Peppers and Paprika

July 3rd 2022

Liz

Hello and welcome to Bread and thread a podcast about food and domestic history. I'm Liz.

hazel

I'm Hazel, we are two friends who studied archaeology together and love history and making things from history and also not. And we normally like to start by talking about the things we have been making and or baking recently. So what have you been up to? Before we get to the main topic?

Liz

I had surgery and couldn't sit for two weeks, so I've not done a lot

hazel

not conducive to crafting and or baking.

Liz

Really not. Although I did make some nice chocolate chunk macha muffins.

hazel

Oh, that sounds so good. You say that just offhand? Like, yeah, I had surgery. But I did make these muffins.

Liz

Surgery was like two weeks ago, it's over with

the muffins by the way, are June's patron recipe. (ah) well, because I used my share of the Patreon money to sponsor a tea tree in Kyoto (that is adorable). It seemed an appropriate use of it. And also, I love tea. So I was thinking about green tea a lot because they send you three kinds of Sencha. (they do. amazing) So I was like, Hey, I should bake with matcha. Again, it's been ages. And then I made chocolate chunk macha muffins because you got to put chocolate in a matcha thing to make Nick want to eat it. But apparently, apparently Nick does like them as well. So I'll be making them again.

hazel

How did the flavors go together?

Liz

It's really good. If you use a dark chocolate, then it kind of complements the earthiness of matcha. Okay, and then the matcha like lifts the chocolate a little bit. It's It's very good. Highly recommend.

hazel

Yeah, you're making me want to try it. I've never baked with matcha before. I'm not even sure I've properly had it. So yeah,

Liz

well, the recipe is now on the Patreon for anyone who gives us at least five pounds a month, and hazel has access to the Patreon so hazel can make the muffins

hazel

I do I do, because I'm also the person who makes the podcast, as you will know, because I'm on it. Right?

Liz

What have you been up to?

hazel

Um, what have I been up to? I've just finished a practical placement for my uni course. So I have only just had time again. I did. Yeah, I've been doing various bits of like knitting and stuff. Oh, how can I forget, I joined a reenactment group. And I made my first medieval dress. So that happened, I'll pop a picture. I'll pop a picture of that. On the torso when it's finished. I still have all the hand finishing to do but I went to the group founders house and she was lovely. And she showed me how to make it's like a kettle so that over dress that I've made it's made up

Liz

well, is that the one people actually see if it's the overdress.

hazel

Yeah, so there's your like shift, which is the linen under layer, and then the Yeah, that the outer layer that you wear is the capital. And then I think sometimes there's another layer overlap, but I'm not doing that. It's so it's pretty heavy. It's like a woolen fabric. And I think I'm gonna have to top my head because it's HS keep tripping over it. But I'm currently sewing eyelets for the lacing in the front. And yeah, it should be good. It's a nice sort of terracotta shade. It's actually a naturally dyed fabric, which is fun. It's a matter matter day. So yeah, yeah, I'll pop up the picture on Twitter was done when I have my outfit because I still need to make the shift and like, think my hair and stuff. Yes, I'm excited to attend my first reenactment event in August 1 weekend of August. So yeah, I I'm gonna get to like dress up and do crafts, like the whole weekend and talk about them to people and it's just gonna be great.

Liz

That's very cool. Yeah.

hazel

And then I did a bit of sometimes I get random urges to do like, fancy dinner. I don't need to explain this to you. I'm sure you get it but yeah, but I decided I was and I don't know why I decided this menu would go together but we have lots of cherries from the garden. So I did. The dessert was scones with Have a homemade cherry composites, which actually went very well because they were the kind of yellow cherries. So yeah, that was good, very sort of nice sweetness. And then I decided to try and make chicken shawarma for the main having never done that. Yeah, it was quite random combination, but I'm not sure if I succeeded on that because I mean, obviously it's not like real shawarma because it's not cooked on the I think they like sort of cook it, like rotating it on the spin. But it was an approximation based on what I could find on the internet. It tasted quite nice. So unlike a rice pilaf, or with a very good anyway, that's basically it. Yeah. So what is our main topic today may ask.

Liz

So initially it was going to be paprika. But there's there's not a lot to say about paprika specifically. So went down a little rabbit hole. And I'm going to be talking about capsicum annum which is the plant from which we get bell peppers, chili peppers and paprika.

hazel

Wow. So is it like the original progenitor of all of those things?

Liz

Yeah, it's it's the species that those are all cultivars of

hazel

amazing. Do you want to explain why we are talking about paprika at this time?

Liz

Because everyone on tumblr is reading Dracula. I am entirely Pro. I love gothic literature. Dracula is one of my favorite books. But the the meme is pretty much dead at this point. But as explained, this episode had to be delayed a little bit early on where Jonathan Harker, you know, is in the village near Dracula's castle and he's like I everyone is being really weird. Also, this paprika chicken dish is delicious. And I must get the recipe for my fiance. And then everyone was making jokes about paprika, for instance. And I go curious like. What what is paprika? And then I fell down a little research rabbit hole.

hazel

I love it when that happens from just like you think, oh, would be funny to do an episode on this right now. And then knowledge.

Liz

Well, it's I mean, it's it's the neuro divergence is going hmmm i have a very specific question. Four hours later.

hazel

I have wondered about it though before because I've eaten a lot of delicious European paprika dishes, and sort of wondered why where they all came from. So (it's good) . Yeah, it is. It's, it's one of the best spices.

Liz

Okay. So paprika comes from the capsicum annum plant it's dried and ground up peppers, or it's the fruit of this plant. Basically Sweet. Sweet paprika. Is the sweet pepper spicy paprika spicy peppers

hazel

i wondered what the distinction was.

Liz

So the word paprika does actually come from the word pepper. So let's start by just talking about the actual capsicum annum. Okay. Yeah, start from the very beginning. So capsicum is a genus. It's another nightshade plant. So I think you can guess where in the world it comes from?

hazel

I can't actually, I've probably forgotten

Liz

the Americas. Same as the nightshade, tomato and potato.

hazel

Oh, so they're all related. Wow.

Liz

Yeah, they're all they're all in the same family.

hazel

That is a delicious family.

Liz

It is a delicious family, which also includes Bella Donna also contains aubergines apparently. Yeah, the capsicum plant is thought to have been domesticated in central Mexico. Although there are some, some people who think the spicy domestication - because with it being chilies and peppers, because for our North American audience, in Britain, peppers is what you call capsicums or sweet peppers. And then we just call the spicy ones chilies. So the spicy domestication is thought to have been in Bolivia by some people. And then the sweet in Mexico. There's evidence of them being eaten in Ecuador. This is chilis specifically from at least 7500 BC.

hazel

Oh, wow. That was a long time ago,

Liz

which makes them one of the oldest domesticated foods in the southern hemisphere. (oh), just pretty cool.

hazel

Yeah, didn't know they were that ancient a taste.

Liz

And then they spread to Panama by 3500 BC. The Andes by 2000. So they they're spread fairly quickly, I would say because I think we've seen from the other South American stuff, we've looked at the things to spread relatively slowly on that continent, presumably just because it's harder to travel larger distances with all of the mountains in the northern part of South America

hazel

maybe they weret so delicious. It was just got to take these with me.

Liz

And they were just really into the spice. Yeah spread to the Bahamas as well. So off the mainland of the continent, that's about 1000 ad whatever you get. So all members of this genus contain capsaicin, which is named for

is that the bit that makes it spicy

that is that is bit that makes it spicy (mmm) which is one of those instances of plant evolves thing to stop it being eaten and then humans go Oh, I like how this hurts most mammals and insects will not eat things with capsaicin, birds like it. The bright colors attract them and then they eat the fruit and spread the seeds. Most mammals will not eat the spicy chicken was like the spicy because we are a terrible monster species spicy for a very long time.

hazel

Well, it's clearly not doing us any harm. I like the idea that birds like spicy food as well. Imagine some sparrows turkey into a good curry.

Liz

So they will peppers and chili peppers, especially were used in some traditional medicines. And capsaicin actually does show up in modern medicines as well. Especially as an analgesic. Interestingly,

hazel

remind me what that means?

Liz

painkiller (ah) Especially used as a topical one. There's some when you know when you get the creams to like put on your joints and they warm, warm the joint and that's when to deal with the pain that Oh yeah), that's often capsaicin. All right. It being called a pepper specifically is unfortunately where Columbus shows up.

hazel

Is it a confusion with actual pepper?

Liz

It is because you know, he thought it was an India he was given something spicy. So he goes ah this is pepper obviously.

hazel

Another classic Columbus blunder.

Liz

Yeah, that's where we're putting it.

And yes, future expeditions to South America since you have brought both peppers and chilis over. They became popular a lot faster than things like potatoes and tomatoes. Did I don't think we've done a tomato. We should.

hazel

Oh, okay. Yeah, I thought you might have that's actually surprisingly quickly for something for like a new food to catch on, especially when it sinks spicy.

Liz

Yeah, Columbus was 1490. And by the 1600s we have large scale cultivation of Capsicum annum in Europe, and especially shows up in parts of Africa as well.

hazel

So shame it took until 1983 for the Red Hot Chili Peppers to be widely cultivated. Eyyy.

Liz

Yeah. Unfortunately, I can't find information on where exactly in Africa it was because the source for this is 1838. But chilies being used for things like gout, and diptheria shows up gargling chilies for scarlet fever.

hazel

Oh, wow. I mean that that certainly makes you feel something.

Liz

It also shows up in Ayurvedic medicine, which has a system not dissimilar to the humoral medicine. The capsicum annum is classified as dry light and sharp in terms of using it as medicine. (ok that makes sense) which does actually match where it's it sits in humoral medicine because spicy things go on under choleric foods, which kind of makes sense, honestly, because spicy foods tend to be also the kinds of foods that make you more prone to like acid reflux.

hazel

All right, but they do also give you that like, that kind of like happy feeling, I guess, like the, you know, when you eat chili and it's really spicy, but then afterwards like you feel good.

Liz

Well, it's, it's opposite to phlegmatic is choleric, so then that makes sense. That sort of it's stimulating. I mean, to see terms of helping to balance phlegmatic, I don't know about you, but when I ate something really spicy like my eyes and nose start running. Which I'm sure they would say is the excess phlegm leaving the body.

hazel

That's one way to put it.

Liz

I mean, I'm just saying I can see where they were coming from. (Yeah). But yeah, we have evidence of peppers being grown in Hungary as early as 1569 (wow). cause it was it was very popular with the Ottomans. Again sweet and spicy but particularly sweet variety. Yeah, we have accounts of it being grown in Budapest

hazel

. Okay, so this is where it comes into Eastern Europe.

Liz

Yeah, it's the whole Ottoman Empire very into paprika. Which is why large parts of Eastern Europe are still very into paprika.

hazel

Yeah, I one -one thing I kind of miss is paprika crisps.

Liz

Pringles do paprika crisps

hazel

They do?

Liz

mhm, they're gorgeous

hazel

Oh, yes, sometimes I see the paprika crisps in like the Eastern European section of the supermarket, but they're always expensive.

Liz

I hope you enjoy the Pringles ones.

hazel

gonna seek those out.

Liz

Yeah, so this paprika was mostly the spicy kind at this point. So Jonathan Harker can surely be forgiven for saying that it was spicy.

hazel

It's not just his English palate.

Liz

I mean, it's partly that I feel he can be forgiven. Interesting there's also a form of jam made from from peppers from sweet peppers.

hazel

Really? I've heard of chili jam, but like not sweet pepper jam. Is it like a kind of chutney or like a actual jam sugar jam thing?

Liz

I believe it's more of a chutney. But I'm sure you can make a sugar jam from it as well. I'm going to double check my source on that

hazel

sounds like it would be nice with cheeses

Liz

Yeah, it is it is more of a more of a chutney. That would be very nice I want to try that. Yeah, so the word chili itself is from the Nahuatl word for the plant. Because I forgot to say that when I was etymologying. there's a lot of different words for the peppers, apparently. Bell peppers, sweet pepper, capsicum, as I said, apparently in parts of the US. They're sometimes referred to as mangoes. If anyone is listening from the Midlands region of the US because apparently they also have a Midland let us know if you have heard of bell peppers referred to as mangoes

hazel

What? What do they call mango mangoes also mangoes?

Liz

. I mean, we call multiple things pepper, you can have more than one.

hazel

That's true. That's true

Liz

stuff could mean two things. There's also some varieties of peppers that are grown for a more ornamental purpose.

hazel

I've seen the in flower shops, like the little bouquets of tiny chilies,

Liz

or there's things like the Black Pearl cultivar which is one that it produces black leaves and fruit, I've come across it on Twitter.

hazel

Oh, wow, that is that is just a black plant. Oh, it's round as well. Wow.

Liz

You can eat the fruit. It's apparently four to 12 times hotter than a jalapeno. (Oh my gosh) But it's mostly grown for aesthetic value.

hazel

That is very much in the Morticia Addams style of gardening.

Liz

It's it's goth and it's spicy and I love it.

hazel

I wonder what the other most Gothic plants are

Liz

not all chilies are capsis- capsicum annum. Habanero, Scotch bonnets. The you know the really spicy challenge. Chilies.

hazel

Yeah.

Liz

Are Capsicum chinense (okay) which I find interesting that we have jalapeno and cayenne are like the the Normie chilis, I say very much as a Normie. (Oh, yeah) Nick is known to get like Trinidad Scorpion hot sauce and stuff.

hazel

Wow. Yeah, I know. There are some that were just bred to be the most ridiculously spicy peppers possible.

Liz

Oh, yeah. People take great pride in growing the spiciest ones.

hazel

My friend used to buy like packets that are sold as like world's spiciest chili of the internet and it always made me nervous.

Liz

Would like some examples of very, very spicy chili,

hazel

I would say give me the scovilles

Liz

So the Scoville scale is a rating of spiciness for peppers and chilies, a bell peppers zero. A jalapeno is about three to 8000 Carolina Reaper spiciest is 2.2 million.

hazel

That's that's a lot.

Liz

And the Trinidad Scorpion, which is the one I mentioned is 2 million. There's some of these I haven't actually heard of the seven pot doodler or possibly dougla I - sometimes known as the chocolate seven pod, which feels like a misleading name for something that's 1.8 million Scoville units. So again, jalapeno up to about 8000.

hazel

Okay, yeah, that's that's about as spicy as I will go, I think. Yeah.

Liz

It's just I don't, I'm glad everyone's having a good time. But I will not be eating for example, the ghost pepper 1 million Scoville units anytime soon.

hazel

Yeah, I think congratulations on the very, very spicy varieties, but like, also, that's a bit a bit too hardcore. I'm just gonna stick with my very basic chilies.

Liz

There were rumors of a spicier pepper. (Even spicier than the California Reaper) claimed to be twice as hot as a Carolina Reaper (twice?) known as pepper X but not yet been officially tested.

hazel

A challenger comes from the shadow

are there competitions of people breathing the air around this pepper and just like convulsing to the ground.

Liz

I read I wouldn't approach it. I'll be honest like that. Like there's already some of these like the ghost pepper. You're not supposed to put it in bare hands in case you have a cut and it becomes agony when it goes in.

hazel

I don't want to be assaulted by my food. Props to people who can eat that though.

Liz

But yeah, while peppers spicy chili is being spread by the Portuguese and then the Ottoman, Britain basically sat down and went I'll just have the Cayenne Thank you very much. Which is made in the same way as paprika just from a different cultivar dried and then ground actually pops up in 18th century recipe books as Chen chyan possibly still pronounced cayenne standardized spelling wasn't really a thing yet. Okay, and does show up in Culpeper action, which is very influential 1650s medical book cayennew apparently helps digestion provokes urine. Relieves toothache preserves the teeth and helps with kidney stones and vision loss.

hazel

Okay, that's like a whole collection of things.

Liz

It's, it's sure a series of symptoms.

hazel

I mean, I My eyesight is not great. maybe i should eat some chilies.

Liz

I mean, I am an absolute spice wimp and have worn glasses since I was six. So you know, just presenting some facts

hazel

theory confirmed

Liz

obviously Chile is also very popular in Asia now, especially India, but also show up in especially Korean and Japanese curries. And very big in the US, especially the southern US. There's actually a wild variety called chiltepin that grows in Arizona and southern Texas (wild chilis). Yeah,

hazel

that's nice you could go chili foraging.

Liz

Probably grown by the Pueblo people in New Mexico as well. So I guess, I guess this is another one of those situations where we can call a plant feral, which is fun

hazel

Yeah. Feral chilies does sound terrifying.

Liz

It really does. But paprika itself, just get getting back to it has a lot of varieties actually, it's very popular in Hungary still shows up in eight different varieties, or grades which go from noble sweet to strong Obviously, it's very big in Spain as well as, as you would expect. It's what used to season slash color chorizo

hazel

Oh, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

Liz

And I've I've come across a lot of situations of people using it as an using this sweet variety as saffron to colour dishes.

hazel

Yeah, that to be fair, it does turn everything everything it touches mildly red.

Liz

Yeah, like the more usual substitution is tomato, but I guess a small amount of paprika. Like just enough to color it would probably have less influence on the flavor than adding tomato. (yeah) If you just want that little pop of pop of color in it rather than trying to change it- and yeah, it is still very popular in Eastern Europe. It shows up in I mean, I think it's fair to say that Hungarian food is kind of known for paprika.

hazel

Yeah. Although I'm still unclear on what isn't isn't considered goulash because there's a lot of paprika dishes like stews that are not goulash. To an outsider it is confusing, but please let us know if you know the stews.

Liz

I Think Yeah, let let me know. But I'm pretty sure that the main difference is just cultural. It's like we have a lot of different stews, and some of them we might call a hot pot or an Irish Stew and some we wouldn't, but you'd be hard pressed to explain the difference.

hazel

Okay, I guess Yeah. And they can be really subtle differences, like a hot pot is just just a stew with potatoes on the top right? Or is that like not even?

Liz

I mean, I would, I would say so. But I mean, I don't consider it a Lancashire hotpot unless it's made with lamb and black pudding.

hazel

Okay. Okay. All right. Yeah. But yeah, I understand. Why all the differences.

Liz

Yeah. So don't get me started on Lancashire hotpot, there's a whole controversy about whether you're allowed to put carrots in

hazel

Have we done a local ladder on that I-

Liz

We haven't I thought about it for a while, but it's at the end of the day. It's just a very specific stew.

hazel

There's so many like, minutely different kinds of stew it is it is a problem.

Liz

But yeah, in Hungarian cuisine, we get goulash we get Gulyásleves, which is kind of a thick beef and paprika soup (sounds good) Porkholt, paprikash, which is another name for the stew mentioned in Dracula and is delicious and is also a patreon recipe. (Excellent) And excuse my pronunciation I've tried Bogracs gulyas which is another paprikay stew

hazel

It just goes well.

Liz

Yeah, there's there is a book I kind of want to get it because I love paprika so much. Which is Gundel's Hungarian cookbook by Karoly Gundel, which does say that if- it's not a goulash, if there's any grains or potatoes and (Oh, interesting) but there are also many goulash recipes which contain potato. Because who can agree on anything when it comes to food classification?

hazel

Exactly. And I think generally, everything that's a national dish has like a million different versions of how people make it in this family or whatever.

Liz

Yeah, and then you've got Austrian goulash. I'm not gonna get into Goulash. Maybe Maybe we should do a local larder on goulash

hazel

yeah, I think goulash deserves its own spot.

Liz

I will say there's a wild boar goulash in Germany, which I'm very interested in and I love wild boar so yeah, before we get too off track that is that is my brief history of paprika and the capsicum annum.

hazel

That was wonderful. And I'm so hungry now.

Liz

Yeah, like I ate right before we started, but now I kind of want just anything with paprika. I might have some wotsits They've got paprika (have they?) how do you think they make them orange? (what?) Hazel is learning so much today

hazel

That has just absolutely blown my mind. been eating wotsits all these years. Well, to be fair, I haven't even been for years, but it's paprika that makes them orange. Okay, I've learned a fact, I've learned one fact, from this whole explanation.

Liz

There's also paprika Pringles. (yes). Actually, I think NIck's working- bring me back pringles from work. Well, not from work. You know what I mean? Anyway, local larder.

hazel

So I've actually staying relatively on topic forthis local larder, although I don't think there's any paprika in it. (but can there be?) There certainly could be. Absolutely. So this is a Transylvanian specialty from the Transylvanian region, or the historical province of Transylvania, which kind of spans the area between like Romania and Hungary. And this dish is associated with the city of Cluj Napoca, which is kind of the capital of the Transylvanian region, and in fact, it was the official capital of the grand Principality of Transylvania a couple of times, and it's the fourth most populous city in Romania. So it's, it's the sort of most prominent city in the Transylvanian region. And this dish is called Vasa Allah Cluj. Which means Cluj style cabbage, which is a bit of an unprepossessing name, but this does honestly-

Liz

it is but I do like cabbage a lot.

hazel

Cabbage is good. I guess It has a bad rep. But there's a lot of ways to make it taste delicious. And this is one of them. And also it's very good for you. So there you go. It's apparently is similar in its ingredients to Sarmale which are like a cabbage roll which is like a Romanian national dish that this one is quite specific to Transylvania. And it's like a kind of like a layered cas- casserole involving cabbage and rice, and like tomato sauce, and you put beef in it as well like put mince in it, or whatever you're using. So you kind of layer the those up. So one of the recipes, for example that I have found, involves sort of frying chopped onions and carrot and the mince sort of like making a bolognese base, I guess, with some tomato sauce. And like some passata.

Liz

I'm very interested in this.

hazel

And then cabbage. Oh, yeah. And then having sliced cabbage, and thyme, which sounds like a lovely combination. And like infusing them, frying the cabbage, cooking the rice, and then layering them up with sour cream on top and baking it for an hour. So like, all of the flavors,

Liz

an hour of baking the cabbage in the liquid.

hazel

Yeah. And like the rice absorbing the cabbagey Tomatoy goodness. Yeah, it sounds like a very, very good sort of filling like autumn winter dish. (And something you could definitely paprika) yes, absolutely. I feel like you could enhance that with paprika. If you wanted to. I'm sure there's a lot of different recipes for this.

Liz

I'm sure there's a whole debate about whether to put paprika in

hazel

Yes. Well, apparently, they it can have a variety of meats. So this dish first shows up in print in a cookbook from 1695 of recipes from the region. And apparently in this book, it has kind of a combination of meats, so you can use like, it could also include a chicken or goose or ham and can be seasoned with ginger.

Liz

Goose and ham are very different meats

hazel

Yeah. But I think the the kind of the thing that continues is it's always like cabbage and rice in layers. Yeah, so so it's a local specialty. And apparently it's usually served hot and can can be accompanied by hot peppers. And a dish which I'm like,

Liz

just on the side of the plate?

hazel

Yeah, just like on the side. And apparently, something that I'm not entirely sure how to pronounce. But it looks like Mămăligă which is similar to polenta. It's like a cornmeal porridge. Which sounds pretty good. Honestly. I kind of want to try this now, because it seems like an easy thing to make at home as well. So like, give it a go. So there you go. That is a local Transylvanian specialty to go with our paprika history, and potentially something that Jonathan Harker might have eaten as well

Liz

So thank you for listening. As I said, we do have a patreon Bread and thread where you get access to monthly patron exclusive recipes. I don't know why I said it so dramatic. I mean, I like them all. I'm the person that wrote them, as well as access to a patron exclusive discord server where we chat about food about crafts. We're talking about farm animals a lot lately because I went to an agricultural show. There were there were many different types of sheep

hazel

Ah were they all different kinds of sheep.

Liz

They were You're clearly not been in the discord for a while there were a lot of pictures.

hazel

I'm gonna do that right now.

Liz

Well, I saw this looking at sheep pictures we're still on Twitter and Tumblr at Breadandthread. If you want teasers for upcoming episodes, various things that we reblog the pictures that we say that we will post, that's where we post them. If you want to request an episode, just say hi, tell us the spiciest thing you've ever eaten. (If you've ever eaten) have you heard about pepper x?

hazel

if you've tried pepper X and lived to tell the sale, please email us from wherever you're recovering.

Liz

Email us from the other side at breadandpodcast@gmail.com. Thank you for listening, read gothic fiction and we'll be back in a couple of weeks.