Newsgroup: it.sport.arti-marziali
Titolo: [TJQ] two red lanterns

Articolo citato recentemente da YM.
------------
Two Red Lanterns
By Key Sun, Ph.D. & Leroy Clark
The immortal arrives without shape; moves without form; comes and goes with
no trace. Such is the quality of the expert.
Yang Luchan's empty and flexible method used change, constant change, change
within change; a mind derivative, supreme method. His second son, Yang
Banhou, favored cold and disruptive jins. This, however, was neither honest
nor open. Therefore, father did not consider them seriously. Father said,
"That is not the way a 'true man' behaves. Such jins are not entirely based
on the mind." Taiji is not just about severe practice. One also needs to
think, to comprehend the theory, finally, to develop awareness; awareness
within and without. Taiji emphasizes reservation, energy development and
manipulation, change within change, intention/spirit.
Tian Zhaolin (1891-1960) was hospitalized in Shanghai near the end of his
life. One night, his oldest son Tian Hong and middle son Yingjia, staying
by their father's bed, noted he was suddenly excited after awakening from a
sleep. He told them of a dream he just had, in which, Yang Jianhou and his
son Shaohou approached him. Each was carrying a bright red lantern to
receive him and to welcome him to them after all these years of separation.
Finally, he said he was to going to rejoin them. With that Tian Zhaolin
quietly slipped away. This event showed both his close relationship with the
senior Yang family and his status in their taiji lineage.
Grand Master Tian Zhaolin was a Yang-family taiji direct descendant. He is
one of the most senior non-family students of the Yang family; more senior
than any yet known to the west. Tian Zhaolin's father passed away when he
was an infant. As a young boy of eight years, he had to sell fruit to
support his mother and two sisters. Yang Jianhou (1839-1917), the second son
of Yang style founding father Yang Luchan, noticed him on his walks to the
palace where he taught. He recruited him as his student and also provided
maintenance for young Tian's impoverished family. Thus, from the age of 13
years Tian Zhaolin learned taiji from Yang Jianhou and subsequently from
Jianhou's sons Yang Shaohou (1862-1930) and Yang Chengfu (1883-1936). These
teachers were exceptional and profound taiji grand masters.
Tian Zhaolin had three sons. The eldest Tian Hong was a school teacher.
The middle son, Tian Yingjia became an electrical engineer and also followed
his father in taijiquan. The youngest son, Tian Yingrui became a university
professor in Shanghai. Only Yingjia followed his father's path in
taijiquan. Tian Bingyuan, grandson of Zhaolin, learned taiji from his
father. Yao Guoqin was selected as Master Tian Yingjia's primary student.
Tian Yingjia has 49 disciples and has taught some 500 students in all.
The present article intends to introduce several contributions of Tian
Zhaolin to Yang taiji. It is in part based on knowledge obtained from our
correspondences and conversations with Masters Tian Yingjia and Yao Guoqing
over the last three years.
The Early Years
Once in the Yang family household, Tian Zhaolin was required to participate
around-the-clock in the practice of their internal art. Tian Zhaolin became
a family member. He lived with the Yang family, practiced at all hours day
and night with them, ate with them, and slept with them. The first six
months Zhaolin was made to practice stake (Zhang Zhuang) exercises
exclusively. After that the Master began to teach him the soft, sticky,
energy art.
During those early years, shortly after adopting the young boy, Teacher
Jianhou still taught at the palace and other places around the capital. On
his daily walk to various parts of the city to teach, one always saw a young
boy following a couple steps behind the old master carrying the master's
sword. That young boy was Tian Zhaolin. He occupied a special place in the
household of Yang Jianhou and later became a constant companion of Yang
Shaohou. When Jianhou would learn of his youngest son's (Chengfu) sleeping
in because of his late hours, he would angrily order the young Zhaolin to go
awaken him from his late sleep. Zhaolin practiced alongside Shaohou and
Chengfu directly under the close eye of father Jianhou. During the stake
practice, should one of them move even the slightest, Jianhou would quickly
come over to strike that person sharply with his long-handled smoking pipe.
Similarly, during the practice of jin, should one of them hesitate or stop,
Teacher Jianhou would quickly approach and strike that person sharply with
his pipe. Those hard strikes with the long stem pipe were particularly
painful.
After some seven years of learning and severe practice, in 1911 Teacher
Jianhou ordered Zhaolin to enter a public fight contest representing his
family. Zhaolin was surprised and quickly tried to beg-off, explaining to
his teacher that he did not feel adequately prepared and did not wish to
bring dishonor on the family. Jianhou responded by telling Zhaolin that he
would not have ordered him to enter such a contest if he did not believe he
was well prepared. Tian Zhaolin followed the advice, entered the contest and
won. Once home after the contest, Teacher Jianhou ordered Zhaolin to follow
his eldest son Shaohou from this point onward. Shaohou and Zhaolin were
often seen together around the capital and at martial art exhibitions. Tian
's reputation began to grow after his success in that raw fight competition.
Recognition
Yang Shaohou and Tian Zhaolin were constant companions and were often seen
together around the great capital. Once Shaohou and Zhaolin attended a
martial arts exhibition together. The exhibition was put-on to raise money
for a charity. Western boxing was included in the demonstration. When the
western boxer finished his demonstration, the audience barely applauded.
Then Zhaolin got up on the stage and demonstrated some taiji techniques.
The audience went wild with applause. This offended the western boxer
greatly. He got back up on the stage and demanded to know from the
announcer why his western boxing demonstration received such little
recognition while the taiji demonstration received such good response. The
ring announcer suggested it was probably because so few in the audience
understood western boxing while they did understand martial arts and
taijiquan. With that the bellicose western boxer immediately demanded a
challenge of the martial artist.
Yang Shaohou was sitting alongside Zhaolin at ringside. Zhaolin got back-up
into the ring and told the announcer he was willing to take the western
boxer's challenge. Shaohou shouted up at Zhaolin to knock the guy out of
the ring. The challenge match began. The two fighters approached one
another. Zhaolin started to circle slightly. He held one arm up shoulder
level and extended the other to the front. Suddenly the western boxer
lunged at Zhaolin. Before anyone could see, the western boxer was suddenly
tossed cleanly from the ring. It was as if he was a kite held taunt by a
string when suddenly the string is cut and the kite suddenly jumps out, up
and away cleanly. He was bewildered and did not understand what had
happened.
Certain elderly gentlemen recall seeing Tian Zhaolin teaching in Shanghai
parks. Hour after hour, day after day, Zhaolin would accept all
challengers, without even asking their names or styles, they would approach,
touch arms, and invariably Zhaolin would launch them cleanly away. One
after another, pop, next, pop, next, pop. The sight of that was amazing
according to witnesses.
Another time Tian was participating in a charity event in Shanghai. He
demonstrated lin kong jin (literally: flying in the air energy). An
external adept observer shouted his disbelief and became incensed. He
wanted to challenge him. A relative of Tung Ying Chieh was at hand and
stopped the shaolin master before he could challenge Zhaolin. He knew
Zhaolin would show no mercy and hurt the external martial artist. Grandson
Tian Bingyuan tells of the time some Shanghai gang members came to the Tian
home to challenge his grandfather. As he opened the door the attackers
struck him with an axe injuring Zhaolin. However, Zhaolin quickly deflected
the follow-up strikes and knocked them some distance away. They took off
running and did not return.
Tian Zhaolin and Chen Yenlin
(aka, Chen Yearn Ling or Chen Kung)
One of the most enlightening and widely read books on taijiquan in the west,
as well as in China, has been attributed completely to the late Chen Yenlin.
In fact, in China Chen Yenlin's book has been republished and reworked
several times. Some have claimed Chen learned directly from Yang Chengfu
and that he was a teacher of Chengfu's children. That is incorrect. Chen
Yenlin did not even met Yang Chengfu. Chen Yenlin learned taiji from Tian
Zhaolin for about a year. Prior to this Yenlin had learned a shaolin art.
Chen Yenlin was encouraged to study taiji by his print shop owner Shi Huan
Tang, who was also a taiji student of Tian Zhaolin. Chen Yenlin
subsequently became a student of Tian Zhaolin. Notably, Yenlin wrote a
couplet in honor of his teacher Zhaolin after his departure in 1960.
The work entitled, "Taiji Boxing, Saber, Sword, Spear, and Push-Hands", was
actually co-authored by both Shi Huan Tang and Chen Yenlin, with the
information obtained from Tian Zhaolin. Yenlin would invite ZhaoLin to his
home along with other senior students for dinner. A secretary would be on
hand to record the conversations on taijiquan. All the information came
from Tian Zhaolin. Originally, the book contained pictures of Chen and Shi
pushing-hands. Tian had been asked for pictures but he responded that he
did not know where he had placed them. Tian then asked an artist to make
drawings of his gestures for the book. However, when the book was published
only Chen's photos were included. In addition, Chen Yenlin also didn't give
Shi Huan Tang the credit . Although Chen's demeanor was frowned upon by
Tian's students and Tian Zhaolin himself, the book is acknowledged as being
a good description of the large frame practice of Yang's method. However,
the large frame is but a small portion of the original, complete Yang taiji
practice.
Tian Zhaolin and Taiji's Original Frame
The small frame was the original frame of taijiquan. It was done quickly.
Except for the early members of the family, most notably Yang Luchan,
Banhou, Jianhou, Shaohou, and the adopted Zhaolin, very few people who learn
Yang's tai chi can do the original small frame set.
When Luchan and his sons came to the capital and began teaching, he
separated some of the original curriculum into component parts. Included in
some of those changes, the small frame evolved, and slowed into the middle
frame. Jianhou finalized some of those changes. The large frame is
distinctly different from the middle and small frames in that it is nearly
devoid of circular motion. In fact, this is one of the main distinguishing
features separating the large frame from the middle frame. Third generation
adept Yang Chengfu is credited with most of the development of the large
frame. This was done to popularize taiji. In the original taijiquan there
was only one set. Some on Taiwan claim today that a secret set was taught
to Zhang Qinlin by Jianhou. Such is not the case. Others claim hidden sets
were taught by Jianhou's brother Banhou to special students in the Kuang
Ping area. This is also simply not true. Originally, the taiji taught to
Yang Luchan was the small frame. In fact, whether the frame is done as
middle or small or even large depends entirely on the maturity of the
student's practice; nothing more, nothing less. The popular Master Tung
Ying Chieh spoke to this in his 1948 work.
As beginning students develop maturity of practice the large frame acquires
many circular features and evolves into the middle frame. Finally, with
much more practice the small frame is generated. Key to the practice as
counseled by Yang Jianhou is the exercise Eight Pieces of Brocade. Jianhou
also advised that the set is the external side of taiji and meant only to
lead the student to better energy development and usage. He said the goal
of taijiquan is finally to leave the set as one incorporates the practice
into one's daily walk and activities. Jianhou also taught that energy is
round; strength is square.
Tian Zhaolin was recognized by Yang Jianhou as the most skillful among the
three best students of his family's teaching. They were Tian Zhaolin, Li
Yaxuan and Niu Chun Ming. Tian and Niu notably achieved the skill of being
able to keep a bird from flying from their palms.
------------

 Ying Chieh spoke to this in his 1948 work.
hmm...
bah
YM

 Yang Luchan was the small frame.
Ammiro tanta sicurezza, soprattutto nel ritenere claim sempre quelli degli
altri :-)
Articolo interessante cmq
ciao
--------------------------------
Inviato via 
http://arianna.libero.it/usenet/

 Articolo interessante cmq
[SNIP]
leroy clark ha scritto diversi articoli su Tai-chi magazine ed è uno storico
del TJQ.
questo articolo apparso sul tai-chi magazine di dicembre 2003 è un sunto di
comunicaizoni avute da eroy con allievi di Yang Janhou, Yang Banhou e Tian
yingjia.
Almeno così stava scritto....
i claim non sono sue affermazioni ma degli altri....:-)))
ldb

 yingjia
credo quasi esclusivamente con Yingjia nello specifico
calcola inoltre che Fu Zhongwen, dal quale Leroy deriva principalmente in
quanto a lineage, e' quotato da Shen Shou che dice "negli anni 60 chiesi a
Fu Zhongwen specificatamente circa l'esistenza della Small Frame nel
curriculum di Banhou. Fu Zhongwen rispose che [dalla nascita dello stile
Yang con Yang Luchan in avanti, attraverso Banhou, Jianhou e la
standardizzazione di Yang Chengfu in tarda eta' e' sempre esistita una sola
forma "large frame", nessuna altra forma ne' tantomeno una "middle frame" o
una "small frame"]"
Fatti conto ...
YM

 Fatti conto ...
[SNIP]
ritengo la discussione un contributo alla conoscenza di tutti.
Dato che ho visto più di una diecina di articoli con traduzioni firmati
Leroy Clark ho ritenuto che fossero sue traduzioni.
Immagino che tu lo conosca personalmente o attraverso terzi per sostenere il
contrario.
Sempre per condividere informazioni sul tema cito una traduzione di Leroy
del capitolo 10 (lui parla di paragraph 10) dal "Tai Ji Quan Yi Shi" di DYJ
----
Tung explains that 3 different frames comprise Yang's tcc - the large, the
small, and the middle frame. Then he says, actually if one's tcc is mature,
one can make their frame higher or lower, quicker or slower, according to
one's skill. Forty years ago, the author (TYC) saw tcc performed by Master
Soa Lin of which the forms were compact and well-knit and neither quick nor
slow as compared to the forms people are doing now. Soa Lin was the son of
Feng Hou, the eldest son of Yang Lu Chan. Soa Lin's form was taught by Ban
Hou.
(poster note - recently saw /translated another description of Soa Lin's tcc
by yet another tcc mainlander student) Yang Chengfu's frame was extensive,
soft, and slow; while Yang ShaoHao's frame was compact and quicker.
I learned the good points from these three masters and finally created my
own. My frame is condensed and neither quick nor slow and was created after
my maturity in tcc.
----
dato che tu hai copia del libro di DYJ potresti confermare o negare queste
affermazioni sue ? Questo solo per verificare se l' allievo più anziano di
YCF ha scritto queste affermazioni.
lü dongbin
---
omnia mutantur

 una "small frame"]"
[SNIP]
ho ridato un'occhiata al sito di Peter Lim ed ho trovato questo passaggio
nella sua storia del TJQ
---
The Old Yang Form
This is the form that was taught by Yang Lu Chan when he began teaching in
Yung Nien. It is also the form taught by Yang Ban Hou and Yang Jian Hou
initially. This form still exists today, as do several other older sets
which were subsequently dropped because they added nothing to the content of
the art, their essences having been incorporated into the large frame. These
other sets are the Yang 13 Pao Chui set and the Lift Legs form. Though the
latter could have come down to us as the Taiji Long Boxing Form.
Yang Lu Chan and his sons taught the small frame in the Imperial Court and
taught the large frame outside it. The Small Frame is not an inferior set
but a variation of the large frame to allow combat and practice to be
performed in the long sleeved, long skirted imperial robes worn by members
of the imperial court. This small frame comes down to us today primarily
from Yang Ban Hou's student Quan Yu and his son Wu Jian Quan.
The Later Yang Form
At a later period of time, both Yang Ban Hou and Yang Jian Hou changed their
forms slightly and in the same way. We don't know if the initiator of this
slight modification is Yang Lu Chan, though its certainly possible. Some of
the changes was the way the `Grasp Sparrow's Tail' postures were done and
the removal of `Turn Body Double Lift Legs' and replacing it with `Deflect
Downwards, Parry And Punch' and `Right Kick With Heel'10.
---
Ripensando anche alla forma Wu (di Wu yuxiang) che *dovrebbe* essere
derivata per una grossa parte da YLC prima versione essa è effettivamente
diversa nell'esecuzione delle due suddette posture. (poi è diversa anche nel
*respingere la scimmia*, sempre a memoria)


 i claim non sono sue affermazioni ma degli altri....:-)))
Personalmente ritengo che per i motivi spesso lungamente dibattuti il
termine 'storico' per questo come altri ricercatori sia un pò forte (senza
polemica sia chiaro) per il resto i claim non mi scandalizzano
particolarmente dato nelle culture tradizionali rappresentano più la regola
che l'eccezione, talvolta inoltre contengono riferimenti comunque validi e
degni di nota, resto semplicemente perplesso quando dei ricercatori
occidentali li citano a supporto di tesi storiche tutto qui.
saluti


 affermazioni sue ?
boh, il libro non e' diviso in capitoli/paragrafi numerati
l'unica parte in paragrafi "parole d'esperienza" al paragrafo 10 parla
d'altro
YM

 The Later Yang Form
[...]
non condivido praticamente nulla, per cui evito di approfondire
YM


ah lascia fare, gente che non crede che lo yang venga dal chen  dallo
lasciali fare ...
;-)
Af
Btw rimpatriate ?

 non condivido praticamente nulla, per cui evito di approfondire
[SNIP]
STOP.
Dato che non parliamo di dogmi avrei piacere di capire.
lü dongbin
---
omnia mutantur
PS
In privato se in pubblico non ti aggrada.

 Dato che non parliamo di dogmi avrei piacere di capire.
il tuo quote da' 1000 riferimenti
replicare sarebbe lungo
YM

 Btw rimpatriate ?
no, perche' ?!?
YM


E' una domanda, che presuppone nelle lingue romanze una risposta, non
un'altra domanda :-PP
era usata nel senso: hai mica in progetto di ?
E non: lo fate vero ?
bai
Af

 E non: lo fate vero ?
no, allora no
comunque in genere non faccio mai progetti a lungo termine
e quello comunque sarebbe compreso negli "eventuali" proprio alla voce
"lungo termine"
e tu a proposito, quando arrivi da queste parti ?
;-)
YM

 replicare sarebbe lungo
ARGHHH.
Ti tolgo il saluto per i prossimi 50 posts. A proposito come vanno le
influenze dei polli in quel di HK. Secondo i ritmi cinesi dovrebbe essercene
una tra poco: chissà che non fai felice *lao zzi* et me scappando in quel
d'Itaglia.
maang2 ngon1 (cantonese. ma non provarti a rispondere)


vale quanto hai detto te ... ieri alle 7 sembrava dovessi ritrovarmi Lucas
per casa dopo un'ora, ora invece sembra tutto saltato (fino alla prossima
ovviamente)
senza contare che lo sparuto gruppo di pellegrini con cui verrei sta ancora
lottando per recuperare i soldi sequestrati dall'agenzia causa SARS ... !!!
bona
Af

 maang2 ngon1 (cantonese. ma non provarti a rispondere)
anche volendo ...
YM

 lottando per recuperare i soldi sequestrati dall'agenzia causa SARS ...
!!!
quarantena monetaria ?


esatto funziona cosě, gli dai un itinerario, gli dici i posti e scegli i
trasferimenti.
Loro organizzano il viaggio, nel senso che fanno da segreteria organizzativa
...
Arriva l'allarme .... la gente si ritira.
Il viaggio non si fa.
Secondo me: porc# tr### perdo la cauzione
Secondo loro: eh no, ora ci devi dare il saldo
In un paese veramente civile sarebbe finita come tra il buon Lu Da con
l'impresario teatrale ..
Qui invece sono quasi passati due anni !!!

Centro tutela consumatori ?? ;-))
Da noi c'è e funzina molto bene. Non so da voi in Itaglia. ;-)))
ldb


che ci vuoi fare, ogni America ha il suo Messico, sennņ come farebbe ...
:-)
Af

Hello, lü!
You wrote  on Tue, 13 Apr 2004 11:35:42 +0200:
 ld> The immortal arrives without shape; moves without form; comes and goes
 ld> with no trace. Such is the quality of the expert.
Chi sa da dove ha tratto questa citazione? (nessuna ironia, m'interessa
davvero)
btw, Leroy non manca occasione per farsi riconoscere :-)
Ciao.
With best regards, Southerne.  E-mail: 
not...@to.do

 btw, Leroy non manca occasione per farsi riconoscere :-)
[SNIP]
he !
vallo tu a sapere ! ;-)))
Cmq se ti serve ho il suo indirizzo di posta. In caso scrivimi in private.
che la forza sia con te
ldb

 che l'eccezione
questo e' sicuramente vero, sopratutto nella Cina tradizionale
e' anche vero pero' che in passato i claims erano tenuti "in famiglia"
certo la societa' era differente e non c'era internet ... pero' nessuno si
sarebbe sognato di mettere per iscritto, o divulgare apertamente,
affermazioni del tipo
"Some on Taiwan claim today that a secret set was taught to Zhang Qinlin by
Jianhou. Such is not the case. Others claim hidden sets were taught by
Jianhou's brother Banhou to special students in the Kuang Ping area. This is
also simply not true"
quelli (i pochi) che lo facevano erano (dovevano) sempre rispondere delle
loro affermazioni nel giro di breve tempo
YM

 
esatto.
da quando queste cose non si possono più fare, o meglio si possono fare
senza però farlo sapere troppo a giro, sono cominciate le famose
questioni sul chen ...
:-PPPPPPPPP
A proposito lo sai cos'è successo al so-tutto-io delle cma interne
quando ha tentato di far passare uno dei "lohan" per un coglione ?
'bona
Af
- mi avete preso per un coglione
- no sei un eroe
- mi avete preso per un coglione
- no sei un eroe
- mi avete preso per un coglione
- no sei un eroe
 etc. etc. qui diventa volgare ...
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