Eating Chocolate

(28th March 2021)

* opening music\*

Liz

Hello and welcome to Bread and Thread, a podcast about food and domestic history. I’m Liz

Hazel

And I’m Hazel. We are two friends who studied archaeology together and love history, especially domestic history, as much as we love making things and trying things out. So what have you been up to?

Liz

I bought a kilo of honey today

Hazel

That is certainly an acquisition! What are you going to do with a kilo of honey?

Liz

Well, after the success of making beer, we’ve decided we’re gonna try and make blueberry mead

Hazel

Oh my goodness. I suspected mead but like, blueberry mead? Wow

Liz

Yeah we have a lot of blueberries at the moment. I’m not sure how we ended up with, like, multiple bags of blueberries

Hazel

Presumably they came from somewhere

Liz

Yeah, like, we were probably going to do a crumble or something and then just didn’t, so blueberry mead why not?

Hazel

Yeah why not, that sounds delicious

Liz

Especially since there’s a chance of being able to go to a folk thing in the summer, so starting mead now means that it’ll be ready then

Hazel

It’s mead in hope

Liz

It is

Hazel

Well I hope you will save some for me

Liz

Oh obviously

Hazel

Amazing

Liz

What have you been up to?

Hazel

Well my apple dying came out quite well I think. So I was experimenting with different kinds of natural dyes, and a few weeks ago we pruned our apple trees, and so I stripped the bark off the prunings because you can dye with that. You can also dye with the leaves of the apple tree but we don’t have leaves right now. So the bark, the bark comes out several different colours depending on how you modify it, apparently, but I just did the standard one, and you don’t need to use a mordant, or any fixative, because of the tannins in the bark, apparently act as a mordant, which is cool

Liz

Ooh

Hazel

Yeah, and it comes out orange. So I dyed a piece of cotton, fairly big piece of cotton, so like enough for...I think I’m gonna make a skirt, and it’s...it came out a really nice like peachy colour which, yeah I really like it, I’m just excited that it worked

Liz

That is very cool

Hazel

Yeah it feels like being a witch with magic potions like cooking things up in a cauldron...except I don’t have a cauldron so it’s a saucepan, which is not quite as exciting but still

Liz

I mean what is a saucepan if not a small cauldron

Hazel

That is true, and I feel like any good magic potion would be improved with use of an electric hob

Liz

Definitely

Hazel

But yeah that was really cool. It did not smell great, let me tell you that. I kind of didn’t realise how...the kind of odours that might arise when you boil plant materials, which now that I say that sounds obvious but…

Liz

I mean there is a reason these sorts of trades were often pushed outside the city walls

Hazel

Yeah I think we discussed that in the tyrian purple episode, yeah, dying was often one of the smellier trades

Liz

Yeah it’s like, them and tanners “just go over there, and we’ll be over here”

Hazel

“Thank you very much, you’re doing good work, but don’t come over here.” Yeah so that’s kind of a success, I think. I’m making biscotti tonight

Liz

Oooh

Hazel

This time I’ll try not to overbake it like I did last time and end up with too much crunch

Liz

I mean that’s impressive given the normal texture of biscotti

Hazel

Yeah I know it is supposed to be crunch central but like, I feel I somehow managed to make it, I don’t know, it was a slight danger to teeth

Liz

So, I believe you are continuing our theme from last time

Hazel

Yeah, indeed. So moving on from chocolate drinks, which is what Liz talked about last time, I’m gonna be talking about solid chocolate, so like chocolate bars and in other forms. Yeah so these are a later invention. So as Liz said in the last episode, for much of its history of being consumed chocolate was a drink, and it didn’t become used in bars until the first half of the 19th century, so this is starting fairly late in the history, so I’m gonna kind of pick up where you left...I guess not where you left off, you gave history of stuff up to the present day, but, yeah, if you wanna know…

Liz

We’re in chocolate houses times

Hazel

Yeah so if you wanna know like, the exciting ancient history stuff, go back and listen to the last episode. I am gonna pick up from the 19th century. So at this point chocolate is quite popular in Europe and in North America as well, and you got cocoa houses where people can go to drink chocolate, and chocolate is also being mixed with milk and sugar at this point as well to make it taste nice

Liz

And all sorts of other weird stuff. Again, listen to the last episode

Hazel

* laughs\* Yeah. So people have figured out that adding sugar to the chocolate drink makes it taste delicious, but it wasn’t until 1847 the first chocolate bar was invented, but this was made possible by an invention in 1828 called the chocolate press, invented in Amsterdam in 1828. This does exactly what it says, it would ex...it would press the chocolate beans - the cocoa beans - and extract the cocoa butter from the beans

Liz

Oh yes, that’s the good stuff

Hazel

Yes the good stuff. The natural, the fat that was in the cocoa beans. It would extract that, and it would leave cocoa powder, the fine, powdered beans, and this meant that, well a) it meant that cocoa powder could not be used in baking, and also chocolate, which was previously more of a high class thing, now was more affordable, because you could buy cocoa powder and you didn’t have to have all this fancy like, chocolate making stuff, you could just take the powder and mix it with water or mix it with milk. But then also it meant that the fat could be recombined into the chocolate water, and at a measured amount, to sort of smooth out the texture.

So that created the conditions - this is very dramatic - created the conditions for the first chocolate bar. So, this was in the 1840s, a time when the price of sugar was lowering, and there was increasing competition between the confectionary companies, so everyone is trying to invent something new, get something new out, and then also people are really getting in on this whole chocolate thing being that it’s now much more popular as a drink, and so more cocoa beans around in Europe. And so…

Liz

Yeah ‘cause we’re full industrial revolution at this point aren’t we

Hazel

Yeah

Liz

So it’s like “how can I get rich from making the same thing over and over again

Hazel

Yeah pretty much “how can I transform this chocolate drink that everybody loves into an edible product, like, something you can carry around with you and eat?” and Fry’s, the British company Fry and Sons, achieved this in 1847, when they recombined the cocoa butter and the chocolate liqueur, which is apparently what the chocolate-water mix is called, with sugar and put it in molds to set, and that was like the first edible chocolate bar. And it was kind of a dark chocolate type situation

Liz

Mmm

Hazel

Milk chocolate didn’t come into it until 1875 when…

Liz

That is a longer gap than I would have thought

Hazel

It is, yeah. It’s a while, you would have thought, but

Liz

‘Cause people would be used to having it with milk presumably, from drinking it

Hazel

Yeah people were drinking it with milk. I’m not sure exactly why but I think it’s something to do with, I think it’s more difficult to combine the milk with the heat and have it set

Liz

That makes sense, because milk is temperamental, isn’t it, when you’re heating it

Hazel

Yeah because when the first milk chocolate was developed it was using condensed milk, so I think it has to do with the milk conditions. So, yeah it was a Swiss confectioner, Samuel Peter, who made the first chocolate bar, using condensed milk, and so that kind of makes the chocolate sweeter I guess I mean, like the difference between dark and milk chocolate

Liz

And especially if you’re using condensed milk ‘cause that stuff is quite sweet isn’t it

Hazel

Oh yeah definitely. Yeah so it makes the chocolate a lot sweeter, so now you have dark chocolate and milk chocolate. Yeah so Fry’s also actually invented the Easter egg, and that in 1873, so before the milk chocolate, but again, now that edible chocolate was a thing, obviously everyone’s getting in on it. And not too long after the invention of the solid chocolate bar there was actually quite a lot of variety available, like all of the confectionary companies basically just wentto make a chocolate Easter egg, and as we know that really caught on

Liz

Yeah, I ate one today

Hazel

Oh, amazing, what kind

Liz

Cadbury’s twirl

Hazel

Yum!

Liz “this is gonna be big, we need to get some of this chocolate pie

Liz

Ooh chocolate pie

Hazel

Chocolate pie...And so Fry’s, now needing an edge, had this idea to do with Easter, so people had been decorating eggs at Easter for centuries, it was a very popular tradition, but Fry’s were the first

Oddly relevant for Fry’s because I think they bought Fry’s at one point didn’t they?

Hazel

They did! In fact that is what I’m gonna mention next

Liz

Sorry

Hazel

Because after Fry’s merged with Cadbury’s, they ramped up, well Cadbury ramped up Easter egg production, they made a bunch of different kinds. And then it really took off going into the early 20th century and, yeah, I guess the rest is history, it really did become super popular. Yeah so within, like, 50 years after the invention of the solid chocolate bar, almost all these many kinds of chocolate you could get, and going into the early 20th century yeah it just, it was a lot more affordable and there were so many different kinds, and it became like, yeah I guess the go to if you want to give a present to someone or if you’re a bit sad, or you’re really happy. Just whenever, chocolate is there for you

Liz

It is, it’s a friend

Hazel

It is, it is a friend. Yeah, so interestingly milk chocolate has kind of been the most popular, historically. Dark chocolate is now becoming more popular because it’s marketed as being better for you, ‘cause it’s not mixed with as much sugar and milk, in fact dark chocolate is produced with more cocoa solids, so usually contains like 50% or more cocoa solids, and it’s mixed...there’s no milk in usually, you use the cocoa butter as the fat content so yeah, it’s obviously a lot less, still sweet but less sweet than milk chocolate.

Which in the EU, under EU regulations, and product labelled as milk chocolate must contain at least 25% cocoa solids, however it was agreed in 2000 that the UK, Ireland, and Malta can go down to 20% in any milk chocolate product, whereas in the EU anything under 25% is apparently normally labelled as “family milk chocolate”

Liz

How odd!

Hazel

Yeah, I don’t know why

Liz

‘Cause I’ve seen bars that say like, “chocolate flavoured candy bar” and stuff like that, mostly US imports which have less cocoa

(crosstalk)

Liz

They always taste kind of like...like bad advent calendar chocolate?

Hazel

I know what you mean, yeah. It’s in a lot of products here as well, things like really cheap chocolate chip cookies and stuff that’ll say “contains chocolate flavour pieces” or something, and I think that means that it’s got a bit of cocoa in it but not enough that it counts

Liz

Less than 20% presumably

Hazel

Yeah. In the US it’s 10% that you can still label it chocolate

Liz

And that’s why their chocolate is worse

Hazel

(laughs) Controversial statement! I don’t want to start a transatlantic chocolate war on this podcast because I know Hershey’s is…

Liz

I know we have a Canadian patron. If you know- if you know what the rules on cocoa amount are in Canada are, I’m intrigued, let me know

Hazel

That would be interesting, ‘cause I know that Hershey’s chocolate has a particular taste and that a lot of people really like so I’m...I’m not going to weigh in on this one

Liz

I just have strong chocolate opinions

Hazel

Yeah, I mean I’m sure a lot of people do. White chocolate however contains cocoa butter but no cocoa solids, therefore making it not actually technically chocolate. There you go

Liz

That’s another controversial chocolate thing that though isn’t it, white chocolate

Hazel

It is, it is. I mean technically there is part of the cocoa bean in it, but it’s not chocolate

Liz

I mean there’s also part of the cocoa bean in like, moisturisers, so you’ve got to draw the line somewhere

Hazel

That’s true. Yeah so, I mean I like white chocolate in moderation but I dunno I’ve never felt the urge to eat an entire bar of it really

Liz

I think I only like it as like...I like white hot chocolate, but I wouldn’t just eat a milky bar

Hazel

Ok. Yeah. I mean I...let us know if our controversial chocolate opinions…

Liz

I mean I know Nick’ll disagree because Nick loves white chocolate

Hazel

Awesome, ok well tweet your unpopular chocolate opinions at us and let us know. Oh! And in 2017 ruby chocolate appeared. So that’s made from the red cocoa bean and it apparently has like a, quite a distinctive taste as well. I didn’t know that existed before

Liz

It does have...it has like a deeper flavour to it

Hazel

Have you tried it?

Liz

I’ve had it again in hot chocolate form

Hazel

Ok

Liz

Because, I think it’s Costa, the last couple of winters has done ruby hot chocolate

Hazel

Ah, interesting

Liz

And you get...I wouldn’t immediately place it as chocolate, but it is very nice

Hazel

Ok, I really want to try this now. I think maybe there’s a hot chocolate place in Rye, like the only thing they sell is hot chocolate, and they have a lot of different kinds. It’s like a fancy coffee house except for chocolate

Liz

You have a cocoa house near you

Hazel

There is a cocoa house in Rye, it’s amazing, and I wonder if they have ruby chocolate. I’m gonna try that, hopefully, you know, in the after times

Liz

Yeah

Hazel

When we’re allowed to go places again

Liz

Soon? Maybe?

Hazel

Soon, question mark?

Liz

Like, if all goes well, within a couple of weeks of this episode going out

Hazel

We hope. Yeah. Anyway, ok, so I am going to end on a fairly light note, but before I do that I am going to go a little bit heavy, because I couldn’t do a whole episode on chocolate bars and not mention some of the less sweet things about the chocolate industry, shall we say. So, yeah, you might have heard about this recently because Nestlé, one of the biggest multinational companies in the world, is currently being investigated, among other companies including Hershey’s and Mondelez, but is currently being sued, actually, for aiding and abetting the illegal enslavement of children on cocoa farms in their supply chains.

Yeah so they’re currently investigated- being investigated for that and there is a lawsuit being made against them by the human rights firm International Rights Advocates on behalf of eight former child slaves who, yeah, who say that they were forced to work without pay on cocoa plantations on the Ivory Coast, which as of 2015 produced ⅖ of the world’s cocoa beans

Liz

Wow!

Hazel

Yep, that’s a lot, apparently the- West Africa is currently the center of chocolate production, or like, chocolate growing in the world, so where Central and South America was the originator of chocolate now West Africa is one of the biggest producers. Yeah. And so unfortunately in the chocolate growing industry there is a lot of modern slavery and indentured slavery and child labour, which, certainly it is difficult to ensure that that is in no part of your supply chain, but it is...I mean I would say that it’s not a controversial opinions to say that it is legally and morally the obligation of any company producing chocolate from there to ensure to the best of your ability that it is not.

And the arguments of most of these companies is that “well it’s impossible to make sure that everyone does it so…” which is like

Liz

But you could try! You could try!

Hazel

Yes, that, and also like, some companies can and do ensure that their product is completely free of child slavery, and like these companies are mostly small companies but you can find them, like, if you just search “slavery free chocolate” you will find a list. So yeah, it can be done, and it should be done. I mean Nestlé has been on the record saying that water as a human right is an extreme position, so I’m not sure that I trust their word on anything, you know

Liz

I mean, I think it’s fair to say this podcast is anti-Nestlé

Hazel

Yeah in 2000 at like, a world water forum, they tried to get water, access to clean drinking water, changed from a right to a need, which is a big difference so...yeah. I mean you heard it here Nestlé suck. But of course like they’re not the only one, this is kind of a big problem so, I’m not trying to say that anyone should stop eating chocolate but it’s definitely a good thing to campaign against this kind of stuff and try to get companies to be more rigorous about it and to try and get changes in the law to try and make companies comply with this sort of thing, so you can do that while eating your delicious chocolate. I ate a lot of chocolate hobnobs while reading about this

Liz

I mean oats and chocolate is just a very good combination

Hazel

Yeah chocolate hobnobs are the king of biscuits. There I said it

Liz

I have been doing chocolate overnight oats lately

Hazel

Ooh that sounds delicious

Liz

Also that is something that really makes my accent come out apparently

Hazel

Well there’s nothing more Lancashire than oats, right?

Liz

It’s the food of my people

Hazel

Ok so I’m gonna end this on a lighter note. Did you know you can 3-D print chocolate?

Liz

What?!

Hazel

There are several chocolate 3-D printers available on the market. Now, please do not, I repeat do not try this at home with a normal 3-D printer, it will not work

Liz

I got really excited then because we have a friend with a 3-D printer

Hazel

Yeah, so chocolate hardens at a much slower rate than the plastic that they use in 3-D printers does, and so if you try it with a normal 3-D printer it will...it will be a mess and also you will probably ruin your 3-D printer. So these chocolate 3-D printers that are available have been developed specifically for chocolate so they keep it at the right temperature, they make sure that it hardens at the right rate, and they’re all food-grade designed, so they’re designed to be used for chocolate and yeah. So you could, these 3-D shapes could be printed that are like, obviously a lot more complex than you could do with a mould, and it is incredible.

I will post a link on the twitter to some of these. I’ll also post a link to the Guardian article on the Nestlé lawsuit in case anyone is interested in that. Oh and there is a 2010 documentary called “The Dark Side of Chocolate” that is available on youtube for free that explains a lot of this stuff, sorry I forgot to mention that earlier, so if you’re interested in more- in learning more about that then you can go see that. But yeah, the chocolate 3-D printer is here.

However, I haven’t seen one cheaper than $2000. They’re kind of in the range of 2000-5000 so it’s kind of an investment, you know?

Liz

So what you’re saying is everyone listening should become a patron at the highest level so we can get a chocolate 3-D printer

Hazel

That’s a worthy cause, getting Bread and Thread a chocolate 3-D printer

(ad for The Probably Bad Podcast)

Hazel

Yeah I mean it’s quite a remarkable machine. You know, hopefully this is the first wave and in future the chocolate printer will become much more affordable, and then we can all know the joy of taking any terrifying CAD file from the internet and downloading it into chocolate form

Liz

Chocolate D&D miniatures though!

Hazel

That would be incredible! And when one of them gets defeated you can just eat it, oh my goodness

Liz

Yes!

Hazel

(screams) So many possibilities!

Liz

Sorry this is like creeping over into my other podcast now

Hazel

Everything becomes D&D eventually

Liz

It does with me, it’s a problem. I’m serious I was reading about like the wild side of medieval catholicism this morning and I was just like “I could implement that, I could implement that…”

Hazel

In D&D, to be clear

Liz

Yeah, I am very much not the Pope. I have several disqualifying factors

Hazel

(loses it) I’m glad we’ve made it crystal clear on this podcast that Liz is not, in fact, the Pope

Liz

This podcast is not affiliated with the Vatican. But that does lead me nicely into the local larder

Hazel

Excellent. So what we learning about today?

Liz

So, this episode is going up pretty much the Sunday before Easter I believe, if I’m right about when Easter is. It moves, the cheeky little scamp

Hazel

It does

Liz

But I want to talk about simnel cake

Hazel

Ok, that’s exciting, like, all I remember about that is that it has the, the little balls on top, right?

Liz

Yeah, it has either 11 or 12 balls of marzipan on top. It’s normally 11, which represents the 12 apostles apart from Judas, because

Hazel

Ah, of course, wouldn’t want to have Judas on your cake

Liz

It’s cancel culture

Hazel

Cancel cake

Liz

But yeah, so it goes back to the 1200s, making a fruit cake with marzipan if you can afford it for either Easter or Mothers’ Day, it kind of changed from Mothering Sunday to Easter. I might as well mention Mothers’ Day while I’m here ‘cause Mothering Sunday used to be when apprentices and domestic servants used to go and visit their family and their mother church, or the church where they were christened

Hazel

Ah ok

Liz

Sort of around Easter time going back to the family and being like “hey, everyone still alive? Great”

Hazel

See ya next year

Liz

And because this is, you know, winter has finished but you haven’t really been able to harvest that much yet, it’s also not a lot of food left, which is also a possible reason why it’s generally a fruit cake, made with dried fruit

Hazel

That makes sense, like what you’ve got left

Liz

In more modern times it often also contains things like brandy, spices, candied peel and things like that

Hazel

Ok so kind of like a Christmas cake?

Liz

Yeah it’s Christmas cake but for Easter

Hazel

So Christmas cake but wearing a different coat

Liz

Mm, one made of delicious delicious marzipan

Hazel

Mm

Liz

So the name simnel cake probably comes from the latin word similla, meaning like fine flour, which probably became simnel, which in the 1200s just meant fine white bread, but it’s also the etymology of semolina, which I just enjoy because, yeah, I like etymology, and so everyone listening has to listen to the etymology

Hazel

That is what having a podcast’s, is for right, it’s for getting to talk about whatever you want, and there’s nothing anyone can do about it

Liz

Yeah. So there’s different versions of simnel cake, the most well-known ones being in Devizes, which is in Wiltshire I believe, which is generally coloured with saffron and made into a star shape, Shrewsbury, which also tends to have a saffron crust, and the most famous, sort of the common one now, which is from Bury which is where I live, contains nuts, cherries, and candied peel, and that’s the version with the 11 marzipan balls

Hazel

Oh! So that’s a Bury thing

Liz

Yeah, I don’t know why that’s the one that became widespread

Hazel

Ok. Oh that’s not fair you have two famous regional things now

Liz

I mean, you could also argue that Eccles cakes are quite famous and they’re from fairly near to Bury

Hazel

That is true. The Greater Manchester area has a lot of...a lot of foods

Liz

What can I say, Lancashire is great. But yeah, there’s a folk etymology, because of course there is, which attributes it to Lambert Simnel, who was a pretender to the throne, who pretended to be the, I believe nephew of Edward IV, after the crowning of Henry VII. Lot of kings, Wars of the Roses, everything’s very confusing, but basically he ended up being pardoned by Henry VII and became a cook

Hazel

Wow!

Liz

He worked in the royal kitchens, and later became a falconer, which is cool, but there’s a story that he invented the simnel cake

Hazel

I love that

Liz

But he was born in 1477 and there’s references to simnel cake in the 1200s, so he definitely didn’t, but it’s a fun story

Hazel

That’s amazing. The folk story’s always better than the real story

Liz

Yeah. Lambert Simnel’s just an interesting person I think, just because of this pretender thing. Because apparently they were originally gonna present him as one of the Princes in the Tower

Hazel

Oh that’s why I know about that vaguely, ‘cause yeah the name was ringing a bell and I think I have read about this but, yeah, I couldn’t remember what, what sort of time it happened, but yeah I definitely remember a thing about, like there were a few people pretending to be the Princes in the Tower

Liz

Yeah, which, I think it generally didn’t go well for them, and there’s the theory that the Tudors got rid of the Princes in the Tower and blamed Richard III which is possibly why it always ended so badly for them, but at basically the last minute the person presenting Simnel, Richard...either Richard or William Symonds because medieval spelling, decided to go for “oh he’s actually Edward IV’s nephew” instead which honestly might have saved his life considering how it went for other pretenders. But yeah, not really relevant, but it’s a fun story and it’s not food-based so when else am I gonna get to talk about it on here

So yeah, that is simnel cake, it’s...it is interesting that you have Christmas cake and simnel cake, which are virtually identical apart from the marzipan which, as we’ve learned, was only because someone in Lancashire decided to it, but they are seen as very different things, but because you also get fruit cake at weddings, traditionally, it’s like “it’s christianity time, have some fruit cake”

Hazel

Yeah I think it, it just is that a lot of traditional British celebration cakes are just a fruitcake in disguise, that’s just the only fancy cake that we have

Liz

But we did put all of the fancy stuff in

Hazel

Exactly, that’s why we didn’t need any other

Liz

There’s sugar, there’s fruit, there’s brandy, there’s citrus peel, there’s maybe saffron if you’re from Devizes

Hazel

Maybe some almonds

Both

Oooooooh

Liz

I mean that’s what...that’s where marzipan comes from isn’t it

Hazel

We just, we didn’t leave any of the fancy stuff for different cakes, we just went “let’s put it all in one, and it should be twice as good, right?” and then we got fruit cake which nobody likes any more

Liz

Yeah, I mean I feel like it’s partly changing tastes and partly we have options now, we can have fancy things that aren’t just everything in one cake

Hazel

We can get fruit in the winter now

Liz

Very exciting. But yeah that is, that is simnel cake

Hazel

That went places I didn’t expect it to, but I like it

Liz

If you want to get us one step closer towards a chocolate 3-D printer, we do have a patreon as I said, it’s just breadandthread, where you can get access to recipes, if you give us enough money we’ll make you your own special bonus episode, and we have a discord server

Hazel

We also have a twitter account, @breadandthread, where you can find out what’s coming up next, see what we’re up to, and let us know your unpopular chocolate opinions

Liz

And if you don’t tweet and you want to yell at us about chocolate anyway which, I welcome, you can email breadandthreadpodcast@gmail.com. It’s fine, I’m the one that checks the emails, Hazel doesn’t have to see the yelling

Hazel

But I’ll probably hear it

Liz

Oh yeah, I will communicate it

Hazel

If we get any angry emails in all-caps can you just like shout them at me over the phone

Liz

Definitely

Hazel

Awesome

Liz

So on that note, thank you for listening and we’ll see you next time, which I believe will be Nick guesting, to tell us about Italian courtly dress manners, which is not grammar, but you know what I mean

Hazel

F-fancy-fancy clothes, fancy clothes

Liz

Yeah

(end music)