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325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | larger scale system. So apoptosis, it's really interesting. I mean, death is really interesting | 2:43:24.520 | 2:43:29.520 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | in a number of ways. One is like you could think about like what was the first thing | 2:43:29.520 | 2:43:33.040 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | to die? That's an interesting question. What was the first creature that you could say | 2:43:33.040 | 2:43:37.420 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | actually died? It's a tough thing because we don't have a great definition for it. So | 2:43:37.420 | 2:43:42.880 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | if you bring a cabbage home and you put it in your fridge, at what point are you going | 2:43:42.880 | 2:43:48.480 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | to say it's died, right? So it's kind of hard to know. There's one paper in which I talk | 2:43:48.480 | 2:43:58.880 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | about this idea that, I mean, think about this and imagine that you have a creature | 2:43:58.880 | 2:44:04.960 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | that's aquatic, let's say it's a frog or something or a tadpole, and the animal dies, | 2:44:04.960 | 2:44:11.680 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | in the pond it dies for whatever reason. Most of the cells are still alive. So you could | 2:44:11.680 | 2:44:17.600 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | imagine that if when it died, there was some sort of breakdown of the connectivity between | 2:44:17.600 | 2:44:23.200 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | the cells, a bunch of cells crawled off, they could have a life as amoebas. Some of them | 2:44:23.200 | 2:44:28.760 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | could join together and become a xenobot and twiddle around, right? So we know from planaria | 2:44:28.760 | 2:44:33.780 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | that there are cells that don't obey the Hayflick limit and just sort of live forever. So you | 2:44:33.780 | 2:44:37.800 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | could imagine an organism that when the organism dies, it doesn't disappear, rather the individual | 2:44:37.800 | 2:44:42.400 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | cells that are still alive, crawl off and have a completely different kind of lifestyle | 2:44:42.400 | 2:44:46.280 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | and maybe come back together as something else, or maybe they don't. So all of this, | 2:44:46.280 | 2:44:50.080 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | I'm sure, is happening somewhere on some planet. So death in any case, I mean, we already kind | 2:44:50.080 | 2:44:57.080 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | of knew this because the molecules, we know that when something dies, the molecules go | 2:44:57.080 | 2:45:00.640 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | through the ecosystem, but even the cells don't necessarily die at that point, they | 2:45:00.640 | 2:45:05.200 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | might have another life in a different way. You can think about something like HeLa, right? | 2:45:05.200 | 2:45:09.720 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | The HeLa cell line, you know, that has this, that's had this incredible life. There are | 2:45:09.720 | 2:45:14.400 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | way more HeLa cells now than there ever been, than there, than there were when, when she | 2:45:14.400 | 2:45:18.040 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | was alive. | 2:45:18.040 | 2:45:19.040 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | It seems like as the organisms become more and more complex, like if you look at the | 2:45:19.040 | 2:45:22.240 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | mammals, their relationship with death becomes more and more complex. So the survival imperative | 2:45:22.240 | 2:45:29.800 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | starts becoming interesting and humans are arguably the first species that have invented | 2:45:29.800 | 2:45:37.400 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | the fear of death. The understanding that you're going to die, let's put it this way, | 2:45:37.400 | 2:45:43.120 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | like long, so not like instinctual, like, I need to run away from the thing that's going | 2:45:43.120 | 2:45:49.560 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | to eat me, but starting to contemplate the finiteness of life. | 2:45:49.560 | 2:45:53.960 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Yeah. I mean, one thing, so, so one thing about the human light, cognitive light cone | 2:45:53.960 | 2:45:59.400 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | is that for the first, as far as we know, for the first time, you might have goals that | 2:45:59.400 | 2:46:04.200 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | are longer than your lifespan, that are not achievable, right? So if you're, if you are, | 2:46:04.200 | 2:46:08.160 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | let's say, and I don't know if this is true, but if you're a goldfish and you have a 10 | 2:46:08.160 | 2:46:11.800 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | minute attention span, I'm not sure if that's true, but let's say, let's say there's some | 2:46:11.800 | 2:46:14.760 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | organism with a, with a short kind of cognitive light cone that way, all of your goals are | 2:46:14.760 | 2:46:20.260 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | potentially achievable because you're probably going to live the next 10 minutes. So whatever | 2:46:20.260 | 2:46:23.560 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | goals you have, they are totally achievable. If you're a human, you could have all kinds | 2:46:23.560 | 2:46:27.440 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | of goals that are guaranteed not achievable because they just take too long, like guaranteed | 2:46:27.440 | 2:46:31.240 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | you're not going to achieve them. So I wonder if, you know, is that, is that a, you know, | 2:46:31.240 | 2:46:35.840 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | like a perennial, you know, sort of thorn in our, in our psychology that drives some, | 2:46:35.840 | 2:46:39.920 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | some psychosis or whatever? I have, I have no idea. Another interesting thing about that, | 2:46:39.920 | 2:46:43.920 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | actually, I've been thinking about this a lot in the last couple of weeks, this notion | 2:46:43.920 | 2:46:47.720 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | of giving up. So you would think that evolutionarily, the most adaptive way of being is that you | 2:46:47.720 | 2:46:58.480 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | go, you, you, you, you fight as long as you physically can. And then when you can't, you | 2:46:58.480 | 2:47:02.960 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | can't, and there's in, there's this photograph, there's videos you can find of insects are | 2:47:02.960 | 2:47:06.680 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | crawling around where like, you know, like, like most of it is already gone, and it's | 2:47:06.680 | 2:47:10.000 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | still sort of crawling, you know, like, Terminator style, right? Like, as far as as long as you | 2:47:10.000 | 2:47:15.240 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | physically can, you keep going. Mammals don't do that. So a lot of mammals, including rats, | 2:47:15.240 | 2:47:20.320 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | have this thing where when, when they think it's a hopeless situation, they literally | 2:47:20.320 | 2:47:25.780 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | give up and die when physically, they could have kept going. I mean, humans certainly | 2:47:25.780 | 2:47:29.060 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | do this. And there's, there's some like, really unpleasant experiments that the this guy forget | 2:47:29.060 | 2:47:33.320 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | his name did with drowning rats, where if he where where rats normally drown after a | 2:47:33.320 | 2:47:37.960 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | couple of minutes, but if you teach them that if you just tread water for a couple of minutes, | 2:47:37.960 | 2:47:41.480 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | you'll get rescued, they can tread water for like an hour. And so right, and so they literally | 2:47:41.480 | 2:47:45.360 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | just give up and die. And so evolutionarily, that doesn't seem like a good strategy at | 2:47:45.360 | 2:47:49.920 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | all evolutionarily, since why would you like, what's the benefit ever of giving up, you | 2:47:49.920 | 2:47:53.320 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | just do what you can, and you know, one time out of 1000, you'll actually get rescued, right? | 2:47:53.320 | 2:47:57.400 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | But this issue of actually giving up suggests some very interesting metacognitive controls | 2:47:57.400 | 2:48:03.080 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | where you've now gotten to the point where survival actually isn't the top drive. And | 2:48:03.080 | 2:48:08.080 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | that for whatever, you know, there are other considerations that have like taken over. | 2:48:08.080 | 2:48:11.560 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | And I think that's uniquely a mammalian thing. But then I don't know. | 2:48:11.560 | 2:48:15.560 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Yeah, the Camus, the existentialist question of why live, just the fact that humans commit | 2:48:15.560 | 2:48:23.080 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | suicide is a really fascinating question from an evolutionary perspective. | 2:48:23.080 | 2:48:27.880 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | And what was the first and that's the other thing, like, what is the simplest system, | 2:48:27.880 | 2:48:33.360 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | whether whether evolved or natural or whatever, that is able to do that? Right? Like, you | 2:48:33.360 | 2:48:38.760 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | can think, you know, what other animals are actually able to do that? I'm not sure. | 2:48:38.760 | 2:48:42.440 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Maybe you could see animals over time, for some reason, lowering the value of survive | 2:48:42.440 | 2:48:49.760 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | at all costs, gradually, until other objectives might become more important. | 2:48:49.760 | 2:48:55.560 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Maybe. I don't know how evolutionarily how that how that gets off the ground. That just | 2:48:55.560 | 2:48:59.320 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | seems like that would have such a strong pressure against it, you know. Just imagine, you know, | 2:48:59.320 | 2:49:06.600 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | a population with a lower, you know, if you were a mutant in a population that had less | 2:49:06.600 | 2:49:13.240 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | of a less of a survival imperative, would you put your genes outperform the others? | 2:49:13.240 | 2:49:19.200 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Is there such a thing as population selection? Because maybe suicide is a way for organisms | 2:49:19.200 | 2:49:26.440 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | to decide themselves that they're not fit for the environment? Somehow? | 2:49:26.440 | 2:49:31.840 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Yeah, that's a that's a really contrary, you know, population level selection is a kind | 2:49:31.840 | 2:49:36.660 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | of a deep controversial area. But it's tough because on the face of it, if that was your | 2:49:36.660 | 2:49:42.840 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | genome, it wouldn't get propagated because you would die and then your neighbor who didn't | 2:49:42.840 | 2:49:47.040 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | have that would would have all the kids. | 2:49:47.040 | 2:49:49.040 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | It feels like there could be some deep truth there that we're not understanding. What about | 2:49:49.040 | 2:49:55.140 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | you yourself as one biological system? Are you afraid of death? | 2:49:55.140 | 2:49:59.300 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | To be honest, I'm more concerned with especially now getting older and having helped a couple | 2:49:59.300 | 2:50:05.820 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | of people pass. I think about what's a what's a good way to go? Basically, like nowadays, | 2:50:05.820 | 2:50:14.880 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | I don't know what that is, I, you know, sitting in a, you know, a facility that sort of tries | 2:50:14.880 | 2:50:19.160 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | to stretch you out as long as you can, that doesn't seem that doesn't seem good. And there's | 2:50:19.160 | 2:50:24.840 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | not a lot of opportunities to sort of, I don't know, sacrifice yourself for something useful, | 2:50:24.840 | 2:50:29.400 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | right? There's not terribly many opportunities for that in modern society. So I don't know, | 2:50:29.400 | 2:50:33.640 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | that's that's that's more of I'm not I'm not particularly worried about death itself. | 2:50:33.640 | 2:50:38.040 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | But I've seen it happen. And and it's not it's not pretty. And I don't know what what | 2:50:38.040 | 2:50:46.380 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | a better what a better alternative is. | 2:50:46.380 | 2:50:48.080 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | So the existential aspect of it does not worry you deeply? The fact that this ride ends? | 2:50:48.080 | 2:50:56.360 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | No, it began. I mean, the ride began, right? So there was I don't know how many billions | 2:50:56.360 | 2:51:01.340 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | of years before that I wasn't around. So that's okay. | 2:51:01.340 | 2:51:04.740 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | But isn't the experience of life? It's almost like feels like you're immortal. Because the | 2:51:04.740 | 2:51:10.520 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | way you make plans, the way you think about the future. I mean, if you if you look at | 2:51:10.520 | 2:51:15.720 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | your own personal rich experience, yes, you can understand, okay, eventually, I died as | 2:51:15.720 | 2:51:22.360 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | people I love that have died. So surely, I will die and it hurts and so on. But like, | 2:51:22.360 | 2:51:28.960 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | he sure doesn't. It's so easy to get lost in feeling like this is going to go on forever. | 2:51:28.960 | 2:51:34.240 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Yeah, it's a little bit like the people who say they don't believe in free will, right? | 2:51:34.240 | 2:51:37.320 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | I mean, you can say that but but when you go to a restaurant, you still have to pick | 2:51:37.320 | 2:51:41.680 |
325 | Michael Levin | Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | a soup and stuff. So right, so so I don't know if I know I've actually seen that that | 2:51:41.680 | 2:51:46.080 |