Newsgroup: it.sport.arti-marziali
Titolo: Sigung Kernspecht sull'apprendere..

 On the impossiblity of giving something if the recipient has no receptable
for it yet.
But in fact these are merely showy superficialities (though admittedly
interesting and helpful), e.g. the position of the thumb during Fook-Sao.
During his summer tutorials in Italy and Germany, Great Grandmaster Leung
Ting drew a picture of a wolf donning "sheep's clothing" on the blackboard
for the participants. "That is WT", he said by way of explaining what is
probably the most fascinating secret of our system. "We only have one
concept and a set of principles and maxims to which we adhere. That is the
wolf. We are able to pull the skin of any other animal over this." Then he
asked a Technician to attack him with WT techniques, defended himself using
Shaolin,Tai-Chi, Praying Mantis or Thai Boxing techniques and defeated the
WingTsun Technician. Although the techniques he used were the typical
techniques of these other styles he defeated his WT attacker with WT, for
the wolf he had covered with the skin of another animal (Shaolin. Tai-Chi
etc.) was the WT concept. It was the concept that enabled him to win, while
the external appearance was scarcely important.
"Don't attach such importance to details and superficialities, don't pay
attention to the cup from which I drink, but rather to whether I enjoy the
drink itself. Don't lose sight of the goal. Some people cannot see the wood
for the trees, they ascribe so many secrets to WT. In fact WT is so simple,
but they complicate it unnecessarily."
That is precisely the problem. During seminars GGM Leung Ting is repeatedly
asked about details, e.g. whether he first turns his foot inwards when
advancing from the IRAS and whether the inside of his bent elbow points
upwards or sideways during a punch. And the more questions of this
superficial nature the students ask, the more they receive seemingly
contradictory answers.
GGM Leung Ting has probably never given any previous thought to many of
these unnecessary questions, but now he has to give the questioner an answer
and does so. However there is no such thing as a generally valid, standard
answer, but only an educational, psychological or even philosophical answer
which often applies only to this questioner and only to his specific
situation. If somebody else were to ask what appears to be the same question
under slightly different conditions on the next day, he might well receive a
contradictory answer. There is no real contradiction, however, as the
master's answer is only to help the questioner solve his own problem.
Perhaps the questioner needs encouragement rather than technical advice, and
will therefore receive a completely non-technical answer.
It is not really the movements that make it WT, as the parable of the
sheep's clothing shows. In fact the techniques could well come from Karate
or Ju-Jitsu (if they were economical enough). WT is the operating system,
our body is the hardware and the movements are the software.
GM Leung Ting has a favourite saying: "The only secret technique in WT is
the one you do not practice, as it will always remain a secret to you."
If you practice diligently and work to improve you will understand more and
more. What you do not understand today, and may not even recognise as a
problem, you may vaguely perceive next year and even be able to formulate
into a question soon afterwards - but only if you have trained
conscientiously in the meantime. In that case you have created the
conditions for being receptive to new influences yourself, rather than
waiting to receive ready-made answers. Now you are ready to be "enlightened"
further.
You may think that knowledge is being "kept secret", but in fact those who
are not ready cannot understand it, as they have not put in the work to
prepare their ground for the seed.
What many see as "keeping secrets" is actually the impossibility of giving
something if the recipient has not yet developed a receptacle for it.
Perhaps this is what GM Leung Ting means when he refers to "containable" in
not only the physical but also the philosophical sense in his new
Siu-Nim-Tao book.
When I began to learn from GM Leung Ting 28 years ago he did not make it as
easy for me as it is for students in these fast-moving days of instant-this
and instant-that. He explained nothing to me, and I had to make sense of
everything myself, observe him or steal techniques from him or his
assistants with my eyes. There were no books or posters showing the forms
and not all the sections had been developed. I did not know where the
journey was going, as the great roadmap was not explained at the time.
As soon as I had understood something at great effort, and as soon as I was
able to parry something with some difficulty, that particular exercise was
stopped and replaced with something quite different that gave me a whole new
mountain to climb. Often we would only return to the old subject several
months later.
All this obliged me to think about things myself, to think further on the
basis of what he had taught me. He had created an impulse and off I went.
I often lost my way, only noticing it when he corrected my students for
making my mistakes. This made me alter course quickly, for rapid
adaptability to new situations is the most important and necessary
capability in WingTsun ...
Whenever my Si-Fu answers students' questions with rambling, often rough and
seemingly far-fetched examples or even smutty stories, he certainly does not
do this to annoy or mislead them. His intention is rather to wake them up,
like hitting them with a stick. The truth behind the highest WingTsun,
especially on the 3rd layer which concerns self-knowledge, is not accessible
by well-trodden paths, and only the use of symbolism and parables can lead
to a change in thinking. In the New Testament it is not without reason that
laymen are only addressed in parables, as only the initiated, esoteric
community of the disciples is able to bear and understand the pure
teaching - and in the end not even them.
Showing a student only one corner as in Confucianism, and teaching him no mo
re if he fails to find the others, is the only genuine way to help, for
clear explanation and pre-digestion only appears to be an advantage for the
student, as it sends him to sleep.
"Making things easy" for a searcher and prematurely explaining something
before he is ready for it tends to be counter-productive, at least in the
long term.
The same applies to concepts. Placing in front of somebody a complete
intellectual structure which his brain can immediately assimilate is to rob
him. For his mind will now say "ok, understood" and lean back satisfied,
without making him grow through his own efforts and gain real understanding.
In creating an inner conflict within the students by means of contradictory
answers which fluctuate between affirmation and negation, the master stops
"intellectual" thinking and involves feeling, which always comes before
thinking.
The truth has only ever been revealed to man in "flashes", i.e. fleeting
inspirations and impressions, as he would be unable to cope with it
otherwise - the light would be too strong.
And even a brief flash of truth has a dynamic force which carries the seeds
of confusion within it. All too often somebody glimpses a small aspect of
the truth, and because even this tiny part is so wonderful he believes he
has seen EVERYTHING. For even this tiny aspect often lends us so much power
and superiority that we are seduced into believing that it is the whole
truth.
And for all our human hubris we are not altogether wrong in this, for the
whole must in some way be present in even the smallest part.
However with our human intelligence we cannot interpolate from a small part
to recognise the whole, and I write this in the knowledge of all that still
lies before you. A blind man feeling the leg of an elephant might come to
the conclusion that this animal is shaped like a column, but another feeling
its trunk could gain the impression that it is something like a snake.
If we know how one, two and three dimensions are constituted we might arrive
at a conclusion concerning the characteristics of the 4th dimension, however
it still remains a mystery and cannot even be imagined.
In the end you can only arrive at the whole by understanding the whole.
Somebody who is able to take a single deep but brief look at the system
owing to fortunate circumstances, or because General Kwan wishes to spoil
him, will be overcome by the ingeniousness revealed to him and believe that
he has seen and understood the whole "truth". There cannot be more than
this! In fact if he delves more deeply into the material he will discover
contradictions that motivate him towards further study. Nor would he puff
out his chest and claim with absolute conviction: "This is the only right
way to do that!"
Strictly speaking there is no right or wrong, there are only better or worse
interpretations of the WT concept. Even when GM Leung Ting calls out
"wrong!" and everybody in the room flinches as if a mortal sin had been
committed, he only means that the movement in question can be executed more
economically, with less effort or less complication. Neither do the Chi-Sao
sections lay down fixed instructions for all time and for all situations.
Everything is interdependent. The sections merely give examples of how to
act intelligently and save effort.
Many other interpretations are possible as well, and these are e.g. shown in
GM Leung Ting's tutorials. "Can't one find these out for oneself?", I
sometimes hear people ask. Maybe so, if you are a grandmaster and have given
the matter as much intensive thought as my Si-Fu, but why reinvent the
wheel? For my part I consider it more economical to think further from the
basis of knowledge that has already been gained.
To understand, to understand more and more, you must learn to apply what you
have learned and then return to it again and again, looking more closely
each time, and each time you will gain a deeper understanding,
Taking a single aspect, subordinating the (unknown) whole to it and
demanding that the whole must act in accordance with the (apparent) guiding
principle one believes one has discovered is to overestimate oneself, i.e.
it is hubris and the road to confusion.
This summer I had a long conversation about precisely this subject with my
Si-Fu in Berlin, and we both agreed with the view of a philosopher who once
warned that every extraneous idea must lead to a loss of balance in the
whole.
Keith R. Kernspecht

 WingTsun Technician.
;-(
ym

 ;-(
No?
;-)
RoBiN

 No?
tu che dici ?
YM

 tu che dici ?
Dire????
Dimmi una valida ragione perche dovrei "dire"...
 RoBiN
P.s.
Roma è sempre una bella città, che ne dici di una bella visita? ;-)

 Roma è sempre una bella città, che ne dici di una bella visita? ;-)
dico che HK e' meglio e preferisco giocare in casa
comunque sarei quasi pronto a scommettere di avere il sistema di farti
cambiare idea ...;-)
che si *dice* piuttosto a Roma ?
YM

 che si *dice* piuttosto a Roma ?
L'aria č fresca e limpida e stamane i castelli erano un incanto...
RoBiN

 riferisci esattamente.....
vabbe', se hai la zia in casa lascio stare
YM

 concept and a set of principles and maxims to which we adhere.
intendevo dire che il "most fascinating secret" del WT che finalmente hai
postato e del quali siamo venuti finalmente a conoscenza e' la regola di
TUTTE le arti marziali
va' bene cosi' ?
ciao
YM

 vabbe', se hai la zia in casa lascio stare
Ho smesso di fumare, vai avanti....
RoBiN

 va' bene cosi' ?
Molto meglio grazie, quando hai sete non c'č niente di piů indicato di un
bel bicchiere di acqua fresca...
Direi che č quasi banale se non credessi che tutti sarebbero pronti a dire
che č ovvio e scontato....
Ah..
RoBiN

 che è ovvio e scontato....
ciao' fammi capire
1. tu posti una banalita'
2. io ti faccio notare che e' banale
3. tu confermi che e' banale ma poi te la prendi perche' te l'ho fatto
notare
mi sono perso qualcosa ?
YM

 mi sono perso qualcosa ?
Ok, visto che ci sei tu e che ti vedo in forma ti lascio il posto d'onore e
posso tornare a rispondere, come qualsiasi essere umano ragionevole, alle
domande poste :-)))
Si,ti sei perso qualcosa....
1) Io non posto una banalità, forse lo sarebbe, se molta gente non pensasse
che è ovvio e scontato, nulla di più semplice ed evidente...
"Direi che è quasi banale se non credessi ..."
2) tu mi fai notare che è banale e dal tuo punto di vista potrebbe benissimo
essere ma questo non vuol dire che lo sia per tutti...
3) Io non confermo che E' banale, anzi, e non me la prende assolutamente,
anzi, ;-pppp
Cazzo mi sei mancato Ermmà ^____^
RoBiN

 che è ovvio e scontato....
non ho capito il senso di questa tua frase...puoi spiegarti meglio?
grazie :-)
Jack (Hung Gar)
-- 
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 Si,ti sei perso qualcosa....
non ci siamo capiti
o meglio, se preferisci, non ci ho capito un'acca
lasciamo stare, ciao
YM

 wrote:

Parla per te, io la pelle di pecora non l'ho mai sopportata :-))

 grazie :-)
poveraccio non può farti nemmeno un disegno perchè ormai lo sanno tutti che
non li capisci .........
:-)
Af

 non li capisci .........
se QUELLO era un disegno io sono Giotto. ;-P
Jack O



Ecco come fece a fare il cerchio perfetto al messo papale .....
^_______^
Af

Zhuangzi ha scritto:



:-)))))))
e cmq..tu hai capito che cosa ha scritto Robin?
Jack (Hung Gar)


 Parla per te, io la pelle di pecora non l'ho mai sopportata :-))
volpone ... erhmm, volevo dire ... lupacchiotto !
;-)
YM

"Jack Burton" <Ja...@Burton.it> ha scritto nel messaggio
Sulla strada dell'apprendimento  ci sono molte trappole e insidie,
l'esperienza personale mi ha portato a vedere (ahimè) come spesso si celano
proprio nei posti in cui non ti aspetteresti di trovarle o forse proprio per
questo si trovano lì ;-pp
A volte le cose ovvie, quelle che sembrano scontate sono quelle su cui si
passa più velocemente,  mi è capitato diverse volte poi di scoprire che
proprio lì si nascondo "interessanti " risvolti e chiavi necessarie per
aprire porte che si trovano lungo la strada....
RoBiN

 
Vabbè spendere palate di soldi per lezioni, esami e lezioni private... ma 
addirittura mettersi a pecora!!
Tac
-- 
"The result is prudent repression and restriction of any free and daring
tendency; constant mortification of impetuous intelligence; unconditioned 
propping-up of imitative and incestuous mediocrity; prostitution of the
great glories of the music of the past, used as insidious arms of offense 
against budding talent; limitation of study to a useless form of 
acrobatics floundering in the perpetual last throes of a behindhand 
culture that is already dead."

 Sulla strada dell'apprendimento  ci sono molte trappole e insidie,
--------- cut ------
ora e' piu' chiaro, grazie.
Jack (Hung Gar)
"Sei troppo vecchio per smettere di allenarti!" (un amico)


> Keith R. Kernspecht
Un riassuntino in Italiano per gli ignoranti?
Daiiii!!
A proposito di Wing Chun...
Pensate che ieri, dopo un paio d'anni e più di assenza da questa splendida
arte, son partito per Tortona con qualche compare e ho preso la mia prima
lezione da Franco Regalzi.
Sono veramente soddisfatto!
--
PIPPO  Jeet Kune Do e Aikido (e Wing Chun!!)
Icq#61125575
"Spero che la prossima volta che ci incontreremo
sarà per bere un thè assieme e non per batterci"


Tu che ne dici ? (c)
Af

 Tu che ne dici ? (c)
no ®
Jack (Hung Gar)
"Sei troppo vecchio per smettere di allenarti!" (un amico)
-- 
