Newsgroup: it.sport.arti-marziali
Titolo: Li Ruidong e Wang Xianzhai

Ho appena postato una risposta dettagliata sull'argomento a
http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=Xing;action=display;num=1066208534
che vi ri-allego qui sotto
YM
-------------------
Hello all,
with regard to the supposed fight between Li Ruidong and Wang Xianzhai here'
s a brief analysis of the facts as I have seen them appearing in their
historical order together with the relevant data that confute this thesis.
Let's start with the first reference to a fight between the two masters
which appeared on "Tiyu Bao" (Sport Journal) in China only on 1984.01.14 on
an article written by the late Wang Xuanjie of Dacheng Quan. The author
states that
[.] on 1916 Yuan Shikai [the first President of China] [.] requested that a
Martial Arts contest be set up and ordered Wang Xianzhai and Li Ruidong to
fight [.] Li Ruidong being quite old was easily defeated by Wang Xianzhai.
The two opponents decided to meet again in a month time [.] but Li Ruidong
left the capital to get back to his home town in Wujin where he was
suffocated to death the following month by a failure of his home heater
while sleeping [.]
The date of death of President Yuan Shikai is available through various
sources as 1916.06.06. To make a story short I'll add then that master Li
Ruidong death, which also is referred to in various writings and detailed by
his descendants, is  1917 first day of first month of the Chinese calendar
i.e. 1917.01.23 in western terms.
According to Wang Xuanjie's own words the fight took place in Beijing a
month before the death of Li Ruidong i.e. in the second half of the month of
December 1916, on specific request and in presence of the President Yuan
Shikai . who died in fact about 6 month before the *supposed* challenge
actually happened.
Leaving aside for a moment all considerations regarding the actual
impracticality to happen for such a fight given the difference of age of the
masters and the fame of master Li Ruidong at that time in Hebei it is clear
from WXJ's own words that the story reported was completely made up without
even taking into consideration historical records.
And that must have been the case since a number of "revised versions" of
that story came out in the following months/years from various Yi
Quan/Dacheng Quan proponents in an effort to put some historical evidence to
the case.
So on 1984.03.03 the first new version was published by that same Journal on
an article written by Yang Shaogeng in which some of the relevant facts were
modified such as the date of the "encounter" which now had become 1913,
places and a number of new details of how WXZ defeated Li Ruidong with his
"smooth fajing" and how LRD "fell to the floor and subsequently left Beijing
and never came back to the Capital".
On 1991 a new article was published on the mainland magazine "Wuhun" which
inflated and revised again the story, new actors were introduced and the
fight were pulled back again in history to 1903. Then again on 1992 the same
magazine revised the story again, the fight was brought again to 1913 and a
whole lot of new details emerged. This last version explained how
[.] on 1913 Jin Yunpeng the Land Army Chief of President Yuan Shikai founded
the "Martial Arts School" of the "Land Army Group" and asked Wang Xianzhai
to be the Director [.] in order to set up the challenge between LRD and WXZ,
Jin Yunpeng sent a formal invitation to both parties [.] that day Jin
Yunpeng and Wang Xianzhai were waiting for Li Ruidong at the door of the
department [.]
After this new and detailed version was printed it was immediately used on
various other publications until this day and included by some YQ proponents
on their websites.
We should now concentrate on the new actor Jin Yunpeng, the "Land Army
 Chief" and "founder of the Martial Art School" on 1913.
Full biographies and sketches of the life of Jin Yunpeng are found in the
"Zhonghua Mingguo Shi Tang'an Ziliao Huibian" (Collection of Historical
Documents on the history of the Republic of China).
There we can see that when the "Land Army Group" was founded in 1912 Jin
Yunpeng (1877-1951) was elsewhere in charge of the 5th Group of the Beiyang
Troup and that only on 1919 he was made Chief of the Land Army Group. The
"Collection" gives full list and details of all Chiefs of the Land Army
Group and here again Jin Yunpeng's name is found only after 1918.
Sorry for being long-winded especially on my first post. I hope that the
information given will be of some help in discerning history from myth,
Sincerely
YM

historical order together with the relevant data that confute this thesis.
A parte le ovvie ragioni che traspaiono dal post, cos'è esattamente
che rende così inviso lo Yi Quan da parte dei praticanti di altre arti
marziali, e segnatamente, pare, di quelli del TJQ? Di cosa lo si
"accusa"? Assenza di forme, arroganza, inutilità? E' una questione
solo "morale" o anche tecnica?
Per davvero intendo, non dal vostro punto di vista ;-)
Ciao
Geppo
--
Non c'è Peggior Troll di Chi non Vuol Capire
(Geppo)

 Per davvero intendo, non dal vostro punto di vista ;-)
non saprei
dello Yi Quan non si era mai sentito parlare fino a qualche anno fa'
poi tutto d'un tratto si e' *saputo* che era la piu' temibile arte marziale,
che il suo fondatore aveva vinto contro tutti ecc.....
boh
YM

 Per davvero intendo, non dal vostro punto di vista ;-)
dimenticavo di aggiungere che quello non e' il *nostro* punto di vista
innanzitutto perche' lo stile Li non e' il mio principale lineage e sebbene
io sia una 5 generazione ... sono una pessima 5 generazione ...
poi perche' come vedi dal breve scritto non e' difficile, spesso,  confutare
le fantasie con la realta' storica
ciao
YM

 le fantasie con la realta' storica
Li tjq .. ?
Se sì ti scrivo in pvt entro una decina d'anni ....
'bona
Af

 Se sě ti scrivo in pvt entro una decina d'anni ....
il mio indirizzo lo conosci
ciao
YM
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