Newsgroup: it.cultura.linguistica.italiano
Titolo: [x-post] Italian and italians

Concerning a long discussion I had we some friends of soc.culture.croatia I 
ask the help of ICLI's friends about some questions.
1) What is the difference between language and dialect?
2) Can the following languages be considered Italian dialects?
- Sicilian
- Friulano
- Veneto and Veneziano
- Istrioto (pre-venitian dialect spoken is Istria).
- Dalmatico
3) When is the italian identity born?
Thank you.

3) When is the italian identity born?
domanda da migliaia di milioni di dollari...

certain about Friulano- I guess this is furlanski).
Friulano is not a dialect, it's a LANGUAGE, like Sardo and Piemontese.
Tell me more about Dalmatico, please.
Bye bye

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:02:15 GMT, 
nos...@nospam.net
 (Franco Luraghi)
wrote:

Yeah, Friulian. Just like Mandarin, Cantonese etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friulian_language
As for Dalmatian-here you are:
http://www.answers.com/topic/dalmatian-language
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jlawler/ask/dalmatian.html
http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/index.html

 
I don't know about Istrioto and Dalmatico.
Sicilian and Venetian, like Lombard, Piemontese, Ligurian,
Emiliano-romagnolo, Napoletano, etc. *can* be considered Italian dialects.
They can also be considered as self-standing languages (see the
Ethnologue), but, in this case, if you want to be consistent, you could not
consider Sardianian as one language: there would be at less *four*
different sardinian *languages*: Campidanese, Gallurese, Logudorese,
Sassarese!
On the other side, Italian itself could be considered a dialect of Latin.

 Bye bye
Isriot is considered a separate language. It falls into western
Italo-Dalmatian group of languages. Some claim it is a remnant dialect of
the old extinct Dalmatian language and some say it's related to Friulian.
Dalmatian was also a separate language that was spoken in whole Dalmatia
from Fiume down to Ragusa and falls in the same Italo-Dalmatian group. It
had also a couple of dialects as well: Vegliot(spoken around island of
Veglia-Krk) and Ragusan spoken around Ragusa/Dubrovnik. The last speakr of
this language died in middle of 19th century.
It's though that the Dalmatian language is "missing link" between Romanian
as eastern romance language and other western romance languages....although
Dalmatian was very much no different than other western romance language it
definately had some eastern elements. This was probably a language of old
romanized illyrians who from time to time abandoned this language and
accepted slavic(Croatian).

Emiliano-romagnolo, Napoletano, etc. *can* be considered Italian dialects.
No, it's not like this. Piemontese is a "Language", not a dialect,
like Friulano and Sardo. 

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
I've read that a dialect is a language in which you can't talk about
everything. Furthermore, one has to consider that "dialect" means two
different things in English: a variety of the same language, or a quite
different language, such as Milanese.
Bye, FB
-- 
"Gli americani sono ignoranti per loro stessa natura",
that is "Americans are naturally ignorant"
(Paolo Bonardi's opinion - it.cultura.linguistica -
http://snipurl.com/7ryg
)
More? 
http://snipurl.com/c92q

 like Friulano and Sardo.
Of course you can *also* call it a language, but don't say "like Sardo",
because if Piemontese is a language, then Sardo is 4 languages!
After all, if i can say that Italian is a dialect (of Latin), why couldn't
Piemontese be called "dialect"?

 quite different language, such as Milanese.
This is exactly what I was saying to Geos.

this language died in middle of 19th century.
According to Anna Maria Fiorentin the last speaker of Vegliot was
Antonio Udina aka Burbur.
Following is an exract of what he wrote and my translation from Anna
Maria Fiorentin's Italian to my English.
"I forlan favlua toc ne la sua langa, forlan, e ju kapaia toc de ko
ke-i favlua. Mut ju kapaia jamo un pauk, ma naun-e nanka join ke
favlua kauk. Fero i felgi de forlan kauk, de koi forlan ke lavorua nel
jan mil vapto ziant i tranta join. El su tuota se ju fermut kauk el-se
avas sposut kauk: se klamua Zuan Kaligaris. Ma i felgi no-i spaja
nauka nol'a favlur kosaik in forlan"
"The friulans spoke everthing in their language, friulan, and I
understood all that they were saying. Now I understand only a little,
but here there's not even one that speaks it. There are the sons of
the friulans here, of those friulans that worked in the year 1831.
Their father has married and settled here: his name was Giovanni
Calligaris. But the sons don't  (even) know to talk like this in,
friulan"
Luciano
ps Finellach, still mad at me? :)

 On the other side, Italian itself could be considered a dialect of Latin.
So could Croatian.
Latin: Et tu Brute.
Croatian: I ti Brute. 

 Croatian: I ti Brute.

Friulano is not a dialect, it's a LANGUAGE, like Sardo and Piemontese.
and like Sicilian too :)
Ciao,
 Luigi

and like Sicilian too :)
no, it's not. Sicilian is just a dialect

 ? "tu quoque brute"
The idea was to show that by choosing the right examples any language could 
be shown to be close to any other language in the same family tree, 
indoeuropean in this case. Classic Latin and Greek are particularly friendly 
to this treatment, since most european languages contain lots of loan words 
from those two languages.
Yesterday I drank a good italian wine named Est! Est! Est! Translated into 
Croatian that would be Jest! Jest! Jest!
: )

Croatian that would be Jest! Jest! Jest!
In italian E' E' E', so croatian is more latin than italian! :-)))

 In italian E' E' E', so croatian is more latin than italian! :-)))
What can I say? I rest my case.
:-)

What can I say? I rest my case.
Do you know KRSTAC from Montenegro?

 ps Finellach, still mad at me? :)
Why would I be mad at you?

 ? "tu quoque brute"
"Et tu, Brute" (also grammatically correct) is the version reported in
Shakespeare's "Julius Caesar". Suetonius, in "De Vita Caesarum", says that
he pronounced it in Greek ("Kai su, teknon?"). Not sure about Plutarch.
Enzo

 wrote in message
news:4221a275$1...@newsgate.hknet.com...

Ah, here it is (in English translation). According to Plutarch, when
Caesar saw Brutus among the conspirators he didn't say anything, but
ceased to resist:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Caesar*.html
    Therefore Brutus also gave him one blow in the groin. And it
    is said by some writers that although Caesar defended himself
    against the rest and darted this way and that and cried aloud,
    when he saw that Brutus had drawn his dagger, he pulled his
    toga down over his head and sank, either by chance or because
    pushed there by his murderers, against the pedestal on which
    the statue of Pompey stood.
Suetonius's version, on which Shakespeare's is probably based, is here:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/L/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Julius*.html
    Atque ita tribus et viginti plagis confossus est uno modo ad
    primum ictum gemitu sine voce edito, etsi tradiderunt quidam
    Marco Bruto irruenti dixisse: kai\ su\ te/knon;
Enzo



I made what I thought was a joke that you found offensive.
Luciano
Ps If in the future for some reason you get pissed off at me kindly
leave my parents out it. Thank you.

 3) When is the italian identity born?
What on earth is the "Italian identity"!?
--
Cingar
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 In italian E' E' E', so croatian is more latin than italian! :-)))
???
"Est! Est!! Est!!" does not mean "It is! It is!! It is!!"! It means "Eat!
Eat!! Eat!!!".
Don't you know the story behind this wine's name? It's very famous, and 
most brands of Est! Est!! Est!!! have the whole story printed on the label.




http://www.linguasiciliana.org/articuli_file/ethnologue.htm
Ciao,
 Luigi

 leave my parents out it. Thank you.
Excuse me?



I said "I coudn't resist", and in your reply you said, "too bad your
parents couldn't either"
My parents have been resting in peace for a long time, and I'd like to
keep it way..after this I would like to drop it.
Luciano

 keep it way..after this I would like to drop it.
I would think what Finellach meant is that your parents couldn't refrain
from conceiving you. Maybe that's what hurt your feelings -- your parents'
being dragged in, and I wouldn't be surprised, but you may be inferring
something else, far worse, which I'm sure Finellach didn't imply.
Sorry for interfering.
Bye, FB
-- 
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'. (Jane Austen)

 Sorry for interfering.
Nothing...

 most brands of Est! Est!! Est!!! have the whole story printed on the
label.
http://www.coopersoak.com/octnewsletter.htm#1
    [...]
    The Legend of Est! Est!! Est!!!
    Legend has it that in 1107, under the order of Holy Roman
    Emperor, Henry V, the German Bishop, Johannes-Dufuk, was
    sent to Rome. He was journeying there to visit the Pope in
    hope of being elevated to Cardinal. Being fond of fine wine
    and the good things in life, he sent his manservant ahead
    to find suitable lodging and the best wines along the way.
    The servant was instructed to mark "Est" ("It is " in
    Latin) on the walls of the inns where the food and wine
    were particularly delicious. In the town of Montefiascone,
    the servant was so impressed by the wines that one "Est"
    simply was not sufficient to express the quality, and so
    he wrote, "Est! Est!! Est!!!". When the Bishop arrived, he
    agreed so heartedly with the manservant that he never left
    Montefiascone (northern Lazio), and ultimately imbibed
    until his death, never reaching Rome or the Pope or
    achieving Cardinal. On the tomb where the Bishop is said
    to be buried reads an inscription: "Est, Est, Est et propter
    nimium est, dominus neus, mortuus est!" which translates,
    "it is, it is, it is, and because too much it is, my master
    dead is!"
Enzo

     Latin)
OK, different version of the story...
But what would be the reason of marking inns with a meaningless "It is"?
The version with "Eat (here)" makes more sense to me.
BTW, the story as I remember it talks explicitly about exclamation marks
which were added to the phrase when food or wine was particularly good.
But... did the exclamation mark already exist in the 12th century A.D.!?


Giņ
A man has dreams of walking with giants,
to carve his niche in the edifice of time.
Before the mortar of his zeal
has a chance to congeal
the cup is dashed from his lips,
the flame is snuffed aborning.

Cingar

But what would be the reason of marking inns with a meaningless "It is"?
To mean: it is... there.
Ciao.
Gian Carlo

 opposite.
Eye for eye, eye for eye, and they became blind.
:-)
-- 
pecunia non olet, sed scarseggiat semper

 EST! = THERE IS!
There is *what*? C'è un'osteria dove mangiare e bere? C'è una locanda dove
dormire? C'è una stazione di posta dove cambiare i cavalli? C'è pericolo di
essere rapinati? C'è una salita molto ripida?
--
Cingar
--------------------------------
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http://arianna.libero.it/usenet/

 Haha..it's being Italian.
Hence, the question was 100% silly.


Giò
