Newsgroup: it.arti.fantasy
Titolo: Lo Hobbit - versione originale?

Avrei una domanda per i filologi tolkeniani presenti in Locanda.
Chi mi sa dire quante e quali differenze ci sono fra la versione
originale de "Lo Hobbit" e quella "riveduta e corretta" che JRRT fece
per renderlo piu' "coerente" con ISDA?
-- 
                Claudia Rege Cambrin in Marcotroll 
   "IAFa" #12 - cameriera della Locanda delle Arti.Fantastiche
   Scansafatiche per talento naturale, Maestrina per vocazione
              Mamma di Elisa-Madouc (la IAFA # 12.1)
 togliete lo  ZUCCHERO  FILATO  dal mio indirizzo per rispondere

--> "CLCS" == Claudia La Cameriera Scansafatiche <c.regecamb...@FILATOlist.it> writes:
CLCS> Chi mi sa dire quante e quali differenze ci sono fra la versione
CLCS> originale de "Lo Hobbit" e quella "riveduta e corretta" che JRRT
CLCS> fece per renderlo piu' "coerente" con ISDA?
Essenzialmente ha  riscritto (1951)  il capitolo dell'incontro  di Bilbo
con Gollum, il  quale in origine non era cosi` malvagio  e mise in palio
l'Anello di sua volonta` nel gioco degli indovinelli, poi vinto da Bilbo
il quale  aveva gia` trovato l'Anello, per  cui se ne stette  zitto e in
cambio chiese a Gollum di  mostragli l'uscita: in pratica e` la versione
che viene citata anche in ISDA  (Prologo - 4. A proposito della Scoperta
dell'Anello) e di cui Bilbo chiede  scusa a Gloin durante il Concilio di
Elrond.
In edizioni successive ha modificato un altro po' di cose per rendere LH
piu` coerente con ISDA e il resto della "mitologia" della Terra di Mezzo
(non  ne  sono sicuro,  ma  un paio  di  modifiche  dovrebbero essere  i
riferimenti al Negromante di Dol Guldur e al Bianco Consiglio).
Segue il testo originale della prima edizione (in inglese, ovviamente)
del passaggio chiave del quinto capitolo:
Chapter V:  Riddles in the Dark
  A proposito di Gollum e del suo giungere alle Montagne Nebbiose:
     1937: "before the goblins came, and he was cut off from his friends
     far under under the mountains"
     1951:"before he lost all his friends and was driven away, alone,
     and crept down, down, into the dark under the mountains"
 
  Come dire che nella prima versione Gollum e` piu` una vittima delle
  circostanze che della sua intrinseca malvagita`.  
  Qui invece siamo alla fine degli indovinelli, quando Bilbo chiede "Che
  cos'ho  in tasca ?"  e Gollum  non riesce  ad indovinare,  pur barando
  (dando  cioe` la  doppia risposta  al terzo  tentativo:  "Spago oppure
  niente!"):
     "Both wrong," cried Bilbo very much relieved; and he jumped at once
     to his  feet, put his  back to the  nearest wall, and held  out his
     little sword.
  L'episodio continua come nell'edizione attuale fino a:
    But funnily  enough he  need not have  been alarmed.  For  one thing
    Gollum had learned  long long ago was never, never,  to cheat at the
    riddle-game, which is  a sacred one and of  immense antiquity.  Also
    there was the sword.  He simply sat and whispered.
 
    "What about the present?" asked  Bilbo, not that he cared very much,
    still he  felt that he had  one it, pretty fairly,  and in difficult
    circumstances too.
     "Must we  give it  the thing, preciouss?   Yess, we must!   We must
    fetch  it, preciouss,  and give  it  the present  we promised."   So
    gollum paddled back to his boat,  and Bilbo thought he had heard the
    last of him.  But he had not.  The hobbit was just thinking of going
    back up  the passage --  having had quite  enough of Gollum  and the
    dark water's edge -- when he heard him wailing and squeaking away in
    the gloom.   He was on  his island (of  which, of course  Bilbo knew
    nothing), scrabbling here and  there, searching and seeking in vain,
    and turning out his pockets.
 
    "Where iss it?   Where iss it?"  Bilbo heard  him squeaking.  "Lost,
    lost, my preciouss, lost, lost!  Bless us and splash us!  We haven't
    the present we promised, and we haven't even got it for ourselves."
 
    Bilbo turned round  and waited, wondering what it  could be that the
    creature  was  making such  a  fuss  about.   This proved  fortunate
    afterwards.  For Gollum came  back and made a tremendous spluttering
    and  whispering and  croaking; and  in the  end Bilbo  gathered that
    Gollum had a ring -- a wonderful, beautiful ring, a ring that he had
    been given for a birthday present,  ages and ages before in old days
    when  such rings were  less uncommon.   Sometimes he  had it  in his
    pocket;  usually he kept  it in  a little  hole in  the rock  on his
    island; sometimes ho  wore it -- when he was  very, very hungry, and
    tired  of fish,  and crept  along  dark passages  looking for  stray
    goblins.  Then he  might venture even into places  where the torches
    were lit and made his eyes blink and smart; but he would be safe.  O
    yes!   very nearly  safe;  for if  you  slipped that  ring on  yopur
    finger, you were invisable; only  in the sunlight could you be seen,
    and then only by your shadow, and that was a faint and shaky sort of
    shadow.
    I don't know  how many times Gollum begged  Bilbo's pardon.  He kept
    on saying: "We are ssorry; we didn't mean to cheat, we meant to give
    it our only present, if it won the competition."  He even offered to
    catch Bilbo some nice juicy fish to eat as a consolation.
    Bilbo shuddered  at the thought of  it.  "No thank you!"  he said as
    politely as he could.
    He was thinking hard, and the idea came to him that Gollum must have
    dropped that ring sometime and that  he must have found it, and that
    he had  that very ring in  his pocket.  But  he had the wits  not to
    tell Gollum.
    "Finding's keeping!" he  said to himself; and being  in a very tight
    place, I daresay he was right.  Anyway the ring belonged to him now.
    "Never mind!" he  said.  "The ring would have been  mine now, if you
    had found it; so you would have  lost it anyway.  And I will let you
    off on one condition."
    "Yes, what iss it?  What does it wish us to do, my preciouss?"
    "Help me get out of these places," said Bilbo.
    Now Gollum had to  agree to this, if he was not  to cheat.  He still
    very much wanted just to try  what the stranger tasted like; but now
    he had to give up all idea of it.  Still there was the little sward;
    and  the  stranger  was  wide   awake  and  on  the  look  out,  not
    unsuspecting as Gollum  liked to have the things  which he attacked.
    So perhaps it was best after all.
    That is how Bilbo got to know the tunnel ended at the water and went
    no further  an the other side  where the mountain wall  was dark and
    solid.  He also learned that he ought to have turned down one of the
    side passages  to the  right before  he came to  the bottom;  but he
    could not follow Gollum's directions for finding it again on the way
    up, and he made the wretched creature come and show him the way.
    As they went  along up the tunnel together,  Gollum flip-flapping at
    his side, Bilbo going very softly, he thought he would try the ring.
    He slipped it on his finger.
    "Where iss  it?  Where iss it  gone to?" said  Gollum, peering about
    with his long eyes.
    "Here  I am,  following behind!"  said Bilbo  slipping off  the ring
    again,  and feeling  very pleased  to have  it and  to find  that it
    really did what Gollum said.
    Now on  they went  again, while Gollum  counted the passages  to the
    left and  right: "One  lift, one right,  two left, three  right, two
    left," and  so on.  He  began to get  very shaky and afraid  as they
    left the water further and further behind; but at last he stopped by
    a low opening on their left (going up) -- "six right, four left."
    "Here's the passage," he whispered.   "It musst squeeze in and sneak
    down.  We durstn't go with it, my preciouss, no we dursn't, gollum!"
    So  Bilbo slipped under  the arch,  and said  good-bye to  the nasty
    miserable; and very gald he  was.  He did not feel comfortable until
    he felt quite sure it was gone, and he kept his head out in the main
    tunnel listening  until the  flip-flap of Gollum  going back  to his
    boat died away in the darkness.  Then he went down the new passage.
    It was  a low  narrow one roughly  made.  It  was all right  for the
    hobbit, except when he stubbed his toes in the dark on nasty jags in
    the floor; but it must have  been a bit low for goblins.  Perhaps it
    was not knowing that goblins were used to this sort of thing, and go
    along quite fast stooping low  with their hands almost on the floor,
    that made Bilbo forget the  danger of meeting them and hurry forward
    recklessly.
  Altre  modifiche ci  sno  poi nel  capitolo  successivo, quando  Bilbo
  spiega ai nani e a Gandalf le sue avventure sottoterra:
    1937: "So I  asked for my present,  and he went to look  for it, and
    couldn't find it.  So I said 'very  well, help me to get out of this
    nasty place!' and he showed  me the passage to the door.  'Good-bye'
    I said, and I went on down".
    1951: "So I  said: 'what about your promise?  Show  me the way out!'
    But he  came at  me to kill  me, and  I ran, and  fell over,  and he
    missed me  in the dark.   Then I followed  him, because I  heard him
    talking to himself.  He thought I really knew the way out, and so he
    was making  for it.   And then he  sat down  in the entrance,  and I
    could not get by.  So I jumped over him and escaped, and ran down to
    the gate".
Questo e` quanto sono riuscito a trovare.
Ovviamente (ho come un senso di deja-vu :-))c'e` una "Annotated Edition"
di The  Hobbit, a cura di  Douglas A.  Anderson ed  edita dalla Houghton
Mifflin, in cui si dovrebbero  trovare tutte le modifiche al testo delle
varie edizioni.
Saluti,
Luca Polo.
-- 
 /Luca Polo : 
Luca...@gest.unipd.it
 || Dipartimento di Tecnica e       \
| System & network administrator      || Gestione dei Sistemi Industriali |
 \
http://www.gest.unipd.it/~jake
      || Universita` di Padova -- Italy  /

 varie edizioni.
Vero, perň attenzione: di questa annotated edition esistono due versioni. 
La prima (che č stata anche tradotta e pubblicata in Italia come "Lo Hobbit 
Annotato") non contiene altro che qualche nota un po' inutile; la seconda, 
che in italiano non esiste, contiene anche una storia dele modifiche, ed i 
testi modificati.
-- 
Soronel l'Araldo
Se veramente cercate qualcosa guardate nelle vostre mani, č lě che si 
trova la vera definizione di magia.
http://members.xoom.it/soronel/

--> "Sl" == Soronel l'Araldo <klomp...@katambuto.com.invalid> writes:
Sl> la seconda, che in italiano non esiste, contiene anche una storia
Sl> dele modifiche, ed i testi modificati.
E' quella a cui mi riferivo io:
http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/catalog/titledetail.cfm?titleNumber=693091


 versioni.
Non e' ironico che esistano due versioni di una edizione annotata ad un
libro di cui esistono due versioni? :look:


 Questo e` quanto sono riuscito a trovare.
Molte grazie :)))))
Ero particolarmente curiosa riguardo ai riferimenti al Negromante, e mi
par di capire che tu confermi che si tratta di parti aggiunte...


--> "CLCS" == Claudia La Cameriera Scansafatiche <c.regecamb...@FILATOlist.it> writes:
CLCS> Ero particolarmente curiosa riguardo ai riferimenti al Negromante,
CLCS> e mi par di capire che tu confermi che si tratta di parti
CLCS> aggiunte...
"Confermi" e`  una parola  grossa: non ho  documenti scritti e/o  link a
pagine web, ma  solo un vago ricordo di aver  letto qualcosa del genere,
ma col dubbio di ricordare male o  di aver fatto un mix di due argomenti
diversi, e  The Annotated Hobbit e` uno  dei tanti libri in  coda per l'
acquisto (e mi sa che ci restera` ancora per un po', considerando i 3000
e passa Euro che ho speso ultimamente in strumentazione astronomica...).
