Episode 64 - God Our Mother - Live from Boston

[transcript automatically generated - cleanup in progress]

[Music] god what do i think of i think of a creator i think of that from which everything came i think of why we continue to be here in this very moment why our quantum wave functions keep collapsing and we keep being individuals i mean does the singularity have a gender did god create the universe with a word or with sperm and dna i mean let's be honest do we really believe that god has a penis welcome to the liturgist podcast everybody this is christina cleveland christina cleveland is a social psychologist public theologian and author of disunity in christ uncovering the hidden forces that keep us apart and an associate professor of the practice of organizational studies at duke university's divinity school let's welcome christina cleveland [Music] [Applause] [Music] christina thank you so much for being here with us thank you such a pleasure to finally meet you in person um so i don't know what do you what do you think does does god have a penis christina yes and no maybe um i feel like god is um is interested in being personified because god wants to be known and i think if someone needs god to have a penis in order to connect with god initially then sure god has a penis wow you're pushing my uh non-theistic mystic buttons personify god blasphemy is there any trouble then if one considers if needs if you need to connect to god through a male metaphor right is it any less valid to approach god with a female or non-gendered metaphor i wouldn't say so and i would argue that it's perhaps more valid simply because the average human being on earth right now is a woman of color living in the global south who is in significant danger on a daily basis of sexual violence and so it would be even more important for god to be non-gendered or even female as simply a safe space to be drawn to draw to so can you talk a little bit more about what you meant when you're saying god wants to be personified can you unpack that a little bit well the way i understand god is just that god is relational and god wants to know and be known and we are so limited by our human cognitive abilities and emotional intelligence and i don't think god wants to let that get in the way of being known about you mike i wonder even today uh there's a lot of talk in our media narratives that america is secularizing um but it seems that christianity is still awfully influential in the united states it seems to me that america is perhaps de-institutionalizing but not necessarily de-spiritualizing and for some people it is helpful and perhaps even essential to think of god in male language but as you kind of alluded to with the average person globally not being an american and not being male is there a danger in your opinion of continuing to elevate exclusively male imagery of god in a time that we're trying to move towards more universal human flourishing and a more egalitarian society yeah i think it's dangerous i also think it's heretical um if you think about them [Laughter] if you think about the multi-faceted universe in which we live in it's i mean how dare we think that we have direct access or like complete access to who god is and i think every culture has a secret about god every culture has a pathway to god that other cultures don't know and you would i would include gender as a culture and so if only the masculine pathway to god is pursued or seen as logical or legitimate then i would call that heretical which is really the way we've been living and not just christianity i mean most of the world religions have very masculine understandings of god that are dominant i guess we think about pronouns you have to think about language first when you're talking about something that's not a something language that's what it does right you split up something into a thing what is a thing like what is the thing if you like can you define a thing i said object what it's just a synonym what is a thing like what it's speech that's all that it is it's a way of thinking about something i said what is what is this like what are you talking about but if if if we left you in a loan in a room for like a year with just these two eventually this would like have a name probably or some kind of like right like this would become this piece of paper sorry podcast listeners i tore a piece of paper um eventually this part of the paper but then you'd be like well what about this part is that the same and bear with me folks so when you're talking about god what do you do if god is infinite where are you where are you delineating the edges of your thought to define what you're talking about that's the edge of your idol right there so like when we say god wants god is god the name the word you put anything to it and it's like what does that conjure up if it's a thought if it's in it it's already too small but what else are we gonna do that's we're language thinking apes i would i do think that the way you're framing it it could be framed differently so certainly it can make god small but it can also enlarge god too because language and consciousness are so closely connected we can't consciously experience something if we don't have a label or you could argue that we can't like for example there are polynesian tribes that don't have a name for grief they don't they don't they don't have a name for that emotion but when someone dies they say they experience fatigue so then you could argue well then they're not consciously experiencing grief because there's no label for it and so i think with god certainly the metaphors break down but if there is a chorus of metaphors then it can start to expand the margins of the idol and that's why i think it's useful to have pronouns that push those boundaries and force us to rethink and i think it's interesting when people use a a female pronoun for god or like a gender neutral one or even like a genderqueer one and people react that's always interesting to me because cultures strong lines around what's sacred and what's profane and i think it's interesting to kind of say well why what is your idol then if this can't be expanded if it's sacred in some way or profane well i think for so much of the american church it is profane to use anything other than exclusively masculine imagery for god so my struggle is not to think of god as female or male but as gendered or with personality or consciousness uh because i like physics and i think of any any god who can exist in a realm of einsteinian relativity with a non-locked thematic and temporal reference frames if if if velocity can sweep the simultaneousness of two points of the universe by more than the arc of human history just by changing direction or gravitational waves this is all true i was at mit i'm an expert by the way by me at mit i mean i visited yesterday i didn't like get a degree we all have our heresy right we all have i like to think i will nothing is profane to me all is sacred but it pushes my button so much to say he or her about god it really does because i've reached this place in my life where my primary venue of faith is mysticism and i rebel at any attempt to describe god but i think we have to offer some grace to people in acknowledging what christina said that metaphor helps draw concepts to be near and real to the human consciousness the question is how do we avoid battling and warring and oppressing each other when different metaphors are helpful to different people why are we so obsessed with one single accurate or dare i say orthodox metaphor for what is ultimately infinite and unknowable to be a mother is to suffer to travail in the dark stretched and torn exposed in half-naked humiliation subjected to indignities for the sake of new life [Music] to be a mother is to say this is my body broken for you and in the next instant in response to the created's primal hunger this is my body take and eat to be a mother is to self-empty to neither slumber nor sleep so attuned you are to cries in the night offering the comfort of yourself and assurances of i'm here to be a mother is to weep over the fighting and exclusions and wounds your children inflict on one another to long for reconciliation and brotherly love and when all is said and done to gather all parties the offender and offended into the folds of your embrace and to whisper in their ears that they are beloved to be a mother is to be vulnerable to be misunderstood railed against blamed for the heartaches of the bewildered children who don't know where else to cast the angst they feel over their own existence in this perplexing universe to be a mother is to hoist onto your hips those on whom your image is imprinted bearing the burden of their weight rejoicing in their returned affection delighting in their wonder bleeding in the presence of their pain [Music] to be a mother is to be accused of sentimentality one moment and injustice the next to be the receiver of endless demands absorber of perpetual complaints reckoner of bottomless needs to be a mother is to be an artist a keeper of memories past weaver of stories untold visionary of lives looming ahead [Music] to be a mother is to be the first voice listened to and the first disregarded to be a mender of broken creations and comforter of the distraught children whose hands wrought them to be a mother is to be a touchstone and the source bestower of names influencer of identities life giver life shaper empath healer and original love [Music] [Applause] [Music] thee he sees my mother's world into my listening ears all nature scenes and round mirroring [Music] this is my mother's world rocks and trees [Music] all creatures of our god and queen lift up your voice and with a sin oh praising oh praising thou burning sun with golden beard thou silva moon was softer glee [Music] hallelujah [Music] praise praise the mother praise the son praise praise the spirit three in one o o praise them oh praise them [Music] hallelujah [Music] oh bless the lord on my soul oh my soul worship it's holy name sing like never before all my soul i worship its whole name [Music] i worship its holy name [Music] i worship its home name it loves us oh how it loves us [Music] how it loves us oh how he loves us it's normal at so many different points in our life to feel like something is getting in the way of being present or happy something stopping us from achieving the goals that we have for ourselves or feeling connected to the people that we love betterhelp will assess your needs and match you with your own licensed professional therapist to help you work on all those things you can connect with someone in a safe and private online environment for that reason it's so convenient you don't even have to leave the house you can start working with someone in under 24 hours when working with someone through better help you can send a message to your counselor at any time and get a timely and thoughtful response plus you can schedule weekly video and phone sessions betterhelp has licensed professional counselors who are specialized in treating things like depression anxiety navigating family conflicts and so much more they're committed to facilitating great therapeutic matches so they make it easy and free to change counselors if needed anything you share with your counselor is confidential so many people have been using better help that they're recruiting additional counselors in all 50 states start living a happier life today as a listener you get 10 off your first month by visiting betterhelp.com liturgists join over 1 million people taking care of their mental health again it's betterhelp h-e-l-p-com slash liturgists so we want to thank allison woodward for her beautiful poetry and uh our boy david gunger for coming and making everyone deeply uncomfortable with those mixed pronouns how'd that make you feel that's strange wasn't it we have all this organizational institutional repetitional memory into what pronoun is right for god and right in that music and right in this context i'm a firm believer that everything you think about god is stored as a pattern of synapses and neurons within the 86 billion neurons in your skull neuroscience shows us that there's really only two neurological ways to think of god this is across different religions this is across different perspectives you either think of god as primarily loving or merciful or primarily angry or wrathful and this has profound impact on how you relate to god and the effects of belief in god on your physiology did you know that people who believe in an angry god have elevated responsiveness in their amygdala they become angry and afraid more often they are fearful of outsiders people that aren't a part of their social grouping or nationality people who believe in an angry god experience elevated blood pressure they find it difficult to forgive themselves and to forgive other people it's not all bad though people who believe in an angry god have outstanding impulse control as they don't want to be smited by a mighty god now people who believe in a loving god have a completely different experience with the divine they experience growth in certain centers of their brain like the anterior cingulate cortex that's responsible for love compassion and empathy they forgive themselves easily they forgot of others easily as well basically a loving god is good for your health and your mental well-being and an angry god kind of makes you afraid of the whole world in a not entirely unrelated matter research has shown with smaller sample sizes but still fascinating that our gender metaphor has a profound impact on how we view god a study was done where the same text was offered to 63 study participants they were told about god by a narrator and in one case half of the group heard of a male god and the other group female the difference nothing but pronouns at the end of the study they found that people who read about a male god were most likely to report god as being powerful or vengeful whereas people who heard of a female god in the research were most likely to think of god as merciful or loving if we call back the effects of god on our brain it turns out that at least neurologically speaking perhaps god our mother is a more healthy idea for the human brain now as we've discussed earlier in the show ancient people thought a woman's body was a garden where a man's seed was planted and the father was the true creator of life when we say god our father father today we evoke different images than the ancients were evoking so we're using the same text but with different meaning because language changes and cultural contexts do as well of course even genesis says that male and female are both created in the image of god which really messes up the idea of god the [Music] you dude my skin against your breasts you were my food you were my life [Music] you were my morning and my night it's always only ever been [Music] it's always only ever been [Music] you then i met you on the wall [Music] you were 17 inches tall a painted smile across your face i pray for heaven pray for grace i gave my life when i was 10. it's always ever been [Music] you [Music] i [Music] [Music] jesus save your lord and keep all my friends and everything there's always only you i saw the writing on the wall [Music] there was no perfect saving love was always only ever me it was always only me [Music] so [Music] then my world was torn apart i felt a ground i felt a heart and all the universe was won [Music] just like a father's spirit sun my heart is open once again a distant love a full old friend maybe it's always ever been [Music] [Music] i will stay right here with you every [Music] and is always only when i was 15 something remarkable happened i'm old er than some people and uh in my teen years the internet uh wasn't a world wide web it was uh bulletin board system where you it should go for queries oh man no nerds in this crowd sorry um oh there we go thank you thank you yes this is a different world so you could get some information online but most information had not been digitized in fact a common problem nerds talked about was how on the earth are we ever going to get all the information on the internet so instead every year for my birthday i would ask my parents for a subscription to a magazine this is where they send dead trees to your house with information printed on them and i think it was i don't know i was probably 12 when i first asked for scientific american and it's a great publication and when i was 15 the i got an issue that talked about archaeology and i was like what is this where's the physics is archaeology even science but regardless i was fascinated because uh it did talk at least about radiometric dating and they'd found an artifact of an ancient deity a goddess a goddess with a plump belly and full breasts denoting fertility and i thought wait are you kidding me you can't have a statue of a goddess god is the father god is the creator the god head in the trinity it really made me uncomfortable but reflecting that over time made me realize something world religions have not always thought of god in primarily male terms and so i wonder if you could help us shed any light on how male imagery came to be so common at least in western culture um where did male god come from same place where white god came from [Applause] [Music] um i mean even in the christian tradition there are long long long streams of god being understood as female i mean marian theology is just as old as christology and um i think because of the ways in which western christianity has um partnered with power it just so happens that the people who are in power white and male and yeah i mean if you actually if you study all of the different particularly within the catholic church i mean there's just so much beautiful mariology that suggests that mary and jesus were mutually indwelled they were one um there's i mean there's just beautiful language um that suggests that like the the blood that jesus used to transform the world sprang for mary's heart i mean it's just gorgeous and so when you think about well why did that just get pushed to the side because it's not like it wasn't there and it hasn't been there you start to ask the question who gets to decide what's true who gets to decide what's legitimate who gets to decide what's sacred so how do you see like ancient i mean because patriarchy is not new i think there's something about when we use these pronouns um if you only think of something as an it back to that piece of paper you tear if it's only in it but then after a while if you were in the room by yourself it might become more than an it to you it might become a friend like the the volleyball and what the movie the castaway um wilson it became a he you know so it becomes there's something we as humans have this bonding mechanism in our brain that we we bond together and have form relationships and it's personal to us and so the way that you can relate to god personally feels closer and more heartfelt and more soulish but there's something about when you talk about a parental figure father or mother certainly all different metaphors can have beautiful values friend or there's all different kinds even in the bible there's lots of different kinds of metaphors but when you're talking about parental it is interesting that the father is the primary used one and and can that be a coincidence with patriarchy historically and how human beings have felt about the head of the house about the even within church still you still see there's lots of monarchical power and authority imagery language even architecture our art it's all it's always there and patriarchy it seems to be in the very fabric of everything and that seems to go back pretty far so any thoughts about that sure i mean i think it goes back to the creation story there's always been a mistrust of feminine wisdom and so you see it shows up all over the place and like a racial gendered example would be the jezebel figure um as a black woman i'm always called jezebel especially right after i preach because i might lead someone astray right i mean anytime a woman particularly a black woman has something to say and is influential and like the men particularly the white men can't control it then all of a sudden you're labeled dangerous and that goes all the way back to the beginning of time and one of the things that's fascinating to me is um you know obviously these are stories that were passed down verbally they weren't written they weren't studied the way that we do anyone in moses's time who was probably first hearing these creation stories or the the enslaved israelites who were first hearing these stories these myths about the serpent they would have understood the serpent to be an icon the only thing that would have made sense was the serpent is feminine wisdom that that was the un that was the common knowledge kind of like if you saw like an apple and you'd be like oh mac right i mean it's just that's what we know and so it's just interesting that of all the creatures in the garden it's the serpent the feminine wisdom that comes to incite the fall so this goes back to the very beginning like don't trust women don't trust women's leadership don't trust women's wisdom and then it just you're right patriarchy is not new and so we see streams of it in scripture and we see streams of it and um the way that even jesus's words are interpreted here we are now but how in the heck i mean you just blew my mind twice in a row first the jezebel thing oh my god uh and then the second i'm not new to christianity uh i grew up in a southern baptist family i was baptized when i was seven years old i've studied christianity extensively when i was an atheist to try to disprove it and i've never run across the serpent as a symbol of feminine wisdom that's that's baked in pretty early in the judeo tradition like what on earth how can we redeem a faith that a leads people in power to call you a jezebel when he starts to speak truth and b whose early evocative imagery was deeply deeply anti-feminine how can we possibly create language and liturgy and ritual an institution that creates space for all of humanity especially women especially queer people especially people who don't identify as male 1 i don't think we can create language and liturgy and institution to do those things because those are all masculine forms of interacting with god and that's the beautiful thing about the sacred feminine is that it opens up an entirely different way of even relating to god and i think that it is the feminine pathway that will save us from these cages that we're in i mean even if you just think of i mean so many people like disaffected millennial post-evangelical whatever they're called now um a lot of them have like moved into like episcopal's churches or really progressive methodist churches or something like that but if you think about it the liturgy is still it's still all about transcendence which is like inherently patriarchal it's inherently masculine to rise above the mundane what with the nitty-gritty parts of life and it's the it's the feminine it's the matriarchal pathways that say no let's get down into the dirt and let's let's be imminent and um one of the reasons why i'm fine with someone needing god to have a penis in order to follow god or meet god or connect with god because the matriarchal religions are like we're not trying to control you we trust that god can connect with you it's so patriarchal to be like no you can't believe that like i'm threatened if you believe that no like i don't believe in god then if i can't let you do you and let god connect with you on your terms and so it's it opens up a whole different way it's like oh i don't want to create new languages and liturgies and institutions i want to open up space for god to come and that is so feminine that's so um coming alongside people it's so with your dirty diapers and your bloody noses and i'm gonna birth you through the suffering that we just don't those metaphors that we have for a male god just don't get us there [Applause] how you feel guys i said guys for a reason i did not i was not addressing the entire room anybody else experienced that anybody else feel a momentary pressure on your toe perhaps gosh is my spirituality often focused on transcendence often how many times have i asked my wife why can't she can't just forget about the kids in the house because we're at church how deeply indoctrinated into our very identity is masculine conceptions of spiritual experience a distance from bodily physical imminent ideas wow preach christina i think some of the pushback that i've heard in my experience with pronouns as a guy that for years tried to help people sing in churches about god my experience is when people have come across feminine imagery whether it's in our songs or what we've talked about or hearing other people's people go right to like revelation but the way that god was revealed to us through jesus was as father that's kind of the big argument like we don't just make this stuff up we were handed this thing through jesus he called jesus father so why shouldn't we hmm you know there's just so many things that jesus did that undermine this idea and you know i mean those of us who've studied some new testament know that the metaphor of god as father shows up almost exclusively in the gospel of john which was written 70 years after the other three gospels and so one of the things i know about social because i'm a social psychologist one of the things i know is organizations start to um they might start out really egalitarian but then within two or three generations you start to see hierarchies cemented in them and so it might have been this sort of ragamuffin um budding christian faith that was happening where they weren't really talking about god as father or maybe patriarchy wasn't playing as much a role but then within two or three generations which is when john wrote his gospel then you have a hierarchy in place um so it's it's predictable if there's anything about whiteness and patriarchy they're so predictable um so it's like okay yeah that's i would i would predict that and then it happened i just i wonder about the relationship to metaphor and if that's part we get so attached to these metaphors because they're there for a reason like you said you can use multiple metaphors to enrich your experience of reality of your engagement with it you can add new names to emotions and then all of a sudden you feel a nuance that maybe you didn't before even if you're a revelation person which [Laughter] why does it take away from god's revelation to a specific context within a specific people for a metaphor to exist and why can't that maybe that was and can be another beautiful way of adding to the list of metaphors that kind of create a bigger picture in the long run if the more metaphors in some ways if you're related to the metaphor in a proper way and not in a fundamentalist grabby angsty attached way but in more of an experiential openhearted open-handed way all the metaphors the more metaphors the better in some way you know it's like another another way of experiencing another way of seeing that can add another layer of nuance yeah well i think oppression always needs a partner and more often than not it partners with religion and so i think when when we're using metaphors that are partnering with oppression then i wonder if the metaphor no longer works i do think there's room there's room in the infiniteness of our relationship with god for there to be a plethora of metaphors um but the god the father one has been used to abuse so many people it's almost like you wonder when jesus said the last way first and the first will be last maybe it's time to be last for that metaphor for a while so that other metaphors can can take their rightful place and lead us into the kingdom of god that cuts deep well i will say i didn't come up with that that's the mujiristas i think first you so that the feminist latinx theologians first started using kingdom instead of kingdom of god which is non-hierarchical and non-patriarchal and non-mon what how do you say monarchical monarchy yeah [Laughter] um feudal i sometimes wonder like with john specifically john was either written right around the time uh or a bit after jerusalem was sacked by the romans and so a lot what you see happening in in john is an attempt to sanitize jesus to be less dangerous right so if you're a christian 70 years after christ and you've seen the one of the most larger and most beloved churches in its day the jerusalem burned to the ground along with an entire city you start to wonder in your theology is there a way to continue this tradition without say also being crucified or having our city burned to the ground i wonder how much of that embrace of a father god and john is an attempt to cozy up to roman power structures as ways of thinking we also i think i'm no bible scholar but john is an especially hellenistic take on christ and so i almost wonder if that this is one of the first times christianity embraces empire to survive and to thrive it was certainly a gamble that played off constantine was quite a an elevation of the cooperation between this religion christianity and empire and also i unless i'm mistaken the romans were somewhat colonial and they like to export their systems and structures and language and thinking to other regions across the world and suddenly the great commission becomes a command to colonize other people's lands ideas identities ethnicities it's fascinating that linkage and fascinating how much i wouldn't even say that haunts us today but defines the way most westerners think about their faith at all yeah so the oppression thing how it relates to metaphors it is a it is interesting thing when you when you're a person either puts on liturgy for people or writes about it or sings about it or whatever and you got to think carefully about that but don't you also think that the war between all religions the violence the amount of bloodshed and hatred and vitriol that even exists within christianity yet alone amongst religions it's all it's fights over metaphors that's what it is so like i'm not a fan i've made it clear on several podcasts that i'm not a big fan of the uh blood atonement metaphor it doesn't do anything for me i'm not like good i don't have to slaughter any more bulls because my sin has been atoned for no more bloodshed yes you know it doesn't like i don't get to jump into that metaphor and feel what somebody may have felt if they felt like they had to slaughter bulls the final sacrifice of jesus was quite a lovely metaphor for them but i can and have also reacted to that metaphor in a way that becomes it can actually close down part of myself if i get too like no not you can't use that metaphor so where i'm at now i i don't know that there's if a metaphor exists it exists it came into the world for a reason everything is misused anything good anything powerful gets misused how can we have a healthy relationship to those metaphors and to that language is something i'm interested in how can we allow those metaphors whatever they are from other cultures are they even ones i disagree with other ones i don't find useful for myself can i have a relationship with them that doesn't close me off to people that it does mean something to that it doesn't close me off to the infinite but that it that i can see the limitations of all language and all metaphor and approach it more like one of the toys in the sandbox that i'm i don't have to play with that one it's just one of the toys in the sandbox is radioactive people getting sick when they handle it or mad for power it's like it's like a radioactive toy with the one ring in it [Laughter] that's a struggle i have how do i relate to close friends and family and fellow congregants whose metaphors partner in systems of oppression whether they like have good intentions or not that's what happens um especially you know while also acknowledging that gosh do i have a long way to go i'm a co-host of something called the liturgist podcast and i've never thought of the liturgy as a masculine expression of spirituality until about eight minutes ago so we're like all on this journey where we keep wake think we're waking up and then someone reminds us like you really hit the snooze button a lot right how do we properly partner to help create that space how do we become co-laborers um and that a rephrase my question earlier instead of language and institutions how can i as a liturgically oriented unconsciously masculine spiritual person best partner in creating room for the sacred feminine yeah i think that's where that's where we really have to call on god our mother and that's why i think those the ways of thinking about god as mother is so important you know um in about once i started opening myself up to this idea of god our mother i was pretty quickly introduced to the black madonna and i became a devotee in like three hours i'm not even kidding i wear a black madonna around my neck every day if i go into my job at duke which is a difficult space i will like wear this necklace and i have like forgotten it and literally gone home to get my necklace because i want to know that god is with me and not just any god a god who knows what it's like to be me in that space and one of the things that i love about the theologies that have been constructed specifically around the black madonna is she's the dark-skinned holy woman and we are her children we the children of the dark-skinned holy woman who is never afraid of the dark and i love that metaphor because it means that as i move into these spaces i can actually embrace the darkness and the unknowing maybe i don't know how to not partner with oppression and my metaphors and it's the release that's actually the pathway which is like the opposite of patriarchal ways it's always like how do i know it how do i name it how do i come up with a creed you know like all and it's it's an entirely different way of interacting with god i'm deeply incubated i'm the child of this dark-skinned woman who's never afraid of the dark i'm gonna walk with that it's so counter to everything we've been taught [Music] father god mother earth the icy girth the vital spirit mother earth father god the fertile sod the presence near it god father earth mother the caring other the oneness seeing father earth mother god the ocean broad the ground of being earth father god mother the tender brother the blooming places mother god father earth the sacred birth amazing graces dearest father dearest mother i am you we are each other the breezy chills the winter freeze the sturdy hills the supple trees the softened rock the moon above the wispy stock the boundless love you are of by she we come he is for and i thee from us are now through it and me you are with is near am and be thank you and let's thank lee savile dixon i have been so deeply convicted in this conversation in the most wonderful way every time i talk to you i learn more per minute than i do anywhere else um so you're well thank you i mean really uh you're an open crowd you're you listen to the literature's podcast right like the total closed mind they typically don't hit subscribe and download on this show but can you see like what i've been starting to just barely glimpse for the last couple of years how much without thought the entire structure and pattern of our theology our political structure is just designed to protect the power of men and every time i think like i get it i see patriarchy i see white supremacy all i've done is like delude myself because it was almost always deeper rooted and more insidious than i previously imagined i would challenge you if the idea of a black madonna is uh reflexively rejected to sit with it and maybe even to see if you can embrace it because unfortunately for the reputation of the great scholar megan kelly jesus was not white in any possible conception or definition of the term in no way was jesus his mother his father his family his community white and the thing many of us have to ask especially those of us uh who like me are straight white and male is how do we relate to a faith created by the marginalized when we are citizens of rome and often its centurions [Music] blessing our hands [Music] [Music] all those in need [Music] [Music] [Music] halloween [Music] [Laughter] [Music] jesus brother guiding our heaven to deliver us and ground places [Music] fall [Music] oh will be [Music] my name [Music] is in all the earth [Music] [Music] clarissa pincola estes who's a latinx theologian wrote a really wonderful book about mary called untie the strong woman and i'd recommend it for anyone who's interested in learning more about mary as a peasant part of the divine godhead and in it she tells a story about growing up in the old country really really really poor her family were immigrants and they lived they lived very poorly and they had to cook by fire and they had to wash their clothes by fire and everything they did by fire so they had like several fires every every day running and at night her grandmother had this practice of sifting through the ashes and looking for any piece of wood that like in any way resembled the feminine form and only like once every six weeks or two months would she even find one of these but everyone smells she'd find one and she would say look look she came for us i looked for her and she came to us today and there were these like little black madonnas and they were burnt because they were they had been in the fire all day and so her grandmother would put them up on the ledge of her garden and she would say she's looking out over us blessing our garden it's going to flourish this year we're not alone in the midst of patriarchy and anti-immigration sentiment and poverty and they had a little an irish priest at their local parish and he would come by and like poo poo the black madonnas and he would be like you know mary had porcelain skin and it was white like these are that's not mary mary didn't come to you god didn't come to you and i think gosh if we're ever going to change the way the west thinks about patriarchy and god it has to start by being led by folks on the margins who day after day after day they're not sitting in rooms like this wondering like is god a bunch of protons or is god like a pronoun you know like that's not they're not doing that they're struggling every single day and every night they're practicing the presence of god by sifting through the burnt wood and embers and trash and trying to find where god is and god is a woman the god they find is a woman who understands their pain and miguel de la tour sorry i'm preaching now miguel de la tour is one of is one of my favorite um theologians and he just i love the way he thinks about ethics and he just says if you if you if you can associate with power if you can participate in power i mean everyone in this room participates in whiteness everyone in this room whether you're male or not participates in patriarchy and benefits from patriarchy in some ways i often tell my students i'm like the closest thing you can be to a white man and still be a black woman you know in terms of like education resume like all the things right and so we participate in these systems and miguel miguel de la tour says that means you're disqualified from like fixing it and making decisions about how to fix it you've been poisoned by power and so where do we turn so can we turn to these incredible beautiful people who are finding god in the trash and in the ashes and saying this is who god is and that's what i'm going to do i'm going to follow what they say god is could we thank christina for being with us tonight [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] so well this has been the liturgist podcast live in boston you can catch us in seattle this october later check our website thelitusgathering.com for details if you're here tonight and you're one of our patrons make sure you check your patreon app tomorrow for your invite to a little after party get together we'd love to hear your feedback on this episode at the liturgist.com podcast at the liturgist on twitter or facebook.com the liturgists we want to thank christina cleveland david gunger irish chandler corey pig greg nordine and jim chaffee and reservoir church as well as all of our patrons for making tonight's podcast possible from the strings [Applause] [Music] and if you're part of a small gathering or church that's interested in producing more inclusive liturgies just email madison theliturgist.com if you're interested in partnering with us to create liturgies in your community i'm science mike i'm christina cleveland michael gunger thanks for listening everybody [Music] [Music] you