Episode 35: "Who is for What?"

*In this episode, where we’re once again re-joined by co-host Sam Wineman, we’re discussing a sequel that might just be even more queer than THAT entry, A NIGHTMARE ON ELM STREET 3: DREAM WARRIORS!   This is another one of THOSE episodes. We talk about the movie a lot more than our Witchboard episode, but a lot of time is devoted to a discussion of art, who owns it, and what media spaces belong to the queers.   Plus, in Tea Time we sip on SCREAM 2, NEAR DARK, JENNIFER’S BODY, and TALES OF THE CITY.[1]*

## **Trivia**

Michael: "This week we are comin' at ya from the best place to take a nap: shitty chairs in a very uninviting room that for some reason is used for teenage group therapy." Ernie the sound guy gets asked a question, but we don't hear his answer.

## **Tea Time**

**Sam:** Double feature of *Near Dark* and *Jennifer's Body*

**Brennan:** *Tales of the City* (1993)

## **Shady Summaries**

**Nay:** I love it. The end. (laughs)

**Michael:** That's a great summary

**Nay:** It is, I mean, I said it to somebody before we recorded, that I *forgot* it's one of my comfort movies

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm. You said it to me

**Nay:** Oh, well, yeah

**Michael:** You said it was like Cheese Whiz

**Nay:** Yeah, it was like Cheese Whiz!

**Michael:** And I tied that in with *Carrie 2*, because she says (as a snobby white girl) "You're caviar and she's Cheese Whiz!" Anyway

**Nay:** Yeah, it is. Put it on a cracker

**Michael:** Yeah, on a Ritz?

**Nay:** *So good*

**Michael:** I love it

**Sam:** Conversion therapy: Brought to you by Hypnocil

**Michael:** Mine is not similar, but it's on the same line where mine is, "Doctor Sims hates queer youth to death."

**Brennan:** Oh! *So true*

**Sam:** (chuckling) Dark

**Michael:** Not to laugh, but...

**Brennan:** So, I was thinking. It's been about five weeks since Mark left the show

**Michael:** Uh-huh

**Brennan:** And he used to do songs as his Shady Summaries

**Nay:** Oh yeah, that's right

**Brennan:** And it's been about *seven weeks* since we lost *Crazy Ex-girlfriend,* so I thought I would re-write the first season theme song to *Crazy Ex-girlfriend*

**Nay:** I am living!

**Michael:** Oh, wow! Are you gonna sing right now? Do you not want us to look at you? You look really nervous

**Brennan:** (pretends to hyperventilate) I'm sweating. No, no. I can do it, I can do it. I'm gonna breathe through it

**Michael:** You got it!

**Brennan:** We're gonna see how it goes and if it's a disaster

(To the tune of the first season theme for *Crazy Ex-girlfriend*)

I was working hard

at a state grad school

to avoid my dreams

One day teens were dying a lot

And so I decided to move to…

Westin Sanitarium!

With a brand-new group,

A new career

There happens to be a hot doctor,

But that's not why I'm here!

*I'm* (pre-recorded Brennan) the Final Girl!

Nancy Thompson!

(Pre-recorded Brennan) The Final Girl!

Here to save the day

No way I'm gonna die!

N-a-n-c-y, (pre-recorded Brennan) the Final Girl

**Nay:** *Wow!*

**Michael:** You just dueted with yourself, you gay boy!

**Nay:** Right!

**Brennan:** I know. Rep time!

**Michael:** Sam, his mouth's agape

**Sam:** I am *floored*

**Michael:** My cheeks are hurting from laughing

**Nay:** Boner alert

**Michael:** My cheeks hurt!

**Brennan:** I feel like my hands have fallen asleep

**Michael:** (laughs) Because you're post-nervous?

**Brennan:** This is like my debut

**Michael:** Yeah

## **Pride Float**

**Michael:** Pride Float?

**Brennan:** Yeah, let's do a rapid-fire Pride float

**Michael:** (to Nay) Does it get a Pride float?

**Nay:** No

**Brennan:** Michael?

**Michael:** I'm gonna go, it doesn't get a Pride float, but it is a sponsor of the Pride parade

**Brennan:** All right

**Nay:** Yeah, it made money, so. Yeah

**Brennan:** Sam?

**Sam:** No. But I love it

**Michael:** I love it too. It's so great, it's so cute

**Brennan:** Yeah, no. I love this movie, too, but I'm glad we're all agreeing 'cause I'm also a "No". But call me for *Elm Street 4*, because I have some thoughts

**Michael:** Oooh!

## **Quotes**

**Brennan:** Full disclosure, this is the second episode of a double recording, which as you know, results in some of our most punch-drunk and ridiculous episodes

**Michael:** Punchy, yeah. And Sam, your first *day* with us, officially as a co-host gets two episodes

**Sam:** Which is incredible. Incredible

**Brennan:** (indistinct)

**Michael:** (laughing) See, we're already punchy, none of us can speak!

**Sam:** But it's great, because it means if I really fuck up, you guys won't know for like three weeks

**Michael:** Yeah. When will this air? Two weeks from today?

**Brennan:** The twenty-third

**Michael:** So two weeks. (clenches teeth) The pressure's on, Sam!

**Nay:** I mean, we'll know by the end of this hour. We do not have to wait

**Michael:** I thought you did an amazing job leading the *Carrie. The Rage: Carrie 2*

**Nay:** Yeah

**Brennan:** You *Carrie-*d that episode

**Michael:** Ohhhh. You *Carrie*-d us to the finish line

**Sam:** Well, the male is the carrier

**Michael:** I wish they would've done a *Carrie 3*, just for shots

**Brennan:** They did two other *Carrie*s, does that count?

**Michael:** I know

**Brennan:** I almost said, "Can you add them into one?"

**Sam:** I just saw a double feature of *Near Dark* and *Jennifer's Body*

**Brennan:** Oooh!

**Sam:** Changed my life

**Michael:** (groans orgasmically)

**Sam:** I've seen both of those films before, but--

**Michael:** I've never seen them on the big screen, including *Jennifer's Body*

**Sam:** *Oh God*, I saw that in theaters. And people always care about *Jennifer's Body* not being a *thing* until now? That's wrong

**Brennan:** Yeah!

**Sam:** If you-- for a lot of us, who are queer or female or both, it's been a thing

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Sam:** And for me, the soundtrack was so killer--

**Michael:** The movie's *so* awesome

**Sam:** It's so quotable! Like, "Is he gonna fuck his mom?" She's talking about *Hamlet.* It's like *so*--

**Michael:** Have you seen it, Nay?

**Nay:** No

**Michael and Sam:** (gasping)

**Michael:** We're doing that with Chelsea (Stardust) and I can't wait!

**Nay:** I know

**Sam:** And seeing that in a theater, like a packed theater full of people laughing with and appreciating those jokes?

**Michael:** Appreciate it? Yeah. Fucking good movie

**Sam:** It just--

**Nay:** Oh wait, no, we're talking about *Jennifer's Body*, I thought you were talking about the first one

**Sam:** *Near Dark*

**Nay:** Yeah

**Sam:** What struck me about seeing it was just how much at its time, that how much it reflected what was happening with AIDS and getting sick and that quote, "fantasy" of flipping and having nothing left to lose, and then that whole narrative of going back

**Michael:** Ooof

**Sam:** I mean, it hit me in a different way than--

**Michael:** Kathryn Bigelow, right?

**Sam:** Yeah. Incredible

**Michael:** *Jennifer's Body*? We're gonna have Chelsea Stardust in June to talk about that

**Sam:** I *love* Chelsea

**Michael:** I'm so excited. I saw that movie *late*. I had rented it, I remember renting it from, I think Blockbuster was still around in 2009, and I remember renting it going in thinking I'd hate it, because people I know that-- the reason I didn't see it in the theater is because anyone who saw it told me it was trash. And sitting in my Studio City apartment, like barely living here for just a few months. I had no furniture. I remember sitting on the floor of my bedroom that had a mattress on the floor, that was all I had, and a TV, and watching it and *fucking* losing my shit. Seriously feeling like, "I think this is the gayest I've ever been in my entire life," and living for it. Yeah, so

**Sam:** The thing I didn't like about the screening is, the line, "You give me such a wettie," didn't get any laughs, and I was like, "*Ohhh*, *that's so good, though!*"

**Nay:** *Wow*

**Michael:** *It's so good!*

**Nay:** *Wow*

**Brennan:** My boyfriend and I have been watching *Tales of the City*. It's based on the Armistead Maupin novels, which were based off his serial column he wrote for The San Francisco Chronicle. It's basically a soap opera set in bohemian Seventies San Francisco. It stars Laura Linney as Mary-Ann Singleton--

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm

**Sam:** Queen

**Brennan:** Who's like, "Iowa chick movin' to town"

**Michael:** I think it's like the second or third version of the series, right? With her?

**Brennan:** Yeah, Netflix is making a *new* series--

**Michael:** Yeah

**Brennan:** That's coming out in June, which is why we've been catching them. But there was *Tales of the City* in Ninety-three, and then *More Tales of the City* and *Further Tales of the City* in Ninety-eight and 2001

**Michael:** Got that. Okay, I thought there was one back in the Seventies. Maybe I'm incorrect

**Brennan:** *No.* They're *set* in the Seventies

**Michael:** Okay

**Brennan:** But have any of you seen or read any *Tales* (*of the City*) at all?

**Michael:** I've seen some of the old, old, old *Tales of the City*

**Brennan:** Okay

**Sam:** When I was a kid, I used to watch them on HBO, like stay up late and try not to get caught. I haven't seen it since then

**Brennan:** Okay.

**Michael:** I feel like the original aired on like PBS, right?

**Brennan:** The original was, I believe. produced by *Masterpiece* (*Theater*) and aired in the US on PBS

**Michael:** Yes

**Sam:** It was Showtime

**Nay:** (laughing) I thought you said, "Master P!" I knew Ernie was like, "Master P??"

**Michael:** Yeah, it was part of *Masterpiece Theater*

**Brennan:** Yeah.

**Michael:** (hums the beat to "(×)"

**Brennan:** Sorry to disappoint

**Nay:** (starts singing the rhythm to "(×)"

**Brennan:** I don't get why more people aren't talking about *Tales of the City*? 'Cause this came out in 1993. We were in a *pre*-*Will & Grace* world

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm

**Brennan:** And this is the *queerest* shit

**Michael:** Ninety-three is when *Philadelphia* came out, if it helps put it in context

**Brennan:** Yeah. Literally, I mean, this is a spoiler for the first season but it's not important

**Michael:** It's fine

**Brennan:** One of the main characters is an over-sixty trans woman, and the way that they handle her character is incredible. She's first of all, the best character in the show. Second of all, in the second season, there's a whole conversation about pronouns

**Michael:** *Wow*

**Brennan:** And there's just all of this stuff that is pulled from conversations that I feel like we've been having more recently, but this is happening in the early-to-mid-Nineties

**Michael:** That's great

**Brennan:** And obviously it caused a *huge* uproar in the Christian community, which is why the next two seasons moved to Showtime

**Nay:** *What?* But they're so chill normally

**Brennan:** Yeah

**Michael:** (mockingly) "Chill…"

**Brennan:** But it's *outstandingly* queer, and I really-- look, it gets *crazy*-pants in terms of the soap opera plotting of it, 'cause the first season is a very, I won't say gritty, but realistic just kind of low-key this is what life is like and we're just gonna hang out with these characters. And season two is just *bugnuts*. And season three… okay, I will drop a pre-season three spoiler plot point from season two. On a cruise, Laura Linney's character--

**Michael:** Of course

**Brennan:** Meets a super-handsome straight man who does not remember the three or four years he's lived in San Francisco because he has amnesia and all that they know is that he throws up whenever they see roses. And they are like trying to solve the mystery

**Michael:** Mmmkay

**Brennan:** It's, no, it's *purest* camp

**Michael:** That sounds like a network note

**Brennan:** And look, season two (*More Tales…*) you're gettin' Swoosie Kurtz in there

**Michael:** Oh, I love Swoosie

**Brennan:** Season three you're getting Sandra Oh

**Michael:** Oooh!

**Brennan:** Also, Olympia Dukakis plays Anna Madrigal, the landlady

**Nay:** *Yes!* Hell yeah

**Michael:** Fuck yes!

**Brennan:** She thinks she's in a very good show

**Michael:** Love it

**Brennan:** And occasionally she's right

**Michael:** (chuckles) That's such a bitchy thing to say

**Nay:** (chuckling) Right

**Michael:** I love it!

**Brennan:** She's stupendous. And look, you know, PBS acting, it's not always the best. But Laura Linney's great, Olympia Dukakis is so great. I'm *so* ready for the new series. Very excited

**Nay:** Can't remember the name of it, but I watched this David Attenborough nature doc

**Brennan:** Okay

**Nay:** There's lots of polar bears in it

**Michael:** *Our Planet*?

**Nay:** No, I don't think it was one of those with like, episodes

**Michael:** Oh, okay

**Nay:** But I was thinking about how *he's* been old my whole life--

**Michael:** Right

**Nay:** How old is he?

**Michael:** A hundred and thirty-two

**Nay:** But it also just made me really anxious about global warming, so that was *so* fun (laughs)

**Michael:** Is this what you watched when you got back into town?

**Nay:** No, this is what I watched while I was out of town

**Michael:** Ooof

**Nay:** That was a good idea, wasn't it? Yeah

**Michael:** (laughs) God

**Sam:** So pretty

**Brennan:** What about you, Michael?

**Michael:** I watched *Scream 2*, Brennan

**Brennan:** Oh my God, did you really?

**Michael:** Yeah. I watched *Scream* (1996) one night and then I watched *Scream 2* the next night. Still holds up, still amazing. I love it, thank you

**Sam:** (feigning ignorance) I've never seen that. What's it about?

**Michael:** (to Sam) I'm gonna kill you (laughs) So I decided this week, I watched *Scream*, and then I really wanted to watch *Scream 2*, so I'm gonna watch *Scream 3* and then I'll watch *Scream 4* again

**Brennan:** Cool. I mean, it sounds like a plan

**Michael:** Yeah, I haven't actually, I don't think I've ever sat and like, done the four of them one after the other

**Nay:** Really?

**Michael:** Like one day, or day after day

**Brennan:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** So I'm really excited 'cause

tonight's *Scream 3*

**Brennan:** Oh!

**Michael:** Yeah

**Sam:** *Yes*

**Brennan:** That's a fun movie to close out a night

**Michael:** Kinda. I mean, if I fall asleep during it, I'll be okay

**Brennan:** Yeah, look, it's a weaker entry--

**Michael:** It is

**Brennan:** But it's a cartoon and it's fun

**Michael:** It's *Scooby-doo*

**Brennan:** Yeah

**Michael:** And Scooby-doo with short bangs. But (*Scream*) *2* is still like, I love it so much

**Nay:** You do

**Michael:** I love *Scream 2* so much, it's *so* good. The acting, the dialogue, the set pieces and everything, I just live for that movie. Fuckin' Laurie Metcalfe at the end, like just *insanity*

**Brennan:** Oh yeah

**Michael:** Those fuckin' huge eyes

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** Again I picked up music cues that I've heard without the movie, but never heard them on such a good TV *with* the movie, and it makes *such* a difference. It's so great. So yeah, tonight is *Scream 3*, sometime this weekend is *Scream 4*

**Nay:** Yeah, it doesn't make a huge difference and this is silly, and it's not as cool as what (Michael) just brought up. But watching *The Office* the other day on someone's HD, like, *new* TV--

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm

**Nay:** I'd never watched-- 'cause you know, I watch *The Office*--

**Michael:** Yeah. *All the time*

**Nay:** On my *old ass laptop*

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** And I saw someone's eyeshadow that I had never noticed before, and it just made a really big difference in that character

**Michael:** Yeah. That's the fun of going back

**Nay:** I was like, "*Oh my God!* I've watched this show through fifteen times--"

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm

**Nay:** "And never noticed any of that."

**Michael:** You should do-- when you watch it on your laptop, do you put headphones in or no?

**Nay:** Sometimes

**Michael:** 'Cause I have noticed watching shows and movies with headphones, you *hear* *so much more*

**Nay:** Well I would always have captions on. I fuckin' love captions

**Michael:** But sound design on headphones, with like, a big fucking television with the sound up-- Brian and I, we gifted each other, we essentially bought our first item together even though we've been together for four years, which was a 4K TV. We splurged and got a really nice one, and the first 4K move we watched on it was *Close Encounters,* there's a 4K copy of it now, and *the sound*, it's like fucking unreal how much of that movie I never heard before. Like *in* the sound design. It makes *such* a difference. It's so cool

**Nay:** Wow. So you and Brian are gay, huh?

**Michael:** Gay as fuck!

**Sam:** (laughing) Yeah!

**Michael:** And then I watched *Logan*, again. Blown fuckin' away watching that in 4K. And I was so resistant to getting a 4K TV because I was like, "Why are we gonna spend the money, we could spend the money on something else that we *need*." And pushback, pushback we get it and he puts in *Logan*, switches to SD after like, fifteen minutes and I was like, "Okay…" I used to be like, "There's no difference! What are you talking about?" There's a *huge* fucking difference and I was like, (sheepishly) "*Okay*, I'm eating crow."

**Nay:** "My favorite meal."

**Brennan:** "Oooh, a feather."

**Nay:** "My most frequent meal."

**Michael:** So, folks, the movie we're bringing to you today. I wouldn't say this is like a controversial pick, because it's not. But most people recognize another film in this franchise for being "the gayest of all time". But I personally feel that *Nightmare on Elm Street 3* is an even gayer movie. And that's what we are covering tonight. And this movie was probably chosen off the conversation Sam and I had a month ago, about how we were undercover about how we thought *Nightmare on Elm Street 3* was queerer than *2*, but we didn't tell anybody. (To Sam) Do you remember this conversation?

**Sam:** No, tell me more about it

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** And that's where wanting to do this movie genesis happened for me, so we're doing *Nightmare 3*

**(Brennan plays part of the trailer)**

**KIRSTY:** The man in my dreams, he's real, isn't he?

**Sam:** He's not

**Brennan:** (amused) He's not? Spoilers!

**Michael:** So do you guys have Shady Summaries for this or like, Lovable Summaries for this? Either or.

**Nay:** I mean, lovable really

**Brennan:** Yeah, of course!

**Sam:** Yeah

**Michael:** (to Brennan) So, did you like the movie?

**Brennan:** Yeah! I did. I like this movie a lot.

**Sam:** (to Brennan) I'm sorry, I don't think I even knew you until now. That was so revealing and--

**Brennan:** Honestly, this is peak me in high school, honestly

**Sam:** You are such a magical person

**Brennan:** Thank you

**Michael:** That was great, Brennan. I appreciate you.

**Michael:** Okay, a little bit on *Nightmare on Elm Street: Tokyo Drift*, it's written by Wes Craven and Bruce Wagner *and* Frank Darabont and Chuck Russell. Story by Craven and Wagner. Directed by Chuck Russell. Music by Angelo Badilamenti, who's famous for his *Twin Peaks* scores. Stars Heather Langenkamp, Robert Englund, John Saxon, *Larry* Fishburne also known as Laurence Fishburne--

**Brennan:** That kid's goin' places

**Nay:** (snaps) Right

**Michael:** And it was bad bitch Patricia Arquette's first film, who I love. It made forty-five million dollars at the box office

**Nay:** *Wow*

**Michael:** Making it the highest-grossing for the studio that year, in 1987, and the twenty-fourth highest grossing movie of the year. It is the third highest-grossing film of the original *Nightmare* franchise after *Freddy Versus Jason* and *A Nightmare on Elm Street 4: The Dream Child*. I have a lot more facts if you wanna start there. Sam, you had a question?

**Brennan:** *The Dream Child's* part five

**Sam:** Yeah

**Michael:** Oh, okay. The Dream Master. *The Dream Master*

**Sam:** I didn't want to say something stupid that can't be taken off the internet, so I just looked at you

**Michael:** I actually have it written here--

**Sam:** Great

**Michael:** I just said "The Dream Child"

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Brennan:** (To Sam) I know what you were thinking

**Sam:** Thank you, Brennan

**Michael:** So I think there's some interesting stuff… have you guys ever read Wes Craven's original draft for this or heard about some of the original incarnations for this movie before it got off the ground?

**Sam:** No

**Brennan:** Wasn't one of the original story ideas *New Nightmare*?

'*Michael: **It was (Wes's) first take. So after (*****NOES*)* 2 *just left everybody feeling "eh" even though it had made more money than (*NOES*)* 1 *the studio kind of realized they needed to right ship and go back to the roots of the franchise even though they were only on the third movie at this point. So they actually asked Wes to come back. He was hesitant, he didn't want to do* 2*, he didn't want to do* 3*, but he came up with a pitch that was essentially* New Nightmare *and the studio were immediately like, "Nnno. No. Can't do that." So then he had a second idea, which was, some of the elements are in the movie which is why he has screenwriting credit and story credit. But I read this draft and it's fucking insane and it's really dark and scary and I wish they would have gone for it. But at the time, there was a lot of, just negativity-- there was a rash of teen suicides going on in America and parents weren't having it. So the studio was afraid to do like a teen-centered story fully, and Wes's original idea that he wrote with Bruce was essentially a bunch of kids going to one location for some reason they didn't know, but to kill themselves at this location. And then you spend the whole movie with Nancy and* Kirsten *in this script. (Kirsten) only spends like a minute in the mental hospital and she goes to this location and Nancy's not a doctor, she's not studying to be a doctor or anything, she's just trying to prove that Freddy's actually* real *and that he's like a flesh-and-blood person now at this point. And of course the location that these kids are going to ends up actually being Freddy's childhood home. So you spend most of the movie in his* fuckin** crazy childhood home

**Nay:** *Wow*

**Michael:** They go into rooms and stuff, and correct me if I'm wrong somebody online, but I think they go into his rooms and see parts of his past as their nightmares and that kind of thing. It's a really trippy *dark*, *very dark* movie

**Brennan:** And there's fresh fennel in the kitchen

**Michael:** Yes! Sean Patrick Thomas throws it at Breckin Myer?

**Brennan:** Yeah

**Michael:** So, I had a lot more on it, but I don't wanna bore people to death. But… in Jeffrey Cooper's novelization called *The Nightmares on Elm Street Parts 1, 2 and 3: The Continuing Story*, the original Craven and Wagner version is adapted instead of the movie. So, if you can find the book

**Brennan:** Also Taryn can breathe fire in the book

**Michael:** Oh really?

**Brennan:** Yeah

**Michael:** That's really funny

**Sam:** She's already so cool!

**Michael:** Yeah! Doctor Sims's last name name in Craven's first draft was Maddalena, which was the name of his producing partner, which I think was cute

**Brennan:** Also, since you brought up Doctor Sims--

**Sam:** *Bitch*

**Michael:** I have found one more fancy fact which connects this to actually *The Rage: Carrie 2*, which we talked about last week. The actress who plays Doctor Sims is Amy Irving's mother [E/N: She also appeared in the original *Carrie* as the mom to Amy Irving's character.]

**Michael:** No shit!

**Brennan:** Yeah

**Nay:** Huh

**Sam:** Hmm

**Michael:** Wow. Okay

**Brennan:** So that happened

**Michael:** Interesting

**Brennan:** So it's a secret Amy Irving double feature

**Michael:** So, *Nightmare on Elm Street 3*. I like to call it the "*Nightmare* Avengers". It's like *Nightmare*'s version of *The Avengers,* right? And I think they did a really good job of adding this element of giving the kids a superpower to fight in their dream sequences, and to me it's like one of those homerun ideas: you're either gonna swing and completely fucking miss or you swing and knock it out of the park, 'cause that could go really bad really quickly. And I thought they did a good job of giving the kids a special power, and I just wanted to discuss that a little bit. Because our queeroes have a lot of cool stuff going on that they can do. Let me ask you this question: I call it "Code Gay" at Westin Hills--

**Nay:** Yes

**Michael:** That I think every single one of these kids, every single one is queer. Nancy, to me, is queer in this movie. I think she, after the death of her boyfriend in (*NOES*) *Part One*, did a lot of soul searching and realized she was a lesbian

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Brennan:** I mean, Johnny Depp's character in the first movie is--

**Michael:** He's soft butch

**Brennan:** Yeah

**Michael:** Yeah. He is.

**Brennan:** He's a transitional--

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** (laughs and sighs) Little emo butch

**Michael:** So I dunno. I kind of want to start there, because I think to me, this movie's queer from beginning to end. Because you meet Kristen right away, as she's putting together-- I think I wrote in my notes, "papier mache equals gay". She's papier macheing and putting Nancy's house together and--

**Nay:** (chuckles softly) That was… yeah

**Michael:** It's a queer movie from the get-go

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** Anyone else have any thoughts about these kids 'cause I think they're all coded as queer or just are just straight-up queer

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Brennan:** Hmmm

**Michael:** Including Joey, who has the hots for the nurse

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Brennan:** Honestly, I think I'm gonna need some convincing on that one, because I can *so* get behind the idea that these characters are *othered*, they're ignored by their peers and their parents--

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm

**Brennan:** That's like an entryway into a queer perspective--

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm

**Brennan:** And I can definitely read a couple characters as queer, but I definitely want to hear more about how you think *every* character is queer, 'cause that's not a reading that *I* have, but I'm very interested in it

**Michael:** I took the reading from the way Doctor Sims just talks about what their issues are and she says all their issues. We have a clip of it if you wanna play it. It's a really long clip where it intros all the kids, so maybe it's a good place to start actually.

**[Brennan plays the clip]**

**DOCTOR GORDON:** Straight talk only in this room.

**Brennan:** (amused) "Straight talk only." See? Like I said, no one's gay here!

**DOCTOR SIMS:** I'd like to start by getting us acquainted with our new staff member, Nancy Thompson

**Michael:** And feel free to talk over

**SIMS:** And make her feel welcome

**PATIENTS:** Hi

**GORDON:** Now of course you've already met Kincaid and Gordon and of course Kristy. How 'bout the rest of you tell Nancy a little something about yourselves?

**Michael:** I love all their little stories

**GORDON:** Will, how about you first?

**WILL:** Hi, I'm Will Stanton and um, I had a little accident as you can see, and that's how I ended up in this chair.

**TARYN:** "Accident" my ass. (To Gordon) I thought you said this was supposed to be "straight talk" in here.

**KINCAID:** So he took a jump!

**Sam:** Brave man

**KINCAID:** (indistinct)

**SIMS:** Save it, Kincaid.

**Michael:** (sotto voce) Bitch

**SIMS:** Jennifer?

**JENNIFER:** I'm Jennifer Caulfield. And as soon as I get out of here, I'm going to Los Angeles to be an actress.

**Nay:** (scoffing) Yeah

**Sam:** Same

**JENNIFER:** I'm gonna be on TV

**KINCAID:** Yeah, "Lifestyles of the Rich and Psychotic".

**JENNIFER:** (To Kincaid) Screw you.

**Brennan:** Okay, he is reading them. You're right

**Nay:** Oh yeah

**Michael:** Yeah

**JENNIFER:** This is Joey. He used to be a (indistinct) in school but now he doesn't talk much

**Michael:** Throwing shade. Queer.

**Brennan:** I don't know if I wanna claim Kincaid. I don't really like Kincaid

**Sam:** (gasps)

**Michael:** I liked Kincaid by the end

**Nay:** Sometimes there's gays we don't like

**Brennan:** That's true. You're right

**Nay:** They there

**Michael:** And so it's coming up

**PHILLIP:** Can I just say something here to save us all some time?

**Michael:** (softly) No

**GORDON:** Sure, Phillip, go ahead

**PHILLIP:** Well, according to our kind hosts, our dreams are a "group psychosis", sort of a "mellow mass hysteria"

**Michael:** (softly) Gay

**Brennan:** Gay. I'm into it

**PHILLIP:** The fact that we were dreaming about this guy before we even met doesn't seem to impress anybody

**TARYN:** That's right

**Michael:** (softly) "We were gay (indistinct)"

**PHILLIP:** We go in circles, making minimal progress with maximum effort

**Michael:** (softly) "'Cause we're gay!"

**SIMS:** You won't make any progress until you recognize your dreams are what they are

**Brennan:** I can hear it, I can hear it in the lines

**Michael:** Yeah!

**NANCY:** What are they?

**SIMS:** The by-products of guilt. Psychological scars stemming from moral conflicts over sexuality

**Michael:** Gay conversion therapy! So yeah, the Doctor Sims line at the end there, to me, any queer-coding questions I had was answered by,  that was answered by her literally being like, "You're homosexuals." To me. Or I can read it that way

**Sam:** So this gets into some interesting territory for me, which is what is and isn't a queer film. And I know that you talk about it on here a lot, because you watch a lot of different things

**Michael:** Right

**Sam:** To *me*, this is not a queer film. But it is something that has, when you do a queer reading of it? It is a *perfect fit*. So I guess in that way it is

**Michael:** Yeah

**Sam:** Or you know, unintentionally or maybe intentionally if you know more than I do, but the fit of everyone having their own thing that they're trying to hold back, and they're going there to fix it. And obviously the doctor is overseeing this. Even when Nancy brings in a medication that will effectively *not* solve the problem but just--

**Michael:** Suppress it?

**Sam:** Suppress it

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm

**Sam:** And that's, even Nancy thinks that's the solution for a little bit

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Sam:** Until they get to a place where they can *embrace* who they are, discover that's *not* what's holding you back, but it's actually the very thing that sets you free and then have victory?

**Michael:** Yeah

**Sam:** Yeah, that is the kind of queer film I *need* and want and *deserve*!

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Sam:** We don't have enough of!

**Michael:** And I think that's the beauty of just having-- to be able to think on your own

**Sam:** Yes

**Nay:** Yes

**Michael:** Something doesn't need to register or definitely be defined as "queer" to be queer. And for me, I watch a movie like this, and some of the movies we discussed that aren't straight-up, I'm blanking on *any* movie that we've watched, but that aren't straight-up queer, but being able to-- like *Rosemary's Baby* is a good example of being able to put your life experience *into* Rosemary to understand what she's going through, even though her life is different than yours, having the commonality, whether it's queerness or you know, literally being a woman who's being impregnated by the Devil, you know, to me that makes it queer. Right? You know, if it's queer to you, it's queer? Kind of?

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Sam:** Sometimes a film that is not explicitly queer or intended to be queer has a better queer reading than a film that is

**Michael:** Exactly!

**Sam:** A great example would be, last week we talked about *The Rage: Carrie 2*. You can use explicit language--

**Michael:** Yeah

**Sam:** You can even create a moment that goes down that path but that doesn't mean it's handled responsibly

**Nay:** Yeah

**Sam:** And so, for something like this for an audience that doesn't *explicitly* see themselves in film? I know that for *me*, this was my favorite *Nightmare* **for years**

**Michael:** Same

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Sam:** I gravitated *to* these people. I wanted to *be* these people

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** I know as a young person I didn't *know why*, but as an adult, I know younger me loved this movie so much because they were finding A.) who they were like you said, and B.) Strength to not only accept that, but to use it as their best asset

**Nay:** Yeah

**Brennan:** Mmm-hmm

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** Nay, what do you think?

**Nay:** I mean, I think when I was younger, I thought of like, sin in general as far as like the thing they're trying to avoid. And as an older person I'm like, we think about queerness and gender and all kinds of things that you're told to keep inside of these certain lines and then as a queer person or a trans person, you're like, "I do not fit in this."

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm

**Nay:** And it's like you spend a long time trying to, until you realize that it's okay that you don't

**Michael:** *Right*

**Nay:** And I think maybe, I guess, I wish I could remember how old I was when I first watched this. But the sin back then that I was trying to keep from doing back then was masturbating, all the time. I didn't know I was gay, but I was like, "That's the thing that I do that is a sin."

**Michael:** I love you, Nay

**Nay:** And they're like, you know, homegirl cut off her eyelids to keep from sleeping (chortles)

**Michael:** *Right??* It's like a form of castration

**Nay:** Yeah. All of the things. I mean, it kind of resonates from last week with *The Rage* and talking about Katt Shea and things that *we've* done when we were younger that we were like, "Wow, that was very very gay."

**Michael:** (chuckling) Mmm-hmm

**Nay:** I know for myself I definitely just had no concept of the fact that all of these rules were made up (chuckles)

**Michael:** I know (chuckles) isn't that so--

**Brennan:** Isn't that *so* nice when you learn that they *are* made up?

**Nay:** Yes. Yes! I mean it's terrifying, but--

**Michael:** It's like when Kara was here with *Rosemary's Baby* and you realized, "I'm an adult in my own home and I can do whatever the fuck I want."

**Nay:** Yes

**Michael:** It's such a simple statement but it's so true

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** And it's such a moment you *do* have at some point in your life. I know I had when I moved out here--

**Brennan:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** And you just realize, "Wait. I don't have anyone to answer to."

**Nay:** I have it over and over and over again

**Michael:** Yeah, it's amazing

**Nay:** Every day, all throughout the day

**Michael:** It's such a great feeling, right?

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** I'll be like, "Oh, am I sittin' in this park, smokin' a joint? Yes I am." Like I didn't know *that's* what I was gonna want to do when I was a kid, but now that I'm grown, I'm like, "I'm doin' whatever the fuck I want, aren't I? It feels amazing."

**Michael:** So, Brennan, do you…?

**Brennan:** No, I totally get where you're coming from more than the beginning of this

**Michael:** Yeah! Difference of opinion's great

**Brennnan:** Oh yeah, no, I-- look, existing as any racial or social minority in a culture that's not geared towards your interests or life or whatever, you *do* have to read into the culture at large--

**Nay:** Right

**Brennan:** The mainstream culture and find yourself in it

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Brennan:** That's something that we've had to do as queer people, that's something that-- you know, read almost any thinkpiece from someone who's not white talking about pop culture and finding their space in it, which first of all I recommend you do, there's a lot of very interesting ones

**Michael:** Our friend Joelle Monique writes several beautiful ones every month when it comes to that

**Brennan:** Yes!

**Michael:** Yeah

**Brennan:** And if you'll allow me a tangent *really* quick--

**Michael:** Yeah

**Brennan:** There is a new movie coming out in August called *Blinded by the Light*. It's directed by Gurinder Chadha, who directed *Bride and Prejudice* and *Bend it Like Beckham*. She is a woman of color who grew up in England, and all of her stuff is about the intersection between British culture and Indian culture

**Michael:** Right

**Brennan:** And this new movie is about, an I believe, and I don't know specifically what country he's from because I haven't seen the movie, but he's not a white person, but he's of East Asian descent and he finds a deep wellspring of love for Bruce Springsteen

**Michael:** Interesting

**Brennan:** The movie, at least according to the trailer, seems to be about how deeply he can connect with the works of Bruce Springsteen, works that weren't created for him. and the kind of clash that creates in the existing culture clash that's in his life

**Michael:** Oh, interesting

**Brennan:** And I dunno, I wanna stump for that movie 'cause I love her films *so* much. And anyway, go check that out. But also--

**Michael:** It ties into what this movie's about

**Brennan:** As queer people, there's definite, there's *really* easy insertion points-- (laughs)

**Michael:** For this movie?

**Nay:** Mmmkay

**Brennan:** For queer identification

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** Yeah

**Brennan:** And I *totally* get that. But I also agree with Sam in the sense that like, I don't think this film was created to be queer

**Michael:** No, I don't think so either

**Brennan:** But I also don't think that doesn't mean that it's not

**Michael:** Right

**Nay:** Right

**Brennan:** I'm just kind of dancing on the fence--

**Nay:** It's like, "Ha-ha!"

**Brennan:** It's like, "Yeah, we got this one! We stole it from you!"

**Nay:** (sing-song voice) "*Sorry!*" (laughs)

**Sam:** This, I feel like it's a conversation I've been getting in on Twitter especially *again* and again, which is what belongs to us and what doesn't belong to us. And the second that-- and I hear your hesitance Brennan, and I understand it and I feel for it, because a lot of times I feel like I don't want to say something *is* queer, especially when I know it wasn't created to be that way. But for me personally, it's because there's always so much backlash to say, "Well, this is ours. And what does that mean?"

**Brennan:** Mmm-hmm

**Sam:** When you look at a film that is, like *Near Dark*, which is directed by Katherine Bigelow. We know that she is a female director and you can't dispute that. When we're looking at something like *Nightmare on Elm Street 3*, okay, well, whose is it? Or *Hellraiser*, you know, and all the news that came forward about that, and *who* is going to be in charge of this franchise. What is the direction that the new Chucky is going to be now that it is in the hands of straight people?

**Nay:** *Right. Right*.

**Sam:** And, *do* we have ownership over that? And that's where that conversation to me gets a little bit murkier

**Michael:** Well I think that's why we find ourselves putting queerness on things that weren't intended to be queer, because we don't have a lot else out there, you know?

**Brennan:** Especially in 1987

**Sam:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** Yeah. And honestly I think for me, as a creative person, I'm a writer. If I wrote something that wasn't explicitly queer and a queer person identified with it? Then that's great, you know what I mean? I bet if the filmmakers, you know if Wes Craven was around today and he was sittin' here with us and we were telling him *Nightmare on Elm Street 3* was like a seminal queer film for me, he'd be like, "That's amazing!"

**Sam:** Yeah

**Michael:** "I didn't intend it to *be* that way, but I'm so glad you found yourself in the film," you know? And I think that's the good thing about hurt, you know?

**Nay:** *Yesss*

**Michael:** And I don't do that with a lot of stuff, I don't take it lightly and queer anything I see up and go, "Oh, that's queer, i can make it queer. I'm gonna make this queer, that's my goal today." But I think, for me, it's okay to do that, but for me it's like I identify *Nightmare 3* as a queer movie because I think it's super queer, and I have reasons that I think it's queer and I can state those reasons as opposed to just being like, "It's queer!" You know?

**Brennan:** Yeah! And… I mean, this stems from a much larger point for me about who art belongs to

**Michael:** Right

**Brennan:** How much the--

**Michael:** Artists or the people?

**Brennan:** Yeah. How much the intention of the artist matters in the long run, because once the artist has departed the work--

**Michael:** The work's still there

**Brennan:** The audience is as important if not more important than the artist. And that could be a really challenging discussion to have, like just as an appreciatior of art

**Michael:** Well, like just how we talked about with *Carrie 2*, the view of that movie can change over the course of twenty years

**Sam:** Well, also who an audience is. For me, *Nightmare on Elm Street* is such a dudebro thing. I love it, I'm here for it, I'm so into it. I know that that's who that movie belongs to. Just like I know *Hello Mary Lou* belongs to us

**Nay:** Yaaaaaas!

**Michael:** Yeaaaah!

**Sam:** But when I'm looking at it, when you actually look at the film, why isn't-- I mean, *Nightmare on Elm Street 3* fits us way better than *Hello Mary Lou* when you think thematically and story-wise and actually giving us something to aspire to be. So why is it then that we give it to them and then we'll take this one over here. Is it just having a female in the front? There are strong women in this movie

**Michael:** Well I think it depends on what the reaction is when it comes out, probably as well. But the other thing is, why can't we just fuckin' share?

**Brennan:** Oh yeah. No--

**Sam:** Oh, absolutely

**Michael:** Right? And that wasn't intended towards you, that was just intended in general

**Brennan:** Well, one thing I was gonna say is that you seeing yourself in this movie makes it fucking queer

**Michael:** Exactly. Exactly

**Brennan:** That is true. It doesn't matter what anybody else takes from it or gave into it, that is *your* truth

**Michael:** (laughs) It's my truth. *Nightmare 3* truth

**Brennan:** That is a *truth*, and that's how art fucking works

**Michael:** Yeah. That's the beauty of art

**Brennan:** But I mean that obviously… the conversation of, "What is art?" is something that people have been talking about literally forever

**Michael:** Right

**Brennan:** And that's something interesting. But also to Sam's point, I mean, hasn't there been a kind of disappointing history of, especially gay men, rejecting works that are explicitly queer in favor of things where they can kind of see themselves through the mirror of a female? Because it's a more distancing aspect

**Sam:** Tell me more. Like what?

**Brennan:** I mean, I dunno, there's a lot of thinkpieces about it I have read and wish I could spring them all from memory exactly

**Michael:** Do you mean from internalized homophobia?

**Sam:** Mmmm

**Brennan:** Yeah, in terms of like, if we're looking at it like a gay male pop artist, we don't tend to, as a massive generalized group, we don't tend to lift those people up as much as we lift up your Madonnas or your Britney Spears or people who are not queer people--

**Sam:** I feel personally attacked

**Brennan:** I think it's a thing-- look, I love me some divas, but I think it's a thing--

**Michael:** Show title (chuckles)

**Brennan:** Where we *do* still have so little representation that when there is something or someone out there that is like, "I'm not a queer person," or in terms of-- I'm speaking as a cis gay man, someone out here is saying, "I'm a gay man," if you don't feel *directly*, *distinctly* represented by that person, you kind of push it away

**Sam:** Mmmmm

**Brennan:** And when it is something that's more outrageous or like a woman who is taking her love and interest in men to an extreme, you can relate to that because it's through a prism. It's not you looking directly at someone and being like, "You are not me, and I dunno, I need to have a me here," if that makes sense?

**Michael:** Yeah, it does

**Brennan:** I dunno. Is that something?

**Michael:** (laughing) "Is that something?" Nay, what do you think?

**Nay:** Um, I think we can take whatever we want to take

**Brennan:** Hell yeah

**Michael:** Love it

**Nay:** And it's not that it's that the conversation shouldn't happen or that we can't have, you know, we can't talk about, actually, no fuck you. No one has to explain why a movie resonates with them or why they feel that they can easily queer something in it, because the thing is, there is *no harm* in that

**Michael:** Right!

**Brennan:** True

**Nay:** It's like the harm comes from being excluded. The harm comes from things not being created for you, things not being created with you in mind, things not, you know, being created for your benefit. And it's like, sure we can argue or people can argue with someone. Or if like the dude bros that love *Elm Street* wanna be like, "Well, this isn't for you," well of course you feel that way. You feel that way about everything. You get to decide what is for who and who is for what all of the fucking time, so--

**Michael:** Right. And also, "Fuck you." Who cares if I like it?

**Nay:** Yeah. Are you worried that you're a little gay 'cause we like the same movies?

**Michael:** Exactly. Yeah!

**Nay:** You know? "Oh, this is your favorite movie, too? Maybe we should watch it together with our dicks out."

**Michael:** Yeah. "Shirtless. Touchin' tips." (laughs)

**Nay:** Yeah (laughs) It's like, have you seen that gif on Instagram--

**Michael:** Is that touchin'? I hope

**Nay:** That you can use, from *Nightmare on Elm Street*?

**Michael:** *No!*

**Nay:** That's like the butts touching?

**Michael:** *No!*

**Sam:** Oh yeah

**Nay:** Yeah. It's (chuckles) I'm like--

**Michael:** Where did you find that *Nightmare 3* gif that you posted today?

**Nay:** On Twitter?

**Michael:** Because I fuckin' loved that

**Brennan:** That was beautiful

**Michael:** Right? I've never seen that before

**Nay:** Twitter

**Michael:** It was just a Twitter search?

**Nay:** Yeah. You know I'm tryin' to learn Twitter and I don't know nothin'

**Michael:** You're getting really good at it

**Nay:** But I'm tryin' to learn. Yeah, take it.

**Michael:** Yeah. It's no harm.

**Nay:** Take it. People are upset because they are used to making the rules and they are used to making the boundaries and the lines and, you know?

**Michael:** Well, it's like those people that protest against queer rights--

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

'*Michael: **Who for some reason get so*** **fuckin** pissed, it's almost like *me* having equal protection makes them feel like they're losing something

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm. Because they're telling on themselves!

**Michael:** Which is a fucking crazy--

**Brennan:** Yeah

**Sam:** *Yes*

**Nay:** *They're telling* on themselves

**Michael:** They are!

**Nay:** It's like, you know, when Obama was President and people were like, "Well this is really scary for us because is this Black man gonna keep Black people in mind before everyone else?" And it's like, "Oh, is that what y'all do?"

**Michael:** (laughs) Right!

**Nay:** "Are you saying that that's something that one might do?"

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** "Because if that's what you're admitting, you *won't* admit that you are doing that also. You're just fucking racist."

**Michael:** Right!

**Nay:** If you think that *anyone* isn't putting certain things or their own self-interest first, like that's just being a human being

**Michael:** Right. Yeah, it is just like mass telling on yourself

**Nay:** Yeah, you're telling on yourself

**Michael:** When people are like, "I don't want you to have the same protections I have," well, that doesn't harm you. So you're either just admitting you're a homophobe or a fucking idiot

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** Take your pick. You're probably both

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm!

**Michael:** So, yeah. It's just that's the thing I've found mostly in the last year or two, especially on social media is just a lot of people telling on themselves--

**Nay:** Oh yeah

**Michael:** Unintentionally

**Nay:** Oh yeah

**Sam:** Yeah. Yep

**Michael:** (laughs) They sure do, right?

**Sam:** They sure do

**Sam:** If I can specifically reference--

**Michael:** Yeah! Please!

**Sam:** We've been having an ongoing conversation about *Hellraiser* and I know that my opinion is not popular, necessarily, even within the gay community. But I do feel that a movie that was *helmed* by a queer filmmaker; we have tons of things that have been written by us, but this is a very big series, and we don't have a lot like that

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Sam:** So when it gets removed from us, I feel like it's being straightwashed into this--

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Sam:** *Without* having read the script, without not knowing where it's going, but knowing whose hands it's going into--

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Sam:** I feel like it's okay to speak up and say, "Hey."

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** It's okay to question, yeah

**Nay:** *Yes*

**Sam:** I want to say something. And I want to demand the change that I wanna see. And I'm not expecting there to be a change, but if we don't keep asking for it, they're never gonna give it to us

**Nay:** Exactly! Exactly

**Sam:** And if you didn't like the way I said it, sorry not sorry, because I would try it the other way, but everybody else has been trying it the other way and nothing's changed.

**Nay:** Also guess what. Queer people *die* for this shit

**Sam:** (sighs) A-fucking-men

**Michael:** That's the thing. No one's fucking gotten anywhere with being polite their whole goddamn life

**Nay:** Yeah

**Sam:** Polite things don't get retweets

**Michael:** And Nay, I'm still thinking about what you just said. Like, *oooof*

**Nay:** They won't give you *anything*

**Michael:** Like people do *die* for this

**Nay:** People die for that shit. It's like, you know, when talk about cultural appropriation comes up or people are like, "What's the big deal?" And it's like, "You *do* realize that I'm not mad about your cornrows. I'm not mad about your hairstyle or that you like, you know, gelled down your baby hairs,"--

**Michael:** 'Cause you're at fucking Coachella

**Nay:** Yeah. Like, that's not it. The point is that when I do that, I don't advance for that. I'm seen as "hood" for that, or like, I'm seen as "less than" and you're allowed to do this and maintain your integrity and your genius

**Michael:** Yeah, it's not your "Coachella look"

**Nay:** Yeah, no, it's not the fact that you braided your hair. Like, I get it, you wanna braid your fuckin' hair, but it's the fact that, along with this, you're allowed to act *all kinds of ways*

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm!

**Nay:** You are allowed to speak to me a certain way, you are allowed to do this and still move on in your life that I'm not allowed to. Literally there are many states in which I can get not hired for a job due to my hairstyle

**Michael:** Right

**Nay:** It's *not* the same thing. No one is mad about your Baby Phat velour sweatsuit. That's not what it is.

**Michael:** I always-- when I was on Instagram, I'd always not say laugh, 'cause it's not funny, but every year around Coachella, I'd be like, "Okay, what gays are gonna tell on themselves this year by having their hair done in braids?" 'Cause there was always one white gay boy that would post like, "Got my hair done for Coachella!" And it's like, "Dude. *Really*?"

**Nay:** (chortles) Yeah

**Michael:** "You have no idea that this is not the look?" But it was always a white guy named Drake or something

**Nay:** (to Michael) You're stupid (laughs)

**Michael:** But it was always just like-- in a lot of ways it's like, "Keep tellin' on yourselves, people."

**Nay:** Yeah

**Brennan:** That's also how I feel about the fact that a lot of queer terminology has been appropriated by straight memes and things. Like we're talking about "Yaaaaaas" and "throwing shade" and all that stuff, and to be clear, most of that stuff was created by *Black* queer people--

**Nay:** Yes

**Sam:** Mmm-hmm

**Brennan:** So we also stole it from them

**Michael:** Yeah!

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Brennan:** It's a whole vicious, heinous cycle, but I definitely don't want the straights to have it either

**Nay:** No! They can't have it! You know why? Because if you say, "Yaaaaaas!" in a restaurant, homeboy over there might be like, "That fuckin' faggot over there is dying later."

**Brennan:** Yep

**Nay:** Like, we *die* for these things

**Brennan:** That's so-- yeah!

**Nay:** And that's why it's *ours*. Like, *I*, yeah. It's ours, y'know?

**Brennan:** No, there are--

**Sam:** Yeah

**Michael:** It pisses me off when anybody says like, "Why does it have to, why do we have to do identity politics?" It's like, "Because you fuckin' make my identity political just 'cause you feel like it."

**Nay:** Yeah

**Brennan:** Yeah. Just existing is a political statement

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** Yeah. "Just existing is a political statement to you. So yeah. That's why we *do* have identity politics, you fuckin' prick."

**Sam:** Or when it's like, "Can't there just be a filmmaker and not a queer filmmaker?"

**Michael:** Right

**Nay:** No.

**Sam:** "Just let them be an artist."

**Nay:** No.

**Sam:** No.

**Nay:** No. Because being queer is what makes them a great artist, and you, by saying that, you are saying that just being an artist or just being a filmmaker is the standard, and when someone is queer, or someone is Black or someone is a woman, that that deviates from the norm--

**Michael:** Exactly

**Nay:** And *although* we *know* it's a deviation from the norm, because we know who *normally* does this shit--

**Michael:** Well, we know what filmmaker means: "white male"

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** That's what that means. You know what I mean?

**Nay:** Yeah. But it's like, this is why it's fucking important to me, because these words, these things that make my existence political, these things that throw all these glass ceilings above my head, we fight for it, we die for it

**Michael:** Yeah

**Brennan:** That is really true. I mean, look. I constantly want to recognize and acknowledge the fact that I am a cis white man and that comes with a lot of privilege. But also, as an out gay person there are, I mean, there are fewer spaces where, you know, I can *hide* my minority status

or oppressed status or whatever, and that's all fine and dandy. But there are literally places where you *can* get killed for being who you are

**Nay:** Oh yeah

**Brennan:** There are places where you don't get to exist

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Brennan:** My boyfriend and I were on a road trip, and we stopped at a motel and we got a room with a single bed. And the lady who was checking us in was like, she just thought we were poor college students--

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Brennan:** And she's like, "Oh, don't worry, I'll upgrade you to a room with two beds!" And it's like, "No. We don't…"

**Nay:** "Good. We'll fuck on both of 'em."

**Sam:** Yeah! (laughs)

**Michael:** "Can you put them together, bitch?" (laughs)

**Brennan:** I mean, spoiler alert, we took the *bigger* room--

**Nay:** Yeah!

**Michael:** I hope you fucked loud all weekend

**Nay:** (annoyed) *Okay.* Jesus Christ

**Brennan:** I don't fuck and tell, Michael, but it was only one of the beds. We put our stuff on the other one

**Nay:** You have to set the equipment out, you know? I need room.

**Michael:** (laughter)

**Nay:** Michael's leg is in the air

**Brennan:** Oh my God. My parents listen to this, but look--

**Nay:** Do they really?

**Brennan:** Yeah.

**Nay:** Awwww!

**Michael:** (sighs) Oh, okay

**Brennan:** Shout-out to them, they're the best

**Michael:** We can edit this out

**Brennan:** No, it's fine

**Nay:** Brennan's parents!

**Brennan:** I am *twenty-four* years old

**Michael:** Yeah. Hi, Kleins!

**Brennan:** *They know*. We haven't talked about it, but they know

**Michael:** Okay

**Nay:** I'm dying! That's so cute!

**Brennan:** Oh yeah, my Mom and Dad will text me and be like, "Oh, I really liked that episode!"

**Nay:** Oh. My. God!

**Michael:** That's really cool!

**Nay:** I hope my Mom never learns what a podcast is

**Michael:** Honestly, same

**Nay:** None of you better fuckin' tell her

**Brennan:** No, my parents are super-hip and cool and they know how to download podcasts and they listen in their cars. It's very fancy

**Michael:** Well, hello. Klein family

**Nay:** *Yeah*

**Brennan:** But anyway, this check-in lady, it literally never crossed her mind that a person *could* be gay

**Nay:** (amused) *Yes!*

**Brennan:** It's just not something that occurred to her

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Brennan:** And obviously, I mean I did feel a *little* tense--

**Michael:** It's a microaggression

**Brennan:** Or unsafe in that situation--

**Nay:** Of course

**Brennan:** Where it's like, "If she found out? Who would she tell?"

**Nay:** Right, right

**Brennan:** "How would she react to it? Would we be kicked out of this space?"

**Nay and Michael:** Mmm-hmm

**Brennan:** And obviously that wasn't like a dangerous situation, but it was a complete erasure

**Nay:** It still *fills* you with feeling

**Brennan:** Yeah

**Nay:** It's like, I find myself in those moments a lot with my own family where it's like they've made an assumption that you know, circles back around to whatever norm that they're used to, and it's like, "(sighs) Do I not say anything and let this moment pass and you leave me the fuck alone and you assume that it's not affecting my pocket so whatever." *Or*, because I'm so tired of that erasure, and for a lot of folks who are able to live away from their birth families, you live your life and fight every day to be who you are and  it's hard sometimes to go back and be like, "Okay, I'm hiding again." But, that *is* dangerous. I feel sometimes people think, and this goes for a lot of microaggressions, it's like, "Oh, someone didn't die, then it's not dangerous."

**Brennan:** It's like the Roxane Gay thing you were talking about--

**Nay:** Yes

**Brennan:** Where it could be worse

**Nay:** It could be worse. It's like, "Yeah, it could. It will be in my community. And maybe you think it's funny that you think that these two women who are in wedding dresses are best friends, but it's not fucking funny. And they're fuckin' later. Fucking wives, okay?"

**Sam:** To circle back to the horror community and how this affects *us*, I feel like that's such a good point, because it doesn't have to be *death* to have an effect

**Nay:** Yeah

**Sam:** I mean, people do fucking *die*

**Nay:** Yeah

**Sam:** I don't wanna-- and I don't have to drive out of state, even though that is such a good example and I *totally* have fucking been there. To experience--

**Brennan:** Also, that was in California. For the record

**Sam:** (chuckles) Oh my God

**Nay:** Central Cali?

**Brennan:** Northern California

**Sam:** Santa Ana, just down there

**Michael:** Riverside

**Sam:** But you know, it could be *anywhere* and that's the point

**Nay:** Yeah. Absolutely

**Sam:** For me, in this industry, something I've noticed that infuriates me, and also I have so much sympathy or *empathy* for is making ourselves meeker so that we can fit into a larger film culture

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Sam:** So, I feel like, and a lot of my queer friends, we sand off our edges when it comes to our opinions about films--

**Brennan:** Yeah!

**Sam:** Because I don't wanna not please somebody because it's already so fucking hard being gay and trying to have a voice

**Michael:** Right

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Sam:** Or, "Yeah, I guess that's okay. I don't *need* that main character to be gay." I had something that got pretty far and then the decision was made to make the fourth character, "You can make the fourth character down gay." And it's like the reaction like, "You're right! That's still representation."

**Brennan:** That's telling you what you're worth

**Sam:** *Yes*. I think at the end of the day, what am I doing if I'm just saying, "Yeah, that'll do for now," other than sanding off all my edges? I wanna have some edge. *Something*.

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** Well, and politeness doesn't-- that person that said that to you, by being polite to them, they don't learn shit.

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** They tell that to the next person they see that puts the gay character first or second--

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** So this is just going back to your point, if you presented a little bit rough per se, like you said, on Twitter or whatever? *Good*.

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** Because not telling Mister Executive, I mean I can't think of anything else to say other than, "Go fuck yourself," right now, but he's gonna tell you, the next person, "Make your gay character four or five." And then the list, it might go further down the list every time, unless you say, unless somebody says something--

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** And the *intentions* may not be bad, but at the end of the day, he still doesn't know shit

**Nay:** Yeah, impact

**Michael:** Yeah

**Sam:** When a new movie comes out and we see that side character who's gay, more often than not, we're not gonna say anything about how it's not enough, or how it was wrong. We just don't. And that's actually why I was nervous about joining the podcast, 'cause I'm like, "Ah, shit! Am I gonna get...? I don't wanna like--"

**Brennan:** Alienate

**Sam:** Well, one, I mean, out myself as being someone who's really unhappy with the current state of representation, and two, you know, step on some polite toes, because you guys are so nice. (chuckles) But at the end of the day, there's so much fucking work to be done

**Michael:** "Just be thankful someone listens!" (laughs)

**Nay:** (annoyed) Michael… That's not true!

**Michael:** It's not true. We have a good, loyal following

**Nay:** Yeah. They're the best

**Michael:** People from all over the world

**Brennan:** And look, people actually tweet at us, and you guys do not understand how little that happens in the podcasting world. Thank you everyone so much for actually commenting on the episodes, and--

**Michael:** Yeah, we really love our audience.

**Sam:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** And I wasn't making a joke at our audience, I was making a joke at myself

**Nay:** Michael, yeah, we know

**Michael:** Yeah

**Brennan:** "You're no one!"

**Michael:** So back to *Nightmare 3*

**Brennan:** Oh yeah!

**Michael:** I love when we get in those kind of conversations from based on watching a movie. But there's a few things I wanted to talk--

**Brennan:** Yeah yeah

**Michael:** Because we should actually wrap it up soon. One, this was the introduction to "High-budget Kill Freddy". And also, comedian Freddy

**Brennan:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** Two of the bigger hallmarks of the series from this point on started in this film, and I kind of wanted to discuss both, because I think they're both handled with a very deft hand here, where, and it might be because it is the first of the genre where the kills are a little outrageous--

**Nay:** Oh. My. God.

**Michael:** But that fuckin' mouth that's eatin' Patricia Arquette--

**Nay:** *Yes!*

**Michael:** Which is clearly an automatron, it's so amazing

**Nay:** Oh. It's amazing

**Brennan:** The big Freddy dong?

**Michael:** Yeah. The TV kill, like, all that stuff. Do you appreciate upgrade Freddy here?

**Nay:** Yes

**Michael:** Because it does go along with the rest of the movie, which is upgrading the characters' strengths, our protagonists essentially having superpowers and banding together, so Freddy had to be up, too--

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm!

**Michael:** In order to either a.) defeat them, or make it a challenge

**Nay:** Freddy had to step his pussy up, y'know?

**Michael:** Yeah! (laughs)

**Sam:** *Yaaas!*

**Michael:** And *do you*, my question to you is, do you think the kills and the comedy in this film were a.) good or bad and b.) were they the beginning of the end of serious *Nightmare on Elm Street*? Loaded question. Ernie? (chuckles) Nay, what do you think?

**Nay:** You know, I was thinking when I was watching it, I was like, I don't care what someone's sign is. What's your favorite kill in this movie?

**Michael:** Ooooh! Good question!

**Nay:** That's what I wanna know. Yeah. And so I, definitely when I was younger, I didn't think the deaths were funny. Like they're funny now, but--

**Michael:** Oh no

**Brennan:** Well, this movie has a *nasty* streak

**Nay:** Yeah, this shit is nuts

**Michael:** I only find the deaths funny in the sense that I laugh as a protection mechanism

**Nay:** Yeah!

**Michael:** Because watching it this time, some of them freaked me out. Like Phil's death?

**Nay:** *Whoa*

**Michael:** That ligament shit? I literally was cringing last night. I'm like, "This is hard to watch."

**Nay:** The puppet?

**Michael:** It was painful

**Sam:** Okay, "Welcome to prime time, bitch," though. That's a good laugh

**Michael:** That's hilarious

**Sam:** That's a real funny kill

**Michael:** And it's a fucking *good* line

**Nay:** Oh my God, so funny. Ahhhh!

**Brennan:** That line is the reason Freddy became what he was for a minute

**Sam:** Of course

**Nay:** *Yo!* I was like--

**Michael:** Because it's so good, it's like chasing a high, the writers of the rest of the series up until *New Nightmare* were trying to match that vibe

**Brennan:** That's why he said, "Bitch," so many times

**Michael:** Uh-huh

**Nay:** Absolutely, because-- and also, is Freddy our catty queen?

**Sam:** Yes

**Michael:** Michael Varrati always says Freddy is just someone doing drag

**Brennan:** Oh yeah

**Nay:** Yeah. Come back, Michael. Come back Michael Varrati

**Michael:** *Oh, soon*

**Nay:** Yeah

**Brennan:** Nay, which was your favorite kill then?

**Nay:** I mean, I personally love to shoot tongues out of my mouth and tie someone to a bed with it. Like, that would be so amazing

**Brennan:** Ooooh!

**Michael:** (Joey) somehow survives that. I forgot--

**Nay:** Yeah, that's true

**Michael:** That he survives that

**Nay:** Probably the TV

**Brennan:** That is a good one

**Michael:** It is a good one. I noticed, I think the TV one's great. The ligament one's tough.

**Nay:** (whispers) Ugh, that fucking puppet

**Michael:** I feel like Taryn's, watching it now--

**Brennan:** That death is *challenging*

**Michael:** It's challenging, but also none of the needles actually hit her arm when you watch it close enough these days. It's like a very lazy--

**Brennan:** The curse of Blu-ray?

**Michael:** Yeah. Also, Will's death is a little lame in the sense that there's no sound effect to him getting stabbed

**Brennan:** Oh, Will the magician, right?

**Michael:** Yeah

**Brennan:** His whole thing's kinda lame

**Sam:** *Yeah…*

**Michael:** And he just gets stabbed, right?

**Brennan:** Mmm-hmm

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** And he's just dead?

**Brennan:** Because there's that cool *Changeling* wheelchair that's chasing him?

**Michael:** Yeah. Which is super-cool

**Brennan:** It's just such an anti-climactic--

**Michael:** It is. Like all this cool wizard power and then he just--

**Brennan:** Well he can't do anything with it

**Michael:** Yeah, he does it once and then that's it. What about you, Sam?

**Sam:** (sighs) The TV death. And I don't wanna just say it again--

**Michael:** It is the best though

**Sam:** And this is why. The setup for that, in the giving her permission to stay up later--

**Nay:** Yes

**Sam:** It implicates someone else in her death--

**Nay:** *Yes*

**Sam:** In a way that I think that, for me, the way that mental health in a psych ward setting is treated in this film is surprisingly accurate--

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Sam:** In a *sea* of films that get it wrong

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** I mean, *Carrie 2*

**Sam:** Ohhh

**Michael:** Guy walking around with a fire extinguisher petting it?

**Brennan:** (laughing) Oh yeah!

**Sam:** I mean, they also had the Joker there with (Rachel's mom), so what are you gonna--? But this feels, this to me feels like the closest to an experience that I've been a part of, and so I'm like, "Okay. I *get* this. I feel this." And I feel like asking somebody for that extra time or that little bit of extra when you need help

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Sam:** It's your first instinct to ask for it, and they need to say no. And he didn't. And she's dead. And to me, that one had so much gravity, it was hard to watch.

**Michael:** And I know all their deaths kind of played into their pasts and stuff, but (Jennifer's) and Taryn's are really hard, because--

**Sam:** Mmmm

**Michael:** They really, really, Freddy does use their lives--

**Sam:** Yes

**Michael:** For Taryn it's her thing, something she was super proud of getting over, which was her addiction issues. And then for Jennifer, it's like her *dream*. He kills her with her fucking dream. Which is so sad! Fuck you, Freddy!

**Sam:** He looked at her and said, "Why don't you make the gay character fourth down?"

**Michael:** Oh, and also, by the way? Zsa Zsa Gabor? Gay.

**Brennan:** Oh yeah

**Nay:** Oh, yeah

**Michael:** Makes it gay

**Nay:** The words, the saying, "Zsa Zsa Gabor". That's how I knew-- when I was young I was obsessed with *all* the Gabors

**Michael:** Uh-huh. She's the one that slapped a cop, right? Zsa Zsa?

**Nay:** Oh, and *Green Acres*, I watched all that shit. and even just saying, "Zsa Zsa," if you say it five times in the mirror--

**Michael:** (softly) Zsa Zsa… (normal voice) she slaps you across the face like she did that cop!

**Nay:** Yes. Goals

**Michael:** (to Sam) You know she slapped a cop? It was *amazing*

**Sam:** This is all news to me

**Michael:** Yeah. Traffic stop

**Nay:** Iconic

**Sam:** *Oh my God*

**Michael:** Yeah, he was talking, treatin' her like shit, so she fuckin' hauled off and slapped him

**Nay:** *Yooo*

**Sam:** Incredible

**Nay:** Sounds about *white*

**Michael:** I was gonna say, it plays into what we were talking about earlier

**Brennan:** Yeah

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** About how it's cool that she slapped him, but she was white

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** So she paid a fine

**Nay:** You know, the last time my Mom got pulled over, which pisses me off, because she looks like this little old white woman and is like, endearing, and the cop was like, "You know you ran that stop sign?" And she was like, (disbelieving) "Did I?" And he was like, "Well, I think you did."

**Brennan:** Oh!

**Nay:** Mom, fuck you. She got out of the ticket. He was like, "Ma'am I think you ran the red light." "Oh honey, I don't know! I've lived here twenty-seven years. I know that there's a stop sign there."

**Michael:** Ahhhh, she's workin' that man over

**Brennan:** Oh my God

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** So, what do you guys think, though, as far as do you think they're responsible for the shitty follow-ups after or you can't blame the quality and goodness of (*Nightmare*) *3* on the rest, on (*Nightmare*) *4, 5,* and *6*

**Sam:** Fuck you for saying that there's shitty follow-ups after. And I know that we disagree about this, but *Nightmare on Elm Street 4*, I love that movie

**Brennan:** I love that movie!

**Sam:** It is fucking queer

**Nay:** Yeah

**Brennan:** Yeah

**Sam:** I think that it is a, which is a whole other episode and not gonna go there--

**Michael:** I haven't seen (*Nightmare*) *4* in a long time

**Brennan:** It's literally about identity and self-actualization

**Sam:** So, there are plenty of other installments of this movie that are worth watching and I love that this movie, I think, is directly responsible for it. So yes, maybe I agree with you, but I disagree with your feeling about it

**Michael:** You don't look at it negatively

**Sam:** I think it birthed something beautiful. And we would not have had the *New Nightmare* we have now if it had been made instead

**Brennan:** Absolutely

**Sam:** The *New Nightmare* we got was *because* of what came after *Part 3*

**Michael:** Absolutely!

**Sam:** And I *love* it

**Michael:** I love that we got *New Nightmare* from *Part 3*. I'm not a fan of *4, 5* and *6*. I haven't seen them all in awhile, but I'm not a fan of super-duper comedy Freddy.

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** I think the movies are actually more fun--

**Sam:** You don't like (Freddy) on a broomstick circling a house?

**Brennan:** I love that

**Michael:** I'm not a huge fan of that, but bless you for trying

**Brennan:** Look, the seeds of that have been present in the franchise since *Part 1*. Think of the part in the alley when he's stretching his arms out to get Tina

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** *True*

**Brennan:** Think of when he chops off his own fingers, like, "*This is God!"*

**Michael:** I guess it plays differently 'cause you haven't seen it yet, it's new and it's different

**Brennan:** Yeah, no. It's darker and scarier, but he's toying with his victims like a cat with a mouse

**Michael:** Yeah

**Brennan:** He pulls off his own face at one point--

**Michael:** True!

**Brennan:** And his skull is like, "Blalalalala," with his little tongue

**Michael:** That's true! Good call

**Sam:** Based on age though, this is really interesting, because for me, when I grew up, my intro to Freddy was those commercials for Nine-hundred-number Freddy--

**Brennan:** Oh God yeah

**Sam:** And the cereal, and the toy that you press the button, my friend had one

**Michael:** Oh my God

**Sam:** I knew Freddy as like a comedy icon--

**Brennan:** Uh-huh

**Michael:** Yeah

**Sam:** And so when I went back--

**Michael:** He was mainstream

**Sam:** Exactly. That was my entry point. So when I *first* saw *Part 1*, I was super disappointed 'cause I was like, "That's not Freddy."

**Nay:** Mmmmm

**Sam:** So for some of us, later Freddy *was* an entry point

**Michael:** Isn't it interesting? Because it's like Wes Craven would be like, "Sam, that was the first one."

**Sam:** And now obviously I live for *Part 1*

**Michael:** But no, I know what you mean

**Sam:** That was my first reaction to that, yeah

**Michael:** Yeah. That's why anyone that says that *Scream 3* is their favorite in the franchise is because that's the first one they saw

**Sam:** Nobody says that, though

**Michael:** There's a handful

**Michael:** There's a lot more I wanted to talk about, but we're getting close to the end. But I do wanna play a clip about Freddy's genesis

**Brennan:** (disgusted) Oh God. Okay.

**(Brennan plays the clip)**

**GORDON:** What was this place?

**AMANDA:** Purgatory. Fashioned by the hands of men...

**Nay:** (softly) Oh, I love it

**AMANDA:** Twisted, lonely souls...

**Michael:** I love the music

**AMANDA:** The worst of the criminally insane…

**Brennan:** (softly) That's so gothic

**AMANDA:** Were locked up in here like animals

**GORDON:** This whole facility was shut down in the Forties, wasn't it? Some sort of scandal?

**AMANDA:** A young girl on the staff was accidentally locked in here over the holidays

**Michael:** (softly) Oh-ho

**Brennan:** (softly, as Mrs. Voorhees) "A young boy drowned…"

**AMANDA:** Inmates kept her hidden for days. She was raped. Hundreds of times. When they found her, she was barely alive. And with child. That girl was Amanda Krueger. Her child…

**Michael:** (softly) Freddy (chuckles)

**AMANDA:** The bastard son of a hundred maniacs

**Michael:** Such a great line, "The bastard son of a hundred maniacs."

**Brennan:** That is really good

**Michael:** So I mean, I don't really have much to say here, have a discussion, but I just felt like we needed to play that clip, because it is just such a fuckin' bonkers almost like, I don't wanna say a retcon, 'cause they're not taking away anything that Wes created in the first movie. They're just kind of taking the backstory back even further

**Brennan:** Mmm-hmm.

**Michael:** But, necessary, question mark? (chuckles)

**Sam:** I hate it so fucking much. And it's funny right, because I just saw it watching it for this and yet I forget that that's there.

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Sam:** Because in my head, it's like, "Boooooooooop!" on that part and that's all I hear 'cause I don't need a rape that results in a monster.

**Brennan:** Oh yeah

**Sam:** You know what happens when a woman gets impregnated by a rape? There's a baby that needs taking care of! And that's not any more of a monster-- I dunno. It's like, the creation of that being the creation of Freddy? No. I mean, I get the intention, but they're wrong.

**Brennan:** That's a really good point. I think the *arch* craziness of that line is interesting as a curio, but yeah, the actual intention behind it is really painful and rough

**Michael:** What do you think, Nay?

**Nay:** Ohhh, unfortunately I was thinking about Georgia and criminalizing abortion and--

**Michael:** And miscarriages at this point

**Nay:** And miscarriages, and how, yeah. Anyway. It took me down a really sad path

**Michael:** I mean, if anything, there's a way to look at this "son of a hundred maniacs" as like a pro-choice; had (Amanda) aborted that baby… no Freddy

**Nay:** Yeah. (chuckling) Wheee!

**Brennan:** Ehhhh. I will say this. In a following scene, in a scene that follows that, Nancy does say the line, "Assuming your mysterious nun is right," and that line is camp. You could wear that line to the Met Gala

**Nay:** Hot.

**Michael:** So great. "Mysterious nun."

**Sam:** Also, (Nancy's) look at the funeral, though. I'm sorry, I *know* we're wrapping up, but--

**Michael:** Oh, *it's amazing*!

**Sam:** Fucking serving looks left and right

**Michael:** It's like Joan fucking Collins

**Brennan:** Speaking of camp

**Sam:** I can't believe she had the *audacity* to show up in that wool cape, wrapped around, that full hat--

**Michael:** Oh, it's totally--

**Brennan:** *Yeah!*

**Sam:** *Give me everything, Nancy!*

**Michael:** The night before they designed that, the costume designer watched *Dynasty,* watched *Dallas*, *Falcon Crest* and the fucking *Colbys*: *Dynasty Two* or whatever the spinoff was

**Nay:** *Yes!*

**Michael:** Speaking of Nancy, we *do* need to talk about her a little bit, so we might run a little long. But her return is amazing. Right?

**Brennan:** Oh yeah

**Michael:** It's such a smart decision

**Sam:** Absolutely

**Nay:** Oh yeah

**Michael:** How they chose to have her character enter felt very natural--

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** And it actually felt very natural to who she was previously. And I was looking for just stuff from when the movie came out, trying to find stuff, and I would have to say that she had to be a big reason why the movie was such a huge success, right? Like, financially, do you think? Do you think it had-- three years later, was Heather Langenkamp such a known name? 'Cause if you're making forty-five million dollars on a slasher movie in 1987, that's gotta be crossover appeal, that's not just horror fans going to see that movie

**Brennan:** Well, I don't think it's Heather Langenkamp, I think it's Nancy. And that's what Wes Craven's *New Nightmare* is about, it's about how Heather Langenkamp doesn't really exist in the culture, but Nancy is this huge icon

**Michael:** Do you think it was like Jamie Lee Curtis with *Halloween* (2018) last year? Do you think it had, on a less grand scale, do you think that's why people saw it?

**Nay:** Mmmmm

**Michael:** I don't know, it's just a question I've always wondered: Why it blew up in *Part 3*

**Brennan:** Well, Jamie Lee Curtis is Jamie Lee Curtis

**Michael:** Right

**Brennan:** Heather Langenkamp is not Jamie Lee Curtis

**Michael:** True

**Brennan:** I mean, she's wonderful. I wish she was

**Michael:** But she's only three years removed from the first film at this point, though

**Brennan:** I mean--

**Michael:** Did they *tout* her return, do you think? I was trying to find shit.

**Nay:** I don't know. Yeah.

**Michael:** It opened at number one, it made ten million dollars its opening weekend. Like, was it the special effects? I mean, Patricia Arquette wasn't known yet

**Sam:** *Three years* and (Heather Langenkamp) was sporting such a mom look!

**Brennan:** I know!

**Sam:** I was so into that!

**Nay:** When you know, you know

**Michael:** Heather Langenkamp? Nancy?

**Sam:** Oh yeah

**Brennan:** She would've been like, twenty-three

**Sam:** Yeah. She was going like, full maternal

**Michael:** And (Nancy) says in the movie at one point she says all her friends died six years ago

**Sam:** Yeah, there's a bit of a timeline jump

**Michael:** She's supposed to be *twenty-three*? Maybe twenty-four? But yeah, sporty mom look, yeah

**Sam:** But it we're looking at slasher franchises or even just horror franchises in general, I mean, *Friday the 13th* kills off our Final Girl immediately in *Part 2*. We do have Jamie Lee Curtis in *Halloween* (1978) *1* and *Halloween II*, but then nothing further, so I think that having a *Part 3* where we thought-- especially a disappointing *Part 2*, where it's like, "Guy, will they ever come back?"

**Michael:** That's the thing--

**Sam:** Can you imagine when studios poured that much money, like even more money into a sequel and it actually delivered? That happened here

**Michael:** Well, that's the thing, because what happens is the sequel usually performs based on people's feelings of the previous film

**Sam:** Yeah

**Michael:** So people hated (*Nightmare on Elm Street*) *2*, so for *3* to make twice as much money and be critically adored? Is pretty wild. 'Cause especially in Eighty-seven, the slasher genre was pretty much dead at that point. I mean, Jason *Six*, *Friday the 13th Part VI* had come out by then and only done fifteen million. (*Friday the 13th*) *Part VII* hadn't been released yet. But by Eighty-seven, all the franchises were kind of dead. *Halloween* hadn't returned yet, but it would next year and only made like eighteen million bucks. So for (*NOES 3*) to make forty-five million, I'm just curious. I wish I could've found something

**Sam:** Well, first off, people didn't hate *Nightmare on Elm Street 2*. Americans did, but in the UK, *Nightmare on Elm Street 2* came out before *Nightmare on Elm Street 1*

**Michael:** That's what you said, yeah

**Sam:** Yeah. I mean, (*NOES 2*) wasn't universally hated and I think that depends on what your access point was, kind of like what we talked about earlier. But also, I know they bring back Nancy--

**Michael:** To make forty-five million domestically--

**Sam:** Oh, absolutely!

**Michael:** Off of a disappointing feeling of (*NOES*) 2 is huge. You think it was Freddy?

**Sam:** Your point is still there, I just always wanna step up and let people know, because I think that with--

**Michael:** You're stepping your pussy up

**Sam:** I am. I don't. I don't think it was Nancy, I think it was Freddy. I think we'd never gotten a Freddy before, and I think everybody looked at that and they were like, "How the fuck do we crack this?" And that's why we got *Hello Mary Lou*, that's why we got *Leprechaun*, that's why we got all these talking, *terrible* talking characters, a slew of them--

**Michael:** Freddys? Yeah.

**Sam:** Because Freddy's the only one that nailed it. Because Freddy is a drag queen. Freddy was doing a performance and he can do multiple characters. But nobody else quite got that magic and that's what (*NOES*) *3* has

**Michael:** And (*NOES*) *3* like upper the fuck out of the budget.

**Sam:** Yes

**Michael:** I think (*NOES*) *1* was one-and-a-half (million dollars), I think (*NOES*) *Part 2* was maybe two (million dollars)? And then (*NOES*) *3* was thirteen-point-five (million dollars) I think

**Sam:** But I think it's the thing you're hesitant about, the Freddy factor, the thing that gives you all the other things

**Michael:** Well no, that's what I mean. Is it the Freddy factor, you think? It's just wild. It's really interesting when you're doing research on it and realize just how big this movie actually was, like, not just in the franchise but *in* cinema that year as a whole. It's pretty cool. And then (*NOES*) *4* made even more money than (*NOES*) *3*

**Brennan:** Yeah, wasn't (*NOES* *4)* the highest grossing entry in a slasher franchise until *Freddy Versus Jason*?

**Michael:** Until *Scream* (1996)

**Brennan:** Until *Scream*, you're right

**Michael:** *Scream* and *Scream 2* were one and two until *Halloween* (2018) came out

**Michael:** One more thing about Nancy and then we should wrap it up. What do you feel about her dying? How do you feel about her dying? I don't like it, personally. I mean, I think it makes sense to the story. I think it was supposed to be meant as like a passing of the torch, and I think they thought Patricia Arquette would take over the franchise at that point, but then didn't let her fuckin' do (*NOES*) *Part 4* 'cause she was pregnant. I don't know if that was the filmmaker's decision or hers, but I'm gonna choose to think it was the patriarchy. So I get kind of why. I couldn't find if Heather Langenkamp said, "Kill me. I don't wanna do any more of these," but I'm not a fan, (to X) you just mentioned *Friday* (*the 13th*) *Part 2* and I'm totally cool with the Randy Meeks of it all, dying mid-way through *Scream 2* as like a supporting character. But I don't like when franchises kill off their lead. It really bums me out

**Nay:** Yeah

**Brennan:** That is, it is really nihilistic

**Michael:** It's a hard death, too!

**Brennan:** It's a thing of, "You can survive this horrible trauma, but it's still always going to claim you?"

**Michael:** "Your fate is death. Always."

**Nay:** Yeah

**Brennan:** And that's kind of the narrative that's accidentally happens through these--

**Nay:** Yeah

**Brennan:** And that is brutal. I don't agree with that

**Michael:** I also don't think Nancy would fall for that

**Sam:** No

**Michael:** I don't think she would believe that's her dad

**Sam:** No. Not at all. Not a woman who would wear that to a funeral, no. She would not fall for that

**Michael:** And then fight in a pink sweater and grey sweatpants. Girl had it

**Sam:** She knows what the fuck is going on. *They're* wrong, and in our version, she is alive. And that's why *New Nightmare* works so well

**Michael:** I mean it does work so well because (Wes Craven) brought her back from the dead

**Sam:** I *do* think

**Brennan:** She looks like an even hotter mess in that one

**Sam:** She fucking does

**Michael:** God, I *fucking* love *New Nightmare*

**Nay:** Me too

**Sam:** To bring this back, and maybe this is so easy because of how we recorded them, but Katt Shea said about *The Rage:.Carrie 2*, the reason she killed Rachel was because there's something poetic about death, and when you kill your characters like that, like she did with those two, not those two 'cause he survived, but it means that their love is pure. It makes it something you can look back at and say, "That ended there, so there's no question." And I think that with Nancy, maybe there's the idea that that's what's going on. She's a hero, and she gets a hero's death.

**Brennan:** Mmm-hmm

**Sam:** But I don't fuckin' want that. And maybe as people who have done so much surviving and done so much fighting, what we want more than anything is to see people continue to live

**Michael:** Right. And why does it always have to be a sacrifice that makes you remembered--

**Sam:** (sighs) *Garbage*

**Michael:** Or the *ultimate* goodness is sacrifice yourself? Why can't you do that and live?

**Brennan:** If we're getting geopolitical about it, isn't that just propaganda to get people to fight in wars, like, "a hero's death is an honorable one you should desire this so you can go fight in our wars."

**Michael:** True. What do you think, Nay?

**Nay:** Oh yeah. Absolutely. People. (sighs) They want you to feel good about getting tricked into what they want you to think

**Michael:** Fighting for them?

**Nay:** Yeah. And part of me feels good about the death because of how poetic it is and how it sets it up for *New Nightmare*

**Michael:** It is

**Nay:** But, I also agree that when you are in communities who fight for survival, sometimes it just feels so cathartic to see someone fight and win. Or someone to work hard and succeed. And so, yeah

**Michael:** I mean, I had forgot. I had seen this movie so many times and I had actually forgotten about the moment that (Nancy) actually does *stab* (Freddy) with his own claw

**Nay:** *Yes!*

**Michael:** Which is amazing!

**Nay:** Yes!

**Michael:** I was like, "Oh fuck yeah! I forgot about that!"

**Nay:** Yes

**Michael:** But just let--

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** Reshoot it, get her back in Patricia Arquette's arms and let her flutter her eyes open like, "I'm gonna make it." I dunno

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** It just would've been *so* cool. And then she could go away. She doesn't need to be in (*NOES*) *Part 4*!

**Brennan:** Yeah, she could be like Alice and just not show up in *Freddy's Dead*,be like, "Peace!"

**Michael:** Yeah! I dunno. It's disappointing when that happens

**Brennan:** Yeah

**Brennan:** One super-fast question before we go

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm?

**Brennan:** Do you think the Thai food in Springwood is any good?

**Michael:** (laughs) Um, no.

**Brennan:** Yeah. That's what I thought

**Sam:** Absolutely. It's the only place to eat. That's it

**Michael:** That Thai restaurant they were in in L.A. that they were *actually* in looked delicious

**Nay:** Right

**Michael:** I love that the first three movies are in California and then for some reason later in the series they decide it's in Ohio that the movies are set in? Anyway.

**Michael:** (to Nay) I should've asked you if you thought Nancy's death was "Yay or Nay"

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