Newsgroup: it.sport.nuoto
Titolo: WO-ATx800 3.2

Mercoledě C1, 1 km tondo tondo, appuntamento ormai fisso.
500 risc
5x100 mx a 2'10''
6x50 a 50''
12x50 uno a stecca uno bolle a 1'15''
4x100 a 3'30'' (1'15'' - 1'15'' - 1'16'' - 1'17'')
100 bolle
2x(6x25 a stecca a 30'') p 2'
200 bolle
600 tecnica sl
6x50 gb pinne
200 bolle
4000 m
Sto curando la frequenza di bracciata, accelerandola e cercando di
mantenerla nel tempo, con discreti risultati, i due 1'15'' sui 100 mi hanno
esaltato. Gli ultimi 25 m avevo sensazioni diverse dal solito, meno crisi di
fiato, piů bruciore alle braccia, ma riuscivo a tenere fino in fondo mentre
le altre volte il crollo era molto piů evidente.
Andrea Tibaldi
www.cibo360.it

 le altre volte il crollo era molto più evidente.
Che unito a questa osservazione, mi fa pensare che sei partito troppo piano
-- 
Happiness happens

 Mi sembrano un po' troppo costanti come tempi
Quindi dici che se non peggiori vistosamente nell'arco di una serie C1, non 
la stai eseguendo come si deve?
Kalě. 

Kalě wrote:

se non produci acido lattico a dovere, come fai a imparare a tollerarlo ?
-- 
SF
"Yo! Quota! Do that quoting thing, baby [...]

Risposta al messaggio di Kalì, 08/11/2006 16.54:


Il vistosamente è difficile da valutare.
Mi sembra che però un calo di solo 2.5% sia troppo poco.
Poi magari è lo stesso calo che ha Magnini, ma il livello di allenamento 
è piuttosto diverso.
Io son troppo dall'altra parte, ok, però ho cali maggiori del 10%
-- 
Happiness happens

 > 4x100 a 3'30'' (1'15'' - 1'15'' - 1'16'' - 1'17'')
Se un 100 lo fate in 1'15, un 50 in quanto lo fate?!

 le altre volte il crollo era molto più evidente.
comunque bravo
:-)
--
f.


in allenamento o in gara?
io domenica sono iscritto con 30"5
iRick con 24"9
in allenamento i tempi dipendono dal tipo di lavoro
in un C1 non ci si dovrebbe però discostare troppo dal tempo di gara, almeno
nelle prime ripetute

 f.

 Happiness happens

 per respirare, ritorno do, pausa 10''.
troppo impegnativo a fine allenamento.per me soprattutto :-)
ciao
;-)
--
f.

 Se e quando farò 1'10'', allora vedrai che il calo di prestazione aumenterà.
Non credo proprio, perchè calando i tempi di gara, calano anche tutti 
gli altri parametri e tutte le andature tendono a avvicinarsi.
Anzi, in genere i miglioramenti, con l'aumentare del tuo grado di 
allenamento, sono molto maggiori per le andature + lente che per quelle 
veloci (da qui il "compattamento" delle varie velocità)
-- 
Happiness happens

 ha scritto nel messaggio
Ok, mi ci tiri per i (pochi ... si sa, piscine dimmm ...) capelli.
Non avevo nulla da eccepire sui C1 di Andrea e tu mi distruggi le poche 
certezze che ho coi tuoi post. Allora riguardo il Magli che mi sembra sia 
molto piů possibilista di te. Se hai tempo e voglia leggi quanto segue e mi 
dici che pensi?
Grazie.
Kalě.
Estratto da Cap.14 "Sprint, Race-Pace and Recovery Training
---------------------------------
Guidelines for Constructing Lactate Tolerance Repeat Sets
The goal of lactate tolerance training is to produce severe acidosis in the 
working muscle fibers so that those fibers will store more buffers and 
become more effective at buffering lactic acid. At the same time, swimmers 
should also concentrate on maintaining a high level of effort and efficient 
stroke mechanics in spite of acidosis. This training, which may be more 
mental than physical, will help them in at least two ways. First, they may 
become less sensitive to the pain of acidosis, and second, they can 
condition themselves not to commit some of the common technique errors that 
accompany severe acidosis, such as allowing their arms to slip through the 
water, losing their stroke timing, sacrificing too much distance per stroke, 
or sacrificing turnover rate to maintain distance per stroke. Factors such 
as repeat distances and rest intervals are not critical in the design of 
lactate tolerance repeat sets. Any group of repeats that produces acidosis 
can produce the training effect.
Consequently, the intensity and number of repeats are the most important 
ingredients for sets of this type. Athletes can use three general methods to 
stimulate severe acidosis in training. The first is to swim repeats of 100 
yd or m and longer at very fast speeds with long rest periods after each 
repeat. I have termed this type of repeat set long sprints with long rest, 
for obvious reasons. The second is to swim repeats of 25 yd or m and longer 
with medium rest intervals that do not permit recovery from acidosis after 
each swim.
The term for this type of set is sprints with medium rest. The third method 
involves broken swims, that is, swimming small series of repeats with very 
short rest intervals.
I call this method sprints on short rest. The graphs in figure 14.2 
illustrate the  probable effects of each type of repeat on muscle pH. The 
next several paragraphs will describe those effects.
Long Sprints With Long Rest
Swimming long sprints on long rest intervals improves buffering because each 
repeat produces severe acidosis. Swimmers should rest for at least 5 to 10 
min to provide time to remove a significant amount of the lactic acid from 
their muscles and restore muscle pH somewhat before attempting another swim 
(Krukau, Volker, and Liesen 1987; Troup, Metzger, and Fitts 1985). 
Otherwise, they will not be able to swim fast enough on subsequent repeats 
to stimulate further acidosis.
Swimming lactate tolerance repeats in this manner has several advantages. 
The set will produce severe acidosis several times, thus providing multiple 
periods of stimulation for increasing buffering capacity. Because the speed 
of the repeats will be near race speed, athletes will also be able to 
concentrate on using racelike breathing patterns, executing good turns, 
maintaining stroke integrity, and fighting off the effects of painful 
acidosis.
The best distances for these repeats are 100 and 200 yd or m because they 
are the minimum distances that will produce the desired training effect. 
These distances are long enough to cause severe acidosis yet short enough 
that athletes can swim several repeats during a particular training session.
The optimum length of repeat sets of this type is somewhere between 300 and 
800 yd or m. The work of Gollnick and associates (1973) supports this 
recommendation. They showed that fast-twitch muscle fibers become depleted 
of their glycogen after four to six all-out rides on a bicycle ergometer.
Swimming speeds should be faster than threshold speeds so that lactic acid 
accumulates in the muscles. I am tempted to say that athletes should swim 
these repeats as fast as possible, but no scientific evidence supports that 
advice. Swimming these repeats as fast as possible may indeed improve the 
training effect. On the other hand, simply lowering muscle pH a substantial 
amount with fast but not maximum swimming speeds may provide a stimulus for 
improving muscle buffering capacity that is just as effective as swimming at 
faster speeds.
A good rule of thumb is that repeat speeds should be at least 85% of best 
times for 100 and 200 races or within 6 sec of an athlete's best 100 time 
and within 12 sec of the swimmer's best 200 time. Distance swimmers should 
be able to swim these repeats closer to their best times than sprinters can 
because swimmers in the former category generally have greater aerobic 
capacity and endurance and therefore do not produce as much lactic acid 
during their repeat swims.
Sprints With Medium Rest Intervals
In the second method, in which athletes swim a series of repeats with a 
moderate rest interval, the rest interval should be long enough to allow 
them to swim faster than threshold speeds but not so long that it permits 
more than a modest recovery from acidosis between repeats.
The major advantage of this set over the previous one is that it allows 
athletes to swim more repeats in a designated period of time or the same 
number of repeats in less time. Sprints with medium rest intervals provide 
the same opportunities to stimulate increases in muscle buffers and to 
practice race techniques under conditions of severe acidosis. Any repeat 
distance can be used for medium-rest sprints, but I suggest repeat distances 
that are half the race distance or less because repeat speeds will be closer 
to race pace.
Generally, sprinters will swim repeat distance of 25,50, 75, and 100 yd or m 
for these sets. The optimum length of these sets is any where from 600 to 
1,200 yd or m. Sprinters who specialize in short events should generally 
keep the length of their sets at 800 yd or m or less, whereas those who 
compete in 200 events can move up to the longer set distance on occasion.
Send-off times should allow approximately 15 sec of rest for 25 repeats, 15 
to 30 sec of rest for 50 repeats, 30 to 40 sec of rest for 75 repeats, and 
45 to 60 sec of rest for 100 repeats. Training speeds should be faster than 
threshold speeds to ensure that athletes are accumulating lactic acid in 
their muscles.
Sprints With Short Rest Intervals
Acidosis is produced by keeping the recovery time very short in the third 
method of lactate tolerance training, sprinting with short rest intervals. 
Swimmers do this type of set as broken swims, in which they complete the set 
distance as a series of underdistance swims with very short rest periods. 
The improvement in buffering capacity results from the stacking effect of 
lactic acid in the muscles, which leads to severe acidosis after several 
repeats.
Broken swims and other sprints completed on short rest intervals are 
motivating and require only a short amount of practice time to accomplish 
the purpose of improving buffering capacity.
They provide the same opportunities to practice fighting off the stress of 
acidosis while maintaining good racing techniques.
Any repeat distance that produces acidosis can be used for this purpose, but 
repeats that are one-fourth of the athlete s race distance or less encourage 
training near race speeds.
These sets can be extremely motivating. The length of each set can be any 
distance that produces acidosis. Sets that are race distance, slightly 
shorter than race distance, or slightly longer than race distance are 
optimum. Sets slightly shorter than race distance encourage faster speeds.
Sets slightly longer than race distance condition athletes to maintain good 
technique longer than the length of the race. Athletes can complete two to 
four such sets in one training session provided they have time to restore 
muscle pH to near normal between each set. Rest periods should be quite 
short, 5 to 15 sec, so that little recovery occurs between repeats. The 
speed of the repeats should approximate race speed at the maximum and should 
certainly be faster than threshold speeds at the minimum.
Table 14.1   Examples of Lactate Tolerance Repeat Sets
Long sprints with long rest periods
6 x 100 on 7 min 3 x 200 on 10 min
Sprints with medium rest intervals
12 x 25 on 30 sec 12 x 50 on 1 min
8 x 100 on 2 min 6 x 200 on 3 or 4 min
Sprints with short rest intervals
3 sets of 4 x 25 on 20 to 30 sec
3 sets of 4 x 50 with a rest interval of 10 to 15 sec
15 x 100 on 1:30

 f.

 15 x 100 on 1:30
ma comunque vedi che la pausa per andare a tollerare e' "bassa" da 
agonista vero hehe
(qui esageratamente)
:-)
esempio secondo me:
12x50 dall'acqua 1'10
1   28     mi gonfio
2   29     mi rigonfio
3   30     mi stragonfio
4   31,5   esplodo
5   32     mi voglio fermare
6   32,3   sono fermo
7   31,8   tollero
8   31,7   tollero di brutto
9   32,3   aho so' stanco anche se tollero
10  32,8   oramai e' finita
11  33,1   con i gomiti
12  33,2   con le orecchie
ciao
--
f.

 io li metterei ad inizio allenamento.
Quoto
-- 
Happiness happens

 massimale.
Io preferisco farli senza recupero attivo, ma anche così si dovrebbe 
poter fare.
E comunque, è normale che quando parti tu non sia riposato, infatti c'è 
comunque un leggero calo di prestazioni.
Potresti incominciare con meno di 12, per esempio 8 (uno veloce, uno 
sciolto)
-- 
Happiness happens

Ciao Andrea,
nell'altro thread "WO-ATx800 2.3" ti rispondevo sull'allenamento abbinato 
nuoto-corsa e ne e' nato un interessante dibattito con altri, prova a darci 
un'occhiata...
Max

 se fai uno forte uno piano non tolleri ma recuperi tanto .
E ti sposti + verso il picco secondo me
-- 
Happiness happens

 Max