Newsgroup: it.sport.arti-marziali
Titolo: [CHEN TJQ] applicazioni e marzialità del taijjiquan ??

Su Emptyflower ho trovato questo "vecchio" intervento di Moling, un allievo
di Chen Yu, che più volte ha dimostrato (per quello che si può fare via
forum), una chiara comprensione del chen e delle am cinesi in generale ....
Ho copiato e incollato qui l'intervento sperando che sia una cosa che si
possa fare ....
sono estratti di discussione, e non c'è niente di nuovo e sensazionale, ma
ritengo dovrebbero essere sempre far letti a chi si pone un dubbio come "da
oggetto", e purtroppo non solo neofiti.....
da:
http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=Xing;action=display;num=1086903268
"My question is about category 2 - how many of you have experienced, or are
regularly taught to do Da Lu that include various qinna, strikes, sweeps,
and do you find them useful for real life situations?"
Da Lu is full of Qin na, shuai jiao, sweeping, and striking opportunities.
It just depends whether one wants to train that way, has a teacher that
actually understand it, or can find a partner who wants to train it.
Is it useful? yes very useful.  Is it fighting? no, it is partner drill
method.  The usefulness is found in the body, Jin, strength, and agility
that is developed in the practitioner, as well as the developed ability to
exploit many opportunities of attack and defense from a position of contact
with an opponent.
Da Lu training is basically a "worst case scenario" type of situation from
standing contact.  A lot of the positions are disadvantageous, so they train
how to deal with various forces and structures that are both strenuous and
risky.
  "It's more obvious how category 3 applies in real life fighting, but using
these higher level techniques in category 2 borders on some sort of esoteric
little game only Chen people can play.  Which is fascinating in iteself, but
doesn't seem as practical as training these same applications in a cat. 3 or
in application drilling (hmm, maybe the 4th category) or even sparring."
Well to understand this one needs to shift the perspective a little bit.  To
say that what is useful in fighting is only the training of obvious
applications etc, is not actually going to pan out in real life.
This goes back again to what ones definition of real is of course, but lets
keep this short and sweet, I am only going to bother addressing
violence/self defense situational utility.
*Real* violent situations very rarely present opportunties to actually use
"applications" particularly near to as trained (although application
training and understanding is also of paramount importance in training).  In
such unpredictable moments, what is universally useful is the JIN-trained
strength and motive-action, that depends little on particular "application."
In the case of Taijiquan as I know it, one wants to prepare themselves  for
such a situation by becoming attuned to the workings of one's own body, and
a possible opponents body.  One wants to train to physically, reflexively
understand how both they and an opponents action and body can be used most
effectively.  As well as all that one wants to develop JIN, that will
manifest naturally when faced with contact, force, or action.
In free tuishou, sanshou, and "sparring" etc.. what one has is a situation
of no voluntary opportunity given, and no voluntary risk taken.  If the
opponent wants to Qinna, there is no opportunity freely given, if they want
to strike there is no opening freely given, if one wants to stay safe, they
may, but from this they may never develop such a skill as working from the
position of agreed risk.
In the case of Da Lu type of practice, for starters there is contact given,
there is a position of risk to both parties that is given in terms of easily
being Qinna'd or swept, or struck, or thrown.
Da Lu is a patterned agreed struture that puts both parties in very risky
territory and physical strain at the same time.  It develops sensitivity,
strength, self protection in the most dangerous positions.
It does not work to look at taijiquan and think that one is going to use
what one trains.  it is not like that in my experience.  The stuff you train
that you can directly use is just the superficial...perhaps that is
overstated, I am not sure, but either way,
This is gongfu, one trains for results that are reflexive physicallly
manifested JIN and skill.  Train Da Lu and that sort of difficult pattern of
physical strain and positional risk management.  If that Da Lu gongfu is
traioned well, then in a real situation, one will be naturally very attuned
to the apponent during close stepping, grabbing, being locked, attempts at
sweeps, etc...it does work.  Both defensive and offensive skills and
strengths are developed.
M
 
www.taijigongfu.com
I said; "It does not work to look at taijiquan and think that one is going
to use what one trains. "
I was being careless, I should have said "think that one is goin to...use it
exactly how it is trained"
The training is to develop the JIN and the naturally manifested skil in the
body.  There may be a drill or applied method that trains the skill or
develops the JIN, but this JIN or skill should be able to manifest in
infinite variations of physical action and applicable situations.
Unfortunately, a very vast majority of so called taijiquan available simply
does not even train, understand, or have anything resembling JIN at all.
Most of it has piss poor forms that dont build anything besides a lowered
heart rate and lofty egotosis, and then a set of "applications" that sort of
look like the moves in the form, but have no actual gongfu that is trined
into the body.  In this type of "art" the applications are learned simply by
repetition and memory.  There is no JIN, no GONGFU built into the body.
In this case, people do have to ask, "how do you use it?...is this move,
this form going to be useful?"  The answer is mostly, "NO" but with enough
repetition, it may be in some way.
This is not how I do things so I cannot really vouch for it.  It is not the
way the system is supposed to work.  There are concrete applicational
training that one can do, but they are there for understanding, not
replication in martial situations.
The useable applicable skill is trained through gongfu and is alive-stored
in the body, understood in the mind, and, manifested through natural
involvement with action met, developed over a long time.
A mother and father can produce a baby, but they are not the baby, nor is
the baby a replication of the method they used to create it. The baby
(gongfu) is the expression of the work and natural processes that the
parents and nature put into effect.
gongfu is the expression of the effect that taijiquan practice has on the
human being.  This is one reason this type of practice was called "alchemy"
by Daoists.  They are practices that do not necessarily outwardly reveal
their use at a glance, though are designed through understanding and
experience to produce clear and useful skills or changes in the body and
being.
"Then what could be the point behind training something that in use will not
resemble what you practice?"
I think I may have to get cryptic any moment now...
first ask yourself what could be the point to training, then there may be a
point to asking such a question.
At some point we have to remind ourselves that Chinese gongfu and especially
Neigong came from China and a historically obtuse and esoteric tradition.
Dont just assume that this is something that ought to make sense from the
outside in the same way as every other things you are used to.
If Taijiquan is obvious and makes easy sense it is probably bullshit,
unfortunately this does leave a lot of room for charlatans and myth makers,
but such is life.
Ask this:
does Buddha resemble meditation?
M
 
www.taijigongfu.com

oggetto", e purtroppo non solo neofiti.....
Io invece ho una curiosità. E' una di quelle che non serve a un
beneamato, però, tanto per curiosare...
Metti che mi viene di distinguere nel Taiji tre aspetti:
- marziale (e vabbé... le botte)
- filosofico (tipo, ritorno al Tao etc.)
- salutistico (dice l'immortalità o quel che si sia)
Posto che esistono pratiche non facenti parte del Taiji per il
conseguimento di ciascuno di questi tre obiettivi, e che quindi
possono essere raggiunti singolarmente e indipendentemente l'uno
dall'altro (se così è); fare Taiji implica che necessariamente tutti e
tre questi obiettivi procedono congiuntamente? O se preferisci: è
ancora Taiji se mi dedico, per esempio, solo all'aspetto marziale -
posto che ciò sia possibile?
Ciao
Geppo
--
Non c'è Peggior Troll di Chi non Vuol Capire
(Geppo)


ammesso e non concesso, si !
lo studio del taijiquan, con le modalità i tempi e le condizioni debite, è
un'arte marziale.
che ha come conseguenza altamente probabile quella di un buon atletismo, di
un discreto equilibrio, di una potenziale migliore salute.
l'eventuale dedicarsi allo studio e alla comprensione della sua storia, dei
meccanismi su cui si basa, dei principi che lo hanno ispirato - meglio, cui
si è voluto ricondurlo - etc. etc.
ciascuno è libero di individuare in qualunque pratica un mezzo di elevazione
spirituale o di autoeducazione dello spirito e del corpo, certo vi sono
discipline che vi si prestano meglio  e che nel tempo si sono caricate di
significati enormi quasi fino a stravolgerne l'essenza, come ad esempio la
calligrafia, che è e rimane cmq tale ...
bai
Af

 oggetto", e purtroppo non solo neofiti.....
Good. E' vero niente di nuovo ma un'esame della coscienza ogni tanto non fa
male... Anzi
Stacci dentro, D.

 Stacci dentro, D.
Veramente sono di nuovo outdoor ... 
:)
bai
Af
-- 
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - 
http://www.Mailgate.ORG

 :)
E' arrivata l'estate! E si va tutti di fuori (nel senso buono) e io mi
alleno domattina. Sempre che non piova... ;-)
Bye, D.


Domattina?? Hmm...l'agenda...era...ah ecco...non e' domenica!...mi pareva!
I.

oggetto", e purtroppo non solo neofiti.....
Molto lucido, senza dubbio. Penso che il discorso della "applicazione"
di ciò che si studia sia valido anche per le altre arti marziali, o
almeno questa è la prospettiva con cui io cerco di studiare. Sicuramente
è un punto di vista molto equilibrato sulle relazioni palestra/RL che
tanti flames hanno generato.
A presto
Chicco
P.S. Ho postato raramente e quindi presumo che nessuno si ricordi di me,
mi ripresento: Sono Chicco, pratico Karate Shotokan da due anni (per
ora: ho una forte tentazione di passare al Kyokushin).
"The sands of time were eroded by the river of constant change."


wrote:

ti rispondo brevemente perchè oggi sono incasinato.
secondo me non c'è alcuna distinzione tra questi tre aspetti.
dipende soltanto dal livello di pratica.
se si sa combattere secondo il taiji ad alto livello, si ha anche
l'aspetto salutistico.
se,ad esempio, si sa applicare una leva secondo il taiji, bloccando le
articolazioni e la struttura energetica dell'avversario, si è anche
capaci di intervenire terapeuticamente aiutando a sbloccare eventuali
blocchi.
ovviamente per bloccare il centro dell'avversario è necessario
sviluppare il proprio centro. sviluppare il proprio centro a sua volta
produce effetti sulla salute del proprio corpo ed anche mente.
l'aspetto filosofico o teorico serve da guida per la pratica. se non
si sa a cosa arrivare cosa cercare non si sa come praticare.
viandante