Source: https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1984/oct/24/commons-amendments-2
Timestamp: 2019-04-21 18:43:25+00:00

Document:
§ 87 Clause 48, page 31, line 9, after ("road") insert ("or of a proposed public road which is in course of construction").
§ 88 line 16, after ("road") insert (" (or proposed road) ").
§ 89 line 18, leave out ("lands and heritages") and insert ("land").
§ 90 after ("road") insert (" (or proposed road) ").
§ 91 line 19, leave out subsection (3) and insert— (" (3) Paragraph 23 of the telecommunications code (which provides a procedure for certain cases where works involve the alteration of telecommunication apparatus) shall, subject to subsection (4) below, apply, for the purposes of any works which may be done in exercise of the powers conferred by this section, to the roads authority. (4) Where the roads authority is the Secretary of State, sub-paragraph (8) of paragraph 23 of the telecommunications code (offence) shall be omitted for the purposes of the application of that paragraph to him by subsection (3) above. ").
§ 92 Clause 50, page 32, line 3, leave out ("any").
§ 93 line 4, leave out ("any") and insert ("a").
§ 94 line 5, leave out ("any") and insert ("a").
§ 95 after ("or") insert ("as the case may be").
§ 96 line 9, leave out ("a") and insert ("any").
§ 97 line 10, after ("the") insert ("last mentioned").
§ 98 line 18, after ("road") insert ("proposed road").
§ 99 line 21, after first ("road") insert (" (or proposed road) ").
§ 100 leave out ("the surroundings of the road") and insert ("its surroundings").
§ 101 line 23, after ("road") insert (" (or proposed road) ").
§ 102 Clause 52, page 33, line 7, after ("road") insert (" , or a proposed road in course of construction,").
§ 103 Clause 53, page 33, line 12, after ("road") insert (" , or a proposed public road which is to be a trunk road,").
§ 104 line 14, after ("road") insert ("or proposed road").
§ 105 Clause 54, page 34, line 19, leave out ("six") and insert ("twelve").
§ 106 Clause 56, page 36, line 18, at end insert (" : Provided that the foregoing provisions of this subsection shall not constitute a defence as regards any such contravention as is mentioned in section (Saving for, and extension of section 80 of, Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974) (1) of this Act.").
§ 107 Clause 57, page 37, line 18, after ("authority" insert ("or by a constable in uniform").
§ 108 line 26, after ("authority") insert ("or a constable").
§ 109 after ("obstruction") insert (" (or cause it to be removed) ").
§ 110 line 32, at end insert (" , except that where the removal is by a constable the said subsections (8) and (9) shall be read as if any reference therein to the roads authority were a reference to the police authority.").
§ (b) to works to which the street works code, as contained in the Public Utilities Street Works Act 1950, applies.").
§ 113 Clause 58, page 38, line 27, after ("or") insert ("reasonable").
§ 114 line 30, after ("removes") insert (", interferes with").
§ 115 Clause 59, page 39, line 4, after ("road") insert ("or proposed public road").
§ 116 line 5, after ("road") insert ("or proposed road").
§ 117 at end insert— (" (1A) In subsection (1) above, "proposed public road" means a new road in course of construction by or on behalf of the roads authority.").
§ 118 Clause 60, page 39, line 23, leave out ("12") and insert ("14").
§ 119 leave out ("1967") and insert ("1984").
§ 120 line 31, after ("and") insert (" (where practicable)").
§ 122 line 8, at end insert— (" ; or (b) 16 years of age (not being such child as is mentioned in paragraph (a) above) to drive that vehicle on a road other than under the immediate supervision of a person of 18 years of age or more.").
§ 123 Clause 64, page 41, line 27, at end insert— (" (3) A person upon whom a notice has been served under subsection (2) above may, within the 28 days mentioned in that subsection, refer the matter by summary application to the sheriff; and the decision of the sheriff on the matter shall be final. (4) A local roads authority may, if they think fit, pay the whole or any part of any expenditure incurred by a person in complying with subsection (1) or (2) above.").
§ 124 Clause 66, page 42, line 19. after ("shall") insert (", except in a case to which section 125 of this Act applies,").
§ 125 Clause 67, page 42, line 26, leave out ("public road") and insert ("road or proposed road,").
§ 126 leave out ("or premises").
§ 127 line 29, leave out ("or premises").
§ 128 Clause 68, page 42, line 40, after ("68") insert ("(1)").
§ 129 line 43, leave out ("or premises").
§ 130 page 43, line 4, leave out ("or premises").
§ 131 line 5, at end insert— ("(2) The references in subsection (1) above to a special road and to a main road shall be construed as including references to a proposed such road.").
§ 132 Clause 69, page 43, line 29, leave out ("or premises").
§ 133 line 32, leave out ("or premises").
§ 134 line 35, leave out ("or premises").
§ 135 page 44, line 1, leave out ("or premises").
§ 136 line 6, leave out ("or premises").
§ 137 line 7, leave out ("or premises").
§ 138 Clause 70, page 44, line 13, leave out ("or premises").
§ 139 line 15, leave out ("or premises").
§ 140 after ("road") insert (", or proposed public road,").
§ 141 line 16, leave out ("or premises").
shall be construed as including a reference to a proposed trunk, special or public road as the case may be.").
§ 143 line 37, leave out subsection (8) and insert— ("(8) Paragraph 23 of the telecommunications code (which provides a procedure for certain cases where works involve the alteration of telecommunication apparatus) shall, subject to subsection (9) below, apply, for the purposes of any works authorised by a scheme made under subsection (3) above, to the roads authority. 237 (9) Where the roads authority is the Secretary of State, sub-paragraph (8) of paragraph 23 of the telecommunications code (offence) shall be omitted for the purposes of the application of that paragraph to him by subsection (8) above.").
§ 144 Clause 76, page 48, line 12, after ("road") insert (" (or proposed public road)").
§ 145 line 44, at end insert— ("(4) In subsection (2)(6) above the reference to a body acting under statutory powers includes a reference to the operator of a telecommunications code system (whether or not a body) acting in pursuance of any right conferred by or in accordance with the telecommunications code.").
§ 146 Clause 77, page 49, line 1, leave out ("13(7)") and insert ("(Power to contribute to. or carry out, work on private roads) (1)").
§ 147 Clause 81, page 53, line 2, after ("fence,") insert ("advertising hoarding,").
§ 148 line 8, leave out ("or fence") and insert (", fence or advertising hoarding").
§ 149 line 12, at end insert— ("(1A) In subsection (1) above "advertising hoarding" means a hoarding or similar structure used, or adapted for use, for the display of advertisements.").
(b) if the authority consider reinstatement of the road to be requisite, shall carry out such reinstatement.").
§ 151 Clause 87, page 56, line 33, leave out ("on") and insert ("onto").
§ 152 Clause 91, page 59, line 32, after ("road") insert ("—(a)").
§ 153 line 36, leave out ("as") and insert— ("; (b) and is a building constitutes a danger to road users and there is no other such provision as aforesaid, they shall under this subsection take such steps by way of enclosure or screening, as").
§ 154 Clause 92, page 61, line 13, leave out ("and").
§ 155 line 14, after ("works") insert ("; and "public road" includes a proposed public road.").
§ 156 Clause 93, page 61, line 18, after ("material") insert ("(of whatever nature)").
§ 157 line 19, after ("drop") insert ("onto").
§ 158 Clause 94, page 62, line 22, leave out from ("shall") to ("within") in line 25 and insert ("not be commenced later than 12 months after the damage has been done unless that damage is the consequence of a particular building contract or of work extending over a long period, in which case they may, notwithstanding that such period of 12 months has elapsed, be commenced").
§ 159 Clause 95, page 62, line 39, leave out ("reference") and insert ("references").
§ 160 after ("subsection") insert ("and in subsection (4) below").
§ 161 line 40, leave out ("includes") and insert ("include").
§ 162 Page 63, line 7, at end insert— ("(aa) the sale or offer or exposure for sale of things in, and as part of, a relevant public market;").
Provided that in establishing or holding, or fixing the place of, the market and in regulating it the council shall consult the roads authority and shall, so far as the council consider it practicable to do so, give effect to any recommendation as respects the market made to them by the roads authority in the interests of road users;").
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 87 to 163 en bloc. Again, I should be happy to answer any questions on this matter.
§ 164 Clause 96, page 63, line 33, leave out ("public").
§ 165 line 35, at end insert ("or by a constable; and the person so leaving an animal or allowing it so to stray commits an offence.").
§ 166 line 38, after ("authority") insert (", or as the case may be from the police authority,").
§ 167 line 39, at end insert— (" : Provided that no such payment shall be exigible where the owner took all reasonable steps to ensure that the animal was not so left as is mentioned in subsection (1) above or, as the case may be, did not so stray as is there mentioned.").
§ 168 line 40, at beginning insert ("Subject to the proviso to subsection (2) above,").
§ 169 after ("authority") insert ("or as the case may be police authority").
§ 170 Page 64, line 4, at end insert ("or as the case may be police authority. (4A) In proceedings for an offence under subsection (1) above, it shall be a defence for a person accused of allowing an animal to stray onto a road to prove that he took all reasonable steps to prevent such straying.").
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 164 to 170 en bloc. It would be for convenience if I may speak also to Amendment No. 227.
§ Commons Amendment No. 227: Schedule 7, page 110, line 31, at end insert— ("22A. Section 96(1) (leaving animal on, or Level 3.") allowing it to stray onto, road).
§ Amendments Nos. 164 to 166, and Nos. 169, 170 and 227 were made in the light of comments that were received from two sources. The first was from the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland and the second was from COSLA. The amendments make three distinct changes to Clause 96. The first change is that since the straying of an animal is a safety hazard which should be prevented on any road, the clause is no longer confined to public roads. I would point your Lordships to the definition of a road in the definition clause of the Bill, which provides that a road is that over which the public have a right of passage, and comprehends, of course, not only public but private roads.
§ Secondly, again bearing in mind the need to secure safety on the roads, under the clause the police have been given the same powers of seizure and detention as road authorities have. Again, I suggest to your Lordships that this is compatible with that need. For instance, police in a patrol car or (dare I say it?) on foot might well be able to seize and detain an erring animal and perhaps prevent a bull in a china shop situation developing.
§ Finally, provision in existing legislation which makes it an offence to allow an animal to stray on a road has been reinstated. It appears that the mere existence of such an offence has had a salutary effect on 239 those responsible for animals. But, in order to ensure that nobody is unjustly convicted through no fault of his own, the amendments have made it a defence to prove that all reasonable steps were taken to prevent the animal straying. Amendments Nos. 167 and 168 ensure that an owner will not be required to pay the costs of detention of his animals if they strayed onto a road through no fault of his own, perhaps because walkers left a gate open. The owner would not be required to make such payment if he has taken all reasonable steps to ensure that his animals do not stray onto a road.
My Lords, I am merely checking the progress of the Bill at this point so that we can be told exactly what change in the law there is. In certain parts of the country there have been occasions when, if an animal strayed on the road and a motorist hit it, the motorist, rather than the owner of the animal, was liable. What I want to get clear from the Lord Advocate is, first, what is the present law, and, secondly, what change this makes?
Noble Lords will remember that there have been one or two recent cases in Scotland—one a very serious one—where animals strayed. They strayed not only on to public roads but actually on to a railway track and caused a very serious accident. That is not necessarily covered by this. I do not think the permanent way is covered even by the strange language that we have in this Bill. I should like the Lord Advocate to make it absolutely clear to everyone exactly what the present law is and what change is being made by this.
It is not going to be very easy to prove that any farmer deliberately left a gate open. This is rather important. I heard of a recent case in Dumfriesshire where a car driving along a trunk road was suddenly confronted by a bull. The car was travelling at about 40 or 50 miles an hour. The car hit the animal, but what might well have been a serious accident fortuitously and happily turned out to be a mishap rather than an accident. But who is responsible? It is easy for the farmer to say, "Someone else opened the gate", or, "Somebody broke down the fence". As far as I can see, the change that is made here—the Lord Advocate can correct me if I am wrong—is that it gives a reasonable "out" to the farmer and reduces the possibility of any help to the motorist, or the pedestrian, for that matter, who is harmed by a straying animal, as in the case I cited.
My Lords, I am concerned about the areas where there are unfenced roads. In the Borders, for example, there are a great many sheep and one cannot fence all the roads because it would involve miles and miles of fencing. Nearly always there is a notice saying, "Beware of sheep". But if there is not, and if the animals are in the way and one cannot possibly fence the roads, what happens? Whose responsibility is it if an animal is killed?
My Lords, let me deal first with the matter of the offence. The amendments re-enact the offence which existed in terms of the 240 Roads and Bridges (Scotland) Act 1878. However, they provide the defence—which is set out—that all reasonable steps were taken to prevent the animal from straying. I want to make it quite clear that the reason why this has been reinstated is that it is the view of the authorities most interested in this matter that the existence of such an offence has been salutary and obviously, as your Lordships will understand, anything which tries to contain animals from straying on to roads where vehicles or others may pass, is something to be commended. I would merely say in regard to the question of proof that these are obviously matters which the prosecution will have to take into account when it is considering whether any prosecution should follow.
But I still say and suggest to your Lordships that it is appropriate to have this provision on the statute book for the purpose for which it is there; namely, to secure safety on the roads. Perhaps I should say that of course this is in relation to criminal law; it does not deal with the liability arising under the civil law which is the type of case of which the noble Lord opposite was perhaps thinking, where there may, I appreciate, be difficulties in proving negligence where there has been a straying animal. For the very same reason it may be that the owner of the animal cannot be traced or, if traced, may have taken all reasonable steps to prevent the animal straying.
The noble Baroness asked me about the situation when animals stray on to roads that are unfenced. Again it would be a question of the owner taking reasonable steps in those circumstances to prevent the animal straying on to the road. I do not think that I can assist your Lordships further on this matter.
My Lords, surely the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate would agree that the result of a prosecution would considerably affect the result of a civil action. Can the noble Lord tell me how many prosecutions there have been in, for example, the last year or so in respect of owners allowing their animals to stray on public roads?
My Lords, I am not in a position to give that information, but I should be happy to write to the noble Lord with the information.
My Lords, further to the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, about unfenced roads and with reference to the terms of Amendment No. 170, would the putting up of a notice saying, "Beware of sheep" on unfenced roads, be regarded as having taken "all reasonable steps", not to prevent the animal straying, but to warn people of the possibility?
My Lords, a lawyer is always very cautious about giving legal advice in a matter of this type, particularly since the amendment provides that it is for the defence to prove that all reasonable steps were taken to prevent the animal straying. No doubt one of the matters which the court could well take into account would be the provision of notices informing the public of the danger. However, I obviously cannot give any undertaking and would 241 not seek to do so to your Lordships. It must always be a matter for the particular circumstances of the particular case.
§ 171 Clause 97, page 64, line 8, leave out ("lands and heritages") and insert ("land").
§ 172 line 9, leave out ("those lands and heritages are") and insert ("that land is").
§ 173 line 9, leave out ("constitute") and insert ("constitutes").
§ 174 line 12, leave out ("lands and heritages") and insert ("land").
§ 175 line 23, leave out ("lands and heritages") and insert ("land").
(c) a special road shall be construed as including a reference to a proposed public road which is to be a special road.").
§ 177 Clause 103, page 66, line 31, after ("road") insert (" (or proposed public road) ").
§ 178 line 40, after ("road") insert (" (or proposed public road) ").
§ 179 Clause 105, page 68, line 29, leave out ("require") and insert ("acquire").
§ 180 Clause 107, page 69, line 3, at end insert— ("(4) In subsection (3) above and in Schedule 5 to this Act, references to a road and to a public road shall be construed, respectively, as including references to a proposed road and to a proposed public road.").
§ 181 Clause 109, page 70, line 28, at end insert— ("(3) In the foregoing provisions of this section, references to special roads or to trunk roads shall be construed as including references to proposed public roads which are to be special roads or as the case may be are to be trunk roads.").
§ 183 Clause 112, page 73, line 14, after second ("of) insert ("the").
§ 184 After Clause 114, insert the following new clause: ("Compensation where interest in land subject to heritable security. . Subsection (4) of section 167 of the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1972 (provisions as to compensation where an interest in land is subject to a heritable security) shall apply in relation to such compensation as is mentioned in section 69(6), 70( 1 ), 81 (7) or 86(2), or as may be provided for in an agreement under section 51 (2), of this Act as the said subsection (4) applies in relation to compensation to which the said section 167 applies.").
§ 185 Clause 116, page 75, line 40, at end insert— ("(5) In the foregoing provisions of this section, references to a road shall be construed as including references to a proposed road.").
§ 186 Clause 117, page 75, line 43, after ("road") insert ("or of repairing a prospective public road").
§ 187 line 44, at end insert— ("(1A) In subsection (1) above "prospective public road" has the same meaning as in the Public Utilities Street Works Act 1950.").
§ 188 Clause 121, page 77, line 19, leave out ("29A of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1967") and insert ("34 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984").
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 242 171 to 188 en bloc. Again I should be happy to provide further information if your Lordships wish.
§ 189 After Clause 121, insert the following new Clause: ("Restricted roads: amendment of Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984. . Schedule (Restricted roads) to this Act (which amends provisions regarding restricted roads under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984) shall have effect.").
§ 1. The Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 shall be amended in accordance with this Schedule.
(a) after the word "if there shall be inserted "—(a)"
; and (b) the road is of a classification or type specified for the purposes of this subsection in regulations made by the Secretary of State.".
(5A) In any proceedings for a contravention of section 81 of this Act, a certificate of an officer of the Secretary of State that a road is of a specified classification or type shall be sufficient evidence of the facts certified; and a document purporting to be such a certificate and to be signed by such an officer shall be deemed to be such a certificate uniess the contrary is shown.".
§ 4. In section 134(2) (provisions as to regulations), after the word "sections" there shall be inserted the words "82(1),".
§ the roads authority may, prior to the commencement of the regulations, make an order specifying the road, and the road shall, notwithstanding the commencement of the regulations, continue to be, or to be deemed to be, a restricted road or, as the case may be, a road which is not a restricted road until such time as the order is superseded, in relation to that road, 243 by a direction under section 82(2) of that Act (directions making specified roads restricted or not restricted) or an order under section 84(1) of that Act (power to fix speed limits).").
§ These amendments have been introduced following representations by local roads authorities and by the police about problems which exist in applying speed limit control provisions, especially those arising out of the classification of roads as restricted roads.
§ As your Lordships will be aware, a "restricterd road" is automatically subject to a 30 miles per hour speed limit. The basic criterion for such a road is that it has a system of street lighting with lamps not more that 185 metres apart. Under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1967, a second determining factor was that a road was unclassified or, if it was a trunk or classified road, had a system of street lighting prior to 1st July 1957.
§ As a consequence of those provisions it became difficult as time passed to establish which roads had lights prior to that date in July 1957. Accordingly, problems arose with prosecutions for speeding offences on some roads. In the Transport Act 1982, amending provisions aimed at remedying the situation were introduced, but these have proved complicated to operate. They have had the adverse effect of applying a 30 miles per hour limit, whether appropriate or not, to any road on which lights are installed. To apply the appropriate limit, roads authorities were faced with a wasteful requirement to make individual speed limit control orders. The amendments made by the 1982 Act also made reference to a specific date—1st November 1982—and that has caused problems which they were meant to solve.
§ As your Lordships are aware, the existing provisions within these Acts were consolidated in the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984. It was accordingly considered as a result of the representations by the local roads authorities and the police that it would be best to bring in a method of classifying roads as restricted roads which would be simpler to operate. This would also result in a revised system of speed limit control which would not require the re-education of drivers and which would involve minimum public expenditure. The amendments implement such a system. They are amendments which have been agreed in discussion between the Scottish Office, local authorities, the police and the Crown Office. They provide that "restricted roads" will be those which are of a class or type specified by the Secretary of State in regulations and which have a system of carriageway lighting provided by lamps not more that 185 metres apart.
§ In proceedings for a speeding offence on a restricted road, a certificate, signed by an officer or the Secretary of State, as to a road's classification or type will be evidence of the facts certified. Other roads will of course be subject to the prevailing national speed limits. In all cases however a roads authority may impose a different speed limit on a road by order, subject to compliance with relevant procedures.
§ In order to enable existing speed limits to be maintained which would otherwise be affected by the changes, the amendments empower roads authorities to make transitional orders. These orders can be simply made. Since they will maintain the status quo, 244 they will not require to be advertised and no provision is made for objections to them.
My Lords, the House will be grateful to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate for his explanation of these particular amendments. The House will also be hopeful that the amendments will do the job which he expects them to do. I do not think there is any doubt that the link between lighting and speed restrictions in many cases is now outdated. The noble and learned Lord will be as aware as I am that in Scotland the M.8, the A.77 and the A.74 are fairly long stretches of road which have been released from restrictions, and to these roads the standard national speed limits apply.
There is some genuine concern at what the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State said at the Committee stage in another place. He said: I hope the House will agree that the existing position is near to complete collapse. He continued: It is evident that a revised system of determining speed limit control is necessary". This was after the amendment of the 1982 Act which it was hoped would clear up the matter of speed limits. This is where I and a number of other people and groups become slightly concerned. The amendment of 1982 was introduced with a little panic and some haste in order to stop a gap. I understand that the gap had become so wide that in many circumstances certain police forces were not willing to risk trying to prosecute. One gets an uneasy feeling that in this particular instance, this amendment coming as late in the Bill as this, there has perhaps been some panic in trying to standardise the whole question of the speed limit.
The noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate said that there had been consultation with local authorities and the police. I should like to know whether, for instance, any of the motoring organisations, any reputable authorities concerned with traffic or any other organisations concerned with lorries, freight transport, and so on, have been asked for their impressions of the proposed amendments to the Bill. Perhaps most important of all, I should like to know what consideration was given to the Department of Transport's paper, Restricted Roads—an Alternative Approach, a copy of which I was only able to obtain this morning. That is the speed at which things appear to be changing. It appears as though in England and Wales the Department of Transport is moving away from the idea that lighting should determine what the speed limit should be and that they are talking about an overall urban speed limit with exceptions within that urban area.
Therefore, if these amendments go through—and I have no doubt that they will—it could very well be that, according to the suggestions of this consultative document from the Department of Transport, Scotland would have a different system from that which operates in England and Wales. As there is much cross-border traffic, it seems to me that there 245 should have been a little more correspondence between the two bodies—the Scottish people involved in road traffic and the Department of Transport.
It was unfortunate that the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 was amended in such a way that the Secretary of State is under no duty to consult. I know that it is always difficult to name names or to make specific recommendations as to who should be consulted; but if the Secretary of State and his officers know that they have a duty to consult people, I am sure that they know exactly to whom to go to get a respectable and reputable opinion on new legislation. These are important points, and it is perhaps unfortunate that if new regulations are adopted in England and Wales which prove better, we shall fairly soon have an amendment to this particular Bill.
Finally, in the phrase: a system of carriageway lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than 185 metres apart why was the word "carriageway" used when in every other part of the Bill almost every reference to "street" or "highway" has been thrown out and replaced by the word "road"? What is the precise meaning of "carriageway" in this connection? Is the expression actually defined in the Bill for the purposes that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate and the Bill intend?
This is a very late amendment. I am not sure that it will work. We all have reason to be slightly unhappy about the history of the speed limit law, particularly in Scotland, and perhaps it would have been better if a little longer time had been taken before an amendment had been made in the existing regulations.
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for having raised these points, and in some ways perhaps it is an omission on my part that I have not made the distinction clearly enough between the matter of classification and the actual signing of roads. I think that the signing of roads will remain the same on both sides of the border, and therefore so far as the ordinary driver is concerned he will notice no difference.
The purpose of this amendment is to provide a better way of classifying roads as restricted roads—a way which will not be subject to the vagaries of past legislation—in requiring that there should be both a system of street lighting and then, in addition that a road was unclassified, or if, it was a trunk or classified road, had been provided with such a system of street lighting prior to a certain date.
As I understand it, proposals are presently being considered in England and Wales on the method to be adopted to classify restricted roads which may or may not fall in line with the proposals which are suggested in these amendments. I think it proper to inform your Lordships that what is pesently in mind in England is one of the alternatives considered by the authorities, to which I referred. It was considered that the system which is now presented in these amendments was a better one and had the added advantage that it involved a minimum of public expenditure. I am sure that your Lordships will support such a course.
So far as the last aspect the noble Lord asked me about is concerned, the reason the phrase "carriage- 246 way lighting" is used in these amendments is that it is simply to make it clear beyond peradventure that it is lighting which is aimed to fight up the road—that is, the roadway on which vehicles pass—as opposed, as is sometimes the case, to lighting which is directed merely to lighting a footway; that is to say, that along which foot passengers, and not vehicles, pass. I hope that with these explanations the noble Lord's fears are to a large extent allayed.
My Lords, I should be happy with that explanation if it told us anything. The noble and learned Lord mentioned the system in these amendments. What is the system in these amendments? Am I right in thinking that these amendments only give power to the Secretary of State to specify what is a restricted road? We know what the system is, but we do not know what it is going to be.
Concerning the explanation of "carriageway", I do not know whether the noble and learned Lord knows it, but "street" is a dirty word. We are coming, I think, to Amendment No. 226 to Schedule 8, and the purpose of this schedule is to get rid of the word "highway". I do not know what we are going to do with the Highway Code, because there will be no such thing as a "highway" in Scotland after we pass this Bill. Streets are out, roads are in. We are going to codify and modernise the language and here we go back to the word "carriageway". A more gracious way of living is evoked by the word "carriageway", rather than by what we are now presented with, and we are told that this is to light up the roadway. We have gone right round in a circle.
I have said that the draftsmen have gone mad on this Bill. Take Schedule 8 that we are now on, with Amendment No. 226. It started out with 26 pages. By the time it left this House it had 60 pages. By the time we finish it today and we agree to these amendments—and we are all going to agree to them, because I am so sick of this Bill that I would agree to anything—nothing at all will be added, apart from two or three clauses which could have been in a small Bill and gone through this House in no time. There will now be 71 pages for Schedule 8.
All it does is get rid of words which we quite reasonably understood; simple words such as "highway" and "street". Do not let me go on, my Lords. But may I have an explanation in relation to what the Lord Advocate, in all his glory—nearly as fine looking a man as his father, who is a judge in Scotland—tells us about this new system? What is the new system? There is no new system here. All we do is give power to the Secretary of State to produce a system. We do not know what the system is. Should I be comforted by the fact that when he draws up his new system he will consult the motoring organisations as well as the local authorities and the police authorities?
My Lords, as briefly as I can, I shall endeavour to answer the points made by the noble Lord opposite. I appreciate from the remarks that have fallen from him today and from my reading of other occasions that he dislikes this Bill. However, it is only fair to say that it is at long last bringing up to date matters with regard to roads in 247 Scotland and is repealing a considerable amount of previous legislation. I assure your Lordships that one of the great things is to try to find provisions in one Bill, rather than spread them about over a number.
On the particular point raised with regard to the system, obviously the system depends on two things. The first is, that it is operated by the Secretary of State in regulations, and it is to deal with unclassified and Class C roads which are provided with a system of carriageway lighting—I observe the noble Lord's dislike of the word "carriageway", though it is one which is used often even in law courts—provided by lamps not more than 185 metres apart. If the system is adopted, it will perhaps avoid a return to your Lordships' House in due course for further amendment.
§ . After section 132 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 there shall be inserted the following section— Power of Secretary of State to extend provisions of this Act etc. to proposed roads in Scotland.
§ (2) No regulation under subsection (1) above shall Purport to have, the effect of rendering roads in criminal conduct (or omissions) which, but for the Scotland, regulations, would not be criminal.
§ (3) The foregoing provisions of this section are without prejudice to the exercise of any other power under this Act.
§ (4) In subsections (1) and (2) above— proposed road" has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984; and relevant reference" means a reference to a road in a provision of, or made by, under or by virtue of, this Act.").
§ 191 After Clause 121 insert the following new clause— ("Saving for and extension of section 80 of Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 —(1) Nothing in this Act authorises the carrying out of any operation in contravention of "the relevant statutory provisions" defined in Part I of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 or in contravention of any regulation made, or prohibition notice or improvement notice served, under or by virtue of that Act or any of those provisions. (2) For the purposes of the application of section 80(1) of the said Act of 1974 (general power to repeal or modify Acts and instruments where such repeal or modification appears expedient in consequence of or in connection with any provision made by or under Part I of that Act), this Act shall be deemed an Act passed before that Act.").
§ 192 Clause 125, page 80, leave out from ("any") in line 6 to end of line 12 and insert— ("rights conferred by or in accordance with the telecommunications code on the operator of a telecommunications code system or any duty of any such operator under that code; or (b) applies to any telecommunication apparatus kept installed for the purposes of any such system.").
§ 193 line 17, leave out from ("road") to ("shall") in line 21 and insert ("any telecommunication apparatus kept installed for the purposes of a telecommunications code system, the operator of that system").
§ 194 line 22, leave out ("line") and insert ("apparatus").
§ 195 line 22, at end insert ("; but any person entitled to land over which the road subsisted may require the alteration of the apparatus.").
§ 196 line 23, leave out subsection (3).
§ 197 line 30, leave out (", not being a trunk road").
§ 198 line 33, leave out from ("road") to end of line 7 on page 81 and insert— ("any telecommunication apparatus kept installed for the purposes of a telecommunications code system, the roads authority shall be entitled to require the alteration of the apparatus. This subsection does not have effect so far as it relates to the alteration of any telecommunication apparatus for the purpose of authority's work as defined in Part II of the Public Utilities Street Works Act 1950. (4A) Paragraph 1(2) of the telecommunications code (alteration of apparatus to include moving, removal or replacement of apparatus) shall apply for the purposes of subsections ( 1 ), (2) and (4) above as it applies for the purposes of that code. (4B) Paragraph 21 of the telecommunications code (restriction on removal of telecommunication apparatus) shall apply in relation to any right conferred by this section to require the alteration, moving or replacement of any telecommunication apparatus as it applies in relation to a right to require the removal of such apparatus.").
§ 199 Clause 128, page 83, line 11, leave out ("126,") and insert ("127),").
§ 200 Clause 138, page 89, line 3, after "may" insert ", subject to subsection (5) below and to subsection (7)(i) of the said section 5,".
which has not been opened for the purposes of through traffic, is revoked at any time before the special road, main road, bridge or tunnel is opened for the purposes of through traffic, Schedules 1 and 2 to this Act shall have no effect as regards the revocation but, within 28 days of the revocation, notice of it shall be published by the Secretary of State in the Edinburgh Gazette and in such other manner as he thinks best adapted for informing persons affected.").
§ 202 Clause 144, page 91, leave out lines 24 and 25 and insert— (" "footpath" shall be construed in accordance with subsections (2) and (3)(a) and (b), and "footway" in accordance with subsection (2), below;").
§ 203 line 26, after ("road") insert ("or proposed road").
§ 204 line 27, leave out ("lands and heritages") and insert ("land").
§ 205 line 27, leave out ("that road") and insert ("it").
§ 206 page 92, line 16, at end insert— (" "operator", in relation to a telecommunications code system, has the same meaning as in pragraph 1 of Schedule 4 to the Telecommunications Act 1984;").
§ 207 line 26, after ("roads") insert ("(whether existing or proposed)").
§ 208 line 28, leave out ("premises") and inert ("land").
§ 209 line 32, after ("riders") insert ("or which complies with the requirements specified in Regulation 4 of the Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles Regulations 1983").
(b) an existing road which is a prospective public road within the meaning of the Public Utilities Street Works Act 1950;").
§ 211 page 93, line 2, after first ("road") insert ("or proposed road,").
§ 212 line 2, leave out second ("road").
§ 213 line 7, after ("road") insert ("(whether existing or in course of construction)").
§ 214 line 9, after ("(5)") insert ("(or to be provided by him under section 7(5)(a) or (b))").
§ 215 line 10, after ("constructed") insert ("(or to be constructed)").
§ 216 line 21, leave out ("British Telecommunications") and insert (", except in sections 126 and 133(4) of this Act, the operator of any telecommunications code system").
§ 217 line 24, at end insert— (" "telecommunication apparatus", "the telecommunications code" and "telecommunications code system" have the same meanings as in pragraph 1 of Schedule 4 to the Telecommunications Act 1984;".
§ 218 Page 93, line 29, leave out ("54(1)") and insert ("64(1)").
§ 219 line 30, leave out ("1967") and insert ("1984").
§ 220 Page 94, line 19, after ("road") insert ("or proposed road").
§ 221 line 34, at end insert— (" (4) Any reference in this Act to apparatus belonging to statutory undertakers shall, in relation to the operator of a telecommunications code system, have effect as a reference to telecommunication apparatus kept installed for the purposes of that system.").
§ 222 Page 97, line 8, at beginning insert ("Subject to subsection (2A) below,").
§ 223 line 9, at end insert (" (in this Act referred to as "the commencement of this Act").
§ (2A) The following provisions of this Act shall come into force on such day as the Secretary of State may by order appoint, and different days may be so appointed for different provisions, for different purposes and for different areas— sections 35 to 39; section (Restricted roads: amendment of Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984) and Schedule (Restricted Roads); section 149(3) and Schedule 10 in so far as they relate to Schedule 10 to the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984.").
§ 224 Schedule 1, page 99, line 32, column 2, leave out ("premises") and insert ("land").
§ 228 Schedule 8, page 112, line 38, leave out ("12") and insert ("7.62").
§ 229 line 39, leave out ("4") and insert ("3.66").
§ 230 line 41, leave out ("6") and insert ("4.57").
§ 231 line 42, leave out ("4") and insert ("3.05").
§ 232 line 47, leave out ("4") and insert ("3.66").
§ 233 Page 113, line 1, leave out ("3") and insert ("2.74").
§ 234 line 2, leave out ("5") and insert ("4.27").
§ 235 line 4, leave out ("30") and insert ("20").
§ 236 line 9, leave out ("1½") and insert ("1.22").
§ 237 line 9, leave out ("1") and insert ("0.91").
§ 238 line 13, leave out ("12") and insert ("7.62").
§ 239 line 13, leave out ("4") and insert ("3.66").
§ 240 line 15, leave out ("30") and insert ("20").
(b) in subsection (5), the words "the term 'street' shall include any square, court, or alley, highway, lane, road, thoroughfare, or public passage or place whatever, and" shall cease to have effect.").
§ 242 Page 119, line 42, after ("substitution") insert— (a) for any reference to a relevant telecommunications operator of a reference to the operator of any telecommunications code system for the purposes of which any telecommunication apparatus is kept installed in, under, along or across that road (or bridge); and (b).").
§ 243 Page 119, line 45, leave out ("(a)") and insert ("(i)").
§ 244 Page 120, line 1, leave out ("(b)") and insert ("(ii)").
§ 245 Page 125, leave out lines 28 to 37.
§ 246 Page 133, line 28, leave out ("(2)") and insert ("(1)").
§ 248 Page 146, line 7, at end insert— ("(3A) In section 51(1), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "roads".").
§ 249 Page 148, line 4, leave out (", wherever it occurs,").
§ 250 Page 152, line 30, leave out sub-paragraph (10).
(b) in subsection (2), for the word "highway" in the first and second places where it occurs there shall be substituted the word "road", and in the third place where it occurs there shall be substituted the word "roads".").
§ 252 Page 162, line 43, leave out ("(6)") and insert ("(8)").
§ 253 Page 163, line 41, at beginning insert— ("—(1) The Electricity (Scotland) Act 1979 shall be amended in accordance with this paragraph. (2)").
§ 254 line 41, leave out ("of the Electricity (Scotland) Act 1979").
§ 255 line 45, at end insert— ("(3) In section 13(8) (exercise of powers relating to breaking up of streets, etc), for the word "streets" there shall be substituted the word "roads".").
§ 256 Page 167, leave out lines 17 to 40.
§ 257 Page 170, line 29, leave out from beginning to (" (interpretation)") in line 35 and insert— ("In section 75 of the Transport Act 1982").
§ 258 Page 170, line 37, at end insert— ("(4) In Schedule 2 (fixed penalty offences confined to Scotland) after the list of offences under the Road Traffic Act 1972 there shall be inserted the following words— "Offences under the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984 Section 63(1) Conveying insecure load on drawn vehicle. Section 63(2) Permitting child to drive drawn vehicle. Section 93(1) Dropping and failing to remove mud, etc. Section 122(3) Carrying projecting load. Section 122(5) Driving on footway, etc. Section 122(6) Parking motor vehicle on cycle track.").
§ 259 page 170, line 39, after ("1983") insert ("(interpretation)").
(b) in subsection (9), for the word " "street" " there shall be substituted the word " "road" ".
(k) in paragraph 21(10), for the word "street" there shall be substituted the word "road".
§ —(1) The Road Traffic Regulation Act 1948 shall be amended in accordance with this paragraph.
§ (3) In section 2(4) (preservation or improvement of amenity), for the words "authority (as defined in section l(2)(a) of this Act)" there shall be substituted the words "roads authority".
§ (4) In section 9, for subsection (2) there shall be substituted the following subsection— (2) The authority having power to make an experimental traffic order shall be the roads authority or (where the experimental traffic order is made with the consent of the Secretary of State in relation to a length of road for which he is the roads authority) the local roads authority which would, with his consent, have power to make a traffic regulation order under section 1(2) and (3) of this Act in relation to the length of road.".
(b) in subsection (3), for the words, "a highway" there shall be substituted the word "roads".
§ (8) In section 18(1) (one-way traffic on trunk roads), for the words "1 of the Trunk Roads Act 1946" there shall be substituted the words "5 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984".
(b) in subsection (5)(b), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "roads".
§ (14) In section 32(4)(a) (interpretation), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "roads".
§ (15) In section 34 (which is extended to Scotland by section 121 of this Act and which relates to the provision of access to premises through off-street parking places), in subsection (l)(a), for the word "highway", in both places where it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road".
§ ( 17) In section 38(3) (power to charge for parking place for public service vehicle), for the word "street" there shall be substituted the word "road".
§ (19) In section 53(1) (content of designation order), for the word "highways" there shall be substituted the word "roads".
§ (b) subsection (5) shall cease to have effect.
§ (21) In section 64(4)(c) (placing of traffic sign on or near road), in each of sub-paragraphs (i) and (ii), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road".
(b) in subsection (2), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the words "local roads".
§ (24) In section 67(1) (emergencies and temporary obstructions), for the word "highway", in both places where it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road".
§ (29) In section 77 (traffic signs: modifications as respects trunk roads), for the words "trunk road" there shall be substituted the words "road for which the Secretary of State is roads authority".
§ (b) in sub-section (2), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "roads"
§ (a) where the order referred to in subsection (1) above has been made as regards a road managed and maintained by the Secretary of State, may be placed on the road by him; and (b) where the order has been made as respects a road other than one so managed and maintained, may be placed on the road by the local roads authority.".
§ (37) In section 93(1) (powers of Secretary of State in relation to functions under section 92) for the words from "trunk" where it first occurs to "that point" there shall be substituted the words "road managed and maintained by him he may authorise or require the roads authority for any other road which at that point leads into or crosses the road so managed and maintained".
(ii) where they occur for the second time, there shall be substituted the words "the said Act of 1971".
(b) in subsection (7)(6), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the words "public road".
§ (43) In section 134(4) (provisions as to regulations), for the words "or section" there shall be substituted the words ", 132A or".
(ii) after the words "1980", where they first occur, there shall be inserted the words "or section 7 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984,"
(b) in paragraph 25, for the word "highway", where it occurs for the first and third times there shall in each case be substituted the word "road"; and where it occurs for the first and third times, there shall in each word "roads".").
§ 261 Schedule 9, page 172, line 20, at end insert— ("7. In relation to an order under section 3 of the Special Roads Act 1949 coming into force before the appointed day within the meaning of section 2 of the Telecommunications Act 1984, section 20 of the said Act of 1949 shall have effect, notwithstanding any repeal made by this Act, as it had effect immediately before that appointed day.").
("51 & 52 Vict. c. 12. The Electric Lighting Act 1888. In section 4(5), the words "the term 'street' shall include any square, court or alley, highway, lane, road, thoroughfare, or public passage or place whatever, and").
§ 263 page 176, line 53, column 3, at end insert ("In section 209(1), the words ", 200".").
§ 264 page 178, leave out lines 6 and 7.
("1984 c. 12. The Telecommunications Act 1984. In Schedule 2, in paragraph 1, in sub paragraph (1) the definitions of "maintainable highway" and "street", and sub-paragraph (5); and in paragraph 2(8)(a) the words "(which for this purpose shall be deemed to extend to Northern Ireland)".
In Schedule 4, paragraphs 9(4)(g), 17, 19, 26 and 51.
1984 c. 27. The Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984. In section 1(3), the word "trunk" where it occurs for the second time.
In section 34(1), the words "in England or Wales".
In section 142(1), in the definition of "highway authority", paragraph (b) and the word " and" immediately preceding that paragraph.
In Schedule 10, paragraphs 14 to 16.").
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 190 to 265 en bloc. If your Lordships desire, I can 256 make any information available on any, or all, of these amendments.
My Lords, there is another momentous matter to be raised. In the amendments to Schedule 8 the sort of rough change from feet to metres has now been made into the exact figure, which makes me wonder why in Amendments Nos. 229,232, and 239 four metres becomes 3.66, but in Amendment No. 231 four metres, for some reason, becomes 3.05 metres? Just so that I do not lie awake at night wondering why this is done, can the Lord Advocate explain it?
My Lords, I never embark upon a reply without being absolutely certain of the facts that I am endeavouring to give to your Lordships. May I simply say that I do not have the information immediately available? There is in fact a good reason, and if the noble Lord is content with the matter, I shall write to him about it.
My Lords, surely the Lord Advocate will not confine the information to the noble Lord, Lord Hughes. The rest of us are dying to know.
My Lords, I am reminded, which I had forgotten, that I ought to have the information available, and indeed it is here. It goes back a long way to the Railways Clauses Consolidation (Scotland) Act 1845, and in particular Section 41, with which of course the noble Lord will be familiar. I understand that that defines separate minimum arch dimensions of railway bridges over turnpike roads, public carriage roads, and private roads, and that the Bill amalgamates the turnpike and public carriage road provisions into a public road minimum clearance for railway bridges.
However, British Rail drew attention to the fact that the obsolete turnpike standards instead of the smaller public carriage road dimensions to which British Rail now operates had been used in Schedule 8 to the Bill. The result would have been that if allowed to stand without these amendments, which in some sense are of a technical nature, the amended Section 41 of the 1845 Act would increase British Rail's costs when rebuilding existing bridges, since they might have to be reconstructed with a larger arch for vehicle clearance, that being by the obsolete turnpike standards as opposed to the standards to which British Rail now operates. I apologise to your Lordships that I did not have that explanation immediately to hand when I stood up.
My Lords, surely that means we should have left well alone and not proceeded on this thing at all.

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