Episode 2

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**Episode 2** is the second episode of the first season and the 2nd overall episode of **Mindhunter**.

## Short Summary

Holden interviews the eerily articulate murderer Ed Kemper, but his research provokes negative feedback at the Bureau.

## Full Summary

**Wichita, Kansas**

A man comes upon a co-worker looking through a cabinet and asks if he can help. The man says he was looking for electrical tape. He's told he needs to bring the empty roll and he can get a new one. The man is confused and leaves without his tape.

**San Francisco, California**

On a plane, Bill and Holden argue over Charles Manson. Holden wants to talk to him, but Bill thinks it's a stupid idea. The conversation continues as they get to the rental car. Bill says no one gets to talk to Manson and others have tried for years.

**Santa Cruz, California**

Bill is teaching a group of local police. Holden is sitting in the back talking to Detective Molina, who agrees that it would be impossible to interview Charles Manson. He suggests talking to Ed Kemper if he goes to Vacaville. Ed is the "coed killer." He's a huge guy who killed six coeds and raped the corpses. He also killed his mother and raped her. He was in a mental institution before those killings for killing his grandparents as a teen. He was released because he convinced them he was rehabilitated. He points out Jim Conor, a cop who knows Kemper well, and says he'll introduce them.

At a bar, Conor and Holden talk about Kemper. He talks about how Kemper is funny and friendly. He watched all the cop shows. He wanted to be on California Highway Patrol, but didn't make it. He would joke that they could conceal his psychiatric record but not his fat ass. Conor says men like him, losers, always want to be cops. Ed would come in and ask about the killings and they never suspected him. Conor says Ed fled, thinking there would be a manhunt. When no one came to get him, he turned himself in. Conor thought he was lying and drove him back to California. On the way, Kemper went on and on about the crimes. Conor says Kemper will definitely talk to Holden if he visits. Bill sits down next to Holden and asks him about his decision, showing disinterest in the idea.

Bill watches as Holden gets ready. He asks what Holden hopes to learn. Holden says a killer who can't stop talking is a gift. Bill disagrees, but realizes Holden won't back down, so he gives Holden advice on how to do it. When he sees Holden put on his gun, he tells Holden they're not going to let him in with his sidearm. Bill says if he goes in with the gun, Kemper will take it from him, kill him with it, then have sex with his face.

**Vacaville, California**

Bill drops Holden off at the prison. Holden tries again to get Bill to go, but Bill would rather go golfing.

The guard has Holden turn over his badge and gun as he enters. He also has to sign paperwork that says they aren't liable if he gets held hostage or killed while inside the prison. Holden is let through the prison to a room. Ed Kemper is brought in soon after to join him. Holden asks for the cuffs on his wrists to be removed and the two are left alone. Kemper sits down and asks how he can help. Holden starts to explain his work, but Kemper offers him food, particularly an egg salad sandwich.

Kemper and Holden have finished their sandwiches. Kemper says he's been there five years and he likes the guards there. They got along right away. He says they like him because he's polite. Kemper talks about applying for CHP, but being turned away not because of his record, but because he was too tall. Holden's surprised about that, but tries to disguise it when Kemper asks if he thinks they lied to him. Kemper again says that cops like him, because they can talk to him. He talks about watching cop shows and using them to avoid detection. Holden tells Kemper about wanting to do a series of interviews with individuals like himself. He thinks it could be useful. Kemper asks what he wants to talk about. Holden says he wants to talk about his behavior, if he wants to. Kemper says people who hunt other people don't want to talk about anything but that. It's not easy work and people don't realize how much you need to vent about it. Holden asks if he thinks prison will help him. He says it's like shutting the barn door after the horses have bolted. When asked what they should do instead, Kemper suggests a lobotomy and talks about an actress who allegedly had one. He had psychiatric care before and it didn't work. Surgery may give him the best change. Holden asks what they should do if surgery doesn't help and Kemper says that's his department. When pressed, Kemper suggests death by torture.

Bill golfs alone.

Kemper asks what Holden isn't telling him. He says Holden keeps looking at him like a specimen. Holden says he looks like a nice, normal guy and it's difficult to reconcile that with what he's in prison for. Kemper understand that. He was a regular guy for most of his life. But at the same time, he was living a parallel life filled with horror. Kemper says there are a lot more people like him. Holden asks him about that. Kemper guesses there are probably more than 35 just in North America. He'll never find them if they don't want him to. Holden doesn't think that's right, but Kemper says he's an accomplished killer who evaded capture for much of his adult life before turning himself in.

On the drive back, Holden tells Bill what he learned from Kemper, but Bill thinks Kemper was manipulating him. Holden suggests that Bill come next time and see for himself, but Bill turns it down again. He suggests that Holden try golf, which helps him clear his head.

Holden and Debbie are having sex. Holden is insecure about how he's doing, but she says he's doing fine.

At a restaurant, Holden and Debbie talk about Kemper. Debbie notices that no matter what, he can't stop bringing up Kemper. Holden is intrigued by how much they could learn from him. He wants to know more about Kemper, but Debbie says he can't ask outright, because Kemper sounds like the kind of guy who would tell Holden what he wants to hear. He has to disarm him first. Debbie tells him how, demonstrating it as she does.

Holden returns to Vacaville to talk to Kemper again. Holden talks about his career history and how it has helped him get women. He tells Kemper specifically about Debbie. Kemper engages in the sexual conversation easily. He says fucking someone's asshole is easy, but fucking their neck is hard because of the cartilage, showing Holden on his own body. Holden asks about Kemper's mom, who worked on a college campus. Kemper explains that his mother hated him because he reminded her of his father. Kemper talks about how women learn to humiliate men, like his mother humiliated him.

Holden talks to Bill about the new information he learned from Kemper in his second visit. Bill thinks it's just a schtick, that Kemper is telling him what he wants to hear. Bill asks why he shared all he did about himself and Holden says he was trying to disarm him. Bill doesn't think it was the right way to go about it. Bill still thinks Kemper was manipulating Holden.

Bill and Holden travel around, driving and flying all over the country.

As they leave a training in Sacramento, Roy Carver stops them and asks them to look at one of his cases. He shows them the case of an elderly woman (Rosemary Gonzales) who was beaten nearly to death and her dog killed. Roy thinks it was a Latino or black person because that's who lives in the neighborhood. He tells them that she's awake now, but doesn't remember the attack at all. Roy says they want to know how worried they need to be.

Roy takes them to the scene of the crime, where they talk to Rosemary, who is still recovering. She wonders what she did and who would do such a thing. She never hurt a soul. They ask if her dog ever bothered anyone, if she got any complaints. She says local kids help her take care of her yard. She has two daughters, but one is divorced and the other she doesn't see often. The only think she remembers from the attack is a smell. The attacker smelled like a bum.

Holden tells Roy that he thinks the attacker is a teenage boy with low self-esteem. He thinks he recognized her home because he used to mow the grass. He went inside, but she didn't recognize him. She started yelling and he beats her because he's drunk. He kills the dog because it won't stop barking. Roy isn't convinced, but Holden reminds him that the attacker smelled bad and says the attacker doesn't bathe because bathing is what his parents want. Bill wonders if maybe the dog was the original target. Roy says it was a harvest moon that night and they've considered that it might be satanic. Holden tells him to talk to the neighborhood kids, because one of them knows something. Roy says they had a kid they questioned twice already and Holden says to bring him in again. They can help him get a warrant.

Bill hangs up the phone in anger and tells Holden they can't get a flight out until Sunday, so they have to get a room to stay. Holden wonders if the kid who attacked Rosemary is like Kemper. They can use it as an opportunity and talk to Kemper. Bill says he'll play golf instead. Holden says Kemper will respond to his seniority. Bill continues to say no.

Bill has relented and is at the prison with Holden to talk to Kemper. He tells Kemper he helped start the Behavioral Science Unit. Holden says Bill taught him everything he knows. Kemper asks what he thinks about Joseph Wambaugh and Holden says Bill knows him and he based a lot of his stuff on Bill. Holden encourages Kemper to talk to Bill about his background. Kemper says even as a child, he had a rich fantasy life. He started off by cutting up inanimate objects, like his sister's dolls. His mother told him he was sick and thought he'd do something hideous someday. He was ten at the time. His mother made him sleep in the basement and locked him in. He later killed dogs and cats to just vent. As he talks, Holden has to interrupt him to pause and take notes. Then he ran away to live with his father, but his father didn't want him either, so he was sent to live with his grandmother, who thought he was a freak. He was put into an institution when he was 15 and released when he was 21. He was emotionally but not physically impotent because of his mother's conditioning. He knew a week ahead of time that he was going to kill his mother. She came home from a party drunk and said she hadn't had sex in seven years because of him. He beat her to death with a hammer. Then he cut her head off and humiliated her. Then he told her she'd had sex. He says a mother should not scorn her own son. If a woman humiliates her own son, he'll become hostile, violent, and debased.

Bill and Holden fly home. Bill says he needs to talk to Shepard about what's going on. Holden says they'll be buried in red tape, but Bill says there's a reason for that. Holden wants him to wait a couple months, but Bill says no, because he doesn't want to risk suspension.

Bill and Holden meet with Shepard, who questions them about the Gonzales case. He's upset that they offered their help. He makes it clear that it's not their place to have offered help.

Debbie is going to Detroit to see her mother and suggests that Holden come with her sometime. She says her mom is kind of a bitch, especially when it comes to people she's dating. But because she likes him, she might give him the secret to winning her over, saying her mother will ask him about his mother and watch him closely. If she thinks he loves and respects his mother, she'll believe he'll treat her daughter the same way. Debbie asks if he likes his mom and he says he really enjoys talking to her. Debbie says he should go with her on the planned trip, but he says he can't because Shepard doesn't want them leaving town because of what happened. Debbie asks when they're going to take things seriously.

Holden stops by Bill's house and picks him up. Bill's surprised to see him, but gets in the car. Holden wants to go back to Shepard and tell him what they've been doing. He thinks if they fix things in Sacramento, they might get what they want from Shepard.

Shepard is upset to learn that they talked to Kemper. Holden tries to make his case, but Shepard tells him to shut it down and never speak about it again. Holden tries again, but Shepard warns him that he's about to get himself into trouble and leaves.

Bill barges into Shepard's office and says Holden is onto something. Bill says they need to talk to more subjects. It's wasted potential not to use their insight. Bill asks how they get ahead of crazy if they don't know how crazy thinks. Shepard says he likes Bill. He doesn't like Holden, but he likes Bill. He approves them continuing, but says they aren't allowed to tell anyone. They have to relocate to the basement beneath Behavioral Science and they may only dedicate ten of their fifty weekly hours to it and he can shut it down at anytime. They agree to those terms and thank him.

Holden and Bill take their things down to the basement. They find their new workspace, which is filled with boxes and furniture.

## Cast

* Holden Ford
* Bill Tench
* Debbie Mitford
* Unit Chief Robert Shepard
* Ed Kemper
* Roy Carver
* Detective Molina
* Jim Conor
* Rosemary Gonzalez
* ADT Serviceman Dennis Rader
* Co-Worker
* Reception Prison Guard
* Prison Officer
* Prison Guard Jim
1/14
### Main Cast

* Jonathan Groff as Holden Ford
* Holt McCallany as Bill Tench
* Hannah Gross as Debbie Mitford
* Cotter Smith as Unit Chief Shepard

### Also Starring

* Cameron Britton as Edmund Kemper
* Peter Murnik as Detective Carver
* Felix Solis as Detective Molina
* Tommy Nohilly as Jim Conor
* Judith Delgado as Rosemary Gonzales

### Other Cast

* Sonny Valicenti as ADT Serviceman
* Gary Warden as Co-Worker
* Giles Wright as Reception Prison Guard
* Tom Carlson as Prison Officer (front)
* Greg Lang as Prison Guard Jim (left)

## Notes and Trivia

* While discussing Ed Kemper in the bar Tench calls Holden "Ke-mo sah-bee" which is a reference to The Lone Ranger TV series.
* Ed Kemper mentions being a fan of actress Frances Farmer.
* Ed Kemper believes working with Holden can be his "oeuvre" which means the works of an artist or composer regarded collectively. The grandiosity of referring to murder this way causes Tench to sarcastically compare Kemper to acclaimed director Stanley Kubrick.
* During the second interview Kemper compares Holden to famous FBI agent Melvin Purvis.

## Quotes

"I was a regular guy most of my life, with a nice home, nice suburb. I had pets, I went to a good school. I was a thoughtful, educated, well brought up young person. There's no question about it. But... at the same time... I was living a vile, depraved, entirely parallel other life filled with debased violence and mayhem, and fear, and death." —Edmund Kemper

"How do we get ahead of crazy if we don't know how crazy thinks?" —Bill Tench