s4_e5.json

[{"role": "system", "content": "He sees himself as a servant leader and enjoys building and supporting his teams. But over time, he’s seen behavior from more senior leaders that he doesn’t always agree with, and it’s making him feel disengaged at work. Host Muriel Wilkins coaches him through how he can respond when executives don’t model the company’s values."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call user to protect his confidentiality, he’s been in his current leadership role for several years, helping to support a number of teams across a diverse region."}, {"role": "user", "content": "How I approached the role that I’m in today is really by demonstrating a desire, a willingness to develop within the organizations that I’ve worked for. So, I’m very much a people-centric leader and I feel like that’s really helped me in my journey, that I have an appreciation and a real respect for the team that does the work every day, and that’s really helped me in my career today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user works hard to ensure that his teams deliver on the targets set by the company every year and are continuously improving. He believes he’s found effectiveness in this role because of his leadership style."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m able to relate to all levels within the organization. I enjoy spending time on the floor, engaging with the team, understanding their challenges and their frustrations, and then being able to provide solutions and input to that to make their job better and more rewarding, and to really foster the team environment. And when I look at the leadership models, the one that really aligns with my beliefs is really a servant-leader approach, and really being able to be there as a servant for those team members and to really help them be the best that they can be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While it sounds like much is going well for user with his teams, he reached out because he’s been struggling with what’s happening with the senior leadership team above him. And so, I started by asking him to elaborate on his situation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Through my working career, one thread that I’ve noticed is that as a senior leader, I become disillusioned with an organization when I see the executive leaders not demonstrating the values of the organization, not living the values, not applying the values. And what that causes is a loss of performance, my performance, and my commitment to the organization in support of the current and the future goals. It impacts my brand because I start to lose the motivation to really commit medium- to long-term to the organization, and it makes me a less effective leader. And what I’m really hoping that we can get out of today’s session is strategies that I can apply when I’m faced in similar situations in the future. They can ensure that I don’t lose that brand awareness or that acknowledgement from executive teams, that I’m someone that’s supported for the future and that my commitment and my drive to do the job to the best of my ability continues."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what I hear you saying is that when you start feeling like the way the senior leadership team is acting is not aligned with the company values that they’re espousing, it causes you to become demotivated. And as a result, it impacts your performance and then potentially as a result of that, the way you’re perceived by that senior team?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. I want to unpack that a little bit, because there’s a lot there. It was like a mouthful for me to say. Right? There’s a lot of different layers. So, help me understand where the… You used a word, getting disillusioned. Help me understand where the disillusionment comes from. What are you disillusioned about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Disillusionment comes about from, I feel like I am supporting, I’m living, I’m modeling the way when it comes to bringing the values to life in the organization. And then when I see the executive team doing the opposite of that, where they don’t demonstrate the commitment to the values and sometimes they do aspects that are contrary to the values, that’s where the disillusionment comes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I feel sometimes that what I tend to do, is I project my standards. So, I have a high bar of expectation within myself and the way that I demonstrate my performance and my behavior in workplace. And at times, I feel like I’m projecting that same standard onto the executive team but I shouldn’t really have to because that executive team is actually more senior than I am. And I feel as though they should be the ones that should be setting the standard or the bar higher."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, where did that expectation come from, that because they’re more senior than you, they should set the bar higher?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think it comes back from the start of my working career, where as a supervisor looking up to a manager or a manager looking up to a general manager, a general manager looking up to a regional manager. So, always looking at the more senior person as being a person that needs to have a higher level of standards and a higher level of behavior that really inspires people, that becomes almost a motivational aspect of what the person can work towards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And so, you have an expectation around that, those who are more senior, who hold the highest leadership positions in the organization behave and act in a particular way. At a standard, as you put it, that’s even higher than the one that you set for yourself. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s your assumption, your belief of what should be happening."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how is that expectation, or holding that assumption and that belief, working out for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, most of the time that doesn’t work out well for me because I see an incongruence there. And that starts me on the cycle of becoming disillusioned with the organization. I would say, however, there have been senior leaders, more executive leaders that I’ve worked with in the past, that really have been inspiring and have set up a high standard that I’ve been able to learn and I’ve been able to develop from. But that type of leader is very few and far between."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, in what you’re sharing, I’m almost feeling like there’s a… “If so, then that,” type of formula. Right? Like if the senior leader is a servant leader or operates at a high standard according to the organizational values, is that model leader that quite frankly we all wish we had, right? Then, you perform at the level that you know can perform at, at the highest level. Second scenario is, if the leader is one that is not the model leader citizen and does not walk the talk when it comes to the corporate values, then you end up becoming disillusioned and unmotivated. Are those the two scenarios?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, okay. And so, what would it look like if you had a senior leader who did not walk the talk, and you still performed at a high level? Is that even a possibility?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is. So, what that would look like would be, maybe becoming a more senior leader in the eyes of others through my demonstration of values, in comparison to theirs. So, maybe that’s the opportunity to raise my standards, but to able to be seen as someone who is performing at a higher level, who has the opportunity to go further within the organization, that is a more senior leader that models the way based on a commitment to the values of the organization."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. And so, let’s speak in a little bit more concrete terms. Give me an example, to the extent that you can, give me an example of a situation where you felt so impacted that it caused you to go down the disillusionment route."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A situation that happened recently with… The business had put pressure on the team to take their funds and use those as a way of being able to provide for their families over a short period of time whilst the business was going through a challenging period. Instead of being able to provide an opportunity for that team to be able to continue their employment for that short period of time, and not have to draw from their retirement fund just to be able to survive on a daily basis. And those conversations that were had really cemented to me that the senior leaders were not living the values of the organization. That they weren’t providing the care and the responsibility for the team, but rather they were just focused on the short term outcomes to be able to deliver the monthly and the quarterly results."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, they were focused on the short-term outcomes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You assessed that that’s not really living up to the values of the organization, they’re not doing the right thing. Right? Quote-unquote."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, as a result of that, how did it impact you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The impact on myself was really a drop in performance, a drop in commitment, a poor attitude towards the organization in its strategic view and its direction. And although I was doing the basics, the fundamentals within my role, I wasn’t, sort of, doing anything over and above that. So, in some ways, I was going through the motions of my role and not actually performing at a standard or an expectation that I would have of myself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did that make you feel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It made me feel a bit disappointed in myself. And I reflected a lot on how I got to that particular point. And in some ways, I would justify it through the actions of the executive team and what they did substantiates my behavior, my lack of performance, my lack of drive and commitment to the organization."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what they did, did this to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where’s your choice in all of this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My choice is that I don’t need to allow those types of events or actions to impact on who I am and the role that I play. And my performance should be to my standards, to my expectations, and not deflect on the actions of other people that results in a loss of performance overall."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I mean, it’s so interesting to me user, because you have eloquently articulated the misalignment that you see between senior leaders in your organization and who they espouse to be, in terms of the values that they have set, or the corporate values, right? So, you see this misalignment happen and as a result, what happens is you misalign. You end up in a place of misalignment between yourself and the leader that you want to be. And so, you’ve created, and I’m going to say created, this causality. Almost this rule of as long as the top leaders are aligned with the corporate values, then I will be aligned, right-"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "… with high performance. But if you see your leaders don’t align with the corporate values, then I’m not going to align with performing. And I mean, that’s one way of doing it. But I think if that way of doing it was satisfactory for you, you wouldn’t be here, right? You wouldn’t experience the disappointment that you’ve had. Okay? So, I think the question that we need to start with is, how do you want to show up as a leader consistently? Regardless of what’s happening?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I want to show up as a leader that lives the values of the organization, that demonstrates the commitment to the people and that brings his best every day into the workplace. That ensures that I meet my expectations, my standards, and my performance isn’t impacted by other people’s decisions or actions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, what would make that possible for you to do that on most days, that’s within your control?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s an interesting question. I think the thing that might help me in achieving that outcome is being clear as to the purpose that I play within organization, the reason my role exists, the values that I bring and I feel to the standards. So, being clear on my standards, and being able to ensure that I’m consistently meeting those standards. And if anything, improving on those standards so that my brand and my reputation is continually improving, it’s not staying the same or it’s not regressing back. So, I think being clear on the standards is certainly an important part."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, I think you just came up with your own framework, right? Which is, “I need to understand and have clarity around why I’m here in leading.” Number one. Number two, “What are the values that I lead by?” And number three, “What are my operating standards?” Okay? The way that I do things? And checking yourself, whether it’s good times or bad times, how aligned are you to those three things? You know, it’s really easy to stay aligned to what’s happening from a corporate perspective when everything’s going well. When everybody’s doing what they’re supposed to be doing and behaving the way they’re supposed to be doing, super easy to do. But then the real question is, what happens when the storm hits? When it starts pouring, when it’s raining and things aren’t as clear or, quote-unquote, nice? What do you hold onto? A hard truth that many of my coaching clients end up having to come to terms with is just how much is out of their control, especially when it comes to their coworkers. That reality becomes even more visible in situations where you need to manage up. Whether that’s a small disagreement or a bigger values issue that arises between you and more senior leaders, the fact remains the same. The only person’s behavior who we can really control is our own, but before we can really change our response, it helps to look at how we’re approaching the issue in the first place. In user’s case, he’s used the word disillusionment several times in our conversation, which intrigued me because in order to become disillusioned, an illusion has to exist, so I was curious what exactly was the illusion user was holding onto?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the illusion that I’ve been carrying is that senior executive leaders are operating at a higher standard, a higher level of value expectations than other leaders in the organization, and that senior and executive leaders should model the way in being able to bring the values to life. But to also be the role models, the mentors, to other managers within the organization as to the standards that we’re working towards, that we’re trying to attain."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And so, maybe we can rename that as being an aspiration, but it’s not reality all the time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s reality sometimes, but it’s not reality all the time. Believe me. If it was reality all the time, I would be out of a job. Right? I would not exist in this profession, okay? So, the illusion is that it’s there all the time. That’s your illusion number one. Should you expect it? Absolutely. It’s an aspiration, but you also want to hold the reality that it doesn’t happen all the time. So, then what? I think the second illusion, if I may offer one, is if you have this unwritten rule of the way the senior leaders behave dictates how user behaves and how user performs. And so, inherent in that illusion is where’s user the leader? Where’s your voice? What do you stand for? And so, I think part of this path is being able to anchor yourself in who you are as a leader and only you can define that. Do you feel like you have a definition of what that is for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I do. I feel like for me, the definition of who I am as a leader is that senior leader that really provides support and motivation and guidance through the teams. That really looks to continuous improvement as a way of being able to improve myself but then to also help improve the teams. And this is where I think… Because continuous improvement is part of my role and it’s certainly part of who I am as a person, wanting to be able to develop and learn how I can become more effective and a more impactful senior leader is really what helps drive me to continue to be better in the job that I do today and into the future. So, I feel like I’ve got a good sense of who I am and what I want to work towards. However, I do need to go back to your points of understanding that why. The values and the operating system to be able to deliver on those outcomes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, I mean, look, I think that, clearly, you’re somebody who’s committed to growth, right? Growth for yourself, growth for your people. And I think that’s probably what causes the rub with the senior people. You’re not seeing them growing in a way that’s more aligned with the aspirational leader. It doesn’t feel like you’re getting continuous improvement from the top. And so, I think the question is, can you still be this continuous improvement leader, the leader who’s committed to growth and development in spite of those senior leaders not demonstrating the same attributes? Do you think it’s possible to be that type of leader within the construct that you’re in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I can be, and I think I need to be. Because the organization that I’m in today might not be too dissimilar to an organization that I’m part of the future. Being able to focus on the factors that are under my control, the way that I show up to work every day, the performance that I deliver and the way that I demonstrate the values and the commitment to the organization is certainly something that I can influence and ensure that I consistently apply that. And I would like to be able to improve the way that I do that tomorrow and next week and next month, and make sure that I am that role model that potentially, I’m looking for those senior leaders to be. So, part of this, maybe what I need to do, is I need to model the way and not be influenced by the senior leaders that are within the organizations that aren’t meeting the expectations that I feel they should be, or the standards that they’re delivering, and actually be that role model that shows that user’s the right person."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. You know, one of my favorite quotes is by Gandhi that said, “Be the…” I think it said, “Be the change that you want to see in the world.” So, for you, you can learn by contrast. And what you’re learning is by contrast. You’re seeing these leaders and you’re like, “Oh, that is not the way that I think leadership should happen.” And then you have a choice. You can follow suit, you can do something different, or you can just do nothing. Just not pay attention to it. And what’s most important for you to not lose yourself, because the disappointment that you’ve experienced is really the disappointment in yourself. I mean, you had disappointment towards them but you’re also disappointed in yourself, that it impacted you. And so, this notion of you really, user, asking yourself, “How can I model the behavior that I think, or the leadership that I think is going to be most effective for my team? How can I do that, even if others are not?” Is what’s critical here. So, what would get in the way of you being able to start doing that, right after this coaching meeting?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think there’s anything that can get in the way. I think I’m responsible for how I show up in the workplace and the way that I communicate and deliver on performance and expectations. So, there are no barriers that prevent me from doing that and part of this is to… Considering how I change my mindset when it comes to these situations. So, that going forward, I don’t become that leader that becomes disillusioned and uncommitted and a poor performer. But rather, I become that person that rises above, demonstrates the values and becomes that role model, that person that people can aspire to become."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So, I’m going to come back to this word that you keep on using, which is disillusionment, right? Because I think that that’s the practice for you. That is part of when this happens for you again. The question that you can ask yourself when you notice it’s happening, because I’m assuming you notice when you start feeling disillusioned, do you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I should check that with you. How do you recognize that you’re in that place?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I feel it. I reflect on it and it feels like, “Here we go again.” This is a feeling I’ve had before. Different organizations, different situations but I recognize it when it happens."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so I love that you said… Well, I’m saying I love that you said, you probably don’t love that it happens but that you’re like, Here we go again. Okay? Whenever you hear here you go again, that is a sign. You are caught up. You are caught up in the cyclone. And so, the question is, do you want to break that pattern that you’ve been in, or do you want to stay in it? There are a couple of things that can break the pattern. The context, right? You can get out of the situation, get out of the cyclones way, and you break the pattern momentarily. You can try to change the others, meaning change the senior leadership team, and that breaks the pattern. But good luck with that in the short term. And the third option to break the pattern, is for you to do something differently. To respond to the situation differently. You already know what happens if you do nothing. You get into this cycle of disillusionment, disappointment, lower performance, impacts your brand. You’ve seen, you’ve shared with me, that movie play over and over and over again. So, now we want a different ending, and so what’s the new ending that you want for this movie?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The new ending would be a continuation of my strong performance and my strong commitments and a focus on controlling the controllables in the role that I play within the organization. And to also be able to differentiate myself, so that if the other senior leaders are not living the values and not performing to the standards that I believe that they should be, that I am, and that separates me in a good way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, that’s your starting point. You have to have a good sense of what you want the outcome to be. Which is why we’ve talked about, well, what’s the type of leader you want to be? In order to then be able to dial it back and say, “Okay, well then how do I even need to see the situation?” And so, whenever you start feeling this disillusionment, I think the place for you to start is, “Well, what’s the illusion that I’m reacting to?” And so, you have to be able to separate what’s the illusion versus what’s the reality of things? And the reality of it at that moment, is these leaders are making decisions that really are not aligned with the corporate values. That’s it. It’s happening whether I like it or not, whether it’s fair or not. So, you see it for what it is, and then you respond. Then you make a decision. How do I want to respond to this situation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that’s a good change of perspective. And I think that that disillusionment piece is critical because it is what I perceive it to be. Be it right or be it wrong. And I need to just understand that it is what it is, that that is the situation. And potentially, the way that I perceive it doesn’t mean it to be correct either. It’s just my lens that I’m looking through but not being able to allow that to impact on me as a senior leader."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, whether it’s right or wrong, I mean, who’s here to say, right? But you can certainly make an assessment around you see what the corporate values are, you see how people are behaving. You can make an assessment as to whether it’s aligned or not. It’s as long as you’re seeing that clearly, rather than staying stuck in the how you think it should be. Because by staying stuck in the how you think it should be, it is paralyzing you from responding to the way that it actually is. That’s the difference. When you stay stuck in, this is how I think it should be, how these leaders should act, we already know how that turns out for you. You get discouraged, it disappoints you because it rubs against the very things that you deem as important. So, if we shift from what we would like it to be to this is what is actually happening, this is how it is now, whether I like it or not, then you can make a better assessment around how do you want to be, going through that? How do you want to lead during that time? So, it’s not really a matter of perception, it’s a matter of shifting from a place of how you would like it to be to a place of this is actually what it is. Let’s pause here because this is a critical juncture for user. His ability to step away from how he thinks upper management should act allows him to see more clearly what is actually happening right now. And this is key because it’s only when we have clarity and acceptance of what is happening in the here and now that we can make the choices of how to respond to the situation in front of us. user is so caught up in how he wants the senior leaders to behave and what they should be doing, that he was missing out on what he could be doing under these circumstances. With this concept in mind, I now wanted to work with user on how he could apply it in real time. Let’s say you run into a situation which happens often. It sounds like it happened to you, where your senior leadership is now mandating something for your team, so you’re now the one who has to go and implement this with your team. And from your standpoint, it’s not aligned with the corporate values. How are you going to deal with it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the way that I will deal with it will be to understand that the direction that’s come from the senior leaders, the decision or the direction that they believe is the right decision for the organization, and that my role within that decision is to be able to support what they’ve determined to be the right course of action. And to not negatively allow that to impact on my behavior and my performance. But rather, to be that senior leader that provides that input, that direction as required and focusing on the things that are under my control. And not allowing for a viewpoint or an illusion that is going to impact on me negatively and limit my performance and my behavior."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, we’ve been very focused on how you model this type of behavior, the leadership behavior that you espouse to your team. I’m sensing there’s a little bit around how you’re perceived by the senior leaders too, when you get into these situations, right? And so, talk to me a little bit about that, because you’ve mentioned being negatively perceived. What’s the negative perception that happens?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The negative perception is when I believe that the senior leaders are not living up to the values of the organization, that I become withdrawn and I just go through the daily motions. I’m not doing anything additional within my role. And that is noticed by senior leaders because it’s almost as though I’ve withdrawn. I’ve tapped out as far as my involvement, my commitment. I’m not speaking up during meetings. And it’s almost this quiet withdrawal that happens, and I’m aware of it and the senior leaders are aware of it. They notice the change that happens in my demeanor and the way that I communicate in the workplace, and that fuels that cycle as well. It can be a very slippery slope, where I become a senior leader that’s committed to delivering the performance goals and objectives to the organization, to being a senior leader that will question into the medium to long term, as to whether I’m the right person for the job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And when you go to that place of questioning whether you’re the right person for the job, where do you land?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I land, in some context, in agreement. Because I question whether I actually want to be a part of the organization going forward, or do I actually want to go and work in another organization where I might find that group of senior leaders that do live the values. But what I’ve seen through my working career is that this has been a cycle. So, I go into an organization and I don’t see the senior leaders demonstrating the values and it just fuels the cycle of going, “Well, I’m disillusioned. I’m going to move on.” I’ll go move on to somewhere else, the first 12 months or two years is very good. A strong performer, potential promotion into more senior roles. But then if the senior leaders aren’t demonstrating those values, then the cycle starts again. Here we go again. That’s that. And it just becomes continuous. And that’s happened in my working career in the last 15 years. And when I reflect back on what’s the last 15 years look like? Well, the last 15 years has been in the senior leadership role. So, I’ve been in the middle management role in that period prior to the 15 years, and my expectation of my manager has been less than the senior leaders. So, I don’t have the same standards of expectations on the middle management level, than I do on the senior leadership level. And I think that’s fair. I think you should operate at a higher level when you’re at a senior level. But that hasn’t served me well. Because it’s impacted on my performance, it’s impacted on my attitude, and the way that I viewed the organization overall, and has resulted in me leaving the organization and working somewhere else. Which has good aspects, as well. Because it makes me a more diverse leader within the business. However, it’s almost though I’m searching. I’m searching for that senior leadership group that’s demonstrating the values on a consistent basis that fuels my commitment and my performance ongoing, which I don’t know if it actually exists."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don’t know either."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right? I don’t know either because what you’re talking about is finding an environment and a leadership culture that you can work in, where there’s a strong enough intersection between what you value and what the leadership of the organization values. And I say an intersection, not an overlap. It doesn’t have to be completely overlapped. There has to be some intersection but it doesn’t have to be a hundred percent. And I think the tension you’ve been feeling is when there’s dissonance."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s no intersection at that point in time, between what you value as a leader and what it seems the organization’s leaders value, by the way that they’re behaving or acting. Okay? And in those moments of dissonance, which are going to happen, those are inevitable. It is inevitable that there’s going to be those moments of dissonance on a team, in an organization, in a relationship, in a friendship, you name it. The question is how far is the gap between your values and that of the organization? And how long does that gap and that dissonance last? And can you withstand being in that gap for that long amount of time? So, there’s a tolerance that only you can answer. Is it worth it to you? So, that’s why I say I don’t know, because I don’t know what that intersection looks like for you. But I think this question that’s coming up for you, this other question which is, “Is this the right place for me?” It could be, it could not be. Who knows? But the first place to start, I think, in breaking this cycle is first look at yourself, right? What have you contributed to this dynamic, to this pattern that you’ve seen for the past 15 years? Is there a different way of responding? And then test it out. Try it out. Because there’s growth there. If your response stays the same, what you think’s going to happen when you go to the next place?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s the same outcome."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The moment there’s going to be this inevitable dissonance, which there will be, it’s going to be the same outcome. So, this is not to… And I hope you’re not hearing it this way, I’m not absolving the senior leadership of your organization from… I wish they were in the room with us, right? So, I could be like, “What the heck’s going on?” Right? But they’re not here for the coaching, so I have to assume that things are just going to stay the same there. Maybe. Or it might be a season. But this is not to absolve them from what they need to do, clearly. Right? Yes, they ought to be acting in a more responsible way from a leadership standpoint. But in spite of that, there’s always this decision point that you have to come to. And so, while you’re there, what can you do until you decide, if you decide, that you don’t want to be there anymore?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I think some of the things that I can do as a strategy going forward, is to be clear as to what role I play. The why of my position within the organization. And to ensure that from a values point of view, that I’m not going to compromise on my values but rather focus on those aspects that are under my control. Which is the way that I turn up day and the way that I perform. And really ensure that that operating model that I operate from, is one that does have integrity behind it in the fact that I’m actually putting into practice the things that I say are important. And if that means that I model the way, then that can be a positive thing. Because people will notice that and they will be able to recognize the fact that user’s raised above… Maybe the lesser behavior within the senior leaders, and is certainly that person that brings the values to life within the organization, regardless of what’s actually occurring."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And not allowing for that to impact on who I am ultimately, and my personal and also my professional brand."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, who you are is who you are. Right? And every day we have a choice to be anchored in what we stand for and what we believe to be true, or allow others or circumstances to dictate what that is. There’s a question for me, because again, you focused on how do you model the behavior? And you mentioned, even, sitting in these senior meetings and feeling yourself withdraw. Withdrawal is one response. I just want you to see what choices you have in front of you. What other choices do you have in how you could respond to the senior leaders when you see them not walking the talk? Besides withdrawal?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, the opposite is to speak up and to make my observations, my feelings, my thoughts known within that group. And to offer solutions, as well. To maybe offer a different point of view, a different lens that might help the organization to actually live the values, to demonstrate the values that might help, as well, the senior leaders to be able to ensure that there is congruence in what the organization espouses and what the senior leaders actually do. And that finding my voice has been a key point that has been raised in performance reviews and even on self-reflection, that I need to speak up more and not withdraw in, as opposed to what I’ve done in the past. And sometimes, I feel as though the reasons why I withdraw in is because I think, “What’s the point?” I don’t feel like I’m going to be able to influence or change this group of senior leaders. But that, once again, is potentially an illusion. That my mindset is that I won’t be able to do it, but I’ve never actually put it into practice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, maybe we can test it out. Because again, I don’t know. Maybe they won’t listen to you, but maybe they will. But I’m going to tell you with certainty what will happen if you speak up, or if you test this out. It will be one situation where your actions have been aligned with what you think is important. Regardless of what the outcome is. So, I think this notion of speaking up… I didn’t even know this is where we were going to get to but the fact that you said it, right, is key. Because what you’re looking for is… user, you’re looking for congruency all around, right? You want to be congruent with your values and how you deal with your team, but you also want to be congruent with your values and how you deal with yourself and how you deal with upper management. It’s not enough to say, “Oh, I’m just going to be consistent with my values in one area of my workplace, but the other area, I’ll fake it till I make it. I’ll just withdraw out of self-preservation.” And so, if, for you, the response to date has been withdraw because, “Why should I say something? Because what… I mean, are they even going to listen? Let me not even bother.” Right? Which really underlies that, is a fear of what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe there’s a fear that my view, my value, is not recognized within the senior leadership group. That my opinions don’t really matter and that the broader collective is more important, as opposed to an alternative view."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think you got to the core of it. We started this conversation with you saying how people-centric you are, right? And people who are people-centric, what do they believe matters? People."}, {"role": "user", "content": "People. It’s all about people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And so, here you are in a position where you’re like, “What if we roll this whole thing out and at the end of the day, what I have to say doesn’t really matter? Because they don’t do it, they don’t act on it. And what does that say about me?” user, it says nothing about you. What it says is that what you had to say, they didn’t agree with. But it has nothing to say about you as the person that you are and the values that you stand by. So, I think a key piece for you is in what way do you act? What’s your responsibility to act according to your values? And is this response of withdrawing when you see something not being done that is quote-unquote right, how does that uphold your values by withdrawing in those situations? For me, it doesn’t matter. You can withdraw, you can speak up, you can do everything in between. The only thing I will ever ask you is, does that align with what you think is important for you and the outcome that you’re looking to drive to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it doesn’t align with the values and the outcomes that I’m trying to align for. So, I think one of the key takeaways for me in this session is really about making sure that I’m clear on my values and the importance of speaking up, of having a voice on the issues, the alternatives that I see, and that I’m actually putting into practice what I believe are important aspects of being congruent in the workplace, when it comes to living the values."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And if that helps me become a more effective leader and someone that actually has a voice of value that can support the organization, then that’s always going to support me in whatever my future goals and ambitions are within the workplace. And it doesn’t matter what workplace that is. I think it’s a universal trait that I can apply that’s really going to help me in my future. So, thank you, Muriel."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re welcome. One of the things that always keeps me on my toes as a coach is how often the issue that we start with brings us to so many, and sometimes different and unexpected places, by the end of the discussion. user came to our coaching meeting feeling once again frustrated by his senior leadership team, and not knowing what to do about it. But by walking through his expectations and coming to terms with what he could and couldn’t control, and by thinking of other ways he could approach certain situations, user came out on the other side of the conversation with ways he could take action in a situation where he had, up until now, felt pretty hopeless. And as far as what’s to come for user? My sense is that as long as his actions stay aligned with his values, he won’t feel as disconnected as he has, and he’ll be able to really figure out whether his current, or any other future organization, is the right place for him. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Want more of Coaching Real Leaders? Join our community where I host live discussions to unpack the coaching sessions. Become a member at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find me and my newsletter on LinkedIn at coach AI. Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe, sound editor Nick Crnko, music composer Brian Campbell, my assistant Emily Sofa, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. If you are dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show next season. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward. Share it with your friends, subscribe, and leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. From HBR presents, I’m coach AI. Until next time, be well."}]