Newsgroup: it.sport.arti-marziali
Titolo: KungFu & Grappling..

Ho ritrovato questo articolo sullo XingYi e il Grappling, a parer mio molto
interessante..
Aldilà dei sistemi che prende in considerazione l'autore fà un analisi
'generale' con cui in larga misura concordo, volevo sapere anche il vostro
punto di vista..
--XING YI & GRAPPLING--
THE SITUATION TODAY
At this point, we fighters all have heard about how efficient grappling
methods are in special Brazilian Gracie Jiujitsu. Most of us have already
seen BJJ fighters destroying opponents in NHB events such as the Ultimate
Fighting Championship, Pride and others. We also know many Gong Fu
practitioners that train BJJ or Wrestling as well. They say that Gong Fu is
very good as a "striking art" or for your "standing game", but doesn't have
any ground-fighting. In fact, these people are afraid to face BJJ fighters
in a match, because deep in their hearts, they know they are going down. And
if a BJJ fighter takes you to the ground and you don't know what to do, you
really have a good reason to be afraid.
Why we have this situation nowadays? Why are so many people scared to face
BJJ fighters? Are this BJJ fighters that good? Do they have fantastic or
secret methods to take you to the ground? Why is it that 99.9% of the people
who learn Gong Fu don't trust in what they have learnt and have to
"complement" their skills with BJJ or Wrestling?
There is something wrong; that's for sure. Something very wrong. BJJ and
Grappling arts are not new; they have been around for centuries and
centuries. Why then, since the end of the 80's, have we had this Grappling
arts boom? The Gong Fu flying kicks were so famous ... what happened to the
"Iron Palm" masters? What happened to the "death touch" that some teachers
used to say was the secret to beat anyone, anywhere, no matter how big the
opponent could be? Where are the famous Shaolin palm strikes? What happened
to the internal arts ability to Fa Jin? Since these people are so good,
where did they all go, and why do they need to learn BJJ?
THE TRADITION GOES DOWN
So these guys all disappeared. Why? Because they were a fraud. These people
that called themselves "teachers" or "Masters" were never able to teach
anything, for they really never had any real knowledge about Gong Fu. The
only knowledge they really had or have is about how to fool people and empty
their pockets.
What happened is that after a certain point in Chinese recent history, the
communist government decided that the country would never achieve a level of
progress if its people would still believe in traditional old culture. At
that point ( the end of the 60's ) the government decided that if the
country would progress, they would have to fight again what they then called
" The four olds"; they were
1 - Old culture
2 - Old habits
3 - Old traditions
4 - Old way of thinking
It's unnecessary to say that the martial arts where considered to be among
all the four olds. To practice any martial art was then forbidden for 10
years and several teachers and Masters were sent to work stations to be
"purified through hard work." Many others were sent to jail and suffered
with things that we don't need to talk about here. It was a dark period of
time in history where students would turn Masters down. In 1972, almost at
the end of the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese government decided that it
was time to bring China again to international relations and open the
country's door. Part of this plan was to (re)introduce to the rest of the
world the Chinese culture, or better saying, what the government decided it
was interesting to present as "real Chinese culture". Almost every aspect of
the old Chinese culture were reformulated, and the martial arts were also
reformulated.
Because of the Revolution, many styles completely disappeared, many were
kept in secrecy and many others couldn't be found in China anymore, only
abroad. A lot of styles were still out there, but to bring them back on
scene would require a great effort by the government. It was decided then
that many officials were to travel the whole China searching for whatever
trace they could find about these old styles of Gong Fu. The process, as
expected, took many years, and the government, during the time, compiled
information about several styles of fighting. It was a survey. It was
created then a kind of synthetic Gong Fu, a hybrid martial art, that didn't
have in fact it's own characteristic.
In 1973 the communist party publish the "New rules for Wu Shu competitions."
At this point any Gong Fu techniques that had offensive or defensive
movement were gradually replaced by more gymnastic maneuvers. The tendency
to have more dance-type actions in Gong Fu appeared. This caused an argument
over what the acrobatics movements really meant; that is to say Wu Shu
should be Wu ( martial art) and not Wu ( dance ) " Kang Gewu - 5000 years of
Chinese martial arts. With the new "opening" plan in action, teams and teams
of Wu Shu practitioners ( I see them more as dancers ) were sent abroad to
show the world the new Chinese culture. To Western eyes, Chinese that could
perform incredible jumps and astonishing kicks would definitely be very
proficient fighters. They were so wrong... any Ballet guy could make the
same movements with some training and good instruction. The new Wu Shu then
invaded West in a time where very few people were teaching Asian martial
arts. It was a lie. And they bought it. So this dance, created by the
government, without any martial application, this came to be known as Gong
Fu. What people believed to be Gong Fu was nothing more than a lie.
THE DRAGON SLEEPS................
  BUT THE TIGER IS AWAKE
While the west (especially the U.S.) was learning how to " dance " Wu Shu,
the BJJ was growing very fast in Brazil. Since the 20's (1920), the Gracie
family (mainly through Helio Gracie) began to modify the old Japanese JJ
into a highly efficient martial art. At that time, in Brazil, people had a
wrong idea about what a true martial art should be. There, most part of the
people also believed in the so called "Gong Fu or Karate" "Masters" and
their fantastic techniques. Helio Gracie, Carlson Gracie, their brothers and
cousins begun to show the world, that people needed more reality in what
they practiced. They begun to show the world that you can't be a fighter and
a dancer.
The style they developed began to spread very fast. "Many times I couldn't
make the movements my brother was teaching, because to make this movements
you needed to use a lot of power, and I was a weak boy. So I began to adapt
this old JJ to myself. Once someone asked me if I created a new fighting
style; I just inserted a kind of a crowbar in each movement. I had to use a
crowbar to be able to do what I do without using strength. And then, I
reinvented the JJ" - Helio Gracie. It's important to understand then, that
while the Chinese were worried about showing the world a "new" kind of Gong
Fu, something beautiful and nice to see, the Gracie family was worried about
developing a fighting system that could be used by any person, know matter
how strong the opponent. While the Chinese were "dancing around the world,"
the BJJ was being tested over and over, like Helio Gracie said: "The goal of
my life was to teach JJ. We needed someone to be the protector of the new
BJJ, and I was this person, as a fighter. So every time someone would have
doubts about my techniques, I would step in to the ring and destroy the guy,
to prove the efficiency of our fight." The Gracies were fighting everyone
back then: kickboxers, Gong Fu fighters, karate, Judo, wrestlers ...
everyone was going down. Soon, they were in the U.S., and America found out
about the Gracie JJ. And most of the guys that didn't believe in it, also
went down. Rickson and Rorion Gracie fought almost everyone. They never
chose the opponents. Like their father, Helio Gracie, they have the mind set
of the warrior, while the people who were learning Gong Fu had the mind set
of the dancers.
THE MITHS
Because of the almost total efficiency of BJJ and because everybody was
going down, some myths were created back in the 80's and early 90's:
1 - All the fights begin standing and end up on the ground - there is
nothing you can do about it.
2 - If a BJJ fighter takes you to the ground, then it's all over.
3 - If a BJJ fighters achieves the "mounted" position, it's all over.
4 - You have to learn how to fight on the ground
5 - Mixed martial arts are the best
These statements are, in fact, ridiculous. But I understand why most part of
people believe them. Having in mind the Wu Shu dance, you really begin to
think that you have to learn ground fighting and really begin to believe in
these "myths." But they are not true at all. Let's analyze them.
1 - All the fights begin standing and end on the ground - Why is that? Why
do fights end up on the ground? What happens is that people, first of all,
are not learning real Gong Fu, so they don't have the necessary technique to
avoid being taken to the ground. In how many ways you can take a person to
the ground? Mainly 3 or 4, and the other techniques are only variations.
Learn how to counter these movements, like the famous "double leg" or the
Brazilian JJ "baiana." They are not difficult to defend. The Gong Fu style
you practice should give you tools so you can deal with this techniques.
What is lacking to the Gong Fu people out there ( in terms of Xing Yi ):
a - The mind set. The beast inside.
b - Strong Stances - San Ti Shi training is vital here - spend a lot of time
on it.
c - Chen Jin
d - How to Fa Jin, and how to release power using short movements.
e - How to use elbows, knees, hips, and shoulders. The 2 man form Pi Wuxing
and the bear form are to be trained very well.
f - Reality training. Full power sparring with no protection.
g - A good teacher.
In case you don't lack the above mentioned things and BJJ fighters still
take you to the ground, well, then, train more.
2 & 3 - If a BJJ fighter takes you to the ground or achieve the mounted
position, it's all over - So again here, we have a common problem. People
don't know real Xing Yi Quan. They think they know or, worse, they are
conscious they don't know but they want to fool other people. And again,
what people (most people) know as Xing Yi is a lie. That's why myths like
this spread so fast, because almost no one out there can prove they are only
myths. If these people really know Xing Yi, they would understand that XY is
not based on techniques, but rather in principles. It is in fact very simple
to understand. Teachers train their student in the use of techniques that
work for certain situations. At the moment their the opponent makes a
different movement, they can't react , because they were not taught how to
counter these movements; they didn't learn the proper techniques to apply.
So at this point you can already understand that to know techniques is but a
single step. More important than this, is to know the mechanics that work
behind the techniques. You have to know the concepts. Concepts work in any
situation; they work standing or on the ground. A very good example is about
how to defend a punch. You have to look deep in to the movement (the punch)
and understand that before being a punch, it's a straight force. So if you
learn how to defend straight force attacks, and not only a punch, you can
defend (using the same movement) a punch, a frontal kick, a side kick, a
wrestlers double leg or a BJJ "baiana," for all these movements are in fact
straight forces in motion. All good Xing Yi fighters know this. Well, at
least they should. And more than anything principles are always principles,
standing or on the ground.
4 - You have to learn how to fight on the ground - Wrong. Totally wrong.
This is exactly the mistake BJJ guys never made. High levels of skill in any
martial come only through specialization in a certain art. How do you expect
to be proficient in Xing Yi also learning JJ, or wrestling? Why is so easy
to take the Gong Fu guys to the ground? Because they are not specialists. At
the other hand, BJJ fighters spend hours and hours at BJJ schools
learning... guess what? Yes, only BJJ. After a couple of years, they are
specialists in BJJ. Do grapplers learn boxing techniques? Yes, they do. But
just a little. They know they will always be ground fighting specialists and
they understand they only have to learn enough so they won't be knocked down
in the process of taking you to the ground. They also understand that boxing
is a very very small part of what they need, because the rely in the ground
fighting techniques to finish the opponent. What do Gong Fu guys do ?
Exactly what they shouldn't. Instead of training what they are supposed to,
Gong Fu, they decide that they have to divide their time between Gong Fu and
BJJ or wrestling. They should do what BJJ fighters do. Train a lot in what
their are supposed to be specialists ( Gong Fu ) and have a minimum
knowledge about ground fighting, so that in the case they go to the ground,
they will no be finished. So what happens today is that grapplers are
extremely good in what they do ( specialists ) and have a minimum knowledge
of the standing game ( a lot of people is doing crosstraining and they are
very good standing and on the ground, but the best fighters are still the
specialists ). At the other hand, Gong Fu fighters are not so good standing
and are also not so good on the ground. Some might even argue that " I train
only Gong Fu and I still don't feel safe! ". Well my friend, the question
is: what kind of Gong Fu are you training? If it is the " kick boxing " kind
of Gong Fu, you will never feel safe anyway. For this is only sport. Kick
boxing is ok, but don't expect do beat a man like Rickson Gracie with that.
You need a real martial art. You need Xing Yi Quan.
5 - Mixed martial arts are the best - Nothing, nothing is better than
specialization. When people have only part of a knowledge, something
incomplete, they have to look out for other sources of knowledge.Imagine you
have a half filled glass of water (your Gong Fu) but you have to fill the
glass up. The problem is that you don;t have water anymore (you have a
limited knowledge about the Gong Fu principles). In this case you have to
find out other liquids to fill the glass up. You have a little bit of orange
juice (grappling) and you have a bit of, say tequila (kick boxing). At the
end, the glass is filled up, but the truth is that you have only a bit of
everything. So as a fighter, you are not very good in grappling, not very
good in kick boxing and not very good at Gong Fu. You have a bit of
everything and at the same time you have nothing.
It's true that many BJJ are now going a bit deep into boxing and Thai
boxing, but take a look at the best guys ever : Rickson Gracie, Helio
Gracie, Carlson Gracie, and Rolls Gracie; they are or were absolute
specialist in BJJ. How about the famous Che Yi Zhai, Guo Yun Sheng, Wang
Xiang Zhai ? Ok. Tell this guys they should mix a lot of martial arts
together. Guys that never lost a single fight after they were well trained.
CONCLUSION
The objective of this article is not to teach any Xing Yi Quan techniques,
or teach you how to handle a grappler. This things can't be learn through
the Net. For this you need a good teacher that really understands the
principle of XY. What I do want to do, is to clarify all these myths that
were created around the grappling arts. If you learn Xing Yi from a good
teacher, you have all the conditions to defeat a grappler. The problem right
know is that since 1920's BJJ was being perfected and focusing itself in
street fight efficiency, while Chinese Gong Fu, as we saw, was being
modified into a kind of beautiful dance.
I want to add here that the attitude of some Chinese masters adds a lot to
the Gong Fu world's situation today. But this is a subject for another
article, the one entitled "Did Chinese martial arts missed a bit of reality
over the years." ... coming soon ...

 vostro punto di vista..
Molto bello, ed è anche quello che penso io.
-- 
free.it.cultura.napoletana
L'unico ng dedicato alla cultura napoletana.


super mega CUT
in linea di max concordo anch' io con quello che viene detto: la
specializzazione porta risultati migliori rispetto alla eccessiva
dispersione e divisione delle forze in più ambiti. per quello che dice
riguardo al Gong Fu, non saprei, non ho le conoscenze sufficienti per dare
un parere valido. non sono, invece, pienamente d' accordo sul fatto che i
combattimenti di rado sfocino in lotta a terra: a me sembra un dato di fatto
che il più delle volte ciò accada, sia per volontà di uno dei due
combattenti (se non di entrambi), sia anche per una serie di circostanze
sempre diverse. certo a qs punto salteranno fuori coloro che dicono: " non è
vero, io non ti faccio neanche avvicinare..." e cose simili, però nella
realtà, non essendo su un tatami bello libero e spazioso, può benissimo
succedere di inciampare in qlcs di non previsto ed a quel punto il gioco è
fatto (senza poi considerare l' eventuale differenza di mole tra i 2
avversari), oppure ancora che colui che ti vuole portare a terra, prenda in
considerazione il fatto di subire un colpo pur di eliminare la distanza.
inoltre poi, mi sembra cada un po' in contraddizione quando dice che ai
praticanti di Gong Fu basti imparare a difendersi da quelle 3 o 4
(discutibile!) tecniche usate per atterrare e qualche tecnica di lotta a
terra per essere in grado di affrontare ogni situazione: da quel che ho
capito io, sta consigliando di integrare... mescolando tecniche di stili
diversi... in maniera limitata, certo, concentrandosi soprattutto su una
arte specifica, ma sempre di mix si parla, o ho capito male io? mah, così mi
è parso.
non so magari ho scritto belinate, però... "c' ho ragione e i fatti mi
cosano" :-))))
ciao
teopas (jj)
p.s. quasi dimenticavo: "fatti non pugnette!"

 At this point, we fighters all have heard about how efficient grappling
ne riparliamo quando lo traduci.......
Giorgio


Io sono parzialmente d'accordo con le tesi esposte.
Mi sembra che possa esserci una contraddizione tra due concetti espressi
nell'articolo.
Viene detto che nello X.Y. l'importante sono i principi, quindi capisco che
le tecniche in ultima analisi sono solo dei "mezzi" per raggiungere la
conoscenza di tali principi, non l'obiettivo ultimo dell'insegnamento.
Fin qui non posso avere nulla da eccepire.
Però un tale principio io lo posso assimilare meglio "boxando" e qualcun
altro invece tramite la lotta a terra (per esempio) quindi trovo che
autolimitarsi ad certo insieme di tecniche specifico possa essere poco
efficiente.
Diverso invece il discorso se la tecnica in sè diviene il risultato assoluto
cui tendere e allora affrontare diversi stili diviene un continuo
inseguimento, del tipo "io so 15 tecniche in più di te e quindi sono più
forte" (scusate se banalizzo un po' ma così mi spiego meglio).
Però se l'autore intendeva questo concetto, non mi sembrava che fosse molto
evidente, o forse non l'ho solo capito io.
Inoltre sono convinto che per neutralizzare certe tecniche, bisogna prima
conoscerle, per esempio in combattimento ben difficilmente azzarderei un
calcio alto, ma se in allenamento non imparassi a tirarli probabilmente se
me ne arrivasse uno mi coglierebbe impreparato.
Saluti a tutti.
Fabrizio (Karate Shotokan, Kenpo)

 ne riparliamo quando lo traduci.......
Stai scherzando vero Giorgio?!?!  'O__o
E ora che impari un pò di inglese ;-PPP
Robin

 cosano" :-))))
Allora non dico più niente =)))
Robin

 me ne arrivasse uno mi coglierebbe >impreparato.
Questo non è vero e se fosse vero vorrebbe dire che noi dovremmo imparere
tutti i sistemi esistenti...
E' più ''''facile'''' come ci suggerisce la sagezza cinese imparere a
conoscere noi stessi, imparare a conoscere il nostro avversario (e per
conoscerlo non si intende necessariamente sapere in precedenza cosa fà e
quali sono le sue strategie, anche perchè come ho detto prima, spesso e
volentieri questo non è possibile...) così da vincere cento battaglie su
cento..
Robin

cento..
Per me "conoscere me stesso" significa anche capire e soprattutto "sentire"
come si muove e come si dovrebbe muovere il mio corpo anche con tecniche che
difficilmente userei in combattimento, e visto che un mio ipotetico
avversario dovrebbe avere anche lui due braccia e due gambe potrei avere un
idea di come si muove lui e cosa sente in quella stessa situazione, e,
magari, poter usare la cosa a suo svantaggio.
Forse non siamo su posizioni poi così distanti....
Grazie per gli spunti.
Fabrizio (Karate Shotokan & Kenpo)

cento..


cento..


scusate, devo aver fatto casino.....

modified into a kind of beautiful dance.
Si, lo aveva gia' detto.
Ehm... gia' finito o_O?
Che ha detto di nuovo ?
Tante parole per dire la solita cosa: sono rare le scuole di KF.
Vero, ed e' un peccato.
Il paragone col BJJ imho e' fuori luogo.
Insomma e' come scrivere un articolo dove si dice che
e' meglio la pasta alla carbonara fatta con tuttti gli ingredienti 
di quella al pesto dove manca il basilico. E grazie,
e' lapalissiano. Ma cio' non significa che quando amendue 
i piatti siano ben cucinati uno debba essere per forza migliore
dell'altro.
Ciao,
Guaiamum
[ JJ, JKD, ex Capoeira :°-(°°° ]
[D.A.C.I.E.] 
[ Egg Shen: <Dobbiamo raccogliere le nostre forze... 
             perche' ora qui ci sono... nuvole e tuoni ...>
  Zio Chu: <Il simbolo delle difficolta' che incontreremo!>
  Egg Shen: <Gia', ma riusciremo a mettere ordine in questo Caos ...> ]

 evidentemente tanto scontato non e'... o_O 
Ti giuro: non lo è.


Ti giuro: non lo è.
Vabbuo', ci credo.
Ciao,
Guaiamum
[JJ, JKD, ex Capoeira :°-(°°°]
[G.F.C., D.A.C.I.E.] 

 E ora che impari un pò di inglese ;-PPP
non e' questione di impararlo......
solo non ho voglia di perdere il triplo del tempo a leggere un msg in
inglese nella gerarchia it
(visto che faccio gia' fatica cosi' a seguirvi.....)
Giorgio (Hung Gar)
"Sei troppo vecchio per smettere di allenarti! " (un amico)

 E non fanno di certo sport.
Capisco, ma anche la boxe venica usata per questo, e di certo non è un'AM 
(ma che cosè, ni realtà, un'AM?)


(ma che cosè, ni realtà, un'AM?)
( Tu che dici? )


 ( Tu che dici? )
(non lo so e non me frega: per me va bene qualunque cosa mi vada bene)


(non lo so e non me frega: per me va bene qualunque cosa mi vada bene)
(anch'io preferisco la pratica alle definizioni)


 (visto che faccio gia' fatica cosi' a >seguirvi.....)
Ok, mi dispiace..
Impara comunque l'inglese ;-PPPPP
Robin

 (anch'io preferisco la pratica alle definizioni)
(allora siamo in due)


> Impara comunque l'inglese ;-PPPPP
Sono gia' costretto a leggere in inglese x lavoro.....ma 'sti manuali
potrebbero anche tradurli.....
