe that we're going to be out there

1:11:58.360 --> 1:12:00.840
 in the solar system, that we're going to be defending

1:12:00.840 --> 1:12:04.960
 and defending well against probably military threats

1:12:04.960 --> 1:12:08.120
 that nobody has even thought about today.

1:12:08.120 --> 1:12:12.400
 We are going to be, we're going to use these capabilities

1:12:12.400 --> 1:12:15.720
 to have far greater knowledge of our own planet,

1:12:15.720 --> 1:12:19.320
 the depths of the oceans, all the way to the upper reaches

1:12:19.320 --> 1:12:21.400
 of the atmosphere and everything out to the sun

1:12:21.400 --> 1:12:23.440
 and to the edge of the solar system.

1:12:23.440 --> 1:12:26.760
 So that's what I look forward to.

1:12:26.760 --> 1:12:30.840
 And I'm excited, I mean, just looking ahead

1:12:30.840 --> 1:12:33.360
 in the next decade or so to the steps

1:12:33.360 --> 1:12:35.320
 that I see ahead of us in that time.

1:12:35.320 --> 1:12:38.240
 I don't think there's a better place to end.

1:12:38.240 --> 1:12:39.600
 Okay, thank you so much.

1:12:39.600 --> 1:12:41.800
 Lex, it's been a real pleasure and sorry,

1:12:41.800 --> 1:12:43.400
 it took so long to get up here,

1:12:43.400 --> 1:13:05.680
 but glad we were able to make it happen.