Newsgroup: it.sport.arti-marziali
Titolo: Shaolin dei monaci

Chi di voi mi sa dire che c'è una palestra a Milano o hinterland di cui si
pratica il vero Shaolin dei monaci Tibetani?
--------------------------------
Inviato via 
http://arianna.libero.it/usenet/

 pratica il vero Shaolin dei monaci Tibetani?
Ah, c'e' la palestra di Strix, fatti dire da lei!!
...
Nimror
Ps
Ciao Vin, massi e gianpi  ; }

>> pratica il vero Shaolin dei monaci Tibetani?
che c'entrano i tibetani ?

Quando hanno raso al suolo la prima volta il monastero di Shaolin si sono
salvati solo 7 monaci.
Uno di essi è finito nel monastero di Tashilhunpo (secondo monastero del
Tibet prima del'invasione cinese) dove ha insegnato ai Khampas (popolo
guerriero della regione di Kham) la nobile arte.
lü dongbin
----
omnia mutantur
aiuto per l'interpretazione:
1) Contenuti: basati solo su esperienza personale - altro viene quotato con
[cit.]
2) Linguaggio: italiano - altro viene quotato con ".."
3) Forma: contenuti specifici dove la forma cambia viene quotato [mode
...ON/OFF]
4) Risposte: viene sempre risposto a tutti i messaggi educati e
costruttivi - altro viene ignorato

 che c'entrano i tibetani ?
che ne so...
...
Nimror

leviamo il "tibetani" e lasciamo monaci...riformulo la domanda, qualcuno sa
se a Milano o nell'hinterland si insegna il loro Shaolin?
Da quel poco che ne so non mi sembra che lo Shaolin insegnato da chi fa
riferimento al Maestro Chang sia la stessa cosa, magari mi sbgalio...


> pratica il vero Shaolin dei monaci Tibetani?
Shaolin dei monaci Tibetani????????? Spiega che non sapevo che
in Tibet si facessero AM o affini....

guerriero della regione di Kham) la nobile arte.
grazie

 pratica il vero Shaolin dei monaci Tibetani?
Lo shaolin non esiste
i monaci shaolin non sono tibetani
i monaci tibetati sono non violenti.... al limite di danno fuoco con la
benzina.
Jack (Hung Gar)
"Sei troppo vecchio per smettere di allenarti!" (un amico)
www.hunggar.too.it
-- 
questo articolo e` stato inviato via web dal servizio gratuito 
http://www.newsland.it/news
 segnala gli abusi ad 
ab...@newsland.it

 salvati solo 7 monaci.
non erano 5?


1) I monaci sono della regione dello Sichuan se non sbaglio e il loro
shaolin esiste eccome, è da li che tutto ha avuto inizio (la favola ve la
racconto un'altra volta magari prima che vi addormentiate :)
2) i monaci che si davano fuoco con la benzina (povera gente) erano
buddisti vietnamiti poco prima dell'inizio della guerra ed in occasione di
un colpo di stato.
3) Non sono di Milano ma a quanto ne so il luogo più vicino dove non si
pratichi lo Shaolin del maestro Chang è proprio il monastero di Shaolin in
Cina.
Cmq qualsiasi cosa scegli insisti affinchè ti venga insegnato anche il Qi
Gong altrimenti mi dispiace dirlo...non è shaolin.
Ciao
Andrea
Jack Burton ha scritto:


racconto un'altra volta magari prima che vi addormentiate :)
infatti esistono molte favole sui monaci di Shaolin ma pochi fatti,
quel che è certo è che gli attuali monaci non sono monaci ma atleti
(molto bravi sicuramente) impiegati dal governo per fare spettacoli in
giro per il mondo e che il 'monastero' di shaolin attualmente è una
località turistica più affolata di Capri in estate.
La scuola Chang è diffusa soprattutto in Italia settentrionale, già al
centro sud è più rara, ho seri dubbi che copra tutto lo spazio
geografico che ci serpara dalla Cina.
ciao


Biancaneve e i 5 nani in effetti suonerebbe male ...

 Andrea
ciao
Af

benzina.
non erano tibetani ma vietnamiti

 Gong altrimenti mi dispiace dirlo...non è shaolin.
"quello originale del tempio" (cit.)
perche rispondi a me?..io non ho chiesto dove fare shaolin.


 benzina.
Che peraltro č un bel modo di passare il tempo.
Sempre meglio che andare al bar.
Ciao
Ale
-- 
Namįriė Valinor

 honan.
hEnan.
Af
non per pignoleria ma si rischia l'equivoco con hUnan

 non per pignoleria ma si rischia l'equivoco con hUnan
Direi che l'equivoco più grosso si rischia con Onan, che, più che un
marzialista, era una mezza sega.
Ciao
Ale
-- 
Namárië Valinor

 marzialista, era una mezza sega.
ti riferisci al padre spirituale dell'o-nan-ismo ?


Già erano 5 di cui una era la monaca Ng mui che creò il wing chun.

 hEnan.
honan va' benissimo perche' e' il wide giles corrispondente al pinyin henan
YM

 ha scritto nel messaggio
news:caoqln$ctc$1...@news.newsland.it...


Se hai voglia di leggere....la vera (?!?) storia di shaolin
[cit. 
http://www.shaolin.com.au/history.htm
]
The Establishment of Shaolin
Toward the end of the 5th Century AD an Indian Buddhist monk by name of Ba
Tuo was traveling through China teaching Buddhism, helping and guiding. His
great wisdom and kindness came to the ears of the Emperor who summoned Ba
Tuo to come to him.
Exact details of what happened at this meeting is not entirely clear but is
seems that Ba Tuo was offered a place in the palace and riches, and
encouraged to continue his teachings. Ba Tao kindly declined this offer and
asked for a piece of land far away from any 'civilised place in the province
of Henan on the side of the Song sang Mountain. There was given a large
piece of land and resources to build a monastery in an area called 'Wooded
Hill or Small Forest which translates to Shaolin in Mandarin or Sil-Lum in
Cantonese.
Introduction of Physical Exercise
In about 539 AD, a holy man named Bodidarama (later called Ta Mo by the
Chinese) left his monastery in Southern India to spread the Buddhist faith
to China, later called Ch'an Buddhism. (Ch'an is the Chinese translation for
the Sanskrit word "dhyana" meaning Yogic concentration, also known as Zen in
Japanese to where it migrated from China.). After traveling hundreds of
miles to reach Northern China and crossing the Himalayan mountains and the
Yangtze River, he headed North to Loyang, the capital of Henan Province.
There of course he found the Shaolin Ssu (Temple). It was, 40 years after
it's founding, and had become famous for scholarly translations of Indian
Buddhist scripture into Chinese. Bodidarama sought entrance to Shaolin but
the abbot of the day, Fang Chang would not let him into the temple (as many
sought entrance for various reasons).
Bodidarama was determined to enter and see the Shaolin Ssu. He located to a
nearby cave on the side of a mountain (this cave can be visited when in
Henan/Shaolin as well as climbing to the top where a 40 foot Buddha is
erected in honour of Ta Mo), where (it is said) he sat in meditation facing
a stone wall. From this event many versions exist including;
That he sat facing a wall for most of the next nine years at the end of
which Bodidarama's deep blue piercing eyes had apparently drilled a gaping
hole in the cliff wall. (we did not find such a hole but we did find what
seemed to be a permanent shadow)
That he fell asleep meditating and his eye lids closed and when he awoke he
was so distraught that he cut of his eye lids so that this would not happen
again (but this would be against Buddhist teaching and he was a
devoteBuddhistt!).
That he was visited by monks (initially secretly as they were interested in
the 'foreigner') and was even supplied with food and water; and that he in
this way was able to demonstrate his knowledge and skill of Buddhism to such
a degree that he was finally (after 9 years?) admitted to the into the
temple.
Irrespective of which stories was true, it is clear that Fang Chang at some
time relented and allowed Bodidarama entry into the temple Shaolin.
Upon gaining entrance to Shaolin. Ta Mo (as he was now called by the
Chinese) saw that the monks were weak and could not perform the rigorous
meditations he expected that Buddhist Monks should be practicing. Whilst
meditating they often fell asleep or were very restless and were not
achieving inner calm or peace (which is required to reach Enlitenment, that
for which all Buddhist strive!).
He spent some time in seclusion pondering the problem. Considering the time
and health awareness at the time Ta Mo came to a staggeringly accurate
conclusion, that the monks were not fit to meditate. With this in mind he
started working on a solution; he created three treaties of exercises.
These in-place exercises were later transcribed by monks as;
"The Muscle Change Classic" or "The Change of the Sinews,"
"The Marrow Washing"
"The Eighteen Hand Movements later named The Eighteen Lohan Shou (Lohan
meaning enlightened)
and marked the beginning of Shaolin Temple Kung Fu (meaning hard work and
perfection). Ta Mo later devised some self-defense movements based on his
knowledge of Indian fighting systems (Bodidarama was born an Indian Prince
and was well versed in Yoga and Indian Kung Fu).
Shaolin Kung Fu
Many of the Shaolin priests were retired soldiers and generals thus Ta Mo's
teachings were enriched and refined by these martial art masters and thus it
slowly developed in to a martial art of the hands also known as Shaolin
Ch'uan [Shaolin Fist] or Shaolin Ch'uan Fa [Way of the Shaolin Fist]).
Shaolin was not a poor temple by this time and was regularly attacked by
peasant armies (since individuals had no chance to penetrate Shaolin
defences and walls). Often to enrich it's knowledge Shaolin would invite
wandering healers, scholars and now also martial art masters into it's walls
to learn from these by sharing knowledge and skills!
Shaolin became very apt at kung fu and in repelling the attacking bandits.
And slowly but surly the Shaolin became renown for their martial arts
prowess and fighting ability. It is to be noted that not all Shaolin Monks
were warrior monks but that monks choose to specialise in areas of
expertise, much like university professors. Although at this time all
practiced kung fu, not all were totally focused on the practical aspect of
the art, only the Warrior Monks. It is also interesting to note that Shaolin
preferred not to hurt their assailants as this would have ramifications for
their spirituality in this life and the next!
Only a further 30 years later Shaolin was closed and forbidden and it took
some 30 years, around 600AD, before it was reopened.
The Second Temple
Built around the same time as the Henan Temple, the Fukien Temple was
integrated into mainstream Shaolin around 650 AD and became the 'Second
Temple" of Shaolin. It was/is a much larger temple than the one in Henan and
served as the second main temple in times where Henan was destroyed or
occupied by other than Buddhists and Shaolin.
The 13 Champions
In 698 AD Emperor T'ai Tsung of the Tang dynasty called upon the fighting
monks of Shaolin to aid him in his war against General Wang-Shih-Chung, who
had gathered a large army in an attempt to oust the Tang emperor from the
Imperial throne. Li Shimini, the Emperors son was leading the army against
Tang. Tang managed to capture the Emperors son and was inflicting great
damage to tangs army.
Tang sent a message to the Shaolin temple to help him and save his son. 13
monks were sent to answer their emperor's plea although in fact it may have
been a much larger force (113 monks or so). Even though this amount of
Shaolin monks sent was small (the enemy's army counted 10,000 men) the
remaining Tang army was victorious, the enemy was beaten back and decimated
and the Emperors son was saved.
In recognition of their great action T'ai Tsung awarded the monks land, and
bestowed upon the temple the title, 'Number One" temple in China.
Later that so saved son, Li Shimini, succeeded his father and a very strong
bond was forged between the Imperial court and Shaolin. Regular interchange
and training between high ranking soldiers and graduate Shaolin Warrior
Monks saw further development of Shaolin Kung Fu and the integration of the
secret Imperial (Eagle) Kung Fu into Shaolin knowledge and skills.
72 Movements
A couple of hundred years later a rich young noble and experienced martial
artist, entered the Shaolin Monastery and assumed the name of Chueh Yuan. He
soon devoted all his studies to the further development of Shaolin kung fu
and fitness training. Within a few years he revised the 18 Fists of Lo Han
and created what he called the 72 Styles or Movements. His methods and
teaching were so successful that his 72 fists were adopted by all Shaolin
monks very quickly. The 72 movements were very effective for both internal
and external fitness. They incorporated much of what is being taught today.
But Chueh Yuan was still not fully satisfied with this and he went out to
teach and learn, looking for Masters of other styles.
This later than become common practice for Shaolin. Shaolin adepts were sent
out to share Buddha's teaching and help the poor(much like the founder of
Shaolin). It was also a test though as many would be Shaolin were tempted by
worldly pleasures and did not return. Those that did became the Priests and
bough many new skills, knowledge and wisdom from their travels!
The Third Temple
It's also around this time that the third temple was integrated into the
Shaolin order. The Wutang Tiger Temple was located in the politically
unstable area near Manchuria and the Korean Peninsular. It was often being
besieged or attacked, and the monks there were very versed with the
practical aspect of war, weaponry and defence. The Wutang (Wutang, Wu Tang .
. . ) temple was very old and integrated into Shaolin around 800 AD.
170 Movements
On his travels Chueh Yuan witnessed how a 60 year old traveler was being
attacked by a bandit. He saw how the attacker landed an apparently very
strong kick to the body of the traveler with very little or no effect. And
yet the old man only used two fingers against the bandit's leg sending the
attacker to the ground, seemingly unconscious by the time Cheuh reached the
old traveler.
This maneuver obviously impressed Chuen enormously and he introduced himself
to the senior. Much to his surprise the old man did not know much of martial
arts and what little he knew was taught to him by the local master Pai
Yu-feng.
Pai Yu-feng was a friendly 50 year old and Chuen convinced him to accompany
him back to his temple. Over the next few years they, using the 18 fists,
the 72 movements and these 'pressure point techniques' redeveloped Shaolin
Kung Fu into the 170 exercises that became one of the foundation of Shaolin
Kung Fu as we know it (and is still taught first before the 5 Animal Styles
are taught).
The Time of the Ming Dynasty
The time of the Ming Dynasty was a (so called) golden area in China's arts
history. Many works of art were created that still exist and are now
considered priceless. Philosophy and knowledge was thought in all to a
fairly equal degree. During this time the Shaolin Temples also grew and
prospered becoming the centre for teaching, philosophy, history, Buddhism,
mathematics, poetry and of course martial arts. Many monks, wise persons and
travelling martial artists would gain entrance to Shaolin and share their
knowledge in return for Shaolin knowledge and shelter.
At this time, Shaolin reached it's peek. Each Temple was like university of
Buddhism, health and the finer arts. Each temple had several Shaolin Masters
who were experts or specialists in a particular area of training, well being
or philosophy. Rich Chinese would send their sons (and later even Daughters)
to Shaolin to become students (no priests) and learn from the best in every
field.
Shaolin adepts would also undergo a rigorous test before they were
considered ready to leave the temple on their journey years. In order to
graduate from the temple, they would have to exhibit phenomenal skills and
pass through 18 testing chambers in the temple (which were possibly more
symbolic in nature as no evidence was found in any of the Shaolin Temples of
any such rooms). Although it is dramatised in movies, Shaolin would actually
be brought to the brink of exhaustion through a serious of 18 tests, 6 each
physical, mental and spiritual (thus the 18 chambers). It is even possible
that one of these physical tests, the last one was the lifting of a hot
cauldron with their bare forearms (each temple had traditionally such a
cauldron, unique for each temple). This cauldron would not have been plain
and would possibly have the raised relief of symbolic animals which would
thus be burnt into the graduating monks arms (as a reminder to them of their
trials). Varied accounts suggest that these cauldrons may have had the
following symbols on them;
Wutang Temple- A Tiger and Dragon for Martial Art Prowess
Henan Temple- Dragon and Phoenix for universal balance/Yin Yang
Kwan Tung Temple - Two Dragons for their clones to the Emperor
O Mai Shan Temple - Two Cranes as they were close to the Tibetan border and
a healing temple
Fukien Temple - (no record or anything found for this temple)
These marks were the signs of a Shaolin graduate. (Not all who entered
Shaolin graduated in the full 18 chambers, many were only lay priests or
guests, especially towards the end of the Ming Dynasty).
This is also the time when the original 170 movements were redefined into
the 5 Animal Style, Ng Ying Ga Kung Fu.
5 Animal Styles
A martial art expert named Zhue Yuen joined the Shaolin. He noticed that the
kung fu practiced in Shaolin was unbalanced, tending strongly to the hard
external style. Zhue Yuen traveled China in search of martial art styles and
found many that he learned and evaluated. But it wasn't until he reached the
town of Lan Zhau and met Li Sou that anything happened.
Li Sou introduced Zhue Yuen to Bai Yu Feng who was another famous martial
artist practitioner. Zhue Yuen was able to convince both to come back with
him to Shaolin to develop kung fu. Together they redeveloped Shaolin kung fu
to the 5 animal style (Tiger, Snake, Dragon, Leopard and Crane).
Although originally just exercise and kung fu styles. Over the next few
hundred years the Shaolin were able to discover and develop the 5 Animal
Style system to be metaphors for human situation handling, interaction,
problem solving, planning and much much more (much of which was lost with
the second burning of Shaolin and only the external kung fu aspect was
cultivated and maintained; but more to that later).
The 4th temple
It is at around this time that the 4th temple was added to the order of
Shaolin. The O Mei Shan (Great White Mountain) was a devoted library and
medical temple. It was located in a very inaccessible area of Szechwan
province. Very much like the other temples used to import kung fu masters,
the O Mei Shan temple imported healers.
O Mei Shan was in close contact with the Crane Temple in Tibet and a major
medical temple with books, tombs and scrolls from east and west. It is
probably the temple that burnt in the symbols of 2 Cranes on to the forearms
instead of having the traditional Dragon one of the two animals, as in the
other three temples in the 18th Chamber principle!
The Invaders
The Great wall and Chinas army was mostly successful in repelling invaders
but around mid 17th century, invaders from Manchurian, lead by the Ching
Family, ended China's Golden area, and the Ming Dynasties reign. They slowly
but surly and brutally took control of China and systematically eradicated
all resistance. Many Chinese nobles, warriors and commoners were forced
underground where they sought to oust the invaders and reinstate the
prosperous Ming Dynasty.
There were a significant number of factions among the Chinese who aided the
Manchus against Ming loyalists, in large part because the Manchus held to
the same ideology, governmental patterns, and social organization as the
Ming. By the early 1600's the Ming dynasty was significantly weakened. It
was unable to cope with both its own internal tensions and the militarily
strong 50's to the northeast.
An internal rebellion was the direct cause of the downfall of this dynasty
(Chinese rebel Li Tzu-ch'eng seized Peking in 1644). That the Dutchmen were
able to capitalize on this by being invited to put down the rebellion by a
frontier general is largely coincidental. The Great Wall was hardly so
impregnable that they would not have been able to invade and conquer the
area in its weakened state.
Thus the Manchus found the entrance to China and slowly but steadily
conquered China. Those that did not wish to conform had to either migrate or
go underground, some also sough refuge in the Shaolin temples.
Shaolin initially only offered passive resistance against the invaders
seeking to remain above the political matters. It helped anyone who sought
refuge and thus involuntary became a safe haven for refugees and resistance
fighters. The Manchu's also had 5 classes of people clearly defined;
The Manchu Ruler and his family
The Manchu Nobles and their families
Manchurians in general
Northern Chinese
Southern Chinese
Many Ming loyal soldiers and nobles sought refuge and help in Shaolin.
Shaolin, although themselves passive became a enter of resistance. This was
a thorn in the invaders side and needed to be dealt with, drastically, but .
. .
The 2nd Burning of Shaolin
Shaolin was strong, their reputation great and their support from commoners
even stronger. But finally in 1647 AD, through betrayal of an insider and
large amounts of Ching loyal troops, armed with cannons, the original
Shaolin temple in Henan was almost utterly destroyed. The monks who remained
to defend were slaughtered, many fled to the Fukien Temple and for 30 years
continued their resistance and their support of resistance fighters. This in
turn led to the destruction of the Fukien temple, the remaining major
temples and most of the lesser temples as well as the destruction of Shaolin
text's. (these events have inspired many 'Shaolin Temple' movies including
Shaolin Mystagogue!)
From this time onwards Shaolin were outlawed and any practice of Shaolin
Kung Fu punishable by death. Much was lost. Most of the priceless scrolls of
Shaolin Kung Fu and teaching and many treasures of knowledge and wisdom.
Shaolin monks and lay persons were now split into many directions, all
initially operating in secret. These were those that;
continued their resistance and taught Kung Fu for the sole purpose of
fighting and defeating the Chins. They were the fathers of secret resistance
organisations know as the 'Triads', so named after a gift of the Ming
Dynasty Emperor to the Shaolin of a jade triangle.
were devoted to the art. These passed down their learning from father to son
or most apt student. In this process much was lost but enough was
maintained. Non of these styles is all of Shaolin but each have key
elements.
reverted to being 'just' Buddhist priests.
migrated to many other countries including the US, and many oriental
countries including Japan, Indonesia, Malaise, Taiwan, etc...
Many great Chinese Fighting Martial Artist cam to be famous during this time
of strife and resistance (mid 17th Century to 1899), some gaining great
notoriety. Among these were Hung Hei-Kwun and his teachers from the temple,
the Monk Sam Tak and the Abbot Chi Zin. But Shaolin monks were now outlawed.
They had to go into hiding and could no longer be 'Shaolin' monks openly.
This is a time when Tai Chi 'styles' flourished, a way of secretly training
and teaching Kung Fu. The techniques were disguised, movements slowed,
stances and toughness hidden.
The Reopening of Shaolin
Around a century or more later, towards the start of 19th Century, the
Shaolin Temples were reopened and included the 5th Shaolin Temple Kwantung
(located around 200 km's southwest of Fukien).
But the rulers of the day were still fearful of the power of the Fighting
Shaolin Monks. They only allowed Shaolin to be used as a purely religious
purposes without allowing any Kung Fu or other martial art training. The
underground, no longer Shaolin but Ming loyalists, were still very busy
making life hard for the Chings. The final big overthrow was to be the Boxer
Rebellion in 1899 AD.
The Boxer rebellion was to overthrow the Ching Dynasty and reinstate the
original descendant of the Ming Dynasty. The Boxer rebellion was a total
disaster. The Manchu's now armed with hand guns and rifles totally destroyed
the Boxers (the Brits called this 'funny' style of fighting Boxing and it
stuck!)only armed with their Kung Fu. This was the death of the Chinese
resistance. Some triad members escaped to other countries, including the US,
Korea, etc. Without a focus some/many triad members went into a new line of
business . . . This caused another influx of Chinese martial arts into the
Orient, the US and now also the new continent Australia.
The 3rd Burning of Shaolin
As with the previous times, Shaolin influence, power and Kung Fu (although
officially forbidden and punishable by death) was still feared and
forbidden. This possibly led to the 3rd Burning of Shaolin in 1927 AD during
Chiang Kai Check's reign.
Chiang Kai Check himself was a great believer of Kung Fu and although he
forbade all martial art practice he surrounded himself with Kung Fu fighting
masters as his body guard. When he was being threatened and ousted by the
new forming Chinese Republic he packed up as much of Chinese treasure as he
could, took his wife (who recently died in the US aged 105) and 100 masters
and moved to Taiwan. His arrival had a key influence on that country
Cultural Revolution
The cultural revolution was against all matter of religion and martial arts
or anything that would allow individually, resistance or free thought. If
you were seen to be preaching or teaching any other than Mao's' words, you
were immediately re-educated or imprisoned.
This was more disastrous to Shaolin Kung Fu than any of the other times as
it attacked Shaolin teachings and style on all fronts not just Kung Fu but
also Buddhism and any type of organization other than Mao's. This was the
final death of Shaolin!
3rd Are of Shaolin
After many successful Chinese Kung Fu movies by Bruce Lee (opening Kung Fu
to the world) and Jacky Chan (introducing the concept of Shaolin) and in
particular Jet Li in the movie Shaolin Temple, Officials in Beijing (means
Northern capitol originally know as Peeking) started to realize the
potential of Shaolin a a marketing tool but also as heritage! But the fear
and distrust of Shaolin, its Kung Fu and power was deep. They knew though
that they needed some type of 'replacement', some type of art other than Tai
Chi and Chi Kung that was hard, external and athletic to fill this
emptiness. This was the 'popular' birth of Wu Shu.
A respected Chinese official was given the task of breathing life back into
Shaolin. As with many Chinese decisions it was both a pragmatic decision as
well as a financial and historical. The key was to have an art that was
dynamic and in spirit of Shaolin but not Kung Fu. Wushu was ideal for this
purpose. it embodied the spirit of Shaolin by providing all the requirements
for health and well being that Kung Fu did but focused more on flow and
athleticism rather than technique and fighting. Wu Shu has grown and
developed and with the many versions and adaptations of kung fu, in some
cases there is very little difference between the two.
There was a problem though as Shaolin and it's idea was already 'occupied'
by a whole thriving industry called Shaolin Village and many so called
Shaolin temple training Schools! The reopening of the Shaolin temple by the
"Grand Abbot" Master Su Xi who's kindness and dedication seem so much
similar as the original founder of Shaolin, gives hope to a new era of
Shaolin teaching and Spirit. But for all his good teaching and kindness he
was also being used.
Animal Wu Shu is being practiced, but not the Shaolin 5 Animals but a new
breed of modern, very athletic and well developed Animal styles including;
Monkey
Eagle
Crane
Snake
Mantis
The current Abbot of Shaolin the venerable . . . . has been in place for 10+
years now. He or the Chinese government have just cleared all the schools
and the village surrounding Shaolin allowing only one to be there, the
official Chinese Government Shaolin Temple training School. All schools,
some numbering up to 8000 students, have been moved to the near by major
city of Kerfeng (wrong spelling, right sound). Shaolin and the area around
it is being prepared to be . . . possibly a tourist and martial art trap or
a heritage site. Time will tell.
There are possibly many other styles and flavours emerging in this new era
of martial art Renaissance. Also a new era of Shaolin has started again with
many martial artists, tai chi, kung fu and chi kung practitioners travelling
to Henan where they can learn modern Shaolin Wu Shu!
Golden Era
Shaolin's 1st Golden Era started with the ascension to the throne of the
Tang Dynasty son who they saved. During the Ming Dynasty was the second
Golden era of Shaolin with much cooperation between the Emperors Palace and
Shaolin. Now with the full force of the Chinese Government behind them,
efforts to have Wushu in the Olympics and over 1 billion people training
Wushu, Kung Fu, Tai Chi and Chi Kung we can consider this the third golden
era not only for Kung Fu and Wu Shu but for all peaceful martial arts (i
believe that violent and aggressive MA are a recessive breed). As a martial
artist at body, heart and spirit, it is a good time to be alive!



non va benissimo perchè il wide giles non è il metodo adottato dalla nazione
in cui la regione si trova.
se poi tutti i cinesi d'oltremare, gli occidentali di formazione anglofona e
gli intellettuali preferiscono NON usare il pnyin (principalmente per
snobismo verso il governo continentale), è un'altro paio di maniche ...
bai
Af

 snobismo verso il governo continentale), è un'altro paio di maniche ...
chi ha una formazione di studi orientali che non e' troppo recente ha
maggiore familiarita' con il wade giles
io personalmente preferisco il pinyin ma non vedo che cosa ci sia di tanto
*sbagliato* nell'utilizzare il wg ... se i problemi fossero solo quelli ...
YM

>>
una sega intera Tagt, altrimenti Onan non era onanista
Paolo

 
da quelle parti non c'è anche walter lorini??


sei libero, come gli inglesi, di non utilizzare gli standard che il "mondo"
adotta di volta in volta.
mi rimane però il dubbio del come mai per l'italiano questa tua visione non
valga .....
grid'ns
Af

 pratica il vero Shaolin dei monaci Tibetani?
che risposta inutile che sto fornendo..... è inutile perchè sicutramente
te lo hanno già detto, ripeturo, iniziato e finito polemiche e questioni,
bla bla bla....
ma è tanto che non partecipo, perdona se te lo dico pure io:
i monaci shaolin non erano tibetani, proprio per niente.
il "vero" shaolin (non tibetano) è cosa talmente controversa che è
difficile persino rispondere (evitando di scriverci una tesi...del tutto
ipotetica pure quella)
ciò non esclude che possa esistere una palestra a Milano o ovunque che
affermi di insegnare "Il vero Shaolin dei monaci Tibetani"
^______-
un saluto a te e agli isamisti


 per motivi politici il cambiamento è mal assorbito.
pensa che Taiwan per alcuni non è nemmeno uno stato indipendente.....
altro che latinizzazione....
formalmente condivido perfettamente la tua opinione : si una il metodo
adottato localmente (salvo eccezioni).
bisogna IMHO rendersi anche conto della realtà concreta e non solo della
teoria.
il WG è stato usato in occidente per un sacco di tempo, i testi e molte
persone (io compreso) si sono formate con quello.
NON è errore usarlo così come non è errore in UK usare la misurazione non
metrico decimale (è solo peggio)
tutto qua.
IMHO  henan (pinyn) è oggi un termine migliore di honan (WG), ma honan non
è sbagliato in assoluto.
pesna se nella cina popolare domattina decidessero di cambiare ancora e
usare un nuovo sistema......
formalmente diventerebbe obsoleto anche il pinyn, ma se qualcuno
continuasse ad usarlo non sbaglierebbe TOTALMENTE...
bye


Pinyin.
un governo piů che altro, una dittatura tra l'altro, dubito che
abbiano fatto un referendum.


mi sembra che in 25 anni un metodo che non ha poi una così lunga storia (nè
mai è stato l'unico) possa essere facilmente sostituito, specie alla lacune
delle non esorbitanti differenze esistenti ....
Af
ovviamente poi fate come cazzo volete, io insisterò ovviamente a menarvela


Perfetto esempio di come per schierarsi contro "i cattivi" si spari una
cazzata immane senza preoccuparsene minimamente.
cosa che invece, conoscendoti sul ng, non fai su tutte le altre cose.
ma fidarsi sempre delle voci riportate non è una grande idea ....
... eppure ti avevo dato più di uno spunto ....
bona
Af
YM è un gran bravo nonnetto, ma dovete distinguere quando dice una cosa
perchè "ci ragiona" da quando la dice perchè "ci sente".
qui ha un interesse ... di sangue ... :-)

... eppure ti avevo dato più di uno spunto .....
non spuntare, spiega :-P
ciao


la questione linguistica cinese ?
è un affare un po' troppo lungo direi ... mi sopravaluti ... :-)
ma è molto interessante, non so se in rete c'è niente (se mi rimane altri 10
minuti guardo ..), altrimenti un libro di linguistica cinese qualsiasi penso
basti.
bai bai
Af
P.S. colgo l'occasione per dichiarare che ricevo 10 vecchie lire italiane
per ogni occidentale che converto al pinyin

 > non spuntare, spiega :-P
molto sommario ma ora scappo davvero direi di accontentarsi di quanto passa
il buon 
www.omniglot.com
, sempre un porto sicuro ...
è solo una nota storica molto approssimativa e non accenna minimamente alla
vera questione linguistica se non al 3 capoverso .. ma per ora ....
Phonetic transcription of Chinese
Many different ways have been devised to represent the sounds of spoken
Chinese phonetically. Most use a version of the Latin/Roman alphabet and are
known as 'romanization' or 'latinization'. The first people to attempt the
romanization of Chinese were Jesuit missionaries mainly from Spain and
Portugal who began to arrive in China during the early 16th century towards
the end of the Ming dynasty. The first romanization systems were created by
Matteo Ricci, in 1605, and Nicolas Trigault, in 1625, who used them only as
an aid to study Mandarin.
When Protestant missionaries were permitted to work in China after the Opium
War of 1839-1842, at first they had to confine their activities to the
coastal provinces of the southeast, where people didn't speak Mandarin and
were mainly illiterate. The missionaries created romanization systems for
many varieties of Chinese spoken in those areas, taught their converts to
read and published millions of copies of religious works and other
materials.
At the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century, there
was a general discontent with the policies of the Manchu Qing dynasty which
lead to calls for reform in many areas, including language. Many phonetic
scripts were devised by Chinese patriots who saw them as a way of making
China "wealthy and strong" again. There was also much debate about whether
the transcription systems should be used in conjunction with Chinese
characters to show their pronunciation, or whether they should replace the
characters altogether. Another issue was which variety of Chinese should be
represented by the transcription systems: some favoured Mandarin only,
others argued that separate systems would need to be devised for other
varieties of Chinese.
Eventually it was decided that a northern dialect of Mandarin, as spoken by
educated people in northern China, would be used as the basis for a new form
of written Chinese. It also became the standard spoken language for the
whole country. The new written form of Chinese was known as báihùa (plain
language) and writers were encouraged to use it rather than Classical
Chinese. Not all writers were keen to adopt the new style and to this day, a
classical or semi-classical style is still used by some.

 si sono alzati una mattina e hanno "cambiato" la lingua.
significa che non cambieranno MAI sistema?
chi te lo garantisce?
sono infallibili?


 Inviato via 
http://arianna.libero.it/usenet/
Stili tibetani ?
Sorry, non posso aiutarti, se invece cercavi lo Shaolin della famiglia
Hung, puoi provare a consultare i siti della PWKA e della FIWUK, poi
chiedere ai loro responsabili di zona.
http://www.pwka.com
http://www.fiwuk.it
   Ciao
    Luna



lingua cui si raffronta
sarà ma secondo me 'kungu fu' è molto più figo di 'gong fu' :-)

vera questione linguistica se non al 3 capoverso .. ma per ora ....(cut)
interessante, grazie
ciao

 Af

grazie per la precisazione.
il fatto e' che io uso un'altra traslitterazione...ideata da mio
cugggggino Ciro il piastrellista per cui, piu' di tanto non posso
pretendere ;-)
Jack (Hung Gar)
"Sei troppo vecchio per smettere di allenarti!" (un amico)
www.hunggar.too.it


 è un FATTO.
mi aggancio qui..ma vale x tutti..
ma fondamentalmente..chissene...
alla fine ci siamo capiti no?
vogliamo discutere del sesso degli angeli? ok. ma addirittura se meglio a
pecora o a smorzacandela... :-DDD


Gomi ha scritto:


che ci faceva una donna in un monastero buddhista?


 Biancaneve e i 5 nani in effetti suonerebbe male ...
vero..
e anche i 5 samurai
i manifici 5
5 spose per 5 fratelli
  :-)


lü dongbin

in Tibet si facessero AM o affini....
ma dai archeo, il tibet ha una grande tradizione guerriera! a partire
dallo stile delle guardie dei templi e luoghi sacri, concentrato
sull'uso di pesanti bastoni. mi pare che esista anche una grande
tradizione di scherma, visto che la daga e' l'arma tibetana per
definizione. 

 mettere i tibetani contro i qing? missione impossibile.
come no ? capitanati dall'invincibile berretto rosso "to m'cru ise."
lü dongbin
----
omnia mutantur
aiuto per l'interpretazione:
1) Contenuti: basati solo su esperienza personale - altro viene quotato con
[cit.]
2) Linguaggio: italiano - altro viene quotato con ".."
3) Forma: contenuti specifici dove la forma cambia viene quotato [mode
...ON/OFF]
4) Risposte: viene sempre risposto a tutti i messaggi educati e
costruttivi - altro viene ignorato

che ci faceva una donna in un monastero buddhista?
tu che dici? ];-)

 pecora o a smorzacandela... :-DDD
lol
grande jack
massimo

 
vedo che non riesci a fare una discussione di merito su qualcosa senza
voler associare per forza appartenenze a schieramenti, cosa che
d'altronde mi conferma il perchè della tua presa di posizione in assenza
quasi totale di cognizione di causa sul problema ....
sprecato anche troppo fiato, fine giochino (per me)
'bonaaaa
Af
-- 
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - 
http://www.Mailgate.ORG

 la cazzata fosse stato lui, cosa che non č visto che [...]
mi attacco qui perche' vin esprime abbastanza bene il mio pensiero
confermo che ora uso principalmente il pinyin, non fosse altro perche' zz
possa incassare le sue 10 lire !
ricordo anche che Taiwan, che e' una nazione anche se non per tutti, non
adotta il pinyin ma altro sistema
ricordo anche che neppure a HK e' impiegato
YM

 
l'importante è questo
:-)


 l'importante č questo
di questo passo in poco tempo potresti raggiungere cifre ragguardevoli ....
ma cosa te ne farai di tutti 'sti soldi, dico io ... ;-)
YM

 ricordo anche che neppure a HK e' impiegato
Condivido vista la deriva che ha preso la discussione. Cercando di
riassumere ho trovato alcuni dati in Internet.
-----------
[Cit. varie]
I sistemi principali di romanizzazione sono:
Pinyin = sistema di romanizzazione della lingua cinese introdotto nel 1958
dalla Repubblica Popolare Cinese ed ora di uso comune in tutto il mondo.
Č lo standard delle Nazioni Unite dal 1977 e della ISO (International
Standard Organization) dal 1982.
Wade-Giles = Sistema di romanizzazione pubblicato per la prima volta nel
1859 da Thomas Francis Wade. Sviluppato dal sistema R. Morrison del 1815, fu
modificato da Herbert Allen Giles nel 1912. Nel passato č stato praticamente
l'unico sistema nei paesi di lingua inglese.
Yale = Creato nel 1948 per l'insegnamento della lingua ai militari
americani. In seguito č stato largamente usato per l'insegnamento negli
Stati Uniti per un certo periodo di tempo.
E.F.E.O. = sistema francese (dell'Ecole franįaise d'Extręme Orient).
Bopomofo (o zhuyin fuhao), in uso a Taiwan.
Chinese Post Office System = Vecchio sistema usato al posto del Wade-Giles
per alcuni toponimi.
Ad es.: Peking (Wade-Giles Pei-ching / pinyin Beijing); Tsingtao (Wade-Giles
Ch'ing-tao, pinyin Qingdao); Chungking (Wade-Giles Ch'ung-ch'ing, pinyin
Chongqing); Sinkiang (Wade-Giles: Hsin-chiang, pinyin Xinjiang).
----
[cit. 
http://www.white-clouds.com/iclc/cliej/cl4ao.htm
]
History of chinese romanization
Systematic Chinese romanization started in the early 17th century by Jesuit
priests like Matteo Ricci (1552-1610, Italian), Nicolas Trigault (1577-1628,
French) and others as they came to China to learn the Chinese language and
to promote Christianity. Their efforts were later joined by other
westerners. In 1867, Thomas F. Wade, the Chinese language secretary in the
British embassy to China published a book called Yuyan Zi Er Ji (ÓïŅÔŨÔåĮžŊ)
["Teach Yourself Chinese"], in which he used a romanization system adapted
from the 1815 system by the English priest R. Morrison. Forty-five years
later, H. A. Giles published his Chinese English Dictionary, in which he
used Thomas Wade's romanization system with slight modifications. This is
how the famous Wade-Giles system came about.
Realizing that the traditional Chinese writing system hampers China's mass
education, many Chinese intellectuals launched a Chinese romanization
movement of their own early this century. Fine scholars like Lu Xun (ÂģŅļ),
Hu Shi (šúĘĘ), Li Jinxi (Āč―õÎõ), Lin Yutang (ÁÖÓïĖÃ), Zhao Yuanren
(ÕÔÔŠČÎ), Qian Xuantong (ĮŪÐþÍŽ), etc., were all ardent supporters and
participants of this movement. Numerous designs were proposed from 1897
onward. This effort culminated in 1928, when the Education Ministry of the
nationalist government announced the Gwoyeu Romotzyh Pinin Faashyh, which
was designed by Zhao Yuanren, the best linguist China has ever produced, and
decreed that it would be used as the standard for Chinese romanization.
Gwoyeu Romatzyh (đúÓïÂÞÂíŨÖ) does not use any diacritic tone marks, but
employs an ingeniously designed set of tonal spellings to mark tones. It has
been very popular among teachers and students of the Chinese language in the
US, though because of decades of war and turmoil and a general lack of
foresight, it has never enjoyed much popular usage inside China.
At the same time, many communist revolutionaries were also sympathetic with
the idea of romanization. In 1931, Qu Qiubai's Latinhua xinwenz
(öÄĮï°ŨĩÄĀ­ķĄŧŊÐÂÎÄŨÖ) was adopted at a conference by Chinese nationals in
the Soviet far east. This scheme has no provision for marking tones, and is
therefore much simpler than Gwoyeu Romatzyh. It was used to educate workers
in the Soviet far east, and was also extensively used in Yan'an (ŅÓ°ē), the
base and stronghold of the Chinese communist revolution. After 1949, the
communist government set up a committee to study the issue of Chinese
romanization. After years of deliberation, a new scheme called Hanyu Pinyin
Fang'an (ššÓïÆīŌô·―°ļ) was announced in 1958. For many years, Hanyu Pinyin
was used mainly to replace Zhuyin Fuhao (ŨĒŌô·ûšÅ) as a pronunciation guide
in elementary education and in dictionaries. In the meantime, Wade-Giles
continued to be used in English language publications until 1979, when the
International Standard Organization passed a resolution adopting Hanyu
Pinyin as the international standard for Chinese romanization.
In addition to the four romanization systems mentioned above, there is
another Chinese romanization system called the Yale system. This system was
created in 1948 and first used in a textbook called Speak Chinese. It was
popular in some American institutions where Chinese was taught due to its
relative simplicity.
In 1986, Taiwan's Education Ministry announced a simplified version of
Gwoyeu Romatzyh. This system abandons the tonal spellings of Gwoyeu
Romatzyh, and instead uses the same tone marks as Pinyin and Zhuyin Fuhao to
mark tones.
---------------
tuttavia nel 2004 il Wade Giles č sicuramente destinato ad estinguersi dato
che sia il governo americano che anche il Library of Congress usa il Pinyin.
E questi producono sicuramente pių carta che alcuni "testi a livello di
ricerca universitaria" destinati notoriamente ad un pubblico molto
ristretto.
[cit. 
http://lcweb.loc.gov/catdir/pinyin/romcover.html
]
"In order to provide better service to library users, the Library of
Congress is moving to adopt the pinyin system of romanization of Chinese.
That system has already been the standard for the United States Government
for more than two decades; it is also the standard used by the United
Nations and most of the world's media."
Datata 1998 quindi 6 anni fa.
Oltre a ciō *personalmente* mi sembra oggi come oggi anacronistico e
sciovinista voler usare il Wade Giles: come č sicuramente nazionalista voler
continuare ad affermare una "diversitā" con la Cina a Taiwan e ad Hong Kong.



qilaaaaaaaaaaai, qilaaaaaaaaaaai :)

 -----------
credo di si
anche perche' se dovessimo basarci sulle scelte del governo cinese allora
usare i caratteri tradizionali, in luogo di quelli semplificati usati in
Cina, sarebbe *sbagliato*
cosa sulla quale mi sentirei giocarmi altre 10 lire con zz ...
YM

 qilaaaaaaaaaaai, qilaaaaaaaaaaai :)
sai cosa si dice (come si usa) di quel termine, no ?
YM

 sprecato anche troppo fiato, fine giochino (per me)
non sei capace di discutere sull'argomento, evidentemente.
ti diverti a fare polemichette e punzecchiare inutilmente.... ma non
replichi logicamente...  tipico dei troll.
MX


MX

 scherzando, no, non so cosa si dice :)
ehrmm ... te lo spiego poi a torino ...;-)
YM

YM> sono meridionali, ma non lo dire forte che poi mio padre ti sente...;-)
Basta dirlo in wade-giles, fa più...north'east ;-)

 replichi logicamente...  tipico dei troll.
Segnato la conversazione in rosso...   ;  )
...
Nimror

 tu che dici? ];-)
ch'illa zoccola... :-)
jack


 ma cosa te ne farai di tutti 'sti soldi, dico io ... ;-)
mah, magari la prox volta li faccio venire io 25 cinesi ... (raro caso di
ambiguità nella lingua italiana ....)
Af

 perche' non va bene sostenerlo?
io l'ho detto anche troppe volte che IMHO è preferibile (per molte
ragioni) il py.
ma non è corretto affermare che l'uso del WG sia formalmente SBAGLIATO,
questo perchè il WG (come altri sistemi differenti dal py) sono comunque
sistemi di traslitterazione.
la differenza è che sbagliata è l'applicazione di qualcosa che non può in
nessuno modo essere applicato, preferibile è qualcosa che è meglio non
usare.
es è sbagliato mettere gasolio in una macchina benzina
è corretto IMHO consigliare l'uso di py , tra l'altro anche per arrivare
in futuro ad un unico sistema per tutto il globo terraqueo, cosa che
renderà più semplice la vita di chi ha a che fare con ste cose ;) 
ok?
bye


bye

 ciao,
ri-ciao
