ASM110 Secular Fundamentalism, Bye Bye Bees, and Jesus in Space

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secular fundamentalism bye bye bees and jesus in space all that and more on this week's episode of ask science [Music] [Applause] though he may mice understand he'll talk anyway he got problems he won't stop there but he'll talk and talk and talk until he flew in the face science faith welcome to ask science mike the weekly podcast where i answer your questions about science faith and life as a non-scientist non-pastor non-expert i'm just a guy who reads a lot and has kind of an interesting life story in terms of science and faith so we've got some really fun questions this week and i can't wait to do them so let's get it started [Music] well welcome back to ask science mike newly returned from a medical break and i've just got to tell everyone uh i feel great i really feel great um this new regimen that my neurologist has put me on with uh i guess normal working days i've been encouraged to not uh not do 12 or 14 hours as i am sometimes tempted to do but working normal days taking breaks and taking the medicine i'm supposed to take i've got i feel positively bubbly this no headache thing is amazing you should try it uh for those of you who may be new to the show or are catching up um i don't know almost two years ago i had a motorcycle accident and i've been dealing with some symptoms from a brain injury ever since including a headache that i had 24 hours a day seven days a week for almost two years and i don't have a headache i forgot what that was like um it's amazing how much clearer you think how much more energy you have when you don't have a headache i haven't had any of these episodes where i you know i can't read or i get really confused i feel uh pretty pretty normal um so that's really exciting and uh makes me really excited to do the show i don't feel so exhausted or worn down i think maybe next time i go on tour i might really take rest days next time we'll see but uh for now i feel really good speaking of tour i'm not going on tour but i do have a few dates on the calendar um may 13th i'll be at christ church in greenwich connecticut may 16th i'll be at buckhead church in atlanta georgia with their singles group which i understand is quite large september 15th we'll do the liturgist gathering in los angeles october 6 the liturgist gathering in boston october 27th the liturgist gathering in seattle now the liturgist gathering is an amazing event every single one has been different but we go to a city we get four or 500 liturgists in the same room people who listen to liturgist podcasts people who have had some fascinating traumatic beautiful horrific faith journey and we all sing together and meditate together and deconstruct together and reconstruct together and go to bars together and basically figure out that it's not just you you are not alone and we prove it by getting several hundred of us in a room at the same time totally amazing for more information go to the liturgistsgathering.com [Music] also october 21st i'm doing the rubicon conference in dublin ireland i'm absolutely tickled pink over this i've wanted to do rubicon for years uh one of the people involved in putting on together greg from alts is a friend of mine who's his work i really enjoy very talented writer and talented filmmaker so i'll be doing rubicon and then november 15th i'll be at the ripple effect conference in lawrence massachusetts now speaking of dublin i'm also going to do some other stops in uh the uk so october 11th we will be doing an ask science mike live in london england more details to come october 13th and october 14th or 15th we'd like to add a couple more stops so if you've got a venue in sheffield manchester edinburgh or glasgow and several of you tweeted me and told me i'm saying glasgow wrong i apologize i listen to a pronunciation and i can't hear the difference i am both southern and learning disabled so sometimes pronunciations are tough for me i apologize either way if you'd like to make fun of me in person in glasgow you can do that all you have to do is find a venue that can host ask science mike if you go to my website and click on speaking or uh yeah speaking uh then you will get to chafing management and they can take you through the process of hosting me this is incredible uh really really inexpensive way to host an ask science mic live and with that we'll do a you know multi-stop at science mike live uk tour in support of my book finding god in the waves which is out in the uk so for those of you who have already read it fantastic i can sign it for those of you who don't have it yet this will be an opportunity to pick up a copy so that's all the events that's all we have to say on events so if you want to learn more go to mikemcarg.com or ask sciencemike.com because mkharg is pretty hard to spell and click on the events tab and you can get information about all this stuff uh the the churches i'll be at the conferences i'll be at the liturgist gathering and the rubicon conference and with that let's do some questions [Music] hey science mike i've been binge listening to your podcast and going through your book since coming across you a few months ago and i really appreciate everything that you're doing one question that stayed with me as i've been listening to discuss theology is connected to your belief in the physical resurrection of jesus the evangelical communities that i've grown up and since left you could believe almost anything and you might not be considered a mature believer but you were still in so long as you believed in the physical resurrection of jesus i understand this belief in metaphorical terms now and think it's rich and full in its uncertainty but my question is if you believe in the physical resurrection then what do you do with the living body of jesus how do you think through the logical implications of this belief did he ascend into heaven is he walking among us today in his new body is he with the father awaiting his triumphal physical return and if he did physically arise do you think the rest of us will too i'd love to hear you think through some of these ideas out loud thanks so much amber well amber you have a frequently asked great question and i just worry that my answer will deeply disappoint you and not be satisfying to anyone but me but i'll answer it anyway you said you've read the book so you've read all about you know my you know poetic expression of resurrection as a signature of the divine as echoed throughout the cosmos and the rhythm of the birth of stars and planets and galaxies and life itself resurrection is is the norm not the exception in our universe but for most of our particular manifestations of consciousness in the universe death seems awfully final first of all you kind of alluded to this idea of physical resurrection being like the the anti um the minimum profession required to be accepted in evangelical circles and i don't worry a lot about being accepted in any circles whatsoever evangelical circles included i have a lot of evangelical friends there are a lot of evangelical folks that listen to this podcast and to the liturgist podcast but what i say is not crafted in such a way to seek their acceptance or approval or really anyone else's i'm a little punk rock that way my belief in the resurrection of jesus is an entirely personal matter and this is an important distinction because it is not a fact claim i don't assert that jesus walked out of an empty tomb and defend it and consider the logical implications of it the same way i assert that the acceleration of gravity in earth's gravity well is 9.8 meters per second squared i'll i'll fight you on that one if you disagree with me i will present my case strongly and ask on what grounds you descent because it's it's very measurable evidence for the acceleration in earth's gravity well is overwhelming it is an empirical belief my belief in a bodily resurrection is not an empirical belief as i understand it the empirical evidence to support a bodily resurrection is insufficient for such an incredible claim so how can i believe that and still be an empiricist i can't which is why i'm also a mystic now mysticism and empiricism are not terribly compatible it is admittedly messy the way i work is in items or beliefs i will defend to other people i use empiricism and beliefs that inform how i explore currently unanswered and possibly unanswerable questions i am comfortable allowing mysticism to guide me and because i'm a christian my mysticism is informed by the teachings traditions and scholarships of the christian church catholic lower c catholic universal uh i allow the teachings and experiences of all christians to influence my mystical experiences while being non-exclusionary i'm not above reading some insights of sufi mystics or buddhists or jewish mystics or people from non-mystical religious traditions all of their experiences with the divine interest and enlighten me just not a real big boundaries guy anymore so when you say what do you do with the living body of jesus how would you think through the logical implications of this belief i don't consider that belief logically it's far too fragile the resurrected christ is something i encounter in my contemplative mystical practice my friend richard war told me once that we cannot know god but we can love god and through loving god we can come to a knowledge of god i would even say a knowledge of sorts of god and i've heard jesus speak to me i've heard his voice jesus has been there for me so many times in my life so when i pray when i contemplate sometimes i encounter a bodily christ and that's it full stop there's no more i'll really even say on that matter some of those experiences are far too dear to me to articulate into words and in the process lose my hold on them at least not yet so if if the resurrection is poetically or spiritually inspiring to you great approach it on those terms i i don't require you to believe in a bodily resurrection i would agree if you thought that was silly i will say that i found among many people accepting a spiritual resurrection of christ opens something in you that will often lead to accepting a bodily resurrection of christ so be careful with this christ his invitation is strong [Laughter] did christ ascend into heaven where's heaven i don't know the people who wrote the gospels understood a three-tiered universe with a place of the dead below a surface of the earth and a dome of heaven so that story of jesus ascending into the sky would be very clear to people in that time is jesus returning to heaven but uh we've got cassini out there we've got new horizons out there we've got voyager 1 and 2 out there they have not struck a dome of heaven hubble and kepler assume the james webb space telescope have peered deep into the night sky they have seen no dome of heaven now if the dome of heaven is the edge of the observable universe that mysterious veil of microwave radiation maybe jesus accelerated towards that at which point he must have done so very very quickly or jesus is still flinging through space in a resurrected body hopefully not asphyxiating do you see why thinking through the logical implications is not particularly helpful for a mystical belief it's incredibly helpful and enlightening for an empirical belief um does jesus walk among us today i hope so is he with the father awaiting his triumphant physical return i don't know if jesus showed up to reconcile all things to god i'd be happy to see him if jesus physically arose will the rest of us too i don't know what does that mean i don't i don't know what happens the people who wrote the gospels wrote in a particular theological understanding of the world and a cosmological understanding of the world could jesus have had a physical resurrection whose job and ascension frankly whose job was to speak to a particular understanding of the world the truth of god's love maybe i guess that would make more logical sense but the resurrection is not a puzzle i'm trying to solve it's not a serial podcast it's it's not a murder mystery it's a statement from the divine to us that death is not the final answer in this universe that chaos and entropy are not the soul agents of measuring progress over time that at the heart of everything is love and that belief is absolutely mystical and absolutely unempirical and it fills me with a joy and a peace that i can't explain even when things are tough even when i had uh well when i was lying on a hospital bed with doctors rushing around uh convinced i'd had a stroke and counseling my wife that they had to act quickly because a clot could break loose and i could have a heart attack or a larger stroke and die and as i lied in that bed i was not afraid because death does not have the final answer and whatever happens at the end of my life i expect to be reunified with the source of all the ground of being the great mystery the great other god almighty all because i've heard jesus speak to me i was there when you were eight and i'm here right now and i believe it but i can't prove it and i admit that it's illogical [Music] our next question came in via email and it reads hi mike how serious is the large drop in bee population what are the potential consequences for us and if this issue does demand an urgent response what are the most significant practices we can implement to aid in their repopulation okay how serious is the large drop in bee population we're not sure this is this is a big deal we do know that colony collapse disorder was a big deal in 1998 there were three and a half million active bee colonies that's managed honey bee colonies in the united states by 2008 they were 2.4 million that's two years after in 2006 they diagnosed colony collapse disorder as a thing driving this drop in b populations that's a big drop 3.5 million to 2.4 million today 2016 there are 2.7 million colonies of honeybees in the united states bee populations are recovering slowly and colony uh collapse disorder is it disorder what am i talking about yes disorder sorry colony brain fart colony collapse disorder is slowing but bee losses are still higher than normal so bee keepers are having to work really hard to keep their hives healthy now i don't worry about domesticated honeybees going extinct their domesticated crop all that happens is we pay for the increased cost of employing their services honey prices go up food prices can go up the more man-hours are required to keep a necessary number of honeybee colonies the more expensive our food gets it's big deal i am curious uh seriously 100 serious vegans out there if you don't like consuming products that use animal labor where do you get your vegetables anyway email me 100 serious very curious um so i don't worry about honeybees disappearing things are getting better so what changed well both the united states and the european union under serious pressure from environmental groups restricted the use of pesticides and fungicides that were suspected to have played a role in colony collapse disorder environmental activism worked marvelous marvelous this is why it's important even now in a republican-controlled house and senate with a republican president in most republican state houses also or most state houses being controlled by republicans environmental activism cannot let up the the consequences are long term now why do we use these pesticides because it lowers costs in some areas increases crop yields pests are a problem anyway so that's what changed that's why honeybee populations are recovering and things seem to be getting better so happy ending right not quite as far as we can tell wild bee populations some species are still struggling now we don't know exactly it is incredibly hard to measure wild bee populations and uh [Music] there's all kinds of bees you've got bumble bees which make ground nests they have pretty small colonies but they have a queen but then uh many bees are i think maybe even most bees in the wild are solitary bees little solo bees who make nests with grubs and legal sacks of pollen to feed them and it's incredibly hard to tell of these thousands of bee species who's declining and at what rate and how that affects total populations but it matters because wild bees do more pollinating than domesticated honeybees domesticated honeybees are great at making honey and they're great at supplementing the work of wild bees but some studies indicate that significant portions of b species and possibly the b population in total is still declining even after we ban these pesticides we don't know exactly what's causing it but we suspect that pesticides are still playing a significant role pesticides are poisons designed to target insects and bees are insects so we can try to work via chemistry to make chemicals that are much more bothersome to pests and less to bees but there's so many bee species we're not able to test and if we do test how well do we test for mortality versus unforeseen effects with navigation or fertility right so this is this is a big problem uh well it could be a big problem we're not sure how big a problem it is how can you help you can call every legislature you vote for at the state and federal level and tell them you support funding for research into b populations and the intersection of pesticides and be health also this is from wired magazine talking about the cause and response to uh wild bee population loss here's the beginning of the quote we alter everything about our environment water light plants even the bacterial and fungal communities around us bees can't just appear for a week pollinate your plants and disappear they have to have something to eat the rest of the year and a place to live habitat loss pesticides and decreased floral diversity all take a toll on these little animals so you've got pesticides on the one hand you have habitat loss on the other we've got these manicured suburban lawns with foreign plants and very few uh places for bees to live to eat to rest okay so conservation often focuses on purchasing special pieces of land that haven't been trampled or paved yet that's not enough we can't save the bees by conserving little bits of habitat here and there in national parks we have to include space for them in our agricultural lands city parks and yards so what can you do don't use any pesticides on your property no matter how small your yard is plant native flowering plants on your property this gives the bees somewhere to eat native plants feed native bees best by the way native plants grow really well they're going to be adapted to your climate they're going to require nearly as much fertilizer or irrigation or attention as trying to cultivate non-native species in your yard also if you take a a container a bucket a pail whatever fill it with water then fill it with stones pretty good sized stones and then make sure the the stones come above the level of the water you've just created a bee drinking fountain right because they can climb on the rocks they can get to level the water even as evaporates and they can drink water okay if you live in mosquito areas regularly dump out this bee trough maybe on your native plants and refill it so you don't get mosquito larvae okay but that's that's what we've got to do this is a local action bees wild bee populations need places to live and we keep building houses everywhere and then putting foreign species in our gardens and saying what's wrong with the bees we got rid of their homes that's what's wrong with the bees and we spray pesticides everywhere uh really great question really vital questions so thank you for that question on bees and talk to your local nursery about native plants that bees thrive on [Music] hey science mike this question is going to be a science question having to do with the neurotheology behind deconversion from fundamentalism to atheism and whether or not we can replace fundamentalism between the two views viewpoints finding that i'm doing this i was a fundamentalist pentecostal for 21 years before i deconverted and after that deconversion i find myself being just as fundamental for secular humanism and atheism and free thinking i don't want to fall back into this trap of becoming irate with people that i don't agree with and getting them to shut down i really want to make an impact on people and show them that the belief system that i have and that i have reasons for believing it but i struggle with doing this what's going on in my brain when this is happening you've got this really sophisticated intricate neocortex wrapped around your brain like the you know tortilla around a burrito reasonably similar in thickness by the way your neocortex and uh or tortilla [Music] it's incredibly complex and ridged and folded on itself to increase its surface area and it's it's the miracle of the human brain that gives you language and culture analytical thinking all these things are gifted to you by your neocortex what is that wrapped around a scared and frightened animal who has no idea what civilization is if you peel away the neocortex you have a brain very much like a lower mammal and that's wrapped around the brain of a frog or lizard or crocodile that is just ready to snap at anything that threatens it uh we have to remember that when we think like why am i responding about whatever the way that i am is is it's how our brains are structured we have three brains with kind of different approaches to dealing with reality in our skulls and um in this case you have a craving for certainty because you're human humans all have a craving for certainty because we build this neuro-linguistic model of reality and the better our model of reality is the better our chances of survival are so we don't like to be surprised by figuring out we're wrong about how the world works and then you couple that with the fact that you're a social primate and you need to belong you need to feel like other people like you and appreciate you and yes agree with you this is the root of fundamentalism the craving for certainty we just can't kick or can we i would start by fostering empathy remember you used to believe in christian teachings and you believed them for a reason and you weren't dumb and you weren't backwards you were believing a series of teachings that were handed to you and that's exactly what has happened with secular humanism your old way of seeing the world didn't fit anymore and says someone handed you a better model for where you are today i love secular humanism i think it's an incredibly compelling philosophy if it weren't for my mystical attachment to the divine i'd be a secular humanist i understand atheism i've been an atheist i am an atheist about most ideas about god so here's you know i i celebrate your your beliefs but i celebrate them especially if you can combine them with some intellectual and epistemological humility because you haven't figured everything out you have better answers to some questions as you continue learning and secular humanist philosophy i think you may find that other questions have become a little harder to answer doesn't mean they're impossible just means that uh belief systems aren't intrinsically about finding truth they're about surviving that's how human brains work we're not we don't have truth seeking instruments in our in our heads we have surviving instruments evolution favored brains because they help organisms survive so understand you through empathy used to believe the same way understand that what you have now is an adaptation for survival that may in many ways more accurately help you interrogate physical reality great great you may find that fundamentalist worldview better equips them for illness or death of loved ones or themselves you may find that their belief system is really good at getting them care when they're in the hospital and taking care of their families do you see what i mean these different belief systems have pros and cons [Music] because they're survival adaptations so you avoid becoming a fundamentalist by letting go of the notion that you have arrived at the one true worldview and everyone else is wrong and you understand you've arrived at a world a metaphor that helps you navigate the world today and it may or may not work as well tomorrow or a year from now or a decade from now this is how i escape fundamentalism i am in love with the way i see the world today but i just hold it so loosely i learn new things all the time that challenge me that change the way i think about things i mean if i would have allowed myself to become a fundamentalist mystic whatever that looks like to become a fundamentalist scientist if i were to refuse to accept the critique of my friends of color about scientific claims of object objectivity i'd be blind to part of the world so instead to be open to listen to understand that people have things to teach me even when i disagree with them is to avoid fundamentalism so i learn from christians and atheists and clinton voters even trump voters i learn from everyone it doesn't mean i don't have beliefs it doesn't mean i don't scrutinize new ideas [Music] but it means i acknowledge that i'm one person among billions just trying to make my way through the world that inspires me with a great affection for all people and makes it impossible to regress into that holier-than-thou state we call fundamentalism well our last question came in via email and it reads dear science mike i found out i was pregnant and was going to be a single mom at 23. i had a miscarriage and lost the baby i had to completely change my life plans when i found out i was pregnant and then again when i lost the baby before i was pregnant i had a pretty good relationship with god now i've never felt more like a stranger from someone in my life i have no idea what to do i'm still surrounded by a community of believers that love me but not everyone knows what's going on three years ago i was raped by my then boyfriend and suffered a lesser feeling than i am with this loss what do you think the science is behind having a miscarriage or being sexually abused and having a major disconnect with everything and everyone i feel like i have shut down completely and i don't feel or know god anymore the first few months all i did was cry but now i don't have any emotions about anything i would really like your opinion on what the brain looks like throughout this and if there's anything i can do to help myself try and move forward hope to hear from you mary mary thank you for writing me and [Music] for having the courage to tell such a difficult story and i'm so sorry that you've experienced so much pain i'm sorry that you lost your baby and i'm sorry that you were raped and my apology means nothing and i know that it can't undo what has been done i just want you to know that i ache for the pain you're experiencing your story is why we've got to do a better job explaining sexuality to young men explaining how sex drives work and the essential role consent plays in absolutely every sexual encounter now i can't tell you exactly what's happening in your brain based on one email message it sounds like you could be suffering from a situational depression possibly a clinical depression possibly post-traumatic stress disorder um there are there are many many conditions that would be completely normal for you to experience after such trauma you see this is uh your brain trying to protect you you've experienced deep emotional pain which the brain experiences in a very similar way to physical pain and this has been encoded in your neurons in the form of memories and your brain has tried to condition you to avoid stimuli similar to that trauma and because you have so much latent emotional energy attached to those experiences in order to function your brain is probably deadening all your emotional responses which is why you don't feel god is near because we understand in most people's brains god is more like a feeling or an experience than an idea and when you feel dead to feelings you won't feel the presence of god i would open your bible to psalm 22 the first line is famous my god my god why have you forsaken me the gospels report that jesus said this on the cross and if you read psalm 22 you will see what jesus was quoting a story of feeling like when you've been attacked by the world that god is not present present and the assurances of scripture seem weak what can you do to move forward you can grieve you have been hurt i would encourage you to seek the counsel of a qualified credentialed mental health professional a therapist psychotherapist or counselor specializing in sexual trauma who can help you work through this in terms of your community believers that love you not everyone needs to know what is going on but if you've got a handful of people you can really trust you can talk to them you can cry with them you can tell your story you can tell god in prayer how much you've been hurt how betrayed and abandoned you feel how you don't even feel god's presence one of the most beautiful benefits of prayer is that kind of a therapeutic effect we have found studies that when people tell god about their hopes their dreams and their fears that they do experience psychological relief but the most important thing is going to be professional counseling and a more specific diagnosis uh about how this trauma has manifest itself in your life but just know it is normal it is completely normal to feel the way you feel how how could you not feel that way after such loss and such violation you're not evil merry you're not weird you're not broken you're not strange you're hurt you're deeply hurt and you are surviving you are still here i haven't done this in a long time mary um but if it's okay i would like to pray for you god you are a great mystery who sometimes feels as close as our next breath and sometimes as distant as the edge of our universe sometimes you seem as real as our dearest friend and sometimes as ridiculous as our imaginary childhood friend but god i i speak to you now with a broken heart for mary who i don't even know but i know that she has been hurt [Music] and i know that she feels far from you and so i pray that the pain and the trauma in her life begin to fade and as it does her heart would open to your presence again if that's what she desires god i pray that in you she would find a god who understands trauma and hurt and loss a god who spoke of perfect love and mutual submission of caring for the poor and the powerless and who was rewarded by hanging from a cross [Music] so god i just ask that [Music] a broken mary encounter a broken jesus and know that she is not alone and i pray that broken people all around her in her life would let her know that she is not alone so that the protective barrier around her feelings would fade and that salty river of grief would rush free so that she can begin to heal and move toward being whole because mary's story is not over she is not finished and she is a beautiful beloved creation of the source of everything god i would ask that mary find you [Music] closer than a friend closer than a memory closer even than the beating of her own heart [Music] amen [Music]