2008/02/13/#ubuntu-ops.txt

[00:02] <PriceChild> nosrednaekim, please ping me when ready.
[00:03] <nosrednaekim> PriceChild➜ right.. thanks
[00:03] <PriceChild> funky little arrow there
[00:03] <nosrednaekim> ^_^
=== nosrednaekim is now known as nosredna_ekim
=== nosredna_ekim is now known as nosrednaekim
[00:05] <nosrednaekim> ping PriceChild
[00:05] <PriceChild> cool
[00:05] <PriceChild> nosrednaekim, so if you "/msg nickserv info nosrednaekim", it shows your alternate nickname and the email?
[00:05] <Pici> claydoh: 'Evening, how can we help you?
[00:06] <claydoh> I also would like to request a cloak, new Kubuntu membership here
[00:06] <PriceChild> where's this meeting been going on?
[00:06] <nosrednaekim> PriceChild➜ yep.. everything is good
[00:06] <PriceChild> nalioth, ubuntu/member cloak for nosrednaekim please. I have added to launchpad group.
[00:06] <PriceChild> claydoh, have you added a secondary nickname and email via nickserv?
[00:07]  * claydoh checks...
[00:07] <Pici> claydoh: like this: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
[00:10] <claydoh> PriceChild: should be all set
[00:10] <PriceChild> claydoh, launchpad url please?
[00:10] <claydoh> https://edge.launchpad.net/~claydoh
[00:11] <PriceChild> nalioth, ubuntu/member cloak for claydoh please, I have added to launchpad group.
[00:12] <nosrednaekim> thanks PriceChild
[00:12] <PriceChild> nosrednaekim, no problem
[00:12] <claydoh> thanks folks!
[00:13] <PriceChild> Thankyou nalioth.
[00:16] <PriceChild> crap...
[00:16] <PriceChild> i added then to ubuntu-irc instead of -cloaks
[00:18] <LjL> yikes
[00:20] <PriceChild> fixed
[00:38] <ubotu> In #ubuntu-bots, ffm said: !baz is <alias> bzr
[00:38] <jdong> !bzr
[00:38] <ubotu> bzr is Bazaar-NG, a decentralized revision control system designed to be easy for developers and end users alike. Decentralized revision control systems give people the ability to work over the internet using the bazaar development model.  See http://bazaar-vcs.org/QuickHackingWithBzr for a quickstart guide.
[00:38] <jdong> baz and bzr aren't the same thing.
[00:38] <ubotu> In #ubuntu-bots, ffm said: !if is then.
[00:51] <astro76> two unsancionted channels have been created
[00:51] <astro76> #ubuntu-uncensored and ##ubuntu-uncensored
[00:52] <astro76> if anyone is interested
[00:53] <PriceChild> that topic reminds me of something...
[00:54] <PriceChild> I remember emma talking about some sort of *#linux* channel... had that topic
[00:55] <PriceChild> LjL, down boy
[00:55] <PriceChild> ah well, life goes on
[00:55] <LjL> down the fuck
[00:55] <LjL> she was discussing politics again
[00:56] <LjL> i warned pretty clearly
[00:57] <PriceChild> ah sorry
[00:58] <LjL> no sorry for language, she just made me snap
[01:00]  * Seeker` gives LjL a cookie
[01:05] <elkbuntu> nalioth, please look into the above
[01:31] <LjL> keescook: /cs identify #ubuntu-hardened
[01:31] <keescook> LjL: heh, yeah, just figured that out.  :)
[01:32] <keescook> sweet.  this rocks.  thanks!  /me heads to dinner
[02:55] <Sapote> hi all!! anybody is ubuntu member? have a cuestion about canonical
[02:56] <PriceChild> Sapote, This channel is for operator/abuse questions. I'm feeling generous though, so what's the question?
[02:56] <Sapote> yes, is for send info to canonical about this http://winutuxu.fr.ma/
[02:57] <Sapote> winxp sp2 and logo of ubuntu 
[02:57] <PriceChild> Sapote, http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy might be useful to you.
[02:58] <Sapote> many thanks!
[02:58] <nalioth> Sapote: have you tried #canonical?
[02:58] <Sapote> bye
[02:58] <Sapote> no
[02:58] <Sapote> ok
[02:58] <Sapote> bye
[02:58] <nalioth> well, that IS where Canonical folks are
[03:04]  * mneptok forwards that to London
[03:05] <emma> Hello
[03:05] <PriceChild> Hello emma.
[03:05] <mneptok> heya emma 
[03:05] <nalioth> hi emma 
[03:05] <emma> I feel this is very heavy handed. No one bothers to speak to me directly (except for PriceChild I should say) . I've done nothing malicious to anyone ever. It's not in my character.
[03:06]  * mneptok searches for some context
[03:06] <PriceChild> mneptok, -offtopic
[03:06] <PriceChild> emma, Do you believe I have not been able to handle the situation as well as I could if others had had a bigger involvement?
[03:07] <nalioth> if PriceChild says it, so say we all.
[03:07] <mneptok> except me. but no one sane pays attention to me.
[03:07] <PriceChild> Also, I know some people find discussions in this channel extremely intimidating due to the amount of operators who will jump in on conversations.
[03:07] <emma> I was baned from #ubuntu-offtopic.  For talking about how people should vote for who they like best, not for who they think can win. I think that's a philosophical point. I'm not telling anyone who to vote for.
[03:07] <PriceChild> That is not what you were banned for.
[03:08] <emma> But okay. I get it, your rules are your rules. I made a mistake. I do understand that and I don't even really argue that.
[03:08] <nalioth> yes, mneptok, go race some pumpkins or something  :P
[03:08] <PriceChild> We spent some time discussing what happenned in that channel, and what brought about the ban.
[03:09] <emma> So I was kicked. When I came back the op who kicked me told me that only his opinion mattered. That rubbed me the wrong way. Why say that? Why knock a person down and then stand over them like that? I work with people in my job, people who are difficult to deal with, I know that if I embarrass them in front of others it will be hard to cooperate.
[03:09] <mneptok> emma: subsequently comparing a person behaving that way to an abusive prison guard will only escalate the problem.
[03:10] <mneptok> emma: and both the political comments and the ad hominem remarks will not end well, as you see.
[03:10] <PriceChild> emma, unfortunately I don't believe I have time to go over all this again. We discussed each major point pretty thoroughly in PM so I urge you to re-read the log of our discussion. I believe we came to an understanding and conclusion of why each happenned.
[03:10] <emma> So after I was kicked, I thought, well okay, it's not my channel. I should respect the rules of some one elses channel. So I just did what I thought a free person could do -- I went and made my own channel. I thought it could be a place where the smart people' ive met in ubuntu channels could talk about interesting things more freely basically.
[03:11] <PriceChild> emma, This may be FREEnode, it may be devoted to free software, but it still has guidelines.
[03:12] <mneptok> emma: you are welcome to create channels. you are not welcome to create channels that do not follow the CoC with Canonical's "Ubuntu" trademark in their name.
[03:12] <emma> mneptok -- well thats true, but there are two salient remarks that must be made (1) all of my passive aggressive remarks came after I was told that only ops opinions mattered. And (2) (this is the most important one) my metaphor about Abu Gharaib was not out of context it was a response.
[03:12] <mneptok> emma: any #*ubuntu* channel is expected to floow the CoC
[03:12] <nalioth> Freenode isn't like other networks.  Our channel guidelines can be found here: http://freenode.net/channel_guidelines.shtml emma 
[03:13] <emma> three lines above my comment someone said this: 
[03:13] <emma> <Brenny> emma, look up the Zimbardo experiment if you don't already know it, good read.
[03:13] <mneptok> emma: why passive aggression? why not walk away for an hour or so?
[03:13] <emma> mneptok - probably should have.
[03:13] <PriceChild> emma, you were comparing us all to abusive prison guards.
[03:13] <PriceChild> drunk on power
[03:13] <mneptok> emma: probably should now, as well. one man's opinion.
[03:13] <emma> I was responding to what someone else said.
[03:13] <PriceChild> agreeing with it...
[03:13] <emma> The Zimbardo experiment is relatively famous. 
[03:14] <PriceChild> I'm not denying anything you are saying here...
[03:14] <emma> But look, I'm not really disagreeing much here. I don't think my behavior has been model.
[03:14] <mneptok> then there it is.
[03:14] <mneptok> there's the answer.
[03:15] <emma> I don't think things were handled so well though.
[03:16] <mneptok> but if your behavior isn;t above reproach you don;t have much solid ground to stand on.
[03:16]  * mneptok bashes the semi-colon key mercilessly
[03:16] <emma> I am a reasonable person and I'm always likely to cooperate with reasonable people who are being respectful. It's also in the logs where I said I'm more used to dealing with people the way that people deal with each other offline. 
[03:18] <emma> Kicking me for talking about the philosophy of voting in an offtopic channel was not necessary, and the comments made after I was kicked were further inflammatory. 
[03:18] <mneptok> emma: i think if you understood how much abuse and crap we have to deal with every day you'd be more sympathetic to ops having a low tolerance for bullcrap or any other untoward behavior.
[03:18] <PriceChild> Ok I think that is enough for tonight.
[03:18] <emma> Everything came from that.
[03:18] <emma> How about sending me a pm? 
[03:19] <PriceChild> emma, you have clearly not listened to much that I have said tonight, or suddenly decided that you no longer agree.
[03:19] <emma> Not so. I've heard every word and I have not contradicted anything I've said.
[03:19] <emma> I think that mneptok has probably given the best advice of all. I should probably walk away
[03:19] <nalioth> emma: i think it's better to discuss this issue in this channel
[03:19] <emma> but i was told to come in here after my channel was destroyed.
[03:20] <emma> well that's what I'm doing here. 
[03:20] <emma> I'm sure that you gentlemen are reasonable also and you can imagine my perspective, I would think.
[03:21] <emma> I freely admit that I am a spirited person and little issues of justice to stick with me. It's difficult for me to let things go at time, but I'm not being uncivil.
[03:21] <nalioth> emma: you'll find that ##ubuntu-uncensored is where you left it
[03:22] <mneptok> nalioth: that makes me uneasy without IRC Council approval.
[03:22] <nalioth> the other #ubuntu-* channels were non-COC and were repointed
[03:22] <nalioth> mneptok: TWO ##
[03:22] <mneptok> ach so.
[03:22] <mneptok> somebody get me my big red diet pill and my shotgun.
[03:23] <emma> From my perspective I was kicked without any warning for talking about philosophical things in an offtopic channel. Then when I returned I felt like the op was grandstanding telling me that only his opinions mattered. 
[03:23] <PriceChild> tbh I'm happy for you to disagree with our opinions. What I am unhappy with is how you have ignored our reasoning which I have explained previously. Instead you come here claiming we ban you for being philosophical. emma I would suggest nothing good will come of further discussion tonight. Instead I think its time to take a rest, and perhaps try to discuss it again tomorrow.
[03:24] <emma> I made a channel for people who like ubuntu to talk about whatever they like (when I say whatever I like, I have in mind academic things like philosophy or current events by the way) and then that was destroyed without you bothering to even talk to me about it.
[03:24] <emma> so you can see how from my perspective Im feeling a little bit pushed around?
[03:24] <PriceChild> emma, that is not true, and is enough.
[03:24] <PriceChild> We did discuss it.
[03:25] <emma> and when i say 'you' i mean nalioth
[03:25] <emma> yes i just clarified the 'you' there. 
[03:25] <PriceChild> emma, I requested nalioth close the channel.
[03:25] <emma> You did begin to discuss it with me, but you just asked me to get rid of it. That's what you asked me to do. 
[03:25] <mneptok> emma: FWIW, i would have requested the same thing.
[03:25] <emma> and this was while you were banning me.
[03:25] <PriceChild> I have not once banned you.
[03:25] <emma> 'you' in the general sense.
[03:26] <emma> youall
[03:26] <mneptok> emma: channel ownership is a privilege, not a right. if Freenode staff want to whack a channel, that's their right.
[03:26] <PriceChild> You were given reasoning before the channel was closed. 
[03:26] <PriceChild> You later requested further clarification, and it was given before the channel was closed.
[03:26] <emma> I don't quite agree with that.
[03:27] <mneptok> agree with what?
[03:27] <PriceChild> Maybe we can discuss that tomorrow too.
[03:27] <mneptok> that Freenode staff get to decide what happens on their network?
[03:27] <mneptok> that seems so patently obvious as to be self-evident.
[03:28] <emma> There was a third channel which I was seeing being closed which, maybe you were explaining things then, but I was distracted since I thought it was remarkable that naolith could come in and take my channel away. From a purely objective point of view, I found that remarkable. 
[03:28] <emma> im saying, not from an emotional point of view, i just didn't know that was possible so I thought that was kind of fascinating.
[03:28] <mneptok> emma: is there an action item in there?
[03:29] <emma> What is that?
[03:29] <mneptok> something we need to actually *do*
[03:29] <mneptok> apart from your own internal monologue about the fascinating aspect of having Freenode staff close a channel.
[03:29] <emma> Well I would like to have the ban on me in #ubuntu-offtopic lifted. I think if we can do that then we can all agree it was unfortunate and everyone here can expect it won't happen again.
[03:30] <PriceChild> emma, That will not be happenning tonight.
[03:30] <emma> Alright then.
[03:30] <mneptok> i suspect that bann will remain for 24h minimum, based on Pricey's last few comments
[03:30] <mneptok> *ban
[03:40] <PriceChild> emma, is there anything else we can help you with this evening?
[03:41] <emma> No. I just want to say that I do apologize for my part, and that I do recognize that the ops in the #ubuntu-channels have a lot to deal with. 
[03:44] <mneptok> not to mention having to keep our make-up fresh and the horses ready to ride.
[03:44]  * mneptok whinnies through his Maybelline
[03:44] <PriceChild> emma, see you another day then.
[03:44] <emma> lol mneptok 
[03:45] <emma> okay PriceChild - Thank you for talking to me directly. I really think that is a good approach. 
[03:45] <emma> Hopefuly after a period of time everything can be sorted out. Have a good night.
[04:12] <PriceChild> lovely
[04:19] <jdong> PriceChild: can you keep paladine under control in #uf
[04:19] <jdong> I'm backing out of the conversation
[04:24] <PriceChild> ok
[04:25] <jdong> thankies, I'm gonna try not to invoke him anymore for the rest of the night
[04:25] <PriceChild> seems to have stopped?
[04:25] <jdong> PriceChild: yeah, that's a good thing
[04:26] <jdong> let's let it stay that way :)
[04:26] <ubotu> In #ubuntu-us-ga, dendrobates said: !5 years is a long time in this day and age.
[05:22] <nickrud> LjL: you about?
[05:26] <nalioth> he's asleep, nickrud 
[05:26] <nalioth> it's dark on his side of the world
[05:26] <nickrud> nalioth: ah, wasn't sure what time zone he was in
[05:26] <nalioth> anything i can help ya with?
[05:26] <tonyyarusso> nickrud: UTC+2
[05:27] <nickrud> no, he dragged me into this, told him I'd show up here eventually. It can wait
[05:27] <nalioth> ah yes
[05:27] <nalioth> our newest victim
[05:27] <nalioth> er
[05:27] <nalioth> operator  :D
[05:28] <nickrud> reading over the irc stuff, I realized I had to _finally_ sign that coc thing
[05:28] <nickrud> always wanted to have the out of, 'gee, I never saw that' :)
[05:28] <tonyyarusso> nickrud: as in really commit to it, or finally read up on how?
[05:28] <tonyyarusso> ah
[05:30] <Madpilot> heh
[05:31] <nickrud> plus, I never liked the term ubuntero. Tastes bad. I forget what some of the options were, but I think I said anything but that one
[05:32] <Madpilot> it used to be "Ubuntite", I seem to recall. 'ubuntero' seems like pseudo-Spanish.
[05:33] <nickrud> god, I hope that isn't one I spoke up for, that's worse
[05:33] <tonyyarusso> I don't remember being consulted...
[05:35] <Madpilot> sabdfl changed it a while ago to 'ubuntero'. can't recall what it was before.
[05:36] <nickrud> I wasn't consulted either. I just remember the discussion, and pushed in my 2 cents.
[11:45] <dgjones> can i draw your attention to Ramon- in #ubuntu, the spammer from the last couple of days is back under a different name
[11:47] <ubotu> erUSUL called the ops in #ubuntu (Ramon-)
[11:47] <dgjones> posting the same things as before "Do you want to read the revelation" "it involves biblical figures"
[11:48] <Mez> Alpaco again?
[11:48]  * Mez pokes Dave2 
[11:49] <dgjones> Mez, couldn't remember what nick they were using, but sounds about right
[11:51] <Mez> that was a free shell thing he was using
[12:46] <Aloha> anyone know if kitofhwaii is still active in #ubunu-us-hi?
[12:46] <Aloha> ubuntu*
[12:53] <Jack_Sparrow> I have not seen her in awhile
[13:02] <TheSheep> anybody know trainingday1 ?
[13:14] <elkbuntu> TheSheep, network-wide troll i think
[13:14] <TheSheep> elkbuntu: thanks
[13:33] <ubotu> nixternal called the ops in #ubuntu-meeting ()
[13:34] <nixternal> possible for me to get some ops in #ubuntu-meeting
[13:36] <elkbuntu> i'm the only irc council member who doesnt have access there, so sorry
[13:37] <Tm_T> haha
[15:24] <nixternal> nalioth: soren is looking at taking over #ubuntu-virt - I can vouch for him especially seeing as he is a MOTU Council member...anything we need to do?
[15:38] <Seeker`> Is there a "we are not a support channel, try #ubuntu" factoid?
[15:39] <Seeker`> and, if there isn't, can we have one please?
[15:39] <jussi01> !support
[15:39] <ubotu> The official ubuntu support channel is #ubuntu. Also see http://ubuntu.com/support and http://ubuntuforums.org
[15:39] <Seeker`> hmm, not hugely keen on the wording of that
[15:41] <jussi01> Seeker`: so you mean something like the opposite of !ot
[15:41] <Seeker`> I mean something like "This is not a dedicated support channel. You may have more luck getting your questions answered in #ubuntu"
[15:43] <Seeker`> we get a lot of people in -uk asking for support, and I feel that the factoid should make some statement about the channel we are in, rather than just making statements about #ubuntu
[15:58] <nalioth> Seeker`: #ubuntu-uk isn't for support?
[15:58] <Seeker`> not specifically, no
[15:59] <Seeker`> we usually try to give support if it is asked for
[16:00] <Seeker`> however, we regularly get people either asking lots of questions, or particularly difficult questions (or sometimes both), at which point we direct them to #ubuntu
[16:04] <nalioth> right.
[16:04] <nalioth> there are only a couple of channels i feel shouldn't provide support
[16:04] <nalioth> this one is one of them
[16:05] <nalioth> i think a factoid "this is not a dedicated support channel" would be kinda rude
[16:05] <Seeker`> its what we type to people regularly
[16:05] <nalioth> better you just tell them that they've reached the extent of your support and they're more likely to find more support in #ubuntu 
[16:06] <Jack_Sparrow> Why have a Ub-uk if they are just sent here?
[16:06] <Seeker`> Jack_Sparrow: huh?
[16:07] <Jack_Sparrow> Why even have a ubuntu-uk room if you are just going to send them here for help
[16:07] <Seeker`> we dont send them here, we send them to #ubuntu
[16:07] <Jack_Sparrow> yes, to ubuntu
[16:08] <Seeker`> and locos aren't just for technical support
[16:08] <Jack_Sparrow> I am just trying to see the point of having the room
[16:08] <jpatrick> !uk | Jack_Sparrow 
[16:08] <ubotu> Jack_Sparrow: Join us for a discussion using the Queen's English in #ubuntu-uk
[16:09] <Jack_Sparrow> What has the queens english have to do with ubuntu
[16:10] <Seeker`> Jack_Sparrow: what is the point of -es or -de?
[16:10] <Jack_Sparrow> they get help in their language.
[16:10] <Seeker`> is that it? just support?
[16:10] <Jack_Sparrow> yep
[16:11] <Seeker`> what about the smaller -us ones?
[16:11] <Jack_Sparrow> we have offtopic, which is where we let an upset user spin down until he is ready to stop ranting and address the problem
[16:12] <Seeker`> -uk is mainly an offtopic-ish channel
[16:12] <Jack_Sparrow> But none of the ubuntu-countries are "chating" rooms
[16:13] <Seeker`> but there are relatively few countries with their main language as english?
[16:13] <Jack_Sparrow> Perhaps it needs a new name
[16:13] <Seeker`> #ubuntu-not-uk?
[16:14] <Seeker`> what is wrong with #ubuntu-uk? Being the UK loco, i think it is a relevant channel name
[16:14] <Jack_Sparrow> I dont.. but we will see what everyone else thinks
[16:14] <Seeker`> what part of #ubuntu-uk is not relevant?
[16:15] <Jack_Sparrow> The fact that it is not a support room
[16:15] <Seeker`> "Ever since the birth of computers, enthusiasts and fans around the world have collected together in garages, universities and pubs to talk about their interest, learn from each other and help promote their interest. Combine this with the huge popularity of Ubuntu, and you have the Ubuntu LoCo project."
[16:15] <Seeker`> from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeams
[16:16] <Seeker`> LoCo teams aren't just there for support. We try to support people, but sometimes people ask questions that we do not know the answer to, or at times when there is noone is about, so we redirect them to #ubuntu
[16:17] <Seeker`> Jack_Sparrow: Or are you suggesting that we have to answer all questions asked in the channel, and that directing people to another resource is somehow "wrong"
[16:17] <Jack_Sparrow> You dont seem to understand what I am saying or you are simply ignoring my point.  Mkae a room for loco
[16:18] <Seeker`> AIUI, the naming convention for ubuntu Loco team channels is #ubuntu-<iso code>
[16:18] <Seeker`> which would be, in the case of the UK, #ubuntu-uk
[16:18] <Jack_Sparrow> I am done discussing this, do you have any further business in ubuntu-ops?
[16:19] <Seeker`> Jack_Sparrow: Yes. I am an op. 
[16:19]  * Seeker` points to his "+v"
[16:19] <Jack_Sparrow> what else did you need to discuss
[16:19] <Seeker`> I have nothing else to discuss at this time.
[16:19] <Jack_Sparrow> That was all I was asking
[16:24] <popey> there does seem to have been an increase in people asking for support in -uk, it's true
[16:24] <ikonia> popey: ubuntu's been a little busy of late and quite trollish I guess people try their loco
[16:25] <popey> I'm not sure thats the case
[16:25] <popey> we have had people tell us that #ubuntu is "too busy" sure
[16:25] <Seeker`> peopel seem to try -uk before #ubuntu
[16:25] <popey> and we have also had people tell us "I know I'll get an answer here" - because we have some knowledgeable people hanging around
[16:25] <ikonia> thats a different perspective
[16:25] <popey> and yes, some people come to -uk first
[16:26] <popey> problem is that the "locals" who lurk there often ask support questions - should we send them to #ubuntu too?
[16:26] <popey> we generally don't
[16:26] <ikonia> I thought one of the points of the loci's was to provide "local" support if they could
[16:27] <ikonia> is it a problem asking support questions from your local community ?
[16:27] <popey> but for someone who just arrives out of the blue and asks for help we generally say "!support" or "this isn't a support channel", but if we've got time often we help them anyway
[16:27] <popey> it is ikonia 
[16:27] <popey> but if people arrive in -uk, and then ask a question and get frustrated because their question isn't answered (perhaps when we are asleep) that can be annoying for them
[16:27] <popey> plus we get _non_ UK people arriving in -uk asking questions!
[16:28] <ikonia> yes, I can see that point of view
[16:28] <ikonia> but thats no different from #ubuntu in that people can only answer when they are awake
[16:28] <ikonia> if people get annoyed because someone doesn't can't answer the question, nothing you can do about that, 
[16:28] <Seeker`> but #ubuntu is "staffed" 24/7
[16:28] <ikonia> thats just "them"
[16:28] <popey> of course it's different
[16:29] <popey> http://ubuntu-uk.org/ircstats/
[16:29] <popey> ^ note we have periods where there is almost nobody about
[16:29] <popey> i appreciate that #ubuntu has busy and quiet times too, but people from all around the world hang out there
[16:29] <popey> loco teams generally have "locals" in the same timezone
[16:30] <popey> (yes I reliase some locos are large and cover many timezones, but we're talking about -uk here which spans exactly one timezone)
[16:30] <ikonia> popey: what would you like ?
[16:30] <popey> a peaceful and caring society
[16:30] <ikonia> sorry, I meant as options to help resolve the siutaiton your saying
[16:32] <popey> I really don't know what the answer is
[16:32] <ikonia> fair enough, it does seem a tricky situation
[16:32] <popey> I was merely echoing and expanding upon what Seeker` said because there seemed to be some misunderstanding
[16:33] <ikonia> ahh I missed Seeker` 's comments
[16:36] <Jack_Sparrow> Seeker basically wanted to change the factoid to say that -uk was not a support channel
[16:36] <ikonia> oh, an interesting balance, hard line to walk
[16:36] <popey> or perhaps have a new factoid
[16:37] <popey> !notsupport
[16:37] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about notsupport - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
[16:38] <popey> ubotu: !notsupport is This channel is not an official support channel. You should get a better response if you ask your question in the official support channel - #ubuntu.
[16:38] <ubotu> In #ubuntu-ops, popey said: ubotu: !notsupport is This channel is not an official support channel. You should get a better response if you ask your question in the official support channel - #ubuntu.
=== Mez__ is now known as Mez
[16:41] <Seeker`> Jack_Sparrow: I didnt say that it was not  asupport channel, I said that it was not a dedicated support channel
[16:41] <ikonia> Seeker`: I think thats a key word, dedicated, I've had some great support discussions on there, but there is a lot of off-support topic banter
[16:42] <ikonia> what is he official description of uk
[16:42] <Jack_Sparrow> It also seems they wont stop the ot to anser a question unless it is from one of their regulars
[16:43] <Seeker`> Jack_Sparrow: Have you spent any time in -uk?
[16:43] <Jack_Sparrow> Talked with a few who have...
[16:44] <Jack_Sparrow> they get bounced to ubuntu
[16:44] <Seeker`> so you are making statements about what we do in the channel without actually visiting...thats great
[16:44] <Jack_Sparrow> There are always the logs 
[16:45] <Seeker`> we try to help people if we can. There is only a certain amount of help we can give in a relatively small channel, espcially as people have work / studying to be doing - noone is obliged to spend their time giving support. If it looks like noone can solve the problem we send them off to #ubuntu
[16:45] <Jack_Sparrow> And I do speak from experience.. I get the people you bounce because you wont take the time
[16:46] <ikonia> perhaps - and this is a BIG perhaps, a few of the regulars from #ubuntu could hang out to handle support requests specificly in -uk or other locos ?
[16:46] <Seeker`> Jack_Sparrow: I'm sorry, I didn't realise that by being part of -uk I signed up to a contract to do x hours of support a week
[16:47] <Seeker`> if I know an answer, I will give it. If I'm not sure and noone else is saying anything, I will refer them to #ubuntu. Can you suggest a better procedure?
[16:47] <jussi01> Hmmm, I would prefer to see a factoid which said something like, This channel can be a bit quiet at times, you could also try #ubuntu the forums etc
[16:48] <jussi01> kind of like the !night factoid
[16:49] <Jack_Sparrow> robot: also, this isn't a support channel.
[16:49] <Tm_T> Jack_Sparrow: ?
[16:49] <Seeker`> Jack_Sparrow: Ok, that may have been worded incorrectly
[16:51] <Jack_Sparrow> <Seeker`> popey: I dont think it really matters - there isn't usually anything other than chat in here anyway
[16:51] <Jack_Sparrow> We can go on and on..
[16:52] <Seeker`> Jack_Sparrow: And? Its the truth, there bulk of what goes on in the channel is chat
[16:52] <Jack_Sparrow> I'll leave for others to decide, you know my opinion.
[16:52] <Seeker`> However, the issue is that we get questions that we cant answer, and all I wanted was a factoid that suggests they may get more hlep if they ask in #ubuntu
[16:53] <popey> 16:45:38 <+Jack_Sparrow> And I do speak from experience.. I get the people you bounce because you wont take the time
[16:53] <popey> wont or perhaps _cant_
[16:53] <Jack_Sparrow> My question is.. cant answer or cant be bothered to answer
[16:53] <popey> why are you being so harsh to us
[16:53] <popey> this is quite unnecessary
[16:54] <Jack_Sparrow> Bouncing people that go there for help is also harsh.
[16:54] <popey> no, it helps them
[16:54] <popey> helps them to get a channel that has a boatload of eyeballs on it
[16:54] <popey> we have a tiny channel with only a few people
[16:54] <popey> so would provide a lower quality of service to people asking questions
[16:55] <Jack_Sparrow> It seems you dont bother unless it is one of your mates..
[16:55] <popey> you're wrong
[16:55] <popey> someone is being helped in there right now
[16:55] <popey> someone we have never seen before
[16:56] <Jack_Sparrow> I  have the logs handy, I can go look for another example
[16:56] <popey> what are you trying to achieve with this Jack_Sparrow ?
[16:56]  * Seeker` feels he is being persecuted because he cannot answer every single support question asked of him instantly
[16:56] <popey> are you trying to highlight how bad the ubuntu-uk loco team is?
[16:57] <popey> take a look at the logs for last weekend. the channel was pretty quiet all day probably because the weather in the UK was good, so people were out busy with real life
[16:57] <Jack_Sparrow> NOt at all, there are some very talented people in the UK
[16:57] <popey> if people come along during that day they'd get little support
[16:57] <popey> and thats because they come to the wrong place
[16:58] <popey> we never refuse to help people on our mailing list because there's a good critical mass of people who can help
[16:58] <popey> so problems rarely go unanswered
[16:58] <popey> but on irc where people _expect_ fast responses, we just _can't_ do that
[16:58] <Jack_Sparrow> Seeker`: I have no problem with someone not knowing the answer and politely refer them... 
[16:58] <popey> Jack_Sparrow: what _do_ you have a problem with then?
[16:59] <Seeker`> Jack_Sparrow: Oh, and your quote from robot was quite heavily edited. You  missed out the " If you dont get a response here, try #ubuntu"
[16:59] <Seeker`> note the *if you dont get a response here*
[17:00] <popey> we almost _always_ say to people "this isn't a support channel, try #ubuntu" and then go on to help them anyway!
[17:00] <popey> Jack_Sparrow: what are you trying to achieve by critisising the way we operate our channel?
[17:04] <Jack_Sparrow> If you are refusing to support ubuntu, then why have ubuntu in the name.  But after looking through a fair number of pages you do more support than I was ginving you credit for
[17:05] <popey> _again_ we aren't refusing support, but i can see that is a semantic argument nobody will win. we merely refer people to someone they would be more _likely_ to get an answer
[17:06] <Jack_Sparrow> I do have personal experience from users that were not helped and in their opinion were just forwarded on without even being asked what the quesition was.
[17:07] <popey> what their question is is quite often irrelavent
[17:07] <popey> doesn't matter if it's a video card, network, desktop or whatever issue
[17:07] <popey> if nobody is around who can help, why bother getting their hopes up?
[17:08] <popey> I can see I am not going to convince you of what I know to be true, so I am going to give up in frustration.
[17:08] <Jack_Sparrow> It just gives the impression that that channel is a glorified boys club... and nothing to do with ubuntu
[17:08] <Seeker`> Jack_Sparrow: I know that if noone has said anything in the past couple of hours other than "hi" the chances of anyone getting support in the channel is low
[17:09] <mc44> Jack_Sparrow: maybe you should join a loco channel for a while before explaning to other people how they should be run
[17:09] <Jack_Sparrow> I will let others decide the issue.
[17:10] <popey> I have my irc window open all damn day. I am at work, where I am paid for doing a job. I can't just drop everything and help people, I just flat out can't
[17:10] <popey> no, I wont
[17:10] <popey> I refuse to help people when I need to put food on the table.
[17:10] <Tm_T> popey: agreed :))
[17:10] <popey> if you have a problem with that then I suggest you get back down to planet earth!
[17:10] <Jack_Sparrow> But you can take time during work to chat with mates?
[17:10] <popey> sometimes, yes
[17:10] <popey> sometimes, no
[17:11] <Jack_Sparrow> Thought so
[17:11] <popey> oh ffs
[17:11] <popey> you're trolling now
[17:11] <popey> look, I can type something and walk away for half an hour and my friends will still be there
[17:11] <Tm_T> Jack_Sparrow: I see your point, but, still, popey I mostly right, it might not be the most kindest way for the person needing help, but right it is
[17:11] <popey> someone who needs help usually needs things answered there and then
[17:11] <popey> they woudl think it rude of me to walk away 
[17:11] <Seeker`> Jack_Sparrow: Support is different, You can drop in and out of chat easily. Once you start helping someone you have comitted to helping them through to the end of the problem
[17:12] <popey> if I have a meeting at 12:00 at work I am _not_ going to start helping someone at 11:58
[17:12] <Tm_T> right
[17:12] <popey> yet I might say something to a friend at 11:59:59 before I walk away from my desk
[17:12] <popey> I fail to understand how you don't get that, especailly clearly being someone so familiar with irc
[17:12] <Seeker`> If I am talking to popey about something and he says brb and deosn't ansswer any more, thats fine because its just casual chat, but you can't just walk away from support and leave them dangling
[17:13] <popey> fact is that nobody can see what I am doing whilst I am sat here, none of you know what else is going on in my life whilst I am helping someone or indeed chatting to someone
[17:13] <popey> so to make massive assumptions as you are is just madness
[17:14] <Tm_T> Seeker`: "put your feet to electric cable, yes, that way, now take this cord, don't let it get too low or you die... oops, dinner, see you tomorrow, bye!" x)
[17:14] <Seeker`> Tm_T: :P
[17:14] <popey> reminds me of a sketch - I think it was Jasper Carrot..
[17:15] <Seeker`> its like putting a pint of beer on the back of each of a persons hands and walking away
[17:15] <popey> "I always seem to wake up to my alarm clock radio in the middle of sentences.... 'So if you live in birmingham and have bought some of these, don't eat them!'"
[17:15] <jdong> popey: lol
[17:15] <Jack_Sparrow> Personally I would rather see them kill off ubuntu-uk rather than have people go there thinking they will get support
[17:16] <popey> hahah
[17:16] <popey> Jack_Sparrow has spoken
[17:16] <popey> Get rid of the UK!
[17:16] <Seeker`> excuse me, but wtf
[17:16] <popey> how on _earth_ did you get ops with that attitude?
[17:16] <popey> "Your channel is worthless, it must die"
[17:16] <popey> *boggle*
[17:16] <mc44> Jack_Sparrow: them? also, you know theres just about a loco channel for every US state?
[17:16] <nalioth> gentlemen. let's rein in the horses
[17:17] <Jack_Sparrow> yep
[17:17] <popey> nalioth: fair enough
[17:17] <Tm_T> nalioth: horses? where? I'm hungry!
[17:17] <Jack_Sparrow> Taco Bell
[17:18] <nalioth> Jack_Sparrow: nah, horsemeat is too expensive for them.  they use soymeat mostly
[17:18]  * popey feels a blog post coming on
[17:18] <Jack_Sparrow> mcc44 Oh, and too funny comparing the entire UK to a US state
[17:19] <mc44> Jack_Sparrow: you know california has about the population of the UK?
[17:19] <Jack_Sparrow> Not for long, two huge earthquales yesterday
[17:24] <ikonia> guys heads up on randon_nick in #ubuntu as a possible ban dodger
[17:24] <ikonia> random_nickname sorry 
=== Mez_ is now known as Mez
=== AndrewB is now known as foodoo
=== foodoo is now known as AndrewB
[17:29] <Jack_Sparrow> one sec
[17:58] <jpatrick> ArM-eye thrown out of #k
[18:00] <ubotu> nosrednaekim called the ops in #kubuntu ()
[18:01] <nalioth> jpatrick: you kicked him for a greeting?
[18:01] <jpatrick> nalioth: he's that guy^
[18:02]  * ikonia is "the man" 
[18:03] <jpatrick> nalioth: he's spammed #k, -meeting, and -devel now 
[18:03] <nalioth> jpatrick: as arm-eye or other ?
[18:03] <jpatrick> nalioth: yes
[18:04] <Mez> nalioth, it's alpaco - he's been doing it for about a week now
[18:37] <ikonia> heads up on doris - looks like a bot offender "ciao !list !list !list /part" patton
[18:38] <jussi01> ikonia: yeah, in #k also
[18:38] <jussi01> ikonia: looks like he/she was looking for the italian channel. 
[18:38] <ikonia> been in #ubuntu under differnt nicks a few time
[18:38] <ikonia> ok
[18:39] <ikonia> normal pattern is to try to batter the bot
[18:39] <jussi01> I gave !it and he/she went away
[18:39] <ikonia> ahhh good
[18:39] <jussi01> :)
[18:39] <ikonia> gone out of ubuntu too
[18:46] <PriceChild> popey, Seeker` just read the backlog.....
[18:47] <PriceChild> Thankyou Gary.
[18:48] <PriceChild> Jack_Sparrow, I've just read the backlog in this channel.
[18:48] <PriceChild> I'm unsure what the hell just happenned?!
[18:48] <Jack_Sparrow> yes, quite a session
[18:49] <Jack_Sparrow> My side.. simple
[18:49] <Jack_Sparrow> I had had a couple of people that went to the uk room for support and were rudely bounced without even getting to ask their questiom
[18:49] <PriceChild> LoCo channels are for LoCos. This is whatever they want. ie discussing events etc. etc. Many LoCos do support because their language is not English.
[18:50] <PriceChild> rudely? #ubuntu is the official support channel... and its in English?
[18:50] <Jack_Sparrow> Understood... but they felt they were treated pooorly
[18:50] <Tm_T> Jack_Sparrow: how they got treated poorly then?
[18:51] <Jack_Sparrow> and felt it reflected badly upon ubuntu in general.  How many ubuntu-countries do not provide support
[18:51] <PriceChild> * Topic for #ubuntu-uk is: Welcome to #ubuntu-uk! http://ubuntu-uk.org | This channel is logged | Ubuntu FAQ: http://help.ubuntu.com/community CommonQuestions | Pastebin http://pastebin.ubuntu-uk.org/ | Next Meeting TBA | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/IdeasPool |  For official support channel please use #ubuntu  | Be nice or i.u2701u263b.eu
[18:51] <PriceChild> Its a bit rude to join a channel and not read the topic?
[18:51] <Tm_T> PriceChild: it is
[18:52] <nalioth> how many new users even are aware of a topic?
[18:52] <Tm_T> not many, so polite way is to tell them nicely the existence
[18:52] <Jack_Sparrow> How many people did we have to tell about flash althought it was in the topic
[18:52] <PriceChild> its the first thing they see upon joining a channel... if they don't read it then they get told again?
[18:53] <PriceChild> The point is... what is in the topic *is* the channel policy.
[18:53] <Tm_T> anyway, if people are directed politely to correct channel, who poorly treated then?
[18:53] <PriceChild> It sounds like no-one at the time knew the answer... so they were redirected?
[18:53] <Jack_Sparrow> We had the situation yesterday where we had a ubuntu-room that was disrespectful and the room was removed..
[18:53] <Jack_Sparrow> emma is the case in point
[18:54] <jussi01> we have the !topic factoid
[18:55] <PriceChild> I don't think that is a good analogy Jack_Sparrow.
[18:55] <PriceChild> #ubuntu-uk aren't trolls.
[18:55] <Jack_Sparrow> understood.
[18:56] <Jack_Sparrow> How many ubuntu-(list any country ) room do not provide support
[18:56] <PriceChild> No idea.
[18:56] <Gary> but we do Jack_Sparrow often, just not all the time
[18:57] <PriceChild> Normally the primary channel... like #ubuntu-es or #ubuntu-pt, but not countries speaking the same language for example.
[18:57] <Jack_Sparrow> gary, understood, I looked at the logs.
[18:57] <PriceChild> The point is... they're not going to push people away if they know the answer and have the time.
[18:57] <Jack_Sparrow> oh but they do
[18:57] <PriceChild> But it people want to give support and have the time, surely they're going to help in #ubuntu?
[18:57] <Jack_Sparrow> they said so
[18:57] <Tm_T> Jack_Sparrow: log?
[18:57] <Jack_Sparrow> they said they dont even want to know the question
[18:58] <Jack_Sparrow> log of this room earlier
[18:58] <PriceChild> because they don't have the time/don't want to help?
[18:58] <Tm_T> just arguing without the real evidence is pointless
[18:58] <PriceChild> fair enough? #ubuntu is the official support channel and its mentioned in the topic
[18:58] <Jack_Sparrow> Tm_T: their admission should be adequate
[18:58] <PriceChild> I don't see anything wrong with them admitting that.
[18:59] <Jack_Sparrow> I tried to drop the subject repeatedly
[18:59] <Tm_T> Jack_Sparrow: sure, but when we are talking about small finesse, it's not enough to say "yes" or "no"
[18:59] <PriceChild> Not from what I've read.
[18:59] <Tm_T> PriceChild: hug me
[19:00] <PriceChild> !pony | Tm_T No you can't have a hug,
[19:00] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about pony - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
[19:00] <Jack_Sparrow> I left the channel several times to try and let it drop
[19:00] <PriceChild> :O
[19:00] <Tm_T> Jack_Sparrow: anyway, I see your point very well, but, if they were not treated poorly but just like to make noise out of it, well, meh
[19:00] <PriceChild> Ok well then lets leave it there.
[19:00] <Gary> I just typed a long ramble, but it is I feel not needed.
[19:00] <PriceChild> Gary, was it in the countryside?
[19:00] <Tm_T> Gary: shove it to my backyard
[19:00] <Jack_Sparrow> I just finished 4 miles along the lake to cool off
[19:01] <jpatrick> For the record: Topic for #debian-uk: This *REALLY* is not a *Debian* support channel. | <will-h> Gentoo is, I'm afraid, simply an OS for child-molestors. | http://wiki.earth.li/FOSDEM2008
[19:01] <Gary> 4 miles?  walking/cycling/running/flying?
[19:01] <no0tic> sorry for join/quit spamming
[19:01] <Jack_Sparrow> Dragged by Akita
[19:01] <PriceChild> no0tic, you will be ;)
[19:01]  * Tm_T hugs Jack_Sparrow 
[19:01] <Gary> akita = doggy?
[19:01] <Jack_Sparrow> Sorry for all the hassle..
[19:02] <Jack_Sparrow> yep cute dog.. BIG dog
[19:03] <Tm_T> Jack_Sparrow: thanks for all the hassle
[19:03] <Jack_Sparrow> I will not say another word on the subject, if I hear a complaint about it I will simply refer them upline
[19:03] <Tm_T> :))
[19:04] <Gary>  [monty python] I wish to make a complaint [/monty python]
[19:05] <Jack_Sparrow> Take my wife ..please.. Rodney Dangerfield
[19:07] <PriceChild> I always look forward to each xkcd... but this one... :(
[19:07] <Jack_Sparrow> What is xkcd?
[19:07] <PriceChild> http://xkcd.org/
[19:08] <Jack_Sparrow> eww
[19:10] <PriceChild> Jack_Sparrow, look at the previous one quickly to cheer you up
[19:10] <Jack_Sparrow> Much better...
[19:11] <Jack_Sparrow> My Akita has killed every squirrel in the area..
[19:12] <Gary> what make and model is your dog?
[19:12] <Tm_T> good dog!
[19:12] <Jack_Sparrow> When she was a pup I almost gave her away, I have never seen a more viscious animal in my life
[19:12] <Jack_Sparrow> Squirrels are just rats with good PR
[19:12] <Tm_T> Jack_Sparrow: you haven't seen me then
[19:13] <Jack_Sparrow> Tm_T: we can hit the bars together, 6'3 265 here
[19:13] <Tm_T> Jack_Sparrow: what numbers are those?
[19:13] <Jack_Sparrow> I lie.. 281
[19:13] <Jack_Sparrow> my height and weight
[19:14] <Gary> height in feet/inches and weight in pounds
[19:14] <Tm_T> ...any possibility to have them in SI format?
[19:14] <Jack_Sparrow> I was having a fat day last wek at the doc and I had my shoes on.. 281.
[19:15] <Jack_Sparrow> Call it 275 wearing nothing but pride
[19:15] <Tm_T> Jack_Sparrow: and size doesn't matter
[19:15] <Tm_T> I can still eat you without my half-rotten hands
[19:16] <Jack_Sparrow> :)  yea, but you will scream when I claw my way out your other end
[19:16] <Tm_T> no I won't
[19:17] <Jack_Sparrow> Are you trying to make a point here.. 
[19:18] <Tm_T> yes, though it ran away
[19:18] <Jack_Sparrow> not to worry, I'll buy you a beer one of these days
[19:33] <PriceChild> Hey nickrud.
[19:33] <nickrud> Hi PriceChild 
[19:54] <ubotu> Cpudan80 called the ops in #ubuntu (Bladder)
[19:55] <nalioth> klined
[19:56] <PriceChild> thanks nalioth 
[19:56] <PriceChild> nickrud, i'll add you to !ops
[19:56] <nickrud> PriceChild: thanks.
[19:56] <Tm_T> iu
[19:56] <Tm_T> glad I'm not in it
[19:56] <Jack_Sparrow> Good choice PriceChild..
[19:57]  * Tm_T hides
[19:57] <PriceChild> Tm_T, do you have access?
[19:57] <Tm_T> I do
[19:57] <nickrud> trust me, I'm gonna be very slow on the trigger for quite some time
[19:57] <PriceChild> you do... Tm_T do you want putting on ops?
[19:57] <Tm_T> PriceChild: I have !ops call in hillight
[19:57] <Tm_T> -l
[19:57] <PriceChild> Tm_T, you didn't answer the question :)
[19:57] <PriceChild> nickrud, here's something special for you:
[19:58] <PriceChild> nickrud, http://www.kaarsemaker.net/software/chanserv/
[19:58] <Tm_T> thus said, no, I don't think it's needed, I get calls anyway when I'm there :))
[19:58] <nickrud> PriceChild: talked to nalioth last night about useful stuff, got that already :)
[19:58] <PriceChild> ah okies :)
[19:59] <nickrud> PriceChild: anything else you think will be useful, or just general guidelines that haven't made it to the wiki yet?
[19:59] <Tm_T> just remember this, I am the Overseer
[19:59]  * Tm_T hides
[19:59] <PriceChild> nickrud, you've read the operator guidelines right?
[19:59]  * nickrud wonders when dennis changed his nick
[20:00] <jpatrick> PriceChild: man, what is with this init stuff
[20:00] <PriceChild> jpatrick, pardon?
[20:00] <nickrud> PriceChild: yes, first thing. 
[20:00] <jpatrick> PriceChild: in #u
[20:00] <PriceChild> oh they're still talking abut it
[20:01] <PriceChild> nickrud, that's about it tbh, most things are now automated what with the floodbots and all.
[20:01] <PriceChild> nickrud, do you know the ubuntu irc council/
[20:01] <nickrud> PriceChild: just the general stuff. Looked it up on launchpad as well
[20:04] <nickrud> so far, the only annoying thing is seeing all the part/join messages again. Fiddling with colors for contrast will help I guess
[20:06] <PriceChild> I like xchat's defaults tbh
[20:06] <PriceChild> the light green and brown don't stick out.
[20:08] <sharperguy> Anyone mind telling me how long I've been banned for from #ubuntu?
[20:08] <nalioth> nickrud: you'll seen learn to ignore the joins/parts/quits except when looking for info
[20:09] <PriceChild> One moment please sharperguy.
[20:12] <PriceChild> sharperguy, 3 days.
[20:12] <PriceChild> since you've been banned
[20:13] <sharperguy> What I meant to ask is, how long will the ban last?
[20:14] <PriceChild> We don't usually put definitive lengths on bans. They've either removed once the banlist is full, or after an appeal if we can see a change in attitude.
[20:15] <sharperguy> Hmm well I usually try to help people in #ubuntu while I'm there asking a question myself if possible
[20:15] <PriceChild> sharperguy, do you remember what you were banned for?
[20:15] <sharperguy> I was just feeling depressed and typed an offensive word that day and nothingelse
[20:15] <sharperguy> and by nothing else i mean thats what I typed, I don't mean that it wasnt bad
[20:16] <PriceChild> right after a flooding attack
[20:16] <sharperguy> was it?
[20:16] <PriceChild> just a minute or so yes
[20:18] <sharperguy> Oh I remember someone saying something about it actually but I wasn't really relating it to that
=== Amaranth_ is now known as Amaranth
[20:50] <PriceChild> LjL, any chance of stopping the floodbots muting ubotu?
[20:51] <PriceChild> LjL, lag just caused all his messages come through at once.
[20:52] <LjL> PriceChild: well, that happens sometimes, but when it happens should it not be muted?
[20:52] <LjL> i muted it manually sometimes when that happened
[20:52] <PriceChild> I'm not sure, in the case just then it wasn't necessary imo.
[20:52] <PriceChild> I would have thought if it gets bad, ubotu would flood off?
[20:53] <LjL> that's pretty unlikely
[20:54] <LjL> PriceChild: however ubotu sent just 4 lines didn't it
[20:54] <LjL> ah i know why that is
[20:55] <nalioth> two major servers are about to be rebooted.
[20:55] <nalioth> in five minutes or so
[20:55] <LjL> oh wonderful
[21:00] <LjL> on-join in #ubuntu: [22:00:20] [Notice] -L3W1S- Welcome To #ubuntu LjL-Kubrick! To see what bot modes are on, please type !status.
[21:01] <jussi01> huh?
[21:01] <LjL> a bot
[21:02] <jussi01> oh. got you
[21:08] <nalioth> nixternal: you about?
[21:11] <LjL> nalioth: rebooting or what?
[21:12]  * Tm_T dies
[21:13] <nalioth> LjL: something like that
[21:13] <PriceChild> lol
[21:13] <LjL> ... anytime soon?
[21:13] <nalioth> hmm
[21:13] <nalioth> should have been 15 minutes ago
[21:14] <LjL> wasn't there any split
[21:14] <nalioth> maybe it will be in 9 hours and 45 minutes
[21:14] <LjL> still problems with utc haven't you :P
[21:17] <nalioth> no, i was going off a statement of "reboot in 10"
[21:17] <nalioth> so if it wasn't 10 minutes, it must be 10 hour
[21:23] <soren> Hi, guys. I'm trying to take over #ubuntu-virt. The current owner seems to be MIA (chanserv says he registered it over a year ago and never came back).
[21:24] <Seeker`> does everyone get noticed before a server reboot?
[21:26] <nalioth> Seeker`: only those users on the affected server
[21:27] <nalioth> soren: the chanown has not been gone long enough for us to drop the channel
[21:27] <nalioth> soren: chanserv does not keep track of users, nickserv does
[21:27] <soren> 22:10:37 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)-      Contact: fernando, last seen: 1 year 1 week 2 days (9h 23m 12s) ago
[21:27] <soren> I just thought it asked nickserv for that info.
[21:28] <soren> So we're stuck with a channel that is outside our control? I guess it's ok if that's the policy, I'd just like to have a straight answer if that's the case.
[21:28] <Seeker`> nalioth: but isn't everyone affected due to the netsplit that happens?
[21:28] <soren> ..and I'll come up with an #ubuntu-somethingelsethatmakessense
[21:29] <soren> nalioth: Do you have access to fernando's contact info? The fernando that's currently on is clearly not the right one.
[21:30] <nalioth> soren: what is #ubuntu-virt, anyway?
[21:30] <soren> Ubuntu channel about virtualisation
[21:31] <nalioth> ah yes, the reboots were scheduled for 30 minutes ago, LjL 
[21:31] <nalioth> something is delaying them
[21:33] <PriceChild> soren, to do with development or support?
[21:33] <soren> Both.
[21:34] <nalioth> soren: is there a team for this?
[21:34] <soren> Yes.
[21:34] <soren> unsurprisingly named ubuntu-virt
[21:34] <soren> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-virt for your clicking pleasure.
[21:35] <soren> I'm the "Ubuntu Virtualisation guy", and I've no clue who fernando is...
[21:36] <nalioth> most likely a channel squatter
[21:36] <soren> Or a well-meaning user that just didn't stick around. Don't know (and don't care much).
[21:37] <soren> I suppose that might fall in the "channel squatter" category as well.
[21:37] <soren> meh
[21:37] <soren> Hmm... Taking over #ubuntu-server was much easier than this :)
[21:47] <soren> Anything else I can do?
[22:02] <ogre> hey dccfix bug fixed. test plz
[22:02] <PriceChild> ogre, please read the instructions in the topic of #ubuntu-read-topic
[22:02] <ogre> PriceChild:  I did
[22:02] <ogre> i changed to port 8001\
[22:02] <PriceChild> ogre, read the next bit please.
[22:03] <ogre> the "test me" part?
[22:03] <PriceChild> mhmm
[22:03] <ogre> i did that
[22:03] <ogre> no luck
[22:03] <PriceChild> ogre, you didn't try it.
[22:03] <ogre> PriceChild:  yes i did
[22:03] <PriceChild> ogre, please try again
[22:03] <ogre> let me retry
[22:06] <nalioth> soren: has #ubuntu-server gotten too busy?
[22:07] <ompaul> ogre, please take this channel off your auto join the bot can deal with you correctly you are not doing what it says in the topic for that channel
[22:07] <soren> nalioth: Not per se.
[22:07] <soren> Hang on, in a meeting.
[22:10] <ogre> http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/50/screenshotmk5.png like this?
[22:11] <ompaul> ogre, that looks right you need to leave the server when you do that
[22:11] <ogre> ompaul:  i did twice :(
[22:11] <ompaul> ogre, let me check it 
[22:11] <PriceChild> ogre, close xchat completely, then try again
[22:11] <ogre> ahhh i bet thats it
[22:11] <ogre> 1 sec guys. thanks alot :)
[22:11] <nalioth> ogre: that is it.
[22:11] <ompaul> ogre, you need to depart and rejoin that is what that means 
[22:12] <PriceChild> if you edit that tab, just getting disconnected, it tries to reconnect using original settings
[22:12] <ogre> makes sense
[22:12] <ompaul> ogre, have a nice day
[22:12] <ogre> I just wanted to say ubuntu changed my life before I go. thanks alot guys
[22:13] <PriceChild> I thought xchat had had that changed in defaults... someone said yesterday it wasn't either... *looks for a bug report*
[22:13] <Pici> man.... that is one ugly theme.
[22:13] <ompaul> so why still an ogre ;-) but anyway I digress
[22:13]  * ompaul sents Pici to work in a factoid factory
[22:13] <ompaul> :)
[22:13]  * ompaul runs
[22:14] <PriceChild> That's xchat-gnome that he's using isn't it.
[22:14] <soren> nalioth: There are a few upstreams that want to help out. I'd like to have a channel free of all the other server stuff to annoy them as little as possible. Also, several upstream virtualisation channels get a lot of ubuntu questions, and I'd like to direct them to #ubuntu-virt instead of #ubuntu-server. This *will* make #ubuntu-server too busy.
[22:14] <PriceChild> But I'm pretty sure I checked xchat's source the other day and that had 6667 as the default so I'll file a bug against both... might even try and submit a patch.
[22:15] <ompaul> PriceChild, is it really worth it - if a user has bad kit they get sorted in 9 out of 10 cases?
[22:15] <ompaul> PriceChild, does 8001 break dc/c on people
[22:16] <Pici> It shouldnt. iirc, dc.c uses other ports.
[22:16] <PriceChild> ompaul, a lot of the other clients have been "fixed", and is dcc really necessary? This doesn't even cause any adverse effects does it?
[22:17] <ompaul> PriceChild, it is very useful if you are me and topli and want to discuss documents and research - which as certain topics will testify to we both do on a semi regular basis
[22:17] <nalioth> ompaul: an actual dcc event doesn't use any standard irc ports
[22:17] <soren> nalioth: Besides, virtualisation is not a server specific thing at all.
[22:20] <ompaul> soren,  not server specific - I think that is a wrong argument, case in point I run massive servers with desktop software on them, which I then serve over xdmcp ... so are they desktops or servers ;-) 
[22:21] <soren> ompaul: I fail to see your point. nalioth (for whatever reason) asked if #ubuntu-server had gotten too busy.
[22:23] <ompaul> soren, I was just wondering (more as an aside than anything else) how it is not server specific, I always think of it as a server function
[22:24]  * soren is failing to see why he has to get dragged through this just because some dude registered a channel a year ago and then went on his merry way
[22:24] <soren> ompaul: People use it to run Windows if they need some apps that don't have linux counterparts.
[22:24] <soren> ompaul: for example.
[22:26] <soren> ompaul: That's not very serverlike at all, IMO.
[22:30] <ompaul> soren, I see what you are saying, I would content other wise, but that is a separate matter
[22:30] <soren> Or our QA people use it to verify bugs in older version of Ubuntu.
[22:31] <soren> ..or people could use it to test new versions of UBuntu before they upgrade..
[22:31] <soren> Gee, I sure wish there was a channel I could use where this would be on-topic... 
[22:33]  * soren is also failing to see how this can be anything but an open-and-shut case
[22:52] <Seeker`> was that the reboot?
[22:52] <PriceChild> Wooohooo we're -J
[22:53] <PriceChild> hmm that was a split rather than death :/
[22:55] <PriceChild> Seeker`, I "thought" that a reboot would cause a death, and so staggered rejoin rather than what looks like a netsplit above.
[22:56] <PriceChild> gah read those as bans, not removes
[22:57] <soren> Could you at least fill me in on what the problem seems to be? Does it need to be discussed in another forum? Are you blocked on someone else actually doing it? Do I need to prove that I have anything to do with Ubuntu's virtualisation efforts? Do I need to hunt down fernando? Should I just give up? I don't mind waiting if I just know what I'm waiting for.
[23:00] <PriceChild> soren, sorry for the delay. nalioth is currently away and he is the one able to change ownership of the channel.
[23:01] <ompaul> PriceChild, will I chance removing that ban?
[23:02] <PriceChild> ompaul, go +z first?
[23:02] <PriceChild> and +o
[23:02] <PriceChild> i don't see anything
[23:02] <ompaul> PriceChild, I will now unban that party - psicobra
[23:03] <PriceChild> soren, We will be able to make a decision when he returns. Sorry for the hassle.
[23:03] <soren> PriceChild: Thanks.
[23:13] <nosrednaekim> hey, could someone check if what _Freez_ just posted in #kubuntu is dangerous?
[23:13] <Seveas> nosrednaekim, paste it here please
[23:13] <Seveas> (i'm not in #k)
[23:13] <nosrednaekim> [18:11] <_FReeZ> sudo dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/mem will free up your RAM and speed up your running system, execute it before any memory-hungy program and benchmark how many times faster it runs
[23:13] <Seveas> kill that bastard
[23:13] <nosrednaekim> sounded bad to me...
[23:14] <Seveas> it's similar to sudo rm -rf :)
[23:14] <Seveas> though I think /dev/mem is protected from this in ubuntu nowadays
[23:14] <LjL> Seveas: well it's not that nefarious
[23:14] <nosrednaekim> write random stuff to memory?
[23:14] <LjL> still not particularly nice either
[23:14] <PriceChild> He just hit #ubunt
[23:14] <PriceChild> u
[23:14] <Seveas> nosrednaekim, all zero bytes
[23:14] <LjL> nosrednaekim: no, random would be /dev/urandom
[23:14] <nosrednaekim> ah.... well, same effect ;)
[23:15] <nosrednaekim> thanks
[23:15]  * PriceChild wonders if anything extra special could be done for him
[23:15] <Seveas> ps
[23:15] <Seveas> rm -rf /dir/with/4million/files
[23:15] <Seveas> takes a LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time
[23:15] <Seveas> talking serveral days already :)
[23:16] <Seeker`> Seveas: that is a long time
[23:17] <LjL> PriceChild: well, it's not like he wasn't in #gentoo as well
[23:18] <ompaul> tomaw, ^^ care to have achat 
[23:20] <tomaw> I can look
[23:20] <ompaul> ta
[23:25] <PriceChild> soren, /msg chanserv info #ubuntu-virt 
[23:26] <soren> PriceChild: Lovely. Thanks very much!
[23:28] <soren> PriceChild: Hm... Still no access.
[23:29] <PriceChild> soren, /msg chanserv identify #ubuntu-virt 
[23:29] <PriceChild> soren, /msg chanserv access #ubuntu-virt add soren 10
[23:29] <soren> PriceChild: Oh, clever. Thanks muchly.
[23:29] <PriceChild> eek
[23:29] <PriceChild> soren, change that to /msg chanserv access #ubuntu-virt add soren 30
[23:30] <PriceChild> will be more handy
[23:30] <LjL> PriceChild: not really. /cs identify is the sudo of freenode :)
[23:30] <soren> I went straight for the full monty and chose 49.
[23:30] <PriceChild> LjL, hehe maybe
[23:30] <LjL> well, *one* sudo of freenode