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325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | happened at lunch with a with a well known philosopher and he didn't believe in free | 2:51:46.080 | 2:51:49.920 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | will and the other waitress came around and he was like, Well, let me see. I was like, | 2:51:49.920 | 2:51:53.600 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | What are you doing here? You're gonna choose a sandwich, right? So it's I think it's one | 2:51:53.600 | 2:51:58.200 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | of those things. I think you can know that, you know, you're not going to live forever. | 2:51:58.200 | 2:52:02.100 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | But you can't you can't. It's not practical to live that way unless you know, so you buy | 2:52:02.100 | 2:52:07.100 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | insurance and then you do some stuff like that. But but but mostly, you know, I think | 2:52:07.100 | 2:52:11.920 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | you just you just live as if as if as if you can make plans. | 2:52:11.920 | 2:52:17.440 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | We talked about all kinds of life. We talked about all kinds of embodied minds. What do | 2:52:17.440 | 2:52:22.520 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | you think is the meaning of it all? What's the meaning of all the biological lives we've | 2:52:22.520 | 2:52:28.000 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | been talking about here on Earth? Why are we here? | 2:52:28.000 | 2:52:33.280 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | I don't know that that's a that that's a well posed question other than the existential | 2:52:33.280 | 2:52:38.920 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | question you post before. | 2:52:38.920 | 2:52:40.900 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Is that question hanging out with the question of what is consciousness and there at retreat | 2:52:40.900 | 2:52:47.000 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | somewhere? Not sure because sipping pina coladas and because they're ambiguously defined. | 2:52:47.000 | 2:52:55.280 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Maybe I'm not sure that any of these things really ride on the correctness of our scientific | 2:52:55.280 | 2:53:01.660 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | understanding. But I mean, just just for an example, right? I've always found I've always | 2:53:01.660 | 2:53:06.740 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | found it weird that people get really worked up to find out realities about their their | 2:53:06.740 | 2:53:16.760 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | bodies, for example. Right. You've seen them. Ex Machina. Right. And so there's this great | 2:53:16.760 | 2:53:22.820 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | scene where he's cutting his hand to find out, you know, a piece full of cock. Now, | 2:53:22.820 | 2:53:26.120 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | to me, right? If if I open up and I find out and I find a bunch of cogs, my conclusion | 2:53:26.120 | 2:53:31.880 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | is not, oh, crap, I must not have true cognition. That sucks. My conclusion is, wow, cogs can | 2:53:31.880 | 2:53:37.360 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | have true cognition. Great. So right. So. So it seems to me, I guess I guess I'm with | 2:53:37.360 | 2:53:42.840 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Descartes on this one, that whatever whatever the truth ends up being of of of how is what | 2:53:42.840 | 2:53:48.240 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | is consciousness, how it can be conscious? None of that is going to alter my primary | 2:53:48.240 | 2:53:53.080 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | experience, which is this is what it is. And if and if a bunch of molecular networks can | 2:53:53.080 | 2:53:56.600 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | do it, fantastic. If it turns out that there's a there's a non corporeal, you know, so great. | 2:53:56.600 | 2:54:03.300 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | We can we'll study that, whatever. But but the fundamental existential aspect of it is, | 2:54:03.300 | 2:54:09.200 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | you know, if somebody if somebody told me today that, yeah, yeah, you were created yesterday | 2:54:09.200 | 2:54:13.400 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | and all your memories are, you know, sort of fake, you know, kind of like like like Boltzmann | 2:54:13.400 | 2:54:18.280 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | brains, right. And the human, you know, human skepticism, all that. Yeah. OK. Well, so so | 2:54:18.280 | 2:54:23.280 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | but but here I am now. So so it's the experience. It's primal, so like that's the that's the | 2:54:23.280 | 2:54:31.280 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | thing that matters. So the the backstory doesn't matter. I think so. I think so. From a first | 2:54:31.280 | 2:54:36.300 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | person perspective, now from a third person, like scientifically, it's all very interesting. | 2:54:36.300 | 2:54:39.600 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | From a third person perspective, I could say, wow, that's that's amazing that that this | 2:54:39.600 | 2:54:43.760 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | happens and how does it happen and whatever. But from a first person perspective, I could | 2:54:43.760 | 2:54:48.000 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | care less. Like I just it's just what I've what I learned from any of these scientific | 2:54:48.000 | 2:54:52.020 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | facts is, OK, well, I guess then that's that that then I guess that's what is sufficient | 2:54:52.020 | 2:54:57.160 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | to to give me my, you know, amazing first person perspective. I think if you dig deeper | 2:54:57.160 | 2:55:01.820 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | and deeper and get a get surprising answers to why the hell we're here, it might give | 2:55:01.820 | 2:55:10.100 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | you some guidance on how to live. Maybe, maybe. I don't know. That would be nice. On the one | 2:55:10.100 | 2:55:18.680 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | hand, you might be right, because on the one hand, if I don't know what else could possibly | 2:55:18.680 | 2:55:23.240 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | give you that guidance. Right. So so you would think that it would have to be that or you | 2:55:23.240 | 2:55:26.240 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | would do it would have to be science because there isn't anything else. So so that's so | 2:55:26.240 | 2:55:30.400 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | maybe on the other hand, I am really not sure how you go from any, you know, what they call | 2:55:30.400 | 2:55:36.680 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | from an is to an odd right from any factual description of what's going on. This goes | 2:55:36.680 | 2:55:41.120 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | back to the natural. Right. Just because somebody says, oh, man, that's that's completely not | 2:55:41.120 | 2:55:44.920 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | natural. It's never happened on Earth before. I'm not impressed by that whatsoever. I think | 2:55:44.920 | 2:55:50.000 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | I think whatever hazard hasn't happened, we are now in a position to do better if we can. | 2:55:50.000 | 2:55:56.280 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Right. Well, this also because you said there's science and there's nothing else. There it's | 2:55:56.280 | 2:56:03.680 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | it's really tricky to know how to intellectually deal with a thing that science doesn't currently | 2:56:03.680 | 2:56:12.000 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | understand. Right. So like, the thing is, if you believe that science solves everything, | 2:56:12.000 | 2:56:22.880 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | you can too easily in your mind think our current understanding, like, we've solved | 2:56:22.880 | 2:56:30.280 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | everything. Right. Right. Right. Like, it jumps really quickly to not science as a mechanism | 2:56:30.280 | 2:56:36.120 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | as a as a process, but more like science of today. Like, you could just look at human | 2:56:36.120 | 2:56:43.000 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | history and throughout human history, just physicists and everybody would claim we've | 2:56:43.000 | 2:56:48.640 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | solved everything. Sure. Sure. Like, like, there's a few small things to figure out. | 2:56:48.640 | 2:56:53.240 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | And we basically solved everything. Were in reality, I think asking, like, what is the | 2:56:53.240 | 2:56:58.480 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | meaning of life is resetting the palette of like, we might be tiny and confused and don't | 2:56:58.480 | 2:57:08.120 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | have anything figured out. It's almost going to be hilarious a few centuries from now when | 2:57:08.120 | 2:57:12.800 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | they look back how dumb we were. Yeah, I 100% agree. So when I say science and nothing else, | 2:57:12.800 | 2:57:21.480 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | I certainly don't mean the science of today because I think overall, I think we are we | 2:57:21.480 | 2:57:27.640 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | know very little. I think most of the things that we're sure of now are going to be, as | 2:57:27.640 | 2:57:32.400 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | you said, are going to look hilarious down the line. So I think we're just at the beginning | 2:57:32.400 | 2:57:36.280 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | of a lot of really important things. When I say nothing but science, I also include | 2:57:36.280 | 2:57:42.320 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | the kind of first person, what I call science that you do. So the interesting thing about | 2:57:42.320 | 2:57:48.000 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | I think about consciousness and studying consciousness and things like that in the first person is | 2:57:48.000 | 2:57:52.120 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | unlike doing science in the third person, where you as the scientist are minimally changed | 2:57:52.120 | 2:57:57.760 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | by it, maybe not at all. So when I do an experiment, I'm still me, there's the experiment, whatever | 2:57:57.760 | 2:58:01.360 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | I've done, I've learned something, so that's a small change. But but overall, that's it. | 2:58:01.360 | 2:58:04.900 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | In order to really study consciousness, you will you are part of the experiment, you will | 2:58:04.900 | 2:58:10.640 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | be altered by that experiment, right? Whatever, whatever it is that you're doing, whether | 2:58:10.640 | 2:58:13.920 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | it's some sort of contemplative practice or, or some sort of psychoactive, you know, whatever. | 2:58:13.920 | 2:58:22.120 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | You are now you are now your own experiment, and you are right. And so I consider I fold | 2:58:22.120 | 2:58:26.160 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | that in, I think that's that's part of it. I think that exploring our own mind and our | 2:58:26.160 | 2:58:29.960 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | own consciousness is very important. I think much of it is not captured by what currently | 2:58:29.960 | 2:58:34.680 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | is third person science for sure. But ultimately, I include all of that in science, with a capital | 2:58:34.680 | 2:58:41.520 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | S in terms of like a, a rational investigation of both first and third person aspects of | 2:58:41.520 | 2:58:48.800 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | our world. | 2:58:48.800 | 2:58:50.300 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | We are our own experiment, as beautifully put. And when when two systems get to interact | 2:58:50.300 | 2:58:57.960 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | with each other, that's the kind of experiment. So I'm deeply honored that you would do this | 2:58:57.960 | 2:59:03.780 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | experiment with me today. Thanks so much. I'm a huge fan of your work. Likewise, thank | 2:59:03.780 | 2:59:07.760 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | you for doing everything you're doing. I can't wait to see the kind of incredible things | 2:59:07.760 | 2:59:13.800 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | you build. So thank you for talking. Really appreciate being here. Thank you. | 2:59:13.800 | 2:59:18.200 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Thank you for listening to this conversation with Michael Levin. To support this podcast, | 2:59:18.200 | 2:59:22.200 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words from | 2:59:22.200 | 2:59:26.760 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Charles Darwin in The Origin of Species. From the war of nature, from famine and death, | 2:59:26.760 | 2:59:35.760 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | the most exalted object which we're capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the | 2:59:35.760 | 2:59:41.000 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | higher animals directly follows. There's grandeur in this view of life, with its several | 2:59:41.000 | 2:59:47.600 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | powers having been originally breathed into a few forms, or into one, and that whilst | 2:59:47.600 | 2:59:54.880 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed laws of gravity, from its most | 2:59:54.880 | 2:59:59.840 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | simpler beginning, endless forms, most beautiful and most wonderful, have been and are being | 2:59:59.840 | 3:00:06.880 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | you and the outside world, you don't really know where that is, right? Every every collection of | 30:02.160 | 30:05.680 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | cell has to figure that out from scratch. And the fact that evolution requires all of these things | 30:05.680 | 30:10.880 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | to figure out what they are, what effectors they have, what sensors they have, where does it make | 30:10.880 | 30:15.520 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | sense to draw a boundary between me and the outside world? The fact that you have to build all | 30:15.520 | 30:18.960 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | that from scratch, this autopoiesis is what defines the border of a self. Now, biology uses like a | 30:18.960 | 30:25.680 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | multi a multi scale competency architecture, meaning that every level has goals. So so | 30:26.320 | 30:31.760 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | molecular networks have goals, cells have goals, tissues, organs, colonies. And and it's the | 30:31.760 | 30:38.160 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | interplay of all of those that that enable biology to solve problems in new ways, for example, in | 30:38.160 | 30:43.280 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | xenobots and various other things. This is, you know, it's exactly as you said, in many ways, | 30:43.280 | 30:50.640 |