Datasets:

souvorinkg

/

COCA

like 0

@@248641 @!SCOTT-SIMON-HOST : Moorcheeba has been called a " trip hop band , " a " hippy groove band , " and a " deep-dish dub-and-rap group , " but even those terms , whatever they mean , might not capture the mix and mischief in their music . Moorcheeba is a band of brothers , Ross and Paul Godfrey ( ph ) and vocalist Sky Edwards ( ph ) . Their first album was , " Who Can You Trust ? " , which combined elements of British mod music of the ' 60s with Chicago blues hip-hop and L.A. rap Caribbean dub , who knows what else ? You might need a mining engineer to uncover all the veins of influence . Moorcheeba has now produced a second album , " The Big Calm ( ph ) , " which should set critics to their thesauruses -- or is it " thesauri " once again ? -- trying to describe music that can be at once sedate and searing , tranquil and tempestuous , ethereal , edgy . ( BEGIN AUDIO CLIP , MOORCHEEBA , " FRICTION " ) SKY EDWARDS , VOCALIST , SINGING : Nothing I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that this is the day Something is stirring way underneath Because people in night go at last burning rings Friction is turning to fight , friction ... SIMON : That 's from their song " Friction . " We spoke to Moorcheeba from the studios of WBUR in Boston . How would you describe what you do , if you could ? PAUL GODFREY , MOORCHEEBA : It 's a kind of mixture of blues , rock , rap , funk , reggae , jazz , soul , hip-hop @!SIMON Hmm ! Well , I mean , everything ( unintelligible ) EDWARDS : And there 's country thrown in there too . P. GODFREY : Disco , country . ( LAUGHTER ) SIMON : Well , how do all those influences get there . Tell us something ... P. GODFREY : For me personally , it was just being brought up badly . ( LAUGHTER ) Brought up badly with a good record collection @!SIMON Sky ? EDWARDS : Ummh , the radio was always on , and my mum used to play a lot of Slim Whitman . Who @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , honey , honey , kiss me , thrill me , honey , honey " ? Do you know that one ? " Come kiss me ... " ( unintelligible ) SIMON : No , I guess I 'm too young ( unintelligible ) P. GODFREY : That was an Edwardian . ( LAUGHTER ) EDWARDS : Just quite a lot of that , that pop -- they had rock , they have everything , really @!SIMON How did the three of you come together ? P. GODFREY : Sky came around to our flat one day , and sang to us with her acoustic guitar . She was trying to throw us a drum kick @!EDWARDS Yes , I used to play drums when I was in school . P. GODFREY : We ended up hearing Sky sing , and she just had this lovely voice , and Ross and I had been demoing the record companies for ages without a singer @!SIMON Yes . P. GODFREY : And we thought , if we had the right singer , then we 'd probably get a deal built around a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ P. GODFREY : That 's what happened . And then we recorded our first record . Half of it was done in a bedroom , and then the second half was finished in our studio . And then we went on the road . And when we got off the road , we recorded " Big Calm " in three months and went back on the road , and here we are @!SIMON My gosh ! It was that quick ? P. GODFREY : Yes @!EDWARDS Yes . ROSS GODFREY , MOORCHEEBA : It seems much quicker when he says it that quick . ( LAUGHTER ) SIMON : How did you begin to write together , if that 's what you do ? EDWARDS : I remember like initially I was -- because " Trigger Hippy " ( ph ) was our first demo together , that we had this small little computer screen , and then this kind of idea that was going on , and I just remember singing " Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo . " And then I came back a couple of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in , drop out , " and that was " Trigger Hippy . " ( BEGIN AUDIO CLIP , MOORCHEEBA , " TRIGGER HIPPY " ) SIMON : How much technical rigmarole , if I might put it this way , is in your music ? How much of it 's synthesized ? How much is computer-generated ? How much is sampled ? P. GODFREY : The only thing that 's really synthesized is come upon by complete accident , and then sampled and used . ( BEGIN AUDIO CLIP , MOORCHEEBA ) SIMON : Could you explain to me that -- how you did what I guess the technical term is the " reverse solo " in " Big Calm " ? P. GODFREY : There 's about seven different soundtracks from " The Big Calm . " One of them is a backward slide-guitar . We turned the tape upside-down on the 24-track machine , recorded a guitar with a wah-wah ( ph ) unit playing side , with loads of echo on it . Then , when we turned the tape back round , the echo comes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And so , once we 'd played it with a beat , it was completely out of time that you know , this psychedelic ... ( BEGIN AUDIO CLIP , MOORCHEEBA ) And it ended up sounding a little bit like a clarinet or something , which ( unintelligible ) R. GODFREY : Yes . But it was very much inspired by Jimi Hendrix , his method of recording in like 1966 , with our experience ... ( BEGIN AUDIO CLIP , MOORCHEEBA ) SIMON : Are you working on something now ? P. GODFREY : Yes , we 've just been writing on the road , we 've just written a couple of like ten new songs , and we 've got that spectacular track for a movie called " Mod Squad . " And then we go through Europe to do another seven-week tour @!SIMON You 'll be doing the theme for the " Mod Squad " movie . P. GODFREY : I 'm not sure of the theme , but we 're going to do a song , and hopefully it 'll be better than all the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they have in the film , right ? P. GODFREY : Yes @!SIMON Well , that sort of suggests 60s cop-show , British spy- show sensibility in some of your music , does n't it ? P. GODFREY : Is that what the " Mod Squad " was ? I mean , I do n't know anything about " Mod Squad . " Somebody said ( unintelligible ) SIMON : Oh , it was Peggy Lip -- Peggy Lipton -- let me see , maybe someone else in the control room can help me out . No ? Everyone in the control room is younger than I am . ( LAUGHTER ) P. GODFREY : They 're all pleading ignorance @!SIMON They 're pretending to , are n't they ? Yes . It was a cop-show , and it was -- what is it they said ? A white , a black , and a blonde . Peggy Lipton was the blonde . ( LAUGHTER ) Who later married Quincy Jones , right ? R. GODFREY : Right @!SIMON People are shaking their heads , as if , once again @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ P. GODFREY : Yes @!SIMON In any event , it was a -- it was an L.A. cop-show during the ' 60s , ... R. GODFREY : Right @!SIMON ... and no doubt not doing it justice , but yes , it was -- it was of that time and place . P. GODFREY : Oh ! EDWARDS : Cool ! SIMON : You sound thoroughly unmoved . ( LAUGHTER ) EDWARDS : ( Unintelligible ) P. GODFREY : I ca n't -- I ca n't get over the catch-phrase , " a white , a black , and a blonde . " ( LAUGHTER ) Ca n't be -- ca n't believe they used to get away with that sort of stuff . ( LAUGHTER ) SIMON : Well , it was -- the country was different then , you understand . P. GODFREY : We 're big fans of people like Lalo Schiffren ( ph ) , though , and John Barry ( ph ) , obviously , and ... SIMON : Really ? Now , they were the great 60 's movies swelling and lush themes , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ themes . Yes , if we could only afford orchestras that big , it would be great @!EDWARDS Hmmm ! P. GODFREY : We 've always got lots of things to do . It 's just finding the time to do it . ( BEGIN AUDIO CLIP , MOORCHEEBA , " THE SEA " ) EDWARDS , SINGING : Looking to the sea Crowds of people wait for me Seagulls scavenge still ice cream The words vanish within my dream . With myself I stand by the sea Lost control , living free , living ... SIMON : " The Sea " has been compared to Gershwin . P. GODFREY : Really ? SIMON : Yes @!EDWARDS Wow ! That 's great ! P. GODFREY : Oh ! EDWARDS : Talking of Gershwin , we recorded a Gershwin song , recorded " Summertime " ... SIMON : Yes @!EDWARDS ... for " Red Hot Rhapsody " not so long ago @!SIMON Right . What was that like ? Did you approach that with any particular feeling ? P. GODFREY : We were going to make it sound kind of hip-hop @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do it more tranquil . We did it in six- eight like the original , and we had pedal steel guitars on it and synthesizers ... SIMON : Yes . P. GODFREY : And Sky sings in her typical languid tone . ( BEGIN AUDIO CLIP , MOORCHEEBA , " SUMMERTIME " ) ) EDWARDS , SINGING : Summertime and the livin ' is easy Fish are jumping , and the cotton is high Your momma 's rich , and your daddy ... SIMON : The British band Moorcheeba singing " Summertime , " on the " Red Hot and Rhapsody " album . Their latest CD is called " Big Calm . " Moorcheeba joined us from WBUR in Boston . TO PURCHASE AN AUDIOTAPE OF THIS PIECE , PLEASE CALL 888-NPR-NEWS #

@@248741 @!JACKI-LYDEN-HOST : Home detention has become a popular alternative to prison terms for many convicted of nonviolent offenses . Stepping in to fill the demand are private companies . However , critics point to a recent investigation in the state of Maryland which highlights the need for national standards . Susan Goodman prepared this report . JOHN KENT , HEAD , HOME CONFINEMENT SERVICES : All right , William , you got your documents from last week ? WILLIAM JENKINS , HOME INMATE : Yes , sir . SUSAN GOODMAN , REPORTER : John Kent runs Home Confinement Services , a private electronic monitoring business in Rockville , Maryland . He meets every other week with client William Jenkins , who 's serving time for drug possession in a home detention program @!JENKINS The only time I was out of the house last week was for work @!KENT Right . Take me back to the 17th @!JENKINS The 17th @!GOODMAN Jenkins must undergo regular testing for drugs , and wear an electronic ankle bracelet that tracks his coming and going from home . He also has to show proof that he was at his job @!KENT OK , Wednesday @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ With chronic overcrowding in prisons and jails , courts in Maryland and across the country are turning to alternatives like this . Nationwide more than 22,000 people are in electronic monitoring programs . No one is sure how many , but a growing number are supervised by private companies . One reason governments like to use private companies is they can avoid paying for expensive medical care for people who are incarcerated . And improved technology and good marketing by equipment manufacturers has persuaded many entrepreneurs that they can make money in the electronic monitoring business . Jerry Roehmer ( ph ) , a retired probation officer who owns a home monitoring business in Maryland , says that no one even knows how many private firms there are in the state . JERRY ROEHMER , OWNER , HOME MONITORING BUSINESS : No , if I had to take a guess , I would have to say somewhere between seven and 10 in the state of Maryland right now . Maybe two or three blossomed last night while I was asleep . There 's a whole mom and pop industry that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ somebody sees a need and somebody comes in to fill that void , and saying , hey , I can do that @!GOODMAN One reason it 's so easy to get into the business is because Maryland does n't require a license or minimum standards , which is part of the problem , according to critics . They point to recent allegations by the state 's attorney that an employee of a private firm accepted drugs from a client in return for suspending his supervision . This triggered a grand jury investigation , which found insufficient in this case , but after taking a broader look at the industry , found an urgent need for regulation . Another troubling issue is that offenders are allowed to choose which company they use . That means they have an incentive to shop around for the firm with the lowest price and the most lenient reputation . Mark Mower ( ph ) , who heads the Sentencing Project , says this sort of business competition may not be good for the public interest . MARK MOWER , HEAD , THE SENTENCING PROJECT : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a private vendor to minimize the amount of supervision that you do . If you just do the most basic supervision , you 're saving labor costs by not doing anything more intensive @!GOODMAN And , Mower says , it also may not be in the interest of a business to report violations because if an offender goes back to jail , the firm loses a client @!MOWER It does n't mean that most companies to engage in this . But a more unscrupulous company , or one that 's feeling a little pinched for their bottom line , certainly can be tempted to cut corners @!GOODMAN Compounding the problem is that when jails are full , people charged with serious crimes may end up in monitoring programs , sometimes with tragic results . A convicted felon in Maryland was referred to a private monitoring program while awaiting trial for armed robbery . While under supervision , police say he committed three rapes and two robberies . But Roehmer says it 's the courts that are ultimately responsible for keeping dangerous people out of monitoring programs @!ROEHMER If you say @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Yes , I could turn a person down who is violent . Would I turn him down ? I guess that would depend on each individual case , and I 'd have to look at each one . But by my turning him down , that does not put him back in jail or put him back into the court system . That simply means he walks out my door and goes to find another program @!GOODMAN Linda Connolly ( ph ) , who 's been working with the American Corrections Association and others on developing industry standards , says electronic monitoring can be a good tool , but only if it 's part of a comprehensive program that includes counseling and personal supervision . LINDA CONNOLLY , DEVELOPER OF INDUSTRY STANDARDS FOR ELECTRONIC MONITORING : A person has to document everything the client does outside of the home . The equipment only documents what goes on inside the home , when the person comes home and leaves home . So somebody needs to pay attention to what 's going on the rest of the hours , when they 're @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ more than a bare bones program , she says . And wearing an electronic ankle bracelet will never offer the same level of public safety as a jail cell . Even so , she says , that 's better than what happens now , when offenders are released from overcrowded jails without any supervision at all . For National Public Radio , I 'm Susan Goodman . #

@@248841 @!LIANE-HANSEN-HOST : This is NPR 's WEEKEND EDITION . I 'm Liane Hansen . And joining us is puzzlemaster Will Shortz . Hi , Will ! WILL SHORTZ , WEEKEND EDITION PUZZLEMASTER : Hi , Liane ! HANSEN : How are you ? SHORTZ : I 'm great . How about yourself ? HANSEN : Very fine . Thank you very much . We 're in the middle of a two week challenge , the second week of that challenge . And everyone listening , you still have time to enter . We 'll repeat the clue in a few minutes . But for now , you remember , often during two week challenges , we play with people who have submitted correct entries in the past . And a few weeks ago , we acknowledged Kay Baynes ' ( ph ) ninth grade Sunday school class at the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham , Alabama . Well , the entire class can not play with us on the air . So we 're also going to continue our tradition of celebrity puzzle players during our two week challenge . And we 've invited a very special @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ EDITION . Introduce yourself . CARL CASTLE , NPR REPORTER : Carl Castle from National Public Radio News in Washington @!HANSEN And you also do something else that 's sort of news- related , but a little bit more fun ? CASTLE : Yes . We do a program called " Wait , Wait , Do n't Tell Me , " which is a news quiz program . And it 's a weekly show . And that 's a lot of fun @!HANSEN Well , we 'll wait for the applause to die down ... CASTLE : But for that one , I have the answers in front of me @!HANSEN Yeah . We 're putting you on the spot . Now , Will , as many listeners know , I 'm a guest on your program this week , and I wo n't have any answers in front of me . So I think this is justice . And Carl , you 're going to be playing on behalf of Ms. Baynes ' class . So , Will Shortz , meet Carl Castle . Carl Castle , meet Will @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of fun for us @!CASTLE Hi , Will @!SHORTZ Hi , Carl . Carl , this is both for you and Liane @!CASTLE Yes @!SHORTZ I 've brought a game of categories , using the word " gifts " . I 'll give you some categories . For each one , name something in it beginning with each of the letters G-I-F-T-S . For example , if the category were boys ' names , you might say Gary , Isaac , Francis , Thomas , and Sam . Here is number one . It 's an easy one : U.S. states @!CASTLE Georgia @!SHORTZ Yes @!CASTLE Indiana @!SHORTZ Yes @!CASTLE Florida @!SHORTZ Right @!CASTLE Texas @!SHORTZ Yes @!CASTLE South Dakota @!SHORTZ Excellent ! Category two : terms used in football @!CASTLE Goal @!SHORTZ Yes @!CASTLE Well , a touchdown for one @!SHORTZ Yes @!HANSEN Football @!CASTLE Football . Or flag . Or flag @!SHORTZ OK . I and S. CASTLE : Intercept @!SHORTZ Yes . And S. HANSEN : Score @!CASTLE Score @!SHORTZ All right . Your next category is parts of a book @!HANSEN Glossary @!SHORTZ Yes @!CASTLE Index @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ right @!CASTLE And s @!HANSEN Sentences @!SHORTZ Sentences . All right . All right . Fill in the blank . Blank box , B-O-X , blank box @!CASTLE Shadow box @!SHORTZ Yes @!HANSEN Toy box @!SHORTZ Yes @!HANSEN Icebox @!SHORTZ Icebox . Excellent . G and f @!HANSEN G. CASTLE : G. Flower box @!SHORTZ Yes . And G. CASTLE : And G. C'm on Liane @!HANSEN No , Carl . Oh , Will , ... SHORTZ : I 've got two good answers in mind @!HANSEN G-box @!CASTLE G-box @!SHORTZ One would be part of a car @!HANSEN Oh , gear box @!SHORTZ Gear box . And also gift box @!HANSEN Oh , well , yeah , the obvious , you know @!SHORTZ And your last category @!SHORTZ Top 100 U.S. corporations , by sales @!CASTLE I would say , well GE would be one @!SHORTZ Yes @!CASTLE IBM @!SHORTZ Yes @!CASTLE Let 's see . F-T-S @!SHORTZ That 's right @!CASTLE Texaco @!SHORTZ Excellent @!HANSEN Go , Carl ! That 's because you have the business segment in your news every week , every day @!SHORTZ Think automotive @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Ford is the big one . And there are lots of S 's @!HANSEN Yeah , right @!CASTLE Well , I 'm sure there are @!HANSEN But we ca n't think of any of them @!SHORTZ The biggest one , think retail @!CASTLE Sears @!HANSEN Yeah @!SHORTZ Sears Roebuck is correct . Nice work @!HANSEN Well , I think , Carl , between us , we helped each other out @!CASTLE We did fine @!HANSEN Nice work . Nice work . Well , Carl , I guess -- we do n't have Overbies ( ph ) or Stanbergs ( ph ) to give away to you , but we can tell you for playing on behalf of Ms. Baynes ' ninth grade Sunday school class , we 're going to be sending them WEEKEND EDITION lapel pins , as well as a copy of " The Puzzlemaster Presents " which are the riddles that you 've heard here on WEEKEND EDITION SUNDAY . And , Carl , since on NPR 's " Wait , Wait , Do n't Tell Me " winners get the privilege of having your voice recorded @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , I will record your message on your answering machine . There you go ! How 's that ? CASTLE : Wonderful ! What I 've always wanted , Liane . Great ! HANSEN : We 'll also give you a lapel pin that you can wear around these halls with pride @!CASTLE Ah , thanks @!HANSEN Carl Castle is NPR 's newscaster , as well as the host of NPR 's " Wait , Wait , Do n't Tell Me " . The quiz show that is heard on many of these NPR stations . Thanks a lot for taking some time out to play with us , Carl @!CASTLE A lot of fun , Liane . Thanks for asking @!HANSEN All right , Will . Two week challenge for all of our listeners . There 's still time to enter . Give us the clue @!SHORTZ It 's a creative challenge , to compose your own reversible sentence . And a reversible sentence , that 's where you change one letter , so as to completely reverse the sentence 's meaning . For example , " winds were @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the " M " in " mild " to a " W " and say , " winds were wild for our whole vacation . " So send in your best reversible sentence . Entries will be judged on cleverness and elegance , as well as naturalness of syntax . The person who sends the best reversible sentence will play on the air next week , and I hope to present some runner-up sentences for the player to solve @!HANSEN All right . Well , send those entries to WEEKEND EDITION SUNDAY PUZZLE , National Public Radio , 635 Massachusetts Avenue Northwest , Washington , D.C. 20001 . Our e-mail address is puzzle@npr.org The deadline for your entries is the close of business this Wednesday , because of the New Year 's holiday . Please include both your home and work telephone numbers . We 'll call you if you 're the winner . And you will get to play " Puzzle on the Air " with the puzzle editor of the " New York Times " and WEEKEND EDITION 's puzzlemaster , Will Shortz , who joined us this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 'm going to say " Happy New Year " to you now . Over the New Year 's holiday , I 'm actually going to be away . So , happy New Year , Will , and thanks a lot @!SHORTZ Happy New Year , Liane . TO PURCHASE AN AUDIOTAPE OF THIS PIECE , PLEASE CALL 888-NPR-NEWS #

@@248941 ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!ALAN-COLMES-CO-HO : Tonight on " Hannity & Colmes , " Don Imus gears up for a return to the airwaves , but not everyone is celebrating . McCain goes after Mitt Romney , as conservatives pin the flip-flopper label on Hillary . We 'll play the tapes . And our investigative series , " The Price We Pay , " exposes gang warfare among illegal aliens . All that , plus Ted Turner blames the war in Iraq on FOX , and Rush Limbaugh auctions off a letter from Harry Reid . " Hannity & Colmes " starts right now . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!COLMES : Welcome to " Hannity & Colmes . " We get right to our top story tonight . Don Imus is coming back . According to reports , his radio show will be picked up by WABC here in New York later this year . It is the same station where Sean Hannity does the afternoon show . @!SEAN-HANNITY-CO-H : That 's my flagship show . That 's my flagship station . @!COLMES : Your flagship station ... @!HANNITY : That 's correct . @!COLMES : But not everybody is happy @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ people representing two different organizations who still oppose an Imus return . From the National Organization for Women , Sonia Ossorio , and from the National Association of Black Journalists , Eric Deggans . Sonia , let me start with you . Why not give him a second chance ? What 's your objection to putting him on the air ? @!SONIA-OSSORIO-PRE : It 's not a decision I would have made . @!COLMES : Why not ? @!OSSORIO : ABC , we 'll see if it works out for them . @!COLMES : But why not ? @!OSSORIO : Because , you know , he 's had 30 years to be on the air . He 's been a bigot and a racist . @!COLMES : He 's not a bigot and a racist . @!OSSORIO : And a misogynist. @!COLMES : He 's a satirist . He 's doing humor . He 's doing satire . He takes pokes at everybody . @!OSSORIO : A lot of people do n't find it humorous anymore . @!COLMES : Do n't listen to him . How about that ? @!OSSORIO @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , you know , this is how the marketplace played out in this situation . CBS and MSNBC just did n't think he was worth it . The marketplace ... @!COLMES : Either that or maybe they just buckled to advertising pressure and decided they did n't want to give him -- he never even had a chance on those outlets to determine whether or not the free marketplace would accept him or not . He was let go before that even happened . @!OSSORIO : Either way , that 's the marketplace at work . He was on there for 30 years . @!COLMES : That 's not the marketplace at work . Those are employers ... @!OSSORIO : It 's the marketplace at work . @!COLMES : ... I think being cowardly and not giving the marketplace a chance to really decide whether they would -- let me find out what -- Eric , you also object for the same reasons that Sonia does ? @!ERIC-DEGGANS-NATI : The National Association of Black Journalist feels as if Don Imus was not off of the air long enough . It @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!COLMES : How long is the right amount of time ? @(CROSSTALK) @!DEGGANS : He was basically off for a few months . He negotiated a very lucrative end to his contract with CBS Radio , and now he 's returning to the air essentially without fully apologizing for what he actually did wrong . @!COLMES : Well , first of all , he did apologize . He went on Al Sharpton 's show and apologized . Al Sharpton accepts him back . Jesse Jackson accepts him back . The team that he allegedly insulted -- I would say " satirized " -- they accepted his apology . Why ca n't you ? @!DEGGANS : I think Don Imus has n't really apologized for what he 's done wrong . What he did wrong was build a 25- to 30-year broadcasting career on humor that 's racist and that exaggerates stereotypes . @!COLMES : Well , that 's what satire is . But give me an example of ... @!DEGGANS : There 's examples going back 15 years , 20 years , where he 's called Gwen Ifill , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ cleaning lady . He called another person of color who was an official a quota hire . He 's called Howard Kurtz from the " Washington Post " a " beanie-wearing , hook- nosed Jew . " I mean , he 's used the kind of humor that has been abandoned by other ... @(CROSSTALK) @!COLMES : He also goes after people from the South , on Oklahoma , Okies like he is . He goes after everybody . That 's his act . Everybody knew that was his act . They knew that was his act when they hired him . It was in his contract . If they decided to act on letting him go because of those things , he ought to get a warning , which he did n't get , which is why he got a settlement . And , again , what about the free marketplace ? If you do n't like that kind of humor , if you do n't find it humorous , do n't tune out . Other people have the opportunity to hear what he 's got to say if @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it , and if ratings will substantiate his appearance , what 's wrong with that ? @!DEGGANS : The way the free marketplace works is that you have to take responsibility for the words that you put out on the airwaves . And basically what happened was that Don Imus put out this message . He put out this 25- to 30-year record , and people responded to it . And they responded by protesting . They went to advertisers and they said , " Do you want to be associated with this message ? " And advertisers decided that they did not want to be associated with this message , and eventually CBS Radio and NBC News decided they did not want to be associated with this message , either . @!HANNITY : Did you or the organization ever speak out against Jesse Jackson and Hymietown , when Al Sharpton used the term " Greek Homos , " " white interlopers , " we were building pyramids while the white men were living in caves ? They all have radio shows . Have you spoken out against them . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with the National Association of Black Journalists when Jesse Jackson said what he said . But as a media critic , I 've spoken out against when Jesse Jackson has been mistaken , about diversity levels and cable TV news . I 've spoken out about Al Sharpton when he 's made comments about Jewish people . @!HANNITY : Well , you never said he should be fired . @!DEGGANS : So , you know , I think when we find that news and information programs are being unfair to people of color , then we speak out . @!HANNITY : You know what ? @!DEGGANS : And as a media critic , I write about it . @!HANNITY : I want to correct a few things that you said on this program that are false . He did apologize . He apologized repeatedly . He went and he met with these girls . He apologized to them directly . He apologized on Sharpton 's show . He apologized publicly . He 's been off the air , I guess , what , it 's going on six months or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the air , it will nearly be a full year that he 's off the air here . What I 'm trying to understand , Eric , when I 'm listening to you , he 's raised money for kids that have sickle cell , that have cancer , African- American kids , Hispanic kids , white kids . You 're just going to judge somebody by a five-second comment that he made with no chance of redemption . I 'm trying to understand why . @!DEGGANS : That 's the mistake that you 're making , is that you 're boiling this down to one comment . This is not about one comment . This is about a 25- to 30-year history of cracking these kind of jokes . @!HANNITY : You keep repeating it , but ... @!DEGGANS : He admitted in an interview with " 60 Minutes " that he had a producer on his staff to make n-word jokes . I mean , this is a longstanding history . @!HANNITY : Yeah , but jokes . Jokes . You may not like the humor . @(CROSSTALK) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Should Chris Rock , who says far worse on a regular basis , have you ever come out and demanded that he be taken off the air ? @!DEGGANS : First of all , Chris Rock is not news and information person . @!HANNITY : He 's a comedian. @!DEGGANS : Secondly , there 's a difference between when somebody is inside a group and they make a joke about that group and when somebody is outside of a group . If you look at " The Daily Show " and you watch Jon Stewart ... @(CROSSTALK) @!HANNITY : Oh , so if you 're inside -- OK. @!DEGGANS : ... he makes jokes about being a Jewish man that somebody who 's not Jewish could not make . There 's a difference . @!HANNITY : Eric , the person that Don Imus most fun of was Don Imus . The next person he made the most fun of -- and even kiddingly called his wife a ho -- was his wife , his own family , the people on his own show . So it was n't applying @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that you 're willing to give Chris Rock a pass . Sonia , is that inconsistent with ... @!DEGGANS : If he would have ... @(CROSSTALK) @!DEGGANS : ... I do n't think we would have had a problem with that . @!HANNITY : Sonia ? @!OSSORIO : You know , we 're talking so much about whether I or Eric as an individual or his organization is calling for him being fired . What we have n't talked about is the fact that there were thousands upon thousands upon tens of thousands of people who , six months ago , were outraged and really troubled over the comments that Don Imus made . And what that was , was a reflection ... @!HANNITY : Did you ever ask for Jesse Jackson , did you ever ask for Chris Rock to be ... @(CROSSTALK) @!OSSORIO : Again , I 'm not ... @(CROSSTALK) @!OSSORIO : ... what I wanted , who 's asking to be fired . Let 's look at the bigger issue . @!HANNITY : Is n't Chris Rock far worse than Don Imus ? @!DEGGANS : No. @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!HANNITY : Yes ! Yes , he is ! Yes , in terms of his comments , absolutely . @!OSSORIO : No. @!HANNITY : Absolutely . @!OSSORIO : No. @!DEGGANS : Individuals pay to go to his show . Now , that 's choice . You told me I can turn off the radio . I walk into your ... @(CROSSTALK) @!HANNITY : He 's on television . Wait a minute , it 's on television , uncensored , every word used . Should Chris Rock ... @!OSSORIO : On cable . On cable . @(CROSSTALK) @!HANNITY : Does it matter where he says it , in your mind ? @!OSSORIO : It does . It does . @!DEGGANS : Don Imus show was simulcast on a cable TV news channel . There is a difference . @!OSSORIO : And if he wants to go to a cable network where people subscribe to it , that 's your choice . @!HANNITY : Unbelievable . What a double standard . You know what this is ? @!OSSORIO : No , it 's not . @!HANNITY : This is such a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ standard . @!HANNITY : This is a phony double standard . @!OSSORIO : Not at all . Why are you talking so much ... @!HANNITY : And I find the excuses pathetic . @!OSSORIO : ... about me or what Eric wants ? Let 's talk about what the American people want . @!HANNITY : They 'll tune in and listen to him . You do n't want to give him a choice . @!OSSORIO : His market share has been declining . @!HANNITY : We 've got to break . @!OSSORIO : And we will see . We will see what ABC does and what happens to Don Imus show . @!HANNITY : All right , I gave you the last word . Hillary 's stance on handling on Iran , some may call this a flip-flop . We 're going to play you her in her own words . We 'll let you decide . Back in 60 short seconds , straight ahead . '

@@249241 Announcer : We 're THE SATURDAY EARLY SHOW coming to you from the General Motors Building on Fifth Avenue in New York City . @!MAGGIE-RODRIGUEZ- : As we have been promising all morning , our @!CHEF-ON-A-SHOESTRIis here making a classic Thanksgiving dinner for eight people on a special budget of $80 . Rick Rodgers is the author of more than 30 cookbooks including " Thanksgiving 101 . " Here 's here this morning with foolproof tips for a great holiday feast . Hi , Rick . @!Mr-RICK-RODGERS-@1 : Hi . How are you , Maggie ? @!RODRIGUEZ : I 'm great . I 'm so looking forward to this . Tell me what 's on the menu . @!Mr-RODGERS : Well , let 's take a look here . We have this delicious butternut squash soup with some prosciutto on top . And then we 'll move on to some side dishes . Nice make-ahead side dishes of a mashed potato casserole , some sweet potatoes with a praline topping and , of course , the star of the show , a roast turkey and gravy . And then we have a delicious stuffing with some dried apples and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And homemade cranberry sauce . But we could n't forget the regular cranberry sauce , too . @!RODRIGUEZ : Right . @!Mr-RODGERS : Broccoli with roasted garlic butter and a pumpkin roll . @!RODRIGUEZ : Whoo ! That 's intimidating . That 's a lot to get to . How do we keep it from being intimidating ? What do we think about ? @!Mr-RODGERS : As many things as you can make ahead . @!RODRIGUEZ : OK. @!Mr-RODGERS : You can make your cranberry sauce now , you can make your pie crusts now and roll it out and put it in the freezer . So choose recipes that are going to work for you and that are going to fit in your oven . Do n't get too many things that you have to shove in the oven at the last minute or you 're going to have a traffic jam . @!RODRIGUEZ : All right . So that 's why the first thing that you make is really perfect . You choose to serve soup as the first course . How come ? @!Mr-RODGERS : Some kind @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ kitchen . You 're the cook . You need as much time as you can get . So take the turkey out of the oven , let it sit for half an hour before you carve it . @!RODRIGUEZ : OK. @!Mr-RODGERS : That way the juices in the bird are going to relax . You have a nice , juicy bird . Serve some soup or some salad and your side dishes are in the oven . You 've just bought yourself a half an hour . @!RODRIGUEZ : And this is squash soup . @!Mr-RODGERS : Mm-hmm . @!RODRIGUEZ : I know you purposely do n't put cream in it . Why ? @!Mr-RODGERS : Because if you have too much cream in it , it 's going to fill you up . Make a nice , light first course . @!RODRIGUEZ : All right . Now we have to taste it . @!Mr-RODGERS : OK. @!RODRIGUEZ : A little prosciutto on top . @!Mr-RODGERS : You know , you can leave the prosciutto out . There 's some sage in there , too . @!RODRIGUEZ : Nice @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ because of the ... @!Mr-RODGERS : The consistency , yeah . @!RODRIGUEZ : All right . @!Mr-RODGERS : The star . @!RODRIGUEZ : The star of the show . @!Mr-RODGERS : Star of the show . @!RODRIGUEZ : What kind of turkey do we get ? @!Mr-RODGERS : Well , I 'm a fresh turkey fan . You know , if you 're going to buy a frozen bird , you want to buy it this weekend , let it defrost in the refrigerator . It takes a full 25 -- 24 hours for every five pounds of bird . @!RODRIGUEZ : OK. @!Mr-RODGERS : So you want to defrost it in the refrigerator . For my money , I 'd rather get a fresh bird on Tuesday or Wednesday , takes up less room in the refrigerator . @(Graphic-on-screen) Early Facts This year , Americans will eat 48 million turkeys -- 345,000 tons of meat @!RODRIGUEZ : OK . And what have you put on it ? Is that butter ? @!Mr-RODGERS : Just butter and some salt and some pepper . Paprika 's only going to burn . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : Why the butter ? What does that do ? @!Mr-RODGERS : It 's going to melt into your pan and give you extra fat for your drippings. @!RODRIGUEZ : Mm. @!Mr-RODGERS : For your gravy . @!RODRIGUEZ : Yum , yum , yum , yum . @!Mr-RODGERS : Now , number one tip I want to share with you . @!RODRIGUEZ : Yes . @!Mr-RODGERS : This is just string so if I want to tie the wings down later and also string over here if I want to tie the drumsticks down . @!RODRIGUEZ : OK. @!Mr-RODGERS : OK . Now , the biggest problem with the turkey is that you 've got a lot going on here . Normally when we bake something we 're only doing one piece of the animal . Got a whole turkey here . The dark meat cooks differently than the white meat . @!RODRIGUEZ : Mm-hmm . @!Mr-RODGERS : To keep the white meat nice and moist , put some foil right over the breast and then take your ... @!RODRIGUEZ : Because it takes longer to cook . @!Mr-RODGERS : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ area . @!RODRIGUEZ : Oh . @!Mr-RODGERS : The heat 's going to bounce off of there . OK ? Then during your last hour of your estimated roasting time , you 're just going to take this off and you are done . @(Graphic-on-screen) Early Facts Americans will eat 5 million gallons of jelled cranberry sauce @!RODRIGUEZ : That 's amazing . So foil just over the breast . Take it out half an hour before cooking . @!Mr-RODGERS : Maybe an hour . @!RODRIGUEZ : OK . And what do you stuff the turkey ? Do you stuff the turkey ? @!Mr-RODGERS : I love bread stuffing except when you put bread stuffing in there , you are going to be adding weight to the turkey . So if you 're in a hurry , then you can just put some nice vegetables and some herbs in there . So I have handfuls of fresh herbs . Do n't those smell great ? @!RODRIGUEZ : Smell amazing . Oh , my gosh ! @!Mr-RODGERS : Because this will season the juices for the bird . And then here @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : Perfect . Beautiful . How long do we cook it ? @!Mr-RODGERS : About 15 minutes for a stuffed bird per pound , 12 minutes for an unstuffed bird , 325 degrees . @!RODRIGUEZ : And the pan matters ? @!Mr-RODGERS : Absolutely . You want a nice , good , heavy pan because it 's going to soak up the heat in the oven and help brown your drippings for your gravy . Do n't forget a rack because otherwise the bird will sit in the juices . @!RODRIGUEZ : Oh . @!Mr-RODGERS : Try not to use a disposable foil pan . @!RODRIGUEZ : OK. @!Mr-RODGERS : Invest in a good roasting pan . You 'll love it . @!RODRIGUEZ : All right . What do you do with this ? The innards ? @!Mr-RODGERS : Good homemade turkey stock is the secret of a good Thanksgiving , too . Because now when I make my gravy , it 's going to taste like turkey , not like canned broth . @!RODRIGUEZ : Exactly . @!Mr-RODGERS : Be sure that you saute the neck and the gizzard @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? The heart . @!RODRIGUEZ : Sauteed gizzard is not my favorite . @!Mr-RODGERS : The floppy purple thing is the liver . It 's not good in your stock , but it is good in your stuffing and things like that . @!RODRIGUEZ : OK . You make a stock and use it in the gravy ? @!Mr-RODGERS : Yeah . @!RODRIGUEZ : Beautiful . Let 's get to our sweet potatoes . @!Mr-RODGERS : Sweet potatoes . @!RODRIGUEZ : Are these boiled ? @!Mr-RODGERS : They are lightly boiled for about -- oh , about five minutes just until they 're half-way done . @!RODRIGUEZ : OK. @!Mr-RODGERS : If I were home , I would be washing my hands in soap and water . But I 'm not . @!RODRIGUEZ : Yeah , yeah . @!Mr-RODGERS : But I 'm not , so I need to make some streusel here . This is just flour and butter and brown sugar . @!RODRIGUEZ : Hm. @!Mr-RODGERS : You mix this together and then we 're going to put some pecans in here . @!RODRIGUEZ : I know that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ What about them makes them not so cloyingly sweet ? @!Mr-RODGERS : Well , the fact that I 'm not putting marshmallows on top . @!RODRIGUEZ : OK. @!Mr-RODGERS : OK ? @!RODRIGUEZ : And we 're still not going to be cheated of that yummy marshmallowy taste because you 're using this . @!Mr-RODGERS : This is absolutely one of my most popular dishes . @!RODRIGUEZ : OK. @!Mr-RODGERS : I teach Thanksgiving classes all year-round . @!RODRIGUEZ : What is this , cream ? @!Mr-RODGERS : This is cream . @!RODRIGUEZ : There you go . @!Mr-RODGERS : I have taken all of the calories out of this dish , especially for us . You bake this for about a half an hour . @!RODRIGUEZ : We 'll go with that . @!Mr-RODGERS : Then when it gets going , then you put your streusel on top . @(Graphic-on-screen) Early Facts Grocery stores sell 70 million pies each Thanksgiving @!RODRIGUEZ : Flour , brown sugar , pecans . Beautiful . All right . Let 's talk about cranberries. @!Mr-RODGERS : Cranberry chutney , another one of my most @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ serve the canned stuffed , go fo ... @!RODRIGUEZ : You have to . @!Mr-RODGERS : You know , Thanksgiving is about nostalgia . @!RODRIGUEZ : You have to , absolutely . @!Mr-RODGERS : But this one has crystalized ginger , some jalapeno , some lemon , garlic and some spices in there . @!RODRIGUEZ : Wow ! @!Mr-RODGERS : A little bit of mustard . It is fantastic . @!RODRIGUEZ : Huh . And that 's what it looks like at the end ? Let 's go through this beautiful spread that you have here . @!Mr-RODGERS : OK. @!RODRIGUEZ : Some of the other things . The mashed potatoes . @!Mr-RODGERS : Mashed potatoes . Make ahead . They have sour cream and cream cheese in it . @!RODRIGUEZ : OK . That 's how my mom makes them . @!Mr-RODGERS : And just go ahead and use -- let 's go to the stuffing . Just go ahead and use stuffing mix for your stuffing . @!RODRIGUEZ : OK. @!Mr-RODGERS : Make it easy on yourself . @!RODRIGUEZ : Beautiful . @!Mr-RODGERS : Make sure that all @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ raw vegetables or raw meat in there . You just want to touch base with ... @!RODRIGUEZ : Hey , guys . @!Mr-RODGERS : ... got to have to have fresh , green vegetables . @!CHRIS-WRAGGE-co-h : We 've been dining over here . Nice to see you . This is fantastic . @!RODRIGUEZ : Fresh veggies . And what 's for dessert ? That 's interesting looking ? @!Mr-RODGERS : You can always buy a pumpkin pie . Do n't stress out about baking a pumpkin pie if you 're not a good baker . This is a delicious , easy cake that 's rolled up with some cream cheese and , you know , my mom makes chocolate cream pies for Thanksgiving . @!RODRIGUEZ : There are no rules . @!Mr-RODGERS : There are no rules . @!RODRIGUEZ : We make rice and beans . We 're Cuban . Whatever you want . @!Mr-RODGERS : Exactly . So again , do n't stress out . Pick recipes that are good for you . @!RODRIGUEZ : All right . Let 's see how did you on our budget . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ see , for the first course , Rick bought butternut squash , an onion , a carrot , celery , garlic , chicken stock and prosciutto . For the turkey and gravy , a turkey , of course , an onion , another carrot , poultry seasoning , turkey wings and parsley . Side dishes , Italian sausage , an onion , a bag of stuffing , dried apples , baking potatoes , cream cheese , sour cream , yams , pecans , heavy cream , broccoli , garlic , lemon , crystalized ginger , jalapeno pepper , dry mustard -- that was a long trip to the grocery store . @!WRAGGE : Boy ! @!LONNIE-QUINN-repor : Yeah . @!RODRIGUEZ : He was there for hours ! @(Graphic-on-screen) @!CHEF-ON-A-SHOESTRI# 1st Course Butternut Squash 1.38 Onion .34 Carrot .45 Celery 1.50 Garlic .48 Chicken Stock 1.99 Prosciutto 2.79 Turkey & Gravy Turkey 15.48 Onion .34 Carrot .45 Poultry Seasoning .79 Turkey Wings 5.97 Parsley .69 Side Dishes Italian Sausage 2.59 Onion .34 Bagged Stuffing 2.50 Dried Apples 1.89 Baking Potatoes 3.45 Cream Cheese 2.19 Sour Cream 1.39 Yams 2.67 Pecans 2.24 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Ginger 1.72 Jalapeno .10 Dry Mustard 1.99 Cranberries 1.99 Dessert Canned Pumpkin 1.39 Lemon .33 Walnuts 1.99 Cream Cheese 2.19 Butter 3.69 Powdered Sugar .99 Heavy Cream .99 Rum 1.50 $75.07 @!QUINN : How much did it cost ? @!RODRIGUEZ : For dessert , canned pumpkin , lemon , walnuts , cream cheese , butter , powdered sugar , heavy cream and rum . And the grand total , please ? Let 's get to the punch line . @!QUINN : Da-da-da ! @!WRAGGE : Hit it . @!RODRIGUEZ : Seventy-five ! Five bucks to spare . Nice job , Rick , really . And make ahead is the thing I 'm taking with me , and cover the breast with foil . @!WRAGGE : Tin foil and get yourself a good tray . We heard that earlier . @!RODRIGUEZ : A good tray . @!QUINN : Yeah . @!WRAGGE : No tin foil , no tin foil . A good pan . @!RODRIGUEZ : Thank you . @!WRAGGE : Good job . @!RODRIGUEZ : Have a happy Thanksgiving . @!WRAGGE : Well done . @!RODRIGUEZ : Great , good @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ here , and she 's coming right up in our SECOND CUP CAFE . You 're watching THE SATURDAY EARLY SHOW on CBS . qwq @ ( Sponsorship-of-C '

@@249341 NATALIE @!MORALES , co-host : This morning we wrap up our special series GIVING THANKS TODAY with Ann 's turn to show her gratitude to a great woman . Ann : @!ANN-CURRY-co-host : That 's right . You know , words can change your life , and listening to the words of Dr. Maya Angelou in 2002 changed mine . If you 're not familiar with Dr. Angelou , you need to stop what you 're doing and sit down and listen . A renaissance woman , she is a writer , performer , teacher and an American Poet Laureate ... @!Dr-MAYA-ANGELOU : Lift up your eyes upon this day breaking for you , give birth again to the dream . @!CURRY : ... who tells us not to fear . We 're not different ? @!Dr-ANGELOU : No . No , we 're not . I mean , one person eats potatoes , and another eats rice , and then another eats pasta , and the other dances the hula , and some dance the horah and some dance the hip-hop . But the truth is every human being in the world , if the person wants children @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!CURRY : Everybody needs love . @!Dr-ANGELOU : ... in the world who -- wants to be loved and wants to have the unmitigated goal to accept love in return . Everybody . @!CURRY : So if we 're all the same , why is that we waste so much time feeling separated and lonely and shy and insecure around each other ? @!Dr-ANGELOU : Because we 're so new . We do n't really use much of this machine . We do n't think . People that say , Oh , well I do n't like Chinese people , my daddy never did . Wait a minute , beg your pardon ? Oh , no , white people , you ca n't trust them because my grandmother said so . Wait a minute . Can you dare to think for yourself ? Suppose you really could lay down the burden of ignorance before you left your bedroom . Suppose you actually put it down like a bucket and said , I will not take you a step further . ' @!CURRY : It 's hard to do , though @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ bucket . @!Dr-ANGELOU : I know . But , you know , you have to learn -- I do n't think anybody 's born with courage . I think we develop it . So one of the ways I encourage my students , and anybody else who will listen , to develop courage is first , stop allowing racial pejoratives in your house . Just stop it . Words are things , and I 'm afraid of vulgarity , and it 's vulgar . So I do n't know what it 's leaving on the walls and in the air for the children to breathe . @!CURRY : What 's the lesson , above all others , that you wish to teach ? @!Dr-ANGELOU : Probably the most important lesson is to know that you have been loved . You may think that , I could live and die and the world would never know I was even here . The truth is , to exist at all , you have been loved . Whether the ancestors came from eastern Europe trying to escape the pogroms and little and large @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ lying spoon-fashioned in the filthy hatches of slave ships , in each other 's excrement and urine , they have paid for each one of us . If you can -- if you can just ingest that little piece of truth . Not facts . Facts can obscure the truth . But the truth , if you can ingest that , suddenly some part of you is liberated . I have been loved . If you can -- that is one of the great lessons to me. @!MORALES : What a powerful message . And , Ann , Maya Angelou is standing by in North Carolina this morning to talk with us. @!CURRY : Maya , you have no idea how those words liberated me , and not only changed me , but freed me for the life I 've had since . And I 've always wanted to tell you , on behalf of all the people who , like me , were changed , thank you so much for that honesty and truth . @!Dr-ANGELOU : Thank you . Thank you so much . Thank you for telling @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . So I do n't -- I do n't have to call -- try calling up my cousins and friends and saying , You know what happened ? I just got thanked . ' @!CURRY : I know . But it ... @!Dr-ANGELOU : Thank you . @!CURRY : You know , you 're welcome . And -- but mostly , I think the message to you is we thank you , because , you know , you 've written 12 books , including " I Know why the Caged Bird Sings . " @!Dr-ANGELOU : Mm-hmm . @!CURRY : You 've been a teacher , you 've been such a force . You -- you 've won a Grammy . You are , you know , the first woman to be a director . I mean , you have set a bar . And now , you are facing an enormous birthday come April . And ... @!Dr-ANGELOU : Yes . @!CURRY : ... it is -- you 're -- I hope you 're OK with my saying that you 're going to be 80 years old . @!HODA-KOTB-co-host @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ all you 've done ... @!Dr-ANGELOU : Eighty years old . That 's right . And .. @!MORALES : Eighty years young . @!Dr-ANGELOU : Wait now , wait . Miss Curry , and still kicking it . Still kicking it now . @!CURRY : Oh , I know . @!Dr-ANGELOU : You see , I got up this morning to be here with you all . @!CURRY : And you look ... @!Dr-ANGELOU : But really , I 'm ... @!CURRY : ... beautiful . @!Dr-ANGELOU : Go ahead , baby . @!CURRY : You 're beautiful . @!Dr-ANGELOU : Thank you . @!CURRY : And in so many ways . @!Dr-ANGELOU : Thank you . @!CURRY : What do you wish to be your -- the mark you have left on us ? I can tell you the mark you 've left on me . But what is the mark you want to leave on the earth ? @!Dr-ANGELOU : I would encourage us to take time with each other . Courage , it 's the most important of all the virtues , because without it you ca @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ kind and true and fair and generous and loving erratically , but to be that thing . And so , it takes courage to stop a person and say , Excuse me , what is your name ? No , your last name . I do n't just want to call you Tony , Jeffy , Staci with an " I. " I mean , no , what is your name ? ' @!CURRY : Hm. @!Dr-ANGELOU : And then to have the courage to remember it , and a few hours later , the next day , call the person by his or her name . The person thinks , He remembered me . She remembered my name . Maybe that 's just some glib , you know , gimmick , but I was remembered . @!CURRY : Hm . Well , you ... @!MORALES : So true . @!CURRY : ... my darling , if you do n't mind my saying in calling you darling ... @!Dr-ANGELOU : I thank you . @!CURRY : ... will be remembered throughout time . @!Dr-ANGELOU : I thank you . @!CURRY @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 'm so , so grateful to ever have met you , and I 'm -- and I 'm grateful that we can share you with the world . Dr. Maya Angelou , I hope this is not the last time I speak to you . I will come down there , if you will let me , to come see you . @!Dr-ANGELOU : Please . @!CURRY : So be well , be happy . @!Dr-ANGELOU : Come , I will cook for you . @!CURRY : Maya , thank you so much . We 'll talk again . @!Dr-ANGELOU : Thank you . Thank you very much for having me. @!CURRY : Hm. @!MORALES : Oh , we love her . @!CURRY : Mm-hmm . @!MORALES : And we 'll be back . But first , this is TODAY on NBC . '

@@253841 CONTENT : NATALEE HOLLOWAY , SATISH KALPOE , DEEPAK KALPOE , JORAN VAN DER SLOOT , DAVE HOLLOWAY , BETH TWITTY , HANS MOS @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1ABC-# @(Off-camera) All right . Thank you , Marysol . Now , we wan na get to the latest on the Natalee Holloway case , the American teen who disappeared on vacation in Aruba in 2005 . The three main suspects were rearrested Wednesday night . @GRAPHICS @GRAPHICS @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1ABC-# @(Off-camera) And today , two of the suspects will be in court . And we 'll learn what prosecutors say is the new incriminating evidence against them . Gigi Stone is in Aruba with the very latest . Good morning , Gigi . @!GIGI-STONE-@1ABC-N# @(Off-camera) Good morning , Chris . A hearing at this Aruba courthouse today may reveal the answers everyone has been waiting for . What is this new evidence that led authorities to re-arrest the three main suspects in the Natalee Holloway disappearance after all this time ? @!GIGI-STONE-@1ABC-N# @(Voiceover) Two brothers are set to appear before an Aruban judge today , Satish and Deepak Kalpoe . They 'll be the first to hear the , quote , ' new incriminating evidence , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Joran van der Sloot , also arrested Wednesday , will be flown to this island in a matter of days . @!LEO-VAN-DER-EADEN-# Well , I think it 's , it 's , you know , almost a disaster - for a young kid , which has overcome so much , trying to get a new grip on his life , and then ( inaudible ) by lightning , getting back again . @!GIGI-STONE-@1ABC-N# @(Voiceover) Van der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers were the last three people to see Natalee Holloway before her disappearance . @!DAVE-HOLLOWAY-@1NA# Yeah , it just gives us hope that they 're still involved and maybe we 'll finally get some answers . @!GIGI-STONE-@1ABC-N# @(Voiceover) Following their arrests , Holloway 's father , Dave , committed to launching a new search for his daughter 's body in the waters off Aruba , using divers and sonar equipment to map the ocean floor beyond the depths previously searched . @!BETH-TWITTY-@1NATA# It always goes back to the three primary suspects that Natalee was last seen with . So it - roads always lead back to them . @!GIGI-STONE-@1ABC-N# @(Voiceover) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was worried about the investigation . @!BETH-TWITTY-@1NATA# I think that it 's certainly not in the forefront anymore . @!GIGI-STONE-@1ABC-N# @(Voiceover) In fact , ABC News has learned police questioned the Van der Sloot family as recently as last week and authorities in Aruba searched their home this past April . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1ABC-# @(Off-camera) Did you kill Natalee Holloway ? @!JORAN-VAN-DER-SLOO# No. @!GIGI-STONE-@1ABC-N# @(Voiceover) Van der Sloot told Chris Cuomo , he had nothing to do with Natalee Holloway 's disappearance . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1ABC-# @(Off-camera) Did you help someone else who harmed Natalee Holloway ? @!JORAN-VAN-DER-SLOO# No. @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1ABC-# @(Off-camera) Did you see Natalee Holloway in distress ? @!JORAN-VAN-DER-SLOO# No. @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1ABC-# @(Off-camera) Are you sure about all those answers ? @!JORAN-VAN-DER-SLOO# Yes . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1ABC-# @(Off-camera) Do you know how much those answers mean to her family , to a lot of other people ? @!JORAN-VAN-DER-SLOO# A lot . @!GIGI-STONE-@1ABC-N# @(Off-camera) The evidence presented at this hearing today will have to be compelling because time is running short for prosecutors . They have until the end of this year to make their case against Van der Sloot and the Kalpoes . If they ca @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ case . Chris ? @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1ABC-# @(Off-camera) All right . Gigi , thank you for that . The man making the case against these three suspects is Aruba 's Chief Public Prosecutor Hans Mos . Here 's what he has to say about the situation . @GRAPHICS @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1ABC-# @(Voiceover) Good morning to you , Mr. Mos . Thank you for joining us. @!HANS-MOS-@1CHIEF-P# Good morning . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1ABC-# @(Voiceover) So let 's get right to it . How confident are you in the grounds for these most recent arrests ? @!ON-THE-PHONE-# @!HANS-MOS-@1CHIEF-P# Well , we are pretty confident about the arrests . And - the reasons why we arrested these three guys , we have new evidence , which we think is , is important in this case , and , and we see it as a necessary step up to the end of the year , where we have to take a final decision in this case . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1ABC-# @(Voiceover) What can you tell us about the new incriminating evidence ? @!HANS-MOS-@1CHIEF-P# Well , to be frank , nothing . In - the interest of the - of the investigation , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ new evidence , because these guys have to be questioned . They are in all restrictions right now . They are not allowed to communicate with anyone else but their lawyers . Their lawyers are not allowed to communicate about the content of the new evidence . So I will not do that in the interest of the - of the investigation . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1ABC-# @(Off-camera) When does Van der Sloot appear ? When does he come down to Aruba ? @!HANS-MOS-@1CHIEF-P# We expect him sometime today . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1ABC-# @(Off-camera) And does the new evidence pertain to all three suspects equally or is it weighted towards Van der Sloot more , the Kalpoe brothers more ? @!HANS-MOS-@1CHIEF-P# It - concerns from the three of them because in - how we see the case is that - they operated together in this . And the - the evidence and the information we have is that - this has been a case where they have - worked together , and , and we are trying to find out what their roles have been in this . And we have reasons to believe that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ way or another involved . And how we come to that conclusion , I can not disclose that at this time , but it pertains to all three of them . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1ABC-# @(Voiceover) Let me end with this , Mr. Mos . Obviously , your job is to only bring cases that you believe strongly in . But at this point , do you believe you have the evidence you would need to convict these suspects of the crimes at hand ? @!HANS-MOS-@1CHIEF-P# Well , I 'm convinced that if we have this proved by the time they were released somewhere in 2005 , they would not have been released from jail . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1ABC-# @(Voiceover) All right , Mr. Mos , I appreciate it . I understand why you ca n't be specific . But we 'll find out when they go before the magistrate . Thank you for joining us this morning . @!HANS-MOS-@1CHIEF-P# You 're welcome , sir . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1ABC-# @(Off-camera) And it 's interesting for those who believe this is about the case coming to a deadline of December 31st . Never heard the prosecutors say , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't have been released in 2005 . Elizabeth ? '

@@253941 FARAI @!CHIDEYA , host : This is NEWS & NOTES . I 'm Farai Chideya . What 's the future of the black family economy ? A recent Pew Center study said black family finances have improved over the last three decades , but they still have a lot less income and wealth than white families . Some black households are stacking major chips . They 're building a strong financial portfolio that will help them thrive in a shaky economy . Figuring out how to keep the lights on , the babysitter paid and gas in the car is causing families no shortage of financial and emotional stress . To help us talk through these issues , we 've got Boyce Watkins . He 's an economist at Syracuse University and he 's also a father dealing with child support . We also have Andre and Shiffonda Hayward . Five years into their marriage , they have two kids , two jobs , and the bills keep coming . Thank you guys for being with us . Professor BOYCE WATKINS ( Finance , Syracuse University ) : Thanks , Farai. @!Mr-ANDRE-HAYWARD : Thanks for having me. @!Ms-SHIFFONDA-HAYWA : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , without going too far into your incomes , would you say that together , you make enough money , more than enough money , not enough money , to make ends meet ? Shiffonda ? @!Ms-HAYWARD : It 's kind of hard because we make enough money , but , like they say , the more money you make , the more money you spend . So we make enough money , but still , what is enough money ? There 's never enough money . @!Mr-HAYWARD : It depends on what you - enough for what ? We make enough to pay the bills , but we do n't have , you know , it - like I said , it depends on - enough for what ? @!CHIDEYA : Now , Andre , I understand that you 've got two girls , 5 and 6 years old , and you are spending a lot of money on gasoline . Gas is going up . Tell us what you do and how much you 're spending on gas . @!Mr-HAYWARD : Okay . I 'm in construction jobs @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ miles from where we live . So , I 'm filling up two days - every two days , and that , monthly , that gets pretty expensive . That 's almost like a car note , and that 's just on gas . @!CHIDEYA : So hundreds of dollars each month ... @!Mr-HAYWARD : A month . @!CHIDEYA : ... on gas . @!Mr-HAYWARD : Correct . @!CHIDEYA : And Shiffonda , what about you ? What 's the job situation on your end ? @!Ms-HAYWARD : I work probably maybe 20 miles from our house and I work in a city of Beverly Hills . And coming from L.A. to Beverly Hills , it 's really not that far , but with the traffic and everything , dropping the kids off at school . And the type of car I have , I have a SUV , and the way gas is it 's crazy . I 'm , like , maybe I can fill up once a week , but that one time a week is worth $70 almost . @!CHIDEYA : Where does the emotion come @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ young kids , you 're not different from so many millions of families , and that has got to stress you out . I guess , Shiffonda first and then Andre , how does it affects your ability to just feel relaxed on the day-to-day . @!Mr-HAYWARD : What 's that ? @!Ms-HAYWARD : It has been a lot ... @!CHIDEYA : What 's that ? You say , relax , what 's that ? @!Mr-HAYWARD : Yeah , yeah , what 's that ? @(Soundbite-of-laugh) @!Ms-HAYWARD : Exactly . We have two kids , and taking care of a household is really hard . It 's really not relaxing because sometimes you wonder - you never know what 's going to happen the next day , and it 's really hard . It 's - there 's no relaxation whatsoever because the kids are always going to need something or something always go wrong in the house or with cars and you always - we have to keep our cars - we have to maintain them really good because like my husband he works so far out and with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the kids in my car and I have , you know , get back to work and taking them to school . So , no , there 's no relaxation whatsoever . It 's - it can cause emotional problems a lot . @!Mr-HAYWARD : Let me give you a quick rundown on an average day for me. @!CHIDEYA : Mm-hmm . @!Mr-HAYWARD : I start my day between 4:00 and 4:30 every day because I got to get myself time to get to work , so that 's an hour . Work - own them up . And once I get off work , I immediately go pick the kids up from school , or soon as I get home , got to help them with their homework , get them situated . Now , we end today early evening . Sometimes , I got to get dinner cooked because like , she said , she 's in a lot of traffic and she 's - she gets off work right in rush hour with everybody else . So sometimes I got to get dinner started or whatever , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ started , get them ready for the next day . So now we 're into the early night . Its 7 , 8 o'clock , and like I said , I start my day so early in the morning . I need to be in the bed by 9 , 10 o'clock . So it 's like I 'm going 24 hours - it 's like nonstop , and it 's an everyday thing . @!CHIDEYA : Well , let me bring Boyce in here now . @!Mr-WATKINS : Yeah . @!CHIDEYA : You are an economist at Syracuse . Give us a sense of the big picture , because I understand that you say that while there 's some progress in incomes , you call it awkward progress . What do you mean and how does that relate to the stories that you 've been hearing from Andre and Shiffonda ? @!Mr-WATKINS : Well , I think the story is quite typical . I mean , not only have I studied this , but I have lived this . I remember my mother 's car get repossessed when I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ thought somebody stole it . And I was shocked when she grabbed the phone and hung it up . You know , I can say that in the big picture , basically , African-Americans - what 's really going on is that our wealth levels are less than one-fourth on average compared to whites ; homeownership - less than half of us own our own homes . As far as the 1.2 million black-owned businesses in America , which is a very small number , 1.1 million of those businesses have no employees . So the fact is that , overall , in the big picture , the legacy , the 400-year legacy of economic exclusion of the black community , we build the country but we were not compensated for that . The inability of our parents and grandparents to pass that wealth down to us does sort of lead us to be born into a struggle that we have to fight through . Now , that does n't mean that we ca n't possess good values and ca n't make good decisions , which these people obviously are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they have . But the fact is that they 're not alone in this struggle . @!CHIDEYA : Give us a little bit more background on you because you have a child , you 've obviously got a good job , but how does - give us a sense of how - what you 're struggling with , I guess , you know , even if it may not be tight ? @!Mr-WATKINS : Well , in so many ways , I was blessed enough to have , really , to some extent been a walking statistic . Almost everything that happens to a black male , I experienced it just enough to barely escape those problems . You know , my best friend was shot in the head , I had a child when I was 18 years old , we grew up in poverty , my mother was 16 years old when she got pregnant with me , we lived in the projects together - the list kind of goes on and on . I really ended up here by accident , which makes me so committed to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that I can admit - I 'm very open about my experience . I probably pay more enough child support to fund the Pentagon for a year . And I know that what happens is that , you know , with me being economically successful that child support is not just child support . It becomes mommy-and- daddy support , uncle support , cousin support . You know , my daughter 's siblings are being supported by their money because their father is incarcerated , which is where he 's been for the past 12 or 13 years . And I 'm not saying this to talk about him per se because that 's not - that is another bigger picture in itself . In the last numbers of African-American males that are being incarcerated , many times , some guys do commit crimes and do things that are illegal , but the punishment does n't fit the crime . Almost every statistic shows that . So all these issues with black man being pulled away , the lack of wealth being passed from one generation to the next , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in the structure and in the awkward progress of the black family , because the thing is that we ca n't just paint a doom-and-gloom scenario . Let 's be clear , there are more African-Americans - they have the advanced degrees now than they ever were before . In 2004 , we had 624,000 . Now , we have 1.1 million . More African-Americans are own - owning their own homes and our wealth and income is increasing . But the fact is that it took 400 years to build this problem . We ca n't fix it in 10 or 20. @!CHIDEYA : Well , Boyce , I just want to reintroduce for folks who were just tuning in . This is NEWS & NOTES . I 'm Farai Chideya . We were just hearing from Boyce Watkins . He 's an economist at Syracuse University , also a father dealing with child support . And we also have on the line Andre and Shiffonda Hayward , five years into their marriage . They have two kids , and two jobs , and plenty of bills , but @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ keeps you going when you might find yourself a little stretched ? @!Ms-HAYWARD : Our kids . @!Mr-HAYWARD : Yeah . @!Ms-HAYWARD : I mean , wanting them - I mean , I want my kids to never have to want for anything . You know , I mean , I 'm just not going to give them anything just because they asked for it . They 're going to have to deserve it , but it 's just I want them to have a better life than we did . @!Mr-HAYWARD : I agree . I just - they did n't ask - they would n't , you know , they did n't ask to be here . We decided to have on them . We brought them into this situation , and like she said , I was just living it to Boyce , right ? @!Mr-WATKINS : Yeah . @!Mr-HAYWARD : I agree with everything he said his life . If - it 's so hard to get ahead today . You need - it 's almost like you need somebody to - like a lot of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ house or their grandparent 's house . They ca n't go out and buy a house . And it 's like , I think all the time , I need to get a house today so , if I 'm not - if something happens for me in the future , my kids have somewhere to stay or my grandkids . And it 's like - it 's just hard out here , like you say it is , to fix the problem in 10 or 20 years . And I like to think I 'm making all the right decisions , but it just seem like I ca n't get over that ... @!CHIDEYA : Now , Andre and Shiffonda , you 've been together - from what I understand - for 10 years . You 're still in - both still in your 20s and how do you - what 's your dream , Shiffonda , for how things might play out over the next 30 , 40 years ? Do you see yourself being able to retire at an age where you can still enjoy life ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ more comfortable ? @!Ms-HAYWARD : Yes , I really do . It 's funny because I was talking to Andre not too long ago about it because he kind of brought up the subject of having another baby . And I explained to him , I 'm like , are you sure about this ? I 'm like , we 're finally at this , like , peak where we 're getting to enjoy our life , you know . It 's like we really do n't have to worry about - you know , we really do n't have to , like , start living from paycheck to paycheck anymore . We 're like comfortable with our living status and our , you know , we 're not living above our means . And I just , like , really wanted to talk to him to make sure like , you know , are you sure about this because we 're comfortable where we are now . You know , we 're finally able to relax and really do n't have to worry about , you know , what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ my kids to be able - I want to be able to , like , start saving money for my kids . So when it 's time for them to go to college , they do n't have to keep taking out these big loans and have to worry about those back , you know . That they - grade wise , yes , it 'll be great if they can get a scholarship , but if not , I want to be able to help them go to college and not have to worry about paying loans back . @!CHIDEYA : Andre , do you have a master plan for how you 're going to achieve this ? Or do you just try to make good decisions on the week to week ? @!Mr-HAYWARD : In all honesty , I just try to make a good decision week to week . And I was just listening to find out what she just said . What she said is true , but I was sitting here listening and I 'm thinking , we - what she mean by comfortable is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I 'm paying check for being broke , you know what I 'm saying ? If something really happens , we do n't really have that much money saved up . But we do - we have lot money than we had a few years ago . You know what mean ? @!CHIDEYA : Yeah , well , Boyce , is that common ? Is it common for people to be what some folks call a paycheck away from disaster ? @!Mr-WATKINS : Yeah , that 's not just the black problem . That 's really an American problem . But as we - most of us know , whatever happens to the rest of America comes down about 10 times harder on the black community . One of the things I can say to this couple to really help them work through this situation . Is number one , I 'm very proud of both of you . You know , when I listen to the brother talk , what I really respect most about this man is that he is trying , he 's committed and he 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that his most valuable assets in the world are not financial . It 's the fact that he has a family that loves him and supports him and he has to remember that the richest people in the world sometimes do n't have any money at all . And sometimes the poorest people in the world can have billions . The other thing to remember is that anybody can say - when I did research this summer with the Centre for European Economic Research , one of my German colleagues came to me and said , what is wrong with Americans is the way they manage their money . He said Germans make less than Americans do , we pay more taxes than Americans do , but we save five times more money than Americans do . So people who tell me they ca n't save , they 're probably wrong . The third thing I will say is that my grandmother who never went to college , never made more than $20,000 a year , but was always financially independent and having been married since she was 20 years @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on my Ph.D . - she said , if you are a saver , you will always have money , if you are a spender , you will always be broke . Because when spenders get more money , they spend more . When savers get more money , they save more . So most of money management are getting ahead financially is psychological . All the technical magic and mumbo jumbo is really just sort of icing on the cake . @!CHIDEYA : Well , what do you say , I mean , Andre and Shiffonda are not spending more than their means , but what advice - and I know that you 're an economist , not a personal finance person - but what advice would you have for just putting a little bit away for the future ? @!Mr-HAYWARD : Yeah . @!Mr-WATKINS : Well , number one , I would recommend definitely keeping a budget . Because it 's hard to know where you 're going if you do n't know where you are and where you 've been . And a lot of people do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ can go a long way in terms of helping you manage your money . The second thing I would remind anybody is to think ownership . You know , I really believe this is part of a legacy about slave mentality . I talked to even a lot of doctors and lawyers who go to school so they can get a good job working for somebody else . And I say that , you know , I believe in not just getting a good job , I believe in creating a job . They - you know , they say if you get - buy man a fish , you 're feeding him for a day . If you teach him how to fish , you feed for a lifetime . Well , the person who 's really getting over is the person who owns the land that the pond is on , who 's - he rented it out to people teaching each other how to fish . So own something whether it 's your home , your business or whatever the case may be . That is how @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ mentality that we need to have as African-Americans. @!CHIDEYA : Andre and Shiffonda , when you hear this , does this sound like something that is in your reach or something that 's just a dream ? @!Mr-HAYWARD : Well , it seems feasible . It seems like that could be reached because , like - what 's the word I want to use ? I agree with him . I agree with him 100 percent . Like Fonda had said a moment ago , we just , in recent months , just kind of starting making that transition where we could start saving a few extra dollars . Cut , you know , cut back on some of the - not really blowing money or really just managing our money better . I 'll say that in . I want to make that step like , you know , owning our home . I 'll use that for example . That 's my first step , buying the house that I 'm in now and taking it from there . I 'm really just - after years of work @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . I mean , 13 , 14 , and this seem like it 's just finally starting to payoff and I 'm ( unintelligible ) . I 'm talking 15 years of hard work and it 's just now starting to payoff. @!CHIDEYA : Well you know what , we 're going to have to end this here , but we would like to talk to all of you again . You have some valuable insights . Andre , Shiffonda , Boyce thank you so much . @!Mr-WATKINS : Thanks for having me. @!Mr-HAYWARD : Thank you . @!Ms-HAYWARD : Thank you . @!CHIDEYA : We 've been talking with Andre and Shiffonda Hayward . They are a working-class Los Angeles couple who are making it work and working on making it better . Boyce Watkins is a finance professor at Syracuse University . He runs the Web site , Yourblackworld.com and he 's author of the book , " What is George Bush Were a Black Man ? " '

@@254241 Announcer : This is an NBC News special report . Here is Matt Lauer . @!MATT-LAUER-co-hos : Good morning , everyone . I 'm Matt Lauer . We have breaking news out of Pakistan this morning . An opposition party official says that former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto has died . She was apparently killed in a suicide bomb blast that killed at least 20 other people . NBC 's Jim Maceda is in London following the developments . Jim , good morning to you , and what 's the latest ? @!JIM-MACEDA-reporti : Hi there , Matt . Well , the latest is that hospital sources now are confirming that Benazir Bhutto has died from apparently a very severe neck injury . This took place this morning as she was leaving a rally that she had given in downtown Rawalpindi , the garrison town near Islamabad . Thousands of people had turned up at the Liaquat Bagh park there to see her and hear her . We are really in the first week of a major campaigning towards parliamentary elections , which are to take place on January 8th . Her vehicle was leaving that park area when @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ she was safe , but that soon changed to a report coming from her husband that she was in critical condition . And now the report that , in fact , she has died from those wounds . Matt : @!LAUER : All right , Jim , thank you very much . I 'm joined in New York here by Ann Curry . And it was just on October 22nd , Ann , that you interviewed the former prime minister in Pakistan , and she had just survived a similar attack upon her return to Pakistan on October 18th. @!ANN-CURRY-co-host : That 's right . A massive suicide bombing attacked her entourage as it was landing -- as it had just arrived at the airport . And I interviewed her a few days after that , and she -- I asked her , Why do you continue to risk your life ? Why , when you had a comfortable life in London ? You 've got your children , your husband , you 're safe . Why do you want to come back to Pakistan and expose yourself to this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I love Pakistan , and I am the greatest hope for this country to return to democracy . She is , of course , a controversial figure . Her government , as a former prime minister , was accused of corruption . But she said that without her there was no chance for Pakistan to return to democracy . @!LAUER : Very controversial also in her return . There was a huge opposition to the current administration in Pakistan . How large a following did she have ? @!CURRY : An enormous following by people in the lower classes , people who had nothing . She really was , from our experience , being there on the ground and from her own -- the way she described herself , the people 's choice . A kind of a ground swell of people really supported her . She , however , was vilified by extremists . She actually had accused the Musharraf -- President Musharraf 's government of having members of his own government who were working in conjunction with some of the extremists in the northern region , in the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , I think , even more of a target by making those kinds of statements . @!LAUER : When you talked to her after that suicide attack on -- in October , upon her return to Pakistan , I mean , she was on top of a bus or a truck at that time , and the suicide bomber got fairly close . What steps were taken , what did she talk about in terms of increasing -- and the people around her -- increasing security ? I know you had to go through extraordinary security just to be able to talk to Benazir Bhutto . So what did they do to try to prevent a future attack ? @!CURRY : Well , you 're absolutely right . Getting to her was going after one after another . I counted at least four bag searches and at least two scanners , a couple of body searches just to get to do an interview with her . She put the responsibility for her security on the backs of the President Musharraf government . So now the question has to be asked @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was secure ? Were enough steps taken ? There 's going to have to now be , no question about it , an investigation into whether the president 's government did enough to secure her . He , of course , for his part , says there 's only so much you can do to secure a woman this controversial . @!LAUER : Right . And speaking of President Musharraf , obviously the United States has been supporting him , hoping that he can be an ally in the war in terror . Jim Maceda , I want to bring you back in from London right now . So what do we expect the administration 's response to be to this attack and the death of Benazir Bhutto ? @!MACEDA : It 's going to be very negative , Matt . No question about it . This is a person who not only represented a moderate voice in a very volatile political atmosphere here as we go towards these elections , but she was supported by the United States for the reasons you mentioned . She was somebody that the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do business with , who could become prime minister after these January 8th elections and serve as a counterweight , a counterbalance to Musharraf , who clearly does not brook any dissent within his own regime , even if he has taken off his military uniform . So this is going to come as a devastating blow , no doubt , to US goals and attempts to bring stability to the country of Pakistan . @!LAUER : Well , Jim , let 's stay on the subject of these upcoming elections then . Does the death of Benazir Bhutto shatter her base , or does it galvanize her base ? @!MACEDA : I think it could in many ways shatter the base . There 's nobody -- I mean , she is a larger-than-life figure . She was in exile for so many years . She had just come back , and she would raise hundreds of thousands of people in the streets . She 's the only political figure in the country who could do that , and Musharraf knew that . What is likely to happen -- and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ result of these events -- that Musharraf now has every reason to come out politically or publicly today and say that emergency rule is back in force . And then anything can happen after that . Back to you . @!LAUER : All right , let 's just recap for people who may just be joining us , Jim and Ann . We got news early this morning that Benazir Bhutto , the former prime minister of Pakistan , has been killed in a suicide bomb attack . It happened in the town of Rawalpindi , and apparently , at first there were conflicting reports as to whether she had survived the attack . And then her husband made a statement saying she had been critically injured . And now we have confirmation from a hospital in that area that Benazir Bhutto has , in fact , died . We 've been talking to Ann Curry , as well , who interviewed Benazir Bhutto back on October 22nd , and talked specifically about the dangers she faced in returning to her country . And I remember , Ann , from @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you 're in danger , but you 're also putting everyone around you in harm 's way . @!CURRY : And she felt that responsibility very strongly . I will -- also I 'd like to add , Matt , that she -- her relationship with President Musharraf was strained before she arrived . They had developed a kind of connection . They sort of had a kind of working relationship that would allow her to land back in on the soil of Pakistan and to launch her bid to run for election . But during the martial law that he ordered in , I believe , in late October , early November , during that time the relationship became very , very strained . So that 's an interesting point to note . I think that Jim Maceda is right to bring up the possibility that would be reinstated . @!LAUER : And as you 're saying this , we 're looking at the very first pictures that we 're getting out of Rawalpindi after that suicide attack early this morning United States time , resulting in the death @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ us now live on the phone . She , of course , is NBC 's chief foreign affairs correspondent . Andrea , Pakistan is so vital to US interests in that area and in the war on terrorism . We need that country to be stable and strong in that war on terrorism . What does this do to that dynamic ? @!ANDREA-MITCHELL-re : Well , this , of course , is a tremendous blow to the American strategy . The American strategy was initially to support Bhutto . She came here to Washington . I met with her . She was meeting with people on the Hill and in the administration . And then saw her repeatedly as she was working very hard to get Washington 's support . She went back with Washington 's support . Their hope was to broaden Musharraf 's regime to include Bhutto and other elements of the opposition . And , of course , that began to fall apart , as Ann knows well from having been there . They then had to back off and defer to Musharraf , who , of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ al-Qaeda , against the Taliban . But throughout this period , they were well aware that Musharraf was , according to many critics , playing both sides . And this has become a major issue , Matt , in the presidential campaign , whether the US put too much stake in Musharraf and then tried to back off with this support , this latest support for Bhutto and other elements of the opposition , but too little , too late . It was long after Musharraf had declared martial law , had packed the supreme court , firing the initial supreme court and made it impossible to really mount an opposition against him . And as people will inevitably talk about this , Musharraf , as Bhutto herself said , was ultimately responsible for her security or lack of security . @!LAUER : And so , Andrea , so how does the United States reaction to and position on Musharraf change from this day forward ? @!MITCHELL : They have no alternative but to stick with Musharraf because , at this point , the situation is way too volatile for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Musharraf is the only one who , at least initially , controls the military . They have made inroads with other military leaders who were expected to succeed him if anything happened to him . So there are deep relationships among other members of the military . But the real unknown here is the power of the ISI , the Pakistan Intelligence and Security Operation , which has long had close ties with the Taliban and has been playing both sides of the street . @!LAUER : And , Andrea , is it -- I mean , do we know of -- is there anyone who could step in and fill the vacuum now left behind by Benazir Bhutto ? @!MITCHELL : Well , of course , there is Nawaz Sharif , the other former prime minister and returned exile -- has been in exile in Saudi Arabia for almost a decade . So there are other elements of the opposition . This will clearly make it very , very difficult for Musharraf to survive , but my bet would be that the US would hope that the next general @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Musharraf when he took off the uniform , would be the person who can restore order or at least hold this country together . @!LAUER : All right , Andrea Mitchell joining us on the phone this morning . Andrea , thank you very much . @!MITCHELL : You bet . @!LAUER : And , Ann , thank you as well . We 're going to have much more on this breaking news , the death of former Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto , killed now in a suicide bombing in that country today . We 'll be back , but first these messages . And we are back on TODAY on this Thursday morning , 27th day of December 2007 . Coming back with this news that Benazir Bhutto has just been killed in Pakistan . Obviously , breaking news and something that clearly destabilizes that country , and the United States has to hope not that entire region because Pakistan is a key ally and key player in the war on terrorism . And , Ann , it 's -- I just have to say that , you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and just talked to her about this very threat , this very danger that she faced on a daily basis . @!CURRY : I arrived specifically because , when she arrived , when she came back to Pakistan to run for office again , she was attacked at that time by a suicide bombing , and there were many people who were hurt . @!LAUER : All right , we 're going to have much more on this . But first , we 're back on TODAY in just a moment . This is TODAY on NBC . '

@@4022141 CHRIS @!WALLACE , HOST : I 'm Chris Wallace , and this is " Fox News Sunday " . The Democrats have a nominee -- almost . With a handful of primaries remaining , how will Barack Obama close the deal ? We 'll ask his chief strategist , David Axelrod . Then , Hillary Clinton vows to fight on . What 's her plan to win the nomination ? We 'll find out from Howard Wolfson , top strategist to the Clinton campaign . Also , once they settle their differences , what are the chances Obama and Clinton will end up as the Democratic ticket ? We 'll ask our Sunday regulars -- Brit Hume , Mara Liasson , Bill Kristol and Juan Williams . And our Power Player of the Week , who 's still asking for Ferris Bueller , all right now on " Fox News Sunday " . Hello again , and happy Mother 's Day from Fox News in Washington . Well , with just six primaries left , Barack Obama is now in a commanding position for the Democratic nomination . After his big win in North Carolina and slim loss in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ over Clinton in delegates and now needs 161 more to secure the nomination . And in the popular vote , Obama leads by more than 700,000 , excluding the disputed primaries in Florida and Michigan . Joining us now from Chicago , Obama ' s chief strategist , David Axelrod . And , Mr. Axelrod , welcome for the first time to " Fox News Sunday " . @!AXELROD : Thanks , Chris . Good to be here . @!WALLACE : Since the primaries Tuesday in North Carolina and Indiana , Obama has picked up 21 superdelegates , and Clinton has picked up a net gain of two , putting you and your campaign in the lead in superdelegates for the first time . Do you see those superdelegates starting to break sharply for Obama ? @!AXELROD : Well , I think you 're going to continue to see that . I think that 's a natural thing . We 're coming to the end of the process . I think people saw the results on Tuesday as very meaningful . And I think there 's an eagerness on the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to get on with the general election campaign . Senator McCain 's been out there campaigning as the nominee for some time , and I think people are eager to engage . So I think you 're going to see people making decisions at a rapid pace from this point on . @!WALLACE : When you say at a rapid pace , should we expect a flood or a trickle over the next 10 days ? @!AXELROD : Well , I think a flood would be overstating it , because I think people -- I think people , out of respect for the process and the candidates -- some may withhold their judgment . But I think we 're going to -- we 've been announcing several , you know , each day for the last few days . I think we 're going to continue to -- we 're going to continue to unfurl these endorsements on a regular basis here . @!WALLACE : Now , you just said that you think that there 's an eagerness in the party to get on with the general election campaign and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ going to say that Hillary Clinton has a right to run as long as she wants , so please do n't give me that answer . But do you think that Clinton continuing to take shots at Obama ' s policies and his political strength -- do you think that hurts the Democratic Party ? @!AXELROD : Well , first of all , let me say I do n't -- I think that Senator Clinton cares about the Democratic Party . I think she cares about this country . I think she understands how much we need change in this country . And I do n't think she wants to impair our chances to achieve that , so , you know , I assume that she will do what she thinks is appropriate within those parameters . On the whole , you know , I think this has been a good process for us and for the Democratic Party . You know , we have registered 3.5 million new Democratic voters . The Obama campaign has organizations all over the country that are going to be ready to go . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . So in many ways , this has been a strengthening process . And I 've said before that what we do n't want is at the end of the process to get into a situation where we impair our chances in the fall . And I trust the folks on the other side , Howard and folks on the other side , agree with that . @!WALLACE : Senator Clinton got a lot of attention this week for some comments she made to USA Today . Let 's listen to a tape of them . @(BEGIN-AUDIO-CLIP) @!CLINTON : Senator Obama ' s support among working -- hard-working Americans , white Americans , is weakening again . And how the -- you know , whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me. @(END-AUDIO-CLIP) @!WALLACE : Mr. Axelrod , what do you think of a Democratic presidential candidate describing the race in such stark racial terms ? @!AXELROD : Well , I have to assume that Senator Clinton did n't say that the way she wanted to say it . I do n't imagine that she chose @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ question again . And the truth is that that is n't even the fact . In Indiana , we split voters who make $50,000 a year or less evenly . We did better among non- college-educated voters there . And the same is true in North Carolina than in some of the immediately -- immediate preceding states . And we 've done well across the country in various states with these voters . @!WALLACE : Well , let me just ask you , though , Mr. Axelrod ... @!AXELROD : So the thesis itself is -- was wrong . The words were n't well chosen , but the thesis was wrong . @!WALLACE : Why are the words not well chosen ? Forgetting whether they 're accurate or not , I mean , what do you find offensive about talking about white voters not going for Obama ? @!AXELROD : Well , I 'm sure that Senator Clinton did n't mean to conflate hard-working Americans and white Americans in the same sentence . I know she does n't believe that , and I do n't think she meant to , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!WALLACE : Well , let me ask you about that . @!AXELROD : I think there are a lot of hard-working Americans of all backgrounds and races and ethnicities , and of course she believes that , too . @!WALLACE : Let me ask you about that , because right after the Pennsylvania primary , you gave an interview to National Public Radio in which you said the white working class has gone to the Republican nominee for many elections . Do you , in effect , think that -- first of all , do you believe that ? You did say it right after Pennsylvania . And secondly , are you , in effect , conceding the white working class to John McCain in the general election ? @!AXELROD : Not at all . And I think that this is a year in which we have a great chance to do what we have n't done for many cycles and rally working class Americans again of all backgrounds , because we 're living through a dismal time in our economy , and much of it has to do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do n't think when you look at -- when you look at the polling , when you talk to people anecdotally , I do n't think people are going to turn -- they 're not interested in a repeat of the last four years in terms of policies . They understand that they 've been disadvantaged by these policies . And I 'm very confident that we 're going to run a strong campaign . The thing that I think Senator Obama will also do is compete strongly for independent voters . And you saw it yesterday in the L.A. Times poll in which he was leading that he was even with Senator McCain among independent voters . I think that 's going to be an important metric in terms of how this election turns out . @!WALLACE : Let 's talk about the end game here , how you ease Hillary Clinton gently out of the race . On Friday , Senator Obama was asked about helping Clinton pay off the millions of dollars in debt her campaign has racked up , and he did n't rule it out @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I 'd want to have a broad range of discussion with Senator Clinton about how I could make her feel good about the process and have her on the team moving forward . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!WALLACE : Question : Will the Obama campaign help Clinton pay off the millions of dollars in debt she 's racked up ? @!AXELROD : You know , Chris , she has n't asked , and we have n't offered . And I think that that discussion is way premature . And the truth is I think that Senator Clinton will have the capacity to retire her debt . I do n't believe that Senator Clinton is looking for a deal . I do n't think that 's what this is about . I think she 's competed very hard over the course of several years , and I think she 's playing it out as she sees -- as she sees fit . I do n't think she 's waiting for a cue or a signal from us or an offer of financial assistance . And I think that would demean her to suggest otherwise @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ side of it from the Obama campaign . I was talking to some Obama contributors , small ones in recent days , who said they 'd be outraged to see any of their money going to help pay off the Clinton campaign . One , they oppose the campaign . Two , it would go to Washington insiders like Mark Penn , who are the kind of people that they supported Obama to get out of Washington . @!AXELROD : Well , of course , no one 's talking -- I do n't think even under any scenario no one said that we were going to transfer money from the Obama campaign to the Clinton campaign . We obviously need the resources we have . We have a great task ahead of us . And so that -- I think that that was -- there was a misunderstanding out there about that . But , look . The fact is we 've had a very competitive race for a long period of time . Feelings are raw . I think those feelings will heal over time , because ultimately Democrats @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we really need change in Washington . And I think that , you know , it 's hard to measure unity in the middle of a primary campaign . But I think we will have unity in the fall . And I think that will include not just Democrats , but independents and some disaffected Republicans who understand that we 're way off track in this country and we need to change direction . @!WALLACE : But let 's talk about healing and unity . There 's obviously been a lot of talk in the last few days about a possible dream ticket of Obama and Clinton , but Robert Novak says in his weekend column that Michelle Obama wants no part of the Clintons . True or false ? @!AXELROD : That 's false . There 's been no discussion about vice presidential nominees and this whole scenario . Again , you know , we have not had any overtures . We have not made my overtures . I know that this is the parlor game of choice in Washington . But we 're just going out there and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ every vote . That 's what Senator Clinton is doing . And you know , we 'll focus on the vice presidential choice at the appropriate time . @!WALLACE : Let 's turn to a possible general election campaign against John McCain . Obama and John McCain got into a flap recently after McCain suggested that your man is favored by Hamas because a Hamas adviser spoke favorably about him . And here is how Obama responded . Take a look . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!OBAMA- : So for him to toss out comments like that I think is an example of him losing his bearings as he pursues this nomination . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!WALLACE : The McCain camp says that phrase , losing his bearings , was a pretty obvious way of bringing up McCain 's age . @!AXELROD : Boy , I think they 're awfully sensitive . I did n't read it that way at all . But when we say losing his bearings , we 're talking about the fact that he promised an elevated campaign , a campaign on issues and so on , and he 's been @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hominem attacks lately . And I understand this , because he 's running , you know , with a platform and a program that is demonstrably failing the country , and the country knows that . But one would hope that Senator McCain would live up to the commitment he made to run a more elevated campaign . We were encouraged when he said that he wanted to have -- when his people suggested that perhaps there would be a series of town hall meetings , joint town hall meetings , around the country to talk about the issues in detail . Let 's do that . Let 's do that kind of thing . I think the country 's hungry for a serious campaign because these are serious times . But let 's not engage in the nonsense that he knows is n't the fact , that he knows demeans not just Senator Obama but himself in the process . That 's what Senator Obama was referring to . @!WALLACE : Mr. Axelrod , let me pick up on the last point you made , because it was something @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ has suggested the idea that Obama and McCain would travel around the country , starting this summer -- joint town hall appearances , joint debates , perhaps without even a moderator , something like a Lincoln-Douglas style . How seriously are you guys thinking about that ? @!AXELROD : Very seriously . We take that as a serious idea . And again , we believe that is the most significant election we 've faced in a long time . We 're at war . Our economy is in turmoil . And we 've got so many challenges that the people of this country deserve a serious discourse , and it should n't be limited necessarily to three kind of very regimented debates in the fall . We ought to begin sooner , and we ought to have a free-flowing conversation about where we want to take this country . So you know , we 're interested in that proposal and eager to sit down and talk about it . @!WALLACE : So I just want to pursue this . You 're talking about starting this summer before the conventions , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't worked out the details . This was a concept that Senator McCain surfaced , and what I 'm saying is we 're interested . And I do n't think I can get into any details here , Chris , because we 're just at the beginning of that conversation . But Senator Obama is very committed to having an open and direct dialogue about the future of this country with Senator McCain of the sort that America deserves right now and needs right now . And so , you know , we 're eager to sit down and talk about it . @!WALLACE : And listen , we 'd like to invite you right now to do a debate on Fox , sir . @!AXELROD : I was wondering how long the invitation would take in coming here , so ... @!WALLACE : Well , consider yourself invited . @!AXELROD : ... you disappointed me . I thought it would be quicker than that . I thought it would be quicker than that . @!WALLACE : Sorry to disappoint you . Mr. Axelrod , thank you . Thanks for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Good to be with you , Chris . @!WALLACE : Up next , the Clinton campaign . We 'll talk with key adviser Howard Wolfson about Clinton 's controversial efforts to keep fighting for the nomination . Stay tuned . '

@@4022241 @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Off-camera) Good evening , I 'm Cynthia McFadden . There are an estimated five million adopted people in America . Tonight , the remarkable journey of one of them . Most people can take for granted that they 're someone from somewhere . The basic parameters of who they are and where they came from are clear . What medical issues run in the family . Where the curly hair comes from or the blue eyes . But for tens of thousands of adopted people , even the most basic facts remain shrouded in secrecy . Many choose not to search . That was how Cynthia Guditus , adopted in New York City , 43 years ago had always felt . She adored her family and felt no pull backwards , until she did . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Voiceover) Everything changed for Cynthia Guditus when her 12-year-old son was diagnosed with cancer and his doctors told her it would be a good idea to search out her family 's biological history . @!PAM-SLATON-@1RESEA# Since we met last I 've been doing a little preliminary work . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Voiceover) Her search led her to hire Pam Slaton. @!PAM-SLATON-@1RESEA# It 's something @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Voiceover) Another adoptee who has matched more than 2,500 people with their biological mothers . @!PAM-SLATON-@1RESEA# Some things you may be allowed to ask . Some things maybe can be considered non-identifying information . I want to know what region of the US she came from . Her occupation at the time , level of education . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Voiceover) Today , Cynthia is headed to the Foundling Home , the place that handled her adoption 43 years ago . @!PAM-SLATON-@1RESEA# I 'm rooting for you , kiddo . Good luck . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Voiceover) Pam will not be allowed inside . @!PAM-SLATON-@1RESEA# So are you excited ? @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# I 'm excited . Very nervous . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Voiceover) So it will up to Cynthia to gather whatever information she can . Wendy Freund is the director of New York Foundling . She knows the name of Cynthia 's biological mother , but is not legally permitted to reveal it . @!WENDY-FREUND-@1NEW# Your birth mother was referred to us by catholic charities . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Voiceover) She can tell Cynthia non-identifying information . Her mother was catholic and met her father on a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you were saying before you wanted to be a teacher , which is really ... @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# Yeah . That 's very funny . @!WENDY-FREUND-@1NEW# Is n't that something ? @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# Yeah , it 's amazing , yeah . Was there any information on the birth father ? @!WENDY-FREUND-@1NEW# The birth father we know was a swimming and diving instructor . @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# My mom always used to say you should be in the Olympics because I love to swim . @!WENDY-FREUND-@1NEW# Really ? @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# Yeah . I really do . I 'm a very good - a very strong swimmer . @!WENDY-FREUND-@1NEW# So you 're a perfect genetic match of these two people . @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# That 's very funny . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Voiceover) And then a tiny bit of emotional information about the mother she has never known . @!WENDY-FREUND-@1NEW# She gave signs of caring . She brought you from the hospital here . She did n't want to sign surrender until she knew you had a permanent home . She wanted to know that you were in a good home . She was private which is going to be one of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ how private did she stay about this ? @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# Well , and that 's been my biggest concern from the beginning , is I do n't want to intrude on her life if she 's a private person . You know , I do n't want to walk in 43 years later and be like hi , you know . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Voiceover) Before Cynthia goes , one more thing that is not in the file . @!WENDY-FREUND-@1NEW# Now , we might as well put on the table my big disagreement with Pam . We 're both right and we 're both wrong . I think that the gentlest way to approach someone is with a letter . Just a plain envelope , with a simple note , not too much , not too overwhelming . That she can think about and respond to . Pam personally for her , she likes the phone call . @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# Right . @!WENDY-FREUND-@1NEW# And my problem with a phone call is if she 's not alone in the room , it 's such ... @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# I agree . @!WENDY-FREUND-@1NEW# ... a shock . @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ explode her world into a tailspin. @!WENDY-FREUND-@1NEW# I am here to see you through whatever this takes us. @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# Okay . Okay . Thank you . I appreciate it . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Voiceover) Pam is waiting for her , eager to hear what she 's found out . @!PAM-SLATON-@1RESEA# Do you know what she had told your father about you ? @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# I do n't know . It does n't indicate that . @!PAM-SLATON-@1RESEA# And how did they meet ? @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# Very casual it sounds like . @!PAM-SLATON-@1RESEA# All right . You ready for this ? @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# I hope so . I think I am. @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Voiceover) When we come back , what Pam finds out . @!COMMERCIAL-BREAK-# @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Off-camera) A recent survey suggests over 60% of Americans have some personal connection to the adoption issue . We continue now with one woman 's search for her birth mother . Cynthia Guditus has assembled all the fact she can on her own and hired a professional to help her find the biological mother she 's never known . But she treads lightly , knowing many lives will be affected by what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ takes a few minutes for Pam Slaton to solve the 43-year-old mystery . Using Cynthia 's birth certificate and the information Cynthia got from the Foundling Home , the answer . @!PAM-SLATON-@1RESEA# At this point I believe we 're looking at the information on the biological mother . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Voiceover) Pam also believes she 's figured out where Cynthia 's birth mother lives and has found her phone number . Later that night , I 'm home sick with laryngitis , so they come over to my house to talk about what Pam has found . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Off-camera) Tell me what happened today . I 'm so interested to know . What was it like , Cynthia ? @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# It was very emotional . It was very emotional . And I really was n't expecting it . You know , it 's been a long journey . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Off-camera) Did you sleep last night ? @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# No , not very well . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Off-camera) So can you tell her something right now ? @!PAM-SLATON-@1RESEA# Well , I did find her birth mother for her and she 's alive , which @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Cynthia. @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# Yeah , my heart 's in my throat . Because it 's Pandora ' s Box . @!PAM-SLATON-@1RESEA# Well , from what I saw , she looks to be pretty stable . I mean she does n't look as though she 's moved a hundred times . @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# Oh , my god , I 'm just speechless . I 'm speechless . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Voiceover) Cynthia has a name , but now what ? Write a letter , make a call ? Do nothing ? @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Off-camera) Do you want to call her ? @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# Oh , my . I do . I just do n't want to - I mean what about if she has n't said anything . That 's my biggest thing . What about if she got married and never mentioned it and her children are there . You know , that 's my biggest concern . @!PAM-SLATON-@1RESEA# Well , when you do a phone call , if that 's the way you decide to go , you know , I was born on February 1 , I 'm looking for my biological mother . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Voiceover) Cynthia is full of questions , of worry . @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# I 'll tell you , I 'm a little concerned . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Off-camera) I mean there are a lot of reasons . And I guess all of us have our own reasons for looking and not looking but I wonder - I know you 're close to your parents . @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# Yeah . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Off-camera) Did you feel that to look would be disloyal to them in some way ? @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# I did . I felt very much like I would be cheating on them almost . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Off-camera) Like having an affair ? @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# I did . I felt very like - and I really - we 're very close and we sat down and we just talked honestly . You know , I 've always known I was adopted as well as my younger brother . So our parents were always very honest about it . And I felt bad . The circumstances that brought us into was my son was sick and , you know , that it was kind of the catalyst , but @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ were like , I ca n't imagine if I had a connection with somebody in the world and not knowing . You know , it 's only normal to be curious . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Voiceover) She does n't want anyone to be hurt in her quest . Not her adoptive parents who she adores , not the woman who placed her for adoption . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Off-camera) I hear you being much more concerned about your biological mother 's feelings than your own . And I want to say to you , but hold it a second , what about how you feel ? Then I think , well but gosh , yes , I mean this is a woman who put you in a safe place , made sure you 'd be okay . @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# And loved me enough to make sure I went to a great family . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Off-camera) It is an emotional conversation for both Cynthia and Pam and for me I too am adopted . @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# And that 's kind of the thing about being adopted is right , you can almost make your own history . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ complaining about that once . Well I do n't know . And a way to feel that you 're a part of everyone and have a connection to everybody is a good thing . On the other hand , not to know , I mean you 're not really . You are someone . From somewhere . @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# Right . @!PAM-SLATON-@1RESEA# It 's kind of a strange thing . I think finding your birth family is like a weird way of validating your existence . Because you kind of feel like , you know , my joke to my clients is , you know , you were n't dropped off from the mother ship . You came from somewhere . And it 's just like saying this is real . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Off-camera) How are you going to make the decision about what to do next ? @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# I do n't know . You know ? I really want to call her . I really do . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Off-camera) But first , Pam helped Cynthia practice for the call . @!PAM-SLATON-@1RESEA# I was adopted from the New York Foundling Home . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you help me with this ? And then , you know , if I do n't know what you 're talking about , say okay , can I leave you my number ? Because that 's clearly I ca n't talk . @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# All right . I guess I 'll ... @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Off-camera) Are you sure you 're up to this ? @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# Yes , I 'm up to it . So if I start crying ... @!PAM-SLATON-@1RESEA# You got the spiel down ? @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# I 've got it down . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Voiceover) When we come back , the call . @!COMMERCIAL-BREAK-# @!ANNOUNCER-# ' Nightline " continues from New York City with Cynthia McFadden. @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Off-camera) In just ten hours , Cynthia Guditus , a 43-year-old mother of three has gone from having no idea where she came from , to finding out the identity of her birth mother . She has decided to call her , but first , for the fourth time , she practices for the call she thought she would never make . @!PAM-SLATON-@1RESEA# Do you want me to dial it ? And then see if @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you want me to ... @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# If a woman answers , just give it to me . And I 'll say hi , my name is Cynthia Guditus. @!PAM-SLATON-@1RESEA# I 'm going some - you can say I 'm doing some genealogy research . Can you talk right now ? @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# Okay . @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# Genealogy research , write that down . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Voiceover) I look on in utter disbelief . @!PAM-SLATON-@1RESEA# Hi , hang on one second , please . @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# My name is Cynthia Guditus . I 'm doing some genealogy research . I 'm sorry . My name is Cynthia Guditus . I 'm doing some genealogy research . I was just wondering if it 's a good time to talk or if I could give you my phone number if you 'd like to talk some time . Um , I was born February 1 . I was adopted at the Foundling Home . I do n't want - I just wanted to ask if you could talk . I do n't want - you know , intrude on your life or anything . I could give @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ some time . 631- - 631- - I really just wanted to call to thank you , because I 've had a wonderful life . I appreciate everything you 've done . Because I have the most wonderful family , and my son was diagnosed with cancer a couple of years ago and they suggested that I just try to find somebody with a biological link . So if - he 's fine now . And um , I know you have probably gone on with your life and that 's fine . But I just wanted to ask you because - I really appreciate that . I 'm sorry . I know this is such a shock and I did n't know how to do it . If I should write you a letter . I 'm sorry . Your husband could be there . If you need to - I 'm sorry . I would never tell anybody . I swear . I am a mother of three children . A very stable person . You know ? This - you do n't have to explain it to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ thank god for you , because you had choices . I did n't have to be . And you gave me life and I have had such wonderful parents . And I heard that you wanted to find out like , you know , I heard that you , you know , approved the parents and stuff like that . And I just - or anything like that . I just really - I just love you and it does n't matter if we ever meet . I just - do you ? I pray for you too . And it 's fine . Please do n't feel that - I would never intrude on your life . You know , I would never , you know , do anything like tell your kids or anything like that . But I hope that you have a happy life . Thank you . I 'm sorry . I 'm so sorry . I really did n't mean to upset you . Oh , you 're 70 ? Oh , god bless you that 's great . Are you okay ? Are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ever want to talk or if I can help you in any way , please , you have my number . I will not call you again . I will not contact you . Okay . That 's my cell phone number , so that 's not even my home number . So , you know - yeah . So , you know , you do n't have to talk to anybody , you know , my kids or anything like that . Can I ask you just a couple questions ? Does cancer run at all in your side of the family ? Later . Okay . All right . And breast cancer or anything like that ? Well that 's great . Well , that 's good to hear . That makes me very happy . And I 'm sorry . I really did n't mean to upset you . I 'm sorry . It 's fine . It 's fine . If I can do anything to help you , you just let me know , okay ? Okay . God bless you too . Thank you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . I 'll pray for you too . All right , bye , bye . Oh , my god . @!PAM-SLATON-@1RESEA# You were like the coolest chick. @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# Oh , my golly . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Off-camera) Oh my god . @!PAM-SLATON-@1RESEA# Are you all right ? @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# I 'm fine . I 'm like in shock . @!PAM-SLATON-@1RESEA# You did it . I am proud of you . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Off-camera) You were amazing . Are you okay ? @!PAM-SLATON-@1RESEA# You were . @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# She was very ... @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Off-camera) Was she crying , what was she saying ? @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# She was in shock . She was in shock . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Off-camera) How do you feel right this second ? You were amazing . @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# I feel so good . I feel so light . I feel literally physically lighter . I wish it were true if I got on the scale , but I feel so good right now . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Off-camera) Why , why ? @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# I do n't know . Just hearing her voice and just hearing that she thinks of me. @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Off-camera) In the very beginning , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# No . She just said I 've never told anybody . @!PAM-SLATON-@1RESEA# Wow . So that was the knee jerk reaction . @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# She says I 've never told anybody . I never told my husband . And I never told children . And you know what ? Back in that day , you did n't share this stuff . This was shameful . You know ? I mean it 's so crazy that you know our society , we the women are like that , you know feel that way . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Off-camera) Did she leave the door open at all ? I mean you gave her the phone number . @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# I left the door open , and I told her to call me . It did n't sound like maybe right now this is something she can do . And that 's okay . @!PAM-SLATON-@1RESEA# You may be surprised . You never know . She 's going to check your boundaries and she 's gon na see if you 're going to be respectful of her . She might come forward . If she sees that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ may come forward . You did such a good job . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Off-camera) Oh , my gosh , you were amazing . You were so comforting to her . I mean , you know ? What children want is to be comforted by their mother , and then yet , you were comforting her . It was really beautiful , I have to say . @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# That 's so sweet . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Off-camera) No . It 's true . Did n't you feel that way ? @!CYNTHIA-GUDITUS-@1# I do n't even know what I said . I should have wrote ... @!PAM-SLATON-@1RESEA# You said ... @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Voiceover) You never know when a day will come along that changes your life . Cynthia Guditus returned home to her family , her husband , her three kids , all of whom are now healthy , feeling blessed and at the same time , different . That was eight months ago . Cynthia tells us she has yet to receive a call from her biological mother , and worries that perhaps she has lost her number . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Off-camera) But nonetheless , Cynthia @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for letting us join her on this most intimate of journeys . @!CYNTHIA-MCFADDEN-@# @(Off-camera) When we come back , we ask you your opinion on our nation 's adoption laws . It 's our " Closing Argument . " @GRAPHICS @GRAPHICS @!ANNOUNCER-# ABC News " Nightline " brought to you by ... COMMERCIAL BREAK '

@@4023741 OBAMA ' 08 @!STEVE-KROFT-co-ho : A year ago , Barack Obama was even a longer shot to win his party 's nomination than John McCain , but against improbable odds the first-term senator from Illinois defeated Hillary Clinton with a message of change and is now trying to convince the country that he 's ready to lead , running against the record of one of the most unpopular administrations in American history . This is the biggest financial crisis this country has had , a lot of people say , since the Great Depression . Senator BARACK OBAMA : Right . @!KROFT : What caused it ? @!Sen-OBAMA- : Well ... @!KROFT : Who 's to blame ? @!Sen-OBAMA- : Look . There were a lot of factors involved , but I think there is no doubt that if we had had a regulatory system that had kept pace with the changes in the financial system , that would 've had an enormous impact in containing some of the problems that are out there . I mean , you 've got greedy CEOs and investors who are taking too much risk , but that 's why we set up @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ into the system as a whole , and unfortunately we had a lot of deregulation and instead of modifying rules for this new economy , we just eliminated them . So we 've got to change our regulatory system . But Steve , there 's a bigger problem and that is that the economy has not been working for ordinary Americans . @!KROFT : Senator McCain made some of the same noises this week , blaming Wall Street greed , promising reform and oversight . What 's the difference between the two of you ? @!Sen-OBAMA- : Well , the difference is that I think that I 've got a track record of actually believing in this stuff and you know , Senator McCain , fairly recently said I 'm a deregulator . This is -- one of his top chief economic advisers was Phil Gramm who was one of the architects of deregulation in this sector . And he 's always taken great pride in believing that we have to eliminate regulations . @!KROFT : Really , in some ways , this has been -- this past week has @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you think that Secretary of the Treasury Paulson has done the right thing ? @!Sen-OBAMA- : I think by the time Secretary Paulson and the Federal Reserve Chairman Bernanke were looking at these problems , they had no good options left . @!KROFT : Should the government be bailing out all of these banks and insurance companies ? @!Sen-OBAMA- : Well ... @!KROFT : We 're talking about hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars . @!Sen-OBAMA- : Yeah . I think that our basic principle has to be that you do n't bail out shareholders , you do n't bail out CEOs who are getting golden parachutes and $100 million bonuses , that you are doing everything you can to protect taxpayers , making sure that people are able to stay in their homes and that their mortgages do n't go overboard because of bad decisions that other people make . @!KROFT : Do you think we 're in a recession ? @!Sen-OBAMA- : Oh , I think there 's no doubt that we 're going to see when the numbers come out that we are officially in recession @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 've been feeling like we 've been in a recession for years now . When their wages and incomes do n't go up and the cost of gas and groceries and home heating oil and prescription drugs are all going up , that feels awfully like a recession to them . @!KROFT : Do you think the worst is over ? @!Sen-OBAMA- : It 's hard to say . @(Footage-of-Elko-N) @!KROFT : ( Voiceover ) We spoke with Senator Obama on Wednesday in Elko , Nevada , a heavily Republican mining town of less than 20,000 people in a remote corner of this battleground state . Lined with casinos , Basque restaurants and legal brothels , it 's not the kind of place you would expect to find a presidential candidate with 47 days left till the election . But Obama has been here three times , hoping to scrounge a few thousand votes that could help him carry Nevada and put him in the White House . The election is that close . @!Sen-OBAMA- : ( From speech ) John McCain actually said that if he 's president he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ boys network in Washington . " I 'm not making this up . This is somebody who 's been in Congress for 26 years . The old boys network . In the McCain campaign , that 's called a staff meeting . Come on . @(Footage-of-Obama-c) @!KROFT : ( Voiceover ) The Wall Street debacle had stalled the post-convention momentum of Senator McCain and Governor Sarah Palin and brought Obama ' s strongest issue , the economy , back to center stage . And Obama is trying everything he can to keep it there . This is the most aggressive speech I 've seen you give in a while . @!Sen-OBAMA- : Right , right . @!KROFT : What changed ? @!Sen-OBAMA- : Well , partly it 's just we 're getting closer to the election . Partly , as you will recall , we , for several weeks , were putting up with a lot of silliness from the other side . Britney Spears ads , we were talking about lipstick and pigs . And one of the things that we felt very strongly was that we had to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and ours very clear . Hold on one second . Young lady , hold on . Just hold on one second . Let me finish this interview . I 'll be right there . All right , go . @!KROFT : I mean , they 've gotten some traction . @!Sen-OBAMA- : Right . @!KROFT : Particularly with women . Last time I talked to you , Sarah Palin was ... @!Sen-OBAMA- : Yeah . @!KROFT : ... a name . How did Palin change the race ? @!Sen-OBAMA- : You know , look , she 's a skilled politician . I think she was an unexpected choice , which is always fascinating for the media . She sort of came out of nowhere , and so it gave , I think , the McCain campaign some energy , a boost . Over time , people want to know what are the policies . @!KROFT : Hm. @!Sen-OBAMA- : And the policies of John McCain have n't changed since Sarah Palin was named as the vice presidential candidate . I 've got to go . @(Footage-of-Obama-w) @!KROFT : ( Voiceover @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to try to find the person who was yelling at him . It turned out to be an African-American woman who wanted to tell Obama that she had just lost her husband of 70 years , and that he had tried to live long enough to vote for him . @!Sen-OBAMA- : Oh , let me give you a hug . I 'm sorry about that . God bless you . I appreciate it . @(Footage-of-Obama-c) @!KROFT : ( Voiceover ) The candidate was riding a resurgence in the polls , at least for the time being , although they still show a weakness with white working class voters and significant concerns about his lack of executive experience . @!KROFT : ( Voiceover ) Why do you think you 'd be a good president ? @!Sen-OBAMA- : Well , I think that when you think about the challenges we face , these are challenges that require us to look forward and not backwards . When it comes to the economy I think we have to recognize that we 're now in a global economy . How ... @!KROFT : Yeah @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ why do you think you would be a good president ? @!Sen-OBAMA- : Well , I was going to get to that . @!KROFT : Go ahead . @!Sen-OBAMA- : The -- I think both by training and disposition , I understand where we need to take the country . @!KROFT : But what is there specifically about you ? You mentioned disposition . What skills and traits do you have that would make you a good president ? @!Sen-OBAMA- : You know , I 'm a -- I 'm a practical person . One of the things I 'm good at is getting people in a room with a bunch of different ideas who sometimes violently disagree with each other and finding common ground and a sense of common direction , and that 's the kind of approach that I think prevents you from making some of the enormous mistakes that we 've seen over the last eight years . @!KROFT : Suppose you wake up on , you know , the day after the election . @!Sen-OBAMA- : Right . @!KROFT : The president-elect of the United States @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , how are you going to govern ? @!Sen-OBAMA- : Well , look ... @!KROFT : You 've never run anything and now all of a sudden you 're in charge of running the United States . @!Sen-OBAMA- : Look , if the question is executive experience , then Senator McCain and I are on equal footing . If people want to know what I 'm going to do , I 'm going to call in the Joint Chiefs of Staff and I 'm going to tell them we need to find a way to bring this war in Iraq to a close and we want to do it safely and protect our troops , but we are going to get it done because we ca n't keep spending $10 billion a month in Iraq when the Iraqis themselves are n't taking responsibility , and we have to refocus our attention on Afghanistan . The second thing I 'm going to do is we 're going to pull together a working group , including our Treasury secretary and everybody involved in our economy and we are going to make an @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to do in terms of stabilizing the financial markets and the housing markets ? Third thing we 're going to do is we 're going to finally have an energy proposal that is moved through Congress that includes increasing production , but also make sure that we are making this economy more energy efficient . Fourth thing we 're going to do is get moving on a health care plan that finally provides health -- people health insurance at affordable rates . The people who know me , the people who 've worked with -- worked with me and for me understand that I know how to make things run and get things done . Otherwise , I would n't be here sitting having this interview with you . It 's not just because , you know , I can give a good speech once in a while . @(Footage-of-Obama-w) @!KROFT : ( Voiceover ) Friday in Coral Gables , Obama was surrounded by a financial brain trust that includes three former Treasury secretaries and a former Federal Reserve chairman , who were advising him on the Wall Street crisis @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ billion dollars to create jobs improving the infrastructure , $150 billion to develop alternative energy sources , and a similar amount for health care . The McCain campaign right now is characterizing you as just another big spending liberal . @!Sen-OBAMA- : Right . Right . @!KROFT : And that as a result of this , he wants to raise taxes . @!Sen-OBAMA- : Right . They 're wrong . And I think they 're being deliberately misleading . Under my tax plan , 95 percent of American workers would get a tax cut , 95 percent . If you are making less than $250,000 , you would not see a single dime of tax increase , not on anything . @!KROFT : And at what level would the tax breaks start to kick in ? @!Sen-OBAMA- : Well ... @!KROFT : Salarywise ? @!Sen-OBAMA- : I would say if you 're making $150,000 a year or less , you are definitely getting a tax cut under my plan . Between 150 and 250,000 , you 're probably going to stay roughly the same . It is true , if @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ probably pay a slightly higher rate , but you 'll probably still pay lower taxes than you did back in the ' 90s and you definitely will be paying lower taxes than you did under Ronald Reagan . @!KROFT : Is it a good idea to be raising taxes at a time when the country seems to be broke ? @!Sen-OBAMA- : Well , keep in mind that we are cutting taxes for 95 percent of the people , who are more likely to spend the money , to go and put that money to work in a small business , who are more likely to give a boost to the economy , a stimulus to the economy at a time when it 's needed . @(Footage-of-operati) @!KROFT : ( Voiceover ) The most expensive part of the Obama program is the health insurance plan , which would make coverage for children mandatory and promises affordable government subsidized insurance to all Americans , with premiums based on a percentage of their income . How much is it going to cost , $150 billion it 's going to cost , right @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is , but we pay for every dime that we propose to spend . I believe in pay as you go . That is you want to propose a new program , you better cut some old ones . If you want to expand a program , then you better figure out where the money 's coming from . @!KROFT : So this is paid for with the increased taxes on people who make more than $250,000 a year ? @!Sen-OBAMA- : It 's rolling back the Bush tax cuts , it 's closing corporate tax loopholes , but look , I do n't make a claim that we are going to be able to eliminate our deficit within my first term as president . @!KROFT : Right now it 's what , $400 billion ? @!Sen-OBAMA- : It 's a lot . @!KROFT : Right . Is it going to go up under the Obama administration ? @!Sen-OBAMA- : No . It 's going to go down , but it 's not going to go away because we 've dug ourselves a deep hole . @!KROFT : Iraq . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ February of 2007 ... @!Sen-OBAMA- : Hm. @!KROFT : ... you had proposed at that time a piece of legislation that would 've had all the troops out in 16 months . @!Sen-OBAMA- : Right . @!KROFT : Which means they would 've been out by today , if it would 've been passed . @!Sen-OBAMA- : Right . @!KROFT : We would 've missed the surge , we would 've missed the reduction in violence . @!Sen-OBAMA- : Oh , wait , wait , wait . Steve , I mean , now you 're just engaging in a huge hypothetical . We do n't know what would 've happened if we had initiated the plan that I put forward at the beginning of 2007 . And the fact of the matter is that as successful as our troops have been in lowering the violence in Iraq , and they have performed brilliantly , the truth of the matter is , we still do n't have an oil agreement . We still do n't have provincial elections . The commanders on the ground themselves acknowledge that the political progress that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ welcome the reduction in violence , but the notion that somehow this was the only way for us to solve the problem and that the problem has been solved , I completely disagree with . @!KROFT : The McCain campaign , the last day or two , has been running nothing but ads talking about you and the surge . @!Sen-OBAMA- : Yeah , but that 's all that ... @!KROFT : That you were opposed to the surge . @!Sen-OBAMA- : That 's all they have to talk about . You notice that according to the McCain mythology , I guess the Iraq War started with the surge . They seem to forget that there were five years before that where they got everything wrong , where they anticipated that we would be greeted as liberators , where they said this would be easy . These are John McCain ' s quotes . That this would all pay for itself because Iraqi oil revenues would more than cover it . I mean , the fact of the matter is is that John McCain has been consistently wrong on Iraq @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to a close . Even the Iraqi prime minister and the Iraqi government recognize it 's time to have a time frame . The Bush administration has talked about time horizons , and John McCain , moving forward is the only one who stubbornly clings to reasons to stay in Iraq . @(Footage-of-Afghani) @!KROFT : ( Voiceover ) Obama wants to move an additional 7,000 troops to Afghanistan , where he says the military situation is rapidly deteriorating . You were one of the first people to say that the United States ought to follow the Taliban and al-Qaeda back into the tribal territories to Pakistan . @!Sen-OBAMA- : Here 's what I 've said . We ca n't tolerate al-Qaeda having base camps and safe havens where they are planning attacks against US targets . That 's not acceptable . If we have a high value al-Qaeda target in our sights , then we need to make sure that if the Pakistanis are unwilling or unable to go after them , that we do . That 's common sense . And I think that 's appropriate . @!KROFT : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ States ? @!Sen-OBAMA- : Yes . I think that a nuclear-armed Iran is not just a threat to us , it 's a threat to Israel and it is a game changer in the region . It 's unacceptable and that 's why I 've said that I wo n't take any options off the table , including military , to prevent them from obtaining a nuclear weapon . But I do think that is it important for us to use all the arrows in our quiver , and we have not applied the kind of tough diplomacy over the last eight years that I think could have made a difference . @!KROFT : When we come back , the candidates share defining moments that made them who they are today . @(Announcements) '

@@4025441 @!SENATOR-JOHN-MCCAI# At no time have I ever done anything that would betray the public trust . @!BILL-KELLER-@1 " NEW# According to some of the people who know him best , he can be surprisingly careless about his reputation . @!RUSH-LIMBAUGH-@1 " -# It 's " The New York Times " reporting about a Republican . You know damn well a story like this would n't run about Hillary or Obama. @!HOWARD-DEAN-@1DNC-# Now it looks like John McCain is part of the corruption problem in Washington . He does n't seem to really have an ethical compass . @!SENATOR-JOHN-MCCAI# I do n't have any more comment about this issue . I had a press conference yesterday morning . I answered every question . I 'm moving on . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) John McCain weathering the storm . We 'll talk about that . And all of the week 's politics on our roundtable . I am joined , as always , by George Will , EJ Dionne of " The Washington Post , " also the author of a new book , " Sold Out , Reclaiming Faith in Politics After the Religious Right , " Cokie Roberts , and Ron @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you all . And George , John McCain and their entire team are convinced that they got the better of the mini-scandal at the end of the week and that " The New York Times " was hurt more than John McCain . True ? @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Well there 's some truth in that . There 's a certain kind of conservative who hated Nixon until ' 73 because then " The Washington Post " and other liberals attacked him and they said , well , he 's our guy now . In McCain 's case , he was so lucky that this lobbyist in question was female . Because then the sexual innuendo took over a story that otherwise would have been about John McCain on the corporate jets provided by people with interests before the Commerce Committee , John McCain pressuring the FCC , and that does n't accord with the image of Saint John of Arizona . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) He would point out thought that was all eight years ago . @!EJ-DIONNE-@1 " THE-W# Right , but , you know ... @!COKIE-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) So was the woman @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ queen of spades is to a game of hearts . It overwhelms everything . And I think short term McCain had a good week because all of these conservatives rallied against " The New York Times . " I think long term this story hangs around because the core question - this is what the public editor of the internal critic at " The Times " said this morning . That the sex kind of drove out the legitimate part of the story in the public 's mind , which is , is this Saint John McCain ? Is his campaign a band of brothers or lobbyists ? And the new " Newsweek " has more detail on this , where John McCain seems to have contradicted himself in the course of defending himself . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) But more than ... @!EJ-DIONNE-@1 " THE-W# So I think this lives for a while , longer term . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) More than seems to , Cokie , and I want to bring you in on this . Because Senator McCain 's denials were unequivocal on Thursday , about the relationship , about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the company involved and " Newsweek " ... @!COKIE-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) That 's always a mistake . You know , because first of all it 's entirely possible that legitimately he does n't remember . And - I mean , it was a while ago . And just to , you know , leave yourself a little bit of hedge room makes a certain amount of sense . Because we 've seen it how many times that people get in more trouble for what they say after the fact than the fact itself . And that could happen to him . But I think right now we are certainly dealing with " The New York Times " being in much bigger trouble than John McCain. @!RON-BROWNSTEIN-@1 " # Well , but I think it 's really early to make any verdict , as EJ was suggesting on how this is going to play out . Because it 's not just " The New York Times " that is involved . I think most people agree " The New York Times " did not prove that there was a sexual relationship involved @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ care very much if there is . But as you suggest , George , the Senator made some very unequivocal statements that are already starting to erode . He said his staff put out papers saying that he had not met with the broadcaster in question , Mr Paxson , who then said to " The Washington Post " that he did , in fact , meet with Senator McCain . Senator McCain testified , as it turned out , that he met and spoke ... @!EJ-DIONNE-@1 " THE-W# Under oath . @!RON-BROWNSTEIN-@1 " # ... under oath , that he spoke with him . We now have three different news organization , not only " The New York Times " but " The Washington Post " and " Newsweek " saying they independently talked to former McCain aides who spoke with him about this relationship and about - and at least the appearance of impropriety . And he unequivocally says it did n't happen . You now have a out there in the air that people are going to continue , I think , to explore . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ may be what Senators are supposed to do and all that . And it may not be corrupt . But it is the appearance of corruption . And the appearance of corruption is the rational Mr McCain has used promiscuously in his towering moral vanity to say that everyone else is guilty of this and therefore we must ... @!COKIE-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Well it 's interesting though . I remember ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) His context . @!COKIE-ROBERTS-@1-A# ... interviewing him about being on corporate jets in 2000 . And his answer then was , look , I think it stinks , but that 's the only way I can get from here to there and that 's the system that we have to live by until we can do something else . And that 's what he always does . I mean , he does a good job of saying this is n't the way it should be , and I 'm working really hard to change how it is . But this is the way it is. @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Except now he 's getting caught up in precisely that . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ EJ on a separate but related issue of the public financing of this campaign . He had earlier said he was going to consider taking the public money . He got a loan based on the - not the promise but the expectation that he would have to apply for the public money , EJ , yet he got a letter this week from the head of the Federal Election Commission saying , wait a second . You 've obligated yourself , you ca n't get out of the system . Which would mean he only had about $5 million to spend , if it holds , between now and August . @!EJ-DIONNE-@1 " THE-W# He 's going to have to consult that former corporate - that former constitutional law professor Barack Obama to sort this one out . I mean it 's a mess because well you do n't even have ... @!COKIE-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) First of all , there 's no FEC ... @!EJ-DIONNE-@1 " THE-W# Exactly . That 's what I was going to say . You do n't have enough members because of a fight between Congress @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have enough members of the FEC to enforce this . So does McCain , the leading supporter of campaign finance reform , say , well , they ca n't enforce this , and besides this is n't what the law really meant . You 're at an intricate level of detail in campaign law . I think he 's gon na override the law because he ca n't afford not to . @!COKIE-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) I think on this one , Barack Obama is in much worse shape on this one . And I think that he - that when we start ... @!RON-BROWNSTEIN-@1 " # You 're talking about the general . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Yes , because of the pledge he 's made to take public financing in the general if the Republican did it as well . @!RON-BROWNSTEIN-@1 " # Right . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) But Barack Obama is going to get out of that because he 's going to say what we need is a comprehensive solution which means not just money to get us to the presidential campaigns but the 527s as well and they 'll negotiate that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it 's more interesting than this . John McCain had two choices in Ohio . He could do what all of his Republican rivals did , which is go in and comply with the law which says you can come in and you can get all these signatures from all these counties . It 's a high hurdle . They did it . Or you can come in and wave your certification that you 're going to take public financing and skip all that , which he did . He has gamed the system brilliantly . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Ron , let me bring you in on the Obama question that Cokie raised as well , saying it 's more trouble for Obama . I say potentially you 're right , which is why - I actually believe he should keep the pledge . Public financing gives you $85 million from a very late convention , September , October . It 's basically two months , $85 million for two months . And he can raise and spend $10 million a month until then and then send his supporters to the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ # It may be $10 million a week in fact . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Right . Exactly . @!RON-BROWNSTEIN-@1 " # Look , I mean , we are living through a transformation of the way presidential campaigns are financed . I mean and what Obama is doing this year is taking trends we 've seen over the last few years and accelerating them to a remarkable degree . 650,000 donors by the end of January . If he 's the nominee , it 's entirely conceivable that he will have 2 , 2 1/2 million active donors . I met a woman in California on the Sunday before the primary who said to me that every time my husband and I think about going out to dinner , we send $80 to Barack instead . @!COKIE-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Oh my goodness . @!RON-BROWNSTEIN-@1 " # And she said it - and she said " Barack " with a sense of personal ownership . @!COKIE-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Had she lost weight ? @!RON-BROWNSTEIN-@1 " # And the reality is that this - you know , in the ' 70s and ' 80s Republicans had @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a financial advantage . It lasted a long time - bequeath to the party . Now Democrats have been more aggressive and effective at going on the internet . And Obama - no matter how McCain deals with is , the situation about from now until September , Obama , , if he is the nominee , is going to raise astounding amounts of money . @!COKIE-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Right . @!RON-BROWNSTEIN-@1 " # And you know , but the only thing to keep in mind is in those last two months , even though it 's 85 - free - million dollars , that 's a lot of money to leave on the table , he probably could raise considerably more than that and so , as George has suggested , he finds a way around it . @!COKIE-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) But you reach a point of no ... @!EJ-DIONNE-@1 " THE-W# He does n't have the problem John Kerry had in 2004 . In 2004 , there was an enormous gap between the two party conventions . And so John Kerry had to stretch the public money over a much @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ conventions is very small . So he 's not giving up what John Kerry gave up when he accepted public money . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) I think that 's exactly right . But we are getting a little bit ahead of ourselves . Although , you know , the wave seemed to hit Senator Clinton Thursday night at the debate . Let me show you this moment , final moment . @!SENATOR-HILLARY-CL# I am honored to be here with Barack Obama . I am absolutely honored . And whatever happens , we 're going to be fine . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) And perhaps concerned that her supporters might think she was giving up , she came out with a very different tone yesterday in Ohio . @!SENATOR-HILLARY-CL# So shame on you , Barack Obama , it is time you ran a campaign consistent with your messages in public . That 's what I expect from you . Meet me in Ohio . Let 's have a debate about your tactics and your behavior in this campaign . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) She is going to fight , George Will , she is not going @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ math is perilous for her , the delegate math . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Yes she has to win the last three big states , Ohio , Texas , Pennsylvania , by at least 20% . She shows no sign being able to do that in any of them . The arithmetic , it 's almost Huckabee-ian at this point . She has to say I 'm for miracles . @!COKIE-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) I mean what happened - Wisconsin happened . And she lost by too much in Wisconsin . She lost too many groups that had been with her . The only group she still really has is white women . And I do think that there 's some possibility that you will see a sort of reaction among white women . I had the opportunity ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Like New Hampshire . @!COKIE-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) ... to interview Billie Jean King this week . And she said , you know , I feel like everything I worked for all my life is going out the window . And there is that sense . I mean , here is this woman who 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you 're supposed to do it , and then this cute young man comes in and says a bunch of sweet , you know , nothings , and pushes you out of the way . And a lot of women are looking at that and saying , there goes my life . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) But play that out . Let me bring in both Ron and EJ on this . Let 's say you 're right . Let 's say she pulls out a five-point win in Ohio , a five-point win in Texas . Very possible with those kinds of wins , EJ , that she actually does n't pick up any delegates that day because she loses Vermont . And that 's the nightmare scenario for a lot of Democrats . She wins , she keeps going , but no possibility of getting the nomination . @!EJ-DIONNE-@1 " THE-W# Well the Texas process was organized by the Rube Goldberg ... @!COKIE-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Exactly . @!EJ-DIONNE-@1 " THE-W# There 's such a - you know , caucuses and primaries . All of which benefits him . @!COKIE-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as well . @!COKIE-ROBERTS-@1-A# So all that works in Obama 's favor . Her biggest problem is that he can play to win . If he knocks her off in one of these states , he could actually assemble a majority . She 's playing to tie . And then to pray that all kinds of other factors come in to play later , the Super Delegates , Michigan and Florida , which as Senator Biden said , she ca n't win just by taking those delegates . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) And look at those Super Delegates ... @!EJ-DIONNE-@1 " THE-W# So it 's a disadvantage ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) But look at what 's been happening with the Super Delegates , Ron . The last two weeks , he 's picked up 25 Super Delegates . She 's lost two . @!RON-BROWNSTEIN-@1 " # And not only the last two weeks , really since the voting began in Iowa . In 2007 , most of the major endorsements went to Hillary Clinton . Since the voting began in Iowa - in January , what did we see ? We saw a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Napolitano , Kathleen Sebelius , Ben Nelson , move towards Obama . In February , we have seen liberal leaders of the party , starting with Ted Kennedy , moveon.org , the SCIU , last week , " Chang to Win " , the alternative to the AFL union coalition endorsed Obama and out - on the phone call announcing the endorsement , Anna Berger , the chairperson of it said we are endorsing because we think it is - we are reaching the point where it is the time to begin wrapping up this nomination . And I think that unless Hillary Clinton wins decisively in Ohio and Texas , the movement of the elite level is already toward Obama . You would see that accelerate . And I do think you would see more across , especially after - Cokie 's point is really important . In February , when Obama was winning , he was mostly winning states where his voters outnumbered her voters . Wisconsin , the results in Wisconsin came accompanied by the sound of something cracking . It was the first time that non @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ progress in Virginia , but he carried a majority of them in Wisconsin . It suggested - it had the feel of the party saying , look , this has been a great race but we have made our decision . @!COKIE-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) It did have that feel . There 's still - I mean you look at these numbers and you still see lots of land mines , not necessarily in the nomination but in the general election . I mean , you start looking at young voters . Are they going to show up ? Probably not . They never have before . By the time November comes , they 'll be tired . You know , they 'll have heard it all . @!RON-BROWNSTEIN-@1 " # I do n't know . @!COKIE-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) You look at independents . They 're the least likely people to vote . I mean , you have all these groups that are not necessarily going to show up . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) They 've shown a lot of enthusiasm all year long for the Democrats . @!COKIE-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) I know . But you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) And how do you hold it ? @!COKIE-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Right . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) And this is what the Obama campaign is dealing with right now . And let 's look a little bit at that . They got a little bit of a scare this week when Michelle Obama came out with some - what turned out to be controversial comments . @!MICHELLE-OBAMA-@1W# For the first time in my adult life , I am proud of my country because it feels like hope is finally making a comeback . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) George , she started back-pedaling the next day . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Well , she should . Because what that does to - a lot of people say , uh-oh . There is this latent thing in the Democratic Party that it has a kind of adversarial stance to mainstream American patriotism . It 's just there . And it seemed to leak out there and they have to stop that awfully fast . @!EJ-DIONNE-@1 " THE-W# There was a cartoon of Mrs Clinton lecturing Barack Obama saying , get control over your spouse . So I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Democratic primary very much . But I think it is a problem . I think that there is - you know , Obama speaks like an instinctive patriot . And I think people hear that in his message . And I think anything that goes crosswise to that ends up hurting him in the election . And I do n't think you 're ever going to hear something like that again . Because if there 's one thing both Obama 's have shown is they learn a lot on the run and you look at ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Absolutely , every single month . @!EJ-DIONNE-@1 " THE-W# ... Obama 's - yes , when you look at Obama in the debate , for example , he is so much better now than he was six months ago . And I think they 're not gon na make any mistake like this one again . @!COKIE-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) And also , look , you 're on the road , you 're saying a lot of things . Things come out of your mouth that you just feel like , oh my God @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @(Off-camera) We 've all been there . Let me bring Ron in but on a specific question , building on this . I do n't want to get too far ahead of ourselves . But if he is the nominee - and I think the Obama campaign already realizes they have a couple of vulnerabilities they have to deal with that they saw during the primaries . Number one , that he comes off as a little aloof , not as someone who really cares about people in his bones . And , secondly , that he will be accused of being a reflexive liberal , despite all this talk about being a bipartisan healer . How do they address that ? @!RON-BROWNSTEIN-@1 " # They 're both challenges . First of all , an Obama/McCain race , if it comes to that , I think would further scramble the traditional class alignment of American politics . I mean Barack Obama has shown in this primary an enormous appeal for upscale , well-educated white voters , many of whom have been - are disillusioned with Bush . Look at Bush @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ down as well . He has an opportunity to cut into a lot of that vote . But among kind of a blue collar America , where experience counts more , where national security may count somewhat more in a kind of traditional way that Republicans play it , you can imagine an opportunity for John McCain to win , in particular , a lot of those white waitress moms that Bush won in 2004 around security issues who have not voted for Obama in this campaign . And that is - you know , you can see , for example , an Obama who could be a very strong candidate in Virginia , in Colorado , in affluent states , but have a lot of trouble in some of those interior states that are economically troubled . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) And the Reagan Democrats who had gone to Clinton go back to McCain. @!COKIE-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) I think that 's right . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Probably . I mean it seems to me Obama 's problem is that you can only be a novelty once and for a while . And he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ organ quite enough now . This stuff about - I 'd call it banal eloquence . Where he says , in the face of despair , we can still hope . I have news for him - Americans are n't in despair . Look around you . Who 's despairing ? @!COKIE-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Well the other thing is ... @!EJ-DIONNE-@1 " THE-W# They 're unhappy in a public sense . They may be happy in their private lives , but they 're unhappy about public things . @!COKIE-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) What has not been useful for Hillary Clinton because of running among liberal Democrats is his voting record . And , you know , the truth is , is that if it were a Republican running against him , he can put him , you know , just squarely on the left of the Democratic Party . You know , he 's got a very - very much , you know , ADA approved - Americans for Democratic Action approved voting record . He , unlike Hillary Clinton , oddly enough , given the rhetoric , has not reached across the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ get things done , which she has done . @!RON-BROWNSTEIN-@1 " # And also in the course of the election , I mean he 's had a number of areas where he 's suggested kind of challenging the base on social security , for example , considering benefit reductions ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Affirmative action . @!RON-BROWNSTEIN-@1 " # ... on merit pay for teachers . And he has significantly backed off - and in fact , now , there 's kind of a cognitive dissidence between the way he is concluding this campaign in Ohio , with a very strong populous anti-business kind of message and this broader argument about bringing people together around the table . He says he wo n't talk to any lobbyists . Who 's going to be at the table ? He sees the opportunity to go after the blue collar vote in Ohio . And put the death brawl , end this campaign , but in the process , I think he is clouding the larger message that ... @!COKIE-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Well , not to mention what happens in the general election . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . But that 's gon na have to be the last word for right now though . It was great . " The Sunday Funnies " are coming up . And here 's a preview . Mike Huckabee on " Saturday Night Live . " @!MIKE-HUCKABEE-@120# Mike Huckabee does not overstay his welcome . When it 's time for me to go , I 'll know . And I 'll exit out with class and grace . @!SETH-MYERS-@1 " SATU# Well , that is really good to know . We appreciate you stopping by , governor . Governor Mike Huckabee , everyone . Governor , Governor Huckabee ? @!MIKE-HUCKABEE-@120# Seth ? @!SETH-MYERS-@1 " SATU# I think we 're done now , sir . @!MIKE-HUCKABEE-@120# Oh , right . @!SETH-MYERS-@1 " SATU# Yeah . @!MIKE-HUCKABEE-@120# You know normally I pick up on those things . Sorry . @!SETH-MYERS-@1 " SATU# All right . Governor Mike Huckabee everybody . @!COMMERCIAL-BREAK-# GRAPHICS : THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS '

@@4026341 JOE WITTE , announcer : TODAY THROWS A WEDDING : RACE FOR THE ALTAR is brought to you by ... @!MATT-LAUER-co-hos : And what do you say we throw a wedding ? @!MEREDITH-VIEIRA-c : Why not ? Let 's do it . @!LAUER : OK . Our RACE TO THE ALTAR is over . It 's time for LaDonna and Darnell to tie the knot in an East meets West themed wedding . And we 're going to do it right now . First we want to tell you that the wedding will be presided over by this gentleman right here . He is Pastor Willie Butler . And he is from -- actually , he used to be LaDonna 's pastor , and he is with the Project Dreams Ministries . And he met LaDonna when she was only eight years old . He used to be in Sugarland , Texas . @!VIEIRA : And here he is now , the groom , Darnell Suggs . LaDonna and Darnell have been together for over three years . He looks pretty cool and collected . Decided to surprise LaDonna with a special vacation to Egypt . All LaDonna had @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Day . While standing by the Sphinx , Darnell popped the question and LaDonna , as you know , said yes . @!LAUER : Let 's talk about the proud parents now , shall we ? This is Steve and Jacqueline Suggs . They are the parents of the groom . They have been married for 27 years , and their children still cringe , but they call each other , romantically , " Butter . " They just get along wonderfully . And Jacqueline , by the way , told Darnell that LaDonna was the one for him very early on after they met. @!VIEIRA : And then Donna Bradford , LaDonna 's mother . We have fallen in love with her . She is from historic Tuskegee , Alabama . She met LaDonna 's father , Wade , who was a police officer and World War II vet on her first day at work in an area hospital . Wade and Donna fell in love and they were soul mates . LaDonna 's dad , Wade , however , passed away in May of 1993 . LaDonna was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!LAUER : We have got a wonderful bridal party and we 're starting now with Christian Davis and Dana Suggs . Christian and Darnell are simply best friends since they met in high school . And Dana is Darnell 's baby sister . She 's 15 years old , in the 10th grade and she is one of Darnell 's favorite people in the whole world . @!VIEIRA : And up next , Leigh Torrence and Jessica Okake . You might actually recognize Leigh . He 's currently cornerback of the Washington Redskins in the NFL . Leigh and Darnell have known each other for over 22 years . And , ladies , he is single . Growing up , Leigh and Darnell were constantly together playing sports . Leigh was there when Darnell almost broke his neck , and Leigh was also there when Darnell did break his wrist . And Jessica , one of LaDonna 's closest friends . LaDonna used to call her Jessie Bobohead , when they were in kindergarten . @!LAUER : By the way , the bridal party all wearing the outfits you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ weeks . Here 's Matthew McFarland and Lauren Barnes . Matthew is a grad student at Florida State University . When they were in college , Matthew and Darnell would order pizza every night and watch " Forrest Gump " over and over again . Lauren Barnes and LaDonna met a few years back in college . LaDonna says that Lauren is the one who will feed your ego when you need it . And of course we all need that from time to time . @!VIEIRA : We absolutely do . And now the best man and the maid of honor , Damon Suggs and Gwedette Bradford . Damon , Darnell 's younger brother , currently a senior at Georgia Southern University . When the Suggs were growing up , everyone would stay away from Damon whenever he was eating because he was a messy eater , would get his mess all over everyone else , especially barbecue . And Gwedette Bradford , LaDonna 's big sister , the apple of her eye . The two are 18 months apart and as close as sisters can be . Gwedette @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ now , at last , as the music changes to " At Last , " here comes the bride . LaDonna Bradford in her Priscilla of Boston gown . She 's being escorted by her grandfather Jackson C. Summers or , as family and friends call him , " J.C . " LaDonna 's father , as we mentioned , passed away when she was eight years old . Her grandfather has been an instrumental part of her life . And do n't tell the other grandkids , but I think LaDonna is J.C . ' s favorite . LaDonna 's 24 years old , a nuclear reactor inspector for the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission , and she knew Darnell was the one when he started driving 300 miles just to sit in on her college design classes whenever she had a presentation . How beautiful does she look ? @!VIEIRA : She is absolutely stunning . The perfect gown for her . Our audience was right . She looks beautiful . @!LAUER : And ladies and gentlemen , it 's time now for the wedding of LaDonna and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!Ms-LaDONNA-BRADFOR : ( Holding out bouquet ) Gwedette . Pastor WILLIE BUTLER : Dearly beloved , we have come together today in the presence of God to witness the joining of this man , Darnell Suggs , to this woman , LaDonna Bradford , in holy matrimony . I 've known LaDonna since she was eight years old . I baptized her and I conducted her father 's funeral . I 've watched her grow up into a -- to be a beautiful and smart and elegant young lady . And as for Darnell , he is so respectful . I almost see a mirror image between the two of them . Now , marriage is one of the highest and happiest of all the human relationships . And I am so very happy to be able to share this special day with two such deserving couple . Darnell and LaDonna , if you have both considered the commitment that you 're about to enter , please join your hands . And as for your vows , you both have chosen to speak directly from your heart . Darnell @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ day to offer my heart , my soul and to pledge my love to you for a lifetime . As God is our witness , I pray that we will continue to grow in his will , that we will live according to his will and that we will always try to love each other as much as he loves us . LaDonna , you 're my best friend , my confidant and the love of my life . I would go to the ends of the earth just to see you smile , to see you laugh , to kiss you softly , to hold you tenderly and to be at your side to ease your fears . I stand here a better man because of you . For as long as I live , I promise to love you for better or worse , for richer or poorer , in sickness and in health , to guide and to protect you , to honor and respect you , and to always be faithful to you . I love you . Pastor BUTLER : LaDonna : @!Ms-BRADFORD : Darnell @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ grandfather just gave me to you in marriage . As we enter upon life 's privileges and joys , I will look to you to be the head of our home as we look to Christ to be the head of the church . I love you with all of my heart . You are my very best friend , and we have known each other for this time and I love you dearly . I promise you fidelity . I promise you loyalty . I promise to be there for you through thick and thin , when life is good , when it 's bad , when our relationship is at its best and at -- when it is an effort . I promise to be there for you . I promise to comfort you . I promise to laugh with you and love you in all that we do . I will love you with every beat of my heart from now for as long as we both shall live . And this is my solemn vow to you . Pastor BUTLER : Darnell , do you take @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ lawfully wedded wife , before these witnesses , forsaking all others till death do you part ? @!Mr-SUGGS : I do . Pastor BUTLER : LaDonna , do you take this man whose hand you now hold to be your lawfully wedded husband , before these witnesses , forsaking all others till death do you part ? @!Ms-BRADFORD : I do . Pastor BUTLER : Wedding rings are circular for a reason . They represent an unending love and commitment , which you are making to one another today . May these rings be the seal of a pure and imperishable faith that you have now pledged to each other . Darnell , would you please repeat after me , please ? This ring is a sign of my constant faith and abiding love . @!Mr-SUGGS : This ring is a sign of my constant faith and abiding love . Pastor BUTLER : LaDonna , would you please repeat after me , please ? This ring is a sign of my constant faith and abiding love . @!Ms-BRADFORD : This ring is a sign of my constant faith and abiding @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ these rings have -- that have no end be a symbol of a lifetime of love and of peace . Now , by virtue of the authority vested in me as a minister of the gospel of Christ and in accordance with the sovereign laws of the sovereign state of New York , I now pronounce you husband and wife . You may kiss your bride . Ladies and gentlemen , for the very first time , Mr. and Mrs. Darnell Suggs. @!LAUER : Well , there they are , the newly joined Mr. and Mrs. Darnell Suggs . They jumped a broom , which is part of the African-American tradition , symbolizing the blessed union of marriage . @!VIEIRA : And because it 's our show , we get to talk to them first . @!Mr-SUGGS : Oh . @!VIEIRA : Oh . @!LAUER : Congratulations . @!Mr-SUGGS : Thank you so much . @!LAUER : It was fantastic . @!VIEIRA : Congratulations . @!LAUER : Congratulations . @!Mr-SUGGS : Thank you so much . @!LAUER : You look so beautiful . @!VIEIRA : Such beautiful , beautiful vows @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I do n't . I 've got to get you one . So , I mean ... @!VIEIRA : How does it feel ? @!LAUER : Yeah . @!Mr-SUGGS : Oh ... @!Ms-SUGGS : Fantastic . I love him so much . @!VIEIRA : Really ? @!Ms-SUGGS : Yes ! @!VIEIRA : No , we can tell that . @!Mr-SUGGS : Oh , my gosh . @!LAUER : Do you -- do you regret -- I do n't mean about Darnell . I mean , do you regret anything about turning over all the planning of your wedding to our viewers ? @!Ms-SUGGS : Oh , not at all , not at all . I can barely deal with what we had to deal with . I can only imagine having to do what you guys did for us . We appreciate it so much . @!VIEIRA : And we love what both of you said to each other . You were talking about how you 're a better man for having her in her life every day . @!Mr-SUGGS : I am . I am , every single day @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ talked about your dad smiling down ... @!VIEIRA : Yeah . Yeah . @!Ms-SUGGS : I know he is. @!VIEIRA : Yeah . @!LAUER : ... and how proud he would be of your choice . @!Ms-SUGGS : I know he would be . I know he would be . @!VIEIRA : Well , we 're so proud to be able to host the wedding for you guys . @!Mr-SUGGS : Oh , thank you all so much . @!Ms-SUGGS : Oh , thank you so much . @!VIEIRA : Ca n't think of a lovelier couple . @!Ms-SUGGS : Thank you . @!VIEIRA : Really , everybody , everybody 's who 's had the privilege to deal with you over the past few weeks says the same thing . You are two charming , lovely young people who deserve just happiness in your life . @!Mr-SUGGS : Thank you . @!Ms-SUGGS : Thank you . @!LAUER : We have a couple things to do . First of all , we 'd like to offer a toast to you two . @!VIEIRA : Yes , we would . @!LAUER : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's one piece of unfinished business . @!Ms-SUGGS : There is ? @!VIEIRA : Honeymoon . @!Mr-SUGGS : Oh , there it is. @!LAUER : And I 'm betting it 's the thing you were looking forward to most . @!Ms-SUGGS : Yes . Yes . @!LAUER : We 're going to find out where you 're going to be going on a honeymoon . @!Ms-SUGGS : Whoo ! @!Mr-SUGGS : That 's right . @!VIEIRA : We know you 're going somewhere . @!Ms-SUGGS : That 's right . @!VIEIRA : We 'll find out where . @!LAUER : Well , Mr. and Mrs. Suggs , congratulations again . @!VIEIRA : Congratulations . @!LAUER : We 'll see you in just a second . @!Ms-SUGGS : Thank you so much . @!LAUER : We 're back in a moment . This is TODAY on NBC . *** @!VIEIRA : And we are back with the newly united LaDonna and Darnell Suggs . And in the break Darnell said , We are married , and then LaDonna said , We are so married . And Ann pointed out you now @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!Ms-SUGGS : That 's true . That 's true . @!VIEIRA : Congratulations . @!ANN-CURRY-anchor : Yeah . @!Mr-SUGGS : Thank you . @!VIEIRA : But we wanted to honor you with a toast , so I can give you each -- here 's for LaDonna. @!LAUER : There you go , Al and Ann . @!CURRY : Thanks . @!VIEIRA : And Darnell . We 've all been married a little while and we have a little bit of advice to impart , but mostly just a toast to tell you how much we care about you . @!LAUER : You two won our RACE TO THE ALTAR , and so that was the past and now the future begins . Your lives together begin . Darnell , you 're a computer engineer . You know that in life there is no backspace key , right , OK ? Everything moves forward . You also know , to use computer lingo , that when you first laid eyes on LaDonna your heart did a double click , did n't it ? @!Mr-SUGGS : That 's right . @!VIEIRA @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ propose , you opted for some old-fashioned romance . New Year 's Day , your birthday actually , the Egyptian pyramids , and when Darnell got down on one knee and asked you to be his bride , you actually were as silent as a sphinx for a moment and then you said yes . And on that day you were surrounded by a lot of strangers in Egypt and today you are embraced by your friends and your family and your extended family here at TODAY . @!LAUER : And , LaDonna , you 're a nuclear reactor inspector , OK . So you know what happens , you know the power when an atom is split apart . @!Ms-SUGGS : That 's right . @!LAUER : And now you 're experiencing the power of what can happen when two people come together . And so for our couple from Georgia who met in Boston , pledged their love in Egypt and have now shown their commitment in New York ... @!VIEIRA : We hope this toast sets you off in the right direction . @!CURRY : Hm . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and Mrs. Suggs. @!LAUER : Cheers . @!VIEIRA : Cheers . @!LAUER : Congratulations . @!VIEIRA : Congratulations . @!CURRY : Congratulations . @!VIEIRA : Mm. @!Ms-SUGGS : Very nice . @!VIEIRA : Now you want to go do it again ? Probably ... ( unintelligible ) ... it went so fast . @!Ms-SUGGS : It did . It went so fast . @!VIEIRA : It does . @!Ms-SUGGS : Oh , my goodness . @!Mr-SUGGS : Oh , man . @!LAUER : Well , you 'll get to watch it with everyone else ... @!VIEIRA : Oh , yeah . @!LAUER : ... on the rerun . I hope you TiVoed it . @!AL-ROKER-reporting : Yeah . @!Ms-SUGGS : Oh , yeah . Oh , yeah . Definitely . @!Mr-SUGGS : ( Unintelligible ) @!LAUER : So when we come back -- we 're going to take a little break . We 're going to let everything sink in . We 're going to let you take a deep breath , which , by the way , I saw the biggest sigh from you when the pastor said , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . " I watched your shoulders go up and you took that deep breath and he pronounced you man and wife . Well , we 're going to tell you where you 're going to be headed on your honeymoon in just a little while . @!Ms-SUGGS : OK. @!LAUER : But first , as we have to say here , this is TODAY on NBC . *** @!LAUER : You know , we mentioned a second ago their occupations . We 've got a nuclear reactor inspector and a computer engineer . You guys could be in TV , though , because I was really impressed by -- no cue cards , nothing else . @!VIEIRA : Yeah . @!LAUER : You guys went through those vows and they were not short ... @!ROKER : Yep . @!LAUER : ... perfectly . @!VIEIRA : No . Perfectly . @!LAUER : How nervous were you about that ? @!Mr-SUGGS : Just trying not to lock my knees up there . Trying to make it out good and comfortable . @!VIEIRA : And I knew you were nervous beforehand about not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!Ms-SUGGS : I was very nervous . @!VIEIRA : ... but you were wonderful because you spoke from your heart . @!Ms-SUGGS : Thank you . I did . I did . And he -- I mean , once I heard his vows , I was , like , I do n't know what I wrote but , you know , this is how I feel . @!ROKER : Well , it was perfect . @!VIEIRA : Oh . That 's exactly right . Yeah . @!CURRY : Yeah , it was awesome . @!VIEIRA : Yeah . @!CURRY : You did such a great job . @!Ms-SUGGS : Thank you . @!CURRY : And we all felt it . I have to say , I do n't know if there was a dry eye . Really , you made us all cry because it was so pure and ... ( unintelligible ) . Well done . @!LAUER : We want to mention we 've got all your guests surrounding us here . @!Ms-SUGGS : Yeah . @!LAUER : And they 're all going to be heading here from the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is a beautiful location ... @!VIEIRA : It is gorgeous . @!LAUER : ... for your reception , which will start momentarily . And so we 've got a lot -- you 've got a lot -- now the hard part is over . The fun part begins . @!VIEIRA : Well , yeah , but ... @!LAUER : You get to party . @!VIEIRA : We mentioned yesterday how you were taking dance lessons because you 've got to get out there and do your first dance . @!Mr-SUGGS : We do . @!Ms-SUGGS : We do . @!Mr-SUGGS : We do . @!VIEIRA : What 's it going to be ? @!Mr-SUGGS : We ca n't reveal that right now . Group : ( In unison ) Oh ! @!VIEIRA : Playing sly . @!Mr-SUGGS : Little bit later , little bit later . @!Ms-SUGGS : ( Unintelligible ) @!VIEIRA : I 'm sure it 'll be great . @!Mr-SUGGS : Great . @!VIEIRA : We 'll be looking forward to it . @!Ms-SUGGS : Thank you . @!LAUER : And we 'll find out about your honeymoon @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!Mr-SUGGS : Thank you . @!LAUER : We 're back after these messages . @!Mr-SUGGS : Thank you . @!Ms-SUGGS : Thank you . '

@@4026541 ROBERT @!SMITH , host : This is TALK OF THE NATION . I 'm Robert Smith in Washington . You know , I think we 've been rock-and-roll heroes in our own minds . As a kid , perhaps you also played air guitar riffs and sung into hairspray bottles instead of a microphone . Well , some may outgrow the fantasy of performing in a rock band , others nurture it . In Portland , Oregon , there 's a camp where girls age 8 to 18 have one week to learn how to play electric guitars , bang drums , write lyrics and generally learn how to rock out in a band . Filmmakers Arne Johnson and Shane King spent a week trailing some girls that despite tears and grumbling would rather be in the band than with the band . @(Soundbite-of-docum) @!LAURA : Yeah , well , I know people in this band , I know people in this band and they 're like , talking about how their friends with all these in bands , why do n't you start your own band , super genius , you know what I mean ? That 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!SMITH : That 's 15-year-old Laura , one of the girls featured in the documentary , " Girls Rock ! " We 'll have the - you have to read it that way , " Girls Rock ! " We 'll have the director and one of the stars on today . If you have questions about Rock ' n Roll Camp for Girls or if you were or ever have been or have a girl who rocks , our number here in Washington is 800-989-8255 . Our e-mail address is talk@npr.org , and you can also comment on our blog . It 's at npr.org/blogofthenation . And Arne Johnson , co-director of " Girls Rock ! " joins us from Palentine(ph) Recording Studios in Portland , Oregon . Welcome to the show . @!Mr-ARNE-JOHNSON-@1 : Thanks a lot . @!SMITH : Is that Palentine , Palantine(ph) ? @!Mr-JOHNSON : Palatine . I ... @!SMITH : Palatine . @!Mr-JOHNSON : ... ( Unintelligible ) that sounds right . @!SMITH : There you go . Why did you choose to make a documentary about a rock-and- roll girls camp ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ big fan of this band Sleeter Kinney and I heard Carrie Brownstein who 's a member of that band who teaches at the camp just about every year . Marissa can answer this more accurately how long she 's been doing that but she co-wrote the songs that 's the sort of camp theme song . And I heard her talking about the camp and it was a very inspiring speech . Somebody had asked her if there 's any future for rock and roll and she was like , I 've seen 9-year-olds create noise(ph) pop masterpieces and I know there 's future for music . And as soon as I heard that , you know , the idea of this somebody of Carrie Brownstein 's stature teaching little girls how to rock out was something I wanted to find more about . @!SMITH : Well , you gave away our surprise . Sitting next to him is Marisa Anderson . She 's an artistic director and instructor at Rock ' n Roll Camp for Girls and she also joins us from Palatine Recording Studios in Portland , Oregon @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Nice to be here . @!SMITH : Well , so what brought you to Rock ' n Roll Camp for Girls ? @!Ms-ANDERSON : I came to rock camp as a volunteer . In 2004 , the band that I have been playing in ended and I was looking for a way to spend my time still playing music but staying home instead of being on tour all the time . And I started as a volunteer , became an instructor and , yeah , now I 'm the artistic director . @!SMITH : How early did you start playing an instrument ? You play an instrument or ... @!Ms-ANDERSON : I do . I play many instruments . I started playing music when I was 7 years old . @!SMITH : It was n't rock and roll or were you put you through sort of ... @!Ms-ANDERSON : No. @!SMITH : ... classical music training ? @!Ms-ANDERSON : I was playing classical music from about the age of 7 until about the age of 19 . I dropped out of college . I was in classical guitar studies . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that was the music that I needed to be playing . @!SMITH : When you were practicing classical music , did you ever sneak into a closet and do some power chords during your teenage years or was this foreign to you ? @!Ms-ANDERSON : I tried . I tried to play some Led Zeppelin riffs . I had a book , you know , because I could read music and I found out that reading Led Zeppelin notation does not make you sound like Jimmy Page . @(Soundbite-of-laugh) @!SMITH : It sounds like you needed a rock-and-roll camp , a little earlier in life . @!Ms-ANDERSON : I did . I needed a place to go where whatever I wanted to do musically was encouraged . @!SMITH : Well , Arne Johnson , were you the only - you and Shane , your co-director also a man , we 're you the only men at the camp during this filming and - I mean , you have these sort of girl empowerment scene and you got two guys at the camera , I mean , how were you greeted @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a certain amount of wariness when we first approached the camp about the idea but they , you know , really never brought up gender to us . And maybe Marissa can talk about more what their conversations were internally but we , you know , they were just worried about the camera , basically . They were worried about how we we 're going to disrupt the camp and make it hard for the girls to focus on their important work . @!SMITH : Come on , blocking up the media is an important part of rock-and-roll studies . @(Soundbite-of-laugh) @!Mr-JOHNSON : Yeah , that 's right . Well , and they do a great job with it . I mean , the awesome thing is once they got over the idea of there 's a camera here , I mean , they had way more important stuff to do . They were going to perform in front of 750 people , a song they were writing and we were highly insignificant compared to that , honestly . @!SMITH : Marissa , when these girls come to the camp @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and what they want to do ? Or is this a little bit of a journey of discovery for them as they 're there ? @!Ms-ANDERSON : I 'd say both of those things are true because we are a self- esteem program for girls that uses music as our means . @!SMITH : Well , that does n't sound as much fun as rock-and-roll camp . @!Ms-ANDERSON : It does n't but it actually is more fun . One of the ways that we do that is all the girls have to write their own songs . All the bands that perform perform songs they 've written that week . And that creates a dynamic where you might be like , yeah , I love death metal , I love it and I 'm going to play it and - but then when you start to write your own song maybe like what your band is feeling or what your feeling comes out as a power ballad , like , who knows . So even if kids have strong musical taste and musical opinions , sort of the group @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with a compromise but with like the vision of the whole . @!SMITH : Do girls seem intimidated by the rock-and-roll world ? I mean , are they there because they feel like there 's not a natural course for them to get into this or maybe that society tells them that they should be practicing classical scales instead of power chords and screaming and drums ? @!Ms-ANDERSON : I think that by now , I mean , the camp has been in action since 2001 and enough girls have gone through the program and there has been enough media attention on it that I think that girls come in knowing its their space . And also even if they did n't know it before they got there , once they walk in , it 's pretty clear by the layout of the building and the stuff on the walls and just sort of the general aspect of the place . @!SMITH : We 're talking about rock-and-roll girls camp . We 'll get to you in just a second , Arne , but we wanted to speak to - @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!JUSTINE-@1Caller@2 : ( Unintelligible ) How are you ? @!SMITH : Go ahead , Justine . @!JUSTINE : I just love the idea of the camp . If I was 17 , I would be there . I have started my own first band when I was 45 - I 'm 47 now - with my friend , Mary(ph) . We both love punk rock and there was so much old music that was out there that was n't being played so we started a band and it 's been really a highlight of my life . It 's not only empowering but it 's just - I just look forward to writing , paying , hanging out with my band , playing in front of the young people that do n't know about the music . And I 've got to say it 's - I 'm just totally behind it and it has really changed my life . @!SMITH : Well , thanks , Justine . Let 's go now to Hope(ph) . Hope calls us from Redding , California . Hey , Hope . Hope , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : Okay . Hello . I am Hope Rogers(ph) . I went to rock camp two years ago . @!SMITH : Really ? How old are you , Hope ? @!HOPE : Eleven . @!SMITH : Eleven . How was the camp ? @!HOPE : It was really fun . I got a lot better at guitar , like they taught me a lot and it was - and I was on stage there for the second time , it was really cool . @!SMITH : What kind of rock do you play ? And what kind of instrument ? @!HOPE : I play guitar . @!SMITH : Uh-huh . And what kind of music do you like ? @!HOPE : Just rock , like my favorite band is The Beatles . @!SMITH : There you go . A wise band . And so would you - had you had any experience before you went to rock camp ? @!HOPE : Yeah . I had played for like one year before . @!SMITH : Is this one of those things that parents encourage their kids to go to or did @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!HOPE : No . My aunt found it in a magazine and he called my mom and sent the magazine to her . And my mom showed me about it and then we applied and we had to wait and wait and wait for a long time but we got in , me and my sister . @!SMITH : So do you still keep it up ? Do you play in a band and try to do - to write music and such ? @!HOPE : Well , I do n't - I 'm not in a band and I write music sometimes - it 's not very good . But , yeah , I 'm still playing . @!SMITH : What do you think , Marisa . Is this a common story ? @!Ms-ANDERSON : I think it 's a common story , yeah . Girls come for a year or two years and then go home and , you know , kids are really busy right now , and there 's so many activities . But once you have a little music foundation , you can come back @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ your life . And I 'd also like to address what the previous caller , I think , Justine said , and - we have ladies rock camps too . The biggest fundraiser that we hold every year is our ladies rock camp weekend . We hold three of them . And it 's for women who wish that they were a camp for them when they were girls and they 'd get the same curriculum . We run them through the same program but it 's condensed - it 's a weekend instead of a week . So any ladies out there who are hearing this and wishing ... @!SMITH : It 's not too late . @!Ms-ANDERSON : It 's not - it 's never too late . I think the oldest ladies rock camper we ever had was 67. @!SMITH : Absolutely . @!Ms-ANDERSON : And it 's her first time playing the bass . @!SMITH : Arne Johnson , who 's co-director of the documentary " Girls Rock ! " did you have a tough time getting young women to tell their stories to you or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ at rock camp ? @!Ms-JOHNSON : Well , you know , we went and met a lot of the girls before rock camp . We interviewed them . We traveled around the country and interviewed them beforehand . And so we had a chance to really kind of get to know them and hear some of the things that they were thinking about and why they were going to camp . And one of the cool things that started to happen when you asked earlier about us being two guys on the film and one of the things that started to happen that was kind of interesting was that when the girls would , you know , for those who have n't seen the film yet , as Marissa mentioned , it 's not just about music ; it 's also about a lot of issues that girls confront in their lives . And one of the things that started to happen is girls would say something in passing like we 're talking to Laura , I mean , she was like , you know , boys would n't let @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , and she started to move on , like you know what I mean . And we had to keep saying , well , Laura , actually we do n't know what you mean , like we 're boys , please explain to us . And I felt like the girls started to get really excited as if they were sort of our tour guides into what it was like to be a girl in this era . And I think after a while that became a really special energy that we - that the film itself really became about that . @!SMITH : We 're talking about rock-and-roll girls camp . Thanks for your phone call , Hope . You 're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News . Let 's speak with John(ph) now . John is calling us from Waterford , Michigan . @(Soundbite-of-baby-) @!SMITH : How 's it going , John ? I hear a baby in a background rocking out . @!JOHN-@1Caller@2 : ( Unintelligible ) . I just wanted to thank the other guest for going in and sharing their stories . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is an intense fan of the Foo Fighters , and I just can not wait to get her into something like this . And I hope this exist when she 's four , I think , it 's going to be a fantastic experience . @!SMITH : Well , it sounds like the Foo Fighters are playing in the background or at least some sort of fighting , so I 'm going to let - drop this phone line but let 's - I did want to ask our two guests . You know , you speak of self-empowerment and it 's certainly comes out of rock and roll , but is it actually overt at the camp ? I mean , do you actually have sessions where you talk specifically about empowerment and that sort of thing or is that just one of the byproducts of rocking out ? @!Ms-ANDERSON : We have workshops during the week of camp . One of the workshops that every camper goes through is called Image and Identity . And it 's about deconstructing media images of girls and talking about issues that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ their parents . And then we also do - every session of camp creates a zine and they make , you know , every girl is responsible for a page and there 's always a topic like things I hate or things I love . And it 's a forum for them to get to talk about whatever is on their mind . And we also have self-defense workshops for every girl that comes through , so they learn that physical self skills to keep themselves safe . @!SMITH : How interesting . @!Ms-ANDERSON : I think . .. @!Mr-JOHNSON : I think what - oh , sorry . Robert , I was going to add that one of the things we really observed too was that the self-esteem stuff is really interwoven in the music because part of what happens with rock and roll and why girls are often hesitant to do it is that a lot of it is very loud - and in the movie , Carrie Brownstein talks about how you should never underestimate the power of volume and hearing your voice echo throughout a room @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and making these noises and being encouraged to ( unintelligible ) from the camp talks a lot about how girls are afraid to hit the drums hard enough to make enough to make enough noise . So once you get the girls hitting the drums , you 're also , you know , making them , you know , understand how to make great rock and roll but they 're also beginning to take up more space and feel like they can do anything that they want to and so we watch that kind of thing happen over and over again while we were there . @!SMITH : Let 's speak with Lisa(ph) . Lisa is in Beaverton , Oregon . @!LISA-@1Caller@2 : Hi . @!SMITH : Go ahead , Lisa . @!LISA : Hi . I am the mother a 5 and 7-year-old daughters who really take to this sort of a thing . I notice that in kind of every venue of musical expression , but I have a 7-year-old who has been creating her own compositions for years and she 'll sing the same composition of her @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and then move on to another one . @!SMITH : And it sort of brings up the question for girls who ca n't get to the rock camp . What are both of your suggestions , quickly , for - can you encourage rock at home ? @!Ms-ANDERSON : You can . And I wanted to say there 's more rock camps than just the Portland one . We are part of an alliance called the Girls Rock Camp Alliance . And there are - there 's a camp in New York , in South Carolina , in Chicago , in Philadelphia . There 's one starting in New York and there 's one starting in London . And I think there 's more and there 's - if you go to our Web site , it will talk about all the different areas in the country where you can find girls rock camps . @!Mr-JOHNSON : Marissa 's also co-edited or edited a book that 's coming out called " The Rock ' n Roll Camp for Girls " book out of Chronicle Books and it will be out @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " Indie Girl " which is several kinds of creative projects , one of which is forming a band but also making a zine and all that kind of stuff too . So they are definitely I think the camp has really inspired a lot of people to create more resources beyond the camp for girls . @!SMITH : So Arne , what did you learn when you were spending all this time both at the camp and editing your documentary ? @!Mr-JOHNSON : Well , I think for me one of the biggest learning experiences was , you know , I grew up in a , you know , a very strongly political family and my mother was , you know , a feminist and really thought us how to , you know , to think about sexism and it was , you know , so for a long time , I had it really kind of instinctive , more political feeling about women 's place in society . And I think that the first interview where we sat down with , you know , a 15-year- old girl @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ affecting them on a visceral level that , you know , what is was like seeing , like Laura told us , you know , she looks around and she sees no one in media that looks like her . And to hear that that 's not just stupid or it 's not just a drag but it actually is causing young girls a lot of pain to see that was a truly transformational experience for me . And then also seeing how the magic of the camp so quickly lifted that feeling for these girls who was often overwhelming ... @!SMITH : Thank you very much , Arne Johnson is co-director of " Girls Rock ! " and Marisa Anderson is artistic director and instructor at Rock ' n Roll Camp for Girls . This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News . I 'm Robert Smith . '

@@4026941 MICHEL @!MARTIN , host : I 'm Michel Martin , and this is TELL ME MORE from NPR News . A good-hearted but down-on-his-luck dreamer is on the brink of disaster . His only hope seems to be in one big night , one big pay day , and he just can not figure out how to make it work . Just when all seems lost , a surprising turn just might allow his dream to come true . That 's been a standard Hollywood storyline since the early days of film , but " Honeydripper " is anything but your standard Hollywood movie . Set in the cotton fields of Jim Crow Alabama , " Honeydripper " mixes music with an honest look at the daily humiliations of life endured by African-Americans in the segregated South . " Honeydripper " is up for two prizes tonight at the NAACP Image Awards . The film is the latest project of independent filmmaker John Sayles and his producer and life-partner , Maggie Renzi . They join me in our studio to talk about " Honeydripper " and , hopefully , a bit about themselves . Welcome . Thanks for coming @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " Honeydripper " ) : Hello . Ms. MAGGIE RENZI ( Producer , " Honeydripper " ) : Nice to be here . @!MARTIN : John Sayles , you wrote this film . How did this story come to you ? Mr. SAYLES : You know , it was rattling around in my head for quite a long time . It 's inspired , not based , on a short story that I wrote that 's in my last story collection , " Dillinger in Hollywood . " And I think it came out of just a long experience with American music , which comes up from the South , and thinking about that sea change that happened when that solid-body electric guitar showed up and an awful lot of people who played music had to either get on board or get left behind . @!MARTIN : " Honeydripper " is about a lot of things . It 's about race . It 's about change . It 's very much about music , and I want to tell a little bit about the story . Danny Glover plays a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Purvis , and here 's a scene where I think he talks about what music can mean . Let 's play it . qwq @ ( Soundbite-of-film , Mr. DANNY GLOVER ( Actor ) : ( As Tyrone Purvis ) See this old boy there , the first one , he know how to play all of them kinds of African instruments . I mean , he could play mud if you give him a key and a tempo . Yeah , he 's got music in his head and in his heart . In every damn piece of him , there 's music . And one day , master 's away , and he alone in that room with that piano . Mr. CHARLES DUTTON ( Actor ) : ( As Maceo ) Yeah , watch out now . Mr. GLOVER : ( As Purvis ) And he goes over , and he sits down on the bench , and he spreads his fingers over it the way he 's seen many a white player do , and he thinks ... qwq @ ( Soundbite-of-music Mr. GLOVER : ( @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ me . I could do some damage with this thing . @!MARTIN : That was Danny Glover , and the other voice you heard was that of Charles Dutton . How did that scene come to you ? It 's a remarkable image . Mr. SAYLES : I started thinking about that very scene . And when I was thinking about scene - well , who was the first guy ? You know , there was in Civil War days , there was a guy named Blind Tom who was a slave , and he played classical music . And it was like he was from outer space or something for people then , but he was just a musician , you know , and he had a great ear and he could play . American music , I think , is the place where Americans meet first , where ethnic groups meet first , where racial groups meet first . Before they can even look each other in the eye , they 're listening to each other 's music . @!MARTIN : Do you play ? Mr. SAYLES : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , but music talks to me , all kinds of music . @!MARTIN : Maggie , talk to me about the plot . Tell me a little bit more about the plot for those who have n't seen it . Do n't give all the good stuff away . Ms. RENZI : I wo n't give the good stuff away , but in a way what you said before , it really describes it . It 's a guy who has got to move forward . He 's got to change . He has to deal with some demons that have been dogging him , which actually , as it happens , has to do with a guitar player he killed as a young man . We do n't know that for a while . And there 's a spirit , the spirit of the Blues , who 's played Keb'Mo ' , a character John calls Possum , who 's a blind guitar player who turns up to taunt him and to provoke him into making this change . He has what 's one of my favorite lines in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ player to come and change his life . qwq @ ( Soundbite-of-film , @!KEB'MO-@1Musician , : ( As Possum ) ( As Purvis ) You waiting on somebody ? qwq @ ( Soundbite-of-music Ms. RENZI : And Keb'Mo 's character says nothing on that train 's gon na change your luck , Tyrone . qwq @ ( Soundbite-of-film , @!KEB'MO ' : ( As Possum ) ... gon na change your luck , Tyrone . You 're going to have to save your own self . Mr. GLOVER : ( As Purvis ) What do you know about anything ? @!KEB'MO ' : ( As Possum ) Oh , nothing much , but I know you from way back . @(Soundbite-of-music) @!Ms-RENZI : And there 's a lot of times where we 've been making this movie and going around and promoting it , because we 're releasing it ourselves , that I keep thinking Maggie , nothing in this - on that train is going to change your life . You 've got to change it by yourself . @(Soundbite-of-laugh) @!MARTIN : I want to talk more about that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that you 're doing . But before we talk about the business , I want to talk about the movie itself . A lot of the - the typical Hollywood movie has like the hero , and the other characters kind of revolve around that hero , and in " Honeydripper " and many of your movies , it 's really more about the community . This is , like , your 16th film , and many of them have that sort of quality of everybody 's important . Why do you do it that way ? @!Mr-SAYLES : Well , I think it 's how I see the world . You know , I do n't see it in heroic terms . Also , I was an actor before I was a writer or director , and one of the first things an actor does is you say how does my character see the world ? When I write a screenplay , I read it over , the first draft , and I read every part as if I had to play it . And then you say well @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , what would make me a more three-dimensional person ? What I always tell my actors is I do n't care if you 've only got two pages , we should feel like the camera could follow you off screen and have a total movie that could happen there that would be interesting . I think who we are is partly , you know , when we grew up , where we grew up , who we grew up with , our place in the community , and we do n't have a personality other than that . You know , we 're not little islands . @!MARTIN : You 've got some - Maggie , you 've got some amazing people in this film . You 've got , you know , Danny Glover , Charles Dutton , Lisa Gay Hamilton , Keb'Mo ' , and I 'm not trying to get into your business , but I 'm assuming - I do n't know , but I 'm assuming - you ca n't pay them what they could get for like a " Lethal Weapon . " Ms. @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ just wondering how you managed to do that . Ms. RENZI : We do two things . One is that they do n't have to work for us for very long . Anybody who worked for the full shoot only worked for five weeks . We pay everybody the Screen Actors Guild minimum , which is not chump change , but it certainly is far less than Danny could get paid on any good pay day , the same thing with several of the other people who are in the movie . Part of it is that the quality of the material is very high , and word 's out that John Sayles writes really good roles . And , you know , we heard it , you know , over and over again . Usually not only are most movies not ensemble , but if there 's any black people in it , there 's two . Well , this is an almost entirely black cast . @!MARTIN : And they 're the best friend . Ms. RENZI : Yeah , exactly . They 're the best friend . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ killed or left behind or whatever . @!MARTIN : Or the truth-telling sidekick . Ms. RENZI : You got it . And in this case , no matter where they turned , there was somebody else whose work that they had admired . And it was like an August Wilson play some days , you know , especially because we were there in the Honeydripper Bar a lot of the time . @!MARTIN : And you had - not to give it all away , but as we said that the whole issue here is that Tyrone , Danny Glover 's character , has to save his club , and he 's looking for that big pay day and he 's got to figure out what to do . Then this young fellow comes along , and he 's thinking well , gee , maybe I can get this young guy to , you know - so how did you find him ? He 's actually - gives a great performance ... Ms. RENZI : He 's great . Gary Clark , Jr . @!MARTIN : Gary Clark , Jr @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Our friend Lewis Black , not the comedian but the editor of the Austin Chronicle , and he started South by Southwest - when we told Lewis the story , he said oh , then you 've got to come see Gary Clark , who was rocked in the cradle of Austin music since he was 12 years old when he started playing the guitar . So when we went to see Gary at the Continental Club there , he had just turned 21 , and he was great . And there just are n't that ... @!MARTIN : So he 's not really an actor ? Ms. RENZI : No. @!MARTIN : He does n't see himself as an actor . He sees himself primary as a musician . Ms. RENZI : Yeah , he 's a musician . He 's a guitar player , and he plays this kind of music , which is not common for a young African-American man . @!MARTIN : The film does n't shy away from the real abuse that African-American people suffered daily in the South and just , like , conditions @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we 're not that far away from Reconstruction from slavery , and I just want to play a short clip about that . qwq @ ( Soundbite-of-movie Mr. GARY CLARK , JR . ( Musician , Actor ) : ( As Sonny ) And you 're the piano man ? @!Mr-GLOVER : ( As Tyrone Purvis ) ( As character ) Piano man , arranger , you name it . Mr. CLARK , JR. : ( As Sonny ) That must 've been something traveling the country first-class . Mr. GLOVER : ( As Purvis ) I do n't know about first class , but I seen the country . Mr. CLARK , JR. : ( As Sonny ) How come you stop ? Mr. GLOVER : ( As Purvis ) I got tired carrying another man 's water , did n't want to die in no colored hotel on some night in who-knows-where , Arkansas , and Delilah. ( unintelligible ) . @!MARTIN : Of course , that was Danny Glover and Gary Clark , Jr . How do you integrate that kind of realism into a film without @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ want to see it ? Mr. SAYLES : Well , some of it is that dark undertone , and that 's in the movie . But there 's also this thing that people not only survived , they thrived . They had fun . They created culture . They had music . They supported each other . They had families - you know , all of the things that human beings do despite all the odds . They had a gallows humor about the whole thing , and that 's an important part of the story , too . You know , I always say that the first 50-55 years of motion picture history were part of the problem in terms of race relationships . And when they started to turn , the first couple movies it was , you know , " Nobody Knows the Trouble I 've Seen " would play on the soundtrack every time you saw , you know , a black character . Well , there 's another side of that , which was the joyous side , you know , and often it was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ guess what ? Life exists when there are no white people around , and that 's a lot of what 's in the movie , is that human ability to live and enjoy life and enjoy each other despite this feeling that 's very low over your head . @!MARTIN : Yeah , which is the power of Saturday night at the juke joint or of Sunday morning in church . And , of course , there were plenty of people who partook of both . If you 're just joining us , you 're listening to TELL ME MORE . We 're speaking with filmmaker John Sayles and his producer and partner , Maggie Renzi , about their latest project , " Honeydripper . " Speaking of race , it 's been a discussion point in at least the last couple of years that I 've noticed , the whole question of who gets to tell whose story - you know , whether as white filmmakers telling a story that centers on the African-American experience , a cross-racial experience , but African-Americans at the center of the story . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ storytelling as the filter , as the lens by which the story was told . Mr. SAYLES : Yeah , I 've been doing this since my first novel , you know , which was 1975 . So it 's not anything new to me . I feel it 's like the music , which is the music belongs to everybody , and this is America 's story . You know , it 's like , you know , when there first started being , you know , African-American history departments . Well , they only had to have those because the history was not being taught in American history , and it 's absolutely our history . @!MARTIN : Maggie , any thoughts ? Ms. RENZI : Well , you know , I think this is a question that 's being asked a lot lately , you know . I mean , we made " The Brother From Another Planet , " which is about a black extraterrestrial in Harlem , he 's specifically the African- American experience . Alfre Woodard plays a character in " Passion Fish . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , we made one of the first really significant movies about lesbians , called " Lianna , " and nobody ever said that we couldn't. @!MARTIN : But I do want to ask , because it 's still a question of some folks feeling that they do n't get a chance to have their say . Ms. RENZI : Listen , anybody - I mean , our chance is a chance that we made . Nobody handed us this chance to say what we say , you know . I think we go to interesting places to try to explore a whole lot of different experiences , and I think behind all of this is a lack of compassion and an assumption that we ca n't understand each other . And across history , literature has been written out by people outside their characters . I find it a really - it 's a conversation that makes me sad because it 's so polarizing . We try hard to make the movies be authentic , be respectful of the communities where we make them , and the response that we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for helping to tell our story . @!MARTIN : Maggie , you said something earlier that nobody kind of gave you permission to make these films . That 's true . I mean , the name John Sayles is pretty much synonymous with independent filmmaking . So much has changed since you started . I mean , this used to be something kind of radical and outside the box . Now it 's very well-respected . But is it any easier ? Mr. SAYLES : You know , it 's easier to make a movie . Where the bottleneck is is in exhibition and distribution . There 's only 52 weeks in a year . There 's only so many screens that show non-Hollywood things . So there 's a lot of competition , a lot more than when we started 30 years ago . You know , a good thing that 's changed is now it 's not just possible , but it 's actually kind of a cool thing for well-known actors to be in those movies . When we first started , the idea of alternative cinema @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , of we 're going to tell stories that Hollywood 's not going to tell . I 'd say that 85 to 90 percent of the movies that are made outside of Hollywood now are just look at me , do n't you want to hire me ? Which is fine . You know , it 's like the minor leagues . They 're making very low-budget versions of what will eventually be Hollywood movies if they 're successful . @!MARTIN : You two have been together for quite a long time . I think you 've collaborated on what , like 13 ... Ms. RENZI : Thirteen of the 16. @!MARTIN : ... of the 16 ? Ms. RENZI : And we 've lived together since 1973 . Mr. SAYLES : Yeah , before many people were born . @(Soundbite-of-laugh) @!MARTIN : Yeah , when dinosaurs walked the earth . Ms. RENZI : Right . @!MARTIN : What 's that like - living together , working together ? Ms. RENZI : Oh , it 's good . You know , I think we just keep talking about all those @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Those are people who met on a film set and then never got to work together again , and you know , they were off in ... Mr. SAYLES : Because they were actors . Ms. RENZI : ... yeah exotic locales . And we get to go to whatever exotic locale , like Alabama , together and have our adventures together and make new friends together . And it helps , I think . We successfully make these movies together , and we 're proud of them . @!MARTIN : I hope you do n't mind my asking , but to be so involved in the films - this is the first time I 've met you . Does that bother you that you 're less well-known ? Ms. RENZI : Thank you for asking , girl . You know , it used to bother me , and then I suppose right around the time when I did n't care anymore , the stories started to be about the John and Maggie Show , and I really like it now that is . People know who work with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it happens the way it happens , which is basically a very egalitarian and I hope joyful workplace is what I aim for . And so that 's my distinctive mark on it , and I know that John - you appreciate that as much as I appreciate you as a director . @!MARTIN : Hey , do n't talk for him . Go on - he can speak for himself . Say something nice about her , for God 's sake . Mr. SAYLES : Yeah , I think that one of the advantages that I have is that I have a producer who is on my side . And when I 'm directing , I really have to kind of be caring mostly about what 's in front of the lens . And a lot of what Maggie does is make sure that everything behind it is working . Maggie does it really well , and she also does it making the same movie that I 'm doing . Because so many Hollywood stories are about somebody undermining somebody else and the so- called creative differences and all @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we just do n't have to deal with that . @!MARTIN : So what 's next for you ? Mr. SAYLES : We basically - we financed this movie ourselves , and we 're distributing ourselves . So we have to wait to see how the - if any money comes in , to see if we 're going to make any more movies , which is kind of - that 's the life of an independent , you know , filmmaker . I 'm back to fiction writing , and I 'm writing a novel set during the Philippine-American War from about 1898 to 1903. @!MARTIN : John Sayles and Maggie Renzi are independent filmmakers . Their latest movie , " Honeydripper , " stars Danny Glover , Charles Dutton , Keb'Mo and many others . Thank you both so much for joining us today . Mr. SAYLES : Thanks a lot . Ms. RENZI : My pleasure . @(Soundbite-of-music) @!MARTIN : To take a look at some scenes from " Honeydripper " and find out how you can see it , please go to our Web site at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ today . I 'm Michel Martin , and this is TELL ME MORE from NPR News . Happy Valentine 's Day . We hope you get some chocolates . Let 's talk more tomorrow . '

@@4027141 BILL @!HEMMER , CO-HOST : Welcome to AMERICA 'S ELECTION HEADQUARTERS . And good afternoon or good evening , depending on where you are . I 'm Bill Hemmer. @!MARTHA-MACCALLUM- : And I 'm Martha MacCallum . Good evening , everybody . This is the place for all things politics , your official news show of the 2008 election . @!HEMMER : Let 's begin now with Alert from New York City . Now developing tonight : Eliot Spitzer is stepping down . The Democratic governor is resigning with wife Silda by his side -- offering this apology for allegedly spending tens of thousands of dollars on high- priced hookers. @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!ELIOT-SPITZER-@1D : From those who whom much is given , much is expected . I have been given much -- the love of my family , the faith and trust of the people of New York and the chance to lead this state . I 'm deeply sorry that I did not live up to what was expected of me. @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HEMMER : Spitzer 's resignation goes in effect Monday . Lieutenant Governor David Paterson will take the rein then . Barack Obama is accusing Geraldine Ferraro of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ politics . Ferraro is not backing away from comments that Obama would not be doing so well if he were white . She also insists that her remarks would take another context and are not racist . We will analyze this political firestorm coming up again today in a few minutes . John McCain back in New Hampshire today , thanking voters there for taking part in the January primary that helped him win the Republican nomination ultimately . McCain is also fundraising today in Manchester in Boston , Massachusetts . Hillary Clinton is now falling further behind Barack Obama in a delegate count after the primary in Mississippi . And coming up in a moment here : The big vote in Pennsylvania , why both sides argue a win there is the ticket to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue ? Brit Hume on that , minutes away here . Martha . @!MACCALLUM : All right , Bill . Well , breaking developments tonight in New York 's big sex scandal : Caving in to threats of impeachment and media pressure , Eliot Spitzer quit today over his alleged involvement with a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ CORRESPONDENT - NEW YORK CITY : Hello , Martha . We are now back at the home of Eliot and Silda Spitzer , it is a multimillion dollar apartment building on Fifth Avenue , built by his father . He comes from a family fortune worth $500 million . He will be out of a job on Monday , and could be facing legal trouble . Let 's take a look at this video after he announced his resignation on Monday . Look at his wife . She darted out of the SUV , not even waiting for her husband , quite a different picture of those two just a half hour earlier when he made his announcement . Silda Spitzer 's 21-year long marriage with his -- woman who he met during Harvard Law School was standing by his side when he announced that he was resigning effective Monday . He said that he 's grateful for her love and support and that of his family . He apologized and said he was proud of his accomplishments as governor and he paraphrased one of his predecessors , Teddy Roosevelt @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ back up . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!SPITZER : I go forward with the belief , as others have said , that as human beings , our greatest glory consists not in never falling , but in rising every time that we fall . As I leave public life , I will first do what I need to do to help and heal myself and my family . Then I will try once again outside of politics to serve the common good . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!SHAWN : Well , he will be replaced on Monday by Lieutenant Governor David Paterson . He is a 52-year-old African-American state senator . The minority leader of the State Senate now comes from a very prominent Democratic family . His father is a big time lawyer , a former partner with Harold Ickes in a Long Island law firm . But tonight considering possible legal issues , Eliot Spitzer ' s biggest problem may not be losing his job . But what comes next potentially in court . Martha , back to you . @!MACCALLUM : We will get to more of that later . Thank you very @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on FOX , our next guest is assuming the duties of New York 's lieutenant governor , Spitzer 's arch-nemesis , New York Senate majority leader Joe Bruno in his first national TV interview since Spitzer step down . And , sir , good evening to you . Thank you for your time in Albany . @!JOE-BRUNO-@1R-NY@ : Good evening , Bill . @!HEMMER : Take me back to the past few days . When you first heard about these allegations , what was your first thought ? @!BRUNO : Disbelief . I really thought that somebody was playing some terrible joke . And really , just shocked when we became aware that it was for real , that these things were really unwinding , and then , you know , you think in terms of what do you do about it and how do you go forward and how do you do your job ? @!HEMMER : Yes . Has he telephoned you , or would you even expect that ? @!BRUNO : He did not . I talked to just about everybody but him , and I would @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as you commented , since a year ago or over a year ago , he has seen me as his real rival and he 's done everything within his power to get me out of office and using the state police in allegedly , really , what can be a criminal way . So , we talked a week before , but he really would n't have been calling me as one of his colleagues and best friends . That 's for sure . @!HEMMER : I think the people living here in New York have a pretty good understanding of your relationship with Eliot Spitzer , but for the rest of the country , how would you describe it ? @!BRUNO : Well , it was not productive -- is the best way . I tried everything in every way I could from January and February of last year to get along with him , talked with him , talked with him like a Dutch uncle . I 've been around for some years . He was new . I said you got to be a CEO , you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a prosecutor . You ca n't step all over people . He then comes out that he 's ( INAUDIBLE ) steam roller , he 's going to crush anyone who stands in his way , starting with me , starting with my Republican conference . And so it 's quickly became unproductive in terms of trying to partner and govern . I did the best that I could , but I have n't talked with him until last week since probably July . @!HEMMER : Given that answer , you know , do you consider this a relief ? Do you feel like the state government can be more effective now ? @!BRUNO : Yes , absolutely . It is a relief . I feel very badly for Silda , his wife , his children , his family , and he said the right words , that he 's going to heal himself and heal his relationship with the family . That 's the right place for him to be mentally and emotionally . And I wish him the best in that regard , that he can put his @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . But we are elected to govern , so we 're going forward trying to get a budget down , as we 're supposed to , constitutionally , by the end of this month . It 's been a distraction , no question about it , and very , very difficult to deal with the real world around here , but -- so , this is a relief . We get some certainty , the Constitution is pretty clear in the transition , David Paterson was a colleague of mine in the Senate , and I consider him a real colleague where we can govern , we can partner . You 'll see a whole different attitude . You wo n't see this aggressiveness and this kind of intimidation on his part . So , I look forward to getting things done and getting results on behalf of the people of this state who truly need assistance . @!HEMMER : First on FOX tonight . We certainly appreciate your mind . I know you got a lot of interviews coming up later this evening . Joe Bruno , thank you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the U.S. Attorney 's Office says that there was no deal that was cut , and this is very significant , with the outgoing governor , so what charges , what does that mean ? What is he still facing and could he end up in jail ? Here now , former New York Congressman Rick Lazio ; and former New York prosecutor Lisa Pinto . Welcome to both of you . Lisa , let me start with you . Significant I thought that shortly after this announcement from him , the prosecutor 's office said no , we reached no deal . So , what does that mean for him ? @!LISA-PINTO-FORMER : Well , he has to cooperate . Usually when there is money laundering conspiracy such as the one alleged here , the johns come forward and they cooperate . They agree to plea to a felony and then they will testify against the operators of the ring , and that will get them - keep them out of jail . I believe he 's going to have to eat a felony here . I believe he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ what he did and what he knew about the ring . And I think he 's extremely liable for the money laundering issues because he can not in good conscience say to a jury , I really did n't know that the QAT shell corporation and the Emperor prostitution enterprise were linked . I really thought QAT was a legitimate business enterprise . He ca n't do that . He 's not a regular Joe . He 's a guy with financial savvy and as the wiretap indicates , with all his conversations , he knew exactly what was going on . He talks about the payment . @!MACCALLUM : So , let 's hear the worst scenario , do n't we ? So , these are federal criminal charges that carry specific mandates and guidelines for sentencing . What kind of time could he face ? @!PINTO : Theoretically , five years , but I do n't think that 's going to happen . But he could do five years or more . It depends if he 's found guilty of the violation of Mann Act , violation of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the actual act of prostitution . All that together ? Is it consecutive ? Is it concurrent ? He could do a lot of time . I do n't think that 's going to happen . @!MACCALLUM : All right . That 's what a lot of folks are saying tonight though . Lisa , thank you . Let 's get to the political side of this . Rick , you 'd just heard Joe Bruno . He said , to a certain extent , this is a relief . This is a man who called himself a steam roller and rolled over just about everybody . What 's the thinking now in New York state politics ? @!RICK-LAZIO-@1R@2- : I think that the tone will change in Albany which will be positive . It will be a better chance for David Paterson , for people to come together and try to address some of the problems that Eliot Spitzer came to office promising he would address : lowering Medicaid , bringing jobs , lowering taxes , addressing health care and transportation and education . And it 's important to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ approval numbers were around 20 percent He was really struggling even before this announcement took place . @!MACCALLUM : That 's a pretty quick fall because you 've been there for 14 months and he was brought in on a very strong mandate when he was elected . He did hint today , he said that he would come back and work for the common good . Do you think he imagines a further political career for himself ? @!LAZIO : You know , I ca n't imagine . Eliot Spitzer is a smart man . He 's got to understand the dimensions of this . To me , he 's got about as much political potential as Jim McGreevey . So , I think he needs to move past this and there 's a lot of different ways in which he can contribute . He 's been a public servant . People have criticized him for some of his tactics , but he 's also done some things really well . And there 's going to be a lot of different ways in life , and I have found @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and make a difference and be positive without actually having to hold office . The state has got great needs right now . And you know , I 'm hoping that people pull together . @!MACCALLUM : All right . Rick Lazio and Lisa Pinto , thank you very much . Bill . @!HEMMER : There is a FOX News Alert now from our election headquarters . Geraldine Ferraro , you heard her yesterday in her first national TV interview about these controversial comments about Barack Obama . She is now stepping down as a member of the finance committee of Hillary Clinton . There is a lot of heat from a number of corners yesterday and again today . Ferraro is defending her comments saying that Obama would not be where he is if he were a white man or a woman . Much more on this coming up in a few moments here , Geraldine Ferraro is stepping down from the finance committee of Hillary Clinton . In the meantime : Clinton 's loss is Barack Obama ' s gain yet again . The Illinois senator picking up @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ night . And as we know , every delegate really does count in this race . Tonight : Obama is in his home state and Clinton is in the nation 's capital . Major Garrett is there live now with more . Hey , Major . @!MAJOR-GARRETT-FOX : Hey , Bill . We 'll get to the delegates in a minute . Today , on the campaign trail , since there are two battles play themselves out . One for image and one for pledged delegates . The image one first : Barack Obama was in Chicago posing with about 10 former military commanders to suggest very strongly , visually at least that he 's a proper commander in chief , completely ready for the job . And said one of the reasons he is , is because he had the correct judgment to oppose the Iraq war and Hillary Clinton did not . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!SEN-BARACK-OBAMA- : And the most important national security question since the cold war , I 'm the only candidate who opposed the war in Iraq from the beginning . The judgment was not about the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ States of America would go to war in Iraq . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HEMMER : The other war today or battle that is to say was over pledged delegates . In order to close Obama ' s lead in pledged delegates , one that grew larger after yesterday 's victory in Mississippi , Senator Clinton needs delegates from Florida and Michigan primaries and she needs them to be counted by the Democratic National Committee . Today , she said so , emphatically . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!SEN-HILLARY-CLINTO : The results of those primaries were fair and they should be honored . Over the last few weeks , there has been a lot of discussion about what we should do to ensure that the voters in Florida and Michigan are counted . Well , in my view , there are two options . Honor the results or hold new primary elections . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HEMMER : The negotiations about what to do with Florida and Michigan 's delegates are stalled , and the debate over them and who is the more fit commander in chief , well , that 's going to continue -- location : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , April 22nd as you mentioned there . Major , thanks . Major Garrett in Washington . Now , Martha . @!MACCALLUM : All right , Bill . Well , coming up next : The Pennsylvania primary . Barack Obama is downplaying his chances in the state these days , while Hillary Clinton is basically banking on it . Her camp is saying , quote , " The path to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue , well , it goes right through the state of Pennsylvania . " @!FOX-News-Washingto# BRIT @!HUME , FOX NEWS : Hi , Martha . @!MACCALLUM : So , are they right ? Do you have to win Pennsylvania to win this nomination and go on to win the presidency ? @!HUME : Maybe not . Look , whether he wins Pennsylvania or not , Barack Obama will undoubtedly get a lot of delegates out of Pennsylvania , making it very difficult for Senator Clinton to make much of a headway , make much headway against his delegate lead , and in the end , of course , the delegates are what count . So , the argument @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't win Pennsylvania , you ca n't win the presidency . That there 's a couple of things wrong with that argument . One of them is , of course , that it pre- supposes that inability to win a state or among Democrats only , means you ca n't win the state when it 's Democrats versus Republican nominee in the fall . I do n't think that follows . I do n't think anybody thinks that follows but it sounds kind of good . Obama can just basically argue that all the red states that he 's winning , which have gone for the Bush-Cheney team the last two times around , will that put them in play for the Democrats . I do n't think that 's necessarily true either . So , it 's all just gamesmanship and sort of silliness here . Obama is going to go where he can get the most delegates and Hillary Clinton appears to be doing the same thing and their emphasis on Pennsylvania , the state that is a demographically kind of designed for her is understandable . But @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ state to win the nomination . You don't. @!MACCALLUM : You know , Brit , let 's look at landscape here , you got six weeks to go before the Pennsylvania primary . So , there 's a lot of time , some people say time is on Hillary 's side . She 's sort of successfully changed a bit of the discussion to having a little bit more scrutiny on Barack Obama . Does that feel like it has traction to you or it has been going by the wayside ? @!HUME : Well , look , Barack Obama had a pretty easy run in the press for a long period of time , and the Clinton campaign complained about it and not without justification to complain about that , and the scrutiny of Barack Obama has gotten a little more intense , as well it should have . In addition , of course , you got John McCain out there with nobody on the Republican side to campaign against in a position to take shots at either or both of them , which I might add as well @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ after all , a rather limited national record to run on . And that of course is why you saw him trying to bolster his credentials there with the bunch of military figures today , as he was talking about foreign policy issues . And of course , casting doubt on Hillary Clinton by saying as he does over and over again that she after all voted for this war while he was opposed to it . @!MACCALLUM : All right , Brit . Thank you very much . Good to see you . We 'll see you back right there at the top of the hour . Thank you . @!HUME : Thanks , Martha . @!HEMMER : In the meantime : A lot of people are wondering : What was he thinking ? A former sex addict will explain why Eliot Spitzer would risk everything , his career and his marriage for paid sex ? That 's coming up . @!MACCALLUM : Good question . Then , this continues , folks . Geraldine Ferraro stepping down from Hillary Clinton 's campaign over remarks she made about Barack Obama @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that story for you plus more sights and sounds tonight from the campaign trail , including John McCain 's idea of an ideal running mate . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!SEN-JOHN-MCCAIN-@ : My criteria ( INAUDIBLE ) someone who shares your principles , your values and your vision and your priorities is who you want . ( INAUDIBLE ) . That 's all . Of course , it 's much less a factor given my ( INAUDIBLE ) . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!MACCALLUM : Coming up : New tonight , John McCain says he 's getting the impression that Mitt Romney wants to be his running mate . We 're going to get reaction from FOX 's Sean Hannity . Plus : What Sean is going to ask McCain when he meets with him tomorrow ? @!HEMMER : Breaking news in the war between one of Hillary Clinton 's supporters and the Obama campaign . Geraldine Ferraro , under fire for saying that Obama has been doing well in the race because he is black , has just stepped down from Hillary Clinton 's finance committee . Obama today is accusing Ferraro in participating in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ The Clinton supporter , Ferraro is saying that Obama ' s campaign has been twisting her remarks but has resigned nonetheless , moments ago . Here 's what she said earlier today when I talked to her on AMERICA 'S NEWSROOM . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!GERALDINE-FERRARO , : I 'm sorry . I said nothing negative . I care about the black vote in this country . I am absolutely thrilled by his campaign ( AUDIO BREAK ) and I really do n't this is right that they should attack me as racist . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HEMMER : All right . That was earlier . Now , tonight , reaction to this breaking news , Maryland 's former lieutenant governor and FOX News contributor Michael Steele . Hello , Michael . Good evening to you . @!MICHAEL-STEELE-@1 : Hey , Bill . What 's up , man ? @!HEMMER : I 'm fine , thank you . First , where are you on this issue ? @!STEELE : Well , you know , I have to admit that there 's some legitimacy to what she says . It does n't go to the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a very valid point . There is not a white person or black person , and certainly , I have talked to a lot , where that has been in the back of their mind or what 's been expressed explicitly . Now , keep in mind , it does n't diminish the value of his candidacy . It does n't take away from what Barack has done . It just speaks to the fact that race , no matter how you dance it , no matter how you dice it , it 's still a part of the life and culture and the politics of this nation , and we 've got to stop pretending that all of a sudden we 're now in nirvana and everybody is getting along to go along . That 's just not the case . @!HEMMER : The point I made to her this morning is , I do n't hear people who are supporters of him saying that I like him because he 's black . I hear people saying because he talks about hopes and dreams and it all sounds really @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it sounds good . @!STEELE : Right . @!HEMMER : Now Obama was asked about that . Roll this tape here and we 'll get your reaction , Michael . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!OBAMA- : The notion that it is a great advantage to me , to be an African-American named Barack Obama and pursue the presidency , I think , is not a view that has been commonly shared by the general public . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HEMMER : He went on to say that my name and my skin color would not be in the asset column when it comes to running for the president . That 's a pretty good line . @!STEELE : Well , it 's a good line but it 's the truth and it 's a reality . Look , Bill , when I ran for the United States Senate , we did a poll , we asked two questions : Would you vote for an African-American for United States Senate ? Seventy percent of Marylanders at the time said yes . The next question , would your neighbor vote for an African-American for the United States @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's still this tension , there 's that divide that exists when it comes to race . And I think that Barack 's campaign helps open up that discussion , but every time you take that step , you have more casualties of that conversation , and we 've got to get past that point where we can actually have an open discussion about this . And not hang someone 's hat on the wall . @!HEMMER : What she insists is that we 're over the top in this country when it comes to the topic of race . Are we over the top -- entirely sensitive , too sensitive ? @!STEELE : Yes . I think that , I mean , to the point where you can not engage on it , you can not discuss it . And it 's one of the questions that , quite frankly , Republicans are going to have to deal with as we go forward if Barack is the nominee . @!HEMMER : Michael Steele , good to have you on . All right , former lieutenant governor in Maryland , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ down in Washington , back here in New York now and over to Martha . @!MACCALLUM : All right , Bill . Thank you very much . Will Dr. Death turns to politics ? Assisted suicide champion Jack Kevorkian just announcing his plans to run for Congress in the state of Michigan , intending to be a candidate with no party affiliation representing Detroit 's suburbs , he says . The " right to die " advocate says he just wants honesty and sincerity in government . Kevorkian was just released from prison last year after serving more than eight years for second degree murder . And he had to know , Eliot Spitzer , that it could cost him his career . So , why could n't New York 's governor control his sexual appetite ? A reformed sex addict weighs in on this , and this question tonight : Did Eliot Spitzer ' s wife really not know what her husband was up to for all those years ? We 're going to talk about that next , coming up on AMERICA 'S ELECTION HEADQUARTERS at FOX NEWS @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 'S ELECTION HEADQUARTERS at FOX News . And here 's what we 're watching right now . Eliot Spitzer resigned today . The New York governor is stepping down after being caught in a sex sting operation . He apologized to his family and the people of New York . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!SPITZER : I have insisted , I believe correctly , that people , regardless of their position or power , take responsibility for their conduct . I can and will ask no less of myself . For this reason , I am resigning . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!MACCALLUM : And there it is , Lt. Gov . David Paterson will take over the position on Monday . And Hillary Clinton speaking to the U.S. Hispanic Chamber of Commerce in Washington , D.C. today . Clinton promising comprehensive immigration reform and better business opportunities for women and minorities in America if she 's elected president . Barack Obama playing down the chances that he will win the primary in Pennsylvania on April 22 . Instead , he is focusing on states that he thinks are more likely to support him and wants @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? @!HEMMER : OK . Sex , lies and a phone tap . After a decade of alleged infidelity , the Democratic governor 's secret is now out . Spitzer 's enemies tonight are saying good riddance . And others are just trying to understand how a smart man could take such a stupid chance . FOX 's Douglas Kennedy just spoke to someone who says he thinks he knows why . Tell us. @!DOUGLAS-KENNEDY-F : Yes , Spitzer did a lot of damage to himself , Bill . He also tragically did damage to his wife and three kids . And to most , his behavior is inexplicable . But there are some who say they understand . @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @(voice-over) : Brian Brevig is a self-described recovering sex addict . He says watching Eliot Spitzer is like watching himself . @(on-camera) : So how do you identify with Eliot Spitzer ? @!BRIAN-BREVIG-RECO : Well , I can identify , because , you know , as a sex addict , it can take you to the absolute depths of hell . For years , Brian said he spent much of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ prostitutes . @!KENNEDY : So why pay for it ? @!BREVIG : Well , I think , you know , when you pay for it , it makes it that much more exciting , I mean , the exchange of money , the exchange of power . I mean money has a lot of power and sex has a lot of power . @!KENNEDY-@1voice-ov : Spitzer is said to have paid over $80,000 over a ten-year period on high-priced hookers in New York , Washington and Florida . One of those classy call girls talked about her experience with the soon-to-be ex-governor to the " New York Post , " describing him as a big tipper . Still , it was Spitzer himself who seems to have gotten himself caught , by trying to hide the prostitute 's payments , dividing a $140,000 tab into smaller amounts to avoid federal reporting rules . @!SPITZER : I 'm deeply did not live up to what was expected of me. @!KENNEDY : He also allegedly asked the bank to take his name off the wire transfer , which the bank quickly reported @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ self-destructive. @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE- : What I 'm saying he is should have known better but he was so obsessed , I guess , with this feeling of invincibility . He must have felt infallible . @!KENNEDY : And Spitzer may also have been self-destructive with the sex itself . FBI sources confirming today the governor asked to pay more for sex without a condom . Brian says that 's typical . @(on-camera) : Why would you want to have unsafe sex with a prostitute ? @!BREVIG : It makes it more real . It makes it more exciting . It 's a big risk . @!KENNEDY-@1voice-ov : He says he sought treatment for his sex addiction and he suggests Spitzer do the same . @(on-camera) : So what kind of treatment is there ? @!BREVIG : Treatment is available at pretty much any rehab-type place that deals with other types of addictions like a Betty Ford or a Hazelden probably has a specific section for sex addiction . @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!KENNEDY : He says there are also 12-step programs that deal with sex addiction . He says in his experience , sex @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ anyone who thinks they have one , Bill , to find someone to talk to . @!HEMMER : Douglas , thank you . I think . Douglas Kennedy in New York . @!MACCALLUM : We 've got some interesting responses from the ladies on this one , folks . So will the Spitzer scandal -But first we 'll get to politics for you - impact the Democratic National Party and how ? Here with me now is FOX 's political analyst Kirsten Powers and syndicated radio talk show host , Monica Crowley . We 'll get to that in a second . Let 's talk about the delegate situation , because she 's going to lose one out of all this . @!MONICA-CROWLEY-SY : Oh , yes , never a dull moment . And for Hillary Clinton , she 's facing a pitched battle over the super delegates with Barack Obama , and to lose even one is pretty devastating for her . So when she made that statement today that she was saddened for Spitzer and his family , I 'm sure that 's true because she 's been @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for herself because now she has to go scramble for more support . And do n't forget that Gov . Spitzer was one of her point men , not only in New York , but in the northeast to round up superdelegates to support her . @!MACCALLUM : Yes . It 's a lot for her , Kirsten , you know , on two levels , as Monica points out . The superdelegates and also the reminder to everybody - I mean it went through my mind when I thought of Hillary today , well , she 's been there , too . @!KIRSTEN-POWERS-FO : Well , I think it 's the loss of a superdelegate . I 'd be surprised if this is going to be decided by one superdelegate . So I think the bigger loss is the fact , as Monica says , is that he is , you know , a very powerful person . He was a huge star in the Democratic Party and he had a lot of influence . And could have influenced a lot of people probably if it comes down to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to get more superdelegates . So I think that 's a problem . On the issue of reminding people of things , we do n't know which way that cuts for Hillary . Because remember , she has never been more popular than when she went through this . @!MACCALLUM : Their clients could be sympathetic to her in a way . And we all watched Silda standing there . And that 's what I want to ask you guys about now . When I heard him make the statement today , at one point , he said - in fact , one of the first things he said was that " I would need to seek help for myself . " And I thought , here we go again . We 've got another sort of a rehab situation - it 's not my fault because I was just , you know , born addicted to that . @!CROWLEY : Overtaken by his impulses . Right . So you know he 's going to rehab and then the second stop will be Barbara Walters . I mean you can @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I think that for Hillary Clinton , it actually is very interesting because it does remind people of her sex scandal baggage with her husband . On the other hand , she ca n't make this argument but her surrogates can . Look , male politicians , they 're thinking with a different set of brains here . And then it almost always ends up with either an intern or a hooker . Therefore , it is time for a woman president . @!MACCALLUM : You know what ? That 's an interesting point , because when I talked to Dr. Keith Ablow about this last night , I said , " How often do we see this with female candidates ? " @!CROWLEY : Never . @!MACCALLUM : It 's almost never . @!POWERS : Yes . I mean I can not think of a time when a female candidate or governor or member of congress was taken down by a sex scandal . @!CROWLEY : It has n't happened . @!POWERS : Yes . @!MACCALLUM : You know , the other thing that came up and I know @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as well , is the question of whether or not Silda knew before , and this obviously just all of us speculating . She is obviously a very smart woman . She could , you know , go through all those legal papers and advise her husband on what he should do . But do you get the feeling that she know about this ? @!POWERS : I would think something has been going on as long as they say it has been going on . It 's certainly possible that she would know . It 's possible that they 've maybe worked through it . If he says he 's a sex addict , maybe they - When you think of other people , Michael Douglas is I think the most famous sex addict . And he and his wife have gone through all sorts of counseling to try to get over it . And then I guess he 's cured now because I have n't heard anything about with Catherine Zeta-Jones . So ( UNINTELLIGIBLE ) . @!MACCALLUM : But you know , in terms of Silda 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you know , you wonder if she had that look on her face today of , you know , " We 've been dealing with this , but now I have to deal with the fact that everyone else now knows . " @!CROWLEY : And look , you never know what is going on internally between two people in a relationship or what kind of deals that they have struck . And it 's entirely possible that she did know , and her big issue was that he got caught , that he was indiscreet , which is I think was Hillary Clinton 's problem with Bill getting caught with Monica Lewinsky was all about . @!MACCALLUM : Yes . That 's an interesting point . All right . Thank you very much , ladies . It is always good to talk to both of you . @!HEMMER : I 'm here tonight to defend an innocent man ( UNINTELLIGIBLE ) . For the record , Hillary Clinton putting new pressure now on Barack Obama to hold these fresh primaries in Florida and Michigan . Why Obama is not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 'll explain that and more sights and sounds from the trail , including a lighter moment from Bill Clinton . Listen and watch here . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!BILL-CLINTON-FORM : I know whenever I go someplace and speak for - people sort of discount what I say . They say , " He 's got to say those nice things or he could n't go home tonight . " @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HEMMER : Hillary Clinton , while stepping up the pressure to hold these fresh primary elections in Florida and Michigan as Barack Obama extends his lead in the delegate race , oh so slightly , after a win last night in Mississippi . Clinton says there are two options - honor the ballots of two million people from January or hold them all anew , period . Florida 's trying to figure this out - well , trying to figure out if , too , they can conduct a re-do . And perhaps , if you do it , do you do it by mail ? Listen , the clock is running . The calendar is ticking off , too , day @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Hillary Clinton , Lisa Caputo is here in the studio tonight . Good evening to you . @!LISA-CAPUTO-FORME : Good evening . @!HEMMER : Also working as an advisor for the Clinton campaign . How do you solve this ? @!CAPUTO : Well , I think this is clearly a difficult thing to solve . I think that the right thing to do , just as just stepping back as a political person myself is to hold some kind of a re-do . The question is what kind of re-do do you hold ? Do you hold caucuses ? Do you hold primaries or have write-ins ? I think there has already been the notion of a write-in and the Obama campaign has objected . They 're afraid of voter fraud . The Clinton campaign would prefer not to have caucuses because the Obama campaign has fared well in caucuses - @!HEMMER : Seemed to do better in that , yes . @!CAPUTO : So it would seem to me that the way to go would be to hold primaries both in Michigan and in Florida . @!HEMMER : So @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ like that . @!CAPUTO : Well , I think sure they would like that , but I think that really , Bill , we 're in a situation where it is so close and Barack Obama is ahead on pledged delegates , but it 's close . It 's a difference of about 100 and some odd delegates . @!HEMMER : And you wonder in the end whether you do a re-vote in Michigan and Florida if it really separates the two that much . About two hours ago , Robert Wexler , a congressman from Florida was on the FOX NEWS Channel . I listened to this guy minute after minute . I could not figure out what his solution was , which told me he does n't have one . The process , the method , the mailing , the money - this is a real fix for the Democratic Party . @!CAPUTO : It 's tough . You know , clearly , I think that the party would rather not be in this situation . But you can not discount two very important states . Michigan clearly @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Florida , we know what the history with Florida has been in past presidential elections . So these are two states where the voices of the voters should be heard . The question is , how do you do that ? @!HEMMER : You 're sure - and the house Democrats from Florida saying they do n't want a re-do anyway by the greater majority of them . @!CAPUTO : No , but then you have the governor of Florida saying - @!HEMMER : Who 's a Republican , saying , let 's play ball . @!CAPUTO : I think , you know , this will cost money . And the question on the table is whether both campaigns can raise the money to independently finance a quote , unquote , " re-do. " @!HEMMER : Is it five or six million dollars ? What is that ? @!CAPUTO : I think it 's like closer to $10 million if I had to bet . @!HEMMER : In Florida alone . Lisa , nice to see you tonight . @!CAPUTO : Nice to see you , too . @!HEMMER : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Bill , this question , what will John McCain do to win over the conservatives who are not with him yet ? FOX 's own Sean Hannity will ask the presidential hopeful that in an exclusive interview . Sean joins us live moments from now in a preview of that when AMERICA 'S ELECTION HEADQUARTERS , next on FOX NEWS Channel . @!MACCALLUM : Well , it is 24 hours now and none of us can wait . FOX 's Sean Hannity is about to interview the man that he and other conservative radio hosts have been very skeptical about for months on the air , Republican presidential nominee John McCain . Tomorrow night at 9:00 p.m . Eastern , the two of them will sit down , one-on-one , and talk about whether McCain will reach out to conservatives in his party who have some major concerns still about his politics . Sean is with me now live on the phone for a preview of what he is going to ask him . Good evening Sean . Good to have you here . @!SEAN-HANNITY-CONS : Hey , Martha . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are you ? @!MACCALLUM : I 'm great , thanks . You know , you have said that the two of you , you and John McCain , that you get along , that you think , you know , he is a good guy . But , listen , he was never your pick in this nomination , so now you 're going to sit down with him . You tend not to change your mind about how you feel about things and neither does he . So where does that leave us tomorrow night ? @!HANNITY : Well , you know , it is - First of all , I have always admired Sen. McCain . It 's actually on the eve of the 31st anniversary when he was released from Vietnam , so we 'll talk about that . Look , you can not help but admire his record , his background , his life , his service to his country . He has been right on issues like the surge . If we go back to his CPAC speech , Martha , he said he knew @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the party and that he said he would . He said that he knew that he could n't win without conservatives . We 'll talk about exactly what that means . You know , it 's interesting . Over the years , we 've had this relationship where , you know , he is known as a maverick and as an independent and somebody that has his own mind . But over the years , we have also debated the issues of McCain-Feingold and McCain-Kennedy , so there is no surprise that he and I have some disagreements . But , you know , on measure , he has been right on the war . He made a pledge recently not to raise taxes , to eliminate earmarks . We 'll talk about judges and some other issues . And I think it will be a friendly discussion . I can guarantee you that , but I think one that 's really important to conservatives . @!MACCALLUM : So does that mean - it sounds to me like you 're finding some common ground . Are you happy in that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to enthusiastically go out and back and try to build support for him ? @!HANNITY : I think Sen. McCain - I think this is his opportunity more than mine . And in as much as I think there are conservatives out there , there is no hope for Barack Obama or Sen. Clinton to win over the conservative vote . That 's not going to happen . I think for Sen. McCain , I think he was right when he spoke at CPAC , he highlighted his conservative credentials , those areas where we do agree . And I think he has an opportunity to maybe clarify or talk about issues like judges and immigration . And if he 's going to focus on McCain- Kennedy , or is he just going to focus on securing the borders ? What kind of judges he would appoint to the Supreme Court ? Does he really mean it when he says no new taxes . You know , is that a George Herbert Walker Bush no-new-tax fudge ? So I think those will be areas of significance . @!MACCALLUM : You @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ made your differences . I talked to Newt Gingrich the other night . He basically said , " Look , if he 's tough on terror , if he picks conservative judges and sticks by the tax plan , I 'm onboard . " Are there areas that you - What is your toughest point of contention with him and what do you expect you 're going to hear from him tomorrow night ? @!HANNITY : I think certainly one of them is immigration . Another one is McCain-Feingold . I would like to examine other issues , for example , like Anwar and drilling and energy independence and eliminating the death tax - issues that have come up throughout his career . For example , we 'll examine the issue of - he at one time talked about some class warfare stuff . And when he voted against the Bush tax cuts , he had said , " Well , it would benefit the wealthy too much . " @!MCCALLUM : Right . @!HANNITY : I 'll ask him about all those things . But look , it 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ vote for . I think there 's an opportunity here for Sen. McCain , who does pride himself in reaching across the aisle to work with people like Russ Feingold and Ted Kennedy . And one of things I will ask him is what does that mean ? What does it mean to reach across the aisle ? What does it mean in terms of reaching toward your base ? How will you try to reunite them ? So , I 'm very interested in some of the answers . @!MACCALLUM : All right , Sean . And I know you 're going to ask him about Mitt Romney , too , so that 's going to be the tee that we 're going to put out there . We 're going to talk about that as well with the VP issue . Sean 's exclusive interview with John McCain airs tomorrow night on " @!HANNITY & COLMES " at 9:00 Eastern , right here on the FOX NEWS Channel . Sean , thank you . Do n't miss a moment . @!HEMMER : All right . In meantime , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ when talking about Clinton and Obama . Are we entering the political nice zone ? And is that what Americans want after all ? Political reaction coming up right after this . @!HEMMER : All right . We have seen the jabs go back and forth for months now . But it seems that John McCain is taking the high ground here , asking supporters to drop the personal attacks against his Democratic rivals , His campaign manager telling everyone backing McCain to stay positive a and do n't take the low road . Is America used to this ? Former Ohio congressman , FOX 's contributor , John Kasich is with us from Columbus . Hello , John . @!FMR-REP-JOHN-KASIC : Hey , Bill . @!HEMMER : What do you make of this ? Are we ready to be nice ? @!KASICH : No , no . What I make of it is they 're doing the work of the Republicans . They 're pounding one another in the McCain camp and the strategists are sitting back looking to see where they 're drawing blood on each other . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ fall campaign . So it would be really silly for McCain to start attacking them , because he does n't even know who the nominee is . But let me tell you , when we get in the fall , the campaign does n't have to be personal - the attacks do n't have to be personal , but they are going to be striking , Bill , because we 're running for president of the United States . And you need to show why you 're better than the other person , your positive program and where they fall short , where their philosophy is different . So I do n't think it will get real personal . It will , at times , but it will be intense . And now , the Republicans are enjoying this . @!HEMMER : Well , is it your suggestion then that McCain will change his attitude , because anytime someone goes after and offends somebody , McCain always pulls them back . That 's been the pattern , John . @!KASICH : Wait a minute . Look , maybe on some @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . But let me tell you , if Obama is the nominee , he 's going to go after him on the fact that the guy has no experience . If Hillary is the nominee , I mean he 's going to talk about her failed healthcare plan and how she screwed things up . I mean that 's the way it 's going to go . It wo n't have to be personal . But he 'll wait until the fall to do that . And then he 's watching to see what is really working . Hillary attacking Obama on experience - it 's really working , and then they 're going to pick that kind of thing up . We will see how Obama comes back and hits Hillary . That 's where we are . @!HEMMER : I 've got about 15 seconds , John . Do you think Americans like to see these politicians mix it up ? @!KASICH : Yes , you know , at the end of the day , comparison ads are important . They move the numbers , and that 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ see the positive , but they 're comparing products . And in anything , the public responds , and that 's how campaigns respond to what the public wants . @!HEMMER : That 's like , show us what you 've got . John Kasich - good to you have on , John . Take care of Ohio . @!KASICH : Thank you both . @!MACCALLUM : All right . Thanks for being with us and watching this special edition of AMERICA 'S ELECTION HEADQUARTERS . I 'm Martha MacCallum. @!HEMMER : And I 'm Bill Hemmer . Have a great evening . See you tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m. , back here at 5:00 in Eastern Time . In the meantime , here is Brit Hume , live , " SPECIAL REPORT " in Washington . Here 's Brit . '

@@4027841 MICHEL @!MARTIN , host : I 'm Michel Martin , and this is Tell Me More from NPR News . Later in the program , working with debt collectors - how to stop the craziness - and our monthly visit with our ethics panel . But first , they say it takes a village to raise a child , but maybe you just need a few Mocha Moms . We visit with members of this mothers support group each week for their common sense and savvy parenting advice . Today , we want to talk about preparing your children to face tough , economic times . Job loss , divorce , death of a spouse , a medical crisis , all these can disrupt a family 's finances . And with home foreclosures , and other bad economic news in the headlines , we thought it was a good time to talk about how to survive a financial crisis without traumatizing the kids . Here to talk about this , are the Mocha Moms , Jolene Ivey , Dannette Tucker , and Donna Maria Coles Johnson . Welcome , ladies , moms. @!Ms-JOLENE-IVEY-@1M : Hey , Michel . @!Ms-DANNETTE-TUCKER @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!MARTIN : Now , Donna Maria , you visited us a while back to talk about how to make the most of coupons , and there 's a reason you 're such an expert . So , can you just refresh our memories about that ? @!Ms-COLES-JOHNSON : Sure , Michel . Three years ago my husband lost a job to a layoff . The result was a 60 percent drop in our income in one day , and so , I quickly had to reign our finances in , which I 'd never really done before . We had a two year old and one year old at the time . So , it was quite a devastating loss , but through it we have learned to be better money managers . So , the silver lining is that we have a lot more money savvy to show for our experience . @!MARTIN : That 's great , Dannette , what about you ? Have you ever had a setback that you had to explain to the kids ? @!Ms-TUCKER : Oh yeah , big setback . My ex-husband @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ We were in Maryland , and I lost my job because I had to have another surgery and had to go on the system , had to go on welfare . I had to move my kids out of Maryland into D.C. because D.C. had more programs than Maryland had to help single moms . You know , I went from two salaries to nothing , and went on a system , went down there and signed up for what is called TAFNF now , it 's not called welfare . Temporary Assistance for Needy Families . I used it for two years to get back on my feet , take advantage of all the programs that it had , took some classes . They helped with job searching , the kids were able to do a lot of free things , because of it , youth programs , sporting programs . And you know , I mean , I did n't feel bad about it , but I had to use the system to get back on my feet and I did . @!MARTIN : OK , I want @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? Have you ever had to re-trench ? @!Ms-IVEY : Well , we knew we were going to have to re-trench and that 's what - my husband had been a partner at a law firm and he was making , you know , a lot of money for most people and certainly for us . And when he was running for public office , and it looked like he was going to win , I said , oh my god , if , this man wins this thing , our salary gets cut in half . And it was a serious hit . So , since we kind of planned for it , it was n't as bad , we used to have two people cleaning our house , and over the course of the months leading up to him winning we have - well , now we have seven people cleaning our house . @(Soundbite-of-laugh) @!Ms-IVEY : My five kids , me and my husband . You know that kind of thing , no cable , I mean - we had to cut to the bone because that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you think it made it easier because it was your choice , or was there a part of you that was mad ? @!Ms-IVEY : No , it was easier , because it was our choice , Definitely , it was n't like devastating or anything like that , it was certainly nothing like Dannette 's gone through . What it was though , is harder for the kids , I guess . They do n't really care whether it 's your choice or not , they just know they want cable . @(Soundbite-of-laugh) @!Ms-IVEY : You know what I 'm saying ? @!MARTIN : Yeah , how did you explain it the kids ? I want to go around and ask each of you that question . Jolene , we 're going to start with you because we were talking to you . You and Glen made a decision that he was going to make a change , that he was going to do something he believed in that was important to do , but it had a big impact on them . How did you explain it ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the time that what 's important is that you love your job , and you do something that you want to do , one that you feel makes a difference . And sometimes that means you do n't make as much money as you possibly could , and we tried to make it so that things are n't the most important thing in our lives . @!MARTIN : Dannette , what about you ? It seems to me that you had a lot of changes , the kids obviously knew some of this was going on , but how did you talk to them about it ? How did you keep them from being devastated ? @!Ms-TUCKER : I hate to coin a phrase , but I kept it real . I had to . It was not the time to make up anything , I mean , they 're living in it I did n't want them to hear from anybody else . I sat them down , said this is what 's happening , a , b , c , d , and this is what we 're @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ opportunity to teach them a life lesson . Life will do that sometimes . It may throw your curve ball out of nowhere and you 've got to be able to just , revamp yourself . And the only thing - the biggest thing we did was , not stay bitter , would not let them get bitter . So , I felt telling them the truth about what was going on kept them from being bitter . @!MARTIN : Were they ever angry at you ? Because sometimes when there 's a parent missing the parent whose still there is the one that comes in for the drama , because you 're the safe one , right . @!Ms-TUCKER : Oh yeah , very mad at me . Why wo n't you stick in there with daddy , they did n't understand that daddy is not a good influence here right now . So , I had to do what was best for them , and at the time it was my best to stay in there . @!MARTIN : How did you master your own emotions , because @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to , of being vulnerable , of being frightened , of ... @!Ms-TUCKER : Faith , and my Verizon friends and family network . @(Soundbite-of-laugh) @!Ms-TUCKER : I used my Verizon Family and Friends network beyond telephone calls . You know what I mean , I mean they would come over and go all right girl , come on let 's do this , and I got the spaghetti tonight , and I 'll go watch a movie with the kids . It was that , you know , the village reached out and came to me , and when I saw them there with me , and we 're all doing the same thing , it just lifts you to another place , and you just feel like you can go on , and that 's what we did . @!MARTIN : Donna Maria , what about you ? Your kids were so little at the time , but I think having little kids makes you feel very vulnerable . You know what I mean ? So how did you think about what to talk about with them , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ them . What did you do ? @!Ms-COLES-JOHNSON : At the time they were too young . I mean they were - one was an infant practically , and the other one was just beginning to walk . So , I think what we went through was right after the lay-off , we had to regroup and ultimately two and a half , three years later , we sold our house and moved 600 miles away . That was when we had some explaining to do . @(Soundbite-of-laugh) @!Ms-COLES-JOHNSON : Because , by then they were old enough to have a couple of friends , they 'd been to some birthday parties , and they wanted an explanation as to why they were leaving their grandma and their grandpa and all their friends and people they had gotten to know . So , we did have to sit down and talk with them and as , my fellow Mocha Mom said , keep it real , you know , this is what mommy and daddy have to do so that we can take care of ourselves and plan for our @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : When you have to re-trench abruptly as you did , you did n't have time to plan , I assume , you did n't see it coming . What 's the first , second , and third thing you did ? @!Ms-COLES-JOHNSON : Well , we prayed a lot . Secondly , we just cut off a lot of things that we wanted , but did n't need . We turned off the cable . We stopped using the utilities as much as we did . We used one vehicle . We bought gas at a cheaper place . And I really spent a lot of time encouraging my husband at that time in addition to regrouping our finances . @!MARTIN : If , you 're just joining us , you 're listening to Tell Me More from NPR News . I 'm speaking with the Mocha Moms , Jolene Ivey , Dannette Tucker , Donna Maria Coles Johnson about teaching your kids to deal with tough economic times . Donna Maria , you 're also really big on teaching your kids about money and not just the difference @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ pay their pre-school bill in cash . @!Ms-COLES-JOHNSON : Yeah . @!MARTIN : Why you emphasize that so much ? @!Ms-COLES-JOHNSON : Because I want them to see the money leaving our house and going into something that is important . My daughter once actually - just last year , she told my son - my six-year-old daughter told my son , you really have to do your best in school , because mommy pays a lot of money for this . And that 's because , every now and then I call the school in advance to make sure it 's OK to bring cash , well , I would bring cash and tell them , we 're going to go into the office today , and we 're going to pay for your school . So , they can understand the connection between getting something of value and the fact that it costs money instead of swiping the credit card and writing a check . So , I want them to know , it 's money coming out of the , you know , pizza budget or the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ case . @!MARTIN : Dannette , how do you talk to your kids about money ? Because , on the one hand you want them to respect the hard work , on the other hand you do n't want them to be obsessed with money , because , you know , you can see where it could go the other way . If kids see their parents struggling so hard they make it - it becomes so important that they ca n't learn the lesson - Jolene was talking about that money is n't everything , it becomes everything . How 'd you balance that ? @!Ms-TUCKER : I put them to work . @(Soundbite-of-laugh) @!Ms-TUCKER : The best way for them to know what I 'm going through , you go through it . @(Soundbite-of-laugh) @!Ms-TUCKER : Well , I mean , you 're going to babysit , you 're going to clean this , you 're going to go over to so and so 's house and do this , and my son 's working his second summer job at the summer youth program . I do n't @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ about if something like this happens . You got to work your way back from it , so come on and work . @!MARTIN : Jolene , what about you ? @!Ms-IVEY : I actually worry about my kids worrying about money . I worry about my oldest kid who 's in college now , and he worries about how much this is costing us and worries about does it make sense for him when he finishes college to go onto law school . And I tell him , look , whatever you 'd have to take out in loans in the long run it 's going to be worth it to get whatever education you need , and it 's not just for how much money you can make , but the choices , the freedom that you have because you have enough education to do whatever you want to do . @!MARTIN : I wanted to ask each of you , because as we all know kids can be very mean , particularly as they get to a certain age , in what you wear , what you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . I remember when I was - I do n't even , gosh I must have been in junior high school . I remember going to the bus stop every day , and having this one girl - I ca n't remember her name I must have blocked it out , basically itemized what everybody at the bus stop had on , particularly by a label . And if there was not a label , then she 'd be going , huh . Like , for some reason I remember Fred Braun shoes , well , she got some Fred Braun shoes , and some Guess jeans , and just , you know , you just want to die , you know . You can say , oh , you should be tougher than that , bigger than that , but you know at that age , right ? So , how do you ? Dannette , I want to ask you especially when you went into the - on the system as you said , and started getting relief , TAFNF ? Was that hard ? @!Ms-TUCKER : I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ from family back then , is we never really focused on gas jeans and you know buying a lot of designer , just spend our money on that . So , I was thankful to my parents for instilling that in me , because that helped us do the kids that way period . You know , so we can stay trendy without paying 200 dollars for some Michael Jordans , Jordan do n't need no money , you know . So , my son now you know , I like that , the kids now coming in with their own styles , they 're going into the styles like Stephan Mulberry whose shoes are very inexpensive , but OK , you know they are getting into that . So , I just kind of you know , promote that with them . Promote the alternative you know , you know it 's cooler now to do this than to pay all this money , have these things and then act like a fool and not appreciate them you know ? @!MARTIN : Jolene what about you ? @!Ms-IVEY : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ crazy if they spend 200 dollars on a pair of tennis shoes . So , we do n't really have that kind of thing to worry about . My poor kids , I really kind of feel sorry for them , because for years , I mean I so much do n't care about clothes that the neighbors would just drop off bags of clothes , and we would just go through the bags and whatever you wanted we 'd use and whatever you do n't want , I 'd give it to Goodwill . And , I did n't think about it for a long time , that that 's how we clothed you know , all the kids and even me sometimes . Because , I do n't care , but when they figured out that their friends clothes were what they were wearing , then they started to become annoyed , and they said , no more . We will not wear any more clothes like this . So , you know they do n't even care if I go to Goodwill and buy the item , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ out and it not be something that their friend around the corner dropped off . @!MARTIN : Which is funny because now that 's a cool thing among adults , is to have like a swap meet on the weekends . This is what - adults are doing that . @!Ms-TUCKER : That 's what I mean making it cool . @!MARTIN : Yeah , in fact Danne you got a sweater that I 'm looking at that I 'm kind of wanting to . @(Soundbite-of-laugh) @!Ms-TUCKER : It ai n't mine , it ai n't mine I got it in the swap bag . @!MARTIN : Donna Maria what about you , you 've - give us some of your tips for teaching kids about money and helping them to kind of work through these issues without being scarred by it . @!Ms-COLES-JOHNSON : Well , one of things I do is I coupon a lot . I have a special little section in my coupon notebook for snacks and treats for my children , and when we go to the grocery store , if they can find a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ When we get up to the cash register I try to find one that 's empty , and I give them the money . They 're only four and six , so they - you know they 're not old enough to understand a lot of the things about designer clothing and things of that nature . But I give them the money , and I let them , you know , actually feel the money go onto their fingers , and you know pay for it and see what the receipt says . And see how much money they saved using that coupon at that box of whatever it is that they got , cost a $1.50 less because they used a coupon . And that 's really an effective tool to show them , because you can see it on the receipt , you can trace it all the way through from the coupon to the receipt . @!MARTIN : And you 're big on letting the kids see you pay bills . You see a lot of times kids will see their parents go to the ATM @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ their parents paying bills , because that 's something that the parents want to do when it 's quiet . So what do - how deal with that - especially because a lot of people pay bills online . You just have them sit with you and say watch me ? @!Ms-COLES-JOHNSON : Yes , I let them sit with me and watch , and you know with automatic deposits and stuff from jobs and things like that , it is tough . But it has been worth it to take them to the bank and show them the money , even when they get a gift in cash or if we have some money that 's come in from wherever we get it from . Just to make the point to show them , we 're not just driving through the ATM machine pulling money out . We 've got to go into the bank and put money in there first before you can get some out . So , the work , as the Mocha sisters say , comes before the reward . @!MARTIN : OK Danne ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : Use your Verizon friends and family network for other than phone calls , really . I mean you just take that idea around with it , we share cooking , we share homework help . You do n't need a tutor I can do that , you know . The kids are doing it now , so and so got an iPod we going to swap this day . We use our network for a lot more than just sharing minutes . @!MARTIN : Well , do you have - but I have to ask though , have your kids ever been teased and how do you ... @!Ms-TUCKER : Yeah , they have been . @!MARTIN : Deal with that ? @!Ms-TUCKER : But that 's when you go - when they come home I 'm the motivator in the house , so we do old fashioned sticks and stones may break my bones , but words do n't hurt me . You know , and like that 's just words you all , you ca n't let it stop you . We going to keep going the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , make your character , make it look good , and they do they get teased , they get frustrated , especially Davon ( ph ) , because he 's a ... @!MARTIN : Because he 's a teenager . @!Ms-TUCKER : Teenager , he wants to be cool , but it has made him work harder . @!MARTIN : Jolene , a final thought from you ? @!Ms-IVEY : Well , if I can put on my legislator 's hat just for a second , there 's a couple of bills that we passed in Maryland this year , that might have some impact on the rest of the country , depending on how it 's taken up . One , is credit card companies , they ca n't come on campus anymore and just ply their wares without anything else . They have to also provide education and materials about what happens to credit card debt . So that kids do n't just get these credit cards , run them up like crazy while they 're in college , probably making little to no money , and then @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ huge credit card debts . So , that 's one thing and another is in Maryland we have a task force now to study how to improve financial literacy in the state . And they 're going to start with high school kids on up , and look at how much do kids know , how much do people know , and where do we need to improve ? So after we have the information we 'll be able to take better action because we did find out in like , in 2006 there were 65 percent of high school seniors with failing scores , with knowing how money works , and that 's just like ridiculous , that 's an increase over 44 percent of just a couple of years ago . So , things are really getting bad with young people understanding money , and Donna Maria , you need to come back up here and help us out . @!Ms-COLES-JOHNSON : I 'd love to , I 'd love to . @!MARTIN : There 's one other thing that Donna Maria - we do n't have time @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that you also emphasize the importance of giving . That when you talk to kids about money , you talk about saving , spending and investing , but you do also make a point of talking about donating . So , I think that 's - and as I mentioned we will have all of your tips on our website . So , our regular Mocha Moms , Jolene Ivey , Danne Tucker they joined us here in our Washington D.C. studios . We 're also joined by Donna Maria Coles Johnson , a Mocha Mom expatriate I guess in Charlotte , North Carolina . She joined us from WFAE in Charlotte . Thank you all so much for joining us. @!MOCHA-MOMS : Thanks Michel . '

@@4028241 LIFELINE @!SCOTT-PELLEY-co-h : One of the decisive issues in the presidential campaign is likely to be health care . Forty-seven million Americans have no health insurance and that 's just the start . Millions more are underinsured , unable to pay their deductibles or get access to dental care . Recently , we heard about an American relief organization that airdrops doctors and medicine into the jungles of the Amazon . It 's called Remote Area Medical , or RAM for short . Remote Area Medical sets up emergency clinics where the needs are greatest . But these days , that 's not the Amazon . As we first reported in March , this charity , founded to help people who ca n't reach medical care , finds itself throwing America a lifeline . @(Footage-of-people-) @!PELLEY : ( Voiceover ) In a matter of hours , Remote Area Medical set up its massive clinic in an exhibit hall for a weekend in Knoxville , Tennessee . Tools for dentists were laid out by the yard . Optometrists prepared to make hundreds of pairs of glasses . General medical doctors set up for whatever might come though the door . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ The care is free . But no one could say how many patients might show up . The first clue came a little before midnight when Stan Brock , the founder of Remote Area Medical , opened the gate outside the exhibit hall . The clinic would n't open for seven hours , but people in pain did n't want to chance being left out . State Guardsmen came in for crowd control . They handed out what would become precious slips of paper . Unidentified Soldier : You 're six . @!Mr-MARTY-TANKERSLE : OK. @!PELLEY : ( Voiceover ) Numbered tickets to board what amounted to a medical lifeboat . @!Mr-TANKERSLEY : We brought some snacks and blankets and we 'll ... Soldier : Well , I hope you stay warm . It 's kind of chilly tonight . qwq @ ( Footage-of-van ; -pa @!PELLEY : ( Voiceover ) It was 27 degrees . The young and the old would spend the night in their cars , running the engine for heat , but not too much , not at $3 a gallon . At 5 AM , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ long have you been out here tonight ? Unidentified Woman 1 : We got up at 3:00 this morning and we got here about 4 . We 've been out here a little while . It 's cold . @!PELLEY : Why 'd you come so early ? Woman 1 : Because we wanted to be seen . @(Footage-of-Marty-T) @!PELLEY : ( Voiceover ) Marty Tankersley came with his wife and his daughter , asleep behind the front seats . You drove 200 miles to get here ? @!Mr-TANKERSLEY : Yes , sir . @!PELLEY : And slept in this parking lot for seven or more hours ? @!Mr-TANKERSLEY : Yes , sir . @!PELLEY : Just to have this done . @!Mr-TANKERSLEY : Yes , sir . I 've been in some very excruciating pain . @(Footage-of-Tankers) @!PELLEY : ( Voiceover ) He had an infected tooth that had been killing him for weeks . Most of the people who filled the lot heard about the clinic on the news or by word of mouth , and they came by the hundreds . @!Mr-STAN-BROCK : We 're very happy @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a lot of really fine volunteer doctors , dentists , eye specialists ... @(Footage-of-patient) @!PELLEY : ( Voiceover ) Stan Brock calls RAM clinics medical expeditions . He takes all comers , but just for the weekend . When you set up the first expedition in the United States , were you surprised at the number of people who came ? @!Mr-BROCK : Yes . Yes , I was , and the numbers are getting higher . And I do n't know if it 's because we 're getting better known or that the health care in this country is getting worse . Who 's got number one ? Come on down . Number one . Number two ... @(Footage-of-Stan-Br) @!PELLEY : ( Voiceover ) On Saturday at 6 AM , they entered by the numbers . @!Mr-BROCK : Number three . @(Footage-of-patient) @!PELLEY : ( Voiceover ) Inside , 276 volunteers from 11 states were waiting . Unidentified Man 1 : Are you here for medical , dental or vision ? Unidentified Woman 2 : When was the last time you had a breast exam by a nurse or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ years ago , 25 years ago . @(Footage-of-doctors) @!PELLEY : ( Voiceover ) For those who were diagnosed with cancer today or diabetes or heart disease , RAM will try to find a volunteer doctor who will follow up . Ross Isaacs is one of the doctors . Who are these patients ? @!Ms-ROSS-ISAACS : It 's the working poor , middle of their lives , most with families , most not substance abusers , and employed without adequate insurance . @(Footage-of-Isaacs-) @!PELLEY : ( Voiceover ) Dr. Isaacs saw Marty Tankersley , the man we met in the parking lot who 'd driven 200 miles . It turned out that Tankersley , a few years back , had two heart attacks and heart surgery , but almost no follow-up since . @!Dr-ISAACS : So you have n't seen somebody in a while with regards to your ticker and stuff . qwq @ ( Footage-of-house ; - @!PELLEY : ( Voiceover ) The Tankersleys live in Dalton , Georgia . They fall in the category of the underinsured . Marty 's a truck driver . He has major medical insurance @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ really unaffordable . And the dental insurance costs too much . No one really knows just how many Americans are underinsured like the Tankersleys. @!Mr-ISAACS : He 's the lucky one that could drive the 200 miles . He 's the lucky one that got to see people today and get hooked in . There are tens of hundreds of thousands of people like him . @(Footage-of-Tankers) @!PELLEY : ( Voiceover ) Marty , his wife and daughter were seen for check-ups , glasses , mammograms , and the yanking of that agonizing tooth . @!Mr-TANKERSLEY : This has truly been a Godsend to us , to me and my family , and to all the hundreds of people that 's here . I see the faces , the relief in the faces . This has been a wonderful thing . @(Footage-of-clinic) @!PELLEY : ( Voiceover ) This was RAM 's 524th expedition . @!Mr-BROCK : ( Unintelligible ) ... five , eight , five , one , four , coming in parallel . qwq @ ( Footage-of-plane ; - @!PELLEY : ( Voiceover ) RAM took off in 1992 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 72 , Stan Brock still flies the antique fleet . That C-47 flew on D-Day . Brock is British by birth , an adventurer at heart . He was a cowboy in the Amazon , and then incredibly , he was discovered by TV 's " Wild Kingdom . " Brock became a star , sort of a naturalist daredevil. qwq @ ( Excerpt-from- " Wild qwq @ ( Footage-of-Brock ; - @!PELLEY : ( Voiceover ) Today , Brock is devoted to RAM , completely devoted . He has no family , takes no salary , has no home . Brock lives in an abandoned school that the city of Knoxville leases to RAM for a dollar . Until recently , he took showers in the courtyard with a hose . @!PELLEY : When we see what we 've seen over the last weekend , how do you pay for all of that ? @!Mr-BROCK : In the first place , we really know how to stretch the dollar . We operate entirely on the generosity of the American people . I 'd like to say that we had @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . So , it 's those little checks from those people that send in the $5 and the $10. @(Footage-of-RAM-cli) @!PELLEY : ( Voiceover ) RAM operates on a shoestring , about $250,000 a year , and yet , last year , it treated 17,000 patients . On this Saturday , there was no sign of a let-up . What have you accomplished today ? @!Mr-BROCK : Well , we basically had 600 or so people that arrived here overnight , and we were able to do just about everybody . I think we may have turned away about 15 people who are going to come back tomorrow morning , anyway . qwq @ ( Footage-of-woman ; - @!PELLEY : ( Voiceover ) The next day , Sunday , there were hundreds more . Tickets started again with the number one . But now the doctors were racing time . In hours , they 'd be headed home . @!Mr-BROCK : Who 's got 361 ? Three sixty-two ? Three sixty-two ? Three sixty-three ? @!Ms-TERESA-GARDNER : We 're really glad that you came in. @(Footage-of-Teresa-) @!PELLEY : ( Voiceover @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . McWilliams had surgery for cervical cancer in 2005 , but without the recommended follow-up . How long has it been ? @!Ms-REBECCA-McWILLI : It 's been two -- about two years since I 've had my last pap smear , and I was supposed to have every six months , and I 've really only had it once since that surgery . @!PELLEY : You know , I think many doctors would say you 've taken a terrible risk waiting this long ? @!Ms-McWILLIAMS : Yeah , I really have . But it 's just -- like I said , it 's very hard to afford it . I have three kids , and my husband lost his job this past summer . @(Footage-of-Gardner) @!PELLEY : ( Voiceover ) McWilliams pap smear came back clear , but in her exam , Gardner found reason to worry . @!Ms-GARDNER : I think just from , you know , the clinical inspection of the cervix , that , you know , possibly , there is a possibility of that cancer , you know , still being there . @!PELLEY : She @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , the mother of three . @!PELLEY : You 've created this medical organization that was designed to go into third world countries , to go into remote places , and now you 're doing 60 percent of your work in urban and rural America . What are we supposed to make of that ? @!Mr-BROCK : That for 50 million or so people in this country , the one thing that is on their mind is , What if I have a catastrophic event ? A car crash , a heart attack ? ' @!PELLEY : Because they do n't have health insurance . @!Mr-BROCK : Because I either have no health insurance or I 'm underinsured . And so this is a very , very weighty thing to be thinking about , knowing that your family is in great jeopardy . @(Footage-of-patient) @!Mr-BROCK : ( Voiceover ) Three seventy-six . Three seventy-seven . Three seventy-eight . Unidentified Woman 4 : Three seventy-eight . @!Mr-BROCK : Three seventy-nine . Unidentified Woman 5 : Three seventy-eight . @!Mr-BROCK : Three eighty , 381. @(Footage-of-patient) @!PELLEY : ( Voiceover ) Late @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ last to be called . We found her sitting by a stairwell . And you do n't have that . @!Ms-JOANNE-FORD : Why , no , not on a Social Security disability income . @(Footage-of-Ford-wi) @!PELLEY : ( Voiceover ) She 's retired , living on disability with no insurance , and her glasses do n't work anymore . She got in only to find out that the vision care line had closed . How is your vision ? @!Ms-JOANNE-FORD : I bet in my left eye , it 's probably , I could n't see your face . The Lord 'll take care of me , the Lord will provide . The Lord will provide . @!PELLEY : But not today . @!Ms-FORD : But not today . So I got to look for another option , but I 'll find one . @!PELLEY : What are you going to do ? @!Ms-FORD : I do n't know . I have a lot of good friends and I have a lot of church support . I was very active in my church , and I have a lot of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I 've worked all my life . I hate to ask . That 's why things like this are so wonderful . @!PELLEY : There is no shame in seeking health care . @!Ms-FORD : No , you 're right . You know , it really -- I am sad that we are the wealthiest nation in the world , and we do n't take care of our own , so -- but it will be OK. qwq @ ( Footage-of-Ford ; -F @!PELLEY : ( Voiceover ) And it did turn out OK after all . Unidentified Man 2 : Try again . @!Ms-FORD : Five . @(Footage-of-Ford-be) @!PELLEY : ( Voiceover ) Someone at RAM noticed Joanne 's situation . They put her in the vision care line and examined her for a new pair of glasses . @!Mr-BROCK : If I may have your attention , please . I mean , I 'm afraid that we 've got some rather disappointing news . @(Footage-of-man-wai) @!PELLEY : ( Voiceover ) But at the gate , many were waiting when the weekend ended . @!Mr-BROCK : Four forty-nine and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to Knoxville , RAM saw 920 patients , made 500 pairs of glasses , did 94 mammograms , extracted 1,066 teeth , and did 567 fillings . But when Stan Brock called the last number , 400 people were turned away . What 's going through your mind when you 're reading off the last two or three numbers , and you see so many more people at the gate than are going to be able to come in ? @!Mr-BROCK : Yeah , well , you know , that the -- that 's the lousy part of this -- of this job . I mean , it 's nice to , you know , to be able to know that you 've -- that you 've helped a bunch of people . But the reality is that we ca n't do everybody . At the moment , we just see the thousands and thousands of people that we can , and the rest of them , unfortunately , have got to do the best they can without us. @!PELLEY : Since we first broadcast this story in March , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in donations . Next weekend , RAM will hold its biggest expedition of the year in Wise County , Virginia . @(Announcements) '

@@4030041 @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) Thanks , Robin . When we think of Christmas , Santa Claus is usually the first guy that comes to mind . But there 's another holiday icon who comes around every winter , the snowman. @GRAPHICS @GRAPHICS @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) Now , he is much more than a corncob pipe and a button nose and two eyes made out of coal . A new book reveals the history that may surprise you . @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Voiceover) Around this time every year , he makes an appearance , not Santa , the other guy , because this is also the season of the snowman. @!CARTOON-CHARACTER-# How about , Frosty ? @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Voiceover) Frosty the Snowman is perhaps our most famous man of ice . But some say he is not the oldest . @!BOB-ECKSTEIN-@1AUT# No doubt , snowmanmaking is an activity that we shared with our prehistoric ancestors . @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Voiceover) Humorist Bob Eckstein is author of " The History of the Snowman , " his research revealing these frozen figures throughout time , including the first known illustration of the round guy , drawn for some reason in a 14th century bible manuscript . @!BOB-ECKSTEIN-@1AUT# That 's the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ But it 's the movies , Eckstein says , where the snowman really gained fame . From his personal collection , this 1940 's flick , one of the icy idol 's first starring roles . @!CLIP-FROM- " JACK-FR# @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Voiceover) And who ever thought a snowman could have a dark side ? Well , this movie features Jack Frost in a frightening rampage . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# Just a scar . @!ACTOR-@1MALE@2-# Oh , my god . @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Voiceover) But later , Eckstein says , the snowman @(inaudible) his image with classics for the entire family . @!CLIP-FROM- " A-CHIPM# CARTOON CHARACTER @(MALE) It 's a Christmas miracle . And in case you get hungry later . @!BOB-ECKSTEIN-@1AUT# He 's even been in , what is considered by many , the greatest movie ever made , " Citizen Kane. " @!CLIP-FROM- " CITIZEN# @!BOB-ECKSTEIN-@1AUT# The snowman , in Orson Welles eyes , he used it as a tool to symbolize innocence , and youth , and childhood . @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Voiceover) This friendlier snowman 's movie stardom opened a door to becoming an advertising icon . Pitching icy or cold products , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was that he was free , royalty free . And in the 11th hour when you could n't find a celebrity or someone to hock a product , you @(inaudible) in the snowman. @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Voiceover) But what future lies ahead for the advertising pitchman cartoon hero in film and TV legend ? @!BOB-ECKSTEIN-@1AUT# I think that it 's time for him to step up to the plate and be a spokesperson for global warming . I think that he 'll definitely get his day in the sun . @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) Who does n't love a snowman ? Now , let 's get to Chris , our special Santa correspondent , who gained his experience being a Santa correspondent all over the world . But now , he 's with kids eagerly waiting a man from the North Pole . Chris ? @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) All right . You ca n't have any better picture of the morning than this . Look how beautiful everybody looks . Look at this . And I , of course , am next to the big man 's chair . Ila @(PH) , who sits in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Claus is gon na be sitting in here . He 's coming for a special treat . Is everybody ready for Santa ? @!KIDS-@1GROUP@2-# Yeah . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) How about you , Blake ? Are you ready for Santa ? @!BLAKE-@1KID@2-# Yeah . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Yeah ? Let me - I got to hear it . I want you say it . And let 's hear a big Santa . Santa , say @(inaudible) . He had a big night last night . He 's gon na come . We 'll be right back . @GRAPHICS @!DIANE-SAWYER-@1-AB# @(Voiceover) Coming up on " Good Morning America , " the most precious gift , yourself . Ways to give back to those in need , even if you do n't have any spare time . Little things you can do that can change an entire life . And Melissa Etheridge here with music from her latest record , a collection of Christmas classics . @!COMMERCIAL-BREAK-# SOLDIER @(FEMALE) We just wan na wish everyone back home a Merry Christmas . @!SOLDIERS-@1GROUP@2# Good morning , America . @!SOLDIER-@1MALE@2-# I wan na say hi to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And I wan na wish everyone a happy holiday . @!SOLDIER-@1MALE@2-# I wan na give a shout to my friends and family , say have Happy New Year and Merry Christmas . @!COMMERCIAL-BREAK-# @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) Welcome back to " Good Morning America " on a Christmas morning . So , we thought we 'd hit the streets , Chris Cuomo and I , to say what did you want for Christmas ? And what 's your favorite Christmas food ? The two very important questions to ask on the roads . Ladies , first of all , can I just say wonderful Christmas sweater ? @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# Thank you . Thank you . @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) And where are you from and what 's your name ? @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# Jerry Frank @(PH) . I 'm from Columbia , Maryland . @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) All right . So what did you want for Christmas ? @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# What do I want for Christmas ? A day when I do n't have to cook . @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) Oh , that might not work out exactly right . But you 're here , so maybe you 're not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ma'am ? Your name and your town ? @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# Janette Moriarty @(PH) from Olney , Maryland . A trip to somewhere warm . @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) All right . Chris ? Chris ? @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) I have Santa in my pocket . All right . So , let 's get to it . Christmas , big deal . What do we get on Christmas ? What do you want ? @!MICHAEL-@1KID@2-# I want toys . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Toys ? What kind of toys ? @!MICHAEL-@1KID@2-# Toys . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Toys-toys . Any kind of toy . It can be anything . @!MICHAEL-@1KID@2-# No . Not girl toys . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Not gold toys ? @!MICHAEL-@1KID@2-# Girl . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Girl . @!KID-@1MALE@2-# Girl . @!MICHAEL-@1KID@2-# Yes . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) What 's your name ? @!MICHAEL-@1KID@2-# Michael . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) All right . That 's what Michael wants . What 's your name ? @!TRISTAN-@1KID@2-# Tristan . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Tristan . You got a nice set of hair . What do you want for Christmas ? @!TRISTAN-@1KID@2-# A laptop and a dog . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) A laptop and a dog . Have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Yes . @!MICHAEL-@1KID@2-# And I want a spy kit . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) A spy cat . @!MICHAEL-@1KID@2-# Kit . @!TRISTAN-@1KID@2-# Kit . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Kit . I do n't know what you 're saying . What do you want for Christmas ? @!KID-@1MALE@2-# Pirate toy . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Pirate toy . What do you want for Christmas ? @!KID-@1MALE@2-# A speed racer car . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) What do you want ? @!KID-@1MALE@2-# A speed racer car . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Speed racer car . What do you want for Christmas ? @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# Diamonds . What do you want for Christmas ? @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# We like that . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) What do you want for Christmas ? @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# Perfume . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Nice . @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# Car . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Car ? Very nice . This is a nice sampling here , nice sampling . @!KID-@1MALE@2-# Video games . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) What kind of video games ? @!KID-@1MALE@2-# " Bolt . " @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) " Bolt . " Oh , that 's what Sam wanted . @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) That 's what I wanted . I like a man who 's prepared , though . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's get to Christmas food . Tell me who you are and where you 're from . @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# I 'm Caroline Waton @(PH) from Boca Raton , Florida . @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) Boca Raton . And what 's your name ? @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# Gail @(PH) . @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) And where are you from ? @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# Boca Raton , Florida . @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) Really ? You kind of know each other ? All right . You kind of just hanging out the street . And your name , sir ? @!MICHAEL-@1AUDIENCE# Michael . @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) All right . So , we 're all kind of like wondering the menu . What 's the favorite Christmas food ? @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# Ooh , definitely Christmas - cookies . @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) Yeah . @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# Yeah . @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) I 'd go with the cookie thing . What do you think ? @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# Yeah . The cookies . @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) The cookies . I mean , think of everything else . There 's a lot of pies on the table too . @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# Yeah . Still cookies . @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) Still cookies . All right , sir . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @(Off-camera) A ham . Hey , Emeril 's cooking a little in there now . @(Inaudible) . And you 're from Oregon . Tell me your name . @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# Chris Gurdy @(PH) . @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) Chris . And so , if we 're thinking food and you 've got all the opportunities for the holiday food , what is it out there ? @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# New York cheesecake . @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) Ooh . Very good . Now , you 're not with the cheesecake company or anything . @(Inaudible) . Oh , but that 's a good one . @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# It 's my first time here . So , I 'm excited . @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) And - maybe today . @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# Go , Beavers. @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) @(Inaudible) they 're from where ? @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# Oregon State University . @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) Oregon State University Beavers . All right . Anybody else ? Who do we not get to ? Come on . You 've got , come on . You 've got to jump in . What do you think ? Favorite food ? @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# Green bean casserole . @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) Ooh . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I like the green bean casserole . And a holiday gift , what were you hoping for Christmas ? @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# I 'll say the Wii Fit . @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) Oh , the game . The Wii Chris played . I actually saw you do , and did n't Robin , like , really just kind of trample you ? @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Moving on . Let me ask you something . Who eats something that 's kind of untraditional Christmas ? No ham , no turkey , no goose . Something different . Who does it ? @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# Tortellinis. @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Tortellinis . Are you one of mine ? Are you Italian ? @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# Italian . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) All right . Anybody else ? Who eat something a little weird on Christmas - anybody ? @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# Sometimes my Spanish family makes Menudo. @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Really ? And what is it ? @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# It 's tripe soup . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Tripe soup . That 's heavy , I think . @!KID-@1MALE@2-# Anything @(inaudible) Christmas . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) You 're still on the toys . We 've got a lot of fun out @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ know what we wan na eat . And how about you , Sam ? What do you wan na eat for Christmas ? @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) I do n't know . I think I wan na get inside where Emeril 's make a little meal and kind of like ... @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Good segue. @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) ... see what 's @(inaudible) . @!KID-@1MALE@2-# I wan na eat meatballs. @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Take us up . @!SAM-CHAMPION-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) We 'll be right back with more " Good Morning America . " Stay with us . COMMERCIAL BREAK '

@@4030241 CHRIS @!WALLACE , HOST : The Senate says " no " to an auto industry bailout . Now , will the president save the big three ? We 'll talk with two Senators leading the debate , Republican Bob Corker , architect of a tough love proposal to help the carmakers , and Democrat Debbie Stabenow of Michigan , a strong advocate for the auto industry . Then the governor of Illinois stands accused of trying to sell Barack Obama ' s Senate seat . Will he be forced from office ? We 'll find out from Tom Cross , the leader of State House Republicans , and Abner Mikva , Obama ' s mentor , who 's advising the state attorney general in the case . Also , has the president-elect been stained by his state 's political corruption ? We 'll ask our Sunday regulars , Brit Hume , Mara Liasson , Bill Kristol , and Juan Williams . And our power player of the week paying a Christmas tribute to the nation 's fallen veterans . All right now on Fox News Sunday . And hello again from Fox News in Washington , where there is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Baghdad this morning for a surprise visit with Iraqi leaders and U.S. military officials . The president is expected to sign the recently approved status of forces agreement with the Iraqi government . Also , this weekend , the Bush administration is working on a taxpayer bailout to prevent the collapse of America 's troubled automakers . The White House abruptly changed its policy on helping Detroit after the Senate voted down a rescue plan . Well , joining us now to discuss what happens next are two key Senators , Republican Bob Corker of Tennessee and Democrat Debbie Stabenow of Michigan , who joins us from her home state . Senator Corker , when I came in to greet you in the green room a moment ago , you were on the phone with the White House . Where does the bailout of the big three stand right now ? @!CORKER : Well , it 's my understanding that Treasury officials are actually going through the balance sheets of the companies , talking with them about where they are . Each of the companies has a very different situation @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of bankruptcy , I think just a few days away . So they 're assessing their options . Obviously , the reason I was talking to them is to advocate some options to them . @!WALLACE : What do you want to see ? @!CORKER : Well , look , I -- we have a problem and that is we have a group of people who think that the companies ought to go bankrupt and go through Chapter 11 and then we have a group of people who just want to put money on top of a capital structure that will not work . General Motors has $62 billion in debt and , even in healthy times , can not pay that back . And then every car they make , they 're at a competitive disadvantage because they are disadvantaged by their labor costs . So we put forth a plan that actually has shared sacrifice , that causes the debt-holders to reduce their debt by two-thirds so the companies are actually viable to do some things on something called VEBA , which actually causes the union to get @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the other hand , causes them to become competitive with Nissan , Honda , Toyota and BMW sometime in the year ' 09 , as certified by the secretary of labor . @!WALLACE : But , Senator -- and I 'm going to bring in Senator Stabenow in a moment -- this is what the negotiations in the Senate broke down over . @!CORKER : Right . @!WALLACE : You were asking the UAW for concessions . They were n't willing to give them . The bill failed and then the White House ... @!CORKER : No , no , no , no. @!WALLACE : Well , let me just -- the White House right away said , " We 're going to bail them out . " Why should n't the UAW believe , well , if the White House gets too tough with us , they 'll eventually blink and they wo n't force any concessions on us. @!CORKER : Well , that is what happened , but the bill that failed was a White House bill , not my proposal . And had the UAW just agreed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ by an Obama secretary of labor , this bill would 've passed with 90 votes . @!WALLACE : I understand that . @!CORKER : And the reason that it did n't pass was the -- and Gettelfinger told me this -- he knew the White House ... @!WALLACE : The head of the UAW. @!CORKER : He knew the White House would bail them out . So at the end of the day , they knew the TARP funds were available and , unfortunately , it kept us from doing something that I think would cause the auto industry , GM , Chrysler ... @!WALLACE : But if I may , just briefly . The direct question is does n't that same dynamic exist now . If the White House were to insist on all of these concessions , Gettelfinger is going say , " You know what ? They 're not going to let us go down . I 'll resist the concessions and the White House will blink . " @!CORKER : Well , of course , I think we should deal with it legislatively . OK . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , I 'm here , I can be down to the Capitol in about an hour . I think Chris Dodd can be down from Connecticut . I think we could solve this appropriately legislatively . But if the government , if the administration is going to use TARP funds , they can write in these same exact conditions . The big conditions of bondholders taking huge cram-downs could be written in to what they do with TARP . So they could do exactly the same thing and , of course , the benefit they have , they do n't have to negotiate . They can say , " This money is available , but it 's only available under these conditions . " @!WALLACE : Senator Stabenow , you favor a bailout . How tough should the administration get in demanding concessions for the $14 billion or however many billion it ends up being from the auto companies , from the auto workers and from the bondholders ? @!STABENOW : Well , Chris , first of all , let me say we 're in a global credit crisis . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ presence is stepping up to help them get through that because they know it 's critical to their economy , it 's critical to jobs , and it 's critical to their national defense . So , so far , we 're the only ones in America that have not understood that and stepped up . I welcome the White House doing that . What Senator Corker is talking about , though , is a structure , first of all , a loan . We had in front of us a $14 billion loan , bridge loan , that would allow them to get through the end of March and to do all the restructuring that he is talking about , bringing administration , the workers , the bondholders , everybody to the table equally to get involved in making the kinds of cutbacks and concessions ... @!WALLACE : But , Senator Stabenow , you have ... @!STABENOW : ... if I may ... @!WALLACE : ... you have -- if I may . You have the leverage now . So why not , before they get the $14 billion @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not in March , but now , before you get the money , agree to these concessions ? @!STABENOW : As far as I 'm concerned , as long as everyone is at the table equally , that 's fine . The Senate Republicans wanted to negotiate once with workers , who 've already been the only ones that have taken cuts , once with workers , first , and then bring everyone together . And I think it 's very important for us to talk about reality , as well . If we talk about hourly wage rate in America , the fact is that GM workers make $0.22 an hour less than Toyota . Chrysler makes exactly the same and Ford makes $1 less . The reality is that it 's health care and pension costs . We 're the only ones that do n't have national health care and pension policies of all the countries that we are competing with . So if , in fact , we 're talking about -- if Senator Corker is saying people should n't get their pension or should n't get @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not , but if he is , I mean , that 's really what we 're talking about . @!WALLACE : All right . Let me -- let me ... @!STABENOW : The structure we need is health care reform . If we want to get to the costs that Senator Corker is talking about , then we need to join with our president-elect and have real health care reform . @!WALLACE : Let 's -- and I know that you 're upset with some of the things or take issues with some of the things that Senator Stabenow said , Senator Corker . The president of the UAW , Ron Gettelfinger , held a news conference Friday , in which he said or suggested that you and other Republicans in the Senate , during his negotiations , tried to set him and the union up . Let 's watch . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!RON-GETTELFINGER- : The GOP caucus was insisting that the restructuring had to be done on the backs of workers and retirees rather than having all stakeholders come to the table . They thought perhaps they could have a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ heart of organized labor while representing the foreign brands . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!WALLACE : Senator Corker , I do n't want to get into the details of hourly rate , wage rates and things like that , but I want to get to the more general question . In your effort to negotiate a deal , were you trying to do it all on the back of the unions or were you saying everybody had to get what 's being called now a haircut ? @!CORKER : Everybody . First of all , I have a General Motors plant in my state . It 's very important to the state . I have been a card-carrying union member myself . We began a process by first getting the bondholders to take $0.30 on the dollar , a $0.70 haircut . That had to happen first by March 15 and if it did n't ... @!WALLACE : And they agreed to that . @!CORKER : They have agreed -- they got -- yes . They have agreed that if they do n't get there , the company has to file bankruptcy . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ at the table , Ford was at the table . They were in the ante room . They agreed to that . Secondly , we agreed to the fact that the VEBA payments was , without getting into a lot of details , $21 billion that General Motors has . Half of it would be paid in stock , half of it in cash . So that 's off to the side . We had everything worked out except for one thing and that is that the UAW had to be competitive . Now , that 's a loose term . And if Deb Stabenow is right that the UAW actually gets paid less than Nissan and Toyota and Honda , then it seems to me it 's a no- brainer . Gettelfinger , I called him the next day and said , " Look , please , I 'm pleading with you . This is not something that 's that difficult . I 'm pleading with you to let the " ... @!WALLACE : And he said ? @!CORKER : And he said , " We know the administration @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ am not going to agree to do this with you . " @!WALLACE : Senator Stabenow , do you think there was an effort by either Senator Corker or other Republicans , as Ron Gettelfinger suggests , to break the union ? @!STABENOW : Well , Chris , let me say this . Bob Corker and I have talked throughout this last week . I believe he is sincere and came to the negotiating table in a sincere way . I also believe , and it was very clear , that his leadership did not want an agreement . While Senator Corker was in the room and while they were negotiating and actually coming to an agreement , leadership staff , Republican staff were already circulating a story that the unions had killed the deal . They did not want an agreement . And here 's my biggest concern . That is a political agenda of the leadership at a time when the economy is teetering on the edge and we have potentially three million people that will go over into the unemployment rolls , taking us off the cliff @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , which is the backbone of the middle class of this country . That is not a slogan . The reality is we built the middle class because we could build things and the fact is that manufacturing is on the edge in this country . This is not the time for a political agenda . Yes , bring everyone to the table . The bill we had in front of us was tough . I believe if Senator Corker and I and others by ourselves , without the Senate leadership looking over his shoulder , were able to come together , we could get an agreement . But it 's got to be fair for everybody and the biggest thing is we have to understand that we have an economy on the edge and people can not play games with this . @!WALLACE : All right . We 've got less than two minutes left and I want to get through a couple of more issues . Senator Stabenow , assuming that the big three get enough money from the Bush administration to tide them over until March , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ three will never have to come back to Washington and ask for more taxpayer money ? @!STABENOW : Well , I think , unfortunately , we 're still in a situation where the long-term restructuring has to be done . There has to be a manufacturing strategy for the future . I 'm confident our incoming president understands that and is committed to that . But we 're in a situation where a short-term bridge loan makes sense and then it 's not about just continuing to give additional loans . It 's about giving them time to be able to restructure , everyone , workers , the CEOs , the suppliers , the bondholders , everybody , so that they have a long-term , viable industry . @!WALLACE : Senator Corker , how long do you expect this to go on and how much is this going to end up costing the taxpayer ? @!CORKER : Look , we have a historic opportunity . The company , GM , has told me if I could 've -- if we would 've been successful this week , they would not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ under the terms that Deb Stabenow is asking , this is the beginning of probably hundreds of billions of dollars , because we 're piling on taxpayer money on top of $62 billion liability that they can not pay back . Let me just say this . I have never been prouder of my conference . Mitch McConnell , we , in the room , were all trying to figure out some way of getting the UAW to just agree to a finite date . I think the Bush administration has a historic opportunity over the next few days , if it 's not coming back to Congress with TARP , and , unfortunately , I think the president has to decide -- is he still running the White House or is the UAW ? And that 's a pretty tough thing , but ... @!STABENOW : And let me just jump in ... @!CORKER : ... I have to tell you , this is a time for the shared sacrifice to happen . @!STABENOW : With all due respect ... @!WALLACE : Senator Stabenow , you get 30 seconds @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , with all due respect , the only people that have already sacrificed , and I can tell you that directly from men and women in my state , have been the workers . The reality is this is not about workers in America . It 's not about workers in America being paid too much . It 's not about the middle class being paid too much . It 's about a long-term commitment to advance manufacturing and that 's what we 're talking about . @!WALLACE : All right . We 're going to have to leave it there . Senator Stabenow , Senator Corker , thank you both . Thanks for coming in . We 'll see what happens this week . Coming up , Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich and the scandal of our president-elect Obama ' s vacant Senate seat . What 's next for the governor and what 's the political damage to Democrats ? We 'll hear from two men at the center of the storm when we come back . '

@@4030941 @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Off-camera) You might think what houses are selling for these days is a steal . But the real steal is what 's going on at the open houses , where sticky fingers can lead to a sticky situation . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) In a suburb of New Jersey , this $1.4 million home is up for sale , and this weekend , there 's an open house to help bring in prospective buyers . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# Hi , nice to meet you . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# Hi . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) While most folks have come to check out the cabinets and details of the house , something strange is going on here . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# Is n't that nice ? @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) See those two women ? They seem far more interested in these gifts left from a party the night before . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# Look at that . Hey , ( makes noise ) . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Wait a minute , is she grabbing that and slipping it in her purse ? @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# Hey , that was awesome . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Right in front of the other visitors to the home ? This woman certainly looks like she saw what happened . Now @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ brazen thieves are ready to strike again . See those prescription pills ? Again , there 's little doubt this woman witnessed the crime , and this time , she tells her friend . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# Are you positive ? @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) But what will they do ? They have no idea that the thieves and the woman showing the home are actors , and we 're directing them through ear pieces . But we did n't make this up . Our hidden camera experiment is ripped from the headlines based on these real-life gal pals caught here on surveillance tape . Police say they stole tens of thousands of dollars in items from open houses at pricey Manhattan homes . They got caught . But back in New Jersey , our thieves are still swiping everything in sight . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# Did you see my laptop ? @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# No. @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# Did anyone see my ... @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# If your laptop 's missing , then it 's those girls . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) This guy seems pretty certain who took that laptop . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# If you , guys , can we just check your @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ personal . Why would you wan na check our ... @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# Because there 's a laptop missing . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) But who appointed him sheriff ? Well , we later learn that his brother is a cop . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# If you do n't let me see in the bag , then we 're gon na follow you to your car and we 're gon na take your license plate . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# What ? @(Inaudible) . That 's great . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# I 'm not gon na show him my bag . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# I 'm not ... @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# Then you took the laptop . Then that 's my guess is that you took the laptop . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# Stop . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# Your guess ? @!**29;1707;TOOLONG I 'm sorry . I have to go . @(Inaudible) . It 's really ... @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# Well , @(inaudible) . 911 OPERATOR @(MALE) 911 , where is your emergency ? @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# We need you to send a police officer to 108 Shrewsbury . 911 OPERATOR @(MALE) Okay . Sir , what 's the problem ? @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) But the police wo n't be coming . They know all @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are at it again when these three women walk in. @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# Tracy , look at this . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# Well , that 's nice . Silver ? That 's nice . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# Silver @(inaudible) . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) At first , they seem paralyzed . But not for long . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# Excuse me . Did you just put something into your bag ? @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# What ? @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# In your bag . We saw you put some , you know , silver into your bag . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# Oh , no . No , no , no . I have this , no . No. @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# Do you mind ? @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# She was trying to @(inaudible) . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# What are you accusing me of ? @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# No , no . We just saw you put something in your bag so we 're just wondering . Yeah . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# While she takes on the thieves , without saying a word to her friend , look at what she 's up to . 911 OPERATOR @(MALE) 911 where is your emergency ? @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# 108 Shrewsbury . 911 OPERATOR @(MALE) What 's the purpose , ma'am ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @(Voiceover) Back in the dining room , the emergency is escalating . Our brazen thieves are stealing again , this time , taking gifts out of those bags . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# Hey , miss ? What are you doing ? Miss , what are you doing ? Take it out . Take it out . Take it out . Take it out . Take it out . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# Ma'am , you 're kind of being confrontational and that 's making us , I mean uneasy . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# No , no , no , no , no . No , no . Okay , just stay here until police come , you know ? So we do n't have any confusion here . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# You know what ? I do n't , no . No . This is not , you 're completely mistaken . You 're completely mistaken , all right ? @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# Okay , yes . But we , we might be , but you know , but you put something into your bag there . I just saw , again . If you do n't mind , just open @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have to show you my bag . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# No , you do n't have to . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) And now she literally blocks the door . @!CARRIE-KEATING-@1P# Very brave . And it was clear that she was gaining momentum from her friends . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Colgate University psychology professor Carrie Keating has been watching with us from the floor below . @!CARRIE-KEATING-@1P# One thing we know about intervention is that when people form a team , when one friend reacts , others generally follow suit . Look how quickly they decided that this was an event worth intervening . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Off-camera) You were actually blocking the door . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# Yeah , I was . Yeah . Yeah , I was . I did n't want them to go . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Off-camera) They 're bigger than you are . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# I do n't care . You know , I just wanted to do the right thing . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Off-camera) But these were n't your things that were being stolen . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# I know , I know . But it 's just , I guess a sense of justice or sense of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ again ? And what if the thieves are African-American ? We swap actors who begin a new crime spree . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# Look , in the bags . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# Oh . Oh , wow . That @(inaudible) . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# I ca n't believe they just left this out here . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) There 's no doubt this couple sees our thieves with that mink coat . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# I think you should try it on . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# Oh , this is their coat . I 'm not gon na try it . @!**29;1738;TOOLONG Try it on . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) And we 're pretty sure this woman back there in the distance is aware of it , too . She also appears to see what happens next . And see that iPod ? We 're almost certain the first couple is onto that crime . But more than five minutes go by and no one does a thing . So , we direct our actress , Margo , to speak up . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# Any of you noticed that , I thought there was a mink coat in that box over there . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ know , I do n't , I thought there was , but I do n't see it . I do n't see it . I do n't ... @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# Oh , excuse me ? @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# She has it in her bag . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# What are you ... @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# She has it in her bag . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# What ? I came in with this bag . I do n't know what you 're talking about . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# The mink coat 's in her bag . You just stole it from this box . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# Stole ? @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Now watch these two couples , complete strangers , as the thieves head for the front door . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# You stole the coat . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# No. @!**29;1800;TOOLONG We came in with this . 911 OPERATOR @(MALE) 911 , what 's the problem ma'am ? @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# There 's an open house and there 's somebody in here stealing things . She stole everything . That girl just stole everything , yes . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# This is really wrong because I have a feeling that you 're doing this because we 're black , honestly . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @(inaudible) . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# No , no. @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# It 's not about that . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# Nothing to do with that . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# They said they saw you . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# They just said they 're missing a coat and you happen to have a coat . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# I saw you pick the coat up from the box . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# Yes . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# You went , ' Ooh , nice coat . " @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# She tried it on . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# And now it 's in your ... @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# I just do n't understand it . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# No , no , no . You can not go . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# No . Excuse me . I do n't ... @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# @(Inaudible). @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# I think I should go , actually . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# Yeah , right . You should wait for the police to come . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) As one couple blocks the door , this woman has slipped out front . 911 OPERATOR @(MALE) 911 , where is your emergency ? @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# Hi , my emergency is 108 Shrewsbury . 911 OPERATOR @(MALE) Mm-hmm . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# Are the cops coming ? 911 OPERATOR @(MALE) Yeah . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have to hurry because these people are trying to get away . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Once again , we 're surprised by the response , and this time , among strangers . Psychologists say there 's strength in having someone else back you up . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# Yes , absolutely . I mean , part of me , believe me , said , ' Oh , my God . Let me get out of here quick . " You know , but I didn't. @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Off-camera) It was nice to have her here ? @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# Oh , absolutely . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# Yeah , exactly . I feel like a stronger , you know , when there are people around me , so I feel I 'm not alone , you know ? @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) But remember , no one did a thing until our actress , Margo , spoke up . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Did it cause you to pause a little because they 're African-American ? Did you not wan na accuse them ? @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# It had nothing to do with the race . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# We are minority , too . We are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ When it 's wrong , it 's wrong . It does n't matter if you are black , you 're white , you 're yellow , you know , whatever color . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Off-camera) They say they did n't consider race at all . @!CARRIE-KEATING-@1P# Hard to believe that race was n't somewhat of a factor because it 's the first thing we see . And we ca n't help but recognize it . But that does n't mean all of our responses have to be driven by it . And you could see that the respondents were really working hard to correctly assess what was going on in the room and once they were sure , that the fur coat , in fact , had been lifted , that 's when they confronted the women . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) But what if the thief is a black man ? While our experiment is hardly scientific , once again , we swap actors . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# Hi there . How are you ? @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# Hello , good afternoon . Hi . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Until now , women have been noticing all the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the blue shirt as that ring disappears . And then , that iPod . And as our thief pushes his luck , that gift box , too . Now , watch what he does . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# The fellow that 's walking around ... @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# In the open house ? @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# ... he 's picked up about four different items and put them in his bag . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# I beg your pardon ? @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# He 's picked up about four different items and put them in his bag . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# He has ? @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# Yes . What should I do ? @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# Excuse me , sir ? @!ACTOR-@1MALE@2-# Yeah ? @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# You picked up an iPod over here . Was it yours ? @!ACTOR-@1MALE@2-# Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# No. @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# You sure ? This lady has been here watching the place . She says it was n't yours . @!ACTOR-@1MALE@2-# I 'm sorry , what ? @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# There was an iPod that was over here I saw you put in your bag . @!ACTOR-@1MALE@2-# Yeah . It 's mine . I told you . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# Why are you looking so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ man . You 're just all in my business . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) It 's then that our thief heads for the door . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# There ai n't gon na be no trouble if you just drop whatever you left and just run . @!ACTOR-@1MALE@2-# I 'm not running for anything . Excuse me. @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# Come on , guy . Do n't do this . Do n't get like that . Come on . Just drop what you left and go . Ai n't gon na be no trouble . @!ACTOR-@1MALE@2-# I do n't want any trouble . I just wan na leave . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# Well , then , open your bag and drop your stuff . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Off-camera) That was the risky moment , confronting him and accusing him . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# Well , I figure most people are normally honest , so I kind of assume that if I confronted him then he would probably , you know , repent , do the right thing and go . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Off-camera) You gave him a chance to run . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# I gave him a chance to relinquish his goods and then @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I was down on my luck and being stupid enough to steal something , someone would say , ' Hey , buddy , do you really wan na do that ? " @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Someone said something in every single scenario . @!CARRIE-KEATING-@1P# They did . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Did n't matter whether the thief was white or black . @!CARRIE-KEATING-@1P# It did n't seem to matter at all . @!PROSPECTIVE-BUYER-# Take it out . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) And remarkably , they took on our thieves in a home that was n't even their own , but that of a stranger . @!CARRIE-KEATING-@1P# In this particular community , people are very likely to step up . They all did 100% . And I think this community is richer for it . @!ANNOUNCER-# Next , the wedding guests have arrived . @!MARK-NOONAN-@1WEDD# Shall we sign ? @!ANNOUNCER-# Only problem is , they were n't invited . @!BECCA-@1GUEST@2-# Vince Vaughn , Owen Wilson . One wedding , two crashers . That 's my punchline. @!ANNOUNCER-# If these guys crashed the biggest day of your life ... @!MARK-NOONAN-@1WEDD# Yeah . @!ANNOUNCER-# What would you do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , I got him . @!MARK-NOONAN-@1WEDD# Slow down . @!ANNOUNCER-# When we come back . COMMERCIAL BREAK '

@@4031041 @!SENATOR-LINDSEY-GR# I would not take off the idea of nationalizing the banks . @!AL-HUNT-@1BLOOMBER# Some nationalization of a few banks may be very likely . @!SENATOR-CHRIS-DODD# I do n't welcome that at all . But I can see how it 's possible it may happen . @!ART-CASHIN-@1UBS-S# You 're a shareholder in XYZ Bank and you own the common stock . The concept is , if it gets nationalized , you 'll have zero . @!ROBERT-GIBBS-@1WHI# The president believes that a privately held banking system regulated by the government is what this country should have . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) That statement from Press Secretary Robert Gibbs did not stop the market from reaching it 's lowest level in more than seven years this week . Nationalization was the big economic debate . Let 's debate it here with George Will , as always , Dr Nouriel Rubini , from NYU , they call you Dr Doom because you saw this coming many years ago . Thanks for joining us this morning . Paul Krugman of " The New York Times . " And Suzy Welsh of " Business Week . " Welcome to all of you . And George , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ weeks you 've seen something that was radioactive even six months ago , the idea nationalizing major banks in this country moving towards something of a consensus . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) This week , a Democratic administration reproved Alan Greenspan for reckless talk about nationalization . That 's how through the looking glass we now are . Nationalization usually means to people socialism . Socialism usually means public ownership of the commanding heights of the economy or instruments of manufacture or distribution and exchange . We 've learned now that you can have thorough political and government control of the economy without that . So at this point , with credit now treated essentially as a public utility , the difference between what we have and what nationalization would be is marginal . One number . The market capitalization of Bank of America is $19 billion . Since October , they 've received $45 billion in public funds , what 's the difference ? @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) So , Dr Rubini , it 's now a small step . You 've been talking about this for an awful long time . And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have to stop a $1.8 trillion problem in the banks . But I wonder if you could take a step back and simply explain to everybody , George says it 's a small step . What would this mean ? What would nationalization mean right now ? @!DOCTOR-NOURIEL-ROU# First of all , you know , no one is in favor of a long-term ownership of the banking system by the government . That would be a bad idea . Those like myself who support it , think about the government taking over the bank , cleaning them up , separating the good and the bad assets and then selling them back in short order to the private sector . That 's what was done , for example , in Sweden . Instead in Japan they kept zombie banks alive for a decade and the recession became a near depression for a decade . So everybody is in favor of a temporary control of these banks . Essentially it means that there are some banks that are so insolvent , their assets are well below their liabilities . We 've already @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ these banks . This has not anymore even been part of an examination , when Alan Greenspan , when Lindsey Graham and others are saying we want the temporary nationalization . We 're thinking about cleaning up the problem and then bringing back the banks to the private sector . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Yet , Suzy , you still have major bankers like Ken Lewis of Bank of America putting out a memo on Friday saying I 'm confident we 're not going to need any further assistance in the future . Is he whistling in the dark ? @!SUZY-WELCH-@1 " BUSI# That is the keyword , which is confidence . And what happens with the nationalization to confidence is the big question . And if we 're going to make any sense of this , we have to have a context around the nationalization . Nationalization somehow makes people more anxious . And if we 're going to have nationalization , then we have to say , well , this is the purpose of it . This is how long it 's going to last . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) So maybe @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ BUSI# Well , what is a leader 's job but to put context around it ? I do n't know if you 'd put another name around it but you would want to put it in the context of a larger economic program . @!PAUL-KRUGMAN-@1 " NE# People have actually proposed calling it pre-privatization . No one wants to - Gibbs statement was masterful . It sounded like a reassurance , he was actually saying what everybody believes . Nobody wants the government running the banking system for any length of time . But the question is how , and you know ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) And when he was pressed , he would n't rule that out ? @!PAUL-KRUGMAN-@1 " NE# Right . Now , the thing you want to bear in mind , is , you know , we 've nationalized 14 banks already this year . We do n't call it that , but there were 14 banks , 2 a week that the FDIC seized because they did n't have enough assets to pay their depositors . The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation says , okay , we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ stockholders . We 're going to do exactly what Nouriel said we should be doing for some major banks . So actually a nationalization , properly understood is as America as apple pie . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) But help me out on this . Because you say there 's a $1.8 trillion dollar problem of toxic assets inside the banks . Yet , as I just ready to Suzy , Ken Welch says , wait a second , we 're making profits . We 're confident right now . Citigroup says they still have plenty of tier one capital . Someone is not telling the truth here , are they ? @!PAUL-KRUGMAN-@1 " NE# No , no , it 's a difference of - you know , there is a possibility that if everything goes fine B of A might be okay . But there 's also a possibility that it will go bust . Now , naturally , Ken Lewis is going to say , you know , it looks fine to us . But the point is actually without a government guarantee of some kind , they would not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ without the - the only reason they 're able to continue in existence even now is the fact that people think there 's a downside in their losses . That their creditors will be paid somehow regardless . So , naturally , of course , it 's the interest of the stockholders and the current management to keep playing this thing out because it 's heads they win and tails the taxpayer lose . What 's at stake is whether in fact we 're going to , you know , end that one way debt and say okay , look , the taxpayers get the upside as well as the downside. @!SUZY-WELCH-@1 " BUSI# People here - they hear one thing , they hear the other thing . You just asked is somebody not telling the truth . And somebody has to say the reason why we would nationalize , that what it would look like at the other side . The context for why we 're doing this is this . And , you know , you may hearing all different opinions . There is a vision for what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!DOCTOR-NOURIEL-ROU# Fiscal conservative , by the way , throwing away trillions of dollars of public money . We 've already put seven to nine trillions of dollar in the financial system to get liquidity , and capital support . It 's going to be fiscally very expensive . You wipe out the shareholders , if you treat the unsecured creditors , the fiscal cost is going to be lower . And when you sell these banks back ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) So you do it all at once . @!DOCTOR-NOURIEL-ROU# You do it all at once . There 's going to be lower fiscal costs . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Okay . And another conservative side of this plan is , this taxpayer gets something like equity in these banks . And the taxpayer ought to get something besides recovery , assuming there 's recovery . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) And we 're seeing the next step to it this week , when these so-called stress test start . @!PAUL-KRUGMAN-@1 " NE# That 's right . Actually what I 'm hoping for ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Explain what those are . @!PAUL-KRUGMAN-@1 " NE# Stress @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ see how bad could things be if we make moderately pessimistic assumptions , how bad could this be . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) 11% unemployment . @!PAUL-KRUGMAN-@1 " NE# Something like that . And we actually already sort of know what it 's going to be . Right ? It 's going to say that the major banks - the four big banks could lose $450 billion which means that they actually need more money . What we 're hoping that this is going to do is that it 's going to be a Claude Raines moment . Geithner 's people come in and say I 'm shocked , shocked to discover that Citibank and Bank of America really need massive government aid so we 're going to have to put them in receivership . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) What we also saw this week was the president 's housing plan come out . And it got a little bit of a reaction from the cable news talkers . Rick Santelli on CNBC saying - you know , sparking a populist backlash saying it 's just unfair . That also got the attention of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ think , quite wrongly , that this plan wo n't help everyone . This plan will help by the money that 's invested in Freddie and Fannie will drive down mortgage rates for millions of Americans . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) That 's the argument for the broad benefit , George . But the actual plan , $275a billion plan will probably be focusing on about 9 million homeowners , not under water , but who are n't eligible for refinancing right now . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) It 's going to help a lot of people , for example . Who , as they say , have little equity in their homes , that is , they 've been paying mostly interest on their mortgages . What do we call people with little equity in their homes ? We really call them renters . That 's essentially what these people are . It 's not their homes . Now , obviously , there 's moral hazard in this . Obviously , you ca n't , in a continental nation where you have these crises of foreclosures concentrated in about five states and a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ at a continent trying to help small spots on the continent . @!SUZY-WELCH-@1 " BUSI# But this discussion of moral hazard and that Santelli moment , that - you know , for the sake of argument , let 's talk about this maybe being a revolution . Of course , there 's not guns in the street . But think about what 's going on . There 's massive uncertainty , there 's panic , there 's vilification of certain groups , there 's blame mongering , there 's upending of institutions . And if that 's what it is , and our kids are going to look back at this and our grandchildren and study this period , what 's it going to be called ? Is it the grand reinvention ? Is it - let 's make sense of it . So when Santelli has that moment , that populist moment , and then Gibbs comes back out at him that people sitting at home watching that fight ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) But it goes to a very simple question . Is it fair or not ? @!SUZY-WELCH-@1 " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ fairness . @!DOCTOR-NOURIEL-ROU# There 's going to be about 8.4 million households that do n't have jobs , they lost their jobs because of the unemployment rate who have a home . It 's not their fault . They were working . They lost their jobs . They have no jobs right now . They 're going to lose their homes . Does it make sense to throw them out of their homes ? It 's a social problem here . @!PAUL-KRUGMAN-@1 " NE# That a lot of problem is that these homes are not worth what people thought they would be worth . And if they had gone out and said , you know , I believe this house is going to be worth a lot of money even though all the experts were telling them otherwise , that would be one thing . But in fact , they were watching CNBC , where anyone who said there 's a housing bubble was called a bubblehead . And , you know , they 're - Alan Greenspan and Larry were telling them it 's great , go ahead and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ moral hazard than there would be ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) And is there a real potential , as Gibbs was talking about this , Doctor Rubini , for a refinancing boom , but I guess a safe refinancing boom this time ? @!DOCTOR-NOURIEL-ROU# There is . But in my view this plan actually of the administration does n't go far enough . I think that a few months ago Ben Bernanke said we need face value reduction , principal value reduction because so many people are so under water , that soon enough , they 're gon na either walk away and they 're not gon na be able to refinance or they 're gon na be forced out of their homes , you know ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) So just force the banks to write down a lot of the principal ? @!DOCTOR-NOURIEL-ROU# We 'll have to do it . You can try to subsidize part of it . But really at some point down the line we 'll have to do even more than this plan is counting . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Wo n't this mean in the future , if @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the cost of a mortgage is going to have a higher risk premium built into it because lenders will say , well you never know , the bank - the government might come in and tell us to rewrite down . And is n't it also the case that 55% of renegotiated mortgages are again in default in six months ? @!SUZY-WELCH-@1 " BUSI# Right . And then there will be more discussion of fairness . @!DOCTOR-NOURIEL-ROU# They are but because they are stretching the maturity rather than reducing the face value of the mortgage . When people are insolvent , you have to reduce the face value . And you have millions of houses that are buried under a mountain of mortgage debt , credit cards , auto loan , student loans , for some of them , those who lost jobs , those were essentially first home buyers , you do n't want to give this tax relief to the second homes , to the vacation homes , to those who were for speculative reasons , but those who had first homes and they lost their jobs and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) You know , you talked about how you have to make sense of this era . And part of the way you make sense of an era is by figuring out how you got into the mess to begin with . Paul , I was struck by Jamie Dimon this week of JPMorgan said he came out for a 9/11-style commission to look into what went wrong , how we got here . He said , listen , this crisis is at least as critical as what happened in 9/11 . We should do it here as well . @!PAUL-KRUGMAN-@1 " NE# You know , we 're having that debate . It 's not that there 's a shortage of discussions . And we know that there are bitter ideological divisions . There 's one segment certainly on the Republican side that is determined to believe that it was the government pushing loans on minority groups that 's the cause of the crisis . The numbers do n't support that but they 're not gon na give up that view . There are people who think that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . I think the numbers say no . But , no , this is ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) So who 's the culprit ? Or is there ? @!PAUL-KRUGMAN-@1 " NE# Oh , there are many , many culprits . I mean , you know , Alan Greenspan , if there 's a single biggest villain , but he 's only responsible for maybe 1% of it . It 's just many things . And we just had this huge excess of optimism , excess of debt , out of control financial system , bonuses on Wall Street , all of these things combined to create a crisis . And I 'm not sure that a bipartisan commission is going to help us. @!SUZY-WELCH-@1 " BUSI# It 's like " Murder on the Orient Express . " At the end , every single person stuck a knife into the victim . But , you know , you have to wonder , if everybody wants to have names named , how does that move us forward ? We wrote a column recently where we talked about the culpability of boards . And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ But they were - too much is expected of them . We were deluged with letters . More than usual . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Complaints or praise ? @!SUZY-WELCH-@1 " BUSI# This was a very negative response . I mean there was maybe one person who agreed with us in this case . Most people said , you know , with anger , with anger , you ca n't believe about how boards were responsible . Where were the boards . And we had argued that boards were responsible , but to expect boards with one day a week to come in and understand the operations of complex financial institutions is too much . @!DOCTOR-NOURIEL-ROU# We have to go beyond the blame game at this point . I mean we have the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression , the worst economic crisis . It 's not just the US , it 's Europe , it 's Japan , it 's emerging markets . For not having a bipartisan approach for these things if we do n't with other countries , this could become as bad as the Great Depression @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sit down , looking ahead ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Even with everything that 's been done there 's still the possibility that this will slip into a Great Depression ? @!DOCTOR-NOURIEL-ROU# It could be . Because for example , if we keep alive zombie banks rather than clean them up , that makes things worse . If we 're not going to resolve the debt problem and housing , that 's going to get it worse . If you do n't do the right fiscal plan , things are gon na get worse . If we do n't do the right monetary policy , things could get worse . There are many lessons from Japan and the Great Depression , about things that work and things that do n't work . We have to do it - you need leadership , you have to restore the market and public confidence in policy . This is crucial . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Voiceover) But assessing blame is not sterile , because from it , you learn lessons about what to do in the future . And surely , the reason we wo n't have a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ about 300 million villains here and they 're the great American people who went on a 25-year shopping spree they could not afford . 1980s , we saved 9 cents of every dollar of disposable income . In 1990s a nickel . The saving rate goes negative in 2005 . You ca n't go on that way . @!SUZY-WELCH-@1 " BUSI# You found ... @!PAUL-KRUGMAN-@1 " NE# I would disagree . I think it 's 600 million because the Europeans are as bad as we are . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Meanwhile , the president is taking his next step in addressing what to do about all of this . This week , he has the fiscal responsibility summit . Tomorrow , says we have to get a handle on the deficit . Tuesday night , he speaks to the nation , the equivalent to a State of the Union , on the economy . Thursday , he will roll out his budget . And , George , we 're getting details of the budget already . Telling us some things we probably knew . That he 's not going to move @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's going to wait to let the Bush tax cuts expire . He says he 's going to continue to push for health care but does n't identify a revenue source . Yet , White House officials insist that this will be an honest budget . No smoke and mirrors . Yet , they say that the president will be able to reduce the deficit , cut it in half in the next four years . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) He says it will be an honest budget and it will be to the extent that he puts on the budget , things like the cost of the wars we 're waging . That 's quite sensible . It will not be an honest budget in the sense that there has n't been an honest budget since the unified budget went in , in 1969 and we used the social security surplus to mask in fact , what we 're - what our real deficit is . I mean , if we had to write the federal budget the way corporations have to budget , we 'd have a trillion dollar deficit @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , what he 's not going to do is he 's not going to do the Bush practice of sunsets . And the reason those tax cuts expire at the last day of 2010 is because they wanted to keep the ten-year cost of the original Bush tax cut down . That 's why the estate tax , you know , is zero next year and then jumps up to 55% . I called that the " throw momma from the train " tax cut . But , no I mean it 's - so he 's going to fix that . But , yeah , there 's a lot of things that wo n't be - realistic possibilities of expenses that wo n't be in there . And some assessments are a lot more pessimistic than what the White House would issue . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) And he 's pretty optimistic about unraveling the war in Iraq . You know , Suzy , I wonder if you - listening to Governor Schwarzenegger he says that Republicans have to get over this allergy to tax increases of any time . In @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ expire . Is this a fight that the Republican Party should take on ? @!SUZY-WELCH-@1 " BUSI# If it 's given the context the Republican Party , I think , is in the place right now where they want to have some kind of movement forward and the lack - the end of the period where the Republicans and Democrats did not speak to each other . Should they take it on ? In my opinion , no . I think we should look for solutions that move us forward as a nation so that we know , Barack Obama has said , this is the beginning of the end . I think what Democrats and Republicans want to know is what is the new beginning then . If this is the beginning of the end , and then there 's going to be a new beginning , what is the new America going to look like . That 's what I want to hear along with what 's in the budget . I want to hear what is the America we are driving towards . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) And the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are going to thank you to put - have the president spell out a little more clearly what the benefits of this plan are . Because they were getting hit a little bit for raising too much fear over the last couple of weeks . But I wonder , Dr Rubini , if you think this budget addressed the scale of the problem ? And is it realistic to talk about cutting the deficit in half over the next four years ? @!DOCTOR-NOURIEL-ROU# We 'll have to do it because we 're going to add in the new few years about four to five trillion dollars to the public debt . Right now , there is no risk for insolvency of the US government . But four or five years from now , if we have this major deficit , there could be a downgrade . Therefore , it 's crucial while we 're doing the fiscal stimulus in the short run to think about medium term fiscal . And that means eventually , we 'll have to raise some taxes and cut some service . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) So reducing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the argument ? @!DOCTOR-NOURIEL-ROU# It does . Because if you do n't signal there is fiscal sustainability in the medium term , eventually , long-term interest are going to go up . Because people are going to be worried about the sustainability of our fiscal deficit . That 's why it 's important today to signal we 're gon na do the cutbacks in the future . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) And one thing you can not cut back is the interest you 're paying on the borrowing you 're doing . And we 're not the only people borrowing . There 's a stimulus plan in Europe . There 's a stimulus plan in China . Everyone is going into a finite pool of capital trying to borrow . The costs of borrowing are going to go way up . The interest component of the budget is going to go way up . @!PAUL-KRUGMAN-@1 " NE# I do n't agree with that because there is , you know there is a lot of capital sloshing around there because nobody wants to do business investment . Essentially worldwide , a lot of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ money to anyone in the private sector . So in some sense what we 're doing is we 're recycling the money that the private sector refuses or is unable to borrow . So I 'm not at all clear that there 's actually going to be that ... @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) But Paul , when confidence returns we want that money to go into private investment . @!PAUL-KRUGMAN-@1 " NE# Well , that 's when you scale back the budget deficit . @!DOCTOR-NOURIEL-ROU# But in other countries actually the interest that is being paid on the public debt is rising . Not just in emerging markets but now even in Europe because there are default fears . We do n't want to be in a situation a few years from now in the United States where there is this kind of fear . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) We only have about 30 seconds left . The president had put great hope that when he moved to fiscal issues that he actually could get more Republican cooperation than he got on the stimulus . Is that possible ? @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) It is . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the stimulus plan , I think Republicans are eager to find something they can agree on . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) On that note of optimism we 're going to have to end this for today . You guys can continue that in the green room . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Voiceover) And you can watch it later on ABCNews.com . And for political updates all week long , follow me on twitter and Facebook . Coming up here , " The Sunday Funnies. " @!ANNOUNCER-# " The Roundtable " is brought to you by ... COMMERCIAL BREAK '

@@4031141 @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# Whether it be caused by disease , aging or tragic accident , living life with radical hair loss can be crippling . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# Everybody thinks that you have some evil agenda , that , are you part of a cult or are you with some biker gang or are you butch ? @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# It can lead to isolation , depression , even death . That 's why we are so proud to introduce ProPelage Power , a revolutionary new hair care product that literally promotes hair growth overnight . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Off-camera) If you 've ever spent a late night in front of a TV , then you know an infomercial when you see one . But what if someone asked you to be in an infomercial and to make outrageous claims about a product you 've never used ? Would you do it for the money and a chance to be on TV ? @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) To find out , we decide to create our own infomercial . We take our cameras to one of the infomercial capitals of the world , Las Vegas . We place an ad in the local paper offering every day people $75 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ walks of life . Of course , they did n't know that we made up everything . ProPelage does n't actually exist . The product , design , packaging , brochures , even the website , are all fake . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# Thanks to ProPelage Power . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) We also hire an actor , Paul Mattingly , to play a smarmy infomercial producer . And we cast Jesse , an actress , to pose as one of the participants . You 'll see why in a moment . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# The product we are endorsing today , ProPelage , is going to revolutionize hair care . It 's going to revolutionize the world , I think . Folks , I 've done hundreds of these infomercials , and I said , this is the first time that I 've really been convinced of a product 's true value . Folks are going to bed , spotty , balding hair . They apply the product in the evening , the next morning , there is full growth . @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# Wow . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# I know . And it 's , it 's outstanding @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we ran this experiment on five groups of people , 19 in all . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# So , I want you all to understand as well , we are making you the stars of this show . So , I 'm gon na have a couple of brochures here . If you wan na take ... @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) We ask Paul to leave the room , giving our applicants time to read the fine print , which gets stranger and stranger . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# ... and we 'll be back soon to get one of you . All right ? @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# ' Cause it 's got mostly natural stuff in it . @!PARTICIPANT-@1MALE# Until you get down to here with the ammonia , sodium methyl @(inaudible) or whatever the hell these other long words are . @!MIKE-@1PARTICIPANT# It 's got a lot of ammonia in it . @!TIM-@1PARTICIPANT@# How can it say 100% natural if it 's got EDTA and methyl chloride ... @!PARTICIPANT-@1MALE# Look , carcinogens . It actually lists as carcinogens. @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# I do n't know if we 're supposed to ... @!THERO-@1PARTICIPAN# It says cause temporary redness , rashes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# Hair loss ? @!THERO-@1PARTICIPAN# Hair loss . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) We 're watching everything from a nearby control room . Through a hidden ear piece , we tell Jesse , our actress , to put some of the product in her own hair . @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# Shine your healthy hair just by using an ... @!JESSE-@1ACTRESS@2-# It says three times a day , you got to use it . @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# Really ? Okay . @!JESSE-@1ACTRESS@2-# Yeah . It 's like really tingly. @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# Really ? @!JESSE-@1ACTRESS@2-# Yeah . It 's almost like burning . Should I wash it out ? It 's really , it 's really burning . @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# Really ? Okay , you might wan na , like , go into the restroom . There 's a restroom down the hall . @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# Oh , my God . @!KELLY-@1PARTICIPAN# Oh , my God , her hair is falling out . @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# Oh , my gosh . @!PARTICIPANT-@1MALE# Wow . @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# Oh , my God . @!JESSE-@1ACTRESS@2-# That 's ... @!KELLY-@1PARTICIPAN# You do n't have extensions in , do you ? @!JESSE-@1ACTRESS@2-# No. @!KELLY-@1PARTICIPAN# What happened ? @!JESSE-@1ACTRESS@2-# It really @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# Yeah , I would . @!PARTICIPANT-@1MALE# Yeah . @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# Oh , my God . @!JESSE-@1ACTRESS@2-# Oh , my God . It 's , like , falling out of my head . I only put , like , like a little dab or something . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# @(Inaudible) go first ? @!KELLY-@1PARTICIPAN# We 're having a little bit of an emergency here , Steve . @!JESSE-@1ACTRESS@2-# Just , just , like , like , like a dot of it and , like right here and ... @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# Did you put it directly in your hair ? @!JESSE-@1ACTRESS@2-# ... and it 's like , it 's like burning still . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# Come with me . Come with me . Come with me . Did you put it directly in your hair ? @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) You guessed it . That 's not her real hair that fell out , but the others do n't know that . It 's all part of our scheme to cast doubt on the safety of ProPelage. @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# Let 's not touch any of what 's in it . @!ROBERT-@1PARTICIPA# Let 's just face it . There 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Yeah . @!KELLY-@1PARTICIPAN# I thought her hair was literally , like , just coming out in globs . It was like , that was like @(inaudible) . @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# Yeah . There 's hair on the floor . @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# Burn . It 's , like , it held it up to a flame . @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# Eww , eww , that 's not good . @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# And we 're gon na advocate this ? @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# Oh , shoot . @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# $75. @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# Is n't that terrible ? @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# Our names could be attached , our faces could be attached to this ( censored by network ) . I think that I , endorsing a product that , her hair fell out in chunks . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Having seen all that , would anyone be willing to put themselves on the line and endorse our product ? What would you do ? @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# It was n't , it was n't the ProPelage . She 's got some kind of , I think , preexisting condition . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Despite whatever reservations any of our participants may have had , nobody leaves , as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , we look around to see what everyone else is doing , and we use that as information . We assume that they know something we do n't know . So , we trust what they 're doing more than we trust our own instincts . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# Are you ready ? @!KELLY-@1PARTICIPAN# Yes . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# Let 's go . @!KELLY-@1PARTICIPAN# Rock and roll . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) They all head into the studio with Paul . Remember , no one in this group has hair loss or ever used ProPelage Power . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# I want you to use your own words here . I want you to make this your own . @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# There was a day where I was actually driving with me and a bunch of my friends . You know , we have the convertible top down , and unfortunately , a lot of my hair came out . @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# My scalp did n't heal correctly , so I was kind of bald in one spot . @!THERO-@1PARTICIPAN# When I first lost my hair , I was , I was devastated . @!ROBERT-@1PARTICIPA# The most heartbreaking time of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# Just overnight , my hair grew back . @!ROBERT-@1PARTICIPA# And so , I used ProPelage Power on there , and it grew back , and I could n't believe it . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# Wonderful . Wonderful . Fantastic . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Excuse me , Robert . How are you ? @!ROBERT-@1PARTICIPA# Hi . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Off-camera) I 'm John Quinones with ABC News , ' What Would You Do ? " @!ROBERT-@1PARTICIPA# Well , how are you ? @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Off-camera) We wanted to know how far will people go to sell a product , to get on television and , and get paid for it . @!ROBERT-@1PARTICIPA# Well , they would go very far . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Is there a point where you would have walked out and you said , ' No more , I ca n't say that . " @!ROBERT-@1PARTICIPA# No. @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Off-camera) What if it hurt someone watching the show ? What if they believe you and they go buy it and their hair falls out ? @!ROBERT-@1PARTICIPA# That 's the liability of the people manufacturing it , and that 's why they have insurance . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ their problem . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Off-camera) You 're just an actor . @!ROBERT-@1PARTICIPA# You 're just an actor . You have striptease dancers , they take off their clothes for money , right ? @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# ProPelage rejuvenate , regenerate , and reinvigorate your hair . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Okay . Agreeing to lie about a product 's ability to grow hair is one thing , but what if the requests get more outrageous ? @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# Tell me how the power of ProPelage is worth the risk of cancer . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) There must be a limit to how far people will go to sell ProPelage Power . @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# Well , you know what , it makes me feel better than a man in the middle of the night , I tell you . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Or maybe not . When ' What Would You Do ? " returns . @!COMMERCIAL-BREAK-# @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# Hair today ... @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# Just overnight , my hair grew back . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# ... gone tomorrow . @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# Oh , my God , her hair 's falling out . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# Pitching an iffy product is one thing . But this ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ my hair 's not gon na fall out . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# I hope not . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# But will he do it ? And later , what just happened on the beach to cause this ? @!BILLY-@1BEACHGOER@# Come here . @!ERIC-@1ACTOR@2-# Whoa , whoa , whoa . @!BILLY-@1BEACHGOER@# Come here . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# When ' What Would You Do ? " returns after this from our ABC stations . @!COMMERCIAL-BREAK-# @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) In Las Vegas , 19 people have turned up to perform in our fake infomercial for ProPelage Power . So far , all but one of the participants have agreed to go on camera and endorse a product they have never used . @!THERO-@1PARTICIPAN# Thanks to ProPelage , this is four days worth of growth . @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# Just overnight , my hair grew back . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) But what if the lies the producer asks for get bolder ? At what point will people stop and refuse to go on ? @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# Right to the camera , tell them , ' If you 're not completely satisfied with ProPelage Power , you get a money back guarantee . " All right @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ satisfied , there 's a 100% money back guarantee . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# Keep grabbing the product as you 're saying that . And we do not actually guarantee the product , but say it anyway . Say we 100% guarantee the product . @!DANA-@1PARTICIPANT# We 100% guarantee this product . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) And Dana was not the only one willing to hawk the nonexistent money back guarantee . @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# Money back guarantee . @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# You 'll have to excuse me for a second . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Though we did start to see some people refusing to continue . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# It 'll be fine , Tim . We need you , we need you to work through this . @!TIM-@1PARTICIPANT@# That 's all right . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# Please ? @!TIM-@1PARTICIPANT@# No , no , that 's okay . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) And one person who left before recording anything . Most of the others kept going . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# I know we 're still waiting on FDA approval . We 've had some early testing incidents of cancer , and so ... @!THERO-@1PARTICIPAN# Wait , wait , wait . Repeat that one again ? @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ testing of the ProPelage product . @!THERO-@1PARTICIPAN# What do you mean by have cancer ? @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# They have acquired cancer ... @!THERO-@1PARTICIPAN# Oh , from the product . Okay . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# ... because of the product . So , something in the - we have a couple of carcinogens in there , but it 's in everything now . @!THERO-@1PARTICIPAN# Yeah , and actually , I read the , I read the thing . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# Yes . So , the warning is there . So , if we could somehow translate how it 's worth the risk , you know ? @!THERO-@1PARTICIPAN# I got you . I got it . @!THERO-@1PARTICIPAN# When I first used ProPelage Power and I started doing research on it , I heard that there was a slight chance that you may , you know , acquire cancer from using it . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# One in three . One in three chance . @!THERO-@1PARTICIPAN# And for me , my life was already over . And that one in three chance , that was two in three of a chance to live and have my life back . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And I would n't trade it , I would n't trade it again for , for anything . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# Fantastic . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Thero is not the only one willing to promote this carcinogenic product . That surprises us , but not our expert . @!AMY-CUDDY-@1ASSIST# If these people had known that when they came to work today , they 'd be asked to endorse a product that caused cancer , they probably would n't have shown up for work . But of course , they did n't know that . They came and they complied with a , with a small request , and gradually , the request got bigger and bigger and bigger until they 're at the point where they 're being asked to do something that 's pretty outrageous . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Professor Cuddy believes that many of us would have done exactly the same thing . But what if the requests get really personal ? Will people risk harming themselves to sell ProPelage Power ? Meet Mike , a punk rocker from way back . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# @(Makes-noise). @!MIKE-@1PARTICIPANT# @(Singing) If you 're losing your hair @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that is fantastic . And if you could , what we like is get just a little action pour . Perfect . All right . Keep that little bit in your hand . It 's not burning , is it ? @!MIKE-@1PARTICIPANT# No. @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# Good . Now , if you could just take your hand and slick it through your hair into camera . If you can do both hands at once ... @!MIKE-@1PARTICIPANT# Both hands at once ? @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# That would be fantastic . @!MIKE-@1PARTICIPANT# My hair 's not gon na fall out ? @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# I hope not . @!MIKE-@1PARTICIPANT# I hope not , too . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# Bad for the commercial . @!MIKE-@1PARTICIPANT# ProPelage . Rock on . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# Fantastic . You committed to it . That 's what I wanted to see . @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# I feel the power of ProPelage. @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) We never thought they 'd put it into their own hair , but they sure did . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# Say , feel the ProPelage Power . @!THERO-@1PARTICIPAN# Feel the ProPelage Power . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# Last thing . We got a little sample right there in the cup . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sip , that 's all we need . It 's just to convince everyone that it 's not going to kill them . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Of course , it 's only a sports drink in the cup . @!MIKE-@1PARTICIPANT# Rock out with ProPelage. @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) We 're stunned that all these people would drink ProPelage , even though it could be dangerous . @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# That is the taste of hair growing in my mouth . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# Wonderful . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Over two days of shooting , most of the participants willingly performed all of the tasks they were asked to . Experts say that 's because we 're hardwired to follow authority . Only four out of the 19 people found a line they would not cross . Meet Kelly . She was willing to go part of the way . @!KELLY-@1PARTICIPAN# My hair has come back twice as strong . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) But when Paul asks her to promote the nonexistent money back guarantee , things change . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# Now , we do n't actually have 100% money back guarantee , but we are saying it in the infomercial @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ na go through or not . I was still ... @!KELLY-@1PARTICIPAN# Oh , I see . So , it 'll be endorsed later , is that what you 're trying to say ? @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# Maybe . @!KELLY-@1PARTICIPAN# Okay . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# We hope . It might not be , but if it 's not , we 're still gon na say it . @!KELLY-@1PARTICIPAN# What do you mean now ? I mean , do n't you think that 's gon na , like , false advertising ? Yeah , I honestly ca n't say that one . I , I can go to a certain point on this , but I honestly can not tell the customer and have myself be on television saying there 's a 100% money back guarantee when in fact there 's not . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) And then , there was Annette . @!ANNETTE-@1PARTICIP# Side effects , I do n't care . Just look at my luxurious hair . @!PAUL-MATTINGLY-@1A# To ProPelage and hair growth everywhere . @!ANNETTE-@1PARTICIP# To ProPelage and hair growth everywhere . @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# To ProPelage and hair growth everywhere . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) She enthusiastically @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Quinones. @!ANNETTE-@1PARTICIP# Hi . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Off-camera) And I 'm with ' What Would You Do ? " @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) When I sat down and talked with her afterward , she had a moment of clarity . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Off-camera) You gave a testimonial on camera for something you really never used , right ? @!ANNETTE-@1PARTICIP# Oh , it 's true . Yeah . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Off-camera) I mean , how do you explain it ? @!ANNETTE-@1PARTICIP# Acting is something that I 've always , you know , wanted to do . And I did n't plan on doing anything immoral or wrong just to get there . And apparently , I did . @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# Yeah . @!ANNETTE-@1PARTICIP# So , I learned that I should n't , I should always trust my instincts and that I should n't go along or do things just because I 'm getting paid or just to achieve something I want . I mean , there 's more honest ways to go around it . There 's honest ways to make money . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) A lesson for us all . @!PARTICIPANT-@1FEMA# ProPelage power . @!THERO-@1PARTICIPAN# ProPelage power @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's a smack down on the beach . @!BILLY-@1BEACHGOER@# Come here . @!ERIC-@1ACTOR@2-# Whoa , whoa , whoa . @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) But you wont believe what causes it . @!BILLY-@1BEACHGOER@# I 'll ( censored by network ) kill you , bro. @!JOHN-QUINONES-@1-A# @(Voiceover) When we come back . COMMERCIAL BREAK '

@@4031241 MR . DAVID GREGORY : But first , White House press secretary Robert Gibbs . Welcome to MEET THE PRESS . @!MR-ROBERT-GIBBS : David , thank you for having me. @!MR-GREGORY : A developing story I want to ask you about first ... @!MR-GIBBS : Mm-hmm . @!MR-GREGORY : ... is this swine flu outbreak that began in Mexico , has killed up to 68 people there . We have some images . This is what 's happening on the streets of Mexico City , authorities handing out masks to help stop the spread of this virus . This has hit the United States as well , at least three states where there are infections , thankfully no deaths yet . How serious is this ? @!MR-GIBBS : Well , serious enough to be a great concern to this White House and to this government . The president is being briefed regularly by Homeland Security officials . DHS , the Department of Homeland Security , Health and Human Services , the CDC , our Homeland Security Council in the White House are keeping the president up to date on this . We 're following it very closely . We @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ need to have in place in order to deal with any sort of emergency . But it is of concern to this White House and we 're taking ... @!MR-GREGORY : Are there preparations for vaccinations , mass vaccinations around the country ? @!MR-GIBBS : Well , I think the good news , David , is that over the course of the past several years one of the issues that then Senator Obama worked on was the possibility of what happened in this country if we saw an avian flu pandemic . That resulted in lots of vaccinations being bought , lots of antiviral drugs being purchased and distributed throughout the country in case they were needed . We 'll do a briefing a little bit later on at the White House to discuss some of the preparations that have been undertaken in order to deal with something like this . I think it 's important for the public to understand that we are taking proper precautions to address anything that happens . It 's not a time to panic , and I think that 's important to understand . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is being kept aware every few hours of the developments that are going on . @!MR-GREGORY : Let me turn to the issue of interrogation of terror suspects after 9/11 , what a lot of people are calling the torture debate . This administration decided to release legal memos authorizing these techniques from the Bush administration . And in light of that release , the president and top officials in the White House have made various statements , and I want to try to take you through these now . April 16th , the president says , " This is a time for reflection , not retribution , " in terms of what should happen next . Then several days later , chief of staff Rahm Emanuel in an interview says , " Those who devised policy , President Obama believes that they should not be prosecuted , and it 's not the place that we go . " You were asked where this all goes on Monday . The question was , " Why are Bush administration lawyers not being held accountable ? " You said , " The @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . " And then Tuesday the president again asked what should happen going forward now that these memos are out , and this is what he said . @(Videotape-Tuesday) @!PRES-OBAMA : With respect to those who formulated those legal decisions , I would say that that is going to be more of a decision for the attorney general within the parameters of various laws . @(End-videotape) @!MR-GREGORY : Why the shifting positions ? @!MR-GIBBS : Well , David , I do n't think the president has shifted his position . I think what the president said on the Thursday in which the memos were released , all the way through this , he 's been consistent and clear : those that followed the legal advice , the four corners of the legal advice in good faith , those people should not and will not be prosecuted . But the president , as you know , David , does n't determine who knowingly breaks the law or not . That 's set up and devised by the Justice Department and other lawyers and legal entities to decide those questions . The @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for reflection on where we 've been and not for retribution , and that we must look forward . I think the most important thing to understand in all of this debate , David , is the most important step that was taken in the first almost 100 days of this administration relating to this debate was for the president to ban , once and for all , the use of enhanced interrogation techniques by anybody involved in this government . @!MR-GREGORY : But this is about accountability at this stage and looking backward . I want to understand , the president is opening the door for criminal prosecution of Bush administration lawyers . @!MR-GIBBS : Well , but , David ... @!MR-GREGORY : Why , why is he doing that ? @!MR-GIBBS : But , David , let 's understand . The president does n't open or close the door on criminal prosecutions of anybody in this country , because the legal determination about who knowingly breaks the law in any instance is not one that 's made by a president of the United States . @!MR-GREGORY : I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I think it 's very important . This president campaigned very vehemently on the notion that the rule of law and that legal decisions should be made not by political figures , but by justice figures . Just as scientific decisions about our environment or global warming should n't be made by politicians , they should be made by scientists . @!MR-GREGORY : Does the president believe or suspect that Bush administration lawyers conspired to violate the anti-torture law ? @!MR-GIBBS : Well , I , I think that 's a determination that the lawyers are going to make , and they 're going to have to take a look at them . @!MR-GREGORY : There are those who say this is a president who 's playing politics . He is straddling this issue because he wants to appease his liberal activist base who very much wants accountability from the Bush years over this issue . @!MR-GIBBS : Well , I think what 's important for anybody to understand in this is that the , the -- we got to this point on these memos for one reason : there @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Department and many lawyers throughout the government felt was completely unwinnable . Given that , the president does believe strongly in transparency and believed that there was no legal basis for which to withhold these memos . That 's why they were released . @!MR-GREGORY : Is the view now that a congressional review , some kind of investigation should take place ? Is that the president 's view ? @!MR-GIBBS : Well , David , right now currently the Senate Intelligence Committee is undertaking a review of interrogation policies and a host of things , given the fact that they have security clearances that allow them to look at different documents . I think this administration believes strongly that if a review is to take place , the one that 's currently being done by the Intelligence Committee is the appropriate place for that . @!MR-GREGORY : Why is that enough , though ? Because those who want more accountability would say why a closed hearing in the Intelligence Committee ? Should n't there be moral accountability for these practices ? @!MR-GIBBS : Well , right . @!MR-GREGORY : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!MR-GIBBS : Well , I think the president had great fears that the debate that you 've seen happen in this town on each side of this issue , at the extremes , has -- that 's taken place would be what would envelop any commission that looked backward . That 's why his focus , David , the whole time is how we look forward in this country . @!MR-GREGORY : So keep it at the Intelligence Committee level , do n't do a bigger truth commission . @!MR-GIBBS : That 's the president 's view . @!MR-GREGORY : Should Democrats be investigated as to why they did n't take more actions to stop this when they were briefed about these practices ? @!MR-GIBBS : Well , again , I , I would leave the look backs and the reviews to the Intelligence Committee . @!MR-GREGORY : But you think it should be bipartisan , both Democrats and Republicans should be scrutinized ? @!MR-GIBBS : I think , I think that is why the Intelligence Committee is the proper location for this to happen . You 've got a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a way , I think and we hope , raises this above politics . That 's what 's truly important here . What are we doing , and what steps are we taking to keep this country safe and improve our image around the world ? @!MR-GREGORY : As you know , a big part of this debate is the question , do these techniques work ? Was valuable intelligence obtained as a result of what some call enhanced interrogation techniques , others call torture ? I want to show you two views , one from somebody who was actively involved and another one of the intelligence team members now working for President Obama . George Tenet wrote in his memoir , " At the Center of the Storm , " this : " The most aggressive interrogation techniques conducted by CIA personnel were applied only to a handful of the worst terrorists on the planet , including people who had planned the 9/11 attacks . ... Information from these interrogations helped disrupt plots aimed at locations in the U.S. , the U.K. , the Middle East , South Asia @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Dennis Blair , the national intelligence director for President Obama . This was a memo he wrote internally , and The New York Times reported it this way : " High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al-Qaeda organization that was attacking this country . " Do you doubt those conclusions ? @!MR-GIBBS : Well , David , I , I , you know , I , I do n't think you apparently have the slide where Admiral Blair , the director of national intelligence , says very clearly that , one , you ca n't determine whether any information gotten from any suspect , good or bad , could n't also be gotten by another method . The , the totality of the use of these methods became a rallying cry and a recruitment tool for the very same people that wanted to do us harm , and that in his opinion and the opinion of both many in the administration to deal with national security as well as many that work outside of our administration , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and the recruitment tool that they provided al-Qaeda , the notion that you ca n't determine the efficacy of these programs and that you might well have easily gotten any of the information procured this way in a different mean , that it actually makes our country less safe . @!MR-GREGORY : I want to stop you on one point . @!MR-GIBBS : And that it makes ... @!MR-GREGORY : You say you ca n't determine efficacy of these programs . As you know , Vice President Cheney and others have said this is not a subjective question , the CIA has additional memos indicating what was gained from these practices . And I know there 's a process under way to review whether those additional memos should be released . @!MR-GIBBS : Right . @!MR-GREGORY : Is it the president 's view that they should be released ? @!MR-GIBBS : The president is , and the administration have taken the free -- the request to declassify these memos that Vice President Cheney made March 31st . They 're in the very same process that if somebody else determined that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ at by the administration . They 'll be examined by the director of central intelligence , the national security adviser . It 's a process that takes about three weeks . But I ... @!MR-GREGORY : But what does he want ? Because it seems to me you could really put this to rest if you ... @!MR-GIBBS : Well ... @!MR-GREGORY : ... released what they claim they found . @!MR-GIBBS : Look , I , I think the president , as you know , is a big believer in transparency . I think one of the things that will have to be examined , David , is whether there are additional memos that have to be released that give a broader picture of what 's gone on in enhanced interrogation techniques . There have been many op-eds , an op-ed written by the executive director of the 9/11 Commission in The New York Times on Friday which cast a lot of doubt on whether or not these techniques worked . And this -- these were all the decisions that the president had to make in , in weighing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!MR-GIBBS : But the president and his team and , as I said , many people that work outside of this administration but understand national security and how to keep our country safe , have said quite clearly that the use of these techniques was a rallying cry for the very same people that wanted to kill us , that wanted to do us harm . It made us less safe . It made us more susceptible . And that the president has undertaken very specific actions , one , to end these enhanced interrogation techniques and improve our image around the world so that we can pursue our national interest . @!MR-GREGORY : You 're saying unequivocally that under President Obama none of these techniques would have been pursued . @!MR-GIBBS : The , the president , on the first full day of his administration , signed an executive order that banned the use of enhanced interrogation techniques . @!MR-GREGORY : And at the time he would have done something differently , he would not have done the same things ? @!MR-GIBBS : Well , I , I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in 2002 . But I think the president believes very clearly , believed in 2002 and believes in 2009 ... @!MR-GREGORY : Right . @!MR-GIBBS : ... that our country does n't have to choose between keeping our people safe and the values that make us America ; that there are things that this country just simply does n't do , David . We do n't step over that line . That 's what this president firmly believes , because he understands that we can both protect our values and keep the men and women of our country and the men and women in uniform safe . Another thing I would mention that I 've heard General Jones , our national security adviser , and others say in meetings , that it is difficult to keep the men and women in uniform defending our country safe if -- because of the use of these enhanced interrogation methods . @!MR-GREGORY : Let me ask you about 100 days . This is a marker that the media pays a lot of attention to , and certainly within the administration you look at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the president think or want Americans to judge him ? Based on what ? @!MR-GIBBS : I think in all honesty , David , he would want the American people to spend a good eight or 10 seconds reflecting on those 100 days but understand , as I know many of them do , they 're not grading us at what we did on the 23rd or 29th or 35th day , but what are we doing and what is the president of the United States doing each and every day to make the American people safer , to improve our economy , to stabilize our financial system , to make their lives a little bit better , help send their kids to college . I think the American people understand that this is , as many in our administration have described , a little bit of a Hallmark holiday . But we 're focused not on what might have happened in the first 100 days , but what has to happen to lay that foundation for long-term economic growth and moving our country forward . @!MR-GREGORY : And before @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as press secretary , the president 's spokesman , the face of the White House . I 've covered a few press secretaries , and you have your own distinct style , particularly when it comes to calling out the president 's critics . And you did that when CNBC 's Rick Santelli was -- offered a very high energy critique of the president 's housing plan . Let 's have a look at that . @(Videotape-Februar) @!MR-GIBBS : I would encourage him to read the president 's plan and understand that it will help millions of people , many of whom he knows . I 'd be more than happy to have him come here and read it . I 'd be happy to buy him a cup of coffee , decaf . Let me do this , too . This is a copy of the president 's home affordability plan . It 's available on the White House Web site . And I would encourage him , download it , hit print and begin to read it . @(End-videotape) @!MR-GREGORY : Your colleagues would say you have a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this job and what do you find challenging about it ? @!MR-GIBBS : Well , first of all , David , let me say this is the funnest , most rewarding job that I 've ever had , and it may well be the funnest and most rewarding job that I ever have . It is a lot of work each and every day . You spend hours reading each morning to get ready to answer questions on any number of topics . David , the easy days are when you know that one topic is going to dominate the entire briefing . It 's easier to get prepared . It 's the days that there are 10 or 15 subjects that you know people around the room are going to be interested in . It 's important to have access to and talk regularly with the president of the United States . I 'm asked each and every day what he thinks , and I have to have a good line of communication with him and other senior advisers in the White House to understand the decision-making process and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the most fun I 've ever had , it truly is . Sometimes I may have a little bit too much caffeine , but it 's a , it 's a great job . I , I would n't trade it for anything . @!MR-GREGORY : As they say in the press room , no more questions . Robert Gibbs , thank you very much . @!MR-GIBBS : Thanks , David . @!MR-GREGORY : Coming next , our exclusive interview with His Majesty King Abdullah of Jordan on the Middle East peace , Iran , terrorism and the debate over torture . Plus , our roundtable on the Obama administration 's first 100 days with presidential historian Doris Kearns Goodwin and editor of Newsweek magazine , Jon Meacham , here only on MEET THE PRESS . @(Announcements) @!MR-GREGORY : King Abdullah of Jordan , plus our roundtable with Jon Meacham and Doris Kearns Goodwin after this brief commercial break . '

@@4031441 ANNOUNCER : Three , two , one -- Beck ! @!GLENN-BECK-HOST : Welcome ! Welcome to THE GLENN @!BECK PROGRAM . Tonight , the president has fired an inspector general . Hmm . Why ? Well , we do know that the inspector general started to investigate one of the president 's friends . Connected ? We 're going to talk to that inspector general live in just a few minutes . Also , $134 billion in a suitcase , and nobody is talking about this . Why is that ? We 'll explain that . And , common sense solutions to the world 's problems . If you believe this country is great but the government is like a Frankenstein monster ? Bring out the monster ! Grab your torch and come , follow me ! @(MUSIC) @!BECK : That Glenn Beck -- I 'll tell you , that Glenn Beck , he is inciting riots . Did you hear him ? He was saying , " Grab your torches ! " Hello , America . The Obama administration is pitching government-run health care -- oh , it will be perfect -- to cover 46 million uninsured Americans @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , some members of his own party -- you know , just regular old folk . Tonight , here is the One Thing : The president is going to give you a lot of malarkey . He 's going to give you the headline , but to understand what this plan is really about , you need to go behind the scenes , and listen to what these arrogant people have been saying now for years on what the real plan is . A friend of mine sent a video from verumserum.com , and I went -- I brought it in this morning and I said , " You 've got to see this . " We checked out all the sources . It checks out . We added some new things to Verum Serum 's great idea . Watch this . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!PRES-BARACK-OBAMA , : I happened to be a proponent of a single-payer universal health care plan . @(APPLAUSE) @!OBAMA- : But as all of you know , we may not get there immediately . Because first , we have to take back the White House and we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 've said is , let 's set up a system where if you already have health care through your employer and you 're happy with it , you do n't have to change doctors , you do n't have to change plans -- nothing changes . If you do n't have health care or you 're highly unsatisfied with your health care , then let 's give you choices , let 's give you options , including a public plan that you could enroll in and sign up for -- that 's been my proposal . @!KATHLEEN-SEBELIUS , : What I 'm a believer in , and certainly the president is a believer in , is that competition often is a very healthy component of any market situation . So , in the design of a health insurance exchange -- which is really what we 're talking about and what the president discusses -- a choice of a variety of options is often critical . @!DR-JACOB-HACKER-N : So , what I 'm arguing for is a system in which both public and private plans -- with their unique strengths and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ so that all Americans -- not just the elderly or the poor -- have access to the distinctive strength of a public health insurance plan as well as the strengths of private plans . @!REP-JAN-SCHAKOWSKY : And next to me was a guy from the insurance company who then argued against the public health insurance option , saying it would n't let private insurance compete ; that a public option will put the private insurance industry out of business and -- @(CHEERS) @!SCHAKOWSKY : My single-payer friends , he was right ! The man was right . @!HACKER : Someone once said to me , this is a Trojan Horse for single- payer , and I said , " Well , it 's not a Trojan Horse , right ? It 's just right there . " I 'm telling you , we 're going to get there over time , slowly , but we 'll move away from reliance on employment-based health insurance , as we should , but we 'll do it in a way that we 're not going to frighten people into thinking they are going @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ give them a choice of public and private insurance when their pool , and we 're going to let them keep their private employment-based insurance if their employer continues to provide that . @!SCHAKOWSKY : This is not a principled fight . This is a fight about strategy for getting there and I believe we will . @!OBAMA- : As Congress moves forward on health care legislation in the coming weeks , there are going to be different ideas and disagreements about how to achieve this goal . I welcome all ideas ; we 've got to have a good debate . What I will not welcome , I will not accept , is endless delays or a denial that reform needs to happen . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!BECK : You know , I have told you , for a while now , that this is -- I mean , did you notice some of the names involved here , especially the Tides Foundation . Tides Foundation -- gee , oh , we know them , because they bailed out ACORN . There are people and forces behind some of these things @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not telling you the truth -- I 'm sorry . We 're not listening to the truth . They are telling us , and you just saw what 's coming our way . @!Dr-Brian-McDonough# @!DR-BRIAN-MCDONOUGH : What you just saw was an argument being laid out designed to tell people there could be a one-payer system , but that it could happen drastically over time . In other words , slowly but surely get the insurance companies out of the picture , maybe the little ones first and then the bigger ones . @!BECK : Right . And that happens because like -- for instance , here in New York , it is almost impossible to be able to be a company and stay in business with the way they have rigged the insurance system here in New York City . @!MCDONOUGH : And one of the problems you are going to get is , if employers have to pay into the insurance and employees have to pay in for insurance , if they 're taxed or in some other form . @!BECK : Sure . @!MCDONOUGH : . they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to do this , it 's getting too expensive , " and they will either bail out and they 'll be in another system . And , you know , the government can kind of wait around with their system forever until it takes over . @!BECK : I 'm small businessman and I run a company , and we take care of our employees , and we pay 100 percent of their medical insurance . The insurance plan that we have is the best in the state . We -- our insurance broker said , " You are the only company still in the state of New York still offering this to your employees . " And I said to him , " We 'll do it as long as we can . " But I know there are companies who want to provide it but they ca n't do it anymore , and now Obama is saying that companies , like mine , or other people 's companies , they 'll get taxed because their plan is too good . We 're going towards a sea of mediocrity. @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is you want fair competition , but in addition , we ca n't lose the important issue . The important issue is providing early care , preventive care , getting people access to care initially . And that is n't necessarily insurance-driven or government-driven . That 's getting people access to care so you do n't spend tens of thousands of dollars at the end . You help people out early . That 's what care is all about . @!BECK : I was -- I was amazed at how Sebelius said , " Often competition is important . " Can you think of a time when competition is not important in America ? @!MCDONOUGH : I mean , it 's the whole principle , competition is good . And with competition , usually , things get better , and if you allow the competition to occur , it should get better . @!BECK : OK . Let me -- let me play something here . Could you play the piece of Barack Obama today talking about General Motors and Chrysler , comparing this ? Do we have that ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ General Motors and Chrysler into trouble in recent decades were the huge costs they racked up providing health care for their workers , costs that made them less profitable and less competitive with automakers around the world . If we do not fix our health care system , America may go the way of G.M. -- paying more , getting less and going broke . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!BECK : This is -- this is amazing to me , that he wants to fix health care . It 's not the unions . The unions , they got their share . Everybody is fine . Nothing happened there . It 's the healthcare problem that caused G.M. to go down . @!MCDONOUGH : Well , and one of the concerns I have is this need to do it immediately . I think time is good . If you 're looking at something that has so much money and there is so much at stake in our nation 's health care , and there is nothing more important in my life and physicians , and all our lives as human beings living on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . We do n't have to rush it through . This is n't a stimulus package . We should do it over time and look at all the options . @!BECK : He 's not going to . He 's not going to . Thank you very much . I appreciate it . All right . I want to show this to the members of the press corps that might be watching right now . It 's called the Pulitzer Prize . People like you at the " New York Times " could win one . I 'll show you how . I want to tell you about a story that is coming out of Washington that you probably have n't heard anywhere . Byron York , he is the chief political correspondent for " The Washington Examiner " -- is here to explain . Byron , can you tell me what happened on Thursday night in Washington ? @!BYRON-YORK-WASHIN : It was a very strange event . There are officials called inspectors general at all the federal agencies . And their job is to investigate allegations of stolen money @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Because they do what they do , they often run afoul and irritate their bosses or politically appointed . They sometimes irritate the White House . So , because of all that , Congress gave them special job protections . There was a law passed last year that said , if the president wants to fire an inspector general , he has to give Congress 30 days notice and he has to tell them why he is doing it . What happened last -- @!BECK : Wait , wait . I want to make sure I have that law . That 's a new law ? @!YORK : Well , you know , it was passed in 2008 , and one of its cosponsors was , as a matter of fact , Senator Barack Obama. @!BECK : Oh , wow . OK. @!YORK : What happened -- @!BECK : So , wait , what -- what does it say again ? Thirty days notice and you have to let Congress -- @!YORK : Thirty days notice and cause . He has to give Congress the reason why he is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , that sounds like a good plan . You do n't want anybody to intimidate the inspectors general . You want to be able to make sure -- @!YORK : Exactly . You want -- you want to protect them from political retribution . @!BECK : Sure . @!YORK : So , you 've heard of the AmeriCorps program , which is the big national service program , just got a huge tripling and a huge $5.7 billion bill a couple of months ago . There is the inspector general for the AmeriCorps program . And he got a phone call last Wednesday evening and it was from the White House Counsel 's office . And the White House Counsel 's office told him that he had one hour to either resign or be fired . Now , he is an inspector general , covered by all these protections , and they told him you got one hour to resign or you 're out . @!BECK : Did he resign ? @!YORK : He did not . He refused , and what happened was the next day , Congress -- @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this inspector general but he did n't give a reason . He sort of -- the president sort of suggested there might be a reason . And what we know right now is that this inspector general did a rather controversial investigation of a friend and political supporter of the president , a man named Kevin Johnson , former NBA star who is now the mayor of Sacramento , California . And before he was mayor , Johnson had a non- profit group for children called St. HOPE , and there were allegations that Johnson had misused thousands and thousands of dollars in federal AmeriCorps grants . And the inspector general whose name is Gerald Walpin investigated and found out that it was true -- that Johnson had used this money to have AmeriCorps employees wash his car and run personal errands for him and all sorts of stuff . So , Johnson did an investigation -- excuse me , Gerald Walpin , the inspector general , did an investigation and confirmed all of these things . And his report made a number of people high up in the organization @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of Johnson , right ? @!YORK : He is , indeed . Johnson is a supporter of the president and has made jokes about , you know , playing basketball with the president . Of course , Johnson was a big NBA star . @!BECK : You know , I 'll tell you , Byron , thank you , great reporting in " The Washington Examiner . " And hang around , because I actually want you to further this story for us tomorrow . I wish I had a chance to -- oh , my gosh , I do have a chance , to talk to the guy who was terminated . Gerald Walpin is with us now . How are you , sir ? @!GERALD-WALPIN-FMR : I am fine . Thank you , and glad to be here . @!BECK : OK . I read this story . You were in your car . You get a phone call from the White House . @!WALPIN : Yes . @!BECK : Any idea that they were going to ask you to resign ? @!WALPIN : No , because I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ House had called me already three , four times already in the last two weeks because I happened to be -- you might disagree with this -- a supporter of Sonia Sotomayor , even though I 'm conservative . @!BECK : OK. @!WALPIN : And they had asked me for help on that and to support her , and I was doing that . So , I thought this was the same phone call . @!BECK : OK . And you -- you are a conservative . @!WALPIN : Yes . @!BECK : But you 're not -- I mean , obviously , you 're endorsing Sotomayor , so you 're -- you know , you 're an open-minded guy , and you have gone after Republicans in the past ? @!WALPIN : Oh , yes , I have . @!BECK : Who have you gone after ? @!WALPIN : Well , I prosecuted Roy Cohn , for example . I was also disclosed as the person responsible for the indictments against Nixon 's cabinet members Mitchell and Stans. @!BECK : So , you 're not a -- you 're @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : Well , I believe when I 'm doing my work , I call the cards as they come out . @!BECK : OK . So , gosh , he has n't given you a reason on why you have been terminated . @!WALPIN : No. @!BECK : I have read the letter . It does n't -- it just does -- it says it just basically that he does n't have faith in you . @!WALPIN : Well , that 's a conclusion . That 's not a reason . @!BECK : Now , you not only went after one of his good friends , Kevin Johnson , but you 're after going after CUNY , which is City University of New York . @!WALPIN : Which is a good university -- and , in fact , I 'm an alumnus of it -- and is doing a good job in getting teachers . But the problem is , the AmeriCorps people have put almost $80 million into that program , even though the teachers at CUNY agree to be teachers before they 're even told that there is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : So , your job , as I understand it , is to track down money that is being wasted or is being misused. @!WALPIN : Exactly . @!BECK : My tax dollars , Erin 's tax dollars , everyone 's tax dollars . @!WALPIN : That is correct . The AmeriCorps program and the other agency programs and services I believe are great as long as they are properly managed and the money is not abused or misused. @!BECK : Why do you think this is happening ? @!WALPIN : I can only say that I became a thorn in the side of someone , and because I was doing my job and I was fired for doing my job . And by the way , the investigation , for example , of Johnson , was started by the agency itself . AmeriCorps management called us and asked us to investigate reports they had heard that there was wrongdoing , and we . @!BECK : Were you ever pressured to stop it ? @!WALPIN : No. @!BECK : Were you ever . @!WALPIN : No. @!BECK : Did anybody @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : The only thing -- the only thing that had came up was after Johnson was elected mayor , after the stimulus money came in , there was great media and political pressure to get him off the hook and get his suspension lifted . @!BECK : This happened on Thursday . Do you remember the case when . @!WALPIN : Wednesday night . @!BECK : Wednesday night . Do you remember the case when George Bush fired those attorneys which he had the right to do ? @!WALPIN : They were serving at his . @!BECK : At his discretion . @!WALPIN : . discretion . @!BECK : Yes . You are not serving at the president 's discretion . @!WALPIN : Only he can -- under the statute which is intended to protect the independence of inspector generals , I could be terminated only if he gives 30 days advance notice and gives the reason for it to Congress . @!BECK : Got it . So , it 's all open and everybody knows . @!WALPIN : That 's correct . @!BECK : Right . OK . That @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!BECK : Because if somebody does n't -- if somebody does n't -- if somebody can put pressure on you , well , then , you 're no good to anybody . @!WALPIN : That is correct . @!BECK : OK . So . @!WALPIN : And by the way , the fact that pressure was placed on me and that I was terminated is going to have a chilling effect on all the other inspectors general . @!BECK : Why do you say that ? @!WALPIN : Because they know that if they do something wrong to somebody who is liked by somebody else or for whatever reason , they can be terminated , too . @!BECK : Are you familiar with RAT , the new thing under the stimulus package ? Is Byron still on with us ? Byron ? @!YORK : Yes , here I am ! @!BECK : Can you explain RAT -- the thing tucked into the stimulus package that no one wants to claim now ? @!YORK : This is a Recovery Accountability and Transparency board . And , you know , one of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ bill did was promised it would all be transparent and there would be a lot of accountability . So , they created this new board . The problem was the board was given the power to tell inspectors general to conduct an investigation or probably , more importantly , to not conduct investigations . Senator Charles Grassley , who is the Republican senator who is kind of a guardian angel of inspectors general got very concerned about that and made some noise about it , but could n't stop it from being in the bill . So , there is possibly another threat to the independence of inspectors general . @!BECK : What do you think about that ? @!WALPIN : I now know what you were talking about , and that 's a horrible provision in the statute . @!BECK : Why would they do it ? @!WALPIN : Why ? I think , in view of the fact that they terminated me , that they do n't want inspectors generals doing the job that they were hired to do -- which is to objectively look at the facts @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!BECK : How long you been in government ? @!WALPIN : On this stint ? Just 2 1/2 years . @!BECK : How long total ? I mean , you . @!WALPIN : Oh , I 've been -- I was a prosecutor in the U.S. Attorneys Office in New York , where , as I said , I prosecuted Roy Cohn , and I -- so , I have had over 10 years of government service , but I was in private practice when President Bush 's White House called me. @!BECK : Have you seen anything like this before ? @!WALPIN : No . This is shocking . I know of no other inspector general who has been terminated on this method , and the call to me -- look , as you can tell , I 'm not a young guy , and I did n't need this . But I felt that I could n't look myself in the mirror if I just resigned to this pressure . @!BECK : What 's your next step ? @!WALPIN : Oh , I 'm considering all alternatives @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the public know , because as Franklin Roosevelt said , the great -- sunshine is the greatest . @!BECK : Yes . @!WALPIN : What was the word ? @!BECK : I know what you 're saying . @!WALPIN : Disinfectant ! @!BECK : Yes . @!WALPIN : I want the public to know and I want other inspectors general to know that they can stand up , too . @!BECK : Thank you , sir . @!WALPIN : Thank you . @!BECK : We will follow this story and we 'll have more on this tomorrow . There are really nasty things going on , and sunshine . And again -- hey , " New York Times , want to know why you 're dying on the vine ? Because you 're blaming Bill O'Reilly for crazy people shooting people . Here -- you want this ? This is a Pulitzer Prize . Why do n't you investigate what 's going on in Washington ? It 's everywhere . Now , two men caught carrying $134 billion in U.S. bonds . They might be fake , which would be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be worse . I 'll explain , and ask why no one is covering it . @!BECK : Well , I have been -- today 's show , there is a lot of weird stuff going on . One of them I want to tell you about that nobody is talking about is : China is buying up hard assets . I 've been telling you that for a while . They 're divesting from the United States and the dollar . Well , now , there 's even more signs that China is trying to pour concrete to protect itself in case the dollar would collapse . According to a congressman from Illinois , Kirk , China is planning to buy another $80 billion worth of gold , which at today 's prices would nearly triple its reserves . Additionally , China is working on adding another giant pipeline from Russia , and in the meantime , they have increased their monthly oil supply by about 5 percent . Now , this is another story that shows that we are vulnerable to something . But listen to this one @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? There is a fake bond scam -- we think -- two middle-aged Japanese men reportedly caught trying to cross from Italy into Switzerland with $134 billion in bonds -- $134 billion , remember that number . It presents two possibilities and both are really bad . Either they 're fake which means people are trying to flood the market with fake cash , and it 's probably a country doing that , because remember , bonds are the same as cash , or worse , it 's real , and some country , some sovereign fund is trying to quietly dump their reserves . It would have to be a country if they 're real , because nobody has this much money . That is 1 percent of our GDP . With me now is Joe Weisenthal . He is the editor of BusinessInsider.com . Joe , are you surprised this is n't everywhere ? @!JOE-WEISENTHAL-ED : I 'm stunned . It 's a -- it 's a really interesting story , either of the scenarios you suggest , real or fake . I just wish there were more @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ about it or some of the mainstream press . @!BECK : Well , we just . @!WEISENTHAL : . would go after them for some answers . @!BECK : We just got " no comment " from the Treasury Department . They said , " We have received your question about U.S. bonds -- we 've received your question about U.S. bonds seized at the Italian border . These bonds are evidence in an ongoing investigation . We will not be able to comment at this time . Sorry we ca n't be of more help . U.S. Treasury . " One hundred thirty-four billion dollars of bonds . Can we put the chart up on which countries have that much ? Here are the top foreign holders of U.S. treasuries : China , $763 billion ; Japan , $685 billion ; United kingdom , $152 billion ; Russia $137 billion ; the value of the smuggled bonds , $134 billion . That 's gigantic sums of money . @!WEISENTHAL : Either way , it 's an incredible scale , whether it 's a government dumping some of their holdings @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ unlike anything we 've ever seen , not just in size but also sophistication . The fact that it 's this long before they can just dismiss them saying as being fake or say these are real . @!BECK : Right . So , who would have the technology to fake that ? Would that be North Korea . @!WEISENTHAL : I would imagine any government that prints currency could probably procure a printer , you know , extremely high quality printer . @!BECK : Right . So , this would be a -- you think only possibly a government would be able to do this ? @!WEISENTHAL : It would be the kind of technology that you would expect only a government to have . @!BECK : OK . And if they are real , this is -- this is -- what ? @!WEISENTHAL : Every day the market wakes up to some news that someone in Russia or China or Japan making some comment on the dollar , either they 're getting nervous about holding it , or some days they come out and say they 're confident @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ edge in this question , will foreign governments keep buying our debt ? So , if it is real and if there is a foreign government that sort of secretly trying to dump some of their dollar holdings , that 's a big story , that really tips the story in one direction . @!BECK : Apparently , these bonds are old and they come from the ' 50s and the ' 60s. @!WEISENTHAL : Well , that 's one of the questions that makes people questions the veracity . These types of bonds , Kennedy bonds , supposedly would be issued in the ' 50s or ' 60s . The reason that there were -- I mean , $500 million face value bonds , it 's almost hard to believe that we ever issued those . Apparently , the reason was , you know , there are bear bonds , you have to send in a coupon and collect the money . Well , if you 're borrowing a lot of money , you want to have huge coupons , because otherwise it 's just too much of a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!WEISENTHAL : There were some reports that said the date on the bond was from 1934 . That would lend credence to the idea that it 's some sort of counterfeit fraud operation . @!BECK : OK . Thank you very much . We 'll follow this , because , one way or another , it 's not good . Somebody is trying to print massive amounts of our money and -- which would be -- well , our Fed is doing it ; our treasury is doing it , why not everybody ? And the other is : people are starting to tire of our nonsense here . And if you 're tired of the nonsense and you 're ready for some common sense , tomorrow is your day . " The Glenn Beck 's Common Sense : The Case Against an Out-of-Control Government " is available . You can order it today in time for Father 's Day this Sunday . It is in bookstores , most of the bookstores have it tonight , but it 's officially in bookstores tomorrow . Speaking of common sense , how @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Now , how does the government want to save money on electricity ? Oh , you 'll never guess . Next . @!BECK : Hello , America . Here is tonight 's hot list - common sense solutions to stories the mainstream media is not really doing their job on . The House of Representatives researching new ways to save electricity and save money . They have proposed demonstration projects run by the House of Representatives . It will cost $25 million . Here 's one way to save money . Do n't spend $25 million on demonstration projects . Another ? Click . Turn the lights off when you 're not using them . My mother used to say that , " Turn these lights off ! " It 's just that simple . Deadly protests in the streets of Iran after the re-election of President Ahmadinejad . Again , I 'm just looking at that - no , those are the L.A. riots . No , can we put the - it 's the wrong video . We were rioting because , you know , we won a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ riot and set things on fire . But now charges of election fraud by the reform candidate - you know , causing some problems in Iran . Iran 's supreme leader , Ayatollah Ali Khamenei , has ordered an investigation , which is great , because , really , I have been waiting for somebody to say this on television all weekend - none of this matters . None of it . Iran is a theocracy . It means it is run by a group of unelected people called the guardian council . These are mullahs . These are people - look , sometimes you ca n't see the beam in your own eye . And so you look at the little sliver in somebody else 's eye . That 's what is happening here . When you watch , this we have been fascinated , saying , " Oh , my gosh ! Look at these people . " And people on television are starting to say , " Oh , my gosh . Look at the people who are so frustrated with the status quo . They 're @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ got a reformer here . " @!No-They-are-taking# And there is really no difference between the two parties . It is almost what is happening in Iran . You know , they might - one might be for women 's rights and the other is not for women 's rights . But they both answer to the mullahs . They 're not going to make any real big difference . They are a theocracy . We are being run on both sides of the aisle by these gigantic progressives . Look at the last election here in America . Was it really that much difference between John McCain and Barack Obama ? I mean , did you hear what - what 's his name - Bill Maher said this weekend on Friday on his show ? What really is the difference between Barack Obama and George W. Bush ? Not direction , only speed . We 've taken to the streets here , though . We 're doing it peacefully , except for the Lakers game . Tea parties all across the country . Tea parties continue and common sense tells @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , did you catch the " New York Times " this weekend ? Yes . Anyway , they published the third - count it , three - the third op ed in the " Times " blaming Bill O'Reilly and me , or FOX NEWS in general , of spreading hate and inspiring people like the killer of Dr. Tiller in Kansas . Also , we were the inspiration , apparently , for the guy at the Holocaust Museum last week . You know , there are groups out there that preach hate and violence and racial violence . There are groups so fed up they want to secede from the union . We are n't one of them . The " Times " goes after me and FOX NEWS . But was it ESPN that caused the riots there in Los Angeles ? Or were the pinheads that just started things on fire ? Common sense tells you that the " New York Times " is setting things up . They are laying the groundwork so when something goes wrong , like they always do , they will have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ O'Reilly or anybody else that they would like to silence . Speaking of the " New York Times , " " Politico " reports on the love affair between the Obama administration and the dinosaur called the " New York Times . " They point to the recent " Times " magazine report on healthcare . The reporter had seven - seven sit-down interviews . I mean , that 's almost - I mean , we have almost half of the op eds blaming us for bad things . They had seven interviews with the administration . By the way , that is twice the amount that they had in seven years covering the Bush administration . My concern is the " Times ' " obsession with Obama . Have you ever seen the definition of a cult ? Check it out . I saw it this weekend . Webster 's Dictionary : " Cult - a great devotion to a person , idea , object , movement or work , especially such devotion regarded as literary or intellectual fad . " Sound familiar ? The cult corps , not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ list . Politicians want to keep us divided on the left and the right . The media was supposed to be the watchdog , but they are n't doing it . With outlets like the " New York Times " becoming cult followers , they 're keeping us divided . And that 's the way politicians need us to be . No matter what you hear in the press , no matter what you hear going on in your TV , do n't believe it . Americans are coming together . We are not as divided as the boob tube would have you believe . We 're coming together , in fact , like never before . Proof ? Next . G. @!BECK : That 's the name of a book that comes out tomorrow . Here it is . It 's " Common Sense . " It was inspired by - I read Thomas Paine 's " Common Sense . " I reread it over the fall . And I 'll tell you a little bit more about it tomorrow . But a book I did n't want to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and then stuck my courage to the sticking places . Is n't that the line ? I would like you to pick it up tomorrow . There are a lot of things that I think nobody has said before . It is the case of an out-of-control government . Pick it up in bookstores everywhere . I 've been talking , you know , for a while now with the 9/12ers and I think people from both sides of the aisle feel the same way . Our government is out of control . It 's not Republicans saying this . It 's the Democrats , too . It 's just - when did we stop putting America first ? Our next guest agrees . Nancy Armstrong , disenfranchised Democrat who now calls herself a patriot . She has a blog called " MisplacedDemocrats.com . " Nancy , when did you become disenfranchised ? @!NANCY-ARMSTRONG-D : May 31st , 2008 . G. @!BECK : What happened on May 31st ? @!ARMSTRONG : It took me a lot - oh , that 's when I realized that the Democratic Party was no @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ What was it that happened ? @!ARMSTRONG : Well , it was just the whole election going along , you know . Basically , what happened when they went to the rules and bylaws committee for the Democratic Party , and I realized at that point that they did n't represent me any longer , that they had really turned me under the bus . And you know what ? I threw them back . G. @!BECK : So you - @!ARMSTRONG : As a matter of fact , I have thrown all parties back . G. @!BECK : Good for you . @!ARMSTRONG : I do n't want to be labeled by anything anymore . I just want to be a patriot . G. @!BECK : Good for you . @!ARMSTRONG : It is what I spent 13 years doing when I served my country and that 's what I want to continue doing . G. @!BECK : So you 're going to confuse the mainstream media so much right now because you 're a Democrat . You campaigned , actually - or did n't you , for Hillary @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as a volunteer in three states . The last state was Montana where I actually worked for her campaign . I was unpaid volunteer basically or unpaid worker . And I ran the Veterans for Hillary tour through 16 cities in Montana . G. @!BECK : OK . But you also now - you have started a tea party . You did a tea party . @!ARMSTRONG : Yes , sir , I did . Two of them in Wichita . G. @!BECK : But I thought - did you get a check from Karl Rove ? I thought that was only Republicans doing that . @!ARMSTRONG : No , I did it myself . And I whipped up the frenzy in Wichita and the first tea party was 125 people . At the second tea party , it was more than 2,000 . G. @!BECK : What is it that the main - @!ARMSTRONG : I 'm sorry . I think I whipped a little - go ahead . G. @!BECK : What is it the mainstream is missing because they are trying to paint anybody who goes to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ or racists . Are you a racist ? Do you hate black people ? @!ARMSTRONG : Heavens , no . G. @!BECK : OK. @!ARMSTRONG : No . G. @!BECK : Are you a terrorist of some sort ? Are you a danger to your country ? @!ARMSTRONG : Heavens , no . I grew up in the liberal state of Massachusetts and my father was a Democrat . G. @!BECK : OK. @!ARMSTRONG : I do n't think that you could - G. @!BECK : What is it that the mainstream - can you summarize what is it that the mainstream media just ca n't get their arms around ? Who are you ? Who are the people that do these things ? @!ARMSTRONG : Who are the people that do these things ? They 're just average everyday people . A lot of my friends are disenfranchised Democrats and have attended tea parties and will continue to attend tea parties . And the mainstream media just does not want to accept the fact , and they have n't wanted to accept the fact that there are disenfranchised Democrats @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ all supposed to be happy and marching behind the Democratic Party . G. @!BECK : I know . What I would like to do is see more of us march just behind our country . Thank you very much , Nancy . Now , on the other side , Republicans . There is another guy who thinks the Republicans stink on ice . And what he says he thinks you can do on the Fourth of July that maybe will bring us all together . That 's next . G. @!BECK : All right . A few minutes ago , I showed you a disenfranchised Democrat that started a tea party . And I ca n't see that on the mainstream any place else . Now , I 've got a disenfranchised Republican who says he is tired of the Republican Party . His name is Patrick Beck - no relation . He 's a chiropractor from Arizona . No relation , right ? PATRICK @!BECK , DISENFRANCHISED REPUBLICAN : No relation . I 'm not going to ask you for any money . G. @!BECK : I was going @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ P. @!BECK : Not anytime soon . G. @!BECK : OK . So , Patrick , you are no longer a Republican . When did this happen to you ? P. @!BECK : Basically , it happened when the financial industry kind of took a downturn . And I started to see the bailouts coming . I realized this is not the road of a conservative . And there is no longer represents what is going on . G. @!BECK : OK . So you 're doing something on July 4th . I have been asking when are people going to take to the streets ? When are they going to the Capitol ? When are they going to let the people hear them ? You 've got something on July 4th . Explain . P. @!BECK : On July 4th , I had a tea party in my hometown and it worked rather well . I , personally - I do n't feel like the rah-rah routine is honestly going to do us any good . Showing up and doing the " Hell , no . We wo n't @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And one of the things we did at the tea party in my hometown was we had signup sheets . Now , this was n't to some organization . It was n't to some group . The idea was that we need to get people together . And when we find a candidate that we can support , someone we believe in , then we call up these people . We let them know this candidate is going to be at such a place at such and such a time and you can come and meet him . You can talk to him if you like him . And if you believe what he says , then , fight for him . Then , you can work for him and actually get this person elected . And we had 320 people out of 400 people in my hometown sign up for that list . If we can do that on a national scale in Washington , D.C. with tens of hundreds of thousands of people , imagine what 's going to happen if we can get that many people behind @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ conservative or in this matter , just a constitutional candidate . G. @!BECK : So when is it ? P. @!BECK : It 's July 4th . It 's going to occur at the U.S. Capitol building . We 're actually going to start at McPherson Square which is a little north of the White House . And we 're going to , quote , unquote , march down to the Capitol building . We 're going to have several speakers and an opportunity for people to get together , figure out what 's wrong , get them motivated and then get them organized so we can actually get people in place to get things done . G. @!BECK : What did you think of the last lady we had on , Nancy Armstrong ? P. @!BECK : I think she is fantastic . She is welcome at our event , too . G. @!BECK : Yes . P. @!BECK : That 's a thing that a lot of people do n't get . This is n't a party thing . I have voted Republican in the past . But @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and he is from my state . G. @!BECK : Right . I do n't know about anybody else . I mean , my family has voted Democrat for years . I really do n't care - whoever has the right idea , whoever will put the country first and will put fiscal responsibility first . This is just madness . P. @!BECK : Yes . G. @!BECK : Anybody who does that , I do n't care what party you are from . I really do n't . All right . We appreciate it , Patrick . Thank you so much and best of luck . We 'll be right back in a minute . '

@@4031641 President Barack Obama moved Monday to remove limits on funding for embryonic stem cell research . Reports continue to emerge about the Obama teams troubles filling open positions at the Treasury Department and other agencies . Analysts and reporters update the story . @!GWEN-IFILL : Good evening . Im Gwen Ifill . On the NewsHour tonight : our lead story , the administration charts a new course on stem cell research ; we look at what happens next when government and science intersect ; then , the rest of the days news , including the latest economic developments ; " Blueprint America , " we continue our series on infrastructure , tonight , troubled mass transit ; and whos minding the store , the understaffed Obama administration . @(BREAK) @!GWEN-IFILL : President Obama cleared the way today for new government spending on scientific research using embryonic stem cells . In doing so , he overturned an 8-year-old ban on government financing for the research first imposed by President Bush . Betty Ann Bowser of our Health Unit has the lead story report . The unit is a partnership with the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation . @!BETTY-ANN-BOWSER- : President Obama @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . The move potentially clears the way for scientists to apply for federal money to do research on any embryonic stem cell lines . @!BARACK-OBAMA-Pres : We will also vigorously support scientists who pursue this research . @(APPLAUSE) And we will aim for America to lead the world in the discoveries it one day may yield . Medical miracles do not happen simply by accident . They result from painstaking and costly research , from years of lonely trial and error , much of which never bears fruit , and from a government willing to support that work . @!BETTY-ANN-BOWSER : In August 2001 , President George W. Bush allowed federal funding for embryonic stem cell research , but those funds were limited to just 21 stem cell lines that had already been developed . @!GEORGE-W-BUSH-For : Embryonic stem cell research is at the leading edge of a series of moral hazards . @!BETTY-ANN-BOWSER : The key moral issue for President Bush in making that decision : Early-stage embryos that are only a few days old must be destroyed to derive new embryonic cell lines . But scientists have argued @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ morph into specialized cells that could generate new tissues to replace ill or damaged ones in the human body . Today , Mr. Obama sided with those arguments , breaking with his predecessors policy . @!BARACK-OBAMA- : In recent years , when it comes to stem cell research , rather than furthering discovery , our government has forced what I believe is a false choice between sound science and moral values . In this case , I believe the two are not inconsistent . As a person of faith , I believe we are called to care for each other and work to ease human suffering . And many thoughtful and decent people are conflicted about or strongly oppose this research . And I understand their concerns , and I believe that we must respect their point of view . But after much discussion , debate and reflection , the proper course has become clear . The majority of Americans -- from across the political spectrum and from of all backgrounds and beliefs -- have come to a consensus that we should pursue this research , that the potential it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ oversight , the perils can be avoided . @!BETTY-ANN-BOWSER : Conservative thinkers and scientists have argued that theres another way to avoid those perils : using federal dollars for research on adult stem cells . Since they are found in developed tissues like bone marrow , embryos do not have to be destroyed . But the president said those alternatives should not limit federal research on embryonic cells . @!BARACK-OBAMA- : At this moment , the full promise of stem cell research remains unknown , and it should not be overstated . But scientists believe these tiny cells may have the potential to help us understand -- and possibly cure -- some of our most devastating diseases and conditions . @!BETTY-ANN-BOWSER : There are limits to todays executive order . It does not address a separate legislative ban , which forbids the use of federal money to do research on human embryos or to create new embryonic lines . To help determine how federal dollars should be allocated , the president gave the National Institutes of Health four months to develop new ethics guidelines for his executive order . Embryonic @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of New Jersey , said President Obamas executive order was a step in the wrong direction . @!REP-CHRIS-SMITH-@1 : Human-embryo-destroying stem cell research is not only unethical , unworkable and unreliable , it is now demonstrably unnecessary . Assertions that left over embryos are better off dead so that their stem cells can be derived is dehumanizing and cheapens human life . @!BETTY-ANN-BOWSER : The president also said todays decision fits into a larger approach his administration would take toward science . @!BARACK-OBAMA- : Lets be clear : Promoting science isnt just about providing resources ; its also about protecting free and open inquiry . Its about letting scientists like those who are here today do their jobs free from manipulation or coercion and listening to what they tell us , even when its inconvenient , especially when its inconvenient . It is about ensuring that scientific data is never distorted or concealed to serve a political agenda and that we make scientific decisions based on facts , not ideology . @!BETTY-ANN-BOWSER : The president signed a memorandum directing his Office of Science Policy to develop a strategy for what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!GWEN-IFILL : President Obama also ordered a review today of the Bush policy on signing statements . Those are legal documents issued by the president the day a bill becomes law . They include instructions for how the law should be executed . Former President Bush used them to challenge 1,200 provisions during his eight years in office ; thats almost double the number challenged by all the previous presidents combined . The economic outlook in the United States and around the world went from bad to worse today . Ray Suarez has our report . @!RAY-SUAREZ : From the trading floor to the factory floor , 16 months of recession has taken its toll , and theres no end in sight . Billionaire investor Warren Buffett , a self-proclaimed optimist , issued this stark assessment today on CNBC. @!WARREN-BUFFETT-In : Its fallen off a cliff . And not only has the economy slowed down a lot ; people have really changed their behavior like nothing Ive ever seen . @!RAY-SUAREZ : So much that the Dow Jones Industrial Average has plunged 2,200 points since last fall , when @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ said unemployment will go much higher and a recovery could take five years , but it will happen . @!WARREN-BUFFETT : Business works overall . It does nt work every day or every week or every month , and sometimes it really gets gummed up , and then you need government intervention sometimes to get the machines back working smoothly . But the machine works . @!RAY-SUAREZ : To that end , Buffett , a long-time Obama supporter , urged Congress and the president to do more to restore confidence . That drew a response from White House press secretary Robert Gibbs . @!ROBERT-GIBBS-Whit : I think Mr. Buffett would agree that -- and , in fact , said , in not so many words , but -- that this problem isnt going to be fixed overnight . @!RAY-SUAREZ : None of the talk did much to help the mood on Wall Street . The Dow Jones Industrial Average lost another 79 points to close at 6,547 . The Nasdaq fell 25 points to close at 1,268 . European stocks managed small gains , but Asian markets slumped across the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ low . The selling followed a World Bank report that the global economy will contract this year for the first time since World War II . The bank also predicted trade will hit its lowest point in 80 years . And in the Financial Times , President Obamas chief economic adviser , Larry Summers , called for greater economic stimulus worldwide . But two leading Republican senators said the Obama administration should instead scale back , at least when it comes to rescuing big banks . @!SEN-RICHARD-SHELBY : Close them down . Get them out of business . If theyre dead , they ought to be buried . We bury the small banks ; weve got to bury some big ones and send a strong message to the market . @!SEN-JOHN-MCCAIN-@1 : I do nt think theyve made the hard decision , and that is to let these banks fail , to let General Motors go into bankruptcy and re-emerge and reorganize with new contracts with labor and others . I do nt think theyve made the tough decisions . Some of these banks have to fail . @!RAY-SUAREZ : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ task force met with officials from G.M. and Chrysler in Detroit . And the United Auto Workers union and Ford agreed today on contract changes to save money . @!GWEN-IFILL : Drug-maker Merck and Company announced today its buying rival Schering-Plough for $41 billion . Merck said it wants to cut costs and products amid increased competition and slumping sales . The merger would create the worlds second-largest maker of prescription drugs , but eliminate 16,000 jobs . The U.S. Supreme Court ruled today in two cases affecting future elections . In one case , the court ruled a key part of the Voting Rights Act affects only congressional districts where minorities are the majority . The justices also let stand a lower court decision against state laws that regulate ballot access for independent presidential candidates . British Prime Minister Gordon Brown insisted today Northern Ireland will not go back to the days of sectarian war . On Saturday , Irish Republican Army dissidents shot and killed two British troops outside their barracks in Antrim , west of Belfast . Four civilians were wounded . Prime Minister Brown met today @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ barracks . @!GORDON-BROWN-Prim : These are callous murderers . These are terrorists who showed no sympathy towards people who were dying . These are callous people who carried out executions in the -- outside these barracks . And I believe the whole population of Northern Ireland is saying what the people of Antrim said yesterday , that these people have got to be hunted down and brought to justice as quickly as possible . @!GWEN-IFILL : Saturdays attack marked the first killings of British troops in Northern Ireland in 12 years . Canadian authorities have confirmed a Canadian soldier was killed in Afghanistan on Sunday . He was part of a NATO force hit by a roadside bombing in the south . The announcement came as the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan , General David McKiernan , said the coalition is struggling in the south and the east . He spoke to the BBC . Over the weekend , President Obama told the New York Times he is open to attempts to make peace with elements of the Taliban . A rocket attack in Iraq killed a British soldier today @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ when they will be out of Iraq . U.S. officials announced Sunday the pullout will happen over the next six months . The withdrawals represent 10 percent of the current U.S. troop presence . @(BREAK) @!GWEN-IFILL : Next , growing troubles for public transportation compounded by the economic downturn . New figures out today show Americans relied on public transit in greater numbers last year . The American Public Transportation Association reports that , as gas prices dropped , more than 10 billion trips were taken by bus and rail , the highest level in more than 50 years . But as demand rises , public agencies are feeling the budget pinch . We have a report from " Blueprint America , " our series on infrastructure produced in collaboration with WNET-New York . Special correspondent Rick Karr has the story . @!RICK-KARR : John Hillman spends a lot of time commuting . @!JOHN-HILLMAN-San- : In other words , I spend about 60 hours a month commuting to and from work . Im part of a trend . And this is why investments in public transit are important to people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ up at the crack of dawn and leaves his condominium in the Bay Area suburbs . He takes a bus to a train to his office at the University of California , San Francisco . @!JOHN-HILLMAN : I save about $100 a month taking transit compared to all of the costs involved in -- if I was to take a car by myself , in terms of bridge tolls , gas , and everything else . And , also , I find it less stressful . My wife and I got rid of one of our automobiles about 18 months ago . We wanted to do it as an experiment . And I think its going to continue indefinitely , as long as theres a transit system still in place . @!RICK-KARR : But in mid-February , the first link in Hillmans transit system started to come undone . @!CHARLEY-ANDERSON- : We may be facing a more serious crisis than was assumed when the F&A Committee made these recommendations , so ... @!RICK-KARR : WestCAT , the suburban bus system that carries Hillman from his home to the train station @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ manager Charley Anderson told the board that the only way out was to slash service . @!CHARLEY-ANDERSON : The additional cuts are the serious ones that actually do change the nature of our system . @!RICK-KARR : Minutes later , for the second time in a year , the board voted to cut back . @!DEBBIE-LONG-Commi : Motion second . All those in favor , say aye . @!COMMITTEE-MEMBER : Aye . @!COMMITTEE-MEMBER : Aye . @!COMMITTEE-MEMBER : Aye . @!DEBBIE-LONG-Aye-Se# @!RICK-KARR : WestCAT could have chosen to raise fares instead , but the agency had already done that recently . And commuter John Hillman says it wouldnt take much more of a hike to convince him to stop using public transit . @!JOHN-HILLMAN : You know , if it were to go up to , say , $3 or $4 a trip , then it just really isnt worthwhile anymore . @!RICK-KARR : Cut service , raise fares , or both ? Its a dilemma facing more than 60 transit systems across the country as they struggle to deal with rising budget deficits . Washington , D.C.s , system @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ New York , its more than $1 billion . And in the Bay Area , the total is around $200 million . San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom says the transit troubles couldnt have come at a worst time . @!GAVIN-NEWSOM-Mayo : Do nt talk to us about job creation . Do nt talk to us about economic rebound if youre going to cut public transit . Youre simply going to shut off the nozzle that gets people to and from work . @!RICK-KARR : The irony is that mass transit systems nationwide , including San Franciscos Muni , are serving more riders than they have in decades . Sounds like good news , but not necessarily . Heres the problem : The $1.50 that I just dropped into the turnstile isnt nearly enough to cover the cost of the trip Im about to go on . Between labor , electricity , and maintenance , it actually costs Muni more than $6 per trip , which means the agency has to come up with more than $4.50 in subsidies . The new federal stimulus package does nt offer much relief . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ equipment , which wont do much to help transit agencies operate the buses and trains they already have . @!GAVIN-NEWSOM : The biggest concern for all these agencies is operating budgets . The whole idea is to subsidize that economic development , which is absolutely critical to have a public transit feed that economic development in terms of getting people to their jobs . And you want to do it without charging $10 per person to get on a bus . @!RICK-KARR : Transit subsidies come from a combination of local , state , and federal sources . They were more or less stagnant even before the recession hit . That means transit agencies havent had the money they need to run the systems they already have . San Francisco Muni General Manager Nat Ford says this light-rail maintenance shop is a good example . @!NAT-FORD-General- : It opened up in September of 2008 , and it is literally going to be the backbone for the future of this transit system here . @!RICK-KARR : You say future tense , " will be . " Is it not fully operational @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ operational at this point . We had to freeze 465 positions . Of that , 60 positions were directly related to this facility -- maintenance personnel , cleaning personnel -- so were , unfortunately , unable to open up the facility to its full potential at this time . @!RICK-KARR : Fords agency is looking at a deficit thats about one- sixth of its total budget , and things will only get worse as suburban systems like WestCAT cut their service . @!NAT-FORD : I would say every transit system in the Bay Area touches Muni in some shape , form or fashion . And a great deal of our ridership is transfers from those systems . So were very concerned about them , also , and the impact that this economic downturn is having on them . @!RICK-KARR : Lawmakers at the state capital in Sacramento say theres nothing they can do to help . @!CALIFORNIA-LEGISLA : California is on the edge of a financial cliff . @!RICK-KARR : When the state legislature finally passed a budget in mid- February after marathon negotiations , it cut transit subsidies from @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sugarcoat it . We are going to be trying to put Band-Aids on a very expensive system that actually has more demands and more needs than it ever has , just to get through the next 18 months . @!RICK-KARR : Its going to be bad ? @!MARK-DESAULNIER : It will be bad . @!RICK-KARR : Mark DeSaulnier is a state senator who represents the suburbs served by WestCAT buses . He says service cuts will prompt transit riders like John Hillman to stop taking buses and trains and get back into their cars and onto the areas most crowded highway . @!MARK-DESAULNIER : You take that one connection on WestCAT away , and he not only does nt get on WestCAT , he does nt get on Muni . That whole continuum goes away , and he s back in that car fighting for a parking space in one of the most congested metropolitan areas in the United States . @!RICK-KARR : DeSaulnier says transit cuts will be hardest on people who cant afford cars , commuters like Juan Medina . He s a former construction worker whos taking @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ He s studying to be an emergency medical technician . For now , when he leaves campus , he rides a train , then boards a WestCAT bus for the rest of the trip . But one of the cuts that WestCAT proposed was to eliminate buses after 9 p.m . Youre going to end up being stranded 10 , 15 miles away from your house . @!JUAN-MEDINA-San-F : Thats right . @!RICK-KARR : What are your options , then ? @!JUAN-MEDINA : My options would be either a cab , cab ride . And aside from that , maybe a bicycle , you know ? Thats if its not raising , you know , so its pretty limited , you know , for a person that does nt drive . How are you doing today , maam ? @!RICK-KARR : Medina was so worried about the proposed cuts that he volunteered to try to get other commuters to speak out against them . @!JUAN-MEDINA : Theres a lot of people that their schedules are nt , you know , a 9:00 to 5:00 . You know , they get @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have you . And , you know , were still as much a vital part of the workforce . @!RICK-KARR : Service cuts can start a downward spiral for transit systems . As buses and trains run less frequently , fewer commuters see the point in waiting around for them , which means less money in the fare box , which means bigger budget gaps . Commuter John Hillman says hell think twice about using public transit if WestCAT has to cut the frequency of its service any further . @!JOHN-HILLMAN : Now its not too bad . If I miss a connection , I only have to wait another 10 or 15 minutes for the next bus or the next BART train to come . But if they were to go to 40 minutes , that would not be good enough . That would make me go out and buy a car . @!RICK-KARR : Congress will have a chance to keep John Hillman and millions of Americans like him commuting by public transit when it takes up a major transportation funding bill later this year . @!GWEN-IFILL : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ has affected public transit . @(BREAK) @!GWEN-IFILL : Now a closer look at the policy change on stem cell research and where it fits into the presidents broader approach toward science . We have two views . Dr. Irv Weissman is director of the Institute of Stem Cell Biology and Regenerative Medicine at Stanford University . He attended todays White House ceremony . And we hope to be joined shortly by Tony Perkins , the president of the Family Research Council , a conservative political advocacy group . He , we hope , will be joining us tonight from Baton Rouge , Louisiana . @!Dr-Weissman-I-wan# @!IRVING-WEISSMAN-S : It was a fantastic change , because two things happened . First , the president said , " Im going to let scientists do science . Im going to remove politics , religion , and ideology from that . " The second thing he said is , " Im going to allow all the scientists in the United States to apply for funds to do embryonic stem cell research or pluripotent stem cell research , all the scientists in the United States , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ fund it . " @!GWEN-IFILL : Well , were going to take this a bit at a time , but lets start by reminding people exactly of what is significant about embryonic stem cell research as opposed to adult stem cell research , which was never prohibited . @!IRVING-WEISSMAN : Right . And I want to start by saying Im an adult stem cell researcher . My lab isolated blood-forming and other tissue- forming stem cells . We were also the ones to show that blood-forming stem cells make blood and nothing else . It is not true that adult stem cells of one type can make another tissue . On the other hand , embryonic stem cells at the earliest stage of development , as they develop in a test tube , can make every kind of tissue . We surmise , then , every kind of stem cell . Theyll allow us to move much faster to find , for example , a lung stem cell , a kidney stem cell , a heart stem cell , a liver stem cell . Those are the stem cells we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have those organs and those tissues regenerated when things go wrong . @!GWEN-IFILL : Whats been the practical effect of this ban that was imposed eight years ago ? Is it that all research stopped ? Or was it just that it had to come from a different funding stream ? @!IRVING-WEISSMAN : It stopped the research on any new embryonic stem cell lines . That meant everybody had to work with those lines which we knew from the beginning , because they were cultured with mouse cells , could be infected with mouse viruses . The second part is that , in places like California where we can do embryonic stem cell research funded by the state , we had to keep completely separate bureaucracies and accounts and new buildings . We wasted a lot money and a lot of time building a new infrastructure that never had a federal dollar in it so that we could do this research . Now all of that will go away . And its nice to see a Democratic president reducing the bureaucracy so that we can do this kind of research @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in Baton Rouge . @!Mr-Perkins-welcom# @!TONY-PERKINS-Fami : Thank you . Good evening . @!GWEN-IFILL : So give me a sense of what your reaction is to the presidents action today ? @!TONY-PERKINS : Well , obviously concerned . Were supportive of science , good science , science that is both ethical and effective . And , you know , very concerned about where science could lead us unbridled by any type of ethical constraints . And so I think its going to be very important what the rules are here , but were still talking about the destruction of human embryos in this embryonic stem cell research . @!GWEN-IFILL : You say unbridled by any ethical research restraints . There is still -- I think its called the Dickey-Wicker amendment on the books , right , which still bans the creation -- use of tax dollars to create or destroy embryos , right ? @!TONY-PERKINS : Right . What this does is , I think as the doctor was just explaining , it expands beyond the existing stem cell lines that President Bush limited it to . So it is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is what I would say is the first step , and I think the doctor would admit that , that this is the first step . There will be , Im sure , a very intense legislative debate over the Dickey-Wicker amendment , whether or not that stays on the appropriations . Thats something that has to be done every year . Its whats called a rider , which has to be assertively put on . Its not automatically there . @!GWEN-IFILL : But do you feel that , with the presidents action today , that makes the chances , especially with Democratic increases in the House and the Senate , that makes it more likely now that that might disappear , as well ? @!TONY-PERKINS : I think thats true . I think that , with this step , youre going to see an effort to remove those limitations on the use of tax dollars . And I think , you know , when the Americans look at this and this whole issue , I think this president had a mandate from the voters to address the economic issues @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ issues and controversial science such as embryonic stem cell research , I think he loses the mandate of the public . And it certainly does nt do anything to benefit people when it comes to jobs and comes to putting food on the table when were talking about limited research dollars . Were just advocating they be put into good research , research that has produced , such as adult stem cell , which I know the doctor has done . @!GWEN-IFILL : Let me ask Dr. Weissman to respond to that . @!IRVING-WEISSMAN : Well , the first is , when we started doing this kind of research under the California Institute of Regenerative Medicine , Prop 71 , we , of course , accepted oversight that had to do with medical ethics and bioethics . So its not true that the president left this now open for unbridled , unethical research . We always know that we are doing what the taxpayer asks us what to do , advanced medical science . @!TONY-PERKINS : And whos going to provide those -- whos going to provide those guidelines ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? @!IRVING-WEISSMAN : Well , the NIH must provide them . The NIH has before . @!TONY-PERKINS : But thats this -- but thats -- what we basically have is the scientists will be deciding what the scientists can do . @!GWEN-IFILL : And who should be ? @!TONY-PERKINS : Well , I mean , I think -- I clearly think that the representatives of the people whose tax dollars are being used for this . I mean , but I guess I would ask the doctor , what is too far ? I mean , were talking about human cloning . You know , how far can we go ? I mean , in terms of -- as he sees this being ethical , how far could we go ? @!GWEN-IFILL : Well , let me -- the president did say today that he still opposed human cloning , did nt he ? @!IRVING-WEISSMAN : And I was the head of the National Academys panel that said unanimously we should oppose human reproductive cloning because it was , at least from the animal studies , unsafe , dangerous for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ nothing to do with cloning . @!TONY-PERKINS : But what about -- well , what about the cloning for ... @!IRVING-WEISSMAN : This has to do with ... @!TONY-PERKINS : Well , no ... @!GWEN-IFILL : Just a moment , Mr. Perkins . Ill get right to you . @!IRVING-WEISSMAN : This has to do with biomedical research . Now , when I want to do embryonic stem cell research with the NIH , I apply with a grant . That does nt mean I get to do it . It means I get to apply to do it . And it will be looked at for its scientific merit , for any medical , ethical issues , any economic issues . So its not true what Mr. Perkins says . @!TONY-PERKINS : Wait a minute . You said that you oppose human cloning for reproduction , but what about human cloning for experimentation ? @!IRVING-WEISSMAN : I think that it is critical to find safe and good ways to re-program adult stem cells to the pluripotent embryonic stem cell way . We have two ways ... @!TONY-PERKINS : No @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Hang on . We have two ways to do it . One is nuclear transfer , which , by the way , if it makes a blastocyst , has very little or no chance of making a human being , so its not going to make a clone . @!GWEN-IFILL : Id like to step in here because I really want to broaden the conversation out , because what the president also said in a separate memo , Mr. Perkins , is that he wanted to -- he called it a false choice between science and moral values . And he s talking about rolling back the entire relationship between government and the scientific community . Do you see this as the beginning of a slippery slope ? Or do you see this as something else ? @!TONY-PERKINS : Well , again , I think there should be ethical restraints . I do nt think that you can just say , well , the scientists can determine what those ethics are . I mean , can we put human cells into animal cells ? I mean , can we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ mean , how far will we go ? Will we make chimeras ? What type of research can we do ? How long can we allow these embryos to grow before we harvest the stem cells or harvest organs ? I mean , those are very real issues that have moral implications which need to be addressed . @!GWEN-IFILL : Dr. Weissman ? @!IRVING-WEISSMAN : So we made human-mouse chimeras with blood-forming stem cells , and the FDA said that was a necessary path before we could treat humans . Raising the idea by saying the word " chimera , " that this is something wrong , is false . And what it does is it opens up the idea that there are many areas of research which could lead to medical advances that were going to block because , for some reason , he wouldnt like to have human cells tested in a mouse . @!GWEN-IFILL : What about science beyond just a discussion about human cells and stem cells , Mr. Perkins ? This whole idea , the relationship in the last eight years between the administration and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ friendly one . Does that change now ? @!TONY-PERKINS : Well , I mean , I do nt know . I guess if you let them do whatever they want , then I guess theyre your friend . I do nt know . I mean , we had a very similar debate , you know , with the use of fetal tissue . We were told when Bill Clinton came into office , and he removed the prohibition against the use of fetal tissue , federal dollars to do experimentation on fetal tissue , we had to have fetal tissue . It was going to solve all of these problems . We do nt hear anything about fetal tissue anymore because those that were actually treated when it was approved actually got worse . @!GWEN-IFILL : And there ... @!TONY-PERKINS : So just because scientists want to do it does nt necessarily mean its going to work , nor does it mean its right . @!GWEN-IFILL : And there have been questions about broader issues , including climate change , scientific relationship , Dr. Weissman , between the scientists and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was changing or is this just a step along the way ? @!IRVING-WEISSMAN : Yes . Yes . So what President Obama said is that we will allow scientists and the people who advise the government to present their scientific results unfettered by whatever political implications , whatever inconvenient implications they have . You must remember that those of us who are doing biomedical research , most of us who are MDs have taken an oath to help people as our first priority . And for us to say were going to do research which will help people with many diseases , at least try to help people with many diseases is our first goal . When he says we want to do unbridled research , thats simply untrue . We want to apply to do research that is regulated by our government , by our state , and by our institutions . @!GWEN-IFILL : Dr. Irv Weissman , well leave it there . Thank you very much . And , Tony Perkins , thank you for making the effort to join us tonight . @!TONY-PERKINS : All right . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And still to come on the NewsHour tonight : filling the empty offices in the Obama administration . But first , this is Pledge Week on public television . We are taking a short break now so your public television station can ask for your support . That support helps keep programs like ours on the air . @(BREAK) @!GWEN-IFILL : Next , empty offices and quiet corridors within the Obama administration . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF : As if the weakening economy , other domestic problems , and two wars overseas were not enough for President Obama to deal with , the large number of still-vacant positions across the federal government is complicating matters further . Asked about the unfilled slots today , White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said the administrations staffing process is moving forward . @!ROBERT-GIBBS-Whit : Theres a rigorous process involved . We hope that were working with Capitol Hill to ensure that , at the same time theres appropriate rigor and vetting , that theres not in any way any undue delay in ensuring that good people who want to serve their country can get into the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ more on the causes and the impact of the delays in filling top jobs in the new administration , were joined by New York Times reporter Jeff Zeleny and Paul Light , professor of public service at New York University and author of the book " A Government Ill Executed : The Decline of the Federal Service and How to Reverse It . " Thank you both for being with us . And , Jeff Zeleny , to you first . Youre the one who asked Robert Gibbs that question . Where does the administration stand in terms of filling jobs ? @!JEFF-ZELENY-New-Y : Well , the administration is a little frustrated by this . Right now , the numbers , they always say that theyre doing better than previous presidents have , but what they do nt say is their problems are and their challenges are far greater than previous presidents . So some 71 people have been nominated or named for positions . Only 41 of them have been nominated ; only 28 of them have been confirmed . And these are for senior , senior positions . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ one administration official I talked to today explained it the best . Its like when you show up to an airport , a security line , all these applicants are standing in line . And if one person does nt take off their shoes , the line grows and grows and grows . And thats exactly what happened with the tax problems of someone like Tom Daschle , someone like a Timothy Geithner , the treasury secretary , so thats what has happened here . So now theyre trying to take steps to sort of speed this process along , which is a challenge . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF : Paul Light , how does this compare with previous administrations weve watched ? @!PAUL-LIGHT-New-Yo : Well , Obama is running a little bit ahead of George W. Bush . He s running a little bit behind Bill Clinton . But , you know , all three were remarkably slow . So to say youre ahead of recent presidents is not saying much at all . Youve got a very sluggish process that has become much more burdensome over the last 50 years . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and cabinet within about two-and-a-half months of election . Barack Obama will be lucky to have his last appointee in by the first of the year . Its just a terrible process . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF : Jeff Zeleny , tell us how the process works . Whos doing the vetting ? Where is it being done ? @!JEFF-ZELENY : Well , the vetting now is being done all in the White House counsels office . It was being done by the personnel department before , basically , but now its being done essentially entirely by lawyers , not political people , but lawyers in the White House . And it takes some 65 days from the time that youre named for the position -- at least thats the average -- to the time that you can officially report to work . So the frustrating thing here is -- or the problem here is that some people are not waiting the full 65 days . Some of the qualified people , they believe , who they wanted to work in the administration who were big supporters are not sticking around . And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ So the reason ... @!JUDY-WOODRUFF : Why are nt they sticking around ? @!JEFF-ZELENY : Well , because the process is so laborious . So weve heard reports that people who have to find travel receipts from three years ago for a $20 receipt for something . Everyone is essentially being audited . Because of the tax problems of a few secretaries or potential secretaries , everyone is now being very thoroughly audited . And after the Tom Daschle situation , President Obama ordered his lawyers and his team to scrub the taxes of everyone . So that slowed down the process even further . So its being very strict . And , you know , its slowing things down . It has real effects . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF : Paul Light , is the scrubbing process now considerably different from what it was under previous presidents ? @!PAUL-LIGHT : Well , there are two things that are affecting it . Number one , there are many more people going through the process today than there were even eight years ago . We keep adding more and more Senate-confirmed appointees to the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ disclosure forms have become more complicated . The Obama administration has a 63-item questionnaire which asks whether or not youve ever sent a controversial e-mail , asks you whether or not you have a Facebook page , and so forth and so on . There are roughly 300 questions that each appointee will be asked . And about two-thirds of them are the same question , with just very small differences in the formation of the answer so that youve got to keep going over and over it again . And thats why about half of the Obama appointees will hire outside help to get them through this process , and many will spend considerable amounts of money to get their tax forms and get ready for the audits that come along as part of this . Its a very serious problem in terms of people pulling themselves out of the process before it even begins and , as Jeff says , people leaving the process once theyre in it . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF : And Jeff Zeleny , clearly theyve toughened this up because of Daschle and Geithners problems . How @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ read the Treasury barely has anybody working there under Secretary Geithner . How bad is it there ? And how many problems is it causing substantively for this administration ? @!JEFF-ZELENY : Well , I think when you hear people who are very friendly to the president , like a Paul Volcker , you know , the former chairman of the Federal Reserve , he said this is a big problem . He really sounded the alarm a while ago . Its one of the reasons the White House on a Sunday morning , at 9 oclock yesterday morning , announced that three people had finally been named to senior positions at the Treasury Department . Its been -- I would say that is the department that has suffered the most of this , at least in terms of a public relations hit . If you talk to people throughout the agencies , they say , look , there are a lot of career people in place here . But it means that a lot of the decisions are being handled at the White House or not handled at all @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ really matters in places like HHS . It matters in , you know , the FDA , other places like that , you know , where some decisions have to be made , but they say , you know , its only March . You know , by May , a lot of these positions should be filled . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF : But , Paul Light , when you overlay the economic crisis over this , it makes it even worse than it looks , does it not ? @!PAUL-LIGHT : Absolutely . One thing we need to recognize is that Tim Geithner is not wandering down a deserted hallway waiting for Norman Bates to jump out at him . He s got 50 political appointees working for him who are hired by the president without Senate confirmation . He s got a chief of staff , a deputy chief of staff . Former Clinton economic adviser Gene Sperling is there . He s got an automobile czar , so he s not alone . But he does nt have the Senate confirmed appointees in place , and they are the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ make decisions , execute policy . And the career civil servants who are absolutely terrific just really do nt feel that they have the authority to execute . Thats the real problem here , that you have this de facto sub-cabinet that operates out of the secretarys office , but you do nt have your true sub-cabinet in place because its stuck on Capitol Hill or its still being audited . So you do nt have the middle vertebrae , the neck , if you will , of government . Youve got the head of the Treasury Department . Youve got the career people . Its kind of neck-less government , if you will . You just do nt have those vertebrae in place to transfer information on down and to move policy ideas on up . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF : Thats certainly one way to think about it . Jeff Zeleny , you were just telling me that people youre talking to inside the White House , inside the executive branch are beginning to express candidly that maybe candidate Obama was maybe a little overzealous in saying he was going to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Theres no question . The central theme of the Obama campaign was to change the way Washington works . Candidate Obama talked a lot about these tough rules on ethics and tough rules on lobbyists . " We will not hire former lobbyists . " Well , when you want to fill this administration -- I talked to an administration official this afternoon who said , look , we have an economic crisis on our hands and two wars . You do nt want people who havent worked in government before . Democrats have not been in power for eight years , so of course some of them have worked in the lobby . So now some real jigsaw-puzzle action is going on here . Someone without worked in the Defense Department , perhaps , or has been a lobbyist now may be looked at for an education job . The rules say you can not work in the area where you lobbied , so the point of these rules seemed good , appealing to Democrats , appealing to voters on the campaign trail , but now theyre having real @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and said , " You know , should we roll some of these back ? " He says , " Absolutely not . " He thinks that would be a hit on his core message . So it makes the office of personnel to go out and recruit people a little more difficult . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF : Less than 20 seconds , Paul Light . Is there a way to fix this ? Or do they just need to plow through it ? @!PAUL-LIGHT : Cut the number of political appointees . Cut them in half . Get Congress to decide which ones are important . Get the Senate involved and cut the number of appointees . Theyll move faster . Theyll be better . And well get more career people involved in the day-to-day operations of government . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF : All right . We hear you both . Paul Light and Jeff Zeleny , thank you both . Appreciate it . @(BREAK) @!GWEN-IFILL : Again , the major developments of the day . President Obama lifted restrictions on government funding of research using embryonic stem cells . And drug-maker Merck @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ billion . And an editors note before we go tonight . We have a new one-stop address for our Web site : newshour.pbs.org now takes you right there . Tonight , for instance , youll find more on stem cell research , additional reporting from the NewsHour and other PBS programs on infrastructure , and also online features , like Jeffrey Browns interview with poet laureate Kay Ryan . The NewsHour is available whenever you want it at newshour.pbs.org . Well see you online and again here tomorrow evening . Im Gwen Ifill . Thank you , and good night .

@@4032041 MIND READING @!LESLEY-STAHL-co-h : How often have you wondered what your spouse is really thinking , or you boss , or the guy sitting across from you on the bus ? We all take as a given that we 'll never really know for sure . The content of our thoughts is our own , private , secret , unknowable by anyone else -- until now , that is . Neuroscience research into how we think and what we 're thinking is advancing at a stunning rate , making it possible for the first time in human history to peer directly into the brain to read out the physical makeup of our thoughts -- some would say , to read our minds . qwq @ ( MRI-scanning-machi @(Voiceover) This is the technology that is transforming what once was science fiction into just plain science . It 's a specialized use of MRI scanning called functional MRI , FMRI for short , that makes it possible to see what 's going on inside the brain while people are thinking . @!Mr-MARCEL-JUST : Every time I walk into that scanner room and I see the person 's brain appear on the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ just incredible , unthinkable . @!STAHL : Mind reading . I -- what do you call it ? @!Mr-JUST : Thought identification . @(Marcel-Just-and-To) @!STAHL : @(Voiceover) Whatever you want to call it , what neuroscientist Marcel Just and his colleague Tom Mitchell at Carnegie-Mellon University have done is combine FMRI 's ability to look at the brain in action with computer science 's new power to sort through massive amounts of data . The goal : to see if they could identify exactly what happens in the brain when people think specific thoughts . Unidentified Woman : OK , are you ready to get started ? @(Woman-getting-brai) @!STAHL : @(Voiceover) They did an experiment where they asked subjects to think about 10 objects , five of them tools like screwdriver and hammer , and five of them dwellings like igloo and castle , then recorded and analyzed the activity in their brains for each . You had them think about a screwdriver ... @!Mr-JUST : Mm-hmm . @!STAHL : ... and the computer found the place in the brain where that person was thinking screwdriver ' ? @!Mr-JUST : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's many places in the brain . When you think of a screwdriver , you think about how you hold it , how you twist it , what it looks like , what you use it for ... @!STAHL : And each of those functions are in different places ? @!Mr-JUST : Correct . @(Just-interviewed-b) @!STAHL : @(Voiceover) Just says when we think screwdriver or igloo , for example , neurons start firing at varying levels of intensity in different areas throughout the brain . @!Mr-JUST : And we found that we could identify which object they were thinking about from their brain activation patterns . @!STAHL : You 're reading their mind . @!Mr-JUST : We 're identifying the thought that 's occurring . @!STAHL : Whoa . @!Mr-JUST : It 's incredible , just incredible . @!STAHL : Are you saying that if you think of a hammer , that your brain is identical to my brain when I think of a hammer ? @!Mr-JUST : Not identical . We have idiosyncrasies . Maybe I 've had a bad experience with a hammer and you have n't , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ thoughts . So you know , that was never known before . @(Meghan-Frank-getti) @!STAHL : @(Voiceover) We asked if his team was up for a challenge , would they take our associate producer Meghan Frank , whose brain had never been scanned before , and see if the computer could identify her thoughts . Just and Mitchell agreed to give it a try and see if they could do it in almost real time . So you 've never done an instant analysis , as we might say on television ? @!Mr-JUST : Nobody 's done this , ever . @!STAHL : Ever ? That 's actually her brain ? Unidentified Man : That 's it . That 's her brain . @(Scanner-technician) @!STAHL : @(Voiceover) Inside the scanner , Meghan was shown a series of 10 items and asked to think for a few seconds about each one . If it all comes out right , when she 's thinking hammer , the computer will know she 's thinking hammer . @!Mr-TOM-MITCHELL : Right . Man : OK , we 're all done . @!STAHL : So Meghan ... @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? @!Ms-FRANK : It was n't bad . @!STAHL : Good . qwq @ ( Computer-data ; -bra @(Voiceover) Within minutes the computer , unaware of what pictures Meghan had been shown and working only from her brain activity patterns as read out by the scanner , was ready to tell us , in its own voice , what it believed was the first object Meghan had been thinking about . Electronic Voice : I think the word is knife . @!Mr-MITCHELL : All right , one . @!Ms-FRANK : That 's right . @!STAHL : Bingo . All right . @(Computer-screen) @(Voiceover) Then , the second ... Electronic Voice : I think the word is hammer . @!Mr-MITCHELL : All right . Electronic Voice : I think the word is window . @!STAHL : It 's perfect , right ? @!Mr-MITCHELL : So far . qwq @ ( Just-Mitchell ; -co @!STAHL : @(Voiceover) And it continued to be , word after word . Electronic Voice : Apartment . @!Mr-MITCHELL : Ten out of 10. @!STAHL : Ten out of 10 . Well done . Well done . @!Ms-FRANK @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : And of course , this is just the beginning . @!Mr-JUST : Exactly . @!STAHL : Who knows what you 're going to be able to read . @!Mr-JUST : That 's right . @!STAHL : It 's a little scary , actually . @!Mr-JUST : Well , that 's our research program for the next five years . @!STAHL : What ? @!Mr-JUST : To see what , how -- you know , we 're not satisfied with hammer . qwq @ ( German-flag ; -Berli @!STAHL : @(Voiceover) And neither are neuroscientists 4,000 miles away in Berlin at the Bernstein Center . John Dylan Haynes is hard at work here using the scanner not just to identify objects people are thinking about , but to read their intentions . @!Mr-JOHN-DYLAN-HAYN : So we 're going to start now with the actual experiments ... @(Man-in-scanning-ma) @!STAHL : @(Voiceover) Subjects were asked to make a simple decision , whether to add or subtract two numbers they would be shown later on . Haynes found he could read directly from the activity in this small part of the brain that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!Mr-HAYNES : This is a kind of blown up version of the brain activity happening here . And you can see that , if a person is planning to add or to subtract , the pattern of brain activity is different in these two cases . @!Mr-PAUL-ROOT-WOLPE : I always tell my students that there is no science fiction anymore . All the science fiction I read in high school , we 're doing . qwq @ ( Shelves-of-books ; - @!STAHL : @(Voiceover) To Paul Root Wolpe , director of the Center for Ethics at Emory University in Atlanta , the ability to read our thoughts and intentions this way is revolutionary . @!Mr-WOLPE : Throughout history we could never actually coerce someone to reveal information . Torture does n't work that well . Persuasion does n't work that well . The right to keep one 's thoughts locked up in their brain is amongst the most fundamental rights of being human . @!STAHL : You 're saying that if someone can read my intentions , we have to talk about who might in the future be able to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ going to let the state do it or whether we 're going to let me do it . I have two teenage daughters . I come home one day and my car is dented and both of them say they did n't do it . Am I going to be allowed to drag them off to the local brain imaging lie detection company and get them put in a scanner ? We do n't know . @(When-Truth-Matters) @!STAHL : @(Voiceover) But before we 've even started the debate , there are two companies already offering lie detection services using brain scans , one with a catchy name No Lie MRI . But our experts caution that the technique is still unproven . In the meantime , Haynes is working on something he thinks may be even more effective , reading out from your brain exactly where you 've been . Haynes showed me an experiment he created out of a video game . @!Mr-HAYNES : And you can actually navigate around , if you want . @(Reality-video-game) @!STAHL : @(Voiceover) He had me navigate through a series of rooms in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ put you in a scanner and I would show you some of these scenes that you 've seen and some scenes that you have n't seen . So ... @!STAHL : Well , I have n't seen anything yet . Oh , OK . OK , now I 'm getting into ... @!Mr-HAYNES : Do you recognize ... @!STAHL : ... familiar territory . @!Mr-HAYNES : ... something ? @!STAHL : Yeah , I recognize the bar . @!Mr-HAYNES : And right at this moment , we would be able to tell from your brain activity that you 've already seen this environment before . @!STAHL : And so this is a potential tool ... @!Mr-HAYNES : It 's a potential tool . @!STAHL : ... for the police . @!Mr-HAYNES : Absolutely . @!STAHL : In the case of break-ins. @!Mr-HAYNES : You might be able to tell if someone 's been in an al-Qaeda training camp before . @!STAHL : Have any national security agencies been in touch with you ? @!Mr-HAYNES : Not in -- not in the US. @!STAHL : Anywhere in the world ? @!Mr-HAYNES @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Germany , but ... @!STAHL : So there are people who are considering these kinds of possibilities ? qwq @ ( Street-in-India ; -m @!STAHL : @(Voiceover) And using them . In India last summer a woman was convicted of murder after an EEG of her brain allegedly revealed that she was familiar with the circumstances surrounding the poisoning of her ex-fiancee . Can you , through our legal system , be forced to take one of these tests ? @!Mr-WOLPE : It 's a great question . And the legal system has n't decided on this yet . @!STAHL : But we do have a Fifth Amendment . We do n't have to incriminate ourselves . @!Mr-WOLPE : Well , here 's where it gets very interesting , because the Fifth Amendment only prevents the courts from forcing us to testify against ourselves . But you can force me to give DNA or a hair sample or blood , even if that would incriminate me . So here 's the million dollar question : If you can brain-image me and get information directly from my brain , is that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and other things that you could take from me ? @!STAHL : It 's a court case , inevitable . @!Mr-WOLPE : There will be a Supreme Court case about this . @(Scanning-technicia) @!STAHL : @(Voiceover) For now , it 's impossible to force someone to have his or her brain scanned because the subject has to lie still and cooperate , but that could change . @!Mr-WOLPE : There are some other technologies that are being developed that may be able to be used covertly and even remotely . So , for example , they 're trying to develop now a beam of light that would be projected onto your forehead . It would go a couple of millimeters into your frontal cortex , and then receptors would get the reflection of that light . And there 's some studies that suggest that we could use that as a lie detection device . @!STAHL : And we would n't know we 've got a red dot on our forehead ? @!Mr-WOLPE : No , you wouldn't. @!STAHL : We would n't know . @!Mr-WOLPE : If you were sitting @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Yeah . @!Mr-WOLPE : ... they could beam that on your forehead without your knowledge . We ca n't do that yet , but they 're working on it . qwq @ ( People-on-street ; - @!STAHL : @(Voiceover) Scary as that is , imagine a world where companies could read our minds , too . Light beams may be a bit far off , but FMRI scanning is already being used to try to figure out what we want to buy and how to sell it to us . It 's a new field called neuro-marketing . One of its pioneers is neuroscientist Gemma Calvert , co-founder of a London company called Neurosense . Do you have a lot of clients ? @!Ms-GEMMA-CALVERT : Yes , such as Unilever , Intel , McDonald 's , Proctor & Gamble , MTV or Viacom. @(Man-in-scanning-ma) @!STAHL : @(Voiceover) And she says it 's a growing field . @!Ms-CALVERT : What we 've seen is a sort of snowballing effect over the last few years . I think there are about 92 neuro-marketing agencies worldwide . @(Brain-scan) @!STAHL : @(Voiceover) But some @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for commercial purposes , and say neuro-marketers may be promising more than they can really deliver . @!Mr-WOLPE : If you image my brain , and you say , A-ha , Paul craves chocolate chip cookies . And I say , no I do n't , now , are you going to believe the brain over me ? You can only do that if you have proven that that part of the brain lighting up means , in all cases , that that person desires chocolate chip cookies . And what a lot of people are doing is they 're just imaging the brain , then they 're declaring what that means , and they 're never proving that it actually translates into behavior. @!STAHL : You know , it 's very interesting . When you show someone a brain scan , people just believe it . It just reeks of credibility . @!Mr-HAYNES : Absolutely . Absolutely . @!STAHL : And you telling me that 's the area where people add and subtract , I thought , well , of course , he knows . @!Mr-HAYNES : But I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @(Person-being-put-i) @!STAHL : @(Voiceover) So as brain imaging continues to advance and find its way into the courts , the market and who knows what other aspects of our lives , one message is : be cautious . Another is : get ready . Back at Carnegie-Mellon , Just and Mitchell have already uncovered the signatures in our brains for kindness , hypocrisy and love . It 's breathtaking . @!Mr-JUST : Yes . @!STAHL : And kind of eerie . @!MR-JUST : Well , you know , I think the reason people have that reaction is because it reveals the essence of what it means to be a person . All of those kinds of things that define us as human beings are brain patterns . @!STAHL : We do n't want to know that . @!Mr-JUST : Well ... @!STAHL : That it all boils down to , I do n't know , molecules and things like that . @!Mr-JUST : But we are . You know , we are biological creatures . You know , our limbs we accept are , you know , muscles and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!STAHL : Do you think one day , who knows how far into the future , there 'll be a machine that 'll be able to read very complex thought like I hate so and so , or , you know , I love the ballet because ... ' @!Mr-JUST : Definitely . Definitely . @!STAHL : Definitely . @!Mr-JUST : And not in 20 years . I think in three , five years . Ample dust ... @!STAHL : In three years ? @!Mr-JUST : Well , five . @(Announcements) @(60-MINUTES-graphic) @!SCOTT-PELLEY-co-h : @(Voiceover) 60 MINUTES continues in a moment , and we 're always online at cbsnews.com. @(Announcements)

@@4072041 NEAL @!CONAN , host : The nomination of Judge Sonia Sotomayor to the U.S. Supreme Court fulfilled the hopes of many Latinos and women . The story of a rise from a housing project in the Bronx inspires Americans of every background . But what difference might it make with a second woman and the first Hispanic on the high court ? And is there an informal quota system that will leave Clarence Thomas as the only African American justice ? If you have questions about sexual and racial diversity on the Supreme Court , send us an email : talk@npr.org Emily Bazelon is a senior editor at the online magazine Slate , and joins us today from our bureau in New York . Nice of you to be with us today . @!Ms-EMILY-BAZELON-@ : My pleasure . Thanks for having me. @!CONAN : And Sherrilyn Ifill is a law professor at the University of Maryland School of Law , and with us today from the studios of member station WEAA in Baltimore . Welcome to you , too . Professor SHERRILYN IFILL ( Law , University of Maryland School of Law ) : Thanks for having me. @!CONAN @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ You wrote a piece for the online magazine The Root where you asked whether blacks should be disappointed that President Obama 's first nomination went to Judge Sonia Sotomayor. @!Prof-IFILL : Yes , and my conclusion was that we should not . It actually came out of an experience I had the day of Judge Sotomayor 's announcement when I called one of my Latino friends and - to get his feelings . I knew he would be excited that this was an important symbolic moment for the Latino community . And he said to me , the first thing , are you disappointed ? And I think it 's important for people to recognize that because the views of the one African-American justice on the court , Clarence Thomas , is so widely divergent from the views held by most African-Americans around a variety of issues that relate to race that in many ways , many African-Americans feel that they are not represented on the court . That 's not to say that Clarence Thomas is not African-American . He is certainly is and authentically is . But his @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And so there was and there continues to be a feeling that , you know , a hope that simply having Clarence Thomas on the court does not mean that a president will feel foreclosed from appointing another African-American nominee to the court whose views would be more consistent with those of most African- Americans . And so , when Sonia Sotomayor was first announced , you know , that was the reaction of my friend - are you disappointed ? And I wrote the piece to say we should not be disappointed at all , that this is a very important moment . And just as Latinos celebrated and were happy for the nomination and the tenure of Thurgood Marshall on the court , we , too , should be excited about the nomination of the first Latina Supreme Court justice . @!CONAN : And the piece you wrote also mentioned the days when there was an informal quota system , that there was the Catholic seat on the bench and the ... @!Prof-IFILL : Yeah . @!CONAN : ... Jewish seat on the bench . And those days @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ piece , is there only one seat for an African-American ? @!Prof-IFILL : Well , that 's the concern . I mean , you know , we 've certainly gotten rid of the religious quota system , right ? The Supreme Court is now dominated by Catholics . That used to be controversial . We have more than one Jewish member of the court . And yet there , you know , if you look at the articles that have come out , or that come out every time a Supreme Court justice retires since Clarence Thomas has been placed on the court and people , you know , announced their informal shortlist of , you know , who do they think is on the shortlist that , you know , the president might pick , whether Republican or Democrat , there is almost never the name of an African-American on the list because it 's almost as if the received knowledge is that , you know , the African-American seat has been filled , and therefore that 's not the demographic that the president has to respond to . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I was trying to express in the piece . @!CONAN : Emily Bazelon , let me turn to you and the - your interview with the one woman still on the high court , and that of course is Ruth Bader Ginsburg . And you asked her about her prediction that she thought one day there would be four women on the Supreme Court . @!Ms-BAZELON : Right . And she was funny . She said , well , my prediction has turned out to be true for the Canadian Supreme Court . qwq @ ( Soundbite-of-laugh @!Ms-BAZELON : And then she said that she , you know , is really looking forward to no longer being the sole woman around this place , as she called the court in the kind of , you know , intimate way . And there is a certain loneliness to the symbol of being the only person . It goes to what Sherrilyn was saying , too , about why it 's important to have more than one African-American on the court . You do n't necessarily want to be the one who @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ whole race . @!CONAN : And feeling that you are the representative of everybody on your side , the side of the sexual divide in any case - that 's speaking for Ruth Bader Ginsburg . And it was so interesting that she talked about the difference that she thought women made on bench . @!Ms-BAZELON : Right . I mean , she is not what 's often called a big difference feminist , meaning that , you know , she pushes the notion that having women will matter in outcome in terms of a lot of different kinds of cases . She 's - you know , there is actually some academic research - it goes in a variety of different directions - it 's not conclusive , but some indication that at least some studies show that women do reach different rulings than men or that they influence men when they 're on an appellate panel with male judges . And Justice Ginsburg really was only willing to allow for a limited purview for that kind of outcome effect of women on the bench . And she was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ harassment cases . @!CONAN : And let me turn back to you , Sherillyn Ifill . And the presence of an African-American justice on the court , well , I think a lot of people have written what a difference Thurgood Marshall made . @!Ms-IFILL : Yeah . I mean , it 's interesting to me that people are finally beginning pay some more attention to this . It certainly came out when Justice Marshall retired from the bench and there was an issue of the Stanford Law Review that was kind of dedicated to Thurgood Marshall when he left the bench . And then a number of the pieces that were written by justices who sat with him on the court , Justice O'Connor , Justice White , even Justice Rehnquist talked about the presence of Justice Marshall in the conference and how that presence influenced them , the stories that he told about not just his personal experiences but his experiences representing African-Americans in the South , representing poor and marginalized people . And I think it was Justice White who said , you know , he told @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to remember . And so I think that there was a certain truth that he spoke . There was a certain reality that he was able to bring into the conference room that was important . Now people ask , of course , they say , well , did it make a difference ? You know , did they change their votes as a result of Marshall 's stories ? qwq @ ( Soundbite-of-laugh @!Ms-IFILL : And I , you know , I 've looked at some of Justice O'Connor 's cases , and I 'd have to say no . But , you know , judicial decision making is not just about the outcome of the case - you know , the five-four , the six-three . It 's about deciding which cases the court 's going to hear , which is a decision , by the way , that by tradition , is made by four justices , or four justices vote to hear a case , then it can be granted - you know , the writ of certiorari can be granted and the case can be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ support a decision or to support a dissent . I mean , there are lots of decisions that form judicial decision making . And I think that I appreciate the candor of the justices who served with Thurgood Marshall . Even Justice Scalia has said just his presence in the room made a difference . And I actually think - you know , this year I was listening to the oral argument in the big voting rights case that came out of Texas . This was a case that was going to decide whether Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act was unconstitutional . And I listened to the oral argument , and I felt certain that some of the questions asked by some of the justices - Justice Roberts , perhaps Justice Alito - maybe would n't have been asked if there were a Thurgood Marshall on the bench because of his background , because of his experience and because of the kind of moral heft that he brought to the bench . @!CONAN : And Emily Bazelon , let me ask you about another case that was just @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ court , and that involved the search of a 13-year-old girl . The school authorities had a zero tolerance policy and were looking for drugs that she may have been carrying . It turned she was not . But any case , during oral arguments , a lot of people came to the conclusion that this did not seem to disturb the male members of the court . @!Ms-BAZELON : Right . And there were some comments by the male justices . Justice Breyer in particular said something about how when he was in middle school , you know , people sometimes put things in his underwear and it was all sort of in the spirit of play . And you could see during oral argument that Justice Ginsburg was quite dismayed by some of her colleagues reactions . And then , while the case was still pending , she gave an interview to Joan Biskupic at USA Today in which she made it clear she was not happy with how her male colleagues had behaved at oral argument . And lo and behold , when the majority opinion by @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sober approach to the case . And , in fact , you know , by eight-to-one , the court found that this search of this 13-year-old girl was unreasonable and thus unconstitutional . And in the - the course of making that ruling , Justice Souter singled out changing your clothes for gym as a different kind of circumstance than a strip search when you 're accused of having drugs . @!CONAN : And going back to the days when there were no women on the court and it was first broached back , I guess , in the Truman administration , the idea that well , you know , this is sort of a men 's club . It 's a place where people kick their shoes off and kick back . Having a woman would change things . Has it changed things , at least according to Justice Ginsburg ? @!Ms-BAZELON : Well , Justice Ginsburg has a great way of telling that story . Truman was thinking of appointing a woman named Florence Allen to the court . And one of the sitting justices at the time @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you know , we like to loosen our ties and kick off our shoes . And I just - you know , we 'd be inhibited if there was a woman here . And Justice Ginsburg 's reaction was to say , well , I just do n't know how many times I 've taken my shoes off in court . And , in fact , one - there was one instance in which she was sitting behind the bench and she did n't get up right away . And there were some speculation in the press corps that perhaps she was frail and could n't get up . And , in fact , she had to correct that impression by saying actually , she had kicked the shoe off and she was sort of searching for it down underneath the table . @!CONAN : Here 's an email we have from Maria in Fargo . Please remember , there are only nine seats on the Supreme Court , and filling everyone 's wants and need of representatives per every single group in the U.S. is simply not realistic . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ justices currently seated . That does n't mean their opinions mean less to the people . The people nominated and seated on the Supreme Court must be above the common men . Sorry , but everyday Joe just wo n't do it up there . I do n't care what color he or she may be . And I wonder what she would make of that , Sherillyn Ifill ? @!Ms-IFILL : That 's a really good point that Maria makes . And , you know , it 's something I 've been talking about since Justice Souter announced his resignation in that , you know , beyond race and gender , there are other aspects of diversity that are missing on the Supreme Court . And , in fact , Judge Sotomayor would fill , you know , certainly one of them , and that is that she has been a trial judge . There are some professional - there 's some professional diversity that I think is much needed on the Supreme Court . If you look at the profile of most of the nominees to the court @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , we can look at the profile , and it 's basically someone who 's been a prosecutor and who 's been a federal appellate judge . That 's essentially the profile . That 's essentially the track . That 's not at all , you know , the full measure of the legal profession . I mean , we almost never consider people who spent their legal career as public defenders . And yet this is , you know , an aspect of lawyering that is essential to our system of justice . And so we 're missing that perspective on the bench . You know , we 're not picking lawyers who come out of family practice . We 're not picking lawyers who have spent their lives or the bulk of their careers as politicians , as Earl Warren was . So , you know , I think that even beyond - and Maria 's right . We ca n't kind of satisfy everything . But I 'd like to see us pay some attention to this question of professional diversity and the possibility that we are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ enough , if we do that it will actually affect racial and gender diversity , because as it turns out , for example , most minority women begin their legal careers , not as prosecutors and not in private practice . Most minority women begin their legal careers as public interest lawyers . So , you know , it seems to me that if we begin to diversify the professional profile , it will have some collateral effects that will reach some of these other issues that we tend to think about when we think about diversity . @!CONAN : Sherrilyn Ifill is a professor at the University of Maryland School of Law , with us today from WEAA in Baltimore . Also with us , Emily Bazelon , a senior research scholar at the Yale Law School and senior editor at Slate . You 're listening to special coverage from NPR news . And I wonder , Emily Bazelon , on the last point that Sherrilyn Ifill was talking about , of critical importance to any president who appoints somebody to the United States Supreme Court is the idea @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to come with somebody , perhaps off the established track that Sherrilyn Ifill was talking about in terms of the court of appeals , well , that makes more difficulties getting somebody confirmed . As you 've been listening to these hearings over the past couple of days , one thing that has not been able to be assailed on Judge Sotomayor 's behalf by the Republicans is her record of achievement in both school and on the court . @!Ms-BAZELON : That 's true . You want to pick someone who has a reputation for excellence . But I agree with Sherrilyn that there are more paths than we currently seem to easily allow for . For example , if a president were to pick a governor or a senator , there would be a kind of professional courtesy , I think , extended to that person , and potentially room for a kind of wider range of expressive views in the course of one 's career than we 're seeing easily accommodated in the Sotomayor hearings . @!CONAN : Here 's an email we have from Dan in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Sotomayor can be a bully on the bench is sexist , and that were Judge Sotomayor a man , the bullying these Republicans are complaining about may well be interpreted and lauded as a no-nonsense , down-to-business , tough-but-fair work by a strong-minded man . Because she 's a strong-minded woman , some Republicans are uncomfortable and therefore afraid of her . What do you make of that , Sherrilyn Ifill ? @!Prof-IFILL : Well , I would n't attribute this only to Republicans . The first stories that came out about Judge Sotomayor did , you know , reflect these rumors that , you know , she can be a bully on the bench and she can be tough on the bench and so forth . And I think those of us who have practiced law and those of us who , you know , are women of some forcefulness , recognize that this is sometimes - and that 's not to say that there are n't women judges who lack judicial temperament . But I think the willingness and the readiness of people to repeat this rumor and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and gender . I mean , there 's something very strange about , you know , the first Latina Supreme Court justice , you know , being accused of being kind of fiery and temperamental . I mean , it hues a little bit too close to the stereotype to be devoid of any suspicion . And so the idea of closely questioning lawyers , you know , being someone who 's tough , these are qualities that are seen as positive qualities in a male judge . Think about Justice Scalia , who , you know , is very , very - can be very , very tough at oral argument , and people kind of see him as being kind of a , you know , a rascal . But they do n't see it as a negative . Or someone like Judge Richard Posner on the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals - also very , very tough judge . He 's seen as being brilliant , as being intellectual , as being tough as nails , but is not seen as a negative . So I think @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 're talking about lawyers and judges who , by their very nature , are forceful people as to whether or not we have different expectations of minorities and women . @!CONAN : And Emily Bazelon , can you tell us in 30 seconds the story that - about Judge Ginsburg and Judge O'Connor and her cutting her off ? @!Ms-BAZELON : Justice Ginsburg tells a story that at oral argument , Justice O'Connor was talking and Ginsburg asked a question . And the press reported this as a headline , something like Rude Ruth interrupts Sandra , even though when Justice Ginsburg spoke to Justice O'Connor afterwards , Justice O'Connor said , oh , Ruth , it 's fine . The boys do it all the time . @!CONAN : Thank you both for being with us today . Sherrilyn Ifill , a professor of law at University of Maryland Law School . A link to her article " Should Blacks be Disappointed , " can be found at npr.org . Click on TALK OF THE NATION . And Emily Bazelon is a senior research scholar at Yale . Her @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Web site . And we thank them both for their time . You 've been listening to special coverage from NPR News . More on the nomination later today on NPR News . I 'm Neal Conan in Washington . '

@@4072141 MICHEL @!MARTIN , host : I 'm Michel Martin , and this is TELL ME MORE from NPR News . It 's time for our Thursday International Briefing . Later in the program , we 'll check on the latest developments in Myanmar , where Nobel Peace Prize winner Aung San Suu Kyi was sentenced to an additional 18 months under house arrest . Most observers believe the move is intended to shut her out of the campaign for the 2010 elections . We 'll speak to one of her attorneys a little later in the program . But first , we are following the travels of U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton in Africa . She is in Liberia today , the sixth stop on her seven nation tour of the continent . Her trip ends on Friday with a visit to the island nation of Cape Verde . Last week , we looked into the U.S. 's foreign policy and economic priorities in and for Africa . This week , we wanted bring you the perspective of African journalists to tell us how Secretary Clinton 's trip is being received and what it means in their respective @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Collins , he is a freelance journalist in Monrovia , Liberia . Ferial Haffajee , she is editor in chief of South Africa 's City Press . She joins us from Johannesburg . And Constance Ikokwu , deputy editor for Nigeria 's This Day newspaper , and she joins us from Lagos . Welcome all of you , thank you for joining us. @!Ms-CONSTANCE-IKOKW : Thank you . @!Mr-PRINCE-COLLINS- : Thank you . @!Ms-FERIAL-HAFFAJEE : Thank you . @!MARTIN : Before we go into each country in detail , I wanted to ask each of you what 's been the general reaction to Secretary Clinton 's visit and what 's the coverage been like ? Prince , let 's start with you because Secretary Clinton is in Liberia today . What 's been the general reaction to her visit and what 's been the coverage like ? @!Mr-COLLINS : As I speak to you , the Secretary of State has just arrived in Monrovia at the state house in the capital . And so thousands of people have turned out to welcome the high U.S. diplomat to Liberia . And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ People from across the country who can not make their way here are listening to the FM radio to hear what she got to say about Liberia 's recovery process . @!MARTIN : And Constance , before the Secretary came to Liberia , she was in Nigeria , what was the reaction there to her visit ? @!Ms-IKOKWU : There was a good coverage of Secretary Hillary Clinton 's visit to Nigeria . She was highly expected here . There were two views about her visit . Some were of the view that she should n't come here to give us a lecture about good governance and corruption . And others were - saw it as an opportunity to discuss with her like civil society groups about the problems that we are facing in Nigeria . So , I think that she has been well received here and I think that she enjoyed her time here . @!MARTIN : And of course , Ferial , same question to you . South Africa which was last week or earlier in the trip . So , how was her trip there covered @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ business-like and professional . People did n't go quite as crazy as we did when President Obama visited Ghana . I think there was far more emotional interest in that visit . This time it was about trade , good governance , reestablishing a decent relationship between the U.S. and South Africa with none of the rock star quality of the previous visit . @!MARTIN : And why is that ? Is it simply a different job ? Is it that just somehow the foreign minister or secretary of state just does n't carry the same star power or are there other things ? @!Ms-HAFFAJEE : I think our continent and our country has taken ownership of President Obama , it feels like a long lost son or a brother who comes to visit . With the secretary of state , most media covering it as a very important geopolitical moment , but it did n't have people lining the sides of streets , T- shirts that you saw during the Obama visit . @!MARTIN : And Constance , I want to pick up on something that you mentioned . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . One is , on the one hand , yes , we welcome this visit , we welcome the interest . On the other hand , there is a sense of , we do not need to hear any lectures from you . And , I just want to read a little bit of an editorial that ran in This Day by Titi Amuta(ph) . The title is , I sincerely hope that your Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is not stopping over here to lecture us on good governance , corruption and the now familiar unflattering themes that dominate international discussion on Africa . And it goes on to say that the U.S. has played a role in the global economic meltdown , and thus , perhaps is not in the best position to lecture Africa or any other countries on some of these matters . Is this a widely held view ? I mean , of course , just in fairness the editorial does go on to say that some of the things that Western leaders do talk about are legitimate to talk about , like corruption and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in the best position to lecture at this point , and that perhaps a better approach would be one of more sort of mutual respect . Is this is a widely held view ? @!Ms-IKOKWU : First of all , that ( unintelligible ) you read was written by a columnist . It 's not an editorial view of the paper . It was written someone who writes a column on the back page of the paper . @!MARTIN : Fair point . @!Ms-IKOKWU : Secondly , like I said earlier , there are people who feel that Nigeria already knows they have a lot of problems , including electoral reform , the Niger Delta conflict , peacekeeping and a couple of other things . They 're already working on it , and do not want to see a situation whereby the Secretary comes to Nigeria and talks to Nigerians in a manner that does not show respect to them . The other view is that , well , we have this problem , but in any way that the U.S. can help Nigerians would be open to that . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ saw Secretary Clinton doing yesterday was to say to Nigerians that it is up to you to solve most of the problems that you have and that the U.S. is here to support . And I think that that was what was expected of her . This country knows that we 're facing serious challenges . You go to the shops , you enter public transport , everybody is talking about the problems that we have in this country . And most of these issues would have to dealt by the Nigerian government . More than 80 percent of the problems we have will have to be solved by the government . We 're already having debates about where we 're coming from , where we are and where we are going to . And I think that the position that she took yesterday was okay . @!MARTIN : Okay , so that was going to be my question - was , do you feel she did take an appropriate tone , whatever that means , with the leaders of Nigeria ? Do you feel that she came to lecture @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ your view , was there - or in the view of other observers an attitude of mutuality , if you will ? @!Ms-IKOKWU : I think that the tone was mild . But she made up her point all the same . She talked about Nigeria strengthening the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission , which is the agency that fights corruption in Nigeria . She harped on electoral reform , which is an issue that we 've been discussing for almost two years now . She talked about the Niger delta and the amnesty that the government has decided to grant to militants in that part of the country . And she actually said that the U.S. was ready to support Nigeria if they need help in that area . She talked about a U.S.-Nigeria bi-national commission , which should be an instrument through which we can collaborate on a range of issues . She talked about Nigeria 's peace keeping effort in Africa and praised what we have done in the past in Sierra Leone and Liberia , in Somalia , and other places . So , I think @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ president , and when she spoke with our foreign minister Mr. Ojo Maduekwe . And she left Nigeria , I think that we were relieved that she did not come to the country talking to all in an important manner . But apart from her visit , the challenge now is up to the Nigerian government to begin to work on those issues . They have started already on some issues , but I think that we have to follow it through . The next election , which is in 2011 , is a big issue and I think that they should start work on it from now , before the election . @!MARTIN : Okay , let me just jump in briefly to say , if you 're just joining us , I 'm Michel Martin and you are listening to TELL ME MORE from NPR News . I 'm speaking with journalists Constance Ikokwu from Nigeria , Ferial Haffajee from South Africa , and Prince Collins from Liberia . We 're talking about Secretary of State Hillary Clinton 's visit to Africa . She is in Liberia today @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ report by Liberia 's Truth and Reconciliation Commission recommended banning current president Ellen Johnson Sirleaf from holding public office . The commission was established to investigate and address crimes committed during the country 's civil war . Johnson Sirleaf , who has had quite warm relations with both the current administration and the previous Bush administration , is accused of quote unquote , " supporting , " former Liberian leader and now indicted war criminal Charles Taylor . Is this going to make for an awkward encounter for Secretary of State Clinton ? Are these charges supported , for example , by the country to the degree that you can assess this ? @!Mr-COLLINS : The Liberians in her spirit to , you know , what Secretary of State Clinton has to say especially about the recommendations from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission , that recommendation said the president of Liberia Ellen Johnson Sirleaf should not hold public office for some 30 years because they said she provided some support to war crime indicted Mr. Charles Taylor who is the former president of this country . And so people here @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ recommendations . So , they 're hoping that Hilary Clinton will address a lot of issues , though she would talk about corruption and bad governance and crimes and other issues . But they are in high spirit to hear her about U.S. position on the TRSC recommendations regarding this matter . @!MARTIN : Would her comments be welcome or is this an internal matter ? @!Mr-COLLINS : In our history , America has done immense contribution to our own recovery process . When the war started Liberians were looking at the U.S. to come in and sort of provide support and sort of ensure that the war come to an end . So , if the U.S. can come down and give us a position , clear-cut position on all the TRSC report , Liberian people are of the opinion that , yes , it will yield some results . @!MARTIN : Ferial , the Secretary of State Clinton was in South Africa on Saturday and she met with President Jacob Zuma . On the one hand she praised government officials for President Zuma 's new policy on HIV/AIDS @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ some disagreements with the South African government in recent years with prior administrations . For example , South Africa 's role in advancing political reforms in Zimbabwe . Do you have any sense of what came out of those meetings between Secretary Clinton and the president ? @!Ms-HAFFAJEE : Well , first of all , I discerned a much more complex and layered policy position from the U.S. to Africans , to South African , particularly I 've witnessed for the past 10 years . So that was good to see . I think that the president and Secretary of State agreed on some things like Zimbabwe and AIDS , and that was a big advance on previous years . But they agreed to disagree on other things like the indictment of Omar al-Bashir , the Sudanese president , and also on Africa . There was a lot of media coverage in South Africa on the U.S. seeking a number of different bases on which to place Africa , certainly South Africa is not open to that . And it has pushed against locating such a base on the continent @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ but when we come back we 're going to continue this conversation about Secretary of State Hilary Clinton 's visit to Africa with Liberian freelance journalist Prince Collins , Ferial Haffajee , editor in chief of South Africa 's City Press Newspaper , and Constance Ikokwu , deputy editor of Nigeria 's This Day newspaper . Please stay with us on TELL ME MORE from NPR News . I 'm Michel Martin . qwq @ ( Soundbite-of-music I 'm Michel Martin and this TELL ME MORE from NPR News . Coming up , he was raised in the Midwest and grew up listening to Led Zeppelin . She was born in Ghana and grew up singing gospel . So , how did Sam and Ruby become one of the most exciting new acoustical acts on the musical scene ? We 'll find out and hear songs from their debut album , " The Here and the Now . " That 's a little later in the program . But first , we 're going to continue our conversation about Secretary of State Hillary Clinton 's visit to Africa . She @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to make in Cape Verde before returning to the U.S. And we 're getting reactions from African journalists covering the trip across Africa . Our guests are Prince Collins , a freelance journalist in Monrovia , Liberia . Ferial Haffajee , editor in chief of South Africa 's City Press . She joins us from Johannesburg . And Constance Ikokwu , deputy editor of Nigeria 's This Day newspaper , she joins us from Lagos . Ferial , overall , assessing Secretary of State Clinton 's visit throughout the continent so far , it 's been a long trip . She 's made headlines back here for some things that have not been so flattering for example , a rather testy exchange with a student . @!Ms-HAFFAJEE : Yes . @!MARTIN : And - but just I wanted to ask you , just assessing that totality of the trip so far , what 's made the biggest impression on you ? @!Ms-HAFFAJEE : I like the humility of some of her interactions in South Africa where she told a group of business people that in fact the U.S. had a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ couple of other bigger economies in Africa had insulated ourselves from the global recession and also had much better credit seeking checks in place . I thought that on Zimbabwe she pushed as hard as she needed to . But I also enjoyed that she gave kudos where they were due and did n't really come across like a school mom , which is what we 've come to expect of U.S. foreign policy on our continent . @!MARTIN : Constance , what about you ? What - just assessing the whole trip , what has struck you ? @!Ms-IKOKWU : I think that the trip is okay . There was n't a huge excitement over here concerning visit in Nigeria . But I think that the civil society groups who had an opportunity to meet with her were quite satisfied that they were able to do that . I think that from now onwards , the ball is in the court of the Nigerian government to begin to improve the economy and the political system for the benefit of Nigeria . Because honestly , we have huge issues in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I think that we are at a crossroads and between now and next year , the government really has to work hard towards improving the country for the benefit of the people . If not , I do n't know what is going to happen in this country . @!MARTIN : So , elections are next year . @!Ms-IKOKWU : Well , the elections are in 2011 . But right now there 's so much poverty in the country , things are really difficult , you know . So , I think that in the next one year , there has to be something , there has to be concrete steps taken to improve the livelihood of people . And I think that when you push people to the wall you get to a stage , they begin to react . Some of the religious conflict that we 've seen in recent days is a mixture of ignorance and poverty and unemployment , you know . So that 's one thing that in the next one year , the government has to show up that they have what it take @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ point A to point B in order to improve the lives of people . @!MARTIN : So , what I hear you saying is that really the major challenges for these countries are - they have to be led internally . That the U.S. may play a role but is not the major player in addressing the concerns that are most pressing to the people of your countries . Having said that , Constance , I 'm going to ask you , and then Ferial , I 'm going to give you the final word , are there steps , though , that Nigerians would like to see the U.S. take in furtherance of the issues that are most pressing to the Nigerian people ? @!Ms-IKOKWU : When it comes to the civil society groups , I think that they want to see the U.S. to continue to apply gentle pressure on the government . And continue to make comment when issues that affect them comes up . For instance , the issues of corruption , the issues of electoral reform . That does not mean - the way and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ important . At the same time , the ball is in the court of the Nigerian government , which is a sovereign country . We have a government and the government has to act . @!MARTIN : Ferial , can I have a final thought from you ? Are there other steps that you would like to see the U.S. take in the coming months and years to build on the relationship that has been established with this visit ? @!Ms-HAFFAJEE : Well , I think that the Africa Growth and Opportunity Act , it can be expanded a lot more . I think we can see many benefits coming out of the growing trade between our continent and the United States . Also , I do think that the U.S. bringing up the issues of good governance is very , very important in an era where the other superpower that 's really making its mark in Africa is China . And for - and it really puts good governance issues right on the back burner in its dealings with us. @!MARTIN : Ferial Haffajee is the editor in chief @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ South Africa . We were also joined by Constance Ikokwu . She 's the deputy editor for This Day newspaper . And she joined us from Lagos , Nigeria . We were also joined earlier by Prince Collins . He 's a freelance journalist who joined us from Monrovia , Liberia . I thank you all so much for speaking with us. @!Ms-IKOKWU : Thank you very much , Michel . @!Ms-HAFFAJEE : Thank you for having me. '

@@4072241 @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) All right , Nick . Thank you for the reporting this morning . We 're gon na turn now to the economy . Vice President Biden 's reference that out-of-work Americans feel like this is a depression , may have touched a nerve . In the latest ABC News /'Washington Post " poll , President Obama 's handling of the economy slipped below majority approval for the first time . @GRAPHICS @GRAPHICS @GRAPHICS @GRAPHICS @GRAPHICS @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) And this comes as the housing market shows signs of needing more help . ABC 's senior White House correspondent Jake Tapper is in Washington . He has more on this for us . Good morning , Jake . @!JAKE-TAPPER-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Good morning , Chris . Well , this morning the Senate Banking Committee will hold a hearing on extending the housing credit set to expire in December . Meanwhile , eight months after the administration unveiled the - a plan to help those with mortgage problems , it 's unveiling a new plan for homeowners . All the while , unemployment continues to skyrocket. @!JAKE-TAPPER-@1-ABC# @(Voiceover) The Vice President recalled an old adage that when the guy across town @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . When your brother is , it 's a recession . And when you 're out of work , it 's a depression . @!VICE-PRESIDENT-JOE# It 's a depression for millions of Americans , through no fault of their own . @!JAKE-TAPPER-@1-ABC# @(Voiceover) It seemed a change in tone from last month when the Vice President said of the stimulus , ' In my wildest dreams , I never thought it would work this well . " Even with the Dow hitting 10,000 , unemployment will continue to get worse . The White House knows more and more Americans need help . And they 're looking for ways to provide it . This week , the administration announced a new program to try to restart the housing market for low to moderate income , first-time homebuyers . State housing agencies will be able to provide new mortgages , with Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae providing credit lines , backstopped by the federal government . @!SUSAN-DEWEY-@1PRES# This plan will really help the states provide affordable housing to first-time homebuyers . Our role is to make sure not only that people are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ stay in the homes . @!JAKE-TAPPER-@1-ABC# @(Voiceover) It 's a program that has its skeptics. @!PETER-MORICI-@1PRO# State local housing finance administrations provide a lot of assistance where it 's needed . But we should n't be fooled into thinking this will help hundreds of thousands of people very quickly . It 's more like tens of thousands and slowly . @!LESLEE-RAMOS-@1WOR# In the past , I 've tried - thousands of things that they 've said . New programs that they 're gon na help the homeowners . And nothing has worked out . @!JAKE-TAPPER-@1-ABC# @(Voiceover) Three years ago , Leslee Ramos bought a three-bedroom townhouse in Malibu Bay , Florida for $255,000 . Since then , the value of the home sank to $121,000 . She needed housing help . But Ramos 's bigger problem , she lost her job . @!LESLEE-RAMOS-@1WOR# Right now , I 'm so far behind that I 'm just afraid that the bank is gon na foreclose on my property . @!JAKE-TAPPER-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) And that 's the bigger problem the White House faces , massive unemployment . The White House this week is likely @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ businesses so they can hire , among other things . That - they will raise the credit limit for SBA loans and provide access to small businesses to some of that $700 billion in TARP funds . Robin ? @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) All right . Jake , thank you . And joining us now for a reality check on the economy , Liz Anne Sonders . She 's the chief investment strategist for Charles Schwab . And joining us from Nashville , Dave Ramsey , host of ' The Dave Ramsey Show " on the Fox Business Network and on radio . Good morning to you both . @!LIZ-ANNE-SONDERS-@# Good morning . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Thank you so much . Dave , let 's start with you first . What are your listeners telling you ? Does it feel like a depression to them ? @!DAVE-RAMSEY-@1HOST# No , it does n't . And that 's a really unfortunate choice of terms for the Vice President of the United States to use . That was - political drama queen mode . Yes , if you 're out of work or you 're in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Yes , it feels like a depression for them . I do n't doubt that . But you should n't send that verbal , those verbal waves blowing across the land and , for that matter , across the world when you 're the Vice President . There are certainly some folks like the lady you were dealing with there in the - in the piece just a second ago that are struggling and facing foreclosure , though . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) So where do you see the economy right now ? And you 've , you 've said all along , real estate will lead the way , should lead the way . @!DAVE-RAMSEY-@1HOST# It is leading the way . We 're seeing real estate pick up considerably . We 've got 4.5% fixed rates , and that is driving the market . The $8,000 tax credit is driving the first-time homebuyers into the market , the - the financially healthy ones . And so , real estate will lead the way out . @GRAPHICS @!DAVE-RAMSEY-@1HOST# But we 're not going to bounce back out of this . We 're @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , we 've started to see the , of course , the , the stock market recover . We 've all seen the Dow top 10,000 . And lastly , and sadly lastly , is gon na be the jobs that are gon na follow out . They were the last thing to go down going into this . And I think they 're gon na be the last thing coming out . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) I think a lot of people feel that way , Dave . Liz Anne , talking about jobs , the unemployment rate , 9.8%. @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# Mm-hmm . @GRAPHICS @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) There are a few top economists that say we 're gon na top 10% . And it could stay that way for an - an extended period of time . That that could be the new normal , if you will . Do you agree with that ? @!LIZ-ANNE-SONDERS-@# Well , I certainly hope that that 's not the case . And I think there are some , some pluses to just how dire things got in terms of jobs . You know , that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to use to describe our economy . But if you think back a year ago , there was grave concern that that 's what we were heading into . And as a result of that , companies braced for the worst and , I think , ended up cutting probably about 50% more jobs than what the , what we know in hindsight , the worst of the economy suggested they should have . So I do think there 's an opportunity for a bounce back . And given how strong corporate profits have been , somewhat thanks to the job cuts and all the productivity that 's now embedded , that tends to be a good leading indicator of jobs . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) But will those profits lead to new jobs , because part of the reason they have the profits is because they cut jobs . @!LIZ-ANNE-SONDERS-@# When we start to see demand come back in , and we 're starting to see it . We 're starting to see some of the natural juices for the economy , those natural animal spirits kicking in now here . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is employment very lean right now , inventories are lean . Production is very low . I think we 're gon na get that coiled spring that I 've talked about on this show before , that snapback , that is , I think , has the potential to be sharper than a lot of people think . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Yeah . And you have talked about that quite a bit . Dave , wan na go back to you because you alluded to Jake Tapper 's piece and the woman that we saw there . And foreclosures , we 're seeing that more and more . And foreclosures are - are leading to people going to homeless shelters . That 's a , a fact that we have not seen before . Usually , if you lost your home , you were able to perhaps rent another property . But in , in the Midwest , it 's at 15% . I know that you do n't believe in government stepping in too much . But in this regard , if it can help people stay out of homeless @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Obama administration has launched several initiatives to try to cause mortgage companies to modify the mortgages . Honestly , we 've got financial counselors all across the United States working with people in crises . We 've yet to see one of those things actually happen . The , the banks are so bogged down with the short sales . They 're so large and so incompetent that - it is , has been a huge strain just to get people to actually respond in these situations . So , we 're not seeing the actual homelessness thing . I mean , there 's some definite percentage points there . But most folks are moving to a rental . And most folks are not unemployed . We are still under 10% . And so that means 90% are employed . Just a lot of them are underemployed , and they 've lost values in their home . And so they 're having to take a step back in their finances to hit solid ground to start again . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) But according to a new study , one out @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ foreclosed on . And that figure is 15% in the Midwest . Liz Anne , end on you , the administration , how difficult a job to stem these foreclosures ? @!LIZ-ANNE-SONDERS-@# You know , it 's an extremely difficult job . And I think there 's so only so much that can and should be done . What we , what we unfortunately know is that with the lax lending , with the lax regulatory oversight , with the rate environment , we , we put a lot of people in homes that in many cases they , they could n't even afford the first payment . So we have to be careful about not establishing the same conditions again for a problem down the road . So , I think what needs to be done is to try to maybe get these people into a rental situation , as opposed to just back into homeownership. @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Do n't wan na go backwards . @!LIZ-ANNE-SONDERS-@# Yeah . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Liz Anne , thank you so much . @!LIZ-ANNE-SONDERS-@# Thanks , Robin . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Dave , have a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!DAVE-RAMSEY-@1HOST# You too . Thanks . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) And now , Bianna Golodryga has the morning 's other major news , starting with a NASA scientist accused of spying . Bianna ? '

@@4072341 @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) It is , Sam , thank you . That 's coming up in our next half hour . But now , mixed messages on breast cancer screening . Earlier , we told you about an independent panel 's new recommendation about mammograms , saying that women should not get them until they turn 50 . And they only need them every two years instead of every year . This is a departure from current guidelines , as you know , which advocate regular mammograms starting at age 40 . So , what should patients do ? @GRAPHICS @GRAPHICS @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Voiceover) These are the faces of breast cancer . Mothers , daughters , sisters . Anne Marie Flynn was 41 when she had her second annual mammogram , the diagnoses , stage three breast cancer . Her tumor was small , but aggressive . @!ANNE-MARIE-FLYNN-@# If I had not gone in for a routine mammogram at that age , I would have a very different prognosis . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Voiceover) After two surgeries , chemotherapy and radiation , the mom of two has been tumor-free for five years . She believes all women over 40 should get annual screenings. @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ It 's important that when they 're making these recommendations , that they realize the affect that it has on families . @GRAPHICS @GRAPHICS @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Breast cancer is the leading cause of cancer death for women under 50 , causing some doctors to worry the new guidelines could prevent women from making a life-saving choice . @!DR-MARIE-SAVARD-@1# @(Off-camera) We know mammograms are not perfect . But they are the best things we have to diagnose women early . These guidelines will give insurance companies the excuse not to cover these potentially life-saving mammograms in young women . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Voiceover) But health professionals who devised the new recommendations , say mammograms can cause harm , too , like overexposure to radiation . They advise women to wait until they are 50 , and get a screening not every year , but every two years . @!DOCTOR-DIANA-PETIT# When screening beginning at 40 to 49 , the benefits are smaller . The false positive rates are higher , than when screening at older ages . @GRAPHICS @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Voiceover) 44-year-old Karen Clark agrees . She wrote us to say that mammograms may offer @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with stage three breast cancer . I found the lump myself . The mammogram in January completely missed it . It likely had been growing for several years . " @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) For more , we 're joined by two renowned breast cancer experts . Dr. Susan Love is the president of the Dr. Susan Love Research Foundation . She joins us there in California , and she supports these new recommendations . Dr. Marisa Weiss , an oncologist and the president of breastcancer.org , she supports more frequent screening , and joins us here in the studio . Good morning to you both . And I , I want to get the bottom line from both of you about your recommendations , about what you believe these recommendations should be , and your bottom line . Dr. Weiss , let me start with you . @!DOCTOR-MARISA-WEIS# Well , I think that these proposed changes in the guidelines represent a drastic step backwards . These are old studies . These are old technologies . And the study is using this old information to give future breast cancer guidelines for screening @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is the most common cancer to affect women . And mammography is the only test proven to save lives . So , I believe that these guidelines are not an improvement . They 're neglectful. @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Dr. Love ? @!DOCTOR-SUSAN-LOVE-# Well , I actually do n't agree . Mammography is the only tool shown to save lives , but in women over 50 . It 's never been shown to work in - women under 50 . And the studies actually are very good , randomized , controlled studies . The newer techniques , digital mammography , have not been shown to be any better than the older techniques . And the problem is , that they 're not , that there 's a risk to them , that the radiation risk is higher in younger women , that the ability to find cancers is n't as good , that the - ability to miss cancers is much higher . So , what we need to be doing is not using a test that does n't work and has risks , but finding something that really does work , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ cancer and stopping it . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Dr. Weiss , when we look at , around the world , the recommendations are what the new recommendations , new guidelines are , 50 , at the age of 50 , not 40 . So , is it , is it going back or going forward , that we are getting in line with what the rest of the world is doing ? @!DOCTOR-MARISA-WEIS# Well , this is , it 's not true that the entire rest of the world is doing this . Take Sweden , for example . All women in the population of Sweden get mammography starting at age 40 . And women between 40 and 49 in Sweden , they saw a great decrease in the risk of dying of breast cancer in that population , it was as high as 40% improvement . And so , I think that the screening guidelines in the United States should lead the world . And I do n't see those other - those other countries as setting an example that we should follow . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Dr. Love , I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . No , I was going to say , our results are not , not any better than any of these other countries that actually do n't screen women from 40 to 50 . The issue is not whether women get breast cancer at 40 . Of course , they do . And it 's not whether some women can find the cancers on mammogram . It can . The issue is a public policy issue . It 's whether it can change the outcome in sufficient number of women . And the studies that you 're referring to , you have to follow the women well for 10 to 12 years . So , they 're in their 50s by the time you see a benefit . And by 50 , the breast tissue is less dense . And mammography does become more useful . So , the issue is , is not depriving young women of their God-given right to be radiated . It 's really , let 's not give them radiation if it 's not really helping them . And let 's find something better . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is the best that we have , and digital mammography , which is available today . @!DOCTOR-SUSAN-LOVE-# Not in young women . @!DOCTOR-MARISA-WEIS# Is superior to the film mammography that was in these studies . @!DOCTOR-SUSAN-LOVE-# Not in the studies . Not in the study that compared them . @!DOCTOR-MARISA-WEIS# Particularly in women who are between ages 40 and 49 . And the reality is , is that in terms of radiation exposure , a flight from New York to Denver and back gives you more radiation exposure than one mammogram . So , there 's no question ... @!DOCTOR-SUSAN-LOVE-# That 's right , but if you do them every year , 40 to 50 , it 's cumulative . And indeed , causes as many cancers as it cures . And ... @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Voiceover) But , that was n't really given as one of the reasons why in the study . @!DOCTOR-MARISA-WEIS# The studies that demonstrated an increase in breast cancer risk , supposedly attributed to mammography , were contamination studies , where women who were not screened , when they felt a lump , or had a symptom @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ made it look like the women getting mammograms had more cancers from the mammography , which is not the case . @!DOCTOR-SUSAN-LOVE-# It 's just calculating from the radiation , it 's not . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Dr. Love , Dr. Love , just a moment here , please , thank you . Because I talked to you , when I was going through my diagnosis . I was 46 . No history in my family . 70 to 80% of people who are diagnosed with breast cancer have no previous history , even though you - tell us to be aware of that . I found it with a lump . The mammogram did not detect it . The ultrasound did . You heard the woman in the piece who said she does n't believe that she would even be alive today if it were these new recommendations . How do you respond when people say these things to you and feel that because of early detection , they 're still with us today ? @!DOCTOR-SUSAN-LOVE-# Well , I think , you know , the problem is , we 've @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we 've made it sound like every cancer grows at a constant rate . And they all can be found early at a curable state . And I wish that were true , but there 's some cancers that are very aggressive , that you 're , no matter when you find them , they 're really going to still be bad . There are some that are very slow-growing , and it does n't matter when you find those . And you can shift some a little bit . And that works a lot better in , in women after 50 , when their breasts are less dense , than it does in younger women . The experience you had is the more common one . Where mammography does n't show a cancer and you have a lump . And a lot of times , it gives women a false sense of security . So , this is n't , we 're not talking about something that 's completely harmless . We 're really talking about something that has a downside , as well as an upside . And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the world , the government covers mammography for everybody . In this country , that 's not the case . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) We 're running out of time . So , bottom line from you both . A woman watching this morning , and men , because men get breast cancer , too , if you have breast tissue , you 're , you 're susceptible . Just quickly , if you 're a woman or you 're someone watching today , what do you do ? What do you do ? @!DOCTOR-MARISA-WEIS# We use the best tools that you have . And I tell my own patients , start getting your mammogram at age 40 , get it annually after that . Mammography can save your lives . And if you 're at high risk , you might even start screening earlier . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Susan , quickly ? @!DOCTOR-SUSAN-LOVE-# And I say if you 're at average risk , get your first mammogram at age 50 . Be aware of your breasts . If you feel something abnormal , get it checked out . And join the army @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the cause of this disease and stop it . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Voiceover) I was hoping you were going to get that in . I know you 've been doing great work with that . Dr. Susan Love , - Dr. Marisa , Marisa Weiss , thank you very , very much . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) This is a heated discussion . Go online for more information . And please let us know what you think . Go to our shoutout board . We 'll be right back . COMMERCIAL BREAK '

@@4072441 @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER-@1# I was wondering if maybe if you checked out some of the statistics about legalizing prostitution , gambling , drugs and nonviolent crime , in order to stimulate some of the economy . @!PRESIDENT-BARACK-O# I appreciate the boldness of your question . That will not be my jobs strategy . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) So , we know what 's not in President Obama 's new jobs program . He 's going to lay out some new ideas on Tuesday . We 're going to talk about that in a minute , but let 's begin with Afghanistan on our " Roundtable " . I 'm joined , as always , by George Will , Peggy Noonan of " The Wall Street Journal " , the president of the Council on Foreign Relations Richard Haass , and Katrina vanden Heuvel of " The Nation . " @GRAPHICS @GRAPHICS @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Voiceover) And George , I want to start by showing everyone a poll that we had earlier this week , of presidents approval in wartime . You see Johnson , Truman and George W Bush there , basically ski slopes , as they dealt with unpopular wars . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) We @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ exit strategy that President Obama has proposed . And he said it was in our vital national interest . But clearly , there is political imperative at play . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Those were unpopular wars . And so is this one . And there 's really no precedent that I can think for the public again rallying behind a war that they have decided they did n't like in the first place . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Well the initial support for the President 's speech . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Sure . For the speech . But this is , this is not the McChrystal plan . Let me say this in defense of the President . He 's - McChrystal proposed , essentially , nation-building , meeting the " needs " of the Afghan people , his words , by , with , and through the almost nonexistent Afghan government . This is not that . This is an increase in forces in order to constrict the mission . But this is going to be harder than it was in Iraq . In Iraq , you had a literate society . You @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ important , when our surge began in Iraq , the tide had already turned . There had been the Sunni awakening in Anbar . They had turned against al Qaeda in Mesopotamia , who were largely foreign fighters . The Taliban are there . When you asked Secretary Gates about the Helmand operation , he said , very tellingly . It 's going very well wherever the marines are present . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) They ca n't be everywhere . @!**29;519;TOOLONG @(Off-camera) And as long as they 're present . But they wo n't be there forever . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Richard , except you write in " Newsweek " magazine this week , Richard that this should be labeled the no exit plan . @!RICHARD-HAASS-@1PR# Well wars are always easier to get into than out of . And this is unlikely to be an exception to that . We 'll do the surge . And as George , as I think correctly pointed out , as long as we 're there , things will be better . But I think it would have to be the triumph of hope over experience @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and we go back , say , to pre-surge levels , that any improvements will endure . That would mean that the Afghan government had picked up tremendous capacity . And that the Pakistani government had discovered tremendous will . And I would think both of those are open questions . So odds are , to me , that the United States will find itself in Afghanistan for some time to come , along , by the way , in Iraq for some time to come . @!KATRINA-VANDEN-HEU# Presidents Obama is at risk of losing part of his coalition . I 'm deeply saddened by this speech because the facts on the ground do n't lend itself to this policy . At a time of true unemployment of 17% , we 're sending 100 - we 're sending 30,000 additional troops , for a 100,000-force , at $100 billion , when his own national security adviser said there was no national vital interest at stake . We 're going to destabilize ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Said clearly there was . @!KATRINA-VANDEN-HEU# Yeah , but I mean this was a few weeks @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ armed country , Pakistan . And , you know , wars suck the oxygen out - George know - out of reform presidencies . We 've seen it throughout our history . And so the prospect of the reform agenda President Obama ran on is one that is at risk . And I think we could have done a very smart counterterrorism strategy at far lesser cost . And we have national security threats around the world . This will limit his options in that area . And I think , you know , the larger problem is we need a new national security . President Obama ran not as an anti-war president , anti-Iraq war . And he is not hostage to the mindset in Washington . But he is to a certain extent because ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) But he also ran on finishing the war in Afghanistan . @!KATRINA-VANDEN-HEU# But he 's ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) But Peggy , let me bring this to you . Because I think one of the things Katrina says is something that was weighing on the President 's mind at the beginning of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the rest of his agenda . But by the time ... @!PEGGY-NOONAN-@1WAL# Sure . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) ... he gave that speech , he , he talked about that , but also seemed quite at peace with the decision . @!PEGGY-NOONAN-@1WAL# Oh , he did . But , look , I think the key number here is nine . It 's not 30,000 troops . It 's not July 2011 . It 's nine . That 's the number of years we have been in Afghanistan . That is enough time for the American people to essentially decide how they 're viewing it . I think they will probably give more time to the President after his decision . But I also think it is up to the people to decide . And we 'll see how they 're deciding , month-by-month , in the polls . How they feel about this war . No president , certainly nine years in , can execute and lead a war if the people are not with him . He 's not only in trouble with his base . I think he , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you 're probably ... @!PEGGY-NOONAN-@1WAL# ... of convincing people after nine years , this is still good . It 's viable . We 've got a new plan here , it can work . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) So at best , he 's bought himself a little bit of time . The clock is ticking to , at best , again , 2011 . But we have no clarity , talking to both Secretary Gates and Clinton , about what happens in July 2011. @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Not much because the situation - the President did , with a little bit of rhetoric , leave wiggle room . And he will wiggle . That is the conditions on the ground are not going do be dramatically different then than they are now . Therefore , his hope of beginning withdrawal , 12 , 13 , 14 months before the next presidential election , is probably going to go a glimmering. @!RICHARD-HAASS-@1PR# That 's exactly right . And the answer is none of us knows how this is going to work out . My hunch is that after 18 months , it 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ keep coming back then to , George , the President really has to answer , not simply the question of will it work , but is it worth it ? And I simply do n't think they 've made the case either that Afghanistan is central to the global effort against terrorism . Quite honestly , it 's not . This is not 1991 , or this is not , rather , 2001 , right after 9/11 . Afghanistan is not the home or the sanctuary for al Qaeda . Nor is Afghanistan central to Pakistan , which is what really matters . It 's ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Well that 's the key point , though . @!RICHARD-HAASS-@1PR# Right . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Because you saw a fundamental difference there between Secretary Gates on the one hand and Senator Feingold on the other . Does putting more troops in Afghanistan make the situation more secure in Pakistan or less ? @!RICHARD-HAASS-@1PR# It makes it worse in the sense that you 're pushing a lot of bad guys across the border . The biggest question is regardless of whatever we do in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the seriousness about cracking down on what has essentially become an internal threat of their own long-term survival ? Up until now , they have not . And the answer is obviously why . @!KATRINA-VANDEN-HEU# Can I just ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Let me put the question to you this way . If they see us leave Afghanistan , would n't the Pakistanis say , we 're next ? They 're going to abandon us again . @!KATRINA-VANDEN-HEU# No . I think it 's much more complicated . And our occupation of Pakistan is going to deepen divisions in Pakistan and destabilize an already fragile civilian government . I mean , we are already engaged in a secret war in Pakistan . " The Nation 's " cover story this week , based on multiple sources , shows that Blackwater is working with a joint special operations command , planning targeted assassinations and drone campaigns . This is fundamentally destabilizing . We need another policy . The larger overlay of all of this in my view , is our overreaction to the terrible , horrible tragedy of 9/11 , has led @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ wage a conventional war , which we are doing in Afghanistan , against an odious , horrifying set of ideas or tactics . And until we end that , we are , as an American people , going to have a de facto policy of permanent warfare . Do we want that in this country ? @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) I 'm going to bring up a Pew poll that shows perhaps we don't. @!KATRINA-VANDEN-HEU# We do n't . I do n't ... @GRAPHICS @GRAPHICS @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Voiceover) It was fascinating this week the Pew Center did a look at the sense of isolationist sentiment in the country . Should we be minding our own business ? 49% say that we should be minding our own business . That 's the highest it 's been in years , the highest in 40 years . And , Peggy , that gets to your point . Not only a war-weary nation , a nation turning inward . @!PEGGY-NOONAN-@1WAL# That 's a post-9/11 poll . Do you know what I mean ? That was not the mood after September 2001 . A number of things to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that might be created and suck in more trouble if American troops just abruptly left . It seems to me , that is a destabilizing move . And if Obama is just buying time , in effect , as those - as Russ Feingold said , it 's going to take time then I think that will probably seem reasonable to people . @!RICHARD-HAASS-@1PR# But we should not just leave . And there 's a choice between doing as much as we 're now doing and leaving . You know , sometimes there is a gray in between area . The middle course is not always wrong . And rather than simply surging more troops , which is not clear to me is going to work , we could take a lot of the rest of the strategy , which is , by the way , where we 're going to end up , which is more emphasis on training , not just in Kabul but around the country , a greater emphasis to win over some of the Taliban , some counterterrorism and so forth . We 're going @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ commensurate with our interests . We have to avoid these situations where 's we do everything , which is more than situations warrant , or we simply abandon a country like Afghanistan . @!KATRINA-VANDEN-HEU# But at the , at the end of the day , Afghanistan , Pakistan , this region , will require political and diplomatic solutions . I interviewed Gorbachev in September . Secretary Gates , in my view , took the wrong lessons from the soviet invasion in Afghanistan and the collapse of the Soviet Union . Gorbachev says very clearly , and he has had insight into this , political , diplomatic , regional work needs to be done . No one is talking about abandoning . But the idea of pouring money and troops in , the US footprint growing larger is we are going to be an occupying force . Barack Obama spoke eloquently about we are not an occupying force . We are perceived as such . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) And George , he 's going to have the chance to speak again this Thursday when he goes to Oslo to accept the Nobel @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Oslo ? @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) The Oslo venture is so surreal . I mean , he 's going to give a speech , thanking them for an award given to him because of the quality of the speeches he gives . All he can say is that I am fighting a war to stop the destabilization of these countries . And we 've got some help . And he 's going to , perhaps , by then be able to say already that NATO members are pony up . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) ... thousand . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Still ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Could you write that speech ? @!PEGGY-NOONAN-@1WAL# Oh , you know , this is just the sort of thing that , well , normally , a sitting American president wins a Nobel Prize that 's just good . You definitely get a bounce out of the Nobel Peace Prize . Not in this case because of what George says . I just think people will look at it and think , oh man , this is just more talk in a fancier tuxedo . You know ? @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) But he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) From the speech - the teeth of it . @!RICHARD-HAASS-@1PR# Oh no , he 's got to . And he 's got to , in a sense - the one opportunity here , it 's interesting to go to Oslo for a Nobel Peace Prize speech , and argue why there has to be a security component . And actually that 's where I disagree with Katrina . It 's not a question of just politics or just economics . What we 've learned in history , you get overwhelmed by having those kinds of strategies . There has to be a security component . My problem with the policy is I think it 's out of balance . That the security component has now grown more than it should . One last point , Pakistan , they have a different agenda than we have . They see Afghanistan as their hedge . It is the real estate that they have to make sure they 're not surrounded by India . We have a problem . We have a partner that does not share the same geopolitical outlook @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Pakistanis are worried about being abandoned by the United States again . We have to keep in mind that we 're very much working in tandem with someone who has very different geopolitical goals . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Let me bring this back to our domestic agenda . We 've got some jobs numbers on Friday . Unemployment actually went down 10.2% to 10% . Before the President goes to Oslo , he 's going to give a speech on Tuesday , laying out some new ideas on how to create new jobs . And one of the big questions at issue is whether to tap the TARP , the bailout fund to pay for some of these programs . There 's debate already on Capitol Hill . @GRAPHICS @!REPRESENTATIVE-NAN# Creating jobs reduces the deficit . And I think the TARP funds are an appropriate use - appropriately used to create jobs to reduce the deficit . @!REPRESENTATIVE-JOH# What we ought to do with that money is use it , use it to reduce the budget deficit . There 's no , there 's no - nobody ever had any idea @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ahead and spend it on something else . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) The next big fight , the President says he 's going to tap it . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) And Senator Thune of South Dakota is going to give senators a chance to vote against that . The public hates TARP for , in my judgment , a lot of good reasons . Before the decline in unemployment , slight but encouraging , Democrats were saying , unemployment 's not coming down . We need to have another stimulus . As soon as you got signs that there was some job creation , the liberals said , no time to stop now , we need another stimulus . I 'll give you one number . Under the stimulus package , the Energy Department got $36.8 billion . Of which they 've spent $1.5 billion , 5% . Why have 95% of that little bit of the stimulus sitting there do we need another stimulus ? @!KATRINA-VANDEN-HEU# The recovery stimulus has helped this country avert a great recession . Though there are people in great pain out there . In order to create @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ TARP funds and even beyond that . We should use the AIG bailout money given to Goldman Sachs , $13 billion , to give to people to create jobs , as opposed to the $17 billion payout in bonuses . And there are very smart , targeted jobs program . The economy stimulus was not a jobs program . We need to give the aid to states and localities . We need to ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) It was n't a jobs program ? @!KATRINA-VANDEN-HEU# No , it was n't . It was essentially - it was n't . I mean they may have painted it that way , but it was like to keep the economy from falling into the abyss . And I think that is - what we need is a targeted jobs program . And you know , part of the problem with the TARP is you 've given money , taxpayer money to banks . They are n't lending . And the polls show that Americans do not believe this administration is on the side of working Americans . And this administration , the Democratic Party @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that . @!RICHARD-HAASS-@1PR# But there 's also an area where working Americans , in some cases represented by organized labor are not on the side of working Americans because what 's missing from this entire jobs debate is trade . The single-biggest engine of American job creation is trade policy , is export promotion . And where are we ? We do n't have a positive trade policy . This is the best way to have non-inflationary stimulus that does n't break the budget . It does n't cost us a dollar . Let 's start negotiating in earnest a global free trade ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Is our trade policy . @!RICHARD-HAASS-@1PR# Well , not enough . It 's a start , but it 's not enough of one . @!PEGGY-NOONAN-@1WAL# Hello . Well this is all a mess . The , the public does n't like all this spending . People naturally look and they think the guys who have got the system wired are getting it . The guys in Detroit are getting it . Goldman Sachs is getting it . People who have the system wired are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of this spending , in my view . I do n't think they 'll mind terribly if all of the sudden it looks like some money is going to jobs creation in jobs that people can actually see . This is a pure political calculation . But I do n't think it will be so terribly unhappy . I think it will be removed in the public imagination from the feeding the pigs at the trough , which is what the last year has looked like . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Every dollar ... @!KATRINA-VANDEN-HEU# We 're back to where you saw this , George , close-up . I mean it is again Bob Rubin , in the White House , with you , Carville , Robert Reich . It is the deficit hawks versus ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Carville was n't in the White House . @!KATRINA-VANDEN-HEU# All right . Well , you know , maybe - but putting people , no , but putting people first . And you 've got Geithner , by the way , in the White House , wanting to use the TARP money to pay down @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , we need to use this money at a times of crisis , of emergency in this country . And we can afford the deficit . And by the way , when you get outside of Washington , and you ask people about jobs versus deficit , it 's a myth that people are crazy about reducing the deficit at all costs . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) But they 're crazy about both . @!KATRINA-VANDEN-HEU# That is just not on the minds of ordinary , non-pundit , ordinary , living Americans . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Said she from Manhattan . @!KATRINA-VANDEN-HEU# Hey . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Look , every dollar ... @!KATRINA-VANDEN-HEU# Burlington ? @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) ... you want to siphon out of the economy by the government to spend on the economy , comes from the economy . The sky is dark , Katrina , with dollars flying back and forth between consumers and Washington and states . That 's not how you stimulate the economy . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) A couple of minutes left before we go . Gate-crasher gate reached a new level this week . Hearings on Capitol Hill . The @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ secretary Desiree Rogers did not . Led to this exchange in the White House briefing room . @!MARK-SULLIVAN-@1DI# In our line of work , we can not afford even one mistake . Although these individuals went through magnetometers and other levels of screening , their entry into the White House ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) The wrong tape up there . But that was - what you heard there was the head of the Secret Service saying we could n't make mistakes . But , George , it was an interesting choice by the White House . Desiree Rogers , the social secretary , called to testify . They refused citing separation of powers . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Executive privilege and all the rest , yes . Look , what 's interesting about this is we saw this week an example of the excessive security concerns in this country . Those cadets who listened to the President 's speech were in their seats three hours before he talked . Now think about this . He 's talking at West Point . He 's surrounded by the United States Army . And they 're @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ get the guest list at the White House right ? @!RICHARD-HAASS-@1PR# Coming back to the White House decision . There will be moments over the next three years when this president and this administration are going to need to claim executive privilege , where you 've got to protect the confidentiality and the privacy of what this or that adviser says to the President and vice versa . This does n't seem to me to meet that standard . And the risk , therefore , is they create a whole pushback or backlash in the Congress and the American public by this expansive claim of executive privilege , when it does n't , when it does n't apply . This is not about confidential conversations between the President and a staff member . It 's about performance of certain people and its impact on American security , which , by the way , goes beyond the administration . All Americans have a stake in the security of a White House and the security of a president . My reaction to this would simply be preserve and save executive privilege . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and had Desiree Rogers go up and testify ? @!PEGGY-NOONAN-@1WAL# Yes . I think that would have been wise . I must say , on the party-crashers what fascinated me this week , is the shock of the party-crashing couple that people had criticized them . They showed up on TV , stricken . Looking like , okay , we did this thing . It was bad for security . It was bad in every way . But we did n't know we 'd be criticized . That 's - in a way , it 's understandable , they felt the way they felt , because the line of acceptable behavior keeps moving . These people did n't know where that little sucker was , that little line . You know ? It 's sort of everybody can do what they want . There 's a heedlessness that is sort of out there . And it 's fascinating to me. @!KATRINA-VANDEN-HEU# Well I mean I think we have to be worried about egregious security lapses . This president , I believe , has received record number of death threats . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this crasher-gate . I mean our media is addicted to silliness . I bet if we did a survey of the media this past week there would be as many references to the crasher-gate , as there are to Afghanistan and the President 's speech . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) I doubt it . We may have been close ... @!KATRINA-VANDEN-HEU# I swear . There 's an addiction to silliness . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) The exit strategy begins here . We 're out of time . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Voiceover) This " Roundtable " is gon na continue in " The Green Room " on ABCNews.com. @!ANNOUNCER-# " This Week " with George Stephanopoulos brought to you by ... COMMERCIAL BREAK '

@@4072641 KATHIE LEE @!GIFFORD , co-host : And it 's a very special day for you , is n't it , Hoda ? @!HODA-KOTB-co-host : It is . It is my niece 's birthday . So , Hannah , happy third birthday . @!GIFFORD : Third birthday . @!KOTB : I 'm coming home for the weekend to see her . @!GIFFORD : Ah , that 's so great . I love how close you are to your family . @!KOTB : Love her . @!GIFFORD : They do n't like you much , but you are crazy about them , are n't you ? No , it 's sweet . I love it . @!KOTB : Terrible . @!GIFFORD : Yes . @!KOTB : OK , now ... @!GIFFORD : OK , big , big , big doings. @!KOTB : But let me just -- can I just complain for 1/10th of a second , before we get to the Olympics ? Because I was so excited to watch Lindsey Vonn ski . @!GIFFORD : Yes . @!KOTB : We went to Broadway , which we 'll talk about . I get home , I quickly go on Twitter @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ just said , Lindsey Vonn wins gold . It did n't say spoiler alert , be careful . @!GIFFORD : Yeah , no warning . No warning . @!KOTB : No , no , it was right in there , and it was one of those moments that you were so glad she won , but you sort of wanted to feel it . @!GIFFORD : You wanted to -- you wanted the buildup , you wanted the drama , the tension . @!KOTB : But that 's OK , because ... @!GIFFORD : The Olympic glory . @!KOTB : ... what a day , though , for the Americans last night . @!GIFFORD : Yeah , I do n't know how I got through yesterday . I really do n't . Because we went to see " Fela ! " by the way , on Broadway , on 49th Street . @!KOTB : Mm-hmm . Yes . @!GIFFORD : At the Eugene O'Neill Theatre . @!KOTB : Mm-hmm . @!GIFFORD : Really lively . I did n't -- I 'd never heard of this character before . His name @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ... from Nigeria . @!KOTB : Yeah . @!GIFFORD : Lagos , Nigeria . And it all takes place in this nightclub that he -- that he ran . And it 's set ... @!KOTB : Set in the ' 70s . And it is -- they make you , just so you know , in the show you actually get up and dance . So that 's part of the scene that happens . @!GIFFORD : Yeah . @!KOTB : And watching that Broadway crowd shake it was quite entertaining , I should say . @!GIFFORD : It -- yeah . Yes , yes . Not everybody in the audience was from Nigeria , that 's for sure . @!KOTB : But you could still shake it . @!GIFFORD : It was an international crowd . @!KOTB : You can still shake it . @!GIFFORD : And it -- well , you know what ? Today is their 100th performance , tonight . @!KOTB : Yeah , yeah . @!GIFFORD : So good for them . @!KOTB : Yeah . @!GIFFORD : It was really interesting . @!KOTB : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Then I went home . I had to get in a little workout , because it 's strenuous . We 're all in the Olympics right now , you know . @!KOTB : Yes . @!GIFFORD : And then I had to watch the screener of " Valentine 's Day . " @!KOTB : " Valentine 's Day . " @!GIFFORD : Because Garry Marshall 's on today and I adore him . @!KOTB : Great movie . Uh-huh . @!GIFFORD : I wanted to see his movie . Then I watched the Olympics till about 11:15 . I said , What happened to -- I thought it was supposed to be over at 11 ? So it was ... @!KOTB : Well , watching -- Lindsey Vonn was such a buildup , and her release at the end when she finally won gold . @!GIFFORD : Yeah . Yeah . @!KOTB : And it was -- it was a moment . I think we actually have her sound . Let 's listen to what Lindsey said after she won . qwq @ ( Beginning-of-clip- @!MATT-LAUER-co-hos : Were you surprised @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I just , I could n't really contain myself . I 've worked so hard for this . And , you know , to finally be able to stay in the finish , you know , with a gold medal is , it 's so awesome . @!LAUER : Was it joy ? Was it relief ? What -- how do you put ... @!Ms-VONN : Pretty much everything . @(End-of-clip) @!KOTB : It was everything . @!GIFFORD : How does she look so good , sobbing like that ? @!KOTB : Oh , she can look good doing anything . @!GIFFORD : You know ? She 's sobbing and she still has mascara done and she looks great . @!KOTB : Yeah . Most people -- when I cry , I look contorted and freakish . @!GIFFORD : Oh , oh , I am the ugliest crier you 've ever seen . @!KOTB : It 's so bad . Terrible . @!GIFFORD : If you want to see ugly crying , google my e-movie " Spinning Out of Control . " You would -- it 's the ugliest thing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ All right , so Lindsey got a gold , Shani Davis got a gold in the ... @!GIFFORD : In the speedskating , in the 1,000 meters. @!KOTB : ... in the speed -- that was unbelievable . @!GIFFORD : Yeah . I was n't aware of him before , so that was fun to see . @!KOTB : He 's from the South Side of Chicago . @!GIFFORD : I know , he 's a Chicago boy . @!KOTB : Yeah . I love that . And then Shaun White with that -- there 's Shani Davis . Shaun White with that thing he does . @!GIFFORD : That McSomething. @!KOTB : Whatever ... @!GIFFORD : You know , we 're -- I 'm sitting watching it with Frank . @!KOTB : Yeah . @!GIFFORD : And as I told you , it was apparently nine Olympics , and he did every ski event all around the world ... @!KOTB : Right , right . @!GIFFORD : ... with Bob Beattie , you know , the agony in defeat . @!KOTB : Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . @!GIFFORD : You @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " So he 's sitting there and he 's watching Shaun White , and he goes , What is that ? And I said , That 's the halfpipe . He goes , that -- he did n't know it . He said , well , they did n't have that an Olympic sport last time he did it . @!KOTB : They did n't actually have it until I think last Olympics . It was brand-new. @!GIFFORD : Do you know what else they did n't have ? @!KOTB : What ? @!GIFFORD : My favorite . @!KOTB : What ? @!GIFFORD : Curling . @!KOTB : They 've had curling . @!GIFFORD : Not forever . @!KOTB : No . Well , if you guys ... @!GIFFORD : No , curling 's one of the newer ones in the last couple of Olympics . @!KOTB : Look at the pants these guys are wearing , you guys . This is a team from Norway . @!GIFFORD : Yeah . @!KOTB : They wore pants . @!GIFFORD : Yeah . @!KOTB : And I was ... @!GIFFORD : They @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!GIFFORD : Loud mouth something , clothing or something like that . @!KOTB : Our guys have been -- our guys here have been getting in the spirit , trying to keep the floors clean . I do n't know if you 've seen it . But they 're ... @!GIFFORD : I know . And they call that an Olympic sport ? @!KOTB : That is -- you 've got -- now that 's a 10 . And look how shiny the floors are , too . Boys , excellent job . Perfect . You win . @!GIFFORD : I 'm sorry , but can we -- you guys are awesome . @!KOTB : You guys are gold , gold , gold . @!GIFFORD : They also get paid if they 're on camera . But -- we 're on to you guys . @!KOTB : Hundred and ten -- here they come again . @!GIFFORD : Here they come again . @!KOTB : Go , go , go , go , go . One more time , one more time . @!GIFFORD : They 're going to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ get the gold . @!KOTB : If you see them throughout the show , $100 , cha-ching , every time . @!GIFFORD : I do n't know , after Conan , what Conan did , can we do that anymore ? That 's it , guys . @!KOTB : All right , so Tiger -- you guys , Tiger Woods is speaking . @!GIFFORD : Yes . @!KOTB : Tomorrow . Here 's the deal , though . He says , number one , he 's not going to take questions . There will be a single camera . @!GIFFORD : Right . @!KOTB : It is invited friends and other guests , I guess . @!GIFFORD : And press , certain members of the press whom I suppose are friends and friendly to him . @!KOTB : Well , selected press . And they 're having other press way down in some other room . @!GIFFORD : Watching it on a feed . Mm-hmm . @!KOTB : So he will take no questions , he 'll read a statement . It 's funny , because he had a written @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Yes , we 've heard it . @!KOTB : And now he 's going to have a spoken one . @!GIFFORD : Most of the papers I read today , and I read three , only three ... @!KOTB : Mm-hmm . @!GIFFORD : ... said that he is going about this , again , all the wrong way . @!KOTB : Yeah , yeah . @!GIFFORD : They 're saying this is not -- this is only going to look like spin , it 's not going to look like true redemption . @!KOTB : Mm-hmm . @!GIFFORD : True , you know , a mea culpa that they all -- I do n't know what the guy 's got to do ... @!KOTB : It 's -- well ... @!GIFFORD : ... but it 's going to be interesting to see if Elin 's by his side tomorrow . @!KOTB : Going to be there . It sounds like what he 's going to do is make his statement ... @!GIFFORD : And go play golf . @!KOTB : The Master -- the Masters are coming up . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't have to keep -- he 'll say I already -- I already made my statement , so he can put that behind him . @!GIFFORD : Yeah . Let me tell you something , though . @!KOTB : That sort of thing . @!GIFFORD : He wo n't -- it 'll never be behind him . @!KOTB : I know . @!GIFFORD : It will be with him and her , unfortunately , and their children , for the rest of their lives . @!KOTB : I think . .. @!GIFFORD : That 's the culture we live in . It 's called trash for cash . @!KOTB : I think women -- but here 's the thing . I think women are going to continue to dislike him , and I think men will just want to see him play golf . @!GIFFORD : Men want to see him play golf . Frank -- we were watching -- he was seeing something on Sunday and he was saying it 's just not the same without Tiger in the game . @!KOTB : Mm-hmm . @!GIFFORD : It 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!KOTB : Oh , no , it 's another song . @!GIFFORD : Everybody ! @!KOTB : Another song . Another song . @!GIFFORD : I ca n't stop myself . @!KOTB : OK , can we go back to the Olympics for one second ? @!GIFFORD : No. @!KOTB : All those people were wiping out on that mountain . @!GIFFORD : Yeah . Yeah . It 's -- yeah . @!KOTB : I mean , the number of people who -- I think they had six accidents , crashes . @!GIFFORD : And they were major crashes . @!KOTB : And they were bad crashes . @!GIFFORD : Major crashes . @!KOTB : There was a guy , hang on , Nick*** ( as spoken ) ***Vaccaro , in the Post , he had a -- he had a great line , and it said something like , They walked the razor ' -- here it is : They walked the razor-thin line between careless and carefree . I like that line from Mike Vaccaro . Because you have to be free , but you 've got to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ watch some of these crashes . @!GIFFORD : Oh , my gosh . Yeah . @!KOTB : Oh , those were -- those were tough . @!GIFFORD : Well , I think every Olympics tries to do outdo the last Olympics , and of course they do . @!KOTB : It 's hard to watch some of these . @!GIFFORD : And there 's that kind of competition , as well , between the host countries . @!KOTB : Right . @!GIFFORD : You know . @!KOTB : Yes . They want the fast track . @!GIFFORD : They want the fastest track ever . And of course , all the athletes want to break every kind of world record . @!KOTB : Right , so you want faster and faster . @!GIFFORD : Every kind of world record . So there is -- there are some athletes that do not want the track messed with because they say , no , that 's ... @!KOTB : Fast . @!GIFFORD : Yeah . @!KOTB : It seems icy , though , with all that weird ... @!GIFFORD : Well , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ conditions ... @!KOTB : Weather conditions , right . @!GIFFORD : ... over the last week , so . @!KOTB : OK , you guys , I do n't know if you saw this video , but this is hilarious . @!GIFFORD : I have n't seen it yet . @!KOTB : There was a guy trying to rob a 7-11 . And there was this granny just waiting to cash out at the front , and the robber came and she picked up the -- look at her , she picked up the scanner thing and just starts clocking the guy . She does not even care . Look at her . She ca n't reach him , so she waits till he comes around and gets him another time . Look at her . @!GIFFORD : I love her ! @!KOTB : And he ran away . He ran -- look at her . @!GIFFORD : That 's -- do not mess with granny . Oh , my gosh . That is hysterical . Does -- she looks like one of those ladies you always see in -- @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ does . @!GIFFORD : You know ? They always look like that . @!KOTB : Yes . @!GIFFORD : Maybe she was visiting , she was on a visa . @!KOTB : Maybe she is. @!GIFFORD : Oh , you 're so upset . This ... @!KOTB : No one 's bidding on my football . I 'm getting upset . I have 1500 -- what is it , 1525 ? Offscreen Voice : Fifteen twenty-five . @!KOTB : I think the bidding thing 's broken , I honestly do , because there has n't been a bid since -- in two days . Do n't you think that 's an issue ? @!GIFFORD : Imagine that . @!KOTB : OK , go to klgandhoda.com , OK ? @!GIFFORD : How many -- how much is this one worth ? Voice : You 're at $2,026. @!KOTB : Yours has n't gotten another bid either . I think it 's broken . @!GIFFORD : OK , I 'm going to say a shout out to my friends down there in Ocean Reef . @!KOTB : Ah ! @!GIFFORD : Remember @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the rich people . They 're going to bid on it . No ! @!GIFFORD : We just had ... @!KOTB : No , no. @!GIFFORD : We just raised $2 million last Saturday night . They have still got some money , let me tell you . I want my friends down there in Ocean Reef . You get Regis Philbin , Kathie Lee and , who 's she , and Frank Gifford , Hall of Fame 1977 . OK ? @!KOTB : Wait , I know your friends at Ocean Reef , too . OK , I would like you to bid on my football . I 've got Archie Manning , Emmitt Smith , Nene from " The Real Housewives of Atlanta . " @!GIFFORD : OK , enough said . @!KOTB : All right , anyhoo. @!GIFFORD : OK. @!KOTB : All righty then . @!GIFFORD : And our magazine , OK ! @!KOTB : Yeah , yeah . @!GIFFORD : Which is an interesting -- I want to read this article . It says " Betrayed by John . " You know , all the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ article . @!KOTB : Yeah . @!GIFFORD : I mean , I think she should also -- I mean , as bad as I think what he did is ... @!KOTB : Uh-huh . @!GIFFORD : ... I think it made everybody look at her a little differently . @!KOTB : I think that 's fair to say . @!GIFFORD : If she 's sexual napalm , that 's better than what people have been saying lately . @!KOTB : Yes , yes . @!GIFFORD : Do n't you think ? @!KOTB : Yes , I ... @!GIFFORD : Nobody has ever called me sexual napalm . @!KOTB : But would John Mayer mess with you ? @!GIFFORD : I wish somebody would say your body is a wonderland . It 's ... @!KOTB : All right . So wait , what are we saying ? @!GIFFORD : That ai n't going to happen . @!KOTB : OK. @!GIFFORD : OK . Is it OK to write on your hand ? As Sarah Palin did during the last ... @!KOTB : Right . I say ... @!GIFFORD : Hoda says @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you write , quote , " Do n't write on your hand anymore . Too messy . Buy a notepad , " unquote. @!KOTB : Kathie Lee says , If you 're going to cheat , it 's wrong . But if you 're doing it to remind yourself , it does come in " handy . " ' @!GIFFORD : Handy . @!KOTB : Are n't we cute and funny ? All right . @!GIFFORD : Ar , ar , ar . @!KOTB : Hello , birthday boy . @!GIFFORD : Adam , how did your birthday go , buddy ? @!KOTB : How was it ? @!ADAM : Can I just say , I love my birthday . @!KOTB : You did ? @!ADAM : Do you love your birthdays ? @!GIFFORD : No. @!KOTB : Unh-unh. @!ADAM : Why not ? @!GIFFORD : Because you 're 25. @!KOTB : Yeah , you 'll hate them later . Twenty-four . @!GIFFORD : Twenty-four . @!ADAM : I 'll take 25 , it 's all right . @!GIFFORD : I 've been 24 almost three times . @!KOTB : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to remind ... @!GIFFORD : It 's not as much fun the third time around . @!KOTB : Stop it . @!ADAM : Fair enough . I want to remind everyone that this auction with the footballs ... @!GIFFORD : Yes . @!ADAM : ... it runs through noon , 3 PM Eastern on Friday . So we 've got to hope that , you know ... @!KOTB : God , one more -- not even a day . @!ADAM : I know . @!KOTB : Oh . @!GIFFORD : It wo n't take my friends in Ocean Reef long . Oh , it 's going to be over -- I bet it 'll be over $10,000 tomorrow . @!KOTB : That 's just mean . @!GIFFORD : Yeah . And I 'm going to count ... @!KOTB : I want my friends from the South Side of Chicago to bid on my football . @!GIFFORD : I want the Farmers , the Davidsons and the Goldsteins to penny up . OK. @!ADAM : So Tiger , he sparked a lot of chatter on Facebook. @!KOTB : Yeah . @!GIFFORD @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's willing to speak out , he should be willing to take questions . Otherwise , just issue a statement , which is ... @!KOTB : I think that 's what a lot of people think . @!GIFFORD : Which he 's already done . @!KOTB : Which he 's done . @!ADAM : Yeah . @!GIFFORD : I think he does n't want to go into all the sordid details . And you know what ? I do n't want him to . All right , coming up -- I want to hear your sordid details , but not his . @!KOTB : Stop it . He , he , he , he . @!GIFFORD : It was a spectacular day for the Americans at the Vancouver Games . @!KOTB : It was terrific . Sara Haines has all the exciting Olympic highlights right after this . She has the gloves on . @!GIFFORD : She 's getting cuter all the time . '

@@4072741 MR . DAVID GREGORY : We 're back , joined now by Democratic National Committee Chairman Tim Kaine and Republican National Committee Chairman Michael Steele . Welcome back to MEET THE PRESS . All right , we just heard from the leaders about all of the runs , hits and errors on Capitol Hill today . Let me ask a slightly larger question , Chairman Steele . If this is victory for the president on health care , at what cost did he achieve it . @!MR-MICHAEL-STEELE- : I think his defeat in the fall , in November . I think you can not ignore the past year of voters out there at town halls , in tea parties , in gatherings around the country , talking and conversing with their congressmen and elected officials directly , and then not having that listened to , having a deaf ear turned to them by the administration , Nancy Pelosi , and Harry Reid . And I think the ballot box will be the last voice in this , in this big campaign for health care because the voters have made it very clear in poll after poll . They do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to take a slower step approach . They want the reforms , but they want it in a way that really address the costs . You 're going to add 33 million people to the healthcare rolls . How do you effectively pay for it ? And the way this is set up , those folks do n't hit the rolls until 2014 and later , which then jumps the cost of this to over $2 trillion . @!MR-GREGORY : But you wrote a , you wrote a letter this week to , to supporters of the RNC . @!MR-STEELE : Mm-hmm . @!MR-GREGORY : And you say this , " After a year a pushing his radical socialist health care reform experiment , Obama has just a few more days to wait to see " if " his number one priority " succeeded . ... " If Pelosi can successfully cajole , intimidate , coerce her Democrat majority into approving a bill the American people are against by a 3:1 margin , Obama and the rest of the radical Democrats in Washington will see their dream of government-run , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ know , critics of , of that kind of appeal with that sort of heavy rhetoric say this is a healthcare package that is more moderate than President Nixon actually put forward . @!MR-STEELE : Well , not the way the American people see it . You 're taking one-sixth of the economy , and you 're basically turning it on a head -- on its head where you 've got more government controls put in place , more commissions , more regulatory processes that are put in place , $406 billion in new taxes , $507 billion in cuts to Medicare . You 've got this , this 94 -- 900 -- nine -- what , $940 billion CBO number , which even they say , " Well , it 's not the real number because there are other features of this that when they kick in will jump the cost to over $2 trillion . " So this is the , this is the predicate that has been laid for the healthcare debate that concerns people . I think that rhetoric is reflective of how people feel and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ think it 's important for the administration and the leadership on the hill to understand that . @!MR-GREGORY : Governor , at what cost will victory be achieved ? @!FMR-GOV-TIM-KAINE- : David , this is going to be great for Democrats . You know , I 've been on a ballot seven times and won seven races . I would love to be running on this . And I think the extreme nature of the rhetoric just shows how worried the other guys are . Here 's what 's going to happen . This bill passes , right away seniors get a break on purchasing prescription medications . Right away small businesses get a tax credit so they can afford to purchase insurance for their employees . Right away parents will be able to keep kids on their policies till they 're 26 instead of 21 . And right away we stop the most heartless abuses of insurance companies kicking sick people around . That 's going to happen right away . The American public will see it . They wo n't see death panels , they wo n't see @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ wo n't see any of the phantoms that the other guy 's created . And so if the -- if going forward into 2010 , if they want to campaign , as the leader said a minute ago , Leader Boehner , on repeal , let them do that just like Alf Landon campaigned to repeal Social Security in 1936 . This is going to be a big win for the American public , and every Democrat everywhere will get a tailwind because @!MR-GREGORY : But , Governor Kaine , you , you ... @!GOV-KAINE : ... they will have solved the big issue and done it well . @!MR-GREGORY : You and the White House , certainly , Democrats , make the argument , Let 's pass this thing and you 'll see the popularity increase . Former President Clinton has said the same thing because people will like the individual elements of the bill , they 're going to come around to this , even though a majority oppose the president 's version of healthcare reform now . And yet , if you look at how the stimulus @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it was passed , here 's our latest poll that shows views about the stimulus package passed by the administration . Forty-two percent think it 's still a bad idea as opposed to 35 percent think it 's a good idea . What makes you so sure that people are going to come around on health care ? @!GOV-KAINE : Well , well , look , David , here 's the deal . Before the stimulus was passed , the economy , as you know , was shrinking at 6 percent a year . It 's now growing at 6 percent a year . Before the stimulus was passed , the American economy was losing 750,000 jobs a month . Now we 've got it back to net even . This is not primarily about politics , it 's primarily about solving an issue that presidents since Teddy Roosevelt have tried to solved . @!MR-GREGORY : Well , that 's a fair point . But I 'm asking you a political question , and it 's not always about merits in politics . @!GOV-KAINE : But -- OK . Then @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to the politics . @!MR-GREGORY : People do n't feel the stimulus . @!GOV-KAINE : What , what they see about the healthcare bill is if -- there are some polls , and you 've cited them , that , overall , people have concerns . Now , there were some polls this week that showed a majority are in favor . In fact , in the last six weeks , there 's been about a 13 point move in favor of healthcare reform . But the thing that 's important to know , and I know , I know you know this from your guys own poll , if you poll about the individual elements , " What do you think about reforming insurance so that they ca n't kick people off when they get sick or turn them down when they change jobs or because of pre-existing condition , " the American public says thumbs up . " What do you think about tax credits for small businesses ? " Thumbs up . " What do you think about parents having kids on their policy ? " Thumbs @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the point . What I 'm trying to make -- say is that , that the package deal on the stimulus has not borne fruit , and what makes you so sure that it 's going to bear fruit on ... @!GOV-KAINE : But it has borne fruit . The , the economy is now starting to go the right direction again . It was in a free fall , and the other guys would n't even pull the rip cord . @!MR-STEELE : But you 're not , but you 're not creating jobs , Governor . You 're not -- that 's the core of this , this debate , really , is not so much about health care ... @!GOV-KAINE : CBO says we are creating jobs . @!MR-STEELE : ... it 's more about -- well , tell that to the person who just got a pink slip yesterday . @!MR-GREGORY : Right . @!GOV-KAINE : Well ... @!MR-STEELE : Because the reality of it is that people are still being laid off , jobs are not being created , and now you 're about to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on its head at a time when you can ill afford to do that . And the legacy here -- this is the key thing that we need to focus on -- if we do n't get this right now -- and I think we 're both in agreement that we need to get this right -- but if we do n't get it right , future generations are -- will not forgive us for passing on the debt and deficits that will come as a result of spending money we do not have today . @!GOV-KAINE : Well , David ... @!MR-GREGORY : Well , let , let , let me , let me ask ... @!GOV-KAINE : Yeah . @!MR-GREGORY : ... the other political kind of corollary to this . Here 's a poll about Congress , which we 'll prepare , shows how people feel . The question was , " Would you vote to defeat and replace every single member of Congress , including your own representative ? " Fifty percent say yes . So in that case , Chairman Steele , how , how @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ fall ? Is it about repeal ? @!MR-STEELE : It -- absolutely it 's about repealing . You know who 's framing the debate this fall ? The people are . That 's the beauty of what 's happening right now . You 've seen this surge across the spectrum -- right , left , center -- people expressing what they want . The problem has been from the very beginning of this debate , David , that the leadership has not listened . This administration , this Congress has not listened to what people wanted . They 've gotten on their cell phones in the middle of town hall meetings , they 've asked for IDs . Here in northern Virginia , at -- in town hall meetings , you know , before you speak , you 've got to let me know if you 're in my district . People have an expression they want to make on this , on this healthcare debate , on the economy , and the administration and the Congress has n't let them do it . So , yes , this is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ respond to the poll ... @!GOV-KAINE : Yeah . @!MR-GREGORY : ... what about the tone of the debate ? I asked the leaders about this . Some of the racial epithets , anti-gay epithets among tea party activists . Is there a danger for Republicans to be associated with the tea party movement ? @!MR-STEELE : Well , we 're not associate -- well , we 're not -- no , it 's not a danger to be associated with the tea party movement . It is -- it 's certainly not a reflection of the movement or the Republican Party when you have some idiots out there saying very stupid things . So , as , as the leader said , as Leader Boehner said , that 's reprehensible , we do not support that . You can have this debate without , without attacking a member of Congress personally . @!MR-GREGORY : But do you think some of your own rhetoric in the RNC , that slide show you had from your finance director vilifying the speaker and the president , talking about socialist health care . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ said , inappropriate , and it should not have happened . And we 've dealt ... @!MR-GREGORY : But what about your own fundraising letter ? Does that kind of rhetoric spur activism that gets to a point of ugliness ? @!MR-STEELE : Well , there 's a fine line between engaging your donors and your activists to get them fired up and go out , going out and , and do for you , to raise money , etc. , and saying something , as we 've heard yesterday , that are racial epithets and anti-gay language . There 's a very -- there 's a very bright line there for us to not cross . And nothing we 've done or said on either side , Democrat or Republican , in the hot rhetoric of this , you know , I think comes to that . What you had out there yesterday were a handful of people who just got stupid and , and said very ignorant things . And neither party , I believe , are associated -- or should be associated with that . @!MR-GREGORY : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ framing the fall . @!GOV-KAINE : Right . @!MR-GREGORY : You 've got stubborn joblessness , a high unemployment rate . How do Democrats use this healthcare vote to campaign in the fall ? @!GOV-KAINE : Sure . We 're the solutions party , David . That 's the way we use it . I think the overheated rhetoric is one of the reasons why people , when they 're asked about Congress , say things like , " Well , we should replace it , " because they want to see not rhetoric but results . And so what we 've seen with the Democrats over the last year and a half is the economy was in a free fall , and the previous administration would n't even pull the rip cord to , you know , pull out the parachute . This president has done the heavy lifting to get the economy growing again . He 's done the heavy lifting to stop the job losses , and we 're doing the heavy lifting to do something that presidents since Teddy Roosevelt have tried , which is provide @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ coverage to those who do n't have it . And finally , as the CBO said , tackling the unsustainable growth in healthcare costs . That 's what this bill does . I think the American public will always reward problem solvers over the folks who just , you know , throw rhetorical arguments and red meat to their base . @!MR-GREGORY : All right , let ... @!GOV-KAINE : And we 're solving problems . And that 's how we win in November . @!MR-GREGORY : Let me conclude with this . I want to put something on the screen that Ron Brownstein also -- National Journal wrote about what we 've learned about the president 's leadership approach to issues like this . And this is what he wrote : " The health care fight has opened a second window into Obama . The key here is the ' 08 campaign assertion that Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America more than Richard Nixon or Bill Clinton did . The ... struggle suggests that Obama views changing that trajectory as the ultimate measure of a presidency 's success @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ - one centered on a more activist government . ... Everything else - the legislative tactics , even most individual policies - is negotiable . He wants to chart the course for the supertanker , not to steer it around each wave or decide which crates are loaded into its hull . " From each of you , what have we learned about the president 's approach to his job , to his presidency ? @!MR-STEELE : I think he hit it right on the head . He -- this is a president who believes fundamentally in an activist government , not an activist business class , not an activist community of investors and , and those who will create the wealth in an economy . He sees that being centered -- coming out of the federal government , using the institutions and the apparati of , of federal government to achieve those ends . That is not what this country was founded on . It is -- fundamentally goes against every economic approach that we 've had . Whether you like capitalism or not , it has provided for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ It has not been created by government . And that , for me , is a fundamental difference between a Ronald Reagan and a Barack Obama. @!MR-GREGORY : What have we learned ? @!GOV-KAINE : David , what I 'll say is what we 've learned is that the president is good to his campaign promise . He campaigned on the status quo is not working for the American public . The , the decade of the -- you know , the first decade of this century people lost income , we were losing jobs , the stock market was tanking , lax regulation led to meltdowns in the financial industry . And the president campaigned saying we 've got to change direction if we 're going to serve our people and be competitive in a global economy . And that 's why we see the heavy lifting to get the economy going again , to find a better energy future , to reform education , and , yes , to do what so many presidents have tried to do , solve Americans pressing health problems . I met a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ready to graduate from college who 's got a , you know , congenital illness and said she 's going to go off his policy and what can he do ? When a bill like this passes and parents can keep kids on their policy till they 're 26 or seniors get a break , we 'll be solving problems . That 's what this president was elected to do . @!MR-GREGORY : Do you think that , either of you , that you 'll be back here on this program discussing grand consensus between Republicans and Democrats in the course of this administration on another issue ? @!MR-STEELE : I hope so . @!GOV-KAINE : I do . I do , yeah . @!MR-STEELE : I -- yeah , I hope so . I really do , because the country ca n't take what we 've just spent the last year doing . We can not , we can not approach the big issues that we face the way we have . You can not claim bipartisanship but then not invite the Republican leadership to the table or even @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!MR-GREGORY : That , of course , would be disputed . @!GOV-KAINE : And , David , and here -- I mean , here 's a good sign . Senator Schumer and Senator Graham had an article that came out just two days ago talking about the fact that there can be bipartisan agreement on comprehensive immigration reform . And I think there are a whole series of issues where there can be . I wish that there had been some Republicans who would get on board with the healthcare bill that , frankly , owes an awful lot to their ideas . They 're going to miss this opportunity , but there are going to be other opportunities . @!MR-GREGORY : All right , to be continued . Thank you both very much . @!MR-STEELE : All right . @!MR-GREGORY : Up next , where does President Obama go from here ? Plus , the very latest on the American public 's attitude toward the president and Congress from our Wall Street Journal poll with NBC . Our roundtable weighs in : NBC News chief White House correspondent Chuck @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ insiders , Democrat Anita Dunn and Republican Ed Gillespie . It 's all after this brief station break . @(Announcements) '

@@4072841 Whitney Houstons less-than-stellar comeback performance has many wondering if she was ready to come back or if she still has problems . Elin Woods , Sandra Bullock and Brooke Mueller : Who should get divorced first and who will ? Kate Gosselin is furious that her brother testified against her in a court trial involving her children . Ashley Dupre weighs in on the Tiger Woods and Jesse James cheating scandals . A.J. @!HAMMER , HLN HOST : Big news breaking today on SHOWBIZ TONIGHT - @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Houston , weve got a big problem . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HAMMER : A shocking comeback performance by Whitney Houston caught on tape . @(SINGING) @!SHOWBIZ-TONIGHT-th# Fed up and furious -- Elin Woods , Sandra Bullock , Charlie Sheens wife . Big news today about all their marriage messes as SHOWBIZ TONIGHT dares to ask , who should get divorced first and who will get divorced first ? Ashley Dupre on the Tiger and Jesse cheating scandal . The former call girl who brought down New Yorks Governor Eliot Spitzer is naked in " Playboy " and one on one on SHOWBIZ TONIGHT . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HAMMER-@1on-camera : As a former escort , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a married man knowing they may be destroying marriages ? @!ASHLEY-DUPRE-FORM : Thats a really ballsy question from you . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HAMMER : Its the cant-miss , headline-making interview youll see only on SHOWBIZ TONIGHT . @!ANNOUNCER : TVs most provocative entertainment news show starts right now . @(MUSIC) @!HAMMER : Hello . Im A.J. Hammer coming to you from New York City . @!BROOKE-ANDERSON-H : Hi there , everyone . Im Brooke Anderson in Hollywood with big news breaking today - Houston has a problem , a big problem . @!SHOWBIZ-TONIGHT-ca# Like so many Whitney Houston fans , Ive been rooting for her to put her drug troubles and Bobby Brown train wreck marriage days behind her once and for all . But today , SHOWBIZ TONIGHT got a hold of the video of her comeback concert performance in England . And when you see and hear this , you will understand why so many people are not only flabbergasted by how Whitney sounded and behaved , but are also seriously concerned . @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @!ANDERSON-@1voice-o : Whats the sound of a comeback derailing ? @(SINGING) @!SHOWBIZ-TONIGHT-ca# Clips posted on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ exactly hitting all the right notes in her concert . @!ALICIA-QUARLES-TH : People said she fell flat , that she was late , that she left the stage for long periods of time . And then , the biggest no-no when youre a diva - that she couldnt hit the notes . @!ANDERSON : SHOWBIZ TONIGHT can tell you what really has people talking is Whitneys less-than-perfect rendition of perhaps her most famous song , " I Will Always Love You . " @(SINGING) @!ANDERSON : Remember her powerful 1992 recording ? Lets just say Tuesday night sounded a little different . @(SINGING) @!QUARLES : Back in the day , you know , Whitney would go to that note and shed hit it - that note . Last night , it sounded more like - and it just croaked . And I was like , " What happened to Whitney ? " @!ANDERSON : Papers and Web sites all over the world are slamming Whitneys performance . " TheSpoof.com " joked it was actually a Whitney impersonator on stage in Birmingham . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Houston , we have a problem @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Whitneys performance to that of another YouTube sensation , a kid on a Taiwanese competition show who sings a very Whitney-esque version of the same song . @(SINGING) @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : This young boy from Taiwan may sound more like Whitney Houston than Houston herself . @!ANDERSON : Whitney Houstons U.K. disaster is a definite setback in her comeback effort , an effort she hoped would return her to stardom after her drug problem and her troubled marriage to Bobby Brown . Her comeback album " I Look to You " did debut at number one and since has gone platinum , but the tour has been having problems . @!QUARLES : When she opened her tour in Australia , people were just livid , they wanted their money back . Whitney canceled the first four dates of her European tour and she said she was suffering allergies . Because she is Whitney Houston , people automatically jumped to conclusions . They said , " Oh , my god . Is she back on drugs ? Is she hard partying ? And she has nt come out and addressed this and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I just needed to take some time off . " @!ANDERSON : Whitneys much criticized performance in England isnt doing much to stop the chatter about her troubles . But while some critics are bashing Whitneys performance , others did nt seem to mind it so much . @!QUARLES : She actually hits most of her note . You hear people clapping for her . @!ANDERSON : Alicia Quarles of the Associated Press gives Whitney credit for at least trying to sing . @!QUARLES : Shes not like Britney . I mean , shes not going out there lip-synching . Shes actually singing . @!ANDERSON : But we live in an era where people expect perfection in every live singing performance . Thanks for that , Simon . If Whitneys trying to convince people shes truly put the problems of her past behind her , the sad fact is , Houston cant afford to have many more problems . @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!HAMMER : Whats going on here ? Is Whitney Houston really having a meltdown ? Or was this maybe just a little bump in the road ? Right now , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and doctor of psychology . With me in New York is Midwin Charles who is a legal contributor for " In Session " on our sister network truTV . Ive got to say , Midwin , I was very disappointed by - that Whitneys big comeback seems so derailed . But after all the drama that shes been through , people are very quick to think shes fallen off the wagon again . I mean , should we be concerned ? @!MIDWIN-CHARLES-LE : I do nt think we should be concerned . I mean , it is unfortunate that this is always going to trail her , the fact that she had this serious bout with drugs and that train wreck of a marriage to Bobby Brown . But I think she is just exhausted . It happens to a lot of singers as you know . Lady Gaga just took a little break . She had exhaustion problems . I think Whitney just needs to chill out , relax a little bit and then come back to the stage . @!HAMMER : Yes . I think she should do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a moment . Her reps do say any accusations of drug use are just ridiculous . You know , 10 years ago , the idea of Whitney getting booed on stage - that would have been just ridiculous . Somebody would laugh at me for even suggesting it . But let me show you a little comparison that I whipped together . Whitney singing " I Will Always Love You " on VH1s " Divas Live " from back in 1999 and from her gig this week in England . Take a look . @(SINGING) @!HAMMER : All right . Now , in complete fairness , Ive got to point out thats just a little part of her two-hour show . But you know , she has been getting slammed since this tour started months ago . Wendy , is this proof that Whitney is not ready to be back on tour just yet ? @!DR-WENDY-WALSH-TV : I do nt think it is proving shes not ready . Certainly , there is a difference we know now from recording in the studio and doing a live performance . And it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ along there , too not just technical with her voice . Im rooting for her to make this comeback and make it work . @!HAMMER : Yes . And a lot of people are rooting for her . Im rooting for her . And thats what really I think makes all these reports really disappointing and the fact they have been going on again since this tour began . There have been reports of people booing and again asking for their money back . Now , like you , I agree she should probably take some time off . The problem is , if she does that , its just going to fuel the rumors and the fire a little more that something is terribly wrong . What she needs to do is get on stage and hit it out of the park . @!CHARLES : I do nt think she can do that . And you know what ? Unfortunately for Whitney , given her past history , anything she does is going to be subject to scrutiny . So I think she really needs to really just relax @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ quite frankly , that song is a very hard song to sing a good 10 , 15 years later . Lets face it - Mariah Carey does nt have the same voice she did 10 , 15 years ago . So its possible that shes also just getting a little older . @!HAMMER : Well , then maybe do nt do the song or rearrange it . @!CHARLES : Exactly . @!HAMMER : Because the truth is , if you are paying what people pay to good to a Whitney Houston concert , one of the most successful female singers of all time , you have a right to have certain expectations . I do believe that . @!CHARLES : Agree . Agree . @!HAMMER : All right . I want to move on to another big story breaking today . Mel Gibson split from his girlfriend , Oksana Grigorieva . Thats the mother of his five-month-old daughter . Now , Mel , you may remember , started dating Oksana soon after he got divorced from his wife of 28 years was made public . That divorce could cost him @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Ive got to believe Mel has some serious regrets right about now . @!WALSH : I bet he does , too . This is classic textbook midlife crisis stuff . Im just really sad to know another human being was made in the middle of all this . But I bet Mel is wishing he could turn back the clock right now . Although , fortunately , he has both the Catholic guilt and all those other kids to take care of and enough money to do it all that Im sure everyone will be cared for . But , Mel , what were you thinking ? @!HAMMER : He may lose all this money . His movies are nt doing what they once did . And not everybody has forgotten his anti-Semitic rant . Im saying , karma ? Maybe ? I do nt know . All right . Got to move on to another big story breaking today . Fed up and furious - Tiger Woods wife Elin , Charlie Sheens wife , Brooke , and Sandra Bullock all reportedly just sick and tired of all the drama @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? And who should file first ? Wendy Walsh , Midwin Charles , stay right where you are . Were going to talk about that a bit later on SHOWBIZ TONIGHT . @!ANDERSON : A new Kate Gosselin family feud exploding today . Kates estranged brother and his wife in court claiming Kates kids are in danger . Oh , my goodness . This is getting ugly . And Ashley Dupre on the Tiger and Jesse cheating scandals . Now , Ashley is the former call girl who brought down New Yorks Governor Eliot Spitzer. @!HAMMER : Yes . And Brooke , now , shes naked in " Playboy " and one on one with me in an explosive interview . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @(on-camera) : " Dear Ashley , my life has been torn apart by what my husband may have done . As a former escort , help me understand how women can reconcile having sex with married men knowing they may be destroying marriages . " What would you say to her ? @!DUPRE : First of all , thats a really ballsy question from you . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HAMMER @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ TONIGHT on HLN news and views . And now , the " SHOWBIZ News Ticker " - more stories from the SHOWBIZ TONIGHT newsroom making news today . @!TEXT : Taping of Steven Seagals reality show halted after sex abuse lawsuit is filed against him . Angelina Jolie shows off her tattooed back to " Entertainment Weekly . " @!ANDERSON : We welcome you back to SHOWBIZ TONIGHT . Im Brooke Anderson in Hollywood with A.J. Hammer in New York . @!HAMMER : So Pam Anderson says all that talk about Kate Gosselin being a total diva on " Dancing with the Stars " - well , she does nt see it . Pam and Kate are competing on this season of " Dancing . " There have been all kinds of reports that Kate is just a nightmare on the show . But Pam tells CNNs Larry King Kate is A-OK. @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) PAM @!ANDERSON , ACTRESS : I see her , you know , when were getting our hair and makeup done and we talk about kids . But she has nt really been - shes just been nice @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : Were you surprised at that ? P. @!ANDERSON : Everyones having little meltdowns . Theres a lot of tears on the show , a lot of tears . @!KING : Do you have them , too ? P. @!ANDERSON : I havent had any yet . No , Im not going to . @!KING : You and Kate both single working moms . P. @!ANDERSON : Yes . @!KING : Do you relate to her at all ? P. @!ANDERSON : Well , yes , we do talk about the kids and my schedule is around my kids so Im always say I have to go here . I have to make dinner . And Im going to rehearse here . So thats about it . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!ANDERSON : Well , as Kate Gosselin has said , love her , hate her , she brings in the ratings . And I think shes right because " Dancing with the Stars " is kicking some serious butt , giving the one-time king of reality shows , " American Idol , " a run for its money . But what is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ millions and millions of people ? SHOWBIZ TONIGHT investigates the obsession with " Dancing with the Stars " and " American Idol . " @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @(voice-over) : Whats the recipe for a hit TV show ? It may include borrowing ingredients from the past . Take one part " Dance Fever , " borrow the spirit of competition from " Star Search , " throw in a humorous host and a panel of judges like " The Gong Show , " add a sprinkle of solid gold sequins and top it off with celebrity guests . Sound familiar ? Ratings winners " American Idol " and " Dancing with the Stars " seem a lot like retro re-dos of classic TV variety shows . @!NIECY-NASH- " DANCI : I think its one of the shows people wish they could put themselves in the middle of it all . I mean , you know ? Who does nt want to know how to dance ? @!ANDERSON : Mary Murphy is a veteran TV entertainment journalist . She says the throwback feel of " Idol " and " Dancing with the Stars @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!MARY-MURPHY-TV-EN : The appeal of these shows applies to multi-generations who grew up on shows like this . Its the same thing . It shifts , forms and here we are in the present . And we have these amazing shows , the most popular shows on television . @!ANDERSON : Murphy says viewers also like having a say on whose dancing days are over . @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL : Lets find out who is safe and who will be going home . @!ANDERSON : And which " Idol " wannabe will sing on for another week . @!RYAN-SEACREST-HOS : Crystal , you are safe . You may take a seat . Congratulations . @!ANDERSON : " American Idols " ratings are down slightly from the beginning of the season . " Dancing with the Stars " has swept up some of those viewers . But both shows are well ahead of the competition in the TV ratings game . So , what do the stars of these shows say is the secret to their success ? @!DEREK-HOUGH- " DANC : Guys like to watch because girls are in hot dresses . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!SEACREST : You know , with successful programs , youve got to connect on a universal emotion . I think thats the universal emotion , is that all of us want at some point in our lives to be on stage . @!ANDERSON : So do people tune in as Ryan Seacrest suggested to Larry King to secretly live out their own Hollywood dreams ? Is it the joy of watching a talented single mom rocket to fame ? @(SINGING) Or , is it seeing celebrities do something out of their comfort zone ? Maybe the simple answer is that people have always found dancing and singing entertaining . And it seems they still do . @!SIMON-COWELL-JUDG : Were going to see you next week . @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!ANDERSON : OK . So , lets battle it out right here , right now on SHOWBIZ TONIGHT . It is our exclusive SHOWBIZ TONIGHT poll - " Dancing with the Stars versus American Idol : Which show do you like better ? " Vote at CNN.com/ShowbizTonight . E-mail us at showbiztonight@cnn.com @!HAMMER : Well , Jessica Simpson certainly has evolved , has @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sporting a short hairdo . And now , shes getting ready to date again . Yes . If youre a regular guy , youre in luck . Jessica reveals the man shes looking for . Fed up and furious . Elin Woods , Charlie Sheens wife , Sandra Bullock . SHOWBIZ TONIGHT dares to ask who should get divorced first and who will get divorced first ? And " South Park " slams - well , just about everybody . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Excuse me . This is the home of Tom Cruise , right ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Hey , its one of the kids from " South Park " that slandered me. @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HAMMER : Tom Cruise , Oprah , Jennifer Lopez . But did Cartman and the boys go too far ? This is SHOWBIZ TONIGHT on HLN news and views . And now , the " SHOWBIZ News Ticker " - more stories from the SHOWBIZ TONIGHT newsroom making news today . @!TEXT : Eminems follow-up to his Grammy Award winning " Relapse " will be called " Recovery . " Bon Jovi has the highest-grossing tour @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Lets get right to it . Octumom and her 14 kids wont be octu-homeless for now . And a surprising Hollywood split . It is all in " The Buzz " today . @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @(voice-over) : A shocking Hollywood split . Melissa Etheridge has just announced she is breaking up with her partner , Tammy , after nine years together . Melissa and Tammy exchanged vows in 2003 and Tammy later gave birth to their now three-year-old twins . Melissas statement is saying , " We ask for consideration and respect for our family as we go through this difficult period . " The octumom wont be homeless . The mom of 14 , Nadya Suleman , has been given a six-month extension on her $450,000 balloon mortgage payment . Sulemans attorney says he struck a deal after months of negotiation with the loan holder . He also says the octumom should be able to come up with the cash . Shes got some stuff cooking that he cant talk about yet . Jessica Simpson wants a new boyfriend but he needs to be , quote , " normal @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ players , no rockers , maybe a doctor or even a chef . Even Jessicas mom is chiming saying she would love to see her daughter with a doctor or businessman . Hey , whoever she ends up with , lets just hope he keeps quiet about their sex life . @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!ANDERSON : Two big controversies going on right now on the SHOWBIZ TONIGHT Facebook wall . The " Desperate Housewives " cast coming out defending the shows creator , Marc Cherry . Now , he s being sued by a former cast member , Nicollette Sheridan , who says Marc assaulted her , smacked her in the face and then fired her when she complained . Vickie R. writes , " Of course , they are . They are nt stupid . They know what side their bread is buttered on . " Were also getting a lot of wall posts about Hugh Hefner who is slamming Tiger Woods and Jesse James . Gianna says , " It is true that Hugh Hefner has had many girlfriends even while married , but he has not lied to the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on Facebook . Join us on Twitter to go behind the scenes of SHOWBIZ TONIGHT and get breaking entertainment news alerts . Call us at " Showbiz on Call . " And theres always E-mail . " Showbiz Connects " - CNN.com/ShowbizTonight. @!HAMMER : And now , the SHOWBIZ lineup - heres whats coming up on SHOWBIZ TONIGHT . Elin Woods , Sandra Bullock , Charlie Sheens wife . SHOWBIZ TONIGHT dares to ask today who should get divorced first and who will get divorced first ? The brand-new Kate Gosselin family feud . Yes , why her own brother is in court claiming Kates eight kids are in danger . And guy scaring people all over the world today with his frightening dog impression . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!JEANNE-MOOS-CNN-C : Multiple choice - please select the scariest bark . Is it A , B or C ? @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HAMMER : Yes . Im going to go with C , the Psycho Dog Man . This is SHOWBIZ TONIGHT on HLN news and views . And now , the " SHOWBIZ News Ticker " - more stories from the SHOWBIZ TONIGHT newsroom @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " star Zac Efron to play money launderer in new movie . Russell Crowes " Robin Hood " to kick off 2010 Cannes Film Festival on May 12. @!HAMMER : Now , on SHOWBIZ TONIGHT , fed up and furious . Elin Woods , Sandra Bullock , Charlie Sheens wife . Big news today about their marriage messes as SHOWBIZ TONIGHT dares to ask , who should get divorced first and who will get divorced first ? Kate Gosselins brand-new family feud today . Kates own brother in court claiming that Kates kids are in danger . And Kates bombshell response . Ashley Dupre , giving advice on the Tiger Woods and Jesse James cheating scandals ? The former escort who brought down New Yorks Governor Eliot Spitzer is naked in " Playboy " and now , one on one with me in an explosive interview . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @(on-camera) : " Dear Ashley , my life has been torn apart by what my husband may have done . As a former escort , help me understand how women can reconcile having sex with married men knowing they may be destroying @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!DUPRE : First of all , thats a really ballsy question from you . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HAMMER : Plus , more stories breaking from the " SHOWBIZ News Ticker. " @!ANNOUNCER : TVs most provocative entertainment news show continues right now . @(MUSIC) @!HAMMER : Welcome back to SHOWBIZ TONIGHT . It is 30 minutes past the hour . Im A.J. Hammer coming to you from New York City . @!ANDERSON : And Im Brooke Anderson in Hollywood with big news breaking today - fed up and furious . @!HAMMER : Furious , indeed , Brooke . Elin Woods , Sandra Bullock , Charlie Sheens wife . There is even more damaging drama today surrounding their marriage messes as SHOWBIZ TONIGHT dares to ask who should get divorced first , who will get divorced first ? Explosive reports today that Charlie Sheens wife , Brooke Mueller , is not only furious but shes so fed up after learning of her husbands alleged cheating scandal that she is ready to file divorce papers . And big news breaking today about Tiger Woods wife , Elin Nordegren . Is she divorce shopping ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ her kids just as Tiger was returning home . With us right now in Hollywood , Wendy Walsh , who is a TV journalist and doctor of psychology . And in New York , Midwin Charles , who is a legal contributor for " In Session " on truTV . All right . So Elin skipped town just as Tiger returned home from the Masters . " People " magazine reporting that she was just fed up . She was just furious that Tiger actually went back to playing golf so soon . Well , late today , we learned that Tiger is going to play again at a tournament in just a couple of weeks in North Carolina . Wendy , off to you first . Im getting the feeling here Elins just had it . @!WALSH : I do nt know if shes just had it . But remember , this is the husband thats under more scrutiny than any husband in America right now . So I really think she should hang in there a bit and let all our eyeballs and TV cameras be on him @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , Elin has plenty of company in the jilted wives club these days . A bombshell report is out there today that Charlie Sheens wife , Brooke is also fed up and furious and ready to pull the plug on her marriage . Now , Midwin , as the attorney we have on retainer here on SHOWBIZ TONIGHT today , I want to get your take on this . If it happened - obviously , this is not good news for Charlie if she files for divorce before he goes on trial for allegedly attacking her . After all , shes been standing by him until now . @!CHARLES : It wont look good , thats for sure . I mean , oftentimes , whenever someone is on trial , it is always great to have that supporting and loving spouse by their side . So if she is to file for divorce before he goes to trial , it may not bode well for him . Its not going to be a very sexy look . @!HAMMER : Well , we did reach out to Brookes attorney today . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ wife that we havent seen or heard from in some weeks is Sandra Bullock who has been undercover , of course , since her husband Jesse James alleged cheating scandal first broke . And that has us wondering how fed up and furious she still is . I imagine pretty much so . SHOWBIZ TONIGHT now dares to ask , of all of the jilted wives who are fed up and furious , who is going to be the one to divorce first ? Is it going to be Tiger Woods wife , Elin Nordegren ? Is it going to be Charlie Sheens wife , Brooke Mueller ? Or will it be Americas sweetheart , Sandra Bullock ? Midwin , right back at you . Who do you think is going to file those divorce papers first ? @!CHARLES : I vote for Elin Nordegren . I think she has been through a heck of a lot of humiliation in light of Tigers actions . And I think he put her and her children at risk by having all these relationships with women . And of course , all the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ happened . I think shes on her way to rolling out . @!HAMMER : All right . Elin down from Midwin . Over to you , Wendy , who do you think is going to file those divorce papers first ? Are you with Midwin here ? @!WALSH : Actually , no . I think Sandra . Shes got the most power . Shes got the most financial power . Shes got the most social power , celebrity power . There are no children involved in this particular union . I mean , he has his own children , but they did nt make any together . Shell have no problem getting a date and having enough money to provide for herself in the future . Shes going to file , trust me. @!HAMMER : See , I actually think its going to be Brooke Mueller , Charlie Sheens wife , filing first . The reason for that is because of the other two - you know , Elin , for whatever reason , has been dragging it on and on and staying with Tiger Woods despite the fact that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ has gotten . I think in Sandra Bullocks case , you know , theyre really going to wait for the dust to settle there . I have a feeling that we may actually see Brooke be the first to file . Of course , as we said , that could be really bad news for Charlie . So now that you voted on who will divorce first , I actually have to ask you on the other foot who should file the divorce papers first , who should just get it out and do it now . Midwin , back to you . Who , in your mind , should file those papers ? @!CHARLES : Once again I vote for Elin Nordegren . She should have filed for divorce almost as soon as those girls started coming out of the woodwork . She should have been out of there . And Im sorry , I do nt buy the fact they have two children as the reason as to why she should stick around any longer . He s a golfer . He has to play golf in order @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ probably put himself in situations to continue cheating . @!HAMMER : He does nt have to keep playing golf because he does nt have to keep making money . See , I do nt think its the money that motivates him anymore . People keep talking about the money thing - and Midwin , I do nt know if you disagree with me on that . I actually think he does it because this is what he s always done . At this point , does he really need more money ? I mean , seriously . Wendy , what about you ? Do you think that it should be Tiger Woods or Elin Nordegren filing for divorce first ? @!WALSH : Well , disagree with my colleague , Midwin . I think when there are children involved , a lot of different decisions , more higher level thinking , have to take place because they are far more important . And children from two-parent families do a whole lot better . But you know who should ? Brooke and Charlie . Because Im old enough to remember that he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ madam , Heidi Fleiss . So the best way to predict somebodys future behavior is their past behavior . There are allegations of domestic violence - @!HAMMER : Yes . @!WALSH : Drug use , frequent , you know , sexual activity . All this stuff is bad , bad , bad and does nt bode well for a healthy marriage . So Brooke , boot him out . @!HAMMER : And the truth is if there is domestic violence that actually took place as is alleged , you know , thats a game closer right there as far as Im concerned . @!WALSH : Right there . @!HAMMER : Speaking of fed up and furious , Kate Gosselin just furious that her brother just testified against her at a hearing to investigate if any child labor laws were broken during the filming of " Jon & Kate Plus 8 . " Watch what she told HLNs own Joy Behar about this . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!KATE-GOSSELIN-REA : My brother has made a lot of money off of saying things that are untrue about us . And he has not - Ive @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ so Im not quite sure what information they think that they might have . But I cant - every single time they were visiting , my kids , they would turn around and be on some sort of a show the next day talking about , you know , what it is that they saw inside our house . And so , with that kind of trust ruined and knowing that they have made hundreds of thousands of dollars on lies about us , Im not sure what their goals are , because they were a part of our show and things were all fine and dandy then . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HAMMER : All right . Ive got to tell you there are a lot of people out there who are pretty sick and tired of Kate getting dumped on constantly . And theyre not letting her move forward . I mean , I am the first to admit I was pretty tough on her when she had " Jon and Kate Plus 8 " on the air , putting the kids on television . I never thought that was a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ think now , shes making money . Shes taking care of the family . People should really leave her alone and not be so hard on her ? @!CHARLES : I think I agree with you . People should leave her alone . But every time you try to , she is out there whining and complaining about her lot in life . I watch " Dancing with the Stars " and at the end of every episode , shes always whining and complaining about media scrutiny and the paparazzi . @!HAMMER : Yes . @!CHARLES : So she keeps injecting herself into the situation . So of course , she is not going to be left alone . @!HAMMER : Quickly , Wendy , do you think the smartest thing for her to do is keep raking in the money but keep your mouth closed at this point ? @!WALSH : You know , the entertainment industry is one of the few industries where you can make a lot of money in a short period of time . When youre a single mother and you have eight kids to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ know , complain about the barking , but she did nt call on the dogs . @!HAMMER : All right . Wendy Walsh , Midwin Charles , thanks , guys . We appreciate it . As we move on tonight " South Park " just opened a big old can of controversy in its latest episode . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Excuse me . This is the home of Tom Cruise , right ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Hey , its one of the kids from " South Park " that slandered me. @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HAMMER : I love " South Park . " And everybody knows " South Park " is an equal opportunity offender . No one was off limits here . Why every star who has ever been skewered on the show came back to fight back . Ashley Dupree , the former call girl who brought down New York Governor Eliot Spitzer . Wait until you see my explosive interview with Ashley . You are going to be shocked when you hear what she told me about the Tiger and Jesse sex scandals . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @(on-camera) : " Dear Ashley @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ husband may have done . As a former escort , help me understand how women can reconcile having sex with married men knowing they may be destroying marriages . What would you say to her ? @!DUPRE : First of all , thats a really ballsy question from you . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HAMMER : This is SHOWBIZ TONIGHT on HLN news and views . And now , the " SHOWBIZ News Ticker " - more stories from the SHOWBIZ TONIGHT newsroom making news today . @!TEXT : Alleged Tiger Woods mistress Jaimee Grubbs arrested in L.A. for driving violations . Carrie Underwood and Elton John set to perform on " Idol Gives Back " next week . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Mr. Cruise , my son is so , so sorry and he would do anything to take back his hurtful comments . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Thats nice . Im still suing you all . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HAMMER : Did you see this ? Pretty outrageous . The new " South Park " that marks the shows 200th episode really , really funny . This show always sparks outrage . But did South Park @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to SHOWBIZ TONIGHT . Im A.J. Hammer in New York with Brooke Anderson in Hollywood . @!ANDERSON : A.J. , amid all the laughs , big controversy over the new episode of South Park . For its 200th episode , the creators of South Park brought back every celebrity it has ever mocked and made fun of . From Tom Cruise to Britney Spears to Mel Gibson , nobody was spared . They all came back to " South Park . " And this time , they came back with a vengeance and a class-action lawsuit . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : There is one thing that your town could do to maybe make me forget about this lawsuit . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Anything . Anything you want , Mr. Cruise . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Its just that theres somebody Ive always wanted to meet face to face . If you could get him to show up in your town - @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Sure , who is it ? We can get anybody for you . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Mohammed , the prophet of the Muslim faith . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Oh , thats tricky . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Mr. Cruise , if there is anybody else we could try to bring in town . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : No , just him . You get Mohammed to appear in " South Park " or your little town is done . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!ANDERSON : " South Park " even reviving one of its biggest controversies ever - they made fun of the Muslim prophet Mohammed again , but also skewered other religions , too , including Judaism , Christianity and Buddhism . @!HAMMER : Right now , Ashley Dupres explosive sex scandal advice for Sandra Bullock and Elin Woods . And its the interview seen only on SHOWBIZ TONIGHT . Now , Dupre is the former call girl whose hook-ups with Eliot Spitzer led to him resigning as the governor of New York two years ago . Dupre has just posed naked for the brand-new issue of " Playboy " magazine . And now , shes also giving out sex and romance advice as a columnist for the " New York Post . " So since Ashley knows all about earth-shattering sex scandals , of course , I had @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Sandra . And thats when the fireworks started . @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @(on-camera) : Youre writing your sex and relationship column for the " New York Post . " @!DUPRE : I am. @!HAMMER : Thats going well for you ? @!DUPRE : Going very well . Im really excited . And Im getting a lot of interesting questions . And I really hope that - to have that develop and grow . @!HAMMER : Well , speaking of interesting questions , just curious if you were to get a letter from Sandra Bullock , you might be able to provide some insight . Let me read what perhaps she might write to you if she were to write . " Dear Ashley , my life has been torn apart by what my husband may have done . As a former escort , help me understand how women can reconcile having sex with married men knowing they may be destroying marriages . " What would you say to her ? @!DUPRE : Well , you know , first of all , thats a really ballsy question from you . But I would @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ therapy . And if she really loves him , then they can make the relationship work . But they need to good to therapy and they need to see if theyre able - if shes able to forgive him . You know , if every time a phone rings or a text message comes through , if shes going to feel insecure , its not good for her . @!HAMMER : Cant possibly work . @!DUPRE : No , walk away , leave . I mean , shes beautiful . Shes gorgeous . Like she does nt deserve that . @!HAMMER : OK . Heres another one . What if you got this letter from Tiger Woods wife Elin ? @!DUPRE : Oh , my god . Im here to talk about " Playboy , " not this . Lets go - come on . My issue is coming out on Friday the 16th and you have me in the hot seat talking about all the scandals . And oh , my god . @!HAMMER : And we will circle back to this . But I like - I really @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ say that Tiger Woods wife , Elin , wrote you saying , " Dear Ashley , my husband may have paid many women to have sex with him . I do nt understand why he did this but he says he wants to stay together . Do you think I should forgive him ? " @!DUPRE : I believe we do nt know the situation . We do nt know what theyre going through . We do nt know what kind of therapy theyre getting . And you know , they are going to figure it out . @!HAMMER : Is forgiveness possible ? @!DUPRE : It depends . @!HAMMER : Sure . @!DUPRE : It depends on the situation . @!HAMMER : Sure . @!DUPRE : Absolutely depends on the situation . @!HAMMER : I agree with that . When you look at - @!DUPRE : And you know what , Im not Elin . And Im not Tiger . @!HAMMER : Understood . But just stepping back because certainly , everybodys been talking about this . And people have said and certainly weve seen people say , " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ couple indiscretions , they work it out . Theyre able to move on . " You know , he has allegedly been involved with so many women . @!HAMMER : But think about it - hold on a minute , A.J. Come on . Lets back it up a little bit . Lets look at , OK , guys that cheat . If they get caught with that one girl , they get caught with one girl . But how many girls were there before that one girl ? Chances are they are not just cheating on - with one girl . Theres always more . So forget about the number . If their relationship - if they can make it work and they love each other and they go to therapy , then work it out . But if not , its not healthy for the children . Go to therapy and figure out how youre going to come together and raise the children together as a family . @!HAMMER : When you look at Sandras situation and when you look at Elins situation , who do you feel @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do nt - I feel sorry for both of them . They are publicly humiliated . I mean , my situation was completely different . But I did nt ask for this , OK . I was pretty much , " Here you go . Figure it out . " Put in this situation . And you know what ? Two years - Ive spent two years trying to figure it out . And Im not giving up fighting for who I am rather than what people think I am and I wont stop fighting . @!HAMMER : Well , you shouldnt. @!DUPRE : No . And Im not going to . @!HAMMER : Because life will continue @(CROSS-TALK) @!DUPRE : And I refuse to let my mistakes define me as a person . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HAMMER : Well , Ashley calls her life now a work in progress . And shes trying to put her past behind her by posing in " Playboy . " You can see Ashley on the cover and uncovered in " Playboys " new issue available everywhere Friday . @!ANDERSON : Did you see this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Say hello to the Psycho Dog Man . The unbelievable video of him going doggone crazy during a news interview is now a worldwide sensation . This guy is being interviewed on Australian TV . Suddenly , he turns the table on the news reporter - yes , Im going to go there . But who let the dog out ? @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!MOOS : Multiple choice . Please select the scariest bark . Is it A , B , or C ? @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!ANDERSON : Oh , its C. This is SHOWBIZ TONIGHT on HLN news and views . @!HAMMER : And now , the " SHOWBIZ News Ticker " - more stories from the SHOWBIZ TONIGHT newsroom making news today . @!TEXT : DreamWorks to convert first three " Shrek " movies to 3-D for Blu-Ray release . " South Park " bringing " The Book of Mormon " to Broadway in 2011. @!ANDERSON : Did you see this ? The Internet has been buzzing about this Psycho Dog Man . An Australian man was being interviewed for a new show and decided to show off his mean growl @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Heres CNNs Jeanne Moos for SHOWBIZ TONIGHT . @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @!MOOS-@1voice-over@ : Multiple choice . Please select the scariest bark . Is it A , B or C ? Quiet , Ray , who now answers to the name - @(on-camera) : Is this the Psycho Dog Man ? @!RAY-GRAHAM- " PSYCH : Its me . Its me . Youve got him . @!MOOS-@1voice-over@ : This Australian retiree became an Internet sensation after the show , " A Current Affair , " came to his suburb outside Sydney and it interviewed him about two dangerous dogs living in the neighborhood . @!GRAHAM : And as soon as they saw me , they came bounding over . @!MOOS : The bark heard round the world . Plastered on blogs . Psycho dog man got his own Facebook page . Ray Grahams ferocious imitation was turned into remix after remix . Even his wifes face was much remarked on . Barely a flinch . Ray says he s never before done a dog imitation . @!GRAHAM : Absolute spur of the moment . @!MOOS : And yet his bark is scarier than even @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ contest . Rays is far more terrifying than the bark of an 86-year-old man who encountered a bear in his house . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : By impulse I went - @!MOOS : The bear ran for the Woods . Online admirers have compared Ray to Cujo . A recording of the Psycho Dog Mans voice had New York canines like pudding and all are backing off , though Rocky just wagged his tail . @(voice-over) : Ray says he has no plans to try to make any money from his dog imitation , though an advertising agency has tried to get in touch with him . @!GRAHAM : I think its hilarious , absolutely hilarious . @!MOOS : And Rays imitation has sparked imitators with bonus underpants. @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : As soon as I saw them , they came bounding over and - @!MOOS : Now , Ray is doing it on command . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Go on . @!MOOS : Posted one person , " That guy needs to be put down . " Speak , Ray . Ray , whats your wife doing right now ? @!GRAHAM : She was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was Jeanne Moos for SHOWBIZ TONIGHT . And I just had to check out Psycho Dog Mans Facebook fan page . He s already got 5,000 fans . @!HAMMER : Weird stuff on that Internet , Brooke . All right . That is it for SHOWBIZ TONIGHT . Im A.J. Hammer in New York . @!ANDERSON : Im Brooke Anderson in Hollywood . SHOWBIZ TONIGHT now live at 5:00 p.m . Eastern Monday through Friday . @!HAMMER : And please do nt forget , every night , were still TVs most provocative entertainment news show seven days a week , 11:00 p.m . Eastern and Pacific .

@@4072941 SEAN @!HANNITY , FOX NEWS ANCHOR : All right , from its refusal to call this a war on terrorism to its vocabulary of man caused disasters and overseas contingency operations , this administration has shown a consistent inability to face up to our enemies and in this regard it has been a very tough week , a badder ( ph ) week for Attorney General Eric Holder . It appears that Mr. Holder well , is at a loss when it comes to what may have inspired the recent terrorist attacks against the U.S. Now , take a look at this exchange that he had with Texas Congressman Lamar Smith during his appearance before the House Judiciary Committee . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!REP-LAMAR-SMITH-@1 : Do you feel that these individuals might have been incited to take the actions that they did because of radical Islam ? @!ERIC-HOLDER-ATTOR : Because of ? @!SMITH : Radical Islam ? @!HOLDER : There are a variety of reasons why I think people have taken these actions . @!SMITH : But radical Islam could have been one of the reasons ? @!HOLDER : There are a variety of reasons that -- @!SMITH : But so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are a variety of reasons why people do these things some are potentially religious -- @!SMITH : Yes but all I 'm asking is if you think among those variety of reasons , radical Islam might have been one of the reasons that the individuals took the steps that they did ? @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HANNITY : All right , now that performance was followed shortly by the Attorney General 's embarrassing admission regarding his stance on the Arizona immigration law . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!SMITH : Have you read the Arizona law ? @!HOLDER : I have not had a chance to . I 've glanced at it ; I have not read it . @!SMITH : It 's 10 pages , it 's a lot shorter than the health care bill which was 2,000 pages long . I 'll give you my copy of it if you would like to have a copy . It 's hard for me to understand how you would have concerns about something being unconstitutional if you have n't even read the law . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HANNITY : All right , so given this performance . Does Holder @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ranking law enforcement official ? And joining me now as reaction to all of that is the former governor of the great state of Arkansas , the host of his own show right here on this channel , Mike Huckabee . Governor good to see you , thanks for being here . @!MIKE-HUCKABEE-FOX : Great to see you . @!HANNITY : You know , the funny thing is , is before he admitted he was n't briefed on the law , did n't read the law , the Arizona immigration law . He was on " Meet the Press " saying we 're concerned this is -- this law is about racial profiling , we may file a suit about this . And then this admission -- he never -- and by the way its 17 pages if you print it out . @!HUCKABEE : Yes . @!HANNITY : He admits he never read it . @!HUCKABEE : Well , it 's -- I 'll tell you what has happened this week , Eric Holder has made Robert Gibbs look good which I was not sure was possible . But @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!HUCKABEE : Because he 's taken two hits from Congressmen from Texas , I call it Texas two , the Obama administration zero . It was a bad week in admitting -- @!HANNITY : Correct . @!HUCKABEE : -- that he had never read the law . @!HANNITY : Here is the problem , though , because the president himself , you know , he has a law background . He 's supposed to be the smartest guy in -- @!HUCKABEE : A law professor . @!HANNITY : A law professor -- all right , he never read the law . He 's -- look , either he did n't read it and he 's ignorant and did n't interpreting it properly or he 's purposely politicizing it when he said , well , you might go in an ice cream shop -- @!HUCKABEE : Yes . @!HANNITY : -- and then we ask him where your papers are . I 've read the law , four specific times -- @!HUCKABEE : Yes . @!HANNITY : -- it says specifically you can not racially profile . @!HUCKABEE : I too @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ would get in trouble in an ice cream parlor if you tried to steal the ice cream -- @!HANNITY : Yes . @!HUCKABEE : -- before the officer came in . But other than that -- @!HANNITY : He ca n't -- @!HUCKABEE : -- that 's not an issue . The unfortunate thing is that this law is becoming this lightning rod for a debate that ought to have been solved by Congress taking care of securing the borders in the first place . What I do n't understand is the one Constitutional responsibility of the President and the federal government have is to secure borders . They are not responsible for making you buy health insurance , picking CEOs , owning car companies , bailing out insurance companies and banks . They are responsible for taking care of the border . But what they are supposed to do they do n't what they 're not supposed to do , they are doing . @!HANNITY : Yes , but I -- the sinister side of this , it 's having an impact . The board of the LA city @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : Yes . @!HANNITY : D.C. is now trying to follow suit . This girls basketball team in Illinois -- @!HUCKABEE : A terrible situation , yes . @!HANNITY : -- they won their first conference championship in 26 years they ca n't -- they were selling cookies and having bake sales , they ca n't go . The all-star game may be pulled from Arizona now . So -- so the misrepresentation , purposeful misrepresentation is having an impact . @!HUCKABEE : Well , that 's not fair to Arizona . I do think Arizona is probably going to up spending a lot of money defending itself in court . That 's probably going to happen . You can rest assured the ACLU is hoping as soon as this law goes into effect in July that they can find somebody who can claim that they were harassed by the police that this law was violated , where someone asked them first before a quote , " legal contact " . It could have a chilling effect on people coming forward and telling police officers what they saw in the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ make of the exchange - it 's almost like who 's on first ? Who -- you know -- @!HUCKABEE : Yes . @!HANNITY : -- what 's on second and I do n't know who 's on third base . Listening to Eric Holder , thread this needle his unwillingness to admit that there were radical or could be radical Islamic terrorist connections to the attempted Times Square bombing . @!HUCKABEE : Sean , it 's inexplicable why this administration has a hard time understanding that the real enemy America faces is Jihadism carried out by radical Islam . That does n't mean that we castigate every Muslim in the world as being radical and being a Jihadist . But you can not look at what has happened even in places like Little Rock where this guy goes by and shoots two young soldiers out of recruiting station . What happened with the Times Square car bomber ? What has happened with the attempted underwear bomber ? Every bit of this is Islamic Jihadism. @!HANNITY : But -- and in every single case there 's this rush by the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ no terrorist connection . This is a lone wolf . And every time they turn out to be wrong . @!HUCKABEE : This is the polar opposite of what used to be where we had a conspiracy theory every time there was an assassination whether it was John F. Kennedy , Martin Luther King , Robert F. Kennedy and we said there was a conspiracy it turned out they can only pin it on the lone assassin . In this case they are rushing to try to say it was a lone assassin but it 's part of a greater network -- @!HANNITY : Right . @!HUCKABEE : -- of pure evil and we just have to call it what it is. @!HANNITY : Here 's the big question , because of their unwillingness to do so and , you know , their lack of willingness to address that there is a real war with a real enemy that we have really identified , radical Islamists , does that -- here 's the question , does that weaken , does that create a susceptibility , a vulnerability for the American @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? @!HUCKABEE : Well , I think we 're more likely to be not only attacked or more likely for -- to be unable to defend ourselves or to preempt it because we 're so politically correct , we 're so afraid and that 's why you have 80-year-old ladies with blue hair and a walker getting the shake down at an airport . And somebody can come right behind them , but we do n't want to do anything even though it might be an 18 to 30-year-old - - @!HANNITY : Nobody gets wanted more than me. @!HUCKABEE : No , I do . @!HANNITY : Nobody gets want -- I have a bull's-eye wand Hannity it says on my back . @!HUCKABEE : Well , then the two of us should never go to an airport together because we 'll shut the whole thing down . @!HANNITY : All right , pretty frightening time . @!HUCKABEE : It is. @!HANNITY : Governor , we 'll be watching this weekend . @!HUCKABEE : All right , thanks . @!HANNITY : Thanks for being with us . And there @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!DAVID-HOROWITZ-FR : For or against it ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL : For it . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HANNITY : Chilling video of the clash between conservative David Horowitz and a Muslim college student . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!SARAH-PALIN-FORME : That 's enough federal government , that 's enough of your overreach and we 're going to do something about it . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HANNITY : Governor Sarah Palin makes a bold prediction about the 2010 midterms . All of that , plus the teacher who brutally beat one of her students speaks out . @!HANNITY-continues , # @!HANNITY : Governor Sarah Palin was in Washington today and on the subject of the midterm elections she predicts one group of voters will have a major impact this November . Take a look . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!PALIN : I think a whole lot of moms who are concerned about government handing our kids the bill generational theft too are stealing opportunities from the future of America we rise up and moms say come on that 's enough , that is enough and we 're going to do something about this . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HANNITY : All right , look @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!HANNITY : And tonight in " Your America " : it is the chilling video from a college campus right here in America . An unusual exchange between conservative David Horowitz and a Muslim student at the University of California San Diego and it was all caught on tape . Now , in a minute we 'll get reaction from David Horowitz himself . But first , take a look at this . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HOROWITZ : Will you condemn Hamas here and now ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL : I 'm sorry , what ? @!HOROWITZ : Will you condemn Hamas ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL : Would I condemn Hamas ? @!HOROWITZ : As a terrorist -- genocide -- @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL : Are you asking me to put myself on a cross ? If I say something I 'm sure that I will be arrested . For reasons of homeland security , so if you could please just answer my questions ? @!HOROWITZ : If you condemn Hamas -- Homeland Security will arrest you ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL : If I support Hamas . Because your question forces me to condemn Hamas , if I support Hamas @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you do n't condemn Hamas obviously , you support it , case closed . I 'm a Jew . The head of Hezbollah has said that he hopes that we will gather in Israel so he does n't have to hunt us down globally . For it or against it ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL : For it . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HANNITY : Wow . And here with more on the stunning video are the editor of FrontPagemagazine.com , David Horowitz and Mark Levine , the author of " Heavy Metal Islam " and a professor of history at the University of California in Irvine . David , that 's -- that 's chilling especially in light of the fact that -- this is a no-brainer . You know , when she was out there saying I 'll be hung from a cross if I -- Homeland Security will be after me . She is acknowledging in that statement she knows Hamas is a terrorist organization . @!HOROWITZ : Right . @!HANNITY : And she would n't condemn it so she is saying she supports it , checkmate . @!HOROWITZ : It 's - @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as victims . The really chilling aspect of this is that it 's going on now at -- all across the country . The Muslim Students Association is an arm of the Muslim brotherhood . I was at you UC San Diego because they are holding an apartheid , Israel Apartheid week which is a genocidal hate week . It was funded by $40,000 in student funds . Its centerpiece is an apartheid wall which is a lie itself of Hitlerian ( ph ) proportions because the Israel security fence has nothing to do with ethnicity . There are a million , a million Muslim Arabs , Palestinians , living in Israel with more rights than the Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank or Jordan or Arabs anywhere in the Arab world . That security fence is because of a genocidal campaign , rockets , suicide attacks on Israeli civilians and that was the only way to stop them . @!HANNITY : Mark -- @!HOROWITZ : In the university there are 23 universities now attacking Israel ; that the war presents Jews , as murderers of innocence , occupiers @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ -- @!HANNITY : Look -- @!HOROWITZ : -- this woman was honest enough to admit it . @!HANNITY : Well , she was . And this is what 's amazing . And this student group , correct me if I 'm wrong , David and I want to go to Mark here . It got $40,775 from the university for that semester . Is that number correct ? @!HOROWITZ : That 's exactly right . And they are getting it -- @!HANNITY : Right . @!HOROWITZ : -- at all the other universities as well . @!HANNITY : All right , Mark , your -- you 're reaction . Here 's Hamas , part of its charter is the destruction of the State of Israel . Here 's a student given an opportunity to condemn Hamas , a terror group , she would n't do it . Your reaction ? @!MARK-LEVINE-UC-IR : Well , first of all , thanks for having me back on . I think before I give the reaction I really would like Mr. Horowitz to answer the young woman 's question at the beginning about this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ quote , unquote , " arm of the Muslim brotherhood " . I mean , I have n't seen evidence to that . I do n't even know what that means . And these kinds of accusations when someone asks you a question instead of answering it you go on the attack about another question and then keep provoking and take a woman who obviously was n't thinking very cogently or coherently and get her to say all this nonsense which clearly is hate building , condemnable , I mean , no one is going to argue with that . But there still is a point that accusations are constantly being made that are not given any support . And I think you know , this is part of the same problem . I see him , I see Mr. Horowitz as being the opposite side of the coin with her . Just what he said just now when he 's saying all the things that using the apartheid law , or all of these means , your anti-Israel , when there are many Israelis -- Israeli Jews who use @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the law and against international law and it 's so hateful . So to make these kind of accusations you know , it 's really like throwing -- @!HANNITY : I give David a chance to talk . @!LEVINE : -- stones when you have a glass house . @!HOROWITZ : Ok , this is both disingenuous and dishonest because Mark Levine is a supporter of these hate leagues and a supporter of the Muslim Student Association . @!LEVINE : Ok , no , no , you can not say and without proving it . I do not support it . Prove that I support them . You 're lying . I 'm calling you a liar on international television . Prove it . Either prove it or take that back , right now . @!HANNITY : Wait a minute , let David respond . @!LEVINE : But he 's lying . @!HOROWITZ : Mark Levine , well you -- @!LEVINE : No , show me the proof . @!HOROWITZ : It 's hard to talk when somebody is interrupting you all the time . You are at UC Irvine @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ worst campus in terms of intimidating , harassing Jewish students . You are -- you step in as an apologist for these -- @!LEVINE : Prove it . @!HANNITY : Mark , let him finish . @!LEVINE : Ok sorry . @!HOROWITZ : Well , you know , yes , anybody watching -- anybody watching this show can go up on the Internet and find you and find what you say . @!LEVINE : That 's not proof . @!HOROWITZ : My question to the woman -- my question to the woman about Hamas was an answer to her question . The Muslim Brotherhood created Hamas . And the Muslim Students Association is part of the Muslim Brotherhood Network . And we know this -- @!LEVINE : Said who ? @!HOROWITZ : -- because -- @!HANNITY : He 's answering let him answer . @!HOROWITZ : -- we know this because during the Holy Land Foundation trial , the Holy Land Foundation was an alleged charity which was funding Hamas . And the FBI produced a raid of their offices and among the documents they found was a plan from @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ America " . And among the organizations named by the Muslim Brotherhood as part of their organizational plan was the Muslim Students Association care the Muslim American Society which is another supporter of these events . @!HANNITY : We 're running out of time -- @(CROSSTALK) @!HANNITY : Let me -- hang on one second , David hang on one second . @!HOROWITZ : Yes . @!HANNITY : Because we are running out of time and I want to get to the bottom of this . @!HOROWITZ : Absolutely . @!HANNITY : You did not answer Mark , yet my question and I go back to it . I want you -- do you condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization ? @!LEVINE : Absolutely . And I 'm on record on every book I 've ever written in saying that . @!HANNITY : And Hezbollah , so the student that is part of this that is getting student funds . You heard her answer . @!HOROWITZ : Right . @!HANNITY : And so the question is , why would -- why would the student and this organization get any student @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ out and condemn a terrorist organization ? @!LEVINE : Well , you know if you 're going to start making these kinds of litmus tests for getting student funds you could also look at right wing groups -- @(CROSSTALK) @!HANNITY : And I -- stop . @!LEVINE : Listen , listen let me finish , we have the -- @!HANNITY : Should this student group get any student funds ? @!LEVINE : As long as every other student group has the right to get funds regardless of their political views then this group has to . @!HANNITY : So . @!LEVINE : You want to make a change against that then you have to make it to everyone like the Ayn Rand Society whose president has a debate with me , said he supported the genocide of the American Indians . Should they be getting student funds ? I mean , this is free speech this is what the American campus is about . @!HANNITY : And that 's the answer if that was true . David , last word for David -- go ahead . @!HOROWITZ : This man @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the last time you 're on this show -- @!HOROWITZ : I have an article -- @!LEVINE : -- you admitted you never even wrote -- you never even wrote an article about me accusing me of this . @!HOROWITZ : I have an -- @!HANNITY : Last word David . @!HOROWITZ : I have an article written by him appearing in al Jazeera magazine in which what he says of Hamas is that Hamas is willing to recognize Israel and the Israelis are liars for saying that they do n't . Hamas has in its charter that Islam will obliterate Israel . And in its charter there 's a saying of the prophet that the day of judgment will only come when the Muslims kill the Jews . @(CROSSTALK) @!HANNITY : All right . We have to go . Guys , thank you . We are out of time . And there is plenty more @!HANNITY coming up , straight ahead . Please stay with us. @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL : I am very regretful . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HANNITY : The teacher caught on tape beating a 13-year-old student breaks her silence @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ your children 's weight . Plus , comedian Jay Mohr is here with his hilarious new book . Much more @!HANNITY straight ahead . '

@@4073041 BRET @!BAIER , FOX NEWS ANCHOR : President Obama promises a 24/7 effort until the gulf region is better than it was before the oil spill . Could the disaster be the impetus behind the move away from oil as America 's number one energy source ? The rhetoric versus reality . And we 'll tell you why congressional Democrats are working without a budget . Live from our studio in Washington , this is SPECIAL REPORT . Good evening . I 'm Bret Baier . President Obama is in the gulf region tonight making his fourth trip in the 56 days since the BP oil spill began . We have FOX team coverage tonight . Senior political analyst Brit Hume has some thoughts about the president 's approach to the disaster . Correspondent James Rosen looks at the possible energy policy changes that could result from the spill . But we begin with senior White House correspondent Major Garrett in Theodore , Alabama , on the president 's day down south . @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @!MAJOR-GARRETT-FOX : President Obama , the political drag of the unrelenting BP oil spill gumming up his presidency , traveled for the first time to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Mr. Obama heard from the Coast Guard and put in a Chamber of Commerce plug for local beaches . @!BARACK-OBAMA-PRES : There are still a lot of opportunity for visitors to come down here . A lot of beaches that are not yet affected or will not be affected . @!GARRETT : The president 's lunch featured crab cakes and shrimp salad . Later , Mr. Obama flatly declared gulf seafood fit to eat . A bit ( INAUDIBLE ) snow-combed beach . Gulfport 's beaches are clean , but nearly empty . Beach umbrellas flutter over swabs of soft , white , deserted sand . Blocks away at this popular local hangout , patrons are few . Steve Platts , 50 , grew up here and before the spill ate seafood once a day . An Obama supporter , Platts said he 's off seafood for good . @!STEVE-PLATTS-GULF : As far is in my heart , I do n't want to fish or eat the fish anymore . I do n't trust anything coming out of the gulf . @!GARRETT : Platts says the oil slick when viewed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!PLATTS : Oil in the water ca n't be worked on in the way that Katrina -- you can send 100,000 people . It does n't work . It does n't fix it . @!GARRETT : In Orange Beach , Alabama , the oil is on shore . Swimming is forbidden . Clumps of oil ride the tide and break apart , some bigger than others . Giant sifters blade up the oil churning it to a slightly brownish white . Even after clean-up , the beach remains stained . But not everyone is boycotting . Lisa Coleman brought her two children and a nephew down from Greenville , Mississippi , and says most of what she 's come here for over the years remains . @!LISA-COLEMAN-GREE : Well , the beach is still wonderful . The kids can play in the sand just like they always do . You still feel the breeze . You still hear the ocean . @!GARRETT : In nearby Theodore , Alabama , Mr. Obama surveyed workers decontaminating oil slick boom at one of 16 boom staging areas laced across the gulf . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ an escrow fund available to pay economic and environmental claims . @!OBAMA- : So far , we 've had a constructive conversation . And my hope is that by the time the chairman and I meet on Wednesday , that we 've made sufficient progress that we can start actually seeing a structure that would be in place . @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!GARRETT : The president says he hopes to have an announcement Wednesday . Of course , that meeting at the White House with BP executives would occur the morning after his Oval Office address to the nation on the spill . Under administration pressure , BP said today it would increase its oil containment by 20,000 barrels a day . By the end of this month , by 40,000 barrels a day by mid-July -- Bret. @!BAIER : Major Garrett live in Alabama tonight . Major , thank you . We will have complete coverage of the president 's speech , plus analysis Tuesday night , 8:00 p.m . Eastern . The disaster has renewed the call by some to eliminate America 's dependence on oil , foreign and domestic @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ idea is. @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @!JAMES-ROSEN-FOX-N : Oil can cause horrific accidents and environmental damage and it often comes from places where the government is unfriendly to Americans or at best an uncertain ally . But in terms of its broad and amazing utility and its relative cheapness and accessibility , oil right now outperforms all other substances as an energy source , which is why it still powers 40 percent of American energy usage and is n't going away anytime soon . @!DIRK-DURBIN-@1D-IL : It 's naive to think we 'll end our dependence on oil overnight . It is just such a major part of our lives and our ( INAUDIBLE ) . But we are moving forward with new technologies and new attempts . Since the early 1970s , when America endured its first Arab oil embargo and long gas lines , the percentage of oil we import from other countries has doubled to more than half our total supply . At the same time , in the quarter century after 1980 , the U.S. reduced its energy intensity , the amount of energy we require to produce one @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!TOM-PRICE-@1D@2-G : We remain dependent on oil , primarily because of the federal government 's inaction . If we 're honest with ourselves over the last 30 to 40 years , we have not had a coherent energy policy through both Republican and Democrat administrations . @!JEFF-MERKLEY-@1D@2 : It affects our national security . @!ROSEN : Today brought yet another new plan for energy independence , one that set a timetable of two decades and sought to capitalize on the despair in the gulf . @!MERKLEY : We should not simply say , well , we 're not quite ready . We 're a few votes short . Let 's just wait . Because the challenges of the way we consume energy currently , the problems it 's creating are not waiting . @!ROSEN : Prior to the gulf disaster , the Department of Energy projected U.S. crude oil production would increase by 2034 , spurred by rising oil prices overseas and by advances in deep water drilling here at home . Which is why Gulf Coast lawmakers of both parties plead against a six-month federal moratorium on such @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ going to sit pat for six months and simply wait . Most are going to move to other parts of the world like West Africa . @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!ROSEN : Other countries are also struggling to wean themselves from oil . In 1973 , oil accounted for nearly half the world 's energy consumption . But by five years ago , it accounted for only 35 percent of world demand -- Bret. @!BAIER : James , thank you . So what can we expect from the president 's speech Tuesday night ? Senior political analyst Brit Hume has some thoughts . Good evening , Brit . @!BRIT-HUME-FOX-NEW : Hi , Bret. @!HUME : After another day spent on the Gulf Coast in a show of empathy for the victims of the oil spill , President Obama will be back on more comfortable ground tomorrow evening for his address to the nation from the Oval Office . He will reportedly use the address among other things to urge passage of the climate legislation known as cap-and-trade , which is intended to force major changes in the way Americans use energy . Here @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ his full attention in a way the oil spill seems only lately to have become . There is a sense about this president that the mundane , day-to- day duties of his office do not much interest him , that he feels he was elected to do great things and not grapple with grubby details . Confronted with the major recession , he left it to Congress to write the remedy in the form of a massive dose of deficit spending , much of it patently wasteful . He then signed that bill and quickly moved on to something more ambitious , the restructuring of the nation 's health care system . Here again , he left the details to Congress and the result was legislation so costly and unpopular that a large public majority favors its repeal and the administration has now mounted a major new campaign to sell the thing . There is nothing wrong with the president having a large vision . The question , though , about this president is whether he truly has a large vision of and for America , or simply a large @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ had an interesting comment in an interview with " Politico . " And here 's what he said . Quote , " In the same way that our view of our vulnerabilities and our foreign policy was shaped profoundly by 9/11 , I think this disaster is going to shape how we think about the environment and energy for many years to come . " What do you think about that ? @!HUME : Well , it sounds a little bit like another way of saying you should n't let a crisis go to waste , the comment his aide Rahm Emanuel famously made at the beginning of the administration . Obviously , he 's looking to pass some major legislation . In other words , he 's looking for an opportunity to do something large . The mere ultimate fixing and undoing the damage from the oil spill seems not to be great enough for this president . He 's looking for something truly big . This is how he thinks . This is how he thinks of himself . @!BAIER : OK , Brit . Thanks . @!HUME @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on tape displaying a questionable attitude toward a questioning student . And we 'll answer your questions about why Congress has not passed a budget this year . @!BAIER : In tonight 's America 's Election Headquarters , " the South Carolina politician who lost last week 's Democratic Senate primary to a virtually unknown candidate has filed a formal protest . Former state lawmaker Vic Rawl is alleging irregularities in the vote totals . Alvin Greene won the primary despite having raised no money , produced no ads and having no campaign Web site . The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services has extended its order that no claims be paid to providers until June 18th . That is in order to give the Senate time to delay a 21 percent cut in reimbursements which had been set to go into effect Tuesday . The FBI has released previously secret records about the late Senator Edward Kennedy . Most of the documents concern death threats and extortion attempts . Kennedy died last year at the age of 77 of brain cancer . Kennedy 's former Democratic colleagues in Congress @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Chief Washington correspondent Jim Angle tells us why and how that 's going over . @(AUDIO-GLITCH) @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @!JIM-ANGLE-FOX-NEW : Republicans have been railing against the failure of the House to pass a budget this year . Then Saturday night , President Obama sent a request for $50 billion more in deficit spending to help financially strapped states . And some Republicans erupted . @!JOHN-BOEHNER-@1R-O : The spending spree in Washington is continuing to run unabated . The American people are screaming at the top of their lungs " stop ! " @!ANGLE : Boehner agrees with the president the states may need help to keep from laying off teachers , firemen and policemen but argues spending should be cut elsewhere to free up the $50 billion . Majority Leader Steny Hoyer agrees and suggests taking it from unspent stimulus money rather than running up more debt . @!REP-STENY-HOYER-@1 : It 's accurate that there is spending fatigue not only on Capitol Hill but around the country . People are concerned about the debt level and we are as well . @!ANGLE : Minority Leader Boehner and others have been @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not yet passed a budget for the first time in more than 35 years . Boehner even evoked the chairman of the Federal Reserve who said last week the deficit is unsustainable. @!BOEHNER : Chairman Bernanke also expressed his concern that Congress has no exit strategy in place to get out of this mess . No strategy , no plan and not even a budget . @!ANGLE : Why have n't Democrats been able to pass a budget ? Because some want large deficit spending to help those hurt by the recession . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : They need services , unemployment , for example , help with paying for health insurance . And so it 's tough . It 's very difficult . @!ANGLE : But other Democrats fear running up even more debt when voters are already enraged by deficit spending . @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL : There are some Democrats quite wisely who think that if they pass a budget with two large numbers and increase the deficit , then they 're going to be voted out of office come November . @!ANGLE : The dilemma is apparent to the administration as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the White House does n't just identify spending cuts and send them to Congress . @!PETER-ORSZAG-BUDG : It just comes down to a question of whether it 's a fruitless exercise because you have very little probability of success in the current environment . @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL : And it 's especially remarkable because we have the House , the Senate , the presidency all with one party . They 're all under the control of the Democrats . @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!ANGLE : But never fear , the absence of a budget does n't keep Congress from spending . The money , your money , just keeps rolling out . Though we 're spending so much these days , 43 cents of every dollar spent is borrowed -- Bret. @!BAIER : Unreal . Jim , thank you . The lack of a budget in New York is leading to what could be that state 's first ever government shutdown Tuesday . Correspondent Laura Ingle tells us how it 's all come down to the next few hours . @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @!LAURA-INGLE-FOX-N : New York ( INAUDIBLE ) are nearly $9 billion short in making @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and Republicans have been unable to reach an agreement running a state through emergency measures while hashing out a deal . @!DAVID-PATERSON-@1D : They have never put a budget on my desk . And the state is running out of money . @!INGLE : Democratic Governor David Paterson says he has no choice but to take the drastic step of a governmental shutdown . @!PATERSON : The combination of the state running out of money and the emergency appropriations that have to be done ever week because there 's no budget compels me to get the savings . @!INGLE : The people in the Empire State would be impacted if the emergency extender bill does n't pass . State employees would go without pay . Unemployment offices would close , as well as state courts , parks and campgrounds , effects that are likely to be felt long after a compromise is reached . @!DAVID-BIRDSELL-BA : When we start thinking of other businesses , both for profit businesses as well as non-profit businesses that are dependent on state contract payments in order to stay in business , if they actually @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ long-term unemployment . @!INGLE : Democrats have a slim 32-30 majority in the Senate and were unable to get the votes for the extender bill because of one Democrat and unanimous Republican opposition . Until today , when Republicans ( INAUDIBLE ) agreed to back the bill . Senate Republican leader Dean Skelos released this statement a short while ago . " The failure to produce the votes to pass this latest budget extender is a failure of Democratic leadership by the Senate Democrats . Republicans will not let the Democrats shut down state government . " @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!INGLE : And since 2002 , five states including Pennsylvania , New Jersey and Tennessee have had partial government shutdowns . According to the latest report from the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities , right now , New York is not the worst offender . New Jersey has a $10.7 billion budget gap . Illinois , $13.5 billion , and California holds the number one spot with $19.1 billion . The New York State Senate is still in session at this hour with a vote expected on the extender bill by @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Yes , and we 'll keep an eye on it . Laura , thank you . Stocks were mixed today . The Dow lost 20 1/5 . The S&P 500 gave back nearly two . The Nasdaq added a third of a point . If you think thinks are bad now in the gulf , wait until you hear the latest problem brought on by the oil spill . And as the hunt for terrorists continues , we 'll tell you what the U.S. is finding in the mountains of Afghanistan . @!BAIER : In international news , Israel 's cabinet has approved an inquiry into last month 's deadly raid on a Gaza bound flotilla . It will include two foreign observers . Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas says the plan falls short of U.N . Security Council demands . Today , the European Union joined the Palestinians in calling for an end to Israel 's blockade of Gaza . An Uzbek leader says some 100,000 Uzbeks have massed at the Kyrgyzstan border with Uzbekistan following the latest ethnic violence there in decades . The official death toll now is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ stop the ethnic fighting which resumed last week in the south . The U.S. , the United Nations and Russia are working on humanitarian aid airlifts . The " Associated Press " is reporting the State Department is putting together a small army to protect diplomats in Iraq after U.S. troops leave at the end of 2011 . The state is asking the Pentagon for heavy military gear and support from private contractors . Today , Iraq 's parliament met for only a few minutes in a symbolic inaugural session . There is word today of hidden riches in Afghanistan that are no longer secret . National correspondent Steve Centanni tells us about an incredible fortune in a very hard-to-get place . @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @!STEVE-CENTANNI-FO : Towering mountains and wide-open spaces give Afghanistan a stark beauty , and they conceal what could be a treasure trove of valuable minerals . A Pentagon task force that 's helping connect the Afghan government with potential developers has for the first time put a price tag on this vast mineral wealth , just about $1 trillion . But all that copper , iron , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!PK-CROWLEY-STATE- : Turning to potential of Afghan 's , of Afghanistan 's mineral wealth into actual revenue will take years . And mineral extraction , you know , faces numerous but not insurmountable challenges . @!CENTANNI : One challenge is security . The Taliban and tribal warlords could vie for control of the mines in disputed areas . Another is corruption . Government officials could try to siphon off the profits . President Hamid Karzai , who has promised to clean up that corruption , says his country 's mineral wealth could be worth as much as $3 trillion . @!HAMID-KARZAI-AFGH : It 's exploited well . This is massive wealth , massive opportunity . @!CENTANNI : Lithium is among the most valuable minerals in Afghanistan . It 's in great demand for the batteries that power computers and other electronic devices . But some say there are too many unanswered questions about the profitability of mining lithium in Afghanistan . @!DENNIS-BRYAN-LITH : You know , is there a road nearby , or do you start from scratch ? And have they drilled it ? I doubt it . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Still , there is the prospect of major economic growth for a war-torn poverty stricken country . @!LT-COL-TONY-SHAFFE : When you look at the fact that the Afghan economy 's gross national product is just about $1 billion last year , that 's the official economy , there 's got to be a game changer and this potentially could be that game-changer. @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!CENTANNI : Right now , according to the U.S. Geological Survey , the only mining in Afghanistan is done with picks , shovels and wheelbarrows . A far cry from the massive industrial operations that would eventually be needed if Afghanistan is to realize its massive mineral potential -- Bret. @!BAIER : Steve Centanni live at the Pentagon tonight . Steve , thank you . Afghan President Hamid Karzai is trying to rally support in Kandahar for the upcoming NATO offensive against the Taliban there . Karzai , Sunday , met with tribal chiefs and religious leaders urging them to cooperate . But the real power in the region may not be with the president . Reporter Conor Powell tells us who 's really in charge . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ President Hamid Karzai 's image looms large . But behind closed doors , it 's the president 's brother that rules the region . Officially , Ahmed Wali Karzai is a member of the Kandahar Provincial Council but according to western officials , he is also the largest drug dealer in Afghanistan and is accused of overseeing a vast network of corruption that fuels the insurgency . @(on-camera) : Many Afghans here in Kandahar say they do n't support the Taliban but given the choice between them or the corrupt Afghan government , they would choose the Taliban. @(voice-over) : The U.S. military was supposed to launch a major operation in Kandahar this month . But it has been postponed because local Afghans ( INAUDIBLE ) . Officials do not blame Ahmed Wali Karzai directly . His strength as a powerbroker has been a major obstacle . Kandahar 's own governor reluctantly says power needs to be more disbursed if the Taliban is to be defeated . @!TOORYALAI-WESA-KA : Yes , powerbrokers are one of the -- is part of the puzzle . It 's part of the problem . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ aside , U.S. officials are forced to work with him and he is promising to turn over a new lease . @!AHMED-WALI-KARZAI , : That 's been in the past . Now it 's a new beginning . We are working together . @!POWELL : Privately , U.S. officials remain skeptical of the new Ahmed Wali Karzai and acknowledge collaborating with him is a massive gamble . But to blunt his influence , the U.S. is pouring millions of dollars into restructuring the police , courts and local councils , especially the lower district levels . @!WESA : We plan to restructure the district shores . We are trying to resurface some of the people , those who were left behind . @!POWELL : American officials insist success in Kandahar will not be decided on the battlefield but in government offices . But with powerbrokers like Ahmed Wali Karzai running the government , success may be tough to achieve . In Kandahar , Conor Powell , FOX News . @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!BAIER : Iran 's revolutionary guard says new United Nations sanctions will not stop the country 's nuclear program . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the nation has already shaped its defense capabilities against worse case scenarios . The administration has touted one particular cabinet member numerous times since the gulf oil disaster started . We 'll explain . And a congressman comes up with an embarrassing way to say no comment . @!BAIER : And now some fresh pickings from the " Political Grapevine . " North Carolina Democratic Congressman Bob Etheridge has apologized after the video of the Democrat 's confrontation with a student went viral . Etheridge was , well , visibly irked. @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Do you fully support the Obama agenda ? @!REP-BOB-ETHERIDGE , : Who are you ? Who are you ? I have a right to know who you are . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : We 're students . @(CROSSTALK) @!ETHERIDGE : So am I , who are you ? Who are you ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Please let go of my arm , sir . @!ETHERIDGE : Who are you ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Congressman -- @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Let go of me , please . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!BAIER : Etheridge said in a news conference today , " I apologize for my @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ who the students were . President Obama and White House officials frequently tout Energy Secretary Steven Chu 's credentials while working on the Gulf oil spill , saying they " just happen to have a Nobel prize-winning physicist on our staff . " Chu 's Nobel past has been mentioned ten times since the spill began . " The New York times " article describes an instance where the complexity of capping the oil well was as challenging to the Nobel Prize winner . Quote , " Chu wondered aloud why oil was still spewing from around the bottom . Engineers had to tell him that the leaks were expected . " Bloomberg Ed Chet is leaving journalism to join Natural Resources Defense Council and telling " Politico " the oil spill prompted his decision to resume doing what he called " The lord 's work in fighting climate change . " " Politico " noted the ease which reporters jumped between journalism and advocacy seems to be increasing and that will " likely reinforce notion that all journalists are biased and largely towards Democratic friendly organizations . " " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the revolving door . Reporter Jonathan Allen left to work for a Democratic congresswoman . Allen had said before returning to " Politico , " " I 'm hopeful I can advance the Democratic Party goals and obviously the congresswoman 's goals . " Our top story at the bottom of the hour , President Obama is back in the gulf region to survey the damage and talk about containment effort for the oil disaster . The president will address the nation Tuesday night . He meets with BP executives Wednesday . Residents of the Gulf States continue to criticize BP for its inability to stop the spill and the delay in processing claims for damages to businesses and livelihoods . Correspondent Steve Harrigan reports now there is another reason people are upset . @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @!STEVE-HARRIGAN-CN : BP clean-up crews came under scrutiny for the schedules , with some working 20 minutes each hour , resting the other 40 minutes . Now they 're coming under criticism for lax security screening procedures . On this resort island , the contractors are not being welcomed with open arms . @!DEAN-BLANCHARD-SH : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ murders , child molesters , all without running background checks on them . @!HARRIGAN : BP has 700 temporary clean-up workers on grand isle and thousands throughout the Gulf , scraping up tar balls and oil in 90- degree heat for $12 to $20 an hour . Many come from private subcontractors who require name , date of birth , and Social Security number for each hire . The data is then turned over to local law enforcement to ensure safety at cleanup sites . But so far , at least three workers have been arrested on outstanding warrants while on the job , for narcotics , assault and child molestation . Local law enforcement officers say the current system is a disaster waiting to happen . @!CRAIG-WEBRE-LAFOU : We 're liable to have a situation with a group of people turn into vigilante force , and then you have a huge wedge where it 's up against them . @!HARRIGAN : What is not clear is what percentage of the contractors are already convicts , currently on prison and on work release programs let out temporarily to clean oil @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on work release are participating in the cleanup , but they have no accurate figure as many private subcontractors are also using work release labor in the cleanup. @!SHELLY-LANDRY-GRA : They are not guarding them 24/7 . They are bringing them in our little town . And we 're having to watch each and every one of them . We do feel like we 're being outnumbered . @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!HARRIGAN : Bret , there is one store in town where the clean-up workers can cash their checks . They often use prison I.D . And of course , the state holds on to 40 percent of whatever the inmates earn . Bret ? @!BAIER : Steve Harrigan live in Grand Isle , Louisiana tonight . Steve , thank you . State police in Arkansas say they found a 20th body from last week 's campground flash flooding . They are continuing to search unsure if the body belongs to the last person thought to be missing . Flash flooding across Oklahoma City stranded morning commuters as up to three inches of rain per hour fell on parts of that city @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on to tree branches while a rescue crew headed her way . There are no reports of fatalities . We 'll talk about the president 's trip to the Gulf region and what he hopes to accomplish with the oval office address Tuesday night . The FOX all-stars join me when we come back . '

@@4081941 @!HANNITY : And tonight on our great , " Great American Panel , " he 's a former member of the cast of " Saturday Night Live . " Comedian Joe Piscopo is here . He is a Democratic strategist . He 's worked with New York Senator Chuck Schumer . Chris Hahn is back . And she is the former communications director for the Republican Congressional Committee . Karen Hanretty is back , as well . And first of all , let 's go to -- NBC , CBS , they 're not going to air this -- this ad that we just ran . You 've got this mosque being built at Ground Zero right in the location . We have a controversial imam behind it all . Your reaction ? @!JOE-PISCOPO-COMED : You 're getting right into it , are n't you there ? @!HANNITY : Yes , sir . @!PISCOPO : I 'll tell you what . The networks have all the right in the world not to air this thing , because that -- what that video that they did was indeed racist . It was race-baiting , and it was derogatory to the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ James Byrd ad in 2000 . They ran MoveOn.org 's ad. @!CHRIS-HAHN-DEMOCR : I want to say , the thing that bothered me about the ad and the only thing that really , really gripped me was in the end it said kill the mosque . I mean , can we say stop the mosque ? Kill the mosque ? @!PISCOPO : But the fact of the matter is that New York is missing the point here , because I talked -- I had the good opportunity to talk to a great friend , a detective in the NYPD . And he told me to this day , like today , people -- cops are dying from the residual toxic effects from World Trade Center . And if they build a mosque there you know what the police told me , the NYPD , just talking outside this building , just now , it 's like a trophy . It 's like a trophy for them . And it 's wrong . But New York , if I may , I 'm sorry ... @!HANNITY : So you 're @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I 've got to tell you , you do n't go -- we 're always in America , we always go , " We 're going to Iraq . " We always announce what we 're going to do . We 're always going to go , " Let 's kill this mosque . " No . It 's a historical landmark , and that 's what Mr. Bloomberg should rely on . @!HANNITY : But what 's bothering me , they 're making their decision , Karen , without any insight , research ... @!KAREN-HANRETTY-RE : Right . @!HANNITY : ... understanding of this imam who has made outrageous statements . @!HANRETTY : They do n't care about the research . They do n't care about the insight . This is a decision made purely on political correctness , a political correctness that I think has corrupted this administration 's foreign policy when it comes to we have to , you know , reach out to all the Muslim countries and make them feel good about themselves . And now we 're going to build a ... @!HAHN : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ York , something the city of New York is trying to do ? @!HANRETTY : You know what ? @!HAHN : The mayor of New York -- listen ... @!HANRETTY : It is all part of the same ... @!HAHN : I 'm a New Yorker. @!HANRETTY : It is all part of the same attitude of political correctness that is poisoning this country about radical Islam and the refusal just to admit what it is . And Bloomberg does n't want to look -- he does n't want to read and see what this imam has written and what he said and how destructive it is. @!HAHN : I think it 's -- I think it 's -- there 's a lack of sensitivity in putting that mosque in that location . I 'm a New Yorker . I was , you know , in New York on 9/11 . This is not , you know , something that , you know , goes with what that -- that site stands for . But that said , people do have a right to pray in this country , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they do n't have a right to pray . But the idea that you even look at it in terms of " I do n't think it 's very sensitive . " Has nothing to do with sensitivity . It is flat-out wrong . And people like Bloomberg should absolutely be chastised for not admitting how evil radical Islam is in this country and what they 're doing around the world . @!HANNITY : I think Karen has nailed this . Yes . @!PISCOPO : You 're absolutely right when you say who 's building this , and what is his background ? @!HANRETTY : And just -- we do n't want to be insensitive. @!HANNITY : What do you think of the idea we ban burqas in the United States ? What do you think ? For example , there 's a debate this New York about whether or not Muslim holidays would be put on the school calendar . Does America now have to -- it is wrong to assume that people will assimilate ? And is it bigotry to say , " Well , we 're not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? Is it -- are women sometimes , maybe not under Sharia law but within their own families , forced to wear burqas ? Is that a repression of women ? @!PISCOPO : I do n't know . I do n't know what France is talking about , man . I mean , if they want to wear it and express something , religious views , I could n't figure out what they -- they banned ... @!HANNITY : Well , hang on . If you live in Saudi Arabia and you do n't wear a burqa , you 're in trouble . @!PISCOPO : I know . @!HANNITY : If you 're in Saudi Arabia , you 're with a guy that you 're not related to , you 're in trouble . The morality police are there to stop you . You ca n't drive a car in Saudi Arabia under Sharia law . So you know , and then this controversial imam wants America to be more Sharia compliant . @!HAHN : You know , listen , I do n't think anyone wants to see women work @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't think we want to see women forced to do it . But there are women -- if there are women who are -- who want to do it , if they choose to do it , that 's their religious belief , then that 's ... @!HANNITY : What about -- what about -- what about our license and you - - can you cover your face when you get a picture for your license ? @!HANRETTY : No. @!HAHN : Absolutely not . @!HANRETTY : Of course not . You know really ... @!HANNITY : That came up in Orlando . @!HANRETTY : You know what makes me nervous about banning the burqa , though ? Is I always think it 's the same thing that makes me nervous about forms of censorship . If they 're going to ... @!HANNITY : We 've got to ... @!HANRETTY : You can censor the bad guys . @!HAHN : The slippery slope . @!HANRETTY : I 'm always afraid that eventually , they 're going to try to censor the Christians . @!HAHN : Yes . @!PISCOPO : " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " It 's a new reality show . @!HAHN : The Burqa. @!HANNITY : We 've got to take a break . @!HANNITY : When we come back , more with our great , great , " Great American Panel . " @!HANRETTY : How about , " Pleased to Meet the Burqa " ( ph ) ? @!HAHN : I guess ( ph ) . @!HANNITY : As we continue with our great , " Great American Panel . " All right . Are you ever going to run for office in New Jersey ? @!PISCOPO : I do n't know . Thinking about it . @!HANNITY : A colleague of Chuck Schumer's. @!PISCOPO : Well , yes . @!HAHN : You 're lucky . You 'd be very lucky . @!HANNITY : He 's telling me , trying to convince me in the break how conservative Chuck is , if only I 'd get to know him and sit down and break bread him . @!HAHN : You should . @!PISCOPO : Jersey is the best place in the universe , and I 'd love to run @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you 've got a good governor that knows how to balance a budget . @!PISCOPO : I saw you with Governor McConnell SIC last night . Everybody 's -- and now Governor McConnell SIC has a surplus in Virginia . But ... @!HANNITY : That 's right . @!PISCOPO : ... Mr. Hannity. @!HANNITY : Wait . Wait . @!PISCOPO : But they 're cutting education . That 's not right . @!HANNITY : Excuse me . Wait a minute . He did something that you never see in government . He went from spending -- he went from ... @!PISCOPO : What was the first thing he said ? What was the first thing he said ? Sean , what was the first thing he said when he sat down with you last night ? He said -- he said , " Well , unfortunately , we had to do some cuts we did n't want to do . " @!HANNITY : So what ? Piscopo ... @!PISCOPO : You 're cutting your heart ( ph ) in teachers and firefighters at least . That 's the only argument @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and I have no problem with it . And I 'll tell you what . In California ... @!PISCOPO : Because you 're not a teacher , Karen . @!HANRETTY : Yes . That 's right , I 'm not a teacher . @!HANNITY : She 's not a member of the teachers union . @!HANRETTY : The teachers union , which is ( UNINTELLIGIBLE ) education in America . @!HAHN : Everybody wants cuts until it 's their -- everybody wants cuts until it 's their program that 's cut . @!HANNITY : I say this . Why does n't America do exactly what they 're doing in Virginia ? Why do n't we go back to 2006 and say , " That 's our limit . That 's all we 're spending ? " @!HANRETTY : In California , they 're half of ... @!HAHN : How much stimulus money did it take to balance the budget ? The stimulus money that every conservative in this country was against . A lot of it . So let 's not -- let 's not give him all the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you expect him to not take the money . @!HAHN : No , I expect -- that 's what it 's there for . @!HANNITY : And then the citizens of his state have to pay the money . He 's just getting some back . @!PISCOPO : When are we going to draw on the resources of the United States of America ? When are we going to create jobs ? This is what everybody 's waiting for , jobs . And this administration ... @!HANNITY : When we get a new president . You want to know when ? @!PISCOPO : But also from the governors , from Virginia and the New Jersey -- create jobs . Create manufacturing . @!HANRETTY : You know what ? @!HANNITY : We 're not going to get jobs until we cut taxes and bureaucracy and regulation -- Karen . @!HANRETTY : Let 's talk about manufacturing . You know , manufacturing unemployment , if you just look at the manufacturing industry , unemployment in that industry is hovering around 30 percent . And you are not going to see manufacturing in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ stability . You 've got to cut back on these regulations . I do n't know what on earth is taking this president so long to pass a couple of free trade agreements . Even if you -- even if a bank was going to lend you money and you were going to build something , who are you going to sell it to ? @!HANNITY : I brought this up with Lou Dobbs earlier tonight . So the president goes to Holland , Michigan , today . He goes to this company . They get $151 million to create 300 jobs . They 're building car -- electric car batteries . @!HANRETTY : Electric car batteries . I love this story . @!HANNITY : So 151 , 300 jobs ; $500,000 a job , Piscopo ! @!HAHN : It 's a brand-new industry that needs -- needs some seed money . We need better batteries for electric cars in this country . So we can reduce our dependence on foreign oil . @!HANNITY : The difference between you and me is I believe -- did Henry Ford need @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the government when he started Ford . There was a lot -- there was a lot less competition when Henry Ford was around . @!HANNITY : Stop spending our money . These guys spend money like it 's water . Unless you are Colonel Nadler ( ph ) and getting in a cab . @!HANRETTY : And they do n't spend it -- they do n't spend it to create real jobs . @!HANNITY : Exactly . @!HANRETTY : When you first said the stimulus budget went to transportation , I thought everywhere we heard Obama is doing one precedent ( ph ) after another . We 're going to have all these shovel-ready transportation jobs . Where are they ? @!HAHN : This economy -- when the president took office this economy was bleeding 700,000 jobs a month . @!HANNITY : Stop . @!HAHN : The last two months , we 've added 83,000 private sector jobs . @!HANNITY : Eight three thousand ? @!HAHN : It 's a start . You 've got to start somewhere . @!HANNITY : Excuse me. @!HANNITY : This president lost four @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ He spent a fortune and robbed our kids and grandkids blind . @!HANRETTY : And he 's not created jobs . @!HANNITY : Piscopo , save -- save the panel tonight . @!PISCOPO : I 'm just enjoying this , this anarchy here on the set . And I love your pearls , Karen . I think they 're great . @!HANNITY : Are you hitting on her ? What 's that ? @!PISCOPO : She 's a Republican . @!HANNITY : This is not " Saturday Night Live . " What do you think this is ? @!PISCOPO : Thank you very much . I just think in New Jersey it 's great that none of you have to , if you 're a police officer ... @!HANNITY : Do you like Christie ? @!HANRETTY : I love him . @!PISCOPO : As a person or as ... @!HANNITY : I did n't ask you as a person . @!PISCOPO : He 's a good guy . @!HANNITY : Do you like his policies ? @!PISCOPO : You 've got -- what kills me about what 's happening @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on the resources of the state and of the people . @!HANNITY : I have an idea . If any of us run into economic trouble , what are we going to do ? Pull our belt tight . How about the government goes back to 2006 spending levels and stays there ? What would be so bad about that ? Live within our means . @!PISCOPO : How about getting jobs for the Americans ? Why ca n't ... @!HANNITY : Why do you think the jobs have to come from the government ? Why do n't you believe in capitalism , freedom , liberty , free market ? @!HAHN : When the market fails , somebody 's got to step in. @!HANNITY : The market has not failed , for crying out loud ! We do n't let it work . @!PISCOPO : You would think he 's Italian . @!HAHN : I know . @!HANRETTY : Tell you what . If you took New Jersey -- if you took New Jersey 's state regulations to the level of Virginia , I 'll bet you 'd have much @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you have right now . @!PISCOPO : And now in New Jersey if you 're a police officer you have to learn the language of whoever you 're pulling over . @!HAHN : And that should create some jobs . We 're all happy . @!PISCOPO : I do n't think you should have to learn the language . I think you should learn dialect . I think you should just learn the dialect of the person you 're pulling over . @!HANNITY : And what 's the New Jersey dialect ? @!PISCOPO : No , I mean ... @!HAHN : You should n't make fun of the New Jersey dialect . My mother made fun of New Jersey dialect once . Once . @!HANNITY : All right . I like everybody but Piscopo on the panel . That is all the ... @!HANNITY : I 'm kidding . That 's all the time we have left . As always , thank you for being with us . Let not your heart be troubled . The news continues . Greta is standing by to go " On the Record @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ see you back here tomorrow night . Greta , take it away . '

@@4082041 Pakistan flooding has left large areas of the country in dire need of aid . Persuasive technology is intended to cause people to change their behaviour . Ella pill has been approved by the FDA . In California , police are investigating a crash that killed eight spectators in an off-road race in San Bernardino county . President Obama , the first lady , and their youngest daughter , Sasha , returned to Washington this afternoon after a weekend visit to the gulf to help boost tourism there . @!BRIANNA-KEILAR-CN : Expensive weight loss surgery for state employees with state taxpayers footing the bill . Find out why this controversial program got the green light . And guilt gadgets . They are high-tech devices that prod you to do the right thing from losing weight to conserving energy . We will tell you how they work in today 's tech time . And then at 5:00 p.m . Eastern , traveling the world alone . Plenty of people are doing it . Find out what they are experiencing that the rest of us are not . I 'm Brianna Keilar , in today for Fredricka Whitfield . And an @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ dessert near San Bernardino eight people were killed when one of the race trucks crashed into the crowd . Several other people were sent to the hospital . You can actually see the trucks in this video , including the white truck that crashed . Witnesses say what happened is the driver lost control going over a jump . And just rolled into the spectators . @ ! UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : When a car comes out of control , the first instinct is to run . And then get out of the way of the vehicle . And just in our racing , it is unfortunate . You know , it is an open area that we do get close to the course . But it is very rare that since situations like this , you know , happen . @!KEILAR : Off-road racing is a whole lot different from more traditional racing . The course is rough . The drivers have to navigate hills and quick turns . And the spectators are n't behind massive steel fences . Our Josh Levs giving us a look here at the track @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ take a look at the map behind me . I want to show you something here . I want you all to see where this is taking place in the United States . So let 's zoom right in . We are going to California here . It is in this section . Where we are going to go as we zoom in is east of L.A. , east of San Bernardino . We are going to go down to have sort of a parallel view where this takes place , where this race is . Soggy Dry Lake , that area is 50 miles long and it goes around four times . Now , what we are hearing about this area , the " L.A. Times " described this as a Mecca for off-road racing and you can see from the terrain why it would be used for off road racing . Why it is so popular for that . There are lots of races that take place in this area throughout the year . All right . Let 's get to some of that video . I 'm @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are written rules . You can see them for yourself on the web site , nbrracing.com . And look at what some of them say . First of all , it says , " do not spectate within 100 feet of the course . " Looking at what we are seeing here , it is clear that these people are way , way within that . Now , exactly how many feet are considered the course , we do n't know for sure . But it does clearly seem any one of them could jump out , launched at the car and touch it as it is going by . It also say " spectate only on pit side , of course . " Now , when we are looking at , we are seeing people on two sides . Does this violate the rule about the pit side ? ( INAUDIBLE ) about that . It says " Do not stand or drive on the course . " Well , looks like some folks may be standing on the course at least at some point during it . " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ turn " is another one of the rules . Another rule I will tell you here , " do park with your lights on and facing oncoming race vehicles . " Just a couple of the many rules there . Now , also I will tell you there are a lot of rules surrounding the vehicles that do this trip . We talked about what kinds of cages have and what kinds of nets they need to have . Safety precautions , certain fire extinguishers on board , safety harnesses . This five-point safety harnesses , ca n't be any older than three years from the date of the present race . There are a lot of rules surrounding this . So this is not the kind of thing that you are hear that sort of happens or getting people to decide to do it and do it . There is an organization here and they do operate . So what we have right now are a lot of questions about how something like this happens , about who is it up to enforce certain rules . Are they supposed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ people who show up to know what these rules are ? And follow them and also is there anyone who checks the entire length of the course . @!KEILAR : And as Josh pointed out right there , that video from the race really shows just how close the crowd was there . So coming up later this hour , we will be talking to one car expert about the dangers of the sport and then in our 5:00 hour , we will talk to guy who was there in the crowd shooting that dramatic video . General David Petraeus had more to say today about the deadline to start pulling troops out of Afghanistan . The new commander of U.S. forces in Afghanistan discussed the president 's withdrawal date on NBC 's " Meet the Press . " GEN . DAVID @!PETRAEUS , COMMANDER , U.S. FORCES AFGHANISTAN : That 's what 's July 2011 really connotes . It is to all the participants , those in Kabul , some of us in uniform , and , again , our civilian counterparts that we have to get on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ nine years or so . That there is understandable concern and in some cases frustration and that , therefore , we have got to really put our shoulders to the wheel and show during the course of this year that progress can be achieved and , again , one manifestation of that is out there that you have this date . @!KEILAR : Let 's bring in CNN 'S Pentagon correspondent Chris Lawrence now . Chris , when we listen to General Petraeus remarks today , are we hearing anything new ? Does anything really stick out to you ? @!CHRIS-LAWRENCE-CN : Well , the thing that jumped out to me was that he basically said look , the first eight years of this war , we had it all wrong . We did n't have enough troops . We did n't have the right people in certain positions . We did n't even have the right sort of measurements as to what we really need to do . We did n't have a good civilian component to help build up the Afghan government . What he is saying @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ has there begun to be some level of progress . A senior defense official told me that they would like more time , that they think some of these plans can work but that with the late start , they are going to need more time . Again , you talked about that date . This time next year is President Obama 's date to start taking some troops out of Afghanistan . The big push will be for General Petraeus to show some sort of benchmark , some sort of progress , you know , in the next six months to a year to sort of say , " look , this is working and that we can slow down this withdrawal . " There is a big difference between this time next year and taking out , say , 3,000 troops versus withdrawing say 10,000 to 15,000 troops . @!KEILAR : And - Chris the big part of the plan here for General Petraeus is to really root out the Taliban but it just makes you wonder because , you know , so many Afghans not only do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it is actually kind of part of their family and certainly much more so than U.S. troops or allied forces . @!LAWRENCE : That 's right . A big part of this plan is trying to reintegrate parts of the Taliban . Now , General Petraeus made a point to say , you know , this does n't mean that Taliban leader Mullah Omar is going to be marching down main street and putting his hand on the Constitution and swearing allegiance to Hamid Karzai 's government . But they think some of those lower-level fighters , there is a possibility to reconcile with them and he said that could be a key to what happens going forward . @ ! PETRAEUS : The $5 a day Taliban are certainly candidates for reintegration into Afghan society and that is actually starting to happen a bit more over time . And we are still awaiting the fairly imminent announcement , we think , of the actual integration and reconciliation of policy . @!LAWRENCE : What they have not outlined really is specifics . Really hard lined specifics as to what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Other than saying lay down your arms , swear allegiance to the government and that sort of thing . But General Petraeus said they have begun to start to pick some up chatter among Taliban forces , wondering where their senior leadership is , that their senior leadership does n't join them in the battle , that they simply , you know , make cell phone calls from Pakistan . And General Petraeus does have a track record . Remember back in Iraq , he was able to find ways to sort of disrupt the Iraqi insurgency by getting some of those groups to break off . @!KEILAR : Really interesting to see if that 's going to work here . Always good to see you , Chris . Chris Lawrence , our Pentagon correspondent therein D.C. and let 's move now to Pakistan where entire villages have been reduced to giant lakes . Nearly 1,400 people are dead . United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon says that an estimated 20 million flood victims are in need of food , clean drinking water , medicine , and shelter and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the U.N .. He 's also appealing for a whole lot more . @ ! BAN-KI-MOON-U.N-S : We need the strong and urgent media support from the international community . The United Nations has been working around the clock . Together with the government and international donors and NGOs and we are very much grateful for those generous support . I 'm sure that with such the courage and resilience and vibrancy over Pakistan , if they are supported by the international community , then they can overcome this . @!KEILAR : Now , if you would like to help flood victims in Pakistan , just visit our impact your world page . That is at cnn.com/impact . And in China , it is a national day of mourning . More than 1,200 people killed in mud slides triggered by this summer 's torrential rains . Rescuers are racing to find 38 people feared buried in landslides yesterday in southwestern China . Hundreds more are missing in villages to the northwest . The president is clarifying comments that he made about building an Islamic center and mosque near Ground @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!KEILAR : Will this be the week that the ruptured BP oil well is killed once and for all ? Our man on the gulf coast says everyone is in a wait-and-see mode . @!REYNOLDS-WOLF-AMS : I 'm Reynolds Wolf coming to you from Gulf Shores , Alabama , where conditions are just beautiful today . The beaches are wide open and the water is just wonderful . In fact , take a look at this video and you can see the families and kids out there enjoying just everything nature has to offer . It is just beautiful out there . Now , just a few days ago there was some oil that was actually washing up on shore due to the remnants of tropical depression five , bringing in some of the heavier surf and of course , lifted up some of that oil off the bottom . What 's interesting about tropical depression five is remnants of that are hovering over parts of South Alabama and there is a chance , about a 20 percent possibility , that may actually pull back over the Gulf of Mexico @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ terms of digging the relief wells and the bottom kill procedure with the well . Now , the latest on that retired Coast Guard Admiral Thad Allen mentioned in a teleconference yesterday that is the long-term plan , to finish drilling the relief well , to finish with the bottom kill . But before they get to that point , they are going to conduct some pressure reading tests inside the well . Those tasks end up being favorable and they 'll push forward with the procedure of the bottom kill . However , that could take all the way into next week . Of course , tropical depression five 5 actually strengthens and reforms that could cause a few more delays . Another big measure along the coast is going to be pulling in more of the boom . We spoke with some BP workers and said that is going to be the plan . Not just on parts of Florida , Alabama , Mississippi , but even Louisiana . Pulling in more of that boom . Reynolds Wolf , CNN , Gulf Shores , Alabama . @!KEILAR : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ daughter , Sasha returned to Washington this afternoon after a weekend visit to the gulf to help boost tourism there . This morning they toured the waters off Panama City Beach . Mr. Obama even took the plunge . This photo coming to us from the While House . He and Sasha there swimming in the bay , directly off of the gulf . He was kept out of the open ocean because of concerns over rip tides and his security . President Obama is revisiting his comments that he made about a proposal to build an Islamic center and a mosque near Ground Zero . On Friday , the president defended the plan saying Muslims have the right to practice their religion and build a place of worship . But yesterday the president told CNN 's Ed Henry that in defending the right of developers to proceed with the proposal , he was not commenting on the wisdom of the project . This controversy was a hot topic on the Sunday morning talk shows , as you can believe . And on " CNN 's State of the Union @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sides of this debate . @ ! REP-PETER-KING-@1R : I do agree . The Muslims have - everyone else says , the right to practice their religion and they have the right to construct a mosque at Ground Zero if they wish . What I 'm saying no is they should listen to the public - and they should listen to the deep wounds and anguish that this is causing to so many good people . The if the imam and the Muslim leadership in that community is so intent on building bridges then they should voluntarily move the mosque away from Ground Zero and move it to uptown or somewhere else , but move it away from that area . The same as the Pope directed the Carmelite nuns to move a convent away from Auschwitz . This is such a raw wound and they 're just pouring salts into it . That 's my point . I think the president , by the way , is trying to have it both ways . Because I do n't know of anyone who is saying that Muslims do not have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ go responsibilities and that 's the part the president did n't comment on . @!REP-JERROLD-NADLER : The government has no right and no business to comment one way or the other on whether a church or a synagogue or a mosque should be anywhere so long as they meet the legal requirements . And frankly , if government tried in any way , if the Landmarks Commission had ruled - and marked that building for any - for reasons opposing the mosque , not for real landmark reasons , the courts would have said it . There is no way for government to block this . @!KEILAR : A new CNN opinion research poll finds 68 percent of Americans oppose building the Islamic center and mosque at that site . Tricky words that we just ca n't seem to say correctly . Maybe you have marveled at a Hermes scarf , perhaps . It is not called that . We are going to find out which other words mess us up the most often next in the chat room . @!KEILAR : Time to check our top stories . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ eight spectators in an off-road race in San Bernardino county . This was a truck barreling into the crowd that was gathered along the course there . Six people died at the scene . Two others died later at the hospital . Several more were injured . And veteran actress Zsa Zsa Gabor is apparently in pretty bad shape . Her publicist says she asked her husband to call a priest to her hospital bedside . The 93-year-old Hungarian-born actress went back into the hospital Friday to have a blood clot removed . She has been hospitalized most of the past month recovering from hip replacement surgery . Today , a new federal ban takes effect which prevents banks from charging you a surprise overdraft fees on debit or ATM cards . Banks can no longer enroll you for overdraft protection without getting your permission first . Opting out means your card will be declined if you do n't have enough money in your account . That can be kind of embarrassing , I suppose . You are joining us now in the chat room . We have some really @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!JACQUI-JERAS-AMS- : We do . We have a diverse list today . @!KEILAR : Very diverse . @!JERAS : Yes . @!KEILAR : And the first one is human dominoes . @!JERAS : I know . @!KEILAR : In China . @!JERAS : 10,000 people . Can you imagine ? @!KEILAR : Yes . More than 10,000 people . It 's actually spelling , I guess , the name of the city where they are at . @!JERAS : Yes . Ordos , O-R-D-O-S , is what they are spelling it . And they did it in Chinese as well as - @!KEILAR : English . @!JERAS : English . @!KEILAR : It took an hour . @!JERAS : An hour . @!KEILAR : So you are leaning there for an hour with someone 's like shoe in your side . I do n't know about that . So dedicated people . And in the end , Guinness record . So , yey for them . @!JERAS : A little too close for comfort for me. @!KEILAR : Yes , one hour of patience will get that . @!JERAS : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the next person . @!KEILAR : I think uncomfortable would be the word . @!JERAS : There you do . @!KEILAR : OK . So this next one is - I really like this one . You know , we have a really hard time with these words . There is a web site that lists words that people mispronounce without realizing it . @!JERAS : Yes . @!KEILAR : You want me to try ? I will do it and then you see . @!JERAS : OK . You will embarrass me on some of these . @!KEILAR : I 'll admit - @!JERAS : They would n't let me look ahead of time . @!KEILAR : OK. @!JERAS : ( INAUDIBLE ) spontaneous . @!KEILAR : Here 's the word . How do you say that ? @!JERAS : Yes . This is that berry that 's supposed to make you lose weight . That I can tell you . I heard it pronounced - and it is not at all the way it looks . @!KEILAR : Acai. @!JERAS : I 'm not going to go there @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!KEILAR : OK . I have it right here . @!JERAS : Acai . Ah-sah-ee. @!KEILAR : Ah-sah-ee . There you go . @!JERAS : We 're close . @!KEILAR : All right . We both were n't so good at that one . @!OK-And-our-next-on# @!JERAS : I know this one . @!KEILAR : Chee-phot-lay . But a lot , even my producer here , Katie Baritone ( ph ) , not to fully call out but it was calling it chip-ol-te , which everyone does , right ? And it 's chee-poht-lay. @!JERAS : Well , I think now that they have restaurant out - @!KEILAR : Yes . @!JERAS : More people know how to pronounce that word . @!KEILAR : Yes , I agree . I agree . All right . And so our next one is - you know , we use this all the time , right ? @!JERAS : Right . @!KEILAR : It is that little star on the sentence . @!JERAS : Yes , but nobody writes this word . @!KEILAR : Not really . It is phonetic . @!JERAS : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : OK . They call it ass-ter-isk. @!JERAS : Yes , instead of an ik. @!KEILAR : But it 's an ass-ter-isk . It is a risk at the end . You got to remember that . Got to remember that . OK . And then the fourth one , I totally get this one wrong . @!JERAS : Yes . @!KEILAR : I think - it is fun to say gyro . And I like it . You know , it 's a Mediterranean dish with the lamb . @!JERAS : Right . It 's like the pita and the cucumber . @!KEILAR : Delicious . @!JERAS : Red onions . @!KEILAR : Totally wrong . @!JERAS : I know how to pronounce it , thanks to my Uncle George at a very young age . @!KEILAR : Do school us . Yeer-oh . Here we go . @!JERAS : Yeer-oh . And I think you are even supposed to have that a little bit of a roll on the " r " for that one . @!KEILAR : Say it one more time . @!JERAS : Yeer-oh. @!KEILAR @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . I say this one wrong . I think - I say express-o instead of espresso. @!KEILAR : I think that 's OK because an express-o is just a really fast espresso. @!JERAS : Perhaps . @!KEILAR : That you 're getting it fast . @!JERAS : You know , Americans tend to say this - I do n't mean to offend anybody but Americans tend to be lazy with their English . And we tend to drop certain syllables so that it 's easier to say . And I would say , we are used to saying express , so we say expresso. @!KEILAR : Yes . @!JERAS : Or for asterisk , it 's easy using that extra consonant. @!KEILAR : But we basically - we co-opted this word . So we need to get with it and we need to start pronouncing it right . @!JERAS : We do . Absolutely . Well , there 's like 12 words apparently that everybody and their mother - just mispronounced. @!KEILAR : Sure . @!JERAS : That 's just a sample . @!KEILAR : Definitely . OK . And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Rod Stewart , he is 65 and his wife is expecting . @!JERAS : Yes . He 's going to be 66 before the baby is born . @!KEILAR : Oh , my goodness . So he has -- what , five kids from previous relationships . @!JERAS : He got seven . @!KEILAR : One from his current wife and this will be the seventh . @!JERAS : Yes . And I think that he has one that was adopted when he was very , very young as well . I think it 's actually eight total . That 's a lot of children ( INAUDIBLE ) a lot of people out there - @!KEILAR : A lot of people think he 's sexy . @!JERAS : That 's sexy . @!KEILAR : They want his body . @!JERAS : I tried to get Brianna to sing that and dance for us today but - @!KEILAR : She was going to pay me to sing and dance . And I said no . Later . Off camera . @!JERAS : We were all disappointed for you . You should @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 'm just saying . But it creates , you know , creates the question , a lot of people are asking , how old is too old to be having children ? @!KEILAR : Sure . @!JERAS : I mean , Penny is 39 years old - @!KEILAR : That 's not too old for a lot of women . @!JERAS : He 's 65 . How long is he going to be around for that child ? @!KEILAR : We 'll see and maybe we 'll do the dance during the commercial break . We will be right back . @!JERAS : I 'll get my iPhone. @!KEILAR : Investigators are at the scene after deadly race accident in a remote part of South Carolina . Authorities say eight people were killed when an off-road race truck plowed into a crowd . Several other people were injured . And earlier I talked to Larry Webster . He 's the automotive editor for " Popular Mechanics . " He 's driven in these types of races before . So I asked him how this could have happened and what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ! LARRY-WEBSTER-AUT : Well , it is really tragedy . It is awful . You know , I was looking at the racing organization 's web site and they cautioned spectators to stay at least 100 feet from the racing surface . But of course , the spectators are there for a thrill . And it is just exciting to be close to these trucks speeding by . So when something happens , a truck rolled off course , there 's a lot of people that unfortunately are there . @!KEILAR : I 'm a racing fan and NASCAR fan , as it is . When you tell people that you are a racing fan or I guess , you a background in racing , they say , you know , what 's the point ? @!WEBSTER : Yes . @!KEILAR : You just like to see cars go fast and you like to see them crash . But there is , of course , a considerable amount of skill involved here . What is the big deal about this sport ? What 's the allure here ? @!WEBSTER @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . You are controlling a very fast , powerful machine over unpredictable rough terrain . And that in itself and there 's a real challenge to that . This race is 200 miles . It is at night . So it is tricky . There 's a lot to it . And it 's one of those things , once you are in the seat and you experience it , I think it is one of those firsthand things that people can really get a sense of only by doing it . @!KEILAR : But you would n't really say , Larry . that this a mainstream sport , right ? @!WEBSTER : No . This is pretty much an amateur series and this is guys doing it on the weekends for fun and things like that and spectators are there . It 's on a weekend . It 's something different to do . A lot of these races , you watch them on TV is one thing . But once you are there live , for the NASCAR race , I mean , you can hear it and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ It is really exciting . It is quite a thrilling experience . @!KEILAR : So is there sort of a governing body here ? Someone that puts out official rules and which would include guidelines for spectators ? Is there someone that does that or is this really informal ? @!WEBSTER : Yes , no , there is . It is called the Mojave Desert Racing Organization . And they host a series every year , I do n't know -- eight , ten races , and set the rules for spectating , for driving . They set up the event and things like that . This is one of those very few open races are left in the world . And it is just very difficult to control the spectators . You can give all the warnings you want . At the end of the day they are out there and on their own . And they do what they want . @!KEILAR : Coming up next hour , we will talk to one of the spectators who was there at the race and captured some of that dramatic @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the weekend shooting spree in Buffalo , New York . They dropped the charges against him , 25- year-old Keith Johnson . But they are keeping him locked up due to unrelated parole violations . Four people were killed , four others wounded in Saturday 's shooting outside of a downtown restaurant . Pleas for help for flood-stricken Pakistan . The United Nations secretary general saw the devastation for himself today and immediately allocated another $10 million in emergency aid from the U.N . He 's also urging the international community to step up its effort to help . He says an estimated 20 million people are in desperate need of food , clean drinking water , and medicine , and shelter . And close to 1400 people are dead , entire villages transformed into lakes there . CNN 's Sara Sidner says many of those rescued are worried just about tomorrow . @!SARA-SIDNER-CNN-C : We are here inside what 's normally a high school . But here in the town of Sukkur , this has been turned into a makeshift clinic where hundreds of thousands of people are trying @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ homes or their homes are damaged and they can not stay there . People have brought lots of things . Look back over here , you will see livestock , you see a chicken there . They brought whatever it is that is left they feel that can help them survive all of this . Word over here , one of the big concerns here is the health of the people . What they are going to do . There are a lot of problems with children health in particular . They have six children and you will notice their little girl here , she 's only 11 /2 and notice how thin she is . She was already sick before this flood . And now she 's having diarrhea , problems that really endanger her life . The family is very concerned . The mother is pregnant and so these are some of the things that are happening to families right now while the flooding has already destroyed their homes and starting to subside a bit . The real concern now is the health of the people that are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Sukkur. @!KEILAR : Can your computer make you a better person ? We will try to find out during tech time ahead . @!KEILAR : What is that ? You might wonder , a cop car chasing a zebra yes . That 's not a horse that you see on the street there in Carmachael County , California . That , yes , is a zebra . Two of them got loose yesterday evening as you can imagine , the startled onlookers and motorists . One actually ended up in a swimming pool at an apartment complex where it was rescued . The other one is still on the loose . Apparently they got away there from owners who were actually keeping them as pets . A break from the heat for parts of the U.S. Jacqui Jeras is tracking all of the weekend weather for us . Jacqui that zebra managed to get a break from the heat . JACQUI @!JERAS , CNN METEOROLOGIST : Yes , from the swimming pool . Good thing to take some advice after , right . Yes . If you are looking for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ got some heat relief . How about this ? Look at the temperatures , this feels-like temperature , the heat index that 's out there . And , man , it is feeling good across some parts of the Midwest . We have seen major breaks in the heat . We are going to watch it slowly sink southward over the next couple of days . Now it is not going to be dramatic for everybody . But I think at this point we are going to take what you can get . Right ? Courtesy of a cold front here that 's kind of draped across the Great Lakes down into parts of Arkansas and into Oklahoma . Ahead of it , we are getting some strong thunderstorms . Some of which could become severe this afternoon and this evening . Watch out for some damaging winds potentially and some hail with this as well . That cold front is trying to make some progress and we have a real difference in temperatures and difference in humidity and a lot fewer states today under the heat advisories . As @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ even less of those . How many degrees are you going to be dropping ? As much as 15 , 16 degrees for some of you . Put together a map to compare what your high temperature was on Friday and compare it with what we are forecasting for Monday . You will be dropping down 16 degrees in Kansas City , 12 in Indianapolis , 8 in Cincinnati , 6 in Little Rock . Look at that . 10 degrees cooler than you were in Oklahoma City . So it is going to help a lot . We also got some heat today across parts of the west . Feeling like the triple digits for you in Seattle and Portland . And we are also watching the tropics . Believe it or no . Brianna remember TV number 5 ? @!KEILAR : I do . @!JERAS : Trying to make a comeback . It is diving southward towards the Gulf of Mexico . And we can see some developments with this one , I will have more details on this coming up in about a half hour . @!KEILAR @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they are trying to kill this -- @!JERAS : Relief well operations , it certainly could be impacting that . @!KEILAR : Sure , once and for all they want to get that done . OK . Jacqui , we will check back in with you in a second . Let 's check your top stories right now . A Massachusetts man in prison for alleged attacks tied to the popular website Craig 's List . He was found dead in his prison cell . Police believe that he committed suicide . Philip Markoff was charged in the shooting death of a woman that he had allegedly met on Craig 's List . And U.S. marshals are once again focusing on Montana and the Canadian border in their search for a fugitive inmate from Arizona . John McCluskey was one of three inmates who escaped from prison about two weeks ago with the help of his fiance . The other two were recaptured . The warden and chief of security from that private prison have resigned . The first family wrapped up their Gulf Coast vacation with a boat ride @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and his daughter Sasha took a dip in the water . You can see from that photo from the White House , this trip was intended to boost tourism and renew confidence in the Gulf Coast in the wake of the Gulf oil disaster . You know most of us want to do the right thing . Sometimes we need to be a little nagged , pushed in the right direction ; we need some nagging to get there . That used to be the job of your mom or your dad , maybe your husband or your wife . Now you can rely on your computer for this , too . B.J. Fogg is the director of the Persuasive Technology Lab at Stanford University and he is here to talk about these different high-tech guilt gadgets that could help you change your ways for the better . So , B.J. , we are going go through some of these . To start off , just explain what is a Persuasive Technology ? B.J. @!FOGG , STANFORD UNIVERSITY : Persuasive Technology is some type of computer , whether it is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ video game designed to change your behavior to influence you . @!KEILAR : And one of the first ones , this one is pretty interesting , it is called o-power . It kind of puts a new spin on keeping up with the Jones 's . What 's this do ? @!FIGG : O-power is a system that was rolled out to 30 utility companies . What it does is it sends to each home a report of what their energy use was for the month and it compares them to the average of their neighbor . They can see they are using 20 percent more . It might put some pressure on them to reduce their energy use . @!KEILAR : That 's certainly - I mean , you sort of put some competition into this . And it makes it more fun . I know this is what a lot of people do when they are running and they keep track of their stats through technology . They can compete with their friends . So that kind of brings us to the next one here . Imoveyou.com . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , I mean you are chuckling just thinking about it . What is this about ? @!FOGG : Fun , definitely , yes . Imoveyou is a way to challenge a friend to some physical activity . It can be something serious like if you run two miles I will swim for 20 minutes . It can be kind of lightweight and fun . A lot of what 's going on the site is lightweight and fun . Such as if you dance to three Michael Jackson songs , I will do 20 somersaults in the front yard . You post that and a friend gets challenged and according to the company representatives about 70 percent of those challenges get fulfilled . It is that social challenge and that social support , getting people to be more active . @!KEILAR : Something else to try to get people to be healthier . At least stick to their regimen is something called glowcaps . I never heard of this . What is this and how effective is it ? @!FOGG : Glowcaps is a relatively new invention and it is a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And it reminds people to take their medications . Right now , across the world , they think that -- how much you take your medications about 50 percent . So 50 percent of the time people are forgetting and with Glowcaps , it has a light and if you do n't take your meds then a sound . If you do n't take your meds then the system calls you on the phone . With Glowcaps , it seems to boost the adherence rate about 30 percent . You are going from about 50 percent adherence to about 80 percent and with some of the studies , over 90 percent adherence to medication . @!KEILAR : That 's -- that 's really difficult sometimes to remember . I know a lot of people they are on antibiotics and doctors will say it is so hard to get people just to remember to take . That 's only for a week or something , it is really difficult . This next one , B.J. , I mean , this scares me to death . I have to tell you . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ could be mortifying . Explain this . @!FOGG : Well , you know , we look at the realities of human nature , two things . Number one we are lazy . Number two , we are pack animals . We want to belong to the group . We do n't want to be ostracized . So any of these technologies or any persuasive technologies to succeed , they need to be simple and they need to be social . Because our social groups , social pressures , social support , can help us overcome that laziness . The scale is really is simple . You just step on it and it turns on , it weighs you and takes your body mass index . And then it shifts it to your computer , your -- your mobile phone , or if you want , it post the results on twitter . @!KEILAR : And that is the part that -- that is freaky to me . I get it , you know , if you were to do it and sort of have a record of it . Or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is -- a site obviously that tracks it . But the idea that you can actually post it to facebook , I mean , I guess that 's the ultimate in accountability , right ? @!FOGG : Well , yes . So -- you do n't have to post it into twitter if you do n't want to . But for some people , they would find a lot of -- I know I would find a lot of social support . For example , if I 'm trying to lose ten pounds and get on the scale and lost two , I want to celebrate that with my friends . And certainly I would get some responses saying good job B.J. keep going . @!KEILAR : OK , maybe -- maybe you can just do it with a couple of -- I could do it with a couple of girlfriends . Not everybody that 's on my facebook page , I will tell you that . B.J. Fogg the director of Persuasive Technology Lab at Stanford . Great stuff , really interesting and thanks for being with us. @!FOGG @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ surgery for state workers . This is a proposal that came up in South Carolina last week and wait until you hear what they decided . @!KEILAR : The Food and Drug Administration has approved a controversial new emergency contraceptive . It is like the morning after pill but can be taken up five days after sex . The pill is called Ella . An abortion rights groups are really happy about this approval . But as you can imagine , anti-abortion activists are not . Earlier today we heard from both sides . @ ! CINDY-PEARSON-EXE : I 'm basing on what I think about on the hundreds of pages of documentation that was submitted to the FDA and made public a couple of months ago and our review of those studies show that when given to women who had an unintended accidental exposure to intercourse without protection , this pill reduces the risk of those women getting pregnant when they did n't want to very significantly and for a period of up to five days after intercourse . That 's been studied in hundreds of women , actual @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ lab . That 's when we know about the pill . @!CATHERINE-DAVIS-G : I 'm astounded that we are not testing this pill to see what the effects would be . The European Medical Association , which is the equivalent of our FDA , is giving exactly opposite information than this one woman is saying today . They are saying it does cause abortion . They are saying that in mice and monkeys and guinea pigs , et cetera , that it does cause abortion , which is why they require a test . @!KEILAR : The Ella pill was approved for use in Europe last year , and it 's already available in at least 22 countries . China says it 's completed an investigation into a Chinese company 's baby milk powder and there 's no evidence it caused three infant girls to grow breasts . The government says that clinical investigation showed no link between the premature sexual development of the babies and the milk powder in any of the samples that were tested . So here 's one story that really grabbed our attention . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ program paying for weight loss surgery for some state workers . Critics say that it 's a big waste of money , especially at a time when the state faces huge budget shortfalls , and Yvonne Wenger is covering this story for the " Post and Courier Newspaper . " She 's joining us now live from Columbia , South Carolina . Yvonne thanks so much for coming in to be with us . But before we get to this question of is this a good idea , considering the economy , just kind of explain to us exactly what 's going on with this pilot program , who 's going to get these surgeries . @!YVONNE-WENGER-REP : " Sure . The state is funding 100 weight loss surgeries for state workers and retirees on the state health plan . And it 's about $24,000 per operation . So there is $2.4 million that 's been set aside for these surgeries within the next year . @!KEILAR : Now , they 're obviously doing this because they think that long-term , even that up front $24,000 investment in each of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . What have they cited to make that case ? @!WENGER : There really was n't much discussion on the house or Senate floor , if any , for this program . So it was n't vetted , at least before the public very much . It was debated at the committee level . But they 're going to track these individuals for 18 months , and look at the results , and then decide if it 's something that they want to continue or not . So , I did n't have access to any hard numbers that say they believe that they can save " x " amount of money after this person has lost the weight . I do n't think that study has been done to this point . @!KEILAR : And something about South Carolina is that it does have an obesity rate that is above the national average . So it 's certainly even more of a concern in that state . But when you talk to people , and even they know that , that this is a problem that they 're facing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? Are they OK with this ? Or do they think that it 's a bad idea to spend 24 grand for each of these people , when a lot of people are pinching pennies ? @!WENGER : Yes , well , at least the vocal readers that I 've heard from are pretty opposed to the program . They think their legislators have their priorities mixed up and that the state has many more pressing needs , and that there needs to be some more personal responsibility involved , and that the state should n't be bailing these people out from a situation that they created . And , again , that is the vocal readers I 've heard from and I 'm sure there are many people across the state who think that this is a smart investment , and that this is a way to improve quality of life for people and help them to change behaviors that have resulted in South Carolina having a higher rate of obesity than the nation . And it is the same for children . Children in South Carolina are heavier @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ cover Congress normally , so we 're always hearing about voters , who are very upset about spending , and deficit spending , but just spending and government spending . And obviously that is coming up as an issue here , too . But do you think , when you say that there were n't really , I guess studies or statistics that were cited publicly by these lawmakers who decided to do this , do you think maybe a better way for them to have gone about this was to really make their case for this . Did they not do a good enough job making their case for why this is a good idea ? @!WENGER : I think that that precisely the opposite happened . That this program did n't raise a lot of curiosity in lawmakers , otherwise it would have been an issue . It would have been a big floor debate . But I think that there is data out there that shows that this is a cost- effective investment , and I was talking to a surgeon as part of my research for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ database that surgeons enter thousands of patients , weight loss results , and show , details that show that they come off of more expensive treatment down the line for diabetes , or high blood pressure or sleep apnea . And so I think that the data is already out there , but I do n't think there was any specific case study in South Carolina that showed -- that 's what this is intended to be , is that case study to say , here are our results that we have in South Carolina . @!KEILAR : That 's really interesting . Yvonne Wenger for us there , covering the story from " The Post and Courier " Newspaper there in Columbia , South Carolina . Sounds like a good investment , but maybe just the timing is really hard for some folks to swallow . Thanks for being with us , Yvonne . @!WENGER : Glad to be here . Thank you . @!KEILAR : They trained , they fought , and they survived . But coming home presents a new battle . @ ! RICHARD-WILKS-UNE : After @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . This is just -- I volunteered to go back to Iraq . @!KEILAR : We follow one man 's struggle to find work after coming home from the war . @!KEILAR : They answer the call to serve their country and when they come home they naturally want to pick up where they left off . But CNN 's Kate Bolduan reports that 's becoming a whole other battle . @ ! WILKS : I 'm looking up security and law enforcement type jobs that they might be offering . @!KATE-BOLDUAN-CNN- : Forty five year-old Richard Wilks has served with the Army National Guard for five years , fighting eight months in Iraq , only to return home in 2008 to a new battle he never expected . The fight to find a job . @!WILKS : I was putting out resume , after resume . I 'd have some interviews . And you just -- I just could n't get hired . @!BOLDUAN : Frustrated and running out of money , Wilks turned to the only place he knew would hire . @!WILKS : I opted to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ This is -- I volunteered to go back to Iraq . @!BOLDUAN : Employers are required by law to hold jobs for reservists called to duty . And are banned from discriminating against a job applicant because of their military service . But soldiers like Wilks fear their guard service makes employers reluctant to take them on . @!WILKS : They do n't want to take the time to hire someone and then have them deployed and then have to rehire someone . @!BOLDUAN : Wilks is back home once again and again facing the same transition to civilian life without work . He 's not alone . The jobless rate among veterans who 've served since 9/11 rose to 11.8 percent last month . Compare that to the national rate of 9.5 percent . The Army National Guard says this problem is especially troubling among their ranks . @!CPT-BRIAN-ZDUNOWSK : They have skills , and they have training that should , in a good economy , give them an edge over their peers . @!BOLDUAN : But what 's the reality that you 're seeing ? @!ZDUNOWSKI : The @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ volume of people . @!BOLDUAN-@1voice-ov : Unemployment is such a big issue for the Army National Guard that some states are testing out programs to help their part-time soldiers . Captain Brian Zdunowski runs one program in Maryland . @!ZDUNOWSKI : You see employers out there . What I 'm in essence doing is into the sea throwing a life ring for them and pulling that life ring until one of these employers picks them up . @!BOLDUAN : The help includes resume tips , interview coaching , also a database of military friendly employers and job openings . @!ZDUNOWSKI : They deserve the assistance because they have stepped forward for their country . @!BOLDUAN : Richard Wilks continues his search , a tough economy , another tough battle ahead . Any regrets ? @!WILKS : I do n't have any regrets at all . I love serving in the military and I love serving my country . @!BOLDUAN : Kate Bolduan , CNN , Washington .

@@4082141 @!JOY-BEHAR-HOST : Mel Gibson has been seen in public . At least we think he has . Thats him in disguise , you know . Maybe he s trying to avoid the paparazzi . Who knows ? But I do know one thing . That ever since Braveheart he loves playing dress-up . Look . Here he is in Malibu . Here he is on Rosh Hashanah . Here he is at the VMAs . You know , not for nothing , the man knows how to wear a brisket. @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Coming up on THE JOY @!BEHAR SHOW . The NFL investigates a female reporters complaints about her treatment in a New York Jets locker room . Now the great debate rages on . Can an attractive woman in a male-dominated profession get a fair shake ? And the Tea Party tallied some big wins in yesterdays primaries but can they get all the way to Washington . Plus , the masked man : wait until you see the ridiculous disguise Mel Gibson was caught wearing in L.A. That and more starting right now . @!BEHAR : NFL officials began questioning New York Jets players and coaches yesterday @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Sainz . Of course , they held the questioning at Hooters , but still . Heres what Sainz had to say about the controversy when she was on my show yesterday . @ ! INES-SAINZ-SPORTS : Everybody start to make noses and expressions about myself . But I have eight years working in this kind of things and in Mexico and in Europe and other parts . I decide its better to go focus on my job and do nt pay attention . @!BEHAR : Thats a good idea . So did Sainz invite the cat calls and suggestive comments with her provocative attire or do women deserve to be treated professionally regardless of how theyre dressed ? Even in testosterone-fueled environments . With me now to debate the issue are Jillian Barberie-Reynolds , co-host of " Good Day , L.A. " and former NFL correspondent ; Bonnie Bernstein , sports caster and host of 1050 ESPN Radio ; and Max Kellerman , CNN contributor and sports analyst . Ok . Let me start with Jillian . Ok . Sainz defended this picture of what she wore to practice @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ picture . Ok . She said its not inappropriate , rather . Im sorry . Do you agree or is she being naive when she says its not inappropriate , Jillian ? @!JILLIAN-BARBERIE-R : Well , I think its a little bit of both Joy . Ive been on the NFL at the NFC Conferences for many years . I did three Super Bowls working with the NFL for ten years . I wore jeans and sweaters . Its how you fill it out . Look , shes a beauty queen . Lets call it what it is and not be naive . Shes known for her beauty . Did nt she win a big beauty contest ? @!BEHAR : She was Miss Spain , I think . @!BARBERIE-REYNOLDS : Ok . So shes Miss Spain . She did nt win the contest for the academics . Its a beauty contest . So she is beautiful obviously and of course , its going to draw attention . And Joy , I can tell you , you can draw as much or as little attention as you like on the sidelines @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Im also a little offended that I did nt get cat-called like that . But it is a matter of -- @!BEHAR : Really ? @!BARBERIE-REYNOLDS : Well , it is a matter of -- she looks a certain way and shes going to get attention for it . @!BEHAR : All right . Thank you . Now , she tweeted after the practice that she was embarrassed by what they were doing but she did nt feel threatened by it . I have to put that out there . What do you think she expected ? You sort of have to know that there are going to be cat calls in a locker room if you come in with tight pants . Im not saying they were right . Im just saying its a little disingenuous to say youre shocked by that . @!BONNIE-BERNSTEIN- : Youre talking about two different things . The first question is should they have behaved the way they allegedly have behaved ? Men and women are allowed in locker rooms . There should be equal access and equal professional treatment . But I sort @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ locker room with skin-tight jeans and thats the way you want to portray yourself , I do nt know how anybody could be surprised if there are going to be looks . The attire , Joy , does nt justify the behavior . But youre naive to think -- @!MAX-KELLERMAN-CNN : Bonnie was a gymnast . Did you ever put on as tight jeans as you could and walk into a locker room ? @!BERNSTEIN : I do nt know if I would be able to walk , period , if I ever put on jeans that tight . But Ive worn jeans in the locker room but theyre more conservative . I have a shirt that covers it . Its just -- to me its all about how you want to be perceived . And I just think Im a little more conservative . @!BEHAR : But Max , shouldnt she be treated respectfully regardless of what shes wearing ? I mean really ? Kellerman : On the one hand , she was dressed inappropriately . I think thats pretty obvious . On the other hand -- an also @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ some whistles ? I mean you saw her -- when she was talking to you out on the street , she was getting whistles . You heard guys yelling while she was talking to you . @!BEHAR : Were they yelling at her ? We do nt know . Its New York . Who knows ? @!KELLERMAN : Yes . It sounded like it . Kellerman : On the one hand she was dressed inappropriately . On the other hand , if they were saying really lewd , obnoxious things , then that is also inappropriate whether or not she could anticipate that sort of thing . @!BEHAR : Right . But I mean Bonnie , is there anything wrong with using sex appeal in a job , really ? I do nt know that theres anything really -- @!BERNSTEIN : IT depends on how you want to frame your career . And Joy , frankly , I think this is one of the big problems . I think women in our business , particularly on the sports side , get caught up in trying to figure out , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? " If Im an entertainer , perhaps Im more apt to dress up the sex appeal . If Im a journalist , thats what I consider myself -- @!BEHAR : You consider yourself a journalist ? @!BERNSTEIN : Yes . A lot of people -- I get it , a lot of people do nt . I wrote for my high school paper and my college paper and I majored in broadcast journalism . And when Im in a locker room , I want to be getting eye contact with somebody . I want them listening to my questions . In the event they find me attractive , thats lovely and flattering . @!BEHAR : I know but why is she responsible for their stupid behavior no matter what she wears really ? Its almost like when a girl walks in Central Park at night in a short skirt , maybe , and shes attacked , they blame her . They say why is she out in the middle of the night ? Why is she dressing like that ? Its nobodys business when shes out really or what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ theyre blaming -- this blaming of a victim -- Im not quite sure what shes a victim of . She did nt claim she was sexually harassed . She tweeted what she would feel because were in this culture now where everyone tweets . Its so narcissistic . You know , " I woke up in the morning . Im having a cup of coffee and talking to my friend . I tied my shoe . " @!BEHAR : Yes . @!KELLERMAN : Shes just tweeting in the locker room what was happening . She felt embarrassed supposedly because these guys were getting her cat calls or wolf whistles or whatever its called . @!BEHAR : What shes doing is thanking the NFL at this point and thanking the Jets -- @!BERNSTEIN : But there are mixed messages though . There are mixed messages because on the one hand , she tweeted that she was embarrassed . " Im going to die of embarrassment . " On the other hand , shes spoken with other news outlets where she thought it was all in good fun . I did nt @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ threatened . @!KELLERMAN : Have you seen the work Web site -- the Azteca TV Web site ? The Web site of her employer has her in a bikini -- several shots of her in a bikini in sexual poses . @!BEHAR : So ? @!KELLERMAN : This is on her Web site . @!BEHAR : So what . @!KELLERMAN : In other words , she is using her sex appeal to advance her career actively and billing herself that way . So if she simply gets some cat calls , to me thats not a big deal . @!BEHAR : Ok . Jillian -- ok , jump in there Jillian . Go ahead . @!BARBERIE-REYNOLDS : Yes . I know , I totally agree with what you guys are saying . Much like Bonnie , I have a journalism degree . Its how you want to be perceived . Im sure I could have worn the bubble butt jeans and the crop-top -- whatever . It is what it is . And I do nt think shes trying to mask herself as being something shes not . Shes a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ woman in sports or whatever . @!BEHAR : The hottest . The hottest reporter . @!BARBERIE-REYNOLDS : Hottest , excuse me , shes hot . Yes . Just ask her . Shes sizzling . @!KELLERMAN : Jillian , you seem very into her . Ive got to say . @!BEHAR : What are you trying ? Start a rumor -- @!KELLERMAN : Im just saying . Thats like the fifth comment shes made . @!BEHAR : Because she identifies , thats why . Right , Jillian ? Go ahead . Shes hot also ? @!KELLERMAN : Clearly . @!BARBERIE-REYNOLDS : No . I do nt know what Max means by that . But I do know that -- @!KELLERMAN : Joy , do you know what I mean ? @!BARBERIE-REYNOLDS : You cant -- I do nt know that you can have it both ways . Either -- I think there are beautiful women . I worked with Pam Oliver for ten years . I do nt think Pam is -- shes one of the most respected sideline reporters in the NFL . I do nt think shes ever had @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this is the first time in her 100 interviews or something she said along those lines that shes ever had this problem . I think we can vilify her and say as much as we want about her . I do nt think I would have ever worn a belly shirt out there . @!BEHAR : Ok . But what about the fact that men , in general -- you would know about this -- the men who run these leagues and everything and also the networks , they want her to look like that . Shes only doing what the job description sort of requires . Isnt that true ? @!BERNSTEIN : I think theres actually a little bit of a cultural divide here . I think they do . To Maxs point about the Azteca TV website . They do play up her sexuality . I think we see that more in entertainment here . I think by and large in sports , you see it sometimes . You see it in other times . @!BEHAR : yes . @!BERNSTEIN : But overall , Joy -- and I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ issue . In my almost 20 years in the business now , Ive never had an issue in the NFL . And theyre going after this in the dressing -- @!BEHAR : So you do nt have that when you go into the locker room ? They do nt come on to you that way or cat call or anything like that to you ? @!BERNSTEIN : Ive never had an issue when Im in the locker room . @!BEHAR : Because youre an attractive woman -- why do nt they do that to you ? @!BERNSTEIN : Maybe they do nt find me attractive . @!BEHAR : They do . Im sure they do . @!KELLERMAN : I think that Bonnies a professional and her resume says it . And she takes her job seriously and shes not simply exploiting her sexuality to get ahead . I mean , its a simple as that . @!BEHAR : These guys -- some of them are naked in the locker room , I understand . Have you encountered that ? @!BERNSTEIN : Inevitably that will happen on occasion . Theyre @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ wrapping towels around but thats the other side of this . There has been a lot of debate in the last couple of days as to whether women should even be in the locker room . Its our job . @!KELLERMAN : Or reporters should have a separate room for this . They do nt need male or female reporters in the locker room . @!BEHAR : Jillian , do you get this behavior towards you ? @!BARBERIE-REYNOLDS : No . And again I was on the sideline for many Super Bowls and talked to the players if theyre down there . Do they come over and say flirty things and have fun -- absolutely , as theyre warming up . But it was never an issue and I never took offense to it by any means . And to what Bonnie is saying , if you go back and look at -- I mean , are males allowed in the female -- lets say synchronized swimmers or gymnasts . Are male reporters allowed to see women naked ? @!BERNSTEIN : They are allowed -- reporters at the locker @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ The WNBA , the men can be in there . @!BEHAR : So men do go in there ? @!BERNSTEIN : And I just know having been a college gymnast , that I would feel terribly uncomfortable if I had men in the locker room . But you have to understand Joy were in there because were on deadlines , were getting interviews . We do nt have time for guys to take their showers and get dressed and put their jewelry on and call his wife -- @!BEHAR : So you cant wait until they are finished . @!BERNSTEIN : I know and there is a guy -- @!BEHAR : I see because that was an issue why not wait until -- @!KELLERMAN : I mean , I think that most athletes are uncomfortable with reporters in the locker room , period . @!REYNOLDS : And I get that . I totally get that . @!BEHAR : All right , I think Im going to walk around in a hot outfit at the ( INAUDIBLE ) court in Central Park from now on and see what happens . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in trouble , Joy ? @!BEHAR : Yes , you will . But I might enjoy it . You never know . Thanks everybody . Up next , the Tea Partiers are partying a little harder after some key primary wins . But will the movement crash and burn in the general election ? Stay tuned . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Coming up a little later on THE JOY @!BEHAR SHOW , Mel Gibsons attempt to go incognito backfires big time . Well have the latest on Mels ridiculous disguise . And Bristol Palin prepares for her debut on " Dancing with the Stars " with a little help from none other than Kate Gosselin . Now back to Joy . @!BEHAR : Well , it looks like the Tea Party knocked the moderates out of the box last night . They celebrated major victories in primary races in the northeast . But none bigger than Delawares Christine ODonnell who shocked many by defeating the GOP establishments pick , Mike Castle . Watch . @ ! CHRISTINE-ODONNEL : Ladies and gentlemen , the people of Delaware have spoken . No more politics @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Party candidate heading to the senate or will the Democrats beat her in the general election ? With me now to discuss this is Roy Sekoff , founding editor of the " Huffington Post " ; also with me is Leslie Sanchez , Republican strategist and author . Welcome to the show you guys . You know Leslie -- @!ROY-SEKOFF-FOUNDI : Thanks Joy . @!BEHAR : -- when she was -- when she was running in the primary , the National Republican Senatorial Committee did nt give her money . And the GOP did nt support her . Now , that seems to have all changed . Is that because everyone loves a winner or because they have no choice and they just has to go with it ? What do you think ? @!LESLIE-SANCHEZ-RE : Youre -- Joy youre a little bit right on both . Quite honestly to think about that ; the truth is that she has proven to be a viable candidate . People in the state of Delaware support her , like her ideas . And do nt forget , she was talking about economic @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and freedom . It resonated . And people learned long enough -- long ago not to try to predict Delaware . So I think with respect to that , you saw the senatorial committee , Republicans come out and support her . Put a little a bit of money in her coffers . And I think youll see a lot more . Her Web site went down -- @!BEHAR : Right . @!SANCHEZ : -- a lot of people are saying because the donations are coming in. @!BEHAR : Well , they have no choice , Roy , right ? But is this a little penny wise and dollar foolish -- Roy ? I mean -- @!SEKOFF : Well , you know , I mean , its really is a small amount that were talking about , Joy . I mean , I think that -- did nt Michael Steeles boys spend more than that at the lesbian strip club out here in Los Angeles last year ? @!BEHAR : Oh , boy . @!SEKOFF : So were not talking a lot of money . Its not -- its not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ million . So its a little bit of money to buy some goodwill with a very important part of their constituency . So I think it was a no-brainer that they had to turn around and do it after saying -- @!BEHAR : Right . @!SEKOFF : -- that they werent going to do it last night . @!BEHAR : Ok now Karl Rove , believe it or not , slammed this woman , ODonnell , last night on Fox News . Watch this . @ ! KARL-ROVE-FOX-NEW : Ive met her . Im not , Ive got to tell you I wasnt frankly impressed as -- in her abilities as a candidate . And there are just a lot of nutty things shes been saying that just simply do nt add up -- @!BEHAR : A lot of nutty things , Leslie ? Is there trouble in paradise ? @!SANCHEZ : You know , I think people had a lot of pre-conceived notions about this candidate . Once they win the primary , its amazing how it creates strange bedfellows . But bottom line shes energized the base @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Republican opponent to Barack Obama and basically saying , there wasnt a lot of light between those two . Its something that should concern the Democrats more than the Republicans . @!BEHAR : Roy , it seems -- @!SEKOFF : Yes but it -- @!BEHAR : -- to me that -- @!SEKOFF : Yes . @!BEHAR : -- that shes getting her tips from Sarah Palin . And Sarah went in there and backed her up , right ? Whos nuttier do you think , Christine or Sarah ? @!SEKOFF : Well , you know actually , Christine is actually when you look right down to it is even nuttier than Sarah . This is a big win for Sarah she gets to chuck up another win in her endorsement column . But I think the stuff thats going to come out , even a victory is not going to make it go away that -- that she has a record of not paying her taxes . That she has a record about dissembling about what she did -- through other times when he ran against Joe Biden , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , she has a great background Joy , where she first claimed -- her claim to fame is when she came out as an abstinence spokesperson -- @!BEHAR : Oh yes Im glad youre saying that -- @!SEKOFF : -- saying that masturbation -- yes . @!BEHAR : Let me -- let me play the clip because its so much fun to watch . @!SEKOFF : Ok. @!BEHAR : Ok lets play this . @!SEKOFF : Its a good one . @!BEHAR : Yes . @ ! UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL : We need to address sexuality with young people . And masturbation is part of sexuality . But it is important to discuss this from a moral point of view . The Bible says that lust in your heart is committing adultery . So you cant masturbate without lust . Youre going to be pleasing each other . And if he already knows what pleases him and he can please himself , then why am I in the picture ? @!BEHAR : Well , Leslie thats her platform -- @!SEKOFF : Why am I in the picture ? @!BEHAR : -- @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " Rachel Maddows Show " last night . Go ahead Roy . @!SANCHEZ : You know , Im surprised we werent talking about the bad choice there and that was in the spiral perm . I did that in the 90s . It was just really the wrong move there . @!SEKOFF : Yes I know but this is obviously , this is not a good day . Yesterday was not a good day for masturbators , Joy . Clearly this is -- you know , the biggest opponent of masturbation since your seventh grade science teacher told you about the hair on your palms . @!SANCHEZ : Lets be -- now lets -- @!SEKOFF : Its not -- its not a good day for the self-pleasurer. @!SANCHEZ : -- lets put it in perspective , I do nt think its fair , I think its really sad to be criticizing someone for their religious beliefs . I mean -- @!SEKOFF : No , no , look , thats not -- thats not necessary -- @!SANCHEZ : -- Rachel Maddow may not agree with that -- that she created an @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!BEHAR : She needs to watch some porn and gets some tips . Thats what she needs . @!SEKOFF : Leslie -- exactly . Leslie she was still -- Leslie she was still on the Web site as of last year as one of their spokespeople . And theres a difference -- were not criticizing the religious beliefs . But youve got to say that -- @!SANCHEZ : Youre not ? How are you not ? @!SEKOFF : Im telling you exactly that Im not . @!BEHAR : Oh come on . @!SEKOFF : Theres a lot of Christian people who I understand who like sex and do nt think that just because you masturbate , you do nt need a woman . @!BEHAR : Thats right . @!BEHAR : Leslie , come on . Christians masturbate just like everybody else . But were going to continue with this in just a minute . @!BEHAR : Im back with my political panel . Let me ask you something , Leslie . Is the Tea Party going to be a third party in the whole system now ? Could that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ way Nader was to Gore in that last election against Bush . I mean do nt you think that that will hurt the GOP if theres a third party ? @!SANCHEZ : I think if you look at what the Tea Party supports , in most cases , theyre talking about economic health of this country . Increased deficits , concerned about the direction of the country and their political and their private liberties . Thats whats important . Theyre not talking too much social issues . Its economic across the board . You have to acknowledge the trend . And I think to the effect that youre seeing a lot of independent voters have moved toward Republicans on economic issues , the deficit issues -- @!BEHAR : Yes . But you say its economic only . I do nt get that . This Christine ODonnell -- she is against abortion . Shes against masturbation . Shes against stem cell research . Shes against gay rights . I do nt see that theyre only fiscally responsible people in there . @!SANCEZ : I will tell you that what is resonating @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ aggressive , where people are playing in these tight margins is these independent voters , voters who are mobilized and engaged and theyre looking more at economic issues more than the social issues . @!BEHAR : Right . @!SANCHEZ : And theyre also favoring GOP newcomers . They want -- were in the era of kick the bums out . Republican or Democrat , I think anybody whos an incumbent right now has a problem . @!BEHAR : Well , thats kind of irrational in my opinion . Roy , isnt this the best thing that could happen to Democrats ? These Tea Party candidates ? @!SEKOFF : Listen , the GOP is clearly having this identity crisis . We have the establishment figures on the one side . We have the insurgents on the other . The question is , are the Democrats going to be able to capitalize on it or are they going to blow it ? We have to admit , they cant just say , shes an easy win . They cant just talk that up . There is a great energy . When they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ about voting . The numbers on the GOP side are way , way , way above the Democrats . What are the Democrats going to do to energize their base ? They cant just sit back and let a candidate like ODonnell and hope she implodes. @!BEHAR : Whats your advice Leslie to the Democrats ? What should they do ? @!SANCHEZ : They need to start talking about the economy . They need to understand that when people are out of work they forget party affiliation . Theyre not Republican ; theyre not Democrat . Theyre looking for a job . That has always been the focus . Thats what a lot of these candidates are talking about , the ones who are surging . @!BEHAR : What did the moderates in the GOP make of the point that -- you know , get the government off my back , get them out of my bank book ? Everything -- I do nt want any government . Basically the Tea Party is against government but then they say , do nt touch my Medicare , do nt touch my @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do they reconcile those two disparate ideas , Leslie ? @!SANCHEZ : Theres a little bit of both . I mean , the party of ( INAUDIBLE ) , there is libertarian -- I mean you have a lot of folks who do nt want the government involved in it . Theyre very concerned about the mass growth of the federal government and its implications on your personal life . Theyre very real concerns . And look at the state and theyre pushing back as well . @!BEHAR : I never understand that Roy . You know , its like theyre worried about infringements on their personal life . But when it comes to abortion , when it comes to gay rights , theyre right up there in your business . I do nt understand . Its such a confusing party , the GOP , to me. @!SEKOFF : Theres no consistency . Theres no consistency there . Its the same way as saying the most important thing is cutting the deficit until it comes to extending the Bush tax cuts for millionaires . @!BEHAR : Yes . @!SEKOFF : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Its crazy . @!SANCHEZ : Were a vast umbrella of many issues . @!BEHAR : Ok . Thanks guys , very much . This just will go on and on , this conversation . Up next , Mel Gibson goes incognito with a fake mustache . I wonder if he went with the Groucho or the Stalin . Well find out . @!BEHAR : Celebrities handle paparazzi differently . Some stars scream at them and others like Sean Penn punch them and kick their cars . But Mel Gibson is different . He is crafty . He tries to fool them by going into disguise . Look at this picture , OK , who is he kidding with that disguise . OK with me to discuss this and more are comedian Kevin Meaney , Daphne Rubin Vega , co-star of the new film " Jack Goes Boating . " And Natalie Thomas , deputy editor for " US Weekly . " OK you know , guys , why is he in disguise ? Is he feeling guilty ? Does he - he does nt want to get recognized obviously ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hate him on the street ? Anybody , Kevin ? @!KEVIN-MEANEY-COME : I think he s got these great disguises . But he should do something else . @!BEHAR : Like what ? @!MEANEY : You know like , for instance , what I do , I do nt know if he s ever considered dressing in womens clothes . @!BEHAR : Well that could be next . @!MEANEY : And thats something I have done myself to -- @!BEHAR : And you brought us a picture ? @!MEANYE : Yes , I actually bought a picture , there is a picture up there - @!BEHAR : Lets see , there you are . @!MEANEY : There I am . Im not in full disguise , but Im preparing to disguise myself . And then I wear a red burqa on top of that . @!BEHAR : So slenderizing that thing . @!MEANEY : Well its actually a fat suit . Its a fat suit , part of it yes . Yes , so , Im not that heavy . But with the red burqa , really , you cant @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Daphne , why do you think he s disguising himself ? Do you know the story of the kind of verbal abuse towards the wife -- @!DAPHNE-RUBIN-VEGA , : Right . I heard something about the rant . And he was talking about how hed never go out looking like that . So if he dressed in drag , then you know , all the -- just the bad advice that he gave her and the threats would come back to him . @!MEANEY : Uh huh , do you think hed look good in that red dress ? @!RUBIN-VEGA : You know , you must be very - @!MEANEY : Were the same age . @!BEHAR : Let me just refresh your memory on what the rants were . @!RUBIN-VEGA : Uh huh . @!BEHAR : He called Oksana a whore and " c " word . He said you look like an f-ing pig in heat and if you get raped by a pack of " n " words it would be your fault . He s a real charmer . If I were him , I would @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : I mean he s clearly not a man - he s not all there . Like he s clearly lost it . He needs to be not going out in disguise , not following paparazzi and confronting them . He needs to go somewhere and work on himself and take care of his issues and lay low . And not be out and about in L.A. I do nt think its the place for him . @!MEANEY : But did nt he go up to the paparazzi car with his phone camera and say , you know , and they did nt recognize him at first . And then they started interviewing him saying , you know , what did you really mean that to your wife ? Did you really say these things to her ? @!BEHAR : Well I know that they , the paparazzi also said , do you think youll ever make a movie in Hollywood again ? They asked him that which is really the crucial question . @!RUBIN-VEGA : And what it did he say ? @!BEHAR : I do nt know , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ said , do you have a response to that ? He said , not to you . And then he said , how does it feel to go around sniffing other peoples laundry . Yes so he was kind of attacking the paparazzo for his job . But you know , Mel has not right to be judging people -- @!MEANEY : O but did nt he just doing a movie with Nell though ? @!RUBIN-VEGA : I think they are friends . I mean like this is the time when he needs his friends . Clearly -- @!MEANEY : No that was the movie " Nell . " That was the movie " Nell . " @!BEHAR : You mean the movie about the deaf girl ? Where did that come from ? @!MEANEY : No he just did a movie with Jodie Foster . @!BEHAR : Oh Jodie Foster , who plays Nell . @!BEHAR : You know what the movie is called " The Beaver. " @!MEANEY : " The Beaver. " @!BEHAR : I kid you not . " The Beaver. " @!MEANEY : How @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that title from ? @!MEANEY : From one of his rants. @!BEHAR : OK lets change - lets change the topic . Kate Gosselin OK is adding a nine to her plus-eight . Kate is reportedly mentoring Bristol Palin for her upcoming appearance on " Dancing With The Stars . " Now why would Bristol take dancing advice from a woman who looks like shes dancing on hot coals when she is walking and dancing . Why ? @!RUBIN-VEGA : Admittedly , its not about dancing . It has nothing to do with dancing . Its about selling yourself . @!THOMAS : Kate herself said , reportedly , that its a popularity contest and that Bristol needs to do it up . @!BEHAR : And take tips from Sarah Palin . Like what kind of tips could Sarah Palin might have -- her do you think ? @!MEANEY : Well stay away from Jon Gosselin , thats for sure . @!BEHAR : Yes , yes . @!MEANEY : So I do nt know if he was -- was he in the background trying to pick up Bristol Palin ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!BEHAR : That is sick . @!MEANEY : It could happen . @!BEHAR : This is what she said . Kate reportedly told Bristol to sell the performance , even if your feet are a mess . What kind of advice is that to give the girl , to destroy had her feet ? @!MEANEY : What does she have , athletes foot ? @!BEHAR : To be on " Dancing With The Stars . " Thats the advice shes giving her . @!THOMAS : Again if its Kate Gosselin giving you advice , maybe not the one to be taking the advice from . @!BEHAR : I know well theyre both good , theyre both single mothers . @!THOMAS : True . @!BEHAR : You know , they have both got knocked up plenty and theres no man in the room . They have that in common . @!RUBIN-VEGA : Sorry , I did nt mean to interrupt . @!BEHAR : Thats fine . @!RUBIN-VEGA : Its like the fascination with -- @!BEHAR : Kate . @!RUBIN-VEGA : Trashy. @!BEHAR : Shes very popular . I understand you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " People " magazine ? @!RUBIN-VEGA : She is. @!MEANEY : Well I saw her show on the other night , " KATE PLUS EIGHT . " It is you know -- @!BEHAR : What do you like about it ? @!MEANEY : Well my daughter likes to watch it . So you know , because she is an only child and her father dresses up in womens clothing . @!BEHAR : Im sorry for the child . Poor little thing . @!MEANEY : What are you doing tonight , daddy ? I was just trying on little dresses honey . Let me get back to you later . @!BEHAR : OK youre putting aside some money for the therapy is what I want to know . @!MEANEY : But its interesting looking into somebodys life , you know , that has all these kids . And its like , oh my god , theyre going on another vacation . Theyre always going places . @!BEHAR : Yes . @!MEANEY : Its kind of fun to watch the kids go to these places and you know dream about what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!BEHAR : OK the next one , a British judge sends singer George Michael to jail for a DUI , giving him eight weeks in the slammer . OK , he was also -- he was once arrested for engaging in a lewd act with a man in a public toilet . So sending him to jail with a bunch of guys is a win-win. @!MEANEY : This is heaven , this is absolutely heaven . @!BEHAR : Its a win , win . I mean what do you think about that . @!MEANEY : I always dreamed of going to jail you know when I was younger so I wouldnt have to come out . You know so I could be in jail with men . You know that was my fantasy at one time , you know . And now Im out so I do nt have to go to jail . You know but he was high on the pot . @!BEHAR : He was on the pot . @!MEANEY : He was on the pot . @!BEHAR : Listen , how do they know you were @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ -- your eyes are bloodshot . @!BEHAR : Yes . @!MEANEY : And -- @!BEHAR : Always ? Not always . @!MEANEY : Yes . And probably he was smoking the pot in the car . @!BEHAR : He was smoking the pot . When they opened the window , smoke comes out ? @!MEANEY : Yes when they open the window , smoke comes out . He s like hey , what happen . @!THOMAS : They also said there was prescription drug usage . So they had to have tested him to know to some extent there was prescription drugs and marijuana . @!MEANEY : Oh they can test you , they can test your hair . Thats why a lot of the people shave their heads when they go in for a drug test . Obviously I do nt do that . You do nt need a drug test when youre doing stand-up comedy . @!BEHAR : youre full of information tonight . @!MEANEY : Yes , thank you . Thank you . @!BEHAR : Thats very good . Now he was sentenced to eight weeks in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ one to Lindsay , how many weeks will he actually -- @!RUBIN-VEGA : What the -- this is in London , is that right ? @!THOMAS : They actually said that he s serving four weeks in jail and serving four weeks on parole . @!MEANEY : Yes . @!THOMAS : So whether he actually serves all those four weeks remains to be seen as well . @!MEANEY : Can he smoke pot while he s on parole ? @!BEHAR : I do nt think so . @!RUBIN-VEGA : Does he get a bracelet , jewelry to go beep ? @!MEANEY : What about a pot brownie ? Do they have a pot brownie . @!BEHAR : Well its hard to detect a pot brownie . @!MEANEY : No of course you can detect a pot brownie . @!BEHAR : No you cant. @!MEANEY : You do nt know anything about pot . Its in the blood . @!BEHAR : I despise marijuana . I need a drug to increase my appetite ? No , I do nt need that aggravation . @!RUBIN-VEGA : And makes you paranoid @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the fact that he was on the pot for a long time . @!MEANEY : Yes , yes , he was . @!BEHAR : So he s open . I mean , he would just say , Im on the pot . @!MEANEY : And then that whole thing about him going into the bathrooms -- @!BEHAR : And be and the pot . @!MEANEY : Look for other prisoners . Its like he wanted to go to jail . @!BEHAR : Yes . @!MEANEY : He would go in on the pot and then like look for something going to the bathroom and say , do you want to come back you know , to my pot place and smoke more pot and have gay sex . @!BEHAR : OK theres one more story . @!RUBIN-VEGA : I miss his voice though . Come on . @!BEHAR : You do . @!MEANEY : Oh he has a beautiful voice . You ever hear him sing in the bathroom ? @!BEHAR : Universal Orlando is expanding some seats on it its Harry Potter and the forbidden journey @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is to Dunkin Donuts. Why do nt they tell people to just lose weight ? Its very unhealthy . @!MEANEY : I want to get on the Harry Potter ride . How come I cant get on the Harry Potter ride ? @!RUBIN-VEGA : Lets shame you before you get on the ride . No , fatties . You know -- youre too fat . @!BEHAR : But are nt they enablers ? It seems like theyre enablers. @!RUBIN-VEGA : Well Jetblue does it . Should you not ride in an airplane because youre overweight ? @!BEHAR : Well because theres a crazy guy running the airplane . All right thanks guys , well be back in a minute . @ ! UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL : Hey . I thought you were supposed to be studying for your cooking exam . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : I am. @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL : How can you do on two things at once ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Havent you heard at shake and bake ? @!BEHAR : John Ritters unexpected death at age 54 from an aortic dissection in 2003 , shocked his fans , his friends and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ their then 5-year-old daughter , Stella . Amys new memoir , " With Love And Laughter : John Ritter , " is a touching story . Here with me now is Amy . Welcome to the show . @!AMY-YASBECK-AUTHO : JOHN RITTER " : Hi Joy , thank you . How about that outfit John had on ? @!BEHAR : Yes . @!YASBECK : He took all that stuff home and tried to squeeze into it when he was older and more muscular . He had everything @!BEHAR : He was a funny , funny guy . @!YASBECK : Funny , funny . @!BEHAR : Very adorable . People were very upset when he passed away . @!YASBECK : People took it very personally , like he was someone in their family . @!BEHAR : Let me go back to the fact that you met him when you were in high school ? Did you ever -- @!YASBECK : No I did nt meet him when I was in high school . @!BEHAR : No I mean you saw him on TV , sorry . @!YASBECK : Exactly , in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ high school . @!BEHAR : And you fell for him while you were watching him ? @!YASBECK : You know what , fell for him , get it , Ritter going pluck . @!BEHAR : Got it . @!YASBECK : By Joy Behar , ladies and gentlemen . @!BEHAR : I use to watch Ed Sullivan and I was turned on by him . But this is a whole new - kidding . @!YASBECK : I heard Ed had a really big shoe . @!BEHAR : Really ? You never know . @!YASBECK : I thought John was - @!BEHAR : So there you are - @!BEHAR : Wait lets put the picture . Here you are . Where are you ? What city ? @!YASBECK : New Ash , outside of Cincinnati , Ohio , with my mom and dad on the couch . And every time the show would start -- @!BEHAR : How old are you ? @!YASBECK : Lets see . Then ? @!BEHAR : Back then , yes . @!YASBECK : I think it was the 70s so I was an embryo probably . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I cant do the math . @!BEHAR : OK , so you were a teenager . @!YASBECK : Lets call it teenager , tween as they call it now . @!BEHAR : Tween. @!YASBECK : Anyway , so I was sitting on the couch with my mom and my dad , and every time the show would start , my mom was somehow compelled to explain the premise every time . See , he s living with them . The reason he can live with them is the reason that he s gay . She would say gay because that was a new fabulous PC word for her . God knows what she said before gay . Because he s pretending to be gay . Do you understand ? Im like , yes , mom . That was so embarrassing . @!BEHAR : So she would keep explaining it to you ? @!YASBECK : Yes . And my dad would laugh . But then there was the first time there were girls , Suzanne and Joyce jumping around without their bras , jumping around . It was very hot stuff @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!BEHAR : Well there was a menage a trois . People use to think they were having , the three of them . I mean I was -- @!YASBECK : Oh , they were . Were youre talking about on the show ? @!BEHAR : Youre funny . Are you a comedienne ? @!YASBECK : No , Im not , Joy Behar. @!BEHAR : You should be , you might want to do that . @!YASBECK : All right I will . @!BEHAR : But he should be , what kind of crazy things did he do at home ? @!YASBECK : At home , you know , the things our dad and grandpa would do , oh , dad . But John did -- he never got a drink without a straw in it , go like this get it stuck in his nose and then just be turning around and say , come on , come on . Or when he would eat , home , away , it did nt matter . He would on purpose get something huge stuck somewhere . And then he would @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Have I got it ? @!BEHAR : He was a clown . He was just a clown husband type of guy , fun . @!YASBECK : He was a clown husband . Honk , honk. @!BEHAR : You know what I mean . Now your daughter Stella was born September 11th , 1998. @!YASBECK : Yes . @!BEHAR : What was John like as a daddy ? Was he wacky with the kids too ? @!YASBECK : Absolutely wacky and fun . @!BEHAR : He was . @!YASBECK : Of course , I got to see him with his three big kids . He was always fantastic and available and go for it with them . And with Stella , she only got him for five years . But she -- shes like a sponge . She absorbed so much of him . And I know thats because of the nature of who had her dad is . So much has got to be what she saw and what she observed . We lived here for a year . She remembers stuff about New York that when she was two @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a pretty memorable guy . @!BEHAR : He was a memorable guy that must have been quite a loss for her , my god . @!YASBECK : Absolutely . @!BEHAR : And she -- he passed away on September 11th . Right ? @!YASBECK : Her birthday . @!BEHAR : Yes , on had her birthday . And September 11th is such a loaded date anyway for you . @!YASBECK : Forget it . @!BEHAR : Yes , so tell me what happened that night . @!YASBECK : It was actually in the day . We were supposed to go to a school . John and I were supposed to go to her back to school day . He fell ill at work , stomach pains and stuff and was taken into the emergency room across the street from where he was working it was erroneously treated for a heart attack that he wasnt having . And he died from a tear in the aorta , as opposed to a block an in the heart . So you can imagine all the treatments were in the opposite thing . And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with god and John as my witness , I swear its getting less and less . Because my family -- I , so many people in the community about vascular disease community have taken great pains to see other families do nt go through what Stella and our family did . @!BEHAR : Of course . Can we say lawsuit ? @!YASBECK : Sure . @!BEHAR : Was there one ? @!YASBECK : There was a lawsuit , yes . @!BEHAR : Thats pretty bad . @!YASBECK : Yes . Its a huge thing . But since then , its almost like pre-John Ritter , which he fell into , and then theres post John Ritter . And I talk to people all the time , they write me and they call me . Im way , way too accessible . But I do nt care . @!BEHAR : Yes . @!YASBECK : And people say , I was saved in the emergency room because I was having these weird pains and gripping thing . And they said , it might be you have a cough . And then theyd @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and said did they check you for the John Ritter thing . @!BEHAR : Wow . @!YASBECK : And the doctor , and some of them were kind of shamed into it . Well all right well give you a CT scan if you want to pay for it . And by god they have a giant aneurysm , which is what happens first . Your aorta is the tube that you know takes everything from the heart into the rest of your body . @!BEHAR : Right . @!YASBECK : And its like if you have a bubble in your tire of your car . You do nt look at it and go , that will go down . Ill drive to Las Vegas . No , you fix it . @!BEHAR : Right . @!YASBECK : Well , thats what the aneurysm -- @!BEHAR : Youre doing good work with that , making people aware . Stay right there . @!YASBECK : Oh Im not going anywhere , Joy Behar. @!BEHAR : Because well continue this in just a minute , youre very cute . @!YASBECK : Thank @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ author of a loving new memoir about her late husband , John Ritter . Tell me about the John Ritter Foundation for Aortic Health is what it is called . @!YASBECK : Exactly , after John died , of course , job one was of course , be Stellas mom and be a whole human being and not just weeping and that . Hard to do and working on it still . Job number two , almost as important as to be able to get the message out there . So I started the John Ritter Foundation for Aortic Health . @!BEHAR : Right . @!YASBECK : At the time , all it was , was me doing Google alerts for aortic dissection and John Ritter and just calling random families . I would just call people to get them into a genetic study . Because it is genetic . Which in the minute you hear that , OK , you say , if somebody has it , and I found out youre 20 percent more likely to have an aortic aneurysm dissection if somebody in your family has it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!BEHAR : Yes . @!YASBECK : Why are nt we talking about that 20 percent . So I would just call families and read Id like read an obituary from Kansas City and call people up , I know its only a week since your son died or your grandmother died but I need to talk to your family . @!BEHAR : Wow , you did that ? @!YASBECK : And sometimes , yes , I did . I did it up all night and cried . Because it was like I talked to so many families . And I never really wanted to be a widow . I did nt want to be John Ritter widow . I wanted to be his wife . @!BEHAR : Yes . @!YASBECK : But when I would call , hey , this is John Ritters widow . They had just heard -- this is any age . Aortic Dissection is at any age . @!BEHAR : At any age . @!YASBECK : So your child has just died . What did he die from ? Its the thing John Ritter died from @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ John . @!BEHAR : Its good to put the name to it . @!YASBECK : And they felt they were part of communities . So our family wrapped our arms around these people , carried them to the University of Texas , the UT Health Center . @!BEHAR : Yes . @!YASBECK : And I have teamed up and now its the John Ritter research program at UT health . @!BEHAR : Uh huh , thats great . @!YASBECK : Theyve discovered genes . You can get tested . @!BEHAR : Who was John -- where was the genetic connection with him such . @!YASBECK : Well heres the thing . Because his brother , Tommy -- we had Tom scanned . And we found the -- " we " -- the doctors and I. But seriously , it takes a village . They found it . It was fixed , completely replaced . They think Tex Ritter , who was Johns dad , the singing cowboy. @!BEHAR : Oh yes , Tex Ritter. @!YASBECK : Because he died of a heart attack , air quotes -- @!BEHAR : He @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : Right . @!YASBECK : Well yes when they talk about statistics for aortic dissection . So many I know people we know and I know youre Italian . @!BEHAR : Im Italian . @!YASBECK : Im Lebanese . We have all these relatives we do nt know what exactly where we are . But we know Aunt Sophie died of a massive heart attack . But its not autopsied. @!BEHAR : Right . @!YASBECK : Its not - so when its a cardiac event , or it could be an aortic dissection , they do nt know what it is , we put it in the cardiac category . So its way more prevalent than people think . @!BEHAR : I think its fantastic what youre doing . @!YASBECK : Thanks , Joy . @!BEHAR : Really incredible . @!YASBECK : Thank you . @!BEHAR : We have to go . @!YASBECK : Thats crazy . Im insulted . Lets see what my mood ring says . My mood ring says -- @!BEHAR : Im sorry . You have to come back . I think you have a career @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ all ? @!YASBECK : I am an actress at all . And Mel Brooks likes me . Half Lebanese and half Irish . That equals one whole Jew . He did , Mel tell her . @!BEHAR : I wish Mel would come on the show . @!YASBECK : Do you want me to tell him to -- - @!BEHAR : Yes , he wont come ? @!YASBECK : No , I know where he eats on Tuesdays . I do . @!BEHAR : OK , the book is called " With Love And Laughter , John Ritter . " Goodnight , everybody . Buy it .

@@4082241 Welcome to @!PARKER/qwq @ ! SPITZER . Tonight , we discuss the single most important issue framing these midterm elections , what role should government play in getting us out of this recession ? And let 's face it , there are two fundamentally different view of that , one of the Tea Party Republican view , which says government should do less , and the Democratic view , which says government has got to do more . @!PARKER : A new movie opens tonight . It is called " I Want Your Money " and it is a conservative argument for dramatic cuts in spending . The founding released two weeks before the midterm election . Anyway you look at it , it is a political statement . Let 's take a quick look at a clip from the film . @ ! UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : So , what you doing here ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : This ? Oh , I 'm redistributing the wealth . I learned in school spreading the Wall Street is good for everyone . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Well , I learned from real life that it is not . What about the guy you 're taking @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ good for 75 percent of the people . Is n't taking money from one person to make three others happy a good thing ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : No . It 's a very bad thing . In fact , there 's a word for it . It 's called theft . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : But it will better the lives of three-fourths of the people . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Actually , it will make life worse for 100 percent of the people . And we call that socialism . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : I ca n't stand how all you conservatives say socialism , like it is a dirty word . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : That 's funny , I feel the same way about how you liberals use the word capitalism . @!SPITZER : You know , I just got to say , it is not just this is bad propaganda , this movie make a mockery of history , a mockery of economics . I know it is going to be all over country . I 'm kind of curious who 's behind it . @!PARKER : There are many things that are misleading @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ concern and , you know , certainly in conservative circles that the government is expanding at too rapid a rate , we 're spending beyond our means , et cetera , et cetera , we know the arguments . What I 'm more interested in is the fact that the conservative side of the aisle has finally caught up a little bit with Hollywood . This is essentially the mirror image of Michael Moore , it 's not maybe as family ... @!SPITZER : As vitriolic. @!PARKER : Yeah , exactly . Well , there 's that . @!SPITZER : Well , we saw pieces of . It is cartoonish , quite had literally . Cartoon characters mixed in with real interviews . But , what bothers me , you 're right , this is the conservative response to what frankly Democrats in Hollywood have done very well , which is to use film as a medium to make a political argument . This does n't do it , though . @!PARKER : Well , you know , the Republicans and conservatives have long felt and justifiably so that Hollywood @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ No , no , no , because look . Let 's look , no matter what you say , we can all agree that most people in Hollywood tend to be more liberal , they tend to belong the Democratic Party and the evidence of this is there are conservatives out there who essentially have formed an underground community because they 're afraid to come out in the open . @!SPITZER : Kathleen , I will concede that point to you , but I 'm going to say right now that is n't what worries me or concerns me . What worries me is what happens to our economy and what I see as the argument of the Tea Party and the Republican Party is so disconnected from fact , from history , from economics that it worries me that its appeal is going to be expanded by a cartoonish film like this . Again , we do n't even know who financed it , who is behind it and I think that 's a shame . @!PARKER : Actually , did you take a valium ? I never heard @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I 'm trying to get my arms around it . @!PARKER : I have to tell you what I 'm mostly concerned about . @!SPITZER : Yeah . I 'm going to answer the question 's no , but that 's all right . @!PARKER : The left has its films and the right has their films and everybody -- to me , it is a political coagulant . And I worry that we will harden our views as we go along . This film is , you know , we know there is some historical inaccuracies in it , but it speaks to the people who want to believe this particular message and I am philosophically more attuned with the conservative view than the liberal view when it comes to these things , but I get turned off quickly when I hear words put into someone 's mouth that were not true . @!SPITZER : That 's right . For instance , this movie calls President Obama a socialist and I think that just shows ... @!PARKER : Well , Obama says basically socialism is good . @!SPITZER @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I know you make fun of the way I love numbers . The reason I love numbers is because they 're facts and I think if you drill down to facts in a real understanding of economics , then the answers that make sense , they begin to appeal to everybody and it is n't quite as simple as big government , little government . It 's a government that believes in markets , competition , the integrity out there , which requires government do some things but not others . And if we talk about it in that common sense way , not like this cartoon character film , then we can bring everybody into that one ... @!PARKER : I do n't disagree with a word you said . I know I 'm supposed to , but that was a rational statement you just made . Rare , but rational . All right , now let 's get to our " Headliner " segment . That right- wing film we have been talking about " I Want Your Money , " the director Ray Griggs stopped by for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ get Eliot to be nice to him . Fair warning . @!SPITZER : Joining us now for a headliner interview , the filmmaker of " I Want Your Money , " Ray Griggs . Thanks for coming in. @!RAY-GRIGGS-FILMMA : Thanks for having me. @!PARKER : Ray , congratulations on your release today . For a minute , just describe what the movie is for those who do n't know about it . @!GRIGGS : Actually , my film is Reaganomics versus Obamanomics . And basically it contrasts the two roads we can go down , one is the current administration or trying to go back to the conservative values and beliefs of that of Ronald Reagan . @!SPITZER : And just so it 's clear , it was -- the release was timed to come out right now before the election so you could have sort of -- make a political statement . @!GRIGGS : Absolutely . I wanted to give people proper tools to take with them on November 2 so they make wise decisions on what course to take . @!PARKER : Now , you have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ In other words , you say you 've self-financed . Is that right ? @!GRIGGS : Right . I self-financed the production end of it , where I got private investors for the P&A . Going through self-distribution , because , you know , naturally a studio would n't pick this up just because of the concerns of the liberal left in Hollywood . And you know , it was a ... @!PARKER : There is lots and lots of money being spent on advertising just this week , so you 've obviously gotten funding help from other sources . @!GRIGGS : Right , that 's the independent financer for the P&A , which is prints and advertising . But , again ... @!PARKER : Can you tell us who any of those are ? @!GRIGGS : No . I wo n't get into that . @!PARKER : Is that available anywhere . I mean , would we see that in the film credits ? No ? @!GRIGGS : No . Just because of the political nature of it , because a lot of people think , oh , well @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!PARKER : But they may well be political activists , but if you stand by the content of the film , it should n't really matter , right , if it is laid out in a way that seems factual and credible , then I would think people would be proud to put their names on it . @!GRIGGS : Well , yeah , I know . @!SPITZER : Well , one of the things , we called you earlier , because we saw the movie coming out , you did some articles , we are intrigued because it kind of stands in opposition by design to some of the other movies that have been out there that take a very different political perspective , so we called you for a copy of it and you sent back an interesting e-mail . and we appreciate your being here , but the e-mail said , do n't have my glasses on , but it said , " I did , however , provide you with video clips , " but before that , you said , " I am not releasing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ stations that generally promote a liberal view . " @!GRIGGS : Correct . @!SPITZER : Do you kind of view us as being the liberal media . I mean , we think we 're fair and open to all perspectives , but ... @!GRIGGS : Well , we 'll see how this interview pans out . @!SPITZER : Fair point . But , we just want you to be here to explain ... @!GRIGGS : And that 's why . I thought I 'd give you the benefit of the doubt and be fair . @!SPITZER : Appreciate that . @!GRIGGS : I thought I would be fair and show people , you know what , we 'll cross the line . @!SPITZER : Who do you put -- just out of curiosity , who do you put in that sort of liberal world view category other than us , I suppose ? @!GRIGGS : Every station out there . You got ABC , NBC . They have given Obama this -- they do n't hold him accountable . @!SPITZER : Can we come back to the movie . Give @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ want the viewer to have at the end of this movie ? @!GRIGGS : I would like people to go back to the conservative values and beliefs that Ronald Reagan had . @!SPITZER : And by that , you mean theoretically lower taxes and control of spending ? @!GRIGGS : Control the spending and smaller government . @ ! RONALD-REAGAN-FMR : From time to time we have been tempted to believe that society has become too complex to be managed by self-rule , that government by an elite group is superior , that government for , by and of the people . @!SPITZER : Can I come at it from a slightly different perspective . Because I saw in an interview you did you said that 62 percent of the public does n't pay taxes . Is that -- am I correct in that 's what you said ? @!GRIGGS : Right . @!SPITZER : You know that 's totally wrong . @!GRIGGS : OK , why is that ? @!SPITZER : Because the -- the vast majority of people , I would say 95 percent of people pay @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ taxes , they pay all the taxes that you incur every day . When people work , there are withholding taxes to pay for Social Security system . Now , the income tax , which is only one of the many , many taxes we pay , is marginally progressive , but everybody pays the other taxes . @!GRIGGS : Right , but I was actually talking about the income tax . @!SPITZER : Well , that 's not what you said and it is a huge difference because if you look at the tax burden , what you 'll see is that people who are right in the middle pay about , you know , we have got numbers here , people who are right in the middle , the average person will pay about , you know , 14 percent of all of his or her income in taxes . @!GRIGGS : Right . @!SPITZER : Federal taxes . That ignores the state 's . And the people at the very , very top only pay 24 percent . So people in the middle are paying 14 percent @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ notch lower , about 7.5 percent . So , that 's , you know , some progressivity , but not a whole lot , right ? @!GRIGGS : Where did you ... @!SPITZER : This is ( INAUDIBLE ) from the Brookings Institute . These are numbers from the IRS and all the others . I mean , these are very ... @!PARKER : OK . Eliot , did you bring your charts and graphs here , today ? @!SPITZER : No . No. @!PARKER : I did n't think you did . Can we talk about the movie and the politics ? I know you want ... @!GRIGGS : I 'm not an economist . There is plenty of people you can get on besides me to find out about ... @!PARKER : You can find a gazillion people who agree that we -- people who work hard do n't want to hand over all their money to the government , who will then redistribute it to other people . @!SPITZER : But wait a minute . @!PARKER : But , if you 're a good capitalist , you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . I 'm a capitalist . I 'm not a foolish libertarian . And what I would say is that if you 're distributing a movie to 500 cinemas in which you call the president a socialist , you better have a foundation for that , would n't you think ? @!GRIGGS : OK . You said you 're a capitalist ? @!SPITZER : Oh , yeah . @!GRIGGS : So you -- but then why are you for government getting bigger and bigger and bigger ... @!SPITZER : I 'm for government that ensures the competition works . And unlike President Reagan and President Bush , who made deals with the big banks to permit them , to permit the very , very rich to take money from the hard working middle class , we believe ... @!PARKER : And Clinton . @!SPITZER : To a certain extent , but not as much as the others . We believe that markets have to work , which means competition , which means to be technical , competition law or antitrust law , which President Reagan and both President Bushes tried @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ who believe in competition and markets . Not the sort of gamesmanship that President Bush perpetrated . So I think before you call the president a socialist and send this movie out to 500 movie theaters with a movie whose funders you wo n't disclose to us , you should tell us what your foundation is for that . @!GRIGGS : OK . Well , let 's forget history , OK. @!SPITZER : No , we ca n't forget history . You ca n't forget history . I 'm sorry . You can't. @!GRIGGS : Just for a minute because I want to talk about what is currently going on right now , because that 's the real issue at hand . I mean , we can debate and get analysts and try to figure out how we got to this point . But the point is , today , OK , do you feel this current administration , OK , is doing a good job ? @!SPITZER : Well , I will say this , I think they have been much too cozy with Wall Street . I think @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , not smaller . Business is sitting on $1.8 trillion of cash that it is not investing because there is no demand and the lack of demand is precisely what FDR had to confront in the depression . The answer to that , and this is standard Keynesian economics , and it works , is you create demand by getting people to spend , either through a tax cut , or direct government spending . I mean , this is Econ101 , that appreciated by everybody from Alan Greenspan to Larry Summers . And so the answer is you create demand , and that 's what the Obama administration is trying to do because the Bush administration ran us over a cliff . @!PARKER : Well , and , Ray , you agree with that , correct ? @!GRIGGS : I do . And there is a lot there that we agree -- I see we are on similar terms , but just how we get there . I do believe in smaller government and I do agree in creating demand and capitalism , pursuing the American dream . But @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ business and our lives telling us how much we can make and everything else . @!PARKER : I read somewhere that in some cities , in some communities , people bought entire theaters full of seats for your film . @!GRIGGS : They have . San Diego , Kansas City , Texas . There is people already that went in and just bought entire seats of the theater to , I guess , give out tickets or you know , whatever the situation is , so there is a growing response from it . You know , the amazing thing , now we can talk about the film , the amazing thing about the film , we have 3.5 million hits on YouTube . You look up " Inside Job " or any of these other documentaries out there , " Fahrenheit 9/11 , " they do n't have that mass number of YouTube hits . So , there is a crying demand out there from the middle to -- there is an interest . It sparks an interest . @!SPITZER : I applaud you for making the movie . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ participate . It 's going to be creative , it is fun , based on what the part we saw and do n't wish you nothing but the best success . @!PARKER : How does it end ? How does it end ? @!GRIGGS : Basically I tell the people , you know , we have to make a serious difference in November . And make a sound decision and choose wisely and make sure if you choose a Republican to get in office , that they have the same conservative values and beliefs as Ronald Reagan . @!PARKER : You 're a good sport , Ray . Thanks a lot . Appreciate it . @!SPITZER : Best of luck . We really mean it . We 'll be right back . @!PARKER : Stay right there . @ ! STEPHEN-MOORE-WAL : Do you think Barack Obama 's capable of doing what Bill Clinton did so effectively after he lost that midterm election where he moved to the middle ? @!ARIANNA-HUFFINGTON : The problems we 're facing are not about left and right . The middle class is crumbling and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a right-wing issue , it is about the heart of America and that 's the problem . @!SPITZER : Now time are for " The Arena , " joining us tonight , Arianna Huffington , who is the co-founder and editor in chief of the " Huffington Post " and author of the provocative and absolutely a must- read " Third World America . " And of course , Stephen Moore , senior economics writer for the " Wall Street Journal " editorial page . Thank you both for joining us . Steve , let me begin with you . We have been discussing a movie that , you know , which is take my money , " Take Your Money , " steal somebody 's money ... It so bothered me . And in it bothered me and you 're in it . And in the move , you use the phrase fiscal child abuse to describe the trajectory we 're on as an economy . But , I want to contrast that with something you said back a couple of months ago , in February of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!SPITZER : With Google these days , who ca n't . Right ? " We should try to maintain the American model , low tax rates , keep government spending under control , that 's what led to the great prosperity of the ' 80s and ' 90s . " The problem is , what drove the prosperity of the ' 80s and ' 90s , and in fact , your choice presidents , President Reagans and President Bush left us with the hugest deficits in history . So , even this ... @!MOORE : Cleaning up ? He took a trillion dollar deficit and made it much worse . @!SPITZER : ... Reagan , on of the biggest deficit in history . @!MOORE : Yeah , but what Barack Obama should have done when he came into office is clean up the fiscal mess . And I think the reason that people are so angry is we have made it so much worse . I mean , under the president 's budget , he wants to borrow $10 trillion over the next 10 years . Eliot , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 1776 through 2005. @!SPITZER : There is a demand crisis in this nation . The demand crisis is the reason that businesses are n't investing . There is no demand , and if you do n't spend and this is Keynesian economics that worked throughout the past eight years . @!MOORE : Right , exactly . No , here 's the thing . You know , this is the line that the left makes , is that it is a demand crisis . It is n't , it 's a competitiveness crisis . We got to get serious in this country about making ourselves competitive against China , Germany , Europe , Japan . We ca n't do that with high tax rates , with ... @!HUFFINGTON : Listen , whether you call it a demand crisis or a competitive crisis , we 've got to grow the economy . And we 're not going to grow the economy with a Republican policy which basically are all about cutting taxes , including for those making over $250,000. @!MOORE : The job creators . @!HUFFINGTON : But , hold on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of people on Wall Street who moved from making things to making things up . They 're not exactly job creators , they 're not wealth creators , they 're just casino gamblers and that 's one of the problems we are facing and you need to come to terms to with that and stop defending them . And the other thing ... @!MOORE : I 'm for wealthy people . We need more wealthy people in this country . We need to make people rich . @!HUFFINGTON : you know , Ayn Rand would not be in favor of what 's happening on Wall Street , because she was in favor of wealth creators who were also producing value for their shareholders , for the stake holders , that 's what 's missing right here . And that 's what 's hurting the middle class . And on top of it , you guys have to get serious about our military spending . If you 're serious about the deficit you can not ignore the fact that we 're spending $2.8 billion a week on Afghanistan , on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . What is your excuse for that ? @!MOORE : I 'm not a military expert . @!HUFFINGTON : Oh come on . That 's such a copout. @!MOORE : I 'm not copping out , I 'm just saying . But I will say this , we can not have a functioning economic ... @!HUFFINGTON : Hold on . @!SPITZER : This is fun for me just watching you guys at it . @!MOORE : My point is , if we do n't win the war against terrorism , none of this other stuff works . @!HUFFINGTON : And you think Afghanistan ... @!MOORE : I do . @!SPITZER : How many al Qaeda members are in Afghanistan ? @!MOORE : ( INAUDIBLE ) when people are blowing up buildings and blowing up schools in the United States . @!HUFFINGTON : What does this have to do with Afghanistan where there are fewer than 100 ... @!PARKER : Steve is an economist , so let 's take him there , rather than . I saw the film , or pieces of it , it was entertain , OK @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ seems to be that the government -- we need less government regulation to no government regulation . But given what we have been through , is that a realistic approach ? @!MOORE : Well , let me just give you an example . I mean , we 've cut down on all the drilling . I just was just with Bobby Jindal , the governor of Louisiana , we 've shut down drilling in the Gulf and that means thousands of lost jobs . I think , you know , we have nearly the highest corporate tax rates in the world , I think that puts our businesses at a significant competitive disadvantage . Think about this , why do you think New York is losing jobs to states like Texas ? @!SPITZER : Let 's talk about the issue that Kathleen raised . Let 's talk about the issue that Kathleen raised , which is regulation . Let 's put aside the marginal tax rate for a minute and I think we could have a whole separate discussion about that . What Kathleen asked you , is do you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Street that Arianna described , a great line I had n't heard before , " they 're not making things , they 're making things up , " and that is exactly right , even today in terms of mortgage foreclosures , do n't we need reasoned regulation of Wall Street to ensure integrity there ? @!MOORE : Of course we do . @!SPITZER : Your editorial page opposed every case I made when I said they 're lying , they 're scheming , deceiving ... @!MOORE : Hold on . Wait a minute . I think it is just the opposite . We were the people , 10 years ago , that blew the whistle on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac . It was your friends like Barney Frank and others who said ... @!SPITZER : I said , Steve , wait one minute , I said AIG was a ... @!MOORE : We passed a financial reform legislation . @!SPITZER : Steve , when I said AIG is a scheme and is going to bring us down , you guys defended it , then you defended it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do n't understand what AIG did , so I ... @!HUFFINGTON : But you see , that 's the problem . Complexity is not a bug for Wall Street . It is a feature . You know , they 're hiding behind complexity . So the fact that it is so hard to regulate them is not an accident , it is intended . @!SPITZER : Your tax cuts extending them for the rich as Arianna said , and she opposes it , obviously , would add a trillion dollars every year to deficit . Where are you going to cut ? @!MOORE : First of all , the four years after those terrible Bush taxes for the rich we had the biggest revenue gains in the history of the United States . The way to get the economy going is to keep tax rates low . I do n't want to have America look like New York . I want America to look like Texas , which is booming right now . @!SPITZER : Oh , my goodness . Now you 're getting my heart pounding faster . @!MOORE @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ But , Steve , would you agree that the easiest way to actually get jobs at the moment would be a payroll tax holiday . Would n't that be more effective ? @!SPITZER : I would n't have a problem with that one . @!MOORE : Can we agree the next step would be to repeal Obama care ? @!HUFFINGTON : Would you agree on one other thing that even if we had full employment , we would need major infrastructure projects in this country ? @!MOORE : What are we doing in Washington for last 10 years is spending money on infrastructure . @!HUFFINGTON : You 're talking about competitiveness . How can we compete when you look at the infrastructure of China , what they 're spending at the moment to create a 21st century infrastructure , what is your concern about competitiveness ? @!MOORE : What about businesses expanding ? Sitting on a trillion dollars of cash now , they 're not spending it because they 're afraid of Washington . @!SPITZER : Let me give you a choice . Which would you rather have as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was given to Goldman Sachs , hundreds of dollars for the AIG credit default swaps they did n't deserve or you build another tunnel between New York and New Jersey . @!MOORE : Neither . Neither . We have to -- are you in favor of the trillion and a half dollar deficits every year ? @!SPITZER : No , of course not . Of course not . @!MOORE : We have to stop the spending . @!SPITZER : But , the question is how . Where would you cut ? @!MOORE : I would get rid farm subsidies , I 'd get rid of the Department of Education , I would get rid of the Department of Energy , I would get rid of the Labor Department , I would start means testing Medicare , so it does n't go -- I mean , there is something maybe we could agree on . Why are seniors getting Medicare , why we provide -- I there are so many things we could do that would ... @!SPITZER : Some are sensible . @!HUFFINGTON : On farm subsidies ? Can @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ going to Iowa soon to run for president so that 's an easy thing to agree . @!PARKER : Let me ask you a quick political question . What do you think President Obama 's plan is for November 3 ? @!MOORE : I want to hear this . @!HUFFINGTON : I think he 's planning to try to mitigate the losses if that 's what you mean . @!PARKER : Most likely . @!HUFFINGTON : To try and encourage the young people who came out in 2008 in unprecedented numbers to come out again . I think it is unlikely because they 're not going to come out just because he 's asking them . They came out because they really believed he was going to change the way Washington worked and he hasn't. @!PARKER : Well , the problem is they grew up , graduated from college and could n't find a job . @!HUFFINGTON : Well , exactly . @!PARKER : Coming up next , a Texas councilman takes a stand and puts politics aside and makes an emotional and very brave speech . You need to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @ ! UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : The school is not just for the adults who choose not to support me , this school is for the young people who might be holding the gun or the rope or the pill bottle . Give yourself a chance to see how much better life will get . @!SPITZER : Now time for " Taking a Stand . " You know , I 'm always imploring the president and just about everybody else to take a real stand for something . Well , this week a councilman in Ft . Worth , Texas , Joel Burns , did just that . @!PARKER : Burns gave a moving national speech about the harassment of gay teenagers and his own personal journey . He started with a sorrowful recap of recent suicides around the country , like the suburban Houston teen , Asher Brown . @ ! JOEL-BURNS-TEXAS- : A couple of weeks ago after being bullied at school , Asher went home , found his father 's gun and shot himself in the head . His father found Asher dead when he came home @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 'd like for you to look at his face . @!SPITZER : But then Burns switched gear and brought up his own story of grown up gay . Just a heads up , there is some strong language here . @ ! BURNS : One day when I was in the ninth grade , just starting Crowley ( ph ) High school , I was cornered after school by some older kids who roughed me up . They said that I was a faggot and that I should die and go to hell where I belonged . That erupted the fear that I had kept pushed down that what I was beginning to feel on the inside must somehow be showing on the outside . Ashamed , humiliated and confused , I went home . There must be something very wrong with me , I thought . Something I could never let my family or anyone else know . I have never told this story to anyone before tonight . Not my family , not my husband , not anyone . But the numerous suicides in recent days have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ my heart , and even though there may be some political repercussions for telling my story , this story is not just for the adults who might choose or not choose to support me . This story is for the young people who might be holding that gun tonight , or the rope or the pill bottle . @!PARKER : Echoing the recent videos made by celebrities such as Ellen DeGeneres and Tim Gunn , Burns ended his speech with comforting words addressed to teenagers . @ ! BURNS : Yes , high school was difficult . Coming out was painful , but life gets so much better for me . And I want to tell any teen who might see this , give yourself a chance to see just how much life -- how much better life will get . And it will get better . You will get out of the household that does n't accept you . You will get out of that high school and you never have to deal with those jerks again if you do n't want to . And the attitudes of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ there to see it . And to the adults , the bullying and the harassment has to stop . We can not look aside as life after life is tragically lost . @!SPITZER : You can find more about this remarkable speech by Joel Burns on our Web site CNN.com/parkerspitzer. @!PARKER : You know , some things do n't require editorial comment and this is one of those . But I do want to add one thing , which is that every community in this country needs to examine its policies on bullying . There should be zero tolerance , and every parent in this country needs to talk to their own children about being kind to their classmates . We 'll be right back . @ ! SPITZER : Can there be peace with Hamas still controlling Gaza ? @!ALAN-DERSHOWITZ-H : No , there ca n't be perfect peace . The Palestinians have marginalized themselves . They can only give peace on the West Bank . They ca n't give peace in Lebanon . They ca n't give peace in Iran . Iran is the 800-pound gorilla in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Middle East if there 's a nuclear Iran . @!SPITZER : Welcome back . Here 's a question . What do O.J. Simpson , the state of Israel and Mike Tyson have in common ? The answer , Alan Dershowitz , perhaps the most aggressive , most famous lawyer in the world defended all of them and usually -- I was going to say always , but not always , but usually won . Alan , it is great to have you here . @!DERSHOWITZ : Great . I could give a list of people what do I have in common . That would be people I taught , including you . @!SPITZER : I was going to get to that . The other name there you could add there would be Claus von Bulow. @!DERSHOWITZ : Right . @!SPITZER : And with full disclosure , I was one of those little kids . In " Reversal of Fortune , great movie if you saw it , Alan , of course , masterminded the reversal of that conviction . I was one of the little kids in the movie @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ done it without you . @!SPITZER : Yes , yes , they all say that sometimes . All right . First , cut to something interesting that I heard a rumor about , Netanyahu , the U.N. , what is this rumor , is it true ? @!DERSHOWITZ : It 's true . Prime Minister Netanyahu urged me to become Israel 's ambassador to the U.N . And reluctantly I had to turn it down . @!SPITZER : Why ? @!DERSHOWITZ : Because as an American I could n't be perceived because it is n't true as having dual loyalty . What if there was a conflict between America 's interest and Israel 's interest ? @!SPITZER : Have you ever had somebody of joint citizenship serve in the U.N. ? @!DERSHOWITZ : Not in the U.N . But , of course , the ambassador to the United States , Michael Orrin , was an American citizen . @!SPITZER : Right . @!DERSHOWITZ : He had to give up . @!SPITZER : He gave it up . @!DERSHOWITZ : I would have been the third person who was an American @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of president in Israel . @!SPITZER : Right . @!DERSHOWITZ : The second was a guy named Fisher , who was the head of the Bank of Israel . Unfortunately , I had to turn it down . I would have loved to do it . @!SPITZER : We could spend a lot of time on issues coming out of the Mideast East conference . What I want to do right now is talk about the issue of torture . You have taken some what many considered to be difficult positions on torture ? First , what is your position about torture ? @!DERSHOWITZ : I 'm against torture , but it 's going to happen . If we ever had a ticking bomb terrorist case and in my new novel -- @!SPITZER : Which we 'll get to , we 'll sell the book , right ? @!DERSHOWITZ : I have a torture scene with a ticking bomb nuclear terrorist case . @!SPITZER : You 're using parlance . @!DERSHOWITZ : If there were a terrorist who were caught and he knew that there was a nuclear bomb in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a million people , we would torture him . So - @!SPITZER : Would that be the right moral decision ? @!DERSHOWITZ : No . But if we 're going to do it , I want to make sure that we do it with accountability and visibility and not under the radar screen so I propose torture warrant . I 'm not in favor of torture . @!SPITZER : Torture warrants seems like -- @!DERSHOWITZ : I prefer torture warrants . @!SPITZER : OK , now -- @!DERSHOWITZ : Death warrants are not unusual . I do n't favor the death penalty , but I favor death warrants . @!SPITZER : We 'll get to that in a second . But come back to what I said before , I want to make sure people heard . You still think it would have been morally wrong to torture that person in the ticking time -- ticking bomb situation . @!DERSHOWITZ : It 's always morally wrong to torture , but we 're going to do it . @!SPITZER : But you 're going to do it . @!DERSHOWITZ : We @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to do it , I want to make sure there 's accountability . @!SPITZER : All right now . @!DERSHOWITZ : And visibility . @!SPITZER : Bush administration , waterboarding , they did all those things . Did Dick Cheney do what was right or wrong ? @!DERSHOWITZ : Wrong . Absolutely wrong . @!SPITZER : OK. @!DERSHOWITZ : What he did was tortured and they did tortured promiscuously . They never could have gotten a warrant . @!SPITZER : What was so special -- OK , now , you say a jurisprudence of torture . @!DERSHOWITZ : Right . @!SPITZER : What does that mean ? How would a court make that determination ? @!DERSHOWITZ : We have jurisprudence of search and seizure . We have jurisprudence of a whole range of things . Why not torture ? We have to decide it 's a high enough level of probability , a high enough level of likelihood , last resort , nonlethal . And then the judiciary supervisor , they have to dirty their hands . @!SPITZER : So basically , you 're basically pushing it off to a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you can torture this person . @!DERSHOWITZ : Nothing should ever be done in a democracy that 's not done within the rule of law . If we do n't want to have torture warrants , then we should not torture . @!SPITZER : OK. @!DERSHOWITZ : But we 're going to have to -- @!SPITZER : Now , switch to death penalty . You clerked for Justice Goldberg back in the early 1960s . My recollection and I remember this from my days when I was working and doing research for you , you wrote one of the earliest memos saying to the justices of the Supreme Court the death penalty should be unconstitutional . @!DERSHOWITZ : Absolutely . @!SPITZER : You subscribe to that view ? @!DERSHOWITZ : I subscribe to the view the death penalty as administered in the United States , not as a moral issue , but the way it 's administered , poor people do n't -- only poor get executed . Primarily it 's an issue of race and gender . It 's not administered fairly . In the abstract , I can @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a constitutional matter , we do n't know how to administer it constitutionally . @!SPITZER : But we 're jumping around so quickly because time in this medium is so short . @!DERSHOWITZ : I know . @!SPITZER : Let 's talk about the Middle East for a minute . Frustration abounds everywhere because we simply have n't been able to get a breakthrough . I 'm not going to ask who 's right , who 's wrong . It 's a one dimensional question . How can it be that after this many years we ca n't figure out a compromise settlement ? @!DERSHOWITZ : We have . It was offered in 2000 and 2001 . Unfortunately because of Arafat 's untimely death , if he had died two years earlier and not rejected the offer in 2001 , we 'd be celebrating the tenth anniversary . We can get there now . All we need to do is get to the point where you agree on borders . Once you agree on borders , settlements become a secondary issue . @!SPITZER : So in that context , why @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ building settlements until we give the negotiators time to agree on borders and then you only build where the final lines are going to be drawn ? @!DERSHOWITZ : Makes a lot of sense but there should also reciprocally a freeze by the Palestinians on incitement . They should stop inciting violence . Let there be a mutual freeze . Let 's get on with the process . @!SPITZER : Can there be peace with Hamas still controlling Gaza ? @!DERSHOWITZ : No . There ca n't be perfect peace . The Palestinians have marginalized themselves . They can only give peace on the West Bank . They ca n't give peace in Lebanon . They ca n't give peace on Iran . Iran is the 800-pound gorilla in the room . There wo n't be peace in the Middle East if there 's a nuclear Iran . @!SPITZER : Is Israel going to need , feel compelled to strike Iran if they get close to that moment ? @!DERSHOWITZ : Hardest question in the world . I met with all the Air Force generals when I was in Israel @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ nobody knows . @!SPITZER : Nobody knows . Which is the way they have to keep it . @!DERSHOWITZ : Of course . @!SPITZER : You 've written a book . This is not about one of your trials . This is fiction . @!DERSHOWITZ : Fiction . My third novel . @!SPITZER : Third novel . @!DERSHOWITZ : Realities ripped from the headlines . @!SPITZER : Well , tell us about it . @!DERSHOWITZ : It 's all about peace finally comes to the Middle East . The head of the Palestinian Authority , the prime minister of Israel , the president of the United States , they 're about to shake hands and a terrorist attack kills them all . A young Jewish woman from Cambridge , based on my daughter , goes to work in the human rights program on the West Bank . She falls in love with a Palestinian . She gets into trouble . Her father has to come to rescue her , double flag operations , nuclear terrorism , twist after twist after twist , reality- based fiction . @!SPITZER : But you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!DERSHOWITZ : Absolutely . Just like I 've done in my previous books . @!SPITZER : That 's right . @!DERSHOWITZ : The main characters in my book -- @!SPITZER : ( INAUDIBLE ) for you . @!DERSHOWITZ : Right . Moral issues -- and you know , people who read it tell me it 's a page turner . The reviews have been great . And I 'm thrilled with having read it . @!SPITZER : I have one here . @!DERSHOWITZ : Yes . Well , read it and tell me one thing . @!SPITZER : Yes . @!DERSHOWITZ : You will be surprised at the end . You will never figure out who done it . @!SPITZER : All right . All right . I 'm going to hold you that . If I figure it out beforehand , I 'm going to call you . @!DERSHOWITZ : You bet . OK. @!SPITZER : Alan , great friend , honored to have you here . Thank you very much . @!DERSHOWITZ : My pleasure . Good luck on the show . @!SPITZER : We 'll be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ higher percentage of people calling themselves conservatives today than there were two or three or four years ago . If you want to make people conservative , put Democrats in power . If you want to make people more liberal , more progressive , put Republicans in power . The ultimate -- @!PARKER : It 's time now for " Our Political Party , " a provocative conversation with the kind of smart opinionated guests you 'd want to sit down to at any good party . Let 's see who 's at the table tonight . Arianna Huffington has come back with us . She is the founder and editor-in-chief of " The Huffington Post . " Steve Kornacki is a regular party boy with us . He is an editor at Salon.com. @!SPITZER : And , of course , Paulina Porizkova , also a regular here , supermodel , blogger and friend of the show . And Ed Rollins -- you know -- I do n't know if I can even top that , but he 's now a CNN political analyst for those who have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ analyst . @!ED-ROLLINS-CNN-SR : Thank you . @!PARKER : Well , we only invite beautiful women to our party , obviously . @!SPITZER : And beautiful men . I had to say it . @!PARKER : It really got to you , did n't it ? All right . The trailer is out for Sarah Palin 's " Alaska , " her new TV series on TLC . Let 's take a look . @ ! UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Sarah , are you ready . @!SARAH-PALIN-@1R@2 , : Oh , gosh , we are somewhere that people dream about . Family comes first . This has got to be that way . No boys , go upstairs . This is flipping fun . How come we ca n't just ever be satisfied with tranquility ? I 'd rather be doing this than in some stuffy old political office . I 'd rather be out here being free . @!NARRATOR : An all-new eight-week television event . Sarah Palin 's " Alaska . " @!PARKER : OK , this is a very highly produced , scripted eight-hour movie for free ad @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ where , you know , the candidates can just skip the old playbook . She 's got her Facebook page . She 's got YouTube productions and now this . @!ROLLINS : If John McCain picks the vice president , you have 98 percent name I.D . the next day if it works . This is going to be a great thing for her . She gets to be independent . She gets to be in her environment . A lot of people are going to watch the show . @!SPITZER : Why are they going to watch this ? @!ROLLINS : Because there 's a curiosity . There 's a curiosity . @!PAULINA-PORIZKOVA , : It looks like a -- lengthy , like , ( INAUDIBLE ) commercial or something to me . I mean , now supermodels can be political candidates . ARIANNA @!HUFFINGTON , THE @!HUFFINGTON POST.COM : You know , you have to give her credit by the fact that she really knows how to do social media . I mean , look at her Facebook reach . The fact that she does n't really need @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " , she can just post something on her Facebook wall ? @!SPITZER : Who 's behind her ? Nobody seems to believe and I should n't say this but that she can come up with this entire media plan . Who 's scripting this for her ? It 's brilliant . @!PARKER : Well , she has plenty of advisers . @!ROLLINS : But no serious political consultants . I mean , her husband is there . There 's a couple involved raising money . But there 's no big-name serious people . Now , obviously people have come and put this together . People put other things together , but there 's nobody saying no , you ca n't do this or yes , you should . @!SPITZER : So is this an intuitive sense of what 's going to play out there in the public if she has the sense of it ? @!ROLLINS : And she has a great trust with her husband . And so far that 's the team . @!STEVE-KORNACKI-SA : But do you realize of all the Republicans who do not currently @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ presidential nomination , only one does not currently have a contract with the FOX News Channel . That 's Mitt Romney . Every other one of them is a paid contributor to a television channel . That 's the new way of campaigning . @!HUFFINGTON : But I think what she 's doing is beyond that . @!KORNACKI : Sure . @!HUFFINGTON : You know , she has really tapped into something . @!ROLLINS : Alaska is the last frontier . And if a woman can conquer Alaska , which is the premise of this segment and having run governor , it radiates along -- @!PARKER : It 's her best setting , though . It 's her best setting and it is a beautifully done film . And she gets to be against this beautiful -- this majestic backdrop of Alaska . That 's a smart move . @!HUFFINGTON : That does n't mean she 's qualified to be president . @!PARKER : That 's right . @!PORIZKOVA : That 's the problem . @!SPITZER : We had Richard Viguerie on the show , and I do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as one of the leading lights , the creator of mass mail and the conservative movement , he said , and I do n't know if I agree with him , he said this is a center right country , politically . Is that where we are ? @!HUFFINGTON : No , it is absolutely not a center right country . @!SPITZER : Where are we ? @!HUFFINGTON : Where we are is in a huge new game . And we just have been around the country promoting my new book on " Third World America " and , you know , a lot of people -- @!SPITZER : Let 's say it , " Third World America . " @!HUFFINGTON : " Third World America . " @!SPITZER : All right . You should read it . @!HUFFINGTON : And you know what , a lot of people are deeply anxious , not just the people who have lost jobs and have lost homes , but the people whose relatives have lost jobs , whose kids are graduating from college and ca n't get jobs . So what we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of reset our values , see where the future is. @!SPITZER : You 're saying we do n't fit on that spectrum at all . @!HUFFINGTON : No , we do n't fit on the spectrum at all . I think it 's the people who are stuck in the New York , Washington axis who want to sort of portray everything as a left-right issue . @!ROLLINS : The problem with people in the middle , and you 're going to see this after this election , you have to be on the left or the right to get elected and you 're basically wiped out if you 're in the middle . @!KORNACKI : I feel like this country , if you want to try to define it ideologically , it feels center right right now . And I think that 's a function of having Democrats run the White House and run both chambers of Congress . I think that the one way to move -- you have polls that show there 's a higher percentage of people calling themselves conservatives today than there were two , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ make people conservative , put Democrats in power . If you want to make people more liberal , more progressive , put Republicans in power . The ultimate example of this is when we had a true , pure Republican Congress in 1995 that tried to do true , pure conservative things . They forced a showdown with the president of the United States over cuts in Medicare . The president said no and the country backed him on after putting that Congress in power . @!PARKER : I think a lot of times it 's some people saying I 'm not that . Whatever that is , I 'm not that . @!SPITZER : I think the public is waiting for a complete redefinition of what this means . There 's so many cross currents . Somebody is going to stand up and capture the imagination the way Barack did when he was running . He 's lost it . Somebody will do it and redefine these polls and what all these numbers mean anyway . @!PARKER : This is the most agreeable party we 've ever had . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ We have a party every night on " @!PARKER @!SPITZER. " @!SPITZER : We 'll be right back . @!ISHA-SESAY-CNN-CO : I 'm Isha Sesay. " @!PARKER @!SPITZER " continues in a moment . First , the latest . Pro-Publica reports the FBI was warned about one of the process in the Mumbai attacks three years before it happened . According to the report , the man 's wife told the FBI he was a member of the terrorist group Lashkar-e-Taiba and trained extensively in its Pakistani camps . CNN continues to work the story . A senior administration official tells us , quote , " This is n't the whole story and there are sources and methods to be protected " . Mexico has temporarily suspended the search for David Hartley . His wife claims he was shot to death while they were jet skiing on the Mexican side of Falcon Lake . And all but two of the rescued Chilean miners are out of the hospital . Do n't miss " Countdown to Rescue , " an " AC 360 " special report on the miners at 10:00 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ back to " @!PARKER @!SPITZER. " @!PARKER : Before we go , a quick postscript . There 's a few more weeks until the election , a few more days before we see the last of the political ads and the yard signs and the bumper stickers and the billboards . I must say , I 'm not going to miss them , Eliot . @!SPITZER : Oh , come on , Kathleen . It 's part of the American landscape . It is democracy . A little bit messy sometimes but I love every bit of it . @!PARKER : Well , here 's one billboard that probably wo n't go away . It says , " Mr. President , I need a freakin job . " @!SPITZER : You know what ? I hope the president did n't see that one driving by in the limo . Not going to improve his spirits one little bit . Anyway , there it is . Thanks so much for being with us . Have a great weekend . @!PARKER : Please join us on Monday . Good night from New @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ .

@@4082341 BRET @!BAIER , FOX NEWS ANCHOR : Congress returns for its lame duck session with expiring tax cuts , the number one issue . Charlie Rangel faces a congressional ethics hearing but not for long . His is among the most popular names in the Republican presidential pool . An in-depth look at Mitt Romney and a possible second presidential run . Live from our studio in Washington , this is SPECIAL REPORT . Good evening . I 'm Bret Baier . The activity level has risen significantly here in Washington with the return of Congress for its lame duck session and the influx of next year 's freshman class . But productivity remains to be seen . Chief political correspondent Carl Cameron looks at people and perspectives , old and new , starting with an attitude adjustment from the Senate 's top Republican . @!CARL-CAMERON-FOX- : Day one on Capitol Hill in the wake of the GOP 's 2010 midterm gains and Republican Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell says he 's listening . He publicly reversed years of opposition to now support a proposed two-year moratorium on so-called earmarks. @!MITCH-MCCONNELL-@1 : Banning earmarks is another small but @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we 're serious . Another step on the way to serious and sustained cuts and spending and to debt . @!CAMERON : The White House on " FOX News Sunday " signaled support for ending earmarks ; those shady spending projects that bypass committees but end up hidden in bills without most lawmakers even being aware of them . @!DAVID-AXELROD-OBA : We are pleased with the movement toward doing away with these earmarks. @!CAMERON : For McConnell , embracing an earmark ban marked the political shift and a political nod for the fiscally conservative Tea Party candidates like Marco Rubio and Rand Paul , and a nod to their newfound influence . @!MCCONNELL : The American people sure have chosen outstanding members to join the United States Senate . @!CAMERON : A pair of Democrats who won special elections were sworn in immediately by the vice president . Delaware 's Chris Coons coasted to win Joe Biden 's old seat . Joe Manchin barely won West Virginia 's open seat in what was otherwise a historic GOP year . On the House Side , Republican Congresswoman Michele Bachmann , founder @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Carolina Senator Jim DeMint who recruited some of their winners , welcomed House newcomers . @!MICHELE-BACHMANN-@ : There will be a new sheriff in town and this sheriff is going to listen to the American people . @!CAMERON : Tea Party-backed winners helped make the GOP freshman class one of the biggest ever . Half of new members have no prior experience in elected office on their resumes , but lots on their to-do lists . @!FRANK-GUINTA-@1R@2 : We will make sure that we cut borrowing , that we cut spending , that we cut taxes , that we make sure we get rid of Obamacare. @!CAMERON : But if the White House is signaling a willingness to compromise , Nancy Pelosi appears less so . The liberal , soon to be former House speaker , is ignoring e-mails , conversations and at least two group letters from moderate Democrats urging her to step down as Democratic leader in the wake of the Democrats 2010 defeat . Democrat Heath Shuler of North Carolina , one of the fiscally moderate so-called Blue Dogs , said he would challenge Pelosi for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the votes locked up in advance of Wednesday 's leadership election . @!CAMERON : Pelosi wants to keep the same leadership team that she had in the majority now that she 's in the minority . The problem is when you lose the gavel you are also supposed to lose some seats at the leadership table . So she 's going to have to create a new one . And for South Carolina Democrat Jim Clyburn , she began this weekend referring to him as the assistant leader . Clyburn had been the top vote-counter , the whip in the Senate and the House majority . That job now technically goes to Steny Hoyer because of seniority . So Pelosi 's reference to Clyburn now as the assistant leader leaves some questions about the struggle for power between those two . Technically , Clyburn will answer only to Pelosi and in the words of one senior aide , it may be a little bit of Darwinian survival of the fittest to see who prevails in this new leadership structure -- Bret. @!BAIER : Carl , where does this ban @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 'll be a meeting tomorrow on the Republicans behind closed doors where they 'll take an informal vote on their support for this proposed two-year moratorium . After that , it 's an open question . Late this afternoon , Oklahoma Senator James Inhofe took to the floor of the Senate with a warning for Republicans , making the case that depending on how earmarks are defined and how this all plays out , it 's entirely possible that Republicans could see an Obama-type budget pass and not have the old type of legislative tools to hold it under control . They could be stuck with it without the ability to throw in some of those earmarks. @!BAIER : All right , Carl . Much more on this with the panel . Thank you . One issue both sides agree must be addressed , expiring tax cuts . Basically , a giant tax increase the first of the new year . But White House correspondent Mike Emanuel reports there is still a big gap between parties on exactly what should be done . @!MIKE-EMANUEL-FOX- : Aboard Air Force One @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Obama reiterated his argument against extending the Bush tax cuts for higher income Americans . @!BARACK-OBAMA-PRES : It wo n't significantly boost the economy , and it 's hugely expensive . @!EMANUEL : Earlier , his senior adviser David Axelrod spoke about what the White House wants the lame duck Congress to do about the tax cuts . @!DAVID-AXELROD-OBA : We have to extend these middle class tax cuts . Absolutely we have to do that . We should do that permanently , give people the security of knowing that their taxes are n't going to go up . That will be important for the middle class and important for the country . @!EMANUEL : Republicans continue making the case it is not an actual tax cut , it is maintaining the current tax rate during a weak recovery . Senator Jim DeMint hinted to Chris Wallace about a potential compromise . @!JIM-DEMINT-@1R@2- : I hope we can get a permanent extension . But if the president wants to compromise on a two or three-year extension , what 's important here , Chris , is that businesses know what their @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ years so they can plan growth and plan to add people . @!EMANUEL : Senator Chuck Schumer continues to float a possible Democratic compromise by putting a salary cap on who would benefit . @!CHUCK-SCHUMER-@1D@ : What if we move it up to a million dollars . Everyone below $1 million will get a tax cut , but the millionaires and billionaires wo n't . And the plan I proposed would encompass virtually all small businesses . @!EMANUEL : Some experts suggest another potential deal could be extending all of the Bush tax cuts for a year , in exchange for an extension of unemployment benefits . Or perhaps a continuation of the Bush tax cuts in exchange for an early one year patch of the alternative minimum tax or AMT. @!SCOTT-HODGE-THE-T : Congress is certainly going to have to deal with the AMT . This is expired and about to hit about 20 to 24 million taxpayers . So they have to do something . And it sounds like a pretty reasonable tradeoff for a one or two-year extension of the Bush tax cuts . @!EMANUEL : There @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the president may be interested in cutting a deal , Democrats particularly in the House may not be in the mood after the midterm election . If that is the case , taxes go up in the new year and this becomes item number one on the agenda when Republicans take control of the House -- Bret. @!BAIER : Mike Emanuel live on the North Lawn . Mike , thank you . Retail sales increased by 1.2 percent in October . Double what was expected and the largest amount in seven months . Stocks began the week mixed . The Dow gained 9 1/3 . The S&P 500 gave back 1 1/2 . The Nasdaq dropped 4 1/3 . Money is at the root of the House ethics hearing for veteran New York Democratic Congressman Charlie Rangel . From filing taxes late to using House stationery for fundraising , Rangel admits the facts but denies intent . Correspondent Molly Henneberg reports today 's hearing got underway with money again taking center stage . @!MOLLY-HENNEBERG-F : Embattled New York Democratic Congressman Charlie Rangel told the House Ethics Committee today he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ all due respect , since I do n't have counsel to advise me , I 'm going to have to excuse myself from this proceeding . @!HENNEBERG : With that , he left . Telling the committee his former legal team dropped him this fall , doubtful that he 'd be able to pay his future legal bills and insisted he has n't had time to raise money to get a new lawyer . He asked the committee to delay his trial . @!RANGEL : All I 'm doing is asking for the opportunity to have counsel . @!HENNEBERG : But the Democratic chairwoman of the ethics committee was n't buying Rangel 's not enough time argument . @!ZOE-LOFGREN-@1D-CA : Mr. Rangel 's counsel withdrew a little over a month ago and further counsel has not been retained . @!HENNEBERG : She said the trial would continue . @!LOFGREN : We recognize that Mr. Rangel has indicated that he does not intend to participate and it is his right not to participate . @!HENNEBERG : The 13 ethics charges against Rangel include failure to report income on a vacation home @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as a campaign office . Rangel has long maintained his innocence . But today , the four Democrats and four Republicans on the panel announced they were in agreement on the facts presented in the case and were going into a closed session to determine if Rangel is guilty on any of the counts . Rangel was not pleased . @!RANGEL : Yes , I saw it on television . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Have you been following it ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL : And what do you think about that ? @!RANGEL : They do n't have any thoughts . @!HENNEBERG : Is that fair without you having a lawyer , sir ? @!RANGEL : I 'm upset . @!HENNEBERG : If he 's found guilty on any of the counts , the full ethics committee would need to recommend a punishment . Meanwhile , there 's also a report today from the " New York Post , " owned by the parent company of FOX News Channel , that Rangel also may be in violation of House rules for using money from his political action committee to pay some of his @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it is n't true -- Bret. @!BAIER : Molly , thank you . Alaska Republican Senate nominee Joe Miller says he wo n't challenge the results of the election if the math does not add up for his campaign . Officials are counting write-in votes in the race between Miller and write-in candidate Lisa Murkowski , the Republican incumbent . So far , she has just under 79,000 votes counted . Miller 's total as of Friday was around 87,500 . Thousands of absentee and questioned ballots are also waiting to be counted . Two more candidates have declared for the Chicago mayor 's race . Congressman Danny Davis and state Senator James Meeks bring the field to five so far . That includes , of course , former White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel who made his announcement Saturday . Former Senator Carol Moseley Braun is expected to declare soon . A very famous Democrat makes a big cameo . We will fill in the blanks in " The Grapevine . " And up next , some strange signals from Afghanistan . @!BAIER : A judge has refused @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ accused in the 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in Africa . The motion was filed after one of the jurors asked to be removed . Ahmed Ghailani has been charged with 285 counts relating to the attacks in Kenya and Tanzania that killed 224 people . The judge denied the juror 's request and told the panel to continue deliberating . This case is seen as a key test of the administration 's plan to try terror suspects in civilian court . The hearing to determine if the suspected Fort Hood shooter should stand trial ended today with defense lawyers presenting no evidence . Major Nidal Hasan said he did not wish to make a statement . He faces 13 counts of premeditated murder and 32 of attempted murder . Fort Hood 's commanding general will make the call about a trial . The Justice Department is offering up to $20,000 for information regarding the shootings at several military related buildings here in the Washington area . The shooter has taken nighttime shots at the Pentagon , two Marine Corps facilities and a Coast Guard recruiting office . In international @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ off in its efforts against the Taliban . Reporter Conor Powell is in Kabul with the diplomatic fallout. @!CONOR-POWELL-FOX- : And what is becoming a regular occurrence , Afghan President Hamid Karzai once again lashed out at the current U.S. strategy in Afghanistan , telling the " Washington Post " that the time has come for the U.S. to reduce military operations in Afghanistan . He also complained that American troops need to be less intrusive in the lives of ordinary Afghans . Karzai 's comments have angered the top American commander in Afghanistan , General David Petraeus , and stunned other senior U.S. officials . @!RICHARD-HOLBROOKE , : Some of the things he objected to are things which are being done at this time necessarily to support his government . And I think that has to be understood . @!POWELL : Karzai is also insisting U.S. troops end night raids on the homes of suspected Taliban insurgents . The raids are deeply unpopular in Afghanistan , but militarily effective . @!HILLARY-CLINTON-S : We believe that the use of intelligence-driven precision-targeted operations against high value insurgents and their networks @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . And these operations are conducted in full partnership with the government of Afghanistan . @!POWELL : General Petraeus is said to have expressed astonishment and disappointment with Karzai 's critical words , adding that they undermine the war effort . A spokesman for Karzai said today , the president was not criticizing the current U.S. policy in Afghanistan but the surge strategy designed by General Petraeus specifically calls for U.S. troops to be visible and out among the Afghan people . The current crisis comes as General Petraeus is trying to convince skeptical Americans and the White House that the surge is working and should be given more time to succeed . : On Friday , President Obama and other NATO leaders will gather in Portugal to discuss ending security responsibility to the Afghan security forces next summer . But the bigger question going forward for President Obama and General Petraeus is do they have a credible partner in Afghan President Hamid Karzai to handle the transition . In Kabul , Conor Powell , FOX News . @!BAIER : Israel may be allowed to finish hundreds of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ U.S. drafted deal to halt new construction for the sake of peace talks with the Palestinians . The U.S. is said to be offering an incentive of 20 stealth jet fighters capable of reaching Iran . Iran 's foreign minister says talks are continuing about a resumption in negotiations over his country 's nuclear program . The west is pushing Tehran to open all of its nuclear facilities to inspection and give up uranium enrichment . Still ahead , why are you picking up the bill for all those foreclosures ? And next , he wants the election to be about economics and not health care . Mitt Romney , the next focus of our " 20 in 2012 " series . @!BAIER : Former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney is usually one of the first people mentioned in the discussion about possible 2012 presidential candidates . But along with many positives , Romney may be burdened by an issue that has already proven to be a rallying cry against Democrats and President Obama. @!MITT-ROMNEY-@1R@2 , : Thank you . Wow . This is a welcome to the Nancy Pelosi-Harry @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ primary runs to form , Mitt Romney might be the favorite to win . In 2008 , Romney was running second before dropping out when it became clear John McCain would be the nominee . @!LARRY-SABATO-UNIV : Mitt Romney is absolutely certain to run . Of all the candidates , he is the most certain to run . @!BAIER : And he has Republican presidential politics in his blood . His father George , an auto executive , was governor of Michigan who ran for president in 1968 , but lost to Richard Nixon . After amassing a reported $200 million fortune on Wall Street , Mitt in 1994 , unsuccessfully challenged Massachusetts incumbent Senator Ted Kennedy . In 1999 , Romney took over a scandal-plagued Salt Lake City Olympic Committee and turned the 2002 Winter Games into commercial success . The next year he ran for Massachusetts governor and won . His signature achievement as governor , legislation that extended health care coverage to everyone in Massachusetts by employing an array of financial carrots and sticks , such as tax penalties if you did n't buy insurance . Romney @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ran for president in 2008. @!ROMNEY : Getting our free market finally able to allow all of our citizens to have insurance , health insurance , that 's something we did in Massachusetts . @!BAIER : But it 's turned out to be more and more expensive and less and less popular as the years have passed . When the passage of Obamacare caused a nationwide uproar in 2010 , Romney Care appears to have become Mitt Romney 's biggest liability among Republican voters . @!SEAN-HANNITY-HOST : I asked you specifically about the health care that you brought to Massachusetts . And obviously the country has rejected Obamacare , nationalized health care , socialized medicine . You 've made a very strong defense that there was no similarity in your mind and that there were great differences . What are those differences in the health care ? @!ROMNEY : Our bill was a state solution to a state problem within the rights of the constitution . Obamacare is a federal intrusion of power taking over the rights of states and the rights of families , the rights of doctors . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for that reason , I think it needs to be repealed and we need to do a better job to get health care reform in a way that makes it work more like a market . @!BAIER : Romney refused to sit down with me for this series , but he has appeared on a number of FOX News programs . Bill O'Reilly also hit him on health care . @!BILL-O'REILLY-HOS : Massachusetts has the highest per capita health care cost in the union -- @!ROMNEY : Yes . O'REILLY : -- in the nation . @!ROMNEY : And it did before the bill was passed , too . O'REILLY : Is n't this what would bring the cost down ? @!ROMNEY : No . What the bill did -- O'REILLY : No , it 's not ? @!ROMNEY : No , what the bill did was to say look , we 're going to solve a problem at the state level . Two big things that are very different than Obamacare . One is , states should be able to solve state problems . The federal government should not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ right of states . We solved our problem at a bipartisan basis . We also had the business community , the health care community come together . @!BAIER : Romney would much rather talk about something else . @!ROMNEY : We 're going to make the changes necessary to maintain the spirit of entrepreneurship and innovation and creativity . @!BAIER : His plan to turn around the economy . @!SABATO : Romney 's greatest strength is economics . If we 're still having severe economic dislocation in 2012 , Romney can sell his background as a businessman , as savior of the Olympics , as governor of Massachusetts . He fits the bill . @!BAIER : One wonders if Romney would have defeated McCain in 2008 if the financial crisis hit a couple of months before the primaries ended rather than a couple of months after . @!ROMNEY : I want to make it very clear that I 'm not going to raise taxes . As governor of Massachusetts , I made it very clear there and I did not raise taxes . We faced a huge budget gap and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ know some people want to raise taxes but that 's going to hurt working families and scare away jobs . I recognized that raising taxes could also lead to a slowdown in our economy and so we did n't do it . We balanced our budget . And that 's exactly what I 'll do with the federal government . @!BAIER : He is also a Mormon . It was thought his religion might hurt him with voters . Not true according to the polls . @!SABATO : Mormonism is not going to stop Mitt Romney from being president . @!BAIER : What could hurt him with conservative voters is his position on abortion . @!ROMNEY : I 've always been personally pro-life . I 've taught that to others . It 's been part of my faith . The question for me was what should government do in this kind of setting ? @!BAIER : As an adult , Romney has changed his position on abortion , not once but twice . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Republicans did n't see him as authentic . They did n't know , you know @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Is he a moderate ? @!ROMNEY : My friend , your senator , Marco Rubio. @!BAIER : Which brings us to Romney 's relationship with the Tea Party movement . He did endorse Marco Rubio of Florida . But unlike potential 2012 rivals Sarah Palin and South Carolina Senator Jim DeMint , Romney did not jump in early to endorse anti-establishment candidates such as Christine O'Donnell or Sharron Angle . Unlike many Washington Republicans , he did not gripe when those Tea Party candidates won their primaries . Instead , he wrote them big checks . @!ROMNEY : Right now , I want to make sure we 're using all of our energy and all of our breath focused on getting Republicans elected tomorrow . @!BAIER : Most believe Romney was trying to play it just right for a 2012 run . @!ROMNEY : We have n't made our mind up as to even what the process will be or when we 'll make our final decision . But I do n't think it 's anytime immediately coming down the track . It 's the energy and passion that 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ going all over America that says you know what ? We 're going to keep the American dream alive and well . @!BAIER : Our " 12 in 2012 " series continues Tuesday with former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin . Bill Clinton and another hangover ? It 's not what you think . We 'll explain in " The Grapevine . " And guess whose fault it is that Republicans dominated the midterms . We 'll tell you . @!BAIER : And now some fresh pickings from the " Political Grapevine . " Two well-known liberal commentators are blaming Americans in general and whites in particular for the Democratic falloff in the midterm elections . HBO host Bill Maher made a canine comparison , saying , quote , " America is like a dog . I 'm sorry , but it is . It can not understand actual words . It understands inflection , it understands fear , but you ca n't actually explain issues to a dog . " Filmmaker Michael Moore said , quote , " White America does not like having a black president . That @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ interview , Moore had advice for President Obama , saying , quote , " The conservative Democrats , the majority of them were booted out . The liberals won . President Obama should take this country in the progressive direction he was elected to take it in . " The upcoming sequel to the hit movie " The Hangover " got the presidential treatment over the weekend . Celebrity website TMZ reports former President Bill Clinton , seen here leaving the set , shot a cameo for the flick while visiting Bangkok , Thailand . Mr. Clinton 's office did not respond to our requests for comment . And finally today was not just the normal day , a school day for 13-year-old Cody Alicia . The northern California boy , I should say , who was told he could n't in school with an American flag on his bike gained national attention for the controversy . @ ! UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : This is the United States . When they asked me to take the flag down , I was kind of upset . @!BAIER : Veterans and others all @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . So this morning , as you can see , dozens of motorcycles showed up to accompany Cody to school with American flags flying everywhere , including the back of his bike . Executives from major lenders will be on Capitol Hill this week to talk about foreclosures , whether they have been handling properly and how to keep borrowers in their homes . Chief Washington correspondent Jim Angle reports every taxpayer has a stake in the outcome whether you know it or not . @!JIM-ANGLE-FOX-NEW : When you see a foreclosure sign , chances are good that you as a taxpayer are on the hook for the cost involved because Congress has its own money pit , federal guarantees of mortgages gone bad , with official estimates putting the tab at more than $300 billion . @!DAVID-JOHN-HERITA : And it 's probably likely to be closer to $500 billion by the time all of this is finished . And you and I get to pay that . @!ANGLE : One reason the cost is so high is two agencies now controlled by the federal government managed lion 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and Freddie Mac own or guarantee a little over half the mortgages in this country . @!ANGLE : And their role is getting bigger , not smaller . @!PETER-WALLISON-AM : They are buying 90 percent of all the loans made in the United States , all the home loans made in the United States today . @!ANGLE : Fannie and Freddie , as they 're known , now holds up 240,000 foreclosures , which means additional costs . @!WALLISON : They have to be kept sealed during the winter . They have to be protected against vandalism and so forth . @!JOHN : The house is abandoned and sitting there just waiting for someone to strip it out or have kids go in and decide to see if matches really work . @!ANGLE : In fact , Fannie and Freddie has spent $2 billion in taxpayer money just this year to maintain empty homes , one of the many reason a key official says that foreclosure are justified , they should go forward so the homes can be sold . @!DEMARCO : If we delay the foreclosure it will add @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of Fannie and Freddie , I 'm charged to minimize the taxpayer losses , and we 're working very hard to do that . @!WALLISON : They will never recover the total amount they 're owed . But the longer we do not foreclose , the worse their losses are going to be . @!ANGLE : With all of that on the table , President Obama has nominated a new person to run the agency , Joseph A. Smith . And his previous positions may make the job even harder . @!JOHN : We do n't know quite what he is going to do , but we do know he has been active in trying to slow down foreclosures in North Carolina . @!ANGLE-@1on-camera@ : But that could slow down the process of working through bad loans and getting qualified buyers into those homes . The slower the process , the more it costs the government , meaning the more it costs you , the taxpayer . In Washington , Jim Angle , FOX News . @!BAIER : This just in to FOX News . North Carolina Democratic Congressman @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ position of House minority leader in the next Congress . Pelosi will lose her current spot as House speaker , of course , once Republicans take control . Shuler says Democrats will have better chance to regain some seats they lost in the midterms if Pelosi is not the leader in 2012 . Shuler is saying he 's making good on campaign promise that he would challenge her if she was seeking the minority leader position . Congress is back , and there is already a big change . We 'll talk about the lame duck session with the FOX all-stars when we come back . '

@@4082441 The Senate approved President Obamas tax plan today , sending it on to the House for final approval , but President Obama appears a bit worried that it may not pass now that the new opposition is springing up from the right . Right before the holidays , a number of celebrity couples have called it quits : Scarlett Johansson and Ryan Reynolds announce their divorce after two years of marriage ; Michael C. Hall , who plays Dexter , and Jennifer Carpenter , whos on the show with him got divorced ; and Zac Efron and Vanessa Hudgens also split up . Once upon a time doctors told the 400- pound Patrick House he was a ticking time bomb with only five years to live ; on last nights season finale of " The Biggest Loser " he proved to himself and obese people everywhere that you can lose the weight and turn your life around . @!JOY-BEHAR-HLN-HOS : " Time " magazine named Mark Zuckerberg their " Person of the Year " . By the way , I finished 83rd , right behind ex-flight attendant Steven Slater and the smoking baby . Take that , Mrs. Shendel @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ up on THE JOY @!BEHAR SHOW , its the holiday season of Hollywood splits . The recent rash of celebrity break-ups begs the question what is it about the holidays that pushes relationships to the brink ? And infamous Facebook founder , Mark Zuckerberg is named " Times " " Person of the Year " . Joy , will take a look at who got snuffed . Plus , the new winner of " " The Biggest Loser " " Patrick House is here to talk about last nights victory and keeping the weight off over the holidays . That and more starting right now . @!BEHAR : Right before the holidays , a number of celebrity couples have called it quits . Scarlett Johansson and Ryan Reynolds announce their divorce after two years of marriage . Michael C. Hall , who plays Dexter , and Jennifer Carpenter , whos on the show with him , they got divorced . And Zac Efron and Vanessa Hudgens also split up . Someone please tell me that things are ok between Siegfried and Roy . Now lots of Americans will call it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Here now to talk about this are Mary Jo Eustace , author of " Divorce Sucks " . Her ex-husband , Dean McDermott , married Tori Spelling . Remember that everybody . Bradley Jacobs , senior editor of " Us Weekly " is here and clinical psychologist and life coach for " Shape " magazine , Belisa Vranich . Bradley , what do you know about these break-ups ? Come on . @!BRADLEY-JACOBS-SE : Well , lets talk about Ryan and Scarlett first because that was a big story for " Us Weekly " . This week we broke it . This was in the works for months . Scarlett was very unhappy . She was the one who pushed for the separation . They were very different people , you know . Ryan Reynolds is a person who likes to write poetry for his girlfriends , whereas Scarlett was a really realist . She grew up here in New York City . She has publicly questioned whether monogamy is for real or not , whether its -- so they were just different . This relationship -- also , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in one marriage . As someone once said , somebody has to be the flower and somebody has to be the soil . Here you have two flowers in one marriage . It was just too difficult . @!BEHAR : The wind beneath my wings and all of that . @!JACOBS : Thats right . There was no wind . @!MARY-JO-EUSTACE-A : Exactly . @!BEHAR : Yes . Mary Jo , these couples were married . The ones I just mentioned , Scarlett and Ryan , and Michael and Jennifer , they were married for two years . Is that like the new seven-year-itch , two years ? @!EUSTACE : Well , a few things I wanted to say . About three weeks ago , I saw Ryan Reynolds in a cafe . And he s Canadian , very reserved . He looked very depressed . So I knew three weeks ago something was up . This marriage was on the rocks . I know , big tip . I sort of equate it to this way , in Hollywood , one year of marriage is like dog years -- @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ married two years in Hollywood , its like 14 years , you know . I think that its just so much harder to be married in that environment because these people are so entitled and so catered to that I think that they -- to take that into the relationship and actually have to work at something would probably be pretty challenging , I would imagine . @!BEHAR : Maybe its just because theyre all gorgeous and people are coming on to them all the time . Its like , why be with one when I can have great sex with the next one ? You know , monogamous -- what do you call it - - serial monogamy. @!EUSTACE : Serial monogamy. @!BEHAR : Well , you know , not that theyre sluts , Im not saying that . Im just saying , you know , I did it with you now for two years . Enough . Next . @!EUSTACE : Its 14 years , Joy . Its 14 years . @!JACOBS : But also , do nt forget distance . I mean these people have been @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ There are high demands on -- theres not a lot of time -- down time together . Relationships can be hard sometimes , even when youre living in the same city , living in the same house . @!BEHAR : Why do nt they learn from each other , in that case . What do you think , Belisa ? @!BELISA-VRANICH-CL : Well , I have to tell you , what Bradley said about there has to be a flower and there has to be a stem . Often people , I think celebrities tend to marry people that look good with them or just as beautiful . Not necessarily people that complement them . And I think thats what we had -- @!BEHAR : But thats who they meet . Beauties meet other beauties . Dogs meet dogs . Thats how it works . I hate to -- @!EUSTACE : But thats the universe , though , right ? Thats the university that they live in . I mean its like Joy said , its total access 24/7 . They can get anything they want at any time . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ really , if you can get the next best thing all the time ? Its very surreal. @!BEHAR : Theyre really not like the rest of the world , you know . @!JACOBS : No , no. @!BEHAR : Theyre just not . @!JACOBS : They live by different rules . Its sort of interesting that they also still have to lead by the rules of a marriage . Thats why so many of them do nt work out . @!BEHAR : Yes . @!VRANICH : And its not about dating . If you think about -- you do nt hear about people dating for the normal amounts of time or being engaged for the normal amounts of time . So really that combination of years , how it translates into different amount of dog years or cat years , thats it . @!EUSTACE : Right . @!BEHAR : Ok . Now , lets talk about the holidays because were in the middle of the holiday season and all these celebrity couples -- I mean I have a list of them from previous times . Like Reese and Jake , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Penn and Robin Wright , they filed for divorce in December 2007 . Jessica and Nick , remember those two , Thanksgiving , 2005 . What is with the holidays ? Tiger Woods and Elins big break-up fight was on Thanksgiving 2009. @!Ok-Belisa-is-ther# @!VRANICH : Absolutely . There is -- holidays are a time when you evaluate how youve done and you plan for the future . So it makes sense that right before the holidays , you start looking around . You start adding things up and say , this does nt working for me and I do nt want to fake it anymore . @!BEHAR : But these just include Easter -- what about , you know -- I mean Christmas . What about Easter , what about all the holidays ? Flag day ? @!VRANICH : No , they do nt include Easter . Flag day , no. @!JACOBS : Theres all this pressure at this time of year . Its a family and fun time . But theres also a lot of stress involved . Travel and youre seeing family members that maybe push your @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ already sort of teetering on a breakup , this time of year might push it over the edge . And I think that thats what you see . @!VRANICH : It is the tipping point . It is . Its that tipping point moment for a relationship where they have to decide , is this going to work for us or is this not going to work for us for the coming year ? So yes , youre going to see that . @!EUSTACE : Its also expectations right ? Its the expectations you have of the holiday season . But for Hollywood , maybe December is like a clearance month , you know , to get ready for the New Year and the awards ceremony . And just so many kind of ship it out and you know , you bring something new in January , right ? That makes sense . @!JACOBS : New Year , new you . @!BEHAR : Well , according it a recent study conducted by Facebook , which is not a scientific study -- but they asked a lot of people -- two @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!VRANICH : Yes . @!JACOBS : Yes . @!BEHAR : So , the holidays . Shouldnt people wait until after Christmas , especially when they have kids . I do nt think Scarlett has any children . @!JACOBS : No children there . @!BEHAR : A lot of these people do nt have children so its really all bets are off if you do nt have children and its not working out . Who really suffers ? @!VRANICH : And one of the things is -- @!EUSTACE : You should wait for your gifts though . @!BEHAR : You should wait for the gifts . @!VRANICH : I think thats part of it . Its the gifts . You do nt want to give gifts to someone youre not getting along with . So I think that theres a little practical element in there too . @!BEHAR : But also , you know , if theres a third party involved , the third party -- this is for real people now , not all these movie stars , its for us . If theres a third party involved , that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to tell -- a lot of cases like this , you have to tell the wife and kids , look , Im not coming home for Christmas because I have to be with her . Thats really lovely . @!JACOBS : Joy , there is a famous one that you did nt mention . @!EUSTACE : Thats an excellent point actually . @!JACOBS : What about when Brad Pitt and Jennifer Aniston went away for New Years , they went to a warm resort in Mexico and thats where they decided to break up and they came back and announced it ? It was famous . @!VRANICH : Good point . @!BEHAR : Jennifer Aniston -- tell me that . Tell me this again . @!JACOBS : Remember that one ? @!BEHAR : I do nt remember . Refresh my memory . @!JACOBS : He wore that famous trash T-shirt when they were walking on the beach , him and Jen . It was one of the last photographs ever taken of them . And they came out back and they announced that they were separating amicably at that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is a bad time to go away with someone when youre on the rocks because then youre alone with them . And theres no distraction . You say , oh my God , I cant believe I have to be stuck with this person . @!VRANICH : The distraction is something , but I think people choose the holidays because theyre distracted by other things that are happening so people do not focus on their relationship breaking up . Theres too many other things going on . So thats one of the reasons they may choose that . @!BEHAR : But Mary Jo , do you think if there are children involved , they should postpone it until after Christmas ? Wouldnt that be nice ? @!EUSTACE : Yes . Yes . I mean , you know , actually I think that really in consideration to your children , you shouldnt break up your marriage at Christmas . It sort of , you know , sets a precedent for every year . @!BEHAR : yes . @!EUSTACE : Actually , when my marriage imploded , it happened right before @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ telling him the night before school . I said thats not going to happen . In the real world , you have to make better decisions than that for your family . You celebrate Christmas as a family and then you ease the family into it . Its not a good time . @!BEHAR : But if you cant stand each other , how are you going to look at each other over the yuletide thing ? @!EUSTACE : Be an adult maybe . @!BEHAR : Being an adult , yes . @!EUSTACE : Yes , fake it . Were all used to faking it , lets face it . @!BEHAR : I know . What about the recession were in ? Supposedly were in a down time economically . Does nt that play into it ? I mean can people afford -- Im not talking about Scarlett now . Im not talking about Zac Efron also . Theyre kids . Maybe that was a problem . @!JACOBS : Right . That relationship ended because they met when they were 17 and 18 years old . They just grew up @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ different are you at 17 than at 22 ? Im amazed that these two lasted as long as they did . @!BEHAR : I got married when I was 22 and it lasted 16 years . Yes , it did . It can work . It did nt it work for 16 years . It only worked for a year . Thanks , everybody . @!EUSTACE : Thats the problem . @!BEHAR : We have to go . I know . Well be right back . I hope people stay together for Christmas though . It would be nice . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : Coming up a little later on the JOY @!BEHAR SHOW , Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg is named " Time " magazines " Person of the Year " . And the latest on the feud between Rush Limbaugh and Michael Moore . Now back to Joy . @!BEHAR : Once upon a time doctors told the 400-pound Patrick House he was a ticking time bomb with only five years to live . Well , this story has a happy ending because on last nights season finale of " The @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ obese people everywhere that you can lose the weight and turn your life around . And Patrick is here with me now along with Bill Germanakos -- Germanakos -- " The Biggest Loser " winner from Season 4our , and the Cheryl Forberg " The Biggest Loser " nutritionist . Welcome to the show . Patrick , congratulations . @!PATRICK-HOUSE- " TH : Thank you . I appreciate it . @!BEHAR : What does it mean to you to have lost all that weight ? @!HOUSE : Oh this means the world to me . You know , I have such a special family . My wife and my two boys , Colton is four and Caden is two . And I just know that Im going to be able to be around for them longer now and be able to play with them and not tire out after just a couple of minutes . Its just a special night for me last night . And winning " The Biggest Loser " I mean , its fantastic . @!BEHAR : Your wife must be happy too . @!HOUSE : Yes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ too . You know while I was on the ranch , she lost a little over 50 pounds . She went from a size 14 to a size 4 . So shes come a long way as well . @!BEHAR : Thats pretty good . @!HOUSE : Yes maam. @!BEHAR : And you were 400 pounds . @!HOUSE : I was , yes , maam. @!BEHAR : And but youre 62 " . @!HOUSE : Yes , maam. @!BEHAR : But how -- well , why did you get to that , do you think ? @!HOUSE : Oh you know , I played -- I played football in college at Delta State University . And I got hurt playing football . I ended up having to have back surgery for a couple of ruptured disks . And you know I ate a lot and I have a special diet to maintain that weight to playoff end of line . And unfortunately when I got hurt , you know I lost the exercise and I lost the football practice -- @!BEHAR : And just kept eating . @!HOUSE : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ over the course of four or five years , you know 20 , 25 pounds a year , here you are at over 400 pounds . @!BEHAR : Thats a lot . @!HOUSE : Yes , maam. @!BEHAR : The doctors said you were going to die . @!HOUSE : Dr. H. On the show told me that I was five years away from a major heart catastrophe . @!BEHAR : A heart attack . @!HOUSE : And thats at 28 years old . Yes , maam. @!BEHAR : So this was -- that was your wake-up call ? @!HOUSE : Thats when I -- you know you always see in the paper , you hear somebody , oh so-and-so , 33 years old , heart attack and died . But you never think it would be you . But hearing those from Dr. H. on the show , it really opened my eyes and knew that -- just how dangerous -- just how dangerous the situation was for me. @!BEHAR : Right . Theres diabetes , heart attack , cancer ; all sorts of things that could go @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ how common is this among overweight obese people that they really have to get a wakeup call . Youre going to die if you do nt lose it ? @!CHERYL-FORBERG-NU : Its -- its not unusual . And can I just say congratulations , Patrick . I -- I wasnt in L.A. to see the finale last night but Im so proud of you . @!HOUSE : Thank you . @!FORBERG : Yes and -- but Ive been with the show since the beginning , Joy . And its -- its been very common each season . I see the same symptoms over and over again . The contestants come to the show often with weight-related type 2 diabetes , high blood pressure , high cholesterol , sleep apnea , fertility issues . Its a whole slew of weight-related -- @!BEHAR : Right . @!FORBERG : -- issues . And -- but -- oh , Im sorry , go ahead . @!BEHAR : No . I was going to say , Bill , did you have those issues too ? @!BILL-GERMANAKOS- " : I did , you know thats @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , I was a collegiate athlete . I played lacrosse , I tore up my knee and you know kept eating the way I had before . And you know , I think theres a little depression in there too that we kind of -- I was -- we were taught -- I was taught on the ranch by our psychologist , that hey , listen , you know , you might be replacing your -- what made you the man before , sports and such , with food . You know , so it was explained to me that I had an addiction and it made me feel -- I was medicating with food . A lot of times the athletes who retire early or get injured have that same sense . @!BEHAR : Thats -- its interesting that youre replacing -- it was kind of like food is an addiction too . So usually people have an addiction they replace it with another addiction . Hopefully its a good addiction like exercise . @!GERMANAKOS : Well , thanks to someone like -- @!HOUSE : Like working out @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : -- someone like Ms. Forberg on the show , she taught us how to be addicted to more healthy food . @!BEHAR : Like -- how did you lose it ? Tell me how you guys lost it . What did you do ? @!HOUSE : You know , I mean , for me going home , losing on the ranch , on the ranch its a -- its a great place , you know , to start weight loss . @!BEHAR : You have help . @!HOUSE : With Bob and Jillian and youve got the help . Going home was where the real challenge for me . And you know , getting into -- coming home , I was fortunate that you know my wife had already made those changes with her taking the junk food out of the house and already starting to prepare healthy meals . I came home into a changed household . And that really helped me just propel my weight loss and continue . You know I lost 60 pounds at home . And that really helped me to get the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , do nt you think Cheryl , to have somebody helping you with the food . Because you have to prepare stuff , its very difficult . @!FORBERG : Its very difficult . Its a vertical learning curve in the beginning for most of the contestants because typically theyve had a history of skipping meals . Sometimes getting enough calories from their beverages alone to meet their daily needs because they do nt know what their calorie requirements are . Not having enough fruits and vegetables . Not drinking much water and -- and certainly not having a lot of exercise in their daily plans . So its all about finding a new learning curve and moving forward with that and implementing all the changes at home as well . @!BEHAR : Right . So -- so as a person watching at home , what would you say to them ? What should they do ? Lets say they have to lose 30 pounds . @!HOUSE : You know -- @!FORBERG : Ok. @!HOUSE : -- like I said , whether you have to lose 30 pounds or like @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ first step , you know . And -- and just changing your diet is not enough . Youll lose some weight -- especially at 400 pounds -- youll lose some weight when you change your diet . But youve got to incorporate exercise and youve got to get out there -- @!BEHAR : How much exercise , though ? Realistically , how much can a person who works a 9:00 to 5:00 job do in -- in the course of the week ? @!HOUSE : Well , youd be amazed that what you can do just by changing small things . Like when you go to the grocery store and parking at the farther parking spot and walking in . There are small things , taking the stairs when you go to work instead of the elevator . Things like that . You can get in an exercise without actually having to take yourself to a gym and work out . And those things add up , thats calories burned and weight loss is calories in , calories out . @!BEHAR : Ok , so incorporate the exercise in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ but its very hard for people to get this into their heads . Drink more water . That seems to be crucial , right , Cheryl ? The water seems to be very , very important in losing weight . @!FORBERG : Thats right . And there are a number of -- of reasons for that . One is that when were changing the eating plan here , we eat a lot of fresh fruits and vegetables , whole grain . The -- this eating plan , the distinction here is that the quality of the calories is just as important as the quantity . And when were having four cups of fruits and vegetables a day and a lot of whole grains , were increasing our fiber intake . And when you do that , you need to have a lot more water as well . @!BEHAR : Right . See , thats the thing . You have to have all these fruits and vegetables and all of this water . Somebody has to be there to give this to you if you are working all day . That @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ me ask you something , you two were unhealthy . Why did nt you just go for one of the surgeries instead of going through all of these , the gastric bypass or the banding ? @!HOUSE : You know , for me that was like the last option . And before I made " The Biggest Loser " in February of this year , I lost my job in January and February came around . That was kind of my -- I was looking at , maybe now is the time to take that step and have a lap band surgery . But fortunately for me , " The Biggest Loser " came around at the time that gave me the opportunity to lose this weight on my own . @!BEHAR : But if it did nt , would you have done it ? @!HOUSE : You know thats a decision I probably would have made with my family . Im not sure if I would have or not . At that point I was looking at my career and my family , my ( INAUDIBLE ) . You @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ go out and get a job . The interviewing process is hard . I worked in sales . And immediately when you walk in the door in a sales job , its tough when youre 400 pounds trying to sell a product . @!BEHAR : Exactly . Thats another thing . @!Ok-Were-going-to-# @ ! HOUSE : To see that your work has paid off , you know . I mean , weve all burned it up in here . The first step was seeing that number , you know , just kind of fuels the fire to just keep it going . @!HOUSE : Big guy , huh ? @!BEHAR : Im back with my panel . I did nt recognize you . @!HOUSE : Yes , maam. @!BEHAR : Its amazing how the face gets out of shape too when you gain a lot of weight like that . @!HOUSE : It is . Lets talk about the holiday season , Cheryl . Its upon us . Everywhere I go theres food now , you know . And theres hors doeuvres , which are killers . Because you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have dinner , you know . And theres booze . What are we supposed to do ? @!FORBERG : Well , I actually have a nice blog about holiday cocktails on the shows Web site , and how you to navigate that . But its important going into the holidays to not just make that assumption that Im going to it gain ten pounds or five pounds or whatever like I do every year . Its not enough to say , Im going to start January 1st . Begin today . Just start off with a little bit of exercise and gradually build up . And knowing that youre going into the holiday season with all of these indulgences everywhere around you , its really important . And if youre going to a party , for example , try to make something , prepare something or take something along thats healthy so you know there will be at least one good choice there . @!BEHAR : I see . Well , a lot of people say you shouldnt eat at the cocktail party . Make a decision to either have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ eat anything or do nt drink anything and plan the dinner , a step stiffer . What do you think about that , Cheryl ? @!FORBERG : Thats a great idea . @!BEHAR : Too stringent ? @!FORBERG : No , I think its a great idea to eat before you go and just plan on socializing . Thats what its all about anyway . @!BEHAR : Thats right . Just network and socialize . Now , Bill , youre a fitness instructor . @!GERMANAKOS : I am a group fitness guy . I do speaking engagements for health and wellness . @!BEHAR : How much does willpower play in all this ? @!GERMANAKOS : Well , as opposed to willpower , we just say , try to keep your goals in mind . People say well , how do you stay motivated ? And for me , I mean I havent hit my goals yet . My goals are to walk my two little girls down the aisle one day . My youngest is only 11 . So I still have to work towards that goal . And every @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a brownie , have something . Just have one . It will taste great . I say , its not going to be as great as -- taste as great as me walking them -- @!BEHAR : Well , I do nt understand what you mean . You could walk them down the aisle right now if they were of age . @!GERMANAKOS : If they were of age but , you know , in 20 years will I still be able to I do so ? This is why Im motivated to keep going . And you know , when people say motivated , you know , everybody gets up and brushes their teeth first thing in the morning . We get up and brush our teeth and go to the gym . Weve just changed our habits a bit now . @!BEHAR : Right . @!GERMANAKOS : And on holiday mornings , why ruin an entire month of working out just for one holiday ? Whats great is if you eat correctly and you stop drinking , people will see youre doing that , they might take the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!BEHAR : Do you have a last thing to say to the audience to encourage them ? @!HOUSE : Yes , maam . You know , Im excited with the question about the holiday eating . My first blog on my Web site is going to be about holiday eating and weight loss tips . My Web site launched last night . Its at **28;1470;TOOLONG . And Im excited about that . And just , you know , you have to get out there . You have to take that first step . Get out of your comfort zone . And you know , I mean Bill and I , were not superheroes , were just normal guys . @!BEHAR : Stop it . Youre both superheroes . And so are you Cheryl . Thanks very much for joining me tonight . Congratulations Patrick . Be sure to tune in to the new season of " The Biggest Loser " January 4th on NBC . Well be back in a minute . JOY @!BEHAR , HOST : " Time " magazine has named Facebook founder , Mark Zuckerberg its @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was on the " do nt touch my junk " guy . With me now to talk about this and other stories in the news are Rebecca Dana , senior correspondent for the Daily Beast , fashion designer , David Meister , and Tia Carrere , actress and singer who was recently nominated for her fourth Grammy . Congratulations to you , Tia . : Thank you . @!BEHAR : Rebecca , Facebook has been around for a while . @!REBECCA-DANA-SENI : It has . @!BEHAR : And the " Social Network " made him seemed like a jerk , frankly . @!DANA : Yes . I mean , not that thats autobiographical in the slightest . But yes , it made him seem like a jerk . He gives some money to the New Jersey school system . Facebook is kind of a big deal , but -- @!BEHAR : One in ten people on the planet is on Facebook . Thats pretty big . Thats probably what it was . @!DANA : Yes , its not insignificant . And I think , also , like , Julian Assange @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ph ) question is who cares ? Why does " Time " magazines Person of the Year still exist ? Like , Adolf Hitler , all right , I get it . @!DANA : Thats a man of the year , but Mark , its like why ? Its so anachronistic . Its such a bizarre -- @!BEHAR : Well , who would you -- @!DANA : I do nt . I dont. @!BEHAR : Would you have put Sarah Palin on the cover ? @!DANA : No . I think nobody . I think this is like a stupid thing to do , in the first place . @!BEHAR : Just have a blank page . Its brilliant . @!DANA : I mean , this is what " Time " magazine has been doing for the last five years . They did you which had sort of like mirrored covered . I just do nt even know why this thing exists . Why do we need to have a Person of the Year ? @!BEHAR : Well , you know , the other thing is that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ person . Charles Lindbergh was the first in 1927 . He was 25 . Do you think maybe theyre trying to go for the younger demographic , David ? @!DAVID-MEISTER-FAS : I think absolutely . You know , I think its a very safe choice as well . @!BEHAR : Who ? Zuckerberg ? @!MEISTER : Zuckerberg . Everybody knows the Facebook . The thing that I find ironic is the fact , you know , the internet is stealing so much business away from the magazines at this point . And a magazine is actually picking someone from the internet as their man of the year . I think theres something little ironic there . @!BEHAR : Why do you think they did that ? They want to get those people to read their magazine . @!MEISTER : And I think again , the younger demographic is absolutely true . @!DANA : Well , the truth about this thing is also is that theyre really just naked commercial gambits . Like , part of the reason they chose Mark Zuckerberg is because Mark Zuckerberg gave them an interview , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of people get interviews with Mark Zuckerberg . Im sure , its like , I do nt know , Gaddafi gave them an interview that was really great . Maybe , Gaddafi would be the man of the year . @!TIA-CARRERE-ACTRE : But do nt you think he really deserves being Person of the Year . I mean , he s changed the way that we communicate , for better or for worse . I mean , we have followers . We have virtual friends . I mean , we do nt even know how to communicate on a deeper level due in no small part ( INAUDIBLE ) Facebook . You know , its like the greatest hits . Its an upsizing of our lives . This is the way we approach every relationship now . @!BEHAR : Thats true . @!CARRERE : I mean , I do nt like it , but you know , my father was able to find three friends that he knew in childhood in the Philippines from Facebook , and they got together and did the three-part harmonies . @!BEHAR : Oh , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , so , it works . @!DANA : I think theres no question that Facebook has completely revolutionized the way we socialize , the way we interact , the way we live online . Im just not sure why this year as opposed to five years ago when he started -- @!BEHAR : Rebecca , only five women , individual women in all the years that theyve been doing this , which is how many years -- hundreds and hundreds of years , whatever . I do nt know how many years . Corazon Aquino , you said that youre part Filipino . @!CARRERE : Yes . @!BEHAR : And Queen Elizabeth II . General and Madam Chiang Kai-shek , but she came with the husband . Hello . And Wallis Simpson . Remember , that was the one that King Edward gave up the crown for Wallis Simpson . She must have done something really good . @!OK-Moving-on-In-re# @!DANA : I make exactly the same thing . I mean -- @!DANA : I do nt understand why these things exist . Im sorry to be such a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ mean , people -- like Sandra Bullock did a cover hoisting up her beautiful adopted child for " People " magazine . Elin Nordegren is also on their list , also gave an exclusive to " People " magazine . Like , its wonderful to celebrate these great people . And Mark Zuckerberg is a visionary , and Sandra Bullock , who does nt love Sandra Bullock ? But , you know , we might as well acknowledge whats going on here which is that everybodys scratching each other backs , which is fine . But thats what it is. @!BEHAR : Well , you know what , its all about the cheating guys . Im thinking of giving Steve Ashley Dupres number . Then , Ill be on the -- @!MEISTER : Youre in the cover ( ph ) . @!BEHAR : Yes . She was not exactly a controversial choice this year , Sandra . Everyone loves her . Shes Americas sweetheart . She happens to be a lovely person , it seems . So , its no big deal . @!CARRERE : Whats the underdog story @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ prevails against a cheating husband . I mean , country songs have been written about it . @!BEHAR : Yes . @!CARRERE : And you know , shes beyond reproach . And like you said , it is a little bit of blatant consumerism who does nt love her , whos not going to pick up the cover of this magazine . @!MEISTER : I think the one thing thats great about her is through all the press and the paparazzi and through all these horrible things , shes had a great year and shes had some sucky things . Shes never once really sunk to any low level . Shes always just gone about her life and done her thing . @!BEHAR : Right . How do you like the way she dresses , David ? @!MEISTER : Shes stunning . @!BEHAR : Shes stunning . @!MEISTER : She can go from glam to rocking . @!BEHAR : Did you like my top ? @!MEISTER : You look fabulous , and that color is great on you . @!BEHAR : OK . Thank you , David . @!BEHAR @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Hollywood seniors -- this is a good one -- Betty White and Ed Asner got rowdy during the photo shoot for the " Hollywood Reporter " . And Betty actually grabbed Ed Asners crotch . Unfortunately , he s so old , he just turned his head and coughed . @!BEHAR : OK . Now , what do you think of senior citizens acting in these ways ? Because , you know , ( INAUDIBLE ) grabbed her boobs. @!DANA : I hope when Im Betty Whites age , someones grabbing my boobs like that . @!BEHAR : What if theyre fake , and someone grabs them , and you know , theyre fake , is that the same jollies than an old guy is going to get ? I do nt know . @!MEISTER : I do nt know . At that age , theyre going to be hanging . I do nt know . @!BEHAR : No , they wont be . Everything will be hanging , but they will be perfect . @!MEISTER : Perfect . Youre right . @!CARRERE : Oh , my goodness @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ though , has nt she ? Shes ( ph ) invited that anyway . @!DANA : Yes . I think its wonderful . @!BEHAR : Im so surprised at Ed Asner , did nt you ? @!DANA : I do nt know . @!BEHAR : He later threatened Larry Hagman , another older guy , with his cane . And Hagman said , I had a colonoscopy yesterday , so I can take anything , he said . Whoa . TMI , Larry . OK . Lets do another story . In what is becoming a trend for powerful Republicans , Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell choked up during a farewell speech to retiring Senator Judd Gregg of New Hampshire . Take a look . @ ! MITCH-MCCONNELL-@ : Now , to say that I tried to convince Judd to stay is an understatement . But he knew it was his time to move on . And to write the next chapter -- next chapter in his life . When he walks out of this chamber for the last time , hell leave an enormous void behind . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : I have two words for you , Glenn Beck . These people are not stupid . And they are learning from a master populist here . I would not be surprised if all of this is orchestrated , first of all . Second of all , I wouldnt care if they were crying all the time if they were also getting something done . But instead , theyre just crying all the time . @!BEHAR : All the Republican guys are crying historically or all the Republican women are out shooting animals . Its like a role reversal . @!DANA : Yes . @!MEISTER : You know , Im all for a little man emotion , but this is crazy . Its like Senate floor , slippery when wet . I mean , of all the things we could be crying over , of all the real issues to cry over this country , the things that theyre crying over , its like come on , guys . Suck it up . @!BEHAR : But where are the Republican tears for the unemployed and uninsured ? Oh , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ same guy -- @!BEHAR : Give me a break . Emotionally unstable . I do nt think its a put-on . I think theyre really sick . Somethings wrong with them . @!CARRERE : I wonder if they have a change in the middle of life the way women do . Im wondering if theres a hormonal imbalance . @!BEHAR : I know . Well , when Glenn Beck starts to fan himself -- @!DANA : Then they have chalk boards ( ph ) , then well know for sure , but I wouldnt be surprised if this is in some measure calculated . @!BEHAR : But they cant stop . I mean , if they start to filibuster , its going to be a tsunami. @!BEHAR : I mean , can they lead in this particular emotional state ? @!DANA : Yes . I mean , can they lead in any emotional state ? @!CARRERE : Im just happy that it breaks up the monotony of C-span . Lets be honest . Youre sitting there -- its like Charlie Browns ( ph ) picture , and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Im waiting for full frontal nudity next . Thats what I want . @!BEHAR : John Boehner , lets see what youve got . Man up . What have happened to man up ? That only goes for Democrats ? @!CARRERE : Republican women , apparently . @!BEHAR : For republican women . Man up . Grow some hair on your lip . Thanks , everybody . Well be right back . @!BEHAR : The Senate approved President Obamas tax plan today , sending it on to the House for final approval , but President Obama appears a bit worried that it may not pass now that the new opposition is springing up from the right . Listen to what he said today . @ ! BARACK-OBAMA-PRES : I know there are different aspects of this plan to which members of Congress on both sides of the aisle object . Thats the nature of compromise . But we worked hard to negotiate an agreement thats a win for middle class families and win for our economy . We cant afford to let it fall victim to either delay or defeat @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is Stephanie Miller , host of the " Stephanie Miller Show " and Tara Wall , conservative commentator and contributor to the Daily Caller . OK , Tara , let me start with you . First , we saw democratic opposition . Now , it looks like the GOP are fracturing . Whats going on ? @!TARA-WALL-CONSERV : Well , I think , you know , many of those in the GOP who are essentially looking at potential runs in 2012 know this is going to be an issue that this is going to be the can thats going to be kicked down the road , if you will , on this , because 2012 is when , you know , some of this the tax relief expires . And I think theyre positioning themselves , probably , legitimately so to raise a very real issue about what happens next when the tax relief expires , when we do nt address the deficit and other very real issues that some believe have been -- are posed with this tax deal . It is a compromise . It is bipartisan . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ think there are some legitimate issues that are raised . @!BEHAR : Let me ask you , Stephanie , do you think that some of the people in the GOP are really against it now because it makes Obama look good ? @!STEPHANIE-MILLER- : Of course , yes . I mean , thats exactly it . Look , the one reason to be for it now , Joy , is that Rush Limbaugh and Sarah Palin are against it . Thats a good enough reason . But , I mean , you know , I was wondering when they were going to start to wake up to the -- you know , they just ran on reducing the deficit , but theyre fine adding tax cuts for the rich . Theyre going to add the huge vault of these deficits . Thats what theyre fighting . @!BEHAR : You know , Tara , lets get a little specific . What is the main complaint from the right on this now ? I mean , they got their beloved tax cuts on the right . What are they complaining about ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ -- I do nt believe its all the right ( ph ) . Again , you have select folks like Sarah Palin , like Mitt Romney who are running essentially . Of course , they havent announced , but you know theyre positioning themselves for positions down the line and for potential public runs . Im not saying that does nt make the arguments legitimate . I think the fact is we have very real issues with our current tax code . It is a monstrosity . And I think the conservative who rightfully raise the issue of , number one , how were going to lower the deficit . Number one , why were adding to the deficit when you talk about things like a payroll holiday , you know , when Social Security is going to be insolvent , and this increases the time in which its going to be insolvent . Those are very real issues when you talk about , you know , tax relief being temporary and going back to penalizing , if you will , those who contribute to society , whether theyre small @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ very reason alone are taxed . The fact that we have unfair corporate tax rate by President Obamas own deficit reduction commissions admissions . Those are very real issues that still have to be addressed outside of the current tax plans . @!BEHAR : Democrats are still in charge at this moment . And 59 percent of Americans support the plan . So , what are they going to do , really ? What are Romney and Sarah Palin really doing ? Stephanie , want to answer that ? @!MILLER : Well , Joy , first of all , I can tell you why they do nt like the bill because its not mean enough . You know , you have to remember , Joy , this is a party that just against health care for 9/11 responders . They voted to let -- @!MILLER : Right before Christmas . Right before Christmas . I mean , if there was a bill about slapping food out of orphans mouths , they would vote for that . If there was a bill about pushing old ladies down the stairs for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ theyre not going to grow a sense of decency in January . I think this is the best deal we can get , Joy . @!BEHAR : Tara , let me ask you . @!WALL : Attack Sarah Palin and Mitt Romney are not voting for anything because theyre not elected officials . I think they are raising the conversation , theyre raising the discussion which is very real and very legitimate . And at this point , its a moot point in regard to the fact -- @!MILLER : Right . But they do nt like because it does nt hurt poor people enough . @!WALL : Thats just -- thats rhetoric . @!MILLER : Not tax cuts for the rich . They love those . @!BEHAR : You know , Tara , you have to admit theyre concerned about the unemployment benefits going on , but to add to the deficit , but tax relief for the rich , they do nt seem to be concerned about that . She does make the point . @!WALL : Listen , the concern about the tax for the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ know , that bar has changed from one level to the next over the past two years under the current administration . @!MILLER : The average income in the United States is 44,000. $250,000 is rich . @!WALL : If you let me finish my thought . I did nt interrupt you , so let me finish my thought . I think when we talk about the wealthy , youre talking about a span of people that includes small business owners , that include black farmers , that include people who feel like theyre getting pinched out of the system . And it still does not do anything to address the very real issues that we had with our current tax code -- @!MILLER : But the senate voted down -- @!WALL : And the presidents own bipartisan commission talked about how convoluted it is. @!MILLER : Chuck Schumer put forth a compromise up to $1 million a year . Republicans voted that down . Its not enough . Nothing is enough for them . Theyve got to protect the very , very rich . @!WALL : First of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ about , pay the bulk of taxes , pay the fair share , more than the fair share of taxes in this country , over 60 percent , almost 60 percent of taxes . @!BEHAR : Tara , what do you say to people - @!WALL : I do nt think thats a fair system . I think what Republicans , what conservatives are talking about , are a fairer , more flatter system -- @!MILLER : Youre making ( ph ) the most historically low tax rates we have . @!BEHAR : Tara , stop it . @!WALL : Its your show , Joy , go ahead . @!BEHAR : Just let me ask you a question . Let me ask you a question . What do you say to people that the very , very rich , their money really does nt circulate in the country and does nt really get the economy going , whereas people who are collecting unemployment insurance put it back into the system ? People who make under $250,000 spend their money . The very rich do nt spend their money @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ say to that ? @!WALL : I say , the more you tax them , the less that theyre going to spend . I think thats part of the problem . @!BEHAR : Really ? @!WALL : Yes , really . Really . I think thats part of the problem . I think when you put a tax on someone who is contributing to society , it causes them to hold back . I think when you also feed into a system that is not fair , it is contributing -- @!WALL : Yes . That is the question . Where are the jobs ? Where are the jobs ? Where are the jobs , and why are we also rewarding those who do nt even pay into the tax system at all ? It is not a fair system . If we had a flat tax -- whats wrong with a flat tax ? Then , everybody pays their fair share . @!BEHAR : Thats not fair . @!WALL : Whats wrong with that ? @!BEHAR : A flat tax , I do nt think , is fair @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : It should be graduated because then people are jus t paying the same amount . The rich are paying the same amount as the poor . Its not really fair . @!WALL : Sure it is. @!BEHAR : The rich should pay more , do nt you think ? @!WALL : If youre making more 50 and 10 percent of 50,000 versus 10 percent of 5,000 , thats a much fairer system than the small percentage of people paying 60 percent of taxes . @!MILLER : If youre making 40 grand a year , you cant afford 25 percent . @!WALL : Its a hypothetical . @!BEHAR : We have to take a break . Well be back in a minute with more of this political panel . @!BEHAR : Im back with my political panel . Michael Moore announced yesterday that he was posting 20,000 of his own money to help bail out WikiLeaks founder , Assange , who is in custody on suspicion of rape . Well , Rush Limbaugh got wind ( ph ) of this and not so surprisingly had something to yell about . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to see a bunch of high- minded people out there on the left . You know , the no labels crowd coming out of the woodwork and pay the bail of the serial rapist , Julian Assange . Who knew that they were such fans of serial rapist out there , my friends ? Of course , they would help a thousand rapists if it would mean one America hater might go free . @!BEHAR : OK . You know , Tara , he s calling him a serial rapist . He has nt really been convicted of anything yet . Isnt he innocent until proven guilty , just asking ? @!WALL : Well , yes . He is innocent until proven guilty . @!BEHAR : OK . Well , then , what is he yelling about ? And why does he say - specifically , he goes he -- he should say he when he says , they would help a thousand rapists , it would mean that one American hater might go free . Whos they ? Who are the theys ? Id like to hear who @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ entire left wing of the country like that . Stephanie , does nt that offend you ? I find it offensive . @!MILLER : Yes . I thought it was just given were all serial rapist lovers , Joy . @!BEHAR : Yes . @!MILLER : You know , and secondly , as you said , there has nt been a trial , but you know , what the word is that his condom broke , which is whats considered a sex crime in that country . So , its hardly -- I mean , its a different kind of WikiLeak is all Im saying . Were talking about here , but , you know , I find it amazing . They want to execute this guy or maybe invade a country to get him , Joy , you know , back when they were leaking Valerie Plames identity . You know , leaking classified stuff wasnt so bad , I guess . And now , its , you know , worthy of executing someone without a trial . @!WALL : Whos the they in this case ? I mean @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : Im talking about the right wing . @!MILLER : He s not even an American citizen . Theyre saying we should invade a country that he s in . Where were you when , you know , they were leaking classified information about Valerie Plame ? @!WALL : I think that , you know , the collective obviously , you know , Rush Limbaugh is taking liberties at the collective day as he does most of the time with his show . You know , I think the appalling view here should be why Michael Moore , you know , wanted to make this obvious statement by bailing out what could be potentially a rapist , an alleged rapist . So , that is a very real issue . And if you want to talk about the " they , " where are they , the liberal feminists or any feminists from the right or the left that are out talking about how serious an issue this could be , should this man be found guilty of a very , very serious crime , and the alleged victims @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have assaulted . @!MILLER : Could have , may have or he could have been set up because he s leaking information a lot of people do nt want out there . @!WALL : He was arrested . He was in jail . And I think its a very serious issue that shouldnt be made light of . @!BEHAR : I think that Michael is probably contributing money for the freedom of information . I think thats where he s at . @!MILLER : Yes . @!BEHAR : I mean , maybe the guy is a rapist , well find out , and then , well go after him . @!BEHAR : One a time . @!WALL : What message does that send to his -- to his alleged victim ? What message does that send to his alleged victim , whatever statement -- @!WALL : About WikiLeaks or anything otherwise ? @!BEHAR : Well , I would like to know if the guy is guilty -- @!MILLER : He has nt been convicted yet . And his point is we might have avoided the Iraq war if @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of information that was true has been out there at the time . @!WALL : I think a potential rape kind of trumps that right now . @!BEHAR : OK . Got to go . Im going to go to black . Thank you very much , ladies . You were terrific . Goodnight , everybody .

@@4082541 More on shootings in Tuscan , Arizona . Dr. Murray being charged with Michael Jackson 's death . Police say the night before he pointed a gun at Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords head , Jared Loughner carefully prepared for his attack . People are using the Internet to help reconnect adopted children who are now adults with their biological roots . @!FREDRICKA-WHITFIEL : This hour , a revealing YouTube video shot by Tucson shooting suspect Jared Loughner . It 's one of the reasons his former college suspended him . In New Jersey , there 's a manhunt under way for a police killer . Authorities say the officer was shot close range while sitting in his patrol car . And the Republican National Committee tosses out Controversial Chairman Michael Steele . The new leader says his top priority is to have an organization in place to beat President Obama in 2012 . We begin this hour in Tucson , Arizona where that city is taking a step closer to trying to return to some normalcy today . The closed sign at the Safeway where Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords and 18 others were shot last week was torn down and the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ them to return to the store to get a sense that life is returning to some normalcy after the tragedy . But now , I want to show you some revealing new youtube video shot by Tucson shooting suspect Jared Loughner . In it you will see the suspect as he tapes himself walking around his former college campus . You will hear him sounding off on a number of things , including illiteracy and freedom of speech . This video when released to the " L.A. Times " after a public records request was made . It had been cited in campus police records as among the reasons college officials suspended the 22-year- old student . Take a look . @ ! JARED-LOUGHNER : All right . So we 're examining the torture of students . We are looking at students who have been tortured . Their low-income pay and two wars . The war that we are in right now is currently illegal under the constitution . What makes it illegal is the currency . The date is also wrong . It 's impossible to be that date @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Thanks for the b . I 'm pissed off . What 's that ? Soft laughing This is my genocide school . Where I 'm going to be homeless , because the school . And here 's the cafeteria , where I make transactions . This is Pima Community College one of the biggest scams in America . The students are so illiterate , it affects their daily lives . Here 's the best part , the book store , the book store , the book store , the book store . It is so illegal to sell this book under the constitution . We are also censored by our freedom of speech . They 're controlling the grammar . They control the grammar . This is the police station . This is where the whole shboozie goes down with illegal activity . If the student is unable to OK the external universe , then the student is unable to locate the internal universe . Where is all my subjects ? I could say something right now , but I do n't feel like it . All the teachers that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ authority over the Constitution of the United States under the First Amendment . This is genocide in America . Thank you . This is Jared from Pima College . @!WHITFIELD : So you 're hearing the voice there of the Tucson shooting suspect Jared Loughner , and he apparently shot that material himself . The " L.A. Times " first was able to receive that video and now we have one to show you as much of it as possible , because coming up next hour , we 're going to talk to one of the country 's leading criminologist about this tape and what it could mean for Loughner 's defense . Arizona Congresswoman Giffords is getting better ; she remains in critical condition after being shot in the head . The doctors say Giffords is quote carrying out a more complex sequence of activity , meaning when they ask her to move her arms or legs she actually is able to do that . Part of Giffords skull was removed to allow for swelling . That portion will remain off for a while and she is breathing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ victims from the Tucson tragedy are still being hospitalized but they are improving as well . Doctors say all three are in good condition . Another shooting victim is being honored today in Tucson . Friends and family members are expected to pay their respects at a memorial service for Phyllis Schneck ; the gathering for the 79-year-old woman is scheduled to begin in about an hour from now . What happened in the last hour before the Arizona shooting ? We 're getting a clearer picture of the suspect , Jared Loughner . We retraced his steps , and Michael Jackson 's doctor will face trial for involuntary manslaughter . Our legal guys weigh in. @!WHITFIELD : Michael Steele is out as chairman of the Republican National Committee . He dropped out of the balloting yesterday after seeing his support dwindle . Steele was plagued by controversy and criticism and eventually lost favor with party insiders . He will be replaced by Wisconsin GOP Chairman Reince Priebus. @ ! REINCE-PRIEBUS-RN : With the election over , now is the time for the committee to unite . We must come @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ our party and our country . With that in mind , I want you to know that I am here to earn the trust and support of each and every one of you . I told you I would serve in humility and work hard and I 'm going to start working right now as your chairman . @!WHITFIELD : Priebus went on to say his top priority is building an organization to defeat President Obama in 2012 . More than a year and a half after Michael Jackson 's death , Dr. Conrad Murray will now face trial for involuntary manslaughter . We get some insight from our legal guys . Civil rights attorney Avery Friedman in Cleveland and criminal defense attorney Richard Herman in Las Vegas . The judge not only said there will be a trial for involuntary manslaughter ; by the way , I 'm revoking your license to practice in California . Is that fair to do that before there 's an outcome of the trial ? @!RICHARD-HERMAN-CR : Fred , I do n't think it is fair . And I think this judge @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do n't think it 's fair , and I think the judge has tipped his hand to his bias in this case . What happened to innocent until proven guilty ? Why do n't they wait until after the trial to see if there is a conviction here before they go after his license ? Or let the licensing authorities conduct internal hearings and try to take his license . Why does this judge have the right to automatically strip his license before a final adjudication ? @!AVERY-FRIEDMAN-CI : You need a transcript of that preliminary hearing . I do n't know how or why this doctor is practicing medicine in the first place . The judge did absolutely the right thing based on the existing evidence . I do n't think the judge tipped his hand at all . Irrevocable suspension and try this case where the prosecution has the burden to prove their case without a reasonable doubt . Apples and oranges . @!WHITFIELD : OK . Let 's talk about L.T. Lawrence Taylor . I know Richard you are a huge fan of l.T. , your heart @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ tune . He is now pleading guilty to two misdemeanor charges involving statutory rape of a 16-year-old girl . Remember emphatically initially when he was arrested , he said no way . I did n't know she was 16 . This did n't happen , et cetera . Now he 's changed his tune . Is it because he is getting six years probation and had he gone forward with the trial it would have cost more and it would have been most definitely jail time ? @!HERMAN : Yes . I mean , how do you be convicted of felony charges there he would have gone to prison . His lawyers babbling like a contestant on " Judge Judy " or something , so amateur hour . But I got to tell you , Fred , the greatest linebacker in the history of pro football , it is so sad . The only way he prevented himself from going to prison . @!FRIEDMAN : Come on . @!HERMAN : He became a rat . He went undercover . He worked with the authorities and tried to go after other @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ The woman came to his room , she was 16 . He paid her . He had sex with her , and that 's statutory rape to avoid prison he cut this sweetheart deal so he 's not going to prison , he is going to register as a sex offender , six years probation . They are going to give him lie detector tests . Let 's see what happens in the next six years . @!FRIEDMAN : Hold on . Why are you criticizing the defense team ? This is a spectacular resolution . @!HERMAN : He 's a rat . That 's why . @!FRIEDMAN : Dealing with issues of human trafficking which is a major national problem . A problem in New York , and the fact that he 's cooperating with authorities , you might call that , you know , turning him into a rat , I think that 's exactly what he should be doing . He should be down on his knees being thankful for that resolution . The defense team did a good job . Believe me if it were any @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the penitentiary , L.T. because of celebrity status walks away and that 's not fair , by the way . @!WHITFIELD : Wow . That 's tough . Tough . Tough , too , says Tom Delay , the former House Speaker , House Leader , he says , you know what ? His three- year sentence that he was just hammered with , he says too much . And he 's going to try and fight this all the way . He could have gotten ten years , though , Avery . On what grounds will he stay free and it 's too much ? This is for , you know , conspiracy to commit money laundering by the way . @!FRIEDMAN : And money laundering , Fredricka , both of them . The interesting thing is he blamed it on liberals . Liberals . There were 33 witnesses . There were 100 -- @!WHITFIELD : A judge and jury . @!FRIEDMAN : Went to the RNC came back , this was fairly much of a slam dunk and he blames it on liberals . Look , if you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Cunningham , multiyear sentences , it could have been much more serious . The district attorney asked for more . This is a very thoughtful reasoned sentence . It 's going to be affirmed in the Court of Appeals . @!HERMAN : Fred , this is political partisanship on the sentence . Every similarly situated defendant in Texas got probation for this stuff . But aside from that aside from that , Fred , he 's absolutely going to win on appeal . You can take it to the bank . The appellate -- @!WHITFIELD : What ? @!HERMAN : The Appellate Court in Texas has already ruled that in order for it to be money laundering it must be cash , not checks . And in this case , they could only prove checks . Therefore , he is 100 percent going to win on appeal . He 's not -- this conviction is going to be reversed . @!FRIEDMAN : 100 percent ? @!HERMAN : One hundred percent , guaranteed , man . @!FRIEDMAN : OK. @!WHITFIELD : I learn so much , who knew it was make @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I can always guarantee I 'll end up a little smarter now because of you . @!FRIEDMAN : Right . OK. @!WHITFIELD : I love it . Thank you , Richard , Avery always good to see you . Thanks so much and see you next weekend . We can count on them every Saturday . Also , every Saturday , you can count on a " Viral Video . " Jacqui Jeras is at the helm with a preview . What do we have ? @!JACQUI-JERAS-AMS- : Well , you know , major winter weather just pummeled the east over the last week , Fredricka . Of course , we are going to have some great snow videos for you , plus this . She 's a little shy , and as you can see , a little cross-eyed . This little possum is a big hit in Germany . She even has her own facebook page . @!WHITFIELD : You almost never know what makes a video go viral . Sometimes it 's a given . Especially in it involves pets . You know a cute kid or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ here with some viral video . Always guaranteed funny , good stuff when you get kids and pets . @!JERAS : We 've got cats today . We also have snow . What a week . @!WHITFIELD : I know . Everyone 's had it , just about . @!JERAS : Here 's a good reason . @!WHITFIELD : Yes . @!JERAS : Oh , did you see it ? This is why you do n't shovel the snow off your roof . @!WHITFIELD : Because someone may be down below . @!JERAS : Someone could be down below because of a whole avalanche coming down from your roof and take you with it . Tap , tap , that 's all it took . @!WHITFIELD : I really -- did n't know people were trying to shovel stuff off the roof . Is this unique ? @!JERAS : You get up to Buffalo ; you get four feet of snow . @!WHITFIELD : Folks are on their roof and they are shoveling. @!JERAS : We try to use a tool so you can be on the bottom . Do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? @!JERAS : Take a look at this . @!WHITFIELD : What am I looking at ? @!JERAS : So cute ! He is just standing there . Look . He just fell over and slides down the hill . Take a look at that . Having a good old time on the ski slopes . @!WHITFIELD : Oh , my gosh . That 's cute . @!JERAS : Is n't that adorable . Oh , my gosh . @!WHITFIELD : That is cute . @!JERAS : Over and over and over . @!WHITFIELD : That looks like a Lab. @!JERAS : Yes . Looks like a Golden Lab. @!WHITFIELD : I have a Lab . My Lb on the other hand , this week , would step outside and -- prance around like -- my feet , m paws , and they 're cold . What in the world ? My pooch. @!JERAS : My little Schnauzer was n't heavy enough to poke through the ice and get through the snow . He was like this . Not of his own volition . Sliding all over the place . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you a bowler ? Good thing to do in the winter . @!WHITFIELD : Do n't call myself a bowler , but like it . It 's fun . I wo n't get into scores and all that . @!JERAS : Look at this video . This is Josh . You 'll see him . He 's like , strike after strike after strike . Right . There you go . Got this little -- oh , yes . I got a new one . Then he 's going to do a strike again . And he 's got this little thing he does at the end . Right ? Look at him . The same thing every time . There 's the strike . Here 's 9 -- yes . Here comes . Oh -- he comes over and -- you got to get the sweat off your hands . Does a little turn with his little drag or whatever , right ? Now , watch what happens after he does that . We 're going to roll the next tape . Oops . There he goes . Walking @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ other lane . @!WHITFIELD : Ordinarily , that is a little embarrassing . That has happened to me before . @!JERAS : Are you a bumper person ? @!WHITFIELD : Like I said , do n't call me a bowler , I 'm not that regular . I 've done it a few times and I like it . @!JERAS : Amazing . I ca n't not get a strike . Right ? @!WHITFIELD : That is cute . @!JERAS : Here 's my favorite of the day . When you think of cute animals what do you think of ? @!WHITFIELD : Little kitties , little puppies. @!JERAS : Not so much an opossum . Take a look at this video . This is an opossum that is at a zoo in Germany . We were taking video behind the scenes . This has n't even deviewed to the public yet . Look at it . It 's cross-eyed . They 're not sure why but they say it 's not harmful to the animal . There is video on youtube . They made up a song about this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's a facebook page about this opossum . It has like 120,000 fans or more , and people just ca n't get enough of it . Look how cute that is. @!WHITFIELD : Yes . @!JERAS : It was born in the United States , though , by the way . @!WHITFIELD : OK . Let me refrain . I think you watch it , because you really ca n't believe . Are you staring because you 're like , oh , so cute ? Or are you staring because , oh , unusual ? @!JERAS : I 'm going with the cute . @!WHITFIELD : OK. @!JERAS : You ? @!WHITFIELD : You 're going with the unusual . @!JERAS : There you go . @!WHITFIELD : I 'm not saying . I just think , it does have kind of a train wreck kind of effect . Where you ca n't stop looking , and I do n't know why . @!JERAS : All right . @!WHITFIELD : But it is in the realm of cute . OK . I 'll go with that . Jacqui thanks so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ -- -- what-is# @ ! UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : I want pumpkin -- @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : ice cream is not the first thing on your mind when you 're cold . Kids want ice cream regardless of the temperature . Parents not so much . @!SUSAN-SOORENKO-OW : The season starts the first sort of warmish day in March and immediately the next day after Labor Day business is cut in half . There are two distinct pieces of my business ; there is the ice cream shop where the neighborhood comes . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : That is great . @!UNIDENTIFED-FEMALE : This one or this one ? @!SOORENKO : Then there is this side of the business where we sell to markets and restaurants and hotels and clubs . The past , I would say year and a half has been about really focusing on that wholesale side of things , because if I do n't do that , I have to lay people off . @!ADRIANA-TURCIOS-E : It 's a local business , it is helping the economy . Hopefully it 's going to make people happy . @!SOORENKO : It 's ice @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ believe it or not , not everybody eats ice cream . I know it is hard to imagine , but it is true . But the other piece is we need to be able to have people come in when it 's cold . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : In the wintertime , year-round , we offer hot beverages , coffee , hot chocolate . We push different ideas for mixes ice cream with coffee and hot chocolate . @!SOORENKO : With the economy , I 'm not going to lie , it 's been extremely difficult . It 's not just about seasonality , which is difficult in and of its own , it is that even when you are in your season people are looking very carefully at what they are spending . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE : We use things like Groupon to offer our services at a discount . It 's mostly a matter of reaching out to the community and reminding them we 're here . When it gets cold , ice cream is not the first thing in your mind . @!WHITFIELD : Another step on the road to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Giffords and 18 others were shot . The Safeway store where it all happened reopened . CNN 's Thelma Gutierrez is there right now and she was there for earlier when there was a moment of silence . How difficult was this for a lot of people to come back to work , come back to this place that this tragedy unfolded ? @!THELMA-GUTIERREZ- : Well Fred , you can just imagine how difficult that was . So many of the people who work here remember the sights and the sounds on that terrible Saturday seven days ago . They said it was very tough to come to work today for the first day in a week . But they said it was very important to be able to walk through the front door of this Safeway right behind me . They said it was cathartic to stand back in their store and then to have so many customers come and hug them and wish them well , and that 's something , Fred that was really interesting to me . I was in the store , and I saw @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ first names . There was this real sense of community out here . And a lot of support going out to the employees who witnessed that terrible tragedy . And then about 10:10 in the morning , which commemorates the time at which the first shots rang out , there was a moment of silence . They announced it on the p.a. system within the store , and those who chose to come outside to the memorial that you see right behind me came outside . People from the bakery department , and pharmacy and the meat department , and the cashiers . They all stood together with their customers there at that memorial . There was a moment of silence , and then people -- actually sobbed . Some prayed . And they talked about some of their feelings one week later . @ ! UNIDENTIFED-FEMALE : To me to hear those cries , they 're cries of sadness . @!UNIDENTIFED-FEMALE : We came together as a community and prayed for all the families and the victims involved for those who lost something dear and for those who are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , the employees told us that it was important for them to be able to get back to work to go back to some sense of normalcy , and I must say that Safeway has said that they were going to try to reach out to the victims , families of those victims . And so , what they 've done is put drop boxes at all of the cashier stands . They 're going to do so throughout all of the Safeway stores within Arizona to collect money for the victims of last week 's tragedy -- Fred . @!WHITFIELD : All right . Thelma Gutierrez there at the Safeway store in Tucson . Well , police say the night before he pointed a gun at Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords head , Jared Loughner carefully prepared for his attack . @!CNN's-Randi-Kaye-r# @!RANDI-KAYE-CNN-CO : The night before the shooting , 11:35 p.m . Friday , investigators tracking Jared Loughner 's last steps , say he drops off a roll of .35 millimeter film to be developed at Walgreens. : Less than an hour later , 12:29 a.m . Saturday @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ an ID and pays by credit card . Activity on his electronic room key shows he went in and out of the room several times during the night . : Two-nineteen a.m. , Loughner returns to Walgreens to pick up his developed photos . : Two-thirty-four a.m. , Loughner makes a purchase at this Chevron station 's convenience store . He buys a donut , a soft drink and some energy bars . The security camera captures Loughner on video . Before he leaves , he uses the pay phone . : Less than two hours later , 4:12 a.m. , Loughner post as message on his MySpace page . It reads , " Goodbye , friends , " and contains a photo developed earlier at Walgreens . Six-twelve a.m. , Loughner make as purchase at Wal-Mart . Nine minutes later , 6:21 a.m. , he 's at Circle K to buy something else . It 's now just about three hours before the shooting , 7:04 a.m. , Loughner makes his first attempt to buy ammunition at Wal-Mart . The store clerk keeps him waiting because @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , Loughner goes to another Wal-Mart where he buys ammunition and a diaper bag , which is similar to a backpack . : Seven-thirty-four a.m . Saturday , now , just 2 1/2 hours from the time of the shooting , Jared Loughner is stopped for running a red light just a few miles from a Safeway supermarket . An officer with the Arizona Game and Fish Department checks his license and registration . He sees there are no outstanding warrants and lets Loughner go with a warning . : Around 8:00 a.m. , back at Loughner 's parents house , his father confronts him about a black bag he 's carrying . Investigators say Randy Loughner asked his son what 's inside the bag and where he 's taking it . They said Loughner mumbles something and takes off into the desert . His father chases him in his truck but does n't catch him . : More than an hour later , 9:18 a.m. , Loughner calls a taxi to pick him up here at this Circle K convenience store . Authorities say the taxi @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . It is now just minutes before the shooting . : At 9:54 a.m. , the taxi arrives at the Safeway . The driver and Jared Loughner go inside the supermarket to get change for the fare . One minute later , 10:00 a.m. , Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords arrives for her " Congress on the Corner " event here . A few minutes later , Loughner asks a member of the congresswoman 's staff to speak with her . He 's told to wait in a line of about 20 people . He does so , but then exits the line and walks quickly towards the congresswoman . At 10:10 a.m. , investigators say Jared Loughner opens fire . Randi Kaye , CNN , Tucson , Arizona . @!WHITFIELD : Millions of Americans , like many of you , were adopted as a baby . So , what if you want to find your birth parents ? @ ! UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL : The woman was the same age as my birth mother . The father was the same age as my birth -- the person who signed as my @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ media are making it easier , but is it an invasion of privacy for the birth parents ? @!WHITFIELD : The Internet has made the world smaller , and the same tools that you use to find those old high school classmates -- well , apparently people are using that to help reconnect adopted children who are now adults with their biological roots . @!CNN's-Julie-Peters# @!MAURA-STEVENSON-A : My dad , my mom , my sister . @!JULIE-PETERSON-CN : It happened 19 years ago in a restaurant parking lot . That 's where Maura Stevenson , as an infant , was presented to her adopted parents . @!MAURA-STEVENSON : That 's when I started my real life -- my life in a family that loved me and a family that wanted me and the family that actually to find me and get me. @!PETERSON : Now a freshman in college , Maura has always known she 's adopted and is close to her adopted family . Still , she wanted to find her biological roots . At first , her adoptive mother was skeptical . But after going to a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!MARCIA-STEVENSON- : Her birth mother gave her life , and I feel like I gave her love , and I thank her every day of my life . @!PETERSON : Maura was able to quickly connect with the family tree using the names and dates from her adoption paperwork . She went to two social networking Web sites . @!MAURA-STEVENSON : All link together . The woman was at same age as my birth mother . The father was the same age as my birth -- the person who signed as my birth father . And then they had the two boys in between them . So , that 's how we kind of connected everything together . @!PETERSON : Maura learned that she has two older brothers , both raised by the parents listed in her paperwork . She reached out to the brothers and they told Maura that they remember their mother being pregnant . She says her birth mother does n't want to be contacted . @!MAURA-STEVENSON : She actually made her profile , her Facebook profile private . I never befriended her because I had a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . It did n't matter as much to me as finding my brothers . @!PETERSON : Adoption expert Leslie Mackinnon says there are dangers for adoptive children searching for their birth families . It can be a huge shock to be contacted by a child you gave up for adoption , and everyone involved needs to be sensitive . There can be a silver lining . @!LESLIE-MACKINNON- : If an adoptive parent can support their child in a search , what ends up happening is the child is even closer to them . @!PETERSON : Maura says finding her two brothers is a thrill -- one that helped her resolve a lifelong mystery . @!MAURA-STEVENSON : I found out that I 'm Scottish and Irish , it just -- it explains the blond hair , because my brother has blond hair , too . He has bluish-green eyes just like me . I like to know him , where I had come from . @!PETERSON : Maura hopes that one day , the time will be right to meet the woman who gave her life . She has a message @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ giving me up for adoption , and not doing something like abortion , and that I 've had a good life . @!PETERSON : Julie Peterson , CNN . @!WHITFIELD : And we 're going to continue looking into adoption and this arrangements , the use of social media . In two minutes , we 'll talk to someone who says that adoption -- adoption revolution is transforming America . Stay right here . @!WHITFIELD : All right . We 've been talking about and listening to stories how social networking is being used to help connect adopted kids with their biological parents . Well , there are many sides in which to look at this whole phenomenon . You 'll actually recognize one of our guests from the report that you just saw before the break , Leslie Mackinnon . She 's a licensed therapist and adoption expert . She 's back with us . You saw her in the piece as well , talk about these reconnection opportunities . Not everyone is welcoming this use of social networking to connect adopted kids with their biological parents , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do n't ever want a relationship with the child that they gave up . In the case of the young lady we saw in the story , she was very happy to meet the connection , but we also learned that the biological parents did n't want that . So , how do you try to navigate -- how do you either encourage or discourage this pursuit ? @!MACKINNON : Gotcha . One thing I want to say is there are few biological family members who do not want to reconnect . There are some , and I think it 's great that we saw Maura , because there 's an instance she got to meet a brother , but not her mother . @!WHITFIELD : Yes . @!MACKINNON : But it is such an opportunity , at the same time , it can be a hazard . I think this is kind of a leftover from closed adoption . In open adoption today , we do n't have reunions . You do n't have to reconnect , because it 's been open all along . But many kids will @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , and what I say is , if you 'll prepare yourself , there are support groups across the nation . You can find an adoption therapist . There are books about how to go about this , because what happens is , the person who 's searching is preparing the whole time and is knowing that 's the direction they 're going . @!WHITFIELD : Preparing for a while , what if I never find or what if I do , what if there 's a rejection ? @!MACKINNON : Exactly . @!WHITFIELD : So , when you have this dialogue with someone who says , you know what ? I really want to know . I really want to reach out . @!MACKINNON : Right . @!WHITFIELD : Do you recommend now , you know , that this is -- this is one of the tools you want to use ? @!MACKINNON : I do n't have to recommend it . It has taken off . @!WHITFIELD : They already are doing it . OK. @!MACKINNON : It has taken off . I have even birth family whose @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they 're doing and what 's going on in their life , but what I -- @!WHITFIELD : It 's a very big dynamic that has really changed adoption , the world of adoption -- @!MACKINNON : Absolutely . @!WHITFIELD : -- in so many different ways . @!MACKINNON : Absolutely . My thing is just educate yourself , because that person that you contact is likely to be very startled . They were n't expecting it , and there are ways to make contact that will increase your chances for a good connection , not a shocking one . @!WHITFIELD : Right . OK . Well , I 'm going to bring in Adam Pertman into this conversation as well . He actually wrote a book on how adoption , in his words , is transforming America . Good to see you . @!ADAM-PERTMAN-EVAN : It 's good to be here . It 's a good topic . @!WHITFIELD : So , while I thought -- so , yes , it really is fascinating . So , while I thought this was kind of a new thing we hear @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hat . This really has revolutionized the world of adoption in so many different ways . At what point did you start noticing this is not the adoption that we knew of 30 years ago and beyond ? @!PERTMAN : Well , a couple things worth saying in terms of the transformation . Boy , the Internet is transforming everything , right ? I mean , it is n't just adoption . We 're focusing on this day in the ways that it is changing that practice , but this is happening everywhere and we have to learn to deal with it . So , it 's not a question of : do we think this is a good idea . This is whether it 's a good idea or bad idea -- this is happening on the ground every single day . So , I agree with Leslie . What we need to do is educate ourselves . Evan B. Donaldson Adoption Institute , which I head , is a national think tank , basically , research organization . @!WHITFIELD : Yes . @!PERTMAN : And we 're doing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ kind that I 'm aware of , looking at how is the Internet affecting adoption ? What can parents do ? What can professionals do ? We really do need to education ourselves and we need knowledge base from which to really learn . @!WHITFIELD : So , when we learn the story of Maura , who was in the piece before the break , and we got to know her quest , et cetera . She found her biological brothers but learned the biological parents really did n't want to have a relationship . How much information do you have to have in order to begin this search ? Because it seems like the common experiences for a lot of adopted kids , that they , maybe if they have a birth date , maybe they have a region where this parent may have been from -- but how much information do you need in order to have a successful search ? @!PERTMAN : The answer is : it depends . One thing I want to say , we often sort of infantilize adopted people , say adopted kids @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , there is a kid element to this . And it 's one of the biggest reasons why we need to figure out thousand this Internet thing , this social media thing right , because of those kids . But usually we 're talking about adults -- @!WHITFIELD : Right . @!PERTMAN : -- people who have reached a certain age . That 's important . @!WHITFIELD : I kind of feel like -- @!PERTMAN : It 's in the language . It 's how we talk about it . @!WHITFIELD : Yes . @!PERTMAN : But in any case , the answer is : it depends . It depends on -- it 's not true that people at the other end , whether they 're the adoptive family or the biological family , are n't ready . A lot of times , they 're ready and they want to hear from those people . @!WHITFIELD : Oh , that 's fascinating stuff . @!PERTMAN : That 's right . @!PERTMAN : OK . Adam Pertman and Leslie Mackinnon -- thanks so much . It 's a fascinating conversation @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . It really is the beginning , especially since we 're talking about this major evolution in the world of adoption and reconnecting . Thanks to both of you . Appreciate it . @!MACKINNON : Thank you . @!WHITFIELD : A dramatic leadership change for U.S. ally . The question now : who is in charge of Tunisia ? @!WHITFIELD : All right . Let 's check in on what 's making news around the world now . We 're following political upheaval in Tunisia , deadly floods in Brazil now and Australia . Ralitsa Vassileh from CNN International joins me now . Ralitsa , good to se you . So much on the big world map , let 's begin with Tunisia and how -- what is taking place there is vitally important to the U.S. It is key U.S. ally . @!RALITSA-VASSILEH- : Absolutely . Tunisia is a key U.S. ally in the war against terrorist , supports for Middle East policies . But now , it 's very uncertain as to what will happen next in the country . By latest report , the protests which forced @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . There has been looting overnight . The army is in control of Tunis , the capital of Tunisia . There 's talk of the opposition holding talks with the caretaker government to come up with a unity government and hold elections within 60 days -- but still a very uncertain situation . But , Fred , what happened there is quite incredible . A first in the Middle East , people power , protest , popular protest , ousting an authoritarian leader . It was marked over discontent over joblessness . Tunisia has some of the most educated population in the Middle East , and 2/3 of the college grads ca n't find a job . Prices have gone up because of the economic -- global economic crisis . People are so desperate that one person who actually sparked these protests was a college grad with no job , whose only source of income was selling fruits and vegetables on the streets , did n't have a permit . The police in this repressive state confiscated his items -- @!WHITFIELD : He 's a huge voice now . @!VASSILEH @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ at what it 's led in about a month . @!WHITFIELD : Wow . And so , now , let 's talk about -- we 've seen some massive flooding in Australia and now Brazil . You know , flood emergency in that country , the death toll is rising . Any word on when that 's going to let up ? And how is that being measured against Australia ? @!VASSILEH : Well , first , let 's take Brazil -- a very serious situation , Fred . The death toll has risen . It was 500 just 24 hours ago . Now , it 's 550 . A lot of people unaccounted for , and the worst thing is that more rain is on the way . It has n't stopped raining since New Year 's Day there . And people -- mostly the poor people , they build homes on mountain tops that are prone to mudslides and to flooding as we see , and a lot of the people who have died have been those people living in favelas or shacks who built illegally . The @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this . And also , people are saying they have n't received any aid . @!WHITFIELD : But this is like a force of nature , which is exactly what Australia has been dealing with , as well . It just seems like it is not letting up . What is the status there in Brazil ? @!VASSILEH : Well , a little bit better , Fred . At least the weather is cooperating . No rains in the near -- in the next few days . People are beginning to try to pick up the pieces , but the whole inland scenes and debris that they ca n't get past . And so , it 's going to be difficult , the state governor says it 's like a postwar reconstruction and cleanup . That 's what he calls it . So , it 's going to take years to rebuild , months just to clean up . @!WHITFIELD : Terrible situation . Ralitsa Vassileh , thanks so much , with CNN International . Hopefully , next time , you and I will be on the same room . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ kind of . @!VASSILEH : Looking forward to it , Fred . @!WHITFIELD : OK . Good to see you . Thanks so much . @!VASSILEH : Good to see you . @!WHITFIELD : All right . A New Year brings CNN new heroes . The first CNN hero for 2011 , who 's rebuilding and redefining family for teens in Africa . @!WHITFIELD : All right . Today , we introduce you to the first CNN hero of 2011 , everyday people changing the world . Her name is Amy Stokes and she 's using the Internet to redefine the word family for hundreds of kids in Africa without role models . @!AMY-STOKES-CHAMPI : Are you going to help me do this other one ? In 2003 , my husband and I went to Johannesburg and we adopted our son . Here you go . @!HIV/AIDS-has-reall# Seeing all of the children and so few adults to help them grow up , with none of the adults you care about has ever lived past 35 , then why would you think you can ? Why would you stay in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : Tell me something good that happened in school will week . @!STOKES : I had to find a way to bring the caring , nurturing effect of other adults for that child to invest in themselves . I 'm Amy Stokes . I use the Internet to create a global village where the mentors and kids can interact face to face on a regular basis . @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL : Hi . How are you ? @!LESLEY-YANIV : How was your day at school ? Did you work in the garden ? @!STOKES : That mentor shows up every week , a relationship starts between one person here and one person there , and then that relationship expands . My mentor is so good , I like him very much . Because they want to connect with that special someone , they 're going to learn keyboard skills . The skills that they will need to have jobs and to be able to do whatever they need in the future . @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL : At first I was nervous . OK , I love you . @!YANIV : Love you , too @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ family and also part of my life . @!STOKES : It 's a bite-sized opportunity to change the world . And there 's no commute . @!WHITFIELD : Remember , all of this year 's CNN heroes are chosen from people that you tell us about on the CNN Heroes Web site . To nominate someone you think is changing the world , go to the CNNHeroes.com location .

@@4082641 Title : " Live to Tell " @!SHEA-MCDONOUGH : I try to avoid four ninety-five at all times because it reminds me of a very bad thing that happened to my family and I. @!JEANNIE-MCDONOUGH : Living close to the highway , I never really thought about safety factors . qwq @ ( Graphics-on-screen Chelmsford , Massachusetts July 29 , 2007 @!KEVIN-MCDONOUGH : It was Sunday night and we had just returned home from dinner . Jeannie decided to stay up and watch the Red Sox game and I turned in early . @!JEANNIE-MCDONOUGH : The weather was very hot . It was extremely oppressive . Shea came home . At her curfew , she has a twelve oclock curfew . She actually came home probably about fifteen minutes beforehand . @!SHEA-MCDONOUGH : To me , I was like , oh , Im doing good . Im doing good on time . I came in and I went straight to the back door just to see if it was unlocked . And I just left it unlocked . Thinking that my brother was coming home that night I wanted to make sure that he wasnt going to text me @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you come unlock the door ? Its locked . @!JEANNIE-MCDONOUGH : Shea was being a good sister and looking out for her big brother . I neglected to tell her that Ryan had called earlier in the evening and said that he was going to spend the night at his friend Rickys house . I do nt think anyone ever prepares for anything like this to happen to them . I heard a muffled sound , like a little whimper , come from the bedroom right next to us . And I thought that was odd -- Shea must be having a -- a bad dream or something . And Kevin got up at the same time . @!KEVIN-MCDONOUGH : She said Ill check on her . And I said no Ill check on her which really isnt the norm . Usually , Im selfish and want to get all the sleep I need . But that -- that morning something told me to get up . I got up and my wife Jeannie followed me in there . I opened up the door and I saw a black silhouette @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the middle of the night to a cold object on my neck . I thought it was a gun . I did nt know it was a knife . I just saw dark eyes and a mask . The man spoke and it was a voice that I had never recognized before . And he said if you make any f -- -ing noise Im going to kill you . And thats when I just kind of went into panic mode . And I just started kicking . And I just pushed my back against the bed , hoping to make as much noise as possible so that my parents could wake up and hear me . And my dad the first thing I heard him say was who are you ? The man stood up from leaning over me and just went straight for my dad . @!JEANNIE-MCDONOUGH : And we saw a knife in his hand . qwq @ ( Graphics-on-screen What if someone wants you dead but you " Live to Tell . " 48 HOURS MYSTERY . @!SHEA-MCDONOUGH : It was the scariest thing Ive @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that was probably three times the size of my dad , going after my mommy and my dad . @!JEANNIE-MCDONOUGH : He was dressed all in black -- black pants , black mask , just a terrorizing figure and he was huge . @!SHEA-MCDONOUGH : My dad just jumped on top of him . He was trying to grab the knife . I was just trying to get out of bed . @!KEVIN-MCDONOUGH : I was saying get the knife , get the knife . @!JEANNIE-MCDONOUGH : The knife was very big . The blade was Im going to say that long . And so I tried to grab the grip of the knife but the mans hand was huge and it was ineffective , it wasnt doing anything . So I just grabbed the blade of the knife because I did nt know what to do . @!KEVIN-MCDONOUGH : I instinctively told my daughter , call 911 , and get my gun . I do nt have a gun . But something inside me told me to say that which would keep him on his guard . @!OPERATOR-@1911-rec : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ A man came in with a gun and put it to my neck and he hurt both of my parents . @!OPERATOR-@1911-rec : Alright , alright , just relax . @!KEVIN-MCDONOUGH : Hurry up . @!OPERATOR-@1911-rec : Is he still there ? @!SHEA-MCDONOUGH : I was so confusing with the dispatcher and I was so flustered that I did nt even know what I was saying on the phone . @!KEVIN-MCDONOUGH : And all of a sudden he got a burst of adrenaline , he erected himself up off the bed with me on his back . Thats when I -- I knew I was in some deep ( EXPLETIVES DELETED ) . @!JEANNIE-MCDONOUGH : When the man stood up with Kevin on his back , the knife slid through my hands . I thought , oh , this is it , were all dead . @!SHEA-MCDONOUGH : It was so stop and go where one minute my dad had him under control and then hed freak out again . And it -- it -- it was scary . @!KEVIN-MCDONOUGH : In high school , I wrestled . I knew @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of this size that I had a chance on restraining him and taking him down was if I took his wind out . And I choked him on the throat and threw my weight back and pulled him with me and we hit the floor . @!JEANNIE-MCDONOUGH : And so at that moment I turned around and I grabbed the knife again , I grabbed the blade of the knife again . @!SHEA-MCDONOUGH : And I ran back into the bathroom and saw a lot of blood . And I did nt know what it was coming from , and then I looked down and I saw my mom holding onto the knife for dear life and she wouldnt let go of it . @!JEANNIE-MCDONOUGH : I was pissed . And all I could think about was I need to distract this guy so that he does nt try to do anything else . So Im screaming at him , Im like , what were you thinking ? Thats when the man spoke and said I -- I just wanted money . And I heard the accent and Kevin and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this ? Who is sitting in front of us ? @!KEVIN-MCDONOUGH : And he said Im nobody , let me go . And I said to him -- I said youre not going anywhere , you fat ( EXPLETIVES DELETED ) . @!SHEA-MCDONOUGH : When I saw the police come into the driveway , I was ecstatic . I was so relieved and so happy cause I knew that at that point , everything was going to be fine . And the second that the first officer got into the house , he just grabbed the guy and got him under control and everything . I did nt cry . I just immediately hugged my dad . He was really choked up . It really had nt hit him yet . He just -- I do nt think it hit any of us what had happened . @!JEANNIE-MCDONOUGH : As I left the room , Shea was with me . We just held onto each other for a little bit . And I wasnt going to let go of her for the life of me. @!DETECTIVE-GEORGE-T : When I first @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ expect at that point . It was very serious . The sergeant told me that a man had broke into the house . He was heavily armed -- different types of weapons , weapons that Ive never seen before -- Chinese throwing stars , choking wires , along with this horrifying mask . @!KEVIN-MCDONOUGH : After they left our house with this intruder , Jeannie and Shea went by ambulance to the hospital to tend to Jeannies wounds . @!JEANNIE-MCDONOUGH : Ryan was in shock when he found out what happened . He felt bad that he wasnt there that he was spending the night at his friend Rickys house . @!SHEA-MCDONOUGH : And its unfortunate caused he shouldnt because its not his fault in the slightest bit . I think he just wishes that he was there to just protect us. @!JEANNIE-MCDONOUGH : Detective Tyros told me that the man that had broken into our house was a long-haul trucker . His name was Adam Leroy Lane -- lived in North Carolina and was running routes up and down from North Carolina up to Nashua , New Hampshire , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : He had a wife and he had three daughters . That made me sick to my stomach to know . @!DETECTIVE-GEORGE-T : On August 2nd , a few days later , we conducted a search warrant of Adam Leroy Lanes truck . We found his log book , receipts , some more knives . We also found a movie inside of a DVD player . That movies titled Hunting Humans . This movie is about a serial killer that goes around randomly killing people without any motive or reason other than to just kill people . Later I learned that Adam Leroy Lane was on the prowl in our town for approximately five hours . He tried to get into at least three other houses before eventually getting into the McDonoughs residence through an unlocked door . He was out in our town hunting humans that night . We started to think maybe he s done this in other places and just has nt been caught yet . @(Graphics-on-screen) @!TODD-EWALT : Darlene was my wife and friend . Shes my partner in life . Ive known her since @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ back patio just enjoying the weather , talking on the phone . At ten oclock , I opened the door and told her I was headed to bed and she said shed be up in a little bit and I kind of laughed because I knew better because she just would be out on the phone until late . I just went upstairs and I shut the door . I went to sleep . @(Graphics-on-screen) @!TODD-EWALT : I was just laying in bed and my bedroom door opened up and the guys started screaming and shining flashlights at me . Guys were screaming at me to get my hands in the air . I thought this might be a home invasion or something . And I started to look past the flashlights and stuff and could see the silhouettes of the men standing there . And then I could see guns pointed at me . And then one of the troopers identified himself as a state trooper , so I put my hands in the air . They asked if my son was there and he walked up on the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they handcuffed him . I was able to look around . And I see my wifes purse , sitting there with her cell phone and keys on one of the chairs at the kitchen table . And I told my son , we got big problems , your mom wouldnt leave without her phone and her keys . Then I started seeing flash photography going off . I knew that wasnt a good sign . After about three hours one of the detectives came in sat me down . Thats when they told me that Darlene was dead and -- and she was killed at the hands of another person . Thats when things started to fall apart for me . I remember hearing my son scream . He was in the kitchen still handcuffed . He broke the chair he was sitting in . He head butted the refrigerator . Theres still two big dents in it . And -- ( CRYING ) . @!ED-MARSICO-JR-@1D : When I arrived , crime scene investigators were already working in the backyard of what Id describe as a typical suburban neighborhood . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a male friend on the phone . Darlenes friend hears the call sort of abruptly end , a sort of muffled sound , an -- an abrupt end to a call that in his experience wouldnt normally happen talking to Darlene . He tells his wife . They hop in their car and drive to Darlenes home where he discovered the body on that back patio . She suffered a fatal stab wound in the neck area and , ultimately , causing her death . @!NICOLE-POGASIC-@1T : I got woke up about six forty-five on the thirteenth from a phone call from my brother . I answered it . And he was like , Nicole , moms dead . Im like what ? Youre kidding me . Tell me youre lying . He s like , no , she was murdered last night . And then I just felt my whole life just completely fall apart . @!ED-MARSICO-JR. : As experience has often taught the police and prosecutors , people who are killed at home are most likely to be killed by someone close to them that this was not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ who knew her and someone who had the opportunity to kill her , and most likely , her husband . @!TODD-EWALT : They accused me of killing my wife . They just wanted me to breakdown and say I did it or paid somebody to do it . But I knew I did nt do it . @!NICOLE-POGASIC : Cops took me down to the Pennsylvania State Police barracks where they had my brother and my father . @!TODD-EWALT : I just remember her coming around the corner from the door and just running to me and just grabbing her and holding her and giving her a hug because I just -- there was nothing I could do for her . Nothing I could do to make it better . I just held on to her . @!NICOLE-POGASIC : We both kind of just wanted to rewind time . I never asked myself once if my dad killed my mom because I just knew . My mom had no enemies . She was just a great personality and was just loved by everybody . So it was kind of like @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ kill her ? And who would do it ? Who could be such a monster ? @!JEANNIE-MCDONOUGH : Shortly after the attack , we had to go to court and see our attacker. @(Graphics-on-screen) @!JEANNIE-MCDONOUGH : He was kept in a -- a Plexiglas , bullet-proof partition on the other side of the court from us . He just looked like a caged animal . He was disgusting . @!SHEA-MCDONOUGH : He wont stop staring at me and that was the worst feeling in the entire world . @!KEVIN-MCDONOUGH : I wanted to leap over the railing actually because I was so angry at that point . I mean I really wanted to -- to get a punch in or something . @!KERRY-AHERN-@1Assi : There was no way that we could allow this guy to hit the streets . The judge held Lane without bail , finding that he was a danger to the community as well as to the McDonough family . We did nt know a lot about him at the outset . He had no prior record in the State of Massachusetts , no prior criminal record @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , we knew he was one dangerous individual . We put out an all-point bulletin to see if any of the other police departments along the East Coast had had any type of similar incidents in their communities . And one of the first people to respond was a state police trooper out of New Jersey . His name was Geoff Noble . And he had inquired whether or not Adam Lane might have been responsible for a murder that he was investigating down in New Jersey . qwq @ ( Graphics-on-screen Bloomsbury , New Jersey One day before Sheas attack @!DETECTIVE-SERGEANT : On the morning of Monday , July 30th , 2007 , New Jersey troopers responded to the home of Monica Massaro . Miss Massaro had been stabbed multiple times in the sanctity of her own home . It was just the type of crime that someone with an incredible amount of violence and rage would have done . Monica Massaro was a single , thirty-seven-year-old female . She lived by herself . She was very active socially . She had a lot of friends , really lived @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that we would call suspects , specifically and that proved challenging for us . We knew that our victim lived in proximity to a truck stop . We , of course , felt that we should call the Chelmsford , Massachusetts Police Department and just kind of compare notes on the case . Basically , we wanted to know if Adam Leroy Lane was in New Jersey at or near the time Monica Massaro died . So we asked Detective Tyros if he had any evidence -- paperwork , logs , receipts , toll records -- anything that would indicate to us Adam Leroy Lanes route of travel . And all of a sudden , Detective Tyros kind of stops and he goes , hey , I have a receipt here . You know , okay . And he goes its from Bloomsbury , New Jersey . We all looked at each other like did he just say Bloomsbury , New Jersey ? When , George ? When ? And then he gave us the second piece , which was July 29th , 2007 , right at the time we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , I heard Detective Noble say , George , were coming to Chelmsford . @!DETECTIVE-SERGEANT : When we arrived in Chelmsford , Massachusetts , we immediately started , you know , the questions . Wheres the evidence ? You know , we want everything that Adam Lane could have had in his possession at the time of the murder . We wanted to know where was the truck and we learned that the truck had already been released . @!DETECTIVE-GEORGE-T : We had Adam Leroy Lanes tractor-trailer for approximately three weeks . Legally , we were only able to obtain evidence that pertained to our case . At that point in time , we did nt have any other cases . So , unfortunately , after several weeks , the owner of the tractor- trailer was looking for his truck back . Without any other cases , we had to eventually give him his truck back . @!DETECTIVE-SERGEANT : Everything in there that belonged to Adam Lane , the owner of the company threw into a dumpster which was located in the impound yard in Massachusetts , where the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to pick up and empty that dumpster on that very day . We got very lucky . We basically beat the trash hauler to the dumpster . And the dumpster was -- was packed , it was full . We suited up . It took an entire afternoon . We took every piece of debris and trash out of that dumpster . And in that bottom of the dumpster we found basically all of Adam Lanes personal property -- clothing , shoes , socks . Without a doubt every detective there suspected that we were coming across key potential DNA evidence in this case . We couldnt wait to get back to New Jersey , submit this stuff to the forensic laboratory and let the evidence basically show us , you know , what happened . @!DETECTIVE-GEORGE-T : Before Geoff went back , he wanted to interview Adam Leroy Lane . At that point we told him do nt get your hopes up but its worth a shot . @!DETECTIVE-SERGEANT : Going into the interview with Adam Lane , we had basically very low expectations . Because he did nt @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ he wasnt going to speak to us . Hello , sir . My name is Geoffrey . Geoffrey Noble . How nice to meet you . @!DETECTIVE-GEORGE-T : After Detective Noble went in to interview Adam Lane , my sergeant and I waited for him . We were thinking we were going to be eating dinner shortly . Its probably not going to go very long . After about a half hour , forty-five minutes , we realized , he s talking . After an hour we decided , you know what , we better go eat without him . @!DETECTIVE-SERGEANT : As we started talking to him , it became evident that Adam Lane actually , much to our surprise , wanted to speak with us. qwq @ ( Interrogation-vide : How long have you been driving trucks ? @!ADAM-LEROY-LANE-@1 : On and off , twenty years . @!DETECTIVE-SERGEANT : For the first hour , hour-and-a-half of the interview , he never once asked us what crime we were investigating . And my impression of that is he did nt need to ask because he knew why we were @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!ADAM-LEROY-LANE-@1 : They took movies that I had in the truck and made it seem like I was the worst mass murderer you ever seen in your life . Just because I hor -- like horror movies . @!DETECTIVE-SERGEANT : We did not have the benefit of the forensic results . So this whole interview was -- was done basically with my partner and I just feeling out Adam Lane as we went . qwq @ ( Interrogation-vide : Did you go anywhere else ? @!ADAM-LEROY-LANE-@1 : No. @!DETECTIVE-SERGEANT ( interrogation video ) : Did you -- did you -- We told him were not here because we think you did something in New Jersey . I told him were here because we know you did something in New Jersey . And you could see Adam Lanes demeanor start to change and my impression of it was he was starting to come to the realization that he was caught . And after several seconds he said the words Im done . I packed up our stuff . We turned off the tape recorder . My partner and I got up @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And after several minutes Adam Lane made a motion through the window of the door , made a nod for us to come back in . And at that point we -- we knew exactly where we were . We knew that Adam Lane wanted to confess . @!ADAM-LEROY-LANE-@1 : This is going to kill my family . @!DETECTIVE-SERGEANT : That he wanted to tell us what happened that night . @!ADAM-LEROY-LANE-@1 : She sit straight up and got out of bed when she seen me and started screaming and I tried to get her to be quiet . @!DETECTIVE-SERGEANT : He described how he stabbed Monica . @!ADAM-LEROY-LANE-@1 : I had the knife , it was on the bed , it was about that long . She split -- rolled against it and cut right here . Best I could tell , and Im no medic , it cut this jugular vein right here . @!MAN-@1interrogatio : How far across ? @!ADAM-LEROY-LANE-@1 : About here . @!DETECTIVE-SERGEANT : He described where he stabbed her . @!ADAM-LEROY-LANE-@1 : Between her legs . On her stomach .. @!DETECTIVE-SERGEANT ( interrogation video @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of this ? @!ADAM-LEROY-LANE-@1 : No. @!DETECTIVE-SERGEANT ( interrogation video ) : Did you -- @!ADAM-LEROY-LANE-@1 : Look , I love my wife . I love my wife very much . I ai nt out for sexual toys . @!DETECTIVE-SERGEANT ( interrogation video ) : What happened next , Adam ? @!ADAM-LEROY-LANE-@1 : She bled to death . I couldnt do nothing about it . It did nt take very long . @!DETECTIVE-SERGEANT ( interrogation video ) : About how long ? @!ADAM-LEROY-LANE-@1 : Less than sixty seconds . @!DETECTIVE-SERGEANT : Adam Lane no doubt about it is perhaps the most dangerous man that Ive seen personally . And the reason is because , you know , theres no explanation . There is no why with Adam Lane . And he killed Monica Massaro just in my opinion for the sport of it . @!JEANNIE-MCDONOUGH : I received a phone call on my cell phone from the chief of police . They told us that Adam Leroy Lane had murdered a woman the night before he came to our house . When we heard that , we -- we were @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ moment that we came seconds , milliseconds from losing our daughter in the most horrific way possible . @(Graphics-on-screen) @!NICOLE-POGASIC : My biggest fear after I lost my mom was that I was going to lose my dad . I did nt want him to end up in prison for something that he did nt do . Emotionally , I couldnt bear to lose another parent . @!TODD-EWALT : I had been subpoenaed to appear in front of a grand jury the early part of September of 2007 . And as it drew closer , the more worried I was getting . @!DETECTIVE-SERGEANT : Several weeks after we submitted Adam Lanes knives to our laboratory for analysis , we received word of what the results were . The results showed that not only was Monica Massaros DNA on his knives , but also Darlene Ewalts from Pennsylvania . Her DNA was also on Adam Lanes knives . @!NICOLE-POGASIC : I found out that my moms DNA was on a knife from the newspaper . I think I called my Dad . Im like so youre clear ? And then @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ knowing that finally that they have the evidence to clear my father . @!ED-MARSICO-JR. : After we discovered that Darlenes blood was on the knife taken from Adam Lane , I did meet with Todd Ewalt and explained to him that we had found the perpetrator and apologized that he had been a suspect , treated as he believed somewhat unfairly during the investigative process . And I wanted him to know that we would do whatever we could to bring Adam Lane to justice . @!TODD-EWALT : I cant even begin to think of how bad it would have been if Lane was never caught . I think I would have been on trial for the murder of my wife . @!ED-MARSICO-JR. : The DNA match of Darlene Ewalts blood on Adam Leroy Lanes knife was a complete game changer . We knew that he was incarcerated , that he faced charges in Massachusetts and he faced charges in New Jersey . Since he was locked up , and we knew he wasnt going anywhere , we decided we would defer to Massachusetts and New Jersey before commencing our @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ terrified me , I wanted to face this guy down . I -- Im sorry but you do nt come into my house and attack my family . Im going to be there . And Im going to watch you every step of the way . @(Graphics-on-screen) @!KERRY-AHERN : We knew pretty much from the outset that this case was not going to go to trial . There was really no defense that he had to offer . He was caught red-handed in the McDonoughs house by the Chelmsford police . So at some level we knew it was going to be a plea . And what it came down to was how long of a sentence were we going to get on this guy . The one sticking point for Adam Lane seems to be the sexual assault charge . He was adamant that he wasnt going to sexually assault Shea McDonough . This wasnt about sex . So I went to the McDonoughs and we discussed it if that was the one sticking point , did they feel comfortable with dismissing that charge if it meant that the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ he would receive twenty-five to thirty years in state prison . @!JEANNIE-MCDONOUGH : That meant that Shea would not have to get up on the witness stand and recount everything that she went through that night and just traumatize her all over again . We said , okay , lets just accept the plea bargain and go forward with it . @!KERRY-AHERN : I would have liked to seen a longer sentence since thats what we were advocating for . But we also knew that Adam was going to face murder charges in both New Jersey and Pennsylvania . So at the end of the day , we knew he was never going to get out . @!JEANNIE-MCDONOUGH : I felt compelled that , okay , even though the legal battles for us were over , I was going to see this thing through and I was going to make sure that I was at every hearing that he was at , that I was with the families of the other victims . @!JEANNIE-MCDONOUGH : We went down to the sentencing for Monica Massaro. @!MAN-# 1 ( in court ) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . We do nt know why a person who has a husband and a father suddenly commits these kind of acts . @!JEANNIE-MCDONOUGH : I just was heartbroken for Faye and Frank Massaro . Monica was their only child and only daughter . And their whole lives revolved around her . @!SHEA-MCDONOUGH : I remember giving Monicas mom a hug and just saying how sorry I was and just really feeling her pain . And it -- it was hard . It was really hard . @!JEANNIE-MCDONOUGH : As we were walking into the courtroom , we noticed this gentleman sitting against a railing outside of the courthouse . And he just looked lost . We learned that it was Todd Ewalt , the husband of Darlene Ewalt . I gave him a big hug . And I just felt like awful . Why am I here and his wife isnt here ? @!TODD-EWALT : I was just really thankful to meet them the first time , to be able to shake their hand and tell them thank you . @!JEANNIE-MCDONOUGH : For them to finally have their daughters killer @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was relieved that they were able to be there and see him sentenced . @!MAN-# 2 ( in court ) : -- sentenced to serve fifty years in the New Jersey State Prison . @!JEANNIE-MCDONOUGH : I wanted to know why Lane would go off and start killing people . I started digging , looking for answers . It just snowballed and it ended up turning into a book . It seems like he had a normal childhood and as far as we could see that there was no criminal background . The police told me that it was very difficult on his family . Well never probably ever know why he did what he did . There was more to write about because Lane still had to face the charges against Darlene Ewalt and I was determined that I was going to be in that courtroom when he was sentenced . I could be there as a reminder to him that you know what , you killed those other women , but Im still here and Im going to make sure you get what you deserve . @(Graphics-on-screen) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that Lane was sentenced for the murder of my mother . The McDonoughs were there and the Massaros were there . @!JEANNIE-MCDONOUGH : It showed a lot of solidarity between the families , the connection that we all feel as a result of being tormented by this guy . @!NICOLE-POGASIC : There was some tension in the courtroom . But there was also a lot of tears and pain . And then there was just nothing from Lane . He was a blank slate . Its like he did nt even care . @!ED-MARSICO-JR : We initially sought the death penalty against Mister Lane . As we continued to talk with the Ewalt family , they were becoming concerned about an actual trial , you know , going through the emotional aspects of hearing about Darlenes death in a trial , the fact that a defense tactic might be to try and blame Todd as -- as the killer . @!MAN-# 3 ( news reporter ) : A serial killer who police say went after random women along his truck route will spend the rest of his life behind bars @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Some of Ewalts family were in courtroom today and they supported the agreement . @!TODD-EWALT : It was not hard to accept a plea deal for life in prison for Adam Lane . Because whether he s on death row or not , its not going to change my circumstances at all because nothing can make up for all the pain that he s caused . Theres just no way . @!JEANNIE-MCDONOUGH : I feel like if theres anything I can do for Nicole to make the road ahead easier for her I owe it to her . @!NICOLE-POGASIC : I can call Jeannie anytime . Shes programmed in my speed dial . And usually at the end of every phone call it ends with I love you . Its great because its almost like a second mother . The McDonoughs are sort of like heroes in my book . They stopped an innocent man from going to jail . They put a guilty man away . And they saved countless women . @!SHEA-MCDONOUGH : Its hard looking at the other families and seeing that the hard times that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ them and I do feel guilty that Im still here and that others are nt because it sucks . @!JEANNIE-MCDONOUGH : She just was traumatized . She did nt want to get up out of bed . She did nt want to leave her room . When she was in the basement , she was terrified of people looking in. @!KEVIN-MCDONOUGH : She had gone off to school . And she had some anxiety . She thought she was ready to go on to college and she -- she had to come home . She -- she couldnt be away from us initially . @!SHEA-MCDONOUGH : Therapy made a huge difference and I was able to just get a lot of emotions and feelings out that I did nt even know , like , I had built up . And it was just a great feeling because now I feel like Im able to let go and able to move on without holding a grudge and being angry . @!SHEA-MCDONOUGH : Every time I leave the house or every time I go anywhere , its -- we never forget to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ happen . Some were good and I know were -- @!JEANNIE-MCDONOUGH : When I go to bed at night and I look at my husband , I think , you know , you -- you are just my hero , really . I mean , he saved my daughters life . He saved my life . He saved his own . @!SHEA-MCDONOUGH : Were here because of him , so he really is the hero . He is a hero . @!KEVIN-MCDONOUGH : I think about Monica and her family and the Ewalts and their loved ones that theyve lost . And I say to myself , you know , why were we so lucky ? But I feel that he was sent there to be stopped , to our house . I feel there was a reason or a greater power that enabled us to stop him that night . And I -- I feel he was sent there to be stopped . qwq @ ( Graphics-on-screen Adam Leroy Lane was convicted of assaulting another woman in Pennsylvania . He will spend the rest of his life in prison @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Caught in the Act . " SUBJECT : Crime ; Justice ; Murder ; Families

@@4082741 The New Tax Havens ( Shachar Bar-On ) One Child at a time ( Tanya Simon/Catherine Herrick ) The Sage of St. Anthony ( Peter Radovich Jr. ) @!LESLEY-STAHL-@1voi : Corporations are avoiding paying billions of dollars in U.S. taxes by moving their operations to new tax havens like the Swiss town of Zug . So here we are in Zug. : We went there to visit their operations . And we came to see your international headquarters . @!WOMAN : Um , at the moment , my boss is not here . Sorry . @!LESLEY-STAHL-@1voi : She said her boss wasnt there and we should call someone halfway around the world . In Houston ? @!WOMAN : Yeah . @!LESLEY-STAHL : Not here ? @!WOMAN : No. @!LESLEY-STAHL : But this is the headquarters . @!WOMAN : I know . @!LESLEY-STAHL : And is the CEO here ? @!WOMAN : No. *** @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : Elissa Montanti is unlike almost anyone weve ever met . With the help of some very charitable American doctors , shes changed the lives of more than one hundred kids . Like this one , a boy from Iraq who needed an arm @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ love you , Waad. @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : Tonight , youll follow his transformation -- @!ELISSA-MONTANTI : Look at him , oh -- @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : -- which is a wonder to watch . *** @!BOB-HURLEY : Catch it . Face the basket . Make a play . You just got to get up closer , you do nt just say screen , my God , where next ? @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : This is not a story about a tyrannical coach who churns out athletes at some high school sports factory . Its about values , loyalty , and commitment at a small inner city parochial school that does nt meet anyones idea of what a basketball powerhouse should look like . *** @!STEVE-KROFT : Im Steve Kroft. @!LESLEY-STAHL : Im Lesley Stahl. @!BOB-SIMON- : Im Bob Simon . @!MORLEY-SAFER : Im Morley Safer . @!ANDERSON-COOPER : Im Anderson Cooper . @!SCOTT-PELLEY : Im Scott Pelley . Those stories and Andy Rooney tonight on 60 MINUTES . @!THE-NEW-TAX-HAVENS# @!LESLEY-STAHL : Our government is in knots over ways to lower the federal budget deficit . What if we told you we found a pot @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that could be used to help out ? That bundle is tax money not coming in to the IRS from American corporations . One major way they avoid paying the tax man is by parking their profits overseas . Theyll tell you theyre forced to do that because of the thirty-five percent corporate tax rate is high in relation to other countries , and indeed it seems the tax code actually encourages companies to move businesses out of the country . Companies searching out tax havens is nothing new -- in the eighties and nineties there was an exodus to Bermuda and the Cayman Islands , where there are no taxes at all . When President Obama threatened to clamp down on tax dodging , many companies decided to leave the Caribbean . But instead of coming back home , they went to safer havens like Switzerland . @!LESLEY-STAHL-@1voi : Several of these companies came to this tiny dot on the Swiss map called Zug ; a small , quaint medieval town . I do nt think anybodys ever heard of Zug in the United States . : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ showed off the nearby snow-covered mountains . But Zugs main selling point isnt a view of the Alps . How low are the taxes here ? @!HANS-MARTI : Its something between fifteen and sixteen percent . @!LESLEY-STAHL : And in the United States its thirty-five percent . @!HANS-MARTI : I know . Its half , half price . @!LESLEY-STAHL : And do you have the lowest tax rate in Switzerland ? @!HANS-MARTI : Most probably , yes . @!LESLEY-STAHL : Most probably , yes . So youre kind of a tax haven within a tax haven ? @!HANS-MARTI : Maybe , yes . @!LESLEY-STAHL : Yeah , yeah , yeah . : The population of the town of Zug is twenty-six thousand ; the number of companies in the area -- thirty thousand and growing at an average rate of eight hundred a year . But many are no more than mailboxes . Texas Democratic Congressman Lloyd Doggett questions whether the recent moves of several companies are legit. @!REPRESENTATIVE-LLO : A good example is one of my Texas companies thats been in the news lately , Transocean. @!LESLEY-STAHL-@1voi : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ oil spill . They moved to Zug two years ago . @!REPRESENTATIVE-LLO : Im not sure they even moved that much . They have about thirteen hundred employees still in the Houston area . @!LESLEY-STAHL : Mm. @!REPRESENTATIVE-LLO : They have twelve or thirteen in Switzerland . @!LESLEY-STAHL : And yet theyre -- they claim -- @!REPRESENTATIVE-LLO : They -- @!LESLEY-STAHL : -- that theyre headquartered over there . @!REPRESENTATIVE-LLO : They claim theyre Swiss . And they claim theyre Swiss for tax purposes . And by doing that , by renouncing their American citizenship , theyve saved about two billion dollars in taxes . @!LESLEY-STAHL : So here we are in Zug. : We went to find their operations here . We came to see your international headquarters . @!WOMAN-# 1 : Um , at the moment my boss is not here so -- @!LESLEY-STAHL-@1voi : She said her boss wasnt there and we should call someone halfway around the world . In Houston ? @!WOMAN-# 1 : Yeah . @!LESLEY-STAHL : Not here ? @!WOMAN-# 1 : No. @!LESLEY-STAHL : But this is the headquarters . @!WOMAN-# @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ CEO here ? @!WOMAN-# 1 : No. @!LESLEY-STAHL : I mean , normally here ? @!WOMAN-# 1 : No. @!LESLEY-STAHL : Okay . : Another Texas company that moved here is Weatherford , a ten- billion-dollar oil field services firm . It still has twenty-eight hundred workers in Houston . But according to official documents , they are incorporated in Zug , in this small building . But there was no Weatherford on the sign outside . Finally found it -- listed in this thing , Weatherford International . Here -- heres the mailbox . But we do nt know even where to go , theres no listing for the international headquarters of Weatherford. : So we started knocking on doors . Hi . @!WOMAN-# 2 : ( FOREIGN LANGUAGE ) @!LESLEY-STAHL : Were looking for Weatherford . Are they in this building ? @!WOMAN-# 2 : Yes . @!LESLEY-STAHL : Here ? @!WOMAN-# 2 : Just a moment , please . I have to check it . All right . @!LESLEY-STAHL : Okay . All right . : I was shown to a conference room they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ office told us they never go there . So are these big companies pulling a fast one ? Well , apparently not , under both Zug and U.S. tax laws , its perfectly legal to get the low tax rate even without a real presence here . But Congressman Doggett wants to change that . You have a proposed legislation that a company will be taxed not based on where they file some pieces of paper , but where their decision makers and management actually resides and makes decisions . @!REPRESENTATIVE-LLO : Let them pay the same way that other Houston- based companies pay . And so if they have their management and control there , they ought to be paying here in the United States . I think its fair . @!LESLEY-STAHL-@1voi : We found that faced with the mere threat of Doggetts legislation , Transocean and Weatherford both recently packed up their top brass and shipped them to Geneva . We were told Transoceans top ten executives live around here in the Geneva area , and work on the top two floors of this building , everyone from @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ president of taxes . : They wouldnt talk to us on camera , and neither would Weatherford . They also moved their CEO and CFO to Geneva . And so now were beginning to see a jobs exodus from the U.S. of top management . @!REPRESENTATIVE-LLO : We cant write a law that their lawyers cant get around . Thats the whole problem here . @!LESLEY-STAHL : Youre in Congress . Why did Congress write these laws that allows this to happen ? @!REPRESENTATIVE-LLO : Theres been a lot of arm twisting , a lot of effective lobbying here , and some really smart tax lawyers figuring out how to game the system with one shenanigan after another . @!LESLEY-STAHL : But are they shenanigans , or is it the law ? @!REPRESENTATIVE-LLO : I think it was a shenanigan when some of these companies felt so strongly about America that they renounced their American citizenship and began saluting a foreign flag . They exploited a provision in our tax laws and moved offshore . @!LESLEY-STAHL : Congress tried to put a stop to that with a law passed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ move offshore would still have to pay the thirty-five percent . But because of loopholes in the tax code , companies can substantially lower their taxes by moving chunks of their businesses to their foreign subsidiaries . I think when people hear that all these companies are moving overseas because of taxes , they think that does nt smell right . @!THIERRY-BOITELLE : Yeah , the question is , does a company have a moral obligation to pay its fair share " @!LESLEY-STAHL-@1voi : Swiss tax attorney , Thierry Boitelle. @!THIERRY-BOITELLE : I think many companies in the U.S. would like to keep the jobs in the U.S. if they could , but they also need to keep their shareholders happy . And they are in the U.S. in a -- in a -- in a corporate tax nightmare because its the highest tax rate in the world . @!LESLEY-STAHL-@1voi : With Japan slated to lower its rate in April , the U.S. will soon have the highest corporate tax rate in the developed world . @!JOHN-CHAMBERS : We are dealing with a tax system that is a dinosaur . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ John Chambers , head of Cisco -- the giant high-tech company headquartered in San Jose . He says our tax rate is insane . Its forcing companies into these maneuvers , especially when many other industrialized countries , including Canada , are busy lowering their tax rates in order to lure our companies and our jobs away . @!JOHN-CHAMBERS : Every other government in the world has realized that the U.S. has it wrong . Theyre saying Im going to have lower taxes , period . Thats what you see across all Western Europe , thats what you see in Asia in the developed countries . @!LESLEY-STAHL : Are you judged as a CEO on things like this on taxes ? @!JOHN-CHAMBERS : Absolutely . @!LESLEY-STAHL-@1voi : He s been expanding Cisco overseas because of growing demand abroad , but also to lower the companys taxes , their average rate over the last three years was just twenty percent . Economist Martin Sullivan says its standard operating procedure for companies like Cisco . @!MARTIN-SULLIVAN : U.S. multinationals are shifting their research facilities , shifting their manufacturing facilities , and shifting @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ those are massive numbers of jobs . @!LESLEY-STAHL-@1voi : He says Ireland taxes corporations at just a third of the U.S. rate , so no wonder the outskirts of Dublin look like Silicon Valley . These companies are all but obliged to go abroad . @!MARTIN-SULLIVAN : Well , if youre -- have a thirty-five percent rate in the United States and , for example , a 12.5 percent rate in Ireland , theres a ( sic ) incentive to -- to move your factory to Ireland . @!LESLEY-STAHL : Six hundred American companies are in Ireland -- @!MARTIN-SULLIVAN : Mm-Hm. @!LESLEY-STAHL : -- and they employ a hundred thousand people . @!MARTIN-SULLIVAN : Thats right . @!LESLEY-STAHL : Those are jobs that are nt here . @!MARTIN-SULLIVAN : Mm-Hm. @!LESLEY-STAHL : And they moved to Ireland because of taxes . @!MARTIN-SULLIVAN : Mm-Hm . The U.S. Treasury in effect is subsidizing investment in Ireland . @!LESLEY-STAHL : Why isnt everybody in Ireland if its that great ? @!MARTIN-SULLIVAN : Almost everybody is in Ireland ; all the pharmaceutical companies , all the high-tech companies . Youre stupid if youre @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have an awful lot of companies in Ireland . @!JOHN-CHAMBERS : Yes , we do . @!LESLEY-STAHL : One , two , three , four , five , six , seven , eight companies in Ireland . @!JOHN-CHAMBERS : Mm-Hm . We do what makes sense to the shareholders . We go where there are incentives in countries that say we want you here , were going to give you tax advantages , and we want you to add jobs here , etc . We can no longer in America say this is how we do it , therefore you must do it . Weve got to change , or were going to be left behind . @!LESLEY-STAHL-@1voi : An increasingly popular way , particularly pharmaceutical and high-tech companies like Google avoid paying the thirty- five percent is to shift their patents , computer code , pill formulas , even logos from their U.S. bases to their outposts in low-tax countries . @!THIERRY-BOITELLE : A hundred years ago , if a company would want to relocate , you know , youd have to pick up a factory , machinery , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Today , a company can move predominantly all of its assets just on paper . @!LESLEY-STAHL : You can push a button and move your algorithms , you know , and or on to Switzerland . @!THIERRY-BOITELLE : Or Coca-Cola could take the recipe out of the vault -- @!LESLEY-STAHL : Yeah . @!THIERRY-BOITELLE : -- and put it in a Swiss vault . @!LESLEY-STAHL : Yeah . And then -- and then its Swiss ? @!THIERRY-BOITELLE : Yeah . @!LESLEY-STAHL-@1voi : When a formula or a computer code is registered abroad , say in Zug , a U.S. company is allowed to claim that a lot of its taxable profits are there , even if most of its sales are in the U.S. @!MARTIN-SULLIVAN : The need for tax reform is greater than ever . @!LESLEY-STAHL-@1voi : Economist Sullivan told Congress these patents and profit transfers are accounting tricks that allowed companies to chip away at the thirty-five percent and save tens of billions of dollars . He says that from 2007 to 09 these maneuvers helped lower Pfizers average tax rate to seventeen percent ; Merck to 12.5 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ You know its really remarkable as I review the data is the consistency with which you see this phenomenon . The taxes are going down . The profits are shifting offshore at an accelerated rate over the last few years . @!LESLEY-STAHL-@1voi : So now these companies have profits accumulating overseas in places like Zug . Oh , look at your clock tower . : If they bring the money home , its taxed at the full thirty- five percent . If they leave it overseas , the IRS cant touch it . In other words , the tax law all but forces companies to keep their money out of the country , indefinitely . @!JOHN-CHAMBERS : We leave the money over there . I create jobs overseas ; I acquire companies overseas ; I build plants overseas ; and I badly want to bring that money back . @!LESLEY-STAHL : How much does your company have overseas that could be brought back ? @!JOHN-CHAMBERS : Almost forty billion dollars . Forty billion . @!LESLEY-STAHL : Cisco has forty billion dollars -- @!JOHN-CHAMBERS : Yeah . @!LESLEY-STAHL : -- @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : The total amount of money U.S. companies have trapped overseas is 1.2 trillion dollars . Chambers is advocating for a one-time tax break to allow them to bring that money home at a rate of say five percent . He says that would stimulate the economy and create jobs . @!JOHN-CHAMBERS : What is your downside for money that isnt going to come back anyhow ? Id say your downside is zero . @!LESLEY-STAHL-@1voi : But the Obama administration opposes this idea . When it was tried in 2005 , the Treasury did rake in billions of dollars , though , very few jobs were created . What -- what if tomorrow -- @!JOHN-CHAMBERS : Mm-Hm. @!LESLEY-STAHL : -- Congress passed a quickie law -- @!JOHN-CHAMBERS : Yeah . @!LESLEY-STAHL : -- and the tax rate was twenty percent ? @!JOHN-CHAMBERS : Mm-Hm. @!LESLEY-STAHL : Would that solve everything ? @!JOHN-CHAMBERS : I think it is the most important ingredient that we have to think about being competitive . @!LESLEY-STAHL : You lower the rate from thirty-five percent to twenty percent . You lose something like two trillion dollars @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have a horrible deficit crisis , debt crisis . @!JOHN-CHAMBERS : Mm-Hm. @!LESLEY-STAHL : Thats -- thats almost too much money to lose . Whats your answer to that ? @!JOHN-CHAMBERS : My answers very simply , every other developed country in the world has already done this . Im not asking to give me a favor , or a hand out . @!LESLEY-STAHL : So you know what it sounds it . @!JOHN-CHAMBERS : All were asking is give us a level playing field . Get us close . @!ONE-CHILD-AT-A-TIM# @!SCOTT-PELLEY : Of all the tragedies of war , none are greater than those that involve children . Caught in the crossfire or hit by a roadside bomb , children are often wounded but rarely receive the heroic , high-tech medical care that our troops depend on . Recently , we heard about a woman in Staten Island , New York , who has devoted herself to wounded children . Elissa Montanti has little money and no training in humanitarian relief , but against the odds she has changed the fortunes of more than one hundred crippled @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to see how she does it , so for four months we followed Elissa Montanti on her journey with one child , a nine year old from Iraq , a boy named Waad. @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : This is Waad last April when he arrived in America with his mother Waffa . Elissa Montanti brought them here after an American soldier told her Waads story . @!ELISSA-MONTANTI : He was walking with his friends and they were kicking a bottle . I think the first child kicked a bottle and then maybe the second . And then he kicked it and it exploded . @!SCOTT-PELLEY : It was a bomb . @!ELISSA-MONTANTI : It was a bomb . @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : The blast shattered his face , tore out his eye , and took away his right arm and left leg . Waad would receive treatment for all of those wounds from a network of volunteers and charities that Elissa Montanti has recruited one by one over the last fifteen years . Waads first stop was at the Shriners Hospital in Philadelphia ; Shriners has twenty-two hospitals that provide free care to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you are so strong . Very good . @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : Waad pushed through physical therapy to strengthen his muscles . @!WOMAN-# 1 : Youre going to be Superman . @!MAN-# 1 : Its right here . @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : But slowed down long enough -- @!MAN-# 2 : He really gets around well . @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : -- to get fitted for a new arm and leg that the Shriners made for him . Then it was a trip to see an ocular specialist , Annette Kirzrot , who also volunteers for Elissa . A prosthetic eye was the first step in improving Waads appearance . @!ANNETTE-KIRZROT : Happy ? @!WAAD : Happy . @!ANNETTE-KIRZROT : Happy . @!WAAD : Happy . @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : But the tougher part would be reconstructing his face . @!DR-KAVEH-ALIZADEH : Waad , how are you buddy ? @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : That was the challenge for plastic surgeon Kaveh Alizadeh . He s a Long Island volunteer recruited by Elissa. @!DR-KAVEH-ALIZADEH : So theres this increasing pool of people that get drawn into her world . And if you have , if youre lucky or unlucky enough ( @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ get pulled in . Can you blow up your cheeks really big ? @(Woman-speaking-for) @!SCOTT-PELLEY : When you first approach a hospital or a doctor to ask them for potentially , hundreds of thousands of dollars in free medical care , whats your pitch ? What do you tell them ? @!ELISSA-MONTANTI : I tell them this true story . Heres a child thats -- thats battered . I just tell them the reality . I expect them to help . Im grateful because they do nt have to help . But I expect that they would , because how could you not ? And you get to feed the elephants . @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : After the earthquake hit in Haiti , she went to the island and brought back three girls who lost limbs . Elissas work with crippled children began back in 1996 when a friend asked her to raise money to buy school supplies for kids in war-torn Bosnia . That led to a meeting with the Bosnian ambassador to the U.N . @!ELISSA-MONTANTI : And he said to me , you know , quite frankly , we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ He reached in his drawer . And he handed me this letter that this boy had written to him asking for help , two new arms and a leg . And I saw his picture . And thats really when my whole life started to change . @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : She brought that boy to the U.S. for treatment . Kenan Malkic , now twenty-eight , helps Elissa run her tiny charity with a mighty name ; she calls it the Global Medical Relief Fund . Global Medical Relief sounds really big . @!ELISSA-MONTANTI : Its big in the sense that we reach out to the world . But its small in that its really me. @!SCOTT-PELLEY : Maybe you should call it One Little Lady in Staten Island . : She runs Global Medical Relief out of her home , a fifty-seven- year-old single woman with a computer and a phone . @!ELISSA-MONTANTI : My office is my former walk-in closet . And I added a window . And it works . And I speak to the world right out of my walk-in closet . @!SCOTT-PELLEY : The hundred @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : Mm-Hm. @!SCOTT-PELLEY : -- come from where ? @!ELISSA-MONTANTI : Bosnia , El Salvador , Liberia , Niger , Sierra Leone , Iraq , China , Indonesia , Pakistan , Haiti . Did I say Nepal ? @!SCOTT-PELLEY : How do you keep it running ? @!ELISSA-MONTANTI : On a prayer . @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : She simply begs and borrows from doctors and hospitals , whatever it takes . Shes traveled to the Middle East , arranging passports , cutting red tape and getting wounded children out one at a time . Word spread among soldiers in Iraq that an American charity called Global Medical Relief is a lifeline . @!ELISSA-MONTANTI : " We are working in Mosul. " @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : Now she gets a dozen e-mails a month from the war zone , most of which start with Dear Sir . @!ELISSA-MONTANTI : There are so many . @!SCOTT-PELLEY : How does -- who do these letters end ? @!ELISSA-MONTANTI : " Please help . " @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : It was an e-mail like that that started Waad on his journey with Elissa Montanti . And seven weeks after he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ repair his face . He walked into the hospital thanks to his new prosthetic leg . When you first met Miss Elissa , do you remember what she told you that she would do for you ? @(Waad-speaking-for) @!MAN-# 1 : He said they will help me to make surgery and fix my arm , leg . @!SCOTT-PELLEY : And make you whole again . @(Man-speaking-forei) @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : Doctor Alizadehs goal is to minimize the scar that runs from Waads scalp down to his chin . The surgery was done at North Shore University Hospital , which donated its facilities . @!ELISSA-MONTANTI : I love you Waad. @!DR-KAVEH-ALIZADEH : My plan today is to go ahead and expand the skin surrounding the scar , putting a sophisticated tissue balloon underneath the skin where the skin slowly stretches over time . @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : That sophisticated tissue balloon , implanted under his cheek , will be inflated gradually over the course of weeks . So , over time , theyre going to stretch his skin out essentially creating new skin . @!DR-KAVEH-ALIZADEH : Thats right . @!SCOTT-PELLEY : And then youre going @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ together ? @!DR-KAVEH-ALIZADEH : I -- I hope so . Thats the plan . @!SCOTT-PELLEY : Whats the best you can hope for ? @!DR-KAVEH-ALIZADEH : My goal with Waad is that the defects that he has will not be noticeable when he becomes a young man . @!SCOTT-PELLEY : And you have a great deal of confidence in that . @!DR-KAVEH-ALIZADEH : I do . @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : But Waads appearance would have to become much worse before he had a chance to get better . @(Waad-speaking-for) @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : During his time here , Elissa arranged for Waad to live alongside the three Haitian girls in temporary housing , a Jesuit retreat on Staten Island . Together , they formed a family , kids who did nt speak the same language helping each other though a painful experience . @!ELISSA-MONTANTI : Waad is coming around the bend . @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : Even with all the free care , Elissa spends about fifty thousand dollars a year on plane tickets and expenses . She raises it from donors , including Richmond County Savings , a Staten Island bank . But sometimes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ people who say , look , those kids are from overseas . And wed rather donate our money to kids here in the United States ? @!ELISSA-MONTANTI : Often . @!SCOTT-PELLEY : Its a big problem for you ? @!ELISSA-MONTANTI : Ive gotten hate mail , you know . @!SCOTT-PELLEY : Oh , my , hate mail . @!ELISSA-MONTANTI : Yeah . You know how can you help children from Iraq when theyre going to grow and just hate the United States . You should help the children here . @!SCOTT-PELLEY : And to those people you would say what ? @!ELISSA-MONTANTI : I say we do nt have landmines in this country , thank God . And these children are innocent . @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : Nearly three months into Waads treatment , the kids went to an amusement park . The balloons under Waads face had been successfully inflated . But , remember , we said things would get worse before they got better . @!WAAD : Good . @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : This was Waad in June . Imagine what it takes to be a stranger in America and place your @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Some people need courage for a roller coaster , but Waad sat right up front , to see what its like to be a kid again . @!DR-KAVEH-ALIZADEH : All right . Do you want to just bring him to the room straight ? @!MAN-# 3 : Give us a minute . @!WOMAN-# 2 : Ill take him in. @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : Two days later came his final surgery . @!WOMAN-# 3 : Waad , no -- no pain . @(Waffa-speaking-for) @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : Over two hours , Doctor Alizadeh removed the balloons from under Waads skin , cut out the scars and joined the new skin together . Plastic surgery requires months of healing , and in recovery Waad had a long way to go . @!WOMAN-# 4 : There you go . There , you can look at mommy . @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : But for the first time , his mother began to recognize the face she had nt seen in more than two years . @!ELISSA-MONTANTI : Oh , do nt cry . Happy , be happy , okay ? @!WAFFA : Thank you . Thank so much @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!SCOTT-PELLEY : Im curious why you do this . @!DR-KAVEH-ALIZADEH : I do this probably for the most selfish reason , which is that it feels good . What do you think ? @!ELISSA-MONTANTI : Well , my charity is very personal . It becomes a global family . All these children , I say " my children " so often , because I feel that that they are , I love all of them . Its more than just an organization that is giving a child a leg or fixing his face . These children go back as little ambassadors . And they tell their town , their village , who say how wonderful the American people are . @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : In early August , Waad had one more check-up with Doctor Alizadeh . Look at this face , he looks so much better , are nt you handsome . Waad you look so good . : His scars will continue to fade over time , but this isnt the end of Waads treatment . The plan is for him to come back from time to time @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ got a smile back . He s got a smile . And I think he un -- understands more English than he used to understand . @!WAAD : Yeah . @!SCOTT-PELLEY : Yeah . I know you understand a lot of it . : Four months after they arrived in America , Waad and his mother headed home to Iraq . Hard to say good-bye ? @!ELISSA-MONTANTI : Very hard . I cry all the time . @!SCOTT-PELLEY : You must worry that you wont see him again . @!ELISSA-MONTANTI : I do , because its always that worry what if ? You know , what if something happens while theyre in Iraq ? What if I cant do this anymore ? @!SCOTT-PELLEY-@1voi : A few weeks later , we checked in on Waad back in his neighborhood in Iraq . Thats him in the red shirt . We found the boy whod been disfigured and left to hop on one leg was back with a smile and a pretty solid kick . @!ANNOUNCER : Go to 60minutesovertime.com to hear from the first child Elissa Montanti ever helped @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the most popular sports in the country , and those who follow it on the national level , particularly college scouts and coaches , are familiar with St. Anthony of Jersey City , New Jersey , and its coach , Bob Hurley . Going into this season , St. Anthony had won twenty-three state championships and three national titles under Hurley , who is one of only three high school coaches ever inducted into the Basketball Hall of Fame . In nearly forty years at St. Anthony , Hurley has never earned more than a nine-thousand-dollar annual stipend , passing up lucrative college jobs to change lives in the inner city and to help save a small struggling Catholic school by putting it on a very big stage . @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : One night earlier this month , eight thousand people jammed the Rutgers Athletic Center to watch what was technically the North Jersey Non-Public Class B Finals . @!BOB-HURLEY : Have a good ball game . @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : But the game also happened to be for the national championship . It featured the number-one ranked St. Patrick of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Michael Gilchrist against one of the most storied programs in America . St. Anthony in Jersey City , and its legendary coach , Bob Hurley , ranked number two . @!BOB-HURLEY : Enjoy yourselves . Ready , everybody . Ready , one , two , three . @!CROWD-@1in-unison@ : Hard work . @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : Hard work was the mantra as St. Anthony broke the huddle , something they had been doing all year in preparation for this game . @!BOB-HURLEY : Were going to tight handle . @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : Their practices under Coach Hurley are famous for being among the most intense , grueling workouts in the country , at any level of the game . A basketball boot camp unsuited for the uncommitted or the politically correct . @!BOB-HURLEY : Go Josh , get him , get him . Get candy ass out . Sit down softie . Sit down softie. @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : Its the only coaching job Bob Hurley has ever had , and lots of things have changed in the thirty-nine years that he s been here . But he is not one of them . I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!BOB-HURLEY : For sure . In this day and age , Im still one of the most demanding people that the kids are going to come across . @!BOB-HURLEY : Catch it . Face the basket . Make a play . You just got to get up closer , you do nt just say screen , my God , where next ? @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : But this is not a story about a tyrannical coach who churns out athletes at some high school sports factory , its about values , loyalty , and commitment at a small inner city parochial school that does nt meet anyones idea of what a basketball powerhouse should look like . @!BOB-HURLEY : Step slide . @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : St. Anthony is in an old brick building with no gym , in a rundown neighborhood not far from the Jersey side of the Hudson River facing New York . There are only two hundred and forty students , most of them from families living below the poverty level , who somehow manage to scrape together the five thousand dollars tuition . And Sister Felicia , who runs @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ high as Coach Hurleys. @!SISTER-FELICIA : For the past seventeen years , one hundred percent of all of our seniors have been accepted into college . And were proud of that . @!STEVE-KROFT : Thats -- thats pretty remarkable record . @!SISTER-FELICIA : Yes , it is. @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : But all of this has been under threat for some time now . St. Anthony , like many parochial schools , is deeply in debt , and constantly struggling to keep its doors open . It has managed to succeed , so far , for one reason -- @!SISTER-FELICIA : I think every school has their own particular talent and ours obviously is basketball . @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : And in some ways St. Anthony is the Julliard of high school basketball , a place where the gifted and the promising enroll to learn the finer points of positioning , technique , ball movement , and endurance . They are not there to have fun ; theyre there to get better and to learn how to win from one of the masters . This is your program . Theres no mistake about that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ -- my fingerprint is on everything that we do . Ive had five NBA first round picks . Ive had about a hundred and fifty kids play Division 1 basketball . I think everybody can be better than they think they can be . And I do nt let them dictate , I dictate everything . @!STEVE-KROFT : Mm-Hm . Youre very tough and very demanding on these kids . @!BOB-HURLEY : But Im dealing with adolescent males . And in order to get them to perform on a regular basis , this group of -- group of people , I have to drive them . Theres no question I have to drive them . We would never be as good . Even the -- even the best teams Ive had , there has to be times when you know you have to really push the pedal . Youve never given a days effort in your life . Have you ever had a job ? @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : Hurley is something of an expert on adolescent males -- for twenty-eight years , his day job was working as a probation officer @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ their temptations as well as anyone , and he makes sure his kids stay on the straight and narrow . You make the kids sign a contract -- @!BOB-HURLEY : Yes . @!STEVE-KROFT : -- when they come here ? @!BOB-HURLEY : Do nt know that its legally binding , but in -- in , you know , when I have to mete out justice , its as far as Im concerned , its a legal document . Yeah , its up to nineteen , it was up to nineteen things now . @!STEVE-KROFT : What are some of them ? @!BOB-HURLEY : Alcohol , cigarettes , narcotics is one ; some of them are haircuts , short haircut . No tattoos . Jewelry has to be basic . You know , a ring , a -- a watch . @!STEVE-KROFT : You have drug test ? @!BOB-HURLEY : Ive -- Ive drug tested entire teams . @!STEVE-KROFT : Do you have rebels ? I mean , do you have people rebel against this ? @!BOB-HURLEY : Oh , yeah . Yeah , thats why I think thats why there @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ -- this is not meant for everybody . @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : Its meant for bright , talented kids who are committed to earning a college basketball scholarship and competing at the next level . @!BOB-HURLEY : Move your feet . Move your feet . @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : Everyone has to try out for the team , and Hurley does nt do any recruiting . Players or their parents seek him out because of his remarkable record . All of you come here because of Coach Hurley ? @!LUCIUS-JONES : Yes . @!MILES-MACK : Yes , sir . @!STEVE-KROFT : All of you ? @!CROWD-@1in-unison@ : Yes . @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : Over the years they have come from far and wide to attend St. Anthony . This years longest commute belongs to Jimmy Hall , who wakes up every morning at 6 AM in Brooklyn and travels by subway , bus and train across New York City and the Hudson to Jersey City , a commute that can take an hour and a half each way . His mother Noreen Wiggins , who raised her son in a single-parent home , thought St. Anthony @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for Jimmy to grow up . And Coach Hurley is just a part of the piece thats helping him to mature into a young man . @!STEVE-KROFT : Is this the most demanding situation he s ever been in ? @!NOREEN-WIGGINS : Yes , by all means . It is . It took a little while for him to realize that , no , Coach Hurley is not trying to kill you Jimmy . He is really trying to make you the best player you can be . @!STEVE-KROFT : Is it worth it ? @!JIMMY-WIGGINS : Yeah , its worth it . Very much so . @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : Senior guards Miles Mack , Lucius Jones , and junior forward Kyle Anderson , all knew exactly what to expect from Coach Hurley . @!KYLE-ANDERSON : He admitted to me today that he loses it every now and then . He pretty much puts the fear in your heart , you know , do nt mess up . But one thing that makes me pretty happy is when we see Mrs. Hurley come in . You know , thats when you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ coming to an end . Shes coming to save us. @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : Hurleys wife , Chris , has been St. Anthonys official score keeper for the past twenty-five years , and knows a lot more about basketball than the average fan . @!BOB-HURLEY : Jordan . ( INDISTINCT ) Keep the first run . @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : Together , the couple raised two of St. Anthonys greatest players -- Bobby Hurley Jr. , who went on to lead Duke to two national championships , and his younger brother , Danny , who starred at Seton Hall , and is now the head coach at Wagner College , where Bobby is his chief assistant . Did you feel he was harder on you than some of your teammates ? @!BOBBY-HURLEY-JR. : Yes , and I think almost everyone on my team would say that my dad went out of his way to -- to be harder on me just to kind of send the message that there was no favoritism on the team . So it -- it -- it would de -- it was real , Dad , you got to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I received I -- I think it strengthened the relationships I had with the other players . @!STEVE-KROFT : They felt sorry for you ? @!DANNY-HURLEY : I do nt know . I think they felt sorry for themselves some days , too . @!BOBBY-HURLEY-JR. : Yeah , they werent alone . @!DANNY-HURLEY : Yeah , I mean , we were all in it together . @!STEVE-KROFT : Of all your accomplishments , what are you proudest of ? @!BOB-HURLEY : Ive only had two kids in thirty-nine years that have not gone to college . And were extremely proud of that because we think that weve opened up doors in kids lives that they did nt know that they could do . Their families certainly did nt know that they could do it . And its as with -- because of education , it changes the direction of their life . @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : There were twenty-three of them playing college basketball this season -- five of them in the NCAA tournament for Pittsburgh- - @!MAN-# 1 : Travon Woodall gets an easy one . @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : Richmond , Villanova @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Coach Hurley would have been proud of that one out at St. Anthonys. @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : He could have left St. Anthony for the big time long ago . There have been any number of opportunities to coach at the college level . But he s never been that interested in money or glamour , and each time decided to stay put in Jersey City . @!BOB-HURLEY : Some people may say I just wasnt very ambitious . But , you know , I think my wife and I found that over the years you just found so many kids that were here that when they come into school , you saw something in them , this potential . And you wanted to see it out . And then four years would go by . And then theres another kid in there someplace , freshman sophomore . And then eight years have gone by . And all of a sudden its about twenty years in . And then people started talking to me about , you know , coaching at the college level . @!STEVE-KROFT : Do you regret that you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : No , absolutely not . But I do nt think I have a really -- I do nt -- I do nt think Im built for that . I think Im where Im supposed to be . I think Im good with this age and -- and Im good with city kids because , you know , I was a city kid . @!STEVE-KROFT : There are a lot of inducements for people to move on . Theres money . Theres the challenge of proving yourself at the next level . You werent interested in either of those things ? @!BOB-HURLEY : No . I -- I always felt it , you know , the challenge here was pretty strong . @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : Like the small school with no gym and no money and trying to raise the bar each year to maintain the level of success . St. Anthonys financial shortfall is 1.2 million dollars each year and Hurley is the engine that propels the fundraising effort . @!BOB-HURLEY : If you want to make a contribution this evening . @!MAN-# 3 : Okay . Thank you . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hits the speaking circuit -- @!BOB-HURLEY : Salary does nt change a great deal in this particular school . @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : -- runs all year basketball clinics with all the proceeds going to the school . @!BOB-HURLEY : One , two , three . @!CROWD-@1in-unison@ : One , two , three , hard work . @!BOB-HURLEY : Good job . All right . @!SISTER-FELICIA : He s indispensible . And in addition to helping us financially , he s a role model for the kids and a father figure . Because they know that he has stayed in the city . He has nt left them . Money was not something that attracted him . He was here to help them and kids appreciate that , families appreciate that . @!STEVE-KROFT : Would this school be here right now if it wasnt for Bob Hurley ? @!SISTER-FELICIA : Probably not . @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : Sister Felicia and the entire school were at Rutgers for the national championship game a few weeks ago , and it did not begin well for St. Anthony . @!BOB-HURLEY : Who got this ? Relax guys @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ roasted them in the first half . @!BOB-HURLEY : Stay in the game . ( INDISTINCT ) be strong with the ball . Its a long game , take control here . Keep the pressure on . @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : But after trailing most of the game , St. Anthonys superior conditioning , poise and coaching , finally turned the tide . @!BOB-HURLEY : Easy -- @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : They outscored St. Patrick 23 to 5 in the final quarter and won in a row . They closed out the season with their twenty- fourth state championship and fourth national title . It was the perfect ending for the season , and for our story . The players dreams had been realized , and the lessons well learned . @!BOB-HURLEY : Every eight seconds sprint we ran during the season , everything weve done , everyday Ive busted your chops , every study hall , does it all seem worth it right now ? Valuable lesson learned here . @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : As for Coach Hurley , he s not going anywhere , he s already plotting another championship season . @!BOB-HURLEY : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Felica expects him to be around for another fifteen years . @!BOB-HURLEY : Are you going to shoot the ball in the basket ? @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : -- so he can his twenty-month-old grandson , Gabe. @!BOB-HURLEY : Ready ? Shoot . @!STEVE-KROFT-@1voic : In fact , its already begun . @!BOB-HURLEY : Yes . @!MORLEY-SAFER : Now , Andy Rooney. @!ANDY-ROONEY : They are always doing studies , and therere a lot of studies , whatever a study is , that suggest that drinking some things that used to be thought to be bad for us are now considered good and drinks which were thought to be good are now considered bad . Its got so you do nt dare drink diet soda because researchers say that that can be damaging to your health . Well , I do nt pay much attention to any of these alarms because for that matter life can be dangerous to your health , particularly in large amounts . Another study I saw says that sweet drinks increase your blood pressure and your chances of getting fat . Well , Im @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a Coke once in a while ? Thirty years ago they were saying that people who drank a lot of coffee were more apt to increase their chances of getting cancer . Now , a study from Israel says that drinking three cups of coffee a day is good for you and good for your circulation and may even protect you against heart attacks . Ive never paid attention to any of the research and Im still alive and drinking a lot of coffee . I was in Israel once and that did nt kill me either . Experts have determined that an occasional glass of red wine may be good for us so you may catch me with a glass at dinner . My attitude is " drink up " because tomorrow they might say its bad . What Im really waiting for is a study that says a lot of ice cream lowers your cholesterol . I mean , Ill eat to that . @!MORLEY-SAFER : Im Morley Safer . Well be back next week with another edition of 60 MINUTES .

@@4090741 @!JOHN-KING-CNN-ANC: We begin tonight " Keeping Them Honest " with America 's first birther bill . Arizona lawmakers passed it . The bill 's sponsor freely admits he has doubts about President Obama 's citizenship . And Donald Trump , who is perhaps the loudest voice right now on the birther bandwagon , well , he was talking loudly again tonight . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!DONALD-TRUMP-CHAI: He should provide his birth certificate and he should do it soon , because say what you want , I am getting more calls and more letters and more support . Look at my polls . They 're through the roof . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!KING: Trump , by the way , has acquainted himself with the sponsor of this new bill in Arizona and you will hear from him , plenty from both men , in a moment . First , though , the bill itself . Barring a veto by Governor Jan Brewer , it takes effect in time for the 2012 presidential campaign . That said , well , listen to the incumbent . He does n't sound very worried . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!BARACK-OBAMA-PRES: I was born in Hawaii . @(APPLAUSE) @!OBAMA-: But I became @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ fact , in this interview last night with ABC 's George Stephanopoulos , Mr. Obama sounded distinctly like someone trying to turn the birther issue to his advantage . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!OBAMA-: Over the last two-and-a-half years , there 's been an effort to go at me in a way that is politically expedient in the short term for Republicans , but creates I think a problem for them when they want to actually run in a general election , where most people feel pretty confident the president was born where he says he was , in Hawaii . He does n't have horns . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!KING: So in that general election , this new Arizona law would require a presidential candidate to submit a certified copy of a long- form birth certificate . That includes at least the date and place of birth , as well as the names of the hospital and the doctor in attendance . Now , before going any further , we want to show you something , right here , President Obama 's birth certificate , that 's the official Hawaii document , it 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ them certificates of birth or birth certificates . The original is on file in Honolulu . Hawaii 's current Democratic governor , and this is important , the state 's former Republican governor , well , they both vouch for that document . It 's good enough for them . Good enough for the State Department to issue the president a passport . It 's the only kind of birth certificate copy they give out in Hawaii . But because it lacks the doctor and the hospital names , it appears not to be good enough under Arizona 's new law . Again the law would be in effect next year , but supporters say , supporters say it 's not about Barack Obama . That 's exactly what they said about a similar bill that failed to pass Arizona last year . Anderson spoke back then with State Representative Cecil Ash . And at the beginning of the interview , Ash said he believed the president was in fact born in Hawaii , but listen . He quickly got more and more doubtful . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!ANDERSON-COOPER-C: So why vote @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Well , Anderson , I think there 's been a lot of controversy over the issue . It 's created a division among a lot of people in the United States . And , for better or worse , many people do n't believe he is a U.S. citizen . They believe he has loyalties -- divided loyalties , I suppose you could say . @!COOPER: Right , but those people are wrong . I mean , he is a U.S. citizen . @!ASH: Well , you 're telling me that he 's wrong . I have never investigated that . If he is , then he has nothing to fear . @!COOPER: But -- but , I mean , that -- the information is out there . It has been released . It has been shown . There are some people who do n't believe it , but there are also some people who believe that the moon is made out of cheese . And you can say you have never investigated it , but I think you would probably say the moon is not made out of cheese @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ reason I spoke up on this bill is simply because there is a lot of division in the country . And I believe this would put an end to any future controversy about a president 's qualifications . @!COOPER: You told our producer you voted for this because you get a lot of calls from constituents with questions based on things they have read on the Internet . I mean , is n't it your job as a leader to actually lead , not to throw up your hands and say , well , who knows what 's real or not on the Internet , to actually say , well , actually , you know , Hawaii has released this information , and it 's factually correct ? @!ASH: Well , as I said , I have n't personally investigated that . But I -- I think that , if -- if ... @!COOPER: But , I mean , there 's plenty of things you believe that you have not personally investigated . @!ASH: That 's true . @!COOPER: Why , this , are you holding onto ? @!ASH: Well @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a presidential candidate to demonstrate he is qualified . And I do n't think having any presidential candidate -- candidate show that he 's qualified by demonstrating the requirements of the requirements , that there 's any problem with that . @!COOPER: You told my producer you thought the president spent a million dollars fighting the release of his birth certificate , and then that raised concerns for you . @(CROSSTALK) @!ASH: That 's what I have heard . As I said , it ... @!COOPER: Right . But that 's not -- you know that 's actually not true ? @!ASH: I -- I do n't know that that 's not true . As I said , I have n't studied it . You get a lot of information on the Internet . As you know , much of it is inaccurate . This has not been a focus of my attention for the last two years . But I know it is a matter of -- of controversy for many people . And I looked at this as simply a -- a means to end that controversy . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the president identified himself as a foreigner on his college application . @!ASH: Yes . @!COOPER: You know that 's not true , right ? @!ASH: I did n't know that that was not true . @!COOPER: That 's a story that was put out on April Fool 's Day . It 's a fake AP news story . @!ASH: Like I said , I -- I 'm reluctant to read anything I read on the Internet , including the evidence about his birth certificate . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!KING: Arizona State Representative Cecil Ash , who does n't believe what he reads on the Internet , except apparently birther conspiracy theories . A year later , a bill has passed on a new wave of birther talk . The loudest talker right now , Donald Trump , who has been talking endlessly , including tonight in Florida . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!TRUMP: Look , I feel strongly about the fact that Barack Obama should give his birth certificate , not a certificate of live birth , which is nothing , which is absolutely nothing . It 's too bad the titles are so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ but he 's got a certificate of live birth . A certificate of live birth is a much , much lower standard than a birth certificate . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!KING: In fact , as far as Hawaii is concerned and many other states and the U.S. State Department , that 's not true . @!Mr-Trump-also-clai# Joining us now , Arizona State Represent Carl Seel , who was the sponsor of this new legislation . And , Representative Seel , let me start straight up with this question . Why do you think we need this bill , and why now ? @!CARL-SEEL-@1R@2-A: Well , thank you for having me on , by the way . @!KING: You 're welcome . @!SEEL: Fundamentally , we have to enforce the Constitution , and oftentimes , what 's not in the debate is the standard for a U.S. president . It 's a higher standard than even the office I hold , that you must be a natural born U.S. citizen , not just a citizen . The State Department uses documents to determine citizenship for passports . @!KING: So , do you believe @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ just come out of the blue , I just thought I would sponsor this law this week . Do you believe the current president of the United States , President Obama , is not a natural born citizen of the United States ? @!SEEL: I have question of it . For example , the documents provided to the state of Arizona when Obama ran and provided -- the DNC provided their document to the state of Arizona certifying that 's their candidate , interestingly enough , they omit a statement that says that their candidate , Barack Obama , meets the constitutional standard of natural born status . And interestingly enough , our candidate , John McCain , the RNC submits a document that says specifically that John McCain does meet the constitutional standard . So I find that that 's rather fascinating , that there 's that discrepancy , and I have certified copies of those documents . That 's not something floating around on the Internet. @!KING: I do n't have those in front of me , but I take you at your word . @!SEEL: I do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ me . I also have covered a lot of campaigns and I know that when staffers fill out forms , they often do n't fill out the boxes correctly . I 'm sure I have done that ... @(CROSSTALK) @!SEEL: No , this is not a boxes thing . This is a certified copy form . This is not a box checking thing . @!KING: OK . So you do not believe the man who won the last election , and who is the current president of the United States , the commander in chief of U.S. troops overseas , you do n't think he 's qualified for the job ? @!SEEL: I -- what I believe is we 're not altogether sure . When you spend what the resources that you do and when our candidate , John McCain , readily produces his documents and ... @(CROSSTALK) @!KING: Your candidate , John McCain , also said he thought this is a bogus argument , to fight the president on his views on spending , fight him on taxes , fight him on his views on national security , but @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Well , I can appreciate that . But at the end of the day , defending our Constitution and enforcing our Constitution is something we should always be doing . @!KING: You have said and others who have gone down this road have said that you believe the president has spent millions of dollars fighting the release of his birth certificate . Do you believe that to be true ? @!SEEL: He is most certainly fighting the release of the certificate . What I find is also interesting , too ... @(CROSSTALK) @!KING: Do you think he 's spent millions of dollars fighting it ? @!SEEL: I 'm not exactly sure the actual dollar amount that he 's spending doing that or the resources he 's dedicating to that . But clearly the state of Hawaii has two different types of documents , the certificate of live birth and a long-form birth certificate . And to date , as I understand it , Mr. Obama has not produced the long-form birth certificate , which includes additional information that Mr. Trump referenced. @!KING: And you have said as part -- let @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ into the spending of the money , by the way . And the president has spent a lot of money from his legal campaign funds , just like Senator McCain did , essentially on ballot access and challenges and some of it , yes , fighting some lawsuits , but we do n't know anywhere near that entire number that get cited by many of his critics . I want to move on , though . You have said in pushing this bill that the Democratic governor of Hawaii , Neil Abercrombie , has admitted he ca n't find the certificate , correct ? @!SEEL: My understanding is the state of Hawaii indicates that they are not able to produce the long-form birth certificate . @!KING: But specifically the governor , do you believe he has said that ? @!SEEL: I believe that the state of Hawaii has indicated that they can not produce the long-form birth certificate . @!KING: In your state now , your Governor Brewer , has she given you assurances she will sign this into law ? @!SEEL: I believe that Governor Brewer will . As @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Prop 200 , which required that anyone registering to vote must demonstrate that they 're a U.S. citizen . So I believe based on her experience and willingness to enforce the law and stand fervently for that , I believe that she will sign this bill . @!KING: I went to Hawaii last year and I went to the hospital where Barack Obama was born , or in your view allegedly born , and you can go to the libraries and see the old yellow microfiche , the old yellow microfiche of the copies of the birth notices that the State Department says it sends to the newspapers and it lists the address of the building where his grandparents and his mother lived at the time . You think this is all a grand conspiracy theory ? @!SEEL: I think there are several questions . As mentioned earlier , Mr. Trump has several people on the ground investigating the situation and I imagine in the near future he will release his findings . @!KING: And if Mr. Trump says he has found no evidence that the president is not a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ if he ca n't prove that he 's right , would you withdraw your bill ? @!SEEL: Well , it will already -- Mr. Obama -- this bill is not about Mr. Obama . He 's drawn out the question , much like Megan 's Law draws out a question . We in legislatures typically create laws when an issue comes up . @(CROSSTALK) @!KING: He has drawn out ... @(CROSSTALK) @!KING: Has he drawn out the question or have people who want to question his legitimacy drawn out the question ? And let me ask it this way . Would we be having this conversation if Barack Obama were white or his middle name was n't Hussein ? @!SEEL: You know , I take offense that you 're trying to create a racial connection to it . @!Dr-King-who-was-a# @(CROSSTALK) @!KING: But he was on the ballot last time , whether he 's white or black or in between , he was on the ballot last time . The Republican Party , I 'm assuring you , spent a lot of money trying to find things to disqualify Barack Obama @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ right here , we have shown a copy on the screen , the certificate of live birth , the State Department takes it . It 's just hard for people to believe after all the investigations by news organizations , all the investigations by the Republican Party , that this one wo n't go away . @!SEEL: Well , the good news about my bill is in the absence of a long-form birth certificate , we 're using the Department of Defense 's standard to determine natural born status . And that 's as an outgrowth of a U.S. Supreme Court case . So I expect the ACLU and groups like that to probably readily sue over this . But I think we 're on excellent constitutional ground . @!KING: All right , well , I 'm not afraid tonight to say that I 'm a bit skeptical , but Carl Seel , we do appreciate your time . We appreciate your perspective . And you just mentioned the constitutionality . We have touched on it briefly . Let 's talk more about whether this bill , whatever you may @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that let 's bring in George Washington University Professor Jonathan Turley . Simple question , Mr. Turley . Do you think the Supreme Court , if this piece of legislation were ever to get there , constitutional ? JONATHAN @!TURLEY , CONSTITUTIONAL ATTORNEY , GEORGE W@!ASHINGTON UNIVERSITY : I do n't think it is . This is clearly a novel question . It has n't been presented in the federal courts . There 's arguments that can be made that Arizona is not imposing a new condition , but simply enforcing a condition in the Constitution . But I think that it is fatally flawed . Most importantly , I think it violates Article 4 , Section 1 of the Constitution , the full faith and credit clause . That 's the clause in which states are obligated to recognize documents like birth certificates of other states . Without that clause , everything would basically shut down in the United States . And here you have a state , Hawaii , that is saying this is it . We have certified . He was born here . And Arizona is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ proof along these lines . I think a federal court would have a real problem with that , because states could impose any number of such requirements . And there 's also the problem of states creating a patchwork of systems of requirements on the presidential office . The Supreme Court previously rejected term limits for members of Congress , and that 's not the identical case to be sure . But the Supreme Court distinguished between offices that are held by the people and offices that are determined by the states . And I think that the court would look askance at Arizona and other states grafting on these types of conditions . @!KING: Play devil 's advocate . If I were in Professor Turley 's class and you were saying argue the other side , argue that this is a good law and a constitutional law , how would you make your case ? @!TURLEY: Well , in deference to Mr. Seel , I think that obviously Article 2 does require that you be a natural born citizen . And I think what Arizona is likely to argue @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ immigration approach , is that we 're not imposing anything new , we 're not imposing a new condition to be satisfied . We 're simply asking for authentication of a condition that is set by the Constitution . And there 's some language that they can point to . I remember Justice Story made a statement about the right of states to require authentication , but he was actually making a broader point , that they have to recognize these documents . But this is not a frivolous point . It 's a point that has been long debated . But , by the way , what constitutes a natural born citizen has been the source of endless debate . It 's a term that we received from our British cousins and it is by no means clear as to what is the absolutely limits of that definition . @!KING: Let me ask lastly , the timing of this . This Arizona law , let 's assume the governor signs it . We 're in the middle of 2011 right now , in the first third of 2011 heading @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ way through the courts , in the 2012 presidential campaign , whether you think it 's a good idea or a bad idea -- I 'm speaking more to the people at home more than you , Professor Turley -- is there a possibility that he could get thrown off a ballot in Arizona or somewhere else , the president of the United States , and we could be litigating this in the middle of a campaign ? @!TURLEY: I think it 's doubtful , but I would say this is something that the Justice Department , the Obama White House have to take seriously . There 's 13 states moving along or down this road . I think part of the value for people pushing this is , frankly , the optics that President Obama is going to have to be seen in court fighting the requirement to produce a birth certificate . I think those optics are important here . And I think this is more politically than constitutionally driven . But I expect that as soon as this thing is signed , it is likely to see @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ think it 's going to receive that friendly of a reception from the federal court . @!KING: We will keep an eye on it . Jonathan Turley , Professor Turley , always appreciate your insights . Thank you , sir . And up next , money , politics and Medicare . The House Republicans pass a budget that radically , radically changes the way seniors would pay for health care . Good idea or bad ? Good politics or bad ? We will ask our great panel . And later , some especially troubling breaking news from the battle for Libya . Reports now that Moammar Gadhafi is targeting civilians , his civilian population with bombs designed expressly to kill and maim people . @!KING: " Raw Politics . " " Raw Politics . " The House today passed the Republican leadership 's 2012 budget proposal . It 's put together by Congressman Paul Ryan and sketches out upwards of $4 trillion in budget cuts over the next decade , replaces government Medicare payments with vouchers to buy private health insurance . Zero Democrats voted for it . And President @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ what he said to a group of donors in Chicago last night about recent budget talks with the Republicans . What the president did n't know , that there was an open mike nearby . @(BEGIN-AUDIO-CLIP) @!OBAMA-: You want to repeal health care ? Go at it . We 'll have that debate . You 're not going to be able to do that by nickel-and- diming me in the budget . You think we 're stupid ? We 're happy to have that debate . We will have the debate on the floor of the Senate or the floor of the House . Put it in a separate bill . We 'll call it up . And if you think you can overturn my veto , try it . But do n't try to sneak this through . @(END-AUDIO-CLIP) @!KING: That sound , by the way , courtesy of CBS Radio 's Mark Knoller , one of the hardest working guys in the business . Joining us now , senior political analyst David Gergen , Democratic strategist Maria Cardona , she is a former senior adviser to Hillary Clinton @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ editor of FrumForum.com . David , I want to start with you . The president , no bombshells there about his negotiations with the Republicans , but it does give a tone , it does give a tone of the budget conversation . So the House has passed it , David , where do we go from here ? @!DAVID-FRUM-FORMER: Well , I worry a lot that we 're heading to a future of continuing conflict of two years of continuing resolutions of making it very difficult to get budgets passed and of near death experiences , like the one that is coming next month when it comes time to raise the debt ceiling . Right now if you 're somebody , you have the sovereign debt fund of Norway who holds $10 billion or $12 billion worth of U.S. debt and you 're thinking about buying some more , you 're wondering will the Americans be paying interest after May 15 ? That 's kind of nervous making . There are deals to be done here , and the less painfully we do them , the less heartache we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , less heartache . David Frum is interested in less heartache . And I think that 's a responsible position to take if we can strike responsible deals . Maybe we will get there . But at the beginning of this debate , where you have the president saying scathing things about Paul Ryan . Paul Ryan saying scathing things about the president of the United States . Those are the two top voices , if you will , in this debate . Is that just show for their own partisan constituencies at the moment or does it tell us something about the lack of trust , lack of relationships in Washington ? DAVID @!GERGEN , CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST : I think the distrust and the rifts are growing deeper . I agree with what David Frum just said . And it 's very much in the country 's interest to reach some sort of compromise in the near term modest as it may be to help get us past this debt ceiling and get us continue spending for the government . But I think the real showdown is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that big changes are going to come after that , if they indeed do come . What has happened , John , is two things that are significant . The president is now off and running on his campaign and he 's using very partisan rhetoric that is angering the Republicans , stirring up his base . At the same time the Republicans have done something very , very important today , and that is the Paul Ryan bill has now been enshrined by this vote in the House of Representatives as Republican orthodoxy . It is now going to be I think the basis of the Republican campaign . I would imagine it would be in their platform and it 's hard to see how a candidate for the Republican Party could now run away from the Ryan approach without splintering the party . So I think the Republican Party has now deepened its commitment to the Ryan plan , it 's more than the Ryan plan , it 's the Republican , and I think that 's going to have real consequences in our politics . @!KING: David @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ voted against their party 's budget . Many thought maybe more would split because they were nervous about Medicare in the next campaign . Maria Cardona , to the Democrat in the group , the way Washington normally works is the Republicans have passed the budget , the House has passed a budget , now the Senate is supposed to pass one . One of the big questions in the Senate is what about all those Democrats who are up in 2012 who are vulnerable ? Where do we go in the Senate proposal , can they actually pass a budget , something that did not happen in the Democratic Congress last year ? What happens there especially on the big cutting issues of health care , Medicare ? @!MARIA-CARDONA-DEM: Well , I think absolutely they can pass a budget and I think what they can do clearly now is pass a budget , frankly very similar to what the president put forward that makes a very stark comparison to the priorities and to the interests of the Republican Party vs. what Democrats want to do . What this now @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is that they would rather protect millionaires and billionaires in this country with trillions of dollars in tax giveaways and tens of billions of more dollars in tax giveaways to the biggest corporations in this country , who by the way ExxonMobil made more than a quarter of trillion dollars in profits its last quarter , than to be able to give seniors the Medicare and Medicaid and to give children Head Start and to give working class and middle class families the support that they need in this recession . It 's a stark contrast and I think Democrats are ready for that fight . @!KING: There 's a stark contrast , and I hope both parties are ready for the debate . David Frum , to you first . Then I want to bring David Gergen on this point . This could be a great educational debate for the country , or we can say , you know , you crazy liberals and you crazy conservatives and fight it out by pointing fingers at each other and using parties . But do you think there 's any chance @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ government program where you go in , you get your health care and the government pays for it or should it be , as Paul Ryan proposes , essentially a set piece of money ? He does n't like the term voucher , but essentially a voucher . You use that voucher to buy a private health insurance plan , and you better go out and find a good one , because unlike the government your coverage will be determined by that plan . We could have a great debate here about the proper role and the reach of government , including in the health care debate . Will we get it ? Or we will get partisan finger pointing ? @!FRUM: Well , I do n't think we 're going to get that debate . And the Ryan plan actually does n't really start that debate in the way you want to have it , because all of the things it does to Medicare , as opposed to Medicaid , happen 10 years from now . So the idea that today 's 54-year-olds are going to turn 65 some @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ needed to pay for health care like their elder brothers and sisters got and say , well , that 's disappointing , but so Paul Ryan said 11 years ago , and the words of Paul Ryan are obviously binding forever , so I 'm not going to join with my fellow 54-year-olds and press Congress to increase the voucher . Of course that 's what they will do . So it does n't really help us . We need to solve this problem now and we need to deal with Medicare spending now . And that means that people who are over 65 are going to have to be in the game . The key to survival for Republicans , and I endorse so much of what Paul Ryan wants to do . I think a 25 percent top rate of income tax is a great idea . You do the tax thing on the tax side and the medical thing on the medical side . You pay for your lower top rate by eliminating deductions and by raising excise taxes and raising energy taxes . And you deal @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ As Bill Clinton showed and as George Bush knew , that when you allow those things to commingle , Republicans do not win . They win when those accounts are kept clearly separate . Tax reform is one thing , health care reform something else . @!KING: So David Gergen , I 'm going to give you the last word , but Maria Cardona first . Mr. Frum just laid out a case there . Maria , will you take him on that negotiation ? Should Democrats say hey this guy Frum has got a pretty good idea , let 's negotiate on those grounds or will we just fight this out and Democrat will try to take advantage ? And Republicans had pretty gains among senior voters in 2010 . Will this become payback in 2012 ? @!CARDONA: Well , I think it depends on whether Republicans take David 's advice , because what we have seen from this president is that he is willing to negotiate . He is willing to bring everybody to the table . In fact , in the last couple of negotiations , he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have also been willing to negotiate . What we have seen the problem here is the GOP caucus and their Tea Party . The Tea Partiers are not willing to negotiate , they are not willing to compromise . They do not know how to govern . They 're not going to let Boehner do any of that . So I think it 's on them the fact that we are not going to have this constructive debate that I do think the American people deserve . @!KING: So , David Gergen , again , you get the last word here . And the question is leadership . And I could frame it as a question of presidential leadership , but Maria makes an important point . There are two people who matter most here , the Democratic president of the United States and the Republican speaker of the United States , whose DNA , John Boehner 's DNA is to be a legislator . Does he have the freedom , or is Maria right , and is this a case where the president should again -- and you have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ let them fight it out for a while and come in at the end , or should he try to get in right now ? @!GERGEN: I think the president and John Boehner both need to be involved with this . I think we need a very intensive set of negotiations between now and the deadline on this debt ceiling . It 's extremely important to the national financial security of this country that we get this resolved peacefully . We could have a great debate , John . We should have a great debate . It 's important . These are central issues . But the demagoguery we 're seeing right now is intense . You know , it was only a few months ago the Democrats were rightly screaming when Republicans said that Obama care was going to bring death panels , and the Democrats screamed that was unfair . Today we have Democrats talking about Paul Ryan and saying his plan , there are going to be deathtraps for seniors . And the Republicans are screaming , as they should , because that 's such demagoguery . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ seeing -- we saw it in the first story of this show about the birthers , is there is a certain madness in the air right now . There 's a certain -- there 's a distemper in our politics that -- that is making this extremely difficult to reach what is critically important for the country . @!KING: The more things change , the more they remain the same , I guess . We 'll continue the conversation . David Frum , Maria Cordova , David Gergen , thanks for your help tonight . Up next , breaking news on the battle for control of Libya . Evidence Moammar Gadhafi 's forces are using cluster bombs on Misurata . Cluster bombs , nasty weapons . Most countries have outlawed them . Up next , we 'll find out why . And a bit later , we 've seen undercover videotape of how some animals are treated by meat processors . Now there 's a move by some of those companies to make those tapes illegal . What are they trying to hide or might they have a point ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ news now out of Libya . The world has watched in horror as Moammar Gadhafi has used deadly force against people who have not -- not -- taken up arms against him . Now there are reports he 's firing cluster bombs on residential areas in the city of Misurata . Cluster bombs are simply devastating . They can kill a lot of people quickly , which is why most nations have outlawed their use . In just a moment , we 'll explain exactly how they work . Today , the group Human Rights Watch released photographs -- you see them right there -- it says are remnants of cluster bombs that Gadhafi forces fired on Misurata Thursday night . The group says some of the bomb material landed near a Misurata hospital . Tonight , the Gadhafi government denies using cluster bombs , but its tanks rolled through the streets of Misurata today , pounding rebels and civilians with artillery and heavy mortar fire . A short time ago , I spoke to CNN 's Frederick Pleitgen , who is in Tripoli and with retired major general James @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the U.S. Army intelligence center . @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @!COOPER: Fred , we have confirmation today that cluster bombs , a nasty weapon , being used by the Gadhafi regime in Misurata . You asked the government spokesman about these attacks . What did they tell you ? @!FREDERICK-PLEITGEN: Well , I certainly did ask Moussa Ibrahim @(ph) , who is the spokesperson for the Libyan government , and he told me that these reports are absolutely untrue , that Libya is not using these weapons . He also reiterated what he 's been saying for a very long time , that the Libyan army apparently tries to do everything to prevent civilian casualties , and that it ca n't use these munitions , simply because the world is watching , he said . That 's , of course , something that we 've heard from the Libyan government before in other cases that has been seen later to be untrue . @!KING: Certainly has been seen to be untrue . An excellent point there by Fred . General Marks , help somebody out there watching who 's not familiar with a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and what it can do . @!GEN-JAMES- " SPIDER " : Cluster bombs are designed primarily to be used against armored or tank mechanized formations . It 's a number of bombs within a bomb . It can be delivered from the air . It can be delivered by artillery . What happens if you have one explosion that then releases a number of sub-munitions from that . So it covers a very broad area , and it forces these mechanized formations to either go around , and it channelizes their activity away from where these cluster bombs are located . So it clearly is not a weapons system to be used in a built- up area , like cities and , clearly , it 's against international law to use these things against civilians . @!KING: You make that point about international law . A lot of nations have sworn these off completely . The United States does have some , though , in its military arsenal , right ? Meant to be used against tanks ? @!MARKS: It is . Absolutely . And that 's why the United @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Fred , you 've been in Misurata , and you have seen not only the siege in that city , but the tactics being used by the Gadhafi regime forces . Take us inside . @!PLEITGEN: Yes , the tactics and especially the weapons that are used by the Gadhafi forces . I was in downtown Misurata and we actually had a good overview of the situation there . And we saw tanks inside the city center . We saw tanks firing inside the city center . Also , there 's some taller buildings inside Misurata with some snipers on it that we could actually see here at Kouli @(ph) from our position . And then there 's other sort of bigger caliber weapons that have we seen them fire inside the city , as well , things like mortars , things like artillery . And they 're using them inside the city of Misurata . But they 're also using them to shell the port area of Misurata , which of course , makes it very , very difficult for any ships to try and come in there . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Both to get goods inside to keep the people there alive and also to get wounded people and civilians out of the city . @!KING: And so General Marks , we 've seen NATO having a bit of a family feud , a tug of war over strategy . Will the revelation that the Gadhafi regime is using cluster bombs -- again , they deny it , but we have evidence there are cluster bombs being used in Misurata -- how will that , if it will , intensify the urgency of NATO 's discussions ? @!MARKS: It clearly needs to get NATO focused in on what are the full array of capabilities that they can bring to bear against Gadhafi ? Clearly , NATO forces have chosen a side here , and they are here to support the rebels . And Gadhafi has to go , irrespective right now of who 's going to possibly replace him . So NATO really needs to ratchet it up based on this evidence that we see right now . @!KING: And do you think -- the United States has stepped into a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ would be pressure on the United States to get more involved up front , and if Gadhafi 's forces are using cluster bombs in a close-in , residential area , how do you take them out ? @!MARKS: You do n't take them out with the rebel forces , first of all . They 're not equipped to do it . And NATO from the air is not equipped to do it . Clearly , this is an example of where boots on the ground are absolutely necessary to achieve an end state of protecting the civilians in Libya . And right now that 's not only the table . It should be . King : You say it should be . I can tell you at the White House they say it absolutely will not be . So they obviously will have a continued debate within the NATO alliance about this as these heinous weapons are used . And to that point , Fred Pleitgen , yesterday you had President Obama , the French president Sarkozy , the British prime minister Cameron stressing Gadhafi must go . And they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ there is no indication that the Libyan leader is feeling the pressure . In fact , he seems to be as defiant as ever . @!PLEITGEN: Well , he certainly does . And the pictures that you 're seeing on Libyan TV certainly seem to indicate that , as well . Of course , showing Gadhafi riding in an open vehicle riding around -- around Tripoli here , sort of out of the sunroof , pumping fists to his supporters there . You later had Gadhafi 's daughter who was on television , as well , there , giving a speech to supporters , saying it 's absolutely not in the cards for Gadhafi to step down and it 's even outrageous for people to think that he would step aside . But certainly at this point in time , it does n't look like there 's any indication , even , that Gadhafi will be able to relinquish power or even give up some of his power . @!KING: Fred Pleitgen in Tripoli . General Marks , thanks to you , as well . Take care , gentlemen . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " The New York times " experienced first hand the horror of what 's happening in Libya . They were kidnapped in Ajdabiya last month and held for six days by Gadhafi 's forces . Steve Farrell , Tyler Hicks , Lynsey Addario and Anthony Shadid were bound , beaten and repeatedly threatened with death . In our next hour , Anderson has a special edition of 360 . He speaks exclusively with the journalists who fully expected to die . Here 's a preview . @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @!ANTHONY-SHADID- " N : I do n't know how my colleagues felt , but I remember it was n't panic necessarily . It was n't that kind of a desperation of flailing about , that you 're about to be killed . It was almost that , you know , it 's hard to describe other than calling it resignation or emptiness that , you know , that the moment 's drawing near . And you 're kind of waiting for it . @!LYNSEY-ADDARIO- " N : There 's nothing you can do . You ca n't -- you 're literally captive , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ can shoot you . So it 's almost easier to just not move and say , " OK , I might die right new . " And you resign to the fact that this could be the end . @!COOPER: It sounds stupid , but you see that moment in movies , the people lined up , put on the ground and then shot , and you always kind of think , why do n't they run or do something ? But ... @!ADDARIO: There 's no point . I mean , what 's the point ? It will just be more violent . I mean , you know , I think your better chance is to just hope that they take pity on you for being so terrified . You know , I mean , I think we all just assumed we were about to die . And I mean , for me I just said OK . If this is the worst thing that 's going to happen to us , I probably wo n't feel it , you know ? I mean , it will probably be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " Captured in Libya , " Anderson 's exclusive interview with the former journalists from " The New York Times " in our next hour here on " 360 . " Coming up , though , farm animals horrifically abused . Their torture caught on tape . But now America 's industrial farmers claim they are the real victims , and they 're fighting back . Why videotaping animal cruelty could soon be a crime . And tornadoes and heavy rain storms continue to pound the south . The latest on today 's expensive damage when 360 comes back . @!KING: Tonight , animal abuse on America 's farms . You 've seen the video , undercover exposes shot by animal rights groups . The images , like the ones we 're about to show you , so graphic we have to warn you they might be difficult to watch . In Ohio , for example , calves crammed into cages barely bigger than their bodies , some of them too weak to stand . In Iowa , chickens thrown into bins so violently , workers say their legs and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ past several years , hidden-camera investigations like these have led to massive recalls of contaminated eggs and meat , sometimes even criminal convictions of the workers responsible . But now the industrial farmers , well , they 're fighting back . They say these so-called whistleblowers are the real criminals . And with the support of lawmakers in Florida , Minnesota and Iowa , all big agricultural states , they 're pushing to ban videos and photos taken without their permission . Legislation in the works would also make it illegal to lie on a work application to get into these agricultural facilities . " Keeping Them Honest , " why does n't big agriculture want you to see how it operates ? In a statement to AC 360 today , the Iowa Poultry Association said , quote , " Our intent has ever been , nor will it ever be to stymie the reporting of true abuse or neglect . " Instead , the association insists it is protecting the world food supply from extremists determined , it says , to end animal farming once and for all . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ She 's the host of HLN 's " ISSUES WITH JANE @!VELEZ-MITCHELL , " and with CNN legal analyst Sunny Hostin for a closer look . @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @!KING: Jane , to you first . Proponents of this Iowa legislation say , no , no , no , it 's not about stopping whistleblowers from reporting abuses . It 's about keeping people who misrepresent the true purpose of the farmers from getting hired and stopping them from using access to make videos which these proponents claim they end up using for fundraising purposes . You buy that ? @!JANE-VELEZ-MITCHEL: That 's absolute nonsense . The fact is we need to be asking what are these people trying to hide ? Why are they so desperate to keep cameras out of these factory farms ? And I 'll tell you why : because they do n't want the American people to see what 's really going on . It is America 's secret shame . Almost 10 billion farm animals raised and killed for food every year in horrific conditions . This is institutionalized torture and institutionalized sadism . John , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ much video of it . Most people have no idea . They think , " Oh , Babe 's rolling in the hay somewhere in some barnyard . " No , pigs are kept in gestation crates the size of their bodies , never able to turn around , even scratch themselves . They have intelligence comparable to dogs , and they become psychotic . Now , this is what they do n't want you to see . What 's really going on in these factory farms is a crime . @!KING: And so Sunny , when you hear the passion like that , let 's break down the legal arguments here . A long history in this country , going back more than a century , undercover investigations . Sunlight is the greatest disinfectant . A lot of these investigations reveal abuses in agriculture . However , these farms also have private property rights , do they not ? Is this constitutional ? @!SUNNY-HOSTIN-CNN-: Well , I think it probably is n't constitutional , actually . And I think the free speech of the American people to know what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on , is really , really implicated here . Bottom line is there are laws against people editing inappropriately . There are laws against slander . There are laws against defamation . So the premise of this bill is that they 're saying , " The reason we need it , John , is because people are editing things ; people are lying . " Well , there are laws about that . So I think the very premise of these bills are really disingenuous . Why not then sort of up the ante for people that do do this sort of disingenuous editing ? Instead of doing that , there 's a lack of transparency here with this bill . They 're saying even if what is being filmed is accurate , it would be illegal for doing it . That is troubling . It 's troubling not only for whistleblowers ; it 's definitely troubling under the First Amendment . I have a real problem with what 's going on here . @!KING: So you 're both very , very passionate about this , and that is obvious @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a second . Do n't the farms have rights here , including to protect themselves from potential fraud ? @!VELEZ-MITCHELL: Look , imagine if there was a nursing home and there was elderly abuse going on . Would n't you want to be able to get a hidden camera in there ? Imagine if there was a daycare center , and there was child abuse going on . And remember , the USDA inspectors , they 're falling down on the job here . The Hallmark slaughterhouse in 2008 , it was the HSUS undercover cameras that found out that they were pushing downed cows with fork lifts to slaughter , in violation of the law , because downed cows have a higher likelihood of having disease , including Mad Cow Disease . It was n't the USDA inspectors who were standing right there who figured that out . That resulted in the largest beef recall in U.S. history for human health . So animal cruelty and threats to human health , there are two things we have to think about here . We , the American people , deserve @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . And shame on them for trying to keep us out . @!KING: Well , that last point Jane makes on it is the case that Iowa State Senator Matt McCoy , a Democrat , makes . He says a bill like this could set a dangerous precedent . Does he have a point . Could it open the door to abuses we do n't uncover that jeopardize food safety ? @!HOSTIN: I think there 's no question , because we know as a result of these undercover investigations , as Jane just mentioned , certainly there have been food recalls . Certainly , there have been abuses of animal cruelty that have been uncovered . So I think there 's no question that there is real value to these undercover investigations . And again , the First Amendment certainly is implicated . Why not be good corporate citizens ? Why do n't the farmers want us to be there ? Why not be transparent ? When there is this lack of transparency , that is where the problems lie . That is , I think , the real crime @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you both . @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!KING: Still ahead , deadly storms tear across the south . At least ten people killed , major damage . It 's not over yet . Also ahead , a new twist in the search for a serial killer on Long Island , New York . A man makes a horrible call to the family of one of the victims -- get this -- from her own cell phone . That 's next . @!KING: Let 's get the latest on some other stories we 're tracking tonight with Joe Johns . @!JOE-JOHNS-CNN-COR: Hey , John . Tornado warnings and watches are blanketing the south tonight as powerful storms rip across Mississippi and Alabama and move into Georgia . States of emergency have been declared in Mississippi , Oklahoma , and Alabama , where at least one person has died . Nine other people were killed by storms in Arkansas and Oklahoma yesterday . In New York , the mother of a woman found dead on Long Island says a man used her daughter 's cell phone to make calls to the family , claiming he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ eight settles of remains discovered on Long Island since December . Japanese officials today ordered owners of the Fukushima Daiichi power plant to pay up to $12,000 to households disrupted by the nuclear accident . So far , more than 146,000 people have been directly affected by the disaster , putting initial payments at about $600 million . And founders of the three largest online poker sites have been indicted on bank fraud and money laundering charges . The indictment alleges the offshore companies got around gambling laws by disguising payments to make it look like U.S. Residents were buying everything from jewelry to golf balls from fake online stores . John , it was n't long ago that people in Washington were talking about legalizing online gambling . I 'm shocked they 're trying to go around the rules . My goodness . Thanks , Joe . Who knew ? Thanks , Joe , have a great weekend . And thank you for watching . I 'm John King . " A 360 Special : Captured in Libya , " that 's next .

@@4090841 @!TERRELL-BROWN: Slammed Again : Mother Nature 's furious assault continues overnight with another round of powerful storms in the heartland . Palin 's Plans : Speculation heats up as the former Alaska governor takes another step towards a presidential run . And , Her Turn : Nine years later , Elizabeth Smart finally gets the chance to confront her tormenter . This is the CBS MORNING NEWS for Thursday , May 26 , 2011 . And good morning , everyone on this Thursday . I 'm Terrell Brown , in for Betty Nguyen . Another night of severe weather and more tornadoes in the country 's midsection . Overnight , there were tornado warnings and watches in a dozen states from Texas to Mississippi and the Ohio River Valley . At least , eighty-one tornadoes reported yesterday . No reports of deaths . But dozens were injured in Missouri and Indiana . It 's been four days since much of Joplin , Missouri , was wiped out by one monster twister . At least , one hundred twenty-five people were killed and more than nine hundred injured . Randall Pinkston is in Joplin with the latest . Randall , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . That search and rescue effort is inevitably transitioning into recovery . A team of federal pathologists assisting a local coroner 's office in identifying bodies . Meanwhile , the weather system continues to bring destruction throughout the region . @(Begin-VT) @!RANDALL-PINKSTON: The nation 's heartland is getting pounded , again . @!WOMAN-# 1 : It sounded horrible . I did n't even know if we were going to have a house . @!RANDALL-PINKSTON: For a fourth straight day , powerful thunderstorms roared across several states with tornadoes touching down in Indiana and Missouri . @!MAN-# 1 : All of a sudden felt this pressure and the wind came up and my mother-in-law says , hey , there goes the roof , there goes there garage . @!RANDALL-PINKSTON: Residents in Fredericktown , Missouri , inspected the damage after a storm ripped through their neighborhood . In Indiana , the fury of one twister was enough to topple this semi and tear homes to shreds . The violent system followed Tuesday 's outbreak in Arkansas , Oklahoma , and Kansas that left more than a dozen people dead . In Piedmont @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ dream home in a matter of seconds . @!JIMMY-ZIMMERMAN: I -- I know it 's gone a be a year before I get to live in it again . @!RANDALL-PINKSTON: Here in Joplin , Missouri , hope is fading fast . Rescues found no survivors yesterday , but the search continues . Cell phones here are working again . Authorities say that could reduce the number of missing now in the hundreds . You grew up here ? @!MAN-# 2 : With my grandparents . @!RANDALL-PINKSTON: The shock is still wearing off for residents in Joplin , and while it 's tough , they say they 've been touched by the outpouring of support . @!WOMAN-# 2 : Do n't even know them , they were hugging you and helping you , and coming from all over . @!RANDALL-PINKSTON: The community will also have a chance to come together at a memorial service Sunday , to remember those who lost their lives . @(End-VT) @!RANDALL-PINKSTON: And amid the destruction , a sign of hope here in Joplin , the officials of St. John 's Hospital , which was destroyed by @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to you , Terrell. @!TERRELL-BROWN: Randall Pinkston in Joplin this morning . Randall , thank you so much . And among the newly confirmed victims in Joplin , a sixteen-month-old Skyler Logsdon . His body was identified yesterday . The toddler vanished when the twister hit on Sunday . His red shirt and pants found wrapped around a telephone pole . A Facebook page about him drew more than tens thousand visitors . Skylar 's mother remains hospitalized with severe injuries . It 's been six days now of relentless -- the violence of a tornado is hard to comprehend until you see something like this . A tractor trailer on the road in Shawnee , Oklahoma , taking a direct hit on Tuesday and shredded to bits . The driver had stopped , not knowing what to do . He suffered minor injuries . It 's been six days now of relentless tornado action , part of the deadliest tornado season in almost sixty years . So far this year there have been at least one thousand two hundred twenty-eight twisters . More than five people have been killed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ an entire tornado season . This morning the Senate is scheduled to take a final vote on a four-year extension of the Patriot Act . Three provisions of the anti-terrorist law expire at midnight tonight . Assuming it passes , the legislation will be flown to Europe for President Obama 's signature . Yesterday , the Democratic-led Senate voted down that Republican -- controversial Republican proposal to privatize Medicare . The plan was introduced by Congressman Paul Rand and has becoming election rally cry for Democrats . It would replace traditional Medicare with the voucher system for beneficiaries now age fifty-four and younger . In other political news this morning , more speculation that former Alaska governor Sarah Palin will make a run for the White House . Tara Mergener is in Washington with more on that . Tara , good morning to you . @!TARA-MERGENER: Good morning to you , Terrell . There are no definitive answers this morning but there are clues she may be inching toward that White House run . @(Begin-VT) @!TARA-MERGENER: The latest fuel to the fire is a documentary that has n't even been @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ about Palin 's term as governor of Alaska . It premieres next month in Iowa , whose caucuses open the nominating contest . Speculation over Palin 's political plans quieted down a bit when she dropped out of the national spotlight earlier this year . But she restarted the rumor machine last week on FOX News . @!SARAH-PALIN-: And I want to make sure that America is put back on the right track . And we only do that by defeating Obama in 2012 . I have that fire in my belly . @!TARA-MERGENER: Then , there 's the house . Palin has reportedly purchased this 1.7 million dollars home in Scottsdale , Arizona . Aides have suggested it could be a campaign headquarters if she moves forward . She has also reshuffled her staff , rehiring some who worked with her in 2008 , and she 's expected to soon , as early as this weekend , resume a series of public appearances to raise her profile . @!JAN-CRAWFORD: The speculation now has turned . Sarah Palin could get in that race . People are suggesting that would be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ GOP field , while not settled , appears to be taking shape . But none of declared candidates have strong tea party ties , which is the core of Palin 's support . @!SARAH-PALIN-: And you 've the God -- @(End-VT) @!TARA-MERGENER: And while Palin does have a loyal following among conservatives , she remains a divisive figure in the general public . Terrell , she 'll face some challenges for sure , if she runs . @!TERRELL-BROWN: She sure will . Tara Mergener in Washington . Tara , thank you so much . Meanwhile , a lawyer for former Senator John Edwards says a federal investigation into Edward alleged misuse of campaign funds is without merit . The lawyer calls the case , quote , " wrong on the facts and wrong on the law . John Edwards has done nothing wrong in his life or has do n't wrong in his life rather and he knows it better than anyone , but he did not break the law . " The Justice Department has been investigating whether the two- time presidential candidate used campaign funds to cover up @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . President Obama arrives in France this morning to attend the G8 Summit of wealthy nations . The President left for France following his visit to England . On the agenda for the two-day G8 meeting -- the uprisings in the Arab world , the nuclear disaster in Japan and regulation of the internet . Just ahead on THE MORNING NEWS , get ready for a world without wallets . Plus , why the man accused of January 's shooting rampage in Arizona will not be trialed . This is the CBS MORNING NEWS . @(ANNOUNCEMENTS) @!OPRAH-WINFREY-@1Th: I wo n't say good- bye . I will just say , until we meet again . @!TERRELL-BROWN: And with that , she 's gone . Oprah Winfrey ended twenty-five years of her top-rated TV Talk show on Wednesday speaking about what her fans have meant to her . Over the years she drew a huge audience with celebrity interviews and confessional appearances . Now she 'll focus on trying to build the audience for her Oprah Winfrey cable network . Here in New York , Dominique Strauss-Kahn has a plush new place @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ head of the International Monetary Fund was taken from a temporary apartment , Wednesday to a fourteen millions dollar townhouse in a stylish downtown neighborhood . Strauss-Kahn is under house arrest accused of trying to rape a hotel maid earlier this month . Accused Tucson gunman Jared Lee Loughner wo n't be going to trial for shooting Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords and a dozen others , at least not yet . Yesterday , a judged ruled the twenty-two-year-old Loughner is mentally incompetent . The case was put on hold . Before the ruling , federal marshals had to drag Loughner out of the courtroom after he disrupted the proceedings . He mumbled what sounded like , " thank you for the freak show . She died in front of me . " U.S. Attorney believes he will eventually face justice . @!DENNIS-BURKE-@1U.S: We 're going to make every step we can to ensure that this individual goes to trial for the crimes that the grand jury found he committed . @!TERRELL-BROWN: For now , Loughner will be held in a federal facility in Missouri . His next hearing is set for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sentenced to two life terms in prison for the abduction and rape of Elizabeth Smart in June of 2002 . In court , Smart confronted Mitchell for the first time . Kendis Gibson reports . @(Begin-VT) @!KENDIS-GIBSON: Elizabeth Smart has begun a new chapter of her life . @!ELIZABETH-SMART-@1: It 's been a huge miracle in my life that I can be standing in front of you here today . @!KENDIS-GIBSON: A federal judge sentenced Brian David Mitchell to spend the rest of his life in prison for kidnapping Smart nine years ago , and holding her captive . Mitchell closed his eyes and sang hymns while Smart , now twenty-three-years-old , confronted him in court . She told him , he took away nine months of her life that can never be returned . And that she will have a good life , despite what he did to her . @!ELIZABETH-SMART: One day he will have to be responsible for his actions . @!KENDIS-GIBSON: Smart was fourteen-years-old when Mitchell took her at knifepoint from her Salt Lake City bedroom . During his trial last year , she described how @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ during the ordeal . Her testimony helped convict Mitchell of kidnapping and sex crime charges . @!ELIZABETH-SMART: Brian David Mitchell knew exactly what he was doing when -- when he kidnapped me and all the events that followed . @!KENDIS-GIBSON: Smart is getting on with her life . She just recently returned from a Mormon Mission to France , and she plans to finish college . @!ELIZABETH-SMART: I am looking at all the different possibilities . I 'm trying to decide where I can make the biggest difference . @!KENDIS-GIBSON: Smart is also considering a career in law , to help other crime victims like herself . Kendis Gibson , CBS News , Salt Lake City , Utah . @(End-VT) @!TERRELL-BROWN: CBS MoneyWatch time now on a Thursday , a good day for stocks in Asia . Ashley Morrison here in New York with that and more . Ashley , good morning to you . @!ASHLEY-MORRISON: Good morning to you , Terrell . Well , Asian markets rebounded today as worries eased over Europe 's debt crisis . Japan 's Nikkei gained almost one and a half percent While Hong @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ price of oil also rose to nearly a hundred and two dollars a barrel . Today , Wall Street gets the weekly jobless claim numbers , and the latest measure of GDP . On Wednesday , stocks snapped their losing straight . The DOW gained thirty-eight points while the NASDAQ added fifteen . Nearly a third of all homes sold last quarter were in foreclosure . The average sale price was a hundred and sixty-eight thousand dollars . That 's about twenty-seven percent lower than a home not in foreclosure . Once again , Nevada , California , and Arizona had the highest percentage of foreclosure sales . You may want to do your Christmas shopping now because toy prices are expected to go up in the coming months . China , which is struggling with high inflation , is raising prices on U.S. toymakers including Hasbro and Mattel . It will soon be a lot easier to bank using just to your phone . Bank of America , JP Morgan Chase , and Wells Fargo are teaming up to launch a service called Clear Exchange . It will allow @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ e-mail address , removing the hassle of tracking down a routing or account number . The service , which should be available in the coming months is widely seen as a major challenge to PayPal . Ahead of that , Google will unveil its own mobile payment service today . It will be available on phones from Sprint Nextel . The service will let consumers with specifically equipped phones that have Google 's android operating system pay for items and redeem coupons at cooperating stores . And Terrell , pretty soon everything is going to be right there in your cell . Better not lose it . @!TERRELL-BROWN: Right . Well , it 's like a dream come true for shoppers . Well , actually , I know of one in the studio with me this morning , Ashley . Her name 's Ashley . @!ASHLEY-MORRISON: Wo ? @!TERRELL-BROWN: Ashley Morrison here in New York . Ashley , good to see you . Thank you . Coming up , we 'll do your weather forecast . In sports , crunch time in Dallas . The Mavericks and Thunder try to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be right back . @(ANNOUNCEMENTS) @!TERRELL-BROWN: -- forecast now . Latest satellite picture shows clouds lingering over the northwest . Skies are mainly clear across the Southwest . It 's clear over the Southern Plains , but much of the Ohio Valley and Southeast has cloudy skies this morning . Later today , strong thunderstorms will develop in the Ohio Valley and Southeast , bringing damaging winds and hail . The Southern Plains will get a break with sunny skies and temperatures in the eighties . Scattered showers will stick around the Northwest throughout the day while much of the West Coast has a beautiful day ahead with sunny skies and temperatures in the seventies and eighties . In sports this morning , the Dallas Mavericks are going to the NBA finals . Dallas rallied in the fourth quarter including a Dirk Nowitzki three pointer to put the Mavericks ahead of Oklahoma City with a minute-fourteen left . Dallas wins one hundred to ninety-six . They wrapped up the western conference finals four games to one . The Mavs will play the winner of the Chicago/Miami eastern conference playoff for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the season so far . In Philadelphia , bottom of the ninetieth inning Raul Ibanez hit a bases loaded sacrifice fly to drive in the winning run . The Phillies beat Cincinnati 5-4 in a game that took six hours and eleven minutes , ending after 1:00 AM . In San Francisco , twelfth inning , Florida Scott Cousins scored the winning run in a violent collision with Giants catcher Buster Posey . He was last season 's Rookie of The Year by the way . Posey was helped off the field . Oooosh . The Marlins won 7-6 . In the American League , Boston pounded Cleveland with seven runs in the first inning and never looked back . Visiting Red Sox went on to blast the Indians 14-2 . And in New York , the Yankees Andrew Jones hit two home runs in a seventy- three win over Toronto a bi -- it 's by the way even without a save opportunity . Yankees closer Mariano Rivera entered the game in the nineteenth . He became the first pitcher in major league history to appear in one @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ back , a recap of our top stories . And the latest crash test results on small cars . Which ones will keep your safest ? This is the CBS MORNING NEWS . @(ANNOUNCEMENTS) @!TERRELL-BROWN: Let 's get another look at this morning 's top stories . More powerful storms and tornadoes pounded the country 's midsection overnight . At least , eighty-one tornadoes were reported . There were warnings and watches in twelve states . No deaths were reported , but dozens were injured . Rescue crews are still looking for survivors in Joplin , Missouri . The death toll there stands at one hundred twenty-five . And following his visit to Britain , President Obama arrived in France this morning for the G-8 economic summit . The Arab uprisings , nuclear safety , and regulating the internet top the agenda . With gas prices nationwide around four dollars a gallon , lots of Americans are buying smaller , more economical cars . If you 're thinking about doing the same thing , there 's good news in the latest crash test results . Small cars are getting a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of small , fuel-efficient cars , no longer have to skimp on safety . Researchers with the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety say a record six gas sippers have earned the distinction of being a top safety pick . They are the Ford Focus , the four doors Honda Civic , the Hyundai Elantra , The Lexus CT-200H , the Nissan Juke and the Toyota Prius . Researchers ran the cars through a battery of tests , including front , side , roll-over and rear impact crashes . They say none of the thirteen cars earned a poor rating in any test . And that is a big change from the last few years when small cars struggled to earn top ratings . Researchers say the credit go to the car companies that are making what used to be extra features standard . For example , they all have standard side air bags and most have electronic stability control that can prevent many kinds of crashes . Still researchers say nothing beats the protective armor of a bigger , heavier car , proving that the laws of physics are always @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ gravity . Sandra Hughes , CBS News , Los Angeles . @(End-VT) @!TERRELL-BROWN: And this morning on THE EARLY SHOW how a new movie may paint the way to a Sarah Palin presidential bid . And inside the world of storm chasers . I 'm Terrell Brown . This is the CBS MORNING NEWS . @(ANNOUNCEMENTS) @!TERRELL-BROWN: One of the bright spots in the still-sluggish economy is the turn-around of General Motors . The automotive giant that needed a huge government bailout just to survive the recession . GM now restoring thousands of jobs in the Detroit area and elsewhere . Among those benefiting from the GM turnaround are the people of Lordstown , Ohio . Seth Doane reports . @(Begin-VT) @!SETH-DOANE: This is the sound of an entire town being jolted back to life by four thousand pounds of steel . @!BOBBI-MARSH-@1PH@2: My heart can burst that I 'm just that excited to be here . @!SETH-DOANE: Just to have a job ? @!BOBBI-MARSH: Just to have a job . @!SETH-DOANE: Bobbi Marsh had been unemployed for a year and a half . We first met her back in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Like twenty two hundreds others , when GM cut production of the now defunct cobalt . @!BOBBI-MARSH: I want to be able to provide on my own . @!SETH-DOANE: It 's tough . @!BOBBI-MARSH: Very tough . It 's 1702. @!SETH-DOANE: She tightened her budget . And used her mother 's piano lesson money to help save her house . All the time , anxious about the stress on her son . @!BOBBI-MARSH: I love you . @!BOY: Love you , too . @!SETH-DOANE: How about with you and your son ? What 's changed at home ? @!BOBBI-MARSH: Ummm . I feel like I 'm a better mom . @!SETH-DOANE: Why ? @!BOBBI-MARSH: Because I 'm not worried about where my paychecks coming . @!SETH-DOANE: For a good month , not a single car rolled off this line . Now this plant is up and running at capacity employing about forty-five hundred people and turning out a car a minute . @!BOB-PARCELL-@1Plan: They are going from telling people they 're laid off to telling people hey , we 're hiring , come on back in . I mean , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!SETH-DOANE: Plant Manager Bob Parcell is proud of the new car coming off the line now . The fuel efficient Chevy Cruze . Mayor Michael Chaffee says seventy-five percent of his town 's revenue comes from the plant . @!MAJOR-MICHAEL-CHAF: It was hard to turn a television on and see U.S. Senators talking about letting the industry go away . @!JOHN-TARCHECK-@1PH: I think about it a lot . @!SETH-DOANE: When we first met John Tarcheck , he had been furloughed and was filling time with house chores . He was laid off for four months , just as his son was heading to college . @!JOHN-TARCHECK: We were really scraping together in order just to make ends meet , because we did n't know what the future was going to be . @!SETH-DOANE: But now , he 's working again . Not far from Bobbi Marsh . @!BOBBI-MARSH: It feels like that I 've conquered something by overcoming being being on -- on -- being laid off and being able to survive , because it makes you feel like I 'm a winner . @!SETH-DOANE: That 's the way the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Lordstown , Ohio . @(End-VT) @!TERRELL-BROWN: Coming up a little later on THE EARLY SHOW , the latest on the struggle for recovery in tornado-stricken Joplin , Missouri . Including how the disaster is affecting the children . Then , will Sarah Palin run for President ? A new movie may offer some clues . And fighting arthritis with exercise . What kind ? And how much ? All that and more coming up a little bit later on on THE EARLY SHOW and that will do it for this Thursday edition of the CBS MORNING NEWS . As always , appreciate you watching . I 'm Terrell Brown . Take care everybody Have a great day .

@@4102741 @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS-@# @(Off-camera) It was the little book that could , its title just two simple words , " The Help . " It went on to sell more than three million copies and now is one of the summer 's most anticipated movies . No car chases , no explosions , no super heroes , except for the incredible African-American women who raised other people 's children almost as their very own . For a lot of people , it 's not just a novel or a movie , but something they lived . Here 's Deborah Roberts . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) In those early , tender and trying moments , the bond forged between child and caregiver can last a lifetime , something Elizabeth Hays knows well . @!ELIZABETH-HAYS-@1R# I ca n't separate her from the course of my life . She is ingrained with who I am. @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) Her story , like many others never told , found a voice in a little book that became a huge success ... @!CLIP-FROM- " THE-HEL# @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) ... and spawned a new movie out next month . @!VIOLA-DAVIS-@1ACTR# You 're a godless woman . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) " The Help @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ relationship between black maids and their white employers whose children they raise . @!EMMA-STONE-@1ACTRE# We love them , and they love us , but they ca n't even use the toilets in our houses . @!BRYCE-DALLAS-HOWAR# You are fired . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) The setting , the early ' 60s in Jackson , Mississippi , a hot bed for the civil rights era . It 's where Kathryn Stockett , author of " The Help , " grew up . @!KATHRYN-STOCKETT-@# The real reason why I started writing " The Help " was because of Demetrie , the housekeeper in my grandmother 's home . I have to think that in some ways she saved my life because she used to stand me in front of a mirror . She would just say , " Look at yourself . You 're beautiful . You 're worth something . " @!VIOLA-DAVIS-@1ACTR# You is smart . You is kind . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# ... is smart . You is kind . @!KATHRYN-STOCKETT-@# What an incredible message to give a child . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) Long before Kathryn 's work of fiction reached the silver screen , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!KATHRYN-STOCKETT-@# I was rejected for three years . I have 60 rejection letters . These , every time I 'd get a rejection letter , it 'll get to a little part where you just felt sorry for yourself . But then , I 'd go back to the story and - try to make it better . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) And all that hard work paid off . The little book that could became a runaway hit , spending more than a hundred weeks on " The New York Times " bestseller list , partly propelled by word of mouth and book clubs everywhere . Now , number one in paperback , it 's still going strong . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) Why do you think this book resonated so with people ? @!KATHRYN-STOCKETT-@# I get letters from readers from all over the world that say , " You opened my eyes to something that I did n't even know existed , " or , " Oh , my God . You know , you , you wrote my story . " I feel , I 've even had people say , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) But it was the author whom actress Viola Davis had doubts about when reading " The Help . " @!VIOLA-DAVIS-@1ACTR# I had an attitude when I read the book . That 's where I was . I had a huge attitude . I was thinking , how is this white woman - going to be able to paint the picture of these maids ? How was she 's - she gon na tap into their spirit ? @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) And I 've heard people say that ... @!VIOLA-DAVIS-@1ACTR# Uh-huh . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) ... especially black folks who are skeptical. @!VIOLA-DAVIS-@1ACTR# And I was beautifully surprised . @!EMMA-STONE-@1ACTRE# I wan na interview you . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) Viola plays Aibileen , a maid who finds courage in the camaraderie of an unlikely alliance . @!VIOLA-DAVIS-@1ACTR# Most people live their lives not knowing that there 's something in all of us that 's extraordinary , that 's heroic , that 's able to create a different present and future for ourselves and to maybe even change the world a little bit , you know ? @!EMMA-STONE-@1ACTRE# You said to write about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ else . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) 22-year-old Emma Stone stars as Skeeter , a recent college grad and aspiring writer who sets her sights on something hiding in plain sight , the every day indignities suffered by black maids in white homes . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) How much did you know about this era in the South ? @!EMMA-STONE-@1ACTRE# Extraordinarily limited amount . And I am grateful for this experience because I do n't know how much my generation knows . And to be able to bring that back to my generation is hugely important to me . I 'd like to write something from the point of view of the help . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) In a risky move in the Jim Crow South , Skeeter persuades the black maids to unite , secretly sharing their stories in hopes of one day getting them published ... @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# I 'm gon na help with your stories . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# We all are . @!OCTAVIA-SPENCER-@1# All right . I 'm gon na do it . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) ... including the feisty , no-nonsense maid Minny played by Octavia Spencer . @!OCTAVIA-SPENCER-@1# I got to come up @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ she 's a real-life friend of Kathryn Stockett , Octavia says she had to fight for the role . @!OCTAVIA-SPENCER-@1# I made voodoo dolls of Jennifer Hudson and Queen Latifah . And anybody that remotely resembled Minny , I just made little dolls . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) The characters touched a nerve in Mississippi and beyond ... @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) So this is the old neighborhood . @!ELIZABETH-HAYS-@1R# This is it . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) ... particularly with Elizabeth Hays , born and raised in Jackson . For her , " The Help " was more than just another bestseller. @!ELIZABETH-HAYS-@1R# I got a giggle out of reading the jacket pocket . The streets that are named in the book are the streets surrounding my parents home . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) The book mirrored her own life in more ways than she ever imagined ... @!ELIZABETH-HAYS-@1R# It was funny , it was entertaining , and it ripped my heart out . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) ... because of a wound still raw more than 30 years later . Elizabeth will never forget Arlene @(PH) , a long-ago maid who raised her from the day she was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Arlene could not be replaced . And I was very , very angry . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) Her memories came vividly back to life in " The Help " when Aibileen , too , is fired and ripped away from little Mae Mobley. @!VIOLA-DAVIS-@1ACTR# You is important . @!ACTRESS-@1FEMALE@2# You is important . @!VIOLA-DAVIS-@1ACTR# Oh , that 's so good . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) You identified with that little girl ? @!ELIZABETH-HAYS-@1R# I did . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) Yet what Elizabeth did n't know is that the new help her parents brought in was about to change her life forever . @!ALMA-COUSIN-@1FORM# The first day Liz came home , and she said , " What are you doing here ? " I said , " I came to work . " And I was ironing . And she just grabbed the clothes off the ironing board , and I started chasing her . And ... @!ELIZABETH-HAYS-@1R# With a broom . @!ALMA-COUSIN-@1FORM# With a broom . And , and she said , " Yeah , I do n't like you . I do n't want you to be here . " I said , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with you , either . " @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) At just 6 years old , little Elizabeth wanted Alma Cousin to know she was used to getting her way . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) What were you feelings about this woman coming into your home ? @!ELIZABETH-HAYS-@1R# She needed to do what I told her to do , because , you know , we 're the white kids and ... @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) A sense of entitlement . @!ELIZABETH-HAYS-@1R# ... that 's what you , yes . It 's , it 's so embarrassing now , but it is true . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) Up next , as Elizabeth 's love for Alma grows stronger , reality steps in . Race relations reach a boiling point . And " The Help " sparks an emotional reunion you do n't wan na miss . @!DOROTHY-@1FORMER-H# Oh , my God . @!COMMERCIAL-BREAK-# @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) Alma Cousin cleaned the homes of white families for 50 years in Jackson , Mississippi . Her life story is one of strength and suffering , living through the racial discord of the civil rights era . Her world mirrors that of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!BRYCE-DALLAS-HOWAR# I 've drafted the home health sanitation initiative . @!EMMA-STONE-@1ACTRE# The what ? @!BRYCE-DALLAS-HOWAR# A bill that requires every white home to have a separate bathroom for the help . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) Before you came to work for this family , you had worked for other families . @!ALMA-COUSIN-@1FORM# I worked for this lady , and she said , " Alma , where do you go to bathroom at ? " And I said , " Oh , in there . " And she said , " Oh , I do n't want you to use that one no more . " I said , " Huh ? " She said , " Well , you just gon na have to go outside . " And so I told her , I said , " You give me my money , and I 'll be on my way . " And I left . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) You left ? @!ALMA-COUSIN-@1FORM# I left . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) Wow . @!ALMA-COUSIN-@1FORM# Mm-hmm . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) That was a pretty strong attitude for that time . @!ALMA-COUSIN-@1FORM# My daddy was a real strong @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ off of nobody . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) So when Alma first set foot in Elizabeth Hays home , she demanded a level of respect that caught the willful , little girl off guard . @!ALMA-COUSIN-@1FORM# When you work as a maid , a lot of folks call you my maid . And I really was n't they maid , and so I chose the word housekeeper . @!ELIZABETH-HAYS-@1R# We were to never call Alma our maid . She was our housekeeper only . @!OCTAVIA-SPENCER-@1# Shake that . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) But this housekeeper ... @!OCTAVIA-SPENCER-@1# @(Off-camera) All right . All right . Chicken already dead , missy . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) ... just like Minny in the movie ... @!OCTAVIA-SPENCER-@1# Yep . He dead . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) ... worked magic in the kitchen . @!ELIZABETH-HAYS-@1R# I remember that if Alma cooked it , it was worth eating . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) Oh , Ms. Alma , this smells so good . @!ALMA-COUSIN-@1FORM# When people sit down to the table with fried chicken , it make them feel real good inside and outside . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) Let 's check it out . @!**29;977;TOOLONG @(Voiceover) The @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Help , " everyone talks about Minny 's caramel cake . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) This looks beautiful . @!ALMA-COUSIN-@1FORM# Thank you . @!ELIZABETH-HAYS-@1R# She 's famous for her caramel cake . @!ALMA-COUSIN-@1FORM# Caramel cake . @!ELIZABETH-HAYS-@1R# Even now as an adult , I 'll hit her up for a caramel cake . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) Now , what 's the secret ? @!ALMA-COUSIN-@1FORM# Ca n't tell you . @!ELIZABETH-HAYS-@1R# @(Off-camera) She wo n't tell . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) Those bonds forged early on in the kitchen have blossomed into a deep and enduring friendship . @!ELIZABETH-HAYS-@1R# I love you . @!ALMA-COUSIN-@1FORM# Love you , too . @!ELIZABETH-HAYS-@1R# The more time we spent together , the more fun we had together . You know , there 's a lot to be said in a child 's world for steadiness and consistency . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) Yet in Jackson , Mississippi , Elizabeth was growing up amidst a powder keg of racial discontent . @!CIVIL-RIGHTS-ACTIV# We are not @(inaudible) . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) Civil Rights leader Medgar Evers had been murdered just four miles from Elizabeth 's home , and public schools were resisting forced integration . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) Other parents were n't so open-minded . In fact , one gave Elizabeth a swift and harsh lesson in hate . @!ELIZABETH-HAYS-@1R# There was a kid that had been instructed by his father to spray the black kids with mace . And as a child , I was in the bathroom washing to get the burn out of their eyes . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) And that was your introduction to racial strife . @!ELIZABETH-HAYS-@1R# And an adult could have given that charge to a child . It was disgusting . Hey , Mac @(PH) , will you go around ... @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) That painful episode was 30 years ago . Today , Elizabeth is raising her own family in North Carolina , guided by the special love she and now her children feel for Alma . But 1200 miles away in Mesa , Arizona , someone else we met has n't been as lucky . For decades , Ivy Johnston has longed to reunite with the woman she ca n't forget . @!IVY-JOHNSTON-@1REA# I 'm thinking about , what does she think about me , how much does she @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) She 'll soon find out . Today , Ivy 's an emotional wreck , preparing to leave her home for New York City , where , after 20 years , she 'll finally reconnect with Dorothy , the woman she calls her guardian angel . @!IVY-JOHNSTON-@1REA# Dorothy was my mother 's maid who would come in once a week on Fridays . And she would clean the house . She worked not only for my mother , but for my grandmother and my great-grandmother . Dorothy 's been in my life since I was a baby . And from what I understand , she changed my first diapers. @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) She says Dorothy was her anchor , helping her navigate tough times with her parents . Her earliest memories are following Dorothy around the house , literally holding tight to her apron strings . @!IVY-JOHNSTON-@1REA# We 'd sit at lunch together and just chat about life . And she just taught me a lot of things that a mother would teach a little girl , right from wrong . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) So it 's no surprise that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ she sat down and wrote Dorothy a letter . @!DOROTHY-@1FORMER-H# " Dear Dorothy . I am sorry that it took me so long to write you . " @!IVY-JOHNSTON-@1REA# I just needed to tell you how much I love you and how big a role you played in my life . @!DOROTHY-@1FORMER-H# " I remember being a little girl and ... " @!IVY-JOHNSTON-@1REA# Following you around the house and listening to you talk . And you were always so cheerful and kind . @!DOROTHY-@1FORMER-H# " It is some things I want to say to you for a long time . " @!IVY-JOHNSTON-@1REA# You 'll always be in my heart and prayers as the woman I looked up to , the woman who loved me , the woman who protected me , and the woman who never failed to make me smile . Thank you for all the hugs you gave me. @!DOROTHY-@1FORMER-H# It goes to your heart when somebody say that . And you know you done the best you could by them . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) As for Dorothy , her early life was filled with back-breaking work , first @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of South Carolina , and later , as a teenager cleaning houses in New York . She 's now retired and living in Brooklyn . It was when Ivy posted a comment on " The Help 's " Facebook page sharing what Dorothy had meant to her that " 20/20 " offered to help reunite the two in New York . @!IVY-JOHNSTON-@1REA# I think she 'll say , " Oh , my Lord . " And she 'll cover her mouth , and her big , beautiful brown eyes will open up wide . Oh , I do n't wan na forget the present I bought Dorothy . Which gate are we going to ? @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) Ivy , accompanied by her mother , is keeping a video diary of her trip . @!IVY-JOHNSTON-@1REA# What I wan na show you is that the woman next to me on this plane happens to be reading " The Help . " And if it was n't for that book , I would n't be on this flight . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) Finally , the morning of the reunion , Ivy 's in excruciating @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ But she 's undeterred , and within hours , in a wheelchair assisted by her mom and headed for Central Park to meet Dorothy . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) So nice to see you . @!IVY-JOHNSTON-@1REA# Deborah , nice to meet you . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) Hi . I understand you 're not feeling well . Are you okay ? @!IVY-JOHNSTON-@1REA# I am . I 'm in a lot of pain right now , but I would n't miss this for the world . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) How much does she mean to you ? I mean - I , I see you tearing up already . @!IVY-JOHNSTON-@1REA# She means everything to me . She 's , Dorothy is like the mother , my second mother . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) What do you remember most about her ? @!IVY-JOHNSTON-@1REA# I remember her waking me up in the morning by pulling on my toes one by one . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) Now , you saw her when you were growing up once a week , yet , she had such an impact on you . How is that possible ? @!IVY-JOHNSTON-@1REA# She was always there with a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in her than anybody I 've ever known . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) Earlier that day , Dorothy 's daughter coaxed her from the house , not explaining why she was taking her to New York City Central Park . Now , not 100 feet away , the child she helped raise waits to see her . Do you think she 'll recognize you ? @!IVY-JOHNSTON-@1REA# I think the wheelchair might throw her off . She probably would recognize me because I have the same stupid haircut I had when I was 6 years old . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) So she has no idea she 's going to see you . @!IVY-JOHNSTON-@1REA# She has no idea she 's gon na see me. @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) I 'm gon na go and find Dorothy . @!IVY-JOHNSTON-@1REA# Okay . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) Hello . I 'm Deborah Roberts ... @!DOROTHY-@1FORMER-H# Oh , hi . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) ... from ABC News . @!DOROTHY-@1FORMER-H# Oh , my God . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) Now , you 've been retired for a long time , I guess , right ? @!DOROTHY-@1FORMER-H# Yes . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) Dorothy easily shares stories about her family @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , her memory suddenly turned to Ivy and her brother . You remember ? @!DOROTHY-@1FORMER-H# Yeah . They was my kids . I remember all the kids . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) Well , let 's see how well you remember , okay ? We have a surprise for you , okay ? So let 's see . Somebody who 's been wanting to see you for a long time . @!DOROTHY-@1FORMER-H# Oh , my God . Hi , Ivy . This is my baby . How you doing , honey ? @!IVY-JOHNSTON-@1REA# I 'm great . How are you ? @!DOROTHY-@1FORMER-H# All right . @!IVY-JOHNSTON-@1REA# I love you . @!DOROTHY-@1FORMER-H# I love you too . @!IVY-JOHNSTON-@1REA# Miss you so much . @!DOROTHY-@1FORMER-H# And I was just talking about you . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) Oh , my goodness , you two . @!DOROTHY-@1FORMER-H# See ? That 's , I ... @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) All these years later . @!DOROTHY-@1FORMER-H# I was just talking about you . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) Do you remember when you used to wake her up in the morning ? @!DOROTHY-@1FORMER-H# Yes . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) She said you had a certain way @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ me ? How did you wake me up ? @!DOROTHY-@1FORMER-H# I used to take her toes and wiggle them . And she 's like , " Oh , leave my toes alone . " And then , she 'd take her feet and hide it on the cover . I said , " No , hiding today because you getting up and you go to , going to school . " @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) What kind of a child was she ? @!IVY-JOHNSTON-@1REA# Oh , God . No. @!DOROTHY-@1FORMER-H# She was a pretty good kid , but sometimes she 'd get mischief . And then I 'd tell her , I said , " No . That 's not the way I want you to be . " @!IVY-JOHNSTON-@1REA# Dorothy taught me integrity and right from wrong and the right thing to do and to love people . @!DOROTHY-@1FORMER-H# Oh , thank you . @!IVY-JOHNSTON-@1REA# You 're welcome . @!DOROTHY-@1FORMER-H# Ooh . @!IVY-JOHNSTON-@1REA# Now , that 's an angel . And I bought that for you because you 're my angel . @!DOROTHY-@1FORMER-H# Yeah ? You 're my angel too , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of an impact you made on my life ... @!DOROTHY-@1FORMER-H# Yeah . @!IVY-JOHNSTON-@1REA# ... and how much I love you . @!ALMA-COUSIN-@1FORM# I love you too . @!IVY-JOHNSTON-@1REA# There 's nobody in my life like you . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) Up next , no boundaries between mom and caregiver ? @!MEREDITH-SOLO-@1PA# I can never fire my nanny because she knows too much . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) An unusual modern day twist on the help . @!COMMERCIAL-BREAK-# @!EMMA-STONE-@1ACTRE# Did you know as a girl growing up that one day you 'd be a maid ? @!VIOLA-DAVIS-@1ACTR# Yes , ma'am , I did . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) There 's no question that the maids portrayed in the upcoming film " The Help " were second-class citizens . But today in most homes , their place and face have changed . @!BECKY-BRADFIELD-@1# Good morning . @!MEREDITH-SOLO-@1PA# Yay . Becky 's here . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) Welcome to the Solo home in Toledo , Ohio . Nanny Becky Bradfield 's the glue that holds this family together . @!MEREDITH-SOLO-@1PA# I pretty much go to Becky for all life advice . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) Today , nationwide , nearly half @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it , turn it , turn it . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) In fact , blacks make up only about 10% of domestic help nationwide , a radical shift from the 1960s America Kathryn Stockett wrote about . @!BECKY-BRADFIELD-@1# Those women worked really hard . So I do n't like to even be compared to them , because I do n't feel like I work nearly as hard as they did . Hi , baby . Oh , good girl . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) Becky cares for the Solos three kids , Lila @(PH) , Logan and Lars @(PH) . @!LARS-@1MEREDITH'S-# If Becky were n't here , it would pretty much just be chaos all the time . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) For nearly 10 hours a day , Becky is a master multitasker , taking on the house , the kids , even their parents . @!MEREDITH'S-HUSBAND# Becky cooks dinner for us , does my laundry . @!MEREDITH-SOLO-@1PA# And all he has to do is put it in my drawers . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) If that 's not enough , this super nanny , with four kids of her own , is also a trained @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) For the Solos , Becky 's a necessity they ca n't live without . @!BECKY-BRADFIELD-@1# They 're very good , hard-working , every day people . They struggle sometimes to pay me , and I know that , but they work hard for everything they 've had . @!MEREDITH-SOLO-@1PA# Got to go make us money . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) It takes two paychecks to make ends meet . @!BECKY-BRADFIELD-@1# Who does mommy make money for ? @!LOGAN-@1MEREDITH'S# Me. @!BECKY-BRADFIELD-@1# And who else ? @!LOGAN-@1MEREDITH'S# You . @!BECKY-BRADFIELD-@1# That 's right . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) Meredith is a human resources manager ... @!MEREDITH-SOLO-@1PA# See you . @!BECKY-BRADFIELD-@1# See you . @!LOGAN-@1MEREDITH'S# See you . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) ... who embraces life with a daily dose of humor , even writing an irreverent parenting blog called " Life 's Crazy Joke . " @!MEREDITH-SOLO-@1PA# I can never fire the nanny . She knows too much . @!BECKY-BRADFIELD-@1# I know where Meredith 's sex toys are . @!MEREDITH-SOLO-@1PA# We 're open and honest . And there 's nothing to hide . @!BECKY-BRADFIELD-@1# And I know that she hides them when , like , her @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do not get jealous of the bond that Becky has with my children . @!LOGAN-@1MEREDITH'S# I love you , Becks. @!BECKY-BRADFIELD-@1# I love you too . @!MEREDITH-SOLO-@1PA# As a matter of fact , I was looking for that in a nanny . @!BECKY-BRADFIELD-@1# How about a nice kiss ? Another one . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) Precious moments . Becky hopes these are the building blocks of a lifelong bond that have , for so many , withstood the test of time . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS-@# @(Off-camera) After seeing that , I bet a lot of letters are going to be written and calls made to the women from our childhoods , thanking them for a job well done . The movie " The Help " opens on August 10th , and it is a production of DreamWorks Pictures and is being released by Disney , the parent company of ABC . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) If you wan na see more about the movie " The Help , " including an interview with director Tate Taylor and author Kathryn Stockett , go to abcnews.com/2020 . And watch " Nightline " after your local news , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ girl . What is going on with that ? I 'm Chris Cuomo. @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS-@# @(Off-camera) And I 'm Elizabeth Vargas . For all of us at " 20/20 " and ABC News , have a great weekend , and good night .

@@4102841 @!KOTB , co-host @(Montreal) : We made it to day two in Montreal . @!KATHIE-LEE-GIFFORD: We did . Oh my gosh , what a gorgeous city this is . And you all are ... @!KOTB: Oh ! @!Mr-CHUCK-HUGHES: Ladies , ladies , ladies , excuse me. @!GIFFORD: Oh , mon Dieu. @!KOTB: Oh , oh I 'm sorry . @!GIFFORD: Excusez-moi. @!KOTB: Who is he ? @!Mr-HUGHES: You ca n't come here and not have a cocktail at least . @!GIFFORD: Are you the famous Chuck Hughes of ... @(unintelligible) ... restaurant ? @!KOTB: This is -- Chuck . Chuck . Chuck . I 'm going to give you a kiss because -- but Chuck 's going to be with us later . @!Mr-HUGHES: Yeah . @!KOTB: And the one he really wants to kiss is this one . And we will explain later . @!Mr-HUGHES: We 'll talk about it later . @!KOTB: Yes , we will . @!Mr-HUGHES: Enjoy the drinks . @!GIFFORD: Thank you . @!KOTB: Thank you , Chuck . @!Mr-HUGHES: Thank you . @!GIFFORD: Oh , that 's good , Chuck . @!KOTB: Mm . Mm . Mm. @!GIFFORD: Ooh ! How much wood @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you know Chuck ... Offscreen Voice 1 : That 's good . @!GIFFORD: Ahhhh . @!KOTB: Chuck is a famous chef and a really great guy , and we 're going to talk to him a little bit later . All right , if you 're wondering where we are , we are in Montreal . @!GIFFORD: We are in Montreal . We 're in Old Montreal , at the Place Jacques-Cartier. @!KOTB: It 's a beautiful city . And if you look at it on the map -- because sometimes it 's hard , Canada is so massive -- we were -- we are on the far ... @!GIFFORD: How massive is it ? @!KOTB: ... the far eastern side . @!GIFFORD: Yes . @!KOTB: On the bottom , if you know what I mean . @!GIFFORD: I wish we could eat and drink our way all the way through Canada ... @!KOTB: Me , too . @!GIFFORD: ... from east to the west , Hoda woman . @!KOTB: I wish we could , too . @!GIFFORD: We have had a great time , though , everybody . We @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ No , we don't. @!GIFFORD: It is just glorious . @!KOTB: It 's been terrific . It really has . @!GIFFORD: Have we -- have we eaten and had everything to drink there is to do ? @!KOTB: Well , here 's the thing . Everywhere we go , people keep saying one thing to us , ' You have to try ' ... @!KOTB and @!GIFFORD: Poutine. @!KOTB: Wait , what is it , poutine ? @!GIFFORD: Poutine. @!KOTB: Poutine. @!GIFFORD: Some say poutine , some say poutine. @!KOTB: Poutine . Now , poutine is potatoes and some other goodies all mixed up . @!GIFFORD: Cheese curd , gravy and stuff , right ? @!KOTB: Cheese curd . Gravy . @!GIFFORD: Well , I guess Chuck 's going to make it today with lobster . @!KOTB: So we 're going to -- we get to try that , so we 're ... @!GIFFORD: Yeah . And he kicked Bobby Flay 's butt once on " Iron Chef . " @!KOTB: Yeah . We also -- we 've got a terrific show . A lot of things are going on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ us on the plaza . @!GIFFORD: They 're going to be singing . You know , we invited them kind of late , and so only two of them can come . @!KOTB: Well , they handle it . That 's good . @!GIFFORD: And -- but they 're going to sing anyway , and they 're fantastic . @!KOTB: We 're very excited about them . @!GIFFORD: And you know what ? It 's also ... @!KOTB: What ? @!GIFFORD: ... Friday funny day , Hoda. @!KOTB: We 're going to get to that . @!GIFFORD: But you know what 's coming in to town tonight ? @!KOTB: What ? @!GIFFORD: What 's coming into town tonight ? @!KOTB: What ? @!GIFFORD: Is the big laughfest ! Did you see that ugly thing that was -- oh ... @!KOTB: Just for Laughs . @!GIFFORD: ... that thing that was -- Just for Laughs , yeah . Yeah . How many of you are in town for that ? @!KOTB: They 're just cheering . I think they 're just cheering . All right , so ... @!GIFFORD: How many @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Woo ! @!KOTB: OK , this is -- this is an issue for the women out there , and we were wondering about this . Kate Middleton ... @!GIFFORD: Yeah . @!KOTB: ... has been wearing sheer pantyhose in almost every single picture ... @!GIFFORD: Who can tell ? @!KOTB: ... in the summertime . Now , except for when she wears open-toed shoes , someone said . Now , we 're wondering if that 's going to bring pantyhose back in the summer , or anytime . @!GIFFORD: Bobbie Thomas is shaking her head no. @!KOTB: Bobbie , what do you say ? @!Ms-BOBBIE-THOMAS: No. @!GIFFORD: No . Bobbie says no. @!KOTB: Bobbie Thomas says no . Why ? @!GIFFORD: Apparently , though , Bobbie -- come on over -- they are -- they are falling off the shelves because of her . @!KOTB: Yes . @!GIFFORD: She 's such a trendsetter. @!KOTB: Yeah . @!Ms-THOMAS: Yeah . I think it 's great under certain things to help form your body . @!KOTB: Yeah , like Spanx. @!GIFFORD: Well , if you got Spanx you do n't need the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's really hot , there are so many other things you can use like bronzers or other stuff . So I do n't know , that 's where I side . @!GIFFORD: Well , I guess some ladies have the vein situation , and even some men like this gentleman . @!KOTB: What do you guys say ? Ooh . So , guys , raise your hand -- raise your hand if you guys think pantyhose are OK in the summertime . I just want to see . Raise your hand . @!GIFFORD: We will get to you , Jeff Ross . @!KOTB: Raise your hand if you say no , no . OK. @!GIFFORD: Yeah . @!KOTB: It 's an overwhelming no . The other thing that they 're setting trends on -- do you guys remember when Will and Kate were in Calgary , which is that famous ... @!KOTB and @!GIFFORD: ( In unison ) Stampede . @!GIFFORD: Sounds like , yeah . @!KOTB: OK , anyway , so they were there for that and they wore these white cowboy hats , which were such the rage @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ deals . But these are -- these are hats with a -- they 're kind of cute . What do you think ? @!GIFFORD: They especially look really good when you 're wearing pantyhose. @!KOTB: Yeah , those are cute . I like those . @!GIFFORD: They 're stupid-looking. @!KOTB: They are ? @!GIFFORD: That 's what you -- yeah . @!KOTB: I kind of like . I kind of like . Is it time ? @!GIFFORD: It is time . I tell you . @!KOTB: All right . @!GIFFORD: I thought -- I thought we 'd get the laughs rolling . Is that what you 're talking about ? @!KOTB: I think we should get the laughs rolling . @!GIFFORD: Let 's bring out a guy that 's very , very funny , or at least he says he is . Mr. Jeff Ross , everybody . @!KOTB: All right . @!Mr-JEFF-ROSS: Hi , ladies . @!GIFFORD: Jeff ! @!Mr-ROSS: How you doing ? Can I ... @!KOTB: Yeah . Hi , Jeff . @!Mr-ROSS: Hi , sweetie . @!KOTB: OK ... @!GIFFORD: So you 're in town for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!GIFFORD: OK , and it -- and it premiered last night . You did two shows . How were you ? @!Mr-ROSS: So funny . This is -- it 's like 30 years of laughs , and I try to come every year . @!KOTB: Yeah . @!Mr-ROSS: It 's a chance to try new stuff , and I make fun of the audience . It 's really fun . @!KOTB: OK , you 're doing a Charlie Sheen thing coming up , we heard . @!GIFFORD: He 's going to be at the roast for Charlie Sheen . @!Mr-ROSS: At Comedy Central . @!KOTB: But -- now , you ... @!GIFFORD: He talked him into doing it , Hoda. @!KOTB: Really ? @!GIFFORD: Because you were on tour with him , right ? @!Mr-ROSS: Who 's better to roast than a Charlie Sheen ? @!KOTB: OK , now usually , you guys ... @!Mr-ROSS: It 's like a three-part miniseries. @!KOTB: Now , usually on Fridays Kath does her funny joke , it 's her FRIDAY FUNNY . But we decided it was time to let someone else take @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ thing . Let 's hear it . @!GIFFORD: So let 's -- here you go , FRIDAY FUNNY from you . @!Mr-ROSS: Well , it 's a comedy festival . @!GIFFORD: Yes . @!Mr-ROSS: There 's a lot of -- there was so many comedians on my plane we had to go through an insecurity checkpoint . @!GIFFORD: Yeah , ba-dump . OK. @!KOTB: Please , another one . @!Mr-ROSS: One more ? One more quick one ? @!GIFFORD: More . @!Mr-ROSS: OK , you know ... @!GIFFORD: A funny one this time . @!Mr-ROSS: How many -- wow , you 're tough . @!KOTB: Yeah . @!Mr-ROSS: I 'm sorry , I did n't know it was matching white dress day , OK ? @!KOTB: Yeah , it was . @!Mr-ROSS: OK , you Canadians , you love beer , right ? @!KOTB: Yeah , they do . @!Mr-ROSS: Canadian guy is walking up the street here in Old Montreal , he 's carrying a case of beer . His buddy says , ' Hey , why you carrying that case of beer ? And the guy says , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ guy says , ' Good trade . ' @!GIFFORD: Oh ! Crowd : ( In unison ) Oh ! @!GIFFORD: That was good . You saved it for us. @!KOTB: Thank you , honey . @!Mr-ROSS: Thank you . @!KOTB: We really appreciate it . Thank you . Thank you , Jeff . @!GIFFORD: Hey , Jeff , have fun . @!Mr-ROSS: Have fun in Montreal . Bonjour , au revoir , Bon Jovi , all ... @!KOTB: Bon Jovi. @!GIFFORD: Thanks , Jeff . @!Mr-ROSS: Thanks , Kathie Lee . Have fun , everybody . @!GIFFORD: Bye-bye . @!KOTB: Bye , babe . OK. @!GIFFORD: Hoda , hold on , I 'm still wearing the stupid hat . @!KOTB: I know . All right . All right , so every time Matt and Ann and Al and everybody goes on some kind of location shoot ... @!GIFFORD: Yes . @!KOTB: ... they bring each other gifts . But we ... @!GIFFORD: They never get us anything . @!KOTB: ... never get anything . @!GIFFORD: But we 're not like that . We 're so much nicer . @!KOTB: We @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ stuff back to them . What have we got , Hoda ? @!KOTB: We are . Let 's see , where is everything ? @!GIFFORD: Let 's see . @!KOTB: We 've got the -- where 's the -- here . @!GIFFORD: Oh , I 'm sitting on the daggone ... @!KOTB: Oh , you got it . This is for Matt. @!GIFFORD: This is for Matt. @!KOTB: Oh , no. @!GIFFORD: Oh , yeah . @!KOTB: Be careful . @!GIFFORD: This is for Matt . ( Puts on an apron ) Oh , yeah . @!KOTB: All right . I like it . I like it . @!GIFFORD: There 's some much dirtier ones in some of the shops I 've seen . @!KOTB: All right , now which is Ann ? @!GIFFORD: Well , I think . .. @!KOTB: Ann has that -- that 's hers . @!GIFFORD: This is for Ann because she 's got a brand-new office to go with . So this is going to look so charming in her brand-new office . @!KOTB: What do you guys think ? @!GIFFORD: Yeah . @!KOTB: All @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ dresses to the nines ? @!GIFFORD: Yes . @!KOTB: We got him a Canadian tie . And for Natalie , who does n't look bad in anything , this is what we got for Natalie , you guys . @!GIFFORD: Her little moose slippers. @!KOTB: These are for Nat . Nat , we hope you like . @!GIFFORD: Yeah . And then last but not least we have Savannah , who 's new to our show , too , and we 're going to give her Canadian beaver droppings. @!KOTB: Just be ... @!GIFFORD: Just to keep her energy up . She 's exhausted with all the new job and everything . @!KOTB: She is exhausted . @!GIFFORD: Yes . @!KOTB: All right , so it is Tryday , so we 've got what we have heard is one of the most incredible desserts ever . It 's some -- it 's some beaver tails . @!GIFFORD: Yes . @!KOTB: Is it so good ? Beaver tails . @!GIFFORD: How -- beaver tails . @!KOTB: OK , it is -- let 's get in here . @!GIFFORD: Oh my gosh @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ -- I just want to get in it . @!GIFFORD: Who -- you guys love these ? @!KOTB: Get in there . @!GIFFORD: OK . All right . Yeah , I got to pull it off . Offscreen Voice 3 : One bite ! @!KOTB: One bite ? Really ? @!GIFFORD: Yeah , I 'll bring it over . Oh , ah . OK. @!KOTB: Oh my God . Oh my God . Voice 3 : Yeah . @!GIFFORD: Oh , it 's fantastic . Mm. @!KOTB: You want some ? @!GIFFORD: Mm. @!KOTB: Mm. @!GIFFORD: Everything has maple sugar in it . I needed toothpaste at the hotel , they sent me maple syrup toothpaste. @!KOTB: Mm. @!GIFFORD: Unbelievable . @!KOTB: Absolutely delicious . All right , guys , we got a terrific show . @!GIFFORD: We do . We do , we do . What do we have ? @!KOTB: Mm. @!GIFFORD: We 're here . That 's all you need , baby . @!KOTB: Oh , wait . Wait , wait , wait . Do n't go . @!GIFFORD: Oh ! @!KOTB: There 's more food here @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!KOTB: This is that dessert . Offscreen Voice 4 : From Jardine Nelson . @!KOTB: From Jardine Nelson . It is a -- hold on . @!GIFFORD: Gosh , you guys , how much stuff -- I 'm going to Canyon Ranch spa after this trip . @!KOTB: Oh my God . @!GIFFORD: That 's going to make your teeth ache , right ? @!KOTB: No , no , no . What is that ? @!GIFFORD: Maple syrup. @!KOTB: What is that ? @!GIFFORD: That ... @!KOTB: That is so delicious . It 's like a bread pudding thing with maple syrup. @!GIFFORD: And you sort of have to wash it down with ice cream , right ? @!KOTB: No , no , so good . I 'm so happy . @!GIFFORD: Oh , she 's so happy , you have no idea . @!KOTB: I 'm so happy . Oh my God . @!GIFFORD: All right . @!KOTB: That may be the best dessert , that one . You 're right , Tammy . All right , you guys ... @!GIFFORD: All right . @!KOTB: ... we have a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ little cooking with Chuck . @!GIFFORD: Yep , yep , yep . @!KOTB: Your boyfriend . @!GIFFORD: We 're going to do a little singing with the Barenaked Ladies . @!KOTB: You guys stick around and come back , OK ? That 's so good . That is so good . '

@@4102941 @!DEUTSCH , co -host : But I 'm just going to say something that is not official . @!HODA-KOTB-co-host: What ? @!DEUTSCH: I know Kathie 's watching right now . I have a crush on her . I do . She 's happily married . I just think she 's wonderful . @!KOTB: You do have a crush on her . @!DEUTSCH: And that 's the absolute truth . I have a crush on her and ... @!KOTB: And you ... @!DEUTSCH: ... that 's -- I just -- I had to say it . @!KOTB: What is it about her ? What 's the crush ? @!DEUTSCH: OK . All kidding aside . @!KOTB: Yeah . @!DEUTSCH: Because people always ask me about both of you guys . She 's just such a special person . What you see is what you get . And she 's warm and she 's different and she 's interesting . @!KOTB: Yeah . @!DEUTSCH: And she does n't , you know , give a bunk . And I love her . I think she 's just great . @!KOTB: Yeah . And ... @!DEUTSCH: All kidding aside . @!KOTB: And she @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ She has long hair . She does n't care . @!DEUTSCH: She has long hair . @!KOTB: Shakes it . @!DEUTSCH: And I think she 's very sexy . I just said it . That 's it . @!KOTB: There you have it . And I 'm fine , Donny , do n't mind me . I 'm just sitting here next to you . @!DEUTSCH: No . I -- well , your ... @!KOTB: I 'm good . I 'm good . @!DEUTSCH: Your boyfriend is younger and bigger than Frank , so I do n't want to get in trouble . @!KOTB: All right . So the Emmys were on last night and you watched , yeah ? @!DEUTSCH: Yeah . @!KOTB: And what did you think overall ? @!DEUTSCH: First of all , with the Emmys , as a guy , you 're very challenged every year because there 's always football on . @!KOTB: Yeah . @!DEUTSCH: And it 's like , football ! @!KOTB: Yeah . @!DEUTSCH: Emmys. @!KOTB: Yeah . @!DEUTSCH: Football ! Emmys. @!KOTB: Yeah . @!DEUTSCH: I watched the Emmys . What @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of us girls . @!DEUTSCH: Yes . I thought it was fun . I thought , you know , a lot of people took shots at it . I thought Mark Burnett did a good job . I liked the Charlie Sheen thing . I thought it was just so wacky , a little bit of it . What I like about the Emmys ... @!KOTB: Yeah . @!DEUTSCH: ... is that they do n't take themselves that seriously . @!KOTB: Yeah . @!DEUTSCH: You know , the Oscars , it 's -- they get up there and they talk about the journey and the craft . @!KOTB: Yeah , yeah . @!DEUTSCH: And everything . It 's movies . Whereas these guys , they 're enjoying it , they love TV. @!KOTB: Have fun . I agree . @!DEUTSCH: They do n't take themselves seriously . It 's just better to watch . @!KOTB: One of my favorite moments was when they did the Best Leading Actress in a Comedy . @!DEUTSCH: Yeah . @!KOTB: And they announced Amy Poehler first . Just the announce -- they were announcing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ onto the stage . They did n't -- they did n't announce the winner , they just started announcing the cast . OK . So she acts like she -- then they all get up there and it 's like a big pageant scene . And then Melissa McCarthy ends up winning . I loved her . She was the one ... @!DEUTSCH: Yeah . @!KOTB: ... she 's in " Mike & Molly . " @!DEUTSCH: Great . @!KOTB: But she also played in " Bridesmaids . " OK . Listen to -- I think we have a little bit of her speech . Do we ? We do n't . Because we only can get two minutes . @!DEUTSCH: That 's a perfect example . She was so genuinely happy . @!KOTB: Yeah . @!DEUTSCH: Whereas when Kate Winslet won at the end , the movie star . @!KOTB: Yeah , yeah , yeah . @!DEUTSCH: It was like self-important. @!KOTB: Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . @!DEUTSCH: And she was just -- I ca n't believe I 'm here . And it was just great @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ talked about she was from Plainfield and she could n't believe she was standing up there . @!DEUTSCH: Yeah . What a cutie pie . @!KOTB: And it was -- it was adorable. @!DEUTSCH: What an absolute cutie pie . @!KOTB: My -- one of my other favorite moments , I loved when Jimmy Fallon and Jimmy Kimmel , two of the most beloved talk show guys ever ... @!DEUTSCH: Yes . @!KOTB: ... came out together and they came out to present and it turned into this crazy wrestling match . What it was , was Jimmy Fallon said he did not have an acceptance speech in his pocket and Jimmy Kimmel was going to prove him wrong and he did . @!DEUTSCH: There it is. @!KOTB: And he did . @!DEUTSCH: You know what 's great about Jimmy , also . @!KOTB: What ? @!DEUTSCH: When he -- when his series did n't win for best series ... @!KOTB: Hm. @!DEUTSCH: ... instead of doing a clap that everybody does . @!KOTB: Yeah , yeah . @!DEUTSCH: He was like . @!KOTB: You know . @!DEUTSCH: He just @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ being funny . He 's just also one of the nicest guys . Both those guys are just such nice guys . @!KOTB: Love them . @!DEUTSCH: They really are . @!KOTB: Now ... @!DEUTSCH: Camera does n't lie . Offscreen Voice : Happy birthday . @!KOTB: And it 's Jimmy Fallon 's birthday . @!DEUTSCH: Jimmy . Happy birthday , brother . @!KOTB: We love Jimmy Fallon so much on this show , too . He 's been so kind to Kath and me. @!DEUTSCH: He 's such a nice guy . @!KOTB: He is a great guy . @!DEUTSCH: He is so genuine and he 's so talented and so genuine . @!KOTB: He 's a great guy . Now a lot of people pick this as like the big headline for the whole night and they loved this moment . It did n't resonate as much with me , I do n't know why . Charlie Sheen presented the lead actor award and he got up and he made a little speech and everyone said this was the moment of the night . Why do n't you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ From Emmy Awards ) From the bottom of my heart , I wish you nothing but the best for this upcoming season . We spent eight wonderful years together and I know you will continue to make great television . Now on to the Emmy. @!KOTB: You know what , I do n't know . I think he 's a better actor than that . I do n't know . I just -- it did n't feel -- I did n't feel it . @!DEUTSCH: It was neither fish nor fowl . It -- like he should have done it with a joke afterwards . @!KOTB: Yeah , yeah . @!DEUTSCH: And it did n't feel like genuine . It was like a little glint of smirk. @!KOTB: Yeah . @!DEUTSCH: It was the right thing to do , obviously . @!KOTB: Yeah . @!DEUTSCH: And the sexiest story is bringing a guy down and now we 're going to bring him back up . @!KOTB: Yeah . @!DEUTSCH: And he will be more than fine . @!KOTB: You do n't think that 's the sexiest story . @!DEUTSCH: It @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was one person . @!DEUTSCH: No , no , no . The sexy story in the media is taking a guy down ... @!KOTB: Whatever . Forget it , forget it . @!DEUTSCH: ... and now we 're going to bring him back up . @!KOTB: Bring up your Christina Hendricks. @!DEUTSCH: Yes . @!KOTB: This is all he 's been talking about . OK . This is ... @!DEUTSCH: That 's not true . Do n't tell Kathie ... @!KOTB: This is ... @!DEUTSCH: Here , I said I had a crush on Kathie Lee . @!KOTB: No . No , no , no. @!DEUTSCH: Now you 're going to ... @!KOTB: This is Donny 's sexiest girl right here . @!DEUTSCH: OK. @!KOTB: Now please explain , I want you to explain to me . And I think she 's adorable and gorgeous and all that . @!DEUTSCH: OK. @!KOTB: What is it about her that makes her your number one ? Go . @!DEUTSCH: OK . Maybe -- I 'm counting . There are 17 ... @!KOTB: There are two things . What are the two things @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ So I think -- you know , she -- she 's -- I do n't know , she 's kind of like old school glam . You know . I love red hair . @!KOTB: You have to -- you only can pick two things that you like about her . What are the two ? @!DEUTSCH: Two things : the dress and the hair . @!KOTB: What are the other two things ? @!DEUTSCH: No , OK , I guess the color of her skin . @!KOTB: Yeah , yeah , right . @!DEUTSCH: I just think she 's like old school Hollywood , like Sophia Loren. @!KOTB: Yeah . @!DEUTSCH: That , Gina Lollobrigida , that -- I ca n't keep going like this . @!KOTB: But she was the -- she was your favorite of the night . @!DEUTSCH: I think she was gorgeous . The ... @!KOTB: What about Sofia Vergara ? She was one of my favorites. @!DEUTSCH: Oh . Another one . Gorgeous . @!KOTB: I loved her dress . I loved Sofia Vergara 's dress and I loved Kate Winslet 's dress . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I loved . I love that look . The red look . What do you think ? @!DEUTSCH: Red , red is a hot look . Look , these are gorgeous , gorgeous women . What did you think of Gwyneth Paltrow ? @!KOTB: Oh , she wore the midriff. @!DEUTSCH: Yes , yes . @!KOTB: I thought it was gutsy to wear the midriff . She 's bone thin . @!DEUTSCH: Mm-hmm . @!KOTB: I was n't a huge fan of it . What about you ? @!DEUTSCH: Yeah . I -- I think she 's beautiful and I think even for her , that was n't flattering . She 's stick thin . And even -- when you kind of wear something and you 're -- you know , I wear those midriffs sometimes also . @!KOTB: Yeah . I 've seen . @!DEUTSCH: You know , I 'm in decent shape . @!KOTB: I know . Uh-huh . @!DEUTSCH: But it just does n't work . I did n't -- I did n't love that one . But you know , it was -- what I was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hour , they were n't glammed up all over -- every place else . @!KOTB: Yeah . @!DEUTSCH: It was the dress , it was maybe wearing -- I ca n't believe I 'm talking about fashion . I do n't know what the hell I 'm talking about . @!KOTB: Let me ask you a question . @!DEUTSCH: I think . .. @!KOTB: Let me -- let me -- let me ask you a question . @!DEUTSCH: ... purple is coming back . @!KOTB: Let me ask you a question . @!DEUTSCH: What ? @!KOTB: OK , because you 've dated many , many women . And let 's pretend -- and we talked about this last week on this show with Kath . @!DEUTSCH: Several . OK. @!KOTB: If you were wearing an outfit and your -- and you turn to your guy and you say , ' Hey , what do you think of this ? What if you were going out with Gwyneth Paltrow and you 're going to a fancy dinner and she had this dress on . What would you say to her on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do . First of all ... @!KOTB: Honest to God , first thing you 'd say . @!DEUTSCH: Honest to God . I would say , ' You always look amazing . For some reason I 've seen stuff look better on you . I mean , you look great in that , but like you look great in this and this and this and this does n't accentuate what 's so great about you . So there 's a way to do it . Because I think women want honestly . It does n't mean I 'm right . And so I will do -- I 'm not one of these guys that 's like , I want a woman to wear this . I want you guys -- a woman has to feel the way she feels when she feels good in it . @!KOTB: Do you care really what your girlfriend 's wearing ? I mean , does it really matter ? @!DEUTSCH: Yeah . Only if it was inappropriate at a business meeting or something . @!KOTB: Yeah , yeah , yeah . @!DEUTSCH: No . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to be who she is and it 's like I will never -- when I hear about these guys that we were talking earlier ... @!KOTB: Yeah . @!DEUTSCH: ... tell their wives they want them to have blond hair or they tell their wives to wear this . You know , it 's OK to say , ' Hey , I like this . But you 've got ... @!KOTB: Yes . Yes . @!DEUTSCH: ... a woman is going to be happy if she 's doing her thing . @!KOTB: Yes . @!DEUTSCH: And you 've got to -- I keep doing this again . @!KOTB: Because you ca n't help it . You 're a hands guy . @!DEUTSCH: Yeah . Yeah . @!KOTB: So if you happen to be paging through the pages of Architecture Digest*** ( as spoken ) . @!DEUTSCH: Oh God , here we go . @!KOTB: This is an apartment you 've seen . Now I 've only seen it because my book party was in there , but Donny -- this is Donny 's apartment in Architecture Digest . Oh my @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it at the book party and I 'm sorry . @!DEUTSCH: Yes . There was no furniture in there . @!KOTB: We ruined the floors and everything . @!DEUTSCH: Yes . @!KOTB: But this is your spot . @!DEUTSCH: All right . @!KOTB: Are those your shoes ? @!DEUTSCH: I have -- OK . OK. @!KOTB: You are disgusting . @!DEUTSCH: I ca n't believe there 's all these great pictures of my -- and you 're going to go show my shoes . No . I have T-shirts and jeans and long-sleeved T-shirts and sneakers and shoes . That 's pretty much ... @!KOTB: Did you design this whole deal , by the way ? @!DEUTSCH: I mean , I have a brilliant architect , Fred Schwartz , great interior people at Tony Ingrao. @!KOTB: You have a -- oh . @!DEUTSCH: It 's a really fun , happy place . And I hope you have pictures of my little girls rooms . @!KOTB: It 's white . @!DEUTSCH: Because that 's my favorite rooms . They are ... @!KOTB: OK , everything 's white . Who 's room @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ play room . Look how cute that is . Those are all heart-shaped chairs . @!KOTB: That 's a cupcake ? @!DEUTSCH: That 's my dad 's painting in the back there , by the way . That 's just a happy -- my little girls , London and Daisy , the little eight and four . @!KOTB: Yeah . @!DEUTSCH: The most delicious things in the world . @!KOTB: They are sweet . @!DEUTSCH: We do Wii in there , we do the dance thing . @!KOTB: What 's the dance ? @!DEUTSCH: Well , the dance , you put on a dance . It 's called -- I forget what it 's called , but you put on , let 's say it 's Britney Spears . @!KOTB: On TV ? Yeah . @!DEUTSCH: And you dance and it 's a contest and I usually come out ... @!KOTB: You dance with them ? @!DEUTSCH: I dance with them . @!KOTB: How cute are you ? @!DEUTSCH: Honestly , I ... @!KOTB: That 's cute . @!DEUTSCH: If I had more kids , I would want all girls @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ something about daddies and their girls . And I find it less -- this is -- this is going to sound sexist if I do n't mean this right , if I had a boy ... @!KOTB: Yeah . @!DEUTSCH: ... I would feel I have to mold them and I -- not overshadow them . @!KOTB: Yeah , yeah . @!DEUTSCH: With a girl , I want them to be great , I want to teach them , but I want to take care of them . @!KOTB: But are n't you worried about like when they get to the dating age . And you do have one daughter who 's way beyond that , that 's grown . @!DEUTSCH: She 's grown . She 's 24 , yes . @!KOTB: Right . But it 's scary , is n't it , when they get to that age ? @!DEUTSCH: I ... @!KOTB: How would you navigate that stuff ? @!DEUTSCH: Here , what 's interesting , and this is going to be counterintuitive . I talked about this on one of the segments last week . @!KOTB: Mm-hmm @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of these dads . I do n't want my daughter dating until she 's 30. @!KOTB: Yeah . @!DEUTSCH: I would rather my daughter 's first relationship , maybe when she 's 16 and 17 , to be with a loving boy . @!KOTB: OK. @!DEUTSCH: That has a good experience , that -- vs. like not have a relationship until she 's 21 and it be a jerky guy . @!KOTB: Yeah , yeah , yeah . @!DEUTSCH: I just want their first relationships to be happy and make them feel good as a woman . @!KOTB: Uh-huh . @!DEUTSCH: And to me , I 'm not -- you know , and that 's natural at 16 and 17 , or whatever that is. @!KOTB: Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . @!DEUTSCH: So as a parent , you pick the age , but these -- the guy comes in , I 'm going to hit him with a baseball bat . No. @!KOTB: Yeah , yeah , yeah . @!DEUTSCH: As long as he 's a nice guy . @!KOTB: But are n't you -- you are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ who might step into your daughters lives ? Because there are a lot of jerks . I mean , we 've all dated them so we know . @!DEUTSCH: If they 're jerks , they die . That 's it . That 's it . And you know , they 're never going to love anybody like they love daddy and everybody understands that going in. @!KOTB: Yeah . Exactly . @!DEUTSCH: And that 's -- well , I just want them to be with sweet boys that I can beat up . @!KOTB: By the way , this has nothing to do with anything , but on Sunday , I woke up and I looked on my Twitter and I had been hacked . @!DEUTSCH: What do you mean ? @!KOTB: My Twitter -- someone had figured out -- I guess my password and sent out an e-mail on some scam thing like a way to work at home , work -- get a job at home . So people were writing back saying , hey , thanks so much . I 'm going to try this work at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , blah . And I did n't know how to pull it back . If someone retweets something you tweet , you ca n't pull it off . It 's already stuck out there . You ca n't do anything . @!DEUTSCH: You know what ... @!KOTB: So it 's a big pain in the neck when that happens . @!DEUTSCH: ... there 's too much of everything . @!KOTB: You tweet , do n't you ? @!DEUTSCH: I tweet . There 's too much of everything going on . There 's too much interconnectivity. @!KOTB: Yeah . @!DEUTSCH: There 's too -- something is going to go wrong bad . I just -- yuck . @!KOTB: Yeah . You 're -- OK. @!DEUTSCH: Yuck . @!KOTB: All right . So our favorite things . It 's time for our favorite things . Now I am going to go with this . Now it 's the summertime and so you -- I mean , it 's the fall and you 're going to have to put on makeup and all that stuff and I hate putting on makeup on the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I love this stuff . It is -- you put a primer on your face and then all you do is , it 's like thick base powder . So you do n't have to put a foundation and then a powder . It 's a one-stop shopping all in one . @!DEUTSCH: That . Look at that . @!KOTB: Glow Minerals . Hello . What 's yours ? @!DEUTSCH: OK . This is for all the women out there . @!KOTB: Oh yeah . @!DEUTSCH: Forget expensive watches . I love wearing these like G-Shock watches with suits . @!KOTB: They 're ... @!DEUTSCH: They 're 100 bucks and it 's like cool . Like who says you have to wear a serious watch with a suit . @!KOTB: Oh , hold up , hold up there . @!DEUTSCH: I mean , look at this . It 's like this one is like glow in the dark . @!KOTB: Yeah . @!DEUTSCH: And it 's just fun . And like these G-Shocks , and so like , my whole thing is ... @!KOTB: You would wear this with a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!DEUTSCH: Not the yellow one . I wear a white one with a suit . I wear -- I have a -- the dark blue . @!KOTB: What is that telling people ? @!DEUTSCH: You know what it 's telling me ? It 's a signal . It says , you know , I take myself seriously and I 'm a serious guy . @!KOTB: Yeah . @!DEUTSCH: But I -- there 's a wink going on . There 's something else going on and I 'm not conventional . So I 'm telling you great present for the husbands out there . Enough with the fancy -- who needs an expensive watch ? @!KOTB: Nobody . @!DEUTSCH: You know , you do n't need it . It 's irrelevant . And this is like cooler . @!KOTB: It is cooler . @!SARA-HAINES-report: @(Unintelligible) @!DEUTSCH: This is like cooler . @!KOTB: Yeah . @!DEUTSCH: The yellow , I 'm going to put this one on . @!KOTB: Put the yellow one on . Show up . @!DEUTSCH: A pink tie . @!KOTB: What have you got , Sara , what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , this is really good . This is the Mira lip gloss . @!DEUTSCH: I 'm coming over . Why does nobody ever come over here ? @!KOTB: They do sometimes . @!HAINES: Sometimes they bring drinks to me . They throw food at me. @!DEUTSCH: OK . I 'm coming over . I 'm coming over here . I want to sit with Sara . @!KOTB: Tell . @!DEUTSCH: We do n't spend any time together . @!HAINES: You can try this out . This is amazing . @!DEUTSCH: OK. @!HAINES: It 's pomegranate , it has SPF 15. @!KOTB: Yeah . @!HAINES: Everyone knows you do n't -- just like your makeup thing . @!DEUTSCH: What , is this something a man would put on ? What is this ? @!HAINES: Of course it is . Go . It 's $12 at Sephora. @!KOTB: Yeah . @!HAINES: But it has -- oh my God . I 'm going to have to wipe that off . @!DEUTSCH: This is -- this is not like lipstick . This is like lip gloss . @!HAINES: It 's lip gloss . @!KOTB: @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!DEUTSCH: Oh no . I 'm not supposed to wear this . @!HAINES: No , you 're fine . You 're fine . You dance with your daughters , you sit on the heart chairs . @!DEUTSCH: Remember the -- remember the football , Emmys . Emmys. @!HAINES: And we -- yeah . He 's owning it right now . This is -- it 's pomegranate flavored , but it like moisturizes your lips . @!KOTB: Right . @!HAINES: But it 's also like you do n't need to put anything else on . You just whip some gloss on . @!KOTB: I like it . @!HAINES: And you 'll look like Donny . @!KOTB: I kind of like it . @!DEUTSCH: I 've got to say something . This is -- now I 'm being completely serious here . @!KOTB: Yeah . @!HAINES: You like it , do n't you ? @!DEUTSCH: Why ca n't -- like -- I 'm trying to say this the right way because otherwise I 'm just I 'm revealing too much here . @!KOTB: How does that feel , Donny ? @!HAINES: Why @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ca n't -- this feels good . Like this is ... @!HAINES: I know it does . @!DEUTSCH: I would never put this on , well , I would , but I just would n't tell anybody . @!KOTB: All right , kids , kids , not to give you the hard rap . @!DEUTSCH: Look , I 'm sorry , I 'm sorry . @!HAINES: @(Unintelligible) @!KOTB: But I want to say hi to two people that we have standing over there . We have to say hi to a couple of people who are visiting us , Brandy and Laura . Hey . @!DEUTSCH: Hi , guys . @!KOTB: They came to see us , so we 're glad that they came to visit . We 've got a lot coming up . By the way , keep the cutest babies coming . We 've got to show you a couple of pictures here . @!DEUTSCH: They 're all cute . @!KOTB: Remember , ages birth to two and only one entry per person . Look at Savannah . @!DEUTSCH: So cute . @!KOTB: Liam . No , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ God , this ... @!KOTB: No , all day long . @!DEUTSCH: Let 's just do this for the rest of the show . @!KOTB: All day . Madison . @!DEUTSCH: Look at that face . @!KOTB: Come on . William and Harrison . You guys , go to our Facebook page . @!DEUTSCH: How do you choose ? You ca n't choose . Look at that . @!KOTB: Oh , my God ! @!DEUTSCH: Look at that . Oh . @!KOTB: Oh . @!DEUTSCH: That 's a punim . We call that a punim. @!KOTB: OK . Look at Hunter . So keep sending your baby 's pictures in . We 're going to keep putting them on the air and we are going to -- we 're going to narrow it down and we 're going to have the cutest baby . We 're going to pick them . I do n't know how that 's going to happen . @!DEUTSCH: How do you pick the cutest ? How do you do that ? @!KOTB: We 're going to do it . We are going to do it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? @!KOTB: Oh , we ca n't reveal that right now . @!DEUTSCH: OK . Does Tammy do it ? @!KOTB: Anyway ... @!DEUTSCH: Actually , I heard Steve Burke is being called in from NBC headquarters to make that choice . @!KOTB: Yes , he 'll take care of it . @!DEUTSCH: Yes . @!KOTB: All right . Coming up next , you guys , Kendra Wilkinson 's wild ride from stripper to new mom and everything and we mean everything in between . She 's with us. @!DEUTSCH: All right . Oh . And then it 's TODAY 'S BUZZ . A look at last night 's Emmys and all the other Hollywood happenings . I was looking at Kendra. @!KOTB: But first , these -- of course you were -- these messages . '

@@4103141 @!SCOTT-PELLEY-CBS-: Tonight , could it be ? The economy turning a corner ? A third quarter of increasing growth , a debt deal in Europe , and the Dow is on pace for one of its best months in decades . Anthony Mason is on Wall Street . When your life is a lie , how do you explain that to your wife ? Ruth Madoff tells " 60 Minutes " about the day Bernie confessed to her . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-C@!@ @!RUTH-MADOFF: I was kind of paralyzed . Bernie got up and said I 'm going back to the office . @(END-VIDEO-C@!@ @!PELLEY: Hundreds of railroad workers cash in on disability and then head to the golf course . Sharyl Attkisson says it may have cost a billion dollars . And a mystery under the sea . Why do patients with paralysis seem to get better after diving . Dr. Sanjay Gupta reports . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-C@!@ @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE: Almost all the subjects got stronger after going diving . Kind of completely blew us out of the water . @(END-VIDEO-C@!@ @!ANNOUNCER: This is the CBS EVENING NEWS with Scott Pelley. @!PELLEY: Good evening . If you were looking for the day the economy @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ The government told us that growth accelerated in the third quarter - and have a look at the trend . Growth in the first quarter was 0.4 percent . In the second quarter , 1.3 percent . And today 's number 2.5 percent . That 's still weak , but there is a hint of momentum . Earlier today , the Europeans worked out a plan to contain their debt crisis and that sent markets surging . The Dow Industrials closed up 339.51 , for October , the Dow is up more than 11 percent -- on track for its largest one-month percentage gain in 25 years , which brings us to our favorite picture of the day : a man on a German trading floor . Too much optimism in that face ? Maybe . 14 million Americans are still out of work . So we turn for perspective to Anthony Mason at the New York Stock Exchange . Anthony ? @!ANTHONY-MASON-CBS: That huge rally this month , Scott , has pushed stocks into positive territory for the year . The 2.5 percent growth in GDP shows the economy @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't stalled . That 's eased recession fears for the moment , but it has n't erased them . @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @!MASON: The mood may be improving on Wall Street , but there 's still nervousness on main street . In Naples , Florida , at the Bellini on Fifth restaurant , owner Max Furetta usually starts hiring for his peak season right about now . But the economic uncertainty worries him . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE: We are profitable and we are making money , but we 're also very cautious about hiring new personnel . @!MASON: Consumer spending was surprisingly strong in the last quarter -- up 2.4 percent , the biggest jump since the end of last year . At Ford , auto sales revved up nine percent in September . @!ALAN-MULALLY: I think sales are going to continue to increase . @!MASON: So CEO Alan Mulally says Ford plans to add more than 12,000 new jobs in engineering and manufacturing over the next four years . @!MULALLY: We 're very pleased with the recovery . Would we like it to be more , yes , but clearly , the most @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ forecasting a happier holiday season , projecting a 2.8 percent sales increase . That 's better than the average for the past decade . With electronics and appliance giant Best Buy says it 'll hire only 14,000 holiday workers this year , half the number it hired last year . @(on-camera) : And I 've heard it said that we 're one crisis away from a recession . Do you think we 're still at that point ? @!MARK-ZANDI: Yeah , I think we 're very vulnerable . @!MASON-@1voice-over: Economist Mark Zandi says confidence will have to improve before businesses will aggressively hire again . @!ZANDI: Until that happens , our economy is going to be very fragile and at risk of anything else goings wrong we 'll go back into recession . @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!MASON: So , the economy still faces some pretty strong headwinds -- the weak job market , the weak housing market and consumer confidence which Bloomberg said today has now sunk to the lowest level since the recession . @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!PELLEY: Anthony , I want to ask you about that European debt deal that the leaders @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ banks to take a 50 percent loss on Greek debts , it strengthens an emergency bailout fund and it forces banks to keep more cash on hand . But I wonder , is that going to solve the problem ? @!MASON: I think , Scott , what it does , is it buys the Europeans some time . There are still an awful lot of details to be worked out , but this is at least finally a realistic framework for a solution . @!PELLEY: That gross domestic product number that we got today , the value of all the goods and services in America , you 've been analyzing that and you found out something remarkable . @!MASON: Yeah , what we see now , Scott , is that the economy actually has finally recovered . The gross domestic product has hit $13.3 trillion , that surpasses the previous peak before the recession back in 2007 . Now , at the bottom , GDP sank to $12.6 trillion , so technically the economy now has recovered . The job market , of course , is a different story . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ economy is growing , economists that we talked to today told us that folks at home really wo n't feel it until the growth rate hits something more like four percent . The economic collapse exposed the colossal fraud of Bernie Madoff . He 's serving 150 years for swindling investors out of nearly $20 billion . His family has been in seclusion , but in a story for " 60 Minutes , " Madoff 's wife Ruth tells Morley Safer about the December day in 2008 when Bernie confessed to her . @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @!RUTH-MADOFF: I was kind of paralyzed . Bernie got up and said I 'm going back to the office . @!MORLEY-SAFER: Was he emotional in any way ? @!MADOFF: I do n't remember that . He must have been . @!SAFER: Apologetic in any way ? @!MADOFF: Probably . Yes . I 'm sort of a blind now . I 'm not hedging here , I do n't -- I just simply do n't remember every detail I was in such a state . @!SAFER: Later that day , that evening , you both turned up @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ He phoned me from the office and said we have to go to the office Christmas party . So I got myself together and went over there . We stayed a half an hour and we just went home . And the next morning the FBI was there to arrest him about 7:00 a.m. @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!PELLEY: You can see the rest of Morley 's interview with Madoff 's wife and his son Sunday night on " 60 Minutes . " In Oakland , California , the police chief is promising a vigorous investigation into violent clashes there on Tuesday night . Anti-Wall Street protestors accused police of using excessive force . The confrontation left Iraq war veteran Scott Olsen with a fractured skull . But it 's not clear how Olsen was injured or who was responsible . Doctors today upgraded his condition to fair . There has been an increase in cross-border violence with a country that is supposed to be America 's ally . A top U.S. general said today that American troops in Afghanistan are increasingly coming under fire from across the border in Pakistan . Here @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Afghan side of the boarder have experienced a dramatic increase in mortar and rocket attacks launched from inside Pakistan . @!LT-GENERAL-CURTIS-: The cross-border fires this year are about - are over four times higher than they had been in the past - past years . They 're considerably higher . @!MARTIN: It 's not just the increase that worries Lieutenant General Curtis Scaparrotti , commander of U.S. forces in Afghanistan , but the fact that some of the attacks are carried out under the noses of the Pakistani military which does nothing to stop them . @!SCAPARROTTI: We have seen indications where fires have originated from positions that were in close proximity to some Pakistan outposts which as you might imagine , give us great concern . @!MARTIN: The attacks are occurring in an area controlled by the Haqqani network , a violent insurgent faction which U.S. officials say is supported by Pakistani intelligence . It 's a baffling double game , in which , as Secretary of State Clinton explained , Pakistan backs Haqqani attacks on Americans like this one last month on the U.S. embassy while at the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and the Haqqanis. @!HILLARY-RODHAM-C @ ! LI : This was done in part because I think the Pakistanis hoped to be able to move the Haqqani network towards some kind of peace negotiation and the answer was an attack on our embassy . @!MARTIN: Last week , Secretary Clinton warned the Pakistanis there would be a very big price to pay if they continue supporting terrorists . @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!MARTIN: Since then , a Pentagon official says there have been no reports of cross-border shelling . @!PELLEY: David , thank you very much . Four days have passed since that big earthquake that rocked Turkey . The death toll is now 534 . Survival for anyone buried alive today seems incredible , but it is not impossible . A rescue team from Azerbaijan found that out today when they pulled an 18-year-old man alive from the debris . A college student in Ercis had been trapped for 100 hours . He 's said to be in good condition , one of 185 people that authorities say have been found alive . And remember this rescue that we showed you on Tuesday @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? Today we saw the mother and child reunited at a hospital -- an image that gives comfort where comfort is scarce . We wondered how long people can survive , and the U.S. Geological Survey told us today that six days without food or water is about the limit . Federal prosecutors call it a billion-dollar fraud to scam disability pensions . The part-time Congress . The new House schedule means your congressman is n't likely to be overworked . And we go in search of the most typical human . The face that 's one in 7 billion when the CBS EVENING NEWS continues . @!PELLEY: Last week , we told you Social Security recipients are getting a raise tied to the inflation rate . Well , today we hear that seniors will be paying more for Medicare premiums next year . The government raised the basic monthly payment for Part B to $99.90 and for most folks that 's an a increase of about $3.50 a month . Talk about cleaning up in retirement , though . 11 people have been charged in New York tonight in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ accused of faking disabilities to fatten their pensions . The losses may be gigantic and we asked Sharyl Attkisson to look into that . @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @!SHARYL-ATTKISSON-: The suspects arraigned today in U.S. district court in Manhattan are accused in a widespread fraud connected to the Long Island Railroad , @!LIRR . The scheme awarded disability payments to nearly every retired union worker who applied . Preet Bharara @(ph) is the prosecuting U.S. attorney . @!PREET-BHARARA: Employees in many cases after claiming to be too disabled to stand , sit , walk , or climb steps retired to lives of regular golf , tennis , biking and aerobics. @!ATTKISSON: " The New York Times " first investigated in 2008 and videotaped supposedly disabled retirees enjoying golf , including former United Transportation Union official Joseph Rutigliano . Prosecutors say another defendant played tennis and golfed 140 times in 2008 while collecting over $100,000 in annual pension and disability payments . Others were observed shoveling heavy snow and riding a 400 mile bike tour around New York State . Also under arrest are two doctors who allegedly made millions running disability fraud mills @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 453 @!LIRR patients over four years and made $2.5 million in revenue from them . Those patients have got $90 million in disability benefits and are slated to get $210 million more in future payments . @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!ATTKISSON: Authorities estimate the ultimate cost to the railroad retirement board could be a billion dollars . The defendants will continue to get their disability until and unless they 're found guilty . @!PELLEY: Sharyl , thank you very much . Our CBS News/ " New York Times " poll this week showed congressional job approval is at an all-time low -- nine percent . Well , this story wo n't help much . Today the House of Representatives announced that it will be in session for just 109 days next year which , of course , is an election year . By comparison , the House met 127 times last year , 159 times in 2009 . A new way to treat paralysis . Can scuba diving help patients begin to regain their feeling ? The results of a new study are next . @!PELLEY: The FDA is raising serious questions tonight @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ It says that the pill , called Yaz , puts women at a 75 percent greater risk of blood clots than older forms of birth control . A new study may be giving hope to people with paralysis . Researchers have found that patients had improved feeling and function after they had been scuba diving . We asked CNN 's Dr. Sanjay Gupta , a CBS News contributor , to show us the results . @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL: My family , my friends . @!DR-SANJAY-GUPTA-C: Cody Unser seemed to have a story book childhood . @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL: I liked defense a lot . @!GUPTA: She was a natural athlete with a famous father -- former race car driver Al Unser , Jr . It ended when she was 12. @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL: I went down to touch my left leg and it was numb . I looked to my mom and said what 's happening to me ? @!GUPTA: As documented by " 48 Hours " in 1999 , Unseer was diagnosed with transverse miolitis , It 's a disease that causes the immune system to attack the spinal cord . @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL: Au ! @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL: Yes ! @!GUPTA: She was paralyzed from the chest down . Early on , one thing that gave her freedom from her wheelchair was scuba diving . Now 24 years old ... @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL: It 's so liberating and so freeing down there , you know ? And my body just feels so -- I do n't know . I feel like I 'm flying . @!GUPTA: But you also notice something else , right ? About the scuba diving in terms of your own body ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL: Oh , yes . @!GUPTA: What else were you starting to notice ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL: I was starting to notice some sensation in my legs . @!GUPTA: Unser was so sure those sensations were from the scuba , she convinced her neurologists at Johns Hopkins and Kennedy Krieger Institute to study it . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE: This is brand new . It has not been done and that 's why there 's no comparison . @!GUPTA: Neurologists Daniel Becker and Adam Kaplin took Unser along with ten paralyzed veterans on a four-day dive trip to the Cayman Islands . All were tested for motor control @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to depths of more than 60 feet , a depth where the pressure on the body is nearly triple the normal atmospheric pressure on the surface . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE: Biceps on the right is one , triceps is one . Almost all the subjects got stronger after going diving . And it kind of completely blew us out of the water . @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL: I thought this is kind of odd . And it lasted for about three weeks . It was n't just in the water and then it went away as soon as I got up on the surface . @!GUPTA: At those depths , nitrogen builds up in the bloodstream . Researchers say the leading theory is that nitrogen accumulation in the subjects ' tissues as a result of repeated dives may increase levels of the chemical serotonin in their central nervous systems which might jumpstart nerves in the spine without input from the brain . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE: There could be a back door in to reactivating sort of circuitry that already exists in the spinal cord and you just have to be able to go back and find the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ reteach it how to work again . @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL: Just throw it down . They say it will help create something that 's much larger than myself . I would love to walk again . And , you know , put my feet in the sand . @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!GUPTA: Now , if results can be repeated in larger studies , researchers believe it could open up a whole new avenue of research for helping paralyzed patients regain function outside of things like electrical stimulation and stem cell transplants . In fact , this Hopkins team believes Cody may in her lifetime , Scott , feel her legs and be able to feel that sand in between her toes that she talked about . @!PELLEY: You know , Sanjay , I 'm curious . What do other neurologists think of this research ? @!GUPTA: You know , what 's interesting . I think a lot of them were somewhat skeptical initially , thinking that scuba diving could actually cause a sort of @(inaudible) regain of function . Now they recognize that it appears to be true , figuring out what 's the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ how do you replicate that ? Obviously you 're not going to take people on scuba diving trips all the time , but if there 's something specifically with the nitrogen , for example , can you deliver that in a different way ? That 's what they sort of went ahead with this . @!PELLEY: Sanjay , thanks very much . @!GUPTA: Thank you , Scott . @!PELLEY: The human race is set to reach a milestone , which sent us in search of the most typical person on earth . That 's next . @!PELLEY: The U.N . says the world 's population will reach 7 billion on Monday , and that population is accelerating . From our first billion in 1804 to 4 billion in 1974 and past 6 billion two decades later . What are the most common characteristics of humans today ? We sent Mark Strassmann to show us. @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @!MARK-STRASSMANN-C: Hidden in this crowd is someone who best represents all 7 billion human beings . @!KAIT @ ! LIN-YARNELL : What are the qualities or characteristics that make up each one of us ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ magazine searched population data for humanity 's most common characteristics to create a profile of earth 's most typical person . The " National Geographic " researchers found 9 million people had the most in common . They overlaid the faces of 190,000 of them to create this image . Meet earth 's every man . @!YARNELL: He 's Han Chinese , he 's 28 years old . He is Christian . He speaks Mandarin . He does not have a car , does not have a bank account . You know , the reaction here among our staff was hey , I 've seen that guy . @!STRASSMANN: So we went looking for that guy . We called and e-mailed Chinese American groups around the country for help and one of them led us to Main Street in Queens , New York , and Mu Li @(ph) . He arrived five months ago from Chongqing , a southwest China mega city of 28 million people . Li 's working in New York as a reporter for " The People 's Daily , " China 's state newspaper . @(on-camera) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Was Mandarin your first language ? @!LI: Yes . @!STRASSMANN: Can you read ? @!LI: Of course I can , yes . @!STRASSMANN: You have a lot of the qualities of the typical person . @!LI: You know I have a common face . Yes . Common background . Yes . Suddenly you realize , you say . Wow ! You are the most typical person in the world . @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!STRASSMANN: Li fits other criteria . He 's right-handed , works in a service industry , lives in a city , owns a cell phone but no car . This is the photo . We showed him " National Geographic 's " composite image . @(on-camera) : Do you see yourself in that photograph ? @!LI: Yes . @!STRASSMANN: But you 're better looking than that @!LI: Well , do you think so ? @(laughs) . @!STRASSMANN: Li 's rein as earth 's everyman will not that long . Earth 's population could reach 8 billion people in 2026 . By then the most typical human will be from India . Mark Strassmann , CBS News , New York @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ CBS EVENING NEWS for tonight . For all of us at CBS News all around the world , good night .

@@4103341 @!KOTB , co-host : It is time to regroup with our GUYS TELL ALL panel , has just gathered to help you all make rhyme or reason of your man . First up we 've got the signature single guy , David Good . David is the author of " The Man Code : A Woman 's Guide to Cracking the Tough Guy . " @!KATHIE-LEE-GIFFORD: Next is the very funny , he tells us , Chuck Nice . @!Mr-CHUCK-NICE: I like that . @!GIFFORD: Who can be seen every week on tru TV 's ... @!GIFFORD: and @!KOTB: ( In unison ) ... " World 's Dumbest. " @!GIFFORD: And every Saturday morning as the host of " The Hot 10 " on Centric. @!KOTB: A television channel . @!GIFFORD: He 's been married for 14 years and has two school aged kids . @!Mr-NICE: And has a new show on HGTV coming out this January 5th , Thursday night , 8 PM , watch it . @!GIFFORD: What 's it called ? @!Mr-NICE: It 's called " Price This Place . " @!GIFFORD: OK , that would be helpful if you ... @(unintelligible) . @!Mr-NICE: Thank you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Then we have comedian and actor Rick Younger who 's married with a toddler son , and has been on so many commercials this Christmas season , you ca n't turn on the TV without seeing ... @!Mr-RICK-YOUNGER: I 'm just trying to feed that toddler son . Yes . @!GIFFORD: Feed that toddler . @!KOTB: Yes . @!GIFFORD: And last but not least is pop culture commentator Joe Levy . He has been married for six years . That 's a miracle . @!KOTB: That 's shocking . @!GIFFORD: OK . So here we are , guys . @!KOTB: All right . @!GIFFORD: Good to have you back . @!KOTB: All right . Let 's go across the street to Ms. Sara . Hey , Sara . @!SARA-HAINES-report: @!Hi-I'm-here-with-B# @!BRITNEY: Hi . I just recently turned 30 and I was wondering does the dating change after 30 and does guys still chase the woman they want ? @!Mr-NICE: Yes . @!Mr-DAVID-GOOD: Yes . @!Mr-NICE: It 's just that those guys happen to be much older than 30 . But they are still chasing what they want , which @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ guys are 45 , probably with kids -- probably with kids . @!KOTB: Yeah . @!Mr-GOOD: And , yeah , older . @!KOTB: Yeah , but does it change ? I mean ... @!GIFFORD: But a guy 30 does n't want a woman 30 ? Yeah . @!Mr-NICE: Sure . @!Mr-GOOD: I 'm 30. @!Mr-NICE: Would you go out with a 30-year-old ? @!Mr-GOOD: No. @!Mr-NICE: Oh . @!Mr-JOE-LEVY: Oh ! @!Mr-GOOD: Yeah . @!GIFFORD: Younger ? @!KOTB: Why not ? @!Mr-GOOD: Yeah , I want somebody younger . @!KOTB: But wait , why not ? Why would n't you go out with this girl ? She 's gorgeous . What about her ? @!GIFFORD: She 's beautiful . @!Mr-GOOD: She is beautiful . Let -- all right , fine , set it up . @!Mr-YOUNGER: Well look , I 'm ... @!Mr-GOOD: Let 's do it . @!GIFFORD: All right , we 're going to set it up . @!Mr-GOOD: Set it up , set it up . @!Mr-YOUNGER: Bring her up here right now . @!BRITNEY: All right . Sure . @!KOTB: Oh , my God . @!HAINES: @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!GIFFORD: OK . We can make that happen . @!Mr-NICE: OK , I got to tell you , she did n't look very excited about that . I 'm just saying . I was looking at her , she was just like , ' What the heck did I get into ? ' @!MR-GOOD: Maybe she wants somebody younger . She wants somebody younger . ' @!BRITNEY: No , no , no . I want a mature man , trust me. @!Mr-GOOD: You can move on , then . Get out of here . @!KOTB: All right , kids . @!GIFFORD: Wow , it 's hot in here . @!KOTB: Let 's get to our next question . This is a Facebook question from Kelley . Why do men look at other women and then act like they did n't ? @!Mr-LEVY: All right , this is -- this is instinct vs. training . Instinct says look , training says , ' I should n't , so that 's what happens . @!Mr-YOUNGER: No. @!KOTB: Rick , what do you think ? @!Mr-YOUNGER: Well , like I always say @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a beautiful woman when I see one . @!KOTB: Yeah . @!Mr-YOUNGER: But I know my wife does n't want me just sitting there just like , ' Aaaa. ' @!Mr-LEVY: Well , that 's it . @!Mr-YOUNGER: So I , you know , I have to like , you know , if she 's walking down the street , I time it so that when she is going past ... @!Mr-LEVY: You do . You got to time it . @!Mr-YOUNGER: ... then I have a reason to look at something back that way . Bam . And then I keep moving forward . @!GIFFORD: And now you 're busted and now she knows . @!Mr-YOUNGER: Right . @!Mr-LEVY: Well I think -- I think she already knew . @!Mr-YOUNGER: I will change my technique now . I wanted to share that with the people out there and now I got a new one and I 'll let y'all know about that later . @!Mr-NICE: I told m wife , ' I 'm looking . I love you . I 'm going to be with you for the rest @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ because she is leaving . You will be here . ' @!GIFFORD: Oh , oh . @!Mr-NICE: I 'm never going to see her again . @!Mr-LEVY: It 's worked for 14 years ? @!Mr-NICE: I 'm never going to see her again , so I 'm looking . @!KOTB: All right , Jim . @!GIFFORD: Yeah . But if you look too long you 'll be leaving . @!KOTB: Yes . We 're going to take a little commercial break , boys , and we 're going to be back with our man panel after your local news . @!GIFFORD: This is so riveting . @(Kotb-yawns) *** @!KOTB: And we 're back again with our man panel . David Good , Chuck Nice , Rick Younger , Joe Levy and more of GUYS TELL ALL . OK ... @!GIFFORD: And more questions . @!KOTB: Yes . Back across the street to Miss Sara . @!HAINES: OK . I 'm here with Bobbie from Boise . @!KOTB: Uh-huh . @!GIFFORD: Bobbie from Boise . @!HAINES: And she 's got a question about communication . @!KOTB: Is n't that cute ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ dancer . @!KOTB: Anyway . @!BOBBIE: My question is , why do men like to -- from your perspective -- do texting instead of calling personally on a phone to ask a woman out or to even anything . @!KOTB: Yeah . @!BOBBIE: To go to texting instead of the phone call . @!KOTB: @(Unintelligible) @!Mr-LEVY: This is -- this is -- this is so simple . Men are lazy . Men are lazy . It 's easier . It 's ... @!GIFFORD: But would n't you rather hear a woman 's voice ? @!KOTB: Do n't -- are n't you intrigued by ... @!Mr-LEVY: Only if I know exactly what she 's saying and she 's saying exactly what I want . @!Mr-GOOD: It 's easier . @!Mr-YOUNGER: Me , personally , I prefer -- I prefer the telephone . @!Mr-GOOD: You can think about what you 're going to say to a woman . @!KOTB: What do you think ? What do you think ? @!Mr-YOUNGER: It 's like ... @!KOTB: Yeah . @!Mr-YOUNGER: ... you know , you spend so much time and then you ca n't @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!Mr-YOUNGER: So I like to talk . @!KOTB: You pick up . @!Mr-YOUNGER: But I think also that might be a generational thing as well . @!Mr-NICE: Yeah , it is. @!KOTB: Yeah . @!Mr-GOOD: I enjoy texting . I like texting . It 's easy . You can do it on your own time , think about what you want to say . @!Mr-NICE: Good . @!KOTB: But would you ask a girl out on a text ? @!Mr-GOOD: Oh no . I 'd never ask her out by text . @!Mr-NICE: No , you 're not going to ask them out in a text . @!Mr-GOOD: No. @!KOTB: OK. @!Mr-NICE: But I would rather communicate through texting. @!Mr-GOOD: But once you 're in there -- yeah . @!GIFFORD: Because you are married . @!Mr-NICE: Right . And that means I can control how much you talk because I am texting . So you know , I do n't want to call you because then 25 minutes later I 'm still on the phone going , yeah , yeah , OK , all right , oh , I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are geared . Guys do n't sit here -- we wo n't sit here and have a conversation like girls do and we 're up in there like this . @!Mr-NICE: Well , if you did it like that I would . @!KOTB: Here is Jennifer . OK . Here 's her question . " My man thinks that showing affection makes him whipped and makes him look weak in front of his buddies , but very loveable behind closed doors . What 's the deal ? " So he 's too different guys , one in front of his friends and one at home . @!Mr-NICE: Oh , he 's immature . @!Mr-YOUNGER: Yeah . @!Mr-NICE: What a -- what a little pup he is , how cute . How cute is that ? You 've got to be tough in front of your buddies. @!GIFFORD: Yeah . @!KOTB: Trying to impress the guys . @!Mr-NICE: You 've got to impress the guys . Ah . Go , what 's up . @!GIFFORD: So a man who 's in love wo n't care who 's around ? @!Mr-NICE: No @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I realized that I was not going to have sex with my friends . @!Mr-GOOD: Know who you 're going home with , exactly . @!KOTB: All right . Let 's go back across to Sara . Hey , Sara . @!HAINES: Oh , is it me ? We 've got Cheryl from Nashville with a question about gifts . @!CHERYL: Hi . I 'd like to know if you think it 's inappropriate for a spouse to volunteer their wish list ? @!Mr-NICE: What do you mean volunteer ? @!Mr-LEVY: Oh , no , no , no , no. @!Mr-NICE: Do you mean tell your husband what you want ? @!CHERYL: Yes . @!Mr-NICE: Oh , I love you . Thank you . @!Mr-YOUNGER: No , I want to know . Yes . @!Mr-NICE: Thank you . Thank you so much . @!Mr-GOOD: We 're not mind readers . @!Mr-LEVY: Yes . @!Mr-NICE: You mean I do n't have to guess or actually do some detective work to figure out what the hell you want ? Thank you . @!Mr-YOUNGER: I want to get it right , so please @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you want because , you know . @!Mr-LEVY: And the thing is that most men are terrible at paying attention . @!KOTB: Yeah . @!Mr-LEVY: Women tell you what they want all the time . @!GIFFORD: Does your wife tell you ? Does she tell what you want -- what she wants ? @!Mr-LEVY: Men are not listening . No . I actually pay attention . I pay attention and I check her Web browsing history . And then I know exactly to buy her . @!GIFFORD: You check her Web browsing history ? @!Mr-LEVY: No , I don't. @!Mr-NICE: He 's getting her sex toys . @!GIFFORD: Oh , boy . @!KOTB: All right . Here 's the question from Shereen . " How do I get my husband to willingly help out around the house and with our toddler ? " @!GIFFORD: Operative word , mm-hmm . @!KOTB: " If I ask , he does n't do it . If I wait , it never gets done . I wind up doing it all myself and quite frankly , I 'm tired . Help ! " @!Mr-YOUNGER: I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ get up one morning and go . Leave the baby , go . Say this is your child , you take care of him . You -- trust me , you 'll figure out a way to keep him alive until I get back home . @!GIFFORD: And keep it clean , yeah . @!Mr-NICE: I 'm going to say , he might be alive , but he might be laying in his own filth . @!Mr-YOUNGER: Oh , but no , see , what he needs is a day to realize just how hard it is to do what she does . @!KOTB: Hard she works , yeah . @!GIFFORD: If he 's a nasty selfish guy , he 's just going to resent that she got up and left , it 's not going to teach him anything . She married the wrong guy . @!Mr-NICE: Yeah . All right . But then maybe she needs to take the whole family and leave and never come back . I do n't know . But I 'm just saying . It 's like I 'm hoping -- I 'm @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ realizes what she goes through ... @!KOTB: Yeah . Yeah . @!Mr-NICE: ... that he will be willing to do something . @!GIFFORD: He might be -- yeah . @!Mr-LEVY: And men need a reward system . Whatever it is he likes , emphasize it . I do n't care if it 's doughnuts or affection , say I need you to take care of the baby . There 's a doughnut on the other end . @!GIFFORD: Oh , wow . @!Mr-NICE: Doughnuts of affection . Heart-shaped doughnuts , yeah . @!KOTB: Chuck Nice ... @!GIFFORD: That 's disturbing on a lot of levels . @!KOTB: Thank you , kids . @!GIFFORD: Love you guys , you guys are awesome . @!KOTB: Thank you . All right , coming ... @!GIFFORD: Immature , but awesome . @!KOTB: Coming up next , we 're going to have our latest inductee into the JOY FIT CLUB . He lost over 100 -- 340 pounds . @!GIFFORD: Oh my gosh . @!KOTB: Wow . @!GIFFORD: That might be the most ever . Wow . Is that true or is that a misprint @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @

@@4103441 @!MR-RICHARD-ENGEL: Thank you very much . Good to be here . @!MR-GREGORY: We ca n't wait to get your analysis . Thanks , Richard . @(Todd-touches-Engel @!MR-ENGEL: Hey , you wanted to touch me ? @!MR-CHUCK-TODD: Just want to make sure you 're here . @!MR-GREGORY: Yeah , he 's actually here . @!MR-TODD: I 've heard of you . @!MR-GREGORY: Editorial page editor for The Wall Street Journal , Paul Gigot is here ; presidential historian Doris Kearns Goodwin ; and last but not least , my hometown mayor -- and I just pronounced your name wrong , which is really embarrassing -- the mayor of Los Angeles . Antonio Villaraigosa , for his first appearance here on MEET THE PRESS . Villaraigosa was elected in May of 2005 after serving in the California State Assembly and at LA City Council . Now in his second term . He 'll be sworn in tomorrow as president of the U.S. Conference of Mayors in Baltimore . In that role he will represent an organization of more than 1200 mayors and speak out on policy issues impacting cities across the country , and , indeed , some of the big @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!MR-GREGORY: Welcome to everybody . Let 's talk politics . Let 's talk about the race for 2012 and the Republican field . Here is our , our board of who 's in right now . And a couple of notes you pay attention to there . Jon Huntsman is going to announce on Tuesday . And , of course , Michele Bachmann , who had a strong debate , has filed papers this past week to get into the race . She 'll be doing more of that this coming week . And this is how the field now looks , if you look at our latest NBC News / Wall Street Journal polling . Mitt Romney still on top , Sarah Palin , Herman Cain at 12 percent . And , excuse me , let 's just go back to that previous board if we can do it . I glossed over and I should n't have , because you 've got those who are undeclared or undecided . Palin is the perpetual one that we speculate about ; Giuliani ; Rick Perry creating a lot of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . And even John Bolton , who does n't think the Republicans are talking enough about foreign policy . You heard that debate just a moment ago with Lindsey Graham . So , Chuck Todd , there 's a lot on the table . Where are we at the end of this week on the Republican side ? @!MR-TODD: Well , first I 'm going to stick with the baseball theme , and that is the focus , I think , is on the player to be named later at this point . Because of the people running right now , Mitt Romney is not just a front-runner . I think he 's a very solid front-runner when you look at all of the things that matter to being a front-runner right now , all of the candidates chasing him seem to be stepping on themselves . Tim Pawlenty had a particularly bad week . Michele Bachmann does n't seem as if she can get the nomination . You can see how she can get very , very strong , and in the end , the Mitt Romney folks love @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ idea of the player to be named later , specifically Rick Perry , I think when you look at how this week played out , as good of a week as Mitt Romney had as being a front-runner , you 're seeing it in our own poll , you 're seeing it in other polls , Rick Perry had a pretty good week , too , because of two things . One , the Tim Pawlenty flubs. @!MR-GREGORY: Right . @!MR-TODD: And , and , two , the fact that there does seem to be this vacuum here of the anti-establishment wing of the party who 's not enthused about who 's all out there . @!MR-GREGORY: And we 'll come -- I want to unpack that Tim Pawlenty baggage in just a little bit . But , Paul Gigot , let me ask you this , Rick Perry , the buzz about Rick Perry , he spoke this weekend at a gathering of , of Republicans down in New Orleans . Here 's a portion of what he said . @(Videotape) @!GOV-RICK-PERRY: Let 's speak with pride about our @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to elect more conservative Republicans . Let 's stop this American downward spiral . @(End-videotape) @!MR-GREGORY: Here 's a , here 's a Republican saying , " Let 's talk about social issues . Let 's talk about moral values . " He sees that there 's a space here for a social conservative candidate in the race . @!MR-PAUL-GIGOT: But his trump issue will be jobs . @!MR-GREGORY: Right . @!MR-GIGOT: I mean , there 's a , the Dallas Fed has recently had a , Federal Reserve recently had a study showing that Texas has created 40 percent , nearly 40 percent of all the new jobs since the recession ended . That 's going to be his big selling point if he gets in . Yes , he 's , he 's going to talk about the social issues , but there 's plenty of other candidates who are talking about that . I think if he gets in , he 'll say , " I 'm a governor . I 've been in for a decade . I 've accomplished a lot . The Texas economy @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . So what 's going to happen is he 's , that 's the theme he 's going to make . The question I have for Perry is , is the country , and particularly those Northern suburbs , ready for another Texan after eight years of , of George ... @!MR-GREGORY: It 's interesting ... @!MR-GIGOT: ... George W. Bush ? @!MR-GREGORY: ... Doris , if you look at the debate this week , some of the big headlines , we 'll put them on the screen , showed a theme . Focus on Obama and the economy , targeting the president at the debate , target Obama , hits the president on the economy , and on and on it goes . This was , let 's not disagree with each other . Let 's focus on the president 's performance on the economy . @!MS-DORIS-KEARNS-GO: And in a certain sense , that 's what Pawlenty got lambasted for because he was suppose to have taken on Romney on Obamacare . You know , I think some of these things , when we say at the beginning , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ forget how early it is . I remember , this time in ' 07 , McCain was in the wilderness . His campaign was imploding . So we 've got a lot way to go . The problem with Pawlenty focusing on Obama and not focusing on Romney at that time was then you have to ask , if he could n't stand up to Romney , can he stand up to Obama ? And you 're looking for that forcefulness. @!MR-GREGORY: Well , then let 's talk about Pawlenty for just a second because in the debate he decides not to take him on on health care in Massachusetts , which he had done in an interview . Then he came on Fox News this week and said , " Hey , I made a mistake . " Even said -- he called Romney a co-conspirator with President Obama on health care . This is what he said to Fox News . @(Videotape) @!Mr-TIM-PAWLENTY: I should have been much more clear during the debate , Sean . I do n't think we can have a nominee that was involved @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ then continues to defend it . @(End-videotape) @!MR-GREGORY: May ... @!MS-GOODWIN: You see , I think , though ... @!MR-GREGORY: Yeah . @!MS-GOODWIN: I think the one thing Romney did well in that debate , he has an answer , finally , for the Obamacare thing by saying , " I did it in my state . There are problems in my state . He should have come and asked me what worked , what did n't work . " He was prepared for this in a way that he was n't prepared four years ago . It really helps to have run for the presidency once before . It 's a whole different planet . We were talking about planets before . @!MR-GREGORY: Yeah . @!MS-GOODWIN: And he 's learned ... @!MR-ENGEL: @(Unintelligible) ... too . @!MS-GOODWIN: Exactly . @!MR-ENGEL: We were listening to the clip that you played earlier by Mitt Romney and he , there was one thing that jumped out at me that implied a specific lack of preparation . @!MS-GOODWIN: Oh , yes . @!MR-ENGEL: He -- you played a clip earlier and he said @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ That 's a concept , I think , everyone would agree with . The problem is , the people are not called Afghanis . They 're called Afghans . So if you 're try , the Afghani is the currency . @!MR-GREGORY: Mm-hmm . @!MR-ENGEL: So if you 're trying to talk about what the foreign policy should be for a foreign nation ... @!MS-GOODWIN: He should learn the words . @!MR-ENGEL: ... where we have troops ... @!MR-GIGOT: He should at least ... @!MR-ENGEL: ... you should know what the people are called . @!MR-GREGORY: And I want to come back on this foreign policy points , but I want to hear from the mayor , as well . What is your take ? I mean , here you are in a big Democratic state , in , in a city that is dealing all the major issues , from the economy to education reform . How do you see the way the debate is shaping up on the Republican side ? @!MAYOR-VILLARAIGOSA: Well , I think the term was used now twice , it feels like these people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is America 's out of work , too many people have n't been able to get back into the workplace . We 're not doing enough to train those new workers . We 're cutting infrastructure and transportation . In America 's cities , we 're , we 're saying that America needs to focus at home again . And , and this issue of the war in Afghanistan , Libya , Iraq is now an issue that 's front and center of debate in our cities . @!MR-GREGORY: Well , and you even talked about this in the gathering of mayors . We 'll put it on the screen . The New York Times reported on a resolution that you 're talking about : " Mayors See End of Wars as a Fix for Struggling Cities . When downturn-weary mayors from around the country gathered ... Friday for the annual meeting of the United States Conference of Mayors ... they introduced a resolution calling for the speedy end of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan , and calling on Congress to use $126 billion a year the wars cost @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ here . @!MAYOR-VILLARAIGOSA: Absolutely . You know , you have Democrats who do n't want to address entitlements and Medicare and Social Security . You have Republicans who say that defense spending is off the table . So what 's left ? It 's infrastructure , it 's transportation , it 's education , it 's public health , it 's eviscerating Medicaid and the safety net . And , you know , we actually have to represent these people . We do n't live in the bubble of the Beltway . And I think for many of us , although we 're about 80 percent Democrat , we 're also very practical . And so the issue of pension reform is an issue that almost all of us have embraced . The issue of education reform , seniority and tenure , we 're tackling these tough issues . And so we find , and I find , that the debate right now among the Republicans is so out of touch with everyday people who live on Main Street . @!MR-GREGORY: Well , let me get an aspect of that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the world is watching this campaign develop and this internal fight on the Republican side about Afghanistan , about the future of America -- America 's involvement in the rest of the world , whether it 's Libya or Afghanistan . There 's real war weariness here . @!MR-ENGEL: There , there certainly is . And I think that 's understandable . I mean , 10 years the U.S. has been engaged in two major land wars in Afghanistan and Iraq . But I think this debate about Libya , for example , I just came from Libya before I came here , and the fact of the matter is the war in Libya right now is not very serious , that NATO is not doing a terribly good job . The rebels need a lot more help . The bombing campaign in Tripoli barely exists . Every once in a while there 's a few bombs on mostly empty compounds , and people go about their lives more or less unaffected . It 's not the kind of thing that 's going to drive Khaddafy from power . And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ trying to lead this , this fight , which -- and are , and are struggling to do it , are looking at this debate in -- within the -- in the United States to end the U.S. support for NATO . If the U.S. ended its support for NATO in Libya , NATO really is dead . And all of these European allies , particularly Italy , who supported the United States in Iraq , which they , they had no interest in , would say , " Well , why is n't the United States supporting us now in Libya ? " ... @!MR-GREGORY: Right . @!MR-ENGEL: ... which is an important mission for Europe . @!MR-GREGORY: Paul , how do you see this debate within the Republican Party ? I mean , Lindsey Graham could n't have been stronger , saying ... @!MR-GIGOT: It 's ... @!MR-GREGORY: ... " Look , you 're going to start taking the president on the left on foreign policy ? That 's not going to go well in the Republican Party . " @!MR-GIGOT: There 's war weariness , and it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ regret to say this , there 's some real political opportunism here . I mean , you have a Democrat in the White House . @!MR-GREGORY: Yeah . @!MR-GIGOT: This is not what Republicans would be saying -- most of them , nearly all of them -- if George W. Bush were still in the White House . So the question , I think , that -- fair to ask of a Michele Bachmann , who voted for the Dennis Kucinich resolution to cut off funds within 15 days for Libya , is if you 're , you 're , you 're running to be commander in chief , all right , do you really want as a candidate to invite Congress to micromanage and be able to cut off your use of force if you become president ? That 's not a very thoughtful position . Yes , it is what Barack Obama did when he was a candidate , but now you can see it 's hurting him as he 's president . So I think there 's some real contradictions here on the -- from some of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the McCain-Lindsey Graham wing ... @!MR-GREGORY: Right . @!MR-GIGOT: ... and some of the more grassroots , and I would even say somewhat isolationist , elements of the Republican Party . @!MR-GREGORY: It 's interesting , Doris , though , on this question of leadership around the world , Robert Gates , he 's the departing secretary of Defense , he 's been giving interviews , and he gave one to Newsweek . And he 's been quite outspoken about his views , whether it 's about the wars or about how Congress is behaving . We 'll put a portion of it up on the screen , the interview that he gave , and it 's quite interesting . He said , " I 've spent my entire adult life with the United States as a superpower , and one that had no compunction about spending what it took to sustain that position . ... It did n't have to look over its shoulder because our economy was so strong . This is a different time . " He says , " To tell you the truth , that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I think it 's time " to retire , because frankly I ca n't imagine being part of a nation , part of a government ... that 's being forced to dramatically scale back our engagement with the rest of the world . ... Congress is all over the place ... and the Republicans are a perfect example . ... I think there is no consensus on a role on the world . " That 's a very interesting statement . @!MS-GOODWIN: Well , and it comes with such credibility because he 's conducted himself so incredibly well during his tenure as secretary . I mean , I think we are confused right now . I mean , I think the problem with Libya right now is we should be debating exactly what Richard said , what should we be doing there substantively ? Instead , we 're debating president vs . Congress . @!MR-ENGEL: Who gets to call the shots . @!MS-GOODWIN: And who ... @!MR-GREGORY: Right , the fight behind the fight . Right . @!MS-GOODWIN: And , and it 's always going to be a dispute . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . The president 's the commander in chief , but Congress can declare war . So we 're going to have these fights forever . @!MR-ENGEL: I think you 're going to see more of them going forward because small wars , after this last decade ... @!MS-GOODWIN: They become -- that 's right . @!MR-ENGEL: ... are going to become the future . @!MS-GOODWIN: The really interesting thing is James Baker wrote ... @!MR-ENGEL: Drone wars , little wars like Libya . @!MR-GREGORY: Right . @!MS-GOODWIN: James Baker wrote an editorial in The Washington Post because he was part of a commission that I was an historical adviser for , a war powers commission , arguing that the War Powers Act is unconstitutional , it needs to be repealed . What we need to replace it with is a war consultation act where , before you go to one of these things , you go to the Congress . You should go to the Congress . It helps you to communicate to the country . But if it 's something like bin Laden , you do n't because it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have to do it afterwards . @!MR-GREGORY: Well , part of it 's about , again , what are we doing ? What 's , what 's , what -- if the rebels take power , what does that look like ? And how long does Khaddafy stay ? @!MR-TODD: Well , look , a couple things . One is , is , the one thing , that every president believes the War Powers Act is unconstitutional . @!MS-GOODWIN: Right . @!MR-TODD: And if you notice in the very ways they word these legal memos -- Bob Bauer , the current White House counsel , very specific about saying certain things are consistent with the idea of the War Powers Act , you know , because they do n't -- most presidents do n't want to acknowledge that -- the ... @!MR-GREGORY: Mm-hmm . @!MR-TODD: But let 's also talk about why this is also a problem . The president has done poor personal politics on selling Libya , period . OK ? When you 've got Jim Webb out there , who would be a national security Democrat , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the mission . Dick Lugar , Republican , spend a little time with him , explain the mission . He 's not done the personal politics of this . Joe Biden usually -- it 's usually outsourced to Joe Biden , the way this White House works . He 's been in the middle of the debt negotiations and this whole debt commission . So I think , yes , you have Congress all over the place . Yes , there 's all these issues with , with the Republican Party inside Congress right now . And yes , I do think there 's some opportunism . But the president has n't made a good faith effort at just good , old-fashioned back-slapping politics . @!MR-GIGOT: And I would add , not only , not only within Congress , but to the American public . I mean , he does n't not want to talk about Afghanistan or Libya because I think they feel that the -- in the White House , he needs to focus only on domestic issues . There 's only downside on foreign policy . But @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , you have to make the sale . @!MR-GREGORY: All right , I 'm going to take a break here . Couple things I want to do when we come back : talk about the final act in this Weiner scandal , more about the economy and how that is going to shape the debate for the presidency , and more about the Republican approach to it all . More from our roundtable right after this . @(Announcements) @!MR-GREGORY: We 're back now with more from our roundtable . Doris , a big story still this week , Anthony Weiner . He did finally resign . One of the questions that comes up is why it is some politicians can have sex scandals that they can survive and yet he could n't . What happened here ? @!MS-GOODWIN: Well , I think a couple of things happened . One was the timing of it . For the Democrats , it was disastrous . They were just making a momentum on the fact that they had won the special election for yet another congressman who had to resign because of an @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ he distracted them from that news . So they were putting pressure on him . Secondly , he lied to his colleagues , to the country , to the press . And thirdly , I think the saturation of the media today is such that he must 've felt like a mountain was falling on him . The only way to relieve that pressure was to get out . @!MR-GREGORY: And , Chuck , he just did n't have the support . I mean , he , he called Nancy Pelosi and said look at my polling . It 's still holding up in my district . She said , take that as a sign that you can bow out gracefully here . @!MR-TODD: Well , no . What it -- it 's a message to some of these members of Congress saying it 's good to have friends . @!MR-GREGORY: Yeah . @!MR-TODD: And he found out he really did n't have any friends , and sort of the way he might butt into a press conference or do some things , clearly had irritated Nancy Pelosi over the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . What I just did n't understand is why he thought having yet another press conference , going in front of the cameras one more time was a good idea . It seemed it only fed the worst parts of this scandal . You 're right about the media saturation . And by the way , I do n't think in this environment , anybody -- I do n't think David Vitter would 've survived ... @!MS-GOODWIN: In this environment . @!MR-TODD: ... in this environment . @!MS-GOODWIN: What 's sad about it , though , is we waste so much time in our political arena . @!MR-ENGEL: I was shocked by how much time is wasted on this kind of stuff ... @!MS-GOODWIN: We took three weeks on Weiner. @!MR-ENGEL: ... when I got back . @!MS-GOODWIN: They spent them three weeks ... @!MR-ENGEL: Now I know why Osama bin Laden has his messages hand delivered . @!MR-GREGORY: Right . @!MS-GOODWIN: But I mean , three weeks on Weiner , three weeks on the birth certificate . We 've got serious problems , as you were saying . @!MAYOR-VILLARAIGOSA: @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!MAYOR-VILLARAIGOSA: Yeah . @!MR-GREGORY: Mayor , let me turn to that . On the , on the economy specifically because , again , front line mayor , dealing with these problems . Here 's the cover of Newsweek , and it 's former President Clinton who , lo and behold , has a few things to say about the economy , " 14 Ways to Save America 's Jobs . " And " It 's Still the Economy , Stupid , it says inside . Can you make a case for Democratic governance given the economic woes of this country that have persisted under President Obama ? @!MAYOR-VILLARAIGOSA: Without question . But let me say something about the three weeks of scandal that you referred to . For most of us watching that circus and , and the amount of time and air it had consumed , it -- again , feels like you 're on another planet . People are losing their homes due to foreclosure . People are out of a job in , in double digit numbers . According to our metro economies report , we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to be for another 10 years in some cities . And so , yes , I think you can make a case that , that with Republicans primarily threatening to default and what that would mean to the economy , what it would mean to , to an increase in unemployment , I think you could say that most of -- when , when Bush inherited a surplus and , over an eight-year period of time , took us to the highest deficits and debt in our history , you 've got to say call it like you see it . And the Republicans certainly have put us here . @!MR-GREGORY: But , Paul Gigot , you ca n't keep blaming Bush . I mean , there , there are just some stubborn figures . @!MR-GIGOT: The economy -- yeah , I do n't think it worked in 2010 very well . And I do n't think it 's going to work in 2012 . President Obama owns this economy . And , yes , he can go and try to , " I inherited a mess , " and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ -- Republicans would concede , " Yes , you did . " But the question is , did you make it better or did you make it worse ? And if not -- if unemployment a year from now is 9.1 percent or even 8.5 percent and the deficit is still a trillion dollars , and you do n't see -- and you see growth at 2 percent , the president 's going to have a very hard time winning re-election . @!MR-TODD: You know , David , the -- there , there 's something bigger that I 've found from our poll that I think we 're all missing here , which is you can see the collective frustration on the American public again at Washington . Congress hit its low that it has n't hit since March 2010 , the healthcare month . You have people saying they want government to " do more , " but at the same time , they have 60 percent of them say , " Will you please do something about this debt and deficit mess ? We get it on the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Obama had inherited this mess . They 're basically -- the message they 're sending us , " Just do something . " And the worst thing for both parties will be some sort of gridlock , and then look at other countries and how they 've handled that . Japan has gone through -- they go through a prime minister every six months because of a public frustration with the government 's inability to just solve problems . @!MR-GREGORY: And you know , Richard , from your vantage point , covering much of the world , the businessmen I talk to in this country who , of course , are traveling around the world say you go to a country like China , they 're not talking about America as much as they may be talking about certain European countries . That , that notion of American decline or a diminishing role in the world is something that is -- stems from an inability of our political system to meet the challenges we face . @!MR-ENGEL: The -- they talk about the United States in terms of its military @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ -- are n't rushing here to do business . It 's become difficult . I -- primarily coming from the Arab world , it 's thought of as an unfriendly place , it 's hard to get visas , you get hassled if you 're here . And they think of us in terms of our U.S. military , which is why -- as an organization that 's still works and is still an incredibly unique capability . Which is why I 'm finding that comment that you played earlier by Secretary Gates so incredibly chilling , that he 's basically saying , " Our economy is so bad right now that we are not in a position -- and our political leadership is so fractured -- that we 're not in a position to lead the world any longer and I do n't want to be part of that . " And that 's frightening . @!MR-GIGOT: Yeah . @!MR-GREGORY: Doris , we , we showed the pictures from Greece . We can show them again demonstrations in the streets as a result of draconian cuts being made by @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Senator Graham , are we being too aggressive about tackling deficits at a point when the economy still needs so much help ? @!MS-GOODWIN: Absolutely . I mean , it seems to me the rational answer right now , we 've got to get the economy to grow , and then get some problems which we agree on both sides that we will have targets for cutting the deficit . I mean , most economists would argue that . But somehow the deficit has become -- it 's the same way it became with Perot , it 's become that lady in the closet . We have to deal with it , we do have to deal with it . @!MR-GREGORY: Right . @!MS-GOODWIN: But you 've got to deal with the economy first , get it going , and then you make promises about getting that down . @!MR-GREGORY: But even -- I 've spoken to House Republican leaders who say , you know , this is -- even our zeal to cut the debt ... @!MS-GOODWIN: Mm-hmm . @!MR-GREGORY: ... is hurting our ability to have a jobs @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ positive ideas to say how do we get people back to work ? @!MR-GIGOT: Yeah . There 's a little bit of an accountant 's mentality that comes across , I think , and that 's a problem . But I -- I think , philosophically , from an economics policy point of view , you cut spending , you 're going to help the economy , in my view . Because every dollar the government spends is a dollar that 's taken out of the private sector , which is the only place , the only place you 're going to drive growth . But the problem for the Republicans is a little too much talk about budget balancing and not enough talk about growth and jobs and getting growth back up to 3 and 4 percent . @!MR-GREGORY: Who 's hiring ? Can I ... @!MAYOR-VILLARAIGOSA: Or investment in infrastructure . @!MR-GREGORY: Yeah . @!MAYOR-VILLARAIGOSA: Or investment in education or investment in workforce development . I mean , there is no conversation from that side of the aisle . And do n't get me wrong , I 'm @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was a good one . People are tired of the gridlock , the partisanship , the polarization , the shrill debate . I mean , we 're , we 're excited that the president and the speaker are on some , you know , golf tournament day . You know , the fact of the matter is , they should be talking on a regular basis , and they 're not talking . All they 're doing is screaming at one another . @!MR-GREGORY: Mm-hmm . @!MR-ENGEL: You talk about money the U.S. spent fighting this global war on terrorism . I think , which is a terrible misnomer , it 's like a war on fear or something like that . And I think in many ways it has been a war of fear . But the United States spent at least a trillion dollars on this for the last decade . And we 've become very good at killing bearded men in Waziristan . But there are trade-offs . We 've -- China owns a tremendous amount of our currency , and we 've focused on other -- @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . We 're going , we 're going to get a break in here . We 'll come back with our final segment , Trends & Takeaways , a look at what was said here today and what to look for in the coming week . Plus , what are the hot political stories trending this morning ? That 's coming up , right after this . @(Announcements) @!MR-GREGORY: We 're back . Final minutes with our roundtable here . And to review , Senator Lindsey Graham talking about what he sees as an isolationist streak within the Republican Party over foreign policy , particularly responding to the debate this week in New Hampshire , said earlier on this program this following : @(Videotape) @!SEN-GRAHAM: If you think the pathway to the GOP nomination in 2012 is to get to Barack Obama 's left on Libya , Afghanistan and Iraq , you 're going to meet a lot of headwinds . This is not a war of Afghan independence , from my point of view . This is the center of gravity against the war on terror . @(End-videotape) @!MR-GREGORY: @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Republican Party ? Does Graham win out or does the tea party , the focus on the debt and spending ultimately win the day , which means more war weariness ? @!MR-GIGOT: I think probably Graham wins out in the end , just because I think that the , the tradition , the modern tradition of the Republican Party tends to be a strong military party , and that tradition will be hard to , to beat . To really get an isolationist trend in the GOP , you 've got to go back to the ' 50s , before Eisenhower , or back to the , to the , to the , well , Woodrow Wilson . @!MR-GREGORY: Mm-hmm . @!MR-GIGOT: So I think that , I think in the end Graham will win out , particularly if the president starts to make the sale on , on Libya and Afghanistan . @!MR-GREGORY: Foreign policy is still on the top three on our political trend tracker . The top stories on the big political Web sites that we 'll put up on our screen , our political trend @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , at number one , getting buzz from this weekend 's gathering of Republicans , the Obama-Boehner golf summit . These are stories that are still gaining attention . Libya and the war powers debate losing a little bit of steam in terms of people focusing on it , but it 's still in that top three . Now , Chuck Todd , to you . As we look ahead on the political schedule , not just for this week , but really a summer of intense campaigning , what are you watching out for ? @!MR-TODD: There 's two dates that I 'm watching in particular , and number one is July 15th . That is the FEC fundraising deadline . We 're going to find out , rubber hits the road on money . How much did Mitt Romney raise ? You know , you had somebody hinting from his team that they think he can get to $40 million to $50 million , a very Bush-like number when Bush was running in ' 99 . What 's Tim Pawlenty 's number ? Does Michele Bachmann outraise him @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Perry . If Romney has this insurmountable financial lead ... @!MR-GREGORY: Right . @!MR-TODD: ... Perry may bow out on this . @!MR-GREGORY: All right . And go through some of the other days , quickly . @!MR-TODD: And then I would say here August 6th is Rick Perry 's National Day of Prayer that he 's hosting . @!MR-GREGORY: Mm-hmm . @!MR-TODD: Reliant Stadium , home of the Houston , Texas , in Houston . That 's going to tell us a lot . He 's not going to announce before that date . I 've been told by advisers he does n't want to politicize that thing , but it 's going to tell you , this is a guy that can speak to the tea party wing , the social conservative wing ... @!MR-GREGORY: Mm-hmm . @!MR-TODD: ... talk jobs , as Paul mentioned . He can put together two legs of that stool . And then finally , I think the , the Iowa Straw Poll . It 's going to tell us whether the Tim Pawlenty campaign is for real or not . @!MR-GREGORY: All @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ something on Twitter today from President Obama , and specifically from his campaign for next year . On their campaign logo they 've made it clear , as we 've seen today , from Barack Obama it says , " Welcome to a new @BarackObama. ... staff will manage this account ; tweets from president will actually be signed ' -BO . ' " So you know they 're actually coming from him . So ... @!MS-GOODWIN: That 's the modern world . @!MR-GREGORY: The modern world . Everybody these days ... @!MR-TODD: But he has n't tweeted yet though , right ? Even he himself had to have been , " What 's Twitter ? " @!MS-GOODWIN: I would think that after ... @!MR-GREGORY: All right . @!MR-TODD: He did n't quite know how to do it . @!MR-GREGORY: All right . We 're going to leave it there . '

@@4103541 @!GOV-CHRIS-CHRISTIE: Happy to be back , David . @!MR-GREGORY: Here , a top supporter of Governor Romney . Let me pick up on the news here . The governor made a decision to release his tax records . Should he go back further than that ? Will he go back further than that ? @!GOV-CHRISTIE: Now listen , I think what people want to see is get a look into how Governor Romney has made his money , how much he 's made and look at his tax returns . I think that 's perfectly appropriate and I think you 'll get a good view of that both in the most -- two most recent years , in 2010 and 2011 . And I think he 's done a good job by making the decision this morning to put them out and I 'm happy he 's doing it . @!MR-GREGORY: He waited . It made for a pretty bad week . You had advised him earlier in the week to do it sooner . I want to show something from the debate this week when he sort of justified why it was he did n't want to release @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ last April . @!GOV-CHRISTIE: Sure . @!MR-GREGORY: This is what he said . @(Videotape-Thursda @!FMR-GOV-MITT-ROMNE: I want to make sure that I beat President Obama and every time we release things drip by drip , the Democrats go out with another array of attacks . @(End-videotape) @!MR-GREGORY: Is there something in the tax returns that will hurt Governor Romney ? @!GOV-CHRISTIE: I do n't believe so , no . And I think , listen , at the end of the day , you know , David , even in a , even in a standard tax return , adversaries like the Obama White House will try to pick it apart and make something bad about the success that Governor Romney 's had in his life . So I 'm sure that 's what he was concerned about . But listen , I made my position really clear both publicly and to Governor Romney that I think he should release the returns . He 's releasing them . And so , you know , now it 's time to move on . I think what the American people are going to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ life and I do n't think the American people want a failure as president . I think they like somebody who 's succeeded in whatever they 've tried to do . And I think that 's what you 're going to see with Governor Romney. @!MR-GREGORY: What is the meaning of last night ? @!GOV-CHRISTIE: Listen , it 's clearly disappointing . I -- you know , I 'm not going to say that last night was somehow good news for the Romney campaign . Listen , we had a bad week as a campaign and a bad result last night . So , you pick yourself up , you dust yourself off and you get to Florida and you fight . And I still believe that Governor Romney 's going to win in Florida on the 31st and that he 's going to return to Florida in August as the Republican nominee . @!MR-GREGORY: There 's a couple of big issues connecting to conservatives in the party , the grass roots of the party , and what Speaker Gingrich says , which is this anger in the party . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Winfrey on her program as a liability for Governor Romney and have you talk about it a little bit more . @(Videotape-last-Su @!GOV-CHRISTIE: I have a real sense that Governor Romney has a real depth of knowledge and experience and understanding about government and business , but he does n't really communicate it all that well . I think people have a hard time connecting at times wit him . And so his challenge is going to be how to connect with people , how to make them feel what I do believe he feels inside . @!MS-OPRAH-WINFREY: Mm-hmm . @!GOV-CHRISTIE: Which is he wants to do great things for the country . @(End-videotape) @!MR-GREGORY: What do you attribute that lack of connection to ? @!GOV-CHRISTIE: Listen , he 's a very reserved guy . And I think everybody comes with a different personality . I 'm obviously not reserved , he 's very reserved . Everyone can have success in politics with different personalities and every candidate , David , has liabilities . I mean , you know , the fact of the matter is the president 's liability @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ three years that he 's not going to be able to defend or run on , so he 's going to have to attack Mitt Romney . The speaker , and I heard his comments just now , a strategic adviser , that is the oldest Washington dodge in the book . That 's because he did n't want to register as a lobbyist . @!MR-GREGORY: You 're talking about when he worked for Freddie Mac . @!GOV-CHRISTIE: Of course . He got paid $1.6 million . First , he said he was a historian , now he 's a strategic adviser . I mean , let 's be serious . It 's the oldest dodge in the book . He was using his influence that he obtained in public office to try to help them . That 's why they paid him $1.6 million . He can call it whatever he wants to call it , but that 's what it is . So every candidate will have liabilities . And what I was saying to Oprah in that interview was it 's the challenge for Governor Romney . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And I believe Mitt Romney will meet that challenge and he will connect . @!MR-GREGORY: So you come back , though , to connection with conservatives . What , in your judgment , is Mitt Romney 's greatest contribution to the conservative cause ? @!GOV-CHRISTIE: Well , listen , this is a guy who has shown that the American free enterprise system can work and can work to create jobs across America . You look at places like Staples and Sports Authority , everybody who goes to work at those places today has Mitt Romney to thank for it . And he 's going to know how to do that as president , to get government out of the way , to be able to let the private sector create those jobs that we so desperately need and have n't had in the Obama administration . That 's his greatest contribution to the conservative movement , to show that the American free enterprise system , which is under attack by the Obama administration , does work for people -- for real people , middle class people . Because let me @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Authority and Staples today , David , those are n't the elite . Those are middle class Americans who are using those jobs to put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads and send their kids to college . Let the president attack that . @!MR-GREGORY: When , when I moderated the debate in , in New Hampshire , I asked the candidates on the stage why should n't Mitt Romney be the nominee ? What 's disqualifying about his record ? So now I ask you as a member of the establishment , right ... @!GOV-CHRISTIE: Uh-huh . @!MR-GREGORY: ... why should n't Newt Gingrich be the nominee of this party ? What 's disqualifying about his record ? @!GOV-CHRISTIE: Well , listen , the fact of the matter is from my perspective , not as a member of the establishment , David , but as a governor , I know that we do n't need another legislator in the Oval Office . We 've had one for the last three years who does n't have the first idea of how to use executive authority @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the worst years of Congress in my lifetime because this president refuses to get in the room , roll up his sleeves and get the hard work done . We do n't need another legislator in the Oval Office who does not know how to use executive authority . We need an executive , someone who both in private sector and as a governor understands how to bring people together and use executive power . The speaker simple does n't have that experience . @!MR-GREGORY: You 've been more pointed , though . @!GOV-CHRISTIE: He 's never run anything . @!MR-GREGORY: You 've been more pointed when you talk about in favor of Governor Romney . You say he will never embarrass you . Do you think Newt Gingrich will embarrass the party ? @!GOV-CHRISTIE: I think Newt Gingrich has embarrassed the party over time . Whether he 'll do it again in the future , I do n't know . But Governor Romney never has . @!MR-GREGORY: You say he 's embarrassed the party . How and where do you worry he might do it again that makes him @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ all know the record . I mean , he was run out of the speakership by his own party . He was fined $300,000 for ethics violations . This is a guy who 's had a very difficult political career at times and has been an embarrassment for the party . You remember these times , you were here . So the fact of the matter is , I do n't need to regale the country with that entire list again except to say this . I 'm not saying he will do it again in the future , but sometimes past is prologue . @!MR-GREGORY: Well , so , is this an issue that Governor Romney now makes more strongly ? Is character an issue in this campaign ? @!GOV-CHRISTIE: I 'm not talking about character . I 'm talking about how you conducted yourself in office and what that record indicates . I 'm not talking about the speaker 's character . I take him at his word that he 's a changed person . And I 'm not attacking him on that , on that basic . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ run anything , and never having run anything , I do n't think on the job training should be the presidency of the United States . I 've great respect for what he 's done for our party . He 's done some great things for our party over the years , and for our country . But the fact of the matter is , I do n't believe his record stacks up to Governor Romney 's record in that regard . @!MR-GREGORY: What about this electability question ? I mean , you heard what , what , what I challenged Speaker Gingrich with , which is there is this view in the party that if Gingrich keeps on going and if he consolidates support among conservatives , this is the best news for President Obama possible . Is that your view ? @!GOV-CHRISTIE: Well , my view is the worst news possible for President Obama is a Romney candidacy because Governor Romney will show with the executive experience he has , with the record he created in Massachusetts , and with the values he 's articulating , has been @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , the best contrast we can have to President Obama . So I think Governor Romney would be the worst news for the Obama White House . @!MR-GREGORY: But do you think that a candidate , a nominee Gingrich could also beat President Obama ? @!GOV-CHRISTIE: Listen , could he ? Sure . @!MR-GREGORY: You do n't sound as convincing , though . Certainly not about Romney , whom you support . But ... @!GOV-CHRISTIE: What , I answered , I answered your question . @!MR-GREGORY: But you think he could ? @!GOV-CHRISTIE: Sure . @!MR-GREGORY: I want to ask you something that I do n't think has come up in this race so far , and that is whether you would consider being on the Romney ticket as , as a VP . You 've answered this a bunch of different times , but I want to ask it a slightly different way . You , you have said that you did n't feel that you were ready to be president right now . @!GOV-CHRISTIE: Right . @!MR-GREGORY: Would you be ready to be vice president ? Would you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ going to accept a slot on the ticket ? @!GOV-CHRISTIE: Sure . Hey , listen , everybody 's misunderstood what I meant about saying being ready for president . I meant that , you know , being ready to leave the job that I had and being ready to run for president of the United States with all that entails . I did n't want to do , did n't feel ready to do it , and I think you have to be absolutely committed and ready to do that . Now as for the vice presidency , let me say again , I want to be governor of New Jersey . I ran to be governor of New Jersey . I absolutely believe that come November 2012 I 'm going to be governor of New Jersey and not in any other office . The fact of the matter is , if Governor Romney , who 's going to be our nominee , picked up the phone and called me to talk about this , I love my country enough and I love my party enough to listen , but @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ betting guy -- and I know you are , I know you are , David . If you 're a betting guy , you should bet Chris Christie being the governor of New Jersey in November 2012. @!MR-GREGORY: But you said once , who would want me as a number two ? @!GOV-CHRISTIE: Well , I still feel that way . @!MR-GREGORY: But you 'd be a good vice president , would n't you ? @!GOV-CHRISTIE: Oh , listen , I think that certain personalities ... @!MR-GREGORY: Not to appeal to your ego or anything . @!GOV-CHRISTIE: No , listen ... @!MR-GREGORY: I 'm saying you 'd be wonderful , would n't you ? @!GOV-CHRISTIE: Listen , I think certain personalities are suited for jobs better than others . And I do n't know that I 'm the guy to stand behind , three feet behind somebody and nod my head . It 's not necessarily in my character . But again , you know , you have to balance that against your love for your country and your love for your party and all the rest of those things @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ who gets to decide that question . That 's the nominee of our party . And if I 'm -- if I 'm approached I will listen . But my inclination , to make it very clear , is I want to stay governor of the state of New Jersey . But I think it 's wrong to foreclose that and to foreclose the nominee of our party from coming and talking to you about it because they may have a whole different view than I do and maybe they can convince me of something different . @!MR-GREGORY: I want to ask you about the State of the Union and also about New Jersey . First , on the State of the Union , what do you think the president could say that would surprise Republicans and galvanize Republicans to try to work with him on something substantial , even though it 's an election year ? @!GOV-CHRISTIE: He could finally embrace Simpson-Bowles . He asked for it , he put it on the shelf for purely political reasons , he showed political cowardice by doing it , and an @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . And I think if he came out on Tuesday and said , " You know what , I was wrong to put Simpson-Bowles on the shelf . I should take it off the shelf , I 'm going to send it to the Congress and I want to have a vigorous debate and discussion about really tackling debt and deficit in our country in an honest and forthright way , the way Senator Simpson and Mr. Bowles suggested . " It 's not that I agree with every part of Simpson-Bowles , David , but it is a realistic plan that merits consideration and discussion . He never did it . That would surprise the nation if he did it , and I think it would show great leadership if the president was willing to do it . @!MR-GREGORY: Where have Republicans been culpable for the paralysis in Washington ? You 've spoke about the president . What about ... @!GOV-CHRISTIE: I 've spoken about both , David . @!MR-GREGORY: ... what , what role do Republicans play ? @!GOV-CHRISTIE: Listen , you know , and I 've said @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ people are spending too much time talking at each other and not talking with each other . Look at New Jersey . Now in New Jersey I have a Democratic legislature . They say some of the most unspeakable things about me publicly . On the other hand , though , I do not take that personally . I still bring them in the room . We sit down , we talk and we resolve things because we 're put in these jobs to accomplish things , not just to posture and pose . And so my point to Republicans has been to you 've got to force those conversations . Now if the president 's not interested in having them , and if he 's not interested in developing those relationships , then there 's little the Republicans can do . But to the extent that we 've contributed to not having those relationships happen , then there 's a culpability there . @!MR-GREGORY: You talked about the State of the State and how you see New , New Jersey in the future . One of the things we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , the , the federal state tunnel project which you were opposed to , you said , " Look , we 're broke in New Jersey . " And now you 're calling for a 10 percent cut in income tax , would cost the state $300 million a year over three years . Why can you afford that ? @!GOV-CHRISTIE: Well , because first of all the tunnel project was going to cost us an additional 8 billion , so we still do n't have that money to do it . It was a bad plan . And what we see is happening now is the federal government , New York , New Jersey , are working together to come up with another plan that will be more equitably shared by all the parties , not 75 percent of , 70 percent of the cost being on New Jersey . But the reason we need to cut taxes is think about what I inherited , David . I came in . We had $13 billion in deficits . We had had 115 tax and fee increases in the eight @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 50th tax climate in the country and the worst business environment in America . In two years , we 've balanced those budgets and brought ourselves to balance without any tax increases through very difficult , aggressive cuts . And now what I 'm saying is it 's time for the people to get some of their money back . Done reasonably , 10 percent cut phased in over three years , so you could do it reasonably and not bust the budget . Think about this , David , in New Jersey , the people of New Jersey are going to know for the next three years every year their taxes are going to go down . If I had told you that when I came here the first time , you would have told me I was nuts . But we did it because of hard work and sticking to our principles and working together with Democrats . I think we 're going to be able to do it again . @!MR-GREGORY: Do the New Jersey Giants win today ? @!GOV-CHRISTIE: Yes . You bet they do . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ think that they should be the New Jersey Giants . @!GOV-CHRISTIE: Of course they are . Listen , David , the only thing New York about the Giants in the NY in their helmet . They train in New Jersey , they play in New Jersey , and most of their players live in New Jersey . And so the New Jersey Giants are going to have a great game today . Sorry to my friends in San Francisco . It 's going to be a big win for the Giants today and on to the Super Bowl in New , in Indianapolis . @!MR-GREGORY: All right . Well , I 'll be watching for sure . I can tell you that . @!GOV-CHRISTIE: I 've got a bet on it , do n't you , David ? @!MR-GREGORY: Governor , thanks very much . @!GOV-CHRISTIE: Come on , tell me the truth . @!MR-GREGORY: Coming up , the 2012 Republican race for the White House is recast and all eyes now on Florida . Full analysis on the meaning of last night and what to look for in the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ MSNBC 's Joe Scarborough . We 've also got Republican strategist Mike Murphy . Also joining the roundtable , the BBC 's Katty Kay and NBC 's Chuck Todd . It 's coming up . Do n't go away . @(Announcements) @!MR-GREGORY: Coming up , a special Decision 2012 political roundtable . Full analysis on the meaning of South Carolina . Joining me MSNBC 's Joe Scarborough , Mike Murphy , the BBC 's Katty Kay and our own Chuck Todd . Coming up right after this brief commercial break . @(Announcements) '

@@4103641 @!GIFFORD , co-host : Very ... @!HODA-KOTB-co-host: The day after Mardi Gras. @!GIFFORD: And the beginning of Lent ... @!KOTB: Yes . @!GIFFORD: ... very special day for many people in the Christian faith . @!KOTB: Mm-hmm . @!GIFFORD: But it also -- and only in America could this happen -- it 's Ash Wednesday but it 's also ... @!KOTB and @!GIFFORD: ( In unison ) ... National Margarita Day . @!KOTB: All right . So our Dr. Mixologist. @!Mr-DARRYL-ROBINSON: Doctor in the house . @!KOTB: Dr. Mixologist ... @!GIFFORD: Thank you , Darryl Robinson . @!KOTB: ... has brought some margaritas. @!Mr-ROBINSON: I have . @!KOTB: What makes these unique , Darryl ? @!Mr-ROBINSON: This is a pomegranate margarita made with a nice reposado tequila revolution . @!KOTB: Uh-huh . @!Mr-ROBINSON: So ... @!GIFFORD: So pomegranate means it 's also good for your sex life . @!Mr-ROBINSON: You know what , we do n't really want to say that , but I 'll let you say that . @!KOTB: Mm. @!GIFFORD: That 's what -- that 's what I 've heard . @!KOTB: By the way , he 's the host of the drink -- there 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Drink Up " on the Cooking Channel . @!KOTB: On the Cooking Channel . @!Mr-ROBINSON: Yes . @!KOTB: Thank ... @!GIFFORD: Which some people have suggested should be the title of our show . @!KOTB: That 's terrible . @!GIFFORD: But listen , I did not know this , the original margarita was invented in 1948 ... @!KOTB: Wow . @!GIFFORD: ... in Acapulco by a socialite . I bet she was a lot of fun . @!KOTB: And her name was ? @!GIFFORD: Margarita Sames , right ? @!KOTB: Uh-huh . @!Mr-ROBINSON: And the original margarita was really simple , just lime juice , agave and tequila . Not all this crazy sour and soda that you see in a lot of ... @!KOTB: Just like that . @!Mr-ROBINSON: ... three simple ingredients . @!GIFFORD: And it 's probably still -- is that what we 're having now , this is -- except the pomegranate . @!Mr-ROBINSON: You 're having agave , pomegranate ... @!KOTB: I like it . @!Mr-ROBINSON: ... salt on one side so you can watch your little lipstick . @!GIFFORD: Yeah . @!KOTB: Does n't @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , you know , Darryl ? @!Mr-ROBINSON: Because it 's ... @!GIFFORD: People are getting weird . @!Mr-ROBINSON: Look at the color shirt , it 's National Margarita Day ! @!GIFFORD: I know , but it gets your tongue green ... @!KOTB: Gets on your tongue and all that . @!GIFFORD: ... and makes your teeth green . @!Mr-ROBINSON: But that 's why I left one side unsalted. @!KOTB: Thank you , good doctor . @!GIFFORD: Well , that 's lovely of you . And we want to wish you all the best . @!KOTB: Happy margarita day . Thank you for coming . @!Mr-ROBINSON: Happy National Margarita Day . @!KOTB: Thanks for coming to see us , honey . @!Mr-ROBINSON: Thank you for having me . Cool . @!KOTB: All right . @!GIFFORD: Thank you . @!Mr-ROBINSON: All right , ladies . Cool . Bye-bye . @!GIFFORD: Thanks , Darryl. @!KOTB: All right . So yesterday , the president of the United States sang again . And this was one of those -- if you guys saw it , this is one of those full-court press kind of things @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!GIFFORD: It was blues night at the -- at the White House . @!KOTB: At the White House . @!GIFFORD: Right . @!KOTB: Mick Jagger . And anyway , they ... @!GIFFORD: Celebrating Black History Month , I suspect . @!KOTB: Sure . And they were singing , and you 'll see , they were sort of egging him on , they said to the president , ' You know , look , you did it for Al Green , you know . ' @!GIFFORD: Well , he let the ... @!KOTB: Yeah . @!GIFFORD: ... genie out of the bag when he showed how well he can sing . I 'm anxious to see this . @!KOTB: Well , let 's watch this . @(Clip-of-President- @!KOTB: Ah ! @!GIFFORD: He 's really got it ! @!KOTB: He 's got ... @!GIFFORD: He 'll have a new career after the White House , I think . @!KOTB: That 's ... @!GIFFORD: You know . I do n't think B.B. King 's going to let him open for him , though . That would n't happen . @!KOTB: Ah , that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ got some pipes . @!GIFFORD: You know what we did n't realize yesterday , Hoda ? @!KOTB: What ? @!GIFFORD: We want to apologize to anybody that we offended , we certainly did n't mean to . When we were talking about people that still have their lights up and their Christmas trees and all of that , we heard from quite a few people who said , ' You know what , we do that in -- out of love and respect and in longing for our loved ones overseas who are serving in the armed forces . We had absolutely no idea . @!KOTB: We did n't know that . And that 's ... @!GIFFORD: But they keep the lights shining for them , and I think that 's awesome . @!KOTB: I thought that was terrific . Yeah , a lot of people responded on our Facebook page that that 's why they leave their lights on . Others ... @!GIFFORD: Well , knowing that , I might turn mine back on . @!KOTB: Yes . @!GIFFORD: Yeah . Thanks , everybody , for letting us know @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ All right . So , you know , everyone , if you did n't already fall in love with Adele , you probably fell in love with Adele at the Grammys . She won all the awards , she swept , she 's so humble and she 's great . @!GIFFORD: Yeah , yeah . @!KOTB: Anyway . So there 's sort of , I guess , the British equivalent of the Grammys in Britain and she was getting her award last -- I think it was last night . And she was giving her acceptance speech and it was weird because in the middle of her speech she got cut off , and then she decided to give a ... @!GIFFORD: Let them know how she felt about getting cut off . @!KOTB: Yeah , let the crowd know . Let 's listen . @!ADELE: ( From awards show ) Then coming home with six Grammys and then coming to the Brits and winning Album of the Year . I 'm so , so proud to be British and to be flying our flag and I 'm so proud @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!GIFFORD: Wait a minute . @!KOTB: So at that point -- at that point ... @!GIFFORD: This guy game up and ... @!KOTB: ... this guy comes up and he says to her , ' I 'm terribly sorry , but I 'm going to have to cut you off . And what you see , kind of fuzzy in the corner , is her giving -- letting everyone know who 's number one . Anyway . @!GIFFORD: Yeah . Well , she did n't do it to her fans , she says . @!KOTB: No . No . No , no , no. @!GIFFORD: It was like , ' Oh , really ? Really ? You know , then this is ... @!KOTB: She said it was for the suits . @!GIFFORD: The suits . @!KOTB: The suits who cut her off . @!GIFFORD: Apparently somebody ahead of her , and this is why you should n't do this , had taken way too long and had not left enough time for her , which was the final one of the evening . @!KOTB: Yeah . Yeah . @!GIFFORD: @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it 's still unfortunate . @!KOTB: All right . So ... @!GIFFORD: You know what else is unfortunate ? @!KOTB: Oh , no , no . All right . Sheyla Hershey. @!GIFFORD: Or -- I think it 's Sheyla. @!KOTB: Sheyla . Sheyla Hershey. @!GIFFORD: Yeah . @!KOTB: Anyway . We 've shown you pictures of her before . This is one from her Facebook page . Anyhoo . She ... @!GIFFORD: I bet she 's fun at cocktail parties . @!KOTB: According to the -- to the headline , she does hold the Guinness Book of World Records for the biggest breasts . She 's got 38 KKKs . And she actually wants to go to M 's , because I guess that 's next . @!GIFFORD: Well , it took her 13 years and 22 surgeries to get there . I -- why do n't they just do it all in one fell swoop ? I do n't understand . Maybe your skin ca n't stretch that much initially , it has to -- you know ? @!KOTB: Gradual . @!GIFFORD: Yeah . @!KOTB: Anyway . @!GIFFORD: I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ She 's on a -- she 's on one of those TLC reality shows , it 's called " My Strange Addictions . " And she says that she has more surgeries to increase her breasts to an M. But she had a staph infection and she had to go back to the K 's and not the M 's . Anyway , it 's very complicated . @!GIFFORD: Here 's the sad part of it , you know what , she 's obviously screaming for attention . You know , that 'll get them , that 'll get you some attention . @!KOTB: Yeah . Right . @!GIFFORD: But the sad part is that now she can no longer tie her own shoes , we understand , she -- Hoda , it 's not funny , it 's tragic . It 's -- stop it . And this is the worst one , she ca n't even hug her daughter . The arms just do n't go that -- they ca n't make room for another human being in there . So , you know -- I mean I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's -- she 's addicted , definitely , to it . @!KOTB: Yeah , that 's an -- that 's an addiction . @!GIFFORD: But there is , you know ... @!KOTB: Look -- yeah . @!GIFFORD: ... this is a person if you take those breasts away from her does n't feel like she has any value ... @!KOTB: Yeah . @!GIFFORD: ... at all . And it 's a terrible role model for young girls . @!KOTB: I ca n't look at it . I 'm sorry . Anyway . I ca n't -- I know , I feel bad , I really do . @!GIFFORD: No , you don't. @!KOTB: I got -- I know it . @!GIFFORD: No , and nobody believes you . @!KOTB: I do n't know what to say about it . Anyhoo . OK , so here 's the thing , a lot of people do want cosmetic surgery and they want plastic surgery . @!GIFFORD: Yes . They want -- they want a face-lift. @!KOTB: They want a face-lift . So they ... @!GIFFORD: And believe me , everybody that 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ starlets that are gorgeous , they go , ' I 'm never going to do anything . ' @!KOTB: Never . @!GIFFORD: The first -- agh ! @!KOTB: They freak . @!GIFFORD: They run to the Botox . Right . @!KOTB: All right . So there 's a new study out that says if you do plastic surgery , a face-lift ... @!GIFFORD: Right . @!KOTB: ... if you do the full-on face-lift , if you 're wondering how many years that would take off your life -- let 's say you did it when you were 55 ... @!GIFFORD: Right . @!KOTB: ... OK , or 60 ... @!GIFFORD: Which is when I should have . Right . @!KOTB: ... or 65 , they say it cuts off 7.2 years off of your looks . So if you think you 're going to look 10 years younger , 15 years younger , you 're really only going to look like you did seven years before , so . @!GIFFORD: Which I guess for some people is worth the price and worth the pain ... @!KOTB: Sure . @!GIFFORD: ... @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a lot of people go in thinking , ' I 'm going to look 20 again . ' @!KOTB: Yeah . @!GIFFORD: And the trouble is once you start there , then you got to -- you ca n't even go and take the hair out of your face without going -- giving yourself away because your hands do n't look eight years younger or 20 years younger . @!KOTB: Yeah . Yes . Yes . @!GIFFORD: So you got to do all of yourself . @!KOTB: Yeah , you do . @!GIFFORD: And then you spend most of your life recuperating from a surgery . @!KOTB: You know what ... @!GIFFORD: And nobody knows you anymore and it 's bizarre . @!KOTB: Yeah . A friend of mine said before you go in for plastic surgery , if you want plastic surgery or a lift or something ... @!GIFFORD: And not -- and we 're not putting down who wants it . Go ahead . @!KOTB: No , no , no . But before you do it , they said , if you can , take a week , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ rest . Rest , sleep , go on a teeny vacation and come back . If you still -- because often you get ... @!GIFFORD: If you still -- yeah . @!KOTB: ... one when you feel wiped out ... @!GIFFORD: Yeah . @!KOTB: ... you 're exhausted , you feel run down ... @!GIFFORD: Right . @!KOTB: ... and you go , ' Oh , I need to do this now . When you 're on your best day ... @!GIFFORD: Yeah . @!KOTB: ... to see if you really feel like you need it . @!GIFFORD: Or , I 'm telling you , you -- these fillers these days are so good you can -- you can look 10 years younger ... @!KOTB: The fillers . Yeah . @!GIFFORD: ... just with fillers if they 're done properly . Just do n't get 20 years worth at the same time . @!KOTB: And it 's hard to get lips at all because if you do anything to your lips , it 's so noticeable , do n't you think ? @!GIFFORD: Yes . I know . @!KOTB: That @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ know , I know , I know . Go to somebody who really knows -- find somebody , a friend , who looks fantastic ... @!KOTB: Mm-hmm . @!GIFFORD: ... and ask her , or him ... @!KOTB: Mm-hmm . @!GIFFORD: ... who did it and go to that person who 's reputable . @!KOTB: OK. @!GIFFORD: Not everybody can go to my precious ... @!KOTB: Right . Dr. Wexler. @!GIFFORD: ... Dr. Wexler. @!KOTB: All right . I 'm not going to like ... @!GIFFORD: I 'm sorry , she 's just not available for everyone . She 's very busy .... ( mouths the words " with me " ) . @!KOTB: No , I 'm not going to like -- with you ? @!GIFFORD: The other week . @!KOTB: You 've done something ? How weird . I do n't like this story , so you 're going to have to do it . I mean , I know I 'm not going to like it . I do n't even know what it is and I do n't like it at all . @!GIFFORD: Apparently neither @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Michelle Davenport Burdick saw this ad and posted it in -- on our wall saying she thought of Hoda and how much she loves our show . @!KOTB: That is ... @!GIFFORD: Oh , before and after . @!KOTB: What is it , before and after what ? Is that a shampoo ? @!GIFFORD: Oh , hair ! The -- oh ... @!KOTB: Oh , it 's a relaxer. @!GIFFORD: ... the little lioness had her hair done . I ca n't imagine why she thinks that . That 's sweet , though , Hoda. @!KOTB: We also want to thank one of our fan of the weeks . You know , sometimes we send our fans to great exotic locations ... @!GIFFORD: Almost every time . @!KOTB: Yeah , so ... @!GIFFORD: Yes . There was just that one unfortunate trip we do n't want to talk about . @!KOTB: Yeah . A wonderful guy named John Coon posted this thank you picture . He said he had a lot of fun at ... @!GIFFORD: At Abaco , right , Abaco Beach Resort . @!KOTB: ... Abaco . Oh @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sand . @!GIFFORD: Oh , that -- you know what , that is so sweet . It was our pleasure . @!KOTB: Anyway . That 's in the Bahamas . So he had some fun there . @!GIFFORD: Good . @!KOTB: Excellent . All right . So we are doing an ' 80s show on Friday . OK , so do you remember what you looked like in the ' 80s ? Take a picture , send -- I mean get one of the pictures and send them to us on our website because we want pictures of you with that ' 80s hair , the shoulder pads , remember ? @!GIFFORD: You know what was weird when we were talking about doing this show , I could n't remember the ' 80s . And I -- it was n't for the reasons you might thing . I was so busy . @!KOTB: Yeah . @!GIFFORD: I had just moved from California to New York , I was working on another show . @!KOTB: Yeah . @!GIFFORD: And then Regis and I met Frank and all the -- those years @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ -- and I could n't remember what ... @!KOTB: The ' 80s at all . @!GIFFORD: No . I would -- I would mention a song and I would n't know what decade it came from . @!KOTB: Yep . Yeah . Yep . @!GIFFORD: You know , or a movie . I said , ' Well , I love that movie , they go , ' Well , that was in the ' 60s . I go , ' Really ? I mean , you know ... @!KOTB: The ' 80s was kind of a weird decade , it was the -- yeah -- Madonna , Michael Jackson , it was that kind of musical ... @!GIFFORD: OK . So we 're going to go down Memory Lane on ... @!KOTB: Yes , we are . @!GIFFORD: This is Friday , right ? Right . @!KOTB: This is on Friday . We 're also going to do an ambush makeover . If you feel like you 're stuck in the ' 80s , you 're going to get made over . And I do n't know what else we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be fun . @!GIFFORD: There 's going to be some surprises , so it should be fun . So send those to klgandhoda.com. @!KOTB: Do . All right , we got a big show . Sara 's got a new batch of photos that 'll make you say what the what ? @!GIFFORD: What ? And next up ... @!KOTB: Oh , no. @!GIFFORD: ... always love him . William Shatner is here . @!KOTB: Oh . @!GIFFORD: Be afraid , be very afraid . He 's going to let us into his wacky wonderful world , and that 's right after this . Give us a smile . '

@@4103741 @!LAUER , co-host : We 're back now at 8:14 with the return of AMC 's hit drama " Mad Men . " After being off the air for 17 months , it 's coming back on Sunday with a two-hour premiere . This morning for the very first time on TV we have the cast with us to talk to them and we 're going to do that in a moment . But first , a look at the show that 's made America nostalgic all over again . It 's a mad , mad world about so much more than advertising . @(Clip-from- " Mad-Men @!LAUER: " Mad Men " provides a window into America in the ' 60s. @!Ms-JANICE-MIN: The setting makes it glamorous . It 's about advertising in Manhattan . You see a lot of social themes playing out there that engage the audience . You see themes about sexism in the workplace , racism . You see themes about modernization . @!LAUER: " Mad Men " centers around a New York ad agency run by creative director Don Draper . It 's a role that made actor Jon Hamm a household name . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the funny lines . @(Clip-from- " Mad-Men @!LAUER: Pete Campbell , the young and ambitious executive with big plans . Lane Pryce , who handles the firm 's finances and not well , and so he relies on the agency 's secret weapon , sultry , sexy Joan , the office manager who actually runs the place . Peggy Olson has emerged as the show 's feminist icon , the female copywriter in a man 's world . And there 's Betty , Don Draper 's unhappy wife , who became his ex-wife but stayed unhappy . She 's at home with three kids . Now 17 months later , " Mad Men " is back . So will the fans be back , too ? I 'm glad you -- I 'm glad you thought that was funny , January . That 's good . We 're joined now by Jon Hamm , John Slattery , January Jones , creator Matthew Weiner , Vincent Kartheiser , Jared Harris and Kiernan Shipka . Good morning . Good to see you . Miss KIERNAN SHIPKA : Good morning . @!LAUER: Where @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ here ? @!Mr-JON-HAMM: We were hiding . We decided to take some time off and solve some issues but now we 're back and we 're very excited about it . @!LAUER: How bad were the issues . Be honest , all right . How close did this show come to going down the tubes ? @!Mr-HAMM: Well , several of us had gender reassignment surgery so had to all have that settled . @!Mr-JOHN-SLATTERY-@: We feel great though . @!Mr-MATTHEW-WEINER-: We were not out of work as long as -- we have not been away from the show as long as the public has . There was a decision made by the network in 2010 that the show would be on in 2012. @!LAUER: Right . @!Mr-WEINER: And so we went back to -- I went back to work in May and they came back in August . So it was really just three or four months longer than normal . @!LAUER: Have you been hearing it from fans who have been saying , what 's going on here and when are you guys coming back ? @!Mr-SLATTERY: Yeah @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's an unfortunately long hiatus but I think now you can -- you know , you can DVR shows , you can -- you can -- you can actually find the show in ways you could n't before . So I mean , we 're actually hoping that , you know , it whetted people 's appetites even more . @!Ms-JANUARY-JONES-@: It gave people a chance to catch up . @!Mr-SLATTERY: Yeah . @!LAUER: Obviously we have to remember that although the show 's been on the air for a long time , there are people , believe it or not , who do n't know about " Mad Men " and have n't watched it . So who wants to take a shot at completing the sentence , OK . " Mad Men " is really a show about ... @!Mr-HAMM: Kiernan , go ! Miss SHIPKA : Don Draper 's life . @!LAUER: Yeah ? OK. @!Mr-HAMM: See , she 's always dependable. @!LAUER: How about completing this sentence . It has connected with audiences because ... Miss SHIPKA : Drinking . @!LAUER: Drinking and smoking . @!Mr-WEINER: @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ because the show has very sort of realistic -- the characters have realistic problems . There 's not a lot of explosions . There 's not a lot of like car chases and things like that . But the problems that they have are very closely related to what people live with . @!LAUER: It 's about the dialogue when it comes right down to it . It 's brilliantly written and it 's about this ... @!Mr-WEINER: That 's what I was going to say . @!LAUER: Yeah . I took the words right out of your mouth . It 's also -- we -- it 's uncomfortable . We sit there and there are times when you 're made uncomfortable watching this show because of the things you 're doing that are inappropriate and it 's weird that you 're all so good at them . @!Mr-HAMM: Well , I think it 's also , it 's set , you know , far enough in the past that it does feel different and yet it 's not too far in the past to where it feels old-timey or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ -- people can get a sense of feeling a part away from that , you know , so they can have a vicarious thrill of that behavior and that acting out and yet still identify with it . @!Mr-WEINER: It 's also not judgmental . I mean there 's something about it that sort of embraces on some level that we are flawed people and there 's not really this -- it is a moral universe , you know , it 's not like it 's immoral but people behave badly . It 's why the Ten Commandments are there . You know what I mean ? It 's like , these are the things that we do and the show sort of treats them in a way that 's very realistic . And you watch the show and you can feel superior to the characters on some level but you also recognize a lot of the bad behavior . You know , it 's mothering and being a child and being a bad husband , all those things . @!LAUER: Well , you bring up mothering . Just to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ been off the air , January , you actually had a baby during the hiatus . That child is now in college , I believe . Zander is what , six months old now ? @!Ms-JONES: Yeah , yeah . @!LAUER: Yeah ? How are you doing ? @!Ms-JONES: I 'm doing really well . He 's awesome . @!LAUER: Is it true -- and I read this and sometimes you ca n't believe everything you read -- that some fans of the show take it so seriously . You 're not a good mom on the show . @!Ms-JONES: Well , yeah . @!Mr-WEINER: That 's not true . @!LAUER: Oh , come on . You 're not a great mom . @!Ms-JONES: She 's not a great mom . @!Mr-WEINER: She 's a typical mom . @!LAUER: I 'm going to go with your side of this . @!Ms-JONES: I do n't write the show . @!LAUER: And have you had fans who have actually kind of worried about what kind of a mom you 're going to be ? @!Ms-JONES: Yeah , I think so . I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do n't know -- I can only surprise people with my mothering that 's -- I do n't know , how can I say this politely ? @!Mr-HAMM: I do n't know . @!LAUER: Do you ever want to say to the fans , it 's just a show . @!Mr-HAMM: We 're on the same show . @!LAUER: It 's -- no , it 's just a show . I would n't say -- I ca n't say I 'm a good mother , but ... @!Mr-WEINER: Even Betty Draper -- even Betty Draper likes babies . I mean , that 's not going to be the problem . @!Mr-HAMM: Well , and January and I were on the same flight out here , too with Zander and he was incredibly well-behaved the entire flight . So I have to say that . @!LAUER: Who 's the practical joker on the cast ? John ? @!Mr-WEINER: John , yeah . @!Mr-SLATTERY: Am I the practical joker ? No. @!Mr-WEINER: And Vinny. @!LAUER: Vin. @!Mr-VINCENT-KARTHEI: No , it 's one of these two guys . @!Mr-SLATTERY: There are n't that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ photographic evidence of some of your practical jokes . @!LAUER: We 've had some of those graphics we 'd like to bring up . I have a feeling we ca n't put those up there , right ? @!Mr-KARTHEISER: No , probably not . @!LAUER: Kiernan , what 's it like for you ? How old are you ? Miss SHIPKA : Twelve . @!LAUER: You 're 12 years old and your on this show with all these adults , though there 's some other kids as well , and you 're dealing with very adult themes . Do you ever think , ' I could be on Nickelodeon or ' I could be on Disney doing something ? ' Miss SHIPKA : I do but I 'm really happy where I am right now . It 's a great show to be on and I 'm so thankful for it . @!Mr-WEINER: You would n't get to drink and smoke as much on Nickelodeon. @!Mr-HAMM: Less so . @!Mr-WEINER: Less . @!LAUER: Jon , you made some headlines recently . OK . You were talking -- you were doing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ said this , quote , " Whether it 's Paris Hilton or Kim Kardashian or whoever , stupidity is certainly celebrated . Being a blanking idiot is a valuable commodity in this culture because you 're rewarded significantly . " Now Kim Kardashian had some comments about that and said your remarks were careless . Do you want to explain ? Do you want to expand ? Do you want to do anything ? @!Mr-HAMM: No , I do n't think they were careless . I think they were accurate . But it 's a part of our culture that I certainly do n't identify with and I do n't really understand the appeal of it other than , you know , sort of car crash sensibility and it 's not something that I partake in or enjoy . But it is what it is and here we are , so . @!LAUER: Anybody else want to jump into the pool ? The water 's beautiful . @!Mr-HAMM: You 'll enjoy it . @!Mr-KARTHEISER: I agree . @!LAUER: You agree ? Go ahead . @!Mr-KARTHEISER: I agree , yes . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ eloquently. @!LAUER: That was -- you just supporting your friend here or do you agree to the whole concept ? @!Mr-KARTHEISER: No , I agree with everything he said . I mean , I think our society enjoys to turn on the television and see someone who 's maybe awful and they can say , ' Well , at least I 'm not as terrible as that person . ' @!LAUER: Is there room for both things though ? I mean , you have a wonderfully written , beautifully acted show here and it 's a great luxury and it 's a nice position to be in . But do you understand that there is an audience for all things out there ? @!Mr-HAMM: There 's a lot of channels on the dial and those channels need to be filled up with things . And listen , it 's a different strokes for different folks , I suppose . @!LAUER: Matthew , have you started to think about how this show comes to an end ? Is this seventh season going to be the last season ? @!Mr-WEINER: This is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . I meant to say fifth . @!Mr-WEINER: And yeah , we 're talking about doing seven seasons . @!LAUER: You 're going to do seven ? @!Mr-WEINER: That 's the plan for right now . I do n't want ... @!LAUER: Have you started to think about how you 're going to kill -- I mean , how you 're going to -- how you 're going to end all these story lines ? @!Mr-WEINER: You know what ? People keep asking me that so I better get on it . No , I have like a -- I have a vague idea of what it is . I think it 's interesting that people keep asking about it . And for me , it 's -- no -- you know , what I mean ? About how is it going to -- or do I know . Because they really , when we get to the end of the show , they 're going to have to take my word for it . I could say , ' Oh , yeah , I thought of that you know @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ For me it 's like I think that they want the tension alleviated , that there is a plan or something , but for me I really do n't even want to think about it ending yet , you know . @!LAUER: So it 's not like some fiery crash , you know , all on the same plane type thing . I 'm looking in your eyes , I 'm starting to think maybe . @!Mr-WEINER: No , no , no . We ca n't afford that . @!LAUER: Do you have an idea of how you -- that 's too big of a budget to sustain that ? @!Mr-WEINER: Yeah , we do n't do that . There 'll be a -- there will be the reflection of a fiery crash in a window . @!LAUER: Have you guys thought about what it would be like to put this behind you ? I mean , you almost had to think about that over the last 17 months . @!Mr-SLATTERY: I just like to be vertical . I just like to be in the end , you know ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to make it to the final episode ? @!Mr-SLATTERY: I 've had some scrapes and I do n't think -- I mean , I think I can probably safely speak for all of us and we all feel very lucky to have this job and I think it occurred to us early on that this is n't like a lot of television experiences and we 're lucky to have it . And it is n't going to go on forever , but we 're enjoying it while we 're here . @!LAUER: Based on the number of people in the studio this morning , a lot of people are happy you are back . Congratulations on season five -- sorry about that . And you can catch the two-hour premiere this Sunday night on AMC . Just ahead , Charlize Theron and Kristen Stewart after your local news . '

@@4103841 @!JIM-AXELROD-CBS-N: Tonight , escape in China . A blind dissident under house arrest eludes his guards and reportedly heads into the U.S. embassy . Celia Hatton reports from Beijing . Manhunt , police corner an armed survivalist . Terrell Brown follows the trail to his bunker . Jobs for Americans . Dean Reynolds visits with workers who settle for lower wages instead of none at all . And spy story -- does this re-enactment solve the case of the dead British spy ? Charlie D'Agata with the bizarre details . Good evening . I 'm Jim Axelrod . We begin tonight with reports of a blind Chinese dissident make a 300-mile journey from house arrest to the gates of the U.S. embassy in Beijing . His as-yet-unconfirmed presence at the embassy would likely complicate U.S. relations with China just as Secretary of State Clinton is set to travel there . Celia Hatton is in Beijing . @!CELIA-HATTON-CBS-: The U.S. embassy in Beijing could be protecting this man , Chen Guangchang , one of China 's most famous human rights activists . Chen fled house arrest last week . Neither the U.S. nor the Chinese government will confirm he is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Chen is a self-taught defense lawyer . He was imprisoned after exposing a program forcing women to undergo abortions to conform to China 's one-child policy . But Chen 's real nightmare started after his release from prison . To keep him silent , authorities kept the outspoken lawyer under house arrest , along with his wife and six-year-old daughter . Security forces barred visitors and subjected Chen and his wife to regular beatings . After plotting for months , Chen made his great escape last Sunday . Under the cover of darkness , the blind 40-year-old lawyer waited until the guards were changing shifts . He then scaled a high wall and made his way to meet an accomplice . From the village in Shandong , a network activist helped him elude police 300 miles to Beijing . Now he 's trying to save his family . Yesterday , Chen released an internet video detailing the abuse they 've suffered at the hands of plains clothes police pleading to China 's premier to make it stop . In one instance , more than a dozen men broke into my @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ smothered her with a blanket , and brutally hit her with fists and feet for several hours , he says . They beat me , too . Chen said he does not want to leave China . U.S. and Chinese officials are believed to be negotiating the terms of his safe release , a decision that could affect the country 's fragile relationship . @!KENNETH-G-LIEBERTH: It is better for Mr. Chen is the U.S. takes a very , very low public profile on this and works quietly behind the scenes to get him out of China and to get his family out of China . @!HATTON: Well before the daring escape , the Obama administration had been focused on Chen Guangchang 's case . Secretary of State Hillary Clinton mentioned him in a speech on Chinese human rights last November . @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!HATTON: Secretary Clinton begins talks here in five days , so this development may well headline her visit -- Jim . @!AXELROD: Celia Hatton in Beijing for us . Thank you . So what does this mean for U.S.-China relations ? We 're joined by former undersecretary of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ no shortage of topics for Secretary Clinton to take up with Chinese leaders when she travels there . How likely is this to elevate human rights on the agenda ? @!PROFESSOR-NICHOLAS: Jim , I think human rights will be on the top of the agenda given the story unfolding about Chen Guangchang . There were lot of issues to discuss , of course , Iran and North Korea and Syria and the global economy , but this is a dramatic story . If in fact this young man is in American custody , it will dominate the meeting . And the Chinese and American governments will have to try to work out a resolution of this very important matter . @!AXELROD: I guess the question then becomes how does Secretary Clinton raise the issue ? Is it done forcefully and publicly , or is it done behind the scenes ? @!BURNS: Well , you see today , Jim , that the two governments are not even acknowledging that he is in custody , and they 're not saying much . That means that they 're probably talking about it in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a disagreement , but I think this disagreement can only work out in one way . This young man needs to have freedom , either in China or the United States or elsewhere in the world . I believe the administration will stand up for him , safeguard his rights . And if he is in the American embassy , that 's considered American territory , and I think he 'll stay there as long as he needs to , to secure his freedom . @!AXELROD: Nicholas Burns , former undersecretary of state , thanks for joining us. @!BURNS: Thank you . @!AXELROD: A week-long manhunt is over in Washington State . Today , Peter Keller , a heavily armed survivalist , suspected of killing his wife and daughter apparently took his own life after authorities tracked him to an elaborate homemade bunker . More now from Terrell Brown . @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @!TERRELL-BROWN-CBS: Last Sunday , firefighters responded to a house fire . Inside were the bodies of Peter Keller 's wife and daughter , both allegedly shot in the head by Keller as they slept . After the murders , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and handguns made his way into an elaborate 20-foot- long , multilevel doomsday bunker eight years in the making . King County Sheriff Steve Strachan said the search for Keller left tactical teams dehydrated and exhausted . @!STEVE-STRACHAN-SH: The terrain and elevation to where this was located is really extraordinary . @!BROWN: Detectives , working from a picture taken in 2004 from a hard drive in Keller 's home , were able to narrow their search for the bunker . With no nearby roads , a police helicopter airlifted chainsaws and supplies to break into the bunker yesterday . Tear gas rendered no response . But this morning , when police blew the roof off of Keller 's bunker , they found his body . @!STRACHAN: They believe the person has been dead for some time . There 's a great deal of blood and a pistol nearby . And they do believe that this is Peter Keller . @!BROWN: Court documents say Keller turned off his cell phone and withdrew $6,200 from his bank account . A witness tells police Keller was preparing for the end of the world @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!AXELROD: Now to the economy and Detroit where roughly 2,000 people showed up at a job fair at the headquarters of " Quicken Loans . " The online mortgage lender is looking to add 1,000 new positions , saying the market has , quote , " really turned . " Even some jobs moved overseas are now heading home , but as Dean Reynolds reports , they come with a high cost . @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @!DEAN-REYNOLDS-CBS: With the assembly line humming at GE 's massive appliance park in Louisville , Kentucky these days , it 's hard to imagine that the place was once headed for closure . @!DIRK-BOWMAN-PLANT: The water heat cert first new product in this place for 50 years . @!REYNOLDS: GE had shipped much of its appliance production overseas , relying on cheap labor to bring down costs . China was a lucrative source , but now , in the aftermath of the great recession , the American worker is more willing to accept lower wages to get a job . @(on-camera) : I 'm guessing you did n't have , like , a whole array @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE: Well , I put in the applications , but , no , not really . @!REYNOLDS: New hires here in Louisville are making 38 percent below what they would have made , say , seven years ago , $13 an hour instead of $21 . The company calls it a competitive wage scale . The union calls it a necessity . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE: I felt like I 'd done my membership justice by helping bringing jobs back here . @!REYNOLDS: Jerry Carney is head of the local union . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE: This country is in a reset . I have to get the jobs back in here , make appliance parts profitable and then get the higher wages back in here and try to fight to get them there . @!REYNOLDS: All of this comes as higher wages in China are making offshoring less attractive . Hal Sergan is managing director for the Boston Consulting Group , which studies American manufacturing . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE: Wages are rising somewhere between 15 percent to 20 percent a year in China and over time that will make China far more expensive . @!REYNOLDS: G.E . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is transforming the American assembly line by cutting out waste . @!BOWMAN: In China , they might have 15 hours of labor , we do it for three . So we 're extremely productive . @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL: If we can get these jobs back here in the states , you know , I 'm willing to do whatever it takes . @!REYNOLDS: GE says it will bring 11 new products to the U.S. and create 1,300 jobs by 2013 . It 's the first trickle of what some economists believe could form a new wave of work returning to these shores . Dean Reynolds , CBS News , Louisville. @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!AXELROD: The Detroit Tigers said today outfielder Delman Young wo n't play again until undergoing an alcohol and anger management evaluation . Young was arrested Friday in New York on a hate crime harassment charge . Police say he yelled anti-Semitic slurs after getting into a fight outside the team 's hotel . Drug abuse is now the number one cause of accidental death , according to the federal government . Today , across the country , officials took steps to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ New Jersey , the pill bottles were dropped off by the dozen . Responding to the call from the drug enforcement administration , people dumped their unused prescriptions at 5,000 locations around the country . @!GIL-KERLIKOWSKE-D: One of the things that we 've seen is that the people that misuse and abuse these prescription drugs . The first time that they do , they get it from a family or friend . That means it 's coming right out of somebody 's medicine cabinet . @!AXELROD: More Americans die from drug-induced deaths than any other accidental cause or injury , 39,000 in 2009 , more than from car crashes , or from gunshots . Abby Boxman lives with the tragedy of prescription drug abuse every day . Her middle son , Justin , became addicted to the opiod pain reliever OxyContin during his freshman year in college . Once an outgoing athlete , he became withdrawn . @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL: When I looked into his eyes , there was just an emptiness there . It was n't him . It was -- he totally changed . @!AXELROD: Justin hacked his mother 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Eventually , he turned to heroin , which was cheaper than the pills . Nine months ago , he overdosed and died . @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL: He all these dreams , all these expectations of what he wanted out of life . He just wanted to get himself better . @!AXELROD: Abby started a chapter of grass , grief recovery after a substance passing and sees disposing of unused prescriptions as one step toward preventing a repeat of what happened to Justin . @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL: I truly believe in my heart that if he never tried a pill , those pills that he would still be here today . I really do . @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!AXELROD: The federal government says prescription drug abuse is responsible for 15,000 deaths a year . That 's more than the number of deaths caused by cocaine and heroin abuse combined . Still to come , the spy who died in a bag in his own bath tub . Can the government subpoena your tweets ? And a new low point in relations between the U.S. and Pakistan . Those stories when the CBS EVENING NEWS continues . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ leader Osama Bin Laden at his hideout in Pakistan , U.S.-Pakistan relations are cratering . Whit Johnson is watching developments from Washington tonight . Whit , good evening . @!WHIT-JOHNSON-CBS-: Jim , good evening to you . The latest high-level talks to repair that battered relationship between the U.S. and Pakistan failed after two days , putting more strain on the Afghan war effort . @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE: Pakistan has a very important role to play in bringing peace to Afghanistan . @!JOHNSON-@1voice-ov: U.S. special envoy to Afghanistan and Pakistan , Mark Grossman , left Islamabad with no agreement to reopen crucial cross-border supply routes . The routes have been closed since last November , when NATO airstrikes killed 24 Pakistani soldiers at a remote outpost . Pakistan has demanded a formal apology . The Obama administration has refused . Angered by militant groups operating from Pakistan , launching repeated attacks in Afghanistan , like those on April 15 in Kabul and NATO targets in three provinces . State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland. @!VICTORIA-NULAND-S: This is the beginning of the reengagement conversation . We 're going to have to work through @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!JOHNSON: If there has been progress it 's been in America 's war on al Qaeda , nearly a year after the killing of Osama Bin Laden . Senior counter- terrorism officials tell CBS News the number of al Qaeda fighters in the Afghanistan-Pakistan region and in Iraq is in the low hundreds . But activity has picked up in Yemen , home to al Qaeda and the Arabian Peninsula , which may number several thousand . With the anniversary of the Bin Laden 's death on Tuesday , Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta is making no apologies . @!LEON-PANETTA-SECR: The one thing all of us feel pretty good about that were involved in this operation is that as a result of what we did , America is safer . @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!JOHNSON: And with that anniversary approaching , counter-terrorism officials say that they are monitoring jihadist web sites for talk of possible attacks . So far , the White House says , there are no signs that any are in the works -- Jim . @!AXELROD: Whit Johnson at the White House , thank you . The crackdown continued @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sweeping into the city of Douma , just two days after the arrival of U.N . observers . The Assad regime is condemning U.N . Secretary-General Banki Moon for saying the government is to blame for repeated ceasefire violations . They are symbols of Iraq 's insecurity and division , but today Iraqi 's security forces began demolishing concrete blast walls in Baghdad . They were first put up after the 2003 invasion and multiplied at the height of the country 's sectarian violence . Still ahead , he helped occupy the Brooklyn bridge . Now the D.A . has subpoenaed his tweets . That story is next . @!AXELROD: A powerful spring storm with strong winds swept across the St. Louis area late this afternoon . The storm knocked down a party tent at a downtown bar , killing one person and injuring as many as 100 others . Five people are reported in critical condition . Facebook and Twitter are now essential tools for protest movements like " Occupy Wall Street . " Nine in 10 law enforcement agencies say they monitor social media . And Tony Guida @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ cases against demonstrators . @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE: If you refuse to leave you will be placed under arrest . @!TONY-GUIDA-CBS-NE: When occupy wall street occupied the Brooklyn bridge last October , police arrested 732 protesters , virtually all charged with disorderly conduct , neither a crime nor a misdemeanor , but a violation like loitering. @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE: There 's a whole lot of fuss over a politicized traffic ticket . @!GUIDA: The 23-year-old Malcolm Harris was among those arrested , but one of a handful whose Twitter account was subpoenaed . The DA maintains that Harris ' public tweets proved his intent to defy police orders to disperse . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE: It 's a fishing expedition , and they 're going fishing for whatever information they can dredge up , whatever will make this harder on the people who are going out there protesting . @!GUIDA: Harris ' lawyer , Martin Stolar , says the subpoena of tweets in a case that is not even a crime is much ado about nothing . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE: We 're sitting here with a subpoena smashing a nut with a sledge hammer , and it 's absurd @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ agreement that it is authorized to make your tweets available to the rest of the world . He ruled that the tweets the defendant posted were not his , and , therefore , he has no standing to challenge their subpoena . Harris plans to keep up his fight . @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!GUIDA: Twitter remains a major organizational tool for the " Occupy Wall Street " movement . Its power figures to be on display again next Tuesday when a huge mayday rally is planned for this park . Tony Guida , CBS News , New York . @!AXELROD: There 's been a surge in children detained crossing on their own from Mexico into the U.S. , and that 's straining the system to care for them . This week , authorities in Texas used empty barracks at Lack Land Air Force Base to house dozens of kids . The number of undocumented minors landing in U.S. custody is up 93 percent in the Past six months . Still ahead , death in a duffel bag . The mysterious case of the deceased British spy . That story is next . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the greatest of spy writers . How did a British intelligence agent ends up dead in a zipped up duffle bag in his very own bath tub ? Charlie D'Agata tells us investigators are now trying to solve this riddle. @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @!CHARLIE-D'AGATA-C: Here is what you 're looking at , a re-enactment . This man is trying to stuff himself into a gym bag in a bath tub to determine if a British spy found naked and dead in one had padlocked himself in . The idea that Gareth Williams stuffed himself into a bag and died of suffocation is just the beginning of a real-life spy mystery that gets more bizarre by the day . Back in august 2010 , the 31-year-old fitness fanatic and rising star failed to show at work at the British spy agency MI6 . Strangely , his colleagues did n't report him missing for a full we week . Family members insist he was assassinated at his London apartment because of his undercover counter-terrorism work . MI6 officials said some of that included close contact with American agencies and visits to the U.S. But @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ result of a sex act gone wrong . He was a bachelor with no close personal relationships , yet , an orange wig and $30,000 of women 's designer shoes and clothes were found in his apartment . Experts said Harry Houdini would have struggled to climb in the gym bag and padlock it shut . But if he did n't stuff himself in , who did , and did he suffocate inside the bag or was he killed and then stuffed in the bag ? The inquest is scheduled to wrap up this week but with no suspects , no witnesses , no motive , and so few clues , it has raised more questions than it has answered . Charlie D'Agata , CBS News , London . @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!AXELROD: And that is the CBS EVENING NEWS . Later on CBS , did a motivational speaker conspire in his own murder ? That 's tonight 's " 48 Hours Mystery " at 10 p.m. , 9:00 Central . For everyone here at CBS News , I 'm Jim Axelrod in New York . Good night .

@@4103941 @!KOTB , co-host : So this ... @!KATHIE-LEE-GIFFORD: We just ca n't stay out of trouble . @!KOTB: We ca n't . All right . So you guys remember the song " Call Me Maybe " and we had our own sort of dance version to it with the -- with the legs stuck up in the air . @!GIFFORD: Who could forget ? @!KOTB: Let 's just watch that and relive the Spanx moment again for a second . @(Clip-from-previous @!KOTB: It 's not easy . OK , that was n't easy . @!GIFFORD: It still cracks me up . @!KOTB: Stop it ! @!GIFFORD: You 're ... @!KOTB: If you have long heavy legs , it 's hard for them not to do that . @!GIFFORD: They 're not heavy , they 're just wobbly . @!KOTB: OK . So last night , as you guys know , Jay Leno decided to have a little fun with that exact same song , so here is -- here 's Leno 's version . @(Clip-from- " The-Ton @!KOTB: Genius . @!GIFFORD: As if they do n't have anything else to do , you know what I mean ? @!KOTB: @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ So . @!KOTB: Front page of the papers today , you guys . @!GIFFORD: Yes . @!KOTB: Some funny headlines . This one says " Rack and Run . " @!GIFFORD: " Rack and Ruin . " @!KOTB: " Rack and Ruin . " Exactly what I said , please pay attention . All right . So this young lady is working at a lingerie store and she claims that the owners , the managers and stuff , said that she was way too voluptuous and sexy to be working dressed as she was in her store . @!GIFFORD: Provocatively , because I guess they are of an orthodox faith or something like that . @!KOTB: Yeah , it 's an orthodox employers , right . So she took exception to that . And they told her apparently to put on a big red bathrobe and walk around , and she did n't like that . So she , in this paper , one of the papers , she took a picture of herself in a red bathrobe. @!GIFFORD: And is she suing them for dismissal ? @!KOTB: She 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ... @!KOTB: Oh , it 's a discrimination lawsuit . @!GIFFORD: ... has filed a gender and religious discrimination complaint with the US Equal Employment Opportunity Commission in New York . @!KOTB: So what do you make of this , this young lady who says ... @!GIFFORD: Well , you know , it 's kind of funny , it comes -- all this stuff 's happening right around the time Maxim magazine comes out with their 100 most gorgeous hottest women in the world , and they picked Bar Refaeli ... @!KOTB: Mm-hmm . @!GIFFORD: ... beautiful Israeli model , and I do n't think anybody is going to question who comes in first , second or third or ... @!KOTB: Mm-hmm . @!GIFFORD: ... even 10th on that list , right ? @!KOTB: Right , right . @!GIFFORD: But then when other people , shall we say , stand up and make accusations that they 're so hot that they -- nobody can just bear their hotness ... @!KOTB: Right . @!GIFFORD: ... it 's just -- it 's just a -- there are others that have been doing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ think it 's a trend and a disturbing one . @!KOTB: Yeah , the tan mom ... @!GIFFORD: Remember this ? @!KOTB: ... remember , she -- yeah , she thinks this . Let 's look . @!Ms-PATRICIA-KRENTC: ( From videotape ) There 's somebody out there my whole life that does n't like me because they 're jealous , they 're fat and they 're ugly . @!KOTB: Well , there you have that . @!GIFFORD: And then back in April , remember , British writer Samantha Brick wrote this essay that started this whole thing in the Daily Mail about how other women hate her because she is so attractive . @!KOTB: Yeah , here 's her quote , she said , " Women hate me for no other reason than for my lovely looks , " and she said that " throughout my adult life I 've regularly had bottles of bubbly or wine sent to my restaurant or table by men I do n't know . Whenever I 'd ask what I 've done to deserve such treatment , the donors of these gifts have always @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ smile just made their day . " People are unbelievable , right ? @!GIFFORD: And then in 2010 , a Citibank worker , Debralee ... @!KOTB: La , la , la. @!GIFFORD: ... Lorenzana said she was fired for , doggone it , being too sexy . @!KOTB: Too pretty . Sexy . @!KOTB: She 's currently fighting -- her former lawyer , Gloria Allred ... @!KOTB: Yeah . @!GIFFORD: ... and the case is -- that Gloria 's a busy woman . I 'm glad to see that the system 's working for Gloria . @!KOTB: I do -- it does take moxie , though , to get up and say , ' Here 's why -- I 'm so distracting because I 'm so pretty that people ca n't work around me. ' @!GIFFORD: I -- it 's just incredible to me ... @!KOTB: Yeah . @!GIFFORD: ... that people have the moxie to say such a thing . I mean , Angelina Jolie , who I think people would say is among the most -- world 's -- if not the world 's most beautiful ... @!KOTB: @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!KOTB: Never . No , never , never . @!GIFFORD: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder , Hoda , I 've always told you this . @!KOTB: Yes . And speaking of hotness , you had a fun lunch yesterday , did n't you ? @!GIFFORD: Who 's hotter than this ? Yesterday Frank and I went to the Greenwich Hyatt up in Old Greenwich , Connecticut , to a luncheon that the National Multiple Sclerosis Society , the Connecticut -- the chapter put on to honor our dear friend Meredith and her -- and her amazing husband Richard . And -- who has been suffering with MS since he was 25 years old . @!KOTB: Mm-hmm . @!GIFFORD: And the two of them were honored and the two of them spoke . @!KOTB: Mm-hmm . @!GIFFORD: And , you know , so many of these luncheons and these dinners and things that you go to , they 're just sort of cold , you know , they 're just sort of ... @!KOTB: Mm-hmm . Impersonal . @!GIFFORD: You raise money for a good cause and you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ moving on so many levels . @!KOTB: Yeah . @!GIFFORD: Number one , they 're both great speakers . @!KOTB: Mm-hmm . @!GIFFORD: Number two , to see the dynamic between the two of them and to see the love that they have for one another which is just authentic , but then to see how raw they both are about everything and how honest , really just honest -- and I -- there was n't a dry eye in the house . It was just sensational . @!KOTB: Richard wrote a great book called " Stronger in the Broken Places . " @!GIFFORD: Yeah . @!KOTB: And I think a lot of people who 've been through a life-threatening illness or something that 's really been debilitating -- he did figure out how to get strong in those spots . @!GIFFORD: Yes . @!KOTB: And he 's just -- he 's inspirational . And she is so raunchy and funny . @!GIFFORD: Oh , my gosh . @!KOTB: By the way , was she really -- what 'd she do ? @!GIFFORD: I ca n't tell you half the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!GIFFORD: But the thing about Richard , I really did n't know how hysterically funny he is , too . @!KOTB: Mm-hmm . @!GIFFORD: He 's talking about all of this and then he goes , ' My next book 's called " I 'm Going to Kill the Dog . " Because he hates their new dog Jasper , so . @!KOTB: He hates Jasper ? @!GIFFORD: You know -- hates him , wants to kill him . He wo n't kill him , of course , it 's just that he ... @!KOTB: Yeah . @!GIFFORD: ... he can find no redeeming qualities in this dog . @!KOTB: All right . @!GIFFORD: Anyway . @!KOTB: So a little later in the show we have Jimmy Fallon with us. @!GIFFORD: Why ? Why is he coming over here to bother us ? @!KOTB: Because he wrote a new book . No , it 's called " Thank You Notes 2 . " Remember , he wrote the first one ? @!GIFFORD: I did n't like " Thank You Notes 1 . " Why are we having him on again @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a new CD coming out . I mean ... @!KOTB: Oh , wait , is he in -- oh , he 's in the greenroom. @!GIFFORD: ... the man -- I mean why ? @!KOTB: Yeah . I do n't ... @!GIFFORD: It 's ... @!KOTB: You know -- yes . And , you know , he 's -- we all remember him from slow-jamming with President Obama , so Jimmy ... @!GIFFORD: I don't. @!KOTB: Well , watch it and you 'll remember . @(Clip-from- " Late-Ni @!KOTB: Come on . Only Jimmy . @!GIFFORD: All right , he does have one or two redeeming qualities . @!KOTB: Anyway , he 'll be with us. @!GIFFORD: Now only in New York , and perhaps Jimmy can tell us if he 's going to buy this , he 's the one that makes the big bucks at " Late Night . " There is going to be a million-dollar parking space . It 's hard to believe . But it 's right next-door or part of -- it 's -- if you 're willing to buy a $39 million penthouse @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ probably going to go more than for a million dollars . The person buying the penthouse gets first crack at that , Hoda. @!KOTB: Can I tell you , it -- look , this is how big it is , just so you know , 12 feet by 23 feet . @!GIFFORD: And 15 feet high . @!KOTB: Twelve feet wide , 23 feet . That 's how much space you 're getting and you 're paying a million dollars for it . That is ridiculous . @!GIFFORD: But think about it , you could amortize it because it 's high enough to be able to put in one of those rising little ones and put your sports car on top of that . @!KOTB: Can you imagine spending a million dollars to park your car in a spot ? That is unbelievable . @!GIFFORD: There will be an auction for this thing , yes . @!KOTB: All right . So we are ... @!GIFFORD: They 've been waiting long enough , they 're bored to death . @!KOTB: ... we 're burying the lead because it is " Dateline @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ All right . And we have the four hotshots of " Dateline NBC " in the house . They 're right behind the newsdesk boozing it up . Josh Mankiewicz , as you see . Chris Hansen , famous for " Predator . " Dennis Murphy , one of the finest writers in the building . Keith Morrison -- you know , no one delivers ... @!GIFFORD: A line . @!KOTB: ... no -- like Keith . @!GIFFORD: You have no idea , Keith , when you 're talking ... @!KOTB: Yes . @!GIFFORD: ... what it does to Hoda. @!KEITH-MORRISON-rep: Oh . @!GIFFORD: I 'm sorry . @!KOTB: Oh , it 's a total ... @!GIFFORD: I am sorry , but she 's in -- she 's -- it -- how can I say it ? @!KOTB: Do n't say it . @!GIFFORD: It 's something to do with her Spanx. @!KOTB: Do n't ... @!GIFFORD: Yeah . It just gets crazy . It gets crazy . @!MORRISON: It 's even better when you 're with her , actually . @!GIFFORD: What ? @!DENNIS-MURPHY-repo: Hoda , you 're with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ us. @!KOTB: Why do n't you guys come over here ? @!MURPHY: You 're us. @!GIFFORD: No , no , you ... @!KOTB: No , no , no , come over here , come over here . @!GIFFORD: They 've got their drinks over there . @!KOTB: Bring your -- bring your drinks -- bring your drinks and come over . @!CHRIS-HANSEN-repor: Drinks ? @!KOTB: Bring your drinks , come on over . @!JOSH-MANKIEWICZ-re: Yeah . @!MORRISON: All right . @!KOTB: And while they 're walking over ... @!GIFFORD: Miss Bossy Pants . @!KOTB: I know . But while they 're walking over we 're going to show a little bit of Keith ... @!MORRISON: Uh-oh. @!KOTB: ... being -- I do n't know -- " SNL " having some fun with Keith while they 're walking over . @!GIFFORD: Oh , I love this . Come on over , guys . @!KOTB: Let 's watch . Come on over . @(Clip-from- " Saturda @!KOTB: So you guys , what 's in store for the big anniversary special ? @!MORRISON: Chopping up a husband . @!KOTB: Uh-huh . @!GIFFORD: Ooh @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ saying -- Keith saying the word " murder . " @!KOTB: Murder . And , Chris , all your " Predator " stuff , are we going to see kind of a re-do of all that ? @!HANSEN: We 're going to see the best of ... @!KOTB: Yeah . @!HANSEN: ... and then some of the other confrontations we 've had on other topics over the years . @!KOTB: Can you imagine when Chris walks in a room ? @!GIFFORD: It 's like when Mike Wallace used to do " 60 Minutes " ... @!KOTB: Yeah . @!GIFFORD: ... you do n't want him showing up at the door . @!KOTB: No. @!MURPHY: Yeah . Mike Wallace for you on two . @!HANSEN: Right . @!GIFFORD: Yes , exactly . @!HANSEN: I one time walked into a jewelry store to look for a gift at the last minute ... @!KOTB: Yeah . @!HANSEN: ... and the guy showed it to me and sweat started pouring ... @!KOTB: Yeah , I would n't doubt it . @!HANSEN: And he said -- he said , ' Do you have a hidden @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ man , I 'm just trying to get a last-minute gift here , you know ? @!GIFFORD: Yeah . Right . @!KOTB: Yeah . Well -- and Murphy -- nobody -- Murphy , you 're like the -- I think you 're the best writer in the building . @!MURPHY: You 're so nice , Hoda. @!KOTB: No , I honestly ... @!MURPHY: You 're -- when ... @!GIFFORD: She said that yesterday to another guy , I just want you to know . @!MURPHY: In her book , she -- cheers to you , dear . @!KOTB: You guys , cheers . Happy birthday . @!GIFFORD: Congratulations , you guys . @!MURPHY: Yeah . @!HANSEN: Thank you very much . @!MURPHY: Great . Thank you , Kathie Lee . @!KOTB: Tonight ... @!GIFFORD: So it airs tonight what time , everybody ? @!MURPHY: Bros. @!HANSEN: Ten o'clock Eastern . @!KOTB: Ten o'clock PM. @!GIFFORD: All right . @!KOTB: Cheers , guys , cheers . @!GIFFORD: All the best for 20 years of great work , guys . @!MURPHY: Thank you so much , guys . @!GIFFORD: God bless . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , our good friend Jimmy Fallon is in the house . @!GIFFORD: He used to be a good friend . We 're going to find out what he 's so thankful about right after this . @!KOTB: So call me maybe . @!HANSEN: Fun girl . @!KOTB: Yeah . @!GIFFORD: Yes . @!KOTB: Drinking and laughing . @!GIFFORD: Yes , drinking and laughing . '

@@4104041 @!JOHN-KING-CNN-ANC: Good evening . I 'm John King . Tonight , call it the backdoor DREAM Act -- why the president decided 144 days before the election to take a bold step many Latino groups would have liked on day one . And Mitt Romney 's battleground bus tour -- as he promises more jobs if he wins the White House , is he also auditioning prospects for the job of running mate ? And an inside at a Colorado focus group -- what 10 Obama 2008 supporters said that made the event organizer , a Democrat , conclude this . President Obama , he says , is in trouble . Up first tonight , President Obama 's dramatic change in immigration policy , it has most Latino groups cheering and many conservatives chafing . You have likely heard of the shift by now . The Obama will not only stop deporting younger illegal immigrants . It will make up to perhaps a military undocumented residents under the age of 30 eligible for work permits . You might call this the backdoor DREAM Act , the president using executive power to do something Congress has considered , but not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not amnesty . This is not immunity . This is not a path to citizenship . It 's not a permanent fix . This is a temporary , stopgap measure that lets us focus our resources wisely while giving a degree of relief and hope to talented , driven , patriotic young people . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!KING: Now , the administration insists it has the legal power to set deportation priorities . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!JANET-NAPOLITANO-: As someone who is charged with enforcing the immigration system , we 're setting good , strong , sensible priorities , and , again , these young people really are not the individuals that the immigration removal process was designed to focus upon . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!KING: Now , that 's where the fight is . Even some conservatives who support the policy shift say the president ca n't do it without congressional approval . Freshman Florida GOP Senator Marco Rubio , for example , said this of President Obama -- quote -- " By once again ignoring the Constitution and going around Congress , this short-term policy will make it harder to find a balanced and responsible @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , very senior , you might call him the most senior administration official , seemed to agree , the White House could n't act on its own . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!OBAMA-: The notion that I can just suspend deportations through executive order , that 's just not the case because there are laws on the books that Congress has passed . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!KING: That was then . This is now , 144 days before an election in which the Latino vote could swing a few battlegrounds . Even some of the president 's closest allies wonder why if he has this power he waited three-and-a-half years to use it . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!SEN-RICHARD-DURBIN: Let me say a word about the man who co-signed the letter that I sent to President Obama and Secretary Napolitano two years ago asking for this . His name is Dick Lugar . He was the only Republican senator who had the courage to step up and join me in signing this letter to Secretary Napolitano. @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!KING: Why no when that letter was sent two years ago , but yes now ? Our chief White House correspondent @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ policy shift that , forgive me , most people in town think is about politics . @!JESSICA-YELLIN-CN: And it is hard to disagree with that to a large extent , John . Look , the administration will say that this is about having studied their policy after three years . They have cracked down on deportations , or deported more people than in the past , and that they think they have really tightened the border so that no real threats to society are getting in , and that 's why they can now focus on lightening up on this . Bottom line , though , right before an election , what they need to do is not just get the Latino vote , but ensure that Latinos turn out to vote , feel energized . As you know , the president promised immigration reform would be a top priority , it has n't come up . He needs to do something . @!KING: It has been the quicksand of American politics for five , six , maybe more even years now . Where do you think their cover is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Do they feel they have enough cover ? @!YELLIN: One thing that is interesting , John , as you know , they brought in a group of evangelicals to the White House earlier this week , not just progressive evangelicals , but conservatives , Richard Land , Southern Baptist . And this is meaningful because they were talking immigration reform . An umbrella group of evangelicals right and left said that they 're glad that the White House is moving toward immigration reform . That gives them a little bit of cover . And it 's an issue -- having the kids of illegal immigrants get some protection is an issue that has support right and left among political groups . They feel they have a little cover on this . @!KING: Probably the least controversial piece of what is a very complicated immigration puzzle . Jess , thanks so much . @!YELLIN: Right . @!KING: And the president 's actions come just as Republican challenger Mitt Romney is accelerating his outreach to Hispanic voters and just days before the two candidates for the very first time appear at the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Romney took his time responding to go the president 's big announcement , but finally spoke to reporters in New Hampshire . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!MITT-ROMNEY-@1R@2 , : I believe the status of young people who come here through no fault of their own is an important matter to be considered and should be solved on a long-term basis , so they know what their future would be in this country . I think the action that the president took today makes it more difficult to reach that long-term solution , because an executive order is , of course , just a short-term matter . It can be reversed by subsequent presidents . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!KING: National political correspondent Jim Acosta was right there as that played out . Jim , the governor did n't respond right away , seemed like he wanted to think about this one a bit . Why ? @!JIM-ACOSTA-CNN-CO: That 's right . Well , I will tell you that the Romney campaign was caught off guard by this today , John . It was pretty apparent at the first event that Romney had today . I talked @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a blatant pivot away from what was a bad couple of weeks on the economy for this president . And this is disappointing for the Romney campaign . You could sense that they were disappointed today because they had this carefully crafted six-state bus tour that is going on over the next five days , started here in New Hampshire , it 's heading to Pennsylvania tonight , and Ohio over the weekend , and they were pulling out all the stops . They had a jib camera there possibly filming a new TV commercial that might be unveiled somewhere down the road . They had potential running mates in Tim Pawlenty and Kelly Ayotte here . But this campaign is hoping to get all of this back on track . They will be going to Ohio on Sunday , where they will be with Rob Portman and Speaker of the House John Boehner , and then on Monday with Paul Ryan . All of these potential running mates are seeming to be auditioning during this bus tour . But , John , it is very interesting to note who @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to Marco Rubio . During his remarks to reporters here in Milford , New Hampshire , he referred to Marco Rubio 's stance , his position , his take on the president 's change on immigration policy today . The one veepstakes candidate who is not on the road for this bus tour is the one that got the shout-out today , John . @!KING: An interesting and important point from our Jim Acosta , Marco Rubio , top adviser to the nominee on a very tough question here going forward . Jim , thanks so much . Is it smart politics or shameless expediency ? Our senior political analyst David Gergen has advised four presidents . Is that the right way to frame it , David ? And if so , which is it ? @!DAVID-GERGEN-CNN-: It is both , as you well know , John . On the surface , this was very smart politics . These two candidates are sort of playing a game of three-dimensional chess with each other . And , today , President Obama took one of Romney 's pawns , and he moved @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ took the lead , and stole the headlines from Romney just as he started this bus tour . But I think underneath this , John , there 's this question about , wait a minute , you could have done this months ago . If you could do this by executive order , why did n't you do it in the beginning of your administration ? It is so blatantly political on the part of the president that it causes obviously a certain amount of cynicism , not to mention the fact that he bypassed the Congress to do this and used the executive order . So , I think on the surface , it helps the president a lot , and I think puts Romney on his back heels . But over time , I think it has a corrosive effect on the authority of this president . @!KING: You say a corrosive effect on the authority . It may help him politically . The question is , as you gain over here , maybe excite Latinos , maybe guarantee that you keep that big margin among Latinos you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ somewhere else ? Would independents not like expediency ? Is this because the president is already suffering more , hurting more among working-class whites than he did in 2008 ? @!GERGEN: Well , there are certainly parts of the country that wanted to get the border secured before we started figuring out what to do with the 12 million people that were here . I happen to be very sympathetic with the DREAM Act . I think it is a wise idea . I thought the Rubio substitute for Republicans was a wise idea . President Romney was going -- Mitt Romney was getting himself into a box I thought on immigration . I thought he misplayed it during the primaries . Having said that , look , I think the president pays a price when he seems to be doing things for total political gain , as opposed to why he thinks it is a wise policy . If he thought it was a wise policy , why did n't President Obama do this a long time ago if he thought it was the humane , proper approach ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hour , and it so clearly smacks of politics , as you said . It 's both expedient and smart . @!KING: And yet expedient and smart -- does it put pressure on Governor Romney -- he 's going to speak at the same Latino group as the president next week -- to come forward with any changed policy of his own , to directly address this in some ways with the White House doing this not only to gain among Latino voters , but to pressure Romney on an issue that could put him in a tough spot with his own base ? @!GERGEN: Absolutely . Absolutely . And that 's why I thought the three-dimensional chess thing . I think he sort of -- he put Romney in a bit of a corner . And what this president so clearly is going to do , just as he showed in his Ohio speech yesterday and now he did on immigration , he is going to take every one of the tough stands that Romney took in order to appeal to the right wing of the Republican Party , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on him , he is going to try to flip it on him , and put him in a tough spot . And this one -- if Romney were to come out with the same rhetoric he used during the primaries now , he would sound very tin-eared . His own party , with Rubio and Jeb Bush and others , have been saying , hey , look , Mitt , you have got to soften this somewhat , you have to look after these kids who came here . There are a lot of Mexican kids , as you know , down in the Rio Grande area and Florida and California who came here with their parents when they were young , they are finishing college . And one thing that they are really worried about is they 're going to get deported , forcibly kicked out of the country , and that 's what the DREAM Act was about . And I think that Mitt Romney got himself in the wrong -- he got himself so far over and so rigid on this issue , it is hard @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!KING: Well , the president made the first play today . We will see what Governor Romney does heading into that big duel event next week . @!GERGEN: He sure did . @!KING: David Gergen , appreciate your insights tonight , as always . Later , a pair of Republicans with differing views debate how to get a long-term fix for our broken immigration system . But , first , what looks like Mitt Romney 's latest round of auditions for vice president . One his possible , you see her right there , Senator Kelly Ayotte , joins us next . @!KING: Some interesting and possibly significant stagecraft at one of Mitt Romney 's stops in New Hampshire today . Take a look . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!SEN-KELLY-AYOTTE-@: A great leader , the next president of the United States , Governor Mitt Romney. @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!KING: The woman in red there who just introduced Mitt Romney is New Hampshire 's junior senator , Kelly Ayotte . She 's a former New Hampshire attorney general and was elected to the United States Senate back in 2010 . She 's also one of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ running mate . The senator joins us now from Manchester . I will get to that in just a second , Senator , the mystery of who will share the ticket . But let 's focus on the substance of the event today . Governor Romney is on this bus tour starting in New Hampshire , small state , but one of the key battlegrounds . He 's going to go through Pennsylvania , Ohio , Michigan and beyond on this bus tour , trying to take away the key states that will decide the fall . @!SEN-KELLY-AYOTTE-@: Right . @!KING: Here was part of his economic message to the people of New Hampshire . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!ROMNEY: For so many Americans , the distance between their town and the city of Washington has never seemed so far . The federal establishment has never seemed so hostile and so remote , so disconnected from economic reality , and yet so willing to use restrictions and regulations , taxes and fines , commissions , and czars to direct our daily lives . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!KING: Is it a tougher sell is my question @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ look at the numbers back when President Obama took office , the unemployment rate was 5.2 percent ? It is 5 percent now . So , it went from -- especially relatively if you look nationally , it went from not bad to even better . Is it a harder sell for the challenger in a state that is doing pretty well ? @!AYOTTE: Well , certainly our unemployment rate is 5 percent , John , but I have gone throughout our state and I have talked to so many small business owners , and they have the same concerns that Governor Romney is talking about , strangling regulations from Washington , rising health care costs as a result of Obamacare , and just a deep concern about the fiscal state of the country . And I hear that from all of my constituents . And I think that Governor Romney hit those issues strong today , a concern not only about what 's happening right now , but the future for our children . @!KING: I mentioned this bus tour . He 's going through the battleground states , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ including you , Senator . And some of asking the question are these auditions or " getting to know you " sessions ? I want to show our viewers during the course of this bus tour over the next few days , Senator Ayotte was there today , Governor Pawlenty , the former governor of Minnesota , was there today . I think he continues on . Senator Rob Portman will be there in his home state of Ohio . Senator -- Representative Paul Ryan -- excuse me -- will be there in his home state of Wisconsin . Tell me , Senator Ayotte , why the lady in the group here would be the best running mate for Mitt Romney ? @!AYOTTE: Well , I have to tell you this , John . I do n't view it the same way as you . I do n't think they are auditions . I believe all of us or most of us campaigned with him well before he was the nominee . And I have been supporting him since November . And we are going to be in our states @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is representing New Hampshire . And I think when Mitt Romney is president , he 's going to need people like me to work with him to solve the problems that our country faces in the Senate . @!KING: And you answer that way because you assume you will be in the Senate . You have not been asked for what I call the Roto-Rooter of the vice president vetting process . @(CROSSTALK) @!AYOTTE: No , John . The only thing that I have been doing is campaigning , and helping the campaign to make sure that Mitt Romney gets elected . @!KING: Do you think he should pick a woman , even if it is not you ? @!AYOTTE: I think he should pick the person that he thinks is best qualified to serve with him and to serve our country . @!KING: That was a careful , careful answer . It was very nice . If you had a chance , if you had a chance to debate Joe Biden , what would be your number one goal ? @!AYOTTE: Well , I think it would be a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ There 's such a different vision that Mitt Romney has for our country and that I share for him , one of fiscal responsibility , of getting our fiscal house in order , and creating a climate for the private sector , repealing Obamacare , making sure that government becomes a partner with business , instead of what we have right now , where it is hostile to business and hurting employers . So , that 's what the debate would be about , a very different vision for this country , and one that will get people back to work and will make sure that we preserve our country and do n't become bankrupt . @!KING: As you know , some people say this is the most important decision a nominee makes and a lot of other people say as long as he does n't have a disaster , it does n't matter who the number two is . Where do you stand ? @!AYOTTE: Well , I stand that I think obviously the position of vice president is very important , but ultimately it is going to be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and I think at the end of the day , they will judge that Governor Romney has the private sector experience and obviously the experience as governor to get our country turned around and on the right track . @!KING: And , lastly , on a scale of one to 10 , one being no , 10 being yes , what 's the likelihood Kelly Ayotte would be that pick ? @!AYOTTE: You know , John , I do n't even think about that , because , right now , it is all about working hard on behalf of my constituents and particularly on making sure that Mitt Romney gets elected president . @!KING: Will he win New Hampshire ? @!AYOTTE: I think he will . We are truly a swing state . The last time we went for the GOP was in 2000 . But he has great connections in New Hampshire , he has been working very hard here , and his message of fiscal responsibility very much resonates in New Hampshire . @!KING: Senator Ayotte , appreciate your time tonight . Diplomatic answers . Maybe you 're @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to be with you , John . @(CROSSTALK) @!KING: See you in the days ahead . Have a great weekend . Still ahead : the " Truth " how President Obama 's immigration switch could help him in some crucial battleground states . But , next , a judge rules on whether a pilot accused of goes berserk during a cross-country flight is competent to stand trial . @!KING: Welcome back . @(NEWS-BREAK) @!KING: In a moment : a Republican congressman from Florida and one from California react to today 's big change in immigration policy . And we will listen in . This is fascinating . A focus group of Colorado voters , 10 of whom went for President Obama in 2008 , what they say now points to big trouble for the president . @!COOPER: In this half-hour of " JOHN @!KING , USA , " a pair of Republicans react to President Obama 's end-around , bypassing the Congress to stop the deportations of young illegal immigrants . Also , a fascinating look at the nuts and bolts of politics . A Colorado focus group sends President @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ there 's no question today 's moment you probably missed this irritated the president , but reporters with even louder voices have annoyed presidents before . More now on today 's top story . Less than five months before Election Day , President Obama made a dramatic shift in the country 's immigration policy . He 's directing the government to stop deporting some young illegal immigrants who were brought to the United States as children . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!BARACK-OBAMA-PRES: This is not amnesty . This is not immunity . This is not a path to citizenship . It 's not a permanent fix . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!KING: Joining me now to discuss this controversial change , two Republicans with different points of view : Congressman Mario Diaz Ballart of Florida and Congressman Duncan Hunter of California . Congressman Hunter , let me start with you . You just heard the president there . He says this is not amnesty , and he says it 's the right thing to do . Is it ? @!REP-DUNCAN-HUNTER-: Well , first off , John , good to be with you and with my great @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as well , from Florida . It is amnesty , plain and simple . The president 's being disingenuous when he says that . It is an amnesty , and he is making things harder for himself and harder for this immigration fix to actually happen through -- through the U.S. Congress the way that it is supposed to . The reason that we have this problem now , period , is because our nation 's borders are not secured . If you have secured nation 's borders , Mario and I might be on the same side of this . I might say all right , not a bad step , but the nation 's borders are not secure . You ca n't promise this wo n't have to happen every other year to accommodate all of those folks who come here illegally . So by doing this , he has messed up the process . And he 's also made , in my opinion , kind of a permanent sub class of people that are not trying to get citizenship , but are now here in America legally @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's not what we want . What we want is a permanent immigration fix and an actual secured border here . And this is not a California problem or a Florida problem . It 's an American problem , and I think most Americans would agree that , if we 're going to fix immigration , you have to secure the borders first . That 's not what 's happening . @!KING: But Congressman Diaz Ballart , the president 's argument , his team 's argument , is that there 's no way Congress is going to pass a comprehensive bill . And so he 's going to take this slice , which they think , yes , they think it helps them politically . They also thinks it 's the least controversial piece of immigration . Is the president doing the right thing here ? @!REP-MARIO-DIAZ-BAL: John , that 's his solution now . The question is , as one who 's been supportive of a DREAM Act having an issue for a long , long time is where has he been all this time ? Doug and I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Actually , we all agree that the United States has a right to decide who comes in and who leaves . I think all countries have that right . And I also agree with him when he says that this actually makes , I think , a long-term , a real fix more difficult . When the president says that he could n't get it through Congress , how do we know that ? John , I -- my office , my chief of staff and myself , have been contacting the White House , saying let 's sit down and let 's try to work something out . Let 's try to come together and try to have legislation , bipartisan legislation so we can actually have a long- term , a real fix of this issue . And the president has -- frankly has n't even called me back , has n't gotten back to us . He 's been totally missing in action , and that 's a real shame . This is a real issue . Now , whether we agree or disagree on , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Well , I think there maybe Duncan and I disagree . This makes it more difficult to get a real fix done , and it 's pretty evident this is done strictly for political reasons . He himself said , by the way , as you put it on the show a little while ago , that it could n't be done administratively . Now he 's doing it administratively . The reality is he could have done it before . The only reason he 's doing this , by the way , is because Marco Rubio has legislation out there that was starting to get bipartisan . People were starting to look at it seriously , and the president wanted to kill that , wanted to make sure that Congress did n't do anything , and so therefore he does this . It 's really sad that for his election , he may jeopardize legislation that we need to get done to fix this immigration problem . @!KING: And what happens now , do you propose , Congressman ? What happens to Mitt Romney now ? You heard his @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , he would like to help those young illegal immigrants who , through no fault of their own are here , carried across the border by their parents . But he says this is the wrong way to do it . So you might disagree with him on the solution . But he agrees with you this is the wrong way to do it . If he -- if Governor Romney now tries to reach for what I 'll call the center on this , what happens to him on his right ? @!HUNTER: Yes , I think he simply has to be honest . I think President Obama is doing it purely for political reasons . He does n't have a long-term fix . Mitt Romney wants a long-term fix . That 's why he looks carefully at Marco Rubio in Florida and some of the other running mates that are , you know , possible with this . But he actually wants a fix to this . And Obama does n't . I think that 's -- that 's why he 's being careful . He 's not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " Here 's what I 'm going to do by presidential fiat . " He 's going to talk about what Congress can actually do and get accomplished that solves this problem in the long term . So I do n't think you 're going to get like , you know , short , stand-by answers out of Mitt Romney on this . Nor should we want that if we want him to be president . We want a deliberative thinking president that 's not going to make decisions or deals for political reasons . @!KING: And Congressman Diaz Ballart , you think this is the wrong way for the president to do it . You think he makes a long-term comprehensive solution harder . Let me ask you this question , though . In terms of raw politics in your state of Florida , a battleground state , does it help him ? @!DIAZ-BALLART: Short term , it probably does help him ; long term , it hurts him . And it also reminds people in the Latino community around the United States that this is a president that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ going to pass and -- present and pass immigration reform . He 's yet to present a bill . And then he said that he could n't do this administratively , and now he does it . He shows that he 's -- he really just seems to be a president who 's not concerned about being president , but he 's more concerned about being a candidate , and he will say and do anything to get reelected . That does n't look good for the president of the United States . I think again , Mitt Romney , whether you agree with him or disagree on a number of issues , you can count on him . He 's serious . By the way , he also knows how to fix the economy . And I think part of the reason the president has done this now , is not only to try to get some votes that he 's lacking , but also to try to divert attention from the real issue , which is the sad state of the economy . President Obama has been a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . And again , I think the president just looks weak . He looks undecisive SIC , and he frankly looks like he ca n't say the truth , no matter what . @!KING: Congressman Diaz Ballart , Congressman Hunter of Florida and California respectively . Gentlemen , we 'll continue the conversation . Thanks for your time tonight . @!HUNTER: Thank you . @!KING: " President Obama is in trouble . " Those five to-the-point words lead a memo about a recent focus group in Colorado . Powerful anyway , but more so because the man who wrote them is a veteran Democratic strategist who wants the president to win . Pollster Peter Hart sat down with a dozen voters , then of them -- this is important -- Obama supporters back in 2008 . Only four of the 12 are committed to vote for the president this year . And Peter Hart says that 's because even those who like the president see no plan , no road mark , no conviction . Here 's a glimpse . We 'll take you inside this fascinating focus group , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ try to get their perspectives about Governor Romney. @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!PETER-HART-POLLST: You 're a plus in the force , nine other people with you , how would Romney handle the situation ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL: He will call for help . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE: Is Romney with us ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL: Probably going to call Donald Trump . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE: Probably going to call Donald Trump . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!KING: Probably going to call Donald Trump . That 's a snippet of what they think about if they 're in the forest with Mitt Romney . How about Hillary Clinton ? @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HART: Hillary Clinton in the same situation . You and nine friends , what would she do ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE: Take jabs at the press . @(CROSSTALK) @!HART: What ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL: I think she 'd take charge . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!KING: Take charge for Hillary Clinton . You heard what they think Governor Romney would be like in the forest , what Secretary of State Clinton would be in the forest . How about the president ? @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HART: How about Obama ? What would Barack Obama do ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL: Blame it on Bush . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE: Blame it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ talk , I think . @!HART: OK . Anybody else ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE: Come up with a slogan . @!HART: I 'm sorry ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE: Come up with a slogan . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!KING: Man leading that discussion , pollster Peter Hart , joins me now . So Romney would call for help . A joke about Donald Trump . Hillary Clinton would kick ass , take charge . The president of the United States would have a slogan , call a meeting . My impression from looking at the three answers is the president does n't come out as the strongest leader . @!HART: I do n't think either Romney or the president comes out as the strongest leader . One is using sort of his wealth and his connections . The other person is really not taking charge . Four years ago when they talked about Barack Obama , what they said is this person that gets people together , brings together coalitions , would make things work . And this stage of the game , people are feeling it 's too much of a show . That it 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ -- on the surface . @!KING: You do this an interesting way . You do ask policy questions , but part of their get to go know you , you do what would it be like in the forest ? You also ask who do you want to go to the ballgame with ? @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!HART: Why do you go with him ? @!HART: OK . For three of you , because he 'd pick up the tab . OK . Why are you going with Obama ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE: Just not political . I think Obama knows a lot . I 'm a huge sports nut . I know Obama is pretty educated in sports . I 've never heard Romney talk about sports . I think Obama ... @!HART: Why are you going with Obama ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL: I thought he 'd be more fun . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!KING: So if you want someone to pay for the $8 beer , you bring Mitt Romney . If you want more fun , you bring the president . How does that translate into what happens on election day ? @!HART: Well , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ find the person that we like and we relate to does better . And to be perfectly honest , Romney has yet to connect . He is still sort of a stick like figure . By the way , this was done for the Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania . @!KING: Important to get that in there . You say Romney is still undefined ; he 's like a stick figure . And yet -- and yet , ten of these people voted for Obama last time . Only four of the group would commit to that this time , in part because let 's listen : on the big issue , here 's Governor Romney , views of Governor Romney. @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE: I know that he actually , unlike Obama , he 's been a lifelong politician . Romney actually has experience in the private sector and has -- has created jobs , knows some of the hurdles that , you know , go along with that . @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL: He 's made money . He came from money , but he made a lot of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And that 's good because ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL: I think if you can operate your country like you operate your life , that 's good . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!KING: If you read your report and if you watch this video , which I did today , I see only an upside for Governor Romney . If he 's undefined still but people have that impression , if only four of the ten who voted for the president last time do so this time , if Romney does a good job here on out , that 's why you say the president is in trouble ? Right ? @!HART: Well , the president is in trouble , because he had so much going for him at this stage of the campaign . It 's too much glitz ; it 's too much glamour . @!KING: Paying the price for being the aspirational , transformational guy in 2008 . So people had him up here , and now they see what real life is like ? @!HART: Exactly , but they are willing to go with him . If he paints a future and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Here 's where we are , and here 's what I 'm going to do about the future . The challenge for Romney is people do n't know his economic plan . They do n't have any sense of him . They do n't have any sense of Bain Capital . All of those things are still in play . And what it really is , it 's a long way from here to there . But these people really point out the challenge that 's facing the president . @!KING: A hundred and forty-four days to go . You 're the maestro of this stuff . We 'll know more as we go forward . Right ? @!HART: Thank you . @!KING: Peter , thank you . Up next , the " Truth " about President Obama 's immigration decision . Was it the right thing to do , and how will it play politically ? @!KING: They call it the Rose Garden strategy for good reason . It was there just outside the Oval Office that President Obama today announced his administration would not deport young , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ parents . And not only that , he 'll allow them to get legal status to work . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!OBAMA-: I believe that it 's the right thing to do because I 've been with groups of young people who worked so hard and speak with so much heart about what 's best in America . Even though I knew some of them must have lived under the fear of deportation . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!KING: Is it the right thing to do ? Well , there 's already a fierce debate in our politics about that . Will it help politically ? Truth is , even the president 's toughest GOP critics see today 's move as a potential plus in some of the key November battleground states . Let 's take a look . If you look at the map now , we have it this way : 247 Electoral College votes solid or leaning for the president , 206 solid or leaning to Governor Romney . Our yellow states here are tossup states , the truest of the battlegrounds at the moment . Let 's look at just a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a look . Let 's go to the national map . There is no question -- no question at all that in the state of Nevada , the Latino vote is critical . Let 's take a look here : 26.5 percent , little more than a quarter of the vote in Nevada will be Latino voters . That 's up a little bit from 2008 . Back then , look at that . That 's a wow . Seventy-six percent in Nevada went for President Obama . He holds anywhere close to those numbers , that 's a very , very tough state for Governor Romney . We 'll see if this one helped . That 's the state of Nevada . Let 's bring the map back out . Let 's come here . Another state is the state of Florida . We just talked to a congressman there who says it will probably help in the short term . Again , more than 20 percent . Nearly a quarter of the vote will be Latino . That 's up even a bit more than Nevada from 2008 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Latino population is more complicated in Florida than it is in Nevada . Cubans , Puerto Ricans , as well as Mexicans and Latin , South Americans . But look at that . This is a key state top watch , because Florida is much tougher for the president this time than it was last time around . And this is the place where the impact of this decision could help . We 'll watch that as we go ahead . Let me try one more state . I want to go to a smaller state , a smaller state in the sense of look at this . In the state of Virginia , the president won it last time , turned it from red to blue . A much tinier slice of the electorate , about 8 percent , is Latino . But look how quickly it 's growing . Just from 2008 , it 's up nearly 2 percent . Here was the margin last time . That 's roughly the national margin : two-thirds of the vote for President Obama , then Senator Obama , about one-third @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ want to watch this . Virginia is more red this time than it was in 2008 . It is a tossup question to watch as to whether this plays out there on that . So how will it help ? How much will it help ? Will it help at all ? Here tonight to talk " Truth , " Tara Wall . She 's a senior communications adviser to Mitt Romney , and CNN political contributor , Hilary Rosen . Tara , the president does this today . I know you think it 's the wrong way to do this . Your candidate says it makes long-term immigration reform hard to get to , but in 144 days , will it help him where it matters most ? TARA @!WALL , COMMUNICATIONS ADVISOR TO MITT @!ROMNEY: Well , if the goal is to bring out his base , to pander to his base , then yes , if that 's what the intent is . I mean , you have to look at why this was done . I mean , certainly , after three-and-a-half years , many have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ understands , he recognizes that he 's certainly in trouble with his core . I mean , look , the numbers are still in his favor relative to Hispanic Americans . But at the same time , he knows he 's in trouble with his core constituency . And right now , particularly because the economy is in such bad shape and Hispanics are being impacted so harshly , it looks like it 's a bit of a pivot to draw the fact away from 11 percent Hispanic unemployment . So what do you do ? You say , " Well , I 'm going to address immigration . I 'm going to do something about immigration . " So I think that -- I think you might see a slight uptick . But at the end of the day , I think there is legitimacy in the fact that , long term is what we 're looking at . And what is going to happen long term , what can you do long term , and why are you circumventing Congress to do it ? @!KING: Is it -- @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . First of all , that it is the right thing to do . It has been the right thing to do for years , and Congress has refused to pass a bill . @!KING: They say why did n't he do it a year ago ? @!ROSEN: For Mitt Romney to say , " Well , it 's going to block us from doing long-term immigration , " when he campaigned the entire Republican primary and said , " I 'm against the DREAM Act . I 'm against doing this immigration policy . " For him to now suggest , " Well , it 's not so much the policy . It 's that it 's going to -- it 's going to impede long-term immigration , " is just the height of hypocrisy . We have to call him on it . @!KING: There is a shift under way , to her point in Governor Romney 's rhetoric . He did say he would veto the Democratic version of the DREAM Act . Now he says he wants to work with Marco Rubio . The core issue @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ children who , if they 're under the age of 16 when their parents brought them across the border illegally , they 're going to school , they 're going to college , some of them serve in the military , they 're paying taxes . They have violated no laws . Should they be punished for their parent 's actions ? During the primary he did say yes . @!HART: Well -- well , this is what I 'm talking about . From what I understand , 800,000 15- to 30-year-olds . And certainly , it is an issue that has to be addressed . I mean , whether you -- you could argue all day about whether it 's amnesty , what 's right and wrong . There 's certainly ... @!ROSEN: In the primary , he wanted those people deported . @!WALL: Excuse me . During the party -- look , within the party , there is -- there are plenty of opinions about this . And I think there 's plenty of time to talk about how we address this . There 's no easy solution @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ He 's also said he 's open to hearing other solutions like the DREAM Act . I think the more he 's heard from others , including Marco Rubio , the more he 's opened to broadening the idea of what we need to do with the folks , the young people , who are here through no fault of their own . If nothing else , we often see today that he does not -- his opinion is the same essentially in some degree to President Obama 's . The difference is , what do we do as a long-term strategy ? @!KING: If you talk to some of the people crunching the numbers for her camp , the Romney camp , they see this . Some of them say , yes , let 's acknowledge this . It might help the president . But they also see it as A , proof we have a base election . Everyone 's going to try to get every last base voter out . And they say this is a response to the president looking maybe at other states like a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ whites he 's in tougher shape than he was in 2008 . Is that fair ? @!ROSEN: No , I do n't think so . Yes , this may help him politically , but this has been an objective of the president , to help these young people for years . It has not happened . The Latino community is advocating immigration reform , did not want him to do this earlier , because they wanted Congress to pass something more comprehensive . @!KING: They say -- they say they wanted the whole pie . Did n't want this @(ph) . @!ROSEN: They did not want this . This is a last resort because of inaction and obstruction by the Republicans . And it is crazy to me that we can just keep saying the name Marco Rubio , Marco Rubio , Marco Rubio , and all of a sudden that 's a Republican immigration policy . @!WALL: Listen ... @!ROSEN: You know , that 's the Romney strategy . @!WALL: No , I think that he certainly has some opinions on this , along with Ileana Ros-Lehtinen and others @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this . And I think that -- I think it says a lot that he 's willing to open to varying viewpoints . I think at the end of the day , if you also look at some of the polls , the No. 1 issue among Latinos is the economy . And that is an issue that President Obama knows that he can not run on right now in the Hispanic community . He 's having trouble with that . And the immigration issue also impacts the economy . So I think at the end of the day , you have to address the issues that are important to this community and not just assume that immigration alone is the only issue . @!ROSEN: I do n't think he ever said that . He knows that he is running on the economy . I think he 's talked about it . He made a speech about it for an hour yesterday . @!WALL: ... he decided to do something about immigration ... @!KING: It will be fun to watch . We 'll have both of these candidates at the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ at the same event , for the first time , the end of next week , on this very issue , will be great to watch . Hilary , Sara ... @!WALL: You might see lawsuits . They 're coming already ... @!KING: You might see -- you might see those . @!ROSEN: You may . @!KING: Ladies , have a great weekend . Next , way after the fact , the United States finally honors a spy plane pilot who was shot down over the Soviet Union . And today 's " Moment You Missed , " the renewal of a White House tradition . One I do n't think is necessary . Rude reporters . @!KING: Welcome back . Here 's Mary Snow with the latest news you need to know right now . Hello there . @!MARY-SNOW-CNN-COR: Hey there , John . More turmoil in Syria as a U.N . observer says violence between the government and the rebels is thwarting a mission for peace in the country . The U.N . monitor says neither side is obeying the cease- fire , and there 's no other @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Francis Gary Powers today with the Silver Star medal for his , quote , " exceptional loyalty " during the Cold War . The Air Force pilot parachuted into Soviet Union territory after his plane was shot down in 1960 . Powers was captured and suffered brutal interrogation till his release in a prisoner exchange two years later . And you can forget jumping into Niagara Falls . Tonight will be the latest attempt to tight rope walk across it . The event has daredevil Nik Wallenda suspended almost 200 feet above the falls . Not to hold your breath , but Wallenda will be wearing a harness as he crosses the 1,800-foot wire above the cascade . I 'm still holding my breath . @!KING: Good luck to him . No , would n't get me up there . No , best of luck , though . Best of luck . Here 's something I understand a little better than walking across a tight rope on Niagara Falls . Mary , stay with me . Tonight 's " Moment You May Have Missed . " A reporter starts asking @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!OBAMA-: It is the right thing to do . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE: @(UNINTELLIGIBLE) @!OBAMA-: Excuse me , sir . It 's not time for questions , sir . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE: @(UNINTELLIGIBLE) @!OBAMA-: Not while I 'm speaking . Precisely because ... @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!KING: The reporter there who so annoyed the president in the president 's own yard there is Neil Monroe , who works for the conservative Web site The Daily Call . A lot of people on Twitter said , well , he has every right to do that ; it 's just like Sam Donaldson , the bellowing voice of ABC during the Reagan area . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!RONALD-REAGAN-FOR: I 'm hopeful that I 'm finally going to hear some of the things that I 'm still waiting to learn about ... @!SAM-DONALDSON-FOR: About what you did -- you have to have someone else tell you what you did ? Do n't you know what you did ? @!REAGAN: I know what I did . And I have told all of you repeatedly what I did and now I 'm going to quit talking . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!KING: Notice where the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't approve of Munro 's shouting today . He tells " The Washington Post 's " Karen Tumulty , " I never interrupted any president while he was making a formal presentation of any sort . You do n't do that , do you ? " Sam always waited until the president finished . I worked alongside him , Mary , for a long time . He understood respect matters . Have a great weekend , Mary . That 's all for us tonight . " ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT " starts right now .

@@4104141 @!SCOTT , FOX HOST @(voice-over) : On FOX NEWS WATCH -- @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!JAY-CARNEY-WHITE-: We believe that you all ought to do your jobs and report on context . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!SCOTT: -- White House spin man , Jay Carney , wants the D.C. press to report on context . But who defines the context on the White House leaks , the Fast and Furious scandal , a possible contempt of Congress charge against the attorney general , the commerce secretary 's hit-and-run accidents after a seizure , all stories plaguing the White House and getting media attention . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!BARACK-OBAMA-PRES: There will be no shortage of gaffs and controversies . I recently made my own unique contribution to that process . @(LAUGHTER) @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!SCOTT: The president 's " private sector is doing fine " comment is still getting coverage , but are the liberal media dismissing the meaning of his message ? @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @(GUNFIRE) @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!SCOTT: The civil war in Syria , relations with Russia , tensions with Iran , and the economic meltdown in Europe all raising questions about Mr. Obama 's foreign policies . But have the media been glossing over the concerns ? @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!BILL-MAHER-COMEDI: I would @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be Mormon . @(LAUGHTER) It 's a stupid religion and a stupid country . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!SCOTT: Liberal loud mouth Bill Maher attacks Mitt Romney 's religion , then calls our nation stupid . And Bush 41 gets the HBO treatment . Was it fair ? @(on-camera) : On the panel this week , writer and FOX News contributor , Judy Miller ; Richard Grenell , former spokesman for the last four U.S. ambassadors to the U.N. ; Jim Pinkerton , contributing editor , the " American Conservative " magazine ; and " Daily Beast " columnist , Kirsten Powers . I 'm Jon Scott . FOX NEWS WATCH is on right now . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!UNIDENTIFIED-REPOR: Can you assure that the White House and the people who speak for President Obama will not take somewhat unflattering sentence @(ph) of Governor Romney and use it out of context ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-REPOR: What 's the White House 's view of the deal reached in the European Union , this week 's agreement -- does that change -- does that change the intensity of tensions in Europe ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-REPOR: I want to ask , what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's announcement ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-REPOR: Fast and Furious , the House is moving towards a vote on contempt charges . What 's the White House view on this ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-REPOR: How can you say , unequivocally , that it 's wrong and absurd ? Have you done an internal investigation ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-REPOR: Why is the whole process of resolving the issue of supply routes in such trouble at this point ? @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!SCOTT: Could it be getting tougher for White House press secretary , Jay Carney , to spin the news in favor of President Obama ? Jim , you 've got to feel for the guy . @(LAUGHTER) He took a whole load of questions like that at that White House briefing on Monday and the reporters would n't let up . @!JIM-PINKERTON-CON: They would n't and did n't let up all week . And this was all supposed to change with President Obama 's speech in Cleveland . And in a complete man-bites-dog , I have to say , news-worthy spin turn around , the liberal media clobbered the president . I know I 'm -- have a hard @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ say that . @(LAUGHTER) But when you see Jonathan Alter and Joe Klein and Dana Milbank and Melinda Henneberger pounding away on that speech -- Milbank called it a falsehood wrapped in a fallacy -- and that 's a pretty tough week . @!SCOTT: Jonathan Alter says it 's one of the worst he 's heard . @!PINKERTON: Yes . And interestingly , Mickey Kaus , who writes for " The Daily Caller , " citing a blogger named Richard Rushfield @(ph) out in L.A. , says it 's a phenomenon of Twitter . What 's happening now , when you do the same old speech over and over again , same old stuff , the media are so bored with it , even if they kind of like you , they nonetheless tear it up because they want something new to do , as opposed to simply rehash the old stuff . @!SCOTT: Jay Carney challenged reporters to put it in context . Who is minding the context ? Who gives the definition ? @!JUDY-MILLER-WRITE: The media decides the context , clearly , and Jay Carney was unhappy about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ whether the reporters ate their spinach or what 's going on , but they were acting like reporters . That what they 're supposed to be doing , asking the tough questions . And poor Mr. Carney just came in for it this weekend . @(LAUGHTER) @!SCOTT: The president , when he made " the private sector doing fine " remark , it was described as a gaffe and , in fact , he even seemed to say so in the clip we played at the top of the program . Is that kind of an easy out for what it was , and what he meant ? @!KIRSTEN-POWERS-CO: Well , that 's the question . The question is , was it a gaffe where he just meant to say , as compared to the private -- the public sector , it 's doing fine , or is this actually what President Obama thinks about the economy ? And so it 's , depending where you 're sitting , you might have a different perspective on that . But whenever a politician makes a gaff , they 're saying the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ look , it 's not the media 's job to clean up his mess . So the idea that they are being told , you know , why are n't you fixing this ? That 's not their job . @!RICHARD-GRENELL-F: I think that the context was worse for this White House . When you look at the context , this was n't a gaffe . A gaffe is when the president says a polish death camp . That 's a gaff . We know he did n't mean that . But in this context , when the economy is fine , if you read the whole context , he doubles down on this philosophical bent argument that mayors and governors are to blame and that the economy -- he gives statistics . He says the economy is 4.3 million jobs , 800,000 this year alone . This was not a gaffe . This was a well-thought out contextual argument against that private sector is fine and the public sector is what needs to grow . @!PINKERTON: I think Rick has a point and that is , the context , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ has been saying this every day for three years now , that the public sector needs to be pumped up with more money and deficits and spending and so on . Yes , if you 're reading " The New York Times , " like everybody in the Obama White House is , you 're getting a daily dose of it 's the public sector is shrinking tragically because we 're not spending enough on the government . @!MILLER: He made the point on Friday in his Friday column . @!POWERS: but I think that the issue is the president did n't mean to -- just that line was a gaffe in the sense it just gave the opponents just this perfect line to make him look like he 's out of touch . @!SCOTT: We also saw a first in the media this week , take a look . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!BRAIN-WILLIAMS-AN: In Washington today , Attorney General Eric Holder took heavy fire from Republican critics in a Senate hearing , and calls for his resignation are growing louder , but Democrats contend it 's all about politics in an @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Because after months of coverage on FOX News channel and other outlets , that was the first mention of Fast and Furious by " NBC Nightly News , " Rick . @!GRENELL: It 's remarkable , right ? This is has been a story that 's been out there a very long time and the mainstream media just has not covered it . They viewed this as a partisan issue . And it 's really been remarkable . And I think NBC admitted this week that they are behind the story . @!SCOTT: Texas Senator John Cornyn announced this week he wants him to resign . He 's not normally considered a bomb thrower , even among Republicans in the Senate , but it barely got any coverage , his request . @!POWERS: Yes . I think this is a partisan witch hunt , but that does n't mean that the media should n't be covering it . The Valerie Plame investigation was a partisan witch hunt and they covered that . They covered it quite enthusiastically , as Judy knows . @(LAUGHTER) @!MILLER: Yes , as I know . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ disinterested in this when it 's something that has been going on and gets a lot of attention in the conservative media -- and even at the " Daily Beast , " where I write , they 've actually covered it quite a lot . And that the mainstream media has mostly ignored it is a problem . @!SCOTT: Under the heading of coincidence or media manipulation , we have this . " Time " magazine ran its cover story called " We are Americans , only we just are not legal . " " The New York Times " on Sunday ran a story on frustrated Hispanic -- " The Frustrated Hispanic Electorate . " And then on Friday came the surprise announcement that the Department of Justice is going to ease up on deporting the illegal immigrant children or young people or offspring in this country . It that any coincidence ? @!MILLER: Utter coincidence . @(LAUGHTER) @!MILLER: I mean , clearly , everything that the president does from this point on that affects the Hispanic community is going to be seen in a political light . Whether @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ which in a sense instance I think -- @(CROSSTALK) @!PINKERTON: The interesting question is whether " The New York Times " and " Time " magazine had any inkling that the president would be doing this and wanted to get ahead of the story or get credit for being a part of the wave . That 's an interesting question . @!MILLER: No , you do n't think they would have reported it if they had an inkling ? @!PINKERTON: Actually , as a matter of fact , I 'm pretty sure they would n't have reported it because they wanted the scoop . They did n't want to blow up their own story by saying -- if they get a wink from their friend Eric Holder or Axelrod or any of these people , hey , the administration does something good , they want to be a part of it . @!MILLER: They wanted the story . @(LAUGHTER) @!PINKERTON: They 've got the story but now they get credit for having impact . They can say , we 're moving the needle . @!GRENELL: As a former spokesman who @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ tell you unequivocally someone briefed " Time " and " New York Times " to say this announcement is coming , if you can hold it till a certain time , we 'll give you access . That 's how it works . And in this case , absolutely , that is how it happened . @!SCOTT: That 's the inside view . Next on NEWS WATCH , are the media acting as apologists for Mr. Obama 's foreign policies . @!ANNOUNCER: Nuclear threats from Iran , civil war in Syria , pandering to Pakistan , chilled relations with Russia -- President Obama 's foreign policies causing concerns around the world . Are the media making excuses for his failures ? @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!MAHER: I would say , in a hundred years , this country will be Mormon . @(LAUGHTER) It 's a stupid religion and a stupid country . They were made for each other . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!ANNOUNCER: Is he a comedian , a political pundit or an anti-American bigot ? Bill Maher strikes again . Is it time for HBO to pull the plug ? All next , on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , U.N . officials and our secretary of state , Hillary Clinton , said Syria is getting closer to an all-out civil war . That designation would trigger the Geneva Conventions on conducting war . Also on Syria , this little items from " Time " magazine : " U.S. officials have revealed to " Time , " the Obama administration has been providing media- technology training and support to the Syrian dissidents . " Is this another high-level leak , Rick , do you think ? @!GRENELL: Let 's hope not . Certainly , there 's a pattern of leaks from this administration . It started early on in the administration . I hope it 's not . I hope it 's just individuals trying to push positive stories about the administration and maybe going too far , and now they 're going to dial that back . There needs to be a longer-view take . And as someone who was dealing with intel and talking to reporters all the time , it 's a very touchy situation . You 've got to remember what 's intel , and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be pushing positive stories and making sure that your boss looks good . It 's a difficult road . I 'm hoping it was n't planned . @!SCOTT: What about this whole flap over the attack helicopters ? Secretary of State Clinton said that Russia was sending attack helicopters to Syria . It turns out apparently they were Syria 's own helicopters that had been refurbished and sent back to Syria . Did it get the kind of coverage that it deserved ? @!POWERS: I do n't think foreign policy generally gets the coverage it deserves . You can have lots of difference theories why it is . Part of it is because I think Americans are n't interested in it generally . And add in the fact that the economy is doing bad , so they 're much more interested in what 's going on here . So I do n't think it 's unusual for them to not pay attention to even extremely important stories going on . I do n't think there 's any bias per se that is liberal or conservative . I think it 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Syria , right , Judy ? Why would the Assad regime let them come in ? @!MILLER: They 've not only let the reporters in , they 're letting the United Nations observers go to the areas where there have been massacres . And they 're almost showing them the handiwork of these terrible militias that are aligned with the administration . Almost as if they 're daring the world 's community to do something about it . I think that the Syrian regime has concluded that the world is not going to do anything about it . And this is where you really yearn for something other than what the " New Yorker " called Obama 's leading-from- behind policy . I mean , as people are being slaughtered , one wants a little more . @!SCOTT: The Syrians probably would n't be doing as well as they are without help from Iran . The Obama administration has announced , with great fanfare , the sanctions on Iran . Are they working ? @!GRENELL: It 's absolutely clear sanctions are not working . They did n't work in the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I think this is a terrible situation for the media , who keeps buying this argument that sanctions are working . And if oil sanctions worked , we would see it in two months . The nation would be crippled . And it would cause Iran to stumble quickly . @!MILLER: Oh , I think there 's a different way of working . And what -- I think the -- one of the goals of the sanctions , at this point , is to separate the Sunni business class from the Alawite minority regime so that they lose their base . That may be a longer-term strategy . The problem is people are being killed in the short-term . @!SCOTT: Jim , the economy , the number-one issue for the elections in 2012 . Europe obviously coming into play . Do you think the media are making the connection for voters between what 's going on in Europe and this country ? @!PINKERTON: Yes . I think they 're covering the Euro thing pretty heavily . I think that 's getting a lot -- and what is astonishing to me @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ were , was the Egyptian semi coupe -- @(LAUGHTER) -- and the headlines in the " Washington Post " on Friday , ruling bolsters Egypt 's old guard . If that 's not a snooze headline , what is ? @(LAUGHTER) Nobody has any idea . And the fact is the military just overturned the civilian government . And that would be news to me . But I think the problem is media , A , realized nobody cares . and they also do n't want to force the Obama administration into doing something about it . Let 's face it , we 've got enough to chew on in Syria and elsewhere . @!POWERS: It also goes against their whole narrative of -- that the Arab Spring and change is coming and this is what really was supposed to happen according to the media -- @(CROSSTALK) @!GRENELL: Iran clearly loved it , though . They 're using the time . @!SCOTT: And the president invited Hosni Mubarak to get out of office , too . We have more NEWS WATCH ahead . But if you see something that you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ newwatch@FOXnews.com Up next , Bill Maher strikes again . @!ANNOUNCER: Liberal big mouth Bill Maher slams Mormonism and our nation . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!MAHER: It 's a stupid religion and a stupid country . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!ANNOUNCER: And this is the guy that CNN lets sub-host in prime time ? And HBO paints a positive portrait of Bush 41 , but something very different and dark for Bush 43 . Details next , on NEWS WATCH . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!MAHER: Would it be better if the country got over the notion of American exceptionalism ? Oh , I think it would . I mean this is -- @(APPLAUSE) This is , by the way , this is one of the reasons why -- and people laugh at me -- but I say in a hundred years this country will be Mormon . @(LAUGHTER) It 's a stupid religion and a stupid country . They were made for each other . @(LAUGHTER) And -- @(APPLAUSE) And I tell you , one of the things Americans are going to love about Mormonism , when they find out about it , is , first of all @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ American in Mormonism . And they love the idea that Mormons embrace more than anybody , that we are the super-duper star- spangled best country ever . And if we had any flaw , it 's that we make other countries feel bad because our awesomeness is so overwhelming . @(LAUGHTER) @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!SCOTT: That 's Bill Maher , explaining his disdain for the phrase " American exceptionalism , " calling the U.S. stupid and taking a shot at the Mormon religion in the process . @!HBO-gives-him-that# @!PINKERTON: Well , maybe money . Look it , it 's telling -- there 's an audience for it , too . He 's got at least however many people in that live audience in L.A. that are clapping for him . Look , this is a -- to think that his words kind of speak for themselves , but it does say something about where you can make a living in this country . @!SCOTT: Rick , what if you replaced America , say , with Iran in that little diatribe and you started trashing Islam , for instance , in that bit @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ coming down on you . It 's ironic that he 's making these statements in Los Angeles . He 's not making these statements in Cairo or at the United Nations . To suggest that the United States is just one of 193 other countries is ludicrous . It is the idea that Americans are not exceptional , which I think will become a huge political issue this year , and I think that Bill Maher is going to be on the losing end of that . @!SCOTT: He bought a piece of the New York Mets . And " The New York Times " did a glowing story about the purchase . Rush Limbaugh , a conservative , tried to buy a piece of , I think it was the Rams , and got hammered and basically told by the NFL that he could n't do it . Why ? @!POWERS: The whole " New York Times " piece was delusional . Actually , it described a person that does not exist . Their description of Bill Maher -- @(LAUGHTER) -- has no connection to reality , including the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a little bit versus it being the central point of everything he says . And that he was a Libertarian ? @(LAUGHTER) @!GRENELL: That 's right . @!POWERS: He 's an Obama supporter , a liberal . I thought maybe they meant libertine or something . @(LAUGHTER) I was n't sure if they got off on that one . But he says the most vile things . and the idea that he would get a glowing profile is disturbing . @!SCOTT: We have to take one more back . When we come back , HBO takes a gentle look at Bush 41 and then something very different for Bush 43. @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE: What was it like to see your son elected president ? @!GEORGE-H.W-BUSH-F: Very emotional for me , very proud father . It 's the first time it 's happened I guess in the history of our country or except for the Adams . It was bind- boggling . It was enormous . And it was a source of great pride for the family . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!SCOTT: HBO 's documentary " 41 " debuted this week , 100 minutes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ news and offering no fresh insights into the life of George H.W. Bush , who celebrated his 88th birthday this week . The film by Jerry Weintraub , producer of " Ocean 's 11 " and a Bush family friend , is described as fond and friendly , except the part where he talks about the press . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!BUSH: I know I am going to sound like I 'm bashing the press but there was almost unanimity in the press corps that I should loose and that they were for him and that makes a huge difference . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!SCOTT: Of course , FOX News was not around back then to add balance to the coverage . @!HBO-received-mostl# Also , this week , it was revealed that the HBO hit series " Game of Thrones " used a bust of George W. Bush in a scene with decapitated heads . Why ? Producers say they needed a head and that was just lying around if you believe that . Both HBO and the producers of the series apologized , claiming the spiked head of our former president was not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ WATCH . Thanks to our Jim Pinkerton , Judy Miller , Kirsten Powers and Rick Grenell . I 'm Jon Scott . Thanks for watching . We 'll see you next week . '

@@4104241 @!TERRY-GROSS: This is FRESH AIR . I 'm Terry Gross . World War I resulted in unimaginable carnage . My guest , Adam Hochschild , explains why in his book " To End All Wars , " which was recently published in paperback . He also writes about the men and women who thought the war was madness : the war resistors , the men who refused the draft and the soldiers who refused to fight . The book focuses on England . Our book critic , Maureen Corrigan , says : Hochschild makes a reader feel anew the shock of modern technological warfare . He renders the pacifist tales no less compelling than those of the soldiers in the trenches . He also enlarges on the question : What does it take for a person to shake off the shackles of conventional wisdom and think for him or herself ? What punishments does society mete out ? What apologies does posterity sometimes offer to those courageous enough to see things differently ? @!ADAM-HOCHSCHILD: Hochschild 's other books include " King Leopold 's Ghost " and " Bury the Chains . " We spoke last year , when the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ published . Adam Hochschild , welcome back to FRESH AIR . Let 's start with the human cost of World War I. Well , it was enormous , Terry , more than nine million military dead , probably between 10 and 12 million civilian dead , although we 'll never know that number with any precision . And in addition , 21 million soldiers wounded , and many of them were permanently missing , you know , arms , legs , hands , genitals or else , you know , driven mad by shell shock . So that , I think , is the first , most direct human cost . But there was also a human cost in a larger sense in that I think the war remade the world for the worse in every conceivable way . It ignited the Russian revolution . It laid the ground for Nazism , and made the Second World War almost certain . It 's pretty hard to imagine the Second World War without the first . @!TERRY-GROSS: You write that World War I was astonishingly lethal for officers , for the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Why was that ? @!ADAM-HOCHSCHILD: Well , this is one of the many things that has long fascinated me about the war . You know , if you look at the wars that our country has been involved in in recent years - Vietnam , Afghanistan , Iraq - it 's the poor who 've done most of the dying . And usually , throughout history , you know , elites are very good at getting somebody else to do the dying for them . But in the First World War , it was different . It was different because it was the tradition in most of the major countries for upper-class young men to have military careers , and then it became those young captains and lieutenants who led their men out of the trenches and into a hail of machine-gun fire . And , of course , they were conveniently distinguished for enemy sharpshooters , because officers uniforms were different from ordinary soldiers uniforms . They carried pistols instead of rifles , and so forth . And the toll was just colossal . For example , men @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ killed . @!TERRY-GROSS: That 's amazing . That 's an amazing statistic . @!ADAM-HOCHSCHILD: And , you know , people who waged the war , the prime ministers and Cabinet ministers and so forth , the prime minister of England , Herbert Asquith , lost a son . The German chancellor lost a son . The chief to the British general staff on the western front lost two sons . His counterpart in the French army lost three sons . You know , the list could go on . @!TERRY-GROSS: You write that the war was n't what soldiers or officers were expecting . They were expecting magnificent displays of gallantry , discipline and determination . What were they expecting World War I to be ? @!ADAM-HOCHSCHILD: Well , you know , I think most of them were expecting it to be like the colonial wars because this is what the armies of England , France and Germany had fought in recent decades , leading up to the war . Europe had been at peace for some 40 years or so , and the wars had taken place by European @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ know , putting down rebellions on the frontier in British India , conquering new territories in Africa , putting down rebellions against the British and French and German colonial rule . And , you know , these Africans and Asians were very poorly armed . It was the British , the French and the Germans who had the machine guns , the repeating rifles and so forth . And so war , in the minds of these Army officers at the beginning of 1914 was a matter where you went off to a distant , exotic place , you came home covered with glory , you got medals and promotions , and you were not likely to be killed . And nobody was really prepared for the other side also having machine guns , repeating rifles , modern weaponry . @!TERRY-GROSS: World War I is famous , among other things , for its trench warfare , where there was literally a front line and trenches of French and British on one side and Germans on the other . How did it become this type of trench warfare where nobody could @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this took everybody by surprise . And there 's a scholar who actually searched through a lot of British army reports and came up with some extraordinary quotes from generals writing to each other in the first year or two of the war , saying this war is not normal . And maybe soon we 'll get to normal conditions , but this is definitely very , very abnormal . And what they were referring to was that the armies were stuck in place because this system of trenches facing each other , really for some three years , they barely moved more than a few miles in each direction . In 1915 , for example , the Allies launched a number of major attacks . There were probably close to a million casualties on both sides . During the course of the year , the allies gained exactly seven square miles of territory , and the trenches evolved because the defensive weapons of the war - barbed wire an entrenched machine-gun nest and a trench in the ground - were so much stronger than the offensive weapons of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ come out of your trench , move forward over open ground where you 're exposed to enemy fire . And this was something nobody had planned for , even though they could have looked at other recent wars in history . You know , there was trench warfare at the end of the American Civil War , for example , around Richmond in Virginia . But they chose not to do that because they wanted to imagine glorious cavalry charges and the like . And , of course , there were none of those glorious cavalry charges . @!TERRY-GROSS: What were some of the worst horrors of trench warfare ? @!ADAM-HOCHSCHILD: Well , think about living underground for month after month after month . One problem , of course , is that the water table in most of Western Europe - at least where the fighting was - is fairly close to the surface of the ground . In parts of Belgium , the water table is only about two or three feet below ground . So this meant that a lot of the time , the soldiers on each @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . You know , they rigged up pumps and so on to try to pump the water out of the trenches , but they were hopeless , especially when it rained . There was an enormous profusion of rats . There was the , you know , dreaded trench foot , where , you know , if you go in wet socks and leggings , you know , week after week , your feet begin to wither and rot . And it was a matter of essentially living underground - not a very pleasant place to live . @!TERRY-GROSS: Now , you were describing how difficult it was to launch an offensive during trench warfare , because you 'd have to march into machine-gun fire from the enemy . And journalist Philip Gibbs , you quote him in your book , and he was watching German soldiers advance . And he says he watched them advance toward our men , shoulder to shoulder , like a solid bar . It was sheer suicide . They were tall men and did not falter as they came forward . They walked like @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ describing them just marching into machine-gun fire . And there were so many instances like this during World War I , where you 're just , like , marching into machine-gun fire . You 're absolutely going to die . @!ADAM-HOCHSCHILD: And the really peculiar thing about that quote from Gibbs is that he wrote this describing a battle that was taking place after the war had been going for two years . And you would have thought that both sides would have learned at that point that if you go forward in a big phalanx while enemy machine guns , you know , have not been put out of action , you 're just going to get mowed down . But the generals did not seem to want to learn that lesson . They finally did by the last year of the war . But why did it take three years ? @!TERRY-GROSS: World War I is considered the first modern war in the sense that you have modern technology . You have machine guns . You have tanks toward the end of the war . You have mustard @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ say the Germans used most effectively . Who created barbed wire , and how did the Germans use it ? @!ADAM-HOCHSCHILD: Well , barbed wire was actually invented by an Illinois farmer in the late 1800s , and it was used for cattle fencing . I believe the first time it was used in war - although not widely - was in the Boer War , which was of course some 15 years before the First World War . But once the armies got dug into these trenches in France and Belgium , the immediately found that barbed wire strengthened those defenses incredibly , and the Germans really used it the most effectively . They would dig a very wide depression in the ground , maybe , you know , 30-feet wide , six feet deep , fill it with tangles of barbed wire . And imagine yourself a British or French soldier trying to cross , you know , a ditch full of wire like that that goes on for miles to each side - almost impossible to do . The British and French , of course , erected @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ because it was very difficult to destroy with artillery fire . You had to cut your way through it with wire clippers . It was n't really until the tank came along that they found something that could easily penetrate barbed wire . @!TERRY-GROSS: More than 20,000 British men of military age refused the draft during the course of the war . That 's really a lot of people . Did England have anything like the American conscientious objector status , where you could decline serving if you could prove that it violated your religious practices ? @!ADAM-HOCHSCHILD: They did . They actually had a fairly broad conscientious objector law , but many people were denied that status . And then even if you got the status , many people , as a matter of principle , refused to do the alternative service that was offered for conscientious objectors , which usually meant driving an ambulance at the front or working in a munitions factory or something like that . And as a result of those refusals , more than 6,000 young men in Britain went to prison . It @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that point in time in a Western democracy . And they were a remarkable group of people . Happily , for my purposes as a writer , they wrote letters . They kept diaries . They wrote memoirs , and they had interesting relationships with people on the outside , friends and family members who often felt differently about the war and sometimes were taking part in the war . @!TERRY-GROSS: If you had to , you know , generalize , what were some of the reasons that the war resistors were willing to be in prison rather than even serving in alternate service ? @!ADAM-HOCHSCHILD: And keep in mind also that they were imprisoned under very harsh conditions : a bare-bones diet , the rule of silence , where you were not allowed to talk to anybody . Prisons were extremely cold because there was a shortage of coal for heating , and of course the prisons were last in line to get that . The reasons that they refused were a mixture of religious and political . A majority of people who in Britain who applied for conscientious @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ them being Quakers . And a majority also cited political convictions , most of them being international socialists who felt like they did n't want to make war on their fellow socialists . And I think all of them , you know , felt this war was pointless . It was not being fought for any great moral purpose . Britain and France could not claim that they were fighting for democracy , when they were colonial empires and when their principal ally was Tsarist Russia , which was the last absolute monarchy in Europe . So I think these were some of the things that led these - this very brave group of people to refuse service and to go to prison . @!TERRY-GROSS: But Germany had declared war on France . So , you know , what do you do after that ? @!ADAM-HOCHSCHILD: Well , I think this is one of the things that makes it morally complicated . Germany declared war on France and Belgium and invaded both of those countries , and I think you can understand why , you know , French and Belgian @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ indeed , the overwhelming majority did want to do . But many people in England felt this should not be our fight . They thought this is going to be a very destructive war . We were not attacked . In fact , Germany went out of its way not to attack England at the beginning of the war . They did n't want British participation in the war . They thought Britain was not going to come in . They were alarmed and disappointed when it did . And , you know , it 's true that German troops marched across neutral Belgium in their attack on France , but a few months later , British troops marched across a neutral country , China , in their attack on a German colony on China . So - and then of course all of the winning countries rather cynically divided up the territory of the losers when the war 's end came . So nobody really came out of this with very clean hands , even though , as you say , Germany really did start the war . @!TERRY-GROSS: @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " To End All Wars , " about World War I. We 'll talk more after a break . This is FRESH AIR . @(SOUNDBITE-OF-MUSIC @!TERRY-GROSS: If you 're just joining us , my guest is Adam Hochschild . He 's a journalist whose new book is called " To End All Wars . " It 's about World War I , but it 's about the British during World War I and how England was divided between those who thought the war should be fought , that it was a just cause , and those who opposed the war . You write about some of the families that were divided over the war . One of the famous families was the Pankhurst family , a family of family suffragists . And why do n't you describe the split in the Pankhurst family . @!ADAM-HOCHSCHILD: The Pankhursts were the leaders of the most militant wing of the British women 's suffrage movement , fighting before the war for the right to vote for women in England . Emmeline Pankhurst , the mother , and two of her daughters , Christabel @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . On the eve of the war , the mother , Emmeline , had been jailed for literally throwing a rock through the window of 10 Downing Street , the prime minister 's residence . And she and her followers cut telephone and telegraph wires , put bombs in mailboxes , destroyed buildings , threw rocks through the windows of London clubs , and so forth . However , the moment the war began , she - and she was actually a fugitive from justice at that point , hiding out in France , because she did n't want to serve her prison sentence for throwing this rock - she called a halt to all of her political activities , and she and her older daughter Christabel put themselves at the service of the British government for the duration of the war . The government was delighted to have them . It sent them on speaking tours of the British Isles , of the United States . It even sent Emmeline to Russia at one point to try to rally Russian women to war effort . Meanwhile , her other @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ radical in her politics , came out strongly against the war , published the leading anti-war periodical of that period , repeatedly spoke against the war , supported conscientious objectors and resistors , published some of the most important pieces of anti-war testimony from people in the army in her publication , which was shut down a couple of times by the government during the war . @!TERRY-GROSS: And Christabel , one of the daughters , says we ca n't discuss votes for women now . We have to mobilize women for the economy in order to free men for the front . So was the whole women 's suffrage movement basically put on hold during the war ? @!ADAM-HOCHSCHILD: Well , certainly that part of it which Emmeline Pankhurst had been leading was . The women 's suffrage movement , like many progressive movements of the day , was quite divided over the war because there were a strong minority of suffragettes who supported Sylvia Pankhurst 's position , who , you know , who thought the war was madness and did not want to support it . The @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ like the majority of most other people in England , did go along with the war effort . @!TERRY-GROSS: So let 's look at another family divided by the war . There 's Charlotte Despard , who 's a suffragist , pacifist , communist . She co-founds the women 's peace crusade . But her brother is Field Marshal Sir John French , commander-in-chief on the western front . What happened to their relationship when he 's helping lead the war , and she 's opposing it ? @!ADAM-HOCHSCHILD: An extraordinary relationship , and they were both such colorful people who were sort of archetypes of what they stood for . Sir John French , the brother , had been all his life in the army . You know , he had the moustache , the military bearing . Some people say he was the model in the Gilbert and Sullivan song for the model of a very modern major general . And he 'd been a cavalry officer , and so forth . His sister had been an ardent proponent of every progressive cause before the war : independence @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to jail four different times in the women 's suffrage battle , strongly opposed the war , wrote the bestselling anti-war pamphlet , traveled up and down England speaking against the war , visiting conscientious objectors families to try to keep their spirits up . Interestingly , the brother and sister remained fond of each other , quite close to each other , saw each other a number of times during the war . They stopped speaking only when , in 1918 , the British government sent him to Ireland as viceroy to suppress the nationalist revolt breaking out against British rule . She went to Ireland to work for the IRA . At that point , they stopped speaking , but not until then . @!TERRY-GROSS: We 'll continue the interview with Adam Hochschild in the second half of the show . His book is called " To End All Wars : A Story of Loyalty and Rebellion , 1914-1918 " was published in paperback last month . I 'm Terry Gross , and this is FRESH AIR . @(SOUNDBITE-OF-MUSIC @!TERRY-GROSS: This is FRESH AIR . I 'm Terry @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , " To End All Wars , " is about World War I. Focused on England , it describes why this first example of modern technological warfare resulted in such carnage , taking the lives of more than nine million soldiers and 10 to 12 million civilians . The book also focuses on the war resisters who thought the war was madness . After the Battle of the Somme , which I believe was like the biggest , most devastating battle of the war with enormous casualties , a movie was made called " Battle of the Somme " and you describe this as one of the earliest and most influential propaganda films of all time . Have you seen the film ? @!ADAM-HOCHSCHILD: I have seen the film . And the government took a remarkable gamble , which was this : the Battle of the Somme as I think many of your listeners will know happened in the middle of 1916 . It went on for three or four months . It resulted in more than 125,000 British dead , some 20,000 of whom were killed on the first @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was about 10 miles at the widest point , a few miles at other points and almost nothing at various other points on the line . So a huge amount of bloodshed for nothing . But how do you present this to the British public ? Well , early on while the battle was still raging , the government decided we 're going to send film crews there , record everything , film everything and put together a film which they did , which came out only a month or two into the battle . So while the later stages of the battle were still going on , this film was being shown in Britain and it was estimated it was actually seen by more than half the population of the British Isles . Now it 's sanitized some things when it showed wounded soldiers for example , it was the walking wounded usually and the lightly wounded . But it did show some dead bodies . It did show soldiers at the front doing all kinds of other things , firing artillery pieces , cooking their meals , receiving @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the government took a gamble that showing a certain amount of the nitty-gritty of the real war would make people more closely identify with the soldiers rather than repulse them , and they were right . And I think this to me shows one of the terrible things that happen in all wars , which is that as the suffering mounts , as the death toll mounts , as the horrors that soldiers have to endure mounts , there is a powerful , powerful need among people at home , among their families , to feel that they are suffering and dying for something worthwhile . And therefore , in a way , showing graphic images of the suffering does not necessarily turn people against a war . In fact , usually it doesn't. @!TERRY-GROSS: And you refer to this in the book , you can imagine all these families going to see this movie looking for their loved ones in the battle . @!ADAM-HOCHSCHILD: Right . Because there were hundreds and hundreds of soldiers faces shown on screen . Sometimes they would indentify units by name and people must @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ would see someone they loved and see him , you know , not on a stretcher or a dead body but , you know , walking around and looking well . @!TERRY-GROSS: Now this was made in 1916 , which is very early in the history . It 's like the very beginning of the history of filmmaking . Would you describe a little bit what the film looks like and what the quality of the filmmaking is ? @!ADAM-HOCHSCHILD: It 's better than I would have expected actually from that period . It 's a silent movie , of course . It 's black and white . It flickers a bit , you know , the way early films like the early Charlie Chaplin films do and so forth . But it 's pretty clear , and you can , you know , make out very well what you 're seeing . And then there are these titles that come on the screen periodically just to tell you what 's coming up , and sort of to tell you how to feel about it . Sometimes they 're martial @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Bombardment of German Trenches . Sometimes they 're sentimental . One title says : The Manchesters pet dog fell with his master charging Dantzig Alley . The Manchesters were a regiment . And it shows you , you know , a dead body of a soldier and a dog , but the title has sort of framed it for you , so you should see this as something poignant . Then there 's one title before , you see some wounded soldiers showing wounded awaiting attention , showing how quickly the wounded are attended to . Well , that was very much a sanitizing thing because one of the awful things about the Battle of the Somme was that of the 120,000 men who climbed out of the trench on the first day thousands upon thousands of them were wounded . And many of them were stuck in shell holes in the middle of no man 's land and medics could n't get to them because of the heavy shellfire and machine gun fire . And they died alone out after , you know , being out there two , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ could hear them moaning . And then when they were , you know , found often days or weeks later their fellow soldiers would find that these guys had wrapped themselves up in their ponchos and sometimes taking out their Bibles , you know , to die alone . So the film sanitized all that . @!TERRY-GROSS: Even though the film sanitized the Battle of the Somme are there things that you learned from being able to see an actual document of the battle ? @!ADAM-HOCHSCHILD: Yes . Very much so I think . And I tried to watch as much documentary footage of the war as I could find , to look at lots of photographs because , you know , they 're all kinds of ways in which when you 're writing about something you really want to immerse yourself in that place in time as much as you can . I also went to some of these battlefields because I always love to see the places where the history that I 'm writing about took place , and you learned something there too . One thing that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ called High Wood because one of the people that I quote in the book is an infantry officer who gives a dramatic description at one point of a very small cavalry detachment when they were having trouble taking the German position . A small cavalry detachment charged up the hill , disappeared over the brow of the hill and then were never seen again . So I thought could I find this hill ? Well , I went looking for it . I found it . What you realize when you 're there is that it 's not something which I walking around or you walking around today would describe as a hill . It 's , you can barely see the slope in the ground and then that makes me realize that all these descriptions you read from the war of capturing hilltops and ridges and crests and so on are written from the point of view of somebody who 's lying on the ground trying to stay underneath all those bullets . Just it 's a useful reminder when you go to the place . @!TERRY-GROSS: There were @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 1917 . Did something happen to change popular opinion after a couple of years of war ? @!ADAM-HOCHSCHILD: Well , I think the anti-war movement did seem to be gaining power in 1917 which was , of course , the third full year of the war . And the war had been , you know , occupied half of 1914 as well . Anti-war sentiment was gaining ground because people saw enormous , enormous battles that seemed to be fought for nothing . In 1917 , just as the Battle of the Somme had been the big thing in 1916 , there was another enormous battle , Passchendaele which was very similar . You know , months and months of fighting for a tiny bit of ground gained . And also there was a defection in late 1917 from a key figure in the British establishment , Lord Lansdowne , the former foreign minister . He 'd actually presided over the making of the informal agreement with France before the war which had led British troops to be engaged there . And he wrote a letter to the editor of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ so it had to appear in another paper - saying it 's time to think about a negotiated peace . And the fact that someone high in the establishment was saying this was a new thing . So the anti-war movement definitely gained power during that year . Then what happened was in early 1918 , the Germans launched an enormous offensive which actually by using new tactics instead of this business of advancing in phalanx they advanced in sort of small detachments of storm troopers . By using these new tactics they actually broke through the trenches for the first time , gained an enormous amount of ground . And this sense of urgency that the decisive battle of the war was at hand actually put a damper on the anti-war movement . And even people who had deserted the army ... @!TERRY-GROSS: Because they thought they were maybe close to winning or ? @!ADAM-HOCHSCHILD: Well , because ... @!TERRY-GROSS: Or close to losing ? @!ADAM-HOCHSCHILD: Close to one or the other . But their - if you read the government intelligence reports on the dissidents of that period @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ kind of upsurge of intelligence agents saying now the workers are not protesting anymore . You know , there was a case in Scotland of a deserter who turned himself in so that he could fight against the new German offensive . Tragically , exactly the same thing happened in Germany . There had been a rash of strikes in munitions factories at the beginning of 1918 and , you know , that could have been the beginnings of an anti-war movement in Germany . There too once this enormous new offensive began and it seemed like the decisive battle of the war was at hand most of that evaporated . @!TERRY-GROSS: If you 're just joining us , my guest is Adam Hochschild and we 're talking about his book " To End All Wars , " which is about World War I. Let 's take a short break here then we 'll talk some more . This is FRESH AIR . @(SOUNDBITE-OF-MUSIC @!TERRY-GROSS: If you 're just joining us , my guest is Adam Hochschild . He 's a journalist whose new book is called " To End @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , but it 's about the British during World War I and how England was divided between those who thought the war should be fought , that it was a just cause and those who opposed the war . You know , in describing resistance to the war and people who refused to enlist and paid the consequences , you also write about men at the front who were in the army and then they wanted out ; they could n't do it anymore . And some of them were executed . Would you describe what happened to soldiers who felt they could no longer participate in the war ? @!ADAM-HOCHSCHILD: Well , one of the fascinating controversies of recent years has been this : during the First World War , there were more than 300 British soldiers who were executed for desertion , laying down arms in the face of the enemy , running away in the face of an enemy attack and so on . Which is actually several times the number of German soldiers who were executed for similar offenses during the war . The Germans became @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . And there 's been a long battle in England in recent decades about getting posthumous pardons for these men . And , you know , with anti-war people saying well , anybody would deserted or laid down arms in the face of the enemy was making the right decision for the time . Plus , it 's obvious a lot of these men were shell-shocked and really did n't know what they were doing . Well , I zero in on one case because there was an extraordinary witness . There was a soldier named Albert Rochester who had been a labor union activist and a journalist for his union newspaper before the war . He was a railway signalman and he wrote for the railway union 's newspaper . He enlisted at the beginning of the war . Even though he was in the army he had not lost his politics . And at one point he wrote a letter to the editor of the London Daily Mail complaining that every British officer at the front in France had a personal servant . And he said , you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ horses and make their own tea . And if we eliminated all these personal servants we 'd have 60,000 more men for the war effort and get this terrible war over with more quickly . For writing that letter he was court-martialed and sent to a military prison . In that prison he found himself sharing a cell one night with three men who had been sentenced to death for laying down arms in the face of the enemy and running away . He was very moved by their stories . He found that they were working-class men like himself , miners - two minors and a steel worker - and then they were taken off after one night together to another cell and they were hoping for pardons . But the next day Rochester himself found himself detailed for his work as a military prisoner to go and carry three heavy posts up a hill and dig three holes in the ground . And he realized these were the posts that these three guys were going to be tied to when they were shot by a firing squad , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ help to clean up everything afterwards . He was deeply seared by this experience , wrote a beautifully moving , horrible account of it that was published after the war , made common cause with a war resistor who had spent the war in prison to try to get a government investigation of the case opened , failed in doing that , and unfortunately died at a quite young age in the 1920s . But it was extraordinary to find somebody like that as an eyewitness to such an event . @!TERRY-GROSS: Yeah , that really is extraordinary . In 1990 , a citizen 's group was founded called Shot at Dawn , and they demanded a posthumous pardon for those resisters who were executed during World War I. And the British government gave a blanket pardon to more than 300 executed World War I soldiers . This was in 2006 . Was that a widely publicized event in England ? Was that a big deal in England in 2006 ? @!ADAM-HOCHSCHILD: It was quite a big deal , because there had been a controversy over it for some years @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ executed soldiers , a couple of plays . The Army got a retired Army officer to co-author a book with someone else about these cases saying , well , you know , given the standards of the time when capital punishment was routine , you know , these cases were fairly judged and there should be no pardons . And then finally , the men were pardoned , which I think it was , in a way , a sort of symbolic gesture of the government exceeding to the public mood in England , which I think now is one that considers this war a needless tragedy that should not have been fought . @!TERRY-GROSS: And another way that we 're literally still dealing with the consequences of World War I - and this is just a very tangible thing - there are still mines left over from that war that continue to kill people . @!ADAM-HOCHSCHILD: That 's right . On the western front , which was not far from being the only front in the war , but it was the one that was the most intensively fought @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ than 700 million artillery and mortar rounds fired in four-and-a-half years . And it 's estimated that about 15 percent of them were duds . You know , they did n't go off when they hit . Instead , they buried themselves deep in the ground . And they are going off all the time today . You know , somebody builds a fire in a forest on a camping trip or something , and it burns down and then sets off a buried artillery shell , you know , that is sitting underneath there . When certain kinds of construction projects are done - in the early 1990s , there were 36 people killed in one year in France when they did the excavation for the new high-speed rail line that goes from Paris to the Channel Tunnel . And there have been more than 600 French bomb disposal experts - you know , who are specialists in finding and defusing these bombs - killed since 1945 . Sometimes they find World War II bombs that did n't go off , sometimes even from the Franco-Prussian war , because @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ But the vast majority of this unexploded ordinance is from the First World War . You see tractors with armor plate underneath the seats . You see yellow warning signs telling you to keep away from certain patches of forest . @!TERRY-GROSS: Did you visit the Somme , the area of the most horrendous battle of World War I ? @!ADAM-HOCHSCHILD: I certainly did , and tried to find where some of the old trenches were , found what any visitor to that part of France , or the front as it goes through Belgium , finds is that it 's marked by cemeteries . Everywhere you go , you know , you go to an area like the Somme or Passchendaele in Belgium or Verdun in France where there were some of the greatest fighting . You stand on the hilltop , and you 'll see four , five , six cemeteries in all directions . And these are enormous places with five , 10,000 graves in them . Most of them , really , very well-maintained - flowers , people leaving little knickknacks sometimes , photographs of family @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , you know , a great uncle who died long ago and they want to leave a picture of their family today . I read through comments in the visitor 's book . Some of them are the sort of sentimental things you would most expect to find at a place like this , you know , thanks for your sacrifice and so forth . But at one of these beautiful little cemeteries , I saw someone who 'd written in the visitor 's book : Never again . And that 's certainly my feeling , as well . @!TERRY-GROSS: Well Adam Hochschild , I want to thank you so much for talking with us. @!ADAM-HOCHSCHILD: Well , it 's been a pleasure . @!TERRY-GROSS: Adam Hochschild 's book " To End All Wars " was published in paperback last month . You can read an excerpt on our website , freshair.npr.org . Our interview was recorded last year after the book was published in hardcover . This is FRESH AIR . '

@@4122841 @!DAVID-MUIR# @(Off-camera) We 're gon na turn now to a major case still in the headlines tonight , a doctor accused of losing it . Authorities say he 's not the doctor patients fell in love with , not at home anyway . Is he suffering from his own sort of affliction , a kind of serial rage ? Tonight , see the tapes for yourself . His family-friendly TV commercials and the tapes his wife recorded away from the office . Here 's my co-anchor Elizabeth Vargas. @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) Losing it at 30,000 feet is n't pretty . Like these twin sisters settling a family dispute in the aisles of coach class . @!PASSENGER# @(Inaudible) @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) Or these dudes duking it out in the not-so-friendly skies earlier this year . But last winter , when Houstonians heard the news that a local doctor had allegedly used his surgically trained hands to choke a flight attendant , you might have to excuse them if they thought , " Oh no , not again . " You see , this is n't just any doctor . His name is Michael Brown . @!ROBERT-HANTMAN# Guys , no pictures . This @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ he 's had more appointments in courtrooms than operating rooms . @!WENDY-BURGOWER# I personally believe that he never sees himself as anything but a victim and that he feels anyone that disagrees with him must be punished , and he 's a very angry man . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) At one time , Michael Brown was one of America 's leading hand surgeons , an innovator in a treatment for carpal tunnel syndrome , with a taste for finer things . For the doctor , that meant a life of Texas excess and exes . He 'd already been through two wives by the time he met 20-year-old Darlina in 1993. @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Off-camera) What was it about him that did captivate you ? @!DARLINA-BARONE# He was very sweet , just very attentive to me , treated me like a princess in the beginning . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Off-camera) Did he buy you gifts ? @!DARLINA-BARONE# Yeah , he absolutely spoiled me in the beginning . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) After two weeks , they were living together , married just about a year later , though it almost did n't happen except for Darlina 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , and it was my fault , she decided on , on the wedding day . No . I do n't wan na get married , and I thought it was the jitters . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) To the outside world , Brown looked like a big-hearted healer . His TV commercials brought patients from around the nation to his Houston offices . He had fame . He had fortune . @!MICHAEL-BROWN# I personally train the doctors in the Brown procedure , and the Brown hand Center will care for you just as I care for my own family . @!SOPHIE# Daddy 's baby girl . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) But Darlina says she soon found out how Brown treated his actual family . @!DARLINA-BARONE# He used to be very , very sweet , very attentive to my needs , very , I mean , just abnormally sweet to me at all times . And then we get married , and things change . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Off-camera) It was on the honeymoon that you saw the first example of Mike and his temper ? @!DARLINA-BARONE# We fought the entire time . We went to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is gorgeous . However , we fought every single day . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) Back home , Darlina says her husband 's volcanic tempter often erupted when she would go out clubbing with her girlfriends , suspecting she was cheating , especially when he drank . Add to that volatile mix , the doctor 's beloved gun collection . Darlina was frightened . And after an early separation , she says things only got worse . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Off-camera) So what happened when you moved back in ? @!DARLINA-BARONE# Oh , that 's when the abuse started . He slapped me , he pushed me , he grabbed my hair , hit my head up against the wall . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Off-camera) Why did you stay in that house ? @!DARLINA-BARONE# He mentally brainwashed me . If I , if I told him that I was gon na leave , he 'd threaten me. @!LINDA-HUNNICUTT# He would talk down to her . She was n't good . She never did anything right . She could n't cook . I 've been over there when he 's , " Why did you fix this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that to a person , you belittle them , and it 's mental abuse . @!DARLINA-BARONE# I did n't think anybody would believe me because he is the one that had all the money . He 's the one that had all the power . @!DOCTOR-JANET-TAYLO# They 're in love . They feel like they can change the person , and the abuser makes the woman feel like it 's her fault . And if you feel guilty and you feel vulnerable and you feel like it 's something you 've done , then there is this fear about leaving . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) By the year 2000 , Darlina and Dr. Brown were still a couple with one baby and another on the way . Darlina figured that being pregnant , she 'd get a break from her husband 's scalding rage . She figured wrong . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Off-camera) So what happened toward the end of your pregnancy , the incident that finally blew the lid off ? @!DARLINA-BARONE# I 'm watching a show on TV at about 10:00 , and here he comes into the door . Mike comes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't love him . And I go into the kitchen , and I grabbed the phone , like I always did , to call my mom . And he grabs the phone from me and starts beating me over the head with the phone . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) She claims he grabbed her by the hair , dragged her into the bedroom . @!DARLINA-BARONE# We had a four-poster bed . And as I saw the bed post on the floor and I 'm like , " Oh , no , this is gon na be bad . " And , I was so used to it , though . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Off-camera) Really ? @!DARLINA-BARONE# Yeah . I was used to it , which is just crazy . But the next thing I know , I 'm on the ground , and he is sitting on my stomach , being seven months pregnant , telling me that I 'm effing not going to have that baby . He took the bed posts and was just beating me over the back with the bed post . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) She managed to escape , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Luckily , he missed . She was able to call 9-1-1. @!DARLINA-BARONE# I ca n't even open my right eye . I 'm bleeding . I 'm seven months pregnant . @!LINDA-HUNNICUTT# Her face was all swollen . Her mouth was huge and where he beat her on her head . They had the , the long bed posts that are on their bed , had this huge bed post mark , I 'm sorry , all the way down her back . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) Soon after , Dr. Brown was arrested . This is police video right after Dr. Brown was taken into custody . @!POLICE-OFFICER# He 's going nuts . We 're probably gon na have to restrain him further . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) Smashing his head against the squad car window . @!DARLINA-BARONE# @(Voiceover) The very last abuse he did on me made it totally public . It was in the news , and I was in the hospital for three days and , at that time , I felt that , you know what , everybody knows about it , this is my , this is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ assault , and Darlina filed for divorce . As the separate proceedings worked their way through the courts , evidence turned up , showing Dr. Brown 's alleged behavior going from the belligerent to the bizarre . @!MICHAEL-BROWN# we put a gun to our head to get attention , maybe a little bit . But we know it 's you . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) That 's Dr. Brown recorded on his own video camera in 2001 . Why is he holding a gun to his own head ? He claimed he was simply working on a Hollywood script . @!MICHAEL-BROWN# People that do commit suicide , they do n't do it to hurt people or because they wan na do it or because they 're cowards . They do it because they are being tortured in agony , and that 's , that 's the only way to stop the pain . @!DARLINA-BARONE# @(Voiceover) But Darlina does n't buy it . She says it 's evidence of a man on the edge . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Off-camera) So that scene we see on this videotape was actually what you were seeing on a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Off-camera) This , the prominent Houston doctor was what , he was really doing behind closed doors ? @!DARLINA-BARONE# Yes . Pretty scary . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) Dr. Brown claims he acted in self-defense the night he was arrested , but the jury does n't believe him . Darlina won a $3 million divorce settlement . @!DARLINA-BARONE# He ca n't hurt me this time ' cause everybody knows . @!BRIAN-WISE# if you had to describe Mike in one word , it would probably be misunderstood . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) Brown 's lawyer is Brian Weiss. @!BRIAN-WISE# It was his continuing bad choice in women , particularly a profile , if you will , of the same woman who have repeatedly show up in his life , somebody looking to get paid , somebody who viewed Mike as an atm . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) Though he turned down our request for an interview , Dr. Brown did speak in this deposition. @!MICHAEL-BROWN# Darlina lied on the witness stand . @!LAWYER# Uh-huh . @!MICHAEL-BROWN# Her mother lied on the witness stand . The day of the trial and the jury believed Darlina and not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ contest to aggravated assault charges in exchange for 10 years probation and set off to resume his life . But the doctor 's inner demons would not be silenced . There would soon be a new wife , new accusations , more sensational headlines and another judgment day in court . @!WENDY-BURGOWER# He went into a rage and grabbed her . @!NATHAN-HENNIGAN# He is a dangerous man , and I wanted him to be held accountable for what he did this time . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) Stay with us. @!MICHAEL-BROWN# Look at my face . See a man driven to insanity . @!MICHAEL-BROWN# Oh , you ride your horsy ? @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) Dr. Michael Brown looks anything but the face of rage in this home video with his children , following his divorce from Darlina. @!MICHAEL-BROWN# Say , " Hi , Kevin . " @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) Maybe that 's why all the sensational publicity surrounding his aggravated assault case did n't ruin his practice . @!BRIAN-WISE# The caring father , the passionate CEO , somebody who has done so much good for so many people . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) Dr. Brown 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ his personal controversy . After his 2001 divorce , Brown 's business thrives , several new offices open . He 's got a private plane , new homes and things were going great . That is until he was called before the Texas board of medicine . It seems the private plane was n't the only way the good doctor was getting high . He certainly seem to have a problem with cocaine , and that 's how he ultimately lost his license . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) Even though his license was revoked , Brown continued to live a charmed life . @!MICHAEL-BROWN# My baby got me a king throne chair . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) There was a new beautiful wife , Rachel , and a new family and more children . Dr. Brown polished his image , distributing these photos from a self-published book , showcasing swanky parties , social events with luminaries like President Bush . Brown even won a humanitarian award . But , once again , behind the scenes , the picture-perfect marriage was collapsing . @!DOCTOR-JANET-TAYLO# It sounds like he , there 's an aspect of his @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ able to , in spite of everything that he has to lose , express himself in whatever way he wants to . There 's something about the way his personality functions that he continues to just blame and react and hurt people , and he finds that acceptable . @!MICHAEL-BROWN# You 're out of your ( censored by network ) mind . They did not . It cost $50,000 since you called the ( censored by network ) police , Rachel . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) Rachel recorded these phone calls from Michael in late 2011. @!MICHAEL-BROWN# I am not the enemy , Rachel . @!RACHEL-BROWN# You attacked me , Michael . @!MICHAEL-BROWN# You ( censored by network ) attacked me. @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) Rachel , who declined to do an interview with " 20/20 , " wanted proof that Dr. Brown was out of control . @!MICHAEL-BROWN# Would you ask yourself that , you stupid ( censored by network ) ? ( Censored by network ) . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) Those recordings became evidence after Rachel accused Brown of twisting her arm , as if he meant to break it . Prosecutors charged @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ offender , and thought he was a dangerous man , and I wanted him to be held accountable for what he did this time . @!MELANIE-LAWSON# @(Off-camera) The trial of a prominent former hand surgeon is about to get underway . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) The case hits the local news , and Rachel takes the stand to tell her story . @!RACHEL-BROWN# Reach back , and when he threw it at me , I moved my head . @!JANE-WATERS# I 'm really proud of Rachel Brown . She stood up to him , she testified , and she told the jury what he did to her . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) But her testimony is n't convincing , and Dr. Brown 's lawyers call her a money-grubbing gold digger. @!DICK-DEGUERIN# It was all about money . that 's what happened in his previous divorce case . It was all about money . Any troubles that he 's had can be traced to that . @!GINA-GASTON# @(Off-camera) A jury has found a former surgeon not guilty of attacking his wife . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) In the end , the jury does n't believe Rachel , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Dr. Brown is , very well-known hand surgeon . But you ca n't judge a case on who he is , what he is , what he has , what , but I just feel like there was not enough concrete evidence to convict him . You ca n't worry about any prior cases . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) Triumphant in court , Brown 's lawyers cut off his electronic monitor for the cameras . @!DICK-DEGUERIN# The judge has authorized me to cut it off . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) And the doctor was free , once again , to go about his business . @!MICHAEL-BROWN# I 'm just relieved and , and wan na take care of my kids and get on with my life . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) It seemed the doctor had vanquished all of his enemies , except , perhaps , himself . Fast forward to that flight from London this January . Dr. Brown allegedly wanted his dinner before the crew was ready . The crew claims that lead to a shouting match , which ended with Brown grabbing and finally choking flight attendants , resulting in his arrest . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Brown 's attorney claims his client does n't recall any of it due to stress relievers mixed with alcohol . As for Darlina , Dr. Brown 's brutalized ex-wife ... @!DARLINA-BARONE# I ca n't open my right eye . I 'm bleeding . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS# @(Voiceover) ... she 'd like to forget about Dr. Brown 's behavior too . But her emotional wounds have yet to heal . @!DARLINA-BARONE# I do n't think he 's gon na change . And , you know , when you do n't take accountability for your actions , you ca n't change . He has never taken accountability for what he 's done to me . Next , is this what you 'd like to do after a bad day at the office ? @!DAVE-HINER# As soon as we locked the door , the switch went off , and I just lost it . War in the workplace when we come back .

@@4122941 @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Can not wait to see all of that . But right now , we 're gon na begin with that second chance at freedom for a North Carolina man convicted of killing his wife . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Voiceover) After a five-year battle , an appeals court has granted a new trial to Brad Cooper , who has always insisted he 's innocent . Dan Abrams , Nancy Grace here to weigh in on what happens next . First , the latest on the case from ABC 's Linsey Davis . Good morning , Linsey. @!LINSEY-DAVIS# @(Off-camera) Good morning , George . He was convicted of strangling his wife back in 2008 . And this morning , Brad Cooper is one step closer to having his day in court again . His lawyer says that this time she anticipates crucial testimony about her client 's computer could just set him free . @!LINSEY-DAVIS# @(Voiceover) Brad Cooper deserves a retrial . That 's the ruling of an appeals court that agrees with the defense 's argument that Cooper 's attorneys were denied the right to present testimony from two , key witnesses . @!BRAD-COOPER# If anyone knows anything , I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 34-year-old Nancy Cooper disappeared on July 12 , 2008 . Her husband claims she went for an early morning jog and never returned home . Two days later , her body was found . @!CHIEF-PATRICIA-BAZ# Nancy was murdered , and our investigation is now a homicide . @!DONNA-RENTZ# This is the single , most heartrending tragedy that has ever befallen our family . @!LINSEY-DAVIS# @(Voiceover) Prosecutors alleged Cooper killed her , upset over his wife 's plans to divorce him and move to Canada with their two daughters . The only direct evidence linking him to the murder , a Google map search done on Cooper 's laptop the day before his wife died , showing the exact spot where her body was later discovered . Cooper says he 's innocent , alleging anyone who had access to his computer during investigation could have planted that evidence . @!JUDGE# Find the defendant , Bradley Graham Cooper , to be guilty of first-degree murder . @!LINSEY-DAVIS# @(Voiceover) The jury did n't buy it . And in 2011 , he was convicted of first-degree murder , sentenced to life in prison without @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ appeals court said the judge should have allowed the defense 's two computer experts to testify that Cooper 's computer could have been tampered with and that not doing so constituted reversible error , requiring a new trial . @!LINSEY-DAVIS# @(Voiceover) In a statement to ABC News , Cooper 's attorney says she is very happy with the decision , saying , " Brad 's trial was so unfair . I do not think in all my 33 years of practice have I seen a case where a defendant was so completely stymied or prevented from presenting his defense to the critical issues in this case no matter what he tried than in this case . " @!LINSEY-DAVIS# @(Off-camera) Cooper 's lawyer says the two witnesses who were not allowed to testify would have provided evidence that the Google map files on his computer had , in fact , been tampered with . She says anyone with a little computer knowledge could have placed those files on his computer . Robin ? @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) All right , Linsey . Thanks so much . We 're gon na bring back our @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's here in the studio with me . And from Atlanta , Nancy Grace , host of " Nancy Grace " on HLN . Always good to see you , too , Nance . And we 'll start here in the studio with Dan . Was it the , the right decision here ? @!DAN-ABRAMS# @(Off-camera) it was . I mean , this was the most important piece of evidence in this case . @!DAN-ABRAMS# @(Voiceover) Imagine a Google search for the exact spot where her body was found the day before it happened . And the defense wanted to present evidence that said that there were invalid time stamps , there was no cookie found . And as a result , their experts believed that it either could have been planted or tampered with . That 's crucial evidence that the defense should have been able to present , and the appeals court made the right call . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Voiceover) How about you , Nancy ? Do you think it was the right decision to call for a new trial ? Well , actually , it was the right @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ na make a difference . There 's so much evidence that this guy killed his wife that he 's gon na have the same outcome on the retrial . He 's gon na get life without parole all over again . @!DAN-ABRAMS# @(Voiceover) I do n't think there is that much evidence . I mean , comparatively to other cases that we 've seen , there is a lot of sort of suspicion out there about him . Of course , he is the , the husband in this case . But this was the key piece of evidence . When you talk , when you go through all of the other evidence in the case , the defense had an argument against it except for this piece of evidence . So it 's gon na be a much closer case than , than Nancy suggests ( inaudible ) . Dan , they may have had an argument , but it did n't amount to a hill of beans . I mean , I assume you 've seen " Home Alone 3 , " when Kevin , the little boy @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ phone rerouted to make a call to himself to give himself an alibi while he 's standing in front of a surveillance camera at a grocery store . Come on . It 's so obvious . He fights with her at a neighborhood party the night before . She 's leaving him . She 's going home to Canada with his children . He 's having an affair . He 's been copying all of her emails back and forth to her lawyer and sending them to his new sports website about himself . Come on . They had a big fight the night before . The next morning she 's gone , she 's dead . @!DAN-ABRAMS# @(Voiceover) First of all ... @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Voiceover) But does all that prove murder though ? That 's what the other side is saying that all that has been brought up , you 're right , Nancy , in court . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) There was , like , 36 days of testimony in the first trial . @!DAN-ABRAMS# @(Off-camera) Right . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) But they 're saying , does that lead to murder @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was " Home Alone 2 " not " Home Alone 3 . " But , but on the issue ... No , " Home Alone 3 " is when the phone was rerouted . @!DAN-ABRAMS# @(Off-camera) All right . Check your facts , Dan . @!DAN-ABRAMS# @(Off-camera) I will . I will . This one , that one I will recheck . But this issue with the phone , let 's be clear what Nancy 's talking about here . He allegedly got a phone call that morning from his wife . From himself . @!DAN-ABRAMS# @(Off-camera) If he got that phone call from his wife , it means his wife was alive . It likely means ... Who was facedown dead in a drainpipe at the time . @!DAN-ABRAMS# @(Off-camera) Hang on . It likely means that he did n't do it . Now , Nancy is making the point that the prosecution was suggesting there was n't an iota of evidence that this actually happened . But the prosecution was suggesting that he could have effectively spoofed the call . Ooh . Dan , what does he do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ... He is a telecommunications expert with Cisco . @!DAN-ABRAMS# @(Off-camera) That 's right . And therefore ... Right ? @!DAN-ABRAMS# @(Off-camera) ... it means he could have done it , right ? Yeah . @!DAN-ABRAMS# @(Off-camera) But that does n't mean that he did do it . And then just in case surveillance did n't catch him squeezing the pineapple the first time in the grocery store , during the fake phone call ... @!DAN-ABRAMS# @(Off-camera) Right . ... he did it again . And he had to come up with an idea , oh , my wife called me and said not only do we need milk , we also need detergent . So he gets back in front of the surveillance camera to fake another phone call . @!DAN-ABRAMS# @(Off-camera) So the prosecution in this case basically said that he created a fake phone call , in effect , to himself ... @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) Right . @!DAN-ABRAMS# @(Off-camera) ... to make it seem like she 'd called . Which he did . @!DAN-ABRAMS# @(Off-camera) The problem with that is that there was a lot of suggestion , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have , but there was n't any direct evidence that it actually happened . And that 's why this case is gon na be so much harder the second time around . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) And another question for ... Except that she was dead in a drainpipe at the time the phone call was made so ( inaudible ) . @!DAN-ABRAMS# @(Off-camera) But you would agree - you would agree , Nancy , if the phone call was made that that would be very helpful to the defense , right ? If the call had been made . Yeah , if it had been made . @!DAN-ABRAMS# @(Off-camera) Right . Okay . But I happen to know she was dead at the time , facedown in the drainpipe . @!DAN-ABRAMS# @(Off-camera) Okay . So it was n't made . He did it himself . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) Let me ask you this last , one - one final question , Nancy . Pending a new trial , do you believe that he should be released on bail ? Oh , absolutely not . He should be on an appellate bond . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a new trial . Under our Constitution , you have a right to counter what the state brings on with your own expert . And I disagree with the trial judge . But I , I do , I do n't really believe , and you 're gon na see this in the end , Dan , that another jury is going to agree with the first jury . And maybe this time around , the defendant will have the guts to take the stand . @!DAN-ABRAMS# @(Off-camera) We 'll see . I , it , this could definitely lead to a hung jury , make this a much tougher case for prosecutors but ... Mm-hmm . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) And again the first trial lasted more than a month . @!DAN-ABRAMS# @(Off-camera) Yeah . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) All right . We 'll see what happens . Nancy . @!DAN-ABRAMS# @(Off-camera) Great to be back with you , Nancy . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) Good to see you again , Nancy . Thanks so much . Likewise . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) Take care . Dan , thank you . Let 's get over now to @ @

@@4123341 @!ERIN-BURNETT , -HOST# OUTFRONT next new details emerging tonight about the gunman responsible for killing six people at a Wisconsin temple and a clue to the man 's connection to hate groups . Plus , a new attack ad by an Obama Super PAC linking Mitt Romney to someone 's death , does this attack finally go too far ? And an OUTFRONT investigation into the safety of American soldiers . Why is an inferior tool to detect IEDs still being used right now ? Let 's go OUTFRONT . Good evening , everyone , I 'm Erin Burnett . OUTFRONT tonight , the rise of hate in America . The massacre at A Sikh temple in Oak Creek , Wisconsin has raised so many questions and tonight we have some new details about the shooter , Wade Michael Page . Page was living in Wisconsin for about a year , and as our Ted Rowlands found out , in the months and weeks before he killed six people , Page was a recluse and making arrangements to carry out his attack . Ted is live in Oak Creek tonight . And Ted , what have you been learning @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , Erin , clearly , this was somebody who was shutting down , taking himself out of the day-to-day of society , taking himself away from friends and family . We 're also learning about his past , going back almost 10 years where he was gravitating towards white supremacy . @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @!ROWLANDS- ( voice-ov# In the days and weeks before the temple shooting , Wade Page began to withdraw from the world , starting , according to neighbors , by moving out of the upstairs apartment behind this house he shared with his girlfriend and her son . Neighbors say he left with a few boxes , but did n't seem upset . @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL# I never did see a big break-up or anything . I rarely saw him around . @!ROWLANDS# Two weeks before the shooting , Page stopped showing up for his job as a machine operator at this manufacturing facility . Then on July 28th , a week before the shooting , he walked into this gun store and bought a 9-millimeter semiautomatic handgun like this one . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE# The purchase was done legally . He filled @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ background check . @!ROWLANDS# Six days later , authorities say he used that gun to shoot nine people , six of whom died . What still is n't clear to investigators is why . Page 's girlfriend was questioned the day of the shootings , but investigators say she offered no insight on Page 's motive . Neighbors say she told them that she had n't talked to Page since he moved out and he had even shut down his e-mail account . There were people inside , but no answer when we went to Page 's girlfriend 's apartment . @(KNOCKING-ON-DOOR) @!ROWLANDS# We 're learning more about Page 's past and his apparent association with white supremacists . The owner of this Harley Davidson shop in Fayetteville , North Carolina says he found an application belonging to Page to join the Ku Klux Klan after he fired Page in 2004 for yelling at female employees . He also says Page became angry when he came back later to get the application and was told it was destroyed . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE# We escorted him to the car on his final day @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ had had left on his desk and he did . It was an application for the KKK . And I got that application and destroyed it . @!ROWLANDS# Page grew up and went to high school in Littleton , Colorado . His grandmother and stepmother still live in Denver . @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL# What has changed him , I have no idea . And obviously , we 're never going to know . @(END-VIDEOTAPE) @!BURNETT# Ted , pretty tragic there , but also that shocking revelation about his application for the Ku Klux Klan . Have investigators found more information from Page , notes he may have left or anything like that ? @!ROWLANDS# Well , no big aha discovery . According to investigators , there was no note left , no -- nothing on a computer . And that 's really what is perplexing here . In fact , the police chief here this evening told me that this is one of those situations where they may never know his true motive . @!BURNETT# One thing I know you found a lot more about , though , Ted , is his @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that having been a crucial part of his life , perhaps , where he may have found out about some of these groups that he then joined . What have you found out about his military record ? @!ROWLANDS# Well , he was discharged for misconduct , basically , over an incident where he was drunk on active duty , and he went AWOL and when he came to his discharge , he was told that he would not be eligible to reenlist in the Army . They told him they 'd had enough of him and sent him on his way . @!BURNETT# All right . Ted Rowlands , thank you very much , reporting there Oak Creek tonight . Well there are hard numbers on the rise of hate in America and we want to share them with you . According to the Southern Poverty Law Center , hate groups have increased 69 percent since the year 2000 . Now when we use the word hate this is what we mean . It does have a formal definition . It means a group or a movement that practices @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ race , religion , gender , or sexual orientation . Take a look at this map . As you can see , there are hate groups in almost every state in this country , 84 of them in California alone , 65 in Georgia , Florida , New Jersey , and Texas rounds out the top five states with hate groups . Those numbers are pretty stunning when you look at it ; I mean just looking at it this particular way . The question is what is fueling this hate ? @!J.M-Berger-has-bee# Well , the band was pretty well traveled . They did gigs in Baltimore , North Carolina and in Florida . The Florida engagement was a particularly interesting one , because they performed at an event that was -- " Hammerskin " event that was connected to the American Front organization . That was a racial paramilitary group that was planning to start a race war . There were a number of arrests in May . And at the event , there was at least one informant law enforcement source who was attending the event and there @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , as well . @!BURNETT# So what are you saying ? So you 're saying at an event as recently as this May where Wade Page was , there could have been an informant to local law enforcement , to the FBI , to whom , someone who would have seen him there ? @!BERGER# The event was in 2011. @!BURNETT# OK. @!BERGER# The arrests of the American Front people were in May of 2012 . And an informant reported seeing the band there in a redacted report . I was n't able to read everything that was in the report . But he was definitely in a room with a law enforcement source and there may have been other records that came out of that . Hammerskins were involved with this American Front group . So you know while we 're talking about this guy , you know , as somebody who may have acted alone , he was also connected to a pretty wide variety of groups that are considered to be very dangerous . @!BURNETT# Yes and Heidi , this shows either the difficulty of connecting a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a failure . Obviously , the FBI has said to CNN today that they did n't start a formal investigation , whether they had seen Wade Page at any of these events or not , and I know Heidi that you told me yesterday when we were in Oak Creek that you had been tracking Wade Page for more than a decade . I 'm just curious how many people in general are you tracking . How many people do you track for these extended periods of time ? @!HEIDI-BEIRICH , -SOU# Well , there 's a shocking number , actually , of individuals with connections to the hate movement that we have captured information on , more than 20,000 by now and Wade Page was n't so rare . There 's probably hundreds , several hundred " skinheads " that look like him or are tattooed up like him and have connections to groups like this . It may even actually be in the thousands . So although he looks very , very scary you know to the average American , within this world , he 's just one @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ there are thousands of people who are sending the sort of red flags that Wade Page has been sending to you . I know for -- about a dozen years you tracked him . @!BEIRICH# Yes , we have been following him since 2000 , which is when he started hanging out with neo-Nazis and ended up on the music scene . He attended a thing called " Hammer Fest " put on by this " Hammerskin Nation " in 2000 and then of course he went on to you know form his own band , play in other bands and make connections with a whole host of groups . The " Hammerskins " , the American Front , as your other guest just said . So he was very , very active in the skinhead movement for a long time . @!BURNETT# J.M. , you know we used to hear -- maybe this is anecdotal , but it feels like we used to hear more about these white supremacist groups , about big rallies where they would all get together and it does n't feel like we hear that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ number of groups has been rising . So why does it appear there 's so much more under the radar now ? @!BERGER# Well the movement has become very splintered . You know in the ' 90s when this was really a very big deal , there was not only more larger organizations , some of which have been put out of business by the Southern Poverty Law Center , there were bigger organizations . They had larger meetings . And what we see now are a host of smaller organizations when they get together , it 's usually in groups of 30 or 40 . It 's much more splintered movement and they have also disconnected from some other anti-government extremists that they used to be more closely aligned with . For instance , the Patriot Movement has really taken steps toward renouncing racism . It 's not a totally clean break , but a lot of Patriot groups which are anti-government oriented used to be friendly with these organized racist groups and they are not so much anymore . @!BURNETT# Have moved apart , all right , well @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ OUTFRONT there is a new Super PAC attack ad and this is an attack ad like we have never seen before . It links Mitt Romney to a woman 's death . Is this a new low ? Plus , a British bank tells the U.S. to go " blank " itself over Iran . And the man accused of shooting Gabby Giffords makes a plea deal . Are all the victims satisfied ? @!BURNETT# Our second story OUTFRONT nasty , the political attack ads keep coming and coming and they are nasty , this time an ad from a Super PAC supporting President Obama blaming Mitt Romney for a woman dying of cancer . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE , # When Mitt Romney and Bain closed the plan I lost my health care . And my family lost their health care and a short time after that my wife became ill. @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!BURNETT# And she passed away in 2006 five years after the plant closed , 13 years after Bain acquired the plant , and as CNN has learned during a time when her primary insurer was her employer , not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ line ? Michael Waldman is a former speechwriter for Bill Clinton . David Frum is a former speechwriter for George W. Bush and John Avlon is here . All right , great to have all of you , so first of all , the facts do n't even seem to indicate that this is true . It is -- and at the same time , a horrific allegation . Obviously , we left the -- let 's lay out for people here the time line . I 'll throw it out . Bain Capital buys this company , GST Steel in 1993 . It goes bankrupt in 2001 . In 2006 , she passes away from cancer , again , when her employer was her health care provider , not her husband 's . What 's your reaction to this ad ? @!DAVID-FRUM , -CNN-CO# Well , it is horrible . It would be -- and it would be horrible even if it were not so factually wrong because in a capitalist economy , companies , plants close all of the time . Some bad -- some people go on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ success and the people who laid them off do n't deserve the credit for the fact that they discovered new meaning in their lives . And you 're not responsible for every unforeseeable consequence of every business decision you make . And it is just -- it is so brutal . It makes you wonder what the Obama people will be doing in October if this is what they 're doing in August . Let me add one more thought , and this is in no way to excuse what the Priorities USA people did , which is really outrageous . @!BURNETT# They 're the ones of course everyone who did the ad , just so you know it 's the name of the Super PAC . @!FRUM# Let 's not forget , Mitt Romney is the first governor in America to introduce a universal health coverage program . That is what -- that is his best answer to this , which is he actually was the person to put in place conditions where this would n't happen anymore when people lose their jobs . Why wo n't he talk @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ point , but to get there , you have to get through a really , really nasty ad that is -- @!JOHN-AVLON , -CNN-CO# Yes and -- @!BURNETT# -- impossible to justify , right ? @!AVLON# I mean look , I mean you know it 's important to point out this ad does n't accuse Mitt Romney of giving the woman cancer , obviously . But there is -- they 're trying to make a linkage . Is it way outside the line ? Absolutely . Is it ugly ? Absolutely . And this is what Super PACs do . This is what is important . You know a long time ago , we talked about how there was going to be a tsunami of sleaze on the airwaves , because of these Super PACs . Super PAC ads are overwhelmingly negative -- @!BURNETT# This Super PAC though -- this Super PAC I just want to make clear is run by Bill Burton , who was the deputy press secretary under Barack Obama -- @!AVLON# Absolutely . @!BURNETT# -- and I know they 're -- they do n't talk about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ knows Barack Obama really well and I do n't know that he would do this if he thought that Barack Obama would find this to be vile . @!AVLON# And this is part of the legal fiction ( ph ) in the Super PAC structures that we 've seen . You know they 've got to be separate but it is always with a wink and a nod . Look one thing -- you talk to people at Priorities they 'll say we can go further than the campaign can . We can be more aggressive . But that aggressiveness is always code for ugly and this is the overwhelming ugliness of Super PAC ads . They 're never positive . They 're always negative . And this ad , in addition to being incredibly ugly , as you just put it , does n't add up , the facts . @!BURNETT# No , it does not . Michael Waldman , is there any way to defend this ? I mean Bill Burton , again , who is the senior strategist at the super PAC that bought this , the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the president said in response quote , " We 're illustrating how long it took for communities and individuals to recovery from the closing of these businesses . Mitt Romney has had an enduring impact on the lives of thousands of men and women and for many of them that impact has been devastating . " Well a lot of people have lost their jobs while Barack Obama has been president , people that work in government . I mean you could blame him for their problems . @!MICHAEL-WALDMAN , -F# Well , look , the facts that you just said raise important questions . And this was a very tough ad , a ratcheting up or down , as you want to look at it . And John is exactly right . If you do n't like this , get used to it . This is the world of campaign finance that the Supreme Court has given us with the Citizens United decision and other cases . This is the world where Super PACs run these ads and 86 percent of the ads run in this campaign by Super @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ most visible manifestation of a very dispiriting and depressing campaign where neither side has really told the country what it wants to do in the next four years with policy -- @!BURNETT# And Michael , just because you put that stat out there , I just want to follow up , 86 percent of Super PAC ads , but if you look at the past week , 94 percent of the ads that have run sponsored by anybody have been negative , five percent positive . I mean is that the worst it 's perhaps ever been ? @!WALDMAN# Without a doubt and part of it is that you know we think of the campaign as starting -- after Labor Day as some people have said , the campaign started a long time ago . We 're near the home stretch . But this is a race where people use the negative ads , the public say they do n't like it , but they actually work . But it 's very unfortunate . It ca n't help public confidence in government and you 've got to do some of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ positive way from both candidates what they want to do . @!BURNETT# Quick final word to John , I mean they do work . Negative -- highly negative ratings for both candidates go up . I mean so -- @!AVLON# This is a race to the bottom above campaigns . They want -- @!BURNETT# Yes . @!AVLON# -- especially the Obama camp wants to make Mitt Romney an unacceptable alternative , so it 's an all in negative campaign . The thing is it does alienate some independent voters . You do see some independents just totally disgusted . The problem is what 's your positive alternative ? And the answer is there is n't one in this campaign . @!BURNETT# Time for a third party . All right , well thanks to all three . You can always have hope . All right next this quote -- " You ' bleeping ' Americans , who are you to tell us , the rest of the world , what to do ? " Who said it and why is next . And be careful what you like on Facebook . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ story OUTFRONT " you ' bleeping ' Americans , who are you to tell us the rest of the world that we 're not going to deal with Iranians ? " Those are the words of an executive from British Bank Standard Chartered quoted in a report by the New York State Department of Financial Services . The state accuses the bank of using its New York branch to hide transactions from regulators , saying that it schemed with Iran to funnel at least $250 billion over a decade to the Iranian government . The bank denies the allegations , but these are serious , serious charges . The FBI and the Treasury Department are investigating . OUTFRONT tonight , foreign affairs reporter Elise Labott . And Elise , I mean this is a pretty amazing , just a quote to sort of get out there that this happened . Obviously we 're in the midst right now of the toughest sanctions the U.S. has ever put on Iran , but it needs the rest of the world to get on board . How does this development undermine the sanctions @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ undermines them . As you said , I mean this is really one of the most effective sanctions campaign in years . The U.S. has really squeezed Iran 's access to financial transactions , really bringing it to its knees , almost shutting down the Iranian Central Bank . It 's -- in recent months it 's instituted having Iran -- countries that are using Iran 's oil to reduce their exports or they would face U.N . sanctions . They have been working with the EU on an oil embargo and so there are already these natural loopholes in sanctions for legitimate transactions like food and medicine . But what the U.S. really wants to do is close up these illegal loopholes . Just last week , the U.S. slapped sanctions on a Chinese bank for doing these types of transactions . So it 's a real problem for U.S. officials . @!BURNETT# It 's pretty incredible . Elise , thank you very much . Elise has done a lot of reporting on this . And we also have reporting on U.S. sanctions on Iran that can be found @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ magazine . There are other loopholes and you know the U.S. has the option to say Standard Chartered go ahead and do business with Iran but you ca n't do business with the U.S. We have that option but we do n't use it . Check it out in our blog , CNN.com/OUTFRONT. @!OUTFRONT-next-how-# Welcome back to the second half of OUTFRONT . We start with stories we care about , where we focus on our reporting from the front lines . First , the prosecution is asking for a three-year sentence in the trial of a Russian punk band that has been charged with hooliganism . As we 've been reporting , three members of the all-girl band Pussy Riot were arrested after performing an anti-Putin song in a Moscow cathedral . Angus Roxburgh , author of " The Strongman : Vladimir Putin and the Struggle for Russia , " tells OUTFRONT that Putin is using the case as a warning to other protesters and dissenters . Well , the Government Accountability Office has a new report that says the U.S. government should reassess the standards it uses to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ topic everyone is curious about . It says the standards which were set by the FCC back in 1996 do n't reflect the latest research . In a statement to OUTFRONT , the FCC says that the U.S. has among the most conservative standards in the world . The agency added that as part of their most recent review of the standards that began just this summer , they 're going to be looking at federal health agency reports to try to guide their final assessment . Well , NASA has released the first color photos taken by its rover Curiosity , which successfully landed on Mars surface Monday . So the photo -- here 's the surface of Mars . It shows a dusty desert in the northern rim of the Gale Crater . Sort of looks like southern Tunisia . It was caught by camera on Curiosity 's robotic arm , which is still . The senior scientist working on the camera says the crater 's rim is 12 1/2 half miles away from the rover . There was a transparent dust shield covering the lens which is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , we spent about $5 billion for that rover . Oil prices rose $1.47 today . So , now , they 're just shy of $94 a barrel , $93.67 . We have n't been there since May . Analysts say that there are a few things that are causing prices to go up . Hope that there 's an economic stimulus and people feel better and fill up their cars more . There is also a storm in the Gulf of Mexico that could hurt supply . And , of course , there is always the problems going on with Iran in the Middle East . Today , the Energy Information Administration says there 's no relief in sight . Oil prices are n't going to go down for the rest of the year , they are going to stay where they are and that 's been hurting gas prices . The average price for a gallon of gas is up 30 cents in the past five weeks . Well , it has been 369 days since the U.S. lost its top credit rating . What are we doing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ by the way , is standing by that downgrade and gave another warning today to Greece , cutting its outlook to negative which means they could get downgraded again soon . Greece , of course , is already rated at the bottom of the barrel at a CCC . No , we stopped paying attention to Greece but it still could cause another global crisis . And our fourth story tonight , an OUTFRONT investigation . Is the Army withholding information that could protect American soldiers in Afghanistan from deadly roadside bombs ? Congress and the Army tonight are investigating whether data was manipulated in a report about roadside bomb detectors . Data that made one detection system look favorable , despite what turned out to be a relative lack of reliability . Pentagon correspondent Chris Lawrence has the story . @(BEGIN-VIDEOTAPE) @!CHRIS-LAWRENCE , -CN# IEDs have killed more Americans in Afghanistan than any single weapon . So you 'd think the Army would buy the very best software to predict where roadside bombs are buried . But Congress is investigating whether the Army manipulated information to buy an inferior @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 're going to find out that pentagon civilian bureaucrats have stopped the ground combat commanders from getting Palantir or other software that they 've asked for . That 's what is going to happen . @!LAWRENCE# CNN obtained documents that showed troops praising a privately developed system called Palantir , shown in this video . But before that report was passed up the chain of command , the Army 's testing command ordered it destroyed , replaced by a report that removed favorable references to Palantir . The Army has spent well over $2 billion on its own system . The distributed common ground system , or DCGS. @!GEN-JAMES- " SPIDER " # You do n't want to put good money after bad . @!LAWRENCE# Retired General Spider Marks says if report A says Palantir does a great job and report B says we 're sticking with DCGS , there 's a problem . @!MARKS# You 've got to try to figure out why is there this great disparity . And clearly , I mean , I 'd look at the program office that 's responsible for desigs ( ph @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? Are you changing data or are you trying to cook the books ? @!LAWRENCE# CNN has confirmed there 's a recent memo from the Army 's own chief tester who evaluated DGCS . His investigation found the software not effective or suitable . In its defense , the Army compares the system to our smartphones , in the way that we constantly update apps to meet the latest needs . In a statement to CNN , a spokesman says , quote , many of these limitations were already identified by the Army , and software updates have been implemented to address the concerns . The version identified in this test is undergoing improvement . ( END VIDEOTAPE ) @!BURNETT# All right , Chris joins me now from the Pentagon . And , Chris , obviously the allegations here are a huge deal . I mean , this is the lives of American soldiers that were put at risk and perhaps lost if this is true . How does the Army explain it ? @!LAWRENCE# Yes , that 's right , Erin . Basically , even though -- yes , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of these IED deaths going down at times , you 're still talking well over 250 troops killed last year , well over 350 killed the year before . So as for why the army may have scrapped this first report , an army official claims that they were just trying to make it , ( a ) , easier to read and correct some of the mistakes in it , not try to shortchange Palantir. @!BURNETT# One thing I 'm curious , though , Chris -- and I know they sort of try to give their side of the story , but it still seems a bit unclear . Why would they favor the system even though it is more expensive and less reliable ? @!BURNETT# Yes , basically , the -- what the Army is saying is that it would take a lot to switch systems . It 's very , very expensive , and the fact that these systems do more than just detect IEDs . They claim that their original system , this DCGS , has more of a broader capability than the Palantir does at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to Congress by next week . So , we should be getting more answers very , very soon . @!BURNETT# All right . Well , certainly troubling allegations . Thanks very much to Chris Lawrence , as you 'll keep covering that story for OUTFRONT . Well , the man who killed six people and injured 13 outside an Arizona supermarket last year , including then-Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords now admits he 's guilty . Kyung Lah was in the courtroom for the hearing and she is OUTFRONT tonight . Kyung , what happened today ? I know you had a chance to see Jared Loughner and you see his face , his reaction , his walking , what did he do ? @!KYUNG-LAH , -CNN-COR# Well , I can tell you that when he walked into the courtroom , he certainly looked mentally unwell . But this is an improvement from the last public appearances he had had . The first time he had a hearing , he looked down and smiled as the charges were read against him . In another appearance in court , he actually had to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ outburst . This time he appeared -- even though he did n't look quite together in his expressions , he certainly looked like he understands everything that was happening . He was able to respond to the questions from his judges . His mother was seated right behind me as this was going on . And she cried as he repeated 19 times " I plead guilty . " It was a very full courtroom . In there were also victims , And what today 's plea deal does is prevents them from having to go through a long and painful trial . Here 's what one woman told us. @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!SUZI-HILEMANN , -SHO# This is the system doing its best . It 's not a perfect solution . The perfect solution is one that we ca n't have . What we want is not available to us. @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!LAH# The woman who you just heard there , she is the one who brought Christina Taylor Green to the " Congress on Your Corner " event 18 months ago . Christina Green , just 9 years old , the youngest @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And , Kyung , I know , obviously , in exchange for his guilty plea , he gets life in prison and does n't get the death penalty . I know that a lot of people may have mixed feelings about that , among the victims . And I know that some of them right now , as you have been reporting , may be going through a city council meeting . Can you tell us more about what that is ? @!LAH# What they 're doing right now as we speak , they 're gathering and they 're getting together to go to the Tucson City council meeting . What the Tucson city council is it going to do is pass a resolution which supports something called the Fix Gun Checks Act . It actually beefs up background checks for every single gun sale and also improves the reporting of mental health records . Here 's what one of the Tucson shooting victims also told us about that . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!PAM-SIMON , -SHOOTIN# One of those ways , I believe , that we can make some good come out @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ who should bear arms . What hands should firearms go into ? And we can all agree that the seriously mentally ill and those with criminal records should not be holding a gun . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!LAH# And she 's very calm as she is speaking there . But I can tell you , from having spoken to some of these victims , there is a frustration on their part that they feel that the federal government , specifically the two presidential candidates , as well as members of Congress , are simply letting people down by not having adequate gun laws -- Erin . BURNETT : And , Kyung , just a final question . I know Attorney General Holder decided to not go for the death penalty in exchange for this plea . Are there -- I know you spent a lot of time with victims and their families . Are there people who wish that he had , that they could have ended up getting that outcome , even though obviously that would expose them to maybe it not happening at all , just because it would go @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , what everyone has been saying who we have spoken to is that this was the best outcome for everyone involved , because there were just risks that it could have gone the other way . And what they 're happy with is simply not having to put this community through something so painful . @!BURNETT# All right . Kyung , thank you very much . And still OUTFRONT : the Facebook " like " that got one man fired , and the split among Mormons over Mitt. @!BURNETT# So there 's a lot of things to like on Facebook , if you 're on that site . You can like a product , someone says something , you can say you like the comment . You can like a picture . But does clicking the " like " button constitute free speech ? That 's what a former police officer in Virginia is arguing . Daniel Ray Carter was a deputy sheriff in Hampton , Virginia , and he says he was fired for liking a post , Jim Adams for Hampton sheriff . The problem , he was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ his boss . So shortly after his boss , B.J. Roberts , was reelected , Carter got fired . Carter sued in federal court but lost . The judge said that , look , you click the " like " button , that is not enough to qualify for free speech under the First Amendment . It does n't involve a statement of how you feel . Carter is appealing the ruling and now with some help from Facebook which in a brief supporting Carter in the appeal , says a " like " in this case is the 21st century equivalent of a front yard campaign sign . The ACLU compared it to wearing an " I like Ike " button -- which brings me to the number tonight : 53 . That 's how many years ago DF Pickert ( ph ) was fired from his part time job as ranch caretaker for liking Ike . It was a headline December 15th , 1958 edition of the Tri- City Herald . Pickert worked for Senator Wayne Morse of Oregon , who was a Democrat . He claimed he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and saying he liked Dwight Eisenhower . Morse said he filed Pickert for not being loyal . The direct quote to " The Tri-City Herald " was he had not been loyal to my friendship . And you know what ? There 's something to that . Here 's to show that loyalty still counts . And now to tonight 's " Outer Circle " where we reach out to our sources around the world . We begin in Syria where the U.N . pulled its monitors from the city of Aleppo because of ramped up violence , a battle of control for the city has been raging for days . Life is increasingly difficult for people who are left behind . Mohamed Jamjoom is following the story in Abu Dhabi and I asked him about the deteriorating condition . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!MOHAMED-JAMJOOM , -C# Erin , according to the activists who we 've been speaking with there , the situation is terrible . It is dire , and it is only getting worse . We 're hearing about a constant pounding by shelling going on in several neighborhoods Aleppo . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to shell a lot of neighborhoods in Aleppo , to try to drive out the Syrian rebels . We 're also hearing about a humanitarian crisis in Aleppo that has been worsening . We 've heard for days now that there are food shortages , that there are bread shortages , that there are fuel shortages . Now , we 're hearing today in certain neighborhoods , that there are n't enough medical supplies or doctors to adequately treat the wounded . They 're saying it 's just getting worse . Also today , we had news that the 24 U.N . observers that were in Aleppo have been pulled out because the situation there has worsened so much -- Erin . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!BURNETT# Thanks to Mohamed . And now to Grenada , which is relishing , relishing , its first-ever Olympic medal after 19-year-old Kirani James won gold in the 100 meters on Monday . It was amazing what happened . Becky Anderson is covering the games in London and I asked her how this very small country you may not have heard of is celebrating this big deal @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ time before Grenada has another moment to savor like this . Local boy Kirani James sprinting to victory in the men 's 400 meters Olympic final here in London . And the celebrations were , understandably , ecstatic . It was the first Olympic medal ever for the small Caribbean island of just 100,000 people and the prime minister marking it ( INAUDIBLE ) , declaring a half-day holiday and giving the entire island the afternoon off . One of those Olympic moments to remember -- Erin . @(END-VIDEO-CLIP) @!BURNETT# I just love those pictures . Thanks to Becky . And now let 's check in with Anderson with a look at what 's coming up on " A.C. 360 " . He 's still in Oak Creek . And , Anderson , what do you have ? @!ANDERSON-COOPER , -H# Yes , the community trying to come to grips with the shooting on Sunday and the aftermath of it at the Sikh temple . There have been vigils and ceremonies remembering the lives of the victims . We 're going to do the same in the hour ahead tonight @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the temple , Amardeep Kaleka . His father was fatally wounded when he tried to take down the shooter using a butter knife . I 'm also joined by the ex-stepmother of the man who pulled the trigger , Wade Page , what she remembers . The very different boy growing up and she said that she thinks his racist views may have been formed while serving in the military . Drew Griffin is investigating that angle . Also ahead , hours after the shooting at the Sikh temple here in Oak Creek , Wisconsin , the mosque in Joplin , Missouri , burned to the ground . Gary Tuchman is in Joplin where the community is scared but vows to rebuild there . Those stories and report from on the ground near Aleppo , Syria . We talk to our Ben Wedeman who has been witnessing the fighting there . That 's all at the top of the hour , Erin . @!BURNETT# Yes , Anderson . Really looking forward to it and see you in a few moments . Now our fifth story OUTFRONT : Reid versus @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid , just in case you have n't been paying attention lately , has said that Mitt Romney wo n't release his tax returns because he did n't pay taxes for 10 years . How did he know that ? That he says he does not know but he 's got a good source . The two men have been going at each other 's throats with Mitt Romney responding , " Put up or shut up , Harry " . But they have one important thing in common , these two men , the Mormon Church . " BuzzFeed " reporter McKay Coppins has reported extensively on the church . He was raised Mormon himself . Thanks , McKay , for coming in . You know , there was something about , hey , they both were Mormon . I 'm curious , you know , every religious group has people on both sides of the aisle . But why is Mormon playing a role in this fight ? MCKAY COPPINS , BUZZFEED REPORTER : Well , it 's interesting because they really come from @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the church . Harry Reid is a convert . Mitt Romney is from the east . Harry is from the west . But they share this community of wealthy , powerful , kind of well- appointed Mormons , that kind of make the connection interesting as they kind of duke it out over the finances of Mitt Romney 's -- @!BURNETT# There 's a perception with people saying , you know , within the Mormon Church , there 's very many successful businessmen and power players in this country who are of the Mormon faith , and it 's still a relatively smaller religion than other religions . So they do know each other . @!COPPINS# Yes , I do n't know if they 've ever met face-to-face but the finance world that Mitt Romney comes from in Boston is heavily infused with Mormons . Harvard Business School famously has plenty of Mormons on the faculty and Bain Capital , which Mitt Romney founded , he started with a lot of hot-shot , young Mormon financiers , some of whom are Democrats . So , when Reid says he has @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ if that 's true or who it is , but if he does , it 's possible they 're a Mormon Democrat from the Bain era. @!BURNETT# Right , because as you said , there are a lot of Mormons at Bain . Let 's get to this Democrat Republican because that would make sense . If Harry Reid does have a source , it would be a Democrat from Bain . Mormons , though , according to the Pew Survey are much more conservative than the regular population , increasingly so , 74 percent of Mormons in America lean Republican , 17 percent lean Democrat . I mean , that would mean Romney is more powerful than Reid , what does this mean ? @!COPPINS# He 's certainly better liked and has much higher favorable ratings . Although , when he ran -- when Mitt Romney ran in 1994 , his kind of foray into politics , there was a small but very vocal group called Mormons Against Romney , that would show up at his events and heckle him , would leak information to " The Boston Globe @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ heckle ? @!COOPINS# They would heckle him , yes . They would ask him questions about , you know , his record and about his position on abortion . So there 's been always kind of this group of liberal Mormons that 's dogged him throughout his political career . @!BURNETT# So , Romney , obviously , is very powerful in the Mormon business community , in the Mormon Church . Does he have enemies in the church , in the business community , that people that -- you know , have heard of , that would have this kind of bone to pick ? @!COPPINS# Yes . Well , like said , the Massachusetts Mormon community is probably one of the most liberal in the country . And it 's still , you know , fairly conservative . @!BURNETT# It is for Massachusetts . @!COPPINS# Right , right . And so it 's certainly not hard to believe there would be people who would be in Reid 's rolodex and would say , you know , Reid , I 've got an interesting bit of gossip for you . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have no idea , obviously , Reid wo n't release his sources . But if there is something like this , it stands to reason that it comes from the Mormon . @!BURNETT# All right . As a reporter , who also happens to be a Mormon , should Reid put out his sources ? @!COPPINS# Absolutely . Of course . @!BURNETT# Why not , right ? @!COPPINS# He wants Romney to be transparent . Reid should be transparent . But this is all a parlor game . I mean , he -- no one expects anyone to really say anything , but it 's just a matter of trying to control the conversation . @!BURNETT# So we did our -- we asked our political strike team . These are independents , you 're on it , to weigh in on who 's winning now , Mitt or Harry . Sixty-three percent said Harry Reid , which sort of surprised me only because Reid came out and said , I have a source that 's telling me , you know , something -- pretty incredible accusation . What did you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ said Harry Reid was winning as well . It 's almost one of these sad situations in politics where the truth is kind of beside the point . When you 're talking about who 's winning and losing , Harry Reid has kept this stuff in the headlines and that 's what he 's wanted to do . Every day that we talk about this stuff is a day Mitt Romney is losing . @!BURNETT# And here we are talking about it . @!COPPINS# And here we are talking about , right . @!BURNETT# All right . McKay , always good to see you , appreciate it . And next , a happy birthday to a true original . @!BURNETT# We 'd like to wish a very happy birthday to a true original . Today is Garrison Keillor 's 70th birthday . The author , radio host and humorous has entertained a loyal following with unique style of wholesome Americana storytelling for 43 years . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!GARRISON-KEILLOR , -# Breakfast in that cold , cold house in the morning . My father believed if you could n't see your breath @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , I grew up listening to Garrison Keillor 's weekly radio show called " The Prairie Home Companion . " My ad would put it on on Saturday night . And I love it , blazing fire , Garrison Keillor , you heard the voice . It makes for a cozy winter night . The show takes place in the supposedly fictional town which goes by Lake Wobegon . It 's rooted in Minnesota 's background and pokes a lot of fun at Lutherans . Garrison Keillor 's tales can also be rather poignant , though , like in some of his stories about love between the no longer young . And he finds some really great music acts . Rosanne Cash was on recently . She was great . That 's my favorite part of the show . One reason I decided I liked Garrison him as a kid was how he said good-bye every night . @(BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP) @!KEILLOR# And that 's the news from Lake Wobegon , where all the women are strong , all the men are good-looking , and all the children are above average . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and girls that used to say , " I got my dad 's brains and my mom 's looks " ? I used to see them in airports and knickknack stores and places like Florida -- I remember one there . I hope they do n't make them anymore . I 'd like to think that Garrison 's line sort of throwing all stereotypes on their heads played a role in ending that sort of thing . Keillor once said he 'd retire at age 70 , but thank God he rescinded that threat saying the show is going well , why quit ? Well , here 's one person saying I hope he never does . From a big fan , happy birthday , Garrison . Thanks for watching . " A.C. 360 " starts now .

@@4123541 @!JOSEPH-WHITE# Good to be with you . @!NEAL-CONAN# And these new CAFE standards to improve vehicle mileage by almost 50 percent , that 's a huge increase . @!JOSEPH-WHITE# Yeah , that 's a big increase , but it is over a long time , and the car business has kind of done this before . They did it between roughly 1975 and roughly 2000 , or actually even earlier , in the 1990s . They pretty much doubled fuel economy after the Arab oil shocks of the 1970s , prodded by the federal government . So it 's not completely unprecedented , but it certainly is ambitious . @!NEAL-CONAN# Yeah , that 54 miles a gallon , that 's almost a fantasy number . @!JOSEPH-WHITE# Well , no , it 's not , if - not to be too argumentative ... @!NEAL-CONAN# No , that 's all right . @!JOSEPH-WHITE# If you lived in Europe , it would n't be a fantasy , it would be your reality . I mean , essentially one way to look at this is that the federal - our government , the United States government , is essentially asking the car business @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to the fleet that they field in Europe , where gas prices are roughly double what we pay . @!NEAL-CONAN# And why are these standards being greeted with cheers in Detroit ? @!JOSEPH-WHITE# Well , cheers with a great big asterisk . The auto industry - this is very complicated , but some simple points . The automakers face a dilemma here , which is that just say no , the just say no approach they took to fuel economy regulations in the 1980s and 1990s clearly had run its course , and that was even before the bailout . And one reason why that was true is that California , which has the power to essentially impose its own fuel economy regulations , had sent the message that they intended to do just that . And the car business was looking at what they considered to be a very bad scenario of having two , possibly three different fuel economy regimes across the nation . That 's bad . They want to have just one so they can field one fleet of cars to this very large market that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a long story short , the car business , it was caught in a political squeeze play , and they played it for the best that they could . They agreed with the Obama administration , let 's have a national standard . During the time of the bailout , the administration had a lot of leverage to say we want that standard to be very ambitious . The car companies essentially had to say can we do it , yes , but you 've got to give us some wiggle room . You 've got to give us some off ramps if things do n't work out . And they got those . And so they 're about as happy as they can be with that , despite the fact that if you ask them off the record do they think that the 2025 54-and-a-half mile a gallon standard is something that 's attainable , they would say yeah , but , and the but is a pretty big one . @!NEAL-CONAN# And the but , they do have an opt-out point , maybe , in 2017 . There @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ say - is this reasonable . @!JOSEPH-WHITE# That 's right , that 's right . And , you know , consumers are going to be the ultimate arbiters of this , which is a good thing . Consumers are going to either buy cars that comply with this standard and crossover utility vehicles and pickup trucks that comply with these standards , or they 're not . And if they do n't , then that you 're going to see the auto industry gather itself up and go to Washington and say we need to - we need relief from this . Of course , they 'll be asking a different administration in 2017 , but they will do it if they do n't think they can sell the products that they 're being asked to build . @!NEAL-CONAN# And it 's important to remember , this is going to be different for cars and light trucks , the pickup trucks that are so popular . They have to average - the fleet has to average , by any manufacturer , 54-and-a-half miles a gallon . @!JOSEPH-WHITE# Not - well @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is - you know , it 's important for listeners to know that this is 1,230 pages of regulations . It 's got math problems that make your head hurt just to look at them . @(LAUGHTER) @!JOSEPH-WHITE# This is - I wo n't say - it 's probably wrong to say this is as complicated as Dodd-Frank or the health care law , but it 's not simple either . And so one of the things that 's important to the car business is that the old system that this replaced did force them to average across their fleet . With this new system , they have a bit of an easier way to go . They have to get cars that are of a given size , or footprint is the technical term that they use . Essentially think of it as the shadow that the vehicle casts on the ground if you 're parked . They have to get vehicles of a given size to hit a given standard . The smaller the vehicle , the tougher the standard . A compact car like - or a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , it 's a 60-mile-a-gallon standard under the kind of weird math that they use . A pickup truck would maybe be closer to the high 20s or low 30s by sometime in the next decade . It 's a much easier standard for them to make , and that 's assuming that they bother to make it at all . @!NEAL-CONAN# We want to hear from our callers , 800-989-8255 . Email is talk @npr.org If you 're in the market for a new car , what kind of features are important to you ? How do you prioritize ? We 'll start with DJ , and DJ 's on the line with us from Weirs in New Hampshire . DJ : Yes , hi there . @!NEAL-CONAN# Go ahead , please . DJ : Thanks so much for taking the call . For me , gas mileage - utmost priority . I drive over 150 miles a day roundtrip to go to work . And I have a comment and a question . I own a 2001 Toyota that already gets , in its conventional gas engine , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the auto manufacturers , is if it costs me $11,000 to buy that - this car back in 2001 , what 's the big deal about increasing the gas mileage on a car like this that already gets it , a high gas rating ? Well , how much more expensive , really , could it be and why ? And I 'll take the answer off the air . @!NEAL-CONAN# And it to some degree depends on the price of fuel , but let 's get an engineer to help us out with this . Daniel Sperling , a professor of civil engineering at the University of California Davis , where he directs the Institute of Transportation ; he 's also the co-author of " Two Billion Cars : Driving Towards Sustainability , " and joins us now from a studio at the U.C. Davis campus . Nice to have you with us today . @!DANIEL-SPERLING# It 's a pleasure to join you . @!NEAL-CONAN# Can you help us out with that question ? @!DANIEL-SPERLING# Yes , I can . Part of this discussion about why did the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ advancing very rapidly . Lightweight materials , high-strength steel , composite materials , making vehicles more efficient , making engines more efficient , the hybridization of the power plants of the engines , the better transmissions . So there 's a lot of technology that is becoming available that 's making it easier to reduce the cost , reduce - to improve the efficiency at relatively small cost . And that kind of reflects a little back on that comment about Europe . The truth is , in Europe they 're using smaller cars that have less power , and what we 're going to see in the U.S. with these new standards is that the vehicles are still going to be just as powerful and very likely almost as large . And the improvement is going to be gained mostly by better technology . @!NEAL-CONAN# And just getting back to the caller 's question , though , if this costs - car cost $11,000 back in 2001 , that 's some time ago , it would cost a lot more now , but for a relatively modest increase in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ $1,800 ? Is it going to be worth it ? @!DANIEL-SPERLING# Well , it 's going to be very much worth it . The estimate is for - in 2025 , the extra cost would be about 15 to 18 hunderd dollars per vehicle . But for that vehicle you will save - over the life of that vehicle you will save about $8,000 in fuel savings . So in many ways this is the smartest , best regulation that we 've adopted in a very long time . It 's great not only for the environment , less carbon , less oil imports , but the owners themselves , the drivers themselves save large amounts of money . @!NEAL-CONAN# Joe White , do the car manufacturers come up with that same kind of mathematics ? @!JOSEPH-WHITE# If you administer truth serum to them , no. @(LAUGHTER) @!JOSEPH-WHITE# It depends . I mean it depends , and I do n't - I do n't really - I agree wholeheartedly with Dan Sperling 's main point , which is that the technology in this arena is advancing rapidly , and technology @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was no regulatory push is now getting into the market , and those are all good things . the question is - the auto industry is going to have to innovate here a little bit . They have , a large incentive to prove the government wrong on the cost estimate but prove them wrong on the positive side , in other words to do this more cheaply than 1,800 bucks a car . they 'd rather put that 1,800 bucks in their own pockets . But there are ways to achieve high mileage that are still very expensive , and we can , you know , maybe launch into a discussion of hybrids here , because without a pretty substantial breakthrough in battery technology between now and 2025 , the idea that we 're going to have a substantial number of hybrids or all-electric vehicles to hit these targets may be difficult . @!NEAL-CONAN# Daniel Sperling ? @!DANIEL-SPERLING# Yeah , clearly we 're going to be using more batteries in the vehicles , and electric motors . But the analyses that have been done suggest that even by 2025 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , will not require very many , if any , battery-electric vehicles or fuel-cell vehicles , that it is possible , given these advances in the technology , in the lightweight materials and engines and so on , to achieve that 54-mile-per-gallon , at a number something like that $1,800 . Clearly , electric - if we go to electric vehicles , it 's going to cost more . But that it 's going to come down . Every company is going to make its own decision . This is a very competitive industry now , and so even to say what is the position of the industry is probably a little misleading . When 2018 comes , there are going - there undoubtedly , there are definitely going to be some companies that are beating the standards . And so there 's not going to be the this uniform position at any time into the future , and include with electric vehicles . As you see , Nissan has gone ahead with the Nissan Leaf , the electric , pure electric ; GM with the Volt . Toyota has @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as well . So what we 're seeing really is a real revolution in technology , and it 's really - it 's very uncertain how this is going to play out . But we 're seeing advances that were inconceivable five or six years ago . This is really a dramatic sea change in the industry , in the commercialization of technology , and in the changing consumer purchases . @!NEAL-CONAN# We 're talking about the future of the car business , a future likely to get more fuel efficient based on new regulations . Up next , we 'll talk with a longtime car dealer about how this is going to affect his business . If you 're in the market for a new car , what 's important to you ? 800-989-8255 . Email us , talk @npr.org Stay with us . I 'm Neal Conan . It 's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News . @(SOUNDBITE-OF-MUSIC) @!NEAL-CONAN# This is TALK OF THE NATION . I 'm Neal Conan . We 're talking about the new fuel economy standards , what they mean for carmakers @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ standards , short for Corporate Average Fuel Economy , in 1975 , during the energy crisis . The law required car and light truck makers to nearly double the average fuel economy of their fleets over the next 10 years . And for the most part , they did . After the initial jump , though , mileage stalled during the late ' 80s and ' 90s , even fell a bit as people bought more SUVs and trucks . The CAFE standards were boosted by President George W. Bush in 2007 , again by President Obama in 2009 , one more time this past week , now requiring carmakers to average just over 54 miles per gallon by 2025 , though with all the caveats to that we 've been hearing from our guests . If you 're in the market for a new car , what 's important to you ? 800-989-8255 . Email us , talk @npr.org You can also join the conversation in our website . That 's at npr.org . Just click on TALK OF THE NATION . Our guests are Joseph White , who @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Road column for the Wall Street Journal ; and Daniel Sperling , who directs the Institute of Transportation Studies at the University of California Davis , co-author of " Two Billion Cars : Driving Toward Sustainability . " And of course we think of the car industry and Detroit , but it 's also thousands of car dealers around the country . Dave Westcott is one of them , with more than 30 years in the business . He sells Buicks , GMCs and Suzukis , and joins us now from his dealership in Burlington , North Carolina . Nice to have you with us today . @!DAVE-WESTCOTT# Glad to be here . @!NEAL-CONAN# And I wonder how these new fuel standards and the new cars they will create are going to affect your business . @!DAVE-WESTCOTT# Well , probably a mixed approach . I mean , I 'm sure every car dealer in the country is pleased that the fuel economy keeps increasing because that 's what our customers want . on the other side , we 're concerned . we would prefer maybe a more market-driven approach or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have the consumer tell us what they need rather than the top-down approach . @!NEAL-CONAN# And I looked at some of the sales figures for August , which were generally pretty good , but generally pretty good for pickup trucks . @!DAVE-WESTCOTT# Yeah , I read that the first two or three on that list were pickup trucks last month . So that market has come back and is remaining strong . @!NEAL-CONAN# Now , are people interested in mileage as their first priority ? @!DAVE-WESTCOTT# No , I do n't think so . if you had to list several items , it 's probably - on a list , it 's probably fifth or sixth . Is it a concern ? Do they want to know ? Certainly . But in today 's world , they really want to find a vehicle that 's going to fit their lifestyle , and more importantly , because of all the financial challenges we 've had through the banks and so forth and financing , will find one that they can afford also . @!NEAL-CONAN# So that extra price tag for this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you think ? @!DAVE-WESTCOTT# Yes , it is . I mean even the EPA 's comments during this timeframe , that the price would go up maybe $3,000 , and our concern is that when that price goes up , that 's going to take out seven , eight million people out of the market , that they simply ca n't afford it any longer . @!NEAL-CONAN# that was actually the Car Dealers Association 's figure . The EPA 's number was 1,800 . But I can understand why you would disagree with it . In any case , as you look at the future , hybrids , we were talking about the various brands out there . From your experience , are they selling well ? @!DAVE-WESTCOTT# Well , you know , the hybrid market has remained somewhat constant - one , two percent of the total market . There 's various parts of the country that it 's much higher , just based on the demographics in that area . And if you 've read recently , the Volt has halted production . The - a couple of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ trucks have - they 're going to discontinue those because they do n't sell . And even you mentioned the Leaf a little earlier . they 're not going to hit their sales projections . And it 's a lifestyle . They have to pay quite a bit more money for those products , and if people want to do that , fine ; it 's just - it does n't fit everybody 's lifestyle and the needs that they have . @!NEAL-CONAN# And the tradeoff is the same . Yes , they cost more , but you 're going to save a bundle on gas . @!DAVE-WESTCOTT# Sure , sure . @!NEAL-CONAN# So as far as car dealers , more market-driven approach , come 2017 , do you think your voices are going to be heard in this discussion ? @!DAVE-WESTCOTT# Well , we certainly hope so . I mean we sort of are the - the car dealer is really the grassroots of the industry from the standpoint that we talk to the consumers every day . We know what they want . You know , certainly , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the quality , the reputation of the brand , of the dealer , are very important features . And what - you know , it still is going to be very difficult when you get that consumer that 's used to a larger car having to go to a smaller car , either for price or whatever . You know , they 've got four kids and the dog , and they want to take a trip - still difficult . That 's why the CUV or the midsize CUV is still very popular , probably the most popular segment in the market at this point . @!NEAL-CONAN# Well , Dave Wescott , thanks very much for your time , appreciate it . @!DAVE-WESTCOTT# Sure . @!NEAL-CONAN# Dave Wescott , car dealer . He sells Buicks , GMCs and Suzukis in Burlington , North Carolina , joined us from his dealership there . We 're continuing with Joseph White , who covers the auto industry and writes the Eyes on the Road column for the Wall Street Journal ; and Daniel Sperling , who directs the Institute of Transportation Studies @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Email is talk @npr.org And Joe White , that car dealer 's point of view , we talk to the consumers , we certainly rather wish this was more market-driven . Again if you gave the carmakers truth serum , they would feel the same way ? @!JOSEPH-WHITE# Yeah , they would . Most of them would feel that way . I mean , look , the unspoken thing here is that , you know , we have a 1,230 page regulation that aims for , you know , a positive public policy goal . The five-page way to get to the same place would be to raise gas taxes , you know , somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 cents or maybe a dollar or more to get to something approaching European prices . And European gas prices - and depending on where you 're at - you know , six , seven , eight bucks a gallon equivalent . Those prices have driven a whole bunch of technology and innovation there and a fleet that gets the mileage close , pretty close to the mileage that we 're @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ elaborate too much on the idea - you know , that the idea of raising gas taxes as much as that is heresy in Washington , and very few members of Congress are suicidal enough or politically suicidal enough to do it . But that 's kind of what the dealers and the carmakers mean when they say market-driven. @!NEAL-CONAN# And the other part of this , though , the market is more and more overseas . Of course we all read that GM was selling more cars in China than it did in North America . As that becomes more and more important , these kinds of cars are going to become more important , no ? @!JOSEPH-WHITE# Oh , absolutely . I mean , you know , I 've been sort of holding forth a little bit in the negative here . Now here 's a positive point . To the extent that the carmakers can field , in America , a fleet that is similar in technology and design to the ones that they have to sell in Europe because that 's what the customers want and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ pretty ambitious fuel economy standards of its own , that 's a good thing because they can spread those costs over a much larger fleet , and economies of scale still matter . @!NEAL-CONAN# Let 's get another caller in . Let 's go to Barry , Barry with us from Paragould in Arkansas . @!BARRY# Hi . @!NEAL-CONAN# Hi , you 're on the air , go ahead , please . @!BARRY# Well , no , I was telling the screener earlier - I was asking the screener , ( technical difficulties ) bothers me a little bit . I will probably buy something in the next year , and part of my - part of what I want is better mileage . I 'm more interested in comfort , reliability and cost , but better mileage - but your guest said average savings of 8,000 over the life of the car , and in my mind I was trying to do that calculation . And even if you doubled the mileage , if you drove something now for 16 to 18 miles a gallon , and you went @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ca n't in my mind figure out how much you have to drive in a day to save $8,000 over the life of a car . @!NEAL-CONAN# Daniel Sperling , that was your calculation . @!DANIEL-SPERLING# Yeah , well , that 's the EPA and the California calculations , you know , based on a lot of studies . So , you know , it 's based upon the idea that the - you know , that fuel prices will be somewhere around $4 a gallon . They 're not assuming very high gasoline prices , which could be even higher , which would make this even more cost-effective if that happened . But it 's just based upon the life of the vehicle . Vehicles last a long time , and they consume a lot of fuel . When you do the economic analysis from a consumer perspective , you get a return - you get your money back in about four or five years or so . And then after that it 's , you know , it 's all gravy . The problem we have , the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in an economically rational way . As you hear , even though they 're going to make a lot of money , they do n't - you know , they tend to behave in a way where they want the money back in two or three years . And so we need policy to intervene in some way , which is , as I said , not only good for the environment and the country and the - but also for the consumer themselves . But as ... @!BARRY# I would - I 'm sorry . @!NEAL-CONAN# Go ahead , Barry . @!BARRY# I would argue that - I would argue when it comes to fuel prices and fuel savings , consumers are completely irrational . I mean , I know people that will drive miles to save five cents a gallon for their fuel . @(LAUGHTER) @!NEAL-CONAN# There 's also weird triggers , Joe White . You know , 3.80 a gallon is one thing ; four , horrors . @!JOSEPH-WHITE# Yeah . Well , although I have to say , I mean , it 's interesting it 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with gas prices . I mean , if it 's $4 dollars a gallon in my neighborhood right now in suburban - or in Detroit , in the suburban areas . And I do n't hear anybody screaming and hollering . And , you know , just a few years ago , the world ended when it was $4 , so people have been - become inured , to $4 a gallon gas . But if you talk about the $4.25 or 4.50 , people would be complaining . You know , the whole sort of fuel economy payback thing , it 's interesting . I mean , people tell pollsters , almost unanimously , absolutely , we want the highest possible fuel economy standards . But when they go into the showrooms , the things are a little different . They - the caller suggested , they weigh fuel economy as one of a basket of attributes that are important and comfort and the sound system are sometimes almost as important as max fuel economy . So it 's very difficult to thread for the car marketers , as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Things important for me in a new vehicle , one , four-wheel drive for the snow ; two , it has to be a truck SUV , also for the snow , and you do n't want to get hit in a small car during the winter ; three , high safety rating ; and four , high MPG . I am willing to spend more for a car that has better miles per gallon and would love to see it doubled . Also , I would like to see hybrid small trucks , like Ford Rangers , on the market . I would buy one . And , Dan Sperling , let me turn to you about that third factor he mentioned - high safety rating . Will these new lighter materials mean cars that are inherently less safe ? @!DANIEL-SPERLING# No . In fact , just the opposite . The engineers are getting so good at designing these vehicles in a structural way to make them safer . You know , you look at today 's vehicle and compare it to 10 years ago , 20 years ago @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in any kind of collision , even apart from airbags , just in terms of how they 're structurally designed . You can design a vehicle to be very , very lightweight but also very , very safe . You know , think of the Formula 1 racecars and the Indy racecars , I mean , you know , their drivers survive 200-mile-per-hour collisions . So there 's - safety , I do n't think is an issue here . What is kind of interesting is the market really is changing and shifting . Many - the baby-boomers , you know , my generation , we no longer have the kids around the house . We do n't need the big SUVs , and we 're finding it that it 's much more comfortable , much more convenient and less expensive to have a sedan-type vehicle . We do n't need , you know , that big vehicle . And so we 're seeing a shift away from the urban cowboy pickup phenomenon from the big SUVs . And that 's all contributing , and the auto companies - I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it that way . And so this is - there 's a whole number of factors why the automakers embrace this , and there 's - and that , you know , the changing market was just another one of those . @!NEAL-CONAN# This is an email that bolsters your point from Laurie in California . At age 62 , I just purchased the first new vehicle in my life , a Prius . I routinely average 50 miles a gallon . Growing up as a child in Southern California in the ' 50s , it was common for my family to take a drive as entertainment . With the gas mileage for my beautiful , spunky Prius , the joy of just heading of into the car to take a drive with the sunroof open and the music playing has returned to my life . There 's nothing more fun in driving than bypassing the service station for days at a time . So a little commercial for the Prius there . We 're talking about new fuel economy standards with Daniel Sperling of the Institute for Transportation Studies @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ White , who 's the senior editor at The Wall Street Journal and writes the " Eyes on the Road " column . You 're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News . Let 's go Debbie . Debbie with us from Buford in South Carolina . @!DEBBIE# Yes . Hi , Neal . @!NEAL-CONAN# Hi . @!DEBBIE# I mentioned to the screener that I am in the market for a new car . I 've been looking for a while now , and I 'm really interested in the Chevy Volt . I like what it offers because I commute 100 miles a day . So the Leaf , of which I currently have a lease on , would n't work for me because I 'd run out of fuel , basically , before I could get home . The price is just so cost inhibitive . It 's not even feasible for me to do that . And then in addition to that , I indicated to him , the screener , that I previously had owned , in the ' 80s , a Chevy Sprint @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ different ones . I bought a new one after I started out with a used one . I used to average 60 miles per gallon in the city . It was a three-cylinder motorcycle engine . What I do n't understand is why they eliminated all that technology from back then and did n't continue it on , because we 'd have a wonderful car to turn to right now if we needed it . @!NEAL-CONAN# Daniel Sperling ? @!DANIEL-SPERLING# Well , you know , the challenge for the automakers are that they 're trying to build a vehicle that customers want , and the truth is new car buyers tend to be rather affluent . Only about 30 percent of the population is really buying new cars . And that 's a reality of the market . And that actually is in favor of bringing in the advanced technology . So , you know , the caller before talked about the Volt sales being , you know , so low , but that 's not true in the last few months . The Volt sales have gone up considerably @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ cars - vehicles - top 10 selling vehicles in the country . The percentage is much more like three percent of the overall market , and it 's about five or six percent for cars , are these hybrids . So you know , as this caller just said , yes , the Leaf or pure electric vehicles have limited range , and they probably always will , with the exceptions of a car like a Tesla that spends a lot of money for a big battery . But they 're always going to have limited range . And so it is a limited market , but it 's an attractive market to some people , an urban car . The Volt and the plug-in hybrids , like the plug-in Prius , are very attractive to a lot of people because they do . They 're important not only in terms of saving money , in terms of fuel . It 's the symbolism . You know , you 're not going to the gas station . You 're not supporting the terrorists from the Middle East . You know @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ lot of symbolism here that plays a very important role in people 's purchase decision . @!NEAL-CONAN# Debbie , thanks for the call . @!DEBBIE# Okay . Thank you . @!NEAL-CONAN# And just very briefly , Joe White , there 's the other 95 percent of the industry too . @!JOSEPH-WHITE# Right . Well , go ahead . @!NEAL-CONAN# Well , I was just going to say , it 's fine and dandy to see those fuel efficiency in a very small segment of the market . But they 're going to have to do this to all the cars , right ? @!JOSEPH-WHITE# That 's where the big action is . You know , just a quick example . A mid-sized car is not generally - three , four years ago , max fuel economy on the highway - maximum fuel economy is something in the low 30s . Now it 's something in the low 40s to be competitive . That 's a big deal . That 's where really the action is in this whole thing . It 's in the mainstream . @!NEAL-CONAN# Joseph White , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ time today . When we come back , we 'll be talking with Kathleen Turner about her new role as Molly Ivins . Stay with us . TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News .

@@4124141 @!LEON-PANETTA : Every time I visited the warzone , every time I 've met with troops , reviewed military operations and talked to wounded warriors , I 've been impressed with the fact that everyone , everyone , men and women alike , everyone is committed to doing the job . They 're fighting , and they 're dying together . And the time has come for our policies to recognize that reality . The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and I believe that we must open up service opportunities for women as fully as possible . And therefore today , General Dempsey and I are pleased to announce that we are eliminating the direct ground combat exclusion rule for women . And we are moving forward with the plan to eliminate all unnecessary gender-based barriers to service . Our purpose is to ensure that the mission is carried out by the best qualified and the most capable service members regardless of gender and regardless of creed and beliefs . If members of our military can meet the qualifications for a job - and let me be clear , I 'm not talking about reducing the qualifications @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for the job , then they should have the right to serve regardless of creed or color or gender or sexual orientation . @!NEAL-CONAN# It 's still not exactly clear what this is going to mean . Women are already allowed to serve on most Navy ships , like combat aircraft , to support roles in warzone . Now , each branch of the military will have to decide how to implement new rules where assignments are based on capabilities , not on gender . So women who serve in uniform , how does this change things for you ? Give us a call , 800-989-8255 . Email us : talk @npr.org You can also join the conversation on our website . That 's at npr.org . Click on TALK OF THE NATION . Joining us here in Studio 3A is Lieutenant Colonel Samantha Nerove . She 's been in the U.S. Army since 1988 , served in Operation Desert Storm , in Bosnia and in Iraq . Thanks very much for being with us today . @!SAMANTHA-NEROVE# Thank you . @!NEAL-CONAN# And what does this announcement mean for you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ yay . The argument is over , and it 's time now to implement this new policy . We need to do it without compromising standards , without compromising combat effectiveness . And that 's the key in what our secretary of defense said , is maintain who we are as the strongest fighting force and the strongest , most effective force for good in our history and present day in moving forward . @!NEAL-CONAN# And what would it meant for your career had this been in effect this policy when you signed up ? @!SAMANTHA-NEROVE# Well , funny you ask that because as a young lieutenant over 20 years ago , I applied for Ranger school . I tried to get in 17 times . I submitted the applications , all the forms , and I was denied 17 times . But I wanted to go to Ranger school . I wanted to know everything they knew . I did not want it given to me . I did n't - I had never even thought about lowered standards . I wanted to earn it . I wanted to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the most effective , the most knowledgeable , the best officer I could be . @!NEAL-CONAN# You were clearly not allowed to go to Ranger school . What did you end up doing ? @!SAMANTHA-NEROVE# Well , I was a signal officer , and I was also a paratrooper . I jumped out of airplanes. @!NEAL-CONAN# Perfectly good airplanes. @!SAMANTHA-NEROVE# Perfectly good airplanes . Really , you know , the joke is , did n't say much for my intelligence , but it sure said ... @(LAUGHTER) @!SAMANTHA-NEROVE# ... a lot for my hooah factor . @!NEAL-CONAN# We 're talking about women in combat . You 're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News . And as you think about your sisters in uniform today , this clears a lot of career opportunities for officers and for enlisted as well . @!SAMANTHA-NEROVE# Absolutely , absolutely . What it does is it opens up what had been a glass ceiling because with Ranger school is it 's training , it 's opportunity , and even with promotions because if two people are equal and they come into a promotion @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this way , even if people say , oh , no , we 're not looking at that , well , between a man and a woman if they - if a male soldier has Ranger school , then obviously he has that training , he 's ready for combat , and the woman equal in all other ways does n't have that , which way would we leave for a promotion ? @!NEAL-CONAN# There are also entire areas - infantry for one - where women are now going to eligible . @!SAMANTHA-NEROVE# Yes . And that 's when you give women the opportunities to serve on what is called the front line . But really , where is that front line ? What is a front line now ? That front line moves . Rockets , bombs and bullets , they hit everywhere . I was not a combat armed soldier myself , but I was in 78 mortar attacks . @!NEAL-CONAN# 78 ? @!SAMANTHA-NEROVE# 78 , and that 's a combination between Desert Storm and OIF . But I was n't ... @!NEAL-CONAN# Operation Iraqi Freedom , yeah @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ... @!SAMANTHA-NEROVE# But I was n't on the front line . @!NEAL-CONAN# Well , again , and particularly in Iraq , where that front line was was a fluid thing . @!SAMANTHA-NEROVE# Absolutely . And we have women serving in combat roles now . So in many ways , this is an acknowledgment of what is currently happening . @!NEAL-CONAN# Stay with us . We 're talking about the Defense Department 's decision today to lift the ban on women in combat . Up next , your calls . Women who serve in uniform , what does this change mean for you ? Give us a call , 800-989-8255 . Email us : talk @npr.org Stay with us . I 'm Neal Conan . It 's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News . @(SOUNDBITE-OF-MUSIC) @!NEAL-CONAN# This is TALK OF THE NATION . I 'm Neal Conan . About an hour ago , the secretary of defense , Leon Panetta , made it official . Women , a group that makes up roughly 15 percent of the U.S. military , will no longer be banned from combat . Details @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 've served on the front lines for years already . Today , we want to hear from women who serve in uniform . What does this change mean for you ? 800-989-8255 . Email : Talk @npr.org You can also join the conversation on our website . That 's at npr.org , click on TALK OF THE NATION . Our guest is Army Lieutenant Colonel Samantha Nerove . And let 's see if we get a caller in on the line . This is Cathleen(ph) . Cathleen with us from Naples , Texas . @!CATHLEEN# Hello . I am a United States Navy Vietnam-era vet , and I do not believe this ban should be lifted . I do n't think it 's a good idea . @!NEAL-CONAN# And why is that ? @!CATHLEEN# We serve proudly . We have done our jobs . I know these women on - that wind up on the ( unintelligible ) front lines , but I do not think that it should become standard operation procedures . It 's too close quarters . We are not physically - I do n't believe we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that front line combat situation . I just think it 's wrong . And I sure as heck do n't want to see a bunch of women on my Navy ships . @!NEAL-CONAN# Well , that 's already happened so ... @!CATHLEEN# It 's - yeah , and I still do n't think it 's right . there 's just too much of an opportunity for not good things to happen . @!NEAL-CONAN# Cathleen , thanks very much for the phone call . Appreciate it . @!CATHLEEN# You 're welcome . @!NEAL-CONAN# Colonel Nerove , we heard Secretary Panetta say earlier today qualifications would not be changed . The physical qualifications , presumably , that includes but in terms of the other points about Cathleen 's call . I wonder if you had any comment . @!SAMANTHA-NEROVE# That 's the important thing . Do not change standards . Standards have to be maintained to maintain the United States military as the strongest fighting force in the world . And that 's where it comes to the key point . The comparison still is : Are women as strong as men @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ there are some men who are not as strong other men , some women are not as strong . There are some women are stronger than some men . The comparison needs to stop being about women versus men and vice versa . The comparison needs to be the individual to the standard . If the standard is met , then that individual can do the job . And that 's what our secretary of defense is saying . He has lifted the ban . And he is saying that if a person can do the job , they can now assume that role . @!NEAL-CONAN# Here 's an email from David just to that point . Airborne school had different standards for women in 1978 . Pull-ups were modified . Is that still true ? And if so , is it fair ? Is it still true ? @!SAMANTHA-NEROVE# Let 's see . I went to airborne school in 1989 , and there were different standards . And the women 's PT standard is different than men . @!NEAL-CONAN# OK . Let 's see if we get another caller @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , and Tanya is on the line with us - if I can get this properly done - Tanya is with us from New York City . @!TANYA# That 's right . I served 15 years . I 'm a Vietnam-era vet . When I served in the reserves , I actually trained infantry men in basic training , but I could n't serve in the infantry . Later on , I got my commission . I was airborne qualified . I was a military police commander , but I was blocked from commanding a combat support military police company . And I was also a chemical officer originally in my initial branch - and Reagan at that time , President Reagan closed all maneuver brigade assignments to chemical officers , which compelled me to transfer to the Military Police Corps for leadership - more leadership opportunities . If you 're taken out of a maneuver brigade working at combat armor brigade or infantry brigade , you 're obviously going to be less competitive for promotion if you served in a training brigade , which happens to a lot of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in the United States Army . And then that really hurt me , later because I transferred to the MP Corps but could n't get a combat support company . And at the same time , I was nominated as the junior officer , a top junior officer in my command . I was nominated to teach at West Point . I was invited to apply to the junior officer development program with the joint chiefs of staff . @!NEAL-CONAN# So if I could summarize it , promising officer who was blocked from top command assignments because of her sex . @!TANYA# That 's absolutely it . It comes down to ( unintelligible ) did n't come down to ability . I was physically fit . As the lieutenant colonel said , we had different standards but at the end of the day , we were able to do the same things . And that what needs to happen is this implementation needs to be fair . They need to come up with specific job performance objectives and standards , which does n't exist consistently across the board . And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ people in general , disrespective of gender , is the fact that a lot of the equipment in the military does n't fit smaller people well . You can actually buy better equipment off the shelf . @!NEAL-CONAN# And there 's been a big redesign , I know , of the armored vest so ... @!SAMANTHA-NEROVE# Oh , that is so true . That is - I 'm 5 ' 2 " . I weigh 120 pounds . And not many things have ever fit me . When I was a paratrooper , let 's just say things did n't fit . I made do , but things did n't fit . @!NEAL-CONAN# So those trousers , blouse , automatically , whether you wanted them to or not . @!SAMANTHA-NEROVE# Whether I wanted them to or not , absolutely . @!NEAL-CONAN# All right . Tanya , thanks very much for the call . Hats in the air today with this announcement ? @!TANYA# Yeah . This is a great day for America . It 's great for the military , but it 's better even for America . Thank you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Let 's see . We go next to - this is Kim(ph) , and Kim is on the line from Beaufort , North Carolina . @!KIM# Yes . I was a marine officer on active duty for eight years , and I 've served both in Afghanistan and Iraq . And I agree one of your previous callers that there really is no front line . You know , I 've been engaged in firefights , mortar attacks , et cetera . But one of the big changes that this will lead to is as an officer , I had the opportunity to go through six months of basic infantry officer training . But enlisted Marines do n't have that option . They get four weeks of Marine combat training if they 're female or in a support ( unintelligible ) . And that this would open the door for them to get more effective training . @!NEAL-CONAN# So more effective training and , therefore , more opportunities . @!KIM# More opportunities . And I will also say that while I was at my basic officer course , when I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was actually counseled by my commanding officer when I said that I wanted to be a combat engineer that that probably was n't a good specialty for me because I would n't have an opportunity for promotion since I would n't be able to go to the actual combat engineering side of ( unintelligible ) . @!NEAL-CONAN# And at what rank did you retire ? @!KIM# I was a Marine ( unintelligible ) or ( unintelligible ) . @!NEAL-CONAN# Well , thank you very much for the call . Appreciate it . @!KIM# Thank you . @!NEAL-CONAN# And here 's an email that we have . This from Kenneth(ph) in Fort Wayne , Indiana . What I 've not heard discussed is the risk that women face if captured as prisoners of war , and that 's rape . The threat would appear to be much higher for female prisoners of war than for male POWs . It 's obviously - I believe he 's correct . @!SAMANTHA-NEROVE# And I will take that . I 'll take that question . It is , and that 's something that we face @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ from personal experience , through . When I went to Desert Storm , we did n't know what we were experiencing . I was - I went on the fourth plane that went over . And we did n't know what we were flying into . We did n't know what the threat was . Was that threat there ? Absolutely . I went out - I was in the desert setting up signal sites . And to say that I was not on the front line , I would n't say that that was accurate . I had AK-47s pointed in my face . I stared the barrel of more than one AK-47 because Bedouins did n't want to see women doing anything . Was a threat of capture there ? Was a threat of something terrible ? Yes . Did I know it was there ? Did I make the decision to be there ? Yes . That 's my decision to make . This is America , land of free , home of the brave . @!NEAL-CONAN# You are set to retire from the Army later this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ received in Iraq . @!SAMANTHA-NEROVE# Yes . @!NEAL-CONAN# If when this is implemented , there will be more women with injuries if we go into combat again . That 's also true . @!SAMANTHA-NEROVE# Yes , there will . There will be more men with injuries . There will be women with injuries if we go to war any time . That 's the danger of going to war . This is a volunteer army . Every single one of us make the decision to fight and/or die for our country . And that 's a decision I made when I came into the military . I made the decision to lay down my life for this country . @!NEAL-CONAN# Lieutenant Colonel Samantha Nerove is with us here in Studio 3A . We 're talking about the decision by the Pentagon announced earlier today by the secretary of defense to lift the ban on women serving in combat . As long as they could they meet the qualification , there is no role they can be denied . You 're listening to TALK OF THE NATION coming to you from @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ line . Darren with us from Homer , Alaska . @!DARREN# Hey . Good morning . I just wanted to say I agree with the Pentagon 's recent decision . I just have a few comments in regards to unit cohesion . I spent six years in the Army . And I can just say I realize soldiers are held to a higher standard , but it 's not always the case . And I just - I mean , I 've seen - when a woman walks in the room , soldiers act like college boys . I 've seen affairs . I 've seen relations between officers and the unlisted . I see that happen a lot , and it 's commonly been what Signal Corps , communications medics , the non-front line units that this just goes on . And just see that affecting unit cohesion of the infantry , in particular where to - have women in it . And another comment I had with this in regards to the standard . I know it has n't even worked out yet , but I hear a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ women should be held to the men 's standard for things such as infantry , Ranger , SEALs . They should - men have to do something , like , 35 push-ups and women , the number is a lot less . So I just think that women should be held to men 's standard if they 're going to be in those positions . But I 'm happy that this has happened and I 'm glad to see our military changing . I just think that it has n't been worked out all the way yet . @!NEAL-CONAN# Well , thanks very much for the call . Colonel Nerove , you 've talked about the physical standards issue before . But what about the unit cohesion that he mentioned ? @!SAMANTHA-NEROVE# The unit cohesion issue is something that does need to be addressed , and that becomes a leadership issue . And leadership needs to be aware of this and completely in tuned to what 's happening in the unit and maintain the highest level of standards to ensure that they are not the problems that he addressed . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 've been a proponent of one PT , physical fitness . One standard . Not a men 's standard and a woman 's standard . It should be one standard . That 's my personal take . One standard . @!NEAL-CONAN# Mm-hmm . And if that 's the take , then there will be few , if any women , in the SEALs , Delta Force , that sort of thing . @!SAMANTHA-NEROVE# Well , we have to see about that . @!NEAL-CONAN# we would . @!SAMANTHA-NEROVE# Because if we 're talking about push-ups , back in the day , I was popping out , you know , on a bad day , 70 push-ups . On a good day , 90 push-ups . So , you know , I could do a few push-ups , and there were lots more people like me . So , yeah , maybe we would see a few more . But really , that depends on who wants to do that . Now , the standards really does become an issue . And , you know , John Lilyea , who is one @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ blog site , who 's a friend and a fellow Desert Storm veteran , he also brought up the standards and are we going to - as a military , push too many women into the military just so this is going to look good , just to meet a quota . And I would say the answer has to be absolutely not . We have to maintain a standard . We do n't want to bring women in untrained or too fast as he has talked about in his blog . We need to maintain where we are , the standards and the training . We need to do this right . @!NEAL-CONAN# Here 's an email from Kimberly(ph) : I 'm a female in the Army . I 've been serving honorably for over 22 years . I was in one of the first waves that allowed women into the Patriot missiles , a combat arm MOS . And while we were no initially well-received , after about 10 years , I noticed a significant difference . The younger soldiers were more open to women serving side by @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ long as the women can meet all the rigors and job standards , that they should have all of the same opportunities . For too long , we have had to over perform just to prove that we are at adept at the same job . And let 's see if we can get - this is - another Kimberly(ph) . Kimberly on the line with us from Salt Lake City . @!KIMBERLY# Hello . Sam , it 's so good to hear your voice . I have n't heard from you since 2008 . And I am absolutely thrilled about the ability for women to serve in combat units . it 's absolutely wonderful . I served as a medic in the Army from 2001 to 2005 , and deployed to Iraq at the very beginning of the war . And I remember - go ahead . @!NEAL-CONAN# And where do you know Colonel Nerove from ? @!KIMBERLY# We met in California a few years ago , in 2008 , I believe . @!NEAL-CONAN# You remember ? @!SAMANTHA-NEROVE# Oh , absolutely . Kimberly , wow . And ... @!KIMBERLY# @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . This is great . Kimberly did an amazing bike ride and has done some just fantastic , fantastic work working with soldiers and she stayed involved in the military community even after the military . She was a phenomenal medic sergeant overseas . @!NEAL-CONAN# Kimberly , we just have a few seconds left . And so the last 30 seconds is yours . @!KIMBERLY# Well , I 'd say thanks to ( unintelligible ) . He was a colonel in the Army , who said , you know , in your lifetime , Kimberly , you and my daughter Sarah(ph) could be a Ranger . And I thought there is no way . I 'd never thought in a million years this would be happening . And it 's absolutely amazing . I 'm so excited and so thrilled for my sisters-in-arms. @!NEAL-CONAN# Thank you , Kimberly , very much for the call . Appreciate it . @!KIMBERLY# Thank you . @!NEAL-CONAN# And , Colonel Nerove , thank you very much . @!SAMANTHA-NEROVE# Thank you . I appreciate that . @!NEAL-CONAN# Lieutenant Colonel Samantha Nerove , she 's been @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ other places Operation : Desert Storm , in Bosnia and in Iraq . Tomorrow , it 's TALK OF THE NATION : SCIENCE FRIDAY . Ira Flatow will be here with a look at how dogs went from living in the wild to living in our homes and became man and women 's best friend . It 's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News . I 'm Neal Conan in Washington .

@@4124241 @!DAVE-DAVIES# Well , Billie Jean King , welcome to FRESH AIR . It 's great to have you . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# Thanks , Dave . @!DAVE-DAVIES# You know , I remember when I was a kid , the girls on the block played baseball with us when we were in grade school , and then like when they hit junior high school , then they did n't anymore , and they went on to other things . And you know , you grew up at a time , obviously , when women and girls were n't exactly encouraged to compete in athletics . Talk a little bit about your interest in sports and what kind of encouragement you got from your family . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# Well , I got very , very lucky in the family I was born into because my dad was a total jock . He loved basketball . He was in track and field as a younger man . And my dad being a firefighter could play with my brother or me for hours . And I drove my poor dad crazy and wanted to play catch . Probably the third word we ever learned was ball @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ mommy , ball . We always wanted to play catch . So it makes sense , if you hear my mom 's stories about us children , very young children , why we ended up one being a Major League Baseball player and of course one playing tennis , and both sports have a ball . @!DAVE-DAVIES# You know , when you look at your record in close matches , in deuce , you know , matches in Grand Slam events , it 's remarkable how often you prevailed , which speaks to your mental toughness . How did you prepare mentally for a match when you were moving up , playing competitively ? @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# Visualization we really used a lot . I used - I used to think about everything that could go wrong and then try to picture myself how I would react to it or how I 'd respond to it . For instance , with the wind blowing , like last week at the U.S. Open it was really windy , and it was so hard on the players . So I always thought about the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ about bad line calls . I thought about rain if we had to wait , things that were probably out of my control , and how would I respond to them . And about how I wanted to act . Like they teach in acting , act as if , it 's the same thing in sports . Do you stand up straight ? Do you have your body language speaking in a confident way ? Physically do you - how do you think - because 75 percent of the time when you 're on the court , you 're actually not hitting a ball , and that 's where the champions come through . So I would visualize all these different possibilities . @!DAVE-DAVIES# And that time that you 're not hitting the ball , is it a matter of preparing yourself to hit it ? Is it a matter of carrying yourself in a way that intimidates an opponent ? @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# It 's not about - see , for me , I never thought about the other - I always thought about staying on my side of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the net and trying to get into the other guy 's mind , I thought - I mean , if they wanted to perceive something on my side of the net a certain way , there was nothing I could do about it . But I really did never - I did n't think about intimidating the other player . Everything was getting my own act together , taking - accepting the responsibility for it . And I would always visualize where I 'm going - like if you 're serving , if I were serving , I would visualize - you have to make decisions , Dave . For instance , am I going to hit a topspin serve , or am I going to hit a slice serve , am I going to hit a flat serve , inside-out ? There 's all these choices . And of course you have to decide - you have to make a choice among all these various opportunities . So I would have to decide , and then I would picture where I wanted the ball to land on the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not a target like a dime . And then I would have to make a total commitment . And once I started to toss the ball up to , say , serve , then I had to be in the now . I had to be - I was totally present and just doing , not thinking ahead or behind . And that 's really important . Also if you 've played a bad point , it 's important to shake it off , regroup , think about what you want to do and then go for it . If you 're returning the serve , you want to think about where you 'd like the ball to go on the other side as well . And of course I have two sayings when I teach tennis , or - and that is pressure is a privilege , and champions adapt or adjust . And I try to tell people , particularly young people , that champions in life , all we 're doing is adapting . We adapt as we go through each day . @!DAVE-DAVIES# Describe the state @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the ' 60s and what opportunities were open to women then . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# Well , there were n't very many opportunities for men or women . We basically were amateurs making about $14 a day . If we stayed in a hotel , they might give us $28. @!DAVE-DAVIES# Wow . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# And we had a good life because we played at clubs like the Marion Cricket Club , Philadelphia Germantown , and if you 're in Philadelphia , people that live there , or South Orange , if you live in Northern New Jersey , this was kind of our circuit during the summer . But we were n't making much money , and so I started to complain . And you know , I grew up around the big sports : basketball , football , baseball . And I 'm thinking we should have a professional situation , and we did n't , and I thought how ridiculous is that . @!DAVE-DAVIES# So in 1968 it was , is when they finally let professionals play in Wimbledon , and the prize money between men and women was massively @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ came in , actually before , when we were amateurs , the top women and top men were getting very similar payments to go play . So when the prize money started , they gave us much less , as I mentioned with the Wimbledon example . And there was another challenge . @(LAUGHTER) @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# First we had the challenge of professional tennis , and the next challenge is this disparity , but more importantly the men who owned the tournaments or ran the tournaments started to drop the women 's events entirely , most of the places . When they had us , then - when they did have us play and included us , they gave us about a 12- or 11-to-one ratio of prize money . So this was not fun , you know , fighting for professional tennis , and then the guys decided - but my former husband , Larry King - no , not that Larry King - he ... @(LAUGHTER) @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# I always say that and people always laugh . Larry said when we go professional , the men will squeeze you out @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I said , oh no , they 're my friends , they wo n't do that . He says oh yes they will . And Larry was right . That old-boy network became very , very strong and very , very closed . @!DAVE-DAVIES# So you in effect led a revolt . I mean you and a few other top women ... @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# We had to . @!DAVE-DAVIES# Yeah , explain what you did . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# We were getting desperate . Actually , Larry said to me , he said why do n't you and Rosie Casals go and talk with Gladys Allman(ph) . She 's the one person who owned a magazine and published World Tennis magazine , and she knew all - he said she 'll know all the advertisers , and she 'll know probably a lot of CEOs , which we did n't know , and she 's the kind of person that could get you a sponsorship because she 'll have the right contacts . And he was correct . And Gladys ended up saying let 's - you know , I 'm interested . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ nine of us were called the Original Nine , and that is the birth of women 's professional tennis the way you know it today . We signed a $1 contract with Gladys , and she started to try to get us tournaments . @!DAVE-DAVIES# So you and your fellow players formed the Virginia Slims Tour ... @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# Right , she went - right . @!DAVE-DAVIES# Women 's tennis tournaments , and you advertised . You built it up from the bottom . And how did the tennis establishment react to this upstart venture ? @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# Not happily , and ironically what happened , a year later the USTA started a rival tour against us . So we had two tours going at once . And so all the top talent was divided . The other tour had Chris Evert , Margaret Court , Virginia Wade , Evan Goolagong , all these names that I hoped had gone with us . And so it was a tough time for all of us . But 1973 , and that 's what we 're celebrating this year , it 's the 40-40-40 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Women 's Tennis Association , the WTA. @!DAVE-DAVIES# You know , you 're of course organizing this little revolution at the ripe age of , what , probably 27 , 28 . I mean , this is kind of a remarkable story . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# In my - yeah , my mid-20s. @!DAVE-DAVIES# Right . There 's a turning point here , an amazing meeting that occurred in - right before the 1973 Wimbledon tournament at the Gloucester Hotel in London . Do you want to describe what happened there ? @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# Well , we called a meeting . It was June 20th . It was four days before Wimbledon , just like you said . It was right before . And we somehow were able to get the top players in the same room on June 20th . I had Betty Stove(ph) , who is a wonderful Dutch player , who came along with us on the Virginia Slims Tour . I said Betty - she 's big and strong and intimidating . So I said Betty , lock the doors . Do n't let anybody out . We @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have an association by the time this is over , or we 're not . And we kind of started laughing , and she looked at me and said do n't worry , I 'll lock the doors . So she stood at the back , literally stood there like a security guard , and some of the women did want to leave , and she said no , you ca n't leave . And so we had our vote , and lo and behold everyone actually heard either because I got up there to speak as the leader and said we have to do this , we 've got to be , you know , one voice . And we let them ask questions and just tried to answer and persuade them . So all those things got going right off the bat . @!DAVE-DAVIES# But , you know , the other thing that when about , you know , these top athletes gathering in a hotel room and having this kind of heart-to-heart conversation and making a change , nobody was lawyered up , nobody brought agents . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# No , no , you 'd have agents , coaches , mom , dads . You 're right , it would n't happen today . And , you know , it 's - it was just the players . @!DAVE-DAVIES# We 're speaking with Billie Jean King . She is the subject of a new American Master documentary , which aired Tuesday on PBS stations . You can see it online at the " American Masters " website . And we 'll continue our conversation after this quick break . This is FRESH AIR . @(SOUNDBITE-OF-MUSIC) @!DAVE-DAVIES# This is FRESH AIR , and if you 're just joining us , our guest is Billie Jean King . She 's the subject of a new " American Masters " documentary , which aired this week on PBS stations . It 's available online at the " American Masters " website . Well , this is the 40th anniversary of your match , the Battle of the Sexes , your match with Bobby Riggs . I ca n't imagine that you 're not tired of talking about this , but let @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you to play him , you declined . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# Yes . @!DAVE-DAVIES# Why ? @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# I declined for a couple years because we 'd just started our professional tournaments , women 's professional tennis , and I was getting no sleep . I was working so hard . Remember , you just have to visualize . You 're going to start a tour . There 's no infrastructure . Who 's going to own tournaments ? Who are we going to get to take the risk , the financial risk of owning a tournament ? So all my time was spent trying to get people to do a tournament in different cities with Gladys . Larry and I were very instrumental in helping . And ... @!DAVE-DAVIES# So you had more than a full plate . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# I was learning marketing , entrepreneurship 101A , by the seat of the pants basically , and we 're off and running . It was really hard . And also you have to remember the media that all of us were doing . It was nonstop , morning , noon and night because @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ aspect and marketing aspect to get the word out . So we were just hustling and just working very , very hard at the media aspect , as well . @!DAVE-DAVIES# Sure . So Bobby Riggs convinces Margaret Court to take him on , top-ranked player of the day . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# Yes , he did . @!DAVE-DAVIES# He beats her in straight sets . And then you had a - then you decided you had to do it ? @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# Oh , as soon as Margaret lost I said I knew I had to do it . I mean , it was a no-brainer . I mean , OK , remember Title IX had just been passed the year before , June 23rd , 1972 , which was very important to me and many of us that that passed . And it ended up being one of the most important pieces of legislation of the 20th century , particularly for woman at the time . Even though it talks about no sex discrimination , but we 'd been discriminated against . So I had - I really did n't want @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it would be a good chance for some of the people to start , you know , jumping on the bandwagon to weaken Title IX , to hurt our tour , to hurt women 's sports , all the things that I wanted to - the women 's movement . All these things were a part of it . So it was very , very important that Margaret win , and when Margaret did n't win in May of 1973 , on Mother 's Day , it was called the Mother 's Day Massacre , she lost six-two , six-one , as soon as I found out - we were on our way back from Japan . As soon as I found out in the Hawaii airport , I knew I was definitely going to play Bobby Riggs . I did not have a choice . @!DAVE-DAVIES# All right , so I want to listen to some of the pre-match buildup here . And what we 're going to hear here is a slightly edited montage from the " American Masters " documentary , and we 're going to hear @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ then at the end of it we 'll hear Bobby Riggs with Johnny Carson on " The Tonight Show . " Let 's listen . @(SOUNDBITE-OF-DOCUMENTARY) @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# You know , that I can beat Bobby . I 'm better . @!BOBBY-RIGGS# Well , what makes you think that I wo n't be able to psych you out ... @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# I 'm not Margaret Court . I love pressure . You can try to psych me all you want . a lot 's at stake for women 's lib . I like the idea that I 'm playing for someone else besides myself . @!BOBBY-RIGGS# I 've got 120,000 letters from Bobby 's mob . This is the mob of guys all over the world who wrote and told me they were rooting for me . I would n't let these guys down for the world . @!UNIDENTIFIED-WOMAN# This has the atmosphere of a prize fight . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# It is . That 's exactly what it is. @!BOBBY-RIGGS# Never bet against Bobby Riggs , especially when there 's big money involved . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# He hustles off the court , and I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ matters . @!BOBBY-RIGGS# She 's carrying a banner for the women 's lib . I 'm carrying male is supreme , the male is king , no matter what the difference in age . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# It 's just a bunch of bologna . First of all , people are people , and some are more supreme than others in a different thing . @!UNIDENTIFIED-GROUP# Bobby Riggs , rah , rah , rah. @!JOHNNY-CARSON# Do you like women ? @!BOBBY-RIGGS# I like ' em real good in the bedroom , the kitchen , and I really ... @!JOHNNY-CARSON# You 're a male chauvinist pig . @!DAVE-DAVIES# And that is our guest Billie Jean King 40 years ago with Bobby Riggs before the famed tennis Battle of the Sexes in 1973 . You - that was from the " American Masters " documentary , by the way , which aired Tuesday . You can still get it online at the " American Masters " website . You obviously had a lot of joint appearances together with Bobby Riggs , building up the attention for the - did you feel like you got @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Bobby was one of my heroes . I love history . I knew all the champions in our sport preceding me , and I appreciated him . He had won the Triple Crown at Wimbledon . I knew that the Second World War had actually hurt his career , which I felt bad for him because it did n't allow him to get the recognition he deserved . He was finally at least getting recognition . I do n't know - everybody - I do n't think most people realized what a great champion he had been , even though I would tell them . I do n't think they were really tuned into that at the time because ... @!DAVE-DAVIES# Well yeah , he was 55 when he was doing this thing . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# He was - he was as old as my father , and I told him - I mean for me to beat him meant absolutely nothing athletically , OK , nothing . But it 's what it represented . And when Margaret lost , you know , I did n't know if I was going @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , as far as winning , and she did n't . So I 'm like oh boy . And I - you never underestimate your opponent anyway . I mean , my parents , my dad , oh God that was like - he had two words : always respect your opponent , always , always , always respect them no matter what ; and secondly never , ever underestimate them ever . So these things were just printed in my DNA almost . So here 's a hero of mine . He 's going on and on about women in the bedroom , and keep them pregnant and barefooted and all these things , and I 'm like oh my God . He was funny , but - you know , I like show time . I love entertainment . And being a tennis player you 're a performer . So I got that part . And I thought you know what , Bobby , just go for it . But I 'm going to tell you , I 'm not letting you get under my skin because I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ did Margaret , because from what - I did n't get to see the match against Margaret . I must tell you through this " American Masters " series I got to see it once , and I did n't realize how badly Margaret played . And I felt so sorry for her because we 've all been there , every human being 's been in these situations where you 're not happy , and you do n't do well , and you choke . I mean , athletes , we choke . I mean champions just choke less . She had a horrible day at the office . So I felt so bad . But so it did tee us up , though . I must say it teed us up , the women 's movement , Title IX the year before , all the things that I 've been fighting for forever , equal opportunities for boys and girls . You know , it 's funny because everybody talks about how this divided us . Actually it brought everybody together . It did exactly what I wanted . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ people . Everybody was crazy at this time about this match . @!DAVE-DAVIES# Well , what I wanted to ask you was do you think Bobby Riggs really held these strong beliefs about the role of women , or was this just basically shtick that he developed to get attention and money ? @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# Oh , he - no , he was chauvinistic. he probably went over the top for the match . But - he was a very kind person , but he was chauvinistic , but a great - but a really nice chauvinist . And he and I remained friends up until the day he died from prostate cancer . @!TERRY-GROSS# Billie Jean King will continue her conversation with FRESH AIR contributor Dave Davies in the second half of the show . King is the subject of an " American Masters " documentary that was shown on many PBS stations earlier this week and will be shown on some PBS stations this evening . I 'm Terry Gross , and this is FRESH AIR . @(SOUNDBITE-OF-MUSIC) @!TERRY-GROSS# This is FRESH AIR . I 'm Terry Gross . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Jean King recorded with FRESH AIR contributor Dave Davis . King is the subject of an " American Masters " documentary that was shown earlier this week on many PBS stations and will be shown on some stations tonight . You can also watch it on the " American Masters " website . King won a record 20 Wimbledon titles and led underpaid women players in demanding fairer treatment in professional tennis . Her lucrative endorsement deals were ended when a woman she was having an affair with outed her . When we left off , King was talking about her famous exhibition match with Bobby Riggs , which was named " The Battle of the Sexes . " @!DAVE-DAVIES# So the day the match arrives , and Riggs enters accompanied by a bunch of young women . You enter like Cleopatra carried on a train of muscular guys . This is obviously part of the show . @(LAUGHTER) @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# Loved it . @!DAVE-DAVIES# Yeah , you felt OK about that ? @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# Well , oh yeah , I felt great because it 's show time . And Jerry Perenchio @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ came out he said , I have this Egyptian litter , would , do you think you 'd get in ? I know you 're a feminist , you probably wo n't . I said are you kidding ? It 's show time . This is perfect . Absolutely , I 'll get up here . Let 's have some fun . You know , the crowd deserves a good show . Obviously , I was about ready to die because I 've got to win this match - I mean , you know , the reality of it . But I also , you know , your fans always come first . So I said no , I 'll get on there . And he about fainted . He said you will ? I said yes , of course , I will . It 's show time . Let 's hear little show time here . I want to listen to a little bit of Howard Cosell ... Oh , it 's pathetic . @!DAVE-DAVIES# ... describing your entrance . Let 's listen to this . @!HOWARD-COSELL# It 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ tennis atmosphere ; it 's a happening . And here comes Billie Jean King a very attractive young lady , and should she ever let your hair grow down to her shoulders , took her glasses off , you 'd have somebody vying for a Hollywood screen test . There she is. @(SOUNDBITE-OF-MUSIC) @!DAVE-DAVIES# And that 's how Cosell , reminding us it was 1973 when Billie Jean King played Bobby Riggs in " The Battle of the Sexes . " This whole thing - if you took your glasses off , you know , it 's just sort of remarkable to hear that forty years later . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# It still prevails out there . Not ... @!DAVE-DAVIES# Still out there , huh ? @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# Not to the extent , but it does . @!DAVE-DAVIES# Well , I wanted to ask you this because , you know , as a professional and , you know , there 's a business side of it , did you get people advising you to - I do n't know - where your hair in a Farrah Fawcett do and all that stuff ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ get any advice . they know better with me . I 'm very practical . I actually cut my hair shorter for that match because I did n't want any perspiration around my face . I was playing three out of five sets , I 'd never done that . I did n't know what to expect , so I tried to actually have a little slightly shorter haircut for that and get it shaped the way I wanted . It was shaped the way I wanted . But I basically love my shag the most . But I felt I had to prepare for this match in a way that I had never prepared before . I never played three out five , and this was one-time only , you do n't get another year , next year to come back if it 's a Wimbledon and try to win again . This is a one-shot deal , heavyweight championship ... @!DAVE-DAVIES# Right . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# ... match and this is it . And I told Bobby , I will never play you again . This is it for me @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this means so much to me historically . It represents social justice to me , Bobby . And I told him this before the match , and I will never play you again , this is it . @!DAVE-DAVIES# This is your shot . Well , were you ... @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# This is it . @!DAVE-DAVIES# Were you nervous when it was time to start ? @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# Actually , what happens to me is I get really nervous the farther out I am , I 'm really nervous . And then I start getting into this place in my head which I do not know how I get there . You know , people say well , how do you get there ? I start just trying to feel and visualize the moment , how it 's going to be and how am I going to respond . But you do n't really know how it 's going to be , especially this one-shot deal . The one thing I did do to prepare is I went to the Astrodome and I looked at the top of the building . It @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ many hundreds of feet up it is . I also wanted to make sure I knew the lay of the land , understand how to get around the arena , because nothing is worse than going to a new place and not finding your way and you have to keep trying to talk to the guards . I met all the guards . I knew where all the elevators were . I knew where my locker room was . I knew where the car would come and let us off and where it would pick us up at the end . I mean I go through all these logistics because they 're just as important if you 're not used to an arena , so you do n't get lost or get out of sorts . You do n't want to get out of sorts for those kinds of reasons . That 's the last thing you want on your head . So I did spend a lot of time at the Astrodome the day before though , just to feel it . @!DAVE-DAVIES# Right . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# Because you have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ different than any tennis court I had played on . If you look at the backgrounds where people are sitting and then watch what a real tournament looks like , where they have this blue tarp up , where it 's beautiful , you can see the ball and all that . We had none of that . Look how the lines people are dressed . They 're just people that used to play , you know , they played at clubs and just asked them to be a lines person . @!DAVE-DAVIES# You took care of him in straight sets . But yet , as you know , there 's been an , there was an ESPN story recently suggesting that based on the recollections of somebody who says he saw some - overheard some mob guys saying that Bobby Riggs may have thrown the match to retire gambling debts he had with the mob . Now there 's been a lot written disputing that . People can read that ... @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# That 's a joke . @!DAVE-DAVIES# People can read all that stuff . Yeah . Give me @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ he , first of all , he would never get involved with the mafia because I know Lorne Kuhl , who was his coach during the match , he was like his surrogate son , he was his sidekick . He knew Bobby as well as anybody ever in the history . He 's got Bobby 's museum . He is so upset . And I said - and I 'm not upset . I said do n't worry , you know , people always do things like this . It 's just this , you know , 40 years later , whoopee , why did n't you do it , you know , a week later or why did n't you do it when it was happening ? You know , and secondly Jerry Perenchio is just - who promoted the match - is furious because he goes , it 's ridiculous , you know , they 're just trying to take something away from you because you beat this - beat him . And I know when someone 's tanking , believe me . As an athlete , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you know ? How do you know ? @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# You just know . You can tell when they miss on purpose , you can tell , you just know . I mean I 've seen it happen , I know it , OK ? You know it when you see it as an athlete . And the one thing that everyone should know is that Perenchio had told Bobby you have to win this match because here 's what we 're going to do for your career because Perenchio was his agent as well . He said if you win this one - when you when it , he said to Bobby - we 're going to do $1 million , winner take all . We just did - that 's 100,000 , the one that Bobby and I played . But what we 're going to do next is $1 million , winner take all , and let 's go after Chris Evert or somebody else like Chris . We can go after Evonne Goolagong or somebody else . So they had this all mapped out for Bobby . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ going to go to the next one and the next one and we 're going to keep raising the ante . So they had this all planned , believe me . And so Jerry Perenchio - who is still alive and who I visit with once in a while - he said to me that that ruined his career . So there 's no way that he would 've ever tried to lose that match . @!DAVE-DAVIES# Does it bother you that 40 years later when people hear Billie Jean King 's name , they may not remember that you won 20 Wimbledon titles , but they remember the Bobby Riggs match ? @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# I knew that was going to happen actually at the time , because you could tell that I was going to get the most exposure I was ever going to get in my life . Everyday I leave the apartment in New York City , where I live , I know someone 's probably going to bring up that match . And every day , if I 'm out in public since that match in 1970 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ up to me talking to me about it . Most people , if they 're old enough to have seen it , remember exactly where they were that day . And they tell me their story and it 's very fascinating all the different stories . @!DAVE-DAVIES# I confess I did , I remember where I was . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# See . Where were you ? Were you ... @!DAVE-DAVIES# I was actually , I was in college and I missed the match because I was at a political meeting that night , believe it or not . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# Well , that 's good , at least you 're an activist . @(LAUGHTER) @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# Well , what school were you at ? @!DAVE-DAVIES# The University of Texas . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# Oh , UT ? OK. @!DAVE-DAVIES# Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . We 're speaking with Billie Jean King . She 's the subject of a new " American Masters " documentary , which aired this week on PBS . It 's available at " American Masters " website . We 'll talk more after a quick break . This is FRESH AIR . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Billie Jean King . She 's the subject of an " American Masters " documentary . It aired this week on PBS . It 's still available online at the " American Masters " website . You know , the other thing that happens in this period is , you know , your discovery of - well , you 're dealing with your sexual orientation . You were married to Larry King very young - your then-husband . When did you realize you were gay ? @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# I was trying to figure out what I was . I did n't know if I was bisexual , gay , whatever , when I was going through this period . I had asked Larry for a divorce and he would n't give me a divorce . And we did n't talk - I did n't talk to him about my feelings , though . And I really - that 's how fearful and homophobic I was . So it was just - I was paralyzed and I was just trying to figure things out . And I was starting to get worried @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and I was starting to worry about it . She had been my assistant . So it was a difficult time for me and I did n't know what to do , really . I was lost . It was very different back in the ' 70s than it is now . It was different when I was outed in ' 81 . It just was n't the same as it is now . @!DAVE-DAVIES# You mentioned that you were outed in 1981 , when the woman that you had had this relationship with , Marilyn Barnett , .. @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# Mm-hmm . @!DAVE-DAVIES# ... sought . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# Money , honey . @!DAVE-DAVIES# Yeah . Right . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# It 's about money . @(LAUGHTER) @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# What else is new ? @!DAVE-DAVIES# There was a dispute over property and money and ... @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# Oh , I mean it was just ridiculous . @!DAVE-DAVIES# Right . And this came out in a way that was not of your choosing . And you ended up holding a news conference to kind of air it out and answer questions . And I 'm wondering what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do what you did . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# I got the opposite advice . My lawyer , Dennis Wasser and my publicist , Pat Kingsley , absolutely did not want me to do this . And I said I have to do it . And they said you ca n't do it , it 's never been done . Dennis Wasser , my lawyer , just said no , no . We , just you do n't do these - you just do n't do this . You give them reasons to hurt you when it goes to , you know , it goes to court . And I said well , I do n't really care . You know , the media is important to me , they 've been good to me through the years and I am definitely going to tell the truth , so please , would you do this ? And they said no . So we 're up about 48 hours off and on arguing and discussing and finally I got them to understand that I had to do this no matter what the consequence , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , they said OK , and we suffered through this . It was very difficult . Larry was there and then Larry and I started discussing life and Larry still did n't want to get a divorce . I had all these different things going on . Of course , my poor mom and dad did n't know what hit them . Pat Kingsley had to call them to get them there quickly . @!DAVE-DAVIES# Yeah . How did they react to the idea of appearing in public with you then ? I mean they were at the news conference . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# Well , you know what ? My parents , I , they showed up and I 'll always appreciate the fact they showed up . They did n't - they were not happy . My mother was crying . My dad , we were all suffering . But my parents showed up . They did n't stay home and I 'll always appreciate the fact they stood , they got there . And I knew how hard it was for them , being so homophobic . I knew @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ my parents never would watch my brother and me play that much in sports , they never were in the limelight , they did n't live through us , they had their own lives , very much in love , and that was , I just remember looking at been feeling so bad for them . I felt so bad for Larry and just everybody in my life at the time . It was just a horrible , horrible feeling . @!DAVE-DAVIES# And you said , you know , you felt like you needed to do this for yourself - to kind of publicly ... @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# I needed to do - you know ... @!DAVE-DAVIES# And were you right in the end when it happened ? @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# It really got down to what my parents had actually taught Randy and me about our values . You know , thinking back ( unintelligible ) , why did I do - I had to do it , why ? You know , why ? And it 's very simple , actually . My mom and dad always taught us : to thine @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you know , tell the , you know , just do the right thing even if it 's not popular . And this is one of these times . This is not going to help me be popular . If anything , it could ruin my whole career in life because I was just getting ready to retire and I started to have long-term sponsorship deals for the first time , like lifetime deals . You know , in sports that 's huge when you get older . And we did n't make the big bucks . So I finally - I was going to be able to cash in in a way for me , just for me to get - to finally make some really good money over the long-term . @!DAVE-DAVIES# Sports apparel , that kind of thing ? Companies - Mm-hmm . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# Apparels , you know , the racket deal . I had some other things pending . I had socks . I had - what were some other things ? I had some other things . I ca n't remember right now . @!DAVE-DAVIES# @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ all overnight and I had to start over , basically . And ... @!DAVE-DAVIES# It hurt you financially . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# Oh , yeah . I mean just basically start over . And then Larry and I finally got divorced so that 's another , you know , 50 percent of your net worth goes bye-bye . But that 's fine . You know , I just - you just have to keep , you have to keep going . It was n't fine at the time but ... @!DAVE-DAVIES# Yeah . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# You know , and my partner , Ilana Kloss , you know , she 's been , we 've been together for years and years . So it was hard , it was terrible for her . You know , I really felt the most sorry as time went on for Ilana because of what she had to deal with . And we 've been together what , 34 years . So we 've been together a long time . And Ilana has been through hell with all this . @!DAVE-DAVIES# Our time is short here . I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I mean what do you think of the game today ? About the way women are treated , about the way it 's played ? @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# I wish I could hit like they do . That 's for sure . @(LAUGHTER) @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# it 's fantastic what 's available to the women and to the men . The men still have more opportunities but the majors are equal prize money , which is wonderful . That took - this is actually - Dave , this is actually the 40th year of equal prize money at the U.S. Open , and they were the first . It took us until - it took us 34 more years , until 2007 , to have all four majors equal prize money . But the tennis today - I 'm a big believer in every generation gets better . Serena Williams is the greatest - will be if she continues on the road that she 's on now , being the greatest player ever to have lived in women 's tennis . Her serve is absolutely beautiful . women 's tennis is truly global now @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ cultural challenges in places and the men 's tennis is doing better than ever because of the four guys - Federer , Nadal , Murray - just those three guys are amazing . Djokovic . Those four guys are just simply a cut above the rest . @!DAVE-DAVIES# For so long men have played , you know , best of five sets , women best of three . Does that make any sense ? @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# No , the men should play two out of three because we 're wearing them out . The way the players play today compared to my generation is so much more strenuous , difficult , arduous on their bodies . And they should be playing two out of three . And they will last longer . Therefore they have more years , we get to watch them more , which is what I personally like because I get very hooked into these guys like Federer and Djokovic . They 're just - they 're phenomenal players . Nadal this year is playing out of his mind . I would like them to play two out @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ proven if you win the first set in men 's tennis , you win about 88 percent of the matches . If you win the first set . it 's important to - we , the women , are very happy to play three out of five . We have more body fat than the guys so we 're supposed to be better with endurance sports . OK ? The more , longer you go , the better we 're supposed to be . So the tournaments wo n't do it because it would crowd the programming too much . But I would have the men play two out of three . @!DAVE-DAVIES# Right . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# And save their bodies and let them make more money over more years . @!DAVE-DAVIES# Makes sense . Yeah . Frankly , three good sets is plenty entertaining . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# It 's plenty . @!DAVE-DAVIES# You know , some ballplayers when they retire find it painful to go to the ballpark and not be down there and in uniform . Did you find it hard to give up competing ? @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# I 'm just @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# I was just the opposite . I retired at 40 from tennis and went to the World Team Tennis office the very next day . I had already planned what I was going to do in transition . I call it transition , not retiring . Tennis was not my primary . It was my secondary . It was my platform to try to help equality . So I just moved into World Team Tennis and if you watch a World Team Tennis match , you see my philosophy on life . It 's men and women on the same team , equal contributions by both gender . And when the children come out to watch , he or she sees the socialization among us . They see us working together and we 're in this world together , men and women , and we need to champion each other as humans . And it 's very , very important to do this . @!DAVE-DAVIES# You 've had a lot of knee surgeries . You had double knee replacement , a couple of years ago . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I played about five times this year , but I 've been so busy with the 40/40/40 . You know , the 40th anniversary ... @!DAVE-DAVIES# Right . @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# ... of TWA and equal prize money and the King Riggs and all the media . I 've been so busy this year and with team tennis , you know , we have a lot of new sponsors and we 're in much better shape now . And we have a strategic plan . We have Andy Roddick and Venus Williams have bought into the league . And we 're rocking . So I 've been busier than ever . But yes , I have played tennis five times . I had eight knee operations altogether . The double knee replacement was the greatest thing I ever did . I wish I had n't waited as long as I had . And it provides me to live a life of walking normal again and going up and down stairs . Nothing hurts . I can bend my knees and I can play tennis . I go to the gym and try @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . That 's my big challenge . But I do work out . @!DAVE-DAVIES# Billie Jean King , it 's been great . Thanks so much for speaking with us. @!BILLIE-JEAN-KING# Thank you so much . And I love NPR . I love FRESH AIR . Thank you for all you do to inform us and teach us so we can learn . Thank you so much . @!TERRY-GROSS# Billie Jean King spoke with FRESH AIR contributor Dave Davies . King is the subject of a new " American Masters " documentary . It will be shown on some PBS stations tonight . You can also watch the documentary on the " American Masters " website.

@@4124441 @!MARTHA-RADDATZ# @(Off-camera) President Obama , then and now , talking about problems at the VA . Let 's bring in the Roundtable , former senior White House advisor , David Plouffe , Republican strategist Ana Navarro , GOP pollster and " Daily Beast " contributor Kristen Soltis Anderson and ABC 's Matthew Dowd . Welcome to everybody . Matt , I want to start with you . I know this is personal for you , your two brothers and your son are veterans . Did the President handle this correctly ? @!MATTHEW-DOWD# @(Off-camera) Well , I thought throughout this that there is a quote by Dostoevsky that says , " the degree to civilization in our society can be judged by entering our prisons . " And I 'd like to update that . the degree of compassion in civilization in our society should be judged by how we deal with veterans and the folks that come back with injuries and from war in all of this . the President , he has good intentions . his intentions have been good . And he has done some improvements in all of this , but the way veterans are treated @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ think about it , the unemployment rate is higher than the national average among veterans . We have a health care problem , obviously , in the course of this investigation and now , we also have homeless . The number of veterans , the thousands of veterans that are homeless in this country . @!MATTHEW-DOWD# @(Off-camera) that if you look at this and take a broad perspective on this , you take a look at this first , the number one thing is , is we 've got to quit fighting long wars that seem without end . That 's what 's driving a huge part of this problem that we have here . We 've now been in a war longer than ten years , that 's driving this problem . The other thing is , is there are some things that the government does n't do well and efficiently . And one of those , as we have learned over the last 30 , 40 years , the VA system has never been efficient and never been fully effective . @!MARTHA-RADDATZ# @(Off-camera) And that goes back a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the President has handled this . It took him almost four weeks to come out and say anything really about this . Why and was that the wrong thing to do ? @!DAVID-PLOUFFE# No , I do n't think so . members of the administration had spoke to this . I want to pick up on something Matt said , there have been a lot of improvements . I mean , the President talked about this a lot in ' 08 . I was on the campaign trail with him . And if you look at the effort with the private sector to hire veterans ... @!MARTHA-RADDATZ# @(Off-camera) And they keep talking about those improvements , but this is some ... @!DAVID-PLOUFFE# But that 's the whole story . Right . @!MARTHA-RADDATZ# @(Off-camera) It 's not the whole story . There 's 40 people who allegedly died during , waiting for care . Now , the President , the other day , said he did n't know whether there was a link between that . The IG said maybe not . But should n't the President have been out there @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . And what 's important now , because , you know , Martha , the whole story is important . If you look at satisfaction , by the way , of veterans of the VA , it 's high , ranked most ... @!MARTHA-RADDATZ# @(Voiceover) Once they get in there . @!DAVID-PLOUFFE# Right . But in a lot of places , they are . So we have to look at what happened in Phoenix . If there are other places where this is happening , there 's going to be a thorough investigation . the question really is , do you have confidence in the leadership ? Not just in terms of what happened previously , but to fix this going forward . But Matthew raises other broad points about how we treat veterans . One of the great things to see our private sector companies step up , working with the President and the first lady , they have hired almost one million veterans . This is what we need to do in this country . @!MARTHA-RADDATZ# @(Off-camera) Ana , should Shinseki resign ? @!ANA-NAVARRO# Shinseki should resign or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ President Obama has of this is that there does n't seem to be any urgency and any action that 's being immediately taken and people are frustrated . This is not a scandal that involves political conspiracy , this is a scandal that touches all of us . You 're seeing Democrats come out and calling for Shinseki 's resignation . You 're seeing Democrats comes out and be critical . That 's a very difficult political problem for the President because he was a member of the Veteran Affairs Committee in the Senate , because he made it a big focus of the 2008 campaign , he knew there were problems . And when you take a look at it , it 's a problem of incompetence , it 's a problem of being asleep at the wheel . It 's a problem of lack of leadership and governance . So , yes , it 's a big problem that falls right on his lap . @!MARTHA-RADDATZ# @(Voiceover) Let me go to you first . Yeah , this ca n't just be where the President has words . there @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this is n't just some , you know , it 's a favorite Washington game . Something goes wrong , somebody 's , you know , heads have to roll in order to make it all right . And this is a sort of a structural problem within the VA that is insuring that incentives are misaligned so people believe that making secret wait lists is okay and is the right thing to do . I mean , structurally , what reforms can you make to the VA to insure that this happens again ? And that goes far beyond just sort of a musical chairs of personnel in Washington . @!MARTHA-RADDATZ# @(Off-camera) John Boehner floated the idea of privatizing the VA . Is that an option , do you think ? @!MATTHEW-DOWD# @(Off-camera) Well , what they have to do is they have to have some better hybrid thing . Obviously , veterans , there 's specific injuries , and the reason why the VA was created , ' cause there 's specific injuries that can only be dealt with specifically by certain types of health care . But @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have to wait in line . And my brother , my older brother , who was in the Coast Guard for 22 years , he actually likes the service he gets when he goes to the VA . @!MARTHA-RADDATZ# @(Off-camera) Which is what I was saying to David . @!MATTHEW-DOWD# @(Off-camera) The problem is , he has to wait too long to get in. @!ANA-NAVARRO# There was a very interesting piece in the " New York Times " yesterday by the whistleblower in this case , Sam Foote , a doctor who worked at the VA for 24 years and that 's precisely what he 's recommending , a hybrid type of system . And that 's who I would like , by the way , to be involved in an investigation of the VA , the guy who has been writing letters for years and not the same VA itself . @!MARTHA-RADDATZ# @(Voiceover) Is the people who actually worked , very quickly . @!DAVID-PLOUFFE# First of all , and the VA is using data and technology , they clearly could use more . There ought to be a dashboard @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , everything that 's happening through the whole system . But listen , there 's no doubt , most people would agree the VA needs more funding , given all the people coming out of these wars . This Republican Congress wo n't fund that . They 'll fund tax breaks for oil companies . They wo n't fund our veterans . @!MARTHA-RADDATZ# @(Off-camera) This also seems a problem with ... @!ANA-NAVARRO# David , you know it 's a political problem when you 've lost Charlie Crist. @!MARTHA-RADDATZ# @(Off-camera) Okay , we 're gon na have to wrap this up . @!ANA-NAVARRO# That guy does n't read anything other than polls . @!MARTHA-RADDATZ# @(Off-camera) Okay , thanks to you all . But before we go to our break , our Powerhouse Puzzler . Check out one of our favorite moments from George 's " GMA " interview this week with Angelina Jolie. @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Back in 2005 , you spent a day in Washington . I asked you then if you would ever think about going into politics . You said , no , no , I have way too @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of my skeletons are out . They 're probably all out . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Well , that 's what I ... @!ANGELINA-JOLIE# I do n't know if I have any left . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) You know , it 's almost ten years later , can you reconsider now ? @!ANGELINA-JOLIE# You know , if I thought I 'd be effective , I would . But I 'm not sure if I would ever be taken seriously in that way and be able to be effective . @!MARTHA-RADDATZ# @(Voiceover) So , we do n't know if Angelina will run , but we do know her father , Jon Voigt , played a senator in a 2004 film . So name that film . Back in two minutes to see if the Roundtable , and you , can guess the answer . @!MARTHA-RADDATZ# @(Off-camera) What was the name of the film where Jon Vought played a senator ? Let 's see what you gave up with . @!DAVID-PLOUFFE# One of the Batman movies . @!MARTHA-RADDATZ# @(Off-camera) Oh , sure , yeah . @!ANA-NAVARRO# He played Patrick Lehy ... @!DAVID-PLOUFFE# Right . @!MATTHEW-DOWD# @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " It has nothing to do with this question . " Sum of All Fears " ? @!MARTHA-RADDATZ# @(Off-camera) In other words , they do n't know . The answer , the remake of " The Manchurian Candidate . " @!MARTHA-RADDATZ# @(Voiceover) Back in two minutes . For 5 1/2 years , the powers that be in Washington have treated the people of this state with contempt . And tonight , I have a simple message for all of them , those days are numbered . Yeah , oh , you 're going to get it , Washington powers that be . I feel sorry for whatever jerk has represented Kentucky for these past 30 years . If Mitch McConnell catches a sight of that guy in , say , a mirror , it 's on . @!MARTHA-RADDATZ# @(Off-camera) Stephen Colbert having a little fun with the Mitch McConnell victory this week . And we are back with the Roundtable . And , Ana , I want to start with you and read you one of your fellow Roundtablers , what he tweeted this week after Tuesday 's primary results @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the World Series , but changed the game with moneyball . Tea Party might have lost some elections , but have changed the GOP . " Would you agree with that ? Did they change the GOP ? @!ANA-NAVARRO# Of course , you know , you lose me completely with baseball metaphors. it has been a painful growing process , but this has been a very good week for the Republican Party , because we are bringing candidates out of the primaries that are actually electable. @!ANA-NAVARRO# The Democrats are going to have to have a much tougher time beating folks who are not Todd Akin , who are not Murdoch , who are actually seasoned veteran candidates , who can put on very able general campaigns . @!MARTHA-RADDATZ# @(Off-camera) Okay , Matt , explain your tweet , the baseball metaphor , for , you know , maybe some people . @!MATTHEW-DOWD# @(Off-camera) Well , sure . The metaphor is , is that , basically , you can win by losing . The Oakland As ended up losing the championship series , but actually ended up winning because most people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ because of the Tea Party , the GOP in general , has moved more to the right and has adopted the principles . There 's really not much difference anymore between Tea Party people and the establishment people . They have almost become one . it 's ... @!ANA-NAVARRO# Oh , Matt , tell that to the Tea Party . Listen . This has been , you know , two very different ... @!MATTHEW-DOWD# @(Off-camera) The Tea Party that 's sitting in this city in the halls of power ? @!ANA-NAVARRO# This has been two very different factions going at each other . @!MATTHEW-DOWD# @(Off-camera) Who are now one faction , who are now one faction . @!ANA-NAVARRO# And for a very long time , the mainstream Republicans just sat there and took the pummeling . What we saw this week , was that they woke up finally , they fought back and when they fought back , they won . There is no doubt ... @!DAVID-PLOUFFE# Well , let me say this . I do n't get the celebration . I mean , okay . Maybe it 's a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it . It just got harder for you . @!DAVID-PLOUFFE# No , they 're not witches and , wait , wait , so they 're not witches and defenders of rape . Okay . So maybe they do n't pledge allegiance to all the crazy , but let 's look at these candidates . And let 's look at 2016 . Different electorate , battleground states , all against immigration reform , all denying climate change , all against gay marriage , all against funding things like education and transportation of jobs . This is not people that are going to win , you know , the middle of the electorate or the emerging parts of the electorate . So Matt makes a very good point . The entire ... Wait . You said 2016 ? ( unintelligible ) @!DAVID-PLOUFFE# Yes . Well , @!ANA-NAVARRO# Rick Perry , Jeb Bush , Marco Rubio ... @!MARTHA-RADDATZ# @(Off-camera) Okay . You guys argue amongst yourselves . Yeah , what 's been most exciting about these last few elections is that , a lot of lessons were clearly learned , that you have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . And if you want to win the US Senate , if you want to pick up enough seats to take that majority , which is what Republicans are laser focused on this year , you ca n't just take for granted that you 're going to win seats . So in states where the seat is winnable , potentially in , say , Oregon , we 've put up a safe candidate that 's going to make for an exciting race come November . In a state like Nebraska , that 's kind of a safe Republican seat , you 've got an exciting sort of Tea Party candidate who came out , who may well become a rising star within the party , in Ben Sasse . So whether it 's the Tea Party or the establishment candidates , a lot of good has come out of the last ( unintelligible ) . @!MARTHA-RADDATZ# @(Off-camera) Let 's go to the House race everyone was watching this week and it was Pennsylvania 's 13th district , where Chelsea Clinton 's mother-in-law , Marjorie Margolies , ran and lost , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Clinton even held a fundraiser on her behalf , Margolies behalf . @!MARTHA-RADDATZ# @(Off-camera) What happened there and what does this tell us ? @!DAVID-PLOUFFE# Well , they helped out of , you know , family obligation . You have to help the mother-in-law . that , you know , she represented that district 20 years ago , so a lot 's changed . And this was a very strong Democratic candidate , a young candidate who won the race . I do n't think it says anything about Clinton coattails at all . I just think it was the dynamics in that district . @!MARTHA-RADDATZ# @(Off-camera) And , Matt , I want you , very quickly ' cause we have to move along here , to talk about President Obama tapping Julian Castro to lead the Department of Housing and Urban Development . What does that say or 2016 ? @!MATTHEW-DOWD# @(Off-camera) Well , first of all , what the ... @!MARTHA-RADDATZ# @(Voiceover) No first of alls. @!MATTHEW-DOWD# @(Off-camera) Okay , I do n't understand why Julian Castro would do it . It 's like when you go to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ term , usually nothing good happens out of it . I do n't think he 's going to be benefitted by it . @!MATTHEW-DOWD# @(Voiceover) And I also do n't think , if you look at the VA and we want a manager , I do n't necessarily think you pick Julian Castro to manage the agency when he does n't even manage the city of San Antonio . @!ANA-NAVARRO# He did it because he 's at the end of the road in Texas . I mean , let 's , you know , I like Julian Castro a lot , both brothers are terrific . @!MATTHEW-DOWD# @(Off-camera) But this is , when you go into a cabinet position , it 's not the end of the road . It 's over the cliff . @!ANA-NAVARRO# Right . But he has got nowhere to go in Texas . He could go blue in the face waiting for it to turn blue for him to win statewide . @!MARTHA-RADDATZ# @(Off-camera) Ana , I 'm just going to have to throw my pen at you at some point . Thanks all of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Chairman Martin Dempsey . Plus , on this Memorial Day weekend , an emotional reunion of one incredible band of brothers in our " Sunday Spotlight . "

@@4124541 @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Let 's talk about this now in The Roundtable . We 're joined by Peggy Noonan from " The Wall Street Journal , " CNN 's Van Jones and one of the top teams in political journalism , authors of " Game Change " and " Double Down , " now the managing editors of Bloomberg Politics , Mark Halperin and John Heinemann . Your new program " All Due Respect " premieres tomorrow . And , Mark , let me begin with you . The White House had no choice on Pierson by the end of the day on Tuesday , but they did not want to push her out . @!MARK-HALPERIN# They do n't want , no president wants to fight with the Secret Service , the Pentagon , the intelligence agencies . Those are tough bureaucracies to take on . I would 've preferred the President fired her rather than letting her quit . It was his selection . When people say this is not really his problem , he picked her to run the Secret Service . It is unacceptable to the country . We all respect the individual agents and the job @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be so weak . I would 've preferred he fire her and announced big changes right away . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Especially , Peggy Noonan , after Director Pierson did not reveal that elevator incident when she spent a whole day testifying on Capitol Hill . It was so amazing . She talked and talked and talked in her testimony , then it ends . Then , the " Washington Examiner " and " The Washington Post " come out with this information that she somehow forgot to include about the scariest incident , the President in the elevator , the guy jumping around and he 's got a gun and , apparently , an unfortunate past . One of the things , it seems to me , about the Secret Service story is that it 's not only incredibly dangerous that the service unit is n't working , it 's also got to be turned around quickly . This is not the kind of thing where you can say , you know , eight months from now , we got to have it working . It 's got to be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and , John Heinemann , that is a good point . The White House now , this first review is only in the incidents that have been reported . It 's not about the bottom review . @!JOHN-HEILEMANN# Right . And then , you want to know , what other incidents there are ? There was one much less serious that was reported at Bloomberg last week where , like , someone got backstage at a Congressional black caucus . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) They thought he was a congressman . @!JOHN-HEILEMANN# They thought he was a congressman . There was confusion . They eventually found out and they got him out of there . But , again , how that guy got back there , there are a lot of questions about , that should be discussed in a top to bottom review that goes back historically and then , the question of how you get to the point where people have confidence in whatever the review finds , which is that we 'll never see the results , even if it 's successful , even if it changes are made @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , right , because the way the service operates . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) And Van Jones , another concern , I was struck by this front page story in the " New York Times " this week , talks about blacks seeing flawed shield for President . They quote Congressman Emanuel Cleaver saying , " well , the Secret Service , they 're trying to expose the president . " You hear a lot of that from African-Americans , in particular , this concern that somehow the Secret Service is n't doing all they should be doing for their president . VAN JONES ( CO-HOST OF CNN 'S " CROSSFIRE " ) First of all , that is unfair . I did get a chance to work in the White House . I know how hard this job is . Let 's not forget , if you 're a Secret Service person , you are one second away from history being made in a negative direction your entire time you 're there . This is a very high stress job . People sign up for this job . We have to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the history of African-American leaders being killed in this country , whether you 're talking about Medgar Evers , whether you 're talking about Malcolm X , Martin Luther King . VAN JONES ( CO-HOST OF CNN 'S " CROSSFIRE " ) So there 's a big sensitivity in the black community to , the minute he first announced , every African-American that I knew above the age of 50 said he 's going to be killed . And so there 's a huge concern that this level of shenanigans is going on . The last thing I want to say is this president has been threatened more than any other president and he deserves a better job . I wish that the Secret Service had only the job protecting the president , not all these others . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) And , Peggy , this ties into this broader concern you wrote about this week , the title of your column this week , " Bureaucratic Brazenness , " you know , this loss of confidence in every official who comes out there and tries to calm us down . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that is going on in the executive agencies . To my mind , as I look at this White House six years in , I see a great deal of articulate thought and a great deal of , you know , let 's do some rah-rah , some build the spirit , some this and that , but they do n't seem that good at running the government , at running their own agencies . There have been a series of scandals , as we know , from early days of GSA through the Veterans Administration , which is a very tough mishandling by the government . This latest one is just the Secret Service . It feels like things are n't quite working anymore . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) How big an issue is competence in the midterms ? @!MARK-HALPERIN# it 's a big issue if the Republicans are able to make it one . Because unhappiness with Washington goes to both parties , but the President does run the executive branch . Republicans , I do n't think , have found a way to talk about it and connect it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and it should be something discussed , but I have n't seen any Republican candidate actually draw the lines together in a way that 's that relevant to voters . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) I want to talk more about the midterms when we come back . Got to take a quick break right now . We 'll be back to analyze all the midterms and the latest on 2016 . Does George W. Bush really know what his brother Jeb wants . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Voiceover) And that leads to us our Powerhouse Puzzler on Bush 's grandfather , Senator Prescott Bush . Okay , here 's the question , guys . Name the state he represented in the Senate . Bonus points if you know the year he was first elected . Answer in two minutes . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Okay , who knows their Bush history ? Senator Prescott Bush , which state did he represent ? Let 's see . When was he elected ? @!MARK-HALPERIN# Nutmeg state . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Boy , everybody gets Connecticut and Peggy and Van get 1952 . Excellent . Well done , guys . Excellent @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ No , that 's not what it said . That 's not what it said . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) We 'll be right back . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Voiceover) Back now with our politics buzz board , topping it off just one month from Election Day , ISIS invading campaign airwaves . Tough GOP ads and tight Senate races from New Hampshire to Colorado , like this one in North Carolina from Thom Tillis. @!NARRATOR# While ISIS grew , Obama kept waiting and Kay Hagan kept quiet . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Voiceover) Hagan fired back . North Carolinians need to know his position and he is spineless in this regard . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Voiceover) President Obama talking up the economy and his agenda . @!PRESIDENT-BARACK-O# I 'm not on the ballot this fall , but make no mistake , these policies are on the ballot , every single one of them . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Voiceover) But was it smart to make the midterms an Obama referendum ? GOP candidates pounced and new grandmother Hillary Clinton is hitting the trail . Political reports that she 'll barnstorm key midterm states like Colorado , Iowa and New Hampshire when @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Silver 's team at FiveThirtyEight gives the GOP a 59% chance of retaking the Senate , down one point from last week . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# Back now with The Roundtable . Mark Halperin of Bloomberg , is Nate Silver right to move just an inch away from the Republicans ? @!MARK-HALPERIN# In the world of margins of error , I 'm not sure that 's much of a move . You know , right now , Democrats must change the electorate . the reason you see President Obama injecting his economic record in and you see him attacking Fox News in that same speech is because they need to change the electorate , they need to get the coalition of the ascended , the Obama voters , who do n't normally vote in the midterms , to vote in places like North Carolina and Iowa . Go race by race today , they 've got three of the six in the bag . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Republicans . @!MARK-HALPERIN# Republicans do . And right now they would get the final three . Kansas , though , is a huge problem for the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ though they win six . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Pat Roberts not closing the gap there at all . Van Jones , I have to ask you this . I understand what Mark is saying about energizing the Obama electorate , but it did not seem like a wise move for the President to put his agenda front and center like that . VAN JONES ( CO-HOST OF CNN 'S " CROSSFIRE " ) Well , we 've got to get our base going . The other thing , too , is that we ca n't let the Republicans get away with some of the stuff they 're doing this week , just trying to bash Obama . Hey , you know , government is always your enemy until you need a friend . This Ebola thing is the best argument you can make for the kind of government that we believe in . VAN JONES ( CO-HOST OF CNN 'S " CROSSFIRE " ) A year ago , Ted Cruz shut down America 's government , shut down the CDC over shenanigans . What if that happened this year ? You @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for the fact that they believe that you can take a wrecking ball to America 's government and never pay a price . Obamacare means that 8 million people who could n't have gone to the doctor last year , if they feel sick today , they want , if they 've got Obama , they can go see the doctor . The Democrats have to start talking like that . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) But , Peggy , that does not seem to be top of mind of voters right now and certainly the campaigns , at least the Republican campaigns want to make this ISIS issue front and center . Yeah , there 's ISIS . There 's a bunch of stuff . Look , the Republicans , in some of the close cases , have been very interested in hanging the past six years on their Democratic opponents . that the President meant to help his Democrats out in the field when he said , in his speech the other night , I am not on the ballot but my agenda is . Well , how many Republican senators @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it 's his agenda that we 're voting on ? I do n't think that did him or them a lot of good . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) And we 'll see the president raising money , John Heilemann . We will not see him in the close states . But as you 're gon na write in Bloomberg tomorrow , we will be seeing a lot of both Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton . @!JOHN-HEILEMANN# I mean , it 's really striking . If you think about the races that are in play , President Obama is welcome in virtually none of those states . He will not going to most of these close contested Senate races , some of the governors races , but he 's gon na basically be on the coast raising money . Hillary Clinton is welcome everywhere and will be almost everywhere , and then her husband also welcome everywhere and will be almost everywhere . They can do things . The candidates want them there as a matter of persuasion , as a matter of getting out the vote , and it signifies a kind @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ six years , this has been Barack Obama 's Democratic party . It 's not been the Clintons ' party . They 've been in the wings . This is the moment where they come out and they , more or less , take control of the Democratic Party . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) But they 're gon na have to show some , put some Ws on the board , right ? @!JOHN-HEILEMANN# They are gon na have to do that . @!MARK-HALPERIN# You can even go back longer than six years . Remember , Barack Obama came to national prominence in 2004 . Got elected . What did he do in 2006 ? He campaigned everywhere in the midterms . He went to Missouri . He went to northern Florida . He was welcomed everywhere . And as John 's piece makes clear , right now , there are very few places in this country where there are contested races . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) You 've got more people going to the polls , Van Jones , saying they want to vote and send a message against President Obama , than @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . VAN JONES ( CO-HOST OF CNN 'S " CROSSFIRE " ) Well , that 's true . This president is not as popular as he once was . But he is not wrong . His policies are incredibly popular . You have a Republican party that wo n't raise the minimum wage , that wo n't extend unemployment insurance to active job seekers who just need a little bit more runway . They wo n't be for fair pay for women . They wo n't help on student loans . So the Republican agenda is incredibly unpopular . Just because President Obama is not as popular , we 've got great people out there , like Elizabeth Warren , like Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton , to build that case . that 's important . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# And these races are still close . We 're seeing Jeb Bush out on the trail as well and did hear from his brother , the former president , this week . @!PRESIDENT-GEORGE-W# Yeah , he wants to be president . he 'd be a great president . He understands what it 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ or serving , plus family . He 's seen his dad . He 's seen his brother . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) So a little nudge right there . VAN JONES ( CO-HOST OF CNN 'S " CROSSFIRE " ) You 're talking about you ca n't be seen anywhere . That 's somebody who ca n't be seen anywhere . That 's the president . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) He 's not gon na go out there . Oh , no . His numbers are going up . @!MARK-HALPERIN# Yeah , in the Dallas suburbs . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) A lot of mention of Jeb Bush , he seems to be holding back a little bit . This was the first time the interview with former President George W. Bush that I thought , geez , maybe Jeb is going to go forward . I had been feeling his ambivalence . May I say , Van , the story of next month 's election is on the Republican side , the past six years did n't work and on the Democratic side , huh , we 're not sure the past six years worked @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , is the under meaning of all of it . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# You guys nodding your head when Peggy was talking about Jeb . Oh , they 're polite . @!MARK-HALPERIN# I 've got a piece . John 's writing about the Clintons . I 've got a piece about Jeb coming , about where he stands . And it 's funny , this week he was out impressing people on the campaign trail raising money . There are those who say he 's definitely in . I had three calls from people this week saying he 's in and there are people saying there 's no way he 's running because of three generations of Bush women . The reality is , it 's both more simple and more complicated . He has n't decided , but he is much closer to running than people realize . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) If you have n't decided at this point , are you running ? @!MARK-HALPERIN# Well , he can decide in January . The thing about Jeb Bush is he can decide late . He is a monster fundraiser . He is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's got some work to do on Common Core and immigration , work to do at the grass roots , but in terms of what normally gets you the Republican nomination , elite support and fundraising , he is first among equals in this . VAN JONES ( CO-HOST OF CNN 'S " CROSSFIRE " ) But here 's what you got to say . If you want to put competence on the table , you got a Republican Party with Chris Christie , Ted Cruz , Rand Paul and somebody named Bush . I 'll take that fight in 2016 any day . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Which is why some people , we only have a few seconds left , John Heilemann , which is why some people are talking about your first guest on your program tomorrow , Mitt Romney opening the door just a tiny , tiny bit . @!JOHN-HEILEMANN# Opening the door , but more than a tiny bit . You know , there is a story , Byron York wrote this story this week , had talked to a lot of Romney people and it was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ had cooperation on background from a lot of people in Romney 's world who were saying , yeah , he 's really looking at it . @!JOHN-HEILEMANN# he 's been looking over it more and more seriously over the course of the last few months and he 's more interested today , in some ways , for some of the same reasons that he actually got in the race in 2012 , which was he looks at the field that Van just talked about and says , I do n't think there 's anybody else out there who might be able to win . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) That 's what always drives people . And we got ... @!MARK-HALPERIN# If Jeb runs , he wo n't . But the elites and the money men also like Romney a lot , as much as they like Jeb , so that might be a little interesting to see . No ? @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Can not decide until after January . We got to take a break . Up next , we 're on the front lines of those massive protests in Hong Kong @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it mean for US ties to China ? That and more , and our exclusive interview with Treasury Secretary Jack Lew.

@@4124741 @!ANTHONY-MASON# The town is more than one thousand years old and is said to be the inspiration for the mythic Shangri La. @!VINITA-NAIR# Welcome back to CBS THIS MORNING : SATURDAY . I 'm Vinita Nair. @!ANTHONY-MASON# And I 'm Anthony Mason . Tomorrow night is the Golden Globes . Hollywood 's first major award show . All the big stars will be there . So who 's favorite to take home the gold ? @!VINITA-NAIR# Well , we have one of the nation 's leading authorities on the subject . Tom O'Neil joins us from Los Angeles . He is editor of the showbiz awards website goldderby.com . Tom , good morning . @!TOM-O'NEIL- ( Editor# Good morning . @!VINITA-NAIR# I always feel like the Golden Globes are different from all the other awards show . Why is that ? @!TOM-O'NEIL# Well , Warren Beatty once famously said the Oscars are business but the Globes are fun . And what he meant is that this is the best party in Hollywood every year . It 's the one time when TV and film get together . And they 're really having a good time . Here 's an @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ bottles of champagne drunk in that room as there are stars . @!ANTHONY-MASON# I was going to say , Tom , one of the other big difference is this , the Globes have alcohol , the Oscars do n't , right ? @!TOM-O'NEIL# I know . The Globe-- the Oscars need a little bit of booze to lighten it up , do n't you think ? @!VINITA-NAIR# So the hosts this year are everybody 's favorite , Amy Poehler and Tina Fey . A lot of people were saying Ricky Gervais did a great job . What can we expect from these women this year ? @!TOM-O'NEIL# Well , they 're not going to be as edgy as Ricky was . Of course , they 're a lot more safe , but they 're fun and they 're sexy and they 're NBC stars . This is an NBC Show . So they 're locked in for the long haul . @!ANTHONY-MASON# Tom , the-- the Globes used to get some-- some-- be somewhat maligned because people did n't seem to quite know what the Hollywood Foreign Press Association is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ recent years , have n't they ? @!TOM-O'NEIL# They have . You know , back in-- back in the old days , you could probably-- but it was alleged you could buy a vote with a good Cartier watch or a trip to Vegas , and there are a lot of assorted stories about all that . But these days , there 's a different kind of influence that goes on . For example , Robert Redford will probably lose tomorrow because he did n't play the game . He did n't do a press conference with them . And so there 's that kind of influence going on . @!VINITA-NAIR# Okay . We could talk about the alcohol and drama all day long . Let 's talk about some of the predictions . Let 's talk about best motion picture drama . Who do you think will win the Globe for this ? @!TOM-O'NEIL# this is going to be Gravity 's award . They love blockbusters at the Globes . Avatar won , of course , a few years ago . But at Gold Derby , we have twenty @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and most of them are going with 12 Years A Slave to win here and to sweep the Oscars but I do n't buy it . it 's Gravity . @!ANTHONY-MASON# What about best actress in a drama , Tom ? @!TOM-O'NEIL# that 's going to be Kate Blanchett. she 's destined to win the Oscar . she should win . She will win and she 's going to start her march for victory here . @!VINITA-NAIR# What about Best Actor because it feels like this one is a really tight race based on everything you read ? @!TOM-O'NEIL# It is . Matthew McConaughey is probably out front because he 's redefined himself from surfer dude to serious actor . And that counts . Robert Redford probably should win but he 's just not played the game . @!ANTHONY-MASON# The Globes are interesting because they have a second category for best picture . It 's for comedy or mo-- musical . Who do you see winning that ? @!TOM-O'NEIL# This is a slam dunk for American Hustle to win here . I kind of like The Wolf of Wall Street @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that could sweep the Oscars . It 's got A-list casts . It 's funny and it 's probably going to sweep the Globes. @!VINITA-NAIR# Is there odds on favorite for best actress in a comedy or musical this year ? @!TOM-O'NEIL# Yes . that Amy Adams has to win here because American Hustle is going to win best drama picture . @!ANTHONY-MASON# I heard Amy Adams was just remarkable in that film . What about-- what about best actor in a comedy or Musical , Tom ? @!TOM-O'NEIL# Leo DiCaprio has this . It 's the consolation prize for Wolf of Wall Street . Also , he gives the biggest performance of his career here . And though , the best performance , which is a lot more subtle , is really Joaquin Phoenix . @!VINITA-NAIR# So this is-- obviously the award show , it 's not just about movie , it 's also about TV . So I want to ask you what show you think will win in the best drama series ? @!TOM-O'NEIL# The Globes love new shows . And House of Cards on Netflix , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 've never given any love at all to Breaking Bad so a lot of the critics are saying , come on , finally , catch up with the show but , no , this is House of Cards . @!ANTHONY-MASON# Best TV Comedy , Tom ? @!TOM-O'NEIL# That 's going to be the only new show nominated . This will be Brooklyn Nine-Nine on the Fox Channel . @!ANTHONY-MASON# And lastly , Tom , I mean , what role do you think the Globes ultimately have ? Do they have influence over the Oscars ? Do they tend to predict the Oscars ? @!TOM-O'NEIL# With uncanny accuracy . Eighty percent of the stars who won Oscars over the past twenty years won previously at the Globes for the same roles . @!VINITA-NAIR# Well , hopefully Robert Redford fares a little better than Tom thinks he will fare in the Golden Globes. @!ANTHONY-MASON# It 's going to be so tight , that category . Tom O'Neil , thanks so much for being with us this morning . @!TOM-O'NEIL# Great , thank you . @!ANTHONY-MASON# And now for a final look at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , from Long Island to South Beach , food expert Lee Schrager tells us why he eats at three hundred restaurants a year . I want that job . You 're watching CBS THIS MORNING : SATURDAY . Graphics on Screen : On this date 1908 The Grand Canyon is dedicated as a national monument On this date 1935 Amelia Earhart is the first person to fly solo from Hawaii to California . On this date 1973 MLB approves AL adopting the designated hitter position On this date 2002 The first twenty detainees are transferred to Guantanamo Bay @(ANNOUNCEMENTS) @!VINITA-NAIR# Lee Schrager is the ultimate foodie . He founded two of the country 's top Wine and Food festivals , one here in New York , the other in South Beach , Florida . The Florida festival kicks off on February 20th for its thirteenth year . The four-day star-studded event will feature the best of the culinary world . Lee , good morning . @!LEE-SCHRAGER- ( Foun# Good morning . Good to be here . @!VINITA-NAIR# We 're so excited when we look at this meal in front of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!LEE-SCHRAGER# Well , you 're eating some of the favorite food that I discovered on a road trip that I did this past summer-- @!ANTHONY-MASON# Mm-Hm. @!LEE-SCHRAGER# --and writing my book Fried & True . And these are just a few of my favorites . This is Michelle Bernstein 's tomato and fatty cheese salad-- @!ANTHONY-MASON# Oh , that 's nice . @!LEE-SCHRAGER# --a great fried green tomato . This over here is from my first cookbook and it 's Nigella Lawson 's caramel croissant bread pudding . @!VINITA-NAIR# Hm. @!LEE-SCHRAGER# This over here is a hash brown souffle that is really so easy to make . And when you find out what 's in it , you kind of say , wow , I ca n't imagine it 's going to be good but it 's extraordinary . That 's a tomato pie right there . And this is really probably one of my favorites from Fried & True , Yotam Ottolenghi 's sesame schnitzel . Easy to make-- @!ANTHONY-MASON# Say that again . @!LEE-SCHRAGER# A sesame chicken schnitzel. @!ANTHONY-MASON# I love it . @!LEE-SCHRAGER# Sesame chicken , can @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ chicken that 's been pounded out and breaded ? Is that-- @!LEE-SCHRAGER# Not only is a basically but less . @!VINITA-NAIR# Okay . @!LEE-SCHRAGER# So it 's really-- it's-- it 's a very to eat-- very easy to make dish . It is so delicious , the black and white caraway seeds . It 's a caper mayonnaise sauce . @!ANTHONY-MASON# It 's really good . @!LEE-SCHRAGER# It 's easy to make and it happens to be-- it 's , in my mind , the perfect breakfast food for a drizz-- drizzly morning like we 're having right now . @!ANTHONY-MASON# We mentioned this before but you eat in three restaurants a year ? @!LEE-SCHRAGER# I do n't know that I eat in three hundred restaurants here . I eat out about three hundred times a year , so not three hundred different restaurants . @!ANTHONY-MASON# Got it . @!LEE-SCHRAGER# I have a lot of my favorites. @!ANTHONY-MASON# And all of this is to-- is research . @!LEE-SCHRAGER# Research and a lot of weight watchers . @!VINITA-NAIR# But , you know , I read that you said you 're actually @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ but you tend to order the same things at restaurants . So how do you go about picking the restaurants that are going to be in the festival ? @!LEE-SCHRAGER# Well , I'm-- I 'm really a simple eater and people always think that , you know , they-- they have to impress me . And I-- I mean , nothing impresses me more than a great simple meal . I mean , certainly I enjoy fine dining and white tablecloth dining and trying all the Michelin restaurants and highly rated restaurants . But to me , you know , a roast chicken , a great burger , if you look at the foods that I do at the festivals whether it 'd be in South Beach or New York , things that are popular , the burger bash , the barbecue event-- @!ANTHONY-MASON# Right . @!LEE-SCHRAGER# --or fried chicken event called Chicken Coop , we do a late night dessert party , we do a sushi party . So you really know what I like or you really know what 's my favorite food by looking at the events @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ out-- you-- you started out studying at the Culinary Institute but decided you did n't want to be a chef . @!LEE-SCHRAGER# I-- I really never wanted to be a chef and I-- I say that I went to the CIA Culinary Institute because at that time , thirty something years ago , you did n't have to take an SAT , and I was definitely afraid of taking SATs , I had a passion for food . So I figured no SATs , cooking , what could be bad , knowing that I never wanted to be a chef . I just wanted to have the knowledge so one day I did something foolish like enter into the restaurant industry that I would have that knowledge . @!VINITA-NAIR# When I hear about someone with your title , I immediately assume he must have been doing this his whole life . But in some ways , I mean , you had an entirely separate career for twenty years and then embarked upon this at-- it sounds like forty . @!LEE-SCHRAGER# Actually I went-- I 've always been in the food @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ said , in the beginning , bagging food in a Chinese restaurant . I worked in the supermarket . I worked at a hot dog stand . I worked at Swanson . So I really did , you know , work at every-- @!ANTHONY-MASON# You ran room service for a hotel chain . @!LEE-SCHRAGER# I-- I did run-- run room service for a hotel chain and then became a food and beverage director for Intercontinental Hotels for twenty years . And it was really in 2000 that I joined Southern Wine & Spirits handling corporate communications for the company , and in that role created the festival . @!VINITA-NAIR# I read that there was a handwritten letter , though . You actually sat down and wrote a letter . @!LEE-SCHRAGER# Actually , when I turned forty in 2000 , too early to discuss that . @!ANTHONY-MASON# We wo n't go back there . @!LEE-SCHRAGER# Yeah , yeah , yeah . I actually wrote a letter to Wayne Chaplin who is the COO of Southern Wine & Spirits and said , hey , you know , I 've about been at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sit here for another twenty . I 'm looking for challenge , and I have a feeling that I can bring something to Southern Wine & Spirits-- @!ANTHONY-MASON# Right . @!LEE-SCHRAGER# --which is the nation 's largest distributor of alcohol . And did n't hear from him for a while and a few months later , he called me and said let 's have breakfast . And a few weeks later , got a call that I was hired and I did n't even know quite why I was hired for . @!ANTHONY-MASON# I love-- I love that both of these festivals , the money goes to charity . @!LEE-SCHRAGER# Both of the cha-- festivals , South Beach and New York are not for profits . South Beach benefits the Chaplin School of Hospitality Management at Florida International University . And New York City benefits the Food Bank of New York , which I 'm a board member , and Share Our Strength , a national hunger organization . So hundred percent of net proceeds , Florida 's up to twenty million dollars , and New York just short of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this dish to get your signature on , we want to ask you if you could share this dish with anyone past or present , who would that person be ? @!LEE-SCHRAGER# You know , that 's a tough question . But I have to say after meeting Marci Waldman here this morning who I-- I-- @!ANTHONY-MASON# Marci 's our producer . @!LEE-SCHRAGER# I did n't know , is Marci your produ-- I-- I said this is somebody who I want to share this meal with . This is a real foodie and she gets to meet all these cool people who have signed your plates . And Marci really is somebody who really knows food and appreciates fried chicken for breakfast . @!ANTHONY-MASON# It 's a great choice . @!LEE-SCHRAGER# I will tell you that Marci Waldman is my choice . @!VINITA-NAIR# And now that-- and now that you 've picked her , we can pretty much assure you 'll be back on the show . @!ANTHONY-MASON# Well , a very shrewd move . @!VINITA-NAIR# Thank you so much . @!LEE-SCHRAGER# Thank you . @!VINITA-NAIR# And for more on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ at cbsthismorning. @!ANTHONY-MASON# Up next in our Saturday session , nineteen-year-old singing sensation Jake Bugg , the chart topper will perform songs from his new CD . You 're watching CBS THIS MORNING : SATURDAY . @(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

@@4171141 @ ( Katie Conley and horse ) KATIE CONLEY ( 09:00:08 ) : It did n't seem like it could be real . Like how would this happen to me ? I would never imagine that I 'd be in this position , when I 've worked so hard to have a good life . ( Katie Conley ) LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 09:00:23 ) : It was a baffling case of murder . And she found herself at the center . The shy , young office manager . DAVID KING ( 09:00:30 ) : She was sweet . She was quiet . She was respectful . SHANNON CONLEY ( 09:00:34 ) : We had no idea . No idea this was happening . ( Photos of Mary Yoder ) LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 09:00:37 ) : Her boss and friend , the chiropractor patients loved , poisoned . ( Hospital room ) LIANA HEDGE ( 09:00:42 ) : They had everybody there and nobody could do anything . JANINE KING ( 09:00:45 ) : He said we 've never seen anything like this . Just so many things start gelling to make us suspicious @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and Bill Yoder ) LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 09:00:52 ) : First , police looked at her husband . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:00:54 ) : It always seems to be the spouse . ( Photo of Bill Yoder ) TAMARYN YODER ( 09:00:56 ) : They were sure my father had done this . ( Letter ; photo of Adam Yoder ) LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 09:00:59 ) : Then , a clue led to her son . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:01:01 ) : The poison is in his jeep ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:01:03 ) : Yes . ( Photo of Katie Conley ) LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 09:01:04 ) : So why was she in the interrogation room ? KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 09:01:07 ) : My life is over . VIN CONLEY ( ph ) ( 09:01:09 ) : They 're interrogating her for murder . SHARON MILLS ( 09:01:11 ) : If you could have seen what they put that girl through . LESTER HOLT ( 09:01:13 ) : This deadly case of poison would have a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ much of this made me feel crazy . KATIE CONLEY ( 09:01:21 ) : People are n't waiting for facts to come out . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:01:25 ) : You feel like , all of a sudden , somebody dropped you in the middle of hell and you ca n't find your way out . LESTER HOLT ( 09:01:32 ) : I 'm Lester Holt . And this is DATELINE . Here 's Andrea Canning with Poisoned . ( Photos of Mary Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:01:43 ) : She was the kind of doctor who went above and beyond . KATIE CONLEY ( 09:01:46 ) : The patients loved her . They did n't just see her as a doctor . They saw her as a mentor and as a friend . ( Photos of Mary Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:01:53 ) : And as an example , at sixty years old , Mary Yoder , a popular chiropractor , was the picture of health . JANINE KING ( 09:02:00 ) : She was extremely healthy . SALLIE BAKERT ( @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ KING ( 09:02:02 ) : Yeah . SALLIE BAKERT ( 09:02:02 ) : She ran . JANINE KING ( 09:02:03 ) : Oh , triathlons . SALLIE BAKERT ( 09:02:04 ) : Triathlons . ( Photos of Mary Yoder ; hospital room ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:02:05 ) : Energetic , vibrant , until Mary the doctor was suddenly a patient in the ICU . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:02:14 ) : Throughout the night , she starts coding . The hospital has to bring her back each time . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:02:18 ) : They had every specialist . They had everybody there , trying to figure out what was happening . ( Blood testing equipment ; test tubes ; hospital lab ; pills ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:02:25 ) : One rare blood test would eventually solve the medical mystery . But it opened the door to a new one -- the evil kind . The kind of case , where nothing was what it seemed . KATIE CONLEY ( 09:02:36 ) : It was so surreal . I did n't even @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ; letter ; highway at night ; police car ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:02:42 ) : A surprising romance , an anonymous letter and a twisted trail that would lead to the unlikeliest of suspects . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:02:49 ) : We felt that whoever wrote this letter was probably our killer . SHARON MILLS ( 09:02:53 ) : There are so many twists and turns in this case , someone could write a book and make a lot of money . ( Photos of Mary Yoder ; Sallie Yoder ; Janine King ; Sharon Mills ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:03:00 ) : Mary Yoder was the shining light in her family . She grew up in upstate New York with two brothers and five sisters , including Sallie , Janine and Sharon . ( 09:03:11 ) : What was she like as a sister ? SALLIE BAKERT ( 09:03:13 ) : Loving . JANINE KING ( 09:03:14 ) : A darling . She was always upbeat and full of fun . ( Photos of Mary Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ up for anything , with eclectic hobbies . She was an avid gardener , a musician . Here she is singing a duet with Sallie . ( Home video of Sallie and Mary Yoder singing ; photos of Mary Yoder and Sallie Bakert dancing ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:03:36 ) : And Sallie also got her sister into this . ( 09:03:39 ) : Oh , belly dancing ? SALLIE BAKERT ( 09:03:41 ) : We costumed and choreographed a -- a dance for a local hafla , which -- it 's an Egyptian dance , yeah . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:03:47 ) : Okay . SALLIE BAKERT ( 09:03:47 ) : Yeah . ( Photo of Mary Yoder and Bill ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:03:48 ) : It was in the ' 70s in college when Mary met Bill , who would become her husband . JANINE KING ( 09:03:53 ) : They chose to pursue holistic living and , you know- - you know , healthy lifestyle and spiritual -- SALLIE BAKERT ( 09:04:00 ) : Spiritual growth . JANINE KING ( @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:04:02 ) : The sisters say Bill was more introverted than Mary , and intellectual . JANINE KING ( 09:04:06 ) : He was seemingly very soulful , which was what Mary liked . SHARON MILLS ( 09:04:09 ) : Right . SALLIE BAKERT ( 09:04:09 ) : Yeah . JANINE KING ( 09:04:09 ) : You know , very deep . SALLIE BAKERT ( 09:04:11 ) : Very deep . SHARON MILLS ( 09:04:11 ) : Yes . JANINE KING ( 09:04:11 ) : Deep thinker . ( Photo of Bill Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:04:12 ) : Bill earned a PhD in philosophy and took courses to become a chiropractor , which got his wife thinking . JANINE KING ( 09:04:19 ) : Mary decided , you know , I 'm smart enough . I 'm going to be a chiropractor , too . So at that point then , they , you know , decided they 'd go into business together when they graduated . ( Sign for chiropractic office ; photo of Mary Yoder @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ) : They opened a chiropractic clinic and started a family . Liana is the oldest , born a year after they married . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:04:35 ) : They had started very young and they were two broke kids at that point and they were trying to figure out life . ( Liana Hedge and Tamaryn Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( 09:04:43 ) : Tamaryn is her younger sister . TAMARYN YODER ( 09:04:46 ) : Two years later , I came along . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:04:47 ) : Yeah . And -- TAMARYN YODER ( 09:04:48 ) : And then ten years after me , Adam came . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:04:50 ) : Yeah . My -- TAMARYN YODER ( 09:04:51 ) : We adored him . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:04:52 ) : Yeah . And he was ours . I mean , we -- TAMARYN YODER ( 09:04:55 ) : Mm-Hm . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:04:54 ) : -- he -- we cuddled him , we held him . ( Photo of Mary and Bill Yoder and kids ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . And when Adam was older , he helped out at the family business . Then his girlfriend Katie took his place as office manager . KATIE CONLEY ( 09:05:07 ) : I would schedule patients and greet them . ( Katie Conley ; photo of Mary Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:05:11 ) : Katie had a particularly strong bond with Mary . Considered her a mentor . KATIE CONLEY ( 09:05:16 ) : You could n't help but to like her . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:05:17 ) : Did you feel inspired by her at all ? KATIE CONLEY ( 09:05:19 ) : Yes , I did . She always kept such a positive outlook no matter what was going on or what was happening in her day , and that was really encouraging . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:05:30 ) : Did she do any work on your back ? KATIE CONLEY ( 09:05:33 ) : Yes . I got chiropractic adjustments . Sure . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:05:36 ) : Yeah . ( Photo of pills ; photo of Mary Yoder ) ( Voiceover @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ believer in herbal supplements . She took them herself and recommended them to the people she treated . KATIE CONLEY ( 09:05:44 ) : She was always trying to encourage people to live a better life . ( Photo of Mary and Bill Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:05:47 ) : By 2015 , Mary and Bill started to slow down , thinking about retirement . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:05:52 ) : They were planning their trip of a lifetime . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:05:55 ) : Where were they going to go ? LIANA HEDGE ( 09:05:55 ) : Europe . And that was their plan going up into this trip is let 's decide what our next chapter of life is going to be together . ( Fields ; car on road ; photo of Janine King and Mary Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:06:03 ) : It was also around that time , an afternoon in July , that Mary came to her sister Janine 's house out of the blue . ( 09:06:10 ) : Mary stopped by to see @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , Mary and I would get together periodically . But ne -- never , in all the twenty years that I 'd been there , did she ever just pop in . I was really surprised . And -- but I -- I had the impression she wanted to talk . ( Exterior of residence ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:06:26 ) : But instead Mary cut the visit short and left quickly . JANINE KING ( 09:06:29 ) : And she said , no , no , I -- I got to go . But she said , there 's no reason that we ca n't make a habit of this . And -- and so I said , okay , great . ( Photo of Janine King and Mary Yoder ; exterior of chiropractic office ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:06:39 ) : It all puzzled Janine . She wondered if Mary wanted to confide in her about something but got cold feet . Then just a week later , Mary got sick . Very sick . And it came on fast . Her @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ But Holly Hilts , a patient , noticed something was n't right . HOLLY HILTS ( 09:06:59 ) : She just had redness around her eyes , like when you 're getting a cold but , you know , we just thought , okay , she 's human . She gets sick , too . ( Photo of Mary Yoder ; exterior of hospital ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:07:05 ) : It turned out she was n't just sick . Mary was violently ill , with vomiting and diarrhea . Bill rushed her to the hospital . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:07:14 ) : That 's how I woke up , was the phone call from my father . And he just -- was just on the ph -- just , mom 's really sick . ( Hospital equipment ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:07:22 ) : What was wrong with Mary ? LESTER HOLT ( 09:07:27 ) : When we come back , an illness that was even baffling to doctors . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:07:31 ) : They had everybody there trying to figure @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ anything . KATIE CONLEY ( 09:07:39 ) : It was completely shocking . It was surreal . JANINE KING ( 09:07:43 ) : In our gut , we felt something 's not right . ( ANNOUNCEMENTS ) ( Photos of Mary Yoder ; hospital ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:10:58 ) : Mary Yoder , a successful chiropractor and mother of three , had been feeling perfectly fine when the day began . Now , she was in the ICU fighting for her life . SALLIE BAKERT ( 09:11:09 ) : Tamaryn called me , Mary 's daughter . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:11:12 ) : And told you Mary was sick ? SALLIE BAKERT ( 09:11:13 ) : Yeah , she said , Mary 's in the hospital . And she was desperate on the phone . And I was like -- I was like , well , Mary 's the healthiest woman I know . JANINE KING ( 09:11:20 ) : Exactly . Yeah . SALLIE BAKERT ( 09:11:20 ) : It 's got to be -- I just said , Tamaryn , everything will be fine @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:11:24 ) : But when Mary 's sisters got to the hospital , they realized how bad it was . JANINE KING ( 09:11:29 ) : We went to the hospital . And it was just -- it was crazy . They were -- they had no idea what was wrong . ( Hospital room ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:11:36 ) : Mary 's daughter , Tamaryn , was in the room as her mother started to code . TAMARYN YODER ( 09:11:40 ) : Every time her heart would stop and they would revive her , she would come back and she would be responsive again . And she would -- she was intubated , but she could still mouth " I love you " around it . ( Liana Hedge ; exterior of hospital at night ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:11:52 ) : Daughter Liana , a physician herself , was racing to the hospital as a team of specialists was brought in. ( 09:11:59 ) : You must have felt so helpless , being the doctor @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not there . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:12:04 ) : They had everybody there , trying to figure out what was happening , and nobody -- nobody could do anything . JANINE KING ( 09:12:12 ) : They brought in so many specialists . They had no idea . You know , they just could n't figure out what was wrong with this woman . ( Sharon Mills ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:12:19 ) : Mary 's sister Sharon is a nurse . She was down in Florida getting updates . ( Hospital ) SHARON MILLS ( 09:12:23 ) : Janine said that she had coded three times . And I- - I just knew that was n't good . So I called my husband , who has more experience working in the hospital than I do . And he said , you need to be prepared . This is n't good . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:12:37 ) : This is a medical mystery ? JANINE KING ( 09:12:38 ) : Yeah . SALLIE BAKERT ( 09:12:39 ) : Yes . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:12:38 ) : No @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , here 's what she has . Here 's what how we 're -- SALLIE BAKERT ( 09:12:41 ) : No . JANINE KING ( 09:12:41 ) : No . No . SALLIE BAKERT ( 09:12:42 ) : They did n't know . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:12:43 ) : -- what we 're doing about it ? JANINE KING ( 09:12:43 ) : They had no idea . ( Exterior of hospital at night ; hospital waiting room ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:12:45 ) : A family vigil was under way in the waiting room . And hours later , the horrible news came . ( 09:12:52 ) : And so , it was on July 22nd ? SALLIE BAKERT ( 09:12:55 ) : Yep . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:12:55 ) : 2015 ? SALLIE BAKERT ( 09:12:56 ) : Yes . SHARON MILLS ( 09:12:57 ) : Janine ended up telling me -- calling me and saying , Sharon , she 's gone . And I just remember , like , screaming and banging on the steering wheel . And I said , Janine , sixty-year-old @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:13:10 ) : Katie , the office manager , was there , too . ( 09:13:13 ) : What was the mood like when they all finally learned the news ? KATIE CONLEY ( 09:13:16 ) : They were devastated . It 's unimaginable . ( Katie Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:13:22 ) : Katie , who had always looked up to Mary , said she was heartbroken . KATIE CONLEY ( 09:13:26 ) : It was completely shocking . It was surreal because how could this person who was so full of energy and so vibrant just be gone so suddenly ? TAMARYN YODER ( 09:13:40 ) : I remember at the time saying I do n't understand this . I -- if there had been a car accident or something , that I could understand , but I do n't understand this . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:13:49 ) : How a healthy -- yup . TAMARYN YODER ( 09:13:51 ) : What happened for her body to just quit -- LIANA HEDGE ( 09:13:54 ) : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : -- Because it made no sense at all . ( Exterior of hospital ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:13:59 ) : A few days later , daughter Liana got a call from the medical examiner . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:14:03 ) : And he said , based on the severity of how quickly this illness hit her , and the fact that it looked like it was an infectious cause with a high white blood cell count and her gallbladder being inflamed , we think it 's something called colitis or ascending cholangitis . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:14:20 ) : And this is -- this is what you told your aunts ? LIANA HEDGE ( 09:14:22 ) : This is what I -- yup . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:14:23 ) : That you believed -- LIANA HEDGE ( 09:14:24 ) : Yeah , exactly . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:14:24 ) : The most you had to go on ? TAMARYN YODER ( 09:14:26 ) : Correct . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:14:25 ) : That was -- at that point , that was the most we had . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ) ( 09:14:28 ) : It looked like Mary had died from some kind of serious infection . JANINE KING ( 09:14:32 ) : So then we 're thinking , okay , well , it was natural causes . ( Sharon Mills ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:14:37 ) : Sharon , the nurse , was confused . SHARON MILLS ( 09:14:40 ) : I said , it makes no sense to me . But she told us that , so we accepted it . And it was n't easy because we did n't understand it . ( Morgue ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:14:49 ) : Sharon suggested to Liana that the medical examiner should do toxicology tests . Just in case . SHARON MILLS ( 09:14:55 ) : She did say that they are going to do the toxicology tests that you asked for . And I said , thank you . ( Town ; Janine King ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:15:02 ) : A month went by . The toxicology report had n't come back . That 's when Janine @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ He told her something that surprised her -- they had already decided it was not an infection . JANINE KING ( 09:15:15 ) : He goes , we have no idea how she died . He said , so many specialists were called in . We 'd never seen anything like this in all of our years of practicing . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:15:22 ) : You had no idea about any of this ? JANINE KING ( 09:15:23 ) : No . No . SHARON MILLS ( 09:15:24 ) : No . JANINE KING ( 09:15:25 ) : And so we -- that 's -- just so many things start gelling to make us suspicious . ( Medical equipment ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:15:30 ) : So the medical mystery was only deepening . JANINE KING ( 09:15:33 ) : We always -- from the moment Mary died , in our gut , we felt something 's not right . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:15:39 ) : Something 's not right in what way ? Like , foul play -- JANINE KING ( 09:15:41 ) : Well @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : -- or that something went wrong ? JANINE KING ( 09:15:45 ) : Just a feel -- a sense that , yeah , so -- something 's not right here . SALLIE BAKERT ( 09:15:47 ) : Something 's not right . ( Lab ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:15:48 ) : It would turn out something was n't right at all . ( Lab ; pills ) LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 09:15:54 ) : Coming up , doctors make a discovery , a mysterious medication . DR . JEANNA MARRAFFA ( 09:16:00 ) : There 's a safe and effective dose , and then a toxic dose . JANINE KING ( 09:16:04 ) : We have to find out how it got into her system . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:16:06 ) : Did somebody deliberately give this to Mary ? Did somebody poison Mary ? ( Photo of Mary Yoder ) LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 09:16:10 ) : When DATELINE continues . ( ANNOUNCEMENTS ) ( Photo of Mary Yoder ; town ; Katie Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ death , sadness rippled through her upstate New York community . As office manager , Katie had the grim task of calling Mary 's patients with the news . ( 09:19:58 ) : What were the responses you were getting from people ? KATIE CONLEY ( 09:20:01 ) : People were shocked . For her to just be gone so suddenly and after such a brief illness that people could n't believe it . And I did n't have any answers for them . ( Holly Hilts ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:20:11 ) : One of the people Katie spoke with was Holly Hilts , the patient who saw Mary the day she fell ill . HOLLY HILTS ( 09:20:17 ) : I 'm like , what ? How can that be ? For somebody as -- that is that healthy ? ( Photo of Mary Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:20:22 ) : Mary 's family was devastated . But at the memorial service , her sisters thought Bill was handling the loss better than they expected . SHARON MILLS ( 09:20:31 ) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ long hug . I was sobbing . And it felt and sounded like he was sobbing , too . And when we broke from our embrace , there were no tears . But there were other people there that day that were saying , oh , yeah , Bill -- oh , he was crying . He was sobbing hard . ( Sallie Bakert , Janine King and Sharon Mills ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:20:52 ) : And as time passed -- JANINE KING ( 09:20:54 ) : We assumed that our brother-in-law was going to completely fall apart without Mary . And he really just did n't seem like the grieving partner that , you know , we were expecting . ( Sallie Bakert , Janine King and Sharon Mills ; lab ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:21:05 ) : The grieving sisters had so many questions . And the medical examiner was still working , trying to figure out Mary 's cause of death . It was proving difficult . DR . JEANNA MARRAFFA ( 09:21:15 ) : They really have the ability @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:21:18 ) : Doctor Jeanna Marraffa is an assistant clinical director for the Upstate New York Poison Center . When the ME only had one blood sample left , he contacted her . DR . JEANNA MARRAFFA ( 09:21:27 ) : And that was really what they came to me with , is there anything that you could think of that we could test for ? ( Lab ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:21:34 ) : It was a roll of the dice , but she suggested checking for one particular drug . DR . JEANNA MARRAFFA ( 09:21:39 ) : Her symptoms really led me down the line of thinking that colchicine was very high on my list as potential causes . ( Bottle of Colchicine pills ; pills ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:21:48 ) : Colchicine is a drug that 's used to treat the disease gout , a form of arthritis . In a high enough dose it becomes toxic . DR . JEANNA MARRAFFA ( 09:21:56 ) : And that toxic dose can result in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ( Lab ; Liana Hedge ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:22:04 ) : And the final test proved it . The medical examiner called Mary 's daughter , Liana , the physician in the family . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:22:11 ) : He 's like , okay , we -- we did get a cause of death back , it 's colchicine . And I said , what ? He 's , like -- he repeated , it 's colchicine . I 'm , like , the gout medication ? I was completely confused . I mean , the only capacity that I knew that was as a short-term acute treatment for gout . I -- TAMARYN YODER ( 09:22:32 ) : Which we knew our mother never had it . LESTER HOLT ( 09:22:34 ) : She did n't have . JANINE KING ( 09:22:35 ) : I was like , what ? Well , how did she get it ? How did she -- and she did n't know . So I said , so she was poisoned , then ? And she said , well @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ got into her system . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:22:46 ) : Where 's your mind going now ? Are you thinking foul play ? SHARON MILLS ( 09:22:49 ) : I was the first one to take that leap . I was the first one . It 's -- I was just getting all these bits and pieces of information , and it was not making sense . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:22:57 ) : Did you feel like you were playing armchair detectives trying to -- JANINE KING ( 09:23:00 ) : Sharon and I was . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:23:01 ) : -- cut through everything ? JANINE KING ( 09:23:02 ) : Yeah . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:23:02 ) : Figure out what really happened ? JANINE KING ( 09:23:04 ) : Yeah , yeah . ( Sunset ; Sharon Mills ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:23:05 ) : Weeks went by . Then three months after Mary 's death , Sharon decided to call a real detective . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:23:12 ) : We get a phone call . ( Robert Nelson ) ANDREA @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sisters spoke to Lieutenant Robert Nelson . He 's a detective with the Oneida County Sheriff 's Office . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:23:20 ) : She asked if we would get involved in the investigation to determine how Mary got this in her system . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:23:25 ) : Do you feel that this is something that would fall under your purview ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:23:29 ) : Yes . At this point , we 're like , well , we need to get a hold of the ME 's office to see exactly , you know , what they have , what did they rule as the cause of death . ( Robert Nelson ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:23:36 ) : The detective learned there was nothing in Mary 's medical history to explain why she 'd be taking colchicine. ( 09:23:42 ) : So why would she have this poison , this drug , in her system ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:23:46 ) : That they did n't know . That 's when they started looking at different things . She took @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ( Photo of Adam Yoder and Katie Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:23:54 ) : Mary 's son Adam and Katie gathered her supplements to have them sent for testing . ( 09:23:59 ) : Anything there ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:24:00 ) : Never -- we finally got the test back from there , and nothing from there . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:24:02 ) : Negative ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:24:03 ) : Negative . ( Garden ; photo of Mary Yoder tending her garden ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:24:04 ) : But , there was another possibility , too . Colchicine comes from a plant called autumn crocus . And Mary was an avid gardener . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:24:12 ) : Autumn crocus can be mistaken for wild garlic . So if she had taken the -- the leaves off or boiled the bulbs in water , and somehow ingested it that way , that would cause the -- the colchicine toxicity . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:24:24 ) : This is a deadly plant ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:24:25 ) : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : Did she have autumn crocus in her garden ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:24:28 ) : No . They looked at that . And there was none of those plants in the garden . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:24:31 ) : How much colchicine do you have to ingest for it to be deadly ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:24:35 ) : If you 're talking gout medicine , it 's like you would have to take anywhere from forty to sixty pills , depending on your size . And it -- it -- you 'd have to take it all at once to be -- to be a lethal dose . ( Photo of Mary Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:24:46 ) : If Mary did take that many pills , maybe she did it on purpose . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:24:51 ) : We talked to family . We started talking to people . We do n't believe it 's suicide . ( Photo of Mary Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:24:55 ) : That left one other scenario , a disturbing one . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be poisoned , given just -- TAMARYN YODER ( 09:25:01 ) : Never . No . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:25:03 ) : The violent nature of it ? TAMARYN YODER ( 09:25:06 ) : No , because the thought of anybody doing that to her , just -- LESTER HOLT ( 09:25:10 ) : To her . ( Robert Nelson ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:25:11 ) : But that 's exactly what the detective was considering . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:25:15 ) : Did somebody poison Mary ? Did somebody deliberately give this to Mary ? We sat down with the ME 's office and went through everything , all their -- the autopsy . At that point , we were looking at it as a homicide . ( Photo of Mary Yoder ; exterior of residence ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:25:24 ) : Now the hunt for a killer was on . And some of Mary 's sisters thought they knew where investigators should start . LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 09:25:34 ) : Coming up -- JANINE KING ( 09:25:35 ) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ( Photo of Mary and Bill Yoder ; car on road at night ) LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 09:25:37 ) : Mary 's husband Bill , and a mysterious other woman . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:25:41 ) : We began to wonder was there a relationship beforehand ? That would have been a motive . Then we would 've had to say , well , Bill now has a motive for this . ( ANNOUNCEMENTS ) ( Town ; photo of Mary Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:29:30 ) : It was four months after Mary Yoder 's death , and investigators told the family they were convinced Mary had been murdered . ( 09:29:38 ) : What is that moment like when your mom is now -- LIANA HEDGE ( 09:29:42 ) : Why ? ANDREA CANNING ( 09:29:42 ) : -- a murder victim . TAMARYN YODER ( 09:29:43 ) : There -- there is n't even words for it . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:29:45 ) : That was just -- TAMARYN YODER ( 09:29:46 ) : Your world flips upside down and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ down is n't up anymore . So that was terrifying . ( Liana Hedge and Tamaryn Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:29:54 ) : And Mary 's daughters believed their mother had n't just been killed . She 'd practically been tortured . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:30:00 ) : Colchicine . One of the hallmarks of it , it stops your heart . It breaks it . And it breaks it over and over and over again . ( Robert Nelson ; Colchicine bottle ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:30:10 ) : Detective Robert Nelson was trying to figure out who might have used the drug to poison Mary . ( 09:30:16 ) : There were actually a couple of TV shows that kind of echoed this case . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:30:20 ) : Yes . There was the TV show House , which had colchicine . ( Excerpt from House ) ANDREA CANNING ( 09:30:28 ) : But this is real-life now ? ( Chiropractor 's office ; photo of Mary Yoder ) ROBERT NELSON ( 09:30:29 ) : Yes . Did a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do n't know about ? Did they give Mary , you know , something to eat ? ANDREA CANNING ( 09:30:35 ) : Any obvious suspects , potential suspects ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:30:38 ) : No , not at first . ( Robert Nelson ; photo of Mary and Bill Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:30:39 ) : But Detective Nelson had to start somewhere . What about the person closest to Mary , her husband ? ( 09:30:46 ) : What was it that was leading you in Bill 's direction ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:30:49 ) : At this point , basically , just because he was the husband . In these types of cases , it always seems to be the spouse is the one responsible if it 's a poisoning case . ( Sallie Bakert , Janine King and Sharon Mills ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:30:56 ) : Mary 's sisters had known Bill for decades . ( 09:30:58 ) : If there were problems in the marriage , was Mary the type to share with her sisters ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ frustration in certain situations . But she tried very hard never to say anything negative about Bill . JANINE KING ( 09:31:11 ) : Yeah . SALLIE BAKERT ( 09:31:11 ) : Yeah , she always put a positive spin on anything if she could . ( Photo of Bill Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:31:15 ) : Still , her sisters never forgot a story Mary told them . It happened before the time of her wedding thirty eight years earlier . SALLIE BAKERT ( 09:31:22 ) : They 're out in my parents ' yard and Bill says to her , you know this is to be an open marriage , right ? And she was taken aback . She said to me , I had the strength to tell him , no , Bill , we 're going to have to not get married , you know , if you ca n't commit to monogamy . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:31:40 ) : He backed down ? SALLIE BAKERT ( 09:31:41 ) : Yeah , he came back and said , okay , I thought @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Bill Yoder ; car on highway at night ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:31:46 ) : But did he ? It was no secret that in the years that followed Bill would often disappear on weekends . SHARON MILLS ( 09:31:52 ) : He 'd take night trips to Albany , weekends , to be by himself , he said , to write . ( Janine King ; photo of Janine King and Mary Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:31:57 ) : Janine kept wondering about that day Mary dropped by her house out of the blue . Did she want to tell her something about her marriage ? JANINE KING ( 09:32:04 ) : she wanted to talk or she wanted to open up the door , you know , for us to start -- start talking about something . ( Bill Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:32:10 ) : The sisters also thought back to Bill 's behavior . How he seemed so unemotional to them after Mary 's death . JANINE KING ( 09:32:17 ) : Well , some @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was that they did n't know what she died of exactly . But he had her cremated very quickly . He had her phone turned off very quickly . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:32:27 ) : Too quickly ? JANINE KING ( 09:32:27 ) : Yeah , too quickly . ( Photo of Bill and Mary Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:32:28 ) : Still , the sisters say the marriage looked pretty solid in recent years . JANINE KING ( 09:32:33 ) : Our brother-in-law seemingly became a really good husband . You know , he was helpful in ways and letting her do things she wanted to do . I was just thinking , well , gee , Bill has really come a long way . ( Photo of Mary Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:32:46 ) : And certainly no one wanted to believe that Mary 's own husband would harm her . JANINE KING ( 09:32:51 ) : When I was interviewed , I was not ready to say that I suspect my brother-in-law . Because I really had no real @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ human being , I 'm not going to accuse him of something without evidence . ( Robert Nelson ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:33:01 ) : Any fair-minded detective would need that evidence , too -- along with a clear idea of a motive . ( 09:33:08 ) : Did Bill stand to inherit everything that was Mary 's , everything in the marriage ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:33:12 ) : They had the business together , but there was no- - no large sums of money that Bill would have gotten if -- of Mary 's death . ( Photo of Bill Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:33:19 ) : Still authorities kept tabs on Bill , monitoring his behavior. ( 09:33:24 ) : How did you take that , knowing that the police were looking at your dad ? LIANA HEDGE ( 09:33:28 ) : It 's terrifying . TAMARYN YODER ( 09:33:30 ) : Yup . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:33:31 ) : But we did n't understand , because there was nothing in their relationship that indicated that there was any trouble @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it was possible just -- TAMARYN YODER ( 09:33:41 ) : We did n't know if our father was involved . We did n't know if it was a complete stranger . We had -- LIANA HEDGE ( 09:33:49 ) : No idea . TAMARYN YODER ( 09:33:49 ) : -- absolutely no idea . ( Liana Hedge and Tamaryn Yoder ; exterior of police station ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:33:52 ) : Detectives told the siblings not to talk about the investigation , especially not to their father . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:33:58 ) : Well , we were n't letting him in on the fact that -- TAMARYN YODER ( 09:33:59 ) : Right . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:34:00 ) : -- we had been talking with the investigators . ( Exterior of police station ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:34:02 ) : They eventually called Bill in for an interview . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:34:05 ) : Bill 's not an emotional person . So he did n't seem very upset . You know , he did -- he was n't very @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : He 's not shedding any tears or -- ROBERT NELSON ( 09:34:14 ) : Well , we 're not speaking to Bill until five months later , after Mary 's death . ( Photo of Bill and Mary Yoder ; interior of chiropractic office ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:34:18 ) : Bill spoke to them for five hours . And he gave investigators permission to search the couple 's chiropractic business , where deputies collected computers , a typewriter and a fax machine . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:34:30 ) : He signed a consent . We went to the office . And he was very helpful . I mean he -- he was very forthcoming , he gave us everything we asked for . ( Exterior of police station ; photo of Mary and Bill Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:34:36 ) : And they had a lot of questions for Bill . At the top of the list ? Something they 'd learned while they were tracking him . It turns out Bill was already dating again . In fact , it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ KING ( 09:34:48 ) : Shortly after Mary died , my mother said , why is he always going out of town ? And I said , I do n't -- I do n't know , mom , maybe he needs some time or whatever . And she says , he 's got a girlfriend . You know -- SHARON MILLS ( 09:35:01 ) : This is coming from a ninety-two-year-old woman -- JANINE KING ( 09:35:02 ) : Yeah . SHARON MILLS ( 09:35:02 ) : -- ninety-one-year-old woman . JANINE KING ( 09:35:04 ) : And she goes , I 'm not feeling right about this . ( Robert Nelson ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:35:06 ) : Detective Nelson was the one to tell Sharon their mom was right . SHARON MILLS ( 09:35:10 ) : He told me that they had in fact found Bill to be with another woman . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:35:16 ) : Did he tell you who the woman was ? SHARON MILLS ( 09:35:17 ) : No . He did not . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:35:19 ) : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? ANDREA CANNING ( 09:35:21 ) : Why is it important to determine now if this relationship started before Mary 's death ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:35:27 ) : If it was before Mary 's death , obviously , that would have been a motive . Then we would have had to say , well , Bill now has a motive for this . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:35:33 ) : That 's kind of a big deal . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:35:35 ) : Yes . And that came up , that was an obvious red flag and we were very concerned about it . ( Police interview room ; photo of Bill and Mary Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:35:39 ) : In his interview with detectives , Bill said he had not cheated on his wife . The relationship began after Mary died . And phone records seemed to confirm it . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:35:49 ) : We were able to verify all this information that he was n't having phone conversation , text messages with her , prior to Mary 's death . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ) ( 09:35:56 ) : So the obvious suspect , the husband with a new romance , did n't seem so obvious after all . But the detective had a new lead . A big one . And it would change everything . LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 09:36:10 ) : Coming up -- ANDREA CANNING ( 09:36:11 ) : You might have a smoking gun here . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:36:13 ) : Yes . ( Letter ; photo of Jeep ) LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 09:36:13 ) : -- like a bolt from the blue , an anonymous letter lands in their laps . And it would lead to a poison piece of evidence . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:36:21 ) : That 's your big moment in this case ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:36:24 ) : The big moment . LESTER HOLT ( 09:36:25 ) : When DATELINE continues . ( ANNOUNCEMENTS ) ( Robert Nelson ; letter ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:40:08 ) : Detective Robert Nelson was making little headway in solving Mary Yoder 's homicide when a bombshell clue @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ NELSON ( 09:40:19 ) : I received the letter stating that Adam did this , he was responsible . He told this person that he did it . ( Photo of Adam Yoder and Katie Conley ; letter ; photo of Bill and Adam Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:40:25 ) : Adam was Adam Yoder , Mary and Bill 's twenty-five-year-old son . The letter said he was the killer . The person who penned the letter claimed to be close to Adam , writing : " He got a bottle of colchicine off online and put the toxin in one of her vitamins when he was over at his parents sic house . " With a jolt , the letter dramatically shifted the focus of the investigation from father to son . ( 09:40:51 ) : You might have a smoking gun here ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:40:52 ) : Yes . There 's a lot of detail in that letter . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:40:55 ) : Did Adam have any criminal history ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:40:56 ) : No , we did @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Yoder and Katie Conley ; Vin and Kathy Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:40:59 ) : Remember , Adam dated Katie ; and her parents , Vin ( ph ) and Kathy , knew him well . KATHY CONLEY ( 09:41:04 ) : When he was dating our daughter , he would come to the house every day . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:41:09 ) : And how did you feel about the relationship ? KATHY CONLEY ( 09:41:11 ) : There was always something off , something we -- we did n't care for with Adam . He was kind of off , detached . VIN CONLEY ( 09:41:21 ) : We 'd eat dinner as a family and Adam would sit across from me . And -- KATHY CONLEY ( 09:41:27 ) : He would n't make eye contact with you . VIN CONLEY ( 09:41:28 ) : -- talked -- KATHY CONLEY ( 09:41:28 ) : And he would n't really talk to anyone in the family . VIN CONLEY ( 09:41:31 ) : The communication stopped a little bit between myself and him . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ point feel like maybe I should say something ? Or did you totally stay out of it ? KATHY CONLEY ( 09:41:40 ) : No , we did mention to Katie that we did n't think there was something different with Adam , and we really did n't feel comfortable about it . Her sisters also recognized that fact , too . ( Shannon , Sara and Katie Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:41:53 ) : Shannon and Sara Conley are Katie 's twin sisters . They were n't sad when Katie and Adam split up . ( 09:41:59 ) : Why did they finally break up ? SARAH CONLEY ( 09:42:00 ) : Katie just had enough of him being up , being down , being up , being down , and just some of the things he would say just were n't right . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:42:10 ) : Did Adam have any issues with his mom that you know of ? SHANNON CONLEY ( 09:42:14 ) : I know they definitely were not as close as our family was . He would just @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ like , I -- I do n't get it . Like , I 've met your mother . She 's great . ( Letter ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:42:24 ) : So why ? If there was any truth to the letter , what motive would Adam have ? The letter seemed to have an answer . ( 09:42:32 ) : Why did it say he did it ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:42:33 ) : He thought he 'd gain financially if his mother passed away . He thought he 'd have a financial gain . Also , that there was arguments between him and his parents that he was upset with the -- with his mother . So it listed that as two of the reasonings . ( Letter ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:42:45 ) : And the letter told authorities something else . The colchicine container is under the front seat passenger side of his jeep until he figures out where to dispose of it next . ( 09:42:56 ) : What 's your strategy going in with Adam ? ROBERT NELSON @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as to how we want to go about with Adam ? We said , let 's -- let 's bring him up here . Let 's -- if he comes up in his vehicle , the letter says the colchicine is in the vehicle . We 'll talk to Adam . See if he comes up here with the colchicine . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:43:10 ) : Was this a bit of a test to see if Adam would show up in the Jeep ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:43:13 ) : Yes . ( Photo of Jeep ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:43:14 ) : And when Adam arrived to talk to the detectives , he was driving the jeep in question . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:43:20 ) : We were trying to get a feel for Adam at that point to see , you know , is he responsible for his mother 's death ? So we spoke to him . We then showed him parts of the letter that said where this colchicine would be , and which he was taken aback . ANDREA CANNING ( @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:43:38 ) : Shocked . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:43:38 ) : Did you feel his reaction was genuine ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:43:41 ) : Yes . But we still had some concerns also about his reactions . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:43:44 ) : In what way ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:43:45 ) : He was just hesitant to let us go look in his vehicle . ( Interior of police station ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:43:49 ) : While one detective talked to Adam , another called his sister Liana . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:43:54 ) : They 're , like , we actually have a letter . What do you mean you have a letter ? Well , the letter 's actually pointing the finger at your brother and it says that he 's got this in his car . And -- ANDREA CANNING ( 09:44:05 ) : The poison in his car . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:44:05 ) : The poison in his car . And I said what do you mean you have a letter that says my brother @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it 's important . We got to look in your brother 's car . You got to convince him to let us -- you know , if you can talk to him , let him know because if he leaves the station , this is n't going to be good . ( Police station parking lot ; photo of Jeep ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:44:23 ) : Adam eventually gave investigators permission and they went outside to the parking lot . ( 09:44:28 ) : Moment of truth . You open the vehicle door . And what do you find inside ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:44:32 ) : They go out there and -- and they search the vehicle right where it says it 's going to be in the letter . And we pull out a cardboard sleeve with the colchicine inside the sleeve . ( Photos of interior of Jeep and bottle ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:44:43 ) : And just like that the investigator seemed to have the weapon right in his hand . ( 09:44:48 ) : That 's your @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ) : The big moment . ( Photo of Adam Yoder and Katie Conley ) LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 09:44:52 ) : Coming up , Adam Yoder , secret killer ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:44:56 ) : It was frustrating . It just was n't fitting . ( Photo of Jeep ) LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 09:44:58 ) : This deadly puzzle was n't solved yet . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:45:02 ) : You feel like , all of a sudden , somebody dropped you in the middle of hell and every time you get an answer , it 's worse . ( ANNOUNCEMENTS ) ( Letter ; photos of medicine bottle in Jeep ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:48:37 ) : The anonymous letter writer had been right . The colchicine used to kill Mary Yoder was under the front passenger seat of her son Adam 's jeep . It was a pure form of the drug , far more potent than what doctors prescribe . And Adam ? ( 09:48:52 ) : What 's his reaction ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:48:53 ) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ us pull that out . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:48:56 ) : The poison is in his Jeep . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:48:58 ) : Yes . ( Photo of Jeep ; photo of receipt ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:48:59 ) : What 's more , in the Jeep , along with the colchicine , there was a receipt for the drug . And on the receipt -- ROBERT NELSON ( 09:49:06 ) : It had an e-mail address . It also had Adam 's name on there . And from there , the mradamyoder1990 Gmail account , which was very important to us , was listed on there . ( Photo of Colchicine bottle ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:49:16 ) : Adam said he 'd never seen the colchicine before in his life . Someone must have planted it . ( 09:49:22 ) : In that moment , what are you thinking ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:49:24 ) : At that moment , we 're thinking would he bring the poison up here with him ? I mean it does n't make sense . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and you got the colchicine , you would n't drive up to the sheriff 's office with the colchicine in -- knowingly in your car . You would get rid of it . But again , you have anonymous letter saying he admitted to doing it , and that the colchicine would be in his car . So you kind of have a split reaction as to which way we are looking at it . ( Photo of Mary Yoder ; exterior of hospital ; photo of Adam Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:49:46 ) : Could Adam really have poisoned his mother ? When they looked into his whereabouts on the day Mary got sick , they discovered Adam was more than three hundred miles away visiting his sister . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:49:57 ) : I knew at the time my mom got sick , he was with me and I could n't understand wait how would he have been involved . TAMARYN YODER ( 09:50:06 ) : My mother was my brother 's biggest supporter . He turned to her first for everything . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ he did this did n't make sense . ( Photo of Jeep ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:50:17 ) : It did n't entirely make sense to detectives either . ( 09:50:20 ) : You let Adam go . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:50:22 ) : Yes . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:50:22 ) : But I would imagine you 're not crossing Adam off your list yet . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:50:28 ) : No . We are comfortable enough to let him go , but we did n't say he absolutely had nothing to do with it . ( Detectives ; David King ; photo of Adam Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:50:33 ) : The investigation led them to talk to Adam 's cousin and roommate David King . He 's the son of Mary 's sister , Janine . David told them that after Mary died , Adam was enrolled in college , but his life seemed to be falling apart . DAVID KING ( 09:50:48 ) : He slowly started dropping all of his classes . And he was pretty much staying @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ CANNING ( 09:50:56 ) : Were you really concerned about him ? DAVID KING ( 09:50:58 ) : I was . He had expressed to me that he was suicidal a couple of times , which was very concerning . ( Exterior of residence ; photo of Mary Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:51:06 ) : It was only when detectives were interviewing David that he realized Adam was a person of interest in Mary 's death . ( 09:51:13 ) : Did that just floor you ? DAVID KING ( 09:51:14 ) : I was absolutely floored . And at that time they had asked me flat-out , do you think Adam could 've killed his mother ? ANDREA CANNING ( 09:51:19 ) : What did you tell them ? DAVID KING ( 09:51:20 ) : At the time I said , no , I do n't think he would . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:51:22 ) : At the time . DAVID KING ( 09:51:23 ) : At the time . ( David King ; Liana Hedge and Tamaryn Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ cousin 's behavior was the result of grief -- or guilt . Adam 's sisters on the other hand had no doubt Adam was innocent . They were convinced he was being framed . ( 09:51:37 ) : Who did you think could have framed him ? LIANA HEDGE ( 09:51:39 ) : At that point , a possibility was my father . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:51:44 ) : So you actually believed your father might 've framed your brother . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:51:46 ) : We believed it could 've been possible . The investigators were leaning very heavy onto it . And pretty much telling us without coming out -- right out and saying it , that they were sure my father had done this . ( Photo of Mary and Bill Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:52:01 ) : It was impossible to wrap their heads around . TAMARYN YODER ( 09:52:04 ) : This ca n't be real , this ca n't really be happening . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:52:06 ) : We had to reality check with each other -- TAMARYN @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 09:52:08 ) : -- because you 're , like , did it happen or did it not ? TAMARYN YODER ( 09:52:10 ) : Yeah , is this a dream ? What 's going on ? LIANA HEDGE ( 09:52:14 ) : You feel like , all of a sudden , somebody dropped you in the middle of hell and you ca n't find your way out . And every time you get an answer , it 's worse . ( Detectives ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:52:24 ) : But detectives did n't have enough evidence to prove any of their theories . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:52:28 ) : It was frustrating . I mean there was a lot of nights we were frustrated by this case . We looked at Adam , but yet , nothing else was pointing the finger at Adam . It just was n't fitting . And the same with Bill , we 'd want to say , okay , we -- Bill did this . But why did Bill do it ? And so there was times we were kind of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:52:45 ) : Looking for new insight , detectives turned to someone outside the Yoder clan -- Katie , who dated Adam and worked for Bill and Mary . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:52:54 ) : We just wanted to speak to her to see -- if she knew anything about Bill , about Mary , other than , you know , outside of the office . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:53:00 ) : Often employees are the ones who hear and see a lot . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:53:04 ) : Yes . ( Katie Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:53:04 ) : Katie was in the middle of final exams at college , but made time to come in for an interview . ( 09:53:10 ) : Did you wonder why ? KATIE CONLEY ( 09:53:11 ) : I wondered what had started an investigation and I -- I wanted to help in whatever way I could . I just did n't know what they were getting at . ( Photo of Mary and Bill Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ them a lot about Mary and Bill . KATIE CONLEY ( 09:53:27 ) : They were like night and day . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:53:28 ) : In what way ? KATIE CONLEY ( 09:53:28 ) : Mary was very outgoing and very vibrant , and Bill was more reserved . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:53:35 ) : And -- KATIE CONLEY ( 09:53:35 ) : He was more about the business and less about being friendly with patients . ( Photo of Adam Yoder and Katie Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:53:41 ) : She , of course , knew a lot about Adam , too . ( 09:53:44 ) : Things were n't perfect between Adam and Katie . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:53:46 ) : No . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:53:47 ) : But they clearly had something , because they kept going back to each other . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:53:49 ) : Yes . They would on an -- on and off . They would text each other . They would get back together , and then they would break up again . ANDREA @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of questions ? KATIE CONLEY ( 09:53:57 ) : They did . ( Katie Conley ; photo of Adam Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:53:58 ) : Investigators talked to Katie three times over the next few days . By the third interview , she started telling them the same thing Adam 's cousin had said , Adam had n't been himself lately . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:54:10 ) : She makes some comments about , Adam 's acting strangely , and is n't acting right . ANDREA CANNING ( 09:54:15 ) : Is she worried about Adam ? That maybe Adam had something to do with this ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:54:18 ) : Yes . She 's kind of hinting that , you know , the way Adam is acting , that he may be responsible for his mother 's death . ( Police interview room ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:54:24 ) : As detectives listened to Katie talk about Adam , her ex , they wondered where this was going . A light bulb went off for the investigator . ROBERT @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ said , did you write the letter ? ANDREA CANNING ( 09:54:34 ) : And what does she say ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:54:36 ) : She said , yes . ( Katie Conley ; town ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:54:37 ) : Detectives had found the person who wrote that letter pointing the finger at Adam . But the discovery was about to point them in a new direction . ( 09:54:46 ) : That 's a twist ? ROBERT NELSON ( 09:54:48 ) : Yes . LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 09:54:50 ) : Coming up -- UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( interrogation video ) ( 09:54:51 ) : Are you okay ? KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 09:54:52 ) : Yeah , I 'm -- I 'm sorry . I 'm scared . ( Police interview video of Katie Conley ) LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 09:54:55 ) : -- a frightened Katie Conley shares her story with detectives . KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 09:54:59 ) : You ca n't protect me . ROBERT NELSON ( interrogation video ) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 09:55:02 ) : Yeah . ( Katie Conley ) LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 09:55:03 ) : What was she afraid of ? When DATELINE continues . ( ANNOUNCEMENTS ) ( Photo of Mary Yoder ) LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 09:58:29 ) : Continuing with our story , chiropractor Mary Yoder 's sudden death was a puzzle . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:58:35 ) : Nobody could do anything . KATIE CONLEY ( 09:58:36 ) : People were shocked . She was so healthy . SHARON MILLS ( 09:58:39 ) : Healthy people do n't just drop dead . ( Photo of Mary Yoder ) LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 09:58:41 ) : Then doctors discovered she 'd been poisoned with a rare drug . ROBERT NELSON ( 09:58:45 ) : We were looking at it as a homicide . ( Photo of Mary and Bill Yoder ) LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 09:58:46 ) : Police looked at her husband , Bill . JANINE KING ( 09:58:49 ) : She says , he 's got a girlfriend @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ voiceover ) ( 09:58:51 ) : And , her son Adam . DAVID KING ( 09:58:53 ) : I 've always had my concerns about Adam . LESTER HOLT ( 09:58:55 ) : Now , investigators are about to focus on a surprising new suspect . LIANA HEDGE ( 09:58:59 ) : It was the hardest person to even wrap your head around . ( Police interview room ) LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 09:59:05 ) : Who would it be ? SHARON MILLS ( 09:59:07 ) : No way . JANINE KING ( 09:59:08 ) : It just does n't make sense . SALLIE BAKERT ( 09:59:09 ) : No . KATHY CONLEY ( 09:59:09 ) : Never , ever in your wildest dreams would you think that this would happen . LESTER HOLT ( 09:59:16 ) : Here again , Andrea Canning . ( Photo of Mary Yoder ; detectives ; letter and photo of Adam Yoder ; police interview video of Katie Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:59:20 ) : December 2015 , five months after Mary Yoder 's fatal poisoning , detectives @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ who had written that letter pointing the finger at Adam as the killer . Now Katie , Adam 's ex-girlfriend , admitted it was her . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( interrogation video ) ( 09:59:39 ) : Are you okay ? KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 09:59:39 ) : Yeah , I 'm -- I 'm sorry . I 'm scared . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( interrogation video ) ( 09:59:42 ) : What ? KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 09:59:43 ) : I 'm scared . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( interrogation video ) ( 09:59:43 ) : I understand that . Look , I 'm going to be in here with you , okay ? And together we 're going to get through talking about this . ( Letter ; photo of Colchicine bottle ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 09:59:51 ) : Through tears , Katie went over the details in the letter . She said Adam confessed to her , he poisoned his mother with colchicine . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( interrogation video ) ( 09:59:59 ) : He had it shipped to the office ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that 's what was in the package that I signed for . ( Photo of Mary Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:00:09 ) : In the letter she said Adam hid the poison in one of Mary 's vitamin pills . But Katie was n't sure if he really meant to kill his mother . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( interrogation video ) ( 10:00:18 ) : You said it may have been an accident . Did he express that he did n't mean to do this to you ? KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:00:23 ) : Well , he said he regretted it . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( interrogation video ) ( 10:00:25 ) : He regretted it ? ( Photo of medicine bottle from Jeep ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:00:26 ) : As for how she knew where Adam had stashed the poison , Katie said he told her when she was literally sitting on top of it . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( interrogation video ) ( 10:00:34 ) : You were in Adam 's jeep ? KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ video ) ( 10:00:36 ) : Right ? He told you that you he 'd put colchicine under your seat -- under his seat ? KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:00:41 ) : Under my seat . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( interrogation video ) ( 10:00:43 ) : Under your seat ? He told you that ? KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:00:48 ) : But I did n't want to look . ( Photo of Adam Yoder and Katie Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:00:51 ) : Katie had known Adam for years . But now , she told the detectives she did n't know what he was capable of . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( interrogation video ) ( 10:00:57 ) : You think Adam 's going to do this again ? KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:01:01 ) : Do he could do it again ? Like , would it surprise me ? No . ( Police car ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:01:09 ) : She said she did n't report Adam sooner for one simple reason -- @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ video ) ( 10:01:14 ) : I know you ca n't protect me . ROBERT NELSON ( interrogation video ) ( 10:01:16 ) : We can protect you . KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:01:17 ) : You ca n't protect me . ROBERT NELSON ( interrogation video ) ( 10:01:19 ) : Protect you from what , Adam ? KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:01:20 ) : Yeah . ROBERT NELSON ( interrogation video ) ( 10:01:21 ) : If you 're saying Adam 's responsible , why would Adam come after you ? KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:01:23 ) : Why ? ROBERT NELSON ( interrogation video ) ( 10:01:23 ) : Yes . KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:01:25 ) : Because if he knows that I -- like , if he knows that I came to you . ( Robert Nelson ; letter ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:01:31 ) : Katie 's admission that she was the letter writer seemed like the big break detectives needed . And it was -- but not in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And you thought that possibly the killer wrote the letter . ROBERT NELSON ( 10:01:43 ) : Yes . ANDREA CANNING ( 10:01:43 ) : Are you thinking Katie could be the killer ? ROBERT NELSON ( 10:01:47 ) : Absolutely . ANDREA CANNING ( 10:01:47 ) : Really ? ROBERT NELSON ( 10:01:48 ) : Yes . ( Photo of Katie Conley ; police interview room ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:01:49 ) : Key witness or prime suspect ? Which was she ? As the interview went on , the detectives pushed her harder . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( interrogation video ) ( 10:01:59 ) : What made you write the letter ? You wanted us to know ? KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:02:06 ) : Yeah . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( interrogation video ) ( 10:02:06 ) : Or did you want to see Adam get in trouble ? KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:02:09 ) : No . Like , it 's not to see Adam get in trouble . ANDREA CANNING ( 10:02:11 ) : Is Katie starting to panic @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ) : Yes . at this point , she 's becoming worried about where things are -- were turning and then what it 's -- how it 's looking for her . Because if we did n't arrest Adam when we found the colchicine , now she knows we do n't necessarily believe what 's in that letter . ( Police interview room ) KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:02:26 ) : I 'm just afraid , because Adam 's really smart . ( Police interview room ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:02:33 ) : At one point , Katie told the detectives Adam had threatened to frame her . KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:02:38 ) : At the office , he said that if anyone was going to get in trouble , it 's going to be me . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( interrogation video ) ( 10:02:43 ) : Okay . For what ? For being at the office ? KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) Yeah . Like , I 'm connected to everything , he said . ROBERT NELSON ( @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ says I know things are pointing at me but it 's Adam . She always tried to point the finger back at Adam . ( Photo of bottle ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:02:58 ) : She also said something they thought was just plain weird . She made an observation about who uses poison . KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:03:06 ) : Guys also do n't use poison . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( interrogation video ) ( 10:03:10 ) : A lot of people do . KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:03:13 ) : They say it 's a lady 's weapon . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( interrogation video ) ( 10:03:16 ) : They say it 's a lady 's weapon ? KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:03:18 ) : Yeah . ( Police interview room ; exterior of police station ; Katie Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:03:19 ) : Of course , that did n't prove Katie was Mary 's killer . She was free to go . But she had not done much during that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ from it . ROBERT NELSON ( 10:03:30 ) : We wanted to speak to her again . But at this point now , we also had a lot more police work to do . ( Exterior of chiropractic office ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:03:35 ) : They started to dig , and quickly thought they were on the right track . For one thing , Katie had opportunity- -she was with Mary at the office that day . Poison experts thought Mary had ingested the colchicine around lunchtime . ROBERT NELSON ( 10:03:49 ) : There was a kitchen area in the back where they would sit and have lunch and make their drinks . If Mary was out in this other room a couple offices away working on patients , Katie would have the time to go back there and do something . ( Receipt ; email log-in screen ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:03:58 ) : And that Gmail account that had been used to buy the poison , digital records showed Adam 's computer had never been used to log into the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ( 10:04:10 ) : Katie had accessed the mradamyoder account from not only home , but from the office . ( Robert Nelson ; search results from phone ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:04:16 ) : In fact , the entire digital trail seemed to lead detectives right to Katie 's doorstep . On her phone they found several searches for the word colchicine . ROBERT NELSON ( 10:04:25 ) : All this evidence comes in against her . No -- nothing 's coming back on Bill and nothing came back on Adam . ( Photo of Katie Conley ; exterior of chiropractic office ; photo of Mary Yoder ; Mary Yoder ; exterior of police station ; police interview video of Katie Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:04:32 ) : But there was a gaping hole in their theory . If Katie really was Mary 's killer , why had she done it ? The only person who could answer that was Katie herself . It was time for another conversation . And this one was going to get intense . ROBERT NELSON ( @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do it , Katie ? Help me understand . KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:04:53 ) : Oh , my God . LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 10:04:55 ) : Coming up -- SHARON MILLS ( 10:04:56 ) : No way . Katie ? JANINE KING ( 10:04:58 ) : There -- SHARON MILLS ( 10:04:58 ) : They ca n't be looking at Katie . ( Police interview room ) LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 10:05:00 ) : -- an interrogation , turned marathon . VIN CONLEY ( 10:05:03 ) : He said , Katie will not be going home . KATHY CONLEY ( 10:05:06 ) : Never , ever in your wildest dreams would you think that this would happen . ( ANNOUNCEMENTS ) ( Katie Conley ; photo of Mary Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:06:56 ) : Katie Conley , just twenty-two years old , was now a prime suspect in the poisoning death of her boss , Mary Yoder. ( 10:07:03 ) : By all accounts , this seemed like a very nice relationship between a younger woman @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : Yes . ANDREA CANNING ( 10:07:11 ) : A mentor relationship ? ROBERT NELSON ( 10:07:12 ) : Yes . ANDREA CANNING ( 10:07:13 ) : So , was this very surprising to you then ? ROBERT NELSON ( 10:07:15 ) : Absolutely . Once she admitted to writing that letter , it was a -- definitely a turn of events for us . ( Robert Nelson ; photo of Katie Conley and photo of Mary Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:07:22 ) : For two months , detectives followed the digital trail , and it led them to only one conclusion . Surprising as it may have been , it was looking like Katie was Mary 's killer . The only thing detectives say they did n't have was her motive . ( 10:07:37 ) : You bring Katie in . Is this go time ? ROBERT NELSON ( 10:07:39 ) : At that point , we wanted to find out why . We had all the other evidence leading to that point that she purchased it . She 's the one that poisoned Mary @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ video of Katie Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:07:49 ) : The conversation started with pleasantries about Katie 's family farm . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( interrogation video ) ( 10:07:53 ) : How 's the chickens ? KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:07:55 ) : Good . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( interrogation video ) ( 10:07:55 ) : Yeah ? ( Police interview video of Katie Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:07:56 ) : But the detective quickly got down to business . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( interrogation video ) ( 10:07:59 ) : Here 's where we 're at a crossroad in this case , okay ? We 've -- we 've kind of done a lot of work , okay ? And we know that your -- your phone is used quite a lot for items in this case , okay ? KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:08:10 ) : Mm-Hm . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( interrogation video ) ( 10:08:11 ) : You 're the one that purchased the colchicine . KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:08:13 ) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 10:08:14 ) : Help me . KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:08:16 ) : I did n't , though . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( interrogation video ) ( 10:08:18 ) : I can -- KATHY CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:08:18 ) : But you 're never going to believe me . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( interrogation video ) ( 10:08:21 ) : Nobody else will believe you . ROBERT NELSON ( 10:08:23 ) : Her story changed so many times . We -- we caught her in a lot of lies now . ( Interrogation video ) ( 10:08:26 ) : You lied to me . KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:08:27 ) : I did n't mean to lie to you . ROBERT NELSON ( interrogation video ) ( 10:08:29 ) : But you did . ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:08:29 ) : After a while , they got to the point . ROBERT NELSON ( interrogation video ) ( 10:08:32 ) : That 's the only thing we need at this point is why . You need to tell me whether you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ get sick or -- or what ? We need to know . KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:08:42 ) : I would n't try to hurt her . ROBERT NELSON ( interrogation video ) ( 10:08:44 ) : Okay . KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:08:44 ) : I would n't hurt her . ROBERT NELSON ( interrogation video ) ( 10:08:45 ) : You would n't hurt Mary ? KATHY CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:08:46 ) : No . ANDREA CANNING ( 10:08:47 ) : I know killers come in all shapes and sizes . But Katie does not look like a killer . ROBERT NELSON ( 10:08:52 ) : No . But again , it -- it 's poison . And she had made a comment earlier that it 's a lady 's weapon . ( Police interview video of Katie Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:08:58 ) : The detectives kept at it . They questioned her for more than six hours . She never asked for an attorney . ROBERT NELSON ( interrogation video ) ( 10:09:05 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , Katie . It 's why . Now , please , just tell me why , Katie . Then we can help you . It 's the only thing left . KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:09:17 ) : My life is over . ROBERT NELSON ( interrogation video ) ( 10:09:19 ) : What drove you to do this , Katie ? Was it Adam ? KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:09:25 ) : If I go to jail , I 'll go to jail forever . ( Police interview video of Katie Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:09:27 ) : At one point , she appeared to get sick . ROBERT NELSON ( interrogation video ) ( 10:09:32 ) : Take some deep breaths , Katie . Take some deep breaths . Help me understand . KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:09:36 ) : I would n't risk my life for this . ROBERT NELSON ( 10:09:39 ) : At the end I had her saying a lot of things , but she would n't admit to actually why @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ over . But again , she would try to throw it back on Adam . But at this point everything was pointing to her . KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:09:51 ) : I have people who love me . I have a family . ( Police interview video of Katie Conley ; Vin and Kathy Conley ; exterior of police station ; police interview room ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:09:56 ) : Katie 's family was right there at the sheriff 's office with her . Her parents had driven her there thinking investigators needed her to sign a quick deposition -- an hour at most . VIN CONLEY ( 10:10:06 ) : And I went to the window and I said , my daughter is with -- signing papers , she 's supposed to be out half an hour ago . I want to talk to her . And I want -- I want to know , I mean , what 's going on ? ( Vin , Kathy and Katie Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:10:18 ) : Her @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ suspect . But as the afternoon wore on -- VIN CONLEY ( 10:10:25 ) : They 're not signing a deposition . KATHY CONLEY ( 10:10:26 ) : Sign a deposition -- VIN CONLEY ( 10:10:27 ) : They 're interrogating her for murder . They 're interrogating her . So then the door is locked to get to my daughter . I beat on the door . ANDREA CANNING ( 10:10:39 ) : Wow . VIN CONLEY ( 10:10:39 ) : And finally a sheriff came in . And I says , my daughter 's in there . I says , I want her out now or I want to go in there . Something 's wrong here . ( Exterior of police station ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:10:50 ) : It was evening when a detective appeared . VIN CONLEY ( 10:10:53 ) : He comes back out , Kathy and I are at the door , Katie 's not with him . And he said , Katie will not be going home . KATHY CONLEY ( 10:11:05 ) : With you tonight . VIN @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Yoder 's death . KATHY CONLEY ( 10:11:11 ) : We know she did it . VIN CONLEY ( 10:11:11 ) : She killed -- we know she did it . She 'll be spending the night in jail . My wife passed out . She did everything , but passed out , I caught her . And then he closes the door . ANDREA CANNING ( 10:11:23 ) : Was this the most helpless you 'd ever felt in your lives as parents ? KATHY CONLEY ( 10:11:26 ) : That you ca n't help your child , that you are not in control , that you have absolutely no way to put your arms around her and tell her everything 's going to be okay . ( Exterior of police station ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:11:39 ) : Despite what the detective said , they did n't charge Katie that night . She came out , badly shaken , the Conleys helped each other to the car and headed home . VIN CONLEY ( 10:11:49 ) : Katie was sitting in the back seat . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ question I 've ever asked anybody in my life , okay ? I says , Katie , did you kill Mary ? Did you kill Mary , Katie ? KATHY CONLEY ( 10:12:07 ) : And without hesitation -- VIN CONLEY ( 10:12:09 ) : She says , dad , I -- I -- KATHY CONLEY ( 10:12:12 ) : I loved her . VIN CONLEY ( 10:12:12 ) : -- I loved her . I -- I would n't kill anybody . ( Conley family ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:12:17 ) : It was the answer they expected of course . They say the daughter they raised was no killer . KATHY CONLEY ( 10:12:24 ) : As a mother , you always think that you 're going to get a phone call that your child has been in a car accident or that there 's an illness . But never , ever in your wildest dreams would you think that this would happen , at all . It 's not -- it 's not our daughter . ( Conley family ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ same way . The big sister they 'd looked up to loved animals , would never hurt anyone -- least of all Mary . SHANNON CONLEY ( 10:12:55 ) : Katie had nothing to gain from her death and everything to lose . She lost a mentor , a best friend . No motive . No gain . Nothing . SARAH CONLEY ( 10:13:03 ) : I know her . I know my sister . Katie did not do this . ( Katie Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:13:09 ) : In fact , as word travelled that Katie was the new target of the investigation , no one could make sense of it . Not Mary 's patient , Holly Hilts . ( 10:13:19 ) : Did you believe it ? HOLLY HILTS ( 10:13:20 ) : No . Not at all . From what I know of Katie , there 's no reason that she would have done something like that . ( Sharon Mills , Sallie Bakert and Janine King ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:13:26 ) : Mary 's own sisters @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ did n't believe it either . SHARON MILLS ( 10:13:33 ) : No way . Katie ? JANINE KING ( 10:13:34 ) : They 're -- SHARON MILLS ( 10:13:35 ) : They ca n't be looking at Katie . JANINE KING ( 10:13:36 ) : So we -- SHARON MILLS ( 10:13:36 ) : That 's what we 're thinking . JANINE KING ( 10:13:37 ) : Right . ( Exterior of police station ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:13:38 ) : They phoned the sheriff 's office to say there must be some mistake . JANINE KING ( 10:13:42 ) : We all called them and said , you know , look , we hear there 's another suspect . If by chance , that other suspect is Katie , please , consider the possibility that she may be being framed . ( Tamaryn Yoder and Liana Hedge ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:13:56 ) : Even Mary 's daughters were at a loss . TAMARYN YODER ( 10:13:57 ) : How could this be ? How could she -- what do you mean @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ) : It was the hardest person to even wrap your head around that could be involved . ANDREA CANNING ( 10:14:09 ) : What did your dad say when he heard Katie was being looked at as a suspect ? LIANA HEDGE ( 10:14:13 ) : He did n't believe it . TAMARYN YODER ( 10:14:14 ) : No . ( Robert Nelson ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:14:16 ) : But investigators were convinced . ( 10:14:18 ) : Were you confident you had the killer ? ROBERT NELSON ( 10:14:21 ) : Oh , absolutely . We had the right person . And everything we had , we had the right person now . ( Exterior of courthouse ; Katie Conley in court ; town ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:14:25 ) : And a grand jury agreed . Four months later , Katie Conley was charged with second degree murder . The investigation had its surprises , but it would be nothing compared to the drama of the trial . LAURIE LISI ( in court ) ( 10:14:39 ) : Ladies and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Vengeance thy name is Kaitlyn Conley . LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 10:14:52 ) : Coming up -- KATIE CONLEY ( 10:14:53 ) : It 's hard to know that I 'm innocent and still feel like people want me to be guilty . ( Katie Conley in court ; photo of Katie Conley and Adam Yoder ) LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 10:15:01 ) : -- what could be Katie 's motive for murder ? Prosecutors come up with a doozy . UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN ( in court ) ( 10:15:08 ) : Was she helping you through your grief ? ADAM YODER ( in court ) ( 10:15:08 ) : Yes . LAURIE LISI ( in court ) ( 10:15:09 ) : Kaitlyn Conley wanted Adam Yoder back . LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 10:15:12 ) : When DATELINE continues . ( ANNOUNCEMENTS ) ANDREA CANNING ( 10:19:20 ) : So you can obviously come to the fence ? KATIE CONLEY ( 10:19:22 ) : I can come to the fence . ( Katie Conley ; ankle monitor ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ had been living under house arrest for several months , confined to her parents ' farm , tethered to an ankle monitor . ( 10:19:31 ) : So your home has kind of become your own prison in a way ? KATIE CONLEY ( 10:19:35 ) : Yes . ( Andrea Canning speaking with Katie Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:19:35 ) : Katie 's lawyer would n't let her answer our questions about the evidence in the case . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( 10:19:40 ) : No . ANDREA CANNING ( 10:19:40 ) : No , okay . ( Photo of Mary Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:19:41 ) : But she did tell us how much she missed Mary Yoder , her boss and friend . ( 10:19:47 ) : Would you ever have any reason to do anything to Mary ? KATIE CONLEY ( 10:19:50 ) : No . No reason ever . We never had so much as a cross word with each other . ANDREA CANNING ( 10:19:57 ) : Did you poison Mary Yoder ? KATIE CONLEY ( 10:20:00 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:20:01 ) : At times Katie seemed overwhelmed by the upcoming trial . KATHY CONLEY ( 10:20:05 ) : Sorry . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( 10:20:09 ) : Do you want -- UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN ( 10:20:10 ) : You want to grab for a minute ? ANDREA CANNING ( 10:20:10 ) : Yeah , you 're -- you 're okay , is it -- is it -- KATIE CONLEY ( 10:20:13 ) : Sorry . ANDREA CANNING ( 10:20:13 ) : -- is your anxiety about just what 's coming ? KATIE CONLEY ( 10:20:17 ) : It 's hard to know that I 'm innocent and still feel like people want me to be guilty . ANDREA CANNING ( 10:20:25 ) : You do feel that way ? KATIE CONLEY ( 10:20:33 ) : I feel like people are n't waiting for facts to come out , and they 're ready to believe whatever they 're told . ( Laurie Lisi at courthouse ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:20:41 ) : Oneida County Assistant DA Laurie Lisi was confident that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 10:20:47 ) : We knew it was a circumstantial case , which means it 's always an uphill battle . But we felt like we could connect all the dots . ( Courthouse ; courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:20:56 ) : The courtroom was packed on the first day of Katie 's trial . She sat quietly at the defense table as the prosecution began . LAURIE LISI ( in court ) ( 10:21:04 ) : The evidence will show that Kaitlyn Conley -- ( Courtroom proceedings ; photo of Mary Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:21:06 ) : Lisi told the jury she had overwhelming evidence that would prove Katie poisoned Mary , starting with the timeline . One by one , Mary 's patients from her last day in the office took the stand . UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN ( in court ) ( 10:21:20 ) : Was Dr. Mary appearing to be ill at all in the morning ? UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN ( in court ) ( 10:21:23 ) : No , she was n't . ( Courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ appointments with Mary before lunch said she was her usual vibrant self . But her patients in the afternoon -- UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN ( in court ) ( 10:21:34 ) : Did n't have the big smile on her face . It was very apparent that she -- she was not well and something was wrong . ( Courtroom proceedings ; photo of Mary Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:21:41 ) : But all the patients agreed that Katie was the only other person at work that day . So the prosecutor suggested she was the only one with the opportunity to poison Mary . LAURIE LISI ( 10:21:53 ) : She could 've done whatever she needed to do to put that poison wherever she ultimately put it . BILL YODER ( in court ) ( 10:21:58 ) : she coded , like , six or seven times . ( Courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:22:01 ) : Bill Yoder , Mary 's husband of thirty-eight years , told the jury about Mary 's agonizing last hours in the hospital . BILL YODER @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a huge tube down her throat and tubes everywhere . And she just looked absolutely terrified . ( Courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:22:17 ) : The prosecutor wanted to quash any lingering rumors that it was Bill who killed Mary . She said Bill was the grieving husband . LAURIE LISI ( in court ) ( 10:22:25 ) : So , immediately after your wife passed away , what did you do ? BILL YODER ( in court ) ( 10:22:30 ) : I remember walking out of the -- the hospital door into the sunlight . And the next memory I have af -- after that was , I was sitting on my bed in the dark just crying and crying and it hurt so much . ( Liana Hedge and Tamaryn Yoder ; courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:22:49 ) : Bill 's daughters were relieved their dad had been cleared by investigators . Liana testified for the prosecution that he was a broken man after her mother 's death . LIANA HEDGE ( in court ) ( 10:22:59 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I ever saw my father cry . But since then , every day pretty much , I saw him cry . ( Photo of Mary and Bill Yoder ; Katie Conley ; interior of chiropractor 's office ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:23:14 ) : The prosecutor said it could n't have been Bill . There was so much evidence Katie bought the poison . She was the one who searched for colchicine on her phone . And both Katie 's work computer and work typewriter had been forensically linked to the order . LAURIE LISI ( in court ) ( 10:23:30 ) : Imagine that . You 're purchasing colchicine to kill your employer . And you 're doing it while you 're at work . That , ladies and gentlemen , is cold . ( 10:23:47 ) : It was for one gram of colchicine ; is that correct ? UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN ( in court ) ( 10:23:50 ) : Yes . ( Courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:23:51 ) : And this witness , a sales rep for the company that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with someone at the Yoder 's practice . LAURIE LISI ( in court ) ( 10:23:59 ) : Can you describe that individual 's voice ? UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN ( in court ) ( 10:24:02 ) : It was a female 's voice . It was a soft . It was soft , sweet voice . LAURIE LISI ( in court ) ( 10:24:11 ) : Did it sound old or young ? UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN ( in court ) ( 10:24:12 ) : Young . ( Photo of Katie Conley ; courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:24:13 ) : Soft , sweet , young . Who else could that be , asked the prosecutor . But perhaps the most damning evidence was something Katie told detectives . The colchicine was purchased with prepaid credit cards . And in Katie 's police interview , she admitted to buying those cards . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( interrogation video ) ( 10:24:32 ) : You purchased those credit cards , did n't you ? KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:24:33 ) : Yes . Yes . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ them , you 're involved in this . ( Courtroom proceedings ; photo of Katie Conley and Adam Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:24:38 ) : The prosecutor said it had all taken months of painstaking planning . But the question hanging over the courtroom was why ? Maybe the e-mail account used to order the poison offered a clue -- mradamyoder1990 @gmail.com The name of her ex-boyfriend . LAURIE LISI ( in court ) ( 10:24:58 ) : Kaitlyn Conley wanted Adam Yoder back . And I submit to you , she poisoned Adam Yoder 's mother , her boss , in hopes of bringing Adam Yoder back to her . UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN ( in court ) ( 10:25:12 ) : Your Honor , the people call Adam Yoder . ( Courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:25:15 ) : Adam told the jury that if Katie was trying to woo him back , her plan worked . He called Katie on the way to the hospital . UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN ( in court ) ( 10:25:22 ) : Why did you call Katie @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ) : Because I was panicking and Katie knew my mother . ( Photo of Adam Yoder and Katie Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:25:30 ) : Adam said after his mother passed away , he and Katie got back together . UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN ( in court ) ( 10:25:34 ) : Did you have sexual relations with Kaitlyn Conley on July 25 , 2015 ? ADAM YODER ( in court ) ( 10:25:40 ) : I did . UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN ( in court ) ( 10:25:40 ) : Was she helping you through your grief ? ADAM YODER ( in court ) ( 10:25:42 ) : Yes . ( Courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:25:43 ) : But the prosecutor said the relationship collapsed a couple of months later . And that 's when Katie came up with a new plan -- frame Adam for the killing . LAURIE LISI ( in court ) ( 10:25:53 ) : Because , ladies and gentlemen , hell hath no fury like a woman scorned . Vengeance , thy name is Kaitlyn Conley . ( @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:26:06 ) : The prosecutor said Katie planted the bottle of colchicine in Adam 's car then tipped off authorities . Something she denied in her interview . ROBERT NELSON ( interrogation video ) ( 10:26:15 ) : So if we say , did you place this under Adam 's seat ? Your answer to that is going to be what ? KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:26:19 ) : No . ( Courtroom proceedings ; photo of bottle ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:26:21 ) : But a forensic scientist testified Adam 's DNA was not on the bottle 's wrapper . Katie 's was . UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN ( in court ) ( 10:26:27 ) : The major contributor of that cardboard wrapper matched the DNA profile from Kaitlyn Conley . ( Courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:26:33 ) : It was an outlandish crime , the prosecutor said , so cruel , so cold . LAURIE LISI ( 10:26:39 ) : Her ultimate revenge was not only to take away his mother , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ responsible for it . ( Photo of Katie Conley and Adam Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( 10:26:47 ) : Do you believe Katie Conley killed your mother ? TAMARYN YODER ( 10:26:50 ) : Absolutely . LIANA HEDGE ( 10:26:50 ) : Yes . Yes . TAMARYN YODER ( 10:26:52 ) : There is no doubt . ( Courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:26:55 ) : But Katie 's defense said they were wrong . Far from being a criminal mastermind , it was Katie who had been framed -- and a surprising relationship was about to be exposed . ( 10:27:07 ) : What 's going through your mind when you learn of this relationship ? SHARON MILLS ( 10:27:11 ) : Unbelievable . ( Courtroom proceedings ) LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 10:27:13 ) : Coming up -- UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN ( in court ) ( 10:27:14 ) : He was kissing her and it was very intense . ( Photos of courtroom proceedings ) LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 10:27:19 ) : -- a bombshell explodes in court . Mary 's husband @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ) : That 's when we really started thinking seriously that Bill did it . ( ANNOUNCEMENTS ) ( Exterior of courthouse ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:30:46 ) : On day eleven of Katie Conley 's trial , the defense began its case . Rooting for her were some unlikely supporters . Three of Mary 's sisters . ( 10:30:56 ) : She 's on trial for murdering your sister , and you 're standing behind the defendant . JANINE KING ( 10:31:01 ) : The defense . I know , it is very -- ANDREA CANNING ( 10:31:02 ) : The alleged killer ? JANINE KING ( 10:31:02 ) : -- unusual situation . Right . But we just felt like this is the last thing our sister would 've wanted . SALLIE BAKERT ( 10:31:08 ) : That 's right . ( Photo of Kathy ; Sharon Mills ; photo of Bill Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:31:10 ) : But there was another sister who was n't sitting on the defense 's side , a sister they did n't talk to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ out she is the woman Bill started dating so quickly and , some said , so suspiciously after Mary 's death . Sharon was the first to figure it out . Kathy had been hard to get ahold of in the weeks after Mary died . And Bill had been going out of town . SHARON MILLS ( 10:31:36 ) : I said , oh , gee , maybe they 're off together , just kind of throwing it out there , flippantly . And Janine went , do you think ? ANDREA CANNING ( 10:31:44 ) : What 's going through your mind when you learn of this relationship ? SHARON MILLS ( 10:31:48 ) : Unbelievable . JANINE KING ( 10:31:50 ) : Yeah . I mean , that 's when we really started thinking seriously that Bill did it . ( Courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:31:57 ) : And that 's exactly what the defense wanted the jury to think . CHRISTOPHER PELLI ( in court ) ( 10:32:01 ) : You will find motive through the testimony on the part of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:32:07 ) : In court , Katie 's attorney Christopher Pelli told the jury that Mary 's killer was n't Katie . It was Bill . CHRISTOPHER PELLI ( 10:32:14 ) : He really is the only person that I can , in good heart and faith , say had motive to -- to actually kill his wife . ( Photo of Bill and Mary Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:32:26 ) : According to the defense , Bill was no grieving widower . CHRISTOPHER PELLI ( in court ) ( 10:32:30 ) : Do you remember the first time that you had sexual relations with Kathy Richmond ? BILL YODER ( in court ) ( 10:32:38 ) : I do n't remember the date , no . I do n't -- I was n't keeping a journal . ( Courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:32:42 ) : Bill said in court the same thing his text messages seemed to confirm for detectives , the romance with his wife 's sister only started after Mary died . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ she was asked the same question . KATHY RICHMOND ( in court ) ( 10:32:56 ) : ( 10:32:56 ) : The romantic relationship began sometime in September . Late September , mid-September . ( Courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:33:05 ) : But this woman , one of Kathy 's neighbors , told a different story . She said she 'd seen the two kissing on Kathy 's porch a couple of weeks before Mary 's death . UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN ( in court ) ( 10:33:15 ) : Bill was holding Kathy and he was kissing her and looking in her eyes and I -- it was very intense . ( Photo of Bill Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:33:25 ) : The defense said not only did Bill have a new relationship , he 'd just received a big pile of money , too . CHRISTOPHER PELLI ( in court ) ( 10:33:31 ) : I have to ask you how much you -- you inherited in total from your father 's estate ? BILL YODER ( in court ) ( @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Photo of Mary Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:33:39 ) : In the eyes of the defense , that made Mary expendable . JANINE KING ( 10:33:43 ) : Mary had been the primary breadwinner for quite a long time . He 'd gotten an inheritance . Now , he no longer needed Mary . ( Photo of Mary and Bill Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:33:51 ) : And the defense wanted the jury to know that Bill never called for an investigation . CHRISTOPHER PELLI ( in court ) ( 10:33:55 ) : Bill is at fault for not going to the police . ( Photo of Mary and Bill Yoder ; exterior of chiropractor 's office ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:34:01 ) : So , if Bill had motive , did he also have opportunity ? Bill denied he was in the office the day Mary got sick . Remember , her patients had n't seen him . But Katie 's defense said that did n't mean he was n't there . This witness used to work with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ) ( 10:34:19 ) : Do you remember specifically ever being told I do n't want anybody to know that I 'm here ? UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN ( in court ) ( 10:34:24 ) : Sometimes he might say , you know , do n't let -- do n't tell the patient I 'm here because they might want to see me . ( Exterior of hospital ; Jeanna Marraffa ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:34:31 ) : The defense also suggested Bill had a second opportunity to harm his wife when he was by her side at the hospital . Toxicologist Jeanna Marraffa told the jury she could n't rule out that Mary got a second dose of poison . CHRISTOPHER PELLI ( 10:34:46 ) : If there was a second dose , then there 's no possibility -- no possibility that Kaitlyn could have been involved , because she did n't have access to -- to Mary at that particular time . ANDREA CANNING ( 10:34:55 ) : Did you feel that this case was just swimming in reasonable doubt ? CHRISTOPHER PELLI ( 10:34:59 ) : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . ( Courtroom proceedings ; photos of interior of office ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:35:02 ) : The defense told the jury there was an innocent explanation for much of the state 's case against Katie . Katie 's DNA had been found on the colchicine bottle . But , as office manager , she handled everything delivered to the practice . As for the sales rep who said she 'd talked to a woman with a sweet young voice -- CHRISTOPHER PELLI ( 10:35:21 ) : Dr. Mary Yoder is rather soft spoken and young sounding and very vibrant herself . ( Photos of interior of office ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:35:27 ) : And think about this , the defense attorney told the jury Bill had access to Katie 's work computer and office typewriter . ( 10:35:35 ) : If Bill were to frame Katie , you believe it would n't be all that hard ? CHRISTOPHER PELLI ( 10:35:41 ) : No . I mean , Katie worked at -- at -- at the office . He -- he would @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ circumstances that led to her being charged . ( Search results ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:35:56 ) : But what about those searches for colchicine on Katie 's phone ? ( 10:36:00 ) : How do you get around that ? She 's looking up this very rare drug that I had never heard of until I started working on this story . CHRISTOPHER PELLI ( 10:36:06 ) : The prosecution could n't say that Katie searched this particular term prior to Mary 's death . It was -- it appeared that it was afterwards . ( Courtroom proceedings ; photo of Adam Yoder and Katie Conley ; Conley sister ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:36:14 ) : The defense said the evidence against Katie was n't there and the state 's motive ? Preposterous . The idea that Katie killed Mary to get back together with Adam did n't make any sense , he said . According to her sisters , she was the one who initially dumped him . SARAH CONLEY ( 10:36:31 ) : Finally , she just had enough . She @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Letter ; photo of Katie Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:36:36 ) : As for the anonymous letter pointing the finger at Adam , the defense never explained why Katie wrote it if Bill was the real killer . But he wanted the jury to see the lengths Katie had gone to help the investigation , enduring hours of intense questioning . ( 10:36:52 ) : You wanted the jury to know how cooperative Katie was with the authorities . CHRISTOPHER PELLI ( 10:36:56 ) : Yes . Yes , I did . She had the opportunity on , I believe , seven different occasions to say , you know what ? I want an attorney . But instead , she continued to cooperate and be subjected to some pretty severe interrogation tactics . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( interrogation video ) ( 10:37:14 ) : Then if you did n't do it , you know who did it . KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:37:16 ) : I do n't know . ( 10:37:18 ) : I would n't risk my life for this . ( @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ voiceover ) ( 10:37:20 ) : Detectives lied to Katie about some of the evidence . That 's why the defense said the jury should ignore anything Katie said during that interview . CHRISTOPHER PELLI ( in court ) ( 10:37:29 ) : Do you think that your daughter -- your twenty-three-year-old could give an accurate statement under those conditions ? I -- I -- not . ( Courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:37:39 ) : Detectives say their techniques were by the book . But Mary 's sister Sharon could n't believe what Katie went through . SHARON MILLS ( 10:37:46 ) : At that point , I wished that I had never called for an investigation . ( Sallie Bakert , Sharon Mills and Janine King ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:37:50 ) : Sharon was more convinced than ever that Katie was innocent and Bill guilty . She said as much in open court . SHARON MILLS ( in court ) ( 10:37:57 ) : It is still my theory that he killed my sister . LAURIE LISI ( in court @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 10:38:01 ) : What if you 're wrong ? What if she really did do this ? Have you thought about that ? JANINE KING ( 10:38:05 ) : We just -- SALLIE BAKERT ( 10:38:06 ) : Every once in a while and -- it 's just -- just so not -- JANINE KING ( 10:38:10 ) : We have tried to wrap -- SALLIE BAKERT ( 10:38:12 ) : -- true that -- yeah . JANINE KING ( 10:38:12 ) : -- our heads around it a thousand ways -- SALLIE BAKERT ( 10:38:13 ) : Yeah . JANINE KING ( 10:38:14 ) : -- to see if there 's any way possible that we think she could 've done this . And it just does n't make sense . SALLIE BAKERT ( 10:38:19 ) : No . JANINE KING ( 10:38:20 ) : We do n't believe she did this . SALLIE BAKERT ( 10:38:21 ) : No . ( Courthouse ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:38:22 ) : But what would the jury think ? There was one more surprise to come . LESTER @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ -- CHRISTOPHER PELLI ( 10:38:30 ) : I actually thought that that we 'd have a verdict in fifteen or twenty minutes of not guilty . ( Courtroom proceedings ; exterior of courthouse ) LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 10:38:35 ) : -- deliberations defy predictions . The wait for a decision would take far longer than that . SHARON MILLS ( 10:38:42 ) : We were totally terrified . LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 10:38:44 ) : When DATELINE continues . ( ANNOUNCEMENTS ) ( Courthouse ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:41:41 ) : It was up to a jury to decide if Katie Conley was Mary 's killer . In the courthouse , Mary 's divided family waited . Her husband and children on one side , three of her sisters on the other , still in Katie 's corner . SHARON MILLS ( 10:41:56 ) : Janine and I both have daughters in their twenties . We were totally terrified for her . ( Courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:42:02 ) : But defense attorney Chris Pelli was confident @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : I actually thought that after I gave my closing , that we 'd have a verdict in fifteen or twenty minutes of not guilty . ANDREA CANNING ( 10:42:13 ) : What was it like waiting for the verdict ? CHRISTOPHER PELLI ( 10:42:16 ) : Oh , well , the first twenty minutes were okay . But then it went on for day one and day two . ( Exterior of courthouse ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:42:22 ) : Two days became three . What were they talking about in there ? The detective hoped the jury would see past the pretty , put-together young woman in court . ( 10:42:32 ) : Was Katie really what she seemed ? ROBERT NELSON ( 10:42:34 ) : Katie , I believe , has another side to her , other than this side that everybody sees from her , that she presents to everybody . ANDREA CANNING ( 10:42:40 ) : If this is true , this is a diabolical side ? ROBERT NELSON ( 10:42:43 ) : Yes . An evil side . ANDREA CANNING ( @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . LIANA HEDGE ( 10:42:47 ) : There was another side of Katie that we had not known was there . TAMARYN YODER ( 10:42:52 ) : Right . ( Exterior of courthouse ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:42:54 ) : The jury deliberated all through day four . And on day five , they passed a note to the judge . JUDGE ( 10:43:00 ) : This will be a hung jury . ( Courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:43:04 ) : There was no verdict . The crowd went silent . Afterwards , Katie 's attorney spoke to some jurors . They told him eight of them wanted to acquit Katie , and that the weakest part of the state 's case was Bill . ( 10:43:19 ) : Did you feel that they were believing that he was lying ? CHRISTOPHER PELLI ( 10:43:22 ) : They told me under no uncertain circumstances that he was full of it . ( Bill Yoder at courthouse ; exterior of courthouse ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:43:28 ) : But Bill @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . He told DATELINE he did not poison Mary and had nothing to do with her death . And no matter what Katie 's defense thinks , he can never be charged . As a witness at Katie 's grand jury hearing , he was given automatic immunity from prosecution . ( 10:43:48 ) : No matter what happens , is he protected for life ? CHRISTOPHER PELLI ( 10:43:50 ) : For life , forever . Forever . ( Tamaryn Yoder and Liana Hedge ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:43:52 ) : Mary 's daughters were thankful for that . The accusations against their father had made the trial even more painful . LIANA HEDGE ( 10:44:00 ) : It was just one malicious attack after another . My dad had never attacked anyone -- TAMARYN YODER ( 10:44:05 ) : No . LIANA HEDGE ( 10:44:05 ) : -- in his life . He was just a broken , seventy-year- old man that was barely functioning . ( Exterior of courthouse ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:44:13 ) : Now , they prepared to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ) : There was no hesitation . We were going back . We were retrying the case . We needed to get justice for this family and for this woman . ( Exterior of courthouse ; courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:44:25 ) : Five months later , everyone filed back into the Oneida County Courthouse for trial number two . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( in court ) ( 10:44:31 ) : All rise . ( Courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:44:33 ) : The prosecutor 's case was virtually the same . She said everything investigators unearthed pointed to Katie as Mary 's killer . LAURIE LISI ( in court ) ( 10:44:41 ) : The evidence will show that all roads lead to Kaitlyn Conley . ( Courtroom proceedings ; photo of Katie Conley ; courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:44:47 ) : But Katie had a new defense attorney and a new twist to her strategy . He said , yes , Katie was innocent . And yes , Katie was framed . But this time @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ at someone else . FRANK POLICELLI ( in court ) ( 10:45:04 ) : Ladies and gentlemen , it was Adam . It was Adam . ( Photo of Adam Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:45:08 ) : Adam , Mary 's son . Defense attorney Frank Policelli argued that the crime happened just the way Katie described in that letter . ( Colchicine bottle ) FRANK POLICELLI ( in court ) ( 10:45:16 ) : He put the colchicine in her supplements when he was over there either Mother 's Day or Father 's Day , when he had a falling out . ( Digital logs ; receipt ; photo of Adam Yoder and Katie Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:45:25 ) : As for how Katie 's digital fingerprints ended up on everything related to the colchicine transaction , Katie 's attorney suggested that could easily have been Adam . FRANK POLICELLI ( in court ) ( 10:45:36 ) : How do you know , first of all , that she was the one that was researching the poison , since Adam @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ time he wanted it ? ( David King ; photo of Adam Yoder and Katie Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:45:47 ) : A key witness this time was Adam 's cousin and former roommate , David King . In the years since Mary 's death , David had come to doubt Adam , and defend Katie . ( 10:45:58 ) : Do you believe Katie had anything to do with the murder of Mary Yoder ? DAVID KING ( 10:46:02 ) : No . Not at all . ( Courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:46:06 ) : On the stand , David told the jury Adam was no novice with computers . FRANK POLICELLI ( in court ) ( 10:46:11 ) : Are you familiar with Adam 's expertise in computers ? DAVID KING ( in court ) ( 10:46:15 ) : I -- I helped him build a computer in the past . He was going to school for computer science . ( Courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:46:20 ) : The defense said Adam could have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ need to . David testified he saw Adam with Katie 's laptop . FRANK POLICELLI ( in court ) ( 10:46:29 ) : And how do you know he had her laptop ? DAVID KING ( in court ) ( 10:46:31 ) : I had asked him about it , since it was in a flowery laptop sleeve and it had a picture of a Victorian background . That just did n't suit Adam 's character , so I asked him about it . He said it was Katie 's . ( Courtroom proceedings ; chiropractor 's office ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:46:43 ) : And the defense said Adam had access to Katie 's work computer , too . David testified that years earlier , he and Adam used to drop by the office when no one else was there . DAVID KING ( 10:46:54 ) : I had helped Adam clean the office a number of times . FRANK POLICELLI ( in court ) ( 10:46:56 ) : Do n't think that Adam did n't have free reign of that office , ladies and gentleman @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ wanted to , okay ? ( Courtroom proceedings ; police interview video of Katie Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:47:04 ) : And the defense said there was something else . Something important . Remember in her interview with detectives how fearful Katie said she was of Adam ? KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:47:13 ) : You ca n't protect me . ROBERT NELSON ( interrogation video ) ( 10:47:15 ) : Protect you from what , Adam ? KATIE CONLEY ( interrogation video ) ( 10:47:16 ) : Yeah . ( Police interview video of Katie Conley ; photo of Adam Yoder and Katie Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:47:16 ) : Katie 's attorney said there was a good reason for Katie to be afraid . He said Adam had abused Katie , both physically and sexually . FRANK POLICELLI ( in court ) ( 10:47:26 ) : He beat her . He hit her . He raped her . He used her . Why would n't she be scared of him ? ( Exterior of police station ; @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ) : A year before Mary 's death , Katie filed a police report accusing Adam of rape . The defense read a text message Katie wrote to Adam . Katie 's words describing the attack . FRANK POLICELLI ( in court ) ( 10:47:44 ) : " You grabbed my right wrist and said you 'd snap my wrist and break every one of my fingers . I 'm going to kill you . I 'm going to kill you , Katie . The way you said it , the way you looked at me -- and then I was afraid . " ( Photo of Adam Yoder and Katie Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:47:57 ) : Adam denied the allegation , and Katie dropped the complaint . But the defense hoped the jury would see Katie as a victim , not as a killer . FRANK POLICELLI ( in court ) ( 10:48:07 ) : There 's no motive in this case . She loved Mary Yoder , and there 's nothing in this case to indicate that her actions were anything order than @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( in court ) ( 10:48:18 ) : The people call Adam Yoder to the stand . ( Adam Yoder in court ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:48:22 ) : Adam Yoder had given his side of the story to investigators early on . What would he say now ? LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 10:48:30 ) : Coming up -- ADAM YODER ( in court ) ( 10:48:31 ) : The pain kept getting worse . I could n't even get out of bed . ( Courtroom proceedings ; photo of Adam Yoder and Katie Conley ) LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 10:48:34 ) : -- a son on the stand with a devastating claim . Had Katie used poison on him ? ANDREA CANNING ( 10:48:40 ) : Do you believe that Katie gave him something that made him sick ? TAMARYN YODER ( 10:48:42 ) : Absolutely . LIANA HEDGE ( 10:48:43 ) : Absolutely . ( Courtroom proceedings ) LESTER HOLT ( voiceover ) ( 10:48:44 ) : Who would the jury believe ? And would there be a verdict @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ; Katie Conley ; photo of Mary and Bill Yoder ; photo of Adam Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:51:48 ) : At the first trial , the defense said Katie had been framed by Mary 's husband , Bill . But at trial number two , the alternate suspect right from the start was Mary 's son . FRANK POLICELLI ( in court ) ( 10:51:59 ) : Ladies and gentlemen , it was Adam . It was Adam . ANDREA CANNING ( 10:52:03 ) : Did it feel like your brother was on trial ? LIANA HEDGE ( 10:52:05 ) : Oh , yes , absolutely . And it just was one allegation after another . ( Adam Yoder in court ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:52:11 ) : Now , in court Adam took the stand to respond to the defense firsthand . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( in court ) ( 10:52:16 ) : Good morning . ADAM YODER ( in court ) ( 10:52:16 ) : Good morning . ( Courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:52:18 ) : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and he did not plant evidence on Katie 's computers or phone . A prosecution computer expert said Katie 's devices had never been hacked . And Adam told the jury he was hardly the hacker Katie 's side portrayed . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( in court ) ( 10:52:35 ) : Do you have hacking skills ? Are you able to break into systems ? ADAM YODER ( in court ) ( 10:52:38 ) : No , I do not , and no , I am not . ( Photo of Adam Yoder and Katie Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:52:39 ) : To the defense 's claim that Adam physically abused Katie , he did admit to one incident . ADAM YODER ( in court ) ( 10:52:46 ) : I snapped and I slapped her a few times . I regretted it immediately . I left the house . ( Courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:52:54 ) : But as for the alleged rape , no charges were ever filed against Adam . And he told the jury he had zero @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ been drinking heavily . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( in court ) ( 10:53:06 ) : So was this essentially a blackout period ? ADAM YODER ( in court ) ( 10:53:08 ) : Yes , it was . ( Photo of Adam Yoder and Katie Conley ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:53:10 ) : He said the next morning things seemed fine between them . It was n't until about three months later that Katie accused him in that graphic text message . ADAM YODER ( in court ) ( 10:53:19 ) : I was in shock . I did n't know how to react . And I was panicking . Ultimately , I had drank enough to black out that night , so I could n't defend myself . I did n't have a version of the story to say to -- to her in response . ( Courtroom proceedings ; bottle ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:53:36 ) : But Adam did have a story about Katie , an accusation of his own . And it was a stunner . Adam suggested Katie might have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ his mother 's death , he said Katie handed him a bottle of supplements to help him get through final exams . ADAM YODER ( in court ) ( 10:53:54 ) : She told me it 's to help basically focus , boost memory . She said make sure I take it consecutively and consistently because it works better over time . ( Exterior of hospital ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:54:07 ) : After taking the pills , Adam said he became so sick , he had to go to the ER . ADAM YODER ( 10:54:12 ) : The vomiting and the pain . I started experiencing severe abdomen pain and eventually severe back pain as well . ( Exterior of hospital ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:54:21 ) : That 's just how Mary 's illness began . ( 10:54:23 ) : Do you believe that Katie gave him -- TAMARYN YODER ( 10:54:24 ) : Absolutely . ANDREA CANNING ( 10:54:24 ) : -- something that made him sick ? LIANA HEDGE ( 10:54:26 ) : Absolutely . ( Courtroom proceedings ; @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ( 10:54:27 ) : Katie 's defense said she had nothing to do with Adam 's illness . In fact , the state 's own lab experts tested the remaining supplements in the bottle and found no poison . But the prosecution 's suggestion was clear -- maybe Katie tried out the colchicine on Adam first . ADAM YODER ( in court ) ( 10:54:46 ) : I asked her if she had poisoned me in a joking way . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( in court ) ( 10:54:48 ) : And what did she say ? ADAM YODER ( in court ) ( 10:54:51 ) : That , no , she would never hurt me . ( Courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:54:52 ) : Like his father , Adam had full immunity from prosecution , and he was also cleared by investigators . He maintained his innocence in court . UNIDENTIFIED MAN ( in court ) ( 10:55:02 ) : Did you ever cause colchicine in any way , accidentally or intentionally , to be ingested by your mother ? ADAM YODER ( in court @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:55:10 ) : And there was one last discovery that pointed away from Adam . Right before the second trial , the state 's computer experts got their hands on a digital backup of Katie 's phone . In the files , they found evidence of more incriminating searches . LAURIE LISI ( 10:55:26 ) : Before she actually honed in on colchicine , she looked at arsenic , she looked at thallium , she looked at cyanide . ( In court ) ( 10:55:35 ) : I submit to you , ladies and gentlemen , that the evidence is clear , and that the common denominator is this defendant , Kaitlyn Conley . ( Courtroom proceedings ; jury box ; photo of Conley family ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:55:47 ) : Once again , Katie 's fate was in the hands of a jury , twelve men and women who would either send her to prison for much of her life , or home to her family , a free woman . KATHY CONLEY ( 10:55:59 ) : It @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is what she did . This is not her . She 's the same , nice , nurturing , helping person that she was and always has been . ( Exterior of courthouse ; photo of Katie Conley and photo of Mary Yoder ; exterior of courthouse ; courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:56:14 ) : The charge was second degree murder . But after all that testimony and over the objections of the defense , the judge allowed the jury to consider a lesser charge of manslaughter . To convict , the jury would only have to find that Katie intended to hurt Mary , not kill her . A day passed without word . On day two , the judge received a note . JUDGE ( in court ) ( 10:56:38 ) : The note reads " hung jury . " ( Courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:56:40 ) : It was looking like another mistrial . The thought was exasperating for Mary 's children . LIANA HEDGE ( 10:56:47 ) : We almost got to the point -- TAMARYN @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 10:56:48 ) : -- where we 're , like , we were -- you know , is this all ever going to be worth it ? ( Courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:56:53 ) : The judge encouraged the jury to keep trying . JUDGE ( in court ) ( 10:56:56 ) : I urge that each of you make every possible effort . ( Courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:57:01 ) : And just two hours later -- JUDGE ( in court ) ( 10:57:03 ) : The record will reflect that the jury has reentered the courtroom indicating that they have reached a verdict . ( Courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:57:09 ) : First , the most serious charge . UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN ( in court ) ( 10:57:11 ) : Murder in the second degree , how do you find the defendant ? Guilty or not guilty ? UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN ( in court ) ( 10:57:16 ) : Not guilty . ( Courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:57:17 ) : Not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a crime that could send her to prison for up to twenty five years ? UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN ( in court ) ( 10:57:24 ) : Guilty or not guilty ? UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN ( in court ) ( 10:57:26 ) : Guilty . ( Courtroom proceedings ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:57:29 ) : As Katie absorbed the news , her mom had to be escorted out in tears . Katie tried to reassure her family . But her sisters were distraught . UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN ( in court ) ( 10:57:41 ) : Katie , we love you . We love you . ( Sallie Bakert , Janine King and Sharon Mills ; Katie Conley in court ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:57:44 ) : As were Mary 's sisters . Without them , an investigation may never have happened . Now , someone they thought was innocent was headed to prison . JANINE KING ( 10:57:53 ) : Well , you know , there 'll be an appeal and we 'll be involved in that . And do whatever we can . ANDREA CANNING ( 10:57:58 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? SALLIE BAKERT ( 10:58:00 ) : Have to . JANINE KING ( 10:57:59 ) : Yes . SHARON MILLS ( 10:57:59 ) : Oh , definitely . ANDREA CANNING ( 10:58:01 ) : Was justice done with the guilty verdict ? LIANA HEDGE ( 10:58:04 ) : There 's an accountability . TAMARYN YODER ( 10:58:05 ) : Yes , she did not -- LIANA HEDGE ( 10:58:06 ) : And -- TAMARYN YODER ( 10:58:06 ) : -- get away with it . ( Courthouse ; photo of Mary and Bill Yoder and kids ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:58:09 ) : Mary 's daughters are relieved the trial is over but they mourn the family they once had . So many lives shattered . ( 10:58:17 ) : This destroyed an entire family . LIANA HEDGE ( 10:58:20 ) : Yeah . TAMARYN YODER ( 10:58:20 ) : Not just whole family . ANDREA CANNING ( 10:58:20 ) : Not just the death , but -- TAMARYN YODER ( 10:58:21 ) : Not just our family . It destroyed her family . It destroyed so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hoping to finally be able to go back to the -- the good memories and not have to relive the worst one . We want to be able to actually celebrate her life . ( Photos of Mary Yoder ) ANDREA CANNING ( voiceover ) ( 10:58:40 ) : Mary 's loved ones may be divided over who killed her , but there 's one thing they can agree on . It 's not how Mary died that should be remembered . It 's how she lived . LIANA HEDGE ( 10:58:52 ) : She could light up any room , any situation . I mean , she was there for you no matter what . No matter when you called -- TAMARYN YODER ( 10:58:57 ) : Mm-Hm . LIANA HEDGE ( 10:58:58 ) : -- no matter what you needed your mom for . SALLIE BAKERT ( 10:59:01 ) : The world is not as wonderful a place as it was . JANINE KING ( 10:59:04 ) : Mary was -- SALLIE BAKERT ( 10:59:04 ) : Mary loved life more than anyone else I ever knew . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ( 10:59:08 ) : And she made a point of loving it . She really did . SALLIE BAKERT ( 10:59:10 ) : Yeah , she did . ( Photo of Mary Yoder ) LESTER HOLT ( 10:59:13 ) : That 's all for this edition of DATELINE . We 'll see you again next Friday at nine/eight Central . And of course , I 'll see you each weeknight for NBC NIGHTLY NEWS . I 'm Lester Holt . For all of us at NBC News , good night .

@@4171241 @!JENNIFER# Well , first , I wanted to say thank you for having me here today , and I 'm so honored to speak on behalf of this population that often goes overlooked . I want to say about MBC that people from all walks of life have this , women my age , women younger than me , men , all get this disease . I 'm a mom of three . I was diagnosed with breast cancer when I was 38 and carrying my youngest child . And I 'm happy to report today that she 's a happy healthy five-year-old . @!JENNIFER# But everybody has different ideas about what somebody is going through living with MBC . We just want to have normal lives . We do n't always look sickly when we 're undergoing treatment , and we just want to live longer . And the way to get there is through funding and research . And that 's what gives somebody like me hope to move forward . Yes , Jennifer , I understand you 've actually created conversation cards to help people talk about cancer . Can you tell me a little more @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with MBC I had a lot of anxiety about how to deal with this new turn of events , and it was difficult for me to know how to speak with my friends and family and for them to know how to approach me . That 's what gave me and my friend Andrea here to create , the idea to create Cancer Conversation Cards . And they 're a set of cards that offer , they 're designed for anybody who has cancer , any type of cancer , any age . And they are designed to give welcoming and friendly approaches to open up this conversation with a loved one . And I just feel we should , need to give more attention to metastatic breast cancer . More attention leads to more conversation , more understanding and ultimately more funding and innovation . Great , and we want everybody to know more about MBC , so throughout the hour we 'll be sharing facts about this cancer on the bottom of the screen . And to help Jennifer and others fight MBC , go to Twitter and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , for every tweet , Lily , Eli Lily will donate $100 to Living Beyond Breast Cancer , an organization that educates and supports people in the MBC community . So , our goal today is to raise $250,000 during this show . So please start tweeting now because we know we can come to our viewers and say , can we help make a difference in somebody 's life . And we believe you can help us . So get on that Twitter , girls and boys and start tweeting , honey . We got $250,000 to raise today . We 'll be right back . Go on , just try to catch your breath , America , because this will be even more terrifying than our political hot topics . It 's going to be a horror , a horror . Yes , this will be . Very scary . My God . Tuesday it 's the to-die-for Halloween spine-chilling spectacular . We in danger , girl . What will they wear , who will they be and what scary mad fun will JB Smoove and Yvette Nicole @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ even got your golden ticket with a performance from the Broadway smash " Charlie and the Chocolate Factory . " Tuesday , party with us on " The View . " Still ahead , Jenna Bush Hager and Barbara Bush reveal how it felt to see their father talking politics again . Welcome back . As I mentioned before we went to break , we 're on a mission to raise awareness about metastatic breast cancer , and we want to make sure you 're still tweeting to help us do that . Use the hashtag #moreformbc to show your support , and for every tweet , Lily is going to donate $100 . Now come on , help us reach that $250,000 goal . If anybody can do it , people who watch " The View " can do it . So , start tweeting . And you know I never tell you to do that . Now , on a completely different note , the floodgates are open against sexual harassment now . There are 300 sexual assault allegations against director James Toback , seven against " Game @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of them are denying it . But now Ellen DeGeneres is catching some heat for tweeting this picture for Katy Perry 's birthday , with the message , " It 's time to bring out the big balloons . " Now , people are asking , if a guy did that , would we be okay with it ? Okay , well first of all , that 's a play off some of her lyrics in a song , just to , and as you can see from the faces in the picture , they 're all laughing at the joke . So , it 's important not to confuse a moment among people that are comfortable , with power plays and using sexual acts for favors , but I also have a , I do have a bit of double standard on this because Ellen and Portia are gay , and think this is the reason . it 's more important that people that are gay are normalized and you see they 're just like us , and they 're everywhere , because there are a lot of places @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ friend , or you do n't have someone you know , maybe you only see it on your social media feed . And just like it 's important to see healthy body image because we 're feeding our brains constantly , all day long , it 's important for people that do n't have much diversity where they live to see , this is okay , this is normal . I mean , I happen to be close to the issue because my brother is gay , but it 's really important that the good in this picture is more important than anything I see as yes , if a guy was lecherous and said nice , you know , then it would be gross , but this picture to me does more good than bad . Well , but like you said , it 's important to know that all three of them were in it together . Well , they 're dying laughing . All three of them are friends . This is n't , you 're not feeling intimidated or assaulted by my particular actions . So @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ argument if a guy were to do this , everyone would be offended , because if a guy did that , I would feel , I would feel intimidated . I would feel like I do n't want you to do that . It depends who the guy is . If you have a relationship , and it 's funny , and you 're in a group , and you 're laughing , and you 're making a play on some of my lyrics , there 's still a way guy could be ... You have lyrics ? I do n't sing , but ... I do n't know that I , I would n't like it . if a guy did this , we would all be up in arms given the current environment , where we are finally as women coming forward and talking about sexual harassment and sexual assault . I just never think that sexualizing and objectifying a woman is ever funny . That 's just my , my , my view . But I wonder ... So you do n't like this , you do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it either because I 've had this done to me before where , I mean , I 'm not a skinny girl , and I 've had really big boobs since I was 15 . And sometimes people think that , like , it 's a party trick of some kind . And I 've literally had to tell people , like , please do n't take , I remember a really good friend of mine took a picture like that on my birthday , and I was , like , can we not , like , make a face like this when I 'm , like , holding a martini and wearing a low-cut dress . And sexualizing . If you 're okay with it , if Katy Perry is , like , whatever , I 'm a pop star , I 'm okay with this , fine , whatever . But just , like , any time when you 're talking about women 's bodies , especially right now , and I have , it has nothing to do with the fact they 're gay or not gay @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ me , I 'm relieved we 're finally having these conversations that so many things that are open secrets in the industry . I mean , Mark Halperin is very well-known political journalist . He wrote " Game Change " about my father 's campaign , which was turned into a HBO movie , I believe he won a Golden Globe Award . These are people who are commanding the narrative of all forms of media . So , I 'm happy we 're finally calling them out and finally , you know , alleged , these alleged accusations . But I 'm glad people , men who maybe behave a certain way should know that we are at a tipping point right now , and you better start behaving like the gentlemen I hope your mother raised you to be . Exactly . And if not , corporate culture needs to get involved . I mean , I was thinking , do men need to be trained to act like decent human beings in the workplace ? Is that where we 're at ? it should come more natural @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is this was posted on social media because typically predatory behavior and assault and everything is when you get someone by themselves , and silence is the ammo . So the idea that this was put out into the ether ... I might just be , it 's bad timing . It 's bad timing . It 's bad timing . Poor taste and bad timing . Because we know Ellen , we all know Ellen , and , you know , she 's , what we 're talking about and what she 's doing is two separate things . But people were saying if a guy , if they knew the gentleman , if it was a guy , and this was put out , would we have a different standard ? And it seems like we 're split , maybe we would , maybe we 're not , we 're not sure . But the most important thing here is that women have now made it dangerous for men to behave that way . Yeah . It is now , there is a danger of you losing everything @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it takes . And finally . Well , yeah because women got together and say , you know what , we do n't , why do we , we do n't have to take this . What the hell ? And , you know , and too , and I also want to say , there will be times then there will be mistakes made . Yeah . And so we have to also be very diligent so we 're not sucking up everybody into this . We need to make sure we 're really diligent about this because we really only want to stop anybody who thinks this behavior is okay . This behavior could now cost you everything , everything . Yes , and it should have always been that way . I mean , if you think about it , a federal judge found out , ruled in 1977 that this kind of behavior was illegal . So it 's been 30 years , and we are still talking about it . I mean , Anita Hill , that was a watershed moment , everyone was like @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ women are not going to be sexually harassed in the workplace . That was a long time ago , and now it still continues . Remember when you said about , Meghan , that you wished someone had warned you in certain situations , if there had been allegations against someone , and you sat down with them . Yes . In one of these allegations against the director , Toback , when the girl came home and said to the agent , that was really uncomfortable , he said , yeah , I 've heard that story before . Why would you send someone in to a situation you 're aware of the mistreatment ? There should be culpability for corporations . But what you 're saying about , like , the picture with social media , I agree it 's really bad timing . I do n't like it , but there 's a big difference between a photo on social media and sexually assaulting a woman in a hotel room . we 're blanketing it too much into one thing . It is not the same thing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we really need to start , you know , at least analyzing it a little bit more . And also , like , not putting yourself in those types of situations , as well . I have a friend of mine that came up to me regarding this director Toback , and she said , he came on to me in a grocery store . She had never met him before . He gave her his business card , and so she called him . You know , he said , I want to make you star . She called him up . That 's a telltale sign right there . No , but in the phone call , in the phone call , he says , I really need to , you know , get to know you on every level , on a sexual level , and she 's , like , okay goodbye . She knew right there . She cut off any sort of contact with him . She was n't going to put herself in that type of situation . Yeah , you know , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ your integrity , offering and allowing somebody to take your integrity . There 's no upside to that because you will not feel good in five years . You 'll always have that in the back of your head . Sometimes stuff takes , I 've said this before , sometimes it takes a little longer . But I 'm telling you , when it 's you , and you did it yourself , nobody can take that from you . Nobody can point and say , well , you got that because . I 'm just saying . We 'll be right back . So , our mission continues to support everyone living with metastatic breast cancer . Keep on tweeting us , help us raise awareness , use the hashtag #moreformbc to show your support . For every tweet , Lily is going to give us $100 , so you know what that means . We got a $250,000 goal . We can do this . We can do this . That 's a lot of money for ... It 's a lot of money , but you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ can support each other , and I know we can hit that $250,000 because I 've seen it happen before . Preach . So , now maybe you 're wondering why I got , why I got all preachy like that . Amen . Well , it 's because the Ten Commandments were set in stone thousands , millions , hundreds of zillions of years ago . But some people were wondering if a little editing is in order , do n't hit me , God , it 's not me , in order for the world we live in now . So , some people think we need to lop a few commandments off . They would like to lose , just saying , do n't worship idols , do n't take the Lord 's name in vain , only 38 percent say that , worship no other God , and keep the Sabbath day holy . Less than one in three say this is important . Is n't , and this was a poll conducted by British Christians . They were Christians . They were Christians that were @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , that 94 percent still believe that stealing and killing are important . I want to know about the six percent that think stealing is okay and killing is okay . This is crazy to me . I mean , they 're the Ten Commandments , not the Ten Suggestions . Like , you 're supposed to , I mean , grew up a Catholic girl . You 're supposed to follow the commandments . I mean , they 're not only the basis of our Christianity , Christian faith , but also of the law . Like , when you study law , they talk about the commandments and sort of right and wrong and how you see it in biblical times , as well . So , I do n't know how you lop any of them off . I mean , which one do you get rid of ? Ten was already being a little skimpy . Right ? I mean , if you only have 10 to live by ... You can follow them . But some of these I do n't think I realized were @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a little rusty . I am the Lord , thy God , thou shall have no other gods before me . Like , do n't commit murder . Well , that too . That 's what that , do n't , you know ... But using the Lord 's name in vain , my mom used to say that all the time . I 've gotten a little rusty on that . But I did n't realize I was , like it was one of the ... Do you ? Do you say oh my God ? Yeah , just when I 'm excited , my sister gets mad at me . I do n't think that 's what , I do n't think that 's what they mean . they mean GD . G , yeah , ( censored by network ) . Do you think just this is a societal thing that we seem to have , like , gone back so much on what is ethical , what is moral ? When I was growing up , I went , I always went to Catholic school . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ going to hell . Like , I , like Catholic guilt is a real thing . That 's what we teach , yes . Like I always was , like , I 'm going straight , like I would always be , like , I 'm going straight to hell because I 'm thinking about the hot guy . It 's Catholic guilt . If you think you 're going to hell , where do you think I 'm going ? Well , I mean ... We Catholics are very good about that . The Presbyterians did not feel the same way about that , more feel-good . I will say , when I was , the best piece of advice I ever got , and my dad told me this when I was 15 , and I live by it , and everyone in my family lives by it . He said , do n't lie , cheat or steal , everything else is fair game . And that 's actually the commandments ... Do n't lie , cheat or steal . ... that if all us just stuck @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ easier . Well , then , she might be part of the six percent . The commandments of John McCain . And murder . But you 're doing the right thing because one of the Ten Commandments says thou shall honor thy mother and father . That 's right . That , too . That one 's non-negotiable . So you 're listening to your dad . But there 's things like , I mean , not to get too TMI , but , like , if you 're having sex before marriage , that 's a big one . That 's not , that 's not in the 10 , though . That 's not a commandment , that 's ( inaudible ) ... But when you go to Catholic school ( inaudible ) . When you go to Catholic school , that 's a very big no-no . Well , but they , here 's thing about Catholic school , okay , because I also went , I know . Catholic school in the early ' 60s and how it was in the ' 70s was very , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ people to understand that the Catholic church recognized that there would be shifts in things , you had that ability to make those decisions and say , you know what , I 'm going to go this way . And once we took the idea you had to have 400 children out of the equation , people felt a lot better . But now the most important thing is , you know , if you 're a Christian , if you 're not a Christian , if you 're just a human being , a lot of these are great to live by just as a human being , treating each other well . Well , that 's the thing . A lot of the commandments ... Do n't kill people . You know , that 's a good one . It 's like any rule as a parent , you 're just trying to protect your child . And at the end of the day , that 's what a lot of these commandments , and the great thing about the Bible and God is the same yesterday , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ though , about taking the Lord 's name in vain . You know , my parents were really strict about what we said in the home . Like , we could n't say oh , my God . We could n't say JC , we could n't say ( censored by network ) . My son , you know , we could say geez . You could geez but not ... Sus . Yes , unless you were praising him , and then you could say Jesus . But my son , you know , we used , we implement this in our home . We 're , like , we do n't say oh my God , you can say oh my gosh or oh my goodness , and my three-year-old came up to me , he goes Mommy , I know the F-word . And I was , like , oh God . And he goes , the F-word is oh my God . I was , like , all right , he knows ... We 've taught him well . I taught him well . But yes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ love a kid . I also , these commandments , like you said , they 're universal in all doctrines of major religions , and as long as we try to lead some kind of moral code , no matter what lens you view God and the afterlife is fine . But some people do n't believe in God , and that 's okay , too . But it does n't keep you from being a human being . So there are great ... Or leading a moral life . Or leading a good ... Even if you do n't believe in God , they 're still valid , commandments , right . You shall not kill , you shall not steal . That 's , that 's what I 'm saying . You should n't kill people , you should n't lie . That kind of goes without saying ( inaudible ) . Listen , nobody at this table should talk about lying ever , ever , ever , ever . But you know what we want to do , we want to just say bye to two amazing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , " and " Benson , " he was 89 , he passed away earlier this year . And let me tell you how he wanted to be remembered . He said for all , he wanted to be remembered for always playing true to himself because there 's dignity in truth , but not necessarily truth in dignity . Oh , that 's good . And the other pioneer was Antoine " Fats " Domino , child , passed at 89 , amazing musician , fabulous man . We 'll see you soon . At Blueberry Hill right ? We 'll be right back . Next , Jenna Bush Hager and Barbara Bush reveal what life is like when your grandfather and father are both presidents , and if they know what dad said that made Obama lose it .

@@4171341 @!TIM-WU# You know , something like that . It came , frankly , from that experience , which I do n't know if you 've had , where you sit down at your computer , and you have this idea you 're going to write an email or something . And then something happens and then four hours later , you look up and think , like , what just happened ? @!TERRY-GROSS# ( Laughter ) . @!TIM-WU# So it 's ( laughter ) - you know , so it 's not - it 's what I call the casino effect . It 's this effort of the environment to make you lose control of your sense of time and your attention kind of gets dragged away . And , you know , that kept happening to me , and I was like , what is going on ? And so it was n't quite the ads so much as it was the design of the web to , you know , suck you on these vortexes. @!TERRY-GROSS# So your book is about all the demands on the internet for our attention , but you focus on ads , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I find - I have to match wits with the ads . Like , there 's pop-ups that , like , move around and you have to chase them like it was a video game or something . And then there 's ads where , like , you know , the X to , like , close the ad screen is so kind of small that you ca n't find it and you have to actually go looking for it . And so I spend all my energy - instead of , like , absorbing what the advertiser wants to communicate to me , I spend my energy trying to figure out how to defeat the ad. @!TIM-WU# It 's amazingly ( laughter ) , you know , that we 've got this great scientific invention , the web and the internet , and then it 's come to this point where using it reminds me of swatting mosquitoes . Honestly , you spend 50 percent of your mental energy trying to defeat ad systems . And , you know , I - there could be a better way . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . It 's very driven with the need to grow , to get more clicks and clicks and clicks . And , you know , some of this book is about the history , and we often say that ratings kind of ruined television in the 1950s . Well , the quest for ratings looks dignified in comparison for the quest for clicks . I mean , so much engineering talent and ability has gone in to trying to make people click on things that we 've sort of almost lost the last five years of development . @!TERRY-GROSS# You write about the bargain that we make , free content in exchange for ads . Talk more about the bargain and what you think we 're - what you think 's being compromised in that bargain . @!TIM-WU# Sure . No , it 's a bargain with some historical precedent . back in the - starting with radio , starting with television , we got used to this idea of stuff being free as long as you just watch a few ads . And it 's gotten to the point @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ television - a tiny , small sphere , maybe newspapers - but it spread . This attention merchant model has spread to so many areas of our life where we 're completely used to everything being free . But then the payoff or the exchange is that we then also agree to stuff that is compromised because it is always trying to get us to click on ads at the same time . So we have this , you know , bargain that we made - and you can call it fousty ( ph ) and you can call it whatever you want - that we have just decided we have to have everything for free . And we 're starting to pay for it in terms of our mental states . @!TERRY-GROSS# I have such ambivalence about some of these things ' cause I really believe people should be paid for the work that they do . And it bothers me when people , say , you know , write for , you know , a web publication and get paid little or nothing or , you know , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the world and not pay a cent for it . Those newspapers need money in order to operate . And when you 're reading a newspaper and you 're seeing ads on the page , it 's not kind of invasive . Like , it 's on the page next to the article . You can look at it or not . You can turn the page when you 're ready . On the internet , the ads - many of the ads - just are so controlling . They insist that you see them ( laughter ) ... @!TIM-WU# Right . @!TERRY-GROSS# ... Which I suppose you can say about television , too . But I do n't know , it just seems more in your face . So I am so conflicted between my resentment at some of the more in your face internet ads and my belief that there should be a revenue stream that helps pay for the publication or for the work and helps pay the people who do it . @!TIM-WU# Yeah , no , I have two things to say about that . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ want change in this area and you want to act , you probably have to pay for stuff , pay for content . You know , that said - for some people , like , oh , my God , I 've got to pay . But , you know , people do pay . They pay for Netflix . They pay for HBO . They pay for other types - they subscribe to newspapers sometimes . And generally speaking , when you pay for stuff , it has more of your interests in heart . Movies you pay for - well , sometimes they throw some ads at the beginning now - but generally you pay for ads . And that business model - actually , much more ancient , paying for stuff - is much more straightforward in terms of the incentives of the people who are then giving you the stuff . In other words , they 're not - a lot of the websites are always serving two masters . They 're both trying to get you entertained enough to stay there or to click on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ advertising . So I have sort of a plea to people who want to change these sort of things is like maybe just suck it up and start paying for more stuff . The other problem is - that you 've alluded to this - the second thing is that in the media , traditional media like print , we had boundaries . You know , we had spaces that ads did n't leave . They stayed where they were on the page . They did n't float around over the text . And we 're kind of lost on the internet . We do n't have any barriers . We have a demand for growth that is insistent . And so advertising just keeps getting heavier and heavier and heavier . It does n't have any natural limit , and we have n't found the place for the limit . And it 's really important , therefore , that some of the revolts that are undergoing right now , you know , whether it 's ad blockers or other things , are people trying to set some lines so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ no further . And this is where it ends . And both those are very important for our future . @!TERRY-GROSS# If you 're just joining us , my guest is Tim Wu who is most famous for inventing the expression net neutrality . His new book is called " The Attention Merchants : The Epic Scramble To Get Inside Our Heads , " and it 's about advertising with an emphasis on internet advertising . Is there a moment in time where you can say this is where advertising on the internet begins for real ? @!TIM-WU# Yeah , it is with the rise of clickbait - The Huffington Post , BuzzFeed and things like that - and also with the success , frankly , of Google , making serious money off an advertising model . those are the two developments that really take us to where we are right now . You know , in the ' 90s , it was a little unclear how any of this stuff was going to make money . Some of it was going to stay nonprofit . Some of it still @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the web had stayed nonprofit . But the advertising model took over and has delivered us to where we are , along with the development of content , which is designed to do nothing else but make you click on it or share it . And it 's kind of a low goal for content , and that 's taken us to our current abyss . @!TERRY-GROSS# Let 's go back to AOL , because you talk about AOL as starting as a subscription service but then bringing advertising into the model , and something called the walled garden strategy . Could you describe that strategy and why it was important in the larger scheme of things ? @!TIM-WU# Sure . Right , so AOL is a incredibly important company in the history of our present , frankly , because they were , first of all , one of the first to have this idea that socialization would be the most successful thing to bring mainstream audiences to online computers . I mean , you have to think back to the ' 90s . The computer was this terrible-looking @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And it was this idea of email and chat rooms and this kind of stuff that first people - got people there . AOL also had the idea of the walled garden that you just mentioned , the opposite of net neutrality , which is you pay AOL to be there . And whether it 's flower delivery or news , they decide all the content you 're going to see . And , finally , AOL was one of the pioneers of the advertising business model later in their history . They started claiming billions of dollars of revenue . Later on , it turned out that most of that revenue , one way or another , was fabricated , that they were booking the same line of revenue twice or doing all sorts of other things . Eventually , the Securities and Exchange Commission went after them , and the company got in a lot of trouble . But , by then , most of the founders and the early executives were gone . So AOL sort of introduced our present in this sense of moving the Internet @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and , you know , we 're sort of living in that reality right now . @!TERRY-GROSS# Google started as a free search engine . It 's still free , but now it 's making a lot of money on ads , right ? A lot of money . Is that fair to say ? @!TIM-WU# they 're the most profitable attention ... @!TERRY-GROSS# ( Laughter ) How precise is that ? Is it making exactly a lot of money ? @!TIM-WU# ... Yeah , Google is the most successful attention merchant - profitable attention merchant in the history of the world , most successful advertising-only based company - most profitable . They started a very idealistic , beautiful company in many ways , but they did n't have a business model . The most interesting thing about Google is its founders hated advertising . And , in fact , they wrote this paper in the ' 90s saying , in its appendix , that any advertising-based search engine would always be corrupted and unable to serve its highest purposes because advertising always corrupts the goal of the search engine @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ important stuff , not the stuff someone paid there to be there . So , you know , Google is this conflicted company . they thought they could do this deal and keep advertising at bay , but year in , year out , Google is starting to get worse instead of better . this is happening to a lot of the web companies , is as their demand to increase the payload they deliver in ads increases , they end up degrading and corrupting their own services . And you can see it with Google Maps , you can see it with Google Directions , where somehow Uber is , you know , always one of the options . And it 's becoming exactly what they said was what they never wanted , which is a pay-for service where the highest bidder gets the best results . So it 's , you know , it 's sort of a cautionary tale . the best thing for companies like Google and Facebook , if they are afraid of this ethical trap of advertising , is they should start letting people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ advertising . That 's - that goes back to my idea of , you know , if you really care about content , you should pay for it . @!TERRY-GROSS# A premium service ? @!TIM-WU# Yeah , exactly - or just an ad-free version of it . You know , Facebook , would be something like $12 a year . So , you know , working those models out , so we 're less in this conflicted thing . I do n't think the engineers like it either . They do n't like building a product , which is primarily designed to get you to see an ad . They want to build the best product . That 's the way engineers are . @!TERRY-GROSS# So when Google started to turn to advertising , what did it have to offer advertisers that other sites did not ? @!TIM-WU# You know , that 's a great question . Google has you at a very specific mental state that is , looking for something . And what they 've always been able to say is , we deliver your message at the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hooks or looking for marriage counseling or looking for a lawyer for a particular problem . And here we have our customers telling you what is in their heart and soul . It 's something that , you know , advertisers have wanted for decades . When you think about normal advertising , it 's just like , hey , here 's a car and , you know , we do n't know if you 're looking for a car or not . So Google promised that mental state , and then were able to prove that delivering the message at the exact right moment would make someone click on something . So they pioneered the idea that advertising could be profitable on the internet , that a specific , very micromental state could be targeted . And they established the primacy of the click , which has haunted us ever since . @!TERRY-GROSS# If you 're just joining us , my guest is Tim Wu , and he 's the author of the new book , " The Attention Merchants : The Epic Scramble To Get Inside Our Heads @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ advertising with a focus on internet advertising and how that 's changing the internet and changing our attention . So we 're going to take a short break , and then we 'll talk some more . This is FRESH AIR . @!TERRY-GROSS# This is FRESH AIR , and if you 're just joining us , my guest is Tim Wu . He 's best known for coining the phrase , net neutrality . He has a new book called " The Attention Merchants : The Epic Scramble To Get Inside Our Heads . " It 's about how advertising , historically , has tried to get inside our heads , but the real focus is on internet advertising and how it 's changed the internet and how it 's changed our heads . Google has something called AdWords . Would you describe what that is ? @!TIM-WU# So Google 's AdWords , they allow you to bid on words that people will type into the search engine , and they cost more or less . For example , mortgage refinancing can cost - now , it 's probably hundreds @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ words , they are allowing you to bid on what people are going to type , and that is the AdWords program . So you own certain terms , and then your ads show up as opposed to someone else's. @!TERRY-GROSS# And does that affect the placement in the actual search ? @!TIM-WU# It does n't - so Google has - at least at this point - maintained the line where it keeps organic results separate from the advertisements . But over time - so in other words , you still get the - there still are honest to goodness results which are based on an algorithm which is based on how important or how many people link to that particular site , so there 's that . At the very beginning , there were unobtrusive advertisements on the side that sort of showed up when you typed in certain phrases . Over time , the amount of real estate that those ads take up has increased . They used to be sort of marked off very distinctly . Their color has gotten paler , so it looks more like @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ done to sort of crowd it and make it as much as possible like the true results . And it 's been an unfortunate development . I do n't think anyone at Google feels happy about it , but they 've been in some sense , you know , enslaved to their business model , and so they have to satisfy their advertisers . That 's the problem with this business model . I mean , all business models have something challenging about them , but the problem with the attention merchant business model they have is they need to keep increasing the amount of ads they deliver to people and therefore make their product worse . @!TERRY-GROSS# So getting back to AdWords - if you go onto the Google AdWords site , the AdWords is directing itself to potential advertisers , and it says be seen by customers at the very moment that they 're searching Google for the things you offer and only pay when they click to visit your website or call . @!TIM-WU# Right . @!TERRY-GROSS# I mean , obviously that 's a real approach that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ could n't do that on TV . Though , now on podcasts like , you know - podcast hosts are always saying and give them this , you know , code word or something , so they know that ... @!TIM-WU# Right , right . @!TERRY-GROSS# ... You found out about the advertiser through this podcast . But that 's much less scientific than actually , you know , tracing clicks . @!TIM-WU# You know , it 's one thing - advertisers for years have dreamed about , you know , microtargeting just this tiny group . They used to try - in the ' 70s , it was like can we get the right neighborhood of people who drink TaB so we can market diet coke to them ? You know , that was a neighborhood basis . Then you started trying to hone in on individuals , and now we 're trying to hone in on moments , exact moments . And this is going to become more intense in the coming decade as we start to carry more and more technology with us . We already have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are going to want to know when you 're deciding things and then offer some kind of input subtle or less so on that moment . Let 's say you 're someone 's phone , and you notice that your owner is drinking coffee at certain times of the day , just very subtly indicating where the local coffee shop is which happens to have paid , you know , whoever makes your phone at the right moment . we 're in a future where frankly we are possibly facing little tiny bits of manipulation in all of our waking hours , if we do n't have that already . @!TERRY-GROSS# Google collects a lot of information from people . What concerns you most about how Google is using that information ? @!TIM-WU# I am the most concerned that we end up in a situation where your - everything is known about you and so therefore , not only Google , but Google , Facebook , Twitter - the whole set of companies - essentially knows all your weaknesses and therefore how to manipulate you in subtle ways in order @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . In other words , I 'm concerned with our autonomy . I do n't like the idea of people collecting information on me in general , but I particularly do n't like it when it 's used to sort of exploit your weaknesses or make you lose control in some ways . And , you know , so it 's like advertising casinos to people who have gambling problems or just things that are too sensitive . If you have a disease and suddenly start getting ads for cures for that disease and it 's an embarrassing disease - all that kind of stuff it just gets into that zone of autonomy or privacy where you feel a sense of freedom to be who you want to be . And I 'm afraid when too many people know too much about you , it actually makes us all a lot more boring because you 're afraid to express yourself . This is something has really changed . So the Internet , you know , 10 or 15 years ago sort of felt like the wild West . You could @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , and , you know , find out about stuff . Now always in the back of my mind , you know , whether it 's email or whatever else , it 's like , well , is this going to show up somewhere ? Is someone going to keep track of this and , you know , know I was searching for - maybe it 's an embarrassing disease , maybe it 's a weird hobby ? Whatever it is , it 's kind of become the opposite of a freedom an enabling tool in that way because when you 're being watched , you behave a lot differently . all of us are like that . And so I 'm kind of concerned the combined effect , not only Google , all these companies is kind of to make us more boring and that seems the opposite of what this medium was supposed to be . @!TERRY-GROSS# My guest is Tim Wu . His new book is called " The Attention Merchants . " We 'll talk about advertising on YouTube and Facebook after we take a short @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ FRESH AIR . @!TERRY-GROSS# This is FRESH AIR . I 'm Terry Gross back with Tim Wu . He 's best known for coining the term net neutrality and for writing about it . Wu is a professor at Columbia Law School . His new book " The Attention Merchants " is a history of advertising that culminates with advertising on the Internet and how it 's changed the experience of being online and invaded our privacy . How did ads end up on YouTube ? Youtube started as , like - it 's a place you could put your little home videos or , you know , your favorite recording or whatever . And now , like , there 's so many videos where there 's an ad first that you have to watch . Well , like , what changed ? @!TIM-WU# Well , they decided they need to stop losing money and making a lot of money , and so they adopted an ad load which , frankly , makes television look modest by comparison . You know , often you need to watch a 30-second advertisement @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ content and so forth , and there 's banners and so forth . What changed is the business model demanded its payout . And many people were promised a lot of return on investment , and that ended up trapping YouTube into becoming something , frankly , which is much worse than it was even a few years ago . What 's so interesting about the internet - I keep saying this - is the web has gotten worse over the last five years as opposed to better . @!TERRY-GROSS# Do you know who actually decides what ad will be on what video and who 's selling the ads ? Like , is it the individual who 's uploading the video or the company that 's doing it ... @!TIM-WU# Oh , no , Terry , it 's ... @!TERRY-GROSS# ... Or is it , like , YouTube ? @!TIM-WU# Oh , no , it 's incredibly complex , and it 's based partially on the information that has been gathered about you . So , you know , if you have a weakness for furry slippers or something , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ It 's a very complicated algorithmic decision . There 's no one dude who 's deciding what ads are going with things , and it 's very individualized also . And that 's the idea of collecting information is that in theory , you 're showing people things that they should want to see or for which they are a good target . So , no , there 's no master person . @!TERRY-GROSS# And does , I mean , like , does everything get an ad or , like , how do they decide what 's worthy of an ad ? @!TIM-WU# It 's also very complicated . by this point , almost everything on YouTube has some ad or another . I mean , I do n't work there . But , you know , the only parts of the web that have escaped this are the ones that never embrace this model . I 'll bring up Wikipedia as an example . Wikipedia , a nonprofit , is an enormously popular website but has managed to operate without advertising . And , you know , maybe it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it does show there 's another way . @!TERRY-GROSS# Yeah , and Wikipedia often has a banner at the top of the page asking you to contribute money because it does n't have ads. @!TIM-WU# Right , right . And , you know , they actually do quite well with that contribution model . You know , public radio is supported by a contribution model . @!TERRY-GROSS# Yeah . @!TIM-WU# I mean , I do n't want to sit here just , like , blaming all the companies , but I want to have us ask , like , what do we want the web to be ? And we can do better ( laughter ) . So I 'm kind of calling for a - I 'm not the only one - you know , a revolution of some kind where we try to take back the web or start something new because , you know , the dominant medium of our time is in a desperate state and it does n't have to be like that . It does n't have to be somewhere where you sit down @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on stuff for four hours and losing all your time . @!TERRY-GROSS# I want to get a little later to how you think we might , quote , " take back the web . " But first I want to get to Facebook ... @!TIM-WU# Sure . @!TERRY-GROSS# ... And what its ad model is and how you think it 's changed the Facebook experience . @!TIM-WU# Yeah , so Facebook , when it began , like Google , was very resistant to advertising . They knew , like all - Mark Zuckerberg , like all good engineers , knew that advertising makes the product worse . But , you know , over time , they 've been forced to increase the advertising load more and more and more . And the way they advertise is they - it 's subtle but they know everything , you know , about everybody on the site . And so they offer you this incredible ability to customize who you want to reach . So for example , you can reach a Kinks fan in suburban New Jersey who likes large speakers or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ LP or something , so very , very customizable . But they also piggyback on your friends so that you have the impression that your friends are recommending or liking other products . And that 's been really the key , the idea of trying to harness social capital for selling purposes . That we 've let this happen so easily without clearly getting something in exchange is kind of amazing to me . You know , Google - and some of the other sites , YouTube and , you know - Google has an amazing search engine . The map product is incredible . So there 's a sort of exchange when you put up with a bunch of ads . Facebook basically gives you access to your friends who , in theory , you had access to already . So sometimes I do n't really understand the deal , but it makes it slightly easier . So that 's their contribution . @!TERRY-GROSS# How do the like buttons on Facebook help advertisers ? @!TIM-WU# Well , they - in a million different ways . But one of which @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ another site , you 've told Facebook that you 're doing that . And so therefore advertisers know who their fan base is . When you decide to like something , I mean , you may feel you 're sort of innocently putting out your preferences , but actually you 're delivering something of enormous value , which is indicating that , you know , you 'd essentially like to be advertised to by this - ( laughter ) by this company . You know , it 's so funny that the internet 's become a series of traps where you do sort of innocent things like give your name or address or indicate a preference , I like this thing , and then therefore you open yourself up to a deluge of advertising based on those stated preferences . @!TERRY-GROSS# Sometimes when I 'm on the internet , I 'll get this , like , which of these ad experiences would you prefer ? And I 'll have a choice of , like , a car , a pharmaceutical item or , you know , clothing . And I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of these . Do I have to choose ? And , like , are they all the same length ? Like , ( laughter ) you know ... @!TIM-WU# I 'm curious which one you choose , by the way . But , ( laughter ) yeah , I mean , that 's an idea . It 's sort of to at least try to make it go down a little more smoothly . You know , at least maybe - but what the holy ... @!TERRY-GROSS# But it 's also collecting more information from me . It 's like , oh , oh ... @!TIM-WU# Yeah , that 's true . @!TERRY-GROSS# ... She really likes the clothing ad . She does n't want the car . @!TIM-WU# The Holy Grail of advertising has always been advertisement that people want to watch , which occasionally happens . You know , the Super Bowl , people sit there and watch the advertisements . Some print advertising is very beautiful . @!TERRY-GROSS# And that 's because they 're really - well , you know , they 're special ads. @!TIM-WU# Right @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be wonderful , to be replayed on television because they 're state-of-the-art advertising , so they 're just not , like , common ads. @!TIM-WU# Right . And that 's the idea . They are still advertising . @!TERRY-GROSS# Yes , right . @!TIM-WU# Some of the print ads in , like , Vogue magazine are , you know , beautifully done as well , so that 's been a long - and so the Internet had that idea . They 're like , well , we 're going to give people what they want . But I do n't think it 's been very successful . You know , there was a story in England where this man had pancreatic cancer which is fatal - suddenly started getting ads for funeral homes ( laughter ) . So the theory there was that , like , that 's what he wants . He wants to hear about something relevant to him , but who wants to hear an advertisement for funeral homes when you 're dying ? You know , that 's how the model backfired . And we 're @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's always going to be merchants who need to get their message out , but things have gone way too far . And the companies themselves are trapped in this , and that 's why I 'm saying we need to find a new way . And as I said , take back the web because it is a situation that really is n't working for anyone . @!TERRY-GROSS# If you 're just joining us , my guest is Tim Wu . He 's best known for coining the expression net neutrality . His new book is about advertising , including advertising on the Internet , and it 's called " The Attention Merchants : The Epic Scramble To Get Inside Our Heads . " We 're going to take a short break , and then we 'll be right back . This is FRESH AIR . @!TERRY-GROSS# This is FRESH AIR , and if you 're just joining us , my guest is Tim Wu . And his new book is called " The Attention Merchants : The Epic Scramble To Get Inside Our Heads , " and it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ TV through , of course , the Internet . Your book goes back to the early days of advertising on radio and television . What 's one of the advertising campaigns that really shocked you , you were n't familiar with until you started doing research ? @!TIM-WU# Sure . One that really shocked me - in the ' 20s , they were big on the idea of using social humiliation as a way of selling products . So Listerine , which originally was for cleaning floors , you know - the - and it was also used for battlefield injuries and so forth . So it was this , you know , just this product and so it had the idea of advertising halitosis , bad breath , and then trying to make people feel ashamed about it and offer Listerine as the cure . Their phrase for advertising to women was always a bridesmaid , never a bride . @!TERRY-GROSS# ( Laughter ) . @!TIM-WU# And the implication was because you had bad breath and no one would tell you that no one would want to marry you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ advertising of getting to people 's anxieties and fears and making you basically feel unworthy and then needing this product to make yourself be who you should be . You know , and maybe it 's better that we do n't have bad breath , but the coerciveness of it is quite striking . @!TERRY-GROSS# In writing about the history of advertising , you also write about some propaganda , including how Hitler really understood some of the same techniques that advertisers understood . And you write ( reading ) Hitler understood the demagogues ' essential principle to teach or persuade is far more difficult than to stir emotion . @!TIM-WU# Right . @!TERRY-GROSS# And I 'm wondering if you feel like you see that playing out in American politics ? @!TIM-WU# ( Laughter ) One thing I 'll say about Hitler that many people do n't realize - and I do n't mean to besmirch the industry - but he did get his start , not only as an artist , but as an advertising man writing art for advertisements . And more than anyone else , as you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and between - and advertising , that they were in some ways the same thing . In fact , the big steps forward for advertising , especially after World War I were when government just began employing the tools of advertising for its own purposes to get people to join the army and other things . So there 's no real difference between the techniques used . And Hitler , as you said , had this understanding that you speak to people 's deepest , darkest emotions and give them voice that can be incredibly effective . So what do we see in politics ? That 's - and I want to be clear I 'm not associating anyone with Hitler themselves - what do we see in contemporary politics that might be said to follow from these lessons ? One thing that all the totalitarian states did was make the great leader 's face everywhere . And I will say in this campaign , one candidate in particular has been incredibly successful . Now , he does n't control the media , but Donald Trump has been incredibly successful @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ go a day without seeing that face somewhere maybe 10 times . Sometimes you go to a website - a news website . It 's repeated 40 times and through an operation of a private media , we somehow have replicated some of the visuals of a totalitarian state . I want to say , however , one thing our media has done which did n't happen in other totalitarian states is it has very effectively stood up to Donald Trump who has obvious fascist tendencies and his - who 's a temptation like all authoritarian figures to try to crush the media or make it obey him . As that - the media has , in fact , stood up to him and has refused to bow out or cower . @!TERRY-GROSS# So you are best known for coining the term net neutrality . @!TIM-WU# Sure . @!TERRY-GROSS# And let me let you describe because you 'll do it better than I will what net neutrality means . @!TIM-WU# Net neutrality is the principle that the service providers who control or access , who own the pipes , should @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you know , an even playing field for stuff on the Internet , and , you know , it 's very important to the medium that it have a rough quality among contents . Everyone has their shot . @!TERRY-GROSS# So that one , like , site ca n't have faster ... @!TIM-WU# So we 're not like the Chinese Internet where the telecom providers , people who own the pipes , block many sites outright . Sometimes they favor some government sites over other sites . It 's a noncensorship principle for the people who own the pipes . @!TERRY-GROSS# So in February of 2015 , the FCC ruled in favor of net neutrality , and they reclassified broadband access as a telecommunications service . So would you explain what that means and where we are now with net neutrality ? @!TIM-WU# Sure . The FCC in - as you just said , now has in place a net neutrality rule very strong rule . it was courageous of the Obama administration to pass it . And so right now it is illegal for a service provider to censor @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ or to privilege someone who pays them extra money . So it 's basically a level playing field . it was a great victory . It does n't solve all the problems of our time , but we 've gotten a much better place . @!TERRY-GROSS# But that 's being appealed is n't it ? @!TIM-WU# It was appealed , and the government won . @!TERRY-GROSS# OK. @!TIM-WU# They 're trying to get the Supreme Court interested , but I do n't think they 'll take the case . @!TERRY-GROSS# On John Oliver 's first season on HBO , he did a big thing on net neutrality , and the FCC was just , like deluged with emails telling it that it should rule in favor of net neutrality . Did you work with with John Oliver at all on that ? What was the experience of watching that play out like for you ? @!TIM-WU# What my experience was , as I realize , that John Oliver is a much better communicator than I am. @!TERRY-GROSS# ( Laughter ) . @!TIM-WU# I 've been trying ( laughter ) . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it 's ... @!TIM-WU# Yes . @!TERRY-GROSS# ... There 's so much kind of bureaucracy involved with the whole concept of net neutrality and like technical stuff . So yeah - he made it like funny and lively ... @!TIM-WU# So he had this great thing ... @!TERRY-GROSS# Yeah , go ahead . @!TIM-WU# No , I 'll say that , you know , here I 'd been trying to explain this to the public for 10 years or more . And , you know , fast lane , slow lane , and he came up with this , on the air . We - public broadcasting we ca n't use obscenities , but he basically said it 's very clear what this is . This is cable company F-ery . I 'll skip the obscenity . And I was like , wow , he really kind of captured it there , and he was like if you want to change this , you really need to write to the FCC . And he made it very clear . You know , the only reason net neutrality is controversial is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ if you get the idea that , you know , AT&T , Verizon or Comcast cable should just give the Internet you want when you pay for it and not try to block some sites - everyone 's like of course . Why would I want anything differently ? So I learned from that is that , you know , the man has a talent for communicating complicated subjects that I wish I had . I try , but he 's better . @!TERRY-GROSS# Since you 're a lawyer and you pay so much attention to the Internet , I 'm wondering what you think about how to control trolling ? You know , the whole like , you know , free speech versus trolling. @!TIM-WU# Yeah . You know , trolling is an ancient problem . It 's been around as long as there has been media . There 's always people - it does n't take many - who have a different psychological makeup than most of us who really get joy out of provoking . They do n't always believe the things they say , they just @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I knew people like that in elementary school - bullies of one kind or another . So there is this inherent human instinct that the usual way you control trolling is you force people to use their real identities . So there 's less trolling on Facebook , for example . But the problem with that - there 's a different problem which is when you 're trapped in your own identity and everything is really you , then you feel less freedom to sort of explore who you want to be . So it 's kind of something we 're stuck with as long as humans are the way we are . There 's always going to be a tradeoff between trolling and anonymity , and that 's the way life will be . And you can manage it , but you ca n't cure it . @!TERRY-GROSS# All right . Well , Tim Wu , thank you so much for talking with us . I enjoyed that . @!TIM-WU# Thank you . @!TERRY-GROSS# Tim Wu 's new book about the history of advertising is called " The Attention @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @

@@4171441 @!ANDERSON-COOPER , -C# Good evening . And thanks for joining us tonight . Donald Trump denying his transition is in turmoil . 20:00:00 His spokesman calling it very calm , very structured -- not the chaotic knife fight we 've been hearing about . And certainly , not a vendetta by Trump 's son-in-law Jared Kushner against the former transition chief , Chris Christie . That 's the official line . We 'll also hear about some new names being mentioned for cabinet positions . Plus , the Jared Kushner back story , how Chris Christie sent his dad to prison . Also , FOX News ' Megyn Kelly . She joins us tonight on what led up to the debate question that pretty much set the tone for the entire campaign . We begin with CNN 's Jim Acosta outside Trump Tower with the latest in the transition . What do you know , Jim ? @!JIM-ACOSTA , -CNN-SE# Yes . Well , Anderson , after days of reports of infighting and score settling inside the Trump transition team , you saw sort of an image reset from Donald Trump and his top advisors earlier today . You @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ nothing to these reports of problems inside his transition . He says everything is going smoothly . And you also saw some high profile advisors getting chatty with reporters , coming out in front of cameras . People like Jason Miller , the senior communications adviser , who said , no , there is no knife fight inside the Trump transition team . And even Newt Gingrich who is outside the D.C. transition office saying , no , no , no , we 're not going to be filling these positions right away . We have time . We 're not going to do it on the media 's timetable . But one interesting question has not been resolved yet , and that is this issue of whether or not Jared Kushner , Donald Trump 's son-in-law , the husband of Ivanka Trump , will be receiving the security clearance necessary to receive the presidential daily briefing . Kellyanne Conway , who was the campaign manager , now senior adviser , was asked this question earlier today , Anderson . She said she did n't know the answer , but @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ said , yes , it is appropriate , because if you 're going to get the presidential daily briefing , you 're going to need that kind of access . Well , Anderson , that kind of talk has prompted the top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee to fire off a letter to Mike Pence , vice president -elect , head of the transition , to say that is not appropriate , son-in-laws do not get that kind of security clearance . So , that is a question that is unresolved at this hour , Anderson . @!COOPER# We also have new reporting from the " New York Times " and also " The Wall Street Journal " , both correspondents are here with us tonight . We 'll talk with them in just a moment . But , Jim , the president-elect also met with New York 's Mayor Bill de Blasio for a little over -- a little more than an hour today . Do we know what they talked about ? Because , obviously , they could not be any more different . @!ACOSTA# No , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the spectrum , no question about it . But what Bill de Blasio came here to talk about and it 's not too hard to figure out why , is to talk about immigrant issues . And so , many of Donald Trump 's policies could potentially adversely effect Latino immigrants in this country , Muslim immigrants in this country and Bill de Blasio , the mayor of New York City , he told reporters after his meeting with Donald Trump that he told the president-elect very directly that people in this city , the largest city in America , a city that symbolizes American freedom and its openness to immigrants that people are afraid . That people are afraid of Donald Trump 's policies and what they mean for Latino immigrants and for Muslim immigrants . There was , though , answer from De Blasio as to whether or not Donald Trump would change his policies . But , you know , one big policy that Donald Trump talked about on the campaign trail , Anderson , is ending sanctuary cities and New York City is one of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on the criminal status of somebody that they pick up in an arrest off the street . That is a very critical question because what Donald Trump has said he wants to do right away once he 's inaugurated and sworn in as president of the United States is start deporting undocumented criminals . And that is going to potentially and Bill de Blasio said this to Trump earlier today , create a lot of headaches for law enforcement in these cities . And so , again , more unresolved issues for the president-elect and Bill de Blasio said he was very upfront about it earlier today . COOPER : Yes . More of that later tonight . Jim Acosta , thanks for latest . You mentioned Mayor de Blasio , a few dozen blocks down from Fifth Avenue , from Trump Tower , students in New York University fill Washington Square Park . They were joined by students nationwide protesting Trump immigration policies , pressuring officials to make their schools what they called " sanctuary campuses " , limiting cooperation when federal immigration authorities when it comes to unauthorized @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ talk about tonight with the panel . Democratic strategist and Clinton 2008 senior campaign advisor , Maria Cardona , Republican strategist and Trump critic , Ana Navarro , CNN political analyst Maggie Haberman , also " Wall Street Journal " senior special writer Monica Langley , and Trump supporters Jeffrey Lord and Andre Bauer . Monica , I want to start with you , because you just posted a story literally minutes ago on " The Wall Street Journal " about a possible role for Jared Kushner in the White House . What are you learning ? @!MONICA-LANGLEY , -SE# That 's right . He 's mulling going into the White House officially rather than an informal role as special advisor . Both Reince Priebus , who will be the chief of staff and Steve Bannon , who will be controversial strategic adviser want him there . As you probably know , Jared Kushner served as an intermediary of sorts during the campaign . @!COOPER# He had a huge role during the campaign which maybe a lot of people on the outside did n't really realize . @!LANGLEY# That 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is now Donald Trump 's closest advisor and confidant . And between those two very different people , Reince Priebus is total Republican establishment . 20:05:04 Steve Bannon is the opposite . He 's the one that 's attracting the controversy . The fiery , you know , populist , nationalist figure . So , they both would like Jared Kushner to continue to be the intermediary and moderator between the two of those factions . @!COOPER# Essentially , it 's the makeup of the Trump campaign now in the White House . @!LANGLEY# Correct . Exactly . And they believe they worked together super well as a team and they want to continue it in the White House . Now , Jared Kushner is considering it . He has his lawyers looking at how -- I mean , he 's a billionaire real estate investor himself . He 's married to Ivanka Trump . He has his lawyer look at structures how he would put his real estate business into a blind trust or some other structure , so that he would have no access to its income or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ about whether this will violate anti-nepotism laws -- @!COOPER# Right . @!LANGLEY# -- which were put in place after JFK for making Robert Kennedy his attorney general . Hearing that it would n't apply to White House staff person because it 's not a cabinet secretary , but to eliminate that , Jared Kushner has said he would not even take a penny from the job . He would take no salary . So , that 's still to be determined . He 's gotten so much blowback in the last couple of days about his role our not within the transition that he 's weighing whether he really wants to go into the White House , or just make this an informal advisory role . @!COOPER# Maggie Haberman , what 's the latest reporting -- @!MAGGIE-HABERMAN , -T# We actually reported exactly that over the weekend . That he had his lawyers looking at what role he could play . They were looking at something along the lines of volunteer , because there are strict rules even applying to staff , if it 's family member , about what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ if Kushner has an office or if he uses a phone . That could end up becoming a problem . They were trying to explore whether they could do it . Whether he 's in the White House or not in the White House , he is always going to be incredibly important in running this government in some way or another . And we reported over the weekend how regardless of who had the chief of staff title , Jared Kushner was still in a lot of ways going to be the last stop . He 's who Trump knows best and closest in the triad . @!COOPER# I mean , I talked to a former chief of staff under George W. Bush yesterday , Josh Bolten , who was saying you have to have clear delineations in a staff like that in the White House . It seems like this is being set up as the sort of troika . Have we seen that ? @!HABERMAN# Well , we have seen it in the campaign and we 've seen it in the Trump corporate offices , but we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ extent . I 'd say that there is some analogy . It 's not perfect . Which is just that if you look at the Obama White House , everybody would always say the chief of staff would be the balance of Valarie Jarrett , who is Obama 's senior advisor , and that would sort of limit her role and 17 chiefs of staff later or whatever it was , Valerie Jarrett was still there . So , that you saw some change there . But no , chief of staff manages the staff , does the hiring . It 's very specific . And so , it is not what we have seen in the Trump world . I 've had a couple of Trump transition people say to me , what you know about titles , throw it out . Those do n't mean anything to us. they 're going to find that some of these structures are far more permanent than they realize . @!COOPER# It 's interesting because even Kellyanne Conway during the campaign who , she was campaign director -- @!LANGLEY# Campaign manager , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in a way , she was sort of chief spokesperson , she was on camera far more than any campaign manager . @!LANGLEY# That 's right . She was not out with the candidate really at all , except a time or two . And David Bossie was the one inside actually putting together a lot of the strategy about how to run it . But Kellyanne Conway did what Donald Trump wanted her to do . That was to be on camera . @!COOPER# So , the idea of -- to Maggie 's point about title did n't matter . @!LANGLEY# Yes , exactly . @!COOPER# Jeffrey , I mean , you worked in the White House . What do you think about this sort of -- @!JEFFREY-LORD , -CNN-# I mean , it is a great idea . What this reminds me of exactly is Ronald Reagan 's troika , which was Jim Baker as chief of staff , Ed Meese in a Steve Bannon role , is counselor , and Mike Deaver who was like a son to the Reagans in the Jared Kushner role . Every @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Reagan 's case , somebody who is like a son to them . It 's on friend . All the way back to Wilson and FDR , all the way through the Kennedy administration and on to today with Valerie Jarrett . So , there 's always somebody like that . It 's always good for the president because he has ultimate trust in that person 's loyalty and judgment . And it 's a good thing . I happen too know him and think would be great in the job . @!COOPER# Andre , you take a look back in the George W. Bush administration where you had Karl Rove but you also had chiefs of staff . Not necessarily troika , but at least sort of two people who had the president 's ear . @!ANDRE-BAUER , -CNN-P# this is showing new things to come . Protocol is thrown out the window now . You have a businessman in the White House now who 's not to conform and not going to worry about what the press is saying . 20:10:03 He 's going to make the best @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . And the American people asked for that . So , it 's refreshing . He 's going make it fun to watch politics again for all of us covering it . @!COOPER# For all the talk -- @(LAUGHTER) @!LORD# Ana looks thrilled . @!ANA-NAVARRO , -CNN-P# Are we having fun yet ? @!COOPER# But , Maggie , for all the talk , Donald Trump pushing back on " New York Times " reporting saying , look , things are going incredibly smoothly . Everything is great with the transition . You know , Mike Rogers who left yesterday , who I talked to yesterday said , look , there are clearly some issues . He believes it is going to get worked out . He would n't as far as to say knife fight or anything like that . But he said there 's clearly some issues . @!HABERMAN# I mean , there are clearly some issues . Look , I had heard Wednesday morning that there is going to be a massive change in the transition . I could n't nail it down , but this was basically @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to be the president . They had done very minimal transition work . Christie had done the role that he was allowed to perform but basically Donald Trump did not treat transition particularly seriously . It was n't because he was n't focused on the job . He 's superstitious . He does n't look at this the same way . Once it became clear that there was going to be a change in terms of he was going to be the president , they modulated their approach . I 've heard from lots of people . You know , Jared Kushner and the Chris Christie have a notoriously horrible relationship based on the fact that Christie prosecuted his father . @!COOPER# Is that what it 's based on ? @!HABERMAN# Yes , that is why . And Jared Kushner protested Chris Christie getting that position . That having been said , there are many reason why this happened , as I understand it from several sources . I do n't think it was just one thing . that there were concerns for some people about the bridgegate verdict . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ work that had been done . There were concerns about the presence of lobbyists on the transition team . So , you go down the list and there 's a lot of that , but it is more chaotic than we 're used to seeing in recent transitions. @!COOPER# It also just , Monica , the whole idea of loyalty to Donald Trump , it just time and time , it comes back , it seems , to loyalty . LANGLEY : That is so key to him . And though with Chris Christie , the bridgegate thing put him over the edge . I do n't think it was motivated as much for Jared Kushner because of the -- he had already gotten past that . gotten a lot past the thing with his father , the prosecution of his father , when he came for the first rival to come out for Donald Trump . Look , they have a complicated history no doubt , Jared Kushner and Chris Christie . But once bridgegate happened , that was just a bridge too far , excuse the pun . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ much baggage . He was named vice chairman simply as a face saving measure . He will not have a role in this new administration . @!COOPER# All the lanes are closed off . @!LANGLEY# Exactly . @!NAVARRO# Bridge over troubled water . @!HABERMAN# There 's one other piece they missed and I heard this now the last couple days . Trump himself was very frustrated with the Christie after the " Access Hollywood " tape came out . @!COOPER# He certainly disappeared . @!HABERMAN# Well , Christie made clear privately that he thought he needed Trump to deal with this differently , as did almost every person who he was talking to . When basically every person cancelled Sunday show appearances that Sunday , including incoming chief of staff , Reince Priebus , including Kellyanne Conway , Rudy Giuliani was the only person who went on TV and defended him , and that is something that stayed with Trump . @!COOPER# All right . We got to take a break . We 're going to hear from the rest of our panelists . Much more to talk about in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ next president will actually tweet something . Again , you never know . Barring that , we 'll go global and look at what 's shaping up to be a very different four years , at least . We have some new reporting on the state of the transition as far as the rest of the world is concerned . And later , my conversation with Megyn Kelly about her galvanizing moment during the first debate and how Trump tried to make nice with her before he got not so nice on stage . 20:16:58 COOPER : Well , Hillary Clinton is expected to speak shortly tonight , any minute , in fact . Her first remarks since her concession speech . We 'll bring tm to you when she does . In the meantime , Donald Trump , as you know , takes pride in embracing a whole string of adjectives about himself , starting with un -- unconventional , unpredictable , unprecedented , reveling in uncreating uncertainty , or creating uncertainty . No doubt those characteristics served him well on the campaign trail . But the global stage @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ he 's got some unsettled because Donald Trump has wasted no time in breaking with convention . @!CNN's-Jim-Sciutto-# No question , and some of this substantial protocol . I spoke with a diplomat from a very close U.S. ally today who said in the wake of Trump 's victory , they had to reach out to multiple contacts inside the Trump camp before they can figure out who to speak to , to arrange a call with their head of state . They finally did , it was more than a day after their victory when they were after -- later in the queue than some other not so close allies . And , you know , there 's a little bit of diplomatic pique there maybe , but there 's also genuine confusion about who these major allies and foreign powers need to speak with in the Trump administration . In addition to that , Anderson , the Trump team has still not contacted the State Department for help in these contacts , and that is not just to just get the two leaders on the phone , say @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with the State Department with the president-elect before you have these phone calls to know what the key issues are before you begin those first key conversations . @!COOPER# Does -- I mean , does this have U.S. allies genuinely nervous ? @!SCIUTTO# There 's -- it 's early I would say for them to be genuinely nervous . There is certainly confusion but -- about who to contact in the campaign . But also just based on the candidate 's statements during the campaign , there is genuine substantive confusion about what a Trump foreign policy looks like . You have the first meetings with the Japanese prime minister , that is tomorrow . Japan is going to have the question , did you mean it when you said you want to nuclearize Asia ? That you consider Japan and South Korea , for instance , having nuclear weapons , breaking with decades of U.S. policy ? @!NATO-allies , -partiwants to stand up to Russia . They also want to know , did he mean it when he said the NATO alliance is obsolete because these are countries depending @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ see as real and immediate Russian threat ? So , those are hard questions that these countries and their close allies are going to want to have answered . @!COOPER# Yes . We 're going to take to " GPS 's " Fareed Zachary about this later on , in the next hour . Jim Sciutto , thanks very much . Back with the panel . Maggie , this was some of your reporting about the difficulty some have had in trying to get in contact with Donald Trump . That 's again , something Donald Trump pushed back in " The New York Times " about today , saying essentially he 's talked to plenty of foreign leaders . Not really responding to the idea they 're hard to reach . @!HABERMAN# Right . This is a technique Donald Trump used throughout the campaign and will clearly use throughout the transition and I assume his presidency which is saying something that actually the story did n't actually say . @(CROSSTALK) 20:20:04 HABERMAN : Right . And then get people to argue over , as opposed to what was actually @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ he did n't talk to people but that they had an unconventional time reaching him , such as dialing up Trump Tower cold . " Reuters " confirmed this on their own . There was some report on someone , in Australia , getting Trump 's cell phone from a golfer who knew Trump . I mean , this is not normal protocol . And the concern is not just protocol for protocol sake . It 's that these are not secure lines . It 's what kind of conversations taking place on what phones ? The Clinton campaign spent a lot of time to figure out what the protocol was going to be for how she would handle calls from world leader . They 're not only campaign that has ever done that . Again , this is not just a campaign that was n't expecting to win , but they are still kind of stumbling into how to do this going forward . @!COOPER# Maria , is that what it is ? I mean , obviously , you 're a Democrat not Trump supporter . Is that what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ now find themselves in sort of playing catch up ? Or is there a larger problem ? @!MARIA-CARDONA , -CNN# Well , that 's part of it . And you know , to be completely realistic , given that nobody there , at least , you know , Trump himself has never been in government , we should give him a little bit of time to figure this out . I ca n't believe I 'm saying this . But -- @!COOPER# Do you want to go over to this table ? @(LAUGHTER) @!CARDONA# Hang on . But the concern is that what we are seeing now is n't just sort of disarray because you need some time to figure things out . the bigger problem here is that because he likes to be unconventional , that really does foment uncertainty in the world stage , and with these world leaders . Well , if he 's unconventional about how to get even in touch with him , what is it going to mean for the relationships that he 's going to need to continue to move forward on the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ just quickly about the issue we were talking about earlier , unconventional is one thing . But bringing in your son- in-law and the whole lot of conflict of interest that Trump himself has , that is the biggest concern for the American people and people that are looking at this as like -- and you guys were worried about Hillary Clinton and the conflict of interest , are you kidding me ? Look at what 's before you . We do n't know what 's in his taxes . We do n't know what relationship he has with all of these foreign governments that he now perhaps owes tons of money too , and he 's going in the position to make laws , regulations and implement who knows what kinds of executive decisions that could benefit them . @!COOPER# And I can imagine some Trump supporters here and saying , you know what , maybe a little fear on the part of folks overseas , our allies overseas , or , you know , kind of uncertainty , maybe that 's OK to kind of keep them on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is allies . These are supposedly our friends . So , hopefully , they should n't feel uncertainty or fear . I wish he would spend more time combating Putin , combating ISIS , combating Kim Jong-un than he does combating " The New York Times . " I mean , this is a guy who has been in office now , has been president- elect for seven days and has been tweeting repeatedly about " The New York Times . " Stop being obsessed about a newspaper in the United States . They 're not your enemy . There 's people who are hacking into our electoral system that are our enemy . And you need to start focusing on that . Look , I actually welcome the idea of a son-in-law coming into the White House . I prefer him to a white supremacist , anti-Semite . @!CARDONA# But you 're getting both . @!NAVARRO# you need , no , he 's orthodox Jewish . you need a Trump whisperer. you need a Trump manager . Jared Kushner , and everybody know him , tells me he 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ focused and serious . he 's got his father-in-law 's ear . And if he can advise Trump , restrain Trump , discipline Trump and contain Trump without Trump realizing he 's being restrained , contained and disciplined , that 's a very good thing for America . @!COOPER# Well , also , the reporting is that is part of the role that Steve Bannon played in the campaign , sort of trying to get Donald Trump to not tweet some things and successfully do that . Although , obviously , he brings with him a lot of other things . But Ana raises an interesting point about Donald Trump 's obsession with media coverage and watching television and watching cable news , obviously , reading " New York Times " and reading all the reporting -- most presidents , at least that I can remember in modern times , have not done that . President Obama talked about not really watching on a daily basis , you know , cable news . George W. Bush did n't either . At a certain point , does Donald Trump stop doing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!LORD# Sure , he can . @!COOPER# Really ? Really ? @!NAVARRO# When or without needing medication ? @!CARDONA# Wow @!LORD# The one thing I would say is presidents do -- President Obama was , whether he watched it or not , was obsessed with FOX News . He was obsessed with talk radio . 20:25:00 Bill Clinton was obsessed -- @!COOPER# Well , right , they are critical of it . But they 're not listening to it constantly . @!LANGLEY# They are not responding to it . @!COOPER# I mean , to have the president elect tweeting about the " New York Times , " tweeting about -- @!LORD# Right . But that this is part of his appeal to be perfectly candid . that -- @!COOPER# You do n't see it as a slight character flaw for a president ? A potential danger that your focus -- I mean -- @!LORD# No , no , seriously . @!COOPER# I know a lot of famous people . I do n't know of anybody who watches as much news about themselves and follows , probably has every magazine they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ helped him to do that . it helped him structure his campaign and what he was going to talk about and et cetera. @!LANGLEY# Plus , he was trapped on a plane a lot of the time honestly , you know , when he was going to all these states . He really was trapped on a plane and watching it . @!COOPER# Plenty of candidates are and they are reading . @(CROSSTALK) LANGLEY : This is true . he 's going to become so busy he will have to stop watching quite as much television but it is very important to him -- @!COOPER# -- to be in touch . I get that . @!NAVARRO# He 's got 4,000 appointments to fill . He 's got a chaotic transition is going on . How the hell can he not be that busy now ? @!COOPER# Monica 's point is really interesting and Maggie follow-up on it . He -- I mean , Jeffrey , you mentioned this yesterday . Twitter is a way for him to feel in touch with people . There 's large rallies , which according @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " he wants to continue those . @(CROSSTALK) @!COOPER# Let me finish . It is a way for him to feel in touch with people and watching the shows is as well . @!HABERMAN# It is a way for him to feel that people are hearing from him directly . It 's even just being in touch with people . People felt he was talking to them in this campaign . That 's what Twitter did , that 's what those rallies did . He communicated -- regardless of what people think about the message -- he did communicate very specifically to people . @(CROSSTALK) @!COOPER# Let her finish . @!HABERMAN# I 'm coughing so much . I 'm barely getting through the sentence . @!COOPER# Ay , yi , yi. @!HABERMAN# But it was also a way for him to get around the mainstream media . What he 's not figured out , I was thinking about this last week and I thought about it again when Monica was talking , I do n't think he realizes yet what his days are going to be like . The days @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ days of a candidate , which is basically being on a plane , and going from rally to rally . However many he would do a day , toward the end , it was a lot , it was not always like that . They are trying to impress that your life is about to change dramatically . So , what he 's doing right now does n't necessarily reflect what we will see later . I just think the reality of the job will catch up to him at some point . @!COOPER# You know , it 's interesting , we 're about to hear from Hillary Clinton . This will be her first remarks -- do n't know exactly what she 's going to say . We 're going to bring them to you and monitor them also if she 's not talking in topic . Do you expect her -- I mean , what role do you see her taking on ? CARDONA : That 's a great question , she 's going to continue to be involved in all of the issues that she has cared @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with women , having to do with kids . Perhaps some kind of global work . I 'm sure she will be continuing to work with the Clinton Foundation . Her voice will continue to be heard on a lot of things . @!COOPER# So , you think this foundation continues a pace as it has been . @!CARDONA# Absolutely . That is my thought . @!COOPER# Especially now because there 's no conflict of her -- @!CARDONA# That 's exactly right . And the tremendous work that the Clinton Foundation has been doing from day one in terms of saving lives , is something that should be something that continues from a global perspective . @!COOPER# Ana , for those who oppose Donald Trump , you were a never Trumper , what is the role you see for those people whether they 're Democrats or Republicans , do they -- is there a time where they are waiting to give Donald Trump a chance and see what happens ? Or does the resistance continue throughout ? @!NAVARRO# Both . Look , on the one hand , he 's now @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ fails , we all fail . And the cost of failure is really scary . If he fails on national security , if he fails on detecting a terrorist attack , American lives could be in danger . It is a scary , scary thought . So , we should all be hoping that he succeeds , that he has a good administration , that he can create jobs , that he can stabilize the economy , that he can do good for the country . That being said , if he does n't , if he continues doing things like appointing perceived white supremacists , if he continues not speaking out on the division , the racial attacks that are going on in the streets of America all over the country , then hell yes , we 've got remain vigilant . We 're not going to remain silent just because he 's now president . I want him to be a good president but if he 's not a good president , I have every right like an American , every one of us does , to protest @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to make sure that he is the type of president that we as an American people deserve . @!LANGLEY# Anderson , two things . I 've talked to people at the transition today and they are speech soon that does address the fears , the protests and that kind of thing , because he does need to come out and say I am going to be a president for all people . I understand there are a lot of fears . 20:30:08 COOPER : But he did say the night he won . But you are saying more substantive . @!LANGLEY# Yes , the pressure is building upon him to come out and say something . And I do know , in particular with Jared Kushner , that he is -- but he was one of the ones that helped draft a lot of his speeches during the campaign , that he 's actually working on something that will discuss with his father-in-law that addresses that . A second thing is in addition to what you said about the economy , not just national security but on the economy and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ had IBM CEO Ginni Rometty , a female CEO of an iconic company , send him a letter to say I am willing to help you , make this country stronger . And so it is going to be interesting now to see if he then touches back with the CEOs in the business community that are willing to give him a chance . And I had lunch with a bunch of CEOs yesterday . And they said to me that Jared Kushner was one of the people that gave them hope , because they think he is a very calming influence on Donald Trump . And he is a bright guy . @!CARDONA# If he does do that . If he does do the speech which is something that I mentioned he should do from the get go because even though his speech the night of the election was very magnanimous and very gracious . Five minutes of nice words does not make up for 15 months of insults which is what a lot of these communities of color and women in general have felt his campaign was what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ someone like Steve Bannon just kind of rub salt in the wounds . If he is able to do that and he does it an incredible way , that it 's a very good first step but emphasis on the first step . He has to make sure that he follows-up his words that he wants to be the president of everybody , not just those who brought him to the White House with actual actions . @!LANGLEY# There you see question I ask as if , well will he speak about Steve Bannon and the Alt-right and all that and I got the feeling no that ... @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL# I 'm sure that wo n't happen ... @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL# That one he said ... @(CROSSTALK) @!LORD# What he needs to do and the greatest contribution , one of the really big contributions he can make here , is stop this division of people to do communities of color and this that and the other thing . We 're all Americans here . And the -- as I 've said many times that we have been divided repeatedly , repeatedly into different @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , let me respond to that . Look , those are really pretty words and I appreciate you say them and I actually think you say them genuinely because I know you . But here 's a problem . He unleashed this . He was a dividing factor . He inserted it into the rhetoric . He has been talk about the division and dividing us into the Mexicans and non-Mexicans and immigrants and Muslims for the last 18 months it is now his responsibility to put Humpy-Dumpy back together . @!COOPER# Hillary Clinton is taking the first public remark tonight since conceding the election . She is in Children 's Defense Fund event tonight in Washington . She 's just taken the stage right now . Let 's just listen in , see what her remarks are on . We do n't have really have much guidance or any guidance on what she 's going to be talking about . Let 's just listen in. @!HILLARY-CLINTON- ( D ) , FMR . PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE : Oh thank you . Thank you , thank you . Oh , it is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on behalf of the Children 's Defense Fund . I was listening backstage as Marion went through the 45 years that we have known each other and even reminded me of some things that I have not recalled . Namely that this event was the very first event that my husband and I went to after he was elected president . And so it is especially poignant and meaningful to me to be here again with all of you . And I want to start by congratulating the terrific young people that we are celebrating tonight . You will hear more about each of them because each has faced painful challenges , violence and poverty , abandonment . But they never gave up . They never stopped reaching , never stopped dreaming and yes they have beaten the odds . They call Troy the little poet who could . He 's an artist on the basketball court and a flourishing writer in the classroom and he dreams of becoming a film maker . Bethany lived in one foster home after another . But with the help of a wonderful teacher @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to become a doctor so she can care for others . Carlos , left a difficult childhood in Guatemala , made to it America all by himself . Then he took a second journey making it all the way to college where he is studying to become an engineer . Janet 's secret weapon is her beautiful voice and her musical talent . Music had helped her overcome every obstacle that life has thrown in her path . 20:35:22 And Ujavelle , persevered through domestic violence at home and bullying at school and found her voice producing a student television show at school and now she has set her sights on becoming a the journalist . @!COOPER# We 're going take a quick break , we 're going to keep monitoring Secretary Clinton , bring you any news that she may make tonight , bring that to you . Coming up next , my conversation Megyn Kelly and her new memoir , the Fox News anchor opens up about her controversy with Donald Trump during the campaign and a lot more . @!COOPER# Well throughout their presidential election , journalist @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ anchor Megyn Kelly came under fire after the first Republican debate when she ask Trump about his history of calling women a variety of names . Now the next day Trump hit back hard in an interview with CNN 's Don Lemon . @ ( BEGIN AUDIO CLIP ) 20:40:04 DONALD TRUMP , PRESIDENT-ELECT OF UNITED STATES : You know , you could see there was coming out of her eyes . Blood coming out of her wherever . @ ( END AUDIO CLIP ) @!COOPER# Well for the better part of the next nine months , Trump and his supporters slammed Megyn Kelly on Twitter . She was called bimbo . Donald Trump re-tweeted that and worst she got death threats . Had to hire security detail , in other words she became part of the story in a way no journalist ever wants to be . Now in her new book , " Settle for More " , she 's sharing new details about all of this and more , I spoke with Megyn this afternoon . @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!COOPER# I get to start @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that you asked in the first debate , you had worked on it and your team had worked on it obviously for a long time . Did you know what it was going to set off ? Did you know ... @!MEGYN-KELLY , - FOX NEWS ANCHOR : No. @!COOPER# ... what would follow ? @!KELLY# I do n't think I could have ever imagined what would come after that question . I knew he probably would n't like it , right ? Because Trump had already shown himself to be a little sensitive to , you know , tough questions . @!COOPER# He had already called you up . @!KELLY# We had had a tough exchange on the Monday before that Thursday debate . He was angry about a segment I had done the prior week involving his divorce from Ivana Trump . @!COOPER# All right , allegations that she had made during that divorce . @!KELLY# Right , she was claiming back in the divorce that he had raped her . She recanted those allegations fully and then the " Daily Beast " did a story reviving it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Daily Beast " reporter to give him a hard time about , you know , 30 years old . She recanted . What are you doing . Well , Trump did n't like it getting any air time at all and he called me -- he insisted that I call him the Monday before that Thursday debate and when I did it did not go well . @!COOPER# You said in the book that he threatened you . @!KELLY# He did . So he was very angry that I aired that segment . And , you know , I said look , I did you a favor , you know . I had nobody was even telling you the other side of that , they were just accepting this as the relevant story . He did n't see that way and ultimately I said , look , Mr. Trump , you do n't control the editorial in the " Kelly File " and that was it . He said that 's it . You 're a disgrace . You ought to be ashamed of yourself . And then he said @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and I still may . And that was four days before the presidential debate at which I knew I was going to open with a tough question about women , not about Ivana Trump but about women . So , you know , going in I had some nerves because I had feeling he would n't like it . But I had to do my job . @!COOPER# I want to play that moment just for -- not that every viewer in the world has n't seen it already but let 's just play it . @!KELLY# You called women you do n't like fat pig , dog , slobs and disgusting animals , your Twitter account ... @!TRUMP# Only Rosie O'Donnell. @!KELLY# No it was n't . Your Twitter account ... @!TRUMP# Thank you . @!KELLY# For the record this was well beyond Rosie O'Donnell. @!TRUMP# Yes , I 'm sure . @!KELLY# You once told the contestant on " Celebrity Apprentice " it would be a pretty picture to see her on her knees . @!TRUMP# Honestly Megyn , if you do n't like it I 'm sorry @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I could be probably maybe not be based on the way you have treated me but I would n't do that . @!COOPER# Looking at it now ? What do you think ? @!KELLY# What I thought in the moment which was that was a veiled threat , and I understood why he was suggesting I had n't been nice to him . And , you know , I figured out at the time , maybe he 's going to come after me a bit on Twitter and that will be that . I mean this is in part of the nature of our jobs . Sometimes politicians are unhappy with our coverage and you had to take it . So that 's what I taught was going to happen . You know , he 's beating up on me pretty good in the days after that debate and then it just started to take on a different tone and it started to have just different words and by , you know , the following night he was on with Don Lemon and made those blood comments . And that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ know , I mean it was , I went to the beach to be with my husband and my kids later that night . I saw Don that night , normally I 'm not watching him . I love Don . But I saw the next and we pre taped the " Kelly File " and Trump had insisted that he go on at 9:00 on CNN across for me . You guys let him go on commercial free for 30 minutes and we still beat you . Not you . It was Don . And he -- that 's when he made those comments . So , I got in the car to go to the beach after that , and I was looking through my phone and just the internet lost its mind over those comments and I see politicians tweeting out " I stand with Megyn . " I was like , what the ? You know , the presidential candidates and just things would never be the same again . It was just ... @!COOPER# You had to get security . I mean you had -- @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ had have a security . 20:45:00 KELLY : We had security guards the whole year . I mean the threat level just got so high that it was impossible not to take that seriously . And , you know , is not like I was walking around actively believing that somebody was going to necessarily try something but it was high enough that we had to take it seriously . @!COOPER# But you write about in the book , that a Fox executive actually said somebody to the Trump campaign about , you know , it would not be good for you if Megyn Kelly is killed . @!KELLY# So , Michael Cohen , who is a Trump 's top lawyer and an executive vice president with the Trump Organization had re-tweeted , " lets gut her , " about me . At a time when the threat level was very high which he knew . And Bill Shine , an executive vice president of Fox called him up to say you got to stop this . Like we understand you 're angry but this is , you know , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ around New York really . And what Bill Shine said to Michael Cohen was , let me put it to you in terms you can understand , if Megyn Kelly gets killed it is not going help your candidate . @!COOPER# The fact that an executive at your company though , I mean that 's an actual thought , you know , that 's out there , that 's a real concern is incredibly telling . @!KELLY# Well listen , there is no question that some of the tactics engaged in by those supporting in team Trump were questionable . You know , Michael Cohen , did that . Corey Lewandowski specifically threatened me if I showed up at the second debate hosted by Fox News , which our executive vice president said that to him , " knock him off , you do n't threatened our reporters , she will be there " . And that was the one that Trump skipped . And , you know , it went on from there . I mean even as recently as right before Donald Trump won his online social media @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ happens to her after this election . But ... @!COOPER# You took that as a threat , as a personal threat or as a professional threat . @!KELLY# I 'm going to take that -- it 's Trump 's golf caddie who now runs his online services , right , goes like I do n't -- he 's trying to get my attention But , the point is these are not your normal tactics that we see in a presidential race , unleashed against a journalist who asked a tough question . @!COOPER# I do n't think it would have made any difference but some in reading the book have criticized you for not revealing all of this the conversation you had with Trump before where , you know , he talked about unleashing his beautiful Twitter on you , kind of holding on to that until the book came out . Do you think it would have made any difference ? @!KELLY# No . I mean , do you think if the " Access Hollywood " tape did n't make a difference and the 12 female accusers did n't @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , none of that mattered that my -- you know , he mentioned his beautiful Twitter account was going to be a game changer . You know , my approach in this was I wanted to be honest , so I had revealed that I received some death threats and I had a guard and , you know , that the level was getting a little dangerous , but I did n't want to make it anymore about me . You know , Trump kept trying to make the story about me and the story was about him and ultimately Hillary Clinton , but in the early days him and the other Republicans . I did n't -- I just -- I write in the book in sophomore that , I felt like a human being who had been dropped into a shark tank and there were passers by looking in slightly horrified at what was going on and all I wanted to do last year was get myself out of the shark tank . And it was not going to help to chum up the waters more with -- @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is my reaction to that , I just -- i did n't want to be the story . Even when the he was making the comments , the blood comments the other things , we did n't even cover it on the " Kelly File " . Just did n't even want to watch it . @!COOPER# Journalistically , it 's a difficult position because on one hand these are facts which , you know , might persuade a viewer or at least inform a viewer or it just part of the historical record . The flip side as journalist you do n't want to be the story . You do n't want to be ... @!KELLY# Exactly . And journalistically it was n't a hard call for me , because this is n't like someone came to me and said I want to tell you something that happened between me and Donald Trump . This is me . You know , we 're under no obligation to report our own personal experiences just because we also happen to be journalists . In that regard we 're sort of half @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ want to reveal our personal stories . @ ( END VIDEO CLIP ) @!COOPER# More of my conversation with Megyn Kelly ahead tonight , including this . @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!COOPER# I lost my dad when I was 10 . Your dad died when you were a sophomore in high school and I had realize that I tell you I read the book , b ut I 'm wondering that loss , did it shape the person you are now . Did it change the person you were ? @ ( END VIDEO CLIP ) 20:52:51 COOPER : Well , it has been , to put it mildly quite a year Fox News anchor Megyn Kelly . She 's been a good part of the presidential campaign locked in a feud with Donald Trump after asking about his history of making demeaning comments about women . There was also the earthquake that rock her network Fox News chairman Roger Ailes forced to resign over accusations of sexual harassment . Now in her new memoir settle for more , she 's sharing new details about the unwanted sexual @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ at Fox . Ailes was a former adviser to Trump during the campaign but as Trump was attacking Kelly on Twitter relentlessly . Here 's part two of our conversation . @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!COOPER# Donald Trump , you know , early on the primary he once was talking about how he can be presidential , he can be however he wants . Do you think he is going to chang significantly , he still tweeting today ... @!KELLY# Yeah . @!COOPER# ... you know , just today against the " New York Times . " Do you think that changes -- I mean do you think , do you know -- do you feel like you know what President Trump is going to govern like ? What is he going to be like ? @!KELLY# No . I mean no . I do n't know . I 'm fascinated to find out . I mean a great story to cover . But you know , look . He is 70 years old . I do n't know a lot of 70-year-old men who change from the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . So , he 's probably going to be very much the same although he might try to rein himself in a little but , hopefully with respect to some of his dicier rhetoric , he will be lifted up by the office . And I 'm hoping that the power of it , and , you know , just the majesty of it if you will , will appeal to his better angels . @!COOPER# Just briefly , because we 're almost out of time . The entire Roger Ailes harassment , not only get about towards you but to so many women there . I mean its hard looking from the outside in to imagine that that could have gone on so long from the top down . I mean , I feel like , if that was happening here in this company , it is just a different set-up . I do n't know that the top has that much power that it did under Roger Ailes . I saw something Bill O'Reilly said , you know , he 's promoting a book saying , something about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . It seemed like Roger Ailes controlled the HR . I mean that -- and that 's the situation , you know , many women face . It 's not so easy to just say , I 'll yeah well I 'll just to go , you know , a superior and tell them . 20:55:07 KELLY : Thank you for recognizing that . That 's exactly right . And I lay it out in the book because this is a real problem that many companies and I want people to be put on notice . I 'm hoping CEOs will hear this message and say , you know , what men maybe I set this problem in my own company and I got to provide a safe off ramp for women who feel too scared to report it . They do n't always feel comfortable going to general counsel or the HR . You got to had somebody I would say outside of the company who does n't depend on the CEO for his or her paycheck , to whom the women and it can happen to men , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ News it is very true that Roger Ailes was very much a king of sorts . And this is all laid out in the book and that he founded the company , he co-founded the company and he had loyalists placed throughout the company . And he demanded loyalty . I mean O'Reilly speaks of loyalty . That is the culture that Roger demanded , that that should be placed above all other things and I would submit that is part of what created the problem we had for some time there . And I am very happy that now that 's been addressed , and the actual owners of the company , the Murdochs have come in . And as soon as this was brought to their attention , they got rid of him and have created a new situation over there where they 've made very clear , they want people to be safe and to feel safe . And for what it 's worth , they were ones who said to me you should include this chapter in your book . It 's important . @!COOPER# Just @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ which I lost my dad when I was 10 . Your dad died when you were a sophomore in high school . And I had n't realized that until I read the book . And there 's a quote my mom who always quotes the writer name Mary Gordon , who said , " A fatherless girl thinks all things are possible , nothing is safe . " My mom grew up without a father . You had a father for much of your childhood , but I 'm wondering that loss , did it shape the person you are now ? Did it change the person you were ? @!KELLY# Well , I know , you know , the answer is yes , right ? Because when you lose a parent at a young age , it just creates a void that can never be filled . I mean you can go all over the world covering very dangerous wars . And it is still there . You can stand on top of the news business and it is still there . And I would love to say it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ made me a better person and to some extent that 's true . But I 'd trade it all back to have one more day with him . I feel lucky that I had my dad until I was 15 and his imprint on me was made and is secure . about that now with my own kids who are 7 , 5 and 3 . I worry about mortality , right ? As do you if you have great loss at a young age . @!COOPER# How old was your father when he died ? @!KELLY# He was 45. @!COOPER# Wow . @!KELLY# My age right now . COOPER : That 's -- yeah . So my dad was 50 , I 've always thought I would die by 50. @!KELLY# That 's how I feel . I 'm 45 now . I turn 46 on Friday . So I 've got a few more days . @!COOPER# you 're going to be all right . @!KELLY# But I 've been looking forward to my 46th birthday , I mean for that reason . But about mortality a lot @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , is that no , really , you could die any day . And you ca n't waste one second of your time here . It 's too short to be mired in controversy and acrimony , and sadness and I change my life to settle for more and try to do better for myself . And that 's a gut check moment I continue to do and that I want others to do , to improve their own lives . Because who knows ? @!COOPER# Also , that , you know , you 'd had kind of an argument with your dad and that was really the last , you had this lasting image with him after the argument laying on the couch alone looking at the Christmas tree and it was later that night that he died . That to me , you know , I had to stop reading for a while there . @!KELLY# It was very hard to write . It was one chapter of the book that I ca n't go back and read , because it 's upsetting . But , yeah we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ almost never argued . He never had a harsh word for me . But I was being a bratty teenager who wanted a nice class ring . I wanted a nicer one than we could afford and he told me we could n't . And I kept complaining . And he turned and walked out of the kitchen . And it was the last exchange I ever had with my dad . And I stormed up to my room and there he was sitting on the couch staring at the Christmas tree . And I did n't say anything to him . I just went into my bedroom . And the next thing I knew my sister burst in and said wake up , daddy had a heart attack . And he never revived . And , you know , within three hours we were at the hospital next to his bedside and he was gone . @!COOPER# All right . Megyn Kelly . Megyn thanks very much . @!KELLY# Thanks for having me Anderson , I 'm a fan . @!COOPER# Thanks , me too . @ ( END @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for more . If you 're joining us right now at the top of the hour . Hillary Clinton has just finished talking for the first time since her concession speech last Wednesday about her defeat . Just spoken fun of old and dear friends talking members of the Children 's Defends Fund in Washington , our Joe Johns is there as well he joins us now . Joe ...

@@4171541 @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# Good evening . I 'm Judy Woodruff. @!GWEN-IFILL# And I 'm Gwen Ifill. @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# On the " NewsHour " tonight : the biggest test yet in the Midwest for both Republican and Democratic candidates , as voters in Michigan , along with three other states , decide . @!GWEN-IFILL# Also ahead this Tuesday : Vice President Joe Biden tries to mend relations with Israel , one day after Prime Minister Netanyahu canceled his trip to the U.S. @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# Plus , a look at what Washington politicians could learn from smaller cities , and why communities in the so-called flyover states should n't be so easily dismissed . @!DEBORAH-FALLOWS , - " # When we touched down in some of these small communities , you would think , how can all this be going on here , and we never knew about any of it ? @!GWEN-IFILL# All that and more on tonight 's " PBS NewsHour . " @(BREAK) @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# Four more states are having their say today in the presidential race of 2016 . Front-runners in both parties , Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton , are working to pad their delegate leads , while rivals try to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Michigan is the day 's main attraction , and we will hear from a reporter on the scene after the news summary . @!GWEN-IFILL# In the day 's other news : An American tourist was killed and a dozen Israelis wounded in a fresh wave of Palestinian attacks . The tourist , identified as a Vanderbilt University student , died in Jaffa , where an assailant stabbed seven people , before being killed by police . Another Palestinian shot and wounded several people in Jerusalem . He , too , was killed , along with two others involved in stabbing incidents . We will take a closer look at the Israeli-Palestinian divide later in the program . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# Iran 's hard-line Revolutionary Guard has test-fired another round of ballistic missiles , challenging the United Nations and the United States . Iranian state TV today showed a medium-range missile being launched overnight . It said several others were fired in recent days . U.S. officials said that could violate a U.N . prohibition . @!JOSH-EARNEST , -Whit# There 's at least one specific United Nations Security Council resolution that could apply @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ reviewing the Iranian launch to assess whether it is necessary for this matter to be raised before the United Nations Security Council . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# The U.N . resolution warns against launching anything that can carry a nuclear warhead . In addition , the U.S. announced sanctions earlier this year after Iran launched a long-range missile last fall . @!GWEN-IFILL# South Korea today imposed new penalties on North Korea for recent nuclear and missile tests . The sanctions ban financial dealings with 40 individuals and 30 organizations with suspected links to the North 's weapons program . In Seoul , a top official also announced new rules designed to cut off traffic by sea . @!LEE-SUK-JOON , -Sout# We will strengthen sanctions on shipping related to North Korea . We will entirely ban foreign vessels that are stopped in a North Korean port within 180 days and we will also continue the measures prohibiting the vessels of third countries from sailing the sea route between South and North Korea . @!GWEN-IFILL# In a related development , South Korea 's spy agency accused North Korea of hacking the cell phones of dozens @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Islamist group Al-Shabaab confirms the U.S. bombed one of its camps on Saturday , but it disputes claims that the strike killed 150 fighters . American officials say the coordinated drone and manned aircraft attacks hit a training site 120 miles north of Mogadishu . The Pentagon says it was aimed at preventing a large-scale attack by the militants . @!GWEN-IFILL# The European Union moved closer today to a deal to reverse the exodus of migrants from Turkey . In return , the Turks would get well over $6.5 billion in aid , among other things . Jonathan Rugman of Independent Television News reports from Greece , where growing numbers of migrants are stranded . @!JONATHAN-RUGMAN# There are now around 14,000 people living like this in Idomeni , and yet the Greek authorities are predicting even more will now rush to join them before any deal sealed with Turkey at the end of next week seals them out of Europe as well . Over 700 migrants came ashore on Greek islands this morning alone . These arrived on Lesbos , with many more on the way , adding to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ wonder Turkey 's offer to take them all back comes with strings attached , chiefly , that one Syrian should be granted asylum in Europe for every Syrian returned across this water . @!AHMET-DAVUTOGLU , -T# I want to make it clear , we are demanding fair burden-sharing for Syrian refugees . @!JONATHAN-RUGMAN# Then there are the unwritten demands . At least one person was killed today by rockets fired into Turkey from Syria , possibly by so-called Islamic State . Turkey expects not just sympathy , but support , above all in battling Kurdish militancy along this border . Human rights groups will bridle at that . Where are you from ? @!TRAVELERS# Afghanistan . @!JONATHAN-RUGMAN# And they 're already bridling at the prospect of people like these Afghans we encountered in Lesbos yesterday being forcibly returned , because their legal rights to shelter are so few on the Turkish side . @!VINCENT-COCHETEL , -# An agreement that would be tantamount to a blanket return of any foreigners to a certain country is not consistent with European law , is not consistent with international law . Now , we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ These migrants apparently set to become part of the biggest expulsion of people since Greece and Turkey were at war . @!GWEN-IFILL# More than one million people have flooded into the E.U. since early last year , mainly by way of Turkey . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# Several major corporate sponsors cut or suspended ties today with tennis star Maria Sharapova . The five-time Grand Slam winner admitted Monday that she tested positive for a newly banned drug at the Australian Open . The drug , meldonium , can improve endurance . Sharapova says she 's used it periodically over the past 10 years for various medical problems . @!GWEN-IFILL# And Wall Street gave ground after China announced its exports fell in February by the most in more than six years . The Dow Jones industrial average lost nearly 110 points to close at 16964 . The Nasdaq fell 59 points , and the S&P 500 slipped 22 . Still to come on the " NewsHour " : how Michigan 's election affects the future of the presidential race ; a renewed effort for peace in Israel ; the launch of the new @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Americans to jihad ; and much more . And now to politics . Four states are holding contests today , both parties in Mississippi and Michigan , plus Republican races in Idaho and Hawaii . On the campaign trail , Republican John Kasich was in Michigan , drumming up support for today 's primaries , while others , like Ted Cruz , turned their attention to states voting next week . @!GOV-JOHN-KASICH- ( R# You know the whole country is watching Michigan now . The whole country is. @ ( CHEERING AND APPLAUSE ) @!GOV-JOHN-KASICH# And what they 're wondering , what they 're wondering , is a guy who has labored in obscurity rising in this state ? And can a positive message of hope , of opportunity , of confidence , of innovation , of youthfulness , can somebody with that message finally overcome the bad mood that we seem to have been in ? @!SEN-TED-CRUZ- ( R-TX# To all of you who are voting today in states across the country , who will be voting in a week , to all of the men and women here @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ candidates , I ask you , come join us . We welcome you with open arms . If you do n't want to see Donald Trump as the nominee , and if you do n't want to see Hillary Clinton as the president , which is the inevitable result of Donald Trump being the nominee , come join us . Let us stand together . @!GWEN-IFILL# The top prize for both parties tonight , Michigan . For some GOP candidates there , the fight for first is almost as meaningful as the fight for second place . And for more on that , we 're joined by Kathy Gray , political reporter for The Detroit Free Press . Kathy , thank you for joining us . In a nutshell , why is Michigan so important to these candidates ? @!KATHY-GRAY , -The-De# Well , it propels them into the next states , Ohio , Florida , the big states on October ( sic ) 15 . And all of them are hoping that they get some big numbers here so they have some momentum going into those states . @!GWEN-IFILL# @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the early primary states . How is it going ? How is it rolling through Michigan ? @!KATHY-GRAY# Well , he has been here twice . He had big , big rallies in Michigan , and all the polls show him in the lead . But some of the polls in more recent days have had the race tightening up a little bit . John Kasich seems to be rising a little bit . Ted Cruz is in second place . Marco Rubio seems to be kind of dropping off the -- dropping off the slate . @!GWEN-IFILL# Some of the early exit polls which are coming out tonight suggest that voters in Michigan are just as -- are less angry than voters in , say , Mississippi , and that they are more mainstream perhaps . How does that translate ? Or does that translate ? Does that match up with what you have been seeing ? @!KATHY-GRAY# Well , there is some anger out there , too . There are a lot of people who are either unemployed or underemployed . There 's a lot of wage @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sending has kind of resonated with people here in Michigan . But there are wide swathes of moderate voters , moderate Republican voters and independents in the state as well , and those are the folks who John Kasich is hoping to attract , and he 's been here almost nonstop for the past week . @!GWEN-IFILL# Let 's talk about Ohio Governor John Kasich , who is trying to make a dent in the Rust Belt somewhere . Did he benefit at all from that really raucous debate last week where everybody was throwing mud and he was kind of trying to rise above ? @!KATHY-GRAY# he did . A lot of people that I have talked to , I have been at several of Kasich 's event here 's in Michigan , have said that they appreciated a person who is a little less blustery , a little less fiery . And he seemed to be kind of the grownup on the stage , and people in Michigan who were tuning in very much so to the debate in Detroit appreciated that . @!GWEN-IFILL# One of the things @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a lot of early voters , people who cast their vote some time in the past , came out for Trump , but , in the end , the turn was toward other candidates , even though not enough to overtake the front-runner . How has early voting been in Michigan ? @!KATHY-GRAY# It 's been huge . I just talked with the secretary of state 's office late this afternoon , and the absentee ballots are up by -- it 's going close to 200,000 more than in 2012 . Early voting , we had a poll last week , shows that the early voting is benefiting both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton to a very large degree . So the voter turnout on today is going to be key for the rest of the candidates . @!GWEN-IFILL# You mentioned Hillary Clinton . It allows me to move to the Democrats . There 's been a lot of discussion about the situation in Flint , the poisoned , lead-taunted water in Flint , Michigan . And of course , there was a Democratic debate there recently . How has @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on the Republican side ? @!KATHY-GRAY# It 's really resonated on the Democratic side . Hillary Clinton was the first one in to call -- talk about it . She talked about it first at a debate way back in January . She came to -- she came to Flint in early February . She 's been pounding on it relentlessly for the past couple of months . Bernie Sanders has also been to Flint . He came and did a town hall meeting in Flint . And it is really resonating . It 's kind of a narrative of how inner cities , inner urban cities have been kind of left behind by Republican policies , and so they 're definitely playing big on that . Flint also has a very large African-American population , so both of the candidates have been trying to attract those voters as well . @!GWEN-IFILL# Let me try two numbers on you . This is on the Republican side , delegate -- adding up the delegates at stake . Fifteen percent is one number . Fifty percent is the other . Explain how @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on the Republican side , we have 59 delegates at stake . You have to get at least 15 percent of the vote to get that . So there 's a very real possibility that one of the Republicans wo n't meet that threshold . On the Democratic side , you have to get -- it 's a winner -- it 's a not a winner-take-all . It 's proportional . There 's 130 delegates at stake , another 17 superdelegates . Those 130 are divided up proportionately . And we expect that both Clinton and Sanders will get some delegates out of Michigan . @!GWEN-IFILL# OK . Kathy Gray of The Detroit Free Press , thank you . Long night ahead . @!KATHY-GRAY# Thank you . @!GWEN-IFILL# Get the latest on the election online . Check in with our results page all night . That 's at PBS.org/NewsHour. @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# We return to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict , and tonight begin a series of occasional conversations we 're calling The Long Divide . Vice President Joe Biden was in Israel today , not far from the scene of one stabbing attack @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and Palestinian leaders mired in a deep and violent impasse . Biden is also the latest top American official trying to repair relations between the Obama White House and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu . We launch this series now with New York Times foreign affairs columnist Thomas Friedman . Tom Friedman , welcome back to the program . @!THOMAS-FRIEDMAN , -T# Great to be with you , Judy . Thank you . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# So , you wrote a column saying flatly that the peace process is dead . Why do you believe that ? @!THOMAS-FRIEDMAN# Because it 's dead . It 's actually been dead for a while . I just called it by its real name . It 's clear to me , Judy , that both sides have conspired . This was like " Murder on the Orient Express . " There were so many stab wounds in this body , hard to tell exactly which one was the fatal blow . But you now have near approaching 500,000 Jewish settlers in the West Bank , and depending on where you define the border . Remember , it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ settlers from Gaza . So , imagine if you 're talking about , you know , 400,000 to 500,000 . And on the Palestinian side , you have had some really bad developments . In the last Israeli-Palestinian war , Hamas fired a rocket that landed basically on the outskirts of Israel 's only international airport , basically , or major international airport , Lod . And the U.S. FAA ordered for one day all American flights canceled . That was a message to all Israelis . Imagine if the Palestinians had the West Bank and could close their only airport . And , also , Salam Fayyad or the -- sorry -- the -- Abu Mazen , the Palestinian president , he released -- he fired , basically , Salam Fayyad , the one Palestinian prime minister who said , we need to build our institutions , and if we do what the Zionists did and we build our state institutionally , getting a state will just be a formality . He got fired . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# So , you 're saying there are a few people trying to do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to ? What 's the problem ? @!THOMAS-FRIEDMAN# Yes . There are a lot of people trying to do the right -- wrong thing , and they have been really empowered lately . My criticism of Netanyahu is not that Israel should get out of the West Bank tomorrow . I get it . It 's a dangerous neighborhood . You know , I have always felt , to understand Israel , to write about Israel , you have to keep three thoughts in your head at the same time and their intention . One is that Israel is an amazing place . It 's really built an amazing society in its short history . Second , Israel does some bad stuff in the West Bank . And , third , Israel lives in a really dangerous neighborhood . And you have got to keep all three of those in your head at the same time . My critique of Netanyahu is this . Why would you make a bad situation worse by putting Jews in the middle of Palestinian areas in the West Bank , highly densely populated Palestinian @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , that would have to be ceded to a Palestinian state ? And where is the Israeli creativity ? We see Israeli creativity in cyber , in technology , all of these things . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# Right . @!THOMAS-FRIEDMAN# When was the last time you read a story about Netanyahu where you said , wow , now , that 's really interesting , there 's a really creative idea ? And on the Palestinian side , you have got a fractured Palestinian society , one in Gaza , one in the West Bank . So nobody can actually say yes for the Palestinians anymore in a unified way . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# In the meantime , you have American politicians , many Republican prominent politicians running for president who are praising Benjamin Netanyahu , saying Barack -- President Obama has been -- has made all the wrong moves when it comes to Israel . Is the U.S. a player or not ? There 's a story today in The Wall Street Journal saying that the White House is trying to come up with a U.N . resolution maybe or some other gesture to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that story is a bit of an evergreen . Maybe it 's true now . But it 's always , we 're going to tell them . We 're just -- we 're going to tell them we 're tired of this . We 're going to -- and then it never happens , because a Democrat comes along , like Hillary Clinton , and says , geez , I wish you would n't do that . Now that 's going to affect Jewish voters . What 's going on in the campaign , that 's a gravity-free zone . It has nothing to do with the reality of the Middle East whatsoever . That is people looking for votes and funding . It has nothing to do with the region . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# How much of the problem here , Tom , is due to the fact that the rest Middle East is virtually on fire , overshadowing the Palestinians and the Israelis ? @!THOMAS-FRIEDMAN# There 's no question . If you 're sitting in Israel today , Israel has a real strategic dilemma . It has nonstate actors dressed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on four out of five borders , Sinai , Gaza , Lebanon and Syria . we 're at a stage today where a lot of artificial states , states whose borders are primarily straight lines , they 're actually blowing up all over the world under the pressure of globalization , technology , climate . It 's different things in different places . These states , Judy , they 're like caravan homes in a trailer park . They 're built on slabs of cement with no basement and no foundation . And these big global forces today , they 're like a tornado going through a trailer park . And a lot of them happen to be around Israel . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# If solutions are out there , and the people who have tried to float them just get knocked down , where is an answer going to come from ? You 're saying it waits for the next president . Does it wait even longer ? And where does it ? @!THOMAS-FRIEDMAN# You know , Netanyahu and Abbas can almost see each other from their offices . The idea @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ state to come over , if they had the will , they would have the way . It 's got to start with them . the most constructive thing President Obama could do would -- say , we tried . It 's over . There 's going to be a one-state solution . That 's what would shock the system , not , here 's our plan . But then they just start making it about us . They start picking apart our plan . They say , it 's about you . It 's over . We really wish you well . Sorry it did n't work out , because what happens otherwise is Netanyahu will always say , Kerry 's coming . Kerry -- there 's a plan . Or Abbas will say , do n't worry . The Americans are -- no , no , nobody 's coming . It 's over . It 's yours . You own it . Now you live with it . And that 's the beginning of wisdom . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# But can any American president really do that , given the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of been doing it for the last year . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# But he has n't made that declaration . @!THOMAS-FRIEDMAN# He has n't said that . But he 's basically -- he 's basically told Kerry , you know , I do n't want you messing around there anymore . So , it 's very hard , but , actually , it would be -- you know , friends do n't let friends drive drunk , and we have been letting a lot of people drive drunk . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# Tom Friedman , on that note , we thank you . @!THOMAS-FRIEDMAN# A pleasure , Judy . Thank you . @!GWEN-IFILL# This past Saturday , high school students preparing for college took a brand-new SAT test , with the first major changes in more than a decade . The scores will be part of many college applications , but not all . April Brown reports for our latest Tuesday evening Making the Grade series . It 's part of Public Media 's American Graduate Project . @!PATRICK-BOCK , -SAT-# So , we 're going to do quadratics today . We 're going @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ students like junior Carson Goettlicher of Annandale , Virginia , have set aside extra time preparing for a pre-college ritual , taking the ACT or the SAT test , or both . Carson has been studying with tutor Patrick Bock for the new SAT , the first major changes to the test since 2005. @!CARSON-GOETTLICHER# We took a pretest in the SAT class which was based off the old one . And I did pretty well on that , so I -- then I thought about how I 'm taking the new one , and I 'm like , I 'm going to do terrible now . @!APRIL-BROWN# There are many changes to the new version , including a focus on materials students are likely to find in college and careers . Some test prep professionals believe it now looks more like the ACT , which more students have taken in recent years , than the SAT . Anyone who has taken the old SAT might remember the arcane vocabulary that even the test creators admit engendered prodigious vexation . Those words are now gone , as is the penalty @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ again 1,600 . The essay is now optional . The test designers say the overhaul is meant to keep the SAT relevant . @!JAMES-MONTOYA , -Col# The old test was working , but this is a better test . @!APRIL-BROWN# James Montoya is a senior vice president at the College Board , which oversees the SATs. @!JAMES-MONTOYA# We focus on those skills that are most important , and evidence-based reading and writing is a great example . If we look at mathematics , one of the things that we look at , the importance of algebraic equations . @!APRIL-BROWN# Montoya says the test is also more closely aligned to what students are learning in school . Carson Goettlicher is take the SAT because the colleges she 's applying to require it , but since the 1970s , a growing number of colleges and universities have made their admissions test optional . Bates College , a liberal arts school in Maine , went test-optional in 1984 . And North Carolina 's Wake Forest became one of the first major universities to do so in 2008 . Last year , George Washington @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ largest institutions in the country not requiring SAT or ACT scores during the application process . George Washington vice provost Laurie Coaler says test-optional was part of a plan to help improve diversity because studies have revealed first-generation college-goers , as well as minority and female students , are more likely to apply if they do n't have to provide standardized test scores . @!LAURIE-KOEHLER , -Vi# We did see a more than 28 percent increase in our applications , but what was striking was the numbers of first-generation students , of under-represented multicultural students who submitted applications , nearly 1,100 more in each of those populations . @!APRIL-BROWN# But before the decision was made , Koehler says , G.W. looked at research from Bates and consulted officials at Wake Forest about why standardized test results may not be the best predictor of college success . They found looking at high school work holistically and a student 's grade point average are better indicators. @!LAURIE-KOEHLER# If you have earned C 's in high school , and even if you test really well , you 're probably going to have the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in college . @!ROBERT-SCHAEFFER , -# The changes to the SAT are largely cosmetic . They make it a little bit more consumer-friendly , but they do n't deal with any of the fundamentally flawed characteristics of the test . @!APRIL-BROWN# Robert Schaeffer of the National Center for Fair and Open Testing says there are now more than 850 colleges and universities nationwide on the test-optional bandwagon . @!ROBERT-SCHAEFFER# It remains a weak predictor of how well a student will do in college . It 's biased in many ways , and it 's susceptible to high-priced coaching . @!APRIL-BROWN# The coaching he refers to can cost hundreds or even thousands of dollars an hour . Carson Goettlicher found her SAT tutor Patrick Bock through her school . It 's something Carson 's mother , Debbie , is thankful for . @!DEBBIE-GOETTLICHER# I 'm trying to prepare my kids for their future . And , unfortunately , they have to take this test in order for them to be successful . So , yes , I 'm going to give them every tool I can . We were fortunate that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for us , because it can get quite expensive . @!MAN# The SAT is changing in March 2016 . Which SAT do you want to practice for ? @!APRIL-BROWN# In anticipation of the new SAT , the College Board partnered with Khan Academy , a nonprofit online educational service , to provide free test prep . Founder Sal Khan says it 's a way to level the playing field for those who may not be able to afford extra help . @!SAL-KHAN , -The-Khan# The software in Khan Academy will immediately know where you are strong and where you are weak , so it can really do weak-point training . So , that 's one option . But the number one thing is not to pull an all-nighter the night before the exam . @!APRIL-BROWN# Tutor Patrick Bock and others have pointed out the new SAT comes at a time when the test has been losing market share to competitor ACT . @!PATRICK-BOCK# They can say that test changes are motivated by sort of closer alignment with state standards or sort of more rigorous analytics into the test , but @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , if you 're losing students every single year , you want to make that up . @!APRIL-BROWN# Nevertheless , on Saturday , tens of thousands of high school students around the country woke up early to take the new SAT . @!JACQUEZ-LYKES , -Stu# Honestly , I came in not knowing that it was a different test . @!APRIL-BROWN# Jacquez Lykes is a senior and took the test in Fairfax County , Virginia . Have you taken the SAT before ? @!JACQUEZ-LYKES# Yes . I took it like three weeks ago . @!APRIL-BROWN# What was different on this new SAT vs. the old one you took ? @!JACQUEZ-LYKES# The other version had 10 sections , and it felt like you were in the class for , like , hours or whatnot , and this one only had four , which was , like , a major relief . @!APRIL-BROWN# Junior Kayla Ramsay also took it . Do you feel like you were prepared for this ? @!KAYLA-RAMSAY , -Stud# I do . Like , I did a lot of studying and just recalling stuff from freshman year , sophomore @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ after she finished . @!CARSON-GOETTLICHER# I 'm relieved . it felt like pretty much like any other standardized test , other than the fact that there 's -- this is basically our future . @!APRIL-BROWN# Carson is also taking the ACT next month and is planning to take the new SAT again in May . For the " PBS NewsHour , " I 'm April Brown in Fairfax County , Virginia . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# With all the noise on the campaign trail this year about what 's wrong with America , it caught our eye when journalist James and Deborah Fallows filed a report on places that seem to be getting things right , even across partisan divides . To find out more , I caught up with the Fallows in Greenville , South Carolina . This story is part of our collaboration with " The Atlantic " magazine . For the past three years , husband and wife journalists James and Deborah Fallows have been exploring parts of America sometimes referred to as flyover country , places often ignored by the East and West Coast news media . But instead @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ over and over again . @!DEBORAH-FALLOWS , - " # When we touched down in some of these small communities , you would think , how can all this be going on here , and we never knew about any of it ? @!JAMES-FALLOWS , - " Th# The country is full of people doing things , which you would n't necessarily assume from the tone of political discourse or news coverage . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# In a search for places that have grappled with challenges , economic or political , the Fallows have made extended visits to about 25 cities for the project , including Greenville , South Carolina ; Burlington , Vermont ; Allentown , Pennsylvania ; Duluth , Minnesota ; Sioux Falls , South Dakota ; Redlands , California , and so many more . You found that there were a number of things that these cities have in common that make things work . @!JAMES-FALLOWS# You see across the country , there 's a surprising amount of the good bones of downtown that are still left that people are trying to use . You see , very crucially @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ divisive and so poisonous now , just do n't come into the local discourse . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# Why is having a downtown important ? @!JAMES-FALLOWS# To a surprising degree , just the identity of this is a place where there 's a there there depends on having a downtown with restaurants and with not just a shopping mall . It was amazing to go see how many parts of the country are attracting really ambitious , really well- educated , really first-rate people who think that the best arena for their ambitions and their whole life prospect is someplace where they can do work of the very first tier , but also have some effect on the local community . The falls are a really nice way to link the past and the present . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# A prime example , Greenville , South Carolina . Once known for the textile industry , its mills lined the Reedy River in the heart of the city . Now the mills are long gone or repurposed , but the river remains at the center of the community , lined by hotels and restaurants , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a magnet for tourists and locals alike . The evolution was no accident . @!KNOX-WHITE , -Mayor-# We reinvented the downtown , just as we reinvented the local economy . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# Knox White , mayor of Greenville for more than 20 years , and a chief architect of the city 's redevelopment , says city fathers set out decades ago to plan for the future . @!KNOX-WHITE# In the 1970s , when textiles were still very viable , the leadership in Greenville very intentionally decided that we needed to diversify . They brought in and recruited companies like General Electric , and today GE is a major presence here . And that put us in a really good stead , because , later , the textile industry would collapse . @!DEBORAH-FALLOWS# they 're very self-conscious about what they 're doing in Greenville and also aware that these things are n't going to be decreed from on high . @!NANCY-WHITWORTH , -D# It 's just in part of our DNA of how we operate . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# Remaking Greenville took government and business working together , says Nancy Whitworth , Greenville 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ working together , the city and the county , you see that every day in sort of how we approach dealing with companies that we try to bring into Greenville. @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# An active local government pushing incentives like tax breaks and favorable zoning have made so-called public-private partnerships possible , both in developing the downtown , and in luring major manufacturers to the area , like BMW and Michelin . These companies provide tens of thousands of jobs , and bring an international influence to this small Southern city . @!DANIELLE-VINSON , -F# It is definitely conservative , by and large . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# Danielle Vinson teaches political science at nearby Furman University . @!DANIELLE-VINSON# We have pockets of Democrats in the city limits particularly . But everywhere else is very Republican . And so our senators are Republican . Our -- all of our congressional delegation up here is Republican . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# Vinson says the government 's partnership with business may seem inconsistent with Republican philosophy , but it 's a way to make things work . @!DANIELLE-VINSON# When you start talking about ideology , it 's good in theory @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ level . But when you get to the local city and county level , you have got tangible issues that have to be addressed . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# There 's no question Greenville 's economy is booming . Half-a-dozen cranes dot the skyline , as new hotels , condos and office buildings multiply . But some are asking if the benefits have reached all of Greenville 's residents , about 15 percent of whom are poor . How fast is gentrification happening here ? @!CHANDRA-DILLARD- ( D# It 's happening very rapidly , even in my neighborhood . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# Chandra Dillard is a Democratic state representative from Greenville. @!CHANDRA-DILLARD# I have received letters at my home saying , do you want to sell ? There is pressure against the neighborhood . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# So how is the community dealing with that ? @!CHANDRA-DILLARD# Well , you must be intentional , Judy . We must be intentional about making sure that people are trained , that they 're ready , that there is policy to protect people who currently live in these neighborhoods , so that they will be able to stay there . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this community , in the context of the history of this part of the state ? @!CHANDRA-DILLARD# there is racial harmony in our city . Again , I believe the challenge now is economic disparity that separates us , and not the races . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# The congregation at Greenville 's Redemption Church would seem to confirm that . Sixty percent of its 20,000 members are African-American , the rest mainly white . Most of the whites are Republicans , most of the blacks Democrats . On politics , they disagree fiercely . But each Sunday , they worship as one . The reverend Ron Carpenter is their pastor . @!REV-RON-CARPENTER , # In our world , we call it a culture of honor . There is such a culture of disrespect that prevails in society , through media , through government , through politics , that I tell people that , no matter if you disagree with this person 's politics , whether or not you agree with their position , honor the person . @!JAMES-FALLOWS# It 's easier to treat that person as somebody who has good parts and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and you will try to contain those , where you can come to kind of practical solutions . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# One such solution addresses the education gap that keeps many African-Americans from sharing in the wealth of high-tech jobs in and around Greenville . At the Whittenberg Elementary School of Engineering -- you heard that right , elementary school -- these kids get a head start on math and science . @!DEBORAH-FALLOWS# These were the tiniest little engineers from pre-K through grade five . And they were starting off in technology and engineering infused into their baby curriculum . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# And the South Carolina Governor 's School for the Arts and Humanities , a public boarding school , gives high school students from across the state an opportunity to pursue excellence . Still , much work remains to spread the new opportunities and benefits among all of Greenville 's residents . And much of that work falls to the church . @!REV-RON-CARPENTER# What I do is , I usually try to bring businesses and bring our government officials to the table and say , I ca n't take care of all @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ care issue if we can get the Greenville transit system operating in this community , too . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# In Greenville and in so many other cities the Fallows visited , they found pockets of genuine optimism in a nation that often seems filled with fear and loathing . @!JAMES-FALLOWS# They have a shared story about the way that the city government works to bring in some international corporations , works with local start-ups , works with the diversity of the community there , works with religious organizations , and having some collective sense that it matters to us to make this city attractive , make it inclusive , make it growing , make it strong . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# And did you see anything that could be transplanted to Washington ? @!JAMES-FALLOWS# In contrast to the apparent hopelessness of the national perspective , there is some attempt to grapple with these things locally . we came across almost nothing you could directly say , OK , the Greenville City Council works this way . Why does n't the U.S. Senate work this way too ? But , in the meantime , people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and Central Oregon and all the rest can learn from what each other are doing , and get greater strength from that sense of network . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# And so James and Deborah Fallows continue their journey , in the belief that these places and others like them are the real story of America today , even more than what 's going on in Washington . @!GWEN-IFILL# We will be back to talk with journalist Peter Bergen about his new book , " The United States of Jihad . " But , first , take this moment to hear from your local PBS station . It 's a chance to offer your support , which helps keep programs like ours on the air . @(BREAK) @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# Now the newest addition to the " NewsHour " Bookshelf , a look at Americans inspired by radical jihadism . Margaret Warner has that . @!MARGARET-WARNER# Terrorism expert Peter Bergen has spent two years studying hundreds of radicalized Americans , seeking to understand what drives a minority of U.S. Muslims to wage terror attacks against their fellow citizens . He also takes a hard look @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this danger . The result is his new book , " The United States of Jihad : Investigating America 's Homegrown Terrorists . " It 's being released , along with an HBO documentary based on it , " Homegrown : The Counter-Terror Dilemma . " Peter Bergen , welcome . So , how big a threat is this , this homegrown terrorism ? @!PETER-BERGEN , -Auth# Investigating America 's Homegrown Terrorists " : Well , it 's a persistent low-level threat . We have been in the United States quite lucky ; 45 Americans have been killed by jihadi terrorists in the United States , all by homegrown militants , since 9/11 . Each one of those deaths , of course , is a tragedy , but it 's not a national catastrophe anything on the scale of 9/11 . So , to some degree , the threat has been managed , but it will persist at a low level for a long time . @!MARGARET-WARNER# Was there one thing you found in your reporting that united all these cases , where you have an American Muslim who decides @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the things that 's striking is they 're overwhelmingly Americans . They 're not foreigners coming into this country to do terrorist attacks . They tend to be middle class , average income , similar to the average American . They tend to be as well-educated as the average American . A third are married . A third are kids , average age 29 . These are not the young hotheads of popular imagination . And , in fact , if you look at the San Bernardino case , which , of course , the most lethal terrorist attack in the United States since 9/11 , they were married . They had a child . The guy was earning $70,000 a year . They were basically living the American dream . So , it 's a big puzzle . Why would you then kill your fellow Americans ? And I ca n't say , even after two-and-a-half years ' study , that I can answer that question . I try , but each case is individual . @!MARGARET-WARNER# Yes . So , let 's take a couple of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a young man named Carlos Bledsoe , African- American , from a conservative Christian upbringing , shoots and kills a U.S. soldier at a military recruiting base in Little Rock . It seems so unlikely . @!PETER-BERGEN# He was typical in the sense that he comes from a relatively prosperous family in Memphis . He went to college . He dropped out . He adopted a very fundamentalist form of Islam . He decided to go to Yemen , which is a hotbed of jihadism . He seems to have got radicalized there in prison , came back , and killed an American soldier . He said in court to the judge that , you know , he was guilty , he was sort of objecting to American foreign policy . Now , is that an adequate excuse ? Of course not , because lots of people do n't like American foreign policy . They do n't kill people as a result . @!MARGARET-WARNER# Zachary Chesser. @!PETER-BERGEN# Yes . @!MARGARET-WARNER# I had never heard of him . He starts out -- as a kid , he wants to be a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ convicted of trying to threaten the creators of " South Park . " But he seemed to follow a similar pattern , especially on the isolation . @!PETER-BERGEN# There is a sort of pattern where people adopt these fundamentalist views , and they kind of increasingly seek out like-minded people . They kind of withdraw from society . They often marry somebody who shares exactly their views outside their previous social circle . They -- you know , they basically are part a self-reinforcing echo chamber of people who share their own views , and then some may turn to violence . Now , Zachary Chesser , he was inciting violence in a very real way against the creators of " South Park . " He could have been something very different . He could have been a Silicon Valley kid . He was one of the first people to really use the Internet for jihadist purposes . @!MARGARET-WARNER# That 's right . He became a big English-language jihadist blogger . And ... @!PETER-BERGEN# Right . Yes . If he had n't had a Somali girlfriend and got interested in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!MARGARET-WARNER# This book focuses a lot on homegrown and self- radicalized terrorists . But there are Americans who are actively recruited . @!PETER-BERGEN# Well , luckily , it 's not very big now , but we have had lots of Americans who have gone and become important members of al-Qaida . Think about Anwar al-Awlaki , who was a well-known community leader and mosque leader in Northern Virginia , who went on to become a leader of al- Qaida in Yemen . @!MARGARET-WARNER# Right . @!PETER-BERGEN# There are several examples of people who have taken senior leadership positions in these groups who happen to be American . There was an American at the first meeting of al-Qaida in 1988 who was a person taking notes . He was a guy from Kansas city . So , there have been Americans in al-Qaida or these groups from the beginning . @!MARGARET-WARNER# How effective has U.S. intelligence and law enforcement been in containing , of thwarting this threat ? @!PETER-BERGEN# We have not had any kind of major terrorist attack in the United States since 9/11 . But people get through . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of on the radar at the FBI , the FBI sort of dropped the ball . Carlos Bledsoe , the guy who killed a soldier in Arkansas , he was also on the FBI 's radar . But the FBI , they ca n't keep cases against people open indefinitely . @!MARGARET-WARNER# Just for what they say . @!PETER-BERGEN# Just for what they say . And unless we have a machine that can read people 's souls , we 're not going to know when somebody who is an ultra-fundamentalist becomes a militant who is going to take the law into their own hands . @!MARGARET-WARNER# One of the little-known facts is that FBI and law enforcement and intelligence have concocted more terrorist plots in this country than all the outside organizations like al-Qaida combined . @!PETER-BERGEN# Yes . The FBI has done 30 . Al-Qaida and other associated groups have done 10 . And depending on your perspective , you can say that 's law enforcement overkill. @!MARGARET-WARNER# What 's the evidence on whether these alleged perpetrators were really committed terrorists or on a path to go there ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to , the outside observers . But the FBI is pretty careful to always say , are you really sure you want to go through with this ? And the perpetrator usually says yes . @!MARGARET-WARNER# Well , Peter Bergen , author of " The United States of Jihad , " thank you . @!PETER-BERGEN# Thank you , Margaret . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# And you can find more of our book conversations on our Arts page at PBS.org/NewsHour . Also on the " NewsHour " online : For artist Lisa Friedrich , playing with fire is just a part of the artistic process . Friedrich makes pyrotechnic art by laying gunpowder on paper and setting it aflame to create a unique pattern . We have video of how this fiery process works . And in our weekly jobs column : why loading your resume with key words that you think employers are looking for is a losing strategy for job- seekers . Find out why in our Ask the Headhunter series . All that and more is on our Web site , PBS.org/NewsHour. @!GWEN-IFILL# Pyrotechnic art , I love it . @(LAUGHTER) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Stay with us online for the latest on tonight 's elections . That 's on our results page at PBS.org/NewsHour . I 'm Gwen Ifill. @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# And I 'm Judy Woodruff . Join us online and again here tomorrow evening for full analysis of tonight 's results . For all of us at the " PBS NewsHour , " thank you , and good night .

@@4171641 @!BILL-KURTIS# And here 's your host at the Chase Bank Auditorium in Chicago , Peter Sagal. @!PETER-SAGAL : Thank you , Bill . Thank you so much . The year ... @(APPLAUSE) @!PETER-SAGAL : ... Has hardly begun , but it is never too early to indulge in nostalgia . So we 're going to present to you this week some things we really enjoyed from the last year . @!BILL-KURTIS# Because we thought about doing a show from the beach on Saint Barths , but the - well , the sand kept getting in the microphones . @!PETER-SAGAL : One of the most fun and certainly one of the most tasty interviews we 've done recently was with acclaimed chef and television personality , Jacques Pepin . @!BILL-KURTIS# Peter began by jumping right in on his favorite topic - eating . @ ( SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST ) @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Thank you . Thank you for having me. @!PETER-SAGAL : Oh , it 's such a pleasure . @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Yes . @!PETER-SAGAL : So I have to say that I have been reading your memoir this week , and it is - it 's called " The Apprentice . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I 'm sorry , put you to sleep , right ? @!PETER-SAGAL : No , it was delightful . And I 've even been making the recipes - like , I made the eggs in the style of your mother Jeannette . They were delicious . @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Oh , yeah , yeah . @!PETER-SAGAL : It was awesome . @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Yeah , you liked it ? @!PETER-SAGAL : They were delicious . I would say thank your mother for me , but I 'm sure it 's too late for that . They 're just ... @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Not that late - she only died last year . @!PETER-SAGAL : Really ? @!ROY-BLOUNT , -JR. # Only died last night . @!PETER-SAGAL : OK , well , her eggs were great . Some of the things ... @(LAUGHTER) @!PETER-SAGAL : Now , just to sort of fill in our audience if they do n't know , you grew up during the war in France . @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Yes . @!PETER-SAGAL : Times were tough , and you describe some of the things your mother made for you , including a dish that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ mou . Yes , right , mou. @!PETER-SAGAL : And was that the one with the lung ? @!JACQUES-PEPIN# That 's delicious ( laughter ) . This is the lung of a lamb , usually or calf . So , you know , what you have to do - because when you buy the lung the air has gone out of it . So it kind of shrank - so first , you have to blow - you have to blow into the trachea to expand the lung . @!PETER-SAGAL : Yeah . @!JACQUES-PEPIN# And then you cut it into pieces , and you do it with onion and red wine . It 's really disgusting . @!PETER-SAGAL : Yeah . @(LAUGHTER) @!LUKE-BURBANK# I 'm pretty sure that dish will get you arrested here the in the States , chef . @!ROY-BLOUNT , -JR. # Is that why you call it mou , because when you cut into it , it ... @!JACQUES-PEPIN# It moos ( laughter ) . Yeah , it moos. @!PETER-SAGAL : Now when your - you have a daughter . @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Yes . @!PETER-SAGAL : And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ her , like , oh , I 'm going to cook for you what my mother made for me when I was your age . Here is some lung . @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Yes , I did it . @!PETER-SAGAL : You did ? You made lung for your daughter ? @!JACQUES-PEPIN# But she was 3 years old . At that age , she could not refuse it . @(LAUGHTER) @!PETER-SAGAL : And has she forgiven you now , sir ? @!JACQUES-PEPIN# No , not really . @(LAUGHTER) @!PETER-SAGAL : Your story though is amazing . You were making - you were a professional chef by the age of 17 . And you ended up - I could n't believe this - cooking for Charles de Gaulle , the president of France . @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Actually , from ' 56 to ' 59 , I cooked for three French presidents and the three of them are dead . @!PETER-SAGAL : Yeah . @(LAUGHTER) @!PETER-SAGAL : How much lung did you feed them , chef ? @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Well , until they died . @!PETER-SAGAL : Not your fault though ? You ... @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : So you say - OK , you had just finished cooking for the president of France . And I 'm assuming ... @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Yeah . @!PETER-SAGAL : ... You could 've gone to work at any restaurant in Paris , maybe opened your own . But you decided to go to America . Why ? @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Because America was the golden fleece , you know , the El Dorado . I say I 'll go there for a year or two and learn the language . And I 'm here half a century later , and I still have n't gotten the language right . @(LAUGHTER) @!PETER-SAGAL : It 's better than my French . What was American cuisine cooking like when you came to America , say that was around 1950 or so ? @!JACQUES-PEPIN# 1959 , the end of 1959 , yes . It was only - there was one salad in the supermarket . That was iceberg . @!PETER-SAGAL : Iceberg lettuce , yeah . @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Yeah , there was no lettuce . There was no leaks , no shallots and I remember going to Midtown @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the mushrooms ? They say aisle five , and that was canned mushrooms . They did n't have any fresh mushrooms at the time . So it was quite a different world . @!PETER-SAGAL : And you did n't immediately jump back into the ocean and start swimming back to France . @!NEKO-CASE# Seriously . @!JACQUES-PEPIN# No , the beef was incredible . The beef was incredible and the lime and the lobster . And the girls were beautiful in New York , too . @!PETER-SAGAL : Oh , yeah . @(LAUGHTER) @!PETER-SAGAL : And by the end of the ' 60s though , you were a very well-known chef , is that not right ? @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Well , not really . By the end of the ' 60s , I was working for Howard Johnson . @!PETER-SAGAL : Wait a minute . You worked for Howard Johnson . For people who do n't remember because they 're almost gone , Howard Johnson was this chain restaurant ... @!JACQUES-PEPIN# The fried clams ... @!PETER-SAGAL : Yes . @!JACQUES-PEPIN# ... And the clam chowder - yes , it was terrific . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that I ate I do n't know how much of ? @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Well , I did n't make the recipe . I improved the recipe . @(LAUGHTER) @!JACQUES-PEPIN# It was very good . It was a family restaurant and good price . And they did an incredible Manhattan . And that 's where I learned how to make cocktails . @!PETER-SAGAL : Make cocktails ? @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Yes , right . Yes . And that 's where I learned how to make the proper hamburger as well , so ... @!PETER-SAGAL : Really ? @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Yeah . @!PETER-SAGAL : Can you tell ... @!JACQUES-PEPIN# I learned a lot . @!PETER-SAGAL : Can you tell us , as one of the most acclaimed chefs really in the world , what is the secret to the correct hamburger ? @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Well , mine , I do it with - with brisket - you know , Jewish brisket ... @!PETER-SAGAL : Oh , I know it well . @!JACQUES-PEPIN# ... Big , fat Jewish brisket ... @!PETER-SAGAL : Yeah . @!JACQUES-PEPIN# OK , you do it , OK . So I ground that and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and make it very juicy . And when you put it on the grill , do n't press on it . You take the juice out of it . And I like it with iceberg lettuce and onion and tomato . And I toast my bread , and I rub it with garlic after they are toasted . And I make the best hamburger you ever have in your life . @(LAUGHTER) @!PETER-SAGAL : That sounds pretty awesome . @(APPLAUSE) @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Yes . @(APPLAUSE) @!PETER-SAGAL : When you go into a restaurant , is the restaurant terrified to cook for you ? You 're Jacques Pepin . @!JACQUES-PEPIN# I hope so . @(LAUGHTER) @!JACQUES-PEPIN# No , they are not . They are not , no. @!PETER-SAGAL : If you ever get a restaurant - go to a restaurant where you do n't know the owner and the food is bad , do you send it back ? Do you say something ? Or do you ... @!JACQUES-PEPIN# No , no , the chef come and - you know , and he asked me what do you think ? And I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be better than today . @(LAUGHTER) @!PETER-SAGAL : That 's - that 's very good . @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Yeah , take it the way you want . @!PETER-SAGAL : We actually - we had a question for you . I 'm going to ask it . Let 's assume that you knew the world was about to end - tomorrow , Donald Trump 's inauguration . So this ... @(LAUGHTER) @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Oh , my God . @!PETER-SAGAL : So this is your last meal . @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Right . @!PETER-SAGAL : What would you choose for your last meal ? @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Well , if it 's my last meal , it 's going to be very , very , very , very long . @(LAUGHTER) @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Like , three months or ... @!PETER-SAGAL : Well , chef Jacques Pepin , it is a pleasure to talk to you . We have asked you here to play game we 're calling ... @!BILL-KURTIS# Lift , Support but for the Love of God Please Do n't Separate . @!PETER-SAGAL : You are Jacques Pepin , famous chef . But what do you know about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ - famous undergarment . Jockstraps , we 're going to ask you three questions about ... @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Oh , Jockstraps. @!PETER-SAGAL : Jockstraps , you know what they call them in France - le strap de Jacques ( ph ) . @(LAUGHTER) @!PETER-SAGAL : Get two right ... @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Yeah , yeah . Yeah , yeah . @!PETER-SAGAL : Yeah , he 's got it . Get two of these questions right and you will win our prize for one of our listeners . Bill , who is chef Jacques Pepin playing for ? @!BILL-KURTIS# Marcela Marin of Los Angeles , Calif. @!PETER-SAGAL : All right , here we go , chef , your first question . Now , the jockstrap as we know it was first developed and sold back in 1874 specifically for what purpose ? Was it A - to provide support and comfort for men wearing Turkish pantaloons , which were the rage at that time ... @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Wow . @!PETER-SAGAL : ... B - for racing-horse jockeys , right , to provide protection and stability because it actually was strapped to the saddle , or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " riding on the bumpy cobblestone streets of Boston . @!JACQUES-PEPIN# I would say that it would be the Boston jockey - I 've been to Boston . @!PETER-SAGAL : Right , and the roads are terrible . You 're right , chef . @ ( SOUNDBITE OF BELL ) @!PETER-SAGAL : It was , in fact , the bicycle jockeys . @(APPLAUSE) @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Is that ? @!PETER-SAGAL : Yeah . I mean , apparently , there were enough people riding bicycles in Boston and complaining that this company started making these straps for them . And that is why - this is true - the company that invented the jockstrap and still sells the most of them is called Bike . @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Believe me , I know my jockstraps. @(LAUGHTER) @!PETER-SAGAL : This sort of thing never came up during those years with Julia Child , did it ? @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Never . @!PETER-SAGAL : Next question , chef . Next question - once the jockstrap was invented , competitors decided to improve it . Which of these was invented in the early 20th century ? Was it A- the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ - the opium-infused jockstrap. @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Oh , wow , wow , wow , - I would ... @(LAUGHTER) @!JACQUES-PEPIN# I would go for the opium one . @!PETER-SAGAL : The opium one - that would be fun , but it was , in fact , the electric jockstrap. @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Electric ? @!PETER-SAGAL : Electric , yes . @!JACQUES-PEPIN# That 's not fair to us. @!PETER-SAGAL : Yeah . @(LAUGHTER) @!PETER-SAGAL : I know it comes as a shock , but yes , it was ... @(LAUGHTER) @!PETER-SAGAL : It 's called the Heidelberg Electric Belt . It was supposed to cure insomnia , erectile dysfunction and other problems via electricity through the jock . All right ... @(LAUGHTER) @!LUKE-BURBANK# Insomnia ? @!NEKO-CASE# That is messed up . @!PETER-SAGAL : That is messed up , but no ... @!LUKE-BURBANK# Eventually you 'd pass out from the pain , and that is a cure for insomnia. @!PETER-SAGAL : so . @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Yeah , right . @(LAUGHTER) @!PETER-SAGAL : Last question - now , as you know , chef , progress moves ever forward . And as compression pants have become more popular @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . One inventor recently came up with which of these ? A - the bulletproof jockstrap , B - the Internet-enabled jockstrap or C - the combination gun jockstrap. @!JACQUES-PEPIN# I would say the first one . @!PETER-SAGAL : The bulletproof jockstrap ? @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Yeah , yes . @!PETER-SAGAL : You are correct , chef , that is right . @ ( SOUNDBITE OF BELL , APPLAUSE ) @!PETER-SAGAL : Well , if you think about , you know , your standard body armor has a little - you know , there 's exposure down below . So ... @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Yes . @!PETER-SAGAL : ... This guy has invented a bulletproof jockstrap . And you can see him demonstrate to its use in an incredibly horrifying video . @(LAUGHTER) @!NEKO-CASE# Wow . @!PETER-SAGAL : Bill , how did chef Jacques Pepin do on our quiz ? @!BILL-KURTIS# Two out of 3 , the chef knows what he 's doing . @(APPLAUSE) @!PETER-SAGAL : Jacques Pepin is an award-winning chef and TV host . His new book " Jacques Pepin Heart & Soul In The Kitchen " is out now , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ The Apprentice . " Jacques Pepin , thank you so much for talking with us. @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Thank you . @!PETER-SAGAL : What a pleasure , sir . @!JACQUES-PEPIN# Sure . @!PETER-SAGAL : Thank you , chef , bye-bye . @ ( SOUNDBITE OF SONG , " FOOD FOR THOT " ) @!DR-JOHN# ( Singing ) A little food for thought , food for thought . @!PETER-SAGAL : When we come back , enjoy a tasty snack of Ramen noodles , and we put Chance the Rapper in front of a crowd . We 'll be back in a minute with more WAIT WAIT DO N'T TELL ME from NPR.

@@4171741 @!ANNOUNCER# This is CNN breaking news . @!KEILAR# Breaking news in the presidential race . Hillary Clinton warns voters that Donald Trump is giving racist and paranoid fringe groups a national megaphone . Clinton in Nevada delivering his first public speech in days accusing Trump of stoking hate and resentment . She detailed his links to nationalists and extremist groups , saving some of her harshest attacks for Trump 's new campaign CEO , the former Breitbart News chief Steve Bannon . And tonight Trump is offering his first reaction to Clinton 's speech in a new interview with CNN . He 's refusing to back down from his charge that Clinton is a " bigot , " arguing that she knows her policy will not help minority voters . Earlier , Trump denied that he or his supporters are racist and accuses Clinton of trying to smear them . Speaking in New Hampshire , Trump blasted what he calls Clinton 's lies and deception , calling her e-mail controversy Watergate all over again . Also breaking , U.S. officials say Iran is escalating military tensions with provocative maneuvers against American vessels this week . We 're now learning @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ most dangerous incident prompting the U.S. Navy to fire warning shots . I will talk about the 2016 campaign and allegations of racism with Democratic Congressman Gregory Meeks . Our correspondents , analysts and guests are standing by , as we bring you full coverage of the day 's top stories . First to CNN 's Pamela Brown . She is covering Hillary Clinton 's speech today -- Pamela. @!PAMELA-BROWN , -CNN-# Well , Brianna , on the heels of what has been a rocky week , today , Hillary Clinton warned voters that Donald Trump is not a conservative or a Republican . She says that he is practicing a different kind of politics that 's driving a wedge between Americans . @ ( BEGIN VIDEOTAPE ) @!HILLARY-RODHAM-CLI(D) , PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE : Thank you . @!BROWN-(voice-over)# Hillary Clinton taking direct aim at Donald Trump . @!CLINTON# From the start , Donald Trump has built his campaign on prejudice and paranoia . He 's taking hate groups mainstream and helping a radical fringe take over the Republican Party . @!BROWN# Slamming him for embracing what she says are extremists and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ anti- Semitism. @!CLINTON# The names may have changed . Racists now call themselves racialists . White supremacists now call themselves white nationalists . The paranoid fringe now calls itself alt-right . But the hate burns just as bright . And now Trump is trying to rebrand himself as well . But do n't be fooled . Clinton attempting to draw a stark contrast by portraying herself as someone who wants everyone to have a role in the future . @!CLINTON# Every day , more Americans are standing up and saying , enough is enough , including a lot of Republicans . And I 'm honored to have their support in this campaign . @ ( CHEERING AND APPLAUSE ) @!BROWN# And questioning the line Trump has been using as part of his outreach to African-American and Hispanic voters . What do you have to lose ? @!CLINTON# It really does take a lot of nerve to ask people he 's ignored and mistreated for decades , what do you have to lose ? Because the answer is everything . @ ( CHEERING AND APPLAUSE ) @!BROWN# In New Hampshire today @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ takedown. @!DONALD-TRUMP- ( R ) , PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE : She lies and she smears and she paints decent Americans , you , as racists . She bullies voters who only want a better future and tries to intimidate them out of voting for a change . I 'm for change . @!BROWN# He also accused Clinton of pay-to-play practices during her time as secretary of state . @!TRUMP# What is being uncovered now is one of the most shocking scandals in American political history . It 's Watergate all over again . 18:05:03 @!BROWN# Clinton defended the work of the foundation during an interview with CNN Wednesday night . @!CLINTON# What Trump has said is ridiculous . My work as secretary of state was not influenced by any outside forces . I made policy decisions based on what I thought was right to keep Americans safe and to protect U.S. interests abroad . I know there 's a lot of smoke , and there 's no fire . @!BROWN# And she admitted she erred in using a private e-mail server during her time at the State Department , saying she @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!CLINTON# When I try to explain what happened , it can sound like I 'm trying to excuse what I did . And there are no excuses . I want people to know the decision to have a single e-mail account was mine . I take responsibility for it . I have apologized for it . I would do differently if I could . @ ( END VIDEOTAPE ) @!BROWN# And during her speech , Clinton also mentioned prominent Republicans such as Bob Dole and George W. Bush , saying that they are politicians who practiced inclusiveness , an apparent attempt to draw a stark contrast with Donald trump and reach across the aisle to those Republicans who are still on the fence -- Brianna. @!KEILAR# Pamela Brown , thank you so much . Let 's talk more about Clinton 's new line of attack against Trump . @!CNN-senior-Washingrally in Reno , Nevada , today -- Jeff . @!JEFF-ZELENY , -CNN-S# Brianna , this was a different speech than we have heard Hillary Clinton give before . She 's given a litany of speeches questioning his fitness for office , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ went something farther , deeper than she 's gone , talking about what he truly believes in , and more than that forcing voters , urging them to think about what they believe of race in America . Let 's listen . @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!CLINTON# Of course , there 's always been a paranoid fringe in our politics , a lot of it arising from racial resentment , but it 's never had the nominee of a major party stoking it , encouraging it and giving it a national megaphone , until now . @ ( END VIDEO CLIP ) @!ZELENY# She said that Republicanism has never been like this and conservatism has never been like this . She 's trying to reach out to some of those voters in the middle who do n't like what Donald Trump is saying , some of those Republican voters . But , Brianna , the challenge here , of course , for Hillary Clinton is she 's not a credible messenger necessarily with some of those voters . She has issues of her own on honesty , trustworthiness @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this speech settles in to voters at large . Democrats loved what they heard . But still , those voters in the middle , quite frankly , are dissatisfied with both of their choices in many respects . @!KEILAR# Yes . Are their ears even open to it ? We shall see . Jeff Zeleny in Reno , thank you . Earlier , we got reaction to Hillary Clinton speech from Republican Congressman and Donald Trump supporter Ted Yoho . Now let 's hear from a Democrat . We are joined by Congressman Gregory Meeks of New York . He 's the chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus PAC . And I want to ask you first , Congressman , as -- and thank you so much for joining us . But we heard Donald Trump just a short time ago sitting down with Anderson Cooper . We got a little bit of a preview of this interview . I want to play this for you and then we will discuss it . @!REP-GREGORY-MEEKS-(D) , NEW YORK : OK. @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!ANDERSON-COOPER , -C# You called @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ called her policies bigoted . You directly called her a bigot. @!TRUMP# She is a bigot , because you look at what 's happening to the inner cities , you look at what 's happening to African-Americans and Hispanics in this country , where she talks all the time . She 's talking . Look at the vets , where she said the vets are being treated essentially just fine , that it 's overexaggerated what 's happening to the vets , not so long ago . @!COOPER# But how is she bigoted ? Bigoted is having hatred toward a political group . @!TRUMP# Because she 's selling them down the tubes , because she 's not doing anything for those communities . She talks a good game . But she does n't do anything . @!COOPER# So , she has hatred ? @(CROSSTALK) @!TRUMP# Her policies are bigoted because she knows they 're not going to work . @!COOPER# But you 're saying she 's personally bigoted ? @!TRUMP# Oh , she is . Of course she is. @(CROSSTALK) @!TRUMP# Her policies . Her policies , she comes out @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ does also . But she came out with policies over the years . This is over the years . Long time . She 's totally bigoted . There 's not question about this . @(CROSSTALK) @!COOPER# It does imply that she has antipathy , she has hatred toward , in this case , you 're talking about African-Americans. @(CROSSTALK) @!TRUMP# she 's been extremely , extremely bad for African- Americans . she 's been extremely bad for Hispanics . You look at what 's happened with her policies and the policies of President Obama and others . Look at the poverty . Look at the rise in poverty . Look at the rise in violence . @!COOPER# But hatred is at the core of that or dislike of African- Americans ? @(CROSSTALK) @!TRUMP# Or maybe she 's lazy . @ ( END VIDEO CLIP ) @!KEILAR# What is your reaction to that as you listen , Congressman ? @!MEEKS# Pathetic . Donald Trump is a cheap con man . He conned the Republican Party into the nomination . He 's not going to con African-Americans into thinking he 's for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ itself . When you talk about who is bigoted , he started out even running his campaign by denying the first African-American president , trying to say that he was not an African-American. 18:10:10 I can guarantee you -- I mean , not an American . I can guarantee you , if he was not African-American , he would have never had the birther situation . Guarantee it . It 's because of Barack Obama happened to be African-American . He talked about taking our country back . Back from who ? Well , you have the first African-American president , so he 's saying take it back , claiming that African-Americans now -- because we have this president , we need to take the country back . It 's his word . It 's the code words . He initially tried to say he did not know who David Duke was . He talked about Mexicans , his opening statement , talking about that they are criminals , they 're rapists . He talked about an American citizen who happens to be a jurist , that he could n't @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is not what I 'm saying . And as a result -- this is his words . And as a result , there are many Republicans who do n't want anything to do with him . And that 's why at the Republican Convention , you did n't see many Republicans who are in elected office or positions of responsibility even go to the Republican Convention , because they did not want to be associated with those bigoted remarks that came out of the mouth of Donald Trump . If it looks like a duck , it quacks like a duck , it walks like a duck , it is a duck . And that 's Donald Trump . @!KEILAR# Congressman , he 's been attempting to reach out to African- American voters recently , speaking directly to them , maybe not before them , but certainly to them on camera . And one of the things that he 's saying is , look at certain cities , Baltimore , for instance . And he says Democrats have been in charge of governing these cities , and yet they are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ change . What do you say to that , where there are some cities where Democrats are governing and there are still just tremendous issues ? @!MEEKS# Donald Trump is a con man . Donald Trump has no policies , and not one inch in his soul ... ( CROSSTALK ) @!KEILAR# But what do you say to that point ? @(CROSSTALK) @!MEEKS# I 'm going to get to this point . @!KEILAR# OK. @!MEEKS# Because there are -- I 'm just saying that he 's not the messenger , because , number one , he 's not talking to blacks . That 's why he 's not before any communities of color when he talks . But let me address , there are poor Appalachian communities that are governed by Republicans , and those individuals are still poor . And we have got to figure out how we resolve this together . That 's what Hillary Clinton talks about . We 're better together . We have poverty and crime in pockets in all parts of the United States of America . That 's why one of my colleagues @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ so that we can look at the areas where there 's been abject poverty , so we can fix it . This is something that Hillary Clinton has embraced and she said that she will move forward on . Government moves slow . You 're talking about equity disparity and equity as far as income disparity . Well , look , in the ' 90s , under the Clinton administration , income disparity was becoming closer and closer . It 's the 2000s , not when Democrats were in control , when Republicans were in control with their policies , that we had the 2008 crisis that caused the greatest disparity that we have had in the African-American community in a long period of time . @!KEILAR# But we did see some of the things that happened in the Clinton administration did lead to that . we know that with some of the deregulation . @!MEEKS# Not income disparities . You can talk about some of the things that took place . @!KEILAR# The financial crash , though , is what I 'm talking about . @(CROSSTALK) @!KEILAR# I hear @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ But even the financial crash , it was those who put in place by a Republican administration to oversee it , whether they should -- and what they should have done . So , there 's a lot that we can talk about . @!KEILAR# But I will just say it was Bill Clinton who signed into law the deregulation of those securities that ultimately led to the crash . But I want to ask you about something that we have been hearing people say . They say , look , this is a little bit cynical that she did this today , because she 's been struggling with real questions about the Clinton Foundation , very reasonable concerns that people have about it . And this was her just trying to change the subject . @!MEEKS# No . Listen , to me , when you look at the Clinton Foundation , number one , it 's a five-star foundation . If you talk to any impartial individual that talks about the Clinton Foundation and what it does to save the lives of thousands , hundreds of thousands of people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ like a number of other foundations to follow . The Clinton Foundation is not about the Clintons putting any money individually in their pockets . Donald Trump has only been about putting money in his pockets and his family 's pockets . @(CROSSTALK) @!KEILAR# It 's not the disputing of the good works . Even with acknowledging that the Clinton Foundation has done many good things , the issue is the conflict of interests . OK ? That 's really the issue here . And so there are real questions about that . 18:15:13 @!MEEKS# There 's not been any conflict . Show one policy that ... @(CROSSTALK) @!KEILAR# An appearance of a conflict of interests , which , as you know , in politics is very important . @!MEEKS# You can make up smoke or make up anything that you want to make up . I have heard Donald Trump say that the worst network on television is CNN . It 's garbage . We know that you do good work . I have saw him talking about -- he 's talked about sometimes to ban the CNN camera @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . He put it out there about this network and other networks and newscasters . And he 's putting it out there about Hillary Clinton . It 's the same garbage the same way . And it should be accepted the same way . @!KEILAR# Congressman , I do have to get in a quick break here . I 'm going to have you stand by for me . Congressman Gregory Meeks , thank you so much . We have much more to discuss ahead . 18:20:20 @!KEILAR# We 're back with the breaking news , Donald Trump defending his charge that Hillary Clinton is a bigot in a new CNN interview . He 's been working all day to counter her allegations that he 's making hate groups mainstream . Let 's get more on Trump 's message from CNN 's Phil Mattingly . Hi , Phil . @!PHIL-MATTINGLY , -CN# Yes , hey , Brianna . Donald Trump knew exactly what Hillary Clinton was going to be talking about today and he just so happened to have a speech right before her speech . He used that speech @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ defending his campaign , defending his supporters , more than that , trying to turn everything onto Clinton . @ ( BEGIN VIDEOTAPE ) @!MATTINGLY- ( voice-o# Tonight , Donald Trump attempting to get out in front of Hillary Clinton on race . Just moments before Clinton attacked Trump 's campaign on the issue , Trump attempting to turn the tables . @!TRUMP# She lies and she smears , and she paints decent Americans , you , as racists . She bullies voters who only want a better future and tries to intimidate them out of voting for a change . I 'm for change . She does n't want change . @!MATTINGLY# The GOP nominee also stepping up his outreach to minority voters , hosting a roundtable with black and Latino fellows to the Republican Leadership Institute , this coming after Trump deployed this harsh critique of his opponent overnight . @!TRUMP# Hillary Clinton is a bigot who sees people of color only as votes , not as human beings worthy of a better future . @!MATTINGLY# The comment even appearing to shock this woman sitting behind him . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's also facing questions about a defining piece of his own brand , immigration . Today , Trump pledged a strong immigration policy . @!TRUMP# Very strong on illegal immigration . We have to be . We have no choice . We either have a country or we do n't . We either have borders or we don't. @!MATTINGLY# But , overnight , he appeared to be softening his hard-line stance , one that fueled his rise to the GOP nomination . @!TRUMP# They will pay back taxes . They have to pay taxes . There 's no amnesty as such . There 's no amnesty . But we work with them . Now , OK , but when I look at the rooms and I have this all over , now , everybody agrees we get the bad ones out . @!MATTINGLY# Words that sound a lot like the competitors he vanquished and ridiculed . @!TRUMP# Bush is weak on immigration . Rubio weak on illegal immigration , like weak like a baby . MATTINGLY : In the GOP primary , like Marco Rubio. @!SEN-MARCO-RUBIO- ( R# We 're @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ all their federal funding . And criminal aliens should be immediately deported . @!MATTINGLY# Or Jeb Bush . @!JEB-BUSH-(R) , -FORM# If they pay a fine , if they work , if they do n't receive government assistance , if they learn English , over an extended -- and they get a provisional work permit , over a period of time , they can get legal status . @!MATTINGLY# And appeared a long way from this earlier position on deportation . @!TRUMP# People that have come into our country illegally , they have to go . @!MATTINGLY# But Trump 's advisers insist there 's no change at all . @!KELLYANNE-CONWAY , -# And trying to find a way to explain -- or for Donald Trump to articulate to Americans a very complex issue and how he feels about it . But I assure you nothing has changed in terms of the policies . @!MATTINGLY# Trump 's apparent shift getting called out today by Jeb Bush . @!BUSH# All the things that Donald Trump railed against , he seems to be morphing into . It 's kind of disturbing . @!MATTINGLY# @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Clinton . @!CLINTON# Somebody has told him , the latest people that he 's consulting , how damaging his statements have been , how terrible his deportation plan is. @ ( END VIDEOTAPE ) @!MATTINGLY# And , Brianna , it now appears we have another twist in the Donald Trump immigration policy story . Take a listen to what he told Anderson Cooper just a little bit ago in New Hampshire in his exclusive interview . @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!COOPER# If they have n't committed a crime , is there going to be a path to legalization ? I 'm talking about citizenship . @(CROSSTALK) @!TRUMP# No , there 's not a past -- there 's no path to legalization , unless people leave the country . Well , when they come back in , if they come back in , then they can start paying taxes . COOPER : So , they still have to leave the country ? @!TRUMP# But there 's no path to legalization unless they leave the country and come back . @ ( END VIDEO CLIP ) 18:25:00 @!MATTINGLY# A statement @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Sean Hannity last night -- Brianna. @!KEILAR# Well put . Phil Mattingly outside of Trump Tower , thank you so much . Let 's bring in our political experts to talk about this . Wow . Donald Trump will say all time that your head is going to spin . Truly , this is a time where it is in a way , because this is completely antithetical to what he said yesterday , David . @!DAVID-CHALIAN , -CNN# It is , which is -- we should make clear , he has n't rolled out the immigration policy that he 's going to run on in the fall election yet . So , this is little bit like trying to pin Jell-O to the wall here , because we do n't know where he 's going to land . @!KEILAR# Sure . @!CHALIAN# What we 're seeing is somebody going through a very public searching of trying to alter his policy to get to a place where he thinks he will be able to win over a broader swathe of voters . But it was quite clear to me , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in listening to him this week , especially last night with Sean Hannity , he was very open to the possibility of some -- quote , unquote -- " good ones , " people that have been here for 20 years and have family ties , to be able to stay in the country . Pay back taxes , which he says would eradicate the need to call it amnesty , but ... @!KEILAR# Although many conservatives would disagree with that . @!CHALIAN# Totally . But this is what he was clearly saying , to my ear , last night , that he was opening to that , and then today standing there with Anderson Cooper and saying , no , you have to go back to your country first . That 's now back to where he was in the nomination season . @!ABBY-PHILLIP , - " THE# This is the kind of thing that you would expect the candidate to do six months ago , eight months ago before they get into the race , hammer this stuff out . The problem for him is that he has @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ campaign is dealing with a candidate who has virtually nothing on paper . So , they can make his immigration policy whatever they want it to be . And they going are going to continue to make it about deportations for as long as they possibly can . And by the looks of it , this is n't being hammered out any time soon . So , it could be quite some time . @!KEILAR# OK , but we think we 're going to hear about this next week , right ? @!DAVID-SWERDLICK , - " # Yes , but they want to stall this out and see how it plays out with the public . @!KEILAR# These are all trial balloons , then ; is that what you 're seeing ? @!SWERDLICK# They have got to be trial balloons . And as David was saying , look , earlier this week , Brianna , he walked up as close as he could to the line of saying amnesty without using the word amnesty . But then , in the last couple of days , you see he 's kind @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to his sort of closest and longest- term supporters . Now someone is in his ear saying , look , he 's got to reel it back and say , people are -- may be able to get legalization , but they are going to have to leave the country first . That 's closer to his original position . @!OLIVIA-NUZZI , -THE-# What it looked like earlier this week was that he was learning about immigration in real time , publicly . And he seemed sort of astonished by the facts . And then when that did n't work out so well , when you had people like Ann Coulter coming out to say , well , what is he talking about , this is why we like him -- her book came out . In her book , it said the only thing that would drive Trump supporters away from him would be changing his mind on immigration . So , when that did n't work out , he had sort of a heart attack publicly . @!KEILAR# It would be changing his mind on the thing he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ underpinning of the entire thing . @!KEILAR# Exactly . @!CHALIAN# And he used the word himself . His own word was softening , right , earlier . So , now it does not appear -- I ca n't point to what is the -- quote , unquote -- " softening " that he thought he was referring to if indeed his position now is back to deporting everybody first ? @(CROSSTALK) @!PHILLIP# It 's going to be difficult to stop Trump from wanting to do the thing that got him here . @!KEILAR# Right . Exactly , wanting to do what Trump wants to do . Let Trump be Trump . We will see . OK , you guys , stand by for me . We have much more to discuss and much more from Donald Trump tonight . Right here on CNN , you will be able to see in its entirety his new interview with Anderson Cooper . Check that out 8:00 p.m . Eastern on " A.C. 360 . " And just ahead : Did Hillary Clinton camp 's go too far with a new video tying @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ repulsive . More with our political team after the break . 18:33:29 BRIANNA KEILAR , CNN ANCHOR : And we are back now with our political team and the breaking news . Hillary Clinton trying to tie Donald Trump to white supremacists and extremist groups in a new speech . She 's telling voters that Trump 's real message is " make America hate again " . So , we 're going to talk about that in just a moment . But we 're also going to talk about immigration because we 're learning that Donald Trump appears to maybe be signaling that he 's actually not softening on his immigration stance from something he just told Anderson Cooper . We 're going to hear the full interview tonight at 8:00 p.m . But this is something that he said . No pathway . So , you know , in this case , he 's going kind of back and forth . There does n't really seem to be this cohesive idea of what he 's going to do . Does he run the risk of kind of confusing people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't seem he is decisive ? @!DAVID-SWERDLICK , -T# he 's a touch confused . In the clip that you played before the break , he told Anderson , no path to legalization . That is not the same as path to citizenship , even though the two phrases get interchanged a lot . And it really -- there are some conservatives in Congress , conservatives who have been following this issue where the demarcation line between legalization , letting people stay here , have amnesty and actually a path to citizenship is a very important distinction . @!KEILAR# Meaning you can get out of the country if you 're here undocumented , and there could be a path to citizenship coming back . Is that what you mean ? @!SWERDLICK# Well , I 'm just saying , legalization is being able to live and work here . Citizenship -- @!KEILAR# Without leaving . 18:35:00 SWERDLICK : Right , without leaving or with leaving . Citizenship obviously going all the way through the naturalization process . We normally think of people eventually getting to the point where they can be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @(CROSSTALK) @!DAVID-CHALIAN , -CNN# -- clear at this point , in this interview with Anderson Cooper is that everybody has to leave . That the only way , if I understand him correctly , the only way he sees an opportunity for somebody who is here in an undocumented manner now is to go leave the country , go home to their home country and then come back . We do n't yet have what the process would be to come back and obtain legal status . @!KEILAR# And then , what is the outstanding question then . If you leave , do you get to go to the front of the line ? Do you go to the back of the line ? @!ABBY-PHILLIP , -REPO# Not only that , how are you leaving ? @!KEILAR# That 's a lot of people . Right . @!PHILLIP# Is he going to ask them , force them ? Are they going to leave on their own ? These are unanswered questions and they 're real questions . I mean , he did n't really answer them in the clip that you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ open space for interpretation . I thought the biggest thing that Donald Trump id in that clip was actually soften his demeanor on this issue . When I talk to Republican pollster earlier this week , that 's one of the things they talk about . Voters are on edge about his crassness and the way he 's gone at issues in a very aggressive manner . And the way he talked about immigration , as we just saw , was sort of leaning toward what might be a policy . They 're going to leave in some way . They 're going to come back . They 're going to have some sort of legal status . We do n't know what the details are . But that 's the difference between him saying that and saying Operation Wetback was great thing and we should do that . @!KEILAR# But how do you soften and that 's almost burned into the minds of so many people between build the wall and they got to go . @!OLIVIA-NUZZI , -POLI# It 's an impossible position for him now because so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ entire candidacy on being so harsh on this issue . But you know , the problem is that we 're putting more thought into Trump 's policy right now than he seems to have . And it 's getting very late . He does n't have too much time left . I do n't think he can be out there waffling like this for much longer . KEILAR : What does this mean for -- we 're not too far away from the debate . What does this mean he 's trying to solidify his policies ? How is that going to look when he has to stand there and be authoritative about them and make it seem like this is something he knows forward and backward ? @!SWERDLICK# Yes . I mean , to Abby 's point , he probably will try and soften his demeanor and say things like , you know , we 're going to do this humanely . We 're going to make a distinction between people who have committed crimes and people who are hard working immigrants . But to your point , Olivia @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ quote- unquote , " bring people out of the shadows " . Either you offer them way to become legalized or you round them up . That 's the reality . @!NUZZI# And what that would require , I mean , he has n't gotten to the logistics of that . It would be all hands on deck . We would n't be able to do anything in this country but that until it was complete . @!KEILAR# Can he lose people ? I mean , there are people so committed to him , but if he does appear to be adjusting , do they see that as -- I mean , are they open to him making the case about why he would be retooling a central pillar of his campaign or do they suddenly then say , oh my gosh , this is n't the guy that I thought he was ? @!PHILLIPS# This is real concern for him . I mean , so much of his base is with him because they feel like he 's defying the system . If he starts to look like he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ bit more like his former Republican opponents , there 's real concern that will be a problem for him . And furthermore , the shifts that he can make at this late stage in this game will only do so much to help him and will only do so much to help him with Republicans . So , there are many Republicans who are not comfortable with his position on immigration and they might give him a second look but they might not because this inconsistency is seen as something they can not rely on . So , it 's very unclear how this will work out for them . And , you know , come the debate , Hillary Clinton 's job number one is going to be to remind people over and over again that Trump has said up until this point . @!CHALIAN# But his supporters , his loyalists are as committed as I 've ever seen in politics . There is a cult of personality around him and they buy into wholeheartedly this notion of being defiant of the system that he probably has greater flexibility @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ some massive backlash that can peel them away in big numbers . @!NUZZI# on every other issue but this one , though . it 's an important distinction . I do n't want to overstate how important Ann Coulter is in terms of representing the conservative movement , but she has an entire book about supporting Trump . 18:40:07 And she says , I 'm repeating myself , but she says in it , this is the one issue that his supporters would not be OK with him changing his mind on . And the fact that he 's showing it shows such an arrogance in how loyal his supporters are . @!KEILAR# Yes . Are they loyal to Donald Trump or Ann Coulter ? That 's something to see . @!**25;292;TOOLONG Hillary Clinton a bigot , doubling down on that . Hillary Clinton trying to tie Donald Trump to some of his most extreme supporters . We 'll be back with the panel after this . 18:45:32 KEILAR : And we 're back now with our political team and more on Donald Trump 's shifting stance on immigration , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ heard her detailing in Donald Trump 's words links that he has to the alt-right . She 's trying to paint Donald Trump with the same brush as his most extreme supporters and just overall , it seems it 's not uplifting but this whole cycle today kind of gets boiled down to just name-calling on both sides . @!CHALIAN# Yes , he was calling her a criminal and crooked and she was calling him racist . There was no sort of like America , set your eyes to the horizon and look where I will lead you . @!KEILAR# Look forward . @!CHALIAN# That is sort of missing from this campaign overall today Hillary Clinton 's argument , obviously , was aimed completely now after trying to disqualify him and will continue to do so , but after laying the predicate to disqualify him as having the wrong temperament for the job and not the right person to have the finger on the button , she 's now adding to this argument this slice which is he 's completely outside the mainstream of American politics . So , even @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , listen up , this is something who is outside the mainstream in politics and is embracing language , associating language that he should not be part of somebody seeking the highest office in the land . @!PHILLIP# So , when I talk to some Republican voters just normal people going to the ballot box , a lot of what they say is " I 'm worried that my friends will think I 'm racist because of Trump " . That 's real thing among Republicans who normally vote Republican , who voted for Romney , who voted for McCain . They 're concerned about the perception that Trump has sort of placed on the party . That 's what she was speaking to . She wanted to lay out the ground work , let them understand that they can walk away from that . She did n't actually necessarily ask them to walk toward her . That was notably missing from her speech . She just said walk away -- @!KEILAR# Maybe she realized that might be a bit much to ask for people who have serious -- @!PHILLIP# @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ -- I mean , it works both to her benefit if Republicans stay at home and if they vote for her . @!KEILAR# I want you to look at this ad , because she 's also out with an ad that -- you know , I 'm going to let it speak for itself . Let 's watch . @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP , CLINTON CAMPAIGN ) @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE# The reason a lot of Klan members like Donald Trump is lot of what he believes in , we believe in . Donald Trump will be best for the job . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE# For president ? @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE# Yes . @!UNIDENTIIFED-MALE# I 'm farmer and white nationalist . Support Donald Trump . @!JARED-TAYLOR , -AMER# Sending out all the illegals , building a wall and moratorium on Islamic immigration . That 's very appealing to a lot of ordinary white people . @!DAVID-DUKE , -FORMER# Running against Donald Trump is treason to your heritage . @!JAKE-TAPPER , -CNN-A# Will you unequivocally condemn David Duke and say that you do n't want his vote or that of other white supremacists ? @!DONALD-TRUMP- ( R @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ about white supremacists . So , I do n't know . @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL# Trump named Steve Bannon as his new campaign CEO . Mr. Bannon is best known for his controversial Breitbart News . @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL# A campaign chair that ran a website that has become a field day for the alt-right , which is racist and all sorts of other " ists " . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE# The alt-right , which is the sort of dressed up in suits version of the neo-Nazi and white supremacist movement . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE# A lot of what he believes , we believe in. @ ( END VIDEO CLIP ) @!KEILAR# And to be clear , that 's not an ad . That is a web video playing online . Is this effective ? What do people who see this think ? Does this change who they 're going to vote for ? SWERDLICK : Yes , the video is okay . I 'm not sure that that 's the most effective message . The most effective message against Donald Trump in terms of his views and his own statements , not the other people who he is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ soccer practice . I do n't think he 's thinking about the alt- right or Steve Bannon . Her speech today I thought was , you know , was not a game changer but effective in this sense . She got , like what Abby was saying , she got persuadable voters , Bucks County , Montgomery County , Pennsylvania , I-4 corridor Florida voters on her side a little bit more saying , look , there 's a difference between me and Donald Trump and here it is. @!KEILAR# It seemed like she was building on some other speeches that we have seen her give , where -- you know , normally you watch a candidate and they sort of twist the other candidate 's words . And then you really do have to fact check and you find out it 's half the truth . One of the issues I noticed is she just used his words or paraphrased in a pretty accurate way some of -- characterizing some of the things he said . 18:50:06 I asked a Republican congressman who said that she parsing his words @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ So , like , where was parsing his words so that there is something she 's pointing to that 's not true . And he could n't point it out to me . I mean , that 's a huge problem for Donald Trump . @!NUZZI# It 's a problem , and what 's the bigger problem for Donald Trump and usually I would say it 's unfair to blame a candidate for their supporters , but in Donald Trump 's case , he 's constantly engaging with these people . She mentioned it today during the speech . He 's retweeting white nationalists , white supremacists . He 's making it easy for her to do this . And I disagree . it was an effective video . that the speech was effective , and I thought her tone was very different today . She was quieter . She -- her voice was lower . She sounded genuinely frightened by what she was talking about , and if you 're at home watching that speech , this is not something you care about day to day , and you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ still think that message would get across to you . @!KEILAR# I thought about David what makes a speech like she gave today or that she gave in San Diego about foreign policy different from some of her other ones , and when about her stump speech , sometimes that she 's speaking sometimes in platitudes. she believes what she 's saying , but it 's sort of -- it 's just not quite as anchored to something that she believes , like , in her core . Do you know what I mean ? You get a sense that someone is connecting to what they 're saying and in a speech like today or in San Diego , you get the sense that she feels wholeheartedly every word and it 's not just a platitude. @!CHALIAN# And there was a sobriety to her speech today . I just thought it was -- she was as serious as a heart attack , and she was really trying to raise the stakes for people . Listen , we 're getting to that Labor Day moment , we 're getting to that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Trump or Hillary Clinton speeches in their entirety like we do . They see the coverage of it . They catch a snippet of it . But throughout her , the entire speech today , no matter what clip you 're going to see from her , you 're going to see someone who is trying to raise the stakes for Americans in this election . @!KEILAR# Thank you guys so much . You 've been so generous with your time and an expert panel of political reporters . We do appreciate it so much . Anderson Cooper is going to press Donald Trump on many of these key issues . You 've seen little bits of it , but the interview in its entirety with the Republican presidential nominee is coming up here not too long at 8:00 Eastern tonight . Check that out on " AC360 " . And just ahead , a U.S. Navy vessel fired warning shots at an Iranian patrol boat . U.S. officials say it was harassing the Americans . That follows what the U.S. says was a high-speed intercept of an American destroyer @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ We 're following breaking news . Dangerous maneuvers by Iran threatening U.S. Navy vessels for a second day this week and this time warning shots were fired . Our Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr is here with details . This is pretty alarming , Barbara . What are you learning ? @!BARBARA-STARR , -CNN# Good evening , Brianna . It is . Now , the U.S. Navy forced to fire warning shots at the Iranians amid these rising tensions just one day after an initial high-risk encounter at sea . @ ( BEGIN VIDEOTAPE ) @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE# Appears to be unsafe , unprofessional . STARR ( voice-over ) : All four boats you see here are Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps vessels approaching at high speed and apparently on a collision course with a U.S. Navy destroyer in the Strait of Hormuz . This video shot from the USS Nitze . It warned the Iranians with horns and flares to back off , but at least two of the Iranian boats kept approaching , coming within 300 yards , forcing the Nitze to alter course Tuesday , the Iranian boats finally turning away @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Revolution Guard corps boats harassing and endangering U.S. Navy vessels three times in 24 hours . The most dangerous resulting in the U.S. Navy firing warning shots at the Iranians . @!PETER-COOK , -PENTAG# They did feel compelled ultimately to fire three warning shots . And the reason for that is they had used steps -- they had taken steps already to try and deescalate this situation . @!STARR# It happened at the northern end of the Persian Gulf . An Iranian fast boat like this approached two U.S. Navy patrol craft , the USS Tempest and the USS Squall . U.S. officials say the Squall using its 50-caliber machine guns fired three warning shots into the water at the Iranians . This after the Iranian boat had circled around the U.S. vessels , at one point coming within 200 yards . The U.S. Navy crews had fired warning flares . Eventually , the two sides had a short bridge to bridge conversation , but the warning shots fired when the Iranians still did not back away . The two U.S. Navy boats had been harassed earlier . Then , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ tense incident on the high seas . @!CHRISTOPHER-HARMER# The danger of miscalculation is very high . You do this enough and run the simulation enough times sooner or later somebody is going to make a mistake . @ ( END VIDEOTAPE ) @!STARR# And that is the worry , Brianna . One side or the other will make a mistake , that there will be a miscalculation and some incident will break out that nobody wants to have -- Brianna. @!KEILAR# Yes . There 's no room for error there . All right . Barbara Starr at the Pentagon , thank you so much for that report . And stay with us for more on the presidential race , including Anderson Cooper 's new interview with Donald Trump . That will be at 8:00 Eastern tonight on " AC360 . " I 'm Brianna Keilar . Thank you so much for watching . " ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT " tonight with Jim Sciutto starts right now .

@@4171841 @!JAMIE-YUCCAS# The city 's mayor tells CBS THIS MORNING three suspects are in custody and a fourth suspect is dead . We are now awaiting a news conference in Dallas with the city 's mayor and police chief . We will bring that to you live as it happens in a special report . @!JEFF-GLOR# As we wait for that , former chief Washington correspondent and FACE THE NATION moderator Bob Schieffer , he 's from Texas , grew up there . He started as a reporter there more than half a century ago . Bob , is now a CBS News contributor , he is in Washington . Bob it is -- it is good to see you . I know but we 're still waiting for a lot of information here , Bob . As -- as you know , we 'll go to this report when it happens . But what -- what do you make of what you 've seen so far ? @!BOB-SCHIEFFER- ( CBS# Well , what the mayor is going to say in this news conference is going to be very , very important , because what 's happened here , Jeff @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that we -- we have been talking about . This was not a random act by some deranged person . This was a carefully planned military-style operation . This was a classic ambush where the ambushers put their shooters on the high ground , surrounded a certain place and then let their prey walk into their line of fire . They were also very good shots . These were people that knew how to use these weapons . We know that by the -- by the accuracy , by the number of police officers that were shot . They were , obviously , shooting at police . They were not shooting at the protesters . And they were successful , obviously . Twelve people were shot , five police officers are dead . The question now is who are these people ? Is this some kind of organized group ? Could it be terrorists ? The Dallas mayor has said already this morning that he is not ruling out anything as to what the motive is or how these -- who these people are . So as we begin to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of what their motivation was . This may be tied to some of the police shootings we have been seeing around the country . It may be something entirely different . Those are the things that we -- we will hope to find out more about when the Dallas officials hold this news conference . @!JAMIE-YUCCAS# Yeah , we 've been going on hours now . Still do n't have a ton of information , Bob . But I -- I want to ask you , because you provide such great perspective , covering so many events over the last sixty years -- the civil rights movement , JFK 's assassination , Vietnam . Can you put into context the type of divisiveness we 're seeing in this country and the rhetoric we 're seeing ? @!BOB-SCHIEFFER# Well , one thing that we overlook , Jamie , is our culture is changing . I do n't think there 's any question about that . We are becoming a less patient society . We are becoming a more demanding society . For want of a better word , we are becoming @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ road rage , in the way we treat one another . There 's just almost people -- nobody is satisfied with anything now . People are dissatisfied , they are frustrated , and -- and they act out on these things . And when you put those who are deranged into the mix , and they have access to these very powerful weapons of war , it just makes the stakes even higher . There 's no excuse for the -- some of the police shootings that we -- we have been seeing . Police are shooting first and asking questions later . But on the other hand , you have to remember that the police are scared too of these weapons . @!JAMIE-YUCCAS# Right . @!BOB-SCHIEFFER# That is why they are on such a hair trigger now . It 's going to take great training and we 're going to have to have more of it for our police departments around the country . They are running thing . And Scott Pelley talked about this earlier . The Dallas Police Department is a very good police department . They @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ community policing . The Mayor Mike Rawlings , I know him personally . He -- he is a very upstanding guy . He is very forward thinking . He enjoys very bipartisan support from both Republicans and Democrats in Dallas . It is somewhat ironic that this would happen in , of all places Dallas , where their police department has done such a good job . But , again , I go back to this . We do not yet know what the motivation of these shooters is . This may be something totally unrelated . Probably not , but it could be something totally unrelating -- unrelated to some of these police shootings that we have been seeing across the country . This might be the work of terrorists . We 're going to find out eventually , but right now , we simply do n't know . @!KRISTINE-JOHNSON# Until we do find out , Bob , the fact is that the anger in this country really does seem to be at a tipping point and that is a very , very scary feeling , I 'm sure @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ morning to this news . Based on your experience , what do lawmakers need to do to finally turn this corner ? @!BOB-SCHIEFFER# Well , nobody knows the answer to this because there are so many things that this is so complex . But you 're exactly right . We wake up each morning wondering what could happen today that is worse than what happened yesterday . I 'm now told that we are going now . The mayor is coming out . We are going now to that special report . Let 's go directly there . @!SCOTT-PELLEY# This is a CBS NEWS SPECIAL REPORT . I 'm Scott Pelley in Dallas where the mayor of Dallas and the police chief are holding a news conference . Let 's listen in. @!MIKE-RAWLINGS# -- determination to make our city safe and to arrest anybody that did us harm . I also want to thank the county , Judge Jenkins . I want to thank the FBI . I want to thank the governor , lieutenant governor flew in last night . The President called me from Poland . And all @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ us . And I want to say from our -- from our -- our heart we feel that . And so , thank you . I am now going to tell you some not good news for you reporters . And that is we 've got a criminal investigation going on . And our number one job is to make sure the citizens of Dallas are safe , so we 're not going to tell you anything about the suspects and we 're not going to answer any questions on that . We will , when it 's the right time . Now is not the right time . But a lot has happened in the last five or six , seven hours since we talked . it was early in the morning . And I want Chief Brown to -- to give you an update on that . I 'm proud of him . He has been working so hard these last few hours . We 've been with families and we 've been trying to make sure that the city is safe this morning . And I believe @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you , Mayor . We 're hurting . Our profession is hurting . Dallas officers are hurting . We are heartbroken . There are no words to describe the atrocity that occurred to our city . All I know is that this , this must stop , this divisiveness between our police and our citizens . To update you on what 's transpired since we last spoke , let me walk through the standoff that had occurred , that was occurring at El Centro on the second floor of the college there in downtown Dallas . We cornered one suspect and we tried to negotiate for several hours . Negotiations broke down . We had an exchange of gunfire with the suspect . We saw no other option , but to use our bomb -- bomb robot and place a device on its extension for it to detonate where the suspect was . Other options would have exposed our officers to great danger . The suspect is deceased , as a result of detonating the bomb . The reporting that the suspect killed himself is not accurate . We have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the bomb . Our hostage negotiator did an exceptional job getting this suspect to talk before he died during the hours of negotiating that eventually broke down . And I want to share with you some of the comments from this suspect . The suspect said he was upset about Black Lives Matter . He said he was upset about the recent police shootings . The suspect said he was upset at white people . The suspect stated he wanted to kill white people , especially white officers . The suspect stated he will eventually -- that we will eventually find the IEDs . The suspect stated he was not affiliated with any groups and he stated that he did this alone . The suspect said other things that are part of this investigation so that we can make sure that everyone associated with this tragic event is brought to justice . So , as the mayor said , we wo n't expand on any further on what other suspects we have interviewed or looked at their status until we get further into this investigation and get closer to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ But let me just say just some closing comments about Dallas police officers and DART police officers , some of the bravest men and women you 'd ever want to be associated with . You see video footage after video footage of them running toward gunfire from an elevated position with no chance to protect themselves , and to put themselves in harm 's way to make sure citizens can get to a place of security . So please join me in applauding these brave men and women who do this job under great scrutiny , under great vulnerability who literally risk their lives to protect our democracy . We do n't feel much support most days . Let 's not make today most days . Please , we need your support to be able to protect you from men like these who carried out this tragic , tragic event . Pray for these families . I spoke with the families of the deceased and the injured . They are not having a good time trying to deal , absorb this , trying to understand why . And they need @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ us comfort the grieving officers ' families . And I 'll trust that soon because we 're working very diligently and processing the crime scene finding to find evidence to bring any other suspects to justice that were a part of this . But , please , pray for our strength through this trying time . Thank you . @!MIKE-RAWLINGS# I want to add that there are public safety officials that protect our cities and our institutions all across America every day that are n't police officers . And we lost one of those last night . A DART officer was one of the victims . And I want to just take a moment and say that professionalism of the DART organization was great . And I appreciate better school police officers , campus college police officers standing shoulder to shoulder with our police officers . And that 's the way we work . Chief Brown told the victims ' families last night and the police officers that he was a man of faith . And I am a man of faith , too . And that we need prayers @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ twelve o'clock at Thanks-Giving Square , a leadership group of inter faith ministers will be lead us -- leading us in that prayer . I would ask that if you 're at your home or at your office or at your school to join us today at noon and that spirit of prayer . To bring our city together and our country together to heal wounds , not create them . Thank you . Any -- any questions that were not off limit ? Yeah . @!WOMAN-#1# ( INDISTINCT ) . @!MIKE-RAWLINGS# Yeah . @!DAVID-BROWN# The injured officers have -- most of them have been released . There are some that will need follow up . I 'm not going to go into detail of -- of what types of injuries . Their families are being very private for obvious reasons right now . But , again -- excuse me , what 's the question ? I 'm sorry . @!MIKE-RAWLINGS# Yeah , are they critical ? @!WOMAN-#1# ( INDISTINCT ) critical ? Are they doing ( INDISTINCT ) ? @!DAVID-BROWN# Yes , they are doing better . Some have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they 're still needing more treatment but they 're being very private about any further details about their health . @!MAN-#1# ( INDISTINCT ) . Can you speak of that and the fact that something like this ( INDISTINCT ) . @!DAVID-BROWN# So we have to be right a hundred percent of the time in the way we police this city . Suspects like this have to be right once , they do n't have to work very hard to do cowardly acts like this , to snipe at our officers from elevated positions and to ambush them . From secreted positions , around corners . All that hard work is not for naught . This city has shown great support for this police department . The mayor and council and city manager 's office have supported this department and these officers and we expect that to continue . And -- and this community , I 'm born and raised here . Dallas is a great city . Our officers will continue to put themselves in harm 's way to protect these great citizens . So , it 's worthwhile @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for -- for -- if anybody has n't heard us say this . This police department trained in de-escalsh -- escalation far before cities across America did it . We 're one of the premier community policing cities in the country . And this year we have the fewest police officer-related shootings than any large city in America . So , we are working hard to improve and there 's always room for improvement . But we are best in class , we feel . @!MAN-#2# ( INDISTINCT ) . But the people in Dallas watching at home right now ( INDISTINCT ) . @!DAVID-BROWN# No , I 'm not going to be satisfied until we turn over every stone . We 've got some level that this one suspect did do some of the shooting , but we 're not satisfied that we 've exhausted every lead . And we 're not going to be satisfied until every lead is exhausted . So if there 's someone out there that was associated with this , we will find you . And we will prosecute you and we will bring @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is it total four suspects ? @!DAVID-BROWN# We 're not counting or expanding on who or how many . We 're -- we 're going to keep these suspects guessing . @!WOMAN-#2# Chief , can you talk about the -- I know you 're first focused right now in ( INDISTINCT ) , I heard your first focus right now ( INDISTINCT ) @!MIKE-RAWLINGS# Well , I -- I 'm going to let Chief Brown make any strategic decisions , but it 's important for citizens to realize that we want to give everybody their freedom of speech . We have been through several protests in the last five or six years . And they 've all gone in a safe manner . But the chief makes decisions at times that people could be critical of , de-escalated too much . You put too much body armor on . If we 're all being critical of those things , just think about today . This is what you 're risking , if you do n't do it right . And , so , from -- from a policy standpoint , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ peacefully and these were peaceful protests until this happened . But we also have to believe in keeping our police officers safe . And I know I 'm going to redouble my efforts on that . @!DAVID-BROWN# Again , I just want to expand on the mayor 's comments . The police officers is our guardians of this great democracy , the freedom to protest , the freedom of speech and the freedom for expression . All freedoms we fight for with our lives . It 's what -- it 's what makes us who we are as Americans . And so we risk our lives for those rights . And , so , we wo n't militarize our policing standards , but we will do it in a much safer way every time , like -- like we chose to do it this time . We had an adequate amount of officers at this scene . And we were blocking traffic and doing all the things to protect people 's right to protest and -- and their free speech . We are not going to let a coward who @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not going to do it . Our city , our country is better than that . @!WOMAN-#3# Can you say at all whether this is someone who was having some mental stability problems and just looking for an opening to really act or is this something more organized . Can you talk about that ? @!DAVID-BROWN# All of those questions would just be speculation to answer . We ca n't get into the head of a person that would do something like this . We negotiated with this person . They seemed lucid during the negotiation . He wanted to kill officers . And he expressed killing white people . He expressed killing white officers . He expressed anger for Black Lives Matter . None of that makes sense , none of that is a reason or a legitimate reason to do harm to anyone . So the rest of it would just be speculating on what his motivations were . We just know what he said -- that 's what he said to our negotiators . @!MIKE-RAWLINGS# Hey , guys , thank you . We still have a lot @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we 're going to take off . @!SCOTT-PELLEY# A news conference in Dallas with Mayor Mike Rawlings and the Police Chief David Brown . A number of important questions have been answered . The suspect was killed when the police put a bomb on a robot and drove the robot into the area where the suspect was holed up and detonated their bomb . The suspect spoke to the police for several hours , talked to a hostage negotiator for the police department and said that he was angry about the deaths of African-Americans at the hands of white police officers across the country . He was angry on behalf of the Black Lives Matter protest movement , and that he wanted to kill white people and he wanted to kill white police officers , in particular . Those were the details coming out of the Dallas news conference this morning . Our coverage will continue throughout the day on our streaming news service , CBSN and we 'll be right here for you on the CBS EVENING NEWS tonight . Until then , I 'm Scott Pelley , CBS @ @ @ @ @

@@4171941 @!NATALIE-MORALES# It 's become a tradition around here . Colonel Larry Lang is its and commander and conductor . Colonel Lang , good morning . @!COLONEL-LARRY-LANG# We 're so glad to be here again . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Thank you so much you guys . You all do such a great job . We ca n't -- we ca n't say enough about how much we appreciate you all . But this is your seventy-fifth anniversary as well , right ? @!COLONEL-LARRY-LANG# It is. @!NATALIE-MORALES# So it 's a big one . This Fourth is extra special for you . @!COLONEL-LARRY-LANG# We 've had an extraordinary year . And we 're always pleased to be with you guys representing all of those who are serving around the globe protecting the freedoms that we 're enjoying today . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Colonel , it 's always an honor to have you here . We 'll let you take it away . @!COLONEL-LARRY-LANG# Glad to see you guys again . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Thank you . Thank you so much . @!COLONEL-LARRY-LANG# Thank you . @ ( United States Air Force Ceremonial Brass Band performing live ) @!NATALIE-MORALES# United States Air Force Ceremonial Brass Band , thank @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ more , coming up after your local news . But first , we play us out for one more song . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Let 's do it . @ ( U. S. Air Force Ceremonial Brass Band performing live ) @(ANNOUNCEMENTS) @!WILLIE-GEIST# This morning on TODAY 's Take , Ghostbusters about to hit theaters so mark your calendars for a month of must-see entertainment . Then a surprise reunion for two military families that you wo n't want to miss . Plus , the ultimate stuffed burger for your July 4th cookout . All that and more , coming up now . @!ANNOUNCER# From NBC News , this is TODAY 's Take with Al Roker , Natalie Morales , Willie Geist and Tamron Hall , live from Studio 1A in Rockefeller Plaza . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Welcome to TODAY on a Monday morning . A beautiful crowd and a beautiful day outside on our plaza for the Fourth of July , it 's 2016 . I 'm Willie along with Natalie and Dylan . Al and Tamron have the morning off . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Good jam . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Dylan , I like your morning @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ just makes me want to like -- @!WILLIE-GEIST# Yes . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Speaking of Tom Petty . @!DYLAN-DREYER# This is the only way I can dance but -- @!WILLIE-GEIST# That 's good . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Yeah . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yeah . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Looks like an eighties kind of -- @!DYLAN-DREYER# Right , I know . @!WILLIE-GEIST# -- Molly Ringwald. @!DYLAN-DREYER# That 's all I can do . @!NATALIE-MORALES# You mentioned Tom Petty in the last hour . @!DYLAN-DREYER# I know . @!NATALIE-MORALES# So he 's on your mind , right ? @!DYLAN-DREYER# On my mind . Yes . @!WILLIE-GEIST# It was on the brain . I hate to say , this also reminds me a little bit of " Silence of the Lambs . " Not to bring it down a little bit but -- @!DYLAN-DREYER# Oh . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Wait , really ? What part ? @!WILLIE-GEIST# It 's in the movie . @!NATALIE-MORALES# I forget . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Yeah . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Oh . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Yeah . Sorry . I took it to a bad place . @!NATALIE-MORALES# I do n't watch it in a long time . @!DYLAN-DREYER# It does n't remind me @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a good -- @!DYLAN-DREYER# But thanks for going there . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Yeah . My pleasure . Hey , let 's elevate this , shall we ? @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yes . @!WILLIE-GEIST# As we honor the men and women that serve our country today , we want to take you to Fenway Park where two military families got a big surprise as they were throwing out the first pitch . This was on Friday . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Cool . @ ( Excerpt from video ) @!NATALIE-MORALES# Oh , my gosh . @!WILLIE-GEIST# I could watch that all day . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Oh , my God . @!DYLAN-DREYER# All day . @!NATALIE-MORALES# I do n't know how they even pitched after that honestly . That was amazing . @!WILLIE-GEIST# That was Chief Warrant Officer 3 Jonathan Blaze , Corporal Philip West . They just returned from active duty , reunited with their family on the field at Fenway Park . @!DYLAN-DREYER# At Fenway Park . @!NATALIE-MORALES# What a surprise for the families ? @!WILLIE-GEIST# How cool is that ? @!NATALIE-MORALES# Oh , my Gosh . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Awesome . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Amazing . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Love those . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . How did you get it out ? @!NATALIE-MORALES# I do n't even know how you do that . @!DYLAN-DREYER# That was -- that was nice arcade . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Impressive . @!NATALIE-MORALES# They look like they 're in good form , too . All right . Something else to get excited about . We are counting down -- down to thirty- two days to the Rio Olympics -- @!DYLAN-DREYER# Wow . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Jeez . @!NATALIE-MORALES# -- the opening ceremony . Now we are finding out sort of the choreography , the theme song . All of that 's going into it . Now , this is the theme song that was just released . Here it is. @ ( Excerpt from Rio 2016 Theme Song ) @!NATALIE-MORALES# I love it . @!WILLIE-GEIST# I like it . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Do you think like -- @ ( Cross talking ) @!WILLIE-GEIST# Tell us about it . Yeah . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Like ( speaking foreign language ) that life is not a game . It 's not a joke . And it 's talking about conquest and conquering . The name of the song is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " and it 's performed by samba star Thiaguinho and featuring rapper Projota. it 's kind of catchy. @!DYLAN-DREYER# Wow . @!NATALIE-MORALES# it all -- @!DYLAN-DREYER# See all those things -- @!WILLIE-GEIST# Yeah , it 's good . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yeah . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Let 's just rerack that . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yeah . @!WILLIE-GEIST# That was amazing . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Alma e Coraao , that 's all you need to know . So hard . @!DYLAN-DREYER# I like it 's catchy. @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yeah . @!WILLIE-GEIST# It 's a good song . I like those international songs . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yes . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Remember , Shakira did the World Cup song . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Mm-Hm. @!WILLIE-GEIST# And that kind of caught on . These are good -- these are good songs . @!NATALIE-MORALES# it 's -- it 's good that it sort of builds the atmosphere but it 's also introducing -- I mean it 's not just samba . Now they 're bringing in a little rap too it also @!WILLIE-GEIST# Right . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Right . Yeah . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Right . @!NATALIE-MORALES# It 's cool . @!DYLAN-DREYER# And it gets you excited for where the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ You know , it kind of brings it all together . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Thirty-two days . All right . @!WILLIE-GEIST# All right , wow . Start learning Portuguese . @!DYLAN-DREYER# So there 's this story about these interns. @!WILLIE-GEIST# Okay . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Right . And there -- an intern at a company that we do n't actually know which company -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# Right . @!DYLAN-DREYER# -- it is but they were unhappy with the dress code . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Okay . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Okay . @!DYLAN-DREYER# It was a little too formal . They complained it was a little -- little too stuffy . And so the interns told the story to this advice site column it 's called Ask A Manager and they said that even though that their division does n't deal with clients and other people that they have this very strict dress code . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Okay . @!DYLAN-DREYER# So they submitted this proposal , this petition because they wanted to wear sandals . They did n't want to wear leather flats . They wanted to wear non-leather flats . And the next day they were pulled into a meeting @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ got rid of all of them ? @!NATALIE-MORALES# What ? Because of -- @!DYLAN-DREYER# They got rid of all of them -- @!WILLIE-GEIST# Wow . @!DYLAN-DREYER# -- because of unprofessional behavior. @!NATALIE-MORALES# So it got us talking about this . @!DYLAN-DREYER# So it got me thinking -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# Like if you 're an intern -- @!DYLAN-DREYER# -- if you 're an intern -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yeah . @!DYLAN-DREYER# -- I feel like you really have no pull whatsoever . Right ? @!NATALIE-MORALES# No , I mean -- @!WILLIE-GEIST# Right . @!NATALIE-MORALES# I always -- @!DYLAN-DREYER# I mean I feel like you just kind of go -- go with the rules . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yes . As an intern I was always told , you know , dress for the job you want , not necessarily the job you have . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Mm-Hm. @!WILLIE-GEIST# Right . @!NATALIE-MORALES# And it 's about , you know , playing this part and being that part of that company -- @!DYLAN-DREYER# Right . @!NATALIE-MORALES# -- and their culture . So you have to kind of assimilate along with the culture . And you 're right . I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't be complaining . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Yeah . @!WILLIE-GEIST# No. @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yeah . @!WILLIE-GEIST# it depends a little bit what the company was maybe . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yes . @!WILLIE-GEIST# We 're trying to take their side of it . If it was -- @!DYLAN-DREYER# If it was like a laid back company -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yes . @!WILLIE-GEIST# It 's a Wall Street firm , you do n't want to be walking around in your sneakers probably . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Right . @!WILLIE-GEIST# But if it 's a chill like startup -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# Right . @!WILLIE-GEIST# -- maybe they just wanted to dress like the people who work there . I do n't know . But that 's that . @!DYLAN-DREYER# But it does n't sound like it was a company like that . @!WILLIE-GEIST# As an intern -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yeah . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Yeah . @!WILLIE-GEIST# -- that 's certainly the way I just showed up and said tell me what to do . @!DYLAN-DREYER# I know . @!WILLIE-GEIST# And how to do it . @!DYLAN-DREYER# I will do anything . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Right . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Yeah . @!DYLAN-DREYER# And everything you want me @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? @!WILLIE-GEIST# Yeah . @!NATALIE-MORALES# I will make sure it 's like that . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Yeah . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Exactly . @!NATALIE-MORALES# And we did everything just to get that experience . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Yeah . @!NATALIE-MORALES# So -- @!WILLIE-GEIST# I 'm sorry . I 'm looking over your shoulder because something bizarre coming . @!DYLAN-DREYER# I 'm a little nervous about this . I 'm trying to procrastinate on this one a little bit . @!NATALIE-MORALES# What is this ? @!WILLIE-GEIST# Jerry , what are you doing -- @!DYLAN-DREYER# Because there is -- there 's a very strange hot dog creation that -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# Oh , a hot dog creation . @!DYLAN-DREYER# -- we have to try . So it 's -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# Wait . @!DYLAN-DREYER# -- it 's hot dog infused ice cream . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Oh , this does not sound good at all . @!WILLIE-GEIST# No. @!DYLAN-DREYER# You have to eat -- there is -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# And you 're pregnant . You probably could n't eat anything . @!DYLAN-DREYER# I know . I ca n't . And this just does n't sound that interesting to me. @!NATALIE-MORALES# So wait @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ cream as a hot dog . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Yes . Ice cream infused hot dog . It 's by DBGB Cool Dog . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Is this a prank ? @!DYLAN-DREYER# It 's -- it 's got candied cabbage on top . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Oh , it smells like a hot dog . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Honey mustard -- honey mustard and fruity ketchup . But it 's on a toasted brioche bun . It 's seven dollars and fifty cents from DBGB Kitchen and Bar . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Who 's going to give it a try ? @!DYLAN-DREYER# And Morgenstern 's Finest Ice Cream . @!NATALIE-MORALES# I 'm just saying ice cream should be ice cream and hot dog should be hot dogs . Like there 's no need to have an ice cream hot dog . @!DYLAN-DREYER# I 'm scared -- I 'm scared to try . @!WILLIE-GEIST# You- -you first . @!DYLAN-DREYER# All right . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Is that actual mustard on the -- @!DYLAN-DREYER# No , it 's honey mustard . @!WILLIE-GEIST# -- ice cream ? Put on ice cream . @!NATALIE-MORALES# I 'm sorry . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Oh , my God . @!NATALIE-MORALES# @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ -- seriously is this a prank . Where 's the thing ? No. @!DYLAN-DREYER# Oh , my God . @!WILLIE-GEIST# No , it 's real . It 's real . We should say , today is the last day it 's for sale . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Oh , my gosh . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Thank God , Dylan says . But there are four -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# I 'm sorry . @!WILLIE-GEIST# -- other limited edition flavors available throughout July . @!NATALIE-MORALES# There are people who put a lot of thought into this . It was not good . @!WILLIE-GEIST# She 's just sneezing . It 's fine . It 's not because of the food . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Right here , Dylan . Little bit on the chin . It did kind of- - it 's like a cold , slimy hot dog , which takes me back -- @!WILLIE-GEIST# Which reminds me -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# -- which takes me back to -- @!DYLAN-DREYER# Wow . @!NATALIE-MORALES# -- one of our finest Fourth of July hosting moments -- @!WILLIE-GEIST# Yeah . @!NATALIE-MORALES# -- here on the TODAY Show . Remember this , Willie ? @!WILLIE-GEIST# @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Set it up for us. @!WILLIE-GEIST# Okay . So we were reminiscing . Natalie and I were hosting the show four years ago and we had a hot dog eating contest because Joey Chestnut , the hot dog eating champion , Sonya Thomas were there . We had a contest . Natalie won because she threw it over her shoulder . I put them in my pocket . We were trying to get through them . But that 's not where the story really gets good . @!NATALIE-MORALES# No . No , this is where the story gets good . What you do n't see on the other side of the camera is the entire crew . They 're like no , no , do n't eat them . The hot dogs were not cooked . @!WILLIE-GEIST# They were not cooked . The -- the crew was waving us off . Do n't eat them . @!NATALIE-MORALES# They 're like stop . @!WILLIE-GEIST# And we said , I know , was n't this fun . @!NATALIE-MORALES# We 're like it 's so good . @!WILLIE-GEIST# We thought they were throwing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ fine . @!WILLIE-GEIST# These were not cooked hot dogs . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Were you guys not supposed to eat them ? @!WILLIE-GEIST# They were just -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# They were -- no. @!WILLIE-GEIST# -- display dogs . @!DYLAN-DREYER# So why did you guys -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# I do n't know . @!DYLAN-DREYER# -- turn it into a hot dog eating contest ? @!WILLIE-GEIST# I do n't think we turned it in. @!NATALIE-MORALES# I do n't know . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Or maybe we wanted to join in . I ca n't remember . @!NATALIE-MORALES# We wanted Joey to like -- I do n't know . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Yeah . @!NATALIE-MORALES# But anyway -- @!WILLIE-GEIST# So we -- we -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# We decided to eat some . @!WILLIE-GEIST# It made for a long Fourth of July . @!NATALIE-MORALES# It 's just so -- it was very uncomfortable . @!DYLAN-DREYER# So , would you rather have uncooked hot dogs or hot dogs -- @!WILLIE-GEIST# Uncooked hot dogs . @!NATALIE-MORALES# I 'd say the uncooked hot -- I 'm sorry again -- @!DYLAN-DREYER# I know . @!NATALIE-MORALES# -- to DBGB 's , whatever . @!WILLIE-GEIST# I 'm sure they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ They -- they have a lot of cool -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yeah . @!DYLAN-DREYER# -- other flavors. @!WILLIE-GEIST# Yeah . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yeah . @!DYLAN-DREYER# That are like regular , you know , tropical flavors and stuff . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Yeah . @!NATALIE-MORALES# That 's much better . @!DYLAN-DREYER# This one is just for the Fourth of July . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Stick to the tropics . @!WILLIE-GEIST# It 's for a particular -- I 'm told our producer Mike Greenfield likes it though . Is that true ? Or do you just saying that ? @!MIKE-GREENFIELD# No , I did like it . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Here , have it . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Really ? @!WILLIE-GEIST# Please . @!DYLAN-DREYER# it was honey mustard . @!NATALIE-MORALES# By all means , finish mine . @!DYLAN-DREYER# it 's the honey mustard that got me. @!WILLIE-GEIST# It 's the mustard on ice cream thing . @!MIKE-GREENFIELD# I -- I will -- I will eat it . @!NATALIE-MORALES# It 's the -- it 's the sour crowd on ice cream . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Well , that too . @!MIKE-GREENFIELD# Well , can I eat one that you have n't taken a bite of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yes . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Trust me . I did n't take a bite . @!MIKE-GREENFIELD# Here we go . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Oh . And it really is that good ? @!WILLIE-GEIST# What do you like about it , honestly ? @!NATALIE-MORALES# It 's like cold -- @!MIKE-GREENFIELD# It tastes a little bit like a hot dog but it 's still got the ice cream and the bun is good . This is great . @!NATALIE-MORALES# The ice cream , the hot dog -- @!MIKE-GREENFIELD# This is fantastic . @!NATALIE-MORALES# -- the mustard . @!MIKE-GREENFIELD# Fantastic . It 's great . @!WILLIE-GEIST# You can have some more . @ ( Cross talking ) @!NATALIE-MORALES# All right . @!MIKE-GREENFIELD# I 'll eat the rest of it over here . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yeah , serve it up to the crew . @!DYLAN-DREYER# I feel so bad I did n't like it . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yeah . @!DYLAN-DREYER# But -- @!WILLIE-GEIST# you spoke for a lot of people this morning . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yeah . so . @!WILLIE-GEIST# All right . So let 's start , we 've got Fourth of July . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yeah . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you know , actually we had a really good time this weekend . We are with some old friends who in the -- in Hoboken and we 're starting to say a lot of our sad goodbyes . But take a look at -- the top photo -- @!DYLAN-DREYER# I love this . @!NATALIE-MORALES# -- was a photo -- @!WILLIE-GEIST# Oh , that 's so cool . @!NATALIE-MORALES# -- from seven years ago as you can see my little Luke with his shirt pulled up . All of our friends were with us and we decided to recreate the picture with our kids . So we 've got -- @!DYLAN-DREYER# I love it . @!WILLIE-GEIST# That is so cool . @!NATALIE-MORALES# -- we 've got the ( unintelligible ) , we 've got the ( unintelligible ) @!DYLAN-DREYER# With the shirt pulled up and everything . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yeah . With the shirt pulled up , the Tanlers , all the kids . And even Luke was okay with pulling his shirt up again just to -- the kids actually wanted to do this picture -- @!WILLIE-GEIST# That 's such a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . So we recreated that moment . @!DYLAN-DREYER# I love that . @!NATALIE-MORALES# And again , just great friends . And -- and life-long friends no matter where we live , so . @!WILLIE-GEIST# You should keep doing that like -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yeah . We were like -- @!WILLIE-GEIST# -- every five years -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# -- okay , seven years from now -- @!WILLIE-GEIST# -- recreate the picture . @!NATALIE-MORALES# -- let 's all get together again -- @!WILLIE-GEIST# Yeah , right . @!NATALIE-MORALES# -- somewhere . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Well , you 're -- yeah , you 're leaving soonish @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yeah , soonish. @!WILLIE-GEIST# So you 've got a lot of people who want to see you before you- - @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yeah . @!WILLIE-GEIST# -- before you head out . @!NATALIE-MORALES# It 's fun . It 's sad but fun . Yeah . Meanwhile , you 've got a big night tonight . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Yes . @!NATALIE-MORALES# You 've got to be -- @!WILLIE-GEIST# I 'll be hosting -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# -- hosting . @!WILLIE-GEIST# -- with our pal Tamron Hall at the Macy 's Fourth of July Fireworks Spectacular . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , seven Central . We 've got performances from Kenny Chesney , 5 Seconds of Summer , Meghan Trainor , Pitbull , Sara Bareilles , DNCE -Cake by the Ocean -- @!DYLAN-DREYER# It 's a lineup . @!WILLIE-GEIST# -- the Brass Band -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# Huge . @!WILLIE-GEIST# -- that 's going to be back . The Air Force Brass . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Amazing . @!WILLIE-GEIST# And a huge show . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Are you in tomorrow morning ? @!WILLIE-GEIST# I 'll be in tomorrow morning . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Wow . That should be fun . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Wow . @!WILLIE-GEIST# So we 're going to have you do the heavy lifting tomorrow morning . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Get ready , Dylan . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Yes . @!NATALIE-MORALES# How 's the forecast for his Fourth ? @!DYLAN-DREYER# The forecast looks good here in New York City , it looks like maybe some clouds , maybe a sprinkle . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Okay . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yeah . @!DYLAN-DREYER# That -- that 's about it . So elsewhere across the country we are dealing with some chance of storms especially where we 've had the storms lately down through Kentucky , down @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ tonight for fireworks in areas like St. Louis and most of Southern Missouri and even into Southern Illinois . But it 's this type of setup it 's just been stuck in place for a while with the humidity streaming in from the south , the rain that comes has the potential to produce about two to three inches of rain in a short period of time . So that 's why we have some flash flood watches in effect . We see the heavier rain moving through Southern Illinois and Southern Indiana and eventually Southern Ohio right now . But it will continue to spread eastward through West Virginia through the day today , even into Washington DC , unsettled all day long with more thunderstorms possible by firework time later on tonight . That 's a look at the weather across the country . Now here 's a peek out your window . @ ( Weather follows ) @!DYLAN-DREYER# And that 's your latest forecast . @!WILLIE-GEIST# All right , Dylan . Thanks lot . Coming up next , the new Ghostbusters , the newborn , and the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Life of Pets . " We will mark your entertainment calendars for the month of July next . @(ANNOUNCEMENTS) @!NATALIE-MORALES# From big animated adventures to new albums and blockbusters sequels , we have a lot of entertainment to keep you busy this month . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Here to help you mark your calendars , SiriusXM 's Entertainment Weekly radio hot Jessica Shaw . Jessica , happy Fourth . Good to see you . @!JESSICA-SHAW# Happy Fourth . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Hi . @!WILLIE-GEIST# All right . Let 's dig right in here . This Friday , my kids are counting down the days to " The Secret Life of Pets . " @!JESSICA-SHAW# I mean I 'm counting down the days . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yeah . @!JESSICA-SHAW# It 's about a dog named Max , voiced by Louis C.K. , who is living his best life in New York with his owner , voiced by Ellie Kemper , when she brings home another dog , voiced by Eric Stonestreet . The voice casts is amazing in addition to those guys . You 've got Kevin Hart , Jenny Slate and Albert Brooks , who @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . He 's also in Finding Dori , of course . @!WILLIE-GEIST# That 's right . @!NATALIE-MORALES# It 's a big -- it 's going to be a big hit . All right . Also this Friday , Kenny Chesney , new album coming out . @!JESSICA-SHAW# He does . He has a new album coming out . It 's very personal album . He likes to say that it 's very much a social commentary on how we are all so engaged in social media . We 're not having human contact . He wants people to actually speak , not just text emojis to one another . Tune out the news cycle and things like that . He also might want to encourage his fans to maybe embrace moderation and not drink so much . Twenty-five people are taken to the hospital over the weekend at the Kenny Chesney concert for public intoxication. @!NATALIE-MORALES# Wow . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Yeah , that 's a terrible story . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Quite a lot . @!JESSICA-SHAW# Really , yeah . @!WILLIE-GEIST# We reached out to Kenny for a comment and they have not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ jump ahead to July 13th . Great show , Mr. Robot Returns . @!JESSICA-SHAW# Love this show . Rami Malek and Christian Slater . It 's about a hacktivist , hacker activist . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yeah . @!JESSICA-SHAW# You know , so you have the lingo . This show when it came at season one was so great . It won the Golden Globe for best drama . Christian Slater won for Best Supporting Actor . Season two Grace Gummer , daughter of Meryl Streep , is joining the cast as an FBI agent -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# Oh , wow . @!JESSICA-SHAW# -- on -- on their trail . @!NATALIE-MORALES# It 's so brilliantly done . @!JESSICA-SHAW# Yeah . @!NATALIE-MORALES# All right . This is one we are all waiting for . July 15th . Get ready , get set , " Ghostbusters " are back and it 's the all-female cast . @!JESSICA-SHAW# It is . There 's been like a little bit of drama here . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Just a little bit . We have a little mentioned here or there . @!JESSICA-SHAW# Yeah . Kate McKinnon , Leslie Jones , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Ghostbusters " this time . There 's been a lot of very disturbing misogyny surrounding this movie , like people so upset like heaven forbid that women -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# That women could take over . @!JESSICA-SHAW# -- do a rebirth of this movie . It does not seem to bother any of the original cast . Bill Murray , Dan Aykroyd , Sigourney Weaver , all make cameos in the movie . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Oh , I ca n't wait . @!WILLIE-GEIST# They 're four of the funniest people , men or women , on the planet . @!JESSICA-SHAW# Exactly . @!WILLIE-GEIST# I can not wait to see that movie . @!JESSICA-SHAW# Thank you . Yeah . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Also that day , let 's go to HBO , Vice Principal . We are just saying Danny McBride where he goes , we follow . @!JESSICA-SHAW# Oh , absolutely . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Yes . Yes . @!JESSICA-SHAW# I loved Danny McBride . Obviously from Eastbound & Down . He teams up with Walton Goggins who was also amazing from " Justified . " @!NATALIE-MORALES# So good . @!JESSICA-SHAW# Very dark comedy . They @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ like do whatever it takes to become principal . @!NATALIE-MORALES# And Bill Murray in it too . @!JESSICA-SHAW# Bill Murray . @!NATALIE-MORALES# That 's fantastic . @!JESSICA-SHAW# He is -- yeah , he of course is in the first episode . @!NATALIE-MORALES# All right . Friday , July 22nd , the new " Star Trek " film is hitting theaters. @!JESSICA-SHAW# " Star Trek Beyond . " Yes , Kirk and the whole gang , they are off in space when they are attacked by aliens . They have to abandon their ship . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Mm-Hm. @!JESSICA-SHAW# And somehow find a way back to earth . Rihanna did this -- Rihanna , by the way , self-proclaimed lifelong Trek fan . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Okay . @!JESSICA-SHAW# Who knew ? She did the song . But there is a cloud of sadness -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yeah . @!JESSICA-SHAW# -- over this movie , of course . Anton Yelchin who plays Chekov , very tragically passed away earlier this month . @!NATALIE-MORALES# That 's right . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Okay . In the world of books , a big one coming out on the 26th. @!JESSICA-SHAW# @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Guilty . " I 'm so excited for this . She did Big Little Lies , which is now being adopted -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yes . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Mm-Hm. @!JESSICA-SHAW# -- with Reese Witherspoon into an FBO series . This one is about six adults , three kids , and a dog over the course of a weekend . What could go wrong ? @!NATALIE-MORALES# Everything . @!JESSICA-SHAW# Everything . Exactly . This is going to be on every ( unintelligible ) seller . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Oh , I 'll be bringing that for sure . @!JESSICA-SHAW# Oh , yeah . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Got to get my hot coffee . Jessica , thank you . Great stuff . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Thanks , Jessica . Yeah , happy Fourth . @!JESSICA-SHAW# Thank you . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Coming up next , we 'll celebrate America 's two-hundred-and- fortieth-birthday with a little history quiz . @!WILLIE-GEIST# That 's right . Natalie , Dylan and I go head to head in a Fourth of July Pop Quiz . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Oops . @!WILLIE-GEIST# All right . Oh , and we 're popping balloons . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Are you getting warmed up there @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ That was fun . @(ANNOUNCEMENTS) @!DYLAN-DREYER# We are back on this Fourth of July . And we are about to find out who knows the most about our country 's independence . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Here with a Fourth of July pop quiz , deputy news director and host of BuzzFeed 's news quiz show on Facebook Live , Gavon Laessig. @!NATALIE-MORALES# All right . And we should note that NBCUniversal is an investor in BuzzFeed . Gavon , good morning . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Hey , Gavon. @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Good morning , everybody . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Good to see you , man . Happy Fourth . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Happy Fourth of July . @!NATALIE-MORALES# So you know the rules of the game . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Yeah . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Because we don't. @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Okay . @!DYLAN-DREYER# we 'd figure it out . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# So we 're going to be doing a patriotic pop quiz and popping will be featured prominently in this quiz . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Okay . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Okay . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# So each of you will take turns throwing darts at the wall of balloons . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Okay . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Okay . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# If you pop a balloon @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ However , if you do not pop a balloon , then it gets thrown open to everybody , the point is up for grabs . But you have to answer a trivia question . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Okay . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Okay . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Okay . @!NATALIE-MORALES# All right . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# However -- @!WILLIE-GEIST# So who goes first ? @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Well , however , in order to answer the trivia question first , it 's kind of complicated . I know . Again , keeping with the popping theme -- @!DYLAN-DREYER# Yeah , to pop this . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# -- you use the party popper -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# The popper . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Okay . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Use it as a buzzer as you would on any normal game show . @!WILLIE-GEIST# We 're out of time . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Okay . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Yeah . @!WILLIE-GEIST# We 'll be right back . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Let 's go . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Okay . @!NATALIE-MORALES# All right . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Let 's get started . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Here we go . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Okay . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Who throws first ? @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Dylan . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Okay . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Go ahead , Dylan . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Why do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Yay , I get a point . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Point for Dylan . @!NATALIE-MORALES# And she gets a point . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Great . @!NATALIE-MORALES# She does n't have to answer a question . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# No. @!WILLIE-GEIST# Oh , I see . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Natalie . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Oh . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Natalie gets a point . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Gets a point . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Oh . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Okay . @!WILLIE-GEIST# I do n't think it 's -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# All right . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Everybody grab the popper . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Here we go . Popper . @!WILLIE-GEIST# All right . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Question number one . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Uh-huh . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Who was born on the Fourth of July ? Multiple choice . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Oh , jeez . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Play psychological games . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Well , it 's over there . @!NATALIE-MORALES# I saw it over there . @!WILLIE-GEIST# So looked ahead . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Sorry . @ ( Cross talking ) @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Let 's read it first . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Okay . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# So everybody playing along at home -- @!WILLIE-GEIST# There you go . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# -- can answer as well . @!NATALIE-MORALES# I 'm making sure it 's working . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Fourth of July ? A , Geraldo Rivera , B , Neil Simon , C , Malia Obama , D , All of the above . @!NATALIE-MORALES# I was -- I was going to say Tom Cruise . But I 'll go with all of the above . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# As a matter of fact , it is all of the above . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Hey . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Wow . @!WILLIE-GEIST# All right . Okay . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Yeah . Geraldo is turning seventy-three . Neil Simon , eighty- nine . Malia is eighteen . @!DYLAN-DREYER# All right . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Happy birthday , everybody . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Happy birthday . All right . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Dylan . @!DYLAN-DREYER# All right . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Now we 've got the rules . Go ahead . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Okay . @!NATALIE-MORALES# All right . @!DYLAN-DREYER# I missed . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# All right . Poppers at the ready . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Poppers . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Okay . Poppers . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Okay . @!WILLIE-GEIST# All right . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Poppers . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Okay . @!WILLIE-GEIST# So many rules . @!NATALIE-MORALES# I know . We just want ( unintelligible ) @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Second question , how many hot @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ pop . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Oh , there we go . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Well , Willie -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# Willie is first . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# -- Willie got that one . @!WILLIE-GEIST# D , two hundred million . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Wrong . @!DYLAN-DREYER# No. @!NATALIE-MORALES# Oh . @!DYLAN-DREYER# You 're next . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Okay . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Sorry . You 're next . @!NATALIE-MORALES# I 'd say fifty million . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# The hundred and fifty ? @!NATALIE-MORALES# No. @!DYLAN-DREYER# I was going to say a hundred and fifty . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# It 's a hundred and fifty . Right . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Okay . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# It 's a hundred and fifty million . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Okay , cool . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Who is measuring ? @!NATALIE-MORALES# All right . Here we go . @!WILLIE-GEIST# All right , here we go . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Let 's go again . Ready ? Is this my turn now , right ? @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Let 's add more projectile . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Oh , okay . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Yeah . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Whoa , okay . @!WILLIE-GEIST# You 've got two ? @!DYLAN-DREYER# I do pop -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# I got two . Yes . @!WILLIE-GEIST# All right . Oh , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ get two points ? @!NATALIE-MORALES# Yes . I got two . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Oh . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Oh . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Popper time . @!WILLIE-GEIST# I like the poppers . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Get my popper . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# All right . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Here we go . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# All right . Who is the only President to be born on the Fourth of July ? Thomas Jefferson , Calvin Coolidge , Ronald Reagan , or Theodore Roosevelt . Dylan ? @!NATALIE-MORALES# Right , Dylan . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Theodore Roosevelt . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# No. @!WILLIE-GEIST# I had a faulty TJ. @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Nope . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Oh , he died on the Fourth of July . @!NATALIE-MORALES# I was going to say Ronald Reagan ? @!GAVON-LAESSIG# All of you are wrong . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Calvin Coolidge. @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Calvin Coolidge . So I like -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# Can we just keep popping balloons . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Yeah , yeah . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Come on , let 's get down to the real fight . @!WILLIE-GEIST# TJ died on the Fourth . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Since we 're out of time -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# Okay . @!DYLAN-DREYER# Oh , wait , it 's my -- @!NATALIE-MORALES# Gavon , thank you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!GAVON-LAESSIG# Nope . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Oh . All right . @!WILLIE-GEIST# Okay . @!NATALIE-MORALES# Just ahead -- @!GAVON-LAESSIG# I like to point out that nobody is using their safety googles. @!NATALIE-MORALES# -- the bravest military men and women showing off their spirit at a big event by Jon Stewart , after your local news . @(ANNOUNCEMENTS) @!NATALIE-MORALES# Taking a look at the headlines . If you have a pet , you know this is probably their least favorite day of the year . In a recent survey , forty-four percent of dog owners reported their dog has some aversion to loud noises . And shelters say tomorrow is their busiest day of the year , because so many dogs run away from firework in fear . Also , emergency visits to the vets skyrocketed on the Fourth of July by forty- eight percent . That 's next to pets eating things that they should n't . Well , child care costs are soaring at a pace far greater than most goods and services . According to government data , the cost of raising a child born in 2013 until the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ hundred and forty-five thousand dollars . That 's nineteen thousand dollars more than the cost of a raising a child born ten years earlier . If Washington , D.C. were to become a state , what do you think it should be called ? A commission looking into that says its new name could be New Columbia . That name beat out other suggestions , including The State of Washington , D.C. and Potomac . The group even drafted a constitution . Members of the commission hope the idea of D.C. 's statehood might gain traction at this month 's Democratic National Convention . Well , it may be a bit tougher to see how much money you 're saving when shopping on Amazon . According to The New York Times , Amazon is moving away from posting list prices . Instead , it will use just the current price for items . The move comes after people started questioning the discounts they got online and in stores , with some consumers even filing lawsuits . Finding Dory held onto the top spot at the box office once again , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ forty-two million dollars over the first three days long holiday weekend . The Legend of Tarzan was second , The Purge : Election Year was third . Let 's get a check of the weather once again . Dylan is in for Al . Hey , Dyls. @!DYLAN-DREYER# Hey . Good morning , Natalie . Good morning , everyone . Let 's take a look at what we can expect this week as far as precipitation is concerned . It 's been raining for quite a few days now through the Midwest and into the Ohio and Tennessee River Valleys . This is moving eastward . And by the time we get to the middle of the week , same kind of zone that 's seen the showers and some scattered thunderstorms . But it 's really by the end of the week in and around the Great Lakes where we do have the chance where some severe storms could develop . So something to keep an eye out for later on this week . Now , as we look at temperatures , it 's below normal in this area @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we 've been seeing . But watch as the above normal temperatures will start to spread by the middle of the week . Even up across New England , temperatures well above average down through D.C. , up into New York City . Temperatures in the mid- nineties . Down south , temperatures will be in the nineties . But your feels like temperature will be well up around a hundred and five to a hundred and ten degrees . And then a little bit cooler in the Pacific Northwest . That 's a look at the weather across the country . Now here 's a peek out your window . @ ( Weather follows ) @!DYLAN-DREYER# And that 's your latest forecast . @!WILLIE-GEIST# All right , Dylan . Thanks a lot . We are celebrating our armed forces on this Fourth of July with a look at one of the military 's biggest events , The Warrior Games . @!NATALIE-MORALES# All branches of the U.S. military joined in a battle for gold . The annual event even inspired Britain 's Prince Harry to create the Invictus Games .

@@4172141 @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) No , this is something brand new . We 've all heard about taking your kids to work , of course , right ? MICHAEL STRAHAN ( ABC NEWS ) @(Off-camera) Uh-huh . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# Well , there 's a brand-new thing out now since millennials , I did n't know this , are now half the workforce , some companies are starting take your parents to work day . Amazon , oh you like that , you do not like that idea at all . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) ( inaudible ) @!LARA-SPENCER# @(Voiceover) I love it . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Voiceover) She 's , like , wait a second . Please . ( inaudible ) KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) I am not taking my parents to work . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Voiceover) Why are you so horrified by the idea of your parents coming to work ? @!AUDIENCE-MEMBER# I do n't know . My mom is just a little , she 's wild . She likes to ... KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) Hear , hear . @!LARA-SPENCER# @(Off-camera) Yeah . KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) My mom 's wild , too @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) I , yeah , but that 's different as bringing your daughter ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Yeah . KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) ... to set day . @!LARA-SPENCER# @(Off-camera) Yeah . KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) Bringing my mom to set is a whole other ball game . She walks in , it 's like a tornado. @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) Oh , look at these pics . KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) Oh , Mama . Mama Goldie . Yeah , well , she , yeah , you know , she 's , she 's Goldie Hawn . She 's wild . It 's , like , it 's , like , I remember when my mom would do hot lunch at school . And I was just , like , oh , no. @!LARA-SPENCER# @(Off-camera) There 's ( inaudible ) mom . KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) You know , with the pizza and the thing , you know , singing things and I was like , you know @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , God . MICHAEL STRAHAN ( ABC NEWS ) @(Off-camera) Everything you wanted for ( inaudible ) ? KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) Yeah . MICHAEL STRAHAN ( ABC NEWS ) @(Off-camera) Everything ... KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) Well , you know , it 's , she 's , like , she , like , pirouettes everywhere and , like , it 's the best . She 's still pirouetting everywhere , but , but , you know , when you 're a kid , I , you know , you 're sort of your parents , when they 're wild , you 're , like , oh ... @!LARA-SPENCER# @(Off-camera) Yeah . KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) ... and Ryder 's kind of like that with me now , too so , you know . I get it . I get being scared of ( inaudible ) . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) This is the first movie , " Deepwater Horizon , " where you get to work with your pop , Kurt Russell . @!LARA-SPENCER# @(Off-camera) Oh , right . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " ) Yeah , that 's right . Yeah . @!LARA-SPENCER# @(Voiceover) So , again with the theme take your parents to work day . I do n't know if that was sort of equal but what was that like ? KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) That was cool . You know , what I really , really loved about being on set with , we did n't have many scenes together in the film , but what I loved about being on set with him was , it was a reminder of me , of where I fell in love with making movies . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Voiceover) Mmm . KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) And watching him , you know , it 's a very different experience when you 're watching a movie being made than watching the movie because it 's horribly boring . I mean , it 's just a , being on set is , oh , I love that picture , but it 's really boring . And , an , and , but for me as a kid , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of it and , and I loved watching Kurt because he 's such a phenomenal actor and he 's , he 's ... @!LARA-SPENCER# @(Voiceover) Aw . KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) Yeah . And , but he would put so much care and effort into his roles and in a way that is , is , is different than of a lot of young people that I 've worked with , you know ? It 's just a different mentality . @!LARA-SPENCER# @(Off-camera) Yeah , total master class at home . KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) Kind of , yeah . @!LARA-SPENCER# @(Off-camera) But let 's talk about you because you , as Mark Wahlberg said , you 're that sort of emotional heart of , of this film . Of " Deepwater Horizon . " KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) You know , Felicia , in this film I play , I play Mark 's wife Felicia Williams and she - really the character represents all of the families on the " Deepwater " who were left in the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with their families , not knowing , not having any idea if they were gon na come home . And ( inaudible ) , I literally get the chills every time I talk about it because it , what , you know , I got , you got to be on set with these people and you get to talk about this experience that was incredibly traumatic and you , you realize what , like , what Felicia said . She said one minute felt like , felt like an eternity and ... @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Voiceover) And she was on set with you ? KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) She was on set with us sometimes , yeah . I got to talk to her a lot . She 's a wonderful , very strong woman . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Voiceover) I love that scene . KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) And , yeah . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Voiceover) Well , let 's , let 's show people a , a bit of this . This is when your character , Felicia , gets some really bad news . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " DEEPWATER HORIZON " KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) Natalie , this is Felicia Williams . Our husbands work on the " Deepwater Horizon " together . Well , I just called the Coast Guard and they can just confirm that there 's a fire but I just was wondering if maybe you heard something . @!ACTOR# What did the Coast Guard say ? KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) Just that there 's been a fire . @!ACTOR# Shelly heard people were jumping off the rig . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Voiceover) Oh , gosh . I was telling ... KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) I ca n't watch it . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) ... I , I know . I know . You ca n't . KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) I ca n't watch it . It 's very hard . Yeah . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) There 's a lot of people that are like that . And for people who are not familiar with the story , yes , it was this horrible , horrible environmental disaster and that , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ became a footnote to the story . And this , these families were so appreciative of you and Mark and the whole cast for bringing their story ... KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) Uh-huh . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) ... and letting people know how it impacted them . KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) Yeah , it was really wonderful to be in New Orleans and have the premiere . We did a premiere in New Orleans where nine of the 11 families were there and you really felt it . You know , we , we , we felt it and we knew it when we were doing it . We just , you have this sort of extra added thing in the back of your head going , you know , the families are gon na see this movie . So , you really want to be careful and , and you , you , there 's no , there 's no carelessness going into making a film like that when you know the families are watching and , and , and then when @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ just sort of have this moment to kind of pay , it just a , it 's just , it sort of feels like , a , a , you know , a , a - a sort of memoriam , @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) Yeah . KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) Or a , you know , to , to these , these people who really saved each other . You know , a lot of , there were some real heroes on that rig . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) Yes . KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) It 's , it 's , it 's a , it 's surprising that more did not die because they were so there for each other . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) And when you watch the film , you 're , you 're thinking , oh , my gosh . I mean , it 's tragic that 11 lost their lives but so many more could have and Mark 's character who he , he portrays and , and ( inaudible ) . KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ rig ... MICHAEL STRAHAN ( ABC NEWS ) @(Voiceover) Mike . KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) ... Mike Williams , but , you know , the thing that is , what Pete did that 's really amazing about this movie , because , you know , I read the script , I know the story and then I watched the movie and I was completely engaged , which is - which is rare when you 're making movies and Pete did this amazing job of sort of , you feel like you 're in , it 's , it 's ... MICHAEL STRAHAN ( ABC NEWS ) @(Off-camera) In the middle of it . KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) ... it 's full on , you know ? @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) Yeah . KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) You , you 're in the , and it 's just , it 's almost like you feel this anxiety , like , people will really get an experience ... @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) I know . KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) ... @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , oh , my God . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) Yeah . KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) You know ? @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) Can we say this about you ? You have always been a joy to watch . Always very talented , but you have blossomed . You have , ( inaudible ) from this beautiful , beautiful soul of an actress . KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) Thank you . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) And thank you for sharing that . You know ? KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) Thank you . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) ( inaudible ) just ... KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) @ ( makes noise ) . @!LARA-SPENCER# @(Off-camera) You sell them . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# I mean that . That is why you are here ( inaudible ) . We love you . @!LARA-SPENCER# @(Off-camera) ( inaudible ) KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) Thank you . MICHAEL STRAHAN ( ABC NEWS ) @(Off-camera) What is , what is , all ... @!LARA-SPENCER# @(Off-camera) You 're ( inaudible ) . MICHAEL STRAHAN ( ABC NEWS ) @(Off-camera) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) Yeah . MICHAEL STRAHAN ( ABC NEWS ) @(Off-camera) ... one of my favorite people . @!LARA-SPENCER# @(Off-camera) Yup . MICHAEL STRAHAN ( ABC NEWS ) @(Off-camera) You really are . KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) @(Off-camera) Aw . MICHAEL STRAHAN ( ABC NEWS ) @(Off-camera) And you 're so talented . KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) Shucks . MICHAEL STRAHAN ( ABC NEWS ) @(Off-camera) ( inaudible ) I said , and you know , the movie ... @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) Two girl crushes right here . @!LARA-SPENCER# @(Off-camera) ( inaudible ) MICHAEL STRAHAN ( ABC NEWS ) @(Off-camera) " Deepwater Horizon " hits theaters on Friday . KATE HUDSON ( " DEEPWATER HORIZON " ) Thanks , guys . MICHAEL STRAHAN ( ABC NEWS ) @(Off-camera) Make sure you go out and check it out . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS# @(Off-camera) Please . MICHAEL STRAHAN ( ABC NEWS ) @(Off-camera) And coming up , David Oyelowo is here live and we 'll be right back on " GMA. "

@@4172241 CONTENT : TEIGEN , BURIED , MARRIAGE , BABY So welcome back . Chrissy Teigen just admitted that before she did in vitro fertilization , she chose the sex of her baby , saying she loved the thought of her husband , - John Legend , having a daughter . And people got very freaked out that she could do something , ' cause she had several embryos and she chose the girl embryo because they know , they can tell now , because that 's what science has done . But some people are concerned because they feel it 's , the next step is choosing ... Well , it 's a slippery slope to designer babies . That 's what everybody is afraid of , that everybody is gon na pick a baby that has the coloring that they like , and you 'll have , you know , people are just gon na pick blonde babies with blue eyes . Not black people . I do n't think so . And every kid 's gon na look like the " Village of the Damned . " Did you ever seen that movie ? Honestly , honestly @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ remember , I remember hearing about designer babies a little while ago , like in the early 2000s . And I really thought about it . Yes , I was young , but I thought about it . I know I have diabetes in my family . If you know you have breast cancer in your family , if you know you have these illnesses in your family ... Right . ... as a mother , that I 'm not , what would I do to help the child have the best future they can have . that 's genetic testing . They have that already . They have genetic testing , but , I mean , if you have , but I understand like diabetes , yeah . Wait , she 's talking about something else . She 's talking about ... What are you talking about ? Go ahead , finish . They do n't want me to talk , go ahead . No , please finish . If I could design the embryo to where I can get that gene out , if I can help that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that . I would n't really mess with the eyes or , you know , mess with the hair color or anything of that nature because you do n't know what 's gon na happen and you do n't know the reverse effects of it . But I 'm gon na try my best to do something to prevent those illnesses the best I can . And because that 's where we are in this generation . That 's how I feel . That 's a good intention , but like , when you start , I mean , you talk about a slippery slope and where do you draw the line between what color eyes do they have . that right there , you know , that 's a noble , that 's definitely a good reason to , to , to do ... Were n't they aborting all the girls in China for several generations ? No , no . They sold them . They , if you had a ... They were aborting them , too . ... if you , if you , well , they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they had , but I do know that they would abandon them on the side of the road , which they 've outlawed , finally . But , but , I , I , you know , I just , people have their needs for their reasons and whatever reasons they have for the child that they want . Now , I do n't think everybody is gon na make blonde-haired , blue-eyed babies ' cause ... No. ... you know , I do n't think I would . I ... I , I did n't say you would . A lot of people would , though , Yeah , but I , you know , there 's a lot of Asian folks , there 's a lot of black people , there 's , and I do n't think we would . I know . that 's a sad statement , Joy . I do n't think they ... It 's a sad statement , but it 's , it 's ... I do n't think it 's truthful . When , when , when you read all these @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in life and beautiful people in this country are ... But blonde does n't always equal beautiful . Well , we 're working on it . We 're working on it . But it 's still out there , a lot of it . Look at the magazines . Skinny , you know what I mean ? I have to say this . Remember , remember , remember the big boom of everybody being orange , remember , ' cause everybody wanted spray tans and they wanted to dye their hair . Like , there is this , oh , it was huge . It was , people were ... Where have I been ? I do n't remember that . People wanted to be orange ? Are you serious ? That 's hilarious . No , it was like ' cause people 's spray tans were getting out of control . Oh , I see . And everybody was orange , especially in Cali . Anyway , I feel like it 's not , it does n't portray exactly what we 're used to seeing as beauty . People @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . You 're seeing it more and more . It 's a change . Yeah , we 're working on it . There 's a change . Well , and , and also , beauty is in the eye of the beholder , you know . You , what is beautiful in a magazine is not necessarily beautiful to other people . But I also , go ahead , baby . Just to go back to your point . I mean , I , I was blessed to be able to conceive children . I did n't have a problem to have that , so I understand that 's a huge struggle for many women that can and go to find in vitro . But I did n't find out the sex of my babies , for any of them . ' Cause that 's one of the last really big surprises left in life . And I wanted to be surprised . But even to your point that you were making , I did n't even want any of the genetic testing ' cause if I knew there was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ my baby in any case . Anyway . You were young , I mean , but you were young , too . But I would , I hold that decision today , too . No . But I 'm just saying , like , when , the older you are , you 're almost , they , they almost require you . I know with my last , I was 37 and they asked if I wanted genetic testing . Yes , yes . No , you can do that . But I 'm saying the point is I , you know , I , I feel that God gives life ... Exactly . ... and no matter what the circumstances , you would provide the best care for your baby no matter how they 're born , no matter what handicaps they have . As less , as long , as long as you can . As long as you can afford it . And that 's really important to keep in mind , you know , ' cause people do horrible things to just , horrible stuff . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the best start we can . But we also want the parents of the child to also have the best that they can and be , you know , forthright . Anyway , Chrissy , congratulations , you 're having a baby . Yeah . Oh , yeah , and by the way ... You look so pretty . She looks awesome . Well , yeah , and this , even if she put on 9,000 pounds , she 'd still look like Chrissy Teigen , okay ? So that 's a good thing . We 'll be right back . The " View " would like to thank Apple and Eve for providing our entire studio audience with a bottle of their 100 percent pure juice . Oh , hey , we got a lot more " Hot Topics " coming up . See , check it out . Come on back now . So welcome back . A woman wrote to an online advice column , Dear Prudence , because she 's conflicted about which husband to be buried next to . Ten years ago her first husband @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ gravesite . But now she 's happily remarried with kids and maybe wants to be buried beside her current husband . How would you handle this ? I would wait until the in-laws pass away and then make the , no . I 'm , but she has kids now . I would want to be buried next to my husband and my kids . I would eBay that and get that money back and go lay next to who I want to lay next to while I 'm gone . there 's only one solution . Cremation . Yes , I agree . Cremation , and spread my ashes over Liam Neeson . I want cremation . They spent a lot of money though . To cremate ? No , no , no . They spent a lot of money on the thing . you 'd have to , she should explain to the folks and say thank you so much , you know , and give them the money back . Yes . And see maybe what , you know , maybe they , they want to go @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , where is the , that person 's family member that could be , you know , if he has a sister that has n't died yet or a , a , has a family member . Or maybe they wan na be next to him . I mean , it 's , you know , I always get ... It 's a big decision . It is a huge decision . I say put me in the microwave , let me go . We 'll , we 'll do that . Yeah , that 's what I do . Okay . So tune in to " Consent On Campus , " which is a " Nightline " event , apparently , tonight at 12:35 Eastern , right here on ABC , for an eye-opening look about what 's really going on on college campuses right now . Yeah . There 's a lot going on on college campuses . I , I see time left . But it , you know . There 's , yeah , it 's kind of crazy . A little confusing , right . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . So go ahead . But you know , do you think that one of the things that makes relationships really disappear , when you know it 's done ... Yeah ? ... is that you 're really , like , fed up . There 's a word for it . What do they call it ? Contempt . Contempt . When you just have contempt for that person . Yeah , it 's like quiet . And is that , is that when you know it 's really over ? It 's like quietly hating the person . Yes . It 's more , it 's more , you know , worse . It 's more vile than , like , arguing in a way ' cause there 's still heat , but there 's like this quiet hatred . So it 's , it 's worse than resentment ' cause resentment and bitterness can build and then you have contempt and then it 's just over . Then it 's over . Why , well , well , wait , when you get , when you get resentment @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? That 's the question . Not , should n't you have a conversation about it ? ' Cause it 's slow . It 's a slow build ( inaudible ) . I ask all married people that . I 'm so quick to say goodbye . As soon as I 'm angry , but then , again , I 'm not married . I do n't have kids and I know that divorce is expensive . Right . There are children involved . There are , well ... So you let the resentment build . But let me tell you something about kids . Kids feel that resentment . Kids know . I 've had situations where my friends were like , I wish my parents would get divorced already because it 's an unhealthy environment . Do n't always blame it on us that you 're staying in a sad situation . You need to help us out , too . I do n't , I do n't agree with that at all . that kids would rather have you miserable than divorced . I really do . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ divorce . They hate it , hate it , hate it . And that does n't mean you do n't do it . I did it . But they hate it . You did n't do it . You 're here . Well , I , the first time . Yeah . I 'm an advocate for growing within that relationship together . Yes , good luck . We 'll be right back . That 's right . They 're two of Hollywood 's most wanted men . Hugh Jackman and Taron Egerton hit the table , next .

@@4172341 @!MICHAEL-MANDEL , -Ch# The rise of the fulfillment center jobs is having the effect of reducing inequality , because what you 're doing is you 're talking about raising the wages for people with a high school education by 30 percent . That 's significant . @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# All that and more on tonight 's " PBS NewsHour . " @(BREAK) @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# Thirteen killed , scores more hurt , two arrests , grim results of today 's attack in Barcelona , where a speeding vehicle vaulted a sidewalk and drove down its victims . It follows similar attacks across Europe , and , last weekend , in Charlottesville , Virginia . For more , we turn to Lorenzo Vidino , who leads the Program on Extremism at George Washington University . Spain has n't been the -- has n't been the site of these attacks . We have seen a lot of focus on London and also in France . @!LORENZO-VIDINO , -Ge# Yes . the last time Spain was hit was in 2004 , when we had the Madrid bombings . But since the mobilization in Europe has been ISIS- linked , Spain has not been touched by the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ some of the Central , Northern European countries have . @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# Why is that ? @!LORENZO-VIDINO# It 's for a variety of reasons , but mostly mobilization in Europe for ISIS has been a second-generation phenomenon . And the Southern European countries , like Spain , like Italy , do not have a large number of second-generation Muslims , people who are born and raised in those countries . So , I 'm not saying that Spain has not been touched by the phenomenon of radicalization . We have problems . If you are looking at the two enclaves , Spanish enclaves in Moroccan territory , south of Melilla , where apparently at least one of the attackers came from , those areas have had a lot of problems , but mainland Spain has not been hit with the same intensity in terms of numbers of people radicalized , in terms of foreign fighters , as , let 's say , France , or U.K. , or Germany or Belgium . @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# How good are the security systems in place in Spain where the individuals that might have been behind @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have a radar keeping track ? @!LORENZO-VIDINO# Since 2004 , Spain has increased its counterterrorism capabilities . Let 's also remember this is a country that has been hit by another form of terrorism , the Basque national terrorism , ETA , for a long , long time . So it is a country that has an experience in dealing with terrorism . Obviously , as any other law enforcement or intelligence throughout Europe or in the United States as well , they ca n't intercept everything , they ca n't monitor everything . They have disrupted quite a few plots over the last few years . There have been hundreds of people been arrested , this , again , in a country that has not seen the levels of mobilization of other European countries . In Barcelona itself , a plot was thwarted last year , pretty sophisticated one . Having said that , obviously , it 's the experience of everybody from Europe to the United States that something always falls through the cracks . we will see over the next few hours whether those individuals who carried @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it is often the case , or not known , what happened , and that 's something we will pull have to see . @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# This particular area is very popular with tourists . But the method of attack now , using a car , using a van , using anything , it 's almost unstoppable. @!LORENZO-VIDINO# It is. you have seen a lot of European countries have put barriers in pedestrian areas . To be honest , I 'm a bit surprised that the city of Barcelona or Spanish authorities have not done that in an area that is hugely popular with tourists . Barcelona is one of the top three destinations for tourists . And Las Ramblas is really the main pedestrian area . So , any time of the day or night , it is flooded with tourists . And the fact that a van could go in , it 's probably something that will need to be discussed in the aftermath of the attack . But , obviously , you ca n't stop everything . You ca n't block city centers . You ca n't close @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Manchester . Or any kind of social life . So , obviously , as any country , and we have seen that in the States as well , certain precautions have been taken , but you can not stop life . You can not militarize our cities . @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# What about the coordination between Interpol , other European countries ? Are they sharing information fast enough between countries to say , you might have a threat here , here are three or four people that just crossed our border into yours ? @!LORENZO-VIDINO# It has gotten much better compared to a few years back . It is not perfect . Interpol does a good job . But there are a lot of limitations in what can be done . And you still have political jealousies , diffidence , even in some cases within individual countries . to some degree , that would apply to Spain . I 'm not saying this is the case right now , but there are political tensions between Catalonia , which wants to be an independent country , and it 's an autonomous region inside @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sometimes , that 's has repercussions also on counterintelligence and intelligence-sharing . Sharing information in real time is problematic at the European level , at the international level . @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# All right , Lorenzo Vidino , who leads the Program on Extremism at George Washington University , thanks so much . @!LORENZO-VIDINO# Thank you . @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# In a series of tweets , President Trump condemned the attack and offered help to the people of Spain . He also raised again a claim that the U.S. Army used bullets dipped in pig 's blood to quell Muslim rebels in the Philippines years ago . The story has been widely debunked . In the day 's other news : Wall Street plunged on news of the Barcelona attack and worries about President Trump 's agenda . The Dow Jones industrial average lost 274 points to close at 21750 . The Nasdaq fell 123 points and the S&P 500 slid 38 . The top U.S. diplomat insisted today that a potential U.S. military response to North Korea is still on the table , that after the president 's chief strategist , Steve Bannon @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ problem . Secretary of State Rex Tillerson responded after he and Defense Secretary Jim Mattis met with their Japanese counterparts in Washington . @!REX-TILLERSON , -U.S# A threat of proportions that none of us like to contemplate has to be backed by strong military consequences if North Korea chooses wrongly . And that is the message that the president has wanted to send to the leadership of North Korea . @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# Meanwhile , the chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff , General Joseph Dunford , said it would be unimaginable to let North Korea have nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles . In Hong Kong , three young activists were sent to prison for leading pro-democracy protests in 2014 . A court sentenced Joshua Wong , Nathan Law , and Alex Chow up to eight months . They helped start the so-called umbrella movement against Chinese curbs on elections . The three appeared outside the court before the sentencing and rallied supporters with a show of defiance . @!JOSHUA-WONG , -Activ# Even though Nathan , Alex and I will be the ones who may get sent to prison immediately for half to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ will never be defeated . Our courage and determination to fight for free elections and democracy will continue in this long-term battle . @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# The activists originally received much lighter sentences , but the court overturned those and imposed harsher penalties . New warnings today about the refugee crisis in South Sudan . The U.N . says one million people have fled to Uganda , with 1,800 more arriving every day to escape civil war . Video from the charity World Vision shows the largest refugee camp in the world , and officials say Uganda is struggling to meet their needs . And back in this country , drug maker Mylan will pay $465 million to settle federal allegations of price-gouging for the EpiPen . The device can stop allergic reactions in emergencies . The Justice Department says Mylan overbilled Medicaid by more than a billion dollars over a decade . Still to come on the " NewsHour " : we talk to leaders of two cities about the controversy of removing Confederate monuments ; what White House strategist Steve Bannon 's recent statements reveal about the Trump agenda ; @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ much more . Now to the fallout from Charlottesville and the spotlight it cast on Confederate monuments . The president spoke out in their defense today , even as the campaign to clear them from public spaces intensified . Statues of Confederate leaders in Baltimore removed in the night . A monument to Confederate soldiers , in Durham , North Carolina , torn down by protesters Monday . Virginia Governor Terry McAuliffe joined in on CBS this morning . @!GOV-TERRY-MCAULIFF# It 's time for these monuments to come down . It 's time for us to move together after what happened in Charlottesville. @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# On Twitter , President Trump lamented the loss of Confederate monuments . " Sad to see the history and culture of our great country being ripped apart with the removal of our beautiful statues and monuments , " he said . And he went on : " Robert E. Lee , Stonewall Jackson . Who 's next , Washington , Jefferson ? So foolish . " But in Durham , demonstrators turned out today to show support for the people arrested in Monday 's incident . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it never should have been there . @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# Protesters rallied in Tampa , Florida , after the local government said residents will have to raise money on their own to remove a Confederate monument there . The cries for action echoed in Congress , with House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi saying in a statement : " The Confederate statues in the halls of Congress have always been reprehensible . " A spokesman for Republican House Speaker Paul Ryan said it 's up to each state to decide whose statues will represent it in the Capitol . Back in Charlottesville , hundreds gathered for a vigil last night at the University of Virginia . Plans for the march were spread by word of mouth . The crowd walked the same route the white supremacists had taken . @!JERRY-CONNOR , -Vigi# We 're here to take back the lawn for this student generation , but all the previous and all the future generations of students who have walked the lawn . The lawn stands for liberty , equality , justice and freedom . @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# But Governor McAuliffe suggested President Trump should stay @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to come here to continue on with the speeches he 's given the last couple of days . @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# The president , in turn , denied equating white nationalists with counterprotesters , and he tweeted that the news media -- quote -- " totally misrepresent what I say about hate , bigotry , et cetera . " He also dismissed Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina as publicity-seeking after Graham accused him of stoking tensions . But Republican Senator Bob Corker of Tennessee went further today . He charged the president has not demonstrated the stability and competence needed for the White House . Late today , President Trump decided to abandon a planned council of advisers on infrastructure . We turn now for a closer look at the challenges cities have faced when trying to deal not only with controversial statues , but also the backlash that can bring protesters into the streets . We spoke to two people who deal directly with these issues . Jim Gray is mayor of Lexington , Kentucky . Tonight , the rMDNMCity Council there is debating how to handle their Confederate @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ meeting began . And Lieutenant Ryan Lee is the executive officer of the Police Bureau Rapid Response Team of Portland , Oregon , where violent protests erupted earlier this summer . Gentlemen , welcome to you both . Mayor Jim Gray , this is something that your city may be facing sometime soon . It 's not exactly the same parallel , but there are Confederate monuments that you have wanted to move and relocate , and there 's some tension about that . @!JIM-GRAY , -Mayor-of# Yes , that 's right , Hari . And for more than a year now , we have examined this issue . And on Saturday , with the regrettable and tragic events in Charlottesville , I made the decision to accelerate the putting before the City Council a resolution to relocate these monuments . And that 's because it was the right thing to do . It is the right thing to do . These monuments today stand on really sacred -- what amounts to sacred ground , ground where slaves were once auctioned , were sold into slavery , men , women @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the right thing to do to remove and to relocate these statues in a place where the full context and the full story of the tragedy of the Civil war could be shared and -- shared and taught . @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# Mayor Gray , staying with you for a second , how is your police department preparing for the possibility that people who want to tear the statue down want to make Lexington another example ? @!JIM-GRAY# Well , our police department is disciplined and prepared , but let me tell you about the requirements , the legal requirements . The law in Kentucky requires that these statues , any movement of these statues first be put before what 's called the Kentucky Military Heritage Commission . So , within the law today , we are operating within that law . Our police are prepared . We are a peaceful city . We are a city that 's a giving and compassionate city , but we 're also disciplined and prepared . @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# Lieutenant Ryan Lee , your city faced some very difficult protests . How did you get through them @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we 're approaching these situations to understand that there is an exercise , a lawful exercise of First Amendment rights . And while I may personally find the content of somebody 's speech personally reprehensible , my role as a police officer is to facility that lawful and peaceful expression of somebody 's First Amendment rights , to try and help navigate for those people that wish to express lawfully their free speech , to try and give them a platform for it , while at the same time weighing out those governmental interests to keep the peace , to maintain law and order and to meet the public 's expectation of what they want from their police force . It 's not an easy one-solution-fits-all . For us , it required reaching out to a variety of organizers from all sides of the political spectrum , trying to get them to self-police , and then developing plans in place to keep public order if necessary . @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# Mayor Gray , those are great suggestions that Lieutenant Lee has . Is that what your police department is doing ? Tell @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ planning these things through . @!JIM-GRAY# Sure . Well , our police chief has reached out to Charlottesville , to those who are responsible in Charlottesville to try to gain lessons learned there . Our police department is often set up as one of the finest in the country , an example in the country for its discipline , for its preparedness , dealing with crises , dealing with demands routinely . So , we 're prepared . So , we 're reaching out to state and federal , also , of course , local jurisdictions who may provide help . And they 're doing a commendable job today of preparing . But as the lieutenant said , this country founded -- one of its , of course , founding principles is the right to free speech . But that -- when it extends over into hatred and violence and those expressions in a violent way , of course , then that 's when we need to be prepared . And we are . @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# Mayor Gray , where is that threshold for you ? One of the most striking @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ were people fighting right in front of those officers . Do you have instructions to your police department that say , get involved when X happens or Y happens ? @!JIM-GRAY# You know , that 's the responsibility of our police chief , our command unit of our police . The lieutenant knows those protocols well . We expect to deal with these issues , should they emerge . We expect and we will deal with them responsibly , but we will deal with them effectively and in a disciplined way . @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# Lieutenant Lee , looking back at what happened in Charlottesville , I 'm not asking you to armchair quarterback , but if this happened in your city , what are the guidelines ? What is the strategy that you say ? I realize there are case-by-case decisions that the officers have to make , but there seem to be very different approaches the departments take to try to cordon people off into different physical spaces , so that they ca n't clash as easily , maybe use other tools like bicycles and so forth . What do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we do try and cordon people off as appropriate . We can put place reasonable time , place and manner restrictions upon free speech , if necessary . We have to allow for some alternative form of expression . So , the ability to set particularly opposing groups apart , whether it 's through fencing , whether it 's through physically locating officers between them , that 's an option . It 's a possibility . What is legally possible from state to state and city to city changes , so some of the things that may be both legally acceptable here in the city of Portland and socially acceptable , with the expectations of the public , may vary from place to place . So the options that were on the table for Charlottesville may not be the same for us . When we look at these groups , there 's often sort of a mistake , where people see -- they just see it as a dichotomy . They look and they see what they think are homogeneous groups . This group represents one side , and another @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ crowds , we have learned over the years is that there are a variety of like-minded clusters that sort of form out a plot point for a spectrum of opinion . And so it 's recognizing those people in those groups that plot as wanting to carry out a lawful expression of their First Amendment rights , trying to communicate and coordinate with them , and trying to get them to sort of outgroup or excise those that really are just seeking a violent confrontation , so if the police can address the conduct there and keep it safe for all parties to express their free speech . @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# Lieutenant Lee , is it more complicated when it is groups of protesters attacking each other vs. when you know there is one specific group that 's out there ? @!LT-RYAN-LEE# It makes the equation more complicated , but , ultimately , when we 're dealing with these violent protests , these violent confrontations , we 're really looking at conduct , not content . It does change the equation , that , sometimes , we will have events where the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have to be concerned with sort of a third party in multiple different groups who are really -- again , when we 're talking about the conduct , there are those people in those groups that are seeking violence . And , unfortunately , there are times that that violence can be directed towards somebody of an opposing political view or simply directed towards the police . It makes it a more complex equation to work through , but , ultimately , we 're dealing with conduct . @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# All right , Lieutenant Ryan lee of Portland , Oregon , and Mayor Jim Gray of Lexington , Kentucky , thank you both for joining us tonight . @!LT-RYAN-LEE# Thank you . @!JIM-GRAY# Thank you . @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# Now to a man often at the center of controversy in the Trump White House , whose outsized influence is often discussed , yet he is rarely heard from . Our John Yang is here to help fill in the picture . @!JOHN-YANG# Hari , earlier today , I spoke with a journalist who got an unexpected phone call from Stephen Bannon , President @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ co-founder and co-editor of " The American Prospect , " a liberal magazine . He 's also a professor of social policy at Brandeis University . We were also joined by Joshua Green , a senior national correspondent for Bloomberg Businessweek and author of the bestselling book " Devil 's Bargain : Steve Bannon , Donald Trump , and the Storming of the Presidency . " I began by asking Kuttner about how his conversation with Bannon came about . @!ROBERT-KUTTNER , -Co# Well , I got an e-mail from someone at the White House who says that Mr. Bannon would like me to come into the White House and meet with him . So , I double-checked the e-mail address , which looked legit , and I called the guy , and he seemed legit . And I said , look , I 'm on vacation , but this is kind of a fast-moving story , so I would be happy to speak with him by phone , if he would like to . And what had happened was , he had read a column I had written the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ have been so passive in taking on illegal Chinese trade practices , that Beijing now has a huge amount of leverage over us , where we want them to help us with North Korea , but the price for that is we have got to fold our hand in terms of taking a hard line with them on trade . So , Bannon apparently read that and felt he had a soul mate , and did n't take the precaution of making clear whether we were on background or on the record , and called me up and sounded as if we were soul mates and best friends . And it was like I was part of a private strategy session with Stephen Bannon , which was really quite bizarre . And about two or three minutes in , I said to myself , oh , wow , he is not putting this off the record . And I 'm certainly not going to mention it if he does n't mention it . And , of course , the ground rules are that when a government official calls you and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on the record , the default setting is that it 's on the record . And so , 25 minutes later , I have this astonishing interview , which I recorded . @!JOHN-YANG# And this was the first time you had ever talked to him ? @!ROBERT-KUTTNER# Absolutely . And he made it sound like he 'd been reading my stuff for years and thought it was great , you know , the usual kind of flattery stuff . @!JOHN-YANG# Josh Green , this is Mr. Kuttner 's first time talking to Steve Bannon . You have been talking to him on and off since 2011 , How does this ring true to you ? Does this ring true to you ? @!JOSHUA-GREEN , -Bloo# Absolutely . In fact , my introduction to Steve Bannon was much the same as Bob Kuttner 's . I had written an article about Sarah Palin . And , all of a sudden , one day , out of the blue , I get a phone call from a staffer , saying , I represent a guy named Steve Bannon , who at the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ He said , Mr. Bannon read your latest article and he would really like to get together and talk with you . In this case , it was at a movie screening for Bannon 's film . And I met him . And he 's a very interesting , smart , charismatic guy who had a distinct brand of politics that I thought was interesting and worth writing about . And so I got to know him and basically have been interviewing him ever since . @!JOHN-YANG# Bob , you mentioned two bits that he talked about . He talked about contradicting the president 's strategy on North Korea . He said , " Until somebody solves the part of the equation that shows me that 10 million people in Seoul do n't die in the first 30 minutes from conventional weapons , I do n't know what you 're talking about . There 's no military solution here . They got us . " What was your reaction when you heard that ? @!ROBERT-KUTTNER# Well , I thought he was right on the merits , but the first thing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's view , certainly not Donald Trump 's view .. So , I said to myself , huh , he 's being rather incautious and he shows no felt need to defend his president , and he 's just speaking his mind . And it certainly is not the president 's view . @!JOHN-YANG# He also talked about what he called ethno-nationalism . He called them losers . " It 's a fringe element . the media plays it up too much and we have got to help crush it , help crush it more . These guys are a collection of clowns . " @!ROBERT-KUTTNER# That was completely disingenuous , because , of course , he , as much as anybody else in America , is responsible for assembling this collection of clowns as a political force . And people like Bannon and like Trump , they say what they need to say , and if they contradict themselves today relative to what they said yesterday , well , that 's how you do it . And if he 's trying to ingratiate himself with somebody who 's an @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , " he 's going to say what he needs to say to try and persuade me that he 's not such a bad guy . But you have to take that with a ton of salt . And it 's the usual dog-whistle stuff , where the alt-right is not going to think that Steve Bannon somehow has had a deathbed conversion and he now thinks they 're bad guys . @!JOHN-YANG# Josh , what do you think was going on here when he said those things ? @!JOSHUA-GREEN# that he was trying to impress a credentialed journalist and somebody he admires . He and I -- Bannon and I had similar conversations in the research for my book . And I asked him , because he 's often charged with anti-Semitism and white nationalism . I said , well , if you do n't believe this stuff , why is it that you make common cause with these guys ? And his answer was that , while the types of you see marching in Charlottesville are -- he called them freaks and goobers to me , he called @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ collectively , they represented a political force that he thought he could script into his larger America-first nationalism , into Trumpian politics , and use them , essentially manipulate them as tools to carry out his political goals . @(CROSSTALK) @!JOHN-YANG# Bob , he ended the conversation with you by saying that he was -- wanted to see you at the White House after Labor Day to continue discussion of China and trade . Do you think that 's going to happen , Bob ? @!ROBERT-KUTTNER# You know , as long as Donald Trump is doubling down on the alliance with the far right , Bannon 's job may be safe , because he needs Bannon to guide him through that strategy . So , I am certainly not going to predict whether Bannon 's job is safe , but the point is , a lot of other people in the White House may be furious at Bannon , but there 's only one person who counts . And that 's Donald Trump . @!JOSHUA-GREEN# I agree . And if you listen to what Donald Trump had said in the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the sort of thing that Bannon says and believes , even though it 's something that is galling to Republican elected officials , to ordinary Americans , to many advisers within Trump 's own White House who are leaking to reporters their dismay and disgust , but do n't have the courage to come out and say it publicly or do what they ought to do and resign from their position in the White House , if they do n't agree with what Donald Trump is saying . @!JOHN-YANG# Joshua Green , Robert Kuttner , you both have fascinating insights into this guy Steve Bannon . Thank you very much for joining us. @!JOSHUA-GREEN# Thank you . @!ROBERT-KUTTNER# Thank you . @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# Stay with us . Coming up on the " NewsHour " : why the U.S. has one of the worst maternal mortality rates in the developed world ; a Brief But Spectacular take on writing compelling stories ; and a World War II veteran returns a Japanese soldier 's flag 73 years later . But first : As more and more shopping is done online , what will @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ retail industry ? Our economics correspondent , Paul Solman , takes a look . It 's part of our series Making Sense , which airs Thursdays on the " NewsHour . " @!JENNIFER-RICHTER , -# This is a great , great , great basic black top . @!PAUL-SOLMAN# This summer , Jennifer Richter opened her own clothing boutique online . @!JENNIFER-RICHTER# This is just the future of retail . The brick-and- mortar stores , they 're just going to keep trimming the fat and keep eliminating positions . @!PAUL-SOLMAN# Richter speaks from experience . In January , she was one of over 10,000 employees laid off from struggling department store chain Macy's. @!JENNIFER-RICHTER# It just spiraled out of control with traffic down , people not coming in , online sales going up . And it just happened really fast . @!PAUL-SOLMAN# Richter worked at Macy 's in Manhattan as one of 14 regional directors for stylists . Every one of her colleagues was axed . So , far as you know , 12 out of 14 still looking for work half-a-year later ? @!JENNIFER-RICHTER# Yes . And I was with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are 10 years- plus . Some of them had been with the company for 30 years . And when you get to the level we were at , it 's harder and harder . It 's scary . It really is. @!PAUL-SOLMAN# Unable to find work at another retailer , Richter is going it alone . @!JENNIFER-RICHTER# Really just using Instagram , social media to really market myself , and instead of fighting online , like I did for so many years , I 'm just embracing it and joining them in doing what I feel there 's a need in the market for . @!PAUL-SOLMAN# As you have surely heard by now , the growth of e- commerce is wreaking havoc on traditional retail and its work force ; 5,300 store closings were announced in the first half of 2017 , empty storefronts you have probably seen somewhere near you . More painful , the 64,000 job cuts said to be in the works . Mark Cohen runs the retail studies program at Columbia Business School . @!MARK-COHEN , -Columb# The retail worker is in a world of hurt @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ population of the United States , these are folks who are often tethered by way of employment to a shopping mall . There 's no pathway from a part-time job in a mall , in a specialty store or department store to some other form of employment that 's local and available . @!PAUL-SOLMAN# Official statistics show the retail sector shedding only 26,000 or so jobs in the past 12 months , but Cohen says that may understate the case . @!MARK-COHEN# it 's going to be difficult to pinpoint the employment status of the folks being laid off . Many of them are part-time employees , so they do n't necessarily get captured in the employment numbers . @!PAUL-SOLMAN# Malcolm Skoop Hovis worked at old-time retailer Kmart. @!MALCOLM-SKOOP-HOVI# Kmart got to compete with Wal- Mart , Target , Walgreens , with Amazon doing deliveries now , so it 's too much competition for Kmart. @!PAUL-SOLMAN# Hovis was hired as a temp at this Kmart outside Washington months before it closed . @!MALCOLM-SKOOP-HOVI# Half the store is empty . The inventory is getting smaller . And you can come in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and Kmart stores are scheduled to close this year . Sears Holding Company , which also owns both Sears and Kmart , has shed some 180,000 jobs in the last seven years . Mark Cohen was once a Sears executive . @!MARK-COHEN# I spent seven years at Sears , both here in the United States and in Canada . They are hanging on by a fingernail , at best . The genre that was legacy retail is , for the most part , in terrible trouble . @!PAUL-SOLMAN# The main reason will not surprise you . One-eighth of all retail sales were transacted online last year , up 16 percent over just the year before , more folks shopping on computers and phones , fewer driving to the malls , some of which have literally gone to seed . There 's another threat to retail jobs as well , automation , as in cashier-less convenience stores , like those being tested in China and closer to home . So , toll the knell for jobs in retail ? Not just yet . @!MICHAEL-MANDEL , -Ch# Since 2007 , we have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!PAUL-SOLMAN# Michael Mandel , chief economic strategist at the Progressive Policy Institute , thinks online may spawn more jobs than it whacks. @!MICHAEL-MANDEL# We have had a small decline in brick-and-mortar retail . We have had a large increase in e-commerce jobs . A lot of them are jobs in fulfillment centers. @!PAUL-SOLMAN# Mandel argues that much of the growth in warehouse employment is actually tied to online retail . @!MICHAEL-MANDEL# I have been able to track these jobs using government data down to the county level . And you can see , when a fulfillment center opens up in the county , you have a big jump in what the government classifies as warehouse jobs . @!PAUL-SOLMAN# On a recent morning in hot summer Baltimore , thousands of job-seekers lined up outside an Amazon fulfillment center for a one-day jobs fair held at a dozen sites across the country to recruit 50,000 workers to pick , pack , and ship orders . @!PAUL-SOLMAN# Amazon 's Lauren Lynch : @!LAUREN-LYNCH , -Amaz# Here in Baltimore , we 're looking to fill 1,200 roles . A few years ago , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Now we have got more than 70 , and we need associates to help us fill those orders . @!PAUL-SOLMAN# OK , maybe every retailer now calls its employees associates these days . But no matter what they do , more than 382,000 employees work for Amazon worldwide , and the number is growing . In January , the company promised to create 100,000 more jobs in the U.S. alone . @!CANDACE-TAYLOR , -Re# Amazon 's going to rule the world soon . @(LAUGHTER) @!PAUL-SOLMAN# Single mom Candace Taylor got a job offer after almost a year of unemployment . @!CANDACE-TAYLOR# I 'm a little older , and for me to have a company that 's stable and to have something that can become a career is exactly what I need . @!PAUL-SOLMAN# Also , the above-minimum-wage pay and benefits , health insurance , retirement , are better than at the mall . @!DAMION-BROWN , -Reta# They say they 're starting off at $13 an hour . @!PAUL-SOLMAN# Damion Brown makes $10 an hour at Wal-Mart. @!DAMION-BROWN# Wal-Mart , it 's OK . It 's not -- I would @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ getting the pay , right ? You might get the hours . You are not going get the payout that 's great . You 're not going to get paid time off . @!PAUL-SOLMAN# And Michael Mandel says it 's right there in the data . @!MICHAEL-MANDEL# On average , pay in fulfillment centers is about 30 percent higher than pay in brick-and-mortar retail in the same area . Not only that . Retail jobs tend to be part-time , maybe not paying benefits . The fulfillment centers have a lot of full-time jobs , have the benefits . They seem to be better jobs , as far as I can figure out . @!PAUL-SOLMAN# D'Angelo Bryan , who 's been packing shipments at the Baltimore fulfillment center for a couple months now , even convinced his friends to apply . @!D'ANGELO-BRYAN , -Re# I got experience in just about a little bit of everything , and so far , I would definitely say Amazon is the best job that I have had so far . @!PAUL-SOLMAN# But let 's not romanticize here . The work is grueling. @!D'ANGELO-BRYAN# We @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ nonstop . The first couple of weeks , it was like , I do n't know how people do it . Being on your feet for 10 hours a shift , 44 hours a week , sometimes 50 , you know , after those first two weeks , it 's like , whew. @!PAUL-SOLMAN# Now , warehouse work is dominated by men , while the retail economy is losing jobs that are mostly held by women . And fulfillment center jobs simply may not be feasible for laid-off brick-and- mortar workers for a host of reasons , among them , says Cohen : @!MARK-COHEN# These are folks who need flexible scheduling and are not able to commute 50 or 100 miles to an Amazon fulfillment center that 's open somewhere in the vicinity . @!PAUL-SOLMAN# But to Mandel , the net effect is positive , especially given America 's ever-widening inequality gap . @!MICHAEL-MANDEL# The rise of the fulfillment center jobs is having the effect of reducing inequality , because what you 're doing is you 're talking about raising the wages for people with a high school education by @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ takes over store jobs , though , wo n't robots eventually displace the pickers and packers too ? Amazon already uses robots to move goods around . Not to worry , says Amazon 's Lynch : The company will simply keep growing and have to add jobs . @!LAUREN-LYNCH# Having robots in our fulfillment centers means that we can have more inventory , which means we need more associates to help us fulfill all that inventory , all those customer orders . @!PAUL-SOLMAN# But for how long will Amazon and others rely on humans to pick and pack ? And so we end with Cartman , a robot built to pick and stow items in a warehouse . It recently won a robotics prize sponsored by Amazon . For the " PBS NewsHour , " this is economics correspondent Paul Solman. @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# Next week , Paul will look at how retailers both on- and off-line are responding to shifting consumer habits . And on our Web site , the co-founder of eyeglass chain Warby Parker gives us his take on the transformation of retail . That 's at PBS.org/NewsHour . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and nurses have worked hard and successfully to reduce the U.S. infant mortality rate in recent decades . What 's less known and less understood is the rise in maternal mortality , mothers dying after pregnancy or from childbirth-related causes . Renee Montagne of NPR and Nina Martin of ProPublica have teamed up for a series of reports on the subject . Their latest installments came out today . Judy Woodruff recently spoke with them both . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# Renee Montagne , Nina Martin , thank you very much for talking with us . So , Americans think we have the best health care , medical care in the world . How could it be , Renee Montagne , that we have this problem ? @!RENEE-MONTAGNE , -NP# Well , there are a lot of reasons . And there are some underlying reasons that most people would recognize . And that is -- that is people , low-income women , women of color , women in rural settings have less access to the best possible medical care . But what we 're finding and what the numbers are showing is that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ anyone . I mean , we 're finding women who had -- who had what would have thought to have been the best of care . @!NINA-MARTIN , -ProPu# Right . And that 's part of the problem is that a lot of doctors , a lot of nurses , a lot of hospitals think that maternal mortality is something that happens in other countries ; it 's a thing of the past in the U.S. And so , basically , there are two issues that have arisen . One is that there 's just a lack of recognition , a lack of awareness about what life- threatening complications look like . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# And on the part of doctors , hospitals ? @!NINA-MARTIN# All . All of the above , nurses as well , and patients a lot of times , because patients are not necessarily educated . We do n't want to worry the patients . And so , when an emergency does happen , the next thing that sort of kicks in is that hospitals and doctors and nurses often are not prepared for the emergency , so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# There has been a lot of focus on making sure babies are born healthy . @!RENEE-MONTAGNE# Exactly . One of the things that we came across in our different -- in recent conversations , Bill Callaghan of the CDC , who has spent his life studying this , he had an article from 1950 that declared victory over maternal mortality . Women did n't die in childbirth in great numbers anymore , they said . And , basically , that was -- you know , that sophisticated journal was the beginning of an emphasis on saving babies . And , of course , babies do die in much greater numbers . They are more vulnerable . But , basically , everybody turned their sights to the wonderful ways you could save babies , new technology and focusing -- neonatal units in the next 20 or so years became part of a good hospital , a good birthing center . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# You both have done so much reporting on this . The series , of course , is running over many months . We have a clip right now @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ neonatal nurse , so she worked in health care . But she ended up with either a lack of diagnosis , the wrong diagnosis . And this is a clip as she 's going into surgery , but where her condition has severely deteriorated . Let 's listen . @!DR-LARRY-BLOOMSTEI# So , they took her to the operating room , and the neurosurgeon operated for , about four hours , and when he came out , he said that she 's still alive . She 's basically on life support , but she 's brain-dead . So , at that point , we decided to withdraw . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# So this was Lauren Bloomstein , Nina , who -- as we said , a nurse in New Jersey . They thought everything was fine . She delivered the baby , and then things went terribly wrong . @!NINA-MARTIN# Right . So , Lauren Bloomstein is an example of the kind of person that everyone assumes does n't die in childbirth or pregnancy-related causes in the U.S. She had great health care . She was a nurse herself . Her husband , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . He was with her in the delivery room . He basically never left her side , except to take the baby up to the nursery . She came in with a condition called preeclampsia , that is , pregnancy-induced hypertension . She had not had it . And she came in and her symptoms were not recognized from the moment she came to the hospital . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# Are there lessons being learned , Renee , by hospitals , by medical care providers around the country as a result of situations like this ? @!RENEE-MONTAGNE# There is something of a movement , in fact , among concerned medical professionals to actually address these problems . But the lessons in the individual situation often come from the mother dying . And then that hospital may rethink what it 's doing . The doctors may learn a lesson . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# So , it 's a lack of training ? @!NINA-MARTIN# It 's a lack of training , and a lack of education and a lack of recognition in some cases , but it 's also a lack of having a set of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ happens , so , a hemorrhage , for example , or , in Lauren 's case , preeclampsia . There 's a very specific set of things that doctors and hospitals and nurses should be -- start to do immediately as soon as they recognize the symptoms . But , often , those standards are n't even in place in very good hospitals , until it 's too late and until the next time . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# But , again , it just seems stunning . Again , we think of the United States , Renee , being -- having the most advanced medical care in the world . How could it be that the medical team who are working with women giving birth do n't -- are n't prepared to deal with all these circumstances ? @!RENEE-MONTAGNE# Well , when you see these stories , when you hear these stories , you actually ask that question every time . They 're almost unbelievable . But the reality is , hospitals have protocols , but they 're not necessarily well-practiced . They 're not consistent . There are not lists for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that means the other . You do n't think about it . It 's a very -- it 's kind of deeply embedded in the American medical system among obstetricians and even obstetrical nurses . @!NINA-MARTIN# And smaller and rural hospitals are less likely to have these protocols in place , because they 're smaller . They have had fewer less deliveries . And so they are less likely to encounter a life- threatening complication , so that 's another problem . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# We started out , also talking about whether there were other factors , socioeconomic status , whether women of -- whether this was a planned pregnancy or not , whether the mom took care of herself during the pregnancy . Renee , are those -- even the race , age of the mother , are those not factors that you found ? @!RENEE-MONTAGNE# To hear what people say -- that researchers will say is , those are all factors , and they are all there , and , to some extent , they 're recognized in women who have high-risk pregnancies , and that 's recognized . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you have hypertensive -- some kind of hypertensive disease to begin with , those things are watched if you 're in a good hospital . And , of course , the American medical system is such that there are enough people not in good hospitals . So , yes , these are factors , but they 're -- as researchers will say , they 're not the reason women die . Women die from these conditions , these complications . And there is a CDC Foundation analysis that has it that 60 percent of all these deaths could be prevented . @!NINA-MARTIN# The underlying conditions that women die from are not age . They 're not -- it 's not being obese or being African-American , although African-American women do die at two to three times the rate of white women . It 's heart disease , some sort of heart-related condition , or a hemorrhage , or preeclampsia , or an infection that is not diagnosed . @!RENEE-MONTAGNE# Or treated well . @!NINA-MARTIN# Or treated well . Exactly . @!RENEE-MONTAGNE# I mean , these are things they 're dying @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ die of them . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF# A wakeup call in so many ways . Renee Montagne , Nina Martin , thank you very much . @!RENEE-MONTAGNE# Thank you . @!NINA-MARTIN# Thank you . @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# Now to another in our Brief But Spectacular series , where we ask people to describe their passions . Tonight , we hear from journalist and novelist Calvin Trillin . His book " Jackson , 1964 : And Other Dispatches from Fifty Years of Reporting on Race in America " became available in paperback last month . @!CALVIN-TRILLIN , -Au# And Other Dispatches from Fifty Years of Reporting on Race in America " : I was sort of between projects a little while ago , and I thought , this would be a good opportunity to re-catalogue my collection of Civil War artifacts . But I do n't have a collection of Civil War artifacts , or any other collections . This is time to put that harpsichord kit together . I do n't have a harpsichord kit . I do n't have a golf game to polish . So , I suppose it 's just writing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ years , I did a piece every three weeks for " The New Yorker " that was about 3,000 words . " The New Yorker " did n't require what newspaper people sometimes call the nut graph , which is the paragraph that tells you why this story is important . The billboard paragraph in some of my stories would have to say something like , all over the country , disreputable people in small towns are killing each other , something like that . I mean , I did n't have one of those . So , I was only interested in whether it was an interesting story . I did n't know much about " The New Yorker " when I was a kid . I had one cousin who took " The New Yorker , " and she was considered rather strange . I definitely backed into journalism . most people of my era backed into journalism because they did n't want to go to law school or they were trying to write a novel and could n't figure out how to do it . I knew @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ dexterity or mathematics skills . I have always said that mathematics was my worst subject . I was never able to persuade the teacher that many of my answers were meant ironically . I took a writing course in college that had those usual mottoes , like -- like show , do n't tell and all that sort of thing . And one of them was , individualize by specific detail . I thought that was the most useful one , particularly in attempts at humor . Humor is sort of indefensible . If the woman in the second row does n't laugh , it is n't funny . That 's one reason there 's no way to sort of try to imagine your audience when you 're writing . you could only satisfy yourself . My wife , Alice , who died in 2001 was the person I showed rough drafts to , the only person . What all writers want to hear if they show somebody something is , brilliant , do n't change a word , even if you know it 's sort of rough . Obviously @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Alice died , I was going over the galleys of a novel about parking in New York , a subject so silly that I would 've hesitated to submit the book to a publisher , if she had n't , somewhat to her surprise , liked it . When the novel was published , the dedication said , " I wrote this for Alice . Actually , I wrote everything for Alice . " My name is Calvin Trillin , and this is my Brief But Spectacular take on my life and writing . @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# You can watch more Brief But Spectacular videos online at PBS.org/NewsHour/Brief . Now to our " NewsHour " Shares , something that caught our eye that may be of interest to you , too . A 93-year-old World War II veteran traveled more than 5,000 miles from his Montana home this month to return a treasured keepsake to a grateful Japanese family . The " NewsHour " ' s Julia Griffin explains . @!JULIA-GRIFFIN# Warm temperatures and rainy skies greeted Marvin Strombo as he returned to Japan this week for the first time in 73 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ elite sniper scouter with the 2nd Marine Division . Alone on the Japanese line during the 1944 invasion of Saipan , he came across the body of a dead Japanese soldier . @!MARVIN-STROMBO , -Wo# I saw a Japanese soldier laying there . And I knew he was an officer because he had a sword on . @!JULIA-GRIFFIN# But Strombo also noticed something else , a customary flag the soldier carried , known as a yosegaki hinomaru , that bore 180 signatures of his family and village members . Strombo knew such flags were given to departing soldiers as a symbol of good luck and support . @!MARVIN-STROMBO# I finally realized , if I did n't take it , somebody else would have , and it would be lost forever . So , the only way I could do that , as I reached out to take the flag , I made a promise to him that , someday , I would try to return it . @!JULIA-GRIFFIN# For decades , the soldier 's identity remained unknown , until five years ago , when Strombo reached out to the Obon @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ souvenirs . The group identified the soldier as Sadao Yasue , of Higashishirakawa , Japan . And on Tuesday , Strombo made good on his promise to return the ancestral heirloom , during an emotional ceremony with Yasue 's surviving brother and two sisters . @!MARVIN-STROMBO# It was a very emotional moment , really . I saw that the older sister -- her holding that flag about broke my heart . And I have fulfilled a promise , which I 'm happy about . I could see that it made them quite happy . So , that 's the main thing . @!JULIA-GRIFFIN# The poignant event between one-time enemies and now friends coincided with the Japanese Obon holiday , when families return to their hometowns to remember departed loved ones . For the " PBS NewsHour , " I 'm Julia Griffin . @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# On the " NewsHour " online right now : A total solar eclipse will sweep across the entire continental United States on Monday , and anticipation could n't be higher . If you plan to watch , wherever you are , we give you five things @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Martha 's Vineyard , Harvard University 's Hutchins Center hosted a forum examining race and racism in the age of Trump . Coming after events in Charlottesville and the reactions to it , Republican political commentator Armstrong Williams challenged the president . @!ARMSTRONG-WILLIAMS# When you see what happened in Charlottesville , and clearly someone with arming and guns and batons there , and you know the history of the Ku Klux Klan and white supremacy , it 's just common sense for any American , that you would come together and condemn that in the harshest of terms , and give no indication that whatever they 're doing has any righteousness to it , any moral turpitude to it . And for the president to have taken three days -- I speak as a human being , not as a conservative and not as a liberal -- it was embarrassing , it was n't leadership , and the president should give no energy , no second thought to the fact that these neo-Nazis and these white supremacists have any place in American society , and what they represented , and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ African-American , whether you 're Jewish , just plain common sense . The president needs to grow up and lead . @!HARI-SREENIVASAN# You can view the entire forum on our Web site , PBS.org/NewsHour . And that 's the " NewsHour " for tonight . I 'm Hari Sreenivasan . Join us online and again here tomorrow evening . For all of us at the " PBS NewsHour , " thank you , and good night .

@@4172441 @!JOHN-MACKEY# Venture capitalists are like hitchhikers with credit cards . And as long as you take them to where they want to go , they will help you pay for the gas . But if you do n't take them where they want to go , they will try to hijack the car and throw you out on the side of the road . So I did not trust the VCs . I liked them . I did n't trust them . I did not want them to take control of the company , so I thought we 're going to go public and then we 're going to get the hitchhikers out of the car . @!GUY-RAZ# From NPR , it 's HOW I BUILT THIS , a show about innovators , entrepreneurs , idealists and the stories behind the movements they built . @!GUY-RAZ# I 'm Guy Raz . And on today 's show , how life in a vegetarian commune inspired John Mackey to start Whole Foods and with it , an organic food revolution that changed the way Americans shop for groceries . @!GUY-RAZ# If you happened to step into an organic food co-op in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ walk past aisles and aisles of bulk bins full of beans and brown rice and dried fruit . There were no big brands , no Stonyfield Farms or Nature 's Path , no Amy 's or Annie 's . And the people who shopped in the stores , they were among a teeny tiny handful of Americans who even knew what quinoa or kale were . And they were mostly counterculture types , hippies , back to nature folks , my mom . And yet , all of these people were at the leading edge of a food revolution that would start to sweep the country in the 1990s . And that revolution was largely propelled by Whole Foods . And even though that company inspires pretty strong opinions - you 've got the fanboys and the haters - there 's no denying that it 's had a monster-sized impact on the way we eat . But the person who is partly responsible for this revolution ? Well , here is what John Mackey grew up eating . @!JOHN-MACKEY# I would start the day with Cocoa Puffs and milk , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , I mean , hamburgers for lunch with nothing on it , certainly no vegetables on the hamburgers . Maybe fried chicken for dinner or macaroni and cheese out of a can or a box . @!GUY-RAZ# Yum . @!JOHN-MACKEY# This was the era where stay-home moms were so thrilled about the great innovations that could happen like TV dinners . @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . @!JOHN-MACKEY# You could - frozen TV dinners that you could just pop in the oven and voila , you 'd have a meal for your family . @!GUY-RAZ# Where were you in life when you first discovered food , like , real food ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# Yeah . My food consciousness awakening really occurred when I was about 23 . And I moved into this vegetarian co-op in Austin called Prana House . I was definitely interested in the counterculture . I 'm - I thought I 'd meet interesting women as well , so I thought it was a - I was an adventurer . @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . @!JOHN-MACKEY# I expanded my diet tremendously . I did become a vegetarian . Then I became the food @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ get a job . And I went to work for a small natural food store in Austin called the Good Food Company . And wow , I 'd like - I was launched on my path . I loved everything about natural and organic foods . I liked cooking . I liked retailing it . And I thought this is something I could really be passionate about . @!GUY-RAZ# OK . At this point in your life , you did not like - you did n't have a college degree , right ? You kind of dropped out of college . @!JOHN-MACKEY# Yeah . So when I was about 20 years old , I was on track to get a degree in philosophy from the University of Texas , but I ran into a course that was a required course that I needed to complete . I did n't like the course . I did n't like the books that I was required to read . I did n't like the professor . And then one day the battle was over , and I stood up and the book I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ground . I said , I 'm not going to read this book . @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . @!JOHN-MACKEY# And then I just began to read books and take courses that I was interested in . So I ended up with 120 hours of electives that were just courses I was interested in , but I took control of my life . I began to be authentic and true to myself . And that led me into this whole natural food world . @!GUY-RAZ# So when you - when you - so you show up into this co-op . You do n't have a college degree . It 's - I 'm assuming it 's kind of like a hippie type of place , right ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# Yeah . It was definitely a - it was a hippie place . @!GUY-RAZ# So your parents are super excited and proud of the decisions you 've made at this point in your life at 23 ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# No . My parents were very worried , very unhappy . @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . @!JOHN-MACKEY# The very last conversation I ever had with my mother in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to go back to school and make something of myself . And I was a grocer . I was a hippie grocer . And I - she said , I know you have a fine mind , John , why are you wasting it as a grocer ? Go be a doctor or a lawyer , or do something with your life that makes a difference . And I said , I 'm doing something with my life that makes a difference . She said , you 're just a grocer . And I said , Mom , grocers are great ( laughter ) . @!GUY-RAZ# So what was it like ? Like , what was it like working at that health food store ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# I loved it . I mean , the store was n't very big . It was only a couple thousand square feet , but the retail business was really fun . I mean , first of all , I 'm surrounded by food , which I 'm fascinated by , with other people that I 'm working with . You know , there are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and they 're also equally interested in food . They 're people that you get to know over time in a small store with not , you know , not that many customers . And you develop relationships with people and you serve them . And I just thought that was , like , super fun . I knew I can do this . This seems within my realm of competence . And then I 'd worked there about six months . And when I - some - an idea grew in my mind which is this is what I want to do with my life . I want to open - I want to open my own store . I went back to the co-op and talked to my girlfriend Renee . She was four years younger than me , so I was like 23 and she was like 19 . And she got super excited about it . I often wondered if Renee had said that 's a stupid idea , it 'll never work , how my life might be different now . But she was very @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ opening our own store . @!GUY-RAZ# So how did you even - how 'd you even get started ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# Well , that was n't easy . I make a joke about it now that an entrepreneur is a little bit like a panhandler except that they 're selling dreams to people . And we raised the money because we - like most entrepreneurs , friends and family . We thought we needed $50,000 to start the store . And we could only come up with 45 , but we decided we could make do with it . And my initial stake was $10,000 . That 's the most I ever owned of the company , and - 10 of the 45,000 . And I 'd borrowed all of that from my father . @!GUY-RAZ# So with that money , you were able to open up the first Whole Foods ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# Well , the original store was called SaferWay , think Safeway but SaferWay . And truthfully , we were always hoping that maybe Safeway would sue us . It would be good publicity . @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . @!JOHN-MACKEY# @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of them were business classes . No real business experience . Renee did n't have any experience . She was - by the time we opened the store , she was 20 , 21 . And we opened a store in an old house , not even on a busy road . It was just like - we just thought this was a super cool house , so we had a store on the first floor - a vegetarian store . And we had a vegetarian restaurant on the second floor , a cafe . And then we had an office , and we lived on the third floor . @!GUY-RAZ# If you were to walk through SaferWay , what would you see on the shelves ? Was it like bulk products and , like , beans ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# Yep . @!GUY-RAZ# And was there meat ? Was there sugar ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# Yeah . No , there was - so we did n't - we were pretty pure . We did n't sell sugar . We did n't sell meat . We were selling real foods . We were selling @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was a hippie , but we had about - I do n't know - counting the people in the cafe , so a lot of them working part-time , we probably had 20 people working - 15 to 20 people . @!GUY-RAZ# So were you scared ? I mean , you were still a kid . @!JOHN-MACKEY# No . I was n't scared at all . @!GUY-RAZ# You thought this was going to work ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# Well , when you 're - you know , when you 're 24 or 25 years old , you do n't have so much to lose . I was n't married . I did n't have any kids . For my case , the worst case scenario was I would disappoint a lot of people and I 'd do something else in life . It did n't - for me , it was a grand adventure . Starting a business is fun . It 's fun because you 're engaged and you 're passionate about it . And the whole dream just sort of swept us along . We did n't know what we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we got better . @!GUY-RAZ# You must have burned through that 45,000 pretty fast . @!JOHN-MACKEY# We did . We actually lost half of it in the first year . @!GUY-RAZ# Oh , wow . @!JOHN-MACKEY# We lost $23,000 the first year . @!GUY-RAZ# Were you freaking out ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# No but the investors were . @!GUY-RAZ# I bet . Yeah . @!JOHN-MACKEY# My dad was freaking out for sure . @!GUY-RAZ# I bet . @!JOHN-MACKEY# But I 'm - I just began to read books . I read hundreds and hundreds and hundreds . I have read hundreds , possibly a thousand books on business since the beginning . I also - I 'm an entrepreneur , so I try things . But if something does n't work , I stop doing it . That enabled us to learn quickly . And we did make a small $5,000 profit in our second year . @!GUY-RAZ# And how did you do that ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# Sort of managing our costs better . @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . @!JOHN-MACKEY# I started buying better , less spoilage , better management of labor hours . You @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ really know , and we had to figure it out . @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . And who were your customers at SaferWay ? Were they just like local hippies in Austin ? Or did you also have like sort of , you know , Austin high society people ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# So one of the jokes I tell is because I run into people all the time that tell me they were original SaferWay customers . And I say , you know , if half the people that said they were original SaferWay customers had been there , we never - we 'd of had five times the sales we ended up having . It 's kind of like the number of people that went to Woodstock , right ? They 're ... @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . @!JOHN-MACKEY# But no , they were all young . These were people - this was the counterculture . And part of the counterculture was they wanted their own stores . They did n't want to go to the traditional big supermarkets . They were a very alien experience for them . @!GUY-RAZ# I mean , so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . When did you start thinking about , you know , expanding ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# Well , after about - when I began to make money the second year , I began to realize that SaferWay was too small . And I just thought we needed to have a bigger , better location . So I began to dream about opening a real grocery store where you could do all your shopping there . @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . @!JOHN-MACKEY# So we found this location . It was this old nightclub on a big strip road in Austin - Lamar - that it had burned down to the ground . It had been a nightclub . So I first had to try to sell our board on it and try to get more money . And they said this is crazy . You lost half the money the first year . And this is great , you 're making money now , but why do n't you just stay there for a few years and then , you know , we 'll see ? It 's like no , we really to do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 're going to get out-competed . We 're not well-positioned competitively . @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . @!JOHN-MACKEY# But they were n't buying it . And more or less they said look , we do n't want to put any more money in but maybe you could find somebody else to invest . Their strategy there being no one else would be stupid enough to invest in this company with this , you know , crazy entrepreneur who 's - has n't been successful yet . So I began to hustle anybody I knew that had money . I 'd already , you know , people that - new people I met . And there was a guy who was playing basketball with that one day we 'd finished playing pickup basketball . And he got into like a BMW and drove off . And he was the same age as I was . And I said , wow , what does Jay ( ph ) do ? And they said , Jay does n't do anything . Jay 's a millionaire . He inherited a bunch of money from his parents @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ day . And it just turned out that Jay had had kind of his own food consciousness awakening and started shopping at SaferWay . He loved SaferWay . And Jay said he would put $50,000 in . And so I was like wow , OK , and went back to our board and said , I got a guy that 's going to put $50,000 in . And they were in shock . And several of them decided they wanted to kick more money in as well . @!GUY-RAZ# Wow . So what happened ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# So we rented that burned-out location . And the story there is also kind of interesting because the owner of that building was this guy named Ben Powell ( ph ) . It had been in his family . He lives - he 's an attorney living in Houston at that time . And I had to go and sell him on doing this natural food supermarket in his building . I pitched him on it . And he started laughing kind of towards the end of my pitch . And I said , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? And he said , John , I mean , this sounds like something you see in a movie , kind of a corny movie . He said , John , you are so full of enthusiasm . You think you can conquer the whole world . Well , life 's going to teach you different son , but you remind me of myself when I was young . Let 's do your got darn natural food supermarket . @!GUY-RAZ# ( Laughter ) . @!JOHN-MACKEY# And so we were able to get that store open . However , while we were building it , one of the - my friendly competitors that had opened up after SaferWay - it was called Clarksville Natural Grocery . And I really loved the two entrepreneurs that were doing that , Craig Weller and Mark Skiles . I thought these are good guys . They work really hard . They got a good store . And I pitched them . Look . We 're going to open this natural foods supermarket , one of the first natural foods supermarkets anywhere in the world . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Why do n't they join you instead of being competitors ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# Yes . Exactly . Join up . It 's going to be so much fun . By the way , if you do n't , we 're only a mile away from your site , your store . You 're going to - you know , you 're going to have trouble competing with us. @!GUY-RAZ# Wait . You told them - you basically said to them hey , this is going to be great . Let 's work together . And if you do n't , we 're going to crush you . @!JOHN-MACKEY# No . I did n't say it that way ... @!GUY-RAZ# OK. @!JOHN-MACKEY# ... Because - I mean , sometimes - funny thing is when I 've told this story , that 's how it gets interpreted in the media . @!GUY-RAZ# Oh , OK . I got you . @!JOHN-MACKEY# Of course I did n't threaten them . I mean , I said we 're only going to be a mile away . We 're going to have this big store . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Why do n't we do this together ? @!GUY-RAZ# Did they have any of their own conditions ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# Yes . One of Craig 's and Mark 's conditions is we have to make this a real store . We have to sell meat . And we have to sell beer and wine . And we have to sell coffee . We ca n't just be completely a vegetarian idealistic store or we do n't want to partner with you . And I 'd already thought Craig and Mark 's store was very successful . And I talked to - a lot of the customers cross-shopped . And they all wanted us to loosen our product standards to make it more a real grocery store . And it was kind of like , you know , if we 're going to eat these foods , then we need to be able to - we should sell them . So that was a compromise that was made that turned out to be the right compromise from a business decision perspective . @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . @!JOHN-MACKEY# And so the funny thing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . And they 'd come down after they 'd closed their store up and our store was being constructed . And then literally like two weeks before our store was set to open , they had seen enough and they said , we 're in . And so we had to really scramble to - now that we had to try to integrate our team members together . And we had to change the name . @!GUY-RAZ# And this is where - and I 'm assuming this is where Whole Foods is going to come in ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# Well , we started with the name Market . We are a market . And then it was like what kind of market are - we 're a food market . What kind of food market are we ? We 're kind of a natural foods market . Well , that seems kind of generic , ca n't call ourselves Natural Food Market . Well , we 're kind of an organic food market . Yeah , but we do n't have just organic . We ca n't call ourselves Organic Food @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ selling whole foods . And that was it , Whole Foods Market . @!GUY-RAZ# That was it . @!JOHN-MACKEY# That 's how we came up with our name . @!JOHN-MACKEY# And the store was an immediate success . People sometimes ask , how long did it take first Whole Foods Market to be successful ? And the answer - true answer is it took till about 3 o'clock in the afternoon on the first day . @!GUY-RAZ# Wow . Was that just because of luck , or was that just because of - there was this instant clamoring ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# There 's always an element of luck in success in life . @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . @!JOHN-MACKEY# You know , we - one of the reasons I wanted to merge with those guys was not only because I liked them and thought they could help us , but I thought , you know what , if we can get Clarksville and SaferWay in here , we 'll have almost enough sales between the two stores to break even . And then if we get other customers , we 'll never look @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this first store . It was amazing . And we did n't do any advertising , we just opened the doors . But the word of mouth was incredible . The whole Austin kind of counterculture hippie community knew about it immediately . @!GUY-RAZ# Wow . And did it just keep going like that from that point on ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# No . Like nine months after we opened - this is now in May of 1981 - Austin had the worst flood that it had had in about a hundred years . And our store was located in the hundred-year flood plain . So we were actually aware we were in the hundred-year flood plain . But when I said , well , what does that mean , they said , well , about every hundred years you 're going to have a flood . And I said , OK , I 'll take that chance . @!JOHN-MACKEY# it was a Sunday night . There had been a lot of rain during the weekend , but then it just really started to rain on Sunday . And I had gone @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And Renee started to call and said the water 's beginning to rise , you know , what do we do ? And I said , take the bulk bags and pile them up in front of the doors inside the store . Because that 's where we thought the water would come in , through the doors . And actually , it kept the water out till it got up to about 4 feet . @!GUY-RAZ# Wow . @!JOHN-MACKEY# But that store was not designed to be a submarine . And so when the water got up to about 4 feet , the sheer weight of the water basically broke through the glass of the doors , and it just came in like a tidal wave . @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . @!JOHN-MACKEY# Rene ended up swimming out of the store that night . And it was a Sunday . And we 'd had three days of sales that was in our floor safe . So I wanted to get the cash out of the store . And I went back . It was no lights . You got to picture @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ It 's night . It 's - I 'm sloshing around in the back with a flashlight . And there are actually people wandering around the store , looters that were wandering around the store . And I went into the office , and I opened up the floor safe . I was able to pull the money out . This was a time when we did n't take - nobody took credit cards . @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . @!JOHN-MACKEY# More than half our money back then was just in cash . @!GUY-RAZ# Cash , yeah . @!JOHN-MACKEY# I mean , we had about $100,000 . And I 'd put it all in this grocery bag . And I was wandering out the store . And this guy comes up to me . And he said , hey , buddy , did you find anything good in the back room ? And I said , I 'm not sure , it 's dark . I just grabbed this bag . There 's probably something back there for you . Go check it out . And we got the money out and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ thought we were pretty much out of business . There were cars floating down the street that we were watching float away . @!GUY-RAZ# In just a moment , after the flood and how John Mackey took Whole Foods from Austin to Boston and eventually to almost every state in America . I 'm Guy Raz , and you 're listening to HOW I BUILT THIS from NPR. @!GUY-RAZ# Hey , welcome back to HOW I BUILT THIS from NPR . I 'm Guy Raz . So it 's the spring of 1981 , and John Mackey 's first Whole Foods store is literally underwater . It had only been open for six months , and they had no flood insurance . @!JOHN-MACKEY# And you got to picture what this store was like . This tidal wave of water had come in . And when you have a flood like that , all the sewage lines back up as well . So you have all this bulk food . And you - we had meat and fish and sewage . @!GUY-RAZ# Wow . @!JOHN-MACKEY# And it was just a total @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we showed up for work . And we started cleaning everything up . And all those other people , I kind of recognized them but they were n't team members . I did n't - they were customers . We had customers and neighbors , and everybody was pitching in. @!GUY-RAZ# Oh , that 's cool . @!JOHN-MACKEY# And by all rights , Whole Foods should have died through that flood . And we had to rebuild the store . It was going to cost a lot of money to do that , and we just did n't have the money . So I thought - we all thought we were finished . But every one of the stakeholders rallied . There was a benefit held for the store . And the team members , they worked for free . Our bank loaned us money on my signature , which was worthless . And the investors decided to kick in more cash . So we were able to reopen 30 days later . That just pulled everybody together . @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . @!JOHN-MACKEY# We really united around that near-death experience @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ just getting things in order ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# No . I wanted to open a second store after the flood . @!GUY-RAZ# Oh , wow . @!JOHN-MACKEY# It was like we ca n't put all of our eggs in a basket that might float down the river . We 've got to have a second store . The second store did n't - it did n't start as well as the first store . It was up in north Austin . And it was in the suburbs , kind of away from the counterculture community of Austin and was trying to market to more conventional , you know , suburban people . And it took a couple of years for that store to actually turn its first profit . And then we opened a third store in Austin , in South Boston . Now , that turned out to be very challenging for us because that store was too close to our original store and cannibalized it significantly . And together we started to lose money . @!GUY-RAZ# And did that , like , cause any tension with your partners ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ one of the partners , Mark , he really did n't want to grow because we had this goldmine . He just wanted to mine it . @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . @!JOHN-MACKEY# So the long and short of it was that Mark sold his interest in the company and went into another direction in his life . So he was the first co-founder to exit . Actually , Renee exited slightly before him because she and I broke up . And she wanted to travel the world and see other places . So she got a new boyfriend , and she left . And doing a - starting a business together either brings you closer together or rips you apart . And in the case of Renee and I , it ended up ripping us apart . So then it was just Craig and I left . And a partnership is challenged when it gets into hard times . The good times are easy . @!GUY-RAZ# But did you ever - did you ever think to yourself maybe they 're right , maybe we expanded too quickly , maybe I made @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . @!JOHN-MACKEY# I mean , I was regretting opening the south Austin store because , I mean , almost all the sales it got came at the expense of our original store . So - but I really wanted to grow the business . I mean , I am not saying I - all the challenges were like , oh , boy , another great challenge , it 's hitting us really hard . What I 've always thought is OK , this is a great lesson for me . I can learn something here . I am learning something here . And I learned a lot from those early failures or those - not really failures but sort of the early trials . @!GUY-RAZ# So if you were looking to expand the business , presumably you would have to raise some pretty serious money , right ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# Yes . In 1988 , we decided we could n't grow as fast as we wanted to grow from just our retained profits . Tapped out all of our friends and family , and there was no angel @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . And this was a time when venture capital was not really very cranked up like it is today . @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . @!JOHN-MACKEY# We hired a banker . And we began to try to raise venture capital money . And we got rejected again and again and again . And we - trying to talk to the venture capitalists , they just could n't get what we were doing . I mean , one guy who turned me down , he said to me , he said , you know , John , I see you got a pretty good business here , but it looks to me like - I looked at all the stores - and you 're just a bunch of hippies . And you 're just selling food to other hippies . I do n't think that 's a very big market . @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . @!JOHN-MACKEY# And if it 's going to spread further than - then the big companies are going to take a lot of interest in it . And I do n't think you can compete with Safeway . I do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . They 're going to run you out of business . I mean , people are still telling me that today . I 've been hearing it for 40 years now . @!GUY-RAZ# But , I mean , he had a point back then , right ? I mean , you 're talking about the mid-to-late ' 80s . And , of course , I 'm sure that guy is kicking himself today , right ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# Yeah . He apologized to me about 10 years later , said it was the worst decision he ever made ( laughter ) . @!GUY-RAZ# Were these venture capital companies based in Texas , or did you go to like Silicon Valley ? Like , where were you looking for money ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# We did go to Silicon Valley . And we got two based out of Houston , but we were beginning to slowly cross over because we were not only selling natural and organic foods , but our quality of food was better . And so we were beginning to get a more mainstream shopper coming in . And that was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ got two investors from Houston , and we got another one out of Silicon Valley . @!GUY-RAZ# And then what did that enable you to do , to just expand and expand more ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# Yes . We sold 34 percent of the business for an $8.5 million valuation . @!GUY-RAZ# Wow . @!JOHN-MACKEY# So about eight times our earnings or about , I do n't know , 20 percent - 15 percent of our sales . It was - it 's ridiculous the kind of valuations people get today compared to what we could get back in the late 1980s. @!GUY-RAZ# And is this also when you started to think about going public ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# Yeah . But venture capitalists , they did n't want us to go public . They wanted us to do another round of venture financing . But I was determined not to do another round of venture financing because that would have given them control of the company . And I just did n't trust the venture guys . Venture capitalists are like hitchhikers , hitchhikers with credit cards . And as long as @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they will help you pay for the gas . But if you do n't take them where they want to go , they will try to hijack the car , and they will hire a new driver and throw you out on the side of the road . So I did not trust the VCs . I liked them . I did n't trust them . I did not want them to take control of the company . So I thought we 're going to go public , and then we 're going to get the hitchhikers out of the car . So it was a little early for Whole Foods to go public , or so I was told later on , but we did go public back in 1992 . And we raised about $28 million . @!GUY-RAZ# And so overnight your company was worth what ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# Overnight we were with about a hundred million when we went public . @!GUY-RAZ# And so what did that mean ? I mean , did that mean that instantly you had all of this cash and you could actually grow @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Yes . The greatest thing about it was we had a currency , the currency being our own stock . We can now go to other companies that were like Whole Foods Market . We were the biggest , but there were other - we had other peers . @!GUY-RAZ# So you were looking to buy them ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# Yes . First one was Bread & Circus ... @!GUY-RAZ# In Boston . @!JOHN-MACKEY# ... In Boston . @!GUY-RAZ# I remember that place . @!JOHN-MACKEY# Great company . @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . @!JOHN-MACKEY# And next , we acquired Mrs. Gooch 's from ... @!GUY-RAZ# I remember Mrs. Gooch 's , yup . @!JOHN-MACKEY# And we did that in ' 93 . We did a big one with Fresh Fields . And they had 22 stores . We acquired them in 1996 . Once we had those , we were able to grow much faster . @!GUY-RAZ# So as your , like , expansion just moved at a clip - right ? - through the ' 90s and into the 2000s ... @!JOHN-MACKEY# Yeah . @!GUY-RAZ# ... I mean , I have to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and how people produced food and created new markets for organic food . @!JOHN-MACKEY# That 's certainly true , we did . I mean , we did n't do it by ourselves obviously , but - because you have farmers . But we created much of the demand for natural and organic in the United States , our success did . And that created more farmers and more entrepreneurs wanting to farm organically or more manufacturers wanting to produce organic manufactured goods . So we helped . We had a huge impact , we still do . @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . What percentage of the grocery market does Whole Foods control today in the U.S. ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# it 's about 1.5 to 2 percent . I do n't know if we - we do n't control that , by the way ( laughter ) . @!GUY-RAZ# Right . Yeah . But about 1 to 2 percent of all grocery shops . @!JOHN-MACKEY# Yeah . @!GUY-RAZ# Which is a lot smaller than a lot of people would assume because Whole Foods ' influence is probably much greater than that then @!JOHN-MACKEY# Yeah @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ our weight class . @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . I mean , it 's surprising . How many stores are - do you have today across the country ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# We have about 465. @!GUY-RAZ# So I want to ask you a question about the stores because you , of course , have heard the joke that whole foods is more like Whole Paycheck - right ? - that the prices are so expensive for most people . So , I mean , do you think that 's a fair criticism ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# Well , of course we do n't like that . And it 's not a - when that nickname was given to us , it was first given to us affectionately by people who loved us . And then it became a club that people would beat on Whole Foods who did n't like us . And there is a kind of a tendency , for people to think you can get the same quality stuff at lower prices . I do n't think people have the same quality Whole Foods has . we have the best quality . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and price . @!GUY-RAZ# And , I mean , you 've had people who 've attacked you as well because you , I mean , you 've been kind of a lightning rod with some of the things that you 've said and written about like climate change and unions that do n't - in the views of , people - do n't necessarily seem to jive with Whole Foods . @!JOHN-MACKEY# Well , my take is , of course , that people that know me like me . People that do n't know me and they just read things or hear things , they project . But , you know , I 've learned a lot . I 've learned that there are like four topics I just do n't talk about in public anymore . @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . What are they ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# I do n't talk about politics , religion , sex or GMOs. @!GUY-RAZ# ( Laughter ) That 's - what is there left to talk about ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# I mean , I would n't even care if people hated me . It 's just that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ like my baby . @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . @!JOHN-MACKEY# Stop picking on my kid . Do whatever you want with me , but leave the kid out of it . @!GUY-RAZ# You know , John , when somebody , like , anyone listening to this who 's been to Whole Foods - right ? - like when I walk into a Whole Foods , there 's a feeling that you get the company has certain values that a lot of the shoppers identify with , right ? There 's , you know , there 's sort of an attempt to help make the world a better place and to work with community organizations . And it 's - it feels very , I mean , lack of a better word , it feels sort of liberal to a lot of people . And so you can understand why people are interested in the people behind Whole Foods , people like you . They 're interested in how you see the world , right ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# Yes . And I do n't know - I do n't equate liberal with caring , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a political argument with you . But there 's a meta narrative about business in our world , Guy . And that narrative is that business sucks and business is greedy and selfish and exploitative . It only cares about money . But people do n't want to believe Whole Foods Market 's a different kind of company - we are . We 're purpose-driven . We 're stakeholder-focused . If I 'm proud of anything , it 's that Whole Foods Market has made a difference . And we do care . @!GUY-RAZ# You know , I 'm wondering whether some of the criticism that you 've had over the years , you know , even the way Whole Foods does business , has that improved Whole Foods ? Have there been times where people have said hey , you know , what Whole Foods is doing with this is wrong and - or protesting . Has it changed the way you guys have actually operated ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# Yeah , it has . I mean , the most famous example is back in 2003 . We were being picketed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ particular duck we were selling which they considered to be a factory farm duck . But I got into a dialogue with one of the activists , a very passionate young woman named Lauren Ornelas . And I - you know , after about a month or so , she sends me an email . And she says , you know , Mr. Mackey , I see after our dialogue that you 're a very idealistic person . However , when it comes to livestock animals , honestly , you do n't know what you 're talking about . You are not well-informed on this subject . And , you know , I thought about it . And I thought , you know , she 's really right . I do n't know that much about this personally . I 'm just - I decided to become an expert myself . And that summer , summer 2003 , I read about a dozen books on how we raise animals in America . And I was utterly horrified . I 'd just been living in denial . It was a complete @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the summer , I had made two resolutions . One , I was going to go - to be - I was becoming a vegan . And number two , I knew Whole Foods needed to do a much better job , that the accusations that the animal rights people had made about what we were doing were fundamentally correct . We then began a process of bringing in animal activists and Whole Foods people in dialogue . @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . @!JOHN-MACKEY# And that that led to the Global Animal Partnership which Whole Foods Market sponsored and tried to follow the GAP standards for the last several years . @!GUY-RAZ# Whole Foods obviously had this explosive growth and really became the biggest natural foods market in the country , but as was predicted , the big guys got into this game . I mean , Wal-Mart is a bigger organic grocer now . And there 's Trader Joe 's . And there 's competitors . And does that keep you up at night ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# No . I mean , it 's just new challenges . This is the great @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't emphasize creating a business , it 's - there is no point in business where you can say at last I have arrived . @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . @!JOHN-MACKEY# What makes business so amazing and makes capitalism so dynamic is that , in fact , people - if you 're successful , people copy you . And that 's what 's happened with Whole Foods . A lot of people have copied us . That helps keep your edge and helps keep you on your toes . Complacency is a very , very bad thing to have in business . The two things that hold - bring a lot of businesses down , one 's complacency . And you get successful . And you start to sit on your laurels . And the other one 's hubris or arrogance . You think that you 're just better than everybody else . That 's a huge mistake . Those are both big mistakes . @!GUY-RAZ# John , you still , of course , live in Austin , so I 'm assuming that now and again you must pass by the location @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I go out of my way to pass by it . @!GUY-RAZ# And do you - what is it today ? @!JOHN-MACKEY# It 's a school . @!GUY-RAZ# Oh , wow . @!JOHN-MACKEY# It 's a school . And fun - one of my friends started that school , like a belly school . And I got a tour of it a few years ago . And the thing that was so odd - of course , they changed some of it - but I remembered it just like it was yesterday . And I could see where the - where we had our bulk bins . And I could see - because they left the basic structure of it intact , so it was a trip down memory row for sure . @!GUY-RAZ# John , a certain point , I mean , you will not run Whole Foods , right ? I mean , you 'll move on or retire or whatever . I mean , can the company - can Whole Foods continue without , you know , without the charisma - without your charisma , without your @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I mean , you are running it . @!JOHN-MACKEY# Of course it can . And - but , I mean , when the founder - I 'm the last founder left . I mean , Craig was the second to last , and he left almost 20 years ago . And a lot of the people that I built the business with besides the founders , they 're retiring now because they 're in their ' 60s . And they 've made a lot of money too over the years through Whole Foods . So there 'll be no one that ever loves Whole Foods Market as much as I love it . @!GUY-RAZ# Yeah . @!JOHN-MACKEY# But building a business is a little bit like having children and watching the children grow up is that you hope your child is healthy . And you hope your child is happy . And you hope your child has integrity and does the right thing . And it 's important to have a good founder and entrepreneur , but the great businesses continue to live on after the founder moves . I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ John Mackey , founder of Whole Foods . From that one tiny store to today , the company 's market cap is now about $11 billion . And despite selling lots of meat and dairy products , John is a committed vegan and a pretty good home cook . He 's been known to serve his dinner guests tofu with mushrooms , tahini and broccoli . And for dessert ? Avocado chocolate pudding . @!GUY-RAZ# And please do stick around because in just a moment we 're going to hear from you about the things you 're building . @!GUY-RAZ# Hey , thanks for sticking around because it 's time now for How You Built That . And this story is from Kyle Ewing in Denver , Colo. , who got his idea for a business in a kind of a roundabout way . @!KYLE-EWING# I got the idea when I was trying to create a product for students traveling abroad . This product was a backup copy of their passport . @!GUY-RAZ# Kyle was trying to sell backup passports online that would be as durable as the real thing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the market for this type of product does n't yet exist , so I was trying to create the market , which proved to be very difficult . And I was trying to figure out what to do when the phone rang . @!GUY-RAZ# And the guy on the phone , it was actually somebody who said , hey , Kyle , I love your passports . I even bought four of them for my kids . @!KYLE-EWING# And he said , all four of my daughters use the SOS world pass . I love it , but I have a question for you . Can I buy a case of your paper ? @!GUY-RAZ# And at that moment , Kyle realized that the waterproof paper he was using for the passports was actually a better business idea than just the passports . @!KYLE-EWING# That moment was me standing up out of my chair and spiking the pencil and doing a touchdown dance because it was an immediate lightbulb moment where I realized this failing business just grew legs . And all of a sudden , I had a million @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for . @!GUY-RAZ# And that is a pretty long list . @!KYLE-EWING# Waterproof restaurant menus , waterproof children 's books , waterproof maps , field manuals for the U.S. Navy , nautical charts for the U.S. Coast Guard . @!GUY-RAZ# Now , to back up just a little , Kyle is not an engineer . But when he was working on the passport idea , he made a bunch of calls to chemical experts . And he told them he was looking to make paper that was totally waterproof , much more waterproof than say , you know , just laminating something . @!KYLE-EWING# So iteration after iteration , we finally got to paper that 's both waterproof and rip-proof and something that can also receive and hold ink when it 's been printed on . @!GUY-RAZ# He eventually found a manufacturer in the U.S. to make a polyester pulp that could be pressed and rolled into waterproof paper . But he wanted to tinker with the product himself , so he moved a laser printer into his living room . @!KYLE-EWING# But when I put it through my home @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ printer , and it smelled like burning plastic . And the entire printer was trash after that . @!GUY-RAZ# Kyle 's very supportive wife actually came home that night . She smelled the burning smell . And she said ... @!KYLE-EWING# Kyle , I love this arts and crafts project you 've taken on , but it 's time to get to a more realistic product or business idea . @!GUY-RAZ# But one printer and seven iterations later and Kyle says he came up with the most waterproof paper on the market . And he has the clients to prove it , including , yes , the U.S. Navy and Air Force , several restaurant and hotel chains , university labs , even Google. @!KYLE-EWING# And a good entrepreneurial day is when you sit back , you look at your sales or you look at the new client you just got , and you think , oh , my gosh , this is a real business . I 'm building something that matters , and it actually is a success . @!GUY-RAZ# Kyle Ewing of Denver . He launched TerraSlate @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ expects revenue to reach into the low millions . If you want to learn more about TerraSlate , head to our Facebook page . Just search HOW I BUILT THIS on Facebook . And , of course , if you want to tell us your story , go to build.npr.org . We love hearing from you . And thanks for listening to the show this week . If you want to find out more about it or listen to previous episodes , you can go to howibuiltthis.npr.org . Please also subscribe to the show at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts . And while you 're , there please do give us a review . You can also write to us at hibt @npr.org And if you want to send us a tweet , it 's @howibuiltthis . Our show is produced this week by Ramtin Arablouei , who also composed the music . Thanks also to Neva Grant , Sanaz Meshkinpour , Claire Breen and Jeff Rogers . I 'm Guy Raz , and you 've been listening to HOW I BUILT THIS from NPR.

@@4172541 @!SEN-MIKE-LEE-(R) , -# What 's been introduced in the last 24 hours is not the " Obama care " replacement plan , not the " Obama care " repeal plan we 've been hoping for . This is instead a step in the wrong direction . @!REP-LOUIE-GOHMERT-# There better not be a rule that prevents amendments that are badly needed to fix this flawed bill . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE# Obviously , we have some serious concerns . We have n't been shy about the serious concerns as we look at that . And yet with any negotiation , you look at the tradeoffs . What are the risks versus the rewards ? @!SEN-RAND-PAUL- ( R-K# The House bill 's been put forward is " Obama care lite . " It wo n't work . Premiums and prices will continue to spiral out of control . @ ( END VIDEO CLIP ) @!HANNITY# All right , so is the American Health Care Act " Obama care lite " ? All right , before we get to that , let 's take a step back . Let 's look at some positive aspects that are in this plan . After seven years of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ attempting to do just that . That 's a good thing . By eliminating the individual and employer mandates -- that 's a good thing . Also , this bill strips federal funding for abortion providers like Planned Parenthood . That 's a promise the president made on the campaign trail . It also eliminates the medical device tax , as well as other oppressive taxes enacted under " Obama care . " But -- and a big " but " tonight . While the American Health Care Act is a step in the right direction , it is far from perfect . It must be fixed . Now , " Obama care " must be under all circumstances completely repealed . We have rising premium costs , they must be addressed further . And certain types of insurance free cooperatives need to be utilized , as long as -- as well as health care savings accounts , which we will explore in just a minute . But before the GOP -- I 'm warning everybody on both sides of this debate . Until they erupt into massive infighting , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Health and Human Services secretary , who will join us later , Tom Price . @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!TOM-PRICE , -HHS-SEC# This is a work in progress , and we 'll work with the House and the Senate in this process . As you know , it 's a legislative process that occurs . You start at a starting point . People engage and they get involved in the process , sometimes to a greater degree . Nothing focuses the mind like a bill that 's currently on the table and that has -- has a -- is a work in progress , or in process . And we 'll work through it . @ ( END VIDEO CLIP ) @!HANNITY# It 's very important the Freedom Caucus and the Study Group in the House and people like Rand Paul and Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio and Mike Lee be listened to and that their contributions added to this bill . So Secretary Price is right . And tonight , I want to put an end to the civil war that seems to be brewing inside the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ American Health Care Act , as Tom Price said , is a first draft . First drafts are never perfect , always filled with errors , miscalculations . Now it 's up to Republican members of Congress to come together and fix this bill and get it right for you , the American people , all while putting together a unified strategy to combat efforts from Democrats to paint the bill as a disaster for low-income Americans . In other words , Republicans want to kill children and kill old people . Now , these can not take place , these discussions on TV or in the press . My suggestion tonight is Republicans , that includes the Freedom Caucus , that includes the senators I mentioned , and that includes others , should get together in a room , work through these issues in person , the House Freedom Caucus , Rand Paul , Ted Cruz , Mike Lee , Marco Rubio , other conservatives who have been loudly voicing their concerns for eight years , and sadly , many of these ideas were not represented in this bill @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and replaced , Republicans , you are going to own what 's in this . And those who voted to put you in control of Congress will not settle for " Obama care lite , " myself included . So Congress , remember , your jobs are on the line here . But more importantly , so are the lives and the well-being of millions of Americans . You got to get this right and you 've got to join forces . Frankly , it would have been better if a consensus bill was built before it was released . But with that being said , you still have time to fix it , and I hope you do . Joining me now is a doctor who all members of Congress , I believe , should get to know . He founded what 's called Atlas MD , a health care cooperative . It 's in Wichita , Kansas , that is in insurance-free . Dr. Josh Umbehr is with us , as well as family physician Dr. Ryan Neuhofel ( ph ) . Guys , welcome to the program @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Sean , for having ( INAUDIBLE ) @!HANNITY# ... how long have I been talking to you on radio in particular ? How many years has it been . It 's been a while , right ? @!UMBEHR# Oh , five , six years now . @!HANNITY# OK . Let 's go back -- how many people do you serve in your health cooperative ? How much does it cost ? What are people provided ? And tell us about the incredible deals you made with pharmaceutical companies , and tell us how it 's been duplicated . So I 'm really opening it up for you to explain what you do . @!UMBEHR# Absolutely . And thanks for being the leader in having this conversation about real solutions that could be enacted to help Americans . The idea is direct primary care , which is the new model going forward , where we do n't take insurance because we do n't need insurance for the common things . Our care is $10 a month for kids , $50 a month for most adults for unlimited visits , no co-pays @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on medications , labs , imaging , et cetera , by going wholesale . We 're able to take that full value , go back to an employer , decrease their insurance premiums by 30 to 60 percent in the first year . These are things that could dramatically change the scope of medicine in this country . @!HANNITY# Let me go over some of what I know about it . So children on the plan pay $10 a month ? @!UMBEHR# That 's correct . @!HANNITY# Well , their parents pay , I 'm sure . Adults pay $50 a person , right ? @!UMBEHR# We make some of them pay themselves . @!HANNITY# Wow . All right . @!PRICE# Adults , yes . @!HANNITY# And adults pay $50 a person . Now , that includes , correct me if I 'm wrong , unlimited health care , right ? Unlimited inasmuch as ... @(CROSSTALK) @!HANNITY# ... unlimited doctor visits . They can go see you -- they can get -- let 's go to the simple things . If they need stitches , they can go to your @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!HANNITY# And if they need antibiotics , they can get antibiotics . @!PRICE# For pennies on the pill . @!HANNITY# And if they break a bone , what happens ? @!PRICE# Well , then we could get X-rays for $20 to $40 typically . And that includes radiology reads . So something that could easily be over $100 anywhere else , or over $500 to $1,000 at the ER . So ... @!HANNITY# All for 50 bucks a month . @(CROSSTALK) @!HANNITY# ... all that , and you pay a little bit extra for your MRI reading , but you pay considerably less . And the average person might have a catastrophic insurance plan on top of it , if God forbid , they have a heart attack or get cancer or have a bad accident , right ? @!PRICE# Absolutely . And now those plans would be drastically cheaper per month , so they 're more affordable so more people would have health insurance . And actually , the insurance companies that have worked with us the longest , like Allied National out of Kansas City , actually @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 've worked hard that the insurance companies see a benefit , the employers see a benefit , but most importantly , the patient see a benefit . @!HANNITY# Guys , thank you both . Congratulations on what you 've been able to accomplish . Now , stay right there . Coming up next tonight on " Hannity " ... @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!PRICE# The American people have said to their elected leaders that the " Obama care " process for them gaining coverage and care is not working . That 's what they 've said . And so we believe it 's important to respond to the American people . @ ( END VIDEO CLIP ) @!HANNITY# The Health and Human Services secretary , Tom Price -- he spoke to reporters today about the " Obama care " replacement plan . He says it 's only a first step . Well , hopefully , some people believe that . He 'll join us next in a " Hannity " exclusive . And then later -- are there left-wing deep state forces trying to sabotage the president and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ tonight . Also , Monica Crowley is back . That and more on this busy news night tonight on " Hannity. " @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!REP-PAUL-RYAN- ( R-W# Doing big things is never easy , but we have made a promise , and we 're going to keep that promise . We made a promise to repeal and replace " Obama care " with conservative solutions and reforms . That is exactly what this bill does and that 's why we 're here . @ ( END VIDEO CLIP ) @!HANNITY# All right , that was Speaker Paul Ryan earlier today talking about the Republican plan to now repeal , replace " Obama care . " But not all GOP lawmakers are on board with this new legislation . Joining us now is the Health and Human Services secretary , former congressman , somebody I 've known for a while , Tom Price . By the way , congratulations , Congressman , on your new position . @!PRICE# Oh , thanks , Sean . Thank you so much . Wonderful to be with you . @!HANNITY# I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ at the criticisms from the Freedom Caucus , Rand Paul , Mike Lee , Ted Cruz , Marco Rubio -- these are significant conservatives , also conservatives on radio . And I had interviewed you a long time ago about your specific plan . And what is so kind of shocking to me is that all these criticisms were out there by conservatives before the bill was introduced . Why was n't there a meeting and a consensus built on the bill within the Republican Party before it was released ? @!PRICE# Well , it was released by the House , as you know . But we 've been working with members of the Senate , members of the House , stakeholders all across the land about this piece of legislation . And we 've gotten to a pretty sweet spot . Now , there -- this is a work in progress and continues to be so . But the core is that " Obama care " has failed , as you well know . We got costs that are going up . The access is going down . It @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the market . Premiums are going up . Deductibles are skyrocketing . So people are n't getting care or coverage right now in the individual and small group market . @!HANNITY# Yes . @!PRICE# This bill addresses just that by providing the kinds of access to care and affordable coverage that individuals need . @!HANNITY# it 's -- we all agree on repeal . the replacement is where the disagreement within the Republican Party -- what I -- what I do n't want to see happen , Congressman -- Secretary Price -- I 'm used to calling you Congressman . What I do n't want to see is an intramural civil war with Republicans ... @!PRICE# Absolutely . @!HANNITY# ... over the bill . For example , the big criticism is it 's not a full repeal , A , and B , and that it 's a new entitlement program . And one of the things one of the Freedom Caucus members told me today is they would rather block grant any money for the uninsured or the poor back to the states . Would that be something @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 're talking about tactics , and that thing ( ph ) . But let me make clear to people that this -- this single bill is not the entire plan . There are three different phases . One is this bill that has to go through reconciliation because it 's a budgetary process . Two is all of the kinds of rules and regulations . You remember all the things that the previous administration did , hundreds of rules , thousands , literally thousands of guidance letters . We 're going to go through every single one of them to determine whether or not they help patients or hurt patients . And if they hurt patients , we 're going to do our best to get rid of them . And then the third phase is another piece of legislation that ca n't be done through reconciliation because of the specific rules . Those are the kinds of things that we 're going to do in those phase two and three , to purchase across state lines , to put in lawsuit abuse reform , expand HSAs in a more @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ actually bring down costs and allow individuals to get the coverage that they want for themselves and for their families . @!HANNITY# because a lot of people thought the 123-page bill was the bill , and that 's the reason . Mr. Secretary , let me ask this question because one of the things that some conservatives are asking -- and it 's a fair question . They -- every Republican voted for a repeal bill in and of itself in 2015 . Why not do that again so you ensure all of it is gone ? Is that possible ? @!PRICE# Well , I do n't think that the governors of the states would allow that to happen because what ... @(CROSSTALK) @!HANNITY# ... Washington . @!PRICE# ... is that repealing the programs that they 've used to try to cover their most vulnerable populations and not then being able to know what the future holds -- that 's not a viable proposal . And the president , as you well know , has said repeal and replace . We 're going to do them concurrently and move forward @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to recognize the three different phases , the bill , the rule changes and the secondary bill . @!HANNITY# Is there a new entitlement in this bill ? @!PRICE# Absolutely not . @!HANNITY# In other words , money ... @!PRICE# What we 're trying to do , Sean , as you well know , is to equalize the tax treatment of health coverage for folks . We 've said that for years . Conservatives have said that for years . If you get your coverage through your employer , which is about 175 million people in this country , you get a tax benefit because you 're -- that 's paid with pre-tax dollars . The individuals that are out there in the individual and small group market , they do n't have any tax benefits . We 're trying to equalize the tax treatment of health care coverage for folks , and that 's the way that we think makes it much more fair for all individuals across this land . @!HANNITY# You know , in the last segment , we had Dr. Josh Umbehr from Wichita , and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of years . He 's a really smart guy . He 's from Wichita , Kansas . And he started this cooperative , and it 's been duplicated a lot around the country . In his cooperative in Kansas , they have a $10 monthly charge for children , a $50 monthly charge for adults . It includes unlimited health care . He has independently negotiated with the pharmaceutical companies for the major drugs that his patients need and gets 90 percent reductions . And then most of his patients have catastrophic plans , which are relatively inexpensive , based on what your deductible is ... @!PRICE# Correct . @!HANNITY# ... in case you have a heart attack , an accident , God forbid , or cancer , God forbid . And that is the best insurance -- that 's what insurance seems to really be for . Can that be duplicated . For example , could the Bricklayers Association of America , carpenters ' unions across America -- is that something that maybe could be duplicated , considering it 's so impressive to me ... @!PRICE# Yes . @!HANNITY# @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ which we all agree we need in this bill ? @!PRICE# Absolutely . What a great model to follow . And the flexibility that we have in this legislation and that we will have in the second and third phases -- the flexibility that we 'll allow ought to be able to make it so that that could be a model for anybody that wants to do that . Right now , it 's virtually impossible , and that 's not -- that 's -- that 's a program that may work for government ... @!HANNITY# Yes . @!PRICE# ... but it does n't work for patients . And that 's where we need to have our focus . @!HANNITY# Last question , Mr. Secretary . How much input -- those people that have been vocal and critical today , the Freedom Caucus , those senators that I mentioned , these conservative groups that I mentioned , Heritage Action , Club for Growth , FreedomWorks , Americans for Prosperity -- how much input will you allow them to have as you move forward in these three phases ? Because a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 're looking forward to working with every single person , as we have to date , and folks who are interested in moving our health care system in a direction that puts patients and families and doctors in charge . And we 're in the receiving mode for the kinds of reforms that people think need be put into place through the regulatory process , through the guidance process , through the third piece of legislation , that third phase that will be necessary . This is incredibly important , and it 's such an exciting time to be able to respond to the concerns of the American people and the dictates that they have , the requirement that they have to make certain that we address our health care system . @!HANNITY# Oh , it 's -- look , this is the -- this is a defining moment for the Republicans ... @!PRICE# That 's right . @!HANNITY# ... and certainly for the president , the fact that you 're going to have an open door and these people will be heard , and those changes are going to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ first step -- is a little more reassuring than how I felt earlier today . Mr. Secretary , I look forward to continuing this discussion as we move forward , and I wish you the best of luck . @!PRICE# Thanks , Sean . @!HANNITY# ( INAUDIBLE ) what we get this done , but get it done right . Thank you , sir . @!PRICE# We got to get it done right . Thanks so much , Sean . Take care . @!HANNITY# All right , appreciate it . All the best . And coming up , are Obama holdovers , is that shadow government officials -- are they working behind the scenes to continue to damage the Trump administration ? We 'll examine tonight 's evidence . We 'll get reaction from Laura Ingraham . And later tonight , she 's back . Monica Crowley returns to " Hannity " with reaction to the unrelenting attacks against everybody in the Trump administration , as we continue . @(NEWSBREAK) @!HANNITY# Welcome back to " Hannity . " All right , the alt left propaganda destroy Trump media and the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ refusing to ask President Barack Obama very critical questions about wiretapping . And that is tonight 's " mini- monologue . " All right , so the left is breathlessly saying that the president is n't telling the truth over wiretapping allegations . Now , just take a look at some of the headlines from The New York Times , CNN , The Washington Post smearing the president . Trump offering no evidence says Obama tapped his phones . Trump 's baseless wiretap claim . And Trump citing no evidence accuses Obama of Nixon Watergate plot to wiretap Trump Tower . Now , the hypocrisy is stunning ! Why ? The New York Times is accusing the president of lying , but they are the ones that printed this headline on the front page of their paper of all days January 20th . Wiretap data used in inquiry of Trump aides . Now , if you read the article , it says in part , quote , " The FBI is leading the investigations aided by the National Security Agency , the CIA and the Treasury Department 's Financial Crimes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ their efforts in recent weeks but have found no conclusive evidence of wrongdoing , the official said . One official said intelligence reports based on some of the wiretapped communications had been provided to the White House . " So The New York Times reported on wiretapped communications that got to the White House . But somehow , President Trump -- he 's the one who 's lying ? This is ridiculous and it proves exactly why you , the American people , do not trust the media . Now , there 's also the ridiculous statement from President Barack Obama 's spokesman . " A cardinal rule of the Obama administration was that no White House official ever interfered with any independent investigation led by the Department of Justice . As part of that practice , neither President Obama nor any White House official ever ordered " -- keyword -- " ordered surveillance on any U.S. citizen . Any suggestion otherwise is simply false . " Now , the statement never said that President Obama did n't know about it , like The New York Times told us , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ anyone in the press ever going to ask if Obama knew about the surveillance of an opposition party during an election year , or will they just give him another pass ? Here with reaction , editor-in-chief of Lifezette , FOX News contributor , nationally syndicated radio host -- and she 's got more titles than any guest we ever had -- and best-selling author , and what -- what are you throwing up in the year , my football ? @!LAURA-INGRAHAM , -FO# No , just my phone . I just -- you want to -- you want to -- I just want to blow it up now and not even look at the phone . @!HANNITY# Well , my phone 's been blowing up all day , too . @!INGRAHAM# Yes . @!HANNITY# I can only imagine . All right , this is really important . They reported on it . So all Donald Trump has to say is , Well , I was quoting you guys . You guys supposedly tell the truth . Who would ever doubt The New York Times ? It becomes amusing . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ maybe we were wrong , and apologize and retract ? @!INGRAHAM# Yes , it 's no doubt that that January report , Sean , in The New York Times showed that the intelligence agencies have been monitoring associates , former associates , advisers of Donald Trump , applied for a FISA warrant once , was rejected , got a FISA warrant on a second go-round . It looks like everyone from Roger Stone to Carter Page and Paul Manafort , and who knows how many other people were monitored . Now , they 're quibbling with the wording of Donald Trump 's tweet . OK , I 'll concede that . Maybe the exact working -- maybe Obama did n't definitively order it . But maybe the president knew about it , and ... @!HANNITY# Well , The New York Times , if you look at that statement , it says they did know about it . @!INGRAHAM# Yes , well , definitely the administration did . I 'm just saying specifically ordering it . I mean , that 's what they 're -- they 're hanging this all on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ today . They went around and around and around with Sean Spicer about this , to little or no effect . What you see happening now in Washington is that Donald Trump 's moving forward on his key agenda items . And there 's a lot of disagreement on those agenda items , even among Republicans , as we 're seeing with the " Obama care " fight . But he 's moving forward . He needs to keep doing that . And this Russia bombshell , Wikileaks today , if that 's verified , it looks like it 's verified , the intelligence agencies -- @!SEAN-HANNITY , -FOX-# What you make of it ? It 's pretty damning. @!INGRAHAM# It 's really if it 's true because part of what was revealed is that our intelligence agencies are using countries like Russia as scapegoats when it 's really them . @!HANNITY# That was the most revealing thing to me . Great minds think alike here . And we need to set this foundation . WikiLeaks has not been wrong in over 10 years , not one time have they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . You 're right . If they were using specific deceptive techniques to make it look like the Russians , then that opens up the question , did in fact they try and pin all of this Russia conspiracy stuff that the media has fallen hook , line , and sinker for without any evidence , did they do it internally , the same people that are leaking on Trump ? @!INGRAHAM# You know what 's odd , Sean , is when the Democrats refuse release , the DNC refused to release their computers or their server -- @!HANNITY# To the FBI . @!INGRAHAM# -- for forensic analysis . I thought that was very odd . If you 're worried about hacking and you even can think it would be related back somehow to the Republican nominee , would n't you want to -- would n't you want to reveal that ? Would n't you want to find whatever you can find ? So at the time that struck me as odd . I know the president himself has referenced this several times . That was a red flag for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do it instead of the FBI . @!INGRAHAM# Yes , a third-party contractor , why was that done ? A lot of questions . @!HANNITY# Am I wrong in thinking this runs deeper and probably is connected to the elites , or am I jumping out too far ? @!INGRAHAM# I do n't think the White House communications team has to worry about the phones being looked at . The team , the assistant secretary or press secretary is leaking ? No , no , no . If anyone is leaking , it looks like from what we are seeing in WikiLeaks and some of the reports in the media , it 's probably someone from the intelligence agencies and likely , very sadly , the CIA . @!HANNITY# If all this turns out to be true , this could be a scandal much bigger than Watergate , could n't it ? @!INGRAHAM# Exactly . It could be , Sean , and that 's why there are a lot of former elected officials who were very concerned about allowing our intelligence agencies to get so big , so powerful , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ run so deep , they called to the deep state , how are they accountable ? Are they accountable to anybody ? @!HANNITY# This WikiLeaks revelation today coupled with an interview I did with this guy Vinnie who was a 32 year NSA veteran who is a whistleblower retired , he said every phone conversation , every text , every email of every American is locked up in metadata. @!INGRAHAM# I saw that . @!HANNITY# That 's scary . @!INGRAHAM# Go back to in person communication , Sean . @!HANNITY# That 's police state tactics . That would be frightening . All right , good to see you , Laura , as always . Up next , Monica Crowley makes her return to the program . We 'll ask her about the left 's all-out assault against anybody associated with Donald Trump , our president . And also later tonight . @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!MIKA-BRZEZINSKI , -M# This is really bad . Just for the record , we are really nervous . If people out there feel nervous , we do too . @ ( END VIDEO @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ propaganda , destroy Trump media , sinking to new lows attacking the commander-in-chief . We have Larry Elder and Ari Fleischer here with reaction , that and more on this crazy busy news night HANNITY. @!HANNITY# Welcome back to HANNITY . She is back . Our good friend of the program , conservative commentator and author , writer , Monica Crowley . Welcome back . How are you ? @!MONICA-CROWLEY , -FO# Hi , Sean . OK. @!HANNITY# All right , let me start , people may not know that you were the sister-in-law of our dear friend Alan Colmes , and my heart goes out to you and your sister . How is she doing ? @!CROWLEY# Thank you . She 's OK. @!HANNITY# How are you doing ? @!CROWLEY# She 's coping with it . Thank you for asking . Alan , was such a gentleman as everybody in his audience knows , and he was the kindest , most decent man you will ever meet . He treated everyone with the same respect and kindness whether you are the president of the United States and or the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!HANNITY# He was my friend even though I disagreed with everything he said . And I was really angry at a couple outlets . We 'll deal with that more in the future . So you were going to go to the administration . You got viciously attacked . And by the way , you 're not the only one . It 's Bannon , it 's Reince , it 's Kellyanne , it 's Steve Miller , it 's even Melania , and they 're going after Jared , they 're going after Ivanka , they even went after a 10-year-old kid . It 's pretty ugly . Now they 're going after Sebastian Gorka which is ridiculous . But it seems that anyone around the president is getting attacked . And I wanted to give you a chance , because you had n't been out there publicly for personal and other reasons , to respond to this . @!CROWLEY# Well , look , what happened to me was a despicable , straight up political hit job , OK . It 's been debunked . My editor has completely @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ very toxic , and it 's getting increasingly toxic and poisonous atmosphere of personal destruction in Washington and the media . It 's always sort of been there but now it 's at a whole new level . And this is exactly why smart and good people do not want to go into government service . I will tell you that nothing and nobody is ever going to stop me from speaking out on the issues I care about the future of this nation . There 's also a really bigger point here . @!HANNITY# Look what they did to General Flynn . @!CROWLEY# Well , and this is the bigger point . In some ways I was something of the canary in the coal mine . The attack on me was a test . What happened to me , what happened to General Flynn , what has happened to Attorney General Sessions and others is all of a piece . There is a very dangerous and very effective destabilization campaign underway against this president , his administration and his agenda . And what I hope that the president and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ just looking to delegitimize him . We often talk about that . Sure they want to do that . They want to personally destroy him , destroy his presidency , and they would like to see the man in prison . I hope that the president understands . I am not overstating this , having been a victim of this myself . They are out for blood . And the reason they have to destroy him is that Donald Trump is an alien organism that has been injected into the body politic by the American people to reform it . He must not be allowed to succeed . They have swarmed him , they have everybody around him in order to reject him out of the system just like any alien organism . He must not be allowed to succeed . And I hope that everybody around him now understands that this is a war , and that they started a long time ago , but they will not end until they get the president of the United States . @!HANNITY# I totally agree with you . By the way @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a mutual friend , Andy McCarthy . I do n't think you should answer any of these people 's questions , because they can go straight to hell . You know how I deal with stuff . I do n't care what anybody says , and I thought he did a great job in debunking the issue for you . Here 's what 's important , though , what you 're saying , very important , I see five different factions going after the president . And each one , you 've got the snowflake faction , all these protesters that are being paid in many cases to create an image that there is chaos in the country . Then you 've got to Democratic Party , obstructionists , want no part of this president succeeding because they look bad and are out of power for a long time . Then you 've got a media establishment which we know through WikiLeaks colluded in this last campaign . They never vetted Obama , they never told the truth about what a failure he 's been , that 's a big @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are weak and timid . And then the fifth part is an intelligence community that is so clearly and obviously , people within it , I have great respect for people in intelligence , but there are those in that community , the swamp , the shadow government that I talk about , the state , if you will , the deep state that we talk about , they 're out for blood . And this is five significant , powerful establishment forces that are lined up against this president . This is not a game . They want to destroy him , delegitimize him , and get him out if they can . @!CROWLEY# They want him in prison . And this is what we need to understand . @!HANNITY# So true . @!CROWLEY# David Brock and some of these organizations have already raised tens of millions of dollars for an impeachment process . Then they want jail to the chief . They need to understand that this is a war . We are so far beyond normal politics , Sean , we are in a very dangerous moment @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a man of strong constitution , he was able to survive all of this during the campaign and get elected president . When you 're president and you are faced with the kind of monolithic opposition you 're talking about , plus a federal bureaucracy that is completely out to undermine him every day , the intelligence community that is engaged in some of this as well that we have heard , I hope to God that he is strong enough to withstand this . Because if he succeeds , the country changes for the good , and they must not allow that to happen . @!HANNITY# What a strong , powerful admonition . We missed you . We 're so sorry about Alan . My best to you and your family . You know how I feel about all of you . On a busy news night , what 's on next on it HANNITY ? This . @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!BRZEZINSKI# This is really bad . Just for the record , we are all really nervous . So if people out there and feel nervous @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ) @!HANNITY# Joe , give Mika a hug . You 've got the alt-left propaganda , destroy Trump media , well , they need to now admit that they 're not unbiased journalist . They have a role in this game . We 'll examine that . We 'll get reaction from Larry Elder and Ari Fleischer straight ahead . @!HANNITY# Welcome back to HANNITY . So they alt-left propaganda , destroy Trump at all costs media , they 're working overtime to take down the Trump administration . Listen to MSNBC 's Mika Brzezinski . She seemed to be fighting back tears yesterday she was so upset talking about President Trump . Watch this . @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!BRZEZINSKI# Were at a low point in American history . And I do n't know how anybody can defend this president , even if it 's their job . Like you 've got to have a job after this . You 've got to look in the mirror after this . This is not funny . This is really bad . Just for the record , we 're @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , we do too . We do n't think this is funny . @ ( END VIDEO CLIP ) @!HANNITY# Really ? Maybe overwrought there . And then CNN 's Anderson Cooper says he has muted President Trump on Twitter . Let 's look at more of the liberal media . @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!ANDERSON-COOPER , -C# I 've actually muted the president on Twitter , do n't tell them . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE# What ? @!COOPER# I 've muted him . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE# You can do that ? @!COOPER# Yes . When you get annoying people tweeting you , you do n't want to delete because then that tells them you 've deleted them . So if you just mute them , they think you 're still following them and you do n't actually see their tweets . I just do n't want to have that drama in my life . @(LAUGHTER) @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE# You have to accept that he 's president . You have to accept that he 's president . @!COOPER# Of course I do . I have great respect for the president . I just do n't @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ VIDEO CLIP ) @!HANNITY# There is your fair , your balanced , unbiased journalist . Maybe they should stop pretending that and be who they are , radical , lazy leftist activists on TV . Joining us now with reaction , Salem nationally syndicated radio talk show host Larry Elder who is laughing , and former White House press secretary Ari Fleischer . All right , Ari , is that fair and balanced or are they any different -- @(LAUGHTER) @!HANNITY# Is that fair and balanced ? Poor Mika , somebody get her either a stiff drink or a padded room . Help her out . @!ARI-FLEISCHER , -FOR# Look , Sean , as a former press secretary , my job is to deal with all reporters . And I do and I continue to enjoy doing that . But let me also add , Republicans always have to work twice as hard as Democrats to get a fair break in the press , and Donald Trump is to work three times as hard . And no , it 's not fair and balanced . You have to be a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the idea of professional journalists , neutral journalists saying they 're muting a president , a news source . And Mika is an opinion journalist , so she 's in a bit of a different category . But people should not be nervous . I said this repeatedly and I say it when I do her show . Let it play out . Let 's see what Donald Trump can do . @!HANNITY# She did n't she was nervous when a guy palled around with an unrepentant terrorist became president . I do n't remember going deep in that story like I did . Then President Obama was only asked one time during the campaign . Larry , I know you 're laughing . Some of this is funny , I 've got to admit . But on another level , really , they do want to destroy Trump . They want to destroy the president . They are trying to delegitimize him and they want to stop his agenda , and at most , if they 're lucky , they want him out of office . @!LARRY-ELDER , -SALEM# @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is that under the Obamacare replacement plan whatever bothering her is probably covered . what 's going on here is a deep-seated fear that this SOB might actually be successful . God forbid we get a four percent GDP growth as was the case with Ronald Reagan . Ronald Reagan when he ran for reelection took 49 states . What did he do ? Cut taxes , continued deregulation , and slowed down the rate of nondefense government spending , all of which Donald Trump is doing . You put that together , we get a four percent GDP , none of this stuff will matter . Nobody will care about what Mike Brzezinski said or Don Lemon or Katy Tur , or any of the other people that are frankly quite hysterical over this presidency . @!HANNITY# The bottom line , though , Ari , is I have said journalism is dead . Look at , for example , " The New York Times . " " The New York Times " reported that the president was wiretapped . They did it multiple times as did the BBC , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ mainstream media news . The president acknowledges what they reported and somehow he 's to blame . When are they going to ever have some introspection , some self- examination as it relates to colluding with Hillary Clinton ? And if they 're going to blame Trump for reporting and talking about what they report , when are they going to take the same on themselves ? It 's kind of hypocritical , is n't it . @!FLEISCHER# It will never happen , Sean . And I 'm in a little bit of a different position on this in terms of my viewpoint . I do n't think they 're dead , but they severely wounded themselves , and the American people agree with that . @!HANNITY# You agree they colluded with Hillary . Would you agree they did n't vet Obama ? @!FLEISCHER# Of course . You have them sharing questions for a debate , that happened on the CNN in one instance . And that never should have happened . And so the point is the press is not neutral . The press is biased . I 've @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ from Capitol Hill all the way to the White House . It 's far worse with Donald Trump . And that 's the error we 're in now . But look at a day like today . Today was the Trump presidency is and should be about , repealing and replacing Obamacare . Larry is right , these are the big issues upon which President Trump 's presidency is going to rise or fall , and today has been a very good day for Donald Trump . @!HANNITY# that 's good with one caveat , he 's got a lot of conservative opposition . they should have built the consensus plan before they released it . That 's my own personal view . Secretary Price was very clear that it 's going to happen in three phases and all of the critics will be included in the end . Larry , I say that if Donald Trump checks off that promise list and gets it done , he walks into reelection in spite of all the noise that you hear everywhere . @!ELDER# I agree with that 100 percent . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , we already knew that . It 's another thing for the media to collude . And because of WikiLeaks we found out " The New York Times , " " The Washington Post " staffers for Jake Tapper at CNN , Wolf Blitzer , Dana Milbank , the columnist with " The Washington Post , " contacting the DNC , getting ideas , getting suggestions . This is collusion . This is far beyond just simply having a sympathetic and political agreement with the left . These are people who are literally trying to get Republicans defeated . I 've never seen the like of it . And one of the things Donald Trump has done that no other president has done is call them on it , put them on notice , and let people know that they are not just spies , that they are actively trying to stop Republicans . And no one 's done that before , and I salute Mr. Trump for having done that . @!HANNITY# Guys , great segment , thank you both for being with us , always appreciate you being @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ help , an important question of the day . And yes , some mean , horrible HANNITY hotline voice mails from you . We 'll get to that straight ahead . @!HANNITY# Welcome back to HANNITY . It is time for our " Question of the Day . " So what do you think of the Republican health care plan ? Do you agree with me it needs changes ? I believe it does . I believe it will happen . Just go to Facebook.com/SeanHannity , @SeanHannity on Twitter , let us know what you think . All right , hit me with your best shot . Be as mean as you need to be . I can handle whatever you 've got . These are the messages left on the HANNITY hotline . @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL# Hi , Sean , I have a poem for you . The HANNITY hotline is awesome . Let 's make our voice heard from every corner of the land on the abstract to the absurd . Your show is very balanced . You deal with only facts . That @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Please call the HANNITY hotline . It 's where political junkies opine . Some offer praise , laud , encourage , and some just call to whine . God bless you , Sean . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE# Sean Hannity , you are the most biased , idiotic reporter I 've ever heard in my entire life . Will you ever not have Obama 's name in your mouth ? You continue to bash this man who is not even in office anymore . This probably wo n't reach air but you should go jump off of a bridge today . @ ( END VIDEO CLIP ) @!HANNITY# I 'm running right after the show . I 'll jump off the nearest bridge I find . Kathy , thank you for your nice phone . You want to be mean like Elliot ? Hit me with your best shot . You see the number on your screen , 877-225-8587 . That is all the time we have left this evening . Hope you set your DVR , never miss an episode . Back here tomorrow night , thanks for being with us.

@@4172641 @!JAMES-ROSEN , -FOX-NCHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT : Tucker , good to be with you . Many Trump supporters , conservatives and legal experts tonight are questioning the timing and particularly the scope of this investigation into the conduct of FBI Director James Comey . That will be carried out by the Justice Department 's Inspector General . Chief among these skeptics is the President-elect himself who tweeted before dawn and I quote , " What are Hillary Clinton 's people complaining about with respect to the FBI ? Based on the information they had , she should never been allowed to run . Guilty as hell , " Mr. Trump said , " They were very nice to her . She lost because she campaigned in the wrong states , no enthusiasm . " Investigators will prove Comey 's public statements about the Hillary Clinton email investigation . The tons of leaks out of the bureau this past fall and the letters that Comey sent to Congress just days before the election re-opening . And then closing the case again . Observers from disparate points along the political spectrum today urged Comey to resign . @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ director of such an important institution when that trust is no longer there . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE# the fate of the people of the FBI are somewhat shaken in their leadership . And the fate of the country and the director of the FBI is somewhat peerless . Given all of that , he ought to spend more time with his family . @ ( END VIDEO CLIP ) @!ROSEN# The IG probe will notably not include the conduct of Attorney General Loretta Lynch who was forced defectively to recuse herself from the Clinton email case when it was disclosed that the Attorney General had met privately with former President Bill Clinton . Many Republicans see the IG probe as simply an attempt to delegitimize Mr. Trump before he takes office . @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!ELLIOT-BERKE , -PRES# If the scope is n't limited to the director of the FBI 's conduct , then they have a point . I mean , why not look at the entire circumstances here ? Why not look at what Attorney General Lynch did , the meetings that she held , her non-recusal @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ( END VIDEO CLIP ) @!ROSEN# So , in short , Tucker , you ask me what is this all about . Experts I 've spoken to said , yes , Director Comey 's conduct throughout this case , a very key decisions he made a various points are precisely the kind of things especially in a such a high-profile case that the Inspector General would investigate . But it is the circumscribing of this case , the sort of narrowing just to Comey that bothers conservatives . @!CARLSON# Right . Where is Loretta Lynch 's component -- @!ROSEN# Among other things . Yes . @!CARLSON# Among other things . James , thanks a lot . @!ROSEN# You bet . I appreciate it . @!CARLSON# Well , Hillary Clinton 's defeat in November might have prompted some soul-searching in the American press . Instead , the blame has been placed on among other things , an alleged plague of fake news . And now with one week until the inauguration , lawmakers are trying to use the scourge of fake news to influence your kids in school . California Assemblyman @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ require schools to teach civic online reasoning in California . The goal to tell students what news is fake , what is real , and shape their beliefs accordingly . Assemblyman Gomez joins us now . Assemblyman , thanks for coming on . @!JIMMY-GOMEZ , -CALIF# Thank you , Tucker . @!CARLSON# So , you have written this piece of legislation that commands , if passed , will command the schools to do this . To teach , quote , " The ability to judge the credibility and quality of the information found on internet web sites including social media . " How exactly will they do that ? To tell fake from real ? @!GOMEZ# So , Tucker , my bill , AB 155 , the fake news act of 2017 directs the instructional quality commission to develop a curriculum with experts in education on civic online curriculum , civic online reasoning and how to include that in two different courses . Civics , history , mathematics and science . And it will basically allow them to discern how do you break apart information in the digital age that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . So , they can break it apart and decide for themselves what is credible and what is not . @!CARLSON# Okay . But how will they do that ? I mean , how do you tell a story that is fake from one that is real and what does it mean to be fake ? @!GOMEZ# Well , one of the thing that I grew up learning is how do you use footnotes and citations in order to verify the facts that I was reading . One of the things that we know is that online sources , we ca n't really do that . It is very difficult . So , one of the things it would do is given the skills on how to research who owns a particular domain name . You know , is it the real FOX News twitter handle with the checkmark , or it is n't ? Because a lot of people are having a tough time telling , is this really FOX News ? Or is this some other site ? Often times , people believe the false site or the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . So , this is n't about telling them what to believe , it 's just giving them the skills so that they can actually distinguish for themselves what is real and what is fake . @!CARLSON# But I do n't understand what that means to be false . I mean , does that mean that the content on the site is false if you do n't like the domain name ? I mean , what is false mean ? @!GOMEZ# No . It means that , you know , one of the things , it 's not about -- false mean sometimes there are some websites that give you a little bit of real information , a little bit of fake information , and they kind of blur it all together . I know FOX News would never do that . You guys try to give them the real facts just like every other news station according to their mission . Right ? So , we are not here to basically say that this is automatically fake news . But we want people to look at every piece of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ been doing for a long time . With a critical eye . And start asking more questions . Is this something that I should believe , is it a reputable source ? Do the facts back up the claims ? @!CARLSON# I mean , a lot of questions come to mind . First among them , why ca n't they do that themselves ? Why they 're assuming they do n't already do that ? Who are you to make that decision ? But you keep dodging the core question which is , how do you know what is fake and what is real ? I mean , that is the center of this . It is the fake news bill . What is fake news ? And I 'm still -- I 'm not getting it from what you just said . @!GOMEZ# Well , there -- @!CARLSON# I mean , for example , BuzzFeed , which is a big website , billion dollar website just released a 35 page dossier reportedly on Donald Trump . Reportedly from Russia . Is that fake or real in your judgment ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do is look at every story with a critical eye . And then I try to do more research on it . I do n't automatically believe everything that I read . @!CARLSON# Okay . @!GOMEZ# But I do want to make sure that we kind of break it apart . I want our students to be prepared . You know , this is a digital age where we get more of our information through online and social media resources than we do from books and newspapers . In the past , we did n't even have to question books and newspapers but for some reason , we 're in an age where people think just because they read it online , they believe it is real . And that is a big problem because if we can agree -- @!CARLSON# Can I stop you there ? How do you know that people believe -- I mean , you seem to have a pretty low opinion of the intelligence of your constituents . Why do you think that the people who vote for you , your voters in California believe @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? That they are that dumb ? @!GOMEZ# Carlson , you are putting words in my mouth . @!CARLSON# You just said , people believe what they read and they shouldn't. @!GOMEZ# What we are trying to do is prepare -- what we are trying to do is prepare our youth for a digital age . You know , there is nothing wrong with it . Like when technology was changing and people started using computers , we wanted them to learn how to use a computer so that they can be competitive , so they can actually be able to go and get a job , and be able to adapt to the changing environment . It 's the same thing . We are trying to make sure that our kids have the skills necessary to distinguish what information from different sources -- to take it , to analyze it , and then decide for themselves . For themselves , what is the real story and what is a fake story . @!CARLSON# Here is the problem . Valued , judgment come into place , subjective judgments play a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . What is true and what is false . And I keep asking you to explain the criteria for making that determination . And you are not . Either because you do n't know what it is yourself , I asked you , do you believe for example the dossier that BuzzFeed and CNN ran with two days ago was real and fake . And you would n't answer . So , I see a problem here . @!GOMEZ# Because I have n't -- first , I have n't read it . Number one . Number two , I am not going to make a claim on something I have n't read and I have n't had a chance to actually verify . @!CARLSON# Okay . That 's fair . That 's totally fine . But you still -- no and I would n't ask you to . But you still have n't answered the key question which is , what is it mean to be fake news ? @!GOMEZ# Well , it 's interesting -- @!CARLSON# And I am worried because that you have a power , you 're @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ should be disregarded . Why would that make me nervous ? @!GOMEZ# No , I 'm not saying that some news should be disregarded because they provide a particular point of view . That is what you 're implying . I 'm not implying that . What I 'm telling you is that people do need to know , is this story that they are reading on Facebook or Twitter ? Is this actually like the headline -- if they read the headline -- is this a headline they actually used from a particular story five months ago that they are just using because it 's catchy and it actually gets people 's attention ? @!CARLSON# Right . @!GOMEZ# Is it actually the fact that -- they saying that Tucker Carlson went to school in Alabama , which I do n't know if you did , is that real ? So , is that something they should actually be able to verify ? @!CARLSON# Okay . my point -- that people under 18 are probably a little more sophisticated about digital media than either you or I. Here 's what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Los Angeles , which you represent , almost none of the kids know how to do math . Twenty nine percent of the students in Los Angeles unified school district met the math standards last year , among Black students , it was 18 percent . So , why would you be spending any time on fake news which you can even defined when only 18 percent of your African-American students can do math up to us standards . Should you be more worried about that or no ? @!GOMEZ# Tucker , what we tried to do is make sure that we provide the curriculum that the school districts want to implore . So , we are not mandating that under my bill , AB 155 that they have to incorporate the civil online reasoning . It basically said that they 're going to develop a curriculum with the experts with public input , regarding civil online reasoning and then the school districts have a choice that they want to include it or not . We are not mandating it . We are actually giving them an option and that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ introduced any bills to improve the math scores in your district ? Eighteen percent of black kids meet the standards . How many piece legislation have you introduced to improve that number ? @!GOMEZ# Hey , Tucker , that 's -- I 've done different things to make sure that we invest more dollars into the classrooms and disadvantaged students so that the money stays there , so that they do improve their test scores . @!CARLSON# Yes . But they 're not . @!GOMEZ# And we have seen them improved their test scores at the time . So , these are two different things . And I believe that you can actually accomplish both at the same time . @!CARLSON# Well , you ca n't accomplish it . I just read the test scores from the LA , you know , from their school district and they are going down unfortunately . And that 's sad . Thanks a lot Assemblyman , we appreciate you . @!GOMEZ# Thank you . @!CARLSON# Well , Donald Trump 's eminent inauguration continues to drive his opponents off the edge . Now Georgia @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's presidency as legitimate . When asked today whether he would try to develop a relationship with the new President for the good of the country , Lewis said this . @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!REP-JOHN-LEWIS-(D)# I believe in forgiveness , I believe in tremendous work that people do . It 's going to be hard . It will be difficult . I do n't see this President-elect as a legitimate president . the Russians participated in helping this man get elected . And they helped destroy the candidacy of Hillary Clinton . @ ( END VIDEO CLIP ) @!CARLSON# Well , because of Trump 's supposed illegitimacy , Lewis says , he plans to join five other Democrats in boycotting the inauguration next week . Well , Donald Trump 's plan to drain the swamp in Washington includes banning all former members of Congress for lobbying for five years once they leave . But the Speaker of the House Paul Ryan is not onboard during a town hall over at CNN on Thursday . Ryan describes Trump 's proposal as , quote , " dangerous . " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ real threat is the personal wealth of lawmakers ? Joining us now , the co-host of " THE FIVE , " and one of our favorite people , Kimberly Guilfoyle . Kimberly , it 's great to see you . @!**25;681;TOOLONG , " THE FIVE " : Hi , Tucker . Great to see you . @!CARLSON# So , I do n't want to pile on the Speaker of the House , who might take us on the right track on most things . @!GUILFOYLE# Certainly . @!CARLSON# But Donald Trump was elected in part to clean up Washington . Which is self-evidently corrupt . Voters believed that . I lived here . I can tell you they 're right . And so , it 's a little strange that a pretty common sense provision like banning members of Congress from cashing in at the expense of taxpayers would be described by the Speaker as , quote , " dangerous . " What do you think he meant by that ? @!GUILFOYLE# Yes . it is a little bit disconcerting , is n't it ? Because , you know , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sure that you admire . that he has the best interest of the country at heart . But when you see President-elect Donald Trump talking about and as part of the drain the swamp movement , he knows what he 's talking about . Because he wants to make sure that there is an ethical , clear line . That you do n't have people joining in terms of their public service and civic service in order to profit on the other end . @!CARLSON# That is right . @!GUILFOYLE# You want people to be genuine in spirit and heart . And they want to be all in because they want to act in the best interest with the utmost ethics and propriety in terms of the country . So people are doing this only to be able to cash in on deals and get a bigger better deal on the other end , there is a problem on that the goal post is n't there . So , you have to give pause for a moment with all due respect , when the Speaker says this . Because I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ saying let 's make it purer , let 's make it clean so that we get the best and brightest , of the purest of heart to try and invest in the fabric and the skin of this country so that we are all the beneficiaries . It is a public service and it is deemed as such for a reason . @!CARLSON# Well , of course . So , just to be fair , I want to read the speaker 's words . So our viewers can assess them . He said this about the lobbying -- but if he wanted to become an advocate for the cancer society ? What if he want after he retired to help your local hospital system and be on their board to support them ? And then go and get legislation . We tried to get Speaker Ryan to respond directly and he was busy feeding war orphans and trying to kill lupus , so he was n't here of course to respond . @!GUILFOYLE# Nice test . @!CARLSON# But that 's with respect . That 's ludicrous . I live among @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not there to help the cancer society , they are there to get rich . Which is their right of course . But let 's not pretend that this lobbying band would put a lot of these guys out of the Mother Teresa business . Because it wouldn't. @!GUILFOYLE# No . Let 's be honest . It may be a little bit of like a delay in the game , like sort of like a little bit of a temporary rainout but it would n't preclude them from being able to benefit in the future . And of course , in a free and Democratic society . That is what we want . We want people to be invested in this country , to dedicate themselves , to give a public service and then yes . We want them to be able to provide for their families on the other end . But with due measure and to be circumspect in terms of how they proceed on that path . And that is the intent of what the President-elect is just saying and also as a realist , that Speaker @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ bacon on the plate , Tucker . @!CARLSON# Well , yes , but the effect comes at our expense . I mean , that 's why all of those mandates are on ObamaCare . That 's why everyone but me and you is enjoying some sort of esoteric tax break that allows them to buy a new plane . I mean , lobbyists are doing that . I 'm sorry , it 's true . Kimberly -- @!GUILFOYLE# No . But you 're right . Yes , yes , yes , there is lack of purity in the process . We shall cleanse . @(LAUGHTER) @!CARLSON# We shall cleanse . I hope they do . Thanks a lot , Kimberly . Great to see you . @!GUILFOYLE# Always a pleasure . @!CARLSON# Up next , a fear over an alleged Russian hacking framed the Kremlin as the enemy of America . Russia expert Steven Cohen joins us to explain what the two countries could gain through renewed engagement . Something he says . Also , driverless cars coming to the state of Arizona . Sounds great . And it will @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that state . What is going to happen to those who drive for a living ? What are they going to do when their jobs disappear ? @!CARLSON# Most Americans drive every day . And some of them drive for a living . A lot of them , actually . From cabbies , tracks , to bus drivers , and literally millions of Americans earn a living behind the wheel . But the driverless car will kill these jobs . Recently , Uber driverless cars in the streets of Arizona at the invitation of Governor Doug Ducey . Do you think about the consequences to American jobs ? We asked him that question . @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!CARLSON# Thanks for joining us , Governor . I appreciate it . I understand what you are trying to do with this driverless technology . California has too much regulation . Arizona has less . And so business naturally goes to Arizona and you also think it 's an interesting transform of technology . I agree with all that . But my question is , what is going to happen @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are an awful lot of them . @!GOV-DOUG-DUCEY-(R)# Well , Tucker , we 're glad that companies that are innovative and breakthrough in technology are looking to Arizona versus California because we are more business friendly . @!CARLSON# Yes . @!DUCEY# We have less regulation , a better tax environment and we have concern as well for jobs and what is going to happen inside of our economy . But the sounds a little bit like what happened when uber came the first time . Everyone said that this would hurt jobs , that it would hurt taxi drivers . And what we 've seen is more jobs added to the economy . So , this is a test right now , they are testing this technology . They are actually hiring people so that they can sit in the front sit of their car that pay them $20 an hour so they can run the task . This technology is n't going to be ready this year or next year , and likely the year after . @!CARLSON# Right . @!DUCEY# There 's many people that will never get @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , we think this is good technology , you know , it also helps the disabled . The blind , the elderly , people that ca n't drive . So , there are a lot of conveniences that are possible here . But they have n't come to a fruition yet . @!CARLSON# Right . And there 's a lot that 's good about it . But on the other hand , they are not going to be paying people to drive an autonomous car for long by definition the whole point is to lower labor cost . And this is not uber . The scale is different . I mean , in the majority of states , 29 out of 50 , the single most common job is driving for a living . And I believe in this country is the single most common job for many with a high school diploma . So , this is millions and millions of people who are going to be out of work if this technology proceeds as it apparently is . Why should the government be making it easier for this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do n't think that its government that 's making it easier , what government is doing , what we are doing in Arizona is simply getting out of the way . This is technology that has n't been proven out yet . But you can either embrace this technology as the state or you can try to shut it down and in Arizona , we are going to be welcoming to new ideas . @!CARLSON# Right . @!DUCEY# Okay . So , the Obama administration has been subsiding this , the Department of Transportation , and so they have every reason to pretend there is no downside . And yet a White House report from last month acknowledged that a lot of this country 's most vulnerable employees are going to be out of work . And then it will increase income inequality . That is their position . So , even they are admitting that . Should n't the companies benefiting from these do something , I 'm not sure what , to alleviate the social dislocation this technology is going to cause . @!DUCEY# Well , the best @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ an economy where jobs are being created and in Arizona , we 've created or the academy has created 100,000 new jobs over the last two years . So , we are doing some things to write , we have openings in the service economy as well . So , in terms of what government should be doing to punish companies for new technologies , I do n't know that that is something that I am in favor of . I want to see an economy that is creating new jobs and opportunities so people have options as we have these conveniences and innovations come to us. @!CARLSON# Right . But not all new technologies produce more jobs than they destroy . In fact , in the last 20 years we 've seen net job loss because of technology . I 'm not against technology . It 's cool . It increases efficiency . But it does n't increase jobs or pay . So , those service industry jobs you mentioned pay less than driving jobs on average . And so the people who make less are more dependent upon @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ So more housing vouchers . More unemployment insurance . More disability . More flat out welfare . The public bares those costs . @!DUCEY# We want to put people to work , we have an economy that is creating jobs here . This is something we 're testing . Here Tucker , we are going to continue to test it and we 're going to continue to attract jobs to our economy . And I mean , you are going to see some turnover . If this is successful . But you will see other opportunities to maintain these vehicles . You will see continual people driving other people . So , I am hopeful as to what is possible here . But at the same time , this is a technology that is moving forward . @!CARLSON# You are absolutely right on all of that , And you are optimistic which I appreciate . Let me ask you one question that I 've been asking a lot of people recently on TV , who is thinking about what happens to all these people ? Not just the drivers displaced @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ robotics , by physicians displaced by supercomputers . All the people whose jobs are going away because of technology . What are they going to do and who is thinking about that ? Do you know anyone who 's thinking about it ? @!DUCEY# Well , I am thinking about Arizonans every day and what is best for them . How I can create more jobs for kids who graduate from high school and college . So , this going to be in a unique and innovative economy , these opportunities are going to be there . But there 's going to be some change . We need to be thinking ahead about how we get people working and employed . @!CARLSON# Yes . Poor California . You are already stealing all of their people . Governor , thanks a lot . @!DUCEY# We will continue . Thank you , Tucker . @!CARLSON# That is true . Well , thanks a lot . @ ( END VIDEO CLIP ) @!CARLSON# Up next , how the cold war comeback so soon in Washington as 1985 again . Russia expert Stephen Cohen @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ trying to prevent President Trump from making a deal with Vladimir Putin . He joins us next to explain why exactly . @!CARLSON# Well , no matter how many times they get ridiculed for it , Hollywood celebrities keep making excruciating videos telling the rest of Americans what to think particularly about Donald Trump . It 's self- awareness not their strong suit . Well , this time the celebrity Justice League gathered to sing the song , " I Will Survive , " to show their continued defiance towards the incoming administration . Here 's a clip if you can stand it . @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL# Did you think I 'd crumble -- @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE# Did you think I 'd lay down and die -- @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL# No , no , not I -- @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL# I will survive . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE# Oh , as long as I know how to love , I know I stay alive . @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL# I 've got all my life to live . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE# And I 've got all my love to give . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE# And I will survive . @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL# I will @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ survive ! @ ( END VIDEO CLIP ) @!CARLSON# So good , I 'd never want that to end . @(LAUGHTER) Well , oddly , I will survive of course is about a woman escaping an ex- boyfriend . this video was made about the wrong president . We will ask . Well , the Washington establishment and its media lackeys remain obsessed with Russian hacking and its alleged influence to November 's elections . Some have even stooped to pushing an unverified document , dossier , claiming Trump has been compromised by Russian intelligence . Russia is the biggest bogeyman that 's been in years , but at the same time few people have been talking about its actual thinking , what are Russia 's motives , if any ? What could they gain or lose by working with the Trump administration ? In other words , nobody talking about it knows anything about Russia . Stephen Cohen does . He is a contributing editor at " The Nation " and the professor emeritus of Russian studies at NYU . He used teach at Princeton . ( INAUDIBLE ) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ thanks for coming on . @!STEPHEN-COHEN , -CON# So , what could possibly be on your mind tonight ? Whether or not we 're actually going to survive ? @!CARLSON# Well , there is this amazing moment and I 'm sure you saw it during the Tillerson -- Rex Tillerson hearings in the Senate . When Marco Rubio , a Florida Republican , essentially demanded that Tillerson denounce Vladimir Putin as a war criminal . Now , I do n't know -- I 'll be candid with you , I do n't know much about Vladimir Putin 's war record and perhaps he is war criminal . I don ' know . But I was so struck by Rubio 's insistence that Tillerson concede that he was . Would America gain something , do you think , from an incoming Secretary of State calling the Russian head of state a war criminal ? @!COHEN# No , because it would end what president-elect Trump says he wants to do . And that 's create a new policy toward Russia that we use to call they taunt ( ph ) , cooperation @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ very simple decision in front of us . Perhaps the worst relationship with Russia in our time perils anywhere from the Baltic to Ukraine to Syria to guys running around as you and I talk tonight , Tucker , terrorists looking for radioactive material to make bombs and if they set them off , we wo n't be able to inhabit those places for a generation . Trump seems to understand this . He seems to understand that we ca n't deal with these problems without Russian cooperation . And meanwhile , you get in this country , already , a bloodied war against Trump hardly because he wants to do this . Did I hear Representative Lewis saying on your broadcasts a few minutes ago that he does n't recognize Trump as a legitimate president ? @!CARLSON# That 's right . @!COHEN# Well if that 's the case then what about the leaders of the states Trump has to deal with around the world ? Are they supposed to regard Trump as an illegitimate president ? @!CARLSON# Well Trump will have control of our nuclear arsenal so they will @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I 'm wondering about the motive here . Obviously some of it is to tarnish Trump before he takes office . But the antipathy toward Russia seems real from a lot of the ideologues in process ( ph ) and probably Senator Rubio is one of them . And I 'm not degrading . I 'm just trying to understand it . Why ? Why are they so anti-Russia ? With all the threats we face , why Russia ? @!COHEN# Well , in a word , and again let me take the political Fifth Amendment . I 'm not a partisan of Trump . I 'm not a partisan of Putin . I 'm a partisan of American national security . They do n't know the dangers . They do n't know Putin 's real role in the world . He is far from the greatest threat to America . Think back . Well , you probably were n't born then , but you know the history . Remember what Ronald Reagan did . He had called . He had risen to power . He had embraced the idea @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in 1985 , the reasons -- good reasons of his own -- he decided he wanted to do a grand daytime with the new Soviet leader , Mikhail Gorbachev . And you do n't remember but I will tell you that his own party , the Republican Party savaged him , said he was betraying the cause . @!CARLSON# I remember . @!COHEN# They could n't attack his character as they do Trump . But can you imagine -- can you imagine if Reagan had been so slurred ( ph ) in the American press ? So , Reagan is actually the model for Trump . At that time , it with the evil empire . Today , Putin is the Darth Vader of the east . It is n't true . I mean , the threat that Putin represents to the United States , I would rank probably would n't make the top five . But they 're testifying in Congress that it 's number one -- @!CARLSON# Yes . @!COHEN# And this is a threat to our own national security . Look -- @!CARLSON# They seem that way @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ but I just want to affirm as a non-Russian expert , the way you 're saying comports with common sense . It does seem like hysteria has seized D.C. @!COHEN# And we 're in danger as a result . @!CARLSON# It seems that way . Professor Cohen , thank you so much for joining us . Good to see you . Up next , two men are trying to restore the vote to 1.7 million ex-felons in the state of Florida . If they succeed , it could cause a seismic shift in national politics . There joining us in a minute to explain why we need to do it . Stay tuned . @!CARLSON# Well the inauguration is not just a week away and the Secret Service is working phonetically to make it one of the most secure events in history , but they 're concerned . ( INAUDIBLE ) security situation here in Washington , we 're joined by Fox News chief intelligence correspondent Catherine Herridge . Good to see you Catherine . How worried are they ? @!CATHERINE-HERRIDGE : Well , look Tucker , there are two @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ago . I 'd put it this way . They 're very focused on the lone wolf actor and what you 'll see along the inauguration route and the sort of secured perimeter -- large dump trucks with cement or sand . Kind of what we saw in Time Squared for New Year 's Eve and also the Macy 's Thanksgiving Day Parade . That 's to prevent these ISIS inspired terrorists from using trucks as weapons to mow down civilians . The second change is concern about UAV 's or drones . And they have an ability to deliver a payload . So , we went to the Secret Service site at Maryland where they were doing training this week . And what you can see there on the screen is they use a UAV , in this case , it 's a mock up to do the delivery of a chemical agent . So that 's the kind of scenario that they 're also prepared for . So , that thing that 's so unique about this event is that they have to really be ready for every @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the paved ( ph ) route , they got to know how to deal with that . And they also have to know how to deal with someone who 's a lone wolf or even the use of a chemical agent . @!CARLSON# So without being specific you can reassure us that it is possible to prepare for the UAV gas attack . @!HERRIDGE# Yes , it is . Yes , based on their training . That 's one of the things that they do . They also do the exercises you were just seeing in the video but they also do what are called tabletop ( ph ) exercises , sort of like what it is that we 're doing right here . You kind of talk through different scenarios and it is a way to make sure everyone is on the same page as sort of very reinforcing a tabletop and then also a drill at a site like we saw out in Maryland . @!CARLSON# Catherine Herridge , who works longer hours than anyone in this building . @!HERRIDGE# No , except you . I 'm dedicated @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Catherine . It 's great to see you . Well , three U.S. states deprive convicted felons of the right to vote for the rest of their lives . One of those is Florida and they are 1.7 estimated million people who are disenfranchised due to a prior felony conviction . Florida has been decided by fewer than 200,000 votes in three of the past five presidential races . So , it 's a meaningful number . Could these lost votes be having a big effect on the outcome of presidential elections ? Joining us now , two men who served their time . They say they should be able to vote again . If they succeed , could votes like theirs swing the 2020 elections ? Joining us now , Desmond Meade and Neil Volz , both of them with felony convictions , both campaigning to return the franchise to Florida felons . It 's great to see you both . I 've got to say I have mixed feelings on this topic but Desmond , the question that always comes immediately to mind with restoring the vote to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you to carry a gun so why would we trust you to choose the next president ? @!DESMOND-MEADE , -PRE# Well , first of all good evening , Tucker and thank you for having us on the show . You know , we 're really excited about what 's going on in Florida because it 's a group of ordinary American citizens from all walks of life , from all political persuasion , that believe in second chances , that believe in having a more inclusive democracy , that believes in just fairness , you know . And when you talk about America , you know , I 'm reminded of George Bush -- George W. Bush 's when he said that America is a nation of second chances . And when that door in prison open , that we society should do everything it can to help facilitate a successful re-entry because it 's society 's best interests . It helps to increase public safety , it increases contributors to the tax space and it 's all about fairness . This is a country of second chances . @!CARLSON# @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that 's why as I said , I have mix feelings in this because I believe in redemption , and I mean that . But you did n't answer the question which is , if we do n't trust you to have a firearm or to serve on a jury , or to serve in the military , or to serve as a teacher , why would we trust you enough to make a decision as profound as who the next president is going to be ? @!NEIL-VOLZ , -MEMBER , # Let me it take a crack at that , Tucker -- @!CARLSON# Thank you . @!VOLZ# -- and thanks a lot for having us on . We do n't really have an opinion on that , but what I like to tell you is -- @!CARLSON# Why ? @!VOLZ# -- that according to the Florida Parole Commission , people who are - - people involved are three times less likely to re-offend if they 've had their voting rights restored . We think that 's a huge deal . Why is that ? It 's a huge deal @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the cycle of crime which means we can have safer communities in Florida . It also shows that the individual who is trying to grasp at that second chance , something we 're all familiar with , that that allows people with better opportunity to restore their families to re-engage with their communities , get jobs . And we think that 's a win-win worth focusing on . And that 's what we 're focused on right now because we say this will make for a better Florida . @!CARLSON# that 's great , but it does n't prove it by the way . It 's suggestive but I 'm willing to believe it . But you 're not answering the core question , which is this is not just about the felons , it 's about the other 325 million people who live in this country who want the best possible government they can get . And I find it a little odd that the Democratic Party pushes so hard for enfranchisement for felons without ever answering the obvious question which is will get us wiser , more capable @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do , when you talk about people that are pushing this , what I see is that when Charlie Crist was governor of Florida and over 155,000 people were able to have their rights restored , he was a Republican at that time . We 're not saying the first changes in Virginia , the governor and the attorney general were Republican . And the biggest proponent for this is Senator Rand Paul who has been a champion for this cause for quite a number of years . And so I know -- @!CARLSON# Then I will ask him -- I will ask him the same question then . I mean can you re-assure me because this affects my life too . I 'm going to have to live under the president that you choose . And so will this make it more likely that we get better politicians , I mean that 's a fair question @!VOLZ# Well , and is it -- that is the goal , right . We want to have a better society and so for us , we look at those nearly 2 million @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that those are 2 million people , those are 2 million families . Those are 2 million , you know , stories . If you 're a person ( INAUDIBLE ) like me , those are 2 million sons and daughters of God . People with potential and that potential right now , Tucker , is sitting on the sideline in far too many instances . And we want to help those people get back onto the game so that they can really help make us a better Florida . @!CARLSON# But wait a second Neil . You 're making me less sympathetic to your case which I 'm -- I 'm sympathetic to you . I want to see -- I had lunch the other day with a felon . He 's a good friend of mine . I want them back in society . But I also just wonder why you care more about voting than you do about your ability again to serve in the military or to serve on the jury or to be a teacher or a cop or fireman . All these are barred @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ felons to full citizenship , why is it just voting that we 're focused on ? What is so ( INAUDIBLE ) . @(CROSSTALK) @!MEADE# In the state of Florida , they have what they call a single subject rule . You could only deal with one thing at a time . And so when you look at the state of Florida and where a person can loose the right to vote for releasing human filled balloons in the air , disturbing turtle nesting aids ( ph ) , burning a tire in public or even driving on a suspended license , and once that person lose their rights , they have to wait five or seven years - - @!CARLSON# I get it . @!MEADE# -- if they have completed their sentence . But it 's more than that , Tucker , because after they wait their five and seven years , what we see here in Florida is that there is an additional 10-year waiting period -- @!CARLSON# OK . I know . I get it . @!MEADE# -- and so we 're talking about making an American @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . And a lot of those -- @!CARLSON# Trust me -- @!MEADE# -- are veterans who have put their lives on the line for this country . They 're fighting in Iraq and they come back -- @!CARLSON# I get it . I get it . We 're out of time . No @!MEADE# -- get in a bar fight , and you 're going to say I ca n't vote ? @!CARLSON# No , but I want to say this to be able to cops and soldiers and jury foreman also , and let 's just make it bigger than just voting . They should be able to go to the shooting range with you . We 're out of time . Gentlemen , thank you for joining us. @!MEADE# We thank you Tucker . @!VOLZ# We appreciate it . @!CARLSON# Thank you . Well President Obama got the Presidential Medal Of Freedom . He gave it to Joe Biden yesterday and he awarded it with distinction , something that 's only happened three times in the past 24 years . The other recipients you may remember were Colin @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . All of whom played integral roles in liberating whole nations from tyranny . Everyone likes Joe Biden , he 's pretty likable but what exactly did he do to deserve an accolade like this ? Let 's see , he represented America 's second smallest state in the Senate for 36 years and he was Obama 's running mate twice . Well that award comes a week after Ash Carter gave Obama the Department of Defense Medal for Distinguished Public Service , presumably for his great wartime heroics in defense of this nation . Obama likely added to his mighty chest of medals right next to his Nobel Peace Prize . We 'll keep you posted . Up ahead , king for a day . What would you do with absolute power for 24 hours ? We ask you the question and you responded as you always do . Up next , Ed Henry joins us in " The Friend Zone " . @!CARLSON# Time now for " The Friend Zone . " We invite one of our pals within the building here at Fox onto the show and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Ed Henry . ED HENRY , CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT , FOX NEWS : Great to see you . @!CARLSON# You know him from years of watching and you think that Ed Henry is a really good guy , really nice guy . I saw , Ed , the other day , Jim Acosts went after Trump and started barking at this press conference and I thought , where have I seen that before ? @(LAUGHTER) @!CARLSON# I saw it from Ed Henry . @!HENRY# Yes . I 've done some of that -- @!CARLSON# I remember that . @!HENRY# I was trying to go through my closet today because of the inaugural and I thought I 'd bring you some props . This is a little skully cap I got 44th president Obama from ' 09 Inaugural , OK. @!CARLSON# Nice . @!HENRY# And I got this t-shirt from when Saddam Hussein was captured , " Ace in the Hole . " Remember George W. Bush had all those cards -- @!CARLSON# Yes . @!HENRY# -- in the Oval Office . @!CARLSON# I remember that . @!HENRY# They got him @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was when I was pressing the Bush White House and you see it says " Zip it , Henry . " @!CARLSON# Yes I do . @!HENRY# There 's a story behind it that -- @!CARLSON# That 's Tony Snow . @!HENRY# Tony Snow . @!CARLSON# Of course , the former press secretary @!HENRY# Former Fox News and then he was the Bush press secretary . It 's a fun story and a sad story because what happened was , I was really battling with Tony Snow because what Jim Acosta is doing . Look , did he got a little far , sure . But you 've got to push power where there 's Democrat -- @!CARLSON# I agree completely . @!HENRY# -- and you do this in your show . And at one point Tony Snow got so exasperated with my questions he said , " Zip it , Henry . " And the whole room just stopped and the White House -- we 're going , what in the world ? @!CARLSON# Have you worked with him before he crossed ? @!HENRY# I was at CNN so @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a little undercurrent that he had been at Fox and I was at CNN . He really wanted to stick to me . So I get invited in the Palm here in Washington with some close friends . I know you love the Palm , and that 's why I wanted to tell you the story . So I 'm sitting there on a Friday with some friends and they surprised me this t-shirt and they say , not only do we get you this t-shirt , " Zip it , Henry " which sort of makes fun of you but showed you stood up to him , but we leaked it to the reliable source and you 're going to do a huge item on Monday about how your friends brought this t-shirt , " Zip it . Henry " because you 're battling the White House . I do n't know if I really wanted to pay for it but that 's funny . Literally during the lunch I get a phone call from one of my bosses at CNN saying can you talk ? Can you walk @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not going to believe this but Tony Snow just had a recurrence of cancer . CARLSON : Oh gosh . @!HENRY# I said what ? ! And so I had this mixed reaction of and I 'm getting emotional and I 'm thinking about it saying , first of all , I ca n't believe Tony is sick again and sadly , he died very shortly after that . And everyone at the White House Press Corp and you see him there , it was mourning ( ph ) it . But I was also thinking , I 've got to go back in this restaurant and tell my friends to call the " Washington Post " and not do an item about how I was celebrating on Friday at the Palm about my confrontation with Tony Snow . I do n't know -- I 'm telling you this story in part because , these things can get out of control sometimes . You 're battling and battling and after one of our other battles in the White House briefing room , a few hours later , we were out @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ House and Tony got in really close to me and we 're talking and his assistant , Ed Buckley , who is still in Washington , came up and he keep running up because he thought we were fighting . And he said I got to separate you two , you know , you 're even fighting out here . And Tony turned to him and said , Ed , do n't worry , you do n't understand . Ed 's got a job to do and I 've got a job to do as well . There is nothing personal here . And I always think back to Tony because he was somebody who got that even when he was at the podium being skewered by me or Jim Acosta or someone else , he got that when you 're in power , you 're going to have to face tough questions . And we got to remember that on our side where we got to ask tough questions , but there 's got to be class and grace and respect on both sides . @!CARLSON# It takes decent @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ had that . @!CARLSON# Yes , he certainly did . @!HENRY# Not me , but Tony Snow had that . That 's my point . @!CARLSON# By the way , I just checked the Amazon for Ed 's ranking , your book is killing it . I hope to come back when it 's out . @!HENRY# Every time you mention it , " 42 Faith " it jumps up . I appreciate it . April 4th. @!CARLSON# Are you kidding . Thank you Ed. @!HENRY# Thanks . @!CARLSON# Coming up , what would our loyal viewers do if they were given absolute corrupting power over America ? We 'll tell you in our " King for A Day " segment , which is up next . @!CARLSON# Time for my favorite segment , " King for A Day . " You told us what you would do if you had absolute control of this country for a single 24 hour period , and here 's what you wrote . America , @inclusiveUK tweeted , " I 'd make Chuck Schumer wear a Make America Great Again cap and sing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I 'd watch that . Barbara ( ph ) Wetzel said , " Legalizing drugs is the first step . Why do n't we talk about that ? Why is this always swept under the rug ? " Well many states just did . We 'll see if that makes things better . @JaneC tweeted , " Disable all social media , online chat , and online news outlets for 24 hours and ask people to talk to one another ! " Wow . @MacornWenden said , " Every congressman should live in the worst place in their state for 30 days and then report on how they 've improved the areas . " Boy , that 's brilliant . I love it . @FlyingEagle tweeted , " Heal the racial divide . We 're all Americans First . " Amen . @AlleyTaft said , " Let California secede . " And we 'll end on that " King for A Day . " We will see you Monday at 9:00 . Our friend Martha MacCallum is starting --

@@4172642 @!MIKE-EMANUEL , -FOX-CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT : Bret -- good evening . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on one team . And starting January 20th , Inauguration Day , they will have a new coach , and they intend to hit the ground running . @ ( BEGIN VIDEOTAPE ) @!MIKE-PENCE- ( R ) , VICE PRESIDENT -ELECT : The first order of business is to repeal and replace Obamacare. @!EMANUEL# Vice President-Elect Pence was back on Capitol Hill for the first full work day of the 115th Congress and tweeted a photo of his meeting with House Republicans . His goal was firing up the GOP about moving forward on a new agenda . @!PENCE# We are 16 days away from the end of business as usual in Washington , D.C. Today our message is very simple -- working with the leadership here in the House and in the Senate . We 're going to be in the promise-keeping business . @!EMANUEL# As Pence was heading to Capitol Hill , President-Elect Trump took to Twitter to warn " Republicans must be careful in that the Dems own the failed Obamacare disaster with its poor coverage and massive premium increases like the 116 percent hike in Arizona @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ useless . Do n't let the Schumer clowns out of this web . Massive increases of Obamacare will take place this year and Dems are to blame for the mess . It will fall of its own weight -- be careful . " Chuck Schumer , the Senate Democratic leader fired back . @!SEN-CHUCK-SCHUMER-(D) , MINORITY LEADER : Republicans will soon learn that you ca n't keep the good parts of the ACA and remove the rest of the law and still have it work . @!EMANUEL# Pence said he echoed Mr. Trump 's social media message behind closed doors . @!PENCE# I admonished members of the House Republican Congress today . It 's important that we remind the American people of what they already know about Obamacare . The promises that were made were all broken . @!EMANUEL# And Speaker Paul Ryan said while repeal of the President 's signature healthcare law would come swiftly , lawmakers will be careful to make sure consumers are n't hurt . @!REP-PAUL-RYAN- ( R-W# We want to make sure that as we give relief to people to Obamacare , we do it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ from anybody during that transition period . That 's the point that we are all trying to make . @!EMANUEL# As Republicans leaders call for an orderly transition , what comes next is unclear . Some GOP members are proposing a simultaneous repeal and replace . Others are suggesting a lengthy and deliberative process of two to four years to limit disruptions . After a lunch with GOP senators , Pence was asked what happens if replacing the law gets messy . @!PENCE# The simple fact is the American people know who owns Obamacare. @ ( END VIDEOTAPE ) @!EMANUEL# Lawmakers are hoping to have the Obamacare repeal on President Trump 's desk by the February 20th . Before that Pence said Mr. Trump will take a series of executive actions to start unraveling the law -- Bret. @!BAIER# Mike Emanuel , live on the Hill . Mike -- thank you . Despite the fact that Republicans will soon control both chambers of Congress and the White House , President Obama wants to make sure his party does not let his signature health care law go down without a serious @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ House on the President 's nonspecific but impassioned push to hold on to his legacy domestic policy achievement . @ ( BEGIN VIDEOTAPE ) @!KEVIN-CORKE , -FOX-NCORRESPONDENT : Less than three weeks before he begins a long and reflective walk into history , President Obama left a short message for the congressional Democrats he will leave behind . @!BARACK-OBAMA , -PRES# Look out for the American people . @!CORKE# Look out for the American people as in , continue to fight for his signature legislation , the Affordable Care Act , Obamacare . Mr. Obama 's comments following a rare trip to Capitol Hill for a closed-door meeting with House and Senate Democrats . @!SEN-CHUCK-SCHUMER-(D) , NEW YORK : The President articulated the importance of preserving the Affordable Care Act , Medicare , and Medicaid as only he can . And it was an inspiring meeting for all of us. @!REP-ELIJA-CUMMINGS# He basically said he envies us because he would like to be still in office to some degree , to fight with us. @!REP-NANCY-PELOSI- ( # The President 's message was one of confidence , confidence in the Affordable @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , confidence in its implementation . @!CORKE# From creating national monuments in Utah and Nevada to banning offshore oil drilling in the arctic , deleting the database of Muslim men at the Department of Homeland Security and expelling Russian operatives because of alleged hacking during the run-up to the election critics suggest the President 's trip to the Hill today to pitch the merits of Obamacare was little more than yet another push to preserve his legacy . And at least one Democrat , West Virginia Senator Joe Manchin , wanted no part of it . @!SEN-JOE-MANCHIN- ( D# I thought it would be counterproductive for me to go and sit there . And I thought why could n't we have come together ? Why could n't he have invited both sides and said whoever wants to come , come , we 'll give you our opinion ? @!REP-STEVE-SCALISE-# I hope he comes here to apologize for those broken promises . But I do n't think that 's what 's going to be the case . he is going to be here more concerned about preserving his legacy than about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Mr. Obama is concerned about the prospects of seeing much of his agenda undone in the coming years but they 're holding out hope that Democrats who will serve long after he 's gone will stand up to the GOP. @!JOSH-EARNEST , -WHIT# The people who are in by far the best position to prevent that from happening are congressional Democrats who are unified around the idea that those things are worth fighting for . @!CORKE# A clamorous political battle ahead at a time when most presidents quietly walk off the national stage . @ ( END VIDEOTAPE ) @!CORKE# Keyword there , most presidents are expected to sort of walk away quietly . Not this one , apparently . And Bret -- we can tell you that while the White House acknowledges the President will likely remain engaged behind the scenes in many of the policy and agenda items that basically shaped his presidency over the past eight years , we also learned tonight that Vice President Joe Biden will have posts at both that the University of Pennsylvania and the University of Delaware where he is expected to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ) . Back to you . @!BAIER# Kevin Corke , live on the north lawn . Kevin -- thank you . President Obama meantime will stay here in Washington , D.C. with his family . Now some perspective and a look back . The term " Obamacare " began as one of derision , but the man whose name it carries eventually came to embrace it with gusto . As our chief Washington correspondent James Rosen reports tonight from the White House , just about everything associated with the President 's signature domestic policy has been shrouded in controversy from the very beginning . @ ( BEGIN VIDEOTAPE ) @!JAMES-ROSEN , -FOX-NCHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT : It was the defining promise of Barack Obama 's presidency . @!OBAMA# If you like the plan you have , you can keep it . @!ROSEN# That promise repeated three dozen times made the patient protection Affordable Care Act , the law better known as Obamacare -- the President 's most contentious domestic initiative . At town halls , critics vented their anger , in part stirred by the Tea Party Movement -- @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE# Strike @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ arose to oppose what it called socialized medicine . Even a bipartisan brainstorming session at Blair House saw the President abrade ( ph ) his 2008 opponent . @!OBAMA# We are not campaigning . The election 's over . @!ROSEN# To cover the 44 million Americans who lack health insurance , the 900-page measure expanded Medicaid subsidies , offered online exchanges embraced by 39 states , fined noncompliant employers and penalized uninsured people . The measure also allowed children to remain on parents ' plans through age 26 and banned insurers from denying coverage on the basis of pre-existing conditions . When Republicans mustered 41 votes against Obamacare , the Democrats employed the parliamentary tactic of reconciliation , requiring only 51 votes for passage . @!BAIER# And we do n't know exactly what 's in the fixed bill . Do you -- @!OBAMA# No , we will -- by the time the vote has taken place , not only I will know what 's in it , you will know what 's in it . @!ROSEN# The House Speaker memorably reversed that . @!PELOSI# We need to pass the bill @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!ROSEN# Ultimately Obamacare passed with no Republican support and was signed into law in March 2010 . As its provisions took effect , the online exchanges suffered pervasive glitches and an estimated four million people lost their plans , if violations of the President 's promise for which he begrudgingly apologized. @!OBAMA# And , you know , that 's on me. @!ROSEN# More than 20 million Americans have received coverage under the law . @!OBAMA# For the first time in our history , more than 90 percent of Americans are insured . @!ROSEN# But it has been dogged by problems . @!BILL-CLINTON-(D) , -# and then the people are out busting it sometimes 60 hours a week , wind up with their premiums doubled and their coverage cut in half . It 's the craziest thing in the world . @ ( END VIDEOTAPE ) @!ROSEN# Regardless of how the effort to repeal and replace Obamacare goes , it will go down in history as one of the most ambitious White House projects of the post-war era . And if it is discarded by the Trump administration , it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ -- Bret. @!BAIER# James Rosen in the White House briefing room . James -- thank you . The President-Elect says he is suspending judgment until Friday over whether Russia really was behind the hacks of the Democratic Party and the Clinton officials leading up the U.S. election . Friday is when President- Elect Trump is expected to receive a briefing by leaders of the intelligence committee about what they know . But the CIA director is not waiting until then to say he has proof Russia is to blame . Chief intelligence correspondent Catherine Herridge has our report tonight . @ ( BEGIN VIDEOTAPE ) @!JOHN-BRENNAN , -CIA-# He 's not exactly a bastion of truth and integrity . @!CATHERINE-HERRIDGECHIEF INTELLIGENCE CORRESPONDENT : In the PBS interview , CIA director John Brennan cast doubt on the credibility of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange , who told Fox News the Russian government was not his source for the DNC and Clinton campaign emails. @!BRENNAN# I would n't , you know , ascribe to any of these individuals for making comments that it is providing the whole , unvarnished truth . Again , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we know about what happened , what was collected , what disclosed . @!HERRIDGE# Pressed on the hacker 's intent , which usually requires intelligence from human spying or an intercepted phone call , Brennan promised specifics . @!JUDY-WOODRUFF , -PBS# Do you think the motive of the Russians was to help Donald Trump ? @!BRENNAN# That 's one of the things that will be addressed inside their report . I 'm not going to address that in advance of its release . @!HERRIDGE# In 2010 , Assange 's WikiLeaks worked with then Army Private Bradley Manning to release several hundred thousand classified Defense Department documents , endangering sources and methods , according to a former FBI operative . @!TIMOTHY-GILL , -FORM# Sensitive intelligence is just not words on paper but it 's lives in danger . @!HERRIDGE# At the time , Donald Trump told Fox 's Brian Kilmeade the leaks were un-American. @!DONALD-TRUMP- ( R ) , PRESIDENT-ELECT : it 's a disgrace . @!BRIAN-KILMEADE , -FOHOST : You do n't think it 's a disgrace -- @(inaudible) @!HERRIDGE# In the new Fox interview broadcast Tuesday , Assange also @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ emails was child 's play . @!JULIAN-ASSANGE , -WI# Podesta gave out that his password was the word " password " . His own staff said this e-mail that you 've received , this is totally legitimate . So this is something a 14-year-old kid -- a 14-year- old kid could have hacked . @!HERRIDGE# In a tweet Mr. Trump picked up Assange 's charge saying the Democrats were careless and to blame . On Capitol Hill , the Vice President - Elect defended his boss . @!PENCE# Given some of the intelligence failures of recent years , the President-Elect has made it clear to the American people that he 's skeptical about conclusions from bureaucracy and the American people hear him loud and clear . @!HERRIDGE# Although the Republican House Speaker told a conservative radio show he has no opinion of Assange. @!RYAN# Other than the guy is a sycophant for Russia -- he leaks , he steals data and compromises national security . @ ( END VIDEOTAPE ) @!HERRIDGE# Tonight Fox News is told the classified report is virtually complete and President Obama could be briefed as early @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Intelligence James Clapper and the NSA director Mike Rogers will testify to the Senate about foreign cyber threats to the U.S. -- Bret @!BAIER# We 'll follow it . Catherine -- thank you . @!HERRIDGE# You 're welcome . @!BAIER# So what do you think ? Do you think President-Elect Trump is right to seemingly side with Julian Assange over the intelligence community about Russia and the hacks ? Or at least express that skepticism on Twitter ? Let me know on Twitter @BretBaier , you can use the #SpecialReport or on Facebook at facebook.com/BretBaierSR . We may use your comments later in the panel . President Obama asked for a seamless transition to the next president at his last meeting with his top military leaders today . The commander-in- chief said he 's doing everything possible to ensure that Donald Trump benefits from the advice of his current military brass . He cited the ongoing fight against ISIS in Iraq and Syria as conflicts the next president will inherit . President Obama was then honored for his service at a ceremony at Joint Base Myer in Virginia where he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!OBAMA# We live free under the red , white , and blue because of patriots like you . It has been a privilege of a lifetime to serve with you . @ ( END VIDEO CLIP ) @!BAIER# The U.S. and its allies are doubling the number military advisors helping Iraqi forces battle ISIS in Mosul . For the first time , the Pentagon admitted U.S. forces are operating inside Mosul saying the forces are moving in and out of that city . But a U.S. military spokesman said the advisors are not operating on the front lines there . Four Gitmo detainees are slated to be transferred to Saudi Arabia in the next 24 hours -- the first of the final wave of up to 20 transfers expected before inauguration day . U.S. officials are telling Fox News , they say that President-Elect Trump strongly opposes any more transfers off the base . But senior Pentagon officials saying until Trump is president the transfers will go on as scheduled . Well , candidate Donald Trump held his last formal press conference 161 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ has sent nearly 1,300 tweets weighing in on everything from nuclear arms to who may be performing at his inauguration . Correspondent Peter Doocy reports from New York tonight on the latest news coming out of Trump Tower . @ ( BEGIN VIDEOTAPE ) @!PETER-DOOCY , -FOX-NCORRESPONDENT : The inauguration is inching closer and closer but the President-Elect still does n't think people get him . He tweeted today about a 16-year-old singer set to start his ceremony with the National Anthem by saying this . Quote , " Jackie Evancho 's album sales have skyrocketed after announcing her inauguration performance . Some people just do n't understand the movement . " Mr. Trump is also using Twitter to forecast that we will see headlines about additional American companies doing what Ford just did , investing in the States to avoid hefty import taxes . Writing quote , " Thank you to Ford for scrapping a new plant in Mexico and creating 700 new jobs in the U.S. This is just the beginning , much more to follow . " A big part of the Trump economic plan is cutting @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to make sure companies are still following the new rules . So he picked regulatory lawyer , Jay Clayton to run the Securities and Exchange Commission . That selection comes as Mr. Trump 's pick to be the next secretary of State is working ahead of next week 's confirmation hearings to eliminate any concerns about a conflict of interest with ExxonMobil where he was on the payroll until New Year 's Day . Rex Tillerson is in line to get $180 million from the oil giant as a retirement package , money that would go into a trust that would not be allowed to invest back in Exxon stock . Two other picks for top Trump administration jobs are having bumpier beginnings to ' 17 . Liberal groups are up with ads accusing Trump Treasury secretary pick Steven Mnuchin of profiting off the foreclosure crisis . @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE# Tell Senator Heller to vote no on Mnuchin. @!DOOCY# And in Mobile , Alabama , an NAACP protest about decades-old comments made by Senator Jeff Sessions , Trump 's pick for Attorney General got half a dozen people arrested , including that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is now outlining his plan of attack against Senator Sessions , one of the eight nominees he wants to slow down on their way to the cabinet room . @!SCHUMER# It 's hard for me to countenance an attorney general who is so anti-immigration. @ ( END VIDEOTAPE ) @!DOOCY# The President-Elect has expressed very little faith in the intelligence community . But just a few minutes ago , a senior transition source texted to confirm that a leading contender to come in and clean things up as the next director of National Intelligence is former Indiana Senator Dan Coats . Sources tell our colleague Mike Emanuel that the Vice President -Elect , Indiana governor Mike Pence is really pushing the Indiana connection with that one -- Bret. @!BAIER# Peter Doocy outside Trump Tower . Peter -- thank you . Turkey 's foreign minister says they know the suspect behind the New Year 's Eve nightclub attack that killed 39 people in Istanbul but they still have not named him publicly . The state-run news agency reports police have detained 20 suspects , including 11 women who are believed to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that attack but tonight suspect who carried it out is still on the loose . Police in Istanbul have set up checkpoints and are checking vehicles across that city . Israel 's prime minister is calling for the pardon of an Israeli soldier convicted today of manslaughter in the death of a wounded Palestinian attacker . Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu 's request for a pardon plunges him into a political debate that has divided the country over this case and puts him at odds with the Israeli military . Israel 's president has the authority to issue a pardon but said he will wait for the legal process to run its course before making a decision . Up next , a closer look at some of the conservative credentials of President-Elect Trump 's picks to fill the vacant seat on the U.S. Supreme Court . First , here is some of what our Fox affiliates around the country are covering tonight . Fox 13 in Seattle where health officials have confirmed nine flu-related deaths in Washington just three weeks into the flu season . The state 's Health Department says @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ state . Doctors seeing the spike in flu cases are urging everyone to get a flu shot . Fox 35 in Orlando where Republican Governor Rick Scott wants nearly $6 million to hire more state agents dedicated to counterterrorism efforts . The governor 's request follows last year 's terror attack on the Pulse Nightclub that left 49 people dead . And this is a live look at New York from our affiliate Fox 5 . The big story there tonight a train derailment during this morning 's rush hour that injured more than 100 people . Investigators say a Long Island railroad train hit the bumping block as it came into the Brooklyn station a little after 8:00 this morning . New York 's governor said the most significant known injury was a possible broken leg . The cause of the crash is still under investigation -- one of several in that region in recent months . That is tonight 's live look outside the Beltway from SPECIAL REPORT . We 'll be right back . @!BAIER# Democrat Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer promises a fight over President-Elect Donald @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ But even before he has a chance to try to block any potential nominee , some pro-life leaders are raising their own concerns over some of the conservative credentials on the President-Elect 's list so far . Chief legal correspondent , Shannon Bream joins us now live with a look some of their records . Good evening -- Shannon . @!SHANNON-BREAM , -FOXCHIEF LEGAL CORRESPONDENT : Hi -- Bret . Well yes , the new senate minority leader is not going to take it easy on the President-Elect 's Supreme Court nominee once we find out who that will be . Schumer says the GOP basically stole the Supreme Court seat left vacant by the death of Justice Scalia by refusing to move on the President 's nominee , Judge Merrick Garland . And it sounds like things could get complicated on Capitol Hill . @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!SCHUMER# It 's hard for me to imagine a nominee that Donald Trump would choose that would get Republican support that we could support . So , you are right . @!RACHEL-MADDOW , -MSN# And so you would do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!SEN-MITCH-MCCONNEL# that is something the American people simply will not tolerate . And we 'll be looking forward to receiving a Supreme Court nomination and moving forward on it . @ ( END VIDEO CLIP ) @!BREAM# It is not surprising the left would question Mr. Trump 's eventual nominee but there are growing concerns from some on the right as well . A coalition of pro-life groups and leaders just sent a letter saying they are worried about some of the candidates on the list of 21 potential picks Mr. Trump has released . Quote , " We urge you to consider , not consider candidates lacking a pro-life record . Several of these judges on the list have even written or spoken in ways that are at odds with the pro-life position . " The Trump transition team says not to worry . All are being thoroughly vetted. @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!LEONARD-LEO , -TRUMP# The President is working very hard to get this right and these are people who have very deep records that have to be analyzed very carefully and lots of cases @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ particular statement or comment by any of these prospective nominees that can be viewed in isolation . @ ( END VIDEO CLIP ) @!BREAM# First Liberty Institute , a group that takes on religious freedom legal fights has been pouring through all of the opinions of the judges on Mr. Trump 's list and says there 's a way to calm conservative fears . @!KELLY-SHACKELFORD , # There are many other excellent judges on the list that have no red flags ; and in fact , a very solid judicial background that would make excellent choices at the U.S. Supreme Court . @ ( END VIDEO CLIP ) @!BREAM# It will take 60 votes in the Senate to get any Supreme Court nominee passed , the first procedural hurdle . So unless something changes , Republicans will need some help from across the aisle -- Bret. @!BAIER# Shannon -- thank you . The sentencing phase began today for the man convicted of killing nine black church members in South Carolina . And speaking before the court , the convicted killer did not ask jurors to spare his life from the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on day one in court . @ ( BEGIN VIDEOTAPE ) @!JONATHAN-SERRIE , -FCORRESPONDENT : In his opening statement , Dylann Roof made no mention of his crime or his motives . Instead , the defendant calmly and quietly told jurors he chose to act as his own attorney to prevent his defense team from entering evidence about his mental health . Roof insisted quote , " There is nothing wrong with me psychologically . " The same jurors who last month convicted Roof in the 2015 massacre at Charleston 's historically black Emanuel AME Church must now decide whether he should spend the rest of his life in prison or face execution . Prosecutor Nathan Williams argued for the latter , citing Roof 's racist motives and lack of remorse for the crime . Williams read from a hand- written statement found in Roof 's cell a month after the crimes in which he states " I do not regret what I did . I 'm not sorry . I have not shed a tear for the innocent people I killed . I do feel sorry for the innocent @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " Prosecutors have begun calling on relatives of the nine deceased shooting victims to describe the emotional pain that Dylann Roof inflicted on their families and their community . @!MALCOLM-GRAHAM , -BR# There is no room for him in a civilized society . I believe there 's no room for him in America 's smallest jail . @!SERRIE# Malcolm Graham plans to testify about his sister , Cynthia Heard ( ph ) a dedicated librarian and active church member who perished in the shootings . He tells Fox News some crimes are so heinous the only logical penalty is death . @!GRAHAM# My sister and eight others died simply because they were there that and they were black . And that can not stand in a civilized society . And that has to be punished . @ ( END VIDEOTAPE ) @!SERRIE# The hearing is expected to go into next week with prosecutors calling on as many as 38 witnesses . Dylann Roof on the other hand says he intends to call no witnesses and present no evidence . However , he does plan on making a closing argument -- @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you . Crime in New York City is down according to data released today . The Big Apple had its fewest number of shootings last year and narrowly missed setting a record low for homicides . And overall crime was at its lowest in New York City . The city 's police commissioner says the numbers are the result of careful police strategies and increased work with communities . Democrats in California say they will challenge the incoming Trump administration on everything from immigration to the environment . And now state legislators have hired a former attorney general to help them do just that . National correspondent , William La Jeunesse from Los Angeles tonight on the man they have picked to lead their fight . @ ( BEGIN VIDEOTAPE ) @!GOV-JERRY-BROWN- ( D# If Trump turns off the satellites , California will launch its own damn satellites . @!**26;708;TOOLONG CORRESPONDENT : Two weeks before Donald Trump even takes office , California is preparing for battle , hiring former Attorney General Eric Holder to challenge the new administration . @!ANTHONY-RENDON-(D)# It 's up to us in this body to pass @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the cynical , shortsighted and reactionary agenda that is rising in the wake of this election . LA JEUNESSE : From education to climate change , the state hopes to stop or stall Trump 's policy reforms . @!BROWN# We have the laws , we have the tools of enforcement , and we have the political will . And we will set the stage , set the example that whatever Washington thinks they are doing , California is the future . @!HANS-VON-SPAKOVSKY# By hiring Holder , it is like they are firing a shot across the bow of the Trump administration 's new liner . LA JEUNESSE : Former Justice Department lawyer Hans von Spakovsky wrote a book about Holder , the only cabinet member ever to be held in contempt of congress . @!SPAKOVSKY# It 's going to cost them a lot of money to try to fight the federal government , for example , on immigration enforcement in sanctuary cities . And in the end , they are going to lose . LA JEUNESSE : But with 38 percent of federal judgeships filled by Obama appointees , California @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a platform to sue . @!RENDON# We need to fight to protect our people and their rights . LA JEUNESSE : State lawmakers say they will pay Holder $25,000 a month to be a thorn in Trump 's side not unlike the hold Texas played against President Obama , filing 46 lawsuits , winning seven , losing or withdrawing 21 , 18 are still pending . The first battleground , likely immigration as defiant state Democrats offer $80 million taxpayer to protect 2.3 million illegal immigrants from deportation , an approach endorsed by the L.A. mayor Eric Garcetti. @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE# When people work under the table , when they 're pushed to the shadows , that depresses wages for native born folks . That means fewer business starts . @ ( END VIDEOTAPE ) LA JEUNESSE : Holder said in a statement that he is , quote , " honored to serve as the state 's legal advisor as it considers how to respond to potential changes in federal law . " Bret ? @!BAIER# William , thank you . The Dow gained 60 today , putting it fewer than 60 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ up 13 . The NASDAQ finished ahead 48 . Whether the outgoing president has a fighting chance to try to save Obamacare , his legacy , domestic policy issue . The all-star panel weighs in on that next . @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!GOV-MIKE-PENCE , - ( R ) VICE PRESIDENT ELECT : The first order of business is to repeal and replace Obamacare . Our president-elect took his case to the American people to repeal and replace Obamacare , and the American people voted decisively for a better future for health care in this country . @!CHARLES-SCHUMER , - ( # Once they come up with a full replace plan , we will look at it , may be propose a change or two . But we 're not going to the minute after they repeal sit down with them and say let 's see what we can do now . @!NANCY-PELOSI , - ( D-C# The president 's message was one of confidence , confidence in the Affordable Care Act , confidence in the humility that we have to listen to other ideas they have in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . And we should n't be opposed to that . @ ( END VIDEO CLIP ) @!BAIER# President Obama meeting with Democrats . Vice president elect Pence meeting with Republicans up on Capitol Hill . The topic , Obamacare . If you look at this map from " USA Today , " it shows the premium rate increases around the country , and you can see there are some above 50 percent states in there , but a lot of them in the 30 to 50 percent shading on this . That does n't even include the deductibles that people are dealing with in their health care situation . This comes as the president-elect made clear his feelings on this battle . " Republicans must be careful . The Dems owned the failed Obamacare disaster with its poor coverage and massive premium increases , like the 116 percent hike in Arizona . Also deductibles are so high that it 's practically useless . Do n't let the Schumer clowns out of this web . Massive increases in Obamacare will take place this year and Dems are to blame . It @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is the warning on Twitter . A lot of people ask why do you read those tweets ? That 's the way he 's communicating . So we 're reading them , what 's going on today . Let 's bring in our panel , Charles Hurt , political columnist for " The Washington Times , " Mercedes Schlapp , columnist for the " Washington Times , " David Catanese , senior politics writer for " U.S. News and World Report , " and Jonah Goldberg , senior editor of " National Review . " OK , Jonah , it seemed like the president went up there and said , hey , you guys need to stop this . When it came to how , what are they going to do , there was not a lot there there . @!JONAH-GOLDBERG , -SE# You can mark it as a 2017 miracle . I agree entirely with something Donald Trump tweeted. he 's absolutely right . This is a difficult position that the Republicans are in in part because a lot of Obamacare passed with 60 votes . You ca n't @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ about how this is going to be -- the press is irresponsible in a lot of its talk about repeal . You ca n't keep all of the popular parts of Obamacare which Donald Trump promises to do and still call it repeal . It is something else . And lastly , because of Obamacare 's own internal flaws , it 's sort of like a suicidal dying patient . And the Republicans are leaping into be the doctor of record for the patient , and that 's a real political problem for them . They can make it die faster but they ca n't save it and they ca n't get a replacement for it very soon either . @!BAIER# So , Dave , are the Democrats saying you guys hold the old maid card now ? @!DAVID-CATANESE , - " U# It 's incredible . You saw an entirely new frame of Obamacare presented today . The Democrats are now saying , they are labeling it Trumpcare as a potential replacement . They are saying Trumpcare will make you sick . And now the Republicans are sending out @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Think about how that has flipped . the bottom line is that leadership is going to have to come more than by tweets from the president-elect . Remember how President Obama got through the original health care reform . He drove the principles . They argued over the public option , whether there should be an individual mandate . We do n't know what president-elect Trump wants in that and he 's the only person that can unify the Republican Party . Otherwise you 're going to have legislators every day saying this is what I wanted , this is what I wanted , 100 ideas that 's not comprehensive . It has to come from Trump , has to come from the White House . @!BAIER# We should take a moment , Mercedes . It is the Republican 's ball now . The onus is on them . They have both chambers of Congress and the White House . But the president , you remember , said , he started his time in office saying 36 times if you like the plan you have , you can keep it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the plan that is falling apart . @!MERCEDES-SCHLAPP , -# President Obama is trying to save his legacy on Obamacare . He is telling the Democrats stand your ground . And he 's also saying he 's taking responsibility for the fact that they did n't communicate . They did n't message it correctly . This is not a messaging problem . This is a failed policy problem . This is the fact that you have Obamacare where you 've had tax increases , premium hikes . You 've had one in five consumers who now only have access to a single insurer . The majority of Americans are not happy . They disapprove of Obamacare . This is the opportunity for Republicans to take hold of this process . The problem is that if there 's one lesson the Republicans should learn it 's the fact that Obama pushed Obamacare and Congress pushed Obamacare only with Democrats . It was not a bipartisan effort . It would be wise for the Republicans to bring the Democrats along , create a bipartisan effort so both parties have responsibility . @!CHARLES-HURT @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this is when people say that Obamacare -- Democrats admit that Obamacare is not working . Of course it 's working exactly as they intended . What it means is a lot of people who work are going to face huge premium increases to pay for people who previously did n't have health care . So it is actually working the way it was designed to work . @!BAIER# The problem was they were supposed to win the White House and change it into a bigger system . @!HURT# Right . As Mercedes says , this is the problem . The James Rosen package I thought had the most important quote of the entire effort where President Obama is sitting there meeting outside the White House with Republicans . He said we are not campaigning anymore and the election is over , as if , you know , campaigns are just politics where we say stuff that does n't mean anything . This is a knife fight now and we are pushing our agenda . And whether you call it health care reform or whatever , getting buy-in from Democrats @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , it 's probably not a bad thing . And Trump is probably uniquely qualified to try to do that . @!BAIER# Here is Speaker Paul Ryan on people potentially losing insurance in this whole change . @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!REP-PAUL-RYAN , -(R)# We have been saying all along we do n't want to pull the rug out from people while we are replacing the law . The point is in 2017 we do n't want people to be caught with nothing . We want to make sure that there 's an orderly transition so that the rug is not pulled out from under the families who are currently struggling under Obamacare while we bring relief . @ ( END VIDEO CLIP ) @!BAIER# Jonah , according to HHS , they 've had 20 million people gaining health insurance since the law passed in 2010 to early 2016 . But 4.7 million had individual policies canceled in 2013 because they did n't measure up . One in five consumers only has one insurer . You go through this list , and it 's pretty horrific . It @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ from point A to point B. @!GOLDBERG# Right , the easiest part of the task in terms of messaging is that most of the people are signups on Obamacare are Medicare , and they are going to stay on that . You might have to tell them that may not be true couple years for now , but that 's fairly safe . The question is what you tell the people who have been jerked around by those clowns in Washington for six years in terms of their private , you know , market plans , all these other things , employer plans , been kicked off this , kicked off that , premiums going up , that the Republicans got in and they were supposed to have a solution and instead that process just accelerates for a while longer . sometimes firemen show up on the scene and they just let the building burned to the ground and then you build new . I do n't know that they have to do repeal on day one . Mercedes is right , there is room for Trump to come up @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , if that 's the risk , it 's tough . @!BAIER# And they have a lot of things out there . They have crossing state lines . They have opening up the markets , health savings accounts , they have a lot of things but they do n't have one thing . @!CATANESE# And there is already disagreement about whether to even keep the taxes and place among Republicans . You guys are focused on the Democrats . The Republicans are n't unified on how to approach this . And I talked to a Senate leadership aide today who said Mike Pence told us he wants legislation by February 20th . That 's a month . Now , given everything else that 's going to suck up this news cycle , confirmation hearings , a Supreme Court pick , are Republicans going to be able to do this with repeal and a replacement within a month ? that is a daunting task . This could consumed the entire first 100 days if not beyond Trump 's presidency . And they you 've got to ask the question , does @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ March , April , if it takes that long to do this ? this is going to be a Herculean task to get through it . @!SCHLAPP# it 's a massive project , but at the same time guess who has a plan . It 's actually HHS cabinet nominee former Congressman Tom Price . He is the one that pushed forward this idea of the fixed tax credits , of expanding the health savings account ensuring that you can have a competition across state lines . There is a platform there , there 's a framework there for the Republicans to start . However , there is that sense of disagreement , and Republican leadership will be key in working with Trump to push forward something that would be acceptable to not only the moderate Republicans but the conservative Republicans who want to phase-in -- phase out quickly , in two years , as opposed to three to four years that the other Republicans want . @!BAIER# It will be a big battle , no doubt . You mentioned the Supreme Court . One of the biggest things about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ open vacancy and you have the Senate minority leader saying they are going to fight tooth and nail if the person that the president-elect and environment president puts forward is not right . Take a listen to Chuck Schumer on this . @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!SCHUMER# It is hard for me to imagine a nominee that Donald Trump would choose that would get Republican support that we could support . So you 're right . @!UNIDENTIFIED-FEMAL# And so you would do your best to hold the seat open ? @!SCHUMER# Absolutely . We are initiating a letter , hopefully signed by Democrats and Republicans . This letter simply says to Mitch McConnell and Chuck Grassley , do your job , hold the hearing . @ ( END VIDEO CLIP ) @!BAIER# They said multiple times , Chuck , obviously fill the seat , get Merrick Garland in . Hold a hearing . Now he is saying we may try to hold it open . @!HURT# Turnabout is fair play in politics But Donald Trump has taught Republicans one thing that is very good , and that is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Court is a perfect example where Republicans have very much adopted the Democratic notion that it 's OK to twist the constitution anywhere you want to without constitutional amendments . And to go back to that original fight and have that fight in public , Republicans can win it , and Donald Trump will be a very good spokesman for that fight . @!BAIER# But quickly , Dave , can Democrats continue to fight on every issue , on every nominee , on everything ? @!CATANESE# No . Look , Chuck Schumer did a big media tour yesterday and a lot of it was for the base to get them fired up , that I 'm your new leader and I 'm going to fight . He ca n't keep all these promises . They are in the minority . They are in an even bigger hole in the House . And they do n't have the presidency . @!GOLDBERG# They have the nuclear option . @!CATANESE# Right . And Schumer helped kill the nuclear option . He 's not taking credit for that now , but he 's saying @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this was the Democratic base , the donors out there who are still upset about this election , saying we are going to fight . We 're going to fight on all these things . We can do the fact-check in three months and see how much he lives up to his word . @!BAIER# We invited the Senate minority leader here on SPECIAL REPORT . Next up , a fact-check on WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange and the back and forth over this intel . @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!UNIDENTIFIED-MALE# He 's not exactly a bastion of truth and integrity . And so therefore I would n't , you know , ascribed to any of these individuals for making comments that it is providing the whole , unvarnished truth . @!SEAN-HANNITY , -FOX-HOST : Can you tell the American people 1,000 present you did not get it from Russia or anybody associated with Russia ? @!JULIAN-ASSANGE , -FO# We can say , and we have said repeatedly over the last two months that our source is not the Russian government and it is not a state party . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ trust the American patriots who work in the intelligence community who swear an oath and allegiance to the constitution and not some guy hiding from the law was a record of undercutting and undermining American democracy . @ ( END VIDEO CLIP ) @!BAIER# Well , the fight over intelligence as the president-elect gets ready to get an intelligence briefing on Friday , and the leaders of the intelligence community pushing back against some of his tweets . Donald Trump tweeting , " Julian Assange said a 14-year-old could have hacked Podesta . Why was DNC so careless ? " Also said Russians did not give him the info . Then re-tweets , " FOX News , Julian Assange on U.S. media coverage . It 's very dishonest , more dishonest than anyone knows . " We are back to the panel . It seems clear , Mercedes , that the intelligence community is saying , listen , wait until you hear before you go after us . What about this public back-and-forth ? @!SCHLAPP# I do n't like it . that one of the problems with the intelligence community @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ especially around this election time , post-election in pushing forward the theory that the Russians have hacked and have basically said that Trump has been -- that the Russians went in favor of Trump . I spoke to a former national security advisor , part of the team that basically said that this is not normal . This is not what the intelligence community should be doing . They should not be going public with this information . what you 're going to find is that there is a chance Trump will hear the word circumstantial evidence , the likelihood , the possibility that this happened , and he 's going to need to make his own judgment from there . But Trump going public with this as well , I do n't think it 's favorable. @!BAIER# It is important to point out the history of Julian Assange . This is a " Times London " report on the WikiLeaks dangers back in 2010 . " Hundreds of Afghan lives been put at risk by leaking 90,000 intelligence documents because the files identify informants working with NATO forces . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Times " found the names of dozens of dozens of Afghans credited with providing detailed intelligence to U.S. forces . They 're villages are given for identification and also in many cases their father 's names . " Back in 2010 , Donald Trump called that very problematic . Other people went further and said that he should be taken up on charges . @!GOLDBERG# I agree with 2010 Donald Trump . that a lot of things can be true . The WikiLeaks documents can be truthful . we know that they are true . Why ruin such a great platform by discrediting it with false information ? It can also be true that propaganda is true . There 's nothing in the definition of propaganda that says it 's untrue . Julian Assange is an anti- American radical who detests this country , has said so explicitly and implicitly for years , does n't mind that he 's responsible for the deaths of western allies , who is a " Russia Today " host , and the rush by conservatives who moments ago were talking about what a terrible @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ narrative for the Trump administration , is outrageous . It is not true , by the way -- it 's technically possible a 14-year-old could have hacked this , but it 's also absolutely true that a 14-year-old did not hack this , because the phishing app they used to get John Podesta was a classic piece of major intelligence gathering statecraft that is mostly used by foreign governments . And it 's not used by 14-year-olds or fat guys on their bed . @(LAUGHTER) @!BAIER# Charlie , it 's getting a lot of pushback inside the intelligence community . There are a lot of people out in America who say the intelligence community has been wrong before . Donald Trump is right to be skeptical and he should push and wait until he gets all the details . it just feels like , for some of these nonpartisan intel folks , that they are caught in the middle . @!HURT# Sure , they are . But it kind of reminds me a little bit of the people who are upset about the FBI , Comey being involved in the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you do n't want the FBI inserting itself into the election , do n't nominate somebody who is being investigated by the FBI . Donald Trump , I ca n't disagree with what you all are saying about Julian Assange except that if he were a reporter and did n't hate the country , he were just be a reporter , he would be held up as the next Woodward and Bernstein for getting all of these files . He would be celebrated . But it 's a good thing for the president-elect to have this healthy skepticism about the intel . They have gotten things wrong . The weapons of mass destruction was not a slam dunk in Iraq . ISIS was not a jayvee team . All of that came from intelligence sources . So I just think everybody should sort of calm down a little bit right now and wait and see what happens . Let him get these briefings . @!BAIER# Dave , we just heard officially that the report is done . The president will be briefed about it tomorrow . Catherine reported some of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ president-elect on Friday . @!CATANESE# This is going to be the fault line where Trump could get into some real trouble with his own party . John McCain is holding a hearing tomorrow morning about this topic . He 's going to have James Clapper , the director of national intelligence , in front of him . I 'm sure Donald Trump is going to see it , be watching it , not like it . Maybe tweet about it . And then you 've got him going into this private briefing on Friday . And Trump has to be really careful . These are Republican hawks that are going to be against him that he needs for his confirmation . McCain already signaled today probably not going to be voting for Tillerson . If he Trump loses two more hawks , maybe Lindsey Graham and Marco Rubio , Tillerson goes down . @!BAIER# The House speaker saying " Assange is a sycophant for Russia . He leaks , he steals data , and compromises national security . " So this is not over as far as the story goes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , more highlights from yesterday 's swearing-ins. @ ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) @!BAIER# Finally tonight , the classic moments from the ceremonial Congressional swearing in family photos with vice president Biden and Speaker Ryan just keep on giving . Take a look . Vice President Biden going in for the kiss . Oh , no , rejected . Rejected by the baby . And then the dab photo form this . Speaker Ryan said , " do you want to blow your nose ? " That 's what Speaker Ryan said . He said " What is your problem ? " And he finally got it right . That 's it for this SPECIAL REPORT , fair balanced , and unafraid . Here comes Tucker .

@@4172841 @!ANTHONY-MASON# Four point two . @!GAYLE-KING# Two . @!ANTHONY-MASON# Wow . @!GAYLE-KING# Yep . @!ANTHONY-MASON# All right . Welcome back to CBS THIS MORNING . We got Judd Apatow in the greenroom here this morning . He 'll be joining us shortly . But right now , it 's time to -- there he is , checking up on the news . Somebody still reads the newspaper . @!GAYLE-KING# What 's you 're reading , Judd ? Yes . @!ANTHONY-MASON# Right now it 's time to show you some of this morning 's headlines . The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette remembers pioneering transplant surgeon Thomas Starzl . He died in his sleep Saturday at his home in Pittsburgh . Strazl performed the first successful liver transplant on a human patient in 1967 . He transformed the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center into the busiest transplant center in the world . He was also a leading researcher into anti- rejection drugs that saved the lives of thousands . Thomas Starzl , after an incredible life , died at ninety years old . @!GAYLE-KING# Wow . The Wall Street Journal says more charity officials are receiving million-dollar paydays . About twenty-seven hundred employees @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ or more back in 2014 and that 's up a third from 2011 . High pay at charities has drawn scrutiny some -- from some lawmakers because the groups received significant tax breaks . @!NORAH-O'DONNELL# USA Today is tracking the effects of an unseasonably warm February . Spring-like conditions arrived twenty-two days early in Washington , DC . The famed cherry trees might blossom earlier than ever . Pollen will bother allergy sufferers ten to twenty days sooner in some areas . It was the warmest February ever in more than two hundred and seventy cities . @!ANTHONY-MASON# Wow . The New York Times says the U.S. Soccer Federation is ordering players to stand during national anthems . American midfiller -- midfielder Megan Rapinoe knelt during the U.S. anthem before two games last year . The penalty for breaking the rule is unclear . @!NORAH-O'DONNELL# Helicopter pilot Major Mary Jennings Hegar and her crew were shot down by the Taliban in 2009 during a rescue mission outside Kandahar , Afghanistan . Despite her wounds she fought back and saved the lives of her crew and patients . Major Hegar earned @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to receive Disting -- Distinguished Flying Cross with valor for her heroism . @!GAYLE-KING# Major Hegar continued fighting after she returned home and she joined a lawsuit against the longstanding rule that barred women from ground combat positions . @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# My gender has never been a factor in accomplishing my unit 's mission , and it should not be a factor when selecting personnel to serve in combat roles . @!GAYLE-KING# And that rule has since been reversed . Major Hegar discussed her battles in and out of the military in a new book . It 's called Shoot Like a Girl : One Woman 's Dramatic Fight in Afghanistan and on the Home Front . She joins us at the table . I do n't if we should call you miss badass or M.J. @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# M.J. will work . @!GAYLE-KING# Which would you prefer , M.J. Hegar ? We 're so delighted to have your book , I have to say is riveting . @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# Thank you . @!GAYLE-KING# Because I look at girls like you -- women like you and think I could never do that . But @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ watching Perfect Storm , you see this crash , you go , I want to do that . @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# I did . Yes . I did want to crash into the ocean -- @!GAYLE-KING# Tell us what is -- @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# -- but I did . You know , from watching Han Solo navigate an asteroid field to watching movies like The Perfect Storm , I just -- it would always kind of get my adrenaline up , and I just knew that it was something I wanted to do . @!GAYLE-KING# But you got resistance along the way , starting with very early you get a recommendation from a teacher you think likes you only to find out he 's saying that 's not for a girl . @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# Right . That was the first experience of many where I realized that the vast majority of people that I encountered along the way were very supportive and only cared about whether or not I was competent , but every now and then you got somebody who did n't give you a chance and just want to throw a -- @!ANTHONY-MASON# @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ kind of resistance ? @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# To be honest with you , even from a young age it just motivated me . It really did . @!ANTHONY-MASON# Mm-Hm. @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# It motivated me . It was almost like a dare . @!ANTHONY-MASON# Yeah . @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# So , just to prove they 're wrong . @!ANTHONY-MASON# I 'm going to show you . @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# Yeah , yeah . @!ANTHONY-MASON# Yeah . @!NORAH-O'DONNELL# Describe what you were doing in Afghanistan , the helicopter you were flying , what your role was . @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# So , I was flying a rescue version of the Black Hawk , most people are familiar with the Black Hawk . It 's called the Pave Hawk . @!NORAH-O'DONNELL# Mm-Hm. @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# And we were supporting the med-evac mission , so just pulling wounded soldiers off the battlefield. @!ANTHONY-MASON# Mm-Hm. @!NORAH-O'DONNELL# How many women are flying those helicopters ? @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# More than you might think -- @!NORAH-O'DONNELL# Mm-Hm. @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# -- less than or fewer than it should be . So I -- I mean I had probably two or three in my unit . @!GAYLE-KING# But you take us to a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ one hour you 're shot by the Taliban , your aircraft was riddled with bullets , you landed in the heart of enemy territory and there you are . @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# Right . Yeah . It was a -- at the time it was n't really that scary . It was really just what we were trained to do . And -- and we were just doing our jobs . But it was a -- couple of days later it kind of -- @!GAYLE-KING# You guys killing -- we 're trained to do this . Listen , you had been wounded -- @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# -- sunk in. @!GAYLE-KING# You have been wounded , you 're bleeding . @!ANTHONY-MASON# Yeah . @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# It happened so fast though -- @!GAYLE-KING# Yeah , but -- @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# -- you know . @!GAYLE-KING# -- I 'm always saying , no , we were trained to do that . You say battle readiness has nothing to do with gender and everything to do -- @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# True . @!GAYLE-KING# -- with capability . " @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# Right . I 've seen men and women who were fit for combat that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ who I really would n't want to go back into combat with . So it really does n't have anything to do with gender . I feel like I have a warrior 's heart -- @!ANTHONY-MASON# Mm-Hm. @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# -- and it does n't have to do with anything -- @!ANTHONY-MASON# What is a warrior 's heart , by the way ? @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# Just a drive to protect people and to -- @!ANTHONY-MASON# Mm-Hm. @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# -- you know , run toward the -- the -- the emergency when everybody else is running away . @!ANTHONY-MASON# Yeah . @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# You know that that 's not something that you can choose to do . It 's just something that you reflex-do , or you don't. @!ANTHONY-MASON# Yeah . @!NORAH-O'DONNELL# Describe the backlash that -- that you experienced while trying to push women into combat roles . @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# It was significant but it 's a very vocal minority . The -- @!NORAH-O'DONNELL# Mm-Hm. @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# -- the vast majority of the messages that I receive are , you know , please keep doing what you 're doing , you 're inspiring my daughter or you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , fighting for us . But there are some really determined people out there who see it very threatening that a woman can do these jobs . @!NORAH-O'DONNELL# And , as you know -- @!ANTHONY-MASON# Does anyone -- @!NORAH-O'DONNELL# -- there were women in combat before they technically opened up -- @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# Absolutely . @!NORAH-O'DONNELL# -- the role to women in combat . @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# And for hundreds of years there have been women in combat -- @!NORAH-O'DONNELL# Right . @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# -- and people have been trying to stop that . @!NORAH-O'DONNELL# Yeah . @!ANTHONY-MASON# Does the military need to do more still ? @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# Absolutely . You know , that they 're doing a lot more than they get credit for . And that we have some amazing leaders . But then we have some leaders who turn a blind eye to things that contribute negatively to a really difficult culture for women . @!GAYLE-KING# I love the title of your book , Shoot like a Girl because it sounds it 's a negative thing about girls -- @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# Right . @!GAYLE-KING# -- but the reality is very different of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ taking the phrase back . @!GAYLE-KING# Yes , yes . @!NORAH-O'DONNELL# Because what does it mean ? @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# Yes . In reality and I hate to talk in stereotypes . But , stereotypically , physiologically , women are more -- we 're better predisposed to being marksmen and fighter pilots because of the way we handle Gs and because of our respiration and circulatory system and center of gravity and other -- other factors . @!GAYLE-KING# An instructor said that to you , but -- @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# Yeah . @!GAYLE-KING# -- there 's a great scene in the book where after you all have crashed , there was a big briefing -- people are patting themselves on the back . You 're the only one in the meeting , M.J. , that says , basically , where the hell were you , guys ? Because you felt you had been left stranded by another group . You 're the only one that stood up . @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# That gets me into trouble a lot . Yeah . I kind of looked around and I ca n't understand why nobody else is speaking @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ up I realize why nobody did . But -- but , at the time , I kind of look around like why is n't anyone say anything ? I will . @!NORAH-O'DONNELL# This is -- @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# And that 's been my whole life . @!NORAH-O'DONNELL# Your book has been optioned for a movie several times . @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# It has , yes . @!GAYLE-KING# Ah . @!NORAH-O'DONNELL# And what 's the latest on that ? @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# Tristar has it . Angelina Jolie is slated to play me. @!GAYLE-KING# Who ? @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# Angelina Jolie . Really excited that Jason Hall , Academy Award-nominated screenwriter from American Sniper , is attached to the project . @!ANTHONY-MASON# Yeah . It would be something to see it up on the screen . It 's true . @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# Yeah . We 're looking forward to it . @!ANTHONY-MASON# All right . Major Mary henning -- Mary Jennings Hegar , M.J. , thank you so much for being with us. @!MAJOR-MARY-JENNING# Thank you so much . @!ANTHONY-MASON# Shoot Like A Girl is on sale tomorrow . Top grossing movies like Bridesmaids are among the credits for writer @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in our Toyota Greenroom to explain how he revisited his standup comedy past for his latest project . But , first , a check of your local weather . @!GAYLE-KING# Do n't get -- @ ( LOCAL WEATHER BREAK ) @(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

@@4172941 @!JUDD-APATOW# It 's great to be here . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Good morning . @!MATT-LAUER# Crashing meaning crashing emotionally or physically crashing on someone 's couches ? @!JUDD-APATOW# Well , it 's about a comedian whose wife cheats on him . And then he goes to New York to try to be a successful comedian , but he 's not good at it . Yeah , so he sleeps on different people 's couches like Sarah Silverman and T.J. Miller and people like that . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# It 's funny . I watched it last night and I was thinking , okay , how do you make the fact that a standup comedian is horrible , how do you make that funny ? @!JUDD-APATOW# Yes . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# But you did it . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yes . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# It 's hilarious . @!JUDD-APATOW# We decided Pete do his real jokes for the extras in the audience . And then I make him do it like five times . And by the fifth time , they hate him and then they start not laughing and it feels like -- @!CARSON-DALY# Who 's not in this ? I mean , you got all the greats there @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Okay , finally . How do you keep things juggling at the same time ? @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . @!MATT-LAUER# You got movies working . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yes . @!MATT-LAUER# You 've got Girls entering the final season . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . @!MATT-LAUER# You got this show starting . Are you one of those guys who needs to have a lot of things working at once ? @!JUDD-APATOW# I do like to do a lot of things at once . It 's really fun . But it 's also you 're creating teams of people and I 'm just overseeing . So some shows , I 'm very busy on . And some I just pretend to do stuff on . @!MATT-LAUER# You guys think that -- did you -- did Girls do what you thought it was going to do ? Did it -- did the result of what we 've seen from Girls after all these seasons match your expectations ? @!JUDD-APATOW# Oh , absolutely , because HBO let us go as long as we wanted to go . They supported us . And hopefully the legacy of it in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is you know , it 's a female showrunner who is the writer , director , producer , star , it influences a lot of people to become leaders of shows . It influenced a lot of women . I know my kids are really influenced by being around Lena . @!MATT-LAUER# It opened a lot of doors . The reason you 're here also is because you 're going to host the next hour . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Yes . @!CARSON-DALY# Oh . @!JUDD-APATOW# Oh , what 's going to happen then ? @!CARSON-DALY# I 'm going to watch . @!MATT-LAUER# Have you done that for us here ? @!JUDD-APATOW# I 've done it a little bit . @!MATT-LAUER# Yeah ? @!JUDD-APATOW# Apparently , it went well enough to give me a shot to do it . @!CARSON-DALY# Yes . @!JUDD-APATOW# But things can go terribly awry . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Well , stick around . @!JUDD-APATOW# things might go wrong . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# We shall see . @!CARSON-DALY# Speaking of Crashing . @!MATT-LAUER# Crashing , by the way , premieres February 19th on HBO . We 'll see him in our next hour @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!SHEINELLE-JONES# It was a pleasure . @!CARSON-DALY# Good to see you . @!MATT-LAUER# We 're back after your local -- @(ANNOUNCEMENTS) @!SHEINELLE-JONES# ( audio cut ) pumping up the volume . Then from the new comedy , Crashing , Judd Apatow crashes our set . Plus sweets for your sweetie . Decadent desserts and hacks for Valentine 's Day , coming up now . @!ANNOUNCER# From NBC News , this is TODAY 's Take , live from Studio 1A in Rockefeller Plaza . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Good morning . Welcome to TODAY on this Monday morning , February 13 , 2017 . I 'm Sheinelle Jones along with two very special guest co-hosts . We 're holding it down for Al Roker this morning . We have director and producer Judd Apatow and TV and film star Brooke Shields . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Hello . Great to be here with you guys . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Good morning to both of you guys . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# So Al is in Ohio . So hopefully , we do n't have to do the weather . We 'll check in with him in just a few @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Thank you . @!JUDD-APATOW# Good to be here . This is destiny , the three of us. @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Yes ? @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# so . @!JUDD-APATOW# I feel like this is a long-term thing . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# You think so ? @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# I do , too . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah ? @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# We 're doing well so -- we 're doing okay . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# So far it 's been amazing . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# So far the chemistry is amazing . @!JUDD-APATOW# I hear there 's a lot of cash in this . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# I have to tell you , yesterday , my kids are going , what are you doing ? I have two phones as you can see here so I was going my homework on you on this phone . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Brooke , you , on this phone . So I feel like we 're so close at this point . @!JUDD-APATOW# Why do you need two phones ? @!SHEINELLE-JONES# I feel like I know more -- @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Yeah . And you 've got -- @!SHEINELLE-JONES# If you 're special -- @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# -- you get @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , I see . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Work and personal . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# And they merge at this point . All right . So we wanted to have a little fun with this dynamic duo . @!JUDD-APATOW# Okay . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# All right . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# So you at home , you play along . We 're going to play a game with this perfect title . It 's called Brooke , Judd or Both ? @!JUDD-APATOW# Oh . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Okay . So I 'm going to read a fact and then guess whether it 's true about Brooke , Judd or both and then you guys will reveal the answer . @!JUDD-APATOW# Okay . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# We have our little paddles here . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Yep . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# All right . Here we go . @!JUDD-APATOW# What if we do n't know ? @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Well , you 'll know if it 's not you . @!JUDD-APATOW# Well , I have a little dementia . I 'm not sure . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Okay . That makes it more entertaining . @!JUDD-APATOW# Okay . All right . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# All right . Here 's the first one @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Who graduated from Princeton University ? @!JUDD-APATOW# I 'm lying . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Did you ? @!JUDD-APATOW# I did not . I did not graduate . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Did you graduate from Princeton ? @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# I did graduate from Princeton. @!SHEINELLE-JONES# You 're such a genius . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Oh , yeah . @!JUDD-APATOW# I quit USC because I won the dating game . And the trip was during finals so I chose Acapulco -- Acapulco and left . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Judd , are you serious ? @!JUDD-APATOW# I wish I was n't serious but I actually did . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Did you win the dating game ? @!JUDD-APATOW# I won the dating game and they -- @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# You won the dating -- @!JUDD-APATOW# -- they said this is the week you have to go and I -- so I said , all right , I have to drop out of school . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# No way . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# How was the date ? @!JUDD-APATOW# I did not get lucky . I did not . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# You had to go with the person ? @!JUDD-APATOW# I went with her . She @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ came around -- you know , you come around and then -- @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Oh , so you did like the real thing . @!JUDD-APATOW# I did the real thing . I came around and she went like ah . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# So you charmed her . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Oh , no. @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# No. @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Well , look how great she turned out , so ha . All right . Who was once named Entertainment Weekly 's Smartest Person in Hollywood speaking of which ? @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah , yeah . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Is that you ? Let 's give him a round of applause . @!JUDD-APATOW# Two thousand seven . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# So there you go . @!JUDD-APATOW# I was so smart ten years ago then it all fell apart . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Even though you did n't go to graduate . @!JUDD-APATOW# See ? @!SHEINELLE-JONES# That had to feel like an honor , right ? @!JUDD-APATOW# It was an honor because I beat Will Smith . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Yeah , well . @!JUDD-APATOW# I can say I beat everybody , I mean , everyone in show business . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# I loved it . @!JUDD-APATOW# I mean @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Did you get greater respect around your peers like just walking around ? @!JUDD-APATOW# I really did n't get that much respect just because Entertainment Weekly is n't like that respected . I mean , it was n't like The New York Times said it , you know . It 's Entertainment Weekly . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Listen , no magazine has ever said it for us so . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah , exactly . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Yeah . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# All right . So here 's another one . Who has two daughters and is married to a funny person ? @!JUDD-APATOW# I wonder . -- @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# I 'm going to say -- @!JUDD-APATOW# -- both of us. @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Yeah . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Oh , that 's fair . Look at that . @!JUDD-APATOW# Right . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Yeah . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Who are you married to , Brooke ? @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# I 'm married to Chris Henchy . And you 're married to -- @!JUDD-APATOW# Brilliant writer , producer Chris Henchy. @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Yes . @!JUDD-APATOW# And my wife is the great Leslie Mann . I always Leslie . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Instead of Leslie . @!JUDD-APATOW# And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it 's Leslie . It 's Leslie . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# How long have you been married ? @!JUDD-APATOW# Just twenty years in June . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Okay . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# No. @!JUDD-APATOW# But I got to get the pronunciation right . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# You 've got to do that right . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# So , wait -- so for how many years did you say -- you said Leslie ? @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Leslie . @!JUDD-APATOW# I said Leslie , the Long Island way . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Like with a Z. @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . I only did that for nineteen years . I said why did n't you tell me earlier ? @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Did you say it right in the vows ? @!JUDD-APATOW# I do n't think I did . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Like I take you -- @!JUDD-APATOW# I take you , Leslie . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Leslie . @!JUDD-APATOW# But she said I did n't want to correct you because I thought you would n't be able to -- @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# In front of everybody . @!JUDD-APATOW# No . She thought I would n't be able to adjust it . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# That is hilarious . @!JUDD-APATOW# And so -- @!SHEINELLE-JONES# So @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ she finally said , hey , honey , can I tell you , my name is actually Leslie ? @!JUDD-APATOW# That 's a good question . I 'm not sure . But I said I -- If I have to change the pronunciation of your name , then you have to call me Judd Apatow. @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Oh , I like that . It sounds so fancy -- @!JUDD-APATOW# Exactly . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# -- and smart , like you are . All right , here 's the next one . @!JUDD-APATOW# Okay . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Who wrote the line , " Marriage is like a tense , unfunny version of Everybody Loves Raymond , only it does n't last twenty-two minutes , it lasts forever . " @!JUDD-APATOW# I 'm saying Brooke because I might get in trouble the way you pulled it out . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Really ? Did I read it wrong ? @!JUDD-APATOW# I mean Valentine 's Day is tomorrow . That does n't help me out at all . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Was that you ? @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# I 'll say it lasts forever . @!JUDD-APATOW# I do n't believe that at all @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ -- @!SHEINELLE-JONES# And you 've been married for what ? @!JUDD-APATOW# Twenty years in June . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Twenty years . Fifteen . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Really ? @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Yeah . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . It 's a long time . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# And I 'm ten in September . @!JUDD-APATOW# I got a big Valentine 's Day coming up tomorrow . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Oh , really ? @!JUDD-APATOW# Oh , yeah . We 're going to Mar-a-Lago. @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Oh . @!JUDD-APATOW# We 're going to be golfing with the prime minister of Japan . It 's going to be fantastic . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# I believe that . All right . Here 's the next one . Who has a new weekly radio show on SiriusXM starting today ? @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Starting today . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Really ? @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Yep , noon . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Congratulations . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Thank you . Got noon one day . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# What are you going to be talking about ? @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Everything . I 've got -- I mean , Kathie Lee and Hoda are on . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Nice . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Andy Cohen is going to be on today . Wanda @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!JUDD-APATOW# That 's a big lineup . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Oh , that 's going to be great . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# People just keep saying yes . And we 're going to -- @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Maybe you 're going to be over there . @!JUDD-APATOW# I 'm going to be there so I might just drop by . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# You will . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# I feel like you guys are so busy . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Totally . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Look at the list of projects . you guys always have things in the works . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# it 's important to keep -- @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Yeah . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# You mean , you 're the one -- @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# -- that always has so , so much . I mean I ca n't handle not being busy . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# I understand that . @!JUDD-APATOW# What happens if you 're not busy ? @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# I panic . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# I panic and I get really dark . I get depressed . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah , yeah . I understand that . I get that way . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# And I 'm grouchy to my kids . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I 'm doing all these things , my daughters will be like , you 're being really nice , mom . @!JUDD-APATOW# And so see I 'm hosting the TODAY Show . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Yeah , duh. @!SHEINELLE-JONES# You 're a better person . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# I 'm a better person . I 'm happier , really . And I 'm nicer to them . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# I love it . I should mention this is also obviously a very busy time for you . We talked about the fact the final season premiere of Girls last night which you -- @!JUDD-APATOW# Yes , last night . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# -- executive produced . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Executive produced . It was wonderful . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Yeah . @!JUDD-APATOW# Did we get to see it ? @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Yep . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Yes . How are you feeling inside ? @!JUDD-APATOW# It 's very sad that it 's ending . It 's six years . But I really like the final season . And Lena is a genius in this . Great . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# And Lena and you have such a great relationship and rapport with her . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I read that in the Times . But also there 's the future . You 'll -- when you have that kind of chemistry , you 'll continue . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# It 's sort of like a beginning as well as the end . @!JUDD-APATOW# It 's hard to find people that you comedically jive with . You know , we have a good time . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# That was a nice phrase , comedically jive. @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Can I steal that ? @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# He is the smartest guy . @!JUDD-APATOW# I 'm a hit with the kids and their current lingo. @!SHEINELLE-JONES# You 've also got Crashing premiering this Sunday -- @!JUDD-APATOW# Yes . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# -- which we 're going to talk about -- @!JUDD-APATOW# Yes . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# -- in just a bit . So it got us thinking that you 've really worked with every funny person in Hollywood . @!JUDD-APATOW# Mm-Hm. @!SHEINELLE-JONES# So we wanted to do a quick celebrity word association . @!JUDD-APATOW# Okay . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# You ready ? @!JUDD-APATOW# Yes . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# So we 're going to show you a famous funny @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ -- and then you 'll say the first thing that comes to mind . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Okay . @!JUDD-APATOW# Okay . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# All right . Take it away , Brooke . @!BROOKE-SHIELDSA# All right . Amy Schumer. @!JUDD-APATOW# Is it like a superfast thing ? @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Yeah , yes , yes . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Faster , faster . @!JUDD-APATOW# Hysterical . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Steve Carell. @!JUDD-APATOW# Hair-ripping-off-body funny . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# LeBron James . @!JUDD-APATOW# I dominated him . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Ooh , okay . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Good one . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Seth Rogen. @!JUDD-APATOW# Seth Rogen , oddly right about everything . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Wow . All right . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Best , funniest ever , Leslie Mann . @!JUDD-APATOW# Oh , yeah . The smartest , most brilliant , great partner in everything that we do . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Aw . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Aw . That 's good . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# I love that . @!JUDD-APATOW# And more right about things than Seth Rogen . Clearly , Seth is not the one who knows . It 's Leslie . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# That 's how you know you 're in love . Your voice goes all in. @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Yeah @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ said Leslie ? @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Yeah . You said Leslie . @!JUDD-APATOW# I did . I did . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# All right . So we have to talk about the Grammys obviously . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# And I said Leslie . @!JUDD-APATOW# Oh , yes , the Grammys. @!SHEINELLE-JONES# They were last night . @!JUDD-APATOW# Fill me in . I did n't -- I did n't see it . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Really ? @!JUDD-APATOW# I did n't see it . Did Beyonce win ? @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Kind of . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Sort of . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Kind of sort of . @!JUDD-APATOWA# She won but just by being Beyonce. @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Well , there 's that . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Just by being Beyonce. @!JUDD-APATOW# Yes . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# She 's a walking piece of art . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# But , I mean , the baby is like the best addition to anything . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yes . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Like if you 've got the baby , it 's the best accessory . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# I agree . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# I mean , it was an incredible -- I mean , I felt bad because her daughter was not paying attention when she stood up and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# But that whole opening and that song with that body , I just loved it . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# That was amazing . @!JUDD-APATOW# That 's a bold move to bring your child on stage . How old is -- is -- @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# She did n't bring her on stage . She was sitting -- @!JUDD-APATOW# Oh , in the audience . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# She is right in the audience . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yes . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# And she had a little like Mickey Mouse purse and she was playing with the Mickey Mouse purse and she was going I love my children and my -- you know . She was so beautiful and poised . And that -- how do you two from that , the whole number that she did was extraordinary . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# I do n't even know . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# And that baby belly -- @!SHEINELLE-JONES# I have twins . And I feel like I walked around in yoga pants and Maxie dresses . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# But there 's the celebration of it which is so -- everybody was worried about her in the chair . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yes . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# That @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Pregnant person should not do a lean back in the chair move . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# I mean -- @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# It was on like a pulley -- I mean , not a pulley but it was on this like a lever system so I was n't as worried but -- @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# But whoever was in charge of that system , I mean , that 's one of those things where -- @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Can you imagine ? @!SHEINELLE-JONES# No. @!JUDD-APATOW# Yes . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# My hand will be shaking . @!JUDD-APATOW# I do n't think a pregnant person should even wear a headdress that pointy . It 's all dangerous . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# It 's art . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Well -- @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# She took home about five Grammys. @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Exactly . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# I mean , you can wear whatever you want if you 've got -- if you 're taking home five awards . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Exactly . So you have Beyonce and then the other big winner of the evening was , of course , Adele . @!JUDD-APATOW# Adele , yeah . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# She took home a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , record of the year and song of the year for Hello . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Yes . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# She had a crazy night as well . She opened the show performing Hello . And then this is being talked about today . She had a tribute to George Michael . She stopped mid-performance for a redo . Let 's listen and then we 'll chat . @!ADELE- ( CBS/The-Rec# I know it 's live TV . I 'm sorry . I ca n't do it like last year . I 'm sorry for swearing . And I 'm sorry for starting again . Can we please start it again ? I 'm sorry . I ca n't mess this up for him . I 'm sorry . I can't. @!JUDD-APATOW# That 's Adele . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# you 're right . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yes . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# But it 's also -- she 's human . She owned it . She knew that she would be angry with herself after . And , you know , I mean it 's the kind of thing -- I did that when I was -- had to sing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I messed up . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Wait . So you stopped ? @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# I stopped but I had to stop three times . And I wanted to die . @!JUDD-APATOW# Let 's go to the footage of that . Do we have that ? We do n't ? We do n't ? @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Well , my husband was amazing . I texted him . I said I 've just ruined my entire career . And he said do you have to go up on stage and I said , yes . He said curse . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Cursed . And so I got up on stage and I cursed and then they forgot totally about the messed up . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Well , there you go . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# She made it human for everybody . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# she -- and she did it out of respect for George . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# I agree . I agree . Really quickly , too , James Corden . I mean , he hosted the show which meant a very special version of carpool karaoke . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Yeah . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Everybody is tweeting @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ( Excerpt from The Grammys , CBS/The Recording Academy ) @!SHEINELLE-JONES# That 's classic . I mean , what do you think about this carpool karaoke ? It 's turning into such a thing . @!JUDD-APATOW# I got to ask that you -- they 're doing some version of it for Apple . They asked me to do it . I said that is the biggest mistake you 've ever made is asking me . But I said no . No one wants that at all . Judgment is off . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# And then the rap one , the rap-off , too . Have you seen that ? @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Oh , that 's right . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Anne Hathaway did that . And they all -- and it was -- @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Hard to top . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# he 's -- you know , people trust him . And I do n't think that he wants them to look bad so . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# That 's true . That 's true . All right . Up next , Brooke is rocking the runway once again in her Calvins , but you 've never @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ world talking and you 'll see why , right after this . @(ANNOUNCEMENTS) @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Back now with more TODAY 's Take . And our guest co-hosts , Judd Apatow and Brooke Shields . Good morning again to you guys . @!JUDD-APATOW# Good to be here . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Good morning . Nice to be here . @!JUDD-APATOW# Still looking for the perfect Valentine 's Day date ? @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Actually yes . @!JUDD-APATOW# Which is actually , it 's late . It 's late . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# I know . @ ( Cross talking ) @!JUDD-APATOW# I 've been working on it for six months . Burger King might have you covered with an incredible innovation . And women love when you have gifts from Burger King . Take a look . @ ( Excerpt from Burger King ad ) @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Ooh . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Hey , now . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . You can imagine anything . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Wow . It 's a very Lady and the Tramp moment . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . Very sweet . That 's -- that 's beautiful . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# I said -- @!JUDD-APATOW# I would n't like that commercial @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . I say , no actually . I would n't do this . @ ( Cross talking ) @!JUDD-APATOW# He loves the fast-food. @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# There 's a lot -- what about -- @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Well -- @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Backwash or ? I do n't know . I feel weird about that . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Judd , would you do this @!JUDD-APATOW# Would I do that ? @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Yeah . @!JUDD-APATOW# I 'm sure I 'd it , you know , with my kids . I am always eating their food and they 're furious . So I 'm always , you know , like -- or if they look away , I grab something . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Really ? @!JUDD-APATOW# It 's a big fight in our house . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# What about you ? @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# With my kids , you know , there 's always like the ten-second rule or whatever . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Yes . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# I mean I 'd pick something up off of the ground and stick it back in their mouth like they 're fine . They 're antibodies. @!JUDD-APATOW# Oh , sure . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# They 're good . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# See @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ germs . I mean -- @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# -- the -- the germs of a preschooler will have you out for five , six days . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Get me little petri dishes . @!JUDD-APATOW# you 're supposed to expose yourself to germs . That 's -- you do n't get sick if you expose yourself like you wipe your hand on a dirty surface like here like if I like licked it , I wo n't get sick . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Right . @!JUDD-APATOW# It 's magic . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# But then the four-year-old and then I have a flu . Anyway . All right . So big fashion news over the weekend . We have to squeeze this in . Brooke 's iconic 1980 ad for Calvin Klein has been resurrected -- @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# No pun intended . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# -- in the label of -- @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Squeezing it in. @!SHEINELLE-JONES# -- their new jeans . When you see this what do you think ? @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# You know , it 's nostalgia . I could n't believe when they called and asked me . We 've been working on it for a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the label . And when I was at the fashion show nobody really knew that I was just there to sort of support Raf , the new designer . And then they all -- the jeans walked by and my label is there . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# So on the back waist of the jeans ? @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# I 'm on -- I 'm on on everybody 's butt . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# How cool is that ? @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Take it . Yeah . It 's pretty cool . Look at that thing , it 's kind of funny . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# How about that ? @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Oh , it made me laugh . It was -- I 'm really proud of it because it 's -- it 's a good nod . It 's nostalgic . But it 's not -- it 's not- - it 's done in the right light , @!JUDD-APATOW# I do n't think I could have done that kind of ad at that age . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# No . I could n't even do it now . @!JUDD-APATOW# I did n't have -- I did n't look that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!JUDD-APATOW# I did n't do that . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# You can always try the pose if you want to . Al , there you go . You can have that patch -- wait -- women 's jeans or women and men ? @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# It 's all . Yep . Women , men . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Anybody , you can -- there you go . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# Yep . Women , men . I 'll get you a pair , Al . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# On -- on your butt . Just wherever you go . @!BROOKE-SHIELDS# I 'm going to be on your butt , Al , all the time . AL ROKER : They actually -- they -- they actually have a picture of me on a pair of overalls . So it 's really -- @!SHEINELLE-JONES# There you go . @!JUDD-APATOW# I 'm wearing Al Roker jeans right now . AL ROKER : That 's right . On Cathcart jeans , Cathcart overalls . There is me. @!SHEINELLE-JONES# How is the weather ? AL ROKER : Anyway -- well , you know , we 're here in White House -- Washington Courthouse , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ by golly , we 've still got some blizzard-like conditions in parts of Maine . And we 've even got lake-effect snow from Erie into -- into parts of Watertown , New York . And even at Eastern New York , we 're seeing some snow . But the big snows , as this low pressure pulls away , it strengthens potential blizzard conditions along the coast . Not just for the snow but the blowing and drifting snow . And when those winds , we 're going to be looking -- you can see , we 're talking about upwards of twelve inches of snow in parts of Down East Maine . But winds stretching from the spine of the Appalachians all the way into New England . Warnings of fifty to sixty miles per hour . In the warning areas advisories , forty to fifty mile per hour winds . Quite frankly , I 'm a little nervous about trying to get back into New York today because the wind gusts are going to be so strong . So , Judd , maybe you 're filling in again @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ country . Here 's what 's happening in your neck of the woods . @ ( Weather follows ) AL ROKER : I 'm missing two of my favorite people Judd Apatow and Brooke Shields . My gosh -- and , of course , Sheinelle but I mean Sheinelle is there . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# That 's fine . Well , I 'll -- I 'll keep them here until you get back . Thank you , Al . All right . Up next , start your Valentine 's Day on a sweet note . Our pal Justin Chapple has -- Chapple -- excuse me -- has some easy last-minute treats , right after this . @(ANNOUNCEMENTS) @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Tomorrow is Valentine 's Day . But before you run out to buy a box of chocolates , food and senior editor -- Food & Wine senior editor Justin Chapple has some homemade hacks to impress your sweetheart . Good morning to you . @!JUSTIN-CHAPPLE# Thanks for having me. @!SHEINELLE-JONES# I 'll let you start with Judd and I move out of your way . @!JUSTIN-CHAPPLE# Okie-dokie. @!JUDD-APATOW# All right . @!JUSTIN-CHAPPLE# We 're @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!JUSTIN-CHAPPLE# So we 're doing heart-shaped cinnamon rolls . @!JUDD-APATOW# Excellent . @!JUSTIN-CHAPPLE# All you do is you -- you know -- you buy the ones in the grocery store . And you unroll half of it just like this . @!JUDD-APATOW# Okay . @!JUSTIN-CHAPPLE# And then roll it back up on to itself . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yes . @!JUSTIN-CHAPPLE# Pinch the edge . @!JUDD-APATOW# And you 've turned it into a Valentine . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Oh , cute . @!JUSTIN-CHAPPLE# You -- and then you ice it . Put little sprinkles on it . And there you go . @!JUDD-APATOW# I have a question . If we deregulate banking and the economy collapses , can we make these with dog food ? @!JUSTIN-CHAPPLE# You can always make them with cinnamon rolls . @!JUDD-APATOW# Okay , good . Good . @!JUSTIN-CHAPPLE# Okay . So next up , we 're going to something a little sweet . As you could see , we have these beautiful brownies here . And all you do is take a little piece of paper , cut , you know , a heart out of it . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ sugar . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# That 's creating . @!JUSTIN-CHAPPLE# And we can take off the stencil , you get these beautiful little Be My Valentine brownies . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Easy enough . @!JUDD-APATOW# Excellent . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# These are very doable , Justin . You know , sometimes they 're not . These are actually hard . @!JUSTIN-CHAPPLE# No . These are super doable. @!JUDD-APATOW# You did such a good job making these . @!JUSTIN-CHAPPLE# I do , you know , I buy wafer cookies like the best of them . And these are great for school . All you do is -- sorry -- dip them into melted white chocolate . Put a little sprinkle on them and you get these fun to go Valentine snacks . @!JUDD-APATOW# It tastes like pink . @!JUSTIN-CHAPPLE# It tastes like -- @!SHEINELLE-JONES# It tastes like pink . @!JUSTIN-CHAPPLE# Everything tastes like pink today and it should because it 's Valentine's. @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Now whoa , what is this ? @!JUSTIN-CHAPPLE# So we 're jazzing up our breakfast again . Here we are with some confetti pancakes . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Okay . @!JUSTIN-CHAPPLE# So a lot of people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ All you do is you add rainbow sprinkles to your pancake batter . Scoop it into the pan and -- @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Do you cook , Judd ? @!JUDD-APATOW# I would n't cook something like that -- - @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Yeah . @!JUDD-APATOW# -- because that 's a -- that 's a heart attack right there . @!JUSTIN-CHAPPLE# What are you talking about ? You have your fruit . @!JUDD-APATOW# I would sprinkle Lipitor all over it . @!JUSTIN-CHAPPLE# There you go . Look at that . I did n't even think to garnish it with a little rainbow sprinkles. @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Oh , see now ? @!JUDD-APATOW# See ? Look , I can do this . @!JUSTIN-CHAPPLE# So you 're the mad genius now . @!JUDD-APATOW# Oh , yeah . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# So easy enough . And you stack them up and then fall about love . @!JUSTIN-CHAPPLE# That 's all it is. @!JUDD-APATOW# That 's all it is. @!SHEINELLE-JONES# All right . @!JUSTIN-CHAPPLE# I 'm going to get these going . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Yeah . And then what did you put in between ? @!JUSTIN-CHAPPLE# In between is some whipped cream . And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ your favorite syrup . I like strawberry because it 's red . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . @!JUSTIN-CHAPPLE# And just drizzle little on top . There you go . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# And there you go . Justin , thank you . @!JUDD-APATOW# Yeah . Thanks again . @!SHEINELLE-JONES# Happy Valentine 's Day to you . All right . Well , we showed you some short -- sweet shortcuts . Now for all the overachievers out there , we have a couple of seriously decadent desserts from chef extraordinaire Ryan Scott , after your local news . @(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

@@4173041 @!DONALD-TRUMP-JR. # Well , it just goes to show you their exact moral compass . I mean , they 'll say anything to be able to win this . I mean , this is time and time again , lie after lie . You know , he wo n't say , well , I say this , we hear experts , you know , his housecat at home once said that this is what 's happening with the Russians . It 's disgusting . It 's so phony . @!DONALD-TRUMP-JR. # I mean , to me , it 's without a question , you know , reads and smells like a witch hunt . Right . Lock him up . So ... Lock him up . Lock him up . So , some folks are kind of saying , you know , listen , he did n't commit a crime . You know , but , well , he 's not the president of the United States , but certainly , if they asked him this question , did you all have any conversations with Russia , and this gentleman said , no , it 's a lie , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Feds could get him on that . Lying , lying , lying . Well , the important distinction that I kind of wrestled with yesterday was when we first found out that he met with someone , and they did n't quite know who the person was going to be , it was a Russian lawyer that had Kremlin ties , but we do n't know if they were there , you know , on behalf of the government . Right . So that was an important distinction for me . This email saying he not only knew that this was , they were carrying information from the Russian government , that was a game-changer for me . So when this broke last night , I was , like , okay , there was a little gray area , now it 's not so gray anymore . Well , it 's always the lie that gets people in trouble , right . That was sort of Nixon 's downfall . It 's always the coverup , and I just remember when I was interviewing witnesses , I would say , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , it 's perjury , five years in jail . Do n't lie to me . But it has to be under oath . Does n't it have to be under oath ? Yeah , yeah , but I would say that , and , and I 've got to tell you ... Start ( inaudible ) . People are saying , well , this is n't a crime . it could be . It could be sort of a violation of federal campaign laws . But even if it is n't , what federal prosecutors are looking at and these investigators , they 're looking at little pieces of the puzzle . There 's never the smoking gun that everybody talks about . It 's always those little layers . Well , the email is a smoking gun , is n't it ? Kind of . It depends what it says . But Russia , Russia , Russia , Russia . Listen , people , there 's a lot of ... Russia , Russia , Russia . There 's a lot of Russia , Russia , Russia , Russia @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to throw the boy under the bus because the first thing they said was , my father was n't there , he did n't have anything to do with this . He 's capable of turning on his own child , I have a feeling , not Ivanka . I do n't think so . loyalty means ... Yeah , but what if , what if this , what if Donald Trump Sr was the one who told him to take this meeting , though ? I have a really hard time believing that this meeting happened , and Donald Trump , President Trump , did n't know about it . Did n't know about it . And nobody knew . Of course he knows everything they do . What 's interesting , though , is the Russian lawyer has come out and said she 's not affiliated with the Kremlin , she 's never worked with the Russian government and that she never had damaging information on Hillary . Sure . She never had the information . But there 's more to that statement . Do you have the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a statement . I 'm just giving a summary . I do n't have a statement . Oh , okay , all right . But , but the truth is that if he , if Donald Trump Jr thought that she was , at the time , affiliated with the Kremlin and that a Russian source had this information , this opposition research , you have to wonder . That 's solicitation . The question for me is why you would go , and you would , A , trust those sources , and , B , collude with the Russians to potentially , you know , make our election process compromised . Let me read her thing , though , because it 's important to hear . In an NBC News interview this morning , the lawyer , Natalia Veselnitskaya , said Donald Trump Jr asked her whether she had any financial records that might prove the funds used to sponsor the DNC were coming from inappropriate sources . That 's what she 's saying , that 's what she 's saying that he asked her . Yeah , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ The ask is very important under the law , but the other thing she talked about during that interview , if I recall , was that she talked about Russian adoption . And that had to do with the sanctions . If you 're talking about sanctions , that is also a problem . So , again , investigators are sort of looking at these little pieces of the puzzle . Listen , where there 's smoke , there 's fire , and there seems to be a lot of smoke . The issue of collusion , though , just to point out , the issue of collusion , Sarah Huckabee Sanders did make one good point , I thought . She pointed out , this is not related to Donald Trump , that the DNC had coordinated opposition research directly with the Ukrainian embassy in the past . And I remember there was a Politico story in January , it talked about how Ukrainian government officials had helped Clinton 's allies get damaging information on Trump ... What does that have to do with this ? No , what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do with is if you hear about collusion ... Hold on , wait , stop . Stop ... You have to go across the board . Hillary Clinton is not the president . Stop , we 're going . Later , one bad mother ? A mom 's viral rant about why she curses in front of her kids . Are the ladies speaking her language ? Welcome back . Some very odd stuff has just happened over the commercial break . Fredo , Donald Trump Jr , just tweeted about the email exchange that he supposedly had about the meeting with the Russian attorney . We 're trying to figure out why he would do that because what 's in here seems very , very clear . Incriminating . And very incriminating . So we 're kind of thinking this might have been put out so they can say , see , gotcha . Who is going to say that ? Who is going say that ? I mean ... Them . If it 's not , just hear me out . You mean if it 's fake ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ saying . So , I 'm saying to y'all , we 're not sure . We 're not . Yeah , yeah , yeah . He tweeted this , Donald Trump Jr . But this is what , this is what we 're being told , that Donald Trump Jr tweeted this . And there it is . Now , you circle , so it 's too small for me to read any way . So it 's ... And I , and I agree , Whoopi , because Rachel Maddow actually just , just reported said people were sending her things that were likely not correct to sort of have a gotcha moment with the media . So assuming that , you know , that could be true , but ... So keep that in mind . Keep that in mind . We 're telling you it may be BS . This may be a hoax . And we would correct it if it were . But this may be a hoax . But what it does say is , this email went to Donald Trump Jr , " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Aris , this morning , and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary in her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father . This is obviously very high-level and sensitive information , but as part of Russian and its government 's support for Mr. Trump , I can also send this info to your father , via ( inaudible ) , but it is ultra-sensitive so wanted to send to you first . " And that was in June , last June . So that , that little tidbit ... That 's quite a smoking gun . Where you say part of Russia and its government support for Mr. Trump , that 's a problem because now you have an acknowledgment by Rob Goldstone that , if this is true , that this is affiliated with Russia , A , it 's an effort by Russia and its government to undermine Hillary Clinton and impact our election , and then , if he read this , if Trump Jr read this , and then @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not look good . It 's a violation of campaign laws . That 's a problem . You know why it 's suspicious ? You know why it 's suspicious ? Because even the Junior is not that stupid that he would put this out . It 's very strange . Yeah , I do n't ... That 's what strains credulity . I find this , I find it really , really hard to believe . That 's why ... That 's why I 'm ' saying , he actually put this out ? That sounds ... I find that hard to believe . It 's like they handcuffed themselves . Maybe he 's really that dumb . Although , look , the Twitter , the Twitter account , Donald , allegedly Donald Trump Jr tweeted to everyone , " In order to be totally transparent , I 'm releasing the entire email chain of my emails with Rob Goldstone about the meeting in 2016 . " So it ... How do they confirm that this is real ? How do they do that ? I do n't know @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . It 's coming , it 's coming from his account , I was told . It is coming from ... Well , it may be coming from his account . That does n't mean that it 's real . That does n't mean that it 's real . They might have hacked into his account . No I do n't think they hacked in , but , you know , as I told you the other day , the governor from Maine . Yeah , oh yeah . Talked about how he liked to put ... Plant things ... Plant stuff out there that was crap just to see people flip out about it . What a scary time . Well , it is scary times , but if , if , in fact , this is BS , and you put it out to get attention , so you got our attention now . And you know who else is paying attention now to you ? The people you were trying to placate . You 're trying to placate the government guys , now they 're going to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you what . Yeah , investigators do n't like this . They do n't like because if this is , if you sent this out to set them up . Yeah . that might have been a large mistake on your part , Fredo . But hey , do n't listen to me . Watch the movie . Okay . By the way , can I , I want to say one small thing , one small thing about what I was talking about , the couch before . Remember that ? My friend , Jill , back to ... Back to something really important , sorry . Back to fake , fake , lying , lying and fake news . My friend Jill just tweeted me , and she said she was , she said that she paid $15,000 for that couch in London . That 's ridiculous . Not $5,000 . So everybody is making up stories . $15,000 ? Fifteen . We 're sticking with her ( inaudible ) . I mean , if it 's true ... We 'll , we 'll , this is , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ us . But I , we do n't ever want to bring you , if it smells funny to us , we 're going to say it smells a little weird . We 'll let you know . We 'll tell you what 's going on , but it smelled a wee bit strange . But either it 's true , but either it 's true , and he does n't realize that this is , it 's like , incriminating things . He has an attorney now . He has an attorney . What attorney would allow their client to do this ? Or , or he 's making light of it and making a mockery of something that people are concerned about . So either way , this is not a good look . Right , that 's , that 's why , it 's not going to work . Either he 's an idiot , or he thinks Mueller is an idiot . Somebody , in other words , they 're going to use this against this guy . But he has an attorney . He 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ counsel would allow him to tweet this out . As you know ... It makes no sense . Because you , yes , you all ca n't act like this is a surprise to you , this family does n't care what their attorney says . That 's true . That 's true . There 's , it 's , it does n't , you know , so keep in mind that he said , yeah , nothing 's going the happen to me . Hubris is an amazing thing . When you think you 're above it all , the crash is tough . Now , you know , again , if it 's true , I 'm sure they , this is not going to stop . If it 's not true , we got you first , we 're hip to you . We 'll be right back . You know , it kind of , folks are saying most Republicans think that there 's something else negative having an impact on America , and it 's college . Now , a Pew Research Center poll found @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ negative impact on the country . So is that the problem we need to be dealing with is that college is the issue ? Or is the question , should everybody go to college ? Does everybody need to go to college ? I mean , that 's ... I 'm really disturbed by the notion that a majority , that these Republicans think that college is n't important . I mean , especially as a person of color , I mean , education is the great equalizer , right ? We were n't allowed to be educated , and that 's why you had the rise of HBCUs . And , you know , if you , if you look , if you look at the stats , people that have a college degree earn more money , they make more money . They have a better living . Sometimes . Sometimes . Sometimes . And , you know , there are people that have n't gone to college , they 're the , their success may be the exception . I mean , the general rule ... No @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ We need people to , you need plumbers . But you 're , you 're an EGOT . You 're an exception . No , no , I 'm not talking about me . But I 'm not an exception . I 'm somebody who could n't do college . I could n't go to college because of the way my brain works . So I had to find a different way . Yes , I get that . But not everybody is meant to go to college . I do n't think it 's for everyone . And for me , you know , I say this all the time . But , in the state of New Jersey , there are maybe 25 plumbers . That 's all ? That 's it . It 's not a lot of plumbers in New Jersey because there are no schools , no trade schools . We need those . Trade schools are important . Vocational training is something that ... Well , you need vocational training , but not everybody is meant to be in that structure . It was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I like to , I do , I liked school . You like , you love to learn , yes , you know . But I , and I agree . vocational schools are very important . training is very important . following your passion is very important . We talked about our hairdresser , hair stylist Derek Monroe , ( PH ) who , you know , is fantastic at what he does . But that if you look at the stats as a whole ... If you can go , you should go . If you can go , you should go . Wait , there are a lot of people choose different routes , though . There are people that go into the military , and bonus for them . Then if they decide to go to school , they might get their education paid for . There 's vocational training , there 's also AmeriCorps and Peace Corps , people that spend a year maybe giving back , a time of duty . just structured , four-year , you know , liberal arts , it 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be for everyone . Do you remember when Trump was running , he said I love the educated , I love the poorly educated . The Republican Party may like the poorly educated because they vote for them . Oh , that 's not fair . That 's not fair . Well , that , why was he saying that ? There 's a lot of very well-educated , very successful people out there voting for Republicans , I promise you that . Why ? .. Why ? Why would they , tell me why ... Why ? Tell me why Why would they vote for Republicans ? Yeah , well , no , why , why would , hold on a second . Why would somebody vote for Trump besides people who do n't really understand ... a lot of people voted for Trump because they thought he was going to advocate for lower taxes for them . And that 's all they care about . Well , listen , if you ca n't put food on the table to feed your family ... That 's something else . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ percent of your income , 40 percent of your income leave ... I 'm not talking about , I 'm talking about rich people , rich people who voted for him . Why ? Why ? Rich people , maybe rich people , rich people do n't pay their health care costs for them and their family . Define rich for me . Half the , those rich people that are labeled rich oftentimes are giving half of their money , 50 percent of their money ... Oh , my heart breaks . Were n't we talking about college ? We were talking about college . No , no , no , no . Talking about college ? But again , what the issue is , Republicans are saying that college is bad . And we should be very ... Well , first of all , we do n't know these people are that are polled . Fifty-eight percent of Republicans now say   that colleges are having a negative effect on the way things are going in the country . But you do n't know why . I have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is a bias on many college campuses , on the majority of college campuses . I 've seen it . I 've lectured at a bunch of college campuses . I 've taught on college campuses . So have I , actually . I 've done a lot of lecturing , and ... that 's what they 're referencing , that there is a bias that students come out with , A , and then , B , maybe they were also saying ... And then they read . No , they read , you do n't believe that there 's a bias in the majority , there 's not a liberal bias in the majority of colleges ? This is what 's crazy to me . We all went to college here , okay . Not me . All right , she did n't . All right . And she 's the most successful one , arguably . Whoopi Goldberg ... Yeah , but you 're well-studied , though . You 're well-studied . Whoopi Goldberg is what they call an autodidact . She is a self-learner . And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ college . In college , they opened my eyes . I read philosophy , I read sociology , I read it , and then .. You saw black people . Yes , I did . No , I saw them in ... She 's from Brooklyn , it was n't the first time . Please , and I went to the same high school you did . Yes . So I saw plenty of black people . But that is crazy . This is like , I see dead people , I see black people . I 'm making a GIF of that . But , but for the majority of folks who go to college , it does open their eyes . You 're suddenly surrounded by lots of different people . That 's what , that was what I was trying to say . And educated people will vote in their own interests . A lot of times , people do not vote in their own interests because they do n't have the tools to understand this con man and what he 's told them . Oh , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ You ( inaudible ) , no , I 'm sorry . You 're not giving people enough credit . I do n't think that gives people nearly enough credit . If you ca n't pay for your health insurance , if you ca n't put food on you table for the family , I do n't care what your level of education is ... You make more money when you go to college . You 're smart enough to know that you want to vote someone into ... You can . You know what ? Both of you just hold on . Just hold on one second . I got a card . You got a card , and I got a life . Here 's what I 'm going to tell you . I know lots of different people who did n't go to college . Yeah , I do . Yes . Who were successful , who found their way in life . It 's not for everybody . Mark Zuckerberg , it worked out for him . It 's not for everybody . It is something that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you should go . It does n't necessarily mean you 're going to make more money or less because I know a lot of people that went to college , ca n't make jack . That 's true . Okay ? So we have to , we always have to tell people to take these kinds of things with a grain of salt and see what works for you . If it works for you , then have a great time . If it does n't , do n't be afraid of it . And do n't be afraid to look at a different kind of thing because quite honestly , I used to be able to fix my Volkswagen , I understood my car , okay , I was n't worried . If it went chug-a-lug , I knew what it meant , pour some stuff in it . Now if the thing goes chug-a-lug , I 'm scared because I know it 's going to be $1,000 . At least . At least , just to take it in . Can we have some people who can fix @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that ? You know , anyway , we 're having a good time . We know you 're having a good time . Y'all are having a good time . We 'll be right back . So , welcome back . Mom blogger Constance Hall is going viral right now for a post where she admits she curses in front of her kids who are eight and under . Oh , come to my house . She said she 'd rather they swear than be mean to other kids . What do you think of that ? Well , she also clarified she does n't direct the swearing at people . At the children , right . It 's more when something shocking happens , she 's just , like , holy , you know , like , let 's move on . So it 's not directed at people . That 's an important distinction . I grew up in a house where my mom cursed . It was n't , my grandparents . I had like a crazy Italian family . They were always cursing around , not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ playful , that was part of their vocabulary . And for years , I did n't curse at all . I did n't pick up on it . I grew up understanding that it was n't something that was used to express hate towards someone or to be vulgar but that it was just , it was just words . And sometimes that was the word that fit the moment best , and that 's the word my mom used . You think you 'll curse in front of your children , though ? I 'll probably find myself cursing if that 's the word that the ... Yeah , you will . She will . Yeah , that 'll just happen , and they 'll survive . She wo n't . But she will . I will . I will say , my grandmother used to curse in Spanish , man , and she would say and ( speaking foreign language ) , and it was , like , I was horrified all the time . So I do n't , I do n't curse in front of my @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ words . You did . And he repeated it at school . And he went to school . And then the teacher said , you know , you have to tell him not to do that . And she said , his Nana taught him . I said , are you sure he did n't learn that on " Sesame Street " ? Because it 's , I have a tendency to laugh . When a kid says a funny , a word , like a three-year-old , it 's hilarious , What curse words did you teach him ? Well , I did n't , he had heard me say , you know , you know what my favorite word is . It 's very different . I consciously taught all my grandkids . You did ? Yes I did , yes I did . Why did you do that ? There are certain words that are not bad . There are certain words that I do n't allow kids to say around me , like stupid . Like stupid , right . You know that because no matter @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it still gets you . Painful . But , and you ca n't say it with a smile . All the words I taught them can be said with a smile . You can say stupid with a smile . No , you ca n't say it , stupid , no , your face ... You can say that , that is so stupid . But that 's a smirk . That 's not a smile . That 's a smirk . It 's sarcastic , which laced with anger . It 's kind of , you have to try . You do . You do n't have to try with the words I taught . Sunny is blushing ( inaudible ) . How are you ? See , that 's just the way , so put it in your head . You know what I 'm talking about . You have to tell them do n't use it in school because when they use it at school , they get into trouble . You have to tell them that Nana is going to get in trouble if you use @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a restaurant . My grandson used it in a restaurant . And his mother was so mad . She screamed at me . The H-word ? Oh , no . Oh , a bigger word ? Or girl , please . Go big or go home . You know , go through the alphabet and figure out which one you think I taught her . But , you know , Jay-Z . Oh , Jay-Z . We love Jay-Z . The new album dropped yesterday , and he shot a video to go with the release of the new record , " 4:44 , " where he opened up about his problems in his marriage to Bey . Take a look . @!JAY-Z# I just ran into this place , and we built this big beautiful mansion of , of a relationship , you know what I mean , that was n't totally built on 100 percent truth . And then it started cracking , you know , and then things started happening that the public can see . You know what I 'm saying ? And then we had @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ okay , tear this down . And let 's start from the beginning . Wow . I was , I was really impressed with that . I like his new album . What was interesting for me is he says in the title track , " Look , I apologized , often womanized , took for my child to be born to see through a woman 's eyes . " And , and I find , we 've had that discussion that sometimes when men have little girls , they realize , oh my goodness , what I 'm doing as man is harming this woman that I love so much , I need to do things differently . And he also wrote , " Took for these natural twins to believe in miracles . Took me too long for this song . I do n't deserve you . " So I just thought it was almost like a ... I 'm not so sure about coming clean , though , all the time . You know , people are married , you know , you 're married for a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ affair , and you moved on . You know , and it 'll pass like a kidney stone . It 'll pass . Leave it alone . You do n't have to bring it up . You know , what are you doing when you bring that up ? What were you ... The house was built on a cracked foundation . You ca n't build a house on a cracked foundation . You need truth . But you 're purging , you 're purging yourself , purging the guilt , and then you 're giving this person something to use against you . from the sounds of this and her " Lemonade " that there were too ... She knew . Yeah , it was too deep , that they had to come clean . And it 's relatable because I do n't , I do n't like when people use , like , social media and everything to put forth a false image of happiness because what 's more relatable ... On social media ? I 'm critical of this . But I , the whole point is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ we can all relate . We 're more alike than we 're different . So , when people are honest about struggles , whether it 's parenthood or marriage or whatever , more people are , like , oh my gosh , I felt that , too . It 's nice when someone of this level , yeah ... And that vulnerability that he 's showing , I mean , he 's supposed to be this hard guy , and he 's like , I messed up . I got a lot of credit , I give him credit for even being able to recognize . It 's hard enough to recognize your own mistakes that you 've made privately , let alone to tell the world , this is my ownership of this period , and this is how he fixed it . So I do n't know . It made me , I do n't know a lot about him personally , but watching this made me want to get to know him more as an artist , as a human behind that art form . So , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ well , good for him . Do n't you , do n't you agree , Whoopi ? I do not . She and I were like ... Listen . Your business is your business , to me . And I , you know , it 's how I was raised . You do n't put all your business out . People are not all in your stuff . And I get that the new generation , they got to tell everything . And these are artists . They are . So these may be artistically told , okay . You will never actually know what 's gone on in their lives . That 's the truth . That 's what I can tell you . Yeah because they are private . They 're private people . You 're not going to know . And it 's very nice that it , that it seems like that , but let 's be realistic here , you know , the ... But maybe it 's what he said in the first line , when he said there was so much that people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on it , like , because their life is very public . So this is a fake song ? I do n't know if it 's a ... No . No . Well , what she 's saying , you do n't know , like the email . Well , no , you do n't . You do n't know , you do n't know people 's real lives . These are , these are real people who are artists , who are writing , you know , the music of their lives . It does n't mean it 's the reflection of their lives . Let 's be realistic with these kinds of things . I believe everything I hear . I know you do . I 'd like , I 'd like to believe it , too . But , you know , that does n't mean that he 's not a great guy , and she 's not a great girl . It just means , like , look , a lot of people do n't tell you everything . But it was a nice apology . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 're not telling you everything . We 'll be right back . Remember how we talked about the couch earlier ? Well , apparently people at home have been tweeting Joy with pictures of their couches . Let 's take a look at one . That 's the one . That 's not it . That 's Joy 's couch . Here 's , here 's one , yeah , there it is . If you want it . That looks very much like the Urban Outfitter . That is the couch . She says , " I have the couch if you want it . " It 's a different color , but it 's ... Is there another one ? " I have the couch if you want it , " says ( inaudible ) . Yeah , hers is purple . Well , I have to tell you , this is more royal . I like it . Purple is gorgeous . Yeah , that color actually ... I like this one . That color works better in my room . It does . And the color @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? My final offer is $200 , right , Sara ? You lowered the cost . My final offer is $200 . You know what ? If you want it , you should give her $1,000 . But this is somebody else . This is ( inaudible ) . Joy , stand with me , stand me . Marcus , we 'll give you $200 for that couch . $200 , but I ca n't , where is it ? I have to ship it ? Where is it ? Well , there might be shipping . We 're going to have to accept that . We 're going to have to take that blow . I do n't know , we 'll see . I have n't decided . We will keep , she 's going to keep it on her mind . And if other people have this couch ... Do n't send anymore . Please tweet us . Let us know because here 's what you 're going to have to do . You 're going to have to split the shipping costs . Oh , go @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 'm going to . She 's good . You split the shipping costs , and you make sure that it 's shipped first with a little video so Joy can take a look at it , so they can see , so she can see everything . Confirmation . And make sure that it 's actually going to happen . And then we have to confirm that you 're a real person , and she 's not sending money to somebody fake , who is running off . Okay ? This is going to happen . Wait , but Joy , you have a pickup truck . I do n't have a pickup truck . Joy has a pickup truck ? Does n't Vinny have a pickup truck ? Who 's Vinny ? Vinny ? Vinny is my yard sale friend . Okay , there 's nothing here . Just cool down , cool down . Actress Vanessa Williams ... Vanessa , she has a pickup truck . She got a pickup truck along with some amazing eyes because she got a wonderful , flattering comment about her looks over @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ strangest one came from actor , star Jean-Claude Van Damme , who told her , " Your eyes look like lasers . " That 's a nice one . Yeah . Is that a compliment ? I 'm not sure . It 's kind of a compliment . I 'm ( inaudible ) . She does have extraordinary eyes . But she was giving him that look because the only time people say , you 're looking at me , like , with lasers is when you do this . Yeah . And he 's a good-looking guy . We 'll be right back . Everybody else play . Hey , the blockbuster hit " The Fate of the Furious , " " The Fate of the Furious , " is available now on Blu-Ray/DVD . And members of our audience , you 're all getting a copy . So thank you for watching . Thank you guys for coming . Have a great day . Take a little time to enjoy " The Fast and the Furious . "

@@5000041 @5830-AM-EDT@6 @1JOHN-DICKERSON@2 : Welcome back to CBS THIS MORNING . Right now it 's time to show you some of this morning 's headlines from around the globe . Britain 's Guardian reports on a study that suggests eating junk food raises the risk of depression . A study in molecular psychiatrist looked at forty-one previous studies and researchers found that foods containing a lot of fat or sugar or that was processed led to inflammation . And then the study says that chronic inflammation can negatively affect brain chemistry . It can also impact neurotransmitters that are responsible for food -- for mood regulation . @1GAYLE-KING@2 : Say what you will , John , I 'm not giving up a cupcake . You can not make me do it . @1JOHN-DICKERSON@2 : Well -- @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : You 're the outlier , Gayle. @1JOHN-DICKERSON@2 : Yeah . @1GAYLE-KING@2 : Yes , I 'll be the outlier . There 's nothing depressing to me about that . @1JOHN-DICKERSON@2 : Yeah , that 's a baked good . @1GAYLE-KING@2 : Okay . @1JOHN-DICKERSON@2 : I think they 're talking about fast foods , you know -- @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : Deep fried . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you 've got one hand on the wheel . @1GAYLE-KING@2 : Okay , I like that too . The Wall Street Journal reports -- @1JOHN-DICKERSON@2 : We 're trying to find you an exit ramps . @1GAYLE-KING@2 : The Wall Street Journal reports shoppers love those rewards credit cards -- we sure do -- but retailers hate them . Ninety-two percent of all U.S. credit card purchase volume is currently charged on those rewards credit cards . Retailers are trying to end the Honor All Cards rule , which requires merchants that accept Visa or MasterCard branded cards to take all of them . Retailers pay a fee when customers swipe . Large merchants including Target , Home Depot , and Amazon are pushing for the right to reject some rewards credit cards which typically carry higher fees . Retailers paid more than forty-three billion dollars in Visa and MasterCard credit fees last year alone . @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : And USA Today says actor Will Smith celebrated his fiftieth birthday by bungee jumping out of a helicopter near the Grand Canyon . John Dickerson was desperate to go with him , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ John . @1GAYLE-KING@2 : Yeah . @1JOHN-DICKERSON@2 : Yeah . @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : Smith conquered his fear of heights live on a YouTube show that challenges people to face their biggest fears . He described it as going from pure terror to absolute bliss . The event helped raise money for Global Citizen 's education campaigns . It 's a good cause . @1GAYLE-KING@2 : CBS roo -- let 's try that again -- take two . @1JOHN-DICKERSON@2 : Reboot. @1GAYLE-KING@2 : Say it again ? @1JOHN-DICKERSON@2 : Reboot. @1GAYLE-KING@2 : CBS reboot of Murphy Brown is one of this fall 's most highly- anticipated shows and picks up twenty years after the finale . The hit comedy first aired back in 1988 , starring Candice Bergen as a tough talking TV journalist ; actress Faith Ford played the perky TV reporter named Corky . Murphy Brown was considered a groundbreaking show at the time winning eighteen Emmys over ten seasons . It portrayed a career-focused independent woman . The way the series tackle important issues like politics and family values made a lasting impact on our culture . @5Excerpt-from-Murphy-@7 @1GAYLE-KING@2 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ table . Good morning . @1CANDICE-BERGEN@2 @5Actress-and-Executiv@7 : Good morning . @1FAITH-FORD@2 @5Actress-Murphy-Brow@7 : Good morning . @1GAYLE-KING@2 : Welcome , welcome , welcome . I am so excited about this reboot because , of course , I remember Murphy Brown . But when you look at those clips , she seems very gentle compared to what we see now . She was ahead of her time , was n't she , Candice ? @1CANDICE-BERGEN@2 : Yeah . She was as it turns out . @1GAYLE-KING@2 : Yeah . @1CANDICE-BERGEN@2 : I do n't think we realize just quite how edgy was when she was created . Diane English wrote a woman that we had n't really seen on television yet , who was a woman totally self-confident , did n't care what other people thought , did n't -- no -- no politeness , no groveling. @1GAYLE-KING@2 : And twenty years later , she 's still that girl . @1CANDICE-BERGEN@2 : Yeah . @1GAYLE-KING@2 : Twenty years later , she 's still that girl . You have said -- @1CANDICE-BERGEN@2 : Yeah . A pain in the neck . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ But you have said if there was n't the election of Donald Trump , you might not have the show . What do you mean ? @1CANDICE-BERGEN@2 : Well , we -- we definitely would n't have had the show because really we -- we 've done the show and we 've done it as well , I think , as it had ever been done . And we did n't have a -- a motivation do it . We did n't really have the -- the meat or a story . And then when the election happened , I mean , if Hillary had won , we -- we would just be dancing in the streets . But I think in the current situation , it gives us a chance to make a response . @1GAYLE-KING@2 : But we should say , Faith , it 's not a Donald Trump bashing show either . That 's the beauty of it as well . @1FAITH-FORD@2 : No , it 's not . @1GAYLE-KING@2 : Yeah . @1FAITH-FORD@2 : It 's really not . It 's -- we -- we 're @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ really are a lot of issues going on that were going on then -- @1GAYLE-KING@2 : Mm-Hm. @1FAITH-FORD@2 : -- and they 're still going on . And we 're dealing with theme very week and predominantly what our show 's about . @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : And you do offer opinions on certain issues , though , and you see where you 're headed and your minds are . Are you concerned at all about abandoning viewers ? @1CANDICE-BERGEN@2 : Are you , Faith ? @1FAITH-FORD@2 : We never were before . @1CANDICE-BERGEN@2 : Because I do n't want to answer that . @1FAITH-FORD@2 : Well , I have to say for all those people in the middle of -- I mean , I speak for the world because I live in Louisiana when I 'm not in New York . I 've sort of always lived in the middle and I see myself that way . I understand both sides . I love Republicans as well as Democrats in -- in real life and so I believe there 's a way for our country to get along no matter what @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : Hm. @1GAYLE-KING@2 : Mm-Hm. @1FAITH-FORD@2 : You know , it really does . @1JOHN-DICKERSON@2 : Candice , what was it like -- was Murphy Brown living in your head during those twenty years that you were n't on the show ? What was it like to reconnect with that character ? @1CANDICE-BERGEN@2 : She -- she was n't actively , you know , ransacking the house of my head , but she 's never far away and she was by far the best character I 've ever gotten to play . I mean , she was a great , great character . She is a great character . @1FAITH-FORD@2 : She is. @1JOHN-DICKERSON@2 : Yeah . @1FAITH-FORD@2 : And Candice , I must say now in this , she 's so relaxed in this -- in this human being . And that 's the way you want somebody who 's been in this business , in the news business to be . You know , she 's coming back , but she 's not shrieking . @1GAYLE-KING@2 : Yes . @1FAITH-FORD@2 : She 's not shrill . @1GAYLE-KING@2 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and present and purposeful in her delivery . I mean , it 's just -- we talk about it -- when you 're not listening we talk about it all the time . @1GAYLE-KING@2 : Yeah . @1FAITH-FORD@2 : Is n't she just amazing ? @1GAYLE-KING@2 : And she 's still super smart . One of the great -- @1FAITH-FORD@2 : Mm-Hm. @1GAYLE-KING@2 : -- one of the interesting storylines because , you know , when you had Avery back in the day that was a scandal of sorts , a single woman having this baby . @1CANDICE-BERGEN@2 : Of sorts . @1GAYLE-KING@2 : Yeah , that was a -- that was a big scandal . Fast forward to 2018 , it 's like , oh , okay -- @1CANDICE-BERGEN@2 : Mm-Hm. @1GAYLE-KING@2 : -- we 're -- we 're throwing baby showers for single women . But now Avery , your son , is on a competing morning show . You guys have one morning show , Murphy in the Morning . Avery 's on a competing morning show called the Wolf Network -- @1CANDICE-BERGEN@2 : Mm-Hm. @1GAYLE-KING@2 : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Conservative -- a conservative network . @1GAYLE-KING@2 : A very conservative network , Wolf . And I think that 's going to be some of the most fun moments on the show . What it -- what was that like , that dynamic between the two of you ? @1CANDICE-BERGEN@2 : Oh , I love working with Jake . Jake McDorman is -- is , of course , dashingly handsome -- @1FAITH-FORD@2 : He 's a sweetheart . @1CANDICE-BERGEN@2 : -- and everybody on the set has a crush on him . But he 's also -- he just misses nothing and he has a great sense of humor . And so working with him is just a joy . @1JOHN-DICKERSON@2 : And , Faith , what was it like coming back for you to this show after such a long period away ? @1GAYLE-KING@2 : Is it like riding a bike ? @1FAITH-FORD@2 : Oh . Well , you know , we all sort of had to work on our pacing a little bit because it got very single camera like with comedy and it 's sort of like @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it 's -- what 's been relaxing about it is that we 're back to doing it the way it used to be , like , where it 's a play . But the differences is that I guess we -- we try to slow down a little bit , I 'm trying to slow down , because when I deliver Corky , I mean , I immediately go to another level . @1GAYLE-KING@2 : Yes . @1FAITH-FORD@2 : Whole another level . @1GAYLE-KING@2 : Yes . @1FAITH-FORD@2 : And so it 's sort of finding that cadence right -- just the right . But we actually flow with each other , the -- the core . And what was great for us is seeing the new characters , like Tyne Daly is fantastic . @1GAYLE-KING@2 : Oh , yeah , yeah , yeah , that 's right . @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : Yeah , she 's great . @1GAYLE-KING@2 : She plays Phyllis . @1FAITH-FORD@2 : And she just owns that . I ca n't even imagine that anybody else have that bar . I mean , she 's literally gone @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that she plays all the time . @1GAYLE-KING@2 : I ca n't imagine anybody in any of the roles . I 'm so glad you guys are back . And Corky , by the way , has hot flashes I think . @1FAITH-FORD@2 : Yes . @1GAYLE-KING@2 : That 's very relatable , Faith Ford . @1FAITH-FORD@2 : Corky has hot flashes . @1GAYLE-KING@2 : Yes . Very relatable. @1FAITH-FORD@2 : Special . @1GAYLE-KING@2 : Thank you , guys . @1FAITH-FORD@2 : Thank you . @1CANDICE-BERGEN@2 : Thank you . @1GAYLE-KING@2 : Candice Berg -- Candice Bergen -- her name has not changed -- Faith Ford , thank you guys . The new Murphy Brown premieres tomorrow night at nine-thirty/eight central right here on CBS . @1CANDICE-BERGEN@2 : The mothership. @1GAYLE-KING@2 : The mothership. @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : The mothership . Well , we 've got more for you because comedian Sebastian Maniscalco shows are a sellouts at huge arenas . But he 's hardly a household name . Yes . Right now he 's in our Toyota Green Room with why he says that 's just the way he likes it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @1GAYLE-KING@2 : He 's like , what ? I 'm a household name ? @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : But first , a check of your local weather . @5LOCAL-WEATHER-BREAK@6 @5ANNOUNCEMENTS@6

@@5000141 @5OC@7 Welcome back to " GMA , " with a very excited audience here in our studio . And we 've got two great guests who are joining us . And if there 's a first couple of country music , these two , they are it . They are both Grammy-winning artists and they 've also been volunteers with Habitat For Humanity for years . Trisha Yearwood and Garth Brooks are joining us from Indiana , where they 're helping build homes . Welcome , Trisha and welcome Garth . Hey , you guys . @1TRISHA-YEARWOOD-SIN@3 : Good morning . @1GARTH-BROOKS-SINGER@3 : How are you guys ? @1MICHAEL-STRAHAN-ABC@3 : @5OC@6 So you , you guys are out there , you 're helping build homes for Habitat For Humanity . Who , who 's better with the power tools ? ( Inaudible-technical ) . @1TRISHA-YEARWOOD-SIN@3 : ( Inaudible , technical ) . @1GEORGE-STEPHANOPOULO@3 : @5OC@6 We 've all known about President Carter 's work with Habitat For Humanity . How did you all get hooked up ? @1GARTH-BROOKS-SINGER@3 : We got hooked up through Karen Haycox , through the Teammates For Kids Foundation , I think the all-star , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ saw her work with those athletes down there , athletes we were fortunate enough to have on the Foundation at the time . And just the marriage got started . Then Trisha and I went down to swing a hammer . And just fell in love with it . @1TRISHA-YEARWOOD-SIN@3 : In New Orleans after Katrina . Yeah , about 10 years ago . So we 've been building with the Carters ever since . @1GEORGE-STEPHANOPOULO@3 : @5OC@6 That 's a lot of houses . That 's great work . @1MICHAEL-STRAHAN-ABC@3 : @5OC@6 Yeah , that 's awesome work on , on , from you two . And , Garth , you also made a big announcement that you 're doing something down in South Bend , Indiana , that has never been done before . What is that ? @1GARTH-BROOKS-SINGER@3 : Well , they , they opened up the house that Rockne built for concerts . We were lucky enough to be the inaugural concert there so we 're gon na try and rock the house that Rockne built , you know . So this is gon na be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ about it , you never try , you actually always do it , man . So we know it 's gon na be a great show for those fans out there , without a doubt . And you also , Garth , you also surprised your fans with a new triple live album . And , Trisha , you , you said , and Trisha said it 's the best album she 's ever heard or the best-sounding record you 've ever heard . Is that true , Trisha ? @1TRISHA-YEARWOOD-SIN@3 : Yeah , yeah , I have to say , I mean , a live album is , if it does its job well , makes you feel like you were at the show . And having been on this tour for the last three and a half years , I was there every night and saw that show . And I think if you did n't get a chance to see it live , the album really captures it . And I , I think that 's not easy to do . So to , to , we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ know , so to be able to capture that on a record is pretty great . And so I 'm , I 'm a fan . I 'll say it ' cause he wo n't say it . @1GEORGE-STEPHANOPOULO@3 : @5OC@6 Now , Trisha , you @1GARTH-BROOKS-SINGER@3 : That 's very sweet . My favorite thing about it is @1GEORGE-STEPHANOPOULO@3 : @5OC@6 Go ahead . @1GARTH-BROOKS-SINGER@3 : Go ahead . @1GEORGE-STEPHANOPOULO@3 : @5OC@6 Oh , we got a standoff here . So I 'll go ahead with a question right @1GARTH-BROOKS-SINGER@3 : Yeah , my favorite thing about it is , okay , you go ahead . @1GEORGE-STEPHANOPOULO@3 : @5OC@6 Trisha , I hear you 're going back to the studio after being on the road . @1TRISHA-YEARWOOD-SIN@3 : Yeah , I 'm in , I 'm in the studio right now working on new music and I am trying to do , kind of doing all the things that I did n't get done when I was on the tour , which is wonderful . So working on new music and still doing the cooking show and so it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @5OC@6 Any chance there might be another duet in your future , for the both of you ? @1TRISHA-YEARWOOD-SIN@3 : It 's possible . It 's always possible . We live together so it could happen . @1CECILIA-VEGA-ABC-NE@3 : @5OC@6 You heard it here first . @1MICHAEL-STRAHAN-ABC@3 : @5OC@6 Well , I got ta say , you guys continue to do the amazing work that you 're doing . You 're an inspiration to everybody . Congratulations on , on this , on Notre Dame performing out there as well , Garth . And , Trisha , we look forward to your new music , as well . You guys have a great day . Thank you so much . Really appreciate it . @1GARTH-BROOKS-SINGER@3 : @5Inaudible@6. @1TRISHA-YEARWOOD-SIN@3 : Thank you . @1MICHAEL-STRAHAN-ABC@3 : @5OC@6 And when we come back " Shark Tank 's " Kevin O'Leary , he 's here with his money secrets for kids and for parents . Plus , more country music fun . Paula goes one-on-one with Luke Bryan . He 's gon na share his secrets behind some of his biggest hits . We @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @

@@5000241 140000 FREDRICKA WHITFIELD CNN HOST From coast to coast demonstrators are demanding an end to the separation of migrant families brought on by the White House 's zero tolerance policy and we 're seeing impassioned pleas for empathy and action . @5BEGIN-VIDEO-CLIP@6 @1DIANE-GUERRERO-ACTO@3 : Even some 17 years later I still remember how it felt when I first cried out for my parents and they could n't answer . I am here as a voice for thousands of children without one . @1AMERICAN-FERRERA-AC@3 : I am here as a human being -- @5APPLAUSE@6 @1FERRERA@2 : -- with a beating heart who can feel pain , who understands compassion , and who can easily imagine what it must feel like to struggle the way families are struggling right now . @1SEN.--ELIZABETH-WARRE@3 : We need to rebuild our immigration system from top to bottom starting by replacing ICE with something that reflects our morality . @1UNIDENTIFIED-FEMALE@2 : My father came to America at age 17 with $400 in his pocket . Now he has his own business , a wife , my sister and I , a nice house in a beautiful neighborhood and is a proud American citizen . LIN-MANUEL @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the world safe and sound for you . We 'll come of age with our young nation . We 'll bleed and fight for you , we 'll make it right for you if we lay a strong enough foundation . @5END-VIDEO-CLIP@6 @1WHITFIELD@2 : A variety of voices and approaches there in the nation 's capital . CNN correspondent Rene Marsh is at the rally in Washington just across the street from the White House . They 're on the move now . So Rene , what 's happening ? @1RENE-MARSH-CNN-CORR@3 : Yes , I can tell you we left Lafayette Park and we are walking down Pennsylvania Avenue , and then we 've more or less stopped here at the Trump hotel . This has really become an extension of the administration , at least a symbol of it , I should say . So as the protesters are making their way past the hotel , you can hear it . You hear the boos. @5BOOS@6 @1MARSH@2 : So this is what we 're -- so , Fred , as they make their way past the hotel they are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are now headed towards the capital , which is straight ahead . So we 've got a little bit of ways to go . Before we get to the capital we 've got to go to the Department of Justice . But again , Fred , we are talking about thousands of people , they have shut down Pennsylvania Avenue as we walk with these protesters here holding their signs . Again , as you know , their big beef here is with these immigration policies that separate -- @5CHEERING@6 @1MARSH@2 : So you see those trucks there , Fred ? They 're honking their horns almost as in support -- in support of the protesters , and the protesters are reacting here . I can tell you there is a lot of enthusiasm , and the enthusiasm is , look , we are all bonding together to make sure that the administration knows that they are not in agreement with this policy . In speaking to a lot of these people I think some of them realize that perhaps these policies may not change , but they still want @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ get this message and they say they also want immigrants to get the message as well . We 're not seeing anyone drop off , the crowds are staying here and they are marching . No one is peeling off . They are sticking together . As we 've been mentioning all throughout the day , it is quite a warm day here in D.C. , quite a hot one , probably the warmest we have seen since this year began . But everyone I speak to out here says that is all secondary , Fred . They are thinking about the families . They are thinking about the children . They want these policies to stop . So now we are approaching the Department of Justice , and at that point they may stop again once they get to the Department of Justice as they finally make their way towards the capital . Obviously , Fred , what spurred all of this that we 're seeing here , the viral videos that we saw of children crying for their parents , parents separated from their kids as they crossed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ viral and it really tugged at the heart strings of many of the people that we 've been speaking to out here . So they call for any policy that the United States does to be done with compassion , and that 's the message I keep hearing over and over again , Fred . Back to you . @1WHITFIELD@2 : All right , Rene Marsh with people who are committed to their cause today . Now let 's check in with CNN 's Ryan Young . He is in Chicago where the crowd size had stretched something like a mile . What are you witnessing there ? 14:05:10 RYAN YOUNG , CNN CORRESPONDENT : Well , it 's stretched over a mile at this point , Fred . And what we wanted to do was get sort of a bird 's eye view . We got on top of an elevated platform on the L here . And you can look back this direction . Look , this has been this long in terms of the stretch of people for over 25 minutes now . During your last interview @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the things we noticed is sometimes it seems like the crowd is actually swelling and growing larger . Since about 10:00 a.m. this morning we have seen thousands and thousands of people sort of join this point . In fact we talked to some officers along the way . They believe this march here is in the tens of thousands of people . One thing that we 've noticed is the energy continues to build . And something that 's interesting about , maybe a fashion statement that people are making , when you look at the fact that the first lady wore that jacket , a lot of people have taken that jacket and used it as a part of their cause , but when you look down this street right here , this is over a mile long when you look back this way . And I 'm going to turn the camera across the elevated platform here , you can see the subway , these are people who have decided to stand and take a break , and then the line still continues . They actually @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for quite some time , but then they continued their march . And the energy just flows all the way through it . Like I told you before we were talking to people who have never protested before but they felt like this was something they wanted to stand for . And you see it 's almost like they have these block captains at the end of each block who are cheering everybody on . We walked back this direction so you can just see the shot of this crowd again because it is just so massive . Rene was talking about the fact it 's one of the hottest days of the year there in D.C. , well , it has been the hottest day so far here . We have seen a lot of people in terms of just handing out free water to make sure this crowd stays hydrated . There 's so much passion when it comes to the idea of uniting families . You can hear it in their voices as they walk the streets . People say this is about the identity of America @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ as you can see by the massive crowds it 's an amazing sight in terms of the people and how large and how it just keeps going and going . Fred ? @1WHITFIELD@2 : The passion is intense as is the heat there , Ryan . Heat index , what , 100 , feels like 100 , but not at all melting away , you know , the commitment from people there . Ryan young , thanks so much in Chicago . Let 's talk more about all of this that we 're seeing across the country today . Here with me right now is Matt Viser , CNN political analyst and deputy bureau chief for the " Boston Globe , " also Nathan Gonzalez , CNN political analyst and editor and publisher for " Inside Elections . " Good to see you both . Nathan , I wonder , is this demonstration mostly about the separation of families at the border , or has it also flowed into other things ? You 've got a Supreme Court justice now vacancy , you 've got people who are concerned about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ conglomeration of many things ? @1NATHAN-GONZALEZ-CNN@3 : I think Democrats in particular are looking for any and every opportunity to oppose the president , voice their disapproval . We saw this from the day after he was inaugurated with the women 's march . @1WHITFIELD@2 : Is this a Democratic issue ? @1GONZALEZ@2 : I think the Democrats are more likely to come to the protest and to voice and to be vocal and to be public about their disapproval with the president . And so I think this one is primarily about immigration , but I 'm sure that the same people that are out there disagree with the president on multiple issues . To me wondering about -- looking forward to November and the midterm elections , I know Republicans are concerned the Democratic turnout is going to be up . The question is can Republicans maintain or improve their turnout among their own voters ? @1WHITFIELD@2 : So Matt , is this apolitical , or is it that you are seeing more Democrats who are outspoken about this but not necessarily because Republicans are not feeling , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not out loud ? @1MATT-VISER-CNN-POLI@3 : Yes , I think probably most of the people we are seeing in the streets today are probably opponents of president trump and his policies . Of course , some Republicans would include themselves in that category , but it 's largely kind of a Democratic base that 's really fired up right now , largely over this issue , but as Nathan was saying , there is a lot on the table . And a lot has changed over this past week with the retirement of Anthony Kennedy on the Supreme Court that 's jacking up both sides really to a level that it 's hard to see any more mobilized and passionate . @1WHITFIELD@2 : Right . @1GONZALEZ@2 : I think the Republicans who do n't like the ripping apart of families and what 's going on at the border , they are probably more at home , but the question for me , again , looking at the midterms , do they punish what the president is doing , do they punish Republican incumbents and candidates , or do they reward @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of Congress in order to put a check with the president ? I think that 's where the midterm dynamic plays out . @1WHITFIELD@2 : So we 've heard a number of lawmakers today who were in attendance who used this as an opportunity to say it 's time to abolish ICE , Immigration Customs Enforcement . This was Senator Elizabeth Warren in Massachusetts earlier . Listen . ( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP ) 14:10:05 SEN . ELIZABETH WARREN , ( D ) MASSACHUSETTS : The president 's deeply immoral actions have made it obvious , we need to rebuild our immigration system from top to bottom starting by replacing ICE with something that reflects our morality and values . @5APPLAUSE@6 @1WARREN@2 : This moment is a moral crisis for our country . Dr. Martin Luther King said , there comes a time when silence is betrayal . We will not be silent . @5END-VIDEO-CLIP@6 @1WHITFIELD@2 : So the president via Twitter has been very critical about this saying , OK , ICE now then perhaps police later , but we have n't heard that jargon come from any of those @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , Matt , is it a mistake that perhaps , you know , this takes away from that singular issue that does seem to cross party lines , which is the splitting of families ? Now you bring in ICE , people are confused , what do you mean ? No border protection at all ? What 's going on here ? @1VISER@2 : It is really the mobilization of the left , of the progressive part of the Democratic Party . And it 's becoming really a litmus test for 2020 candidates . You saw Elizabeth Warren there staking out that turf . Kamala Harris , Cory Booker , others who may run are also doing that . But as you point out , there 's no legislative option for this to happen . There is not going to be an abolishment of ICE . So there is a lot of politics involved in it right now that does n't lead anywhere policy-wise probably . @1GONZALEZ@2 : And it might be the right politics for a 2020 Democratic nomination , but Democrats have to do well in the 2018 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a real race or do n't have a race at all when you have Democratic incumbents , Democratic candidates who Republicans say they want them to answer that question because they are saying you are for amnesty , you 're for open borders , and try to pound them with it this November . @1WHITFIELD@2 : And it seems problematic , too , because ICE is a portion , it 's under the umbrella of U.S. customs and border protection , but when some people here do away with ICE , are they also thinking , wait , does that mean do away with all kinds of border protection ? @1VISER@2 : Yes , I mean , it 's a lot of -- @1WHITFIELD@2 : It 's going to be confusing for the electorate . @1VISER@2 : But it takes a lot of explanation , and that old rule in politics when you are explaining you 're losing . In this case there is a lot to educate the public on what ICE does and what it represents and what abolishing it would mean . So it takes a couple @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , I think . @1WHITFIELD@2 : Nathan Gonzalez , Matt Viser , good to see you both . Thank you so much . Happy Fourth weekend . We 're almost there to the Fourth of July . Next , we 'll head west and get the latest on immigration protests in Texas , Oregon and California . We 'll be right back . @5COMMERCIAL-BREAK@6 14:17:00 WHITFIELD : All right , welcome back . We continue to cover the protests going on in cities across the country . Let 's go now to the southern border . CNN 's Dianne Gallagher is in McAllen , Texas . So Diane , what are you seeing there ? We 've seen hundreds , thousands of people converged in big cities like L.A. , Washington , New York , Chicago . What about there in McAllen where the processing center is ? @1DIANNE-GALLAGHER-CN@3 : Yes , Fred , those images coming out of here are kind of is what you 're seeing a lot of people use to dress up , the silver blankets . They 're talking about seeing the kids in cages @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ population in this particular area not quite the same as Chicago or New York , but population considering a couple hundred people showed up . And I want you to meet the two organizers , Fred . They are people who just graduated high school . This is Sara Vann and Oscar Lopez . Sara , why did you feel the need to organize this ? You have never done anything like this before . @1SARA-VANN-PROTEST-O@3 : No . We felt like this is our community down here , and it 's a predominantly immigrant community . And these are people that we 've known all our lives that are being affected by this . This is n't just the beginning of this with Trump 's zero- tolerance policy . We need to defund ISIS -- ICE , I 'm sorry . And this has been going on for way too long , and this needs to end now . @1GALLAGHER@2 : And Oscar , you guys , again , planned this entire rally . You had a couple hundred people here for two and a half hours . What @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of the United States ? @1OSCAR-LOPEZ-PROTEST@3 : I think that we need active legislative efforts to ensure that families are reunited expeditiously , and furthermore zero-tolerance needs to come to an end . It 's not practical or humane to criminally prosecute everyone , all the migrants that cross the border . These people are not just illegal immigrants . They are asylum seekers and they deserve to be treated with respect . @1GALLAGHER@2 : Thank you both so much . I appreciate it . And again , Fred , two recent high school graduates from here in the valley planned their protest . Not on par size-wise with what we saw in the different communities but passion-wise and education-wise because the people who live in McAllen have been dealing with not just the zero-tolerance policy but their battles with the treatment of migrants for years now . And we talked to a lot of people who had strong feelings about not just what should be done but the way that this particular administration is going about it . First and foremost they spoke about the treatment and humane treatment @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ instead of narrowing the scope for asylum that it could even be expanded to accept more individuals here into this community and into the rest of the country they said . @1WHITFIELD@2 : And they are closest to what is under the microscope . All right , Dianne Gallagher , thank you so much in McAllen , Texas . Let 's head now to Portland , Oregon , where people have converged there for the same reasons . Dan Simon , what are you hearing and seeing from people there ? 14:20:03 DAN SIMON , CNN CORRESPONDENT : Well , hi , Fred . Pretty large crowd has assembled here at this park in Oregon . Portland , Oregon . And we should also point out that you have this action here at this park , but just a couple miles away you have a 24/7 encampment surrounding the ICE headquarters there . It has gotten tense at times , there have been some arrests there in recent days . And here in Portland they kind of see themselves as a leader of this movement that we 're seeing all @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to Julia here . She has her one-year-old daughter . You can see her sign . It says , kids need gardens not guards . She is indicative in terms of the people that are here . Julia , tell me why you felt so compelled to act and come to the park today . @1UNIDENTIFIED-FEMALE@2 : I 'm a nursing mother , and I heard that a woman had her child ripped from her arms while she was nursing . And that 's really impacted even every time I 've nursed my daughter since then . And I have a little boy there is and I just try to get them out in nature as much as possible . And when I think about kids being locked up in old Wal-Marts it just makes me really sad . @1SIMON@2 : Are you somebody who has gone to protests before ? I know that Portland obviously is a city with a lot of civic activism in its blood . Are you somebody who comes out ? @1UNIDENTIFIED-FEMALE@2 : Not usually . I came to the women 's march also . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in the future and where the world is going , so I just want to support positive things as much as possible . @1SIMON@2 : Julia , thank you very much . And Fred , I think what she said there is key . We 've talked to other people like Julia , people who do n't normally come out in protest for various events . These are sort of first timers , if you will , people who felt so galvanized by this movement that is really sweeping the country , and obviously you see the results here with hundreds if not thousands of people congregating on this park here in Portland . Fred ? @1WHITFIELD@2 : Dan Simon in Portland , Oregon . Thank you so much . So protests are also getting under way south of there in Los Angeles . Joining me right now CNN law enforcement analyst Josh Campbell . So , Josh , the Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency , ICE , is under a lot of scrutiny , some Democratic lawmakers pushing for it to be abolished all together . So help explain @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ policies . JOSH CAMPBELL , FORMER FBI SUPERVISORY SPECIAL AGENT : Hi , Fred . Things are getting under way here in Los Angeles , and that seems to be one of the topics of interest here is not only the issue that we 've been seeing as far as what to do on the border as far as separating families from their parents and children and that aspect . But as you mentioned there is this other underlying issue , and that is what about the law enforcement agencies themselves ? And one thing that has been of hotly contested debate of late is , are these agencies doing what we expect them to do ? I have to say a lot of that comes from the top . A lot of this is being set by national policymakers within the Department of Justice . We know this zero- tolerance policy which we 've seen as far as how to enforce the laws , and that really is a directive that goes down to the agencies , the men and women on the ground executing . I can tell @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ taken away and officers at the border or in ICE that have this mission as far as deportation and investigation , they have to take those orders . So they 're caught up in the middle of this . It 's really going to be a national policy issue that lawmakers have to look at . That 's one law enforcement aspect that we 've been seeing with the number of these debates -- or these rallies , rather , you 've been seeing them around the country . Another issue I want to talk about , Fred , briefly is what goes into these events and actually putting them together and piecing them together . There 's a lot we see , there 's a lot we do n't see when it comes to event security . I want to bring in here Sergeant Hector Guzman form the Los Angeles Police Department . Sergeant Guzman . We were talking a little bit . I was talking to some of your colleagues earlier . And there is obviously a lot that we see . There 's a lot that we @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ here . Talk to us about your posture and you plan for these events . @1SGT.--HECTOR-GUZMAN-@3 : That is correct . We have sufficient resources on hand to handle any situation . We do n't expect or we do n't anticipate any issues . We have worked with these event organizers in the past , never had any issues . As you mentioned , there are a lot of resources that you see , some that you do n't see . But at the end of the day this is a family event . Our main goal is to facilitate a planned and permitted peaceful march . Our biggest concern is safely moving a large crowd from the beginning of this event to the end , and for that we have our department of transportation partners on hand who help us with the road closures and help us facilitate that safe crowd movement . @1CAMPBELL@2 : And that 's a key point when you talk about it being a family event . We were talking to some of your colleagues in different agencies and that seems to be the theme @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ folks have to remember that a lot of your role is actually ensuring the security of the people here that are exercising their First Amendment right , correct ? GUZMAN : That 's correct . And a big role and a big thing that we do to help us achieve that goal is work in advance with the event organizers . There is a lot of planning like you said that goes into -- in advance that goes into this event , and a lot of that is working hand in hand with the event organizers , communicating with them before , during , and after the event to make sure that we are on the same page as to what they expect from us and what they expect from -- and what we expect from them . 14:25:12 CAMPBELL : Perfect . And so far no issues here in L.A. ? @1GUZMAN@2 : No issue . We do n't anticipate any issues . Our biggest concern is safely moving such a large crowd . And it 's going to get warm today , so that seems to be sometimes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of that sort . We have our fire department on hand to help with any medical issues should they arise , and just remind people to stay hydrated . And we expect a nice , peaceful event today . @1CAMPBELL@2 : Perfect . Thanks for the work you do . Thanks for being here . And Fred , when things are getting under way in Los Angeles , we see the crowd that 's continuing to build behind us . We will start to see shortly some speeches . There 's going to be some music here , some of the elected officials . And then this crowd will then move to the ICE detention center which is their final rallying point . We will see that take place and continue to bring you those images here from Los Angeles . @1WHITFIELD@2 : All right , Josh Campbell , thanks so much in L.A. Protests in the president 's backyard following him on his getaway weekend to New Jersey . We 'll take you there live and hear what might be on the president 's mind as thousands march against @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Live pictures right now of demonstrations taking place across the country . Live pictures right now in Denver . And also protests taking place in New Jersey , not far from where the president is spending this near holiday weekend . People have gathered there . CNN White House Correspondent Boris Sanchez is nearby . So Boris , any chance that the president sees what 's taking place there not too far away from Bedminster where he is at his golf course ? @1BORIS-SANCHEZ-CNN-C@3 : We do n't know just yet , Fred . That protest was taking place in a library , some three miles or so away from his actual property in Bedminster . The president has not weighed in about these national protests . We 've reached out to the press team . They have not gotten back to us . However , he was this morning reflecting on immigration policy via Twitter . I want to put up some of the tweets now . The president bashing Democrats writing , quote , " The Democrats are making a strong push to abolish ICE , one @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ enforcement groups of men and women that I have ever seen . I 've watched ICE liberate towns from the grasp of MS-13 and clean out the toughest of situations . They are great . " He went on to say " To the great brave men and women of ICE , do to the worry or lose your spirit . You 're doing a fantastic job of keeping us safe by eradicating the worst criminal elements . So brave . The radical left Dems want you out . Next it will be all police . Zero chance . It will never happen . " Two quick points , Fred . First , it is not all Democrats calling for the abolition Immigration and Customs Enforcement . In fact Senator Kirsten Gillibrand of New York who first put this idea out there was criticized by some Democrats for saying that . Further , the president is making a quite a leap suggesting that Democrats will go -- certain Democrats will go from wanting to restructure ICE to wanting to abolish police overall . We do know the president is keeping @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ told reporters that he could potentially interview one or two possible candidates to replace Justice Anthony Kennedy on the Supreme Court . Kennedy of course announced his retirement earlier this week . The president also told reporters that he whittled down a list of some 25 names to just five possible candidates , though he did say that he was going to be interviewing six or seven , including two women . We should point out that the president was asked specifically about whether he would ask these candidates on their position on abortion , if he would bring up Roe versus Wade with them , and he said that he would not , saying , further , that he would not ask them about LGBT issues , either . The president did say that they are all qualified , very intelligent , very conservative candidates , though , Fred . @1WHITFIELD@2 : All right , Boris Sanchez , thanks so much . Still ahead , thousands protest the president 's zero tolerance policy at the border . We are back live with all the demonstrations across the country . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Increasing outrage as Americans put pressure on Congress and the president to repair immigration policies . Right now thousands of people are marching in Washington and across the country . Let 's get back to CNN correspondent Rene Marsh in the nation 's capital . Rene , last we saw you , you were walking with people who had started out at Lafayette Park right outside the White House , making their way to the U.S. capital . Has everyone reached that destination ? @1RENE-MARSH-CNN-CORR@3 : Yes , I want to just show you the scene here , Fred . I mean , I ca n't just state how really warm it is , so folks here now that they 've reached the destination , I think everyone is kind of just catching their breath , cooling off a little bit . We do know that some 45 people had to be treated at cooling stations and by paramedics here just because it is so incredibly hot . But the protesters started at Lafayette Park . We then moved down Pennsylvania Avenue making stops in front of the Trump Hotel @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of Justice and then we continued down Pennsylvania Avenue to make it here where , again , you can see people are just taking a time out and cooling off . But everyone so passionate , so much energy , so much enthusiasm from these protesters . They said , yes , it 's hot out here , but that 's all secondary . They wanted everyone to hear their message . They do not agree with the separations of -- separation of families . They do not agree with the detention of families . They do not agree with the detention of children . They certainly do n't agree with children being held in cages . This is the message they wanted to be very , very clear , not only to the administration , but also to members of Congress . 14:40:05 They also wanted to be crystal clear to the immigrant community . They say they are almost embarrassed by these policies and they wanted it to be clear that all Americans do not fall in line with the policies that have been rolled out by the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And just some more people , you may here some cheering , just some more people filling into the park here where it 's a lot cooler . And earlier today we heard from a lot of speakers , everyone from America Ferrara to Alicia Keys , they gave very passionate speeches . And now this is kind of where everyone has come to sit and just take a timeout . I 'm going to actually maybe speak to this lady here . I know you are about to take a photo , but we 're live on CNN . You were there marching today , your sign says " They are all our children . " And that is the theme that I 've heard from almost everyone is they feel like the compassion is missing . Tell me a little bit more about your message . @1UNIDENTIFIED-FEMALE@2 : Well , first of all , I think that everybody on earth whether or not we have -- he or she has a kid , has been a kid . So everybody ought to be able to feel some empathy @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ alone at night . @1MARSH@2 : I was just talking to Fredricka Whitfield our anchor here , and the 45 people had to be treated for the heat exhaustion . I mean , it 's warm out here , but everyone I speak to says that is secondary . It does n't matter . Forget about the heat . There is something -- @1UNIDENTIFIED-FEMALE@2 : It 's hotter in Texas . It 's hotter in Texas and there are babies in tent cities . And the other -- and people think that it does n't make sense to come out and demonstrate , but it seems to me very important to fight back against hopelessness , because I think that hopelessness is an actual tool of tyranny . And when we come out and say we 're thinking of the children even if you are n't , we are helping keep hope for them alive as well as for our democracy . @1MARSH@2 : And do you do this realizing that the policy may not change ? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE : The policy will change because I 'm not going to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ people , people filled with hope , can triumph under a small cabal of tyrants . @1MARSH@2 : Thank you so much . So Fred , I 'm going to send it back to you here . The march has pretty much come to its conclusion here , but folks are still here with their signs , still talking to each other , and each of them seem to be getting just a little bit of power from the other , knowing that they are all out here for the same reason , Fred . @1MARSH@2 : Folks trying to cool down in that 90 degree heat . It feels like 93 heat index in Washington , D.C. But all still very much fired up over all of this . Rene Marsh , thank you so much in the nation 's capital . With me right now to discuss the policy , the protests , Michael Eric Dyson , who is the author of the new book " What Truth Sounds Like . " Also joining me Cornell Brooks , the former president and CEO of the NAACP . Thanks @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . So Michael , you first , because America has seen this before , whether it 's the dehumanization of people or the power of protests . Which one in this case really might most determine the outcome ? @1MICHAEL-ERIC-DYSON-@3 : Well , I think that the common identification with people across ranges of ethnicity , of color , of sexuality , that woman eloquently talking about hopelessness as a tool of tyranny is absolutely right , this cabal of tyrants about which she spoke . I think that it 's incredibly important to understand that people are identifying with people because they understand we could be next . There is nobody who is safe or protected from the bigotry and from the resistance to humanity that this president has evinced , and that people in his administration , it has trickled down so that they have been emboldened , not only people in his administration but people across this country who have seen a resurgence of the hostility toward the other , and demonizing them and adding stigma to their head . So we 've seen this before in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ children , in internment camps , we 've seen this when immigration came in this country . So this is something that is a replay of a horrible movie . It was terrible the first time , the replay is even more atrocious . @1WHITFIELD@2 : How do you see this , Cornell , because talk about the power of the protest and how people have felt galvanized . First it was the women 's march which was incredibly impressive the day after inauguration . Then you had these young people who were joined by adults , this March for Our Lives , and now you have an incredible tapestry of people who are saying they 're marching for children who are their children as well . 14:45:01 CORNELL BROOKS , FORMER PRESIDENT AND CEO , NAACP : That 's right . That 's right . People all across this country understand that these children are not migrant children . They are , in fact , our children because we all are indeed human beings . And so when we think about the fact that we had Japanese-Americans who were @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , who have been criminalized under a policy called zero- tolerance in schools as opposed to zero-tolerance on the border . And so this moral outrage has brought Americans together because so often we have heard family values as a rallying cry of the right when , in fact , it 's family values as American values , as inclusive values , that is bringing people all together -- I should say together across the country . When you have -- and around the world . When you have 620 marchers around the world , all across the country , in all 50 states , Democrats , Republicans , old and young . Why ? Because we 've all been children . We all know what it 's like to have a child hold on to us out of fear , out of apprehension , with the need for comfort and security . And we have the government , our government , engaged in the practice of immigration deterrence by administrative kidnapping . That 's intolerable . @1WHITFIELD@2 : And so how is it that this administration can afford that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ now a day after we hear that this administration did n't even have a plan in place in which to reunify , but there was a plan to use this policy as a deterrent . @1DYSON@2 : Well , that 's the point . They have not had much forethought . They have not given much consideration to it . What they understand , though , they 're playing to the galleys of their most devoted followers who have been hoodwinked and bamboozled by a president who ostensibly is committed to the interest of working class white people and the resentment against the other . They are taking crumbs off of our table , these immigrants coming over here . He even tried this with African-American by saying , hey , we 're trying to keep them from taking your jobs , which is balderdash . The reality is that it 's not the -- it 's not the Puerto Ricans or the Mexicans or the Dominicans . It 's these right wing Republicans who have been vicious in their denial of the humanity of these people . We ca @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ bipartisan or at least partisan differences that are expressed politically . But what we can not tolerate in this country is the dehumanizing of the other , to think that the person who stands across from me is not a human being . And furthermore , as Brother Brooks said , when you talk about children , the most vulnerable people on this earth , what families do you value ? They value heterosexual white male dominated families , but not families that are an aggregate , a picture of this country in its profound diversity . So this presidency , this administration is not invested in a serious consideration of human rights or even the civil rights of those that have been denied . It 's about the perpetuation of its own legacy of intolerance which translates to votes at the polls . WHITFIELD : So Cornell , largely people can understand the outrage and people being outspoken about the outrage universally , children being separated from their families . But then how does anyone explain the silence of those who do not seem to be outwardly enraged at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not just for 20 days , but for many days more . @1BROOKS@2 : I think there 's a certain partisan blindness in the country in a sense that you have people who want to take this issue , which is a profoundly moral issue , and turn it into a D or R issue only , conservative or liberal issue only , when , in fact , it 's more profound than that . And so when you have an administration that not only gave no thought as to how to reconnect the parents and children , but actually had a pilot program for the separation of the children . So we have malevolence and incompetence , bad intent and bad execution coming together . And so anyone who is not outraged by this has to be blinded by a certain partisan commitment to this White House , because the fact of the matter is there 's no way for us to explain this morally or historically as anything other than an atrocity . It is , in fact , that . And where you have evangelicals who are @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't care about the baby in the womb without caring about the babies walking down the street , this is a problem . And it 's much bigger than these stories . @1DYSON@2 : It 's complicity on the part of those people who remain silent . @1WHITFIELD@2 : Cornell Brooks , Michael Eric Dyson , it 's good to see you both . Thank you so much . Appreciate it . @1DYSON@2 : Thank you . @1WHITFIELD@2 : We will be right back . @5COMMERCIAL-BREAK@6 14:54:11 CHRISSY TEIGEN , MODEL : -- is big , beautiful and diverse , like our great city of Los Angeles . It 's not small . It 's not petty . And not exclusive , like Mar-a-Lago , ultra-exclusive . Tremendous . Tremendous exclusivity . Can you imagine this city without the contributions of immigrants , how bland , how flavorless L.A. would be , how boring ? Too many people demonize immigrants like they 're stealing something from the people born here . Immigrants do n't come here -- @1WHITFIELD@2 : All right , sorry about that , but you see many @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of separating children and families . Chrissy Teigen there with her newborn there in Los Angeles . So many people have come out across the country from coast to coast speaking out on this day of protest . 14:55:11 Thanks so much for being with me today from Washington , D.C. I 'm Fredricka Whitfield . Much more of the Newsroom continues with Ana Cabrera in New York after this . ( COMMERCIAL BREAK )

@@5000341 @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 We are back now , seven-time Grammy Award-winning artist , the soulful Toni Braxton . She is starring in and executive producing a new movie , " Faith Under Fire . " Always great to be in your presence . @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : Thank you . It 's good to see you . You look wonderful . @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 Good to see you . Thank you , thank you . This movie is right on time , especially with what happened with the Kentucky school shooting . And this is based , your movie is based on a true story . 2013 , Georgia , elementary school , a heroic woman got a gunman to surrender . And it 's played , Antoinette Tuff @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : Antoinette Tuff . @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 is the real woman and she was at the premiere . What was it like playing her ? @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : You know , when I think of her role and what she did , I mean this gunman is there . He 's about to kill over 800 kids and faculty members and this woman , through her faith , just talked this man @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ these families were reunited with their kids and they got to tuck them in . You know what I mean ? All the stories are n't happy . Like , the Kentucky situation was not a happy ending . @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 I know , I know . @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : But this woman gave us a happy ending . @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 She did . Do you all wan na see a little bit of this ? Okay . Here it is . " Faith Under Fire . " @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : Well , as long as I talk to God , that 's how long I got to listen . So if I 'm talking to God 15 minutes , then that 's how long I have to sit in total silence and just listen . Fifteen minutes is a long time when you really try to do it , but I just close my eyes and black out everything . Like @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 What was the reaction to your family and everybody who 's seen it so far ? @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : They were shocked . They were shocked @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ pounds for it . I lost it , but I gained five back over the holiday . But @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 But who 's counting ? @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : Yeah , exactly . I , I , I , what do you call it , when you @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 Transform , yeah . @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : Spray tan . @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 Oh , the spray tan . @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : I spray tanned to make my skin a little darker . @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 Right . @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : The aesthetics I did to prepare for the role . I watched everything Antoinette Tuff . I watched her imaging , I watched her interviews with Cooper , Mr. Anderson Cooper . Everything she did , the 911 call . She was completely calm . Like , how is she so calm ? And I think what she was able to do , she was like a negotiator , I remember them saying . I was actually watching it as it was unfolding . @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 Yeah . @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : And I was in Canada . And I 'm on the treadmill @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Atlanta ? So when I got the script I 'm like , I remember this story . I mean , she was on the cover of " Time " magazine . President Obama acknowledged her . And it 's just great to have someone give their lives for someone else . ' Cause I 'm a mother and you think you send your kids off to school , you know . @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 That they 're safe , yeah . @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : They 're safe . You think you 'll see them when you pick them up at 3:00 o'clock , you know , but this woman was fantastic . @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 You 're a mother , you 're , a musical family that you come from . Are they showing any interest in doing that ? @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : No. @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 Your boys ? No ? @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : No. @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 No , no , no ? @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : No , not at all . @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 Not so much . @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : They do n't even really even like my voice . @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ not like Toni Braxton 's voice ? @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : No . I mean , like Mom 's just , okay , she can sing as Mom , but , Mom , can we go to the Drake concert ? Exactly . @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 But we love this new music with your , your collaboration with Birdman , your collaboration @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : Yes , it was great . @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 with , with Birdman. @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : She said my collaboration with Birdman. @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 I know . @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : I wave , I got ta do my wave . @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 Is there anything you want to share with us , Toni ? Is there any @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : Well , you know , I am not married , unlike my big mouth sister Tamar has been saying everywhere . I 'm not , definitely not married yet . @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 Okay . But there is a connection there ? @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : Well , we 're working together . @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 Okay , working together . You read between the lines . So what are you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ cause you 've been on Broadway and you got the movie , you 've got music . What 's next for Toni Braxton ? @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : You know , I do n't know . Music is always gon na be in my heart . I mean , acting is not organic for me , like singing is . So I had to study hard for that role , but music is what I do in my sleep . So always music forever . @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 Did , did you hear Michael Strahan trying to sing ? @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : I heard that . @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 Yeah , that , yeah . @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : Yeah . @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 You 're safe , your job is safe . @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : I think I 'm okay . @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 You are a blessing , Toni Braxton . Wishing you all the best . And whenever you do wan na have something to say , you know you can come back . Oh , Michael 's coming back . What ? What ? @1MICHAEL-STRAHAN-ABC@3 : @5OC Hey all I 'm gon@7 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 " Faith Under Fire " premieres Saturday on Lifetime . @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : Yes . @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : We 'll be right back , everybody . @1GINGER-ZEE-ABC-NEWS@3 : @5VO@6 " Good Morning America " is brought to you by @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5VO@6 It 's not only thankful Thursday , it 's throwback Thursday . That 's Toni Braxton . Look at her . Yes , yes . What was , what was , what was that from ? What was that from ? @1MICHAEL-STRAHAN-ABC@3 : @5OC@6 I got you . @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 What was that from ? What was that from ? @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : High school . @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 High school . @1MICHAEL-STRAHAN-ABC@3 : @5OC@6 High school ? @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : I did n't peak in high school . @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5VO@6 Hey , as the countdown to the Super Bowl , we 've got an exclusive look at a new docuseries that is so great debuting on Facebook , watch today . It 's called " Tom Versus Time " and you can see it at 10:00 PM Eastern time . @1MICHAEL-STRAHAN-ABC@3 : @5VO@6 And also , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Muppet Babies . " And we want to exclusively reveal the new Muppet character . There it is Summer Penguin . And you can see the premiere in March on Disney Junior . So make sure you check that out as well . @1ROBIN-ROBERTS-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 Oh , you 're still working it . I like it . @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : I 'm still twirling . @1MICHAEL-STRAHAN-ABC@3 : @5OC@6 Yeah , I 'm trying to get on the concert tour with Toni , but it does n't seem to be working . @1TONI-BRAXTON-FAITH@3 : I 'm twirling , guys . @1GEORGE-STEPHANOPOULO@3 : @5OC@6 Have a great day .

@@5000441 media . We 've covered a great deal of territory . I just left , as you know , Prime Minister Abe of Japan , we 're starting trade talks with Japan . They were not willing for years to talk trade , and now they 're willing to talk trade and I 'm sure we 'll make a very good deal . Just concluded , as you know , two days ago , signed a deal with South Korea , trade deal , tremendous deal with South Korea . Means a lot of business for our farmers . We 're opening up for farmers . We 're opening up for a lot of different groups . We 're going to be able to sell much more than double the number of automobiles that we were allowed under a deal that was totally defective that was there before . And so we 're very happy with that . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : That deal is actually concluded . We 're very well along the way with Mexico , the relationship is very good , and with Canada , we 'll see what happens . They 're charging us 300% tariffs on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ca n't have that . With China , as you know , we put out an announcement today , they would like to see me lose an election because they 've never been challenged like this , but I want to open up China to our farmers and to our industrialists and our companies , and China is not open , but we 're open to them . They charge us 25 , 35 , 55% for things and we charge them nothing in terms of coming into the country . Cars , they 're at 25% and we 're at 2% and 2.5% and do n't even collect it , but we collect it now . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : So , we 're doing very well in our situation with China , on trade . I have a great relationship with the President of China , President Xi . But it 's got to be a two-way street . 25 years or longer , it was not . And trillions and trillions of dollars was taken out of the United States for the benefit of China . We just ca @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . So , we 're at $250 billion now at 25% interest and a lot of money is coming into our coffers . And it 's had no impact on our , absolutely , by the way , no impact on our economy , which I said it would n't . In fact , steel is like the hottest industry there is. @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : If you look at what happened with steel , we 're charging a 25% tariff for the dumpers . They dump massive amounts of steel , they want to put the steel companies out of business . And after they 're out of business , they 'll come in and charge five times more than you ever thought possible . And we need steel and we need aluminum and those industries are doing well , but steel is incredible . US Steel is opening up a minimum of eight plants . Nucor is opening up plants , and these are big plants . $750 million , and a billion plant , in some cases . So , what 's happening with the steel industry is very @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : If you look at the miners and coal , if you look at energy , LNG , Japan just gave us some numbers that are incredible . They 're doubling the amount that they 're going to be buying for Japan . They 're taking the LNG and they 're doubling it up . I said , you have to do me a favor , we do n't want these big deficits . You 're going to have to buy more . They 're buying massive amounts of equipment and military equipment and other countries are doing the same thing . Because we have trade imbalances with almost everybody . It 's a rare exception that we do n't . So , we are doing great as a country . Unfortunately , they just raised interest rates a little bit , because we are doing so well . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I 'm not happy about that , because I know it 's going to be a question . I am not happy about that . I 'd rather pay down debt or do other things , create more @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they seem to like raising interest rates . We can do other things with the money . And , but they raised them , and they 're raising them because we 're doing so well . We 're doing much better than I had projected in terms of when I was campaigning , I said we were going to do this and we 're doing much better than , than anybody ever thought possible . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : And I will say , if others got in , it would have been just the opposite , because they were going to put restrictions on , they were going to put regulations on , they were going to choke the economy as it was already choking , but it would have been worse , and they were going to raise your taxes , that 's what they want to do now , if they ever got control . Which I do n't think they 'll have control for a long time . So , with that being said , we 'll take some questions and , yes , please , John , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : Mr. President , thank you very much . Of course , what you 're looking forward to tomorrow is the hearings with Judge Kavanaugh before the Judiciary Committee . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Yes , yes . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : In 1991 , when Joe Biden passed a law into the Bush 41 White House , the allegations that Anita Hill had raised against Clarence Thomas , the Bush White House asked the FBI to look into it as part of Judge Thomas ' background investigation . Not a criminal investigation , but the background investigation . When these allegations were raised , why did n't this White House do the same thing , and with all of the allegations that are coming out now about Judge Kavanaugh , was there an opportunity missed here to have investigators look into this and get some sort of clarity one way or the other ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Well , the FBI told us , they 've investigated Judge Kavanaugh six times , five times , many times over the years . They know him very well . But here there was nothing to investigate @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ know the location , they did n't know the time , they did n't know the year . They did n't know anything . And it 's like , where do you go ? Also , it 's not for the FBI , if you look at what Joe Biden said , he said , they do n't do this , and he said it very clearly , so I think when you really look at it all , it 's not going to change any of the Democrats ' minds . They 're obstructionists. @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : They 're actually con artists , because they know how quality this man is , and they 've destroyed a man 's reputation and they want to destroy it even more . And I think people are going to see that in the midterms . What they 've done to this family , what they 've done to these children , these beautiful children of his , and what they 've done to his wife , and they know it 's a big , fat con job . And they go into a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ what they pulled off on you and on the public . They laugh like hell . So , it would n't have mattered if the FBI came back with the cleanest score , and you understand that very well , John . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : If they would have come back with the most perfect , we found everything and he 's perfectly innocent of everything , it would n't have made a difference . You would n't have gotten one vote . Now , we will get votes from the Democrats if we win . You 'll have three , four or five Democrats giving us votes , because they 're in states that I won by 30 and 40 points and they 're going to give us votes . But other than that , you probably wo n't get any , John . Yes , go ahead . Please . @1JONATHAN-KARL-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 Mr. President , there are now three women accusing Judge Kavanaugh of sexual misconduct . Are you saying that all three of those women are liars ? Is there anything that could be said tomorrow that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ all that ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I wo n't get into that game . I only tell you this . This is one of the highest quality people that I 've ever met . And everybody that knows him says the same thing . And these are all false , to me , these are false accusations in certain cases and certain cases , even the media agrees with that . I can only say that what they 've done to this man is incredible . You know , it 's very interesting , I pick a lot of judges , I have judges I will be picking by the end of a fairly short period of time , because President Obama was n't big on picking judges . When I got there , I said , how is this possible ? I have 145 , including court of appeals judges . And they just did n't do it , you know why ? They got tired , they got complacent . Something happened . I have 145 judges . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Everybody wants to be a federal judge . Not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ court of appeals , I 'm talking about district court . I do n't think they 're going to want to so much , I 'll be calling people and we 'll have people calling people that do this , and people are going to be scared , because we could say it about you , 35 years ago , you met , and you might know , you might not know what 's going on . What is going on ? Why did they wait so long ? Why did Senator Feinstein wait until the hearings were over and make this case ? Why did n't she bring it right at the beginning , when you ask about , as an example , the FBI , why did n't they bring this right at the beginning ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : During the hearing ? You would have had all the time in the world for the FBI , it would have been fine . Now , the FBI , as you know , did investigate this time , as they have five or six other times , and they did @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ con job . And I would love to be in the room with the Democrats , close the door , you guys are all away outside waiting and Schumer and his buddies are all in there laughing , how they fooled you all . Let 's just stop them , a big , fat con . Yeah , go ahead . @1JONATHAN-KARL-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 But Mr. President , if I could follow up . You have daughters . Can you understand why a victim of sexual assault would not report it at the time ? Do n't you understand ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : By the way , I only say this . 36 years , no charge , no nothing . @1JONATHAN-KARL-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 But that happens often , I mean ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : People are going to have to make a decision . 36 years , there 's no charge . All of a sudden , the hearings are over , and the rumors start coming out and then you have this other con artist , Avenatti , come out with another beauty today . Only I say that you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ very capable people , they 're very good people , I know many of them , they 're friends of mine . These are very talented , very good people , and they 're going to vote . They 're going to have to believe what they believe . I can , when I look at what 's happened to the reputation of a great gentleman , a great intellect , a brilliant man , somebody who has a chance to be one of our great Supreme Court justices in history , intellectually , I think it 's a shame . Yes , please . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : @5Inaudible@6 Mr. President , yesterday at the speech , at the UN , you spoke about how Venezuela 's problem was because of Cuba and the Castros , how they went in there and they brought socialism and communism to Venezuela and now to Nicaragua , as well . Mr. President , are you going to be more proactive now against Cuba , as well ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I 've been very proactive against Cuba . I do n't like what 's happening @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ them a pass , and I did n't like it . Neither do Cuban people , based in Miami and based in our country that came from Cuba and suffered in Cuba . I do n't like what he did . I 've ended much of it , most of it . I do n't like what 's happening in Cuba and I certainly do n't like what 's happening in Venezuela . Yes , please . Go ahead . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : Mr. President , just to finish really fast , you said also that you had a call to action to ask the leaders around the world to also end socialism . Would you like to be recognized as ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Well , I would n't say that socialism has been working really well around the world . You can look at Venezuela , your number one , I guess the one that 's most obvious , but you take a look around the world , socialism is not exactly riding high . Please . Go ahead . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : Thank you very much . If you do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ or one of our female colleagues could go after me , that would be great . Mr. President , just to follow up on these allegations against ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : What does he mean by that ? Explain ? What is , what does that mean ? @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : I think it would be great if a female reporter ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : What does it mean ? No , what does it mean ? @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : It would be great if a female reporter would ask you a question about this issue . So if you do n't mind ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I would n't mind it at all . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : All right , well , let me ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Would n't make any difference to me . Go ahead . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : If I could follow up on Jon and Jon 's question , why is it , Mr. President , that you always seem to side with the accused and not the accuser ? You have three women here who are all making allegations , who are all asking that their stories be heard , and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of Roy Moore , if you look at the case of one of your staffers , you seem to , time and again , side with the accused and not the accuser . Is that because of the many allegations that you 've had made against you over the years ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Well , first of all , I was n't happy with Roy Moore , let 's get that straight , but Roy Moore was a ... @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : You stood by him . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : ... Republican candidate , and I would have rather had a Republican candidate win . I was very happy with Luther Strange , who was a terrific man from Alabama , but Luther Strange had a lot of things going against him . As far as women , whether it 's a man or a woman , these are , you know , it can happen the other way , allegations can go the other way , also . You understand that . And whether it was a man or a woman , years ago , years ago , in fact , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ because nobody knows what the time is . That 's a long time . And I could pick as an example , hopefully I wo n't have to do it as a replacement , because hopefully this is going to go very well on Thursday , it 's going to go very well on Monday or Saturday or Sunday or whenever they vote , but I could pick a woman and she could have charges made from many years ago also . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : But do n't you understand , sir , that many of these ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : And I would look at the character , no , what I have to do ... @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : ... @5Inaudible@6 are reluctant to come forward . You 've raised doubts about these accusers many times ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I do n't think people are reluctant to come forward . They 're going to have a chance to speak at a - they have a major chance ... @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : @5Inaudible@6 @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Excuse me . They have a major chance to speak . And it will be tomorrow , I assume @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , not me , the Republican senators have delayed this for weeks now . They 're giving the women a major chance to speak . Now it 's possible I 'll hear that and I 'll say , hey , I 'm changing my mind . That is possible . We want to give them a chance to speak . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Do you think - all three should have a chance to speak ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Well , whoever is given a chance , we 've delayed it a long time . But they 're going to have a big shot at making their case , and , you know what , I can be persuaded , also , okay ? Yes , please , go ahead . Go ahead . I 'd like to go , yes , go ahead , please . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : Thank you , Mr. President . A couple of questions for you to follow up on some answers that I did n't quite hear from you , if you would allow me a couple of questions . First of all , do you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ liars ? Yes or no ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Have they been what ? @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : Are they liars ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I ca n't tell you . I have to watch tomorrow , I have to read , I just heard about one a little while ago . I can tell you , her lawyer is a low life , okay ? So , I ca n't tell you whether or not they 're liars until I hear them . I do n't know what happened today , because I 've been very busy with Japan , with South Korea , with China , and about seven other countries , as you know , and I chaired the Security Council . So , I do n't know about today 's person that came forward . I do know about the lawyer , and you do n't get much worse , bad reputation , to take a look at his past . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : So , as far as the other women are concerned , I 'm going to see what happens tomorrow . I 'm going to be watching , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ going to see what 's said . It 's possible that they will be convincing . Now , with all of that being said , Judge Brett Kavanaugh has been , for many years , one of the most respected people in Washington . He 's been on , I guess you 'd call it the second highest court . And every single person who knows him , a lot of people know him well . And those people do n't believe what 's going on . I can always be convinced . I have to hear it . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : It sounds like what you 're saying is , there is a situation , there is a scenario under which you would withdraw Brett Kavanaugh 's nomination . Is that correct ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : If I thought he was guilty of something like this , yeah , sure . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : And you will wait until tomorrow to make up your mind ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I want to watch . I want to see . I hope I can watch . I 'm meeting with a lot of countries @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ able to watch . And I 'll also rely on some very fair and talented Republican senators who , look , if we brought George Washington here and we said , we have George Washington , the Democrats would vote against him , just so you understand . And he may have had a bad past , who knows , you know . He may have had some , I think , accusations made . Did n't he have a couple of things in his past ? George Washington would be voted against 100% by Schumer and the con artists . I mean , 100% , 100% . So , it really does n't matter from their standpoint . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : That 's why when Jon asked about the FBI , if the FBI did the most thorough investigation in the history of the FBI and they found him to be 100% perfect , he would lose every single vote . Now , if the Republicans win tomorrow , I think you 're going to get some votes . From the Democrats , you know why ? Because we all @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you 'll probably get some votes . Okay , let 's go . One more question . Yes . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : Just to follow up on ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : She stands up , I 'd like to ask about three questions , it 's not really fair to everyone else . Should I let her ask another question ? @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : Just to follow up on ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Go ahead . See ? @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : To follow up on a question that a colleague asked , as well , about the benefit of the doubt that you have given to people like Roy Moore , to Roger Ailes , to Brett Kavanaugh , they 're all men . Why is that ? And has there ever been ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : It 's not a benefit of the doubt . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : ... an instance when you 've given the benefit of the doubt to a woman ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I 've known them , Hailey , I 've known them for a long time . And , a lot of these people . A lot of people . And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ disappointed with some , others , you know , there are charges that are pretty weak . But I 've known people for a long time . I never saw them do anything wrong . I never saw them do anything wrong . And there are some that probably , I agree , I can tell you , there are some that I 've been watching for a long time , and in a couple of cases , they were n't Republicans , in a lot of cases , they were not , they were exactly the opposite , but I 've been watching them for a long time , and I knew for a long time these were not good people , and they were never brought up . Okay . Yes , ma'am , go ahead . Thank you very much , by the way . Thank you . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : Thank you very much , Mr. President . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Thank you . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : When the allegations first surfaced , you initially said how important it was for Dr. Ford to testify , and that you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . I wish it could have gone quicker . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : Well , you also said that if what she said were as bad as she claims , surely her or her parents would have reported it . And just today you said you would ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Well , there is a truth . I mean , there is a chance that her parents could have reported it 36 years ago . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : So my question is ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : It does n't mean they had to report it , because in some instances , people keep it quiet , it 's a very tough situation for a woman , there 's no question about it . And in some cases , they do report it . Frankly , had they reported it , it would have been pretty amazing , would n't it ? But I guess they did n't , and that 's okay . I 'm not saying they had to report it . Because it 's a very personal thing , it 's a very big problem . There 's no question about it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ before ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I 'd like to hear her story , yeah . Well , we 're giving her time ... @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : @5Inaudible@6 you already made up your mind . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : They would have given her time last week . This is the United States Senate . This is the most important position that a President can give out , I think we can say , by far . I 've actually heard it 's the most important decision a President can make . I disagree with that . War and peace , I always say , war and peace , and after that , Supreme Court justice , right ? I look forward to hearing from her . We could have heard from her last week . We could have heard from her for a long time . It will be interesting to hear what she has to say , okay ? @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : Let me follow up on Jim 's question , Mr. President , let me follow up on Jim 's question that I do n't think we got an answer to . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : How have your personal experiences being accused by more than a dozen women ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I 've been accused . False accusations . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : Right . How have ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Excuse me , I 've been accused . And I was accused by , I believe it was four women , you can check with Sean Hannity , you can check with Fox , because they covered it very strongly . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : And how have those ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Excuse me . Excuse me . I was accused by four or five women that got paid a lot of money to make up stories about me . We caught them and the mainstream media refused to put it on television . They refused to write about it . There were four women and maybe more , I think the number is four or five , but one had a mortgage paid off her house , $52,000 . Another one had other things happen . And the one that reported it , I believe , was offered $750,000 to say bad things about me and she @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ incredible . She reported it instead of taking the money . So , I 've had numerous accusations about me. @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : Right . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I mean , they made false statements about me , knowing they were false . I never met them . I never met these people . And what did they do , what did they do ? They took money in order to say bad things . I 've had stories written in " The New York Times , " front page , about four women , the whole top center front page of " The New York Times . " I think it was four big pictures , I said , wow , that 's a big thing , what 's that ? These were women that were quoted saying bad things about me . Not the worst things about me , but bad things . And I said , gee , that 's too bad . I knew them a long time ago , 15 years ago , 20 years ago . I said , that 's too bad . I 'm @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , I see them on television , nothing to do with me , the next day , or a day later , they were incensed . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : They said , Donald Trump is a nice guy , we never said this . " The New York Times " did false reporting . They 're fake news . And , you know what ? " The New York Times " would not report that their story was fake . These women said great things , not only did they not say the bad stuff , they said great things about me . Front page . And those women , they 're incredible women , they went on television and they did n't want to , and I did n't ask them , and they said " The New York Times " made it up . They gave false quotes . And they went on a lot of shows , they were really incensed and they could n't believe it . That 's why people know that a lot of the news is fake , and a lot of the people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ wonderful , okay ? @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : If I could just actually ask my question , Mr. Trump . You did n't let me ask my question . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : You 've been asking a question for ten minutes . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : No , you interrupted my question . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Please sit down . Please , go ahead . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : I 'm asking you , how did those impact your opinions on the allegations against ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Well , it does impact my opinion , you know why ? Because I 've had a lot of false charges made against me . I 'm a very famous person , unfortunately . I 've been a famous person for a long time . But I 've had a lot of false charges made against me . Really false charges . I know friends that have had false charges . People want fame , they want money , they want whatever . So , when I see it , I view it differently than somebody at home sitting at home watching television where they say , oh , Judge Kavanaugh @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ times . I 've had many false charges . I had a woman sitting in an airplane and I attacked her while people were coming onto the plane , and I have a number one bestseller out ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I mean , it was a total phony story . There are many of them . So , when you say , does it affect me in terms of my thinking in respect to Judge Kavanaugh , absolutely , because I 've had it many times , and if the news would have reported these four people , I could n't believe it , when I heard that they caught these four people , I said , wow , that 's a big story . And it was , for Fox . Okay . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : Thank you , Mr. President . Earlier today , and just now , you made a significant allegation against the Chinese government . You suggested that the Chinese had meddled in , or are meddling ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : That 's right . That 's what I heard . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : ... the 2018 midterm @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : What evidence do you have of that , sir ? Is there an ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : We have evidence . We have evidence . It will come out . I ca n't tell you now , but it - did n't come out of nowhere , that I can tell you . Now , if you , they 've actually admitted that they 're going after farmers . I think most of you can cover that , I like that you 're shaking your head , yes , I 'm going to ask you the next question because of that , okay ? Probably going to be the killer of all questions . But , but let me just explain ... @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : Why make the charge now if you 're not going to come forward with the evidence ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : China now , put on $250 billion and they 're paying 25% on that , they 're paying billions and - this has never happened to China . And I like China , and I like President Xi a lot . I think he 's a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of mine anymore , but I think he probably respects , from what I hear , if you look at Mr. Pillsbury , the leading authority on China , he was on a show , I wo n't mention the name of the show , recently , and he was saying that China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump 's very , very large brain . He said Donald Trump , they do n't know what to do . Never happened . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Well , one thing they 're trying to do is they 're trying to convince people to go against Donald Trump , because a normal , regular person who has no concept of what the hell he 's doing would continue to let China continue to take $500 billion a year out of our country , and rebuild their country . They were building 29 massive bridges , like the George Washington Bridge , they are building things that we do n't build anymore . But we 're starting to build them again . And our economy now is hotter than it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ saw the confidence levels this morning that just came out , fantastic . And in all fairness to the Fed raising rates , they 're raising rates because we 've never done like we 're doing now . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : And one of the things that is nice about the rates , the people that were hurt the worst by these zero interest rates , you know , when President Obama had an economy that was , it was the worst comeback since the Great Depression , and you 've all heard that , but remember , he was playing with zero interest money . He was playing with funny money . That 's easy . I 'm playing with fairly expensive money . So , when he does that , the people that benefit are people that actually , in their whole life , they would save 10 , 15 , 20% of their salary , put it in the bank , those people got killed , because they put their money in the bank . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : They were going to live off the interest and there was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ interest , and those are the people , frankly , that deserve to , you know , they did a great job . The people that did it right , the people that did the best job got hurt the most . So , in one sense , I like it , but basically , I 'm a low interest rate person , I hate to tell you . Yes , ma'am ? Yes , go ahead . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : Mr. President , you have another meeting tomorrow with Rod Rosenstein. @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Yes . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : Are you planning to fire Rod Rosenstein ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I 'm talking to him . We 've had a good talk . He said he never said it . He said he does n't believe it , he said he has a lot of respect for me . And he was very nice , and we 'll see . And he 's a member of the Trump administration in that sense , in the Justice Department , I would certainly prefer not doing that . There was no collusion , there was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the fact that I fight back , I do fight back , I really fight back . I mean , if you call that obstruction , that 's fine . But there 's no obstruction , there 's no collusion . I 'm going to meet with him tomorrow . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I may call Rod tonight or tomorrow and ask for a little bit of a delay to the meeting , because I do n't want to do anything that gets in the way of this very important Supreme Court pick . So , I do n't want it competing and hurting the decision , one way or the other , decision . Again , I want to hear what she has to say . But I do n't want - so I may delay that . I 'm going to see . I do n't want to do anything that 's going to conflict with that . But my preference would be to keep him . And to let him finish up , you know , I called it a witch hunt . And it is a witch @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Strzok and his lover , Lisa Page , if you look at all the things that have gone on in the FBI , if you look at McCabe taking $700,000 , from a Hillary Clinton Pac , essentially , run by Terry McAuliffe , who is her best friend in the world . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : And he gives them hundreds of thousands of dollars , and he 's in charge of her campaign and his wife is getting all of this money to run . She lost , I mean , what 's going on ? If you look at the horrible statements , like , way to go , Page , great story you put into a newspaper , now we 'll go and investigate that group . It 's terrible . We have caught people doing things that are terrible . I would much prefer keeping Rod Rosenstein , much prefer . Many people say I have the right to absolutely fire him , he said he did not say it , he said he does not believe that , and nobody in this room believes it , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this room . I was with Mike Pompeo before , we were dealing with a very high level with Japan and I was saying things that nobody in the room even understood and I said them a long time ago and I was right . He said , that 's not the 25th amendment that I 'm looking at . I think I can say that for Mike . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : So you do n't think anyone in your administration has ever discussed using the 25th amendment against you . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I do n't think so , oh , well , yeah , enemies , sure . You use anything you can . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : Within your administration or in your cabinet ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Hey , you use anything they can . They 're not in love with me . They 're not going to beat me in the election , they know that . They 're not going to beat me . The people that I 'm looking at are total lightweights . I dream of running against those people . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : But within your administration @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that 's not , they 're not going to beat me . I 'm against what they want to do . I 'm in favor of law enforcement , I 'm in favor of safety and security and low taxes , I want low taxes . I want borders . We 're getting another 1.6 billion in borders . I want borders . We 've spent 3.2 and we 're getting another 1.6 And then eventually we 'll get the whole thing and we 'll complete the wall . They do n't want that . They do n't want that . They do n't want the things that I have . Now , I must say , I know many of the Democrats , they 'll say things and then wink at me . And again , it 's the same old story . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : They 'll say things , they do n't mean it . It 's politics . The reason they do n't want me is because they want to run the show . They want it . It 's power , it 's whoever you want @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is a disgrace , a total disgrace . And what they do , I know it 's sort of interesting , in one case , they say , he 's a fascist , he 's taking over the government , he 's the most powerful president ever , he 's a horrible human being , he wants to take over the entire government and he 's going to do it , we ca n't stop him . That did n't work . The next week , he said , ah , he 's incompetent . In one case , I 'm taking over the world and the other case , he 's incompetent . They tried that for a week , that did n't work . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Look . These are very dishonest people . These are con artists . And the press knows it , but the press does n't write it . Wow . That 's a lot of hands . That 's a lot of , Steve , go ahead . Here 's a very high quality person , this man , but he 'll probably @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ give it to me. @5Inaudible@6 @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : You 're getting letters from Chairman Kim , why do you need a second summit with the North Korean leader so soon ? And what do you ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Because he 'd like it . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : And what would it be for ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : So , I 've received two letters from Chairman Kim . They 're incredible letters . They 're letters that are magnificent in the sense of his feeling for wanting to get this done . I really believe he wants to get it done . I may be wrong . I heard somebody on a certain network last night say , why has President Trump given so much to North Korea , I said , wait a minute . I asked Sarah Huckabee , please call this person . I gave nothing , other than I met . What did I give him ? I did n't do what Obama did , give him $8 billion in cash to get back four hostages . I got back our hostages , I never paid them anything . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ But he wants to make a deal and I 'd like to make a deal . We actually have a very good relationship . A lot different than the last time we were at the United Nations . That was a little bit rough . Do n't forget , that time , they said , oh , Trump is saying these horrible things , he 's going to get us into a war . You 're going to have a war if I was n't elected , you 'd be in a war . And President Obama essentially said the same thing . He was ready to go to war . You would have had a war and you would have lost millions , not thousands , you would have lost millions of people . Seoul has 30 million people 40 miles and 30 miles from this very dangerous border . If I was n't elected , you would have had a war . President Obama thought you had to go to war . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : You know how close he was to pressing the trigger for war ? Millions @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that . Nobody 's talking about that . We have a very good relationship . He likes me , I like him , we get along . He wrote me two of the most beautiful letters . When I showed one of the letters , just one , to Prime Minister Abe , he said , this is actually a groundbreaking letter . This is an incredible , this is an historic letter , and it is . It 's a beautiful , it 's a beautiful piece of art . And I think we 're going to make a deal . Will we make a deal , Steve , I do n't really know , but I think we 're going to . In the meantime , and I 've said it , I do n't want to bore you , no rockets , no missiles , no nuclear tests . You know , for over a year . Well , you have n't seen . Before I got here , everybody in the room thought you were going to war . And then what happened , it was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , he was so rough with Chairman Kim , Kim Jong-un . He was so rough , it 's terrible . Well , I had a great meeting with President Putin . And on this one , he said , he was too soft on President Putin . We discussed everything . Ukraine , Syria , Israel and Israel 's protection , we had a great meeting . They wanted me to end up in a boxing match . And , you know what ? If I was killer tough with President Putin , they would have said , he was too tough . You ca n't win with these people , but you just keep going . In the meantime , we 're doing well . Go ahead . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : So how long - do you think it should take North Korea to denuclearize ? We 've seen estimates of one year , two years . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I do n't want to get into , Steve , I do n't want to get into the time game , you know why ? I told Mike Pompeo , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ time game . We stopped them , they 're taking down plants , they 're taking down a lot of different testing areas , they 're going to take down some more , you 'll be hearing about that very soon , I do n't want to go ahead of myself , but you 'll be hearing about it soon . They have no interest right now in testing nuclear , you know , we had a case just about when I was coming into office , you 'll remember it , where there was a massive , they thought it was an earthquake . A mountain moved over an inch and a half . We 're talking about mountains . North Korea is very mountainous , beautiful land . This mountain actually shifted . It shifted . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : And somebody thought it was an earthquake and then they found out , no , this was nuclear testing . Shifted a mountain . I 'm talking about serious stuff . Serious size . When I came in and certainly before I came in , and even at the beginning @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ know , contests early , I guess you could call it , with Chairman Kim , which we both smile at now and we laugh at , but everybody thought that was a horrible thing . We 've had many presidents , were unable to do anything . Anything at all with North Korea . We now have a good relationship . We have a good relationship . And most importantly , all of the things that you 've been hearing about the horror stories , in my opinion , they 're done . Could they start up again , yes . I 'm a deal guy . Could they start ? Yeah . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Could be that we do n't work it out . I think I have it right here . I think that what we 've done behind the scenes , which nobody really knows about , I do n't blame you for not knowing about , you know , personal letters , private letters , but saying they want to get it done . We know much more than the media for a change , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on behind the scenes , I think you 'd be very impressed . We were a country going to war . I really believe that President Obama would admit that he said it 's by far his biggest problem . When I sat with him prior to going to office , going into office , he said to me , that 's by far the biggest problem , and he said to me that he was very close to going into war . And millions of people not , you know , they say , oh , thousands of people no , not thousands . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Millions of people would have been killed , and that could have left , you 're right next to China , that could have been a world war very easily . Right now we 're in a great position . I do n't want to play the time game . I told Mike Pompeo , do n't let them do that to you . I have n't given anything . And all of a sudden , we got back , a few weeks @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ two and a half months from the summit , which was a great success , and people are screaming , what 's taking so long ? I said , oh , I get it . You have to understand the media , I 've been dealing with the media all my life , too much , too much . They 're screaming and I saw that and our guys were , and not Mike , but our guys were being , well , we 're working as fast , I said , I got all the time in the world . I do n't have to rush it . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : There 's no , you know , cessation of sanctions . I did n't take any sanctions off . I did see a reporter last night , a guy I like personally a lot . And he asked a question to President Moon of South Korea , he said , why did the President give so much ? I did n't give anything . I gave nothing . What have I given ? Other than some time . Yes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Now , giving would be if I took the sanctions off . I did n't want to do , if you ask General Mattis , for a year and a half , I said , why do n't we stop these ridiculous , in my opinion , the military games , I call them the military games . If I told you how much those games cost , and frankly , I told South Korea , you should be paying for these games . We pay for them . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : They said , well , we fly the planes in from a short distance away . I said , where is that ? Guam . How long a trip is that ? Seven hours . We 're flying massive bombers . I wanted to stop this for a long time . I consider that an asset . But we 're saving , by the way , just for the taxpayer , we 're saving a fortune . And if we need them , we can start them up immediately . If I think we need them , I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ The fact is , this reporter said that , I said , what have we done ? I have n't given anything . And we 're really onto the cusp , I think we 're really going to do something that 's going to be very important . But we 're not playing the time game . If it takes two years , three years or five months , does n't matter . There 's no nuclear testing and there 's no testing of rockets . Yes , ma'am , go ahead . Go ahead . Please . This is the one that was nodding with every nice thing I said , so , watch this question . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : @5Inaudible@6 @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : You 're with who ? @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : @5Inaudible@6 From Sky News . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Okay , good , Sky News . Congratulations on the purchase . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : Nothing to do with me. @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I hope you benefited . Go ahead . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : Are you at all concerned about the message that is being sent to the women who are watching this when you use @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ assault ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I 've used much worse language . That 's probably the nicest phrase I 've used . I mean , con job . It is , it 's a con job , you know , confidence , it 's a confidence job , but they - it 's a con job by the Democrats . They know it . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : What about the message that 's being sent to women who are ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : They did the same thing with the Russia investigation . They tried to convince people that I had something to do with Russia . There was no collusion . Think of it . I 'm in Wisconsin , I 'm in Michigan , I say , gee , we 're not doing well , I won both those states . We 're not doing well . Ah , let me call the Russians to help . Does anybody really believe that ? It 's a con job . And I watch these guys , little Adam Schiff and all the guys , he takes a call from a Russian who @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ he was a comedian or something . This is so and so calling . Why is he taking a call from a Russian ? Senator Warner took a call from a Russian . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : He was a comedian or something . But he said , we have pictures of President Trump oh , where can I get them ? If we ever did that , it would be like a big deal . Yeah , it 's a con job . And it 's not a bad term . It 's not a bad term at all . I 'll tell you one thing I can say . I 've had a lot of people talking about this to me with respect to what 's happening , because it 's a horrible precedent . I 'm going to have to get other judges and other Supreme Court judges , possibly . I could have a lot of Supreme Court judges , more than two . And when I called up Brett Kavanaugh , spoke to him and his family and told them that I chose them , they were @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , I mean , the biggest thing that 's ever happened , and I understand that . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : US Supreme Court . I do n't want to be in a position where people say no thanks , no thanks , you know , I , I spoke to somebody years ago and it may not be good . We have a country to run . We want the best talent in the world . But I 'll tell you this , the people that have complained to me about it the most about what 's happening are women . Women are very angry . You know , I got 52% with women , everyone said this could n't happen , 52% . Women are so angry . And I frankly think that , I think they like what the Republicans are doing , but I think they would have liked to have seen it go a lot faster . But give them their day in court , let somebody else have a day in court . But the ones that I find , I mean , I have men @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that are incensed at what 's going on . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I 've always said women are smarter than men . I 've said that a lot . And I mean it . But women , women are incensed at what 's going on . Yes , go ahead . Go ahead . Go ahead , in the back . Who are you , where are you from , yeah , you . Guy looks like he 's shocked . This is going to be not good . Guy looks totally stunned . Have you ever been picked before for a question ? @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : Yes , sir , but not from a President of the United States . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Go ahead . Go ahead , give me your question . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : Thank you very much . My name is @5Inaudible@6 , I want to , sir , ask you , you always talk about ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Excuse me , you said where , from where ? @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : @5Inaudible@6 northern Iraq , I 'm a Kurd . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Good , good . Great people . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Great people . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : Mr. President ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Thank you . Are you a Kurd ? @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : Mr. President ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Good . They 're great people , they 're great fighters . I like them a lot . Let 's go , I like this question . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : Mr. President , you always say you support your allies . Kurds right now , after the defeat of ISIS , are under a lot of pressure in Syria and in Iraq by many adversaries . What will you do to elevate their position , to support them , after they helped the United States to defeat ISIS ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Well , we are helping them a lot and we 've been very friendly with them . As you know , we 've fought side-by-side and we have defeated ISIS , essentially , very short while ago , in the Middle East . And we did it with a lot of help from the Kurds . And they are , they 're great fighters . You know , some people are great fighters @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ fighters and great , great people . We 're discussing that situation exactly right now . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : What will you do to support them , sir ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Well , I 'm just telling you , we 're going to be discussing that situation . We have already started discussing that situation , but we have had tremendous support from the Kurds in defeating ISIS . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : And about Syria , sir , in your speech ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Ah , yes , go . Uh-oh . You do n't need it . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : Mr. President , Susan Lee from Fox Business . Did you reject a one-on-one meeting with the Canadian prime minister , Justin Trudeau ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Yeah , I did . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : Why ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Because his tariffs are too high and he does n't seem to want to move , and I told him , forget about it . And frankly , we 're thinking about just taxing cars coming in from Canada . That 's the mother load , that 's the big one . We 're very @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . We do n't like their representative very much . They 've taken - I love Canada , by the way , I have so many friends , I have everybody , so many friends , but that has nothing to do with this . I 'm representing the United States . Mexico was totally , I mean , they were great . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : By the way , the new president has been great . The deal is done . Now it has to go through Congress and a lot of things have to happen , but we 've done , Bob Lighthizer , who is here some place , where 's Bob ? Bob Lighthizer 's done a great job of negotiating , as they have , but the deal is done . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : Mr. President ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : But Canada has treated us very badly . They 've treated our farmers in Wisconsin and New York state and a lot of other states very badly . Dairy products , 300%. 300% . How do you sell a dairy product at 300% ? The answer is , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . It 's basically , they 're saying , we do n't have any barriers , by the way , it 's 300% , so you do n't send it in because you ca n't compete . So , Canada has a long way to go . I must be honest with you , we 're not getting along at all with their negotiators . We think their negotiators have taken advantage of our country for a long time . We had people that did n't know what they were doing . That 's why we had over the last five or six years , if you average it out , we had $800 billion a year in trade losses . It 's ridiculous . It 's not going to happen . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : What about NAFTA , sir , Mr. President , NAFTA , what does that mean for NAFTA ? Will you be pulling out of NAFTA ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I do n't like NAFTA . I never liked it . It 's been very bad for the United States . It 's been great for Canada , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ us. @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : Will you pull out of ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I 'm not going to use the name NAFTA . I refuse to use it . I 've seen thousands of plants and factories close . I 've seen millions of jobs lost to auto companies that move . Mexico has 25% of our auto business now because of NAFTA . Under our deal , not going to happen anymore , hate to tell you , it 's not . We 're going to keep companies . And I told the Mexicans , I said , we have to keep companies . But they 're getting a lot also , they 're getting other things , they 're getting a lot of good things . Mexico made a very good deal . But with Canada , it 's very tough . What we 're doing is , if we made a deal with Canada , which is , you know , a good chance still , but I 'm not making anything near what they want to do . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : But , are you going to notify Congress @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 're probably going to do is call it the USMC , like , the United States Marine Corps , which I love , General Kelly likes it even more . Where is General Kelly , he likes that , USMC , which would be US , Mexico , Canada , but it will probably or possibly be just USM , it will be United States and Mexico . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : Yes or no , are you gon na ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Canada will come along . Now , if Canada does n't make a deal with us , we 're going to make a much better deal . We 're going to tax the cars that come in , we will put billions and billions of dollars into our treasury and , frankly , we 'll be very happy , because it 's actually more money than you can make under any circumstance with making a deal . Good job , too . You do a very good job . Really . Yes , please , Mr. Kurd . Go ahead . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : Thank you very much for your @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . What will be the USA relations with the Kurds ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Oh , I thought I just answered that . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : Post-ISIS. @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Okay , we 're trying to get along very well . We do get along great with the Kurds . We 're trying to help them a lot . Do n't forget , that 's their territory . We have to help them . I want to help them . Go ahead , what 's next ? They fought with us . They died with us . They died . We lost , tens of thousands of Kurds died fighting ISIS . They died for us and with us and for themselves . They died for themselves . But they 're great people . And we have not forget , we do n't forget . I do n't forget what happens some day later , but I can tell you that I do n't forget . These are great people . Okay . Yes , ma'am , please . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : About Iran , Mr. President , about Iran , one question , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Iraq , in Syria , and especially @5Inaudible@6 ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Well , I think you 've seen , I must tell you , I do n't mind your question . @5Inaudible@6 @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : @5Inaudible@6 thank you . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I think there 's been no greater change , other than maybe China , because China , unfortunately , their markets have dropped , would you say , 30% in the last four months , right ? I think I watched you recently when you said that . I said , I think she 's wrong , I think it 's actually 32 . But that 's okay , but a lot . There 's been no , other than maybe that , but even that , because China is a very special place . And Iran is a very special place . But I think there 's been no country that 's changed so much as Iran . In the last six months since I took off the horrible , horrible Iran nuclear deal , as they called it , one of the dumbest deals ever made . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ care of Yemen in the deal , why did n't they take care of Syria in the deal ? You know what Kerry said the reason ? It was too complicated . We 're giving $150 billion . We paid $1.8 billion in cash , cash , this whole room would be filled up with $100 bills . And you 'd need probably five rooms like this . We gave $1.8 billion in cash . Why did n't we take care of Yemen ? Why did n't we take care of Syria and other , and he said , because it was too complicated . Well , you just gave all your cards . You gave them $150 billion . And now Yemen is a mess , but it 's getting better . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : And Syria 's a mess . And I was responsible , and I hope it stays that way , when I put out on social media a few weeks ago about Idlib Province . I said , do n't do it . I 'll tell you , it happened where I was at a meeting @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ up and she said , there 's a province in Syria with three million people . Right now , the Iranians , the Russians and the Syrians are surrounding their province , and they 're going to kill my sister , and they 're going to kill millions of people in order to get rid of 25,000 or 35,000 terrorists , or enemies of theirs , but I think we can call them terrorists . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : And I said , that 's not going to happen . I did n't hear of Idlib Province . And I came back to New York and I picked up the failing " New York Times , " I hate to admit it was " The New York Times , " but it was the failing " New York Times . " And I opened it up , not on the front page , but there was a very big story , I said , wow , that 's the same story that the woman told me , that I found hard to believe , because why would , how would anyone do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they were being surrounded and they were going in starting literally the next day , they were going to drop bombs all over the place , and perhaps kill millions of people in order to get 35,000 terrorists . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : And I put out on social media and elsewhere , I gave Mike Pompeo , John Bolton , everybody these orders , do n't let it happen . I said , do n't let it happen . That does n't mean they ca n't be selective , they ca n't be , you know , go in and they 've got to do what they 've got to do with terrorists , assume they 're terrorists , but do n't kill millions of people . And it stopped . You saw that . Nobody 's going to give me credit , but that 's okay . That 's okay . Because the people know . I have had more Syrians thank me for that . This was about four weeks ago , I put that out . I said , they 're surrounding a city of three million people @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do n't let it happen . And I meant it , too , I meant it . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : And millions of people have been saved , and I gave today great credit to Iran , I do n't know if you heard that , I gave great credit to Iran , to Russia and to Syria for not doing it . Now I hope it 's going to be surgical , meaning go in and do , it 's lengthy and everything else . And they possibly have to do it . But I think millions of people would have been killed . And that would have been a shame . And hopefully , and I have to tell you , Turkey has been a big help . Turkey has been great . Turkey has helped us very much with that whole situation . Yes , yes . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : Thank you , Mr. President . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Good , thank you very much . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : Touching back on Iran , of course , this week , you put out a call to action to other countries to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ still calling for the US to come back into the old deal . But after meeting with world leaders this week , did you make any progress towards a potential new deal ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Does n't matter what world leaders think on Iran . Iran 's going to come back to me and they 're going to make a good deal . I think . Maybe not . Deals , you never know . But they 're suffering greatly . They 're having riots in every city . Far greater than they were during the green period with President Obama . Far greater , when President Obama stuck up for government , not the people . He probably would have had a much different Iran had he not done that . But I 'm sticking up for the people . I am with the people of Iran . But here 's the thing . They have rampant inflation . Their money is worthless . Everything is going wrong . They have riots in the street . You ca n't buy bread . You ca n't do anything . It @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I think they 're going to want to come back and they 're going to say , hey , can we do something ? And - very simple , I just do n't want them to have nuclear weapons , that 's all . Is that too much to ask ? I do n't want them to have nuclear weapons . I want them to have a great economy . I want them to sell so much oil so that the oil prices , I 'm not happy with OPEC . I told them , I 'm not happy with OPEC . We take care of all these people , we defend them , they would n't there for two weeks if it was n't for me and the United States and our much stronger armed forces than it was , because our armed forces was depleted , we had old equipment . Now we have , hey , you know better than anybody , 700 billion , and 716 billion , we have the most incredible new jets and everything . We need it . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Not that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , it 's all made in the United States . But Iran has to come back and they have to talk . And I 'm not doing this from strength or weakness . I 'm just saying at some point , I think they 're going to have to come back . If you look at what 's going on , companies are leaving left and right . Mercedes-Benz just left . They 're all leaving . They do n't want to be in Iran , because they have a choice . Do they want to be with Iran or do they want to be with us ? And have , by - we picked up $10 trillion since my election . We were being caught by China , now it 's going the other way . People ca n't believe it . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : People have never seen this situation with China . Everything 's always been , for 20 years , oh , China 's so great , China 's so great . You do n't hear that so much anymore . I love China . I think @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ so much anymore . You know who is great now ? We 're great now . Okay , how about just a couple more ? Now , I could be , I could be doing this all day long . I could be doing this all day long . Should we continue for a little while , it does n't matter to me ? Couple of more ? I do n't care . " New York Times . " Come on . " New York Times . " The failing " New York Times . " Stand up . Go ahead . No , I 'm talking about " The Times " is failing . You are far from failing . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : Okay , but you 're not , you were pointing to me , so you meant me. @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : " The Times , " very interesting , " The Times , " I think they 're going to endorse me . I think that ABC , well , Fox , I like Fox , I really do . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : @5Inaudible@6 @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : But I think ABC @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ they 're all going to endorse me , because if they do n't , they 're going out of business . Can you imagine if you did n't have me ? Go ahead , what would you like to say ? @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : @5Inaudible@6 I know you were pointing to me , but I point for PBS News outlet . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I know that . No , I know that . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : Okay . So I want to ask you , yesterday , you were talking about your administration 's accomplishments at the United Nations and a lot of the leaders laughed . Why do you think they were laughing ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Well , that 's fake news . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : And what was that experience like ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Yeah , it 's fake news . And it was covered that way . Okay . So , I said that since my election , our economy has become the hottest in the world . Tax reductions , regulations , confidence levels are the highest in 18 years , really soon to be historic . Unemployment is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ look at black unemployment , you look at Asian unemployment , you look at women , 65 years . The unemployment numbers are among the best we 've ever had , ever . The numbers of new companies pouring into our country , which nobody thought was possible . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : And I said this and I was in front of a large group of highly professional people , most of whom are from either other countries or the United Nations , people that are n't big into clapping , applauding , smiling . And I heard a little rustle , as I said , our country is now stronger than ever before . It 's true . I mean , it is true . And I heard a little rustle , and I said , it 's true . And I heard smiles . And I said , oh , I did n't know there would be that - they were n't laughing at me . They were laughing with me . We had fun . That was not laughing at me . So , the fake news said @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ did n't laugh at me . People had a good time with me . We were doing it together . We had a good time . They respect what I 've done . The United States is respected again . The United States was not respected . Everybody was taking advantage of us , from jobs and taking our companies and not paying the price , to so many other things , even military protection . I told a number of countries over the last few days , I said , listen . You 're a very rich country . We protect you . Without our protection , you would have real problems . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : And I want to ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : You would have real problems . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : I want to ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I said , you should reimburse us for this protection . Why are we protecting you ? And you want to know what they said ? After about two minutes of talking , they agreed with me . And you can ask this group of very talented people . They agreed with me @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ but Mr. President , nobody ever asked us , they never asked us for that . Nobody 's ever said , you should pay . These are really wealthy countries . I mean , I 'll be honest , I just asked Japan , I said , we 're defending you , you 're a very wealthy country . You 're sending us millions of cars , you 're making a fortune . We have a tremendous trade deficit with you . And we 're defending you and we 're subsidizing your military with a massive amount of money . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I said it to South Korea . We have 32,000 soldiers in South Korea . They 're very wealthy . These are great countries . These are very wealthy countries . I said , why are n't you reimbursing us for our costs ? And you know what , they look at me and they ca n't even answer , because there 's no answer . If they 're a poor country and they needed protection and people were going to die , I 'm all for protecting @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ when wealthy countries that have massive trade surpluses with us , massive , and then on top of that , we 're paying for their military or we 're paying for a lot of their military , that does n't work . How about two more and we 'll ... @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : Wait , Mr. President , really quickly , Mr. President , you said you feel a kinship , you said you feel a kinship with Brett Kavanaugh , and you , Mr. President , really quickly , you said you felt a kinship with Brett Kavanaugh , you said that you also , your false allegations that you feel like were made against you make you feel like you do n't want to believe these women . What message do you ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : No , I did n't say that . Why do you say that ? Fake news , why ? Did I say that ? @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : So please explain , well , can you please explain then what you were talking about in ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Excuse me , and by the way , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I did n't say that . I do watch you , and I think you do a very good job , but I did n't say that . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : So could you explain what you meant ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I said , exactly . I look forward to watching her . I do want to hear what she says . And maybe she 'll say , I could be convinced of anything . Maybe she 'll say something . But in the meantime , I have to tell you , he 's one of the highest quality human beings . He 's a tremendous man . He 's a tremendous genius , he 's a great intellect . He was , I believe , number one at Yale , is that a correct statement ? Number one in his class at Yale . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : So you do n't feel a kinship with him ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : He was a great student in law . He was , you know , I 've heard his name , I did n't know him , did n't know him , until @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ But I heard his name for ten years . And you know how I heard his name ? Everybody was saying , he should be on the Supreme Court . I said , who is he ? His name is Brett Kavanaugh . And he should be , he 's the most brilliant person , he 's the most brilliant lawyer , they were talking about him on the Supreme Court ten years ago . With all of that , I want to hear what she has to say . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : But you said that you do n't , but you said that you feel like there have been numerous false allegations against you , and that because of that ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Oh , I 've had many false ... @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : ... you understand what he was going through . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I 've had many false statements against me and if the press would have reported , I would have been very happy . I think John Roberts would tell you that , you covered the story where the women were paid to say bad things @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ tell you , when I saw that on Sean Hannity , I actually called him . Believe it or not . I do n't speak to him very much . But I respect him . I called him . I said , this is the biggest story , this is a big , big story . He agreed with me . The next day , I picked up the papers , there was n't one word about it . The next day I watched ABC News , Jon , I watched NBC , I watched CBS , I did n't watch CNN , but next time I will . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : And are you okay with ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I watched everything . There was n't one story other than Fox . And it 's a big story . It 's a shame . Okay , enough , thank you . Thank you . Thank you . @1REPORTER-FEMALE@2 : And is it okay if I give it to " The New York Times , " is it okay if I give it to " The New York Times , " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ enough , please . Good job . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : Mr. President , could I ask a question since I am from " The New York Times , " before this gentleman ? @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : Mr. President . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Since you 're where ? @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : I 'm actually from " The New York Times . " @5Inaudible@6 is my former colleague , and we miss her . But I was hoping ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I do n't blame you . But , I 'll let you do it after he does . Is that okay ? @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : That 's perfectly well . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : In honor of a paper I once loved . Thank you . Go ahead . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : Mr. President , my name is Edward Szall , with TruNews . Today , you met with Bibi Netanyahu from Israel and you brought up actually that you supported a two state solution for the Palestinian/Israeli crisis there . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I do . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : Can you give us anymore preview of what this great deal , the peace deal ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Well , I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the Israelis and the Palestinians . You know , my whole life , I was told , that 's the toughest deal . And I disagree , I think health care is probably tougher , okay , you want to know . But it is tough . We 're going to take care of that , too . That 's going to get taken care of . We 've already taken care of a lot of it . But the whole , my life , I 've always heard the deal between , as you know , Israel and the Palestinians , that 's like the toughest deal . Every possible thing is tough about that . I think we 're going to make a deal . I think we 're going to make a deal . So , at one of our many meetings today , I was with Bibi Netanyahu , a man who I have a lot of respect for . A man who 's been extremely nice to me , very happy that I did the whole thing with Jerusalem and the embassy , which , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ four months for less than $500,000 . And the budget was over a billion dollars , right ? @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : Yes . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : So , we saved , let 's say a billion dollars . That 's not so bad . And it 's open . And it 's beautiful , by the way . Jerusalem stone . One of my favorite stones . I will tell you , the question , somebody said today , well , this is the first news conference in a long time , I said , what do you mean ? I did like five today . Every time I sit , I take a lot of questions from people that are screaming like maniacs in the back of the room , meaning reporters , and one of the reporters , I wo n't say that it was John Roberts that said that , I - but one of the , it was , but that 's okay . Do n't feel guilty , John . But one of the reporters that was screaming asked about the one state/two state . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ happen , I think it 's in one way more difficult , because it 's a real estate deal , because you need meets and bounds and you need lots of carve outs and lots of everything . It 's actually a little tougher deal . But another way it works better , because you have people governing themselves and , so , they asked me about that , I said , well , I think the two state will happen , I think we 're going to go down the two state road . And I 'm glad I got it out . And Jared , who is so involved , he loves Israel , he loves Israel . But he 's also going to be very fair with the Palestinians . He understands it takes two people to be happy . Two groups of people to be happy . Everybody 's got to be happy . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : And that 's why it 's so tough , because there 's been so much hatred and anger for so many years , that 's what probably the number one @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I said , I think it 's going to be a two state . And you know what I did today ? By saying that , I put it out there . And if you ask most of the people in Israel , they agree with that . But nobody wanted to say it . It 's a big thing to put it out . It 's a very big thing to put it out . Now , bottom line , if the Israelis and the Palestinians want one state , that 's okay with me , if they want two states , that 's okay with me . I 'm happy if they 're happy . I 'm a facilitator , I want to see if I can get a deal done so that people do n't get killed anymore . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : When we had , in Saudi Arabia , we had one of the great conferences in history , many of you were there , probably all of you were there . One of the most beautiful two days . That and China . Two of the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I 've never seen anything like it . And we had , I believe , 58 Muslim countries , the leaders , the kings , the Amirs , the absolute leaders , @5Inaudible@6 in second place . They were the leaders of all . Unbeknownst to anybody else , people would come up to me , - it was n't a setup , they 'd come up to me and say , sir , you ca n't have peace in the Middle East without peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians . I said , why , what difference , why does that matter so much ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : They said , it just is impossible to make peace in the Middle East unless you have it between the Israelis . So , I heard that from one , the king of Saudi Arabia , who is a great guy , King Salman . And then somebody else came up , and he was n't told , oh , go up and say it . I know where they 're coming from . And I must have had 12 leaders @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I started to realize that peace between Israel and the Palestinians for the Middle East is a very important thing . And we 're trying very hard to get it . I think probably two state is more likely , but you know what ? If they do a single , if they do a double , I 'm okay with it if they 're both happy . If they 're both happy , I 'm okay with either . I think the two state is more likely . Okay , how about one , go ahead . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : " New York Times " ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Ah , ah , okay . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : Thank you , sir . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I would have gotten a bad story in " The New York Times , " but I will anyway , so . Okay , we 'll do you after that , and then we 'll call it quits . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : We 're kind of thriving , not failing , these days . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : You 're doing very well . Say thank you , Mr. Trump @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I wonder how you do , you know , all my life , I 've had very few stories , but I 've had some on the front page of " The New York Times " and now I think I average about three or four a day , right ? And of the three or four , they 're all negative , no matter what I do , they 're negative . But you know what , that 's okay . I still love the paper . Go ahead . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : I wanted to come back to China , because I think what you announced today was really important . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I agree . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : You talk about this friendship you have with Xi Jinping , and yet , essentially , what you did today is accused his government of interfering in our internal affairs . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : That 's right . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : Subverting our democratic process and doing it to hurt you , the Republican Party ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Doing it to help them . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : ... and your @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ doing it to help them . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : So , how can a guy who does that be your friend ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I think that we are able to , and maybe he 's not anymore . I 'll be honest with you , I think we had a very good friendship . I think we had a very good relationship . We understand each other . They are doing studies on Donald Trump , they 're trying to figure it all out , because this has never happened to them before . It 's never happened . Think of it . You 've never seen , you 've covered very well , you 've never seen this happen . They 're having big problems . I do n't want them to have problems , but they have to make a fair deal . Just like Canada 's got to make a fair deal . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I believe that he and I have a very good chemistry together . And I can tell you that about many leaders , I can also tell you a few where I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ them , I do n't want to have a chemistry with them . And for those people , I 'll have Pompeo , Nikki , Bolton , Jared , I can go , our general , I 'll have our general , or if they ca n't do it , I 'll have Sarah Huckabee do it , right ? But , but for the most part , I have very good , very good with Prime Minister Abe , very good with President Moon . By the way , what President Moon said last night , I know you wo n't report it , but Bret Baier interviewed him last night and he asked him about me. @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I ca n't say because you would say I 'm too braggadocios , but what he said about me last night was an unbelievable thing . Could n't have happened without President Trump , and it never would happen without President Trump . And nobody else could do it . I mean , you 'll take a look , but I will tell you , China is very special . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ an incredible country . What they 've done is unbelievable . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : How ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : And it all started with the WTO . There was a defective deal and it all started . Without the WTO , China is not China as we know it today , and then it started also by our people that are standing right in this position that are in the Oval Office , another way of saying it , allowed them to get away with murder . Allowed a lot of countries to get away with murder . I think we still probably have a very good relationship , but you know what , in honor of you , I will , tomorrow , make a call to him , say , hey , how you doing ? Okay ? Can I , you do n't mind paying billions of dollars a month in tariffs . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : I just have two small follow-ups . One is , how would you compare the level of interference you see today from the Chinese to what the Russians did in 2016 ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ look at " The Des Moines Register , " they have ads that are made to look like editorials , saying about , oh , you have to stop Trump , you have to stop him . You 've got to vote against him . My farmers are so good . These are patriots . You know , on a network that does n't like me very much , which is most of them , but a network that did n't , does n't really treat me very good , they interviewed farmers and they got hurt because , you know , all of a sudden , China stops buying . By the way , they 've started buying again , I do n't know if you 've noticed . Soybeans are going up , and things are going up , and we 've had very little hurt from what I 've done . In fact , the markets have gone up and the farmers are going to do great , but ultimately , but they had farmers . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : And these guys are amazing . I love them @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . And they said , we do n't care if we get hurt , he 's doing the right thing . And , you know , a lot of people , it 's a complex game . A lot of people do n't know exactly what it is , they do n't know how to define tariff , they do n't know , it is really different than a tax , although it 's getting close . But they know that for the first time in many , many years , they have a president that 's fighting for them . That 's not letting their jobs be taken to other countries . That 's not allowing the kind of abuse that , I mean , when you look at what happened as an example with NAFTA , and for years , because it was never changed , NAFTA was a defective deal the day it was signed . You know why ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Because they had a VAT text of 17% and nobody from this country knew that , and by the time they found out , which @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it . So , you went many years , and they never changed it . There was a VAT tax that Mexico got . So , we were 17 or 16 points behind before we even started . NAFTA was a horrible thing . So , the farmers and , by the way , the steelworkers , you know , I stopped the dumping , the dumping was horrible . And now if they want to dump , that 's okay , but they 've got to pay the United States of America 25% on everything they dump . That 's okay . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : But as I told you before , steel is doing phenomenally well . But the farmers say , this man 's fighting for us , no president has ever fought for us before . And you really have to study what 's happened over the 15 years . The farmers have been decimated over a 15 year period . They 've been decimated . Farmers are going to come out great . They 're great , great patriots . I think we should finish with @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ahead , let 's go . Fast . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : Sure . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Always like to finish with a good one . Elton John said , when you hit that last tune and it 's good , do n't go back . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : Well let me ask you ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : I 've seen , have you ever seen , they do great , they 're great , they hit the last tune , and everyone goes crazy , then they go back for an encore , right ? And they do n't hit it . And they leave , everyone leaves , they say , that was n't a very good concert , was it ? Let 's go . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : Well , I 'll ask you one final question ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Do n't make me wrong . Go ahead . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : ... ahead of tomorrow 's hearing , because you were asked earlier in the news conference about ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Say it again , say it again . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : About the hearing tomorrow . You were asked earlier in the news @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that you are sending to the women of the country . What about the message that you may be sending to young men ? You 're a father . What does this moment that we 're in , the cultural moment ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : It 's a very big cultural moment . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : Right . So what message are you sending to the young men of America ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : It 's a very big , you 're right . I think it 's a great question . This is a very big moment for our country . Because you have a man who is very outstanding , but he 's got very strong charges against him . Probably charges that nobody 's going to be able to be , to prove . So , I could have you chosen for a position , I could have you or you , anybody , and somebody could say - and it 's happened to me . Many times . Where false statements are made . And honestly , nobody knows who to believe . I could pick another Supreme Court @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ one , another one , this could go on forever . Somebody could come and say , 30 years ago , 25 years ago , 10 years ago , 5 years ago , he did a horrible thing to me. @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : He did this , he did that , he did that . And honestly , it 's a very dangerous period in our country . And it 's being perpetrated by some very evil people , some of them are Democrats , I must say , because some of them know that this is just a game that they 're playing . It 's a con game , it 's at the highest level . We 're talking about the United States Supreme Court . This can go on forever . I can pick five other people at a certain point , people are going to say , no thank you . This is the most coveted job , probably in the world . @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : And , you know what , I would honestly say , because I interviewed great people for this job , he 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ job . I could conceivably imagine going to one of them and saying , it 's too bad what happened to this wonderful man . But I 'm going to choose you , number two . I want you to go , and I could conceivably be turned down by somebody that desperately wanted this job two months ago . So , this is ... @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : With respect , sir ... @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : This is beyond Supreme Court . There 's nothing beyond Supreme Court , this is beyond Supreme Court . This is everything to do with our country . When you are guilty , until proven innocent , it 's just not supposed to be that way . Always I heard you 're innocent until proven guilty . I 've heard this for so long and it 's such a beautiful phrase . In this case , you 're guilty until proven innocent . I think that is a very , very dangerous standard for our country . With that being said , I look forward to what she has to say . I also look very @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ think it 's going to be a very , very important day in the history of our country . I want to thank you all . We 'll do it again . @1REPORTER-MALE@2 : Sir , the message to young men ? Sir , young men , young teenager men ? Nothing to say , sir ? @1PRESIDENT-DONALD-TRU@3 : Thank you very much . @1MODERATOR-MALE@2 : Please , ladies and gentlemen , remain seated , as our delegation ... @1GEORGE-STEPHANOPOULO@3 : @5OC@6 Well , that was something . About an hour and 20 minutes from President Trump , a freewheeling , at times factually challenged press conference . Started out criticizing the Federal Reserve for raising interest rates . Also had criticism for China . Seemed to say that there was not going to be a trade deal with - Canada and China , issuing tariffs as well . Criticizing their interference in our election . And the President , the heart of the press conference , of course , those questions about Brett Kavanaugh , three women have now come forward with accusations against Brett Kavanaugh. @1GEORGE-STEPHANOPOULO@3 : @5OC@6 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , returned to this phrase many times , a big con job basically run by Democrats . Also questioned why the women had n't come forward earlier , but at the same time , saying he 's looking forward to hearing what - Dr. Ford has to say tomorrow . And that he could make up his mind after hearing that . I want to bring in Jon Karl , our chief White House correspondent . Jon , it 's hard to summarize that in just a few words . But I 'm not sure that he helped Brett Kavanaugh 's case today . @1JONATHAN-KARL-ABC-N@3 : @5OC@6 No , George . First of all , an extraordinary performance by the President . But he was all over the map . At some points , calling this a con job , all of the allegations against Brett Kavanaugh . At other times , sounding like he might well cut him loose , if he does n't like what he hears at the hearing . He even said , George , that he may cancel his much anticipated meeting with the Deputy @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , all the focus , including his own focus , to be on that hearing tomorrow with Kavanaugh and his accuser , Christine Blasey Ford . @1GEORGE-STEPHANOPOULO@3 : @5OC@6 And the President admitting that his , his own experience with women making accusations against him for sexual misconduct also having a great impact on his , on his views on this matter . We 're going to sign off right now , of course , we 're going to be covering that hearing tomorrow live starting at 10:00 Eastern , I 'll be anchoring that coverage with our entire political and legal team . Now we 're going to return to our regular programming . For many of you on the east coast , that is " World News Tonight " with David Muir . @1ANNOUNCER@2 : This has been a special report from ABC News .

@@5000541 @5830-AM-EDT@6 @5Garth-Brooks-perform@7 @1JOHN-DICKERSON@2 : And that 's Garth Brooks from his upcoming special . We 're going to talk about that in a moment . But first , welcome back to CBS THIS MORNING . Right now it 's time to show you some of this morning 's headlines . The New York Times says the -- the Justice Department charged two Iranians with -- with hacking attacks on U.S. cities . They 're accused of taking over computer systems at U.S. businesses , hospitals , and government agencies . Prosecutors say the hackers demanded payment by Bitcoin to unlock data . The attacks cost victims more than thirty million dollars in losses . The suspects are believed to be in Iran , but prosecutors believe they 'll be caught eventually . @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : The Wall Street Journal says sales at Dick 's Sporting Goods fell nearly four percent in the latest quarter . The largest decline since it took a tough stance against guns . The company announced in February after the Parkland school shooting that it would stop selling assault-style guns and would no longer sell guns and ammo to people under twenty-one . Weakness in the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ half of the decline in sales . @1NORAH-O'DONNELL@2 : The Washington Post says children who start school at a younger age are more likely to get a diagnosis of ADHD even if they do n't have it . Harvard University researchers found younger children in a classroom are thirty percent more likely to be diagnosed . They say children may be improperly diagnosed when they are just immature . The American Psychiatric Association estimates that five percent of children have ADHD. @1JOHN-DICKERSON@2 : The Oregonian in Portland says older drivers who take a concerning number of drugs still drive . AAA study found nearly half of the drivers between the ages of sixty-five and seventy-nine took seven or more prescription medicines . Many older people do n't understand how the drugs they take can interact with each other . About twenty percent of those medications are proven to dramatically increase a driver 's risk of a crash . @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : And USA Today says the holidays are boxed in by a recycling crisis . Million -- some of the millions of boxes delivered to our homes may not get recycled @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ our recyclable materials driving out the cost of recycling . Some cities are raising collection fees . Others are thinking of ditching their recycling programs altogether . @1NORAH-O'DONNELL@2 : For many people , Garth Brooks is country music . The superstar is the best-selling solo artist in U.S. history . That 's right . He has sold more than one hundred and forty-eight million albums . Brooks recently made history by performing the first concert ever at Notre Dame Stadium , and that groundbreaking show will be broadcasting -- be broadcast this Sunday as a CBS special . @5Excerpt-from-Garth-@7 @1NORAH-O'DONNELL@2 : And Garth Brooks is here . Good morning . @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 @5Country-Music-Singer@6 : Good morning . How are you all ? @1JOHN-DICKERSON@2 : Good morning . @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : Happy holidays . @1NORAH-O'DONNELL@2 : Yes . Happy holidays . @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : Me , too . @1NORAH-O'DONNELL@2 : It 's so terrific to hear you . Think about Notre Dame Stadium . I think it 's like eighty-eight years old . They 've had nine championships , Notre Dame team . What was it like to play in that stadium ? @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , you know , I 'll -- I 'll remember the call the rest of my life when the call starts , are you familiar with Notre Dame Stadium ? Yeah , a little bit . So they wanted their first ever concert there . For some reason , they picked us . And I got to tell you , the crowd that showed up stole the show . @1NORAH-O'DONNELL@2 : Yeah . It was like eighty-eight thousand people . @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : They were -- they were very sweet . Just -- they were so cool because they were battling weather . They were doing all this . But they came sports-minded ( INDISTINCT ) , they bundled up and they sang their butts off . It was a lot of fun . @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : Of course , you 're used to big crowds , though . We remember over twenty years ago -- @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : Yes . @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : -- your big concert in Central Park here in New York City . I believe the last estimates were close to a million -- @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : Yeah . It 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Your music transcends all party lines , all music lines . What do you think -- what do you think makes that happen ? @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : You know , I do n't know . But it 's fun to look out and see all the colors. @1NORAH-O'DONNELL@2 : Mm-Hm. @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : All the races . Half guys , half girls . @1NORAH-O'DONNELL@2 : Mm-Hm. @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : It 's good to see . And it 's good to see different beliefs out there because , I 'm sorry , man , I know this is not a popular thought , but I think it 's our differences , that it 's our strength , you know ? And I think we need us all . So I can verify that at a Garth show , we need every one of them , everything . They 're all singing , it 's fun . @1JOHN-DICKERSON@2 : What 's it feel like when you 're walking on to a stage that 's that big ? Does it just feel like a little bit different ? Or do you think , wow , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Notre Dame , it 's -- it 's -- like you said , it 's an older stadium so there 's only one way in , one way out , right ? So when they introduce you , you got to walk through the people to get to the stage . So they introduce you . But fifteen minutes later , you finally get to the stage because you 're hugging everybody , shaking everybody 's hand . And by the time you hit that stage , you felt so much like a family that it was just a party from the word go . It was a lot of fun . @1NORAH-O'DONNELL@2 : What 's the challenge in terms of making sure that the people in the back row feel just as included as those that are sitting on the floor in the front row ? @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : Yeah . Man , you got to find them . And -- and , you know , if you do this for a living you were a fan first . So you 've been to concerts and you know what you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a concert do n't dump a whole new album on me . Give me the old stuff that 's what I came there for , you know . @1NORAH-O'DONNELL@2 : That I know how to sing . @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : Right . Exactly . @1NORAH-O'DONNELL@2 : Yeah . @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : And then there 's a big thing , it 's just -- you just want that three seconds to look right in the eyes of George Strait or Freddie Mercury when I was a teenager . @1JOHN-DICKERSON@2 : Mm-Hm. @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : And go , man , thank you . Thank you for what your music 's done for me . Well , now that the tables have switched and you 're on stage , it 's funny , you 're looking at everybody for that three seconds to go , thank you for my life , thank you for my kids ' life . Yeah . @1JOHN-DICKERSON@2 : Is that something -- okay , hang -- stay with me here , Garth . In football , they sometime say it 's only until the first hit -- @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : Yes . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Is it until you get that moment , that connection that , you know , okay , I 'm locked in , you go ? @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : Yeah . Yeah . It 's fun because you 're scared to death . You do n't want to disappoint anybody . All you can think about is keep your gut sucked in , keep your gut sucked in when you 're singing . And two lines in , you 're lost . It 's a party . It 's -- it 's so much fun . @1JOHN-DICKERSON@2 : What do -- @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : Talk about how country music has evolved over the years . @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : Country music always changes . So now that you 're one of the older guys you 're looked upon as one of the traditionalists , right ? But when we first started out , you guys remember this , we were not considered the traditionalists . We were the trouble makers , right ? So I think it always just turns that page because country music is always changing . It is the news put @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ going to change with time . @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : We always consider you the nicest guys . Right ? @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : Oh . @1JOHN-DICKERSON@2 : How do you -- or do you need to get back to that moment when you were playing tor tips that first time ? Do you feel -- that -- that getting place for you ? And how do you get back there when you 're playing on a stage that 's this big which is really different from where you started out ? @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : They say time is a friend to all things good . I also think time does n't affect good things . So for me , it 's the same as when you first started playing . It does n't matter if it 's five people , if it 's a million people in Central Park , it 's still all about that one-on-one . If you can establish that , and I got to tell you , man , they come there -- I know because I went to so many concerts as a fan , you go there wanting @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that connection . So it 's pretty easy to get that connection for sure . @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : And music is really a family business for you , obviously . Your wife , Trisha Yearwood , we love her too . We know your children sing as well , your daughters . Talk about the struggle for women in the industry -- @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : Oh . @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : -- because you said it is a thousand times harder for women in country music than men . @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : Yeah . The phrase is a woman 's got to work a thousand times harder to get a tenth as much . It 's just what -- and I do n't know why . What I really enjoyed about the ' 90s was the female voice in country music was about fifty-fifty . And I think that brings a whole new voice because women reason . They just do . Guys , we 're -- we 're just -- we 're just guys , we 're stupid , we always are . You know , we 're -- we 're always going to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And when you get a voice of reason , I just think it makes things better . @1NORAH-O'DONNELL@2 : So , Trisha Yearwood , your wife -- @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : Yes . @1NORAH-O'DONNELL@2 : -- for those out there who do n't know , Trisha Yearwood , you guys have been married for a while , you surprised her at the CMAs with the song . @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : Mm-Hm. @1NORAH-O'DONNELL@2 : Did she really not know what you were going to sing ? @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : Did n't have a clue . And hats off to everybody , the studio musicians that cut the song two months before , the engineer , are the only ones that have heard it . And even Robert Deaton , the -- the dude that does everything , he does the Billboard Awards , CMAs . This is the -- the -- the most busy cat on the planet , drives out to your house to listen to the song at your house because there 's no other recording of it -- @1NORAH-O'DONNELL@2 : Oh . @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : -- to do his notes and stuff . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to do . So everyone kind of chipped in for the surprise for her . @1NORAH-O'DONNELL@2 : So did she like it ? @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : Yes . She liked it . @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : She was happy ? @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : She was -- it was good for us too as our relationship , because it opened a lot of doors for us to talk about things we never got past . You know , you guys know this . You have the same arguments . Always come to the same place . And this song actually helped us get past a couple points , which is great . So the song has been a real gift to us. @1NORAH-O'DONNELL@2 : Do you mind sharing what that -- what -- what was one of those struggles you had ? @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : It was just -- it 's -- it 's when you have two people in the house that kind of do the same thing , then you always have two people that are -- are loving one another so what you do is you back down so the other one can @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ down , nothing ever gets done . So it was kind of that brave thing of , " Look , man , just tell me what you 're thinking . You 're not going to hurt my feelings . You love me , I love you to death . Let 's just be really gut-wrenching honest with each other . " Never ask that from your wife ever because -- @1JOHN-DICKERSON@2 : Because , you know -- @5Cross-talking@6 @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : -- it got gut-wrenching honest . @1JOHN-DICKERSON@2 : Yes . @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : She opened Pandora 's box , right ? @1JOHN-DICKERSON@2 : Women reason and sometimes they reason too strong . @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : Yeah . Well , sometimes they 're too right , that 's the problem . @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : I do n't want to over generalize . You know , I mentioned that we always think that country musicians are the nicest folk . But every time we talk about people who we interview and it comes to country music , you guys are grounded , there 's a spiritual strength that you have . And you are genuinely @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : What is it that keeps you going and -- and keeps you so -- so grounded ? @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : I 'm about to expose all of rock , pop , and rap , okay . When they 're not talking to you guys , they 're the sweetest people on the planet . I just think it 's a thing that they do for their format . But let 's take the group KISS , okay . You 're not going to get crazier than that . They come in to record , they 're doing the tribute album in Nashville . Sweetest guys on the planet . I 've blown their cover right now . @1JOHN-DICKERSON@2 : Yeah . @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : They were showing baby pictures . They 're just the nicest guys . But when they start to walk out on the street , they became them again , right ? So I think it 's -- I think all of us are humans underneath and I think you just got to get to it . @1NORAH-O'DONNELL@2 : Mm-Hm. @1JOHN-DICKERSON@2 : You said you went to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ now ? Who 's on your -- @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : I got to tell you of the -- of the new stuff that I just love . Ed Sheeran 's got my ear right now so much simply because of what all he does out of just what he is playing . Gaga has more guts in this business than any male that 's in it , so I love it . And I do n't think you get better than Adele . I got to tell you , I just -- I just floored with her . On the country side , you got guys like Ashley McBryde , who 's a singer-songwriter , when you talk about a woman that 's working a thousand times to get a tenth as much . But people are listening to her and that 's smart because she 's got a lot of good things to say . @1NORAH-O'DONNELL@2 : Wow . @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : You 're also listening to your -- your daughters , right ? Briefly mentioned that -- @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : Little Allie is -- is trying her hand at music . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you know , you do n't want to get in the way of it and she is -- she is learning a ton . This is the best time to be an artist because this is where you 're just filling up your brain with everything that you 're learning . @1NORAH-O'DONNELL@2 : Well , Garth Brooks , so great to have you . @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : It 's a pleasure . @1NORAH-O'DONNELL@2 : And still -- and still looking forward to Sunday night . @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : Thank you . This is going to be fun . @1NORAH-O'DONNELL@2 : Thank you . @1JOHN-DICKERSON@2 : Yeah . @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : Great to see you . @1NORAH-O'DONNELL@2 : And you can see Garth : Live at Notre Dame this Sunday night right here on CBS . And Garth Brooks will be a guest tonight on CBS ' The Late Show with Stephen Colbert . You 'll have fun . @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : This was a fun conversation . @1GARTH-BROOKS@2 : Thank you very much . Right back to you . Happy holidays . @1NORAH-O'DONNELL@2 : Yes . @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : Well , in our More Perfect @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of so-called Jewish pen -- penicillin . @1JOHN-BLACKSTONE@2 : What is the magic of chicken soup ? @1RABBI-SHMUEL-TIECHTE@3 : It 's warm , it 's homey . It makes you feel better . And it 's not just the chicken soup , it 's the fact that somebody thought to come and give it to you -- the fact that someone cares . I think chicken soup shows caring with love . @1BIANNA-GOLODRYGA@2 : I grew up on that penicillin . Ahead , how the rabbi and his wife delivered to help college students with a cold . But first , a check of your local weather . @5LOCAL-WEATHER-BREAK@6 @5ANNOUNCEMENTS@6

@@5000641 @1BYRON-PITTS-ABC-NEW@3 : Kim Petras is a new pop sensation owning the global stage with her songs and image . Now , the inside look into her rise to fame as an artist and a trailblazer for the transgender community . Here 's ABC 's Paula Faris. @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5VO@6 Music 's new pop princess has a story to tell . And Kim Petras has an audience eager to listen . @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5OC@6 What is it that makes the , the Kim Petras touch so special ? @1KIM-PETRAS-POP-RECO@3 : I think , I think I 've studied pop music really , really hard my entire life . Also , I 'm , I 'm always trying to do new things . I do n't like repeating myself . @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5VO@6 She 's reached heights of fame so far , untouched by any other transgender artist in the music industry . And while she says her identity does influence her work , it does n't define it . @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5OC@6 And , you want your music to speak for itself , which I think it does . @1KIM-PETRAS-POP-RECO@3 : Thank you so much , but , but yeah @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ artist first and to fight for transgender rights , but not have that be everything that defines me. @1KIM-PETRAS-FAN-MALE@3 : You give us the greatest songs and the greatest looks and also like a deep truth , and nobody , nobody is what you are . @1KIM-PETRAS-FAN-FEMA@3 : She 's so unapologetically herself , and I think it 's really inspiring . @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5VO@6 Her rise to the top might feel like an overnight success , but this music idol has been in the game for a decade now . @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5VO@6 Just two years ago , she blasted onto the charts with a new anthem from millennials called " I Do n't Want it at All . " The song featured a cameo by Paris Hilton . The lyrics , something she described when I sat down with her in front of some of her biggest fans . It was all part of ABC 's " Pride Speaker " series . @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5OC@6 You call this a sugar baby anthem . And you said it was heavily , heavily inspired by Madonna 's " Material Girl @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ song is so bratty . It 's just like my bratty fantasy . It gets sparked by this visit to Sephora . I just had closed , like , an amazing , like , publishing deal . @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5OC@6 Uh-huh ? @1KIM-PETRAS-POP-RECO@3 : So , my manager was like oh , get whatever you want , I 'll buy it . And , if somebody 's says that , like , I 'm going in. @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5OC@6 You 're going all in ? @1KIM-PETRAS-POP-RECO@3 : And I went , I went all the way in . That 's literally what the cashier said to my manager . He was like , just close your eyes and swipe it , sweetie . And it was really , and , that 's that was when the song was born . @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5VO@6 Her music is a fantasy-filled world . Songs with glossy club beats , a temporary escape from life 's cruel realities . @1KIM-PETRAS-POP-RECO@3 : Growing up , I could never go to the concerts I wanted to go to because I did n't have enough money . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ This Way " ball and , like , screaming every single word out . All my worries were gone , and that was like , that 's what pop music to me is supposed to do . Make people forget about their problems , and that 's , like , my goal in life to do that . @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5OC@6 Right . @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5VO@6 Her goal fulfilled in hit after hit . Her singles like " Heart to Break " to " Faded , " all of it unapologetically pop . @1KIM-PETRAS-POP-RECO@3 : I do n't believe in , like , guilty pleasure . Like , I do n't feel guilty for listening to anything . @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5VO@6 The German-born singer first made headlines at 16 years old , as one of the youngest people to undergo the gender confirmation process . Since then , Petras has owned her image and her sound , releasing all her music independently , claiming more 140 million streams across all platforms . @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5OC@6 Who 's your musical inspiration ? @1KIM-PETRAS-POP-RECO@3 : A lot of the girls . Kylie @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , Ariana Grande , Gwen Stefani . All - of the fabulous pop girls , honestly . @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5VO@6 Now , the 26-year-old is launching a new project called " Clarity , " and a new tour . @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5OC@6 This is the first tour that you 've headlined . Congratulations . @1KIM-PETRAS-POP-RECO@3 : Yeah . Thank you so much . Oh , yeah , sold out now . @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5OC@6 That 's right . @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5VO@6 It also marks a shift in tone for the pop star . @1KIM-PETRAS-POP-RECO@3 : It started out with the song " Broken . " @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5OC@6 Mm-hmm . @1KIM-PETRAS-POP-RECO@3 : Which is about me being heartbroken and going through a rough breakup and feeling really lost in life . My personal life was just like trash. @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5OC@6 So you poured it all into your music . @1KIM-PETRAS-POP-RECO@3 : I put it all into my music , because writing songs is like my , kind of like my therapy . @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5VO@6 Fans were first drawn to her voice through viral videos like this cover of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ " @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5VO@6 Her sound soon capturing attention in the music industry , and catapulting her into real recording studios . @1KIM-PETRAS-POP-RECO@3 : What I learned from my story is that it 's really important to speak about it . Because I get so many beautiful messages from people all over the world . My music , and my videos gave them a place where they belong , and that 's really beautiful . @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5VO@6 Her honesty in those early interviews , helping change the conversation about trans stars , making their identity just a part of their artistry . @1KIM-PETRAS-FAN-MALE@3 : I love the fact that we have someone who is out and proud and vocal about her trans identity and belonging to the queer community @1KIM-PETRAS-FAN-FEMA@3 : Her music is something fresh . It 's bubblegum pop , but it just has a little edge . @1KIM-PETRAS-FAN-MALE@3 : Took a 14-hour flight to get to this concert . Yeah . @1KIM-PETRAS-FAN-MALE@3 : Like , she 's pop music . She 's saving it . @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5OC@6 You have performed a lot in gay bars @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in a gay bar or a club ? Okay . You can cheer . @1KIM-PETRAS-POP-RECO@3 : Yeah . @1KIM-PETRAS-POP-RECO@3 : I feel like I was raised in gay clubs . Like , my whole life I was going to gay clubs with my friends , going to hang out with my gay homies . My , like , they 're my family . They 're my friends . They 're , like , my whole life basically , is a gay club at this point . It 's meant the world to me to , like , have people want to listen to , like , my songs . And , you know , sing back the lyrics that I 'm writing and relate to it . It 's , it 's really made me feel like , I do n't know . Like I - belong . @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5VO@6 Once her daydream , now her whole life is a diva 's cocktail of rehearsals , wardrobe changes ... @1MATTHEW-MAZUR-STYLI@3 : You can take off jacket . @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5VO@6 ... and concert lineups. @1KIM-PETRAS-POP-RECO@3 : It 's about @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it always comes back to her fans . @1KIM-PETRAS-POP-RECO@3 : Good to see you . @1KIM-PETRAS-FAN-FEMA@3 : Good to see you too . @1PAULA-FARIS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5VO@6 And , now her work is reminding them to be brave and keep dreaming . @1KIM-PETRAS-POP-RECO@3 : I want to be a spokesperson . In the beginning , I was really scared of it , because back in the day , like , transgender was the only thing people wanted to talk to me about . I 'm not scared anymore of people saying that I 'm using my identity or using the gay community or anything like that because , like , I 'm a gay . I 'm not scared . @1BYRON-PITTS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5OC@6 Kim 's new project " Clarity " is dropping on Friday . @1BYRON-PITTS-ABC-NEW@3 : @5OC@6 Next , a historic first for one Iraq War veteran . The country 's highest honor .

@@5000741 @1GEORGE-STEPHANOPOULO@3 : @5OC@6 Okay , right now we 're going to move on now to a new twist in the case of that missing mother of five , Jennifer Dulos . Her estranged husband 's lawyer now claiming this could be a " Gone Girl " case , suggesting Dulos faked her own disappearance , but her family is firing back . Eva Pilgrim here with the details . Good morning , Eva . @1EVA-PILGRIM-ABC-NEW@3 : @5OC@6 Good morning , guys . It 's been more than a month since Jennifer Dulos vanished . Her estranged husband and his longtime girlfriend facing charges in her disappearance . And now his legal team is offering their own theory on what happened . @1EVA-PILGRIM-ABC-NEW@3 : @5VO@6 Overnight , a shocking new theory from the attorney of the estranged husband of missing Connecticut mom , Jennifer Dulos . The lawyer for Fotis Dulos telling ABC News they believe Jennifer might be responsible for her own disappearance , saying " We are actively investigating the possibility that this is a " Gone Girl " -type case and are considering the possibility that no third party was involved in foul play . " A @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ speaking exclusively to ABC News . @1CARRIE-LUFT-SPOKESP@3 : She is not , in any way , the sort of person who would vanish . This is not a woman who would ever , ever leave her children . @1EVA-PILGRIM-ABC-NEW@3 : @5VO@6 Fotis Dulos ' lawyer is now claiming that Jennifer , an accomplished writer , worked on a 500-page manuscript similar to the 2012 best-seller " Gone Girl , " where a woman in a troubled marriage fakes her own death in order to frame her husband . That book was later turned into a hit movie . @1KIM-DICKENS-GONE-G@3 : So , your wife has no friends here . Is she kind of standoffish , ivy league , rubs people the wrong way ? @1BEN-AFFLECK-GONE-G@3 : She 's from New York . She 's complicated . @1EVA-PILGRIM-ABC-NEW@3 : @5VO@6 Luft remembers the manuscript in question , saying it was written long before Jennifer was married and does n't resemble " Gone Girl " at all . @1CARRIE-LUFT-SPOKESP@3 : I think that drawing any comparison to a work of fiction does an incredible disservice to the family . This is not @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is our real life that someone we love is missing . @1EVA-PILGRIM-ABC-NEW@3 : @5VO@6 This case has garnered national attention . Jennifer disappeared after dropping her kids off at school on May 24th . A friend of Jennifer 's telling " The New York Post " this weekend that Jennifer was afraid for her life . The mother of five was locked in a bitter divorce and custody battle with her estranged husband . Authorities say they discovered blood stains in her garage and believe she was the victim of a serious physical assault . @1EVA-PILGRIM-ABC-NEW@3 : @5VO@6 Earlier this month , Fotis Dulos and his longtime live-in girlfriend , Michelle Troconis , were charged with tampering with or fabricating physical evidence and hindering prosecution . According to their arrest warrant , surveillance video from the night Jennifer went missing captured two people police suspect to be Fotis and Troconis tossing bags , including a blood-stained sponge , into trash cans across the city of Hartford . Both have pled not guilty and are out on bail . Dulos seen out jogging recently wearing his ankle bracelet . @1EVA-PILGRIM-ABC-NEW@3 : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , Fotis in August . As for the Dulos ' five kids , let 's not forget about them , they 're currently staying with Jennifer 's family . George . @1GEORGE-STEPHANOPOULO@3 : @5OC@6 Okay , Eva , thanks very much . Let 's bring in our Chief Legal Analyst Dan Abrams for more on this pretty audacious defense . @1DAN-ABRAMS-ABC-NEWS@3 : @5OC@6 Yeah , to - to basically make a - a great headline , yes , it does , to say it 's comparison to this movie , etcetera , but the problem for them is that you have this videotape . If they can link back him to 30 different locations in Hartford where they found blood-stained evidence , her blood on clothing , on sponges . They were also able to link back cell phone , his cell phone , to those areas . If they 're able to connect him and her to those 30 locations of dumping items and where her blood was found , then this does n't make any sense . @1GEORGE-STEPHANOPOULO@3 : @5OC@6 So , then - then how would you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ in public ? @1DAN-ABRAMS-ABC-NEWS@3 : @5OC@6 You know , look , my guess is they 're going to say that it 's not him on the video , right ? They 're going to say , " Yes , it looks like his car . Yes , his cell phone says he was in the area . Yes , it may appear to look something like him . But it was n't him who was dumping those items . " That 's - that 's my guess as - as to what they 're going to say . And then , suddenly they have a little more leeway here . The problem is that once we see this manuscript and it sounds like , you know , those who 've seen it are saying it has nothing to do with - with " Gone Girl , " then you 've got an even bigger problem for them . I mean , this is , as you point out , a very audacious effort . @1GEORGE-STEPHANOPOULO@3 : @5OC@6 Can you get a conviction on - on murder if the body is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ been many cases where there 's no body found and there 's a murder case brought . It makes it harder in any case to win a murder case without a - without a body , but it is certainly not impossible . You can still present all the evidence that the person has died , but that often becomes the defense is you ca n't even prove that the person is dead and that becomes something that the prosecution has to overcome . @1GEORGE-STEPHANOPOULO@3 : @5OC@6 Dan Abrams , thanks very much . @1DAN-ABRAMS-ABC-NEWS@3 : @5OC@6 Yep . @1GEORGE-STEPHANOPOULO@3 : @5OC@6 Michael .

@@5000841 @1STEVE-INSKEEP@2 : We are rapidly approaching public hearings , part of a House impeachment inquiry into President Trump . House leaders have indicated they want to move quickly . They are focused on the president 's effort to persuade Ukraine to investigate a political rival . The House Intelligence Committee wants to hear from a whistleblower who first called attention to the president 's phone call to the president of Ukraine . On " ABC News " yesterday , Committee Chairman Adam Schiff was asked how soon that could happen . @5SOUNDBITE-OF-TV-SHOW@7 @1ADAM-SCHIFF@2 : Very soon . I - you know , it will depend probably more on how quickly the director of national intelligence can complete the security clearance process for the whistleblower 's lawyers . But we are ready to hear from the whistleblower as soon as that is done . @1INSKEEP@2 : President Trump spent the weekend focused on impeachment . His personal Twitter account sent more than 80 messages denouncing his critics and sharing videos of his supporters . Republican Congressman Andy Harris of Maryland has been closely following all of this . He is co-chair of the Congressional Ukrainian Caucus . And he 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . Congressman , welcome to the program . @1ANDY-HARRIS@2 : It 's good to be with you , Steve . @1INSKEEP@2 : And thanks for joining us . Now , the president said over the weekend - among many , many other things - I deserve to meet my accuser , by which he seems to mean the whistleblower . Does he ? @1HARRIS@2 : Look . I think we 're going to have to find the whistleblower 's identity sooner or later . You know , the rumor is - and I think the inspector general hinted - that , you know , there could be political bias there . I think the American people need to know who it is and what potential motivations they might have had . @1INSKEEP@2 : Although it is very interesting - is n't it ? - even if there were some political bias on the part of the whistleblower , he makes these - or he or she makes these allegations , then we have to go check them out . And so far as I know , they have checked out @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ phone call , and now we have the rough transcript - the rough notes of the phone call . And it was accurately described , was n't it ? @1HARRIS@2 : Well , I think it depends . I mean , you know , if a quid pro quo - if the allegation was that there was a quid pro quo for Ukrainian aid , clearly that did n't occur on the phone call . The phone call really did n't focus on the Bidens . It really focused on investigation of CrowdStrike . So again , I urge the American people just , you know , read the transcripts for themselves because , again , the whistleblower may have - may have brought about the complaint from a biased viewpoint . That being said ... @1INSKEEP@2 : I just wonder - if I can , I mean , you 're talking about the details of this transcript . Let 's get back to the essence of this , though . The largest single thing in the transcript is the president , a number of times , saying he is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be investigated . Something horrible happened ; please talk to my personal lawyer . Tom Bossert , the president 's own former homeland security adviser has said , quote , " I 'm deeply disturbed by this phone call . " I just want to make sure that I 'm clear . I understand saying that there might be bias . I understand saying it 's not so bad . But are you taking the position that utterly nothing whatsoever was wrong with this phone call - that it was a perfect phone call , as the president has said ? @1HARRIS@2 : Look . Look . We 'll have to get to the bottom of that . But you know , Mr. Biden was only mentioned - the Bidens were mentioned once on Page 4 of the transcript . Again , I urge all your listeners look at the transcript themselves . A very , very small period of time was spent on the Bidens . And in fact , you know , there 's been linkage to the fact that the president said , you know , do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't say that about the Bidens . He said that about an investigation of CrowdStrike . So you know , we should just air everything out . I fully believe everything should be aired out . The American people will figure it out . I give them credit for that . @1INSKEEP@2 : But I am curious . I mean , people are listening to you right now , Congressman . And the question was - is anything at all inappropriate here ? Do you have an answer to that ? @1HARRIS@2 : Look . We do n't have all the information . I mean , the bottom line is that if , in fact , you know , the president had - if there was a quid pro quo , that would be wrong . I do n't see evidence of it now . I think we 're way too early in this to draw conclusions . @1INSKEEP@2 : Should any president of the United States be making official phone calls to other heads of state and be asking for an investigation of a political rival ? Is that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ if this - if this did n't involve Mr. Biden , who bragged about the fact that - that he got a prosecutor fired , I would - I would agree . But the bottom line is it did n't sound right to me when I heard that Mr. Biden did that . So we need to get to the bottom of that , as well . @1INSKEEP@2 : Well , let 's remember that Joe Biden did say that he got a prosecutor fired who was widely - not just by Biden - but widely considered to be ineffective against corruption . And the effort was to replace him with someone who was going to be more effective against corruption . It 's a bit mysterious as to why that is such a focus of the president of the United States , the current president . @1HARRIS@2 : And that 's exactly why the president has asked for more explanation . You know , the fact that Hunter Biden was receiving up to $50,000 a month for a job he was n't qualified to do from a - from @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this raises a lot of questions . Those should be answered , as well . And I honestly hope that Adam Schiff investigates those , as well , but I do n't think he will . @1INSKEEP@2 : Well , why do you think that the president was only focused on Hunter Biden or Joe Biden - that and - as well as this debunked conspiracy theory involving CrowdStrike ? Why do you think those were the things that occupied the president 's time of all the things he could ask the president of Ukraine about ? @1HARRIS@2 : Sure - because you have to remember that the previous impeachment allegation made against him was that somehow there was this collusion that went on in the 2016 elections . And you know , the Ukranians had come up ; this CrowdStrike had come up . I do n't know more specifics about it . So on the president 's mind , you know , this is related to the last impeachment inquiry du jour that the Democrats wanted , which was the Mueller investigation . @1INSKEEP@2 : OK . I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ someone who is co-chair of the Ukrainian Caucus , when you read the transcript of that phone call , was the president focusing on the most important issues that the president ought to be worried about in Ukraine ? @1HARRIS@2 : Look . I think - and again , urge your listeners to read for ( ph ) - read the transcript themselves . This was a congratulatory phone call . It was wide-ranging . It covered many issues . It included , you know , military issues . It included other issues . This - the Biden part was a very minor part . And those who understand how the president talks - and you know , he speaks his mind - this should n't be unusual . I think the American people appreciate him for speaking his mind , and I 'd urge the American people to make up their minds for themselves . Clearly , Speaker Pelosi and Adam Schiff have made up their mind ; Jerry Nadler made up his mind . I do n't think the American people are going to going to come down @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And as the co-chair of the Ukrainian Caucus , were you able to learn in the last few months why it was that the White House held up military aid to Ukraine for a number of months ? @1HARRIS@2 : We - we had n't . What we knew - we knew that Congress had passed the aid without question ( ph ) . We knew that there were - there were issues with corruption in the process - the procurement process in Ukraine , especially military procurement . And I agree with the president that , you know , our European allies should have - should have been participating to a greater extent , as well . And that - one of the ways this president does that is by , you know , again , holding up the aid to see if he can convince our European allies that they should play a bigger role , as well . And that ( unintelligible ) ... @1INSKEEP@2 : But I want to be certain about this , Congressman , because you just mentioned corruption . The president himself also @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ questioned . But our own David Welna has found a Pentagon document certifying that Ukraine had made substantial progress against corruption in recent months . This was not about corruption . What do you think it was about ? @1HARRIS@2 : Yeah . That 's why I say - the president , in the phone call - again , I urge your listeners , read the transcript - brought up the fact that I think he was disappointed that our European partners were not playing a bigger role in providing military aid to a country that is - you know , sits on the edge of their continent , not ours . @1INSKEEP@2 : Congressman Andy Harris , thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us while traveling around . I really appreciate it . @1HARRIS@2 : Thank you . National Public Radio , Inc.