Electronic Beats

* 2012/Feb
* 2012/Jul
* 2013

Published February 13, 2012. Words by Daniel Jones.

It’s rare that I get a chance to interview artists that I truly *love*. Not just bands who’ve put out a popular track, or someone famous, but people who create sounds that move me, that become part of my internal discography. *Claire Boucher*, the 23 year-old Montréalité who has been producing music as *Grimes*, has created one of the best pop records I’ve ever heard. That’s a pretty strong statement, but *Visions* is an album that can back it up. Equal parts moody introspection and danceability, it straddles the perfect line between legitimate oddness and aural appeal; in short, it’s a pure pleasure to listen to, over and over again. I sat down with the charming, wonderfully unpretentious Claire a couple weeks ago.

*First of all, are you actually playing here in Berlin? Because I haven’t heard a thing.*

I’m playing here in May. I’m on a promo trip right now. It’s a little weird to do an interview tour. I have a British label and I don’t live in Europe, so they had to bring me here and make me do everything all in one week.

*Sounds really hectic.*

No, it’s fine, it’s not bad. It’s like, I say a lot of stupid things so I feel like I’m giving a bad impression of myself.

*No, I think straight-forwardness is a way more interesting than rehearsed answers. I’ve done so many interviews where it just feels like “Our manager told us to say this.” So you’re not playing shows during this tour?*

I’m playing in London and in Paris, which is cool because I’ve never been in Paris before. I was supposed to play Berlin, but I’ve been kind of having a nervous breakdown about all the work, so we canceled that one. So I’m just talking about the album while I’m here.

*The album was so different than what I excepted first of all. What was inspiring you while you created it?*

That’s a pretty loaded question. *\*laughs\**

*I suppose it is; let’s break it down a bit. What were you dreaming about while you were making the album?*

I wasn’t sleeping very much. The whole album is like…an amphetamine drug binge in the dark.

*It felt calmer than that.*

I was crying the entire time. But I like that, I feel like the more depressed I am, the better the music that I’ll make.

*So chaos and depression fuel you.*

Yeah, and it’s funny because to me it’s a really depressing album but I think it comes off as really happy.

*I don’t think it was happy at all.*

No?

*The lyrics and the overall tone of it was very…I don’t want to say dark because I’m sick of that word. It was bleak, off-kilter somehow.*

I like that, I like that you think it’s bleak because it’s very bleak to me.

*Something in the vibe of each song connected to form this blanket of heaviness, masquerading as pop songs.*

Well, I like really depressing dance music. There’s something about the revelry of dance. At the end of the day going out and doing drugs, going to parties…there’s this weird emptiness to it.

*Clubbing is such a depressing thing when you really think about it.*

I feel like so much of what people reach for are things that can happen in that context. I go out to parties, to raves and clubs. That’s my recreational thing, but at the same time I find that to be a really sort of terrible experience a lot of time.

*It seems like a death in a way.*

It’s weird because I fucking love dancing and I love making people dance. I love playing parties. That’s probably the best thing. There’s something that feels really good about being able connect with an audience. I feel this album was really informed by just playing so many party-like environments. I had to really change the way my music sounded to make it fit into that context a lot more, which I think is one of the reasons why it has such a dance vibe. But I didn’t do that because I wanted to appease people. But the first time people danced on my show it was really rewarding. I think I was kind of seeking that feeling, that dream again.

*What have you been dreaming about lately?*

I dunno. I mostly just have nightmares.

*About what?*

Usually about the holocaust. I have a lot of pregnancy dreams. That would be the worst, being pregnant. You know dreams where the situation is really getting outta control and you realize you can’t control the situation anymore – I just have that, all the time. School shootings, but in fantastical water parks.

*Maybe you should smoke more weed before you go to sleep. Though it sounds like you’re more productive when you’re ‘up’…*

No, I’m quitting weed. It doesn’t make me sleep, it makes me really crazy. When I smoke it I get really hyper and weird. I become so introspective that when I think about what I do for a living I’ll totally have a panic attack. I’m like “Oh my god, I sing songs…. What the fuck am I doing?” It’s crazy!

*It sort of feels like you’ve take advantage of life in a certain way, like you’re fucking the natural order. I think you would feel like “Yeahhhh, fuck you, world!”*

Well, I do feel like that, kind of. I would rather fucking die than have a normal job again. Especially now that I haven’t had to work for a year, the thought of going back to a regular life…even though what I’m doing now is obviously really difficult and lonely and weird, I just don’t want to end up like my parents. Why would you work at a job that sucks, to pay rent, just to have a place to live so you can work a job? That thought horrifies me so much. I think you shouldn’t have to work. Everyone spends eight hours a day with something they don’t wanna do, thats terrible. That’s like a nightmare. I’ve done a few things that I didn’t necessarily wanna do but I needed the money, but at the end of the day who cares? It doesn’t matter that much.

*Definitely there should be a change in the structure of the world, and I really feel like it’s sort of leading up to that. Both in the economy and…*

The music industry?

*That, and…it just feels like there’s a shift in the way that the world is working lately.*

I feel like our generation is trying to figure out where it stands. I think a lot of shit is probably gonna change in the next ten years pretty drastically. It’s hard to fight against the baby boomers, though. There’s a lot of them.

*I guess moving to Berlin was another form of escapism as well for me.*

Berlin is like, I dunno….I like it here.

*It’s amazing, its so much easier here than in New York, and that in itself is a trap because you get here and everything is just so lined up for you. And it makes you a bit complacent.*

Well maybe, I guess it depends. When shit is too easy, that can be a problem.

Most of the best things in life suck a lot. The things I look back on with the fondest memories, I also have this sort of knowledge in the back of my head saying “you were having a terrible time while that was actually happening”. If you don’t suffer then you’re not getting anything.

*So did you suffer for this album?*

Yeah, but it was good suffering. The album is like a representation of everything shitty that ever happened to me. I feel like this last year was just me being “okay, everything you’ve been traumatized by you’re gonna get the fuck over, and you’re not gonna fucking cry about this bullshit anymore and it’s gonna go away.” New life, blank slate.

*What particular trauma was ‘Be A Body’ about?*

That’s one of the only happy songs on the album. It’s about physical existence, and sex, and being alive. I’m really opposed to phones, I’m opposed to checking my email. I just think it’s really unflattering that everyone’s always on their computer. ‘Be A Body’ is about physical, sensual existence and about having physical pain and pleasure. It’s about existence. As pretentious as it is, it’s based on a Thomas Aquinas quote where he was trying to talk about how in Medieval Christian thought everyone was super into ‘fuck my life, my physical body is a horrible thing and a representation of sin’, and there’s a passage where Aquinas said “Be a body” and i just thought it was so sick, so bad-ass that he would just say that, just give that straight-up imperative. He was a hip guy.

*So it’s a celebratory song.*

Yes, but it’s also an assault. It’s me being aggressive.

*Do you think that’s going to be more of a fixture in your music from here on?*

I think my music is becoming a lot more aggressive. I’m going more in that direction. This was the second-to-last song I wrote on the album, and it also was one of the only songs on the album that I didn’t write in a single day. I think that’s a good thing, to not just make something and let it go.

*Visions is out February 21st on 4AD.*

### Essay

**Grimes on the importance of Marilyn Manson**

Published July 10, 2012.

I started listening to Marilyn Manson when I was about thirteen or fourteen, and I had been raised in a really strict Catholic household and went to a really Catholic school. It sucked and Marilyn Manson represented the antithesis of all the things I was dealing with at the time. I know it’s a juvenile way to see it, but when everything is one way and you’re headed in the opposite direction, it can have a profound effect on your life. For my parents, Manson was the epitome of everything that was bad and wrong, which is why I immediately started wearing eyeliner all the time and white face make-up. They were like, “You look like the devil!” They couldn’t stand it. I mean, I don’t know what the devil looks like, but I imagine Manson wants other people to think that he’s pretty much the spitting image—the opposite of what white Christian America thinks looks “reasonable”. I know a lot of the things he does are also in reaction to his upbringing, so it makes sense that he’d have that same influence.

In retrospect, I’ve come to appreciate Manson’s stage performances even more. He’s basically an aggressive, violent performance artist who makes industrial and noise music and, in spite of all that, became a platinum selling pop icon. I credit him with introducing the visual and musical aesthetics of Throbbing Gristle and Genesis P-Orridge to a whole generation of people who would never have seen it otherwise. Some of it was timing and some of it was just being really smart about what he was doing. I suppose Nine Inch Nails had a similar thing, but Manson took it to another level, another extreme. People today look down on what they consider “shock rock” and Marilyn Manson’s definitely not one of the most “respected” artists right now. I’m convinced he’s one of the most underrated, because I don’t think art and music are necessarily separable, and the visual component of music, the presentation, is something that’s important for people to latch on to in pop. The classical world doesn’t produce the same kind of personalities. I mean, you have like, Yo-Yo Ma, but for the most part classical musicians wear black ties and suits and don’t reveal anything about their personalities. They play other peoples’ music. In contrast, pop musicians sell themselves, which is equally as important as the music they make. I don’t think that’s a bad thing at all.

I’ve never met Marilyn Manson, but I’d love to. I’m just not sure I’m in that “club” yet. It’s not like I don’t view myself as successful, but there are two tiers of success: artistic and commercial. Currently, artistic success takes precedence for me: I get more excited about finishing a track or an album than having my face on the cover of a magazine or people recognizing me on the street. The latter is a measure of success, but I’m not sure how much credit I could really take for that because there’s an entire marketing machine behind that, thrusting your image into the spotlight. On the other hand, I know a lot of people get really down when they receive bad reviews, but that often has nothing to do with the art.

Marilyn Manson was what got me thinking about art and music seriously. Before that, I had been very into ballet and other “normal” things. And then when I was thirteen, I was like, “Fuck it.” I shaved my head and that was the beginning of a decade of being completely ostracized. In school, pretty much everyone hated me and were like, “Claire’s a freak.” I got locked in lockers and thrown in garbage cans. People wrote “Whore!” and “Bitch!” all over my stuff. It was because of how I looked, and I was very extreme about it because I was obsessed with Marilyn Manson. It defined my social engagement with the world. I recognize that it’s silly, but Manson is how I learned that it’s OK to be an outcast; it’s what gave me faith in the things that I was doing artistically. My ability to ignore bad reviews is strongly connected to that. It’s a part of who I am. I just don’t give a shit, and that’s something my parents haven’t made total peace with. They’re still not down with my art and lifestyle because they’re so conservative and I guess they just don’t understand blogs and Internet success. Occasionally, I think my dad would rather see me unsuccessful than have people liking my art with me looking and acting the way I do. ~

### Interview

**Self-Liberating: an interview with Grimes**

Published January 03 and 04, 2013. Words by Max Dax.

After the constant hype of 2012, the nonstop touring and the progressively larger shows, things have finally settled down again for *Claire Boucher* and her musical alter-ego *Grimes*. The sudden spotlight thrust upon her following her 4AD debut *Visions* has shone brightly, but also—from her perspective—glaringly. Now in the process of rediscovering her solitude in the dark forests of British Columbia, Boucher has managed to shrug off the creative restraints that have accompanied her unexpected indie popstar dasein and reenter the introverted world of production and songwriting to which she’s accustomed. Whether the result will be branching out further into the realm of ethereal, wallflower-pop or a percussive noise album (rumors abound), depends on what she finds in the woods. Or what finds her.

*Claire, I heard you are seriously ill and had to cancel your European tour in November and December?*

No, I am not seriously ill. But yes, I have problems with my ears. My doctor says if I’d be doing concerts right now, I’d risk serious and lasting hearing problems. Taking a break was an obvious decision.

*Glad to hear it’s nothing too serious. We met once in the lobby of the Prague Hilton prior to your show at the Electronic Beats Festival. You seemed a bit like a fish out of water. The whole building felt like a fortress to protect the wealthy tourists or arms dealers or whoever was staying there from the people outside. And there you were with your punk haircut and tattoos.*

I remember. Actually, I think that my Prague show was one of the best performances of that tour.

*Don’t you sometimes wonder, “How the hell did I get here?” Not too long ago you were giving free concerts for your friends at La Brique or the Torn Curtain in Montreal—both simple, DIY venues.*

Well, one thing’s for sure: at the moment, it’s hard for me to write songs for my new album. It’s not easy for me when I get to thinking about other people’s opinions and how they might comment on what I do. I have trouble thinking about fulfilling expectations. I’ve even started fake bands with no specific intention of doing anything with the result. But at least it’s allowed me to work somehow. The situation in Montreal at La Brique was different to how my life is now. For almost a year now, I’ve been on tour non-stop. There were people around me twenty-four-seven. Being able to write again requires me to really be detached from social life, I guess.

*Did you write Visions in seclusion?*

Yes. I often do my best work when I can be completely absorbed by it. It was the same thing in high school with math. It’s always been about losing myself and losing track of time. I remember meditating on a math problem for over four hours, and only snapping out of it when I had to go to the bathroom. Those were the times when I could really feel the progress. It’s always a good sign to realize that six hours just disappeared. To see how time dissolves can be a powerful experience, and it’s one I miss. Because it’s one thing to talk about stuff and it’s another to actually commit to doing it; to solve a math problem or make music. Not being too self-aware in the process is also really important.

*So it’s in a trance-like state that you get your best results?*

Probably, yeah.

*In a recent interview with The Guardian you mentioned that you didn’t sleep, eat or meet people for nine days in order to gain a more intense connection to your subconscious, which made it easier for you to write the lyrics for your last album Visions. Would you call that a spiritual experience?*

I don’t know if I would call it spiritual. I’m not religious, even though I was raised in a religious household. I know a lot of younger people who just take some of the ceremonial aspects of religion and use them like some kind of backdrop. Especially when you look at the Canadian noise music scenes these days. They are very ceremonial, almost cult-like. You mentioned La Brique and the Torn Curtain in Montreal. In these places, when people would gather for a noise show, it would be for, like, seven hours. That can get pretty intense, you know? I guess these happenings serve as a substitute for a kind of religious experience they were missing otherwise.

*A seven-hour show? That’s intense.*

And don’t forget the temperatures in Montreal. It can get very, very cold in winter. Once you meet somewhere, you tend to stay there. Knowing that, musicians relate to it in a special way. It’s funny though, because the more successful I get, the less I find myself in places like that. There are a lot of spaces in Berlin like that too, right?

*Absolutely. There are still some spaces that aren’t spoiled yet. But a lot of former artist-run spaces have become pretty commercial. Things have become more difficult in Berlin.*

Berlin reminds me a lot of Montreal in a positive sense. Montreal is a pretty poor city, so its art and music scenes aren’t that big. Although with music it’s getting a lot bigger. I mean, Berlin isn’t rich, but its creative scene is so much bigger than Montreal’s. Both cities look back at a certain kind of DIY past that was formative in music history. We don’t have a club like the Berghain in Montreal, though. I mean, the Berghain seems so well organized behind the scenes. It’s pretty mind-blowing. I guess you could call it German efficiency.

*How big a step is it from the small experimental set-up to the skillfully staged concerts this year?*

Skillfully staged?

*It’s a bold statement performing your live shows as a one-woman band together with dancers. Without a band to handle you were in total control of the music, whereas the dancers got the crowds going. It’s a simple but very effective set-up.*

First of all, there wasn’t much “staging” involved. I just contacted my friends in any given city and convinced them to dance live during my performance. The dancers weren’t choreographed—they were drunk. In Prague I had three dancers, at the Berghain maybe ten. It seemed like everybody wanted to come and dance. It sort of got out of hand but I think it was a good show nonetheless.

*Apart from the fact that your dancers animate the crowd and provoke a reaction, they also come across as a kind of protection: you’re not alone on stage. Do you find that more comforting?*

I improvise a lot on stage. For instance, I record my voice while I sing and layer one voice recording on top of the other until I have a choir of sorts. And I do it on the spot. I sing, I sample, I arrange, I play. Having the dancers working the crowd relieves a lot of the pressure. It gives me the freedom to breathe and focus and dance. Having dancers onstage is good for my mental health. So, yes—they do help me feel comfortable. I mean, theoretically, I could perform the same music without them. But I doubt I could do it as easily. I probably couldn’t improvise that much if I felt uncomfortable.

*Are the avant-garde or European improv scenes at all on your radar? People like Peter Brötzmann or Oren Ambarchi?*

Less so, but I’m aware of the history of improvisational music, and I have spent time listening to music like that in the past. Because what I play is improvised, it’s actually easier for me to perform somehow. It makes it harder for me to “screw up”, because I’m never destroying a carefully planned and rehearsed set. Nobody notices mistakes but me. Audiences assume it’s part of the show. But also the songs I perform live aren’t perfect replicas of the ones on record. All of my shows are different, to a certain extent. I mean, that should be the nature of any live performance by any performer, be it Madonna or be it some improvisational free jazz thing, no?

*At a Madonna concert nothing is improvised.*

Because she depends on a lot of other people, musical and otherwise. For me, playing alone is a luxury. If there were other musicians, it would certainly be much harder to keep that improvisational level up. With six people performing together on stage I couldn’t just change the set list just because I think it would make sense. But changing a set list could be essential when it comes to the dynamics of a live show if you ask me.

*You said you sometimes invent fake bands—with real members other than yourself?*

Certainly. Just like I invite the dancers onstage, I sometimes invite musicians to perform with me live. But I always take care not to tell them what to do. I try to make sure that there is a basis for everyone involved so that a live show can be built on the concept of improvisation. I encourage them to contribute something unexpected. I want them to do whatever they want. That’s why I picked them. I want to see what happens, not know in advance.

*In another interview you’ve mentioned Andrei Tarkovsky, Lars von Trier and Werner Herzog as influences. How does that fit into the equation?*

Film is probably my favorite medium. If I had more time and money, I probably would work more with film because emotionally it’s so much more effective than music. In a good film music is just a part of the whole. Music is an aspect. I regard film as a total medium that incorporates all other art forms in essential ways. Tarkovsky is probably my favorite filmmaker, because sinister things in his movies are always so subtle. Take Solaris—or even better, Stalker. Stalker to me is just such a cool movie. It’s almost like a horror movie in the traditional sense because it’s so goddamn scary. It’s fascinating to see that Tarkovsky doesn’t need a mon- ster or a bloody zombie to create that atmosphere of horror. It’s a totally intellectual kind of horror, but it affects you emotionally. It’s extremely thought-out. But it’s also astoundingly simple.

*What about Solaris?*

It’s so scary how Kris Kelvin is confronted with his most traumatic memories at the space station. That’s true horror. I don’t see how it can be taken any further. I discovered Tarkovsky because I studied Russian in college and had this intense desire to watch Russian films. I like his *total* approach to film as art, especially when it comes to music.

*And how does that relate to what you do?*

When I compose I consciously try not to overly reference the pop world. You can evoke a spiritual level within your music when you allow yourself to be inspired by other things—Hildegard von Bingen for instance. All the layering of vocals in my music comes from the experience of listening to her liturgical songs. When I pile up twenty vocal layers it’s reminiscent, at least for me, of medieval or Renaissance chorales. I try to incorporate these elements into the concept of pop music to find some kind of new middle ground.

*In terms of method it’s a kind of copy-and-paste, no?*

I’m not sure I’d call it that. Listening to a choir or devotional music is extremely emotional for me, and I try to figure out why it touches me the way it does. If I can see a pattern in the music, I try to make it work for me too. But I want to get back to Tarkovsky briefly. I know lots of people my age who say that his films are too long, too slow and too intense. They don’t want to be lulled into his contemplative pace, and it’s hard to accept a movie that’s three- and-a-half hours long these days. But I can absolutely imagine taking abstract elements from Tarkovsky and implanting them into my music.

*Nobody objects to the time commitment when it comes to The Lord of the Rings.*

[laughing] That’s true. I actually watched all three parts again pretty recently.

*On the big screen or your iPhone? Alec Empire recently told me how fascinating it’s been for him to watch the trilogy on the tiny iPhone screen with earplugs.*

Actually, I don’t have an iPhone. My friend has a big TV. It’s a twelve-hour endeavor. But for me it’s not a contradiction to con- sume both high culture and Harry Potter or some Japanese mangas. Pop art still appeals to me the most. I guess it has to do with the way I grew up in the 2000s. I like to see a film like Kill Bill as much as I do like watching Solaris. Both experiences are potentially inspiring. Or take dancing: lots of people say that dancing is just a waste of time, but to me it marks a key difference between animals and human beings. It takes a high level of intelligence to interpret music, especially as something you can dance to. It’s spiritual. It’s liberating. If someone can make you dance to their music, it’s a pretty amazing skill. Same goes for all the pop art that touches you emotionally in a split second. I can’t see anything negative in that. I sometimes get the impression that people mistrust their feelings. I try not to do that, just like I try and trust simple ideas and things that are stripped down to the bare essentials. I think it’s a sign of having mastered something.

*Are you referring to your own music?*

Actually, I would say it’s true of the last Katy Perry record. There are so many people who call her songs easy and so cheap, but to use elements of pop that so many people have used before and still make such an amazing record—that’s awesome. I mean, her songwriting is really on parade, as is the production. A million people are trying to make pop songs all the time, and you’ll listen to all sorts of failed attempts on the radio every day. To succeed in a medium that everyone is working in is a huge achievement, if you ask me. It takes a lot of intelligence and talent for sure.

*Did you always dance to your own music on stage?*

That’s a damn good question. Let me think. I used to dance for another group when they were giving concerts, so dancing onstage was already natural for me when I started doing my own shit. But I think that for the first few gigs I had to focus so much more on my musical performance that I probably didn’t feel laid-back enough to do it. But this changed and nowadays it feels totally natural for me.

*You studied ballet for a couple of years. Did that make a difference for you at all?*

More off stage than anywhere else. I love to dance socially. A lot of my friends make dance music and whenever they play, I dance. Before I had my ear problem I spent a lot of time in studios where they were recording, I’d be dancing to the monitor sound from around the mixing desk. At the DIY venues and in Montreal in general we used to dance all the time. Dancing with friends should not be underestimated.

*You’re staying in Vancouver at the moment, far away from Montreal and its big music scene. How has being away from that affected you?*

I will be spending the afternoon looking for a house, a cabin in the woods to seclude myself from the civilized world for a little while. I’m going back to recording soon, so it’s time to get away from people again. As I said before, making music is a solitary act for me. Other people just become intruders. That’s why I’m looking for a really remote place to spend the winter. I am really looking forward to staying far away, deep in the woods, snowed in. The more time you spend away from people the less you hear them commenting. It’s as simple as that. When I’m alone I can refocus. I haven’t really been alone in the past year, and I’m just not made to work on new music after a show in my hotel room. I’m fully aware of the fact that you can go crazy when you’re all alone. I like to think of it as crazy in a good way, though. More manic, really.

*Is it at all typically Canadian to need to escape to the woods?*

Actually, most of my friends think that I’m crazy. My parents are pretty concerned, too. So, no, it’s not very typical I’d say. But it’s interesting here because Canada is just a big white wasteland in winter.

*Dan Snaith said that Canada’s icy winters are inspiring.*

My grandparents lived in the mountains of British Columbia. I spent a lot of my childhood there, but the last six years I lived in Montreal. Now, being back in Vancouver, I’ve only started to realize what I’ve been missing in Montreal. I totally forgot how big an emotional impact the woods must have made on me. Ancient forests were, like, my natural surroundings until I turned eighteen and left B.C. for the big city. Being back here, everything feels so calming. I’m much more relaxed these days.

*The way you talk about the woods reminds me of Twin Peaks.*

The northern landscape is just so big and violent. Of course, Twin Peaks took place just south of the border. B.C. is the perfect environment to shoot films like that or the Twilight series because it’s so scary here with the dark forests and thick fog and shadowy mountains . . . so sinister and beautiful at the same time. When you walk in the forest at night it’s an almost spiritual scariness. It feels haunted. I think the woods are haunted.

*Really?*

Yeah, and movies exploit that really well. Space too. It’s just like the tagline from Alien: “In space no one can hear you scream.” When I go to New York and end up in the Bronx at night, it can be scary too. But it’s different if you’re afraid of getting mugged or if you’re afraid of mass murderers. It’s Silence of the Lambs scary. A friend of mine lives in Corpus Christi, Texas, right on the Mexican border. That’s what you’d call a dangerous town because of all the random drug murders. But I find the psychological threat of Twin Peaks so much scarier than the real, physical one. It’s not a coincidence that Vancouver had a massive industrial Goth scene in the eighties—the most prominent band being Skinny Puppy. The intense, emotional music from B.C. derives from a very specific temperament. ~

## References

1. ↑ https://www.electronicbeats.net/the-visions-the-voice-an-interview-with-grimes/
2. ↑ https://www.electronicbeats.net/mr-style-icon-grimes-on-the-importance-of-marilyn-manson/
3. ↑ https://www.electronicbeats.net/self-liberating-an-interview-with-grimes/
4. ↑ https://www.electronicbeats.net/self-liberating-an-interview-with-grimes-part-2/