Source: https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/2003/jul/03/railways-and-transport-safety-bill-1
Timestamp: 2019-04-21 04:31:18+00:00

Document:
§ Proceedings after Third Reading resumed.
§ Schedule (Road traffic: testing for drink and drugs) shall have effect."
§ (1) In the interest of public health and safety, subsections (2) to (4) shall have effect.
§ (2) The Secretary of State shall within one year from the coming into force of this enactment make a permanent Traffic Regulation Order to prohibit the use of non-essential mechanically propelled vehicles on the National Trails.
§ (3) Non-essential mechanically propelled vehicles shall mean all such vehicles but shall not include those driven by individuals with an estate or interest in land adjoining the Trail or their lawful visitors or emergency vehicles.
§ (4) A Traffic Regulation Order shall mean an order as defined in the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 and as subsequently amended."
§ The noble Baroness said: My Lords, Amendment No. 10 requires the Secretary of State to place a permanent traffic regulation order on national trails—routes such as the Ridgeway—which are designed primarily to provide access to the countryside and quiet recreation, particularly for those on foot, on horseback and on bicycles. These routes are unfortunately increasingly being used by off-road 4X4 1034 vehicles which are causing extensive damage to the surface. Environmental problems result in the form of damage to local flora and fauna. There is also the issue of amenity and the quiet use of these routes. However, as this is a safety Bill, I shall say no more now about those aspects.
§ However, damage to the surface does render the routes dangerous for other users. They become slippery during wet weather and rutted during dry weather. Indeed, I have anecdotal evidence of people who find that they cannot use the Ridgeway on foot, horseback or bicycle and have to go on to the local road network for part of their journey. That is clearly nonsensical.
§ As a county councillor in Suffolk I have chaired the rights of way committee for the past decade. I therefore have practical experience of just how difficult it is to deal with the problem of 4X4 vehicles on our public rights of way. Local authorities are able to use traffic regulation orders, but these are bureaucratic, time consuming and very expensive. In the case of the national trails, it is necessary for large numbers of local authorities to co-ordinate and develop together an approach that works along the whole route. Frankly, at the moment that is not working.
§ It seems to me that we have no trouble segregating walkers and cyclists from cars on the rest of the highway network. We provide cycleways and footways. Yet on ancient routes such as the Ridgeway we seem to think it acceptable for vehicles to share the way with walkers, cyclists and riders. I suggest that that does not make much sense at all.
§ So while generally having a slight abhorrence of any kind of centralising tendency, in the case of national trails I suggest that it would make much more sense to have the Secretary of State make an order for the whole of the trail network. I beg to move.
My Lords, may I from memory—thank God not quite from painful memory—confirm that what my noble friend says about danger is true?
My Lords, I have put my name to this amendment. Indeed, I supported the noble Baroness both in Committee and at Report stage. The Minister has tried to be helpful in his answers. He understands the issues and problems in relation to the Ridgeway and other national trails. Indeed, it was the Government who invented the name and concept of national trails; previously we had only the name Ridgeway and the names of various other routes.
I declare an interest as I have done previously. I walk the Ridgeway most weekends. There is a voluntary code on the Ridgeway that bans cars and motorbikes at weekends. On Sunday morning, however, I was passed by 43 motorbikes all in a row. That represents a big safety problem as none of the motorbikes that passed me, all of which were off-roaders, were licensed. If they are not licensed, presumably they are not insured. If there were an accident, there would therefore be a problem. The people operating those 1035 vehicles do not think they are on a road. They say, "We can be here because it is a road", but they have met none of the requirements necessary to be on the road.
My Lords, I stayed in the debate only when I heard the amendment moved by the noble Baroness. I simply wish to endorse what my noble friend has said from the Front Bench. I walk along the same Ridgeway, although a few miles further along, as my noble friend. I endorse that there is not only a nuisance but a considerable danger arising from this situation. I put in the Minister's mind the thought that if these 40 motorcycles were unlicensed, can he be confident that they did not cross any of the roads which intersect the Ridgeway? If so, what would happen to the safety of other people involved in an accident with an uninsured motorcycle?
My Lords, I, too, support the amendment. Indeed, I put my name to similar amendments at previous stages of the Bill. The purpose of this amendment is similar to that of earlier amendments about pedestrians and cyclists. These proposals deal with the right of pedestrians and cyclists not to be subjected to nuisance or danger certainly in some parts of the country road and trail network.
The noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Needham Market, and the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, talked about 4X4s on the Ridgeway. I believe there were 43 of them. Of 1036 course, those drivers are not worried about pedestrians or cyclists are they? They are in their nice little tin boxes, uninsured and probably untaxed. They frighten people off.
My Lords, both the noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Needham Market, and the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, have acknowledged that we take this issue very seriously. As they know, I have facilitated meetings between them and Alun Michael, the Minister for Rural Affairs. I agree very strongly with all that they say about the condition of the Ridgeway in particular. The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, has shown me photographs. I happen to walk on Hampstead Heath rather than the Ridgeway, so I do not experience those problems personally. However, I have no doubt that this is an issue involving danger as well as amenity, so I do not criticise the amendment in that way.
Section 22 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 already provides for the Secretary of State to make traffic regulation orders in relation to special areas of the countryside—including long distance routes--in the interests of conserving or enhancing their natural beauty, and affording better opportunities to enjoy their amenities for recreation or study. If the proposed amendment were agreed, it would override to an uncertain extent the existing provisions of Section 22 in relation to long-distance routes.
When the noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Needham Market, decides what to do about the amendment, I invite her to consider the extent to which the Section 22 powers could be used and to join me in urging that they should be used for this purpose. However, there is a profound difference between the Section 22 powers and what is proposed in the amendment. When a traffic regulation order is proposed under Section 22 powers, the procedures allow an opportunity for objections and, if necessary, a public inquiry before an 1037 independent inspector. We have a very serious problem with the proposed new clause because it would require the Secretary of State to make an order without any opportunity for objections or debate. I am sorry to say that we believe it to be incompatible with the ECHR.
We should give the Countryside Agency's management plan for the Ridgeway a chance before rushing to legislate, especially as there are already 1038 appropriate powers on the statute book. Also, the amendment as drafted—although it cannot be undrafted or redrafted at this stage of consideration in the House—is profoundly defective in respect of flouting, although flouting implies intention, so perhaps I should say conflict with the ECHR.
My Lords, before the Minister sits down, I accept the notion that the amendment is not entirely satisfactorily drafted. However, if the amendment were agreed today the Government would have the opportunity of redrafting it in another place and it could be returned to us in a style that would please everybody, including the Minister.
My Lords, that is a very dangerous argument—that this House should pass a measure that contains elements we know to be unsatisfactory and in conflict with the ECHR. We should have enough pride in our proceedings to send a Bill back to the House of Commons which is correct. I believe that those who have a respect for the relationship between the two Houses and a respect for the European convention—however strongly they feel about the issue, as do I—should not agree to this amendment.
My Lords, is the Minister seriously claiming that it is a fundamental human right to be able to drive a four-wheel drive vehicle along a bridleway for fun—not to get to one's place of business, but simply for fun? I find that hard to believe.
My Lords, I am not suggesting that for a moment. I am saying that when one extinguishes long-standing vehicular rights—because nobody has disputed that those rights are long-standing—there has to be an opportunity to object and the possibility of appeal to an independent tribunal. I would have thought that the noble Lord, Lord Monson, of all people—because he is a libertarian—would agree with that proposition.
My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have supported me in this amendment—not only today, but in previous stages of the Bill. I am gratified to hear from the Minister that he supports the intention behind the amendment even if he is not able to support the amendment itself. That means that we do not have to spend any more time on the substance but can concentrate on the procedure.
We are in this situation because our rights of way law is outdated. We have a law that allows vehicular use on those routes. Three years ago, noble Lords tried hard to get changes to the law when the Countryside and Rights of Way Bill was going through your Lordships' House. The Government resisted at that point, so I find it difficult to accept that the amendment is premature and that we should wait for further legislation in the future. Noble Lords have been patient on the matter. More to the point, the people who live and use the routes have been very patient, even though they are being endangered.
1039 I make no claim to he an expert on human rights legislation or on the procedures of the House. I admit that the amendment does not contain requirements for public consultation, inquiries and so on, but, if the Government were minded to accept to accept it, they could build such things into guidance—they need not be in the Bill—or they could accept the principle and, as the noble Viscount suggested, move an amendment that was more suitable in their eyes, when the Bill reached another place.
I will not accept lectures from anyone on my commitment to human rights or to consultation. My record in Suffolk bears testament to that. However, there are clear examples here of how people's lives are being endangered, besides the question of the recreation and amenity of people who wish to use the routes. I am not happy, therefore, and I wish to test the opinion of the House.
§ Their Lordships divided: Contents, 132; Not-Contents, 110.
Astor of Hever, L. Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Bradshaw, L. Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L. Hanham, B.
Burnham, L. Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L. Howe, E.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L. Howe of Aberavon, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B. Howell of Guildford, L.
Chadlington, L. Hurd of Westwell, L.
Clement-Jones, L. Jenkin of Roding, L.
Colville of Culross, V. Kilclooney, L.
Colwyn, L. King of Bridgwater, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. Laird, L.
Craig of Radley, L. Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Craigavon, V. Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Cumberlege, B. McColl of Dulwich, L.
Dahrendorf, L. MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Elis-Thomas, L. Masham of Ilton, B.
Elles, B. Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L. Methuen, L.
Elton, L. Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L. Seccombe, B.
Monson, L. Sharp of Guildford, B.
Moynihan, L. Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B. Smith of Clifton, L.
Noakes, B. Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Northesk, E. Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Northover, B. Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L. Taylor of warwick, L.
Palmer, L. Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L. Vivian, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. Waddington, L.
Russell-Johnston, L. Walker of Worcester, L.
Saatchi, L. Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.[Teller] Watson of Richmond, L.
Acton, L. Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Ampthill, L. Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L. Golding, B.
Ashton of Upholland, B. Goldsmith, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L. Gould of Potternewton, B.
Brett, L. Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Hollis of Heigham. B.
Brookman, L. Howells of St. Davids, B.
Bruce of Donington, L. Hoyle, L.
Chandos, V. Lea of Crondall, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L. Lockwood, B.
Clinton-Davis, L. Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B. McCarthy, L.
Crawley, B. Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
Croham, L. Mclntosh of Haringey, L.
David, B. Mclntosh of Hudnall, B.
Davies of Coity, L. MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller] Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Desai, L. Massey of Darwen, B.
Dormand of Easington, L. Paul, L.
Evans of Parkside, L. Puttnam, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L. Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor) Rea, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Richard, L.
Fitt, L. Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B. Warner, L.
Sewel, L. Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Sheldon, L. Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Simon, V. Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B. Williams of Elvel, L.
Turner of Camden, B. Woolmer of Leeds, L.
§ "OPERATING CENTRES In section 13(5) of the Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) Act 1995 (c. 23) (determination of applications) after paragraph (d) there is inserted— (dd) in permitting goods vehicles operators to establish an operating centre the Traffic Commissioner is satisfied that the Centre is available, suitable and of sufficient capacity and must take into account the suitability of the local road network for the establishment of such a centre."
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, I do not intend to detain the House for long. We have previously discussed the question of operating centres and the Minister wrote to me on the subject and sent me a copy of the traffic commissioner's report, for which I thank him. We will not divide the House on this matter although I would have done if time had allowed, but it does not. However, I give him notice that we do not believe that the use of traffic orders is appropriate or that the police have anything like sufficient numbers of officers to enforce them. When the amendments to the Road Traffic Act, to which he referred, are considered by the department, it should turn its attention away from traffic orders to a more useful form of amendment, whereby when an operating centre licence is granted and access is agreed to the road network, the traffic commissioner should be permitted to take into account whether the road is suitable. Will the noble Lord seriously consider that suggestion? As a specialist, he knows what sort of vehicles are likely to use it and he can set the sort of operating parameters that are more suitable to that centre. I beg to move.
My Lords, I am relieved that the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, chose not to argue the case for the amendment because I have great difficulty with it as drafted. I do not believe that it meets his own concerns. He asked me for an assurance that when the issue of traffic regulation orders is considered, those issues should be taken into account. I can certainly give him that assurance.
§ (1) If any of subsections (2) to (5) applies a constable may require a person to co-operate with any one or more preliminary tests administered to the person by that constable or another constable.
(b) has alcohol or a drug in his body or is under the influence of a drug.
(b) still has alcohol or a drug in his body or is still under the influence of a drug.
(b) has committed a traffic offence while the vehicle was in motion.
(b) a constable reasonably believes that the person was driving, attempting to drive or in charge of the vehicle at the time of the accident.
§ (6) A person commits an offence if without reasonable excuse he fails to co-operate with a preliminary test in pursuance of a requirement imposed under this section.
§ (7) A constable may administer a preliminary test by virtue of any of subsections (2) to (4) only if he is in uniform.
(iv) a provision of this Act other than a provision of Part V.
§ (1) A preliminary breath test is a procedure whereby the person to whom the test is administered provides a specimen of breath to be used for the purpose of obtaining, by means of a device of a type approved by the Secretary of State, an indication whether the proportion of alcohol in the person's breath or blood is likely to exceed the prescribed limit.
§ (2) A preliminary breath test administered in reliance on section 6(2) to (4) may be administered only at or near the place where the requirement to co-operate with the test is imposed.
(b) if the constable who imposes the requirement thinks it expedient, at a police station specified by him.
(b) makes such other observations of the person's physical state as the constable thinks expedient.
(d) the inferences that may be drawn from observations made in the course of a preliminary impairment test.
(b) if he is, whether or not his unfitness is likely to be due to drink or drugs.
§ (5) A constable administering a preliminary impairment test shall have regard to the code of practice under this section.
§ (6) A constable may administer a preliminary impairment test only if he is approved for that purpose by the chief officer of the police force to which he belongs.
(b) in particular, the kind of training that a constable should have undergone, or the kind of qualification that a constable should possess, before being approved under that subsection.
(b) used for the purpose of obtaining, by means of a device of a type approved by the Secretary of State, an indication whether the person to whom the test is administered has a drug in his body.
§ (1) A constable may arrest a person without warrant if as a result of a preliminary breath test the constable reasonably suspects that the proportion of alcohol in the person's breath or blood exceeds the prescribed limit.
(b) the constable reasonably suspects that the person has alcohol or a drug in his body or is under the influence of a drug.
§ (3) A person may not be arrested under this section while at a hospital as a patient.
(b) is without prejudice to any rule of law or enactment about the right of a constable in Scotland to enter any place."
§ 2 In section 7(3) of that Act (provision of specimen for analysis) after the word "or" after subsection (bb) insert — (bc) as a result of the administration of a preliminary drug test, the constable making the requirement has reasonable cause to believe that the person required to provide a specimen of blood or urine has a drug in his body, or".
(b) in paragraph (a), for "it shall be for the provision of a specimen at the hospital" substitute "it shall be for co-operation with a test administered, or for the provision of a specimen, at the hospital".
§ 4 In section 10(1) of that Act (detention of persons affected by alcohol or drugs) in subsection (1) after "a person required" insert "under section 7 or 7A".
(b) in subsection (3) for "A person does not provide a specimen of breath for a breath test or for analysis unless the specimen" substitute "A person does not co-operate with a preliminary test or provide a specimen of breath for analysis unless his co-operation or the specimen".
§ 6 In section 184(1)(f) of that Act (application of sections 5 to 10 to military personnel) for "in section 6(1) the reference to a traffic offence" substitute "in section 6 a reference to a traffic offence".
§ 7 In Schedule 1 to the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 (c. 53) (offences to which certain provisions apply), in the entry for section 6 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (c. 52) for the description of the general nature of the offence substitute "Failing to co?operate with a preliminary test".
§ 8 In Schedule 2 to that Act (prosecution and punishment of offenders), in the entry for section 6 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (c. 52) for the description of the general nature of the offence substitute "Failing to co-operate with a preliminary test".
§ 9 In section 34A(1D)(a) of the Army Act 1955 (c. 18) (testing for drugs) for sub-paragraph (i) substitute— 1045 (i) any provision of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (c. 52),".
§ 10 In section 34A(1D)(a) of the Air Force Act 1955 (c. 19) (testing for drugs) for sub-paragraph (i) substitute— (i) any provision of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (c. 52),".
§ 11 In section 12A(1D)(a) of the Naval Discipline Act 1957 (c. 53) (testing for drugs) for sub-paragraph (i) substitute— (1) any provision of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (c. 52),".
§ 12 In section 34(6) of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (c. 60) (arrest) for "section 6(5) of the Road Traffic Act 1988" substitute "section 6D of the Road Traffic Act 1988".
§ 13 In section 32(8)(a) of the Armed Forces Act 2001 (c. 19) (testing for drink or drugs) for sub-paragraph (i) substitute— (i) any provision of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (c. 52),".
"Road Traffic Act 1988 (c. 52) In section 11(2), the definition of "breath test"."
§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill do now pass.

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