Newsgroup: it.cultura.ebraica
Titolo: "Commentary" su Tom Segev, Ben Gurion, Shoah [LOL, ma quanto sono fessi quanti antisemiti !!!]

Sto spulciando un po di rete alla ricerca di qualche sito che parli del
tentato genocidio staliniano e cosa trovo? Ovviamente montagne e
montagne di merda sui "genocidi" fatti da ebrei di tutto il mondo, primo
fra tutti il genocidio di russi fatto da ebrei (comunisti).
Non so perché, mi incuriosisce un link che porta a Jew Watch (Keeping a
Close Watch on Jewish Communities & Organizations Worldwide), dò
un'occhiata e decido di vedere cosa c'è sotto Ben Gurion, nella
categoria dei "Jewish Terrorists".
Un bel po' di roba, sopratutto quel genere di negazionismo che piace in
particolar modo a certi marxisti (
www.marxist.de
), quello in cui si
parla della collaborazione tra Yishuv e nazisti per favorire lo
sterminio di ebrei inabili e trasportare in Palestina quelli giovani e
forti. Un negazionismo che si nutre non solo di merda infame
autoprodotta, ma anche della lettura selettiva di un libro piuttosto
controverso (che non ho ancora letto) ma accettato, come "Il settimo
milione" scritto da un giornalista conosciuto e apprezzato come Tom
Segev.
Bene.
Tra le cose listate su Jewatch.com, vedo un articolo di "Commentary",
sul ruolo di Ben Gurion durante la Shoah. Sono scioccato e perplesso.
Cosa potrà aver scritto "Commentary" che possa essere gradito a Jewatch,
mi chiedo.
Poi comincio a leggere. E' una stronatura feroce di Segev, e un attacco
violento e documentato a chi addebita allo Yishuv una certa tiepidezza
verso la Shoah in corso.
Gli idioti di Jewatch hanno visto il titolo e lo hanno copiato e
incollato senza nemmeno leggerlo !!! 
Da leggere, si risparmiano anche 4,75 svalutati USD di consultazione.
Grazie Jewatch!
L'articolo credo sia di Hillel Halkin
===========================
Ben-Gurion's Role in the Holocaust.(book reviews)
===========================
 ( Commentary )
 Three years ago I wrote a harsh review for the weekly Forward of a book
called The Seventh Million: The Israelis and the Holocaust by Tom Segev,
an Israeli journalist turned popular historian. Segev' s book was in
large part an attack on the leaders of the jewish settlement (Yishuv) in
Palestine during World War II, and especially on David Ben-Gurion, then
head of the Jewish Agency Executive, for being either shockingly
unconcerned or callously instrumental in their attitude toward the
murder of European Jewry.
 In my review of the book I dwelt particularly on this thesis, citing as
an example of Segev's dishonest argumentation a passage deliberately
fostering the illusion that a March 1942 Hebrew newspaper editorial
minimizing the dimensions of the Holocaust had appeared months later
than it did. Although I suspected The Seventh Million of containing many
more such misleading sleights of hand, I was not well-read enough in the
period to spot most of them.
 Shabtai Teveth, an Israeli journalist turned serious historian, and a
biographer of David Ben-Gurion, is well-read in it - and has confirmed
my suspicions. With Tom Segev's book as his main target, he has mounted
a devastating counterattack not just on Segev himself but on the entire
phenomenon of what he calls the "Jewish revisionism" of "Jews blaming
Jews for not having rescued Europe's Jews from the Holocaust" and even
"for helping the Nazis bring about the Holocaust." In doing so, he has
shown how a disparate coalition of historical revisionists who otherwise
have little in common - right-wing critics of Ben-Gurion and his
colleagues, left-wing ideologues in Israel and elsewhere, ultra-Orthodox
anti-Zionists, post-Zionist "new historians" - have joined over the
years to cite and repeat each other's distortions, thereby creating the
impression of a formidable body of scholarly literature sustaining their
claims when in fact there is none at all.
 One of the many examples that Teveth analyzes is that of the so- called
"Europa Plan," as part of which, in the first half of 1943, negotiations
were conducted with a high-ranking SS officer named Dieter Wisleceny who
had offered to stop the shipment of 2.5 million Jews to the death camps
in return for $2-3 million. A go-between in these talks was the
ultra-orthodox Hungarian rabbi Michael Dov-Ber Weissmandel, who later
wrote a book accusing the Zionist leadership of sabotaging the plan. To
support his case, Weissmandel cited a letter he claimed to have seen
that had been written to Zionist activists in Slovakia by a field worker
in Geneva named Nathan Schwalb; in that letter, Schwalb allegedly
explained to his colleagues that Zionism, in order to sting the world's
conscience after the war, needed not live Jews but dead ones, and that
the sum of money he was enclosing was intended to provide solely for the
private escape of the letter' s recipients.
 Weissmandel's accusation was first picked up and widely circulated
after the war by his ultra-Orthodox brethren. It was then repeated by
the parliamentary opposition in Israel in connection with the Rudolf
Kasztner trial in the mid-1950's, which involved charges of Zionist-
Nazi complicity in Hungary; it formed the basis of the anti-Zionist
drama Perdition (1986), written by the non-Jewish English playwright Jim
Allen; and it is accepted as factual by Segev. Yet as Teveth shows, not
only was the SS officer almost certainly a swindler who had no
intention, let alone capability, of making good on his promise; and not
only did the Jewish Agency Executive in Palestine, despite its awareness
of this, try hard to come up with the money (a sum equivalent to a far
larger amount today, and not easily raisable under wartime conditions
when ordinary travel and mail were disrupted), but Schwalb himself
worked tirelessly on behalf of the Europa Plan. He never wrote the
letter which Weissmandel insisted he had seen.
 Or take the notorious "Trucks for Blood" episode in mid-1944, which
involved a real (if not necessarily sincere) Nazi offer, apparently
originating with Adolf Eichmann and made to a Hungarian Zionist named
Joel Brand, to trade a million Hungarian Jews for 10,000 trucks to be
supplied to the Germans by the Allies. According to Segev in The Seventh
Million, even if
 the Jewish Agency was unable, by itself, to deliver 10,000 trucks to
the Nazis ... it would seem that [it] did not do all it could to lead on
the Germans behind the backs of the British.... [It] was time for a
great bluff. The Yishuv leadership could have disobeyed the British
orders [not to deal with Eichmann's representatives] and negotiated
secretly with the Nazis... but nothing was done.
 As Teveth documents, however, from the moment Brand landed in Istanbul
in mid-May until his release from British preventive detention in Cairo
in October, when there were no longer any Hungarian Jews left to save,
the Jewish Agency made frantic efforts to have him sent back to Hungary
with an Allied acceptance, real or pretended, of Eichmann' s offer. The
British, who were perhaps more afraid of a million Jews with nowhere to
go but Palestine than of the use the Germans might make of the trucks,
would not even let the Agency's "foreign minister, " Moshe Sharett, meet
with Brand, much less return Brand to Budapest to try to string Eichmann
along. Even to bluff one needs some cards; Ben-Gurion had none.
 In case after case like this, Teveth demonstrates that, despite
assertions to the contrary, the Zionist leadership in Palestine did what
it could, and that if it saved pitifully few Jews, this was because
there was pitifully little it could do. Without an army, air force,
navy, or diplomatic corps; with no means of reliable contact with
operatives behind Nazi lines; with hardly any money; with no support
from, or leverage on, the world's governments and little interest on the
part of the world's press; totally dependent for the simplest logistical
support on hostile or uncaring British officials in Jerusalem and
London; exposed until the battle of El Alamein in late 1942 to Rommel's
threatened conquest of Palestine, which would have sent them to the gas
chambers too, the half-million Jews of the Yishuv were reduced to
reading of the slaughter in Europe with clenched teeth. Ben-Gurion spoke
for his and their anguish when he cried out to the nations of the
world...
 The real question, then, is not whether there was Zionist indifference
toward, much less collusion with, the Nazi genocide. It is what can have
motivated and sustained such a horrendous self-accusation among its
Jewish and Israeli propagators.
 This strikes me as close to the truth. I would only add that, when it
comes to the Holocaust, there is something for many Jews to feel guilty
about - and if it is human nature to blame those who produce the
greatest guilt in us, then blaming Zionism and Ben-Gurion for complicity
in the Holocaust is not all that hard to understand. For the Zionists
were the one element in the Jewish world that, in the 1920's and 30's,
told the jews of Europe to get out while they could. While the Jewish
Left was urging Jews to stay and participate in the anti-fascist
struggle; and many of the pious were exhorting them to put their trust
in God; and the liberals and assimilationists were confident that the
Hitlerite aberration would blow over; and all fulminated against being
taken in by the self-serving doom-mongering of the Zionists, they alone
consistently spoke of emigration as the only solution and had the
prescience to realize, as Ben-Gurion declared in January 1935, that "The
disaster which has befallen German Jewry is not limited to Germany
alone. Hitler's regime places the entire Jewish people in danger."
 It is true that what interested the Zionists was primarily emigration
to Palestine - the only country, they quite rightly believed, where
there was any chance of settling large numbers of Jews; true, too, that
even there British immigration policy, increasingly selective in the
course of the 1930's, would sooner or later have put a stop to the flow.
But not only could the difference between "sooner" and "later" have
saved hundreds of thousands of Jewish lives; it might, by greatly
increasing the Jewish population of Palestine, have forced the British
to execute the Peel Commission plan for creating a small Jewish state in
the late 1930's. Had such an independent mini-state, strongly supported
by Ben-Gurion as a stopgap measure, been established, the dream of
rescuing millions might have been realizable.
 But for the most part, the Jews of Europe accepted the arguments of the
Zionists' opponents, who were already then accusing Zionism of feeding
off, and even cooperating with, the Nazis. One of the Zionist policies
most castigated in this respect was the Jewish Agency's 1933 "transfer
agreement" with the Nazi ministry of economics, which - in technical
violation of an attempted Jewish boycott of German goods - enabled
hundreds of thousands of German Jews to come to Palestine by exchanging
Jewish assets forcibly abandoned and confiscated in Germany for German
industrial exports.
 Such accusations had, indeed, a twisted logic, for if the Nazis' rise
to power both confirmed Zionist predictions and actively encouraged Jews
to leave for Palestine, it was but a small step for anti-Zionists to
conclude that the Zionists had an interest in the Nazis' success, and
but one step further to surmise that they must be abetting it. And after
the war, still refusing to confront their guilt for having rejected and
urged others to reject all of Zionism's pleas and warnings, some Jews
took another step and supported the calumny that, since what had made
the state of Israel possible was the Holocaust, the Zionists must have
had a hand in that, too.
-- 
Alcuni di noi hanno storie di merda che fanno male. 
(il primo kiwi con tastiera incorporata)
---
Per il manifesto, le FAQ ed un'interfaccia Web visita 
http://www.e-brei.net/

Poi comincio a leggere. E' una stronatura feroce di Segev, 
Tonibaruch, adesso basta ! Dagli assiomi alla Libero sei passato alla
linea del Foglio.
Ma è inutile: i coraggiosi nuovi storici israeliani, prodemente difesi
dalla Redfiddler, hanno già resistito all'attacco di Emanuele
Ottolenghi, ed il loro silenzio, nella attuale temperie, è solo
temporaneo
Finito il lutto per Arafat, riprenderà la lotta per la pace. 
---
L'economia dipende dagli esperti, tanto quanto il tempo dipende dai metereologi.


 Finito il lutto per Arafat, riprenderà la lotta per la pace. 
Un amarognolo LOL.
Tb
-- 
Alcuni di noi hanno storie di merda che fanno male. 
(il primo kiwi con tastiera incorporata)


 Segev.
lettura selettiva.
un argomento pericoloso.
E Segev è un bravo ragazzo.
prot
A


 dalla Redfiddler,
Io difendo per principio quelli che stanno sulle palle a te.
Ho constatato che automaticamente casco su ottima gente, di solito....
Relax, faccine facciň.
A


Ho constatato che automaticamente casco su ottima gente, di solito....
uhm... hai provato a farli accoppiare ? 
mi chiedevo cosa può uscire dalla coppia de martis-somekh... 
---
L'economia dipende dagli esperti, tanto quanto il tempo dipende dai metereologi.


 mi chiedevo cosa può uscire dalla coppia de martis-somekh...
vabbè, adesso però vai sul pesante, eh....
A
