Nålbinding

(9th May 2021)

(opening music)

Liz

Hello and welcome to Bread and Thread, a podcast about food and domestic history, I’m Liz

Hazel

And I’m Hazel. We’re two friends who studied archaeology together and love history and making things, and today we have a very special guest, who Liz has convinced me to introduce in Welsh so croeso (welcome)

Jimmy

Diolch (thank you). Yay!

Hazel

This is Jimmy, who you might know as The Welsh Viking on youtube, so, yeah, do you want to say a little bit about yourself?

Jimmy

Yeah, I didn’t know that was coming until last night, that was a lovely surprise

Hazel

Well neither did I until last week, and then I had to learn how to say thing

Jimmy

Aww

Liz

Well, I am learning Welsh, but it makes more sense from how we open the show for Hazel to introduce a guest. So I was just like “this is how you say it”

Hazel

And then I said it

Jimmy

You did! And you said it well, I’m impressed

Hazel

Thank you

Jimmy

I don’t know what to say now, because I’m meant to be talking about myself. I guess I also studied archaeology, and am still studying archaeology, and love history as well, and make history videos on youtube, and dress up and wear cool costumes that I make

Hazel

Awesome. They are very cool

Jimmy

Thank you

Hazel

And you should go check out the channel. Not you, Jimmy, I’m talking to the listeners

Liz

The general you

Jimmy

Oh right, I’ll close...just close that tab

Hazel

So we normally like to start by talking about things that we’ve been making and/or baking, ‘cause we are also a food history podcast

Jimmy

Yes

Hazel

So, Liz, do you want to start?

Liz

Well, I only have large projects, so like, I’m making progress on my rag rug, but that’s all I have to report. I have cut up many old clothes that I kept meaning to get rid of because they were falling apart, and now they’re turning into a rug

Hazel

That is the rag rug purpose

Liz

That’s pretty much it

Jimmy

That’s so...that’s so nice though

Hazel

Yeah it’s wholesome

Jimmy

Yeah, it’s such wholesome content

Liz

It’s wholesome until you get to the point where I’m swearing at it because it won’t go through the holes in the hessian

Hazel

I think swearing at crafts is, like, a given

Liz

That’s true. I...we do not swear on this podcast but I do wear in real life

Jimmy

Yeah, is it even

Liz

Sorry to break the illusion

Hazel

Just so you know kids

Jimmy

Is it even a real project if you haven’t sworn at it and/or bled in it

Hazel

Yes

Jimmy

Oh

Hazel

This week I finished...wait! I meant to say no

Jimmy

Oh ok, I see. I thought you were just shutting me down like “no”

Hazel

“Hard disagree there”. No. This week I finished the shell for my dress-form, I’m, like, making a dress-form that is meant to be like me but that I can stick pins into on purpose and I have never sworn at anything so much in my life. There’s a lot more structural sewing than I’m used to but, yeah, it’s done and it appears to work

Liz

Woo!

Hazel

So the next thing I have to do is collect a large bag of unspinnable wool from my boyfriend’s mum to use as stuffing, and I’m not sure how that’s gonna work out, but that was offered to me, and I don’t have any polyfil so we’ll find out

Jimmy

That’s such a cool project

Liz

I love that you have two sources for wool, because you’re just that countryside

Hazel

Well, actually, if you count the nice man who owns the pub in the village, and our postman, I have three sources

Liz

I was counting the postman, he was number two in my head

Hazel

Stuart the postman, who I’m pretty sure doesn’t listen to this podcast, he’s wonderful and he’s also a shepherd and sometimes just leaves wool on my doorstep

Jimmy

That’s so charmingly bucolic. That’s wonderful

Hazel

It is. It is very nice

Jimmy

It’s like one of the less racist Tennyson poems

(Liz and Hazel laugh)

Jimmy

Aww

Hazel

Good

Jimmy

That is nice

Hazel

Yeah, what about you?

Jimmy

I’ve mostly been working on my PhD thesis

Hazel

That counts!

Jimmy

That counts. Does that count?

Hazel

It does

Liz

You’re crafting it

Jimmy

I’ve been crafting my PhD thesis to a finely-honed point, as much as I can. I can’t do any fieldwork at the minute ‘cause I live in Scotland, and I’m still not allowed to leave my local authority, which is a bit of a bummer when my fieldwork is all meant to be up in the Western Isles of Scotland and I live in Edinburgh

Hazel

Ah

Jimmy

Yeah...yeah, but apart from that I have been working on a viking dress for myself

Hazel

Awesome

Jimmy

It is made of some lovely Harris tweed

Liz

Ooooh

Jimmy

That I got from the Isle of Harris when I was there

Hazel

That’s impressive

Jimmy

Yeah, that’s mostly it crafts-wise. I think? What else have I been making? Have I been making anything else? I’m just looking over blankly at my partner who is...oh, yes, yeah, I’ve ordered some fabric to make myself some new cloth armour, as well making a gambeson

Liz&Hazel

Aaah

Jimmy

I’ve just ordered lots of yards of linen for that. And that’s about it really. Productivity-wise I’m not at my, like I’m not at my peak

Hazel

What is your peak? Is it just, like, endless variations of historical-ness?

Jimmy

Yeah, endless sewing. Sewing furiously on too many projects at once, but, I don’t know, I feel like the lockdown has been taking up some energy that I would normally have put into crafts somehow, does that make sense?

Hazel

Hmm...yeah, I get that. I think I found, especially for a lot of last year into this winter was quite...not feeling, kind of, the usual “do all the things” energy

Jimmy

Yeah, I think it’s, like, a combination of academic workload, and also surviving lockdown means I’m not, like, knitting a tea cosy and a pair of gloves and learning a new craft and sewing viking clothes at the same time, I’m just going “maybe I’ll sew half an inch of seam tonight, maybe I won’t, we’ll see”

Hazel

Achievement

Jimmy

Achievement. Not really though

Liz

So, I believe you’re going to teach us about a viking craft

Jimmy

I mean, I’m going to sort of talk about it. The amount I can actually teach about it is probably very limited

Liz

If you know more than someone else, and you tell them about it, you’re teaching them

Jimmy

Alright then, well then I’m teaching about nålbinding (he pronounces it naal-bin-ding), sorry, (he pronounces it norl-bin-ding)

Hazel

That’s how you say it!

Jimmy

You say nålbind (he pronounces it norl-binned). I was told off by one of my subscribers for saying naal-binned but it’s pronounced, it’s got a little circle above the a, so it’s nålbinding (he pronounces it norl-bin-ding throughout)

Liz

Nålbinding

Hazel

Nålbinding, ok

Jimmy

And it means “binding with a needle, a needle binding”

Hazel

A nål

Jimmy

A nål, y’all

Liz

It’s a good word

Hazel

It is. Ok, in that case I am very excited because I have tried to learn nålbinding and failed very very much

Liz

Yeah I have as well, like, Nick bought me a book on it and I just, I could not...I could not get my head ‘round it

Hazel

Yeah, it’s witchcraft

Jimmy

It’s magic. It’s magic, it’s amazing. It is witchcraft, I have a friend who has made me nålbind socks, and they’re beautiful and wonderful and they’re warm and snuggly but it’s just, it’s just so mysterious

Hazel

Magic sock

Jimmy

The magic socks of Shoggoth...or of Jen. I mean, she’s called Jen, not Shoggoth

Hazel

Ok

Jimmy

But, yeah, it is a very old craft, very very old indeed. The oldest piece of nålbind that we have is from Israel and it’s from circa 6500 BCE

Liz&Hazel

Wow!

Jimmy

So it is super old

Hazel

Mm-hmm

Jimmy

Like, nearly 8000 years old, and you can do it with loads of stuff, you can do it with wool fibre, and there is a piece from Denmark, from a mesolithic fishing village, that was made using lime bast, so like, lime, sort of fibre made from lime tree fbre

Hazel

No way

Jimmy

Yes

Hazel

I’ve heard of a lot of plants being used for making clothing but, lime trees?

Jimmy

Yes, yes

Liz

So that’s basically paper

Jimmy

Not like the citrus tree, like the linden tree lime tree

Hazel

Oh, I see, ok

Jimmy

Which is slightly less cool, but still cool

Liz

I mean it’s still paper string

Jimmy

It’s still paper string. The, sort of, Coptic Egypt, we’ve got lots of examples from, from Christian, early Christian Egypt, Nazca-culture Peru, somewhere around 150AD I think we’ve got...we’ve got examples of it from. So it’s just this amazing craft that people seem to have independently used all over the world, and it’s sort of knitting-but-not-knitting but also not crochet and you use a needle not a hook. Yeah

Hazel

That’s really interesting, because when I think of nålbinding I very much associate with the vikings

Jimmy

Yeah

Hazel

I mean I kind of knew about it in Egypt, but I didn’t realise it was so world-wide

Jimmy

I know, it’s crazy. I think there’s still...there’s still a tribe in Peru where it’s their...it’s kind of their cultural...this. Like it’s one of the idiosyncrasies of their tribe is that they do nålbind, and all of the other, sort of, tribes around - I really hope tribe is the word to use in this case, I think it is - don’t really practice it any more, but the women of this one tribe up in the hills, or mountains, in Peru just sit and nålbind gloves and hats and socks and all kinds of amazing things. But yeah, we’ve got loads of viking age...the most famous one probably from the UK is the York sock, that they found in Coppergate, and it’s just a single sock and it’s lovely

Liz

Yeeees. We did our undergrad in York, we have seen the Coppergate sock

Jimmy

Huzzah! I did my master’s in York so I, too, have seen the Coppergate sockl

Liz

It’s a good sock

Jimmy

It is a good sock!

Hazel

So yeah, we have all pronounced it a good sock

Jimmy

It is a fine sock, officially. But, yeah, basically you make a loop with your yarn, and then you make a loop in the loop, and then you make a loop in that loop, and you carry on until you’ve got a circle, a ring of loops that is connected to the first loop, so that it is a solid piece, and you try not to...so it’s not like knitting or crochet where, like, you tighten things up as you go, you don’t want to tighten up the loops that you make in nålbinding, is what I’ve been told by the many many people who are better at it than me. So you make a loop at the size that you want it, and that’s why so many people find it so tricky, ‘cause it...it’s laborious and time consuming to make sure that every single loop of yarn that you make is exactly the right size and tension before moving on to the next one

Hazel

Ok. So yeah, like in knitting where you have your needles which make all the loops exactly the same size, you don’t have that here

Jimmy

Yeah

Hazel

You just have to individually make them the same size

Jimmy

Yes

Hazel

Like, manually

Jimmy

And you’ve only got one needle to play with, as well, which just makes everything more complicated. ‘Cause what you want in a craft is, you know, make it as difficult and complicated as possible

Liz

I mean presumably this is why we later developed all of the other yarn crafts

Jimmy

I would imagine...I mean, it was being used at the same time as knitting, in, sort of, the 12th/13th centuries in some part of northern Europe, we think, but, yeah, knitting and crochet, I can knit and crochet a storm, like I could knit, I could knit you whatever you want bro, but I can’t nålbind to save my...well to save my life probably I could, but it wouldn’t be much of a life. They’d still take a finger or something like it’d still be…

Hazel

I imagine it’d be quite a lot of pressure in that situation so you might not be that good at it

Liz

Yeah

Jimmy

No, I get performance anxiety so I think I probably...I’d probably choke. They’d be like “nålbind me a Coppergate sock replica” and I’d be like (incoherent yelling) and then I’d be sick, and then I’d faint, and then I’d wake up and like, got no kidney

Liz

I’m just trying to work out how bad you’d have to be at nålbinding to lose a finger

Jimmy

Like, while I was doing it

Hazel

In a tragic nålbinding accident

Liz

You said you might lose a finger

Jimmy

In a freak nålbind accident. I meant, like, whoever was forcing me to make stuff for them would probably get bored and be like “right, no”

Liz

I was just imagining, like, you get it caught in one of the loops and just tighten and tighten and tighten

Jimmy

And then don’t notice, and then all of a sudden your finger drops off and you’re like “oh...whoops”. I wouldn’t put it past myself

Hazel

And that is why you have to be very very careful when nålbinding

Jimmy

That’s why I have to be....that’s why I have to...that’s why I’m a youtuber and not a professional nålbinder and I have to get all my friends to make things for me. But that’s nålbind, the very very old fibrecraft that we all associate with the vikings is actually nearly 8000 years old, which is crazy. When I found that out I was mindblown

Hazel

That’s incredible

Hazel

I know

Jimmy

I’m just amazed that we’ve got...we’ve got a...a worked organic fibre from that far back is in itself just awesome, but Israel seems to be really lucky in terms of, like, their fibre finds and stuff, they get lots of wool

Hazel

Yeah, in the tyrian purple episode that we did, the latest oldest find of the actual purple wool with the purple dye in it came from Israel I think

Jimmy

Amazing, so lucky. But yeah, that’s most of my knowledge on nålbinding. I’m no good at it, I’m really no good at it, I managed to make, like, the chain, I’m looking right now, I’m sat on my bed holding a chain, an initial chain of loops, and that is the most successful nålbinding I’ve ever done, and I did it to try and remember how you do it for this episode, so...I’m very proud of myself

Hazel

Excellent. So, one of the things I know from having tried to learn to nålbind is that you have...on your needle you have a length of thread and that’s what you’ve got, so when you get to the end of it you have to join another one on

Jimmy

Yeah

Hazel

So when you’re using wool, you can do that by just applying moisture and friction, but if you’re using a plant fibre how do you...how do you join a new one on?

Jimmy

You’d have to knot it, I assume? I mean I imagine you’d have to knot it together, I don’t know anyone who’s nålbind with plant fibre I don’t think, but I imagine you’d have to tie it onto the...tie it onto the old yarn? I guess?

Liz

I guess it depends on how the fibre’s processed, ‘cause I know with bamboo yarn you can attach it the same way as with wool, but I don’t know if the lime would act the same way

Hazel

Ok

Jimmy

I wonder. That’s really interesting, I didn’t know you could do that with bamboo, that’s really good to know. I’ve got some bamboo yarn, maybe I’ll try nålbinding with some bamboo, let everyone know the hilarious results

Hazel

Yeah, you should do it

Jimmy

I’ll do it, I’m gonna give it a go, see how it goes

Hazel

Experimental archaeology

Jimmy

Exactly. For the win

Liz

So, when I was trying to learn nålbinding, the needle I ended up getting was this kind of flat, slightly bent piece of wood, is that, like is that how...what evidence do we have for actual needles? Are they like that or is it...is that just what someone decided to do?

Jimmy

We’ve got a few different, sort of, they’re all kind of similar in terms of the form, like, in terms of the general shape. So they’re usually...they are usually flattened, not sure what you’d call it, like an oval, sort of like an oval in profile, and they range from, kind of, an inch and a bit long, to like three inches long, something along those lines, with a hole at one end, quite well pointed at the other end, like they tend to be fairly sharp, and then I think some of them are quite sharply bent, like they almost look like a leatherworker’s needle for doing tunnel stitch, but the majority of them are pretty straight, like they don’t have an obvious hooked shape or anything like that.

Mine is made of bone, I think the majority of the ones that we’ve got are either bone, antler, or wood. I’ve got a friend that’s got a metal one. I don’t know how that affects it, craft-wise, like I don’t know if it being slipperier than bone ones that, they’re porous, so they can catch on the yarn a bit, I don’t know if that helps, like with knitting needles but, hmm, something to experiment with. Yeah, I think the vast majority (inaudible), yeah I think the vast majority we’ve got, they tend to be make of wood or bone, and I’m kind of, I’m trying to think of a good way of describing the shape, other than needle-shape which isn’t very helpful

Hazel

It’s hard to do this over an audio medium, yeah

Jimmy

It is. I’m trying to think...if you think of like, a chopstick, where they’re not...they’re not the shape of a sewing needle, they’re the shape of a chopstick, but much much shorter, so like, imagine you’ve cut a wooden chopstick in half, rounded the, like rounded its bum end, and then made a hole in it, that’s how...that’s kind of their shape. And then some of the antler ones have got quite, like, freaky-shaped ends, like they’d got very odd, very organic, kind of knobbly shaped ends, which are very attractive in their own way. Yeah, that’s kind of a shape. They’re long and thin and they’ve got a hole in one end. Yes...yeees. I’m good at this

Liz

I’m sorry for dragging you from the world of video for this

Jimmy

I’m descriptive. One of the real advantages of it is it’s very good for insulation and trapping heat, like knitting and crochet are, because of all the air trapped in. It’s very good at it, and it’s also easy to make into intricate shapes, so some of the Coptic Egyptian socks are like, ankle-height two-toed socks, which

Liz

Yeah, we’ll tweet a picture of that when this episode goes up, ‘cause

Jimmy

Yeah

Liz

I’ve seen it described in multiple places as “the lobster sock”

Jimmy

Lobster sock. Yes, exactly, but they’re amazing and they’re so intricate-looking but if you’re good at nålbind you can throw these things out, you can start a little production line, and I know people who can nålbind a pair of socks relatively quickly, and it looks very impressive, and they’re warm, but I think it’s like knitting and crocheting, where you can make very intricate shapes with relatively few skills, like relatively few techniques. Like, it’s one technique, basically, one stitch you have to learn one stitch. Once you’re good at that stitch, you can make...shrugs...you know, you can make socks, whatever you want to make. Mittens, you want to make gloves, you want to make a hat? Do whatever you want. I think the reason it’s not, or wasn’t, I don’t know anyone who does, used for bigger garments is it is quite labour-intensive as a craft, like it does take more work than knitting I think, or crocheting. Definitely more than crocheting. I learned to crochet drunk, in a pub in the Isle of Man, so…

Hazel

So anyone can

Jimmy

If I can, hamfasted goon, anyone can. Yeah I think that’s the...that’s its advantage, is its flexibility in terms of making intricately shaped smaller garments that will keep you snug

Hazel

Yeah I can see that kind of buildability, that’s a word...

Jimmy

Is now

Hazel

...being useful because to cut, like shape a woven fabric to your foot or something, it’s gonna be a little bit tricky, you’re gonna have that annoying seam whereas if you’re nålbinding you can just go round and round, kind of build it up as you go in that 3D shape

Jimmy

Yeah, like crochet, right, because if you crochet, you know, like a baby hat or something, you’re just going round and round and round and round and round, yeah? Makes sense to me. Could be wrong. I could be lying. There could be, like, hoards of nålbinders, if that’s what you call yourselves, waiting to tell me I’m wrong. There’s always someone listening to what I’m saying ready to tell me I’m wrong, I hate being on youtube

Liz&Hazel

(laughter)

Hazel

I mean, I like to think of it more charitably than that, it’s more...I’m not sure if...I dunno maybe they do, I don’t know what goes through the mind of people

Jimmy

No, everybody’s fabulous. All fabulous

Liz

Our listeners are lovely

Jimmy

You’re listeners are lovely

Hazel

They are, they’re good. I just like the idea of somebody like, just browsing youtube like “ooh I wonder who I’m gonna prove wrong this time

Jimmy

I do get comments from people who are like that, I’m told. Fellow members of the big red video website community will be like “oh that guy, yeah, he always turns up at videos” and I’m just like “oh right, oh crickey”

Liz

That just means you’re successful, if you’re getting trolls

Hazel

Yeah

Jimmy

Yeah that’s the thing isn’t it. If you get trolls, that means you’re an internet success. That’s my two cents on why it’s popular as a, as a technique for certain things. People have asked me some things sometimes like “oh do we have any evidence that they used nålbind to make, like, dresses, or tunics or what-have-you”, and we don’t really but, you know, again from an early medieval context wouldn’t really have a lot of them anyway from Northern Europe, but it’s kind of like you can crochet a full dress if you want, or you can knit a full floor-length dress if you want. Don’t, but you can if you like. Somebody way back when probably did nålbind a full-length garment, they couldn’t feel their hands for a while after probably because it must have taken just yonks to do

Hazel

I feel like it must have been quite heavy as well because, like, the amount of yarn that you’re using is a lot more than what you would use in, say, weaving, because that’s what makes it warm

Jimmy

So like you could crochet a granny square blanket, I wonder if there were people who made nålbind blankets and snugglies for babies, turned up like “(old lady voice) oh I’ve made him a blanket, it’ll keep him nice and warm”, it’s just this massive, heavy, awesome nålbind thing “(old lady voice) put him in that he’ll grow into it”

Liz

I mean, I imagine a Scandinavian baby would be quite thankful for something that thick and cosy

Jimmy

Some of the...some of the, like, some of the viking clothing that we’ve got that have survived like “wow, it’s always been cold up there, hey lads”, it’s amazing. There’s a piece in the Yorkshire Museum, actually, of, I think it’s 10th, sort of, plus/minus 50 years 950AD ish that they found in Coppergate and it’s just the thickest, roughest piece of woven cloth you’ve ever seen, like each strand is just as thick as your pinky finger it’s

Hazel

Wow

Jimmy

Yeah it’s (approving noises) meaty

(crosstalk)

Liz

...next time I’m in York

Jimmy

So cool, it’s lovely, I think it’s like, it’s in that weird display they’ve got going down the stairs into the basement, where nothing’s got any kind of interpretation next to it, it’s just like “here’s some stuff, enjoy it!”

Liz

It bothers me, that display

Jimmy

Aww, bless them, they’re trying. It’s a superb museum. Everyone go to the Yorkshire Museum

Hazel

It is good

Liz

I just...I have a grudge against all the museums in York because none of them are free

Hazel

But the Roman Bath Museum is cheap

Jimmy

And under a pub

Liz

It is cheap and under a pub but also museums should be free

Jimmy

Agreed

Hazel

No, agreed

Jimmy

What’s the point of the National Museums Act 2001 if it doesn’t extend to everything?

Liz

Exactly! You have no idea, the one essay in my master’s in museum studies that I got a distinction in was the one about how museums should be free. I have feelings

Jimmy

I get so many friends from North America who come over and I’ll take them to the National Museum Scotland or the V&A or the BM and they’ll get their wallets out to pay and I’m like “oh, no, we don’t do that here. You don’t need that”

Liz

And then York is just sitting their, mocking us

Hazel

Give us your money, we are the city of York

Jimmy

Rubbing its full belly, smoking a cigar in a top hat like “(waluigi noise) Capital o’ t’ North!” It’s not a thing, stop it “(waluigi noise)”

Liz

It is the exact noise I hear every time I have to pay for a museum

Jimmy

(waluigi noise) 16 quid (vomiting noise) or however much it is to get into a York Museums Trust museum

Hazel

Gosh, yeah, and they all do the one where you like, they’re like “oh it’s expensive, but you can come in for a whole year” and you’re like “great I’m only here for two days”

Jimmy

Tourists are like “well I guess we’ll have to come on this incredibly expensive holiday again this year, hurrah”

Hazel

“Stay in York for a year, I’m just going to apply to the university”. That’s how I went to York

Jimmy

Well yeah, join the York archaeology club

Liz

We had a mission to go to every museum in York while we lived there, it was pretty great

Hazel

Oh yeah, did we do that?

Liz

I know I did, I don’t remember if you went to the chocolate museum

Hazel

I haven’t been to the chocolate museum. But I have been to Goddard’s House, which has the very last Terry’s chocolate orange ever made in York

Jimmy

Yes it does

Liz

Yes, we talked about this didn’t we

Jimmy

An amazing artifact

Hazel

It is

Jimmy

I bet it’s rank now, inside the wrapper

Liz

Aw it’s got all that white stuff on it

Hazel

I dunno, I’d still eat it, for archaeology

Jimmy

Oh yeah, 100%, yeah

Jimmy&Liz

For science

Hazel

For science

Jimmy

Yeah, like all of the food in Captain Scott’s cabin in the antarctic that’s still technically edible, like, shall we crack a bully beef, for science

Hazel

Didn’t Ranulph Fiennes eat, no I think he bought one of the biscuits from the Scott expedition

Jimmy

Wow

Hazel

I was about to say I think he ate it, but I don’t think that’s actually true. But I do remember, because it was quite a large sum of money

Jimmy

Ranulph...if there’s an article on Vice or somewhere that Ranulph Fiennes has got galloping botulism or something, we’ll know that he did the thing

Hazel

I’m just gonna check if that’s true or not, or if I just made that upI’m googling Ranulph Fiennes biscuit

Jimmy

Careful, careful

Hazel

No, no, it’s true, it’s true, it was a biscuit found next to Scott’s body, and it was auctioned for £4000 in the 90s

Jimmy

4 grand for a biccy!

Hazel

Yep. As far as I can tell he did not eat it

Jimmy

I was like “you didn’t even eat it! There’s a man with too much money”. I went really Welsh then, I get Welsh when I perceive, like, unnecessary grandeur. “Who does he think he is, buying a biscuit?”

Hazel

He did give it to the UK Antarctic Heritage Trust, apparently

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Liz

So, considering quite how off-topic we’ve got, shall we move on to the local larder?

Hazel

Let’s!

Jimmy

I’m sorry, that was all my fault

Hazel

We don’t normally get this off topic, yeah, it’s all your fault, you should feel bad

Jimmy

I do apologise

Liz

So, I want to talk about a surprisingly controversial cake (they pronounce it caek)

Hazel

You just went very Lancashire, I’m excited, this is gonna be good

Liz

It’s what happens when I say cake

Jimmy

You did as well

Liz

In my defence, I’m from Lancashire

Hazel

Well that’s alright then

Liz

Colin the Caterpillar

Jimmy

Oooooooh

Liz

I assume you’ve both seen about the controversy

Hazel

You’re opening a can of worms here, or a can of caterpillars!

Jimmy

The most controversial cake in the world

Hazel

Right, do you want to explain the controversy for any listeners who may not be in the UK?

Liz

Ok, so, in 1990 Marks and Spencer, probably the most middle-class supermarket until Waitrose came along, tell me I’m wrong

Jimmy

Can’t

Liz

Launched a cake called Colin the Caterpillar, which is basically...it’s a chocolate swiss roll, covered in chocolate and basically smarties, with a white chocolate face and milk chocolate eyes, those details will be important later, became incredibly popular, probably as a combination of the 80s trend for food that looks like other things, which was genuinely a big thing in the 80s, probably combined with the book The Very Hungry Caterpillar which, yeah, was published in 1969 but by the 90s was basically every child in Britain reads this book, and it very quickly became a staple of kids’ parties. Celebrity fans actually include Judi Dench, David Beckham, and David Cameron. Genuinely Judi Dench’s 83rd birthday she had a Colin the Caterpillar

Jimmy

Queen

Hazel

That’s fantastic. She is living

Liz

I love Judi Dench. I think it’s also...I can’t remember if it’s her or Helen Mirren that embroiders swear words but Judi Dench did once play D&D with Vin Diesel

Jimmy

That’s an incredibly factoid

Liz

So yeah, basically every supermarket has its own knock-off version, but then Aldi...most of the knock-off version they have things like fondant faces, they have sprinkles, all these different things that make it distinct, and Aldi, the opposite of Marks and Spencer, brings out a caterpillar cake with smarties, white chocolate face, milk chocolate eyes, virtually identical packaging and, understandably I think - there was a time when I was on Aldi’s side, and then I learned more - with it being that similar Marks and Spencers just went “no, this one is very blatantly just copying us, please stop it”. Aldi’s one is called Cuthbert, so FreeCuthbert was trending on UK twitter for a while

Hazel

The main reason this is so topical, right, is because it’s become a twitter war

Liz

The court case is ongoing

Hazel

It’s like a twitter war between supporters of Marks and Spencers and Aldi

Liz

I do think my favourite part, though, is that a chippy in Cleethorpes, which is I believe in Lincolnshire

Jimmy

Lincolnshire. North Lincolnshire, yeah

Liz

Is selling deep-fried mini Colin the Caterpillars

Jimmy

Oh wow

Liz

And raising money for the Teenage Cancer Trust with it

Jimmy

Be right back, got to go to Cleethorpes

Hazel

Said no-one ever

Liz

So yeah, it’s just this huge controversy, and there isn’t a lot of history to it but I just...I wanted to share it with our listeners, because a lot of them aren’t based in the UK and don’t know about the cake controversy

Jimmy

But it is everywhere here right now. It’s like, it’s headline news here right now

Liz

It is, as I said on twitter the other day, it is all kicking off in the cake fandom

Hazel

It is indeed. Ok so what changed your mind, ‘cause last time I spoke to you I think you were on Aldi’s side in this whole controversy

Liz

Well, the way that the Free Cuthbert side portrays it is very much Marks and Spencer going after Aldi because they are the, you know, they’re the cheap supermarket, they aren’t allowed to copy it even though everyone else is. And then I found out that it is virtually identical, and Marks and Spencer’s argument is basically because it’s so identical it’s not just “here’s another cake that looks like a caterpillar” it’s “here is a copy”

Hazel

Yeah, having seen them side-by-side, like, the faces do look the same

Jimmy

It is pretty blatant, I’ve just pulled it up and yeah

Liz

And I mean, I know my caterpillar cakes, I’ve had one for every one of my 26 birthdays. True facts

Hazel

You’re a colin-oisseur

Liz

I am. But there’s a lot of variations of Colin the Caterpillar now, which I enjoy, and there’s also...yeah. Last year they marked the 30th anniversary by declaring the 26th of August National Colin the Caterpillar Day. They launched bags of Colin the Caterpillar faces

Hazel

Oh no I don’t like that

Liz

A word I have to say very carefully in this accent. There’s also a 40-serving version

Jimmy

40 serving Colin the Caterpillar

Liz

Yeah!

Hazel

That’s a big caterpillar

Jimmy

That’s an anaconda!

Liz

There is Connie the Caterpillar, which is a girl one with a pink bow ‘cause everything has to be gendered

Hazel

Oh that’s how you know it’s a girl

Liz

In 2017 they launched bride and groom cakes. Each one weighs two kilos and they are dressed as a bride and groom

Jimmy

I’ve got to see this

Liz

This year they also had Colin the Caterpillar Easter eggs

Jimmy

Oh no

Hazel

How do you get an Easter egg to look like a caterpillar?

Liz

You put in a bag of the faces

Hazel

Oh

Jimmy

I wasn’t ready for the bride and groom! He’s got a little bow tie!

Liz

I’ll tweet a picture of that as well ‘cause it’s the most adorable thing

Hazel

Yeah I think we need to tweet this

Jimmy

Aww that’s so sweet

Liz

But I thought I would play a little game with you two

Hazel

Ok

Liz

I’m calling it Guess the Caterpillar. I’m gonna tell you the name of a knock-off caterpillar cake, and you’re gonna guess which supermarket it’s from

Jimmy

Oooh

Hazel

Ok

Liz

I’m only gonna do three, ‘cause there’s...every supermarket has one, but I’m just gonna do three. Wiggles!

Hazel&Jimmy

Wiggles

Liz

Wiggles the Caterpillar

Jimmy

Wiggles, that sounds like it might...I’m gonna go for Waitrose, because they’ve got a W in their name

Hazel

Ok. I dunno. I think I’m gonna go Tesco, that sounds like something they might do, you know, in an effort to try and make it distinct

Liz

Nope that’s Sainsbury’s

Hazel

That’s a bit left-field

Liz

I’ll tell you Tesco’s is Curly

Hazel

Ok

Jimmy

I find that very amusing and I’m not sure why

Liz

What about Cecil the Caterpillar

Jimmy

Cecil the Caterpillar

Liz

Cecil. Buy this children’s cake it’s called Cecil

Jimmy

I feel...wait, wait, from the tone

Hazel

Oh is that gonna be Waitrose, do you think?

Jimmy

I reckon that’s Waitrose ‘cause that sounds...

Hazel

It does

Jimmy

Cecil’s quite a posh name

Hazel

Cecil is

Liz

It is Waitrose

Jimmy

Yes!

Hazel

Yeah

Liz

This last one’s an easy one. Morris the Caterpillar

Jimmy

Asda!

Hazel

Is it Morrison’s?

Jimmy

It’s got to be

Liz

It is Morrison’s

Hazel

I would be angry if it wasn’t

Jimmy

Yeah, it’s Morrigogs

Liz

Yeah, Clyde is the Asda one

Hazel&Jimmy

Clyde!

Liz

Clive at One-Stop, I didn’t even know One-Stop had them

Hazel

Wow

Jimmy

Clive!

Liz

Co-op’s one doesn’t even have one, it’s just called The Curious Caterpillar, and I feel weirdly sorry for it

Hazel

Aww it doesn’t have a name

Jimmy

I’m amazed One-Stop’s got its own

Hazel

I just can’t get over Clyde, it sounds like the caterpillar’s about to rob a bank

Jimmy

Member of a vicious criminal gang

Liz

I’m gonna have to find out what Asda’s girl one’s called, because I know they do have a girl one, and if it’s not Bonnie I’m gonna be very disappointed

Jimmy

Oh it’s gotta be. Clyde. That’s so good. That was actually more challenging than I thought it would be

Liz

Oh that’s disappointing, it’s Frida

Hazel&Jimmy

(disappointed oh)

Liz

Cowards. They do however also do a giant one

Hazel

Ok

Liz

So you don’t have to go to Marks and Spencer’s for your giant caterpillar cake

Jimmy

I might ask for a caterpillar cake for my birthday this year, ‘cause I didn’t get...like I had a nice birthday last year, but it was a lockdown birthday ‘cause my birthday’s in May. I might ask if I can have a caterpillar

Liz

I mean everyone’s had a lockdown birthday now

Jimmy

True. I’m not special, ok, I get it, but…

Hazel

But you can have a caterpillar cake

Jimmy

Have you had the same...is it always a Colin that you have on your birthday?

Liz

It’s just whatever supermarket. Like, my parents shop at a couple of different ones

Hazel

Don’t have much brand loyalty

Liz

When I lived in York I got the Sainsbury’s one, now we get the Asda one

Jimmy

Do you have a preference, or…

Liz

I mean I do have a preference for the Colin just because it has the chocolate face, ‘cause I don’t like fondant. There’s a fun fact about me

Jimmy

Good to know! I mean if this’d been an in-person studio recording and I’d brought a load of fondant fancies, and you hadn’t eaten them

Hazel

Yeah

Jimmy

That would have been mortifying for everyone involved

Hazel

That could be a really awkward situation

Liz

It’s a thing that Nick enjoys though so it means when they get fondant fancies I don’t ask for any

Jimmy

Fantastic. More for me, more for me

Liz

So yeah, that’s an introduction to Free Cuthbert, and probably one of my favourite British things, the caterpillar cake

Jimmy

The Free Cuthbert movement

Liz

One day they’ll have their own banner in the People’s History

Hazel

The next exhibition is the caterpillar freedom movement of 2021

Jimmy

There’s definitely been weirder museum displays...maybe? Maybe not

Liz

I mean, it depends on how you define weird

Jimmy

I mean, I don’t...niche. I mean it is rapidly becoming a cultural phenomenon, and it is a very British thing. I mean there’s probably not a brit who doesn’t at least kind of recognise the caterpillar cake as a thing. So maybe it isn’t a weird thing to put as a museum display, maybe...I dunno. Don’t look at me. I’m just an archaeologist. I just dig them up, you put them in the museum. What do you want from me

Liz

I guess I am the most museum person here

Hazel

I do kind of want to go into an M&S, grab the Colin and just go “it belongs in a museum!”

Liz&Jimmy

(laugh)

Jimmy

Do like in Temple of Doom and replace it with something of an equal weight

Liz

Like with a Cuthbert

Jimmy

Replace it with a Cuthbert

Hazel

See if anyone notices

Liz

That’s the ultimate test for their legal case, is can they tell it’s been replaced

Jimmy

Security guard walks past an hour later. “(gasps) My god! Sound the alarm, Colin’s been kidnapped”

Liz

So I want to thank people for listening. This was a really fun episode

Hazel

Yeah, thank you very much for coming on our podcast thing

Jimmy

I warned you about the chaos energy. I tried to warn you, I’m sorry

Hazel

I think it went in a constructive direction

Liz

Yeah. So, if you want to yell at us about caterpillar cakes, or say hi, or suggest an episode, or any of that jazz, we have an email address, [[1]]

Hazel

We also have a twitter, @breadandthread, where you can see teasers on what’s coming up, you can see things that we say we’re gonna tweet about, that you can see with your eyes instead of just hearing with your ears

Liz

Great job

Hazel

And we have a patreon, which is also breadandthread?

Liz

It is

Hazel

I should know that, which has recipes and a Discord server. Do we have anything else?

Liz

We have a tumblr

Hazel

We do have a tumblr!

Liz

Which is also breadandthread. Which has so far largely been me talking about the episode and reblogging random food-related things

Jimmy

That sounds really nice to be fair

Liz

Interact with it and I will interact with you

Hazel

Yeah

Liz

Jimmy, I believe...this episode comes out on the 9th of May, I believe you are doing a thing that day

Jimmy

I am, I’m running a charity 5k wearing my viking chainmail. I say viking chainmail, it’s, you know, fairly good for late Roman to 11th century, anyway! Yeah, I’m running a 5k up here in Edinburgh for Stonewall, which is a charity that helps LGBT+ people who are being marginalised or struggling in lots of different ways. We’ve already raised £2000 and we have a JustGiving page

Hazel

Wow

Jimmy

Which is https://www.justgiving.com/thewelshviking, just type The Welsh Viking into JustGiving and I’ll turn up

Hazel

Personally?

Jimmy

I’ll turn up at your house, yeah

Liz

With a bag with a pound sign on it

Jimmy

A pound sign, yeah, and a small, ineffective mask across my eyes

Hazel

That sounds like an absolute mission, good luck

Jimmy

Thank you, as we record I’ve already pulled a muscle in my calf training for it so it’s, yeah, it’s going well. It’s genuinely going well, it’s gonna be great, it’s gonna be cool, it’s gonna be fun, I’ve got a couple of friends doing it with me. So yeah, if anybody’s in Edinburgh, come and watch three men running in the park. I’ve finished. I’ve stopped. I’ve stopped.

Liz

So yeah, thank you for listening, and I don’t know what the next episode’s gonna be on. You’ll have to wait and find out

(closing music)