Grand Admiral Thrawn

## Thrawn

### Physical Features

Chiss, with dark blue hair red eyes, blue skin, white Imperial uniform and a Grand Admiral ranking badge

### Goal

To crush the Rebellion
Protect his people and defend his homeworld.

## Relationships

### Relatives

Unnamed parents
Unnamed older sister †
Syndic Thrass † (brother, *Legends*)

### Friends / Allies

Eli Vanto, Arihnda Pryce, Rukh, Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, Padmé Amidala, Emperor Palpatine, Agent Kallus (formerly), Kassius Konstantine (formerly), Tiber Saxon, Wilhuff Tarkin, Wullf Yularen, Vult Skerris, Captain Slavin, Gilad Pellaeon, Mara Jade Skywalker (formerly)

### Minions

Eli Vanto, Rukh, Yogar Lyste (formerly), Stormtroopers, Death Troopers, Arihnda Pryce, Captain Slavin

### **Enemies**

Hera Syndulla, Ezra Bridger, Alexsandr Kallus, Kanan Jarrus, Zeb Orrelios, Chopper, Sabine Wren, Jun Sato, Commander Rex, Commander Wolffe, Commando Gregor, Luke Skywalker, Leia Organa, Han Solo, Lando Calrissian, Chewbacca, R2-D2, Mart Mattin, Cikatro Vizago

## Personal Information

### Occupation

**Canon:**
Commander (formerly)
Lieutenant (formerly)
Second Weapons Officer (formerly)
First Weapons Officer (formerly)
Senior Lieutenant (formerly)
Captain (formerly)
Commodore (formerly)
Admiral (formerly)
Imperial Grand Admiral

**Legends:**
Imperial Grand Admiral
Leader of the Empire of the Hand
Warlord of the Empire
Lord of Honoghr

### Affiliations

Neutral
Galactic Empire
The Chiss Ascendancy

### Paraphernalia

His blaster
His art collection
The *Chimaera*
Syndulla Kalikori (formerly)

### Powers/Abilities

Leadership
Genius-Level Intellect
 Master Strategist
Master Tactician
Master Analyzer
Skilled Psychology
Skilled Interrogator
Formidable in hand-to-hand combat
Manipulation
Master of Reasoning

### Likes

Art, war, strategy, the Chiss Ascendancy, studying war, analyzing his enemies' battle tactics

### Dislikes

Rebels, incompetence, lack of respect, racism, treason, civilian casualties, being mistaken for a Pantoran

## Character Information

### **Voice**

Lars Mikkelsen (*Star Wars Rebels*)
Marc Thompson (audiobooks)

### **Inspiration**

Erwin Rommel
Robert E. Lee
Hannibal Barca
Alexander the Great
Sherlock Holmes

**Mitth'raw'nuruodo**, better known as **Grand Admiral Thrawn** is a major villain in the *Star Wars universe*. He was introduced in the 1991 Timothy Zahn novel *Heir to the Empire*, being Commander of the Galactic Empires remaining forces after the defeat of Palpatine at the hands of Anakin Skywalker. In this continuity, he faced off the Skywalker twins, Luke Skywalker and Leia Organa Solo. He is seemingly resurrected in the *Hand of Thrawn* duology (1997–98), and his backstory is explored in various other novels, short stories, comics, and video games in the Star Wars expanded universe.

Due to his popularity in the non-canon legends, he was re-introduced in the new Star Wars Canon as the main antagonist of the third and fourth and final seasons of *Star Wars Rebels* television series.

In the Legends material, Thrawn was voiced by Tris King in *TIE Fighter* and Robin Atkin Downes in *Empire at War: Forces of Corruption* (who also voiced Cham Syndulla in the *Clone Wars* and *Rebels* television series). In canon, he was voiced by Lars Mikkelsen. In both Canon and Legends continuity, he is voiced by Marc Thompson in the audiobook versions of both the Legends and Canon *Thrawn* trilogies.

## Biography

### Personality

*Star Wars Rebels* presents Thrawn as a cold-blooded Imperial and one of the Rebels' most dangerous adversaries. He was highly intelligent, calm, level-headed, and observant, as he believes that understanding an enemy's culture, history, philosophy, and art is crucial in order to discern their tactics and ultimately defeat them in battle. He is tactically superior to many other Imperial leaders who often used the same strategies, and, as a result, were defeated by the Rebels. When Thrawn is dispatched to fight Cham Syndulla and his followers, the latter does not expect his adversary's attacks to be as precise and devastating as they turned out to be. He also used situations to his advantage and could formulate creative strategies in his head that could be achieved without error. Unlike most other Imperial officers, Thrawn is not a particularly cruel or malicious individual. As a matter of fact, he is quite gentlemanly, being polite and cordial with even his own enemies. Thrawn is also very patient, preferring to study the tactics of his enemies rather than to instantly become the aggressor, even if it means allowing them to escape. However, Thrawn's patience does have its limits, as he sometimes becomes annoyed or enraged when others either question his views or fail to understand his appreciation of art.

Although antagonistic and quite ruthless, Thrawn is not pure evil. He generally preferred to avoid causing collateral damage, as was demonstrated during the Battle of Batonn, where he attempted to negotiate with the enemy. However, although reluctantly, Thrawn sometimes condoned civilian casualties if it meant a sure victory, as shown during the Liberation of Lothal.Even though he never told anyone, not even his most trusted friend, Eli Vanto, Thrawn despised the oppressive, racist, and corrupt Imperial culture, viewing many of his fellow officers as either evil or downright stupid. He was also one of the few within the Empire to realize how evil Sidious is, even going as far to speculate that he could be in touch with the Force. Being a pragmatist, he believed the Empire to be a necessary evil and that serving it is the best way to defend his people. Ironically, he managed to obtain the rank of Grand Admiral, meaning that he is one of the highest-ranking members of a civilization he neither adores nor originally comes from. Even so, the fact that he purposefully infiltrated the Imperial hierarchy means that he must follow Imperial directives, meaning that, in order to fit in, he comes across as far crueler than he is on a moral level. He believes in the ends justifying the means, which is evident when he practically kills a mechanic to set an example. Finally, Thrawn inspires loyalty from his men. Where people like Darth Vader and Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin seek to punish those who fail, Thrawn sees those failures as opportunities, so that his men can learn to do better and succeed. He views death as a means of punishing soldiers as being wasteful.

Like all *Star Wars* villains, Thrawn was arrogant as he underestimated the main hero, Ezra Bridger, a young Jedi who managed to take out his entire fleet with help from the Purrgil.

## Legends

### Background

Thrawn was born on the planet Csilla and had a brother, Thrass. Both Thrawn and Thrass were adopted into the house of Mitth

### The *Thrawn* trilogy

#### *Heir to the Empire*

Five years after *Return of the Jedi*, Grand Admiral Thrawn, one of the last twelve Grand Admirals, secretly took command of a shattered Imperial Fleet, planning to attack the New Republic, who themselves are building ttheir own armies. He hoped to search for a Dark Jedi to join his side to restore the Galactic Empire. Elsewhere, the Skywalker twins have began building their lives; Leia has married han Solo, expecting twins, and Luke has become the long-awaited new line of Jedi Knights. Despite the New Republic's numerical advantage over the remaining Imperial Forces, Thrawn is still rebuilding the Galactic Empire. Visiting Emperor Palpatine's Waylland storehouse, he hopes to gain the storehouse's massive array of Spaarti cloning cylinders.
With Gillad Pellaeon, Talon Karrde, and Mara Jade Skywalker , they obtain several creatures ysalamiri, possing the natural ability to disrupt the Force, to subdue the storehouse's guardian, Joruus C'boath, an evil clone of a Jedi Master Thrawn previously killed. C'boath offers his loyalty to Thrawn in exchange for two acolytes to bend to his will: Darth Vader's twins, Luke Skywalker and Leia Organa. He sends two Noghri killers to kidnap the twins, but Leia defends herself from one attack, as does Luke. The Noghri surrenders just as Thrawn launches his first offensive to the republich, making hit and run attacks to the New Republic's territory. Thrawn invades Nkllon because he is in need of Warships. His stormtroopers use the stolen miners to board and hijack the ships, but they are thwarted when Lando is able to seize control of the miners remotely. The Grand Admiral withdraws his forces, but thanks to Thrawn's plotting, his New Republic nemesis Admiral Ackbar is soon arrested for treason.

#### *Dark Force Rising*

The book reveals that prior to the Clone Wars, the Old Republic had constructed a fleet of highly automated heavy cruisers, known as the Katana fleet. A virus infected the crews of the entire fleet and drove them insane. The fleet was never seen again until smuggler Talon Karrde discovered it (several years before the events of the first book). With access to Palpatine's private storehouse on the planet Wayland, Thrawn presses his advantage to marshal more forces for the battle against the New Republic. Mara Jade, in an attempt to exonerate the Empire's warrant for Karrde's arrest, goes to Thrawn and offers to reveal the location of the Katana fleet. Instead, he has her followed and Karrde is captured. Mara and Luke rescue Karrde from Thrawn's Star Destroyer as Thrawn attempts to capture another man who knows about the Katana fleet.
Meanwhile, Leia learns that the Noghri serve the Empire because they revere her late father, the insidious Vader, who they believe saved their planet Honoghr from ecological disaster. Leia convinces them that they have been deceived and effectively enslaved by the Empire, and they switch sides. With Ackbar temporarily neutralized as a tactical opponent, Thrawn leads an army of clones to claim the so-called "Katana fleet", outmaneuvering Luke, Lando, and Han Solo.

#### *The Last Command*

Set about a month after the previous book, Thrawn uses the Katana fleet, manned with clones, to mount a successful offensive against the New Republic. Seizing one planet after the other, the Grand Admiral soon immobilizes the galactic capital world, Coruscant. He has placed multiple cloaked asteroids around the planet, and through a ruse he has led the New Republic leadership to believe that Coruscant is surrounded with them. Learning of the deception, the Republic fleet attacks the Imperial shipyards at Bilbringi to capture a device that can find the cloaked asteroids, but Thrawn's forces crush them. Meanwhile, Luke and Leia lead a group to destroy the cloning facility on Wayland. Just as Thrawn and Pellaeon learn that the Noghri aided in the attack on Wayland, Thrawn's own Noghri bodyguard, Rukh, kills the Grand Admiral—whose last words are, "But ... it was so artistically done." With all hope of victory dashed by Thrawn's death, Pellaeon orders the Imperial forces to retreat.

### *Vision of the Future*

Admiral Gilad Pellaeon admits that the Empire, down to only a few sectors, is now fighting a losing battle, and initiates peace talks with Princess Leia. However, Moff Disra hires a con artist, Flim, to impersonate the deceased Grand Admiral Thrawn in order to motivate the Imperial forces. Major Grodin Tierce, the clone of a former stormtrooper imbued with Thrawn's tactical intellect by the grand admiral himself, strategizes that the false Thrawn could also rally support for the Empire and intimidate the New Republic. The tactic is successful until Pellaeon and Talon Karrde—on opposing sides but both desiring peace—expose Flim. Meanwhile, at a fortress called the Hand of Thrawn, Luke and Mara discover a gestating and near-complete clone of Thrawn, which is killed during their escape. An expedition by Thrawn to the galaxy's Unknown Regions is also mentioned. Finally, a peace treaty is signed by Pellaeon and the New Republic's president.

## Canon

### *Star Wars Rebels*: Season 3

Annoyed by the recent rebel activity going on at Lothal, Arihnda Pryce approaches Grand Moff Tarkin and requests for the assistance from someone who sees a "bigger picture" about bring about the downfall of the rebels and requests for the Seventh Fleet led by Grand Admiral Thrawn.  While some officers, such as Konstantine, believed that these ships were the rebel fleet, Thrawn and Pryce actually both believed that this group of rebels were the key for the Empire to destroy the Rebellion before it begun. Pryce revealed Thrawn just didn't want to concern himself with just Phoenix Squadron, but the Rebel Alliance as a whole, starting with the rebel cell.

In his first major appearance, "Hera's Heroes," Thrawn moved his plans to capture rebels to Hera Syndulla's homeworld, Ryloth, where he helped the Captain in command, Slavin, on how to outsmart Cham Syndulla and the Rylothian resistance. During his visit to Syndulla's house, he had a battalion of stormtroopers move up to the Syndulla building. Slavin saw the new tactics unnecesary, believing the battle was no where nere here, but Thrawn assured that the battle was in that very building. They came across Twi'lek Hera Syndulla trying to escape with her companion, Ezra Bridger until she was brought back to her father's office while posing as a refugee. However, Thrawn was able to tell who Hera was while Ezra was a scout trooper in disguise. He stunned Ezra and had both rebels locked away. Taking the Kalikori as a trophy, Thrawn acknowledged his respect for Hera and left Slavin to deal with the rebel prisoners, seeing how the rebels would react to rescuing one of their own. After witnessing enough, he allowed the rebels to escape.

In "Iron Squadron," during a plot to lure Jun Sato out of hiding, he had Imperial forces attack his homeworld of Mykapo. He sent Admiral Konstantine to stop the Rebels from freeing their rebel sympathizers in one ship after learning about Iron Squadron. His plan worked and Thrawn arrived on Mykapo after being contacted by Konstantine, where he had seen his plan to get Commander Sato out of hiding. Welcoming the commander's return, Thrawn and Sato swore to meet again before the rebels and Iron Squadron made it to hyperspace. The grand admiral contacted Konstantine, who had called fit assistance but covered up his excuses by changing it to report that the rebels escaped. However, Thrawn could see through Konstantine's bluff and easily surmised the rebels didn't just evade capture, but with their sympathizers as well.

Following the insurgency of Mykapo, in "An Inside Man," Thrawn returned to the TIE Defender factory on Lothal. During his visit, he killed Morad Sumar (without knowing he was allied with rebels) through a demonstration of a speeder bike that they had rigged. Capturing the rebels was imperative to Thrawn, who wanted to make sure that his TIE defender project was not compromised, which is why he made sure that Section A2 was heavily guarded and those without the proper clearance be killed on sight. Thrawn studied his enemies' art after summoning Lyste and Kallus to his office, including holographic displays of the Spectres, Sabine's art, and a Jedi Temple Guard's helmet and showed Lyste and Kallus Sabine's Starbird painting. While Lyste was dismissive of the artwork, Kallus was able to tell that the graffiti was Phoenix Squadron's symbol. Remembering the spectres he encountered on Ryloth, he could speculate that the *Ghost* crew were connected to Lothal. Based on Lyste's report that two workers went missing after Grand Admiral Thrawn's speech, he was able to tell that the rebels have infiltrated his Imperial factory (Ezra Bridger, Kanan Jarrus and their droid, Chopper); however, Ezra, Kanan and Chopper escaped with help from Kallus and attempted to escape on the AT-AT walkers until Thrawn told the other drives to fire at the ones controlled by Rebels. However, they escaped when Ryder Azadi and Marida Sumar. At the end, as Thrawn spoke with Kallus and Pryce and dismissed Lyste, Thrawn was able to tell that there was a mole in the Empire. Governor Pryce proclaimed that they must find the traitor. However, Thrawn told her to remain patient when she asked about questioning all Imperial personnel, and that they would set a trap for their Rebel spy.

He is briefly mentioned by Sabine Wren in "Visions and Voices" when she asks if Thrawn is there, but Hera reveals that they have no confirmation. Ezra was going to lead the attack, but was relieved of duties after seeing visions of Maul. Kanan and Sabine remained with Ezra to deal with the former Sith Lord.

In "Warhead," Thrawn planned to find out where the rebels were located and had E-XD infiltrator droids deployed to corners of the Galaxy. One found its way to Chopper base on Atollon but it was defeated by Zeb Orrelios, Chopper and AP-5. Fallowing the destruction of the Star Destroyer, Thrawn met with Kallus, who reported with the Grand Admiral how he suspected the rebels were able to foil Thrawn's plans with the infiltrator droids. However, the Grand Admiral remained in high spirits, Kallus was surprised by his superior's response. Thrawn revealed that the incident greatly narrowed down the planets from a thousand planets to ninety-four. Thrawn proclaimed the war would be theirs, as Kallus was left with worry his allies would be discovered.

### *Star Wars Rebels:* Season 4

Thrawn is contacted by Tiber Saxon, who shows him how the weapon called *the Duchess* operates by disintegrating the Mandalorians within their armor. However Thrawn noticed that the weapon was not at it's full potential. Saxon confided with the Grand Admiral that he only received partial plans. Thrawn advised Saxon he needed to capture Sabine Wren

Returning to Lothal, after Sabine and Ezra stole did TIE Defender project, Thrawn soon dispatched Rukh to help Pryce find the missing rebels.

After Hera escaped Lothal Ruth evidence of the new Tie defender project, Thrawn was prepared and the rebel fleet was soon defeated despite Commander Vult Skerris disobeying Thrawn's orders.

After the failed attack on Lothal Thrawn told Rukh to track down any survivors and capture them for interrogation, especially Hera Syndulla. The woman was captured by Governor Pryce, who took pleasure in torturing Hera. Thrawn visited her in Pryce's office, where he mocked Hera and that he promised to keep her Kalikori and implant her legacy within it, promising it would end with her bloodline (unaware that Hera was pregnant at the time). He was soon called off-world by Wilhuff Tarkin to defend his TIE defender project against Orso Krennic's Project Stardust. Thrawn left Pryce in charge, which would ultimately Start to lead to his downfall.

Off-world, Thrawn heard that the TIE defender project on Lothal had been delayed due to the destruction of the project's fuel depot and learned of Kanan's death. He furiously faced Arihnda Pryce and called her out for her arrogance, as the defeat of Kanan Jarrus also led to a halt on production, as the Rebel pilots had attempted to due earlier. Instead of defeating the rebels, she only ensured their victory and Thrawn stated he would deal with her when he returned. However, he deduced that the rebels would flounder without their leader, Ezra Bridger especially, and told Rukh to eliminate the rebels when he had the chance.

In the series finale, Thrawn returns from Coruscant, ruining Ezra and his friends' plan in liberating Lothal from the Galactic Empire. he is contacted by Ezra, who confidentially tells Thrawn that he and the rebels have taken the Imperial dome and have Governor Pryce as their prisoner. However, Thrawn is revealed to be one step ahead  of them and instead will only accept the young Jedi's surrender. When Ezra refuses, Thrawn orders a planetary bombardment and had sent Rukh to cause the rebels' shield generator to malfunction. unwilling to see his people suffer, Ezra is coerced into giving into Thrawn's demands. The Grand Admiral warns the young commander to come alone and not to attempt anything heroic or he would continue to bombard the city, unaware of Ezra's ultimate plan to save his homeworld.

When Ezra arrived on the *Chimaera*as promised, Thrawn had the captive Jedi brought into his office and began mocking him for what he stood for, even following his Jedi training. His taunts only aggravated Ezra, who was appalled by Thrawn's art collection, including one of Sabine's works of art. The Grand Admiral revealed he was not destroying Lothal completely, even keeping several artwork he collected over the years. Ezra angrily confronted Thrawn, reprimanding him of taking things that did not belong to him and telling Thrawn he didn't deserve the artwork in his possession or Lothal.  The Grand Admiral refuted that power was what people should truly keep and told Ezra that the Jedi would not teach him that and instead would take him to someone who would. He brought Ezra before a hologram of Palpatine, who used his public image when conversing with Ezra.  Palpatine dismissed Thrawn, who left Ezra with  Palpatine and ordered his forces to resume the city bombardment. During the liberation of Lothal, Rukh was killed by Garazeb Orrelios after throwing him on the destroyed power generator.

When Thrawn attempted to contact his bodyguard, Zeb answered instead and informed him of the Noghri's death.Despite Thrawn being assured of victory, he was suddenly confronted by Ezra and was generally surprised to see the boy managed to escape capture. Though he only managed to wound the human with his blaster, Ezra used his connection with the Purrgil, who wrapped their tentacles around Thrawn, who was utterly horrified as the creatures disappeared into hyperspace, taking Ezra and Thrawn to parts unknown.

## Relationships

### Eli Vanto

Eli was a loyal friend and follower of Thrawn's, especially acting as his translator whenever Thrawn struggled to speak the Galactic Basic. Vanto helped Thrawn integrate into the galactic society; in return, Thrawn admired Vanto for hisi understanding in Throughout the beginnings of his career, Eli was initially angry that he was turned over promotion and instead, put under Thrawn's services. However, over time, Eli grew loyal to Thrawn. The Chiss grew to see Eli a friend and a confident, but never revealed anything personal from his past. He tried everything to ensure his aid gained promotion within the Galactic Empire.  When he was offered to leave Thrawn's services, Vanto refused out of loyalty towards his friend.

Revealed at the end of the novel, *Thrawn*, in the titular character's personal diary that he did consider Vanto a friend and knew that his friend's skill would prove to be a valuable asset to the Chiss Ascendancy.

### Hera Syndulla

**(First Arch Enemy)**

The two were immediately enemies when they encountered each other in "Hera's Heroes," after Thrawn stole her Kalikori from her. Despite being an enemy, Thrawn acted compliant and patient with Hera, seeing her as a worthy opponent while interrogating her and trying to expose her as one of the rebels. After being locked in a cell Thrawn promised to keep her family heir loom in a place of honor and thanked her for her "hospitality" considering the fact that the place they were in is actually her home.

### Ezra Bridger

**(Second Arch-Enemy)**

Thrawn's animosity with Ezra was not seen until Season 4, where he believed Ezra would be lost without Kanan. However, he was proven wrong, especially when Ezra decided to disappear into hyperspace with Thrawn, following his Master's example of helping others when they are needed most. Overall, Thrawn just saw Ezra as a child lost in a war, displaying disappointment that Ezra chose to be a Jedi. However, he was curious and slightly impressed with Ezra's fighting skills, watching them closely. When they finally met face to face, Ezra remained defiant to Thrawn despite his surrender and Thrawn's calmness.

### Arihnda Pryce

Grand Admiral Thrawn and Arihnda originally had a mutal respect for one another, as Thrawn had immediately answered to her request in dealing with Ezra Bridger, Hera Syndulla and the rest of the rebels. He appeared to hold her in the highest regard, as their relationship dated back ten years before the events of the series, where Arihnda saught advice from Grand Admiral Thrawn on how to deal with a traitorous senator. She agreed with him that the rebels were continually going and later, Grand Admiral Thrawn left her in charge of the Chimaera. The relationship fell through when Pryce ordered the fuel depot in the TIE defender project and all respect Thrawn had for Pryce disappeared, as he promised to deal with her when he returned.

She tried capturing Ezra and the other rebels to please Thrawn, but they instead, trapped her.

## Trivia

* Lars Mikkelsen, Thrawn's voice actor, is the brother of Mads Mikkelsen, who plays Galen Erso in *Rogue One: A Star Wars Story*.
* In Legends, he gained the rank of Grand Admiral after taking down a corrupted Grand Admiral. In canon, Thrawn was granted the title for stopping the rebel insurgence on Batuu.
* The members of the Ghost crew that Thrawn only interacts with are Hera Syndulla and Ezra Bridger
	+ He briefly interacted with Kanan Jarrus, asking him why he feared the storm the Bendu took in the form of.
* In the Legends and in some of thrawn's pictures he has no pupils, but in Rebels he has them.
* Thrawn had a brother who was a syndic in the Chiss Ascendancy. In the New Canon, Thrawn has an unnamed sister who became a Sky-walker ( a group of female Chiss children who helped navigate the spice frighters until they outgrew their Force-sensitivity). Thrass also exists in the New Canon, but it is unknown if Thrawn and his sister are related to him.
* In the *Chaos Rising*novel, it is revealed Thrawn was originally called **Kivu'raw'nuru** and known by his Core name **Vurawn**. During his early days in the military he gained the name **Mitth'raw'nuru** after being adopted into the House of Mitth and only gained his current name **Mitth'raw'nuruodo** afterwards.
* Considers his former aide and comrade Eli vanto was his best and only friend.
* His past is shrouded in mysteries until the release of chaos rising of the Thrawn and the ascendancy trilogy
* His defeat was hinted at in the series finale of season 3, where the Bendu predicted that he would meet his downfall, wrapped around in a cold embrace.
	+ This ends up coming true in the season 4 and series finale, where Ezra Bridger summons a group of Purrgil, who wrap their tentacles around Thrawn and take him and Ezra into the Unknown Regions.
* Thrawn is considered the savior of the Star Wars franchise because his trilogy by Timothy Zahn when it received positive appraisals and gained popular opinion from fans, peaking their interest back into the franchise since the Return of the Jedi was released in 1983.
* He is a mixture of Sherlock Holmes, Alexander the great, Hannibal Barca, Erwin Rommel, and Robert e Lee.
* Dave Filoni confirmed in the last episode of Rebels Recon that Ezra and Thrawn did survive their trip into hyperspace. It was later confirmed in the fifth episode of The Mandalorian that Thrawn was indeed still alive but Ezra's whereabouts remained unknown.