Newsgroup: it.sport.arti-marziali
Titolo: Arieccoci sul Chi

Mi è capitato (non troppo casualmete a dire il vero) di rincontrare sul web
la pagina di Rich Mooney, un maestro(credo Inglese) che postò su ISAM
qualche tempo fa per fare pubblicità ai suoi stage.
Ho visto i video che ho trovato nella pagina:
http://www.wheelers-isshinryu.com/Pages/mooney.html
e mi sono sembrati per lo meno... interessanti.
Spiego per chi non ha voglia di scaricarseli: Sifu Rich impedisce ad un
aggressore di colpirlo con un coltello; Rich fa cadere un maestro di karate;
rich sposta una fila di persone.
Ma fa tutte queste cose senza toccare nessuno.
Commenti? Qualche esperienza simile?
Che ne pensate?
Ma, io sono scetticissimo su queste cose, però mi piacerebbe proprio provare
a vedere le sue "capacità" possono essere veramente sfruttate in
combattimento.
(P.S:Altri link con video: 
http://www.laugar9.freeserve.co.uk/linkongjing/
http://www.geocities.com/sijai2000/
)
Gyork (WingTsun & Escrima)
--
www.EWTOSanMarino.com

"Gyork" <webm...@ewtosanmarinoNOSPAM.com> ha scritto

oddio prendere per vero quello che scarichi da internet....
comunque questi fenomeni sembra esistano veramente.
sicuramente chi fa Aikido può esserti più utile, personalmente
non ho mai vissuto niente di simile, ma sono alla ricerca di esperienze
del genere.. non si sa mai che un giorno quando il mio fisico
non cela farà più possa sconfiggere 10 nemici senza muovere un dito...
(o addirittura far contenta la mia signora ;) )

 Ma, io sono scetticissimo su queste cose
Eccecredo, ti vai a cercare certe cose... :-)
VL

>Ma, io sono scetticissimo su queste cose
Concordo a pieno :-)
Io ho visto solo il primo filmin (il piu' corto), quello del maestro di 
karate che cade... Oddio chiamarlo maestro mi sembra una presa per il 
culo dei praticanti di karate... da un pungo di 30/35 cm. fuori misura, 
tutto sbilanciato avanti e a me da pure l'impressione che si butti a 
terra di proposito.
L'unico modo per provare questi pseudo poteri paranormali da marzialista 
  provarci in prima persona.
Comunque hai mai notato che questi non fanno mai gare?? Dico chissa' 
perche' non si iscrive a Pride o al World Valetudo Championship butta in 
terra tutti e si porta a casa un miliarduccio :-PP
Ciao, Krecker

 terra tutti e si porta a casa un miliarduccio :-PP
Cosa vuoi dire, che chi non fa gare non vale niente? Stai atento che ti
mando a casa Sifu Tassos!!! (qualche tempo fa avrei parlato di Bozpete..
:-\)
^__^


 e sbilanciarlo.
L'altro non è Rich Mooney !!!
E' ANDREA BRUNO TRAVESTITO !!!!!!!!
^_________^
--
                  \/
                 -   -
                 (.) (.)
----o0O0o--(_)--o0O0o----
<<Oh Grande Spirito,
Concedimi la serenità
Di accettare le cose
Che non posso cambiare,
Il coraggio di cambiare le cose
Che posso cambiare,
E la Saggezza di capirne la differenza.>>
               (Preghiera Cherokee)
Ciao
Franco

 Che ne pensate?
Mi pare che in quello dove sposta la fila di persone sia in realtà solo
il secondo
della fila (partendo da quello piu' lontano a RM) che si sposta,
trascinando poi fgli altri.
In palestra da me si narra un episodio in cui in una manifestazione
c'era
qualcosa del genere ed uno dei nostri si offri' volontario: fu parecchio
imbarazzante
per il dimostratore, che fino a quel momento aveva utilizzato solo i
propri
allievi....
Ciao ciao.
Max.
(Nippon Kempo)
www.carosella.it/nipponkempo.htm
-- 
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - 
http://www.Mailgate.ORG

 E' ANDREA BRUNO TRAVESTITO !!!!!!!!
ANTONIO , ANTONIO !!!!!
HO SBAGLIATO !!!!
^____^


 (o addirittura far contenta la mia signora ;) )
Io già ci riesco a soddisfare la mia signora senza muovere un dito.
Oss
e-M@n

 Io già ci riesco a soddisfare la mia signora senza muovere un dito.
Anche io riesco a soddisfare la tua signora senza muovere un dito...
mah !!!
:-PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP


 combattimento.
se non ci credi come puoi pensare di potere usare 'sta roba in
combattimento?
ciao e.. ti stringo la mano a distanza!
Malcom Exe
(Putaojiu Quan)


 ^____^
Ah, me pareva!
(P.S: Quando si fanno gli appelli ai lurker, fatti vivo, dacce 'na mano!
;oP)


 ciao e.. ti stringo la mano a distanza!
Ahi, hai una presa tosta! ;-)


Cosa vuoi dire, che chi non fa gare non vale niente? 
No, pero' per uno che vuol dimostrare qualcosa (ed uno che fa filmati
VUOL farlo) e' un'ottimo mezzo. Inoltre per uno che stende gli
avversari senza neppure toccarli non c'e' neppure la scusa che non
vuol rischiare di far male a se' o agli altri: insomma, la cosa puzza
alquanto.
Aspettate! Con quest'ultima frase mi sono illuminato! Ho capito la
tecnica, usato nello Kiaijustu, e vi svelo che si basa su una ferrea
dieta e regime igienico.
Ovvero, topi morti a colazione e niente spazzolino da denti.
:-p
saluti,
   deBrando [Kali]
--- Per scrivermi sostituisci "occupato" con "libero" ---

 >   provarci in prima persona.
occhio!, e' possibile anche essere suggestionati "senza volerlo"
l'interessante sarebbe , IMHO far provare simili esperimenti su oggetti
inanimati. (insuggestionabili per definizione!)
Giorgio (hung gar)
"Sei troppo vecchio per smettere di allenarti!" (un amico)

All Rights Reserved

 >Tim's Shen Wu Discussion Board: Concepts : Fah Jing and Kong jing
-CUT-
Miii! Perfetto, proprio quello che cercavo.
Impagabile! Grazie ^___^


 mah !!!
Ah, anche tu riesci a fare giù la volvere con i mawashi geri?
Oss
e-M@n

 Impagabile! Grazie ^___^
Cercavi che? La solita barzelletta di quelli che credono che il Qi sia
una misteriosa energia in qualche modo quantificabile in ambiente
sterile e alla fine non si capisce chi sia pià ridicolo se chi si
sottopone all'esperimento o chi sperimenta?
VL

 ha scritto

E_S_A_T_T_A_M_E_N_T__E !!  ;-)


 Impagabile! Grazie ^___^
Sono troppo stanco oggi per leggere stò pappiè de roba, Gyork fai il bravo
facci un super sunto ;-))
Robin
"Yee Yao Jai Gong"

"Gyork" <webm...@ewtosanmarinoNOSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:JBT58.7457$ue2.1...@twister1.libero.it...

ridete, ridete, scettici!
intanto io il Qi me lo sono imbottigliato e lo tengo in cantina.
Quando voglio spostare gli oggetti o attaccare a distanza mi stappo una
bottiglia di QI , ne bevo un po' (il ventre si gonfia circa a 3
centimetri sotto l'ombellico )
ed ecco fatto!
:-PPPP
Malcom exe


 :-\)
See, magari. :-))))
Ciao, Krecker
P.S. Ma a San Marino c'avete l'euro proprietario??

Giorgio Garabello wrote:

Se si tratta di suggestione e funziona a me va bene!!
Lo scopo non e' smerdare quel tizio, ma vedere se funge.
Ciao, Krecker

 (Putaojiu Quan)
Che buono !!! Quello sě che č QI  DOC !!! ^____^
--
Stefillo
[ boxe C= ]

 facci un super sunto ;-))
Lo faccio se mi dici una volta per tutte se il WT sia interno o esterno ;-)
No,dai, faccio un breve riassunto comunque.
Versione brevissima: Rich Mooney spara le cazzate.
Versione un po' meno breve:
Nell'articolo riportato si dice che tramite un famoso forum, Rich Monney
abbia dichiarato di avere la capacità di spostare le persone senza toccarle,
ma solo grazie al Chi.
Dopo una breve introduzione da parte dell'autore sulla presunta
NON-soprannaturalità del Chi (...) e sul fatto che spesso si tenda a
manipolare (sia consciamente che inconsciamente) sia le dimostrazioni che le
osservazioni di questa forza, si dice che il soggetto si presentava
particolarmente interessante perchè era disposto a dare dimostrazioni delle
sue capacità anche di fronte ad una "giuria" di scettici.
L'amministrore del forum ed un ingegnere biomedico (entrambi con decennale
esperienza marziale), assititi dai consigli del famoso illusionista, nonchè
"castiga maghi", James Randi , hanno convinto Mooney a sottoporsi ad una
serie di test durante un summer camp (credo si trattasse di una sorta di
stage).
I test si sono svolti secondo il consolidatissimo metodo del doppio cieco:
le "cavie" non sapevano cosa intendesse fare Mooney (se spostarli
avanti,indietro o farli stare in quiete, emanando i suoi fluidi alle spalle
delle persone attraverso un muro), ne i giudici erano informati sugli
intenti di Mooney.
In questo modo non si incorre nell'errore di essere indotti a fare (o a
vedere) quello che si vuole mettere alla prova.
Si esclude cioè la suggestione ed il condizionamento psicologico.
Le cavie dovevano solo stare fermi, al limite assecondare i movimenti se si
fossero sentiti tirare da qualche parte, i giudici arebbero dovuto dire,
vedendo le registrazioni, se i soggetti stavano effettivamente muovendosi ed
in che direzione.
I risultati sono definiti "non necessari di ulteriori analisi".
Infatti solo due soggetti, sui venti esaminati, hanno dato segno di
oscillazioni.
Uno era assitente di Mooney, l'altro era un fervente sostenitore del Chi.
Entrambi però hanno oscillato in direzioni che non erano quelle volute da
Mooney.
In pratica si sono mossi, ma fregandosene del Chi emanato, hanno solo
assecondato i movimenti spontanei del corpo.
L'articolo fa notare (giustamente) che non era intento dei giudici quello di
negare l'esistenza di un fenomeno, ma di certificare se quanto detto da
Mooney fosse corrispondente a realtà o meno.
Per cui, con buona pace dei cultori dell'occulto, neppure questa lampante
prova  può mettere la parola fine sui misteri del Chi.
(Anche se mette una bella pietrozza sul prestigio del sedicente maestro ;oP)


 (Anche se mette una bella pietrozza sul prestigio del sedicente maestro ;oP)
Parere personale: tutto il pappone di cui si sta discutendo molto poco ha a che
vedere col significato di Qi e sul suo utilizzo (concetto affatto misterioso che
decontestualizzato perde ogni significato) molto invece con la superbia e
l'ingenuità di certa gente.
Ciao
VL

 ha

Fammi capire: ritieni che il Chi sia un'insieme di fenomeni spiegabilissimi
ma difficilmente inquadrabili in una categoria (per complessità, numero di
variabili ecc..) o credi che il chi provenga da energie sconosciute e/o
soprannaturali?
Nella fattispecie: credi nel Chi che sposta la gente?


 soprannaturali?
Dovendo scegliere propenderei per approsimazione per la prima ipotesi
escludendo quasi del tutto la seconda :-)
Per quanto mi riguarda il Qi è un concetto saldato ad un contesto ben definito
(quello cinese), al pari di Yi (mente), Shen (spirito) Dan Tien ecc, e
funzionale a determinati scopi (allenamento marziale, miglioramento della
salute, elevazione spirituale).
Qualunque tentativo di isolarlo, analizzarlo o quantificarlo a mio modesto
parere è semplicemente una perdita di tempo.
L'idea che possa trattarsi di una forza fisica sconosciuta emessa a piacere da
qualcuno mi sembra abbia poco senso.
Che qualcuno, pur in buonafede, lo pensi, si sottoponga ad esperimenti di
laboratorio (magari per intascare il miliardo di J.Randi) e poi fallisca
miseramente non mi soprende affatto, ma chiaramente sono fatti suoi :-)
Ciao
VL

 Versione brevissima: Rich Mooney >spara le cazzate.
CUT
Grazie molte.
P.s. Vieni a livorno?


P.s. Vieni a livorno?
Cosa c'è di bello?
Ciao
Geppo
--
Non c'è peggior...
Nota: si informa la gentile clientela che tutte le sign sono
temporaneamente sospese, vista la pessima risposta del pubblico...
Il servizio verrà ripristinato solo su richiesta degli utenti.

 Non so se ho reso l'idea, >eventualmente poi ti faccio un >esempio...
Fammi un esempio anche se credo di aver capito cosa intendi, ma a parer mio,
sei fuori strada...


sei fuori strada...
Ehm... be' rimandiamo l'esempio a un post più dettagliato. Comunque
insomma tu punteresti tutto sulla spiegazione 'filologica'?


 insomma tu punteresti tutto sulla >spiegazione 'filologica'?
No no, punterei come dicevo prima sull'idea di base, sui principi, sul
metodo d'allenamento e sulle "tecniche" ;-)
Robin
"Yee ching jai dong"

metodo d'allenamento e sulle "tecniche" ;-)
Che ne dici di qualche esempio? :D


 Che ne dici di qualche esempio? :D
Siccome io non sono abile nello spiegarmi con le parole, incollo quà sotto
un articolo che postò su questo ng Ermanno alcuni mesi fà, mi sembra molto
interessante e nonostante sia solo un punto di vista, a parer mio è chiaro e
ben fatto.
Neijia-Waijia:
Blood Brothers Or Distant Cousins?
by Zhang Yun
Chinese martial arts enjoy a great reputation, having been developed in a
large country with a rich traditional culture and a long recorded history.
Consequently, many different styles were invented and developed in great
detail over several thousand years. Today although more than four hundred
styles handed down from older times are practiced in China, about one
hundred forty styles are popularly practiced with their own lineages,
complete principles, and systematic training methods. Some styles have
spread far and wide even to the whole world.
Chinese martial arts developed from simple to complex, from low level to
high level, from just fighting skill to combining all traditional cultural
concepts. The goals of a traditional martial arts training system are to
increase one's physical abilities via a method of systematic training, to
master effective self-defense skills, to improve one's personality and
morality, and to achieve good health and body condition to promote a long
life. No matter what style, these basic goals should be followed. So from
this point, many people say "All styles are in one family."
Although from this perspective, many (if not all) styles want to reach
similar goals, there are still some differences especially in principles and
training methods. About five hundred years ago, when these differences
became sufficiently significant, people started to separate Chinese martial
arts into two big groups: Neijia or Internal Kungfu and Waijia or External
Kungfu. People usually say that Neijia and Waijia are two big branches of
the Chinese martial arts tree, coming from the same source, but practiced,
researched, and developed in different ways. Although Neijia and Waijia may
use different concepts, they have many similar skills and have influenced
each other over the years. Although sometimes it is too difficult to
separate Neijia and Waijia clearly, it is necessary and important for
martial arts practitioners to attempt to understand the differences between
these two distinct approaches.
1. Brief History of Neijia and Waijia
Before considering personal interpretations, one should examine the
traditional ideas of these concepts. First, one should explore the earliest
records differentiating between internal and external kungfu.
The earliest written records differentiating the Neijia and Waijia
distinction are believed to be found in three articles written close in time
and in nearby locations. These three articles are:
(1) "The Tombstone Inscription of Mr. Wang Zhengnan" by Huang Lizhou (1669).
(2) "Neijia Quan" ("Internal Fist") by Huang Baijia (1676).
(3) "The Biography of Zhang Songxi" in "The Government Records and Annals of
Ningbo City" (1683 version?).
The most important information which these articles brought to us are: (1)
the time period when Neijia was generated; (2) that Neijia was developed and
separated from Waijia; (3) the differences between Neijia and Waijia; and
(4) description of some characteristics and features of Neijia.
First, one considers the time period of the birth of Neijia. The Ming
(1368-1644) and Qi (1644-1911) Dynasties were the golden time of Chinese
martial arts development. From the Song Dynasty (960-1279), for more than
four hundred years, the entire country was always at war and in turmoil.
Although the government did not encourage martial arts, martial arts still
developed quickly and widely. But at that time, the styles were not
separated clearly.
During the Ming Dynasty, different styles were formed and systematized and
special skills were developed in great detail, as discussed in General Qi
Jiguang's book "Ji Xiao Xin Shu." At that time Chinese martial arts were
developed to a high level and new skills, concepts, and ideas were developed
extensively. Presumably, Neijia is an example of just such a new and unique
concept developed at that time.
The three above-mentioned articles included similar information relating
that during 1500 to 1700 there was a new martial arts style called Neijia
Quan that was practiced in Ninhbo and Wenzhou areas of the southeast China.
One popular account is that Wudang Mountain Taoist monk Zhang Sanfeng
invented this style. The next well-known figure in connection with Neijia
Quan was Wang Zong of Shanxi province. Reputedly, Chen Zhoutong learned this
skill with Wang Zong and then brought to his hometown Wenzhou of Zhejiang
province. After Chen, there were other famous Neijia Quan masters in several
generations were famous.
These articles delineate a relatively clear lineage of Neijia Quan at that
time because the government record is generally regarded as credible, Huang
Lizhou was a very famous scholar and Huang Baijia was a direct student in
this group. Consequently, many people believe this is an accurate historical
account of the development of Neijia Quan, with the notable exception of the
doubt of the identity of its originator.
Second, most new ideas are not generated suddenly from one person's brain,
but develop out of some previous idea. From the above articles, is likely
that Neijia came from Waijia but developed into its own variation. It is
said that Shaolin was at the top level of Waijia. Zhang Sanfeng (or some
other early master) probably studied Shaolin and then made changes with new
concepts to invent Neijia. Maybe this popular view is not a true story;
however, it is probable that Neijia evolved and then separated from Waijia.
Third, Neijia specifically brought some new concepts in training and
application principles. All three articles related some principle and
stories which describe the differences between Waijia and Neijia. Actually,
the term Waijia did not exist before this time. When the Neijia concept
arose, in order to separate it from traditional concepts and express its
different concept, all other styles were called Waijia in these three
articles. In other words, when the difference between the new Neijia concept
and the old Waijia concept was big enough, two new names were used to
differentiate the two concepts.
From these three articles, it appears that there was a new martial arts
style called Neijia Quan which was taught from the Ming to Qi Dynasties with
its own principles and clear lineage although the original source was not
clear. This style was taught in north, middle and southeast of China, but it
was not popular. About one hundred years later, it became lost (Although
today some masters suddenly claimed they still practice it, nobody can prove
if their skills are the original Neijia Quan.). But this Neijia principle
was still developed in some different ways.
Later, three great styles, Xingyi Quan, Taiji Quan, and Bagua Quan, were
developed which used different ways to get the similar concept with Neijia
Quan. Usually people think these three great styles inherited and developed
Neijia Quan concept. In 1892 in Beijing, under the initiative of Bagua
Master Cheng Tinghua, some great masters from these styles made a decision
to unite these three styles together in one family and call themselves
Neijia or Neijia Quan.
From that time, gradually most people accepted this decision. Today it has
already become a popular and generally recognized designation. Because the
original Neijia Quan art was already lost, from this point this article will
use the term Neijia to refer collectively to Taiji, Bagua, and Xingyi.
2. What are the main differences between Neijia and Waijia?
Because Neijia developed from Waijia, there are many similarities. Some
people even think it is wrong to separate them. But if one looks deeply at
the principles and skills of these two styles, one can find real differences
significant enough to separate them into two different styles. Separating
Neijia and Waijia is quite reasonable and will make many things much clearer
in practice and recognizes the process of Chinese martial arts development.
Without understand the difference, one cannot really understand Chinese
martial arts deeply. The following analysis highlights some major
differences between Neijia and Waijia.
(1) Philosophy: Buddhism or Taoism
In China, traditional philosophy has had a deep influence on all aspects of
Chinese culture. Every high level idea or skill generally has been
influenced by one or another philosophical idea. Martial arts have been
developed in the same manner; so, when people want to push their skill to a
higher level, often they apply some philosophical idea to expand their
principles and training.
Usually people called Waijia a Shaolin style, because most Waijia styles
respect Shaolin style, and they even think that the original source of their
styles came from Shaolin Temple. So the basic philosophy of Waijia arts
tends to follow Buddhism.
Usually people called Neijia a Wudang style, because all Neijia styles tend
to follow Taoism, and Wudang Mountain is the most famous Taoist holy place.
The other reason is because people respect Taoist Master Zhang Sanfeng as a
founder of original Neijia style. Master Zhang is believed to have practiced
his Taoism in Wudang Mountain for many years. Thus people respect Wudang and
think that the Neijia concept came from Wudang.
Although Waijia and Neijia follow different philosophies, there are many
similarities between them. In China, the most popular Buddhism style is
(Chan) Zen. Shaolin Temple is recognized as the place of origin of Chan. The
basic Chan idea is a mixture of the original Buddhism and Taoism. This
suggests that Chan includes some Taoism. On the other hand, one of the most
famous Taoism sects is Quan Zhan (Complete Truth). Zhang Sanfeng supposedly
belonged to this style. One of the main ideas of the Quan Zhan sect is that
the three main philosophies, Taoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism, are based
on the same principles, so therefore they should be united together in
practice. These factors may have produced the many philosophical
similarities between Waijia and Neijia.
In fact there are some styles between Waijia and Neijia having
characteristics of both branches. Such styles make the separation between
Waijia and Neijia unclear. For example, Tongbei is usually considered a
Waijia style, but it follows Taoist philosophy and incorporates internal
principles. Another example is that some Xingyi masters from Shanxi refer to
Xingyi as an outside branch of Shaolin style because Ji Jike stayed and
learned in Shaolin Temple about ten years when he was young.
To avoid a common misconception, it should be emphasized that in suggesting
that Waijia and Neijia follow Buddhism and Taoism respectively, refers to
philosophy and not religion. In China philosophy and religions are usually
mixed together. For example, Taoist religion uses Taoist philosophy as its
basic principle. But when people use Taoist philosophy, it does not mean
they belong to the religion group.
(2) Basic principle: Increase or change the human natural ability
The approach of Waijia practice is to increase human natural ability. The
basic human abilities for fighting are speed, force, and natural (normal)
reaction. All skills follow these abilities. People want to increase
absolute speed and force. Waijia skill training is designed and developed
based on the body's natural reaction, what is often referred to as moving
externally. From this standpoint it is relatively direct and clear for
people to understand this way of training.
The approach of Neijia practice is to change the human natural ability.
Neijia practitioners consider that changing the human natural ability is
much more important than to increase it. Neijia people want to be quick and
powerful in relative ways. They also want to change their natural reaction
by training directed by the mind, what is often referred to as moving
internally. Although there are some practices in Neijia for increasing the
human ability too, compared to changing, increasing the natural ability is
always secondary in importance and desirability. Thus there are many things
that are not direct and clear, and even too difficult for people to
understand.
Understanding this point is very important because many skills and technical
terms are the same in these two styles, but actually mean different things.
If one is not careful, one may become confused by surface similarities.
High level Waijia training also tries to change the human natural ability.
In Neijia practice, the human natural ability also gets improved. So at the
top level, Neijia and Waijia often have similar results; it is called
"practice internal and external together", but use different ways to reach
this level. Perhaps the Neijia idea generated from this point? However,
Neijia does not wait until reaching a high level to develop the changes but
makes the changes from the beginning.
(3) Training way: From outside to inside or from inside to outside
It is incorrect to assume that Waijia practitioners just practice external
things and Neijia practitioners just practice internal things. Waijia and
Neijia practitioners must practice both. The difference is that they use
different ways of training. It is said that Waijia practices from outside
(Wai) to inside (Nei) and Neijia practices from inside to outside.
For Waijia practice, people first train their physical body like muscles,
bones and skin and do not emphasis inside training in the beginning. From
this way, they can improve their physical ability first. Then, generally,
they will undergo inside training for internal components, like shen, yi,
and qi.
For Neijia practice, people emphasize inside training from the very
beginning. After some basic training that is similar to Waijia, internal
components practice is emphasized early in training, along with work on the
improvement of the physical body. Neijia practitioners tend to think that
without improving the inside, outside improvement cannot enable one to reach
high level skill.
This difference in approaches causes a lot of training details to be very
different in each style. Understanding these differences will be helpful in
understanding the two styles. A common misunderstanding is to think that
Neijia practices Qi but Waijia does not, possibly many Waijia practitioners
do a lot of physical practice and many Neijia practitioners do a lot of
internal practice. Consequently, many people misconceive that Neijia is
necessarily a high level skill.
(4) Basic skill: To use the External Jin or the Internal Jin
Jin (or jing) or trained force is the most important training component in
Chinese martial arts. Jin is force but not natural force. Jin is force
developed by special training, or perhaps that one trains natural force to
become Jin (i.e., "trained force"). There are two basic kinds of Jin: Wai
Jin - External Jin and Nei Jin - Internal Jin, which are differently trained
and used. For example, External Jin is conspicuous when it is released.
Internal Jin is inconspicuous when it is released.
In Waijia, people practice and use the External Jin a lot. It is the major
thing, and the Internal Jin is just the ancillary thing. In Neijia, the
Internal Jin is preferred as the major thing and the External Jin is the
ancillary thing.
(5) Fighting tactic: To use initiating attack or to use quiet to defend
moving
In the Waijia fighting principle, one is the master of fighting and attempts
to control everything tactically from the beginning. Waijia designs
everything in the training, such as practicing attacking and defending
skills based on what one thinks one's opponent will do. Then in fighting,
one attempts to have the engagement simply follow these designs so that one
can get control. It is called initiating attack fighting.
In the Neijia fighting principle, one should keep quiet and let one's
opponent take control in the beginning, waiting and leading the opponent to
make a mistake. A Neijia practitioner learns how to follow the opponent and
wait for a chance. One should not necessarily design any particular tactic,
but should learn how to know the opponent. Neijia teaches how to keep
changing in order to follow the opponent according to what he does at any
particular moment. It is called "to use quiet to defend moving" and "yield
yourself to follow your opponent".
Waijia fighting principle is direct and clearcut. People think that if
everything is in your hand you can control it. Never give your opponent a
chance to control anything. It is the best way to win in fighting. Here the
effect or result is the most important concern. Neijia fighting principle is
not direct and clearcut. People think that it is not easy to take control
all time in a fighting. So only if you can know your opponent well, then you
can really control him. Do not worry whether your opponent controls
something. He may get control but that also gives you a chance to know and
control him. It is the safest and most efficient way to win in fighting.
Here the efficient way is the most important concern.
(6) Other Issues
There are some other issues to be considered when discussing how to separate
Waijia and Neijia. For example, in China when a person become a Buddhist
monk, people say he goes the outside of his family. Because Shaolin martial
arts came from Buddhist temple, follow Buddhist philosophy, and Buddhist
monks practice it, it is said that this style came from the outside (wai)
family (jia) people - Waijia. On the other hand, the Emperor's palace is
usually called Da Nei (the great inside); therefore, everything from the
palace were called inside things. Taiji, Xingyi, and Bagua were taught in
the emperor's family in the early days in Beijing and then became famous
from that point. Thus people usually said that because these three styles
came from the inside of the palace or the inside of emperor's family they
were called Neijia.
Of course each group has their own reasons to explain their ideas. Trying to
understand different views of different groups may help in better
understanding the nature of Neijia. The foregoing discussion merely
highlighted some common views on the differences between Neijia and Waijia.
Although there are some differences between Neijia and Waijia, they were not
developed in two isolated places, but were bound together by countless ties
and influenced each other. Practitioners of both groups commonly exchanged
their experience. Consequently, the separation between Neijia and Waijia is
not clear, or perhaps it should be stated that the separation is clear from
principle but is not clear from the practice of these respective styles.
Some styles such as Baji or Tongbei may be between Neijia and Waijia. Even
in one style, many things may overlap. So it is often said that Neijia and
Waijia are not only different but also similar.
3. How to understand Neijia and Waijia
Neijia and Waijia are two big branches of the Chinese martial arts tree
which offer us different ways to study martial arts. One cannot say one is
better than the other, but one can say which one is better for one's own
study. There is no better style but there are better practitioners. The most
important thing is to find out which one is more suitable for you depending
on your personal characteristics and body condition.
Unfortunately, because the development level of skills and principles in
each style is not balanced, many styles (especially in the Waijia group)
never progress beyond lower level skill. However, this does not mean that
Waijia is lower level skill than Neijia. But this confuses many people, so
one needs to be careful when deciding what style to practice.
(1) Different training approaches
Because of the principles and practice follow the natural way of moving the
body, for Waijia in the beginning it is easy to study but difficult for
people to achieve a high level. On the other hand, Neijia is difficult to
study in the beginning but easy to advance in study. For Waijia most people
can achieve middle level skill, but few people can advance to high level
skill. For Neijia, most people cannot even reach middle level skill, but
many middle level people have a better chance to reach higher level skill.
Perhaps this is why famous Neijia masters are more numerous than famous
Waijia masters despite the greater number of Waijia practitioners over
Neijia practitioners in the past one hundred years of Chinese martial arts
history.
If one practices Waijia, in the beginning one's good personal physical
condition will bring more obvious advantage than if from practicing Neijia.
This is because Waijia follow natural ability or the body's natural way of
moving. But for Neijia practice, sometimes natural ability can just be a
disadvantage or hindrance to acquiring Neijia skill. This is why for
beginners Waijia is much easier than Neijia. When people attempt to advance
from middle level to high level skill, even for Waijia, the most important
thing is internal training.
For most people who have trained for a long time in Waijia it will be
difficult to catch up in the internal training. But for most middle level
Neijia people, it will be not too difficult. This is why many Waijia
practitioners learn Neijia when they get older. They know what they want but
they feel their Waijia training is too difficult to achieve higher level
skill due to the decline in physical ability when one gets older. They want
to use Neijia to help themselves in this way. Also this is why many Neijia
practitioners want to mix some Waijia skill in the beginning of their
training. They are worried that their beginning level Neijia skill is not
good enough for fighting.
The different training ways of Neijia and Waijia are just like two different
roads going to the top of a mountain. One road is easier in the beginning
but more difficult later. The other is more difficult in the beginning but
easier later. If one reaches the top of the mountain the road used does not
matter. But before taking one road over another, choosing the road which is
more suitable for oneself is very important. Of course there are many things
which will influence one's decision. No matter whether one chooses to
practice Neijia or Waijia, two things to remember are to work hard and not
get lost, else you never have a chance to reach the top of the mountain.
Presently, there is a serious problem that arises because the Neijia idea is
not direct and clear like the Waijia idea which people are easily able to
follow naturally. Even though the number of Neijia practitioners has rapidly
increased in recent years, there are an insufficient number of qualified
teachers. Consequently, many students misunderstand their practice and even
though they think they learn Neijia skill, actually practice Taiji, Xingyi,
Bagua, etc. just like Waijia. Inevitably, this not only hinders their
progress, but even worse, their activities result in further dissemination
of misinformation and misunderstanding about Neijia.
(2) Can one mix practicing both together?
This is a common and interesting question. Generally because Waijia and
Neijia are very different in many aspects, it is too difficult to mix these
practices together. But on the other hand, because the final goals of both
styles are same, it may be possible to mix these practices together. Most of
the time people suggest that one, especially if a beginner, focus on one of
these styles first until he can do it well and then to try the other. It is
good to understand one style easily and quickly but sometimes this makes it
more difficult to understand the other. The answer really depends on one's
personality and study environment. If one can separate different practices
clearly and can understand what one is doing each time (usually one will
need help from one's teacher), maybe one can practice both at the same time
and improve in both. But if one always mixes up both styles' concepts, it
would be better to separate practice so as to focus on only one of these
styles. In history, there were many great masters who just studied one style
in their whole life. There were many masters who studied several different
styles and were great in each one.
Neijia and Waijia are different in many aspects but have the same goal. When
the Waijia principle and practice were developed to a high level, the Neijia
concept was generated from it. This suggests that Neijia started from a
higher level stage in the beginning. Neijia has been practiced, researched,
and developed much quicker than Waijia in these last three hundred years.
Its charm attracted many educated people to study it so that its principles
became much more developed than Waijia. Although from the standpoint of
techniques Waijia is richer, Neijia has more high level principles. One can
say that each has its strong points to recommend it.
Whatever one chooses to study, it is important to remember the goal is
always to practice both external and internal aspects of the body, to
improve both one's martial skill and morality, to promote good health and
long life, and to understand the philosophy of the life. Only in this way
can one find enjoyment in one's practice.
(published in Internal Martial Arts, Issue 1, June, 1999) © Six Harmonies
Press

> Lo scopo non e' smerdare quel tizio, ma vedere se funge.
ho capito, ma se funge su di un comodino, funge praticamente su tutto no?
Giorgio (Hung Gar)


 un articolo .....
'A Rob, vedi de strigne che c'ho 'r crampo ar dito !!!
^___^
--
                  \/
                 -   -
                 (.) (.)
----o0O0o--(_)--o0O0o----
<<Oh Grande Spirito,
Concedimi la serenità
Di accettare le cose
Che non posso cambiare,
Il coraggio di cambiare le cose
Che posso cambiare,
E la Saggezza di capirne la differenza.>>
               (Preghiera Cherokee)
Ciao
Franco

 ^___^
Cioč?!?! Che vuoi??? Non mi starai mica chiedendo di tradurti tutto
l'articolo, vero??? ^______^
Sei un folle!!! ;-))
P.s. e poi č scritto in maniera cosě semplice...


 P.s. Vieni a livorno?
Oops, mi cogli impreparato.
Se non ricordo male ci dovrebbe essere uno stage a fine febbraio, verso il
20, vero?
Se č cosě vengo, se č prima del 18 invece no, ho un esame :-\


 Se è così vengo, se è prima del 18 >invece no, ho un esame :-\
Allora ci si sente telefonicamente..


 Dal 20 al 24
Uhm, sei sicuro?
Stasera ho controllato le date in palestra e mi sembrava che lo stage ci
fosse dal 27/2 al 3/3.
Comunque dovrei farcela per il venerdì.


 Comunque dovrei farcela per il venerdì.
 'O__o mi sà che hai ragione..
Stavolta un pizza ci scappa....da mangiare. ^_____^
Robin
"Kuen Yao Sum Faat!"