Newsgroup: it.comp.console.playstation
Titolo: Salt Lake Tribune Article

FOr those who wish to share my delusional system
Salt Lake Tribune Article:
AGAINST THE GRAIN: Veteran Scholar Tells a Story of A Rare LDS Defeat
http://www.sltrib.com/1999/jun/06191999/utah/2552.htm
From: Arjay
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Posted from 
majo...@vector.casti.com
 [199.181.80.100]
via Mailgate.ORG Server - 
http://www.mailgate.org

Well, like I said before, when this 1-seat-per-county system was in
force in other states (like Idaho where I grew up) it was to protect
rural interests from being ignored in favor of urban ones.  But I guess
in Utah there are no interests at all except pro and anti-church.  No
matter what anyone says or does, no matter what issues there are, those
who "really know" can always tell you it is just the church.
The first time I ran across a restaurant with separate smoking and
non-smoking seating was in New Jersey.  It was done for the comfort of
non-smoking diners.  But when the same thing was adopted here later, it
was only an obvious case of the church trying to cram its way down the
throats of the populace against their will.
I have been told many many times that the only reason you can't smoke in
Salt Lake airport is because the church won't allow it, and no other
itnernational airport in the world has any problem.  Experience is the
other way around, though.  Salt Lake is the only airport I have seen
where you CAN smoke.  There are separatly ventilated smoking areas in
every concourse.  But of course, those who "really know" just tell me I
am just lying because I 
When the Idaho legislature approved released time from high school for
religious instruction, it was because some state residents wanted it and
nobody would be hurt by it.  After the LDS Seminaries had been in
operation for a while, others (Baptists, Catholics, and I forget who
else) set up similar programs for their people.  But when the Utah
legislature approved released time from high school for religious
instruction, it is a travesty that no thinking person who has ever read
the constitution should allow.  And in Idaho, the Bible classes were
good for high school credit.  In Utah they aren't.  Still the Idaho one
is fine and the Utah one is indescribably evil.
The first time I heard of anyone being denied any public facilities
because of smoking was when a Greyhound driver stopped and kicked a
passenger off the bus for smoking in Los Angeles County.  But of course,
here, it would have been dismissed as just the church opressing
gentiles.
When Pennsylvania and South Carolina have a private club system as a
compromise between drinkers and those who think any drinking at all is
evil and unacceptable, it is a compromise.  And many think it is a
better compromise than the wet county/dry county system in many southern
states.  When Utah has a very similar system, it is because narrow
minded idiots can't comprehend that having a drink isn't going to kill
an adult.
When important people visiting Boston pay a courtesy call on the
Cardinal, it gets barely mentioned in the newspaper.  When important
people visiting Salt Lake pay a courtesy call on the 1st Presidency, it
is an obvious signal that the stupid jerks of Utah have never heard of
separation of church and state.
When the legislatures of Mississippi and Alabama are mostly Baptists,
and the legislatures of Vermont and Maine are mostly congretationalists,
nobody even notices.  When the legislature of Utah is mostly mormons, it
is because everyone here is a stupid sheep who sits in church until they
tell him how to vote, then goes to the ballot box and meekly obeys. 
There have even been calls for some system that would somehow prevent
this majority from happening.
When a member of any state legislature out of the other 49 votes for or
against an issue, it is his (or sometimes her) vote based on what he or
she believes. When a member of the Utah legislature votes for or against
something, it can only be because the church told him to do it.  Nobody
here could ever think, or vote their feelings, of course.  It is OK for
a Lutheran to honestly agree with something that his church teaches just
because he  thinks it is right, but it is impossible for a mormon to
honestly agree with what his church teaches.  Mormons are only allowed
to agree because they are brainwashed and/or stupid.
Heaven knows the church is far from perfect, but let's criticize it for
what it actually does, OK?  There is no need to impute all evil in the
universe and every imperfection in the state to the church.  Those of
you who insist that the church is the source of all evil are no better
than some of the locals who insist that California is the source of all
evil.  Bigotry is bigotry, no matter who you direct it against.
If anybody is still reading by now, I hope you get my point.  But I
don't really have much hope.
--
Posted from 
vector.casti.com
 [199.181.80.100]


 
You appear to be referencing my email from a day or two ago, in which I
already indicated that you misinterpreted my remarks.  Again, I did not mean
to imply that Church members could not vote in conjunction with their
beliefs.  I meant to imply that the Church has indirect over the politics in
Utah because so many of its legislators are members of the Church.  For good
or bad, this is simply a fact.  I hope I'm clear now.
darren
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Posted from 
majo...@vector.casti.com
 [199.181.80.100]


 don't really have much hope.
And, if anyone is STILL reading, I offer the following rejoinder:
It's not that I don't get your point - it's that a) you have come up
with quite a (dirty) laundry list of alleged injustices committed by the
heathen Gentile, thus significantly broadening the original topic of
discussion (whatever it was); and b) your major premise seems to be
that, if 50 million Baptists, Catholics and Buddhists do it to us, we
are justified in doing it to them.  I think, and I blanch at the
prospect of widening this debate even further, that a variation of that
same argument was used by the perpetrators of the Mountain Meadows
massacre.  Alas, it didn't play well either in the courts or with the
non-LDS citizenry throughout the Nation.  Similarly, I'm not buying your
argument.
To narrow the focus, let's discuss your contention that the Church
allows all men to smoke how, when or where they may, at least, in
comparison to those bigots in New Jersey and - oh, the shame of it! -
here in the Golden State.  Some of my earliest travel memories are of
entering Utah by bus, or was it stage coach, and hearing the drivers
announce that we had now entered Utah where smoking on public
conveyances was strictly prohibited.  That was during a time long before
smoking had been declared a public health hazard.  Was that early ban in
Utah due to the uncanny prescience of public health officials, or was it
you-know-who flexing its political muscle?
And pity (well, let's not go that far) the poor smoker in Provo during
the time I attended the 'Y'.  There were only two public gathering
places in the entire city where people could smoke since no other places
in town even had ashtrays: the bowling alley and the Viaduct Cafe.  I
made the mistake of wearing a jacket to the bowling alley one evening
and then wearing it the next day to class.  Someone sitting behind me,
in compliance with the public denunciation of evil-doers clause in the
Honor Code, stood up and exclaimed, "(Sniff, sniff) SOMEone in the class
has been smoking!"  I escaped punishment by making a denial worthy of
Judas at the Last Supper.  I made it a practice from that point on never
to mix with publicans and sinners again - unless I went to Salt Lake,
after which jaunts I thoroughly aired my clothing.
Please don't take my carping about the Church too seriously, Jon.  It
has withstood a lot more than I can or will dish out.  I do suspect,
though, that Mormonism may be largely wasted on the Mormons.  The basic
theology is so infinitely rich, profound, and joyous and encompasses all
truth.  Yet, the Pharisees and Sadducees among its leadership often seem
intent upon strangling the life out of it through exclusionary
practices, political meddling and straining at gnats while swallowing
camels.  Some of us have decided not to be consigned to the ranks of the
Stepford membership.
-Arjay in Long Beach
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I get your point and agree...  thanks for using so many examples to make the 
point... most would not have come to my mind, since I've not been in Utah 
much for 20 years since leaving after BYU graduation...
Thanks
Loren Fay in NY
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