ASM041 Ask Science Mike LIVE in Denver, CO

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live from denver colorado with saint andrew united methodist church it's ask science mike

[Applause]

hey everybody it's so good to be with you this week uh and i'm glad i can speak vaguely incoherent sentences if you didn't hear on last week's show i had a motorcycle accident and i'm dealing with a concussion and so today we are testing my abilities to the limit with a live episode of ask science mike hopefully it's going to be good and possibly it'll be a disaster either way let's get it started [Music] my name is jimmy hawkins from parker colorado down the street and uh my question is kind of a two-parter both around artificial intelligence so the first part is um do you think that we as the human race could be ever be overthrown from the top of the food chain by something with artificial intelligence and part two is if artificial intelligence is modeled after our own brain could a machine or something with artificial intelligence be religious right on so a couple of thoughts one i never worry about computers throwing humans off the food chain because computers don't eat so what we're talking about is there is it feasible that somehow a consciousness could exist in a brain powered by semiconductors instead of neurons and two if that's the case is there the potential for that intelligence to exceed our own possibly dramatically anyone who has heard the liturgies podcast has the inside track on where i'm going with this intelligence evolved really slowly in biological organisms in fact some evolutionary biologists question the very merit of the idea that intelligence is inevitable in terms of what happens in evolution but somehow with the hominids our brains kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger but it still took a long time in a blink of geologic time uh we'd be throwing poo not brewing right uh we're we're just this recent recent upstart in evolution for intelligence and what we found is the speed by which intelligence is emerging from artificial selection i.e computers is way faster than it developed with traditional neurologically based intelligence now why is that potentially frightening well moore's law is pretty exciting that's the way computers get faster and cheaper all the time moore's law means that i've got more power in my pocket so to speak than you had in a super computer 20 years ago right and i didn't mean to just do that as sexual innuendo but um the idea is if this curve keeps going is there a point where based on the way exponential math works computers go from being like a bit dumber than us to way smarter than us okay now the problem is everything that makes your intelligence scary comes from your limbic system right your fear anger brain it makes you do scary things violent things with your intelligence computers have no limbic system so the real thing that keeps smart ai researchers physicists and mathematicians up at night is we potentially could create a consciousness that is alien to us and much more intelligent for whom's motives we couldn't understand a great example of this is if you made uh in a very short version an ai that made handwritten cards and you gave it the goal to make the most the most well done a cards that possibly could to achieve that goal it may for example wipe out human life turn the earth into a factory that pumps out cards so it can practice its handwriting and then turn the whole solar system into planets full of robotic arms practicing handwriting and like that's not an evil genius plot that's just like rain man times a billion right so now there's this other idea if your consciousness as most modern cognitive scientists believe emerges from the relationships and connections and synapses and dendrites and neurons in the human brain we could model connections like that in a computer in fact we already can in the largest computers in the world we can model a number of neurons approximately similar to a rat which sounds kind of awesome and kind of pathetic right you have like a like a building size computer about as smart as a wrap what's interesting to me is if you take the neural mapping of a flatworm and you turn it into software and they've done this and you put that software with no further programming into a robot and you map a motor to the left side of what would be the worm's body and the right side to this virtual brain and you give it a sensor where its nose would be with no programming that little robot can navigate space that's literally a robot worm consciousness today and that blows my mind now that makes me think it's plausible that someday we might be able to model a human level consciousness in a machine including a simulated limbic system and i'm going to put my opinion in line with guys like stephen hawking when i say that's an awful idea that's an awful terrible the grinch stole humanity idea because if you take a consciousness and put it into a machine where that consciousness can then modify itself and become exponentially more intelligent think faster there's no telling what that root of a limbic system may do and i think that's where you get your classic skynet destroys humanity in short i think digital ai is a bad idea now could ai be spiritual if spirituality is a collection of innate neurological biases these are roots in our cognition there's no reason you couldn't have similar biases in a collection of circuitry instead of synapses absolutely i think machines could both have souls and wonder how they got here [Music] my name is jd i'm from pueblo west colorado and i was just listening to a podcast and they were talking about south africa that they had found recently 15 bones in a burial tomb or something of that nature and i was wondering if that has any effect or adds to takes away some of the previous thoughts of the missing link uh there is no missing link there's no missing link because it's in this room the missing link is sitting in here over and over and there are probably trillions of copies called dna we can slice those bad boys up and we can trace our evolutionary lineage you know why because like corn is in your body like genetically the recipe for corn is in your dna now not modern corn right but a common ancestor we can go back and find it so if you are not a pure lineage of one of the two african populations of humans congratulations you were between one and five percent neanderthal neanderthals didn't die out they're drinking beer in colorado right so what we're getting at is the fossil record checks in occasionally and somewhat randomly and here's why it's actually really spectacular and a rare occurrence for something to get fossilized and the bones that we have from early hominids are generally pretty fragmented so for anthropologists and evolutionary anthropologists the fossil story is constantly being refined and you could expect in your lifetime discovery after discovery that's going to fill in our picture of hominid development but that's different than changing the plot of the whole story evolutionary biology through dna forensics like we can take you all the way back to bacteria see what i mean and because here's the big thing species and evolution one day you're not homo erectus and the next day homo sapien there's this gradual change and at no point is there just like a clean line between one species and another species and we watch that happen right now chimpanzees and bonobos are on that tipping point they are just super recently became separate species and can still sometimes what interbreed you wait a few more million years and if you saw these two populations you'd say i can't believe they were ever closely related because the changes are gradual and glacial so will we get different particulars and specifics and timelines over time will it even undermine things we thought we knew with high confidence absolutely but the overall story that life on this planet all emerged from a common ancestor is pretty unshakeable and it's in your bloodstream right now [Music] uh doug spellman just moved here to denver um when i was growing up we were taught not to question anything take the bible super literal then i got to college it was a christian college and even my faith was shaken there because they talk about you know the story of moses and there's no real historical proof that that sort of exodus even happened yeah and it completely shook my faith so now that i've got two littles a son that's three and daughter it's going to turn one um i wonder where to balance the the wonder that is the bible and that sort of to not smash it by saying this probably didn't happen the way it talks about and so where do you balance like stuff like christmas and talking about it literally and the fantasy i don't know if you ever dealt with that sort of question before or not thank you that is a fantastic question um it's one that um comes in a lot to the show and for some reason i haven't addressed yeah you know something and i boy i hope i don't upset anybody there's no real bear named winnie the pooh there's not i'm telling you now my kids at one point would have been like liar we went to disney world and we met him and we took a picture and we got his autograph isn't that weird a bear signs an autograph looking through his chin it's very creepy but like my kids went through a time in their life where they just knew winnie the pooh was real not only that like they knew ariel was a real princess because let's be honest from an evaluation of the evidence ariel has more security than the president at disney world you know what i mean like it's a reasonable conclusion that ariel is real so do like i'd bust on my kids immediately go huge dummies ariel's not real here's why here's why we tell stories like these when our brains are less developed we can't understand abstract concepts at all try to describe democracy to a two-year-old the people vote daddy good right that's it a two-year-old can't understand democracy but they can understand judges and presidents and things with what faces and so we have this collection of ancient literature that tells us about the nature and the character of god and the way that people have pursued an understanding of who god is and all these stories if you will have faces so i'm completely comfortable when it's neurologically appropriate for my children to believe moses was a real dude i don't fight back on that but when they start to grow and learn and to question and someone at school says they don't believe the bible is real guess what my child just told me they're ready for a new conversation you see what i mean so when i read the bible the amount of time i spend thinking about what's historically accurate it's not much i read stories of people of faith who like me sometimes stood outside at night and went how did this all get here and what am i supposed to do about it if something or someone made all this what's my relationship to that thing and i'll be honest in that context the bible is my jam when i read the bible as stories from people who have the same questions i have it's wonderful but that's too heady for my daughter when she was four now that she's 10 i talk about what she thought about the bible what she thinks about the bible what i understand about the bible and what other people understand but i don't build like a house of cards that's going to fall down i equip her to take her own journey of faith we should never feel guilty for putting santa claus as the face of generosity because that's how children learn that giving and sharing is important just like they understand that we're part of a faith where this god says i've put a rainbow in the clouds because you can trust me i won't flood the earth ever again [Music] my name's marie i'm the one who didn't talk loud enough in church this morning because i'm uncomfortable with public speaking unless i am teaching algebra that is the only time i'm comfortable with speaking algebra reference time to bring my again yes i'm a math teacher and i'm working on my graduate degree in math i was also raised in an incredibly conservative church so uh i actually went to one of ken ham's early early like i saw him in person and he had a overhead projector he's still got it i think okay so i feel like i got to experience kind of the beginnings of this movement and then i also was a die-hard fan of bill nye the science guy and watched him every week and i've recently kind of worked through some personal anxiety and issues that i've struggled with most of my life and i remember in my church there was always this saying of like they think science is god and then at one point it was like no god is science in the sense that if you believe god created the earth why wouldn't you celebrate all these beautiful amazing natural phenomenons that we can observe and so so often i feel like we're looking for proof when in reality from my perspective i'm looking for contradiction and i don't see any even though proof is very hard i don't see contradiction and i think so often like there seems to be this innate belief that there's a contradiction like you're a dog person or a cat person and you can't like both you know because in math when they say or it's inclusive it means either it means you can have the one or the other or both yeah and i was just curious about your opinion on that well they call me science mike i'm pretty into science and uh i travel the country talking about how i met god on the beach like a true californian so i'm pretty cool with god yeah so where's that uh why is ken ham think there is no contradiction between true science and god because what observational science completely backs up god historical science which isn't real doesn't which is like a really ridiculous arbitrary distinction and i don't really roll that because like you use historical science to believe for example that like the declaration of independence is not a forgery right you believe we can rely on an account from the past to be relevant today whatever here's where the here's the seed of the ken ham thinking sometimes the bible does contradict science like the bible really does say that trees were made before stars and astrophysicists go nah uh right like the bible calculates pie and it's wrong bibles are prong calculation of pie that was a decent not cutting world leading uh calculation of pie but like a decent approximation of pie for its era so the conflict comes when people adopt a modernist interpretation of the bible called biblical inerrancy and biblical inerrancy like ruins the bible it's like it would be as absurdist if you're like well you know what i went to the uk i could not find hogwarts those harry potter books are terrible like hey you might have just missed the points a little bit now that's not to say i am putting the bible in the category of fiction don't don't hear me wrong but my point is there are themes in the harry potter novels that are more than factually true so inerrancy was this reaction to theological liberalism where a bunch of people said that god was like a helpful idea essentially i am brutalizing that idea for the sake of time and so they said we got to get back to the fundamentals of faith and our boy martin luther said scripture is all that matters and so you've got to read the bible as understanding that god like dictated it like a boss to a secretary to these people and therefore everything in the bible was perfectly and factually accurate including the fact by the way that the entire human species came from two people one of whom was molded out of dust the other was like a really elaborate barbecue from a rib and it doesn't work and like so as i was just kind of talking about the last question like that actually takes away all the beauty and mystery and wonderful things about the bible like so the book of jeremiah contains historical inaccuracies right it does but it also contains the weeping of a man who says how can this nation the chosen people of god neglect the poor the orphan and the widow and when i turn on the news i think how can this country land of the free home of the brave neglect the poor the orphan the widow the gay the atheist the people of color the poor the uneducated and i think yeah jeremiah nailed it like he might have chronicled the numbers and figures in a couple of battles in a way that disagrees with modern anthropology woo like that's the worst thing to look for in that book and i just think the whole bible is literally but i get that some people for the thing to work for the thing to have value they need to believe the bible is inerrant so i don't like waste any energy trying to convince people who are inerrantists not to be i don't waste any energy trying to convince can handle not being ham frankly ken ham is one of the most people responsible for the success of my show by calling me dangerous to the church he sent me like 30 000 subscribers so like one of these days i'm gonna send him a thank you card and be like ken ham i could use another call of heresy you know so like there's just what i'm about what christ compels me to in my life is how do i address the hurt and the suffering and the brokenness i see that he saw when he said father forgive them they know not what they do and if and if jesus would say that about a brutal oppressive government that pushed his people to the brink and then literally executed him brutally like i'm not yet too worked up because somebody doesn't like the way i read the bible you know what i mean like that's that perspective [ \_\_ ] so i haven't followed ken ham since the 90s so i don't eat but apparently it's pretty i follow him all the time it's like i follow him like i follow fox news it's cool [Laughter] and by the way like i want to be really clear and this is one of my favorite things about my work young earth creationists listen to my show and are totally cool the ass science mic liturgist vibe is not a bunch of people who agree on stuff i think the thing that ties us all together is we say hey what if we stopped screaming at the top of our lungs and started figuring out what we can talk about civilly and no matter what we think how we can work together to make a better world and i think that's kind of gospel stuff [Music] hi my name is angela and i grew up like two miles south of here so i've lived in this area most of my life but i moved away to go to college to a christian college had a pretty similar experience of like i grew up really conservative here grew up like very biblical and errant like very literalist and all those kinds of things like grew up as a young earth creationist and a lot of things like that and then learned that it was possible to still be a christian and disagree with those things in college and that wasn't something that i knew that i could think differently and still believe that you know like god is god and jesus is jesus and jesus is the son of god and not to believe all of those things um so over the last couple years in being back here again since doing that i've interacted a lot with the church community that i grew up in and i worked in the youth ministry there and i really struggled with when is it okay for me to let high school kids know hey there's more than one way to think about this and when i should let them like come to that the way that i did um because i really struggled with that because i know that like i wouldn't have accepted that if i'd heard it in high school and it took me you know going away to college having that crisis in college to be able to see like oh there's multiple ways to think about these things and still take the bible and god seriously and so i really struggle with like when is the time to just let them get there or to say whoa like we are literally blocking the gospel from being heard by going into our biology class gearing up to argue with evolutionists like because we're literally i mean i kept people from hearing about god from being that way in high school and so i have that fear so i guess i'm just wondering what your insight is into like when do we just kind of let that path happen and when do we step in and say there's another way to think about this and you don't have to think that way but you just have to know that it's okay to think differently i think intellectual humility and if you listen to anything i do you've heard me say this a million times is admitting i am wrong about many things and i don't even know which things like that i start there in any conversation if i sense anyone thinks like and this guy is slowing down on me i go hold on just so we're clear i literally have no idea what i'm talking about this is how i sleep at night right like i'm a motorcycle concussed fragment of the universe almost infinitesimally small i mean i got lost in the atlanta airport this week and i there every other week you know what i mean so i'm never the fount of wisdom what i do is i tell people how i make it to friday that's all i can do so in my state of absolute idiocy i have learned one thing that has made communication consistently easier for me with other people and that is by following this rule before i speak i test what i'm going to say am i communicating honestly without hostility am i being honest is this my honest perspective am i trying to like put on airs am i trying to look smart am i trying to market myself if so hold the phone what's the honest thing inside me two am i being hostile in any way and i don't pass go and i don't collect 200 unless i can hit that litmus test so if i was with high school students who are saying we're gearing up for a battle with the evolution teacher i'm i would say do you think that furthers the kingdom of god and i would listen to their answer and if they convinced me i'd go fight an evolution teacher you know what i mean but if they didn't i'd share my perspective honestly with the whole thing in all humility i don't know that i know more than the high school student so i'm open to hearing new information but i'm also if i've been put in a situation where i'm supposed to teach or mentor someone in some way then yeah i'm going to give them the best i can and that means saying for example if you at your church believe evolution is false you have just encouraged people your age to not accept the gospel because that's one of the number one predictors for people that walk away from the faith or reject it in the first place so is this the hill to die on is that is this the line where you go i'm sorry the gospel is not available to you you think we were condescended from monkeys like what that's not even in the bible like that debate doesn't even exist i am all about encouraging people amidst their ignorance and their confusion to just try walking after the same guy i try to walk after there's such a danger when what i call god gives you a new perspective and you feel like you see the world better and it's bigger and it's more open and it's more loving there's a temptation to become the guru to be the enlightened one bringing light into the darkness of all these people who think we were created in six days no that's annoying my job confronted with the gospel is to radically love people to accept them where they are and to just be honest so don't waste any worry like can i tell these kids what i think of course you can they're going to have their journey either way as long as you're not trying to manipulate them as long as you're not trying to clone yourself into their brains if you host and i say this with some experience an open discussion with a lot of people you would be surprised what happens [Music] um hi i'm kristen so i guess we're we're sitting here enjoying our beers and i'm so jealous why'd you choose water just kidding brain injury but so we're sitting here enjoying our beers and then there are other people in the world who like right now they could be they could be being tortured or being enslaved and beaten or raped or or whatever um and i guess my what i'm getting at is if god is real this is a very generalized question um if god is real why aren't the people of god stepping in and doing something about it so what you're saying is that if we are the body that's such an inside joke like you had such a serious question and i literally started posting evangelical song lyrics and i feel horrible about it okay so what we're talking about is sort of an applied theodicy right the theodicy is why is there evil in the world of god is all powerful and loving that's a contradiction um and the applied theodicy is if god is real why aren't we doing anything about it so i can foresee a universe where there's a good and patient god who is like what are you guys doing um and would like to see that happen but that that's not actually where where i roll um so what you just did is you allowed your compassion for someone which is a good thing to engage your creative problem-solving which is your prefrontal cortex which is another good thing to solve a logical problem okay here's the thing about god as i understand it now uh logic never works with god and i say that with some authority leaning into neuroscience the way god happens in your brain the way you experience god is literally incompatible with logic it turns out that way back in church history when the eastern church the greeks got really really upset when the romans took logic and applied it to god and they said you guys you can't do that we invented logic that's not what it's meant for and the first great schism happened i actually think neuroscience backs up the greeks that god is something we know by experience and the job of church tradition is to keep rails on it so we don't follow that experience off a cliff right i think the orthodox have beautiful theology there here's the problem we want a logical solution to problems if god is real why are we the church not do anything about it and what i think is the experience of god challenges me to do something about it see what i mean so like the wise if you're not careful a noble intent can become a reason you find cynicism and then put action in neutral while you work on the problem and what i have found consistently in my life is god is found only through dirty hands that i discover god not when i figure out the most elegant solution to a logical problem not when i have an invigorating theological discussion with a friend but when i sit across the table from a paranoid schizophrenic homeless man and we eat together and i treat him like a normal person as he dribbles gravy into his beard i meet god face to face in that moment now here's the deal that makes no sense right that's logically absurd it's inelegant i would flunk seminary and i don't care because i have literally gone to a restaurant and bought a ton of food and gone to picnic tables or i know homeless people hang out and spend the afternoon and found the gospel there i've learned god is not a rubik's cube it's not my job to get all the green on one side and then discover god but god is instead this beautiful crisp autumn afternoon that invites me to experience the world and when i do i find suffering really soon and the joy i have in finding that god face to face compels me to do everything i possibly can to attack unnecessary suffering in this species and frankly lately in all of life so your impulse is good there's a problem how do i solve it but what i think is we shift away from a systematic solution to a logical problem of god and instead resurrect jesus by acting like he did [Music] so earlier you mentioned the kingdom of god it's kind of a two-part question what is the kingdom of god for you i knew you were going to hate this one and then number two you sure you want to ask me about like quantum physics well well number two is how does that change with our current ecological crisis um because usually a kingdom of god is very the conservative view is that it's very heavenly but then it's there's been more of a here and now earthly type of thing while the earth doesn't exist how does that change what is the kingdom of god so i'm pretty sure this answer is going to be terrible but um and here's what like so my gig is i admit it when like i haven't i haven't thought about that a lot so you're literally getting the first thing a concussed brain has invested in that i probably haven't pondered what the kingdom of god is in eight months um but when i think about the way jesus spoke of the kingdom of god um and what the kingdom of god was like and they also always spoke that the kingdom of god was what near that's a long time ago so jesus was obviously lying and i should cancel my podcast or that near was not in a temporal sense and was instead in a metaphysical sense and i'm really uncomfortable with metaphysics but what i think we always have this choice between an evolutionary impetus to serve self and to take care of our own needs or a conflicting and more recent evolutionary impetus to build community and create safety for us all and i think when we talk about the sin nature we talk about the tension between the limbic system and the neocortex the serpent that whispers looks a lot like an amygdala that's afraid you won't have enough and uh the voice of the holy spirit is much more like the anterior cingulate cortex that says i know what it's like to need and i don't want to see someone else be in need so i think when jesus talks about the kingdom of god what jesus is doing is inviting humanity into neocortical thinking take that seminary uh jesus is is speaking a language frankly really early in history like i don't know if you know this he predates the new age movement where he's saying the kingdom of heaven is like this and every time he does he he shifts the perspective out towards wholeness and towards connection and towards grace and towards forgiveness and towards the neocortex and so i think we talked the kingdom of god we're talking about the best potential of humanity to act like christ who i believe in some weird way i don't understand was an incarnation of god it means that this mystery i don't understand how to face for a while so that even i can understand it and he seems to invite us if jesus is like god then to be like god seems to be to be invited into neocortical thinking and to on an ongoing basis surrender the limbic desire to serve self at the expense of others by the way what i'm not talking about is you climbing up on a cross and crucifying yourself that's the danger of this language so on the one hand i say don't serve self but i'm also not talking about listen like um i love talking to you guys i blew out of a church server this morning because i have a brain injury right to serve you for the next 20 years i had to take a break and let my neurons rest this morning even though that's not real how i roll you see what i'm saying it's a critical distinction even jesus got in a boat and went away sometimes but the kingdom of god being near is an invitation saying guess what in any moment you can make the world a place of peace the jewish idea of shalom or you cannot now that might be an overly simplified theologians are wretching as i listen to the show right now idea the kingdom of god but as a pragmatist as someone who lost god completely and became an atheist the stuff that excites me most about the faith is not what could happen after we die but what could happen if we actually choose to live [Music] i'm amanda i'm just wanted to say thanks for all you do i feel like um just there's so much freedom in being able to think the way that you inspire people to think so i really appreciate that um i wanted to ask about something that um was on the liturgist podcast like couple weeks ago inside baseball i love it the the thin one so yeah you had mentioned something about um satan being more of an idea than a being um and so i was just i've had a few conversations um in the last couple weeks about about that and wanting to explore more so i was wondering um if you could expand on that a little bit okay easy question let's talk about the memetic satan so let's be really clear like um that's a philosopher french philosopher theologian named his last name is girard and i'd never heard of that before that podcast so like my mind was blown like at the exact same time yours was because like four weeks ago i was like the devil that's not a thing like that's just that's biblical imagery to talk about our dark side um and why michael successfully convinced me that the devil is more than the dark side of individuals is by using the word mimetic meaning memetic is sociological software that doesn't run on one person but runs on lots of people and i i there's this book i love called the honest truth about dishonesty it's an amazing book you should read it if you haven't already and basic it posits that all humans through research have a need to self-identify as good but that most humans can make small frequent moral transgressions and still see themselves as good and that means that the biggest problems we face there's no like secret illuminati driving that it's us why why do we say that uh america is a systematically racist country cause it is but it's not because there's like um believe it or not and that i'm gonna stand by this statement the guys burning black churches aren't the main problem they're an obvious problem so they make a good scapegoat and they should stop and go to jail but the real problem is a systematic unthinking unconscious function wherein white people live in white neighborhoods and raise property values totally on accident right i want to move to los angeles and what do i do i go on zillow and i look at school zone ratings because what i have privilege i want my kids to be what privilege and guess what i do by doing that i deprive poor schools of tax income i was walking through a neighborhood recently in brooklyn with a friend and it was a black neighborhood and this person this friend of mine was nervous because they were rough looking people and i told my friend i said listen they're afraid of us and my friend was like what and i said we're colonists we come into poor neighborhoods and we gentrify them and the next thing you know they have to move out of their house because they can't afford the rent and they're the least able to find new lodging because at the bottom of the economic ladder that's mimetic satan that is the unthinking automatic actions of people who are just trying to get paycheck to paycheck and are not evil but out of that collective sleeping comes the accuser and so the kingdom of god invites us to wake up and say guess what maybe the fact that in most cities in america a quarter of the children go to bed hungry more than three nights a week is more important than your child's systematic test score whoa guys that's the gospel the gospel is waking up and saying in what ways do my automatic unthinking actions shut other people out because what you saw over and over and over in the stories of this man jesus was someone who went to the most poor the most depressed and the most marginalized and said i'm with you the person that white americans claim to follow went to a samaritan woman alone had a frank open conversation with her and invited her into his kingdom i dare say and i don't care if this is controversial that today that story would make more sense told as a black trans atheist someone that far out of who the religious say is okay and jesus said hold on there with me so that's the memetic satan i think it limits satan to picture a guy with horns and a pitchfork because it's actually much more insidious much more evil and much more a part of all of us than anything as simple as lucifer so thank you everybody it's been so great talking to you this week i want to let you know that ask science mike would love to come to your community you can go to sciencemike.com and learn more about that i also want to let you know in the coming weeks i'd love to see you in storyline in chicago uh like to see you in london at belong if you're curious about where i might be going just go to ask sciencemike.com and click on events thanks for listening everybody and i'll see you next week [Applause] [Music] [Applause]