Episode 164 - This Is the Mutant Revolution: Live at Rose City Comic Con

## Episode Description

In which Jay and Miles finally sit down for an in-depth discussion of the political weight of superheroes and what the X-Men mean to us in America’s current political climate.

## Transcript

(Unedited auto-transcript)

So Jay Stevie Hunter is in Congress now.

Hell yes she is.

And that got me thinking.

We don't see a lot of X-Men

going to US politics, do we?

You know it's really difficult to win over

an electorate that hates and fears you.

Yeah, but it seems weird.

I mean, it's such a political book.

You mean like the metaphors. And no.

I mean, the amount of time they spend on

actual legislation and political procedure.

It seems bizarre that the X-Men haven't

made more direct attempts to get involved,

they have just not so much in the 616.

But in other universes.

Well sure. I mean how few X men

have even ended up president.

I remember Kitty Pryde and X-Men the end,

but who else Dazzler?

OK, I can see that Cyclops briefly. I mean,

he got assassinated almost immediately.

OK, but I'm surprised that Professor

X didn't make the list, so he did.

He's actually his president

in the ruins timeline.

Well, that sounds ominous.

More analysis so.

Why So what is an Xavier

presidency look like?

Well,

he moved the capital from DC to Westchester.

Interesting choice and he

forcibly incarcerated any mutant

with dangerous powers, what?

I'm Jay Edidin and I'm Miles Stokes

and we are here to explain the X-Men

because it's about time someone did.

Oh wow. Welcome to episode 164 of

Jay and Miles explain the X-Men.

We walk you through the ins,

the outs and the retcons of

comics greatest superhero

soap opera, and welcome to all the

folks who are here live at Rose City

Comic Con 2017 in Portland, OR.

Now yes, yes yeah, give yourself.

You're so cool. We're doing politics.

Was it? Please applaud, is that?

Please clap that was it.

Oh we should have made a

sign that would have been.

We have signs. Actually we have.

We haven't revolution signs from

last night because we have decided

we decided that this year what we

were doing and what this episode is.

This is we are here for the mutant

revolution. It seemed timely.

Yeah yeah. So so we should say so.

This will be recorded.

You will all.

That's a different microphone

shouldn't punch it so you want.

And I'm trying to do the pulling back thing.

I always forget 'cause we have to be like.

Right up in our mikes when we're recording

most of the time and these aren't like that.

So confusing,

but so many people will be hearing this.

Filter, while many people will

be hearing this later recorded.

So if you're listening to it in the future,

we're here in a room with a

bunch of awesome listeners.

And if you could have been one of them,

I'm sure you would have.

But we understand that that wasn't possible.

That's OK.

Next time though, you should totally do it,

and for all the people who are here now

to your future selves the weekends.

You're still rad, yes,

alright so.

For those of you familiar with the show,

this is going to be a slightly

different episode.

We're gonna talk a little bit about

why so those of you unfamiliar we.

Don't talk politics a lot on the podcast.

We're very frank about where we fall

on the political spectrum and we

talk a bit about how the stories we

cover might have read or come out

of or been related to the politics

of the times when they were written.

But we don't do a lot with regards

to current politics.

We've made occasional exceptions,

but for the most part we try to

stay very much within our lane in

terms of we discuss the X-Men,

we discuss specific areas of the Exxon,

usually in roughly chronological order.

We discussed those in larger context,

but yeah,

we're pretty pretty into staying on topic.

That said. It is 2017.

It is a year when I think.

Given current events in general,

and especially certain intersections of

current events and comics publishing,

it is not only impossible,

but patently irresponsible not to

address and to occupy those intersections.

So this is going to be the Jay and

miles talk about current politics and

how that relates to the X-Men episode.

Yeah,

and occasionally we get a listener saying,

like, you know,

I just I come to comics for escapism,

and let's just talk about the plots

and the characters and stuff.

But dude. It's freaking X-Men.

I got a very angry email from

someone who is like can't you

leave politics out of X men?

No,

this is a shout out to that

person is me officially making

fun of you on the podcast.

But no, sorry, but here's the thing

and I want to talk about this

because I feel really strongly

that a art is inherently political.

This is, I wrote my thesis on this.

But that that art that anything that

is published for popular consumption,

that is part of a larger cultural

conversation, can't exist in a vacuum.

It's influenced by the time it's

created is influenced by the culture

that's created and it's for an

audience and the conversation starts

and the way it interacts with those

conversations cannot be apolitical,

and I think that's particularly

true of superhero comics.

An I want to talk about that case.

There are two Givens that

we're working from here.

In this episode.

One is that superhero comics

are inherently political.

And specifically that the nature and

premise of superhero comics conveys a

degree of political responsibility.

So there are a couple of reasons for this.

First and foremost is their

ubiquity and symbol status.

If you grab a random person on the street,

they are far more likely to be able

to tell you Batman's origin story

then the names of their City Council

representatives and some of that is

speaks to current political awareness,

but more speaks to the fact that

Batman's been around longer and Batman's

been part of the cultural narrative longer.

And that's true of superheroes in general.

They are symbols as well as characters.

The other point,

and this is when I want to credit to G

Willow Wilson that she commented on,

which I think is an incredibly

important point is that.

Superhero comics are among the

only media that explicitly label

characters as Heroes or villains.

And.

Saying this is a hero,

this is what the term hero represents.

Gives or a villain gives those

representations a lot more cultural

weight than they would have otherwise,

and it means that when you're editing

or writing or producing those things.

You need to be sitting and thinking

about what those words mean and

what they mean in your current

political and cultural climate,

and even given that all being

the case X-Men specifically,

X-Men is extra political.

I mean it didn't start out that way.

To be fair,

Stanley just got tired of thinking

up portions for people.

Yes,

I know you can make a pretty strong

case for early X-Men being a pretty

direct metaphor or speaking pretty

directly to Jewish immigrant experiences.

And I'm talking even,

but even before the plus,

just the very conception of the premise,

no, I know I'm talking about

the really early stuff and.

Even yeah,

this is.

This is something I feel like

this is one of those curfew stick

is not at this panel,

but if you go find him and ask

him about this he will tell you a

lot more than I can about it and

it'll be really interesting.

It's fascinating stuff,

but yeah,

I mean the X-Men mutants

have always stood in for

oppressed minorities.

And what that's meant over the years,

that's really changed.

I mean, I think civil rights

was probably by far the most

commonly seen allegory at first,

at the same time the X-Men more than

maybe any other Marvel character,

save for Captain America,

are defined by their relationship

to dominant systems of power.

They are working in or out of systems.

They are the characters who. Again,

who had that representation but who also?

Are in Congress testifying a lot

in the comics in the movies,

who are the subjects of active

legislation at a time when not a

lot of other comics characters are

and who interact really seriously

with contemporary politics.

I'd honestly I'd say other

than Captain America,

they're probably the most

blatantly political characters.

Yeah, I mean, it was just.

It was just recently in X-Men Gold

when we saw the Mutant Deportation Act,

which is like directly relevant

to stuff going on right now.

I think one of the more explicit

examples of that,

certainly even more than like

the Moon Registration Act from

the 80s or anything like that.

Yeah,

and.

The other thing that I think makes

the X-Men important as a political

locus in comics is something we've

talked a lot about on the podcast,

and I think that a lot of the

people we've talked to who listened

to the podcast can speak to,

which is that it's a comic that

attracts a lot of readers who are

coming from marginalized groups.

That a disproportionate number of

folks who are \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\* X-Men fans

are \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\* X-Men fans because they

identify with alienation and marginalization.

X-Men is a comic that has always had

very high concentrations of queer

readers of leaders of color of female

readers in a time when comics were

very actively unfriendly to female readers,

and there were reasons for that,

and they haven't always had

representation that reflected that,

and they haven't always,

I think, earned that,

but the centrality of.

That metaphor of what they mean

and what they represent in their

larger universe is something that's

that's made them a gathering

point for readers who I think are

disproportionately likely to be

affected by by contemporary politics.

And it's actually really cool if

you look at the letters columns

from Old X-Men comics from the 70s

and 80s like that was evident even

even back then like that was just

right out there in a way that it

certainly was for other comics,

but I think not as much don't

have any scientific data there.

But you know,

just I would actually love to

go through a number crunch.

Some of those letter columns I feel

like so much better grounding in

statistical analysis then then I

would need to be involved in that,

but I would I would love.

To see folks take those apart,

and in those ways that would be fascinating.

So I mean,

there are so many ways to talk

about X-Men politics.

So Jay, where do we want to start?

Gosh, OK. So what did we write down?

So I talked about the question of

representation and I want to come to

that because how many of you have

recently heard phrases like keep identity

politics out of fill in the blank?

Alright, or or you know keep politics

out of comics or how come they're

changing all the comics to make

them more politically correct?

What happened to all of our white dudes?

There are like barely any left.

I know it's only four out of

every five characters,

not five out of every six.

So first of all,

I'd like to say that the phrase

politically correct is \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*.

I would encourage you to replace

it if you ever are considering

using it in a conversation.

I would. I would recommend

replacing it in your mind with.

Not being an \*\*\*\*\*\*\*.

Because politically correct.

First of all, as a concept,

it was originally a positive thing.

And yeah, the idea is to.

Like there are basic,

fairly straightforward,

fairly low impact ways that you can

avoid being unnecessarily cruel.

Isn't that nice?

Why would you not do that like that's great?

That's like saying, oh, they're so,

so so safe drive they drive so safely.

God, they never swerve into oncoming traffic.

The horror.

But yeah, in terms of identity in comics,

so we've used the term paper mirrors before

and you probably try that better than I can.

So paper mirror is a phrase that stolen.

I think the original use was

as the term celluloid mirror,

and I think that it was a comfort

to come from the celluloid closet.

Or does it come from a different credit?

I have no idea.

I don't either.

I'm sorry, this is irresponsible sourcing.

But when we say paper mirrors,

we're talking about finding reflections

of ourselves or of our experiences.

In books and comics in print representation,

this paper and most of those paper

mirrors are going to be partially

going to find someone who speaks to a

very specific aspect of who you are.

And.

What you can find and how specific

the representation you can find is

going to spend a lot on who you are,

what you're looking for,

and how directly your identity

in the parts of your identity

you want to see reflected.

Reflect the dominant paradigm.

If you are a straight white dude who

is conventionally attractive and

Protestant but not ultra observant.

And from the United States and

middle to middle class to wealthy.

You have a wealth of options

you can say I want this.

I like this character because this

character has exactly my haircut and

exactly my taste in French fries.

And like you can,

you can get down to the details.

If you are not that person.

You sort of find things where

you can and you find metaphors,

and that's the place,

I think where a lot of us come to the X men.

Because maybe we can't find a

character who is visibly disabled

in the ways that we are,

but there's Nightcrawler.

That's actually one of the earliest

letters in Chris Claremont's run.

I remember this one.

Yes,

from a woman who who has physical

disabilities that involve,

among other things,

fewer and some merged fingers on her hands.

And talking about what it means to

see a character named Nightcrawler

who's not only.

In the book and Central in the

book Invisible in the book.

But in the book and central

Invisible as part of something.

And who's differences?

Affect him that he's not in a

perfect world that he has to

face that stuff but

has allies on his side who

were talking about it and just

actually seeing that and you see,

you see some of that early on in X-Men

two it degree Cyclops with his you know

having to have his glasses and stuff.

You see Angel having to hide his

wings but at the same time to agree

it's like come on Crimea River.

You can do awesome things that

you have to hide.

Yeah also you are like otherwise,

the Wasps, Wasps,

whoever Wasps and that's one

awesome thing about the all new all

different era that started in the

70s is you start seeing characters.

With actual diversity in addition

to the metaphorical diversity,

now it was really just baby

steps at that point,

but still credit where credit is due.

I mean,

how many other like black female superheroes

worth their time other than storm?

Trying to think of this and I'm trying

to remember when Misty Knight came in.

She was later.

I think so.

This was like 74 well and you see,

this is the sort of thing

where if we were late 7th work

delayed some of these early 80s.

If we were recording we just pause it,

look it up and then come

back like we already knew it.

But you're here for the messy

stuff here for the mess up,

but you're also here for the

what we're talking about.

X-Men is the framing of

what we're talking about,

but this stuff is bigger, so yeah, so.

And the metaphor has pros and

cons of positive point of it,

and one of the things is an important

positive point is that when you

have characters who are largely,

metaphorically representative.

More of us can look at them and say,

Oh yeah, that reflects part of my experience.

There's a wider range for us

to read ourselves into them.

You can.

You can see this in terms of visual

representation.

There's Scott McCloud Understanding

Comics thing we talked about with cartoon.

Your face is the more people will

see it as representing them.

On the other hand,

when the specific experiences the

specific real-world experiences that are

represented only belong to one group,

and it's a culturally dominant

and culturally privileged group.

Metaphors aren't an adequate substitution

for that direct representation,

so there's that so so X-Men end

up in a weird place where they

are a very politically engaged.

It's a very politically engaged comic.

It's a very both,

both metaphorically and literally,

just in terms of the ways characters

interact with political structures.

But at the same time it represents

an address is very few actual

real life things on that front,

because mutant always takes front

and center like there's a mutant.

You know there's a mutant deportation act,

but no one is addressing the

fact that as far as I know,

like multiple students at the Xavier

School or undocumented immigrants.

I really hope they do.

They totally could.

It would be great.

Yeah, it would be really nice to see

you see some of that occasionally.

Greg Pox Storm Run did a great job with that.

Oh yeah, if you haven't read that,

run freaking phenomenal.

I wish that series was still going on.

It's so good, so good and Iceman is

is is going there to some extent,

but it's been something

that's largely missing and.

It's been something that's largely

missing at a time when Marvel is

publishing a book about Captain

America being a secret Nazi.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, the story is basically over,

which is great, but that was handled,

perhaps poorly.

That was that that goes back for me.

You know, talking about the.

Social responsibility of being of

being an entity that labels things

as heroes and villains and is dealing

with those icons and that you're not

doing that in a political and social vacuum.

And especially with X-Men,

I think how that plays out.

You know.

X-Men fans are notoriously among the

least forgiving in comics fandom,

and I think some of that is because you

and we tend to be among the most invested,

and we tend to have very high

expectations for and see a lot of

potential and want to see it carried

out and then be very unforgiving one.

And yeah, I mean I think I think that's

one of the most important things about

X-Men to pull it back to modern politics.

It's a book that shows us

alternatives and it shows us.

It shows us active models of resistance.

It shows us that when we are working

from the margins, we have the right

and responsibility to demand more.

And we so we talked about paper mirrors,

which I think is a central critical

concept to X men in terms of

politics and just in terms of,

well, everything about it.

And there's also something

I want to talk about.

I've been trying to come up

with a good name for this.

I'm sure somebody out there,

some theorist or scholar has a better term.

I like yours a lot.

Actually, I think I think even

if there is a more dominant term,

it's a really, really good one.

So this is what this is.

What I call paper windows as

opposed to paper mirrors.

It doesn't work as well because

even though papers not reflective,

it's also even less transparent than

it is reflective. Andy reflected.

It can be transparent.

OK, well regardless,

bear with me windows Windows made out

of Greece paper were actually a thing.

Well there we go.

It kind of works like last

was super expensive.

So yeah,

I feel much better But anyway,

so I've come to X men from a place of being

a lot of the terms that you mentioned Jay.

I mean I'm a white sis like I

am a in many ways.

What normal is considered to be

and so growing up with the X-Men

reading X-Men as a kid getting a

chance to be in the shoes of people

who weren't like me and to see

them as both incredible people.

But also people I could empathize

with like you know.

If Storm is going through a struggle

or kitties going through a struggle,

or Pyotr or whatever if the

New Mutants are falling in love

and having fights and whatever,

there are so many characters from you know,

admittedly not as much diversity

as we would like to see,

but still relatively diverse

backgrounds getting a chance

to put myself in their shoes.

I guess.

Kind of taught me early that, oh hey,

we're actually not all that different.

What I am is not necessarily normal,

it's just what I happen to be an X men X

men having the chance to do that, I think,

is another way that it can be very important.

Certainly not.

You know, overshadowing the paper mirror.

Fact of it,

because that's something that

people who are in poor,

marginalized don't have enough of in comics.

But I like that X-Men can do

both when it's done really well.

That's seems huge to me.

Yeah,

I mean,

I think one of the books that's

nailing that right now is Miss Marvel,

just in terms of giving readers first of all,

giving readers outside of the

default target audience of comics who

don't see a lot of representation.

Some really good representation and

2nd giving people who would not who

would not pick up a book about.

A Pakistani American girl in New

Jersey and a practicing Muslim Muslim,

but who will, if it's a superhero

comic basically saying hey so.

Here is here's a character your

identify with who is not like you

and who you're going to start,

and a group of people who are going to

start needing to see as a person there's.

It's actually that's that is

something that I love when it works,

and it's one of those sort of.

Not exactly sneaky, but it's a great.

I think it's a great way to

use big franchise stuff.

In a productive way is to realize

that it has a certain amount of

reach and selling power pretty

much no matter what you do with it,

so use it as a way to get that

that default audience.

To look through those windows that

they might not seek out to say hey,

cool superhero stuff inside here.

Oh and empathy. Haha, we've tricked you.

Now you're a better person.

Take that.

Yet Miss Marvel is basically everything

superhero comics should be in 2017, like

everything it represents is just amazing.

If you haven't read this book,

highly, highly recommended.

Nothing to do with X-Men

doesn't matter so good.

Same University math Wolverine.

Once close enough I get frustrated a lot.

At bubbly idealism it kind of feels,

and we're coming out of a period

where it felt like a lot of what

I could find in comics was either

just utter endemic misery or

like pure bubbly upbeat stuff.

And yeah, Miss Marvel is great

as a character who.

Persists and cares.

But also earns it totally like.

Yeah, she's so good and everyone who

works on that book is amazing, yes?

So we're apparently burning through time

'cause I forget panels order on time,

so we should talk about like

actual specific stuff in X-Men.

Alright, so we've been saying,

you know this is the mutant revolution,

and pulling on those

metaphors and I have been,

I've if you follow me on line you know that

I look to panels a lot as a paper mirror.

And I looked at comics a lot

as a paper mirror,

and I looked to them a lot as a

source for sort of symbols that help

me make sense of feelings and life.

And a world that does not

follow narrative rules.

And I've I.

I've been posting, you know,

my queried Cyclops pictures,

but at the same time I think the Mutant

Revolution is a really powerful metaphor.

For what I want and what I want to be

part of right now and for cultural

and direct resistance in an era where

our president is functionally mojo,

yeah.

Because I don't know who's listening

or who's out there or other folks

individual stories, for the most part,

but I am a Jewish transmission in a

relationship that is complicated.

Lee Queer and a marriage whose

legality depends on both states.

Willingness to like how states

recognize my gender and.

Whether same sex marriage is legal in them?

And. It's really \*\*\*\*\*\*\* scary

and I am comparatively privileged.

I am white, I am.

You know I'm in a city that is.

I live in New York City.

It is very liberal.

It is a city that has a lot

of social safety net built in.

And is basically set up to be

an effective resistant city.

But it's still really,

really scary to get up every day,

and it's really scary to travel,

and it's really scary to read the news.

And it's even scarier to not

read the news and.

So the idea of a mutant revolution.

I think for me comes back to what

the X-Men are at their core,

which is family.

The X-Men are a bunch of misfits

and marginalized people who are

incredibly vulnerable on their own.

Even the more powerful among them.

You know you see all of the what if

stories and there's no what if this

person wasn't found by the X-Men?

What if this character died?

What if, etc?

And one of the things you see most

consistently is that for the most part.

No one really survives on their own.

The Mutant revolution to me is.

About standing up.

As a group,

it's about that kind of solidarity and unity,

and it's also about the decision.

To be visible in a large enough

insignificant have enough mass that

we can't be ignored and Jay you

mentioned it being about family,

and I think it's important to note

it specifically about chosen family.

Yeah,

which when you're a person in

whatever kind of category or group

or whatever who maybe doesn't

have a home in the family,

grew up with or the community

you grew up with.

Being able to find that and

have that should be real.

That's critical,

and that's what the X-Men are.

I mean there not a whole bunch of

people with metaphorical I beams.

There are people with metaphorical

I beams and weather powers and

teleportation powers and bones.

They can throw out of there.

For some reason and stuff like that,

they're all.

They're all weird in their own way.

They're all different in their own way,

and yet they stand together.

Yeah, it's about.

It's about intersectional

solidarity and allyship.

It's about saying we are coming here.

It's about saying my powers are scary.

For mostly this, you know,

my powers are scary in destructive,

but their containable and I mostly pass.

And your powers are much less destructive,

and you're much less likely to be targeted

as someone who could functionally,

who's seen as dangerous,

but your physics you are physically,

you can't. You can't pass this human.

You're visible mutant.

These are completely different places.

We also have whatever other

stuff we have going on going on,

But what we have in common is that

we're all mutants, and I mean,

let's face it, everybody in this room.

We're all mutants, yeah?

And or work.

Or humans who are choosing

to say you never know.

I might as well be or my

kids might as well be,

or someone I love might as well be.

And those personal relationships

aren't required to care like yeah,

so for me,

that's where the metaphor comes into use.

And that's where having that as a

unifying idea comes in that this is.

Or where the metaphor becomes

useful is yeah, about about those

intersections and about that solidarity,

and about that finding. The umbrella.

That we can all be under without

having to discard our individual

identities and without having to

discard our individual needs and causes.

So we're talking about,

you know what the Mutant revolution is,

how that applies.

So I kind of feel like we should work

in some of the particulars from X-Men.

Some of the political kind of

standpoints of important characters,

important events, that sort of thing.

Yeah, so. My favorite place to come too.

In terms of current politics

is not actually the mute well.

Some of its immune revolution

stuff Cyclops Mutant Revolution,

although that kind of fizzled,

but my go to right now in

terms of X-Men is dark rain.

We told you we were coming back

to it circled back and I have

mixed feelings about that era but

I \*\*\*\*\*\*\* love the utopia are we

should probably explain briefly what

the deal is with that dark rain.

Norman Osborn ended up President

took over the United States was

still basically the Green Goblin.

There are a lot of parallels

to the current administration,

although it was more than 10 years ago.

He definitely would have used

Twitter if he had it.

He set up an X men team in an

Avengers team and the X-Men team

was run by Emma Frost,

who deliberately infiltrated them.

But we're still working

with the sentences gas.

Sorry this and the X-Men who

are based in San Francisco.

At that point,

The Avengers team was just sort of

terrifying, but what the X-Men did,

what Cyclops did was to create Utopia,

which was essentially not initially,

well, OK.

The Exodus started out basically

doing damage control resistance,

helping out at the margins,

but avoiding getting arrested

or getting tactically arrested.

And using a lot of resistance

or assistance tactics.

And I should say, by the way,

that I talk about disability activism.

And again I feel like this is a

real pertinent thing right now.

And this is where and I feel like.

I feel very,

very strongly this is the Cyclops is

right territory for me that Cyclops is.

Modes of resistance are hell.

Yeah,

are much much more effective

and actual resistance.

So where they were doing tact,

avoiding getting arrested or getting

tactically arrested when there were

people who do that without who worked,

there's a term in active

system called Arrest ability.

Which is basically whether you are

in a position where you could.

You can do things that will get you

arrested without wrecking your health,

life identity,

etc.

And that's something that again

is part of resistance tactics,

choosing and making decisions based on that.

And it's something that you actually

see the X-Men talking about,

if not exactly in those terms

during dark Reign.

So they're working around the margins.

They're trying to figure out how to

survive and what they ultimately do.

Is a combination of incredibly

effective use of news media?

And the foundation of Utopia.

For those of you who are recent to the X-Men

or Mr. Bunch, Utopia was briefly

a nominally sovereign nation.

In some ways it was a lot

like a second Genosha.

It was a place that mutants had default

citizenship to if they wanted Genosha.

The later one that was good,

not the previous one.

That sucked right Genosha under Magneto.

Dish yes, valid points.

But Utopia was was technically

was off the coast of California.

It was on the raised remains of asteroid MI.

Think we did a cold open about it.

I asked him is really confusing and it was

sort of in a perpetual state of kind of OK.

Well, I guess we're here.

What do we do now? Responsiveness,

but it was the basically the last frantic

action of a group of people who saw

themselves in tremendous danger who were

being actively and aggressively targeted by.

A powerful group with

extremely effective media spin.

And obviously it's not an option in

literal terms that a lot of us have,

but it's a very good.

It's one of the more direct

resistance errors of the X men,

and I like going back to it.

For that.

I mean, it's easy to go to the Xavier,

Magneto thing, but I don't know.

I mean, everyone tries to simplify that

into an MLK versus Malcolm X thing,

and that's kind of excessively reductive,

I think.

So I like your decision to go for something

more current and something more relevant.

Something that was designed in a more

contemporary political atmosphere.

Who can we actually talk about?

The MLK versus Malcolm X thing,

sure,

and then we get questions pretty alright.

So I've said this before on the podcast.

I will say it again,

that is a \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\* duality.

The idea of Malcolm X is the socially

acceptable pacifist who is not threatening

to white liberals is OK and OK.

I'm sorry I am. It's been a day

to find been a day and a night,

Anna Day and again hurricane things

and I just got texts from my parents,

which is what I'm looking at.

And since we mentioned this

before we started recording,

our parents are both on the West Coast of

Florida and right in the path of Irma,

so we are checking our phones

a lot during this time.

Right, yeah, the people people

tend to represent Malcolm X as

a not Malcolm X or they tend to

represent Malcolm X as the militant.

Resistance MLK as the passive and

acceptable to white liberals who

want to feel virtuous but really

don't have conversations about

racism and white supremacy figure.

Those are both.

Radical oversimplifications and

I think in particular they do.

Martin Luther King a tremendous

disservice and erase a huge

amount of his most important work.

And speaking and writing. So.

But in terms of Xavier and Magneto,

I think their relevant point is that

we need both ideologues and actors.

That the principles matter,

and keeping in mind the principles that

we're fighting for and pushing for,

and the reasons we're doing things matter.

And having you know,

an idea of the world that we're shooting for,

even if it's not a world that

we're even if it's a world that

we're more than one step away from

getting to is really important.

And so is taking down the structures

that are preventing us from reaching it,

and so is actively resisting oppression,

and so is actively confronting.

Violence.

In ways that are effective.

And saying sometimes you,

and saying you know sometimes

you have to take smaller steps

and steps in a direction that

might not be part of the ideal.

To survive to the next day and have

something to build on and one of

the things I enjoy about where the X

line has gone is that it's not really

about Xavier and Magneto anymore.

I mean Magneto is no longer a massive

leader and Xavier's been dead for awhile,

but the parallel I really enjoyed were

sort of their ideological descendants,

namely in some ways.

And yes, I know we could.

There are totally exceptions,

but in some ways Cyclops almost took

magnetos more active approach to heart,

and Wolverine almost took well.

Logan almost took.

Xaviers more peaceful approach to heart,

and I like those are more complex

versions of where that came from.

You know what I like about them?

I like that they both acknowledge

that both are necessary exactly,

and that's one of the most important parts.

Yeah, that's something that you

get at the end of AVX consequences.

Actually,

in Cyclops is letter to magnesia

or not to Magneto Logan?

Wow I am really got this distracted

but in Cyclops is letter to Wolverine

and it's something you see when they

have actual conversations after that.

And I mean I think it's critical

we need resistance.

And we need schools and we need

both of those things because we

need to fight for the we need.

We need to keep fighting and if

we're going to keep fighting,

we've got to believe.

And we've got to build a future

that's worth fighting for.

Finally, I want to come back to

something that we were talking

about when we were planning this

panel 'cause you were trying to

think of what the X-Men what?

The the X-men's closest metaphor or

role in current political classes and

intersections would be based on what they do.

Yeah, yeah, I did.

You come up with any conclusions

'cause I'm still just trying

to figure out who is forces.

Well, so people talk about heroes.

As you know the better thing as

the better option. And if we take

the premise that X-Men are heroes.

Here's what they are there people

who look at things and look at

folks who present direct threats.

To the safety. And dignity.

Of other humans, whether they are,

whether they're baseline humans or mutants.

And who confront them?

Nonviolently when they can,

and violently when,

that's the way to do it in ways

that are about minimizing harm.

And minimizing general harm,

but ultimately about.

Neutralizing that particular thread.

Hi quite alright but alright.

Alright, and so yeah with so again.

We're not saying that is

the only right solution.

We're not saying the X-Men are always right,

the X-Men are wrong. A lot.

Next door on whole lot,

and the X-Men are inconsistently written.

What we are saying is that

if you're a superhero fan,

if you're a superhero comics creator for

someone who talks about superheroes so

useful to look at what the characters

you idealize do and how they interact.

With the things they face

and the things they support.

And if you're reading those comics now

and talking about those comics now,

it's essential to do that.

You have to.

It's yeah,

because the mutant revolution is here.

Whether we're ready for it or not sometimes.

It's just sort of what's necessary.

And with that it being alive episode

we always try to have questions.

So if anybody wants to ask a thing about

expert in politics or just men in general,

it doesn't have to be specific

to this individual topic.

There's a microphone right

there and you totally should.

If you cannot get to the

microphone and have a question,

raise your hand and we will make

sure that the microphone gets to you.

We should also say if you have

detailed continuity questions,

we are able to answer the stuff

that we do on the podcast because

we are research monsters.

If you have a question that

we cannot answer on hand,

we will post the answer on line

or answer it in a later episode.

But it might be that we need

to look some stuff up.

And we have one to Maximoff in the front.

Yes, that was a brave continuity choice.

She's really complex.

She's really intense and awesome

headpiece on powers, alright?

Alright,

so I was going to ask kind of confused.

Alright, I was going to.

A little confused of a question

that I was going to ask about.

The ways in which.

The X-Men are presented as the the pacifist.

Liberal response, even when what

they're actually doing is not.

I would not describe it as

nonviolent necessarily know.

Yeah, they are.

They're going and starting fights,

but they are getting are jumping into fights.

So what do you think about the way

that expend potentially provides a?

A window, potentially a problematic

window for people from the from

from different political views

to think that they understand.

I mean part of it is of course

just that it's a superhero comic,

and so people are.

People are just going to punch

in a superhero comic.

But yeah,

when you get down to it when you

look at Xavier's dream as being

one of peaceful coexistence,

it can get a little weird at first glance,

totally.

I think the X-Men are a great window too.

To discover discovering cognitive dissonance.

Of looking at something and

how it doesn't line up because

you're absolutely right,

and I think I think in terms

of what they represent there,

that that inconsistency,

which is super common super present.

Hello yes hello I was wondering

if you guys were mutants,

what kind of powers or what would

you look like oh man I mean OK so

I thought about this definitely I

know we both have surprising no one.

What kind would we want?

Or what kind would we have

based on like personality,

current attributes,

'cause those are two different questions.

Both OK, alright so for me if I could

choose a mutant power Madrox easy the whole

the whole like fear of missing out thing.

Well clearly the solution is to have

like 40 of you around the world

doing a bunch of different things.

I would want to be able to manipulate

my personal interactions with time to be

able to slow down or speed up that be

handy I would get \*\*\*\* done would be great.

I also I don't know Anna more

like internal parts light.

That I'd be actually if I if I'm

not going to be practical and just

talk about what I want.

Flight absolutely hands down.

Then you can just carry me around awkwardly

in my shoulders would come out and join,

you know, how did that never happen?

Like when Angel carries people,

they work out a lot.

OK, really strong lads.

I always on a more personal level.

I always really,

really like longshots powers and for

those for people who are unfamiliar,

he has incredibly good luck like

supernaturally good which are

based on his intentions.

As long as he believes

he's doing the right thing,

things tend to work out and that

is such an appealing concept.

The idea that you can just care so

hard that reality rewrites itself.

I mean, it's beautiful, it's impossible,

but man what a world that would be right.

Ha.

You can't tell 'cause I'm wearing sunglasses,

but I'm side eyeing you.

That's fair, that's fair.

OK, so since we're talking politics this

time I have a representation question.

My familiarity with the X-Men

is largely the 90s cartoon,

and then you all for a couple years now.

And what I'm wondering,

we have with queer characters explicitly in.

In in universe,

but are there any trans characters

or gender nonconforming characters

that you're aware of that are

Canon and follow up question?

Is it terrible and sad?

OK, the answer to that is that X

men and superheroes in general

have fallen down real \*\*\*\*.

\*\* trans representation there are

gender nonconforming characters

who are not particularly written

as generally gender nonconforming.

I will say at this point to that

gender nonconforming is a broad

broad descriptor so there are a lot

of characters who I would describe

as not conforming to traditional

gender roles or stereotypes,

but who are probably cisgender

identifying characters.

It is an element of mystiques

characterization that I would love

to see explored more textually.

There is Cloud who is a from the

defender is an arguably genderqueer

character in the defenders.

There's there are.

I have really mixed feelings about

describing saving as trans representation

mostly conservative from runaways.

Even a character who like.

Zavin shows to change their

gender presentation based on.

Someone based on Caroline's sexual

orientation and as far as I know,

continued to identify primarily

as male during that actually is,

and I might be missing things.

I haven't read all of runaways.

I've read most of it and it's been awhile,

so I feel like.

Yeah, I feel like X-Men Ann has just

massively massively missed that and

missed those opportunities and been

behind or had the only characters

who represented gender nonconformity.

Significant or or?

Or gender divergents be characters

for whom it was part of the memory

shape shifters or something like that,

or aliens or something like that.

Yeah, we definitely it's sad and it's

\*\*\*\*\*\* and it makes me really angry.

And actually in the audience

you raise your hand.

If an example to if you miss somebody.

Actual.

But it's there.

I mean OK, yeah, OK, that's something yes,

I haven't read the series, that's awesome.

That's a start. There is.

But yeah. Otherwise,

I mean you're going to have to go to

Fannin or personal Canon for that,

which is a huge \*\*\*. \*\*\*\* shame.

Yeah. I mean, I hope we get there.

We're certainly seeing way more

queer characters in X-Men these days.

But X-men's always been like a little

bit behind where it should be.

Or times a lot behind where it should be.

So yeah, let's see some transaction

come on like why would you not?

You had a question about how you'd

like to see like X-Men represent

social issues like the two examples.

I was thinking over like Miss Marvel

currently and like Ex Machina like

would you like to see like more?

I mean obviously more like representation

and intersectionality but like.

I guess X-Men directly addressing

like current politics like outside

of the mutant metaphor,

like identifying with other

minority groups like at what point?

There's obviously only so much you can

do with that in something that's not

being produced in simultaneous real time.

Yes, consumer created so much

before they come out.

And honestly,

if there's anything we've learned from 2017,

it's that it can always get worse in

real weird directions, real abruptly.

What I think would solve a lot

of my problems here.

Is.

A version of X men in which Mutant

doesn't automatically erase all

other vectors of identity or become

the primary vector of identity.

I would like to see mutants talking about.

I mean, again,

I will go back to disability

rights as an issue, but I would.

I would like to see mutants addressing

immigration issues because they are a

largely international team and there

are largely international team with

members who are likely to be seen

as threats and along those lines.

I mean it would also just be

read to see an X men book.

It's not just about people

that punched the bad guys.

I mean I love seeing punching bad

guys don't run a few and there it

seeing it focus for not going out.

That would be amazing.

Seeing 1A group of justice activists,

politicians, public relations,

people like having the focus of an expert,

that would be rad.

Again this is I mentioned previously

at the beginning.

I'm gonna bring it full circle

and his imaginary.

What if universe where you

know Cyclops State?

In journalism,

PPW Red we're getting really

close to the end,

but I think we can get both

questions were fast, yes?

Weirdly intimidating,

we're all we're all here for you.

One of my favorite moments in all of

X-Men history is Cyclops and Whedon's

astonishing run in that one issue when you

know they're complaining about the tights.

Wolverines complain about the tights,

and he says, like we have to astonish them.

Meaning, like we sort of have

to embrace like being heroes?

Yeah, which is so easy to identify

in a comic book because they're

wearing bright colors or they're

swinging from from rooftops?

What like, what's the thing like, what?

How do we be heroic?

Well, my favorite Cyclops moment

in Whedon's astonishing run.

Is when he reads Professor Xavier the

riot act on Genosha about abusing danger.

And I think the ways that we can

do that is wearing those colors.

Having those things that give us

the semiotics of being heroes.

I think this is especially important

if you are someone who is in a

position of visible privilege.

If you are that guy I described

at the beginning of the panel.

If you are someone to whom people

who don't listen to.

A lot of us are likely to hear and

take seriously to stand up where those

symbols and say this is what this means,

and to have those

uncomfortable conversations.

I mean, nobody likes telling a

relative that there are racist ask,

but if you can then do so.

I mean do it nicely,

because if that works then do

it relative well, yeah,

relatively nicely.

But also listen identify with

the people who aren't.

You say this is an intelligence.

I don't have a frame of reference with

this as someone whose experiences

I cannot directly speak to.

But I believe them,

and I believe their ability to

assess their own needs, their own,

and their own experiences.

Thank you and we have time for one more.

Fun one day and out on hopefully.

What are your hopes and fears for

the upcoming new Minions movie?

I hope Danny shows back up in the books.

Yes. Oh I love merage yes. Oh dude.

So I am so stupidly excited about this movie.

I know I should be cautious.

I know if I open myself up they can

hurt me but. The director is it?

Josh Boone.

Yeah, the interviews I've seen with him,

he seems to really get new mutants.

He seems really familiar,

and so if it can bring in, I mean,

yes,

I know there's there's the sun

spot casting thing,

and that was a little iffy.

Everyone wants to make sense so much wider,

but yeah,

if they can keep that kind of

diversity of background but also

just have a bunch of teenagers

who are coming from different

backgrounds and clashing with each

other and understanding each other,

have it feel like teenagers.

Have it feel like have it feel that level

of stormy and that level of important.

Yeah,

we've seen with the X-Men we

have seen the hero stuff.

We've seen the cool,

stylish stuff we've seen the everyone

is gritty and wears leather stuff.

We've seen the big epic fights.

I want an X men movie that shows us that

God family yes exactly and we're totally

out of time, so I guess we should.

Thank you, I'm not quite done with.

Outro so this special live episode

of Jay and Miles explain the X-Men

has been recorded in Portland OR

at Rose City Comic Con.

We are ordinarily produced by Kurt Loyd,

but today our producer Emeritus Kailia out

of Kaiju cast is stepping in to fill in.

Style. New episodes of our show come

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you to those of you who turned out.

Yes, if you were here to those of

you who support us on Patreon,

but also just those of you who support

us by listening and by talking and

being part of the conversation.

And giving us an audience where we

feel like we can sit on stage and say

the things that we said today and have

those conversations and have stuck

with us through a pretty weird year.

Yeah,

we mentioned we mentioned at the

party last night that if you've been

here from the start when you started

listening we were married and my

name was Rachel.

So thanks for seeing us through

a lot of stuff.

It's actually made a huge difference.

Yes, you are phenomenal.

We love you so much.

Thank you.

And yes,

thank you all so much for being here.

This has been awesome.