Episode 25: “Clive Barker’s Scary Boner"

*This week the queer wolves go guestless to catch up and discuss the lengths one British woman will go for the good D. It’s time for 1987’s HELLRAISER!   Michael gets confessional about underwear, Mark really pushes his limits in finding as many ways as possible to describe the Cenobites’ outfits, Nay discovers a bloody dealbreaker, and we answer our first letter from a listener on air!   Plus, in Tea Time we sip on SPIDER-MAN: INTO THE SPIDERVERSE, THE WAILER, and Salt & Straw ice cream.*

## **Trivia**

**Michael:** This week we are comin' at ya from hell

**Mark:** Oooh!

**Michael:** We are literally in hell

**Mark:** Awwww

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** (sarcastically) Yaaaaay

**Mark:** They were all right. They were *all* correct. Here we are

**Nay:** It's cute in here

**Mark:** Yeah. It's very Bauhaus, I like it

**Michael:** Very cute

Topics brought up during the episode: "Bravo Row" on Santa Monica Boulevard and Robertson Boulevard in West Hollywood, *Hellraiser* trailer, music from Fifties drive-in trailers, the score for *Hellraiser*, *The Hellbound Heart*, the unused score for *Hellraiser* from Coil, Christoph Waltz, *Inglourious Basterds*, Brennan's appearance on Horror Queers, Brennan's appearance on Geek K.O. on the Leprechaun movie

## **Tea Time**

**Nay:** Instagram page called "Dildo Nightmares", *Copycat*

**Mark:** *Spider-Man: Into the Spider-verse*

**Michael:** Laughing at straight people

**Brennan:** *The Wailer* (aka *La Llorona*) (2006)

## **Shady Summaries**

**Michael:** I know we kind of don't like do Shady Summaries too much, but does anyone want to weigh in there at all?

**Mark:** I mean, I had one, but it's not shady

**Michael:** Yeah, I have a one-sentence summary as well. Go for it.

**Mark:** Mine is, "What I did for dick."

**Michael:** Oh my God, mine is very similar, "The dick so good you'd kill for it."

**Mark:** *Yeah*, you know. And I was going to, I don't know if there are any *Chorus Line* fans here, but I was like...

**Michael:** Are you gonna sing again?

**Mark:** Well, I was trying to figure out...

**Michael:** (sings) "'Bout diiiiick!"

**Mark:** Well, I was trying to-- well, it was like, what would the lyrics be, you know? But all I could come up with is, (sings) "Kiss your soul goodbye, and point me toward that good dick…" and it's just Julia singing about what she did for dick

**Nay:** Literally all I wrote was, "Wow, the things one does for good dick."

## **Pride Float**

**Michael:** So does it get a Pride float? *Hellraiser*?

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** Both? '87 and 2019?

**Mark:** It gets a whole leather weekend

**Nay:** Yeah, leather Pride

**Mark:** It gets a whole…

**Michael:** It gets a leather Pride in Palm Springs

**Mark:** Mmm-hmm

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** And one in Germany

**Mark:** Oh, it is the IML of horror films, and…

**Michael:** Oh, I wanna go to Germany, wear leather

**Mark:** (German accent) Berlin

**Michael:** A dungeon, or like a big factory?

**Mark:** Listen, people in Berlin know how to live. Let's put it that way, all right?

**Michael:** Just cigar smoke everywhere?

**Mark:** Mmm-hmm. *Whew!* It's too hot in here

**Nay:** It is actually *really* hot in here

**Michael:** Pride float, Nay, can you describe the Pride float?

**Nay:** I mean, it kinda looks like-- I guess the float-- you know, I don't know. I hadn't thought about it, I had thought about...

**Michael:** Hidden vaginas everywhere

**Nay:** Hidden? Like, "Surprise!"

**Michael:** Yeah, like they're there, but you have to find them. You know, kind of like throughout the movie

**Nay:** Ohhh, so it's like an interactive float?

**Mark:** They're like Easter eggs

**Michael:** Vagina, vagina hunt?

**Nay:** People are invited to come look for the vaginas?

**Michael:** Yeah, like the hidden vaginas

**Nay:** Like an Easter egg hunt

**Michael:** Yeah. Float's made of leather…

**Mark:** (sighs)

**Michael:** And I'm on it...

**Mark:** What would the float *be*? I mean basically...

**Michael:** The attic?

**Mark:** I…

**Michael:** Hell? Just a hell on earth float? Chains?

**Nay:** I mean, chains and hooks…

**Michael:** Whips and chains?

**Mark:** Someone suspended

**Nay:** And someone suspended…

**Michael:** *Yes!*

**Nay:** With consent

**Mark:** Yes

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** Suspended from the hooks…

**Michael:** Consensual suspension, yes

**Nay:** And then, you know, there's eight thousand parties

**Michael:** And everyone's throwing blood at them

**Brennan:** Oh! Sorry. I'm just imagining being suspended like P!nk during one of her concerts, like on the ribbons

**Michael:** Samesies, but chains in your skin

**Nay:** Yeah, the hooks…

**Michael:** Nipples and clamps...

**Mark:** Yeah, but we're talking about like a fetish night suspension, nipples clamped, full leather...

**Brennan:** Why not both?

**Mark:** I mean, I mean P!nk, doing a ribbon show in the middle…

**Michael:** If P!nk consents, she could be the one chained

**Mark:** I mean, listen, she's...

**Michael:** I love her

**Nay:** I mean the gays would show up for that

**Michael:** Oh fuck yeah

**Mark:** (as a basic white gay) "Oh my God, did you hear P!nk's into suspension now?"

**Nay:** The white gays

**Michael:** (as a basic white gay) "P!nk is in suspension and we have to throw blood on her?"

**Mark:** Can you imagine?

**Michael:** And she's singing, (sings) "I'm coming out so you better get this party started…"

**Nay:** (sings) "I'm comin', I'm comin'..."

**Mark:** All right. I think we've reached, we've hit a wall

**Michael:** I'm sorry, I'm tired

**Brennan:** iTunes used to make these "Essentials" playlists, and there was a "Queer Pride" one and that song was on it, and I don't know if this is a gay song, but I'll take it!

**Michael:** Well, this playlist is called "Hell Priest"

**Brennan:** Sure

## **Quotes**

**Michael:** Our Queerwolf daddy (the show's mascot) is here, so that's all that matters

**Nay:** Always. Always

**Michael:** We still need to name them

**Mark:** I mean, I've heard like, "Wolfie". Someone be like, "You know, I like your mascot, Wolfie."

**Michael:** I like that

**Mark:** And I'm like, "Sure." W-o-l-f-y or i-e?

**Michael:** i-e

**Mark:** Yeah

**Nay:** Awwww

**Michael:** That's how I saw it in my brain

**Brennnan:** Like Wolfrick?

**Nay:** Wolfrick?

**Mark:** We should give him the most generic gay clone name possible, like Derek

**Brennan:** Blake

**Michael:** Wolftopher?

**Mark:** Wolftopher?

**Michael:** That's so dumb!

**Mark:** (as a generic gay clone) "Deryk with a 'Y'."

**Michael:** (as a generic gay clone)."It's Mahtt. M-a-h-t-t."

**Mark:** (as a generic gay clone) "He's a host at Pump. And no, we're fully committed tonight."

**Mark:** I just know Salt and Straw has a chocolate brownie flavor that's good enough to make you kill your grandma

**Michael**: *Yesss!* Yeah, so I hadn't been to that part of (West Hollywood) in the longest time, and I went to that Salt and Straw three times in five days

**Mark:** Okay

**Michael:** And I had that, and I fucking killed my grandmother

**Mark:** All right!

**Michael:** It's so good!

**Mark:** R.I.P Nana Kennedy

**Michael:** What was that ice cream place by your house?

**Mark:** Can you imagine if we were *actually in hell…*

**Michael:** Talking about ice cream?

**Mark:** Sitting around the Clive Barker vision of hell, which is just dusty and cobwebby...

**Michael:** Chains...

**Mark:** Corridors…

**Michael:** Leather...

**Mark:** The Leviathan is in the corner and we're just hanging out going, "Oh my God, you know what the *best* Salt and Straw flavor is?"

**Nay:** It's like (indistinct) evil

**Michael:** I'm in a harness

**Brennan:** If they're right, and all the gays are going to hell, it's basically like twenty-four/seven brunch, right? Just flames everywhere...

**Nay:** *Flamers*

**Brennan:** And ice cream gossip

**Mark:** Hi, Producer Brennan!

**Brennan:** Oh yeah, that's me. Hello. This is gonna be a weird time

**Nay:** Drag brunch.

**Mark:** Drag brunch?

**Nay:** Drag brunch-off

**Mark:** You're right, it would be an eternal drag brunch

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** (chuckling) Oh, God!

**Brennan:** Satan *is* a drag character

**Mark:** Completely

**Nay:** Oh, definitely

**Brennan:** Those horns? Mmmm.

**Michael:** Go on...

**Mark:** 'Coz he's a messy bitch that lives for drama…

**Brennan:** Yeah

**Mark:** Getting kicked out of hell, I mean heaven

**Michael:** I just want to imagine like, *in* Clive Barker's hell, in leather, but discussing ice cream, *eating it* with those tiny little plastic spoons

**Mark:** Tiny plastic spoons

**Michael:** That don't melt

**Mark:** That's right, because in hell you can only get a sample. That's it. Like one a day

**Nay:** That's why it's hell

**Mark:** That's why it's hell

**Michael:** And then you're being asked, Nay, guys are asking you if they can have your Cheetos. That's your version of hell

**Nay:** (chuckling) That's my version of hell. (sighs) Oh my God. Really, anyone asking if they can have any of my food, period, is kind of my hell

**Michael:** That was like…

**Mark:** I don't think I'm a sharing person either

**Brennan:** Mmm-hmm

**Nay: *No!*** Who walks up to someone is like, "Can I have some of that?" "No! No you fucking can't!"

**Mark:** Listen. I find that a completely reasonable stance

**Nay:** *Thank you*!

**Michael:** Same! I don't mind going out to dinner with the intention of it being like a shared food thing

**Nay:** No, that's fine

**Brennan:** It has to be premeditation

**Nay:** Yes!

**Mark:** Exactly

**Nay:** I gotta be prepared to share

**Mark:** We're going to tapas, it's like, "All right…"

**Nay:** Yes. Exactly

**Mark:** "I am emotionally girding myself to *not* get enough of the thing that I like at tapas tonight. *That's fine*."

**Michael:** Next time either of you see Brian, ask *him* what I'm like when it comes to sharing food

**Nay:** Oh my God

**Mark:** Oh, boy

**Brennan:** Nay holds up a finger with eight stitches in it

**Michael:** (laughing) Like my teeth have bitten into it?

**Mark:** Like a feral animal?

**Michael:** It's… yeah. He likes to share

**Mark:** Okay

**Michael:** You offer him any food, he will say *yes* every single time.

**Nay:** Okay, so I won't

**Michael:** You know how people are like, "You want a bite of my sandwich?" And they're probably gonna say, "No," Brian'll be like, "Sure! Chomp." Hi honey, don't kill me

**Brennan:** If you don't want it to be eaten, then don't ask

**Nay:** I *want* to be less selfish in that way, but, I just, I haven't figured out how to do it

**Michael:** Yeah. I grew up in a family with six siblings, two parents, so nine of us at a dinner table…

**Nay:** Mmmm

**Michael:** Mmm-hmm. Prison eating

**Mark:** You know guys, I gotta say, hell isn't so bad. It's fine. I mean, it's slow, but…

**Michael:** You're all here

**Mark:** You know, it's like we're catching up. It's fine. When I got here, Brennan and I were like, "When was the last time we had a host-less, er, a guest-less show?" Host-less show, just dead air. Just a fuckin' hour of dead air

**Michael:** When *was* the last time we did?

**Mark:** I don't remember

**Brennan:** I'll look it up, hold on

**Mark:** *Rebecca*?

**Michael and Nay:** No…

**Michael:** It was one of the Listener Request Months, I think

**Nay:** *Night Warning*

**Brennan:** *Night Warning*, yeah

**Mark:** *Ohhhhh!*

**Mark and Nay:** (sung like the Hot Pockets jingle) *Night Warning*!

**Michael:** Oh! That was a good one for us to do

**Mark:** Yeah. Yeah

**Michael:** I guess

**Mark:** I feel like every time we *don't* have a guest, we're not on good behaviour, and this is like the episode, the wheels just *come off*, and we just careen off the road into the woods, and here we are

**Michael:** So great

**Mark:** And here we are!

**Nay:** I brought something really special. I fell into this particular hole on this Instagram page called, "Dildo Nightmares".

**Michael:** Oh my God!

**Mark:** Which hole?

**Nay:** Which is *fucking amazing*

**Mark:** Curiously, that was an alternate title for *Hellraiser*

**Nay:** Right. So this is a pro. You all need to go @ dildonightmares on Instagram and just look at the…

**Michael:** Oh! *Myyyyyyy* Lord!

**Nay:** Michael's looking right now

**Mark:** I like that we started with like, movies and TV shows, and now it's just like…

**Michael:** Oh my God!

**Mark:** This horrifying sex Instagram

**Nay:** Well, I was…

**Michael:** This body like bent over backwards…

**Nay:** I was gonna talk about watching *Copycat* for the first time in a long time

**Mark:** That is a fun movie

**Michael:** That's a dildo nightmare, too

**Nay:** Right. But when Michael was checking Mark's ass for something earlier...

**Michael:** Oh hell no!

**Nay:** Oh, I know. They're awful!

**Brennan:** *What?*

**Mark:** What the fuck am I looking at?

**Michael:** It's like a face on a butt…

**Brennan:** Is it a dildo?

**Michael:** But the nose is where, in the buttcrack

**Mark:** *Oh!*

**Nay:** So, they're not *all* dildo…

**Brennan:** Okay

**Nay:** Some of them are like, half a Real Doll, like maybe it's just a torso

**Brennan:** Oh, okay

**Michael:** I love that the caption that whoever posted this wrote just says, "I'm personally offended by this."

**Nay:** (laughing) Yeah! It's a *great* Instagram

**Mark:** It's like, it's not sex positive, it's not sex negative, it's like sex mrrrrr?

**Nay:** It's like, "We found this thing, you have to look at this."

**Mark:** Right. "Here, now this is your problem."

**Brennan:** I'm into that

**Michael:** Now this is cute. A big dildo sticking out of a pumpkin

**Mark:** (groans)

**Michael:** Super cute

**Nay:** On-brand for us

**Brennan:** In a couple months our Tea Times are just gonna be, "I saw a bird today."

**Michael:** I could go on about that. That was hot

**Nay:** So yeah, that's what I did

**Mark:** I think we lost Michael until the end of the episode

**Nay:** Yeah. Michael, give me my phone back

**Mark:** ...and I wanted to see (*Into the Spider-verse*) on a big screen, and it's-- I'm literally competing with Dildo Nightmares now

**Michael:** I'm listening!

**Brennan:** Sorry, yes!

**Michael:** Never thought you'd say *that* in your life, did you?

**Mark:** Listen, I…

**Michael:** And you were losing

**Mark:** "All my life, I have competed for attention with Dildo Nightmares."

**Michael:** "I always lose to the Dildo Nightmare."

**Mark:** *Spider-Man: Into the Spider-verse* is, you know, I was just prepared to be like, "Okay, it's a really great cartoon." Like people had been waxing ecstatic about it so long, and I was so behind, and it was, it's just kind of magical

**Michael:** Won the Oscar, right?

**Mark:** Yes. It's gorgeous, first of all, and it manages to cover so many bases that most superhero movies don't ever come near because clearly the live-action ones are terrified of being too, for lack of a better term, quote-unquote "out of the box" in terms of how they approach classic IP. And this movie is utterly *bananas* and *heartfelt* and, I mean it manages to cover everything from Brooklyn gentrification to being biracial, to having Spider-Pigs. John Mulaney as Spider-Pig?

**Nay:** Uh-huh

**Michael:** He's cute

**Mark:** Oh, he's *fantastic*. It is a movie that is *insane* and wonderful…

**Michael:** Oh, that's great

**Mark:** And so well-written and so well performed, and it's-- the animation is mind-boggling and inspired

**Michael:** I'm glad you said "performed", because people underestimate how hard voice acting is

**Mark:** The voice acting performances to a "T" are fabulous

**Michael:** It's hard work

**Mark:** Yeah. I am just, very end of the line in terms of like, the last person in America to see it…

**Michael:** I haven't seen it either. Have you seen it, Nay?

**Nay:** No

**Michael:** Brennan?

**Brennan:** I have! It's so rare to see a movie that's luscious and experimental in its animation, because it's really copying the dot matrix comic book printing…

**Michael:** It *looks* beautiful

**Brennan:** But also actually has a good story and characters you relate to. Miles Morales's Spider-Man is…

**Mark:** Wonderful!

**Brennan:** The Prince of the World

**Mark:** Yes! I enjoyed it more than I ever have any other live-action Spider-Man movie

**Brennan:** Oh for sure

**Michael and Nay:** Oh, cool!

**Michael:** Dinner and a movie, Nay

**Mark:** The animation-- yeah, you guys need to see it on a big screen before it disappears. Make the time, because by the end, the animation is downright psychedelic.

**Brennan:** Oh, yeah. It's trippy as hell

**Nay:** That sounds awesome

**Mark:** It is trippy, it is-- I dunno. I just can't rec it enough

**Michael:** Before we get into La Loner, I can't even say it, the corner for Brennan, *I* have been laughing at straight people this week, for two reasons

**Nay:** *This week?*

**Michael:** Especially this week. One, I was loving all the straight people being obsessed with Lady Gaga and Bradley Cooper's performance and all the goss they were giving each other about whether or not they were sleeping with each other…

**Mark:** Oh, God

**Michael:** I'm like, "Straight people are so adorable!" So that was tickling my funny bone this week, but the other thing that has been-- I've been *riotous* for two straight weeks about is the promotional campaign for ABC's *Whiskey Cavalier*

**Mark:** *Stop!*

**Michael:** (laughs) I like, *can't* get enough of it! It is *so* hilarious. Its tagline is, "Danger just got fun." I haven't watched it, never will. I just *love it* so much, because the ads are hilarious. Just everything about it is funny. My favorite was during the Oscars. They must have showed commercials for it every twelve seconds

**Mark:** Endless, endless commercials during the broadcast

**Michael:** My favorite was the quote that they kept doing, "The season's cool new show." For some reason that was just killing me, 'coz I was imagining it being like my seventy-five year old aunt being like, "They're totally right. It *is* the season's cool new show."

**Mark:** I found the ads, I almost started to find the ads to be sort of charming…

**Michael:** Yeah!

**Mark:** It seemed like the leads knew…

**Michael:** Yeah, they're having fun

**Mark:** Their look, and they're delivering their punchlines like, "Yeah. We're doing *this* show. We're sexy *sexy sexy* spies! And we're pretending to not like each other even though we're gonna bone!"

**Michael:** It's like *Moonlighting* by way of the CIA, y'know?

**Mark:** Yeah

**Michael:** I just kind of love that ABC's ads for it, too, are kind of a wink because they're totally…

**Mark:** They're leaning into the hokey

**Michael:** They're leaning into the hokey, and there's also no its ands or buts about it, they're literally trying to sell it like it's a *Grey's Anatomy* type show. The ads are using the same exact music from *Grey's Anatomy* that were promos for that show three years ago. They're setting up the characters the exact same way, like the sex, everything. I'm like…

**Mark:** Meredith Grey shows up and cries

**Michael:** Yeah. Patrick Dempsey, like the guy is probably called like, "McCIA-y". It's just, I dunno. It tickled my funny bone all week

**Mark:** Listen

**Michael:** And on the way here I kept seeing bus stops with their faces, and I like, was laughing because they're selling the sex and they look like brother and sister.

**Mark:** That would be quite a *twist*

**Michael:** That would be *amazing*

**Nay:** Right. Y'all meet on 23andme, okay?

**Mark:** That would be fascinating. Where you're like, "Uh-huh, they're spies, okay they're attracted to each oth-- they're *what???*"

**Michael:** "*Whaaaaaaat???*"

**Mark:** "*Well, I guess I have to watch now!*"

**Michael:** Scott Foley's a tasty dish, and Lauren Cohan, she's getting that bank finally. Good for her

**Mark:** Listen. She survived *Walking Dead* for a long ass time.

**Michael:** She was like, "Fuck you. You're not gonna give me my money? I'll get it elsewhere."

**Brennan:** And Scott Foley has looked twenty-five since he started working in 1860

**Mark:** Oh yeah

**Brennan:** He's been around *forever!*

**Michael:** He looks so great

**Mark:** No, there is a portrait of him full of worms in his attic. It's bizarre

**Michael:** That would actually tie him to today's movie

**Nay:** True

**Mark:** Scary things in an attic?

**Michael:** Scott Foley is the real-life Frank?

**Mark:** Hey. Listen.

**Nay:** All these hints about what we're talking about

**Mark:** No, I think the cat's out of the bag, we're pretty much like, "Splat!"

**Nay:** "Clive Barker's Hell"

**Brennan:** Honestly (*The Wailer*) wasn't very good. But…

**Michael:** Hooray

**Nay:** Shocking

**Brennan:** It was very much in my wheelhouse because it was a straight-up *Cabin in the Woods* slasher movie.

**Michael:** I love that!

**Nay:** Oh, cool!

**Brennan:** Yeah, *about* La Llorona

**Nay:** That actually sounds so good!

**Brennan:** Yeah, um, the kills are *very* weak, because they really couldn't afford to make much gore, so it's like you see a shadow of a woman and then it cuts to them covered in blood, and you're like, "I'm sure something happened. It must've been scary." But the thing is, there's one *really* good scene involving a bathtub where her face gets pressed up against a shower curtain, which is pretty cool

**Nay:** Ew, God!

**Brennan:** Yeah. She also slashes people with these really…

**Mark:** That's actually, we should pause there for a second because that's-- I don't wanna run by that.

**Brennan:** Okay

**Mark:** That's so disgusting

**Nay:** For real! Ugh!

**Mark:** To have-- it's bad enough that you have to touch it, to pull it and push it…

**Nay:** Right!

**Mark:** But to have your face, buh

**Nay:** My fucking face? No. Absolutely not

**Mark:** *Wow*

**Nay and Mark:** (noises of disgust)

**Brennan:** Yeah, that's gross. She slashes people up with these five long Freddy Kreuger-like fingers

**Nay:** *Oh yes!*

**Brennan:** Which is *not* part of the folklore

**Mark:** No, I don't recall that

**Michael:** Do they have anything on 'em or are they just her fingernails?

**Brennan:** No, they're just really sharp

**Nay:** This is modern La Llorona with the stiletto acrylics

**Brennan:** Oooh, I love that!

**Nay:** That's hot

**Michael:** She could stab me!

**Nay:** (chuckling) You're so stupid

**Brennan:** It's a cabin in the woods movie. There's three guys, there's three girls, but the guys are shirtless for the *entire* movie…

**Mark:** That's different

**Brennan:** And there's like a five minute scene of them frolicking around in this river full of waterfalls and it's very *Call Me By Your Name*

**Mark:** Like *Room With a View*

**Brennan:** Yeah!

**Mark:** And have sex with La Llorona

**Michael:** They lose their pants by then?

**Brennan:** (sighs) No. But there's this one guy, it's 2006, he's wearing this *black* sweatband around his arm about half an inch from his elbow the *entire* movie. It's over the course of a whole weekend. He has like three different wardrobe changes, including taking his shirt off to go swimming, the sweatband is there.

**Nay:** With like a Livestrong bracelet? Wait, what year was this?

**Brennan:** Oh yeah, no, that's totally-- I feel like if you took the sweatband off, his arm would just fall off

**Nay:** Maybe!

**Michael:** Or it's just a really bad cut

**Brennan:** I don't know. It was disturbing. Speaking of moldy, just mildew situations…

**Nay:** No, the shower curtain! Bluh!

**Brennan:** What else? (sings) There's one more thing! I lost it! (normal voice) Okay, it's just-- it wasn't great. But there were those interesting elements and you know, a movie with a lot of shirtless men I will watch, so I can live with it

**Nay:** Yeah. Yeah

**Mark:** You know, there's at least seventy-three more La Llorona movies

**Brennan:** Oh! I'm almost halfway through. I have like, nine left. It's very exciting

**Mark:** *Oh!*

**Michael:** Well, you'll have a tenth in April with the theatrical one coming out, right?

**Mark:** Making her long-awaited return

**Brennan:** Hey. There's been some great movies, and some not great movies, just like with any topic

**Mark:** Exactly

**Brennan:** I actually have a letter from a listener that I'd like to share really quick if that's okay?

**Nay:** Oooh, *yes!*

**Michael:** Yeah

**Mark:** (Muppet voice)."Mailbag!"

**Brennan:** I know! We should clip that out and use it as our intro every time

**Michael:** There's only one letter in it

**Nay:** Well, yeah, of course

**Brennan:** It's like a plastic sandwich bag

**Michael:** More like a mail tray?

**Nay:** Someone's underwear

**Michael:** Into it

**Mark:** Jesus, Nay

**Michael:** *Panty pudding*

**Brennan:** It's a bit of a long letter, so I'll try to get through it pretty fast, and I took out some of the parts that were just in praise of us, thank you…

**Nay:** (mock annoyance) Goddammit it, Brennan

**Mark:** I need positive reinforcement

**Nay:** Right? I feel like shit today, can you read that? No, I'm kidding

**Michael:** I need it this week

**Brennan:** It's a long letter

**Mark:** All right, all right

**Brennan:** So the guy who sent it in, his name is Jeremy Grace, and he is a fourth-year film student and disability advocate…

**Michael:** Hi, Jeremy!

**Mark:** Hello Jeremy

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm

**Brennan:** Yeah! Thank you so much. But yeah, he was born with cerebral palsy, which impacts his mobility, so he uses a walker to get around, but he's also a huge horror fan and a member of the LGBT community so this is what he says: "*I've been thinking about disabled representation in horror recently and how there isn't much of it. Ones that come to mind are like Franklin in The Texas Chain Saw Massacre (1974), and Mark in Friday the 13th Part 2*. *They're shown as whiny and insufferable and therefore marked for death.*" Brennan cutting in, editor's note, to say I disagree that Mark is whiny. He is very hot and beautiful and I love him. Anyway, back to the letter. "*As a disabled person, I never identified with these characters. Recently there has been better representation within the genre with films like Hush (2016) and A Quiet Place. Those films are displaying strong, independent characters who are capable of fighting against the monster. But not many positive portrayals other than that come to mind. Funnily enough, one character I **did** identify with was the Blind Man in Don't Breathe. I know he's the villain, but seeing a disabled character who is capable of owning and mastering the environment around him, and is also able to hold his own against an able-bodied opponent without being easily defeated was something I found really cool."*

**Nay:** Oh yeah

**Brennan:** "*There's not a lot of that in horror, so for me, despite him being the antagonist, I was able to identify with certain elements of the character. My hope is to one day see a horror film with a physically disabled character where they're not annoying or marked for death or the villains, but capable of battling the monster without help while also being able to generate empathy from the audience. It's a question I've been pondering for a while, so I thought I'd reach out and ask if you guys can think of any notable or positive depictions of physically disabled people within horror cinema. I do love to listen to you, so maybe you have some thoughts*."

**Nay:** The first person that came to mind is the doctor on *The Walking Dead* after he has to cut his leg off

**Michael:** Hershel!

**Nay:** Hershel, yeah. And everyone kind of  helps, like he's not just an afterthought like, "Well, Hershel's automatically dead because he can't run with the rest of us."

**Brennan:** That's a good one. And the one that rose to mind immediately for me was Fiona Dourif's character in *Curse* (*of Chucky)* and *Cult of Chucky*. She's a paraplegic, she's in a wheelchair

**Michael:** Yes! I was trying to remember her name. Especially, to go back to Hershel, I was gonna add to what Nay was saying, the fact that he took this, what happened to him, and ended up finding something he was even better at in the process on the show

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** Which was essentially caring for everybody. Didn't they put, didn't they almost have him start acting-- maybe I'm misremembering because I stopped watching the show, but his character after that started almost acting like the in-house doctor at that point, still?

**Nay:** Definitely. Yeah. I literally forgot that he's a vet until you just said he-- and I'm like, "Oh yeah, he isn't even a doctor!" But yeah, he's a veterinarian

**Michael:** Yeah. So that's pretty cool. It's a good question. I almost would like to have time to think about it and discuss it

**Mark:** I mean, the one that comes to mind is Mike Flanagan's *Hush*. She's pretty badass

**Nay:** Hell yeah

**Michael:** She's amazing. It's a great movie

**Mark:** Yeah. It's a really, really effective movie, and uh, you know, yeah. That's all I gotta say… I mean, certainly there's more

**Nay:** Y'all tweet us with your characters

**Mark:** Please do

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** So we can retweet it

**Michael:** Yeah. Tweet at us your favorite characters and then we'll also have to pick one of those films

**Nay:** Yeah

**Brennan:** Yeah, for sure! Obviously I can only speak for myself, but as an able-bodied person this isn't a topic that I feel like I can approach with a level of, I dunno, worthiness, or… the words are not coming

**Mark:** Authority?

**Brennan:** Yeah, authority. I don't have an authority on this, but I would love to hear from people. I would also like to say like, literally Ash in *Army of Darkness* has one arm and he kills everyone in that movie

**Mark:** Oh! I mean, *hello*.

**Michael:** Yeah, it's a really good question to pose and it's a really good conversation starter. It's a topic we haven't brought up *here* at all, I don't think? So, was it Jeremy?

**Brennan and Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** Thank you for your letter

**Mark:** Thank you, Jeremy

**Nay:** For sure

**Brennan:** If anyone else wants to send in letters, we'll take 'em.

**Michael:** But Fiona Dourif's character in those two Chucky movies are pretty great

**Brennan:** *Nica* is her name

**Michael:** Nica. And she's the final girl. In *Curse*.

**Brennan:** Yes she is. Spoiler alert: No comment on the other one. But yeah, she's great in both of those movies, and both of those movies are good. There are other ones, like *Los Ojos de Julia*, that Guillermo del Toro produced. It's about a woman that's slowly going blind and kind of discovering this weird world of shadow men who want to murder her.

**Michael:** What's that wonderful one movie from the Sixties with…?

**Brennan:** *Wait Until Dark?*

**Michael:** Is that it?

**Brennan:** Probably…

**Mark:** With Audrey Hepburn?

**Michael:** Yes! Amazing film

**Nay:** *Oh. Yes!*

**Mark:** And then there's also that episode of *Night Gallery* with Joan Crawford that Steven Spielberg directed, and she plays a really rich lady who is vision-impaired and she wants to see, and is unfortunately too proud to follow doctor's orders and crazy things happen

**Brennan:** Oooh!

**Mark:** That's a good one

**Michael:** I'd really like to do research on like, a *queer* horror film, you know what I mean?

**Brennan:** Yeah! Intersectionality in terms of horror can be very difficult sometimes, but I'm sure there's *something* out there

**Michael:** Yeah

**Mark:** Get at us, please

**Michael:** Thank you, Jeremy

**Nay:** *Oh, Julia*

**Michael:** Julia. Bad bitch

**Mark:** Oh!

**Michael:** I kept making note of her purple eyeshadow

**Nay:** Oh Lord, she had some *looks*

**Michael:** *Mmm-hmm*

**Nay:** She had some looks. I *mean*...

**Mark:** Oh, her "Mantrap at the Bar" look?

**Nay:** Ha-HA! Yes!

**Mark:** If I had an ounce of bravery, I would replicate that for Halloween, but I just can't pull off orange

**Nay:** (sighs) That *blouse*

**Michael:** Her freshly-fucked hair look…

**Nay:** Okay, Michael

**Michael:** Where it looks like she just put mousse just on the sides...

**Nay:** Right

**Michael:** I'm like, "I get it."

**Mark:** No. No. She looks like the Memorex guy, like she just got-- it's fucking fantastic

**Michael:** I was like, "Maybe it's his cum." Anyway…

**Nay:** Right

**Mark:** Jesus!

**Nay:** I thought that as well

**Michael:** Good "D" cum?

**Nay:** Nothing would surprise me in this movie

**Mark:** You guys both watched the movie going, "You know what? That could be jizz."

**Michael:** Good "D" Cum hair products. It'll hold that wind from that-- anyway

**Mark:** Christopher Young opening the movie with a waltz is so, it's so inspired and it's such a counterpoint to how utterly gory and nasty the movie is that it's what creates the tension just right off the bat in *Hellraiser* that your entry into the movie *is* romantic...

**Michael:** Right

**Mark:** And grand, and kind of fantastical, and then it drags you into this completely opposite direction that is *utterly* fucking depraved. And it's fantastic

**Michael** It is! But at the same time, it's still a love story in a way…

**Mark:** Oh my God, it so is!

**Michael:** So the music goes along perfectly. And my thought again, and I know I've brought this up before, the Eighties were just, and maybe even the Nineties and late Seventies, horror films loved a long title sequence with an amazing piece of music to start off the movie

**Mark:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** Watching this movie, and I haven't seen it since college, as like a full-fledged adult, the music means more to me now than it did then. And granted, there's scores to me that were like, *Scream* (1996) is a good example, and *Jaws* and *Halloween* (1978) are scores that you hear the first time and they immediately register in your head and they stay there. But as a young adult, I don't remember the score much, but thirty seconds into this movie, you hear the music and it's literally a black screen with white title cards and you're like, "I'm fuckin' in."

**Mark:** Yeah

**Michael:** It sets the mood perfectly. And the music (Coil's unused theme for *Hellraiser*) Brennan just played, in a way-- we only heard what, twenty seconds?

**Mark:** Mmm-hmm

**Brennan:** Yeah

**Michael:** I was like, "Oh, this is just a play on *Nightmare on Elm Street*."

**Mark:** It's ambient, it's ponderous, and it has its place…

**Michael:** It sounds like a *Nightmare on Elm Street* film, which is also Christopher Young, right?

**Brennan:** He did Part Two

**Michael:** Okay

**Mark:** I'm not sure that *Hellraiser* would-- I think it would be lauded for the visuals and the phenomenal story, and you know, just the *care* that Clive Barker put into it, but I don't know that it would have reached the heights that it did without Christopher Young's score

**Michael:** Well, yeah, you're right, it's-- when you look at it visually, there's not a big scope. I mean the set pieces are amazing and it's gorgeous and it's beautiful, but it's essentially a few locations…

**Mark:** It's a house

**Michael:** The score makes it feel …

**Mark:** Epic

**Michael:** Like a monstrous film, like a *huge* film

**Mark:** The score really underscores the completely epic themes of the movie, and I dunno…

**Michael:** Yeah. It's very-- it's such a grand movie, but if you do take that music away, the scale is completely gone.

**Michael:** What do you think, Nay?

**Nay:** I think it's a fucking *disgusting* movie. I mean, I love it, yeah, of course.

**Michael:** Frank reborn is just like...

**Nay:** Jesus fucking Christ

**Michael:** The start of that is just so fucking *awesome*

**Mark:** *Fabulous*

**Nay:** Oh. My God

**Mark:** *Fabulous*

**Michael:** And we get a "D" shot…

**Mark:** (to Nay) And you'd seen it before

**Nay:** Yes. I watched it for the first time, I think, ooof, I might have *just* become a teenager. I dunno. It was early

**Michael:** (as Nay) "It was like two weeks ago!"

**Nay:** Right. And I was remembering as I was rewatching it now, how terrified I was that I was going to go to hell. I was like, "There is no way that I'm a good Christian girl if I'm trying my *damndest* to watch this movie," like, y'know

**Mark:** Right

**Nay:** I had to wait, like, "Okay, Mom's at work, dah-dah-dah-dah," you know, all these things and it *freaked* me the *fuck* out. Obviously I'd never seen anything like that, and I think it *still* freaks me the fuck out when I watch it

**Michael:** Oh! It's so, like…

**Mark:** Titillating

**Michael:** Dirty. Titillating though, too

**Mark:** Dirty. It's a really dirty movie.

**Michael:** "Do I have a scary boner?"

**Mark:** (British announcer voice) "Clive Barker's… *Scary Boner*"

**Michael:** "*Scary Boner*"

**Mark:** To me, I mean, certainly in the Eighties, it feels like it's one of the pop horror films that's post-religion in a way that it combines elements of Judeo-Christian iconography and Buddhism in equal measure, while also mixing in the decade's most obvious quote-unquote "threat to religion," the gays. And I dunno, it's interesting. I always thought that because it includes hell, I always thought of it as kind of like, a masturbatory fever-dream of the Christian right, you know, Clive Barker sort of satirizing that

**Michael:** Yes. One hundred percent

**Mark:** But watching it for the hundredth time…

**Michael:** This week

**Mark:** This week. Seriously, I love this movie so much. I was like, "Oh, this is much more of a Buddhist horror film in a lot of ways." He's including an *idea* of hell, but certainly not the Biblical version of hell that we've come to be-- for many of us have come to be taught. You know, in Buddhism, they teach all suffering, and I'm misquoting, all suffering is the result of the pursuit of pleasure, and Frank and Julia are definitely in a singular quest to *seek* pleasure, and all it does...

**Michael:** Right. Maximum amounts?

**Mark:** Yeah. Unleashes, and to unleash suffering everywhere. It's interesting to compare *Hellbound Heart* to the movie, in that when Frank talks to Julia in the movie like, "This, the box." Which in the movie they call the Lament Configuration, whereas in the novella it's called the Marchand Box. But you know, he goes, "I was seeking out pleasure or pain, I didn't care which." In *Hellbound Heart* he's definitely seeking out pleasure, like levels of pleasure that are untold. Has anybody read the novella?

**Michael:** (whispers) No, I'm sorry

**Mark:** Do you wanna know-- so, what I find fascinating is that the movie sort of glides past this, but in the novella, the Cenobites ask Frank for consent

**Michael:** Oh, interesting

**Mark:** When they appear, when he finally figures out, you know, he unlocks the box and they appear, they literally say to him, like, "Will you-- do you want to come with us?" And they're like, "Your most treasured depravity is child's play beside the experiences that we offer. Will you partake of them?"

**Nay:** (chuckles) *Hellooo*

**Mark:** And Frank is like, "Uh. Uh. Uh…" And they just ask for permission. "Will you?"

**Michael:** So if he had said, "No," they would be like, "*Byeeee!*"

**Mark:** Maybe?

**Michael:** Interesting

**Mark:** We'll never know because Frank is like…

**Michael:** (deep voice) "Yup!"

**Mark:** Frank says, "Show me." Do you want me to read to you just a little bit, of like, what…

**Brennan:** Yes

**Mark:** Okay. "They needed no further invitation to raise the curtain. He heard the door creak as it was opened, and turned to see that the world beyond the threshold had disappeared, to be replaced by the same panic-filled darkness from which the members of the order had stepped. He looked back towards the Cenobites, seeking some explanation for this, but they disappeared. Their passing had not gone unrecorded however, they had taken the flowers with them, leaving only bare boards, and on the wall the offerings he had assembled were blackening as if in the heat of some invisible flame. He smelled the bitterness of their consumption. It pricked his nostrils so acutely he was certain they would bleed. But the smell of burning was only the beginning. No sooner had he registered it then half-a-dozen other scents filled his head. Perfumes he had scarcely noticed until now were suddenly overpoweringly strong, the lingering scent of filch blossoms, the scent of paint on the ceiling and the sap on the wood beneath his feet all filled his head. He put a hand to his mouth and nose to stop the onslaught overcoming him, but the stench of perspiration on his fingers made him giddy. He might have been driven to nausea had there not been the fresh sensations flooding his system from each nerve ending and taste bud." Basically, the beginning of his experience with the Cenobites is every single sense going into fucking overdrive…

**Michael:** Right. Completely heightened

**Mark:** What's terrifying is that by the end of the chapter, when all of it (snaps fingers) just goes away and he thinks for two seconds, "Oh I'm dead, I don't exist anymore," *that's* essentially when the Engineer, who is like the Head Cenobite, shows up and is like, "Oh, you've woken up. Now we can begin." And it's like, "Oh, *fuck*!" So what I find fascinating is that in the movie, (Frank) is like, "Whoa, I unlocked the box!" And then it's like, "Surprise! Hooks!"

**Nay:** Right

**Mark:** And it's just like, "Here you go, you go to hell!" In the novella, there's consent. In both novella and film, Kirsty is not, they don't ask Kirsty for consent when she unlocks, and I'm just sort of like, I found the inclusion of consent in the novella fascinating. Does anyone have any thoughts about *why* Kirsty doesn't get that or…

**Nay:** I don't know

**Mark:** I know. It's like…

**Michael:** I mean, it's almost 'coz you want a quick answer from a man versus a woman, you know, I mean?

**Nay:** Yeah, maybe

**Mark:** Maybe they have a little more of a yen for a young gal like Kirsty, I dunno. And they were like, "Oh, Frank. Well…"

**Michael:** "You want to?"

**Mark:** "You really? I mean…"

**Nay:** Oh, Frank

**Brennan:** Frank's a dish, though

**Michael:** Yeah

**Mark:** (whispers) Oh my God! (normal voice) Did you know that original sex scene between him and Julia included spanking and anal sex?

**Nay:** Yes! I was reading about that

**Mark:** Yeah

**Nay:** I'm so sad all that had to get cut

**Mark:** Can you imagine

**Michael:** Did they film it?

**Mark:** Julia's just gettin' it in the butt, on her wedding dress, I mean…

**Michael:** I wish she had strapped one of those Dildo Nightmares on and given it to him

**Nay:** *Yo*. Right

**Brennan:** The one with the face on it?

**Michael:** Yeah

**Mark:** (British announcer voice) "Clive Barker's *Dildo Nightmares*."

**Nay:** I don't think Frank's a switch, though

**Michael:** You don't?

**Nay:** Mm-mmm. I really don't

**Brennan:** I think after he opens the box he probably is!

**Mark:** Yeah

**Nay:** Hmmmm

**Mark:** They *make* you be a switch, I guess!

**Nay:** Right. You doin' whatever they say, basically. But I don't know if Frank on his own-- I feel like the way Julia would just love to lay back on the bed, I'm like, "You're a little pillow princess bottom. And you ain't never been fucked like this before. You don't make yourself cum very well, so you are like *hooked* on this man." I feel really bad for straight women

**Mark:** I just love that moment when Julia opens the door in that flashback and she sees Frank. She has this sort of glazed look like she's a children's show host. She's just like, (chirpily as a children's show host)."Hello! Oh hi! Oh, you're Frank! Hi!"

**Nay:** *Yo*, those flashbacks be fuckin' her up

**Mark:** Like he literally…

**Michael:** They're amazing. I love that they felt the need to give her a different hairdo...

**Mark:** Yeah

**Michael:** And it was Weird Al. And like, she can *keep* the same hair, it wasn't that long ago

**Mark:** I thought more Richard Simmons, because it was rich red, and y'know

**Michael:** *Love* that she got fucked on her wedding dress, though

**Mark:** I mean, y'know, I think that's why *Hellraiser* always really resonated with me is the idea that it was-- it treated sex, not as a means for the monster to come get you, but rather sex played its own role. There's an elegance to the way sex is handled in the *Hellraiser* universe, or at least in the first film. Because it feels like sex doesn't really have as much-- and *Part III*, it kind of does, but it's so visceral and it's such a motivating factor

**Michael:** My thought during the movie was that Frank was poly. I actually was watching it, and I go, "He will have sex with anyone he finds attractive. He is definitely a queer character even though they're not saying it…"

**Nay:** We are not saying poly people just wanna have sex with everyone they're attracted to

**Michael:** Yeah. But, I guess, yeah, I put that poorly

**Nay:** But if he wasn't poly, he needed to be, otherwise he out here cheatin'

**Michael:** Yeah

**Mark:** Frank is an Eve figure, right? Frank is the one who's like, "I'm gonna pick the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge" kind of thing, and you know, knowing full well that he's going to unleash terrible terribleness in pursuit of pleasure. But what I love also, again, about *Hellraiser* is that it feels like there is no innocent victims in *Hellraiser*, like it's such a cynical movie about the characters, where like, Frank is not a victim. At all

**Michael:** No

**Mark:** Julia is definitely not a victim

**Michael:** No

**Mark:** Even Kirsty, who seems like the doofiest girl alive at the top, she's like, (doofy girl voice)."Hi Daddy! Whatever! I'm just boppin' around," (normal voice) you know, at that weird dinner scene with Chip, or what's-his-name?

**Michael:** Steven?

**Mark:** (as Kirsty's dad) "So lie down." (normal voice) I'm like, "Ew! God!"

**Michael:** But there's also an aspect, like Julia's not an innocent victim, but I, I was kind of rooting for her every single time 'coz I'm like, "These guys are dicks! They're pigs." Like the first guy she brings home, you know, is like, "This is what you brought me here for, isn't it? So let's get on with it. You change your fuckin' mind?" I'm like, "Kill him. Kill that motherfucker."

**Nay:** *God*. Right. Definitely

**Michael:** And the second guy essentially alludes…

**Mark:** (amused) I love that we're like, the guy was expecting sex. "We hate you! Kill him. Kill him!"

**Nay:** But I mean, to *say* it?

**Michael:** Yeah, it's one thing to expect sex, and then when you're not getting what you expect instead of just walking away and being fine with it, he's kind of like, "Fuck you!"

**Mark:** I know, it's true

**Michael:** "Give me what I came here for"?

**Mark:** Of course

**Michael:** And I'm like, "You came here to die, bitch."

**Nay:** Yeah

**Mark:** "You brought me to your scary sex-murder attic…"

**Michael:** "And I'm gonna sex-murder you." You're getting what you want. And then man-bait number two, he alludes to the fact, and this is the way I read it, when he's walking up the stairs and he just casually is like, "I like to be careful," as if he's saying she's some-- like there's something uncouth about her because she dares to be sexual, you know what I mean? By her bringing him home, he's essentially calling her quote-unquote "dirty", where it's like, he's involved in this process too, you know what I mean? So I'm like, "Kill him. Kill that fucker." Like he's totally shaming her in that one little line

**Mark:** Well, it's interesting because the more Julia-- the first time Julia brings a snack home for Frank, y'know, she's *terrified*

**Michael:** A Little Debbie?

**Mark:** Yeah. Exactly. "Postmates!" But that montage eventually, you know, I'm like, "Oh shit, six, seven, eight, I don't know how many randos she's brought home from that airport bar." She starts to look like she's like, "Oh, these guys are so gross, who gives a shit." I love how unrepentantly *awful* Julia is

**Michael:** It's pretty great

**Mark:** She's *so*-- there's like *no* redeeming qualities to Julia, not really

**Michael:** Well, the last guy's like, "I get lonely," and she's like, "Don't we all," and she's like, "Here, honey."

**Mark:** I take it back. It's not that there's *no* redeeming qualities, I think that it takes a certain level of love for her to...

**Michael:** Well, she says, "I'll do anything you want," you know?

**Nay:** *Wow*

**Mark:** Yeah

**Nay:** I ain't *never* felt like that, *okay??*

**Michael and Mark:** Right???

**Nay:** Yeah

**Mark:** "I need you to bring home rando businessmen…"

**Michael:** "I need *skin*. Bring me home skin. And blood."

**Mark:** That's…

**Michael:** While I was watching it, too, I was kinda thinking there's a cool version of this story too, where it's like vigilante Julia that they could do, if there was ever make-- in my head I was like, this is how I would pitch it, like, "Julia's this amazing badass who's taking out problematic people. And the spin on it would be that she's not actually doing it for Frank, she's doin' it for herself, and humanity." And so, I kinda love her for those little moments in this movie because you're kind of like, "Yeah, murder's bad," but at the same time it's like, "Is anyone gonna miss this rapist?" You know what I mean?

**Brennan:** It could be a crossover with *Teeth*

**Nay:** *Mmmm.* *Nice*

**Michael:** *Yeah.* Oh, maybe that's where Dawn is going at the end, she's going to Julia's hair salon…

**Mark:** So Dawn and Julia are gonna team up *Thelma & Louise* style to go...

**Nay:** *Yesss*

**Michael:** Julia works at a hair salon, she goes there, she says, "Give me the Chucky," and she gets the Chucky…

**Mark:** There you go

**Michael:** Hmmmm

**Brennan:** Is this our flashback episode?

**Michael:** We're just combining as many of our episodes as we can

**Mark:** It's a grab bag!

**Michael:** Speaking of the score from earlier, I wish I would've, I meant to tell you to grab this-- I love, (whispers) "Julia Julia Julia Julia…" (normal voice) Did you notice that? Like have you noticed that? I watched it with headphones on

**Mark:** Oh see, I did not

**Michael:** And every time Julia goes near that attic, you hear, (whispers) "Julia Julia Julia Julia…"

**Mark:** Ohhh!

**Michael:** And it sounds like it's accompanied by the music, so I took it as actually part of the score…

**Mark:** I didn't-- I never heard that

**Michael:** Granted, she's hearing it too. It is *so* amazing, and it happens every single time she goes in the attic, and as the movie progresses, it happens every single time she brings a guy home…

**Mark:** Wow, okay

**Michael:** It's almost like, I took it as the first few times, it's *her* hearing this. And then after Frank reemerges, after his body's starting to be reformed, I take it as she's hearing this from Frank, and by the end of the movie I feel like she's hearing it from either Pinhead or the Cenobites or hell. So it's a really cool progression that obviously, I don't think you clearly don't *hear*, unless you have headphones in and you're blaring the movie, so it's really subtle, so check it out next time you're watching it

**Nay:** I watch everything with captions on, so I didn't hear it

**Mark:** Yeah

**Nay:** But I read it

**Michael:** It did play on-- oh, great!

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** Did you have any thoughts on that or were you just kind of-- I really enjoyed it 'coz A) it's just a cool *thing*…

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** But, it progresses with the movie when you *hear* it

**Nay:** Yeah, I don't think I've ever-- yeah, I definitely didn't notice that

**Mark:** I wanna talk about the Cenobites a little bit, because they're *clearly* based on, in terms of the way they're designed by Clive Barker, and BDSM looks that we see in the works of Mapplethorpe and Wigler

**Brennan:** (laughs) Sorry. Never heard that name before

**Mark:** Jim Wigler? Yeah, he's a great photographer. Clearly coded as a queer menace that can disrupt the family structure, and y'know, for anyone who has any kind of feeling about the kink community, Pinhead says, "Angels to some, demons to others." And while I think overall story wise there's a kind of Buddhist approach to *what* brings the suffering, what do you guys think? *Beyond* Barker's well-publicized interest in the fetish community, what do you guys think is behind the choice to lean into the sort of Tom of Finland gone berserk look of the Cenobites? *Why* that specifically?

**Michael:** Is that in the novella? Is it described…

**Mark:** Yeah, it's described pretty graphically how they're fitted, the leather, they're pierced and I remember he told his costume designer "repulsive glamour" was what they needed to go for

**Michael:** So great

**Mark:** Yeah, the fact that skin and leather was actually going to be interwoven, that they were one and the same with what they wore. "You are what you wear," as it were. And, I dunno, I just wanted to know what you guys thought about what was behind that specific look that up until that point had been popularized by Freddy Mercury to a certain degree and became the sort of look of the "threatening" homosexual, kind of, you know? Especially in the age of AIDS, especially?

**Michael:** I'm laughing but I am

**Mark:** Is it Clive Barker just literally flipping the bird to a straight audience, saying, "Yeah, we scare you? Great."

**Nay:** I hope so

**Mark:** Or is it something else?

**Michael:** I mean, yeah, right?

**Nay:** Yeah. I mean it *is* super scary to people, so

**Mark:** Well, they're very unsettling

**Nay:** Yeah

**Mark:** They're *so* unsettling to look at

**Michael:** They are. But it's also like, again, to me, it's like a cross. It's like scary and erotic at the same time

**Nay:** Huh

**Mark:** Completely

**Michael:** And those two things do go hand in hand, y'know? It also may just be what Clive's into, y'know? People put their own kink into everything…

**Brennan:** They really do

**Michael:** You know? Stuff I write and do, I put stuff that I'm really into it and it's like..

**Brennan:** I was gonna say

**Nay:** I was gonna ask, "So what would be in your Hellraiser?"

**Michael:** Oh, *girl*

**Mark:** Is that why someone sits in a cake in every script you write?

**Michael:** "Is that why someone's always in a jockstrap?" Um, so there you go, jockstraps. Yeah

**Mark:** I love-- I mean, Clive Barker hates the name "Pinhead", he always wanted to call him "Hell Priest" in subsequent…

**Michael:** Oh, I *love* that, too!

**Mark:** In *Scarlet Gospels*, I think he returned to calling him Hell Priest, but I *love*, love love Pinhead, y'know, especially in the Eighties because he was such a departure from movie villains, he was so articulate and so refined. And there's such an economy of movement…

**Michael:** And like, *calm*

**Mark:** There's such an economy of movement and grace, that's sort of neutral. He doesn't go around chopping people up, he's *summoned,* you know? It was like a throwback to Bela Lugosi in *Dracula* (1931) in the sense that there's a kind of romantic grace and panache to Pinhead and his entourage. Well, I mean at least the female, I dunno about Chatterbox and Butterball, but like their actual names…

**Nay:** I mean, they got some swag! You know what I mean?

**Mark:** *Listen*, they got some sartorial choices going on, and I salute it. But sometimes I think the queerest thing about *Hellraiser* is the fact that Pinhead communicates in ways that transcend the punchline, and he's a monster, for at least over the course of the first two movies, he actually *feels*. Hellbound has problems in terms of story, in terms of, you know, *Hellraiser II* is all over the place, but it also goes for broke in ways that are just *so, so* repugnant and so upsetting and so terrifying. But also, so much of it has to do with the fact that all the Cenobites used to be human, and at least in the end of the film it is about Pinhead having to reckon with the fact that he was not always this *thing* that was seeking pleasure and became like this, you know, merchant of pain, but rather a person who just wanted to numb pain, or find any way to escape drudgery. And I dunno, I just feel that's what I find fascinating about *Hellraiser* is that it's *so* sympathetic to its monsters in terms of the first two movies, anyway. *Hellraiser Part III* is *fun*...

**Michael:** *Hellraiser III* is something

**Mark:** It's something else. But in terms of honoring what Clive Barker wants to do with monsters? It's trash, in my opinion. I dunno, come at me? I dunno…

**Michael:** Well, there's a way to look at Hell Priest, because I'm actually digging that so much more than Pinhead…

**Nay:** Oh my God, *so* into that

**Michael:** There's a way to look at the character as the most noble character in the film in a lot of ways. Cool, calm, collected, A). B) There's no bullshit

**Mark:** No!

**Michael:** What you see is what you get. What he tells you is the truth. He's, you know, like you said, he's like, "*You* brought me here, so now this is what's gonna happen," you know what I mean? For lack of a better term, he's the only *honest* character at the end of the day in the film, 'coz all the adult humans are shitty in one form or another at one time or another, including Kirsty

**Mark:** Maybe that's why Frank initially in the novella gets like, "Okay, do you *wanna* come or no? Was this a mistake? Did you change your mind?" But by the time Kirsty rings 'em, they show up, they're in an attic…

**Nay:** "We already know…"

**Mark:** They're like, "Ugh, for fuck's sake, *you people* again. All right."

**Michael:** He even offers Kirsty a deal, he doesn't have to do that

**Mark:** Kirsty *is* the one to offer the deal.

**Michael:** And he accepts it

**Mark:** She's the one who barters it, and that's when Kirsty actually becomes interesting to me. Up until that point she's like, (high-pitched girly voice) "Oh my God!"

**Michael:** She's like in a shampoo commercial up until this point?

**Mark:** Yeah, I mean, God bless Ashley Laurence, but you know, Kirsty is not…

**Michael:** Yeah!

**Mark:** Terribly fascinating

**Michael:** She's not fully-- I love this movie, but she's not very, she's a footstool up until that point

**Mark:** Exactly. *Until* she summons these, you know, sadomasochists from beyond the grave, which, you know, I think that was Clive Barker's original title for the movie

**Michael:** Oh my God!

**Nay:** Oh yeah, I bet-- that's so, yeah

**Michael:** Can we go back and make all this a thing?

**Mark:** But you know, when she willingly offers up a trade…

**Michael:** Uncle Frank?

**Mark:** I mean, that's, I was like, "Okay, wow. Kirsty's got a lot more going on." And she certainly has a lot more going on in *Hellraiser II*, where, look. the movie's a mess. It starts off, (as Kirsty) "I have to save my Daddy from hell!" (normal voice) And by the end she's just like, (as Kirsty) "My Dad, I forgot! Oh, well!" (normal voice) It's sort of, y'know, anywho

**Nay:** I have a question for people with dads. Did y'all call him, "Daddy"?

**Michael:** No

**Nay:** Ever? And then at what age did you stop? I'm not judging, I'm just curious.

**Michael:** Zero. Age zero

**Mark:** Nope

**Nay:** Okay

**Brennan:** No

**Nay:** Just wondering

**Brennan:** But it's important to remember that…

**Michael:** No Daddy-shaming

**Nay:** Damn, y'all got Dads? The fuck? Have *had* dads?

**Michael:** Mine's dead (laughs)

**Brennan:** It's important to remember that we were all raised *male*, and like gendered male, and that's kind of a different thing

**Nay:** Oh, I guess that's true

**Brennan:** I feel like there's *daughter* idea, which is where that word tends to come from more…

**Nay:** That makes sense

**Brennan:** In my personal experience

**Mark:** Yeah

**Michael:** But Frank's not her dad, either

**Nay:** Right

**Michael:** It's like, "That's her uncle." Does she call her dad "Daddy"? I didn't notice that

**Nay:** Yeah

**Mark:** Yeah, she does

**Michael:** Oh, 'coz I'm still stuck on Frank saying, "Come to Daddy," to everyone

**Nay:** \*You\* are stuck on Frank

**Michael:** \*Mmm-hmm\* You get to see some of Frank's "D"!

**Nay:** (laughing) Okay

**Mark:** Listen, Frank is freaky…

**Nay:** Frank's a freak fo' sho'

**Mark:** And yeah, super-freaky

**Michael:** Putting out a cigarette on my chest

**Nay:** Who freakier than Frank?

**Mark and Nay:** Nobody

**Michael:** He puts out a Virginia Slim out on me and I'm like, "That's vanilla."

**Nay:** That's vanilla, to Frank

**Michael:** For Frank

**Mark:** That's a Tuesday, for Frank

**Nay:** He's like...

**Mark:** Frank's like, "Yawn."

**Michael:** He's like, "I literally thought you were an ashtray."

**Nay:** Yeah. Hot

**Mark:** I mean, I do find it fascinating that Frank and Larry, who's called "Rory" in the novella, but Rory I think is not such a good name to yell out a lot

**Michael:** Larry's such a…

**Nay:** Uch, fuckin' hate Larry

**Michael:** Yeah. If I was Julia, I'd be getting Larry's brother's "D" too

**Mark:** Poor Larry

**Michael:** So boring

**Mark:** Larry can't catch a break. I think Larry is the only innocent victim in the *Hellraiser* story, like this poor sap. Oh my God. He can really pick 'em, oh my God, Julia

**Nay:** You know, this is the thing why if it was my movie, there wouldn't be a movie because the \*moment\* I saw my husband walking around with a dripping, bloody hand, "Why are-- you just lettin' that drip everywhere? Get the fuck outta my house! You move me into this pig pen with maggots and all this other shit, and now you think you can just walk around with your limbs bleeding, what the fuck is wrong with you?"

**Mark:** Can we just talk about the very first thing when they arrive, the \*contempt\* that Julia is dripping with, and he's like, "Please, let's just give it a chance."

**Michael:** Sourpuss face

**Mark:** And she's like, "All right."

**Nay:** Oooh, that's mean

**Mark:** And she puts out a cigarette \*on the ground\*

**Nay:** Might as well!

**Mark:** But like *on the floor*. *Imagine*, imagine doing that to somebody

**Nay:** Yo

**Michael:** I kind of love that she's like, (deep voice) "You brought me to this fuckin' house."

**Nay:** For real, that is…

**Michael:** He's like, (chipper) "It's gonna be great!"

**Mark:** Awww

**Nay:** No, ooof. *I* love being mean when my expectations aren't met, and everybody knows it, okay? So, oooh, I would love to put a cigarette out on nasty-ass fucking floor

**(Brennan plays a clip from the movie)**

**Mover:** Is that your daughter?

**Larry:** Uh-huh

**Mover:** She's got her mother's looks

**Larry:** Her mother's dead

**Mover:** Oh

**Michael:** Like okay, I'm with Larry there. I love that he's just like, "Mom's dead, dick." I love the other guy just being like, "Oh."

**Nay:** "Oh."

**Mark:** (as the mover) "Perhaps I should move in this furniture faster."

**Michael:** (as the mover) "Maybe I'll stop drinking this beer and continue moving your furniture."

**Mark:** Did you guys know that the role of Hell Priest, Pinhead, whatever, I feel like we're pretentious if we call him "Hell Priest", but whatever

**Michael:** No, we're cool

**Nay:** Yeah

**Mark:** Doug Bradley and the guy who played that mover were competing over who gets to play the part of the mover

**Nay:** Wild

**Michael:** Oh my God! Did the mover wanna play the mover?

**Mark:** Uh, yes. And Doug Bradley also wanted to play the mover \*because\* they were both acting, they were both early on in their careers and they were like, "Ugh, I don't wanna play this fucking guy with nails in his head. I wanna have a reel. I have to have my face visible so I'm cast-able."

**Michael:** He gives a great performance

**Mark:** It's a...

**Michael:** It's hard to do

**Mark:** I think it's wonderful. I think it's a wonderful performance

**Nay:** Yeah

**Mark:** He's chilling and terrifying, but also of course it made his career, and you know…

**Michael:** I sort of love that Hell Priest is a little androgynous, too, y'know?

**Mark:** Oh, completely

**Michael:** And I love that there's little vaginas all over. Did anyone else notice that?

**Nay:** No, I did not

**Michael:** Like on the Cenobites, they all have a vagina, they all have what looks like a vagina somewhere on their body

**Mark:** Well, you know, the female (Cenobite) has a vagina neck, essentially

**Michael:** I believe Pin-- Hell Priest has one in his torso

**Mark:** Mmm-hmm

**Michael:** And then I started spotting them on *all* the Cenobites and I had never noticed that before

**Nay:** That's a good point

**Mark:** I know, it's like a *Where's Waldo?* of vaginas in Hellraiser

**Michael:** Yeah, and it's just so…

**Nay:** That's so fun

**Mark:** Once you see them

**Michael:** It's just so fun, and it's like, once again, Clive Barker as a queer person himself, it just adds to the queerness of the movie to me

**Nay:** Could you imagine getting your neck fucked?

**Michael:** (sighs orgasmically)

**Nay:** (exasperated) Okay, Michael… (as Michael) "Ahhhhhh!" (normal voice) I mean, imagine. Maybe you have.

**Mark:** Can you imagine?

**Michael:** I feel like, remove my neck

**Mark:** If you remade me, I guess I could

**Michael:** Is it on the side, is it up here?

**Mark:** *The Scarlet Gospels* I have not read, but I really want to read, from a couple years ago, where it was (Clive Barker's) continuation of the story of Hell Priest

**Nay:** *Wow*

**Michael:** Oh, okay

**Mark:** Which is that all the magicians in the world, there's very few left, are being murdered one by one *by* Hell Priest because he wants to collect their magic for himself…

**Brennan:** Lance Burton, Criss Angel…

**Michael:** *Mindfreak!*

**Mark:** David Copperfield… because Hell Priest wants to get together all their magic so that he can take on Lucifer in hell

**Nay:** Oh, damn, Hell Priest

**Michael:** That's so cool

**Mark:** And change the landscape of hell, and so basically, one of the surviving magician-- I'm probably fucking up this synopsis, but I'm very excited to read it because I just haven't…

**Michael:** You're doing such a good job, though. Anyway. I feel like this has happened before

**Mark:** Anyway, long story short, Hell Priest-- but again, it goes back to the idea of Hell Priest having a purpose for humanity, and by Part III, that was just sort of abandoned, and by (*Hellraiser) Part VIII*, he was like, "I just like slappin' bitches…"

**Nay:** Oh, Lord

**Michael:** And Part III is essentially as close to like a teeny slasher as you can get in a lot of ways

**Mark:** And it's fun

**Michael:** It's fun!

**Mark:** It's got a lot of fun stuff in it

**Michael:** It's got a guy with his boxer briefs up to his nipples, it's great

**Mark:** Oh, my God. JP Monroe? JP Monroe, club impresario?

**Michael:** I'm so here for this

**Mark:** Oh my God

**Michael:** And he gave himself a yeast infection

**Nay:** (annoyed) Okay…

**Mark:** Anywho…

**Nay:** (sotto voce) I swear to God…

**Michael:** But in (*Hellraiser)* Part Two, I love the fact that they initially wanted him to be Hell Priest, because there's a lot of religious imagery all over, and just nuns walking by and little statues and stuff, so that's really cool to know, 'cause that's totally on purpose. That's connected to what (Clive Barker) originally wanted to call Pinhead

**Mark:** No, absolutely. As a high priest of hell

**Michael:** And speaking of the nuns, can someone explain to me, because every time I've watched this I've kind of had, soon after seeing the nuns I've had, not confusion but not fully understanding A.) Why (Kirsty) passes out in that moment, and B.) Why she ends up in a psych ward type hospital. Every time I watch, I'm like, "What the fuck is this hospital?"

**Mark:** Well, she's basically unharmed but covered in blood…

**Michael:** True. Okay...

**Mark:** So, it's kind of a stretch that she'd end up in a psych ward and not just in a drunk tank? Or something?

**Michael:** I don't know if it's just how they treat her, or like, yeah, the ER to check to see if the blood is coming from her own body

**Nay:** Right

**Mark:** Listen, okay. *Hellraiser* has some moments where you ask questions like that and my response would be, "Shhhh. (whispers) You're gonna miss this next part that's really great!"

**Michael:** Yeah, I just-- this time watching it I was like, "What's with this hospital?"

**Mark:** Yeah, no, listen. Even Clive Barker, he's like, "Mostly I'm not embarrassed by the movie," but he's very critical of his own work, and…

**Michael:** But I kind of buy it, because then it kind of allows for her to have her wall open up and there be a pathway to hell without her being interrupted because they're like, "Eh, we're just gonna leave you over here in this corner."

**Mark:** Yeah, listen. She had to be alone in order to have that moment, okay?

**Nay:** Yeah, right right

**Michael:** "Stop following me, Dad. Daddy."

**Nay:** "Daddy." Ooooh

**Mark:** It also leads to that immortal moment of when she bargains for her own soul and (Hell Priest's) like, "If you show up, *maybe*, *maybe."* I love it. And then, "We'll tear your soul apart. (deep voice) We'll tear your hole apart!" Anyway

**Michael:** I love that whole thing

**Nay:** "Your hole apart"? *Wow*

**Mark:** Yeah, I mean, you know that's what they mean

**Nay:** And that's fine.

**Nay:** Hell Priest is like the delicious dom top I want to be when I grow up. You're like honest, frightening, it's perfect

**Mark:** Calm

**Nay:** Calm

**Mark:** There's no...

**Nay:** You float...

**Michael:** Sexy…

**Nay:** You float, you don't walk. Yeah. That sounds good

**Michael:** Mrs. Danvers's brother

**Nay:** Oh, okay. Same outfit, just about

**Michael:** He even holds his hands like her

**Nay:** Mmm-hmm!

**Mark:** That's true

**Nay:** I want that shared universe

**Mark:** I think, I agree. I do think Mrs. Danvers and Hell Priest share one parent, clearly. They're like step-siblings

**Nay:** Ooooh, I live, I live!

**Michael:** Or they're lovers separated by decades and generations

**Mark:** And wardrobe?

**Mark:** What I love about *Hellraiser* is that like we talked about before, if we're asserting, if Barker's asserting that the need for pleasure or validation leads to suffering, you know, when you watch people playing with the box, the Lament Configuration, the way they touch it and caress it…

**Michael:** The way little sperms fly off of it, did you notice that?

**Mark:** Well, once you know… I couldn't stop thinking about iPhones. I could not stop thinking about phones, and there was a part of me watching Hellraiser this time around where I was like, "God! This movie's visionary and prescient in \*so\* many ways." But at the same time there was like, "I can't think of an inanimate object I fondle on a day-to-day basis more than my fucking phone that I fucking hate." And, it always-- every time I go to the phone, it is in some way shape or form, many times, for validation or mindless pleasure, and a lot of the time it leads to fucking suffering. Or…

**Michael:** (fey voice) Twitter?

**Nay:** Right

**Mark:** Yeah, Twitter for one

**Nay:** That's a cursed app

**Mark:** And I just was like, "Is the hellscape of social media in a way a kind of terrain of suffering-slash-pleasure?"

**Michael:** Absolutely

**Mark:** That we can't differentiate. Like there's no hooks, but I just couldn't stop thinking about it this past time

**Michael:** Well, it's interesting that you bring that up, because I mean it kinda is. There's plenty of people-- I mean, I know I've been there in the past, and I've actually had to take a long social media break in the past for like, my frickin' sanity. But just go on it, you can find one or two people every single day who are clearly doing it to themselves. They're deriving pleasure from it, but they're also being completely affected by all the negative aspects of social media, and it's clearly hurting them

**Mark:** Doubtlessly

**Michael:** And then they continue to go back

**Mark:** Yeah

**Michael:** You know?

**Mark:** Oh, I post something to Instagram, some little random doodad video or whatever, and some days I'll catch myself and I'll be like, "Why do I give a *fuck* if anybody fucking *likes* this? I'm forty years old!"

**Michael:** Your videos are always so funny though, and I love figuring them out

**Mark:** "What the fuck is wrong with me that I fucking give a shit? Go work, Mark! Go to work!"

**Michael:** Another ringtone

**Mark:** And it ends up creating an echo chamber of suffering as a result, because I just end up feeling stupid and embarrassed

**Michael:** Well, you go for the immediate pleasure and you end up getting the pain

**Mark:** Yes! So, I dunno. I think that we have…

**Michael:** Hmmm, *Hellraiser* film, cell phone…

**Mark:** The box, we all have the box

**Michael:** It's a box

**Nay:** Yeah

**Mark:** And you might be listening to this podcast via your own Lament Configuration box [EN: I sure am!]

**Michael:** Just don't stop, okay?

**Nay:** Yeah, right?

**Mark:** (faux chipper) Anyway, that's the show!

**Michael:** It's a bit nuts. It's very valid

**Mark:** I dunno

**Michael:** Nay?

**Nay:** I mean, every time I heard, "The box", I didn't think of a phone, but that's just me!

**Mark:** What did you think of?

**Nay:** Uh, pussy

**Mark:** Yeah

**Nay:** Yeah, okay (inaudible)

**Mark:** (deep voice) I wanna hear you say it!

**Michael:** But you actually derive posture pleasure from your phone

**Mark:** Yeah

**Nay:** (scoffs) Yeah

**Mark:** Art and commerce and...

**Nay:** That's my best friend, that's my best friend

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** But. There are definitely moments of suffering, you know?

**Mark:** But I think you work your Lament Configuration better than I do, clearly

**Michael:** You work it very well

**Nay:** I hear you. When you were talking I was thinking about how if a post doesn't do as well as something else, you're like, "Is it the algorithm? Did I not hashtag this? Was it like it's not a selfie, was it a group photo," or whatever the case maybe be, and it \*can\* feel like, "Bitch, who the fuck cares?"

**Mark:** And then Pinhead's standing over your shoulder going like…

**Nay:** "Scroll, scroll!"

**Michael:** "Post another one!"

**Mark:** (as Pinhead) "You misused your hashtags! You posted at the wrong time of day!!"

**Michael:** (as Pinhead) "Can we now go look at Dildo Nightmares?"

**Nay:** Exactly

**Mark:** Yes. (as Pinhead) "Maybe. *Maybe*."

**Michael:** (as Pinhead) "Maybe. Follow them, Nay?"

**Nay:** Yes, I do

**Michael:** Oh, I wanna do *Hellraiser* voice

**Mark:** (as Pinhead) "No likes, please."

**Brennan:** (as Pinhead) "Re-tweet if you agree."

**Mark:** "Like and subscribe!"

**Michael:** (as Pinhead) "Bummer! No one likes my pins."

**Brennan:** Oh, he totally has a Pinterest!

**Mark:** (as Pinhead) "You can find me on Pinterest!" (normal voice). No, but I mean, I really do…

**Michael:** He's looking at like, cute suits with no socks and stuff

**Mark:** If, as Barker describes hell, if Barker is presenting hell as a place where pleasure can be achieved if you're willing to go through an enormous amount of…

**Michael:** Pain

**Mark:** Amount of pain. That you can transcend pain into pleasure. Then I just go, "The internet. The internet."

**Michael:** Right.

**Mark:** It's just… I dunno

**Nay:** Yeah. Yeah.

**Michael:** You know what I mean? Is what Pinhead offering any worse than what people are already living? In a lot of ways? No.

**Mark:** Well, I mean, there's hooks

**Michael:** Yeah

**Nay:** Jesus wept

**Mark:** Jesus wept. Oh, man

**Michael:** So great

**Mark:** The original line Frank was going to say was, "Fuck off." And then I *think* Barker said the actor improvised it?

**Michael:** Oh!

**Nay:** "Jesus wept", that's what you're gonna say? Huh.

**Mark:** Andrew Lawrence improvised it and it's one of the most legendary moments in the movie. I mean, it's just-- I'll never forget the first time I saw it, I was like, "Oh. Okay, I don't even know."

**Michael:** Can we talk about all the different people that played Frank essentially? Because you have the guy that played Larry played Frank, and then you had Sean Chapman who played Frank, and then you had skinless Frank, who was played by another actor…

**Mark:** Oliver something

**Michael:** And I believe there was a fourth, a voice possibly, like a third or fourth, so essentially three people. Whose voice did they use?

**Mark:** Good question

**Michael:** 'Coz the original Frank was clearly dubbed…

**Nay:** Yeah

**Mark:** Yeah. He was. They kept Julia British because you know, evil stepmother, you know

**Michael:** But Steve was dubbed, too, Kirsty's boyfriend

**Mark:** Is that his name? I was calling him "Chip".

**Michael:** But at the end, it felt like the guy, Larry, what's that actor's name?

**Mark:** Andrew Lawrence, I believe. Maybe I'm having a brain fart

**Michael:** Yes, that was playing Frank at the end, that sounded like-- I'm just curious because it's interesting that three different actors essentially played one character

**Mark:** Andrew Robinson! It's Ashley Laurence, Andrew Robinson, my bad

**Michael:** There's one voice throughout the movie

**Mark:** Right

**Michael:** I just thought it was an interesting question to ask

**Mark:** I mean…

**Michael:** But the first time watching it, and Sean Chapman's version of Frank started speaking, I had to rewind it like five or six times. I'm like, "Is there something wrong with my audio sync going on right now?"

**Mark:** I think you can look at the different versions of Frank, versions and the different numbers of actors or voices or personas that Frank takes on throughout the film in the first and second one is that, you know, Barker is interested in our shadow selves and sort of you know, the sort of face we present to the world, like for Julia the face she presents to her husband and the face she presents to her stepdaughter is vastly different than the one she hides and shows to Frank, and the one she hides and shows to the sort of blood bags that she picks up at the airport.

**Nay:** Blood bags. Okay?

**Mark:** I always think of it as an airport bar.

**Nay:** Where she hammers 'em

**Mark:** She hammers 'em!

**Michael:** Back in the Eighties when people would *literally* go hang out at the airport bar?

**Mark:** That's true. They would, wouldn't they?

**Nay:** *Yeah*

**Michael:** "Honey, wanna go grab a drink at the airport bar?"

**Mark:** Sex at the HoJo?

**Michael:** "Maybe we can watch the American Airlines flights take off while we sip a martini."

**Mark:** Ahh, foreplay

**Nay:** Back when you could go to the gate without a ticket?

**Michael:** Back when I was in high school, I used to get high and go to the observation deck at the airport and just watch planes take off and be like, "Uh!" for hours with my friends

**Nay:** That sounds bomb

**Michael:** Isn't that amazing? And then something happened when I got into college and I could *not* handle weed at all, like I would just freak the fuck out

**Mark:** Yeah, I think...

**Nay:** Sounds like the wrong strain, but that's okay

**Michael:** No, that stayed with me until I got sober, so anyway.

**Mark:** Understandable

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** High plane watching

**Mark:** I dunno guys, I love this movie so much. It's dirty, it pushes *all* of my nuclear family run amok buttons...

**Michael:** Absolutely

**Mark:** And when I was a little kid, it just made me feel sexy and dirty and frightened and...

**Michael:** It makes blood look *so* hot

**Nay:** Yeah

**Michael:** I love the dripping blood, and the blood that (Frank) runs on (Julia's) face is just so sexy, and like the blood in the IV bag, how it shoots up (groans orgasmically) Gimme it

**Mark:** To use that much blood in a mainstream film, in 1987, especially as a gay auteur at that time is a statement

**Nay:** Hell yeah

**Michael:** Absolutely

**Mark:** That is a *statement*

**Michael:** "I'm gonna take one of the things you're fucking *terrified* of and just confront you with it for ninety minutes. Make you confront it."

**Mark:** Listeners who listened to our episode on *Fright Night* certainly got a real rundown of a lot of AIDS-related stats from 1985, and by 1987, not a whole lot had fucking changed in terms of how the culture approached AIDS and HIV…

**Michael:** I love how one person can make you change the way you look at a movie. 'Cause until Bryan came in, I'd thought about it, but never that much, like what you're talking about right now

**Mark:** Bryan was disappointed-- and you know, it's interesting to bring up in the context of *Hellraiser* too, in terms of the constant use of blood and the constant use of the way, if you know about the Lament Configuration box, if you know about this version of hell, it's *like* a contamination, it is like a disease, you can't let it go. Once Julia knows, she can't un-know it, and suddenly she's spreading this sort of death and destruction around herself, but Bryan, the day after we recorded the pod, he was like, "Ahhh! I'm so mad!" I was like, "Why?" And he was like, "I wanted to talk about bugchasing…"

**Michael:** That's what he said?

**Mark:** "Bugchasing in *Fright Night*." And it's interesting to think about it in terms of Hellraiser as well, you know-- Frank is, the people who find the box, they seek it out, because they think they've gone to the limits, they think they've experienced everything there is to experience, and all they feel now is numbness or a kind of, sort of anomie for day-to-day life. They want to go to the far reaches of exploratory sadomasochism. And it's interesting to look at that, especially in the context of conservative America at the time certainly looked at AIDS as something you sought out, and you "deserved it". You got it, "because you sought it out, because you went and did those sex things."

**Michael:** When you got it, a lot of people in the time thought you got it because God's giving it to you because of what you chose then

**Mark:** Right

**Michael:** Like you didn't even seek it out, you were given it because you deserve to be handed it, y'know

**Mark:** Right. So it's interesting the way *Hellraiser*, and to a degree, *Fright Night*, turns those ideas on their head a little bit

**Michael:** And they came out the same year, '87

**Mark:** Uhhh, *Fright Night* was '85

**Michael:** Was it '85?

**Mark:** Yes

**Michael:** I'm thinking of *Nightmare 3*

**Mark:** Oh, *Nightmare 3*. So good

**Michael:** I know, it's so great

**Mark:** Is it just me, or does Julia's hair get bigger with every murder she commits?

**Michael:** Absolutely

**Nay:** Oh, yeah. I'm like, "Is the blood feeding you, too?"

**Mark:** Goddammit, it's a perfect movie

**Michael:** He drinks the blood and she eats the hair. It just like, grows

**Mark:** Teasing it out. Bigger, higher and higher!

**Michael:** Girl loves her White Rain

**Nay:** Yeah, I mean, she feeling herself by the second kill, she's like, "Imma put on this beautiful white blouse…"

**Mark:** (sings) "Finally!"

**Nay:** (joins in) "It has happened to me, right in front of my face and I just cannot hide it!"

**Michael:** (sings) "Ooooohhhh!"

**Mark and Nay:** (sings) "Finally! You came along, the way you…"

**Nay:** I don't know the words

**Mark:** (sings) "If you only knew the men I just killed for you…" (normal voice) Anyway

**Michael:** (sings) "For dick!"

**Michael:** *Cherry Falls* is a great movie, I just bought that on Blu-ray

**Brennan:** Oh yeah, it was a blast

**Michael:** I also got *Valentine* on Blu-ray, too. I said, "Fuck it."

**Brennan:** To David Boreanaz?

**Michael:** He is a terrible actor anyway

**Brennan:** "I asked him to have shoulders, not to act!"

**Mark:** Social media as I stated before is a hellscape of pain and suffering, so I'm suddenly rethinking my entire approach

**Michael:** So yeah, give Mark's Instagram account a look..

**Mark:** Or don't! I dunno! Don't feed my late-blooming addiction

**Nay:** Feed mine! Yeah, you can feed mine, that's fine

**Brennan:** Oh yeah, Nay is an Instagram genius

**Nay:** *Oh!*

**Michael:** You really are

**Mark:** She's really good

**Nay:** That's so sweet

**Michael:** I don't have an Instagram account but I will literally "w-w-w-dot…"

**Nay:** On desktop? To watch my Instagram stories?

**Michael:** "Why won't it scroll? Why won't it scroll?"

**Mark:** (as Hell Priest) "We'll tear your hole apart!"

**Michael:** (as Hell Priest) "Tear your hole apart! Jesus wept."

**Nay:** If you agree

**Mark:** If you consent

**Nay:** Yeah

**Mark:** If you consent

**Michael:** Consensual tearing apart only

**Mark:** See, that's why I love the Cenobites in the book, 'coz they were like...

**Nay:** Ceno-byeeeeee!!

## **Previous Episode**

Episode 24: “DILFs Next Door” (w/ Bryan Fuller!)