ASM117 Punching Nazis Part II

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welcome to episode 117 of ask science mike called punching nazis part two i'm on the road right now um traveling a lot and in the middle of a move cross country so it's been a little hard to find the physical space and temporal space to record the show so this is my first time recording the show on my phone through the podbean app so hopefully this works pretty well this is not a full show you're probably noticing uh or probably noticing that there's no theme song here but i want to make sure we get a show out i want to make sure there's some things we need to share so we'll do a little mini show this week and hopefully i'll have the time the space to do a normal episode again next week so let's see what do we start with let's start with events because there's a lot of cool stuff happening on the event space you've heard me talk about the liturgist gathering if you listen to the show you know it's going to be an amazing experience it's going to be focused on spiritual practice not just on deconstruction and discussion it's going to be focused on finding peers people to belong with people to explore what life means and what god means together and uh september 15th the liturgist gathering will be in los angeles california october 6 will be in boston massachusetts and october 27th will be in seattle you can learn more by going to the liturgistgathering.com october 21st is the rubicon conference in dublin which i would encourage you to check out it's going to be a really great time together and we'll feature a lot more people than just me and then october 11th through 17th we'll do the ask science mike live uk tour so those dates are finalized tickets are on sale now october 11th at science mike live in london october 13th ask science mike live in birmingham and october 17th ask science mike live in edinburgh so um i'd love to see you at the liturgist gathering in the states at science mike live over in the uk and so that's the events this week i don't have any other announcements really been taking time off from traveling to move my family across the country to los angeles but on last week's show episode 116 one of the questions deal with dealt with is it okay to punch a nazi basically like when is violence justified when is violence not justified and i got so much feedback on twitter and on facebook and on email about that question it's actually more email than i usually get it it's maybe not the most email i've ever gotten on a topic but it's close and so i kind of wanted to re-explore that and i wanted to talk about that a little bit so i just pulled one of the emails i got that i thought summed up people's responses pretty well it came in via email and it reads hey mike on your recent podcast where you answered a question about punching a nazi i was very surprised to hear your answer i think you essentially stated that it's okay to physically harm another person whose ideals you disagree with so long as their ideals presumably harm other people significantly more than what you would inflict that's actually a really good summary my question is this does not does that not fundamentally undermine our justice system in america you have said on several occasions that in order for change to happen we need loud voices on the front lines in addition to intimate one-on-one conversations but i don't believe i've ever heard you condone violent protests would you be okay with someone going to an ass science mike live and punching you in the face because they believe your influences harms people more than a punch would harm you i've always thought that reason we have our justice system is to gather opinions other than our own and then to administer discipline thanks for all you've done mike i appreciate you personally so this is this is a common refrain like if it's okay to punch a nazi isn't it okay to punch anybody and then the other feedback i got from people was basically from pacifist who said it's never okay to punch anyone ever and that that's most of the feedback i got is if it's okay to punch a nazi isn't it okay to punch everybody or we should never punch anyone ever we should never use violence we should never use force i am sympathetic to the argument from pacifism absolutely i am not a pacifist i maybe could be with more thought pacifism presents some real problems for me what do you do with people who are willing to use force to inflict harm on people who can't defend themselves who aren't choosing pacifism who are simply forced and oppressed um is isn't it more moral if you have the capacity to defend those people that's where i get stuck on pacifism and then in terms of is it okay to punch anybody no you can't just punch anybody uh if someone came to a science mike and punched me in the face i'd probably call the police and report an assault right and so does that make me a hypocrite well i mean my whatever i say my views aren't used to oppress people in an indisputable physical material reality so someone had a problem saying i was harming people like spiritually or the afterlife they can't demonstrate factually that their understanding of an afterlife is the singular correct one right so i i would call that a less justified position but basically even digging into it that deeply misses my larger point if our problem is with how force is applied and how violence happens why on earth are we talking about one neo-nazi getting punched one time why is this a fascinating edge case that's worthy of our attention and dialogue and debate why is this something that filled up my email inbox because there are far more gruesome examples of violence in our society far more gruesome is it okay to bomb school children to get a terrorist that is a far more relevant pressing question of violence and justification in our society than can you punch a nazi can you execute black men more often than white men for the same crime can you use police force and police brutality against people of color more often than white people these are things that happen every day these are things that are truly impacting human life on a broad scale and what confuses me about the can you punch a nazi question is if why do we care about that why will we lift our voices so high about that and we won't lift our voices in protest or in question over these far more common far more pressing systems of violence and abuse that was my point and then people said you know this is a false equivalency or violent protests you know they pointed out uh you know a university staffer was assaulted by a crowd who was angry about a conservative giving us a talk and they're like do you condone violent protest no i don't condone violent protests but it seems like a waste of my breath to contemplate that issue in the face of these far larger ones do you see what i mean i am less concerned with occasional violence from people seeking justice and to free marginalized people and free the oppressed that i am you know with widespread systemic violence my question is not one of nitty gritty morality my answer was not meant to endorse punching nazis or violent protests but instead to offer perspective what we choose to talk about and how much in some way reflects our values our concerns and our aspirations for society that's why i don't care if a nazi occasionally gets punched i don't lose sleep if occasionally a university protest gets out of hand because these are edge issues these are not core issues facing society facing us as a people neo-nazis aren't an oppressed class in america they aren't marginalized university professors don't face a systemic disadvantage in life and i absolutely condemn i absolutely condemn an assault on university staff as a result of a protest crowd getting out of hand absolutely it goes without saying but i'm not going to waste my breath or my platform on discussions like those while we're killing school children in other countries and while we're sending people of color to our prisons and to death rose so often my discussions about violence will be centered on where violence is actually occurring not on places that the zeitgeist takes us as a fascinating mental experiment you see do you see where i'm going with this i care about philosophy and epistemology and ethics to the degree that they impact the lives of people my intellectual pursuits are always grounded in this world we all experience together and an attempt to make it more fair and just and equitable for all people