Episode 42: "Seductive Genie" (w/ Keith Calder!)

*This week the Queerwolves (who are down a Michael) are joined by producer Keith Calder (You’re Next, Blair Witch, All the Boys Love Mandy Lane) to talk 2014’s THE GUEST.  This is the first time we’ve talked to someone about a movie they actually worked on, and Keith handled it like a pro! Brennan nerds out about the soundtrack, Sam would definitely open his door to Dan Stevens, and Nay comes to terms with the shower scene.   Plus, in Tea Time we sip on MIDSOMMAR, CULTURE SHOCK, THE MAGICIANS, and LOS ESPOOKYS![1]*

## **Shady Summaries**

Sam: A bunch of people ignore warning signs because a really hot guy is nice to them

Brennan: That's true of any room, basically

Keith: Yeah, that's accurate

Sam: Also, coincidentally that Shady Summary summarizes my last relationship

Nay: (softly) Oh

Sam: So

Nay:

Sam: But also The Guest

Nay: Yeah, I think we've all ignored red flags because something's attractive, or someone

Sam: Yeah

Nay: It's just what we do

Sam: Yeah

Nay: We really need more services for veterans. (laughs) We really, really do

Brennan: I'm not sure the world needed two more beautiful blond people, but thank you to The Guest for bringing me Dan Stevens and Maika Monroe

Sam: Mmm-hmm. Oh Yeah

Brennan: Did you prepare one, Keith? Or…?

Keith: You know, I didn't really prepare one

Brennan: Yeah

Keith: I would say that, I think this may get into what I wanna talk about with the movie

Brennan: Okay

Keith: I think that the movie, at its heart, it's about not trusting a toxic ally

Brennan: Oooh

Sam: Mmmm

Brennan: Oh, that's interesting

Nay: Deep. That's deep

## **Pride Float**

Nay: So, do you think this movie gets a Pride float?

Brennan: That's a question. That's quite a question. I'm gonna say, with all due respect to Keith, and I love The Guest. I'm gonna say no. Just because, while I think we've driven some really interesting conversations, especially ones that I didn't think we were gonna have about this movie specifically, for me, The Guest is a movie that's very much about surfaces and that's a good thing. That's literally what Keith was talking about. It's about fetishizing the world and this kind of omnidirectional lust in a certain way. But, I think it's possible and I think it's a good thing to dig deep into the movie, but I don't know that it's necessarily asking you to. It's there for the taking, but it's this glorious genre gem that's really beautiful and stunning

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: But I don't-- you need to do the work, and I don't know that it's necessarily doing all of the work to give that to everyone

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: If that makes sense

Nay: I hear that

Brennan: So I'm gonna say no. But, The Guest is a movie that, look, I have a playlist, (chuckling) it is very close to my heart

Nay: It's good! Yeah, it's good, it's fun

Sam: So, for me, no, it doesn't get a Pride float. But I don't think it wants one. I think it just, I think it's gonna go to the parade (laughs with Keith) and I think that that reading, that queer reading of, or that reading of toxic allies, my God, that gets a Pride float. Or at least a picture of a Pride float that gets retweeted and then talked about on Twitter and then thrown in people's faces so it's exhausting

Brennan: You quote tweet it with "LMAO" and it gets more likes than the original tweet

Sam: Yes. But no, I don't think it necessarily wants one. But no, not for me

Nay: Yeah, I think we have enough toxic alliy floats at Pride

Sam: Ahhh! (chuckles)

Brennan: Budweiser anyone?

Nay: Right. Chase Bank. Whatever.

Sam: God, yeah

Nay: Yeah, I think it doesn't get a float. (to Sam) And I think you're right, I don't think it necessarily wants one. It definitely comes to the parade

Sam: Mmm-hmm! (chuckles) Who does it bring? To the parade?

Nay: Good question. That's a good question. Actual queer people. Actual queer people, hopefully. But I do think it maybe it helps hand out some literature on bullying

Brennan: Yeah

Sam: Mmm-hmm

Nay: Or Purple Shirt Day or something (laughs)

Brennan: I mean grown-up Luke could come and he could be played by Ezra Miller, right?

Nay: Yes. Remember when Luke whips that kid's ass?

Nay and Sam: Oh my God

Nay: Just the noise on that scene?

Brennan: Ooooh yeah!

Nay: (groans) I loved it!

Sam: Yes

Nay: It was so satisfying

Sam: Mmm-hmm

Nay: Ooooh. Into it

Brennan: Oh yeah

Nay: That was so good

Brennan: Oh also, before we go, my favorite line of the movie, is, it perfectly fits with your idea of toxic allyship in the sense that (David) has been such a hero and protector for Luke, but then at the point where (David) is too far gone and he's like, "You know what? Bring a knife to school."

Sam: Yeah

Brennan: "If the bullies aren't scared of you, go to their homes. Burn them down with their families inside."

Nay: (laughing) Yes!

Brennan: I think that's a perfect microcosm of what we've been talking about

Sam: Mmm-hmm, mmm-hmmm

Keith: Yeah

Nay: So true! Oh my God

Brennan: By the time he's beyond the pale, it is too late

Nay: Right

Keith: Yeah

Keith: And by the way, I definitely agree it should not be a Pride float

Brennan: Oh, thank you

## **Quotes**

Keith: I am Keith Calder. I am a film producer and I am in no way related to anyone dating a member of the band One Direction

Nay: (laughs) Thank you

Brennan: You made me promise not to bring that up

Nay: Right. I was like, "Didn't we spend probably spend five minutes talking about how we weren't gonna bring that up?"

Brennan: I mean, I'm glad you did

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: (to Keith) Tell me some movies that you've produced also

Keith: Sure

Nay: What would our fans know?

Keith: I produced a bunch of movies with a writing and directing team, Adam Barrett and Simon Wingard, so I did You're Next, The Guest, and the unfairly maligned Blair Witch recently

Nay: Mmm-hmm (cackles)

Keith: And I also recently produced a movie called Blindspotting that came out last year

Brennan: Oh yeah, that movie's great

Keith: Yeah. And the first movie I produced was a movie called All the Boys Love Mandy Lane

Sam: Ohhhh! Hi!

Keith: So yeah. And I had an animated movie called Nomalisa a few years ago

Brennan: That was you?

Keith: Yeah

Brennan: Oh, that's awesome!

Keith: Thank you. And yeah, that's it. Recently a movie I'm putting together now to shoot next year was just announced even though we were hoping it was not gonna be announced and that's Regina King's first movie as a director. Pretty cool

Nay: Oh my God. Wow

Keith: So we got some cool stuff going on

Nay: Yeah

Sam: And what's your favorite One Direction song? Just for the fans

Keith: Um, this is so embarrassing but I could not answer that question… no no no, it's the one where it's like, "That's why you're beautiful" or something like that?

Brennan: "What Makes You Beautiful"

Keith: Yeah yeah yeah

Nay: Ohhhh

Keith: "What Makes You Beautiful"?

Brennan: Yeah

Keith: That is a very clever lyric. It really is. 'Cause it's about everyone. Everyone wants to feel beautiful, right?

Brennan: Oh yeah! And it describes exactly zero qualities about any specific woman

Keith: Oh yeah, I know. Anything they say could be applied to anyone. It's amazing. Yeah

Brennan: "The way that you flip your hair gets me overwhelmed," so she does have hair

Keith: Right? She has hair, we know that about her.

Sam: Just to be clear, this song about what makes her beautiful is that she doesn't know

Brennan: Yeah

Nay: That's annoying

Sam: Okay, hold on

Nay: You can't handle a secure bitch? Okay?

Sam: She knows she's beautiful and that makes her attractive. Are you gonna tell me you need someone with low self-esteem?

Nay: Yes, that is exactly what they're telling him (laughs)

Brennan: Actually on their follow-up album "Take Me Home" there is a song called "She's Not Afraid" which is kind of the flipside of it, where she's this kind of brave courageous woman and I really like that song

Nay: Well, before this conversation I did not know any of that, so thank you, I appreciate it

Sam: Thank you for coming to our One Direction podcast (laughs)

Nay: Yeah!

Nay: I haven't seen these folks in a while, either. Because we had a little break

Brennan: Two long weeks

Nay: To not celebrate Straight Day

Brennan: Yeah

Sam: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: A.k.a. Fourth of July

Nay: The Fourth of July

Sam: Nay tweeted that she's gonna unfollow anyone with a Fourth of July photo. I lost it (laughs)

Nay: Okay, I did. I just wanna say I was thinking about it later, I did not unfollow everyone who posted a Fourth of July pic, I only unfollowed the people I wanted to unfollow anyway. I noticed that about myself

Sam: I love that

Nay: I was like, "You're a bitch. You just wanted to unfollow them anyway." So it was great. I was like, "Oh."

Brennan: At least you gave them warning

Nay: Yeah. Other people I was surprised to see red, white and blue cupcakes and sparklers and stuff because I felt like every other day the posts are like, "Fucking kids in cages! That shit's fucked up!"

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Nay: Which, yes, that should be everyone's post every day. But I was like, "Oh, that's weird, to have a party about it."

(Everyone laughs)

Nay: But you know, I felt like this for many years about the Fourth of July, you know? I'm a Black person, so it has never represented independence for everyone for sure. So that's the update, I did not unfollow everyone, but I did unfollow some people 'cause I wanted to

Sam: Yaaaas

Nay: I was like, "Ha!"

Brennan: You gotta purge that list sometimes

Nay: You unfortunately definitely do. Definitely. And I think that it's funny, it's not funny, it's actually not funny and it totally makes sense. I was gonna say, it's interesting how upset some people can get over an unfollow or a mute

Sam: Right

Nay: And I have always told my friends, "I know I'm annoying so if you need to unfollow me, even if it was my very best friend or you need to mute me, I understand," because you can be really close to someone and like someone and just not like their internet presence, you know?

Brennan: Yeah! Absolutely! Or even to the point of, "I wanna hear your stories from you, rather than seeing them on Instagram first"?

Nay: Yeah. Totally

Brennan: "I wanna know what you did today, but you telling me what you did today."

Nay: Mmm-hmm, mmm-hmm

Brennan: That makes sense to me

Nay: Yeah, for sure. So none of us should feel bad about who we have to unfollow or mute or block or re-follow once they get their together, you know?

Sam: I brought it up 'cause your tweet kind of inspired me, to be honest

Nay: Oh

Sam: I had a bunch of plans and was like, "I'm not feelin' this." I watched Culture Shock that morning and--

Nay: Oh, me too. Yeah yeah yeah

Sam: Yeah, and which had it in my head, I'm like-- Culture Shock is a Fourth of July film about what is happening in our world horror-wise, but also with detention camps. And it's like, "How do I celebrate tonight after this?" That movie… all I wanted to do, I just started texting people to have conversations and then I saw (Nay's tweet) and I was like, "I can unfollow in real life and just not go."

Nay: Yeah. Yeah! The actual important unfollow

Sam: Yeah

Nay: The real-life unfollow

Nay: Well, that's perfect because we always have Tea Time where we talk about what we've been watching. (To Sam) And since you've already started, if you want to keep going

Sam: Yeah. It's interesting because I like Culture Shock, but I wish that-- did y'all see it? Did anyone here see it?

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: I have not seen it

Sam: Okay

Brennan: It's Gigi Guerrero, right?

Nay: Yes

Sam: Yes. I love the directing, and I love the cast. The cast is incredible

Nay: Yeah

Sam: Barbara Crampton--

Nay: Oh my God

Sam: I'm sorry, but Barbara Crampton clutching another woman's child was the image of Fourth of July. It was like, "Oh right. This is where our country is." I mean, she slayed. Also, the lead, oh gosh I wish I wrote her name down, she was incredible too

Nay: Yes

Brennan: I can look it up while you're talking

Sam: Great! Yeah, please! I just was all about that cast and the concept. For me it fell apart a little bit towards the end just because I wasn't as interested once we got into the fake world. I was really interested in the real-life horrors of what she was going through and it was so tense because it felt real

Nay: Yeah. Yeah. I definitely think it was so good. I started it at like, midnight or something (chuckles) whenever it came out

Sam: Yeah. Immediately

Nay: Yeah. And well, I had tried to go to the premiere. Do you remember what was happening-- does anyone remember what the fuck was happening in Hollywood that day? There was a parade, Hollywood Boulevard was shut down

Sam: Oh my God

Nay: There was no parking, it was nuts. I mean, not that there's ever parking but even the garages were full, Lyft drivers couldn't get through, it was insane. So I was thirty minutes late, didn't wanna walk in late. Went to the party afterwards. Which was excellent. Great party, great party. But yeah, watched it and was like obviously this is-- well, my first thing to say was, "This is so on time that I'm actually," and this is no shade to anyone that made the movie, I was gonna say, "It's late." And that's not to say that they got the message out late, because of course not

Sam: Right

Brennan: (laughing) It takes a while to make a movie

Nay: It absolutely takes a while to make a movie. But also, immigrants have been getting fucked up here for a long-- like, since always

Sam: Mmm-hmm

Nay: So sometimes I think it's a little grating to see folks wake up now

Sam: Yes

Nay: I'm glad. Everyone please open your eyes whenever you can get them open. But I think for a lot of folks who have been aware or have experienced this or their families have experienced this, it's kind of like, "Well, I'm glad someone cares now, but damn. It had to get pretty bad for people to care."

Sam: Mmm-hmm

Nay: And so yeah

Sam: That's what I was gonna--

Keith: That's what happens. We made a movie called Undocumented, about nine years ago, that deals with very similar themes

Sam: Chris Peckover

Keith: Yeah. And it totally flew under the radar because I don't think people were ready to talk about those issues at the time

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Keith: It is interesting that what seems late to me now is clearly the right time

Nay: Yeah. Yeah, totally. I mean, I always thank the same group of people and that is the internet, for bringing certain issues to light

Keith: Yeah

Nay: Meme culture and millennials and Snapchat and Instagram stories for publicizing certain things and issues and pulling at certain heartstrings and yeah, maybe nine years ago-- when did Instagram start? I feel like I got on in 2012 or some shit

Brennan: Sooner than that, right?

Nay: Yeah, not that long ago

Brennan: Yeah

Nay: So, only had weird little Facebook back then. I guess Twitter was there, too. I dunno

Brennan: Baby Twitter. It was still a hatchling

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: Oh, and the lead is Martha Iguereda

Nay: Yes

Sam: Incredible

Nay: Incredible

Sam: So fierce

Nay: (To Sam) You know, I hear you about appreciating the real vers the kind of imaginary things in that movie and I don't wanna spoil it for anybody so I'll talk avout it with you later

Sam: Definitely

Nay: Yeah. There were some very striking things, and the director, she's dope as fuck, so

Sam: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: She came to Horror Trivia once. She is a light. She is so nice. She's the nicest person I've ever met!

Nay: Yeah

Keith: Sorry, who directed it?

Brennan: Gigi Saul Guerrero

Brennan: (to Sam and Nay) Is there anything else either of you two have been watching?

Nay: I'm trying to remember. No, that's the only thing. I know I watched something else, but that's what I brought today to talk about

Sam: Midsommar!!!

Brennan: I was hoping someone would being it up

Sam: I was hoping somebody would bring it up, too. So I brought it up

Nay: Good! Yeah, no, I'm going to see it

Sam: That festival of whiteness. So, it's interesting because it is the complete absence of queerness. And I was wondering if it would work in a, and not to be so obscure, but in a James Baldwin Giovanni's Room kind of way where you completely where you pull out all Blackness, so you have the outline of what Blackness is culturally. I thought that maybe Midsommar would do something like that, where it was like, "Okay, with no queerness, we're just gonna see exactly what's missing." But it didn't do that for me entirely. I would say it's more about the ritual.of heteronormativity and being trapped in it, like this couple, and how that's extrapolated into actual rituals. Okay, sorry, that was my English major part. But yeah, also, people got gross and (laughs)

Nay: I can't wait

Sam: Yeah

Brennan: It certainly held my attention. And I do not have a lot of attention to give to a movie that's two-and-a-half hours long. Jack Rayner's reaction shots to everything are perfect. It's surprisingly funny, especially in the first act. There's a lot more levity to it than Hereditary, which was Ari Aster's first film. Yeah, it was, you know, a lot of Wicker Man bullshit. I was into it

Sam: Yeah. "A lot of Wicker Man bullshit." I want that on the DVD box

Brennan: Oh yeah. Also, because, you know, (as Christopher Lee) "It is the Wicker Man." So, you know-- absolutely no spoilers, but you know what's gonna happen. But there are certain aspects about the ways that it plays out that are really interesting and visual and exciting

Nay: Cool

Brennan: So that's cool. I don't know if I was one hundred percent satisfied with just how it all ended and was like, I know. But it's a cool atmosphere, rather than a narrative, I would say

Nay: Mmm-hmm. What did you tweet, Sam? Something about just how boring straight people are?

Sam: (snickers) Yeah

Nay: It was really (indistinct). It was so funny

Sam: Well I tweeted that the true villain of this movie was how boring heteronormativity is

Nay: Yes

Sam: And I truly believe that's what Midsommar is about. It's all these bored straight people go to this place where all these other bored straight people made rules about how to be this way. And then they live their cycles and die

Nay: Mmmm

Sam: I mean, I was watching it like, "Holy shit, I'm glad I'm gay." But I don't know, I don't think that's what straight people get when they watch it

Nay: No

Sam: Right?

Nay: No. I doubt it

Sam: But I was like--

Brennan: They're like, "I'm really glad Sam's gay."

Sam: Yeah (laughs) But it's so-- watching it I felt so other

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Sam: And I don't always feel like that watching horror. Because I think as queer people we're used to our windows in being in everything. I watch every movie and I just imagine myself and these are my avatars. But for some reason Midsommar did not work like that for me. I watched this movie and I was like, "This is a movie not about me. This is about like, my parents are gonna get this, my friends from high school are gonna post about this on Facebook. This is not, I'm not interested in these human dramas." But I still loved it! But from maybe from an anthropological--

Brennan: Yeah!

Nay: Speaking of your parents, though

Sam: Oh, God

Nay: I got a text today--

Sam: Stop

Nay: From a friend I didn't even know listens to the show and literally all it said was, "L-O-L at Sam's dad and the panty raids" and I cracked up!

Sam: (laughing) Oh my God!

Nay: Yeah. A moment

Sam: Brennan, thank you for giving my stepdad a microphone in that moment

Brennan: You're so welcome

Sam: (to Keith) We had a live show where my stepdad explained what a panty raid was

Brennan: The world needed to know

Sam: My God. If anybody's gonna walk us through that (laughs)

Nay: It was so amazing!

Sam: I was mortified

Nay: Yeah, of course

Sam: It was fantastic

Nay: Oh my God

Nay: (to Keith) What about you? Have you watched anything recently?

Keith: Yeah, I recently rewatched The Taking of Pelham 123 and Dog Day Afternoon

Nay: Ohhh

Keith: Yeah

Brennan: The original Pelham or the…?

Keith: Yeah, the… I mean, come on (chuckles) Not the, I think it was Tony Scott did the other one

Brennan: Oh yeah yeah yeah

Keith: Yeah. No no no, the original. I watched them both for another podcast, so I kind of feel like I'm cheating on them talking about it

Brennan: Oh, which podcast?

Keith: It's called Sleazoids

Nay: Oh, that's a great name

Brennan: I love that name

Sam: They don't listen to this one, it's fine

Keith: Right? Yeah. But it was great rewatching them because they're both just dealing with an early Seventies grimy vibe and it was very interesting to watch 'em again. And then I caught up on The Magicians

Brennan: I've heard great things

Keith: Has anyone here seen it? No. Interesting

Brennan: I'm gonna get a tweet from one of my friends

Keith: You haven't seen?

Brennan: (laughing) About continuing to have not seen it

Keith: So… my wife Jess and I produce together

Brennan: Oh, nice

Keith: And I had watched the first three seasons without her. I'm from the UK and I was getting my visa renewed and I was doing nothing, so I binge watched it. This is last year. And then convinced her to watch it and I've kind of rewatched the first three with her and now we watch the fourth season together. It's really good. I would highly recommend it. It feels like the closest thing I felt like when I first watched Buffy, the series

Brennan: Whoa! Okay, that's a sell

Sam: Wow

Nay: Okay!

Sam: Yeah, sign me up for that

Nay: Yeah

Keith: Yeah, it's good. And I would say, I started it and didn't like it, and then a friend of mine who's a writer said, "You gotta go for it," and I kind of made it. The first season is a little rocky, kind of like how Buffy was?

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Sam: That's how I felt watching Buffy

Keith: And then I think season two really takes off

Sam: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: Okay!

Nay: Nice

Brennan: Is it on a Netflix or something?

Keith: I think the first three seasons are on Netflix. That's the problem, I think. Season four you have to buy it on iTunes, which is a commitment

Brennan: Uh-huh

Keith: So yeah, no, one two three is on Netflix

Brennan: Yeah, no, if you're in that deep, you're committed so I think it's fine

Sam: (laughs) This is the only person I've ever heard say, "A Netflix" besides my Mom

Nay: (laughs) I know, right! "Is it on a Netflix?"

Brennan: What-ever. Look, I got pretty dragged on Twitter today for talking about Fanfiction.net last week instead of Archive of Our Own

Keith: You know, I was gonna bring that up

Brennan: Were you really?

Sam: Ohhhhh!

Brennan: You've been reading the One Direction fanfiction, right?

Keith: No, I've got friends that are really into fanfiction world and I saw that and I'm like, "What is this fanfiction thing?" And yeah

Brennan: No, look, I know it exists, but I'm an old man. I don't go on the internet any more for reasons other than to watch movies. And also TV, like what I'm about to talk about

Brennan: On HBO, there's a new show called Los Espookys that you need to watch. It was created by Julio Torres, who used to write on SNL. It's set in Mexico City. It's such a weird logline I'm just gonna give you a bit of the first episode. Basically this group of people in Mexico City they put on this kind of horror-themed quinceanera for one of their family members or whatever and you know, there's severed heads in punch bowls and vampires and all kinds of spooky things. But they get hired by this priest who works at an orphanage. So the orphanage just hired this hot younger priest who's from the Vatican and just is super cool. And this older priest wants to be impressive to the kids again, so he wants to stage an exorcism

Nay: Yes!

Brennan: So he hired these people to make that happen. And they get further gigs… it's kind of like a "monster-of-the-week" show but they're creating the monster of the week. The second one is, it's one of those, "You stay in this house all night, you win eight million dollars" or whatever and they're trying to scare all the people out of the house. It's really funny. It's mostly in Spanish with English subtitles, and the English scenes, which largely include Fred Armisen are in English with Spanish subtitles. It's such a bizarre, deeply weird beautiful show. I can't stress enough how strange it is, and I'm so glad HBO tossed money at it and put it out. And also, Julio Torres, who created it, is gay and he's in the show playing a gay character, which hooray. Into it. Also, I watched one episode of a show I saw on a billboard in L.A. where I was like, "What the hell is this thing?" And I only watched one episode because that's all I had time for. I'm gonna keep watching it. It's called Alternatino. I was just looking at this car crash of a title, I was like, "This is so many vowels." It's very hard to parse out what it was, but it's a sketch show by Arturo Castro about what it's like to be a millennial and latino in America and it's so funny. I mean, it's a sketch show so you know, there's on-and-off sketches. But it's very relevant and deeply funny in a modern way. There's a sketch about what happened in Puerto Rico after Trump thre the towels at them, like what they did with the paper towels

Nay: Oh my God

Sam: Woooow

Brennan: And there's also a really great scene about (Arturo Castro) dating a white lady who kind of fetishizes latino dudes and he's just this kind of dweeby Guatemalan guy and she wants him to be this latin lover and it's kind of like the conflict between those two things. It's a really funny show

Sam: Is it on Netflix? I'm sorry. Is it on a Netflix?

Nay: "A", Right

Brennan: It's on a Comedy Central, so you should check it out. One of them. Anyway, that's my TV for the day

Nay: Well, cool. Thanks

Brennan: I wish anyone watched any of my things, because I always feel like I'm lecturing to a room going, "Uh-huh, uh-huh."

Nay: No, I'm gonna watch Espookys

Brennan: Please

Nay: Definitely gonna watch that

Brennan: If you watch anything, watch Los Espookys

Nay: No, I'm gonna watch that

Brennan: It's so funny, it's half-an-hour, 8in-and-out, real quick

Nay: Yeah. I gotta watch something now that I'm done with Game of Thrones

Brennan: Oh!

Sam: (gasps)

Brennan: What do we think?

Nay: I mean, I see why people were disappointed, you know?

Brennan: Uh-huh

Nay: But honestly, I would go through anything to be introduced to the character of Brianne of Tarth

Brennan: Yes. True

Nay: I watched the whole show and it was worth it to me because of her

Brennan: Are we Team Arya? Do we like Arya also?

Nay: Yes.

Brennan: Uh-huh

Nay: There's nothing I dislike about Arya. I wish someone had told me before I started that she was a serial killer (chuckles) I was like, "Oh. That makes her so much cooler." I mean, she was already cool

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Nay: But yeah, of course Team Arya. And once I saw what she did, you know--

Brennan: Yeah yeah yeah

Nay: Or at least all the memes, which is what made me watch Game of Thrones in the first place 'cause I was like, "I need to know what Arya Stark did." I was like, "Oh, of course Arya Stark did that."

Brennan: Yeah. I dunno. It was cool

Nay: Yeah. I liked it

Brennan: I'm glad you got through it and weren't, you know, crushed by it at least

Nay: No. No. Could not be crushed by that (chuckles) No. Only wanna be crushed by Brianne of Tarth

(Everyone laughs)

Nay: And that's it. This is the last show I'm talking about her

Brennan: Let it sink in

Nay: I will. I will. Yeah (chuckling) I will

Nay: …For the record, this is the first time we have ever talked about a film with someone in the room who helped make the film

Brennan: I'm very nervous about that (laughs)

Sam: Terrified

Keith: Let's go for it

Nay: So before the show, Keith was like, "Don't worry. Y'know y'all can be honest. If you have something to say about it, please bring it up." So I just wanna make sure that Sam knows that 'cause Sam wasn't in the room when Keith said that, so.

Sam: Thank you. I appreciate that

Nay: Just wanna be honest

Brennan: I also wanna make sure you know, (Keith) was lying

Nay: Yeah

Keith: Not lying, not lying

Nay: Yeah, so, we're here to talk about The Guest

Brennan: (on the music used in the trailer) I am ready to take my horse down to the old town road

Nay: I'm sorry, but speaking of "Old Town Road", since you brought it up

Brennan: Okay

Nay: I was like, "Renee, shoot your shot."

Brennan: (chuckles) Okay

Nay: "Ask Lil Nas to be on the podcast."

Brennan: Okay

Sam: Yes

Nay: During a Live that he was doing.

Brennan: Uh-huh

Nay: Of course he didn't read it, but I took a screenshot so that we can post it so that we can make everyone tag him (laughs)

Brennan: (gasps) I love that!

Sam: I love that idea

Keith: I'll tag him

Brennan: Did you get a Change.org petition?

Nay: Yes! Because yeah. Anyway. But yeah, The Guest. Love the music from that movie

Brennan: Hell yeah

Sam: That trailer made me feel sexy, actually. But so did the movie

Nay: (laughing, to Sam) I saw you. I saw you

Sam: Yeah, halfway through that trailer I was feelin' myself

Nay: I saw you, it was like you was out in the desert

Sam: It's heatin' up

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Nay: My first question is: "Would your mom let this man into your house?" Each of you go. 'Cause mine would

Sam: Okay, we've met my Mom

Nay: (laughs) Sweetheart

Sam: Not only that, he's there before she-- I feel like she opens the door and sees him, he's inside

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Sam: My Mom would let him in. I would let him in

Nay: My Mom would. I would not, but my Mom would

Sam: Yeah

Brennan: Honestly, my Mom, I don't think she would

Nay: Nice

Brennan: My Mom is very cautious of strangers

Nay: Yes! I love it!

Brennan: She's like, "No. You're not crossing this threshold. Tell me ten facts about Brennan."

Nay: Yessss! (laughs) I live for that! Because my Mom would be like, (as DAB) "Oh, honey!" (regular voice) As soon as she heard "military" and her kid--

Brennan: Ahhh. Mmm-hmm

Sam: Exactly!

Nay: She would think he's cute. She would let him in the house immediately. Yeah

Sam: And there's a culture with people who have served, like my stepdad was in the army

Keith: Yeah

Sam: And whenever they meet them, they meet each other--

Nay: Yeah

Sam: It's automatically-- it's kind of like us, it's family

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Sam: So when I saw that I was like, "Yep. This is real."

Nay: Yeah, I definitely was like, it would take maybe three to ten seconds for my Mom-- people come up to my Mom all the time and are like, "Oh, I'm one of your kid's friends, you know, blah blah blah," and she'll call me and she'll be like, "I don't know who it was," and she'll try to describe 'em to me and I'm like, "Mom, that told me nothing." But I know that she would point-blank believe them immediately

Sam: Mmm-hmm

Nay: And so if they showed up at the door, she would definitely let them in. And I'm terrified now and I need to call her after this

Brennan: Yeah, you should warn her that if there are any creepy listeners, they just heard that and they're ready

Nay: Yeah. My Mom will befriend you. But that's a problem for you, not for her, honestly, so (laughs)

Sam: What David reminded me of is, you know when you're on Grinder or whatever app--

Nay: Yeah

Sam: But somebody really hot doesn't have their Instagram linked and they don't wanna send more pictures--

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Sam: But they wanna come over and you're like, "Fuck. Well, do I let them? Because they're really my type," or whatever it is

Nay: Whatever you think it is, yeah

Sam: They're not giving me all the basic information I would require from a human. That's what this movie was

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: Ooooh

Nay: That's true

Sam: For me. It was one-thirty in the morning on a dating app

Nay: Yeah. No, you're so right. My jaw-- yeah, you're right. Yeah, not everything you need, but they do-- and I think because of who he is and is you know, this quote-unquote "clean-cut white guy" at the door who says he's in the military

Sam: Mmm-hmm

Nay: They didn't see him five minutes go running down the road, because that opening shot was terrifying.

Sam: Oh yeah

Nay: As soon as I saw those boots, I was like, "No. No sir. I already know this man was or is in the military and I'm already scared."

Sam: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: (to Nay) So, was this your first time watching the movie?

Nay: Yes. Yes.

Brennan: Sam, was it your first time?

Sam: Not my first time

Brennan: Okay. Keith, was it your first time?

Keith: You know, I didn't rewatch it 'cause I've seen it hundreds of times

Brennan: Yeah

Keith: But I listened to the soundtrack on the drive over here, so I feel refreshed

Nay: Oh! Such good music

Brennan: Really, that's such an integral part of the fabric of the movie

Nay: Definitely

Brennan: That makes perfect sense as a rewatch

Nay: Yeah. Definitely

Sam: Mmm-hmm, mmm-hmm

Nay: I loved the soundtrack. I don't know that I'd listen to it in my car (chuckles) but it was, I really enjoyed that part of the movie for sure and would be like, "Oh!" when the music would shift really intensely

Brennan: Oooof, yeah

Nay: I'd be like, "Oh. I don't actually know what's going to happen, but I'm ready." (chuckles) Yeah

Sam: Oh yeah

Brennan: Yeah. I actually have a playlist on my iTunes that I've titled, "For David" like the mixtape in the movie

Sam: Oh my God

Brennan: It's selections from The Guest and other heavy synth songs that I think would fit in well with that world

Nay: Mmmmm

Keith: That's amazing. So it's like what Anna's mixtape would be, basically

Brennan: Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah

Keith: I love that

Brennan: I'm kind of extrapolating

Nay: Wow, you're not a nerd or anything (laughs)

Brennan: Whatever! Also, any time my boyfriend is on my iTunes he's like, "Who the hell is David?" I'm like, "I told you."

Nay: Oh wow, Sergio

Brennan: I know. We watched the movie together and I have to remind him every  time

Nay: I'm into that

Sam: Also the emotional moment where (Anna) doesn't give him the CD, but he finds it--

Brennan: Ooooh

Sam: I feel like there's a whole generation of people who won't know what that really feels like

Keith: Yeah

Nay: Yes, yes

Sam: When you put everything into making someone a mix, but then you change your mind?

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Sam: And then he gets it anyway? Fuuuck

Nay: Yes

Sam: That is a time and a place (laughs with Nay)

Brennan: Oh and there's the reverse, they receive it and they're so cold to it, they clearly never listened to it

Nay: Right

Brennan: You're like, "I poured my whole being into this."

Sam: Yes, James Hawkins if you're out there. Come on!

Nay: You know… someone had a old mixtape that I had made for this group thing years ago. And someone that I dated, one of the first things we had connected on was that she had listened to this mixtape and she knew every song on the mixtape, and I was like, "You know what? The other side of that is a little much."

Sam: Mmm-hmm

Nay: That's another one of those red flags. Yeah

Keith: This is-- now I'm realizing this is a motif in things I've been involved with because The Wackness also has a mixtape

Brennan: You did The Wackness too??

Keith: Yeah, yeah

Brennan: You've done every movie

Keith: (laughs) No

Brennan: No, my roommate was obsessed with Olivia Thrilby so The Wackness was a topic of conversation every twenty minutes?

Nay: Wow

Keith: Mixtapes

Nay: Mixtapes. I made a Spotify playlist recently

Brennan: Okay

Nay: And was thinking about how I will never burn another CD. And I wondered what the last CD I burned was. But yeah, I guess playlists are the new mixtapes, like YouTube playlists

Keith: I saw some startup is actually now making tape players where you can make your own mixtapes and listen to 'em with bluetooth headsets and I think that may be the new retro comeback thing

Nay: Ohh. What?

Brennan: That sounds so complicated

Nay: Yeah

Keith: Yeah, it really does, right?

Nay: You make the tape (chuckles)

Brennan: Wait. You make the cassette but with bluetooth?

Keith: Yeah, so you can listen to it with your airpods--

Brennan: So why have a cassette?

Keith: But play a cassette

Brennan: The future scares me

Nay: Okay

Sam: Since I was a teenager, I journal by making mix CDs every month. And I title each one something different

Brennan: Really?

Sam: And I try and tell stories of what's going on with me, but through the songs

Nay: Oh, wow

Sam: So I have a stack of CDs at home. But then you know, obviously, you talk about not, we all just do playlists now, so I have one rule, which is my playlist has to be able to fit on a burned CD

Brennan: That's a good rule

Sam: And when you do that, it makes your playlist bomb because you have to make cuts and we're not even in an age anymore when we have to cut anything

Nay: It's true

Keith: Mmm-hmm

Nay: Good point

Sam: The art of the mix (laughs)

Nay: Wow

Brennan: No, and there is an art to it. It's such a fun thing… but yeah, crafting that for someone is such a process and I dunno, it really feels like something special

Sam: I do have a question. What do we think was on "For David"? (He laughs with Nay) Was there Hillary Duff? I just wanna know. The year is 2014. We've seen her edge, but please

Brennan: We know two of the songs that are on it, right?

Sam: Right

Brennan: I mean there's Antonio, the Berlin breakdown

Keith: The Berlin breakdown

Brennan: The Berlin breakdown. And then the other one that I don't remember right now

Keith: Probably a Klaina Xymox song or something

Brennan: Probably

Keith: The concept is that she, in this small town-- it's something that Adam (Wingard) had in his own life, which is that in small towns they can get into weird music all together. And that was his idea, in this town they all just got into this weird techno stuff and this kind of like German industrial music and that's just what the local scene are listening to right now

Nay: That's so funny. That totally makes sense

Brennan: That makes sense

Sam: Yeah

Keith: Yeah

Sam: I do wanna believe there's some Hillary Duff on there, though

Brennan: Which tracks, though

Keith: I think (she) listens to Hillary Duff but she wouldn't put it on there

Nay: Yeah, I don't think she'd put it on there

Brennan: 'Cause you're trying to impress (David)

Sam: But if you do it on a mix CD you can do it ironically, you're like, "Ooh-hoo, here's the 'Come Clean' remix," you know what I mean? And that's how you do it

Nay: Just testing it out

Brennan: That song was my breakup  song for my first relationship

Sam: Oh my God, Brennan

Brennan: (sings) "Let the rain fall down…"

Nay: Oh my God

Keith: A funny thing here is that Hillary Duff auditioned for that role

Nay: What?

Brennan: What?

Sam: Stop it

Keith: Yeah

Sam: I'm not gonna say mistakes were made--

(Keith laughs)

Sam: Because I love the choice you made

Nay: Yeah. Yeah. For sure

Sam: But what!?!?!?

Keith: Yeah

Nay: That's wild

Brennan: I can't even compute that. You could've had Cadet Kelly Part Two on your hands

Sam: I don't even wanna know who else was up for David, because that was a specimen

Brennan: I wanna know. Was there anybody else?

Nay: You know, I had to keep reminding myself throughout the movie that this was an attractive man. I know I talk about this a lot, but you know, when he comes out of the bathroom and she's like, speechless

Keith: Sure

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Nay: Obviously my first response was, "Get the fuck outta my way, I gotta go to the bathroom. Like, why would you think that I give a shit that you're out here in your towel." I was like, "Renee, imagine it's somebody that you find very attractive, and they walk out--"

Keith: It's Brianne of Tarth

Brennan: (laughs) Oh my God!

Nay: Brianne of Tarth, right

Brennan: Her head would smash through the top of the door

Nay: First of all. Sorry, I'm still thinking about that

Sam: You know, it's funny 'cause during the shower scene when he got out of the bathroom I was doing the same kind of thing. I was like, "Imagine he has chest hair. Then you'll get why everybody feels this way."

Nay: Yeah. And I was like, "Oh, you would act like a dumbass outside the bathroom if Brianne of Tarth opened the door. You would. Okay. So shut the fuck up." Yeah

Nay: I love Luke

Keith: Yeah

Nay: That lil' baby

Keith: I do too

Nay: So what do you think? Do you think he is queer? Do you think he's just bullied for it?

Brennan: I think we should talk and then let Keith talk about the--

Nay: Okay

Brennan: Intention behind it, because listen to our Nightmare on Elm Street 3 episode. We talk about interpretation versus intention

Sam: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: Those can often be very different things. I think that could be an interesting conversation

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: I did not find him to be queer personally. I think a lot of straight people are given the label of "queer" because that's the easiest insult to a boy in elementary school

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: Sometimes those people are right and the queer people are like, "Oh shit."

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: But most of the time I feel like it's a catch-all. And that's not something that I personally read into the movie

Nay: Mmm-hmm. I was thinking about how hate crime laws protect folks, like if someone calls you a "faggot" and then you know, beats you up, even if you're not gay, that's a hate crime because it protects percieved sexualities and whatnot

Keith: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: That's good. And how can you prove that, you know?

Nay: Right. But I was like, I hadn't necessarily thought about that part of the law until you know, he's throwing around, "That was a hate crime." And I was like, yeah, actually it doesn't matter what someone actually is. It's the perception that's part of it as well.

Sam: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Nay: So yeah, I didn't necessarily read that kid as queer either, and I think you're right that that's the first thing that kids go to, especially with young men, so I dunno. What do you think Sam?

Sam: Also, I could not believe how helpful that principal was when he said "hate crime". Imma ell you right now, even two years ago and not to get too technical about it, because I had somebody threaten to kill me. Some amped up bro jock just comes for me and I got to the police station and they're just like, "Well, did you meet him on a dating app?" What a weird thing to ask

Nay: That's fucked up

Sam: Also, they wouldn't even take a police report. This is in Orange, in Southern California guys. So I mean, this is like, in our-- and I'm like, "Can you at least make a note that I was here in case I show up dead? 'Cause I want to make sure that people…" and they wouldn't even record that I was there

Brennan: Oh my God

Sam: And all I'm saying is, we are in a world where I saw that principal jump in and be like, "Oh yeah, this is a hate crime," I was stunned. 'Cause I feel like time and again we've seen school districts, teachers, people not step up to the plate for queer people

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Sam: Especially for queer people

Brennan: I will say, based on a personal experience with a controversy at my high school, if something has happened at that high school before, he probably does not want something to happen again

Keith: Yeah. That's true

Brennan: Because I do not wanna get into the details but my high school was involved in a very ill-conceived senior theme day

Nay: Oh, no

Brennan: That most people ignored because it was stupid, but did involve-- it was a pun on seniors and it involved señors and it--

Nay: Oh lord

Brennan: Involved stereotypical Mexican garb. It was three people because everyone else was like, "This is idiotic." But you know, it blew up and became a real thing. And the principal left in disgrace. So if anything like that had ever happened--

Sam: Fair

Brennan: That is not a small thing to happen, that was hideous and horrible and I'm ashamed to be anywhere near that. But that's smaller than actual physical violence and if anything like that happens at a school, people are on it after that. After the first time

Sam: And I can only speak to my own personal experience of not feeling protected in school or situations like that

Brennan: Uh-huh

Sam: I know that's not everybody. Not everybody has a bad cop, not everybody has a bad school

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Sam: I understand that there are people out there who are good advocates. I don't wanna send-- but you know, I'm just skeptical when I see an institution--

Brennan: Oh yeah

Sam: And I see someone bring up queerness, I'm like, "(sigh) All right, here we go." That's why I was so shocked. I was like, "Oh. This is how this is gonna play out."

Brennan: (The principal) was prepared to not care. That is true

Nay: Oh yeah

Sam: Yeah

Brennan: But the idea of like, embroiling this school in a public scandal, that was a smart move

Nay: Follow the money

Keith: He didn't care whether Luke was gay or not, he cared whether or not he was going to be in trouble

Sam: Right

Nay: (as the principal) "I didn't even know!"

Brennan: Yeah. That's such a good button on that scene

Nay: It was. Yeah, it really was. 'Cause it's interesting. It's like whether someone is or isn't, no one should act this way. And I think that folks think that certain groups of people aren't present and who they have to take care of and who they have to oversee and they don't have to worry about those things and it's like, "Oh. Well, I didn't even know you were gay or I would've done something." But you wouldn't've

Sam: Yeah. And it reminds me of Butcher, Baker, Nightmare Maker, which is strange. But the question of whether or not that character is gay

Nay: Mmmm

Sam: It's like it comes up a lot. People call him "queer" or whatever in the film and at the end of the day we never get a solid answer. 'Cause he doesn't defend himself and I like that he doesn't defend himself

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Sam: That's something I liked in The Guest. He never--

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Sam: He never defends himself or try and take those words and throw them back

Brennan: Uh-huh. It's like, "No I'm not! I'm straight! Look at this!"

Nay: Right

Brennan: There is an ambiguity to it

Nay: Mmm-hmm. (to Sam) Were you on another podcast recently talking about (Butcher, Baker, Nightmare Maker)?

Sam: No, I did an interview

Nay: I'm like, "Did I read something?"

Sam: Yeah, it was with Daily Dead

Nay: Cute

Sam: Yeah. I love Butcher, Baker, Nightmare Maker

Brennan: That movie's nuts. But Keith

Keith: Yes

Brennan: We've been talking about this. What is it. Tell us

Keith: All the things you're talking about are what we wanted it to be.

Brennan: Okay

Keith: So the approach was very much that we didn't want to make the film a definitive record of Luke's sexuality. And I think that part of the reason is dealing with the things you're talking about, which is the nuance of it's a hate crime whether or not

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Keith: And also that the perspective characters are-- the movie's only in Luke's perspective for a very short period of time

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Keith: And my view, and I think this kind of matches what Simon and Adam's view would be, is that Luke is in many ways younger than his age and I think that he is probably somewhere in the queer spectrum but he is not really sure where that lands

Brennan: Yeah, maybe he hasn't grown into it yet

Keith: Yes. And I do think that David being in his life is starting to make him think about some of those things in another way too

Nay: That's cute

Brennan: Oh, it would make me think about those things

Keith: Right. At least that was the idea

Nay: (chortles) Well, if I had a friend who took me to a bar and then beat up a buncha kids who were fuckin' with me--

Keith: Yeah

Nay: I would have a crush on that person (laughs)

Brennan: True

Keith: And I would argue that David is playing towards that

Nay: Mmm-hmm!

Keith: He's trying to create that relationship

Nay: Oh yeah, so manipulative. Yeah

Sam: Yeah

Keith: Creating considering things differently

Nay: Totally. (David) tries to control and create all the relationships he has with people

Sam: To be clear then, the ambiguity is intentional

Keith: Yeah

Sam: Playing with the idea that David, or sorry, the idea that Luke might be queer

Keith: Yeah

Sam: Why not just make him queer?

Keith: Good question. I mean, it is something we actually talked about in development. It is something, I will be honest, that I was pushing for that

Sam: Mmm-hmm

Keith: And it was just a choice that the writer and director made, so

Sam: I always get, I'm always curious where that line is, or where that ceiling is and why, you know?

Keith: Yeah

Sam: And most of the time I don't get a real solid answer so I just figured why not find out? Like for you, what would change? I mean that's cool that you were advocating for it

Keith: Yeah

Sam: What would that change and why do you think that might be difficult, at least in 2014?

Keith: Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. I mean I think that yeah, if we were to make the movie now, that we probably would-- I would push stronger for that. And I think that part of that is that I think that for me, really over the last few years, I've become more cognizant of putting people on screen in ways they wouldn't always see themselves. And I think that it is a bit of a cop-out to make it ambiguous rather than to have it be answered. But I also don't know how, I don't know how we would do it in this specific movie because I don't think it's something that-- the context of Luke's character in the movie is that he doesn't really have anyone else in his life, so it's not like we could see him in a relationship with another person really. It's more is there a way that we could express that through him talking to David about it, or something like that. It's a tricky one because it's not as-- Luke as a character is so introverted that he doesn't really talk about much of anything about himself. Yeah

Brennan: Yeah. And I mean, he's what, he's fourteen in this movie?

Keith: He's supposed to be fourteen, fifteen I think. That range, yeah

Brennan: Okay. Because I came out relatively early

Keith: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: Like compared to a lot of people but at fourteen I still had no idea what was goin' on in there

Keith: And I would say for me that age-wise, and for me and other people who worked on the movie, we're now mid-to-late-thirties, probably early-to-mid-thirties and I think that my experience in high school in the Nineties and my friends who had come out or didn't come out in this time period, and this was in New York, a very different place. Our movie is probably not as representative of 2014, it's probably more representative of our own understanding of how teenagers are. So yeah, I think that there are probably a lot more people coming out in 2014. In my high school, there was one guy who came out and then he just knew everyone else who was gay because they all came out to him, but not to anyone else

Sam: Yeah

Keith: So yeah, that's more my understanding but I'm sure that's not at all what it's like in 2014

Sam: I'm not trying to come for it, I'm just trying to be curious about the process behind it, you know?

Keith: Yeah

Sam: And making those decisions, just because we see a lot of ambiguity in the films that we watch, so

Keith: Yeah

Sam: And you're actually here

Keith: Please. That's why I'm here. Yeah

Nay: Huh. I wonder-- you know, it's like if when queer people make a movie and if they were to leave out or include that ambiguity and not have someone coming out officially, what that is like versus people who aren't queer and leave that ambiguous

Sam: Hmmmm

Nay: I just wonder if I would feel differently about the choice depending on who was making it. I dunno

Keith: I would argue, and maybe this hasn't come across in the movie, is that David is also left intentionally ambiguous

Nay: Mmmm! Mmm-hmm! Yeah. Oh yeah

Sam: I feel like that one was real clear to me

Keith: Okay

Brennan: (amused) You mean him not getting the boner in that sex scene?

Keith: Yeah

Sam: I mean, who hasn't not gotten a boner having sex with (chuckles)--

Keith: Yeah

Brennan: Well

Sam: The gender they're, that they're not normally attracted to

Keith: So I would say-- listen, a lot of the time when you're making a movie, especially a movie trying to do a lot of things, you kind of, and because we have a tendency to pace things up really fast, it's hard to figure out which things you want to underplay and which things you want to overplay. I would say that for David, we were definitely intending for David to not come across as heteronormative straight-like guy. And that I think that some implications we were trying to play with was maybe that his relationship with the son was not just as friends

Sam: Hmmm

Keith: And that, yeah. Anyway, stuff that we're exploring but a lot of it is not explicit in the movie

Sam: So for me, that reads. I dunno. But I'm always looking for myself in these things when I watch 'em, right?

Keith: Sure

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Sam: And I dunno. To answer your question from earlier, I didn't see-- with Luke I didn't feel that. I didn't feel like he was queer. Maybe if he had been cast differently. He's a great actor, but it didn't, he just didn't read as like, "Oh, that's one of me," you know?

Keith: Mmm-hmm

Sam: Not that you have to be a certain stereotype for that, but there's something about casting queer people as queer people. But you're right, he's younger. But with David, and maybe this is in the directing, but everybody in this town wanted to fuck David

Keith: Oh yeah.

Brennan: Uh-huh

Keith: The camera wanted to fuck him

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Sam: So, yeah, the camera-- it is just. The Halloween decorations wanted to fuck David, you know what I mean?

Keith: Yeah

Sam: You can't escape it

Keith: Yeah

Sam: So I think in that way, the whole thing feels queer, before we even have that boner moment

Keith: Yes

Nay: I definitely, that read to me as well.

Nay: I also loved the Halloween setup

Sam: Oh my gosh

Nay: That everyone was preparing for Halloween. That was amazing

Sam: Living

Nay: Yes

Keith: When we first walked in the house set, where it's all set up for Halloween--

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Keith: Our production designer… the general approach is that he will put on too much stuff and then the director pulls stuff away

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Keith: And he was shocked that we didn't pull anything away. (chuckling) It was just like the full-on Halloween decorations everywhere

Nay: Yes

Brennan: And the really exciting thing about everyone getting set up for Halloween is that it was still really sunny outside and really hot

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: And that reminds me of my beloved California

Nay: Right. Yeah, totally!

Brennan: Where it's (chuckling) eighty degrees

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: But yeah, about David. It's interesting that both of you kind of had the same reaction to the infamous boner scene

Nay: (snorts and giggles)

Keith: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: Because what I got from it is that he's kind of asexual

Sam: Hmmmm

Brennan: I got that he was nothing, 'cause he's barely a human at this point. He's a Terminator man

Sam: Mmmm

Brennan: So I was like, he can fake the funk when he needs to. But I thought that was more of a mask that he put on than he's into any gender. That was my reading of it. Um, yeah

Nay: I hear that because I kind of felt like he was so manipulative and scary

Brennan: Yes

Nay: That there was no kind of genuine attraction to anything or anyone

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Nay: That wasn't on the table so I can totally see where you got that from

Brennan: His attraction is his goals

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: His mission

Nay and Keith: Yeah

Nay: (sighs) You know, I was disappointed when the whole medical experiment thing came to light. I wanted (David) to just be insane

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Sam: Sure

Keith: Yeah

Nay: However, it did have me think a lot. I think, and I'm trying to be thoughtful in how I say this because I haven't articulated it out loud, but… is war not, war is a medical experience

Keith: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Nay: People who fight in it, people who live through it and people who die through it. And when I was thinking about our lack of services for veterans and how much support those folks don't have when they come home from doing things that they really need help to process. I'm like, that, that is a medical experiment

Keith: Mmm-hmm

Nay: That's not that

Sam: Mmm-hmm

Nay: So that helped me feel like it was more… like there wasn't some kind of weird unexplainable not understandable medical experiment happening out in the desert that I really had to wrap my imagination around. It was really easy for me to be like, actually all of it is a medical experiment

Keith: Mmm-hmm

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: So it's kind of like a metaphorical microcosm of the kind of bigger thing

Nay: Yeah. Totally. And that's not to say that all veterans need services or like, or are part of some larger medical experiment

Brennan: Yeah. But if they do need services, they should get them

Nay: Yeah

Keith: Yeah

Brennan: Yeah

Nay: Yeah. I mean I think myself, having worked with so many homeless folks in L.A. it's like, I, of course have worked with hundreds of thousands of veterans because the services are severely lacking. Yeah. And it kind of feels like, I mean, from a public health standpoint I'm like that it's not not a medical experiment

Sam: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: You make a good point.

Brennan: Yeah, it's hard to transition from such a somber but important note, but I did have a question. If we're viewing Luke as a queer character, something that is talked about in a lot of queer circles is if you're specifically someone of a certain gender who's attracted to someone of the same gender, when you're attracted to someone, is it like, "Do you wanna date them? Do you wanna be them?" Do you ever have trouble parsing that out? Because I know some… I've heard people talk about trying to figure out how they feel about someone like that

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: Does that make sense?

Nay: Is that for everybody?

Brennan: Yeah, that's for everybody

Nay: Oh, I mean most definitely. Something I think about often, especially when-- I mean, I identify as a dyke and I think I will die identifying as a dyke

Brennan: Uh-huh

Nay: But the older I get, the more-- because I'm a cisgender person, my understanding of gender is obviously child's play compared to anyone who's had to investigate their gender and other peoples' expectations of their bodies. And so, the older I get and the more I understand about how complex gender is, it's like, even hearing something like, "same-sex" or "bisexual" and thinking of two sexes, it just feels so small and well I, I don't know that it always rings true or is something that is very steadfast and I think that because it's so dynamic

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Nay: But. There are so many ways that we are attracted to people, whether it's romantic or sexual or sexual and romantic or, God, I saw a really good breakdown the other day of all the ways we're attracted to folks and you can kind of understand your attractions through these lenses

Brennan: Or well, 'cause the difference between a crush which is like a sexual or physical attatchment--

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: And the asexual squish, which is, you know, I want to be in a friend relationship or connected with you--

Keith: Mmm-hmm

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: Without the erotic or romantic element

Nay: Intimacy without the sex. Yeah

Brennan: But do you ever struggle to parse it out in your own day-to-day sphere?

Nay: Yeah.

Brennan: Okay

Nay: I don't never not struggle with anything (laughs)

Sam: Well said! …I feel like I have that a lot. Especially being somebody who, I have the fantasy of being like a straight person and being able to walk into a grocery store (sotto voce, to Keith) isn't that where you guys meet? (regular voice) And just being able to hit on anybody, so frequently I'll shoot my shot and just be like, "Hey! You know, you're…" and I frequently find that they're not queer. Go figure, you know?

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Sam: But in that experience, I think that there are many people who don't identify as queer, but will have a same-sex encounter. I think there are many people who romantically feel one way about a gender but don't feel that way about the other. It's so complex, so I relate to you, Nay, in a sense where I feel like as I get older, I find myself less identify-- I personally don't even usually use the word "gay" when I identify, I just use the word "queer"

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Sam: Because it feels a lot more encompassing of a lot of things as I understand gender and sexuality better, I realize that I'm just not straight (laughs)

Brennan: Yeah!

Nay: Yeah, no, totally

Sam: At the end of the day, I'm not

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Sam: And when I say that David, I thought that the movie, I think that the movie treats him in a queer way

Keith: Yeah

Sam: I don't actually feel that David is queer. That was--

Brennan: Uh-huh, uh-huh

Sam: But I understand that the movie does in that way, or that the camera does, that everyone wants to fuck David essentially. I mean, I'm not, I mean I'm being really reductive here but I think that I walked away from this movie not wanting him on our team. "Please don't be queer! Please!" Because I don't want another crazy queer person coming to destroy the fabric of heterosexuality

Keith: No

Brennan: I mean, I do. I wanna destroy the fabric of sexual, whatever. You know

Sam: Well, yeah. Fair. Yeah

Brennan: The words that he said

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: That's fun. But no, that's actually-- I'm really, I dunno, interested that you brought that up in terms of, in a society where the meaning of gender is being understood more and more and expanding in such ways that are just out of the bounds of what the conversation has been for a really long time

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: It's like, I also struggle with the idea of, "What does being a gay man mean? What does it mean to me?" Just in the sense of what is gender presentation versus sex versus whatever. And that's a really interesting issue that I think everybody has to work on

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: Also in the heterosexual world

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: We're creepin' in there. We're comin' around the edges. But yeah, because everything is nothing

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: There is no, there's actually no rules to any of this. I dunno, I have no answers but I just think it's a really interesting, crazy, mind-expanding topic

Nay: Mmm-hmm. Yeah, because it has to be more complicated than that because people are more complicated than that

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Nay: And it's like, if I think about my own life, I have dated people who at the time identified as women, but those people are not women--

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Sam: Mmm-hmm

Nay: And so, I don't feel like that-- it doesn't make me feel less gay or less queer or whatever, but it does make me-- it's like, I can't just say I'm attracted to the same sex, that just feels weird 'cause I don't even know what other people are when I'm attracted to them necessarily, you know?

Sam: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: Yeah, because that transition or coming out or whatever doesn't make you not having been attracted to them

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: It doesn't take that away

Nay: Exactly, exactly. You might be like, yeah, it feeds into your understanding of who that person is, but doesn't necessarily reflect that much on who you are

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Nay: Yeah. I feel that

Brennan: (sighs) Life is hard to figure out

Sam: You know, we're having this conversation about queer identity in the presence of someone who is straight, presumably

Keith: I think I'm straight

Sam: And I'm curious as to-- you brought up earlier toxic allies

Keith: Yeah

Sam: You are an ally. You're here.

Keith: Mmm-hmm

Sam: I'm curious about your thoughts on that. Because I actually didn't really, I think I made a noise like, "Mmmm," when you said it 'cause I'm thoughtful but I'm not sure that I totally get it

Keith: Sure

Sam: Could you tell me a little bit more about it?

Keith: Yeah. I mean… I will say something on the point you said before, which I wanna talk about first

Sam: Yeah. Please

Keith: One of the big talking points for us when we were developing the movie in pre-production and kind of figuring out what the approach to the filmmaking would be, was that this movie would avoid the traditional heteronormative male gaze as a camera, right? And I think that you've completely clued into it, the movie in terms of how it views its characters is very omnisexual and queer. It's a hundred percent by design. And I think also, that's something, that Adam fetishizes everything, that's kind of his approach, but it's something that we were very very cognizant of and aiming for and trying to do with the movie

Sam: Yes! Love that

Brennan: That's so interesting. Especially 'cause I find that Adam Wingard is very talented at shooting images of drinks being poured

Keith: (amused) Sure. Yeah

Brennan: In the opening scene of You're Next, there's a scene of him making the orange juice drink--

Keith: Yeah

Brennan: And in this scene when the bartender is mixing the drinks that he's gonna be delivering to the table--

Keith: Yeah

Brennan: I'm like, "I wanna fuck those drinks!"

Keith: (laughs)

Nay: Yeah

Brennan: I have always been like… I don't drink alcohol, but I'm like, I want this poured all over, this is a beautiful image

Nay: Okay

Brennan: And I don't understand

Keith: Yeah

Nay: (to Brennan) You a freak. And it's okay!

Keith: It's very intentional

Brennan: Yeah

Keith: Especially with The Guest. I think of all the movies Adam's done, at least all the movies I've been involved with, that's the one where it was a lot of character was put into that. And it came not just from the camera but all the departments. I mean in particular with David and Anna, it's the costume design, it's the hair and makeup

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Keith: The approach with all that stuff was to hyper sexualize aspects of them in ways that were not the typical heteronormative approach. I would say that was the approach, so

Brennan: Oooh. Just like an omni everything

Keith: Yes. Yes

Nay: The dad's death really saddened me

Brennan: Oooh. Oooh.

Keith: Yeah

Nay: I don't even know why, because I didn't particularly like him before he died, but that felt brutal

Keith: Yeah, it is. I think the place where we lose a lot of more normie audiences is then

Nay: Mmmmmm

Keith: It's when the parents get killed

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Keith: And I think that you either go with the, "Oh, okay, I really was wrong to think maybe David is a solution to their problems." Or you don't. And you know, I think that because we were an independent movie we were kind of able to maybe push that a little further than we would have been at a studio. I also think it probably hurt us at the box office, but y'know, that's how it goes

Brennan: Well thank you for taking the risk, though

Keith: Yeah

Nay: Yeah

Keith: But I wanna come back, Im sorry-- I feel like I did not get to the question you were asking me--

Brennan: That's okay

Keith: I want to, though

Nay: Toxic ally

Sam: I love that you brought it back be8i was like, "Oh, here he goes, sneaky sneak."

Keitb: No. Not trying to

Sam: Yes, let's talk about it! Especially, I mean I'm especially curious because you were talking about the intention

Keith: Yeah

Sam: And intention is the one thing we never get to do

Keith: Sure

Sam: But you're right here. And as an ally, you have had these conversations. "We are going to include this in the film," or, "We are gonna be ambiguous about this."

Keith: Yeah

Sam: So, it's twofold, because I do wanna hear you talking about (David) as a toxic ally, but I also wanna hear you talk about your experience being a good ally

Keith: Mmm, trying to

Sam: Or trying to. What kind of conversations went into the thought that you're talking about?

Keith: Yeah. I mean I think that, first of all, I'll say intention is, I'm a producer on the movie so my intention only goes so far.

Sam: Fair

Keith: I know what I wanted to express in the movie and I know what the conversations were around the movie and the things we talked about. But any movie is a collaborative process that reflects a lot of people's thoughts, so--

Sam: Well said

Brennan: Mmm-hmm

Keith: Just puttin' that out there first. I think that David as a character is designed to be a version of "The Monkey's Paw" story, the sort of "be careful what you wish for" situation, right? So he is a seductive genie in a way, like he's coming into their life--

Brennan: Ooooh

Keith: And he is at first making things better in ways that are just over the edge of what you would accept--

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Keith: And what you maybe think is good? And then over the course of the movie that line just keeps getting pushed and he's kind of shading that window of acceptability more and more towards extreme things, right?

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Sam: Wow

Keith: That's the design of the character and kind of how he works in the story. So I would say that where I find the interesting parallels, and again really, the toxic ally approach is more, it isn't how I would've been talking about it at the time is how I'm thinking about it now, too.

Brennan: Sure

Keith: So I'm kind of talking as a combination of retention and reflection. I do think that with the movie, a lot of what I take from it now is the danger of feeling like you don't have the answers to your own problems and seeking those with someone that's empowered in ways that you feel like you're not empowered. And once you do that, you sort of lose control of how the problem will be solved and any of the kind of secondary effects that come along with that. And I think that you know, it's something that I think feels like what the world is dealing with now, I think there are a lot of people who are trying to help use their power and influence to help people who don't have power and influence and I don't know that they're always thinking through how to do that and what the ramifications of that are, or even listening to those they're trying to help

Brennan: Wow. So, David is Taylor Swift's video for "You Need to Calm Down".

Sam: Brennan.

Brennan: No, but that's really interesting. People in power with good intentions don't always give you what you need

Nay: Yeah. Shit

Sam: Yeah

Keith: I think that's the history of a lot of us, right?

Nay: Yes

Keith: I mean, that's what's happening to a lot of sex workers around the world, right?

Nay: Yes

Keith: Yeah

Nay: Yes. Let's talk about that! Yes, you're absolutely right. I love that idea. It's like there are some folks who are in that toxic allyship where the intentions are excellent and usually the way it comes to fruition is excellent and you're like, okay, that's great. But then there's this other part where it just goes off the rails a little bit, and it causes a bit of harm along the way, and I was really thinking about this the other day 'cause it's like when I am with friends who are white and they start flipping off the cops that walk by or something and I'm like, "I feel you, but you gotta step away from me 'cause I'll actually die." (laughs) So I get that you are feeling some kind of way right now and I get that 'cause I feel that way as well, but sometimes, people are-- when you are not a part of that community or that message comes from a different place and not from your lived experience… the execution might just be a little off, and so I think that's something to think about a little more. And I wanna think about that a lot more and how that kind of manifests and the ways that I even do that with the privileges that I have, that's really interesting

Brennan: Huh. Yeah, it's always good to, even if you're like, you know, the wokest most progressive outspoken person you can be, it's so good to constantly examine intention versus effect versus all of that stuff

Nay: Mmm-hmm, mmm-hmm

Brennan: How can I be better to support the people that I'm trying to support? And need to support?

Nay: Mmm-hmm

Sam: This whole thing is reminding me of an ongoing thing I see on Twitter a lot, within the horror community especially where it's like we see men in power who have been making movies, or they're, you know, figureheads in our community, some of them speaking up because we've been asking. We want voices, right? And so then, during Pride month, we saw a few different people speaking up or taking stands or maybe doing something Pride-related. And then I saw a lot of backlash too, that's like, "Well, where have you been?" And asking a lot of questions, which are important questions and it's important that we interrogate those things but I think there's also a skepticism that comes with it that's earned, and earned skepticism of allies. But it's tough to know who you can trust

Nay: Yeah

Sam: And so I think that if we learned anything from The Guest, it's just trust hot people, right? So just pick your hottest ally, put all your eggs in his basket… (laughs)

Nay: Please don't. Please do not. (chuckles)

Sam: Did I read that wrong? Is that not?

Nay: I mean, I think that's what people do

Sam: Yeah

Nay: I think that being hot gives people social capital and makes people trustworthy and attractive in ways beyond just sexually, and I think you're right, I think people do naturally trust people they find attractive more than people that they don't

Sam: Mmm-hmm

Brennan: Yeah, that's--

Nay: That's like human nature

Brennan: Yeah, that is as unequivocally true as I can say without looking up statistics. But that feels very true

Nay: Yeah, I think that's why-- have you ever been around people who are like, "I don't know why all my friends are so hot." 'Cause you picked them! They're your friends!

Brennan: Yeah! Yeah yeah yeah

Nay: We all do that! I think that my friends are hot too, because they're my friends. We all-- that attraction comes in all forms

Keith: Also you must be a terrible person if you look around your friend group and go, "Man, my friends are ugly."

Nay: "Fuck you, man. (chortling) Why are you here?"

Nay: (to Keith) Thank you so much for being here. I loved (The Guest) it was super fun

Keith: Oh thank you

Nay: Yeah

Sam: And thanks for all the insight

Nay: Yes!

Keith: I'm happy to (indistinct)

Brennan: That was cool

Nay: That was amazing

Sam: And opening the door to tough questions, because I think that--

Nay: Yeah

Sam: Speaking of allies, I wish that more people would be open in the way that you have been today

Nay: Totally

Sam: I feel like I've been, I've had so many conversations with well-intentioned people that don't interrogate the past and set up the future in ways that we are discussing it today

Nay: Yeah. Totally

Sam: Super cool

Nay: Thanks for having so many conversations with us about impact and just how important that is.

Keith: Yeah

Nay: And it was fun. It was a fun movie

Brennan: And thanks for your patience while I was getting lost in the weeds about gender. That happens to me sometimes (laughs)

Nay: No, it's something to get lost in

Brennan: Oh yeah

Sam: Mmm-hmm

Nay: May we all get lost in the weeds about gender and come out better for it

Brennan: Truly

Sam: Agreed

Brennan: Real quick, watching The Quiet Room makes me so mad, 'cause I'm like, "How did he get this person? How did he get this person?" Everyone in the cast is stunning and really cool and I'm so mad that (chuckling) they're friends with you

Sam: Ohhhh. Brennan! Thank you! Oh, wow, I love that jealousy!

Brennan: But anyway

Sam: No, thank you! That's the best compliment! Thank you

Brennan: You're welcome

Nay: Michael, we missed you

Brennan: Oh yeah. Should we just say he had diarrhea again? He loved that the first time

Nay: He probably does

Brennan: You never know with him!

Nay: I think so. I definitely do

## **Previous Episode**

Episode 41: "Where's My Robe, Sweetie?" (w/ Joshua Conkel)