Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.italiano
Titolo: the boxer

Quando Paul Simon canta (ah, le vecchie canzoni)
 
In the clearing stands a boxer
And a fighter by his trade
And he carries the reminders
Of ev'ry glove that layed him down
Or cut him till he cried out
In his anger and his shame
"I am leaving, I am leaving"
But the fighter still remains ...
 
che significato ha "clearing"? Radura, spiazzo? Mi sembra criptico. 
Potrebbe voer dire "in solitudine"? La storia è quella di un ragazzo che 
lacia la famiglia per cercare lavoro a New York ma trova solo delusioni. 
Questa è la strofa conclusiva, potrebbe essere qualcosa come "in 
conclusione"?
 
 
-- 
Haúte dé estin he krísis, hóti tò fôs elélythen eis tòn kósmon
kaì egápesan hoi ánthropoi mâllon tò skótos è tò fôs, ên gàr
autôn ponerà tà érga (Gv 3,19)
Hoc est autem iudicium: Lux venit in mundum, et dilexerunt
homines magis tenebras quam lucem; erant enim eorum mala opera.
 

 come "in conclusione"?
 
«Nella radura si erge un pugile, e un combattente di
mestiere; porta con sé i segni di ogni guantone che lo ha steso, o lo
ha ferito fino a farlo piangere di rabbia e di vergogna. "Vado via,
vado via": Ma il combattente rimane sempre»
Al posto della radura puoi mettere quello che ti pare, il senso è
quello..
 
cit. indovina di chi  :-)

 quello..
 
Può darsi, ma è peccato chiedere una traduzione più accurata?


 Può darsi, ma è peccato chiedere una traduzione più accurata?
 
faceva parte della citazione, eh
http://groups.google.com/group/it.cultura.linguistica.inglese/msg/590b35c6d5acc99c?hl=it
 

 
http://groups.google.com/group/it.cultura.linguistica.inglese/msg/590b35c6d5acc99c?hl=it
 
 
Da allora mi è rimasto il dubbio, infatti. Uun lupo di Dubbio. Un dubbio 
atletico.


 
 
Excuse my AmE response.
It means an open area between trees or other growth. I think, as has been 
suggested, that "radura" best translates it. In my Garzanti online I see 
"terreno diboscato" along with "radura."
 
One wouldn't expect to find many "radure" in New York City, other than in 
Central Park, so I believe the word was chosen for its meter and maybe its 
alternate meaning: the weather is said to be "clearing" when storm clouds are 
dissipating.
 
Oh, and the past tense of "lay" is "laid." Same as "pay/paid."
 
-- 
Joey from New York
Among those whom I like or admire, I can find no common denominator,
but among those whom I love, I can: all of them make me laugh.
   -- WH Auden
 

 Oh, and the past tense of "lay" is "laid." Same as "pay/paid."
 
I made a copy and paste, I'm not guilty :-)


 explanation?
 
I was referring specifically to the weather, but yes, the term can apply to 
other situations as well, so that it could be translated with "quando tutto 
si chiarisce."
 
In the song, it refers to that physical open space between "something" if not 
trees.


 trees.
 
Thank you.


 conclusione"?
 
  Che cosa ci fa un pugile in una radura?
 
  Ho visto che le traduzioni in rete sono per lo più "spiazzo", 
"radura", secondo me senza senso, e dato che clearing ha diversi 
significati, mi sembrerebbe più congruo "sotto le luci o i riflettori" 
(del ring), espressione che si usa anche in italiano.
Il pugile sul ring è al centro di una fortissima luce (clearing) e per 
lui intorno è buio totale.
 
Sarà così? Bisognerebbe trovare una versione di qualche traduttore 
competente.
 
k

 competente.
 
Uno che abbia fatto il pugile? :-)


 Uno che abbia fatto il pugile? :-)
 
Im Hellen steht ein Boxer und ein Kämpfer von Beruf
Und er trägt die Andenken jedes Handschuhes, der ihn niedergestreckt
oder geschnitten hat
Bis er in seinem Zorn und seiner Schmach herausschrie
Ich gebe auf, ich gebe auf, aber der Kämpfer bleibt noch da
Ja, er bleibt noch da

 Im Hellen steht ein Boxer und ein Kämpfer von Beruf
 
Sì, certo.
 
In the clearing stands a boxer
Debout dans la clairière il y a un boxeur
And a fighter by his trade
Un combattant de métier
And he carries the reminders
Et il porte avec lui les vestiges
Of every glove that laid him down
De tous les gants( de boxe) qui l'ont envoyé à terre
And cut him till he cried out
Et ont coupé sa chair jusqu'à ce qu'il crie
In his anger and his shame
Sous le coup de la colère et de la honte
I am leaving, I am leaving
J'abandonne, j'abandonne
But the fighter still remains.
Mais le combattant est toujours là
 
http://www.lacoccinelle.net/244762.html
 



 
Questa è una canzone che ho sempre amato e di cui possiedo ancora 
l'ellepi in vinile.
 
Quel "clearing" io ho sempre pensato, come ben dice Klaram, che siano le 
luci del ring.
 
-- 
lu.
Ultima Badessa di passaggio
 
"Tu che per me in segreto avevi sparse
tante lacrime..."
 
Gabriele d'Annunzio

 competente.
 
Nel caso di questa canzone, il pugile è una metafora. La sua vita è a 
paragone della vita del personaggio della canzone (I am just a poor boy).
 
Ecco un citazione da wikipedia. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boxer
 
 
Lyrics
 
The song's lyrics take the form of a first-person lament, as the singer 
describes his struggles to overcome loneliness and poverty in New York 
City. The final verse switches to a third-person sketch of a boxer, who, 
despite the effects of "every glove that laid him down or cut him till 
he cried out", perseveres. At the last we are told the boxer cries out, 
"I am leaving, I am leaving" — "but", the lyrics continue, "the fighter 
still remains."
 
The chorus of the song is wordless, consisting of a repeated chant of 
"lie-la-lie". Simon stated that this was originally intended only as a 
placeholder, but became part of the finished song.
 
     "I didn't have any words! Then people said it was 'lie' but I 
didn't really mean that. That it was a lie. But, it's not a failure of 
songwriting, because people like that and they put enough meaning into 
it, and the rest of the song has enough power and emotion, I guess, to 
make it go, so it's all right. But for me, every time I sing that 
part... [softly], I'm a little embarrassed."
 
It has sometimes been suggested that the words represent a "sustained 
attack on Bob Dylan". Under this interpretation, Dylan is identified by 
his experience as an amateur boxer, and the "lie-la-lie" chorus 
represents allegations of Dylan lying about his musical intentions. 
Biographer Marc Eliot wrote in Paul Simon: A Life, "In hindsight, this 
seems utterly nonsensical."
 
Bob Dylan in turn covered the song on his Self Portrait album, replacing 
the word "glove" with "blow." Paul Simon himself has suggested that the 
lyrics are largely autobiographical, written during a time when he felt 
he was being unfairly criticized:
 
     "I think I was reading the Bible around that time. That's where I 
think phrases such as 'workman's wages' came from, and 'seeking out the 
poorer quarters'. That was biblical. I think the song was about me: 
everybody's beating me up, and I'm telling you now I'm going to go away 
if you don't stop."
 
During a New York City concert in October 2010, Paul Simon stopped 
singing midway through "The Boxer" to tell the story of a woman who 
stopped him on the street to tell him that she edits the song when 
singing it to her young child. Simon told the audience that she removed 
the words "the whores" and altered the song to say, "I get no offers, 
just a come-on from toy stores on Seventh Avenue." Simon laughingly 
commented that he felt that it was "a better line."
 
"Missing" verse
 
"The Boxer" was originally written with a verse that is not present in 
the Bridge Over Troubled Water version:
 
     Now the years are rolling by me
     They are rockin' evenly
     I am older than I once was
     And younger than I'll be and that's not unusual.
     No it isn't strange
     After changes upon changes
     We are more or less the same
     After changes we are more or less the same
 
This "missing" verse was performed by Simon & Garfunkel when they went 
on tour in November 1969 (this version of the song is included on the 
Live 1969 album), and Paul Simon when he performed it solo after the 
group's breakup. Simon & Garfunkel also performed the "missing verse" on 
Saturday Night Live in 1975 and when they reunited for The Concert in 
Central Park in 1981, and on Late Show with David Letterman.

 canzone dice che è subito nella lotta.
 
  Certo, un pugile può anche andare a cercare funghi, o andare su una 
vetta o su una spiaggia, ma sono luoghi scollegati a quanto si sta dicendo.
Il pugile, come hai detto, è la metafora della vita e il ring è la sua 
radura.
 
 >Nessuna parola della
 > canzone dice che è subito nella lotta.
 
Subito forse no, ma non ha lasciato, è ancora dentro lotta sul ring e 
nella vita:
 
I am leaving, I am leaving
But the fighter still remains.
 
k

 la radura.
 
Non vedo perché de-metaforizzare il testo originale. Se l'autore ha 
usato "clearing" invece di "ring", dovremmo rispettare la sua scelta, 
altrimenti diventiamo coautori.
 
Kiuhnm

 schiarimento (se sbaglio correggimi).
 
No, you're absolutely correct: "clearing" in English does not mean only an 
open space where there are no trees or other growth. For that reason I see 
that "radura" isn't the correct word in Italian.
 
In English, with poetic license, it could even mean an open space among the 
crowd at a boxing match, not even necessarily the ring itself: He could be 
out in the arena where the spectators are, but in a space left reverentially 
open because of his recent success - or failure in this case -in the ring.
 
With that being said, there's no reason to believe the Boxer is even still in 
the arena, is there? Where does it say that? He's leaving, after all ("... I 
am leaving, I am leaving, but the fighter still remains...."
 
And note that this time it's "the fighter," not "the Boxer," which leads me 
to believe that in this case the word "fighter" has a metaphorical meaning, 
(anyone can be a fighter; one who struggles constantly against the odds 
without giving up) as does the word "clearing" in the first verse, so he 
could be anywhere in the world as he departs.
 
And my whole point here is that there's way too much thinking, analysis, 
going on over the lyrics of a song. Talk about poetic license! (And you got 
ME doing it!) A good many sony lyrics are absolute rubbish if taken out of 
context, removed from the melody and just spoken outright.
 
I've heard that song a million times, no exaggeration. (1,045,333 times, to 
be exact :) and I've never stumbled over the meaning of "clearing." I never 
thought that it didn't make sense because of its default definition of "an 
open space in the woods devoid of trees or other growth" or some such.
 
It's a *song.* Just listen to it, enjoy it (or not) and move along.
 
Maybe take a cue from these words from the first stanza:
"Still a man hears what he wants to hear 
And disregards the rest" 
 
(Granted, this being one of the classics, it has a lot more inherent 
philosophical significance than some of what gets written and sung.)
 
Now I have to dig out my Simon & Garfunkle vinyl...  :)


 conclusione"?
 
Può vuol dire "in solitudine" o anche "out to pasture" che significa "in 
pensione" (al meno c'è l'immagine se non ci sia il significato). Ma 
secondo me, la scelta della parola "clearing" non è importante nella 
canzone. Simon potrebbe scelto "at the pond's edge" o "on the corner" 
senza cambiare l'impressione della canzone.
 
Una madre e tifoso di Simon gli ha detto che lei cambia le parole "I get 
no offers, just a come-on from the whores on Seventh Avenue" cantare la 
canzone al suo figlio "I get no offers, just a come-on from toy stores 
on Seventh Avenue." Simon ha detto "it's a better line."
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5tEP4Ca-6I
 
 

 on Seventh Avenue." Simon ha detto "it's a better line."
 
Yes, I had read it in a previous post



Right, but that was a citation in English, and without the youtube 
reference. This is the new and improved version.
 

 reference. This is the new and improved version.
 
OK thank you


 open because of his recent success - or failure in this case -in the ring.
 
 
I agree, but in italian there's no word exactly for "clearing", and,
as you say, the song is really nice, so let it be as it is: in English! :-))
 
k

 altrimenti diventiamo coautori.
 
  I poeti quando traducono diventano sempre coautori... gli altri
  traducono letteralmente.
 
  Ma, scherzi a parte, non esiste in italiano una parola corrispondente 
a "clearing", ergo non si tratta di demetaforizzare, ma di trovare 
metafore adeguate alla nostra lingua.
 
E, poiché non sono una traduttrice e men che mai una poetessa, come ho 
detto a Joe, lascio il testo com'č, in lingua originale... e non se ne 
parli piů!  :-))
 
  k
 
 
 


Si puň sempre aggiungere una ndt.
 
Kiuhnm

 conclusione"?
 
Io l'avevo da sempre tradotta "nella luce del mattino", pensando al significato intransitivo di "to clear" che significa "schiarirsi", ma certo ora mi vengono forti dubbi perché a quanto pare sono l'unico ad averla interpretata così...
Però mi piaceva e mi piace l'immagine di questo pugile di periferia che si allena all'alba...
Bah, mi informerò presso amici anglofoni!
Ciao,
Vittorio

 Vittorio
 
Il mio dizionario dice "radura":
 
  clearing 1
  noun
  an open space in a forest, especially one cleared for cultivation.
 
Ciao
Enrico