Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.giapponese
Titolo: Amore e sesso

In Italia l'amore comincia quasi sempre dalla carne, in Giappone quasi mai.
In Giappone è una cosa piuttosto razionale e non ci si tira indietro anche
se la ragazza è brutta. In Italia è difficile prescindere dal piano fisico:
per quanto il concetto di bellezza è relativo, nessuno dal suo punto di
vista sposerà una brutta.
In Giappone difficilmente si rompe un rapporto per difficoltà sul piano
sessuale. In Italia capita sempre di più.
Sesso e amore sono completamente separabili.
Anche il concetto di omiai è perfettamente giustificabile in questa ottica
ed ancora praticato.
Mi rendo conto che sono affermazioni un po' campate in aria, ma io ne sono
pienamente convinto. Voi cosa ne pensate?
Massimiliano Crippa
max.c...@iol.it

 vista sposerà una brutta.
Può darsi che mi sbagli ma ho sentito che in Giappone è sentito quasi come un
dovere mettersi insieme ad una persona che è innamorata di te. Può sembrare
assurdo, e forse non è proprio sempre così, ma conoscendo i giapponesi non mi
pare poi così strano.
Ludo

 pare poi cosě strano.
Ciň conferma che il valore "bellezza" ha meno importanza...
Massimiliano Crippa
max.c...@iol.it


scusa la domanda, ma tu che hai a che fare con i jap, hai qualche
riferimento?

 riferimento?
Che riferimento dovrei avere? E' il riscontro che ho avuto finora. Non ho
mica detto che è così in assoluto, potrei sbagliarmi.
Massimiliano Crippa
max.c...@iol.it

pienamente convinto. Voi cosa ne pensate?
Sinceramente mi sembra un po' strano...forse le affermazioni sono
volutamente esagerate per scatenare una buona discussione? ;-)
Il mio parere e' che un fondo di verita' nelle tue affermazioni c'e',
ma sarebbe sbagliato generalizzare troppo :-)
--
GeNmA

 Cos'e' l'omiai? :-)
Recentemente una mia amica giapponese mi ha detto:
"La settimana scorsa, ho fatto "miai"... ."Miai", cioe` l'incontro
organizzato combinare un matrimonio, e` tradizione nazionale ma e` dimituito
oggi."
La mia amica dice "miai", ma credo che sia la stessa cosa di "omiai".
Ciao
Gianfranco


fammi capire........
dammi il tuo riscontro, qualcosa che si possa verificare, non campato in
aria, cioe' un riferimento, ora che vado la' e vedo se e' vero.
comunque gli indirizzi di roppongi e shingioku' non me li hai dati, te ne
daro' (appena lo trovo) quello di Ueno  :-)))

 ma sarebbe sbagliato generalizzare troppo :-)
Sì, però voi non dovete rispondere in modo più generale di me! ^_^
Se volete rendere il discorso meno campato in aria, dovete contribuire...
Massimiliano Crippa
max.c...@iol.it

> La mia amica dice "miai", ma credo che sia la stessa cosa di "omiai".
O è una particella onorifica, a volte si può omettere.
Massimiliano Crippa
max.c...@iol.it

 daro' (appena lo trovo) quello di Ueno  :-)))
La ricerca non sarà lunga, di locali come quelli che cerchi ce ne saranno
uno ogni due metri in quelle zone...
Massimiliano Crippa
max.c...@iol.it

Se volete rendere il discorso meno campato in aria, dovete contribuire...
Eh, mi piacerebbe tanto, ma dovrei avere piu' esperienze personali con
i giapponesi! ^_^;
--
GeNmA

 i giapponesi! ^_^;
he..he..he, skebe :-)))
saluti
gio
Sent via Deja.com 
http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

 Se volete rendere il discorso meno campato in aria, dovete contribuire...
cioe', che vuol dire?
per rendere un discorso meno campato in aria, ci vogliono delle esperienze
dirette, (roba da psicanalista), per cui chi ne ha?
 io no!
cmq, se conosci l'opera lirica Madame Butterfly, sai come inizia, e come
finisce una storia.

 finisce una storia.
La lirica è un campo a me sconosciuto...
Massimiliano Crippa
max.c...@iol.it

 Una tendenza maggiore all'adulterio, allora?
Storicamente, è un dato di fatto. Esisteva un riconoscimento ufficiale a
questa pratica.
Massimiliano Crippa
max.c...@iol.it


Questo mi incuriosisce molto. Forse non sono solo io ad essere ignorante a
tale riguardo. Ti sarei molto grato se ci raccontassi qualcosa in proposito,
voglio dire del riconoscimento ufficiale dell'adulterio in Giappone e di una
possibile tendenza maggiore all'adulterio. Io finora ho solo alcuni indizi
derivanti dalla mia esperienza di rapporto con giapponesi di sesso
femminile, ed i miei rapporti, ahime', sono tutti verbali via web.
Ciao (ti ringrazio per i tuoi continui contributi al newsgroup)
Gianfranco

 possibile tendenza maggiore all'adulterio.
Ad esempio, leggete questo testo, č un po' difficile, ma...
Massimiliano Crippa
max.c...@iol.it
Kagero no Koi no Yo:
Love and Marriage in the Heian Court
by W. Michael Rollins
The Heian Court: a shimmering world of princes and princesses, courtesans
and
courtiers, noble men and women that together comprised the yoki hito, or
"Good
People." For an age known primarily for its embrace of the arts and other
aesthetic pursuits, one might suppose that the predominance of poetry,
painting, and song in court life might have filled the air with romance.
Tearful proclamations of regret at leave-taking after a night spent in a
lover's arms, and the hastily-composed poems that were sure to follow them
paint an image of gallant courtship of ladies by gentlemen, and amour
between
the sexes not unlike that of Medieval Europe. Under somewhat closer
scrutiny,
however, does the romantic motif remain intact? Like sukima in the wall of a
Heian lady's quarters, the extant literary works of the time provide us with
a
sliver of insight beyond those silken walls, and into the hearts of the Good
People.
What, then, were love and marriage to the people that populated the Heian
court and the literature of the period? It would seem that the carefully
crafted veneer of pomp and ceremony, then so ubiquitous, extended beyond the
ritual pursuits of the court and into the bed chambers of the Heian cast of
characters.
Men and women of Heian were not generally free to intermingle, and the
occasions in which they did share the same space, court ceremonies and other
ritual gatherings, for example, afforded them the opportunity to assess one
another in various ways. In terms of visual appeal, both sexes are known to
have garbed themselves in elaborate flowing robes of a hue appropriate to
the
season, and were well-coifed above the collar as well. As the numerous
layers
of clothing effectively served to conceal the female form, it could be
argued
that physical traits, cascading black hair and well-painted face
notwithstanding, were not that which initially prompted a man of the court
to
open a dialog with a woman. Instead, it was probably a sharp wit and
facility
with poetry, regularly subject to public exhibition and evaluation, that
would
spark the interest of a male.
In quite the same fashion, women were attentive to a man's ability to
demonstrate a knowledge of classic poetry and to construct poems of merit,
as
well as to the raiment in which they attired themselves. Omitting physique,
then, one might assume that intelligence was elevated as the standard by
which
suitors and the objects of their affection were measured, initially at
least.
However, does talent in the field of classical poetry, for example, denote
superior intellect, or merely superior education? Far from meritorious,
Heian
aristocratic society conferred power and prestige based as much on
genealogical factors as those of intrinsic skill, and an examination of the
benchmarks employed by women when considering a mate might indicate an
emphasis on high birth. By the same token, men were required to restrict
their
formal (i.e.- publicly recognized) relationships to those with women of
sufficient class. This concern with status reflects other practices of the
time which involved considerable behind-the-scenes maneuvering by elevated
persons in the court designed to preserve position and power.
In courtship, it was generally incumbent on the male to initiate
communication, and he would usually do so in the form of a poem sent via
messenger to the women of his fancy. In it he would attempt to compose lines
of elegant verse that would generate interest in him on her part, and
thereby
yield a response in similar form. Much as the woman had done with his, he
would then evaluate her response both in terms of content and handwriting.
This exchange could be all that was necessary to clear the way for a
late-night visit, or yobai, by the suitor. Although the yobai (lit.
"night-creeping) was thought of as a "secret" meeting, the members of the
woman's household were less than oblivious to the nocturnal rendezvous. What
exactly transpired in these situations is never clearly defined in the
available literature of the period, but it is generally understood that
intercourse was involved.
Here some clarification is called for, I think, because the casual reader of
Sei Shonagon's Pillow Book might, for example, conclude that Heian women
served as little more that ladies-in-waiting of another sort entirely, which
is to say that the night found them at the sexual whim of whoever may choose
to dally there on his yobai excursions. Despite the widespread promiscuity
of
the time, though, this was not the case at all. The nighttime meetings
conformed to a standard ritual that was very much a part of courtship, and
which often resulted in the legal union (i.e.- marriage) of the parties
involved.
But what of love? Are we to understand that a poem overheard, a
surreptitious
glance at a woman's face through a partially open door, or a brief liaison
under cover of darkness could move one to feelings of love and yearning? Was
"love" as we think of it today even part of the formula that produced a
marriage? Perhaps not. For example, in her Pillow Book, Sei Shonagon seems
to
place much more importance on matters of grace and form than on the
sincerity
or depth of a lover's emotions. The following excerpt from note 27, Hateful
Things, illustrates this clearly:
Indeed, one's attachment to a man depends largely on the elegance of his
leave-taking. When he jumps out of bed, scurries about the room, tightly
fastens his trouser sash, rolls up the sleeves of his Court cloak,
over-robe,
or hunting costume, stuffs his belongings into the breast of his robe and
then
briskly secures the outer sash--one really begins to hate him.
There are numerous such examples in the work that indicate the importance of
form over substance. Even in matters of spirituality, the author in one case
ties the attractiveness of a priest's features to his ability to convey his
message to an audience whose attention would presumably wander were he less
than comely. Consider, then, that if etiquette, grace and status are what
brought couples together, what characterized their union subsequent to
wedlock?
Matrimony in Heian-kyo fell into two broad categories. The first was the
initial marriage, typically an arranged affair designed to benefit one or
both
of the parties involved by aligning them with a person of status via his or
her familial ties. Based on the fact that neither party was involved in the
selection process, and since the bride and groom were generally in their
early
teens at the time of marriage, one could assume that there was little, if
any,
emotional component present in the union. Although this may sound to the
contemporary reader to be a pitiable fate for a young couple, it merely
reflects traditionally held notions that separated one's familial
responsibilities as spouse and parent from the pursuit of individual needs,
such as love and sexual gratification. These needs were fulfilled outside of
the realm of arranged marriage and involved unions with consorts, or
"secondary" wives, who existed in the second marriage category.
Heian society was quite polygamous; it was not unusual for a man of import
to
have numerous secondary wives in addition to the primary one, and the
greater
the number of wives a man had only added to his status. In fact, more than
simply window dressing for the status-conscious male, secondary wives were
implicitly required for a man of consequence, whose duty it was to sire as
many children as possible. In Pink Samurai, Nicholass Bornoff writes, "With
a
painfully short average life span and a high infant mortality rate,
producing
a large number of offspring was a practical imperative assuring continuation
of the line" (p. 122).
The primary wife, or kita no kata, enjoyed a status greater than that of
subsequent wives, and was entrusted with, among other things, the rearing
and
education of her daughters so that they would one day be able to marry into
good families. Elevated as she was, however, all was not sake and
chysanthemums, for she was often required to vie with his secondary wives
for
the affection and attention of her husband.
Secondary wives as well could have had cause for considerable nuptial grief.
Although they would often continue to reside in their parents' home even
after
the wedding ceremony, they could also be installed in the residence of the
husband, and therefore under the proverbial thumb of the kita no kata, who
there reigned supreme. In Ochikubo Monogatari, for example, a cruel kita no
kata terrorizes the helpless daughter of her husbands former wife. Ivan
Morris
writes in The World of the Shinig Prince that, although the move to the
house
of her husband would clearly legitimize the relationship, it also "had the
disadvantage of exposing [the secondary wife] directly to the hostility and
competition of the man's principal wife and of other secondary consorts,
past
and future" (p. 233).
Moreover, the more wives a man had, the less time he had to devote to each
one. This must have been a dismal fate indeed for those women who, because
of
their status as wives to powerful figures, were unable both to pursue
relationships with other men or spend more than a modest amount of time with
their spouses. By contemporary standards this would be intolerable, but what
about in Heian-kyo? Based on the literature available we find a spectrum of
perceptions ranging from acceptance (Murasaki Shikibu) to bitterness (Mother
of Michitsuna, the disgruntled wife of Fujiwara no Kaneie). Ultimately, the
matter of the necessity of this arrangement was probably understood by all
of
the parties involved, though this understanding may not have served as
solace
for many a Heian woman, relegated as she was to merely conjugal visits on
those evenings when her spouse came calling.
Not to paint too ghastly a picture of Heian romance, I should note that the
period is not without its share of love stories and other works, fictive and
otherwise, that reveal great emotional depth in the relations of the people
represented therein. Even Genji himself, a Lothario by any standard, is
nonetheless a creature of deep feeling who is seen to possess ardor of the
most sincere sort. But are these declarations of love, the carefully
composed
poems and endearments whispered as one "lies buried under the bedclothes"
(Shonagon, p. 64) truly expressions of affection, or simply part of the role
of "lover," contrived and scripted like so much else in the Heian court?
In Heian times as in all others, humans were nonetheless human, and to
discount the candor of their emotions would be to call into question our
own.
It is clear, though, that ritual and ceremony permeated most, if not all,
facets of Heian society, including the relations between men and women. To
the
cynical eye, all might seem to have been an exercize in fraud, wind-up dolls
pretending at being in love with sugared words and empty endearments. To
this
reader, however, there is a beauty that exists in the way their emotions,
surely ablaze beneath a perfunctory mien, were regulated and frugally
discharged as laconic lines of verse, or tears that fell on long, silk
sleeves.
Note on the Title
The word kageró is rendered in kana in order to allow it to serve
double-duty as a kind of kakekotoba. In one case it serves as a minor
allusion to a significant work of Heian literature, the Kageró Nikki, or
Gossamer Diary. Although the word kageró in this case has been translated by
Helen McCullough as "heat haze," the Japanese use a different kanji compound
for the work's title. The actual meaning of kageró, according to the
Kokugodaijiten, is "ephemeral" or "mayfly." The mayfly, of course, known for
living for but a day before mating and then dying. This reading seems to me
to make much more sense in the context of the final sentence of the Gossamer
Diary, from which the titled is derived.
In addition to this meaning, I have used the other kageró ,the "heat
shimmer" compound, to act as a metaphor for the uncertainty in discerning
the authenticity of Heian love, occluded by time much a distant scene might
be by heat haze, and addressed briefly in the paper.
The words koi no yo refer to historical promiscuity of the Heian period,
also alluded to in the paper.

 i giapponesi! ^_^;
vieni con me! :-))

he..he..he, skebe :-)))
Ehi, traduci! ^__-
--
GeNmA

 Ehi, traduci! ^__-
Sukebe in senso buono, sta a mandrillo, marpione :-))
slt


 Ehi, traduci! ^__-
porco?

vieni con me! :-))
Eh, purtroppo sono un misero studente! ^_^;
--
GeNmA

questa pratica.
Tra l'altro le stesse mogli erano fiere del consorte, no? :-)
--
GeNmA

slt
slt nch t! ^__-
--
GeNmA

di un millennio fa.
Un attimo! Li' si parla di denti laccati di nero, cioe' tinti 
appositamente (de gustibus...), non cariati! 
-- 
----------------
     C E Z 
----------------
gval...@usa.net


ritorno nel merito:
io non ho parlato di elogio, ma di cosa viene considerato bello!
visto di persona: denti neri e storti (tinti...., cariati......, non ho
guardato in bocca al "cavallo/a" cosi' da vicino, a me non piaceva!); piedi
piccolissimi; gambe storte etc...
chi parla di un millennio fa' per me si trova in errore!
e poi ancora una vota ti chiedo: dimmi che esperienze hai avuto con i tuoi
"colleghi" giapponesi, anche in pvt.vedro' di fare le stesse cose. :-)

 non credi che sia il nostro opposto?
Ti invito formalmente a "rivedere" le tue fonti di informazioni, in
quanto TOTALMENTE SBALLATE!
saluti
Giorgio


 
gval...@usa.net
Bravo, ti vedo preparato in materia. Non venivano laccati, ma
inchiostrati con l'inchiosto nero. Questa pratica era molto in voga fino
alla fine del 1800. Ma ancora nelle prime decadi del 1900 era in uso.
Famoso è stato un documentario televisivo giapponese di qualche anno fà,
(che ho pure visto) e successivi studi dove una donna molto anziana
che si pitturava i denti aveva una dentatura perfetta malgrado la sua
età.
Saluti


 cose. :-)
Perchè non ci racconti le - tue - esperienze? :-))
slt


 > appositamente (de gustibus...), non cariati!
C'è sempre da imparare...
Massimiliano Crippa
max.c...@iol.it

 C'è sempre da imparare...
Mi ricordo di aver registrato quella trasmissione, alla prima
opportunità, andrò a cercarla tra le centinaia di videocassette e ti
farò sapere.  Il problema è ricordami su quale sistema e formato, VHS,
Betamax, 8mm, ecludo il DV.
Per gli amanti del genere: ho registrato le ultime 6 ore di trasmissioni
NHK del secolo - con la versione integrale del programma musicale di
fine anno KOHAKU e le prime 6 ore di inizio secolo - con relativi,
civite ai templi, discorso politico, telegiornali - notiziari ecc.
saluti
gio
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