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325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | and so that's the thing to remember is that, you know, and we know this from from history is that | 39:08.640 | 39:13.760 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | is that just being a collective isn't enough. Because what the goals of that collective will | 39:13.760 | 39:19.520 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | be relative to the welfare of the individual parts is a massively open and justify the means | 39:19.520 | 39:24.560 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | I'm telling you, Stalin was onto something. No, that's the danger. But we can exactly that's the | 39:24.560 | 39:29.600 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | danger of for us humans, we have to construct ethical systems under which we don't take seriously | 39:29.600 | 39:39.040 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | the full mechanism of biology and apply it to the way the world functions, | 39:39.760 | 39:43.840 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | which is which is an interesting line we've drawn. The world that built us is the one we | 39:43.840 | 39:51.680 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | reject in some sense, when we construct human societies, the idea that this country was founded | 39:51.680 | 39:59.120 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | on that all men are created equal. That's such a fascinating idea. That's like, you're fighting | 39:59.120 | 40:05.440 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | evolved. Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time. | 3:00:06.880 | 3:00:25.480 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | against nature and saying, well, there's something bigger here than a hierarchical competency | 40:05.440 | 40:14.640 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | architecture. But there's so many interesting things you said. So from an algorithmic perspective, | 40:14.640 | 40:21.920 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | the act of bending the option space. That's really, that's really profound. Because if you | 40:21.920 | 40:29.840 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | look at the way AI systems are built today, there's a big system, like I said, with robots, | 40:29.840 | 40:36.800 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | and as a goal, and he gets better and better at optimizing that goal at accomplishing that goal. | 40:36.800 | 40:42.080 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | But if biology built a hierarchical system where everything is doing computation, | 40:42.080 | 40:48.560 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | and everything is accomplishing the goal, not only that, it's kind of dumb, | 40:49.360 | 40:54.640 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | you know, with the limited with a bent option space is just doing the thing that's the easiest | 40:56.400 | 41:03.360 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | thing for in some sense. And somehow that allows you to have turtles on top of turtles, | 41:03.360 | 41:10.960 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | literally dumb systems on top of dumb systems that as a whole create something incredibly smart. | 41:10.960 | 41:17.920 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Yeah, I mean, every system is has some degree of intelligence in its own problem domain. So, | 41:18.480 | 41:24.560 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | so cells will have problems they're trying to solve in physiological space and transcriptional | 41:25.200 | 41:30.400 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | space. And then I can give you some some cool examples of that. But the collective is trying | 41:30.400 | 41:34.240 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | to solve problems in anatomical space, right and forming a, you know, a creature and growing your | 41:34.240 | 41:38.800 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | blood vessels and so on. And then the collective the the the whole body is solving yet other | 41:38.800 | 41:44.480 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | problems, they may be in social space and linguistic space and three dimensional space. | 41:44.480 | 41:48.080 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | And who knows, you know, the group might be solving problems in, you know, I don't know, | 41:48.080 | 41:52.080 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | some sort of financial space or something. So one of the major differences with with most, | 41:52.080 | 41:57.840 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | with most AIs today is is a the kind of flatness of the architecture, but also of the fact that | 41:59.280 | 42:06.160 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | they're constructed from outside their their borders, and they're, you know, so a few. So, | 42:06.160 | 42:13.360 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | to a large extent, and of course, there are counter examples now, but but to a large extent, | 42:14.400 | 42:18.640 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | our technology has been such that you create a machine or a robot, it knows what its sensors are, | 42:18.640 | 42:23.760 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | it knows what its effectors are, it knows the boundary between it and the outside world, | 42:23.760 | 42:27.760 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | although this is given from the outside. Biology constructs this from scratch. Now the best example | 42:27.760 | 42:32.800 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | of this that that originally in robotics was actually Josh Bongard's work in 2006, where he | 42:32.800 | 42:38.880 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | made these, these robots that did not know their shape to start with. So like a baby, they sort of | 42:38.880 | 42:43.120 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | floundered around, they made some hypotheses, well, I did this, and I moved in this way. Well, | 42:43.120 | 42:47.040 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | maybe I'm a whatever, maybe I have wheels, or maybe I have six legs or whatever, right? And | 42:47.040 | 42:50.800 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | they would make a model and eventually will crawl around. So that's, I mean, that's really good. | 42:50.800 | 42:54.240 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | That's part of the autopoiesis, but we can go a step further. And some people are doing this. And | 42:54.240 | 42:58.160 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | then we're sort of working on some of this too, is this idea that let's even go back further, | 42:58.160 | 43:02.960 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | you don't even know what sensors you have, you don't know where you end in the outside world | 43:02.960 | 43:06.640 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | begins. All you have is is certain things like active inference, meaning you're trying to minimize | 43:06.640 | 43:11.200 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | surprise, right? You have some metabolic constraints, you don't have all the energy you | 43:11.200 | 43:14.880 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | need, you don't have all the time in the world to think about everything you want to think about. So | 43:14.880 | 43:18.640 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | that means that you can't afford to be a micro reductionist, you know, all this data coming in, | 43:18.640 | 43:23.280 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | you have to course grain it and say, I'm gonna take all this stuff, and I'm gonna call that a | 43:23.280 | 43:26.560 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | cat. I'm gonna take all this, I'm gonna call that the edge of the table I don't want to fall off of. | 43:26.560 | 43:30.560 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | And I don't want to know anything about the micro states, what I want to know is what is the optimal | 43:30.560 | 43:34.480 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | way to cut up my world. And by the way, this thing over here, that's me. And the reason that's me is | 43:34.480 | 43:38.560 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | because I have more control over this than I have over any of this other stuff. And so now you can | 43:38.560 | 43:42.640 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | begin to write. So that's self construction at that, that figuring out making models of the | 43:42.640 | 43:46.560 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | outside world, and then turning that inwards, and starting to make a model of yourself, right, which | 43:46.560 | 43:51.120 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | immediately starts to get into issues of agency and control. Because in order to if you are under | 43:51.120 | 43:58.560 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | metabolic constraints, meaning you don't have the energy, right, that all the energy in the world, | 43:58.560 | 44:02.240 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | you have to be efficient, that immediately forces you to start telling stories about coarse grained | 44:02.240 | 44:08.000 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | agents that do things, right, you don't have the energy to like Laplace's demon, you know, | 44:08.000 | 44:11.840 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | calculate every, every possible state that's going to happen, you have to you have to course grain, | 44:11.840 | 44:17.360 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | and you have to say, that is the kind of creature that does things, either things that I avoid, | 44:17.360 | 44:21.920 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | or things that I will go towards, that's a major food or whatever, whatever it's going to be. | 44:21.920 | 44:25.280 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | And so right at the base of simple, very simple organisms starting to make | 44:25.280 | 44:30.560 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | models of agents doing things, that is the origin of models of free will, basically, right, because | 44:31.920 | 44:39.040 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | you see the world around you as having agency. And then you turn that on yourself. And you say, | 44:39.040 | 44:42.880 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | wait, I have agency too, I can I do things, right. And and then you make decisions about what you're | 44:42.880 | 44:47.440 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | going to do. So all of this one one model is to view all of those kinds of things as | 44:47.440 | 44:52.640 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | being driven by that early need to determine what you are and to do so and to then take | 44:53.920 | 44:59.600 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | actions in the most energetically efficient space possible. Right. So free will emerges | 44:59.600 | 45:04.800 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | when you try to simplify, tell a nice narrative about your environment. I think that's very | 45:04.800 | 45:10.000 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | plausible. Yeah. You think free was an illusion. So you're kind of implying that it's a useful hack. | 45:10.000 | 45:18.080 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Well, I'll say two things. The first thing is, I think I think it's very plausible to say that | 45:19.360 | 45:23.680 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | any organism that self or any agent that self whether it's biological or not, any agent that | 45:24.320 | 45:30.560 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | self constructs under energy constraints, is going to believe in free will, we'll get to whether it | 45:30.560 | 45:36.960 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | has free will momentarily. But but I think but I think what what it definitely drives is a view of | 45:36.960 | 45:41.200 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | yourself and the outside world as an agential view, I think that's inescapable. So that's true | 45:41.200 | 45:45.360 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | for even primitive organisms? I think so. I think that's now now they don't have now obviously, | 45:45.360 | 45:50.480 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | you have to scale down, right. So so so so they don't have the kinds of complex metacognition | 45:50.480 | 45:55.360 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | that we have. So they can do long term planning and thinking about free will and so on and so on. | 45:55.360 | 45:59.520 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | But but the sense of agency is really useful to accomplish tasks simple or complicated. That's | 45:59.520 | 46:05.040 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | right. In all kinds of spaces, not just in obvious three dimensional space. I mean, we're very good | 46:05.040 | 46:09.680 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | that the thing is, humans are very good at detecting agency of like medium sized objects | 46:09.680 | 46:16.720 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | moving at medium speeds in the three dimensional world, right? We see a bowling ball and we see a | 46:16.720 | 46:20.560 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | mouse and we immediately know what the difference is, right? And how we're going to mostly things | 46:20.560 | 46:23.920 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | you can eat or get eaten by. Yeah, yeah. That's our that's our training set, right? From the time | 46:23.920 | 46:28.400 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | you're little, your training set is visual data on on this this like little chunk of your experience. | 46:28.400 | 46:33.120 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | But imagine if imagine if from the time that we were born, we had innate senses of your blood | 46:33.120 | 46:39.120 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | chemistry, if you could feel your blood chemistry, the way you can see, right, you had a high bandwidth | 46:39.120 | 46:42.960 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | connection, and you could feel your blood chemistry, and you could see, you could sense all | 46:42.960 | 46:46.640 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | the things that your organs were doing. So your pancreas, your liver, all the things. If we had | 46:46.640 | 46:51.040 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | that you we would be very good at detecting intelligence and physiological space, we would | 46:51.040 | 46:55.760 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | know the level of intelligence that our various organs were deploying to deal with things that | 46:55.760 | 47:00.320 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | were coming to anticipate the stimuli to, you know, but but we're just terrible at that. We | 47:00.320 | 47:04.400 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | don't, in fact, in fact, people don't even, you know, you talk about intelligence that these are | 47:04.400 | 47:07.920 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | the paper spaces. And a lot of people think that's just crazy, because, because all we're all we know | 47:07.920 | 47:12.160 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | is motion. We do have access to that information. So it's actually possible that so evolution could | 47:12.160 | 47:18.880 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | if we wanted to construct an organism that's able to perceive the flow of blood through your body, | 47:18.880 | 47:24.400 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | the way you see an old friend and say, yo, what's up? How's the wife and the kids? In that same way, | 47:24.400 | 47:32.560 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | you would see that you would feel like a connection to the liver. Yeah, yeah, I think, | 47:32.560 | 47:37.920 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | you know, maybe other people's liver and not just your own, because you don't have access to other | 47:37.920 | 47:41.680 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | people's. Not yet. But you could imagine some really interesting connection, right? But like | 47:41.680 | 47:46.160 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | sexual selection, like, oh, that girl's got a nice liver. Well, that's like, the way her blood flows, | 47:46.160 | 47:52.800 |