Apples

Liz

Hello, and welcome to Bread and Thread a podcast about food and domestic history. I'm Liz.

Hazel

And I'm Hazel, we are two friends who studied archaeology together and love history and making thigs and baking things and generally doing things the long way around. So what have you been up to recently because we normally start by talking about what we've been making.

Liz

I've started a punch needle rug.

Hazel

Hmm.

Liz

Because so I'm the kind of person that has a favourite kind of snail.

Hazel

That's why we're friends

Liz

So I'm making a punch needle rug of a grove snail.

Hazel

hm. what's a grove snail?

Liz

it also has the word effervescent on it because I'm also far too online.

Hazel

Okay, that's a meme that I don't know.

Liz

So I will explain it to you later.

Hazel

Can you explain what a grove snail is?

Liz

Yeah, so it's a very common kind of snail in the UK. It has sort of an orange shell with a brown stripe going around the spiral.

Hazel

Okay,

Liz

one time I fell into a red ant nest and didn't get bitten at all. And also found a grove snail shell. So now they're my favourite

Hazel

that's an incredibly lucky experience.

Liz

So, now i'm making a punchneedle rug of a grove snail

Hazel

amazing in tribute to the mighty Grove snail protector of children who fall in ants nests.

Liz

Oh, no, this was like a month ago and I'm not the most stable on my feet.

Hazel

okay... So when you said one time I assumed it was a childhood memory.

Liz

Oh, no.

Hazel

No, this one time, like three weeks ago.

Liz

And I've also made I also made some toffee apple ice cream.

Hazel

Oh, oh, wow, that sounds delicious.

Liz

So we made a did it properly fancy that made a toffee custard and an apple compote. And then made put the custard in the ice cream machine to make sort of gelato type ice cream, and then put the apple compote on it. And then some salted caramel sauce. And it was very good. And I highly recommend doing exactly that.

Hazel

Why would you do this to me? I've just had breakfast and now I want ice cream.

Liz

Very sorry.

That sounds delicious. Well,

what have you?

Hazel

Yeah, I made some bread.

Liz

bread is good!

Hazel

For the first time in a while it was a wholemeal walnut loaf. Oh, but I haven't got a lot of experience making wholemeal bread. And I didn't realise that it doesn't rise as much as white flour. So it's a bit dense. But I guess like, I mean, it's all it tastes good. And it's all cooked and everything so nothing wrong with a dense bread. I guess.

Liz

I like a dense bread personally.

Hazel

Yeah, apparently it toasts well, so

Liz

it just I don't know if it feels I don't know if it actually does but it feels like it fills me up more.

Hazel

I think I maybe it maybe it does, because yeah, there's the same amount of bread just in a smaller space. Mm hmm. Anyway, it's quite nice. Yeah, and and I've just been getting very nerdy about my spinning this week.

Liz

Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Hazel

It's one of those things where like, the more I learned about it, the more I realised how much of a beginner I am even though I'd been spinning for like a year and a half at well longer on a drop spindle but I'm specifically talking about spinning on a flywheel but yeah, so just things like the yarn structure and the amount of twist you put in and how that affects the final yarn that you end up making. Like whether it's like a tough yarn or a really soft bouncy one or like a drapiness like it's it's really interesting. So yeah, I'm going to embark on my first garment knitted from handspun yarn. So it's just it's just going to be a little vest. I'm sorry, I don't need to spend that much but yeah, that's that's exciting for me. Yeah.

Liz

Vertical integration.

Hazel

Huh?

Liz

It was a business joke.

Hazel

Oh [laughs] sorry, I'm, I'm not businessy enough. I don't know how to business, I'm afraid.

Liz

So, I believe that today's episode is slightly relevant to my ice cream adventure.

Hazel

It is indeed. I like that actually segues very well. So thank you for making toffee apple ice cream. Yeah, I can't believe that we haven't done this yet. But I'm going to talk about apples today. And this might be a bit of a part one actually, because I don't think I'm going to fit everything I want to say in a reasonable episode length.

Liz

Two part Apple special I'm here for it

Hazel

Yeah, so I mean, the part two will probably come somewhat later but But yeah, this this is an initial introduction to the history and folklore of apples.

Liz

You realise I do now have to call this episode Apples 101

Hazel

Yes. I was hinting at that. Thank you. So, um, I want to dedicate this episode actually. Cuz I yeah, I  know. We don't normally do that. But I would like to dedicate this episode to Dr Aimak Jangaliyev for reasons that we will go into in a moment and to remember this name from when we did domestication. You probably do. Yeah. So I have a bit of a personal connection with the subject of apples as well. My, my granddad ran an orchard. So it was actually it was a fruit and flower farm. So they would grow fruit and flowers to send to market in London and also sell locally. And they grew a lot of apples, as you might expect. them sort of being one of the most ubiquitous British fruits and the Southeast was was known for its Apple growing. The default fruit in Britain though. Yeah, so actually, as we were talking about before the episode, we were chatting, and Liz mentioned apples being like, I was like, you said, apples are your favourite fruit? And then you're like, I'm so basic.

Liz

yeah...

Hazel

And yeah, let me tell you, there is nothing basic about apples and I will die on this hill. Yeah, so we still have my mum has actually become because she would would work on the orchard when she was younger. And it's kind of a passion of hers as well. And she grows lots of Apple. We have like 10 Different apple varieties in the garden.

Liz

awesome.

Hazel

Yes. And so it's actually been a mission this summer, I want to learn fruit tree pruning from her. So, yeah, hopefully, I will actually know how to properly grow an apple tree. So apples are like, like we said something that's considered quite basic, but they're also they're everywhere in mythology, and like folk culture as well. Like they're very symbolic fruit. I possibly most famously, is the Apple of Eden in the Bible, but that one interestingly, probably wasn't an apple. Like it. It doesn't actually say it's an apple. In the Bible, it just says through the fruit of knowledge. Yeah. But the but Western culture has just decided that's an apples because we already have this symbolism of the apple being something like almost mythical something that represents like, a beauty and sexuality and fertility and all that jazz.

Liz

Yeah. happens in the Trojan Wars, doesn't it?

Hazel

Yes, the apple of discord.

Liz

The apple that goes to the fairest and wars happen as a direct result.

Hazel

Yeah. Which I only learned fairly recently, actually. So yeah, an Apple is directly responsible for the Trojan War. If you look at it in that kind- I mean, there's a lot of other people that are directly responsible for the Trojan War

Liz

It's Rube Goldberg machine of the Trojan War.

Hazel

But, yeah, so an apple inscribed to the fairest is dropped into a party, into the middle of three goddesses by Eris, the goddess of discord. And this apple is what represents the most beautiful goddess and so it starts the Trojan War. So again, apples being associated with both beauty and discord, chaos. We also have the apples of youth in Norse mythology. That are

Liz

Iðunn

Hazel

Yes Iðunn. And I always thought because I had a book of myths when I was a kid. And it's it spelled the Goddesses name Eden. And I thought that was what she was called. But then I saw it recently and realised Oh, no, it's it's it's an F. Yeah, so it's, it is pronounced Ethan right.

Liz

I think so. Yeah, I've I normally see it transliterated starting with an I as well.

Hazel

Yeah,

Liz

that od the thing with transliteration. It's, you kind of do what you want to make the sounds right.

Hazel

Exactly. Yeah. So anyway, we have the apples of youth in Norse mythology, of which there are various shenanigans from people trying to steal them and or gods. And isn't isn't one of the famous ones where Loki steals them and then the gods start getting old. Just like oh, no, what's happening?

Liz

Oh, I haven't read that one. But it would not surprise.

Hazel

Yeah. Yes. So there we go, again, associated with long life, fertility. Apparently, in Chinese culture, they're a symbol, the Apple Blossom is a symbol of female beauty. In the 1001 Nights, there's a story that involves a magical apple from Samarkand that can heal any any illness. And then we have things like the in Britain, the custom of wassailing. So in the beginning of the year, you go around all of your apple trees with a mug of cider, and you sing a song, and you pour the cider on the roots of the apple trees to ensure like a good crop of apples in the coming year. And that's I think that's also part of a wider custom of like, people would go around all of the places on the farm and just do a general like, blessings for the new year and stuff.

Liz

In Irish mythology, as well, apples show up being associated with the other world.

Liz

Okay.

Hazel

I think it's the story of Bran they grow on this branch in actually in the other world.

Oh, wow. Okay, I didn't know that one. Yeah, so they're, they're kind of everywhere. And not not just in, in western mythology, where you would think they might be more associated. And that's because apples are actually distributed along the Silk Road routes. So they kind of ended up going to what going sort of west towards Europe and and east towards China. And then eventually over to North America as well. So that that's why they're kind of everywhere across like Eurasia, and then North America.

Liz

So when where did they actually come from then because the Silk Road is a large area.

Hazel

Yes. And I'm very glad you asked me that because it's going to take us to the Tian Shan mountains in Kazakhstan.  now apples are members of the Rosaceae family - rosa-caea? Rosa-cae? Basically, I don't know Latin. So the same Family as other fruit trees like plum and pear. But the thing about apples is that you can't take a seed and then grow the same Apple.

Liz

What?

Hazel

yeah. Which is why although his apple trees that Johnny Appleseed famously planted across the US, most of them are just wild apples.

Liz

So what? What apples? Does it just make it like pre domestication apples?

Hazel

Kind of Yeah, you don't know what you're gonna get. When you when you plant an apple seed, it will grow a tree, but that that apple tree won't necessarily be the variety of apple that you took the seed from

Liz

how though?

Hazel

Um, I think it's because so I'm not a biologist, I spent a lot of time like, pointing out that I'm not not in any way a scientist on this show. But But, um, yeah, so I, I, I think it's got something to do with the, the way that the apple is domesticated is like you. You can't, you can't domesticate it in the traditional sense of like, I'm gonna, like, have these two plants and like, breed them together and then get like a mix of different characteristics. Because the apple will always revert to its, its kind of wild genes as it were. Because what's contained in that seed is just no, like, no matter what you grow from it, it will have the same kind of seed in it. So it, yeah.

Liz

How do you make different varieties then if you can't breed the apples,

Hazel

you graft them. So grafting is a process by which you take a small part of the tree that you want to grow. And then you take a root stock, which is just just the root. So there are a few different types of rootstock hanging around. But there's, there's kind of mainly one that is used mostly in in Europe, because it's like a hardwearing, a very hardy kind of tree that they use, like the that that is the basis of the tree, and then you make a cut into the tree. And it doesn't have to be a particularly deep cut, but you sort of make a diagonal cut into the tree. And then you stick in your bit of the variety that you want to grow. And you bind it on there. And you just let them meld together. Yeah. And so you can have trees with three four different kinds of apple on them.

Liz

You're right apples are not basic apples are Frankenstein fruits.

Hazel

Basically, you can even have trees with apple and pear. Because they're the same family.

Liz

Sure.

Hazel

Yeah.

Liz

I wonder how many different fruits you could graft onto one tree.

Hazel

I wonder how many I think you can get quite a few on that I'm sure I've heard of, particularly 19th century gard-, like, rich people's gardens. They love that kind of stuff. Like, come and see my amazing tree that has like five different fruits of it.

Liz

I want one

Hazel

I know. Right. So um, we have you know, the whole legend with Isaac Newton and the apple tree. Oh, yeah. Well, that apple tree was apparently a flower of Kent was like the tree that was in the garden of his house. And the University of York physics department has a graft of that tree in its courtyard. Which is quite cool.

Liz

If you live in York, you can get an apple that is basically cloned from Isaac Newton's tree.

Liz

Yeah.

Liz

And we know we have people listening who live in York

Hazel

Yes, apparently the the physics like welcome party for freshers is an apple pie party apples from that tree.

Liz

adorable.

Hazel

It's really cute. Anyway, so. This all this is relevant to the mountains of Tian Shan Kazakhstan, because in the mountains of Tian Shan in Kazakhstan is an apple forest. That has, it's very, very old, like, very, very old. And it contains a wide variety of apple trees, wild apple trees, where the apples are edible. And that's kind of a big deal, because most wild apples are not that great, like crab apples, just famously quite small, hard and sour. Although they can make good jam, but you wouldn't just eat them off the tree, but the apples in this forest, there are ones that you can just eat off the tree. And so that the prevailing theory is that that is where these different varieties of apples spread from along the Silk Road.

Liz

that's so cool

Hazel

yeah, basically, from this this area. I mean, there may have been more across the area, but this this forest is kind of the only one left that we know of. Yeah, so apparently. It it, it's like 165 million years ago, that, that this forest developed which is incredible. So there is the the Malus Sieversii, which is the variety that grows in this forest. And in the early 20th century, it started to be studied. So the the well known Russian biologist Nikolai Vavilov, was the first to discover the apples in this forest. But unfortunately, he didn't have a chance to continue his work because he was sent to the Gulag by Stalin. And then, but the the work was continued by the Kazakh scientist Dr Aimak Jangaliyev  who basically spent his it was his life's work, classifying the apples in this forest studying them, like he had this massive thesis that was a detailed like a book of every information on like, every tree in the story is basically every kind of Apple. And yet, he just did so much work on it between the 1930s and when he passed away in 2009. And he actually got in quite a lot of trouble for this because as part of Stalin's policy of developing these areas, like he basically wanted to cut it all down and have industry in that area. And Jangaliyev was like, No, I don't think you should do that. And he said, he said, apples, yeah, he basically put his whole life's work into preserving this forest as well and like saving this, this knowledge for future generations, and it got him so I can't, I got most of this information from a film called less origin to the poem by a French filmmaker. And she, I believe, worked with Jangaliyev. And she basically made this film about his life, but also the origins of the apple. And, and so I haven't watched the film in a while, so I can't remember exactly what happened. But I Yeah, if I remember correctly, he ended up getting exiled from Kazakhstan. But then after the end of the Cold War, he went straight back and continued his work.

Liz

I love him

Hazel

And yeah, and ended up setting up this organisation to to like preserve this forest because he believed that was very important because a lot of the apple varieties we have today are quite susceptible to pests and diseases. And this original Apple forest has varieties or types of apple that are naturally resistant and so they could be used to develop the varieties that are more resilient. In the case of, you know, some something like that disease that killed off like, all of the bananas.

Liz

I would not want to lose the apples. This this guy is like, I was kind of joking when I called him the saviour of the apples, but I think he might actually be the saviour of the apples.

Hazel

He really is. He really is. I just he, that's why I wanted to dedicate this episode to him, because I think he was a wonderful man. And yeah, so that that is the origin of the apple, which then travelled out on the trading routes across Europe and Asia, and, obviously, became really popular, because it's delicious. And that was that was aided by the development of grafting, which no one knows exactly when or where that was invented, because it's one of those techniques that seems to be invented kind of independently of each other around the same time, because it's just a thing that everyone wants to do. However, there is a reference to it. Around 300 BC, by Theophrastus, a pupil of Aristotle who wrote a treatise on propagation and describes a variation of grafting using a rootstock. So,

Liz

figured that out fairly early then.

Hazel

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's thought that that was, you know, part of the not part of the initial agricultural revolution, but still quite an early development. And so then we are able to, to spread these apple varieties around and to make new varieties. And so you get like, there's just there's like, hundreds, if not 1000s of different apple varieties in the world. And some of them are really old, for example, there's a variety called Court pendu plat that was thought to have been brought to Britain by the Romans, and is still grown in some places today. And I think think we might have one actually, which is quite a nice it's a nice eating apple and then we've got eating apples and cooking apples Of course. So things like your Bramleys your early Arthur Turner's cooking apples, and then so their flavour is more brought out once once the cooking process happens, and then you've got the eating apples, which obviously you can just pick off the tree and are delicious of like, loads of different flavours of apples, so I could go on about this. But yeah, so you've got these apples, all across Europe, and Asia as well. And then moving across to North America, with settlers. And you have the famous story of Johnny Appleseed who moves across the country, going west and planting apples everywhere so that when people arrive, they'll be able to have food. Yeah. Which, as I've just explained, If he was doing it from seed. It's not really gonna work. I mean, that's,

Liz

doing his best

Hazel

yeah, yeah. Like it's a cool, it's cool at it.

Liz

I don't know the story of Johnny Appleseed feels kind of weird, because it's like, ah, there was definitely nothing to eat here before planting apples. Ignore those thriving societies over there.

Hazel

Yes. I mean, it's not like there was no, no substitute for the apple. But yeah. So in the 19th century, this sort of really took off with the the development of loads of new varieties. I mean, slightly, partly in the 18th century as well, but the 19th century being one of industrial revolution in many places, that also extended to agriculture. And people were wanting to develop, you know, new new varieties of food as well, that could sort of be scaled up to feed these new societies. And it wasn't just states and governments doing this. It was also, you know, everyone who was rich enough to have a big garden kind of wanted in on it, like, it was kind of a, like a little status symbol almost to like, Oh, here's this new variety that was created by my gardener in my garden. So it wasn't like most of these people were doing it themselves. Like they all had gardeners.

Liz

Yeah, it was kind of the big hobby for vicars at that time wasn't it was like, I'm going to invent a new rose. Oh, yeah.

Hazel

Roses is one of the famous ones as well. And in fact, they are same family because roses produce a fruit rosehips.

Liz

Delicious.

Hazel

Ah, yeah, I'm gonna make some brews hip syrup. In a few weeks. Gonna be Great. Loads of vitamin C.

Liz

Yeah I have rose hip tea quite a lot in the winter.

Hazel

Oh, nice. Yeah, so then you get a lot of these new varieties of Apple being developed and named after the Lord or Lady of the manor. So we've got a lord Derby and a lady sudely, in our garden. And Arthur Turner, which I'm not sure, I mean, sometimes they end up being named after the actual person that either made or discovered them. For example, Granny Smith, Granny Smith was from Sussex. She emigrated to Australia. And she found this apple tree growing just just around. And she kind of asked people and they were like, I don't know, that's just always been there. And she thought the apples were quite nice. And then she sort of took took a graft and started spreading them around and that's why Granny Smiths are called Granny Smiths.

Liz

So she didn't actually invent the granny Smiths she just marketed them.

Hazel

No she just found that apparently

Liz

presumably from what you've said, means that someone else invented that variety and either took it to Australia or invented it in Australia and then she was just like, This is mine now.

Hazel

I mean, it sounds like it might be one of those that was not necessarily invented by someone but it just happened.

Liz

ok

Hazel

Or possibly it was in someone's garden and then there wasn't a garden anymore, but the tree was still there. And then it was foul. Yeah. This is on thin ice. We will find out more we will continue with the trial of Granny Smith

Liz

Yeah, when we do apples part two

Hazel

Yeah, so and then we get to today we have these trademarked varieties of apple like Pink Lady. i You might notice that's always sold as a brand. Like it's it's a registered trademark, the Pink Lady apple. So like, presumably you can't just grow that in your garden and then sell it? I don't know. Um, yeah, but like sadly, I think I country. Yeah. If anyone wants to guerilla grow these. You have my blessing.

Liz

you just stand there like yeah.

Hazel

But yeah, sadly, you can't get most varieties in the supermarket. You get your Carlo's Braeburn Granny Smiths your Golden Delicious, which I have I have family beef with golden delicious.

Liz

Oh family beef. I have beef because they're not delicious.

Hazel

They are not. But also I have inherited grudges against the Golden Delicious apple.

Liz

I mean, you have to elaborate now

Hazel

So, the Golden Delicious, was heavily marketed by the French government in the 1960s, and 70s. As this delicious apple, they had this advert that was like, it's all about le cronch. I know it worked. And these were, these were really marketed in Britain and sold there. And my grandfather, as you might expect, being the owner of an apple related business was not too happy about this. But ironically, the Golden Delicious apple tastes better if it's grown in Britain. It's not-

Liz

soil or something?

Hazel

I'm not sure exactly what it is. It might be something to do with climate like it actually prefers a more temperate climate. But yeah, it just the ones that are grown in like this really warm south of France, don't they don't taste of much. So yeah, so like, not that delicious. And also interloper. I know that's not fair because everything's an interloper. Once you get far down enough.

Liz

bloody foreign apples...

Hazel

It's just, it's just my like, family loyalty, you know?

Yeah, so that's, that's why I am prejudiced against delicious but yeah, it's, um, unfortunately, a lot of these older varieties, or even these just more diverse varieties. They're dying out because they're not as commercially viable. Like, you can't just either they don't keep for long enough or they're not big enough or they I mean, even you can only get one variety of cooking apple in most shops, and that's the Bramley. And even then, like, they only sell like, there's just one crate of it. It's not like there's a whole row of the different varieties of eating apple and then there's just one small amount of cooking apple.

Liz

Yeah, which I, I have a problem with the lack of variety of apples in supermarkets because it's they've stopped selling my favourite apple.

Really? What's that?

A Cox's Orange Pippin

Hazel

I love Cox.

Liz

I stopped seeing them in supermarkets.

Hazel

Oh, yeah. Oh, I didn't I didn't know that. That's such a shame. Yeah, so I think like, we have an Ellison's orange, which is an apple that tastes Orangey. It's amazing. But it would never have been grown commercially, because they're small, and they go a bit soft after a couple of weeks. Yeah, that's just, it just makes me sad that things like this will probably end up being lost, although there's definitely a lot of organisations and individuals that care about this sort of thing and want to preserve these varieties, and keep them going. And you can even although there's been a decline in apple orchards, in a lot of places in the last century, and that doesn't mean the trees have gone. A lot of times, like the orchard might have gone out of business, but they didn't just cut all the trees down. Like, if the land hasn't been developed, they're still there. Or even if it has, there might be one or two of them still around.

Liz

cutting them down will just cost more money.

Hazel

yeah. So so you can just find old apple trees hanging around and it can be fairly easy to identify the apples and then you could just take a take a little graft of it and grow it at home. So you know, and that is actually how a quite a few varieties have been rediscovered. Yeah, so it's it's not all a bleak outlook. And, you know, thanks to the dedicated work of people like Dr Aimak Jangaliyev. The, the progenitor of the domesticated Apple is still there, and could be used to develop new varieties. So that's actually good. Yeah,

Liz

So cool.

Hazel

Yeah, so that is, that's where I'm gonna leave it at the moment. Because I mean, obviously, I've missed quite a lot out there. But yeah, it's just gonna go forever if I try and talk about the entire history of the apples, so I think, yeah, if, in the future, when we do sort of a part two, I'll probably talk more about how it was used in recipes, historically, how it was stored, like different kinds of varieties that were popular in different parts of the world, that kind of thing. But for now, I just wanted to go with kind of the origins of the apple and the varieties why we have so many and how it spread, and that kind of thing. There we go.

Liz

You've definitely made me want to eat an apple.

Hazel

There you go.

Liz

and visit the forest [crosstalk]

Hazel

I know. Like I Oh, if I could one day visit, as far as that would be like an absolute dream. But yeah, on day one. There is there is a movement now in Kazakhstan, apparently. To conserve the apple. In fact, the I'm just gonna I'm just gonna check on this, but I'm pretty sure what I read was correct. That V. Capital. Oh, no. Okay. It's not

Liz

just cut that out.

Hazel

Ah, okay. Ah, okay. I wasn't wrong. Exactly. So Almaty, which was the capital of Kazakhstan from 1929 to 1997. It literally means, like, Apple city.

I like that.

Yeah. But sadly, a lot of the apples like most of the apples available in Kazakhstan today aren't grown there. They're Chinese apples. So but but yeah, there's apparently there is now you know, thanks to the work of these people. There's now like a push to take care of this place in Kazakhstan. And there's like an organisation that advocates for Yeah, for preserving it and, and taking care of it, which is great.

Probably Bad Plug 42:51

Hazel

Okay, so what's our local larder today?

Liz

Um, I wanted to talk about tequila. And Mezcal.

Hazel

Okay.

Liz

Um, well, I recently learned the tequila and mescal have kind of a squares and rectangles thing. So I thought I would talk about it, which I think should be a nice short one to go with the with with the long apples.

Hazel

Yes, I have no idea how long I talked for.

Liz

like I said, it's kind of a squares and rectangles thing where all tequila is mezcal. But not all mezcal is tequila.

Hazel

Right?

Liz

So Mezcal is a liquor distilled from agave. There's about 30 different types of agave that you can use. And tequila is specifically distilled from the blue agave.

Hazel

Right?

Liz

Also has a I don't know if it's a UNESCO geographical thing, or if it's just a this is widely accepted, but it also has to be distilled in the Mexican state of Jalisco.

Okay, so it's like a an origin thing.

Yeah. Tequila specifically from that one, agave and made in that one state.

Hazel

I see. So, does it have a different? I assume it has a different taste from the other agave plants

Liz

um, yeah, the so the blue agave has a sweeter taste to it.

Hazel

Ah.

Liz

So tequila tastes different from most of the mezcal

Hazel

I assume the one pound tequila shots that they served at Willow were not be certified tequila

Liz

I mean, they might have been because a lot of tequila is produced but it might have been Mezcal.

Hazel

Okay. So is Mezcal like a cheaper version, or?

Liz

Well, Mezcal is just the general name for distilled agave. Basically, if it's a drink made from agave cactus, it's a Mezcal.

Hazel

Oh, okay. I see. That was kind of how, like how Champagne is a wine, but like a sparkling wine, but it's only champagne if it comes from that specific region.

Liz

Exactly. It's the same sort of thing. Yeah, where it's like this here is a highly specific variety of of this drink. Okay, I think I think Mezcal is less well known as a word than tequila is in the UK.

Hazel

Yeah. Cuz I've heard are sometimes like, they will have Mezcal and a bar and I've been like, Oh, what's that? But I know what tequila is?

Liz

Yeah. Um, yes. So mescal generally. probably goes back to at least the Olmec civiLization.

Hazel

Wow.

Liz

We know that the Aztecs made it because we have accounts from Don Pedro Sanchez, De Tagle? Tagle? was a conquistador. Yeah, it comes from him and other conquistadors, basically they ran out of brandy and started copying the Aztecs who were making Mezcal. But we now think that they probably themselves got the idea from the olmec

Hazel

okay

Liz

they're the this guy Don Pedro sets up a tequila factory in Jalisco in about 1600. And as tequila started being made you know when things say by royal decree there was tequila by royal decree under licence from the Spanish King Carlos the fourth, the Cuervo family who still make it, it's the biggest brand of tequila Is Cuervo in the US and then elsewhere in the 1880s as tequila so I think possibly the reason that teqila is more well known than Mezcal generally is because that's what was exported was specifically the tequila. Ah, I see. But yeah, it started being started sort of becoming a generic term for Mezcal until the Mexican government in 1974 said no, this is what tequila is. It's different from Mezcal and it's also ours. It's Mexican intellectual property.

Hazel

Oh, nice.

Liz

Yeah, there are over 900 brands of tequila.

Hazel

Wow.

Liz

And then obviously elsewhere in largely Mexico, but also other places in South and Central America and a cou- I think there's a couple of places in the southern states as well, make mezcal So it's this huge thing.

Hazel

Yeah, that is a big industry.

Liz

And interestingly, the tequila Regulatory Council of Mexico only allowed flavoured tequilas to be called tequila in 2004.

Hazel

Okay. Interesting.

Liz

It's, I mean, it's big business for Mexico.

Hazel

Yeah,

Liz

you can tell from the existence of 900 different brands. So it makes sense that they want to protect it.

Hazel

Oh, yeah. I mean, much like Italian cheeses.

Liz

But I mean, it's like, George Clooney has a brand of tequila.

Hazel

Really?, does it? If so, if someone would say if I want to have my own brand of tequila, would I still have to have it produced in Mexico?

Liz

Oh, yeah. Otherwise it wouldn't be whiskey, like. Specifically, you would have to have it produced in Jalisco.

Hazel

Oh, right. Yeah. Wow.

Liz

But yeah. The tequila brand casamigos. portmanteau of Casa and amigos. Very creative, George, was co founded by George Clooney. In 2013,

Hazel

wait doesn't it just mean house friends.

Liz

Yeah, it's a portmanteau of house and friends

Hazel

housefriends!

Liz

housefriends. Via them, tequila really takes off in 1936 with the invention of the margarita. Okay, yeah. And yeah, like I said, it's now this huge thing you get craft tequila is like same as you get craft beers. There's tequila variations of existing cocktails like the Oaxaca old fashioned, which is an old fashioned with tequila.

Hazel

Wow. Sounds interesting.

Liz

Yeah, and mezcal just doesn't you know, mezcal doesn't have novelty songs written about it. Also tends to be darker in colour. Interestingly, they Okay. Presumably something to do with the makeup of the blue agave.

Hazel

Oh cool

Liz

Oh, it's a short local larder, but I did not know that they were that tequila was mezcal, or that it was such a huge thing. And I thought that you would find that interesting.

Hazel

I did find it very interesting. Like I'm not a regular tequila drinker, shall we say? But, yeah, I really want to try just mezcal now. Mm hmm. Thanks for enabling me

Liz

I've given you an excuse to buy alcohol. Yes. So thank you for listening. And if you want to support us and maybe help us one day go to the Apple forest in Kazakhstan. We would need a lot of patrons for that but we are on as bread and thread.

Hazel

You can also find us on Twitter at thread and thread where we have teasers for upcoming episodes, interesting facts

Liz

and pictures and things from episodes. We also post the same things on Tumblr as bread and thread.

Hazel

We are on YouTube. Also as Bread and thread.

Liz

The branding is strong. If you want to suggest an episode or a local larder, or just say hi. You can email breadandthreadpodcast@gmail.com. And I think that's everything.

Hazel

Yeah, I think that's all of all the pies that we have our fingers in

Liz

We will be back in a couple of weeks.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai