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---
layout: transcript
interviewee: shony alex braun
rg_number: rg-50.030.0036
pdf_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findingaids/rg-50.030.0036_trs_en.pdf
ushmm_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn504540
gender: m
birth_date: 1930-07-14
birth_year: 1930.0
place_of_birth: transylvania
country: romania
experience_group: survivor
ghetto(s)_encyclopedia: none
ghetto: none
camp(s)_encyclopedia: none
camp: auschwitz, natzweiler (struthof), dachau
non_ss_camp: none
region: none
needs_research: none
data_entry: gg
accession: 1990.419.1
revisit: checked
tags: transcripts
---
---
layout: transcript
interviewee: shony alex braun
rg_number: rg-50.030.0036
pdf_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findingaids/rg-50.030.0036_trs_en.pdf
ushmm_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn504540
gender: m
birth_date: 1930-07-14
birth_year: 1930.0
place_of_birth: transylvania
country: romania
experience_group: survivor
ghetto(s)_encyclopedia: none
ghetto: none
camp(s)_encyclopedia: none
camp: auschwitz, natzweiler (struthof), dachau
non_ss_camp: none
region: none
needs_research: none
data_entry: gg
accession: 1990.419.1
revisit: checked
tags: transcripts
---
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<body><dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="1">SHONY ALEX BRAUN June 28, 1990</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3">Q: Tell me your full name please?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="5">A: My name is Shony Alex Braun.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="7">Q: Where and when were you born?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="9">A: I was born in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Transylvania</span>--at the time was governed by <span class="COUNTRY">Romania</span> and later [1940] switched to <span class="COUNTRY">Hungary</span>--in 1930, July 14th.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="11">Q: Shony, tell me a little bit about family and your childhood, will you?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="13">A: I was born into an orthodox family.</sentence><sentence id="14">And we were very family- minded, and, of course, very religious.</sentence><sentence id="15">My parents, and... uh ...he was a jeweler, actually.</sentence><sentence id="16">And...uh...we...we were a very close knit family.</sentence><sentence id="17">And a very interesting thing happened with me, if I may share with you.</sentence><sentence id="18">At age four, I got lost in a <span class="ENV_FEATURES">forest</span>.</sentence><sentence id="19">The governess took me out; and she said she sat down and fell asleep, and I walked away.</sentence><sentence id="20">And I was found by the Gypsies.</sentence><sentence id="21">There were some Gypsies.</sentence><sentence id="22">They were roaming the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">forest</span>.</sentence><sentence id="23">And maybe they have come from...God knows which <span class="NPIP">part of</span> the <span class="COUNTRY">country</span>.</sentence><sentence id="24">However, they found me and they kept me for about three days.</sentence><sentence id="25">And this is where I first time heard the violin.</sentence><sentence id="26">And seems like that was a destiny, because would it not be for the violin--as you will hear later of our conversation--I would not be able to speak to you today.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="41">Q: Will you...(cough)... Tell me about your...your family.</sentence><sentence id="42">Um, did you have brothers and sisters?</sentence><sentence id="43">What did you do during the day?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="47">A: Yes.</sentence><sentence id="48">I was the fourth of six children.</sentence><sentence id="49">And because of the fact that the violin, I was exposed that early... Of course, these Gypsies returned me to my family after they found out whom I belonged to.</sentence><sentence id="50">And...uh...we were...I was actually three.</sentence><sentence id="51">It's very strange--probably unbelievable--but in three...at three years old I was when I started to learn the Hebrew alphabet.</sentence><sentence id="52">When I was five, I could read it very well.</sentence><sentence id="53">And the everyday's life was actually studying and...uh...lot of...lot of praying at the time, as usual.</sentence><sentence id="54">And, of course, one other <span class="NPIP">thing</span>.</sentence><sentence id="55">Uh...The <span class="REGION">area</span> where we lived in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Transylvania</span>, the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> called I.G. Duca--L.G. Duca, that was given after a assassinated Romanian president. !</sentence><sentence id="56">And...uh...they were not very friendly to Jews.</sentence><sentence id="57">And at the time it was not that severe as it came later on.</sentence><sentence id="58">So, we were restricted.</sentence><sentence id="59">However, we went to <span class="BUILDING">school</span>.</sentence><sentence id="60">And ...uh...every one of my brothers and sisters--we were two sisters and four brothers.</sentence><sentence id="61">And...uh...we were allowed to...to go to <span class="BUILDING">school</span> and learn like everybody else.</sentence><sentence id="62">However, we would be hearing here and there that we are a Jew, or occasionally that we were "Christ-killers."</sentence><sentence id="63">And that restricted us.</sentence><sentence id="64">Of course, certain <span class="NPIP">places</span> " The original name of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> was <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Szekely-Keresztur</span> (Hung), or <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Criturul-Secuiesc</span> (Rom).</sentence><sentence id="65">The name was changed sometime in the 1930s, in honor of the slain Romanian leader Ion G. Duca. (</sentence><sentence id="66">Information from telephone conversation with Shony Alex Braun, 25 Jul 1991).</sentence><sentence id="67">we could not join.</sentence><sentence id="68">Like we children would have loved to be a part of this club or that club where other children were, but we were not allowed to.</sentence><sentence id="69">And this... this is how our everyday lifes went.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="94">Q: When did you start to learn the violin?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="96">A: Uh, about a year later.</sentence><sentence id="97">As...as I mentioned, I was four when I got exposed by the Gypsies.</sentence><sentence id="98">And these were very nice people, by the way.</sentence><sentence id="99">Uh, a year later, my parents found a small violin.</sentence><sentence id="100">Due to the fact that there wasn't a day going by that I would not be begging my parents, "I want this!</sentence><sentence id="101">I want this!"</sentence><sentence id="102">I couldn't even say "hegedii"--that's Hungarian name for the violin.</sentence><sentence id="103">So finally, they gave in.</sentence><sentence id="104">And exactly that, to be exact July 14, which was my birthday, they...uh, at age five, they finally presented me with a violin.</sentence><sentence id="105">And I was not allowed to hold, actually, to...uh play with that; only and strictly with a teacher.</sentence><sentence id="106">Because my father, I'm sure that he knew, and so did my mother, that if I had just gotten on and I would have played and maybe got frustrated trying alone to get a tune here and there what I heard from the Gypsies, from bird imitations and God knows what else.</sentence><sentence id="107">So I would have been just dropping it.</sentence><sentence id="108">But no, it was with a teacher from the beginning on.</sentence><sentence id="109">And would you believe that not once I had to be told to practice.</sentence><sentence id="110">In fact, just the opposite happened.</sentence><sentence id="111">My mother, for instance, would tell my father, "Just tell him to go out and play <span class="NPIP">outside</span>, and go on the sun.</sentence><sentence id="112">Look how pale he is!</sentence><sentence id="113">He's...he's practicing too much.</sentence><sentence id="114">And he's not going with some of the other children out."</sentence><sentence id="115">You know.</sentence><sentence id="116">And so this is really strange, because most children has to be told...have to be told, "Practice!"</sentence><sentence id="117">But not me.</sentence><sentence id="118">I loved it from the start.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="142">Q: Tell us where that took you, as...as a young child.</sentence><sentence id="143">What did you end up doing?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="146">A: When...uh... I really honestly have to tell you this.</sentence><sentence id="147">This is only to share with you.</sentence><sentence id="148">I'm not trying to impress anyone.</sentence><sentence id="149">But...uh...I progressed rapidly.</sentence><sentence id="150">Was due to the fact probably that I loved it so much; and also, of course, that I was born with a good musical ear.</sentence><sentence id="151">And...uh...by the time I was 11, I enrolled to a nearby <span class="BUILDING">conservatory</span>, nearby our <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>, maybe...uh ...60 kilometers--which was probably less than 30 miles away."</sentence><sentence id="152">And I was one of the very few student that was admitted.</sentence><sentence id="153">Now at that time really to be admitted in that <span class="BUILDING">school</span> and to that specific teacher, you really had to be...uh...very tops.</sentence><sentence id="154">Because Jews were only admitted a certain percentage; and then you had to be playing or knowing or...or being twice or three times as good as your other friends who were not Jewish, you know?</sentence><sentence id="155">And...uh...it happened that I got a scholarship with this man.</sentence><sentence id="156">And with age...up to age 13, where I graduated the <span class="BUILDING">conservatory</span>.</sentence><sentence id="157">And then I got another scholarship at that point... If | may mention--at that point, we were already instead of being <span class="COUNTRY">Romania</span>... Of course, in 1940 when I was 10 years old, just to back up a little, then a...a major change occurred when unfortunately Hitler invaded or came into <span class="COUNTRY">Hungary</span> and...uh...actually came to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Transylvania</span>, and then forced the Romanian to give a part of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Transylvania</span> back to <span class="COUNTRY">Hungary</span>.</sentence><sentence id="158">The Hungarians claimed they > This was in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Tirgu-MureO</span> (also: <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Targu-MureO</span>).</sentence><sentence id="159">The same <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> is also known by the Hungarian name of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Maros-Vasarhely</span>. (</sentence><sentence id="160">Information from telephone conversation with Shony Alex Braun, 25 Jul 1991).</sentence><sentence id="161">were always theirs; and the Romanian, of course, argued that it was not so.</sentence><sentence id="162">And so now we, instead of being Romanian, we became Hungarian citizens.</sentence><sentence id="163">But then the problem was more more severe for the Jews.</sentence><sentence id="164">Slowly, we were thrown out of <span class="BUILDING">schools</span>.</sentence><sentence id="165">I was an exceptional...uh...person as far as the Hungarians concerned, with...with their law; because while I was in that--it was not a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>, a small <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>--I would be playing for the...uh... police, giving a concert as a youngster.</sentence><sentence id="166">Or for the fireman's ball; they would feature me before anything, with a solo or so.</sentence><sentence id="167">So because I did so many charitable things in that <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span>... Like the poor people--at Christmas time, they would be asking an Orthodox Jew... But still, it was no difference, you know, as far as... When you can do something good, then you do it.</sentence><sentence id="168">And, uh...so we...I was actually allowed because of that, it really came...uh, to my...to my rescue as far as not being thrown out of the <span class="BUILDING">school</span> immediately.</sentence><sentence id="169">So there were very few percentage of the Jews...uh, Jewish children that they were allowed to...be made exception.</sentence><sentence id="170">And I was one of them they made an exception to the rule.</sentence><sentence id="171">So I was allowed to continue, up "til one dreadful morning in May 1944.</sentence><sentence id="172">That's where the Hungarian gendarme--small town police-- was banging on the <span class="DLF">door</span> in our <span class="BUILDING">home</span>...at our <span class="BUILDING">home</span>, and said, "We give you one hour to gather some belongings.</sentence><sentence id="173">For instance, pots and pans and the clothes on your back and some blankets.</sentence><sentence id="174">One hour."</sentence><sentence id="175">And they herded us into an <span class="BUILDING">apartment complex</span> in the <span class="DLF">back yard</span> of.</sentence><sentence id="176">And they was incredible.</sentence><sentence id="177">You...you wondering what's going on.</sentence><sentence id="178">And for us children, we couldn't...we couldn't comprehend.</sentence><sentence id="179">Why...why they doing that?</sentence><sentence id="180">In fact, before this came to pass, uh...I like to mention that laws came.</sentence><sentence id="181">For instance, Jews were not allowed to go out without yellow star.</sentence><sentence id="182">And that brought even more antisemitism by the...some adults and the mostly, of course, younger children or teenagers.</sentence><sentence id="183">They would be spitting at us.</sentence><sentence id="184">They would be throwing stones at us.</sentence><sentence id="185">Sometimes I would be comered by going from one <span class="NPIP">place</span> to the other in...or I would be on the <span class="DLF">street</span> and beaten up.</sentence><sentence id="186">And sometimes...uh, they would be torn ...uh, the...the... What do you call it?</sentence><sentence id="187">The coat off my back; and just left there, you know, practically almost with nothing on me.</sentence><sentence id="188">To which...to shame me, because I was a Jew.</sentence><sentence id="189">And we would be called "Christ-killers."</sentence><sentence id="190">It was...it was impossible to comprehend that the same person who "yesterday" was playing with me--gentiles--today he would be beating me up and calling me "Christ-killer."</sentence><sentence id="191">So that day...</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="240">Q: What... Tell me a little more about those years.</sentence><sentence id="241">You were very young.</sentence><sentence id="242">Uh, what...what...what else was your family doing during these years of occupation?</sentence><sentence id="243">What was life like in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">ghetto</span> for them?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="248">A: We...we actually...uh...started, as I have mentioned, in 1940 until 1944.</sentence><sentence id="249">Uh, periodically, it was very, very difficult.</sentence><sentence id="250">For instance, my father--who was an Orthodox Jew--naturally wouldn't ever be open, or the <span class="BUILDING">store</span>, on Saturday.</sentence><sentence id="251">They forced us to open.</sentence><sentence id="252">That was only to...uh...to make you do something which is against your conviction, against your religious beliefs.</sentence><sentence id="253">And they were--the gendarme, the so-called police who I mentioned--would be there, make sure that he opened every Saturday.</sentence><sentence id="254">So that...and he would be sitting there in the <span class="BUILDING">store</span>.</sentence><sentence id="255">And we...we would be...uh...restricted from many things.</sentence><sentence id="256">Jews were not allowed, of course, later on, to be on the <span class="DLF">street</span> from a certain time on.</sentence><sentence id="257">If you caught on the <span class="DLF">street</span> from...let's say from 6:00 on, you would be imprison and beaten up by the police.</sentence><sentence id="258">Not only...of course, it was very dangerous to...to walk on the...on the <span class="DLF">street</span> at that hour; because not only that the police would be getting at you, but the people that they lived there.</sentence><sentence id="259">I must tell you honestly, not every one of them were anti-Semites.</sentence><sentence id="260">For instance, there was a...must, for the sake of truth, must mention it.</sentence><sentence id="261">Was very strange though.</sentence><sentence id="262">Was...uh, a friend of my father, a German who was bank director.</sentence><sentence id="263">And he would be giving my father helpful hints.</sentence><sentence id="264">Uh, for instance, like he foresee what's going to happen.</sentence><sentence id="265">He foresee it.</sentence><sentence id="266">Because he had informations, because he was a German.</sentence><sentence id="267">But instead of keeping quiet, he would come to my father and would say, for instance, "Listen, you having minor children.</sentence><sentence id="268">Why don't you falsify their birth certificate?Make them older.</sentence><sentence id="269">Just in case if something happens, then...uh...they are old enough to work.</sentence><sentence id="270">Rather than something will happen to them."</sentence><sentence id="271">And my father knew quite a bit in advance, but he would never tell us or not even to my mother.</sentence><sentence id="272">So we would not make them...not scare them, you know, or us.</sentence><sentence id="273">My parents were fantastic, I tell you.</sentence><sentence id="274">My father was just a genius in many, many different... Even in medicine, which is actually what he studied to begin with.</sentence><sentence id="275">But then war, speaking of the other war, came; and he had to do something different.</sentence><sentence id="276">So he became a jeweler.</sentence><sentence id="277">It's a wonderful thing to be.</sentence><sentence id="278">So this was...uh, actually the life during the occupation, as far as the Hungarians came.</sentence><sentence id="279">Now from...at that time, if I may continue, from that time on, when we were herded into that <span class="BUILDING">apartment complex</span> and were about 200 or more Jews gathered from all kind of a directions--not only from thats...uh, <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>, but from neighboring <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">towns</span>.</sentence><sentence id="280">We were there.</sentence><sentence id="281">We were <span class="NPIP">outside</span>.</sentence><sentence id="282">We had our absolutely no...nothing to lay on.</sentence><sentence id="283">For instance, we...we were in the <span class="DLF">back yard</span> and on the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">grass</span>, and it was still wet.</sentence><sentence id="284">And sometimes it complicated things when...when was raining.</sentence><sentence id="285">We were absolutely out in the <span class="DLF">open</span>.</sentence><sentence id="286">Kept there, and soaking wet, with very little to eat.</sentence><sentence id="287">What we brought, gathered in that one hour which I mentioned when the police banged on our <span class="DLF">door</span>.</sentence><sentence id="288">Everything we were stripped of.</sentence><sentence id="289">The only thing, as I mentioned, we were allowed to be taken the clothes which we had on, a blanket and some pots and pans.</sentence><sentence id="290">Now from that <span class="NPIP">place</span> about three or four days later, when enough Jews were gathered, we were put on horse-drawn <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">carts</span> and we were taken into a <span class="BUILDING">brick factory</span> nearby.</sentence><sentence id="291">And they were thousands of Jews gathered, their families; and the...the condition was incredible.</sentence><sentence id="292">For instance, now they...they had...the first time in my life I have seen SS guards and officers in that <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>.</sentence><sentence id="293">In fact, the sad thing about it is that's was the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> where I went and studied in <span class="BUILDING">conservatory</span>, when it was so wonderful that I would be allowed to be one of those Jews and having a scholarship.</sentence><sentence id="294">Now the very same <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>, I am imprisoned and encaptured--captured, I mean--in that <span class="BUILDING">brick factory</span>.</sentence><sentence id="295">This also when it rained there was nothing, absolutely nothing, to cover us.</sentence><sentence id="296">Not...not very long after--we were there about a week, I would say maybe roughly speaking--and some other terrible thing happened.</sentence><sentence id="297">My two older brothers were drafted by the Hungarian Army as what they called "forced laborer."</sentence><sentence id="298">And it came the news that they were sent in the front.</sentence><sentence id="299">You know, this is what they did.</sentence><sentence id="300">The...the SS did the same thing, as well as the Hungarians.</sentence><sentence id="301">They sent the Jewish forced laborer... they, they wore armband and the star, but they went ahead of the...of the soldiers, of the Hungarian or German soldiers, and so that if they were mined ahead of them.</sentence><sentence id="302">So wherever the <span class="REGION">territory</span> was mined, they would be stepping on it, would be blown up-- (cough) excuse me--and not the...not the Army.</sentence><sentence id="303">And word came.</sentence><sentence id="304">And you imagine now this.</sentence><sentence id="305">I was a 13 year old, not quite 14, at that time.</sentence><sentence id="306">And somehow I intercepted that letter which came to the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">ghetto</span> that my two brothers--the older brothers, Adolph and Emil--were both perished.</sentence><sentence id="307">They were both blown to pieces by one of these <span class="DLF">mines</span>...one of these <span class="DLF">mines</span>, that were under...you know, undermined.</sentence><sentence id="308">And I kept that terrible secret "til liberation because I would never tell my father nor my mother.</sentence><sentence id="309">Nor would I tell my sister, was still there.</sentence><sentence id="310">Uh, my older sister was...uh...with us at the time.</sentence><sentence id="311">Was only the two...when the family was taken from <span class="BUILDING">home</span>, my old...two older brothers were already forced laborer...taken as forced laborer.</sentence><sentence id="312">And that terrible knowledge that I couldn't share with anyone.</sentence><sentence id="313">And I begged the person who brought the letter, actually, the notification, not to say a word to anyone.</sentence><sentence id="314">And I don't know how did he...he got...uh...uh, that knowledge.</sentence><sentence id="315">I don't know.</sentence><sentence id="316">It came...uh...through the mail, it came from the Red Cross, or whatever it was the case.</sentence><sentence id="317">Because somebody else from his family was blown up; and so were the Braun brothers, my two brothers.</sentence><sentence id="318">And I would not tell.</sentence><sentence id="319">But to keep that awful things within me, it was terrible.</sentence><sentence id="320">So being in that...in that <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">ghetto</span>, we had very little to eat.</sentence><sentence id="321">Very, very little.</sentence><sentence id="322">And something happened.</sentence><sentence id="323">The SS would be building <span class="NPIP">outside</span> in the open, within that the frame of the <span class="BUILDING">brick factory</span>, latrinas.</sentence><sentence id="324">And would...I as, well...you know, when..when you privacy when you...when you have to...uh, when...when nature calls you.</sentence><sentence id="325">And...uh, I would have never ever even dreamed to do anything in presence of...of somebody who's not only is a stranger, not even friends.</sentence><sentence id="326">In fact, even our parents, let's say, we would be not exposing ourselves openly.</sentence><sentence id="327">That's somehow strange, but that's the way it was.</sentence><sentence id="328">It...it took 5, 10...maybe 5 to 10 days being in that.</sentence><sentence id="329">It's very, very unbelievable; but it's true.</sentence><sentence id="330">I couldn't possibly ...uh, do what...what nature calls.</sentence><sentence id="331">And that...that caused a terrible problem, because we were in the open.</sentence><sentence id="332">And I noticed when women and men, they...right in the open.</sentence><sentence id="333">And then the SS would come and take pictures of us; and they would be laughing and...and enjoying that terrible shame that we had, to do our duties in the open and during the day.</sentence><sentence id="334">At least, if it was nights or darkness...you know?</sentence><sentence id="335">But it...it just terrible.</sentence><sentence id="336">Now, one day they gathered us again and took us out to the <span class="BUILDING">train station</span>, and they said we have to go.</sentence><sentence id="337">I noticed the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> with <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">cattle cars</span>.</sentence><sentence id="338">Now, there were also no facilities where one can go to the <span class="INT_SPACE">bathroom</span>, if that's the way you want to call it, you know.</sentence><sentence id="339">And what...strange thing happened that we...some of us, refused to board the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>.</sentence><sentence id="340">And the SS said, "We're going to kill you if you're not going to board the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>."</sentence><sentence id="341">So some people threw themselves down to the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">ground</span>.</sentence><sentence id="342">And the SS went and at random took some children and some women, some older people; and they lined up and just shot them at random.</sentence><sentence id="343">Just shot them dead.</sentence><sentence id="344">That, of course, scared the rest of us.</sentence><sentence id="345">So what we did, in order... For them, life was absolutely nothing.</sentence><sentence id="346">Like you stepping on an <span class="ENV_FEATURES">ant</span>, even less.</sentence><sentence id="347">But--(coughing) excuse me--they want to...want to show to the rest of us terror.</sentence><sentence id="348">Always that SS terror, you know; with that fear and terror that we would be mindlessly following what they ordered us to do.</sentence><sentence id="349">And we...we boarded the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>.</sentence><sentence id="350">And I can tell you, the worst thing yet to come, in that specific <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">cattle car</span> was no sanitation facilities.</sentence><sentence id="351">Was no <span class="DLF">air</span>, no water; and a very, very rare occasion the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> would be stopping and then they would allow some people to get off the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>.</sentence><sentence id="352">Some.</sentence><sentence id="353">And mostly... uh, older people, maybe sometimes they allowed them.</sentence><sentence id="354">What happened, if they didn't come back soon enough, they would just shoot them like dogs.</sentence><sentence id="355">And now, at the next <span class="NPIP">stop</span> when it was, then people were afraid to get off.</sentence><sentence id="356">They would say, "Whoever wants to get out, you can get off."</sentence><sentence id="357">Yah, but when you get off, you knew that you gonna be shot if you're not gonna be back. "</sentence><sentence id="358">Los!Los!"</sentence><sentence id="359">You were not fast enough, they just shoot you and left you right there.</sentence><sentence id="360">When we arrived a few days later... Now in the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">cattle cars</span>, there were a lot of older people and children.</sentence><sentence id="361">They couldn't stand the heat.</sentence><sentence id="362">They couldn't stand the...the terrible scent, or... Or what do you call it?</sentence><sentence id="363">That's the terrible smell.</sentence><sentence id="364">And we have to do our duties right in there.</sentence><sentence id="365">So, many of them died right in the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">car</span> as we went.</sentence><sentence id="366">We...we didn't know then, but we were going destination <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Auschwitz</span>.</sentence><sentence id="367">When we arrived to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Auschwitz</span>, we were not allowed out of the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">car</span>...off the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> yet.</sentence><sentence id="368">They were holding us for quite some time.</sentence><sentence id="369">Hours and hours, and during the night and during the day.</sentence><sentence id="370">When finally the...the <span class="DLF">car door</span>...the <span class="DLF">car door</span> opened, we were ordered out.</sentence><sentence id="371">As soon as we stepped out, head prisoners--called kapos--SS guards, rushed toward us.</sentence><sentence id="372">Started kicking, hitting, punching and using the whips anyone they could reach.</sentence><sentence id="373">They ordered us to get in <span class="DLF">line</span>.</sentence><sentence id="374">While we...we were doing that, because we were not fast enough, the kicking and the punching continued, and the whipping.</sentence><sentence id="375">When we lined up, I noticed that an SS officer approached us.</sentence><sentence id="376">It was the infamous Dr. Josef Mengele.</sentence><sentence id="377">And ...uh, that was the man who decide our fate.</sentence><sentence id="378">Instant death in a <span class="INT_SPACE">gas chamber</span>, or lingering life of torture and slavery.</sentence><sentence id="379">And what was interesting, I noticed--specifically for me was noticeable-- because actually he was holding a slender stick in his hand and which was a conductor's baton.</sentence><sentence id="380">And we were ordered to file by him; and as we would be passing him or filing by him, he would be motion to the left or to the right.</sentence><sentence id="381">My mother and my younger sister were motioned to the left.</sentence><sentence id="382">My older sister... By the way, my younger sister was 9 years old.</sentence><sentence id="383">She was made...she had a certificate falsified, trumped up to be 12.</sentence><sentence id="384">But Mengele just looked at her and my mother, and just motioned them on one <span class="NPIP">side</span>.</sentence><sentence id="385">Now, my older sister--who was 18-- she was motioned to the other <span class="NPIP">side</span>.</sentence><sentence id="386">My father and my older brother--older than P_-they were also motioned to the <span class="NPIP">side</span> where my sister--whose name was Violet, "Ibolya" in Hungarian-- they were motioned to that <span class="NPIP">side</span>.</sentence><sentence id="387">When my turn came, to...to my...to my great surprise, Mengele motioned me to stop, gestured me to stop.</sentence><sentence id="388">And says--sweetly, like a father--says, "How old are...how old are you, little boy?"</sentence><sentence id="389">And I said, "I am 16!"</sentence><sentence id="390">And he looked at me suspiciously, and then he motioned me to the same <span class="NPIP">side</span> where my father and older brother and older sister was.</sentence><sentence id="391">Now the reason, and that was where that--remember I mentioned earlier that...that...uh, bank director, the German who coached my father.</sentence><sentence id="392">And, in fact, I said, "I am 16, and I can prove it too."</sentence><sentence id="393">And I had it in my...in my jacket there; but...but he just looked at me like with a very strange smile.</sentence><sentence id="394">Probably what it said, he knew I was... was no 16, because I didn't look even...even 13, or almost 14, by the way.</sentence><sentence id="395">You know, but he probably said to himself--this is only my guessing--that, "You regret the fact that you lied to me.</sentence><sentence id="396">I let you live, but you regret it."</sentence><sentence id="397">You know?</sentence><sentence id="398">However, I was safe for the time being.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="552">Q: Stop here.</sentence><sentence id="553">We need to change tapes, please.</sentence><sentence id="554">Very quickly.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="558">> He is referring here to his brother Zoltan, who was actually 11 months his junior, but who appeared older.</sentence><sentence id="559">During the war, Zoltan's age was also faked on written records so that he became "older" than Shony. (</sentence><sentence id="560">Information from telephone conversation with Shony Braun, 25 Jul 1991).</sentence><sentence id="561">TAPE #2</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="567">Q: Okay.</sentence><sentence id="568">Let's go on.</sentence><sentence id="569">Mengele... Just repeat it after me.</sentence><sentence id="570">Mengele had motioned you to the right, and then what?</sentence><sentence id="571">Where did you go?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="577">A: When uh Mengele motioned to me to the right, of course, I went immediately into the group where my father and my older brother were.</sentence><sentence id="578">Because then they would be separating men and women.</sentence><sentence id="579">And we were taken to a <span class="BUILDING">building</span> where we were stripped from everything now, even what we had on our back.</sentence><sentence id="580">Every... everything we had to leave.</sentence><sentence id="581">And we were shaven, and everywhere where you can imagine.</sentence><sentence id="582">And then later on, we were issued these prisoners"...uh...uniform, and assigned to a <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span>.</sentence><sentence id="583">A few days later, while we were... Every single day we would be counted.</sentence><sentence id="584">Counted, so God forbid if somebody would not escape, you know.</sentence><sentence id="585">And, of course, we had very little to eat.</sentence><sentence id="586">We had some kind of a very questionable jelly kind of a thick substance in a bow]; and each...only one sip we were allowed to take.</sentence><sentence id="587">And that bowl would be passed over the <span class="DLF">line</span> of five; and each...each group, you know, in each <span class="DLF">line</span> for five.</sentence><sentence id="588">And then behind the five.</sentence><sentence id="589">So you had to pass it over to the other person.</sentence><sentence id="590">One swallow of it.</sentence><sentence id="591">If not, you were...you were beaten.</sentence><sentence id="592">And they would be head prisoners-- called kapos--who would be watching you, as well as the SS guards.</sentence><sentence id="593">Now, you know, you couldn't possibly sip yourself full of anything, because one sip; and if you were lucky, then it might got back to you to have another sip.</sentence><sentence id="594">So we were assigned to a <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span>.</sentence><sentence id="595">One night, as I was standing in <span class="DLF">line</span> to be counted, a kapo came.</sentence><sentence id="596">The head prisoners--and let's refer from now on as...as kapo.</sentence><sentence id="597">Came to our <span class="DLF">line</span> where I was standing, and picked prisoners at random for what they called it "Sonderkommando"--a special commando.</sentence><sentence id="598">And that meant now separation; because we somehow managed to stay, my father and my brother and myself, stay in one <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span> together.</sentence><sentence id="599">At least we were together.</sentence><sentence id="600">And...uh, now that meant separation.</sentence><sentence id="601">And my job--our job, for the Sonderkommando--was to go around the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span> and pick up dead or nearly dead bodies, put them on a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">cart</span> and cart them or push them up to the <span class="BUILDING">crematoria</span> where another group of people, Sonderkommandos, would take over and they would shove them in...to the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">oven</span>.</sentence><sentence id="602">Some of these people were far from being dead.</sentence><sentence id="603">They were just helpless, very ill or dehydrated of... or...or from hunger.</sentence><sentence id="604">They just didn't have any more... uh, power even to stand.</sentence><sentence id="605">So they fell.</sentence><sentence id="606">Now, they were left there; and now we were sent to pick them up, as I mentioned, put them on a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">cart</span> and push them in a <span class="BUILDING">crematorium</span>.</sentence><sentence id="607">On one occasion, I went to the kapo and I said, "This man is not dead!"</sentence><sentence id="608">I get a...such a terrible slap in a face that I made a somersault.</sentence><sentence id="609">I was a little boy, anyway.</sentence><sentence id="610">And he says, "You were not supposed to think or say anything!</sentence><sentence id="611">Your job is to pick them up and put them on a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">cart</span> and shove them up to the <span class="BUILDING">crematorium</span>, just as you were told."</sentence><sentence id="612">Now from that time on, there was nothing I could do.</sentence><sentence id="613">Just pick them up, as he said, with four or six of us, in fact, many cases...occasions.</sentence><sentence id="614">Believe it or not, I have a picture.</sentence><sentence id="615">I couldn't find it, momentarily.</sentence><sentence id="616">I...would have...ifI find it, I give it to you; because I know that the <span class="BUILDING">Holocaust Museum</span> would love it.</sentence><sentence id="617">But it was...it's not the one that I worked.</sentence><sentence id="618">However, an eyewitness who went... I just venture away from the subject.</sentence><sentence id="619">You may find it interesting.</sentence><sentence id="620">An eyewitness went after the war, or he was one of the liberator.</sentence><sentence id="621">He found...he took pictures of one of these <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">carts</span>.</sentence><sentence id="622">And he...it was in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Auschwitz</span>.</sentence><sentence id="623">And he took it; and when...when I met him not long ago--only four, five years ago, I think it was.</sentence><sentence id="624">Either in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Annapolis</span>, or <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Austin</span>, <span class="REGION">Texas</span>.</sentence><sentence id="625">One or the other.</sentence><sentence id="626">Where I performed.</sentence><sentence id="627">He presented it to me, when I told him the story that I was... unfortunately, this what I had to do.</sentence><sentence id="628">So back to the story.</sentence><sentence id="629">I...1 would be working about six days in that Sonderkommando.</sentence><sentence id="630">You cannot imagine.</sentence><sentence id="631">I tell you, the most awful things.</sentence><sentence id="632">Some of these people, they were left for days.</sentence><sentence id="633">Not only the smell, there were flies on it.</sentence><sentence id="634">And they...they...the flesh was starting to rotten.</sentence><sentence id="635">It's heat, you know.</sentence><sentence id="636">And...uh...we're talking about end of May, and...uh...beginning of June [1944].</sentence><sentence id="637">And they...they were put some...some other Sonderkommando went and would spray some kind of a material on it, so as to disinfect them.</sentence><sentence id="638">But that was (laughing) ...you know, made it look even worse.</sentence><sentence id="639">So as I mentioned, about six or seven days I was working.</sentence><sentence id="640">Now in that Sonderkommando was a man who would be about the same years old as my father was--about 41, 42.</sentence><sentence id="641">And he had a son who was maybe about a year or two older than I. And word came to this Kommando--that...that was the father, who also got torn away from his son.</sentence><sentence id="642">And word came that the <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span> which my father and brother were, next day going to be transferred to <span class="COUNTRY">France</span>.</sentence><sentence id="643">And he--the wise and ingenious plan.</sentence><sentence id="644">He says, "In the evening, when we prisoners are rushed, really beaten to group, "Get into <span class="DLF">line</span>!</sentence><sentence id="645">Fast!</sentence><sentence id="646">Fast!</sentence><sentence id="647">Antreten, und so weiter! [</sentence><sentence id="648">Ger: "Line up, and so on"]" And so on.</sentence><sentence id="649">When we're running, my son...I going... Somehow, I'm going to let him...my son is going to run in that <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span>.</sentence><sentence id="650">And you should run and stay in <span class="DLF">line</span> with...with your father's <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span>."</sentence><sentence id="651">And nobody's the wiser, because we were only numbers.</sentence><sentence id="652">We had no names.</sentence><sentence id="653">We're numbers.</sentence><sentence id="654">He said, "Surely, you wanted to be with your father and brother.</sentence><sentence id="655">And I want my son."</sentence><sentence id="656">And I said, "Oh, yes!</sentence><sentence id="657">Oh, what a wonderful thing."</sentence><sentence id="658">And it worked.</sentence><sentence id="659">It worked.</sentence><sentence id="660">I got to be together again with my family...which was left from my family.</sentence><sentence id="661">And he got his son.</sentence><sentence id="662">Now, at this point, I must say that when...when my mother and...uh, little sister... Back in...in...still in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Auschwitz</span>, when they...when the selections were over, and Mengele sent them to the right or to the left; remember they did sent them to the left, my mother and small sister.</sentence><sentence id="663">When the selection was complete...or were complete, they were taken direct to the <span class="INT_SPACE">gas chamber</span>.</sentence><sentence id="664">And they can...I'm sorry that I'm...I'm going back, but I...for the sake of...of the truth... They were given by...by the SS, a towel and a piece of soap.</sentence><sentence id="665">And it was in a..in a <span class="BUILDING">building</span> written "Bade"--means "Bath."</sentence><sentence id="666">And they were told that they going to go in to take <span class="INT_SPACE">showers</span>.</sentence><sentence id="667">Camouflaged the fact... See, that the SS didn't want uprising, they didn't want wailings and crying, and what have you.</sentence><sentence id="668">They were said, "No, no.</sentence><sentence id="669">Nothing's going to happen to you.</sentence><sentence id="670">Just go in and take <span class="INT_SPACE">showers</span>."</sentence><sentence id="671">Once they entered into that large <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span> and the <span class="DLF">door</span> was locked, they would let gas in there.</sentence><sentence id="672">Now, what the terrible thing was in... One of the...one of the lucky thing, in a way, for me...the terrible thing was they would be dead.</sentence><sentence id="673">Of course, they would be stark naked.</sentence><sentence id="674">They would be sending us to go and pick up the dead bodies who they Just gassed, and...and cart them up to the <span class="BUILDING">crematoria</span>.</sentence><sentence id="675">My...as I said, lucky for me, was that I was not the one at the time who belonged to the Sonderkommando.</sentence><sentence id="676">Because, I assure you, I would have killed myself right then and there.</sentence><sentence id="677">I could not see my mother being...and my sister being in that condition and...and killed, and then I would go on living.</sentence><sentence id="678">I couldn't survive it.</sentence><sentence id="679">Now, back when the Sonderkommando--other words, they were reunited.</sentence><sentence id="680">And my father and my brother, as I mentioned it, and I, were reunited.</sentence><sentence id="681">We were reunited and off to <span class="COUNTRY">France</span>.</sentence><sentence id="682">While we were going, one of the prisoner... I... told him, I said, "You know it's a terrible what's happened."</sentence><sentence id="683">I was telling, of course, in my very low key while we were going.</sentence><sentence id="684">I was saying, "It's terrible."</sentence><sentence id="685">I says, "I picked up dead bodies, and they...they...some of them were not dead at all.</sentence><sentence id="686">And if they would be attended, they would be healthy.</sentence><sentence id="687">They could have been made better, you know, cured them."</sentence><sentence id="688">The illness was only give more food and water.</sentence><sentence id="689">At any rate, he says, "Well, how long did you work in that Sonderkommando?"</sentence><sentence id="690">I said, "There were seven days that I worked."</sentence><sentence id="691">He says, "That was your last day, my dear."</sentence><sentence id="692">Says, "Next day, you and all the other Sonderkommando...uh...people would be burned, and new ones would be selected."</sentence><sentence id="693">They did not keep them but six or seven days.</sentence><sentence id="694">By...by a chance of...of... How else can I say but miracle?</sentence><sentence id="695">That if it would not be the fact from that father wanted his son... He didn't know either.</sentence><sentence id="696">But what was...the point was, as I was told later on, that the SS feared just by chance if someone would escape, by chance, and could tell the world the atrocities that they were doing. "</sentence><sentence id="697">Cause these people were burned alive.</sentence><sentence id="698">I mean, they were not at all dead.</sentence><sentence id="699">Most of them.</sentence><sentence id="700">Now in <span class="COUNTRY">France</span>, something happened that I am going to cherish, even it was dangerous and almost got shot to death.</sentence><sentence id="701">But I'll share this with you.</sentence><sentence id="702">I got to...uh...when we arrived, I was put...I was put in a <span class="BUILDING">ammunition factory</span>.</sentence><sentence id="703">And first...first three days, I was cutting parts.</sentence><sentence id="704">Certain <span class="NPIP">parts</span> to certain weapons.</sentence><sentence id="705">And then I was put to..put...I was put next to a machine, or to a machine, where I was filling up capsules with gunpowder.</sentence><sentence id="706">And that was for a secret weapon.</sentence><sentence id="707">Now we did not know that, and I found out only after liberation.</sentence><sentence id="708">But nevertheless, the Germans invented certain type of weapon.</sentence><sentence id="709">I don't know if it was not the V-2 rocket.</sentence><sentence id="710">When they shot an <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">airplane</span>, there was no escape.</sentence><sentence id="711">It was something...it may have a sensor kind of a...</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="848">Q: Don't worry about it.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="850">A: Yes.</sentence><sentence id="851">So that the...this drove the rocket to the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">plane</span>, it would tear it to pieces.</sentence><sentence id="852">So one...I was working and putting, as I said, gunpower.</sentence><sentence id="853">Fill the capsule with gunpowder, and ...and it was done by a machine.</sentence><sentence id="854">Now, I was guiding them.</sentence><sentence id="855">One day a prisoner who spoke Hungarian and Yiddish like myself; but he was a Frenchman.</sentence><sentence id="856">I didn't know then.</sentence><sentence id="857">Perfect Hungarian.</sentence><sentence id="858">And he says, "Uh, tell me.</sentence><sentence id="859">What would you do?</sentence><sentence id="860">Would you give up your life just to get rid of this maniac, Hitler?</sentence><sentence id="861">To defeat him, to get the war over...war over quicker?"</sentence><sentence id="862">I said, "Yes.</sentence><sentence id="863">Anything!</sentence><sentence id="864">Why?"</sentence><sentence id="865">He says, "Now, I want you to do this.</sentence><sentence id="866">See those?"</sentence><sentence id="867">They were electricians.</sentence><sentence id="868">They were French men.</sentence><sentence id="869">Civilians.</sentence><sentence id="870">They were working in that <span class="BUILDING">factory</span>, <span class="BUILDING">munition factory</span>.</sentence><sentence id="871">He says, "We're going to supply you with plain, ordinary sand.</sentence><sentence id="872">Now what I want you to do: you mix sand with the gunpowder before you put it in.</sentence><sentence id="873">Just put it in and mix it."</sentence><sentence id="874">Oh, it was nothing to it.</sentence><sentence id="875">They brought me some food.</sentence><sentence id="876">And there was...and there was a bottom to that.</sentence><sentence id="877">And J ate farina.</sentence><sentence id="878">I'll never forget it, because it was my favorite.</sentence><sentence id="879">Oh, sure!</sentence><sentence id="880">And I was doing it.</sentence><sentence id="881">One day, it's another group came.</sentence><sentence id="882">And one of the...among the newcomer prisoners, there was a Nazi.</sentence><sentence id="883">A spy, who detected the whole sabotage movement and identified the * Mr. Braun does not remember the name of this <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp.</span></sentence><sentence id="884">However, he believes it was near <span class="COUNTRY">Luxembourg</span>.</sentence><sentence id="885">He remembers seeing a sign which said "Villerupt." (</sentence><sentence id="886">Information from telephone conversation with Shony Alex Braun, 25 Jul 1991).</sentence><sentence id="887">Based on this information, it would appear that he was sent to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="49.477677" long="5.905758">Longwy-Thil</span>, a subcamp of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.454967" long="7.254425">Natzweiler</span> located in the northern Meurthe-et-Moselle section of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lorraine</span>, right on the <span class="DLF">Luxembourg border</span> (and close to the town of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Villerupt</span>).</sentence><sentence id="888">According to Arolsen, <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="49.477677" long="5.905758">Longwy-Thil</span> was opened on June 19, 1944 and closed in early September 1944--at which time, all of the prisoners were evacuated either to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Kochendorf</span> (in a transport sent September 1, 1944) or to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="51.021507" long="11.249238">Buchenwald</span>/<span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Dernau</span> (in a transport sent September 4, 1944).</sentence><sentence id="889">0 leader.</sentence><sentence id="890">And he happened to be a French captain from the <span class="INT_SPACE">underground</span>, smuggled among us.</sentence><sentence id="891">He was hanged.</sentence><sentence id="892">Everyone of us who worked...now I, now everybody were a saboteur.</sentence><sentence id="893">We were about 60 in that <span class="BUILDING">factory</span>, prisoners that working.</sentence><sentence id="894">Everyone did something different.</sentence><sentence id="895">But I was the one who was putting sand, mixed with the thing, so that the second stage would not go off.</sentence><sentence id="896">And we were...were not allowed to avert our eyes from this man.</sentence><sentence id="897">We had to wait "til he died, and watch him.</sentence><sentence id="898">Then 60 of us were lined up in a horizontal way, straight; and that SS guard came and looked.</sentence><sentence id="899">And went...he says, "You!</sentence><sentence id="900">Step out of the <span class="DLF">line</span>."</sentence><sentence id="901">And went, "You."</sentence><sentence id="902">Do you know that half of them were selected at random?</sentence><sentence id="903">Now he passed me twice, and he stilled needed one.</sentence><sentence id="904">God honest truth!</sentence><sentence id="905">He still needed one prisoner.</sentence><sentence id="906">He wanted still one.</sentence><sentence id="907">He passed me again.</sentence><sentence id="908">I... was passed by three times for the very same day selecting 30.Half of them were right away shot, right at random.</sentence><sentence id="909">The others--meaning me--were sent back to the <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span>, beaten severely; and I had a sign in my back this way, like a rainbow, said, "Saboteur."</sentence><sentence id="910">So that any time, as I would be walking by, one of the kapo or one of the SS, they just kicked me.</sentence><sentence id="911">And what does God do?</sentence><sentence id="912">Not long after they...we had to give up.</sentence><sentence id="913">So we gave up our...our uniform.</sentence><sentence id="914">FInally, we...somehow, we got washed or...or--believe it or not.</sentence><sentence id="915">This is incredible, "cause nothing was washed there.</sentence><sentence id="916">We were eaten up by lice and everything else.</sentence><sentence id="917">But this happened to be.</sentence><sentence id="918">And what does God do?</sentence><sentence id="919">I did not get the "Saboteur" back; so I was just a plain, ordinary prisoner.</sentence><sentence id="920">That was another miracle that I was not picked; because the idea was really, "Let me now suffer for a while."</sentence><sentence id="921">And for...for many of us that they were selected, 30 of them--believe it or not, whoever listens to this--it's...it's incredible.</sentence><sentence id="922">For 29 of them, were given back the "Saboteur" thing.</sentence><sentence id="923">I was not having any.</sentence><sentence id="924">I was just having a plain, ordinary uniform.</sentence><sentence id="925">How it happened, I don't know.</sentence><sentence id="926">This is another miracle.</sentence><sentence id="927">Not speaking of the miracle really, I call.</sentence><sentence id="928">If you call...if somebody calls it "coincident," okay.</sentence><sentence id="929">But I do believe in miracles.</sentence><sentence id="930">So.</sentence><sentence id="931">Now not long after that, we were...the Allies were near.</sentence><sentence id="932">So the Germans--or the SS, I should say really-- liquidated us.</sentence><sentence id="933">They transferred us back...back to <span class="COUNTRY">Germany</span>.</sentence><sentence id="934">And while during the way we're going, you know, the Allies... the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">planes</span> could be seen near.</sentence><sentence id="935">And occasionally these SS guards would be stopping and shooting at them, and they shot back.</sentence><sentence id="936">So many times, unfortunately, we prisoners got also the bullets flying from the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">airplanes</span>.</sentence><sentence id="937">I have to mention something which happened--uh, talking about <span class="COUNTRY">France</span> and I saboteur...sabotaged.</sentence><sentence id="938">Happened in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Cleveland</span>, <span class="REGION">Ohio</span>, in the early part of 50s.</sentence><sentence id="939">Uh, I came from <span class="BUILDING">school</span>.</sentence><sentence id="940">I was going to <span class="BUILDING">Western Reserve University</span>.</sentence><sentence id="941">And somebody gave me a check; because I had...[ had no money, and I bought a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">car</span> and I had to pay out certain things.</sentence><sentence id="942">So a friend...uh, gave me a check.</sentence><sentence id="943">And I thought, well, a check would be cashed at any <span class="BUILDING">bank</span>.</sentence><sentence id="944">So I just walked in, and it had difficulty.</sentence><sentence id="945">I had language difficulty; and certainly I had no money in any <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">car</span>, in any...no account of a <span class="BUILDING">bank</span>, not theirs or any other.</sentence><sentence id="946">So it was about noontime.</sentence><sentence id="947">And the teller was kind enough to escort me into <span class="BUILDING">bank</span>...bank president's office, so that he spoke several languages.</sentence><sentence id="948">And maybe one of the languages that he spoke would be matching which...which I speak, you know, which I spoke.</sentence><sentence id="949">So at any rate...uh, now I speak five.</sentence><sentence id="950">At the time, it was four.</sentence><sentence id="951">This English was not the first.</sentence><sentence id="952">At any rate, I went to the bank director, and he was very courteous.</sentence><sentence id="953">And he says, "Well," he says, "are you French?"</sentence><sentence id="954">And I said, "No."</sentence><sentence id="955">Because | ask him...I said, "Can we speak...Do you speak German?</sentence><sentence id="956">Do you speak French?"</sentence><sentence id="957">And he says, "German."</sentence><sentence id="958">He says, "Well, are you French?"</sentence><sentence id="959">And I said, "No, but I was in <span class="COUNTRY">France</span>."</sentence><sentence id="960">And I was relating the story what I actually did.</sentence><sentence id="961">And when I got to the point that I put sand instead of gun powder, he sprang from his...his <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">chair</span> where he was seated at the 1 <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">desk</span> and ran to me and grabbed my hand and says, "God bless you!</sentence><sentence id="962">God Bless you!"</sentence><sentence id="963">I said, "Well, thank you."</sentence><sentence id="964">He says, "Now, well, let me explain.</sentence><sentence id="965">My son and his...and mine crew, they were fighter pilots."</sentence><sentence id="966">You know, they were bombing an <span class="REGION">area</span> around <span class="COUNTRY">France</span>, around the place where the...where that <span class="BUILDING">munition factory</span> was.</sentence><sentence id="967">And they were shot with one of these rockets which got caught...the rocket got caught in the wing or in the tail of the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">plane</span>.</sentence><sentence id="968">They carried it back with them to the base.</sentence><sentence id="969">And, very carefully, they took this bomb...the rocket apart, see why it did not explode.</sentence><sentence id="970">They found sand in...in that <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">capsule</span>, which did not allow for the second stage impact.</sentence><sentence id="971">You know, the blowing up.</sentence><sentence id="972">Did not allow to blow up.</sentence><sentence id="973">Now, that was in about "51 or "52.</sentence><sentence id="974">Now, not long ago, in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Houston</span>, <span class="REGION">Texas</span>, another fighter pilot was-- actually, I... found out about this fighter pilot was shot with one of this kind of a shell, and his did not explode.</sentence><sentence id="975">Now, I'm only praying to God, and I hope that there were many of these.</sentence><sentence id="976">Because if I would have been dead or they would have killed me, but knowing this now, I say, "It would have been worth it!"</sentence><sentence id="977">Just to save that many lives of..of Allies, you know.</sentence><sentence id="978">Soldiers that they were trying to liberate the world from such a terrible thing.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1110">Q: Let's go back.</sentence><sentence id="1111">You are in <span class="COUNTRY">France</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1112">Tell us what happened next.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1116">A: When...after the selection in <span class="COUNTRY">France</span> and being shot...executed because of the sabotage.</sentence><sentence id="1117">And some miracle...miraculous way I was saved.</sentence><sentence id="1118">Then not long after, as I mentioned, we were again transferred to another <span class="NPIP">place</span>--to <span class="COUNTRY">Germany</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1119">And in <span class="COUNTRY">Germany</span>, I was assigned to work in a <span class="DLF">salt mine</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1120">My brother and my father, they were still alive.</sentence><sentence id="1121">So all three of us managed still to be together.</sentence><sentence id="1122">And we were working; and one...at Yom Kippur, in the <span class="DLF">salt mine</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1123">All of a sudden, the <span class="DLF">mine</span> became dark; and we said, "This is a sign from <span class="NPIP">heaven</span>!"</sentence><sentence id="1124">Because we were terribly tired.</sentence><sentence id="1125">Now at this point we were less and less.</sentence><sentence id="1126">We got less and less food, and we were...while our... Our condition was so deteriorated that some peopled started to get shingles.</sentence><sentence id="1127">And they...they would be just working in this second, and the next second they would just keel over.</sentence><sentence id="1128">And if you did that, they would not bother with you.</sentence><sentence id="1129">I mean, there was no <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1130">There was no <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span> where you could rest.</sentence><sentence id="1131">They would take you and be done with you; either to the <span class="INT_SPACE">gas chamber</span> or they shot you to death.</sentence><sentence id="1132">Or throw you into the <span class="DLF">ditch</span>, and you die there.</sentence><sentence id="1133">In the <span class="DLF">salt mine</span>--as I said, Yom Kippur--immediately as the <span class="REGION">area</span> became dark, we dropped everything and we sat down.</sentence><sentence id="1134">Now, our...our work was, in the <span class="DLF">salt mine</span>, to... They detonated big salt stones; and then we came with the... Would you believe that?</sentence><sentence id="1135">A 14 year-old, at this point.</sentence><sentence id="1136">We came and had those heavy hammers, and we were trying to break the salt stones--huge salt stones.</sentence><sentence id="1137">Pieces as ...as large probably as...as...as this <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span>, or larger.</sentence><sentence id="1138">And they were actually...the Germans were building an <span class="DLF">underground street</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1139">A whole <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> underground.</sentence><sentence id="1140">They were going to uh... uh...save the factories--(clearing throat) excuse me-- <span class="BUILDING">munition factories</span>, because the Allies bombed them too much.</sentence><sentence id="1141">So they...they wanted to save them; and we were the one who was going...who were going to build.</sentence><sentence id="1142">And we did, in fact.</sentence><sentence id="1143">There were so many fantastic <span class="NPIP">places</span> under the ground.</sentence><sentence id="1144">I...I couldn't possibly tell you.</sentence><sentence id="1145">Maybe...maybe 200 feet under.</sentence><sentence id="1146">And...but, as...as we were dropping on the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">ground</span> ourselves ..uh...in 10 minutes later, light came back.</sentence><sentence id="1147">Electricity was restored.</sentence><sentence id="1148">What happened was actually one of prisoners who ask himself to be allowed to go to the latrina...you know, you call it.</sentence><sentence id="1149">He couldn't stand it any longer.</sentence><sentence id="1150">He had a...a fork or a spoon fashioned into--you know, you were doing that--into a knife.</sentence><sentence id="1151">And he cut the electric wire, and everything in that 2 specific <span class="REGION">area</span> became dark.</sentence><sentence id="1152">Within seconds--I mean, not seconds.</sentence><sentence id="1153">We were minutes.</sentence><sentence id="1154">Uh, it took 10 minutes total to restore order, to restore the light.</sentence><sentence id="1155">But the kapo noticed, and knew who was the one who went by that.</sentence><sentence id="1156">He was caught.</sentence><sentence id="1157">Then he was beaten severely.</sentence><sentence id="1158">Again, we had to witness his hanging.</sentence><sentence id="1159">And then again the same thing.</sentence><sentence id="1160">People that they were there were picked at random.</sentence><sentence id="1161">Again, I was bypassed.</sentence><sentence id="1162">But we got a severe beating.</sentence><sentence id="1163">And what happened actually, when we...when we dropped--I forgot to tell you--we were starting to chant the Kol Nidre.</sentence><sentence id="1164">Somebody started; and there was about 40, 50 of us over there in that <span class="REGION">area</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1165">And the others got... Even...even if you didn't know the words, you know, you started started chanting it; because it was...it was Kol Nidre, it was Yom Kippur.</sentence><sentence id="1166">And when the light came back, the the SS came in and were severely beating us. "</sentence><sentence id="1167">There's... there's no chanting!There's no...uh...holiday!</sentence><sentence id="1168">There's arbeit!</sentence><sentence id="1169">There's work!"</sentence><sentence id="1170">And as I said, we then had to watch him hang.</sentence><sentence id="1171">When...when we were...while we were still in <span class="DLF">salt mines</span>, which was in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Kochendorf</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1172">> This is a small <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1173">February...February 1945, my father turned 42.</sentence><sentence id="1174">And at <span class="BUILDING">home</span> we used to exchange gifts.</sentence><sentence id="1175">We would be buying something for our parents, you know, even each other.</sentence><sentence id="1176">No matter how small; but the idea we buying presents.</sentence><sentence id="1177">And...but we had absolutely nothing to give.</sentence><sentence id="1178">The SS stripped us of everything.</sentence><sentence id="1179">Then I came up with the idea; and I went to my brother--whose name was Zoltan.</sentence><sentence id="1180">And I said, "Why don't we give him our ration of bread for the day?"</sentence><sentence id="1181">Now, our ration of bread was just a piece of bread.</sentence><sentence id="1182">So Zoltan liked that, and he says, "Yes!"</sentence><sentence id="1183">So in the evening, we approached our father and held out our hands with a piece of bread in it.</sentence><sentence id="1184">And he would not hear about it.</sentence><sentence id="1185">He says, "No!</sentence><sentence id="1186">That is nourishment for you.</sentence><sentence id="1187">That means life.</sentence><sentence id="1188">I wouldn't think about it!"</sentence><sentence id="1189">But we kept on insisting.</sentence><sentence id="1190">So, and finally our...our insistence--with tears in his eyes, he said, "Thank God, that allowed me to live long enough to witness that graciousness, that love from my sons."</sentence><sentence id="1191">Next morning when would... [TAPE SPEED PROBLEM: END OF TAPE] 5 Subcamp of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.454967" long="7.254425">Natzweiler</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1192">Located near <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Wiirttemberg</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1193">Opened September 3, 1944.</sentence><sentence id="1194">3 TAPE #3 TECHNICAL CONVERSATION</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1277">Q: The next morning...</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1279">A: Next morning at 5:00 AM, as we always we did before going to the <span class="DLF">salt mine</span>, we were counted.</sentence><sentence id="1280">One prisoner was missing.</sentence><sentence id="1281">After several recounts, prisoner...one prisoner was still missing.</sentence><sentence id="1282">So the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">kapos</span> went to the <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span> to see...or to look for him.</sentence><sentence id="1283">And they found the missing man sleeping in the corner.</sentence><sentence id="1284">My father!</sentence><sentence id="1285">They dragged him from...from his collar, from...from his collar to the SS guard.</sentence><sentence id="1286">That's February: cold, snowing, ice on the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">ground</span>.</sentence></p><p><sentence id="1287">And the SS guard turned to the assembly, to us.</sentence><sentence id="1288">And he said, "As I understand, the Jewish dog has here two sons.</sentence><sentence id="1289">I want them to step out and come near him.</sentence><sentence id="1290">Witness his punishment."</sentence><sentence id="1291">So we had to step out.</sentence><sentence id="1292">So we step out, and we were standing near him.</sentence><sentence id="1293">Then he turned to the rest of them.</sentence><sentence id="1294">He says, "This dirty Jewish dog kept <span class="COUNTRY">Germany</span> from victory 10 minutes, because that's how long it took to find him!"</sentence><sentence id="1295">Then he gave a swift kick to my father, which signaled the kapos to start the punishment.</sentence><sentence id="1296">They rushed toward him, and was kicking and beating him from all direction.</sentence><sentence id="1297">Whipping him.</sentence><sentence id="1298">We fell on our knees.</sentence><sentence id="1299">And we turned to the SS and said, "Please, stop!</sentence><sentence id="1300">Beat us!</sentence><sentence id="1301">Please don't do it!"</sentence><sentence id="1302">The...the beating was even more severe.</sentence><sentence id="1303">Then slowly, I started chanting the...the 22nd Psalm.</sentence><sentence id="1304">I think it's the 22nd. "</sentence><sentence id="1305">Eli, Eli, lama azavtanu?"--"Oh, God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken us?"</sentence><sentence id="1306">They were beating him until he collapsed, my father.</sentence><sentence id="1307">And was silent; except for his lips were moving, try to say something.</sentence><sentence id="1308">And I noticed...came closer, and I noticed that he was reciting the declaration of faith of the Jewish people.</sentence><sentence id="1309">Sh'ma.</sentence><sentence id="1310">The Sh'm</sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1311">a: "Sh'ma Israel, Adonai elohenu, Adonai echad"--"Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One."</sentence><sentence id="1312">And he was very silent.</sentence><sentence id="1313">I must tell you that, first time in my life, the faith in <span class="NPIP">God</span> was destroyed.</sentence><sentence id="1314">Completely broken.</sentence><sentence id="1315">Like so many times, I heard after, people say: "How could God allow something like that happen to innocent people?"</sentence><sentence id="1316">This is the same question I put then.</sentence><sentence id="1317">How could God allow?</sentence><sentence id="1318">I had no answer.</sentence><sentence id="1319">Then, at night, in my <span class="NPIP">dream</span>, my father appear.</sentence><sentence id="1320">And this is what he said. "</sentence><sentence id="1321"><span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Yitzhak</span>."</sentence><sentence id="1322">He called me my Hebrew name.</sentence><sentence id="1323">He says, "Don't ever lose your faith in God.</sentence><sentence id="1324"><span class="NPIP">God</span> is real.</sentence><sentence id="1325">You'll see.</sentence><sentence id="1326">You'll survive."</sentence><sentence id="1327">Now, he spoke Hungarian in my <span class="NPIP">dream</span>; but what was so strange, he didn't say plural.</sentence><sentence id="1328">He said, "you,"-- meaning "you and your brother"--but he said "you" the singular.</sentence><sentence id="1329">And when we...when I woke up... Now, previous day when we seen that, Zoltan-- who was my brother--who was a very strong individual... He was one of those kind of a workout constantly, with muscles some...uh...incredible...uh...size.</sentence><sentence id="1330">And he said...and he said to me, he says, "I am going to kill that SS! "</sentence><sentence id="1331">Cause I don't want to live any longer.</sentence><sentence id="1332">I cannot stand it any longer.</sentence><sentence id="1333">I am going to commit suicide; but I am going to take that SS guard who gave the order for our father to be killed by being beaten to death!"</sentence><sentence id="1334">And I said, "Zoltan, you wouldn't even come one step close, not even five inches close, to him before you would be shot.</sentence><sentence id="1335">Don't do it!"</sentence><sentence id="1336">No, he...he was determined to do it.</sentence><sentence id="1337">And when the dream I told him, I said, "Father said, "Don't lose all your faith in God."</sentence><sentence id="1338">Which, of course, that restored my faith immediately. "</sentence><sentence id="1339">But he said also we going to survive."</sentence><sentence id="1340">Then he completely abandoned the idea of killing; because he would have done that.</sentence><sentence id="1341">I mean, you couldn't be...you wouldn't be able to lull that man, but he would be killed right away.</sentence><sentence id="1342">And so one day the SS again gathered us 4 together.</sentence><sentence id="1343">Now, we're still in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Kochendorf</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1344">They gathered us.</sentence><sentence id="1345">Now, they're going to evacuate us for...another time.</sentence><sentence id="1346">This time, destination <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.269612" long="11.468478">Dachau</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1347">When in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.269612" long="11.468478">Dachau</span>... Again they pulled the very same thing, like going from <span class="COUNTRY">France</span> to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Kochendorf</span>, back to Germany.deg Except this time, was much more severe.</sentence><sentence id="1348">They stopped the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1349">And got out and started again, seeing the pilots coming so close... We could see actually the pilot.</sentence><sentence id="1350">They started shooting.</sentence><sentence id="1351">They took refuge or cover under the...under the uh <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>, you know.</sentence><sentence id="1352">And these ...these pilots shot back.</sentence><sentence id="1353">So, again, quite a few of the prisoners were shot.</sentence><sentence id="1354">Now, in my... When we were in <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">cattle cars</span>, the bullets were flying left and right.</sentence><sentence id="1355">And somebody... See, we were so sandwiched together that if you sit...if you sat down, you couldn't get up.</sentence><sentence id="1356">If you were standing, you could not sit down.</sentence><sentence id="1357">Because if you wanted to sit, the prisoners would be like dogs; fighting among each other, too.</sentence><sentence id="1358">Completely we were brought down to the level of animals.</sentence><sentence id="1359">And I happened to be seated at that point.</sentence><sentence id="1360">The bullets were flying; and one of the prisoners who was very near me was shot and he fell.</sentence><sentence id="1361">And he fell right on my head.</sentence><sentence id="1362">And he died on my foot.</sentence><sentence id="1363">And I couldn't...I tried to push him off.</sentence><sentence id="1364">I couldn't push him off.</sentence><sentence id="1365">There were no <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span> to ...to make.</sentence><sentence id="1366">And it was the most awful thing.</sentence><sentence id="1367">It was another two or three days.</sentence><sentence id="1368">Can you imagine?</sentence><sentence id="1369">This man is on my foot.</sentence><sentence id="1370">People, believe it!</sentence><sentence id="1371">That's incredible!</sentence><sentence id="1372">That's almost as impossible.</sentence><sentence id="1373">Impossible!</sentence><sentence id="1374">It's somehow possible.</sentence><sentence id="1375">It was on my foot then; and I couldn't... couldn't...My...my foot, both of them were numb--went to sleep, as you say.</sentence><sentence id="1376">You know.</sentence><sentence id="1377">Numb.</sentence><sentence id="1378">And I tried desperately to move.</sentence><sentence id="1379">Can you manage how like sandwich...over a sandwich, like sardines.</sentence><sentence id="1380">You couldn't move...you couldn't move your...your leg one way or the other.</sentence><sentence id="1381">Incredible!</sentence><sentence id="1382">Incredible!</sentence><sentence id="1383">So, finally, we arrived to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.269612" long="11.468478">Dachau</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1384">After a day or so, I knew if something not going to happen soon, I'm not going to survive.</sentence><sentence id="1385">At this point, I was so weak that I could hardly stand.</sentence><sentence id="1386">And you have to stand, no matter what happen.</sentence><sentence id="1387">When an SS guard came, in his presence you have to...you have to stand.</sentence><sentence id="1388">One day, as we were standing in <span class="DLF">line</span>, Zoltan--my brother--just fell.</sentence><sentence id="1389">I said, "Oh, my God!</sentence><sentence id="1390">Zoltan, get up!"</sentence><sentence id="1391">I said, "What's wrong with you?"</sentence><sentence id="1392">He said, "I don't feel good.</sentence><sentence id="1393">I don't feel good."</sentence><sentence id="1394">And so he was taken away.</sentence><sentence id="1395">I was told that he's gonna be taken into a <span class="NPIP">place</span> in the <span class="BUILDING">Revier</span> [Ger: <span class="BUILDING">Hospital</span>].</sentence><sentence id="1396">They put him in to--I found out...what I'm gonna tell you right now, I found out only after liberation and only a month or two later, when...when I got to myself, even.</sentence><sentence id="1397">Because I was a long time in <span class="NPIP">coma</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1398">But we found out why.</sentence><sentence id="1399">But he...he was taken away; and never seen him.</sentence><sentence id="1400">And I was told that when an SS guard walked into that <span class="NPIP">place</span>, they would allow him maybe a few hours.</sentence><sentence id="1401">And then, since he was strong enough--I mean, looked strong enough--to work, they would give him a few hours to recuperate.</sentence><sentence id="1402">See what happens?</sentence><sentence id="1403">When an SS walked in, everybody had to stand up.</sentence><sentence id="1404">No matter how...how sick or what.</sentence><sentence id="1405">Now, when he couldn't stand up, this SS stepped on his neck and choked him to death with his boots.</sentence><sentence id="1406">Pressing his boots with his neck, and choked him to death.</sentence><sentence id="1407">I only found after...after liberation, now as I mentioned.</sentence><sentence id="1408">But as I...as I said, in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.269612" long="11.468478">Dachau</span> now, about a few days later I knew if something desperate...if something drastic not going to happen, I would not...I'm gonna wind up giving up.</sentence><sentence id="1409">Because I... couldn't... couldn't stand on my feet.</sentence><sentence id="1410">What happens?</sentence><sentence id="1411">One day an SS walks in, late night, wakes up the whole thing.</sentence><sentence id="1412">You know?</sentence><sentence id="1413">We were on just a piece of...of wood we were ...uh...uh...sleeping on.</sentence><sentence id="1414">And he says, "Who can play the violin..." He's holding a violin and bow in his hand. "</sentence><sentence id="1415">Who can play the violin, come in the <span class="INT_SPACE">front room</span>."</sentence><sentence id="1416">This is where the <span class="BUILDING">Kapos 6</span> According to Arolsen, this evacuation took place on April 9, 1945.</sentence><sentence id="1417">5 were, and this is where the <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span> doctor was.</sentence><sentence id="1418">A Frenchman, by the way.</sentence><sentence id="1419">And he says, "If you played..."--the guard--"that I'm going to like it, we gonna give you plenty of food and water."</sentence><sentence id="1420">Because that was terrible.</sentence><sentence id="1421">We didn't have water.</sentence><sentence id="1422">I and two others were volunteering.</sentence><sentence id="1423">So we walked at the front...<span class="INT_SPACE">front room</span> of the <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span>, smaller <span class="INT_SPACE">room</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1424">And the violin was handed to the older man, who was in his 40s.</sentence><sentence id="1425">He tuned the violin.</sentence><sentence id="1426">The first few notes were shaky, but then he started to play Bach "Chacon,"--one of the sonata from Bach.</sentence><sentence id="1427">It's so gorgeous, I never heard anything like that.</sentence><sentence id="1428">Never heard it!</sentence><sentence id="1429">But the SS was pulling his nose, like [it] stinks.</sentence><sentence id="1430">Now one of the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">kapos</span>...there were two <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">kapos</span> plus the <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span> doctor were allowed to have that comfortable room--if you want to call it, you know, that <span class="INT_SPACE">front room</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1431">And one of the Kapo took the violin away from his hand.</sentence><sentence id="1432">The other Kapo picked up a thick iron pipe, went behind this violinist; and he hit him so severely from behind that he cracked his skull open.</sentence><sentence id="1433">And the...the blood and brain were splashing all over...all over the <span class="INT_SPACE">floor</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1434">And "God, my God!,"</sentence><sentence id="1435">I said to myself, "They don't want...they don't want no playing!</sentence><sentence id="1436">This is another kind of a entertainment for the sake of the SS!"</sentence><sentence id="1437">Which so many times the Kapos did that, and they did themselves.</sentence><sentence id="1438">And I was petrified.</sentence><sentence id="1439">Now I wanted to sneak back in the <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1440">And one of the kapo picked me up from the collar and dragged me back.</sentence><sentence id="1441">And while that was going on, they gave the violin to the second one.</sentence><sentence id="1442">Now, he was about...I would say, about a 25 year-old young man, who was so shaken that he...he put the violin on--and you could see he was trembling--and not...not a note.</sentence><sentence id="1443">He..he...he didn't play a note.</sentence><sentence id="1444">It was nothing he could play.</sentence><sentence id="1445">And the SS says to him, "How do you dare come out when you cannot play the violin?!"</sentence><sentence id="1446">And they started kicking him.</sentence><sentence id="1447">They kicked...kicked his ribs in, because L...I noticed that he couldn't breath.</sentence><sentence id="1448">He was like... So he died right there.</sentence><sentence id="1449">They...they pulled him off.</sentence><sentence id="1450">Now while that was going on, now the Kapo picked up the violin and puts it in my hand and says, "Spiel!"--"Play!" "</sentence><sentence id="1451">You came out," he says in German, "to play the violin.</sentence><sentence id="1452">Play!"</sentence><sentence id="1453">I was standing--here, something happened that not up today I could explain.</sentence><sentence id="1454">Not up today.</sentence><sentence id="1455">Now, if all the things that happened up to me...that I escaped two or three executions, you know.</sentence><sentence id="1456">And switching with the son of the Sonderkommando places.</sentence><sentence id="1457">And then I was not burned, but I was able to go to <span class="COUNTRY">France</span>, and...and so on.</sentence><sentence id="1458">That ...if you want to call that...if somebody want to call this coincidence; [but] what happened to me here, this I like to...somebody to explain to me.</sentence><sentence id="1459">Any other <span class="NPIP">way</span> but a miracle.</sentence><sentence id="1460">So the violin, as I was mentioning, was given to my hand.</sentence><sentence id="1461">I'm standing there... Now, when I got out of the <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span>, I figured when my turn comes to play, I'm gonna play which I feel comfortable.</sentence><sentence id="1462">I'm gonna play either a Sonatina by Dvolak, which I performed; in fact, later I performed in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Radio Munich</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1463">But which... Or I'm gonna play...uh...a Kreisler composition.</sentence><sentence id="1464">But when...when I saw what I saw, and the violin in my hand, my mind went completely blank.</sentence><sentence id="1465">Nothing came to me.</sentence><sentence id="1466">And I said to myself, "God, how is this Sonatina starts?</sentence><sentence id="1467">How is... the Kreisler piece starts?</sentence><sentence id="1468">My God, how...how does anything starts?!"</sentence><sentence id="1469">I couldn't think of anything!</sentence><sentence id="1470">And now I noticed, from the corner of my eyes, that the murderer kapo picked up the iron pipe again and was walking toward me.</sentence><sentence id="1471">And I knew I'm gonna be killed.</sentence><sentence id="1472">I knew it.</sentence><sentence id="1473">So my right hand and my left hand all of a sudden started moving in perfect harmony.</sentence><sentence id="1474">And the Strauss "Blue Danube" was heard coming out of my violin.</sentence><sentence id="1475">Now, how I never thought of the "Blue Danube."</sentence><sentence id="1476">Never.</sentence><sentence id="1477">I heard it.</sentence><sentence id="1478">In fact, I...I'm even hate to admit to you, I never even played it really.</sentence><sentence id="1479">I heard it many times from the Gypsies, and [from] my brother--who was a fantastic accordionist in his <span class="BUILDING">high school</span> group.</sentence><sentence id="1480">But playing, I was not even allowed to play anything 6 else but classical.</sentence><sentence id="1481">And the kapo looked at...eagerly to...to the SS: "When shall I whack him?When shall I hit him?"</sentence><sentence id="1482">Instead, the SS guard was humming the melody, and was beating the rhythm with his fingers--like 1, 2, 3...1, 2, 3.</sentence><sentence id="1483">And he...he just smiled and, "Let him live."</sentence><sentence id="1484">Now that specific night there was that French doctor, the <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span> doctor.</sentence><sentence id="1485">He also went around another <span class="BUILDING">barracks</span>, attending.</sentence><sentence id="1486">I don't know why they needed a doctor when we couldn't get nothing.</sentence><sentence id="1487">However, he was there.</sentence><sentence id="1488">And I reminded him of his son, who was about the same age as I and who was not passed by Mengele; because Mengele thought that he was too young to live--meaning, his son.</sentence><sentence id="1489">And from that time on, he made sure that I would have more to eat.</sentence><sentence id="1490">He did not... he got permission from the SS to keep me in the <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span> and do the chores; like washing the <span class="INT_SPACE">floors</span>, or even helping, you know, sometimes going and picking up those little cans which were cucumber peels.</sentence><sentence id="1491">This was our ration, you know?</sentence><sentence id="1492">And some kind of a black looking...uh...dirty water, which they called it "coffee."</sentence><sentence id="1493">But nevertheless, that allowed me to stay <span class="NPIP">inside</span> rather than go out in this...in that watery weather.</sentence><sentence id="1494">Which was very... How can I tell you?</sentence><sentence id="1495">Muddy.</sentence><sentence id="1496">You know, in that time of the month, specifically.</sentence><sentence id="1497">Which, as I mentioned, was in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.269612" long="11.468478">Dachau</span>; and ...and...uh...it was April, early part, and this is where the raining kind of a thing comes.</sentence><sentence id="1498">And that allowed me to come to myself.</sentence><sentence id="1499">I got an extra cucumber maybe, you know.</sentence><sentence id="1500">And the SS would...would be giving to these people the...even the bread.</sentence><sentence id="1501">For instance, the Kapos would help themselves before they would divide it.</sentence><sentence id="1502">Now, this SS... We have time?</sentence><sentence id="1503">This SS would then take me to the <span class="BUILDING">SS barracks</span>, and I would be playing.</sentence><sentence id="1504">From that time on, I could play anything.</sentence><sentence id="1505">It was fine.</sentence><sentence id="1506">But you know what they did?</sentence><sentence id="1507">When I finished... By the way, that Kapo who was the murderer, he--at this point, when he saw that the SS loved what I was doing, the Strauss waltz... There was a guitar hanging on the <span class="DLF">wall</span>, which was his; and he took the guitar off the <span class="DLF">wall</span> and started accompanying me.</sentence><sentence id="1508">Now the SS had...had an idea.</sentence><sentence id="1509">He took him and I--this murderer Kapo and myself--go over to the <span class="BUILDING">SS barracks</span> and play for his comrades.</sentence><sentence id="1510">So we did that.</sentence><sentence id="1511">When...when they said, "Hast du genug gespielt?"--Said, "Enough?</sentence><sentence id="1512">Did you play enough?" "</sentence><sentence id="1513">Well, if you don't want me to play more, then yes."</sentence><sentence id="1514">Then he says, "Go stand to the <span class="DLF">wall</span>."</sentence><sentence id="1515">There was a <span class="DLF">brick wall</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1516">And what they were doing, they were shooting... They were drinking beer, and they were shooting at...at me; a head above me, side of me.</sentence><sentence id="1517">You can imagine!</sentence><sentence id="1518">I was like...How can I tell you?</sentence><sentence id="1519">If they... Wishing: "Please end it.</sentence><sentence id="1520">Please, end it."</sentence><sentence id="1521">And no matter how low, how animalistic, but you have that...still want to live.</sentence><sentence id="1522">I mean, if you do <span class="NPIP">death</span>, this then end it once.</sentence><sentence id="1523">They would never accept that some of the chips which came off the <span class="DLF">wall</span> would graze me, would cut me here and there.</sentence><sentence id="1524">But never hit me.</sentence><sentence id="1525">Not one time.</sentence><sentence id="1526">The Kapo!</sentence><sentence id="1527">That murderer Kapo, he was asked...he says, "Now your turn."</sentence><sentence id="1528">By the way, the shooting happened many times after that.</sentence><sentence id="1529">Day in, day out.</sentence><sentence id="1530">Always ended up with giving me a nice slice of salami and...and also a bread, and a bucket full of water.</sentence><sentence id="1531">But believe it or not, I...I was so uh overtaken by that that I couldn't eat anything.</sentence><sentence id="1532">And besides that, when I went back to the <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span>, the rest of the...uh...prisoners... They allowed me to go take it into the <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1533">The rest of the prisoners were like...like hungry dogs.</sentence><sentence id="1534">Attack me.</sentence><sentence id="1535">And they would tear the bread out of my hand.</sentence><sentence id="1536">So one day, he was told by one, he says, one SS was--in fact, the one who found the violin--he was celebrating his birthday, and again got both of us out late.</sentence><sentence id="1537">He wants to...he wants to celebrate.</sentence><sentence id="1538">So we should go and play.</sentence><sentence id="1539">We went to play.</sentence><sentence id="1540">This SS--who, as I said, witnessed the beating and he was giving the okay--but his birthday it was.</sentence><sentence id="1541">So when I was told to stand in...on the <span class="DLF">wall</span>, because they going to play now with shooting, he said, 7 "No."</sentence><sentence id="1542">Now the kapo--the head prisoner--he want him to stand there.</sentence><sentence id="1543">So he...he says he is going to do the shooting alone because that's his birthday.</sentence><sentence id="1544">So he had his beer, he sipped it, he drank, and he aimed.</sentence><sentence id="1545">That's what they did before with me, too.</sentence><sentence id="1546">He aimed to my head; and the last second they would shoot and...go up.</sentence><sentence id="1547">So they saw me seeing that they're... right...going to be shooting me right in here (points to forehead).</sentence><sentence id="1548">But in the last second--I don't how they did it--but the last second, as he did the bullet went over.</sentence><sentence id="1549">He again... Now this time, as I mentioned, this Kapo--the murderer with the iron pipe, who is now the guitarist--he aimed it at his head, and he pulled the trigger without moving it and he hit him right in his...in his eyes.</sentence><sentence id="1550">Between his eyes.</sentence><sentence id="1551">The Kapo fell like a sack.</sentence><sentence id="1552">Was dead instantly.</sentence><sentence id="1553">All he says to...the SS says, "Oh, I missed!"</sentence><sentence id="1554">Then he...he clicked ...clicked his...his heels, and he says, "Prosit!"-- means, "To your health!"--toward the Kapo.</sentence><sentence id="1555">Now then the other SS, they started to...to...uh...argue among them who is going to do the shooting for me.</sentence><sentence id="1556">Other words, now it's my turn to stand there.</sentence><sentence id="1557">And while they could not agree and they started to be violent, another SS told me to get the H-E-L-L out of here.</sentence><sentence id="1558">Because he was afraid they're gonna shoot up each other.</sentence><sentence id="1559">But there again, I am sure if I...if | would have been standing there back over there, he would have done the same thing to me.</sentence><sentence id="1560">He would have done the same.</sentence><sentence id="1561">But what happens: now, here I just escaped death again.</sentence><sentence id="1562">But... To go on?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1821">Q: Actually, let's hold it a minute.</sentence><sentence id="1822">This is a good time to break.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="1825">TECHNICAL CONVERSATION 8 TAPE #4 TECHNICAL CONVERSATION</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1828">Q: OK.</sentence><sentence id="1829">We're back on camera.</sentence><sentence id="1830">You have now gone back to the <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1831">Tell us what happened.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1836">A: So as I mentioned, that these...they were afraid and they're going to be a riot, and they're going to shoot each other.</sentence><sentence id="1837">Because they were arguing, these SS, who should do the shooting when I be put against the <span class="DLF">wall</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1838">I was...my turn was to... Before it was only me who was standing there, but this time also, as I mentioned, that Kapo.</sentence><sentence id="1839">Yah?</sentence><sentence id="1840">And he was shot to death.</sentence><sentence id="1841">So I was escorted by another SS back to the <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1842">Not long after that happened, one day the SS came and he said, "Jews, Germans,"--because there were German prisoners--"Poles.</sentence><sentence id="1843">Get out of the <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span>."</sentence><sentence id="1844">And we were told that the...the Allies were very near.</sentence><sentence id="1845">We could really daily see some of them flying over.</sentence><sentence id="1846">It was in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.269612" long="11.468478">Dachau</span>, now.</sentence><sentence id="1847">Over <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.269612" long="11.468478">Dachau</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1848">And...uh...we could really see the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">pilots</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1849">And we were so overwhelmed, I cannot tell you.</sentence><sentence id="1850">And he said they're going to evacuate the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp,</span> <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.269612" long="11.468478">Dachau</span>; and they're going to take it probably to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Tyrol</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1851">But they wanted us to get out; and we would be marched, and some people would be put on top of the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">truck</span> into the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">forest</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1852">And in a <span class="ENV_FEATURES">cleared forest</span>, <span class="NPIP">cleared place</span>, you know; where we could stay...be there examined by the <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span> doctor.</sentence><sentence id="1853">That mean the doctor himself--that French doctor, you know--he would be coming.</sentence><sentence id="1854">And so we were up...I was put in a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">truck</span> and driven into that <span class="NPIP">spot</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1855">Now, some people started already as we went, says, "They not...they're not going to evacuate us.</sentence><sentence id="1856">They're taking us out of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span>, and they're going to kill us!"</sentence><sentence id="1857">They started to panic.</sentence><sentence id="1858">And many of us said, "No, no, no.</sentence><sentence id="1859">They wouldn't do that.</sentence><sentence id="1860">They could have done it there."</sentence><sentence id="1861">Some people said, "No, they couldn't done it there."</sentence><sentence id="1862">Because there was...I don't know, there was a thousand, 80,000, God knows how many thousand of...of prisoners were in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.269612" long="11.468478">Dachau</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1863">And (clearing throat) so there would be a riot.</sentence><sentence id="1864">If I know that they're going to kill me, I'm going to spring against them.</sentence><sentence id="1865">What else can I lose?</sentence><sentence id="1866">I'm dead, but at least person that we hated... We certainly didn't like the SS, and...uh...what they were doing to us.</sentence><sentence id="1867">So they said, "Doctor came, and he's going to determine."</sentence><sentence id="1868">However, there were machine guns hidden from our view, ready to fire.</sentence><sentence id="1869">And here again, they ordered prisoners to stay in <span class="DLF">line</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1870">And this time was not like five, and then five behind.</sentence><sentence id="1871">But again like the horizontal way, you know.</sentence><sentence id="1872">So that next and then next...side by side, rather than the way I explained to you.</sentence><sentence id="1873">And this doctor, he knew.</sentence><sentence id="1874">He knew.</sentence><sentence id="1875">And he says, "Shh.</sentence><sentence id="1876">Alex!"</sentence><sentence id="1877">He called me Alex. "</sentence><sentence id="1878">Alex, [Alles hundert, march! (</sentence><sentence id="1879">ph)].</sentence><sentence id="1880">Please, run!"</sentence><sentence id="1881">And I understood immediately what he's trying to tell me.</sentence><sentence id="1882">And I ran right into the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">forest</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1883">I was chanting also the Sh'ma while I was running. "</sentence><sentence id="1884">Sh'ma Israel, Adonai elohenu, Adonai echad.</sentence><sentence id="1885">"--"Hear, O Israel, the Lord is God, the Lord is One."</sentence><sentence id="1886">And I felt terrible, hot something enter my chest.</sentence><sentence id="1887">I didn't even...I didn't hear any...any shots.</sentence><sentence id="1888">I...I felt something entering my chest, that I had difficulty breathing.</sentence><sentence id="1889">And I just fell.</sentence><sentence id="1890">Now, the doctor, who was nearby--because he was also helping to form the <span class="DLF">line</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1891">He was told to help form these.</sentence><sentence id="1892">Put these prisoners in <span class="BUILDING">barracks</span> and <span class="BUILDING">barracks</span> and <span class="BUILDING">barracks</span>, you know.</sentence><sentence id="1893">One <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span> at a time, and then another <span class="BUILDING">barrack</span> would be... At any rate, he saw me fall; and he ran toward me and picked up...he...he... | was trying to get up; but he gently pushed me.</sentence><sentence id="1894">And so was an SS guard with drawn out revolver.</sentence><sentence id="1895">And he was very angry.</sentence><sentence id="1896">How did I dare run?</sentence><sentence id="1897">That means I'm tried to escape.</sentence><sentence id="1898">That's already 9 punishable by death to begin with.</sentence><sentence id="1899">Now, it's his job to kill everybody there.</sentence><sentence id="1900">So he came; but the doctor was first.</sentence><sentence id="1901">As I tried to get up, he gently pushed me and took my pulse.</sentence><sentence id="1902">And he turned...he was already knee...half, you know, kneeled on the...on the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">ground</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1903">And looked up to the SS who was aiming to my head.</sentence><sentence id="1904">He says, "No shoot.</sentence><sentence id="1905">Drei minute, kaput!"--meaning, "In three minutes, he'll be dead."</sentence><sentence id="1906">The SS saying to him... Now he was putting his revolver away; and he says, "Let's this dog suffer the three minutes!</sentence><sentence id="1907">He's not worth the cost of another bullet."</sentence><sentence id="1908">Because the officer, they had to pay...they have to pay for the bullets, the ammunition.</sentence><sentence id="1909">They have to buy, apparently--so this is what my understanding was there.</sentence><sentence id="1910">So I wasn't worth it.</sentence><sentence id="1911">Now he went back, and...and signaled for the rest of it, for the rest of the people to be killed.</sentence><sentence id="1912">When this killing was over, and they were... The French prisoners, presently, they were excepted.</sentence><sentence id="1913">Now, later on they would be killed anyway; but presently, they were excepted.</sentence><sentence id="1914">They came along, and they were the one who picked up the bodies and throw them on the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">truck</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1915">Now the same <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">truck</span> who brought me from the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span>, now it would be taking me back either to be thrown in the <span class="DLF">ditch</span> or burned...cremated.</sentence><sentence id="1916">So the French doctor told them that when they take me back to the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp,</span> take me into the <span class="BUILDING">French barrack</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1917">There was a <span class="BUILDING">French barrack</span> where only French people were.</sentence><sentence id="1918">He changed the insignia of a Jew to the Frenchman.</sentence><sentence id="1919">Now, I was going to show; but I'm not going to now.</sentence><sentence id="1920">But, however, in my violin case I always carry--I will tell you why I carry--a tweezer and a knife, a pocket knife.</sentence><sentence id="1921">But he fished out the bullet.</sentence><sentence id="1922">The doctor came into the <span class="BUILDING">French barrack</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1923">He fished out the bullet with a tweezers and pocket knife, without giving me any anesthetic.</sentence><sentence id="1924">And next day, the day after, wonderful Americans liberated <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.269612" long="11.468478">Dachau</span>."</sentence><sentence id="1925">This is how I am here to tell you about my story.</sentence><sentence id="1926">Because if it would not be for that... You see, even a day longer... By the way-- which is very little known to people--but no matter what would have happened, <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.269612" long="11.468478">Dachau</span> would have been blown up.</sentence><sentence id="1927">Because it was mined.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2021">Q: Let's...let's stay with your story.</sentence><sentence id="2022">OK?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2025">A: Yes.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2027">Q: Tell us what happened when you became conscious.</sentence><sentence id="2028">When did you become conscious?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2031">A: Okay.</sentence><sentence id="2032">First... After, of course, I got conscious, I found out that the doctors... I was taken by the Americans into a nearby <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span> in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Gauting</span>, near <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.133" long="11.567">Munich</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2033">And the doctors said no way that I can survive.</sentence><sentence id="2034">No way!</sentence><sentence id="2035">I...1 would be dying, and I'll be dead.</sentence><sentence id="2036">Because first that bullet which was removed without...without anything, you know, was already infection set...set in.</sentence><sentence id="2037">Which already I had blood poisoning from that.</sentence><sentence id="2038">Maybe there is another term to that, but this is what... I also had already--which was not known to me--I had tuberculosis.</sentence><sentence id="2039">And I also had...uh... What you call it?</sentence><sentence id="2040">Stomach...uh... Well, I...L...it escapes me.</sentence><sentence id="2041">Not <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">diphtheria</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2042">But there are other words... Plus, was all...all the...I had run down.</sentence><sentence id="2043">I was run down.</sentence><sentence id="2044">So there's no way that I...I would survive.</sentence><sentence id="2045">In fact, where occasionally I would come to myself... And that's where I'm going to mention Sari; because it happened...it happened that I was put in the very same <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span> that she also was brought in.</sentence><sentence id="2046">But she was brought in with tuberculosis, " <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.269612" long="11.468478">Dachau</span> was liberated on April 29, 1945.</sentence><sentence id="2047">0 and...and, of course, run down from uh malnutrition and hard labor.</sentence><sentence id="2048">And she also had been beaten...beaten.</sentence><sentence id="2049">Everything beatings, you know.</sentence><sentence id="2050">Was beaten several times.</sentence><sentence id="2051">But she was telling the story she heard it even before, that there was a young boy--namely me--who is dying, and my only wish was for the doctors to bring me a violin.</sentence><sentence id="2052">Occasionally, I would come to myself.</sentence><sentence id="2053">First, I was absolutely in a coma for a long time.</sentence><sentence id="2054">And when I would come ..occasionally, I'd say, "Where is my violin?"</sentence><sentence id="2055">So one day...so one day, strange as it sounds, when I came to my...myself, there I seen a violin.</sentence><sentence id="2056">And the doctor says, "Here.</sentence><sentence id="2057">There's a violin!"</sentence><sentence id="2058">And I was overwhelmed.</sentence><sentence id="2059">Now, supposedly that was a great help.</sentence><sentence id="2060">But I am sure God was the one who really helped me.</sentence><sentence id="2061">At any rate, I would be sometimes sitting up, you know, with pillows and so on, so forth.</sentence><sentence id="2062">And I would be playing; and the <span class="DLF">windows</span> would be open.</sentence><sentence id="2063">And it could be heard <span class="NPIP">outdoors</span> in the <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2064">And the patients--they were all Holocaust survivors--that they could walk, they would come and listen.</sentence><sentence id="2065">And I would be playing.</sentence><sentence id="2066">And that's what happened, that Sari asked somebody, "Who's playing?"</sentence><sentence id="2067">She...she thought it was beautiful, but I can't imagine. "</sentence><sentence id="2068">Who's playing?" "</sentence><sentence id="2069">That...that's the boy who's dying, and that was his wish."</sentence><sentence id="2070">Sari would one day--that I did not know, because I was not in myself, you know, with the relapsing back to coma.</sentence><sentence id="2071">Or comatose, or whichever it is more correct to say.</sentence><sentence id="2072">She would come in, and she was only 12 years old.</sentence><sentence id="2073">And she would come and sit next to my <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bed</span>, and would be crying.</sentence><sentence id="2074">But she knew that I was dying, so at least I had nobody.</sentence><sentence id="2075">You know?</sentence><sentence id="2076">And she had a sister and a brother.</sentence><sentence id="2077">Thank God, they still have it.</sentence><sentence id="2078">They would occasionally come to visit her; but the boy who is dying and playing the violin--to her liking, at least--uh, has nobody.</sentence><sentence id="2079">And she would be there and asking God to help me.</sentence><sentence id="2080">That's...that's really something!</sentence><sentence id="2081">But God wanted differently.</sentence><sentence id="2082">But as soon as I recup...I was better, I still lived in a <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2083">But I would enroll in <span class="BUILDING">school</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2084">First in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.133" long="11.567">Munich</span>; and from there would be uh having a scholarship by the Ford company--or the Rockefeller Foundation, forgive me.</sentence><sentence id="2085">Would uh...L...] won that scholarship among...I don't know how many, three hundred auditioners.</sentence><sentence id="2086">Uh, so then I would be going to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Salzburg</span>; and this is where I'm graduated, and have a masters degree from that <span class="BUILDING">school</span> in music.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2144">Q: How long did you stay in Europe uh before you came to the <span class="COUNTRY">United States</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2146">A: (Clearing throat) Well, we...we stood [NB: stayed] there 1950.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2148">Q: Let's back up a little bit.</sentence><sentence id="2149">You won the competition in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Salzburg</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2150">Sari, I gather, grew up.</sentence><sentence id="2151">Did you stay together?</sentence><sentence id="2152">What happened?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2158">A: Okay.</sentence><sentence id="2159">When...uh...first, of course, there...uh...the award which I got from the Rockefeller Foundation, the scholarship; and I went to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.133" long="11.567">Munich</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2160">And first I enrolled, or at least I continued, to finish uh my <span class="BUILDING">high school</span>; which...which I did.</sentence><sentence id="2161">And then I enrolled in pre-med.</sentence><sentence id="2162">And that's very interesting.</sentence><sentence id="2163">That same time, also, in the <span class="BUILDING">conservatory</span>--in the same <span class="BUILDING">building</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2164">I was in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.133" long="11.567">Munich</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2165">The same <span class="BUILDING">building</span> you could have...it was a <span class="BUILDING">conservatory</span>, and you could go to pre-med.</sentence><sentence id="2166">And one day I got...and I was living in the <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2167">A doctor, who would be about the age of my father if he would have lived, was my roommate.</sentence><sentence id="2168">They brought in a...a roommate.</sentence><sentence id="2169">And so, he's a doctor.</sentence><sentence id="2170">To myself I said, "How wonderful!</sentence><sentence id="2171">He's going to help me with my studies."</sentence><sentence id="2172">Yes, but I was meanwhile practicing.</sentence><sentence id="2173">And he said, "Why on earth would 1 you want to be a doctor when you accomplish...you look...you sound like an accomplished violinist?"</sentence><sentence id="2174">And turned out that he was actually an amateur conductor.</sentence><sentence id="2175">He was a very fine conductor, by the way, but amateur if you don't make money.</sentence><sentence id="2176">In...in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Transylvania</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2177">He was a Transylvanian.</sentence><sentence id="2178">That was what's so wonderful about it.</sentence><sentence id="2179">He spoke the language which I spoke.</sentence><sentence id="2180">And this is why I was so overwhelmed that he's going to help me--my studies, medical studies.</sentence><sentence id="2181">But no, he took me off of it.</sentence><sentence id="2182">And he says, "No,"; he says, "It's gonna take you a long time until you finish.</sentence><sentence id="2183">Then you go in a different <span class="COUNTRY">country</span>, they're going to make you take it all over again."</sentence><sentence id="2184">He says, "When you going to go into a different <span class="COUNTRY">country</span>, even if you don't finish <span class="BUILDING">school</span>, all they're going to tell you, "Pick up your violin and play."</sentence><sentence id="2185">They're not going to ask you, "Now which <span class="BUILDING">school</span> did you finish?</sentence><sentence id="2186">Which <span class="BUILDING">school</span> you have your diploma?"</sentence><sentence id="2187">They're gonna...they gonna want to hear you."</sentence><sentence id="2188">Which was right, in a way.</sentence><sentence id="2189">And sure enough, but I had a chance to finish.</sentence><sentence id="2190">Anyway, and meanwhile I went..one time I went into...when I was better--I'm talking what happened in that four or five years which we stood [NB: stayed] in <span class="COUNTRY">Germany</span>, which I was studying.</sentence><sentence id="2191">So immediately as I got strong enough, still in the <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span>, I went to where the women were.</sentence><sentence id="2192">And I was looking to see maybe my sister, my older sister, would be among them.</sentence><sentence id="2193">Because I knew then that my mother and my little sister, what happened.</sentence><sentence id="2194">But I didn't know what happened to the other.</sentence><sentence id="2195">And I met Shari, but I was just only seeing her for a second.</sentence><sentence id="2196">But when...when we sort of grew up, we just talking.</sentence><sentence id="2197">And one day that talk became a little more friendlier.</sentence><sentence id="2198">And in all honesty --and I'm gonna say that for the world, you know, to the world--that it was not the way as people accustomed today.</sentence><sentence id="2199">I have no judgement, whichever...whoever does what.</sentence><sentence id="2200">This is their business.</sentence><sentence id="2201">But however, that--call it "old fashion"--way was not that you "went together" maybe--I don't know how strongly I can say--before you get married.</sentence><sentence id="2202">You know what I mean.</sentence><sentence id="2203">And so, at any rate, she was...before she became...just before she became 17, we got married.</sentence><sentence id="2204">And soon after, we came to the <span class="COUNTRY">United States</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2205">But at that time, I was studying and so was she.</sentence><sentence id="2206">And...uh...[ had a chance to finish uh the <span class="BUILDING">Academy of Music</span> in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Salzburg</span>; which I am very, very lucky to tell you.</sentence><sentence id="2207">And then coming to the <span class="COUNTRY">United States</span> started some other problems.</sentence><sentence id="2208">And it was very, very difficult.</sentence><sentence id="2209">At first, you could not get a... I could not land a job.</sentence><sentence id="2210">In fact, I was offered a job in a <span class="BUILDING">school</span>; because I have the credentials to teach.</sentence><sentence id="2211">However, by the time I got here to the <span class="COUNTRY">United States</span>, it took so long... I was not well yet.</sentence><sentence id="2212">And uh was difficulty because even though that I recovered from tuberculosis, but <span class="COUNTRY">America</span> at that time they were very reluctant to let, even though that I was "cured."</sentence><sentence id="2213">Which I am, thank God.</sentence><sentence id="2214">But still I had to go through tests, and another test, and wait, and ___; and this kind of a thing.</sentence><sentence id="2215">So that job was gone.</sentence><sentence id="2216">And I did certain things that...when I was going to <span class="BUILDING">school</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2217">I became a filing clerk in an <span class="BUILDING">office</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2218">Then, still in part-time, I became the uh manager of the...uh... Oh, it's sort of a... How do you call that?</sentence><sentence id="2219">Uh, a <span class="BUILDING">factory</span>, which they manufactured dresses.</sentence><sentence id="2220">I had absolutely no idea about that; but I was working in the very same...same uh <span class="BUILDING">office</span> for the same people.</sentence><sentence id="2221">And I was doing so well that when... Well, from one day to the other the owner of that <span class="BUILDING">factory</span>, [his] brother-in-law left him.</sentence><sentence id="2222">They thought that I would be doing well.</sentence><sentence id="2223">And, my God, would you believe I did?</sentence><sentence id="2224">Just on part-time! (</sentence><sentence id="2225">Laughing) So finally after I got a job in the <span class="BUILDING">Cleveland symphony</span>--or a position, I should say.</sentence><sentence id="2226">Uh, then I had difficulty leaving that man; because...uh... I will tell you honestly.</sentence><sentence id="2227">It was [Lempol (ph)] Fashions.</sentence><sentence id="2228">It was a wonderful uh dress manufacture.</sentence><sentence id="2229">They're not in existence, so I can mention that.</sentence><sentence id="2230">I don't mean to...I don't mean to give any plug, you know.</sentence><sentence id="2231">But it isn't that.</sentence><sentence id="2232">They were nice people; and...uh...so 2 he...he was offering me any kind of a thing...so even in part- time.</sentence><sentence id="2233">Because my only day... Of course, we married; and a boy came to us, first child, and the second one.</sentence><sentence id="2234">We have two children, by the way.</sentence><sentence id="2235">And...uh, may I mention, Robert.</sentence><sentence id="2236">Now he's a physician.</sentence><sentence id="2237">We're very proud of him.</sentence><sentence id="2238">And so are we very proud of our daughter, Dinah, who also... She finished <span class="BUILDING">school</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2239">She has a degree in psychology.</sentence><sentence id="2240">However, she's a business lady now.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2324">Q: You have been playing the violin.</sentence><sentence id="2325">Just tell us a little bit about it.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2328">A: In Europe um I was... After, of course, liberation and I was still in <span class="BUILDING">school</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2329">But I was having offers; and I played with various symphony orchestras.</sentence><sentence id="2330">And also <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Radio Munich</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2331">And in various <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">cities</span>, almost in every one of them.</sentence><sentence id="2332">Then I gave command performances, and I'm gonna mention a few.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2338">Q: Not..not...not the whole thing, no.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2340">A: No.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2342">Q: No.</sentence><sentence id="2343">Because it's not that kind of a professional listing.</sentence><sentence id="2344">Just tell us, when you came to the <span class="COUNTRY">United States</span>...</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2348">A: Yes.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2350">Q: ..did you...?</sentence><sentence id="2351">Uh, you got a position with the Cleveland Symphony.</sentence><sentence id="2352">How long were with you them, and where did you go from there?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2356">A: I was only with three years with the Symphony.</sentence><sentence id="2357">And uh a very strange thing--not even that long, probably.</sentence><sentence id="2358">Three...after three seasons, a very strange thing uh made me quit.</sentence><sentence id="2359">One is that...you remember I mentioned earlier that I was lost in a <span class="ENV_FEATURES">forest</span>, and I was exposed to the violin by the Gypsies.</sentence><sentence id="2360">And I really loved Gypsy music from that time on.</sentence><sentence id="2361">Always!</sentence><sentence id="2362">And secretly, I would be going back to the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">forest</span> and listening to the Gypsies.</sentence><sentence id="2363">I would sometimes disappear from <span class="BUILDING">home</span>; but at the time I was already older, you know, than four years old, of course.</sentence><sentence id="2364">But 11 or 12.</sentence><sentence id="2365">And I would be asking these Gypsies to teach me some of the songs that they played that was so fantastic.</sentence><sentence id="2366">And they did.</sentence><sentence id="2367">So I learned a lot of different kind of music.</sentence><sentence id="2368">Even if I was not allowed to play.</sentence><sentence id="2369">But as I said, secretly I would be doing that.</sentence><sentence id="2370">And...uh...so...in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Cleveland</span>, as I said, certain strange circumstance got me... uh, made me to leave the symphony orchestra.</sentence><sentence id="2371">First, it was really very badly paid at those time.</sentence><sentence id="2372">And secondly, the conductor, uh Maestro [George] Szell, was very rough, so to speak.</sentence><sentence id="2373">I shouldn't say that uh openly, because there are millions of people may know him.</sentence><sentence id="2374">However, he was probably one of the greatest in the world.</sentence><sentence id="2375">And...uh...I also had a job--an offer, that is--uh, to play this kind of music and teach.</sentence><sentence id="2376"><span class="BUILDING">Teach</span>, actually.</sentence><sentence id="2377">So I left, and I got lots of pupils.</sentence><sentence id="2378">But that was very straining on me.</sentence><sentence id="2379">So finally, I got a job in a <span class="BUILDING">restaurant</span>; which was, of course, much more profitable.</sentence><sentence id="2380">And I met a lot of people and I learned lot about the way of people living in the <span class="COUNTRY">United States</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2381">Which I really loved to be here.</sentence><sentence id="2382">And uh this also made me grew up ina different way.</sentence><sentence id="2383">Because I was very, very sensitive when I came.</sentence><sentence id="2384">And probably I would be still 3 sitting in an <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">orchestra</span>.</sentence><sentence id="2385">However, I'm not sorry at all.</sentence><sentence id="2386">Because mentioning once, since you are from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Washington</span>, uh if I would be in that orchestra--like Cleveland Symphony--being just a violinist in the orchestra... Even the first violin section, but still I would never be invited to the <span class="BUILDING">White House</span>--as I was a few years ago, during the Reagan era, you know.</sentence><sentence id="2387">And that was a big thing.</sentence><sentence id="2388">Or...or go to <span class="COUNTRY">Italy</span> and give a concert; or to go to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jerusalem</span> and give a concert.</sentence><sentence id="2389">It...it's...these kind of a thing would have not occurred, because I would be still maybe a screw in a big machine, a little teeny screw.</sentence><sentence id="2390">Uh, so I'm not sorry at all that I left that <span class="NPIP">part</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2426">Q: And you have made a new life here.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2428">A: Oh, Yah.</sentence><sentence id="2429">Well, as I said, now I am... For instance, which I'm very proud to mention, I wrote several--I'm a composer also--several pieces.</sentence><sentence id="2430">And one of them which is my...probably the greatest thing that I ever written in my life entitled the "Symphony of the Holocaust."</sentence><sentence id="2431">Which I was fortunate to perform it with two major symphony orchestras, large symphony orchestras.</sentence><sentence id="2432">And uh so I just keep on writing and playing as long as God wants me to.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="2438">Q: Good.</sentence><sentence id="2439">And on that note, I think now we will end this section.</sentence><sentence id="2440">Thank you.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="2444">A: Thank you.</sentence><sentence id="2445">4 TAPE #5: PERFORMANCE The violin he plays is a Galliano (circa 1740), from the workshop of Amati (teacher of Stradivarius).(1) "Blue Danube" (Johann Strauss)--He plays this piece as he played it in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="48.269612" long="11.468478">Dachau</span>, up to the point where the SS officer stopped him.(2) "Symphony of the Holocaust" (Shony Alex Braun)--Excerpts (a) "Song of the Holocaust" (b) "The Prayer" (c) "The Liberation" (d) "Song of Commemoration" (there are several takes of this piece) (e) "Song of Joy of Life and Freedom" (3) "The Lark" (unclear on tape who wrote the version he plays here--whether this is his, or the work of a famous Romanian composer whom he mentions has inspired him)</sentence></p></dialogue>
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