Newsgroup: it.cultura.ebraica
Titolo: che c'è scritto?

In questa apoteosi del kitsch e delle banalità possibilmente
"esotiche" (sono certo che qualcuno porti scritto "pollo alla kung
pao" sul culo) c'è anche questa frase che direi è in ivrit
http://tinyurl.com/2328lv
c.d.o., qualcuno è in grado di tradurla?
<:3)-
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Per il manifesto, le FAQ ed un'interfaccia Web visita 
http://www.e-brei.net/

E' una strofa del Shir Ha Shirim.
Manca la prima parola ( ???) che é nascosta dai cappelli.
cap VI verso 3 " Io sono del mio amato e lui mi appartiene ( il mio 
amato é colui che ) pascola tra le rose".
Bisognerebbe ucciderli.
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 Bisognerebbe ucciderli.
Ellapeppa!
Allora a questa che bisognerebbe fare?
http://tinyurl.com/3xd4rk
<:3)-
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 Bisognerebbe ucciderli.
Mah... mi sembra esagerato. Del resto, sono così bravi a farsi del male 
da soli! (-:
Ciao ed ancora complimenti,
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> Bisognerebbe ucciderli.
Bhe ovviamente era una battuta.
E`che una strofa simile sempre dello Shir Ha Shirim la ho nell'anello di 
matrimonio e vederla nella schiena di una Spice....
Certo che sono proprio ridicoli.
saluti Sime
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 vederla nella schiena di una Spice....
Che cos'ha il fondo schiena delle Spice che non ti piace? (((-:
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 Bisognerebbe ucciderli.
Uccidere chi? Chi si fa tatuare una bella frase sulla schiena (che di solito 
si presume coperta) in una lingua antica?
O uccidere è detto per via metaforica?
M.L.
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 M.L.
Come giá detto era solo una battuta.(riferita soprattutto alle altre 
immagini , alcuni tatuaggi  sono orrendi)
La frase é in effetti molto bella, non mi piace tatuata sulla schiena (x 
Barry ,niente a che vedere con i fondo  schiena delle spice, quelli 
direi che vanno bene cosí) ma a quel punto avrei osato di piú e l'avrei 
messo in evidenza.
Certo che anche  i tatuaggi non sono piú quelli di una volta, un tempo 
ci si tatuava il nome dell'amato\ amata come segno irremovibile del legame.
La frase dello Shir HaShirim é anche un  po ambigua .. il mio é un po 
generico.
Chissa se é un vero tatuaggio o una cosa temporanea ?
Tornando un pochino piú seri, mi ha stupito leggere che era difficile da 
tradurr.
La combinazione "dodi, le-dodi , ve-dodi" era un indizio iniquivocabile 
per capire che era tratta dallo Shir HaShirim, da li anche non sapendolo 
tradurre "direttamente dalla schiena della spice" non era difficile 
trovare la frase nel cantico, o é una mia impressione?
Come lavorate in genere per tradurre qualcosa?
Saluti
Sime
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 in una lingua antica?
Perché antica?
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 Come lavorate in genere per tradurre qualcosa?
dal dialetto calabrese?
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 dal dialetto calabrese?
(ah, preciso: la battuta è un riferimento a Fiorello e al suo circo).
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 dal dialetto calabrese?
varesino-giudaico-viareggino ?
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 varesino-giudaico-viareggino ?
è una battuta?
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 è una battuta?
un paio di giorni e ancora nessuna risposta. chissà se era il
riferimento a qualche tribù marrana
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 riferimento a qualche tribù marrana
No! problemi di salute.
ovvio che é una battuta... a battuta risposta con battuta.
Ma il post precedente rimane valido, che fate voi rabbinandi?
Analisi grammaticale?
Vi mettono mai un testo davanti a caso da tradurre?
E gli altri? vi   cimentate nel aprire il cumash a caso e vedere se 
riuscite a tradurre?
Vediamo se cosí riusciamo.
Saluti Sime
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 Vi mettono mai un testo davanti a caso da tradurre?
Anche, sì. E me la cavo piuttosto bene. Chi l'avrebbe mai detto, con
quelle referenze.
(1) Se vuoi ti spiego quella sui marrani, eh
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 Vediamo se cosí riusciamo.
In genere tutti insieme qualcosa riusciamo a capire (-:
Ciao,
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invented to _provide
    beforehand_ that men may be able to sin without bodily injury (if
    that were possible, which it is not). If a burglar, who had broken
    into my house and stolen my goods, were to fall and be hurt, I
    would be glad to get him into a hospital and have him nursed and
    cured; but I would not put a ladder up against my window at night
    and leave the windows open in order that he might steal my goods
    without danger of breaking his neck.
    "You will see clearly, also, the cowardliness and unmanliness of
    this law, inasmuch as it sacrifices women to men, the weak to the
    strong; that it deprives the woman of all that she has in life, of
    liberty, character, law, even of life itself (for it is a process
    of slow murder to which she is subjected), for the supposed
    benefit of men who are mean enough to avail themselves of this
    provision of lust.
    "Besides being grossly unjust, as between men and women, this law
    is a piece of class legislation of an extreme kind. The position
    and wealth of men of the upper classes place the women belonging
    to them above any chance of being accused of prostitution. Ladies
    who ride in carriages through the street at night are in no danger
    of being molested. But what about working women? what about the
    daughters, sisters and wives of working men, out, it may be, on
    an errand of mercy at night? and what, most of all, of that girl
    whose father, moth
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the British
    dominions." "These Acts declare it unlawful for anyone owing
    allegiance to the British Crown, whether within or without the
    dominions of the Crown, to hold or in any way deal in slaves, or
    to participate in any way in such dealing, or to do any act which
    would contribute in any way to enable others to hold or deal in
    slaves. This simple declaration, if it stood alone, would make
    every act of slave-holding a misdemeanour, but the Acts themselves
    make it piracy, felony, or misdemeanour, as the case may be, to
    do any of the acts declared to be unlawful. These Acts further
    declare that persons holden in servitude as pledges or pawns for
    debt shall, for the purpose of the Slave Trade Acts, be deemed and
    construed to be slaves, or persons intended to be dealt with as
    slaves. Hundreds of persons are held in such servitude as pledged
    or pawned in Hong Kong, and not one of the parties to such
    transactions has ever been proceeded against under these Acts."
    "In addition to the above-mentioned Acts of George, William and
    Victoria, there is also the Imperial Act, entitled The Slave
    Trade Act, 1873, which consolidates the laws for the suppression
    of the Slave Trade, and which is in force in Hong Kong by its own
    authority. We have also the provisions of the Local Ordinance 4 of
    1865, sections 50 and 51, and 2 of 1875."
    "Offenses against the provisions of these Ordinances, so far as
    they relate to women or children, are still very common, and
    are growing more numerous every day, and until the system of
    prostitution which prevails in this Colon
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up by prominent Chinese men and laid
before the Governor. As a representation from the Chinese standpoint
it has peculiar value at all points excepting where self-interest
might afford a motive for coloring the truth.
The occasion of these statements was as follows: On November 9, 1878,
a month before the report of the Commission was published, certain
Chinese merchants had petitioned the Governor to be allowed to form
themselves into a society for suppressing kidnaping and trafficking
in human beings. This petition states that the worst kidnapers are
"go-betweens and old women who have houses for the detention of
kidnaped people." They declare that these
    "inveigle virtuous women or girls to come to Hong Kong, at first
    deceiving them by the promise of finding them employment (as
    domestic servants), and then proceeding to compel them by force
    to become prostitutes, or exporting them to a foreign port, or
    distribute them by sale over the different ports of China, boys
    being sold to become adopted children, girls being sold to be
    trained for prostitution." "Your petitioners are of opinion
    that such wicked people are to be found belonging to any of the
    [neighboring] districts, but in our district of Tung Kun such
    cases of kidnaping are comparatively frequent, and all the
    merchants of Hong Kong, without exception, are expressing their
    annoyance."
Accompanying the petition was a statement of the situation:
    "Hong Kong is the emporium and thoroughfare of all the neighboring
    ports. The
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lost.
    Surrounded by the genial environment of our Mission, the minds of
    these four girls unfolded in a remarkable manner; fascinated with
    their studies, they constantly begged us to intercede with the
    authorities that they might remain in the Mission and obtain an
    education; but, although every effort was made, they were deported
    after a seven months' stay.
    They had learned to love our Home life, had united with our
    Christian Endeavor Society and had become interested in all our
    work, and we would be quite unreconciled to their departure did we
    not know that our missionaries in Shanghai stand ready to receive
    and care for them when they arrive.
    No. 6. Seen Fah. The first beams of the rising sun shone bright
    and hopefully into a pleasant room in the Presbyterian Mission
    Home one morning last autumn. It threw its cheerful radiance over
    a group of three gathered there to plan an important undertaking,
    lighting the bright, eager faces of two young Chinese girls, and
    giving renewed courage to the anxious heart of the Superintendent.
    What important event had to be discussed? What serious matter
    decided? News had reached the Mission Home, a few hours before,
    of a young Chinese girl just landed in San Francisco and sold for
    three thousand dollars. Plans to save this helpless and innocent
    child, before it was too late, were the subject of discussion at
    that early morning meeting. In such a serious undertaking every
    possibility of failure must be carefully guarded against. Each
    possible device of the wily Highbinder slave-owner must he
    conjectured and frustrated. So the three planned this campaign:
    "When is Detective ---- coming?" asked Chan Yuen, as a step sounded
    on the quiet street below. "At six he promised to be here with one
    of his trustiest men. It is best to reach Chinatown early, that
    our coming may not be signaled by those o
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-mother,
    that is to say, whom she may herself have purchased. The
    pocket-mothers are the real proprietresses of their purchases, and
    a brothel-keeper would not regard herself as in any way connected
    with such girls, beyond the obligation devolving upon her of
    registering the inmates of the house of which she, as tenant or
    owner, was the proprietress. A Chinese brothel is in fact merely
    a collection under one roof of several different establishments,
    consisting of the pocket-mothers and their purchases, the
    pocket-mothers for the most part being the body-servants of their
    charges, and administering to their daily wants, though in reality
    their mistresses and their absolute owners."
The document scarcely needs comment. It illustrates the fact that one
may have most ideal laws, but laws never operate automatically, and in
the absence of any desire to "let the oppressed go free," but rather
an eager desire to hold them in subjection to the base propensities of
profligate men, as all the State documents representing the situation
tend to show, there is small proof that the "Women and Girls'
Protective Ordinance of 1889" has had any appreciable effect in
altering the slave conditions at Hong Kong. The same old notorious
inspector, John Lee, who, Governor Hennessy thought, ought to have
been prosecuted for manslaughter, after he hounded those native women
to their death, was Chief Inspector of Brothels at Hong Kong in 1894,
when we made investigations in that Colony, and personally interviewed
many of these slave girls, and heard their stories.
The most recent official documents relating to the matter have been
commented upon in _The Shield_ (organ of 
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detaining and kidnaping human beings were not unfamiliar.
Only eleven years had elapsed since the Queen's proclamation against
slavery in that colony had been published to its inhabitants, and yet,
during that time, slavery had so advanced at Hong Kong, against
both Chinese and British law, as to receive this recognition and
acknowledgment on the part of the Secretary of State at London:
    1st, That it is a "grave fact that" at Hong Kong "large numbers of
    women" are "held in practical slavery."
    2nd, That this slavery is "for the gain of those to whom they
    suppose themselves to belong."
    3rd, That it is so cruel that "in some cases" they "perish
    miserably ... in the prosecution of their employment."
    4th, That it is "by no choice of their own" that they prosecute
    their employment, and "are subjected to such treatment."
    5th, That they have "an urgent claim upon the active protection of
    Government."
    6th, That the service to which these slaves are doomed, through
    "no choice of their own," is the most degraded to which a slave
    could possibly be reduced, i.e., "prostitution."
When Mrs. Harriet Beecher Stowe wrote "Uncle Tom's Cabin," she sounded
the note of doom for slavery in the United States. After that, slavery
became intolerable. Many have remarked on the fact that the book
should have so stirred the conscience of the Christian world, when
there are depicted in it so many even engaging features and admirable
persons, woven into the story of wrong. Her
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and even without, is here
    in advance of public opinion, as it expressly allows, by an edict,
    ... the sale of children only to extremely poor people in times
    of famine, and forbids even in that case re-sale of a child once
    bought."
This last admission on the part of Dr. Eitel, a fact already pointed
out by Sir John Smale, seems to us to clearly demonstrate that a
pretext was now being sought to justify at Hong Kong a state of things
as to slavery that the laws of China forbade and which in no wise
could be justified as Chinese "custom." "The reason for this immense
demand for young female domestics lies in the system of polygamy which
obtains all over the empire, and which has a religious basis." By this
he means that it is from the Chinese standpoint a religious duty for
a father to leave a son, upon his death, to continue the family
sacrifices. Therefore if the father has no son by his first wife, he
will "take a second or third or fourth wife until he procures a son."
"A family being in urgent distress, and requiring immediately a
certain sum of money, take one of their femal
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Of the total number of "unpaid passengers" arriving at Singapore
    and Penang, about 91 per cent eventually sign contracts and are
    made over to their employers or their agents, the majority of
    these being shipped off, under escort as before to the Native
    States of the Malay Peninsula or other neighboring countries, to
    labour for a fixed term of years after which the coolie is free to
    return to his native land or to seek such other employment as he
    may see fit.
    Such are the circumstances under which thousands of our fellow
    beings are annually brought to the labour market at Singapore, and
    it must be admitted that, to say the least of it, the system does
    not seem worthy of Western nineteenth century civilization. At the
    same time the extreme difficulty of controlling the 'depot and
    broker system,' or even of providing an efficient substitute for
    it, must be freely admitted. The system of Government contracts
    and inspection of immigrants has already done something toward
    ameliorating the condition of the coolie, and guarding him against
    illegal detention after his arrival at Singapore or Penang. Much
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 Come lavorate in genere per tradurre qualcosa?
Io lavoro con: dizionari vari, generalmente specialistici, tipo il Kittell, 
il Web, i molteplici contatti che tengo sull web...
Tu cosa usi?
M.L. 
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 Perché antica?
La lingua ebraica è moderna?
La Torah è scritta in una lingua moderna?
M.L. 
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 il Web, i molteplici contatti che tengo sull web...
Ti consiglio questo libro:
Mireille Hadas Lebel
Storia della lingua ebraica
La Giuntina - 1994
Prezzo: € 11.36
Ciao,
