Episode 38: "The Lesbian Vest"

*This week Michael and Nay are flying solo to discuss the nutball sequel WHEN A STRANGER CALLS BACK!   Further show notes deferred because Brennan is the one who writes these and he's currently in Hawai'i nursing a bottle of aloe vera gel.    Plus, in Tea Time we sip on GAME OF THRONES, MA, and BEAT BOBBY FLAY!  This week Michael and Nay are flying solo to discuss the nutball sequel WHEN A STRANGER CALLS BACK!   Further show notes deferred because Brennan is the one who writes these and he's currently in Hawai'i nursing a bottle of aloe vera gel.    Plus, in Tea Time we sip on GAME OF THRONES, MA, and BEAT BOBBY FLAY!* [1]

## **Trivia**

Trivia: First episode with just two hosts, Michael and Nay, and no guests. Ernie the sound guy gets another shout-out and an invitation to be on-air and actually speaks on the show for the first time.

Topics brought up during the episode: The first live show on *Sleepaway Camp II: Unhappy Campers;* Nay's solo art show on July 6th for her birthday (which is on the 8th) at Project Q in Downtown LA in Chinatown; Madden, the founder of Project Q haircuts at the Youth Center on Highland and free haircuts for queer youth with their mobile center; Project Q fundraiser online; Madden profiled in Teen Vogue; *Avenue Q*

## **Pride Float**

**Michael:** Does it get a Pride float?

**Nay:** Um, no

**Michael:** No?

**Nay:** No, but maybe--

**Michael:** Julia's definitely working security at Pride though (chuckles)

**Nay:** You know, isn't there-- am I right or wrong about this? But isn't there a tent at Pride? Oh no, they did that at Coachella this year. They had an area for people who maybe had experienced some kind of assault at the event, or if you got groped or--

**Michael:** Current? At the current event?

**Nay:** Yeah, a healing space where you could go with people to check in with. I feel like it would be nice if Pride had-- maybe it does

**Michael:** Yeah, I'm wondering

**Nay:** Y'all please let me know

**Michael:** Yeah, please let us know. Because I'm sure there's some cities that have some kind of resources that have something available to people if they're triggered at the event or if they show up to the event and their abusive ex is--

**Michael:** Is there too, yeah

**Nay:** Following them around and won't leave them alone

**Michael:** Right

**Nay:** Or some straight dude that showed up to be an asshole and won't leave them alone, you know?

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm

**Nay:** Whatever. I think maybe--

**Michael:** She would work there? Volunteer there?

**Nay:** This movie has to have some community service

**Michael:** Yeah!

**Nay:** To support people at--

**Michael:** Yeah. That's a good idea. And they don't have to do community service with *Sleepaway Camp* (laughs)

**Nay:** Yeah, no. No no no

**Michael:** I actually watched that this weekend. I texted you about that last night, didn't I?

**Nay:** Yeah, you did

**Michael:** (giggles) That movie is *so mean!* They're just so mean to each other

## **Quotes**

**Michael:** It's just us today

**Nay:** I can't believe it

**Michael:** It's like… heaven

**Nay:** (laughs)

**Michael:** I love you, Brennan and Sam, but--

**Nay:** Yeah, of course

**Michael:** Nay and I are really excited to be the duo today

**Nay:** Yeah. I'm really happy

**Michael:** *Who knows* what will be said

**Nay:** Oh lord. Yeah. Might have to be editing a lot

**Michael:** Hi, Ernie!

**Nay:** Ernie's here, though. I was like, "Ernie, do you want a mic?"

**Michael:** What did he say?

**Nay:** He said, "I'll be on standby."

**Ernie:** (off-mic) "Yeah, I'll be on standby."

**Nay:** *Yaaaas!!!* Y'all, that's Ernie!

**Michael:** Ernie's our amazing sound technician

**Nay:** Right. Ernie's the best

**Ernie:** (on-mic) Hello, hello

**Nay:** Oh my God!

**Michael:** *Yes*

**Nay:** *Yes!*

**Michael:** You just heard Ernie

**Nay:** Ernie's the best, let me tell you. Because we had to reschedule because my apartment just *exploded*. The washing machine, the toilet clogged, all at once. I was like, "*Good lord!*"

**Michael:** (laughing) I don't mean to laugh, but--

**Nay:** Right at six PM, right when I needed to leave the house to record

**Michael:** Yep, so Ernie--

**Nay:** (sighs) Ernie, thank you *so much*

**Michael:** *Yeah*

**Ernie:** (off-mic) Yeah

**Michael:** (to Nay) And I'm glad you were able to be like, "Let's see if we can reschedule."

**Nay:** No, I'm glad *you* were like that, because I was still like, "Um, I don't think I'll be that late!"

**Michael:** (chuckles) And I'm like, "Uh girl, you wanna reschedule?"

**Nay:** It's like when Michael was shitting his brains out and was like, (as Michael) "You guys, I really don't know if I can make it." (normal voice) And I was like, "Michael, *duh*. Stay the fuck home."

**Michael:** Yeah, there's-- it's always good when you have a friend who kinda gets what's going on, and I don't wanna say will speak for you, but make you grasp the reality of the situation

**Nay:** *Yeah*

**Michael:** Because so many times I know with that situation, and I could tell via our texts the other day with *your* situation--

**Nay:** *Yeah*

**Michael:** That neither of us in those moments really wanted to ask for what we wanted

**Nay:** Yeah. I don't even think I thought about it

**Michael:** Yeah. I was like, "We need to reschedule this."

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** And then you said this to me when I was like, Mount Vesuvius out of my butt

**Nay:** Yeah (laughs)

**Michael:** When you were like, "Girl, you're not coming to the show today."

**Nay:** Yeah, why? I ain't the one tryin' to deal wit' you (laughs)

**Michael:** Well that's the other thing I've learned in L.A., 'cause back home when I worked in the midwest at a sales job or like *any* job--

**Nay:** Oh, you're fucking going to work

**Michael:** Yeah, there was like, a *fear* of calling out sick

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** And the people at work don't care if you're sick. But in L.A., you sniffle and it's like, "Get the fuck out of here."

**Nay:** Well yeah 'cause in the midwest it's like, they're like, "I don't give a fuck if there's a blizzard…"

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** "Or anything. You're coming in."

**Michael:** "You are not using your one vacation day for the year." (chuckles)

**Nay:** Right.

**Nay:** Yeah, no, I think all of this is really relevant to the time of year that we're at right now, because it is June, it *is* Pride month

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm

**Nay:** And I think something actually Ernie and I were talking about before the show-- actually mostly me. Poor Ernie! Oooh, I've been talkin' so much! And the little bit when you got here is about Pride month and being excited-- this is my personal opinion. I feel *excited* about *Pride* in general. Like there's… accessibility is what we're gonna talk about, but hypothetically I have access to this thing that is so amazing that I never would have dreamt I would have had access to, blah blah blah. But, how in reality, sometimes I feel guilty critiquing different parts of Pride because I feel like I'm just supposed to be grateful for it

**Michael:** Right

**Nay:** But actually lots of Pride is inaccessible. *And* lots of Pride is shit I wouldn't wanna go to. Period. Like any time of the year

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm. Yeah

**Nay:** You know? And so, yeah, I think everybody during this Pride month, it's okay to just think about yourself and your needs

**Michael:** *Yes*

**Nay:** And what you need to have a happy Pride, or a happy life in general

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** Not just during Pride. But if you know that-- okay, so for me, things that come up, I'll be like, "Is there any kind of access information on these flyers?"

**Michael:** Right. I saw you tweet something about that, yeah

**Nay:** Yeah, like, because you know, I can go to your website, I can look on the website. But what is actually going to happen is I'm going to have to call someone. I'm going to have to call the bar…

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm

**Nay:** I'm gonna have to ask these questions. And actually, you should put that on your flyer

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** Because it's not even just a thing for disabled people, like, this information actually benefits *everybody.* Period

**Michael:** Right. Yeah. No matter who you are

**Nay:** Obviously the people who have access issues *are* the people most thinking about it. Which, although that makes sense, I don't think it's an excuse any more. I think we all, especially as party planners, as whatever, just period, whatever kind of job you have you should be thinking about this. And so, if you have a problem with a space and you're like, "Ugh, do I have to risk my own body or my own limits or be in pain or just not be able to go," you don't have to feel bad about that

**Michael:** We're so conditioned--

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** To like, not create waves or not to be quote-unquote "annoying", you know what I mean?

**Nay:** Oh, yeah! Absolutely

**Michael:** Like, "*Oh, I don't* wanna ask that. That's like, ugh, I'll keep quiet."

**Nay:** *Yeah*

**Michael:** And it's like, *no*, it's okay to ask for what you want

**Nay:** *Yeah*. And for-- ew, the LaCroix burp! Ew, God, I hate that so much

**Michael:** It wasn't me for once!

**Nay:** That's what my body needed to do right now, okay?

**Michael:** Yes it did

**Nay:** I know that we're taught that the more needs our bodies have the more annoying we are and the less we should ask for and the more we should try and take care of ourselves without bothering anybody. But the older I get, the more comfort and the more confidence I have in asking for those things

**Michael:** Yeah!

**Nay:** And checking in with myself when I start to feel bad about it and being like, "Would you feel bad if this building was just accessible from jump? Would you be thinking about your body, what it can and can't do in a way that negatively affects you *if* this building was accessible. Or if this flyer had the information."

**Michael:** Right

**Nay:** "Or if someone cared about that other than you, would you still feel badly about your body?" And I'm usually like, "No."

**Michael:** *Right*

**Nay:** I'm like, well, the problem isn't my body, you know?

**Michael:** It's not. And it must make you feel like, sometimes, right, like having to do all that work beforehand, you just go, "Fuck it. I don't wanna go anyway."

**Nay:** *Right.* "Fuck it. I don't wanna go anyway."

**Michael:** "I have to do all this work just to find out if I can go to something?"

**Nay:** "I have to do all this planning?" Yeah

**Michael:** Yeah, the Pride parade is amazing, Pride Month is amazing. But there's also, I don't know if it's being online or not, but you see things, that for me, I kind of get annoyed by, like the corporation of it

**Nay:** Oh yeah, of course

**Michael:** Like how it's like they're like, "Oh, we put a rainbow on our Twitter av, we did our deed for the month."

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** Or even some queer people think all they need to do is going to the Pride parade that year. And I'm like, well, true Pride is actually *helping* our community during the *other* 364 days of the year

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** Especially those who can't help themselves. So I go back and forth 'cause the parade route goes right by my place

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm, mmm-hmm

**Michael:** My street is open, but the block, the cross street that we live on is the staging area. And on my way here today, I took an Uber because I did not wanna lose my parking space--

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** Where my car is, so my Uber had to turn around by the staging area and I looked over and it was like, three banks, a law firm, and it's great. But at the same time I'm like, "Okay, maybe they're donating something and they're paying a fee to be in the parade so that money's going somewhere. But it's probably going to pay for the parade more than anything."

**Nay:** Right

**Michael:** And there was just no nothing local about it, it just felt so cold--

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** Seeing all that. And it's amazing, all these people are in their tshirts and it's a bunch of queer people probably from those businesses and they're like out and proud and stuff, but there's just something… I dunno, I just feel so conflicted as I get older because I see the good things but then I see the bad things and like sometimes I just wanna make the bad things go away so I can be like, "It's Pride! Enjoy it!"

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** But at the same time I'm like, "There's more to it than that."

**Nay:** Yeah. And well, sometimes I think it just feels like a slap in the face when you see what people are willing to spend their money on and what they're *not* willing to spend their money on. It's like, "*You* are down to pay lots of mon-- fifty, a hundred dollars to access these special Pride things, but would you even donate to a friend's top surgery fund if they were fundraising?"

**Michael:** Right. Or to the Youth Center

**Nay:** Yeah. "Do you…" Yeah, how is that, I dunno. Anyway, I'm not gonna get on another rant here

**Michael:** Yeah, I'm not here to judge anybody, but at the same time I feel like it's great, but then at the same time there's so many resources that this could go to instead

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** I dunno. Conflicted. It's probably just my old ass (laughs)

**Nay:** I mean, I *love*--

**Michael:** I love it! I've gone

**Nay:** Yeah, I love the--

**Michael:** The community

**Nay:** You know, I love the memes. I talk about this a lot, I think that memes are doing their job right now of reminding people of Pride's roots, you know?

**Michael:** Yes

**Nay:** And I think that's awesome, because I don't think *I* even knew that until a few years ago, you know?

**Michael:** Yeah, I learned a lot the last few years myself. And I saw a really great Twitter thread today because of the talk on Twitter about the corporate involvement in Pride--

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** And how you can tell the real honesty and integrity, like Fangoria for instance, decided at the last minute because they made that really funny, I don't know if you saw the "cancelled" portion of that meme, that Phil Nobile did

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** That was really, really funny. But because of the logo that he created for it, people were like, "I want that on a shirt!" So within twenty-four hours, they and Fright-Rags created an *actual* Pride shirt that they're selling for three days and *all* proceeds are going to AIDS Life/Cycle and you're just like, "Okay, that's like true allyship."

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** "Their heart is in a good place, they're not profiting off of it."

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** But then you see, you know, there's been a lot of talk about how YouTube slaps on a rainbow flag YouTube logo but they're actually like-- there's a big story going on right now with… Carlos Mazza, I believe, who's being completely bullied and treated like shit by this alt-right guy who is just saying all these awful things I don't want to repeat, and it took like two weeks to de-monetize this guy, because YouTube didn't want to lose the clicks, you know?

**Nay:** Right, right

**Michael:** So this woman, I don't know where she's out of, because of all that, she started just a Twitter thread of *local* places you could buy queer stuff or from queer people. Like, instead of thinking about corporations constantly, here's a list of places you can buy that are actually local, and I thought that was really cool

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** And that wouldn't have happened if the conversation hadn't gotten started

**Nay:** Right

**Michael:** So, that's what I try to think of. I try to go back to the *goodness* from-- when I go in my head and I'm like, "Nnnnyeh!" Bitching about Pride or anything like that--

**Nay:** Yeah, yeah

**Michael:** I find those things and it brings me back down to reality and I'm like, "This is a really great thing. Chill the fuck out, dude." (chuckles)

**Nay:** Right. Right. No, I think it's always okay to think about things in as many ways as possible

**Michael:** Yeah!

**Nay:** Like that's okay

**Michael:** It's a way to learn

**Nay:** And those conversations are okay, and I think it's like, if folks are out there and you're a big corporation and you slapped a rainbow on something, okay fine

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm

**Nay:** However, I wish they would also think about, "Do we support the queer people that *do* work here?"

**Michael:** Yeah. Do you support your queer employees all year-round?

**Nay:** "Do we make it the kind of workspace that is comfortable for people to be out and who they are in every realm of their life, etcetera." And then it's like, you started somewhere, let's take it somewhere else

**Michael:** Right

**Nay:** Sometimes I'm like, I don't want the critique to shut them down from doing it *again*--

**Michael:** *Yes*

**Nay:** But also, this is a 365 24/7 job--

**Michael:** Yes. Yep

**Nay:** As it is, to be, you know, queer, like whatever social identities intersect for you, that never leaves those people, so we need, I need literally more than rainbow toilet paper in June (chuckles)

**Michael:** Like a Twitter av in June or like, your Uber app to have a "rainbow road" for your travel that day

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** And it's like, "*Uhhhh*." (chuckles)

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** Watching anything good that we can add to Tea Time?

**Nay:** No, I'm still watching *Game of Thrones*

**(They both laugh)**

**Nay:** I *do* wanna say that I said last time that Khaleesi-- okay, first of all, who takes that long to introduce themselves? She's like, "I am Khaleesi, blank blank blank, Mother of Dragons, blank blank blank"

**Michael:** I love that you called her "the dragon bitch" (laughs)

**Nay:** That dragon bitch. But no one told me about Brianne of Tarth

**Michael:** I have never watched the show

**Nay:** *Oh my God,* I want to know more--

**Michael:** Is she the super super tall?

**Nay:** *Yes!*

**Michael:** I love her

**Nay:** I'm *obsessed!*

**Michael:** She was in season two of *Top of the Lake*, and she's so good in it

**Nay:** *Ohhhhh*!

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** Yeah, no. Ob. Sessed. No one told me! No one told me, and like, wow, I really was like, "Who am I? I *literally* want her to cut my fucking head off. Like, *please*. Just decapitate me. (laughing) I don't give a fuck!" (normal voice) Yeah. Amazing

**Michael:** "Do what you will with my literally severed head"?

**Nay:** Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Whatever you want. I don't care. And I just don't feel that way that often

**(They both laugh)**

**Michael:** So amazing

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** I watched a movie last night,.and I had some friends over and we watched-- there's like a group of my friends, and we watched, with Brian and our friends Chelsea and Mia, we've started this once a month, "Horror Roulette" we call it, and it's really fun. Mia's a huge horror fan, and Chelsea is a horror fan. She's not as die hard as Mia and myself, and I feel like Chelsea and Brian have like, a similar horror path, where they met me and they were forced to start watching horror movies

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm, mmm-hmmm

**Michael:** And they've slowly grown to love them and now Chelsea's like, "Let's go see everything in the theater!" Brian's not there yet. We'll get him there. But we do this "Horror Roulette" thing and what it is is we go to the Shudder app and then one person turns their back to the television and then the other person has the AppleTV remote and they just move it around--

**Nay:** Oh my God

**Michael:** And wherever they say, "Stop," we have to watch that movie. Isn't that really fun?

**Nay:** *Mmmmm!*

**Michael:** So we watched a movie last night and I don't know if I wanna say the title of it because I found it to be really problematic and I just didn't really care for it. So yeah, I kind of found it to be homophobic at times

**Nay:** *Damn!*

**Michael:** I was like, "Oh, this is a great way to celebrate Pride!" But I love Shudder

**Nay:** Yeah, me too

**Michael:** And I love the folks over there, so that's why, because it's a Shudder original so I don't really want to trash it

**Nay:** Mmmmm

**Michael:** And I realized like after, I know you guys said when we recorded *The Perfection*, like I remember leaving that recording and being like, "*Oh*, I feel like I just trash-talked a movie," and as a person involved in film myself, I don't wanna be that person that like, publicly shits on a movie. 'Cause I would do that in the past, and it just doesn't feel good. So I left that record feeling really bad and you guys were like, "You did okay."

**Nay:** Yeah. That's right

**Michael:** "You gave your opinion on the movie. You weren't mean or anything." But I feel like if I keep talking about this movie I might get to that mean point. So, I also watched a lot of *Beat Bobby Flay*

**Nay:** *Oh!*

**Michael:** I love cooking shows, and I love the Food Network so I watch a lot of those shows that are like, thirty minute competitions--

**Nay:** *Ohhhh*

**Michael:** That take no brainpower whatsoever except you just stare, so. I watched a lot of that this weekend

**Nay:** Wow. You and my Mom would--

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** Really get along, watching the--

**Michael:** DAB? (chuckles)

**Nay:** Yeah. If y'all just watched the Food Network, it could happen. Yeah

**Michael:** Brian's always like, "*Oh!* We're watching seven hours of this again." But I love to cook, so I learn a lot from those shows. Like I'll take little tricks that I see and do that in my cooking and stuff. And you've had my cooking

**Nay:** *My cutie-pie*! Yeah, it's good! It's good

**Michael:** So, I think that's it. I'm blanking

**Nay:** We've talked a lot

**Michael:** Yeah. And I saw *Ma*. Did I talk about that on the show?

**Nay:** No, *no*

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** I still haven't

**Michael:** Fun. Trash.

**Nay:** I can't wait

**Michael:** It was so trashy fun, it was like a really expensive Lifetime movie (chuckles)

**Nay:** *Nice!*

**Michael:** I had a blast

**Nay:** Oh, *sold!* Okay? (laughs)

**Michael:** Right? Octavia Spencer's *amazing*

**Nay:** Yes

**Michael:** She's so good, so committed

**Nay:** Yes

**Michael:** She's having the fucking time of her life in that movie

**Nay:** (softly) *Oh my God* *yes*

**Michael:** And I went and saw it at the Arclight opening weekend

**Nay:** Amazing

**Michael:** Theater was packed, and I wanna say it was probably eighty percent queer folks

**Nay:** *Jeez*

**Michael:** So *everyone* was going nuts. It was like one of those experiences in a theater where you actually *ask* people to participate--

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** And shout at the screen because it makes the experience better

**Nay:** Yeah. That's fun

**Michael:** And it was like that for the entire movie

**Nay:** That's so fun

**Michael:** Super fun. And this one guy stood up at the end, gave it a standing ovation, and you could tell it was partially genuine but partially sarcastic but he thoroughly enjoyed the movie

**Nay:** Showin' out, showin' out

**Michael:** He was two rows in front of me. Oh, it was amazing. It was amazing. It had an *amazing* cast. Allison Janney, Juliette Lewis, Luke Evans…

**Nay:** Cool

**Michael:** Octavia Spencer, the director's in it, Tate Taylor, who's a queer man. He directed it, wrote it and has a role in it

**Nay:** Amazing

**Michael:** So, yeah. It was super fun. I'm not gonna say run out and see it, but *do* catch it when it's on iTunes or Netflix or whatever, yeah

**Nay:** Yeah, I *do* wanna see it, for sure for sure

**Michael:** All right folks, we are discussing *When A Stranger Calls Back* and Ernie has a trailer for us

**(Ernie plays the trailer)**

**Michael:** I'm sorry, I'm letting this trailer play. I love it

**Nay:** It's so good!

**Michael:** So, your first time seeing it, right?

**Nay:** Yeah, it was

**Michael:** What did ya think?

**Nay:** You know, I… now I see how many people take inspiration from that

**Michael:** *Right?*

**Nay:** Yeah. I mean--

**Michael:** Have you seen the original?

**Nay:** No

**Michael:** Okay

**Nay:** I haven't seen that either

**Michael:** It's essentially the same type of--

**Nay:** *Or have I*?

**Michael:** Carol Kane, she's the babysitter in the original one

**Nay:** Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah

**Nay:** I just, would you keep talking to this person? Would you ever have answered?

**Michael:** That's a good question. I dunno. Because I look back to like-- how old do you think (Jill Schoelen) is supposed to be, like fifteen or sixteen?

**Nay:** Right

**Michael:** 'Cause it's five years later in college she talks about how she moved off-campus her freshman year and it's been like a year-and-a-half or something

**Nay:** Yeah, true

**Michael:** So I think she's fifteen or sixteen

**Nay:** No cell phones

**Michael:** No cell phones

**Nay:** No shit like that

**Michael:** And I wonder-- I was thinking about that while watching it and I was like, "Would I keep talking? Would I answer the door?" Because *I* was like, even as a teenager, if I was home alone, we had this door in our family room; we lived in a split-level house

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** So it was like partial basement, the bottom floor

**Nay:** You walk in and there's stairs to--

**Michael:** Yeah. Yeah.

**Nay:** I love that shit. Why do I love that?

**Michael:** Because it's so Brady-- it's not even *Brady Bunch*, I dunno, it's cute

**Nay:** When I was growing up, people with houses like that, I thought, I was like, "Oh, you're rich." And I know that that's probably not true, I used to think that about lots of things. I'd be like, "Oh, you have a freezer in the garage? You're rich!"

**Michael:** Yeah, I mean our house was like, B-sized. There was nine of us in a four bedroom house

**Nay:** *Jesus*

**Michael:** *Right?* One-and-a-half bath

**Nay:** *Damn*

**Michael:** But we had a door that accessed the outside there. And my Mom had curtains on it, but they were tied, so there was like a bow on each curtain--

**Nay:** Damn, mom doing it

**Michael:** OCD. You should've seen our house, she had nine kids, the house was always immaculately clean. And when they were gone… when I would watch TV in the family room, I would always feel like somebody was looking at me through that door and it would always *freak me the fuck out*

**Nay:** (sighing) *Damn*

**Michael:** So I would un-bow the curtains

**Nay:** Right

**Michael:** And then I would hear them pull up and I would tie them really fuckin' quick, and every time she would be like, "You messed with the curtains!" 'Cause the bow wasn't right. But it made me think back to that and how if somebody had knocked, I *probably* would have turned off all the lights in the house and hid *immediately*

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm, mmm-hmmm

**Michael:** Even if they knocked, but I dunno. But you're also like a teenager and you're supposed to respect everybody, so

**Nay:** True. That's true

**Michael:** Would you…? Knowing me I would've opened the fucking door and let 'em in the house and murdered me (laughs)

**Nay:** Oh *hell no*

**Michael:** What do you think you would have done?

**Nay:** I mean, I think I really wouldn't have answered at all

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** Like at all

**Michael:** Today you wouldn't

**Nay:** Oh, definitely today

**Michael:** Or I'd be like, super annoyed and, "Can you get off my deck?" (chuckles)

**Nay:** Yeah. If I'm not expecting someone, I will not answer the door

**Michael:** Remember the pop-in, though? Did you have popi-in time in your life at all?

**Nay:** "Pop-in"?

**Michael:** So when I was in college… it was kind of cell phone days and people would *pop-in*

**Nay:** Oh! (laughing) I was like--

**Michael:** Yeah, did you have…? I kind of miss the pop-in days

**Nay:** (laughs) Okay, Ernie stop laughing at me! (to Michael) I thought you were like telling me the name of like, a *product* of some kind. *Wow*. Pop-in

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** No. There is that small town, hometown feel--

**Michael:** Yeah, that doesn't happen any more

**Nay:** My family, we used to live across the street from each other or around the corner

**Michael:** Oh, no kidding! Okay

**Nay:** Yeah. Super close

**Michael:** So it was rotating?

**Nay:** My aunts, to this *day*, I can walk up to my aunts' house and just walk in the door like, "Y'all not really locking these doors yet?" In fact, one time when I was young I went to walk in the door and it kind of stuck a little bit and so I thought it was just swollen in the humidity--

**Michael:** They actually locked it?

**Nay:** And I just needed to *push it harder*

**Michael:** Uh-huh

**Nay:** They had actually locked it for some reason

**Michael:** Did you break the door?

**Nay:** *Yes!* *Yes! I did!* And they think it's hilarious, still

**Michael:** Of course!

**Nay:** Like, "Remember when you broke in?" The thing is, I was just very strong, you know? Just oddly strong. My Mom called me, "Herman Munster"

**Michael:** *Oh my God!*

**Nay:** Yeah, right?

**Michael:** "Thanks for the nickname!" (giggles)

**Nay:** But also, "Thanks, bitch!" Right. I'm like, "That's a bad bitch. I'm not worried about that. Call me Herman 'cause like, I will break you in half, you know?" And so--

**Michael:** That's how she sees you

**Nay:** Yeah. I'm a big strong bitch, I'm not worried about it. Like, you can call me anything honestly, because I'm still the big strong bitch

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm

**Nay:** Yeah, so I accidentally broke in, and yeah… I was like, "This door isn't locked."

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** Like, (chuckling) "There's no way *that's* what's happening."

**Michael:** *Yeah*

**Nay:** So yeah, I remember the pop-in

**Michael:** The pop-in days

**Nay:** But I guess now it's sometimes like when I'm near someone's house I'll just be like, "Hey, what're you doing?"

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** But I don't just go knock on their door

**Michael:** Yeah. If someone popped in *now*, I would be like, "(scoffs) *What the fuck*? You're totally interrupting my space. I wanted to do nothing today, you just show up at my house." That's probably how I'd be, even if it were like my best friend

**Nay:** *Wow*, Michael. *Wow*! (laughs)

**Michael:** Well, it's like everything's so… because of cell phones, everything's so structured that it interrupts your structure. At least for me

**Nay:** *Noted*

**Michael:** And like if I'm dead set on doing nothing on a Saturday afternoon and someone showed up at my house, I'm actually-- in all actuality I'd probably be really excited if someone showed up at my house I'd probably be very happy or excited, but there's a part of me that thinks I'd like, (sighs disappointedly)

**Nay:** Well, fine. No one will, now! (laughs)

**Michael:** Yeah, no. Thank you. (chuckles) But I don't even know what we were talking about

**Nay:** No, what we would have done… and yeah, people don't just show up

**Michael:** Yeah. 'Cause when I first watched the movie, I was in college and I was just so used to people knocking on our door all the time 'cause I lived with five other dudes

**Nay:** *Oh lord*

**Michael:** And it was college, so people were *always* over

**Nay:** Yeah. Just college people *do* pop-in

**Michael:** All the time. I used to do that to people *all the time*. I can't even tell you how many times I would pop over to someone's house and like two hours later we'd be *hammered*, 'cause you just showed up and there was beer in the fridge and you'd just start drinking

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** I wonder if that led to my alcohol problem ten years later?

**Michael:** So, I really love this movie

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** It has the same structure as the original. The original is, not to like, spoil it for you or anybody, but it's essentially the same setup: Carol Kane's babysitting but the calls are coming from inside the house, setup. But her kids she's babysitting are murdered

**Nay:** *Wow*. Okay

**Michael:** And then it's kind of like this same thing where the middle half of the movie is a procedural and John, the guy who comes in and helps her in this movie, is the guy who's the cop in that movie, just like a local cop

**Nay:** Gotcha

**Michael:** So he's tracing down, like tracking down this killer, so the structure of it is the exact same. But listening to that trailer, when it's condensed to like a minute-and-a-half, you realize it's a much deeper story and it's literally about how in reality a lot of the times, women only believe other women

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** Every single guy in that movie questions her

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm, mmm-hmmm

**Michael:** And it's such an interesting discussion because I have seen (*When A Stranger Calls Back*) probably twenty times and in the last year I've only really noticed some of these other unintentional or intentional themes, whatever they may be, come up

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** And it's such an interesting discussion and (Jill Schoelen's) performance has gone from me seeing this fifteen years ago ago to being kind of cheesy and comical, Julia's, to very soft and heartbreaking and *lonely* and terrorized

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** Like you can literally feel the *terror* of her day-to-day life

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm. Yeah

**Michael:** And I feel like it's almost essential viewing for people to kind of like-- *one*, 'cause it's an amazing movie, even though the middle portion is like a procedural, it's not a scary movie at that point. But it's just like, "Here. Watch this and see what women go through if you don't understand it already."

**Nay:** Yeah. Yeah. For real. There are so many people living with that kind of constant terror in their life

**Michael:** *Yeah*

**Nay:** I think definitely a lot of women, a lot of queer people, definitely a lot of femmes

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm

**Nay:** Stalking is definitely a problem

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** And with so many kinds of assault not being believed of course, is just (exhales)-- I mean, I would say for myself, maybe I can heal from the assault, but what I can't heal from all the time is people not believing me, loved ones not believing me. People gaslighting me

**Michael:** Screaming in a crowded room and no one hearing you, y'know?

**Nay:** Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And I guess it's just a really good reminder to folks of how powerful it can be to listen to someone and just believe them

**Michael:** Yeah. I actually cry, every time, as I've gotten older. Like this has gone from just like a scary movie to me to like, a really-- I love Carol Kane, I think she's such an amazing actor

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** And that scene where she talks about, like, it wasn't a harassment thing, two kids she was caring for were kidnapped and she almost died

**Nay:** Yes

**Michael:** Her explaining the minutiae of life is terrifying

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** To the point where you know how many fucking socks are in your drawer, because if it's been moved *an inch* you'll notice it

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm, mmm-hmmm

**Michael:** And I tear up whenever I listen to that, because her performance is so *fucking* amazing

**Nay:** Yes

**Michael:** And knowing the first movie, she's almost filling in her backstory in that moment, too

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm, true

**Michael:** And I dunno, it's just really powerful. And talking about like, I used to laugh as a younger person about, "You know how many matches are in the box next to your stove," 'cause just the thought of someone counting the matches, but as a person who I feel has finally matured in life and has a better understanding of other people's plights, like, you go, "*Fuck*. She literally probably does count how many matches are in her box next to her stove."

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** That's terrifying.

**Nay:** Yeah. I mean… I don't even know where to begin with that, because it's just so-- I just remember how important validation is and how we-- I think people sometimes are curious as to how folks can help people in a moment of crisis, or how they can de-escalate a situation when someone is kind of like peaking in a moment of terror or being scared or anxious or whatnot and it's like, honestly validating people's feelings is life-saving

**Michael:** Yeah. It *is*

**Nay:** So many times I have, you know, did a lot of years of crisis intervention and have seen nothing in that person's life circumstances change whatsoever except that someone was like, "Oh, it makes sense that you feel the way that you do."

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** So, the opening scene, like, is amazing. It's thirty minutes. It's super scary and yeah, I think Nineties horror totally *owes* that opening to like--

**Nay:** I totally see that. I couldn't-- when the first thirty minutes, I literally looked down to see how far in the movie it was, because I thought the movie was over. I was so satisfied

**Michael:** (laughs) It's like an amazing episode of television

**Nay:** I was *so*-- *Yes*. I was *so*-- I really thought to myself, "*Wow*, bitch. Did you really not look at your phone for a whole movie?" Because I was so into it. And I was like, "*There's no way*, *there's no way* that it's been an hour and a half." I just thit was that good.

**Michael:** Jill Schoelen, who's the actor in that opening scene, she's kind of an icon but I also know she didn't have the most illustrious career after her horror days, but she carries that whole thirty minutes. *She's by herself*!

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** Like the entire time! Literally talking to a voice

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** And, I dunno. It's structured perfectly 'cause it just gives you enough to keep you on the edge of your seat the entire time and it's just so fun

**Nay:** *Yes*. Because every single moment is *painful*. Her walking from the door to the phone…

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm, mmm-hmmm

**Nay:** Faking the phone calls

**Michael:** Oh my God, "Blah blah blah" (chuckles)

**Nay:** Yeah. All of that. I just know how *miserable* I would be trying to do all that and I could barely stand it, I could barely stand it

**Michael:** I watch it every time like, looking for him, in the house

**Nay:** (chuckles) Yeah

**Michael:** 'Cause like, I dunno. They do a really good job of just having the most obscure things in a room. Like that *giant plant* is behind her

**Nay:** Yes. Yeah

**Michael:** Like every time I watch the movie I'm like, "*Is he back there?*" 'Cause he's clearly gotta be in the house at some times, you know?

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** And I'm just like, "*Where is he?*" But I dunno. Even when she-- who knew looking through a notebook could be so scary? (chuckles)

**Nay:** Oh, wow. *Yeah*. Yeah, definitely

**Michael:** And the imprint of the writing on the next page is very clear, it's so great

**Nay:** *Yes!* Yeah, that was

**Michael:** So. Do you-- I know the first time I watched this, I was a little, not bored, but I was kind of bummed that the scares didn't continue for the next thirty minutes. How do you feel about that? 'Cause there is kind of like a turn into a CBS procedural (chuckles)

**Nay:** You know, I mean, I definitely had to readjust because I was like I said, I hadn't even looked at my phone

**Michael:** Uh-huh

**Nay:** But it does shift gears and I *do* love movies that center women not being believed and people wondering if they're crazy or someone else is, you know

**Michael:** Uh-huh

**Nay:** And so it's like I like both of those movies (laughs)

**Michael:** Yeah. Yeah. That's true. That's a good way to put it

**Nay:** I do like both. And I *definitely* was invested…

**Michael:** In her story?

**Nay:** In her story, so, yeah

**Michael:** And my friend Chelsea, I watched it with my friends Chelsea and Mia last week in preparation for the show and (Chelsea) had never seen it before. And she was telling *me* like she was *relieved* at that portion of the movie 'cause she was so tired

**Nay:** Yeah! *Oh, yeah!*

**Michael:** After watching the opening scene?

**Nay:** *Yes*

**Michael:** And it was hilarious to watch with her, 'cause Mia and I had seen it before, and she was reacting to every part I wanted her to react to

**Nay:**.Oh yeah. Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** *Mmm-hmm*! Yeah

**Nay:** It's *scary!*

**Michael:** It really is!

**Nay:** Home invasion stuff, it just fucks me up. Like it is so scary

**Michael:** And then that shadow

**Nay:** *Oh my God*

**Michael:** (chuckling) That shadow is so great!

**Nay:** Also I feel like I have so many dreams where I'm trying to run to a door and open it quick enough, or-- so that part where (Jill Schoelen) realizes that he is in the house--

**Michael:** That he is in the house, yeah. And she's got like, *four* locks to unlock?

**Nay:** *Oh my God!* But also, and something I think about in every movie, it took her a long time to secure the house

**Michael:** *Yeah*

**Nay:** And I know the level at which I'm at is indicative of my mental health, so I'm not telling everybody that this is what they should be doing. I would have checked all the locks as soon as the parents left

**Michael:** Exactly. Same.

**Nay:** Because I always know in my home what is locked and unlocked

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** I am somebody who checks locks a lot, I, yeah

**Michael:** Yeah, I have to have both locks on our doors locked before I go to bed or I won't go to sleep

**Nay:** Yeah. Oh Yeah

**Michael:** It's just a thing. Brian can lock the doorknob lock and he's fine, but I'm like, "Nope. Deadbolt's gotta go too."

**Nay:** Absolutely. "You know what? Let's put the furniture in front of the door just for good measure, okay? Like I'm really not tryna play with nobody." I would have checked it immediately. And so sometimes it's always shocking to me in movies, same as um, oh lord, why am I forgetting that movie that we covered?

**Michael:** Was it a home invasion movie?

**Nay:** No, but it's like she goes to the cabin to get away from her fan, *The Fan* (1980), duh

**Michael:** *The Fan*! Oh Yeah

**Nay:** And I'm like, "It took you this long to shut the blinds?"

**Michael:** Right

**Nay:** I can't relate to that

**Michael:** I can't either. I don't like sitting; like we live on the first floor, we have a big-- you've seen it, that big giant window in our living room

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** And the only reason those curtains aren't shut? Is because it's like six feet off the ground. If that was at the ground level? Those curtains would be fucking shut as soon as the sun goes down. Because for me, mentally, I can't

**Nay:** Mm-mmm

**Michael:** I always assume someone's staring at me

**Nay:** Yeah. This ain't a fishbowl

**Michael:** *Yeah* (giggles)

**Nay:** We're shuttin' that shit. But also, do you feel like sometimes the *richer* people get, the *less* curtains they have?

**Michael:** Like, what the fuck is that?!?

**Nay:** (chuckling).*What?*

**Michael:** You drive down, you drive through Highland Park, what is it, um, like over by Larchmont, you drive through that neighborhood

**Nay:** Oh, Hancock Park

**Michael:** Hancock Park. And it's just like, windows open, man

**Nay:** *Right*. No curtains

**Michael:** You showing off your couch?

**Nay:** No tapestries, okay? Showing off that, the formal living room?

**Michael:** You showing off that couch you don't let people sit in?

**Nay:** The *brand*? Yeah. I don't understand

**Michael:** I don't either

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** Also, I dunno, I just don't want people staring at me

**Nay:** I guess I go back and forth

**Michael:** To sound like an egotistical bitch (laughs)

**Nay:** Sometimes-- I relate to locks. I would *love* to not have curtains up, or whatever I guess and have bright sunshine-ness and whatnot

**Michael:** Uh-huh

**Nay:** But I do feel like I'm *not*-- I've been thinking about this more. I don't live on the first floor, so I'm not as worried about it, I don't think people can see directly into my room. But whenever I'm around my Mom, and she sees me changing in front of a window, she like flips the fuck out

**Michael:** Oh, really?

**Nay:** Like you know, I was just home with her a couple weeks ago. There's literally a tree, *no one* can see in her window. And she was like (as her Mom) "*Lindsay Renee*! *Get away from the window!*"

**Michael:** I like, do that all the time

**Nay:** I was like, "Mom, are you serious right now?"

**Michael:** Like change in front of open windows--

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** But if I'm clothed and it's nighttime, like, "The window's gotta be…"

**Nay:** *Right*. I'm like, "I don't give a fuck," you know?

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** And I guess that's some kind of incongruence because

**Michael:** Well, speaking of windows, later, when (Jill Schoelen) is in college and she lives on the third floor in her apartment, even then I'm like, "Girl, why have you got your windows wide open?"

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** "I know you got 'em locked and shit, but you don't have any curtains?"

**Nay:** Not enough

**Michael:** A.), it's right under your bed, right above your bed--

**Nay:** Blackout curtains, sweetie. Yes, no

**Michael:** So like, yeah, the *moon* would keep me awake. Just the light from the moon. But do you-- I always wonder though, watching this movie, what's the cost benefits of one way or another and did she think about this and is keeping them open a *positive* for her in some way? (chuckling) I can never figure out what it is. It's so she could see him?

**Nay:** I mean, that's true

**Michael:** You know? But she's also on the third floor

**Nay:** It could be that, you know, the art department, no one had been fucked with before, or something

**Michael:** Yeah (laughs)

**Nay:** They was like, "Well *of course* the windows are open!"

**Michael:** Yeah, I was like, "Girl. I would have those curtains *drawn*."

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** And I wouldn't have those sheer white ones that I think she has in the movie

**(They both laugh)**

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** But I love the relationship between (Jill Schoelen) and Jill

**Nay:** Yes

**Michael:** Sort of lesbian, like lesbian, right?

**Nay:** Yes. *I mean*. The way (Jill Schoelen) re-emerges, when you first see her in college

**Michael:** Mmmm!

**Nay:** I was like, "So she's gay now, right?" (chuckles)

**Michael:** Right. The plaid jacket, that hair…

**Nay:** (chuckling) The mullet

**Michael:** Oh my God. The mullet

**Nay:** I was living for every single thing

**Michael:** So (Jill Schoelen) walked on-screen when we were watching it and Chelsea kind of didn't realize it was her (chuckles)

**Nay:** Yeah! (giggles)

**Michael:** She's like, "Who *is that*?" I'm like, "That's Jill (Schoelen)!" She's like, "*What?*"

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** She goes, "Lesbian." And I'm like, "*Yeah*."

**Nay:** It's also like she takes off her lesbian coat and you see a--

**Michael and Nay**: Lesbian vest (They both laugh)

**Nay:** *Oh my God!!!* I was dying!

**Michael:** I was like, "She is a lesbian comedian circa 1987." I kept waiting for her to pull out a nightgown and be like, "Is this thing on?"

**Michael:** But whether (Jill Schoelen) is a lesbian or not, like if she's coded as a lesbian or not,  I totally identify with her loneliness--

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** Even without her terror

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** Thankfully I've never experienced anything like that, but you feel the terror and loneliness of being a queer youth--

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** I feel like my younger self is seen through the character of Julia, in that way

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** Would you agree, or?

**Nay:** I mean, yeah. I think about how isolating it is to be in some kind of abusive relationship. And so, I mean. a stalker is *beyond* abusive

**Michael:** It's beyond

**Nay:** But it's the same kind of thing where it's like so much of your life is devoted to this thing. It's like, whether it's how I'm walking to my job or how many matches are by my stove--

**Michael:** *Yes*

**Nay:** Or whether I have curtains or not--

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm

**Nay:** All these things--

**Michael:** Triple-bolted door

**Nay:** It's like, who could-- a triple-bolted door-- *who,* how many folks would stick around for their friend through that? And be like, "I know. I know. We gotta lock the doors. We gotta do this, we gotta do this."

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm

**Nay:** And it's like, of course people feel like a burden. And it's like half people believe and half people don't believe and even those that don't believe, it's like everybody has a point in which they start questioning people

**Michael:** Yes

**Nay:** And it's like (sighs) Yeah

**Michael:** Well, she even isolated herself from her parents

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** She stopped going home. It's like literally classes and her studio apartment

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** And it's like, even the studio apartment is such a choice 'cause she wants just a room

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** That she can see all four corners at all times, you know?

**Nay:** Yeah. *Oooof*. *God*

**Michael:** And just like the isolation. I know for me, as a younger gay boy, sometimes isolation was the only comfort

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** Because you knew at least no one was gonna harass you that day--

**Nay:** Absolutely

**Michael:** Or make you cry, you know what I mean?

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** It was better-- I would rather hide in my room sometimes than *be* in the world

**Nay:** Oh yeah

**Michael:** You know? And adding, like you said, a crazy stalker into that formula-- the moment that she finds that shirt in her closet…

**Nay:** Oh my God

**Michael:** It's just like, you could see it on her face

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** Even just the hand grab, they only show her hand grabbing the door--

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** I don't know, you just like-- it's a really good performance

**Nay:** Yes

**Michael:** And I think it's really well-written to the point where you identify with her and you're just like, "Shit!"

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** So, yeah. I mean even John doesn't believe her at times, you know?

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** Like when she's pouring her heart out at that coffeehouse, talking about disappearing, doesn't he say something kind of shitty to her there?

**Nay:** I can't remember exactly what he says

**Michael:** He says something like, "You can't let the past cave in on you." And she's like, "Bitch. The past *is* *caving* in on me!" (laughs)

**Nay:** (as Julia) "*Ideally*, I would agree with you. I don't really want this."

**Michael:** *Yes!*

**Nay:** (as Julia) "*But* that's real easy for you to say, asshole." (normal voice) Yeah. I think a lot of people find themselves needing to be alone in an effort… for protection

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm

**Nay:** I know I definitely did that as a young person. I think about a lot of times where I just had these different places, whether it was at the school or at church or you know, the farm or like, wherever that I knew I could just go alone and just be. Just be alone

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm. It's safe

**Nay:** It's like, no one makes fun of you, no one is fucking with you over there, go be alone

**Michael:** Well even Jill, like her character goes through a similar arc like I said, and her stalker-slash-killer that killed the kids that she was babysitting comes back for her at the end of the first movie, too, and she's married with children at that point

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** And I always, you know, watching it this time… I always find it weird when sequels kind of ignore the character's life in the previous movie. Like she's not married here, she never references her kids, those kind of things. But I honestly watching it this time, I felt like that's another portion of her backstory that's completely laid in without having to say anything

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm. Yeah

**Michael:** Like she maybe felt the same kind of way as Julia--

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** I don't wanna use the word "abandoned" because that implies that she did something wrong--

**Nay:** Right

**Michael:** But she probably left her family A.) to be alone, because being solo like we said is sometimes a safety thing, but also to keep *them* safe, you know what I mean?

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** So I find it really interesting that she's devoted her life to *other* people going through the same thing

**Nay:** Which I think people do

**Michael:** Yeah!

**Nay:** I think a lot of people who find themselves with this elevated level of empathy--

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm

**Nay:** Due to having their own traumas end up in these helping fields--

**Michael:** *Yes*

**Nay:** And I think, I did that as a young person. I thought it was really healing to help people the way I would have wanted to be helped, or treat people the way I would've wanted to be treated. I think unfortunately in the non-profit industrial complex, it's like that work is never sustainable 'cause you're never making enough money--

**Michael:** *Mmm-hmmm*. You can't afford to help people

**Nay:** You don't make enough to take care of yourself

**Michael:** (chuckling) Yeah

**Nay:** You're always one paycheck away from being homeless yourself and like (sighs) myself as a young person, I did not have the kind of *grip* on my own needs and mental health as I do now, and so *I was out here wildin' honey*, just like, just triggered right and left and compartmentalizing all of it and seeing really, *really* intense and graphic things and swallowing all of it and just feeling like I was such a good person for doing this work, and I think I got a lot of my self value from doing hard work for no money

**Michael:** Uh-huh

**Nay:** I don't know if it's Christian roots of being like, "Punish me! Because I'm a bad person deep down!" Or something

**Michael:** "I was born bad!"

**Nay:** Yeah. "Just whip me all day!" But *I*… what were we talking about? (laughs)

**Michael:** How people who go through trauma sometimes have a heightened sense of empathy

**Nay:** Oh, yeah. I think that people end up in those fields and it's like, as long as you do it, good for you, you know? It's not something that I found myself able to do for very long--

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm

**Nay:** For about seven years and that was about it

**Michael:** And that's a long time (chuckles)

**Nay:** And I think that I thought there was something wrong with me 'cause I couldn't keep doing it

**Michael:** There is not anything wrong

**Nay:** No. There's-- no. There is no question about that

**Michael:** But I get what you're saying, yeah

**Nay:** Yeah. I'm not surprised that that seems like a natural path

**Michael:** Well, I think it's like when Julia goes to the police and they're like, "Call someone from the Dean of Women's office. Everyone but Johnson."

**Nay:** Right

**Michael:** It's like, it's amazing how people can get annoyed by someone--

**Nay:** *Oh my God. Yes.*

**Michael:** Like diligently helping somebody, or maybe I should say militantly, because she is sort of militant about it

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm!

**Michael:** It's like, *what's wrong with that?!*

**Nay:** You know--

**Michael:** She's doin' twice the work so you don't have to do anything! (chuckles)

**Nay:** If you are advocating that hard for people, you're on everyone's nerves. Like, I promise you-- if you're walking into a police station and advocating for people the way they deserve to be advocated for, no one's gonna like you. Except the people you're helping

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm

**Nay:** Thassit. Like, just get used to that. And like I said, in last week's episode, you need a wild-ass white woman advocating for you. Let me tell you. (chortles) I don't mean white feminism, that's not what I mean. I mean period, someone who's gonna advocate for you at a level you wouldn't think to do for yourself. And obviously that's not just white women

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm

**Nay:** I don't know if y'all remember my jokes from last week about what's-her-name on the bus

**Michael:** Allison Williams

**Nay:** (laughing) Allison Williams, yeah, being like, "Pull this bus over!" I'm just saying, may we all have people in our lives who ask for things that we wouldn't ask for ourselves

**Michael:** *Yeah!*

**Nay:** Which is what we opened the episode with

**Michael:** Yes

**Nay:** Yes (chuckles)

**Michael:** People who-- there is a fine line between speaking for somebody out of turn, but also being an extension of them

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** And sometimes it's great to be an extension of a person… I do kind of love the moment where one cop, the older one of the group is kind of like, "That guy is still running around in her mind. That's for sure." Even that little bit of empathy, to me that read as empathetic because the other cops are just kind of writing her off and he's like, "*Clearly* this guy is still messing with her, whether it's in her mind or not."

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** He felt, I don't wanna say, sorry for her, but he kind of identified with her, or am I wrong? Or am I reading it the wrong way?

**Nay:** I think at the very least…

**Michael:** He sees her a little bit

**Nay:** It's like, it's not enough for people to be like, "I at least believe that you believe that." (chuckles)

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm. True

**Nay:** That's not enough! However, I'll take it!

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** Well, I have to. We have to take it

**Michael:** (chuckles) Like it's the only thing you're offering me?

**Nay:** At least, at least if you're acknowledging that this person is genuinely tormented--

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm

**Nay:** That, there's some ground there for us to move forward from. I get triggered personally when someone says something about something being in my mind

**Michael:** That's true. And he does say "running around in her mind" yeah

**Nay:** 'Cause I'm like, "Oh, you think it's not real."

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** Or like, "Oh, you think that whatever I'm thinking is distorted or something."

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm. Like, "he's living in her head"?

**Nay:** You know?

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** But I-- it is, it's a little something to work with

**Michael:** Yeah, it's a little something. And I always take his, I always think the way he chooses to say it as sympathy more than… not an attack, but like a, "This is *her problem*," you know what I mean?

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** But then Jill goes into her mini-monologue that I'm always here for

**Nay:** Obsessed

**Michael:** I'm obsessed with it

**Nay:** But you know, this stalker…

**Michael:** Yeah, let's talk about him!

**Nay:** *Why did* he look like that? *Why?* I can't. Whose decision was this? Why are you?

**Michael:** Oh! When he's in the nightclub?

**Nay:** Yes!

**Michael:** Yes!

**Nay:** I'm-- you know?

**Michael:** My friend Chelsea was like, "Wait. Is that? He's got…" (chuckles)

**Nay:** The thing is, folks, we're talking about blackface if you're lost

**Michael:** Yes.  He's covered in black

**Nay:** I don't care if you want to say something is not blackface. Basically if anyone ever thinks something is blackface don't do it. I don't care if it's your coffee mask that you're using yo energize your skin, I don't care *what it is*

**Michael:** *Right*

**Nay:** Don't post it on social media

**Michael:** *Right*

**Nay:** The *slightest* tinge of anything that makes me think that something could possibly even be blackface is too much to me

**Michael:** Well that's the thing I was gonna say. If you think it is, it probably is. If it enters your mind…

**Nay:** Like I understand when people can approach something and be like, "That's not that, everyone."

**Michael:** "It's performance art."

**Nay:** I hear you. But back *way* the fuck up and *read something* and then was that shit off. Okay?

**Michael:** Also, chances are you know he's a psycho stalker

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** This black paint's probably not coming from a good place

**(They both laugh)**

**Nay:** (sing-song) *I can't*!

**Michael:** It's really interesting 'cause that scene is just so stupid

**Nay:** (snickers) I can't! *I can't*! All of it's miserable. First of all, going to that event anyway

**Michael:** And the four rich white people? I always laugh because I'm like it's three asshole men and then their female mascot is with them

**Nay:** (laughs) Oh my God

**Michael:** Like, why are they there? Is it like, "Let's go mingle among the poors"? Is that the motivation? I want the Ivanka Trump story placed on them. (chuckles) What *is that*?

**Nay:** I dunno. It's like, "Honey let's leave our house with no curtains and go hang out with…"

**Michael:** "Put on your sequined dress. I'm gonna put on my tux and we're gonna go to a topless open mic night in the poor neighborhood."

**Nay:** Oh, wow. Yeah

**Michael:** It's just such-- and they come in a limo

**Nay:** Burn it all down. Burn it down

**Michael:** And then she's completely offended within the first three minutes and the three men are just like, "What?"

**Nay:** (chuckling) Yeah

**Michael:** The third guy is literally still sitting at the table while everyone else is leaving. Did you notice that?

**Nay:** No

**Michael:** He finally realizes they're all gone

**(They both chuckle)**

**Michael:** Because they're both drinking their fucking champagne, too! It is like a tiny mini social commentary wrapped up in two minutes. It's pretty great, you know?

**Nay:** Yeah. It's true

**Michael:** Yeah. That guy Fred Walton, he wrote and directed the movie, both (*When a Stranger Calls* and *When a Stranger Calls Back*) and he did-- did you ever see *April Fool's Day* (198X)? The slasher from the Eighties?

**Nay:** Yes

**Michael:** He did that. If you listen to his interviews and stuff, he's like a really smart, really genuinely good person

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** He looks like a friendly man, so I always find it interesting when the likes of like, him, or Wes Craven would make these type of movies--

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** 'Cause you expect-- a lot of the times you place the content on the creator and think they've gotta be this otherworldly disgusting human being

**Nay:** Right

**Michael:** And it's like, *no!* Wes Craven was just a friendly old man

**Nay:** Right

**Michael:** A very smart old man, and Fred Walton's kind of the same way. Like very, I don't wanna say prim and proper, but like button-up shirt, really smart. So I know listening to interviews and knowing a bit about him as a director, he totally was doing a little bit of commentary there for those hundred and twenty seconds

**Nay:** Wow

**Michael:** Yeah. (chuckles) Facts

**Nay:** Facts

**Michael:** But that leads to the killer's weird power, which is to blend into darkness, or like into walls

**Nay:** Yeah (laughs)

**Michael:** I love it, but at the same time I'm like, "What a lot of work," you know?

**Nay:** Honestly

**Michael:** (chuckling) I guess he's dedicated

**Nay:** I'm like, if you could just channel that somewhere else--

**Michael:** To art?

**Nay:** 'Cause you're an artist, boy

**(They both laugh)**

**Nay:** You're an artist. You need a YouTube channel, okay? Let's monetize this (laughs)

**Michael:** Or an Etsy store

**(They both laugh)**

**Nay:** An Instagram would be poppin'

**Michael:** If he did that today, he could just do that. Take pictures, post it on Instagram

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** The whole goal is like, you as a viewer have to find him

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** And he'd make a *killing*!

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm!

**Michael:** (sotto voce) God, I should do that. (normal voice) That's some talent

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** 'Cause taking Polaroids, matching the Polaroid on your body, but in reverse because you're doing it in a mirror--

**Nay:** Okay, Michael

**(They both laugh)**

**Michael:** But it works for me

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** At the end, it's creepy as hell!

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** And I love that he's in a thong while he's doing it

**Nay:** Yeah!

**Michael:** Yeah, gimme some more of that.

**Michael:** But, I dunno. There's not a lot going on in this movie, I feel like. But I do love the scene where John goes to his apartment--

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** And the neighbor nextdoor is like, "He came to find the mother"

**Nay:** Yes

**Michael:** Creepy, right?

**Nay:** Yes

**Michael:** And there's a pay phone, too (chuckles)

**Nay:** Right. 'Cause what year was this?

**Michael:** Ninety-three

**Nay:** Ninety-three

**Michael:** It came out in Ninety-three. It was actually a Showtime original film.

**Nay:** Oh, that's right!

**Michael:** It wasn't a theatrical sequel

**Nay:** I saw that

**Michael:** It was a Showtime original

**Nay:** Showtime in 1993, ooooh-wee

**Michael:** Right?

**Nay:** When we would get a free weekend. We didn't always have cable--

**Michael:** Uh-huh. You got the free weekend?

**Nay:** If there happened to be cable and we got the free weekend of Showtime?

**Michael:** Uh-huh

**Nay:** Oh my God. I would be so happy

**Michael:** Glued

**Nay:** Because maybe I'll see a titty (laughs)

**Michael:** Yeah. And I would not tell my parents

**Nay:** Oh yeah!

**Michael:** Because they would immediately--

**Nay:** Oh, of course!

**Michael:** Like, they blocked MTV in our house. Literally, it was back in the days where you'd have to call the cable company

**Nay:** Right

**Michael:** And be like, "Can you lock this channel?"

**Nay:** Yes. Yes

**Michael:** And they did this with MTV

**Nay:** *Wow*. I'm not telling 'em

**Michael:** So whenever there was free Showtime? Hell no

**Nay:** Mmm-mmm

**Michael:** I used to watch it when it was scrambled to see if I could see like, a titty or a butt

**Nay:** Oh yeah. In like the negative (chuckles) it'd be like neon pink and yellow and shit? (laughs)

**Michael:** Yeah, in like the beginning of *American Pie*

**Nay:** Yes

**Michael:** When he's jerking off to that? (giggles)

**Nay:** Yes. That's exactly what-- I needed that

**Michael:** And you could hear it crystal clear

**Nay:** *Oh yeah*. You could hear it. You could hear it. Which always, there was a lot of it, so yeah

**Michael:** So. Anything else you wanna discuss on the movie? I mean I think we covered a lot of things and stuff

**Nay:** I don't think so

**Michael:** I like the way it ends

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** 'Cause I feel like they're gonna live happily ever after together, right?

**Nay:** Yes. Yes.

**Michael:** At least as-- even if they're not coded lesbian, I feel like they'll be companions

**Nay:** It's still like a queering, and I don't just throw around the word "queer" and I definitely don't let people who aren't queer be like, "I'm queer because I do this thing."

**Michael:** Right

**Nay:** But it's a queering of relationship styles--

**Michael:** *Yes*

**Nay:** In that if we all could uphold platonic intimacy and our relationships--

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm

**Nay:** With people that we aren't fucking in a kind of high regard where it's like, "We're gonna heal together."

**Michael:** *Yeah!*

**Nay:** "And spend the rest of our lives together."

**Michael:** "We don't need to have sex in order to do this."

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** "We don't have to be romantic sexual partners to take care of each other when one of us shoots ourselves in the head," you know what I mean?

**Michael:** *Right*.

**Michael:** Now, do you think she *did* shoot herself? I think it was him

**Nay:** Oh yeah. I think it was him. But you know, I mean, when they gave her, when she got the gun--

**Michael:** I was like, "This is a horrible mistake." (giggles)

**Nay:** I was like, "This is a mistake."

**Michael:** *Yes!*

**Nay:** Not just… well, because most people who get the gun usually get harmed themselves, period.

**Michael:** Well yes, in reality

**Nay:** Yes. And I'm just like, the kind of, the place where *I would be*, with my mental health if I were in her situation--

**Michael:** "Do not give me a weapon."

**Nay:** Don't give me a gun! I won't even have a gun for myself as it is *now*

**Michael:** Right

**Nay:** And I think that's learning about the world through crisis intervention. Guns are so lethal

**Michael:** It's not a tool she can heal with either, you know what I mean?

**Nay:** No. No. Yeah

**Michael:** All it does is actually kind of add to the paranoia--

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** 'Cause now she has to think about, "What if I have to use this thing?"

**Nay:** Yeah, no, the gun, it's just-- this thing is not a joke or a game. It immediately escalates every single situation that it is in

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm, mmm-hmm

**Nay:** And it's very powerful and it usually works

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** So it's like--

**Michael:** Well, and Jill is a therapist

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** She works in crisis intervention and self-defense and I'm just thinking to myself, "Jill, that money you're spending? Get her like two counseling sessions."

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** "And then try to figure out how to get her two more after this."

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** "Buy her a new jacket. Get her another lock on her door!"

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** "Don't get her a gun!" Like that scene where she's literally writing in her journal and then (the gun's) sitting at the kitchen table with her--

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** It's just like, "*Fuck*"

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** It's just, I dunno (chuckles) bad decision. Why not give her a bomb?

**Nay:** Pay for a security guard to hold the gun, okay?

**Michael:** Oh, good idea!

**Nay:** Like, six, seven, eight of 'em. How 'bout that? Set up community watch to be here for me, how 'bout that?

**Michael:** Well, I love that Jill does make several mistakes, like when they go and visit the house that (Julia) was babysitting at. (Jill's) like, "I told her not to go back to her apartment!" It's like, "Why did you leave her alone in your place if you were concerned for her?"

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** "Doing something that (Julia) may harm herself. *After* (Jill) got her the gun."

**Nay:** Yeah. "You got her the gun."

**Michael:** I actually watched (*Sleepaway Camp*) this weekend. I texted you about that last night, didn't I?

**Nay:** Yeah, you did

**Michael:** (giggles) That movie is *so mean!* They're just so mean to each other

**Michael:** Before Horror Roulette, I always make dinner. So we were eating dinner and (*Sleepaway Camp*) was playing in the background and one of my friends had never seen it

**Nay:** Oh my God

**Michael:** So every few minutes she would turn to the TV and you'd catch her and she'd be like, "*What the fuck is this?!*"

**Nay:** Oh my God, my baby Angela

**Michael:** She is

**Nay:** That's my favorite person to have ever existed in a horror movie

**Michael:** BJ Colangelo just wrote a really cool article for Dread Central about *Sleepaway Camp*

**Nay:** Oh cool. I've gotta check that out

**Michael:** And they had her as a special editorial for Pride Month

**Nay:** Oh, awesome!

**Michael:** So you should check it out, and if you're listening and haven't read it yet, you should check it out. It's on DreadCentral.com and she talks about the problematic themes of *Sleepaway Camp* but she also-- BJ's so smart

**Nay:** Right

**Michael:** And I can't put it as eloquently as she did, but she takes the problematic themes and actually finds the goodness in the film from a queer perspective. It's just a really great take, and I really enjoy reading her work

**Nay:** Oh yeah

**Nay:** I don't care if anyone comes (to the live show)

**Michael:** If it's just us, Sam, Brennan and Ernie

**Nay:** Yeah, that's fine

**Michael:** And then like a *dark and empty* theater? Cool

**Nay:** Yeah. Still sounds cool. I'm so excited

**Nay:** Michael and I talked last night about since, you know, we made *Sleepaway Camp* do community service, we'd like to have-- if you show up to the live show, we want people to bring some toiletries

**Michael:** Yes

**Nay:** Some unused, new toiletries. We're talking about soaps, razors, shampoos, conditioners

**Michael:** Toothpastes

**Nay:** If you grab stuff at hotels and don't use them, even that kind of stuff

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm

**Nay:** And we'd like to donate it to the Youth Center on Highland

**Michael:** Yeah! That'd be great

**Nay:** Because they provide lots of hygiene services for homeless youth and those kind of things make a really big impact in how much money they have to spend to do that, so

**Michael:** Yeah. If you think of anything you need in your DAP kit or your diddy bag or whatever you call it when you're traveling, think of those items and bring them

**Nay:** Yeah. Literally, shaving cream, anything

**Michael:** Deodorant

**Nay:** Deodorant. Yeah

**Michael:** Q-tips

**Nay:** Q-tips.

**Michael:** Yeah, anything. Floss, dental floss

**Nay:** And or unused socks

**Michael:** I was just gonna say socks. And *new* underwear

**Nay:** And new underwear. Yeah

**Michael:** No used of either

**Nay:** No

**Michael:** But those are-- we're in summer, but socks are such a big thing

**Nay:** Huge. Just having clean socks is a big deal

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** And they go through a lot of socks at the Youth Center

**Michael:** A lot of socks. And they need socks of all sizes

**Nay:** Yes. So that's something we'd like to happen, for sure

**Michael:** And any bit helps

**Nay:** Any bit helps! Yeah, seriously

**Michael:** If you show up with like, a travel sized toothpaste and it's just the one? We'll take it

**Nay:** Yeah, absolutely. *Yes*. Good point. Seriously, you're like, "Oh, I have *one* toothbrush in a package." Perfect!

**Michael:** And it's in your house and you've done nothing with it for two years? Just bring it to one of us

**Nay:** Yeah. That would be awesome

**Michael:** Yes. Great idea, Nay.