Source: https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1972/jul/24/town-and-country-planning-amendment-bill
Timestamp: 2019-04-25 15:46:08+00:00

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My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered.
§ [No. 1] Clause 3, page 5, line 10, after (" may ") insert (" after consultation with the Lord Chancellor ").
My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 1. In dealing with Amendments Nos. 1, 2 and 3 we are dealing with the topic of 1132 the public examination of structure plans. The effect of Amendment No. 1 is to associate the Lord Chancellor formally with the Secretary of State in the making of any regulations governing the procedure to be followed at examinations in public of matters arising on structure plans. As the House will recall from our previous discussions on this Bill, the intention is that the procedure for the new " examinations in public " shall be conducted initially in accordance with a code of practice. This is to be evolved in the light of points made in Parliament and of the comments made by the wide range of bodies being consulted, including the Council on Tribunals, the local authority associations and the professional and amenity bodies concerned. The need for regulations can then be considered in the light of experience gained during the earliest examinations.
Against this background, I think I need say no more than that the case for the Amendment was made by the Chairman of the Council on Tribunals, Lady Burton of Coventry: that it was always our intention that the Lord Chancellor's view should be sought on the regulations; but that this Amendment recognises the special position of the Lord Chancellor in matters of procedure by formally associating him with the making of regulations under the clause.
My Lords, I am sure that my noble friend was unavoidably unable to be present to add one word of commendation about the fact that her view should have prevailed. In the absence of the noble Baroness, Lady Burton, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, on accepting her Amendment.
§ [No. 2] Clause 3, page 5, line 15, at end insert (", and the bodies and persons who may take part therein shall be such only as he may, whether before or during the course of the examination, in his discretion invite to do so: Provided that the person or persons holding the examination shall have power, exercisable either before or during the course of the examination, to invite additional bodies or persons to take part therein if it appears to him or them desirable to do so.") 1133 to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 2. This Amendment makes clear that the chairman of the panel has power to add to the list of those bodies and persons who the Secretary of State has invited to take part in the examination in public. This power may be exercised before the examination starts or during the course of it.
My Lords, it seems to me that this Amendment is more important than the noble Lord has given us to understand. When the House of Commons made this Amendment obviously there must have been an argument as to the bodies and the powers to be included. I do not know the sole reason for it, whether there is only one or a number, but surely the original clause was a little deficient in that it did not outline or make provision for the additional bodies or powers. I should be grateful to the noble Lord if he could tell noble Lords the reason why this Amendment was made in another place.
My Lords, during the progress of the Bill in Parliament, the consideration of the provisions for an examination in public on structure plans has led to very helpful and constructive discussions, particularly about the selection of matters to be examined and of participants in the examination. Many of the comments made by the wide range of bodies who were asked for views on a consultation document concentrated on these two features. It has in general been accepted that we should not try, at this stage, to lay down procedure for the examination in public by statute or in regulations: but that, because it was a new procedure, it should at the outset be set out in a code of practice which could be adapted more readily, as necessary, in the light of experience in the first few examinations. But particular interest, and some concern, was shown as to the selection of participants: accordingly this Amendment (to subsection (5) of Section 9, as set out in Clause 3) makes statutory provision for the panel holding the examination to have power to add to the list of 1134 those bodies or persons invited by the Secretary of State to take part in it.
My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 3. The effect of the Amendment is to require the Secretary of State to include an appropriate statement of reasons governning his decision on a structure plan in the decision letter on it. It had always been my right honourable friend's intention that his decision should be in the form of a reasoned decision letter. But the general statutory requirement as to the giving of reasons, on request, following an inquiry is contained in the Tribunals and Inquiries Act 1971. The proposed examination in public is not an " inquiry " within the terms of that Act. Since the examination in public is breaking new ground, in relation to a new form of plan (the structure plan), it is not appropriate to apply the Tribunals and Inquiries Act 1971 generally to it. Nor is the form of the requirement in the Act regarding the giving of reasons considered entirely appropriate to the particular circumstances in which an examination in public will be held.
The Government accordingly accepted, in response to the representations of the Council on Tribunals, whose chairman, as I have said, is Lady Burton of Coventry, that there should be an express requirement in the Bill, in terms which took account of the form and purpose of the examination in public and the nature of the decision itself, for the Secretary of State to give reasons for his decision on the structure plan. I beg to move.
My Lords, I would not dissent but I think the noble Lord will agree that when this Amendment was made it was regarded as very important that if you are going to make these 1135 decisions it would be a very good thing if you gave your reasons for so doing. To that extent I think this Amendment will be very much welcomed by noble Lords.
(b) any alterations to that plan, together with the Secretary of State's notices of approval hereof; " "
My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 4. Here we are moving into Amendments which relate to planning in London. There has been a good deal of recasting and I think it would be convenient if I invited noble Lords to consider Amendments 4 and 12 together. These two Amendments completely recast the London provisions, with an amended version of Clause 4 introducing an amended and new version of Schedule 1. It now takes the form of complete and self-contained replacement for Schedule 4 to the Act of 1971. There are only a few changes of substance which I will go into in a moment. It was found desirable when incorporating them into existing texts to redraft the whole of the provisions. This has enabled the draftsman to get rid of much of the legislation by reference which made the original 1136 Schedule rather complicated. The first Amendment of substance is that power is taken to approve the Greater London Development Plan in stages. This will give the Secretary of State a desirable measure of flexibility in considering the large report of the panel of inquiry which he hopes to receive later this year. There is already a power in relation to structure plans outside Greater London to approve a submitted structure plan in whole or in part with or without reservations.
The second point of substance is that the Bill, as it left your Lordships' House, prohibited the making of joint local plans for action areas, but on reconsideration the view has been taken that there is no justification for this restructuring and it is removed in the amended Schedule. A third point is that the G.L.C. and London borough councils will be enabled to start the preparation of local plans before the Greater London Development Plan is approved, though not to put them on deposit and carry out the other procedures leading to adoption until the Greater London Plan has been finally approved. This was always intended. Similar arrangements apply outside London. The new Schedule corrects an error in paragraph 7(a)(i) of the original Schedule 1. I do not think I need take up the time of the House with a more detailed exposition of these provisions, most of which result from the redrafting of the Schedule to avoid legislation by reference. If any of your Lordships wishes me to expand on any point I will do my best to deal with it. I beg to move.
My Lords, I have only two points to make. I agree with what the noble Lord has said. If this change gets rid of legislation by reference, it is a very good thing indeed. In all my experience in another place we were continually complaining that it was very difficult to understand the legislation before us because so much was done by reference. Indeed, there are always arguments in your Lordships' House, as well as in the other place, for consolidation, because people get so tired of having to legislate by reference. To that extent, the Amendment has done a very good job.
1137 We would also support the priority given for joint plans. It was a little foolish in the original Bill that this was prohibited. From all points of view I would submit that if adjacent local planning authorities could do this work jointly, the right to do so ought to be clearly seen, and to that extent we welcome the Amendment.
§ " .—(1) Section 58 of the Act of 1971 shall be amended by adding at the end of the following subsection:— (6) If it appears to the local planning authority to be urgent that a building preservation notice should come into force, they may, instead of serving the notice on the owner and occupier of the building to which it relates, affix the notice conspicuously to some object on the building; and this shall be treated for all the purposes of this section and of Schedule 11 to this Act as service of the said notice, in relation to which subsection (1)(b) of this section shall be taken to include a reference to this subsection.". (2) Section 48 of the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1969 shall be amended by adding at the end the following subsection:— (6) If it appears to the local planning authority to be urgent that a building preservation notice should come into force, they may, instead of serving the notice on the owner, lessee and occupier of the building to which it relates, affix the notice conspicuously to some object on the building; and this shall be treated for all the purposes of this section and of Schedule 4 to this Act as service of the said notice, in relation to which subsection (1)(b) of this section shall be taken to include a reference to this subsection."
My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 5. Now we move into the field of conservation, and I think it would be for the convenience of the House if we were to consider Amendment No. 14 with Amendment No. 5, though there are other Amendments on this topic. The effect of this Amendment, which amends both the English and the Scottish Acts, will be to enable a local planning authority in 1138 cases of urgency to effect service of a building preservation notice by affixing it to the building, instead of serving it on the owner and occupier (in Scotland, the owner, lessee and occupier) personally, as is required at present. Where a local planning authority consider that an unlisted building which is in danger of demolition or alteration in a way which would affect its character should be included in the list, they may serve a building preservation notice on the owner and other persons interested in the property and send a copy to the Secretary of State. The effect of the notice is to give the building all the protection of listing for a maximum period of six months while the Secretary of State considers whether he should add the building permanently to the list.
§ [No. 6] Clause 7, page 8, line 36, leave out from (" of ") to (" in") in line 37 and insert (" the buildings therein to which this section applies, or any one or more of those buildings, they may direct that the buildings or building ").
My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 6, which is still on the subject of conservation. I suggest that it would be convenient if we consider with it Amendment No. 8, which is a parallel Amendment applying to Scotland, and Amendment No. 13. Amendments Nos. 6 and 8 make it clear that a local planning authority may make a direction in relation to all the buildings in a conservation area rather than to specified individual buildings. They may wish to do this when all the buildings in a conservation area contribute to the character of the area, and for that reason their demolition should be controlled. Amendment No. 13 requires local authorities to keep a list of buildings included in directions made under clause 7.
My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons their Amendment No. 7. This Amendment still deals with conservation. Doubts have been expressed as to whether, as was intended, the existing provisions of Clause 7 would enable the Greater London Council (as well as the appropriate London Borough Council) to make a direction bringing within control the demolition of specified unlisted buildings in conservation areas. This Amendment will put the matter beyond doubt by expressly providing that references to the local planning authority in Clause 7 are to be interpreted as including both the Greater London Council and the London Borough Council.
§ [No. 8] Clause 8, page 10, line 10, leave out from beginning to (" in ") in line 11 and insert (" the buildings therein to which this section applies, or any one or more of those buildings, they may direct that the buildings or buildings ").
My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 8. This was taken with Amendment No. 6.
§ Grants and loans for preservation or enhancement of character or appearance of conservation areas.
§ " .—(1) If the Secretary of State is of opinion that any area designated as a conservation area under section 277 of the Act of 1971 or, in Scotland, section 1 of the Civic Amenities Act 1967 is an area of outstanding 1140 architectural or historic interest, he may out of moneys provided by Parliament make grants or loans for the purpose of defraying in whole or in part any expenditure incurred or to be incurred in or in connection with, or with a view to the promotion of, the preservation or enhancement of the character or appearance of the area or any part thereof.
§ (2) A grant or loan under this section may be made subject to such conditions as the Secretary of State may think fit to impose.
§ (3) Any loan under this section shall be made on such terms as to repayment, payment of interest and otherwise as the Secretary of State may with the approval of the Treasury determine; and all sums received by the Secretary of State by way of interest on, or repayment of, such a loan shall be paid by him into the Consolidated Fund.
§ Provided that this subsection shall not apply in a case where the making of a grant or loan appears to the Secretary of State to be a matter of immediate urgency.
§ Provided that, in the case of any such member who is also a member of the House of Commons, the payments which the Secretary of State may make under this subsection shall extend only to allowances in respect of travelling and subsistence expenses, and any other expenses necessarily incurred by that member in connection with the rendering of the services in question."
My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 9, which is still concerned with conservation, and the new grant which the Government envisaged while the Bill was with your Lordships, but which has now been incorporated. I think it would be convenient if we were also to consider Amendment No. 15.
The effect of this new clause, which was drafted into the Bill after it left your Lordships' House, is to enable the Secretary of State to make grants or loans for expenditure incurred in connection with the preservation of, or the enhancement of, the character or the appearance 1141 of any outstanding conservation area. The clause has been modelled on, and closely follows, the provisions of Section 4 of the Historic Buildings and Ancient Monuments Act 1953 and Section 4 of the Civic Amenities Act 1967, which taken together enable the Secretary of State, on the advice of the Historic Buildings Councils, to make grants and loans for the purpose of defraying expenditure incurred in the repair or maintenance of buildings of historic or architectural interest. In passing, I would remind your Lordships that there are Historic Buildings Councils for England, Scotland and Wales.
It is with particular Pleasure that I commend this Amendment to your Lordships' House, as it will help us a very great deal in the preservation, conservation and enhancement of our historic towns. During the Committee stage of this Bill in your Lordships' House I said that evidence from the pilot projects which were recommended by the Preservation Policy Group, which was chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, showed that a more flexible form of conservation grant than that group had recommended was needed. Amendment No. 9 proposes such a flexible form of grant. It will be available to local authorities, voluntary bodies, and private individuals for any works or activities for the enhancement or preservation of outstanding conservation areas. It will be paid on the advice of the Historic Buildings Council who rightly enjoy a high reputation for their work on historic buildings. Their allocation has been increased in the first instance by £500,000 per annum to accommodate the new grant. I beg to move.
My Lords, I am certain that we all welcome this Amendment. I have only one point to raise, on subsection (4), which says: Provided that this subsection shall not apply in a case where the making of a grant or loan appears to the Secretary of State to be a matter of immediate urgency. What is being said is that the consultation will not take place, because the Secretary of State—and I presume that this 1142 also means the Secretary of State for Scotland—will have reached the conclusion that he is going to do it. I wondered what the urgency might be that would allow the Secretary of State to take this action without in fact taking into consultation the body mentioned in the subsection preceding subsection (4).
My Lords, the noble Lord is referring to subsection (4) of Amendment No. 9, and to the question of using this clause in a matter of emergency. As I think the noble Lord will recognise, this is not the kind of thing which can be used in an emergency. It requires a deliberate assessment of the character of the conservation area, and the particular arrangements that are needed to enhance it. It would inevitably require consultation with the Historic Buildings Council as to the balance of this scheme and some other scheme. It would be quite inappropriate for emergency repairs.
My Lords, I do not think that the noble Lord has quite understood the question which I put to him, because he seems to be arguing a completely different case. What subsection (4) states is: Provided that this subsection shall not apply in a case where the making of a grant or loan appears to the Secretary of State to be a matter of immediate urgency. So that the Secretary of State will not consult anyone. This subsection is included because it empowers the Secretary of State to do something without any consultation at all. That may be right and necessary, but I should like to know under what circumstances the Secretary of State would exercise that power without consultation.
My Lords, the Historic Buildings Council gives grants to assist in emergency repairs. I think the noble Lord will recognise that if a roof blows off an important listed building, it is important that the Historic Buildings Council can give a grant for the emergency repair of that building and it is appropriate to have powers for doing that. But it would not be appropriate that all funds under this clause should be used in that sort of way, and because the grant-giving powers of the Historic Buildings Council are invoked there needs to be an exclusion in this case.
My Lords, I do not want to take up the time of your Lordships. I am not really clear about this matter, but I am willing to accept that the intentions are good.
§ [No. 10.] Clause 10, page 11, line 23, after (" 1971 ") insert (" and 1972 ").
My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 10. This is a technical Amendment designed simply to secure the addition of " 1972 " to the collective title for this Bill and the Town and Country Planning Act 1971.
§ [No. 11.] Clause 10, page 11, line 34, leave out from beginning to end of line 38.
My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 11. This is a formal Amendment which simply removes the words marked by a black line in the margin, which were inserted by the Lords to avoid questions of privilege.
§ 1. The matters to be examined and kept under review under section 6 of this Act by the Greater London Council shall be such of the matters mentioned in that section as they think fit, or in the case of a fresh survey under 1144 section 6(2) instituted in pursuance of a direction of the Secretary of State, such matters as may be specified in the direction.
§ 2. The matters to be so examined or kept under review by a London borough council shall be such of the matters mentioned in section 6 as have not been examined or kept under review by the Greater London Council, such other matters as they may be required by that Council to examine or keep under review and, in the case of a fresh survey under section 6(2) instituted in pursuance of a direction of the Secretary of State, such matters as may be specified in the direction.
(ii) in relation to any other survey instituted by the council under section 6(1), as those references were to the area of that other survey.
references to neighbouring areas being construed accordingly in either case.
§ 4. Any survey by a London borough council under section 6 of this Act, and any joint surve by two or more such councils, shall be carried out on such lines as the Greater London Council may direct.
§ 5.—(1) The Greater London development plan shall be a structure plan for Greater London approved under section 9 of this Act and may be altered under section 10 accordingly. (2) The Secretary of State may approve the development plan by stages, that is to say he may approve any feature or element of the plan while reserving his decision on other features and elements of it; and in the following provisions of this Schedule references to his final approval of the plan are to when in the case of every feature and element of it either he has indicated his approval of it (with or without modifications) or he has indicated his decision not to approve it. (3) The Secretary of State may direct that any area or part of an area indicated by the 1145 development plan as an area intended for comprehensive development, redevelopment or improvement as a whole shall be treated as an action area, and references in this Schedule to an action area shall be construed accordingly.
§ 6.—(1) Any of the London borough councils may, with the prior consent of the Secretary of State, at any time prepare for submission to him a proposal for altering the Greater London development plan so as to indicate any area specified in the proposal as an action area. (2) Any such proposal shall be sent by the borough council to the Greater London Council, who shall send it on to the Secretary of State within such period as he may allow, with any observations of theirs on the proposal. (3) Sections 8 and 9 of this Act shall apply with the necessary modifications in relation to a proposal under this paragraph as they apply in relation to a structure plan.
§ 7. Sections 7 to 10 of this Act do not apply to the London borough councils and sections 10B, 11 and 12 apply neither to those councils nor to the Greater London Council.
but this sub-paragraph shall not be taken to authorise the preparation of a local plan (joint or other) for the whole or any part of a G.L.C. action area. (4) in the foregoing sub-paragraph, " adjacent planning authority " means a local planning authority whose area adjoins Greater London. (5) Different local plans (joint or other) may be prepared for different purposes for the same part of any area.
but this sub-paragraph shall not be taken to require a council to do again any thing which they have already done. (2) In the case referred to in sub-paragraph (1)(b)(ii) above, a London borough council may comply with that sub-paragraph by joining with any other borough council concerned, with or without the Greater London Council, in the preparation of a joint local plan. (3) Where a council are required by this paragraph to prepare a local plan, they shall take steps for the adoption of that plan.
§ 10.—(1) Without prejudice to the foregoing provisions, the Greater London Council or a London borough council shall, if the Secretary of State gives them (either before or after he finally approves the Greater London development plan) a direction in that behalf with respect to any area of Greater London, as soon as practicable prepare for that area a local plan of such a nature as may he specified in the direction, and take steps for the adoption of the plan; but no such directions shall require a council to take any steps to comply therewith until after the Secretary of State's final approval of the Greater London development plan. (2) Before giving a direction to a council under this paragraph the Secretary of State shall consult the council with respect thereto and, in the case of a direction to be given to a London borough council, he shall also, before giving it, consult the Greater London Council.
(b) contain such matters as may be prescribed, or as the Secretary of State may direct.
(b) have regard to any information and any other considerations which appear to them to be relevant, or which may be prescribed, or which the Secretary of State may in any particular case direct them to take into account.
(5) Before giving a direction to the council under this paragraph the Secretary of State shall consult the council with respect thereto and, in the case of a direction to be given to a London borough council, he shall also, before giving it, consult the Greater London Council.
and the council shall consider any representations made to them within the prescribed period.
(c) in any case send a copy to the Secretary of State.
(b) of the council's consultations with, and their consideration of the views of, other persons.
§ Provided that where one of the authorities is the Greater London Council, that Council shall not be required to take any steps under this sub-paragraph which can in the Council's opinion be taken, and are taken, by the council of any London borough in which any part of the combined area is comprised.
§ (2) After preparing a joint plan, the planning authorities concerned shall before adopting it or submitting it for approval under section 14 of this Act (but not before the Secretary of State has finally approved the Greater London development plan) make copies of the plan available at the offices of each of the authorities respectively and at such other places as may be prescribed and send copies of the plan to the Secretary of State and (in a case where the Greater London Council is not one of the authorities joining in the preparation of the plan) to that Council.
(b) of those authorities' consultations with, and their consideration of the views of, other persons.
(b) in a case where objections to the plan have been made by any person, notify him that the Secretary of State has given such directions as aforesaid.
(d) references in subsection (4) (except in paragraph (e)) to a local planning authority shall be read as references to those authorities.
(4) The date appointed under section 18(4) for the joint plan to become operative shall be a date jointly agreed between the authorities who joined in the preparation of the plan and be specified in their respective resolutions adopting the plan.
(b) in the case of proposals made by a single authority, only in relation to so much of the combined area of the plan as is comprised in that authority's area.
(3) Without prejudice to sub-paragraph (2) above, any of the authorities who joined in the preparation of the plan shall, if the Secretary of State gives them a direction in that behalf, as soon as practicable prepare proposals of a kind specified in the direction, being proposals for the alteration, repeal or replacement of the plan; but no such direction shall be given except for the preparation of proposals relating to so much of the combined area of the plan as is comprised in the area of that authority. (4) The provisions of paragraphs 12 to 14 of this Schedule and of sections 13 and 14 of this Act (as applied by paragraph 15 above) shall apply in relation to the making of proposals for the alteration, repeal or replacement of the joint local plan under this paragraph, and to alterations to a local plan so proposed, as they apply in relation to the preparation of a joint local plan under this Schedule and to a joint local plan prepared thereunder.
§ 17.—(1) A London borough council shall before preparing a local plan under this 1151 Schedule, or proposals for the alteration, repeal or replacement of such a plan, and before complying with paragraph 12(2) of this Schedule in relation to any such plan or proposals, consult the Greater London Council.
§ (2) Before preparing a joint local plan under this Schedule, or proposals for the alteration, repeal or replacement of such a plan, and before complying with paragraph 13(2) of this Schedule in relation to any such plan or proposals, the local planning authorities joining in the preparation of the plan or, as the case may be, preparing the proposals, shall consult the Greater London Council.
§ (3) The Greater London Council shall, before preparing a local plan or proposals for the alteration, repeal or replacement of such a plan, consult the council of any London borough in which there is comprised any part of the area of the plan, and shall consult that council before complying with paragraph 12(2) of this Schedule in relation to any such plan or proposals.
§ (4) Where under this paragraph any local planning authority is required to consult another such authority with respect to any matter, they shall inform the other authority of their proposals in relation to that matter and consider any representations made to them by the other authority within such time as may be prescribed."
My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 12. This Amendment was taken with Amendment No. 4.
§ [No. 13] Schedule 2, page 18, line 3, at end insert— ( ) Every local authority with whom a copy of any direction is deposited under paragraph 5 above shall compile and keep available for public inspection free of charge at reasonable hours and at a convenient place a list containing particulars of any building in their area to which the direction relates.
My Lords, I beg to move that this House both agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 13. This Amendment was taken with Amendment No. 6.
§ [No. 14.] In the Title, line 4, at end insert (" the service of building preservation notices and for ").
My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 14. We considered this Amendment in conjunction with Amendment No. 5.
§ [No. 15.] In the Title, line 6, after (" areas ") insert (" and provision for the making of grants and loans in connection with the preservation or enhancement of the character or appearance of such areas,").
My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 15. We considered this Amendment in conjunction with Amendment No. 9.

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