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On Aug 15, 2015 9:14 PM Danielus wrote:

On Aug 15, 2015 6:06 PM Magdal wrote:

I was with my husband in a german clinic He has pancreatic cancer we spent a fortune for a period of 4 week treatments They gave some antibodies tretment and ofcourse Lots of infusion but my message to everyone is There are no doctors out there who will try to help you genuinly Or have passion for curing people they are all trying to make money And doing research in germany or else where on your funds They do not realise at end stage time and money is so Much precious for the patients family Please have strong faith and make any alternate treatment descions Carefully like I said there arent dr's who are trying to help Cancer is just another bussiness MagdaMagdal, what were the treatments your husband had in Germany? What were the IVs? I agree that there are very few doctors that are more balanced towards the patient vs. money, unfortunately. That includes the alternative doctors.
Very much appreciate all of your statements--but the one about "there are  very few doctors that are more balanced towards the patient vs. money (including alternative) truly hit home.

We had much hope with an out-of-the-country clinic (not European)--then, after paying a small fortune, were completely ignored when my case worsened.  Questions went unanswered--pleas for help totally dismissed.

Unceremoniously dumped, so to speak--so much for trust and misplaced respect for the staff there.  And just what seriously ill patients need--a psychological/emotional blow on top of their illness.  They had the money--the patient was left adrift.  And always thought there was a good existing relationship.  Remind me not to be naiive anymore!  But I had to remind myself not to let their bad actions change my core--of what I wanted to be--better, NOT bitter.  One vowel--makes a difference....

I am sure I was not the first to experience this either.   So I am truly happy to have this thread and the hope it has given to me.  Sensitive, caring, intelligent persons--what a breath of fresh of air!!!

Both conventional and alternative doctors have both the good and  the greedy, unfortunately.   No one expects free care--but to be fleeced and left without any direction--that is unconscionable.

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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sat Aug 15, 2015 08:56 PM
Quote | ReplyI thought there might be a few cheque written cancer treatments gone wrong stories on the thread.

This might even be true of conventional treatments. Some of the new generation of approved cancer therapies can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, sometimes the new style of response does not result in a noticeable reduction in tumor burden and the increase in life expectancy can marginal if not absent.

For me this highlights the benficial qualities of the new generation of metabolic drugs that I mentioned in my previous post. Clinics showing good faith would allow patients the opportunity to determine if they were a first responder to 3-BP by allowing a pay as you go treatment.

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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Sat Aug 15, 2015 08:58 PM

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On Aug 15, 2015 11:18 PM Jcancom wrote:

What I was trying to do was help patients have a strategy going in. So many of them simply go to the clinic and hand over a blank cheque: Often they will wind up having wasted their precious time and money. The new poster appears to have spent quite a bit of money at a clinic and now seems regretful.

Giving patients a simple rational plan would take away all the concerns that would likely result in them endlessly delaying or mulling over what they should do.

Several people on this thread are very aware of the research evidence supporting 3-BP, though they have still resisted writing a cheque for 20-30K. They would then still not be sure whether there would be a response or how long it would last.

The simple strategy that I suggested would for most patients be entirely affordable and seem entirely sensible. Too many times customers go to the show room and before they know it the salesmen have convinced them they need a whole new living room set when all they wanted was a chair.

People need to be better consumers of medicine. They need to carefully think as a gambler would whether the ante is worth it. Many people do not think the 20-30K 3-BP ante is worth it.

My idea is to make anteing up an easy choice. In the scenario I have suggested, the ante is now 1K and verification of response or non-response can happen immediately after first treatment. For many it should now be totally obvious to them what to do.

Pre-metabolic cancer treatments required extended periods of time to demonstrate response (A fact well noted by snake oil salesmen.) Cutting off the energy pathway for cancer can result in a response in minutes. Both published patient 3-BP reports and several anecdotal reports on this thread have noted such immediate symptomatic benefit.

My strategy can then end there.

There is no specific need to provide any guidance on what the follow through strategy would be. Patients could consider this issue for themselves.

Using this strategy with only a very modest ante one will know whether there was a response or not. This is a remarkable payback and would seem a very shrewd gamble.

If they had a response or even if they did not have a response, they would know that they had acted wisely. They had at least given themselves some chance of experiencing a response similar to the profound reponses to 3-BP that have been noted on this thread.

I am sure many more than the new poster would have wished they had made this bet instead of the likely tens of thousands dollars they have spent on treatments that were probably entirely futile.

J, a few people are taking 3BP continuously. I assume it is working for them in some way. Our bloodwork came back minus the LDH by the way. Very frustrating!
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by dumbcritic on Sat Aug 15, 2015 09:42 PM
Quote | Reply*The patient received 3BP intravenous infusions (1-2.2 mg/kg), but the anticancer effect was minimal as indicated by a high serum LDH level. This may have been due to high tumor GSH (glutathione) content. On combining oral paracetamol, which depletes tumor GSH, with 3BP treatment, serum LDH level dropped maximally* and *If the anticancer effectiveness of 3BP is less than expected, the combination with paracetamol may be needed to sensitize cancer cells to 3BP-induced effects* http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4110469/
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by dumbcritic on Sat Aug 15, 2015 09:42 PM
Quote | ReplyAnti-PD1/PDL-1 non-response rates for melanoma are 60-88%, triple neg breast it's 70-82%, renal cell 71%, lung 79-83%, head & neck 80%, bladder 84% and gastric 69%. One of the reasons, if not the main reason is most have no immune responce to thier cancer. So using these drugs won't be able to *take the brakes off* the immune cells to allow them to kill the cancer cells. Keytruda is an Anti-PD1
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Meech90 on Sat Aug 15, 2015 09:47 PM

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On Aug 16, 2015 12:58 AM Moonlitnight wrote:

On Aug 15, 2015 11:18 PM Jcancom wrote:

What I was trying to do was help patients have a strategy going in. So many of them simply go to the clinic and hand over a blank cheque: Often they will wind up having wasted their precious time and money. The new poster appears to have spent quite a bit of money at a clinic and now seems regretful.

Giving patients a simple rational plan would take away all the concerns that would likely result in them endlessly delaying or mulling over what they should do.

Several people on this thread are very aware of the research evidence supporting 3-BP, though they have still resisted writing a cheque for 20-30K. They would then still not be sure whether there would be a response or how long it would last.

The simple strategy that I suggested would for most patients be entirely affordable and seem entirely sensible. Too many times customers go to the show room and before they know it the salesmen have convinced them they need a whole new living room set when all they wanted was a chair.

People need to be better consumers of medicine. They need to carefully think as a gambler would whether the ante is worth it. Many people do not think the 20-30K 3-BP ante is worth it.

My idea is to make anteing up an easy choice. In the scenario I have suggested, the ante is now 1K and verification of response or non-response can happen immediately after first treatment. For many it should now be totally obvious to them what to do.

Pre-metabolic cancer treatments required extended periods of time to demonstrate response (A fact well noted by snake oil salesmen.) Cutting off the energy pathway for cancer can result in a response in minutes. Both published patient 3-BP reports and several anecdotal reports on this thread have noted such immediate symptomatic benefit.

My strategy can then end there.

There is no specific need to provide any guidance on what the follow through strategy would be. Patients could consider this issue for themselves.

Using this strategy with only a very modest ante one will know whether there was a response or not. This is a remarkable payback and would seem a very shrewd gamble.

If they had a response or even if they did not have a response, they would know that they had acted wisely. They had at least given themselves some chance of experiencing a response similar to the profound reponses to 3-BP that have been noted on this thread.

I am sure many more than the new poster would have wished they had made this bet instead of the likely tens of thousands dollars they have spent on treatments that were probably entirely futile.

J, a few people are taking 3BP continuously. I assume it is working for them in some way. Our bloodwork came back minus the LDH by the way. Very frustrating!
Have they spiked or stagnated or?Quote | ReplyMore Sharing ServicesShare Share on email Share on facebook Share on twitter Moonlitnight

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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Sat Aug 15, 2015 09:48 PM

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On Aug 16, 2015 1:47 AM Meech90 wrote:

On Aug 16, 2015 12:58 AM Moonlitnight wrote:

On Aug 15, 2015 11:18 PM Jcancom wrote:

What I was trying to do was help patients have a strategy going in. So many of them simply go to the clinic and hand over a blank cheque: Often they will wind up having wasted their precious time and money. The new poster appears to have spent quite a bit of money at a clinic and now seems regretful.

Giving patients a simple rational plan would take away all the concerns that would likely result in them endlessly delaying or mulling over what they should do.

Several people on this thread are very aware of the research evidence supporting 3-BP, though they have still resisted writing a cheque for 20-30K. They would then still not be sure whether there would be a response or how long it would last.

The simple strategy that I suggested would for most patients be entirely affordable and seem entirely sensible. Too many times customers go to the show room and before they know it the salesmen have convinced them they need a whole new living room set when all they wanted was a chair.

People need to be better consumers of medicine. They need to carefully think as a gambler would whether the ante is worth it. Many people do not think the 20-30K 3-BP ante is worth it.

My idea is to make anteing up an easy choice. In the scenario I have suggested, the ante is now 1K and verification of response or non-response can happen immediately after first treatment. For many it should now be totally obvious to them what to do.

Pre-metabolic cancer treatments required extended periods of time to demonstrate response (A fact well noted by snake oil salesmen.) Cutting off the energy pathway for cancer can result in a response in minutes. Both published patient 3-BP reports and several anecdotal reports on this thread have noted such immediate symptomatic benefit.

My strategy can then end there.

There is no specific need to provide any guidance on what the follow through strategy would be. Patients could consider this issue for themselves.

Using this strategy with only a very modest ante one will know whether there was a response or not. This is a remarkable payback and would seem a very shrewd gamble.

If they had a response or even if they did not have a response, they would know that they had acted wisely. They had at least given themselves some chance of experiencing a response similar to the profound reponses to 3-BP that have been noted on this thread.

I am sure many more than the new poster would have wished they had made this bet instead of the likely tens of thousands dollars they have spent on treatments that were probably entirely futile.

J, a few people are taking 3BP continuously. I assume it is working for them in some way. Our bloodwork came back minus the LDH by the way. Very frustrating!
Have they spiked or stagnated or?I don't know... We haven't had any response yet.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sat Aug 15, 2015 09:55 PM
Quote | ReplyYes, I did not understand those quotes either. They are not consistent with the response to first treatment shown in Figure 3.

A first monotherapy range finding dose of IV 3-BP of 1 mg/kg moved LDH down from 4300 on September 18 (pre-dose ?) to 3100 on September 19. I do not understand how a 1200 point decline in LDH in one day could be considered as minimal. Did they expect to immediately vaporize his tumors? Success and failure are relative terms.

Such a dramatic decline on first treatment would put this patient in the responder category. Amplifying the response with paracetamol etc. could then be tried Every subsequent treatment after first response for this patient and the liver patient had a positive therapeutic effect. These patients are very good examples illustrating how my strategy would be applied: First obtain a first response to 3-BP.

Immediately after his treatment, he felt better just as the liver patient did: "At the end of infusion, the patient was in a good general condition, lying comfortably in bed and being able to sit, stand, and walk. He went to the toilet and his appetite improved."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4110469/
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:10 PM
Quote | ReplyThe precise control that the doctors had on the LDH numbers as illustrated in Figure 3 is very impressive. Right from the first treatment they had almost absolute control over the LDH numbers.

They treated once and got a large initial LDH response and then they let the LDH bounce back to the pre-treatment level. Having this clear control over response allows for the conerns about TLS to lessen. As long as tumor burden is reduced over months instead of days then the risk of TLS would be reduced.

As they dosed up with mono 3-BP they retained complete control over the labs. It was only after the second combo 3-BP paracetamol that the LDH totally collapsed.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:19 PM
Quote | ReplyIt is quite funny how disappointed they seemed to be with the mono 3-BP treatments. Mono IV 3-BP doses of 1, 1, 1.5, 1.5, 1.5, 1.5, 2.2, and 2.2 only decreased LDH levels from a high of 4500 to a low of 2100 over a 15 day treatment interval. As they noted: "3BP treatment caused a moderate decrease in serum lactate dehydrogenase (LDH)."

OK, then. That is their definition of a mediocre response.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by JRW07 on Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:10 AM
Quote | ReplyI think there are a few other things that people should be aware of.

3BP can cause low sodium (hyponatremia).  This is worse when the tumor bulk is large

3BP can cause significant edema (also with large bulk)

3BP has not shown great responses in bone mets

The resurgance of tumor growth after 3BP.  This can occur after stopping, once the tumor becomes resistant or if the patient cannont tolerate enough treatments and or dosage to inhibit tumor growth.  Keep in mind that the tumors will feel starved and can respond aggresively.  This is very much like what can be seen with TACE.  It doesn't always happen, but very bad when it does.  Also the excessive apoptotic death creates a high tumor antigen load, which actually overwhelms the immune system, creating an anergic response.  This essentially shuts off the immune system to the cancer.

Many tumor types, like liver and pancreas are better treated by intra-arterial instead of IV.  Lung may respond to IV, but sometimes requires administration through the bronchial artery.  If your delivery to the tumor is not effective, it will not see enough dose to kill the cancer, and may make it more aggressive.  Think of the cancer as mouths you have to feed and 3BP as food.  If you don't have enough, as if the tumor volume is to large, then some will not get fed.  This means that it is not enough to kill them, only to make them feel starved.  The tumor responds by increasing VEGF, other growth factors, or moving to other locations (metastasis). You will also get the same response if you put the food in the wrong location.  As in giving it IV when it should be intra-tumoral or intra-arterial.

I hope this info is helpful.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:22 AM

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On Aug 16, 2015 4:10 AM JRW07 wrote:

I think there are a few other things that people should be aware of.

3BP can cause low sodium (hyponatremia).  This is worse when the tumor bulk is large

3BP can cause significant edema (also with large bulk)

3BP has not shown great responses in bone mets

The resurgance of tumor growth after 3BP.  This can occur after stopping, once the tumor becomes resistant or if the patient cannont tolerate enough treatments and or dosage to inhibit tumor growth.  Keep in mind that the tumors will feel starved and can respond aggresively.  This is very much like what can be seen with TACE.  It doesn't always happen, but very bad when it does.  Also the excessive apoptotic death creates a high tumor antigen load, which actually overwhelms the immune system, creating an anergic response.  This essentially shuts off the immune system to the cancer.

Many tumor types, like liver and pancreas are better treated by intra-arterial instead of IV.  Lung may respond to IV, but sometimes requires administration through the bronchial artery.  If your delivery to the tumor is not effective, it will not see enough dose to kill the cancer, and may make it more aggressive.  Think of the cancer as mouths you have to feed and 3BP as food.  If you don't have enough, as if the tumor volume is to large, then some will not get fed.  This means that it is not enough to kill them, only to make them feel starved.  The tumor responds by increasing VEGF, other growth factors, or moving to other locations (metastasis). You will also get the same response if you put the food in the wrong location.  As in giving it IV when it should be intra-tumoral or intra-arterial.

I hope this info is helpful.
Yes, it is very helpful, and very disturbing, particularly since my guy has large tumour load and mostly in the bones. Are you a medical doctor? A researcher? An oncologist? Not that credentials are particularly relevant but I would like to know your actual experience of the effects you have noted here. Many thanks.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by JRW07 on Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:32 AM
Quote | ReplyWithout giving much details, yes I am an MD.  And yes, I know 3BP very well.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by sumeetnag on Sun Aug 16, 2015 05:27 AM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 16, 2015 4:10 AM JRW07 wrote:

I think there are a few other things that people should be aware of.

3BP can cause low sodium (hyponatremia).  This is worse when the tumor bulk is large

3BP can cause significant edema (also with large bulk)

3BP has not shown great responses in bone mets

The resurgance of tumor growth after 3BP.  This can occur after stopping, once the tumor becomes resistant or if the patient cannont tolerate enough treatments and or dosage to inhibit tumor growth.  Keep in mind that the tumors will feel starved and can respond aggresively.  This is very much like what can be seen with TACE.  It doesn't always happen, but very bad when it does.  Also the excessive apoptotic death creates a high tumor antigen load, which actually overwhelms the immune system, creating an anergic response.  This essentially shuts off the immune system to the cancer.

Many tumor types, like liver and pancreas are better treated by intra-arterial instead of IV.  Lung may respond to IV, but sometimes requires administration through the bronchial artery.  If your delivery to the tumor is not effective, it will not see enough dose to kill the cancer, and may make it more aggressive.  Think of the cancer as mouths you have to feed and 3BP as food.  If you don't have enough, as if the tumor volume is to large, then some will not get fed.  This means that it is not enough to kill them, only to make them feel starved.  The tumor responds by increasing VEGF, other growth factors, or moving to other locations (metastasis). You will also get the same response if you put the food in the wrong location.  As in giving it IV when it should be intra-tumoral or intra-arterial.

I hope this info is helpful.
This is very refreshing and extremely helpful. To hear an honest feedback from someone who has first hand experience of 3bp.

So far no matter whichever door we knocked, everyone has been over protective of their knowledge of 3bp.

We still do not know :

1) The safest most stable way to administer 3 BP in different types and stages of cancer

2) How long is 3bp stable and how long can it remain active inside the body. The rumoured 30-60 minute lifespan might not be enough and will require long cycles.

3) What synergists are needed for glutathione and fatty metabolic inhibitants?

4) The duration of maintenance post the initial cycles. What side effects appear and what should be monitored on a daily basis apart from LDH levels.

I appreciate the post from JRW07 because he has honestly put forward his experience and enlightened us. Will appreciate if anyone on the forum can specifically answer the 4 queries.

I understand the discussion on various synergists and what we individually might think will work but experience of JRW07 is priceless at this point for those who are taking this risk.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Sun Aug 16, 2015 05:49 AM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 16, 2015 4:10 AM JRW07 wrote:

I think there are a few other things that people should be aware of.

3BP can cause low sodium (hyponatremia).  This is worse when the tumor bulk is large

3BP can cause significant edema (also with large bulk)

3BP has not shown great responses in bone mets

The resurgance of tumor growth after 3BP.  This can occur after stopping, once the tumor becomes resistant or if the patient cannont tolerate enough treatments and or dosage to inhibit tumor growth.  Keep in mind that the tumors will feel starved and can respond aggresively.  This is very much like what can be seen with TACE.  It doesn't always happen, but very bad when it does.  Also the excessive apoptotic death creates a high tumor antigen load, which actually overwhelms the immune system, creating an anergic response.  This essentially shuts off the immune system to the cancer.

Many tumor types, like liver and pancreas are better treated by intra-arterial instead of IV.  Lung may respond to IV, but sometimes requires administration through the bronchial artery.  If your delivery to the tumor is not effective, it will not see enough dose to kill the cancer, and may make it more aggressive.  Think of the cancer as mouths you have to feed and 3BP as food.  If you don't have enough, as if the tumor volume is to large, then some will not get fed.  This means that it is not enough to kill them, only to make them feel starved.  The tumor responds by increasing VEGF, other growth factors, or moving to other locations (metastasis). You will also get the same response if you put the food in the wrong location.  As in giving it IV when it should be intra-tumoral or intra-arterial.

I hope this info is helpful.

Dear JRW07, your contribution here is very appreciated. I am not sure if I can agree with the statements made but the fact that you are here contributing says something very positive about you.

While your statements do not have a clear scientific base, it is clear this is what you feel based on your experience.

Regarding 3BP creating low Na, I do not recognize that based on my experience. Just checked now blood tests to make sure. It may still be the case but than these are rare cases.

Regarding 3BP and edema, that may happen but again this is rare and may be side effect of many effective treatments.

3BP and bone mets. I do not have enough experience regarding the response of 3BP in bone mets. It may be the case. Based on this statement, should we understand that in your experience the other tumors show great response?

What do you think is the mechanism through which tumours become resistant to 3BP? I have an idea how that may happen (if is to happen) and what should be done against but I would like to know  your opinion on that first. Also, those tumors that are resistent to 3BP are still visible on PET or not in your experience?

Also interesting statement regarding TACE. I guess you are reffering to chemo via TACE triggering such processes as well? I have seen that as a result of chemo via TACE indeed.

Regarding your last paragraph related to not feeding enough tumours, how would you explain the huge response seen in the published melanoma case we discussed so much here using a relatively low dose 3BP IV?

If I zoom out and put all the points next to each other I canot fit 3BP into the story you paint but I can very much fit the typical chemo. While the statements you made regarding 3BP are in general negative (and I understand that since you represent a group of doctors who decide not to use 3BP anymore) I have the feeling that you still have a mixed feeling about 3BP that includes positive as well?

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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Sun Aug 16, 2015 06:02 AM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 15, 2015 8:01 AM Caddy wrote:

To mop up a few loose ends:

1. The so-called Saatchi Bill was vetoed by the Lib Dems just before they were obliterated at the last general election. However, it's been revived and is going through the motions as a private members bill - It's now called the Medical Treatments (Innovations) Bill. With a fair wind it could be made law before the end of this year, as both major parties support it.

2. However, that still might not open the door to drugs like 3BP. The conversation I had with a lead researcher suggested that most oncologists would be very reluctant to go outside of drugs that hadn't gone through clinical trials. The other concerns that this researcher had was that, currently, there's no requirement in the bill to document responses to novel treatments. This is a valid concern, and one I'd support. But, as most people follow whatever their oncologist recommends, it's doubtful that we'd see a swathe of new treatments being implemented - but at least it opens the door beyond surgery/radio/chemo.

3. It's heartening to know that there's a clinic in Bristol willing to try 3BP. Accessing the formulation/protocol is easy - it's in the public domain. I'm sure the clinic in Germany would share their knowledge. Danielus (or I) could help facilitate introductions. Dr Ko isn't the only source in this case!
Caddy, regarding the protocol on 3BP we use I indeed started to add info here. It will take some time to have eveything shared due to my limitted time. http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=47
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by JRW07 on Sun Aug 16, 2015 08:20 AM
Quote | ReplyDaniel,

It may be that you do not have much tumor bulk or it is not killing your tumor.  Keep in mind, I have 10 years of human experience with for all formulations.

The main resistance mechanisms are lactate and glutamate metabolism.  Also, poor delivery.  Often it is metabolized before reaching the tumor in high enough dose.  Take a look at the original rabbit studies.  That is why in some cases you need an intra-tumoral are intra-arterial approach.  Of course, all cases and tumor types are different.

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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by JRW07 on Sun Aug 16, 2015 08:23 AM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 16, 2015 9:27 AM sumeetnag wrote:

On Aug 16, 2015 4:10 AM JRW07 wrote:

I think there are a few other things that people should be aware of.

3BP can cause low sodium (hyponatremia).  This is worse when the tumor bulk is large

3BP can cause significant edema (also with large bulk)

3BP has not shown great responses in bone mets

The resurgance of tumor growth after 3BP.  This can occur after stopping, once the tumor becomes resistant or if the patient cannont tolerate enough treatments and or dosage to inhibit tumor growth.  Keep in mind that the tumors will feel starved and can respond aggresively.  This is very much like what can be seen with TACE.  It doesn't always happen, but very bad when it does.  Also the excessive apoptotic death creates a high tumor antigen load, which actually overwhelms the immune system, creating an anergic response.  This essentially shuts off the immune system to the cancer.

Many tumor types, like liver and pancreas are better treated by intra-arterial instead of IV.  Lung may respond to IV, but sometimes requires administration through the bronchial artery.  If your delivery to the tumor is not effective, it will not see enough dose to kill the cancer, and may make it more aggressive.  Think of the cancer as mouths you have to feed and 3BP as food.  If you don't have enough, as if the tumor volume is to large, then some will not get fed.  This means that it is not enough to kill them, only to make them feel starved.  The tumor responds by increasing VEGF, other growth factors, or moving to other locations (metastasis). You will also get the same response if you put the food in the wrong location.  As in giving it IV when it should be intra-tumoral or intra-arterial.

I hope this info is helpful.
This is very refreshing and extremely helpful. To hear an honest feedback from someone who has first hand experience of 3bp.

So far no matter whichever door we knocked, everyone has been over protective of their knowledge of 3bp.

We still do not know :

1) The safest most stable way to administer 3 BP in different types and stages of cancer

2) How long is 3bp stable and how long can it remain active inside the body. The rumoured 30-60 minute lifespan might not be enough and will require long cycles.

3) What synergists are needed for glutathione and fatty metabolic inhibitants?

4) The duration of maintenance post the initial cycles. What side effects appear and what should be monitored on a daily basis apart from LDH levels.

I appreciate the post from JRW07 because he has honestly put forward his experience and enlightened us. Will appreciate if anyone on the forum can specifically answer the 4 queries.

I understand the discussion on various synergists and what we individually might think will work but experience of JRW07 is priceless at this point for those who are taking this risk.
I think it will be best to discuss this info directly.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Sun Aug 16, 2015 09:17 AM

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On Aug 16, 2015 12:20 PM JRW07 wrote:

Daniel,

It may be that you do not have much tumor bulk or it is not killing your tumor.  Keep in mind, I have 10 years of human experience with for all formulations.

The main resistance mechanisms are lactate and glutamate metabolism.  Also, poor delivery.  Often it is metabolized before reaching the tumor in high enough dose.  Take a look at the original rabbit studies.  That is why in some cases you need an intra-tumoral are intra-arterial approach.  Of course, all cases and tumor types are different.

Dear JRW, could you please explain what excatly you mean by lactate and glutamate metabolism responsible for resistence? I am specifically curios about the lactate one. That would help.

Following the 10 years experience with 3BP, have you see people partialy ot completly cured with 3BP?

Also, how would you compare 3BP with Salinomycin in terms of effectivness?
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by JRW07 on Sun Aug 16, 2015 09:45 AM

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On Aug 16, 2015 1:17 PM Danielus wrote:

On Aug 16, 2015 12:20 PM JRW07 wrote:

Daniel,

It may be that you do not have much tumor bulk or it is not killing your tumor.  Keep in mind, I have 10 years of human experience with for all formulations.

The main resistance mechanisms are lactate and glutamate metabolism.  Also, poor delivery.  Often it is metabolized before reaching the tumor in high enough dose.  Take a look at the original rabbit studies.  That is why in some cases you need an intra-tumoral are intra-arterial approach.  Of course, all cases and tumor types are different.

Dear JRW, could you please explain what excatly you mean by lactate and glutamate metabolism responsible for resistence? I am specifically curios about the lactate one. That would help.

Following the 10 years experience with 3BP, have you see people partialy ot completly cured with 3BP?

Also, how would you compare 3BP with Salinomycin in terms of effectivness?
Daniel,

Would it be possible that I provide information to one member on this site and that person can then share the info.  If that will be you Daniel, please send me some direct contact info. Thanks
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Sun Aug 16, 2015 09:54 AM

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On Aug 16, 2015 1:45 PMJRW07wrote:

On Aug 16, 2015 1:17 PMDanieluswrote:

On Aug 16, 2015 12:20 PMJRW07wrote:

Daniel,

It may be that you do not have much tumor bulk or it is not killing your tumor.  Keep in mind, I have 10 years of human experience with for all formulations.

The main resistance mechanisms are lactate and glutamate metabolism.  Also, poor delivery.  Often it is metabolized before reaching the tumor in high enough dose.  Take a look at the original rabbit studies.  That is why in some cases you need an intra-tumoral are intra-arterial approach.  Of course, all cases and tumor types are different.

Dear JRW, could you please explain what excatly you mean by lactate and glutamate metabolism responsible for resistence? I am specifically curios about the lactate one. That would help.

Following the 10 years experience with 3BP, have you see people partialy ot completly cured with 3BP?

Also, how would you compare 3BP with Salinomycin in terms of effectivness?
Daniel,

Would it be possible that I provide information to one member on this site and that person can then share the info.  If that will be you Daniel, please send me some direct contact info. Thanks
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by JRW07 on Sun Aug 16, 2015 10:49 AM

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No worries Moonlitnight.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Sun Aug 16, 2015 10:54 AM

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Yes, haha, to us oldtimers ;)
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:21 AM

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Thank you. I was rather rash there...and pleased to see your participation!
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:39 AM
Quote | ReplyThis is great! I am always happy when adult supervision materializes.

Of course I have about a million questions: here's a few to start.

Many end stage cancer patients would love to know whether they would have a response similar to the near curative responses seen in various patients treated with 3-BP.  Are there predictors of response that patients might use to determine whether they might have an overwhelming anti-tumor as seen with the melanoma patient? (e.g. Are there tests for MCT-1 available? Would sequencing a patient's somatic cells for the SLC16A1 gene (codes for MCT-1) be useful? ...)

What is an estimate of the proportion of patients treated with a single monotherapy IV dose of 3-BP who would experience a lowered LDH?

What treatments could convert a patient who did not on first treatment experience a lowered LDH?

Dayspring has reported an encouraging report of a stage IV pancreatic cancer patient with "Very Poor Short Prognosis" treated with 3-BP. Of particular note is that Dayspring has only treated this one pancreatic patient with 3-BP (i.e. there was no selection involved directly [though could be selected among all types of cancer] ). It should also be noted that Dayspring uses a variety of cotreatments so it is not entirely clear how the response arose or whether there were other cotreatments that potentiated the 3-BP. There are now several such impressive reports for 3-BP. What proportion of patients would you estimate could have such extreme responses?

The Columbian clinic reported a large response with 3-BP and salinomycin in a stage IV lung cancer patient. Did this patient also have a response on first 3-BP treatment? Has  or will this patient's report ever be published officially?

In terms of lactate, I am very impressed with 7ACC1. 7ACC1 stops influx of lactate into tumor cells while allowing 3-BP influx. Are there other drugs in development that could help magnify the effectiveness of 3-BP?

Why have none of the metabolic cancer drugs that this thread talks about all the time never gained momentum in clinical trials? For example, 3-BP, 3-BrOP, methylglyoxal, DCA, (probably many others). MD Anderson's 3-BrOP appears even more impressive than 3-BP, though it was patented about 10 years ago and also has yet to start a clinical trial.

Oh, yes. Welcome new poster!
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Caddy on Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:49 AM
Quote | ReplyI think everyone on this thread would be delighted for Danielus to be the nominated contact. And many thanks to JRW07 for sharing an obvious depth of experience and knowledge!
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by jetsparkle on Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:00 PM

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On Aug 16, 2015 3:49 PM Caddy wrote:

I think everyone on this thread would be delighted for Danielus to be the nominated contact. And many thanks to JRW07 for sharing an obvious depth of experience and knowledge!
Yes, absolutely delighted!!!

Cannot begin to express sufficient gratitude and thanks to JRW07 for his desire to share his experience and knowledge!
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Caddy on Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:16 PM
Quote | ReplyI'm sure JRW is already wondering if he made a mistake posting here! He's obviously very busy, and doesn't want/need to be swamped with random questions.

So, can we all make sure that we put our questions, not directly to JRW, but instead to Danielus - and we trust his instincts and judgement to liaise with JRW?
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by kcervantes on Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:17 PM

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On Aug 16, 2015 3:49 PM Caddy wrote:

I think everyone on this thread would be delighted for Danielus to be the nominated contact. And many thanks to JRW07 for sharing an obvious depth of experience and knowledge!
Agreed!
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:52 PM
Quote | ReplyWe could go to the below url and have our own 3-BP virtual conference (not in thread form!). We would then be able escape the limitations of these sequential thread conversations and arrive at concensus questions that the doctor might consider.

http://3bromopyruvate.wikia.com/wiki/3-bromopyruvate\_Wikia

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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sun Aug 16, 2015 08:34 PM
Quote | ReplyThis thread has consistently attracted posts from clinical leaders in 3-BP and other cancer scientists. Their informed input is very much appreciated. We welcome a range of opinion on 3-BP treatment, both positive and negative.

I am very grateful for the recent posting by someone with direct knowledge of the potential and problems of 3-BP.

This thread is drawing a global following, I would ask anyone whether abroad or not if they are aware of any non-Western nations using 3-BP. We are aware of a clinic in The Philippines that might even be treating with second generation 3-BP, one in Columbia that has treated with 3-BP and unofficial clinics in Mexico.

Are there any other such clinics?

Western researchers have understood for quite some time that the regulatory environment present in many industrialized nations has become excessively restricted. In many nations a possible cure for cancer such as 3-BP could never emerge not because cancer cannot be cured ( it was proven 20 years ago that metastatic cancer can be cured in lab models), but instead because there is no solution to the regulatory and other obstructions. It is disheartening to realize that after all the evidence that has accumulated over the last 15 years (including clinical reports) nations would still prohibit terminally ill cancer patients with no remaining lines of treatment from accessing 3-BP.

It is a moral outrage.

It is also a democratic outrage. The conduct of several democratic nations is clearly at odds with the will of their people on medical treatment choice. Activists who pushed this issue (by for example, taunting governement to arrest and prosecute terminally ill cancer patients for trying 3-BP) would score an almost certain victory. Several posters have noted the legal dangers they and those who help them obtain 3-BP treatment are exposed to.

There are still pristine places on this planet largely untouched by the duplicity of modern civilization. These places often allow a highly unregulated medical treatment context. (To a somewhat scary degree.)

Anyone know of these clincs? Readers of this thread would be very interested to learn more about them.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Mon Aug 17, 2015 03:12 PM
Quote | ReplyDear Friends,

As you all know, Dr. Jason shared with us relevant information related to 3BP treatments and next to that some more info on Salinomycin and new treatments he is currently using with good results. I am not allowed to share the documents I have received (and I understand that very well) so here is a summary of that:

1. Various doses and preparation methods have been considered in order to obtain stable 3BP solutions. In general, the dose used is in the same range as the one we know from the various publications, i.e. around 2 mg/kg. I only saw results from administration via TACE. From the formulation point of view, the most relevant aspect to me is the fact that in order to obtain a more stable solution, 3BP has to be first mixed with water for injection. This mixture can than be inserted in the NaCl bag (I will address the how in more details in the 3BP page of my blog so that you have a clear view on where this fits into the preparation method, if that is not clear now). Indeed, I know that the 3BP prepared in Egypt as delivered to the melanoma patient used the same technique, but somehow I did forgot about it and was not aware about its strong impact on the stability... Note: for your reference, if 3BP is mixed with water (e.g. 500mg in 10ml) will be stable for a month or more (if stored at 4C).

2. Dr. Ko's biggest concern is that people will use to the wrong way and give it a bad name.

3. For the use of 3BP patient selection and administration is key. This is because from what Dr. Jason learned, in some cases there is resistance developed to 3BP and that the tumor will return more aggressive. Similar to the results from chemotherapy. This is why Dr. Jason thinks "debulking (ie surgery or ablation) would be useful. The lower the tumor burden, the better  chance that 3-BP can completely eliminate a tumor. Larger tumors do not get enough 3-BP to  provide adequate tumor killing before it will mutate (become resistant) and resurge."
Indeed, he shared with me pictures showing cases where tumor became more aggressive after the treatment with 3BP. This is an important reference point for us. Until now, we have several examples of people doing better with the 3BP treatment and knowing that is possible to also go the wrong way is important. As a result we have to think and try design treatment protocols that would reduce such risks.  At the end of this post I will discuss how I think we may be able to reduce these risks.

4. Dr. Jason also thinks "Smaller tumor (pancreas, pelvis and sacrum) seemed to respond fully"

5. Dr. Jason will connect me with people that have been treated with 3BP and are alive

6. Due to the risks Dr. Jason has identified related to the 3BP treatment, he prefers to use intra-tumoral immunotherapy and ablation, as the success rate is much higher, looks like >80%. This sounds very interesting and I will ask more questions about this treatment route. I even intend to have a page dedicated to that if Dr. Jason will supply enough info.

7. Some relevant information related to Salinomycin treatment schedule has been shared as well: I will implement this on the Salinomycin page I intend to build soon but the most relevant point here is that there are various places in the world where patients are treated with Salinomycin and where the treatment cycle include 5days treatment / week and 4 consecutive weeks. From my personal experience I think this may depend on the patient response and if the response is great lower treatment frequency may be required. Note that the published report where Salinomycin was used on humans at Heidelberg 2012, teh treatment cycle was during 24 days, one day on and one off. Again, to me Salinomycin is the most effective treatments I have seen so far. That is all about Salinomycin. Valium and Propranolol may be used for pre treatment before Sal treatment - I have to check this one.

9. Results seems to be better when combining Sal with 3BP compared to when using single substances for treatment.

10. Received a very interesting article on the lactate transport. I will study and come back with conclusion: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781

11. Dr. Jason thinks "there are still uses for 3BP and hopefully with the right combo, it can be even better"

12. On the future of 3BP: "Patent issues and analogs make development challenging"

After all the above my questions are:

- Was Paracetamol or any other technique to reduce Gluthadiole used? This may be able to counteract the resistance if there is no change in metabolism.
- Was there a PET/CT scan performed after tumors became more aggressive? If yes were they more active on PET or become invisible on PET? This is very important since the tumor metabolism may be changed. If yes, which I believe is the case, we can come up with strategies to stop those as well.
- The patients were treated only at the clinic or they also had continuous treatment at home?

My conclusion from all input from Dr. Jason is as also suggested by Dayspring Clinic: in some cases 3BP is effective in affecting tumors that may not be anymore responsive to mainstream medicine. However 3BP treatment is an art and to make the best out of 3BP treatment we need to support 3BP. And we need to learn more on how to do that.

I will discuss on my blog some of my ideas on how I would do that.

For now I wish to thank Dr. Jason for his kindness in sharing important information with us. Based on the info I have received and e-mail exchange with other people it is clear that he is focused on getting the best outcome for his patients.

Dear Dr. Jason, if I missinterpret any of the above, please comment.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by jetsparkle on Mon Aug 17, 2015 03:19 PM

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On Aug 17, 2015 7:12 PM Danielus wrote:

Dear Friends,

As you all know, Dr. Jason shared with us relevant information related to 3BP treatments and next to that some more info on Salinomycin and new treatments he is currently using with good results. I am not allowed to share the documents I have received (and I understand that very well) so here is a summary of that:

1. Various doses and preparation methods have been considered in order to obtain stable 3BP solutions. In general, the dose used is in the same range as the one we know from the various publications, i.e. around 2 mg/kg. I only saw results from administration via TACE. From the formulation point of view, the most relevant aspect to me is the fact that in order to obtain a more stable solution, 3BP has to be first mixed with water for injection. This mixture can than be inserted in the NaCl bag (I will address the how in more details in the 3BP page of my blog so that you have a clear view on where this fits into the preparation method, if that is not clear now). Indeed, I know that the 3BP prepared in Egypt as delivered to the melanoma patient used the same technique, but somehow I did forgot about it and was not aware about its strong impact on the stability... Note: for your reference, if 3BP is mixed with water (e.g. 500mg in 10ml) will be stable for a month or more (if stored at 4C).

2. Dr. Ko's biggest concern is that people will use to the wrong way and give it a bad name.

3. For the use of 3BP patient selection and administration is key. This is because from what Dr. Jason learned, in some cases there is resistance developed to 3BP and that the tumor will return more aggressive. Similar to the results from chemotherapy. This is why Dr. Jason thinks "debulking (ie surgery or ablation) would be useful. The lower the tumor burden, the better  chance that 3-BP can completely eliminate a tumor. Larger tumors do not get enough 3-BP to  provide adequate tumor killing before it will mutate (become resistant) and resurge."
Indeed, he shared with me pictures showing cases where tumor became more aggressive after the treatment with 3BP. This is an important reference point for us. Until now, we have several examples of people doing better with the 3BP treatment and knowing that is possible to also go the wrong way is important. As a result we have to think and try design treatment protocols that would reduce such risks.  At the end of this post I will discuss how I think we may be able to reduce these risks.

4. Dr. Jason also thinks "Smaller tumor (pancreas, pelvis and sacrum) seemed to respond fully"

5. Dr. Jason will connect me with people that have been treated with 3BP and are alive

6. Due to the risks Dr. Jason has identified related to the 3BP treatment, he prefers to use intra-tumoral immunotherapy and ablation, as the success rate is much higher, looks like >80%. This sounds very interesting and I will ask more questions about this treatment route. I even intend to have a page dedicated to that if Dr. Jason will supply enough info.

7. Some relevant information related to Salinomycin treatment schedule has been shared as well: I will implement this on the Salinomycin page I intend to build soon but the most relevant point here is that there are various places in the world where patients are treated with Salinomycin and where the treatment cycle include 5days treatment / week and 4 consecutive weeks. From my personal experience I think this may depend on the patient response and if the response is great lower treatment frequency may be required. Note that the published report where Salinomycin was used on humans at Heidelberg 2012, teh treatment cycle was during 24 days, one day on and one off. Again, to me Salinomycin is the most effective treatments I have seen so far. That is all about Salinomycin. Valium and Propranolol may be used for pre treatment before Sal treatment - I have to check this one.

9. Results seems to be better when combining Sal with 3BP compared to when using single substances for treatment.

10. Received a very interesting article on the lactate transport. I will study and come back with conclusion: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781

11. Dr. Jason thinks "there are still uses for 3BP and hopefully with the right combo, it can be even better"

12. On the future of 3BP: "Patent issues and analogs make development challenging"

After all the above my questions are:

- Was Paracetamol or any other technique to reduce Gluthadiole used? This may be able to counteract the resistance if there is no change in metabolism.
- Was there a PET/CT scan performed after tumors became more aggressive? If yes were they more active on PET or become invisible on PET? This is very important since the tumor metabolism may be changed. If yes, which I believe is the case, we can come up with strategies to stop those as well.
- The patients were treated only at the clinic or they also had continuous treatment at home?

My conclusion from all input from Dr. Jason is as also suggested by Dayspring Clinic: in some cases 3BP is effective in affecting tumors that may not be anymore responsive to mainstream medicine. However 3BP treatment is an art and to make the best out of 3BP treatment we need to support 3BP. And we need to learn more on how to do that.

I will discuss on my blog some of my ideas on how I would do that.

For now I wish to thank Dr. Jason for his kindness in sharing important information with us. Based on the info I have received and e-mail exchange with other people it is clear that he is focused on getting the best outcome for his patients.

Dear Dr. Jason, if I missinterpret any of the above, please comment.
Thank you, Daniel--and also thank you, Dr. Williams-- for taking the time to share this information with all of us.

There is so very much to learn about 3-BP and other potentially life-saving treatments--and your sharing this with us shows your honest-hearted, good intentions for those who are in a fight for their lives.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Mon Aug 17, 2015 03:26 PM

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On Aug 17, 2015 7:19 PM jetsparkle wrote:

On Aug 17, 2015 7:12 PM Danielus wrote:

Dear Friends,

As you all know, Dr. Jason shared with us relevant information related to 3BP treatments and next to that some more info on Salinomycin and new treatments he is currently using with good results. I am not allowed to share the documents I have received (and I understand that very well) so here is a summary of that:

1. Various doses and preparation methods have been considered in order to obtain stable 3BP solutions. In general, the dose used is in the same range as the one we know from the various publications, i.e. around 2 mg/kg. I only saw results from administration via TACE. From the formulation point of view, the most relevant aspect to me is the fact that in order to obtain a more stable solution, 3BP has to be first mixed with water for injection. This mixture can than be inserted in the NaCl bag (I will address the how in more details in the 3BP page of my blog so that you have a clear view on where this fits into the preparation method, if that is not clear now). Indeed, I know that the 3BP prepared in Egypt as delivered to the melanoma patient used the same technique, but somehow I did forgot about it and was not aware about its strong impact on the stability... Note: for your reference, if 3BP is mixed with water (e.g. 500mg in 10ml) will be stable for a month or more (if stored at 4C).

2. Dr. Ko's biggest concern is that people will use to the wrong way and give it a bad name.

3. For the use of 3BP patient selection and administration is key. This is because from what Dr. Jason learned, in some cases there is resistance developed to 3BP and that the tumor will return more aggressive. Similar to the results from chemotherapy. This is why Dr. Jason thinks "debulking (ie surgery or ablation) would be useful. The lower the tumor burden, the better  chance that 3-BP can completely eliminate a tumor. Larger tumors do not get enough 3-BP to  provide adequate tumor killing before it will mutate (become resistant) and resurge."
Indeed, he shared with me pictures showing cases where tumor became more aggressive after the treatment with 3BP. This is an important reference point for us. Until now, we have several examples of people doing better with the 3BP treatment and knowing that is possible to also go the wrong way is important. As a result we have to think and try design treatment protocols that would reduce such risks.  At the end of this post I will discuss how I think we may be able to reduce these risks.

4. Dr. Jason also thinks "Smaller tumor (pancreas, pelvis and sacrum) seemed to respond fully"

5. Dr. Jason will connect me with people that have been treated with 3BP and are alive

6. Due to the risks Dr. Jason has identified related to the 3BP treatment, he prefers to use intra-tumoral immunotherapy and ablation, as the success rate is much higher, looks like >80%. This sounds very interesting and I will ask more questions about this treatment route. I even intend to have a page dedicated to that if Dr. Jason will supply enough info.

7. Some relevant information related to Salinomycin treatment schedule has been shared as well: I will implement this on the Salinomycin page I intend to build soon but the most relevant point here is that there are various places in the world where patients are treated with Salinomycin and where the treatment cycle include 5days treatment / week and 4 consecutive weeks. From my personal experience I think this may depend on the patient response and if the response is great lower treatment frequency may be required. Note that the published report where Salinomycin was used on humans at Heidelberg 2012, teh treatment cycle was during 24 days, one day on and one off. Again, to me Salinomycin is the most effective treatments I have seen so far. That is all about Salinomycin. Valium and Propranolol may be used for pre treatment before Sal treatment - I have to check this one.

9. Results seems to be better when combining Sal with 3BP compared to when using single substances for treatment.

10. Received a very interesting article on the lactate transport. I will study and come back with conclusion: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24928781

11. Dr. Jason thinks "there are still uses for 3BP and hopefully with the right combo, it can be even better"

12. On the future of 3BP: "Patent issues and analogs make development challenging"

After all the above my questions are:

- Was Paracetamol or any other technique to reduce Gluthadiole used? This may be able to counteract the resistance if there is no change in metabolism.
- Was there a PET/CT scan performed after tumors became more aggressive? If yes were they more active on PET or become invisible on PET? This is very important since the tumor metabolism may be changed. If yes, which I believe is the case, we can come up with strategies to stop those as well.
- The patients were treated only at the clinic or they also had continuous treatment at home?

My conclusion from all input from Dr. Jason is as also suggested by Dayspring Clinic: in some cases 3BP is effective in affecting tumors that may not be anymore responsive to mainstream medicine. However 3BP treatment is an art and to make the best out of 3BP treatment we need to support 3BP. And we need to learn more on how to do that.

I will discuss on my blog some of my ideas on how I would do that.

For now I wish to thank Dr. Jason for his kindness in sharing important information with us. Based on the info I have received and e-mail exchange with other people it is clear that he is focused on getting the best outcome for his patients.

Dear Dr. Jason, if I missinterpret any of the above, please comment.
Thank you, Daniel--and also thank you, Dr. Williams-- for taking the time to share this information with all of us.

There is so very much to learn about 3-BP and other potentially life-saving treatments--and your sharing this with us shows your honest-hearted, good intentions for those who are in a fight for their lives.
I'll say, "What she said" in relation to Jetsparkle's comment, with the added remark that I am now quite fearful of continuing on with 3BP not knowing if it is making my husband's bone mets worse. Certainly, his bones are hurting more following topical application and the whole VEGF thing is of concern to me as this is how prostate cancer bone mets proliferate.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Mon Aug 17, 2015 03:56 PM
Quote | ReplyOn important addition I have is the following: in a tumor, the cells may be of different type from a metabolic point of view. And if not all are killed (in the melanoma case possibly all were killed) you may see development of others, or not. It depends on many things, including the spatial distribuition of the cells sensitive to 3BP. But if those who suvive are going to prolifereate they will need to build a structure of veins through angio genesis. That means that using angio-genesis inhibitors toghether with 3BP will help. Another way of suvival is glucose so that you will use e.g. 2DG and aditional possibility is glutamine so that you use Phenyl Butyrate. Just a few ideas to maximize the chances. Will go on on the blog.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Mon Aug 17, 2015 04:39 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 17, 2015 7:56 PM Danielus wrote:

On important addition I have is the following: in a tumor, the cells may be of different type from a metabolic point of view. And if not all are killed (in the melanoma case possibly all were killed) you may see development of others, or not. It depends on many things, including the spatial distribuition of the cells sensitive to 3BP. But if those who suvive are going to prolifereate they will need to build a structure of veins through angio genesis. That means that using angio-genesis inhibitors toghether with 3BP will help. Another way of suvival is glucose so that you will use e.g. 2DG and aditional possibility is glutamine so that you use Phenyl Butyrate. Just a few ideas to maximize the chances. Will go on on the blog.
Will Sodium Butyrate be OK?
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Caddy on Mon Aug 17, 2015 05:55 PM
Quote | ReplyDanielus,

This is incredibly helpful. It brings a mixture of confidence and realism. The confidence comes from the idea that 3BP works very well for some people with some tumours, in some cancers. And offers the hope that with some adjuvants it could be even better.

The realism is that - as most of us felt - there's no 'magic cure' when it comes to something as complicated as cancer. Perhaps there were times when this thread, as important as it is, got a little ahead of itself. Perhaps now we can continue to seek solutions, and share protocols, while recognising that we're all on a journey - and will be for some time.

I'll share the insights I've gained from my research and interviews in due course. But, for now, thanks for being the voice that places Dr Williams significant experience - and humane desire to help - into context and plain English!
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 17, 2015 07:22 PM
Quote | ReplyOrdinarily in drug development an intense research program into drug optimization and determination of patients likely to respond occurs. Such clinical research has never taken place for 3-BP.

The 3-BP patient reports to date have as far as we know been unselected on the basis of predicted response. However, it is known that simple monotherapy 3-BP would not likely be effective for various tumor types. For example, one of the obstacles to anti-tumor effects with 3-BP is entry into the cell through MCT-1.

"Additionally, MCT1 mRNA levels are the best predictor of 3-BrPA sensitivity and are most elevated in glycolytic cancer cells."

"Our results predict that MCT1 expression levels will serve as a biomarker for identifying tumors likely to respond to 3-BrPA treatment14,15. Furthermore, as we find that MCT1 expression correlates with elevated glycolysis, it may be possible to enhance the efficacy of 3-BrPA by concomitant treatment with glycolytic inhibitors so as to exploit the high glycolytic demand of tumors and the cancer-enriched expression of MCT1."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3530647/

The above article noted that radioactive carbon 3-BP has been used to determine whether 3-BP can enter cancer cells in vitro. It would be very interesting to know whether such radiolabeling could also be used in vivo. This might give a clear indication of whether 3-BP treatment would be effective.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 17, 2015 09:47 PM
Quote | ReplyLack of MCT-1 expression can prevent effectiveness of 3-BP.

Forcing expression of MCT-1 greatly changed sensitivity of cancer cells lines to 3-BP.

"Stable expression of MCT1 in two breast cancer lines with low MCT1 expression (MDA-MB-231 and SK-BR-3) was sufficient to sensitize them to 3-BrPA (Fig. 3c)."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3530647/

Would cell entry of 3-BP without requiring the MCT-1 doorway increase 3-BP's effectiveness? Yes! Massively massively! One or two logs!

"The MCT is implicated as a 3-BP transporter and free 3-BP might not enter cells in the absence of MCT. When 3-BP is conjugated to a mitochondria-targeted NP system, as in the T-3-BP-AuNPs,even in the absence of MCTs... will be taken up by cancer cells ..."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4335358/
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:09 PM
Quote | ReplyWhere would the most devastating attack on glycolysis occur?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycolysis

"However, our metabolite profiling strongly implicates GAPDH inhibition as the primary cause of its [i.e. 3-BP's] anti-glycolytic effects (Fig. 2c)."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3530647/

The first 5 steps of glycolysis are known as the energy investment phase. This phase actually requires an energy input. The energy payback happens on the backend of the pathway. 3-BP is attacking the cell after it has completed the investment phase. There are no dividends!

3-BP attacks at the perfect place, the cell actually loses energy by going through glycolysis. This should be devastating!
Quote | Reply

### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:55 PM
Quote | ReplyRadioactive 3-BP would be a great way to separate possible responders from certain non-responders in any future  clinical trial.

After 15 years of 3-BP research a clinical trial has not even started yet. When (if) a clinical trial starts, it might take another 15 years to work through the clinical trial process. Perhaps then it might be realized that few of the treated patients had the necessary MCT-1 transporters to bring 3-BP into cancer cells. It might then take another 5 or more years to incorporate this knowledge into yet further trials.

Selecting appropriate patients right from the start of clinical trials could quicken the clinical trial process for 3-BP considerably.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Tue Aug 18, 2015 03:27 AM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 17, 2015 9:55 PM Caddy wrote:

Danielus,

This is incredibly helpful. It brings a mixture of confidence and realism. The confidence comes from the idea that 3BP works very well for some people with some tumours, in some cancers. And offers the hope that with some adjuvants it could be even better.

The realism is that - as most of us felt - there's no 'magic cure' when it comes to something as complicated as cancer. Perhaps there were times when this thread, as important as it is, got a little ahead of itself. Perhaps now we can continue to seek solutions, and share protocols, while recognising that we're all on a journey - and will be for some time.

I'll share the insights I've gained from my research and interviews in due course. But, for now, thanks for being the voice that places Dr Williams significant experience - and humane desire to help - into context and plain English!
Thanks for the nice words Caddy.

I did asked a few more questions to Dr. Williams and based on that I understand that I understand the following:

1. They were also continuously in the serach for a more stable formulation that would be more effective.

2. They have used Paracetamol but lower dose compared to that used in Egypt case.

3. Those tumors that have evolved after 3BP treatment were even more visible on PET scan (as I suggested on my blog that would be expected based on the mechanism I imagine). This is good because so far we understand what is happening:
- one option is that simply the formulation was not the best
- the other option is that the formulation was effective but what was left there were the cells functioning on glycolisis only. There are strategies to stop those or to convert them again into 3BP responding cells. Will discuss them on my blog :)

I have the same feeling Caddy: although initially I felt is a bit negative discussion now I am very glad with the contribution of dR. Williams which is helping us to understand more and act acordingly so that we improve our anti cancer strategy using 3BP, which is clear that if used well it can add great value in the oncology field.

Dr. Willims, thanks agian for your great help!
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:42 AM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 18, 2015 7:27 AM Danielus wrote:

On Aug 17, 2015 9:55 PM Caddy wrote:

Danielus,

This is incredibly helpful. It brings a mixture of confidence and realism. The confidence comes from the idea that 3BP works very well for some people with some tumours, in some cancers. And offers the hope that with some adjuvants it could be even better.

The realism is that - as most of us felt - there's no 'magic cure' when it comes to something as complicated as cancer. Perhaps there were times when this thread, as important as it is, got a little ahead of itself. Perhaps now we can continue to seek solutions, and share protocols, while recognising that we're all on a journey - and will be for some time.

I'll share the insights I've gained from my research and interviews in due course. But, for now, thanks for being the voice that places Dr Williams significant experience - and humane desire to help - into context and plain English!
Thanks for the nice words Caddy.

I did asked a few more questions to Dr. Williams and based on that I understand that I understand the following:

1. They were also continuously in the serach for a more stable formulation that would be more effective.

2. They have used Paracetamol but lower dose compared to that used in Egypt case.

3. Those tumors that have evolved after 3BP treatment were even more visible on PET scan (as I suggested on my blog that would be expected based on the mechanism I imagine). This is good because so far we understand what is happening:
- one option is that simply the formulation was not the best
- the other option is that the formulation was effective but what was left there were the cells functioning on glycolisis only. There are strategies to stop those or to convert them again into 3BP responding cells. Will discuss them on my blog :)

I have the same feeling Caddy: although initially I felt is a bit negative discussion now I am very glad with the contribution of dR. Williams which is helping us to understand more and act acordingly so that we improve our anti cancer strategy using 3BP, which is clear that if used well it can add great value in the oncology field.

Dr. Willims, thanks agian for your great help!
I second these votes of confidence. I am very pleased to see Dr. Williams here. Very! Of course, Daniel is held in very high regard by all of us and we mustn't forget JCanCom whose ehthusiasm, passion, and curious nature has promoted this thread in a stellar manner! I know I speak for many when I say "heartfelt thanks" to you all.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:49 AM
Quote | ReplyGreat point Moonlinight!!! Withould J, probably this thread would loose momentum long time ago.

I do not knwo what J eats but he gets a lot of energy out of that :D J, please share that with us :)
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:47 AM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 18, 2015 2:42 PM Moonlitnight wrote:

On Aug 18, 2015 7:27 AM Danielus wrote:

On Aug 17, 2015 9:55 PM Caddy wrote:

Danielus,

This is incredibly helpful. It brings a mixture of confidence and realism. The confidence comes from the idea that 3BP works very well for some people with some tumours, in some cancers. And offers the hope that with some adjuvants it could be even better.

The realism is that - as most of us felt - there's no 'magic cure' when it comes to something as complicated as cancer. Perhaps there were times when this thread, as important as it is, got a little ahead of itself. Perhaps now we can continue to seek solutions, and share protocols, while recognising that we're all on a journey - and will be for some time.

I'll share the insights I've gained from my research and interviews in due course. But, for now, thanks for being the voice that places Dr Williams significant experience - and humane desire to help - into context and plain English!
Thanks for the nice words Caddy.

I did asked a few more questions to Dr. Williams and based on that I understand that I understand the following:

1. They were also continuously in the serach for a more stable formulation that would be more effective.

2. They have used Paracetamol but lower dose compared to that used in Egypt case.

3. Those tumors that have evolved after 3BP treatment were even more visible on PET scan (as I suggested on my blog that would be expected based on the mechanism I imagine). This is good because so far we understand what is happening:
- one option is that simply the formulation was not the best
- the other option is that the formulation was effective but what was left there were the cells functioning on glycolisis only. There are strategies to stop those or to convert them again into 3BP responding cells. Will discuss them on my blog :)

I have the same feeling Caddy: although initially I felt is a bit negative discussion now I am very glad with the contribution of dR. Williams which is helping us to understand more and act acordingly so that we improve our anti cancer strategy using 3BP, which is clear that if used well it can add great value in the oncology field.

Dr. Willims, thanks agian for your great help!
I second these votes of confidence. I am very pleased to see Dr. Williams here. Very! Of course, Daniel is held in very high regard by all of us and we mustn't forget JCanCom whose ehthusiasm, passion, and curious nature has promoted this thread in a stellar manner! I know I speak for many when I say "heartfelt thanks" to you all.
Typed without my contacts in. Scuse typos...
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:14 PM
Quote | ReplyActually I am a manifestation of the Eternal Cancer Warrior: Don't Sleep, Don't Eat; I relentlessly pursue the cure for myself and others. When one's primary metabolic input is moral outrage, chemical sustenance is superfluous.

Thoughtful readers of the scientific literature should realize that a cure for cancer has already been achieved. It is the task of today's Cancer Warriors to merely walk it across the line.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:27 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 18, 2015 4:14 PM Jcancom wrote:

Actually I am a manifestation of the Eternal Cancer Warrior: Don't Sleep, Don't Eat; I relentlessly pursue the cure for myself and others. When one's primary metabolic input is moral outrage, chemical sustenance is superfluous.

Thoughtful readers of the scientific literature should realize that a cure for cancer has already been achieved. It is the task of today's Cancer Warriors to merely walk it across the line.
Absolutely agree with this.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:30 PM
Quote | ReplyMore helpfully I could mention that I had a pimply warty thingy on my leg for quite some time that I was becoming worried about. Over the last month or two I have tried the occasional weekend water fast. I am fairly surprised and greatly relieved that the thingy on my leg has almost completely disappeared! I find it hard to believe that a few fasts would have had an impact on a possible low glycolytic lesion.

I will be very interested to read further research on fasting/ketosis in cancer treatment/prevention.

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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Tue Aug 18, 2015 01:20 PM
Quote | ReplyEveryone, I just read something interesting while writing up a piece on the coriolus mushroom for a client - full disclosure there. Here is what I just wrote based on their supplier's research. I haven't put the brand here as I think that may be against the rules but you could email me...

\*\*\*\* full-spectrum  5x  hybrid Cordyceps truly excels in the world of Cordyceps supplements. It contains seven different strains and **increases ATP by 30 per cent and oxygen utilization by 40 per cent**. The body's ability to use oxygen effectively is paramount for the effective functioning of the heart, brain and muscles.

D. or J., how would "increasing ATP" sit with cancer cells? I know the O2 uptake part is good.

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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Tue Aug 18, 2015 01:59 PM
Quote | ReplyWell, I just ran for my NADH supplement! That is the most direct way I know of to fuel up. I have thought sometimes that I might try an all NADH diet.

"As a potential strategy for cancer therapy, drugs that enhance mitochondrial ATP production through respiration have been proposed and have shown promising results "

http://www.cell.com/molecular-cell/fulltext/S1097-2765%2815%

This MPC seems very interesting. It is surprising that it was only recently isolated. This is another central piece of the metabolic pathway that could have significant anti-cancer effects. Once all the components of cellular metabolism are fully clarified that almost by definition would constitute the cure for cancer.

Interesting that article goes on to talk about blocking the efflux of lactate using the AR---- inhibitor that we have come across before and this caused feedback inhibition of LDH resulting in the accumulaiton of pyruvate.

Something similar that has also been noted before is the chemical PQQ. It is suspected of being able to generate new mitochondria. This chemical also appears to have anti-cancer properties. Reactivating normal energy pathways in cancer also appears to have therapeutic potential.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Tue Aug 18, 2015 02:10 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 18, 2015 5:59 PM Jcancom wrote:

Well, I just ran for my NADH supplement! That is the most direct way I know of to fuel up. I have thought sometimes that I might try an all NADH diet.

"As a potential strategy for cancer therapy, drugs that enhance mitochondrial ATP production through respiration have been proposed and have shown promising results "

http://www.cell.com/molecular-cell/fulltext/S1097-2765%2815% 2900529-8"" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cell.com/molecular-cell/fulltext/S1097-2765%2815%  target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cell.com/molecular-cell/fulltext/S1097-2765%2815%

This MPC seems very interesting. It is surprising that it was only recently isolated. This is another central piece of the metabolic pathway that could have significant anti-cancer effects. Once all the components of cellular metabolism are fully clarified that almost by definition would constitute the cure for cancer.

Interesting that article goes on to talk about blocking the efflux of lactate using the AR---- inhibitor that we have come across before and this caused feedback inhibition of LDH resulting in the accumulaiton of pyruvate.

Something similar that has also been noted before is the chemical PQQ. It is suspected of being able to generate new mitochondria. This chemical also appears to have anti-cancer properties. Reactivating normal energy pathways in cancer also appears to have therapeutic potential.
I have a load of PQQ as well, but it has CoQ10 with it, which is a no-no with 3BP.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Tue Aug 18, 2015 09:37 PM
Quote | ReplyThe idea of screening patients for probable response to 3-BP treatment has me quite excited. It would break us out of the logic that patients do not want to receive treatment because the proportion of responders might be low, even though there might be a subgroup that would be expected to show a large response.

Up to this point, patients appear not to have been selected on the basis of predicted response to 3-BP (though this is not entirely clear). Without patient selection, treatments often can appear unsuccessful. In fact some of the breakthrough drugs such as BRAFs needed genetic selection to really gain traction.

The entire moral argument with 3-BP changes if we could select so that there would be a 100% response rate. The mechanism of action of metabolic therapies allows for such selection. Selecting and treatng patients on this basis would not be immoral, though it might then be immoral for governments to continue to prevent 3-BP treatment of terminally cancer patients.

Dramatic responses have been reported in the scientific literature for 3-BP. While there have also been a fair few non-responders. Being able to select patients prospectively  who would respond would be a game changer for 3-BP.

Selecting probable responders might be as simple as using sub-therapeutic dosing as suggested before with confirmation using lactate or another marker. This might be used as an initial screen. Such dosing could be quite tiny and very safe.

For a more specific screen, a second round using the radioactively labeled 3-BP could be tried. I am not sure whether it is possible to have a duo tracer PET scan with C14 3-BP and 18FDG, though this could be very useful. Using this, one could see exactly where the 3-BP would be expected to be effective. It is possible that different tumors in the body might have different expressions of MCT-1. With a duo scan you would have a reasonably good idea how effective 3-BP would be everywhere in the body.  The idea is that some patients might have a good initial response as measured on a PET or lactate, but might then go unresponsive. With the duo PET scan you might select those patients who had the clearest readout in terms of C14 3-BP. These patients might have a response the most similar to the outstanding patients we always talk about. It would not be completely unexpected that a pattern of consistent C14 3-BP in tumor areas on the scan would predict those patients who would be responders and would continue to be responders.

One of the more worrisome new ideas that we have been recently confronted with is that 3-BP treatment might simply selectively destroy susceptible cells and would then leave room for resistent cells to aggressively emerge.( Similar to killing all the non-resistent bacteria with antibiotics onlyh to be left with  an entire population of resistent bacteria.) Having a scan as outlined above would give you an idea of how much treatment resistence you might encounter.

The entire argument concerning 3-BP could end abruptly if we could produce an essentially endless group of terminally cancer patients who had truly massive responses.

It is true that this would be a highly selected group of patients but it would be an important first step.

Soemthing we should also consider is that we might have entered into a whole new era of pseudo-science without fully realizing it. I am thinking of the old trick of selecting the one patient that responds to a treatment without ever mentioning the possibly thousands of patients who were treated and did not respond. This has always been an insidious form of deception.

However, we might now have entered an even more deceitful time where the deceit is somewhat less obvious, though seems much more magical.

Consider this scenario in which all the statements are absolutely true.  There are a group of seriously ill patients and a doctor selects a patient. The doctor says that no patient has been treated with a new breakthrough medicine, this will be the first patient. There is no treatment selection. The patient is treated and has a truly massive treatment response. This is so unlikely that the doctor is asked to do this again. Another patient, another massive response.

What is the trick? The trick is that the reporting of patients was not selected on the basis of treatment response, though they were selected on the basis of a predictor of response as outlined above. It would not be surprising that if 3-BP patients were selected 1000 to 1, then that 1 patient would have a truly massive response as we have already seen in the published reports.

In this new age of technology we need to be more aware of this form of possible trickery. It is not entirely clear to me whether the patients we have considered on the thread might have been selected on such a basis. With today's genetic and other technology it is entirely possible to choose that one person in a billion with a highly highly unique trait and no one might even realize the true nature of the deception for what would appear to be pure magic.

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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Tue Aug 18, 2015 09:54 PM
Quote | ReplyI posted this reference yesterday, though it is worth posting again. These scientists are just too subtle. I feel like I need to be a human exclaimation mark!!

When they say below "sensitizes cells to 3-BrPA treatment" using PARTIAL suppression, they absolutely mean it. Straight 3-BP is OKish in the figure with the MDA-MB-468 and KBM7 cell lines. However, when they silence GAPDH 1 and 2 (are there 2 of them?) and treat with 3-BP, the number of cell surviving appears to approach 0.

In fact on the KBM7 figure it appears to actually reach 0. I would sure like to load up a minicell with these shGAPDHs and treat with 3-BP. Not entirely sure whether it would be safe in vivo.

"Additionally, the partial suppression by RNAi of GAPDH expression slows down cancer cell proliferation and sensitizes cells to 3-BrPA treatment (Supplementary Fig. 3)"

(I think it should really be Supplementary Fig.5)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3530647/#SD1
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:03 AM
Quote | Reply"as glycolysis is the primary energy source used by
cancer cells to sustain their uncontrolled cell growth."

Wonder if that idea of the all NADH diet might not be a bad idea. If all you need to do is sidestep glycolysis, then one might simply remove the fuel supply. Might be tricky with lactate.

Also wonder about glycolysis and cellular metabolism generally in terms of being such an ancient energy pathway. Perhaps about 1 billion years old. It must be so well conserved in evolution that whatever could be found in lab models might translate directly into humans.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by ipappas on Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:40 AM
Quote | ReplyFirst, I would also like to thank Daniel and Dr. Williams for sharing his experience with us. I wish more doctors and scientists with experience on 3BP would join the forum.

Then, I would like to recommend a recent paper (I don't know if it has been discussed already on this thread):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26259240

It compares 9 different glycolytic inhibitors on 8 different breast and ovarian cancer cell-lines, showing a strong apoptotic effect for 3BP and others, too.  Additionally, it shows a strong synergistic interaction with metformin for two of the tested inhibitors (I wonder if this would apply for all ihibitors e.g. 3BP). Finally, greater resistance was observed at hypoxic conditions vs. normoxic conditions, (in fact quite drastic for 3BP, see fig. 8d) which may explain why 3BP does not work in some cases... I wonder what the best way is to restore normoxic conditions? Hyperbaric therapy is cumbersome...
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by jetsparkle on Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:59 AM

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On Aug 19, 2015 3:40 PM ipappas wrote:

First, I would also like to thank Daniel and Dr. Williams for sharing his experience with us. I wish more doctors and scientists with experience on 3BP would join the forum.

Then, I would like to recommend a recent paper (I don't know if it has been discussed already on this thread):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26259240 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26259240 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26259240

It compares 9 different glycolytic inhibitors on 8 different breast and ovarian cancer cell-lines, showing a strong apoptotic effect for 3BP and others, too.  Additionally, it shows a strong synergistic interaction with metformin for two of the tested inhibitors (I wonder if this would apply for all ihibitors e.g. 3BP). Finally, greater resistance was observed at hypoxic conditions vs. normoxic conditions, (in fact quite drastic for 3BP, see fig. 8d) which may explain why 3BP does not work in some cases... I wonder what the best way is to restore normoxic conditions? Hyperbaric therapy is cumbersome...
Thank you, ipappas, for providing this very important article!

Always appreciate your input and thoughts, too--just downloaded the paper--will definitely read this information.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:21 PM
Quote | ReplyI have been wondering what this 3P0 was.

Wow!! This research is very impressive. 3P0 had substantial anti-cancer effects even in the nanomolar range. PFK158 is the optimized version and is scheduled to end a phase 1 trial in September.

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02044861?term=PFK158&

We have really been snoozing. Pharmaceutical companies almost had to pick up the insights gained from 3BP and find a way to move a product to market.

3P0 is 3-(3-Pyridinyl)-1-(4-pyridinyl)-2-propen-1-one]. This is the simple non-optimized form. PFK158 is the optimized form which is probably even more complex. No concerns there that kitchen chemists could step around the patent. Will be interesting to see how much a drug with a very similar rationale to 3-BP would be worth if it could move to approval. Possibly a ridiculous amount.

4 American sites are still recruiting. Wonder if they will have to take the phone off the hook soon?

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02044861?term=PFK158&
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Caddy on Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:22 PM
Quote | ReplyYes, thanks for bringing this to our attention. But, having downloaded it, my tiny brain can't make much sense of the plethora of graphs and stats. On first glance ALL of the inhibitors seem to perform to an equivalent level. One would have thought that 3BP would have a more dramatic effect than, say, Quercetin?

And I don't claim to understand the oxidation element. But I had a discussion with the German clinic where they speculated that the reason why some patients responded while others didn't was connected to the amount of oxygen reaching the mitochondria. They speculated that more oxygen opens the door of the mitochondria and allows more of the 3BP. Is this paper confirming that hypothesis?

It would be great if we could remember that many following this thread don't have the depth of scientific understanding the the key posters have. Let's keep our explanations and speculations simple!

Perhaps Dr Williams might want to give a response to this paper too?
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:43 PM
Quote | ReplyThe anti-cancer effect shown by these glycolytic inhibitors is exactly what we, on the thread have found so compelling over the last many months. It is interesting to note that 3P0 is inhibiting the frontend of glycolysis.

As I pointed out yesterday, inhibiting the backend of the investment phase of glycolysis could be even more effective. Doing this would force most of the cancer cells into a negative energy mode ([cancer cells would then be generating -20% energy versus their normal metabolism] which would be completely unsustainable even in the short term), while normal cells would only lose 10% of their energy supply.

In Figure 2, Quercetin destroyed all the cancer cells at a concentraion of 500 microMolar which is almost 1 milliMolar (that is quite high). 3P0 was having substantial effects even at 1 microMolar. The optimized version might even be pushing into sub microMolar (that is, nanoMolar) which is the typical range of pharmaceutical products.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:49 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 19, 2015 4:43 PM Jcancom wrote:

The anti-cancer effect shown by these glycolytic inhibitors is exactly what we, on the thread have found so compelling over the last many months. It is interesting to note that 3P0 is inhibiting the frontend of glycolysis.

As I pointed out yesterday, inhibiting the backend of the investment phase of glycolysis could be even more effective. Doing this would force most of the cancer cells into a negative energy mode ([cancer cells would then be generating -20% energy versus their normal metabolism] which would be completely unsustainable even in the short term), while normal cells would only lose 10% of their energy supply.

In Figure 2, Quercetin destroyed all the cancer cells at a concentraion of 500 microMolar which is almost 1 milliMolar (that is quite high). 3P0 was having substantial effects even at 1 microMolar. The optimized version might even be pushing into sub microMolar (that is, nanoMolar) which is the typical range of pharmaceutical products.
...and quercetin is a no-no with 3BP. All very confusing.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by rliff on Wed Aug 19, 2015 01:00 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 19, 2015 4:22 PM Caddy wrote:

Yes, thanks for bringing this to our attention. But, having downloaded it, my tiny brain can't make much sense of the plethora of graphs and stats. On first glance ALL of the inhibitors seem to perform to an equivalent level. One would have thought that 3BP would have a more dramatic effect than, say, Quercetin?

And I don't claim to understand the oxidation element. But I had a discussion with the German clinic where they speculated that the reason why some patients responded while others didn't was connected to the amount of oxygen reaching the mitochondria. They speculated that more oxygen opens the door of the mitochondria and allows more of the 3BP. Is this paper confirming that hypothesis?

It would be great if we could remember that many following this thread don't have the depth of scientific understanding the the key posters have. Let's keep our explanations and speculations simple!

Perhaps Dr Williams might want to give a response to this paper too?
I was wondering about methods of enabling oxygen to reach the mitochondria, and wondered if an oxygen concentrator, with a maximum flow rate of 5 litres per minute, might be an effective way, particularly in the case of lung cancer ?
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Wed Aug 19, 2015 01:33 PM
Quote | ReplyGlycolysis is this 3 billion year old metabolic mistake that cancer exploits. It is such a powerful anti-cancer strategy to simply turn glycolysis off. As we have seen in this recent paper. Is glycolysis even essential for normal cells? Instead of glucose all the intermediate metabolites before the payback stage could be provided and GAPDH could be shut down.

To supply the oxygen here is a somewhat fanciful idea: Why not a nanofuel cell?

It could produce the oxygen and hydrogen needed by the mitochondria. Could always work the fuel cell in reverse and provide the electron flow directly to the electron chain in the mitochondria.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Wed Aug 19, 2015 01:50 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 19, 2015 5:33 PM Jcancom wrote:

Glycolysis is this 3 billion year old metabolic mistake that cancer exploits. It is such a powerful anti-cancer strategy to simply turn glycolysis off. As we have seen in this recent paper. Is glycolysis even essential for normal cells? Instead of glucose all the intermediate metabolites before the payback stage could be provided and GAPDH could be shut down.

To supply the oxygen here is a somewhat fanciful idea: Why not a nanofuel cell?

It could produce the oxygen and hydrogen needed by the mitochondria. Could always work the fuel cell in reverse and provide the electron flow directly to the electron chain in the mitochondria.
You would think all these trillion $ researchers would be working on nano fuel cells or even discovering more ways of sugar blocking, wouldn't you?
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Wed Aug 19, 2015 02:07 PM
Quote | ReplyIn the newly referenced article it does not appear that they tried to combine these glycolysis inhibitors pairwise. I wonder why not.

Perhaps they could give a lower dose of the pairwise combo, while still getting a better result. As was shown with the combo of GAPDH knock down with 3-BP, such glycolysis inhibitor combos can be extremely potent.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Wed Aug 19, 2015 02:21 PM
Quote | ReplyIn the newly referenced article it does not appear that they tried to combine these glycolysis inhibitors pairwise. I wonder why not.

Perhaps they could give a lower dose of the pairwise combo, while still getting a better result. As was shown with the combo of GAPDH knock down with 3-BP, such glycolysis inhibitor combos can be extremely potent.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Wed Aug 19, 2015 02:38 PM
Quote | ReplyThis is very disheartening. Warburg was talking about the centrality of glycolysis in cancer decades and decades ago. He did not win all those Nobel Prizes for nothing. The man was right.

Shutting down the aberrant energy pathway of cancer seems an intuitively obvious thing to do. The Hopkins reseachers said that they were the only ones who carried this torch for decades. It really makes one wonder about the basic sanity of humanity.

The new potent glycolysis inhibitors in this new article could have been made decades ago. We should have had a Manhattan Project for cancer. I am all for Curing Cancer over Making War. I suspect, propaganda nowithstanding, that most people on this planet regardless of their particular lifestyle choices would anxiously concur.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by jetsparkle on Wed Aug 19, 2015 02:40 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 19, 2015 5:50 PM Moonlitnight wrote:

On Aug 19, 2015 5:33 PM Jcancom wrote:

Glycolysis is this 3 billion year old metabolic mistake that cancer exploits. It is such a powerful anti-cancer strategy to simply turn glycolysis off. As we have seen in this recent paper. Is glycolysis even essential for normal cells? Instead of glucose all the intermediate metabolites before the payback stage could be provided and GAPDH could be shut down.

To supply the oxygen here is a somewhat fanciful idea: Why not a nanofuel cell?

It could produce the oxygen and hydrogen needed by the mitochondria. Could always work the fuel cell in reverse and provide the electron flow directly to the electron chain in the mitochondria.
You would think all these trillion $ researchers would be working on nano fuel cells or even discovering more ways of sugar blocking, wouldn't you?
As for sugar-blocking notions, I keep going back in my mind to the waiting room of my former--very prominent--oncologist.  There sits a very large bowl of hard sugar candies--just waiting for the cancer patients...so much for that.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Wed Aug 19, 2015 03:11 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 19, 2015 6:40 PM jetsparkle wrote:

On Aug 19, 2015 5:50 PM Moonlitnight wrote:

On Aug 19, 2015 5:33 PM Jcancom wrote:

Glycolysis is this 3 billion year old metabolic mistake that cancer exploits. It is such a powerful anti-cancer strategy to simply turn glycolysis off. As we have seen in this recent paper. Is glycolysis even essential for normal cells? Instead of glucose all the intermediate metabolites before the payback stage could be provided and GAPDH could be shut down.

To supply the oxygen here is a somewhat fanciful idea: Why not a nanofuel cell?

It could produce the oxygen and hydrogen needed by the mitochondria. Could always work the fuel cell in reverse and provide the electron flow directly to the electron chain in the mitochondria.
You would think all these trillion $ researchers would be working on nano fuel cells or even discovering more ways of sugar blocking, wouldn't you?
As for sugar-blocking notions, I keep going back in my mind to the waiting room of my former--very prominent--oncologist.  There sits a very large bowl of hard sugar candies--just waiting for the cancer patients...so much for that.
...and the palliative care doc's advice to Don: Eat as much ice cream as you can...
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Caddy on Wed Aug 19, 2015 03:11 PM
Quote | ReplyI think the 'Tripping Over The Truth' book explains how the seduction of genomics  offered the tantalising vision that the 'key' to unlock cancer was just over the horizon. James Watson was inadvertently part of this fixation with genomics, and it was only when his paper advocating Warburg appeared that the focus began to shift.

That said, I believe the impact of genomics will be in breaking the monolith of 'standard care' - the one-size-fits-all approach. As we've seen with this thread, there's no magic bullet: just lots of different options, which can be guided by our genome profiles.

But the more I've researched this, the more I'm convinced that the problem doesn't lie with big bad pharma - it lies with the sytem of randomised phase three trials. Testing just one drug, over such a long period, makes no sense in the kind of culture where knowledge is shared around the globe through communities like this - people at Stage Four can't afford to wait for results of such trials.

I may have come to this late, but last night I watched 'Surviving Terminal Cancer' last night:

http://www.survivingterminalcancer.com/

It's a brilliant summary of the problem we face. Until Cancer Patients are protesting on the White House lawn, as the Aids campaigners did, the system won't change.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Wed Aug 19, 2015 03:11 PM
Quote | ReplyI suppose the doctor was being ironic. Sugar is the main fuel for our metabolism. For many it is difficult to get around this fact. With cancer we are trying to overturn the low oxygen and primitive conditions on the primordial earth that originally gave rise to glycolysis. The much more sophisticated component of cellular metabolism that was added later simply evolved on top of glycolysis.

I think back to the Medical Hypothesis article that suggested extreme hypoglycemia coupled with ketones(?). They thought this would be an effective anti-cancer strategy as it also would shut down glycolysis. Yet, they thought that such a strategy would best be done in an ICU, as careful monitoring would be needed.

Quote | Reply

### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Wed Aug 19, 2015 09:48 PM
Quote | ReplyThis question about increasing the concentration of oxygen in and around tumors is interesting and it seems quite doable. We know of hyberbaric oxygen, and other inhaled oxygen. Also wonder as the tumor environment is acidic whether there are drugs that could deposit oxygen taking advantage of this.

Have they been able to do studies that showed how much of an increase to oxygen surrounding tumors could be achieved with the differenet treatments?
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Wed Aug 19, 2015 09:58 PM
Quote | ReplyAs reference here is the list of things that upregulate or downregulate MCT-1 and 4. This would be of particular importance for 3-BP as MCT-1 expression appears to play a very important in controlling 3-BP's effectiveness.

Up regulation-- PGC-1-alpha, lactate, butyrate, MYC,  TNF-alpha, diet induced ketosis -->NO, Weight Loss, Testosterone, Exercise, CD147

Down Regulation-- Chronic hypoxia, hypermethylation, obesity, denervation

and for MCT-4 regulation

upregulate--- HIF-1, obesity, CD147, testosterone, chronic hypoxia, exercise

downregulate-- weight loss, denervation

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2819205/
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Thu Aug 20, 2015 08:40 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 19, 2015 5:00 PM rliff wrote:

On Aug 19, 2015 4:22 PM Caddy wrote:

Yes, thanks for bringing this to our attention. But, having downloaded it, my tiny brain can't make much sense of the plethora of graphs and stats. On first glance ALL of the inhibitors seem to perform to an equivalent level. One would have thought that 3BP would have a more dramatic effect than, say, Quercetin?

And I don't claim to understand the oxidation element. But I had a discussion with the German clinic where they speculated that the reason why some patients responded while others didn't was connected to the amount of oxygen reaching the mitochondria. They speculated that more oxygen opens the door of the mitochondria and allows more of the 3BP. Is this paper confirming that hypothesis?

It would be great if we could remember that many following this thread don't have the depth of scientific understanding the the key posters have. Let's keep our explanations and speculations simple!

Perhaps Dr Williams might want to give a response to this paper too?
I was wondering about methods of enabling oxygen to reach the mitochondria, and wondered if an oxygen concentrator, with a maximum flow rate of 5 litres per minute, might be an effective way, particularly in the case of lung cancer ?
rliff, my husband is using a portable O2 generator set at 4 and also coriolus mushroom. The generator creates the oxygen and the coriolus increases the body's uptake.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Thu Aug 20, 2015 08:43 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 21, 2015 12:40 AM Moonlitnight wrote:

On Aug 19, 2015 5:00 PM rliff wrote:

On Aug 19, 2015 4:22 PM Caddy wrote:

Yes, thanks for bringing this to our attention. But, having downloaded it, my tiny brain can't make much sense of the plethora of graphs and stats. On first glance ALL of the inhibitors seem to perform to an equivalent level. One would have thought that 3BP would have a more dramatic effect than, say, Quercetin?

And I don't claim to understand the oxidation element. But I had a discussion with the German clinic where they speculated that the reason why some patients responded while others didn't was connected to the amount of oxygen reaching the mitochondria. They speculated that more oxygen opens the door of the mitochondria and allows more of the 3BP. Is this paper confirming that hypothesis?

It would be great if we could remember that many following this thread don't have the depth of scientific understanding the the key posters have. Let's keep our explanations and speculations simple!

Perhaps Dr Williams might want to give a response to this paper too?
I was wondering about methods of enabling oxygen to reach the mitochondria, and wondered if an oxygen concentrator, with a maximum flow rate of 5 litres per minute, might be an effective way, particularly in the case of lung cancer ?
rliff, my husband is using a portable O2 generator set at 4 and also coriolus mushroom. The generator creates the oxygen and the coriolus increases the body's uptake.
Oh-oh big mistake there...I typed "coriolus" instead of "cordyceps."
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Thu Aug 20, 2015 09:01 PM
Quote | ReplyDo they have a way of measuring body oxygen levels? Perhaps using one of those finger thingys? Would be especially important to know what the oxygen levels were in and around the tumors.

The list I provided yesterday has me thinking. I wonder whether men have a particular advantage in 3-BP response. One of the things listed that upregulates MCT-1 was testosterone. the liver patient was a 17-18 year of age male, the melanoma patient was a 28 year old male, the lung patient was a 66 year old male (Perhaps lung tumors would have a particularly high level of oxygenation).

Also it was recently mentioned that a patient who initially responded very well to 3-BP after a round or two of treatment then developed an aggressive rebound. I wonder if the oxygen angle is present there. If you remove the top layers of the normo oxygen tumor, underneath could be an entire region of hypoxic tumor. Perhaps if the tumor was well oxygenated before 3-BP, the MCT-1 would be upregulated and the rebound effect would not occur.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Thu Aug 20, 2015 09:04 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 21, 2015 1:01 AM Jcancom wrote:

Do they have a way of measuring body oxygen levels? Perhaps using one of those finger thingys? Would be especially important to know what the oxygen levels were in and around the tumors.

The list I provided yesterday has me thinking. I wonder whether men have a particular advantage in 3-BP response. One of the things listed that upregulates MCT-1 was testosterone. the liver patient was a 17-18 year of age male, the melanoma patient was a 28 year old male, the lung patient was a 66 year old male (Perhaps lung tumors would have a particularly high level of oxygenation).

Also it was recently mentioned that a patient who initially responded very well to 3-BP after a round or two of treatment then developed an aggressive rebound. I wonder if the oxygen angle is present there. If you remove the top layers of the normo oxygen tumor, underneath could be an entire region of hypoxic tumor. Perhaps if the tumor was well oxygenated before 3-BP, the MCT-1 would be upregulated and the rebound effect would not occur.
That is an interesting point, J. My husband is on androgen depletion therapy. Not a shred of testosterone anywhere.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Thu Aug 20, 2015 09:21 PM
Quote | ReplyOHHH! There is just so many possible confounders. It might really help for those giving 3-BP a try to have everything cleared out of the system for a day or two and have a clean slate for a dose to response attempt.

With natural supplements, it really is amazing how many interactions pop up. I mean what doesn't curcumin interact with? It is simply extraordinary. Having a very clear hit on whatever the target is would really help figure things out.

In what I am reading about 3-BP many experts think that it is mostly just a toxic chemical that has cancer selectivity. If so, there could be a whole lot of similar chemicals developed that could enter through a bunch more MCT-1 like doors.

M have you been able to determine whether the oxygen concentrator is actually concentrating oxygen? Also wonder about those hyperbaric machines. Do they have any studies on their effectiveness at upping oxygen?
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Magdal on Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:42 AM
Quote | ReplyJC and all friends on this thread say a prayer for my husband He passed away on 18 august at 7:30 am We tried to go for 3 bp today to toronto clinic but Could not make it please pray for us and his soul I wish no obe hasto go through what my family went through MagdaQuote | ReplyMore Sharing ServicesShare Share on email Share on facebook Share on twitterjetsparkle

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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by jetsparkle on Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:02 AM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 21, 2015 2:42 PM Magdal wrote:

JC and all friends on this thread say a prayer for my husband He passed away on 18 august at 7:30 am We tried to go for 3 bp today to toronto clinic but Could not make it please pray for us and his soul I wish no obe hasto go through what my family went through MagdaMagda,

Heartfelt condolences and sympathy to you upon this loss of your beloved husband.

You tried so valiantly to help him--and I am so very sorry that along the way you had such terrible experiences while trying to do so.

I hope that you will have the loving support and comfort of family and friends in the upcoming days.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:13 AM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 21, 2015 2:42 PM Magdal wrote:

JC and all friends on this thread say a prayer for my husband He passed away on 18 august at 7:30 am We tried to go for 3 bp today to toronto clinic but Could not make it please pray for us and his soul I wish no obe hasto go through what my family went through MagdaMagdal, I am so sorry. May you find some comfort in the memories you have of him. I keep you close to my heart today.
Quote | Reply

### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Fri Aug 21, 2015 08:00 PM
Quote | ReplyDear Magdal:

There is a special place in heaven for those people whose last effort on earth is to point the way for the people behind them.

Your husband's struggle with pancreatic cancer cost him his life. Yet, those who pass along the same path will now have a compass star to guide them on their way.

We on this thread are honored that you pursued 3-BP treatment to the end for you husband. It reminds all of us on the thread of our great responsibility.

Your great love and compassion for your husband have been clearly shown to us.

Many Thoughts and Good Wishes to You.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:35 PM
Quote | ReplyInteresting thioridazine, a commonly used anti-psychotic drug, had differentiation effects on leukemia and breast cancer stem cells.

http://ac.els-cdn.com/S0092867412005715/1-s2.0-S009286741200
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by sbstrum on Sat Aug 22, 2015 09:02 AM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 17, 2015 12:34 AM Jcancom wrote:

This thread has consistently attracted posts from clinical leaders in 3-BP and other cancer scientists. Their informed input is very much appreciated. We welcome a range of opinion on 3-BP treatment, both positive and negative.

I am very grateful for the recent posting by someone with direct knowledge of the potential and problems of 3-BP.

This thread is drawing a global following, I would ask anyone whether abroad or not if they are aware of any non-Western nations using 3-BP. We are aware of a clinic in The Philippines that might even be treating with second generation 3-BP, one in Columbia that has treated with 3-BP and unofficial clinics in Mexico.

Are there any other such clinics?

Western researchers have understood for quite some time that the regulatory environment present in many industrialized nations has become excessively restricted. In many nations a possible cure for cancer such as 3-BP could never emerge not because cancer cannot be cured ( it was proven 20 years ago that metastatic cancer can be cured in lab models), but instead because there is no solution to the regulatory and other obstructions. It is disheartening to realize that after all the evidence that has accumulated over the last 15 years (including clinical reports) nations would still prohibit terminally ill cancer patients with no remaining lines of treatment from accessing 3-BP.

It is a moral outrage.

It is also a democratic outrage. The conduct of several democratic nations is clearly at odds with the will of their people on medical treatment choice. Activists who pushed this issue (by for example, taunting governement to arrest and prosecute terminally ill cancer patients for trying 3-BP) would score an almost certain victory. Several posters have noted the legal dangers they and those who help them obtain 3-BP treatment are exposed to.

There are still pristine places on this planet largely untouched by the duplicity of modern civilization. These places often allow a highly unregulated medical treatment context. (To a somewhat scary degree.)

Anyone know of these clincs? Readers of this thread would be very interested to learn more about them.
First, let me say that I was active on this thread for a short time but left because I felt that the input was degenerating in its quality.  I have now been prompted by a private email to possibly reinitiate my comments.  I am a medical oncologist with work in the cancer field since 1963--that's 52 years of in the field experience.  I know many of the notable physicians and scientists in medicine.  I would agree with just about everything that Jcancom has stated in the post I am now replying to.  I do not feel that those who call themselves healthcare practitioners (HCPs) serve any real purpose in promoting "novel" treatments unless there is a FORMAL PROTOCOL with objective collection of data with the goal of SHARING that data to the medical and lay world once results are obtained.  I am remiss in my many attempts over decades to find an ANSWER TO CANCER in not reporting the negative results to so many "cancer cures".  I don't have an explanation for those, especially MDs, who promote a treatment or treatments that have shown no efficacy upon scrutinous review other than greed.  Why become a MD & offer false hope & treat patient after patient with anything that is not effective?  That is cruel and inhumane, yet I see this again and again, on almost a weekly basis.

I am working in the spirit of collaboration and collegiality with Dr. El Sayed in Egypt & we have written a formal protocol on the use of 3BP.  It is in its final draft stages.  I will need to get Dr. El Sayed's permission to openly share that protocol and hope it generates some meaningful human data given the paucity of peer-reviewed literature on 3BP in the treatment of human cancer.  My concern, and I am sure his too, will be those physicians and non-physicians who will be quick to adopt this protocol & absue it in the name of greed, instead of deed.  So right now, at this moment, I feel conflicted about what to do.

I will read some of the additional posts below to see if more of my time is possibly going to be well spent on this blog.  I have some difficulty in understanding how the threads are laid out and why I see so much duplication in content in this site.  Am I the only one that has this difficulty?

Stephen B. Strum, MD, FACP; board-certified medical oncologist, member of ASCO, ASTRO, AUA, International Strategic Cancer Alliance (ISCA).
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Freyr on Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:22 AM
Quote | ReplyI am glad that you came back to us, Dr. Strum.

I very much would like you to comment about an idea that occured to me in July - it occured to me that since mainstream pharma is not much interested in researching 3BP and other promising agents, then maybe it would be a good idea to create a non-profit organization dedicated to dtudying the Warburg effect. The organization would sustain itself via donations from the society and would conduct crowdfunded clinical trials. What's your opinion about that, Dr?
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Sat Aug 22, 2015 12:37 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 22, 2015 1:02 PM sbstrum wrote:

On Aug 17, 2015 12:34 AM Jcancom wrote:

This thread has consistently attracted posts from clinical leaders in 3-BP and other cancer scientists. Their informed input is very much appreciated. We welcome a range of opinion on 3-BP treatment, both positive and negative.

I am very grateful for the recent posting by someone with direct knowledge of the potential and problems of 3-BP.

This thread is drawing a global following, I would ask anyone whether abroad or not if they are aware of any non-Western nations using 3-BP. We are aware of a clinic in The Philippines that might even be treating with second generation 3-BP, one in Columbia that has treated with 3-BP and unofficial clinics in Mexico.

Are there any other such clinics?

Western researchers have understood for quite some time that the regulatory environment present in many industrialized nations has become excessively restricted. In many nations a possible cure for cancer such as 3-BP could never emerge not because cancer cannot be cured ( it was proven 20 years ago that metastatic cancer can be cured in lab models), but instead because there is no solution to the regulatory and other obstructions. It is disheartening to realize that after all the evidence that has accumulated over the last 15 years (including clinical reports) nations would still prohibit terminally ill cancer patients with no remaining lines of treatment from accessing 3-BP.

It is a moral outrage.

It is also a democratic outrage. The conduct of several democratic nations is clearly at odds with the will of their people on medical treatment choice. Activists who pushed this issue (by for example, taunting governement to arrest and prosecute terminally ill cancer patients for trying 3-BP) would score an almost certain victory. Several posters have noted the legal dangers they and those who help them obtain 3-BP treatment are exposed to.

There are still pristine places on this planet largely untouched by the duplicity of modern civilization. These places often allow a highly unregulated medical treatment context. (To a somewhat scary degree.)

Anyone know of these clincs? Readers of this thread would be very interested to learn more about them.
First, let me say that I was active on this thread for a short time but left because I felt that the input was degenerating in its quality.  I have now been prompted by a private email to possibly reinitiate my comments.  I am a medical oncologist with work in the cancer field since 1963--that's 52 years of in the field experience.  I know many of the notable physicians and scientists in medicine.  I would agree with just about everything that Jcancom has stated in the post I am now replying to.  I do not feel that those who call themselves healthcare practitioners (HCPs) serve any real purpose in promoting "novel" treatments unless there is a FORMAL PROTOCOL with objective collection of data with the goal of SHARING that data to the medical and lay world once results are obtained.  I am remiss in my many attempts over decades to find an ANSWER TO CANCER in not reporting the negative results to so many "cancer cures".  I don't have an explanation for those, especially MDs, who promote a treatment or treatments that have shown no efficacy upon scrutinous review other than greed.  Why become a MD & offer false hope & treat patient after patient with anything that is not effective?  That is cruel and inhumane, yet I see this again and again, on almost a weekly basis.

I am working in the spirit of collaboration and collegiality with Dr. El Sayed in Egypt & we have written a formal protocol on the use of 3BP.  It is in its final draft stages.  I will need to get Dr. El Sayed's permission to openly share that protocol and hope it generates some meaningful human data given the paucity of peer-reviewed literature on 3BP in the treatment of human cancer.  My concern, and I am sure his too, will be those physicians and non-physicians who will be quick to adopt this protocol & absue it in the name of greed, instead of deed.  So right now, at this moment, I feel conflicted about what to do.

I will read some of the additional posts below to see if more of my time is possibly going to be well spent on this blog.  I have some difficulty in understanding how the threads are laid out and why I see so much duplication in content in this site.  Am I the only one that has this difficulty?

Stephen B. Strum, MD, FACP; board-certified medical oncologist, member of ASCO, ASTRO, AUA, International Strategic Cancer Alliance (ISCA).
You are not the only one to see the constant repetition via a box system. This is very confusing to me as well.

Thankful to see some collaboration going on as opposed to the usual "who'll get there first and win the big prize?" rubbish. The prize is a cure for cancer, not the $ and fame that comes with it.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Sat Aug 22, 2015 04:49 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 22, 2015 1:02 PM sbstrum wrote:

On Aug 17, 2015 12:34 AM Jcancom wrote:

This thread has consistently attracted posts from clinical leaders in 3-BP and other cancer scientists. Their informed input is very much appreciated. We welcome a range of opinion on 3-BP treatment, both positive and negative.

I am very grateful for the recent posting by someone with direct knowledge of the potential and problems of 3-BP.

This thread is drawing a global following, I would ask anyone whether abroad or not if they are aware of any non-Western nations using 3-BP. We are aware of a clinic in The Philippines that might even be treating with second generation 3-BP, one in Columbia that has treated with 3-BP and unofficial clinics in Mexico.

Are there any other such clinics?

Western researchers have understood for quite some time that the regulatory environment present in many industrialized nations has become excessively restricted. In many nations a possible cure for cancer such as 3-BP could never emerge not because cancer cannot be cured ( it was proven 20 years ago that metastatic cancer can be cured in lab models), but instead because there is no solution to the regulatory and other obstructions. It is disheartening to realize that after all the evidence that has accumulated over the last 15 years (including clinical reports) nations would still prohibit terminally ill cancer patients with no remaining lines of treatment from accessing 3-BP.

It is a moral outrage.

It is also a democratic outrage. The conduct of several democratic nations is clearly at odds with the will of their people on medical treatment choice. Activists who pushed this issue (by for example, taunting governement to arrest and prosecute terminally ill cancer patients for trying 3-BP) would score an almost certain victory. Several posters have noted the legal dangers they and those who help them obtain 3-BP treatment are exposed to.

There are still pristine places on this planet largely untouched by the duplicity of modern civilization. These places often allow a highly unregulated medical treatment context. (To a somewhat scary degree.)

Anyone know of these clincs? Readers of this thread would be very interested to learn more about them.
First, let me say that I was active on this thread for a short time but left because I felt that the input was degenerating in its quality.  I have now been prompted by a private email to possibly reinitiate my comments.  I am a medical oncologist with work in the cancer field since 1963--that's 52 years of in the field experience.  I know many of the notable physicians and scientists in medicine.  I would agree with just about everything that Jcancom has stated in the post I am now replying to.  I do not feel that those who call themselves healthcare practitioners (HCPs) serve any real purpose in promoting "novel" treatments unless there is a FORMAL PROTOCOL with objective collection of data with the goal of SHARING that data to the medical and lay world once results are obtained.  I am remiss in my many attempts over decades to find an ANSWER TO CANCER in not reporting the negative results to so many "cancer cures".  I don't have an explanation for those, especially MDs, who promote a treatment or treatments that have shown no efficacy upon scrutinous review other than greed.  Why become a MD & offer false hope & treat patient after patient with anything that is not effective?  That is cruel and inhumane, yet I see this again and again, on almost a weekly basis.

I am working in the spirit of collaboration and collegiality with Dr. El Sayed in Egypt & we have written a formal protocol on the use of 3BP.  It is in its final draft stages.  I will need to get Dr. El Sayed's permission to openly share that protocol and hope it generates some meaningful human data given the paucity of peer-reviewed literature on 3BP in the treatment of human cancer.  My concern, and I am sure his too, will be those physicians and non-physicians who will be quick to adopt this protocol & absue it in the name of greed, instead of deed.  So right now, at this moment, I feel conflicted about what to do.

I will read some of the additional posts below to see if more of my time is possibly going to be well spent on this blog.  I have some difficulty in understanding how the threads are laid out and why I see so much duplication in content in this site.  Am I the only one that has this difficulty?

Stephen B. Strum, MD, FACP; board-certified medical oncologist, member of ASCO, ASTRO, AUA, International Strategic Cancer Alliance (ISCA).
Dear Dr. sbstrum, welcome back to this discussion. We did work a lot to get to this point of understanding and we hope you are going to build on this and add great value.

So far there are several protocols in place used across the world? How are you going to make a 3BP protocol more FORMAL than those?

What are your new ideas about 3BP?
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sat Aug 22, 2015 05:05 PM
Quote | ReplyWhat if a form glucose version were used to create a metabolic catastrophe?

As was noted earlier in this thread, virtually all analogs of pyruvic acid have anti-cancer properties. Anything that looks to the cancer cell as if it were a tasty meal, but turns out to be a no cal snack places metabolic stress on these cells. How about glucose analogs?

If an analog form of glucose could be provided to the body, there would be no path to resistance. Cancer needs a fuel source, even more so than regular cells. Cancer cells can mutate their MCT-1 and close these doors, then 3-BP becomes ineffective. It is not possible to use this strategy for glucose because glucose is essential. Cancer can do without 3-BP, but not glucose.

Not only would cancer cells not be able to resist such a form of glucose, but also glucose might be modified in such a way that an energy trap could be created. For example, consider what would happen if an entirely non-toxic chemical that was analogous to glucose entered glycolysis and successfully completed the first 5 steps (the investment phase). The cancer cell has invested 2 ATP per glucose molecule. What would happen now if the glucose analog molecule for whatever reason now could not continue with glycolysis? This would be similar to those lemons (car) that are money pits. After spending a ton of money and you want to go out on a ride, the wheels always fall off!

Such a chemical would create an energy catastrophe for the cancer cell. The cancer cell would then be producing -20% energy. This is not possible even in the short run. Cancer cell metabolism cannot be a net consumer of energy. Eventhough it could be made quite non-toxic, once it entered cells it would cause a metabolic collapse.

Such an approach might also use the glucose form of 3-BP.

http://3bromopyruvate.wikia.com/wiki/Special:NewFiles

The photo on the top row second from the left with the green, yellow etc. ovals is alpha-D-glucopyranose. This is the form of glucose present in the body (about 99% of all glucose in the body is in this form).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucose

What I found interesting was that the green ovals would form 1 pyruvate molecule and the purple ovals would form another pyruvate molecule after glycolysis were completed.

I wonder what would happen if one were to replace one of the yellow ovals and / or one of the pink ovals or the associated oxygens on these pyruvates with bromine atom(s). If glycolysis could proceed under such circumstances, then one would end glycolysiss with 1 or 2 molecules of 3-BP! Possibly even more effective would be if only the investment phase were possible. There would then be no energy payback. It would be a metabolic crisis for the cancer cell though not a normal cell.

This might be less worrisome than giving straight 3-BP as it could reduce concerns of toxicity. You would in effect be giving a prodrug version of 3-BP.

It is interesting to also note that 3-BrOP shown on the above wikia url on the far right of the top row also has 6 carbons and might perhaps also become a cyclic glucopyranose in the body. However, it is not entirely clear.  3-BrOP does not appear as if it would "wrap around" and form a correct cyclic glucopyranose molecule.

This idea does not seem to have been overlooked. A mono-bromo-glucopyranose substituted chemical along the lines [with IUPAC name: (3R,6R)-2-bromo-6-(hydroxymethyl)oxane-3,4,5-triol ]
suggested above has been patented for diabetes (no mention of cancer).

http://www.chemicalize.org/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freepatents

There are a whole bunch of chemicals that could be made by substituting 1 or 2 hydrogens and or oxygens with bromine (and/or chlorine ...) in glucopyranose. Could go to http://www.chemicalize.org/  and play around with all the different forms possible. Might start with below SMILES.

Smiles: OC[C@]1(Br)O[C@@H](O)[C@H](O)C(O)(Br)C1O
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Caddy on Sat Aug 22, 2015 05:23 PM
Quote | ReplyDear Dr Strum,

Firstly, thanks for contributing to this thread. I also share your frustration at the repetition in responses. We would hope that posters will hit 'reply' not 'quote' and then, when faced with the empty reply box, ensure that "quote the message I am replying to" isn't checked.

I share your desire to see 3BP used ethically and with full disclosure - it is potentially too important a development to give misleading information around. However, my experience has been that most clinics and self-administering individuals are acting out of a genuine desire to help their patients and share their experiences.

But you are right: there are few published studies on 3BP's use in human cancers. Of course, we all know the reason for that, but that still ensures that many oncologists (my own included) are able to say 'there's no evidence that 3BP works'. So, in an attempt to find a middle ground between randomized control trials involving hundreds of patients and taking 7-10 years, and anecdotal, undocumented, reports, I've been urging participants on this thread to collate data, and collectively we could potentially start to shed light on when 3BP seems to work, and when it doesn't.

I would very much hope that you'd be willing to share data (even if anonymised) to add to our knowledge bank. I'm currently grappling with what categories/criteria would shed the most light, without overly adding to practitioners workloads.

If you have any ideas on this matter, please share them with us.

Finally, you may find that an occasional post here may trigger many questions. Some MDs have preferred to communicate through a designated person. So far, that person has been Danielus, and if that makes it easier for your to disseminate your ideas, working through Danielus may be something you wish to consider.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sat Aug 22, 2015 06:14 PM
Quote | ReplyI have suggest off thread that we could consider moving the thread to the below url. The wikia has all sorts of features that would improve our ability to communicate effectively with one another.

http://3bromopyruvate.wikia.com/wiki/Board:Questions\_and\_Ans

If one of the thread's expert posters could make the transition everyone else would quickly follow along. I tried doing posting their has a trail blazer, though no one followed along!

Simply creating a new topic in the above url or replying to the existing thread would get things in motion. Threads on the wikia are collapsible and organizable which would greatly simplify reading the postings.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sat Aug 22, 2015 06:24 PM
Quote | ReplyJust one thing to be aware of with the wikia is that it is a .com. Their business model seems to be to attract as many viewers as possible through free wikias and then sell advertising from there. A whole lot of breakfast cereal ads will be coming our way if we migrate there.

We are trying to Cure Cancer! All this commercial motivation feels beneath us.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Sat Aug 22, 2015 06:48 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 22, 2015 10:24 PM Jcancom wrote:

Just one thing to be aware of with the wikia is that it is a .com. Their business model seems to be to attract as many viewers as possible through free wikias and then sell advertising from there. A whole lot of breakfast cereal ads will be coming our way if we migrate there.

We are trying to Cure Cancer! All this commercial motivation feels beneath us.
J, this is also the reason why I recently made my blog: I needed the info consolidated and I did not like wikia - is too dirty with all those advertisments. On the otehr hand, I believe that while Cancer Compass may have its weak points it also has a lot of strong points. The reason this thread became so big is not only because of the content and great members like you but also because of the platform and its visibility. Would you leave behind everything we build here to move everything to a wikia page where it will probaly be only us? I would only use external locations such as wikia or my blog to consolidate info while I would still keep the main discussion around 3BP here .... I hope I convince you to stay around :)
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by sbstrum on Sat Aug 22, 2015 07:50 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 22, 2015 2:22 PM Freyr wrote:

I am glad that you came back to us, Dr. Strum.

I very much would like you to comment about an idea that occured to me in July - it occured to me that since mainstream pharma is not much interested in researching 3BP and other promising agents, then maybe it would be a good idea to create a non-profit organization dedicated to dtudying the Warburg effect. The organization would sustain itself via donations from the society and would conduct crowdfunded clinical trials. What's your opinion about that, Dr?
Freyr,

I have been down the non-profit path before & I could not grow it to the platform that I envisioned.  Too many major names in DCA and 3BP that have not carried the ball despite being in the field a long time.  Some Bill Gates type of person would have to not only endow such an enterprise but assist in finding people of special talent (PST) to be part of such an organization dealing with protocols of promise (POP).  Otherwise more banging ones head against the wall.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by sbstrum on Sat Aug 22, 2015 07:54 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 22, 2015 10:24 PM Jcancom wrote:

Just one thing to be aware of with the wikia is that it is a .com. Their business model seems to be to attract as many viewers as possible through free wikias and then sell advertising from there. A whole lot of breakfast cereal ads will be coming our way if we migrate there.

We are trying to Cure Cancer! All this commercial motivation feels beneath us.
Jcancom,

I have been involved in a wiki with absolutely no advertising and with a structure a heck of a lot better than this site, which for me, an advanced user of the Mac, remains confusing.  And on the wiki set up for me I was able to share files such as PDFs, jpgs, PowerPoint, Excel, etc with the readers.  The person that hosted the wiki is/was Nancy Peress.

See:

http://strum.pbworks.com/

After approval, you'll receive an email with a clickable link that will allow you to set up your wiki account and preferred password.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sat Aug 22, 2015 08:07 PM
Quote | ReplyThank you D. Those words feel great. No need to worry about me going it alone. I have already been marooned by myself on that wikia. It is so much easier to build something together than alone.

Here is something interesting. Apparently the liver acts as a magnet for glucose after a meal when it is plentiful and then disperses this glucose when glucose is low in the blood stream. So the liver is like a bank for glucose: when times are good glucose goes in, when they are not so good glucose goes out. This effect is a result of the hexokinase used by the liver: glucokinase which has a different km than regular hexokinase.

This might provide some insight into why liver cancer and kidney cancer can be so dangerous: If they are acting as the body's glucose magnet than cancer cells could grow uncontrollably. Wonder whether there could be a way to target this behavior? For example, when glucose levels are high than much of the glucose would flow into the liver. Any chemical that seemed glucose like ( for example, the idea I posted above) would also flow preferentially into the liver. (A while back we wondered about a similar situaiton on this thread. For example, the responder to DCA with NHL seemed to do especially well with a Mountain Dew with the DCA. We wondered whether this was related to the caffeine or the glucose. Perhaps it was the gluocse?? Not sure about that though.)

Perhaps one way to starve a liver or kidney tumor would be to simply never create post prandial extremes in blood glucose levels. The liver and kidney might then be confused and think it was never dinner time. This could place liver and kidney cancer cells under considerable pressure.

http://themedicalbiochemistrypage.org/glycolysis.php#reactio
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sat Aug 22, 2015 08:44 PM
Quote | ReplyOh, this is great! If an expert poster gets on board with moving to somewhere with better technology then the thread will follow their leadership. Last time I tried to show some leadership I wound up on a deserted island without a Friday!

{Note to Self: Next you show some leadership make sure the people recognize you as the leader.}

The technology on this thread is abysmal. I have seen graffiti on washroom stalls that was better organized than this thread. I think it would be a good idea to look into these non-commercial wikis.

At the same time I do not want to wreck this thread in the process of trying to improve it. We have already noted on this thread that other threads that have made even minor changes to their login procedures or posting protocols often folded up as some people simply were unable to make the adjustment.

To avoid that we could simply migrate the conversation to another url and then repost to this thread. If people felt more comfortable staying on this thread, then they could still post here. So, we could make it backward compatible. Nothing would need to change for those who do not want change.

However, there would just be so many benefits in having the right technology. It would be amazing, for example, if there were a 3D blackboard where we could discuss articles with links and figures. It is quite confining trying to discuss biology using only words.

We should consider this wiki idea, though at the same time we should also be sensitive to the many concerns that might exist if this were implemented ( privacy, commercial interests, freedom of speech, ...). We can go slow, but forward. Less leadership and more consultation with the thread is probably the best way.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Sat Aug 22, 2015 09:53 PM
Quote | ReplyToday, IV preparation/administration was included: http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=47#comment-52
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sat Aug 22, 2015 09:57 PM
Quote | ReplyA formal 3-BP protocol would move the game forward for everyone. Using a standardized treatment plan allows for patients to be compared against alternative treatment plans. This could allow us to incrementally move to the optimal treatment.

Statistics for responses to 3-BP treatments without such a standardized treatment might simply be comparing apples with oranges.

Expert opinion could offer patients a first evidence based protocol that incorporated the findings from the substantial research already conducted into 3-BP. For instance, the proper dosing cycles with the optimal period between cycles. This might help prevent resistance problems from developing. It might also suggest co-treatments to activate a 3-BP response and to magnify the effects of treatment.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:25 AM
Quote | ReplyAnother one ready, i.e. 3BP administration protocol and traetments strategy. http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184

My weekend is gone but hope this will help someone. If you use any of the info there can you please help Caddy collect the results?
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:36 AM
Quote | Replyhttp://www.cornerstonepharma.com/clinical-trials

http://www.cornerstonepharma.com/wp-content/uploads/AACR-Pos

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01832857?term=CPI%3D6
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:50 AM
Quote | ReplyNever knew there were anti-mitochondrial antibodies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mitochondrial\_antibody
Quote | Reply

### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:08 AM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 23, 2015 2:50 PM Jcancom wrote:

Never knew there were anti-mitochondrial antibodies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mitochondrial\_antibody "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mitochondrial\_antibody " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mitochondrial\_antibody
J, any questions, comments or additions regarding the 3BP protocolo http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184?

I would expect you would have something to say. Or not?
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Caddy on Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:13 AM
Quote | ReplyJ,

Are you including these links in response to Danielus request to send data to me? As far as I know, CPI-613 is not the same as 3BP, and I would like us to keep a sharp focus.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sun Aug 23, 2015 01:38 PM
Quote | Reply{I am finding this idea of an NADH diet intriguing. Give the mitochondria it's fuel supply directly:NADH . Don't feed the cancer with glucose. This would select only those cancer cells with functioning mitochondria. Such cells require an oxygen source for survival. Perhaps could then go in with 3-BP.}

OK, that is right we need to focus here on the protocol.

Could we upload the protocol to the wikia so that we could copy edit and add suggestions to it?

The protocol suggested dosing in the mornings. I am interested in this chronobiology side of 3-BP. Research has found significant chronobiology effects in human cancer patients. Wonder whether there has been any mice studies with 3-BP at different treatment times during the day. Perhaps the protocol should note that some of these variables could have an influence on treatment outcome and that patients might consider adjusting these variables. Great thing with metabolic treatments is that response to such adjustments can be detected quickly.

http://permanent.access.gpo.gov/lps37699/MelatoninSummary.pd
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Caddy on Sun Aug 23, 2015 02:08 PM
Quote | ReplyJ,

I can't speak for NADH, as I don't know enough about it. But my understanding is that you can't starve cancer cells entirely of glucose - not least because carbs get converted into glucose. Having tried (and failed) the Ketogenic Diet for two weeks, I experienced massive weakness with so few carbs and Dom D'Agostino has himself admitted that the Ketogenic Diet is very hard to follow. So, I beleive we have to focus our efforts on to other areas - currently I'm symptom-free with my cancer, so I'd hate to be telling a very sick patient what they could and couldn't eat.

Regarding a wiki for 3BP: I think that's a very bad idea (and I've written a book about the need for open information!). These are not formulations to play around with - if there's a version which appears on a wiki, people will assume a credibility which it simply may not have. I believe the formulations on cancertreatments.com , because I know who has researched, refined, consulted and experimented before making them public. Editing that will not only confuse people - it could potentially have serious legal implications.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Sun Aug 23, 2015 02:09 PM

Quote | Reply

J, agree let’s focus on the content instead of relocation of the content. If there is anything new we learn I will edit and add the content accordingly.

Your point is right - there are so many variables that have impact on how the human body reacts to a specific treatment. I did touched this field a bit, a few months ago. One of the very interesting point I found was related to the immune system cycle which would have a 7 days period of oscillation. That can be identified with a simple blood test of CRP and the treatments can be targeted accordingly. Here is an article on that line http://www.translational-medicine.com/content/7/1/102

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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sun Aug 23, 2015 02:42 PM
Quote | ReplyIn cellular respiration, NADH is the primary energy carrier to the mitochondria. After all the convoluted steps in cellular respiration, it pretty much boils down to simply NADH. Providing the cell NADH might be devastating to cancer. Cells would be directly given their fuel: no glycolysis would occur.

This would be devastating for cancer cells.

All right let's focus on the protocol.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sun Aug 23, 2015 03:22 PM
Quote | Replyhttp://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184

Here`s some typos.

-Administer (Administrate) 3BP every day. ... Take afew weeks break (brake) after a cycle then (than) ... Preferably, perform 3 cycles (there are 3 cycles performed).

-Preferably, administer (administrate) 3BP early ...

-(keep those that are essential(essentials)

-Wait one hour for 3BP effectiveness then (than) if .... if not then (than)

-administering (administrating) Oxygen during 3BP will help

- ... or it can be alternated weekly (between the week)

... identify the one with (to which) the highest visible (or measurable ) response (is visible)

... It helps to reduce gluthathione (glutathdiole?) level

...could prove to be (become)

.. across the (teh) membrane

That got many of them.

This is a document is a great 3-BP resource. It addresses many of the concerns that we have had. I had quite a few of my questions about 3-BP treatment answered.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Sun Aug 23, 2015 03:40 PM
Quote | ReplyThank you J. There are many of those indeed. When writing I applied this concept:

it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae... http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/people/matt.davis/cmabridge/

Lets see if we get other ideas to improve the protocol. Dr. J. Williams has a strong positive impact on that. I hope Dr, Strum will have good ideas as well.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sun Aug 23, 2015 04:23 PM
Quote | ReplyIt is great that the protocol is addressing the main features of 3-BP: MCT-1 downregulation ( with Oxygen ..), lactate and glutamate resistance, and the acidic environment of the tumor.

The scary idea that 3-BP treatment could lead to an aggressive rebound response can now be understood in terms of 3-BP uncovering an hypoxic substratum. Such cancer cells would rely almost exclusively for glycolysis. Knowing this one could upregulate MCT-1 and pressure glycolysis in other ways
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sun Aug 23, 2015 05:06 PM
Quote | Reply"Cimetidine also affects the metabolism ofmethadone, sometimes resulting in higher blood levels and a higher incidence of side effects, and may interact with theantimalarialmedicationhydroxychloroquine "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimetidine
Quote | Reply

### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by jetsparkle on Sun Aug 23, 2015 05:31 PM
Quote | ReplyTnahk you, D!  I neeedd a good lgauh tdoay!
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sun Aug 23, 2015 05:35 PM
Quote | ReplyThis article from the protocol is a good one. It links together glutamine and MCT-1 regulation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3541294/
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sun Aug 23, 2015 06:01 PM
Quote | ReplyVery interesting. The list I provided the other day for upregulation of MCT-1 included lactate. The article above  notes that glutamine deprivation also upregulates MCT-1. The protocol is shutting down the resistance pathways to 3-BP treatment.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Sun Aug 23, 2015 06:50 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 23, 2015 10:01 PM Jcancom wrote:

Very interesting. The list I provided the other day for upregulation of MCT-1 included lactate. The article above  notes that glutamine deprivation also upregulates MCT-1. The protocol is shutting down the resistance pathways to 3-BP treatment.
How would you shut off a specific amino acid?
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sun Aug 23, 2015 09:21 PM
Quote | ReplyWell, yes that is where the hand waving comes in. Then after some very intense mathematical expressions one might say something and "It obviously follows that ..."

The authors of http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3541294/  talked of how depleting glutamine could be driven into the clinic.

This auxotrophic approach has been used in other cancers. For example, a late stage cancer trial is pushing down arginine levels. The treatment almost eliminates arginine in the blood stream. Yet, with arginine it is non-essential for normal cells and essential for some cancer cells.

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01287585?term=Polaris

I am not totally sure whether glutamine would also be considered non-essential. Perhaps anti-autophagy treatments might help. The protocol also mentions avoiding red meat which is high in glutamine.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:42 PM
Quote | ReplyI had to share this one with the thread. We have noted several new 3-BP formulations on the thread.

This article gives the recipe for liposomal 3-BP.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4501223/

Considering the enhanced anti-cancer effects offered and the fairly modest technical skill required to  make these formulations the thread might consider transitioning our discussions to this new generation of 3-BP product.

Would a liposomal formulation be suitable for IVs?
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:13 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 24, 2015 2:42 AM Jcancom wrote:

I had to share this one with the thread. We have noted several new 3-BP formulations on the thread.

This article gives the recipe for liposomal 3-BP.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4501223/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4501223/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4501223/

Considering the enhanced anti-cancer effects offered and the fairly modest technical skill required to  make these formulations the thread might consider transitioning our discussions to this new generation of 3-BP product.

Would a liposomal formulation be suitable for IVs?
We used to make liposomal vit. C.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:21 PM
Quote | ReplyLiposomal 3-BP might be the most doable of all of these formulations that we have seen in the published artilces. We will need to think carefully whether the liposomal formulation technique is applicable to 3-BP.

http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/67050-make-your-own-lip

http://qualityliposomalc.com/

The thread considered liposomal 3-BP on May 18. Seemed like a good idea to us then, still might be.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:26 PM
Quote | ReplyReally? OK, if we have PST around here then the thread should use this knowledge.

I am just not sure whether it is as simple as using the same liposomal technique used for Vitamin C  and then applying it to 3-BP. M, did you use a sonicator to make the liposomal Vitamin C? On the posts of May 18 D thought liposomal 3-BP might be sensible. For some reason the thread just drifted past this one without thinking carefully about it. The article I posted showed that liposomal 3-BP did amp up the effect against cancer.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:52 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 24, 2015 3:26 AM Jcancom wrote:

Really? OK, if we have PST around here then the thread should use this knowledge.

I am just not sure whether it is as simple as using the same liposomal technique used for Vitamin C  and then applying it to 3-BP. M, did you use a sonicator to make the liposomal Vitamin C? On the posts of May 18 D thought liposomal 3-BP might be sensible. For some reason the thread just drifted past this one without thinking carefully about it. The article I posted showed that liposomal 3-BP did amp up the effect against cancer.
Yes, we used an ultrasonic machine (big one) and lecithin.
Quote | Reply

### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:09 AM
Quote | ReplyWow! This is great! I just figure you keep on trying and sooner or later something is going to happen.

Um, M do you think you might just give liposomal 3-BP a try? I am not sure whether lecithin is the proper ingredient to use with 3-BP, the article appears to use something else. If you bake up a batch others might want to try this out too. We'll need some grown supervision from D, though.

Could just give it a trial run. Perhaps there is a simple way to figure out the yield.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:41 AM
Quote | ReplyI don't know how we missed this one! This really could be a breakthrough for 3-BP.

We need some type of cancer that could storm the beach for us. Clear cell renal cancer appears to be the one.

It seems that most CCRC have very sparse mitochondrial content, and naturally upregulated MCT-1, that is they are highly dependent on glycolysis: which are the perfect conditions for 3-BP. Patients with such a cancer profile might not require all sorts of compensating cotreatments to make 3-BP work for them: 3-BP would almost naturally work.

Not all CCRC, but it would appear quite a bit are like this. Perhaps we should post to the CCRC threads. These patients could really really benefit from 3-BP. The micro-dosing for first treatment might make considerable sense for them.

http://www.nature.com/cddis/journal/v6/n1/full/cddis2014545a
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Caddy on Mon Aug 24, 2015 08:30 AM
Quote | ReplyVery interesting, J. One does wonder how it's been missed. But well done for spotting it. I guess with enough eyeballs on any problem, bugs can be fixed!Quote | ReplyMore Sharing ServicesShare Share on email Share on facebook Share on twitterJcancom

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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:20 AM
Quote | ReplyI think the solid rockets have just ignited. This space ship is going somewhere!

Everything that is needed for huge responses appear to be present in many CCRC primary cell lines.

1. Extremely glycolytic tumors? Yes!

If there are few if any mitochondria in these cells, then this by definition means that there is no fallback energy pathway.

2. Upregulated MCT-1? Yes

The above article noted high MCT-1 expression in CCRC cells.

CCRC appears to be an ideal testing ground for 3-BP.

Until now we have been stuck in limbo as we have contemplated how many and how well patients might respond to 3-BP. It now appears from the January 2015 CCRC article above that there is an ideal test population of cancer patients. These patients might have large responses. This work was only done in cells but it seems extremely promising.

A success in such a patient population could end all debate whether 3-BP were effective or not. The only fall back argument will be which specific patients it will be effective in.

I think the thread should take the time to seriously ponder this new information. Oftentimes our thread is so unfocused that we miss important developments. Admittedly, that is generally the result of my own postings. However, we should not let this one just float by.

Kidney cancer is a fairly common cancer. 90% of kidney cancer is renal cell carcinoma. The clear cell variety is quite common.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renal\_cell\_carcinoma

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1612043-overview#a2

Comments from the thread?
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by peggyznd on Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:53 AM
Quote | ReplyMy question after reading the abstract is whether there is a way to deliver this drug, as the abstract mentioned work only in the laboratory.  Is there a deliverable agent currently in manufacture which can do this?

There is a growing interest in seeing RCC as a metabolic disease, and also in the realization that even clear cell kidney cancer may contain four or more subtypes, based on the molecular nature of the disease.  Assume that there are many varieties of CRC, which confound the ability to match drug to specific patient.

I write a blog for patients at www.peggyRCC.com  which might be of interest.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:21 PM
Quote | ReplyWelcome new Poster!

Our thread has been stuck for months and months trying to move 3-BP forward. CCRC could be our foot in the door. From the article noted above it would not be unexpected if CCRC patients had substantial treatment responses to 3-BP.

Yes, there is a deliverable agent. 3-BP is now offered at several clinics, typically dosed IV or oral.

http://3bromopyruvate.wikia.com/wiki/7.\_Clinics\_Offering\_3-B

A member of our thread has just posted a 3-BP protocol.

http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184?

However, in light of this new research about CCRC, such a protocol might need to be reconsidered for those with CCRC.

Such patients might simply need 3-BP treatment without cotreatments and still expect good responses.

With this new characterization of CCRC there might really only be 2 relevant subtypes, 3-BP responding and non-responding. It would appear from the article that most CCRC responds to 3-BP.

I am not completely sure of the epidemiology of CCRC. Is it correct that most kidney cancer is renal cancer and most renal cancer is clear cell?

This would be awesome if you have reach into the clear cell renal carcinoma patient population. It appears that CCRC should be an absolutely ideal patient population.

The article makes a very persuasive argument.

1. The CCRC primary cell lines they looked at had almost no mitochondria. This should strongly imply that these cells would have no resistance metabolic pathway. They would be stuck almost entirely with glycolysis.This  had not been recognized before because the cells used in CCRC research were lab cell lines and not primary cell lines.

3-BP shuts down glycolysis.

This should mean that 3-BP could have a large anti-cancer effect against CCRC.

2. The article also said that MCT-1 was upregulated. This is very important. MCT-1 is the main doorway into the cell for 3-BP.

These 2 characteristics of CCRC cells make it an ideal test case for 3-BP. To be fair it is still not entirely clear whether this would translate into clinical responses, as the article is only in cells. However, I really do not see how cancer cells that had a near absence of mitochondria could simply mass produce them on cue. This would be a fundamental almost irrepairable defect in these cancer cells.

The one question that is puzzling me is: Why has not this been recognized before? There are other metabolic cancer drugs in development. Prescience Labs is readying clinical trials with its form of 3-BP in cancers of the liver and then pancreas, breast lung and ovarian. No kidney Cancer!

http://presciencelabs.com/cancer-treatment-progress/clinical

I am also unclear why this has not already been discovered by the 3-BP treatment clinics. Have there really been no CCRC patients who have tried 3-BP?

I think it would definitely be worthwhile for these patients to now consider at least a round of 3-BP treatment. There are clinics that would do this for $1000.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:31 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 24, 2015 4:09 AM Jcancom wrote:

Wow! This is great! I just figure you keep on trying and sooner or later something is going to happen.

Um, M do you think you might just give liposomal 3-BP a try? I am not sure whether lecithin is the proper ingredient to use with 3-BP, the article appears to use something else. If you bake up a batch others might want to try this out too. We'll need some grown supervision from D, though.

Could just give it a trial run. Perhaps there is a simple way to figure out the yield.
I'll read up on it. Am I "M" by the way? I thought I was "A" but I get confused these days...
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Caddy on Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:50 PM
Quote | ReplyJ,

Remember your recent post saying we should be on our best behaviour? I recently asked a senior executive of a cancer research charity what puts them off funding more treatments like 3 BP? The answer? Overclaiming (we have a cure!) based upon flimsy, anecdotal evidence.

It's great that the poster from CCRC has joined us, but please let's keep a lid on the claims. Your excitement is based on one article, with testing limited to in vitro only. Yes, it's interesting. Yes, it has possibilities. But we haven't actually been stuck for months on 3BP. We've been making steady progress, and we're moving towards what we really urgently need: evidence other than anecdotes.

I suspect the reason why the existing clinics haven't had many (if any, because we don't have the details of cancers being treated) patients with CCRC is because, as I understand it, it's not a common cancer type

And I don't think there are clinics that would offer a single round of treatment for $1000. You keep saying there are clinics that will offer a single round, but who are they? And we wouldn't be advocating a single shot, would we? Let's not come across like all the false-hope charlatans out there.

But if we could work with CCRC patients and carers to trial the protocol, that could be interesting.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:50 PM
Quote | ReplySorry Moon. I did not want to use Moon because with our new spelling system around here Moon can only be spelt one way. No fun in that!

This is a very exciting development! I would like the thread to carefully consider it. We have been lost for months trying to push 3-BP responses in less than ideal contexts. The CCRC cell type appears ideal. I am really not sure how it would not be effective in those CCRC patients with upregulated MCT-1 and few mitochrondia. Resistance migh develop eventually, though for many patients there would still be substantial benefit in the meanwhiel. Patients with no remaining treatment options in a simply waiting for the end stage could experience massive anti-tumor resonses. This is very exciting!

We might soon be adding quite a few new patient reports to our collection.

http://3bromopyruvate.wikia.com/wiki/3%282%29\_Human\_Patient\_

It looks like we might have found what we have been looking for during all these months!

I am just waiting to call this a launch!
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by LetterRip on Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:59 PM
Quote | ReplyFor the protocol listed at,

http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184?

Could the recommendation in the protocol be referenced to the literature supporting the recommendation or other reasoning?

The first line of the recommendation contradicts its self (5 days a week vs every day).  So is it every day or 5 on 2 off?

It would be nice to have a reasoning for particular blood tests - some are obvious, others are not.

The overview seems to contradict specific recommendations in the protocol itself (ie recommendation of not using antioxidants - then day 1 and day 5 having a vitamin C IV)
Quote | Reply

### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Mon Aug 24, 2015 01:03 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 24, 2015 4:59 PM LetterRip wrote:

For the protocol listed at,

http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184? "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184? " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184?

Could the recommendation in the protocol be referenced to the literature supporting the recommendation or other reasoning?

The first line of the recommendation contradicts its self (5 days a week vs every day).  So is it every day or 5 on 2 off?

It would be nice to have a reasoning for particular blood tests - some are obvious, others are not.

The overview seems to contradict specific recommendations in the protocol itself (ie recommendation of not using antioxidants - then day 1 and day 5 having a vitamin C IV)
LetterRip, Vitamin C given as an IV is PRO oxidant, not antioxidant. This is how it helps the destruction of weakened cancer cells.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 24, 2015 01:19 PM
Quote | ReplyThe new poster appears to be very knowledgable about CCRC and could offer us valuable insights.

From what I understand and have posted CCRC might not be that rare.

Kidney cancer is not a rare cancer. Ranked #9 by type.

http://seer.cancer.gov/statfacts/html/kidrp.html

Renal cell cancer comprises most of kidney cancer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renal\_cell\_carcinoma

Clear cell is the most common type of renal cell cancer.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1612043-overview#a2

For many people a major hurdle to 3-BP treatment would be cost. Having a low cost entry into 3-BP with a fair chance of success based even on a theoretical argument as proposed in the article could be enough for some CCRC patients to give it a try.

For many going to an official medical clinic and even receiving one dose to test for response could make all the difference. As I have repeatedly noted with 3-BP, those patients with the right tumor characteristics going in can have large anti-tumor responses from the first treatment. These CCRC patients might be such patients.

Considering the cell characteristics of CCRC reported in vitro in the article, responses would not be unexpected. We can run this one by D, though even Chinese grade 3-BP used orally might indicate whether a CCRC patient would respond to treatment.

Apparently some of the unofficial German clinics are offering pay as you go 3-BP treatment.

One of the main problems with science is that there does not appear to be much of a marketing department. I read this CCRC article months ago and it just floated by me. We need to make some noise about this so that others can give it some thought.

At this stage we are not making any definite claims at all. It is simply a question of pointing out to people that given some research in cells with actual primary cell lines from CCRC there is a very interesting suggestion that 3-BP could be effective for such patients.

This should cause people in the CCRC community to take note. It was claimed in the liver cancer patient report, that 3-BP was the most cytotoxic chemical ever tested. If CCRC patients have some special cellular in their tumors, it is possible that 3-BP could work very well for them.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by LetterRip on Mon Aug 24, 2015 01:23 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 24, 2015 5:03 PM Moonlitnight wrote:

On Aug 24, 2015 4:59 PM LetterRip wrote:

For the protocol listed at,

http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184? "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184? " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184?  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184? "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184? " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184?  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184? "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184? " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184?  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184? "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184? " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184?  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" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184? "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184? " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184?  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184? "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184? " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184?  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184? "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184? " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184?  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184? "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184? " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184?  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184? "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184? " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184?  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184? "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184? " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184?  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184? "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184? " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184?

Could the recommendation in the protocol be referenced to the literature supporting the recommendation or other reasoning?

The first line of the recommendation contradicts its self (5 days a week vs every day).  So is it every day or 5 on 2 off?

It would be nice to have a reasoning for particular blood tests - some are obvious, others are not.

The overview seems to contradict specific recommendations in the protocol itself (ie recommendation of not using antioxidants - then day 1 and day 5 having a vitamin C IV)
LetterRip, Vitamin C given as an IV is PRO oxidant, not antioxidant. This is how it helps the destruction of weakened cancer cells.
It has both proxidant and antioxidant effects at high doses, other effects as well.

<quote>Vitamin C not only possesses antioxidant activity, but also can generate cytotoxic activity at higher concentrations [8–10]. It has also been suggested that vitamin C may promote oxidative metabolism by inhibiting the utilization of pyruvate for anaerobic glycolysis [11]. Vitamin C in high concentrations inhibits prostaglandins of the 2-series (arachidonic acid derived), which have been correlated with inflammation and increased cell proliferation [12]. A growth inhibitory action has been reported for vitamin C or its derivatives in at least seven types of tumor cells [13–19]. This inhibitory activity was not observed in normal fibroblasts [13–18], while other researchers have reported a fibroblast inhibition [19–23]. Nevertheless, all reports concur that this cytotoxic effect produced by vitamin C in an array of cell lines (mostly malignant) has been associated with its pro-oxidant activity [8, 24–30]. Vitamin C and its radical potentiate the activation of transcription factor NF-kappa B, which has been associated with inhibition of cell growth [31].</quote>

http://www.springer.com/us/book/9781493918898
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Mon Aug 24, 2015 01:23 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 24, 2015 4:59 PM LetterRip wrote:

For the protocol listed at,

http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184? "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184? " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184?

Could the recommendation in the protocol be referenced to the literature supporting the recommendation or other reasoning?

The first line of the recommendation contradicts its self (5 days a week vs every day).  So is it every day or 5 on 2 off?

It would be nice to have a reasoning for particular blood tests - some are obvious, others are not.

The overview seems to contradict specific recommendations in the protocol itself (ie recommendation of not using antioxidants - then day 1 and day 5 having a vitamin C IV)
Dear LetterRip, could you please post the specific questions on the protocol page? That will help the other readers who will not find my answer here on Cancer Compass. Thanks.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 24, 2015 01:25 PM
Quote | ReplyWelcome new poster!

This protocol might now need to be reconsidered in light of the new research about CCRC.

Those with "responsive" CCRC to 3-BP might need no cotreatments for a response. This however is at this time not entirely clear. The research did find that some CCRC was "nonresponsive" to 3-BP so this type might require those extra cotreatments.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 24, 2015 01:55 PM
Quote | ReplyFor any CCRC patients now on the thread I want to give an easy to understand update on how this latest research might help you.

1. Cancer cells that had few if any mitochondria would by definition need to rely almost exclusively on glycolysis, a primitive energy pathway. 3-BP's mechanism of action involves shutting down glycolysis.

2. Cancer cells with upregulated MCT-1 would be vulnerable to 3-BP treatment. MCT-1 is the main doorway for 3-BP into  cancer cells.

The above article found that some CCRC primary cell lines had both of these qualities. If these cell qualities carried over into actual CCRC patients, then 3-BP treatment might be effective for them.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Mon Aug 24, 2015 02:14 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 24, 2015 5:25 PM Jcancom wrote:

Welcome new poster!

This protocol might now need to be reconsidered in light of the new research about CCRC.

Those with "responsive" CCRC to 3-BP might need no cotreatments for a response. This however is at this time not entirely clear. The research did find that some CCRC was "nonresponsive" to 3-BP so this type might require those extra cotreatments.
Dear J, I think you are making misleading statements:

1. Please explain why a cell with no mito would need MCT1 and lactate?

2. What you would reconsider from the protocol and why?

I agree the article is interesting. This is why it was on the reference list in my blog as you could see that. But I think you are concluding too fast.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Mon Aug 24, 2015 02:20 PM
Quote | ReplyAlso, dont forget that the tumors growing while under 3BP treatment were highly glycolitic (ref. dr. J Williams).
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 24, 2015 02:45 PM
Quote | ReplyIn the article, "Primary clear cell renal carcinoma cells display minimal mitochondrial respiratory capacity resulting in pronounced sensitivity to glycolytic inhibition by 3-Bromopyruvate" it is noted that several primary clear cell renal carcinoma cell lines had a near absence of mitochondria. They do not appear to be joking in the title with "pronounced sensitivity to glycolytic inhibition".

From comments in Figure 2: "Note the large amount of lipid droplets (L) and glycogen deposits (\*) in the cytoplasm, and also the apparent absence of mitochondria." "apparent absence of mitochondria"? Are they kidding? This would mean these cells are entirely dependent on glycolysis!

"The low mitochondrial respiratory rate of primary ccRCC cells was further illustrated by treatment with As2O3, which inhibits mitochondrial respiration. As2O3had negligible effect on primary ccRCC cells, while normal primary kidney epithelial cells did not tolerate this treatment"

"...Together, these results confirm that ccRCC cells do not rely on oxidative phosphorylation for ATP production, instead indicating a critical role for glycolysis in their energy metabolism."

OK, no mitochondria and almost exclusive reliance on glycolysis. Sounds ideal for 3-BP.

How about MCT-1 expression?

"Indeed, quantification of the relative expression levels of SLC16A1 mRNA in these different cell types confirmed a pattern where primary normal cells displayed low expression levels of SLC16A1, whereas both the primary ccRCC cells and the established cell lines expressed increased levels of this transporter" CCRC cells also express high levels of MCT-1.

This should result in the perfect 3-BP treatment environment: extremely glycolytic along with high 3-BP entry through MCT-1.

Is this not correct? I think it is well worthwhile for this thread to give this some consideration. I would be pleased to know if there is something that I have misinterpreted.

A cell with no mitochondrion would not need MCT1 or lactate for a 3-BP response.

If all of this stands scrutiny, then perhaps the protocol should make special reference to CCRC. Given the cellular qualities noted in some of these primary cell lines, there might be a sub-group of CCRC patients that might need no co-treatments in order to obtain a response. They would seem to be ideal patients for 3-BP. Many other patients might require several co-treatments to potentiate a 3-BP response. CCRC patients might typically be natural responders.

{In supplementary Table 1, the IC50 of 3-BP treatment for the primary CCRC cell lines are between 50 and 90 microM. What are the IC50 for other cell lines?}

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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 24, 2015 02:53 PM
Quote | ReplySome cancer cells might be highly glycolytic, though would have a fall back with present mitochondria. However, the article noted that the CCRC cell lines they studied had a near absence of mitochondria!!! This could be a critical weakness of these cells.

Such cells would not have any fall back position. If glycolysis were removed, they would have NO energy source!  This should be devastating for the cancer cells. Typically cancer cells are so heterogeneous that one approach is unlikely to induce a lasting response. This might be true with CCRC. However, it seems that for some CCRC patients it would be very worthwhile to try 3-BP.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by jetsparkle on Mon Aug 24, 2015 03:08 PM
Quote | ReplyPardon me for being a bit off-topic, but just read that drugmaker, Medivation, is acquiring a late-stage breast cancer drug candidate from a company called BioMarin. The price?  Well, the deal could eventually be $570 million dollars.

The drug's name is Talazoparib--and seems to be focusing on late-stage, metastic breast cancer and the BRCA gene. In a phase 3 trial right now.

I do not know if 3-BP applies to any of this--again, PET scans would indicate such individually.  But one truly wonders how much money this new drug will make for Big Pharma, what are its side effects, and what exactly will it accomplish percentage wise for those with this type of cancer?

And 3-BP is so relatively inexpensive and within most people's capability to afford.  It saddens me when I know so many are desperately ill and then, when using "conventional drugs"--so to speak--become even more stressed financially.

We live in a very upside-down world.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by peggyznd on Mon Aug 24, 2015 03:25 PM
Quote | ReplyRe the issue of Medivation and its purchase Talazoparib for late stage meta Breast Cancer with the BRCA gene, currently in trial.  That is a huge financial gamble, as very few BC are BRCA types, and even then there are women with BRCA genes who have other genes which make them less likely to get BC than others with that same gene.  Tiny population, tinier yet when well characterized, and may or may not work well enough to meet FDA standards.  Would you invest your money on that kind of drug?

Next, the 3-BP and its potential value could not be applicable at all, unless that which 3-BP can react with in a good way is also found in the BC group as above.  And none of this would be shown in a PET scan, which really gives limited information, none of which will indicate whether that or any drug will be effective.

If 3-BP is effective, even in a small group as above, there will certainly be some company who cannot afford to risk $570Million for a small group of cancer patients, but might well be willing to do so for this 3-BP.  Why hasn't it been done?  Is there enough information to make it a sensible business plan?  Where is the data that supports the value of this in treating patients--not just mice or cell in a dish.

All of this requires endless and verifiable steps along the way.  I would also not want to discuss 'conventional drugs' as if there were such things--there are too many of too many different types, with endless mechanisms of actions.  It is a hugely complex thing to hope that any one drug will fix what happens to be a huge number of cancers, all of which are slightly different in each individual.

No easy answers, and no magic bullets, just long and hard work for everyone.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 24, 2015 03:33 PM
Quote | Reply3-BP has serious patent problems.

3-Bromopyruvate can be bought online cheaply. The pharmaceutical companies appear to have resigned to the fact that there is no path to market for such a drug.

As an analog of pyruvic acid, 3-BP needs to be fairly simple. Many other pyruvic acid analogs also have anti-cancer effects. MD Anderson has developed a version of 3-BP which they call 3-BrOP which is just 3-BP with 3 more carbons. It has also shown impressive pre-clinical results, though it too appears to have certain patent issues.

3-BP has been lingering in obscurity for 15 years now after the first ground breaking research was done. Several clinics could wait no longer for the clinical trials and are now treating with it.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by peggyznd on Mon Aug 24, 2015 03:37 PM
Quote | ReplyWhich clinics are treating with this, in what diseases and with what responses.  Have they compounded the version they use for treatment, and is it an approved agent for any other usage, more likely to be used "off-label"?

Having dealt with kidney cancer issues for nearly 11 years, I am painfully aware of much research which sounds quite promising in the lab, but cannot be 'translated' into meaningful help for the real patient.  Love to learn more.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Mon Aug 24, 2015 03:39 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 24, 2015 6:45 PM Jcancom wrote:

In the article, "Primary clear cell renal carcinoma cells display minimal mitochondrial respiratory capacity resulting in pronounced sensitivity to glycolytic inhibition by 3-Bromopyruvate" it is noted that several primary clear cell renal carcinoma cell lines had a near absence of mitochondria. They do not appear to be joking in the title with "pronounced sensitivity to glycolytic inhibition".

From comments in Figure 2: "Note the large amount of lipid droplets (L) and glycogen deposits (\*) in the cytoplasm, and also the apparent absence of mitochondria." "apparent absence of mitochondria"? Are they kidding? This would mean these cells are entirely dependent on glycolysis!

"The low mitochondrial respiratory rate of primary ccRCC cells was further illustrated by treatment with As2O3, which inhibits mitochondrial respiration. As2O3had negligible effect on primary ccRCC cells, while normal primary kidney epithelial cells did not tolerate this treatment"

"...Together, these results confirm that ccRCC cells do not rely on oxidative phosphorylation for ATP production, instead indicating a critical role for glycolysis in their energy metabolism."

OK, no mitochondria and almost exclusive reliance on glycolysis. Sounds ideal for 3-BP.

How about MCT-1 expression?

"Indeed, quantification of the relative expression levels of SLC16A1 mRNA in these different cell types confirmed a pattern where primary normal cells displayed low expression levels of SLC16A1, whereas both the primary ccRCC cells and the established cell lines expressed increased levels of this transporter" CCRC cells also express high levels of MCT-1.

This should result in the perfect 3-BP treatment environment: extremely glycolytic along with high 3-BP entry through MCT-1.

Is this not correct? I think it is well worthwhile for this thread to give this some consideration. I would be pleased to know if there is something that I have misinterpreted.

A cell with no mitochondrion would not need MCT1 or lactate for a 3-BP response.

If all of this stands scrutiny, then perhaps the protocol should make special reference to CCRC. Given the cellular qualities noted in some of these primary cell lines, there might be a sub-group of CCRC patients that might need no co-treatments in order to obtain a response. They would seem to be ideal patients for 3-BP. Many other patients might require several co-treatments to potentiate a 3-BP response. CCRC patients might typically be natural responders.

{In supplementary Table 1, the IC50 of 3-BP treatment for the primary CCRC cell lines are between 50 and 90 microM. What are the IC50 for other cell lines?}

J,

1. dont generalize "no mitochondria" since this si not what the article says

2.   if it is absent, I expect there is no MCT1 and there is no sensitivity to 3BP. As you can see in Fig 6c, not all ccRCC cells have MCT1 and as you can see in Fig. 5b not all the ccRCC cells are killed - there is a saturation point stopping at 20% viability. Now lets imagine that is going to proliferate. What would you do about it?

3. I do not understand your statement "A cell with no mitochondrion would not need MCT1 or lactate for a 3-BP response" So you are saying taht there is no need for MCT1 to have a response to 3BP? IF yes, that is new to me.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 24, 2015 03:43 PM
Quote | Reply3-BP just might be that magic bullet. Targeting cancer's metabolism could pose an unresistable chanllenge. Cancer cells need energy. Removing their energy can have almost immediate consequences.

These are the "official" patients that we are aware. Of note, both of the published patients had truly massive anti-tumor responses.

http://3bromopyruvate.wikia.com/wiki/3%282%29\_Human\_Patient\_
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Mon Aug 24, 2015 03:48 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 24, 2015 7:37 PM peggyznd wrote:

Which clinics are treating with this, in what diseases and with what responses.  Have they compounded the version they use for treatment, and is it an approved agent for any other usage, more likely to be used "off-label"?

Having dealt with kidney cancer issues for nearly 11 years, I am painfully aware of much research which sounds quite promising in the lab, but cannot be 'translated' into meaningful help for the real patient.  Love to learn more.
And there are some more including some treatment protocols here http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=47
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 24, 2015 03:57 PM
Quote | ReplyYes, this is true the article did not say no mitochondria. The article used the phrase "the apparent absence of mitochondria" I am sure whether a cell could even be viable if there were truly no mitochondria.

It is also true about there being a percentage of apparently resistent cells of about 20%. It would not be entirely clear what would be done with these cells. These might be the few cells with actually functioning mitochondria. For many patients with CCRC without other treatment lines they would probably be willing to receive 3-BP treatment and go from there.

"A cell with no mitochondrion would not need MCT1 or lactate for a 3-BP response." Yes, I am not sure what I meant by that either. Can anyone help me out? What did I mean by that? The best that I can make out I was thinking that a cell without no mitochondrion would not need MCT1 or lactate because I thought perhaps such a cell simply would not be viable.  I am very unclear whether such cells could even exist.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Caddy on Mon Aug 24, 2015 04:05 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 24, 2015 7:43 PM Jcancom wrote:

3-BP just might be that magic bullet. Targeting cancer's metabolism could pose an unresistable chanllenge. Cancer cells need energy. Removing their energy can have almost immediate consequences.

These are the "official" patients that we are aware. Of note, both of the published patients had truly massive anti-tumor responses.

http://3bromopyruvate.wikia.com/wiki/3%282%29\_Human\_Patient\_ Reports"" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://3bromopyruvate.wikia.com/wiki/3%282%29\_Human\_Patient\_  target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://3bromopyruvate.wikia.com/wiki/3%282%29\_Human\_Patient\_
J,

Danielus is right, I'm afraid. You're giving selective information. The number of patients you list in the wikia is a tiny, tiny number. You also don't mention that patients that didn't respond, and I posted earlier that in the German clinic a number of patients sadly died. We've also heard of patients who responded well initially, only for their tumours to become more aggressive further down the line. That's why we can't take immediate response as much of a clue.

A more balanced view sees 3BP, not as a magic bullet, but as a compound that can offer promise to a set of patients (not yet identified), but one that needs much more work on it, and MUCH more data (which is why I keep asking for a simple form of basic data gathering from those who we know are administering it).

Now that we seem to be getting renal cancer patients visiting this thread, I think we have a duty to exercise discretion in any claims - but particularly those based upon a single article, highlighting an in vitro study .

We'd all love for there to be a simple solution to even a handful of cancers. But there isn't.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Mon Aug 24, 2015 04:09 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 24, 2015 7:57 PM Jcancom wrote:

Yes, this is true the article did not say no mitochondria. The article used the phrase "the apparent absence of mitochondria" I am sure whether a cell could even be viable if there were truly no mitochondria.

It is also true about there being a percentage of apparently resistent cells of about 20%. It would not be entirely clear what would be done with these cells. These might be the few cells with actually functioning mitochondria. For many patients with CCRC without other treatment lines they would probably be willing to receive 3-BP treatment and go from there.

"A cell with no mitochondrion would not need MCT1 or lactate for a 3-BP response." Yes, I am not sure what I meant by that either. Can anyone help me out? What did I mean by that? The best that I can make out I was thinking that a cell without no mitochondrion would not need MCT1 or lactate because I thought perhaps such a cell simply would not be viable.  I am very unclear whether such cells could even exist.
Ok, so now that you agree that based on the same article you are citing there is a population that may not be sensitive to 3BP, I want to go back to your statement regarding the protocol and reducing that for this cancer type. So far I am not convinced.

Part of that protocol is meant to make those 20% cells sensitive as well to 3BP and if not, inhibit angiogenesis so they do not grow and if not address other possibilities and so on ...

The point is that in reality, cancer cells (specifically when tumours are advanced) have demonstrated capability to grow back and that is because usually it has multiple types of population. You kill some, and others maybe more aggressive (or maybe not) can grow. This is why you need to address tumours from multiple directions even if we hope one bullet may be enough ... lets have more instead of to little guns as long as they are non-or little-toxic.
Quote | Reply

### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 24, 2015 04:17 PM
Quote | ReplyFor those new to the thread, it might be helpful to note that symptomatic benefits from 3-BP treatment can can occur almost immediately.

The liver patient that we refer to frequently on this thread felt somewhat better immediately after his first treatment, even though he was considered to have extremely serious illness. The melanoma patient also had a quick symptomatic response after his first treatment.

The liver patient also experienced a near fatal TLS response after his third treatment due to an extreme amount of destruction of his cancer cells. The melanoma patient's LDH fell from about 1800 to 12 after 2 combination 3-BP treatments. So, 3-BP can result in very rapid responses.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4110469/
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 24, 2015 04:31 PM
Quote | ReplyMy idea was to engage the thread in a discussion on this exciting research of 3-BP in CCRC patients/

I thought this article might offer us a unique population of patients with a highly predictable pattern of response. It is of course not entirely unexpected that some cancer cells would be non-responders, though a next line could be developed for such cells.

It still seems reasonable to branch the protocol according to CCRC status. These patients would have a truly unique pattern of response. In fact, many CCRC patients would be expected to have a response to 3-BP given the in vitro research. This would place them in their own category in any protocol.

Typical cancer patients would not be expected to have an unaided response to 3-BP. It is still only speculation, though this modification might at some point, with further evidence be added into the protocol. It is possible that the resistent CCRC cells might display some unique behaviors not shared by other resistent 3-BP treated cancer cells.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 24, 2015 04:47 PM
Quote | ReplyWhen I visited the liver and pancreatic cancer threads there was this extreme level of hopelessness. Many of the patients at some point simply give up. They are all aware that survival approaches 0%. This is possibly why the FDA designated (though did not approve) orphan status for 3-BP in pancreatic and liver and bile duct cancers.

There might have been a good reason why the FDA did not also designate renal cell carcinoma as an orphan. I am not sure. The new posters from the renal threads can jump in if they would like to comment on this.

I am not entirely sure whether renal cell patients are also 0%ers. Many of them seem upbeat. Sutent seems to offer least some sense of hope for them. 3-BP might be thought of as the final line of treatment available to patients. Those who are expecting completed phase 3 studies would be disappointed.

However, for those CCRC patients who have entered the hopelessness stage, 3-BP would seem at least a reasonable consideration given this new quoted research. It might not be the ultimate cure, though for CCRC patients it might reset the clock for those who were simply waiting for the end.

These patients might be very grateful to 3-BP if it could at least do that for them.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Mon Aug 24, 2015 04:55 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 24, 2015 8:47 PM Jcancom wrote:

When I visited the liver and pancreatic cancer threads there was this extreme level of hopelessness. Many of the patients at some point simply give up. They are all aware that survival approaches 0%. This is possibly why the FDA designated (though did not approve) orphan status for 3-BP in pancreatic and liver and bile duct cancers.

There might have been a good reason why the FDA did not also designate renal cell carcinoma as an orphan. I am not sure. The new posters from the renal threads can jump in if they would like to comment on this.

I am not entirely sure whether renal cell patients are also 0%ers. Many of them seem upbeat. Sutent seems to offer least some sense of hope for them. 3-BP might be thought of as the final line of treatment available to patients. Those who are expecting completed phase 3 studies would be disappointed.

However, for those CCRC patients who have entered the hopelessness stage, 3-BP would seem at least a reasonable consideration given this new quoted research. It might not be the ultimate cure, though for CCRC patients it might reset the clock for those who were simply waiting for the end.

These patients might be very grateful to 3-BP if it could at least do that for them.
"However, for those CCRC patients who have entered the hopelessness stage, 3-BP would seem at least a reasonable consideration given this new quoted research. It might not be the ultimate cure, though for CCRC patients it might reset the clock for those who were simply waiting for the end.

These patients might be very grateful to 3-BP if it could at least do that for them."

I agree - my point was that in order to aim for CR you need to attack from multiple angles (if that is accessible, why not?). Even that is no certainty, but it gives a good chance.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 24, 2015 05:06 PM
Quote | ReplyMy whole suggestion is based on the idea that this research is hinting that CCRC are probably a whole different class of patients.

It it true that they might ultimately need various cotreatments for a maximal response, though there would be value for a protocol to create awareness that CCRC might be a special category in 3-BP treatment. There might be other such special categories of patients.

The noted research suggests that it would not be surprising if a substantial proportion of these patients respond to 3-BP. It would seem reasonable to expect that CCRC patients could have one of the highest unaided response rate to 3-BP of any of the common forms of cancer.

As I mentioned initially, if this were proven to be true, 3-BP would have launched as a treatment for at least a sub-group of patients. Up till now no clearly identifiable patient group had been found that would be expected to have consistent responses to 3-BP. If CCRC were to be such a sub-group, everything changes.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Mon Aug 24, 2015 06:02 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 24, 2015 7:25 PM peggyznd wrote:

Re the issue of Medivation and its purchase Talazoparib for late stage meta Breast Cancer with the BRCA gene, currently in trial.  That is a huge financial gamble, as very few BC are BRCA types, and even then there are women with BRCA genes who have other genes which make them less likely to get BC than others with that same gene.  Tiny population, tinier yet when well characterized, and may or may not work well enough to meet FDA standards.  Would you invest your money on that kind of drug?

Next, the 3-BP and its potential value could not be applicable at all, unless that which 3-BP can react with in a good way is also found in the BC group as above.  And none of this would be shown in a PET scan, which really gives limited information, none of which will indicate whether that or any drug will be effective.

If 3-BP is effective, even in a small group as above, there will certainly be some company who cannot afford to risk $570Million for a small group of cancer patients, but might well be willing to do so for this 3-BP.  Why hasn't it been done?  Is there enough information to make it a sensible business plan?  Where is the data that supports the value of this in treating patients--not just mice or cell in a dish.

All of this requires endless and verifiable steps along the way.  I would also not want to discuss 'conventional drugs' as if there were such things--there are too many of too many different types, with endless mechanisms of actions.  It is a hugely complex thing to hope that any one drug will fix what happens to be a huge number of cancers, all of which are slightly different in each individual.

No easy answers, and no magic bullets, just long and hard work for everyone.
Peqqyznd, too  many discussions with J and I haven’t seen your post. Almost missed thsi but a friend pointed out your valuable comment.

Regarding 3BP there is a business plan and there are two companies who claim various 3BP formulations. But I think they also fight legally and this is what slows down the developments.

To my knowledge, at this moment Dr. Ko is working on producing the data and this time not in mice but in humans. From what I read somewhere, they treated about 100 patients and I think i saw a claim of 90% responding and being alive today. If you go deeper in my blog you will find the link somewhere :)

Her secret protocol is more complex than just simply 3BP and that includes Vit C and others that I also suggested in the protocol on my blog.

I think, one day there will be a magic bullet as well. But for now, like you said, it is hard work and that applies to 3BP as well. Yet, based on the info we have today 3BP can be a solution for many cancers that are not responding to conventional treatments. And that is not only theory but it has been shown already in humans as effective, and this is what is special about this one.

Finally, Welcome! Your comments are very balanced and constructive and you will clearly add value to this thread if you are going to continuee adding comments.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 24, 2015 06:04 PM
Quote | ReplyHere's a few more typos from the Protocol.

-Day 5: if not then (than) next step

-administer(administrate) paracetamol

-red meat should be avoided as it () is an (a) important
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by peggyznd on Mon Aug 24, 2015 06:06 PM
Quote | ReplyI am apparently the only RCC patient in this thread at this moment, and think that the reason that RCC was not includesd is that we have mix of drugs, all with some hope of efficacy for some percentage of patients.  However, there is no neat way for any doc or patient to know exactly which of the drugs might be best against his cancer.  They can be sure, however, that if there is some benefit with most of them, that benefit is likely not to be long-lasting.

That being said, I am an eleven year survivor of metastatic kidney cancer, clear cell (most common variety) and responded well and durably to an immune booster, high dose iterleukin2, which sets the immune system into gear to destroy the cancer--and remember how to do it for a long period.  Approved by athe FDA in 1992, many doctors still will not consider it for their patients, generally due to the thinking that this is not effective enough, that the regimen is too difficult, that it must be given in hospitals whose staff is trained to do this, and because it is "old".  Doctors like new stuff, too, and the recent anti-angiogenesis and mTOR inhibiting drugs are new.  Not necessarily better, but easier to give, and while they may work for a small percentage of patients, those patients must continue on the drugs until they are no longer effective, or the meds become intolerable.

I just read the history of the single melanoma patient treated in Egypt, and cannot say that this is a very positive example.  First of all, the man was not even scanned to find if the cancer was metastatics until months after his first surgery, which clearly indicated it was melanoma.  His subsequent treatment did not include any of the more recent melanoma therapies, one of which is HD IL2, approved in 1998.  The poor man was given all sorts of medications and infusions which sound more palliative than anything.  THe measure used to determine if the cancer was regressing was HDL, but that measure could have been affected by any of the other drugs, and may or may not be indicative of cancer response.  Within months of getting this treatment, the man, deathly ill, died.  They state is was not due to the cancer, but the facts indicate that his lung was destroyed by the melanoma and it was pressing on his heart.  THe measurement of HDL seems likely to be surrogate measure of something else, or was not indicative of the melanoma regressing.

Wish it were easier, but it is not.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by peggyznd on Mon Aug 24, 2015 06:08 PM
Quote | ReplyDanielus and others, I write a kidney cancer blog at www.peggyRCC.com  which can bring you up to speed on the basics of kidney cancer, which is really in a remarkable period of change.  I would like to read your blog, Danielus, so please forward that info to me at my email peggyzuckerman@gmail.com
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 24, 2015 06:17 PM
Quote | ReplyBelow is the initial case report for 3-BP. On the thread this patient is referred to as the liver patient. His response to 3-BP was overwhelming.

After his third 3-BP treatment he had a nearly fatal TLS response due to a simply overwhelming amount of cancer destruction. This patient ultimately died, though surprisingly not from cancer. In fact at the time of death no live cancer cells were recovered from his ascites. Instead it was determined that his liver overloaded. The authors commented in the article that to their knowledge 3-BP is the most cytotoxic chemical ever used.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=A+translational+study+%E2%80%9Ccase+report%E2%80%9D+on+the+small+molecule+%E2%80%9Cenergy+blocker%E2%80%9D+3-bromopyruvate+%283BP%29+as+a+potent+anticancer+agent%3A+from+bench+side+to+bedside

The impressive part of the melanoma patient's report was the temporal relationship between 3-BP treatment and LDH response. This is clearly seen in Figure 3. After only 2 combination doses of 3-BP and paracetamol his LDH collapsed. His doctors in the article considered this to be an indication that he had achieved a metabolic cure.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4110469/figure/c
Quote | Reply

### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 24, 2015 07:25 PM
Quote | ReplyFrom the PeggyRCC.com  blog:

"That led us to a classification that about 50% of the patients with clear-cell renal cell carcinoma will have PBRM1 (**Protein polybromo-1)** deficient tumors and 15% of patients will have BAP1 (BRCA1 associated protein-1 (ubiquitin carboxy-terminal hydrolase)deficient tumors. A small percentage of patients will have tumors that are deficient for both genes."

It would be truly amazing if there some sort of translation between the above genotypes of clear-cell renal cell carcinoma and metabolism. The research seems to have found that often underneath cancer genetics there is a metabolic rationale. If patients with CCRC do start trying 3-BP, then it would be interesting to see whether these different genotypes had different response rates. It would be very helpful if there were a clearly defined subgroup of patients who might have an especially good response to 3-BP.

Apparently one does not need to look that far to see a possible connection between PBRM1 and metabolism.

"This locus encodes a subunit of ATP-dependent chromatin-remodeling complexes. The encoded protein has been identified as in integral component of complexes necessary for ligand-dependent transcriptional activation by nuclear hormone receptors. Mutations at this locus have been associated with primary clear cell renal cell carcinoma."

Or consider VHL another important CCRC gene in its relation to oxygen:

"This protein is involved in the ubiquitination and degradation of hypoxia-inducible-factor (HIF), which is a transcription factor that plays a central role in the regulation of gene expression by oxygen."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/7428

I wonder what would happen to the oxygen distribution in the tumor environment if 3-BP resulted in large scale tumor destruction in CCRC. In an earlier report, one concern was that large tumors might prevent 3-BP from being effective. Also the question of aggressive tumor rebound after 3-BP treatment. I wonder how this might change in CCRC if most (though perhaps not all) of the tumor were destroyed with 3-BP treatment. That is, would this be enough to reoxygenate the tumors?
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by peggyznd on Mon Aug 24, 2015 09:40 PM
Quote | ReplyThe quote from my blog comes from a lecture about the types of clear cell renal cell carcinoma, which can be differentiated by an analysis of the over- and under-expression of PBRM- and BAP1 in tumors.  As far as I know this applies only to RCC, and may or may not have any relevance to CRC.

There are certainly those who think that RCC or some of its subtypes is driven by shifts in metabolism.  None of that necessarily ties it to any reactions to 3-BP.  Since there are atleast 10 types of RCC, each may respond differently to any one treatment. Even the very smallest ones, typically removed surgically and often not monitored, can be more aggressive that a very similar small tumor.  One must ask if these two are the same disease, or similar diseases that land in thee same organ.

Since the goal of every cell is to grow and divide, there will always be energy needs for each cell.  Thus, I do not see a specific link between PBRM1 and metabolism--again which occurs in all parts of the body.

"Or consider VHL another important CCRC gene in its relation to oxygen:"  and what follows re HIF.  Are you referring to RCC or CRC?  The expression level both of HIF alpha and HIF beta are involved in tumor growth, but there is not general agreement on what that interaction is.

It is too easy to jump to conclusions on the basis of some data which is not necessarily linked to other data, as all of this is clearly very complex, with near-instant shifts in the production of signal, enzymes and shifts along the cell pathways into the nucleus, giving the order or not as to the next division of the cancer cell.

Lots more science is needed here, as the speculation is not helpful in understanding all of this.

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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:00 PM
Quote | ReplyOne point of note with kidney cancer is that the survival statistics are actually quite favorable.

For example, 64.5% of patient are diagnosed at the local stage which has a 92.1% 5 year relative survival rate, a further 16% are diagnosed at the regional stage which has a 65.4% 5 year survival. Overall 5 year survival is a remarkable 73%.

http://seer.cancer.gov/statfacts/html/kidrp.html

This is highly relevant in the context of suggesting such patients might consider 3-BP, as for many of these patients such a suggestion would not be appropriate. 3-BP is a medication that has not as of yet even started a clinical trial.  The typical kidney cancer patient would be well advised to stay within the context of rigorously validated science based medicine.

Even still there are expected to be over 61,000 new cases of kidney cancer in America in 2015, and over 14,000 deaths. The patients that might be especially interested in considering 3-BP would be more in the distant metastatic stage.

It is interesting to compare kidney cancer statistics with that of pancreatic cancer. In America in 2015, there are expected to be almsot 49,000 new cases of pancreatic cancer and 40,000 deaths. 5 year survival is 7%. Only 9% of these patients will be diagnosed at a localized stage and they will have a 27% chance of 5 year surviavl, while fully 53% will be diagnosed at a distant stage with a 2.4% chance of 5 year survival.

http://seer.cancer.gov/statfacts/html/pancreas.html

Some pancreatic patients have expressed an interest in trying 3-BP on our thread. For these patients 3-BP does not seem an unreasonable choice.

Given a likely extended survivability staying with highly researched, clinically proven medicines is the rational choice, while given a likely brief survivability trying less researched medicines could be a rational choice.

The irony, of course, is that the sub-group of patients with  possibly the best liklihood of responding to 3-BP (that is, clear cell renal carcinoma) will be the most difficult to reach because there are so many such patients who do quite well with conventional treatment. Yet, at some point some of these patients might also need non-conventional treatment options and it might not be easy to reach out to them when they need such options.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:59 PM
Quote | ReplyYes, I agree that such speculations are typically not very helpful. I was only trying to suggest that there might be identifiable (genetic or otherwise) sub-groups of CCRC patients that might respond even better than would be expected of CCRC as a group to 3-BP and that this might possibly be driven by genes in metabolic pathways.

One of the great problems with 3-BP is that so much of such foundational clinical research has not been conducted. It might never be. Part of the purpose of this thread is to help readers consider these different perspectives and perhaps motivate them to pursue some of these ideas further.

This thinking was inspired by the below url that considers the metabolic interpretation of cancer. There were some surprising genetic associations found in this article between metabolism and cancer (e.g. the BRCA1 gene).

http://robbwolf.com/2013/09/19/origin-cancer/

It would be important for those with CCRC who might be interested in 3-BP to be aware of the different genetic mutations that might be present in their tumors and how they might relate to treatment outcome.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:28 PM
Quote | ReplySteerable nanoparticles? OK. Would love to see how this might work with nanocells.

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/150818/ncomms9009/full/nco
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by LetterRip on Tue Aug 25, 2015 01:15 AM
Quote | ReplyAdditional comments on the suggested protocol.  (I've posted them in the comments at the site, but figured they might be of interest here as well).

IV hydrogen peroxide I'd be concerned with damage to red blood cells leading to hypoxia.

"Documents from the board indicate that the case involved a woman he treated who had nearly died from a precipitous drop in hemoglobin caused by intravenous infusions of ozone and hydrogen peroxide, which destroyed many of her red blood cells."

http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/pittman.html

Mention of B17 makes me rather questioning- laetrile/amygdilin/B17 is generally viewed to have no anticancer activity, what is the evidence suggesting it should be a part of the protocol?

"Laetrile has shown little anticancer activity in animal studies and no anticancer activity in human clinical trials.

The side effects associated with laetrile toxicity mirror the symptoms of cyanide poisoning, including liver damage, difficulty walking (caused by damaged nerves), fever, coma, and death."

http://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/cam/hp/laetrile

Agreed that artensuate does seem reasonable to include in the protocol based on research into its action via anti VEGF

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11251172

Curcumin also acts to inhibit VEGF, so agreed to have it as an alternative to artensuate makes sense.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18596194

For ozone therapy see the comment and concern above regarding hydrogen peroxide and ozone therapy causing RBC damage.

Alpha-lipoic acid is an antioxidant, again this seems to contradict the advice to avoid antioxidants.

https://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement/alphalipoic

Also Sloan Kettering suggests there is no benefit to it in the treatment of cancer,

https://www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/integrative-medicine/herbs

It does damage/apoptosis of liver mitochondria at high doses; is that the intended effect?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24753992
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by LetterRip on Tue Aug 25, 2015 01:37 AM
Quote | ReplySo, my overall impression is that it seems interesting but there are some areas that seem concerning.

1) lots of potential damage to RBCs which would lead to increased hypoxia

2) lots of agents that are toxic to the liver.  At the very least monitoring of liver enzymes should be added to the protocol.  Also significant warnings to those with compromised livers should likely be added.  Possibly the protocol should be reworked to minimize liver stress.

3) various advice seems contradictory (such as the antioxidants)

4) some suggestions have a negative association with discredited theories of cancer (ie B17/laetrile)

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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by peggyznd on Tue Aug 25, 2015 01:40 AM
Quote | Replyone clarification, please.  You use "CCRC", and that does not typically refer to Renal Cell Carcinoma, usually called RCC.  Clear Cell variant is ccRCC, chromophobe RCC is chRCC, so some confusion may arise vs CRC, colo-rectal cancer.

I have yet to see a connection between the 3-BP and how is might work in RCC, or any particular variant of it.  I do think that eventually we will see meds/agents being prescribed more on the basis of the molecular expressions of the various types, again with the subtypes, probably encompassing at least 10 types.  Each is a subtype because each varies so from the other.  What type do you consider would be more likely to have respone from 3-BP.

Without the foundation clinical research which you acknowledge has not yet been done, how can you have any confidence that this is likely to be helpful?  I have read the robbwolf link and really do not see that as a primary resource, and is really more a compilation of ideas and concerns about cancer and what might help. Not good enough to warrant a recommendation for anything other than eating well and caring for oneself, in my opinion.

Re the last paragraph, it is essential that all cancer patients come to understand what mutations have driven their cancers to grow, and how those mutations might be stopped or their immune systems sensitized to counter them.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Caddy on Tue Aug 25, 2015 09:26 AM
Quote | ReplyPaggy and LetterRip,

Your thoughts and comments are very welcome here. Please continue to share. Sometimes this thread needs some healthy scepticism to counterbalance some of the wilder speculations.

The reality is that we have absolutely no influence that could persaude any constituency of cancer patients to try 3BP. I have no science background, so I've got no idea if 3BP (with or without combinations) is particularly appropriate for ccRCC patients.

Some of the comments you've provided seem to support, or originate from, a genomics standpoint. I think it's fair to say that most of the people who've posted so far would align themselves with the metabolic theory of cancer - elegantly expressed in 'Tripping Over The Truth'.

And, thanks to Johns Hopkins researchers, especiallty Prof Pete Pedersen and Young Hee Ko, there's a wealth of evidence (and anecdotal case studies) to support some of the enthusiasm on display.

But that enthusiasm needs to be tempered by realism and a willingness to be closely scrutinised. So, please keep your comments and concerns flowing!
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:05 AM
Quote | ReplyThank you, ccRCC it is then.

The article on ccRCC and 3-BP was a real eye-opener. It would be well worthwhile to read and consider it carefully.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25569102

"...One exception seems to be the clear cell variant of renal cell carcinoma, ccRCC, where the activity of most other pathways than that of glycolysis has been shown to be reduced. This makes ccRCC a promising candidate for the use of glycolytic inhibitors in treatment of the disease."

I was quite startled by this article.

"Electron microscope image from a ccRCC tissue sample. Note the ... apparent absence of mitochondria." It took some time for me to recover from the shock and the complete disbelief. "Apparent absence of mitochondria"?

The  "Apparent absence of mitochondria" could have profound implications for treating ccRCC. With "the apparent absence of mitochondria", ccRCC would be expected to be extremely vulnerable to glycolysis inhibition. This was clearly shown to be true using an in vitro model in the article.

A deficit in mitochondria would not be something that could  be easily restored.

One of the main problems with 3-BP is ensuring that it actually enters the cell. The article noted that ccRCC primary cell lines had upregulated MCT-1 which is the doorway for 3-BP into the cell.

If there were any doubt whether 3-BP, if it were allowed entry to the cell, were the most cytostatic chemical ever found as claimed in the liver patient report  ("The rate of tumor necrosis due to 3BP treatment seems to exceed all known cytostatic drugs."), then one must simply consider the below url for Mito-3-BP. Mito drugs attach a drug to a cation which drags the chemical into the cell and then into the mitochondrion. This article demonstrated the truly overwhelming potential of 3-BP when it actually enters the cell. The below article found that when using this approach effectiveness increased by several logs over straight 3-BP.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25709804

A few posters on this thread have tried 3-BP without success. Such non-responses are not entirely unexpected as a few things need to be in place for a response to occur. The newly developed protocol might help rectify such hindrances.

What seems so special with ccRCC is that these hindrances might typically be absent. Thus, ccRCC appears to offer substantial opportunity to help establish the effectiveness of 3-BP. All of this is of course quite speculative as we are only talking about cells and it is not clear how resistance might manifest.

It will be very interesting to hear experiences from people with ccRCC who were treated with 3-BP. It was especially interesting that the article found that 4 of 5 (80%) of the primary cell lines had significant response to 3-BP. There was no mention in the article about the type of ccRCC cells used. However, it was noted that the only cell line that did not respond "showed an elevated basal OCR and increased maximal respiratory capacity in the Seahorse assay, suggesting retained mitochondrial capacity and less dependence on glycolysis in this specific tumor".

It would seem that a broad range of ccRCC cancers might respond favorably to 3-BP.

The flip side of the absence of foundational clinical research is that there is so much upside opportunity for discovery. In almost any other context, there would be an entire research group of a pharmaceutical company trying ways to improve their product or find the optimal patient population. None of this has been done with 3-BP.

In the melanoma patient article, 2 combined doses of 3-BP and paracetamol had an enormous anti-cancer effect.

"When the GSH depletor paracetamol was used with 3BP, LDH dramatically decreased."

It does not seem unlikely that other such amplifiers could  be found.

Of course, there is also now interest on this thread about the potential of 3-BP in ccRCC.

As I noted before, the composition of the ccRCC patient population will have a significant influence on the perception of 3-BP. Patients with effective conventional options will be largely inclined to adhere rigorously to the scientific method. This obviously is completely appropriate under such circumstances.

However, there is an entire group of end stage patients that conventional medicine ultimately gives up on. When they see admittedly anecdotal reports such as

http://www.dayspringcancerclinic.com/3bp-cases/

they might not be interested in waiting for the final readout on the phase 3 trial. The pancreatic patient reported above is all the more interesting as this was the only pancreatic cancer patient treated by the clinic with 3-BP (that is, no selection given pancreatic cancer).

This giving up on patients likely occurs at the advanced stages of ccRCC as well. There are so many healthy kidney cancer patients that this point can be lost. However, the SEER statistics note that 5 year survival of kidney cancer patients staged as distant is 12%.  These would be the patients that might reasonably be expected to consider trying 3-BP. There are 14,000 such patients in the US each year.

The metabolic url provided was meant as a general orientation to the metabolic perspective. We all have our own language, so it is good to spend time learning each others accents.

This has been a very productive discussion. Alerting others to the possible implications of this research has been  worthwhile. If a substantial proportion of ccRCC patients were helped by this treatment, then this would have substantial implications for the development of 3-BP.

If there are any kidney cancer patients lurking the thread would be very glad to hear from you!

Please Post!
Quote | Reply

### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Tue Aug 25, 2015 03:22 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 25, 2015 5:37 AM LetterRip wrote:

So, my overall impression is that it seems interesting but there are some areas that seem concerning.

1) lots of potential damage to RBCs which would lead to increased hypoxia

2) lots of agents that are toxic to the liver.  At the very least monitoring of liver enzymes should be added to the protocol.  Also significant warnings to those with compromised livers should likely be added.  Possibly the protocol should be reworked to minimize liver stress.

3) various advice seems contradictory (such as the antioxidants)

4) some suggestions have a negative association with discredited theories of cancer (ie B17/laetrile)

LetterRIP, your questions are answered on the blog. Here is a short answer:

1. if done correctly no RBCs damage

2. which agents - if you are reffering to b17 that is the case for oral but not IV

3. those antioxidants are acting as pro oxidants at cellular level

4. important and great univ professors at German clinics are administrating b17 IV - statements on websites are nothing more than oppinions. I even know doctors administrating B17 IV to their family members - facts are leading

Note: I will slow down with comments here since I will better focus on research
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Tue Aug 25, 2015 03:26 PM
Quote | ReplyJ, you could write a book with those long comments :D

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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by peggyznd on Tue Aug 25, 2015 03:38 PM
Quote | ReplyJcancom, Re the stats for RCC.  It is true that finding kidney cancer at an early is a good thing, leading to better survival.  However, most stats indicate that metastatic kidney cancer has about a 10% survival rate at 5 years.  Tricky, as that metastatic patient may well have been diagnosesd five years sooner, is often not followed properly or not at all (!) after five years, so can go quickly into a disastrous metastatic stage with the grim survival stats.

Just for a sense of how dangerous this can be, a 7cm tumor (2 3/4") is still considered a 'small' tumor.  Some took years to get to that size, and others in a much shorter time period.  Are these the same cancers which should be treated and monitored in the same manner?

While I find it good that the stats have improved,  40% of all patients are found with metastatic disease, which can be very efficient in killing such patients.

More for general education, but a reminder that cancers even in the same organ can be highly different.  This is true for other cancers as well, witness the BRCA genes in breast cancer.  Thus, no neat magic bullet, and a great deal of skepticism over reports of a single response in any patient.

Plus, the need to know dosage, delivery method (don't want the body just to digest the meds and piddle them out), and the side effects that might emerge.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Tue Aug 25, 2015 06:58 PM
Quote | ReplyYes, I guess my posts are too long. The 5 year survival I quoted was 12%. Surprising that there would be such limited followup. The cost pressure must have a lot to do with this. SEER said there are over 300,000 Americans living with or recovering from kidney cancer.

Yes, I simply do not understand how a 7 cm internal tumor that could be highly vascularized would not go metastatic. When I was reading about the staging and they mentioned that range of tumor sizes it simply did not make sense.

It is also quite notable how the numbers have changed recently. Things have improved.

One thing that has occurred to me is that there would be no requirement that 3-BP would have to be the glycolysis inhibitor to take advantage of this research. Probably the most sensible idea would be to use for example DCA which is much better characterized than 3-BP.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by lilyt on Wed Aug 26, 2015 02:59 AM
Quote | ReplyHello everyone,

Thought I would share with you something interesting about reprograming cancer cells back to normal cells. I know its off topic, but thought it may be interesting :)

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150824064916.ht

I am actually a regular reader, but not a regular poster. Anyway, greetings for this amazing forum!
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Meech90 on Wed Aug 26, 2015 07:01 AM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 25, 2015 10:58 PM Jcancom wrote:

Yes, I guess my posts are too long. The 5 year survival I quoted was 12%. Surprising that there would be such limited followup. The cost pressure must have a lot to do with this. SEER said there are over 300,000 Americans living with or recovering from kidney cancer.

Yes, I simply do not understand how a 7 cm internal tumor that could be highly vascularized would not go metastatic. When I was reading about the staging and they mentioned that range of tumor sizes it simply did not make sense.

It is also quite notable how the numbers have changed recently. Things have improved.

One thing that has occurred to me is that there would be no requirement that 3-BP would have to be the glycolysis inhibitor to take advantage of this research. Probably the most sensible idea would be to use for example DCA which is much better characterized than 3-BP.
AFAIK, PET scanning is very ineffective when it comes to RCC.Quote | ReplyMore Sharing ServicesShare Share on email Share on facebook Share on twitterpeggyznd

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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by peggyznd on Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:02 AM
Quote | ReplyRe Meech90's comment that PET scanning is very ineffective for RCC.  That is true in general, as RCC is most often fairly slow-growing, and it is the active growth which is measured by PET scans.  THere are RCC tumor which are unusually aggressive, and therefore might 'light up' with the PET scan, but a good PET scan can miss RCC tumors.  CT scans, bone scans and brain scans may be in order for people.

RE the 7cm tumor, highly vascularized, and yet still considered 'small'.  That no doubt reflects the older times when CTs were not so common, and only large and larger kidney tumors were found by a physical exam.  NOw that it is shown that the 4-7cm tumor is far more likely to have the potential to have established unseen mets, I hope for more aggressive scanning post surgery to find those mets.  Others have 4-7cm tumors, which have visible mets--but doctors often do not go looking for them, and with obvious consequences.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:01 PM
Quote | ReplyWelcome back poster!

D has been working away on a protocol at below url.

http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184?

This really helps bring everthing we know about 3-BP into a single cohesive document. Often the thread can become somewhat chaotic: bringing all the research together should really help.

Very interesting article on PLEKHA7. I do not want to even think about how long this will take to reach approval.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:24 PM
Quote | ReplyI was wondering what the implications of "an apparent absence of mitochondria" might be on tumor growth. I know we are supposed to be on our best behaviour and thus we should stay away from speculations, though a slow growing tumors would not be entirely unexpected when mitochondraia were highly depleted.

The above mentioned 3-BP ccRCC article might have unrecognized importance to the ccRCC patient ommunity. The article notes that the ccRCC cell lines typically studied did not display the properties that were found when studying primary cell lines. Studying cells closer to those of actual patients might point the way forward to innovative treatments such as glycolysis inhibitors.

Almost impossible to imagine that diagnosing cancer could be so primitive! cm scale tumors that could not be seen? I do not understand. In some research they are able to make entire tobacco plants glow in the dark! I would have thought there would be a cancer scan that could pick up a marker even on mm scales. Obviously this must be the future of cancer. Go to your doctor after you have your annual cancer scan that can resolve tumors at a sub-mm scale. I am not sure what a doctor could do with a first time presenting cancer patient with a >10 cm internal tumor.

I also wonder about different types of scans that might be developed. For example, I suggested that perhaps radioactively labeled 3-BP could be combined with PET so that cancer cells that would uptake 3-BP could be differentiated from those that would not. I think it would be interesting if they could develop a scan that showed active mitochondria (OXPHOS). I am not sure whether such scans exist, though given the quoted article on ccRCC it might be useful to have such technology.

It would be helpful for the 3-BP ccRCC research to move into animal models. It is not necessary for people to be the guinea pigs.  Such research would help clarify whether what is true in cell culture would also be true in vivo and possibly in humans.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by peggyznd on Wed Aug 26, 2015 04:30 PM
Quote | ReplyJcancom, You reference several things that are important for people to understand, especially about research as it is exceedingly complex. It must be accurate and reliable for it to have value.  However, the traditional manner of starting any lab study is with cells, not people or even mice.  Those cells come from cell lines, derived from tumors.  Those cell lines can differ, and may not always be the best testing grounds for cancers, especially the rarer ones.  Mice that are given cancer from human cell lines are still mice, which have different reactions within their systems to human cells, cancerous or not.  It is also pretty obvious that this research can work in the lab, in a mouse, and still not work in a real patients--and there are lots of different patient types!

Next, re the doc missing a 10cm tumor; it happens frequently, in many tumor types, including kidney, colon, pancreatic and others.  In order to see an internal cancer, you have to search for it with an imaging device, ultrasound, CT or MRI, etc.  EAch has its own characteristics and may be better at finding one type of tumor, bone or soft tissue than another.  And if you have ever looked at CT images, with tiny mets to be noticed in the middle of all the 100s of slices that might be done, you have to admire those who are looking for them.

Further you might find 'something', and still not know if it is a cancer, a benign mass, scar tissue, some weird blood vessel formation, old arthritis, pneumonia etc.

When my doctor found my 10 cm tumor on an ultra sound, he ordered a CT scan which included my lungs, and promptly failed to tell me about the mets in my lungs, and suggested I see someone else.  Not that helpful.

In my case, surgery followed from someone else--didn't trust the guy--who could immediately feel the tumor in my belly,  and from there I was directed to an immune-stimulating FDA approved treatment, called high dose interleukin.  That cleared my lung, in an immune response, not officially chemo or a targeted therapy, but my body doing the work it had missed when the tumor grew.  That was eleven years ago.

More about this and kidney cancer issues in general on my blog at www.peggyRCC.com .
Quote | Reply

### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Wed Aug 26, 2015 05:15 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 26, 2015 6:59 AM lilyt wrote:

Hello everyone,

Thought I would share with you something interesting about reprograming cancer cells back to normal cells. I know its off topic, but thought it may be interesting :)

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150824064916.ht m?utm\_source=dlvr.it&utm\_medium=facebook"" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150824064916.ht  target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150824064916.ht

I am actually a regular reader, but not a regular poster. Anyway, greetings for this amazing forum!
Thank you for the link lilyt. Interesting indeed.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Wed Aug 26, 2015 09:07 PM
Quote | ReplyThank you everyone for giving a little space on the thread to talk about this interesting new research with 3-BP and ccRCC.

Our thread often has quite a bit of energy and goes in all sorts of directions at once. High energy can be good, though sometimes we miss out on important developments because we are not tuned in. I hope others on the thread have also been intrigued with this new research.  It surprises me sometimes that possibly important research is published and for months the implications are not appreciated.

This is all the more true with 3-BP as there is no commercial driving force to bring it to market. We can only hope that the ccRCC community is paying attention and thinking what this might mean for them. A big concern is that researchers will not be motivated by the impressive ccRCC 3-BP cell results and move it to mice.

I was very surprised that a doctor could possibly miss a 10 cm tumor! I was thinking more that a patient could! I thought a patient without any diagnostic technology might wait for a tumor to grow to 10 cm and then it would simply become very painful etc. . I had not thought that it would be difficult to make a diagnosis from there. We really need better diagnostics! Perhaps a blood test that checks for minute levels of circulating cancer cells. ?

So, of the nearly 400,000 American kidney cancer patients or recovering patients possibly 10,000 would have an interest in 3-BP, though considering the availability of other glycolysis inhibitors such as DCA, 3-BP might not be the best choice for them.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by LetterRip on Thu Aug 27, 2015 09:20 AM
Quote | ReplyJcancom,

tumors only cause pain if they impinge on a nerve or blood supply, or interfere with hormones, or result in a structural weakness that results in injury, or are causing organ failure.

There are blood and urine tests that are being designed, but they are mostly for detecting specific cancers (bladder, breast, pancreatic).  It is possible one of the microarray methods will allow a screening test for a wide spectrum of cancers
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by LetterRip on Thu Aug 27, 2015 09:25 AM
Quote | ReplyOne problem with such a 'screen' is that every person on the planet has cells that are precancerous and have at least some of the mutations that we associate with cancer, the immune system is very good at taking care of these.  Also there will be tumors that while technically cancerous, the individual will likely die from other causes long before it becomes medically important.  Discovering a tumor that never needs to be treated simply will incure a huge expense and stress with no benefit and possibly be detrimental.

So such screens are non trivial due for a number of reasons.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:35 PM
Quote | ReplyIt is just so unbelievable to me that there is no built in cancer alarm. If I cut my finger on a piece of paper, then my finger will hurt a lot and I will know that there is a problem. It is startling that one can have a substantial tumor load and there is no particular warning given. This might be something to consider genetically engineer into people.

It is very discouraging that better diagnostics have not arrived. Recently there was a report that an early method of detecting pancreatic cancer using a urine sample might be effective. Such technology will likely take many years to reach the clinic.

Almost everything with cancer involves so much capital investment that virtually all innovation becomes blocked. If one invented a great new compute program, one could launch it on the internet immediately without any regulatory oversight and be a billionaire tomorrow. With cancer often even after investing a billion dollars into a research money pit, you are still nowhere near daylight. What would be the harm of a pancreatic urine test that was only say 80% accurate and was marketed on an as is basis?

I have also wondered about having some of these cancer marker tests done preventatively. The LDH test only costs $4.15. In the modern consumer marketplace, opening up lab testing so that they would be available over the counter to people who would pay out of pocket does not seem unreasonable. Doctors are often placed in the position of being gatekeepers for the resources in medical systems. Allowing patients direct access to the labs would avoid such conflicts of interest.

In terms of the financial implications of finding small cancers in substantial numbers of otherwise healthy people, I might suggest that this could provide the perfect impetus to actually develop treatments that could halt progression of such tumors at an early stage. For most people the immediate response, if told they have cancer, would be to try and do something about it. It does not seem unreasonable with the current state of cancer technology that small tumors could be managed with  noninvasive treatment ( Perhaps an oncovirus etc.).

However, admittedly, for some watchful waiting might be the strategy that would be deemed appropriate. Even still, if an effective early intervention were developed why not remove any lurking risks?

Such a strategy of treating early stage cancers would be a windfall for pharmaceutical companies who would then not be placed in the position of taking substantial amounts of money from very sick people. A cancer lifestyle medicine of modest cost would be a win for everyone.

Considering the fairly dismal progress made over the last many decades in clinical research into cancer such a mass early intervention effort might offer the best near term payback for cancer treatment progress.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Caddy on Fri Aug 28, 2015 09:59 AM
Quote | ReplyD,

Re the oxygen transportation theory: I came across this article about the use of nitroglycerin today:

http://ecancer.org/news/7671-exploding-the-drug-deadlock--re

For those 3BP infusers who can't be on the treadmill it might be an interesting agent to use?

Incidentally the author, Pan Pantziarka, is a leading light in repurposing drugs in Europe, is passionate about involving patients and is a fellow coputer scientist - and would be a very good person to support your work. I have told him about 3BP.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:11 AM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 28, 2015 1:59 PM Caddy wrote:

D,

Re the oxygen transportation theory: I came across this article about the use of nitroglycerin today:

http://ecancer.org/news/7671-exploding-the-drug-deadlock--re purposing-nitroglycerin-for-anti-cancer-treatments.php"" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://ecancer.org/news/7671-exploding-the-drug-deadlock--re  target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://ecancer.org/news/7671-exploding-the-drug-deadlock--re

For those 3BP infusers who can't be on the treadmill it might be an interesting agent to use?

Incidentally the author, Pan Pantziarka, is a leading light in repurposing drugs in Europe, is passionate about involving patients and is a fellow coputer scientist - and would be a very good person to support your work. I have told him about 3BP.
Great! Thank you! I am following his publications and like their work at AnticancerFund.

But I didnt read this one yet since it was just published yesterday :) I am looking forward to see what is inside but I am sure is value. Btw, have a look on teh list of suggested addition to 3BP on my page: http://www.cancertreatmentsresearch.com/?p=184

Nitroglycerine was allready there ;)
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:32 AM
Quote | ReplyMCT-1 is driven by protons. I wonder whether 3-BP's knocking down energy production in the cell might interfere with its own uptake via the MCT-1.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Caddy on Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:08 AM
Quote | ReplyJ,

"Even still, if an effective early intervention were developed why not remove any lurking risks?"

Before I had Colon Cancer, I had Prostate cancer. I took 7 months to decide upon a course of treatment. But I know many men who, when told they had a slow growing tumour, opted for surgery. They are now dealing with devastating side-effects which have significantly reducaed their quality of life. Similarly many women, when told they have breat cancer opt for double mastectomies, such is the fear that the c-word provokes, even though their cancer would never kill them.

In general, I'd want to know. But, over-treatment is becoming a real issue, due to screening techniques.

We will eventually, I believe, come to look on cancer as a chronic condition that we can live with, just as I live with my hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. I used to competitively race marathons. Once I knew I had a heart condition I stopped all forms of strenuous exercise.In  hindsight, that was a decision made out of fear. With 23and me we can get a estimate of how long we might live and whether we might get dementia, or parkinsons, or cancer - but do we want to know?

Quality of life matters. And our psychological state is as important as our physical state.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Caddy on Fri Aug 28, 2015 04:26 PM
Quote | ReplySorry, just to be clear on my previous response: I meant to say that for some people with prostate or breast cancer, their condition would never kill them, and they'd die of something else. Others, of course, have more aggressive forms, for whom screening works.

There was a very good programme on the BBC recently looking at screening. It concluded that, for many cancers, improved screening has not extended overall survival stats. The notable exception being screening for Colorectal cancer (which I didn't get screened...what an idiot!)
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Fri Aug 28, 2015 09:44 PM
Quote | ReplyThat is interesting a 3-BP and curcumin combo. Below article was noted in the protocol. I wonder how well they would synergize.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25229889
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Sun Aug 30, 2015 04:54 AM
Quote | ReplyGreat presentation on Monocarboxylate Transporters: http://www.njacs.org/wp-content/docs/2010-Spring-DrugMet-Mar

Includes list of elements interacting with MCTs and some studies of MCTs in different tissues.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Caddy on Sun Aug 30, 2015 06:51 AM
Quote | ReplyOh, that's MUCH, clearer, Danielus! I think I understood about one word in three, but i'm sure you'll give us the version for non-scientists like me.

As someone who has been juicing large amounts of carrots (rich in Luteolin) to try to keep colon cancer cells in their place, I wonder if you can tell me if this presentation suggests that Luteolin is a goodie or a baddie?
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Sun Aug 30, 2015 06:55 AM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 30, 2015 10:51 AM Caddy wrote:

Oh, that's MUCH, clearer, Danielus! I think I understood about one word in three, but i'm sure you'll give us the version for non-scientists like me.

As someone who has been juicing large amounts of carrots (rich in Luteolin) to try to keep colon cancer cells in their place, I wonder if you can tell me if this presentation suggests that Luteolin is a goodie or a baddie?
MUCH clearer is always good :)

Luteolin is good Caddy but not with 3BP.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Caddy on Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:29 AM
Quote | ReplyI just had a message from someone at the Inspire forum saying (somewhat vaguely) that Daysprings had stopped using 3BP, as it was 'fuelling a lot of people's cancers'. As I say it was not very specific, but I wonder if anyone here had heard that?
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by mar60 on Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:51 AM
Quote | ReplyPff..scary.. :(   will start the 3 bp treatment on 7 september in Germany..
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Mon Aug 31, 2015 12:02 PM
Quote | ReplyDear Lord. We hear that Dr. Ko's protocol is resulting in plus-80% success and ("somewhat vaguely" notwithstanding) that one of the primary clinics utilising it has apparently ceased to do so. D. will no doubt have more intelligent comments than I, but this surely must be protocol-related (?)
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Mon Aug 31, 2015 12:03 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 31, 2015 3:51 PM mar60 wrote:

Pff..scary.. :(   will start the 3 bp treatment on 7 september in Germany..
Best wishes to you Mar60!
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by jetsparkle on Mon Aug 31, 2015 12:25 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 31, 2015 4:03 PM Moonlitnight wrote:

On Aug 31, 2015 3:51 PM mar60 wrote:

Pff..scary.. :(   will start the 3 bp treatment on 7 september in Germany..
Best wishes to you Mar60!
Ditto with the best wishes to you, Mar60.  Please keep us updated, if possible, with your treatment.  Keep thinking positively about it, too--mind/body connection!

And I do think that, if usage is being suspended in some clinics,  it may probably have  to do with the formulation and the adjunctive protocol--plus follow-up at home vital.

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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by jetsparkle on Mon Aug 31, 2015 12:40 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 31, 2015 3:29 PM Caddy wrote:

I just had a message from someone at the Inspire forum saying (somewhat vaguely) that Daysprings had stopped using 3BP, as it was 'fuelling a lot of people's cancers'. As I say it was not very specific, but I wonder if anyone here had heard that?
Just went to the Dayspring web site--there is still mention of the usage of 3-BP, cases they have treated, etc.

Wondering what is really going on--hopefully D will have information about it.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by mar60 on Mon Aug 31, 2015 12:57 PM
Quote | ReplyI asked them in an email if it is true they stopped the 3bp treatments..waiting for an answer now..
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Mon Aug 31, 2015 01:00 PM
Quote | ReplyI am surprised to hear that so lets check that first. My opinion about 3BP: it is like the brush used for painting. Some will get great paintings with it and others will get ... nothing. But anyway, lets first clarify if Dayspring indeed decided to stop.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Caddy on Mon Aug 31, 2015 01:07 PM
Quote | ReplyJust want to stress again that this was purely anecdotal - so there may b e no truth behind the comment. And you would have expected them to have taken it off the website were that the case!
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by jetsparkle on Mon Aug 31, 2015 01:22 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 31, 2015 5:07 PM Caddy wrote:

Just want to stress again that this was purely anecdotal - so there may b e no truth behind the comment. And you would have expected them to have taken it off the website were that the case!
Agreed--and would advise not to try to access the Dayspring website right now.  Went back to review it and was warned: "This site may be hacked".

I think it has been because now a San Francisco address is being used--along with a phone number that is NOT a San Francisco area code.

So be aware something is wrong right now with Dayspring's website--perhaps D or someone else has another connection to the clinic so that they can be made aware of this problem of their site potentially having been hacked.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by jetsparkle on Mon Aug 31, 2015 01:31 PM
Quote | ReplyShould have explained that happened when I googled "Dayspring Cancer Clinic" and then the hacking message was there as a warning.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Mon Aug 31, 2015 01:34 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 31, 2015 5:31 PM jetsparkle wrote:

Should have explained that happened when I googled "Dayspring Cancer Clinic" and then the hacking message was there as a warning.
That warning is also coming up in the Google Search but my mobile goes straight there and gives the correct addy.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by mar60 on Mon Aug 31, 2015 01:57 PM
Quote | ReplyJust received an email from Day Spring cancer clinic !....Hi Margreet,
No, we still use 3bp at Dayspring.  Have someone starting today. Cannot speak for other clinics but we have seen some great results using 3bp.Dr DickensQuote | ReplyMore Sharing ServicesShare Share on email Share on facebook Share on twitterjetsparkle

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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by jetsparkle on Mon Aug 31, 2015 02:36 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 31, 2015 5:57 PM mar60 wrote:

Just received an email from Day Spring cancer clinic !....Hi Margreet,
No, we still use 3bp at Dayspring.  Have someone starting today. Cannot speak for other clinics but we have seen some great results using 3bp.Dr DickensWelcomed news then, mar60.  Thank you for sharing this with us.

No doubt many things will be swirling about on the internet now about the usage of 3-BP--some true, some unfounded.  But we are interested in hearing about any of these--so that 3-BP will become better known and knowledge about it even becoming more defined.

Best wishes again for your upcoming treatment in Germany--and keep thinking positively--so glad you are able to go there!
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Caddy on Mon Aug 31, 2015 03:09 PM
Quote | ReplyI checked back with the Inspire poster. She said it was Daysprings because Angie Holder had written to her quoting Jason Williams. I think she's getting Daysprings and Bogota mixed up.

Mar60, can I echo the others in wishing you well - please let us know how you feel and respond to the treatment. You're one of the pioneers, and others will learn so much from your experiences!

(I sent you a private message too)
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Mon Aug 31, 2015 03:16 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 31, 2015 7:09 PM Caddy wrote:

I checked back with the Inspire poster. She said it was Daysprings because Angie Holder had written to her quoting Jason Williams. I think she's getting Daysprings and Bogota mixed up.

Mar60, can I echo the others in wishing you well - please let us know how you feel and respond to the treatment. You're one of the pioneers, and others will learn so much from your experiences!

(I sent you a private message too)
Sounds like a mix-up as Angie is with Dr. Williams for sure. Gosh, Dr. W. isn't too high on 3BP is he? How would one know if "progression" could be attributed to 3BP anyway? I can see it being attributed to it not working while being the only anti-neoplastic protocol used, but not the direct cause of progression.
Quote | Reply

### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by peggyznd on Mon Aug 31, 2015 04:15 PM
Quote | ReplyI am confused as to your thinking on the progression issue.  If there is a pattern established of some regular growth, or longer term stability, then the addition of a new med/agent followed by unexpected progression naturally would lead one to consider if that was caused by the new element.

There are afterall, certain brakes on the growth of the cancer cells, some due to improved immune response, others to lack of needed nutrients in it growth, other times for lack of a physical support system in the cellular matrix.  Without understanding whether this 3BP affects those other variables, or if the carrier of the 3BP or other agent somehow affects the cells, this is just a lot of wishful thinking.  And we all want the simple answer, which sadly is more wishful than thinking.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Mon Aug 31, 2015 04:26 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 31, 2015 8:15 PM peggyznd wrote:

I am confused as to your thinking on the progression issue.  If there is a pattern established of some regular growth, or longer term stability, then the addition of a new med/agent followed by unexpected progression naturally would lead one to consider if that was caused by the new element.

There are afterall, certain brakes on the growth of the cancer cells, some due to improved immune response, others to lack of needed nutrients in it growth, other times for lack of a physical support system in the cellular matrix.  Without understanding whether this 3BP affects those other variables, or if the carrier of the 3BP or other agent somehow affects the cells, this is just a lot of wishful thinking.  And we all want the simple answer, which sadly is more wishful than thinking.
Yes that is true, Peggy. I am thinking though that there are usually quite a few infusions and what-not done by these clinics offering 3BP, which would make it challenging to figure out what was actually happening in terms of benefits and cessation of benefits.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by sumeetnag on Mon Aug 31, 2015 04:29 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 31, 2015 5:57 PM mar60 wrote:

Just received an email from Day Spring cancer clinic !....Hi Margreet,
No, we still use 3bp at Dayspring.  Have someone starting today. Cannot speak for other clinics but we have seen some great results using 3bp.Dr DickensHi,

Dayspring still uses 3BP but a touch different protocol to what has been shared so far. They claim non disclosure so guess we will never know.

They have treated 2 breast cancer patients so far, one was treated in December 2014, bone mets cleared up and the primary has been contained. They did not do intra tumoral with this patient. They suggested but the patient declined.

The second breast cancer patient has a 10x12 primary and they are considering on intra tumoral. Dr.Willia ms had mentioned 3bp struggles if the tumor load is heavy and thats when they use cryoablation to release enough antigens for immunotherapy to work. They keep 3 bp for later as a systematic treatment.

Thats what I understood, we will hopefully get to know how the patient reacts in 3 weeks time.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Mon Aug 31, 2015 04:32 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 31, 2015 8:29 PM sumeetnag wrote:

On Aug 31, 2015 5:57 PM mar60 wrote:

Just received an email from Day Spring cancer clinic !....Hi Margreet,
No, we still use 3bp at Dayspring.  Have someone starting today. Cannot speak for other clinics but we have seen some great results using 3bp.Dr DickensHi,

Dayspring still uses 3BP but a touch different protocol to what has been shared so far. They claim non disclosure so guess we will never know.

They have treated 2 breast cancer patients so far, one was treated in December 2014, bone mets cleared up and the primary has been contained. They did not do intra tumoral with this patient. They suggested but the patient declined.

The second breast cancer patient has a 10x12 primary and they are considering on intra tumoral. Dr.Willia "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://Dr.Willia " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia  ms had mentioned 3bp struggles if the tumor load is heavy and thats when they use cryoablation to release enough antigens for immunotherapy to work. They keep 3 bp for later as a systematic treatment.

Thats what I understood, we will hopefully get to know how the patient reacts in 3 weeks time.
That is one of my big concerns as my husband has a large tumour burden and much of it in the bones.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by mar60 on Mon Aug 31, 2015 04:36 PM
Quote | ReplyI dont understand..what are the struggles?
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by sumeetnag on Mon Aug 31, 2015 04:52 PM
Quote | ReplyHave you considered cryoablation to debulk the primary?Quote | ReplyMore Sharing ServicesShare Share on email Share on facebook Share on twittersumeetnag

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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by sumeetnag on Mon Aug 31, 2015 04:52 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 31, 2015 8:32 PM Moonlitnight wrote:

On Aug 31, 2015 8:29 PM sumeetnag wrote:

On Aug 31, 2015 5:57 PM mar60 wrote:

Just received an email from Day Spring cancer clinic !....Hi Margreet,
No, we still use 3bp at Dayspring.  Have someone starting today. Cannot speak for other clinics but we have seen some great results using 3bp.Dr DickensHi,

Dayspring still uses 3BP but a touch different protocol to what has been shared so far. They claim non disclosure so guess we will never know.

They have treated 2 breast cancer patients so far, one was treated in December 2014, bone mets cleared up and the primary has been contained. They did not do intra tumoral with this patient. They suggested but the patient declined.

The second breast cancer patient has a 10x12 primary and they are considering on intra tumoral. 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rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://Dr.Willia " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia  " " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://Dr.Willia " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia  " " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://Dr.Willia " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia  " " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://Dr.Willia " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">Dr.Willia  ms had mentioned 3bp struggles if the tumor load is heavy and thats when they use cryoablation to release enough antigens for immunotherapy to work. They keep 3 bp for later as a systematic treatment.

Thats what I understood, we will hopefully get to know how the patient reacts in 3 weeks time.
That is one of my big concerns as my husband has a large tumour burden and much of it in the bones.
Have you considered cryoablation to debulk the primary?Quote | ReplyMore Sharing ServicesShare Share on email Share on facebook Share on twitterjetsparkle

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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by jetsparkle on Mon Aug 31, 2015 05:16 PM
Quote | ReplyMedical insurance in the U.S. does not recognize the usage of cryoablation for breast cancer tumors.  The personal cost of such is in the tens of thousands--probably upwards to $50,000 by the time everything is done. Very few doctors do this type of treatment for patients--Dr. Jason Williams being one.  However, I am fairly sure he incorporates other treatments with such--i.e., immunotherapies such as Yervoy and Keytruda now.  Used to be 3-BP--but he seems reluctant to use this at this point.

Not sure exactly what other areas of the body are recognized by the insurance companies today and can use cryo for debulking--but definitely breast cancer tumor cryo not approved.  So most  breast cancer patients can only resort to surgery via breast surgeons--and this can spread the cancer.  Did in my case anyway.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by jetsparkle on Mon Aug 31, 2015 05:17 PM
Quote | ReplyMedical insurance in the U.S. does not recognize the usage of cryoablation for breast cancer tumors.  The personal cost of such is in the tens of thousands--probably upwards to $50,000 by the time everything is done. Very few doctors do this type of treatment for patients--Dr. Jason Williams being one.  However, I am fairly sure he incorporates other treatments with such--i.e., immunotherapies such as Yervoy and Keytruda now.  Used to be 3-BP--but he seems reluctant to use this at this point.

Not sure exactly what other areas of the body are recognized by the insurance companies today and can use cryo for debulking--but definitely breast cancer tumor cryo not approved.  So most  breast cancer patients can only resort to surgery via breast surgeons--and this can spread the cancer.  Did in my case anyway.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by jetsparkle on Mon Aug 31, 2015 05:21 PM
Quote | ReplyHopefully this message will pass inspection...other one is
"under review" by the thread...have no idea why. So if you see a repeat message--that is because it has been approved and will by posted later..good grief.

Anyway, just wanted to note that cryoablation for breast cancer is not recognized in the U.S. by the insurance industry.  And not well known by those who do perform it on other areas of the body.  Breast surgeons only are technically "allowed" to debulk breast tumors.  In may case, cancer spread afterwards very rapidly through the lymphatic system.

Personal cost of doing this could mount up to $50,000.00 by the time everything is done.  Dr. Williams is the only one I know of right now who does it--and he is now using Keytruda and Yervoy as immunological agents afterwards.  Seems he is wary of using 3-BP at this point in time.

Quote | Reply

### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by sumeetnag on Mon Aug 31, 2015 05:33 PM
Quote | ReplyThere is a Chinese hospital called Fuda which has been practising it. If you google you will find a few blogs of patients who have tried cryo+immuno+brachytherapy. There are some clinical trial articles http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959804914  Also u can search pubmed with author L NiuQuote | ReplyMore Sharing ServicesShare Share on email Share on facebook Share on twittersumeetnag

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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by sumeetnag on Mon Aug 31, 2015 05:34 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 31, 2015 9:21 PM jetsparkle wrote:

Hopefully this message will pass inspection...other one is
"under review" by the thread...have no idea why. So if you see a repeat message--that is because it has been approved and will by posted later..good grief.

Anyway, just wanted to note that cryoablation for breast cancer is not recognized in the U.S. by the insurance industry.  And not well known by those who do perform it on other areas of the body.  Breast surgeons only are technically "allowed" to debulk breast tumors.  In may case, cancer spread afterwards very rapidly through the lymphatic system.

Personal cost of doing this could mount up to $50,000.00 by the time everything is done.  Dr. Williams is the only one I know of right now who does it--and he is now using Keytruda and Yervoy as immunological agents afterwards.  Seems he is wary of using 3-BP at this point in time.

There is a Chinese hospital called Fuda which has been practising it. If you google you will find a few blogs of patients who have tried cryo+immuno+brachytherapy. There are some clinical trial articles http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959804914  Also u can search pubmed with author L Niu for related articles.Quote | ReplyMore Sharing ServicesShare Share on email Share on facebook Share on twitterpeggyznd

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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by peggyznd on Mon Aug 31, 2015 05:35 PM
Quote | ReplyCryoablation is commonly used and paid for by insurance for kidney cancers and others.  There are ongoing studies in using it in small breast cancers, and it is currently in use for small benign tumors of the breast.  A properly removed breast cancer does NOT necessarily then spread throughout the system through the lymphatic system.  In each mastectomy, a lymph node or several removed and immediately tested to see if the cancer has already reached those nodes.  If that had not happened, no further nodes are removed.  If cancer is found in those nodes, they are removed which is a more extensive surgery.

been there, done that, so know of the procedures, as per experts.  And not every cancer surgeon is an expert...
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by jetsparkle on Mon Aug 31, 2015 06:06 PM
Quote | ReplyBeen there, done that myself 3 years ago.  Mammogram and ultrasound did not show complete tumor of 7.5cm.  Both radiologists thought it was only a small area--breast surgeon was the one who suspected larger area and validated during surgery.

Core biopsy was a disaster--3 attempts with an 18-gauge needle that seemed to go through concrete--still they did not think tumor very large.  Go figure.

About 6 axillary lymph nodes found to be cancerous.  Who knows if they were or not prior to that botched core biopsy?  John Wayne Cancer Center has done studies showing such biopsies can indeed cause spreading of such--and other studies indicate the same.  Although mainstream continues to try and deny that.

Weeks after the surgery, clavicular lymph nodes became enlarged.  One oncologist thought nothing of it--another said they were cancerous.  PET/CT scan radiologist would not rule it out.  Well, they are indeed cancerous today--spreading and enlarging.

Yes, there are ongoing, belated, strung-out studies of using cryo for breast cancers.  Ridiculous since proven with other tumors already--why wait for breast cancer patients to suffer more when cryo is much more efficient and less taxing on the body than all of the inflammation involved with regular surgery?

Big deal they are using it for small benign tumors--can you tell that I am irritated about the lack of concern for those in dire need for help?

I talked with a nurse associated with a top cryo surgeon in California.  She was unaware that cryo was being used for breast tumors--as was the doctor for whom she works.  She and I both were of the consensus that breast surgeons, in general, would have to re-vamp their procedures--and are slow in doing this.  Their world would change--they now would have to become experts in cryo after years of perfecting their surgery skills otherwise.

The breast surgeon I had is a lovely person--considered top in her field.  But these surgeons themselves should be pushing for better ways to address breast tumors.  Not stay entrenched in only surgery.  Studies creep along--and people are both suffering and dying.  It is repulsive.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by sumeetnag on Mon Aug 31, 2015 06:08 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 31, 2015 9:35 PM peggyznd wrote:

Cryoablation is commonly used and paid for by insurance for kidney cancers and others.  There are ongoing studies in using it in small breast cancers, and it is currently in use for small benign tumors of the breast.  A properly removed breast cancer does NOT necessarily then spread throughout the system through the lymphatic system.  In each mastectomy, a lymph node or several removed and immediately tested to see if the cancer has already reached those nodes.  If that had not happened, no further nodes are removed.  If cancer is found in those nodes, they are removed which is a more extensive surgery.

been there, done that, so know of the procedures, as per experts.  And not every cancer surgeon is an expert...
Thanks Peggy. Agree with you.There  are too many references of cancer spreading like wild fire, etc with most alternative protocols. I have not seen any facts related to that, this article which is released on pubmed and hence hopefully will not get removed, sheds some light: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  Also our organs are connected through meridians, cancer need not stay in the lymph nodes, it can be in the blood stream and find a more favourable place to grow. There are many references where even stage 1 Tumor post surgery has turned metastatic within a year. So what hypothesis do we derive from there? There is a hypothesis infection starts in the root canals, in mums case it was the same tooth on her left breast meridian, plain co-incidence not sure. With metastatic disease, the Tumor has taken various forms and works differently for different tumours. Via some protocol mets in her lungs reduced in SUV values though it showed no result on the primary. 3 BP shows good results with bone mets and with tumours of reduced load is what I understand. Cryo works best if Tumor is greater than 2 cm to create enough antigens for immuno to work. Too much of cryo can overwhelm the immune system. Hence a systematic 3 BP treatment should be considered if immuno Yevyroy has not done the job. There are other dendritic cell immuno approaches as well. 3bp needs up regulation of MCT1, most forms known or listed don't do the job to penetrate enough with high Tumor loads. There are some blood thinning protocols like habanero peppers for 2 weeks which can reduce Tumor bulk. May be a combination of the above approach, who knows?Quote | ReplyMore Sharing ServicesShare Share on email Share on facebook Share on twitterDanielus

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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Mon Aug 31, 2015 06:20 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 31, 2015 10:08 PM sumeetnag wrote:

On Aug 31, 2015 9:35 PM peggyznd wrote:

Cryoablation is commonly used and paid for by insurance for kidney cancers and others.  There are ongoing studies in using it in small breast cancers, and it is currently in use for small benign tumors of the breast.  A properly removed breast cancer does NOT necessarily then spread throughout the system through the lymphatic system.  In each mastectomy, a lymph node or several removed and immediately tested to see if the cancer has already reached those nodes.  If that had not happened, no further nodes are removed.  If cancer is found in those nodes, they are removed which is a more extensive surgery.

been there, done that, so know of the procedures, as per experts.  And not every cancer surgeon is an expert...
Thanks Peggy. Agree with you.There "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  are too many references of cancer spreading like wild fire, etc with most alternative protocols. I have not seen any facts related to that, this article which is released on pubmed and hence hopefully will not get removed, sheds some light: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  Also our organs are connected through meridians, cancer need not stay in the lymph nodes, it can be in the blood stream and find a more favourable place to grow. There are many references where even stage 1 Tumor post surgery has turned metastatic within a year. So what hypothesis do we derive from there? There is a hypothesis infection starts in the root canals, in mums case it was the same tooth on her left breast meridian, plain co-incidence not sure. With metastatic disease, the Tumor has taken various forms and works differently for different tumours. Via some protocol mets in her lungs reduced in SUV values though it showed no result on the primary. 3 BP shows good results with bone mets and with tumours of reduced load is what I understand. Cryo works best if Tumor is greater than 2 cm to create enough antigens for immuno to work. Too much of cryo can overwhelm the immune system. Hence a systematic 3 BP treatment should be considered if immuno Yevyroy has not done the job. There are other dendritic cell immuno approaches as well. 3bp needs up regulation of MCT1, most forms known or listed don't do the job to penetrate enough with high Tumor loads. There are some blood thinning protocols like habanero peppers for 2 weeks which can reduce Tumor bulk. May be a combination of the above approach, who knows?"3 BP shows good results with bone mets and with tumours of reduced load is what I understand" - not only summeetnag. If the conditions are right the same may apply for large tumors as well.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by JRW07 on Mon Aug 31, 2015 06:20 PM
Quote | ReplyI just happened to see this and wanted to clarify on cost mentioned.  Breast cryoablation alone is about 14-19k.  The immunotherapy (Yervoy, Opdivo can add up to another $16k)

I hope this info is helpful.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by sumeetnag on Mon Aug 31, 2015 06:25 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 31, 2015 10:20 PM Danielus wrote:

On Aug 31, 2015 10:08 PM sumeetnag wrote:

On Aug 31, 2015 9:35 PM peggyznd wrote:

Cryoablation is commonly used and paid for by insurance for kidney cancers and others.  There are ongoing studies in using it in small breast cancers, and it is currently in use for small benign tumors of the breast.  A properly removed breast cancer does NOT necessarily then spread throughout the system through the lymphatic system.  In each mastectomy, a lymph node or several removed and immediately tested to see if the cancer has already reached those nodes.  If that had not happened, no further nodes are removed.  If cancer is found in those nodes, they are removed which is a more extensive surgery.

been there, done that, so know of the procedures, as per experts.  And not every cancer surgeon is an expert...
Thanks Peggy. Agree with you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " 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rel="nofollow">you.There  " " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">you.There  are too many references of cancer spreading like wild fire, etc with most alternative protocols. I have not seen any facts related to that, this article which is released on pubmed and hence hopefully will not get removed, sheds some light: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/ " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23619024/  Also our organs are connected through meridians, cancer need not stay in the lymph nodes, it can be in the blood stream and find a more favourable place to grow. There are many references where even stage 1 Tumor post surgery has turned metastatic within a year. So what hypothesis do we derive from there? There is a hypothesis infection starts in the root canals, in mums case it was the same tooth on her left breast meridian, plain co-incidence not sure. With metastatic disease, the Tumor has taken various forms and works differently for different tumours. Via some protocol mets in her lungs reduced in SUV values though it showed no result on the primary. 3 BP shows good results with bone mets and with tumours of reduced load is what I understand. Cryo works best if Tumor is greater than 2 cm to create enough antigens for immuno to work. Too much of cryo can overwhelm the immune system. Hence a systematic 3 BP treatment should be considered if immuno Yevyroy has not done the job. There are other dendritic cell immuno approaches as well. 3bp needs up regulation of MCT1, most forms known or listed don't do the job to penetrate enough with high Tumor loads. There are some blood thinning protocols like habanero peppers for 2 weeks which can reduce Tumor bulk. May be a combination of the above approach, who knows?"3 BP shows good results with bone mets and with tumours of reduced load is what I understand" - not only summeetnag. If the conditions are right the same may apply for large tumors as well.
Hi Daniel, Have we seen it working for any patients with tumours greater than 7x7 cm? The new Arizona patient is the first one I thought who is trialling it with an intra tumoral approach.Quote | ReplyMore Sharing ServicesShare Share on email Share on facebook Share on twitterpeggyznd

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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by peggyznd on Mon Aug 31, 2015 06:29 PM
Quote | ReplyJetsparkle, I understand the disaster that much cancer treatment can be, and think back to my own situation where the initial advice--post biopsy--was "Go get your breast removed and come back to me for more treatment".  I was sent to an abdominal surgeon, and figured he was NOT the right person.  Quickly to a cancer center, City of Hope, in the LA area, where I had a mastectomy, no further radiation or chemo needed, though on hormone inhibitors, thanks to the more precise infor that was obtained.

It is true that surgeons could and should be expanding their skills, and at a minimum, recognizing that they do NOT have all the tools needed to handle breast and/or other cancers.  It is quite similar in the kidney cancer world, with surgeons saying 'got it all', which then leaves the patient to think that there must be no other monitoring...usual disaster for too many!

Despite the lack of expertise in using cyroablation in breast tumors--never even considered that this would not work in light of its use in RCC--I am shocked to think that it is such a new technique.  Should be far easier than reaching into a kidney.  Freezing the tumor in that locations seems far easier than digging around in the guts world.

Hope that you are dealing with a real expert with your breast cancer, and am planning to write my surgeon with some questions.  Certainly IORTC is being used at City of Hope.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by JRW07 on Mon Aug 31, 2015 06:34 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 31, 2015 7:16 PM Moonlitnight wrote:

On Aug 31, 2015 7:09 PM Caddy wrote:

I checked back with the Inspire poster. She said it was Daysprings because Angie Holder had written to her quoting Jason Williams. I think she's getting Daysprings and Bogota mixed up.

Mar60, can I echo the others in wishing you well - please let us know how you feel and respond to the treatment. You're one of the pioneers, and others will learn so much from your experiences!

(I sent you a private message too)
Sounds like a mix-up as Angie is with Dr. Williams for sure. Gosh, Dr. W. isn't too high on 3BP is he? How would one know if "progression" could be attributed to 3BP anyway? I can see it being attributed to it not working while being the only anti-neoplastic protocol used, but not the direct cause of progression.
Also, I want to clarify, that I think you guys probably are talking about Dr. R and not JW.  Unfortunately, his experience with it was not as good.  However, It can increase growth rate in certain situations.
Quote | Reply

### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by JRW07 on Mon Aug 31, 2015 06:40 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 31, 2015 10:29 PM peggyznd wrote:

Jetsparkle, I understand the disaster that much cancer treatment can be, and think back to my own situation where the initial advice--post biopsy--was "Go get your breast removed and come back to me for more treatment".  I was sent to an abdominal surgeon, and figured he was NOT the right person.  Quickly to a cancer center, City of Hope, in the LA area, where I had a mastectomy, no further radiation or chemo needed, though on hormone inhibitors, thanks to the more precise infor that was obtained.

It is true that surgeons could and should be expanding their skills, and at a minimum, recognizing that they do NOT have all the tools needed to handle breast and/or other cancers.  It is quite similar in the kidney cancer world, with surgeons saying 'got it all', which then leaves the patient to think that there must be no other monitoring...usual disaster for too many!

Despite the lack of expertise in using cyroablation in breast tumors--never even considered that this would not work in light of its use in RCC--I am shocked to think that it is such a new technique.  Should be far easier than reaching into a kidney.  Freezing the tumor in that locations seems far easier than digging around in the guts world.

Hope that you are dealing with a real expert with your breast cancer, and am planning to write my surgeon with some questions.  Certainly IORTC is being used at City of Hope.
Breast cryoablation has been done since at least 2003.  There are several major studies that have taken place at facilites like MD Anderson and Univ of Michigan.  They will want to see longer follow up and more cases before becoming accepted as mainstream.  But it is getting close.  Just look at all the info on Ice Cure

http://icecure-medical.com
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by jetsparkle on Mon Aug 31, 2015 06:54 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 31, 2015 10:40 PM JRW07 wrote:

On Aug 31, 2015 10:29 PM peggyznd wrote:

Jetsparkle, I understand the disaster that much cancer treatment can be, and think back to my own situation where the initial advice--post biopsy--was "Go get your breast removed and come back to me for more treatment".  I was sent to an abdominal surgeon, and figured he was NOT the right person.  Quickly to a cancer center, City of Hope, in the LA area, where I had a mastectomy, no further radiation or chemo needed, though on hormone inhibitors, thanks to the more precise infor that was obtained.

It is true that surgeons could and should be expanding their skills, and at a minimum, recognizing that they do NOT have all the tools needed to handle breast and/or other cancers.  It is quite similar in the kidney cancer world, with surgeons saying 'got it all', which then leaves the patient to think that there must be no other monitoring...usual disaster for too many!

Despite the lack of expertise in using cyroablation in breast tumors--never even considered that this would not work in light of its use in RCC--I am shocked to think that it is such a new technique.  Should be far easier than reaching into a kidney.  Freezing the tumor in that locations seems far easier than digging around in the guts world.

Hope that you are dealing with a real expert with your breast cancer, and am planning to write my surgeon with some questions.  Certainly IORTC is being used at City of Hope.
Breast cryoablation has been done since at least 2003.  There are several major studies that have taken place at facilites like MD Anderson and Univ of Michigan.  They will want to see longer follow up and more cases before becoming accepted as mainstream.  But it is getting close.  Just look at all the info on Ice Cure

http://icecure-medical.com "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://icecure-medical.com " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://icecure-medical.com
Thank you for providing this information.  I hope with all of my heart that breast cryoablation will soon be accepted.  I do believe it is the superior way to handle breast tumors--and probably others, too.

I read about your work more than a year ago in an older Cancer Strategies Journal--was so impressed by the article and your methods.  It was so interesting to read of how even distant areas could be affected positively by using cryoablation--plus the fact there is very little inflammation afterwards. Quicker recovery time, too.

Thank you for your further input/explanation about the costs of cryoablation, too.  With my condition, I have multiple tumors again on the breast on which the lumpectomy was performed--and another one within the other breast.  That is why I provided that higher estimate of $50,000--thinking if I ever could afford cryoablation, my costs would possibly be in that range.

Kudos to you for your fine work with cryoablation and other types of methods that are much more forward-thinking than just typical surgery.  I wish only the best for you as you share your experience and knowledge in this field with others.

Will check out the link you kindly provided, too.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by jetsparkle on Mon Aug 31, 2015 06:59 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 31, 2015 10:29 PM peggyznd wrote:

Jetsparkle, I understand the disaster that much cancer treatment can be, and think back to my own situation where the initial advice--post biopsy--was "Go get your breast removed and come back to me for more treatment".  I was sent to an abdominal surgeon, and figured he was NOT the right person.  Quickly to a cancer center, City of Hope, in the LA area, where I had a mastectomy, no further radiation or chemo needed, though on hormone inhibitors, thanks to the more precise infor that was obtained.

It is true that surgeons could and should be expanding their skills, and at a minimum, recognizing that they do NOT have all the tools needed to handle breast and/or other cancers.  It is quite similar in the kidney cancer world, with surgeons saying 'got it all', which then leaves the patient to think that there must be no other monitoring...usual disaster for too many!

Despite the lack of expertise in using cyroablation in breast tumors--never even considered that this would not work in light of its use in RCC--I am shocked to think that it is such a new technique.  Should be far easier than reaching into a kidney.  Freezing the tumor in that locations seems far easier than digging around in the guts world.

Hope that you are dealing with a real expert with your breast cancer, and am planning to write my surgeon with some questions.  Certainly IORTC is being used at City of Hope.
Thank you for your kind reply.  Will look forward to hearing anything further from you about what your surgeon thinks about all of this.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Moonlitnight on Mon Aug 31, 2015 07:04 PM

Quote | Reply

On Aug 31, 2015 10:34 PM JRW07 wrote:

On Aug 31, 2015 7:16 PM Moonlitnight wrote:

On Aug 31, 2015 7:09 PM Caddy wrote:

I checked back with the Inspire poster. She said it was Daysprings because Angie Holder had written to her quoting Jason Williams. I think she's getting Daysprings and Bogota mixed up.

Mar60, can I echo the others in wishing you well - please let us know how you feel and respond to the treatment. You're one of the pioneers, and others will learn so much from your experiences!

(I sent you a private message too)
Sounds like a mix-up as Angie is with Dr. Williams for sure. Gosh, Dr. W. isn't too high on 3BP is he? How would one know if "progression" could be attributed to 3BP anyway? I can see it being attributed to it not working while being the only anti-neoplastic protocol used, but not the direct cause of progression.
Also, I want to clarify, that I think you guys probably are talking about Dr. R and not JW.  Unfortunately, his experience with it was not as good.  However, It can increase growth rate in certain situations.
Not talking about Dr. R. in my post.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by audiop on Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:22 PM
Quote | ReplyIt's disturbing how rumors turn into disinformation.  Thought I'd jump in.

I was in Scottsdale on 8/9 and met with Dr. Dickens at Dayspring.  Nice guy, smart guy and he was very generous with his time. After the tour he sat with me for about 45 minutes.  He repeated the non-disclosure and I was unable to get any details about his 3-BP therapies.  He is bewildered that more people aren't using 3-BP therapies and thinks at some point he may be forced to shut it down (I assumed he meant 3-BP and not his practice).  He mentioned one patient (I think the pacreatic) should be in remission shortly.  That is amazing. This is a therapy snubbed by Pharma, media and basically unknown to most oncologists.  I left thinking there is hope at Dayspring... albeit, expensive hope.

I'm not one to tell someone how to run a business but I can't help but think a more marketable cost schedule would have setup charges and then pay as you go (yes- profit for the facility at each step).  The chance of spending my last chunk of savings on a program that, a short time in, does nothing or worse, seems to promote disease progression is an absolute nonstarter.  I have to think these facilites would do much better at recruiting if they would get away from the all or nothing approach. You need patients to create glowing case studies and then... CUSTOMERS!  Lots of them!

We're talking about something that actually works right? Shouldn't be hard to market that.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:53 PM
Quote | ReplyOh, this is great I was trying to push for more of a marketing strategy at Dayspring and other 3-BP clinics, though the thread seemed to think this was distasteful.

However, I think that pay as you go 3-BP makes a tremendous amount of sense. We know that some patients will respond to 3-BP, while others might not. If you could quickly determine which patients were going to be the good responders, then there would be so many happy customers to put on your website. If patients could go in with the idea that they would only be paying for treatments that would almost certainly help them, there would be a line around the block.

It could be clearly noted somewhere that there was an initial round of selection. Other patients might still continue with treatment and still benefit, though this might be less certain. (It should be noted that we are hearing reports on this thread that some clinics are now claiming some impressive response rates.)

Selecting for the good responders would create such a positive vibe. They could find the patients that would really benefit and these patients would receive great value for the money they paid. Patients might only need to have one or two treatments to assess their potential for response. My idea of using a dual contrast PET scan with radioactive 3-BP might allow for deep insight into predicting responses.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:18 PM
Quote | ReplySorry everyone I just have to make a suggestion.

Research has found that a bee venom can make gaping big holes in cancer cells. I really wonder what would happen if you were to make these holes and then have some Mito-3-BP to rush in through these holes!

http://www.cell.com/biophysj/fulltext/S0006-3495%2815%290076
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Jcancom on Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:37 PM
Quote | ReplyThe rationale for a combination with taxol.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150831123206.ht
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Wed Sep 02, 2015 03:18 AM

Quote | Reply

On Sep 02, 2015 3:37 AM Jcancom wrote:

The rationale for a combination with taxol.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150831123206.ht m"" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150831123206.ht  target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150831123206.ht
Thnaks J. Nice one. I've seen another paper sometimes ago indicating the same type of combination but from another angle, i.e. mainly because glyco inhibitors would reduce the ATP and thus the capability of the cancer cells to reject drugs (such as taxol) via MDR mechanisms.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by mar60 on Wed Sep 02, 2015 06:28 AM
Quote | ReplySomeone has send me a private mesage but i cannot find it anymore  can you please send it again??
Quote | Reply

### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Caddy on Wed Sep 02, 2015 06:36 AM
Quote | ReplyI suspect it might be a bit more complicated than that, J! But it's a nice thought.

However, it's a wasp, not a bee. Thus potentially answering a question that has always puzzled me: what's the point of a wasp?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34115112
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Wed Sep 02, 2015 07:45 AM

Quote | Reply

On Sep 02, 2015 10:36 AM Caddy wrote:

I suspect it might be a bit more complicated than that, J! But it's a nice thought.

However, it's a wasp, not a bee. Thus potentially answering a question that has always puzzled me: what's the point of a wasp?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34115112 "" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34115112 " target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34115112
That is funny indeed. So now Caddy you know what is the point of a wasp :D
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by JRW07 on Wed Sep 02, 2015 09:04 AM
Quote | ReplyI thought you guys might find this info interesting.  It is very important to further enhancing the immune response.  It has the potential to be effective on most cancer types.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150831120316.ht
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Wed Sep 02, 2015 09:55 AM

Quote | Reply

On Sep 02, 2015 1:04 PM JRW07 wrote:

I thought you guys might find this info interesting.  It is very important to further enhancing the immune response.  It has the potential to be effective on most cancer types.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150831120316.ht m"" target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150831120316.ht  target="\_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150831120316.ht
This is very interesting. It seems it could be good to combine with e.g. 3BP or Sal or anyother effective treatment. There are suggestions that alone would only stop the cancer growth. Was any of the anti-CD47 applied on humans so far? Or do we have a feeling on what would be the effective dose?
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Caddy on Wed Sep 02, 2015 09:56 AM
Quote | ReplyFascinating, thanks for sharing. Is this the same approach as that used by Prof Vogel on Dendritic cells in Germany?
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Danielus on Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:11 AM

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On Sep 02, 2015 1:56 PM Caddy wrote:

Fascinating, thanks for sharing. Is this the same approach as that used by Prof Vogel on Dendritic cells in Germany?
I havent hear so far that dr. Vogl would use this one. But maybe dr. w knows more?
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Caddy on Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:24 AM
Quote | ReplyI think therein lies the problem. It looks like it could be at least 5-10 years (and millions of $$$) before this could reach bedsides. Most of the people on this thread don't have the patience for that.
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by lilyt on Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:25 AM
Quote | ReplyHello dear members of the forum,

I heard about a case of undiffentiated small carcinoma with unknown origin.At  first there was a tumour on the side of neck but after they cut it it turned out it wasnt the primary cancer. PET scanner didnt show anything and the person is about to be MRI-ed. Its currently suspected the origin is in the lung, the cancer is agressive and the person feels worse from day to day. I am a bit worried I mentioned 3BP to those peope, though I have heard it most likely wont work on non PET visible scans. I told them so too. They will most likely give it a try though. I want to know, do you know if there would be some chance for something more effective in this case? Thank you very very much!
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by Caddy on Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:30 AM
Quote | ReplyMar60,

It was me. I will re-send.

All best,
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### RE: Anyone used 3bp (3-bromopyruvate)?

by jetsparkle on Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:53 AM
Quote | ReplyI have had the dendritic cell vaccine used on me a couple of times--but not in Europe.   However, I cannot for a certainty vouch for its efficacy since not sure how accomplished and professionally the procedure was done "south of the border".  Have valid and serious doubts about their  procedures and possible contamination.  Been there, done that...

Would think that any dendritic vaccine procedure available right now may be found in some German clinics--and would trust that as being superior for usage.

Was reading this same article last night--think dendritic vaccine very viable for cancer patients.  Believe in the U.S. they are trying to formulate various versions of it at different places (Stanford, etc.) also--but still in immature stage or in early trials.  At one time, trying to recall, read an article about it discussing  the problem of patenting such a vaccine.

Generally though, to my knowledge, the dendritic vaccine is made specifically right now from each individual's blood--not a patented vaccine procedure.

Kindly correct me on all of these thoughts, if necessary--a bit befuddled this morning!
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