Source: http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=56876&start=30
Timestamp: 2019-04-24 04:16:46+00:00

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Best Delay for Mv in Fx Loop?
Re: Best Delay for Mv in Fx Loop?
The toneprint option really is nice on the Flashback.
I noticed in this thread that it was mentioned that the Flashback was not compatible with the Mark V. Any more details on that? Does anyone have issues with it? I am noticing that with the Flashback in the LOOP the wet sounds are very soft compared with being in front of the amp. Anyone else experienced this?
I have a TC Electronics G system AND a Nova system.
The G system sounds beyond belief. Deep Lush tones. In all respect's it is literally Pink Floyd in a box.
Whereas the Nova is considerably less in all departments.
I'm completely underwhelmed with it's Delay, Chorus and Overdrive. The compressor is fair and the reverb is so so.
I'll use it in a "riot jam" in front of my amp when effects aren't that important.
But on gig's where people are critically listening ... I use nothing less than my G system.
I have the V:25, so this may not apply to the 90 watt. I have a TC D-Two, TC G Major 2 and a Boss-DD-500. I thought my TC’s sounded fantastic in the loop, but when I plugged in the DD-500 I realized how much lower the output was when running my TC gear, even when bypassed. The DD-500 is super clean, and when bypassed I have my amps core sound as unaltered to my ear as it can get, in terms of tone and volume. I can get there on the TC units but I have to raise both input and output levels, which I don’t really like, but it does bring them to the level the Boss unit has out of the box.
I like all three units as delays, and the 2290 dynamic delay and dual delays are my favorite starting points. The reverse delay on the GM2 is pretty good too. I’ve only had the Boss for about a month. It’s very nice and I recommend it, especially if you already use midi to control your rig. If you just like a few knobs to tweak I think the TC flashback is nice.
The EH Memory Man did not work well in the loop of my Mk5:25. I got clipping which I assume was caused,by a line level signal into a pedal designed for insrument level. The Strymon Timeline I am using now sounds much better.
I was wondering if this is normal with any amp using overdrive. I have a Deluxe Memory Man, and i just bought and returned a Flashback to see if it would do the same thing and it did. When going through the effects loop if i pluck a note and mute the note i will get decent sounding repeats that will go on based on how i set the feedback. But if i pluck a note and hold it i will only get one repeat that sounds like a clipping sound, so if i want to play some lead with overdrive and with delay it sounds terrible. I just put a bid on a Timefactor to see if it does the same thing but maybe that's just the way it is with overdrive and delays? It does the same thing with my other amp also, so it's not just the Mark V.
What I can claim as far as Mesa products: TC-50, JP-2C, Roadster, and the RA100 are compatible with instrument level effects. The Mark V is the lone wolf in my arsenal that is among the sheep in terms of line level FX send. I have not gotten around to getting the Line Level shifter that has a dual isolation format to reduce the line level to instrument level for fx pedals and then restores back to line level. If the Mark series line up is driving the FX loop at the line level why not get a line level shifter, I believe Ebtech makes one. Especially if there is a delay or other effect that you feel is paramount in your signal chain and is part of your specific tone. My purpose for the Ebtech LLS-2 would be to slave into my other amps as the Mark V FX loop is too strong of a signal. At least you would be able to use your favorite effect where it belongs, in the loop. I have gone down that route which began in 2012 and since then have basically run the amp dry. Strymon is one brand that does work well in the Mark V as well as the other amps. I believe the buffers have an automatic shift for use with line level signals.
bandit2013 wrote: What I can claim as far as Mesa products: TC-50, JP-2C, Roadster, and the RA100 are compatible with instrument level effects. The Mark V is the lone wolf in my arsenal that is among the sheep in terms of line level FX send. I have not gotten around to getting the Line Level shifter that has a dual isolation format to reduce the line level to instrument level for fx pedals and then restores back to line level. If the Mark series line up is driving the FX loop at the line level why not get a line level shifter, I believe Ebtech makes one. Especially if there is a delay or other effect that you feel is paramount in your signal chain and is part of your specific tone. My purpose for the Ebtech LLS-2 would be to slave into my other amps as the Mark V FX loop is too strong of a signal. At least you would be able to use your favorite effect where it belongs, in the loop. I have gone down that route which began in 2012 and since then have basically run the amp dry. Strymon is one brand that does work well in the Mark V as well as the other amps. I believe the buffers have an automatic shift for use with line level signals.
Thanks very much for your response, but i don't understand most of what you said. I don't know what line level vs instrument level is or why Mesa would put one vs the other on an amp, or why i wouldn't be able to use very common delay pedals with my amp. Also why wouldn't Mesa put a switch or something on it for this.
If i was to get that line level shifter were would it go in the signal chain and how would it affect everything as i am running some stuff through the effects loop and some stuff through the front. Also, what would i notice if i hooked it up, how would the delay sound different?
The line level shifter is just that, It used two audio transformers to boost or reduce the signal level. The place you would use it is in the FX loop of the Mark V. The cable connected to the send (output) would connect to the +4dB input on CH1, the beginning of the FX pedal chain would be connected to the -10dBv of CH1, the last pedal in the fX chain would take its output and connect to the -10dBv of CH2 and the +4dB would connect to the return (input) on the Mark V. It is a simple device and will change the signal level from line (+4dB) down to instrument level (-10dBv) and your instrument level FX pedal (delay, reverb, chorus or what ever you have in the FX loop chain) should have a compatible signal level to prevent overdriving or clipping the input buffer of the pedal. Since the Mark V has a line level FX loop, the second channel will boost or step up the signal level from (-10dBV) back to line level (+4dB) for the return.
I would not use it anywhere else but the FX loop. Also this device does not require any power supply as it is just two audio grade transformers. I should get one and see how well it works with the Line6 DL4 as that one really compresses the signal and degrades the tone in the FX loop. I also have a rack mount delay I could not use with the Mark V as it was clipping the input and did not matter if the send level was reduced all the way.
Have you ever lowered the send level on the Mark V? Does that reduce the signal enough to be compatible with the pedals you mention? I’m going to assume you have...but just checking. Did you by chance measure the signal level range which the “send level” knob on the Mark V? I suppose I could do this...one would measure the voltage of a sine wave at minimum and maximum. Is the formula then every voltage doubling is 6 dB of gain?
I suppose a big drawback of having to lower the signal level of the EFX send on the Mark V is this lowers the overall max volume level of the amp. My Mark V has the EFX send level at about 10:30 o’clock, this seems to work OK with the TC Electronic Flashback X4. With the send level at 12:00 detente position the wet sound was much softer than the dry sound. By lowering the EFX send level on the Mark V the dry volume goes down but the wet does not, so the volume ratio is more balanced. If the EFX send is at 12:00, the tone of the amp is still great, no degradation..the issue is the wet to dry volume ratio.
bandit2013 wrote: The line level shifter is just that, It used two audio transformers to boost or reduce the signal level. The place you would use it is in the FX loop of the Mark V. The cable connected to the send (output) would connect to the +4dB input on CH1, the beginning of the FX pedal chain would be connected to the -10dBv of CH1, the last pedal in the fX chain would take its output and connect to the -10dBv of CH2 and the +4dB would connect to the return (input) on the Mark V. It is a simple device and will change the signal level from line (+4dB) down to instrument level (-10dBv) and your instrument level FX pedal (delay, reverb, chorus or what ever you have in the FX loop chain) should have a compatible signal level to prevent overdriving or clipping the input buffer of the pedal. Since the Mark V has a line level FX loop, the second channel will boost or step up the signal level from (-10dBV) back to line level (+4dB) for the return.
I am waiting for the Ebtech to show up tonight and for a Timefactor on Friday. The Timefactor has an instrument level and a line level switch. I'd like to be able to keep my DMM delay if i can, but it has never sounded right and i never new why until i read this thread. A tech from Ebtech also sent me a couple different ways to try to hook it up so we'll see tonight.
I don't know why but I've never tried the amp with the effect loop bypassed until this afternoon, what a difference it makes. I usually use effects but it sounds really raw and tight just plain with a TS 808 boosting it a little. Probably all my pedals going into the loop are not line level so I've probably been missing out on really good tone for a long time.
For those who own a DD3, does anyone notice a slight muddiness of the output when the DD3 is used in the fx loop ?
I have tried lowering the Send level. I could not eliminate the clipping on the rack mount delay that I had for many years. I had other rack mount systems that I could not use with the Mark V. All of my effects that I used to own prior to the Mark V were ideal with the Mark IV and I did not have any issues with that amp regarding FX loop. Most of the effects I did have were given away or thrown out since that gear was from 2000 or earlier. Bought a few pedals starting with the Line6 DL4 sounded okay even with the compression but was not really suitable for the Mark V. Tried the TC Flashback X3 and that one was about the same, compressed delay tone. Both work well with the other amps. Then came along a Strymon DIG, no issue there using it in the Mark V loop and also the other amps as well as the mixer board which has two FX loops. I believe that one does some sort of auto shifting on the input buffer or on the output as it can take up to +8dBu signal. Works just as good with the instrument level loops of the JP or TC-50, Roadster and RA100, including on the front end of the amp. So Strymon got me interested and now I have a few more of their products. Ola, Big Sky, Brigadier, OB.1. What also works in the Mark V loop is the Boss Terra Echo. Also have a Boss PH-3 phase shifter but have not tried that in the loop. I no longer use the line6 or TC product that I have at the moment. However I still need the Ebtech LLS so I can slave out to another amp that does not use line level loop (roadster). I think the LLS would improve the slave out function better using the FX loop with an isolated signal splitter (allows you to keep the power section of the Mark V and to send FX signal to another amp but if the signal level is too strong it will not sound ideal). I have a Lehle P-Split II that is awesome for bi-amping or slaving out to another amp as the isolated output can be set for different phase relationship, ground lift and cuts out the ground loop noise by isolation transformer. Works great on the front end of an amp to run two amps in parallel (no noise especially when one amp is in standby when you are turning on the amps). I tried using the Line6 DL4 to run two amps and that was noisy at best. I burned some circuits in it when I tried a solid state amp and tube amp together ( I was able to repair it after the damage though with a jumper wire to replace the vaporized copper traces). Never mix a tube amp and solid state amp by plugging in a parallel output into the input of each amp since the ground loop and associated voltage levels may not be compatible with each other. Something may go on you, also you may possibly have a more serious issue if you or your guitar become the short circuit to earth ground. Best to use a splitter that has an isolation transformer with a ground disconnect. I doubt there would be issue of concern for electric shock but there is that potential. Also it is noisy unless you can isolate one amp from the other. I am only providing reference to some product but I am not endorsing them. Just trying to be helpful and what worked for me.
So i tried several ways of hooking up the Ebtech line level shifter and all it did to my ears was raise or lower the output. I tried adjusting the fx send level on the amp and no difference in the delay sound. I have the Timefactor coming Friday so I'll see if it sounds different then my DMM. The DMM does sound good on the clean channel, and it also sounds good set as a slapback or reverb type for more gain, but once the time is increased with gain it sounds like it's clipping.
interesting..... I will have to see for myself what is up with that. I want the LLS and believed that device would cure the clip or overdriven issue with the Mark V due to higher signal output on the loop. Have one on order so when I get it I will chime in on what is up.
I also ordered two XLR to TRS cables and two of the IMP XLR to TS transformers so I can make use of the balanced cables to reduce noise levels. I want to see if the TRS will work in the Ebtech as it uses TRS jacks. With some of my gear for recording, the TRS jacks when used with TS plugs you generally get a reduced output due to the impedance difference. Perhaps that is the trick for the Ebtech LLS. At least the balanced cable would be better for noise immunity. Also I can use the cables with other stuff so no big deal or loss to me as I can use them for recording purposes.
Now if there is a signal level issue on the return, a booster may be needed at the end of the effects chain..... Not so simple anymore but have to try this as I would like to slave out though the FX loop on the Mark V to other amps. Bummer... thought this would be an inexpensive fix compared to dropping all your gear for more expensive pedals. Strymon is not low cost by any means. I do have a few of them and I feel they are worth the extra coin but that in mind, the Line6 DL4 was not inexpensive either. Same price for the TC flashback. Still both cost less than the Strymon stuff but not much less.
I believe that was one of the biggest disappointments I had with the Mark V, hard to find product to use in the FX loop that work. I will chime in when my order arrives and will detail what works and what does not. Sorry for my suggestion as I thought that was a fix, on paper it may be but in reality it may not.
The rundown on the Ebtech LLS2.
It does work but at a cost of signal level on the loop. I tried combinations of TRS and TS cables, XLR with the IMP transformer and TRS. Seems the best results using the Ebtech LLS2 was with standard TS guitar cables. The Line6 DL4 has surely seen better days and I believe the input buffer on the left or mono side is either degraded or damaged from improper signal levels when used with the Mark V. It has been a while since I tried to use it after it was repaired (circuit board burned out on the mono input side and I installed a bridge wire to replace the vaporized trace). I even tried the right side with the left input with a dummy plug. Perhaps there is a reason I have not used it for some time. I will have to try it with the TC-Flashback X3 to see if I get better results. With the pedal in bypass mode and turning on and off the FX loop there is a slight signal level change but it is enough to be noticed. The only benefit was I could use the Line6 DL4 without the muddy overdriven and compressed tone when plugging it in direct on the FX loop send/receive. The odd thing, I tried the Mesa 5BEQ pedal in the loop in hoped to use it as a signal booster as it has a input and output gain adjustment. In front of the delay and when both pedals were active, with a higher output signal level on the EQ raised the delay basically turned off and sounded like it was hard bypassed. The Line6 DL4 also had a signal loss when turned. Not sure what to think at the moment. Time to hook up a scope and see what is going on with signal levels. Hopefully the signal generator I borrowed will suffice. Will have to look at the signal level on the speaker as well as I am curious to see what the current waveform looks like as well as the voltage waveform with the 12AT7 in V4 compared to the 12AX7 in V4. I believe the send/return on the Mark V is unbalanced.

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