ASM029 Porn, HIV, and Even More on Masturbation

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warning the following program contains topics of a frank and mature nature listener discretion is advised porn hiv and even more on masturbation put the kids to bed it's time for ask science mike after dark

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welcome to ask science mike it's the weekly podcast where i answer your questions about science faith and life and this week is an after dark episode for those of you who may be new to the program on science like after dark we cover questions that are banned or taboo in polite society we talk about sex and drugs and really anything you send in so i hope you enjoy this week's program and if it's a little too much go ahead and join us next week for a normal episode of ask science mike our first question for this week's episode isn't even one question instead it comes from dozens of emails i got following our last after dark episode in that episode in response to a question about porn shared some of the things i thought were dangerous or harmful about pornography and i got a lot of pushback from my listeners for saying that now this was consistently thoughtful kind rational and reasonable pushback but it dwarfed anything i've ever gotten in the program which you know is surprising we've talked about drug use we've talked about pedophilia we've talked about some pretty difficult topics on this program but nothing hit a button quite as sensitive as discussing porn here's some of the things people said first of all i got a lot of emails from actual sex workers mainly cam girls and those are people who perform nude over the internet for people but i also got a few messages from current or uh former porn performers and that was not the only feedback i got i also got emails from researchers and psychologists and just people who were well read who said a few things one they said that porn is sex positive and that i should always reflect that porn is sex positive when i discuss it that porn empowers women that it does not in fact oppress women i got pushed back on saying that porn is addicting and people said i should you know do some more research on that again very kindly and finally some people that said that pornography does not over stimulate the brain so given the vast quantity of email i got i wanted to really do my homework before i came back to this topic i'm always open to looking at scientific data that people provide me and figuring out if i may be reading things wrong that's possible it might even be likely science is tough and there's a lot of a lot of different ideas out there in science so here's what i found one there's a concept in science called super normal stimuli and supernormal stimuli is anything in our environment that appeals to parts of our brain that are responsible for finding critical things like food shelter safety sex now you can see this in specific tested cases for example if you create artificial birds eggs that are larger and more brightly colored than natural songbird eggs mother birds will ignore their real eggs that contain their future generations and instead try to nourish and warm these fake eggs because they're bigger and brighter and therefore based on the instinct and the primitive parts of this bird's brain healthier or potentially more vibrant than the other eggs even though they're fake similarly some species of fish will attack brightly painted wooden decoys while ignoring real rivals for territory some other boards will even ignore real baby birds of their own and try to feed a fake baby bird that has a larger more brightly colored mouth than their real offspring male turkeys will try to copulate with very attractive or fake artificial turkey heads even if they don't have a body they're just on a stalk and so what's happening in all these cases is we've developed instincts that help us identify things in the environment which are good for us or desirable that have a lot of calories supernormal stimulus explains why we love potato chips and french fries and hamburgers so much why we love soda these things are are saltier and starchier and sweeter and more full of fat than anything we'd ever encounter in nature and when we encounter these sorts of stimuli it affects our willpower now consider pornography consider frankly the over-sexualized hyper-sexualized media we're surrounded with all the time with photoshopped abdominals and photoshop faces and cosmetic surgery and i'm not saying cosmetic is surgery is bad by the way first of all a lot of times it's corrective but even when it's not corrective people can do with their bodies as they wish but regardless it creates a situation where parts of our brains respond to bigger eyes or larger breasts or more narrow waists or more sexual partners for example there have been studies that have shown sexual novelty is a big factor in human attraction and so when i look at super normal stimuli and then i look at pornography it's difficult for me to not see something that over stimulates the brain much the way that a fake robin egg would over stimulate the brain of a robin now when i actually tried to look at this in data there is genuine academic conversations even controversy over whether pornography is an addiction or not there is no controversy that pornography can create compulsive behavior now the primary difference between a compulsion and an addiction is a compulsion is something that you simply do over and over thoughtlessly and sometimes against your will whereas an addiction typically has an escalation as part of the cycle where you have to get more and more of the stimulus to reach any state of satisfaction look at drug addiction so there are some psychologists and some neurobiologists who would say that gambling and pornography are compulsions and others who would say they are addictions either way they can produce undesired behavior even to the person who is exhibiting the behavior okay so in a very real way in studies pornography can subvert your willpower in fact one study found that frequent porn users brains respond to porn cues in the same way that drug addicts respond to drug cues now that's interesting and that research appears to have good methodology behind it i'll have links to it in this week's show notes on ask sciencemike.com along with a bunch of other stuff another study found that frequent porn consumption has in fact been linked to erectile dysfunction in young men where they're able to achieve an erection while watching porn but not able to achieve an erection with an actual partner of their desired gender so i definitely read everything you guys sent me but that gives me pause about pornography regardless of how it's produced regardless of how it may affect the people that produce porn there does seem to be in science real potential for human harm and human suffering from the simple act of frequently watching pornography and based on my email box and many studies it appears a significant number of people both male and female have difficulty resisting pornography it's not something they choose to do as much as something that becomes a compulsion now there are also reports in pornography that women being abused or manipulated or coerced is very common there are first-hand accounts you can find them on google they're very compelling frankly but because so many people in the industry contacted me i did something that i don't think has been done on a spirituality especially a christian spirituality podcast before i actually reached out to a porn actress and asked if she'd talk to me reena skye is a professional pornography performer and she retweeted something i tweeted that was about feminism and emma watson's he for she campaign retweeted it and then rina retweeted as well from there i asked if she would be willing to talk to me for the program and she was now i'd talk to several performers who work in the adult industry already but they were not willing to go on record and i wanted to have someone who would let me use their name before i aired this episode that's why it's taken so long so thank you reena for letting me go on the record and i'm gonna do my best to just accurately relay everything that she said to me in our conversation now first of all rina skye is an independent pornographic performer she's not represented by an agency she's not tied to any specific distributor and i asked her about ethically sourced porn in other words if there are people who are concerned with industrial agriculture and how it's produced and they look for better alternatives but still want to eat meat if someone still wants to watch porn are there ways that they can be sure what they're watching was produced without you know coercion or manipulation or abuse and here is what reena skye told me number one she said that no one enters the porn industry on the best day of their life which i thought was a telling quote and she also admitted that victimization does happen and sometimes is an exploitation of addiction so it's not necessarily very healthy for people who struggle with substance abuse addiction to work in this industry because there are those who would manipulate that that said rina says she enjoys her work and has total control over what job she takes and which one she doesn't and once she's on set what she does and does not do because she has her own website that she controls her own platform and her own fans and she said that's a key thing to look out for is someone who is effectively their own business person who has their own relationship with consumers and therefore is not likely to do anything they don't want to do she also said that you know if you look at performers who are available for webcam shows without coercion because trafficking is part of the webcam industry but people who operate their own set if you will that can be a sign of someone who is doing this as a choice and she said that independent performers like her have more control over their careers and their film choices so because i actually got about a dozen questions from people asking if there were ways to ethically source porn i went straight to the source that's what rena skye had to say now reena is a really nice person she actually told me she works with a lot of people that are very lonely people who aren't like me they're not married they don't have someone in their life who fulfills intimacy for them and she feels good about being able to provide some source of sexual excitement or connection to people who are lonely and i thought that was that was very compassionate you know this is a tough topic for me i'm actually legitimately happily married i've been with with jenny for 15 years and uh because of the intimacy in our relationship frankly that has gotten deeper the last few years following my journey through atheism and all that that stuff you know these aren't things i i think about directly these aren't issues i wrestle with like i may have years ago but i understand all of you men and women out there for whom pornography is a significant part of your sex life there are no easy answers here we certainly are creatures of intense sexual desire and arousal and pornography can help sate some of that in the absence of a partner or even when you have a partner some people enjoy the novelty and find it easier to stay faithful if they they look at porn or whatever that stuff is so far out of my league all i can do is stick to the science and there's a scientific case to be made that for some people abstinence is probably better for pornography than participation or viewing it so if you have any doubt that you can handle porn i'm going to go with science here and say it's best that you avoid it if you can handle it and you feel like it does not conflict with your spiritual ethic or anything you understand about god or specifically the teachings of christ i'm not going to judge you that's your life and the last thing i do is try to dictate what other people do in their bedrooms so i hope uh you'll go to ask sciencewike.com look over some of the links provided on this answer and make your own choice on spirituality and pornography our next question comes from the email inbox and it reads hey mike so i'm sure you've heard the fundamentalist notion that romans 1 27 men committed shameful acts with other men and received in themselves the due penalty for their heir means that aids is what gay men get for having gay sex could you expound upon the science behind aids is there a correlation between contracting the disease and being gay more specifically engaging in anal sex if the fundy interpretation of that verse is wacko could you offer another interpretation for what it could mean thanks so much i'm gonna take the answer backwards and start with the scriptural interpretation one i'm positive as sure as i get about anything that romans 1 27 was not describing modern monogamous same-sex relationships i'm totally certain about that i am slightly less certain but still confident that many historians are correct when they assert that romans saw sexual arousal as a continuum on a spectrum and that the most inflamed or aroused states possible were same-sex attraction that was not a separate orientation but merely a degree of lustfulness a little less confident still but still i think easily within consensus with historians would show that the only shame in roman culture for a man was to be penetrated and that a man could penetrate whomever he wished male female slave or free now some christian scholars believe that romans 1 27 is actually a reference to idolatry and sexual practices related to temple prostitution and i'll have a link to that explanation the show notes on asksciencemike.com frankly it's easier to read than to hear me recite if you need more detail than what i just gave you all that said when it comes to the bible i always avoid reading it without remembering that a specific author was writing to a specific audience with a specific agenda in a specific time place and culture it's not helpful generally to take anything in the bible at face value but instead to consider that a human author was writing for a purpose to specific people who aren't me leviticus was not written to me the book of romans was not written to me it's right in the title of the book it was the church in rome so when i read these things i'm finding the parts that are instructive to me i'm learning about the history of christianity and therefore how that can inform the present but i'm not reading the bible constitutionally it's not a list of do's and don'ts it's not a scientific or historical depiction of the history of the world or even the history of god the bible as i understand it is a collection of stories of flawed accounts of human encounters and understandings of god in an ongoing debate about the nature and character of god that continues to this day now i understand that puts me way way out with a lot of my listeners you know one of my favorite things about the show is we have both theologically conservative biblical literalists that come along for the ride uh as well as post theistic christian polygamists uh or polyamorous folk that listen to the show so uh it's a it's a really wide uh table at ask science mike and i'm just glad that everybody comes along for the conversation and uh frankly keeps the conversation interesting and civil now that's the scriptural portion let's talk about aids hiv and same sex sexual activities specifically gay men step one anal sex absolutely carries an increased risk of spreading hiv and many other sexually transmitted infections than vaginal sex that's true however anal sex is also more common than any other time in recent history right now among heterosexual couples including frankly purity culture teenagers we have soaring rates of oral and anal sex among evangelical teens trying to preserve their vaginal purity and with the corresponding uh detrimental health effects uh to go along with that so you know obviously earlier in gay culture anal sex was was much more common than it was in uh heterosexual culture those rates are are getting much closer to perigee today and uh frankly due to the much larger number of straight people there are many more straight people with hiv than gay people with hiv today now i would i would look at this data point if we're using this line of reasoning oral sex is safer in terms of hig transmission than both anal and vaginal sex so does that mean god is punishing people who have vaginal instead of oral sex well of course not no one thinks that the most conservative christian on the planet probably thinks that oral sex is a form of sodomy as is anal sex and that vaginal sex is is god's you know ordained form of sexual activity but just looking at the the medical data vaginal sex is a little more likely to transmit hiv than oral sex so i don't think aids is like god's punishment of the nations i think aids is a very clever virus that specializes in propagating among a type of human contact that requires our immune system compromise itself your immune system is designed to keep foreign agents out of your body and that's exactly what happens during sex foreign agents enter your body literally for both partners so safer sex practices are vital today it's important to use a condom it's important to be intentional about choosing sexual partners again there are some stis that transmit whether you're wearing a condom or not skin to skin contact and the general genital area is perfectly sufficient and we do want to remember that for both gay and straight people anal sex does carry a significantly elevated risk of sti transmission and therefore you'd really want to limit the number of sexual partners that you engage in anal sex with if that's something you're into be careful out there you know there's one thing to talk about and debate these biblical ethics and and what's permissible and consent and all these sorts of things but as someone who appreciates science i think we've really also got to consider you know what bacteria and viruses have to say about sexuality that doesn't mean i'm trying to be the boogeyman or scare people away from sex don't misunderstand me merely that we would be um a lot better off as a society if both conservative religious folk and sexually progressive folk were more prone to be less dogmatic about sex and more willing to simply look at medical data and make decisions based on that you know our sex drives can they can push past what our immune systems can protect us from we can desire more sex than is healthy for us and more partners that is healthy for us and i still remain comfortable understanding that i'm going to get pushed back for this like i have already in general less sexual partners are better and definitely definitely definitely use a condom so i'm sure i'll get more uh on this and everything i've just said i don't get anywhere near the pushback on any other episodes like i do uh at sky spike after dark but there we go that's my take on romans 1 27 hiv and anal sex [Music] one more question from the email box reads science mike i've listened to what you have to say about masturbation in previous episodes particularly about masturbating without objectifying people i find it very hard to masturbate to completion without thinking about being with someone sexually and for a long time this someone was my significant other however though i still have strong feelings of attraction and deep love for this person our relationship has recently ended and i can't seem to help feeling guilty for thinking about them when i masturbate now especially since they have moved on into a new relationship would you say this is indeed an unhealthy way to masturbate if so what would you suggest i do differently thanks so much love your show there's at least a little of me um that i can't believe how many masturbation questions we get on the show like i really i can't believe it it's not just men it's women and no matter how many times i think we've we've finally closed the book on masturbation on mass science mike i'm wrong more questions come in and i think that it's really condemning on our american culture and church culture in general and the kind of puritanical roots and the anxiety we have over basic sexuality so i want to review something from previous programs really quick there's nothing wrong with masturbation it doesn't destroy your soul you're not going to go blind most studies show that moderate amounts of masturbation are healthy they're good for people they're good for the systems down there they're good for the brain in contrast to my first answer this week about porn which i think is overstimulating there's no data saying that masturbation is over stimulating or leads to erectile dysfunction or anything like that it's a healthy release of sexual energy okay i'm very clear about that all that said even for me it's kind of weird to try to get in somebody's headspace when it comes to sexual fantasies i've been happily monogamous for a long time and a lot of those gears are rusty in my brain and i'm science mike so i can give you my opinion but there's not like data on you know healthy masturbation fantasies i can't find any and believe me i looked uh my google search history is a mess thanks to this show but uh let's look at it this way you were in a relationship and it's over now the security intimacy and pleasure you had with your partner they hang out in your mind they're familiar and there's nothing wrong with that and and furthermore i want to push back lightly on one thing you know you feel like it's wrong to to fantasize about your former partner now that she's in another relationship but let's remember that women are autonomous individuals and not property and if it's wrong to fantasize about your partner it's wrong as soon as the relationship is over not because they enter a new relationship now i know you didn't mean anything by that but i keep reading more and more feminists and becoming more and more aware the subtle ways in which our language tends to denote women are property of men and they're not now on the other hand your mental landscape is your mental landscape right as long as you don't manifest things into action uh what happens in your brain is just what happens in your brain and the question is whether it's good for you or bad for you um and i would say if the relationship is over it's probably healthiest to grieve and move on right this relationship is over and fantasizing sexually about the person isn't helping you release the feelings you have for them in fact you're reinforcing those memories and that stimulus was something really intense in the form of sexual stimulation and orgasm and that's going to make it really difficult to create any kind of distance now we are absolutely designed designed at least by evolution and i also argue by god to be attracted to other people and it's normal to think about other people when you're aroused my previous commentary was about reducing human beings to sex objects which i don't think is healthy or beneficial but certainly especially men are going to picture actual people when they masturbate and that's going to be a huge component of achieving climax and this is all by design your body would like you to have sex with someone specifically and so uh you're vetting candidates and and sort of giving yourself the drive and desire potentially to turn some of these fantasies into something real it's a it's a tale as old as time if i could ruin beauty and the beast for a few people i wouldn't stress about it i would just try to redirect yourself into other places mentally when you're masturbating i wouldn't spend a lot of times like being punitive with yourself or shaming yourself just redirecting just reconditioning and over time you'll grieve and you'll move on and it will be healthy our last question came in via email and it reads mike i have a heavy question for you my wife has a very promiscuous past many sexual partners and heavy porn use it all started when she was sexually abused at age 13 became active on her own will at age 14 and abuse occurred from a different source at age 16 and beyond she's expressed to me that she enjoys sexual activity where she is dominated and or controlled months ago when fifty shades of grey was the ruckus in the christian community i had a friend post publicly on facebook that anyone who enjoys dominating sexual activity must have an abusive past and it raised a question for me and potentially connected dots in my head that i never knew existed is there any significant scientific or otherwise psychological link between abuse and or promiscuity at a young age and a certain style of sexual expression later in life thanks so much for considering my question this is obviously an issue that weighs heavy on my heart and mind and i want direction on how to proceed anonymity is appreciated thanks well first of all i want to thank you for reaching out and asking a difficult question and i would sort of ask you a couple things does your wife ask you to do anything that makes you uncomfortable do these suggestions of a link between dominant and submissive sexual activity and sexual abuse resonate with you because you have something in your sexual history that feels like abuse if either of those are the case i'd invite you to go see a mental health counselor for yourself don't even worry about your wife right now and see if there's there's things in your life you need to come to terms with in your sexual history now that aside if we consider any potential link between promiscuity well guess what many people are promiscuous and by promiscuous i mean they have frequent sex with casual sexual partners without any history of sexual abuse and many people are sexually adventurous meaning they enjoy a variety of sexual activities or some specific fetish without any history of abuse meanwhile there are many people who have history of sexual abuse who have very low libido or normal sex drugs and i put normal and giant quotations there or enjoy you know normal or very vanilla sexual activities there's no clear linkage and data or studies that suggest abuse is a clear predictor for promiscuous or even specifically dominant submissive sex acts it's just not there in the data now on the other hand psychologists are in agreement almost universal agreement that abuse can manifest itself in unhealthy or self-destructive sexual behaviors and when i say this i'm talking about sex without pleasure i'm talking about compulsive sex i've talked about people have sex when they don't want to not that they're being raped or coerced but simply they have a compulsion to have sex with people as a result of abuse and if those are the mechanisms driving your wife's behavior they are unhealthy but let's talk a little bit about how i look at sexual ethics today and how to make choices related to sex first of all i'm very focused on consent when it comes to sex is everyone involved choosing to participate if it's yes for everyone involved proceed now is there coercion or manipulation involved is uh someone's past being manipulated uh is someone in a position of power using that to create leverage to create or or force consent from someone in a position of less power or privilege if if that's the case don't proceed now that's not it it's not just is consent involved and is there a lack of coercion or manipulation but also have any risk factors like sexually transmitted diseases or the amount of time and partners since the person has been last tested been disclosed that has to happen for sex to be ethical if one person is having sex with partners and not disclosing that to their primary partner or other partners they are creating a risk of sexually transmitted disease being infected and that's not ethical right that's what i'm talking about everyone's got a consent there can't be coercion manipulation and people have to be aware what risk they are putting themselves in that's why it's so critical that we're selective with sex partners and have sex with people we can trust because it only takes one person to violate that trust to give you a potentially life-threatening disease that can't be cured this is heavy stuff now inside of those constraints or once those constraints are satisfied it's not my job to decide what's healthy for someone else if they consent it's never my job it's not my job to figure out whether my wives sexual motivations are healthy or not it's only my job to know what i'm comfortable with and what my partner enjoys and the intersection of those things are in our sex life together so if your wife is interested in domination play and you're not you can be honest and say i'm uncomfortable with this and here's why and it can be a discussion and if it's you know if she's not able to have any sort of sexual satisfaction without it then you need to have time in the bedroom or not in the bedroom that's a conversation and figure out where some shared values may be where you can find mutual enjoyment that's that's the best part of sex is the intimacy between two people of learning with your minds what each other's bodies enjoy we're so quick to just like box things in is this okay is this not okay you know that's for you to figure out in your own mind whether things are coming from you know some some place of compulsion some place of trauma or whether it's just something you enjoy if you have any question about that the best person to ask non-threateningly and empathetically is your wife if you're concerned that her interest in submissive sex acts or dominant sex acts is related to trauma ask her you'll there's no better person to ask than her if you you know have trouble with her answer or you have trouble dealing with it but she seems to feel like she's coming from a place of health now it's time for you to go see a mental health counselor and honestly here's the deal this is anecdotal this is not scientific but in my experience some of the people that post on facebook about this stuff some of the people that scream the loudest about uh specific types of sex it's because they struggle with a desire for the activity that the taboo is alluring to them i honestly i don't let what people post on facebook really inform my life decisions i love facebook i love to see you know people on vacation i love to see what people are up to i love family pictures but you know like politics and religious issues and spirituality issues i vet that stuff pretty heavily i'm i'm gonna rely more on academic sources trusted spiritual advisors you know people i know in flesh and blood and have in-person conversations with and a bunch of facebook posts it's just just not very interesting to me you told me in your message that this weighs heavy on your heart so let me offer you some freedom by saying you are not responsible for your wife's mental health you are responsible for loving your wife well she's not your property she's not a delicate object on the shelf she's a human being with whom you've chosen to partner with and walk through life together so don't try to control her thoughts don't try to feel like it's your responsibility to own her headspace or her feelings it's merely your job to be the best partner in life for her that you can be and if you do that i think you might find that you both become healthier over time [Music] well that's it not only for another episode of ask science mike but another episode of ask science mike after dark these are without question the episodes i get the most nervous about the show keeps getting more popular every time we do an after dark episode i'm convinced it's the one that's going to convince everybody to run away and stop listening and get upset about something i said you know just a little bit of shared fear interestingly enough every time we do an after dark episode it tends to take the show to new record highs and subscriber counts so i'm taking that as an indication not that i have something special to say but that there's a large desire in america across the world and specifically in christian and and spiritual subcultures to have more open discussions about sex and sexuality about drugs and about tough topics it's the only reason i can think so many people listen to these shows and why they tend to generate so much more email than the other episodes and with that said man guys i gotta thank you the quality of the emails i get from this program are insane you know i've talked to other people who do podcasts who have larger platforms and they're blown away by the quality of the discussion and the critique and the information my listeners send me you are just quality human beings and i'm glad to be on this journey with you now a couple things coming up first of all going to be the collective church in fort worth texas august 8th through 9th and on august 8th we are going to do the first ever ask science mic live so an episode of the show will be coming after that event that you hear with a live audience i'm going to answer questions it could be a disaster because i won't have a chance to fact check before i give answers like i do on this version of the program but whatever it's going to be a lot of fun and i'll be excited to see whether you guys enjoy that or not whether you like it i'm told a lot of people enjoy the energy of a live program frankly my energy is different in a room of people than it is sitting alone in my office like i am now you know looking at my office window while i record the show i'm an extrovert so uh it's a little tough for me to sit here by myself and not put everyone to sleep anyway so that's coming up august 8th through 9th i've got a bunch of other events if you go to asksciencemike.com and click on events you can see what i've got coming up that's available for you to go to i do a lot of private events that you know not anybody can go to but public events are on the calendar and guess what i'd love to come to your city specifically 2015 is just about completely booked for me but i'm already booking dates in 2016. and it's going to be a big year so if you'd like me to come to your church or your college or your conference or your community in 2016 or in a couple of available slots in 2015 go to asksciencemike.com click on bookmike and jim chaffee at chafing management can work everything out and i'll get on an airplane and come see you i'd be happy to it is my favorite thing in the world so many wonderful questions coming in keep them coming you can go to ask sciencemike.com record a voice message or type a text message to me it's basically an email form that's a great way to put in an anonymous question like all the questions on this week's after dark episode were and of course ask science mike is listener supported you can join 112 other people right now in helping make the show possible since i am a full-time podcaster this is deeply appreciated it's how i pay my mortgage and my health 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again speaks to the incredibly high quality human beings that listen to this program it's really cool people but always know as science mike will be free it is free it's going to stay free that's not going to change uh pre-production for science mike is handled by hayley hyde she's a magician greg nordin the amazing canadian does our production sound design and of course our theme song on non-after dark episodes is done by jeb butterford uh this week's uh smooth jazz essential stuff was put together by my boy greg thanks for listening guys and i will see you next week [Music]