Episode 99 - The God Question

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hey richard rohr does god exist [Music] first of all i think we've not helped the conversation by making it a question of proving if god exists or god doesn't exist it becomes highly theoretical theological dualistic abstract i think god is only known experientially and you don't move people toward inner experience you certainly don't move people toward deep inner experience by stating the question that way does god exist because it lends itself to a dualistic answer and experience is much more subtle than that didn't get a real clear yes or no from the mystical franciscan monk about whether or not god exists hey christian scholar and author diana butler bass does god exist you know that's a really funny question because i never really thought about it i was one of those people who simply have assumed god my whole life felt the presence of something that was beyond my own experience beyond words and that's what god is so the question of god's existence is not one that i've ever really stopped to consider i think of other questions around god like where is god or why does god allow certain kinds of things happen but the existence of god that just hasn't been my question well i feel like i'm kind of striking out here maybe i'll ask my dear friend science mike he's always good for a clear answer mike does god exist i think both my google search history and my amazon purchase history would attest how much i've wrestled with the question does god exist i mean honestly my entire work emerged from struggling with that question as an evangelical christian and as i reflected upon the question over time and as i contemplate the notion of god's existence today i don't actually understand the question anymore does god exist because there's a subtext when we ask does god exist and that subtext is that there is some agreed upon definition for who or what god is and i simply don't believe that that agreement exists i mean what god are you asking me uh the existence of are you asking me the existence of uh the greek pantheon or the roman pantheon a mighty zeus sitting on mount olympus looking over the world certainly i would say that god does not exist if that's the god you're talking about are you talking about a god as depicted in the old testament literally sitting upon a throne and judging the world as worthy or unworthy well no i don't believe that that god exists either but if you're talking about uh the god of pantheism that the universe itself exists then i would say it's quite likely that the god of pantheism exists the god of spinoza or of einstein a divine ordering to the way the universe unfolds i find quite likely to exist in fact i would say that if i say that i exist then i would say that a god cosmic and universal would also exist as well so in order to answer the question does god exist i've got to ask you to tell me which god you're asking about and then i'll tell you how likely i estimate that particular god's existence to be fundamentally there are two notions when we talk about god and other matters of certainty are people gnostic or are they agnostic do they have a high degree of confidence or certainty or do they think that the question is difficult or impossible to answer as an agnostic would and on that continuum i consider myself agnostic as in ignore rent in other words the terms involved in the question are far too loosely defined to have a meaningful discussion does god exist you tell me which god you're talking about and then we can talk okay fair enough let's ask within some specific traditions then how about we start with a jewish perspective this is dr amy jill levine if you want to look at a jewish perspective then you have to remember that the perspective is a jewish perspective jews are not just a religion we never settle down to be a religion we're a people with uh we claim a common ancestry from abraham isaac and jacob a common language hebrew a common homeland israel so therefore we're kind of like americans and in the same way you could go up to any american and say what do you think about god and you get a myriad of different answers it would also be the case with jews so some jews are atheists and some jews are true believers and some jews are agnostic and some jews are believers on tuesdays and thursdays you know like other people so i have to start by saying i can't give you the jewish view i can only give you my jewish view um i'm not a theist i've never had a strong palpable sense of some supernatural presence if that's how one wants to describe god this universal benevolent force i've not felt it i'm fascinated with the idea and i'm fascinated by people who claim to have that experience but it's never been part of my own self so when i think about god i tend to think about god as god is understood by particular traditions how does my methodist student understand god how does my unitarian student understand god how does my jewish student understand god and more how does the bible understand god so for me as an historian and as somebody interested in ethics when people claim to believe in god what's the god that they're claiming and more important how does their belief in god influence what they do i think this is fun i hope you're having as much fun as i am how about a buddhist perspective hey sharon salzburg renowned buddhist teacher does god exist well in the buddhist tradition they say that when the buddha was asked about god the presence or the absence of god he remains silent [Music] cool cool thanks buddhism all right well maybe i can get a little straighter answer from best-selling author and religious scholar reza does god exist it's so funny to me how this word god which of all the words in the english language is the one that is most variable is also the one that we all assume means the same thing for every person and we have this conversation all the time where we say do you believe in god yes or no as though we all mean the same thing by god and we don't you know so to me the question of whether god exists or not that's a that's not a rational question it's not a question that requires a rational response because faith is a choice it's an emotion and emotions are not rational they're experiential but the larger question itself i think is problematic and it's something that we should probably just stop asking all together and instead ask a far more fundamental and far more important question what do you mean by god you know as i read the mystics and the saints once again this is richard rohr the holy ones throughout history and all of the world religions who speak so naturally about god you can tell it's much more an inner experience an inner dialogue an inner presence an inner awareness and you you don't get to that inner awareness by deciding whether uh god exists as if it's up to you to decide because even to decide god does exist is usually to limit it to your undoubtedly simplistic understanding of god at that moment and i don't think even though many minds much greater than mine have tried to prove it i don't think you can prove the existence of god nor do you need to i think you simply need to be open to presence and to an inner dialogue that that is initiated by that experience of presence so uh you know john of the cross one of our great catholic mystics he says god can never be known by the mind but only by love now that might sound to the modern postmodern person like a a sentimental statement i don't think it is when you see how john of the cross understands love and it's an inner movement an inner flow an inner give and take it's the experience of being addressed and responding to that inner voice i know that that kind of language has been sentimentalized a lot and has made us lose respect for it but i think for those who say with some comfort and calm that god does exist they're invariably people who are who find themselves inside of that inner dialogue and it's an inner dialogue and i'll stop on this that they know they are not initiating uh they're responding that's the key that who is this initiator who is this uh who is addressing me one feels oneself not just addressed but addressed with respect and with love that's the only existence of god that i think is worth proving or asserting this is all fascinating isn't it so many different perspectives and approaches to a simple question let's check in with the other co-hosts of the liturgist podcast william matthews and hilary mcbride does god exist i'd like to think so i think what a wonderful idea that creation isn't just random but it's a masterfully sculpted divine intention i think it's a funny question because to me asking if god exists is like asking what universe is next to us then i just we just don't know right like we don't know beyond what we can see sense and tell i like to think that god exists i was told god existed i like to think it's true um james baldwin says one of my favorite quotes of this he says if the concept of god has any validity or any use it can only be to make us larger freer and more loving if god cannot do this then it's time we got rid of him i love that quote because if god exists then it must be something that frees and liberates us versus something that takes away from us or oppresses or suppresses us um does god exist yeah i think so i believe that god exists but that's easier to believe as my definition of god expands i need to be clear that i'm speaking about this as a person situated in a place and time not as a scholar or clinician not as a researcher not as a theologian i grew up in a family that believed in god and had community and cultural heritage that believes in god and so it was the part of the fabric of my connection with people my heritage and my family and culturally to name that force that held everything together as god i remember as a kid finding it hard to pray to nothing so i constructed this idea of god based on a lot of what i'd heard at church my limited critical thinking skills and understanding this god was a grandfatherly figure with a floating head who would hover in my bedroom at the ceiling in the corner while i also knew on some level that that didn't make sense it made more sense than imagining words flowing into an abyss of nothingness if not here in the room with me where was god then i started to think more critically and i understood this image of god to have been helpful for a time but more like maple leaf sometime in high school i was struck by the idea that god was bigger than our stories i was going to church where i was told that we can make idols of our constructions of god and i realized that expecting god to be something or to show up in a certain way would look like this metaphor or that metaphor might actually be a way of constructing god in my image so when i prayed i'd often start by praying something along the lines of god i'm so sorry that i need to picture you in this specific way to connect with you but right now it's really too hard to imagine connecting with something that is everything and has no form and yet is form itself it was a lot then when i was around 17 i had this experience that shifted my understanding and experience of god i decided for a few months that i didn't want to go to church with my family to try and be with god through and for myself not through the mouth or ideas of someone else and just to see what would happen so while my family went to church i'd lay on the living room floor sometimes i'd read scripture and other times i'd just pray over and over again the words of moses in exodus 33 show me your glory it's hard to explain and i feel reluctant to try but one sunday morning the only way to describe it is to say that i think that it happened i felt myself have an encounter with an unexplainable force so profoundly intense i became overwhelmed and actually got up and ran out of the house and onto the street in my bare feet it was so intense such a thick sensation too immediate like being swept up into a hurricane or hit by a massive wave it was almost intolerable the part that confused me was that it moved in my body first the series of sensations that showed up interreceptively and then after that on the surface of my skin the scholar in me wishes that i could give you some sort of concrete proof some empirical evidence some way of explaining the things that i know and believe and have experienced but i guess this is where i have to rely on my narrative and my felt sense not to imply that that isn't valid on some level but i know that because of phenomenology and my phenomenological perspective that each of us have different experiences and different filled senses and so what feels real and known and certain to me might not for someone else i guess i don't really know what to say except that i believe that god exists but i also know i've been trained to look to see god everywhere and have a context in which doing so is rewarded in a way of connecting with others but when you believe as i do that god is everywhere and that god is love and that god is kind of includes everything so the easier question then becomes where is god not and what is god not instead of asking if god is [Music] it's normal at so many different points in our life to feel like something is getting in the way of being present or happy something stopping us from achieving the goals that we have for ourselves or feeling connected to the people that we love better help will assess your needs and match you with your own licensed professional therapist to help you work on all those things you can connect with someone in a safe and private online environment for that reason it's so convenient you don't even have to leave the house you can start working with someone in under 24 hours when working with someone through betterhelp you can send a message to your counselor at any time and get a timely and thoughtful response plus you can schedule weekly video and phone sessions betterhelp has licensed professional counselors who are specialized in treating things like depression anxiety navigating family conflicts and so much more they're committed to facilitating great therapeutic matches so they make it easy and free to change counselors if needed anything you share with your counselor is confidential so many people have been using better help that they're recruiting additional counselors in all 50 states start living a happier life today as a listener you get 10 off your first month by visiting betterhelp.com liturgists join over 1 million people taking care of their mental health again it's betterhelp h-e-l-p-com liturgists uh seems like does god exist maybe is not the best question i think a far more important question is what do you mean by god great richard i think first of all we have to see god much more as a verb than a noun now christianity should have been prepared for that because it said that god was was a dynamic flow between three we made it a mathematical conundrum problem one three three one but what it's really saying is god is relationship itself god is a relationship god is communion god is a flow god is an energy now if that sounds pagan or dangerous to some christians uh i refer to paul's famous sermon to the athenians on the areopagus where he describes god in acts 17 as the one in whom we live and move and have our very being so do you see where he's sending them and he's talking to intellectuals in a language they can respect he's describing god not as a being but being itself that's very different and that's what i mean when i say god is much more a verb than a noun now even though in formal orthodox christian theology we we have made that assertion that god is trinity or communion itself uh to be perfectly honest the doctrine of the trinity has had very little effect on most christianity most christianity most christians are for all practical purposes monotheists and not trinitarian so what trinity is saying is that the very shape of unity is diversity that divine unity is diversity overcome and entered into uh that the shape of one is three now that's a different way for western people to think because we're dualistic thinkers but i hope it's a bit of an answer and that's all it is a bit of an answer to your question who is god god is the one in whom we live and move and have our very being and all things have their being animals plants everything that we call living is participating in that being [Music] once again this is historian author and scholar diana butler bass who or what is god god is at the very least two things and that is compassion and creativity the scripture that i hold to the jewish christian scriptures say that god is love and that i hold to be the truest thing i know about god god is love that god is all consuming passion compassion for and with everything but there's something else that god is as well and that is god is creator but i don't think of god as creator as in a noun but rather god is this endless creative energy that's at the center of the whole of the universe and that pulses out constantly that it's always making and remaking everything that is love and creation love and creativity always go together it's what is represented i think in in human love is that when two people love each other the creative impulse is there and we make new life we whether that is new life in the bringing of children into the world or or new life in making a relationship that is full of the possibilities that were not present before love drew us together so that's what god is [Music] what most of us mean by god is basically a divine version of ourselves once again this is reza aslan we are cognitively designed to conceive of god to imagine god as a reflection of ourselves to impose on god our own ideas our own motivations our own emotions our own attributes both positive and negative and then to construct essentially a divine being that is little more than a reflection of ourselves as as humans a super human being but without human limitations but i think that that's a vacuous way of thinking about god it's a limiting way of thinking about god i think that if we dehumanize god and instead think of god less as a divine personality and more as the animating force of the universe as the sum of all creation i think that not only does that provide a much deeper spiritual experience but i think it also creates the opportunity to create um links between religions to go past the sort of external shells of religions and to get at something much deeper that we have in common that is often buried by our adherence to specific creeds or dogmas [Music] here's science mike my theology is ambiguous at best but i have to admit that spiritual experiences are important to me i'd even say that they're fundamental to how i experienced the world and a few years ago i stopped believing in any version of god at all i became an atheist and that was a really tough transition for me at first because i'd always understood god to be a personal god a being cosmic in power who knew understood and loved me personally and i have to admit i delighted in knowing god in a personal way but a god a personal cosmic god raises all sorts of troubling questions about how the universe behaves and and why there's so much suffering within it so for many reasons i let go of my belief in the god i believed in unfortunately i had a mystical experience where i felt like i was in god's presence i saw god quite literally as a light floating in the air before me that came close and allowed me to feel the divine breath the very presence of god in my surroundings in my heart and my experience and it was beautiful and it confused the hell out of me it made me realize how much i'd missed feeling a connection with the divine as an atheist here's the problem trying to connect with god again was very difficult for me because most ideas i saw about god and the world's great faith traditions were so wildly improbable and so poorly supported by evidence that i couldn't attempt spiritual practice or communion with the divine without feeling so self-conscious that i had to stop i could not talk to a god that i found to be ridiculous so i searched for an understanding of god that my mind could get on board with something that didn't seem implausible in a modern cosmological understanding of reality this is what i came up with god is at least the natural forces that created and sustained the universe as experienced via a psychosocial model in human brains that naturally emerges from our innate biases now that's a pretty limited and i'd even say materialistic view of the divine the natural forces that einstein would speak of that allow the universe to be but that alone is not what humanity talks about when it speaks of god because there's a reverence there's uh notions of of divine encounters and divine intervention and so those fundamental forces behind reality aren't god until they're experienced by a conscious being a being who through multiple means of of cognitive structures comes to see meaning and purpose in the natural world around it beings like me so while my theology may be very limited and even materialistic it allows me to establish a baseline of reasonable expectation that i'm not a fool or wasting my time when i contemplate god and when i sink communion with the divine my physical idea of god opens my heart to the divine presence and allows me to experience a mystical union with what we call god and that's good enough for me today because spiritual experiences are important to me and i do love to feel that divine breath god can't be put in a box or at least the jewish and christian tradition tells us that god can't be put in a box once again this is dr amy jill levine in the book of exodus when moses meets this burning bush which turns out to be god and moses says well tell me your name because we've been in slavery for 400 years and it's been a while if god had simply said you know my name is fred or my name is susan or my name is shatika everything would have been fine but god responds in hebrew which means i will be what i will be there's a freedom there so as soon as we say who is god we're automatically constraining and we get that same image in the gospel of john when jesus talks about the spirit and he says look the spirit blows will where it will you can't box it in so who's god depends upon who's asking when you're asking what text you happen to be reading and who you personally are you know i think we can understand again this is sharon salzberg what's meant by god in other traditions in a couple of different ways one is the really vast interconnection of all beings of all of life that even though we may feel very alone and cut off the reality is that we are part of a greater fabric of life each of us and no one left out and the corollary perspective of that is that everybody counts and everybody matters um the kind of the life lesson of that is that we we could be responding to one another differently with a great deal of compassion really feeling we need to take care of one another because we do um and that the kind of construct of self and other and us and them which we live under which can be a useful construct in some contexts is just a construct and that the deeper reality is is not you and me it's kind of we and and that's what's true and i think there is something of divinity in that complete sense of connection and then the other thing is what we call sometimes jokingly the unwords the unborn the undying the unconditioned that there is in life uh not just what we see before us coming and going and uh through the five senses um but the sixth sense and buddhist tradition of the mind um you know it's not just uh kind of that dualistic perspective of subject and object but within that almost like shining through we can glimpse um that which is uh more uh luminous or um uh has the nature of the un you know unborn undying uh it's like we glimpse that just in in the circumstances of life and and the benefit of that is that we don't then feel so bound or de defined by the circumstances of life we go through ups and downs and and they hurt or they're you know joyous or whatever it might be but um we also know that uh this is not all that everything on that level is changing and that um we can in a way be held by another kind of knowledge here's william matthews what is god if not everything and more like god in the particular found in the hidden in the subatomic as well as the universal right like god in everything god and moon sky sea tree [Music] air what is god if not absolute love if not the dream of the universe if not the the spirit that is pushing all things forward everything within evolution everything within our lives everything within our psyches what is what is god if not the very dynamism that crafted the cosmos and is perpetually moving all things forward who is god i think god is in the person i often ignore i think god is in the god is in the god is in the space that feels mundane god is in the excitement that i feel when i see someone that i love who is god i see god in the face of christ in the face of jesus i also see christ in the face of my neighbor in the face of the poor in the face of dare i even say my enemy i see christ or i see god on the lynching tree i see god in in history standing with jews during the holocaust i see god with us in and through time and space often in places we don't think he's or she is in that's what i think about god this is hilary mcbride again my phenomenological experience tells me that god is real and i'm still so young to think i know it all so ask me again in a year from now my answer may change as i experience more of god in life and continue to pull apart my understandings and piece others back together again so today here is what i believe about god god is god is love god is the mystery that holds it all together and moves it forward god is like breath and is as close to us as breath and is the animating force of life [Music] at these moments in the christian scriptures when god shows up when a kind of joining of divine and human happens when new life takes place there is always breath we see it in the creation poem and when jesus is last with his disciples and gives them the spirit there is breath there there is something about the waking up the breath the coming to life the animating that says god is here god is the source and god is the force that moves everything forward towards love and restoration and flourishing i believe that god is in each of us that all things have god in them the force the thing the movement that brings us to life and brings us into fullness that moves us into connection with ourselves and others in the earth right now i don't believe that we are god because i still also think that god is not a lot of things but what i do keep coming back to is that god is that god is the is-ness in many ways i'm still trying to piece together the story of who god is but it doesn't feel scary or confusing more like an adventure or like being on a treasure hunt i get one clue and it leads me to something which takes me closer and closer over time to another something and then realizing when i step back that the treasure hunt is all happening within god or because of god or is actually god and it's god in me that made me seek out the treasure in the first place [Music] when using phenomenology as a research methodology something happens called the hermeneutic circle this happens during analysis the interpretation and analysis of a phenomena or an experience happens by moving between the parts and the hole we see a part of something and then it shapes our story of the whole [Music] and as we expand our understanding of the whole it changes how we see the parts we see the parts differently and in this kind of treasure hunt i feel like this happens that as i'm on the journey to see the hole the parts look different the parts look a little bit more like the whole thing and it makes the parts more beautiful and when i do that it changes my understanding of the whole but right now the thing that i can come back to with certainty is that god is like breath and like the thing that is driving you forward and me forward the thing that unites us in our story the being that wakes us up into more and more life it seems to me that regardless of the tradition that we come from god is most often a word that we use to try to speak about what cannot be spoken about just as a single wave cannot contain the entire ocean that gives rise to that wave a human mind cannot contain the infinite in which minds arise but if i've found anything to say about the unspeakable ocean of mystery that many of us enjoy calling god it is that there is no distance between you and it i like how saint paul said it in his letter to the romans from her through her and to her are all things that's my paraphrase so for me this podcast was an absolute joy because i got to listen to god speaking about god god loving god wrestling with god doubting god how marvelous is that i hope you enjoyed it as much as i did thanks so much to our guests thanks so much to our patrons to corey pig for helping schedule all those amazing people i've been your host and narrator today michael gunger thanks to on earth which is tyler chester and myself we make a lot of the music that is used on this podcast and today i used some music from tom crouch who goes by the name liminal in his artistry as well thanks so much for listening everybody you