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---
layout: transcript
interviewee: isaac none bitton
rg_number: rg-50.030.0027
pdf_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findingaids/rg-50.030.0027_trs_en.pdf
ushmm_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn504534
gender: m
birth_date: 1926-03-31
birth_year: 1926.0
place_of_birth: hiletia
country: portugal
experience_group: refugee,survivor
ghetto(s)_encyclopedia: none
ghetto: none
camp(s)_encyclopedia: none
camp: none
non_ss_camp: none
region: none
needs_research: none
data_entry: gg
accession: 1990.392.1
revisit: checked
tags: transcripts
---
---
layout: transcript
interviewee: isaac none bitton
rg_number: rg-50.030.0027
pdf_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/oh_findingaids/rg-50.030.0027_trs_en.pdf
ushmm_url: https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn504534
gender: m
birth_date: 1926-03-31
birth_year: 1926.0
place_of_birth: hiletia
country: portugal
experience_group: refugee,survivor
ghetto(s)_encyclopedia: none
ghetto: none
camp(s)_encyclopedia: none
camp: none
non_ss_camp: none
region: none
needs_research: none
data_entry: gg
accession: 1990.392.1
revisit: checked
tags: transcripts
---
<!DOCTYPE html>

<html lang="en">
<head>
<meta charset="utf-8"/>
<title>Document</title>
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<body><dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="1">ISAAC BITTON May 17, 1990</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="3">Q: Would you tell me your name please?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="5">A: Yes.</sentence><sentence id="6">My name is Isaac Bitton.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="9">Q: Where and when were you born?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="11">A I was born in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span>, <span class="COUNTRY">Portugal</span>, March 31st, 1926.</sentence><sentence id="12">I was born in the <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span> at <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Hiletia</span> in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="15">Q: Tell me about your family and about what it was like growing up in your family.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="17">A: My...my mother was born and raised in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Farouh</span> in the south of <span class="COUNTRY">Portugal</span>.</sentence><sentence id="18">And...uh...most of the Jewish people that came to <span class="COUNTRY">Portugal</span> towards the end of the 1700s and beginning of the 1800s...uh...settled down in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Farouh</span>.</sentence><sentence id="19">And there was a very large community lodged and relatives over 126 families within approximately 100 years.</sentence><sentence id="20">By the 1900s they all disappeared so that <span class="COUNTRY">Portugal</span>...uh...Farouh today is...there is no Jewish life.</sentence><sentence id="21">But my mother was born there.</sentence><sentence id="22">She moved to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span> with my grandparents which originally came from...uh...uh... <span class="COUNTRY">Morocco</span>, <span class="REGION">Spanish Morocco</span> and <span class="REGION">French Morocco</span>.</sentence><sentence id="23">Therefore, my name Bitton which is a French, actually a French broken name.</sentence><sentence id="24">Uh...And of course my mother was married in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span> and...uh...we were five brothers and five sisters, 5 boys and 5 girls and...uh...I attended...the uh...the...uh...the <span class="BUILDING">schools</span> in...in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span>...and...uh...the <span class="BUILDING">Jewish school</span>...was a <span class="BUILDING">private Jewish school</span>...uh...where we were taught Hebrew so we could...uh...we could read...uh...the prayer books.</sentence><sentence id="25">Because my family came from a reasonable religious...uh...family.</sentence><sentence id="26">Not orthodox, but...uh...religious.</sentence><sentence id="27">And we all had to learn Hebrew and...uh...we did so.</sentence><sentence id="28">At <span class="BUILDING">home</span> my...my grandparents, primarily my grandmother spoke some Spanish and...uh...Lidino actually, and some of the Portuguese.</sentence><sentence id="29">And...uh...basically, I...1 grew up amongst the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish community</span> which was very, very small at that time.</sentence><sentence id="30">There was not much activity amongst the Jew youth.</sentence><sentence id="31">There was actually not too many youth in...in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span>, <span class="COUNTRY">Portugal</span>.</sentence><sentence id="32">And...uh...my oldest brother had actually begun to have some girl friends, not Jewish.</sentence><sentence id="33">My father was very upset about it and...uh...as I used to go to <span class="BUILDING">school</span> to learn Hebrew by...uh...a lady that also was a Moroccan...uh...Jewish teacher, she had in her...uh...<span class="INT_SPACE">living room</span> several pictures of...uh...of...uh...of <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>, of _ <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span> at the time from the <span class="DLF">wailing wall</span> and others.</sentence><sentence id="34">And...uh...1 was always impressed by those pictures.</sentence><sentence id="35">Always!</sentence><sentence id="36">And that created in me a great desire at the time to...to go to <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>.</sentence><sentence id="37">Already from a little, early childhood.</sentence><sentence id="38">And suddenly when the opportunity knocked in 1943, then I went to <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>.</sentence><sentence id="39">But in the meantime, my Aunt Esther ____ Bitton, my father's sister, used to work at...uh...there was a <span class="INT_SPACE">Portuguese soup kitchen</span> primarily at the time used for the poor...the poor Jews of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span>.</sentence><sentence id="40">And during the second world war, obviously this <span class="INT_SPACE">kitchen</span> became very very influential in assisting the refugees to have one hot meal a day.</sentence><sentence id="41">And it was there that I really began to...uh...hang around a lot of time simply because I was...uh...I was very impressed by the various languages spoken.</sentence><sentence id="42">Uh...At the time I spoke Portuguese and a little bit of Spanish, but when you begin to hear Yiddish...lot of...lots of Yiddish...uh...lots of German...uh...Hungarian, Czech.</sentence><sentence id="43">I remember families from <span class="COUNTRY">Czechoslovakia</span>.</sentence><sentence id="44">Uh...I was always very impressed by...by these languages and...and uh...and I used to help...used to help buy...uh...the sitting....the sitting arrangement.</sentence><sentence id="45">There were probably within the dozen <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">tables</span>...uh...each <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">table</span> would care approximately hundred...10... 10...uh..._people so the <span class="INT_SPACE">dining room</span> for the refugees was within...uh...150 persons sitting capacity.</sentence><sentence id="46">And there was another small <span class="INT_SPACE">dining room</span> which was for the Portuguese...uh...the Portuguese community.</sentence><sentence id="47">And next to the <span class="INT_SPACE">kitchen</span>, <span class="INT_SPACE">soup kitchen</span> was a <span class="BUILDING">Jewish hospital</span>.</sentence><sentence id="48">I was born in a <span class="BUILDING">Jewish hospital</span>.</sentence><sentence id="49">So was my entire family.</sentence><sentence id="50">It was a very small <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span>, but nevertheless they took care of...uh...of the Jewish community.</sentence><sentence id="51">So...uh...and...uh...it was during this period in history that...uh...one day while I was at the <span class="INT_SPACE">soup kitchen</span> I hear...one family walks in...several children, father and mother...very well dressed, not dressed like a refugee as such...uh...with crumbly clothing, but really very nice and neat...uh...and L.. asked the gentleman.</sentence><sentence id="52">I said...I fact I told him, "Excuse me.</sentence><sentence id="53">This...this is for the refugees...this <span class="INT_SPACE">dining room</span>."</sentence><sentence id="54">And he said...uh..-uh... ... in Portuguese...he said, "But we too are refugees."</sentence><sentence id="55">And...uh...1 couldn't quite understand it.</sentence><sentence id="56">I was a teenager at the time, but still...uh...[ asked him, "Why is that you are refugee.</sentence><sentence id="57">You...you are Portuguese.</sentence><sentence id="58">How can you be a refugee."</sentence><sentence id="59">And...uh...he asked me to sit down.</sentence><sentence id="60">And it was then that I...I met the very famous...uh...humanitarian, Dr. - _ who told me that he was the ex-consul of <span class="COUNTRY">Portugal</span> in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Bordeaux</span>, <span class="COUNTRY">France</span>.</sentence><sentence id="61">And he went on to tell me that he had been expelled by the Portuguese government simply because he had refused...he...he was asked to refuse to give...uh...uh...visas to the...to the Jewish refugees.</sentence><sentence id="62">And...uh...as a result, of course, he was removed from his <span class="NPIP">position</span>.</sentence><sentence id="63">He was disbarred because he was a lawyer by trade also, and removed from the diplomatic corps.</sentence><sentence id="64">And...uh..I met him in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span> at the <span class="INT_SPACE">soup kitchen</span> within...I do not remember exactly if he was 4 or a half a dozen.</sentence><sentence id="65">We spoke briefly.</sentence><sentence id="66">He was there in <span class="DLF">line</span> standing with...uh...family to get his hot meal and...and to date I couldn't...I...I never got out of my mind simply that the..the men of his stature...of his caliber...uh...that had ...had really helped saved lives, was punished in such manner by being removed from...from his...doing his job.</sentence><sentence id="67">And...uh...1 was very impressed and these image always stayed with me.</sentence><sentence id="68">Uh...L...L..I don't believe I can really tell you a great deal more about Dr. because I met him such a short few times.</sentence><sentence id="69">But I remember portions of the family.</sentence><sentence id="70">And...uh...uh...I remember the...the refugees primarily more so that were there in most cases because they were the fortunate ones that had received visas by Dr. in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Bordeaux</span>, <span class="COUNTRY">France</span>.</sentence><sentence id="71">Uh...I remember a family by the name of Deutsch, father, mother and two children who...they set up a <span class="BUILDING">shop</span> in the most busy <span class="DLF">street</span> in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span> which is called the Sheadu.</sentence><sentence id="72">In fact, it was burned out recently.</sentence><sentence id="73">Was on the portions of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> that was burned...ancient part of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span>.</sentence><sentence id="74">And...uh... Mr.Deutsch used to put...uh...a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">table</span> about maybe 3 by 3 and used to sell razor blades and other little things.</sentence><sentence id="75">And I help him bring them to the <span class="REGION">areas</span>.</sentence><sentence id="76">I used to help also to bring the refugees to some...some new <span class="BUILDING">residences</span> since they were not quite familiar with <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span> and I was quite familiar with <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span>.</sentence><sentence id="77">Uh...There was another family...uh...by the name of Goostave Zumich...Zumich.</sentence><sentence id="78">He was from <span class="COUNTRY">Czechoslovakia</span>.</sentence><sentence id="79">Uh...Uh...He was a shoemaker, and he set up <span class="BUILDING">shop</span>...uh...at the <span class="INT_SPACE">soup kitchen</span>, one of the corners.</sentence><sentence id="80">And there he would repair the shoes from the refugees.</sentence><sentence id="81">And...uh...l remember Mr. Brown who was also a German Jew who...uh...was the liaison between the refugees and the Jewish...uh...Portuguese community.</sentence><sentence id="82">He was in charge of... uh...uh...helping them to...uh...go and...uh...he was the one that would ask me at times, why...why don't you show this person where such and such a <span class="DLF">street</span> is and so forth and so on.</sentence><sentence id="83">And...uh...1 remember a family by the name of, I believe Grallman, who...uh...uh...whose lady had...uh...uh... a very small little girl, a child, but she became quite ill.</sentence><sentence id="84">She was hospitalized in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span>....uh... for I believe was mental stress.</sentence><sentence id="85">And my Aunt Esther, God bless her soul, took care of her daughter for a given period of time and for as long as she was hospitalized prior to moving to <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>.</sentence><sentence id="86">Later on, since we traveled on the same <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">ship</span> to <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>...uh...the family asked me to join their own family in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Nahariyya</span> in a little <span class="DLF">farm</span>, which I did.</sentence><sentence id="87">That's how come I arrived in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Nahariyya</span>.</sentence><sentence id="88">It was through the Grallman family.</sentence><sentence id="89">And...uh...basically...uh...sometimes when I remember of the...uh...the...uh...the incidences...you know, you are a young man and...uh...up to that point in time in history, life in <span class="COUNTRY">Portugal</span> as such and <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span> was quite uneventful for a young man.</sentence><sentence id="90">And...uh...suddenly when all these refugees start to come in...uh...it was very exciting.</sentence><sentence id="91">I could not understand what they were saying in most cases, but they would...uh...they would come to this <span class="INT_SPACE">soup kitchen</span> a little before noon.</sentence><sentence id="92">If it was an hour before, and they would...in groups...you could sit them right in the...uh... the ___ and in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span> is still today a <span class="DLF">street</span> that has no end, you know.</sentence><sentence id="93">It...is two little corners like.</sentence><sentence id="94">You must turn around to come out.</sentence><sentence id="95">And...uh...they would walk around there, talking about problems, families, the anxiety, what happened to other members of the family because they did not know.</sentence><sentence id="96">They hadn't heard from them.</sentence><sentence id="97">Uh...And...uh...this to me was all very exciting and...uh...as a matter of fact, it reinforced in me even more so my wants to...to go to <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>.</sentence><sentence id="98">And...uh...it was at some point in time that we met...uh... members of...uh...the...uh...Sofnut that came from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span> to ...uh...uh...help the refugees to immigrate to <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="183">Q: Could we hold it for a second?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="185">A: Sure.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="187">Q: Can you give me a picture.</sentence><sentence id="188">We've moved fairly quickly.</sentence><sentence id="189">Give me a picture of what happened.</sentence><sentence id="190">What was <span class="COUNTRY">Portugal</span> like when the war broke out?</sentence><sentence id="191">How was it different from what had happened before?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="197">A: During the second world war?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="199">Q: Yes.</sentence><sentence id="200">When...for you.</sentence><sentence id="201">For you!</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="205">A: For me?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="207">Q: What did you see.</sentence><sentence id="208">Besides the refugees, when the war broke out, what changes did you see.</sentence><sentence id="209">What was your...was your life any different?</sentence></p></dialogue><dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="210">A: Well, since you asked...since you asked...uh...uh... (clearing throat), there was a time during the war that in the north of <span class="COUNTRY">Portugal</span>, they had found wolfrum.</sentence><sentence id="211">And that's some type of a metal.</sentence><sentence id="212">I do not know that much about it.</sentence><sentence id="213">But it's sometime of a metal that you must mix...uh... with other metals...uh...specifically for armory.</sentence><sentence id="214">And, of course...uh...that became very, very exciting all over <span class="COUNTRY">Portugal</span>.</sentence><sentence id="215">And many people just left the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> and went to the north to try to work on the <span class="DLF">wolfrum mines</span>.</sentence><sentence id="216">And, of course, being an adventurer myself...uh...me and a few friends, we decided that it was the time for us to go and dig wolfrum too.</sentence><sentence id="217">So...uh...we...we went there, but we were very...most unsuccessful.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="226">No sooner than we were there, we turned around and came back to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span> because, of course, we had no...no...no means...no...no money.</sentence><sentence id="227">And...uh...however little money we had...uh...didn't last that long, and I came back, of course...uh...very, very broken-hearted that I did not make a million escudos on the <span class="DLF">wolfrum mines</span>.</sentence><sentence id="228">But...uh...that was an exciting thing.</sentence><sentence id="229">And as much as life generally speaking in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span> at the time for as far as I can remember...uh...other than going to <span class="BUILDING">school</span> at the time, L...uh...being a member of a large family and my father, at the time...uh....God bless his soul, was working for the Portuguese printing department of the Portuguese government.</sentence><sentence id="230">And he certainly did not earn that much money either.</sentence><sentence id="231">So...uh...it was up to us...the growing up children to help the family.</sentence><sentence id="232">So, other than <span class="BUILDING">school</span>, we would pick up whatever job we could, me and my brothers.</sentence><sentence id="233">And...uh... I was involved in the dismantling, believe it or not, of World War I mines and...uh...we had a little wrench.</sentence><sentence id="234">There must have been a million bolts and nuts in these <span class="DLF">mines</span>, and we spent all day unknotting these...these things.</sentence><sentence id="235">Uh...Another job that I took was...uh...working on <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">ships</span> by derusting the ballast of the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">ships</span>.</sentence><sentence id="236">You know, if you're familiar with the ship ballasts, they're little oval holes at the bottom of the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">ship</span>, and you go in with a little swimming suit and you go with your feet and your head and your...your arms and you stay there all day with a little hammer, and all you do is knock down the rust that accumulates in these little <span class="INT_SPACE">cubicles</span>, You know, they're very small <span class="INT_SPACE">cubicles</span>.</sentence><sentence id="237">Uh... That was another part of a job.</sentence><sentence id="238">And I did other minuscule jobs and working on...uh...helping to manufacture of...uh...<span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bicycle</span>, painting, etc.</sentence><sentence id="239">And...uh...by and large, the...uh...there was an exciting period in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span>.</sentence><sentence id="240">I remember the...uh...uh...there would be a...practically every day in the newspapers some story about someone being killed.</sentence><sentence id="241">A spy or...or some activity...foreign activities...uh...in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span>.</sentence><sentence id="242">And there is another thing that I used to do with my friends.</sentence><sentence id="243">We used to go to the <span class="BUILDING">German Consulate</span>.</sentence><sentence id="244">And they had always literature.</sentence><sentence id="245">Tons of literature!</sentence><sentence id="246">They would give away propaganda about <span class="COUNTRY">Germany</span>.</sentence><sentence id="247">So we, of course, very diligently used to take as much as we could, and the moment we were out we used to toss it out in the garbage.</sentence><sentence id="248">So...uh...this was one of the things that we did...uh...for some obvious reasons...uh...actually.</sentence><sentence id="249">Another one function that I had...uh...was a neighbor of ours had a little shoe...uh...<span class="BUILDING">horse shoe shop</span>.</sentence><sentence id="250">He was a big, big man and...uh...he couldn't read or write.</sentence><sentence id="251">And...uh...he always...whenever I came back from <span class="BUILDING">school</span>, it was my function to come to him and read to him the newspaper and what was happening in the world.</sentence><sentence id="252">Because I used to like to read a lot.</sentence><sentence id="253">And...uh...and somehow or another we...we became very good friends, you know.</sentence><sentence id="254">And here was this big fellow.</sentence><sentence id="255">He couldn't read.</sentence><sentence id="256">I could never understand why he couldn't read either.</sentence><sentence id="257">But he was an older gentleman.</sentence><sentence id="258">And he was still doing the horse shoes...uh... in his <span class="BUILDING">shop</span>.</sentence><sentence id="259">Blacksmith?</sentence><sentence id="260">I don't know how you call exactly, but...uh... So, by and large...uh...other than our going every...we had to go every night to the <span class="BUILDING">temple</span> because my father...uh...my father insisted that we go to the <span class="BUILDING">temple</span> every day...every night.</sentence><sentence id="261">You cannot come <span class="BUILDING">home</span> unless you've been to the <span class="BUILDING">temple</span> to the services.</sentence><sentence id="262">And...uh...every Friday night obviously...Saturdays, we used to go to <span class="BUILDING">temple</span>.</sentence><sentence id="263">So we conducted a reasonably...uh... 1 would say a moderate Jewish life.</sentence><sentence id="264">And...uh...our <span class="BUILDING">house</span> was...was, of course...uh...kosher.</sentence><sentence id="265">My father was quite kosher.</sentence><sentence id="266">And ...uh...we had a very large family, as I said...uh...uh... five boys and five girls.</sentence><sentence id="267">Although two of them were born...I...one girl... my youngest sister, Rachel, was born after I left <span class="COUNTRY">Portugal</span>.</sentence><sentence id="268">And I did not meet her until 17... when she was 17.</sentence><sentence id="269">And my brother, Jacob, was...uh... few months old when I left for...for __, <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>.</sentence><sentence id="270">So...</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="316">Q: Did you feel...how did you feel being a Jew in <span class="COUNTRY">Portugal</span> once the war...once the war had broken out?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="318">A: My only memories in this case is...uh...I didn't feel any...uh...truthfully...from the part of the Portuguese, I had no...no feelings that there were anti-Semitic or anti-Jewish or anything like that.</sentence><sentence id="319">Never had that feeling while I was in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span>.</sentence><sentence id="320">That's the truth.</sentence><sentence id="321">Uh...But..-uh...by being in...uh...on a...almost on a daily basis, mixed with the Jewish refugees for a given period of time, that in itself inspired in me more so the desire really to go to <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>.</sentence><sentence id="322">Number one, to go to <span class="COUNTRY">Palestine</span> and to join the British Army, and go and fight the Nazis, which I did as a matter of fact.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="328">Q: Tell us about that.</sentence><sentence id="329">You started to say...you had started to tell us about the Sofnut.</sentence><sentence id="330">Tell us about the refugees and _Sofnut.</sentence><sentence id="331">What happened?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="336">A: Certainly.</sentence><sentence id="337">Well, once we...uh..we...uh...we left <span class="COUNTRY">Portugal</span>, our first stop was...</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="340">Q: Excuse me.</sentence><sentence id="341">We have to back up.</sentence><sentence id="342">If you would please, tell us why...you were now in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="346">A: Yes.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="348">Q: And the Sofnut came to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="350">A: Right.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="352">Q: Tell us what they did and tell us what you did.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="354">A: Well, basically, the...uh...uh...as far as I can remember, they came in to...uh...help number one, to bring all the children...refugees children primarily were the number one to go on..uh...on the registration to go to <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>.</sentence><sentence id="355">And then came grown-ups.</sentence><sentence id="356">So families with children, of course, were the first ones.</sentence><sentence id="357">And they asked the Jewish community also if there were any members of the Jewish community in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span> that wished to immigrate to...uh...to ..to __, <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>.</sentence><sentence id="358">And I...1 and my brother were the first ones to...uh...join.</sentence><sentence id="359">Uh...In fact...uh...I must say that my father at the time did not like the idea that we were going to leave <span class="COUNTRY">Portugal</span>.</sentence><sentence id="360">But I told him that I wanted to go to <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>.</sentence><sentence id="361">There was no Jewish life in <span class="COUNTRY">Portugal</span>, no Jewish youth.</sentence><sentence id="362">There was no girlfriends.</sentence><sentence id="363">At 16 a young man wants to have a girlfriend.</sentence><sentence id="364">And...uh...there was no such thing.</sentence><sentence id="365">And...uh...there were...there were, of course, many girls, but not...not Jewish.</sentence><sentence id="366">And...uh...L...L..I had very, very strong...uh...will that I wanted to marry within the Jewish faith and have Jewish children as well, and continue my Jewish life.</sentence><sentence id="367">That was really something that I always had since childhood.</sentence><sentence id="368">And I think as I mentioned before, I was very much impressed by the...uh...photographs from the...from __.,,</sentence><sentence id="369"><span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>, the <span class="DLF">wailing wall</span>, etc.</sentence><sentence id="370">And Musrabano and other pictures that the teacher had on the <span class="DLF">wall</span>.</sentence><sentence id="371">So we then registered with the government of <span class="COUNTRY">Portugal</span>.</sentence><sentence id="372">We had to pay some fees to...uh...so that we wouldn't have to go to the military, etc.,</sentence><sentence id="373">and...uh...we left for <span class="COUNTRY">Palestine</span>.</sentence><sentence id="374">I do not remember the exact date, sometimes end of 43 aboard the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">ship</span> Niasa...was a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">steamship</span>, a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">Portuguese steamship</span>.</sentence><sentence id="375">And...uh...there was several hundred children and adults, refugees.</sentence><sentence id="376">And...uh...our first stop was about a day...within a day, we stopped in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Cadiz</span>, <span class="COUNTRY">Spain</span>.</sentence><sentence id="377">In <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Cadiz</span>, <span class="COUNTRY">Spain</span>, the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">ship</span> picked up several hundred Jewish children again.</sentence><sentence id="378">And it was there that I met...uh...a fellow from the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish community</span> in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span>.</sentence><sentence id="379">His name was ______ who with his brother, Samuel, were in charge of the...uh...uh...uh... removal of Jewish children from the border of <span class="COUNTRY">France</span> into <span class="COUNTRY">Spain</span> into <span class="COUNTRY">Portugal</span> and into <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>.</sentence><sentence id="380">Uh...Again...uh... knew very well...uh..Dr.because apparently there were visas some received from this gentleman through .Okay?</sentence><sentence id="381">So that was the last time that I saw alive.</sentence><sentence id="382">He and his brother worked for the Jewish community of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span> in conjunction with the American Joint Committee to save the Jewish children.</sentence><sentence id="383">So...uh...we (clearing throat) we went to...uh...we...uh...went to <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span> or to <span class="COUNTRY">Palestine</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="416">Q: Excuse me.</sentence><sentence id="417">Tell me about the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">ship</span>.</sentence><sentence id="418">I would like to know what it was like for you on the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">ship</span> with the refugee children and what you did.</sentence><sentence id="419">What effect it had and there was an incident that you had told me about.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="424">A: Right.</sentence><sentence id="425">It was...I cannot remember the names of this young man, but...uh...uh...as a matter of fact in my life, I was directly and indirectly involved in saving five lives.</sentence><sentence id="426">But he was aboard the Niasa, that...uh...the first thing that happened was...the Niasa had to take a large deviation because of the second world war as it was in...at that point in time quite active, there was...the...the specifically, the German...uh...uh...<span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">U-Submarines</span> were in the Mediterranean and as a result, we had to... only remember that we were advised that the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">ship</span> would have to make a deviation because of Germany submarine activity.</sentence><sentence id="427">Uh...Although we...we...ourselves did not see any <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">submarines</span>.</sentence><sentence id="428">But we did pick up a time when there was very, very rough <span class="ENV_FEATURES">seas</span>.</sentence><sentence id="429">And people, of course, were feeling not quite well, and everybody was running up to...to the top even though they were not...you were advised not to because it was reasonably dangerous.</sentence><sentence id="430">So I was going up to the <span class="INT_SPACE">deck</span> and...uh...a young child I would say within 10 to 12 years old also was in a hurry apparently to relieve himself and...uh...he was caught by a wave.</sentence><sentence id="431">And...uh...don't ask me how.</sentence><sentence id="432">I only know that I dove to this child and I was able to grab him while I was grabbing myself also to the <span class="DLF">rails</span>.</sentence><sentence id="433">And meantime his mother was very...uh...excited and she called the father which was a little further below the <span class="DLF">steps</span>.</sentence><sentence id="434">And...uh...he came in a hurry too and to help me, and we brought, you know.</sentence><sentence id="435">This...This takes a few seconds because here comes the wave and...and...and just came through the <span class="INT_SPACE">deck</span> and there he was.</sentence><sentence id="436">And I grabbed him and so we came down there and there was no water any more or anything.</sentence><sentence id="437">And the father....I will never forget it.</sentence><sentence id="438">Uh...He jumped at my feet, and he wanted to kiss my feet because I saved...I saved his child.</sentence><sentence id="439">Now, you know, it's one of these things.</sentence><sentence id="440">You know, he could...maybe he would never gone overboard, but he could have gone overboard as well.</sentence><sentence id="441">So...uh...I do not remember their names.</sentence><sentence id="442">I do not know...once we landed in <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>, I don't know whatever happened to them because they went in different directions and...uh...uh... But nevertheless, life on board <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">ship</span> for the approximately | week that we spent that normally would take within 3 to 4 days, but it took a little longer because of that...those deviations that...uh...the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">ship</span> had to make in the Mediterranean...Mediterranean.</sentence><sentence id="443">But we...uh...landed in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Haifa</span>.</sentence><sentence id="444">Life was not that exciting on board.</sentence><sentence id="445">You know, it...uh...people would sit again in corners talking about what happened, wishing, willing, what happened to the families, etc.</sentence><sentence id="446">in...uh...in...uh...in...uh...Also, sort of type of permanent...permanent...uh...anxiety.</sentence><sentence id="447">That's the only way I can describe it, you know.</sentence><sentence id="448">There was I would say...uh...many sighs of relief when...when the word <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>, the land of <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>.</sentence><sentence id="449">I remember that when all of a sudden they say <span class="REGION">land</span>, <span class="REGION">land</span>, <span class="REGION">land</span>.</sentence><sentence id="450">And there was <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Haifa</span> __ <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>.</sentence><sentence id="451">That was a word that was very, very striking to everybody.</sentence><sentence id="452">Because everybody...all you hear at that time was <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>, <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>, and I could not understand what they were talking about.</sentence><sentence id="453">It was Polish or Yiddish or German.</sentence><sentence id="454">But you could hear all the time <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>, the word <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>.</sentence><sentence id="455">That I remember.</sentence><sentence id="456">We were unloaded into a...uh...<span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">buses</span> and immediately brought to...uh...it was some sort, if you wish, of a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">concentration camp</span> in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Atleit</span>.</sentence><sentence id="457">I don't know within 10 to 15 miles from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Haifa</span>, south of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Haifa</span>.</sentence><sentence id="458">And...uh...I asked, "What are we doing in here?"</sentence><sentence id="459">It's like a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">concentration camp</span>.</sentence><sentence id="460"><span class="DLF">Barbed wire</span> with security police everywhere...uh...Arabs, Jews, British.</sentence><sentence id="461">And...uh...the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span> was divided into two sections for...one for men and one for women.</sentence><sentence id="462">And later on we found out that...uh...because or due to strong activity from the Fifth Column...the German Fifth Column they had to do a series of interviews and they asked everyone and they checked the papers, etc.</sentence><sentence id="463">So we stayed in that <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Atleit</span> within...uh...a couple of weeks.</sentence><sentence id="464">The conditions were not the best, but they were fair.</sentence><sentence id="465">The Sofnut was there to help us.</sentence><sentence id="466">And...uh...from there on, most of us were moved to a little...uh...a little <span class="INT_SPACE">quarters</span> outside <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Haifa</span> by the name of .</sentence><sentence id="467">And there was worse because the conditions there were...everybody was mixed, men, women, children.</sentence><sentence id="468">There was no <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">beds</span>.</sentence><sentence id="469">We...uh...they didn't expect apparently that large number of people at the time and they were not prepared.</sentence><sentence id="470">And...uh...as a result we slept for a few days on...on the <span class="INT_SPACE">floor</span> with blankets, etc.</sentence><sentence id="471">Then...uh...the...the youth were moved to a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span> in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Carmel</span> in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Haifa</span>, the .</sentence><sentence id="472">And it was there that...uh...] had the great privilege and the honor of meeting the great lady of the Youth Alijah Movement, Henrietta Solt.</sentence><sentence id="473">And she was a lovely lady, God bless her soul, who...uh... I talked to her personally too.</sentence><sentence id="474">She talked to each one of us, welcoming us to ___ <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>.</sentence><sentence id="475">And...uh...some of us we were already above desirable age to stay in the Youth...with the Youth Movement.</sentence><sentence id="476">And I was one of them.</sentence><sentence id="477">So I then was moved from the to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Kibbutz BitAlfa</span>.</sentence><sentence id="478">And here I must say that...uh...I could not get used to life in a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">kibbutz</span>.</sentence><sentence id="479">I just couldn't.</sentence><sentence id="480">Uh... was too...uh...you know, full of action, you know.</sentence><sentence id="481">And...uh...I wanted to join the British Army.</sentence><sentence id="482">I wanted to join the war, not...I didn't come over here to be in a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">kibbutz</span>, you know.</sentence><sentence id="483">So my brother, Abraham, stayed in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">kibbutz</span> and my cousin, , God bless him.</sentence><sentence id="484">He also passed away in <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>.</sentence><sentence id="485">Uh... They...they stayed in there.</sentence><sentence id="486">And...uh...I went to...uh...to join the British Army in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Haifa</span>, the <span class="BUILDING">British Joint Office</span>.</sentence><sentence id="487">Uh...Once I filled all the papers, I was advised that because when they asked me for my papers, I gave them my Portuguese passport that I arrived legally.</sentence><sentence id="488">So I was advised by the...by the lieutenant in charge...he said, "I'm sorry, Sir.</sentence><sentence id="489">You can't join the British army.</sentence><sentence id="490"><span class="COUNTRY">Portugal</span> is a neutral country."</sentence><sentence id="491">So I said, "Okay."</sentence><sentence id="492">I left and I joined the...at the time was in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Haifa</span> talking to some other friends in there, I joined the PPRD, the Palestine Police Railroad Division.</sentence><sentence id="493">And this time my cousin also joined.</sentence><sentence id="494">He came back from the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">kibbutz</span> also.</sentence><sentence id="495">He couldn't manage there.</sentence><sentence id="496">And...uh...so we both joined the PPRD.</sentence><sentence id="497">But I did not like the PPRD, the Palestine Police Railroad DIvision.</sentence><sentence id="498">What we did was simply night guards.</sentence><sentence id="499">We had to be with the rifle or the carbine by the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">railroad</span> or be escort to the British...uh...payroll, etc.</sentence><sentence id="500">And it was not what I wanted.</sentence><sentence id="501">I wanted to go to war.</sentence><sentence id="502">That was my main thing.</sentence><sentence id="503">So I decided to...uh...go to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sarafan</span>, which was the largest British joint group...army...uh...camp. (</sentence><sentence id="504">clearing throat) And again I fill out the papers and...uh...when I was asked for my...uh...uh...papers...how did I came to <span class="COUNTRY">Palestine</span>, I said, "I haven't got any papers."</sentence><sentence id="505">How did you come in? "</sentence><sentence id="506">I'm an illegal."</sentence><sentence id="507">And I wrote in this time in my...in my...my papers that I was born in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="42.697639" long="23.322278">Sofia</span>, <span class="COUNTRY">Bulgaria</span>.</sentence><sentence id="508">As a native of <span class="COUNTRY">Bulgaria</span>, of course...uh...<span class="COUNTRY">Bulgaria</span> was at war too, so was no longer neutral (clearing throat) and...uh...speaking to some other friends...uh...we realized, of course, that the British they speak English.</sentence><sentence id="509">And not once was I asked about if I speak Bulgarian.</sentence><sentence id="510">Which I don't!</sentence><sentence id="511">But...uh...so...it was in this manner that I was able to join the...the British army.</sentence><sentence id="512">So we spent some time in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sarafan</span>...the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp,</span> and then we were moved to the Jewish Brigade group...uh...<span class="POPULATED_PLACE">training camp</span> in...uh....Ismailia in <span class="COUNTRY">Egypt</span>.</sentence><sentence id="513">We were part of the ITD...the <span class="BUILDING">Infantry Training Depot</span>.</sentence><sentence id="514">And, of course, we were trained by British...uh... officers and also by...uh...Jewish officers.</sentence><sentence id="515">So we spent several months in training in infantry accelerated training because at the time the British army...the Jewish Brigade group because they wanted us to have a very fast training.</sentence><sentence id="516">The Jewish Brigade group had seen some action in the front in <span class="COUNTRY">Italy</span> at the time.</sentence><sentence id="517">And...uh...of course, I never saw any action in the front.</sentence><sentence id="518">The end of the war came while I...we were still in <span class="COUNTRY">Egypt</span>.</sentence><sentence id="519">So...uh...we were then moved to Europe.</sentence><sentence id="520">We left <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Alexandria</span> aboard a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">British troop carrier</span>, <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Escanya</span>, if | remember right, and from there, of course, we were designated to the different...uh...Jewish Brigade...uh...unit.</sentence><sentence id="521">I was assigned to the second battalion of the Jewish Brigade group.</sentence><sentence id="522">And shortly thereafter, I was transferred to the corps of military police of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish Brigade</span>. (</sentence><sentence id="523">clearing throat) And we saw duties in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Antwerp</span>.</sentence><sentence id="524">We had our main <span class="BUILDING">station</span> in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Antwerp</span> in <span class="COUNTRY">Belgium</span>.</sentence><sentence id="525">And it was there that...uh...I really had some first impact with dispersed persons that...people that came from the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camps</span>.</sentence><sentence id="526">Not the refugees that were able...that were fortunate to run away and arrive in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span> somehow in a reason...reasonably healthy manner.</sentence><sentence id="527">I'm talking about a dispersed person that survived the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camps</span>.</sentence><sentence id="528">They came out.</sentence><sentence id="529">They were skin and bones.</sentence><sentence id="530">Okay?</sentence><sentence id="531">And...uh...as a member of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish Brigade</span>, our uniforms were part of the British...uh...uniforms.</sentence><sentence id="532">The only difference was that we had our patches and we had the Star of David in gold with...uh...two whites and...uh...uh...blue...uh...stripes and...uh...it was in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Antwerp</span> and we used to do a lot of duty at...uh...<span class="BUILDING">train station</span> that the group of dispersed persons came in.</sentence><sentence id="533">They came out of the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span>, and I don't know if they came from <span class="COUNTRY">Germany</span> or from where they came from, but...uh...it was several of us...MPs, military police....and when they saw the Star of David, there was one of the most __ things I ever experienced in my life.</sentence><sentence id="534">They came to you, and they kissed the Star of David.</sentence><sentence id="535">And they was saying in Yiddish, _.. They didn't believe that.</sentence><sentence id="536">And it was very, very touching.</sentence><sentence id="537">So I spent some time in...uh...in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Antwerp</span>, and...uh...then we went to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="51.455335" long="5.380428">Eindhoven</span> in <span class="COUNTRY">Holland</span> to a...uh...R and R camp.</sentence><sentence id="538">We spent some time there.</sentence><sentence id="539">And...uh...of course, this is after the war.</sentence><sentence id="540">Uh...And...uh...the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish Brigade</span> at the time was not doing much of anything officially.</sentence><sentence id="541">Unofficially, the Jewish Brigade group or part of it or portion of it were very, very...uh...diligently working in moving...uh...dispersed persons from one <span class="NPIP">place</span> to another <span class="NPIP">place</span>.</sentence><sentence id="542">It reminds, perhaps, of the story of...uh...the Jewish Brigade group was like a duck that...uh...you only see the smooth sailing on...on above the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">water</span>, but below water they peddle like <span class="NPIP">Hell</span> so to speak.</sentence><sentence id="543">And that's what was happening.</sentence><sentence id="544">The...uh...the Jewish Brigade group...uh...I'm assuming in conjunction with the Haganah and...uh...the Aliyah Bet and I'm sure you know the meaning of Alijah Bet.</sentence><sentence id="545">Uh...There was the convention immigration and the unconvention immigration.</sentence><sentence id="546">And the unconvention immigration was what we call today or we called then Alijah Bet.</sentence><sentence id="547">Uh...so that it would be distinguished from the convention immigration.</sentence><sentence id="548">Because the British mandate, at the time, in <span class="COUNTRY">Palestine</span> did not wish...did not want to allow any more Jews to come to <span class="COUNTRY">Palestine</span> on a variety of grounds that they believed in.</sentence><sentence id="549">But...uh...but, of course, the Jewish agency believed in...in otherwise.</sentence><sentence id="550">And the Jewish agency, of course, had other ideas.</sentence><sentence id="551">And as a result, the Alijah Bet was created.</sentence><sentence id="552">So...uh...there were many a times that...uh...in our <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span>, for instance, there was a time that over night there was several...uh...several...uh...tents that overnight had been erected in our...in...inside the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span>.</sentence><sentence id="553">So for anyone on the <span class="NPIP">outside</span> looking at...at the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">army camp</span>, another half a dozen <span class="BUILDING">tents</span> wouldn't mean much of anything.</sentence><sentence id="554">Uh...Certainly, we were advised at the time that, you know, leave them along so to speak.</sentence><sentence id="555">They are dispersed persons in these <span class="BUILDING">tents</span>.</sentence><sentence id="556">The reason is, of course, that the British mandate at the time...the British government...uh...with the assistance of the...uh...their various intelligence units...with the assistance of the British Royal Air Force, the British Navy, they had a blockade of <span class="COUNTRY">Palestine</span> not to allow any Jews to enter.</sentence><sentence id="557">And...uh...the Jewish Agency had no choice, but to try to evade their...their investigations.</sentence><sentence id="558">Where are the Jews coming from?</sentence><sentence id="559">Where are they being loaded?</sentence><sentence id="560">On what <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">ships</span>, etc.,</sentence><sentence id="561">etc.?</sentence><sentence id="562">What <span class="DLF">ports</span>, etc.,</sentence><sentence id="563">etc.?</sentence><sentence id="564">So...uh...that's when the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish Brigade</span> was of much help by using the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">military vehicles</span> in transporting the refugees from one <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> to another <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span> or if it's from another <span class="COUNTRY">country</span>, from...if it's from...from <span class="COUNTRY">Holland</span> to <span class="COUNTRY">Belgium</span> or to <span class="COUNTRY">Italy</span> or...or <span class="COUNTRY">France</span>, etc.</sentence><sentence id="565">So this involvement actually was...uh...ultimately was found out somehow, and the British government, of course, dismissed the entire <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish Brigade</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="710">Q: Were you involved in any of this?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="712">A: No.</sentence><sentence id="713">I...I was not directly involved.</sentence><sentence id="714">No.</sentence><sentence id="715">Not at all.</sentence><sentence id="716">No.</sentence><sentence id="717">I was only by...by virtue of being...of serving with the Corps of Military Police of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish Brigade</span>.</sentence><sentence id="718">I do know that...uh...there was...uh...every...every <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">vehicle</span>...<span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">army vehicle</span> had a log.</sentence><sentence id="719">And in this log, 0 of course, you have to write the moment you leave your <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">camp</span>, where you going, who is for, dut dut dut da.</sentence><sentence id="720">So...uh...they used to..to write in their logs when they were moving refugees three letters in English.</sentence><sentence id="721">T-T-G. And actually the meaning...uh...is...uh... Hebrew, Arabic, and Yiddish, which means .</sentence><sentence id="722">Which means if...if you pardon me, up your rear end business.</sentence><sentence id="723">That's what it meant.</sentence><sentence id="724">The reason that they wrote TTG on their...on their...on these log sheets was when and if they would be stopped by some of the Allied...uh... policemen on the frontiers, etc...uh...when the read, if it's British police and they read TTG on it, that sounds...even though it's a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">Jewish Brigade convoy</span>...20 <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">convoys</span> or 30 <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">vehicles</span>, etc...uh...they're not going in to see what's <span class="NPIP">inside</span>.</sentence><sentence id="725">Fortunately, for us, they wouldn't because if they would have lift the...the <span class="DLF">gate</span>, so to speak, you'll see that there was women, children, refugees being moved around.</sentence><sentence id="726">From one <span class="DLF">port</span> to another <span class="DLF">port</span>, etc.</sentence><sentence id="727">So this <span class="NPIP">part</span> was very exciting.</sentence><sentence id="728">I knew it about it.</sentence><sentence id="729">I was not involved directly with this.</sentence><sentence id="730">Uh...I was indirectly involved because, for instance, after spending some time in Europe in the British Army in the Jewish Brigade group, you are entitled to a <span class="BUILDING">vacation home</span>.</sentence><sentence id="731">So an Isaac Bitton, in fact, went <span class="BUILDING">home</span> on vacation.</sentence><sentence id="732">But the real Isaac Bitton never left, simply because the...uh...again...the...the Jewish agency had trained younger men, refugees to be able...how to hold...uh...the _____ the way the British army does or way the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish Brigade</span> does.</sentence><sentence id="733">How to eat, etc.</sentence><sentence id="734">etc.</sentence><sentence id="735">Uh...Some Hebrews words in the event they would be questioned, but otherwise they went <span class="BUILDING">home</span> on vacation.</sentence><sentence id="736">They never came back.</sentence><sentence id="737">They stayed there.</sentence><sentence id="738">But Isaac never left, say <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Antwerp</span>, either.</sentence><sentence id="739">And then suddenly Ike is back from vacation.</sentence><sentence id="740">You understand?</sentence><sentence id="741">And...and the other Isaac stayed in <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>.</sentence><sentence id="742">So in this manner, many refugees also arrived in <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span> with..-uh...with false...uh...army...uh...army papers, army documents.</sentence><sentence id="743">So that's the only time that I was, if you wish, indirectly involved with the Alivah Bet.</sentence><sentence id="744">Uh...of course, the end of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish Brigade</span> came about 1946.</sentence><sentence id="745">We were dismissed.</sentence><sentence id="746">And we went back.</sentence><sentence id="747">And it was prior to living in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Antwerp</span> and that one evening L...uh...I took a...uh...an <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">electrical train</span> in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">city</span> and to my great surprise, there was Brigadeer Benjamin.</sentence><sentence id="748">Brigadeer Benjamin was a....was a British Jew who was commanding the Jewish Brigade group.</sentence><sentence id="749">And it appears that he had never been informed officially of the underground activities that the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish Brigade</span> was doing at the time in Europe.</sentence><sentence id="750">And as a result he...uh...he was just totally demoralized if you wish, prior to the...to the...when we all left...the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jewish Brigade</span> left Europe.</sentence><sentence id="751">And Benjamin would be just...1 saw him more than one occasion walking around in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">town</span>.</sentence><sentence id="752">But I met him personally in the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">electrical train</span>.</sentence><sentence id="753">I had to salute, of course.</sentence><sentence id="754">He was a Brigadeer General and...uh...but we didn't speak.</sentence><sentence id="755">He was a very, very reserved man at that time.</sentence><sentence id="756">So I do not know from there on...uh...I never heard that he went to visit <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span> or even if he ever went to <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>, but he was very upset about the whole thing.</sentence><sentence id="757">Uh...But the meantime...the main...the main...the main point was to save and bring as many Jews to <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span> as possible.</sentence><sentence id="758">And that was something that the Haganah did...uh...the Alijat Bet did very well.</sentence><sentence id="759">And...uh...so we were disbanded, discharged pretty much.</sentence><sentence id="760">We went to <span class="COUNTRY">Egypt</span> again, and from <span class="COUNTRY">Egypt</span> we were...we stayed in some camps for a short period of time and we went to...we were discharged in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Sarafan</span> also officially and...uh...received our civil...civilian garments and little bit pay, etc.,</sentence><sentence id="761">and we were free men again, so to speak.</sentence><sentence id="762">Out of the...out of the Army.</sentence><sentence id="763">Out in the <span class="DLF">streets</span>.</sentence><sentence id="764">And...uh...immediately, when I went back in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Nahariyya</span>, of course, we joined the...all of us joined the Haganah underground 1 because the word at the time was that...uh...things did not go that good for...in <span class="COUNTRY">Palestine</span>.</sentence><sentence id="765">The...uh... (clearing throat)...when it came to...was the beginning of the...uh...the problems...the...uh...the...the war, of course, if you did not travel in a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">convoy</span>, then the chances of going from a <span class="NPIP">place</span> A to <span class="NPIP">place</span> B alive was...was very difficult.</sentence><sentence id="766">And...and it was here that I came quite involved in the...in the <span class="INT_SPACE">underground</span>...in the Haganah between...uh... primarily between <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Haifa</span> and <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Nahariyya</span> and the <span class="REGION">Western Galilee</span>.</sentence><sentence id="767">We used to meet <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">convoys</span> going south in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Shavatsion</span>, a few kilometers south of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Nahariyya</span> and....uh...and take as many <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">cars</span> as possible and...uh...in each one of the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">vehicles</span> was at least one person, one member of the Haganah which was armed.</sentence><sentence id="768">Now if it was a girl...it was many of the girls that...that were also armed or if it was a boy...either if he were sitting on top of the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">truck</span> or in the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bus</span> or in the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">car</span> or in a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">motorcycle</span>, etc....uh...that was a safe way for us to travel at the time.</sentence><sentence id="769">And coming back in the late afternoon...early evening during the daylight, we would...uh...we would all congregate in the .,</sentence><sentence id="770">you know, next to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Haifa</span>, and because between and <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Haifa</span> was reasonably safe with the exception of the <span class="BUILDING">refineries</span> in which...uh...there was a very, very...uh... very serious incident.</sentence><sentence id="771">Uh...One time...uh...the...at lunch time, a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">car</span> went by and while all the Arabs and even some Jews that used to work in the <span class="BUILDING">refineries</span> were sitting <span class="NPIP">outside</span> having lunch, somebody threw some bombs.</sentence><sentence id="772">Uh...As far as I can understand...uh...of course, the Arabs blamed the Jews.</sentence><sentence id="773">The Jews blamed the British.</sentence><sentence id="774">And...uh... the facts remains is that the Arabs were so angry...uh...at this attack that the massacred every Jew that worked with them.</sentence><sentence id="775">For years, they used to work together.</sentence><sentence id="776">For years and years!</sentence><sentence id="777">No matter how...all of a sudden, bingo.</sentence><sentence id="778">I don't think there was...if there was a half dozen Jews that came out of alive of the...<span class="BUILDING">Haifa refineries</span>.</sentence><sentence id="779">They were all massacred.</sentence><sentence id="780">And on the same evening, the PALMA by orders of the high command of the Haganah took action, only with cold arms, no hot arms...they went into the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Arabic village</span> right outside <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Haifa</span>...uh...where most of these Arabs came from, and they...they really fortunately enough...there was no men on that evening in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">village</span>.</sentence><sentence id="781">They all had escaped because they knew that...that...uh...the Haganah was after them.</sentence><sentence id="782">I do not know exactly what...what happened after that, but the...the fact remains that it was a very...at the beginning of the war...the war...this...of the problems.</sentence><sentence id="783">SO we...we used to congregate in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Keathim</span>, and from there on again we used to travel all together to...uh...to..-uh...Nahariyya.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="856">Q: Excuse me.</sentence><sentence id="857">Did you see the results of any of this <span class="BUILDING">PALMA</span> or the fighting?</sentence><sentence id="858">You were not there?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="862">A: No.</sentence><sentence id="863">No.</sentence><sentence id="864">You mean at the...uh...at the...uh...the <span class="BUILDING">refineries</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="868">Q:</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="870">A: No.</sentence><sentence id="871">No.</sentence><sentence id="872">No.</sentence><sentence id="873">But I tell you one time...on two different occasions, I arrived late to the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">convoy</span>, and I lost the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">convoy</span>.</sentence><sentence id="874">Once was going south.</sentence><sentence id="875">And I was alone.</sentence><sentence id="876">No...I beg your pardon.</sentence><sentence id="877">I was...I was alone, and then I picked up a fellow who was a mechanic, Heim Yenkel, was his name...was a mechanic in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Nahariyya</span>.</sentence><sentence id="878">And he sat next to me, and we worked to the city of Akko, but he was uneventful.</sentence><sentence id="879">There was no problem.</sentence><sentence id="880">However, on 2 another occasion coming back when...when just shortly before the war really started and things were getting a little tougher...uh...several people had been killed in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Akko</span>...that...one by a...in a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">motorcycle</span>.</sentence><sentence id="881">They tried to cross <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Akko</span> alone, so to speak, by <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">car</span>, by <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bicycle</span>, and they never made it.</sentence><sentence id="882">So one time I arrived...uh...a little late, and my wife, at the time, was pregnant and I...1...I had to go, get <span class="BUILDING">home</span>.</sentence><sentence id="883">And...uh...certainly, I always had a gun with me, a 45 pistol liberata, Italian hand gun.</sentence><sentence id="884">But...uh...since I was driving at the time a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">Volvo</span>...it was an old <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">truck</span>, and I had on...on my <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">truck</span> I had...uh...flour for the <span class="BUILDING">bakery</span>, and a variety of other products.</sentence><sentence id="885">So I took my Arabic...uh...head dress which I used to carry with me because since I'm quite dark featured, I could pass very easily as an Arab.</sentence><sentence id="886">I put my head Cafia on and...uh...when I arrived at the <span class="DLF">gates</span>, they had this...we called this Spanish donkeys...is barbed wire on...uh...cross...uh...horses you know.</sentence><sentence id="887">And we used to call it Spanish donkeys.</sentence><sentence id="888">And...uh...when I came to the city of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Akko</span>, the <span class="DLF">entrance</span> to this...to this <span class="DLF">gate</span>, I just put my head of the...my <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">cab</span>, and I shouted in Arabic, " ." "</sentence><sentence id="889">Open the <span class="DLF">gate</span>.</sentence><sentence id="890">Open the <span class="DLF">gate</span>."</sentence><sentence id="891">And the...the guy looked at me and opened the <span class="DLF">gate</span> and I just kept on going, and I was never stopped.</sentence><sentence id="892">But...uh...you can do these things when you are 20-some. (</sentence><sentence id="893">Laughing) Today, probably I wouldn't do that.</sentence><sentence id="894">Uh...I was very fortunate too, but...uh...then, of course, the...uh...the war began pretty much very quickly, and...uh...I was...uh...with the....] was with the Fish in the Haganah, and then I became...uh...Sergeant Major in the Israeli army, and I was pretty much stationed in the <span class="REGION">western Gaililee</span>, in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Nahariyya</span> and in north.</sentence><sentence id="895">But at the beginning of the war, something that sometimes people wonder, "How did you do it.</sentence><sentence id="896">How...How did <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span> deceive them."</sentence><sentence id="897">Now, you are attached by so many armies surrounding you, and how did you do it?</sentence><sentence id="898">One of the things that we did, we excavated <span class="DLF">roads</span> between <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Nahariyya</span> and...and...uh...frontier of <span class="COUNTRY">Lebanon</span>, which was about 7...5, 7 kilometers north of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Nahariyya</span>, and...uh...we excavated in a zigzag for miles up to the <span class="DLF">road</span> where was the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Kibbutz Hineta</span>, so that one evening, by command of the Haganah, we took every <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">car</span>, every <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bus</span>, every <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">motorcycle</span> we had.</sentence><sentence id="899">Now there was no arms at the time other...other than the <span class="BUILDING">Haganah</span> itself.</sentence><sentence id="900">There was no army at the time.</sentence><sentence id="901">That was before the...the great shipment of Czechoslovakian arms came to <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>.</sentence><sentence id="902">This is all before that...that period.</sentence><sentence id="903">We took out all these <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">buses</span>...the things with full lights and we drove toward the <span class="DLF">frontier</span>.</sentence><sentence id="904">Okay?</sentence><sentence id="905">And so if you are sitting on the top of the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">mountain</span> and you're looking down like the Arabs were at the time at the frontier of <span class="COUNTRY">Lebanon</span> in <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>, whoever...there was some army there.</sentence><sentence id="906">Of course, not...nothing of any great numbers but there were some.</sentence><sentence id="907">And they're looking down and you see all these lights coming in.</sentence><sentence id="908">They would say, _. "</sentence><sentence id="909">The Israelis are bring the entire army over here."</sentence><sentence id="910">Well, we did.</sentence><sentence id="911">We drove with lights on.</sentence><sentence id="912">We turned around underneath the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">mountain</span> where they could not see.</sentence><sentence id="913">There was large growths of...of olives, and we turned around and came back without lights.</sentence><sentence id="914">And we turned around again and came back with lights.</sentence><sentence id="915">You know, in with lights on, back without lights.</sentence><sentence id="916">And we did this for a given period of time.</sentence><sentence id="917">But for your information, there was only one time that we found out that it was a few <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">Arab tanks</span> that came down from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Horshineka</span>, Russ, and Nicura, down into the section of the <span class="DLF">road</span> to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Hineta</span>, and they turned around and back they went again.</sentence><sentence id="918">They never dare to go beyond that point.</sentence><sentence id="919">And, let me tell, if they had there was nothing to hold them like I said.</sentence><sentence id="920">So in this case, the Haganah...uh... used a lot of...of strategy of faked...uh... movements which was very 3 successful in illuding the enemy at the time...uh...from advancing, because they did not know what was expected from...from them.</sentence><sentence id="921">And...uh...but...uh...at this point in time...uh...I'd like also to talk to you about an experience just very, very shortly before this...the war started, there was a convoy going to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Yesshiam</span>, <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Kibbutz Yesshiam</span>.</sentence><sentence id="922">Yesshiam was the name of a young man by the name of Yesshiam Vis, who was a meter of the PALMA, special forces of the Israeli...uh... Haganah.</sentence><sentence id="923">And...uh...Yesshiam Vis was amongst the detachment of...uh...PALMA that involved in <span class="DLF">operation bridges</span>.</sentence><sentence id="924">In 1947, the Haganah decided to build, to blow up every <span class="DLF">bridge</span>...every <span class="DLF">bridge</span> that was connecting at the time the land of <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span> so to speak and all the other <span class="REGION">Arab countries</span>.</sentence><sentence id="925">And...uh...so...uh...it was very effective.</sentence><sentence id="926">The main purpose, I understand, was...uh...uh...just to show that...uh... we can take care of ourselves, and also some sort of a warning also toward the Arabs, you know, that..."Don't attack."</sentence><sentence id="927">It didn't maybe work, but said don't attack us.</sentence><sentence id="928">Leave us alone.</sentence><sentence id="929">Let us be.</sentence><sentence id="930">Unfortunately, there is a legend about the...the... Yeeheim Vis.</sentence><sentence id="931">The <span class="DLF">bridge</span> they were supposed to blow up was in...uh...was called Asiv, which goes back to the Finnishian times.</sentence><sentence id="932">It's a little <span class="DLF">bridge</span>.</sentence><sentence id="933">And...uh...uh...the legend is that...uh... the...uh...from some Arabs later on we found out that there was a group of British army...uh...soldiers.</sentence><sentence id="934">There was a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">British army camp</span> not too far away from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Asiv</span>, that...uh... was...apparently, they were doing some sort of manuevers in the middle of the night unbeknown to the group.</sentence><sentence id="935">And as a result, they were ambushed.</sentence><sentence id="936">Since every...and each of one these young men carried the...the dynamite, explosives with them.</sentence><sentence id="937">Uh...There was...not a thing was found from them.</sentence><sentence id="938">Absolutely nothing!</sentence><sentence id="939">They just disappeared.</sentence><sentence id="940">Was about 8 if I remember correctly.</sentence><sentence id="941">And today there is a memorial to...uh...<span class="BUILDING">Yeeheim Vis</span> in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Asiv</span> by the <span class="DLF">bridge</span>.</sentence><sentence id="942">And...uh..before the war, there was an American...as a matter of fact, an American group of young men and women that built a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">kibbutz</span> in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Asiv</span>, by the name of Asiv...American...I was there on the commemoration with General Adror at the time.</sentence><sentence id="943">But in the meantime the...</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1020">Q: We need to stop at this point and change tapes.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1022">A: Okay.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1024">Q: Okay.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1026">A: In...in the meantime, actually, the Jewish Agency decided...uh...to honor the name of Yeeheim Vis.</sentence><sentence id="1027">His father was at the time, I believe, a high official in the Jewish Agency.</sentence><sentence id="1028">So...uh...in the <span class="REGION">Western Galilee</span>, there was too much openness actually, especially coming in from the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">mountains</span>...uh.. So they decided...the Jewish Agency decided to build two kibbultzes.</sentence><sentence id="1029">It was just shortly before the war started.</sentence><sentence id="1030">And one of them is named, today, of course, Yeehim.</sentence><sentence id="1031">I'm quite familiar with the <span class="REGION">area</span> because Yeehim if you go back to...uh...to several years ago, used to be called in Arabic.</sentence><sentence id="1032">And there was an Arab...a very, sort of a <span class="BUILDING">stronghold</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1033">But it was abandoned.</sentence><sentence id="1034">There was no one there actually.</sentence><sentence id="1035">And...uh...so the Sofnut decided to build a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">kibbutz</span> at____ by honoring the name of Yeehim.</sentence><sentence id="1036">And...uh...this was done.</sentence><sentence id="1037">Next <span class="DLF">door</span> was built another <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">kibbutz</span> and...uh...uh...uh...I believe was Gotton.</sentence><sentence id="1038">I cannot quite remember the name, but I 4 remember that I was there at the time.</sentence><sentence id="1039">And this <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">kibbutz</span> was built already under fire...under Arabic fire because...uh...you could...it was a very...it was a very excitable day because here were the Haganah putting up little <span class="DLF">sheds</span> and so forth, girls making food, and here these guys were shooting down from...from the...from a <span class="NPIP">spot</span> called the Mountain of the...the <span class="DLF">Tree Mountain</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1040">Because was in above the higher level.</sentence><sentence id="1041">And...uh...1 can't remember exactly all the names in Hebrew any more, but it's...was like a <span class="ENV_FEATURES">tree</span> because there was a large <span class="ENV_FEATURES">tree</span> there.</sentence><sentence id="1042">And...uh...that's basically how come that this <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">kibbutz Yeeheim</span> came about, to honor Yeeheim Vis, basically.</sentence><sentence id="1043">And we used to go...uh...prior to the war...uh...the Haganah used to <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">train</span> and we used to bring arms, ammunitions, and food to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">kibbutz Yeeheim</span> .</sentence><sentence id="1044">We used to walk for 4 and a half hours from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Nahariyya</span> to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Yeeheim</span> because you go up to the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">mountains</span> and you have to walk to , and you had to bypass small <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Arab villages</span> and you had to do it...uh...all night long pretty much and you had to do it to such an extent so that you would not create too much noise.</sentence><sentence id="1045">If you had...uh...a squad, which is equivalent to a British army squad of 11 men and the officer, uh...we...uh...we used to have different squads going to different <span class="REGION">areas</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1046">And...uh.... also to make a mock attacking, attacking Yeeheim_ because we expected there wwould be problems as...as... as the kibbutz would be...be put in there.</sentence><sentence id="1047">And there were many problems.</sentence><sentence id="1048">They were...they were attacked many times.</sentence><sentence id="1049">But...uh...obviously, the attacks could not come from the __ because there was no shape, or form that as you were climbing this...this...this high mountain, big so to speak...uh...you always made noise, no matter how careful you are.</sentence><sentence id="1050">You could hear it.</sentence><sentence id="1051">You could hear it way a way before you were...uh...<span class="NPIP">inside</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1052">They could hear the noise already.</sentence><sentence id="1053">So basically that's what happened in...the __.</sentence><sentence id="1054">And from there, of course...uh...we...uh...(clearing throat) ...uh...there was a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">convoy</span> where I lost my...my very best friends.</sentence><sentence id="1055">I used to live at the time...shortly before that I used to live with a family by the name of Shinerman.</sentence><sentence id="1056">And...uh...there was two boys and a girl.</sentence><sentence id="1057">Moses, Alisa, and Salome Shinerman.</sentence><sentence id="1058">And...uh... There was a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">convoy</span> at one time.</sentence><sentence id="1059">an <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">armed convoy</span>...that's when the conflicts already had started in 19...uh...beginning of 48...uh...that...uh... they took...it was a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bus</span> and several <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">trucks</span>, and a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">pickup truck</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1060">The <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">pickup truck</span> had a...had a device like in V shape that had a wheel and this device would be lowered to the <span class="DLF">road</span> and it would push any any stones that the Arabs used to block because they used to block the...the <span class="DLF">roads</span> all the time.</sentence><sentence id="1061">It was very easy to do.</sentence><sentence id="1062">You throw in a few large rocks and no <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">car</span> can by.</sentence><sentence id="1063">Uh...Interesting enough, the <span class="DLF">road</span> between <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Nahariyya</span> and <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Nefriam</span>...uh...about...for about 5 miles was a zig zag, very zigzaggy.</sentence><sentence id="1064">And...uh...the Arabs used to call it the <span class="DLF">road</span> of backshis.</sentence><sentence id="1065">The...uh...backshis is an Arabic word for tipping.</sentence><sentence id="1066">And the reason being that...uh...way back before I even came to <span class="COUNTRY">Palestine</span>, the...uh...when the British mandate were building the <span class="DLF">road</span>...that particular <span class="DLF">road</span>... uh...which was quite parallel to the...the <span class="DLF">Lebanese border</span> so to speak...uh...every Arab sheik that had orange or citrus groves or lemon groves...by paying the British backshis...the would make the <span class="DLF">road</span> came to their <span class="DLF">gates</span>, so they could come with the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">trucks</span> and as a result the <span class="DLF">road</span> went like this.</sentence><sentence id="1067">That...that's a fact.</sentence><sentence id="1068">And...uh...so as the _ came about, and I can tell you the precise date and the precise hour was March 23rd, 1948 at 20 til 3 in the afternoon.</sentence><sentence id="1069">Uh... There were brutally attacked by...by the arm of , the known...uh...Arab liberator of <span class="COUNTRY">Palestine</span> so to speak.</sentence><sentence id="1070">And he was very...very smart man, and he was able to illude the Israeli army...uh...at the time...uh...by running 5 away through a...his own __ <span class="DLF">road</span> that he made to the <span class="REGION">Western Galilee</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1071">But nevertheless ....uh...the attack on the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">convoy</span> to ____ was quite successful simply because there was a serious of tragedies.</sentence><sentence id="1072">Uh...Number one, the officer commanding the...uh...the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">convoy</span> was...by name of...uh...uh...Ben Aame if you heard about him.</sentence><sentence id="1073">And...uh...my best friend, Moses Shinerman was a lieutenant at the time in the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">unit</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1074">This was my unit.</sentence><sentence id="1075">I was spared simply because my wife was giving birth to my daughter at that...a few hours before that.</sentence><sentence id="1076">And because she was quite ill with a..-with a bone...some type of...uh... deficiency, that the doctor at the time...we did not have a <span class="BUILDING">hospital</span> at that time there..he said, "Isaac, you must stay here."</sentence><sentence id="1077">And in fact he even talked to our commanding officer, that I must stay there because they expected the worst from birth.</sentence><sentence id="1078">Fortunately enough, nothing happened.</sentence><sentence id="1079">But...uh...Alisa Shiner, which was like my sister, came to see the baby at...before she left even to the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">convoy</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1080">And...uh...I said, "Gee, I wish I could go, but the doctor did not allow me to go."</sentence><sentence id="1081">I had to stay there.</sentence><sentence id="1082">So the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">convoy</span> left...uh...uh...a few...1t was a few minutes after the left Nahariyya, they were all ambushed.</sentence><sentence id="1083">Because they...they ...they waited until the...the...uh...last <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">truck</span> had passed this zig zag and then they started to put some rocks and they put some rocks at the other end of the zig zag so that they first <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">car</span> unbeknown to them was able...was able to break the <span class="DLF">barricade</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1084">The second <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">car</span> in <span class="DLF">line</span> was the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bus</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1085">The <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bus</span> had armor.</sentence><sentence id="1086">The Israeli, at the time, they put armor and they welded these heavy metal plates in the <span class="INT_SPACE">cabin</span> so that the driver would not be hurt.</sentence><sentence id="1087">Unfortunately, as the driver of the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">bus</span> was trying to turn around, they threw apparently some of a molotov cocktail.</sentence><sentence id="1088">And both of the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">tires</span> were shot so the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">truck</span> then became paralyzed in...in closing the <span class="DLF">road</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1089">So all the other 6 or 7 other <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">trucks</span>...they were behind them...okay...we...we felt the same...the same thing.</sentence><sentence id="1090">They couldn't move.</sentence><sentence id="1091">And as a result the...uh...the people were given the word apparently to...uh...save yourself.</sentence><sentence id="1092">And... uh...very, very few were to...to survive this incident.</sentence><sentence id="1093">Uh...they were able to escape by hiding on the water that flows from the <span class="REGION">Western Galilee</span> to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Nahariyya</span> to the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">ocean</span>...to the <span class="REGION">Atlantic Ocean</span> to the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">Mediterranean</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1094">There was a little bit <span class="ENV_FEATURES">creek</span>, and they were able to survive by hiding there because in the meantime it was beginning to be dark, you see.</sentence><sentence id="1095">Had the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">convoy</span> had left earlier although it was 20 in the afternoon, 20 to 3...uh...March...uh...uh...it wasn't quite full summer yet.</sentence><sentence id="1096">And...uh...they survived by staying there in the dark, and maneuvering.</sentence><sentence id="1097">Some of them arrived in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Nahariyya</span> and they...what...the next thing what happened was the British mandate was...the army was and the police were still at the time in <span class="COUNTRY">Palestine</span>, they did not allow the Haganah to...whoever the forces that we wanted to go out and try to help, but they would not allow it.</sentence><sentence id="1098">Could not live <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Nahariyya</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1099">And it was one of the greatest disasters that we suffered...uh...in...uh...in the Haifaam...the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">convoy</span> to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Haifaam</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1100">Uh...We lost 40...49...1 believe 49 members.</sentence><sentence id="1101">But then there was an action that...uh..some...some said in <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span> later on there was a...uh...an action from the Haganah to make up for the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">convoy</span> to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Haifaam</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1102">And what happened was one of the Israeli telephone operators caught up or intercepted a message coming from the <span class="DLF">Lebanese border</span> that there was a convoy coming in with...at the time if you remember the British...the British had the Arab Legion in <span class="COUNTRY">Palestine</span> as well.</sentence><sentence id="1103">And the Arab Legion had some <span class="BUILDING">stations</span> in the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Mount Cumberland Haifa</span>, if you remember.</sentence><sentence id="1104">They had some...so the...the Israeli intelligence was able to find out...the Haganah...that there was a convoy coming in from <span class="COUNTRY">Lebanon</span> full of arms and ammunitions for the Arabs.</sentence><sentence id="1105">Let me tell you, that I saw 6 personally.</sentence><sentence id="1106">And I have never seen a thing like this in my life.</sentence><sentence id="1107">For several days, the entire all the <span class="BUILDING">houses</span> along the main <span class="DLF">road</span> <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Haifa Beirut</span> were emptied.</sentence><sentence id="1108">Now, the Arabs, of course, didn't know that.</sentence><sentence id="1109">And there were several members of the <span class="BUILDING">Haganah</span> and the PALMA waiting in hiding because they...they knew that the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">convoy</span> was coming but they did know when exactly...the precise time.</sentence><sentence id="1110">And...uh...by sheer coincidence, I was not involved in...in any of those actions at the time, I just happened to come to ____ with a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">truck</span> which I is I...] used to bring food and all kinds of things from <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Haifa</span> to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Nahariyya</span> during this period.</sentence><sentence id="1111">And I just had arrived barely in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Kavathim</span>... was a big, big circle.</sentence><sentence id="1112">And all of a sudden, all <span class="NPIP">Hell</span> broke loose.</sentence><sentence id="1113">This <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">convoy</span> had come in with the arms at the other end on the north side of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Kayat</span>...uh... Kayathim...Kayat valley.</sentence><sentence id="1114">And...uh...of course, it appears that not just there was several...uh...private <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">cars</span>, <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">automobiles</span>, <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">sedans</span>, and there was some Araban Legion <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">trucks</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1115">And apparently each one of them had some sort of dynamite in it.</sentence><sentence id="1116">Not only did they have some dynamite in it, they also had some officers of the...uh...the Arab Legion in it.</sentence><sentence id="1117">So the result was, it was just...uh...very tragic for the...for the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">convoy</span>, because...uh...no one came out of it alive.</sentence><sentence id="1118">Not a single person!</sentence><sentence id="1119">But what I saw and that I'll never forget in my life, for as long as I live.</sentence><sentence id="1120">The British police and the British army...of course, they immediately surrounded...closed the <span class="DLF">roads</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1121">Okay?</sentence><sentence id="1122">And...uh...you could smell the fire.</sentence><sentence id="1123">You could smell bodies burning.</sentence><sentence id="1124">You could see the fires because we were right there.</sentence><sentence id="1125">Okay?</sentence><sentence id="1126">But I'll never forget in my life is when the British...when all this action disappeared...several Israelis were also actually hurt because one young man from the Haganah, he just went the head of that <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">truck</span> and he then became...he received the highest medal from the Israeli army because he was the one who really went to the middle of the <span class="DLF">road</span> and just stopped that <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">truck</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1127">He just shot everybody...whatever the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">truck</span> as the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">truck</span> was coming to him, and he himself in turn was blown up, and his face...uh...I can't remember his name...they had all the plastic operations and a year, etc.,</sentence><sentence id="1128">etc.,</sentence><sentence id="1129">and he was for a longest time hospitalized.</sentence><sentence id="1130">But the point is...1 wanted to make, when I saw the British officers, British police with....uh...portable...uh...what do you call this...uh...when you put somebody...it's made of canvas, you know.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1239">Q: Body bag?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1241">A: No.</sentence><sentence id="1242">Not a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">body bag</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1243">No.</sentence><sentence id="1244">No.</sentence><sentence id="1245">No.</sentence><sentence id="1246">Uh...if someone is injured, for instance..</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1253">Q: Stretchers.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1255">A: <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Stretchers</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1256">I beg your pardon.</sentence><sentence id="1257">They used to have <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">stretchers</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1258">Okay?</sentence><sentence id="1259">And...uh...they would put a <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">stretcher</span> next to a body.</sentence><sentence id="1260">Now that body...uh...those that I have seen...I saw at the time without a head, without arms, etc.</sentence><sentence id="1261">They didn't touch the bodies as such.</sentence><sentence id="1262">They used sticks, and with sticks they used to push the bodies into the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">stretcher</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1263">Okay?</sentence><sentence id="1264">And then they went like this...one...two...three, and dumped the body into the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">pickup trucks</span> that they had.</sentence><sentence id="1265">I'll never forget it in my life.</sentence><sentence id="1266">Never!</sentence><sentence id="1267">I thought it was so inhuman...no matter if it was Arab, if it was a Jew, he was dead...the person, whoever was left.</sentence><sentence id="1268">And I thought he would be treated a little more...with some dignity, and not as if you tossing a pail of 7 garbage into the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">truck</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1269">But they did it.</sentence><sentence id="1270">It was very, very cold...cold.</sentence><sentence id="1271">And...uh...so we afterwards, we had to wait several hours.</sentence><sentence id="1272">We were allowed in when they cleaned up on the <span class="DLF">roads</span>, etc.,</sentence><sentence id="1273">and the mess...we were allowed to go to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Nahariyya</span> in our <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">convoy</span> when we met.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1293">Q: You obviously fought through the War of Independence.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1295">A: Yes.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1297">Q: How long did you live in <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1299">A: I stayed in <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span> until 1959.</sentence><sentence id="1300">That's when I left basically.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1303">Q: Okay.</sentence><sentence id="1304">Tell us why you left and tell us something about you coming to this <span class="COUNTRY">country</span>.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1307">A: Well I (clearing throat) after the war I...1 became a tourist driver guide, licensed by the government and...uh...I had one of the blue license.</sentence><sentence id="1308">There was a red and a blue.</sentence><sentence id="1309">I was not a biblical scholar, but I did have and I do have a basic knowledge of the <span class="REGION">western Galilee</span>, and I was familiar so I drove many, many....uh...tourists... dignitaries.</sentence><sentence id="1310">Uh...1 drove...uh...Polish...uh...commission.</sentence><sentence id="1311">They were making a film in the <span class="REGION">western Galilee</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1312">I drove...uh...I drove the Turkish Consul-General to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Jerusalem</span>...uh...the new one that came to...to <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span> at the time.</sentence><sentence id="1313">I drove...uh...a....uh...Jewish Parliamentary Commissions that came to visit also the <span class="REGION">western Galilee</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1314">Uh...I was assigned at one time, and I drove...uh...Isaac Bensfee, the President of <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span> at the time, and his wife.</sentence><sentence id="1315">They sat in the back of my <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">car</span>, and in the front...uh...we picked up in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Auspina</span> on the way to...uh...the excavations of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Hotsora</span> at the time...uh...we picked up the very famous archaeologist, uh...God bless their...their souls.</sentence><sentence id="1316">Uh...He was the leading...uh...archaeologist in the <span class="COUNTRY">country</span>, and at the time he was also the Chief of Staff of the Israel Army.</sentence><sentence id="1317">So we drove to the excavations of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Hotsor</span> in <span class="REGION">western Galilee</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1318">It was the most fascinating experience in life to listen to these biblical scholars speaking about how Joshua had taken over the <span class="ENV_FEATURES">mountains</span> from the Canaanites.</sentence><sentence id="1319">And it was a fascinating experience.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1334">Q: What made you decide...when do you come...what made you decide to come to the <span class="COUNTRY">United States</span>?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1336">A: [had the...the great honor of meeting a very charming...uh ...older lady in <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span> which is...uh...was my wife's great mother.</sentence><sentence id="1337">And she used to live in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">New Rochelle</span>, <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">New York</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1338">She came to visit <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span> on a few occasions.</sentence><sentence id="1339">I only met her once.</sentence><sentence id="1340">She was quite a elderly lady, and somehow or another we then had a little reunion, and it was discussed that...uh ..perhaps we should come and stay with her family in the <span class="COUNTRY">United States</span> because myself I only had a brother in <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span> at that time.</sentence><sentence id="1341">And my wife had these cousins and...and so forth.</sentence><sentence id="1342">And then a little bit later on, again by...by...by sheer coincidence, there was another member from the <span class="COUNTRY">United States</span>, a father-in-law of my wife's cousin.</sentence><sentence id="1343">He had, at the time, arrived to visit <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span> and I had a meeting with him with my mother-in-law and he was a 8 very exciting man.</sentence><sentence id="1344">He was a Polish Jewish fellow...uh...namely Abe Rockland was his name, God bless his soul.</sentence><sentence id="1345">And he told me in his broken English, he said, "You should come to <span class="COUNTRY">America</span> yesterday."</sentence><sentence id="1346">And..uh...kind of I...1 start to think a little bit more in that.</sentence><sentence id="1347">Now | always liked <span class="COUNTRY">United States</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1348">As a child in <span class="COUNTRY">Portugal</span>, I used to love to read.</sentence><sentence id="1349">Books...the little booklets about Buffalo Bill.</sentence><sentence id="1350">That was my number one hero was Buffalo Bill.</sentence><sentence id="1351">And the buffalo and the...and the things...fights with the Indians and all that sort of things.</sentence><sentence id="1352">I used to read a lot.</sentence><sentence id="1353">And that's how I...I read a lot of it in...in...1 couldn't quite understand English at that time, but I forced myself and taught myself some English.</sentence><sentence id="1354">And so I always had the good vision that the <span class="COUNTRY">United States</span>, of course, is...is the greatest in the world.</sentence><sentence id="1355">And it is.</sentence><sentence id="1356">And...uh...and we decided then to immigrate, to come to the <span class="COUNTRY">United States</span>, and we left <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>...uh...in 1959, and we came to the <span class="COUNTRY">United States</span> in 1959.</sentence><sentence id="1357">My wife, Miriam, and my daughter, Tamara, my son, Daniel, and my son, Michael.</sentence><sentence id="1358">Uh...My daughter, Tamara, went to <span class="COUNTRY">Switzerland</span> to live with the rest of the family after she graduated from <span class="BUILDING">high school</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1359">My son, Daniel, of course...uh... stayed in...with us, and...uh...he joined the army without my knowledge...uh...joined the Vietnam war.</sentence><sentence id="1360">He volunteered to...uh...to...to go to <span class="COUNTRY">Vietnam</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1361">And...uh...although (clearing throat) I am very, very proud of him because...uh...he served with great honors...the...uh...with the Green Berets, and also with the Ninth Armed Calvary.</sentence><sentence id="1362">And he was shot down four times...uh...from the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">helicopters</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1363">He used to be with the...uh...the...uh...the small...uh...<span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">OV helicopters</span>, the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">observations helicopters</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1364">And fortunately enough, he was always fell in some <span class="DLF">rice paddies</span> or within the <span class="REGION">area</span> that he was not...never injured.</sentence><sentence id="1365">Uh....he jumped out of the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">choppers</span> actually, when the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">choppers</span> were...were attacked.</sentence><sentence id="1366">And...uh...he's very heavily (clearing throat) honored ...uh...Presidential citations and bronze stars.</sentence><sentence id="1367">He has three bronze stars and many other medals, and I'm very, very proud of him.</sentence><sentence id="1368">And Michael, my younger son, works with me in the business.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1402">Q: Thank you.</sentence><sentence id="1403">I'd like...I'd like to go back a little now.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1406">A: Sure.</sentence><sentence id="1407">Sure.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1410">Q: If we could, I'd like to go back to <span class="COUNTRY">Portugal</span>...uh...during the war.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1412">A: Okay.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1414">Q: You're a young man of 16?</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1416">A: Yes.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1418">Q: Okay.</sentence><sentence id="1419">Can you tell us a little more about your impressions of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">refugee community</span> that filled the <span class="INT_SPACE">Jewish soup kitchen</span>?</sentence><sentence id="1420">More about the people, and about the numbers of people that came there.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1424">A: Alright.</sentence><sentence id="1425">It's...uh... 9</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1428">Q: Could you repeat the question?</sentence><sentence id="1429">Just repeat it a little.</sentence><sentence id="1430">The microphone will pick it up.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1434">A: Okay.</sentence><sentence id="1435">L...uh...uh...I understand that you would like to know a little bit more about the situation in the <span class="INT_SPACE">soup kitchen</span>...uh...perhaps some numbers of refugees that came by and what was the...the situation, the atmosphere.</sentence><sentence id="1436">Uh...It's...uh...sometimes difficult..-uh...to go back so many years and...and be able to precisely memorize on what happen then.</sentence><sentence id="1437">Uh...But something of very interest that I should have and I did not mention earlier, was...uh...by a sheer coincidence, as I told you before, I happened to be a cousin to Senator from <span class="REGION">Minnesota</span>, Rudy Boshwitz, through my wife because of the marriage.</sentence><sentence id="1438">And his wife, Ellen Boshwitz, was one of the refugees that passed through <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span> at that point in time in history.</sentence><sentence id="1439">But I don't remember meeting her then, because she was much younger.</sentence><sentence id="1440">She was a younger person than me.</sentence><sentence id="1441">And I do not remember...I don't she was necessarily at the <span class="INT_SPACE">soup kitchen</span> because not all the refugees that came to <span class="COUNTRY">Portugal</span> were at the <span class="INT_SPACE">soup kitchen</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1442">Some of the refugees...they...they were persons of means that were able to somehow manage to bring some money with them, some...and they were able to stay in...in <span class="BUILDING">hotels</span> and...uh...for a given period of time.</sentence><sentence id="1443">And...uh...and I understand that Ellen and her family...they left <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span> by <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">boat</span> to <span class="COUNTRY">Brazil</span>, and then from <span class="COUNTRY">Brazil</span>, they came to the <span class="COUNTRY">United States</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1444">But...uh...most of the other refugees that really had no means and were waiting for visas to...uh...to... uh...immigrate to the <span class="COUNTRY">Unites States</span>, to <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>, to <span class="REGION">South America</span>, etc.,</sentence><sentence id="1445">etc...uh...there was a time in...uh...<span class="COUNTRY">Portugal</span> when...uh...many of these refugees" visas had expired, and they are allowed to stay a given period of time, if it was 3 months, 6 months, etc.</sentence><sentence id="1446">And as a result the...uh...the Portuguese, if I may say so, are very...the Portuguese language is a very complete language.</sentence><sentence id="1447">They say : Everything is to be just so.</sentence><sentence id="1448">Uh...And they're very particular.</sentence><sentence id="1449">And the reason they're law- abiding.</sentence><sentence id="1450">So...so when the refugees visas expired, the next step was you are jailed.</sentence><sentence id="1451">Simple as that!</sentence><sentence id="1452">Now, you have here...uh...uh...a large group of people, reasonable large, several hundred people that suddenly, while they were able to escape the Nazi persecution and the Nazi armies, are being put in <span class="BUILDING">jail</span> in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span> with common criminals.</sentence><sentence id="1453">And the sad part is, of course, that most of these people in large numbers were academicians.</sentence><sentence id="1454">They were doctors.</sentence><sentence id="1455">They were engineers.</sentence><sentence id="1456">They were scientists, etc.,</sentence><sentence id="1457">businessmen, etc.</sentence><sentence id="1458">So the Portuguese-Jewish community and I believe again here, in conjunction with the American Joint Committee, asked the government of <span class="COUNTRY">Portugal</span> to allow these refugees...to...to assign to these refugees some small <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">villages</span> surrounding <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span> so they...they could with some ...some dignity live in there, until they were able to receive visas to leave <span class="COUNTRY">Portugal</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1459">And this was granted.</sentence><sentence id="1460">There was several little <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">villages</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1461">I can't remember... think one of them that I remember is that was allowed for refugees to stay there.</sentence><sentence id="1462">They were not allowed to move out of these <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">villages</span> without the permission of the Portuguese...uh...Naturalization Immigration Department, because they were very strict.</sentence><sentence id="1463">Uh...The president of the time of the Jewish community in <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span> was Professor Onsolack.</sentence><sentence id="1464">Uh...He was the professor of...uh...science in the <span class="BUILDING">University of Lisbon</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1465">And ironically...uh...it is often said that he was good friend with the Prime Minister Salosar.even though that Solsar give orders to ______ not to issue visas to Jews...uh...on the side, the Portuguese government was very strict.</sentence><sentence id="1466">And I cannot, as I said earlier, personally say, that I was persecuted by the Portuguese government.</sentence><sentence id="1467">I was not as such.</sentence><sentence id="1468">0 Uh... That Jews were persecuted by the Portuguese government, I can't say that either.</sentence><sentence id="1469">Either than the fact that _____ was removed from his position, that it is true of the Portuguese people, not the government, that they were very helpful to the Jewish refugees.</sentence><sentence id="1470">In many instances!</sentence><sentence id="1471">And many <span class="BUILDING">stores</span> even, I understand, even giving them clothing.</sentence><sentence id="1472">Although I have tendency to disagree with some of the statistics that are coming out from the <span class="REGION">Portuguese government side</span> stating that over 40,000 Jewish refugees came to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Lisbon</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1473">I...I know...I'm quite certain that...that as many refugees as I saw in the <span class="INT_SPACE">soup kitchen</span>, I did not see 40,000 refugees come to the <span class="INT_SPACE">soup kitchen</span>.</sentence><sentence id="1474">If indeed there were refugees that came to <span class="COUNTRY">Portugal</span> and somehow they...those that you never knew about...they...they came in; they stayed a few days in a <span class="BUILDING">hotel</span>; they got a visa; they kept on going to <span class="REGION">South America</span> or...or...or <span class="REGION">North America</span> or...or...or <span class="COUNTRY">Palestine</span> or <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span> or other <span class="COUNTRY">countries</span> for that matter, I do not know.</sentence><sentence id="1475">I do not know.</sentence><sentence id="1476">And...uh...in as much as the atmosphere itself in the <span class="INT_SPACE">soup kitchen</span>, it was..uh...I tried to bring back my...my mental memory...uh...and look at these families sitting on the <span class="SPATIAL_OBJ">table</span> and...uh...and...uh...they were not happy faces to say the least.</sentence><sentence id="1477">You could always see sad faces.</sentence><sentence id="1478">Okay?</sentence><sentence id="1479">Faces of when...when a person is concerned, when you are worried about...uh...whatever happened to...to your mother, your father, your uncle, your aunt, your niece, your brother, your sister?</sentence><sentence id="1480">You don't know.</sentence><sentence id="1481">You didn't know.</sentence><sentence id="1482">You were the lucky one.</sentence><sentence id="1483">You were able to make it.</sentence><sentence id="1484">You run away fast.</sentence><sentence id="1485">You..you were lucky to do it.</sentence><sentence id="1486">You saved your life.</sentence><sentence id="1487">What happened to the other ones?</sentence><sentence id="1488">And it was very difficult.</sentence><sentence id="1489">And it was a concern because as you well know, Jewish are so very emotional, and...uh...there were many a tears in the kitchen soup, many a tears and you could see...you could observe that.</sentence><sentence id="1490">Uh...And yet there was...uh...as I told you before about this fellow, Gustof Zumick, repairing the shoes of other refugees.</sentence><sentence id="1491">That was the least he could have done to help his fellow...fellow...fellow in...in...in this instance you know.</sentence><sentence id="1492">So there was a...a...a still a little bit of a sense .of...uh...of, "I am your...my brother's keeper," you know.</sentence><sentence id="1493">That's a atmosphere that I can best describe.</sentence><sentence id="1494">Helping someone with the nothing that you have, you know.</sentence><sentence id="1495">And I think it was very typical of the...of the Jews at the time, helping each other with the least that they had, with the nothing that they had.</sentence><sentence id="1496">So I don't know if I answered your question.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1561">Q: You did indeed.</sentence><sentence id="1562">Is there anything you want to add.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1565">A: (Sigh) Yes.</sentence><sentence id="1566">I...I'm having a hard time keeping my tears inside me.</sentence><sentence id="1567">Because every time when I think about these things, you know...uh...I happen to be Jewish too and very emotional too.</sentence><sentence id="1568">It's hard to keep them down.</sentence><sentence id="1569">Really.</sentence><sentence id="1570">It's...uh...my friends that were killed during the war and....uh...even some of the what I saw in Europe with the dispersed persons and...uh... Later on in <span class="COUNTRY">Israel</span>, if I may add that too, as I became a tourist driver guide, there was a <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">kibbutz</span> by the name of .</sentence><sentence id="1571">In English, it's called the ghetto of fighters.</sentence><sentence id="1572">I was very, very fortunate again because I was called on more than one occasions...many, many times, to drive one of the leaders of the ghetto fighters.</sentence><sentence id="1573">His name was Isaac Zuckerman.</sentence><sentence id="1574">Yes.</sentence><sentence id="1575">And I drove that man so many times, taking him from the kibbutz, bringing him to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Nahariyya</span>, bring him to <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Haifa</span>, bring him here, bring him there.</sentence><sentence id="1576">And there was a girl by the name of Miriam.</sentence><sentence id="1577">I cannot remember her other number.</sentence><sentence id="1578">But she was also one of the few...Isaac Zuckerman and Miriam were one of the few Jewish 1 people that were able to...to get out of the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE" lat="52.233028" long="21.017">Warsaw</span>....<span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Warsaw ghetto</span> alive.</sentence><sentence id="1579">I guess most of the leaders were all killed by the...by the ...by the Germans, by the Nazis armies.</sentence><sentence id="1580">But they survived.</sentence><sentence id="1581">And...uh...as the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">kibbutz</span> was being from...from the very beginning...uh...which was built near a <span class="DLF">Roman aqueduct</span> in...about 5 kilometers south of <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">Nahariyya</span>, , as it was built up, of course, I used to bring tourists over there also to visit the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">kibbutz</span> .. But this was... uh...one of the last things really I...that it was very, very touching.</sentence><sentence id="1582">Anytime you went to the...into the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">ghetto</span>'s fighters, as they were building the <span class="POPULATED_PLACE">kibbutz</span> and talking to these people and...and witnessing the things that they did to humanbeings, making soap out of hair and skins and children, that was...uh...uh... As far as I'm concerned...I'm...I'm one of those that believe in the philosophy that never again...I'm gonna die with some dignity, as opposed to just submit.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1601">Q: With that note, I think we end.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Answer"><p><sentence id="1603">A: Good.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class="Question"><p><sentence id="1605">Q: Thank you very much.</sentence></p></dialogue>
<dialogue class=""><p><sentence id="1607">d. Thank you.</sentence></p></dialogue>
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