Church and State: The Prophetic Vernon Howell

## Episode Guide

**"Church and State: The Prophetic Vernon Howell"** is the second episode of *Revelations of Waco*. It aired on January 31, 2018 alongside "The Strangers Across the Street".

## Overview

The second episode of *Revelations of WACO* explores the transformation of Vernon Howell into David Koresh, plus the evolution of the Branch Davidians.

## Appearances

* James Tabor, Professor of Religious Studies at University of North Carolina at Charlotte
* Catherine Wessinger, Professor of Religious Studies at Loyola University, New Orleans
* Dr. J Philip Arnold, Religious Scholar
* Clive Doyle, Waco Survivor
* David Thibodeau, Waco Survivor
* John Risenhoover, Former ATF Agent

## Recap

*This section is a detailed recap of this episode. **There are major spoilers.** Click to expand.*

**James Tabor:** If there's a conflict between the government and any religion, you've got to approach the group from the standpoint of, what is their internal worldview. What is motivating them? Waco just went all wrong in that regard. The term, Branch Davidians actually goes back way before David Koresh who brought all of this to the public view. There was a profit or leader, Victor Houteff. He broke with his Adventist brethren, and started his own independent movement, and he called it the Branch Davidians.

**Catherine Wassinger:** He left Los Angeles, came to Waco, and he bought some land, and he called it Mount Carmel. So, by 1935, you had a Davidian community in Waco.

**James Tabor:** He believed that he was being called with special understanding and interpretation of the mysteries of the Bible, particularly the prophecies.

**Dr. J Philip Arnold:** So the Branch Davidians sort of specialized in those portions of the Bible that deal in the end times. For example, the Book of Revelation. The idea being that these prophecies are hidden until the time of the end, when they will then be revealed when the right prophet comes along.

**Catherine Wassinger:** And then in 1981, a young man named Vernon Howell, who later changed his name to David Koresh, came to Mount Carmel. And the Branch Davidians identified him as a prophet, divinely inspired to interpret the Bible's prophecies about the end time.

**Narrator:** *George Roden, who at the time was the leader of the cult, claimed he too was the Messiah.*

**Clive Doyle:** George got really upset because he figured some young upstart was taking his place. What George never understood was, the prophetic office was never a hereditary thing. It was whoever God picks.

**Narrator:** *So, to decide who should lead the cult, George Roden challenged Vernon to a grisly competition.*

**Catherine Wassinger:** George Roden dug up the body of a woman who had been buried out at Mount Carmel, and he challenged Vernon to a duel to see which one could raise her from the dead.

**Clive Doyle:** David didn't take him up on the challenge. Instead he went down to Waco and went to the Sheriff's Department and says, maybe you ought to look into it.

**Narrator:** *Finally, Vernon had had enough. With eight armed followers, he stormed Mount Carmel to take control. George suffered a flesh wound. Vernon Howell and his raiding party were charged with attempted murder. All were later acquitted.*

**Catherine Wassinger:** And then George Roden went on later to murder a man. So he seems to have been pretty crazy.

**Narrator:** *Vernon was now king of Mount Carmel.*

**Catherine Wassinger:** But then Vernon Howell and his wife Rachel went to Israel, and he had some sort of experience there, where he experienced himself as being the Christ for the end time. And he changed his name to David Koresh.

**Dr. J Philip Arnold:** David believed that he had that Christ spirit that would let him unseal the Book of Revelation, and be able to explain the Seven Seals.

**James Tabor:** So he had this sort of scriptural logic, where you go through these texts, and you lock people in to this interpretation. In this case, that there's another Messiah, the Lamb of God.

**Catherine Wassinger:** And the Book of Revelation says that only the Lamb will be able to open the Seven Seals. And, since David Koresh had interpreted the Seven Seals, he concluded that therefore he must be Christ, the Lamb. The biggest controversy, of course, was David's sexual relations with underage girls.

**James Tabor:** He had declared that the end was so near, that the apostle Paul's words should be taken literally. In first Corinthians Seven, he said, "Let those who have wives be as though they have none." Which means, all marriages become separated, and people live a celibate life. But, with that, David said, "I will choose seven of these women to be my wives." He already had one wife. "And these seven will bear 24 special children."

**David Thibodeau:** David being David and claiming that he could reveal the Seven Seals. And that first Seal talks about the marriage of the Lamb, the marriage of he who brings the message. So, you know, David obviously thought that he was to have children in the world for this kingdom to be set up.

**Catherine Wassinger:** At that time in Texas it was legal for a girl of 14 to get married with permission of her parents. And so Rachel, his legal wife, she was 14 when they married. But one of his additional wives was Rachel's younger sister who at that time was 12, and one girl testified that he had sexual contact with her when she was ten.

**James Tabor:** They clearly were underage. This would be statutory rape under the laws of any state, certainly Texas. So, this is a criminal act, I mean, you go to jail for this, you're in big trouble.

**David Thibodeau:** A lot of people left and fought against it, and the other people stayed and embraced it, whether they liked it or not.

**Dr. J Philip Arnold:** To the non-Davidian, to the outside observer, it appears unusual that David would have his community collect guns. But David had his interpretation of these prophecies. And these prophecies show that in the very end times, the true people of God would be surrounded by what he called the Babylonians. Who would oppose the message of the Seven Seals.

**James Tabor:** He actually expected that to happen in Israel. That's one of the reasons they're doing the weapon training and so forth. They plan to fight with the Israelis in some final battle of Armageddon in the Middle East.

**John Risenhoover:** We didn't have that context in ATF. We honestly thought this was a large scale suicide cult. I think that day, hindsight being what it is, without a doubt, we should have walked away.

**James Tabor:** And suddenly they're confronted with this raid on February 28th, and so they're scrambling to try to come to an understanding of how does this fit into their beliefs.

## Quotes

**David Koresh:** Well, when Christ comes again, what's he gonna bring?
**Congregation:** The book.
**David Koresh:** And he's gonna reveal what?
**Congregation:** The Seven Seals.
**David Koresh:** Which is a judgment of who?
**Congregation:** Of God.

**Vernon Howell:** But I will say this much; I will say that not one of you are living up to the lives the testimonies, not one in this room. And we're going to find this by our own foundation, Revelation chapter ten says--

**David Koresh:** Revelation states that Christ has the Key of David. Only he can open and none can shut. And there's a 150 Psalms here, some people find it amazing that I know every one of 'em.

**David Koresh:** There's a revelation of Jesus Christ to be dealt with here We don't need the revelation of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, we already have that!

**David Koresh:** Well these children that I have are for a reason, and unless we really have the ear and the eyes to open ourselves up to be able to read, really read the Scriptures, the explanation would seem almost foolish.

**David Koresh:** We're under fire. 2000 years ago someone came, raising the dead, feeding the hungry, and healing the sick. Where did he end up at?
**Congregation:** On the cross
**David Koresh:** The dead.

**David Koresh:** A lot of people say, he's got guns that makes him bad, that makes him a cult. Did King David have swords? Did Jesus tell the Apostles to carry a sword with you? Yes.