Screen Writing - Story Anatomy

The Anatomy of Story

[Music]

I'd like to welcome to show john troubie

thank you so much for being on the show

John great to be here Alex I've been a

big fan of your stuff for a long time

and I'm glad that you can get to bring

some knowledge bonds to the indie film

hustle drive yeah I'm a I'm a big fan of

indie film and so anytime I can help out

in that area promote the making of good

indie films I think that's the the

really the future of the film business

and so anytime I can help out there I'm

happy to do it

thanks again so let's get to it I wanted

to ask you first and foremost a very

strong question why do most people fail

at screenwriting I think the reason most

people fail at screenwriting is they

don't know what the screenwriting

business is looking for emphasize that

word business and they don't have the

proper training to provide what the

screenwriting business is looking for so

you have a massive mismatch between what

people are writing and what Hollywood or

indie film producers want to buy and

this is why 99.9% of screenwriters fail

in in trying to get their work out to

the world you know we know that the film

business and television are very

competitive

relatively few films are made but you

have much less chance of succeeding in

that environment if you don't know the

kind of story and the kind of story

techniques that create a script that

they want to buy that's a very good

point and it's something that I agree

with you 100

it's I mean and it's it goes to a deeper

issue of that that writers tend not to

you know they're so involved in the

writing and we can all understand that

because we're hiking is incredibly hard

very much we've all been the writing

that they fail to say see that it's

first of all a business if you want yet

if you want to just write for yourself

that's fantastic but if you want to sell

what you work what you write pen you've

got to first of all understand that it

is a business and understand what the

business is looking for now in your

opinion what are the building blocks of

a good story well there's there's a ton

of techniques for good story and you

know I've tried over all my years of

teaching story classes to go into those

in great detail and try to specific as

possible I'm I'm a real stickler about

technique you'll that a lot of times

writers read these books about

screenwriting and they're very

theoretical esoteric and we all nod our

head and we say yeah I think I know what

you're talking about when it comes time

to the blank page like you know that

blinking cursor is the worst thing in

the world

is that exactly and if you don't have

real specific techniques to get you

through that to take you step-by-step

through the Deborah process you've got

no chance but but really the I I like to

bring all of those techniques under one

umbrella which is the umbrella of narrow

Drive the single most important element

in popular storytelling not just in

screenwriting

but in worldwide storytelling it every

meet its narrative Drive and most

writers do not first of all do not know

how important narrative Drive is

especially in Hollywood screenwriting

and if they do know the importance they

don't know how to execute

and when I say narrative drive first of

all a lot of people do not understand

the term what narrative drive it is is a

story with non-stop excitement

excitement

it's the forward propulsion of the story

that makes the reader that script rear

want to turn the page and this is by far

the most important thing when it comes

to selling your script by always like to

say Hollywood has three things above all

that they're looking for in a script

they're Drive narrative Drive and

they're okay I'm trying to get across

the importance of this concept and so

it's this forward propulsion of the

story so what makes it a page-turner

now there are a lot of specific

techniques that go into getting there to

drive but then this brings in the other

point that I was just making which is

that writers typically do not get the

proper training to get that narrative

draw and we all know what I'm talking

about

basically writers in you know the

current screenwriting world use two

fundamental methods the first is three X

direction and the second is hero's

journey

now I contend that if you're using

three-act and a hero's journey that's

great if you're a beginner that's great

when you're first starting to write

because you face that overwhelming

pressure that overwhelming difficulty of

climbing this mountain say I don't know

how to do it and along comes to react

and hero's journey and says oh it's real

simple but there's just three acts and

two or three plot points and so on and

it makes makes you feel you can do and

there's real value but in my opinion

these these things these two is

structure methods will really call it

you back in if you want to be a

profession and there's a number of

reasons for it first of all everybody

uses things

which means that all those scripts are

this thing and it means that all those

scripts are boring because we've seen it

a thousand times on war now the first

and most important thing in terms of

setting yourself apart from everybody

else which is the key to being a

professional writer it's establishing

your unique story brand you can't do

that if you're writing a script that

looks like everybody else's script

you've got to come across with something

that's really unique that only you can

provide that producer that Artemus they

have to you know question a question ask

though is when you apply the hero's

journey to multiple big you know almost

all the big-budget films and big budget

blockbusters they all seem to line up

but are you saying that there's other

things within that structure that's

working that menacing absolutely there's

a number there's a number of things and

it's a great question let me get into

first of all you can say the same bat

three act structure you just say well

you know look at all these blockbuster

films they all break into you know three

acts apparently well - which I always

reply you can divide anything into three

parts that doesn't mean it's going to

help you write it what people understand

it is that three act structure was

invented by a story analyst to analyze a

script after it was written and so it

was simply an aid to say okay you know

this happens in the first act

this happens in the second act and so on

which is simply a glorified way of

saying beginning middle and end the same

thing is true about hero's journey there

yes there are certain beats that you see

from the hero's journey that are in most

blockbuster films but that doesn't tell

you that all the other techniques that

that writer had to know and apply to

make that a script that first of all

which sell and second of all would have

blockbuster potential there's another

point too

what people don't tell you when they're

talking about 3x it's you me and you're

talking about the hero's journey

is that this is not a story structure

that applies to all stories the the

writers journey applies when you're

writing a myth story and very

specifically when you're writing a male

myth warrior story right now you look at

these blockbuster films a lot of them in

fact the vast majority of them are male

warrior myths stories and the reason for

that is that Hollywood is very conscious

of the fact that there are certain

genres that travel the world better than

other genres the genre that travels the

world better than any other form that is

popular in all countries around the

world regardless of language regardless

of culture is a myth story so Hollywood

because they sell to a worldwide market

they like to use that form and I always

tell people and I talk heavily about

genres because your honors are really

the key to your success in this industry

that if you want the best chance of

writing a blockbuster story that will

sell the Hollywood at least one of the

genres that it should be based on his

myth because it is a best traveled story

for in there is the problem was number

one that as I mentioned just a moment

ago those beats of the hero's journey

don't give you anywhere close to the

techniques you need to know to write a

successful male warrior myth that's

different from everything else we've

seen before you can't just write another

Star Wars and expect to sell that right

but the other thing is what if you're

not writing a male warrior myth whether

you're writing a love story a detective

story a thriller and so on the hero's

journey does not work for that and if

you try to impose that template on those

genres you're gonna have big problems

you and here's the point

each genre is a specialized plot

and so what each does is each genre has

anywhere from 8 to 15 specialized plot

beats that you have to know and you have

to hit those beats and even more

importantly you have to twist those

beats to do that platform in a unique

way we haven't seen before

so even if you were to write a hero's

journey myth story if you don't know how

to twist those beats to do it in a

special way it's not gonna sell it's not

gonna even come close

again you've you've got we've got to

bring in originality to what is a

generic way of telling stories so but my

basic point is that these techniques

he's Beth basic structural methods are

good when you're first starting out but

you've got to go way past that if you

want to work at the professional level

meaning you are one of maybe 1/2 of 1%

who is working in that arena and that's

why I put so much emphasis on the

techniques of narrative drive regardless

of the genre regardless of the media

these are the elements that really make

a difference in your store now when we

talked about coming on your show I

decided to put together a story

improvement worksheet that would have a

number of these techniques in there and

a place for writers to actually write

what how they execute that technique on

worksheet and one of the first ones that

is in there is the desire line of the

hero what the hero wants in the story

and it's interesting Alex I do my story

class all over the world and when I give

the class outside of the United States I

always ask the students what do you

think is the main reason that Hollywood

films are the most popular movies in the

world

I fall and they give me two answers

invariably no matter what country I'm in

it's all the same same two answers the

first is you have all the movie stars

okay and that gives me the opportunity

to tell them that Hollywood has not been

a movie star based business for 20 years

the only guys that don't know that it's

no longer ain't a movie star based

business is the movie stars

it's a story based business and more

specifically it is a genre based

business the other answer they always

give me is you spent so much money on

special effects and of course they point

to all the big blockbuster films with

all that money that was spent on special

effects that gives me the opportunity to

point out to them all the movies that

bombed at the box office that spent a

ton of money on special effects because

that has nothing to do with it and then

I get to tell them the real reason the

number one reason why Hollywood movies

make more money than any other film in

world is in the script and it is the

desire line of the hero in Hollywood

movies that you have single hero who has

a very specific desire that he goes

after with incredible intensity because

what that desire line does is give you

the spine of the story and then it's all

about will that character succeed in

getting the goal and it doesn't matter

what country I live I want to see that

character succeed and it's that desire

one that very intense specific desire

that gets me onboard the thrill ride and

that's what Hollywood movies really are

in terms of when we're talking about

popular movies right now there's not

necessarily a case with indie films but

we're talking about Hollywood mainstream

films they are a thrill ride your

equivalent

a thrill ride what what used to be known

as the the e-ticket ride and Disneyland

alright right and and the way they get

it I think there are a lot of techniques

again but the first way they do it is

with a single here of with the driving

desire now you might say what women well

what about the Avenger what about these

you know these teens that just surely

been so on guess what all they've done

is that taken a number of euros turn

them into a team and that team becomes

this single desirable that the single

hero and the team goes after a single

goal with incredible intensive and in

the in the worksheet that I've put

together

I have in there there's a test that you

do in your own school to see if you have

a single desire line that is specific

enough to carry the weight of the entire

story and that tested there must be a

moment at the near the end of the story

when the audience knows yes or no the

hero either got the goal or they lost

the goal

now obviously nine out of ten times in

Hollywood movies they're going to get

the goal but structurally it is not

necessary that they get to go but what

is important to remember is this spine

this goal of the hero is the thing that

you hang every other story element on

top of which is white when you're

writing that script that is the first

thing you've got to figure out because

everything else will come off of that

now what are so so what makes a

character interesting to an audience is

it just this this Drive or is what what

what are some elements that make

characters interesting great question

one of the reasons is the particular

desire that they have because when a

when a character has a very specific

goal especially if it's a difficult goal

to achieve that's one of the ways the

audience identify

with that character because if the

character wants the goal that much and I

know precisely what goal they want then

I want them to win that go to so I get

invested in it as well when I want to

get my story class I talk about the

desire line is is the tracks of the

Train and once we set up that goal at

the end of the journey it's like the

audience gets on the train with the hero

and we all go after it together so

that's the first thing there's a second

element that is extremely important in

creating a character that the audience

cares about and that is that we have to

give them a weakness at least one major

flaw that is holding them back from

success not just success in getting that

goal it's holding them back from success

in life this is a flaw that is so

serious that it is ruining their life

and it's actually established even

before you establish the desire line of

the hero now a lot of people hear that

it's counterintuitive they say well you

know I don't but why would I want to see

a guy with a problem a weakness like

that well it is a real interesting test

where you see this go on you see the

power of this concept for many years

James Bond franchise was the most

popular franchise in the history of them

uh-huh massively successful when we got

up into the 20s a number of Bond films

it started to get a little tired right

and it essentially became each film

became basically a stunt film only

question in that film was is this set of

stunts gonna be better than the ones

that were in the last box

okay absolutely zero story quality

and then they decided to make Casino

Royale which was the origin film of

James Bond and they did one thing above

all else that made all the difference in

the world

they gave James Bond who until that

point had been a superhero and in fact

is the most most popular superhero in

history they gave him a both a

psychological and a moral flaw what they

did was they took his strength right

besides being this you know incredible

you know intelligence guy who does all

these action stunts he's physically very

good but they took his great strength

he's a ladies man it's the ultimate

ladies match they turned that into a

flaw and they made it a deadly flaw

because James Bond fooling around with

women especially married women in that

film he gets a married woman killed and

all of a sudden we see that this lady's

man quality is actually built on a deep

vlog that's been there for a long time

since he was young and it represents a

coldness an inability to love and so

what do they do in that picture

they have James Bond fall in love oh my

god can you imagine James Bond in love

and of course the lover turns out to be

one of his opponents so you get this

massive betrayal so the point is by

setting up this great flaw will

psychological and moral in this

character instead of making the

character less popular which is what

they'd been afraid of because the

conventional wisdom in Hollywood for

decades was when you have an action hero

they've got to be perfect they've got to

be higher the bridge muscle-bound right

well exactly and instead they were first

they said no we're gonna give them flaws

and guess what that made James Bond far

more popular and you know why is because

Casino Royale was a great story

they was

excellent and and that's the difference

and and so the two main things that

you're looking and again there are many

other techniques but the two most

important we're caring for a character

and and by the way this is this again

goes against conventional wisdom most

writers when they're creating their

characters they they basically try to

come up with a list of traits a

characteristics you know what is their

job how much money did they make how to

dress what's their favorite color you

know it goes on and on well these are

all superficial and make virtually no

difference in terms of the connection

between the audience and the character

by far the two most important things to

establish in that character and you do

it right at the beginning of the story

is what is their great flaw and what do

they want and if you do that you've got

ninety percent of the viewers right

there now there's a movie that I always

use as a reference as as I argue one of

the one of the best written movies of

all time Shawshank Redemption yeah which

is it's fascinated me because I was in

high school when it came out and at that

time I thought you know junk Lafont down

was the greatest actor of all time

so back in the day when you were kids

but that movie cut through all of that

and even at that moment myself my group

of friends everyone just loved that

movie and there was something so primal

in the storytelling that it's now

considered one of the greatest films

ever made but it took a while for people

to catch up to it

what what do you think is the key to

that specific film with Andy Dufresne

and his journey I'd love to hear you

take on why you think that story

resonates so powerfully with audiences

around the world well I agree with it's

a great choice it's a terrific film

terrific story and and if not

surprisingly there are many story

elements that are going into that

success one of the reasons that that it

was overlooked in terms of how great it

was time

is because they do it so effortlessly

it's like Michael Jordan playing

basketball well you figure well guys

just got great physical skills okay you

don't have any idea of the kind of

technique that is sitting underneath

those skills the great writers will do

that so you know again there's there's

tons of reasons you have a terrific main

character you have the use of which is

which is a you know a lot of people

don't even consider this as part of the

success in fact it goes against

conventional wisdom which is that the

that it has a storyteller probably

separation and narration according to

McKee is horrible yeah you're not

supposed to do that that's missing is it

complete nonsense right it's complete

some of the greatest Hollywood films

ever have narration in it we're sober

narration of course oh yeah when

voiceover narration is used to hide

mistakes in the story and because when

they made the film they screwed it up

and so now they have to patch it with

this voiceover yeah then then you've got

a big problem with voiceover narration

what a story or anything like that they

don't stick in there sir exactly but if

if it's part of the story structure from

the beginning if it's there for a reason

then it can really kick up a certain

story can kick it up to another level

which it did in this case because notice

that we don't just really care about in

we care about the the voiceover narrator

I can't remember her character's name

red red exactly of course Margaret

laughs and and and that because we're

coming at it through from his point of

view third person point of view it also

hooks us with much less screen time into

liking red and and and another big part

of it is the friendship between them

white guy black guy right there's it's

not it did it's not you know Chi hit you

over the head over it yeah but you can

bet that that is a big part of the

success of that story in terms of making

us feel good that these two guys succeed

now who's the who's the main character

of that movie is it red or is it as Andy

well this is really interesting because

because one of these I talked about my

advanced story class yes that when you

have a storyteller the storyteller is

the true main character of the story

right and which indicates with that read

is actually the main character and if

you track the structure beats of that

story you see that he hits all those

structure beats that make him the main

character but it's a it's a very similar

structure to the Great Gatsby huh Nick

is talking about Gatsby now when people

talk about think about the Great Gatsby

to think well Gatsby is obviously the

main character ex-truck sleaze not

Nick's the main character and one of the

interesting things that can't remember

that the director has over dude who did

the most recent gets Baz Luhrmann

exactly um one of the things he did was

increase considerably the storyteller

frame that Nick has on screen much more

than in Nam and that's because the

journey the psychological and moral

journey that's going on there it's not

Gatsby Gatsby basically Falls and we

feel sorry that he does because he was

you know he's basically cheating but the

guy who makes the journey in the story

is Nick and and Baz Luhrmann understood

that but but so so that's another

important element of Shawshank

Redemption I would contend that the most

important is it has a great plot Oh God

so it's so beautifully written Frank

Darabont was so good just terrific and

and Alex this is something that is so

important because I tell I tell

everybody in my classes

the single biggest problem that writers

have in screenwriting and every other

story medium today is they don't know

how to plot it's not character it's not

dialogue its plot is that it's that

different than structure it is different

than structure it's closely connected to

structure but it's different from

structure and let me let me explain plot

has more techniques that go into a good

one then all of the other story skills

combined that's not even close and the

the problem with it it's not only is

plot extremely complicated to do as a

writer it's very difficult to teach and

here's the reason most people think

about plot as the character overcoming a

series of obstacles of course of the

story and what that means is they think

of it in a tactical way in the sense of

they think of it as these individual

moments when the hero overcomes an

obstacle and basically especially if

you're using hero's journey what you do

is you simply string a series of

obstacles that he overcomes along the

way well big mistake what you've just

done is committed what I consider to be

the cardinal sin of storytelling which

is a cardinal sin of plotting which is

you're hitting the same beat it's you

repeating the same beat because even

though that might be a different

opponent that you are overcoming at each

obstacle

it's basically what's happening there is

the same basic action and so you string

too many of those together and you get

an episodic plot a boring plot now how

do we contrast that would contrast that

to a grand plot where all of the

obstacles and opposition are connected

under the surface and designed in such a

way that this opposition builds over the

course of the story and what a real

great plot is instead of coming at it

from the tactical point of view you have

to come at it from the strategy point of

view because a plot is a grand strategy

that the opponent and the author used to

put the hero in the greatest possible

trouble

so instead of looking at each of these

moments as a single event you have to

look at your plot as this grand sequence

that where all of these elements are

connected together most of them under

the surface now that's very hard to do

it's also very hard to teach which is I

went people for example they they do the

euros journey or the three-act structure

and so on they don't get this training

so of course they're not gonna be able

to do that and what do they do they

execute these simple structures they

think you know I'm doing what the books

tell me to do and they and they don't

come up with a great plot and they guess

what they think what must be my fault I

have to tell well it's not the fact that

you don't have the talent it's the fact

that the tool that you're using is not

advanced enough to give you an advanced

level plot and what what plot really is

is it's made up of a number of

components I mention them a little while

ago the first and most important which

is the desire line sure

in order to hang this sequence of

opposition's that puts the euro in the

greatest possible trouble you have to

hang it on a spot so that's the goal

that the euro has and we can take him

from beginning to end so it's kind of

like what Hitchcock is in most of his

big movies is he has that MacGuffin and

the character trying to get that

MacGuffin and it's just a strong need

and everything is dangled and hung on

that very strong narrative exactly

exactly

MacGuffin is simply a term for a desire

line where it's not that important

whether the character gets the goal or

not but we have to have a spine to hang

everything else on if you don't have a

goal to go forward there's no

right right and there's no opposition

because this is concept of the plot as I

mentioned right at the beginning you

have to start the desire line because

everything comes off of that but another

thing that I haven't in the the story

improvement worksheet that I put

together for your people is has to do

with the opposition into you know the

desire line you can't come up with the

opponent and you don't know exactly who

they are because and this has to do with

a structural definition of opponent a

lot of writers get this wrong right they

think the opponent is the villain he's

the bad guy okay well sometimes he is a

villain but sometimes he's not that has

nothing to do with structurally what

makes him a pump an opponent is a

character who wants to prevent the hero

from getting his goal period so by that

definition opponent could be a better

human being and a hero could be and in

this is one of the things we see in

advanced storytelling oftentimes the

opponent is a better human being but

what makes him report is that he's on

the other side of the goal and in fact

he is competing for the with the hero

for the same goal because this puts the

hero an opponent into a necessary

opposition in other words they have to

fight and now you hear that and you

think well that's kind of obvious right

but believe me when I tell you that see

loads of example here the your own

opponent do not want the same goal and

and the writer then doesn't understand

why can't I not create conflict and

build conflict it's because if you have

a yeren opponent who were going after a

different goal it is entirely possible

for them to go after those goals without

coming into direct conflict the only way

you can make sure that they come into

direct conflict and that that conflict

builds over the course of the story is

if they want the same thing and then

they're gonna fight about it and that

fight is gonna get nastier and nastier

and nastier until you come up you have a

final battle at the end which decides

the issue

so this then is you get this opposition

which then is the second major element

to great narrative drop so with and I'll

go back to Shawshank the main villain of

that of that movie

among the other minor villains is the

warden who's stopping yeah and II from

just living let alone they try to escape

he was they had no chance of escape he's

just like being a human being so what is

the goal what are the same goals because

and II obviously wants to has different

goals than than he does but yet they

conflict so much so what is that how is

that guy can you explain that well again

great question a lot of people and then

they when they hear that the yearning

opponent have to compete for the same

goal they like they'll go to a detective

story and say wait a minute don't

compete from the same goal the the bad

guy is committed a murder is trying to

get away with it and the detectives

trying to figure out who did it you're

Moriarty and Sherlock Holmes right now

and and then when the writer tries to

write their own detective story again

they don't understand why can't I make

this thing work why can I make this

opposition in this work it's because

that's not what a detective story is

they're really fighting about detective

and the and the killer are fighting

about whose story will be believed and

what they do is each takes the same set

of physical clues and creates a story

Tek the stories about competing artistic

stories it's not about you know the

killer and the and then that the dead

guy and all the the you know looking for

and asking questions and finding out who

did it's about which story will be

believed the villains were the heroes

and so what you in this this needs to

one of the key rules about good

detective writing is every physical clue

that you put in the story has to have at

least two possible interpretations this

is one reason why detect stories have

the most complex plot of any genre there

and by the way just it is to go back to

an earlier point why if you try to do a

detective story using the euros journey

good luck you will know you won't know

and actually I've never actually even

thought about it that way but you're

right because I've I've been in the camp

of hero's journey hero's journey 3x

structure and I know there's four or

five AK structure and in other Raiders

of the Lost Ark is what five struck five

five acts

some have said that yeah I mean I yeah i

think i think even trying to do that

you've already lost the battle because

it's totally arbitrary example I was on

I was on a panel once with three other

fairly well-known story story gurus and

I used that term loosely because they

despised the word but but one of the

teachers up there said this this person

is a very strong advocate of three extra

set she acknowledged the fact that

Shakespeare wrote in five acts and she

said what Shakespeare really meant to do

was to write in three acts okay so now

she's reinterpret taking that

Shakespeare yeah exactly

okay you see the absurdity yes I got you

I got you yes it's a mouse mouse

throwing stones at alliant got it

exactly but but it's also the absurdity

of trying to divide into numbers whether

it's three parts four parts

five parts eight parts it you can divide

any unit into any number of pieces the

question is does the dividing of that

give you techniques to actually write it

in such a way that it feels like it's

all of one piece that bills steadily to

a climax at the end and my point is that

certainly something is simplistic as a

three-part division is not going to get

you anywhere close to the ability to

write a Shawshank Redemption

it's just it's just it there's no

technique there it's like what Gertrude

Stein said about about Oakland there's

no there there there's nothing you can

use right and as I said at the beginning

I'm all about the practical I'm all

about specific techniques that if I do

this in the story I will get this

emotional effect in the audience so you

so you can you're absolutely right you

can't you know you could you can cut

anything into as many parts as you want

but at the end of the day it's all about

the story it's all about how it's moving

that that drive through it exactly

exactly it's all about how are you how

are the all the elements contributing to

the overall narrative drive of that

story because the audience isn't looking

at it and say well that was a great

first act right yeah please get up it's

guys good yeah all you know only in LA

right in LA but but no they're sitting

there they're on this reel ride they

want to propulsion they want the speed

right and so they don't know that

techniques that are going there they

don't know that techniques that are

putting them there but we as writers

have got to know those techniques so we

created so like thinking about a screen

or a like Chris Nolan who is obviously a

master at what he doesn't and his

storytelling craft you take a script

like memento or it's section which has

it's just layer on top but it makes my

head hurt

right thinking about the layers that are

on that and how he's able to bring or

pulp fiction I mean that's another one

that was just this yep you could break

that into three act structure you know

cook your good won't do for you what

would it do for you I to break it into

the elements that really made a

difference which are so for example I

love the fact that you did your time

that Chris no Chris Nolan is brother or

the number one in terms of the ability

to create plot in popular movie today

number one they are plot masked

and their biggest problem that no one

else in the world has is they're so good

at plot that they create too much plot

sometimes sometimes they sometimes do

yeah they sometimes do but I always tell

writers is we should all have that

problem right

I don't want to get too big if I go to

the gym right I want to get too shredded

you know I say if when when you can

write plot like Chris no and then come

to me and we'll Wilton will give you a

few things that'll fix it I don't I

don't think you're gonna be coming to me

I really don't but no I mean you look at

the way that he structures these stories

in a way he uses plot there you can see

if you break it down you can see the

grand strategy that the author and the

main opponent are using let me give you

a perfect example of it in the Dark

Knight greatest superhero movie ever met

I would agree with you on that and there

is no come there is no competition for

that it is the best if you look at the

plot of that story it is it is is it

easy it's very deep it's very

complicated yes probably a little too

complicated but I'm fine with that but

but but if you if you break it down

structurally you will find that this

plot is built on a sequence of tests

moral tests that the Joker

forces Batman to solve and these tests

become more and more difficult intense

yeah intense leading to the final test

with where we have the two ships o or he

used the classic key from game theory

the classic prisoner's dilemma in order

to create this scene and what and why is

the Joker

we're seeing Batman through these tests

besides the fact that the greatest

opponent will test the hero to the

deepest possible level it's because he's

trying to prove his view of humanity

which is that man is simply another

animal with a thin veneer of

civilization and I'm gonna scratch that

thin veneer and show you he's just a

dog-eat-dog animal like everybody else

like every other creature and he happens

to be wrong but what he does is and what

what the Nolan's do there is by giving

Batman's a series of more complex moral

tests each time they're tightening the

Vice they're making okay all right you

solve that one now let's turn it the

screws a little more now how you gonna

do this one and this is the kind of this

and this also points up the essential

difference between plot and structure

because structure is simply plot that

forces the hero to deal with his

weakness that very first step that I

mentioned that you established for the

character because the weakness both

psychological and moral this weakness is

des is the driving force it is deep if

first thoughts

everything that is what this reason he

designed to solve and what how do we

solve it we forced the arrow to go on a

plot journey go after a goal

what's pressure on him at an increasing

rate until he is forced to confront that

weakness and he neither solves that

weakness or he fails and that happens at

the end of the story and it happens

right after he accomplishes or fails to

accomplish his goal can you even give

another example of a movie that does

what you just said because I'm thinking

I'm rattling my head like where have I

seen in a movie and I know there existed

but I can't think of one that exactly

that happens that the villain is testing

the testing the hero again and again and

again to the file crescendo of the fight

of finality I'm assuming Moriarty and

Sherlock Holmes at a certain point do

that but I mean you know but start with

that I mean it's it's wide why was

Moriarty create it comes down to what I

consider to be one of the most important

of all story principles which is the

hero is only as good as the person he

fights yeah you want a great hero you

have to have a great opponent and you

have to have an opponent who is equal to

that hero that's even at the beginning

more powerful than the hero is that's

and now it will go off on a tangent here

but I think that's one of the reasons

why DC is having such a difficult time

with telling stories other than Batman

because Batman is the old Batman is the

only Marvel character in the DC Universe

the highest flaws but everyone else is a

god so that's why Superman is such a

difficult don't look character to the

right for you had absolutely nailed the

difficulty of any superhero franchise

and and and is why Batman Dark Knight is

the best superhero movie ever for a lot

of reasons but the main reason he's got

a psychological and moral flaw and he's

human if you have a superhero who is

god that's one like Superman where he's

just a straight-up super fine guy what

do you got what are you gonna do with

that

I'll throw Kryptonite at him again and

again and that's and that is a physical

that's simply a physical object that can

attack attack him yeah Lex Luthor never

was never was a channel I don't think it

doesn't have the like the Joker Batman

dynamic doesn't have the same thing as

this Superman Lex Luthor because Lex

Luthor argue arguably is his his Joker

but but it was just like god the movies

but look at but look at the difference

right there Lex Luthor is of course

Moriarty right and and and what we're

trying to do is create a villain who is

in a high intellectual level who is

capable of challenging that superhero to

the greatest possible degree right and

that's fine except that if the superhero

is a god without a moral or really even

a psychological flaw and then only way

that that villain can can test him is on

the intellectual level is can I create

crime that you can't deal with that you

can't solve in someone it's totally

empty it's like okay I'm Superman gonna

succeed or not well obviously he's gonna

succeed so you know is just spinning

wheels and that's right that's why

that's why in until they do a superhero

movie of another superhero who has the

kind of moral and psychological

complexity of a Batman nobody else is

gonna come close to that film well the

only one I can even think of that I

remember is the Superman to back in the

day with triage of Donner's one that was

a great example of like okay you've got

Superman he's the Boy Scout well what do

you do you give him three super people

to fight and they gets tested along the

way and then you take away his

superpowers now he's human so it's like

that dynamic was what its part one of

the best Superman stories told on Sun

and cinnamon do you agree

yeah and and and but but but let's take

this this story problem out to the

larger issue of if you're doing any

choice because Marvel has the same

problem oh yeah what Marvel's head has

been more successful than DC then DC

Comics and in our brothers however

they've got the same problem when you

have superheroes who are gods who cannot

be killed then what do you do what you

well the main thing you do is you try to

come up with a new villain that's really

really tough and he's really smart and

he can really test them ok but did that

debt again that gets repetitive real

fast and so what are what are the best

Marvel films they are films where they

take the team of these superheroes and

they put them in concert that's why a

guy like Joss Whedon when he when he

wrote I can't remember which we Avengers

they've invented but um why that was so

smart was he was coming from TV TV has

the best storytelling in the world today

by far it dish it is it has dwarfed film

in terms of quality and it has for the

last 15 years all right

one of the techniques one of the one of

the techniques that that he brought over

from television it was you when you have

a series and that's what these

franchises are you have a series you you

you have service the main characters so

for example you have ER you have five

leads right the the juice of the show

doesn't come from each patient anonymous

patient that comes in every week that we

help that we heal no it has to come from

the conflict within these these leaks

these leads are all part of a family but

we have to make them fight with each

other because that's where the juice is

that's exactly what Joss Whedon did when

he wrote The Avengers is he put the he

tried to create conflict among these

characters that we love were part of the

family that's why it was a better story

yeah he still had the outside opposition

still had to pay those dues but the

juice of it was in here can they can

they even get together long enough to

defeat the bad guy because which is a

much more powerful arguably than what

they

absolutely absolutely yeah that's why

it's something like Winter Soldier

Captain America winter soldiers part one

of the best Marvel movies I thought mm

because of the way they structured that

story and what those guys are doing

we're going off on a tangent but what

those guys did with the Civil War and

all that kind of stuff not what you said

it just just just took you dot that I

but it is precisely the same technique

it's we take our heroes we put them into

the main conflict that's what that's

what the audience loves to see because

they're characters that we've invested

in I don't care about this new opponent

he's just there to create the overall

jeopardy so then why did Civil War work

so well and become such a success and

Batman vs Superman was a colossal piece

of you know what Batman vs Superman as

soon as I heard that I said that's

clickbait it cannot work I don't care

what they do this cannot work okay

because first of all you have to you

have to convince me that these two

fighters for justice are going to come

to hate each other so much that they are

going to come into conflict and it's a

conflict that I even believe to the

death to the death right I don't believe

that from point one okay so they're

already have got me with a massive

problem of disbelief oh I'll tell you

what my wife once you heard that she's

like that's ridiculous

Sabrina kill them in five in a second he

just does over and done it's over that's

the other reason that's the other reason

you're going you got a human against a

god right and no matter how much tech

you might have that's right Gilligan

that's right no matter how smart Batman

may be it's not going to happen this is

this is the same problem why the the the

matrix one was so much better than two

and three because as soon as he becomes

a superhero of God in a matrix to the

concept that this guy's has any jeopardy

at all he's gone

you know I always I always find that you

know you look at these superhero movies

when they when you

the supervillain and the superhero have

a fistfight or two superheroes have a

fistfight you know and they one guy gets

punched and he knocks down three

buildings you know and yeah yes it's

like it's just a total waste of time

because nobody for a second thinks that

anybody's gonna be hurt at all

there's no jeopardy no there's no

additional jeopardy that's why a movie

like Logan you could feel that there was

jeopardy dangerous and finally you know

with Wolverine that he was sick they

could do all this guy stuff and there

was jeopardy and then Batman vs. the

Joker you know at any moment Batman can

get hurt yeah and he does and and the

people he loves can get hurt right and

you had that great you had the great

scene in the jail I mean Batman locks

the door mm-hmm he had and this is just

another example of the Joker testing him

morally because she's saying same to

Batman okay Batman how far are you gonna

go to get to give you the information

that you need in order to save your

girlfriend and in heart and so he has to

basically break the law practically

killed the guy and then even then the

and smart located and it's just I mean

it's just it's just brilliant from from

you know minute one that question

without question now you were saying

something earlier though about

television being so much better than

then film today why do you think that is

because I agree with you 100% but what

what is the reasoning you think it's

it's all in the story structure and what

what you've seen in the last 15 to 20

years is TV moving from a generic

episodic art form that is not even an

art form to the storytelling medium

that's probably the greatest

storytelling medium that we have and it

comes from the fact that until about 20

years ago

the story structure of an episode of

television was a was based on about 44

minutes where the same story structure

beats were repeated weekend weekend so

you begin the story by establishing the

problem for example the crime and then

the goal is to solve a crime and then

they solve the crime in the last scene

right right story and then next week we

repeat those same beats we just come up

with a difference so what you get is a

generic story telling that is not an

artful mm-hm

now basically with The Sopranos I mean

their logic oh really it really started

this about 10 years before that but but

we're really changed was with The

Sopranos because with the Sopranos we

have the serial story structure instead

of what used to be known as the

standalone story structure and alone an

episode as the standalone story and we

repeat that each time yeah serial what

you have is you have first of all you

tend to have multiple main characters

each one has desires but instead of the

desire getting salt in each episode

these are desires that extend over an

entire season this then allows you to

have opposition within the team of main

characters and this opposition doesn't

get solved at the end of one episode it

extends over an entire season so what

that means is that the standard of

quality that we judge the art form is

not the episode it's the season and all

of the great shows are serial story

structure and this serial story

structure goes back to the novels of the

mid eighteen hundreds especially Charles

Dickens all right we've basically gone

back to the future but what does that

mean it means we have on television we

have a canvas that is ten times larger

then

we get in a feature film that that's why

film has no chance to compete with on

that level and so and and and what that

means is that we have far more

complexity of character and more

complexity of plot so is that why

there's so much more spectacle to try to

hide that there's lack of story in in in

Hollywood movies that is absolutely

absolutely in its and it's based on a

false assumption when we talked about

earlier that oh what what gets him into

the seats is all the special effects all

the spectacle yeah that's when I'm when

I'm seeing a superhero movie I better

have some of that no question about it

but that's not what gets him into the

seat the the the other reason that TV

has far surpassed film is the economic

model because the Hollywood studios are

designed to appeal to a worldwide

audience for each film they have to make

a very narrow form of story that appeals

essentially to and anywhere from 15 to

25 to 30 years of age and world walk

okay what does that mean that means myth

warrior superhero stories right that

were that's where we can make our money

that's why I always tell writers in

unless you're willing to write a

superhero story Hollywood doesn't want

to talk to you they all they want is

blockbusters but what's the difference

with television television fractured

from the three channels right hundreds

of channels and Netflix and Amazon all

making narrowcast

I don't have to appeal when I make

Breaking Bad or Mad Men I don't have to

appeal to fifteen-year-old boy I am

officially to a very intelligent segment

of the population and it's also a much

more select audience than even at the

major networks used to be you had to

have a hit and then on a network show

you had a 20 million view

right madmen at the peak of its

popularity this is in my opinion the

greatest TV show in history and

certainly one of the top five and it had

three million years Wow when you when

you don't have to appeal to that

mediocre audience

that's in the middle you can do things

that that stretch that are not only

great examples in and of themselves will

work of art but they stretch the medium

of television to being a medium that is

at its highest art form and so what

you've seen really in the last 20 years

is the same thing that happened to

novels in about 17 the mid 1700s when it

became an art form it happened in movies

in the early 1900s when it became an art

form this happened at the beginning of

the century with television and what

we've seen is where they call it they

rightfully call it the golden age of

television and it's because the writing

is serial story structure and guess what

the other key factor writers control

television I absolutely despise the

auteur theory that says the director is

the author of the film I think it's one

of the biggest pieces nonsense ever

mm-hm and one of the ways you prove it

is look at the medium that has now come

under the control of writers writers run

it mm-hmm when you put writers in

control of a story medium guess what you

get great stories when you put producers

and directors in charge of a medium like

you get in film

guess what you get spectacle you get

generic storytelling and it does not it

doesn't reach the level of art I was

having dinner not too long ago

was one of the top film critics in the

country I don't want to mention his name

top Mill Creek what a Pulitzer Scott I

said to him does it bother you that you

are reviewing cells every day that are

primarily superhero films while

television

is going on and for 15 years has been

going on that has one great show after

another does that bother you says every

day of my life I could only imagine so

do you do did you have any tips for

writers to overcome the dreaded writer's

block

absolutely absolutely tell me writer's

block again is something that's highly

misunderstood okay

writers typically think that writer's

block comes from a psychological problem

that somebody has with their right

in fact writer's block is almost always

caused by a structural problem that they

have in their writing when you solve the

structural problem you get rid of the

block what happens is that a lot of

writers still go in in novel world is

called being app answer it's it's it's

plotting by the seat of your pants just

coming up with the plot as you go and

this is by the way the most common

mistake that amateur writers make and

it's them back tremendously from having

a chance to write at the professional

level they come up with an idea it's a

great idea they get so excited they

immediately start writing script papers

they write 15 20 pages write themselves

into a structural hole and they can't

get out and they have no idea how they

got there so they run into the block and

eventually they give up and then they

try it again they repeat the same

mistake with the next story idea until

they screw up enough story ideas that

they give up writing Itard right and and

and by the way they ties in with this in

one of the I think most dangerous pieces

of fiction that writers have been given

which is just get it on the page like

let's get it down you can fix it later

I used to give that recommendation

myself because

fighters block you know when clothes go

with it let it slow except that I found

after years of experience that it

doesn't flow forever flowing about page

15 and you can't get it to flow again

mm-hmm and so this is why I always say

no do your due diligence upfront do your

structural work upfront your you're

planning your outlining you're figuring

out the structural elements of your

unique story not the three-act type

stuff but I'm talking about the

structural elements of your unique

character and your unique plot get that

grand design figured out up front when

you have that grand design in front of

you which you then will be able to

adjust as you go you're not you're not

restricted to it you're not frozen to

but we have that grand design I

guarantee you will not hit writer's

block

now what is you said about amateur

writing what is the biggest difference

between a professional and an amateur

plot it's the ability to write an

intriguing surprising plot that not only

hits this the main genre beats of the

particular genre that author is working

in but twists the beats in a unique way

and and and here we have to step back

most writers don't even know that these

of the genre they're working and one of

the things I have in in the work sheet

it has to put these genres one of them

being that the most important marketing

strategy I talked about you got to write

for what Hollywood wants to buy and the

single most important marketing strategy

in in Hollywood film and television and

also in novels by the way is every film

that is made is a mix of at least two

typically three sometimes even four

shots it's the marketing strategy of

getting two for the price of one yours

was no single genre film out today all

right so you got to start with that and

and and let's say you know that as a

writer and you're mixing genres well

then you ran another problem if you

don't know how to meet that you end up

with a big story mess because each one

of those honors as it don't specialized

hero its own specialized opponent is a

predetermined it has anyone which one

has anywhere from 8 to 15 story beats

specialized plot beads that make that a

that particular genre for example one of

the plot beats that you get in a love

story is the first kiss right now if you

don't have a first kiss in your love

story guess what you're gonna fail right

right right but so so what writer do is

they try to mix these genres and they

end up with story chaos and so in and

again this is something that I've got in

the in the the story worksheet which is

which is you have got to then once you

know what the genres are you're using

you've got to make one of those genres

the primary genre because that that

gives you the foundation structure

including the main desire line that all

the other genres and plot beats are

going to be built on top of so I have a

good example I think of one that worked

well with combining genres which is

Logan which is a superhero mix of the

Western yeah basically mix with the

drama with mixed with the drama yeah

that's right and and that's one of the

reasons why it kicks it up to a higher

level than the normal superhero story is

because it because when you are doing

your your genres the and I said you got

to twist the genre the most important

strategy for twisting the genre beats is

to add drama elements family drama

elements and that's because what drama

does is it these are real characters

with real pain real problem and they are

not superheroes that you know they're

way up here they're gods and so on they

don't have any pieces and so on you

combine genre with drama you're gonna

have probably the most powerful drama

genre combination there is and low

is a perfect example of that now where

can you find an example where I went

over awry where they mix genres you're

like what happened could you say go back

to a superhero movie Suicide Squad is

that what was that a mixture of genres

that was a mixture of a bunch of stuff

yes but my sense is that the reason for

that failure was much more than just

they didn't know how to mix the genres

right my sense was that wasn't the the

main problem with that and it is to be

tied in with some of the things we

talked about in terms and now it's

interesting to look at what they were

trying to do they were trying to use the

technique I talked about before which is

what do you do when you have superheroes

to make them human and to make sure we

can identify with them more well we make

them really dark negative superheroes

mm-hmm and and that was a great idea the

problem is that what they were using is

there is a sub-genre called the suicide

mission story sure robe one is a suicide

mission story guardians of the galaxy 2

is a suicide one is a suicide mission

story um you know and this is by the way

the primary genre strategy that they use

when they're doing superhero teen movies

they and suicide mission I don't go into

too much detail I talk about my genre

classes but suicide mission stories a

subform of action and you set up a team

of people they have a single goal but

the goal is so impossible to get that

everybody's going to be killed by the

end of the story and they all know it

going in right it's a suicide mission

Seven Samurai

that's the beginning Magnificent Seven

sure to this day is the greatest of all

and in my opinion grace movie ever made

but that's a story

yes but but there you know a good number

of those people get killed and here's

the cheat that the modern superhero form

of this does well we can't kill off our

suit

we're heroes because we've got to happen

for the next week okay so we take the

form of a suicide mission story but we

don't kill them off or we kill off just

their like the the the superficial

outside periphery type of characters

that we can afford to get rid of right

but we don't always even have the rights

to but nobody gets fooled by that right

right I mean you get with rogue one you

had a real suicide mission story and you

you really felt when these guys you know

like yeah I mean it was right out of

Seven Samurai but you know you even had

the samurai guy the blind samurai guy

yeah somebody yeah I mean and and when

he dies I mean it hurts it hurts so it's

a great form but my point is that that

something like a suicide squad a lot of

the failure of that was embedded in the

form much like Batman vs Superman there

were certain things that they cannot

overcome simply because they have to

have repeating characters who cannot get

killed and you know we can't there's

just all kinds of things that were

restricted from dealing with these

stories but but but but frankly this

problem of mixing genres the wrong way

you rarely see it on the actual screen

because they don't get that far if you

if you have story chaos in your script

trying to mix your honor's it never got

Nate 90% of the time right so the big

problem with most of the films that get

made it is is typically one of they

don't they don't hit these fundamental

structured beats like desire like

setting up the opposition properly

that's so fundamental to a great story

is it doesn't matter what the genre is

they they lost the game much deeper

right much earlier in the process when

the entire frame of the story was set up

in the wrong way now I'm gonna ask you

the last few questions that asked all my

guests what advice would you give a

screenwriter

wanted to break into the business today

that one's easy

you have to specialize in one genre that

doesn't mean you don't add other genres

to your story but you've got to

specialize in a job and here's the

reason that the popular storytelling

today I mention it's based on each film

is based on great narrative Drive but

what creates that under the surface is

the particulars honor that you're

working in these genres are platforms

and they're extremely complex and

therefore and by the way I've never seen

it where a professional writer that I

know in this town and I know tons of

professional writers in this town that

that they that they've been able to

master more than one job so also it's so

thin first reason you master one genre

is is because it's really hard to do

that right - right at the professional

level in that job

the second reason though is that that's

how you set yourself apart from the

crowd you become known I'm the detective

guy right

I write detective stories you want it -

got it right your detective story you

got to come to me right

I'm the comedy guy that's all I write

but I'm really great at writing con so

when they're trying to figure out who

were gonna hire to write this or rewrite

more likely rewrite this script oh he's

the guy he's the guy and if we can get

him if we can pay him enough money maybe

we can get so then there's some

directors like Nolan who jumps genre

every once in a while as well because

he's a director as well so he kind of is

what a nice T it is one of the three

most powerful popular writer directors

in the world right he can do whatever

the hell he wants he's the he's the

Kubrick of his day right and and and

we're not that's the point that I tell

you know you know I always tell write

your script maximum 120 pages but better

if it's down to or 100 110 B

because Hollywood only gives you two

hours unless you're James Cameron and

then you can write as long as you want

like you make three billion dollars yes

you're not James Cameron right you don't

get to do that now can you tell me the

book that took you tell me the book that

had the biggest impact on your life a

career the book that had the biggest

impact on my life or career is what I

consider the greatest book on story

there is it Dwarfs everything else I'm

reluctant to tell you simply because it

is highly philosophical and when your

listeners go to look at it read it

they're gonna look at that in the first

three four pages and say you know are

you kidding me what that there's no way

I'm going to read this but if you if you

do read it it'll blow your mind greatest

book on story ever written it's called

anatomy of criticism look like by the

guy guy by the name of Northrop Frye and

it makes guys like like Aristotle and

Joseph Campbell I mean there's these are

great guys these are all in the top five

of masters of story but this guy is up

here and everybody else's is down here

what's the name of it again

it's called anatomy of criticism and

that's and that's one reason why my book

on story which is called Anatomy a story

has that title it's because it takes a

similar approach in their sense that

both books get in through story really

down at the technical level very

specific level instead of again this

very theoretical or esoteric stuff that

nobody really knows how to apply it's

totally practical totally useful now his

is much more esoteric because he's

essentially running the philosophy of

story his understanding of the hero and

the history of the hero just in the

first of four sections in that book

there's something else that's close to

that interesting I'm gonna read it now

I'll let you know now what is the lesson

I took you the longest to learn whether

in the film industry

life oh man especially ask me that one

that's a tough one um you know it it's

it's a lesson that I continue to try to

learn mm-hmm which is the beauty and the

complexity of story to me and and this

is something I always say to writers

unless you're in for the long haul get

out now

amen because because this is the most

complex craft in the world

nothing else is closed and if you want

to master that craft that's a lifetime

commitment I've spent my whole life

writing an understanding story and I'm

not all the way there that I know know a

little bit about story but there's a lot

more for me to learn and and so I

believe in it and and it's also

something I strongly believe in and I

tell my students which is you can you

know apply your whatever your techniques

are that you're going plot but unless

you are willing to really get to the

level of mastery of craft right then you

you're not going to succeed because and

this was the biggest surprise to me in

all my years in Holland which is that

the most successful writers are not the

most intrinsically talented

this blew me away well first I'm by it

but the ones that succeed are the ones

who have mastered the craft of writing

so that so that once when a producer

comes to hire you

they know this person's are professional

they are going to give me a professional

script every time that because keep in

mind that's their biggest fear and fear

as a producer because you're going into

producer is going into a black hole when

they hire right

they have no control over it they have

no idea what they're gonna get if you

have the track record and if you have

proven that it doesn't matter what the

job is

I always produce professional level

material then you are gonna have more

work than you ever thought possible and

you're gonna make a ton of money because

is quite rare and three of your favorite

films of all time Wow

another one I wish you had Oh Seven

Samurai you said seven samurais right at

the top

I in my anatomy of story class I teach I

talked about extensively about the

Godfather of course which is just

brilliant on every level and in so

instructive for learning to write and

and another just by the way another

argument that I make for this green play

as art form this idea that the

screenplay is a blueprint for a director

drives me up a wall you know read The

Godfather script that I mean it's just a

joy it's especially if you love story if

you love writing you read that and it's

just you know I've seen God so that's

certainly up there I think in terms of

really the one of the most brilliant

scripts in the last twenty years or so

it's a little bit more than that now as

usual suspects just great scripts great

script absolutely great script that is a

perfect example of what I was talking

about earlier of not only hitting the

story beats but flipping every one of

those story beats in a way that not just

a little bit that just blows your mind

and you don't realize how much he's

flipped every story beat until the very

last moment of the self that's that's

great right and that's a perfect example

of the power of someone who can plot

this guy that that's that's somebody who

understands plot not as high a level as

you can get and

when you can have your final big reveal

in the last scene which very few films

can do that and do that they will anoint

you as the next God and you are made for

the rest of your life well it is exactly

what happened to Christopher

Franz last night yeah me me mccurry

like that yeah gosh I should know that

I'm embarrassed that I don't know that

but yeah but hehe pretty much started

doing whatever he wanted yeah yeah

another guy who's a writer director but

but he's his we really said somewhat

self apart is is in the writing is this

guy McDonagh he did in Bruges oh yeah

ray Fiennes and and a couple of those

other Irish English you know um Wow

again you you want to see textbook great

writing take a look at that script so

those are four right there that you know

and and I could go on with I tend to

tell you the truth because I I put so

much emphasis on genre when people ask

me that question I'll usually say what

genre and and usually try to come up

with it one or two in each form because

the trick you know I was talking about

master of genre the trick is once you've

chosen your genre then go to the best in

that form yes and break them down break

up actually do a scene list of these

things and and then and then look to see

how they are structured what's the

underlying structure to the scene list

and when you do that you will start to

see how great that genre can be when

you're hitting on all cylinders now you

were talking about this worksheet you

did for the indie film muscle tribe

where can they download this worksheet

that can be downloaded at true be calm -

tre white Ruby calm forward-slash

worksheet okay it's that I was like I

guarantee your listeners that you go

through those fill in the

you know the space for your particular

story I guarantee you the narrow drive

on your story will immediately improve

quite a bit I promise you and I will put

that link in the show notes as well John

it has been an epic interview I know we

could talk for another two hours if not

longer

see your great interviewer Alex thank

you again my friend we'll talk soon

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