Episode 23: “African American-cula” (w/ Xavier Burgin!)

*This episode is all kinds of upside down. Michael shows up late, we don’t have a specific movie topic, and we throw a shade over Tea Time, leaving the hot goss for next week.   That’s because we’ve joined by the perfect person to shake things up, HORROR NOIRE director Xavier Burgin! In this interview we talk about his involvement with the documentary, Problem Films, and basically just rhapsodize about GET OUT for a half hour.[1]*

## **Trivia**

Nay pretends to be Michael in the introduction and then informs us that Michael's at the groomer's according to Brennan. (He's running late because of traffic.)

Topics brought up during the episode: USC School of Cinematic Arts, Sundance Fellow, HBO alumni, Ryan Murphy Hall Fest alum, Student Academy Awards, *Giants*, *Coming 2 America*, Xavier on Twitter XLNB, Xavier on Instagram XLNBStories, Xavier on Facebook Xavier Bergin (with the warning he doesn't really accept friend requests anymore), Horror Noire on Facebook, horrornoirefilm on Twitter and Facebook, *Ganja and Hess*

## **Quotes**

**Xavier:** Listening to (Nay's introduction of him) now, I gotta change that

**Nay:** Yeah? You wanna cut it? Should we re-do it?

**Mark:** Re-do your bio? (as Xavier) "Oh, don't say that. No, don't say that part. *Oh*, please don't say that part."

**Nay:** I could've read the super-long one

**Xavier:** Oh please

**Nay:** You're so accomplished. You did send me a short one and a long one

**Mark:** Oh

**Nay:** The long one was like two pages, though

**Mark:** Oh my God!

**Nay:** It was actually a C.V.

**Mark:** It would be like a filibuster version instead of a bio. We're actually not gonna do the interview. We're never getting to it

**Brennan:** It's just the audiobook of your biography

**Mark:** Exactly

**Xavier:** Can I cuss on this?

**Nay:** *Yes*. You can actually say anything

**Xavier:** Cool, cool

**Nay:** Yeah

**Mark:** We have tested the fence in every which way, and we're still here, so please. By all means.

**Nay:** Are you a fan of horror movies?

**Xavier:** Of course. I grew up watching horror, seeing it. You know, one of the first ones I remember seeing is *Candyman* (1992). *Another* one that I saw that I shouldn't have was *Event Horizon*, that *scared the shit* outta me, and I don't know how I got my hands on that shit. I dunno. All I know is I watched it and it freaked me the hell out. But I admit that on a horror level, like y'know Tananarive (Due) or Ashley Blackwell, not at that level. And honestly, even coming in to film when I found out, and I wanted to go this route, I never thought that this was somewhere I could really go, because nobody, we might get into that, nobody was really pushing that. Nobody was saying like, "You can go into this stuff, even go into the film school at USC." Love USC to death, it's all great, but it's like there were two things: Drama or Comedy, that's it. There isn't even like, really horror-based classes in there to do production and stuff, so you know, it was interesting when I went back to show (*Horror Noire*) at USC, I specifically, you know, we showed it to everybody. Of course I love seeing all these Black kids comin' out to check this bad boy

**Nay:** Hell yeah

**Xavier:** I was just like, "Yo. If you're in school right now, nobody else might tell you this, but please *do* some genre stuff. Like, straight-up. I know you're gonna do your dramas, you're gonna do your comedies, I'm not mad at that. But we need more Black folks, more POC doing genre stuff 'coz folks need to see that in general." So, I say all that to say I definitely knew horror, I enjoyed, I loved it, but I wasn't really in it the way I wish I could've been, just 'coz of the fact that nobody was really pushin' that.

**Nay:** That's interesting. Why do you think that is? That no one was pushing it

**Mark:** Yeah, did you find that the faculty, was there a feeling that the faculty looked *down* upon it?

**Xavier:** Oh. (Laughs) Okay, so I'm gonna take it back, they not gonna like this, but, I mean, one of the things at USC, I love the school to death, but USC is a microcosm of Hollywood. Hollywood is still unfortunately predominantly white, and because it's predominantly white, there's a lot of stuff that doesn't really, you know, end up being taught there, because so many of the professors are these old vanguards of older Hollywood that are coming into it. So when you notice when you go to the school, I think I maybe had like, *three*, four people of color as y'know, teachers. And then out of those four, three were Black, and that was it during my four years there. And the whole thing about it, and I'm gonna come back to the horror thing in just a second, was the fact that y'know, *because* of that there was a ceded look as to what was necessary or good to do, or what was actually something you should focus on as a student. And for the most part, horror genre stuff really wasn't pushed in that type of way. It was kind of like, you know, recommended against. Even on sci-fi/fantasy type stuff to be honest with you. If you were one of the richer kids there, you weren't goin' get that done, just because of the fact that like, you needed twenty, thirty, forty, fifty K to knock out your stuff and for the most part you might get ten K, twelve K, you know, it's just not on the same type of level with that. And then I think also the fact that they didn't see it as important, especially on the production side. So you know, when I was there, I think, *never* saw any horror-based stuff. At all. Dramas, comedies, I saw one or two sci-fi based stuff, which you know, did *great*, but you know, they was the type of folks who *literally* threw down like fifty, sixty, seventy K on a short. And it's like, that's ridiculous, but they had money to play that stuff off in comparison to the Black and POC folks that were there. So it was just one of those places where you know, I learned a lot, so glad I had it, it made me a stronger director by all means, but it just wasn't one of those places that *embraced* genre in the way that might have been necessary for more people to say, "Let me go this route."

**Nay:** I had already planned on asking how you ended up being the director of *Horror Noire*, but now I *really* would like to know how you got the, not because I'm like, "How the hell did you…?" Not like that. Bit I'm like, okay, wow. So there's this platform that didn't necessarily support this direction fully, the way that, you know, kind of other things were. So what happened in-between? How did this, what kind of path was this that you took?

**Xavier:** So, one of the things that I'll always be honest about is like, most of my work, I love Black folks, I love people of color. If you go and see any of the stuff that I've done, it's been predominantly Black folks and POC, not only in front of the camera, but *behind* it in everything that I do. So, when Shudder and Stage Three got it together to put this, they decided, "Yo. We're gonna bring in someone that's young, Black, that's pushing themselves in the industry." I ended up getting, they ended up getting a recommendation from my homie Tony Oliver, shout-out to him, and they put *them* in contact with me, so they brought me in and said, "Hey. We're doing this documentary, it's about horror." And I was like, "Eh, all right. Okay." *But*, they brought up the fact that it's dealing with the history of horror with Black folk, and I was like, "*Oh!* Now this is really piquing my interest." So because of that, I'm like, "Yo, I'm interested." So they said, "We want you to come in and pitch to see about it." And I was like, "A'ight. Sounds good." So I ended up grabbing Doctor Robin R. Means Coleman's book, *read* through that entire thing, read through everything I could find on the internet, just you know, going back and learning more about this, and literally came into the room and had like a twelve-to-fifteen page look book about how I want to set this up, the aesthetic and everything like that. How I want to go through the different eras of horror, and yeah. Sent that over to 'em and didn't hear back for a second. I was like, "Oh man, maybe I didn't get *this*, maybe I wasn't the right person for it." And then literally they hit me back and said they loved everything that I put together for this and brought me in for it

**Nay:** And when was that?

**Xavier:** That was last year, maybe end of July, something to that degree. The actual time from shooting this to now was very very quick, very very quick

**Mark:** It seems, from a consumer standpoint at least, of Shudder, they've been enormously supportive of the doc, and really trying to get it out there. Has it been a good experience as a filmmaker working with Shudder?

**Xavier:** It's been dope! One of the things I brought up, like specifically with this was that if they really wanted to, they could've gone with somebody white, *and* y'know…

**Mark:** That would've made quite an interesting PR…

**Xavier:** Yeah, interesting PR thing, but…

**Mark:** (announcer voice) "*Horror Noire*, brought to you by…"

**Nay:** No one is surprised

**Mark:** "Ken Burns's…."

**Xavier:** Like easily, but again, that's something that you see not only within the horror genre, but within film in general, we see so many Black stories being done by folks that aren't us by any means, so the fact that they actually said we want to champion someone that *is* Black to come onto this, meant a lot y'know. with bringing me into the fold and things like that. And *because* of that, I think that they were just very, very aware. Because first documentary they're doing. First original documentary. And they really said like, yo, whatever you need, we'll put it together. And then on a bigger note, it's like, "We really want you to be out there and pushing this." And I thought that was a big thing too, so it's been good with them. And it's at the point where I definitely know I wanna come back and work with them at some point

**Nay:** Awesome

**Mark:** Make it happen, Shudder

**Nay:** Yeah

**Nay:** It's *so* striking to me to hear you talk about like, obviously they could've picked a white person to direct this story, or to tell these stories of stories, and I just think about how the film just takes you through the beginnings of Black people in horror films, and then actual Black people being able to direct horror films and then you here to talk about directing a film *of* Black filmmakers and actors, and it's just such a *level up* that I didn't ever, I didn't even think about it. I would be excited to see a Black person in a horror film and eventually as I understood what movies even were, understanding like, oh, Black people actually making films, and writing screenplays and directing this and producing that. I'd never even anticipated, "Oh, and then actually there *could be* Black people who make a documentary, who write these books, who make a documentary about the Black people doing these things," and it's just-- it's so powerful, because we often are just, it seems like the control over our stories is sometimes out of our grasp even though we are the product, and I dunno, it's just super iconic to have done that, yeah

**Mark:** Yeah. I concur wholeheartedly. And one of my favourite things about the documentary is that if there was an analog for the experience of watching *Horror Noire* in the past, it was *The Celluloid Closet* in a sense, but what I loved about *Horror Noire* that it did *better*, certainly better than *Celluloid Closet* was that you really threaded the needle between what it meant to be doing an examination of how People of Color are represented in genre, and threading the needle to actually getting the chance to be *in control* of representation and the narrative. The documentary ends up being a narrative about what it means to *be* in control of presenting your own images, of your own self, for you to reflect it back to your own community, and that's not something that was part of *Celluloid Closet*. I was really unexpectedly *moved*. I knew I was going to be entertained, I knew I was going to *love* all of the information that I was gonna get from this documentary and I was gonna be fascinated, but I wasn't, I was unexpectedly moved by *that* sort of undercurrent of the documentary. And I, yeah, I haven't had a chance to say it yet, because I was like, "I'm gonna shower you with compliments on the air!" But yeah, amazing

**Xavier:** A beautiful thing about it is something that Tananarive brings up is, you know, Black life *can* be Black horror, especially many of the things we deal with in America. With white supremacy, with oppression, with state-sanctioned violence to that degree in a lot of ways when white folks look at horror, they have to choose an other, or something to be afraid of that goes all the way back to *Birth of a Nation*, it comes back to *King Kong* (1933), you know, they have to make up these ideals. Whereas for Black folks, we can look outside and see the horrors that are happening to us. One of the things I thought was, 'cause you know, one of the things I do on a regular basis is I bring up social commentary. I'm very very, I'm *very* upfront with how I feel about things that are happening in America and things to that degree. I don't bite my tongue on that, and it was interestingly enough one of the parts that still resonate with me on a personal level that was in the film, they connect what's happening in horror stuff also with the problems that are happening in America when it comes to the shooting of an unarmed Black man and woman. And, y'know, one of the things that *really* connected with me on a personal level was the fact that one of the faces that you see when they bring that part up is Philando Castile, who was, you know, taken out by the police. And I still, it infuriates me to this day, but I actually have a personal connection to that one, because when that happened, I don't know if folks remember that Issa Rae did the fundraiser for Eric Garner, that raised everything. But concurrently I was the one who did the fundraiser for Philando Castile's family that raised everything to it, and I still remember doing that specifically because you know, we raised over one-hundred eighty-thousand (dollars), but when it was happening, I had white supremacists, I had folks who were saying I was gonna steal the money, I had, you know, folks trying to threaten me to get rid of it, for folks on my phone number to do things like that with it

**Mark:** This all on Twitter?

**Xavier:** Yeah! And it was one of those things that *that* personally was something we planted in there and it really spoke to me just 'coz of the fact that when I think about what it means, you know with sometimes Black life being a part of Black horror and then seeing something that I was personally connected to in *that* way, and I'm just happy that what we did in the documentary didn't run away from the fact that so much of what happens in Black horror, what happens within this genre, what happens with *Horror Noire* is so reflective of what is happening in America right now.

**Nay:** Yeah. Absolutely. I think Castile's story-- I mean I can barely talk right now. It's one of the (exhales)... I remember being particularly upset and haunted by the interaction, his interaction with the police, his partner, the child in the back, all of that was so very horrific and I think that, I know myself as a Black person, and I've heard a lot of other Black people say this as well, you're driving in your car, a cop's behind you, probably-- I shouldn't say probably, maybe not even paying attention to you, but your heart's racing and you're like, I'm picturing, "Uch, I'm getting pulled over, and then when I get killed by this police officer, are people going to bring up-- what is *my* picture gonna be like when they bring this up, and *what* are people gonna say about me to discount what I'm saying and believe this police officer." And that's just an every day, multiple times experience for a lot of Black people. And so for the doc to bring up "Black life is Black horror", I was just like, "*Yes!*" And we know that. And the scariest parts of so many films are parts that only *we* understand, because we, we're the only people experiencing that, or most of the people experiencing that. And so to talk about the scariest part of a movie being a Black man walking through a suburban neighborhood, it's like, "No, I *completely* understand that."

**Xavier:** Even going farther, I mean one of the things I specifically remember with *Get Out,* you know, going to see it, it was, you know, the ending. And when the cop car pulls up and I remember being in the theater, and I was like, "Oh, no."

**Nay:** Right

**Xavier**: And the white folks was like, "Oh, he's saved!"

**Nay:** Right

**Xavier:** I was just like, "*Really?*" But there was just such a different perspective on what that means…

**Nay:** Absolutely

**Xavier:** For these different groups, and to *see*, Rel get out the car and save him was just cathartic in a way…

**Nay:** *Yes!*

**Xavier:** Just 'coz of the fact that I'm so-- we bring it up in the documentary as well, I'm so used to, you know, *Night of the Living Dead* (1968) you know, we get shot. Or we die first. Or all this stuff happens and you know, he goes to jail and Tananarive brought it up in the documentary, "If for the rest of my life, if I never have to see Black men on screen in, you know, orange prison suit or anything like that, I'll be fine. I've seen *enough* of that shit." So, and I know I'm jumping ahead…

**Nay:** No, that's okay

**Xavier:** The thing for me that just made me happy with *Get Out* is that I felt that I had seen a character that had made it out in a way that a lot of us *don't* in the real world, and that's why I'm *glad* (Jordan Peele) stuck with that ending, because anything else, it still would've been a great film, by all means, but I don't think it would've had the same type of emotional impact that it did for so many of us

**Nay:** Yeah

**Mark:** Well, it's interesting when you compare the endings of *Get Out* and *Night of the Living Dead* (1968). On the one hand you have Jordan Peele, who, I'm probably gonna semi-misquote him, saying, "My original ending was that the police were going to treat him in the way that we've come to expect them to treat a Black man, but I didn't have the heart to put the audience though that after everything, so I had to give them a glimmer of hope, right?" I mean that's roughly what he came away with. Whereas you have George Romero, who in 1968 is like, I guess playing to a white audience, predominantly, thinking of a white audience predominantly and is saying, "No, see? You're going to *hate* this ending, and you should hate this ending because it's entirely fucked up that this is the ending." Now, at the same time I can't speak to, y'know, how it *feels* to watch both of those as a Person of Color, but I love that that movie ends the way that it does. I'm gonna stop talking now.

**Nay:** No, I love it too

**Mark:** I feel like I've wandered into an alley and it's like, "Oh, I should-- I'm just gonna go to bed."

**Nay:** No, no.

**Xavier:** Bringing that up, I think is like, I understand feeling where it's like, being realistic and be honest with what the world presents, and I think that's necessary in many films, but by all means, I think there is something poignant to say like, these white folks that were in *Night of the Living Dead* going out and killing the, you know, the zombies, and you know, we bring up in (*Horror Noire*) that they were very reminiscent of those mobs that were running around in the deep south. You know, I'm from Alabama, and seeing (Ben) getting taken out at the end is again, reminiscent of the lynchings and things that we dealt with, that you know, our parents and our grandparents dealt with. And so, I understand the necessity of doing something realistic, doing something honest. But at the same time, on the flipside when you've seen it enough times, there's also something truly impactful, powerful when you see the type of, I don't know, restorative justice in a way that again, we don't get to see on a regular basis in the real world, because when I think about the overall landscape of America, it's like-- again, I'm goin' on a tangent…

**Mark:** Please do

**Xavier:** But, when you think about American history, a lot of people are like, "Oh, American history, we're always going up up up, progressing progressing progressing," and that's not true. If anything, when I look at American history, I see it as a downward spiral of decadence that every once in awhile we see an uptick in progress that comes from Black folk, POC, gay folks, the type of folks who *do* want to see much of the world become better, especially because we want something more for the folks that we're gonna be leaving this to, so you think about it that way, you understand how America in more ways than one has been a nation that has been undeniably cruel to it's most vulnerable people. And it's only been in those every once in awhile shimmering pieces of hope that's made some folks hope that *maybe* this nation can *be* better than the sum of its parts. And for me, that's in a lot of ways, *Get Out* with just that little shimmering thing that shows me there's another way of doing this type of film, another way of giving, you know, Black folks, a type of hope. And I appreciate it, 'coz one thing that Jordan (Peele).brought up in the doc was how he was like, "I'm trying to make it for everybody. But at the same time, if Black folks love it, I've done something right." And then it goes from there. And I think that was very very important and I'm happy that he actually really pushed, and made sure to look at that, because y'know, it's just one of those things where we needed some, that type of hope, especially in that area in that time that *Get Out* was coming out from the transition from Obama to Trump. Specifically, you know, we bring it up in the doc, where I was like, "Oh, Obama's elected! And man, what if we *are* post-racial?" And we found out that's a goddamn lie.

**Nay:** Right! Right

**Xavier:** That was never true during his time, regardless, but, you have folks bring that up and then Trump lets us know *very clearly*, "*No*, you motherfuckers. You *are wrong!*"

**Nay:** Yes! Right. You know, I had planned on asking you, "Oh, in twenty years, you know, what the political climate was like when the doc aired," and I think you've already spoken a lot to that, which just speaks to how important of a moment it is for all of us to be able to view this so easily. Um, yeah. I think you have spoken already to what…

**Mark:** (as Nay) "I had a question but you answered it."

**Nay:** Yeah, I had a question but you answered it

**Nay:** You know, *Get Out*… that movie will always just astound me, because it's like, you have horror, right? You have things that are scary, like someone being drugged, someone not having access to etcetera, someone trying to auction you off for your organs or for whatever else. But then it's like there's this whole other layer of scary for folks who know what is scary, and so for Black folks watching *Get Out*, you're like, "Oh, this moment is actually really scary too. And this and this and this." It's just all these levels. "Oh that glance from that person, I know what that feels like, that's scary." It's just so genius. I dunno

**Xavier:** I think what's beautiful about it, and you know, it reminds me of the same that happened with *Night of the Living Dead* is there can be *good* films. There can be *amazing* films. But there's also something about an amazing film, again coming out at the right time when it was necessary, that kind of solidifies its status as viscerally important to what's happening in that time that was huge for *Night of the Living Dead*, because of the racial strife that was happening at that moment. You know, MLK being assassinated, that was big to there in 1968, to see a Black man onscreen *leading* and also just knockin' the fuck outta white people, and then on the flip side…

**Michael:** Love it!

**Nay:** Hi, Michael! Michael's here!

**Michael:** Hi, team.

**Mark:** (as Michael) "Did someone say 'Knocking the fuck out of white people'?"

**Michael:** Haaaaaay

**Nay:** You know what's so wild is that…

**Michael:** (to Xavier) I loved your film by the way, hi!

**Xavier:** Thank you!

**Michael:** I loved loved loved! The last thing I did before I came here was show three people Shudder. Literally went to Shudder dot com and said, "Watch this movie." So…

**Nay:** Hell yeah

**Michael:** Okay, that's it from me

**Nay:** I was gonna talk about how before I saw *Get Out*, I had had this interaction at my workplace where there was a lot going on, and I was being asked about it by the CEO and I was just like, "You know what? Imma, I'm just gonna mind my business and do my job." And he was like, (as the CEO, who sounds like a white man) "I really like that. You know, I really like that. Just mind your business and do your job." (normal voice) And then I watched *Get Out* a few months later, y'all, and he, that Black man who had been already hoodwinked and was in it and was just like, "I'm just gonna mind my business and do my job," and I was like, "FUCK!!! They got me! They got me." It was so striking to me that I had said that *exact* *same thing* in an effort to just fall under the radar and just get my paycheck, and I was like, "How did, how did Jordan, how did this happen? How did he do this?"

**Mark:** It feels very rare nowadays that a *mass* hit movie ends up being viewed, like a prism, from very different angles for white audiences and Black audiences. Black audiences are watching it from a very specific vantage point. And then you had-- I remember hearing Jordan Peele talking and saying, "I'm having a lot of white people come up to me and be like, 'I thought like, what a great comedy.'" And he was like...

**Nay:** Oh, God. Time to whoop some more ass, honestly

**Michael:** Yeah

**Mark:** He was like, (angrily) "*It's not a comedy!!!*"

**Michael:** (as Jordan Peele) "Okay, I'll do a sequel."

**Mark:** But that's the strange thing, is I could see like, oh wow, I think if you're sort of like, have a low-empathy quotient, you could watch Allison what's-her-name, uh, Marnie. She's always gonna be Marnie to me

**Michael:** Allison Williams

**Mark:** She'll always be Marnie to me

**Michael:** Oh, she'll always be that bitch sitting on that bed eating cereal out of a cup to me

**Mark:** Okay, thank you!

**Nay:** Aw, Michael! I'm so glad you're here!

**Mark:** You could watch, you know, to that fuckin' *Dirty Dancing* tape my mother played in the station wagon a thousand and one times, like eating cereal and milk separately and just find it funny, or you could be like, "No, there's so much truth in the exaggeration."

**Nay:** *Yeah*

**Mark:** Yeah, there's-- we have so many problems. We have so many problems, you guys! So that was an especially fascinating thing as a horror fan to read interviews with Jordan Peele and being like, "Really? Really? People are telling him-- oh God, that's really depressing. That's incredibly depressing that some audiences would *only* extrapolate that from it," and that's…

**Michael:** Have him tell the director, oof

**Xavier:** Yeah, that's a lot

**Nay:** Privilege

**Xavier:** *That's a lot!*

**Nay:** Like, (as a white person) "That was fucking hilarious! Oh my God!"

**Michael:** "Girl, hilar."

**Mark:** Ahh, you keep me young

**Michael:** I'll never forget seeing that movie in the Arclight Dome opening weekend and the audience going fucking nuts when he starts taking people out

**Mark:** Yup

**Nay:** Oh hell yeah

**Michael:** The sense of community that was going on in that moment was pretty rad. It was *loud* in there, and it was great. And getting chills and like people literally cheering. I don't think I've heard that in a horror movie in a really long time, people screaming out loud *at* the protagonist. And not, y'know screaming, "Kill 'em!" at the antagonist, it was at the protagonist

**Nay:** Right

**Michael:** So I dunno, it was just like super-special to be *even* there, witnessing that. It was *amazing*. Audience was packed, though

**Xavier:** You know, just to add onto that,, what I think is great is when we interviewed Jordan for the documentary, what I really appreciated is that I kind of subtly noticed that even for Jordan *now*, he's still kind of getting used to the fact that he's done something so culturally significant. Like he's at that point where he's like, "Oh I really did make *Get Out*."

**Michael:** He's wrapping his head around his own work?

**Xavier:** Right. And I think that's huge. I mean, for me it's just interesting to see someone in that stasis period where you're realizing that you made something that was so  important to the lexicon of American history. Not just cinema, but American history, and what that means now, and what *not only* being that person, but also the responsibility, the weight or anything else that, it carries on when folks begin to look at your next thing.

**Nay:** Yeah. How *do* you begin to wrap your mind around like, "You did that."

**Michael:** Yeah. You didn't even just make a movie, you created almost a moment in time that's gonna be trapped forever. Like you said, it's significant in so many ways, whether it's artistically, film-wise, culturally, like in every way imaginable. It has to be had to be like as a filmmaker, "Holy shit. Wh-what?"

**Mark:** I get the feeling though that he's-- I mean, it's not his first time at the rodeo

**Michael:** True

**Mark:** I mean, after *Key & Peele*...

**Michael:** Right

**Nay:** True

**Mark:** I feel-- first of all, *Key & Peele* just on its own is already like kind of just like a little jewel, not little, like a several seasons large jewel. And then to top that with, you know, sort of a cultural landmark of pop culture, pop horror. I mean, I feel like he's just going to keep surprising people, I don't know. I don't see him as the type of person that, he seems too smart to rest on laurels or go back to an identical well. He's gonna find I dunno

**Michael:** The thing with Jordan Peele is, he always has something to say...

**Mark:** Yeah

**Michael:** Regardless of genre or tone or anything. His brain just works that way if you ask me, and everything he's done, there's always been a POV. And whether it's gonna be as big or as significant as *Get Out*, probably not, because that's hard to do, and once you start going to do that, you usually fail, right? When you're *trying* to say something big… yeah

**Xavier:** I just hope he doesn't get like Shyamalan or whatever

**Mark:** Oh my God. Oh, *knock wood*, oh my God!

**Michael:** "Oh, that movie you just made was a ninety-minute self-suck, M. Night!"

**Nay:** I mean, that sounds fine though

**Michael:** I mean, I could

**Mark:** You've seen the *Gremlins 2* sketch

**Mark:** (to Xavier) Two questions for you. One, what I loved about the doc was I was, when it was over, I was like, (disappointed) "Oh, it's over. Okay." And I was wondering was there any segment or any section of the doc that you found yourself that you had to cut or that you wish you could have included or… so i was wondering, was there anything from the doc that you *had* wanted to include but did not, or I dunno

**Xavier:** Of course. We're doing something so long, it's going from the 1890s all the way to the present day, so there's a lot of stuff to unpack and deal with. One of the pieces or parts that really stood out to me, that I even go back and think about, like to this point I wish I could throw some more in there, but you gotta keep it at a nice lil' eighty-three minute pace, is specifically William Marshall the director of *Blacula*. I'm sorry, my bad, it's William Crane. Both of them have "William" and "William". But specifically, what was big is when William (Crane) sat down to talk about *Blacula*, and to make something that was so *big* at that point and brought in so much money for the folks. And he was a Black director making this at twenty-three years old, in the early Seventies. And even though he's the director, he had to deal with so many-- he brought up more outside of it, but dealing with *so much* of the pushback from everyone that…

**Mark:** He talked about having an all-white crew

**Xavier:** Yeah, that's one of the things. Not only did he have an all-white crew, but so many of the folks behind the scenes didn't want him on it *and* were constantly undermining what he was trying to do. And what really-- it hurt a little bit, but also something that I always go back to, when you look up his credits and stuff like that, like he did *Blacula* which is amazing, but there's not much there, and it's not because he wasn't talented by all means, but you would think making something as huge as *Blacula* during that time would just skyrocket you. But it didn't. At all. And it kind of just reminded me how, the work that he did at that point and the career that he should have had, but didn't was like one piece of the groundwork to allow Black filmmakers *now* to be able to have the opportunities that we're *still* fighting for, but at least we're getting them on a bigger basis than he was back in the Seventies. And that's, that specifically and what he talked about, and listening to him was just a huge thing for me, 'coz you know, he still wants to come back and do something else with *Blacula*, he still *wants* to make more stuff, and I dunno. For me, it's just a little infuriating to know this man made something that was culturally iconic and *huge* for that time and made that studio so much money, but it damn near did nothing for his career. So. Couldn't add *all* that extra stuff in the documentary, but it's something that I always come back to, and I always keep in the back of my head now. Because *without* him, there wouldn't be even *me* making a doc like this in the first place

**Mark:** Right

**Nay:** Wow. And the name they almost had for *Blacula.* Wasn't it like, "Brown's in Town" or "Doctor Brown's…"

**Xavier:** "Doctor Brown's in Town" or something like that!

**Michael:** "Count Brown"?

**Xavier:** "Count Brown's in Town" and it just sounded like poop

**Michael:** It was a scat film?

**Nay:** People are so scared to say, "Black," though.

**Michael:** People are!

**Nay:** I can't even imagine-- what year did *Blacula* come out?

**Mark:** Seventy-three?

**Xavier:** I think 1970… two 1972. Yeah, 1972

**Nay:** People-- you can tell who has a lot of thoughts on the word and who doesn't, 'coz you'll see people starting to mouth it, before they'll be like, "Bl…."

**Mark:** Well, no, they whisper

**Nay:** (whispers) "Black." (normal voice) That's not a curse word, you can say that. You can say it. *Blacula*. That's the only name that movie could have

**Mark:** Nay, it's (whispers) "*Blacula*"

**Nay:** It's "African-American-cula". That is… twenty-three years old? God, I wasn't doing shit at twenty-three. What were you doing? Seriously?

**Michael:** What was I doing? I think I was working at Enterprise Rent-a-car

**Mark:** I don't remember what I had for lunch

**Michael:** I had a veggie burger, it was good

**Mark:** I also wanted to ask you, so when the, forgive me for bringing it up, I have a point, when the *Roseanne* reboot came out last year…

**Michael:** Everyone's like, "Where's it going?"

**Xavier:** I know! Where we goin' with this?

**Mark:** No no no no. I have a point. I have a point! I usually have a point. Roxanne Gay ended up writing, because she was a huge fan of the original series, and she ended up writing a huge piece in March of last year that was about her watching the first two episodes (of the reboot) and being like, "I'm good! I've had it!" And she wrote, quote, "Sometimes I consume problematic pop culture knowing I shouldn't, knowing how harmful that pop culture can be. I still believe there is room for that, for having principles and enjoying things that challenge those principles." And she goes on to say that we still need to challenge pop culture to get better pop culture of course, but it's still okay if you're watching with the right hat, so to speak, to consume problematic pop culture. And so, as a queer viewer, I certainly have like, "problem films" that I adore, that just basically would want to stomp on my throat as a queer person…

**Michael:** Yeah, we've talked about a lot of them on here

**Mark:** Yeah! And so, I'm curious. I'm always fascinated to know what "problem films" people love, or whether they're guilty pleasures or things that are like, "I know this movie has so many issues, but I *love* this movie!" And so I'm just curious to know what you find fascinating or, you know…

**Xavier:** Oh man, I've really gotta think about that. Well, okay, yeah. A homie that went on the tirade against Black folks and Jews and made a comeback…

**Nay:** Oh, no

**Brennan:** Mel Gibson?

**Xavier:** Mel Gibson! And what's the film where he was like, "America first!" in the 1770s, what was his…?

**Mark:** *Braveheart*

**Michael:** *The Patriot*?

**Mark:** *Braveheart*. Wait, no, *The Patriot*. Was it *The Patriot*? With Heath Ledger?

**Nay:** *Passion of the Christ*, I think. No, I'm joking

**Xavier:** There's a lot of them!

**Mark:** Every Mel Gibson movie?

**Michael:** I'm thinking *Apocalypto*?

**Xavier:** It's just, he's a Revolutionary soldier…

**Mark:** Oh yeah, it's *The Patriot*

**Xavier:** It's *The Patriot*

**Michael:** With Heath Ledger as his kid, right?

**Xavier:** Yeah. So. I love that film. I grew up on that film, watching it a lot

**Michael:** It's a good movie!

**Xavier:** It's a good movie. And a lot of times, because of what I talk about or what I think about, it's like, "Man. Do I even wanna go back and watch it, knowing the type of motherfucker this dude is?" And it's one of those things where I still enjoy it, but I have a hard time sometimes, because specifically folks like to say, "You can separate the art from the artist," and I think that's bullshit. I think that's not true. If you consume an art, then you are inevitably helping that artist in some way, and sometimes it's maybe more honest for you to say like, "I am! And that's a problem, and I need to hit it and face it head-on," versus trying to make an excuse as to…

**Michael:** Like justify it or quantify it

**Xavier:** Right. Because when you do-- 'coz it's still problematic if you ingest it, but at least if you're willing to face it head-on, you can ask yourself like, "Well, what are the things I do if I'm gonna keep ingesting this thing, what are things I can do to at least deal with this or bring more thought and stuff to it." But it's a hard thing to deal with. But that for me is one that always picks up, because there are Mel Gibson films that Iike, but I also understand like, for me, I can't rock wit' homeboy like that

**Mark:** Right, but I mean, you can appreciate the fact that he's in a certain way, and listen, I'm not renting his movies on a weekly basis or anything, but having *seen* a number of them…

**Michael:** You're designing an app for him

**Mark:** It's called, "Sugartits" and if you click on it, he just shows up at your house within thirty minutes and just abused you to your face

**Michael:** In a hot tub

**Mark:** Yeah, in a hot tub. Um, no. But I kind of feel like I get where you're coming from, I get why you would watch some of them and be like, "Okay, there's some great filmmaking here and also Mel Gibson's gross!" Like he's both, right? I dunno. I guess, I mean…

**Michael:** It's a really interesting conversation. It is!

**Mark:** But it's such a difficult conversation because at the same time, I can go like, *Rosemary's Baby* comes on TCM, I'm watching it, because it's a perfect movie…

**Michael:** And it also…

**Mark:** But do I want Roman Polanski to get to work any more? No! I don't! Sit down! You're done!

**Michael:** That's a really good example because that movie also has an amazing message

**Mark:** Well, yeah

**Michael:** It tackles an amazing subject

**Mark:** I dunno

**Michael:** It's tough

**Mark:** It's so, it's so sketchy. It's such a sketchy conversation

**Xavier**: I think that the greatest example, taking it back, *is* you know, 1915, *Birth of a Nation*. And, the thing that happens, especially in film schools, where they wanna show it, and they wanna talk about the, "technical skills"...

**Mark:** They showed it in mine

**Xavier:** They showed it at USC, too! And you know, all the technical skills and how important it is for all that stuff like that. And for me, I remember when it started I was like, "I gotta walk out. I don't wanna see this shit again."

**Nay:** Hell yeah

**Xavier:** "I don't need to see it a second time!" But my bigger problem was that a lot of times when *Birth of a Nation* is shown, they *only* talk about the technical parts. So, they completely erase all of the problematic ideas that it brought into the American lexicon. And it's like, how can you, completely erasing, ignore that stuff, but only talk about the technical side and what matters to it, that's like completely ignoring a total side of a person, that's like I'm walking up to you and only talking to one side of you. It doesn't make any sense. And y'know, that's a great example where, for example, coming back to film school, if I was ever able to go back and teach and someone says, "*You have to show that in your class!*" I'm like, "Fuck! Fine!" And for me, it can't just be me talking about the technical stuff, it has-- for me to bring up all of the societal ills that that that film brought on, from blackface from minstrelsy, like you know, showing Black men lusting, from being shown in the White House to uplifting the Ku Klux Klan. All of that stuff *needs* to be shown in connection with it, in the same way that like, y'know, for *The Patriot*. Talk about the inaccuracies within the film. Talk about what Mel Gibson's done. Give it…

**Michael:** The technical aspects are framed around the problems, so some of those shots were chosen because of the problem they wanted to get across. In that sense you can't ignore that either, you know what I mean? Does it make sense what I'm saying?

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** You're using the problematic aspect of your film to *frame* around it so they go hand-in-hand

**Mark:** So is that the solution towards you know, approaching-- the word "problem film" doesn't even apply to *Birth of a Nation*, it's just, it doesn't qualify. But to integrate the history and sort of the effect and the deleterious effect of the politics of that film *with* the sort of technical appreciation in order to have a dialogue about it that doesn't feel inauthentic or doesn't feel fraudulent, I mean?

**Xavier:** I think that's what needs to happen on a regular basis…

**Michael:** Yes

**Mark:** It makes sense to me, what I'm hearing

**Xavier:** If you believe in the idea, because I truly believe that you can't separate the art from the artist, so if you subscribe to something like that, then that means you need to hit it face on. So if you're gonna *talk* about what you consider the positive aspects, it is always necessary to bring up the negative aspects as well, and tie them together because you can't unlink 'em. You can't unlink Roman Polanski from *Rosemary's Baby*, it's not possible to do that. And if someone is gonna show it or someone's gonna teach it, and they completely *ignore* the person behind it, then you're erasing a central part of what that film is, and why it came to be, and you're, especially for students, you're robbing them of what it means to be an artist and ingest yourself into your film, because I think every film has a piece of the person that wrote and directed it

**Michael:** One hundred percent

**Nay:** Yeah

**Mark:** Of course

**Nay:** I mean, to only bring up the technical aspect of *Birth of a Nation* or any other problematic film *reeks* of so much privilege because for anyone else who occupies more than one social identity, the political is personal. I can't not talk about blackface when I watch this movie. I can't even imagine trying to separate those things out and I refuse to do it

**Michael:** Well, like Joelle Monique said when she was here, "Films are politics". You can't really separate the two any more

**Xavier:** Wait, there's no such thing as a film that doesn't have politics

**Michael:** Right

**Xavier:** Like, one hundred percent, anyone that thinks that *just doesn't actually have to deal* with the politics in their face because they're usually seen as the default. So yeah, every single film, every single film has a political understanding, it's just the only problem is, as a filmmaker, when you think you're so neutral that you completely ignore it so that you no longer have control over politically what it is saying. Or, you don't know and you make it completely political without even realizing it

**Michael:** Or you don't care

**Nay:** Right

**Mark:** Which is also something you see sometimes

**Nay:** I mean, I don't think the answer is to not show the film, right? But you know what-- so I've never been one who thinks that something should be censored, or that something should be banned and that no one should be able to see it. I have never felt that way until I watched *Thirteen Reasons Why*, and I was like, "You know what? I don't think anyone needs to see this." And I have never felt that way about *anything*, and I truly felt...

**Mark:** Netflix is canceled!

**Michael:** You're not the first person ive heard say that

**Nay:** I was like, "You know what? This is *awful*."

**Mark:** Is it, what is it about? I only saw a chunk of episode seven and I was like, "Not for me."

**Xavier:** Well, it's you know, specifically about suicide…

**Mark:** Right

**Michael:** Teen suicide, yeah

**Xavier:** And one of the things they bring up in a lot of complaints is that it romanticizes glorifies suicide

**Nay:** Absolutely

**Xavier:** One of the things they talk about is when films and TV usually do things about suicide, it actually ups the rate of kids...

**Nay:** Yes it does

**Xavier:** So then one of the problems with it is because sometimes, or actually a lot of times, the filmmakers would choose to make it more cinematic and because of that they would ignore some of the implications and problems that would bring into it. Something I vividly remember is how you know, they would have the afterwards, they would do this thing, I done forgot what it's called, but afterwards they would have a sit-down with the creators and stuff and whoever was the consultant for the series, and you would literally hear this woman be like, she would say, "Hey, I thought this was a bad idea." And then they were like, "We're gonna do it anyway!"

**Michael:** Like a little town hall, almost, right? With an open discussion about it?

**Xavier:** Yeah, no, they did. . And it was just one of those things where I was like, "What was even the point of bringing her on if you were going to ignore her stuff?"

**Nay:** Right

**Xavier:** And where it really stuck out for me is the ending with the second season where you have the whole active terrorist shooter at the end of it...

**Michael:** Jesus Christ!

**Mark:** The second season is bad

**Nay:** Trash

**Xavier:** What really hit me, because you know, the thing I have a problem with, and you know, I'll be very honest, active shooters, you know, the whole idea that "If we just stop bullying them, they'll stop shooting kids!" And it's like, that's not fucking true! That's just not true

**Mark:** (disbelief) *That's* the takeaway?

**Xavier:** Literally, one of the things…

**Michael:** That's a takeaway on the show? Essentially?

**Nay:** Yeah

**Xavier:** They really push the idea-- one of the things that happens on the show is that they sodomize him with a broomstick in the bathroom...

**Nay:** Yeah, they *show it*

**Xavier:** Because that happens, it pushes him to shoot everybody

**Nay:** Yeah

**Xavier:** And it's just like, "*What?*" And then to make it worse…

**Mark:** What high school is this happening at???

**Nay:** It's also brutal

**Mark:** Jesus!

**Nay:** Like it's *horrible* to watch. And I watch *everything*, y'know what I mean? Like, whew!

**Xavier:** It wasn't necessary

**Michael:** Triggered me

**Xavier:** The choice they made with that one, it wasn't necessary. There is a way to show traumatic stuff with getting across what it means. It's one of the things I always, and let me come back to this for one second, like, trauma porn in films.

**Mark:** (sotto voce) Oh, I love that term!

**Xavier:** Specifically, they think that the way to show for Black folks a lot of the times, white filmmakers think, "What's the best way to make us empathize with a character, a Black character?"

**Mark:** Slavery!

**Xavier:** And a lot of times filmmakers are like, slavery or getting lynched or getting beaten or getting shot. All of these type of things…

**Michael:** Getting oppressed in one way or another?

**Xavier:** Yeah. And the whole thing about it is for me as a Black person, there is nothing you can show me onscreen that I can't go on the internet and see on my own.

**Michael:** And see that as real and true

**Xavier:** Right

**Nay:** Yeah

**Xavier:** And so it becomes a question of, "Who are you actually *making* this for?" And in this, with *Thirteen Reasons Why* for me, I don't think they were making it to actually bring awareness as it was to sensationalize and make for folks to watch…

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Xavier:** And I'm sure they'd be against it, but I think that's another one, like the film *Detroit* that came out…

**Mark:** Oh yeah

**Xavier:** And the whole thing for me is that I despise it, because for me I felt that it was a film that was being made for a white liberal audience to feel bad for Black folks, and, "Oh, it's so terrible!" And, "Oh, we're doin' our part!" And you go and you drink a cup of tea and you never talk about it again. And that, to me, is a problem because that's just patting yourself on the back and not creating empathy

**Michael:** I mean, it's, again it's a two-hour yank on yourself. It is! I mean, I never saw that movie, but the way you just described it, I felt that in the thirty-second spots. I was like, "This is Megan Ellison tooting her own horn for making this movie."

**Mark:** I saw it. I went to see it, and um…

**Xavier:** I'm still mad that I saw it. I'm still furious about it

**Mark:** Well, it's one of those things where I mean, Kathryn Bigelow has made some brilliant movies, and watching it, one of the things that was so frustrating about the movie was that it *had* all her hallmarks in that she-- it was unrelenting and it was unflinching and it was *desperately* painful to watch, but the entire time you're watching it, you're going like, "Why? Why are we having to watch this part of this event? Why aren't we watching a different-- around it, something, why do we have to indulge in this particular moment?" And that's the thing, she's-- I think it's a road to hell kind of situation where like clearly the intentions are, the heart is in the right place, and yet the effect overall, certainly to I dunno, to a lot of audiences is going to be like, "Oh God, please…"

**Xavier:** A great point that you bring up, it's like being unflinching and undaunting and showing exactly how it is, and I'm not against a filmmaker doing that, and I applaud filmmakers for try-- for going to that place. But then it becomes a question of, y'know, who are you making that unflinching mess for and why?

**Michael:** Yeah, and why?

**Xavier:** Because again, as a Black person watching that, you're never gonna be able to show me a film where I see a Black person get shot, killed, lynched and that's going to have some profound effect on me, because *I* see that, I *know* that, I've learned about that, that's something that can happen to me, that is doing nothing for me, so for me, ironically it becomes where they're thinking they're doing this to *add* empathy, it feels like a *lack* of humanity or empathy towards *the* Black and Brown bodies that are on the screen

**Mark:** Do you think that there's been any films specifically about stories involving or focusing on People of Color that have been made by white filmmakers that you actually respect? Like one that I think of, and it probably falls under a "problem film" category, like obviously so *Detroit* is, "Oh, we know what end of the spectrum that is." It's interesting that you bring it up. It makes me go, "Oh.". That makes me want to know, like, *Beloved*, for example, is like, what do you think-- because that was a movie that I was like, "Oh. I wanna know what Miss Due thinks about that movie, too."

**Xavier:** I'll give you one. I think, if I'm not right, *Coming to America* was, that was a white filmmaker I believe.

**Mark:** John Landis?

**Michael:** Was it Landis? I think it was, yeah

**Xavier:** That one, I still love the film, I do love it, I do love it. And I feel like there was love done there, and it was something that I can come back to and watch. So the big thing, I bring that up because I don't think, I'm not, what I'm not ever asking for is for non-Black filmmakers to never make stuff with not their culture or anything like that. It's more of a case of I just want you to have the same empathy that you see when you look at someone like you, have that same empathy and understanding of individuals that don't look like yourself and take out the time to go talk to somebody that's like that. Or take out the time to say like, "Hey. Can I get your thoughts on this?" Or better yet, *bring* someone in like that to be your partner as a producer or writer…

**Michael:** A big part of the process

**Xavier:** And a big thing with it, too, is when you ask that person to come in, give them the space where they feel like they could *actually* say something to you *if* you're-- 'coz it helps nothing if you have a Black or a Brown face or a gay face there if they're *scared* that if they actually call you out on something they'll just get thrown out the room

**Michael:** Yeah, asking someone to contribute is much different than letting them

**Xavier:** Right

**Michael:** You know, I've been in writers rooms before where I'm turned to...

**Nay:** (as a straight person) "Is that what a gay person would say?"

**Michael:** Yeah, "Was that gay joke too bad?" It's like, "If you're asking me, it probably is, Ellie." And B, really? Come on. Don't look for me just to write the gay joke this week. I'm more than that. But also, ask that question before-- there's a different way to do it, there's a way to go, "We brought you here because we have a gay character and we wanna make sure we're true to this gay character." Don't just look to me and go, "Is that joke homophobic?" 'Coz you're not helping anybody. Especially me.

**Nay:** Yeah. Let me *write* the fuckin' joke. How about that?

**Michael:** Yeah. But there is a much different aspect of asking for help and letting someone help you in a way where, like you said, they can push back a little bit. Or say, "No, you're actually doing this incorrectly, here's what you could do better." Everyone's just gotta learn and be open to learning. Really, at the end of the day

**Xavier:** Yeah, like folks are gonna make mistakes. I'm not mad at people for making mistakes. But what I want is if you're gonna make the mistake, learn from it and then once you've learned from it, try your best not to fall into the same thing. I think the biggest problem I see with individuals, any individuals within the industry or outside of it, is it's, you're not-- when folks come to y'know, get on your head, it's never the first mistake. It's usually like you've done a couple of them and you just haven't learned, and at that point folks are like, "We're fed up."

**Nay:** Speaking of bringing in other folks, before we started recording you had mentioned just how much help and support, I mean beyond help and support, like how influential a lot of other people were in bringing *Horror Noire* to fruition

**Xavier:** So that's something I need to say upfront. I'm so blessed to be the director of this amazing documentary. But I in no-- if someone says, "Oh, Xavier, I *love your vision*!" It's like, "No. This was *our* vision." And that's not me tryin' to be humble, it literally was *our vision*. It was a case of everyone put in an equal and sometimes more amount of time than even me in some ways to get it where it is. So I have to give love to Tananarive Due. I have to give *special* love to Ashley Blackwell and Daniel Burrows, the writers and producers on this, you know, Kelly and Phil, who were the producers that were just dating this before I even came on to this bad boy. And I think the reason why I wanted to make sure I said that is because I think it's important to give credit where credit is due, and I also don't want to erase the individuals who made sure that this thing was strong, because at the end of the day, *Horror Noire* could've been made without me. Now I brought my perspective to it. But, at the end of the day, when I talk about where it started and first and foremost who makes it great, I look specifically at the Black women that were a part of this, and especially Ashley and Doctor Robin R. Means Coleman, *who wrote the book* *that made this possible* in the first place, and I just had to say that

**Michael:** I think it's cool you say that, and I wanted to bring that up, 'coz I was at the premiere, and Nay was at the premiere, and that was something you said in front of everybody and I thought that was really cool and that made me realize that's why the film is special. It's not just the content, it's everything about it, and it's because of that. It's because of you sharing the situation, the whole project with your team, and your team doing the same with you, and to me that's why it's special: Everyone had a common goal, you know what I mean? It was just very clear listening to the panel that everyone loved being a part of it, and not one person was fully "in charge", per se, and that's why it's great, you know what I mean? 'Coz you could see the love and passion on film

**Xavier:** I mean, even there at the premiere…

**Michael:** So great, so fun

**Xavier:** Yeah, I was loving it. I was like, "Oh my God, I'm right beside Tony Todd, this is amazing!"

**Nay:** *Oh my God!* I was dying

**Xavier:** And at the same time, I was thinking to myself, "I'm gonna take a step back, I'm not gonna be tryin' to answer a whole bunch of questions. I'm gonna concede this to all of the folks that are far more important to me in the gestation and the making of that."

**Michael:** You're pretty important

**Xavier:** I get that. It was one of those cases where I just wasn't trying to force myself to be, "Hey! Me me me me me!"

**Michael:** Were you up there like, "Holy shit!" You had to have been, right?

**Xavier:** It's kind of crazy…

**Michael:** From what I remember, sitting on both sides of you was like the history of Black film...

**Xavier:** Yeah

**Nay:** (sotto voce) Fucking crazy

**Michael:** That your documentary wouldn't have been made without everything that they contributed before you? And *God*, what were you thinking?

**Xavier:** It was crazy to look to the side and you know, Tony Todd's right there, and Ken Foree's right there, and Rachel True's right there…

**Michael:** She's hilarious by the way

**Xavier:** And Keith David's right there, and y'know, Tony pats me on the back like, "Good job," and I'm like, "Oh shit!" That's crazy!

**Nay:** I can't. If Tony Todd patted me on the back, I wouldn't even-- what was the moderator's name?

**Michael:** She was great too

**Xavier:** Lisa…

**Nay:** If you say "Candyman" one more fuckin' time, I'm leaving. I believe in *nothing*, and I still can't quite say "Candyman" five times. I just can't

**Mark:** We're gonna do it the next time we watch a movie at my house

**Nay:** I will kick your fucking ass

**Mark:** We're gonna drag you to the bathroom, we're gonna do this

**Nay:** Yeah. You have fun with that.

**Mark:** Your humility is-- and being so appreciative of the team around you that helped enable you to bring this thing to life really says a lot about you as a person and as an artist, and having worked with a couple of directors who do *not*, do *not* come from that place, it is wildly refreshing and this is my long-winded way of saying, "Never change." Because it really is amazing sometimes how certain people in the industry forget it truly does take a village…

**Michael:** It really does

**Mark:** I know it's a cliche, but it also comes back to what you were saying before, about *Detroit*, about other films, it really is about the intention that a director or the group around the film have in terms of, well, what are they trying to say with this thing? And you know, the purpose and the goodness of what you guys are putting across by trying to shed light on a piece of history that for some reason has *not* gotten the due it deserves. It is, you know, probably the reason why it sounds like it's been such a wildly positive, wonderful enriching experience for both the makers and the viewers

**Xavier:** Yeah, no, it was great. I mean honestly, it's crazy to think about how because of how smooth-- it's that, by far, one of the smoothest working relationships and productions that I've ever been on. Getting through this and doing everything was, just on a production base, shooting everything was less hazardous than some of the shit I dealt with when I was shooting the short films and stuff back at USC. Because one of the beautiful things they told me specific, like, "You have your choice in who you wanna bring in as your crew, specifically your entire cinematography team and everyone that's gonna be working with you." And I was like, "Okay, dope. Appreciate that. Thank you." Immediately what I did-- 'coz you know, they said you can go talk to, try to get biggity bees(?). I was like, "No, I want my homie Mario Rodriguez to be my cinematographer because he's been on everything that I've been on." And then when we sat down with this, I was like, "Mario, when you bring in a team for this one, I wanna make sure that the majority of the crew we have are Black and Brown folks around on this since this is a film about that in the first place." So you know, if you go on my Instagram, you'll see the team, the team *is* mostly Black and Brown folks behind it, which you know, is kinda rare. And even with that, like me saying, "I need that," that's just something that I've been doing regardless in all of my work anyway, just because of the fact that-- and this is getting a little bit on a tangent, but you know folks always bring up the thing about, "If you bring more diversity," and things like that to films, "Won't the quality go down?" or something to that degree. That's been something I've been hit with, that was a question I was hit with during the premiere we had at USC.

**Mark:** That really says everything about what they think about diversity

**Michael:** It's pretty been proven that diverse rooms and diverse crews make better stuff

**Mark:** Yeah

**Xavier:** Yeah. And one of the things that I specifically-- when that question came up and I said, like, y'know, "Look at the work that I've done. I've been on HBO, we got Emmy-nominated, we went to the Student Academy Awards. We've been to Sundance with the stuff that I've been putting together, and this is with all of my stuff, and all of my stuff has been majority Black and Brown people. So for me, it's just the default to bring in the type of folks that I think make things better just because of the fact that *I've* seen the quality come out because of it." So, the idea of that question even being a thing? To me, is ridiculous because it's-- from my viewpoint I've always done that and it's always netted me results.

**Nay:** Well it sounds like you've been able to test that several times

**Xavier:** Yeah

**Nay:** Yeah. And you will be. You have a lot coming up, right? That you're about to be working on?

**Mark:** Yeah, what's in the cooker?

**Xavier:** Just a few things to throw out there. First and foremost, because of everything that's been happening with *Horror Noire*, I have been having a good amount of folks reach out to me about *if* I want to do horror work…

**Michael:** Woooo!

**Xavier:** And I'm like, "Hell yeah I wanna do that! What's up?!" So that made me, you know, I've been putting out a call to specifically to screenwriters, "If you're a screenwriter and you have a feature script that deals with Black and Brown folks in horror? Reach out to me, let me read that." I can't say *why*, but there's a reason why I'm asking for that. So that's one thing that's great that's been happening. On the side of the digital series I've been working on, called *Giants*, it just got nominated for a second Emmy, which is amazing

**Michael:** Congrats!

**Mark:** Congratulations

**Michael:** That's awesome

**Xavier:** And it got picked up for TV, so…

**Michael:** Oh, no kidding?

**Xavier:** Yeah, with TVOne-CleoTV, which is great to hear that. And then on the other side, I'm actually working on a super-indie budget drama that deals with the juvenile dependency court, and what happens to women who are taken in when they leave their kids in cars or in different places. So the short film that I did got onto HBO, got me into the Rimer(?) feature directing program, a whole buncha different things like that. It just dropped on Issa Rae's Presents Channel. And then the script that I've been working on for the last four or five years, it started winning different awards for screencraft from the Atlanta Screenplay Film Festival, so now I realize that it's there, and we're essentially looking for that you know, under one million budget to get this thing off the ground. So the biggest thing for me now is saying, "I have this documentary that I've done, but *I*, myself want to get into the narrative feature realm." And that's where I really what I'm pushing for now

**Nay:** Wow. Fucking cool

**Michael:** I was actually gonna ask, Mark brought up earlier was there anything cut from the film that you wanted in the film, and it made me think that I feel like there's a series that could go along with this film, like there's so much more obviously that you couldn't cover 'coz you couldn't have a ten-hour movie. And I was just curious to know if there's been any talk from Shudder or anybody saying-- is there a digital series?

**Xavier:** I can't say anything about that

**Michael:** Okay, I love that

**Xavier:** There's been great, you know, the greatest thing I've been getting in terms of reviews and listening to the analysts and listening to the fans, the biggest criticism is, "We want more."

**Michael:** Yeah. I mean, that's kind of what I took when Mark said, like, "Oh, it's over." That's how I felt too. "I don't want this to end." But like, *Blacula*, I wanna know more about that now, you know what I mean? That's like a one-hour episode right there, y'know?

**Nay:** God, yeah

**Xavier:** I definitely think that there is so much there could be..

**Michael:** Like a *Horror Noire* series

**Xavier:** One hundred percent, there could be a *Horror Noire* series that deals with the different eras, and goes into more specificity. And I would be more than happy to come back for that. But I definitely think this is something where it's gonna be talked with Stage Three and Shudder and that's really based on them versus me

**Michael:** Right. Okay. 'Coz I was like, the number's gotta be good

**Mark:** Make it so, Shudder

**Michael:** Seriously

**Mark:** Just do it

**Mark:** And, you know, maybe one of these days you'll just pick a random film to enjoy…

**Michael:** To come discuss

**Mark:** And just come and discuss

**Nay:** Yeah. Next time you come back, we'll just talk shit about some other movie that's not yours

**Mark:** Some movie you want, something dusty that you want, that you love that you want to share with a wider audience to y'know, give it a wider spotlight, or y'know, just want to tear to shreds. It's up to you!

**Michael:** Whatever your poison is that week

**Mark:** And also, after *Horror Noire*, stay and watch *Ganja and Hess* because you can't fucking find it anywhere and you haven't been able to *find* it anywhere and it's fucking great

**Michael:** The other day I was flipping through Shudder and I totally gay gasped, to the point that Brian heard me in the other room. He's like, "What?" I'm like, "All the movies from the documentary are on here now! I can watch them!"

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