Newsgroup: it.sport.arti-marziali
Titolo: Coltelli a farfalla

Credo che molti di voi abbiano in mente i coltelli a farfalla cinesi, sono
usati in diversi stili.
Hanno una forma molto particolare e' una caratteristica che non ritrovo in
nessun'altra arma cinese: il paramano.
Qualcuno di voi mi s dare info sull'origine storica di queste armi.
tipo:
Sono armi vere e proprie o sono derivati di qualche utensile (tipo
coltellacci da macellaio o che so io)
se sono derivati, a cosa servivano originariamente il paramento ed il gancio
posto sulla parte superiore dell'arma?
Grazie a tutti
Giorgio (hung gar)


Ritorniamo in occidente^_^
ciao
Ego
--
Va e riferisci agli spartani
o straniero che passi
che obbedienti al loro comando
noi qui giacciamo

 Ritorniamo in occidente^_^
ossia?
Giorgio (hung gar)

 nessun'altra arma cinese: il paramano.
beh... QUEL tipo di paramano.
in realtà molte armi cinesi hanno parti che fungono da paramano...ma nella
tipica "malignità" (in senso buono) cinese sono paramano che servono anche come
arma
basta pensare per es. a:
shuang kou : spada uncinata
lu jyau dao: coltello uncinato
( uno sguardo alla "Tigre e il dragone" può servire a rinfrescare la memoria)
happy new year!
MX
-- 
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - 
http://www.Mailgate.ORG

 arma
ho capito a cosa ti riferisci, ma in quei casi si tratta di vere e proprie
lame, qui il metallo e' posti di piatto.
cosi'...tanto x essere pignoli.... :-)))
Giorgio (hung gar)




 cosi'...tanto x essere pignoli.... :-)))
meglio pignoli che pinoli ( battuta etilica....ho già stappato dello spumante )
^___^
auguri!  
p.s.  il salmome affumicato stasera taglialo con il coltello a farfalla mi
raccomando!  ;)


 attrezzi comuni(macellaio)
Hai conosciuto Yp Man???? Ma quanti anni hai??    ;-)
buon anno   lob


Ragazzo mio ,io esisto da sempre............


 usati in diversi stili.
Guarda se ti può interessare :
Unraveling the history of Wing Chun's Butterfly Swords
By Benny Meng and Richard Loewenhagen
In Wing Chun, learning the Butterfly Swords is considered to be a highly
advanced stage of learning that represents completing the system. In many
cases, only a few students are ever taught the sword level of Wing Chun
because it requires advanced comprehension of the nature of the art itself
and how the sword is woven into every aspect of the system. Consequently,
knowledge of the sword is considered very sacred and oftentimes protected
secretively.
Although there are those who perform and practice the Wing Chun Swords
today, very few people are familiar with the history and background of their
origination. Before examining these origins, it is essential to validate the
background and credentials of our information source -- Master Garret Gee
(Chu King-Hun). Master Gee comes from a family line renowned for
intellectual leadership, statesmanship, and excellence in martial arts and
military matters. One prominent ancestor was Zhu Xi, a political leader and
teacher in the Song Dynasty. Zhu Xi is credited as being one of the key
figures in the revival of Confucianism through the establishment of academic
institutions, active correspondence with fellow scholars, publication of
over 90 books, and extensive instruction of personal disciples. An imperial
decree issued decades after his death designated several of his published
commentaries as required reading for all government students. During the
Ming Dynasty, Zhu Xi was officially elevated to the stature of Confucius and
his birth was celebrated twice yearly.
In more recent history, Master Gee's grandfather, Chu Jun-Bak, achieved
prominence as a military leader and master instructor at the prestigious
Wong Bo Military Academy. The Wong Bo Academy is the foremost military
school in China with a reputation and distinction that makes it China's
equivalent to the West Point Military Academy in the United States. China's
greatest generals have traditionally been schooled at Wong Bo Academy.
Master Gee, himself, displayed significant martial arts talent at a very
early age. He began training under the tutelage of his father at the age of
5. He quickly demonstrated a profound affinity and talent for swordsmanship,
as well as other Kung Fu weapons. By the time he was 13 years old he so
impressed Dr. Wang Ming (one of the descendents of Cheung Ng and a teacher
of Wing Chun from the Hung Fa Yi Secret Society) that he became the last of
Dr. Ming's four disciples.
The evolution of the Wing Chun Butterfly Sword we use today progressed
through three primary stages of development. The first stage was its
creation as a defensive, non-killing weapon created by the Shaolin monks.
Originally, the butterfly sword was very different from the Wing Chun sword
we see today. The butterfly sword was designed to meet the training and
defense needs of Shaolin monks. In harmony with Buddhist philosophy and
teachings, the monks designed the weapon for parrying, disarming, and
cutting -- not for killing. Consequently, the blade was structured with dull
edges on top and bottom to be used for interception of an opponent's
weapons. As indicated in the attached drawing, only the first 3 inches (the
curved part) of the blade were sharpened. The remainder of the blade, top
and bottom, was solid and dull for parrying and non-lethal striking
purposes. The monks created the dull blade on the butterfly sword not only
because it was a weapon of self-defense, but also because the dull blade
added thickness for extra support to the structure of the sword. Having a
sharpened blade on the butterfly sword was useful for chopping but because
of the thin edge of the sword, the blade could easily be damaged or broken
when defending against a longer, heavier weapon in combat. For this reason,
the Shaolin monks preferred the sturdier blade. Today's Wing Chun sword
techniques still emphasize parrying, obstructing, or intercepting an
opponent's weapon. These remain highly consistent with the original design
and intent of the blade itself.
In the Shaolin Temple, the butterfly sword was not mass-produced to a
specific length. Rather, the length of each butterfly sword was customized
to the practitioner. Specifically, the blade measured from the practitioner'
s wrist to his or her elbow. The monks heavily stressed the need to tailor
the butterfly sword to its intended practitioner. An unfitted blade, used as
intended, could easily harm the user and limit the mobility of his arms and
body. In contrast, the width of the blade did not vary. It remained 3 inches
from top to bottom starting at the hilt and extending to the start of the
blade curvature near the tip. The 3-inch width was selected because it
approximates the width of a developed male wrist. The thickness of the blade
varied, dependent upon the sword maker, but was usually about 1/8th of an
inch throughout. The handle of the sword sported a guard in the shape of a
hook with an open end. The monks used this guard to trap an opponent's
weapon and quickly disarm them. Again, this was consistent with Buddhist
philosophy -- disarm an enemy rather than kill him. All in all, the Shaolin
Butterfly Sword was considered a small weapon in contrast to its
counterparts. This was intentional as the monks wished to conceal the sword
beneath their robes while traveling. They could move about in public without
being questioned or creating an improper image in respect to their Buddhist
teachings. As noted above, the original Shaolin usage of the blades was
deeply rooted in Buddhist beliefs. Killing was not an option. Both the blade
and the training methods for using it centered around parrying, disarming,
and cutting. It was considered far more humane to surgically cut tendons at
the joints, thereby maiming an opponent rather than killing him.
The change in shape and intended function of the swords was a direct result
of the creation of the Wing Chun fighting system with the specific intent of
training revolutionaries to engage the imperial troops of the Ching Dynasty.
According to Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen, the Double Butterfly Swords form
seen in Shaolin Kung Fu was first created by the Fut Pai Hung Mun (Buddhist
Hung Mun). The Fut Pai Hung Mun was a secret society existing within the
Southern Shaolin Temple itself. This society's primary goal was to oppose
the Ching Dynasty that arose from the Manchurian conquest of China in the
17th century, and to restore the Ming family to the throne. They needed an
art that was efficient to train and employ. They needed an art that was
complete in that it consistently developed empty hand skills along with both
long and short, as well as single to double, weaponry.
Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun tradition further instructs that two Shaolin Wing Chun
masters survived the Manchurian massacre at the Southern Shaolin Temple.
They are credited with keeping the Wing Chun system alive. The senior of the
two masters was Yat Chum Dai Si, a 22nd generation Shaolin Grand Master. The
second was Cheung Ng (Tan Sao Ng). Very little information remains today of
the ensuing history of Yat Chum Dai Si. Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun tradition holds
that he was originally trained in and belonged to the Northern Shaolin
Temple at Shong Shon. He later moved to the Southern Temple as part of the
joint effort to secretly develop the Wing Chun style of fighting during the
effort to train rebels for restoring the Ming Dynasty to power. It was there
that he met Cheung Ng.
Cheung Ng was reported to be a highly educated man with an extensive
background in both literary and military skills. He often performed in
dramatic opera. It is believed that he was originally a native of Hanbuck
and that his family had served the Ming regime for generations as military
tacticians and warriors. The Manchurians destroyed his family and Cheung Ng
fled to the Northern Shaolin Temple seeking refuge. He was accepted as a
Shaolin disciple and trained at the temple. It was there that he learned of
Yat Chum Dai Si's activities at the Southern Temple and the gatherings in a
place called Hung Fa Ting where training and planning for the restoration of
the Ming Dynasty took place. He then left the Northern Temple to join the
rebels in the Southern Temple. Under Yat Chum Dai Si he began his studies of
the art that was to become Wing Chun.
Following the destruction of the Southern Shaolin Temple in the
mid-seventeenth century, Cheung Ng is believed to have fled to Guangdong
Province. The city of Fatshan is widely accredited with being the birthplace
of Wing Chun. Historically, it is important to note that Fatshan is in
Guangdong Province. It is also historically interesting to note that Fatshan
is also credited to be the birthplace of the Red Boat Opera Company. Hung Fa
Yi Wing Chun tradition holds that Cheung Ng formed the Red Boat Opera
Company as a means of disguising rebel activity and supporting his teaching
of Wing Chun Kung Fu to rebel leaders. The Red Boat Company was noted for
its discipline and rules of conduct. With its talented performers and tight
discipline, coupled with the logistic advantages of traveling up and down
China's rivers at will, it is logical to assert that the Red Boat Opera
Company was capable of promoting covert training and instruction of rebel
warriors throughout Southern China in the art of Wing Chun.
These historical events lead us to the second stage of evolution of the
traditional Shaolin butterfly sword into today's Bot Jom Doa. This stage was
greatly influenced by the fighting needs of the Secret Society of Hung Fa
Wui (the Red Flower Society) and the Hung Gun Bui family. With the passing
of time, revolutionary fighting against the Manchurians and the Ching
Dynasty increased in intensity and the blade began its transition from a
defensive oriented parrying weapon to an offensive weapon designed to kill.
To make the blade more suitable to warfare, the revolutionary secret society
members of the Hung Fa Wui sought to make it more lethal.
According to Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen tradition, Cheung Ng, himself,
modified the traditional butterfly sword to create a practical battlefield
weapon. Although the changes he made initially were subtle, when combined
with the latest, foremost fighting system of Wing Chun as the foundation,
the results were very lethal. This new version of the butterfly sword
represented a new stage of development for the weapon and its use, but the
knowledge of the modifications and training to use them were never disclosed
by Grand Master Tan Sao Ng or the Secret Society to the general public. The
modified swords were known to the Secret Society as the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun
Double Butterfly Swords.
The Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Swords were very similar to the traditional
version. Most of the top and bottom of the blade remained straight. But, the
design was altered at the tip to accommodate thrusting and stabbing motions.
To this end, they trimmed the front of the blade, adding a curvature and
sharpened point that gave the sword the appearance of a large dagger. The
notched area was then sharpened and blood grooves were added to the sides of
the blade. This enabled blood to drain more easily when the point of the
sword pierced the stomach or other organs.
Although the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Swords are not generally known to the
public, the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen still practice with them according to
the original form and routines taught by Grand Master Tan Sao Ng. Their
intent is to preserve the knowledge of the swords' use and the methods
employed by the revolutionaries to train them.
With centuries of interaction among the different styles of Southern China,
the Wing Chun Sword continued to evolve. The third phase of evolution of the
Shaolin Butterfly Swords into the Wing Chun Sword and Bot Jom Doa training
form we know today took place in the 19th century. This modern version of
the Butterfly Sword has many variations in shape, but the biggest difference
is that all have sharpened the entire length of the blade. Another type of
blade also evolved during this modern period. It is called the Tiger's Head
Blade. It shares the same characteristic of sharpness throughout its entire
length, but it also incorporates a significant curvature or bow toward the
front half of the blade.
In summary, there are three primary eras of development of the Butterfly
Swords. Out of these eras have come four distinct types of blades heavily
influenced by applications relevant to that period. The first blade
originated from Shaolin. It consisted of a 3-inch wide blade with only the
first 3 inches of the blade sharpened. The next blade originated with the
Secret Societies. It consisted of the same 3 inch wide blade with a modified
tip to make it more lethal when used for stabbing. The third blade
originated in the modern era and is distinguished by sharpening the entire
blade. The final blade is the Tiger's Blade with its bowed front.
Oftentimes, advanced practitioners will focus on weapons training by
examining technical details of current uses and applications. In contrast,
an approach that focuses on the evolution of a weapon can give the
practitioner a whole new perspective on use and application. Such is the
case with the Wing Chun Butterfly Swords

 advanced stage of ..........mega cut
E il bersagliere ??  ;-)
ciao   lob

 E il bersagliere ??  ;-)
E' scappato di corsa quando ha visto usare l'ultimo modello di coltello a
farfalla  ;-P
Gyork (WingTsun & Escrima)
--
www.EWTOSanMarino.com

Conosco i Balisong Butterfly, ma di spade no, dove potrei vederne delle
immagini?
Grazie.


 Grazie.
... al momento mi viene in mente "Grosso guaio a Chinatown".
Giorgio (hung gar)

 wrote in message
news:0d0_7.35852$s04.1...@news.infostrada.it...

Grazie, l'ho visto chi sa quante volte e anni fa, ma di armi ce ne erano
troppe.
Nulla di piu' specifico?..


 Nulla di piu' specifico?..
purtroppo no.
comunque sono dei coltellacci ad un filo,con la lama altra 4 dita, lunghi
una 50 di cm, con un paramano modello sciabola di cavalleria  e un "gancio"
modello sai giapponese sul lato non affilato.
Giorgio (hung gar)


 immagini?
Nel sito del mio Sifu si vede qualcosina...
Prova con 
http://www.ewtosanmarino.com/WT_file/gal-k5.htm
http://www.ewtosanmarino.com/WT_file/gal-ting7.htm
http://www.ewtosanmarino.com/WT_file/gal-yip4.htm
(Se invece vuoi vedere un Balisong che è quasi una spada:
http://www.ewtosanmarino.com/WT_file/pics3.htm
  ;-))


 Nulla di piu' specifico?..
confronta un coltellaccio da macellaio a lama larga con una guardia da sciabola
dei nordisti aggiungi un gancio tipo sai di kobudo e il gioco è fatto


> Nel sito del mio Sifu si vede qualcosina...
ecco....giusto a proposito WT e culturismo .....il tuo sifu e' semplicemente
SPAVENTOSAMENTE ENORME!!!!!
Giorgio (hung gar)

 SPAVENTOSAMENTE ENORME!!!!!
Diciamo che è grosso, molto pompato.
Enorme forse è un po' esagerato, perchè rimane comunque abbastanza bassino
;-)


SPAVENTOSAMENTE ENORME!!!!!
fara' pesistica....
confermate ?
smentite ?
in un primo tempo ho pensato fosse Gyork quello del sito,
poiche' appare l'url sempre in calce ai suoi messaggi.
^__^
Ciao

 ^__^
Lo faccio apposta, mi piace passare per un 3°TG.
No, è che gli ho dato una mano con il sito e ci tengo a fargli un po' di
pubblicità (dai, denunciatemi all'abuse! :-P ).


pubblicità (dai, denunciatemi all'abuse! :-P ).
come ci reputi cattivi e perfidi....
8-))))))))
se non ricordo male avevei parlato di un mutuo scambio...
hai avuto na bella pensata,altroche'
Ciao e
 buona pratica.

capito mi immaginavo un balisong gigante
grazie
