Source: https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1924/jul/01/church-of-scotland-property-and
Timestamp: 2019-04-21 19:06:40+00:00

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My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill It may be convenient to your Lordships if I take this opportunity to make a brief statement. Since the Bill was read a second time at the beginning of April, a good deal has happened. I may remind your Lordships, in a sentence, what it is that the. Bill sought to do. It sought to convert Scottish teinds or tithes into rentcharges, which should take the place of the old stipends and teinds out of which they are payable. A Committee had sat for a year to investigate the whole system, and it made a Report which was full of detail and difficulty. Thereupon my noble friend Viscount Novar, who was then Secretary for Scotland, brought in a Bill which, in the main, agreed with the scheme of the Committee, but also varied it in certain points. The points upon which variation was proposed were these. Both the Committee and Lord Novar proposed to create the rentcharges of which I have spoken, but, in order to clear the title of the land, they both sought also to make these rents compulsorily redeemable, and this gave rise to opposition on the part of the landowners.
On the Second Reading the Bill was passed without a Division, but a very firm warning was given to us by the heritors, or landowners, that they objected to com- 3 pulsory redemption. They objected, in fact, both to my noble friend's Bill and to the Report of the Committee on this point. It was obvious that the objection was a very serious one, and would demand modifications both in the Bill and in the views which the Committee took. I myself regarded it as so serious that I went to Edinburgh, and there held a meeting with the Scottish landowners. That meeting was a very amicable one, and though we did not then succeed in coming to an agreement, I was much assisted in presiding over this meeting by the good will and helpfulness shown by my noble friend the Duke of Buccleueh. As I say, we did not on that occasion come to a definite agreement, but we reached the point of being able to put the matter in the hands of three of the heritors and three representatives of the Church who were to meet under the Chairmanship of the Lord Advocate.
These gentlemen held a number of meetings, and in the result came to complete agreement as to the modifications which would be acceptable. The Church was represented, the landowners were represented, and we came to an agreement which we regarded as satisfactory and which was embodied in the Amendments put before your Lordships. The statement I am now making gives me an opportunity of dealing with these points rather briefly. What I have to say is that the method adopted was to get rid altogether of the provisions as to redemption. This principle is not now proposed, except so far as concerns small farms of less than £2. With regard to these there may have to be a further amendment made hereafter in the interest of the Church which desires its security to be preserved. Meantime, so far as the main sections are concerned, there is now complete agreement, and the noble Duke and those who act with him and their technical advisers are, I understand, completely satisfied with the Bill as it stands. So also is the Church, and it was passed by an overwhelming majority in the Assembly. This is very satisfactory, if these views are accepted by your Lordships. I now move that the House do resolve itself into Committee in order that we may consider the drafts of the Amendments.
My Lords, as the noble and learned Viscount has indicated, the situation has greatly changed for the better since your Lordships passed the Second Beading of this Bill. Indeed, a new situation has arisen. The representatives of the Church and of the heritors have come together and reached an agreement as to the basis for the commutation of teinds. I do not doubt that your Lordships will have no difficulty in a cepting such Amendments to the Bill as are necessary to give effect to this agreement. The debate in the House on the Second Beading probably contributed to the satisfactory issue of the conferences that were then going on between the parties concerned. It cleared the air, and showed the Churches the strength and reasonableness of the heritors' objections even to the proposals in my Bill, which were considerably more satisfactory to them than those contained in the original scheme of the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack. It may also have influenced the heritors to make concessions in the matter of the price of the chalder, so as to secure an agreement that would finally settle this vexed question, replace uncertain and varying liabilities by fixed calculable charges, and make certain that the teinds should be permanently assigned to the Church.
The United Free Church, when faced with the realities of the situation as disclosed in the Second Reading debate, happily discovered that the transformation of the teind into a first charge on land was not incompatible with the status of a Free Church, especially as much of its own property was held in the scarcely distinguishable form of land mortgages and feus— in short, that the form of redemption could not infringe any vital principle and could not imperil the union. Dr. Johnson observed that it clears a man's mind wonderfully when he is going to be hanged and doubtless, when the precarious position of the Bill became apparent, both lay and ecclesiastical minds were quickly cleared of prejudice and doubts, and a compromise was achieved. It must be said for the heritors that the enormous stipends paid during and after the war, when landowners themselves were precluded from raising rents 5 or benefiting in any way from the rise in the price of cereals which enriched ministers, disinclined them to make sacrifices, while the ever increasing difficulty they were encountering owing to the rise in rates and taxes made it almost impossible for some of them to face redemption on the basis laid down by the Committee, coupled with the condition that payment had to be made in the form of consols. The agreement, therefore, to add five per cent. to the value of the chalder for the purpose of calculating the final charge, is a generous one, for this puts the chalder higher in value than it was ever computed by the noble Viscount or myself.
Our old friend the consol reappears in the agreed Amendments to the Bill, but it is there as a memento mori of the noble and learned Viscount's original scheme and it has no longer any bearing on the subject. The provision imposes no obligation on the heritor to redeem in consols, nor is he likely to adopt that method, because it leaves it perfectly open to Church and heritor to make what bargain they like. It is probable that if the heritors' views had been as authoritatively represented during the sitting of the Commission or during the subsequent period of preparing the Bill as they have been recently the original character of the Bill would have been different, and no crisis need have arisen. It was always difficult to justify redemption on a basis which made it compulsory on the heritor while leaving the representative of the Church free to continue as at present and to claim commutation and redemption on vacancy. Yet there was substance in the claim of the minister to his existing rights, and it was equally difficult to contest the position taken up by the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack, that redemption had to be enforced if union were to be achieved, because of the conscientious scruples of the United Free Church.
The noble Duke, who admirably represented the views of the heritors in the Second Reading debate, made a general reference to the inconsistencies he detected in my record on this question, as well as in that of the Lord Chancellor. He had a fair opening for so doing, but those of us who supported disestablishment and disendowment in the old days did so largely in the hope of achieving the union, and we were perhaps over-influenced by the contention of the Free 6 Church that along that path only could union be obtained. We rejoice, to-day, that a better way has been found, and though a desire to secularise the teind may still be strong in certain circles in another place, it is difficult to see how this Bill, in its agreed form, with all the authority of the Church and people behind it, can fail to be accepted by Parliament.
My Lords, I was unfortunately absent from this country when, three months ago, on April 1, this Bill was read a second time. Perhaps I may be allowed to offer a few words on a matter which I regard as of real importance. I venture to say these few words for the subject, although its details are necessarily extreme y technical, is concerned, and that not distantly, with far-reaching principles of Church and State and with the quite vital question of promoting Christian unity among the Churches. To me, as a Scotsman born five years after the Disruption, whose boyhood lay in surroundings wherein the question was a living and burning, or at all events, a heated one, the matter must always be one of peculiar interest.
And of recent years I have had the closest touch with the negotiations which have been carried on year after year, and the honour of being in almost constant consultation with the noble Lord whose absence is so pathetic to us to-night, the late Lord Balfour of Burleigh—whose son I am glad to see is taking part in the debate to-day—whose interest in this matter was not merely of a general kind but was really one of the forces which transformed what might have been theory into practical effect. He was a man not only of the finest character but of the most eminent Scottish acumen and of almost unique Scottish knowledge, both in things secular and sacred. I have, therefore, had the advantage of being in constant touch with the successive steps that have been taken for a good many years in a direction of which we are, I hope, now seeing the final stages.
On the face of it this measure is so technical as to daunt most men who would try to grapple quietly with a single page of it. It carries one back in thought to the pages of Sir Walter Scott and the conversations between Davie Deans and his friend Saddletree about the intricacies 7 of Scottish secular and ecclesiastical law, and we find phrases occurring to us which have been immortalised in the earlier chapters of the "Heart of Midlothian." But because the thing is technical, it would be extremely unwise and uninformed on our part were we to regard it, or speak of it, as unimportant. I suppose it is true to say, on the contrary, that unless we can clear up these dry and rather tangled thickets, these meshes of legal complications on the financial and other preliminaries of such a step as is now to be taken—unless we can get these obstructive details out of the way, we cannot possibly get on to the roadway that will be open towards that unity for which we may surely believe that every thoughtful and religious-minded Scotsman has been striving and praying for a good many years.
To get that unity brought out now is worth while. The spectacle would, outside Scotland, be not only amazing but almost incredible of two huge bodies of eager and earnest religious men, identically at one in creed, in the formularies they use, and in religious discipline, who have yet been at ceaseless and sometimes even vituperative, variance with one another for eighty years about questions which, however large they may loom in the eyes, say, of a Highland crofter who is also an elder in the Church, seem to the average Englishman not only unimportant but practically unintelligible. We know their reality and we desire to see them removed. We are anxious to see this unnecessary and yet long-continued division, starting from Disruption days, as we call them, and going on till now, brought to an end. It was by Parliamentary or Governmental mishandlings and tactlessness that the Disruption, eighty years ago, became first possible, and then inevitable. It is by the exercise here and now of the very opposite spirit that we may help to end that octogenarian schism. By our respectful, courteous and understanding handling of these complex rules and systems we may be allowed to contribute essentially to bring this unhappy division to an absolute end. That, beyond all doubt, will be to the infinite gain of religious life in Scotland, to the promotion of what will make for quiet co-operation, steady progress and, as I hope and believe, 8 enduring peace. I heartily welcome the fact that we shall now be going into Committee on this Bill.
My Lords, I am glad that the most rev. Primate made a reference to the late Lord Balfour of Burleigh. All of us who knew him so well, and particularly those from Scotland, welcome those words, and I feel myself that if Lord Balfour of Burleigh had been with us to-day he would certainly have approved of the arrangements embodied in this Bill, and would have been very pleased that there was a prospect of such a Bill passing through Parliament. I would like, in the first instance, to tender my thanks to my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor for the part he has taken in calling the Committee together. The Lord Chancellor does not have a very long holiday, but he spent one day of his holiday in coming to Edinburgh and presiding over a joint meeting of the heritors and representatives of the Church. At that meeting, although no agreement was arrived at, the way was paved for it, and the Lord Advocate was good enough to preside over a small joint committee which arrived at this settlement.
On behalf of those for whom I act I should like to tender our thanks for the great patience and the good advice with which the Lord Advocate has helped us to come to this settlement, which, I think, is satisfactory to both parties. If the Bill goes through in its present form I think no ill feeling will be left behind it; it will work for good, and will give the Church and everyone in Scotland a better prospect for the future. The Bill has been so much altered that there will probably have to be certain necessary minor Amendments after it has been reprinted, and therefore I hope that the Bill will be reprinted as soon as possible. But I quite agree with my noble and learned friend that in all the main respects it embodies the agreement arrived at between the heritors and the Church of Scotland.
There is only one point to which I should like to allude, and that is the compulsory redemption by the small heritors. I agree that it was probably absolutely necessary—it was certainly convenient—that this should be. But those with whom I am working do not represent the small heritors. At this 9 meeting that fact was pointed out, and my noble and learned friend said at once that the Government; would look after their interests and see that they were fairly and generously treated. They were not, one might say, represented, but the Government, I believe, are fully-prepared even now, in the future stages of the Bill, to see that their interests do not suffer. This arrangement is a satisfactory one, and one which your Lordships could wisely accept. There is however, one point that I should like to urge upon the Government, although I do not think it is necessary to enlarge upon it as the Lord Chancellor has it in view.
Though there might not be a great deal of pressure on Parliament from outside, this is a measure which is very vital not only to the religious future but the future of the whole of Scotland, and I trust, therefore, that it will be passed through your Lordships' House in its present, or a somewhat similar, form, and that the Government will do all they can to pass it into law before the end of the Session. It is not, in any way, a Party measure and, therefore, I do not see that any one has any interest in trying to arrest its progress.
My Lords, I should like, in a very few words, to associate myself with what has fallen from the noble Duke and the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack. I desire also, on behalf of the Church of Scotland, to express to the noble and learned Viscount their grateful thanks for the unremitting care and attention that he has given to this measure and to express their sense of the fact that it is very largely due to him that what we hope in Scotland may prove to be the last stumbling block in the way of union may now be removed.
§ Standard value of victual stipend.
§ (3) The value in money of any victual stipend, as the same may be ascertained under subsection (1) of this section subject to any variation under subsection (2) thereof is in this Act referred to as the "standard value" of that stipend.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "the average value for that county of the different kinds of victual in which such stipends are localled," and insert "determined by adding to the former county average value of the different kinds of victual in which such stipends are localled an increase of five per centum of that average value, and for the purposes of this section the former county average value of any kind of victual shall be deemed to be the average value of that kind of victual for that county."
§ The noble and learned Viscount said: The purpose of this Amendment is to put into the Bill the increase of five per cent. to which the noble Viscount, Lord Novar, referred and which is part of the arrangement made with the heritors in lieu of redemption. This provision was negotiated in Scotland under the auspices of the Lord Advocate, and I should like to take this opportunity of saying that the thanks of the Church, of the heritors, and of his own colleagues are due for the unremitting care and attention with which the Lord Advocate brought to bear his vast store of knowledge and his experience in the negotiation of these Amendments. We all owe more to him in this matter than we ordinarily owe to 11 our colleagues, and I would like to take the opportunity of stating that without his help I doubt whether I could have overcome the difficulties in front of us.
§ In dealing with the Amendments I do not propose to read them to your Lordships. They are on the Paper, and they nearly all fulfil the definition which Lord Westbury gave of a deed—" something impossible to understand, difficult to read, and disgusting to touch." Therefore, if your Lordships will allow me, I will not read these Amendments; I will only tell you what their substance is. The substance of this Amendment is, as I stated, to put the five per cent. into the Bill. I beg to move.
The next Amendment to this clause is consequential.
§ Date of standardisation of stipend.
§ 3. The date of standardisation of a stipend shall be the first day of January which shall first occur not less than six months after the date when the benefice becomes actually vacant or is deemed to have become vacant by election or by notification as hereinafter provided. In the ease of a benefice which is actually vacant at the passing of this Act the date of standardisation shall be the first day of January, nineteen hundred and twenty-five.
§ The words "becomes actually vacant" shall not include the occasion where a minister is succeeded by an assistant and successor appointed to him before the passing of this Act, but shall include the occasion where a minister is succeeded by an assistant and successor appointed to him after such passing.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to leave out "first day of January" and insert "term of Martinmas." The noble and learned Viscount said: I do not think I need enlarge to your Lordships on the merits of the term "Martinmas," a term with which you are not familiar south of the Tweed, but which we hold to be important in Scotland. I beg to move.
§ 4. Any minister who at the passing of this Act is entitled to a victual stipend may elect that the stipend shall be standardised and may intimate his election in writing to the clerk of the presbytery and to the general trustees, and in such case the benefice shall for the purposes of this Act be deemed to have become vacant by election at the date of the said intimation.
§ The LORD CHANCELLOR moved to leave out "may intimate his election in writing" and insert "if he so elects he shall intimate his election in writing in the form set forth in the Third Schedule to this Act or in a similar form to the heritors." The noble and learned Viscount said: The object of the Amendment is to put into the Bill a form under which the minister may intimate his election in writing. It is a very harmless system, and I do not think I need enlarge upon it. I beg to move.
I beg to move the four Amendments to this clause which stand in my name on the Paper.
§ Page 3, line 29, leave out (" General Assembly ") and insert (" General Trustees ").
§ Page 3, line 32, after (" Presbytery ") insert (" and to the heritors ").
§ Page 3, line 37, leave out (" General Assembly ") and insert (" General Trustees ").
§ 6. With respect to a parish where separate benefices exist and both the ministers are entitled to victual stipend, the foregoing provisions of this Act shall have effect subject to the following modification, namely, that neither of the benefices shall be deemed to be or to become actually vacant or to have become vacant by election or notification, unless the other benefice was actually vacant at the passing of this Act, or shall thereafter have become actually vacant or been deemed to have become vacant by election or notification.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after "' stipend, "to insert" except where in such parish there are no surplus teinds." The noble and learned Viscount said: I move to insert those words because it is obvious that the provision in the Bill would be useless where there are no such surplus teinds. The words are intended to meet that. I beg to move.
§ Payment of standardised stipend pending redemption.
whichever of these two amounts the heritor may select.
§ Payment of standardised stipend.
(b) that the second half of the standardised stipend for that year shall not become payable till the term of Candlemas in the following year.
§ (2) Where as hereinafter in this Act provided the standard value of the stipend as shown by the teinds roll is constituted a real burden or has become redeemable as the case may be, the provisions of this section shall cease to have effect, and with respect to payments under this section due or payable before that event, the General Trustees shall have all the powers of recovery which according to the present law and practice a minister has with respect to his stipend.
§ The noble and learned Viscount said: This new clause is designed to make clear what the standardised stipend is— that is to say, the stipend that has been revised in accordance with the provisions of the Bill— and also the dates on which it is payable. These clauses have been closely scrutinised by the Lord Advocate and myself on behalf of the Government and your Lordships may take it, I think, that they are in a satisfactory form. I beg to move.
§ 10.—(1) From and after the passing of this Act (but without prejudice to any application for augmentation competently made before such passing), not more than one application for augmentation of stipend may be made with respect to any one stipend. And any augmentation granted on such single application shall come in place of all future rights of augmentation and shall be final.
augmentation shall be dealt with by the General Trustees when a period of twenty years shall have so elapsed, or if before that occurrence the benefice becomes actually vacant, or the Minister intimates his election that the stipend should he standardised.
§ (3) The provisions set out in the Third Schedule to this Act shall have effect with respect to applications for augmentation of stipend made after the passing of this Act.
§ 10.—(1) On the passing of this Act the present law relating to augmentation of stipend shall cease to have effect without prejudice to any application for augmentation competently made before such passing or to anything following on such application or done therein.
apply to the Lord Ordinary to find whether there are surplus teinds available for an augmentation. No such application may be made after the expiry of eleven years from the passing of this Act.
(c) Where the stipend as so modified is thirty chalders or upwards, an augmentation of four chalders.
The foregoing augmentation of six, five or four chalders, as the case may be, shall be converted and localled in sterling money according to the standard value.
§ If the amount of the available surplus teinds as ultimately ascertained in the localling of the augmentation among the heritors is insufficient to meet the foregoing augmentations, the augmentation shall be limited to the amount so ascertained.
§ (4) As from the date when a Minister or the General Trustees, as the case may be, becomes or become entitled to an augmentation under this section, the amount of the augmentation shall be added to the stipend and shall be payable and recoverable in like manner.
§ (5) The provisions set out in the Fourth Schedule to this Act shall have effect with respect to augmentations under this section.
§ (6) An augmentation under this section shall come in place of all future rights of augmentation and shall be final.
§ (7) In the event of the Lord Ordinary finding that there are no surplus teinds available for an augmentation, neither the Minister nor the General Trustees shall be entitled to make any further application."
§ The noble and learned Viscount said: This is an Amendment for the purpose of substituting a new clause for Clause 10 as it stands in the Bill. It is a clause relating to a mysterious subject called the augmentation of stipend, on which the law is still more mysterious. This is a clause which simply puts into form the m matter agreed on between the heritors and the Church. It has been agreed that there should be a definite amount in the augmentation of stipend instead of leaving it to litigation. Accordingly, I move this clause which embodies the agreement.
(d) The proportion of that value payable by each heritor in the parish.
§ (2) The said teind rolls shall be prepared and issued as soon as may be practicable, and the provisions of the Fourth Schedule to this Act shall have effect with respect to the preparation, issue, and adjustment of the teind rolls.
§ (3) The Court of Session shall make by Act of Sederunt, with the approval of the Treasury, such rules and regulations as may in the judgment of the court from time to time be necessary to regulate the amount of the fees to ho paid to the Clerk of Teinds in connection with the preparation, issue, and adjustment of the teind rolls and the time and place of the payment of the said fees, which shall he payable by the heritors concerned.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (2), to leave out "Fourth" and insert "Fifth." The noble and learned Viscount said: This is a purely verbal Amendment. I beg to move.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (3), to leave out "which shall be payable by the heritors concerned," and insert "The expenses of the preparation, issue and adjustment of a teind roll including where necessary the expense of the preparation of a state of teinds shall be borne by the heritors in proportion to the amount of the total teind applicable to the lands of each heritor but any heritor whose teinds have been valued and surrendered before the date of standardisation shall be relieved of his share of the expenses by the General Trustee."
§ The noble and learned Viscount said: This is a provision as to the costs of the teind roll which, under this clause, are partitioned between the heritors and the Church. I beg to move.
We have that in view, and, if necessary, further assistance may be given to the Teind Clerk for the purpose. We are watching this very carefully.
§ 12.—(1) It shall be the duty of every heritor at any term of Whitsunday or Martinmas occurring within one year from the date on which the teind roll of a parish has become final (such term of Whitsunday or Martinmas being hereinafter in this Act referred to as the "date of redemption") to redeem any stipend exigible from the teinds of his lands in that parish by payment to the General Trustees of redemption money equal to the value of the stipend so exigible as shown by the teind roll multiplied by twenty-two.
§ (2) For the purpose of paying the redemption money in respect of any stipend as aforesaid, the heritor may raise the amount of the redemption money, or any part thereof, by granting a bond and disposition in security over the lands from the teinds of which the stipend is exigible.
(b) Such further sum, being not less than one pound, by way of sinking fund instalment as would be sufficient if the periodical payments thereof were accumulated at the rate of four and a half per centum per annum to produce an amount equal to the redemption money at the end of a given number of years, not exceeding fifty years, from the date of redemption.
§ (4) Every annuity under this section shall be created by way of a charge over the lands from the teinds of which the stipend is exigible in favour of the General Trustees, payable by half-yearly instalments extending over the terms of years specified therein, and the first payment thereof shall be made at the term of Whitsunday or Martinmas first occurring after the date of redemption, the first half-yearly payment of the said annuity being for the half year preceding the term at which the first half-yearly payment is made, and the charge shall be stamped and sufficiently stamped with the duty payable on a mortgage to secure the redemption money.
§ (5)—(a) Where the redemption money due by a heritor under subsection (1) of this section does not exceed the sum of twenty-two pounds, and the same has not been paid to the General Trustees at the date of redemption, the amount of the redemption money shall be a personal debt due by the heritor to the General Trustees.
§ (b) Where the redemption money due by a heritor as aforesaid exceeds the sum of twenty-two pounds, and payment thereof has at the date of redemption neither been made to the General Trustees nor been discharged by means of an annuity as in this section provided; the General Trustees may apply to the sheriff for an order ordaining the heritor to create a charge in their favour as hereinbefore provided. And if the heritor refuses or fails so to do, the sheriff shall grant authority to the sheriff clerk to execute such a charge, the annuity created by the charge being of the smallest amount and for the longest period allowed by the foregoing provisions of this section, and a charge so executed shall be as valid as if it bad been executed by the heritor.
§ (6) At any term of Whitsunday or Martinmas during the currency of any charge under this section, the charge may be terminated by payment to the General Trustees of an amount equal to the redemption money after the deduction of such sum as represents the sinking fund instalments already paid under the charge and the accumulations thereof at the rate of four and a half per centum per annum. On receipt of such payment, the General Trustees shall be bound to grant a certificate thereof, and such certificate on being stamped with the same stamp duty as a discharge of a mortgage and on being recorded in the appropriate Register of Sasines shall operate so as to release from the charge the lands over which the charge is secured.
§ (7) Any heritable security granted for the purpose of the payment of redemption money, and any charge created under this section, shall be recorded in the appropriate Register of Sasines, and from the date of such recording shall be preferable to all other securities or burdens not incidents of tenure.
§ (8) The half-yearly instalments of any annuity created by way of a charge under this section and any arrears of such instalments may be recovered by the person for the time being entitled thereto by the same means and in the like manner as any feu duties or rent or other payment out of the same lands would be recoverable.
§ (9) Any charge created under this section may be in or as nearly as may be in the form set out in the Fifth Schedule to this Act.
§ (10) All heirs of entail, liferenters, trustees, judicial factors, tutors, curators and other guardians, heritable creditors in possession, and other persons who are in actual receipt of the income of any estate of property are, notwithstanding any limitations in their titles, hereby authorised and required without any further sanction to exercise all the powers conferred and to carry out all the obligations imposed by this section 21 upon heritors who are absolute owners, and all deeds executed in pursuance of this subsection by any of the persons before-mentioned" shall be fully binding upon all persons whomsoever interested in the lands to which such deeds relate. Where any heir of entail in possession shall have, in whole or in part, paid the redemption money of any stipend exigible from the teinds of the entailed lands, he shall be help to be a creditor of the entailed lands for the amount of the redemption money so paid, and shall have the like rights as are conferred upon heirs of entail in possession by the Entail Acts with reference to improvement expenditure made by them.
§ (11) Upon the payment to the General Trustees of the redemption money, or from the date of the recording of the charge, as the case may he, any claim upon the heritor in respect of the stipend shall cease and be extinguished.
§ (12) Nothing contained in this section or done in pursuance thereof by a heritor shall prejudice or affect any obligation to relieve the heritor of any lands from liability in respect of any stipend exigible from the teinds thereof, and any such obligation shall extend to relief from liability in respect of the redemption of the stipend.
§ (13) The reference to "teinds" in Section fifty-nine of the Improvements of Land Act. 1864, shall be construed so as to include charges under this section.
§ Charge to be substituted for liability of stipend exceeding two pounds.
(4) upon the redemption of the standard charge as aforesaid any claim upon the heritor or other person in respect of such standard charge shall cease and be extinguished and the lands from which the same was exigible shall be disburdened thereof in all time coming and an entry to that effect shall be made in the teind roll which shall be sufficient evidence of the discharge of the burden."
§ The noble and learned Viscount said: This deals with stipends where the amount payable is over £2 in the case of a particular piece of land, and it provides how this kind of charge is to be attached to the land, and how it is to be payable. I beg to move.
§ Allocation of standard charge.
§ ". A standard charge shall from its constitution continue a real burden on the whole of the lands subject thereto, and on every part of those lands notwithstanding any disposition of the lands or any part thereof unless and until intimation of an allocation of the standard charge has been made in writing by the General Trustees and the disponer or his representatives to the Clerk of Teinds, who upon receiving such an intimation shall forthwith make the necessary entry in the teind roll.
§ If as the result of any such allocation the portion of a standard charge so allocated 23 upon the lands disponed or remaining a real burden on the lands retained by the disponer does not exceed two pounds, the disponer or his representatives shall within three months after the date of the entry in the roll redeem the same by payment to the General Trustees of a sum equal to the amount so allocated or remaining a burden multiplied by twenty; and if the portion of the standard charge so allocated or remaining a burden exceeds two pounds but is less than fifteen pounds, that portion of the standard charge shall as from the date of the entry in the teind roll be increased by five per centum."
§ The noble and learned Viscount said: This new clause provides for the allocation of the standard charge and has this important feature, that in future the rentcharge will be a rentcharge in the strict sense of the term and not merely the profits of the land.
§ Provisions where stipend does not exceed two pounds.
(3) Upon the redemption of a stipend as aforesaid any claim upon the heritor or other person in respect of such stipend shall cease and be extinguished and an entry to that effect made in the teind roll shall be sufficient evidence of the redemption."
§ Redemption of surplus teinds.
(c) in the case of all other surplus teinds redemption shall be by payment to the titular of redemption money equal to the value of those surplus teinds as shown by the teind roll multiplied by twenty-two.
§ (2) The provisions of the section of this Act relating to redemption of stipend other than subsections (1) and (12) of that section shall apply with the necessary modifications to the redemption of surplus teinds under this section. And in such application references to stipend shall be construed as references to surplus teinds, references to the General Trustees shall be construed as references to the titular, references to the standard value of the stipend shall be construed as references to the value of the surplus teind as appearing in the teind roll, and references to the land from the teinds of which the stipend is exigible shall be construed as references to the lands from which the surplus teinds are exigible.
§ Sale of surplus teinds.
§ "14. Notwithstanding anything contained in the Act of the Scots Parliament, 1693. c. 23 (an Act renewing the commission for plantation of kirks and valuation of teinds), or in any other enactment or in any charter, grant or deed, it shall be lawful after the passing of this Act for the titular or any other person having right of titularity to sell surplus teinds on such terms as may be agreed upon between him and the heritor.
§ Nothing in this section shall prejudice or affect the provisions of the Acts of the Scots Parliament, 1633, c. 17 (anent the rate and price of teinds), and 1690, c. 23 (concerning patronages) or any other enactment at present in force authorising the sale of surplus teinds."
§ The noble and learned Viscount said: Here again, in pursuance of the agreement, we leave out Clause, 14, and for this reason. In Scotland there are certain teinds payable to Universities, and so on, which cannot be sold, and it is desirable that there should be power to sell those teinds. Therefore, we propose an Amendment providing that, notwithstanding anything in the Act of the Scots Parliament for renewing the Commission foe plantation of kirks and valuation of teinds, there should be this power to sell. I beg to move.
§ Vicarage teind not payable as stipend.
§ 15. Any person claiming right to vicarage teind exigible according to the present law and practice for any purpose other than stipend may, at any time within two years after the passing of this Act, apply to the Commissioners to find that his claim is valid, to ascertain the value of the vicarage teind so claimed and to make an Order for the commutation thereof. If no such application be made to the Commissioners within the period aforesaid, or if the Commissioners refuse such application, any right or claim with respect to such vicarage teind shall thereupon be at an end.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to leave out Clause 15. The noble and learned Viscount said: If your Lordships will take the trouble to turn to Clause 15 in the Bill, you will find that it is a clause the operation of which is 26 confined to vicarage teinds. They consist of fish and all sorts of things, and are not really germane to this Bill, and we have left them alone.
§ Clauses 16 and 17 agreed to.
§ LORD ELPHINSTONE moved, in subsection (1) (a), after "Act," where that word last occurs, to insert "decree of the Court of Session or Court of Teinds or agreement." The noble Lord said: Clause 18 define; the functions of the Scottish Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and provides, inter alia, that they may make orders for giving effect to schemes framed by the Commissioners with reference to burgh churches. The object of the words proposed to be added by this Amendment is to make certain that the Commissioners may also consider and inquire into the matter of burgh churches which are regulated not by Acts, either public, local or personal, but by decrees of the Court of Session or the Court of Teinds or by agreement. I beg to move.
The Government accept this Amendment, which is a useful one.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to leave out paragraph (f) of subsection (1). The noble and learned Viscount said: This paragraph relates to vicarage teinds and the Amendment is consequential.
§ Clauses 19 to 22 agreed to.
§ Proceedings relating to matters mentioned in Section 3 of the Ecclesiastical Buildings and Glebes (Scotland) Act, 1868.
§ 23. No proceedings relating to any of the matters mentioned in Section three of the Ecclesiastical Buildings and Glebes (Scotland) Act, 1868, shall be instituted or entertained before or by any presbytery or any court of law or the Commissioners except as hereinafter in this Act provided. The foregoing provision shall be deemed to have had effect as on and from the first day of January, nineteen hundred and twenty-four, but without prejudice to any proceedings instituted before that date or to the enforcement of any order, finding, judgment, interlocutor, or decree made, given, or pronounced therein.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to leave out "January" and insert "August." The noble and learned Viscount said: In this clause we have made an agreement with the landowners as to the liability for repairs, and we define it. They accept their liability, but this defines it. I beg to move the Amendment.
§ Transfer of right in parish churches und manses.
§ 24.—(1) Where a presbytery (whether on the representation of the minister concerned or otherwise) or the General Trustees are of opinion that any church or manse is not in such a state of repair as to be reasonably fit for occupation and that the duty of executing repair is incumbent upon heritors, the presbytery or the General Trustees, as the case may be, may agree with the heritors concerned for the repair of the same by or at the expense of the heritors or for the payment by the heritors to the General Trustees of a sum of money in lieu of repair and failing such agreement the presbytery or General Trustees may within one year after the passing of this Act apply to the sheriff for an order directing the heritors to carry out such repairs (if any) not involving structural additions, as he may consider necessary, or to make payment in lieu thereof. The sheriff shall deal with any such application in a summary manner and his decision shall be final.
(b) all rights of property in the said subjects shall by virtue of this Act and without the necessity of any further conveyance vest in and belong to the General Trustees, to the same effect as if a complete feudal title holding of the Crown in free blench farm for payment of a penny Scots yearly if asked only had been duly constituted in favour of the General Trustees.
§ (4) Whereas in certain parishes, not only the heritors, but also town councils in their capacity as town councils, are under the present law and practice liable in obligations relating to the church or manse, it shall be lawful in any such case, for the presbytery or the General Trustees or any other person concerned to apply to the sheriff to find and declare that the case ought to be dealt with by the Commissioners, and if the sheriff so finds and declares the provisions of this section shall have no further application to the case which shall thereafter be dealt with by the said Commissioners in accordance with the provisions of this Act relating to orders of Commissioners.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to leave out subsection (1) and to insert the following new subsection: (1) Where the General Trustees are of opinion that any church or manse is not in a reasonable state of tenantable repair and that the duty of executing repairs is incumbent upon heritors, the General Trustees may agree with the heritors concerned for the repair of the same by or at the expense of the heritors or for the payment by the heritors to the General Trustees of a sum of money in lieu of repair, and failing agreement the General Trustees may within three years after the passing of this Act apply to the sherill for an order directing the heritors to carry out such repairs (if any) not involving structural alterations as he may consider necessary, or if the General Trustees so require to pay to the General Trustees such sum of money in lieu of repair as the sheriff may determine. The sheriff shall deal with any such application in a summary manner and his decision shall he final.
§ The noble and learned Viscount said: This is an Amendment relating to repairs, and again it represents an agreement. I beg to move.
§ Page 19, line 40, leave out ("liability to assess") and insert ("obligation or liability to assess or to be assessed ").
§ Transfer of rights in glebes.
(ii) any of the costs, charges and expenses referred to in that section which have not been made a burden on the glebe may be dealt with, discharged and extinguished."
§ The noble Lord said: Where a glebe, or portion of a glebe, is suitable for building purposes, hitherto it has only been possible to feu the glebe subject to application to the Court, and the Court has also provided that certain capital expenditure may be burdened upon the glebe. The sources from which that capital expenditure could be repaid are being swept away by this Bill, and the object of this Amendment is to provide machinery for dealing with that capital expenditure. I beg to move.
The Government have accepted this Amendment, which is a useful one. It does not affect the heritors, but it does affect the Church. And it is to me personally a pleasure to see the noble Lord taking that interest in the affairs of the Church of Scotland which his father took.
§ Clause 26, as amended, agreed to.
§ Transfer of parish churchyards.
§ THE DUKE OF ATHOLL moved, after "Provided that," to insert "due regard and respect shall he had by the Parish Council to the memory of the dead and the wishes of their relatives before any ground already allocated as a burial ground shall be treated as being vacant and unoccupied ground and re-allocated by the Parish Council as the burial place for another family or for the interment of another body; provided also." The noble Duke said: Some people have suggested that provision should be put in 32 the Bill for protecting the family burial grounds. This clause has been drafted to meet those views, and it has been agreed to by the representatives of the Church of Scotland. I do not think I need explain it, unless your Lordships wish me to do so. I beg to move.
§ Clause 27, as amended, agreed to.
The Amendments standing in my name to this clause are really only drafting Amendments. I beg to move.
§ Page 23, line 31, after ("stipend") insert ("or standard charge ").
§ Clause 28, as amended, agreed to.
§ Powers of General Trustees.
§ 29. In addition to any powers which they already enjoy, the General Trustees shall have power to hold, maintain, administer, and dispose of any property of whatsoever description transferred to, or received by, or vested in them under, or in pursuance of this Act, subject always to the provisions of this Act and to the directions of the General Assembly. Without prejudice to the foregoing generality, the General Trustees shall have power, subject as aforesaid, to compromise or settle any claim against any heritor or other person arising out of anything contained in this Act or done thereunder.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after "General Assembly," to insert "provided that the General Trustees before selling or feuing a glebe or any part thereof shall give to the heritor or heritors whose lands adjoin such glebe or part an opportunity to purchase or take the same in feu at such price or feu duty and on such terms as may be agreed upon between the General Trustees and 33 the heritor or heritors, or as may, failing agreement, be determined by an arbiter appointed by the sheriff on the application of either party." The noble and learned Viscount said: This Amendment really gives effect to the principle of the present law. I beg to move.
§ Clause 29, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 30 agreed to.
§ Redemption of manse mail.
§ ". Where in any parish manse mail is at the passing of this Act payable in lieu of a manse the heritors legally liable in payment thereof shall redeem the manse mail by payment to the General Trustees of a sum equal to the annual amount thereof multiplied by twenty, such redemption payment to be made within five years after the passing of this Act."
§ The noble and learned Viscount said: We propose to insert a new clause relating to the manse mail. It is not connected with the delivering of letters, but in the case of some manses there is a sum of money payable to the minister in place of the usual convenience, and we are putting in words to keep it alive.
§ Clause 31 agreed to.
§ Ultimate extinction of teind.
(b) All claims in respect of surplus teinds of any lands in that parish shall likewise cease and be extinguished, in so far as such claims have not already ceased and been extinguished in terms of the section of this Act relating to redemption of surplus teinds.
§ (2) Upon the expiry of ten years after the passing of this Act, all claims in respect of the vicarage teinds of any land in Scotland, other than vicarage teinds payable as stipend, shall cease and be extinguished n so far as such claims have not already ceased and been extinguished by failure of any party entitled thereto to apply to the Commissioners in terms of the section of this Act relating to vicarage teinds not payable as stipend, or by the operation of any order made by the Commissioners.
§ Nothing in this section shall prejudice or affect any proceedings in respect of stipend exigible from teind or in respect of surplus teinds, or in respect of vicarage teinds other than vicarage teinds payable as stipend instituted prior to the expiry of the respective periods aforesaid.
The Amendment to leave out this clause is consequential.
§ ". For the removing of doubt, it is hereby declared that, notwithstanding anything contained in Section fifty-four of the Poor Law (Scotland) Act, 1845, or in any other enactment, all moneys arising from the ordinary church collections in any parish shall belong to and be at the disposal of the kirk session of the parish, subject only to review of the higher courts of the church."
This addition to the Bill will be a comfort to such of your Lordships as put half-a-crown into the plate in any Scottish kirk, and the Government agrees with it.
§ Clauses 33 and 34 agreed to.
§ Saxing for obligations or relief.
§ ". Nothing in this Act shall prejudice or affect any obligation to relieve the heritor of any lands from liability in respect of any stipend or augmentation thereof exigible from the teinds of such lands, and any such obligation shall extend to relief from liability in respect of any standard charge over those lands."
§ The noble and learned Viscount said: These are words which it is proper to put in the Bill in order to keep the law alive.
All the Amendments to this clause are drafting. They make no difference whatever.
§ Page 27, line 19 after ("grass") insert ("servitudes or right of pasturage ").
§ Page 27, line 23, leave out ("Lord Ordinary has the same meaning") and insert ("Manse" and "Lord Ordinary" have the same meanings ").

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