Newsgroup: it.sport.arti-marziali
Titolo: Wingchun & Shaolin

Foshan Yongchunquan
(Futsan Wing Chun Kuen)
 By Yun-choi Yeung
    Foshan Yongchunquan is not another kind of Yongchun or Wingchun Kung Fu.
It is about Yongchunquan from Foshan, and an attempt to investigate the
various technical development of Yongchunquan in Foshan. It is not uncommon
for some teachers to follow the Hong Men practice of making their students
to take deadly vows not to disclose their secrets to any outsider. Foshan
Yongchunquan follows the tradition of Chin Woo Athletic Association, which
believes in open teaching, to promote and develop this unique art of
fighting once flourished in Foshan.
    There are many Foshan Yongchunquan Associations around the World
affiliated with Foshan Chin Woo Athletic Association's Yongchunquan Research
Activity Center.
    The origin of Yongchunquan is some what perplexing due to historical
reasons (Yeung, 1999), however from a technical point of view its
development from Shaolin Martial Arts makes very good sense. The followings
are identifiable features in Yongchunquan:
1. Yongchunquan is a unique development from Southern Shaolin Martial Arts
and is complementary to conventional Shaolin Martial Arts
2. Yongchunquan bears certain similarity to other Southern Shaolin Martial
Arts such as Hequan (Crane Boxing), Hongquan (Hong [Family] Boxing) and Nan
Tonlongquan (Southern Mantis Boxing)
3. The training method of Yongchunquan resembles the internal training of
Shaolin Martial Arts.
4. The routines of Yongchunquan are exercises to supplement traditional
Shaolin Martial Arts rather than a unique development of styles
5. The wooden dummy techniques are clearly incorporating all kinds of
Shaolin techniques rather than just those in its routines
6. The development of loose hand techniques is encouraged within the system
7. The weaponry of Yongchunquan is accommodating the popular weapons of the
region rather than designing its own weaponry
8. The development of sticking hand exercise is unique in Shaolin Martial
Arts
    No one would question the Shaolin origin of Yongchunquan for very simple
reason because it looks Shaolin. The hand techniques are very standard
Shaolin fists, palms and elbows, etc. The use of Qiao (bridge) hand, which
is the fore part of the forearm, which is typically Southern Shaolin
(Zhongguo Wushu Baikequanshu, 1998, pp. 229-231).
    The Erzi Qianyang Ma, in Cantonese it is the "Yeejee Kimyeng Ma", which
means two characters clamping the groin stance, which seems a little
different but it is identified as a kind of Southern Shaolin stance to
protect the groin (Zhongguo Wushu Baikequanshu, 1998, p.186). The turning of
the stance to the side also seems to be different but it is a kind of
Shaolin footwork called Nian Jiao (Zhongguo Wushu Baikequanshu, 1998, p.
220). It mean roller foot, a Shaolin footwork for ground fighting, which
standing like a Chinese character 8, using the heel or the sole as axial to
turn inward or outward, or use the front part of the sole as axial to move
the heel inward or outward.
    The body posture of Yongchunquan is consistent with other Southern
Shaolin standards of head and neck straight, sinking of elbows, unload the
shoulders so to speak, restrain the belly or abdomen, and hold back or
restrain the buttocks (Zhongguo Wushu Baikequanshu, 1998, p. 232).
    Yijinjing (Zhongguo Wushu Baikequanshu, 1998, p. 367), means the text of
reverse tendon, which is the classical Shaolin method of internal training.
May be the name has says it all, as it was to stretch the tendons to the
extreme by twisting the body into the reverse position. The initial training
in the routine Xiaoniantau (little idea or small thought) can be traced back
to the methods in the Yijinjing. Some teachers insisted that only at least
four years of training in the Xiaoniantau can produce perfect hands. Of
course this does not imply that they will only teach Xiaoniantau for the
whole four years but it is the basic training one should practice daily and
under constant correction and guidance of the teacher.
    The teaching methods in Yongchunquan are really focus on the practice of
Xiaoniantau, and then the other routines, sticking hand exercises and loose
hand techniques. Some teachers do not even bother with dummy techniques and
weaponry in fear of the lost of flexibility with students' hands. This is
contrary to some teachers, who make their students punching sand-bags and
dummies very early in their training program. As this will generate very
stiff forearm movements which will be a stumping block for achieving good
results in coordinating the total bodily movements. There are many
repetitive movements in the routines, and most of the movements are very
basic. The purpose is aiming at training rather than a combination of
various techniques. The assumption is that some of the movements within
these routines are difficult and different routines emphasized different
features of Yongchunquan. These routines can be consider as very simple but
contain certain difficult features like centerline, springiness in the
limbs, springiness of the hip joints and ribcage, etc., which just require
practice for a certain period. May be these routines can be learn in four
days, but four years to master them, and a life time to polish them.
    There is a saying in Yongchunquan that "one should seek and improve the
skills from the mirror and dummy after the completion of learning from the
teacher". In a way the dummy is for the development of skill rather than
just a training tool to harden the forearm for example. Most students
practiced on the dummy too early in their understudies will have a tendency
to move the arms away from the centerline, which created an opportunity for
the opponent to slip through. Furthermore, they also have the inclination to
tend toward their center of balance, which is easily overbalanced during
practice or fighting. The dummy techniques are under constant improvements,
and it is not surprise to see different variations. There is also the
Northern Mantis Boxing variation, which was developed form the Shaolin
Yongchunquan. The Yongchun dummy techniques are basic Shaolin Techniques,
but it is difficult for the application of sticking and following. May be
this is why attempts are made to develop the bamboo dummy and others with
springs, etc.
    The development of loose hand techniques can be considered to be a favor
pastime of the practitioners. Different teachers of Yongchunquan have
different developments in loose hand techniques, just like dummy hands. Some
schools have gone to the extreme in concentrating on loose hand and dummy
techniques rather than routines, may be the development of Yongchun
Sticking-hand Competition will facilitate this development.
    The weaponry of Yongchunquan is very basic, it is for practical
application rather than for performance compare to various routines
available in other systems of Southern Shaolin Martial Arts. It is not
surprise to find that the Six and Half Point Rat Tail Pole has six and a
half basic techniques, which is quite sufficient in fighting between boats.
There was some improvement by combining these basic techniques and practice
in different directions. Some claim to have Tiger Tail Pole and many more,
but mostly are favor routines taught in Foshan and nearby regions. The
double knives of Yongchunquan consist of only simple practical applications,
these techniques have nothing like the fancy butterfly double knives
routines in Hongquan for example. The features of the Yongchun knife are the
thick bladed like a bone chopping knife, finger protector and a hook. It is
not very difficult to workout these features are very useful in close up
fighting within confined area like onboard a boat. In fact the pole and
knives are unique and popular weaponry amongst the boat people in the Foshan
and Zhaoqing regions of Guangdong Province. It was said that teacher should
not tell the secret of the knives until he or she is absolutely sure that
the student is virtuous because the application is too deadly. May be this
is not important any more because more deadly weapons are already in
existence.
    The development of sticking hand techniques is unique in Shaolin, as
there is no other Shaolin art has such specific sticking techniques. There
were some suggestions that it may be influenced by Taijiquan's pushing-hand
exercise since Taijiquan is a much older art than Yongchunquan. It is
possible but the techniques and fighting strategies are certainly very
different. May be sticking-hand also embraced the idea of stick and follow
in initial contact, but the method of neutralization is very different. It
is a different set of techniques, such as turning to the side, lifting of
the elbow, guarding the centerline with the elbow, etc. These techniques are
more mechanical like releasing a spring rather than redirecting a force by
different bodily mechanics in generating a circular path.
    In any case it is rather a foolish attitude to confine a certain art to
limited set of techniques, as the ultimate aim of any martial art is
fighting to win. This will require the deployment of everything and
development of new ideas to achieve that end. Therefore, Foshan Yongchunquan
is not only advocating that it is Yongchunquan from Foshan but encouraging
the improvement of Yongchunquan by all means. The different schools or
branches of Yongchunquan from Foshan are just different developments, their
intermix with other arts could be accidental or intentional.

 Foshan Yongchunquan
-------stramegacut----------
Ma non siamo in un NG della gerarchia IT......???
;-)))
Un minimo di traduzione, Wong !!!
^___^
            ----------OSS !!!-----------
               Maestro Mario Cosentino
                    Juko Junior Club
                           Milano
 
http://www.juko-junior-club.it
 
http://web.tiscalinet.it/MarioCosentino
               icq number 46225702
                      --------------

 Un minimo di traduzione, Wong !!!
Se basta 'un minimo' posso tradurre il titolo: Wingchun E Shaolin !
YM
PS: che dici: ho esagerato con la traduzione ?!?

> Se basta 'un minimo' posso tradurre il titolo: Wingchun E Shaolin !
Ecco, lo sapevo, ho dimenticato la cosa principale: l'accento sulla E !
Wingchun e' Shaolin (i.e. arte esterna) :-)
Tanto per menare ancora un po' questo 'cavallo morto' (ma come si dice poi
in italiano ??!).
ciao
YM

     Foshan Yongchunquan ..........
Che dice in "poche parole"..... (grazie^_^)
ciao Robin

 Se basta 'un minimo' posso tradurre il titolo: Wingchun E Shaolin !
ROTFL ^_^
Stef_Ozzy / Muay Thai / D.A.C.I.E. !

Mi sa che volevi dire.... chi č interessato si rimbocchi le maniche e
traduca :)
No, troppa fatica....
Non č che ci riassumi un pezzettino in italiano?
Ok Ok come non detto...........
Orzě (pigro)

Ciao Ermanno.
Wong Yuen-Ming wrote:

A parte gli scherzi, di interno si parla già dall'epoca Tang, non ti sembra strano che in 1500 anni di scuola nello Shaolin non sia approdato anche "l'interno"?
Il prestigio della AM del monastero nasce soprattutto dal fatto di essere il frutto della presenza nello stesso luogo di più stili. Continuamente arricchito sia
da contributi di maestri che andavano al tempio per imparare ulteriormente e che quindi  lasciavano anche parte delle loro esperienze, sia da uomini abili nelle
AM che cercavano un luogo di pace o rifugio diventando monaci.
Salvatore Canzonieri parlando dello Shi Pa Lo Han Shou, ritenuto il più vecchio tra gli stili Shaolin, afferma che si trattava di una scuola con molti elementi
interni.
La divisione di cui si racconta potrebbe essere nata anche per non rischiare la stessa sorte politica dei seguaci di Shaolin?
                                                Angelo

 wrote in message
Bentornato Angelo :-)
A parte gli scherzi, di interno si parla già dall'epoca Tang, non ti sembra
strano che in 1500 anni di scuola nello Shaolin non sia approdato anche
"l'interno"? >>>
Con 'scuola interna' si identifica una scuola in maniera abbastanza precisa.
In alcuni stili Shaolin sono presenti alcuni elementi 'interni' (in realta'
raffinamenti di forme esterne) ma non per questo possono essere definiti
interni (IMHO).
Di 'interno' NON si parla nei Tang, non nel senso del termine neijia
(origine della 'divisione' interno/esterno).
Salvatore Canzonieri parlando dello Shi Pa Lo Han Shou, ritenuto il più
vecchio tra gli stili Shaolin, afferma che si trattava di una scuola con
molti elementi interni. >>>
Ho studiato (in una vita precedente) un po' di Lohan Shou ed e' proprio uno
degli stili 'interessanti' fra i derivati Shaolin.
Il fatto che un pugile pratichi jogging come parte del suo allenamento non
e' sufficiente per dire che Tyson sia un centometrista, non ti pare ?
ciao
YM

 Bentornato Angelo :-)
L'estate è passata veloce :-) ....come sabbia tra le dita :-)

Il tuo esempio rende bene l'idea e credo anche io che a quel tempo, al tempo della specificazione della differenza NeiJia Shaolin, lo Shaolin fosse più esterno
che interno.
La sensazione è che prima di quel momento lo S avesse avuto maggiori caratteristiche interne.
Già nel 6° secolo DC erano praticati al tempio esercizi di Chi Kung come Hsi Hsui Ching e Yi Jin Jing.
Salvatore Canzonieri nell'articolo da te proposto su ISAM per chiarimenti sullo Shaolin, afferma:"...The original form of Shaolin Chuan where much softer than
what they later became, sharing a heavier enphasis on internal develoment as with the taoist martial arts( such as Wu Tang Tai Yi And  others).
..."
In un'altro articolo su Han Wei N°21 lo stesso autore afferma:"...
     By 500 AD, Shaolin monks (through the influence of body
guards, temple guards, military generals, and ex-soldiers visiting
Shaolin and of monks who came from poor backgrounds, who already
knew how to fight) created the Lohan Boxing style.  This was an
internal and external style that was based on the I Chin Ching
Qigong (muscle/tendon changing), the Hsi Sui Ching (Bone
Marrow/Brain Washing) Qigong, and the Shr a Lo Han exercises (18
Lohan) Qigong, coupled with the fighting techniques that were
prevalent among the professional martial artists of the time, such
as Shuai Chiao, and the various other military quan fa.
...
 After 540 AD (which was the Liang Dynasty), the use of Qi
became emphasized to develop speed and power. Shaolin was the
center of these teachings (but it cannot be proven that they were
the originators of the Qigongs that they used) and they popularized
Qiþs use for martial development. This made many people from all
over China come to visit Shaolin and learn of its Qigong and
martial arts combination.  Before this time period, most Chinese
boxing arts developed speed and power through hard conditioning þ
continued training of muscular power. Shaolin Monks perfected
combining Qi training (the coordination of breath with internal
body mechanics - the Yi Jin Jing/ Xi Sui Jing) with traditional
conditioning and self defense techniques. The result was vast
improve vitality, stamina, and physique (during the Northern Qi
Dynasty, 550-577 AD, the monks were recorded to be able to lift
hundreds of kilograms in weight). From these ideas many types of
martial arts were developed over time.
     These Shaolin ideas about combining Qigongs and martial arts
spread to the Taoists in a short amount of time. They knew that the
use of Qi countered a stiff, muscular only body. and that to build
up Qi and circulate it smoothly, the body must be relaxed and the
mind focused. They took the Shaolin martial arts and put even more
of an emphasis on a softer body that made use of internal energy as
the foundational root of physical strength.
...
Also, the Mein or Jou(þsoftþ) boxing style was developed at Shaolin as the internal boxing techniques were separated from the external (marking the beginning of
practicing internal and external KF separately).
..."
                                                 Angelo

 wrote in message
Il tuo esempio rende bene l'idea e credo anche io che a quel tempo, al tempo
della specificazione della differenza NeiJia Shaolin, lo Shaolin fosse più
esterno che interno.
La sensazione è che prima di quel momento lo S avesse avuto maggiori
caratteristiche interne.
Già nel 6° secolo DC erano praticati al tempio esercizi di Chi Kung come Hsi
Hsui Ching e Yi Jin Jing.
Salvatore Canzonieri nell'articolo da te proposto su ISAM per chiarimenti
sullo Shaolin, afferma:"...The original form of Shaolin Chuan where much
softer than what they later became, sharing a heavier enphasis on internal
develoment as with the taoist martial arts( such as Wu Tang Tai Yi And
others) ...." >>>
Non e' esatto dato che, quando si parla di interno 'neijia' (come gia'
discusso), ci si riferisce ad una scuola ed un 'percorso' ben preciso. Lo
Shaolin originario conteneva certamente caratteristiche interne, ma questo
non giustifica - a mio parere - il fatto di definirlo 'interno' ! Anche Sal
parla di 'internal development' e non pratica interna.
Xisui Qing e Yijing Qing sono esercizi di coltivazione dell'energia che poco
hanno a che spartire con le pratiche 'interne' propriamente dette.
In un'altro articolo su Han Wei N°21 lo stesso autore afferma
[...] (during the Northern Qi Dynasty, 550-577 AD, the monks were recorded
to be able to lift
hundreds of kilograms in weight). >>>
Conosco questo articolo e sono d'accordo con Sal solo in parte. In ogni caso
basta leggere la parte che ho quotato per notare come le pratiche
fondamentali dell'epoca fossero comunque del genere (poi) considerato
'esterno'.
Also, the Mein or Jou(þsoftþ) boxing style was developed at Shaolin as the
internal boxing techniques were separated from the external (marking the
beginning of practicing internal and external KF separately)....">>>
Lo stile Mianquan *pugno di cotone* (suppongo ti riferisca a questo) e' uno
stile propriamente esterno che in parte condivide con gli 'interni' alcuni
principi. Secondo molti praticanti 'esterni' il mianquan e' da considerarsi
interno (in quanto peculariare rispetto al 'classico' Shaolin) ma ti posso
assicurare che tutti i praticanti di Taiji di un certo livello che conosco
sono d'accordo sul considerare il MQ prettamente esterno, nonostante
riconoscano alcune comunanze con la loro scuola.
YM

 d'accordo sul considerare il MQ prettamente esterno,...
Devo essere sincero, non avevo mai letto di nessun autore che considerasse il MQ esterno ma sono contento di aver conosciuto un parere diverso.
                                              Angelo

 MQ esterno ma sono contento di aver conosciuto un parere diverso. >>>
Saro' sincero anch'io: hai letto poco (o male) :-)
Ma cosa hai letto poi (in italiano/inglese/o che suppongo) sul mianquan ?!?
Io parlavo di 'praticanti' + che di 'autori'
ciao
YM

 Io parlavo di 'praticanti' + che di 'autori'
Come praticanti a chi ti riferivi?
                                               Angelo