Newsgroup: it.comp.console.playstation
Titolo: Hatch & Hume (subverting democracy)

-Arjay in Long Beach
"Subvert the democratic process"? I don't think they were trying to subvert 
the system at all, just participate in it. This is certainly not a unique 
undertaking in our republic. Participants in our democratic process at all 
levels and from all ideologies seek to maximize their representation in a 
particular body and to minimize their opposition, a necessary game in a 
"majority rules" power system. That's the impetus behind gerrymandering. And 
the specific example you cite, non-proportional representation for a 
specific class of geo-political districts has a pretty sound historical 
precedent -  the Constitutional compromise which gave each state 2  
Senators. There's nothing radical or subversive about that.
Criticize the Church leadership for engaging in the political process in the 
first place (even though they have that right), but don't suggest that their 
participation is subversive to our system of government when such 
participation is the very nature of our system of government. Either we have 
a participatory democracy or we don't. Which is it?
Brian
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 of women in their own backyard before they give the rest of us advice.
Who says they don't?  They don't get massive press coverage, because
there is no way to make the church or the state look stupid on this
issues.  But the church can't arrest people for committing crimes, and
the things you mention are already illegal (although I don't think
polygamy should be.)
I agree, they have no business trying to tell the people of Hawaii,
Alaska, California, Vermont, etc how to run their states.  And they
should probably be ordered by federal court to cut it out, and/or have
their tax-emempt status yanked for it.  I just don't see much difference
between that and out-of-state environmental organizations (mostly from
California) trying to tell Utahns how to run their state.
Jon
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Posted from 
majo...@vector.casti.com
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    What environmental groups contribute millions of dollars to influence political decisions in Utah?  You must be smoking funny
smelling cigarettes. 
  Environmental groups (especially those from California)  sure wouldn't have any success with the Utah
legislature, nor would they be able to influence a ballot initiative.  Why would environmental groups waste their money?  What are
trying to do, make environmental groups look stupid?  <smile>
jay stevens
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OK, I give up.  Which is it?  I thought that a truly participatory democracy was one in which well-informed citizens made their choices for the benefit of all and independent of the undue influence of narrow special interest blocs that would abrogate the rights of others to promote their own agenda.  For example, do others, because of their 'religious' beliefs, have the right to deny me, a gay citizen, equal protection under the law?  Does a 'religious' organization that claims exemption from taxation (meaning that its tax burden is apportioned to the less godly among us, myself included) have the right to use its considerable wealth, part of which it has because it pays no taxes, to wage a campaign to deny me the right to establish a legal relationship with a cherished mate?
Yes, gerrymandering has been a favorite ploy to gain political advantage
in this country.  In fact, it was responsible in part for the long
disenfranchisement of blacks and other minorities.  Would you describe
that denial of rights as in keeping with the true spirit of democracy? 
Fortunately, in recent times, an enlightened (in my opinion, anyway) US
Supreme Court has overturned the most blatant forms of gerrymandering as
they are identified in favor of the "one man - one vote" interpretation
of the Constitution.
-Arjay in Long Beach
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