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from fork admin URL mailto fork admin URL on behalf of adam l beberg if the creator didnt say you could have it without paying it s theft so simple hell that s even in all the major holy books ran across a site which claimed to explain the original meaning of the ten commandments it seems some of those meanings have evolved a bit too in particular there was a claim that the commandment on stealing was actually specifically about man stealing selling a free man into slavery certainly the us southerners were particularly sensitive to the term man stealer in a way i didn t understand yep i know he said all holy books no i don t know if this site was blowing hot air it just read like someone had done their homework URL

this article from URL has been sent to you by khare URL texas pacific in addition to its multibillion dollar portfolio detailed below actually does invest in promising new companies not just turnarounds it s just that knownow is waaay to small of a part of their NUMBER NUMBERb portfolio so far rohit khare URL texas pacific goes where others fear to spend august NUMBER NUMBER by riva d atlas and edward wong it was one of the first calls david n siegel placed when he became chief executive of the beleaguered us airways last march seeking advice on how to hammer out a leaner and meaner business plan keep his planes flying and renegotiate costly contracts with the unions he flipped through his files and found the number for the texas pacific group an investment firm headed by david bonderman a former civil rights lawyer with a reputation for fixing problem companies mr siegel once a top executive at continental airlines had watched texas pacific s partners turn an investment of NUMBER million in the airline made three years after it filed for bankruptcy in NUMBER into a profit of more than NUMBER million and they had made nearly as much on their stake in america west which filed for bankruptcy in NUMBER that search for advice turned into an offer why not let texas pacific have a role in us airways revival asked richard schifter the texas pacific executive whom mr siegel reached in june mr siegel called mr schifter again and days before us airways announced its plans to file for bankruptcy two weeks ago but after it had negotiated about NUMBER million in concessions with its unions texas pacific based in fort worth and san francisco agreed to kick in NUMBER million as part of a NUMBER million loan to keep the company operating during bankruptcy it also agreed to buy NUMBER million of stock or NUMBER percent of the company and take NUMBER of NUMBER seats on the board if us airways emerges from bankruptcy unless another investor surfaces with a better offer one of the reasons we were interested is few other folks were said james coulter a partner at texas pacific in an interview after the bankruptcy filing there aren t many people around with the stomach or the knowledge to delve into the airline industry texas pacific which manages NUMBER billion thrives by buying businesses no one else wants mr coulter and mr bonderman made their names during the recession of the early NUMBER s with investments in continental and america west the firm s hallmark is to take an active hand in shaping companies sometimes ousting poor managers and tapping its extensive network of contacts for talented replacements now the partners are again looking for trouble in the last year alone texas pacific has announced or completed six acquisitions most in unloved industries like semiconductors reinsurance and airlines just last month it announced plans to buy burger king which has been losing market share for NUMBER NUMBER billion it is also bidding for bankgesellschaft berlin a large and troubled bank the most creative and potentially lucrative of these deals could be texas pacific s acquisition last november of memc electronic materials a semiconductor company for NUMBER yes just NUMBER in cash it will also guarantee a NUMBER million bank loan in the last few years most firms that specialize in leveraged buyouts the use of junk bonds bank loans and other borrowings to buy or take big stakes in companies have been largely inactive falling stock prices have made managements reluctant to sell cheaply companies that are for sale have tangled finances or face a cash squeeze texas pacific is different this is a terrific environment for them said stephen schwarzman chief executive of the blackstone group which also specializes in buyouts mark attanasio a managing director at trust company of the west which has invested with texas pacific said most other buyout firms want to buy companies that are growing you don t see many guys wanting to take on operational fixes like most other buyout firms texas pacific tries to keep its inner workings private its partners rarely grant interviews and its web site is perpetually under construction mr bonderman mr coulter and william price the third founding partner declined to be interviewed for this article mr bonderman NUMBER is known for his rumpled shirts and bright patterned socks he likes argyle socks and they tend to fall down around his ankles said henry miller an investment banker who advises troubled companies early in his career when he was a washington lawyer mr bonderman argued a case in court wearing a brown velvet suit when a texas pacific deal is being negotiated he is known for obsessively staying in touch even when he is trekking in places like pakistan nepal and most recently bhutan whenever i see a long unfamiliar phone number pop up on my caller i d i know it s david calling said one investment banker who often works with mr bonderman mr bonderman made his reputation in the NUMBER s as the chief investment officer for robert bass the texas oilman mr bonderman enriched mr bass a second time by making early bets in industries like cable television and taking stakes in troubled companies like american savings loan which had been seized by the government over nearly a decade mr bonderman s picks earned an average annual return of NUMBER percent for mr bass in NUMBER mr bonderman struck out on his own with mr coulter a former lehman brothers banker who had also worked for mr bass they teamed up later that year with mr price a veteran of ge capital capital and bain company a consulting firm to form texas pacific the three men have complementary skills investment bankers and other deal makers said mr bonderman is the master strategist and mr coulter is good at structuring deals and the detailed management of the firm s purchases mr price often recruits managers and advises on operational issues david is very much the optimist very much the deal maker said greg brenneman a former president of continental jim is very much a counterbalance to david he will sit back and ask the tough questions he will approach investments a little bit more skeptically than david does by the end of the NUMBER s texas pacific was well established in deal making it easily raised NUMBER NUMBER billion from pension funds and other investors in early NUMBER to celebrate their war chest the firm s partners rented san francisco s city hall and hired the b NUMBER s to play at a party but as the stock market began to tumble texas pacific hesitated for a NUMBER month stretch the partners made no deals they checked out some of the biggest corporate blowups including adelphia xerox and global crossing but stayed away finding the prices and the quality of the businesses untenable instead texas pacific began to hastily exit some existing investments taking more than NUMBER billion in profits during that stretch they started to cash out early in the cycle said mario giannini chief executive of hamilton lane a money management firm some of whose clients are texas pacific investors the good times of the late NUMBER s were not ideal for texas pacific it struggled to find downtrodden companies that needed its help but texas pacific did manage to spot a few diamonds in the rough it revived oxford health plans the health maintenance organization that nearly collapsed in the mid NUMBER s almost doubling its money after bringing in new managers and upgrading computer systems in NUMBER it made a NUMBER million investment in ducati motor the italian motorcycle maker whose profits have since more than quadrupled but texas pacific also stumbled usually when it bought at the top of the market texas pacific s NUMBER million investment in the j crew group the clothing retailer for which it paid a steep price of NUMBER times cash flow in NUMBER has been a disappointment so has its NUMBER purchase of bally the shoe maker which has suffered from lower demand for luxury goods texas pacific also lost more than NUMBER million on zilog a semiconductor company and favorite brands a candy maker both of which filed for bankruptcy some of these investments have taken a toll on the firm s performance texas pacific is still selling off holdings in two investment funds it raised over the last decade the first fund a NUMBER million portfolio raised in NUMBER and including investments made through march NUMBER should return more than NUMBER percent according to one texas pacific investor but its second fund NUMBER NUMBER billion raised in NUMBER could return less than half that this investor estimated since the firm had less time to take profits on these investments before the stock market sank but because texas pacific has not sold many of its holdings in the second fund profits on these investments could rebound it is hoping for example that with new management in place j crew will turn around as the economy rebounds in any case one competitor said their returns look pretty good when you consider that some other funds won t return any capital to investors but with the weak economy throwing many companies into trouble texas pacific seems poised to repeat its earlier success the investor said they should do exceptionally well he said texas pacific has a distinct style if not formula it relies on talented self sufficient managers to restructure troubled companies preferring to remain hands off except for surveillance from the boardroom when necessary it replaces managers less than a year after continental emerged from bankruptcy for example mr bonderman watched with frustration as his old friend robert r ferguson the chief executive led it to the edge of another trip to bankruptcy court continental s board where mr bonderman was chairman then brought in gordon m bethune an executive at boeing and in october NUMBER he replaced mr ferguson as chief executive mr bethune quickly did a top to bottom overhaul of the company and is now considered a great turnaround artist of the industry the biggest conflict i ve ever seen was with bob ferguson said clark onstad a former general counsel for the federal aviation administration in describing the thinking of mr bonderman whom he has known since the NUMBER braniff bankruptcy he chose bethune over his longtime friend ferguson because he thought bethune would do a better job at america west texas pacific initiated an even more extensive management overhaul this time the charge was led by mr coulter and mr schifter both directors w douglas parker the current chief executive flew to mr coulter s home in san francisco to interview for the job of chief financial officer they talked for hours and mr parker said the two men quickly realized they had somewhat kindred spirits the board replaced most senior managers at america west except william franke the chief executive who stepped down last september his restructuring plan had made the airline profitable a year and a half before it emerged from bankruptcy in august NUMBER texas pacific owns just NUMBER percent of america west worth about NUMBER NUMBER million but those are controlling shares and the group holds more than NUMBER percent of the votes these are not passive investors nor am i said donald l sturm a denver businessman who serves on continental s board with mr bonderman and mr price you re active your money is at stake your reputation is at stake after overseeing managers who worked successfully with unions at continental and america west texas pacific has a good reputation with labor that was one reason us airways was interested in a texas pacific investment said chris chiames a spokesman for the airline mr siegel wanted an investor who would be as labor friendly as possible mr chiames said but us airways can still entertain other bids this fall and marvin davis the billionaire investor from los angeles has expressed interest texas pacific s investment in burger king made with goldman sachs and bain capital was announced after two years of discussions among texas pacific s partners and the chain s franchisees even before the company which had been owned by diageo the liquor company was put up for sale said julian josephson chairman of the national franchisee association which represents most burger king franchisees we liked what they had to say about the human component of the businesses they buy mr josephson said many other owners he added are dismissive of labor at burger king texas pacific will also be working with an executive it knows burger king s chief executive is john dasburg the former chief executive of northwest airlines who met mr bonderman and his partners when northwest bought out their stake in continental in NUMBER unlike most buyout firms texas pacific remains enamored with the technology industry despite the failure of so many start ups the last two years it has focused on the semiconductor industry which like the airline industry is highly cyclical so far though results have been mixed the firm s NUMBER acquisition of the paradyne corporation which makes equipment for high speed internet connections has been a huge success texas pacific split it in two and took both parts public in the late NUMBER s selling most of its stakes for NUMBER times its investment but a much larger investment its NUMBER million acquisition of zilog the chip maker in NUMBER was made just before the economic crisis in asia caused chip prices to plummet zilog filed for bankruptcy last year texas pacific is still hoping for a turnaround at a third company on semiconductor which it acquired for NUMBER NUMBER billion three years ago it invested NUMBER million more last year its latest gamble on the industry the NUMBER deal for memc may prove the most lucrative the cost of mailing the payment to e on based in d sseldorf germany was actually more than the acquisition one executive close to the deal said texas pacific and its partners in the deal trust company of the west and leonard green partners agreed to guarantee a NUMBER million revolving line of credit texas pacific also assumed NUMBER million worth of debt most of which it swapped for more stock in the company they did a good job of timing the acquisition said nabeel gareeb the company s chief executive who noted that in the last quarter memc reported its first profit since the fourth quarter of NUMBER but texas pacific s interest in airlines is clearly sizable besides its involvement in continental america west and us airways the company plans to buy gate gourmet the catering business of the bankrupt swissair group two years ago texas pacific started a web based discount ticket service called hotwire it put up most of the NUMBER million in seed money then persuaded six airlines to invest with it said karl peterson the chief executive hotwire instead of asking consumers to bid on tickets as priceline does shows the cheapest ticket on its web site but does not reveal the exact flight and travel time until after the sale the contraction of the new economy has undoubtedly hurt hotwire which is privately owned mr peterson said that the company was still unprofitable but that texas pacific remains committed to it last spring mr peterson met mr bonderman in aspen to talk about hotwire and to go snowboarding mr bonderman seemed perfectly willing to accompany hotwire down the steep internet chute but he does have his limits on risk mr peterson discovered before going down the mountain mr bonderman strapped on a helmet URL how to advertise for information on advertising in e mail newsletters or other creative advertising opportunities with the new york times on the web please contact onlinesales URL or visit our online media kit at URL for general information about URL write to help URL copyright NUMBER the new york times company URL

remember i didn t say it was necessarily a good source just that it looked good the site was URL my memory of what they said was accurate i do not have the competence to defend what they said james tauber s response indicates a breadth of knowledge i can t match original message from james tauber mailto jtauber URL sent sunday august NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER am to johnhall evergo net fork URL subject re a biblical digression on sat NUMBER aug NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER john hall johnhall evergo net said ran across a site which claimed to explain the original meaning of the ten commandments it seems some of those meanings have evolved a bit too by meanings have evolved do you or they mean that the hebrew words have changed meaning or that our understanding of the hebrew words have changed or do they posit a pre mosaic form of the laws that had evolved by time of the pentateuch in particular there was a claim that the commandment on stealing was actually specifically about man stealing selling a free man into slavery this seems bogus to me a quick check of the text indicates the the hebrew word in question is ganav which elsewhere in the pentateuch eg gen NUMBER NUMBER is used to mean steal silver and gold amongst other things in july NUMBER i made the following comment in response to a similar claim about the real meaning of one of the ten commandments the translations since cause problems at each successive remove we have the original language versions though so this is not an issue i m sure most everyone is familiar with the argument that the meaning of the commandment is thou shalt not murder rather than kill this has nothing to do with successive translations it is based on our knowledge of the meaning of the hebrew word ratsach most modern translations i ve seen translate it murder but elsewhere the word is used of an animal killing a human something for which most english speakers wouldn t use the word murder URL james james tauber jtauber URL URL

on sat NUMBER aug NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER john hall johnhall evergo net said ran across a site which claimed to explain the original meaning of the ten commandments it seems some of those meanings have evolved a bit too by meanings have evolved do you or they mean that the hebrew words have changed meaning or that our understanding of the hebrew words have changed or do they posit a pre mosaic form of the laws that had evolved by time of the pentateuch in particular there was a claim that the commandment on stealing was actually specifically about man stealing selling a free man into slavery this seems bogus to me a quick check of the text indicates the the hebrew word in question is ganav which elsewhere in the pentateuch eg gen NUMBER NUMBER is used to mean steal silver and gold amongst other things in july NUMBER i made the following comment in response to a similar claim about the real meaning of one of the ten commandments the translations since cause problems at each successive remove we have the original language versions though so this is not an issue i m sure most everyone is familiar with the argument that the meaning of the commandment is thou shalt not murder rather than kill this has nothing to do with successive translations it is based on our knowledge of the meaning of the hebrew word ratsach most modern translations i ve seen translate it murder but elsewhere the word is used of an animal killing a human something for which most english speakers wouldn t use the word murder URL james james tauber jtauber URL URL

begin pgp signed message hash shaNUMBER thugs of south boston and the revenge of the bandit princess the geodesic economy robert a hettinga sunday august NUMBER NUMBER boston when you think about it one way the fbi winter hill vs patriarcha angiulo cosa nostra fight was just another race war between thugs put crudely and at its most racist the fbi and the winter hill gang were the mostly irish thugs and patriarcha s family were of course the mostly italian thugs think scorsese s upcoming gangs of new york only with counter reformatory overtones hoover s south boston social club putsch starting in the mid NUMBER s was particularly audacious in hindsight the u s federal government actually decided to underwrite a reversal of the prohibition era capture of the nation s rackets by the italians from the irish the fact that the plot was hatched not for new york but for south boston the most irish place in the us only makes even more gigantic the big lie that was told by the fbi to its ostensible political masters about bringing down organized crime there once and for all the result as we all found out wasn t swapping the heroin of italian boston mob violence for irish methadone hoover was posthumously swapping it for oxycontin or crystal methamphetamine or more properly pcp the absolute psychopathology of violence in whitey bulger s crack cocaine era reign of boston s drug markets like the identical fbi sponsored reigns or violent horror by other also rans in cities across the us as a whole went up whole orders of magnitude not mere percentage points as stalin said once quantity has a quality all it s own and make no mistake j edgar hoover was directly responsible that quality of carnage nation wide so yes on paper at least it really was just the swapping of one gang of racist thugs for another and the result was on paper at least business as usual same stuff different century with apparently decent people like mr salvati URL accidently ground on the gears of justice like so much hamburger however to be much more macabre about it that hamburger was greasing if you will an auto de fe only a homicidal lunatic could love a perfectly functioning market legislated out of existence on paper if nowhere else by government fiat and the back door but still elitist will to power of h l mencken s famous bluenoses and busybodies it all starts like all true evil does from the most innocent of beginnings what she couldn t do to alcohol teatotaling mrs grundy then tried to do to anything else she could think of that had a smaller manageable demand the bloody result was like nine more heads of the hydra an increasingly ubiquitous universal prohibition in more markets and for more things as the NUMBERth century wore on every time some recreational drug was found to be addictive or harmful or physically distasteful or carcinogenic or now apparently fattening and then prohibited exactly the same thing happened to its markets that happened to alcohol during the volstead years a larger market than before the prohibition hugely lucrative profits for anyone with the moral stomach to violently scale newly legislated barriers to competition imposed on them by the state increasingly violent attacks by the government on users of those substances and finally the ultimate in evil the kind of evil this country actually fought wars to end increasingly coercive axe handle beatings by our own government of the sacred liberty of the average but now unavoidably law breaking citizenry as ayn rand cynically observed a long time ago you don t need government if nobody s breaking the law in some twisted corollary to parkinson s law governments to survive need more people breaking more laws or they can never justify the money they confiscate at tax time and to bring us back to the point david friedman would probably echo here his father milton s famous observation that government regulations only benefit the regulated sellers in a given market and never the consumer much less the economy as a whole even especially if those sellers are breaking the law as they are in the increasingly ubiquitous prohibition of risky behavior that our government now imposes on us and there absent the apparent grace of mr hoover went mr salvati in fact hayek himself in the road to serfdom couldn t have predicted any better the gory consequences of hoover s blatant imposition for our own good of vietnam era statist power at the neighborhood level and furthermore stalin couldn t have had better useful idiots than hoover did and neither by an absolutely literal extension did whitey bulger after hoover useful idiots on both sides of the congressional aisle idiots who were eating out of hoover s power craven hand for the entire middle of the NUMBERth century and whitey bulger s hand whether they knew it or not until the end of the millennium a time you ll notice which saw the increasingly steady imposition of mob violence and market control from both state and illegal interests way beyond the imaginings of even the most power mad rum running stock kiting movie flopping bureau pumping nazi appeasing irish bostonian little caesar or as for that matter his safely trust funded and now strictly political descendents in terms of actual financial economics think of what happened to mr salvati and the others dead or alive as a transfer price in human lives of the inevitable consequence of macnamara style vietnam era keynesian social cost input output accounting at its most despicable and you can almost begin to fathom the atrocity that was committed by hoover and his co religionists in state economic control in the name of what really was as you ll now agree just a race war between thugs up in boston this shouldn t be a surprise really all race wars are at least fought by thugs though they re usually conceived elsewhere and endorsed at the time by all the right people for all the right reasons as far as the fbi itself goes remember mancur olson s observation that a prince is just a stationary bandit though given his penchant for women s clothing for other men and what s actually obscene for violently hypocritical treatment of people of his own affectional preference i suppose we can call j edgar hoover a bandit princess instead bandit queen of course would be a grievous insult to queens and real bandits everywhere cheers rah URL pagewanted print position top the new york times august NUMBER NUMBER hoover s f b i and the mafia case of bad bedfellows grows by fox butterfield boston aug NUMBER it was march NUMBER in the early days of j edgar hoover s war against the mafia f b i agents say congressional investigators eavesdropped on a conversation in the headquarters of new england s organized crime boss raymond patriarca two gangsters joseph barboza and vincent flemmi wanted mr patriarca s permission to kill a small time hoodlum edward deegan as they were having a problem with him according to an f b i log of the conversation patriarca ultimately furnished this o k the f b i reported and three days later mr deegan turned up dead in an alley shot six times it was an extraordinary situation the federal bureau of investigation had evidence ahead of time that two well known gangsters were planning a murder and that the head of the new england mafia was involved but when indictments in the case were handed down in NUMBER the real killers who also happened to be informers for the f b i were left alone four other men were tried convicted and sentenced to death or life in prison for the murder though they had had nothing to do with it one joseph salvati who spent NUMBER years in prison filed notice with the justice department last week that he planned to sue the f b i for NUMBER million for false imprisonment his is the latest in a series of lawsuits against the f b i the justice department and some f b i agents growing out of the tangled corrupt collaboration between gangsters and the f b i s boston office in its effort to bring down the mob the lawsuits are based on evidence uncovered in the last five years in a judicial hearing and a justice department inquiry but some of the most explosive evidence has only recently come to light including documents detailing conversation in which mr patriarca approved the murder they were released as part of an investigation by the house committee on government reform which has pressured the department into turning over records about the f b i in boston the documents show that officials at f b i headquarters apparently including mr hoover knew as long ago as NUMBER that boston agents were employing killers and gang leaders as informers and were protecting them from prosecution j edgar hoover crossed over the line and became a criminal himself said vincent garo mr salvati s lawyer he allowed a witness to lie to put an innocent man in prison so he could protect one of his informants mr barboza was a crucial witness at trial against mr salvati and may have implicated him because mr salvati owed NUMBER to a loan shark who worked for mr barboza asked about the documents showing that mr hoover knew of mr salvati s innocence when he was put on trial gail marcinkiewicz a spokeswoman for the f b i in boston declined to comment citing the pending litigation a justice department task force is continuing to investigate misconduct in the boston office in one of the first results of the investigation one retired agent john j connolly is awaiting sentencing next month after being convicted of racketeering and obstruction of justice for helping two other mob leaders who were f b i informers james bulger and stephen flemmi vincent and stephen flemmi are brothers the government reform committee led by representative dan burton republican of indiana has uncovered memorandums from the boston office to headquarters in washington revealing the bureau s knowledge that vincent flemmi and mr barboza were involved in killing mr deegan a memorandum a week after the killing described the crime including who fired the first shot then on june NUMBER NUMBER mr hoover s office demanded to know what progress was being made in developing vincent flemmi as an informer in a reply five days later the special agent in charge of the boston office said that mr flemmi was in a hospital recovering from gunshot wounds but because of his connections to mr patriarca potentially could be an excellent informant the agent also informed mr hoover that mr flemmi was known to have killed seven men and from all indications he is going to continue to commit murder nevertheless the agent said the informant s potential outweighs the risk involved a congressional investigator called the exchange chilling the most frightening part is that after being warned about flemmi s murders the director does not even respond the investigator said there is no message not to use a murderer as a government informant the origin of the corruption scandal was public and political pressure on mr hoover to move more forcefully against the growing power of the mafia which he had largely ignored in boston f b i agents recruited mr barboza and mr flemmi and developed close ties to a rival criminal organization the winter hill gang led by mr bulger both sides got what they wanted according to the investigations and the trial of mr connolly the f b i got information that eventually helped destroy the patriarca and angiulo families which controlled organized crime in new england mr bulger s gang was able to take over the rackets in boston sell drugs and even commit murder while the f b i looked the other way one reason the f b i may not have used its information about mr patriarca s involvement in the deegan murder congressional investigators say is that it came from an illegal listening device in his providence r i headquarters the f b i agent who transcribed the conversation made it appear that the information was coming from unnamed informants to disguise the use of the device the investigators say mr salvati a former truck driver now NUMBER had his sentence commuted in NUMBER by gov william f weld last year while he was still on parole his murder conviction was dismissed by a massachusetts state judge after the justice department task force made public documents suggesting his innocence two of the other wrongly convicted men died in prison their survivors have joined the fourth man peter limone in a NUMBER million lawsuit against the justice department mr limone was sentenced to die in the electric chair his life was spared only when massachusetts outlawed the death penalty in NUMBER mr salvati lives in a modest apartment in boston s north end with his wife marie who visited him in prison every week during those NUMBER years each week mr salvati sent her a romantic card which she put on the television set it was mr garo said all they had of each other begin pgp signature version pgp NUMBER NUMBER iqa awubpwmbNUMBERspxhNUMBERjfNUMBERohaeqlNUMBERqgcgxhqNUMBEReeNUMBERuesnvNUMBERuNUMBERwgvmjfNUMBERkNUMBERsNUMBERanNUMBERrb NUMBERsrsgomwjndwiakoehofnhpi oeld end pgp signature r a hettinga mailto rah ibuc com the internet bearer underwriting corporation URL NUMBER farquhar street boston ma NUMBER usa however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity predicting the end of the world has not been found agreeable to experience edward gibbon decline and fall of the roman empire URL

from what i read the rest of it looked quite good so it does seem odd they would make the seemingly incorrect blanket statement about the hebrew for steal one possibility is that the page is a summary of information gathered from a variety of sources of varying qualities james on sun NUMBER aug NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER john hall johnhall evergo net said remember i didn t say it was necessarily a good source just that it looked good the site was URL my memory of what they said was accurate i do not have the competence to defend what they said james tauber s response indicates a breadth of knowledge i can t match james tauber jtauber URL URL

does anyone here know if the computational recreations columns from scientific american in the NUMBER s NUMBER s were compiled into a book or two i think i remember martin gardner publishing the earlier mathematical recreations in a couple of hard covers but i m unsure about the later column help ross URL

hire a really talented skywriter to doodle nudie pics in the sky and see if they figure out what to charge you with exactly how far into the sky does the border of your local district reach if the creator didnt say you could have it without paying it s theft so simple hell that s even in all the major holy books wow i ve got a great idea i ll hire a skywriter to write you can t look at this without paying then lock up everybody who looked at it and didn t pay it can t fail jesus is on my side URL

on NUMBER aug NUMBER rosso wrote does anyone here know if the computational recreations columns from scientific american in the NUMBER s NUMBER s were compiled into a book or two i think i remember martin gardner publishing the earlier mathematical recreations in a couple of hard covers but i m unsure about the later column help not sure about mg though i know pretty much everything he penned got into print at one time or another sa needs to do what national geo did and put out thier back issues on cd post mg in the NUMBER s there were the colums by a k dewdney that i dug a bunch put into a book called turing omnibus and then there is of course all the goodens put out by dougy hoffstadler URL

r a hettinga wrote and then there was the one from prairie home companion q why is a viola larger than a violin a it just looks that way because a violin player s head is bigger suggested variation q why does the concertmaster play a smaller violin than the rest of the violinists a it just looks that way because his head is bigger c c c URL

adam l beberg wrote fair use needs to be clarified a bit that s an understatement how else do i ever have hope of finding a job working for someone that makes things people are supposed to drumroll pay for well you could damn well get a fucking better attitude i practically handed you a job the other week and you pissed all over me i m done helping you you have joined a very exclusive club that up to now has only had my sister as a member joe URL

so last night around NUMBER NUMBERam i m woken up by a loud craaack followed by one of the most dreaded sounds a homeowner ever hears vast quantities of water spilling onto the floor the water is coming from the bathroom the toilet specifically turns out the water cistern on the top of the toilet had cracked down the side and was spilling out all the water so after shutting off the water and mopping up i was left to ponder what are the odds of having mechanical failure of a large rectangular porcelain bowl in the absence of any visible stressors like someone striking it with a sledgehammer we hadn t done anything unusual to the toilet in the recent past just normal use i ve never heard of this happening to anyone i know the guts yeah they fail all the time but the storage bowl never geesh jim URL

on mon NUMBER aug NUMBER jim whitehead wrote a sledgehammer we hadn t done anything unusual to the toilet in the recent past just normal use i ve never heard of this happening to anyone i know the guts yeah they fail all the time but the storage bowl never do you have any tesla nuts inthe hood them hooligans and thier beams URL

at NUMBER NUMBER am NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER adam l beberg wrote if the creator didnt say you could have it without paying it s theft so simple hell that s even in all the major holy books in which world are we talking about that may be true for the first sale but once something is out in the world the creator loses control if i buy a chair you built and then decide to give it away to my neighbor by you re definition he just stole from you fair use needs to be clarified a bit and then i hope they start locking people up how else do i ever have hope of finding a job working for someone that makes things people are supposed to drumroll pay for why is it that people don t understand that giving stuff away is a perfectly acceptable tactic in capitalist businesses in many places it s called advertising buy one get one free free shipping on any order over NUMBER buy this couch and get a coffee table for free free popcorn with any movie rental free doorprize to the first NUMBER people who enter the author will be signing books for free at such and such bookstore access to free stuff often helps to sell other stuff just because you and the entertainment industry it seems can t be creative enough to come up with a business model to leverage free stuff into paid stuff don t take it out on the rest of us mike URL

on mon NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER at NUMBER NUMBER mike masnick wrote in which world are we talking about that may be true for the first sale but once something is out in the world the creator loses control if i buy a chair you built and then decide to give it away to my neighbor by you re definition he just stole from you there are specific statutory exemptions to the first sale principle of fair use in the us for example audio recordings have such an exemption dating from the early NUMBERs iirc which is why you can t legally be in the business of renting audio cds the creators can control what you do with it after they ve sold it to you certain industries would like to extend similar exemptions to other products there is no theoretical limit to what congress could revoke such privileges on access to free stuff often helps to sell other stuff just because you and the entertainment industry it seems can t be creative enough to come up with a business model to leverage free stuff into paid stuff don t take it out on the rest of us the problem with the entertainment industry is that they engage in business and pricing tactics that make anything microsoft was ever accused of pale in comparison if they can t figure out how to make money doing something they ll actually burn money to make sure no industry outsider can either for all intents and purposes control is more important than maximizing profit as long as they can make a profit they don t need your carrot so they only engage in reasonable business behavior when you are carrying a very large stick and few people swing a stick large enough they are being chronically investigated by the doj for anti trust collusion and similar activities but that is mostly just for show which isn t to say that the entertainment industry won t fall victim to its own stupidity but their ability to do arbitrary and capricious price manipulation with impunity is going to make it a slow decline james rogers jamesr URL URL

actually this is common i ve known a couple of people who have suffered this believe it or not you were lucky you were home rather than on vacation and so you didn t have the intake line flowing onto the floor for two weeks now don t you feel better _________________________________________________________________ chat with friends online try msn messenger URL URL

i think that this and other articles confuse socialism with bureaucracy libertarianism as implemented in north america is not exactly the shining pinnacle of economic efficiency just try starting a telephone company in the us or even worse canada it can take a year or more to get the blessing of our own permit rajs at the fcc puc and ptts or in the decidedly more socialist leaning canada industry canada and the crtc yet despite all of this intense regulation and paper pushing as well as regulatory scrutiny by the ftc sec and irs the executives of telecom companies have managed to bilk the investment community for what looks to be tens of billions of dollars they finished their routine with the a quadruple lutz laying off hundreds of thousands of workers when it all came crashing down so tell me again how are we better off ian on tuesday august NUMBER NUMBER at NUMBER NUMBER pm john hall wrote the mystery of capital why capitalism triumphs in the west and fails everywhere else by hernando de soto is something i m reading now my impression is that france is not anywhere near the permit raj nightmare that india is and became nor has its market been closed like india s has but de soto s work is perhaps just as important or more so he hasn t dealt specifically with india but i recall examples from peru philippines and egypt in lima his team took over a year i think it was NUMBER working NUMBER hr days to legally register a NUMBER person company in the philippines getting legal title can take NUMBER years in egypt about NUMBER of the population in cairo lives in places where they are officially illegal india hasn t been helped by its socialism socialism has certainly helped strangle the country in permits but perhaps de soto is right that the real crippling thing is keeping most of the people out of the legal official property system putting most of the people in the property system was something the west only finished about NUMBER years ago or japan did NUMBER years ago it wasn t easy but we live in a society that doesn t even remember we did it original message from fork admin URL mailto fork admin URL on behalf of robert harley sent tuesday august NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER am to fork URL subject re the curse of india s socialism rah quoted indians are not poor because there are too many of them they are poor because there are too many regulations and too much government intervention even today a decade after reforms were begun india s greatest problems arise from a political culture guided by socialist instincts on the one hand and an imbedded legal obligation on the other hand nice theory and all but s india france g and the statements hold just as true yet france is NUMBER in the un s hdi ranking not NUMBER since all parties must stand for socialism no party espouses classical liberalism i m not convinced that that classical liberalism is a good solution for countries in real difficulty see joseph stiglitz nobel for economics on the fmi s failed remedies of course googling on stiglitz fmi only brings up links in spanish and french i guess that variety of spin is non grata in many anglo circles r URL URL URL

i think that this and other articles confuse socialism with bureaucracy libertarianism as implemented in north america is not exactly the shining pinnacle of economic efficiency just try starting a telephone company in the us or even worse canada it can take a year or more to get the blessing of our own permit rajs at the fcc puc and ptts or in the decidedly more socialist leaning canada industry canada and the crtc yet despite all of this intense regulation and paper pushing as well as regulatory scrutiny by the ftc sec and irs the executives of telecom companies have managed to bilk the investment community for what looks to be tens of billions of dollars they finished their routine with the a quadruple lutz laying off hundreds of thousands of workers when it all came crashing down so tell me again how are we better off ian on tuesday august NUMBER NUMBER at NUMBER NUMBER pm john hall wrote the mystery of capital why capitalism triumphs in the west and fails everywhere else by hernando de soto is something i m reading now my impression is that france is not anywhere near the permit raj nightmare that india is and became nor has its market been closed like india s has but de soto s work is perhaps just as important or more so he hasn t dealt specifically with india but i recall examples from peru philippines and egypt in lima his team took over a year i think it was NUMBER working NUMBER hr days to legally register a NUMBER person company in the philippines getting legal title can take NUMBER years in egypt about NUMBER of the population in cairo lives in places where they are officially illegal india hasn t been helped by its socialism socialism has certainly helped strangle the country in permits but perhaps de soto is right that the real crippling thing is keeping most of the people out of the legal official property system putting most of the people in the property system was something the west only finished about NUMBER years ago or japan did NUMBER years ago it wasn t easy but we live in a society that doesn t even remember we did it original message from fork admin URL mailto fork admin URL on behalf of robert harley sent tuesday august NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER am to fork URL subject re the curse of india s socialism rah quoted indians are not poor because there are too many of them they are poor because there are too many regulations and too much government intervention even today a decade after reforms were begun india s greatest problems arise from a political culture guided by socialist instincts on the one hand and an imbedded legal obligation on the other hand nice theory and all but s india france g and the statements hold just as true yet france is NUMBER in the un s hdi ranking not NUMBER since all parties must stand for socialism no party espouses classical liberalism i m not convinced that that classical liberalism is a good solution for countries in real difficulty see joseph stiglitz nobel for economics on the fmi s failed remedies of course googling on stiglitz fmi only brings up links in spanish and french i guess that variety of spin is non grata in many anglo circles r URL URL URL

i think that this and other articles confuse socialism with bureaucracy libertarianism as implemented in north america is not exactly the shining pinnacle of economic efficiency just try starting a telephone company in the us or even worse canada it can take a year or more to get the blessing of our own permit rajs at the fcc puc and ptts or in the decidedly more socialist leaning canada industry canada and the crtc yet despite all of this intense regulation and paper pushing as well as regulatory scrutiny by the ftc sec and irs the executives of telecom companies have managed to bilk the investment community for what looks to be tens of billions of dollars they finished their routine with the a quadruple lutz laying off hundreds of thousands of workers when it all came crashing down so tell me again how are we better off ian on tuesday august NUMBER NUMBER at NUMBER NUMBER pm john hall wrote the mystery of capital why capitalism triumphs in the west and fails everywhere else by hernando de soto is something i m reading now my impression is that france is not anywhere near the permit raj nightmare that india is and became nor has its market been closed like india s has but de soto s work is perhaps just as important or more so he hasn t dealt specifically with india but i recall examples from peru philippines and egypt in lima his team took over a year i think it was NUMBER working NUMBER hr days to legally register a NUMBER person company in the philippines getting legal title can take NUMBER years in egypt about NUMBER of the population in cairo lives in places where they are officially illegal india hasn t been helped by its socialism socialism has certainly helped strangle the country in permits but perhaps de soto is right that the real crippling thing is keeping most of the people out of the legal official property system putting most of the people in the property system was something the west only finished about NUMBER years ago or japan did NUMBER years ago it wasn t easy but we live in a society that doesn t even remember we did it original message from fork admin URL mailto fork admin URL on behalf of robert harley sent tuesday august NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER am to fork URL subject re the curse of india s socialism rah quoted indians are not poor because there are too many of them they are poor because there are too many regulations and too much government intervention even today a decade after reforms were begun india s greatest problems arise from a political culture guided by socialist instincts on the one hand and an imbedded legal obligation on the other hand nice theory and all but s india france g and the statements hold just as true yet france is NUMBER in the un s hdi ranking not NUMBER since all parties must stand for socialism no party espouses classical liberalism i m not convinced that that classical liberalism is a good solution for countries in real difficulty see joseph stiglitz nobel for economics on the fmi s failed remedies of course googling on stiglitz fmi only brings up links in spanish and french i guess that variety of spin is non grata in many anglo circles r URL URL URL

thx for the thoughts gentlemen yes as someone said i use terms loosely more than cool quality snobs only care about mpixels this is about communications the general public cares about speed not quality how is akamai doing these days not to mention any other qos businesses that come to mind implementation point about hooking to usb wires etc agree NUMBER these implementations are super clunky attachable camera needs to be integrated a la nokia model basically useless until better handsets are released i think adoption ian brought up the fax problem brilliant thing is this is far more personal than faxes so can be justified more easily and marketed in family packs etc but yes the usual rules apply as mms phones have network efx content who cares about content that no one can think of useful content is always the business persons mistake the content is the users communications its anything and everything avg person could easily send half dozen pics to a dozen people a day mainly humorous i d guess who cares if content is trivial in nature picture speaks a thousand words display why are dig camera displays better than cell phones does anyone know who makes these small displays and what the trends are around them misc ramblings i suppose you skeptical forkers would have said the same thing about NUMBER hour photo processing trivial who needs it i get better resultion elswhere and yet it had great decentralizing impact the plant had to be downsized and pushed to the retail operation the digital camera and finally the integrated digital camera phone brings this cycle of decentralization in photography to a logical conclusion which will put the photo giants to bed and change the world in a meaningful way also sms didn t take off because its easy it took off because it costs less its greatly ironic the carriers often trumpet the profitabilty of their sms traffic over others because of its ratio of cost to bandwidth in reality sms cannibilizes the voice rev s they bought their networks to handle ps it is relatively amusing that one low resolution complaint dropped just after joe watched a cartoon on his television you re right or at least i don t i saw an advert for it on tv last night can t miss futurama and i thought boy that s dumb if i wanted to share pictures with someone i d email them to them where they could see them on a NUMBERx or NUMBERx display instead of rob original message from eugen leitl mailto eugen leitl org sent monday august NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER am to rob shavell cc fork URL subject re sprint delivers the next big thing on sun NUMBER aug NUMBER rob shavell wrote down in the tech world than mobile visual communications and yet no one seems to give much of a damn that right now that NUMBER persons can take photos and share them instantly across space this is one of the biggest and the word trivial comes to mind last fundamental changes in human communications will be as big as the browser remote realtime streaming video is neat but sharing pictures you invoke big words rather readily URL

right mike i will agree to disagree but i take your comments to heart my opinion is only that this is one of the last frontiers of communications instant show that we cross easily though you are right as rain on pricing i am mildly amused at the level of skepticism and innatention it is getting my premise is that the world will change in dramatic and unexpected ways once there are a billion eye s which can instantly share what they see amongst each other that doesn t mean that people will stop talking on their phones or that people will spend more time w images than voice just that it is fundamental from news to crime to privacy to dating to family life to bloopers and practical jokes i believe there will be an explosion of images unleashed specifically by cell phone integrated lenses because of their utter ubiquity that dwarfs all pictures taken in the history of photography by orders of magnitude and in short order and yes changes things big time rgds rob original message from mike masnick mailto mike techdirt com sent tuesday august NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER pm to rob shavell cc fork URL subject re sprint delivers the next big thing not to keep harping on this but at NUMBER NUMBER pm NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER rob shavell wrote content who cares about content that no one can think of useful content is always the business persons mistake the content is the users communications its anything and everything avg person could easily send half dozen pics to a dozen people a day mainly humorous i d guess who cares if content is trivial in nature picture speaks a thousand words this does nothing to answer my question i do care about content hell if i could be convinced that people would send stupid pics back and forth all day i d have a different opinion of this i just am not convinced that they will stupid or not while a picture may be worth a thousand words and this is the same argument the guy who works for me made how many people do you know who communicate by pictures sure it sounds nice to say that a picture is such an efficient messaging mechanism but how often do you actually find yourself drawing someone a picture to explain something i don t buy it for most messages text works fine and is the most efficient mechanism for some messages pictures do the job but i would say not nearly as often as words why do you think pictionary and charades and such are games because images are usually not the most efficient way to get a message across misc ramblings i suppose you skeptical forkers would have said the same thing about NUMBER hour photo processing trivial who needs it i get better resultion elswhere and yet it had great decentralizing impact the plant had to be downsized and pushed to the retail operation the digital camera and finally the integrated digital camera phone brings this cycle of decentralization in photography to a logical conclusion which will put the photo giants to bed and change the world in a meaningful way also sms didn t take off because its easy it took off because it costs less its greatly ironic the carriers often trumpet the profitabilty of their sms traffic over others because of its ratio of cost to bandwidth in reality sms cannibilizes the voice rev s they bought their networks to handle again this is the same argument my colleague made along with you just don t understand kids today and they ll run with this i wasn t saying that mms wouldn t take off because it wasn t high quality or that it wasn t easy i was saying that i couldn t see why people would use it in a way that changed the face of communications i m looking for the compelling reason even if it s a stupid one why people would want to do this sure if they integrate cameras into the phone and the quality improves even only marginally i can certainly see people taking pictures with their cameras and occasionally sending them to other people but mostly i don t see what the benefit is to this over sending them to someone s email address or putting together an online or offline photoalbum i don t think NUMBER hour photos are trivial people want to see their own pics right away and the quality is plenty good enough for snapshots that s one of the main reasons why digital cameras are catching on the instant view part i m guessing your argument is that people not only want instant view but also instant show which is what this service offers i m not convinced that most people want instant show i think people like to package their pictures and show them that s why people put together fancy albums and sit there and force you to go through them while they explain every picture sure occasionally instant show is nice but it s just nice on occasion i still can t see how it becomes a integral messaging method what s the specific benefit of taking a picture and immediately sending it from one phone to another there has to be some benefit even if it s silly if people are going to flock to it i m searching no one has given me a straight answer yet the only really intriguing idea i ve heard about things like mms lately are dan gillmor s assertion that one day in the near future some news event will happen and a bunch of people will snap pictures with their mobile phones from all different angles and those photos tell the real story of what happened before the press even gets there willing to be proven wrong mike ps if the wireless carriers continue to price these services as stupidly as they currently are then mms is never going to catch on URL

justin mason writes so imo it s the corruption that s the problem and corruption regulation and corruption socialism also over population is really a symptom of that without addressing the overpopulation argument the more bureaucracy the more opportunity for corruption if a corporation is corrupt there are generally absent more government intervention alternatives with bureacracy that is more difficult one generally most uproot oneself and move URL

what is mime mime stands for multipurpose internet mail extensions it is the standard for how to send multipart multimedia and binary data using the world wide internet email system typical uses of mime include sending images audio wordprocessing documents programs or even plain text files when it is important that the mail system does not modify any part of the file mime also allows for labelling message parts so that a recipient or mail program may determine what to do with them how can i read a mime message since mime is only a few years old there are still some mailers in use which do not understand mime messages however there are a growing number of mail programs that have mime support built in one popular mime capable mailer for unix vms and pcs is pine developed at the university of washington and available via anonymous ftp from the host URL in the file pine pine tar z in addition several proprietary email systems provide mime translation capability in their internet gateway products however even if you do not have access to a mime capable mailer or suitable gateway there is still hope there are a number of stand alone programs that can interpret a mime message one of the more versatile is called munpack it was developed at carnegie mellon university and is available via anonymous ftp from the host URL in the directory pub mpack there are versions available for unix pc mac and amiga systems for compabibility with older forms of transferring binary files the munpack program can also decode messages in split uuencoded format does mime replace uuencode yes uuencode has been used for some time for encoding binary files so that they can be sent via internet mail but it has several technical limitations and interoperability problems mime uses a more robust encoding called baseNUMBER which has been carefully designed to survive the message transformations made by certain email gateways how can i learn more about mime the mime internet standard is described in rfc NUMBER available via anonymous ftp from many different internet hosts including o us east coast address URL NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER o us west coast address URL NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER o pacific rim address URL NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER o europe address URL NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER look for the file rfc rfcNUMBER txt another source of information is the internet news group comp mail mime which includes a periodic posting of a frequently asked questions list URL

on thu NUMBER aug NUMBER lucas gonze wrote political mail the snail kind doesn t bother me i like it a lot of the time because as crap as it is at least it s not the kind of info you get on tv particularly for small time local politics it s the best way to get information except that thanks to the magic of spam it s usually some else s locale but what matters is that mail is speech and political email has to be as well protected as any other political speech spam is the tool for dissident news since the face that it s unsolicited means that recipients can t be blamed for being on a mailing list a terrible argument there are better technical solutions to privacy protection than sending a copy of the same message to everyone on the internet so the recipients can t be blamed for reading it wait till phone spam is as cheap to send as email spam dan URL

hi kragen this is an interesting analysis i think that there are a couple of nits i might pick for example i don t expect that the market will be well developed with highest bidders for while i think that the most important issue which is that end users won t be able to fix their systems is almost passed over i know that you know this and you allude to it but your essay is getting passed around so you might want to add to it bits about the sysadmin and others there s one other point which you don t make which i think is very important which is that research into defining and addressing classes of vulnerabilities can t happen without libraries of available vulnerability code i can think of three researchers into automated methods for addressing vulnerabilities who griped uninvited about the quality of the existing vulnerability sites doing research into a set requires that you have enough examples in the open that you can define a set and that the set is added to from time to time so you can make and test predictions i feel fairly confident in saying that without full disclosure we wouldn t have stackguard itsNUMBER nissus or snort and the security admin s job would be a lot harder adam on thu aug NUMBER NUMBER at NUMBER NUMBER NUMBERam NUMBER eugen leitl wrote eugen leitl a href URL leitl a ______________________________________________________________ icbmto nNUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER eNUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER URL NUMBEReNUMBERcaNUMBER edeNUMBER NUMBER NUMBER aNUMBERb NUMBERaNUMBER NUMBERaNUMBER aaNUMBER NUMBEReNUMBER NUMBEReNUMBER caNUMBER forwarded message date thu NUMBER aug NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER edt from kragen sitaker kragen pobox com to fork URL subject the underground software vulnerability marketplace and its hazards on august NUMBERth an entity known as idefense sent out an announcement which is appended to this email briefly idefense which bills itself as a global security intelligence company is offering cash for information about security vulnerabilities in computer software that are not publicly known especially if you promise not to tell anyone else if this kind of secret traffic is allowed to continue it will pose a very serious threat to our computer communications infrastructure at the moment the dominant paradigm for computer security research known as full disclosure people who discover security vulnerabilities in software tell the vendor about them and a short while later after the vendor has had a chance to fix the problem they publish the information including code to exploit the vulnerability if possible this method has proven far superior to the old paradigm established by cert in the late NUMBERs which its proponents might call responsible disclosure never release working exploit code and never release any information on the vulnerability before all vendors have released a patch this procedure often left hundreds of thousands of computers vulnerable to known bugs for months or years while the vendors worked on features and often even after the patches were released people wouldn t apply them because they didn t know how serious the problem was the underground computer criminal community would often discover and exploit these same holes for months or years while the responsible disclosure process kept their victims who had no connections in the underground vulnerable the problem with this is that vulnerabilities that are widely known are much less dangerous because their victims can take steps to reduce their potential impact including disabling software turning off vulnerable features filtering traffic in transit and detecting and responding to intrusions they are therefore much less useful to would be intruders also software companies usually see security vulnerabilities in their software as pr problems and so prefer to delay publication and the expense of fixing the bugs as long as possible idefense is offering a new alternative that appears far more dangerous than either of the two previous paradigms they want to be a buyer in a marketplace for secret software vulnerability information rewarding discoverers of vulnerabilities with cash not long before snosoft a group of security researchers evidently including some criminal elements apparently made an offer to sell the secrecy of some software vulnerability information to the software vendor specifically they apparently made a private offer to hewlett packard to keep a vulnerability in hp s truNUMBER unix secret if hp retained snosoft s consulting services hp considered this extortion and responded with legal threats and snosoft published the information if this is allowed to happen it will cause two problems which together add up to a catastrophe first secret software vulnerability information will be available to the highest bidder and to nobody else for reasons explained later i think the highest bidders will generally be organized crime syndicates although that will not be obvious to the sellers second finding software vulnerabilities and keeping them secret will become lucrative for many more talented people the result will be just as in the responsible disclosure days that the good guys will remain vulnerable for months and years while the majority of current vulnerabilities are kept secret i ve heard it argued that the highest bidders will generally be the vendors of the vulnerable software but i don t think that s plausible if someone can steal NUMBER NUMBER because a software bug lets them the software vendor is never held liable often in fact the people who administer the software aren t liable either when credit card data are stolen from an e commerce site for example knowing about a vulnerability before anyone else might save a web site administrator some time and it might save the software vendor some negative pr but it can net the thief thousands of dollars i think the highest bidders will be those for whom early vulnerability information is most lucrative the thieves who can use it to execute the largest heists without getting caught inevitably that means organized crime syndicates although the particular gangs who are good at networked theft may not yet exist there might be the occasional case where a market leader such as microsoft could make more money by giving their competitors bad pr than a gang could make by theft think of a remote root hole in samba for example right now people who know how to find security exploits are either motivated by personal interest in the subject motivated by the public interest motivated by a desire for individual recognition or personally know criminals that benefit from their exploits creating a marketplace in secret vulnerability information would vastly increase the availability of that information to the people who can afford to pay the most for it spies terrorists and organized crime let s not let that happen this is the original idefense announcement from sunil james mailto sjames URL sent wednesday august NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER pm subject introducing idefense s vulnerability contributor program greetings idefense is pleased to announce the official launch of its vulnerability contributor program vcp the vcp pays contributors for the advance notification of vulnerabilities exploit code and malicious code idefense hopes you might consider contributing to the vcp the following provides answers to some basic questions about the program q how will it work a idefense understands the majority of security researchers do not publish security research for compensation rather it could be for any of a number of motivations including the following pure love of security research the desire to protect against harm to targeted networks the desire to urge vendors to fix their products the publicity that often accompanies disclosure the vcp is for those who want to have their research made public to the internet community but who would also like to be paid for doing the work the compensation will depend among other things on the following items the kind of information being shared i e vulnerability or exploit the amount of detail and analysis provided the potential severity level for the information shared the types of applications operating systems and other software and hardware potentially affected verification by idefense labs the level of exclusivity if any for data granted to idefense q who should contribute to the vcp a the vcp is open to any individual security research group or other entity q why are you launching this program a timeliness remains a key aspect in security intelligence contributions to some lists take time before publication to the public at large more often many of these services charge clients for access without paying the original contributor under the idefense program the contributor is compensated idefense labs verifies the issue and idefense clients and the public at large are warned in a timely manner q who gets the credit a the contributor is always credited for discovering the vulnerability or exploit information q when can i contribute the vcp is active you are welcome to begin contributing today to learn more go to URL if you have questions or would like to sign up as a contributor to the vcp please contact us at contributor URL regards sunil james technical analyst idefense idefense is a global security intelligence company that proactively monitors sources throughout the world from technical vulnerabilities and hacker profiling to the global spread of viruses and other malicious code the ialert security intelligence service provides decision makers frontline security professionals and network administrators with timely access to actionable intelligence and decision support on cyber related threats idefense labs is the research wing that verifies vulnerabilities examines the behavior of exploits and other malicious code and discovers new software hardware weaknesses in a controlled lab environment URL it is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once hume URL

didn t we just have a discussion on fork how hard it is nowadays to write something that s not buffer overflow protected URL location URL im client vulnerable to attack im client vulnerable to attack james pearce zdnet australia users of messenger client trillian are vulnerable to attack according to information security analyst john hennessy hennessy has published a proof of concept showing the latest version of trillian vNUMBER NUMBER is vulnerable to a buffer overflow attack that will allow individuals with malicious intent to run any program on the computer trillion is a piece of software that allows you to connect to icq aol instant messenger msn messenger yahoo messenger and irc with a single interface despite some companies actively avoiding messenger interoperability according to jason ross senior analyst at amr interactive in june NUMBER there were NUMBER NUMBER home users of trillian in australia about NUMBER NUMBER percent of the internet population and NUMBER NUMBER people using it at work about NUMBER NUMBER percent of the internet population david banes regional manager of symantec security response told zdnet australia the code appeared to be valid with these sort of things you have to find some process that would accept a connection then throw loads of random data at it and get it to crash he said once it s crashed you can try to find a way to exploit it he said the proof of concept that was published is designed to run on notepad but could be easily modified to run any program on the system he said the problem was easy to fix by writing protective code around that particular piece to more closely validate the data around that piece because people are pushed for productivity you tend to leave out the checks and balances you should put in which is why we have all these buffer overflows and exploits out there now said banes cerulean studios creator of trillian was contacted for comment but had not responded by the time of publication for all security related news including updates on the latest viruses hacking exploits and patches check out zdnet uk s security news section have your say instantly and see what others have said go to the security forum let the editors know what you think in the mailroom copyright NUMBER cnet networks inc all rights reserved zdnet is a registered service mark of cnet networks inc zdnet logo is a service mark of cnet networks inc URL

there s been well documented articles studies of the french tax laws corporate governance and financial oversight that NUMBER dont easily allow for isos the root of almost all entrepreneurialship and NUMBER the easy flow of capital to new ventures it was an extremely large issue even debated widely in france greg chuck murcko wrote according to my son it was actually homer simpson who claimed the french had no word for victory chuck on thursday august NUMBER NUMBER at NUMBER NUMBER pm robert harley wrote an apparent quote from dubya from the times sent to me by my dad URL tony blair s special relationship with george w bush is under considerable strain not only do the two disagree on yassir arafat s tenure as leader of the palestinian authority but blair has started telling disparaging anecdotes about the president baroness williams of crosby recalled a story told to her by my good friend tony blair recently in brighton blair bush and jacques chirac were discussing economics and in particular the decline of the french economy the problem with the french bush confided in blair is that they don t have a word for entrepreneur r URL URL URL

doom NUMBER will be based on a peer to peer architecture says cmdrtaco quoting ant quoting carmack greg URL doom NUMBER will use pNUMBERp system posted by cmdrtaco on sunday august NUMBER NUMBER NUMBERam from the i ll believe it when i m fragged on it dept ant writes from page NUMBER of firingsquad s quakecon NUMBER postmortem article john carmack said something at the end of the q a about how the multiplayer will be only four players tim after NUMBER hours of talking up at the podium sometimes you leave a few details out doom NUMBER multiplayer will be fully scalable it will be a peer to peer system we haven t started working on it yet tell everyone not to panic it will be fine john just forgot to mention it ll be scalable past four players it s hard to give a hard number because we haven t started working on it yet right now we re focused on making doom NUMBER a kickass over the top single player game URL

i finally let go of my irix magic desktop and window manager and evaluated several other window managers having lost my NUMBER years of customization with my xNUMBER and then xNUMBER desktop at one point at uci i promised myself that i d never get attached to another wm i limped along in the default gnome desktop i had a few unsuccessful stabs at the solaris open view desktop but nothing really stuck because of this along with sgi s love of pre configured pre compiled freeware NUMBER i never really made the jump from irix to linux either after installing the enlightenment wm i have to say i am really enlightened it s definitely a far cry from the no frills first look from previous versions it s only on version NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER but it s a careful balance between simplicity performance fun features applications and ease of customization the number of themes they have on freshmeat is amazing NUMBER after less than an hour or two of nesting i already have almost all my menus and controls setup just the way i want i definitely recommend this to any irix desktop holdouts it s a great way to refresh your machine sgi without having to bite the bullet and rebuild it as a linux machine greg NUMBER URL NUMBER URL NUMBER URL URL

more articles that support my fantasy that irvine is the center of the universe we ve got the corner on electric cars fuel cells two types of nobel winning physics outside the box computer science and lot of creative writers uci s creative writing department has been in the news a lot over the course of the last decade some quotes from the article NUMBER in NUMBER newsweek called uci s fiction writing workshop the hottest writing program in the country now it s exponentially hotter thanks only in part to sebold s daring and uncannily timely novel the novel they are talking about is alice sebold s the lovely bones which is on the way to the top of the ny times best sellers list my uncle used to tease me about uci being a usc graduate from NUMBER that nobody knew who uc irvine was just two states over in fact i used to refer to uci as one of the lesser known uc schools and when i went off to college in NUMBER my relatives told everyone i was off to cal state irvine i took a class as an undergrad by one of the department s faculty called the art of writing fiction if there was ever any two classes that helped contributed to writing my dissertation it was that one which taught me how to get the writing flowing and my high school typing class which taught me how to type really fast one of the advantages they cite in the article is that they seem to take a chance on the not so sure bet but according to the article the number of uci graduates that have gone on to write best sellers and the handful that feed the film industry is creating a viscious cycle that lures more talent which creates the right writing ecosystem which churns out more success stories which lures more talent greg NUMBER URL URL

this message was sent to you from URL geege would like you to read the story below URL title a first look at the NUMBER NUMBER ghz pentium NUMBER summary latest rambus memory plus fast bus appear to give intel s newest pNUMBER the jolt it needs geege attached the following message ha ha ha harley rambus earns it stay on top of the world of information technology with your own free subscription to our specialized newsletters subscribe now at URL NUMBER

on tue NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER at NUMBER NUMBER ian andrew bell wrote yet despite all of this intense regulation and paper pushing as well as regulatory scrutiny by the ftc sec and irs the executives of telecom companies have managed to bilk the investment community for what looks to be tens of billions of dollars this is a good thing getting hammered for stupid investments is likely to result in smarter investments in the future nobody is supposed to win all the time particularly not people who don t do due diligence a fool and his money are soon parted and all that it isn t the job of the ftc sec irs etc to make sure you invest your money wisely and i have grave doubts that they could even if it was their job they finished their routine with the a quadruple lutz laying off hundreds of thousands of workers when it all came crashing down so what nobody is guaranteed employment laying people off is not a crime nor is it immoral companies don t exist to provide employment nor should they the closest we have to such a thing in the us is a government job and look at the quality that breeds so tell me again how are we better off perhaps it is just a matter of personal preference but i d rather not live in a feed lot society thank you very much james rogers jamesr URL

on sat NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER at NUMBER NUMBER gregory alan bolcer wrote there s been well documented articles studies of the french tax laws corporate governance and financial oversight that NUMBER dont easily allow for isos the root of almost all entrepreneurialship and NUMBER the easy flow of capital to new ventures it was an extremely large issue even debated widely in france it is actually a lot worse than this what it boils down to is that only the privileged class is really allowed to start a serious company what i found fascinating is that the old french aristocracy effectively still exists literally the same families but they now hold top executive and management positions in the major french firms and the government positions which are only passed on to other blue bloods not officially of course but as a strict matter of practice and the laws and legal structures make sure that this system stays firmly in place even for a young french blue blood strict age hierarchies keep them from branching out into a new venture in their own country though many can leverage this to start companies in other countries i know about the french system first hand and the executives are quite candid about it at least to yanks like me who are working with them but i suspect this may hold true for other european countries as well after all those revolutions france is still nothing more than a thinly veiled old school aristocracy with all the trappings james rogers jamesr URL

jim whitehead wrote so after shutting off the water and mopping up i was left to ponder what are the odds of having mechanical failure of a large rectangular porcelain bowl in the absence of any visible stressors like someone striking it with a sledgehammer we hadn t done anything unusual to the toilet in the recent all it takes is an overtorqued nut e g at the water intake entrance to stress the porcelain and you ve got a time bomb waiting to go off of course if you re lucky you ll overtorque it enough that the tank will break right away while you still have the water intake shut off joe

john hall ran across a site which claimed to explain the original meaning of the ten commandments it seems some of those meanings have evolved a bit too you mean that thou shalt not covet thy neighbour s ass used to be about donkeys inconceivable r

on mon NUMBER aug NUMBER joseph s barrera iii wrote adam l beberg wrote fair use needs to be clarified a bit that s an understatement yes it is how else do i ever have hope of finding a job working for someone that makes things people are supposed to drumroll pay for well you could damn well get a fucking better attitude i practically handed you a job the other week and you pissed all over me i m done helping you you have joined a very exclusive club that up to now has only had my sister as a member forwarding me stuff from a list is hardly handing me a job i tracked them down they dont exist anymore like NUMBER of the things i track down the req s are pulled or there is a freeze the real problem is you cant even train for jobs now since they _demand_ NUMBER NUMBER years at a job paid to do the wierd collection of skills they want but i ll get lucky eventually and someone i know will be a hiring manager adam l duncan beberg URL beberg URL

adam l beberg wrote forwarding me stuff from a list is hardly handing me a job i was talking about the open reqs at kana the company i work for oh but programming in java is beneath you joe

on mon NUMBER aug NUMBER geege wrote latest rambus memory plus fast bus appear to give intel s newest pNUMBER the jolt it needs well athlon fsb NUMBER is almost there and i m really looking forward to the hammer series

on mon NUMBER aug NUMBER geege wrote summary latest rambus memory plus fast bus appear to give intel s newest pNUMBER the jolt it needs geege attached the following message ha ha ha harley rambus earns it expect a NUMBER percent to NUMBER percent boost with pcNUMBER NUMBER faster for only NUMBER times pricewatch at NUMBER NUMBERpm NUMBER vs NUMBER the cost gimme gimme gimme and i better get the full NUMBER speedup and gime me that NUMBER faster geforce NUMBER at twice the cost of the NUMBER too seriously who falls for this scam p s finished the psNUMBER port it benchmarks at fp NUMBER int NUMBER a celeron NUMBER benches at fp NUMBER int NUMBER if it s not a polygon fill the thing is useless there will be no beowolf cluster of these it is NUMBERx faster then the ipaq tho at NUMBER NUMBER adam l duncan beberg URL beberg URL

what are you trying to sell what is the value example does pratchett sell paper bound by glue or does he sell stories question when i buy a book have i purchased the story when i sell the book does any of that revenue go to mr pratchett what if i read the book and give it to someone who then reads it and gives it to someone who then reads it and gives it to someones bookcrossing com though with more succesfull passings does each reader send mr pratchett money have used bookstores recorstores etc destroyed the system of book record economy as to the resident sourpuss in germany bitter may be better but here its just plain stinkin thinkin tom

via robot wisdom maybe you uc folk know these people URL working at lewis clark college the university of california at berkeley the university of california at santa barbara and stanford university the interdisciplinary team confirmed speculation that the gecko s amazing climbing ability depends on weak molecular attractive forces called van der waals forces rejected a competing model based on the adhesion chemistry of water molecules and discovered that the gecko s adhesive depends on geometry not surface chemistry in other words the size and shape of the tips of gecko foot hairs not what they are made of determine the gecko s stickiness to verify its experimental and theoretical results the gecko group then used its new data to fabricate prototype synthetic foot hair tips from two different materials both artificial setal tips stuck as predicted notes autumn assistant professor of biology at lewis clark college in portland ore our initial prototypes open the door to manufacturing the first biologically inspired dry adhesive microstructures which can have widespread applications

bottom line the late senate minority leader certainly would have endorsed the meaning behind the phrase but it is questionable that he ever coined it an interesting link courtesy of the harrow report there s no written evidence so far that senator everett dirksen is the source of the infamous quote attributed to him it s kind of astounding that there is enough general social consensus NUMBER of all queries makes it a very faq and eyewitness reporting without a single written source what the essay below doesn t seem to answer though is what the earliest attributed quote in print by any other writer is i d naturally be much more skeptical if the quote emerged after his death rk URL a billion here a billion there did dirksen ever say a billion here a billion there and pretty soon you re talking real money or anything very close to that perhaps not based on an exhaustive search of the paper and audio records of the dirksen congressional center staffers there have found no evidence that dirksen ever uttered the phrase popularly attributed to him archivists undertook the search after studying research statistics showing that more than NUMBER percent of inquiries have to do with the quote or its variations here is what they examined all of the existing audio tapes of the famed ev and charlie and ev and jerry shows all newspapers clippings in the dirksen papers about NUMBER NUMBER pages of dirksen s own speech notes transcripts of his speeches and media appearances transcripts of republican leadership press conferences and dirksen s statements on the senate floor as documented in the congressional record although dirksen rarely prepared the text of a speech preferring to rely on notes he did employ brief phrases to remind him of a particular turn of phrase for example in referring to the public debt or excessive government spending dirksen would jot the word pothole to remind him to tell the following story on this occasion in reference to the debt ceiling as i think of this bill and the fact that the more progress we make the deeper we go into the hole i am reminded of a group of men who were working on a street they had dug quite a number of holes when they got through they failed to puddle or tamp the earth when it was returned to the hole and they had a nice little mound which was quite a traffic hazard not knowing what to do with it they sat down on the curb and had a conference after a while one of the fellows snapped his fingers and said i have it i know how we will get rid of that overriding earth and remove the hazard we will just dig the hole deeper congressional record june NUMBER NUMBER p NUMBER on the same occasion dirksen relied on yet another spending story one he labeled cat in the well one time in the house of representatives a colleague told me a story about a proposition that a teacher put to a boy he said johnny a cat fell in a well NUMBER feet deep suppose that cat climbed up NUMBER foot and then fell back NUMBER feet how long would it take the cat to get out of the well johnny worked assiduously with his slate and slate pencil for quite a while and then when the teacher came down and said how are you getting along johnny said teacher if you give me another slate and a couple of slate pencils i am pretty sure that in the next NUMBER minutes i can land that cat in hell if some people get any cheer our of a NUMBER billion debt ceiling i do not find much to cheer about concerning it congressional record june NUMBER NUMBER p NUMBER but there are no such reminders for the a billion here a billion there tag line as there surely should have been given dirksen s note making tendencies he spoke often and passionately about the debt ceiling federal spending and the growth of government yet there is no authoritative reference to the billion phrase the chief evidence in support of dirksen making the statement comes from people who claim to have heard him the library of congress for example cites someone s personal observation on the campaign trail as evidence the dirksen center has received calls from people who heard dirksen say those words some even providing the date of the event but cross checking that information with the records has so far turned up nothing in the way of confirmation the closest documented statement came at a joint senate house republican leadership press conference on march NUMBER NUMBER when dirksen said the favorite sum of money is NUMBER billion a billion a year for a fatter federal payroll a billion here a billion there emd papers republican congressional leadership file f NUMBER but the and pretty soon you re talking real money is missing in another close call the new york times january NUMBER NUMBER quoted dirksen look at education two and one half billion a billion for this a billion for that a billion for something else three to five billion for public works you haven t got any budget balance left you ll be deeply in the red cited in byron hulsey s everett dirksen and the modern presidents ph d dissertation may NUMBER university of texas p NUMBER of course the dirksen papers do not document completely the late senator s comments for example the center that bears his name does not have his testimony before committees their collection of congressional records ends in NUMBER omitting the last four years of dirksen s life and career he might have employed the phrase only late although witnesses claim he said it throughout his career dirksen s campaign speeches tended not to produce transcripts only sketchy notes or abbreviated newspaper accounts dirksen also held center stage before the video age meaning that many remarks particularly those in campaigns escaped capture bottom line the late senate minority leader certainly would have endorsed the meaning behind the phrase but it is questionable that he ever coined it my permanent email address is khare URL

uw email robot said what is mime i know what mime is godammit since mime is only a few years old a few time to update pine robot blurb txt on URL i think has anyone figured out what s up with this does someone out there think that fork needs some mime tutoring j

justin mason writes has anyone figured out what s up with this does someone out there think that fork needs some mime tutoring i was puzzled at first but i think i understand what happened first i approved the post because it didn t appear to be spam even though it wasn t from a member i thought it was odd that someone wanted to send the mime blurb to the list but it was not really that different from causing the new york times web site to send a story to the list except that the bits here are antediluvian but old bits are a problem to be solved by social opporobrium not technical constraints but i think what actually happened is that some idiot got infected by klez and had both fork and the pine robot autoresponder address in their mailbox or addressbook so klez forged mail from fork URL to the autoresponder which responded to fork

now to do this we all know they have to be cracking the strong crypto used on all transaction in order to process them so this has some preaty heavy implications unless it s just bs anybody buying a box like this is undoubtledly going to integrate it into their crypto infrastructure what s the point of putting in a box like this if it s not an active participant in your security framework or you could just not bloat it NUMBERx to begin with nah that was the whole point of xml afterall to sell more cpus much like oracle s use of java allows them to sell NUMBERx more cpu licenses due to the performance hit blah blah blah the marketing fud gets compounded by the beberg fud talk about NUMBERx bloat again see above they _are_ claiming to decode the crypto what gives you the impression that s what they re doing that s not what the text says it s largely fluff anyway our xgNUMBER execution core converts xml to machine code said kelly mmmmmmmmmmm machine code never a good idea uhhh fundamentally it s all machine code kelly s comment seems more like drivel from a clueless marketroid than anything of technical concern having what appears to be a silicon xml router would be a cool thing having one integrated with your crypto environment would kick ass let it deserialize decrypt repackage the xml before handing it off to the app servers the question of course is does it work with actual applications in the field without tremendously reworking them somehow i doubt it bill kearney

o owen byrne owen permafrost net writes o from the local paper this morning canadians eat about seven o times as many doughnuts per capita as americans d oh if we had more variety of franchise food than the wendys kfc pizzahut tacobell timhorton s monopoly they are all pepsi under the hood aren t they things might be different when a new yorker has biscotti we have a timbit when a parisienne has a croissant we have a timbit because that s all we can buy the usa is a nation founded on creative free enterprise entrepreneurs canada is a nation built on monopolies gary lawrence murphy garym teledyn com teledynamics communications inc business advantage through community software URL computers are useless they can only give you answers pablo picasso

gary lawrence murphy if we had more variety of franchise food than the wendys kfc pizzahut tacobell timhorton s monopoly the usa is a nation founded on creative free enterprise entrepreneurs canada is a nation built on monopolies things aren t all that bad i remember vancouver as having a broad variety of good local eateries and toronto as having a variety of good local strip joints i never ate a doughnut in canada so i cannot vouch for their quality i could live in either of these cities quite happily but carolyn doesn t like cold weather personally i almost never eat at a franchise restaurant usually you can find better fare or cheaper fare and often both at a local restaurant _________________________________________________________________ join the world s largest e mail service with msn hotmail URL

joebar wrote c is more reliable than java depends who writes it one guy will write a bug every NUMBER lines another every NUMBER lines put them both on a project and that will average out to a bug every NUMBER NUMBER lines observation type trivial irrespective of language pick the one that best suits what you re trying to do observation r

r russell turpin deafbox hotmail com writes r things aren t all that bad i remember vancouver as having a r broad variety of good local eateries and toronto as having a r variety of good local strip joints i haven t been to van in years but i do know that in toronto outside of the small deeply ethnic neighbourhoods if you stray more than NUMBER feet from wellesley and jarvis or queen and spadina you re in doughnutland there s far more like the eateries in the eaton centre than there are quaint cafes like mccaul north of dundas and the rare little eateries are not brimming with lunchtime traffic you can still find a seat at noon at village by the grange when most of toronto does not live in those neighbourhoods but instead lives in scarborough malton mississauga and markham franchisevilles you will quickly see that one or two trendy strips does not save an entire nation gary lawrence murphy garym teledyn com teledynamics communications inc business advantage through community software URL computers are useless they can only give you answers pablo picasso

r robert harley harley argote ch writes r depends who writes it one guy will write a bug every NUMBER lines r another every NUMBER lines put them both on a project and that r will average out to a bug every NUMBER NUMBER lines and a java program due to the extensive class libraries will weigh in at NUMBER the number of lines of the equivalent c program qed gary lawrence murphy garym teledyn com teledynamics communications inc business advantage through community software URL computers are useless they can only give you answers pablo picasso

mike masnick wrote why is it that people don t understand that giving stuff away is a perfectly acceptable tactic in capitalist businesses in many places it s called advertising buy one get one free i ll just take the free one ok no oh so actually it s not free at all you re just bundling with a unit price half of what s advertised how about some truth in that advertising r

glm wrote and a java program due to the extensive class libraries will weigh in at NUMBER the number of lines of the equivalent c program qed quod erat not demonstrandum at all there are massive amounts of libraries for c fortran and so on to pick an obvious example if you want to do linear algebra then java isn t a serious candidate at all furthermore plenty of bugs occur in the libraries too at a lower rate due to more users having been bitten by them but they are much harder for you to fix than in your own code why do so many people outside of sun s marketing department consider java to be write once debug everywhere r

on tue NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER at NUMBER NUMBER joseph s barrera iii wrote c is more reliable than java both are reliable reliability is more a function of the software engineer i ve written complicated mission critical server software in java that will run without a hiccup as long as the unix box it is sitting on is running same with c for processes that are running months at a time and in my case constantly touching databases and doing lots of low level network stuff reliability is obtained by making sure every conceivable problem and problems you didn t conceive of recovers to a clean safe process state so that things keep running i e it is a design programming issue that said we usually prototype serious systems in java and then re implement them in c if we have time java doesn t scale well as a language for server apps though not for the reasons usually offered the problem is that for high end server apps you really need fairly detailed and low level control of system resources to get around bottlenecks that show up relatively quickly in languages that don t give you access to it you can squeeze several times the performance out of a c server program than a java one simply by being able to finely tune or more frequently bypass the system resource management nonetheless this is not a significant factor for most applications you could conceivably develop in either language as most aren t limited by raw performance scalability james rogers jamesr URL

great this is half of what i d need to become spider man now all i need to figure out is how to do that spider web shooting thing jim original message from fork admin URL mailto fork admin URL on behalf of eirikur hallgrimsson sent monday august NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER pm to fork subject gecko adhesion finally sussed via robot wisdom maybe you uc folk know these people URL working at lewis clark college the university of california at berkeley the university of california at santa barbara and stanford university the interdisciplinary team confirmed speculation that the gecko s amazing climbing ability depends on weak molecular attractive forces called van der waals forces rejected a competing model based on the adhesion chemistry of water molecules and discovered that the gecko s adhesive depends on geometry not surface chemistry in other words the size and shape of the tips of gecko foot hairs not what they are made of determine the gecko s stickiness to verify its experimental and theoretical results the gecko group then used its new data to fabricate prototype synthetic foot hair tips from two different materials both artificial setal tips stuck as predicted notes autumn assistant professor of biology at lewis clark college in portland ore our initial prototypes open the door to manufacturing the first biologically inspired dry adhesive microstructures which can have widespread applications

on wed NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER at NUMBER NUMBER gary lawrence murphy wrote and a java program due to the extensive class libraries will weigh in at NUMBER the number of lines of the equivalent c program qed my typical java to c conversion doesn t increase the lines of code by more than NUMBER and a fair portion of that is the implementation of additional features that drove us to do the conversion in the first place some things are substantially more succinct when written in c than in java c and most other mature languages have an endless collection of libraries i personally don t use anything beyond the core libraries of any language that much though on a tangent i find libraries nearly useless for a great many things due primarily to the fact that most of them are so general that a given non trivial api almost always has a context in which it will function in a pathological manner code reuse is wonderful and all that but libraries frequently make design trade offs that won t work for me even if they theoretically do exactly what i need unfortunately it isn t particularly easy nor does it make a nice simple api to design a library that really is optimizable to a wide range of design cases i ve built a small collection of flexible psuedo polymorphic apis over the years that i tend to use but it is a pretty ugly solution for code reuse when you get right down to it james rogers jamesr URL

so a new family moved in down the street with two kids making us very excited that there might be a child around the same age NUMBER months as our daughter tatum while we re talking to the family we discover that their daughter kiara was born the same day as tatum within two hours in the same exact maternity ward both mothers were undoubtedly in labor at the same time wow jim

at NUMBER NUMBER am NUMBER on NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER jim whitehead wrote great this is half of what i d need to become spider man now all i need to figure out is how to do that spider web shooting thing that and be able to stick yourself upside down on a NUMBER foot ceiling from a standing jump i remember someone recently doing the calculations in kilocalories required to be spiderman somewhere kind of like those flaming processor analyses done a couple of years ago cheers rah r a hettinga mailto rah ibuc com the internet bearer underwriting corporation URL NUMBER farquhar street boston ma NUMBER usa however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity predicting the end of the world has not been found agreeable to experience edward gibbon decline and fall of the roman empire

r robert harley harley argote ch writes r glm wrote and a java program due to the extensive class libraries will weigh in at NUMBER the number of lines of the equivalent c program qed r there are massive amounts of libraries for c fortran and so r on to pick an obvious example if you want to do linear r algebra then java isn t a serious candidate at all if you want to do http c gets pretty muddy curl is about the best choice i ve found but i grant you that no language is the be all and end all i envy some of those posting to this list i ve been in business for NUMBER years and i haven t yet had the luxury of writing every line of code for any project we are always coerced by budgets and time to maximize the amount of work done elsewhere as much as i hate dealing with someone else s blackbox as much as i ve spent sleepless nights second guessing external libs i ve never ever had the luxury to do otherwise it must be wonderful to be responsible for something you are actually responsible for and i am so sick of being blamed for other people s design mistakes maybe there s an archive somewhere i need to know about but i ve been using c since drdobbs first published smallc and yet i ve never found any decent lgpl libs cataloged in such a way that i can just type in the task and get back an api because of javadoc which is by no means perfect java provides me the second best catalog of NUMBERrd party libs second only to perl s cpan perl is one language i also really hate with a passion yet end up using the most for exactly this reason for example take the recent cbc olympics site i needed to roll together a telnet client with a tokenizer perl regex preprocessing a stream to produce parseable xml project that xml into relational databases using only the dtd to generate the rdbms schema and open an xmlrpc interface to read and post items into the news stream where can i find c libs for those components on the webserver we then needed a multithreaded read only http socket which can spawn persistent data caching servlets that periodically refresh themselves over socket connections to the relational database presenting the retreived values through xslt defined transforms and again where can i find such stuff for c or for any other langauge but java wombat servlet spec for perl was inviting but it s not ready for prime time and re inventing that entire shopping list in c is just not feasible for one programmer to do inside of NUMBER weeks when you need c libs or even c libs where s the best place to shop where do you find standards based portable rdbms api odbc how do you evaluate these things without actually fetching every one and trying it out in a perfect universe i d use ocaml or even ruby but i don t see the social infrastructure for either happening during my professional lifetime r why do so many people outside of sun s marketing department r consider java to be write once debug everywhere a collegue at cognos henk called c the nearly portable assembler gary lawrence murphy garym teledyn com teledynamics communications inc business advantage through community software URL computers are useless they can only give you answers pablo picasso

first seen on dave winer s scrpiting news www scripting com details here URL jim

it s official the holidays are here i got html mail from one of the little catalogs i ve been known to purchase from basically the front page of their first holiday catalog must have been released simultaneously with mailing for a delivery target of just after labor day ick eirikur

for example take the recent cbc olympics site i needed to roll together a telnet client with a tokenizer perl regex preprocessing a stream to produce parseable xml project that xml into relational databases using only the dtd to generate the rdbms schema and open an xmlrpc interface to read and post items into the news stream where can i find c libs for those components you open sourced the new components you developed for this project so the next person who comes along won t have to reimplement them right jim

we met a family in our parent baby group with a son born a few minutes before our daughter not unlikely as all members were from the same hospital but this family happened to have lived in the exact same apartment unit a year before we had original message from jim whitehead ejw cse ucsc edu to fork fork xent com sent wednesday august NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER am subject another low probability event so a new family moved in down the street with two kids making us very excited that there might be a child around the same age NUMBER months as our daughter tatum while we re talking to the family we discover that their daughter kiara was born the same day as tatum within two hours in the same exact maternity ward both mothers were undoubtedly in labor at the same time wow jim

j jim whitehead ejw cse ucsc edu writes j you open sourced the new components you developed for this j project so the next person who comes along won t have to j reimplement them right no need all those components already exist either in the java class libraries or from the various java jar collections most of the classes i used came from the jakarta project and apachexml but if it s any consolation my threading of them all together into a newswire server is gpl and available on sourceforge gary lawrence murphy garym teledyn com teledynamics communications inc business advantage through community software URL computers are useless they can only give you answers pablo picasso

eirikur hallgrimsson wrote it s official the holidays are here for which year NUMBER or NUMBER joe

gary s news service at URL has an article on internet saturation let me ask you if you were on a rock in the middle of the atlantic mostly in the dark for half the year wouldn t you like a bit of internet distraction they ve already done the obvious and fiber ringed the island eirikur latest guestimate stats from ireland s nua show a flattening internet population growth it seems there s two kinds of people those who will go online with the status quo and those who won t canada levels out at NUMBER the usa at NUMBER since NUMBER denmark flatlines at NUMBER norway at NUMBER sweden at NUMBER and the uk at NUMBER only iceland continues unfettered beyond NUMBER could this be evidence of a usability barrier if so it s a clear signal that there s as much fortune to be gained from a substantially new internet interface than all that has been gained so far latest guestimate stats from ireland s nua show a flattening internet population growth it seems there s two kinds of people those who will go online with the status quo and those who won t canada levels out at NUMBER the usa at NUMBER since NUMBER denmark flatlines at NUMBER norway at NUMBER sweden at NUMBER and the uk at NUMBER only iceland continues unfettered beyond NUMBER could this be evidence of a usability barrier if so it s a clear signal that there s as much fortune to be gained from a substantially new internet interface than all that has been gained so far URL

gary lawrence murphy said i envy some of those posting to this list i ve been in business for NUMBER years and i haven t yet had the luxury of writing every line of code for any project we are always coerced by budgets and time to maximize the amount of work done elsewhere for consultancy integration or open source work sure perl python or java with free use of external libs makes a lot of sense imo i should note that normally when i ve used c or c in the past it s dictated by the fact that i would be working on a commercial product written from the ground up where the code you re generating is important ip for the company in this case using a third party lib often is not an option or would be a pita licensing wise also cutting out third party dependencies can reduce the risk of oops there goes the company that makes that library i depend on now to shop around for something vaguely similar figure out what bugs it s got rewrite my code to use the new api and hope for the best this can be a very big deal for obvious reasons open source knockers should note that this is not a problem when using lgpl d libs j

eirikur hallgrimsson said let me ask you if you were on a rock in the middle of the atlantic mostly in the dark for half the year wouldn t you like a bit of internet distraction they ve already done the obvious and fiber ringed the island btw did they do the same as they did in ireland namely spend millions burying copious miles of dark fibre then neglect to provide any way of actually hooking it up to any isps j frustrated

geege wrote this message was sent to you from URL geege would like you to read the story below URL title a first look at the NUMBER NUMBER ghz pentium NUMBER summary latest rambus memory plus fast bus appear to give intel s newest pNUMBER the jolt it needs geege attached the following message ha ha ha harley rambus earns it stay on top of the world of information technology with your own free subscription to our specialized newsletters subscribe now at URL NUMBER the overclockers have given it another jolt perhaps to potential sales and maybe sales of liquid nitrogen via slashdot owen URL päivämäärä NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER artikkeli intel northwood NUMBER NUMBERghz tekijä sampsa kurri mailto sampsa kurri muropaketti com english summary when the intel pentium NUMBER NUMBER NUMBERghz cpu arrived to our testlab we ordered NUMBER liters of liquid nitrogen lnNUMBER NUMBER c and decided to run some tests in very low temperatures after some adjusting and testing we were able to run sisoft sandra cpu and memory benchmarks and pifast benchmark smoothly when the cpu was running at NUMBERmhz we raised the fsb one more step and managed to run succesfully superpi benchmark while cpu was running at NUMBERmhz the result was NUMBER seconds test setup pNUMBER NUMBER NUMBERghz modified asus pNUMBERtNUMBER c samsung pcNUMBER rdram pny geforce NUMBER mxNUMBER and windows xp os check out the pictures

on sun NUMBER sep NUMBER bill stoddard wrote red hat linux advanced server provides many high end features such as support for asynchronous i o now read i o no longer needs to stall your application while waiting for completion can you provide a reference i could find it myself but i m too lazy well i saw it on the compaq testdrive site then had to seriously dig on the redhat site it s in one of their whitepapers URL could it be after NUMBER years without this feature unix finally catches up to windows and has i o that doesnt totally suck for nontrivial apps no way do dev poll and freebsd s kq event driven apis count imho true async io as implemented by windows NUMBER NUMBER and beyond is pretty slick but the programming model is substantially more complex than programming to an event api like dev poll and true async does not buy much if the system call overhead is low as it is with linux i havent used the fbsd poll as it s not portable select and poll still not NUMBER are all that exist in the unix world redhat of course doesnt count as portable either but it s nice they are trying the windows i o model does definately blow the doors off the unix one but then they had select to point at in it s suckiness and anything would have been an improvement unix is just now looking at it s i o model and adapting to a multiprocess multithreaded world so it s gonna be years yet before a posix api comes out of it bottom line is the do stuff when something happens model turned out to be right and the unix look for something to do and keep looking till you find it no matter how many times you have to look is not really working so great anymore adam l duncan beberg URL beberg URL

well beberg unless you re really into anime and actually hold true that dead people can send email i think geege s subject is just dandy especially since she removed herself from the hive that is aol and placed herself unto another but hey geege i think its cute when he worries like that don t you ducks and runs bonus fork points if adam knows what anime i m refering to bb

beberg would you rather mrsrobinson URL into plastics too schuman original message from fork admin URL mailto fork admin URL on behalf of joseph s barrera iii sent sunday september NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER pm to fork subject re revocation of grlygrlNUMBER bitbitch URL wrote well beberg unless you re really into anime and actually hold true that dead people can send email i think geege s subject is just dandy funny you should mention that as i just came back from refilling the green coolant in my navi bonus fork points if adam knows what anime i m refering to i guess i don t get any points do i no didn t think so joe p s we ve just started watching boogiepop phantom the combatant state is your father and your mother your only protector the totality of your interests no discipline can be stern enough for the man who denies that by word or deed

reza b far ebuilt wrote problems why do most computer scientists insist on solving the same problems over and over again when there are some many more important and interesting problems high level to be solved amen doing it in an unecessarily harder way does not make you more of a man or less of a kiddie joe the combatant state is your father and your mother your only protector the totality of your interests no discipline can be stern enough for the man who denies that by word or deed

once we thought of the internet as this thing with infinite capabilities it was basically just a fad that came along missing from the article is the percentage of foreign enrolement i would bet the numbers of students from asia china specificly has gone up quite a bit and is the only thing keeping the overall numbers from plummiting you can t get the chicks with that anymore about time us geeks were outcasts again i was getting sick of hearing about geeks breeding and ending up with autistic children proving that intelligence is a genetic defect and a do not breed flag adam l duncan beberg URL beberg URL tech s major decline college students turning away from bits and bytes by ellen mccarthy washington post staff writer tuesday august NUMBER NUMBER page eNUMBER if john yandziak had been entering college a few years ago he might have sought a stake in the new economy he might have dreamed of becoming an ace code cracker for the cia or the national security agency or imagined toppling an empire with revolutionary software maybe he would have tried to use the internet to end world hunger but as yandziak attends his first college classes this week he s harboring different academic ambitions the ashburn native says he wants to do something more social and more interesting than working with computers besides he said while packing for a charlottesville dormitory room you can t get the chicks with that anymore the tech industry s financial problems are enough to bankrupt the dreams of some fair weather students but now there s another consequence of the tech bust enrollment growth in undergraduate computer science departments has come to a halt the number of undergraduates majoring in computer science fell NUMBER percent in NUMBER according to a report by the computing research association and educators in the field say the trend seems to be accelerating with some colleges seeing much greater drops as the new academic year begins the word is out among department deans that the bust s fallout has trickled into the classroom said maria clavez president of the association of computing machinery i ve heard everything from no change to modest decline to more dramatic declines said clavez who will become the dean of science and engineering at princeton university in january it can be hard to see this because at some colleges the number of people who want to study computer science so far exceeds the available space but it is going to have an effect at virginia tech enrollment of undergraduates in the computer science department will drop NUMBER percent this year to NUMBER at george washington university the number of incoming freshmen who plan to study computer science fell by more than half this year interest in undergraduate computer science programs had grown rapidly in the past decade in NUMBER schools with phd programs in computer science and computer engineering granted NUMBER NUMBER degrees according to the computing research association the numbers rose through NUMBER when NUMBER NUMBER degrees were awarded the labor department projects that software engineering will be the fastest growing occupation between NUMBER and NUMBER with other computer related industries trailing close behind but in the short term that growth may slow based on the changes among college students for example NUMBER of the NUMBER NUMBER plus undergraduates studying information technology and engineering at george mason university were computer science majors last year this year the enrollment in that major is down to NUMBER although a newly created and more general information technology major has attracted NUMBER students having it ease off for a while is a bit of a relief said lloyd griffith dean of george mason s information technology and engineering school particularly with the field as it has been they don t want to spend four years on something and then not get a job freshman enrollment for the university of maryland s computer science major is expected to be about NUMBER this fall down from NUMBER last year maryland decreased its total freshman enrollment by NUMBER percent but that alone does not account for the drop said steve halperin dean of maryland s college of computer mathematical and physical sciences we are seeing a decrease in the number of freshmen who are declaring their interest in pursuing computer science as a major halperin said that s a factual statement but i would say that at this point we don t expect to see a decrease in the number of graduates many of the kids who are no longer expressing an interest in majoring in cs would have fallen off yandziak who began at the university of virginia on saturday is not convinced that s the case he graduated in the top NUMBER percent of his class with a NUMBER NUMBER grade point average and nailed the highest possible score on his advanced placement exam in computer science all of my classes have been easy for me math and sciences were always fun so i looked for professions in which i could use those things yandziak said i m just not sure i want my life to be immersed in technology i want to do something that will contribute to the practical world harris n miller president of the information technology association of america said the last time there was a dearth of computing professionals salaries skyrocketed and workers benefited from the labor shortage there was a tremendous imbalance in the late NUMBERs potentially you have the same sort of thing going on right now people are saying i don t need this kind of it training right now miller said our concern as an industry is that if they begin to again see major declines in enrollment down the road four years as the economy picks up once again companies are going to find themselves in a shortage situation economic potential weighs heavily in many student career choices but other factors including program difficulty personal interests and social influences also come into play said judy hingle director of professional development at the american college counseling association the perception of computer science as an isolating nerdy profession is one that many in the industry have tried to squelch that stereotype went underground during the tech bubble but reemerged during the bust all the hipness is gone yandziak said once we thought of the internet as this thing with infinite capabilities it was basically just a fad that came along lamont thompson a recent graduate of calvin coolidge senior high school in the district is headed to morehouse college in atlanta to study business marketing with the intention of going into real estate development technology comes natural to people my age it s not fascinating anymore thompson said to be honest with you when i think computer science i think of some guy sitting behind a computer all day in a dark room it s a necessity but i wouldn t take it any further

on sun NUMBER sep NUMBER joseph s barrera iii wrote reza b far ebuilt wrote problems why do most computer scientists insist on solving the same problems over and over again when there are some many more important and interesting problems high level to be solved amen like what exactly all the problems are in chemisty and physics and biology and mathematics we re just enablers doing it in an unecessarily harder way does not make you more of a man or less of a kiddie yes but doing it an order of magnitude or NUMBER easier does which with the way things are now is not hard at all to do adam l duncan beberg URL beberg URL

on sun NUMBER sep NUMBER mr fork wrote NUMBER hardware is getting so fast that i m not sure if the performance difference between java and c c are relevant any more when out of the box parsing transform of xml in java is NUMBERx slower than c on the same hardware then it does matter yea and that on top of the NUMBERx of all the parsing engines over just bigendian ing it and passing the data NUMBERx in the raw then it really matters adam l duncan beberg URL beberg URL

on sunday NUMBER september NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER pm reza b far ebuilt wrote NUMBER java is not just a programming language the astounding thing about java is that despite all of the many significant points in its favor it still manages to suck and break across jvms i was really looking forward to being able to use a better language like java and get it compiled to real platform specific binaries via the gnu compiler collection but this seems to have never really gotten anywhere because it would require porting or reimplementing libraries which are probably not source available or tolerably licenced when i looked at what i had to do to gcc and link hello world i lost interest who the hell is writing the runtimes anyway why are perl python ruby more reliable in a world where the macs all ran emulated NUMBERk code utterly reliably it s just hard to accept that there can t be a single portable jvm that just works my opinion is biased because of the disgraceful state of non windoze browser java implementations eirikur

use this address instead please prerogatively geege

on mon sep NUMBER NUMBER at NUMBER NUMBER NUMBERam NUMBER eirikur hallgrimsson wrote my opinion is biased because of the disgraceful state of non windoze browser java implementations horrors applets are kinda sucky the cool kids are using java to write server applications not browser craplets the giggle inducing irony of the whole java thing is how sun s strategy backfired they produced a platform that was supposed to dwell on the client side where it would commoditize those clients instead it turns out to be the perfect language to write server applications in and it has successfully commoditized servers ooops njl

with the increasing prevalence of web services not that they are always a good thing i doubt that parsing xml will be something that will remain at the java application layer for long recent threads here on fork indicating the move towards hardware parsing or this code even become part of the native implementation of java on various platforms reza b far original message from fork admin URL mailto fork admin URL on behalf of adam l beberg sent sunday september NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER pm to mr fork cc fork URL subject re java is for kiddies on sun NUMBER sep NUMBER mr fork wrote NUMBER hardware is getting so fast that i m not sure if the performance difference between java and c c are relevant any more when out of the box parsing transform of xml in java is NUMBERx slower than c on the same hardware then it does matter yea and that on top of the NUMBERx of all the parsing engines over just bigendian ing it and passing the data NUMBERx in the raw then it really matters adam l duncan beberg URL beberg URL

of course they had to do this after we purcahsed these all on vhs and yes it is now run by the great evil empire known as disney but we got the new school house rocks dvd anyway and man is it an amazing item first off my NUMBER year old has been singing them since she was NUMBER second off these are much easier to rip to divx and mpNUMBER third new songs remastered originals and other dvd goodies its a NUMBER dvd set so its well worth the NUMBER we paid for it even if you dont have kids run do not walk to pick this one up man i would sure love to have a nix rocks for the kids

microsoft has announced that they plan to remove java from windows they took it out of xp already and it has to be installed with a service pack somehow i can t imagine them removing the ability to run c programs they removed their java vm they didn t remove the ability to run java programs anybody is free to develop their own java vm and make it kick ass as someone said earlier in the thread nobody is capable or willing to do that i ve done a bunch of java and haven t run into huge problems running the same bytecode across solaris or winNUMBERk what actual problems have people actually run into actually

original message from fork admin URL mailto fork admin URL on behalf of robert harley sent monday september NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER am to fork URL subject re java is for kiddies reza b far wrote this thread kind of surprises me i started coding with c then c and moved on to java and i think that robert harley wrote looks like a case of my experience is comprehensive your s is anecdotal they don t know what they re talking about well i sure don t claim that i think most people on fork probably have more programming knowledge than i do there s lots of experience out here reza b far wrote NUMBER the people who pay the wages don t give a flyin heck what programming language you write things in they just want it to work robert harley wrote in my experience they do care it has to work certainly and in particular it has to work with what they ve already got and it has to work on client s systems my limited experience of java started a few years ago when support on linux was so terrible that i ran away screaming and haven t come back yet well i think until recently support for most things on linux was kind of shady things have got much better you re right in that the jdk used to suck on linux but then imho linux is still maturing or at least development tools for linux are maturing i ve been developing a few server side apps that run on linux recently with jdk NUMBER NUMBER x and they ve had no problems with great performance robert harley worte microsoft has announced that they plan to remove java from windows they took it out of xp already and it has to be installed with a service pack somehow i can t imagine them removing the ability to run c programs hmmm do you really think that ms is pulling out java because it s a bad programming language or application platform you don t think this has anything to do with net being a competitor to java do you or that ms has basically copied java with some additional features and called it c isn t that alone an indication that they actually do think that a vm is the right way to go for most high level applications reza b far wrote NUMBER c and c forces the developer to solve problems such as memory management over and over again robert harley wrote can t say i spend any noticeable amount of time on memory management issues apart from the fact that i frequently need NUMBER gb hmmm again you re telling me that you ve never had a nasty bug that took you a couple of days to track down that had to do with a memory leak i am not the best c c programmer not even close but i ve known really good ones and even they have nasty bugs that have to do with memory management however occasional they may be it s about design patterns architecture high level stuff robert harley wrote if your problem just requires application of a design pattern to solve then it s trivial anyway irrespective of language wow so you re telling me that unless the application involves bit counting it s trivial what about the application itself what about high level problems such as task distribution work flow etc aren t most high level problems solved with high level solutions like design patterns or do you solve high level problems by writing optimal c c code for example do you think that most people working on collaboration frameworks there are lots of them on this list are working on writing an operating system with assembly that provides for a collaborative environment i am amazed by the amount of time wasted by people talking about low level problems that have been solved NUMBER million times over and over and over again robert harley wrote you appear to be gratuitously asserting that c programmers waste time on irrelevant low level problems and java programmers don t depends entirely on the programmer not the language i can see how you could infer this however what i believe to really be the case is that java is one of the best languages for writing large applications with many components that involves the collaboration of more than three programmers in those cases it s always very hard to get the programmers to agree on api s memory management techniques etc with java the jcp takes care of the discussions so that you don t sit around in a long meeting trying to decide what api to use to hook up to a database jdbc or a messaging bus jms NUMBER java is not just a programming language it s also a platform robert harley wrote buzzword yikes have you written db code with c c for different databases just an example tried porting a persistence layer from windows to unix say you have informix running on solaris and you want to port to windows with ms sql bad idea but for the sake of the example would you rather deal with jdbc port or c c port that uses informix drivers and now you have to use odbc a monolithic set of api s or a crap load of different api s slicing and dicing the same problems NUMBER different ways robert harley wrote unsupported assertion so are you saying that there is a standard set of api s for c c for everything aside to the minimal ansi stuff is there a standard way of dealing with c c applications for various domain problems messaging database persistence etc that rivals java i d like to know if there is one accepted by everyone who writes c c in that case i claim ignorance not suggesting that java is the golden hammer just that c c is overkill for most things i even coded in vb but vb is a true disgrace to programming it s just lame java is object oriented no flame mail from the anti oo people please that is a religious discussion and relatively clean and i don t think that every kid can write a well designed java program kids typically don t understand various design patterns and principles to my experience they actually tend to think more of the low level problems wanting to rewrite and reinvent the world a tendency that is much more possible imho in c c than in java due to existence of standard api s

on mon NUMBER sep NUMBER reza b far ebuilt wrote hmmm again you re telling me that you ve never had a nasty bug that took you a couple of days to track down that had to do with a memory leak i am not the best c c programmer not even close but i ve known really good ones and even they have nasty bugs that have to do with memory management however occasional they may be ok noone has been tool less for memory management for a long time most systems you just add a flag and memory is tracked that s how i ve always done it or worst case yuo have to run it through one of the NUMBER NUMBEReNUMBER tools where you simply recompile and it it tells you where the leaks are memory management is a non issue for anyone that has any idea at all how the hardware functions granted this takes NUMBER minutes to go over and so is far beyond the scope of the learn java in NUMBER minutes without thinking book every java programmer learned from adam l duncan beberg URL beberg URL

on mon NUMBER sep NUMBER reza b far ebuilt wrote with the increasing prevalence of web services not that they are always a good thing i doubt that parsing xml will be something that will remain at the java application layer for long recent threads here on fork indicating the move towards hardware parsing or this code even become part of the native implementation of java on various platforms ok so you get the xml toss it through hardware and turn it back into a struct object whatever you call your binary data i agree this is the way things will go as xml parsing has just too much overhead to survive in the application layer so why turn it into xml in the first place becasue it gives geeks something to do and sells xml hardware accelerators and way more cpus is there anyone out there actually doing anything new that actually improves things anymore or are they all too scared of the fact that improvements put people out of work and cut NUMBER is the creators adam l duncan beberg URL beberg URL

sunday i drove from portland down to the woodburn dragstrip to check out the nedra nationals URL the electric cars motorcycles and dragsters had some great times and i ended up with a few pics and a nice deep burn john waylan who was interviewed in wired a few years back pulled out a NUMBER NUMBER second run in the quarter mile NUMBERmph on a battery pack that hasn t been broken in yet he expects to break his record next year topping his NUMBER NUMBERsec NUMBERmph run a couple of years ago he s shooting for a NUMBER second run john also took out a replica NUMBER oldsmobile for a respectable NUMBERmph run remember we started out with electric cars near the end of the day kilacycle took the track with an amazing NUMBERmph run talk about a crotch rocket ross on saturday august NUMBER NUMBER at NUMBER NUMBER am adam l beberg wrote personally i don t think americans will ever go electric there is too much testosterone linked to the auto as the male s primary form of compesating for other things see now that s a job for you femanists teach women not to fall for a fast environmentally destuctive vehicle you should only have to rewrite NUMBER of the genome

from anders eriksson aeriksson fastmail fm date mon NUMBER aug NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER just cvs up ed and nowadays catch up unseen is __extremely__ slow on large NUMBER msgs unseen sequences anybody else having this problem i ll take the blame the reason i suspect is that we re needlessly reading the sequences file multiple times because of other sequences i need to make the code much smarter about handling that file but first i have a few other fish to fry in my rather large patch that s on it s way no panic i m all for cleaning things up before getting it optimized okay this fix is now checked in chris chris garrigues URL vircio URL NUMBER congress suite NUMBER austin tx NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER world war iii the wrong doers vs the evil doers

from robert elz kre munnari oz au date thu NUMBER aug NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER date wed NUMBER aug NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER from chris garrigues cwg dated NUMBER NUMBERfaNUMBERd deepeddy com message id NUMBER NUMBER tmda deepeddy vircio com i can t reproduce this error ah i think i just found the cause nmh is broken which is probably obvious from my previous mail the man page for pick and how it always used to work was that list would list messages matched nolist would supress that if sequence is given the default is nolist without sequence the default is list that s all fine but it appears now which probably means i had never used pick since i upgraded nmh last that what counts is the order of list and sequence that is if sequence comes after list the list gets turned off sequence implies nolist instead of just making nolist the default an easy workaround for this is to make sure that list is the last arg given to pick so if i run delta pick inbox lbrace lbrace subject ftp rbrace rbrace NUMBER NUMBER sequence mercury list NUMBER which is just as it should be hmmm i assume you re going to report this to the nmh folks chris chris garrigues URL vircio URL NUMBER congress suite NUMBER austin tx NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER world war iii the wrong doers vs the evil doers

from chris garrigues cwg exmh deepeddy com date thu NUMBER aug NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER from j w ballantine jwb homer att com date wed NUMBER aug NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER i cvs ed the unseen sequences changes and installed them and have only one real issue i use the unseen window rather than the exmh icon and with the new code i can t seem to be able to how many unseen when when i have the main window open is not really necessary hmmm i stole the code from unseenwin but i never tested it since i don t use that functionality consider it on my list of things to check well unfortunately i appear to be using a window manager that doesn t support the icon window however i did fix some bugs in the related hide when empty functionality which may solve the issue you may need to remove unseen from the always show sequences to make this work if so let me know so i can put that in the help window for icon window as it already is for hide when empty chris chris garrigues URL vircio URL NUMBER congress suite NUMBER austin tx NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER world war iii the wrong doers vs the evil doers

from chris garrigues cwg exmh deepeddy com date thu NUMBER aug NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER okay catchup unseen is something that i don t use often but i can certainly reproduce this i ll dig into it it s probably simple try it now chris chris garrigues URL vircio URL NUMBER congress suite NUMBER austin tx NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER world war iii the wrong doers vs the evil doers

thanks tony but i think doing it using component files will get a signature by default but i have many diferent signatures and i want to insert one of that signatures using a keyboard command so for a message i will insert a signature but for another message i will insert a different signature is it possible i am using sedit for my messages thanks ulises hi is there a command to insert the signature using a combination of keys and not to have sent the mail to insert it then i simply put it them into my nmh component files components replcomps forwcomps and so on that way you get them when you are editing your message also by using comps files for specific folders you can alter your sig per folder and other tricks see the docs for n mh for all the details there might must also be a way to get sedit to do it but i ve been using gvim as my exmh message editor for a long time now i load it with a command that loads some email specific settings eg to syntax colour highlight the headers and quoted parts of an email it would be possible to map some vim keys that would add a sig or even give a selection of sigs to choose from and there are all sorts of ways to have randomly chosen sigs somewhere at rtfm mit edu ok here we go URL warning it s old may NUMBER regards ulises hope this helps cheers tony _______________________________________________ exmh users mailing list exmh users URL URL _______________________________________________ exmh users mailing list exmh users URL URL

what s the trick again to have it default to showing text plain instead of html harlan _______________________________________________ exmh users mailing list exmh users URL URL

on sat NUMBER aug NUMBER harlan harlan feinstein wrote harlan what s the trick again to have it default to showing harlan text plain instead of html in exmh exmh defaults add mime_alternative_prefs text plain text enriched text richtext text html order possible alternatives from _your_ most preferred to least preferred hal _______________________________________________ exmh users mailing list exmh users URL URL

date thu NUMBER aug NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER from chris garrigues cwg dated NUMBER NUMBERaNUMBER deepeddy com message id NUMBER NUMBER tmda deepeddy vircio com hmmm i assume you re going to report this to the nmh folks yes i will sometime after i look at the nmh sources and see what they have managed to break and why but we really want exmh to operate with all the versions of nmh that exist don t we the patch to have exmh do the right thing whether this bug exists or not is trivial so i d suggest including it patch follows i have no idea why the sequences were being added after the message list before not that it should make any difference to nmh or mh but since i stopped doing that the variable msgs isn t really needed any more rather than assigning pick msgs to msgs and then using msgs the code could just use pick msgs where msgs is now used this is just a frill though so i didn t change that kre pick tcl fri aug NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER usr local lib exmh NUMBER NUMBER pick tcl sat aug NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER proc pick_it global pick exmh set cmd list exec pick exmh folder list set cmd list exec pick exmh folder set inpane NUMBER set hadpane NUMBER for set pane NUMBER pane pick panes incr pane NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER set msgs pick msgs foreach s pick sequence lappend msgs sequence s lappend cmd sequence s lappend cmd list exmh_debug pick_it cmd msgs busy pickinner cmd msgs _______________________________________________ exmh workers mailing list exmh workers URL URL

date fri NUMBER aug NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER from chris garrigues cwg dated NUMBER aNUMBERbcNUMBER deepeddy com message id NUMBER NUMBER tmda deepeddy vircio com interesting i don t think this was my bug it appears that msg_change was asked to change to message something like that is quite possible but perviously typing nonsense in didn t cause tracebacks and now it does and the traceback came from the sequence code perviously this would have just caused red messages in the status line complaining about my lousy typing that s probably what it should keep on doing the red part isn t important obviously kre _______________________________________________ exmh workers mailing list exmh workers URL URL

today an apt get upgrade holds back php and submodules like php imap running an apt get install php to see what s up i get apt get install php processing file dependencies done reading package lists done building dependency tree done the following extra packages will be installed curl devel imap imap devel mysql mysql devel php imap php ldap postgresql postgresql devel postgresql libs pspell devel ucd snmp devel ucd snmp utils unixodbc unixodbc devel the following new packages will be installed curl devel imap imap devel mysql mysql devel postgresql postgresql devel postgresql libs pspell devel ucd snmp devel ucd snmp utils unixodbc unixodbc devel the following packages will be upgraded php php imap php ldap NUMBER packages upgraded NUMBER newly installed NUMBER to remove replace and NUMBER not upgraded anyone have an idea what the heck redhat did here and why we re now trying to install a ton of crap i don t want i m hoping someone else has chased this down and could save me time thx te troy engel systems engineer cool as the other side of the pillow _______________________________________________ rpm list mailing list rpm list freshrpms net URL

on thu NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER at NUMBER NUMBER troy engel wrote today an apt get upgrade holds back php and submodules like php imap running an apt get install php to see what s up i get apt get install php processing file dependencies done reading package lists done building dependency tree done the following extra packages will be installed curl devel imap imap devel mysql mysql devel php imap php ldap postgresql postgresql devel postgresql libs pspell devel ucd snmp devel ucd snmp utils unixodbc unixodbc devel the following new packages will be installed curl devel imap imap devel mysql mysql devel postgresql postgresql devel postgresql libs pspell devel ucd snmp devel ucd snmp utils unixodbc unixodbc devel the following packages will be upgraded php php imap php ldap NUMBER packages upgraded NUMBER newly installed NUMBER to remove replace and NUMBER not upgraded anyone have an idea what the heck redhat did here and why we re now trying to install a ton of crap i don t want i m hoping someone else has chased this down and could save me time rh bugzilla NUMBER thats the answer sv _______________________________________________ rpm list mailing list rpm list freshrpms net URL

on thu NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER at NUMBER NUMBER troy engel wrote anyone have an idea what the heck redhat did here and why we re now trying to install a ton of crap i don t want i m hoping someone else has chased this down and could save me time i m told that even our best people occasionally screw up and qa had tested the rpm on an everything install expect a fixed version soon and qa procedures have been adjusted to catch this kind of braindamage in the future there is nothing really wrong with the binary inside the rpm so if you want to nodeps for now it s ok chris kloiber _______________________________________________ rpm list mailing list rpm list freshrpms net URL

hi everybody my name is gilles i m NUMBER and i m french my english is very bad and i m sorry if you do not understand correctly my emails i use linux since NUMBER months before i worked with windows NUMBER pro i enjoy red hat i tried mandrake suse debian slackware and my favorite of all of them is red hat actually i use red hat NUMBER NUMBER i visited the web site freshrpms i congratulated thias for his work and i subscribed to this list for to know more about red hat and rpms news pleased to read u soon gilles nice south of france _______________________________________________ rpm list mailing list rpm list freshrpms net URL

thanks for this information i gave alsa a try couldn t figure out how to enable digital out although i m sure if i put enough time into it could have gotten it working also when playing mpNUMBERs in analog mode every time i switched between mpNUMBERs there was a bit of static noticed a new distribution geared towards audio applications agnula URL uses alsa as well seems though the latest open source emuNUMBERkNUMBER drivers sblive NUMBER NUMBER work fair enough anyone else experience these problems with alsa are there alot of people on this list using alsa regards lance on sat NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER at NUMBER NUMBER angles puglisi wrote fyi this is how i make my alsa rpms some people on the null list did not realize it was pretty easy btw i do this lot since i ve upgraded from rhNUMBER NUMBER to limboNUMBER to limboNUMBER to null all in a week probably forward original mail from angles puglisi angles aminvestments com date NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER pm subject re when are we going to get from angles puglisi angles aminvestments com to limbo list URL subject re when are we going to get date NUMBER aug NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER ok i do this every time i update a kernel the NUMBERst time i added alsa i tried a non root rpom build but the dev things were not made other than that i bet you could do non root the following can be scripted easily NUMBER get a alsa drivers b alas lib and c alsa utils tarballs if upgrading the kernel then you probably have them from your last install NUMBER unpack them somewhere NUMBER for each of them go to the top directory of the unpacked tarball and do configure then look in i m going by memory topdir utils you should see a spec file there do this for the NUMBER tarballs and you get NUMBER spec files NUMBER put the source tarballs in sources and the spec files in specs go in order from a b then c doing rpmbuild ba specs alsa x spec rpm uvh rpms iNUMBER alsa x rpm NUMBER do that in order for the NUMBER spec files and you have just installed the alsa drivers on your system the NUMBERst time you do this you need to put the correct stuff in your modules conf file may take some research then you get the alsa driver and oss compat capabilities or you can choose not to use the oos compat stuff script making the spec then building and upgrading as above and you have no sweat alsa note the null rpmbuild did take some tweaking it does a check for files in the buildroot that you don t specify in your files section in this case there is an extra file going by memory include sys asound h add a line at the end on the install section of the spec file to delete that file and you are good to go gordon messmer yinyang eburg com wrote on fri NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER at NUMBER NUMBER matthias saou wrote probably when red hat linux gets a NUMBER NUMBER kernel until then a few places provide good quality alsa packages but indeed you still have to patch and recompile your kernel not so alsa is build able independently of the kernel maybe some day i ll try alsa never done it yet and that day you can expect all needed packages to appear on URL i d be interested in working with you on that if you want those packages _______________________________________________ limbo list mailing list limbo list URL that s angle as in geometry linux one stanza tip lost sub extracting lines x to y in a text file lost NUMBER use sed syntax sed n x yp textfile txt following will extract lines NUMBER NUMBER from textin fil to textout fil sed n NUMBER NUMBERp textin fil textout fil bish nde vsnl net in _______________________________________________ rpm list mailing list rpm list URL URL

once upon a time angles wrote fyi this is how i make my alsa rpms some people on the null list did not realize it was pretty easy thanks angles i really think i ll give alsa a shot fairly soon then matthias matthias saou world trade center edificio norte NUMBER planta system and network engineer NUMBER barcelona spain electronic group interactive phone NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER NUMBER _______________________________________________ rpm list mailing list rpm list freshrpms net URL