Newsgroup: it.sport.arti-marziali
Titolo: Is It Wing Chun or Ving Tsun?

http://64.224.111.216/archives/blackbelt/1992/jul92/wingchun/wingchun.html
Is It Wing Chun or Ving Tsun?
Which Style Did Bruce Lee Study?
by Mark V. Wiley
Bruce Lee's first formal training In the martial arts came in the Chinese
stick wing chun. The Cantonese spelling of wing chun is "ving tsun," but the
two are one in the same.
Coined "the science of infighting," ving tsun kung fu is the vehicle that
propelled the late Bruce Lee to superstardom and later formed the nucleus of
his Jun Fan kung fu.
 Or was it?
 Didn't Lee's first formal martial arts training come in wing chun kung fu,
not ving tsun?
 Actually, both answers are correct. Wing chun is ving tsun, and vice versa.
Ving tsun is simply the Cantonese spelling of wing chun.
Technique #1
 Many martial artists, however, have long been confused about the difference
between wing chun and ving tsun. And while there are those who claim there
are differences between the two, and that certain moves in ving tsun have
been omitted from wing chun, no conclusive evidence of any differences has
ever been presented.
 That said, what is so special about ving tsun that Lee chose it as the
foundation for his martial arts training?
 Ving tsun's effectiveness rests in its concentration on infighting skills.
While other martial arts dabble in close-quarter defense, ving tsun embraces
it completely. Ving tsun was originally developed by Buddhist nun Ng Miu as
a means of defeating larger and stronger opponents through control of the
body's "centerline." The Chinese style has been so closely analyzed since
then that its movements have become not only an art form and effective means
of self-defense, but a science as well. To truly appreciate the "art" of
ving tsun, one must also understand the style's scientific methods.
Following are some of ving tsun's scientific principles.
Concepts
 Clear concepts are a requisite of ving tsun's scientific methods. Concepts
are mental images constructed from either generalizations or specific
details. From ving tsun's conceptual foundation, facts were established
through observation. Parallels were then drawn after the classification and
scrutinization of these facts. When these parallels were assumed to be true
(i.e., possessing within their structure the ability to overcome a stronger
opponent in the confines of close quarters), they became principles.
Following are six concepts that form the backbone of ving tsun's scientific
methods.
Distance. The understanding and ability to control distance is a crucial
element in the implementation of ving tsun techniques. Since they are
considered to be most effective at close range, ving tsun practitioners
spend years developing the ability to interpret the proper distance
necessary to defeat an opponent, and the proper method of "bridging the gap"
between themselves and their opponent.
Positioning. Proper positioning is a key element of ving tsun. The position
of the ving tsun practitioner and his opponent must be realized, and a means
of changing position through footwork and body shifting must be mastered if
a positive result is to be achieved. Through the practice of ving tsun's
three forms and wooden dummy training, the ving tsun stylist develops an
acute awareness of proper body positioning and spatial relationships.
Offense and defense. In ving tsun, the concepts of offense and defense are
not mutually exclusive, but instead complementary. After a desired distance
and position have been achieved, the ving tsun practitioner does not think
in terms of offense and defense (since they are often the same), but rather
in terms of occupying his own centerline.
Movement. Movement skills are developed and utilized during the practice of
ving tsun sensitivity drills called chi sao (sticking hands) and chi gerk
(sticking feet). Chi sao develops sensitivity to an opponent's arm placement
and body shifting. Chi gerk develops the ability to step into an opponent's
center of gravity or "center point," which negates the opponent's position
and unbalances his stance.
Economy of motion. According to some martial artists, it is not how fast
something travels, but how soon it gets there that counts. This maxim is
representative of ving tsun techniques, in which directness is the key to
superior results. Ving tsun techniques follow the principle that the
shortest distance between two points is a straight line. Therefore all ving
tsun tech- niques are aimed toward the centerline. Speed is rooted in the
efficiency of ving tsun movements.
Sensitivity. Because ving tsun stylists are expected to possess an acute
aware- ness of pressure through touch, their infighting skills may be
unequaled. The ability to interpret an opponent・s intention, direction, and
energy before he has had a chance to act on them gives ving tsun
practitioners a great advantage in an altercation.
Theories
 Ving tsun theories are methodical classifications of concepts which provide
a structure for the grouping of various physical movements. The theories
provide a means of categorizing pertinent infighting knowledge. The three
theories which follow from the foundation from which ving tsun's principles
are based are:
Centerline. The centerline is an imaginary line that runs through the center
of the body and perpendicular to it. It is used as a reference to determine
the shortest distance between two points. The ving tsun practitioner is
trained to control the centerline and negate his opponent's linear attacks
by presenting them with a barrier, such as the hands. Circular attacks cause
the ving tsun stylist some problems, slowing his reaction time and opening
his centerline to counterattack.
Facing. Ving tsun practitioners are trained to face all oncoming attacks,
and to do so with "equal hands." One hand dictates where the other should
go. This so-called "replacement of hands" can only be achieved by those who
employ equal hands through facing. In contrast, opponents who have "unequal"
hands possess an inherent weakness: if their lead hand is trapped, their
rear hand must travel too far a distance to control the open line of attack.
Ving tsun stylists, however, hold their hands at approximately the same
distance away from the body, thereby making them "equal," and thus
shortening the time necessary for the second hand to interact with the lead
hand.
Immovable elbow. When employing ving tsun techniques, the elbow must be kept
one and one-half fist's distance from the body. This is the proper distance
at which attack and defense can coexist, and also provides the greatest
leverage. If the arms are held too far from the body, your techniques will
be weaker and less effective, and you will be more susceptible to attack. If
the arms are held too close to the body, your techniques can be easily
jammed and your counterattacks restricted.
Abstractions
Bruce Lee (above) put ving tsun's many fighting theories and principles into
practice by training on the wooden dummy, a multi-limbed replica of an
assailant.
 Ving tsun's fighting concepts are purposely abstract. The very process of
or- ganizing a methodological approach to combat--a non-structured event--
involves abstracting from reality. Unfortunately, the abstractness of ving
tsun's theories often prompt other stylists to view the art's principles as
impractical and unrealistic. This could not be further from the truth. Ving
tsun's concepts are practical for the simple reason that they are abstract.
The reality of combat is too complex to be very meaningful. Ving tsun is
based on theory in order to give meaning to an abundance of facts--which
would otherwise be confusing and useless-and put them into a more usable and
practical form.
Technique #2
Principles
 Ving tsun's principles were developed from clear concepts and sound
fighting strategies. Strict adherence to these principles dictates whether a
ving tsun practitioner will be successful in employing the art's physical
movements. If the principles are abandoned, ving tsun will be ineffective in
both theory and practice. The primary principles are:
Always keep your hands along the centerline.
The opponent's nearest limb is the most dangerous.
Don't fight with an opponent's force, flow with it.
Never cross your hands.
The shortest distance between two points is a straight line.
All techniques are aimed toward the opponent's centerline.
What comes, stop; what goes, deliver.
Attack and defense should be simultaneous.
All principles are universal for the hands, feet, and weapons.
Training Methods
 A constant struggle for perfection in postures and movements is the nucleus
of ving tsun. Through its scientific methods, it was found that a frail
person could indeed defeat a much stronger and larger opponent. After ving
tsun's theories and principles were established, scientific training methods
were devised. It is through the dedicated practice of ving tsun's three
choreographed combat forms-sil lim tao, chum kil, and bil jee--that
practitioners perfect the art's deflections, traps, strikes, kicks and
footwork. These techniques are enhanced through the practice of two man sets
called pak sao, lop sao, chi sao, and chi gerk. These sets help the ving
tsun stylist develop acute sensitivity, balance, coordination, timing and
relaxation. All of the practitioner's skills can be fine-tuned on the mook
jong (wooden dummy) training apparatus.
Technique #3
 Once the ving tsun practitioner has mastered the empty-hand system, he
begins training with ving tsun's two weapons, the staff and butterfly
knives. This is the final phase of ving tsun-and wing chun-training.
 Perhaps now you understand why Bruce Lee was so impressed with ving tsun.
Or was it wing chun? No matter which way it is spelled, ving tsun--or wing
chun--is one of the most effective and scientifically advanced fighting
methods in the world today, despite the fact it was created centuries ago,
and by a Buddhist nun no less.

his centerline to counterattack.
Uhm, sembra un punto debole. C'è qualche praticante di WT se sa in che
modo Leung Ting ha cercato di porre rimedio al problema, sempre che se
lo sia posto? A quanto ho capito, LT dovrebbe avere apportato dei
miglioramenti consistenti all'intero sistema.
Ciao
Geppo
--
Non c'è peggior troll di chi non vuol capire

"The ving tsun practitioner is
trained to control the centerline and negate his opponent's linear attacks
by presenting them with a barrier, such as the hands. Circular attacks cause
the ving tsun stylist some problems, slowing his reaction time and opening
his centerline to counterattack."
Questa affermazione dimostra che l'articolista non capisce quello che scrive
e che forse pratica (male), oppure che il vt non è uguale, almeno, al WT.
:-))
pensierino delle 15: "magari tutti gli attacchi fossero circolari,
magari..."  ;-)
ciao   lob
-- 
Posted from [212.210.65.78] 
via Mailgate.ORG Server - 
http://www.Mailgate.ORG

"The ving tsun practitioner is
trained to control the centerline and negate his opponent's linear attacks
by presenting them with a barrier, such as the hands. Circular attacks cause
the ving tsun stylist some problems, slowing his reaction time and opening
his centerline to counterattack."
Questa affermazione nega la validità delle altre, dimostra che l'articolista
non capisce quello che scrive e probabilmente pratica (male).
Oppure che il vt è diverso, almeno, dal WT.   :-))
pensierino delle tre del pomeriggio: "ce ne fossero di più di attacchi
circolari in giro..."  ;-)


"The ving tsun practitioner is
trained to control the centerline and negate his opponent's linear attacks
by presenting them with a barrier, such as the hands. Circular attacks cause
the ving tsun stylist some problems, slowing his reaction time and opening
his centerline to counterattack."
Questa affermazione dimostra che l'articolista non ha capito quello che ha
detto nel resto dell'articolo (e se lo pratica, mi immagino i risultati!),
oppure che il ving tsun è diverso, almeno, dal WT:  :-))


"The ving tsun practitioner is
trained to control the centerline and negate his opponent's linear attacks
by presenting them with a barrier, such as the hands. Circular attacks cause
the ving tsun stylist some problems, slowing his reaction time and opening
his centerline to counterattack."
Questa affermazione dimostra che l'articolista non ha capito quello che ha
scritto prima (e se lo pratica, mi immagino i risultati!), oppure che il vt
non è uguale, almeno, al WT  :-))


 circolari in giro..."  ;-)
Eggià! ;-)
Ciao, Gyork (WingTsun)

 miglioramenti consistenti all'intero sistema.
Gli attacchi circolari sono i più facili da contrastare. (Entri sul buco che
l'avversario stesso si crea sulla sua centrale)
Per me l'articolista si è espresso male (o non ha approfondito molto la
questione)
Ciao, Gyork (WingTsun)

 Se invece voleva dire altro...che cantonata! ;-)
Secondo me invece è semplicemente una osservazione sul 
campo. In un allenamento no-contact (e forse anche 
contact) il trovarsi di colpo con la linea centrale 
libera (cioè senza alcun riferimento) e un gancio che 
arriva di lato può effettivamente sfasare il praticante. 
(vuol dire che si era focalizzato sulle mani 
dell'avversario e non sull'avversario).
In pratica: sbagliato, vero, in contrasto con i principi 
dello stile, ma può capitare. Dite di no?...
Ciao
Tac
(aikido)

 dello stile, ma può capitare. Dite di no?...
Certo,tutto può capitare ;o))
P.s. Ma........
Robin
"Kuen Yao Sum Faat!"

 dello stile, ma può capitare. Dite di no?...
Certo, capita eccome, basta vedere quelli che si esercitano per il 4° grado
per vedere come all'inizio tutti cercano la parata.
(Tutta colpa dei film dove si vedeva il "dai la cera/togli la cera"....
;oP )
Ma poi impari ^__^
(P.S. All'esame del 4° ti fanno fare praticamente solo esercizio contro
ganci...)
Ciao, Gyork (WingTsun)
-------------------------
www.EWTOSanMarino.com

 fare delle serpentine se la strada č libera?
HAHAHA!!! Ma hai mai sciato? :-))))
Prova ad andare giů dritto, ma fammelo sapere, che ti vengo a prendere 
con la paletta sulla linea di arrivo!!! ^_____^
ciao,
Jashugan
(WingTsun)
-- 
«Ha tinto le mie vesti d'un rosso a tutti sconosciuto. Ora non vi č
piů nessuno che le sfiori. Uccide gli uomini in viaggio e, guardando
il cielo, una donna piange».
(Hiroaki Samura)


grazie per la dritta! Forse faccio l'esame domenica...
Pregate per me o vi rimarrà solo la pelle di lince!
saluti Lince

 con la paletta sulla linea di arrivo!!! ^_____^
Uè!Guarda che ti mando l'allegato con la scansione del  "patentino" :6°
livello "supertecnica italiana" (= preagonistica, mica noccioline
;-PPPPrrr  ) , conseguito allo Stelvio nel lontano '91.
Poi ho lasciato tutto per lo snowboard, ma questa è un'altra storia... :-)
(Comunque se porti la paletta lo stesso mi fai un piacere, caccio certe
botte!!!  :-| )
Ciao, Gyork (WingTsun & SBFreestyle)
----------------------
www.EWTOSanMarino.com

Oppure che il vt è diverso, almeno, dal WT.   :-))
Oppure si
può pensare ad un banalissimo errore.
Leggete la frase in questo modo
(aggiungendo un semplice "non" al punto giusto) e tutto, forse si
chiarisce!
"The ving tsun practitioner is trained to control the
centerline and negate his opponent's linear attacks by presenting them with
a barrier, such as the hands. Circular attacks cause the NON ving tsun
stylist some problems, slowing his reaction time and opening his centerline
to counterattack."
Che ne pensate?
Myo-ho (CRCA)
--------------------------------
Inviato via 
http://usenet.iol.it
 

Che ne pensate?
Tutto il male possibile, ovviamente.
