Episode 13: "Live in the Discomfort" (w/ Jen Moorman!)

*This week, the queers are joined by horror academic Jen Moorman (When Animals Attack Podcast, Eli Roth’s History of Horror) to talk the much disaparaged David Fincher debut ALIEN 3. Jen really opens up with the group, sharing her deep personal connection with the material and potentially changing everyone’s perspectives forever. We talk fragility, strength, our relationship to being an ally, and also Mark has a third act meltdown. Plus, in Tea Time we sip on TEEN WITCH, THE CHILLING ADVENTURES OF SABRINA, and a whole lot of stuff that brings the mood down but in, like, a constructive way.*[1]

## Trivia

Notes: Everyone is silly and punchy this episode. Brennan is so scared of alligators

**Nay:** By now you know who we are, you know that Michael wants to be me and it all makes sense

**Michael:** And she wants to be Jennifer Tilly

**Nay:** I want to be *with* Jennifer Tilly

**Michael:** Different

**Nay:** Yeah, different

Topics brought up during the episode: Kill by Kill podcast, *Bound* Blu-ray, Jen appearing on *Eli Roth's History of Horror* , alligator episode of When Animals Attack podcast, *Heathers* (the TV series) being postponed because of school shootings, Brendan Scannell, Melanie Field, kid shot at school but school kept open, school shooting episode of *Glee*, *Shoah* (1985), Miranda Otto, (Sabrina's cousin from *Chilling Adventures of Sabrina)* Chance Perdomo, Kiernan Shipka, *The Blackcoat's Daughter*, multiple cuts of *Alien 3*, Sigourney Weaver's anti-gun position

## **Tea Time**

**Mark:** (aside from *Suspiria*, the greatest movie of the year) *Heathers* the TV show (the uncut version, not the aired version)

**Michael:** *South Park* season premiere "Dead Kids" (students learning through a school shooting)

**Nay:** Deep dive into the diversity of Jewish folks and how white supremacy has erased from a lot of people's narratives how diverse the community of Jewish people are

**Jen:** just read "Understanding Antisemitism" as well, *Castle Rock* season one, *Chilling Adventures of Sabrina* season one, Netflix's *The Haunting of Hill House*

**Brennan:** *The Curse of the Fly*, *Teen Witch*

## **Shady Summaries**

**Jen:** Ripley goes butch and never looks back

**Nay:** My worst nightmare. Which is a planet of just men

**Mark:** Pollution. Rape. And corporations that want to kill you. It's not 2018, it's *Alien 3*!

**Michael:** I don't really have one. It's just Ripley cubed. Thank you. Actually, thinking about what you said, Nay, it's like, ugh, being trapped on a ship with all your bullies. Like the people that treated me the worst in life, so. Ripley kicks ass, she's me

**Jen:** She's all of us

**Michael:** She *is* all of us

## **Pride Float**

**Mark:** Does *Alien 3* get a Pride Float?

**Michael:** Hell yeah. That shade gets it one

**Mark:** You know what, I want to say I think it gets a Pride Float. I want it to be because, and you can see the David Fincher and the way he shoots some of the super industrial sets, I think that the music would be "Express Yourself" because he did the video for "Express Yourself" and some of the cinematography, that sort of maximalist kind of like, Fritz Lang *Metropolis*, you know, both terrifying and industrial stuff...

**Nay:** Absolutely

**Mark:** Is present, alive and well in *Alien 3* and I think that that's...

**Michael:** *Alien 3* kind of has um, it's like an early peek into his look for *Seven* and *Fight Club*, and stuff, so that's pretty cool.

**Nay:** That's true

**Michael:** The float is just Sigourney's shaved head, right? We're all just sitting on it?

**Jen:** What about like, I bet that there are chestburster dildos out there though

**Mark and Michael:** *Ohhhhhhh*

**Michael:** Girl

**Jen:** What if there are people wearing strap-ons, people, androgynous people, people of all genders

**Nay:** That's so bomb

**Michael:** Pegging with Xenomorphs

**Nay:** The chest strap that looks like the burster

**Jen:** Oh, I wasn't even thinking *on* the chest

**Nay:** Yeah, you have a harness on and bomb

**Jen:** *Yes!*

**Michael:** On top of Sigourney's shaved head

**Nay:** That too. Head straps? Yeah

**Mark:** But also Sigourney just yells at people watching the parade, going, "Oh, you're Mister Ridiculous! Oh look, it's Mister Sublime!"

**Nay:** Yes! 'Coz when you were talking about how terrifying it would be for her to be mad at you...

**Mark:** Terrifying

**Nay:** I'm like, "That sounds hot."

**Jen:** Her being mad?

**Nay:** Yeah, be mad at me

**Michael:** I'm like, "Wave your finger in my face."

**Jen:** I hear that

**Mark:** "Slap me."

**Nay:** My float would be...

**Michael:** "Throw your shaved pieces at me."

**Nay:** You're a slut. My float for this movie would definitely, it would have to be Sigourney of course. I would just like to bring some, you know when you wanna bring some attention to an issue, some, uh...

**Brennan:** Like spotlight it?

**Nay:** Yeah, I would just like to spotlight pregnant butches

**Michael and Jen:** *Ohhhhhhh*

**Nay:** Who don't get the representation that they...

**Michael:** Really ever

**Nay:** Especially because it's beautiful of course, and yeah, something to just…

**Michael:** I love that

**Nay:** Why don't I have that word?

**Michael:** Attention?

**Nay:** Let's go with attention

**Jen:** Awareness?

**Nay:** Awareness! Oh my God. My lack of awareness right now is stunning. But yeah, some awareness to butch pregnancies

**Jen:** I love it. Actually, you know what that makes me think of? One of you mentioned it, I can't remember who, mentioned a film, *My Ass is Haunted*?

**Michael:** Mark

**Brennan:** It was Mark

**Mark:** It was me

**Michael:** It was Ernie (the sound guy)

**Jen:** Okay, I have been *flipped* out because, okay, my dissertation and like, current book project...

**Michael:** Was on *The Exorcist*

**Jen:** Well, sort of. It was actually about women who direct porn. And so, I did a lot of interviews with people in the industry and Belladonna, who directed *My Ass is Haunted*, um, is one of the people I got to interview and she was the only one where I was like almost unable to ask questions because I think she's *so* hot

**Nay:** Oh my God, she's *amazing*

**Jen:** She's like amazing. And speaking of that, she was, I wouldn't normally describe her as butch, but she was pregnant with a shaved head in one of her films, so it actually is kind of like Ripley's pregnant

**Nay:** That's bomb

**Jen:** *Yeah*

**Nay:** You just brought it full circle

**Brennan:** Yeah, this is the last episode of *Queerwolf*. We've come full circle, we did it

**Mark:** We did it, we covered everything

**Michael:** *My Ass is Haunted*

## **Quotes**

**Michael:** The twirling? The *Suspiria* dance that an alligator does, does that get you, Mark?

**Mark:** Listen. If you bring up *Suspiria...*

**Michael:** That's why I brought it up

**Mark:** I won't stop talking about it. You have to know that.

**Nay:** Well that's fine

**Mark:** You have to not do that unless you're prepared for me to re-enact the entire film

**Michael:** I enjoy your talking *Suspiria*

**Nay:** Honestly, Mark, once I heard you talk about *Carrie* and it brought me to tears. I would literally listen to you talk about any movie you enjoy

**Mark:** (faux modesty) Stop

**Michael:** On playback of that episode of Mark talking about it...

**Nay:** Yeah, same

**Michael:** Yeah. I, I was *there* and I was listening to it in my car, like, mouth agape just like, what a deep motherfucker

**Nay:** Yeah. Do I know this person personally?

**Mark:** Like, so deep

**Michael:** How am I on a show with this person?

**Mark:** Too beautiful to live. Okay, what's everyone been watching?

**Michael:** Mark hates compliments

**Nay:** Mark hates compliments, I know. But that, thank you. Everyone's been doing things for me

**Nay:** It was a lot of stuff that I didn't know, so I felt like a big dumbass, which is what happens when you don't know and you are living in ignorance and you find out more

**Mark:** Did you have a specific site or book to point us to?

**Nay:** Yeah, someone sent me to… Jews for Racial and Economic Justice have a document called 'Understanding Antisemitism' and it's really, I really; that's the way white supremacy works. I didn't even know that that was contributing to this erasure. And I would, I mean, real talk: I would consider myself a very "woke" person; I'm like, "Who is least likely to offend or like take care of someone's emotional state, like not microagress them," I would be like, "It's me!" I have worked for years, like trying to be kind to people. It didn't matter. I didn't know, and it was super eye-opening and fascinating and also and in light of what's going on right now, there was a shooting at a synagogue and I think a lot of people are talking about it in terms of gun control; which of course we should talk about gun control, but also, like, these people were shot because they were Jewish. And so, to read that right now, I just felt very moved to read all kinds of things. Because I was like, "What else do I not know? What else is white supremacy contributing to right now and has me thinking or *not* thinking about it," so yeah, it was really good documents I read that was given to me by a Jewish person who was like, "You should read this, because you need to know this information."

**Michael:** It's a sobering reminder that we all have work we have to do, regardless of how much we think we do or don't

**Nay:** I do microaggression trainings and I tell people, "If it makes you uncomfortable, that's fine. Sit in the discomfort." But *I* had to do it. I was like, "Yeah, *bitch.* Sit in the discomfort. Like, sit in the discomfort, then. Practice what you preach."

**Michael:** I think it's hard to publicly say, too, "I have shit to do."

**Nay:** It's mortifying

**Michael:** But we all do

**Nay:** But it's just *so* necessary, and I know when black folks are killed with no abandon and I just hear about gun control, I think about race obviously. And to hear Jewish folks saying, "No, these people were killed because they were Jewish. It's not just a gun control thing. This is a hate crime. There's stuff going on." I was just so moved by that, like it's really easy for me to be empathetic towards that line of sentiment, you know? And I was like, "Oh. Well then, let me do my work and like, what I can, which still isn't enough, by myself, of course." I was just very touched

**Mark:** But you're enough Nay, we love you

**Michael:** Very much

**Nay:** Thank you, love you, too

**Jen:** I think that (document) is a great reminder of the fact that alllyship is fluid and imperfect by design. Part of being a good ally is always recognizing that we all have different amounts of privilege and laugh, learn, love

**Mark:** You can't stop learning, right?

**Jen:** Yeah, you've gotta be willing to make mistakes, you know? And yeah...

**Michael:** You can't just *get* allyship, you need to give it, too

**Nay:** You need to be an accomplice. Like, it's more than being an ally

**Michael:** It's action over tweeting. It's action over… tweeting, it's action over tweeting. Yeah.

**Jen:** (Harvey from *Chilling Adventures of Sabrina*) is like the boyfriend from *Orange is the New Black*, where it's just like he's ugh

**Nay:** Oh my God. That is hilarious

**Jen:** It's just like a flaccid penis, you know? It's just...

**Mark:** "You guys, this is my boyfriend, Flaccid Penis."

**Michael:** Oh my God. I feel like that's an ultimate slam. To call someone a "flaccid penis"? It's really great

**Mark:** It really is. "Here's this tube of skin."

**Jen:** I feel like I'm body-shaming weirdly, but I dunno, you know what I mean?

**Nay:** It is a little body-shamey

**Jen:** Which I don't wanna be, but...

**Michael:** I guess it is, yeah

**Brennan:** To be fair, I don't think you specifically said "penis". He's a flaccid character, he's not potent

**Nay:** Mark took it there. Mark said, "flaccid."

**Mark:** I took that...

**Michael:** "And I ran to the end zone"?

**Mark:** in my hand...

**Michael:** and ran with it?

**Mark:** Yeah, all the way to the end zone

**Brennan:** Yeah, you took that flaccid penis and you made a just sort of whole dick thing

**Mark:** I spiked it and did a little dance

**Michael:** (fey voice) "I hit a homerun with it and then I kicked it in the goal"

**Brennan:** But the weird thing is, was super weird, nobody turns into a fly in this one. Not a single human-fly creature in (*The Curse of the Fly*). It's kind of...

**Mark:** Bold

**Michael:** That's a brave choice

**Mark:** Really brave of them

**Brennan:** I only noticed this because of our recent episode, but it's kind of a twisted remake of *Rebecca*.

**Everyone else:** Oh!

**Michael:** Do say!

**Mark:** You mean the episode that's gonna get us all fired

**Nay:** Yes! That's for real

**Mark:** We basically covered *Rebecca* a couple of weeks ago...

**Michael:** It'll come out before this

**Mark:** It turned into phone sex. Like it literally turned into the filthiest pod we've ever done

**Michael:** Like the phone sex line you see advertised on *USA Up All Night*

**Mark:** Yeah. Like 976-GO-TO-BED

**Nay:** All night

**Brennan:** (Friend of the pod Josh Miller as the little brother in *Teen Witch*) is the nuttiest character I've ever seen

**Mark:** It is an insane movie. It truly is.

**Brennan:** Yes

**Michael:** So great

**Mark:** The entire movie feels like an accident. Like, it's just this insane collection of things that add up to a movie, and yet you're like, "movie?"

**Jen:** I kind of love it

**Mark:** Oh, it's fabulous!

**Michael:** And that was the final cut

**Brennan:** Any time it's a half-assed musical, it is gold. Like, seriously, the weird, the "I Like Boys" sequence in the locker room?

**Mark:** It's the horniest teen movie ever. ***Ever.***

**Brennan:** They do this crazy choreography with towels that's like Three Stooges-esque, like, "Oh, we're pulling her arms apart!"

**Nay:** Okay, I can't

**Mark:** No, I remember that. My favorite bit is when they take Robyn Lively to an abandoned...

**Michael:** The horniest

**Mark:** An abandoned shack in the woods to like, go to third base. It's filthy. Like, it's totally filthy.

**Brennan:** It definitely was probably responsible for a lot of sexual awakenings

**Mark:** I just know a lot of young women who had some serious Disney Channel sexual awakenings some Saturday mornings in the '90s. It was seminal for a lot of young women apparently

**Brennan:** But I will say, does (Mark's partner) Josh listen to the show? He doesn't have to

**Mark:** He listens to, I think certain ones. I think he doesn't check in on *every* single one.

**Michael:** He's listened to it, he's told me

**Brennan:** No, that's totally fine

**Nay:** Does Brian listen to every single one? Does your mom listen to every one, Mark?

**Mark:** I don't know

**Brennan:** I think she fell off

**Nay:** Oh my God

**Mark:** I'm not sure. I feel like maybe, Mom, if you're hearing this… but I feel like maybe she listened to the first couple and she just like moved here...

**Michael:** Brian is welcome to come(?)

**Mark:** And she moved to this community where she's getting invited to dances a lot...

**Michael:** Oh my God, really?

**Nay:** Oh, she busy

**Mark:** She's got a lesbian cabal.

**Michael:** She's got a bigger social calendar than me

**Mark:** And these friends and these like, men of a certain age are like, (as an older man) ''Oh, Mary Ann, hello." (normal voice) And they ask her to dance. And the last time I visited her, she was, I was like, "Oh, hi Mom, what are we gonna do?" And she was like, (as his mom) "Hey, so, don't be mad, but…"

**Michael:** Oh my God, she totally blew you off

**Mark:** (normal voice) She teen girled me. She blew me off and she was like, (as his mom) "Are you mad?" (normal voice) I was like, "No." And she was like, (as his mom) "Okay! I won't be that late. Okay, bye!"

**Michael:** (as Mark's mom) ";Cause I was gonna go anyway!"

**Mark:** She totally ditched me

**Michael:** I wanna meet your mom

**Nay:** I live for this

**Michael:** I have a question for (Mark): Is your sister still listening or is she too amped up on mister logo-man over there?

**Mark:** Oh shit, that's right. My sister confessed that she was, um, like physically drawn to the queerwolf

**Michael:** In your sister's defense, I got like four or five text messages that day from people being like, "Mark's sister is not wrong."

**Jen:** I commented on your Instagram about that. Because I agree. You need to make an enamel pin

**Nay:** I got a text about the jawline

**Michael:** He's a babe

**Brennan:** Wrapping up *Teen Witch*, I just wanna say, I'm pulling a quote from another podcast, called The Flop House, that covered it like eight years ago, but they did discover that Josh's character...

**Michael:** Is this one gonna land?

**Brennan:** What?

**Michael:** Nothing

**Brennan:** They did describe Josh's character as an "omnisexual glutton"...

**Nay:** Same

**Brennan:** I just really want him to hear that, so

**Mark:** I can deliver that message

**Mark:** He once described, because he loved classic movies as a kid, and he described his inspiration for his performance as Bette Davis

**Brennan:** That's the coolest guy

**Michael:** (whispers) Josh I love you

**Mark:** Well, that is the delivery, is like (As Josh's Teen Witch character) "No one's coming to your sweet sixteen, Louise." It's so insane. That movie is so insane.

**Michael:** He's brilliant

**Ripley in the trailer:** Was there an alien on board?

**Mark:** Yes

**Michael:** The end

**Mark:** It really is a movie for our time.

**Jen:** It really is

**Mark:** I say that really depressed about that, but I was watching it and I was like, wow it really feels...

**Michael:** That's beginning to become a common theme here, is realizing when we rewatch some of these old faves is like, ugh, "God, why do they hold up more now than they did then?"

**Jen:** I listened to your episode where you all were sharing your three gay films

**Michael:** You did?

**Nay:** Oh God

**Jen:** No, I was just listening to it the other day and I loved it...

**Mark:** (quietly) Oh God

**Jen:** And I was actually inspired to open up a little bit and share as a result

**Michael:** Yay

**Jen:** So, I have a personal connection

**Michael:** Take as long as you want

**Jen:** When (*Alien 3*) first came out, I was in middle school or something, so I didn't have that relationship to it. I honestly just remember thinking it was so funny how often they say the word "fuck". Do you notice that? I actually did a drinking game. I used to host these *Alien* quadrilogy parties with grad school friends. Everyone would come over and we would have like, drinking games for each of the movies and it would vary according to the film. And the third one, it was "Every time they say the word 'fuck'," you start to notice. It's like oh my God, so egregious

**Mark:** You're hammered by the minute forty

**Michael:** You get drunk by the 25-minute mark. I did that once with *Shaun of the Dead*, but it was the word "Shaun".

**Mark:** Oh God

**Michael:** I was fucked up by act two

**Nay:** We should do that with me with the word "fuck"

**Jen:** At the time I don't know why I really connected with it, but as an adult, I kind of reconnected with it a decade ago. So, I am a cancer survivor. And I was diagnosed with cancer twice while I was working towards my PhD and the first time, I, yeah. Crazy side story: It was actually like the diagnosis was delivered over the phone by the RN, who worked at the student health center at UCLA, and she literally said, "So you have cancer. Um, I was looking at the pathology report and I don't really understand what it means, but I Googled some of the terms and I'm pretty sure it's aggressive." That's literally how I was diagnosed.

**Mark:** Jesus fucking Christ

**Michael:** What did you do?

**Jen:** Well, an hour later I went and taught the first class of the semester, because I had to. And so I feel like I relate to Ripley because I've been through hell, and I am, like, as over it as she is in this particular installment

**Michael:** And you've been through hell twice, right? And she's been through hell twice at this point

**Jen:** Exactly, so it's kind of like, you know, the first time I did chemo, I lost my hair and it was right before Halloween, so I actually… I decided to take advantage and I dressed as Ripley in *Alien 3* with my bald head

**Michael:** Oh my God, that's awesome

**Jen:** And so there's something about it. (*Alien 3*) has been read as an AIDS metaphor, which I think is one of the reasons why I would describe it as queer. But for me, it's been a cancer metaphor ever since that experience

**Michael:** I read two articles today where one person discussed the AIDS metaphor and another person did actually discuss that it was a metaphor for cancer

**Jen:** Yeah, I think it makes sense both ways because they're both diseases that...

**Michael:** The disease in general, yeah

**Jen:** Where it's like the body attacks itself, almost, and like the treatment for cancer is worse than the disease

**Michael:** Poison, essentially

**Jen:** So there's a lot about that. So *any* of the movies with Ripley could have worked, but I actually love how depressing this one is. How dark and elegiac it is. I love a survivor. I *am* one, but survival's not a virtue. And I've watched friends die of the disease I've survived and I'm not better than them, I didn't deserve to live any more than they did. And so there's something about having the person you're rooting for always survive, that can *maybe* help to reinforce some toxic ideas about the world being fair in a way that it's not, which can lead to a lot of bootstrap mentality, where the people with wealth and power have it because they deserve it and the people who survive deserve it. And it's like, no. Great people die all the time, shitty people can get to be President

**Mark:** (feigning innocence) What do you mean, Jennifer?

**Michael:** There's that speech by Charles S. Dutton that kind of--

**Jen:** Yes!

**Michael:** That goes along those lines; because I have to be honest with you, the first time I saw this movie, I was like, "I can't believe they fucking killed Newt off-screen." You know what I mean? And when you realize it; I was actually reading about that motivation. Someone wrote an article about why it needed to happen off-screen [Editor's Note: This essay was written by Devin Faraci, who has been accused of sexual assault.]

**Jen:** Oh, I haven't seen this

**Michael:** And it went into that, what you were just saying, sometimes shit just happens to good people and there's really no reason for it, and you wake up one day and you're healthy and the next day you're sick. So, it was kind of like the movie, in a way they felt the movie was course correcting the franchise, too, to get back to the horror roots of it, even though Cameron's movie, *Aliens* is awesome, it wanted to get back to the darker horror side that the first movie represented. So I'm glad you brought that up, I thought it was super interesting

**Mark:** I agree, I think that killing off Newt and Hicks is one of the more admirable things about *Alien 3.* I fucking hate fan service so fucking much

**Michael:** Same

**Mark:** I think fan service is a fucking pox on...

**Michael:** The thing in the long run is that it ends up hurting the franchise

**Mark:** I mean, I dunno. The fact that people turned on this movie solely for that, like right off the bat, I think was really craven and embarrassing. And one of the things that I loved about *Alien* that, one of the reasons why I never responded that much to *Star Wars* movies was because the *Alien* franchise was *so* unsentimental. And especially in light of this. I had the poster for this movie over my bed

**Jen:** Really?

**Mark:** Yes I did. It was like a puffy poster from a Blockbuster that I stole.

**Nay:** 'cause you worked at Blockbuster

**Mark:** I did. I did work at many Blockbusters.

**Michael:** We need to do a book on Mark

**Nay:** Yes

**Mark:** And over my bed, I just loved Sigourney *so* much. And I loved this movie, too. And I loved, I loved the dark pitch to this movie. I loved, I love that it's so jagged and messy and really...

**Jen:** Me too

**Mark:** And it's not lovable. It *is* like the creature itself, kind of in its own way

**Jen:** Grimy and relentless

**Mark:** (It) is beautiful and difficult and like, I admire it, but I'm like, bleuch, I don't wanna be in it, like that's, it's, I dunno, it's fascinating for a lot of reasons and God knows; where do we begin?

**Jen:** Rewatching it again, I watched it today and I, this time I was particularly struck, I think I had forgotten how sick (Ripley) is in this one. So it's not, you know, in the first *Alien*, she's almost an incidental survivor, and I like that. She's also very gender neutral. But in the second one, it's like, again, it's super fun, I love it. But, yeah, it's like an action, she's an action hero you know? She's larger than life and...

**Michael:** She's essentially Sarah Connor before Sarah Connor

**Jen:** Exactly, exactly. And I love that in this one, she's sick and she's frail and it's so beautiful. How often do you get to see that? People with chronic illness and disability never get to see images of strength that are also frail and vulnerable. You know, the fact that she *is* sick and she is still strong as hell. Like she is dying and is still strong as hell. Like, you don't have to be an action hero to be strong

**Mark:** The cancer metaphor is at its strongest in a way for me, when I think of it through the lens that you're talking about that, you know, by the end of *Aliens*, that Ripley *has* her surrogate family and she's found Newt, as a result of, if you watch the sort of, the original Cameron cut, that Ripley had a daughter, Amanda, who died while she was in cryosleep and in Newt she finds a second chance at motherhood. And then those hopes are completely dashed, of course, in the opening credits of *Alien 3*

**Jen:** It's so perverse, I love it

**Mark:** And what's so perverse is the bitterness of *Alien 3* is that she is a mother, she is going to get a chance to be a mother, it's just to the...

**Jen:** It's the Alien

**Mark:** Yeah, to a, I mean, it's such a nasty, nasty trick that this movie is playing on its lead character, and it's fucking brave

**Michael:** To me in a sense, too, that like it's a studio film

**Jen:** *I know*!

**Michael:** That would never fucking happen now

**Jen:** It would never happen again

**Michael:** Ever. And it's super-bold and I love this description here that I'm reading that it's a "dark, nihilistic arthouse SF film with a complex, challenging female lead".

**Jen:** Yeah

**Michael:** And she is challenging, because you're right. In (*Alien*) Two, she's kind of just, Miss Badass. There's really nothing else going on there

**Mark:** Well, she's a trauma; I mean, I think one of my favorite things about *Aliens* is the, I mean, there's a lot of talk...

**Michael:** True, that's a good point

**Mark:** There's a lot of talk about representations of trauma and survivors and revisiting trauma in particular around certain movies today and I'm not really impressed by certain portrayals and certainly when you compare them to Sigourney in *Aliens*, now that is a *great* pop representation of a survivor facing down trauma and like, and talk about the ultimate fantasy of laying waste to whatever traumatized you. That is, I dunno

**Michael:** Yeah, no, yeah. I getcha. It's just, looking at *Alien 3* and the aspect of kind of what we were discussing before, just like the ebbs and flows of the franchise, just on style and just genre. The cool thing about this franchise is, it's clearly each film is clearly represented via the director. It's very Ridley Scott movie. It's very much a James Cameron film. Even like the theatrical cut which I watched in preparation for this, you can still see David Fincher

**Mark:** Oh, very much so

**Jen:** Yeah

**Michael:** You can *see* the auteurs behind the film and like, I can't think of another franchise that has that. Where like each film is very much represented by their director

**Mark:** So, would you say that; was this movie for you, as a survivor, as someone who battled cancer and thank God that you're here, was this movie a solace, was it a warning, was it a kind of, or was it a little of everything? I'm just stabbing in the dark here, but I'm really fascinated to hear how you came to have this relationship to this movie specifically, as a result of that

**Jen:** Yeah, I found it a solace. I mean, that moment when (Ripley) says, "You've been in my life for so long I can't remember anything else," that is *exactly* how I felt when I got diagnosed for the second time, and it was a year after finishing treatment for the first one and all of my doctors said there's no way it's cancer, it's never gonna come back. And then it's like, you can't escape it. The thing about, you know, I had breast cancer, and once you have it, even if it's early stage and it's "cured", there's still a one-in-three chance that it'll come back and kill you. So, it's like that feeling of never getting away from it. I mean, obviously everyone who loves horror and has had experiences with trauma or with feeling marginalized or anything like that, I think we all probably find solace in seeing these things. And I always thought that it was more connected to the idea of survivorship. Like the idea of the final girl is something I obviously connect with. But this movie made me realize that it's not about surviving, it's about fighting and I love that it's kind of a coalition. I mean, a lot of these men are awful, obviously, but it ends up, I love her and Dillon, like it's this coalition, coalitional politics, where they're like, if you kind of want to take the idea of (*Alien 3*) being 2018 and kind of run with it, it's like, it feels hopeless if you're looking at the news, ever, these days. And sometimes a movie like this makes you realize sometimes even if it is, you still gotta fight. Like, what are you gonna do? Lie down and just let it happen? You know, even if, like, you die, fighting requires sacrifice. Fighting for social change, fighting for almost anything requires sacrifice, and this movie doesn't give you any easy anything, you know?

**Jen:** And I love that they kill; I hate Newt, I gotta be honest with you, I think that she's so irritating and I honestly think that's one of the queer elements of the film. 'Cause it's like James Cameron loves the nuclear family idea, you know, and *Aliens* ends with this little would-be nuclear family so it's like this just killed that off, off-screen. It's like an afterthought, it's so perverse, and then she's just in this like...

**Michael:** It's like a bug they flick away

**Jen:** Yeah! Like, "Well, that's over." And then it *is* moving, when he's, I don't know, there's so much to say about this movie. Like it's got these like, little camp elements, mostly involving Charles S. Dutton, I think, like, I love his speeches and stuff

**Michael:** I mean the minute he walks from behind like ten people to preach at the funeral, you're like, "Hey now."

**Mark:** (as Charles S. Dutton) "Why God?"

**Jen:** And his package, I noticed his package this time. It reminds me of like, David Bowie in *Labyrinth*, like it becomes its own character, you know? There's something about like, these belt things that make it really prominent

**Mark:** "Is that a chestburster or are you just happy to see me?" Hi, Roc

**Mark:** If the first one is a haunted house movie, and the second one is a Vietnam movie, what is the third one? I sort of was thinking about this and I was like, is it a Jacobean tragedy, just like, it's a tragedy, but what like, but is there like a more specific kind of; and part four I don't know what the fuck part four is. I could never

**Michael:** "Part four is a movie."

**Mark:** Part four is Winona's a robot and that's enough for me but I still don't like it.

**Michael:** Ah, Winona the robot and the Ripley clone

**Brennan:** And she's an *Amelie* robot

**Michael:** *Clone and Robot*: Now in theaters'

**Mark:** I dunno

**Michael:** Would it be-- I mean, in a lot of ways isn't it against corporate greed and disease a lot of ways?

**Mark:** The whole series really is a...

**Michael:** I think it's against in a lot of ways, maybe I'm really off here, but almost like a shit on big pharma stuff? I think it's again, what did you say? The first two, what did you say? It throws you because it's about war, right? Or haunted house and then a war movie. I really think it's like a "fuck you". To corporations

**Jen** It is that. I mean, I think it's also a melodrama and kind of a prison drama

**Michael:** It's a prison industrial complex thing

**Jen:** Yeah.

**Michael:** Nay, what do you think?

**Nay:** I was thinking about when (Ripley) kills herself and the Alien, all of the rhetoric around folks who are pregnant and need an abortion and due to like, the fetus, it's gonna harm the host, right? And I remember, I would have these conversations with my mom, like, "If for some stupid reason I am ever pregnant and you have to make a decision of like, is it my life or this fetus? You better fucking pick me." Like, you know, because my mom's super Christian and I know like of course you pick the baby. But I'm like, "You'd better pick me." And I was thinking about the end of that movie and I'm like, I dunno, there's something so rad about like, "I'm gonna kill myself *and* this baby."

**Jen:** Yes! I actually saw someone describe it, I wrote it down somewhere, it's so amazing. They said it was, "The most badass abortion someone has (inaudible)," something like that

**Nay:** Seriously. Honestly. Abortion via lava, *okay*?

**Michael:** It really is. She does it herself

**Jen:** Yeah. I love it

**Mark:** What are the big; I feel like, probably you consumed a lot of the conversations around *Alien 3*, whether it's the troubled production and inception of it. The fact that the movie had sets before they even had a finished shooting script

**Michael:** Or a hundred scripts before they...

**Mark:** I mean, God. Poor David Fincher inherited a bear. But I'd be really interested to hear some of your wilder theories or insights about the movie, that you know, maybe they're personal, maybe you can back them up, maybe… I dunno. I'm just curious to know

**Jen:** Okay, so. I don't actually have a lot of thoughts about the production part of it, because everyone's so cagey about it and yet they're really open about it being a disaster, but it's like...

**Michael:** You don't find new info in the process

**Jen:** Yeah, yeah. It's just kind of like...

**Michael:** "Yeah, it was bad." "What, can you tell us why?" "It was bad."

**Jen:** Yeah, people disagree about stuff, and money and time and you know, it was just conflicts. But the things that I found were cool; I was watching some of the special features and yeah, I saw that Ripley, not Ripley, Sigourney Weaver was saying like, "I will only do this movie if I die in it. And if there are no guns." And she said at an early meeting, once Fincher was signed on to it, she was like, "So what's your vision for Ripley?" And he said, "Uhhh, I don't know. Bald?" And she was like, "And that's when I knew I loved him." And I was like, that's *fascinating*. And you know, there's something about her taking on like a really dominant role in this production, where she in some ways, is responsible I think for the final product, at least for some of its darkness, because she insisted on dying and not making it through. And I think that helped Fincher, like they were kind of allied in that way.

**Michael:** Yeah, that's cool

**Jen:** Where the studio couldn't be like, "No, you have to find a way to make this work so we can do another movie." Obviously they found a really lame way to make it work and do another movie anyway. It makes me sad that Fincher disavows it, because, I understand it, I'm sure it was very stressful and he hated it, but I obviously love the movie and it's; I love *Zodiac,* that's like the only other movie he's made that I think I would say, I actually like *Alien 3* better than all of his other movies except *Zodiac*

**Michael:** *Zodiac*'s so great

**Jen:** So yeah, it just makes me sad, so I've mostly ignored a lot of the production drama to focus on the film, so

**Mark:** But as far as the film itself, I'm interested in some of your wilder theories

**Jen:** Sure. So, the reason (*Alien 3*) feels very queer to me is like I said, kill off the nuclear family at the beginning. Ripley immediately shaves her head and is *super* androgynous. Watching it this time, so there's the sex scene, like she gets to be sexual. And of course it's with a man, but I'm bi, so I don't think that it cancels out, her having sex with a man does not mean it's not queer or that she's not queer, the character. But what I was noticing; this is gonna be really out there, but...

**Michael:** Please!

**Nay:** Do it! Yup!

**Jen:** It's post-coital, we don't actually see them having sex, but I noticed how they're dressed exactly the same way

**Michael:** God, I love it

**Jen:** The same hair

**Nay:** The gayest

**Jen:** She's like super flat-chested and it reminded me of the Marbles in *Pink Flamingos*

**Michael:** Oh my God!

**Mark:** With the shrimping scene, yeah

**Jen:** Yeah, where they're like, they look exactly the same except one's got red hair and pubes and one's got blue hair and pubes but they're both really androgynous, same body type. You know, there's something about it. This is obviously far less camp and over the top, but it's such an interesting choice

**Michael:** Well, and it's such a cool, it's,I love that you put it that way, because like, queer sex, you know what I mean, just 'coz whatever someone's genitals are doesn't mean it's not queer

**Mark:** Mmm-hmm

**Jen:** Exactly. And then, so yeah, the AIDS metaphor would be uh, contagion and all-male environment, whatever, people dying off. But the only thing that really doesn't work in this movie, I think, is the CGI Alien. I think there are a few scenes where it looks terrible and I wish they would re-do that

**Michael:** When I was watching it this time, the first time you see the full Alien I was like, "Aww, it's so cute in '92 they thought they had the effects right."

**Mark:** One of my favorite things that I read in production notes is in early tests they were going to just put a dog in an Alien suit and have it run around

**Jen:** They showed a picture of it. They actually did it.

**Mark:** I wanna see it

**Jen:** It's in the special features

**Mark:** I need to see it

**Michael:** That's queer, 'cause that's camp

**Jen:** It's hilarious

**Mark:** I was like, "Doggy Alien!"

**Michael:** Are you kidding?

**Mark:** No!

**Jen:** They thought it was too funny. They made the whole suit, they dressed it up, it was a whippet, you know those like skinny dogs?

**Nay:** Oh my God, that's so cute!

**Jen:** And they show it running, and it's *hilarious*

**Nay:** Okay, I have to see this

**Michael:** Would it have been fully suited down to footies?

**Mark:** Ugh, I wish

**Jen:** I didn't ask if there were footies, but it was otherwise fully covered

**Michael:** Would he have been encased?

**Jen:** He was totally encased otherwise

**Nay:** That's a lot of work for a little whippet

**Michael:** I was really upset that they...

**Nay:** That the rottweiler died?

**Michael:** Yeah, that it had to go through a doggie

**Jen:** That made me sad, too. That is a sad part, but I dunno, I feel like the whole movie is kind of wrenching. Like I was like tearing up repeatedly

**Michael:** Well I think at that moment you kind of go, "Oooh, this movie's kind of dark," and this is what you're getting

**Mark:** Well, in the first two movies (Ripley)'s fighting for survival and in the third one she runs around screaming like, "I wanna die!"

**Jen:** Yeah,  that's such a good point

**Mark:** The whole movie she's yelling, "Kill me! You said were gonna kill me!"

**Nay:** That's so real

**Michael:** It kind of does remind you of what people go through. I remember my dad the last year he was sick, at one point I remember having a conversation with him, he was like, "I'm just so fucking sick of this."

**Michael:** I love that you kind of said something earlier about like there's no, like survivorship is cool but it's not everything. And I think that there's dignity in going, "You know what? I've tried really really hard, I've gone through this shit," my dad was sick in various ways for twenty years and it never debilitated him, he plugged along every single day and I think to kind of go one day, "You know what? I've had a really good life and I think I'm ready for it to be over." There's like dignity and there's strength in that, you know?

**Jen:** Absolutely

**Nay:** You said several really poignant things

**Michael:** I know. I was like, "Wait, did I say that?"

**Nay:** I mean, brought a whole new level of analysis to this movie. Like I was not thinking about any of that. And there's just so much power in talking about fragility with strength, because in my experience, listening to a lot of people who want to die, um, as part of my career in the past, no one feels strong when they're at that point. No one, nothing in those conversations do I hear people being like, "You know what? I am *so* strong for still being alive." That's usually what you're trying to imply to someone and to see if they'll like, you know, grasp onto that. But there is honestly so much fucking strength in that even sickness and fragility can be totally separate from that and I think that that is like just a message I would want so many people to hear, you know?

**Jen:** I think what strength looks like, you know, it's not moving through life on skates, right? What strength looks like is surviving shit and you can survive a lot of shit with like, you know, with not being able-bodied, with being frail and you know, clawing your way through each day, you know, and like, I don't think we see enough of that

**Mark:** Even the business of survival at the end of the movie is a giant bundle of confusion

**Jen:** I know, it really is

**Mark:** The business of trying to fight the contagion

**Jen:** They're like, "Where is it?"

**Mark:** "Where are we? What tunnel? Who are you? Who's that guy? Oh shit, he's dead! Oh God, we're dead! Oh wait, are they getting him in the piston? Or no? Not in that pit? Is it supposed to go-- I don't understand!"

**Michael:** Survival's very confusing

**Jen:** It is

**Mark:** For me, this movie *is* 2018 and that is just like...

**Jen:** Oh God yeah

**Mark:** "What's happening? We're fighting this thing…" It's just about watching...

**Michael:** "Where am I supposed to be right now?"

**Jen:** "What should I focus on?"

**Mark:** You're bringing-- I'm so happy you're here to talk to us about this

**Nay:** Seriously

**Michael:** Thank you for sharing

**Mark:** For me, yesterday watching it, I was, after, you know, I've seen (*Alien 3*) a thousand times but I hadn't watched it in years, and watching it I was like, "I'm watching Democrats get organized. I'm watching Democrats try to pull together." And in the end they will, in the end they will. There'll be like three of them left, and they'll be messy as hell and there'll be blood everywhere, but, but it will be okay.

**Michael:** I hate to toot our own show's horn, but I think that...

**Brennan:** Oh, I love it

**Mark:** Toot-toot!

**Michael:** What you're bringing to the show, and what I've found with like, Michael Varrati when he was on, and Don Mancini when he was on and Chris Landon talking about *Carrie* and just some of the stuff we've talked about in here, is just how one person's perspective in one person's connection to a movie can really change the lens of a movie for somebody

**Nay:** Oh yeah

**Jen:** Yeah

**Michael:** 'Coz I have to be honest with you, the first time I saw (*Alien 3*) I fucking hated it. I actually dreaded watching this movie again...

**Jen:** Oh no!

**Michael:** Because it had been so long. And I watched it and kind of ho-hummed through it, but like, fuck, now I wanna watch it again

**Nay:** Yeah, same

**Mark:** Well, actually after this conversation, now I wanna watch the Assembly Cut

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** Yeah

**Mark:** Because the Assembly Cut...

**Michael:** Do you prefer that over?

**Jen:** I prefer the theatrical. Just because the Assembly Cut, I don't think it actually adds much

**Mark:** I like the Golic, I like the Golic

**Michael:** I was just gonna say, what were you gonna say, Mark?

**Mark:** I love Paul McGann as Golic

**Jen:** Oh yeah, I forgot, yeah. There's more of him in that one, it's true

**Mark:** He actually is like, he's like, "It's a dragon!" He's worshiping the creature

**Michael:** Oh no shit

**Jen:** I forgot about that

**Mark:** Yeah, it's ***nuts***. It's really nuts

**Michael:** That's queer

**Nay:** Yeah

**Mark:** It was also, the creature was born out of an ox

**Michael:** Like a bull, right?

**Mark:** It's *disgusting*. It's so gross

**Michael:** Why did; you just like wonder how they fought over what animal it was gonna be born out of

**Jen:** I know. I actually don't know why they did it both ways

**Michael:** Hollywood. The studio

**Mark:** No, apparently the ox, when it came time, because the the fake ox the chestburster came out of was fake. But when it came time to shoot a live ox with a...

**Michael:** The hugger?

**Mark:** The facehugger prosthetic, the ox wouldn't, was not having it

**Michael:** That's a good ox

**Mark:** To the point that they were like, "Fuck it. We're just gonna use a dog."

**Jen:** That is really funny

**Michael:** That's hilarious

**Jen:** But you don't see the facehugger on the dog either

**Michael:** That ox should...

**Nay:** Ugh, facehugger

**Mark:** Again, *Alien 3* is strange and mysterious and is not for us to understand completely

**Nay:** The facehugger is the gayest in the whole movie

**Jen:** Oh yeah. I mean, it's like a little vulva, like just like, but also a little penis that goes down your throat

**Nay:** Just attach to your face and, "Shwoop!"

**Michael:** Well then the protruding mouth is the vagina *and*...

**Jen:** All the imagery is so sexual. I actually noticed this time, I laughed out loud in the cremation scene, which is I mean, I started out feeling kind of moved when Charles S. Dutton's character starts giving a speech. But did you notice they're intercutting with the dog death? But like specifically, so...

**Mark:** A flower blooms and it's like, (regurgitation noise)

**Jen:** Yes. I wrote it down. It's like, "Within every seed there is a flower," and it's like, (squishy sound of the chestburster coming out of the dog's body)

**Michael:** Like on the nose

**Jen:** It's so perverse. I love it!

**Mark:** It's really perverse

**Jen:** "And a new beginning," and then it's like, cut to the little Alien chestburster, like, "Mrrrrr!"

**Michael:** I thought you were going to say that you; because I actually giggled when you hear their like body cinch?

**Nay:** Yes! Me too!

**Michael:** Like they really go there, like you hear, "sssssss."

**Jen:** I didn't notice!

**Nay:** Yeah, I did too

**Jen:** Wow

**Michael:** I watched it; Brian got me the wireless earbuds 'cause he likes to read at night and I intend not to be a reader. So i will sometimes put those in to watch something

**Jen:** Ah, so you really got it

**Michael:** And sound is really amplified in those fuckers and I just was like, "How? Wha?" Yeah, I was just like, "Did I just hear, 'Ssss,' twice?" And I kept rewinding and it was like, "Ssss."

**Nay:** That makes sense because I was listening with earbuds, and that's...

**Michael:** So fucking good, right? And I was like, I love this. Anyway

**Mark:** I have a little Easter egg if anyone's interested

**Michael:** [gasps] Give me the Easter egg

**Nay:** Yes!

**Mark:** So Sigourney, right, is...

**Michael:** Mother?

**Mark:** Mother. She's a queer icon, she's an icon period. And I, she's also someone who I go, "It must be terrifying to have her be angry at you."

**Nay:** Oh my God. Yeah! Or hot.

**Mark:** I was digging around on the web, so the actor who plays Aaron or also known as Eighty-five, he self-published his diaries on the web

**Michael:** Oh, no

**Nay:** *Yes!*

**Mark:** And from a few years ago he posted all his *Alien 3* diary entries during the making of

**Nay:** Wow

**Michael:** Does he regret it?

**Mark:** Well, what he describes is a fucking shit-storm of crazy, whether it's just daily rewrites, daily new scenes coming through

**Michael:** Oh, I thought you were going to say she reads him

**Mark:** Oh no, she does. Because the thing was, is that Sigourney, being Sigourney and amazing, she was always on Fincher's side and Fincher was constantly eating shit from the studio who were just constantly telling him what to do, telling him to cut things, telling him that he wasn't allowed to shoot things and Sigourney then sometimes would apparently just run off with him to shoot things that he was told he was not allowed to shoot. She was like, "Fuck it, let's go." And they would do...

**Nay:** *Wow*

**Michael:** I mean I love this stuff

**Mark:** That scene where she's stalking the beast by herself and says that line, "You've been with me for so long, I can't remember anything else," that was a scene the studio refused to let them shoot and they shot it anyway on their own and it ended up in the final cut

**Nay and Jen:** *Wow*

**Mark:** No one was in a good mood on the set of *Alien 3*. That includes Sigourney, and apparently she would just get really pissed off.

**Michael:** *Yes*

**Mark:** Apparently. There's some good gossip

**Michael:** Do we have time?

**Nay:** Yes

**Mark:** One, there is when this actor, Ralph Brown, who complained to Walter Hill, saying like, My character went from being like semi-heroic and being kind of great and like, fighting the Alien to being called Eighty-five and then like running away from the Alien and like eaten, getting shot in the back." Walter Hill said to him, Rafe Brown, and I quote, "After went to the pub for drinks and I started to unwind. I am now paranoid about being cut from the film like Veronica Cartwright was from *Alien* as Walter had gently reminded me earlier, 'I don't want to alarm you Rafe, but well, yes I actually *do* want to alarm you. Don't end up like Veronica.'"

**Michael:** *Girl*

**Mark:** So, I mean, the world of *Alien* movies is a cutthroat place, okay?

**Nay:** Oh my God. Alfred Hitchcock could never

**Mark:** I've met Veronica Cartwright and she's a fucking doll, she's amazing. A legend. So fuck you whoever would do that to Veronica Cartwright, um, she's fabulous.

**Mark:** So here's where Sigourney starts reading people.

**Nay:** *Yes*!

**Mark:** She was pissed off because people were stealing shots of her with the shaved head on the set and then publishing them in The Daily Mail, and getting really pissed off

**Michael:** Yeah, I would be too

**Jen:** That's legitimate

**Mark:** "February fifth, the canteen sequence. Rewrites still coming in. Sigourney's taking no prisoners today. First it's the hair." She comes up to Ralph and she goes, 'Your hair's too long, Ralph. We should put some lice in it.' "Then an hour later it's my costume. Quote, 'How come Aaron gets to wear a nice clean shirt while we're all in dirty crap here? So stupid Aaron-Eighty-five gets to look really cool then? Mister normal. She stalks off.'" And then Mister Brown goes, his quote, "I feel really weird now. All my paranoia is confirmed. Maybe she's anxious about having a shaved head but she successfully managed to dump her insecurity on me."

**Michael:** Oh my God

**Nay:** Holy shit

**Jen:** What the hell?

**Mark:** "Then, then Paul McGann who played Golic wanders over, and I tell him what happened. Sigourney walks past us, and I quote, 'Oh look, a little tete-a-tete between Mister Sublime and Mister Ridiculous.' Not over. 'I'll leave you guys to work out who's who.'"

**Nay:** *Oh*, my God.

**Michael:** Bad bitch

**Nay:** Seriously

**Jen:** Oh my God

**Michael:** I want her to read me now

**Mark:** But the last entry in the diaries regarding...

**Michael:** "And then Sigourney killed him."

**Mark:** Actually, no. There's one more. (Ralph) was in makeup one day and Sigourney walks past and says, "Don't make him look too pretty, I have to walk past him."

**Michael:** That's actually a really witty joke. That's not mean.

**Mark: "**'Trust your image, Sigourney,' I reply. She hovers, so for something to say, I tell her that my death has now been rewritten *five* times so far, including quote, 'Alien eats me, Golic cuts my throat, I fall into lead mold, Company machine gun me.' And then she says, 'I asked them to kill you off on page ten.' But a couple of hours later she pokes her tongue out at me.'" And gross, he makes a weird joke I'm not gonna repeat here. But he does say that she ended up apologizing for being mean at the premiere, and you know, everybody, you know. She was dealing with a lot on that set, everybody was. But I thought that was some little...

**Michael:** She probably felt she was...

**Mark:** Sigourney shade is good shade

**Jen:** I love it

**Nay:** So Studfinder, is Sigourney your stud?

**Mark:** Are you kidding? Now and forever

**Michael:** The off-screen shade

**Jen:** I took a screenshot from the special features. Even the Alien was bummed out during the production of this movie

**Mark:** For listeners at home, it's an Alien that looks like it lost a Race. Like it, like its team lost the Super Bowl. It just looks bummed as fuck

**Michael:** My Studfinder goes to Jen

**Mark:** Yeah. Jen and Sigourney

**Michael:** We have a thing called Studfinder where we give like an MVP of the movie

**Mark:** Who's the hottie of the movie

**Michael:** It's you

**Mark:** This week it's you and Sigourney

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** Sometimes you need to embrace darkness

**Jen:** Yeah, and I'm always willing to do that. Except apparently with (Netflix's) *The Haunting of Hill House*. I don't know why I draw the line there. That's just too relentlessly dark, there's not enough campy Charles S. Dutton I guess

**Jen:** ...and the AMC, Eli Roth's *History of Horror*, you can spot me talking about vampires and I think that episode comes out next weekend or this week or something?

**Michael:** I saw you on the slasher one, right?

**Jen:** Yeah, I'm in that one, it's for slashers

**Mark:** You mean *Eli Roth's History of Smoldering Looks at the Camera in Dark Rooms*?

**Jen:** There are a lot of attractive horror filmmakers I've been noticing. I dunno. Anyway.

**Brennan:** We've had most of them in this room

**Jen:** Yeah, I bet

**Michael:** We *have*

**Brennan:** Do you think the handle mistersublime is available?

**Mark:** Hopefully

**Michael:** I hope so

**Mark:** Or misterridiculous. It's here!

**Nay:** I'll let *you* decide which one

## **Previous Episode**

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## **Next Episode**

Episode 14: "Frederica, Queen of the Desert" (w/ Katya and Sam Wineman!)