Episode 8

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**Episode 8** is the eighth episode of the first season and the 8th overall episode of **Mindhunter**.

## Short Summary

Bill and Wendy interview candidates for a fourth member of the team. Holden is intrigued by complaints about a school principal's odd habit.

## Full Summary

A hand circles and underlines the words deviant, pyromania, arson, and torture in a text.

Holden speaks to Roger Wade, the principal of a school. He explains to Holden that he can't say the words he circled on the paper. He doesn't want the kids going home and having nightmares and parents complaining. He suggests that Holden show the kids his badge which they'll like.

Holden talks to the kids about his work without using the prohibited words. He starts to struggle when a child asks about her brother throwing rocks at their dog and he can't explain that that's not necessarily what he's talking about when he says being mean to animals is a sign to look out for. The children are starting to get bored, so he asks who wants to see his badge and they all raise their hands.

Roger thanks Holden for coming to talk to the children. As he leaves, Janet Ebner approaches him and says she's witnessed some disturbing behavior. She asks him to come to the staff room to talk about it.

Janet gives Holden coffee and says he has a thing for tickling. She clarifies that she means Roger Wade. He tickles the children on their feet when they go to his office for discipline. It's supposed to mitigate the punishment and then he gives them money. At the request of some parents, she contacted the police, but nothing came of it, so she would like Holden to look into it. He says it's not his area, because tickling isn't considered deviant behavior. He'd at least need to get Roger's version of it. She asks him to imagine one of the kids was his and asks if he'd be concerned about Roger Wade asking her to take off her socks and shoes. She asks him to make a call.

Holden is waiting on the steps. A car pulls up out front and Debbie gets out. Holden says he was worried and she says that her car is in the shop, so she had to wait for Patrick to give her a ride. Patrick is a classmate of hers.

Inside, Holden says the beer he got is no longer cold, so Debbie puts them in the freezer. He says he would have picked her up, but she says it's too far out of his way. Her car is in the shop for maintenance, which surprises Holden. She seized her engine because she forgot to put oil in it.

While Debbie bathes and Holden brushes his teeth, they talk about Roger Wade. She thinks it's creepy and disgusting. Holden says he seemed like a good guy and he's been good for the school. Holden doensn't know if the superintendent has spoken to Roger about his behavior. Debbie tells about her cousin, who had a teacher who would give her a sticker if she let him pinch her cheek. He did it for all the girls. It came out later that he was molesting some of them. He was never caught. She didn't find out until a high school reunion years later. Debbie says kids don't talk about stuff like that when they're little, because they always assume the adult is right, especially if that adult is an authority figure. Holden wonders how many girls the teacher molested and Debbie says he was a teacher for 40 years. There were whispers for years, but by that point, he was retired. Holden says it's escalating behavior. It's like they have a compulsion they can't control. Holden remembers that he has to go back to Oregon to talk to Brudos again. Holden tells Debbie to call him if she needs a ride home from school again.

Holden pulls up to the police station, shows his badge, and asks where he can find Detective Barr.

Holden talks to Barr, who thinks the women were just looking for a pot to stir. Holden says some parents were also concerned, but Barr says no one ever came forward. There's no victim, so he never looked any deeper. Barr says tickling kids isn't a crime. He explained it to Janet Ebner and can't believe he has to explain it to Holden, too. He can't arrest Roger unless Holden is going to start predicting what people do. Holden asks to see the report.

Holden shows the report to Bill, who isn't interested in looking at the case. Bill says they have applicants to look through already. Holden says he looked through his stack and they're all nos, too inexperienced. Bill reminds him that he was inexperienced when he started, too. And they mainly need someone to take over transcribing. Holden says none of the applicants bring anything to the table. Bill tells Holden to tell Wendy. Holden writes NO on a piece of paper and asks if that's sufficient. Holden offers to drive them to the airport, but Bill says he decided he's not going back to Oregon. He says Holden can do the interview alone if he wants. Holden tries to convince Bill to go, but Bill sticks to his guns. Holden says he'll show Brudos that one of them isn't a pussy.

**Salem, Oregon**

Holden enters the prison. He struggles with the tape recorder until Brudos comes in and takes it, saying he's pretty handy. He's one of the few inmates allowed in hobby shop. He can use scissors with supervision and other tools. He thinks the parole board should take that into account. He wraps a rubber band around the tape recorder to hold the door shut, turns it on, and says they're live. Holden tries to start, but Brudos asks where Bill is. He thinks he scared Bill off, but Holden just says they're doing some hiring at the office. Brudos says into the tape recorder that he misses Bill and asks him to come back. Then he laughs. Holden starts to ask Brudos about his second murder. He stopped to help the girl, took her home, and then she took interest in his photography. He took photos of her and then she decided to walk home. That's the last anyone saw of her. She was found in a river tied to a transmission that was tracked back to a car he owned. Brudos asks Holden for cigarettes, which Holden gives him. Holden asks if the transmission was part of the police plan and Brudos says it was and so were the photos. He has his own theory about who killed the girls. Brudos says the killer sensed they were getting close, so he left to go kill somewhere else and they needed someone to blame, so they picked him to be their fall guy. Holden says it's a pretty big coincidence that he met a few of the girls who became victims and Brudos agrees. Holden then asks if he thinks the killer planned his attacks. Brudos says maybe the first one fell into his lap and then he got a taste for it. Brudos notes that there were no photos of the first girl, but he was prepared with the other three. Holden asks if he fantasized about killing girls before the first murder and Brudos says he definitely did. Holden asks what he fantasized about and Brudos says all the stuff they said he did. The murders were just extensions of the thoughts he'd been having for a long time. Brudos says he'd have to think about it for a long time to go through with it. He'd have to be driven. Maybe his real life was out of control, but his fantasy life was where he could feel powerful. Holden asks why the killer would kill the girls from behind as he did. Brudos says he didn't want them looking at him. Maybe it wasn't about watching them die, because they weren't tortured. It might have just been about having them quiet so he could play with them. There are photos of them in different positions and they were all raped. But he played with some of them before they died, too. One was photographed in lingerie that wasn't hers. Brudos says she must have liked that. Holden says she was kidnapped from a parking garage. Brudos asks how Holden knows she was kidnapped. She may have gone willingly. All the women he meets want to be models. She may have gone willingly, thinking it was just about photos. She may have gotten a feeling at some point that something more was happening, so she played along. The killer may have enjoyed that, thinking that's what you get when you want people to look at you. Holden asks if the killer thought it was exciting to get some of that control back into his life. Brudos says that probably made him want more after he got a taste. Holden says they all have fantasies. He can remember his first fantasy about girls. He asks Brudos what his first fantasy was. He says he was nine or ten. He trapped a woman in a tunnel. He made her do things, non-sexually. She begged for mercy. Holden asks if he still has fantasies and he says he doesn't. He tells Holden to tell the parole board that.

Jim Barney talks to Bill and Wendy about a case he worked on where he used some psychology to help them get a conviction. Holden comes in and sits down. Bill and Wendy stand up to say goodbye and thank him for coming up from Georgia. Jim says he heard they're doing something big there and he couldn't wait to see it for himself. Wendy hopes they lived up to the hype and he says they surpassed it. Bill says they have to meet a few more people, but they'll let him know soon. He says he'd love to join the team and Bill says they'd love to have him. Once he's gone, Holden notes that Jim is black. Bill says he's the best candidate, so they should hire him. Wendy says their list of potential subjects is almost exclusively white and likely racist. He could incite a response that affects their study. Bill knows that means no. He says not to put that on his assessment because they can't be seen as racists. Holden says he thought their newbies would be transcribing. Wendy asks if Brudos behaved and Holden says he was almost pleasant. Repeat visits seem important. Wendy says the new team member will train with transcription, but they're looking for someone with operations experience so they can expand the interviews. Holden says that'll be good if Bill keeps wussing out. Holden asks how many people they saw and she says she didn't think he was interested in the process, holding up the sign Holden made that just says no. Just then, Shepard comes in with Gregg Smith, one of their candidates. He says Gregg is a talented agent. He and Gregg's father were pre-law together at Dartmouth. He asks them to give Gregg a good shake.

Gregg tells a story in which he was nearly shot, but his partner saved his life. He says the other guys call him "The Padre" and come to confession at his desk. His mother is Catholic and his father is Quaker. His family jokes that they'll never run out of guilt or oats. Wendy asks if he's religious and he says yes, ma'am. She corrects that she's Dr. Carr. As a child, he leaned toward the drama of the Church. He's Christian now, as is his wife. She's Catholic and they have two daughters. He starts to say they're trying to take it slow with the big family thing, but Wendy asks him about how he feels about good and evil, right and wrong. He believes in those concepts. She says binary thinking could hamstring him when it comes to critical assessment of their subjects. They need to understand the gray areas. Gregg says he understands that the world is complex and he'll checks his judgment at the door. From the next table, Holden says the people they work with have done things he doesn't even want to imagine. Gregg says he's read some of their cases, but Holden says it's one thing to read the cases and another to sit three feet away from a guy who's happy to tell you how hard it was to stick his dick in his mother's neck after sawing off her head. Bill asks what made him apply for the study. He says his daughters. When he hears about girls disappearing, he wants to make the world a safer place.

Bill says Gregg is smart, a family guy, and knows what's at stake. Holden thinks he's a mole for Shepard. He thinks Shepard is trying to make sure they're not smearing the good name of the FBI. Wendy says they need Shepard. Bill says his heart is in the right place. Wendy suggests a trial period.

Wendy pours herself a glass of wine and empties the bottle into her glass. She grabs a can of tuna that's already open and takes both downstairs. She leaves the tuna and goes back upstairs.

Gregg listens to a recorded interview while Holden and Bill watch him. Holden's checking to see what he can handle. Bill asks what he's listening to and Holden tells him it's Bittaker and Norris. Bill asks if he's trying to get rid of Gregg. Holden doesn't answer and instead talks to Bill about Roger Wade. The school board is asking them to look into it. Bill isn't convinced it's worth their time, but Holden asks what the point is of their work if they never apply it to anything. Bill says they're trying to prevent women from getting pulled into vans and cut into pieces, not crucifying someone who hasn't done anything. Holden says yet. Their goal is to be preemptive. Bill says that's not their goal yet. Gregg takes off the headphones and turns off the tape. Holden asks him if he still wants the job.

Roger tells Holden and Gregg that the children don't complain. He wants the children to know they're a community. Since he started at the school, test scores have gone up, not because he's a strict disciplinarian or he piles on homework. It's because he applies a personal touch. The children matter to him. They have special games, sports, art project. He's teaching happiness. Holden asks why he needs to tickle. Roger says they have a six year old who said he sprained his ankle playing kickball and didn't want to go back to class. The nurse called Roger in because the ankle wasn't swollen, but he still said it hurt. Roger didn't want to call him a liar, so he wiggled the child's big toe. The child smiled and said it tickled. So he tickled the child's feet and pretty soon, he was ready to go back to class. He gave the child a nickel so the next time he went to the store he could get himself a treat. He says Holden is blowing it out of proportion.

In the hallway, Holden tells Gregg they need to work on his interview technique. He shouldn't team up. He asks if Gregg found the tickling stuff weird. Gregg says his kids love it. Holden says maybe it's just tickling, but if there is a sexual angle, he'd be good at hiding it. When Kemper went in for his last psychiatric evaluation, he had the head of a 15-year-old in the trunk of his car. It gave him a thrill to persuade the committee that he was over his psychological problems knowing that he had a trophy outside. Gregg says that's kind of extreme, but Holden says it gives him the idea. They're waved into the room to talk to another teacher.

Mary Clark is glad that Janet finally did something. She always thought the tickling was bizarre herself and then parents started coming to her asking why their children had pocket change. She's been at the school for two years, but it's been happening longer than that. Holden asks why parents are going to her instead of to Roger. She says he brushes him off and is unapologetic. He's a big deal around there. She agreed to meet with them to share her thoughts, but she hopes it doesn't get back to her. It's a small school. Everyone seems to know about the tickling. They ask her how the children respond to the tickling and she says they endure it. They know they're going to get paid at the end. Students come back from his office showing off their reward. Gregg asks what she thought of Roger when she first started, before she knew about the tickling. She says she thought Roger was smug. She transferred because she heard how great the school is, but that's all he talks about. He likes to toot his own horn. The teachers are supposed to be his cheerleaders, but she's always been uncomfortable with how he handles children. He's always fussing over them, touching them. Holden asks for a list of parents and teachers who feel the same way as her. She says she's not vindictive. She doesn't want a witch hunt. She just wishes he'd listen.

Gregg and Holden talk to Cheryl Todd, who says the kids love Roger. When he visits, she knows the day will be easier. He can change the mood of the room by walking in. She knows about the tickling and says when kids come back to her room from his office, they seem happy. She thinks it's wonderful. He turns punishment into play. He makes it a positive experience. The parents she's talked to about it are thrilled. She also says Janet Ebner is a busybody and Mary Clark is a crab. Holden ends the interview with that.

Lily Mullen tells the story of her son, Jason, coming home with a blue tongue. She asked him about it and he said he and his friend had walked down to the store without permission and bought pop rocks. Mike Mullen doesn't seem as concerned about it, but Lily says they're discussing how much freedom he should be allowed to have. Jason was evasive when she asked him where he got the money, but eventually she learned that Mr. Wade had given it to him. He and his friend Steve were fighting on the playground and they were sent to the office. He tickled them and then gave them money. Lily and Mike sat down with Roger and talked to him about it. He made it sound like they were perverts for asking. They asked him to stop and he said, "My covenant is not with you. It's with your son." Holden and Gregg agree the situation is odd. They've talked about suing, but they're not sure if they should. They ask Holden and Gregg for suggestions.

In the car, Holden and Gregg say it's the third set of parents who were concerned about it. They think the parents should have a say in it. Gregg wonders if it is actually a problem, because the kids don't seem bothered by it. Holden says that's only until someone does. Brudos kept his urges in until something triggered him. Then everything escalated. He wonders what would happen if a child resisted. There's a correlation. He doesn't believe Roger can stop himself and giving the children money gives them incentive to go to his office. People have already asked him to stop and he hasn't. Gregg says they should tell him because they're the FBI. Holden turns the car around and goes back to the school.

Holden and Gregg ask to talk to Roger privately. They advise him to stop touching the children, saying it'll satisfy everyone. Roger is angry with them for making him sound like a stranger in a raincoat. They tell him they're there at the request of the superintendent, but Roger doesn't believe that. He says he's been a principal for 15 years with nothing on his record until this. He's angry with them for accusing him of being inappropriate. Holden reminds him of when he came to give his speech and Roger made him edit it because he worried how it would affect the teachers and students. He did that. Now Holden is advising him to hear the concerns of others. Roger tells him his work has made him paranoid and goes to leave.

Gregg wonders if they did the right thing. Holden doesn't answer him.

Holden gets buzzed into Debbie's building and she comes out of her apartment to see him. She asks if he's okay. She tells him she's studying and really needs to get back to it when he asks to come in. He walks past her into the apartment and she says he really had to leave her alone. He promises that he will.

Holden sits and drinks a beer while Debbie studies. He then goes to read the newspaper. He asks her what she's reading and she shows him the cover of her book. He asks her more about it, but she says she really had to finish what she's doing. He says describing what she's doing can help her work, so she gives in and tells him what her work is about. Holden then starts talking about Roger. Debbie thinks that's different from her work and reminds him that she really needs to get back to her work. She invites him to join her for a thing they're doing which involves blacking out a room so people can interact without being able to see each other. Her partner is making a questionnaire to ask people about their experiences. Holden asks her about the partner and she says it's Patrick. Holden's uneasy about it.

Holden enters the office and Bill says Shepard wants to see him about his field trip. Holden wonders how Shepard knows about it.

Holden goes to Shepard's office and sees Gregg sitting in there.

Holden defends his actions, saying the superintendent asked him to step in. Shepard's still upset. Holden says he's just trying to see if the stuff they see in interviews can be applied to real-life situations. Shepard says the FBI doesn't get involved until a crime has been committed and it has risen to their level. Holden reminds him that they've helped local law enforcement solve two murders. Holden says he only spent one day on Roger Wade. He was worried about children and had to follow his intuition. His intuition is what started the whole project. Shepard is still angry with him, saying a crime has not been committed. He then tells Gregg that the last thing he should follow is Holden's intuition.

Holden goes back downstairs and tells Bill that Shepard had his ass. Bill reminds Holden that he started it. Wendy says they want Holden to ask them before he goes something like that again because his behavior reflects on them. They can't use their study to start personal campaigns. He asks if that's what they think he's doing and Wendy says she doesn't know. She can't imagine why he'd go after a respected school principal with no history of abuse. Holden says she wasn't there and even Gregg saw something wrong. Wendy says it's an incorrect application of the concepts she's trying to teach them. Bill backs Wendy up. Holden asks what Bill would do if some guy were tickling Brian's feet, a guy in power. Bill tells him not to bring his family into it. Holden continues the line of questioning and Bill admits he'd tell the principal to get his hands off his kid, just as he's telling Holden to stop using Brian as an excuse for his unprofessional behavior.

Holden goes to Debbie's school and sees Patrick's car out front. He follows the signs to the room and goes inside. There's conversation in the room. Holden walks around. When the door is opened again, he sees Patrick leaning over Debbie, who is leaning against a table. He leaves quickly and Debbie goes to follow him. She follows him out to the stairs, where she watches him go.

Holden goes to work. The phone is ringing, so he answers it. It's Dan Cobb with the VEA. He tells Holden the school board is meeting to make a decision on Roger Wade. They're thinking of letting him go. They want to know if that would be in line with his recommendation. He says he can't make a recommendation. Dan says they've been going in circles about it. Holden says he's troubled by the fact that Roger seems to have developed a compulsion that he's justifying as a choice. He can't say that Roger's behavior won't escalate to something more serious. Dan says they should be erring on the side of caution and Holden says he understands.

## Cast

* Holden Ford
* Bill Tench
* Debbie Mitford
* Wendy Carr
* Robert Shepard
* Gregg Smith
* Jerry Brudos
* Roger Wade
* Janet Ebner
* Jim Barney
* Detective Barr
* Mary Clark
* Cheryl Todd
* Lily Mullen
* Mike Mullen (right)
* Patrick
* Girl #1
* Girl #2
* Uniformed Officer
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### Main Cast

* Jonathan Groff as Holden Ford
* Holt McCallany as Bill Tench
* Hannah Gross as Debbie Mitford
* Anna Torv as Wendy Carr
* Cotter Smith as Unit Chief Shepard

### Also Starring

* Joe Tuttle as Gregg Smith
* Happy Anderson as Jerry Brudos
* Marc Kudisch as Roger Wade
* Suzanne Hevner as Janet Ebner
* Albert Jones as Agent Jim Barney
* Todd Faulkner as Detective Barr
* Hayden Saunier as Mary Clark
* Grace Rex as Cheryl Todd
* Sarah Wilson as Lily Mullen
* Eric Morris as Mike Mullen
* Joshua Wills as Patrick

### Other Cast

* Lindsey Shurmatz as Girl #1
* Lindsay Hall as Girl #2
* James Matthew Poole as Uniformed Officer

## Music

 "Weird Thing"
 "I Wouldn't Want to Be Like You"