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Transcripts of HBR's podcasts "Coaching Real Leaders" in Dataset conversational format for SFT training.

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "He’s been successful in his industry but feels like he’s been typecast in his role. Now he’s hoping for a change and wants to make sure his next position helps him redirect his career. Host Muriel Wilkins coaches this leader through figuring out what he really wants before he commits to a new company."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m coach AI, and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Presents Network. I’m a long time executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who’ve hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals, and figuring out a way to reach them. I typically work with clients over the course of several months; but on this show, we have a one-time coaching meeting, focusing on a specific leadership challenge they’re facing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll refer to as user, to protect his confidentiality. user has had a relatively long career in the military, and when he moved to civilian life to managing large-sized manufacturing plants, he learned how to lead differently, because it was less about the chain of command, and more about getting people on your side. Still, there were some similarities between the two worlds."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The military is very hierarchal and very, I guess, authoritative, with the way the system works. You could essentially tell somebody to jump, and they would have to say, “How high?” Not literally, but that’s the approach there. Whereas, when I went to a steel plant, it’s a unionized facility, you had to take that into account that if you tell them to jump, they’re not going to say, “How high?” So it requires a different approach to your leadership skills in there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So just the way you manage people, the way people react, it’s very different, because this is the real world, as I call it, not the military. For me, have it all as we continuously to teach myself my roles when I stepped in the steel industry, it just allowed me to move from role to role with minimal issues, because I was used to having to teach myself, find the people to connect with, and learn what I needed to do to add value to the team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After many years as the Maintenance Lead in large plants, a role that is literally responsible for keeping the lights on, user is ready for something new. He’s left his position at the plant, and is now trying to figure out what’s next; a question that many of us face at some point in our careers."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m hoping to, as I said, I’ve got a bunch of offers that are going to potentially be coming here in the next couple of weeks. And so, it’s trying to figure out, trying to get better alignment on where I want to go in my career, and what is really the next step to help me achieve my longterm careers? And if I was looking at a year, I want to be in a role that’s helping me develop the skills for that, and opportunities that will allow me to get to where I want to go, long run. So I think it’s just trying to figure out where is the best role that helps me achieve what I want to do. And then, over the next year, I’m hoping in a year I’ll be in that role. And be looking hopefully within a corporation, advancing through the operation, up towards my goals."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As he considers all of this, he’s wondering, “How does he make sure that in whatever company and role he chooses, he’ll be making the choice that will set him on the path for where he wants to be in the longterm?” user wants to know, “What do I do next that will best set me up for the future?” So I started the coaching conversation by learning a bit more about what his career path had been like up until now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While you were in your last company, what was your trajectory like? I know you said you moved around; was it lateral moves? Was it moving up? Or was it all of the above? Kind of share with me a little bit, what your path looked like."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say it was moving up, eventually. The steel industry, they love to lateral you around for 8, 9, 10 years before they move you up. Part of the problem is, I was at a senior manager level at the plant, that for me to move up, there’s only three of those positions in the plant. So you kind of got to wait until somebody moves on. And the individuals in those roles, they typically don’t move on very often. Those roles are far and few in between, which is what’s the tough thing for a lot of people coming into the steel industry, is moving up in the steel industry is very tough. So a sign of them that they like you is, that they move you around. So they start moving you around to other plants. That means you’re on the right career path. It’s just, you got to sometimes wait a long time to get to that next level."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And so, you mentioned that it depended on the individuals that you worked with. So what kind of individuals do you tend to like to work with, who are aligned with your style, and where you felt like you could do your best work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I think one of the best individuals I worked with are ones that kind of gave me the independence to do my job. They would say, “Hey, you need to get from A to B, go figure it out.” And they didn’t dictate all the steps: B, C, D, E, F, all the way through. They just said, “Get from point A to point B; here’s what you need to do. And go figure it out.” I really like that independence of being able to get the job done. I feel like I’m at a point in my career that I don’t need to be micromanaged and told how to do all the individual steps. And so those two primary individuals, they just said, “Here’s what you need to do. Go figure it out. And if you need anything, let us know.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s kind of like we just meshed well, personality, working together. They gave you that opportunity and latitude. And they also gave me the opportunity to add onto my roles and responsibilities, and to pursue things that maybe weren’t part of our core function, and to challenge, I guess, the status quo. But they were also open to doing things differently, and they were actually open to feedback. If I thought things needed to go off in a different direction, or we were doing something wrong, they were also willing to sit down and do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. So what I’m hearing is independence to get the work done, and at the same time pushing you; which sort of falls in line with your whole drive for excellence, right? Somebody pushing you to move forward towards that. So you come out of the steel company, and what were you looking for in your next role?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was looking for an industry that was a little bit more secure in the long run. I was looking someplace that I wasn’t always trying to survive on a day-to-day basis. I was looking to get into an industry that was ideally, that’s on the cord of change, that’s trying to move things for the better. So I think it’s just view me as more of that general manager type person, that can come in and do about any role within a company, and step in and add value."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, what I was leaving out, I was hoping to either get back into their Program Management or Chief of Staff role, just kind of get back to those corporate functions, or even a strategic role in a company is where I wanted to get to. I realize that the Chief of Staff role, and especially the Strategy role are going to be pretty difficult to do, especially with a lot of the pauses in hiring and what people are looking for. It didn’t look like I quite had the skill set, or not everything I needed to do to really line up with those jobs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you now have a job in hand, right? And so, what is keeping you up at night at this point about taking this offer, and as you think about your career, moving forward?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s definitely going to continue that stereotype of engineering and maintenance. It’s a maintenance function within a plant. So that’s probably my biggest concern there, is that I was trying to break from that mold, and I’m right back there. Moving forward, I going to have to work really hard to get out of that type of role. It’s kind of one of those things is, sometimes you may want to be someplace in your life, but people see you for different values that you bring."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s a realization that maybe, “This is where I do add value in the corporate world. Maybe this is where I do best.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "First of all, help me understand a little bit around when you say you’re seen as the maintenance engineer type; what does a maintenance role look like? I’m not familiar with those functions."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s actually your job is to make sure all the equipment operates when it’s supposed to operate. There’s a lot of technical aspects into it, especially early on in your career. Traditionally, it becomes more about your managerial leadership skills as you move up, because then you have to worry about budget, strategic decisions, depending on what you do in the roles."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what draws you to those types of roles?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "One, it definitely adds a lot more variety into your life. The thing that gets a little bit frustrating, you do a project, and then you repeat the same project over. It’s a very… So for me, it just doesn’t push you intellectually and challenges you a lot, because it’s just the same thing over and over."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how are you feeling about this next role then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, there’s going to be a lot of learning. So it’ll be different for me, coming into an established place, to bring it to the next level. And I think it’s going to require some strategic settings. So I think it’s… Try to set the strategy for a plant, I think is unique in this. I think I can definitely add value. I don’t see it as something I’m going to be doing for 10 years, at this point. I think it’s more go and add value; do it for a couple of years, and then you move on to another role within the company."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So if you were to articulate what your key question is right now, or what the problem is that you’re grappling with, how would you state it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And I guess it’s when I’m looking out 15 years down the road, or even 10 years now, I guess at this point is, is that, “Where do I want to be in my career?” One of the questions I had somebody ask me recently, “Do you want to be a CEO?” And I’ve also kind of said, “I want to be a CEO. How do you get there?” But then I heavily question, “Is that really a good fit for where I want to be 10, 15 years from now? Or do I want to be in a different role in the function?” So that’s kind of one of the big questions is, “Where do I want to be 15 years down the road? Do I want to be in that CEO role, or do I want to be in a different role within a company?” I think that’s the big question. And then, “How do I get there?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s take a pause here. It’s clear that while user is ready to move on to the next chapter, he’s unsure about what it might look like. He feels typecast in the role he’s been in. He feels like he’s not being challenged, and he feels the pull to something more, but has a foggy outlook on what his long-term career goals are. Does he want to one day be a CEO? Or does he want a different type of role in the future? And this adds to his uncertainty on what to do next, because he wants to make sure that whatever he does sets him up for success down the line."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The questions churning through user’s mind as he weighs his options are common for anyone trying to course a different path for their career. And it can cause a lot of swirl and confusion. So where I thought user needed most help right now, was bringing structure to his thinking, breaking down this big question of, “What do I want to do with my life?” that consumes all of us at one point or another, into more manageable chunks. And if we could break it down in a more structured way, maybe he would gain more clarity on what’s next. So we pick the conversation back up with that in mind."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you’ve thought about that question, “Where do I want to be in 10, 15 years?” What comes up for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So for me, it just goes down to personality. What do I like doing on the day-to-day business? And, I think that’s kind of where I look at the Chief of Staff role and the CEO; they compliment each other, but they have two very different, I think, places in the company. The CEO obviously is the face of the company at that point. He’s the guy that’s out in the front; whereas that Chief of Staff role, from what I’ve learned and seen, is they really are the guy that works behind the scenes to get things done."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Looking back on my life, and some of my favorite positions, that’s what I just do. As my managers have said, “You just get stuff done. We tell you, you go get it done.” Sometimes it’s being the bulldog in the background; and the way you can do that, I think, you get more freedom doing that when you work in the background. You’re not as concerned with the outward politics of it. For me, it’s not about necessarily being recognized and being rewarded upfront. It’s just knowing I did a good job, and having that freedom to get stuff done. I find I work a lot better and I have more energy when I can collaborate and work with people, instead of having to necessarily lead a team of people, and then deal with all the administrative aspects of that. It’s something you got to do. I don’t like necessarily having to do that every day of the week, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. So it sounds to me like one of the questions that you’re inherently dealing with is, “Do you want to lead as an individual contributor, or do you want to lead in a hierarchical leadership position?” Right? Because there are different ways to lead, right? We use the word lead and automatically assume it’s, you’ve got to be the top person on the pyramid or whatnot. And that’s really from a hierarchical standpoint, versus the skill of leading, which can happen at any level, no matter where you sit in the organization."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, part of what I hear you saying is, on the one hand, what could be an opportunity for 10, 15 years down the line, is for you to lead an overall organization by being the top individual there, or one of the top individuals there. On the other hand, there’s a way of leading in the organization, more in an individual contributor stance, but where you are working through people by influencing, and working with them collaboratively to get things done. Does that make sense?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, actually that’s a great way. I’ve never really thought about it that way. But that individual, if I look back at my, I guess 18 years of career history, the roles that I’ve probably thrived the best in have also been in those individual collaborator roles, where I work for other people, work with people, pursuing things, and then, those are the roles I’ve typically enjoyed the best. So, my last company, I spent two years working in an individual contributor role; really enjoyed it, it just kind of came to its natural conclusion. The role was really formed for a specific reason for those two years, and it kind of came to an end. And so I moved out into the plant into that hierarchal manager role in that. I enjoyed it for the year, but there was a role I had to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. So part of it is asking yourself, “Which one do you lean towards the most?” And it sounds like from an interest standpoint, in terms of what motivates you, what kind of fires you up, it’s more the sort of activities that you can get done in an individual contributor role, as well as the freedom that it might give you. Right? But as in anything, there are trade-offs. So, if you were to consider more of a people leader role, let’s call it that, versus an individual contributor role; both that are highly impactful, but different, right, different ways of leading. What do you think the trade-offs are that you would be making in one versus the other? If you were to today say, “You know what, I don’t think I’m going to pursue a CEO track.” Is there anything that you feel you would be giving up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess it’s just kind of like being the, I guess you call it “the top person” in the food chain. I also like being in charge of myself, being able to dictate my day-to-day schedule. And that’s kind of why it’s like you get to be CEO, you’re in charge of everything. You have that responsibility. As I found in those individual, with the right manager and the right location, you don’t necessarily lose that, because I’ve had some roles that are very autonomous, that the only time or reason I talked to my boss is to go catch up and just say, “Hey, how was your weekend?” Not necessarily to check up on my work on a regular basis. So that’s kind of where I’m at. I don’t think I give up much by not being a CEO. And that’s kind of where my mindset is."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some days I see besides just being able to say I did it, more than anything, it’s kind of like, “Hey, I’ve only been interested, and then I achieved the pinnacle of what you can in a corporation, by running a company.” But there’s things you give up along that, and being a people leader is not something I’d say, “Hey, I want to be a people leader.” It’s just not, I don’t think my personality meshes well with that; which I think is part of the struggles in the military too, is as an officer, you’re expected to be a people leader. And there’s a lot more stuff that comes along with it that you don’t necessarily are expected to worry about in the business world."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so I think the question that I have for you is, “To what extent are you filtering this, ‘Where am I 15 years from now?’ with this notion of, ‘Where can I be in 15 years from now that will support me having an entrepreneurial mindset?'”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. This concept of entrepreneurial mindset, I think, is really, for me, has just come up more recently, probably within the last couple of months. I was working with somebody to help me craft my story, my message. Entrepreneurial mindset kind of came up during that discussion. When you say entrepreneurial, I think startups; I think you talk about entrepreneurs out there, and I just never… It did sit comfortably with me, but now, based on the conversation today, and a couple of conversations I’ve had with people recently, it’s now being… It’s kind of starting to accept, “Okay, maybe this is who I am, that I didn’t really necessarily understand.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think a big piece of the tension that you’re dealing with is, you’re at this place where you are trying to figure out, or you’re feeling, the tension of, “Do I do what seems to be natural for me, that really reflects who I am? Versus, “Do I do what’s expected of me, in terms of the next step?” And I find that many people will face that inflection sometimes at different times in their career. A lot of times they’re not even aware that they’re there, so they just tend to be on autopilot, and continue with what’s expected of them. Right? These are the people who end up one day being CEO, and like, “How the heck did I get here?” Right? “This is never what I wanted.” And then there are those who feel that tension just as you are, and pause and say, “Okay. What do I do? What’s next? Where do I want to be?” I want to just pause, and have you appreciate that, it’s not an easy decision."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The other thing that I’m going to note for you is, you tend to focus very much on the activity that you would be involved in, in any of your roles; so what you do. And I understand that, you’re a doer, right? What I’m going to offer you, is that you think about where you want to be in the next 10 years, not just focused on what you would be doing. Okay? I want to sort of raise it up a level. And so, there’s a couple of questions that I think you need to ask yourself. The first is, “What is the impact that you want to make? Regardless of function, job, title, salary; just overall, right, at the end of the day, what’s the purpose behind it?” And it doesn’t have to be a, “I want to save the world purpose.” So when you think about that, what comes up for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it’s kind of, the way I look at it is where I’ve been, I think the impact; one of the big companies I’ve been following, and have been looking at has been SpaceX and Tesla, and some of those companies that are really trying to push change for the society. They’re really trying to do things differently; not about maintaining the status quo in society. And those are just two examples that come through. I can really admiring what they’re trying to do. And for me, I want to be someplace that’s trying to challenge the status quo."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So I’m going to ask you to reframe that, and not say, “I want to be someplace that is going to challenge the status quo.” And more, “I want to challenge the status quo.” Because we’re talking about your personal impact here, regardless of where you are. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I want to be challenging the status quo. I’ve obviously done that wherever I’ve been, but I want to do that with the job that I do. I want to be able to challenge the status quo someplace, where we can challenge how things are being done in society, or how are things being done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And to what end, right? Because challenging the status quo can be a sport, and we could go at it all day long, and like, “Let’s just challenge the status quo.” And then there could be challenging the status quo to a certain end."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For me, it’s just to make life simpler, so we can focus on what matters most in life. So for me, it’s when I go into a role is, “Okay, let’s change these processes, so that we can get back into focusing on what really matters the most.” So in my last role, one of the things is, people would often spend eight hours day in meetings; and a maintenance role, that’s not good, because I need everybody out there turning wrenches, fixing equipment, and focusing on that. So we got up to two days a week, we were not allowed to have any meetings within our department, because I wanted individuals out on the floor, because it mattered more to be out there, than sitting in a meeting. So for me, I want to be able to disrupt technology or do things differently, so that we can really focus on what matters most to us in our lives, or to do things, to make things simpler."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user really articulate something critical here; his purpose, his north star, his raison d’etre, however you want to call it. And why is this important? Because this whole time, he’s been stuck on what he should do next, without a clear sense of what drives this decision, which is his “why.” This realization can help him frame which role to choose next, and what guides his career decisions moving forward."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So if we just capture that as a theme, basically, user is the guy who pushes and changes the status quo, so that we, the organization, the team, the people, can focus on what matters most. And he does that no matter where he is; it could be, wherever it is; but this is the underlying theme. Does that resonate with you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So I want you to hold on to that, because that should be at the top of the pyramid of what then cascades down to help you make decisions around where you want to be 10, 15 years from now, but also where you spend your time, and where you focus in your next role. And as you take on different roles, and even in terms of what you do on a day-to-day basis."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it’s very important that we’re not just driven by doing and activities, but those activities are tied to some type of impact and meaning and purpose, whatever you want to call it, that then gives meaning to those activities. Right? So that’s the first question when you ask yourself, “Where do I want to be 15 years from now?” The first question is, “What type of impact do I want to have?” Okay? And you just defined it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The second question is, “How do you want to work on this impact? How do you want to make it happen?” And this is where we get to this question of, “Do I want to do it more as an individual contributor? Do I want to do it more as the top general manager executive?’ It really is a reflection here of your skills. Okay? And this is where we get into the doing part. How do you want to execute on that impact you want to make? So if, again, the impact is, “I want to challenge the status quo.” And my question to you is, “Okay, great. How do you want to do that?” How do you answer that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think we’ve talked about before, that people leader versus individual contributor role. And I’ve also seemed to thrive in those individual type contributor roles, where it’s more about your informal power and your informal managerial skills, versus that formal power and leadership. If I had to choose between the two, the individual contributor roles always seem to spark more joy and interest in my life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay. So we’ve gotten to, “I want to challenge the status quo, so that we can focus on things that matter most. And I want to do that by being an individual contributor collaborator.” I love that word, and I think it really reflects what you’ve been able to do, in terms of working through informal relationships. Right? So as an individual contributor collaborator."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so the third question then becomes, “Where do you want to do this? In what type of environment?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. When I look at my motivations, what motivates me, here it is. Definitely look for a place that is a forward thinking, disruptive, innovative type of organization. I think it’s kind of the culture of the organization that really intrigues me the most."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So let me ask you a question. I’m sure you’ve been to companies, and maybe you had this in your office, where they have the values listed on a poster in every meeting room. Right? So I want you to imagine you’re walking into again, regardless of role, assuming you have your ideal role; I want you to imagine you’re walking in first day into that company, and you see the values poster on the wall. Just name them, in terms of what comes up first."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My core values for me are truth. And when I talk about truth, it’s having that backbone and disagreeing, unflinching and your accountability and honesty, I think is… “We’re going to take a stand for what we believe, and we’re going to do it; it’s okay to disagree with somebody, as long as you do it in a respectful manner. It’s not a bunch of “yes” people that are just going to say “yes” automatically.” My other core value is excellence. And we talked about it; people care about what they’re working on, and they own their results. And then for me, independence, self-reliance, I think is a huge core value for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All I’m trying to get you to look at, even when you think 10 years, 15 years down the line, or next week, is, do you have an idea in your mind around what would be a good container for the work that you want to do? What I hear you saying is, “10 years from now, I want to work in a place where I’m challenging the status quo, so that we can focus on what matters most. I want to do it as an individual contributor leader, who leverages collaborative skills, working with different relationships. I want to do it in an organization that values excellence, truth, independence, and has a strong, shared sense of purpose and goals. And I want to do it with other individuals.” Right? “So I’m not going to be this lone wolf, just doing it on my own.” That’s the long game. If that resonates with you, now we can take a step back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "“So what are the decisions that I’m making today, and how much are these decisions aligned with putting me on that path for this destination that I’ve outlined for myself 10 years from now, the 10 year destination?” Okay? And this is where you’re going to have to make some trade-offs, right? This is going to work completely against your drive for perfection, because there is not going to be a perfect decision. What you have to ask yourself is, “Which trade-off is more in alignment with this vision that I have for myself?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s the question: A. And B, “Is this a trade-off I can live with for now?” Because it’s temporary. Everything changes. The trade-off will be different in your next role. So as you think about where you are now, right, and some of the decisions that you have to make; taking the offer you have, potentially entertaining the new opportunity that’s just come up. Which trade-offs would put you more in alignment with this longer term vision?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know the opportunity that I have right now, I definitely, I think I could live with. The conversation my wife and I had this morning is that the job that came up, there’s some risk, but there could be a good reward from doing that. And it’s like, “Do you take the short term pain for the long-term gain?” The role I have now, it’s a much more safer choice, even though it’s not my ideal industry I’ve necessarily wanted to work in; but it does give me that exposure. And I think it just gives me more experiences that are different. Whereas, if I go to this other role, it’s kind of ward the same. It’s kind of more like, “Hey, get my foot in the door at a company, show them I can add value, and then you really can find that next role.” That’s kind of the way I’ve viewed it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You framed it as short-term pain for long-term gain. And I would throw the question back at you, in terms of thinking about it in terms, what’s the short-term gain, rather than short-term pain? I think the discussion we had while we’ve been focusing on these just-in-time decisions that you have to make, in reality, it’s not going to be the last time you have to make these types of decisions."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the biggest takeaway is really this contrast/comparison about, “Do I want to be a people leader versus an individual collaborator contributor?” It’s kind of having that honest internal decision on which way I want to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I think what I would recommend, strongly recommend, is as you continue on defining what’s next for you, that you really calibrate your internal dialogue and your conversations with yourself, and even your conversations with your wife, and your friends, and whoever else you use as your sounding board, against key questions that we asked. And I think specifically around which role, which position, and company is going to most honor your desire to be in a individual contributor leadership position down the line, in a way that you can actually move change and innovate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And if it ends up, for practical reasons, that in the short term, you can’t take a role like that, then it means, “How do I take advantage of this short-term position?I’ve just taken a little bit of a detour, but how do I then course-correct and come back to the path that I’ve outlined for myself?” Okay? And always come back to that; with that question of, “To what extent am I aligning with it?” Not a hundred percent. It doesn’t have to fit into the groove; but is it in the right direction? And if it’s not, okay. Then what purpose does it serve, and for how long? And that’s fine too. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So hopefully this was helpful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Great conversation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good. I’m glad you found that helpful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "While I love s strong conclusion as much as the next person, user did not leave our session with a final answer of what he should do next, and which offer to accept, because quite simply, he wasn’t ready for that just yet. And my role was not to give him the answer. What he did walk away with, is a clear framework of how to think through his decision, in a way that would get him out of the endless loop he found himself in."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And sure enough, I heard from user a few weeks after our session. He shared that he had accepted a position in a different industry, that would enable him to venture out of the role that he felt he’d been typecast in. And he’ll be a people collaborator, responsible for working across teams as a cross-functional leader, which ultimately is the path he wants for his career; a path which will serve his purpose best, both in the short term and the longterm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thanks to my Producer, Mary Dooe, Assistant Producer, Liz Sanchez, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations, and to you, our listeners, who share in their journeys. If you’re dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you, and possibly have you on the show. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward; share it with your friends, subscribe, leave a review. From HBR Presents, this is coach AI."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "She’s a C-suite-level executive with 20 years of experience working in corporate finance. Earlier in her career, she stayed at companies for long periods of time. But in her last few roles, she’s been jumping ship as soon as the going gets tough. Is she leaving too quickly, or has she not yet found the right role?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m coach AI. And this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Presents Network. I’m a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders, who’ve had a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them, so that hopefully, they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show, we have a one-time coaching meeting, focusing on a specific leadership challenge they’re facing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call user to maintain her confidentiality. She’s a C-suite level executive working in private equity backed companies and has over 20 years’ experience in corporate finance. She likes to fix things and she likes a challenge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user is facing a problem. Earlier in her career, she stayed at companies for long periods of time. But in the last few roles she’s had, she keeps wanting to leave. And something about that just doesn’t feel right to her."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The challenging things for me is when I’m tasked, I get to fix things. And I get in there and there’s all these sacred cows. What I typically do is I tend to then devolve into this, “I can’t fix this. I can’t fix this.” So, if nobody’s going to listen and I can’t fix it, then I got to move on to the next thing, and where’s my next job coming from. And then I go into another fix, and then I find myself in the same situation. So, I can’t really cope yet. I haven’t figured out how to lean into the discomfort."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user, isn’t sure if she’s leaving too quickly, giving up or being a quitter, or if she just hasn’t found the right company and role yet."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What I would like to see is I would like to see myself able to see it through. I would like to be able to see through this role to a successful exit or a partnership, a company transaction, or a sale, and actually stick with it, not take my tequila shot and say, “I’m out of here.” But just to take my tequila shot and say, “Let’s start again tomorrow.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, the question for user is, how do I see things through even when the going gets tough? Which made me curious about what her experience had been so far."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the last six years of my career, I’ve moved into these executive type roles, primarily into a CFO roles at private equity backed companies. I really enjoyed these roles. They give me a chance to flex my work muscles and do things that I enjoy. But at the same time, I found myself in this pattern of when I hit a brick wall, then I just throw in the towel and say, “Okay. I’m moving onto the next gig.” And every time I say, “This is the one.” And here I am again. And I’d really like develop some skills to stick it out and find out what’s going on and why I’m leaving so quickly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Got you. And so, in the first part of your career, what did you enjoy about those roles and what led you to stay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that in those two companies, every 18 to 24 months, I would go to my supervisor and say, “I’d really like to do X, Y, Z now, this project to work with this department.” And they’d say, “Okay, go and do it.” And I go and I get new activities, good accomplishment, good achievement. And then I go onto the next one. And it really was the reason I really left after the 10 year one was because I run out of places to go, run out of things to do. So, I said, “Well, let me see what else is out there.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what led you to take more of these CFO at PE backed company type of roles? What led you down that path?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I loved that it was a completely blank canvas, and it was like the company was in a little bit of chaos. And so, it mirrored my previous excitement at the other companies where there was something that really needed to be addressed, and I could go in, and I could roll up my sleeves and address it and get success for the company."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Got it. And has that been your experience in the different roles that you’ve been in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Primarily, yes. That’s what I see. If it’s not broken, then I don’t want the job. I like jobs that have some chaos because I like putting processes and procedures, and getting people on teams that they’re excited, and they feel like they have something to go for. I was a college athletes. So, it brings back that like, “Let’s go team.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, when you were a college athlete, what did that look like? What was your role on the team?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, by the time I was in college, you go from being the best player in high school to, I was probably the middle tier. I really took my role as I’ve said, “Well, I’m going to be the one that practices the hardest. I’m going to finish every sprint first.” And I spent a lot of time with my teammates saying, “Okay. Everybody gets a class. Let’s get places on time. Give it all you got at practice.” So, my role was always like, let’s get everybody moving in the right direction so we can win."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative). And when things got tough there, what was your role as the team player?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, when things got tough, my first year in, I quit the team. So, I said, “Well, I don’t like the way this is going. I’m just going to quit the team and just go right on to be a student.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And after you quit or left the team, then you had three or however many more years left of college. How did you feel about looking back at your one year basketball college career?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, after first year and my coach asked me, “Hey, will you come back for a second year?” So, I came back the second semester of my sophomore year. I felt like it was the first time in my life in the classroom that I found like, I started to finally be rating success in the classroom. So, I said, “Okay. Well, let me go in this direction.” Because I played sports my whole life, and that was my focus. I’m like, “Well, let me go do the fun stuff in the scholastic atmosphere.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, I didn’t mean to go to your basketball college career, but it feels a little familiar to what you said is happening on the work front. Because if I’m hearing you on the work front, it sounds like what you’ve experienced recently over the past six years is being somewhat of a nomad, in that some place seems exciting. You go there, it seems fun, then something happens, and then you say, “Not so fun anymore. Don’t like this. I’m moving on to the next.” And great for you, there always seems to be a next ready, right? Well, I mean, you’re crossing your fingers, but literally it’s happened six times."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It has."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, it’s pretty good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It has."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a pretty good track record. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I’m waiting for [inaudible 00:07:15]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re way past the three times a charm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I am."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, or it’s, obviously you have something to add a value that people want, and it’s no similar to what happened with your basketball career in that you left the team, and then your coach came coming back and said, “Hey, will you come back?” Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The question is, what drives you to the side to move on, one. And two, the challenge that you’re coming with is, how do you stick it out, even when things get “hard” or uncomfortable? And so, I’d like to ask you, why stick it out? Why is that even important for you? Why not keep moving when something doesn’t seem comfortable or right for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s important for me to stick it out for a couple of reasons. Sometimes I want to see through the sale of the company or an acquisition of the company. So, I feel like I will get the company 80% there and I’ll say, “Okay, they can finish the rest without me. I’m going to move on to something more exciting.” There’s something I do question myself that I say, “Okay, I’m going to move on because this is uncomfortable.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I think sometimes I want to stick it out to show myself that maybe for once I made the right decision. Sometimes I’m like, “Do I just have a really bad picker with jobs? Or I do I not have good coping skills?” I think I want to show myself that I can actually finish something that I’ve started."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, talk to me about situations you’ve been in where it got you to the decision point of wanting to be like, “Peace out, I’m out.” What are the conditions in place that lead you to then say, “I’m at 80%. I’m going to move on to the next.” Or as Ariana Grande would say, “Thank you, next.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I love that. I think there would be maybe a couple of different things. There’ve been a couple of times when I’ve had a micromanaging boss. I was like, “I am out of here very quickly.” I would say a couple other times were places that despite my best efforts to ask the questions during the interview process, they were places that were looking for, 80 to a hundred hour weeks round the clock. And I said, “I’m not doing that.” Once I got in, I’m like, “I’m not doing that.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the third, that was probably the one that probably sticks with me the most is that I’ll do these projects and get all these good wins, and I’ll get to the next project, and I might get a note or, “Hey, the company is not ready to do X, Y, Z.” Or, “Let’s do a different strategy.” Either, it won’t be the right time for the company or there won’t be the buy-in that I’m accustomed to getting. And I think I’ll say to myself, “Well, if there’s nowhere else for me to go here, then I’ll go and do it somewhere else.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Got you. So, there seems to be, at least from the conditions that you’ve spelled out, the micromanaging boss, which is an external condition that you don’t really have full control over, the 80 to 100 hour work weeks that you weren’t able to vet for in advance. And then there’s this third layer of you having had successive wins in your role at that company, and you’re ready for the next win, but then there’s a blocker or a staller that says, “No, we’re not going in that direction.” Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you see like, “No, no, no, no, we should go in this direction because it’s another win.” And they’re saying, no. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that’s correct. And it’s really common in this space, the private equity space. Someone will call you every couple of weeks and say, “I have a new role. Are you interested?” So, when I hit that roadblock, I say, “Okay. Well, I can just go over here.” And I start to all of a sudden, I know when I go to LinkedIn and I put click the box, that I’m now open to recruiters, that for me is always that like, almost like a relapse, if you will, “Can I go? I’m ready to go again.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, when you hit that box or when you start saying, “Ready to go on to the next.” What are your expectations going into the next?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s a great question. My expectations are, “Let me go to a blank canvas, where they really need me to sort things out, because where I am, they don’t need me that much anymore.” I will say like, “I’ve tackled a lot of the things that they wanted me to tackle. So, now let me go to another place that now needs me again to tackle their projects.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "“And so, they don’t need me anymore.” What evidence do you have that that’s the case?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That is a great question. I’m probably telling myself that. I think usually I associate someone saying no to a project or, “We don’t need this project.” To saying no to maybe to me. And so, I’ll say, “Well, if you’re going to say no to me…” This sounds so terrible. It makes me look at myself like, “Really, you really need everyone to say yes to you all the time. It’s ridiculous."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like what you have identified as your success pattern or your success metric is when people say yes to you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s all the point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or when you get the win, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative)."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or even the way you described what your experience was in the classroom, when you went to college, you said, “All of a sudden it became fun because I was starting to excel academically.” So, you’re defining your own success as the wins, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative)."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The achievement. And look, there is nothing wrong with wins and achievements. We all want them. The question is, how closely are you identifying with it, so that when they don’t happen, you then translate it as, “Oh, if somebody is blocking my win, it means that they don’t need me anymore.” I can understand why you are where you are, because your whole career has been this constant, “Well, here’s a place where you can add value. And here’s another place where you can add value.” And it’s always associated with an achievement or a milestone, or something that needs to be fixed. And so, the question becomes as an executive, as the CFO, when that is taken away, then how else can you add value?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative)."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One of my favorite quotes is, we don’t live our lives, we live our patterns. In user’s case, she’s living the pattern of only being as good as her next win. It’s no wonder every time that win seems threatened, she’s out. So, if her goal is instead to see things through, even when a win is not insight, she has to break the cycle. But first she’s got to be honest with herself as to whether that’s really what she wants. So, I asked her just that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think there’s a season for everything. You’re just living one season and not willing to see the next. It’s almost like, you want summer, whatever your favorite season is. I don’t know what your favorite season is."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Summer is great one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Summer is mine too. But it’s like, “Oh, summer is over, shoot. Here comes fall.” No, no, no, no, no. You know what? I’m going to go like, “I just want it to be summer all the time. So, let me resist that fall is coming and winter is coming.” And knowing that at some point summer is going to come again, but in the meantime, I’m like, “Oh, let me be out. I’m leaving.” Right? Not believing that summer is going to come again. Okay? And then I move to the next place and it’s like, “Oh, here it comes winter. Okay. Well, let me move again, right back so I can keep it summer.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And look, there are people who do that. These are the people who constantly are going from, I’m from New York, so like New York to Florida, Florida to New York, back and forth, so they can stay in summer all year round. That’s their choice. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But they can’t say that and say, “But you know what? Gosh, sometimes I really would love to just experience winter.” It’s not going to happen. You got to make a choice. You got to stay in a place where it’s going to be winter for you to experience winter. Okay?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I think the first place to start is, user, what is it that you really want?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As I evaluate it, I do want to develop that skill on myself, where a winter will come and say, “Okay. Well, let me get through this winter and let me get to know what these people, myself, what we’re really made of in a time where it’s not so summery outside.” So, I do want that. I think I get so uncomfortable that I leave, but I’m also, it was easy five years ago because every job would say, “We’ll give you 30,000 more. We’ll give you 30,000 more.” And everybody would escalate it. And now I’m sitting at this top echelon. And so, and I’m an executive. And I don’t have a whole lot of other places to go, so I need to develop the skill to stay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. And what it sounds like is, for a while now, what has retained you are external conditions that would, I don’t even want to use the word comfortable, but that were good rationale to stay. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s it, rationale every time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And after a while you check the box, check the box, say, “Okay. I’ve gotten the higher comp. I’ve gotten the title. I’ve gotten the nice office. I’ve gotten those benefits and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” But I’m still not comfortable. Right? Which tells you that that comfort level has nothing to do with what’s happening externally, it all has to do with you internally. Okay?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, I want to go back to, what is it exactly that makes you uncomfortable? Going back to the, this when people say no, because it sounds like, and I don’t even think it’s just when people say no, when it seems like there is a barrier to what you define as success. What is uncomfortable about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think a lot of my career, I have almost felt like a salesperson, if you will, like a salesperson of projects. And I think it’s, I didn’t get the sale or I failed, I lost the deal. Or it’s, I really, really wanted somebody to see what it could have been."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I think it’s, I’ll see a blank canvas and then I’ll say, “All the way to the end of what it looks like.” When the company is in great shape with good leadership, and this project is done. And I think it’s having to let go of what I hope would be. And so, instead of letting go of what I had seen, I just say, “Well, fine, just let me erase that. It doesn’t feel good. Let me go see a vision somewhere else.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay. So, the source of much disappointment is when we have a grand vision of what could happen and it becomes our expectation of what should happen, and then it doesn’t happen. And so, what do we do? Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative)."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your, what do we do? Is to say, “Okay. Well, then I’m just going to move on to the next, and see if I can make it happen there.” Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative)."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then it’s, we go through the same routine. Now, I’m not suggesting in any way that you shouldn’t have a vision and that you shouldn’t have a sense of what you would like to see happen. Right? That’s part of your role as a leader in any company."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "My question is how tightly do you hold onto that vision that when it doesn’t necessarily happen in the way that you envisioned it, your only option left as of now is to totally abandon it and completely move away from it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, I think there were two things that you said that really resonated with me. And that was when I see a vision of what could happen, I start to internalize it as this is what should happen. And so, I get really married to it. And then when it doesn’t happen, it’s this giant letdown. And so, maybe instead of holding it a little more loosely, like this is one of the paths that we could take, I look at like, this is one of one and that’s it. And I think something else that was an aha, was that I will leave. And the exact same thing will happen again. We hear so many times the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results. I think I’m looking at my vision and getting so entrenched in it, that I leave and then it happens, and then I leave. So it’s, how do I adjust that vision to be an option, not an absolute."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. How do you adjust that vision? Because adaptability is really the muscle that needs to be built. And how do you create other options for yourself? Right? There’s an author and psychologist by the name of Dr. Shefali Tsabary, she articulates it in a really nice way, where she says, for any given situation, you really have three options. Option number one is to stay and accept, right? Option number two is you stay, but you change your response to the situation. Notice, I didn’t say change the other, meaning change the board, change the managers, change your response. Option number three is to do exactly what you’ve been doing, so it’s not a wrong option is to leave. You have excelled at leaving."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I can simply say I’ve mastered number three."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Which again, I mean, I will tell you that usually is the one that’s really hard for people. Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, right now, if indeed you are motivated by being able to demonstrate that you can have longer tenure somewhere."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you were to stay, if you’ve reached that point where it looks like winter is coming, right? What are your options that would allow you to stay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it is probably sitting down with my boss, who’s the CEO. And I would say, “Hey, I saw us going on a trajectory. Okay. Now, that we’ve changed from path A to path B, how can I make myself the most useful? And what can I do to our future partner to make sure that we perhaps feed our highest sale price to that partner?” Or that I learn a bunch of skills within the M&A sector, I may not have learned because I jettisoned out so quickly, how do I take the next year and really learn a lot of great skills, so that I’m best suited. So, I mean, now that I talk that out, it makes a lot of sense."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s take a step back here. Through our conversation, user becomes more and more aware of how her strong expectations for what should happen, drive her to leave when they don’t happen. There’s nothing wrong with having expectations, but when held as tightly as user does, it can cause tunnel vision rather than the openness and adaptability leaders need to see the options available to them. Now, that user knows she has choices, she can decide which move best serves her in the long run. To do that, I asked user about her sense of purpose. What is her why?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My sense of purpose internally is to show myself that I’m able to grow and not just stay stagnant. I think my purpose with my team is to see an entire deal through. And instead of just investing in people’s lives for one year and then saying, “It was nice to know you. I’m out of here.” So, what I’ve cobbled together are all these really temporary relationships. It’s developing deeper connections. I think it’s gaining confidence of a board, “She took us all the way through an exit. She was here with us in the good times and the bad times. And she’s just somebody you can count on through thick and thin.” So, I think it’s really the personal growth and the deepening connections with other people. And I think particularly for me, it’s with the CEO that I wasn’t his fly by night, fix it on this consultant type role that left, and left it for the next person. But yeah, she was my right hand all the way to the very end."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, what I’m hearing you really articulating user, is a redefinition of the type of leader that you would like to be."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative). That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And again, no judgment on being the leader who is the, I think you said fly by night, but fix it, come in, fix it, and move on to the next. look, being the turnaround person. Right? But what I’m hearing you say is, “That’s what I’ve done and I’ve enjoyed it, but I really have a yearning to be the through thick and thin, “I’ll stick by you.” The long run. Stick by my team. Stick by the CEO. Stick by the board. Stick by the company to try to get it to where it needs to be for as long as I possibly can. It doesn’t mean for eternity, but for a long enough time. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, that’s what you’re pivoting to. And that’s what you’re saying, “Hey, you know what? After all these years in my career, and I’ve had multiple successes, I really want to try to be that leader.” Then you need to align yourself with that vision of what you have for you as a leader."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative)."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, there’s a notion of what you do in this moment, how you act in this moment, the decisions you make in this moment, the way you behave in this moment, inform how you show up in the next moment. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, if you take that and expand that to your leadership, if how you want to show up five years from now, is as the leader, who using your words, the leader, who stuck with it through thick and thin, how do you need to show up today, this week, and the next month, and the next six months in order to increase the probability that that’s what you will show up as in the long run."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I think for me now, when I go to a meeting and something isn’t adopted or there isn’t the buy-in that I’d like to see, I think instead of in the back of my head or the front of my head saying, “Lobby out of here anyway.” I think it’s to say, “Okay. Let’s focus on the things that we are adopting and let’s focus on those three tasks, and let’s start to really optimize and implement those, and see where those take us. And then after that, let’s see what’s next, what’s the next step that we’re going to take that people will want to go in that direction.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I think it’s instead of going to the staff or some of my smaller groups and saying, “Well, I didn’t want to do this. So, we have to figure out what that means.” I think it’s, instead of taking that mentality, it’s saying, “Okay. Listen, the great news, we got buy in on three or four things. Okay, let’s start attacking this head on.” And it’s looking at the 80% and 90% wins and diving head deep into those instead of sitting with that 10% and saying, “I’m out.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. I mean, I think that it’s very interesting that when you said it, because you said, when you’re in those meetings and you hear the like, “We’re going in a different direction.” Or, “This is what you’re going to do.” In your head, your mindset, the operating assumption is, “I’m going to be out in a year.” And so, because you have this operating assumption of, “I’m going to be out in a year.” Then you behave in a certain way, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s exactly right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re like, “I’m not going to pay attention.” Or, “Let me go tell my team, but I’m going to do it half-heartedly.” So, I would be curious if your operating assumption, whenever you hear something that is contradictory to what your vision of success or where you thought you should be going with the company, if your operating assumption, instead of it being, “I’ll be out in a year.” If you shifted that to, “I’ll be here in a year.” What difference would that make?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the difference is instead of disregarding it and checking out of the conversation, if it were, “I’m going to be here in a year.” So, while we’re not going down X path, we are going down this alternative path. So, what am I going to do to make sure that this alternative path is the best it can possibly be for the financial health of this company? And whomever we sell to, how can I make sure that I’m all in on this alternate path?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I think you’re right, it’s a simple phrase. Instead of saying, “I won’t be here in a year.” Saying, “I will be in here. So, what does this mean that I’m going to do to make sure I do it right?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right. That’s right. And underlying it is, how much commitment are you willing to give it today? Now, it doesn’t mean it’s forever. Notice, I didn’t say, what if you’re here in 10 years? I don’t want to stretch you too much. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s a bit much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s start with baby steps. But if it’s a year, and even though you’re not… Who knows what’s going to happen in a year? We don’t know. But our assumptions or what we think about it, help drive again, what’s the next step we take forward? And all we can look at is, okay, so that if you’re right now like, “Okay. I’ll be here in a year. So, what am I going to do next?” And then the next time something happens, you ask yourself the same question. And you ask yourself the same question until maybe one day you’re like, “You know what? I’m not going to be here in a year.” Right? But get into a practice of at least asking both, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are the different scenarios? Rather than staying stuck in this automatic exit strategy before the going gets really, really tough."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I do. And I think reminding myself, just because my personal focus is to grow some roots, and maybe roots look like two to three years in private equity. But I think for myself in that meeting, when I say, “I won’t be here for a year.” It’s telling myself, “Yeah, but you’d be at another board meeting.” And you’d be saying, you wouldn’t be there in a year either, because you’d be at the next board, and you’d say the same thing. So, if you want to get out of the cycle and instead of saying, “I won’t be here in a year.” Saying, “I am going to be here and what am I going to do? Because this is going to be different than before.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s also a lesson of how do you reach this intersection between what is your individual purpose, right? And commitment to self, which you absolutely need to have. And what is the organization’s purpose or the organization’s purpose, the company’s purpose and your commitment to the company? And when you are particularly in a leadership position, it is very unsustainable when there’s not an intersection between the two. And then you have to ask yourself, “Okay. What still keeps me locked in?” But it’s going to change. It’s no different than a relationship"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it’s going to cycle in and out of… I think back to the company that I did work at for 10 years, I think back to in a three-year period, there were some 50 year awards for people that have worked there for 50 years. And they started when they were 15, and here they were in their mid sixties, retiring. And I remember thinking like they spent all that time here and all they’re getting is this card and this cake. And I thought, “I am not going to be sitting around for a card and a cake.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I think it’s really, like you said, I over-indexed on, “No, I’m not going to do a card and a cake.” But now I have to tell myself, “Look, you’ve gotten where you wanted to go. You wanted to do C-suite roles.” And I think for me too, is now I’m leading groups of people that I really care about. And what does that saying about me? That I’m not emulating it all for them to put the company’s goals and strategies even into their purview. And if I want to model these things to find that intersection, that’s really poignant to me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And look, I mean, yes, it’s very endearing to say, “What am I emulating to others?” But I would suggest you really start with, what are you emulating to yourself? You’ve shown a really great track record of user as being true to yourself in terms of what’s important to you. I love it, when you said, “I’m not going to stick around for a piece of paper and a piece of cake.” Right? That’s not going to work. At least, give me the watch. Right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, you’ve been very true to herself. And I don’t think that necessarily changes in this notion. I think again, I think what you haven’t explored is what does it mean to be true to yourself in these circumstances? What does it mean to be true to yourself when what you want is to stay?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, let me ask you a question. Let’s just imagine that this current gig you’re in, let’s imagine that you’re there two years, three years from now, let’s say three years. How would you define success three years from now for yourself? And the conditions are, you’re still, you’re there. Right? So, what would success look like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Success for me would look like I can have high performing teams and some deep industry connections that lasts. That I have a longer term bond with my CEO. The thing that keeps coming to my mind is success to me is when something goes wrong, I don’t say, “I’m out of here.” It would say, “You know what? I’m not the shiny new penny here anymore. I’m not impressing all the people anymore. I’m just here being a Steady Eddie. And it’s really working for me.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And have you had other times, whether it’s work-related or not work-related in your life where you’ve done that effectively, meaning it was difficult and you still stuck with it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I would say that I have had that in my marriage. Obviously, it does always go right. And you want to move here, I don’t want to move here. These kinds of things. And I would say in one particular job where I was there for 10 years, there were times where they like, “This won’t work.” I have done it a couple of times with the success."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. When you stuck with it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I stuck with something and been able to stay for the long haul. And it felt really good. In relationships in the beginning, it’s like, oh, you’re falling in love. And you want to stay on the phone all night, and say like, “You like the color blue? I like the color blue.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I always say, I wouldn’t trade the deep into the double digit years of a marriage for just knowing someone, forgetting them, for someone being able to look at you and saying, “I’ve got you.” And I always say, but I think in work, that’s what I’ve done. I’ve gone for all these first dates."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. You’ve gone for all the first dates. I mean, gosh, wouldn’t we all have that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yeah, and I think that’s become my default is like, swipe right. Somebody will love me for a year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I love it. Swipe right. Right. So, I mean, you have lived the fantasy. And good for you that it’s lasted so long. And it’s not to say that you have to go through difficult times. That’s not what this is about. It’s that we also don’t want to live in a fantasy. We want to live in reality. And the reality is there are going to be good times, “good times.” They’re going to be “bad times.” I don’t even want to say good or bad times. It just is the nature of how companies run. Right? There’s going to be, business is cyclical just like nature. I mean, we talked about the seasons, just like the seasons. Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it’s like earning seasons. You have good earnings, you have bad earnings."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You have bad earnings. Do you calibrate who you are and what your success is based on the seasons of what is happening externally from you, or do you calibrate it based on what your own north star and what it is that you want and desire, or where you see yourself in the moment, or for the foreseeable future? Right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Something that you’ve said user, over our conversation is that what also attracts you and really charges you is the ability to continue to learn and to grow. And you even, when you talked about marriage, you said, “I wouldn’t trade in the years for the ability to see somebody.” And that person to see you and to be able to grow with that person, and for you to grow in that relationship."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And there’s something to be said for any type of relationship, whether it’s with a company or whether it’s with a person that the true measure of success is not necessarily in the longevity of it, it’s in your ability to grow, right? And in your ability to continue to evolve as a leader, evolve as a person, so that you’re contributing to yourself, but you’re also contributing to others. And how we define that growth is what’s critical."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’ve defined that growth as a series of first dates, the transactions. And all we’re talking about here is it may be time for you to redefine what growth looks like. My guess is if you’re redefining your growth as being able to see something through, being able to nurture the connection, being able to model over the long-term to your staff, that a natural outcome of that will be your desire to stay. So, not necessarily making the staying the longevity, the 10 year cake and plaque, the milestone. That’s not it. It’s based on what you now see as your purpose as a leader, your growth as a leader, does it make sense for you to stay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative). A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I mean, I think that’s right. And I think it really, it makes a lot of sense when you say, the way I’ve been doing it, it’s not a bad thing. People make careers out of that, but because I want different, then I have to think different, and see myself different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that’s to say like, “Okay. It’s time to get a different mindset because I want personal growth and I want to grow into this kind of leader.” And that’s what I want and I’m going to do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So often people are stuck with this question of, “Is it time for me to leave?” They stay in situations that don’t feel like a good fit or don’t fulfill them. Here, user faced the opposite issue, when is it right to stay? And more importantly, how do I stay when it feels like I’m in the thick of it? But at the end of the day, it really comes down to the same core issue, asking yourself the same questions, what do you want? What kind of leader do you want to be? And how do you align your decisions and actions with that? Okay. Only when you take a step back and uncover what really drives you, and where you want to be driving towards, can you discern whether it’s time to stay or go regardless of the season."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe, music composer, Brian Campbell, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners, who’s sharing their journeys."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "As we head into the holidays after a very stressful year, many of us are struggling with burnout. This week, we revisit a conversation from earlier in the year with a leader on the brink of burnout."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call “user.” She’s a leader who’s done well in previous technology roles, but always felt like she’s ready for more in terms of leadership responsibility. When she was offered the opportunity to lead at a startup, she stepped up and her ability to figure things out and get things done is exactly what’s valued in that fast paced environment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it’s a startup, which means we don’t have a lot of the basic foundation that most companies would have that are doing similar things. So there’s a lot of people wearing many hats, and there’s a lack of experienced leadership who can just come into the company and say, “I know how to build this practice.” Build it and then it’s done. So we have people who are having to kind of figure it out. And I’m one of those people that’s one of the figuring it out types."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And while user’s resourcefulness and work ethic is driving her success at the startup, it’s also causing her to feel burned out and to question her ability and desire to lead."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is burnout out but it’s also just, I don’t think…. I either don’t think I’m capable of the job so maybe I don’t have those leadership skills or maybe I’m not quite ready for it that people thought I was. And now that I’m in it, I’m realizing I’m maybe not. I’m very flip floppy about it because I do actually think I’m quite good at it. So now I’m in this weird position of like, this is a lot of work. I don’t think I wanted that bad. And I end up just kind of frustrated with the circle of insanity that I’m constantly caught in to the point now where I’m just thinking, you know what, maybe this just isn’t for me. And maybe I should just go back to more technical work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Burnout will make you question your life choices. And that’s where ELLIE is at the moment. Does she want to be a leader? And if so, how does she lead without constantly feeling burned out? And because we all experience burnout differently, it’s important that I understood what it looks like for her. So that’s where we start the conversation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I want to kind of get a better understanding of what burnout feels like to you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Everybody has different thresholds and experience it differently. In your world like, if I were to sit in your seat, what does it feel like to feel either on the brink of, or actually in burnout mode?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say on the brink of is the constant exhaustion and just feeling like this isn’t worth it. I have a lot of conflicting priorities and I keep asking, okay, what can go? What can I drop? And it’s always been like a, oh yeah, let’s talk about that later type of mentality. And somebody recently gave me feedback to say, “Why don’t you just say no?” Don’t just say, “Yeah, I’ll do this but,” instead just say, “No, I cannot do this.” And then see if that changes the dialogue. So that’s something that I’m new, I’m going to try."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yep. How and how did that resonate with you when somebody gave you that suggestion to just say no?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m reluctant to say no, to be honest. Because I want to demonstrate my value. I’m afraid of losing a little bit of the traction that I’ve made, but at the same time, it’s also what I want, because I feel like it’s too much. So I have this internal conflict with myself right now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I think one of the questions that we need to get clear on is what it is that you want. Because I think this tension that you’re feeling is a bit of kind of going to the ice cream store and you’re only allowed three scoops and you’re like, “No, I want the vanilla and the chocolate and the butter pecan and the chocolate chip and the pistachio. And oh, by the way, I don’t want to gain any weight.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Story of my life. And that is ideal, but that’s also kind of magical thinking. What I want to talk to you about is shifting from magical thinking around the ideal of the way that we would love for things to be versus facing the reality of what they are, and then thinking strategically around how to move through it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think my greatest value is that I can make decisions. I can make judgment calls. I can give people direction if they’re lacking, or if they’re unclear, I am that strong voice in a meeting that says, “We’re here to do this and we’re not leaving until we accomplish this,” and I time box it to make sure it happens. I have vision, I have strategy and I can execute on it. I’m not all talk. I can also deliver on my vision. So that does seem to be where that natural leadership comes in is because a lot of people are maybe reluctant or don’t want that type of responsibility or accountability and I do. So I thought that, that was what I wanted. But if that means nonstop working all day every day, on weekends and feeling exhausted and feeling burned out and not being able to sleep, then to me that’s not what I want."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. It’s important to kind of get out of this cycle of burnout so that you can think through this."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A little more clearly. Okay. Because when we make decisions in distress, in burnout, or as I’ve heard somebody once say, “Never make decisions when you are lonely, angry or hungry.” Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Never, never leads to anything good. And I think the same is from a burnout standpoint. I think we ought to kind of think through a couple of different levels. One is how do you deal with situations when you start feeling frustrated? I think the second piece is this, what does it mean to be a leader? Are your expectations aligned with what it means to be a leader? It requires being adaptable. That’s the part that makes it challenging, right? Is can you pull at different muscles, at different places in time? So on the one hand you said part of what you think is you bring to the table in terms of being valid is your strategic thinking and visionary, and being able to see things and then being able to get it done. And that is one dimension of leadership. There’s another dimension, which is the people side of it, right? In terms of your team and coaching them, et cetera. There’s also this component, which I think is pertinent for you, which is the ability to prioritize and focus. And the question behind that is, am I doing the right things at the right time, to get to where we need to go? And so when somebody told you just say, no. What they’re in essence telling you is you need to create some boundaries around what you’re doing and what’s most important at this time. However, if you are operating from a place of fear of not being able to demonstrate your value, there’s no way you’re going to place any boundaries. Because you’re constantly going to be in this, I need to show my value. I need to show my value. I need to show my value. Where does that come from?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m constantly in fear that if I don’t demonstrate my value, somebody else might come in and take this opportunity away from me. I think in a startup that competitive feeling has actually gotten worse than when I worked at big corporate environments. Change is slow in a big corporation, it’s quick in a startup. So that’s why I’m starting to internalize that of like, maybe this wasn’t the right course of action and is it too late for me to course correct. Should I consider another career? And now in my current role, I’m very conflicted. It’s like my CEO is supportive of down scaling my role, which I want because it’s too much, but at the same time, I don’t want it because I do like the leadership. I do like the responsibility and I do like the accountability. I just wish it didn’t require so many hours of my day. I have entrepreneurial parents. They both started their own business, they were their own bosses. I see this as being an opportunity to flex those entrepreneurial skills that I’ve learned from my parents. I do see myself being a C level in my career. Like as I get older, I see that being something that I want and something that I could do. But I think the path to get there is a lot harder than I thought it would be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So in your current situation, you do have leadership responsibilities, but they feel like a lot, right? It requires a lot more workload than you would like. There’s a question around, how much boundaries you’re placing. And if you were to say no to certain things, would you still be able to perform in your role?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative)."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You have a boss who says, “Hey, I’m willing to take things off your plate,” which would then bring your workload down."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While keeping the title?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The discussions that we’ve had about ways to scale back my role would mean my role would change, which mean a new title."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. In your current role, you’re getting the feedback that no, you have the leadership capabilities that we need and they’re well valued. Am I correct?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that’s fair. So the doubt comes from small off the side comments that I probably take too personally."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative), like what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So for example, I’m working on an internal project to develop some key processes that we’ve been lacking and it’s really going to help solve a lot of the problems that we’ve been having because our departments are just not talking to each other at the right times and setting the right expectations for what each other needs and said CEO has expressed concern slash annoyance that, that’s not going as quickly as it should. And I explicitly asked him about it and he was very careful to ensure that I understood that it wasn’t doubt in me and how I’m leading the project. It was just doubt that it was resulting in the outcomes that he was hoping for. But the damage was already done to my confidence a little bit. So I don’t know if anything, he could have said, would’ve made me feel better. I’d already beaten myself up about it basically."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So, there’s a piece here around extending some empathy to yourself."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you were talking to one of your closest friends and that closest friend was sharing that particular example that they had experienced at work, what would you say to them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably everything you would expect. I would say-"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don’t want you to tell me what you would expect. I really want you for five minutes, just humor me. Right? Make believe I’m that friend. What are you going to tell me? I messed up, I feel like I messed up. I’m supposed to do this project it’s highly valued for the company. And my boss basically said, he’s not happy with the way it’s going, but now he tried to make me feel okay about it and make it feel like it’s not about me, but I know he’s annoyed. And I feel terrible about it, I don’t know if this is for me anymore."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I am everyone’s biggest champion. So I would, and I might get emotional because I realize how stupid that sounds."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s okay, it’s not stupid. It’s real."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I would say that get out of your head. I think you just need to pivot a little bit to understand what they’re asking for. It sounds like you’re all on the right track, but you’re just getting distracted, I think. And he’s giving you the opportunity to get back on track."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So don’t take it so personally."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, I can’t even say it to you any better, to be honest. I can’t."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think a big part of the problem is that, in my personal life, that those seeds of doubt actually do come from my parents. Oh, this is going to be like a counseling session. So it doesn’t matter if the whole world tells me I’m good enough for that, I’m great at what I do. I always have that voice in the back of my head that says, “Yeah, but you didn’t do this that I wanted you to do.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sometimes when I coach the conversation takes a turn where neither I, nor my client expected it to go. And in user’s case this was that moment, where she realized that the seed to her self-doubt was not planted in this role, but rather a long time ago. As a coach, it’s important that I’d be aware of my client’s past experiences, but be very clear that it’s not a counseling or therapy session. My job is not to help them unpack and resolve their past. I approach my clients with compassion and empathy while helping them see what choices they have in front of them, so that they can be strategic on how to move forward to meet their goals. And so with that in mind, we move forward with the conversation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so here’s the thing. We all have background and context that we grew up with. Right? At some point we become adults."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The beautiful thing about becoming an adult, you get to create your own voice, not your parents’ voice, not your teacher’s voice, not your friend’s voice. So the real, we can talk about what’s the right job for you and where do you want to go next and all these external things. And that might help you in the short term."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative)."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they have its place it will give you some short-term relief, just like switching jobs will give you a short-term relief. Getting a pay raise will give you short-term relief."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But based on what you just shared, it’s not going to give you the sustainability of being able to play this leadership game for the long haul."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So what would it look like for you to be your own champion rather than relying on others to give you that voice of confidence?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s a great question. The role that I’m in right now isn’t necessarily the role I went to school for. So I am lacking all lot of experience in how to build this type of department for a startup."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative)."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Cause I always worked at big corporations previously, so they were already built and they were imperfect at the time. So it was easier for me to pick a part the imperfections than to actually build it myself. So one of the things that I had said to my boss was, “If I’m going to do this, I need time. I need to do research. I need to learn.” And I opened the door for the possibility of maybe I’m not the right fit for that. Because in a startup you don’t have time, so I had said, “It might be in your best interest to find somebody who already knows what the formula for success is, and then parachute them in to do it.” And he didn’t want to do that. He said, “Nobody will be able to build it as good as you could because you understand, you have the relationships with the team, you do the work that’s necessary to do it right.” So when I see myself in back to back meetings all day, it just feels like I’m dealing with the tactical day to day stuff. And I’m not getting that mental capacity to actually strategize and do the planning and think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, was there ever a conversation about the things you already have on your plate and how some of those things could be taken off to give your room to do this other thing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So I always, that’s where the feedback about me just saying no came in, was because I was again, I actively worked to take things off my plate and then something always gets added and it’s usually by him, which is the ironic part. So what I ended up deciding last night when I couldn’t sleep is I’m just going to start taking myself out of things. I’m going to decide where my time should be best spent. And I will, as usual, as long as I tell him, this is what I want to do, he’ll probably say okay, sounds good. So I’m not expecting a lot of resistance, but that was how my first attempt or my last attempt to have that conversation went."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And so I think that it’s worth a try, right? It’s worth a try for you to put a stake in the ground rather than it. Because it’s clear he trusts you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it’s clear that based on what you’ve said before, when you give direction, he responds."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like it’s when you sort of give options of well, it could be this, it could be that and you know, he wants all the ice cream."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. You’re absolutely right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And so I think you need to start reining it in and say there are not 24 flavors, there are three flavors pick one or so. And that is creating focus on what’s essential and being a stake in the ground for yourself. And a suggestion that I would have for you is to not place the full responsibility of figuring out, what are the things that you can delegate just on yourself. So it’s actually a great opportunity to engage your team in that conversation to sit down and say, “Hey, so here’s everything that’s going on.” Here’s the highest and best use of my time. Here’s the highest and best use of your time. There are some things that we either need to say no to, and we’re going to purge, right. We’re going to do some spring cleaning and we’re just not going to do anymore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So purge some things and then reallocate others. And oftentimes the things that you can reallocate as a leader to some of your team members while they might be a burden for you, are developmental opportunities for your team members."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So engage them in that discussion. From my standpoint, the way I see it is it’s not a question about, are you a good leader or not? I think you’re really at a place around, how do I scale my leadership up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. It’s like when you play sports, when you’re younger, the fields are smaller, the soccer field is smaller. The tennis court is smaller. The balls are softer, whatever it is you’re playing with. And then as you get older, the court becomes bigger. It’s the same field, same game, but it scales up. And it’s the same with where you are in your career progression, where you are right now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don’t think is necessarily a question of, am I a good leader? I think it’s a question of, am I building the muscles to be able to scale up my leadership? And oh, by the way, this is your first time having to do it, so cut yourself some slack, you’re in learning mode. You are in a situation where it’s clear, you’re getting support from the top and you’re getting support from your team. And so it starts exercising that muscle of being able to ask for help, to being able to ask for support and it not being a sign of weakness."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think you’ve just brought to my attention something that I never really thought about. So I just started to think to myself, like I don’t ever recall a manager asking for help or highlighting themselves as a risk. They do seem to all have this thought, if you will, of knowing everything and having all the answers and being the smartest person in the room. So I think that might be part of the reason why I never think about that. I think that I have to emulate how my previous managers have behaved if I’m going to be that successful too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A large piece of your frustration is you’ve been trying to things the same way that you always have and they don’t fit in this scenario."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, you’re absolutely right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For your current situation. I want you to focus on the things that are within your control. What are the steps that you can take around those different areas that will help in terms of alleviating some of the burnout and frustration that you’re feeling particularly around workload. So can you think of a time either recently or something that you have coming up that might be challenging where you’re going to focus more around or where it would’ve been held helpful to focus more on what’s within your control?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of the things that I’ve come to my manager about… Addressed my concern. I feel like I knew if I was just honest with him that he probably already knew or had suspicions about a lot of the issues or the concerns that I had, but he just didn’t have anybody telling him. And people are not in the habit of going to their leaders with problems or bad news. So sometimes those conversations can be really hard to have knowing that this was not something I was comfortable doing, but knowing it was something I had to do, because I knew that if I did air out the dirty laundry, that it would bring change much needed change. It’s like the option that I had been choosing to that point was feeling like there was nothing I could do to change the way things were and feeling like there was no point in making noise about it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It would just make me seem like I was complaining or I was unhappy. And so that’s why I had a lot of stress about it because I was trying to tell myself, “No, this is, you need to do this. This is the right thing to do. He will listen. He will understand.” Yeah, sure enough at the end of the meeting, he was like, “Thank you.” He was like, “Thank you so much for telling me.” He’s like, “I knew everything that you told me, but I had no confirmation.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think a big part of the work for you is recognizing when how you’re feeling, when you’re staying up at night, when you have that anxiety or whatnot, it’s like, what is coming at me that is changing or making me sway one way or the other versus what is within me? What is my voice saying? Let me hear myself. What are my options? The technical, the big leadership word of using this is, do you have agency? Meaning the wherewithal within to say, all right, what’s within my control. What actions can I take? Seeing all that and then making a decision."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I often think about this. I feel like the answers are there. I just don’t know. I just don’t have the experience. I feel like I missed a class in school or something about how to deal with these type of challenges. And I’ll have a new Rolodex of information that I can pull from."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that’s why, when you said just now, I’m like, is there a course I can take to do that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Like here’s the thing, right? I have good news and bad news. The good news is that at every stage in your career, in your life, there are different things to learn. The bad news is I don’t think its bad news, I actually, but you might hear it as bad news is I think anyone who is ever to claim that they have learned everything that there is to be a leader is falling short in some way or another, because leadership is a continue, it’s like life. It is a continuous journey of learning. Why?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because being a leader is the ability to deal with the complexity of what lies in front of us and ahead of us. Within all of the complexity that you’re dealing with, the complexity of humans, the complexity of technology, the complexity of the world, the complexity of pandemics and politics and da-da. So it requires an increased capacity to deal with complexity. Well, if that complexity is always changing, does not mean that we are also required to continue learning."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you can read as much as you want. And what I would suggest is that it doesn’t end. You become a student of leadership."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Rather than a achiever of leadership, two different things, two different ways of being a leader."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And that, that’s where we kind of actually get to the essence of being a leader rather than just a title of being a leader. Like many high achievers, user wants to sure fire recipe to lead. But what she doesn’t realize is that leadership is a nuanced, multidimensional pursuit. On the one hand, there’s the external dimension, the tactical, the technical skills we can learn. It’s what we often refer to as the outer game of leadership, how we do things. But the other side of leadership is the inner game. It’s what values we hold as leaders, what beliefs we bring about ourselves, about other people, how we think through things. That’s the inner game. And user, like many of us has spent a lot of time on the external, trying to fix things by upping her skills, which is all good and very necessary, but now she’s hit a wall and she realizes that she needs to balance it out by also doing the internal work of how she leads and a big piece of this hinges on her ability to deal with her frustration and burnout more constructively than she has in the past. So we’ll pick back up at the point where we look at strategies she can use to face those moments. There’s something I want to introduce to you based on this notion of feeling stressed out and feeling frustrated, because as I said before, we all get stressed out and get frustrated and I think it’s important that (a) you accept that, but (b) have a framework on how to deal with that. Since it seems to be something that’s coming up for you quite a bit."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the first is to recognize kind of the cycle you’re in. So again, when thinking about what you’ve shared with me, I think about it in terms of kind of like this burnout cycle or frustration cycle. So you have an expectation around what needs to happen. The expectation either it gets met or doesn’t get met. If it gets met, then it makes you happy and you’re good, right. If it doesn’t get met, then it leads to frustration. If the frustration isn’t resolved in some way, it leads to burnout. That’s one cycle and it’s a vicious loop."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A different loop could be… Will you tell me, like what could a different loop look like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I guess based on what you described, when I sense that I’m getting frustrated, altering my outlook to be, this is a challenge, how do I learn from this? What is it about a situation that I’m in that is actually triggering the frustration? And is it something within my control that I can alter to reduce the impact of said frustration, perhaps. So recognizing that this is frustration would be first, because it, you have to kind of get ahead of it before it gets to the point of wanting to quit or retreat or whatever that looks like. Identifying what’s the cause of it or at least what’s the contributor to it. It might just be the straw that broke the camel’s back and not necessarily the problem just so much as the trigger."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you already are aware of because I asked you, what does it feel like when you start getting frustrated? So look out for those signals."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I think if I were to summarize what you said, I think there are a couple of steps you can take when you hit those situations. So step one is, identify what you’re struggling with. The second is exactly what you said, what’s in your control role versus what’s outside of your control, so that you can focus on what’s within your control. It doesn’t mean that the things outside of your control don’t exist, but you’re just going to put them to the side."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the midst of this struggle in the midst of what’s challenging yourself. This one is very important for you is what are you telling yourself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "About the situation and about yourself? And is what you’re telling yourself, serving you? What would you tell a good friend of yours right now? Same exercise we work through earlier, right? So that you can change or shift, not even change, shift that inner dialogue to one, that’s actually going to be help bring you in this process rather than working against you. So identify the situation. What are you telling yourself? What’s within your control? What’s out of your control? And once you figure that out, then you can go to, okay, so what choices do I have in front of me? Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative)."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What choices do I have? What can I say yes or no to? Where can I ask for help? What can I start, stop, continue? Ask yourself what choices do I have? And then you can make a decision around, out of all the choices I have in front of me, which one, which ones are most aligned with what I need and what the organization need or whatever the goal is. Why don’t we spend a little bit of time with you articulating what your key takeaways are from this conversation. So if you had two or three main takeaways that you’re walking away with, what would they be for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the exercise of focusing on what I control is going to be really important. And in the spirit of beating myself up all the time, it is something that I always give feedback to other people too, is why are you stressing about these things that are out of your control that’s such a waste of your energy. I need to listen to my own advice, which is… It’s so common sense and then that’s the second activity is I need to talk myself off the ledge that I constantly put myself on and I need to be my biggest fan, because like I said I don’t know why that is. Like I constantly uplift the people in my team and take them out of their own self-doubt and tell them how great they are and what their strengths are and what I see in them. And I try to encourage them and motivate them. And yet I don’t do it for myself. So I think that is a really good exercise that I’m going to take away like immediately is if I was my own friend, what would I tell myself? I think that’s a really good exercise because as soon as you said it, I was like dammit it, you got me. As I’m talking to you on the screen, on my other screen, I am looking at my calendar. I always have it open. And I am immediately excited to start clearing these back to back meetings, getting myself out of more activities, empowering my team. I loved your idea about coming to my team with all the things that I’m working on and just see if anybody volunteers for anything. I love that idea because not only do I know that they will, but I think that they’ll be excited to help me. So I think that everyone will be excited to not be met with me saying, “Oh, I don’t know. I’ll have to think about that,” instead I’ll be asking them, well, here’s everything that’s on my plate. What would you like to take? So I’m most excited after this meeting to start seeing if I can clear my calendar, that alone would be a huge one for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Well listen-"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And keeping it clear, [crosstalk 00:35:06] and not letting it get replaced."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Keeping it clear. And so that’s the part, right? That’s the part is making sure that there’s follow through and that you keep it sustainable. And if what it means is maybe it’s every month putting in your calendar that you have to do a calendar purging or every quarter. That will be a reminder that you have to do that. So I’m excited for you. So thank you. I really want to thank you for sharing and allowing me to be part of your process today."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you so much. I think I really needed this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user left our coaching conversation with some actions to take that would help her deal with burnout. Prioritizing with her boss, delegating to her team and being clearer about the boundaries she needs to effectively do her job. She also left with a greater understanding that scaling up in leadership doesn’t always have to lead to burnout, but only if you have the skills to respond constructively, when you start feeling overwhelmed and take action on things that are within your control. And finally, user gained a deeper and perhaps newfound appreciation that she is human something high achievers often forget. And that by having more empathy, understanding and compassion for herself, it will help her lead more effectively and sustainably going forward. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe, assistant producer, Liz Sanchez, music composer, Brian Campbell, and the entire team at HBR, much gratitude to the leaders who joined me in these coaching conversations. And to you, our listeners who share in their journeys, if you are dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show, apply@coachingrealleaders.com. And of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward, share it with your friends. Subscribe, leave a review. From a HBR Presents, this is coach AI."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "He’s a senior-level executive with a goal to make it to the C-suite. While he’s come close, he’s been turned down and is not sure why. Host Muriel Wilkins helps this leader plan his next moves."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone who we’ll call user to protect his confidentiality. He’s achieved a lot in his career and is now at the executive VP level at his company. His aspiration is to make it to the C-suite and he’s been working hard to do so."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ve tried for many C-level positions. It seems that I always get through to the finals, but I never get the final decision to take on the brass ring or take on that job. And I was just wanting to understand, maybe there are things that I’m doing or saying, or don’t know that led to that. I’ve had just a couple recently that really I thought were just fantastic. They loved my background, loved the interviews, had several interviews over several months and then no opportunity. “Sorry, we’re going to go another way. We think your background’s outstanding. We think you did an outstanding job with your interviews. However, we don’t feel that you will be happy with us.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user has faced this situation several times, where he gets close to getting the C-suite role, but then doesn’t. As some who has had a longstanding, successful corporate career, he finds himself questioning what exactly is going wrong. I should also mention that user is black, which adds a nuanced layer to his experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You start to scratch your head and say, “What am I doing wrong? Is it something that I’m doing? Is it something that I need to look at and do a hard look in the mirror and say, ‘Maybe there’s something I can do better.’ I’m all about being better. And I think I can do that. It’s not that I deserve it, I want to prove that I can do it. And I believe I can."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user is wondering, why not me? When it comes to these CEO roles that he’s running for, will he ever get to the goal? I start by asking him about the secret sauce that he thinks has made him successful so far."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say the secret sauce is very strong in my knowledge of the industries that I’m in, but more importantly, personality. I would say the experience I’ve had with good listening and developmental skills of my team members has been very successful for myself. I’ve been labeled as a guy that can take what many people in the industries will throw away as employees that have bad reputations in terms of work performance. And based on my skill set, turn them around and they are very successful and they become A players. And I’m very proud of that. And then in the many industries that I’ve been in over the years, I’ve been able to attract many people in my network to continue to work with me, which is also plus."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And so, I mean, that’s great that you’re able to turn around poor performers to A players. Not a lot of people are able to do that. And what drives you? Like, what gets you going every day in terms of your role?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I am goal-oriented. So the goal and the objective of achieving something that is impossible always has been something that has motivated me to achieve and achieve great things. So in all the aspects of the areas I’ve been in, it’s always been in areas where I’m underrated or underestimated. And that to me is a motivator where I always have come out on top and delivered more are than expected."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So I’d love to understand what challenges you’re facing right now and why we’re having this conversation. What brings you here today?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I tell you, I am trying to get to that next level of C-level in the executive ranks. And it’s been like a glass ceiling for me. I have not been able to achieve that even though I’ve had tremendous success. And I am challenged to know if it’s relative to my age or my race or something there other, because I’ve had roadblocks in both of those where I’ve achieved, I’ve hit all my numbers, I’ve delivered in every aspect that was expected. And, like we just talked about develop the resources, but never the prize. So it’s been a challenge for a number of years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative). And is that challenge internal to the organization that you’re in now? Or have you explored external opportunities as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s happened internal, but it’s been more external when I’ve been exploring other external opportunities as well. I’m also exploring opportunities outside of corporate America where maybe it’s time to take the tremendous skill set that I have and do something on my own and explore that. So these pitfalls and roadblocks that I’ve highlighted, I make them lemonade basically, I take them and turn them around and produce something that is my own."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, I always like to think about what the alternative scenario is, right? So, particularly for those of us who are fixated on the goal, myself included, sometimes it’s helpful to think about, well what happens if the goal doesn’t come to be? Right? And so if you didn’t get the C-suite and this is not to sound pessimistic, again, just curious. If you didn’t get that C-suite position, what would happen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would probably definitely take another road. I’m at a point in my life where based on young adults in my household with my children, they have opened my eyes to a lot of things that as my age, where I was very quiet upon in terms of my personal thoughts or personal feelings, the generation today is pretty vocal on those things that make them interesting, make them successful, their concerns. And then in my generation, those are things that was never communicated. I don’t think many people even cared, it was more of a suck it up and figure it out and go make it happen. And in many cases I did that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay, got it. So our children often teach us the greatest lessons. Like, what is it that you’re seeing in them in terms of what they’re able to communicate that you felt you did not voice as you went through your own career journey?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would tell you their confidence of being vulnerable, their confidence of their ability to voice their opinion and not look at it as a weakness, but a strength to overcome and become stronger with a community, with others helping along the way. When I grew up, and even in this current state, I’m less inclined because of trust issues. Because I would see those things being used against me more than helping me. And in the environment… Oh, if you’re talking about you’re having a challenge in achieving a goal in an evaluation period, it could be thrown back at you that that challenge was highlighted as a weakness and they use it against you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ve seen it happen many times in evaluations of others, or the fact that you don’t feel you have the strength or the capability to complete a goal, but you need help. That can be thrown in your face as well. Even though I think all of us at some point need help to move forward, need help to achieve something, need help to become who you want to be. No one’s [inaudible 00:08:34]. But I think in the world that I’ve been in as a black man, a lot of those things were never offered to me more as they were to my contemporaries. They were offered only as, lack for better word, never stated, but just led to that lack of trust where I would want to keep that to myself, work through that and not seek the help."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I’m getting the sense, user, and correct me if I’m wrong, that you really are sort of a pull it up by the bootstraps, as we say, type of guy in terms of how you manage your career."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. What I’m also hearing is that the support or hope was not offered, and as a result of it not being offered, you did not feel in a position like you could ask."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s correct. And I’ve had examples where others, in my purview, had and I saw the consequences."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative). All right. And those others, were they folks who also were black males or black women? Or were they just in general, peers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Peers of color."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Peers of color. Okay. So very specific-"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Men and women."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative). Very specific in terms of the experience that you have. And I think that’s important to flush out because that’s the context that we’re operating from, right? It is really about what is your experience as a black man through the corporate ladder versus just generally as an executive, right? That there are certain things you’ve experienced that others might not have. And how do you deal with that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I will tell you one thing that challenges our own social biases, and it’s become even more prevalent today working with certain peers and certain companies that they already come into the workplace with, and that has been a noticeable challenge. I’ve always guarded, protected my workforce and abdicate for them in those social biases, but at the same time, I see them in play many times for whatever reason. And I’m a big abdicate to break those."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Got it. So I’d like to fast forward to current where we are today, right? And going back to the original question you had, which is I’m ready for the next level, which is at the C-suite, I’m putting myself forward for those roles, but I’m not getting them. And the question is why. Is it because of your race or age or because of experience or some other factors? Who knows what they are. So I’m wondering, could you share with me some of the experiences you’ve had in terms of getting to that place where you’re putting yourself forward in an opportunity and getting the role, like what happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, sure. I’d be glad to. I had an experience outside of my current role right now, senior leader position, went through all of the layers of interviews with all of the executive leadership and then had interviews with board members, because the role would report up through not only the CEO, but also to some of the relative board members. Had those interviews all with flying colors, plus, plus, plus. A, We’d like to have this guy. Come to my last interview, had a video conference. I would tell you at sometimes, and you may get a chuckle, people when they see you, they jump or they recognize, because when we all talk to others without video, we have an impression of what they may look like and sound like. And I don’t think she recognized me for who I was. I think that startled her because it was very noticeable to me. And then she-"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As a black man?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As a black man. Right? And I don’t think that came up in any of the conversations with the other executives, of course. And we proceeded to not really talk about the job, but all the things about, social things relative to being on site, making sure that I understood that the requirements were X and Y, are you sure that you can fulfill these obligations? And I’m like, I’m wondering to myself, obviously you’ve had these conversations. We’ve been going with these interviews over three and a half months. None of this should be new to you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We ended the conversation where I did answer all her questions. And then my next comment back in about a week was, “You’re outstanding. We love your background, but we think you’ll be disruptive to our environment because of all the things that you’ll want to change because of your tremendous skill set. And we’re just not ready for that. And for that reason, we’re going to have to say, you’re not a good fit, but we wish you the best. And if something comes up where we’re ready for that, we’ll give you a call.” That was the gist of that conversation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so how did that land with you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I wanted to call immediately and find out more, challenging myself to ask so I could get better, understand why they made that choice, and why do they feel that my ability to be a change agent is disruptive, would be disruptive. I never gave any indication I would be disruptive, I never gave an indication that the skill sets that I do and work with every day lead that way. I’m more of a collaborator. I’m more of a team builder. I’m more of making sure the organization social norms and goals are met. I do think out of the box, but I would tell you what, I’m quite considerate in wanting to make sure that I achieve the things within the right parameters of the company. And everything I’d done led to that and blew away the people in that regard. And they made comment to that. So I was just shocked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative) Okay. And so did you ask? Did you call and follow up and say, “Hey, I have a couple questions.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I still did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So I’m like fascinated now, right? Like, and so what happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know what? I called, and it’s just the funniest thing and the most frustrating thing, I called the CEO and he said, “I can’t give you an answer other than it’s just not right for us.” And I said, “Well, can you expound on what’s right for you? So I can become a better individual in understanding how I could tell my interviews for the future. What was wrong in what I did?” No answer. So it was really no big answer, right? And that’s been the case in about three, I’ve had three like this, where I am a finalist or I am the finalist and they either go a different way or they say you’re not a good fit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there’s sort of a pattern or you’re thinking it might be a pattern in terms of what your experience is. So that’s a very logical, up in our head way of thinking about it. And so I want to drop it down a little bit and ask you, what is your gut telling you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good question. In that respect, my gut was telling me it was definitely social. It wasn’t professional. My gut also told me that there is an internal bias that is there. So maybe it’s smart for me not to be there, because I would be a disruptor, and I would challenge the status quo in that regard because that’s not who we are and not who I am, okay? My gut also told me that, why would I want to work for a company that is not honest, but propagating something that is not fair and truthful? But I didn’t go down that road. I’m too strong for that. But I am very educated and open to logical and constructive criticism. I always have been. But in this case it was very generic and really nothing to say that I had an issue, or if, let’s put it this way, they were not willing to share. So, and in my case, I’m saying, how can I be critical of myself when I didn’t get anything to understand, but I reflect on it? So I think the things I thought that I just shared with you, but internal I’m saying, “Okay, I’m not going to change how I am. I’m not going to change what I look like, but at the same time, maybe I need to look at areas that are more open and receptive to me.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As I am."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you are. Exactly. As you are. As you stated, you’re extremely goal-oriented, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I could imagine that when there’s no explanation as to why you can’t reach the goal, it can make you feel a particular way."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you want to look inward. And first of all, always look at those things that are, what you believe. We all have them in our own back mind or our minds as shortcomings, right? Why not? Why wasn’t I successful? If you can pin it on something, it’ll just leave you hanging. I really dislike that a lot, because to say you’re not a good fit for us, there are legitimate reasons they don’t want to say. You know that, we all know that. Many times I’ve had interviews with candidates, I’m very clear on the reasons why we can’t select them or couldn’t select them. Or, “Here are the things that we would recommend that you build your resume on. Here are the things that you should go back and get some training in.” To give some tangible evidence of why is very helpful. When you don’t have that, you start to internalize and look inward, I think. And then in my case, I did. But at the same time, I got to keep moving forward."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "RANDY is someone who seems to be open to change, to learning more. He’s very goal-oriented. And so it can be very frustrating to get so close to the C-suite that he can touch it, only to be told no with little information. As someone who’s used to constantly working on himself to prove he can meet expectations, this situation leaves RANDY in a conundrum and digging for the why. Is it me that’s the issue? Or is it them? And while trying to understand the why, it’s hopeful in many cases, at times, it can lead to constant back and forth internal debate that leads nowhere. So to help RANDY move forward, I ask him to consider what he could do, even if he doesn’t know the exact answer to his question of why he’s not getting the role. So it’s interesting to me that you said in absence of the why, you internalize it. And so I’d like to think about what your other options are in absence of the why, in terms of how you respond to situations when the why is not clear."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did internalize it. The why is to go beyond myself and start reading more. I start looking at skill set analysis more. I start looking at my personality and my level of communication. I start doing analysis on, I don’t think my skill sets of challenge, but maybe how I communicate, how I answer questions, how I refrain to responses, maybe of some question. Don’t know. But I looked at all those things, I personally said no to all of those things, they weren’t a problem, and then you start evaluating other things, such as the things I talked about, social biases or things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. I mean, look, here’s the thing, right? There will be situations where there is no clear why. And I think that part of it for you is, as you’re doing right now, seeing that there’s many paths to responding to when there’s no why. It doesn’t always have to be about, there’s a shortcoming in me. Yes, that could be a starting point, and you’ve got to also look at it in the context of everything else, which is the external piece, right? So I think that’s really important because even as you move forward, regardless of what you do, when there is ambiguity as to why something is happening, you can try to get it as much as you can, but you might hit a wall where your endeavor to figure out the why is actually not helpful. And the frustration that you feel is, I just want to pinpoint exactly what directed at. You’re frustrated about filling the blank."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When you try out for a role and you have several interviews and you have several candidates that fall to the wayside` and you’re still the last one, all of these things were done. And then you get to this end state that happened. But I’ve had others the same way. So I’m just questioning that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So the frustration is about doing everything that you possibly, in your mind, you possibly can do."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then getting to a place where it feels like the decision is based on something that’s out of your control."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so user, like over the span of your lifetime, how have you dealt with, and it doesn’t have to be professional. Like, I’m just curious like, how have you dealt with situations where you are not in control?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it goes without saying in my background, I’m a religious person. So we pray, of course, I’m very prayerful. But at the same time I, like I said, I look for other opportunities and I keep pushing. So those are things that keep me going. Plus I have a very successful family where we do a lot of things for others. That also is something that’s outside of this world. And let’s be clear, I don’t have a bad role right now as an EVP. I just want more."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You want more. And look, there’s nothing wrong with that, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As long as it’s for the right reason."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you can only know what that reason is, okay? No judgment on my end as to why somebody wants to get to that next level. What’s interesting to me is that you, well, let me back up a little bit. Like, I don’t have a crystal ball to be able to say whether here nor there, why you didn’t get those roles, right? Like, I’m not talking to those people, so I don’t know. But I also know that yeah, does bias exist? Absolutely it exists, right? Now whether that’s the reason or not, I don’t know. I’m not in a position to say, “Hey, here were the skills or the communication factors or all the things that you could possibly work on.” So I’d be a fool to sit here and say, “Oh, well, here are the attributes that I think you’re missing.” What I can do is we can work through how you approach that situation and how you’re thinking about the pattern that you’ve identified in terms of not getting the roles that you put yourself forward with. And then based on that, determine for you, what do you want to do with it? Right? One of the things that’s striking to me is that it sounds like, even up until recently with the interviews that you had, but throughout your career, you have looked for, what do I need to do in order for me, me meaning user, to work out for you? You being the organization, the people. So in a way, you’ve adapted yourself to fit whatever the need was, whether it be organizationally, personally, whatever it might be, right? And that has really been your kind of a trademark of being able to succeed and move up the ladder. And I guess my question is, at what point do you start asking what works for me versus what works for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s good. Can you help me a little bit more in terms of when you say me versus you? I kind of blend them together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. What works for user? What works for user? Yeah. I mean, so there you go. You said you blend them together, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So before we even dig into that, the fact that you’re blending them together in terms of what works for the other, versus what works for user means that you are making your success contingent on the other, rather than grounded in what it is that works for user, what works for you. And I’m not saying you have to ignore environment and ignore context. Clearly, you have to do that. Like, you go work for a company, you figure out what’s going to work and you try to make it work. The question is at what cost."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the cost usually is a cost of self. And so what I’m asking you is you have spent so much of your career figuring out what you need to do to be successful in these other realms, right? By other people’s definitions, what does it mean to be successful for you and what environment works for you? So I’m flipping the question."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know, and I like it. You’re right. I’ve always blended the two to be more of a chameleon instead of adjusting to what I know is right. Now, I’m an abdicate for what is right for me, but more in the context of navigating in the company in which I’m in, versus what’s true to me as a person. And that’s very telling because, and again, age context, I never looked at it that way until kind of the fog has been lifted and I can see a little clearer now. So to your point, yeah. What’s good for me may not be any of these companies, more and more I think about it. And as you and I have talked here, maybe the better thing for me is, is to move on to something where I can be that change agent myself, I can drive the right expectations that I feel are pertinent for me, make sure others that I see are under represented or don’t have that voice have it, and be all those things that are important for me to others, but also keeping myself focused on those things that are important."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. I mean, look-"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For me. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. So you reach a point where as talented as a chameleon one can be, there’s some things you can’t chameleonize away. I don’t even think that’s a word, but I’m going to make believe it is, right? Like, you can’t. And so it is what it is. And I think a part of this process is you seeing things clearly for what they are and operating from that place, rather than from a place of what it should be, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The frustration comes from what it should be. The frustration comes from that. It comes from-"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right? It comes from, I should get candid feedback. We should get candid feedback on why we’re not getting the role. There should not be ageism or racism or any types of bias in the hiring process. I should be able to get to that next level based on my track record and that experience, right? And listen, I’m all for, if all those things deem themselves to be true in my lifetime and your lifetime, I will be a happy camper. And we have to see things for what they are today in your situation, and then make choices for you based on the reality of what’s happening. And the reality is you’re not getting those roles. So when we start thinking about it more in the context of, what works for user? Specifically, what type of environment or company. I know part of it is you might go on your own, but let’s say it was to go into a company where you’re actually interviewing, what type of company would you be looking for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it’s interesting you brought that up. I’m starting to look at companies that have a social platform, companies that have a vast… The board of directors and the staff is a diverse staff, diverse board, which gives me some indication that they have some of these things that we’re talking about. They are working through and working on, not saying that that’s the case, but at least that’s an indication that they have some openness to a number of different personalities, as well as people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then I’m looking for companies that have growth and history of growth in the areas that we’ve talked about, that allow that transparency and have no fear factor in that. And then I’ve also reached out to leaders in certain companies, I’ve had deep conversations on to get some better feel for if this is the area I want to work in and I’ve started to apply for some of those areas. Whereas before, I would tell you, I was not as selective. I was selective once the knock came on my door versus me knocking on the door myself. That’s one of the things I’ve turned around as well. So I’m working on my brand, which would be all about me. And I’m working for those companies that I feel will support my brand versus the other way around. So-"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Versus the other way around. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, again, like your superpower has been, up until now, your superpower has been looking at yourself internally and saying, “Where am I missing the mark? And let me get stronger.” Right? And without necessarily looking outwards at the same time and saying, “Well, where’s the company missing the mark?” Right? “And is that a place that I want to be?” So as you said, be as selective with the environment that you’re in, or be as critical of the environment that you’re in as you’re doing your due diligence, as critical as you’re being for yourself when you’re being introspective and reflective and figuring out what you need to do."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I agree. I think that approach is the better and it supports me doing the homework, doing the research and focusing on those things that I can bring to the table versus what the reverse of that is. So for me, that makes a heck of a lot of sense."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And look, here’s the thing, I think that what you’re facing is quite frankly choosing to be an outlier. And you don’t have to make that choice, right? You could say, “Hey, you know what? I’m done.” Like, “I’ve reached a certain age, I’m not going to change my skin color, I’m out.” Right? And that’s a choice. That’s a choice. And the choice becomes, if you choose the outlier choice, it really becomes, do you have the wherewithal to really be cultivating your career against what is still the norm? Okay? Do you have the wherewithal? And then the second question becomes, what’s the purpose behind making that choice? So if you think about… I mean, look, we can look at the data. There are not a tremendous amount of black individuals in the C-suite. Doesn’t mean it’s impossible, but I’m sure it’s not an easy path, and it is still an outlier. So for you, if you continue to choose that path, even if it’s in other types of organizations, I want to understand, or I want you to understand really clearly, what is the purpose behind you continuing to pursue that path?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s pause here. His whole career, user has followed the work twice as hard mantra that so many underrepresented professionals use to prove that they are deserving of the role that they’re in. But that’s not working for him anymore. And now he’s considering opting out of the corporate path altogether and venturing out on his own. Now, whether user continues to look for C-suite roles at organizations or decides to take another road, it’s important for him to recognize that it’s a choice he’s making and it’s his choice. And he has to have clarity as to why he’s choosing a certain path. So we pick up the conversation where he reflects on just that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I would tell you this, it is my choice, and I am deserving of those things that I’ve worked so hard for, but I have to earn them just like anyone else. And I choose that because that’s what I want to do. My biggest obstacle is fear, fear of failure. When it’s all on me, that is the biggest concern I have, if you look at something from an entrepreneurial standpoint. So for me, it’s to overcome that, systematically make sure I have countermeasures in place to offset those things that I know of, but understand that it’s okay to not have all the answers."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I come from a generation if you didn’t have the answer, stay with a sure thing. And when you stay with a sure thing, there’s things that you may not be sure of and fearful of. And when you go out on your own, that drives into those unsure things that lead to some areas of fear and insecurity that I’ve got to face. And so I think that’s my biggest obstacle. The skills are there, the knowledge is there, the contacts are there, the ability to drive what I need to do I think is there, it’s that what I just mentioned, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So fear of failure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fear of failure. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of being out there on your own."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of being out there on my own."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And yet when I asked you about, or I ran by you the notion, confirmed the notion that, I think what I said is, “Hey, user, you strike me as the type of guy that like your whole career, you were sort of a pull it up by the bootstraps.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. Yep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And where did that get you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m bumping my head every day and dealing with things that… I’m very successful, but not to the level I want to be. I want to go beyond where I’m at and I’m not getting there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. It feels like, because you said you didn’t ask for help, you didn’t get the support, it feels like you have been on your own already."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I tell you what, life is interesting. I’m still going down the path, and I don’t want to sound like I’m going in the circle, but I’ve gone down the path of moving in the area of abdicating for me, to your point, and being of, from an old school, never giving up on a sure thing. I just mentioned that too. Taking risk means it’s all on you. So I’m about there mentally."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. But so user, I just want to mirror, I’m going to be a little more direct, right? You’re saying that your block is, don’t give up a sure thing, fear of being out there on your own. And what I’m saying is, everything I’ve heard you say about how you have led your career so far, there has not been a sure thing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you have been out there on your own. So what’s the difference? Why are you fearing something that you’ve already done?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess the difference is, when you work for a company, you have a paycheck, you have insurance, you have all the things that are the trappings of the things that you need in your day-to-day life, right? When you’re on your own, those things… And to your point, I see your point. They’re still on you, but that has been my roadblock. I was just being transparent and honest. I think I’ve come to a point where those are not as big a concerns as they were. Financially, I think I am at a position where I don’t have to be fearful of those things, but I’m also of the mindset that you should always be mindful of those stakes. So save, save, save, plan, plan, plan, have a nest egg for a contingency, always, has always been my mindset. So even though I hear you and I understand what you’re saying and you’re absolutely correct, in my environment, if I didn’t have the ability to pull myself up and always do that, I wouldn’t be considered a survivor. Okay? So in that case, looking outside of a company which gives you some level of confidence, which is really none, you’re correct. I’m beyond that paradigm. That’s a paradigm in my mind. And it’s finally one that I can face openly and even say that I have that fear because in one, I’m not really open to telling my fears either publicly or my concerns, because it’s also looked at as a form of weakness. If you got to look at it from my point of view, being a black male. So the fact that I’m going to talk openly about that, I’m embracing it and I’m looking for a way to overcome that despite the fact that the history has supported that. If that makes sense, what I’m saying."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It makes a ton of sense, right? And I think that… Look the fear, and I’m using quotations, like the fear that you have is not an uncommon one, it’s not an uncommon one. This notion of what is the safe choice? Where do I need security? Which is what I hear you saying is there’s a certain level of security that you have felt you needed. And that security came in the form of compensation and benefits and all the things to make sure that you could survive at the lower levels of Maslow’s hierarchy, right? Okay? Now here’s the thing, as we had advance in leadership and in life, our needs change, at least those who mature recognize that their needs change, right? And if you keep on hanging on to making sure that the things that you needed to be stable 10 years ago are still the things that you sort of equate your success with today or what you need to be stable, those are the actual things that might hold you back instead of propel you forward."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so the question becomes, because I’m not going to… Look, everybody needs some form of stability in their life, right? I’m not an advocate of like, just go buck wild and do whatever you want. But my question is, what are the things, or what are the areas that you actually need some security and stability in today, versus what you felt you have needed all along?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most of them, when you put it that way, I already have. The ones that we talked through, the risk of shelter, the risk of healthcare, the risk, there’s always risk. Something catastrophic could wipe anyone out, as you put it, the lower level of hierarchy. But I mean, at the same time, I don’t feel I have those concerns. Like I said, there’s been plenty of contingencies put aside to secure those things. So as I have matured in this process of this role we’re talking and we’re talking today, I see those as futile reasons that don’t matter anymore, whereas they did at one point. Conversation has a way of opening your eyes if you’re willing to receive. And that’s some of the beauty of this conversation here. And I see that, I think you’re getting me closer to that. And for me, sure, there’s risk, there’s risk on anything you do. But the risks are, I think in my case would be smart, calculated ones, and not like I said, there are going to be some things that I’m unaware of that I would have to plan for or react to, but I do that today. I just have an umbrella that has bigger purse strings, that if you make a mistake, you can offset it, right? But I haven’t done that in my life at all. I’ve not made those kind of mistakes. So I think I’m a sure bet for myself. It’s just getting over that hurdle that you’re a sure bet for yourself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That you’re a sure bet. Exactly. And listen, you’re the only one who can jump that hurdle."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what’s on the other side of that hurdle is what matters most to you. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Exactly what you just said, right? Like, what matters to you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And what matters most to me is leaving a legacy, which I’m doing every day in all the things that we’re attributed or associated with in terms of outside of the workplace, but even a more strong legacy for my family in terms of independence, where they don’t have to rely on someone else to validate or substantiate who they are and what they’re all about. And for me, that’s even more important. Let’s talk about that, right? And those are the things that I really ruminate on. So those are more important to me than anything right now. And I think that’s something that’s also in my purview."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As we end our coaching conversation, user sees that the real question is not about why he can��t get that next C-suite level role, but more about how he can ensure his efforts are putting him closer to his ultimate goal, which is to leave a longstanding legacy. This is a different place than where he started and helps him operate with more agency in making his career choices. When he starts framing his career path from a place of self-defined purpose, rather than solely based on whether he’s accepted by others, he’s able to see more clearly what he can do to move forward and to take action in a way that’s right for him. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe, music composer, Brian Campbell, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. If you are dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com, and you can find me on LinkedIn, on Twitter, @MurielMWilkins or on Instagram @CoachMurielWilkins. If you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward, share it with your friends, subscribe, leave a review. From HBR Presents, this is coach AI."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "No matter how driven and capable you are, it’s easy to feel overwhelmed by a promotion and a new seat at the table. Host Muriel Wilkins speaks with a newly promoted leader who wants to make sure she’s as effective at this new level as she has been in past roles."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call user to maintain her confidentiality. She’s had a number of phases in her career as a human resources professional. Recently she’s taken on a new role as vice president for global human resources at a large company. user takes a very outcomes driven approach to her leadership."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I see as my primary responsibilities proactively highlighting the risks, highlighting the opportunities and holding the mirror up to leadership to say, this is how what you’re doing, how you’re leading is landing in the organization. I do think that sometimes because I’m not seeing the change in leaders that I would expect that sometimes I take on that responsibility to actually see change come out of it where I like to see change. I like to see something happen as a result of the effort. I like execution. I like seeing the outcomes of all of the work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While user’s past successes are what have led her to land this VP position, she’s feeling unsure about whether she’s being effective in her leadership role."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m at that point of being sure of myself, right? So how am I living up to this next level? Because what got you here won’t keep you here, right? I have that playing in my head. Then trying to figure out this business. It’s moving so fast."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I start by asking her to reflect on her career this far. To tell me her career story as though it were chapters in a book."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say the first chapter is really, I’ll call it consulting. That’s where I really got excited about my career as a junior consultant coming in and doing work around global human resource solutions and getting an opportunity to see human resources delivered in such a different way. It was a really refreshing step away from the more traditional work streams that you hear about around human resources. It was just a very different paradigm shift for me I would say. In that chapter, I would title it enlightenment if I could, right? Because it was opening this door that I knew nothing about. It just created all kinds of opportunities for me. What it did was expose me to the conversation that leaders have and equipped me with the language to use with those leaders. That’s the professional piece. The personal piece of enlightenment that came during that time was my husband and I meeting. We got married and a year later we were expecting triplets. There was just a lot that I learned about myself during that time. It had to do with not being afraid. Then I would say the second chapter, I would title it navigating the terrain. It became things changing so fast and with the children growing so fast. That having that moment where I say, am I energized by this work? Can I do both? That was a really rough period because there were times where the balance was off. It just became clear to me that I am the type of person that gets energy from what I do. That was the point where I had to learn a bit about how I can get fulfilled in different ways. I would say my third chapter is called enjoying the view. After being in that space learning about myself and then professionally, it put me at the place where the kids hit a certain point where I stepped back and said, I think I’m ready to climb the ladder now. For me, I felt like I was at that point where it all converges into something powerful, right? You’ve had these experiences where you’ve developed different skill sets and with that has come a comfort level, right? So you’re ready for the next level. That’s what led me to apply for a director level role in the company where I am now. Then my career took off where I was promoted a couple of levels and that’s where I am now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So in that capacity, what are you responsible for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m responsible for certain businesses within the company. That includes a couple of different business areas. The last part is strategy portfolio and operations. It’s a big role because typically a vice president, a global human resource business leader has one business group, one very large business group. That’s typically with 3,000 people in it. It really is like having your small little boutique HR company. The thing about my role which makes it a bit more complicated is having five of those leaders. How do you navigate that, right? Everybody’s different. You influence leaders differently. Some of their goals and objectives conflict yet they don’t see it. You can find yourself in a space of having to work harder than you should to influence leaders, to get them to execute and move things along. So there’s this operating at pace that doesn’t seem to happen. I think it conflicts with my personal, I don’t know, drive to operate at a certain pace. I feel like maybe I’m not as adequate at doing what I do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Got it. Yeah. It’s funny because as you were talking about how typically somebody in your role has one business but you ended up with five and I’m like, well, there seems to be a pattern with multiples."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. [inaudible 00:07:28] I even picked up for-"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For you, right. Not a coincidence that when you talked about that chapter in your life, you called it navigating the terrain and it sounds like that’s what you’re doing now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I don’t know. My hunch tells me you’re probably more well equipped than you think you are but we’ll figure that out as we go. Before we dive into what’s challenging for you now and what are the key questions that are top of mind for you, what do you think has contributed to your progression over the past four or five years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say I get things done. I make it happen. Systemic thinking. I do try to figure out upfront who are those key stakeholders that need to be involved, notified, briefed on things. I would say trust and credibility because I never make promises that I can’t deliver on. I also tend to deliver earlier than expected."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s bring it to the here and now. Share with me a little bit around what is the challenge that you’re facing. What’s the key question that you’re trying to answer that’ll be helpful for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I think for me sometimes I wonder am I being as effective as I can? What I mean by that, am I bringing my VP voice in the room? Am I comfortable with my power? Because there are moments where I just hold back and I wonder what that’s about. I do also get the sense that those above me that have promoted me to this level are waiting to see that VP presence show up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So talk to me. Share with me a little bit around those moments where you felt like you’ve held back. What did that look like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It would be with a leader, right? I don’t question them as much as I should, right? Where they state their view and I may make a comment to say, that’s interesting and let me think about that and come back to them instead of saying in the moment, highly unlikely this would work. Being really there to challenge them in a respectful way but to challenge them. Now the interesting thing is, after working with a leader for a certain amount of time, I do get to that place but it takes me longer than I should at this point in my career."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I’m just curious around the where do you think it should be and how soon do you think you should able to get comfortable or challenge those leaders? What’s your metric there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My metric is within 30 days of working with them. I feel like I should be able to get there particularly given that my knowledge of the rest of the organization. But within 30 days of working with them, I should have that enough, I don’t know, information, enough comfort to be able to push back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what’s happening as a result of you not pushing back in that timeframe?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It creates this space where they’re not sure about what I think and how I truly view things. In an instance, a leader did ask me, what do you think about this particular person on my team? I said to them I don’t know. I haven’t worked with them enough. [inaudible 00:11:17] to see more of them in order to form an opinion. That sat with me in a way where I thought should I know this sooner? Is there something I’m missing here where I need to be moving faster, accelerating these relationships?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As a result of not pushing back or accelerating your ability to do that, to assert your voice because that’s what I’m hearing, you’re really hoping to be at a place where you can assert your point of view and perspective and really advise as you did when you were a consultant, advise in a much sooner way than you’re doing now. If that does not happen, what will happen? What’s the end all impact of you not doing that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then it starts to question my capability. Does she really understand what’s happening? That’s my fear. I’m not sure if that’s the reality but that’s my fear."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s pause here. KIRSTY is extraordinarily self-reflective and has a high level of awareness of what she’s experiencing in her new role. While she’s worried that she’s not asserting herself in the way she thinks she should, that’s not really her concern. The thing she’s really worried about is that she won’t come across as credible to other executives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At this point in our conversation, it’s important that KIRSTY gains clarity on what is really worrying her so that she can solve for that versus just what is happening at the surface. I continue to follow her line of thinking and dig for the so what. What if the executives question her credibility, then what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know if it’s a bit of a knock for my ego because I’ve been moving at such a quick pace and I’ve felt energized and excited by the work. Maybe it makes me feel less than adequate and starts to chip away at my confidence."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I want to understand in those moments, like that example that you gave around the executive who asked you, what do you think about this person on my team? You said, I’m not sure. I haven’t worked with them well enough. Give me some time. What made you say that? What made you not share your perspective right then and there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I do feel that particularly at my level, things that you say can create a halo effect for people. I’m just very mindful of making that mistake of mislabeling someone. I feel like it’s a bit of a super power that you’re given in this space where you really can impact the trajectory of someone’s career. I tend to hold back a bit until I have more data."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So on your end, it’s if you did not have the right data or if you mislabeled, how do you think that would have imp… What would’ve been the impact of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That leader questioning or having a totally different view than me and questioning, well, does she really know the people on my team because what she [inaudible 00:14:38] is not how I see that person or that leader using that information to make talent decisions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what I’m hearing you say is two risks. One is that they use information in a way that then has an impact on others and there’s a risk that then it’s misused-"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "…because it’s not the full data. But I also heard you say that if they disagree with you, then they would question your credibility which interestingly enough is also the reason why you said, if you don’t speak up, right? They might question your credibility. There’s this sort of damned if you do, damned if you don’t position that you’ve put yourself in around if I speak up, they might not think I’m credible and if I don’t speak up, they might not think I’m credible."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s this one aspect of credibility and capability that we want to look at because it sounds to me like it has come up from a place of you actually believing in your capability. What is different now than what it has been for the past number of years where you’ve progressed quite well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s the level that I’m at. This vice president level. I think it gets to this is a new space for me. Do I belong in this room? Is there something additional expected of me at this level that I’m not giving and I just don’t know what it is?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you been in similar situations before where you are in a completely new space that has additional responsibilities of scope and you’re not quite sure if you’re doing it right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I would say even starting out as a consultant, I didn’t even know that world existed before I sat down with the [inaudible 00:16:53] cracked his head and had a conversation with him. I would say personally, the children. I totally knew I never babysat any children growing up. I didn’t know how to feed a baby, right? Totally new space for me. Uncharted territory."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this is good news and bad news, right? The good news is, it might not look like the exact same terrain but you have navigated similar terrain. The bad news is you’ve done it before. As a coach, I love to hear that because I’m like, okay, well then let’s figure out what has worked for you in the past to help you build your confidence in being able to navigate this terrain. I think it’s important we do that first before we get into the blocking and tackling of what can you actually do as a VP. So tell me, if you think back in those situations where it was new, it was complicated, scope was big, it seemed overwhelming, what enabled you to successfully ramp up and get through it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I broke it down into little pieces. Where do I start? What’s the most important piece? Solving it bit by bit. So not letting the situation feel as big as it was but just taking it step by step. The other thing I’ve done is, I’ve operated with this level of openness and excitement. Say instead of recognizing that it’s new and different and letting that dictate my feelings, me saying let me embrace this. Let me learn all that I can about this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So to what extent have you taken both of those attributes, right? Your ability to break things down. Then attribute number two which is you’ve approached it with a sense of openness and excitement rather than, oh my God, this is new and different, right? So if those were the two wings that you navigated those terrains with, to what extent have you used both of those wings in this particular situation at your new level as a VP?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know that I have used them. I’ve been more frozen by the experience because maybe it feels bigger than what it really is. I probably could do more of both."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe there’s a bit here around as you work with those other executives around breaking what their agendas are down into smaller manageable pieces so you can then prioritize where is it that you can add value. Then this piece around approaching it with openness and excitement. If you were to take that perspective on rather than the perspective of being frozen by the experience, what would that look like? What would the difference be?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The difference would be the confidence. I think that’s where it will show up. The confidence that I have in myself and the skillsets that I know I have and that I deserve to be at this level. When I look at my career path, that’s the direct impact to the confidence."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think what you’re touching on user is you being able to hold that you’re relatively new in the role and you have a perspective that you can bring to the table. The two do not have to be mutually exclusive."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I applaud you for being able to recognize that when you are in that tension, you tend to freeze because you don’t know which way to go. Do I stay with the I’m new, so I don’t say anything or do I really leverage the confidence that I know I’ve had in the past and speak. Freezing is not a viable option."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Choosing one or the other is also not a viable option because it means you’re either pulling back completely or you’re pushing forward in a way that may have a negative impact on the organization. So what choice do we have but then to hold the end. How can I continue to be a learner and at the same time offer perspective. You can do that by messaging, right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So if we were to go back to that example that you gave around the executive who asked you what do you think about this team member? You were to have that conversation again but in a way where you held the end, I’m a learner and I have a perspective, how would you show up this time around?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say, this is my perception of working with them so far. I’d list out what my perception is. I’d give a couple of examples. I’d also say, but let me caveat that with the fact that I don’t know them well. I still want to get to know them more either to prove, further confirm my perceptions or shift my perception."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So you can caveat it, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What else would’ve given you more of an inner sense of confidence in responding not only that but also quite frankly approach the other executive at the same level that they’re at?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. What gives me that level of confidence is knowing what I’m walking into. If we knew that I was going to take him on and his business and I had that opportunity to learn about his style, what he likes, what he doesn’t like, what’s important to him and I didn’t have any of that with him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In lieu of having that because I mean this isn’t the last time that you won’t have all that background information, right? In lieu of having that, what strategies or approach do you think you can take to give you more context?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I could connect with others who know this person, right? Who’s worked with this person. Those are ways that I can get more context."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By now user has faced the root of the issue for her. Does she belong in the room? It’s clear that question has impacted her confidence. As a result, she unintentionally sees no other option when facing executives but to not voice her perspective and not assert herself. So the question becomes, how does she turn this around? It starts by KIRSTY recognizing that she does have other choices in how to approach her interactions. Only when she can see what her other options are will she be able to bring her voice into the room with more confidence. Your ability to bring your voice into the room. I’m not even going to call it your VP voice because I think it’s actually your voice. It just happens to be in a VP [inaudible 00:24:47], right? So you’ve always had that voice but it’s now bringing it into this particular room or your ability as you said, to use your power. Your power really lies in your capacity to see the choices in front of you of how to deal with that particular situation. You feel powerless when you feel like you don’t have options. In that moment, what you probably experienced is, I don’t want to say anything. I can’t say anything. My only option is to not say anything because any other option will potentially put me at risk of not being incredible and showing up as though I don’t know what I’m talking about or somebody doing something reckless with my information. So my only option is to not say anything. What I would encourage you to do is, when you think about yourself, how do I use my power? It’s to be able to say, okay, actually let me see the situation for what it is. Not bigger than what it is. Just for what it is and what options do I have right now. I can share information. I can caveat it. I can ask for context. I can mitigate risk, right? So my guess is this is showing up in a couple of different areas around this how can I accelerate the use of my voice?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say amongst my peers. So I’m at this level with individuals who have been vice presidents in this company for probably over 20 years. There is a way of operating at that level. Then you have a couple who are relatively new to the level coming in with probably different experiences because we’ve worked different places and different viewpoints. I believe that my leaders are waiting for me to show up as a leader in that space, right? A leader of leaders. They’re waiting for me to show up that way amongst my peers who have been at this level for a while. I find myself in that same space of holding back exactly some of the items that we’ve talked about before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have a sense for those stakeholders? What their expectations are in terms of what it means for you to step up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I haven’t asked that question."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because on the one hand, I think it’s great that you feel an inner sense of I feel like I don’t have a voice, right? We’ve dug into why that is but you’re also doing this within a system. It’s helpful to also understand what does the system see as success. You don’t have to do that in a way that is… I mean a lot of times you’re like, that’s feedback. I don’t think is a feedback exercise. I think this is a… Because you’ve now been in the role how long? Six months."}, {"role": "user", "content": "About six to nine months. Probably not [inaudible 00:28:12]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Six to nine months. Perfect opportunity to do a onboarding pulse check listening to."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I love that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Identify who these key stakeholders are. Sit down with them. Say, now I’ve been in the role six to nine months. What’s working well? What’s not working well? More importantly, what are your expectations moving forward? What do you need from the role? Not from you, from the role. What does success look like 12 to 18 months from now? Get a sense of what the expectations are. Not so that then you can cater to every single expectation. But what that will enable you to do is take that information back and now be able to sit down and do exactly use one of the wings that has been your superpower in past jobs when you’ve had to navigate terrain. Be able to sit back and say, okay, now I can break this down into manageable chunks and I can prioritize. Because I get the sense that right now what’s happened is, it’s this vast ocean and you’re just like, try to find your way, you’re soaring. You’re like, it’s big. That’s all I know. It’s big. You’re swooping in here and there and making impact. Now is the time to reign it in and quite frankly, to set your own agenda but you don’t want to do that in a vacuum. You want to do that being informed by what the expectations of your stakeholder in the business are."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. You’ve tapped directly into how I’m feeling. What you just described is exactly what’s happening. It’s a big ocean and I’m diving into certain pieces but… That leaves me with a sense of feeling out of control. That feeling feeds into this question in my mind around, do I belong here?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it’s a vicious cycle. When you feel out of control, what you’ve done in the past is you’ve taken a step back. You’ve prioritized. You’ve figured out what needs to get done. You’ve lasered in on the things that are most important. The things that you want to accelerate or identifying what are the most critical aspects of your role. Because right now, do you have an agenda for what your role is? Do you have a sense of what your priorities are and how much it resonates with the rest of the organization?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess that interesting part is when I start to look at it across the different businesses, is where it varies. That adds to the complexity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you can imagine the T formation. You have gotten the breadth of strategically, here are the three or four areas that I’m going to be focused on. Here is the framework at a high level. But what seems to be where there’s opportunity for you is the depth in each of the businesses and even more so than the businesses, each of the individuals, right? I would encourage you now to start thinking about what does it look like for you to now go deep? You’ve done the breadth. How do you go deep to ramp up on your knowledge and your perspective? Because once you have a point of view, then you can have actually start articulating it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That begins to create this confidence and comfort and understanding where I need to hone in with each of these businesses. So [inaudible 00:32:21] been a very thoughtful, intentional way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Absolutely. Look, I think it’s great to build the confidence. I’m going to suggest that you don’t hold onto the confidence so tightly that when it goes, you’re like, oh my God, I’m starting all over again because you’re not. Many of us are confidence chasers."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I love that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Like the tornado chasers. We’re confidence chasers. I mean, confidence is great. Believe me. Yes, I want everybody to be confident. It’s also a feeling, right? It’s how you’re experiencing that moment. Where I would like to see you is whether you’re feeling confident or not confident, you’re going to deal with the moment. Whether you’re feeling confident or not confident, do you see the choices? You have to know what your choice are which we’ve talked about. It’s the different ways of communicating. You have to see the choices in terms of the horizontal and the depth. The depth being the business and then the individual leaders that you’re dealing with."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I love that. The power and the confidence is just the feeling but really defining what power is. That resonates with me so deeply. Because what I thought coming into the discussion was around confidence and using my voice is really more around, do I even understand what the power is and where it lies and how to leverage that and use that. It’s very insightful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I feel like we have covered a lot."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’d love to hear, one, what your takeaways are. Then two, what you’re going to do differently tomorrow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I would say I have a few takeaways. Where do I even start? One is understanding all of the capabilities, skillsets, power, confidence that I do have from my life experiences and how they compare to work. So with me being hesitant to tackle certain issues or not having that confidence to tackle certain issues. The realization that I’ve done it before in my life and being able to carry that over. That’s one thing. I think the other takeaway is my wings, right? Of breaking it down into pieces and the other wing of approaching the way I approach things with the level of openness. That was just very insightful and resonated with me. Then the other pieces of course around power and what power is. It’s seeing the choices in front of you and seeing all the options. That in fact would give me confidence to show up and differently being able to articulate my views and also being comfortable enough to be very directive around how someone uses information that I give them. I love the T factor analogy. The breadth and the depth of helping me get more focused. For me, those are the takeaways. What I will do differently starting tomorrow, even tonight even, is journal my perceptions and really think about each of the businesses and be prepared to have some questions for those leaders when I meet with them again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One last question for you. Do you have… What are your sounding boards internally? Who do you go to, to just run things by and get a sense of what’s happening?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There’s definitely a couple of individuals that I trust. I have to say hand on heart, I have not been leveraging them as much as I could. They’ve been at this level for a while in this organization."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I think you need to have your internal board of advisors. Because in addition to this image that I have of you seeing the whole ocean, I get this image that you’re flying on your own and it doesn’t sound like you are. One of the things that’s very helpful… I mean, there’s the cliche of it gets lonelier as you rise up the ladder and it’s true. But it doesn’t have to be. The difference is that we have to ask for the support. Couple with people who are sounding boards. Set up regular conversations with them. Will then enable you to kick the tires around some of your perspective as well as learn more about what it means to operate at this level in this particular organization."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I know exactly who those individuals are. Capturing their [inaudible 00:38:11] now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s great. I think we have landed the plane."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. This has been amazing. This experience has been absolutely amazing. You’ve unlocked so many things for me. I really appreciate it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you’ve unlocked them. I just play back what you said. Thank you. user is not alone in experiencing a crisis of confidence when starting a more senior role. It can happen to anyone and make you question if you even belong at this new level. That’s why user’s ability to be honest with herself about the root of her uncertainty enabled her to then move to action in a way that reflects that she’s both a learner and a contributor. It is at this intersection where her voice truly lies. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders and for season two of the show. I’d love to hear what your favorite episode was this season and what you learned from it. If you’re dealing with a leadership challenge, please reach out. You can apply to be a guest on the show at coachingrealleaders.com. You can also find me on LinkedIn or on Twitter @MurielMWilkins or on Instagram @CoachMurielWilkins. Thanks to my producer Mary Dooe, music composer Brian Campbell and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you our listeners who shared in their journeys. Of course, if you love the show and learnt from it, pay it forward. Share it with your friends, subscribe, leave a review. From HBR Presents, this is coach AI."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "He’s a senior leader in a hospital, who has long seen himself as an advocate for equality for his female colleagues. But in the past few years, he’s faced a few instances where women he works with have been offended by exchanges with him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m coach AI and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Presents Network. I’m a long-time executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who’ve hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them, so that hopefully they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show, we have a one time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they’re facing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call “user,” to protect his confidentiality. He’s a leader in the medical field and has been a hospital chief for over a decade. It’s a role that involves a lot of people management over and beyond his clinical responsibilities. He’s viewed himself as someone who’s pretty good at interpersonal relations. It’s something he’s gotten positive feedback on in the past. But more recently, he’s been surprised by how some of his interactions with female colleagues have gone. And while he’s considered himself a supporter of gender equity, he now wonders if he’s part of the issue, and even more so, what he can do about it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But gender equity is very good in our hospital, including amongst leaders. And I see myself interacting with women in different positions in my own department, in my own group, and I want to see how to make that better because at least two instances sort of caused me to rethink how I’m thinking about my interactions and whether I’m sensitive enough to understanding the reactions or what I say, am I listening enough? Should I be listening differently to a man and a woman?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the last few years, issues related to diversity, equity, and inclusion have risen even more to the forefront, making it hard for leaders to ignore. And while there’s much talk about how to deal with gender equity at an organizational level, there’s still a lot of discomfort in talking about how it plays out interpersonally between men and women at work. It’s not an easy thing to come forward with an issue like this, and it’s certainly not one that can be wrapped up in a pretty bow in one coaching session. But it’s one we wanted to tackle because it’s a challenge that honestly probably a lot of men face. They’re telling themselves. “I feel like I’m walking on eggshells. Am I interacting with women colleagues in the right way? Am I being sensitive enough or overly sensitive?” Before diving into the specifics of user’s current situation. I wanted to hear what he thinks makes him an effective leader."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I get along with people very well. Generally people trust me and I think that has helped a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And why do they trust you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I really don’t know [laughter]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They just do."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think maybe I keep things simple and straightforward. I don’t try to complicate stuff. I work almost 50 percent clinically in the forefront so whatever I’m asking them to do I do myself. So the time actually I overwork so that I do enough clinical work because I know that I cannot do this forever. It takes a lot of energy, enthusiasm, and I’m very conscious of the fact that I lead a team of professionals who are experts in their own rights and I’m not the one to boss over them, I’m the one to sort of shepherd them, guide them, fight for them, advocate for them. We have four divisions in our department, the divisional chiefs report to me. Then there are other things that I do for the hospital, like you have to sit on committees. Equity, diversity and inclusion is something very new that we’ve started, so started to do that more formally within the department."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "First of all, it sounds like you have a lot on your plate, right? So when you look at sort of the portfolio of responsibilities that you have in your leadership role, what are the areas that you are drawn to and then what are the areas where you do them but with a little less affection?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Teaching comes very naturally to me. Doing clinical work comes naturally because that’s what we trained for all of our life, right, as a doctor. Interacting with people is great fun, it’s amazing to listen to people’s stories. And often what you see on the surface is not what it is. What I find really challenging in this role, taking care of finances. The other aspect which is difficult is change management, like for everyone else. I’ve be successful in some divisions within my department to bring about change and some not so much. So those are some challenges, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So currently, so we’re sitting here having this conversation, what do you see as the leadership challenge that you’re facing right now? What brought you here today?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I found that I had three interactions with women in my department, whom I worked for many years, where they got very upset at me. And I realized that, “Hey, there’s something wrong that I’m doing over here, it’s like maybe I could be completely wrong over here.” And I’m trying to think what the worth/cost is. So, first of all, it could be the way I said it and did it. I think in one instance, I’m pretty sure about that because I reached out to my HR colleague who’s a woman and who has good insight into human relations and human resources and stuff like that. The other two instances are a little bit surprised at the reaction, I didn’t expect that, and I said maybe I’m doing something wrong over here. We are not sensitive enough. I’m doing in my old style, my old way, where maybe the sensitivity has to be different. The #MeToo movement has changed a lot, right, that’s my perception and also the stress of COVID. There’s a lot of personal stressors that people have felt. This is a question I even asked him about the VP of my organization, she’s very experienced, she’s phenomenal. So I asked her once that when I give feedback to people who report up to me, do I have to change it based on gender or race and other things?” And she said, “Well, that’s a tough one. I don’t know how to answer that,” and she said she’ll think about it and get back to me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very, very smart person. So I just want to make sure that I sort of understand the situation and the circumstance that you’re in and then the key question that you have, right? So it sounds like what’s happened is you’ve had some circumstances, more recently, so it doesn’t sound like this has happened in the past, it’s been recent?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "This is over the last one and a half years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And it sounds like what’s happened is you have shared some feedback or shared some news with female colleagues and you were surprised by the way that they responded to you and that you found that they got upset with you. And so your question is, do you need to change the way that you communicate with or approach your female colleagues as you move forward?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s correct. So in two instances, it was feedback. And one instance was a conversation based on other issues."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. All right, and before we dive into some of those situations, just so I can get a little bit of color, why is this important to you right now? Why is this even a question that you want to answer for yourself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because I pride myself on having considered gender equity all my life. My mother was very educated, and we were not well off in the beginning but even in those years in the ’50s, she had a Bachelor of Arts Degree so she was very well educated. And then I consider my wife to be a phenomenal person who brings a lot to the table. In fact, she’s of immense help to me in whatever I do, and it sort of shook me up a little bit when I had those reactions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it shook it up in what way? What was shook?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought I was doing something wrong, which I’m sure that there is a different way to approach things, which I don’t know what exactly wrong I was doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s take a pause here. While user was blindsided by how his interactions with his female colleagues played out, he’s taking a very important step and putting the focus of this discussion on him, and thereby owning his part. Of course, every interaction has two sides to the story. And most times people expend their energy on blaming the other person. “Why did she get emotional? Why did she take it the wrong way?” Versus turning the lens on themselves. So the fact that user is willing to do this is key in being able to eventually get to strategies. Another critical point here is why he wants to address the issue? What’s his motivation? If he’s simply doing it because he’s checking the box, his actions will not be genuine or sustainable. But in his case, user’s motivation lies deeper than that in his sense of purpose. Leaders have to realize that if they truly want to move the needle on equity issues, they have to find a purpose in it, rather than approaching it as an HR requirement. So with these things in place for user, he was now ready to unpack this challenge some more. But before we did that, I invited him to approach it with a bit of a different mindset."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So before we dive in, I want to sort of offer something to you as we have this conversation, okay? Your colleague, who you went to and asked for some suggestions and she said, “Oh, that’s a tough one. Let me stop and think about it.” And I said, “Smart person to respond that way.” It is tough, and I think maybe what I’ll offer is just a gentle suggestion that you don’t look at this for yourself as right or wrong. Can you shift from this assessment that you have had of yourself around, “I am good at dealing with women,” right, which I think is what your belief has been, and now something has shook that up, to I am always learning on how to deal with other people, in this case, female colleagues? Many times we get shook up in how people respond to us, particularly when something has worked for us for so long because we actually think we’re good at it. There is no good, right? You’re just continuously learning. And I think this is an area that, obviously, you’re going to continue to grow on and hopefully you’ll learn something out of this conversation. So just that slight shift, if you can move away from right or wrong way. And more, “what do I still need to learn?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So let me tell you the one where I think I have a little bit insight. So one of our professionals, who is a very high achiever, very organized, really in the top 10th percentile of such people in the world. One day, came to me and said that, “I want to do this and this project,” she needed time for that, like half a day a week, plus she’s going to use our own time, one day in the weekend. It was going to take about a year for her to do that. We talked about it a little bit, and then I sort of suggested that, “You are very busy, you have achieved a lot. I’m not sure that you really need to do this because a lot of your personal time into this. Though I don’t want to prevent you from doing it, I want you to consider whether this really is something you want to do.” So the person was pretty insistent that this is what they want to do and I said, “Are you sure because it might impact your family life.” And that caused a reaction which was pretty intense. The person got very upset at me and started giving examples of how organized a person, is, what time they come in, how they never miss anything at school or PTA, and stuff like that. So I obviously backed up and I said, “Listen, that was my opinion but if you want to do it, go ahead and do it and we will support you.” We did support it in little bit financially and also in terms of giving time and stuff like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What part blindsided you there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "She got really upset saying that, “You don’t know how organized I am, how I can manage things, and how I do things,” and this and that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so what surprised you about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought I was really trying to help her or prevent her from overworking herself. But contrary to that, she got upset at me I thought and so that was what surprised me that I was reaching out for her, but she didn’t get that. I was judgmental and saying that she could not do this and it will impact her family. So that is what caused the problem."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so I’d like to deconstruct this a little bit because the first thing that I picked up on what you shared is you were surprised by her reaction, and the surprise was that she got upset when what you were trying to do was actually be supportive, okay? And so the surprise reaction was her being upset. Now, whenever we’re surprised by somebody else’s reaction, it’s because we have an expectation that they will react a different way, okay? That literally is the difference between being surprised and not being surprised. So what did you think she was going to do by your intent on being supportive?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought she would reconsider her plan because it was going to be very intensely busy for her for the next one year or so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And so you thought she would reconsider it and you described what actually happened is her being upset. So what adjectives would you use to describe how you would have thought she responded?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was expecting her to be calm and composed about it and to explain to me why she would still want to do it or how she would manage the time or give up something else. That’s what I was expecting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, understood. So what I want you to hold on there is there’s emotions that you’re expecting or not expecting on both ends, in terms of what you responded. And in actuality, part of you triggered an emotion in her, but she also owns her own emotion and you can’t control it. So you’re certainly contributing to how she reacted, but she also owns a part of it. So what we’re going to focus on is what is the part that you’re contributing. And there’s also this piece of can you really control somebody else’s response?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably not. Or not always."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Probably not. You certainly can’t control it. I mean, look, we have a hard enough time controlling our own emotional reactions, how the heck are we going to control somebody else’s emotional reactions, right? So you can try to influence it, right? You can try to come in with the right energy and intentions that hopefully will result in the person being calm and composed, as you said. But it’s not all in your hands, okay? So the question is, how do you approach, in this situation, the conversation in a way that increases the chances of her responding in a more calm and composed way? And does that have anything to do, right, that’s the underlying question, does that have anything to do with her gender? So that’s the first part. The second part is you said it seemed like what she got upset about was your assertion around this impacting her work-life balance, right? When she went through that checklist, what do you think she was trying to communicate to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That she really, really wanted to do this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That she really wanted to do, why? Let’s sort of peel back the onion. Because why?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "She wanted to climb the ladder."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She wanted to climb the ladder, and what did she has to show for her ability to climb the ladder?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought she had done quite a lot already to climb the ladder without doing this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, when you sort of brought up the issue, it sounds—nd again, she’s not here for me to talk to you so I don’t know—but it sounded like she went back to, but look at everything that I’ve done, right? Look at all the effort that I put in. And you were focused on the goal. “Is it even possible for you to do that? Do you really want that goal?” Without acknowledging the effort that she had already put into place, okay? I will offer research that’s been done and resources around gender differences and how to talk to gender differences, with the caveat that it can lead to generalizations, right? So while we can talk about it from a gender standpoint, I want to be cautious of not making generalizations, okay? There was a book written awhile back by I don’t remember exactly the name of the book. I can get it to you but the authors were John Gray and Barbara Annis, I believe they’re the ones who wrote, Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus and then they wrote a book that was more focused on the workplace, okay? And one of the things that came up in their research, so they had done a ton of research around what is the difference in communication that happens between males and females in the workplace? One of the differences and they coined us having lack of gender intelligence, is that men tend to prioritize and sequence their work in their decisions and focus based on the results, rather than the efforts to get there. While women do care about the goal, right, clearly as your colleague did, but they also care very much about the effort and the process of reaching them. And so what this then translates into is how males and females in the workplace tend to feel appreciated. Males will tend to feel appreciated when their accomplishments are acknowledged, while women also want their efforts to be appreciated on the way to getting the goal."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very interesting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So when I share that difference, how you translate that into the situation that you face with this particular colleague?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now that I think about, it makes a lot of sense that. I should have spent some time acknowledging all the efforts that she’s put into whatever she has done and what she is going to do before having made any suggestions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And in order to acknowledge, what you need to do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I need to rephrase and restate the achievements. I acknowledge that she put a lot of time effort in how successful she has been and give some specific examples of success to show that I really care about the efforts that she has put in, and even the results that she’s achieved there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And I think even a step before being able to acknowledge anyone around their efforts is your ability to listen to what their efforts have been, okay? This is the tension between do we drive straight to the solution or do we lead with the listening and understanding before driving to a solution?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now that I think about it. Listening is one thing, acknowledging the efforts that she put in. I think the third part of it is also how I said it possibly. Instead of going straight to the point, asking it in question format like, how do you think you will manage work life balance with this, giving her an option to answer the question that I had in my mind or a concern that I had in my mind, instead of stating it out like that, which I think came across as a sort of a judgment on her ability to manage the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, I want to highlight that I think it’s beneficial that you are defining this as a judgment, that it came across as a judgment. Correct me if I’m wrong, it sounded like you were trying to actually be equitable in that moment and say, “Hey, I want you to sort of consider what this means in terms of the other areas of your life.” But you did it without necessarily asking her, you did it by asserting it. And so the missing link here is, can you demonstrate understanding and acknowledgement before driving to a solution?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That is key I think, yeah, that’s good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so when we talk about it in that way, do you see a common theme with some of the other situations that you’ve faced that have surprised you in dealing with some of your female colleagues?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah I do actually yes. I think the same thing would work well to demonstrate understanding and acknowledgement before trying to reach a solution would have helped for sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And at the end of the day, it all comes down to the way that one views the situation. There’s an interesting statistic that says I think it’s like 82 percent of women feel some form of exclusion, 92 percent of men don’t feel they exclude women, right? I mean, you want to talk about living in two different realities? And so, if the goal in leading from an inclusive way is about understanding and making decisions and being informed based on what the others’ reality is, the place to start is to let go of how we view their reality and fully understand what is that woman’s reality?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so it all comes back down to, are you truly listening? You mentioned something very early on in our conversation when I asked you, “what do you think has led to your success and progressing as a leader?” And one of the things you said is that you like interacting with people, particularly because what you see on the surface might not necessarily be the meat of it, but it sounded like you like to get under the hood and really understand what’s going on. I mean, my goodness, that’s what your profession even forget that people, what you do as a living, that’s what it’s all about, right? It’s like getting underneath it to figure out what’s going on, right? And when you do that with your patients you do that why?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it makes a huge difference in outcomes that’s why."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the same goes here, the difference is now going under the surface and getting under the hood is understanding, “well what is this person believe about the situation? What efforts did she think it’s going to take? What does she think is important?” And listening for that, acknowledging it and then asking the questions to help them come up with their own decision, while still letting go of any expectation of what their response might be."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, now, the other thing that you mentioned was makes this, I don’t want to dismiss it, is you said this has been more of a recency experience that you’ve had."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now that I’m thinking more about it. In all these instances, I did not spend time preparing and thinking about it. And in certain ways, I was rushed. I realized that I’ve had many difficult conversations in the past, and I always prepared a script, thought about it. Now that you are talking about it, reflecting on this, all these instances where we’re going from one meeting to the next meeting to the next meeting, and you’re sort of trying to swing it on the fly. That could probably one of the problems, I suppose, now that I realized that listening was an important part of it—that’s true. Preparing for it is another important part of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this is something for you to know about yourself, right? That when you have the time to prepare, it allows you to actually create more openness. And so when you think about it ahead of time, it’s almost like your warmup. The situation hasn’t happened yet, it’s not going to replicate in the exact same way but it creates some openness for you, as a leader, to then say, “Okay, I have different choices in terms of how I deal with this. And I also can go in and knowing that there might be different responses.” Rather than this very closed way, okay? And, by the way, it’s very difficult for one to put themselves in a posture of listening to the other person and understanding the other person if they don’t come into it with an open stance—very, very difficult. Listening is an opening activity, not a closed. Driving to solution is a closed activity."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s a very good way of putting it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You also mentioned that it feels to you, and maybe this has changed over the course of our conversation I don’t know, but that contextually has something just in the way that conversations about equity and diversity and inclusion and the #MeToo movement have increased, how much has that contributed to what is going on. So what are your thoughts there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think there is an increased sensitivity to how people are being spoken to. Seriously, I haven’t trained myself properly in all the language for equity, diversity, and inclusion. And then I realized that we have to train ourselves on how and what we say. And when I speak to several other women in the department, some of them are not concerned at all, the other people, so there’s a divide. The other’s are like, “Yes, of course, we have suffered for so long, it’s time for us to move beyond this and for people to understand, the world to understand everything that’s happening.” So I can see that that change has come around. At least when I converse with women in my department informally. I have some close friends of mine talk to, to try to get the feedback."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so for you as a male, walking through and leading through a time now when there is an increased focus on equity and inclusion and diversity, and you’re hearing on the one hand, some people say, “Yes, it’s time for people to learn a new language,” and you’re like, “Okay, I just want to make sure I say the ‘right thing’”, and then you’re hearing from other people like, “It’s okay. Just move it on.” I’m just interested in hearing like, how does that make you feel? On a day to day basis how do you experience that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m not sure yet but I’ll tell you, the more people talk about it, the more you become sensitive to it. I’ll give you my own experience. Just a few weeks back I was listening to a very, very intense talk from one of our EDI [equity, diversity, and inclusion] leaders at the University, and she is known for speaking direct and making you feel uncomfortable. She was speaking to a group of leaders and as she was talking about racist comments and all that, suddenly I started thinking about the things that I faced earlier on, which until now, I did not even consider or think about race seriously. But then I realized that, that is what happened to me. I was saying, “Damn, that’s correct what’s she saying, this happened to me.” Thinking about those situations that I faced—previously I just ignored, I just brushed them under the carpet. Now when this person was speaking about it so openly and making people uncomfortable in the audience, and I’m thinking, “Yes, this happened to me too.” And of course I forgot about if the next day. But that really came to the forefront, right? So that’s why I think it’s very important—the people who don’t worry about it a lot out are. So I consider myself to be in a position of privilege, because these things have happened to me they’re not really impacted me in my life. Whereas, there are people whom it may have made a difference to. So I think there are two parts to this,it’s not like there’s wrong or right it is that there’s a reality to this that we have to face."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There is a reality to this that that we have the face and you are in a position of leadership and power."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So beyond your own individual experience in terms of how you face it, there is also around what message do you send, based on your leadership position, around how you face it? And so this is actually where, from a leadership standpoint, it’s a little more complex because it’s not just your individual experience. How you respond to these situations is not just representing user, okay? It’s representing leadership for your organization. And what is the organization’s approach to these differing realities that people have? Differing experiences. And so you have used the word being sensitive that you think you need to be more sensitive and I’m just curious, what does being sensitive actually mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, maybe I’m not using the correct word, but being more understanding of the current context, how people may feel about things that are said or done, though the intent is not that. So just being very, I’m coming back to the word sensitive, but being very careful how we put things and how we address things. That’s what I mean."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Okay, so what I’m hearing you say is really increasing your capability to understand. We keep coming back to this word, understand. Increasing your capability to understand how the other might be experiencing what is going on in the here and now, so that you can then adapt and be adaptable as a leader to how you respond, what solutions you bring to the table, how you communicate, whatever it is that’s required of you. That actually is quite different than being sensitive, right? Whenever I think of the word sensitive, I sort of think about, what is your tolerance for putting your finger on a hot plate? Sensitivity is just how much can you feel it so that it raises the awareness that something is hot? So it is a level of awareness. So yes, we want you to be sensitive so that your level of awareness around what might be triggering or what the reality of that female colleague might be, we want the time between the situation and it happening, that level of awareness to go up at a quicker pace than it has in the past. But awareness just for the sake of awareness is notihng. So I’m going to offer you to move beyond the goal of being more sensitive. You’ve demonstrated sensitivity, you wouldn’t be here if you didn’t have the antenna on it. But and then what? Sensitivity to what and for what, okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So go on to understanding and start adapting and communicate better, listen better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I think I wouldn’t be doing you justice by ignoring the fact that if we sort of take it to a broader picture and the environment in which you’re operating, the context in which you’re operating where the conversations about equity and inclusion and diversity have been raised to the forefront over the past two, three years with the #MeToo movement and then Black Lives Matter movement, it indexed higher than it has for a couple of decades, right? Doesn’t mean the conversation hasn’t been there, it’s just raised to the surface. And organizations are starting to pay attention to it, which mean leaders have to pay attention to it. So I don’t want to dismiss that piece of it because that is sort of the ecosystem under which these individual meetings that you’re having are happening. And so on the one hand, it requires you to be more sensitive, as you said—really to be more understanding and adaptable, that’s really what it is, okay? And on the other hand, those who have faced those inequities for a long time have probably reached a point where they feel like they can actually voice those frustrations or those experiences that have been suppressed for so long. And so understanding that, that what you might be interpreting as an emotional reaction has nothing to do with the situation. I mean, the situation is triggering it, but your colleague’s “emotional” reaction to us saying, “Hey, do you really think this is something that you’ll be able to handle given your personal life?” It has to do with you asking that question, and it also has to do with probably what she has experienced for years and years and years beforehand. I mean, here’s the thing, right? I think part of what many people are experiencing, and you’re not alone in all of this right, and I say this without judgment one way or the other or without any assertion of whether it’s a good or a bad thing. But I think a lot of people are behind closed doors sort of feeling like it is very uncomfortable that they have to watch what they can say, what they can’t say, and it almost feels like they’re walking on eggshells, right? And part of it is, particularly in a leader position is being becoming comfortable with that discomfort, okay? And the reason why is because you have to understand that the causality of having to now be careful what you say to the other is because the other has had to do that for a very, very long time, right? There was a time when women could not talk about their children in the workplace,out of fear that, “Oh my gosh, is it gonna ruin my career?” and this, this and that. So understanding that there’s actually a very mutual experience here, okay? And so hopefully, we get to a place where nobody has to walk on eggshells. Why? Because we have an increased understanding of the other. All right, so let’s try to synthesize for you. I’d love to hear what your key takeaways are and moving forward, how this conversation will help inform your leadership?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The most important thing was to go into it with an openness of understanding, learning what they really want to do and going in with having options in place, not just jumped to a solution is what I hear. Listening very well and I think that is something, I think there’s something that one needs to relearn, listening skills, given that I may have lost it in getting very busy over the last one and a half years dealing with COVID situations, which were pretty intense. But getting back to the basics of, you know, it’s all about people, so really understanding them again in a way that I used to do I think in the past. So a lot of common sense behind it but approaching it in a methodical way in the stages like you explained."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so what’s great about this user is, I don’t think it’s very different than what you have done in the past, in other areas, in different circumstances, right? So that’s something not to lose sight of is that it’s not—while it’s new, it’s not completely new."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But thank you—thank you so much for bringing this."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was very good, thank you very much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No matter what we’d like to believe about ourselves, everyone has their own biases that they bring to the workplace. And for leaders like user, it’s important to recognize their bias, to tackle them, and constantly be reflecting on and questioning your own assumptions and behavior, and whether they truly promote diversity, equity, and inclusion, or do they work against it. And it also means being able to enter any situation with a level of openness to the other person’s experience, and the ability to adapt accordingly, regardless of what your own experiences. And that is part of the journey of walking the talk as a leader who wants to truly embrace DEI [diversity, equity, and inclusion]—being able to walk into a room and open up a conversation instead of narrowing and closing it off, is something that’s key to being a successful leader. And these are lessons to apply with anyone you work with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe, music composer Brian Campbell, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners, who share in their journeys. If you’re dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you, and possibly have you on the show. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And you can find me on LinkedIn on Twitter @murielmwilkins or on Instagram @coachMurielWilkins. If you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward, share it with your friends, subscribe, leave a review. From HBR Presents, This is coach AI."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "She made it to a coveted senior role, but she isn’t feeling excited about her future career path. And now she’s wondering how to balance all the competing commitments in her life – children, spouse, elderly parents, and work – while still pursuing what she really cares about."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m coach AI, and this is Coaching Real Leaders. Part of the HBR Presents network. I’m a long-time executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who’ve had a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them, so that hopefully they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show, we have a one-time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they’re facing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call, “user,” to protect her confidentiality. She’s a lawyer and has followed a pretty traditional career trajectory from law school to a big firm to an in-house counsel job. But even though she acknowledges she’s done well for herself, she’s feeling unsettled."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At times I feel like I’m going through a very stereotypical midlife crisis, and I’m definitely wondering, it’s like, what’s left for me? What do I really want? Am I happy? I feel like I’m not that happy, but yet I’m not really unhappy. And you just kind of feel lost."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user got to where she is today by following a certain blueprint that always led to the next accomplishment. Now she’s unsure of what’s next and she’s seeking clarity."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hopefully for me, it’s quieting some of the noise that’s buzzing in my head, that’s clouding my decision-making process. Sometimes when my thoughts are like lasers that are dispersed and, I hopefully, maybe could fine tune it to get a little bit more clarity, so that I can go through this process in my head and feel good about what my next steps are."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And while user has acted with certainty throughout her career, she now finds herself at a point in time when she’s really unsure of what to even ask herself to clarify what’s next. So she begins by reflecting on what has led her to where she is today."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I come from a family who value education. And I’m pretty proud of the fact that I feel, even though my family is an immigrant family, we’ve all really prioritized education and trying to do the best for ourselves in terms of personal development, career trajectory, whatnot. It was expected to me to go to graduate school because everyone in my family has gone to graduate school. My brother, just to one-up me, got an MD and a PhD. He’s the annoying one in the family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s always one of those. I’m trying to figure out if I was the annoying one."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hey, nerds are cool now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s all relative."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. So like a good daughter, you study hard in high school, you go to a college that you think will prepare you for a good career. And then I went to grad school and tried to go to a good grad school and then get a job. And then you just keep climbing that corporate ladder, and just up, up, up, up, up. So that’s where I am at now. Especially, and I’m sure the pandemic has caused a lot of people this self-Reflect to the point you ask yourself, “Where am I going? What am I doing? Is this really where I want to be?” And I feel like I maybe didn’t do a lot of that when I was ascending my career path because it was just one foot ahead of the other, one foot ahead of the other. And at some point, you get up to higher elevation, let me just stop and take a look and survey the land here and what’s going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Survey land and then you also realized the altitude—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Requires a different level of breathing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And I’m not so much of an outdoor person."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So let me ask you this, I know you said you ascended one step at a time, one step at a time, but at each of those inflection points or those transition points, what did that look like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My career pivots have been – mostly it’s just changing companies and have been primarily driven through either boredom as in I’m not developing anymore, I’ve really plateaued. Or figuring out if I want to achieve this next step in life, what would be a better position to help posture me to get to something else? For example, if I look at my resume and I feel like I have a gap in a certain area, maybe I need to see if I could explore a different job, where it could fill in that gap and make me a more marketable person in general. And generally, that aligns with my wanting to learn, develop, and grow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. When you think back to when you first started your career path, did you have a vision of what you wanted to become? Was general counsel, the vision, the goal?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "God no. When I first started law school, I thought I was going to be a criminal defense lawyer, and that’s really gone by the wayside."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why? What happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Student debt and upon graduating from law school, I thought I would just go into the corporate private practice world for a few years, pay off debt, and then try to pivot. So I just kept going down this path that I’m currently on. And before you know it, you look in the rearview mirror and actually, I’ve actually been out of law school for a very long time and never – which is okay, because I’m still very happy with what I am. To answer your question, now I’m far off from where I anticipated I was going to be when I first started law school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And is that something that’s still, not necessarily becoming a criminal defense lawyer, but the whole justice piece, is that something that motivated you back then? Is that still a motivation for you now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Not anymore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What motivates you now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess that’s a very broad and open-ended question. Part of my challenge in trying to calm the noise that’s in my head to try to figure out directionally where I think I want to go is because there are many competing interests and not all of them are professionally related. So personal motivation, like I said before, it’s still growth development. But what also motivates me are my kids. I’m a mom of two. I’ve uprooted my family a few different times and it gets harder as my kids get older. My kids are very vocal. Maybe they get that from me and they let me know when they’re not happy. And so last time was a little bit challenging and they were not very happy about that move. And so my kids motivate me, and their happiness is everything to me. So doing something that would be selfish to my own personal career could potentially be in conflict with their happiness. I know the motivator is, I’m a daughter, I’ve got my parents, my elderly parents are still around. And I guess I’m limited on my options because I want to make sure I’m still around for them, in case they need me. I’m a wife. Yeah. So I’ve got my personal motivations and then I’ve got my surrounding motivation, which are all huge factors in my life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. It’s interesting because you listed them as motivators, and I’m hearing them as guard rails."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s these guard rails that you have to operate within."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’ll get to it, but I’m still not quite clear what motivates user? What makes user sing? Not what can user do to make sure that everybody else is okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To me, I guess if I looked at my life as a pie and everything has a slice. And by the way, I really like pie. So if my life is a pie, work is a slice, kids – when my kids are happy and they’re growing, they’re learning, they’re experiencing life, that makes me really happy. While it is at times a guard rail, it’s also a huge source of happiness for me. What your point about, I hear is guardrails, I think that’s absolutely true. But the flip side of that is also, if my family isn’t happy, then I’m not going to be happy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s take a moment here. user, is not unlike many high achievers. She’s checked off all the boxes, the good grades, the schools, the job, the family, and now she’s arrived at what she thought was the destination. But along with that, has come a series of what she feels are competing interests. And she wonders if she can really have it all or what that even means. user is feeling dissonance – a tension between different parts of her life. On the one hand, she’s happy with the decisions she’s made because they felt like the right things to do. On the other hand, she’s not happy because she feels they’ve limited her. And this tension is one that many people ignore for a long time. Sometimes their whole lives, until they just can’t anymore. And then the question becomes what to do with it. Or as user puts it, “where do I go from here?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m looking for the magic answer. I’m just looking to quiet the noise that’s in my head, all these competing interests. But then having that laser, which currently is very fragmented, be a little bit more focused, so I feel like I’m okay with the direction that I’m going in. Even if that direction is, I’m not going anywhere for a little bit and just stopping and smelling the roses."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Got it. Right. Because right now, are you in a place where you are looking for something else or are you being offered other things? What is even motivating you right now to be in this place of this question?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m always open to new opportunities just to hear, even if it’s just a matter of confirming the fact that I’m happy with where I am. But nothing has really excited me. I feel the same malaise that I feel currently, even with new opportunities. There hasn’t been a single one that’s really gotten me excited, and that’s been different than in prior years, where I’ve been interviewing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How is that different?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For other years, I’ve been excited to try a different job because I’m going to learn something totally different, and I’m going to enter a new field or whatnot. These jobs, I’m not super excited. I’m going through the motions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And so in prior years, your excitement came from the newness of it because it was something new?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "New, more challenging, totally different industry. Sometimes the people I’ll be working with, they feel like they’re really smart and I can learn a lot from them or I can work well with them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so now, because I feel like that was your formula back then for getting excited about something, what would excite you now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. Instead, I hear a lot of naysaying going on in my head. Like the guard rails I were talking about. Starting a new job will require a lot of time away from my family, more travel. I may have to move, uproot my family again. At least now, these are the people I work with are known commodities. I know who they are. I work well with them. I go to a new company. I’ve definitely been at companies before I were in senior management, very challenging to work for. I don’t want to go back to something like that. It’s just all these competing naysayer sounds going on in my head."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So here’s the thing. I think that right now you’re operating in reactive mode. In the past, the way that you got your new career positions is you reacted to the opportunity that was in front of you. And it was like somebody put something in front of you and you were, “That looks good.” And imagine it was a meal. It was, “That looks good. That looks delicious. Let me try it. It’s new, never had it.” And then you’ve had a couple of those really, really good meals. And now the next one is being put in front of you. And you’re like, “It’s not that different. Not sure if it’s going to create excitement.” And so really, you’re at this place right now, instead of reacting to the opportunity that in front of you, you’re at a place of having to try to figure out what could it look like? What’s the possibility? If I could create it, what would be the components that would make it exciting, that would make it something that I would want? In order to do that, you’re absolutely right, you’ve got to dampen, as you put it, the naysayers in your mind because quite frankly, we’re just being imaginative. It’s not even real. So why let the naysayers even talk? I want to just be imaginative for a little bit. Imagine that there were no guard rails, or there were no conditions from anyone else. So it was limitless. You could do pretty much anything. I want you to think about what would be the components that would get you in a role that would get you remotely interested in pursuing it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So top priority to me is it must be a role where I’m learning, developing, and growing. And there has to be a deep enough roadmap for that company where I feel like I’m still going to be challenged going forward in future – five years, seven years down the road, and I’m not going to get bored. It doesn’t necessarily mean that I have everything I do has to be brand new and challenging. It just means that I need to have some of that in my job, in order for me to continue to be interested and engaged. A really nice one on the wishlist would be a company whose product or services or something has something I really believed in. I want to work with people who inspire me, who I feel like are making a difference – whether that be with their employees, with their community, with the world. It doesn’t have to be everything, it could be on a small scale. But somebody who I felt like was really trying to effectuate some change. The impact would be for me, that what drives me to wake up every morning and be excited to do what I do. I know that either I’m going to be challenged with the work that I need to accomplish or challenged by my peers. And that they’re going to stretch my thinking, stretch my abilities, so that I feel like when I started the job, I was at a certain level. And as I progressed through the job, I’m just getting better and better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. And so when those things are not in place, because when they’re in place, you say you’re excited, you’re happy, when those things are not in place, what are you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m where I am now, whereas, I feel like I’m in a rut."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And so where did this definition of happiness come from for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably just from feeling that in the past, in jobs where I felt like those things were aligned and I really loved my job. I think it’s from past experience and knowing what that does feel like and knowing how that makes me feel and how I get excited to work every day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think it’s important to, as you just said, to understand, where that source of joy comes from. What I want you to think about and reflect on is just as you’ve grown as a person and you have advanced in your career, has that recipe for happiness as it relates to work changed at all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I think it has. Earlier in my career when I’ve had a lot of great job satisfaction, I maybe had fewer competing interests in my own personal life. So yeah, I agree. How I personally define happiness at work for myself has evolved over years and maybe it’s gotten a little bit more cynical."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So we looked at the wishlist on the work-front. And if you had to prioritize those things around something you believe in, in terms of a product or service, learning to growing and being challenged, and then working with people who inspire you, how would you prioritize those three buckets?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The learning, developing, growing is top. Number two would be a company that whose product services I believe in, in the brand champion. And three would be, working with people who inspire me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it’s interesting to me because I feel like the learning, developing, growing, when I asked you about your timeline, what brought you here, and you shared with me your experience going through school and education was number one. And I mean, education is all about learning and growing. And as you went from job to job, it was, which ones are going to help you get to the next level? What gaps do you need to fill? So this has been a very consistent theme for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If we had to write your theme song, it would be something about learning and growing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh my gosh!"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Like play to all the kindergartners out there in the world. Such a lame theme song, but okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But here’s the thing, I’m intrigued by what you said around feeling, I love the word malaise, right, because you can feel it. And so, I don’t know, I’m curious to what extent does that theme song still pump you up and energize you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "None. It’s very quiet right now. Yeah. My theme song isn’t being played anymore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so I do think that you’re at a place of having to make some choices, and people hate when I say this, but choices are the same things as making trade-offs. I think that that’s the place where you need to anchor yourself. What does having it all mean for you? And not what we are, dare I say, conditioned to believe having it all means. What does it mean for user to have it all? And I’ll put that in a more concrete, you’re probably not going to think it’s concrete, but I think it’s more concrete. The question I have for you is how do you define success?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the grand scheme of things, I think I’ve achieved success. I have a very successful career that a lot of young women that I try to help – they look at me as somebody who they want to learn from me about how I got to where I am. So, by all accounts, I do consider my life a success. I could reflect upon that. What I’m looking for now is just trying to make myself personally a little bit more happy. But, at least from success standpoint, I’m happy overall. I feel like if I quit my job tomorrow, I could look back at my career and what I’ve done and how I’ve also tried to give back, and I’d be happy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So what’s missing for you internally?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In part, I think it’s what we talked about – how do I define happiness professionally, which is a huge part of who I define as myself, and that being unsatisfied. And probably just having always put one foot ahead of the other and not really stopping to think what is it that I really want to do as opposed to, like, this will help catapult me to the next point in my career or this will catapult me to break that glass ceiling of general counsel job, whatnot. It’s not really stopping and say, “is this something that I really want?” As opposed to just focusing on that price of the end."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user acknowledged that she’s been so focused on achieving that she’s never stopped to ask herself what she really wants. In a sense, she’s been so busy checking off the external milestones, she’s never checked on the internal ones. At this point of the conversation, I could dive into career strategy mode to help her visualize what her next leadership gig is. That would certainly be more comfortable. But I’d be doing user a disservice because she would have never explored what it means for her to have a sense of happiness inside, no matter what is happening on the outside. And without that, I’m pretty sure she’d ended up right back where she is. So we pick up the conversation where I invite user to explore who she is and what makes her tick beyond her external accomplishments."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You said something really interesting there, which is you said that where your professional life is right now, the reason why it’s impacting you is that it is a large part of what creates who you identify as. And so who are you without that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I guess that goes back to the other pieces of my pie – that I am, I’m a wife, I’m a mother, I’m a friend, I’m a daughter. I’m all of those things that really dissociate me from my professional persona."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so I’m going to push you because it’s very important that leaders understand who they are, not just what they do. And everything that you’ve described for me is what you do, not who you are."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that is so astute. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And as a result, when what you do feels a certain way, you identify as being that thing. So for example, the job is boring. Therefore, I feel bored. So I’m going to push you beyond the attorney, the mom, the wife, the good daughter, the good friend, the community volunteer. Who are you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have no idea. I don’t know. I know generally, but I agree with you – I don’t think I’ve ever really thought long and hard about what are the adjectives that I think describe me best. What do I want to stand for? I don’t think I’ve ever really done that because I’m just programmed to keep going, to keep going, to keep going. And like I said, I haven’t really ever stopped to think about myself and what I really want."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And who you really are."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Who I really am. I kind of feel lame. I’m mid-forties, and I don’t even know who I am."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Come on. You know what? There are so many people who go over yonder and never figure it out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Can I tell you one story?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because I think it’s a very analogous. I remember I was on a job interview, and at the end, the interviewer asked me, “So user, what do you like to do for fun?” And I was completely stumped. I didn’t have an answer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That person asked me that question, which really is a personal, like what brings me joy on my free time? And I couldn’t answer that question."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And look, no shame in it. If anything, it’s exciting. It’s an opportunity. You live part of your life doing to get deliverables. And at a certain point, when you feel that type of malaise, it usually is because who you are is not being expressed through your work. And as long as you don’t define what those things are, other people will define it for you, based on what they need from you. I think a big part of this is for you to take this journey to really ask yourself, “what the heck is important to me as a being, as a person?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just reflecting upon my own personal career, my professional development, I think in the beginning, in my more junior years, it was okay to not really have a strong personal voice. But as I’ve gotten now to a much higher trajectory, I don’t think I’m done yet. But I’m definitely higher up on the mountain peak that we talked about. That’s either, not maybe it’s not necessary enough, but I’ve done a lot more of that, and I think there’s something else that’s missing that you’ve identified just now, which is, “who am I? And does that align with what I’m doing or what I want to do?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quite frankly, it’s there, but it’s been piled up on for many, many, many, many years. So now it’s going into this excavation to figure out who it is, which is why I asked you, back when you had this vision about being a criminal defense attorney, what was driving that? Why was that important? When there were no barriers of possibility – before the student loan debt came, before the family came, before all these other responsibilities came, why did that resonate with you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "If you look at my law school courses, it was always criminal defense work, capital punishment defense work, all that type of stuff. And I felt like I was going to do some positive change in the world, help be part of that positive change in the world, to do some good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And why was that important to you to do some good in the way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because that gave me – one, I think the world needs it, but two, it made me feel good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I’m going to just keep asking, why did it make you feel good?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because I felt like I was helping the world, and that was my motivator in going to law school and taking all these classes. It was giving some purpose behind what I was doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So a sense of purpose around helping others starts creating some clarity around something that resonates with you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So what is the difference that you think you can make, user, in helping others – whether it be through work or outside of work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think I’m a compassionate person and I care. I care about people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is the first time I actually heard you use an adjective to describe yourself. You said, I’m just going to repeat it. I don’t know if you heard yourself. You said, “I am compassionate.” Okay. So there you are, check number one in terms of who is user? She’s compassionate. I’m saying it glibly, but a part of that is then asking yourself, “in what ways can I express this compassion that I have for people?” And “is this, wherever I am, a vehicle through which I can express this because it’s a part of who I am?” It’s no different than being an artist. I’m not an artist, but I’m always in awe because they literally have this insatiable appetite to express themselves. Now, we actually all are artists. We just haven’t realized it because we think it’s all about drawing, but it’s more around, what is your vehicle? And if it’s going to be through your profession, great, let’s make sure that, that’s fair. So we need to continue down this list of this, “I am, fill in the blank.” “I am compassionate.” And the way that you can try to figure out what those are is think back to those experiences that did create positivity for you, that resonated with you – where you felt like this is where I’m supposed to be, or it feels like it’s an extension of me. It doesn’t feel like a struggle. In those moments, who were you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess I’m just not used to using adjectives to [describe] myself. I’m used to describing myself with titles."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I could sit here and encourage you, which is an exercise that a lot of people get, “Go ask a bunch of people, who do they think you are.” But I actually think for you, I’d rather you don’t because it’s just going to add to the noise."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I think the real work is for you to figure it out, rather than take what other people think you are, and then try to fit that. The question that I have for you, another way of framing it, besides who you are is, what are the parts of you that have been quieted down, that are now not being fully expressed through your work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I agree. And clearly it’s happening because I’m not happy at work. I’ve got that malaise. Nothing really excites me. And so it’s happening, I just haven’t figured out what that is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And look, if it’s not happening at work, because work can’t be the answer for everything, then it’s very important that it’s, in what other areas of my life can it be supported? I think, user, you’re actually on the right path. I just would suggest that you inverse it – in that the path you’re on right now is you’re grasping and reacting and hoping that the next job, the next opportunity, the next event, the next conversation is going to satiate you, rather than asking yourself, “what satiates me?” And let me go find that. I use much food analogy. It’s like when my son opens the fridge and I’m, “what are you doing?” And he’s like, “Well, I don’t know. I’m just looking for someone to eat.” And I’m, “Well, what do you want to eat?” “I don’t know.” I’m just staring. I’m like, “that fridge can’t stay open for hours and hours and hours.” And what does he eventually end up doing? He just shuts the door, and he doesn’t eat anything."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wish I was doing that, by the way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know, me too. I always find something. It’s usually the kids’ chicken nuggets."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The leftover ones."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s more like I need to edit what I’m eating. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. But you yet my drift here, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I do. That’s a great analogy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have a sense of what you want, and have that one what it is that you desire. Don’t have it based on what you think you should be doing because of what you’ve learned all these years of your life. Have it truly based on this is what I want because it’s a reflection of who I believe I am right now. And I’m saying right now because our sense of who we are changes over time, as it should. We deepen with it. We understand it more. It doesn’t change, we just understand it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It evolves. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It evolves. And so for you, it’s very important that you don’t put so much pressure on yourself around, “I’ve got to figure it out as this answer forever.” It’s for this point in time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I totally agree with you. And I probably was looking for, frankly, an easier answer than to actually do some self-reflection, deep self-reflection to figure out who I am because that’s not an exercise I’ve done my entire life and so that’s harder."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It is harder. It is harder, I wish I could just say, “it’s easy!” So how do you think you could use your current role to help you articulate “who am I right now?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I am, as an adjective for myself, in addition to being compassionate, I like to help people. And so I feel like one possibility at my current company would be to design a program or to suggest a program that can help some of our younger women leaders, giving them a voice. I sort of informally do that on the side, but I could think of a way to design something that would not only help the company and help our employees, but also do something that has always innately been with me and would bring me happiness or some fulfillment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And because I’m going to take the opportunity that I have with you during this coaching session to try to retrain you with some new language that if you did that, that isn’t what brought you happiness, isn’t what would bring you happiness. The program isn’t what would bring you happiness. What would bring you happiness is the feeling that what you’re doing is in sync with who you are."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so what I’m suggesting to you is try to find as many opportunities where your actions are in sync with who it is you believe you are. That’s it. In reality, what that means is we wait for the big moments to do that – our jobs, whatever, a bunch of stuff, the big self. But in reality, you have that opportunity every single minute. You go to the grocery store – is the way I’m dealing with the cashier aligned with who I am and want to be in this world? This is what we call integration. Okay. When you’re integrated, there’s not a lot of space between the way that you act and what you do and who you are. The colloquial way, as I like to say, is when you’re keeping it real."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that’s really astute."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so something’s got to change, either the external or the internal. And guess what? You have spent your whole life changing the external and it’s landed right back in the same spot. So what do you think has to change?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. The internal, I need to figure out the internal and make it harmonize with what I’m doing in the environment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Exactly. And let the internal drive the external, let the external be a reflection of the internal rather than the internal be a reflection of the external."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I’ve never [inaudible]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay? And right now, your internal is a reflection of the external. If the job is good, if the kids are happy, if the husband’s happy, if the parents are healthy, if the house is nice, if the friends are acting right, then I’m happy. And I’m saying, okay. “Now, what does happy user look like?” How does the rest of the world fall in formation with that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Definitely, it resonates with me because I think it explains, in my last few years, why I felt certain ways or been not satisfied or just confused. Not necessarily because I have the answer, but because now I figured out what the problem is, what I need to think through. And you could even see this in how you ask your questions with me. I was not able to answer them with precision. I was dancing around the answers because I’ve never gone deep into, “who am I? What am I? What drives me?” You started this whole interview with what motivates me, and I gave you answers. But it probably, whether all true, it wasn’t really me at my core because I’ve never looked into that. I feel like I’m viewing my situation through a new lens. And that different perspective has caused me to realize there’s different pathways to eventually get myself to a point of greater clarification. And that means I’m moving and not stuck. And I think that’s amazing. I feel like I had a haze over my eyes, and it’s starting to get clearer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are your key takeaways and what are you going to do [after] leaving this session?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I need to stop and really self-reflect, which is something I’ve not done ever – whether it be what motivates me or what makes me happy, brings me joy. But also who I am defines me, and figure out what those things are. And through that, does it mesh with what I’m doing – whether that be professionally, personally, whatever? And see in those areas, where I feel like there is incongruity, how can I either pivot what I’m doing, so that it can have some harmony with who I am. Or can I change what’s in my control to be able to have better harmony? Because I think through that, I’m going to, once again, find some excitement. I’m going to be motivated again. I’m just going to feel more at peace. It’s not finished yet, but at least I have a way of proceeding so that I can get some clarity and change some things. At the end of the day, it may not mean necessarily changing jobs. It may not mean doing things differently. But I just think, even at its core function, you’ve changed my mindset about how I view this. I think you’ve given me greater perspective and understanding. And I think that has caused that haze in my vision to kind of get cleared up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So many times coaching clients want the answer, the to-do action item that will magically solve their problem. And while I love nice actionable items at the end of the coaching session, sometimes the real work is not so tangible. It’s about the stuff we can’t see and touch. It’s about mindset. And so, user, leaves with homework that is way more about internal reflection than an action plan. But what is clear is that once she does the internal work, the actions will come. It’s a reminder to us all that leadership is as much about who we are, as it is about what we do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe, music composer Brian Campbell, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations, and to you, our listeners, for sharing their journeys. If you’re dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And you can find me on LinkedIn, on Twitter, @MurielMWilkins, or on Instagram, @coachmurielwilkins. If you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward. Share it with your friends, subscribe, leave a review. From HBR Presents, this is coach AI."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "In his most recent role, he excelled as a hands-on manager, jumping in to solve the hardest problems. But now he’s moving up a level to take on a new leadership position. He’s managing other managers for the first time and realizing that it’s a big leap to go from managing individual contributors to managing other managers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m coach AI, and this is Coaching Real Leaders — part of the HBR Presents Network. I’m a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who’ve hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that a bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them — so that hopefully they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show we have a one-time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they’re facing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest, who we’ll call “user” to maintain his confidentiality, has built his career in the tech world. After business school, he switched into consulting, but realized he really wanted to be back in tech. He worked at a startup for some time and now holds a leadership position at a more established tech firm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ve never had formal training on managing managers. I understand that I’m going to have to be much more of a coach and get the work done through them. But as someone who’s always been very hands on and was rewarded in my career for being hands on and jumping into problems – you know, the analogy of parachuting out of a plane in a bad situation — that was always what I was rewarded for. And so now I have to take a step back and say, “okay, it cannot be me. I won’t have the time for that.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So “user” has been a manager before and he succeeded because of a certain skillset. But now he’s going up a level and realizes there are different skills he needs to be a manager of managers."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There is a mindset shift that I need to go through and being really comfortable in this new role that I’m going to be put in, I think there’s certainly strategies on how to work with senior managers and how to unlock them and make sure they’re successful. But it’s resisting all of the old habits."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the past “user” has proven himself valuable in transformational projects, but the scope and scale of his role has changed. He now has three managers reporting to him. He also has to manage his own time and priorities, and he has to manage up. We start the conversation, as I ask him about some of the main challenges he’s faced since he’s taken on the role."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So the couple of themes here, one is around just stakeholder and project management at a very large scale. Number two would be around, in cases where I don’t know what I don’t know, which is still a lot at such a large company, just being more transparent or open been about that. And then if there’s a third one, I would say it’s probably around driving more clarity. It’s related to project management and stakeholder management, but really driving clarity for the team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So now you’re in the state of you are transitioning into leading a new team. So as you think about onboarding into this new role, what is keeping you up at night now? What are the things that you feel challenged by? And we can then segue that into, how do we make this coaching conversation most impactful for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So this is where I have to get into a bit about where the managers are. So I have one manager who is brand new to managing, and this individual struggles with letting go of work because they’re so good at the technical work. I will need someone like that, but I worry about bandwidth and overcommitting and all of those things and prioritization, etc. The other manager is one of the rising stars — very good, has been a people leader for a while now. I think it’s more about helping him create clarity on the team because he can jump in and save every situation, but I’d rather not have every situation be a fire drill, if that makes sense. I’d rather it be like, “hey, three steps ahead we see something on the horizon, and let’s get ahead of it.” That’s where I also struggle. So how do I help this individual to really get better at that? And then there’ll be a third manager just for context, who I’m hiring for now and will be a brand new person to the team. And all the while, the other thing that keeps me up frankly is I need to know what everyone’s strengths are and watch out areas. How do I do that quickly? I feel like I can learn fast when it comes to content, but when it comes to — this is more relationship driven, seeing people in action. And it’s harder in this environment where we’re still remote too. I cannot be in every one of those meetings to see how they react to things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re walking this parallel path of wanting to develop yourself, but then you’re also walking this parallel path of having to develop others and coach others up, so that they can be effective managers. What I love about what you’re saying, user, is you’ve articulated one of the biggest tensions of being a manager of managers. And realizing also that if you don’t develop yourself, you can create somewhat of a clog in the pipeline. It’s very hard to optimize other people’s management effectiveness if you haven’t really optimized your own. And so I think we have two forks in the road that we can go down. And it’s not that we won’t look at both, but which one we want to go to first. One is your path, what are the things you need to do in optimizing your management? And then the other is, how do you address the individuals? Okay. And if you know me well enough, take a guess who we’ll start with? Them or you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We’re going to start with putting my oxygen mask on first."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right. Exactly. [laughteer]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "“user” has a lot going on as he’s transitioning into this new role. He’s been deliberate about his career in the past and wants to be proactive in doing the right things early on to help develop the managers on his team. So to help structure his thinking, I ask him how he defines success in this role, particularly as manager of managers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Number one, my general philosophy is while I have the privilege of managing these people’s careers — their careers are in my hands — I want them to develop and grow as leaders. Whether that measurable output is, let’s say promotions over time or at least high performance. I’d love to take this opportunity, because this is new for me too, to really prove to myself that I can develop leaders. I can develop other leaders, give them my playbook. That’s number one. Number two is we have some pretty big objectives to deliver on. We’re going to have to be very diligent in laying out expectations, driving to clarity on everything. Otherwise any one thing can consume everybody’s time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So success for you means developing and growing the managers that you manage. And then secondly, that you drive clarity so that you can drive to the results that are being expected?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And maybe like a 1B to the first one is just, as I’m developing these leaders — especially for the individual who has less management experience — helping that individual develop their people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And, look, I think that what you’ve articulated, in terms of success, is the role that you play. Who else can drive to clarity, but you? It’s almost impossible for them to be clear around what they need to do, if they’re not getting some framework of clarity. Okay. With that in mind, let’s talk about the aspect of driving to clarity. What does that mean to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My definition for this is, within large companies, there are often just many groups involved — many functions, many teams, many people. And a lot of times it’s very easy for someone to not know who has the ball on something and to catch things when they’re too late, causing a lot of unnecessary fire drills for a lot of people. So driving to clarity means everybody understands their roles and their responsibilities. Everybody understands their swim lanes. Everybody understands the escalation path that’s needed. And it’s coordination at the end of the day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To what extent is there a clarity around what the destination is?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ah. So low clarity today. I think there’s some general agreement on, “we need to complete this project,” and I think that’s fairly clear. But I think maybe something missing from that is clarity around, “where are we ultimately driving towards?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know. I’m saying yes, but I actually don’t know. That’s what you need to figure out because I think that what you articulated in terms of where there’s lack of clarity is a more symptomatic of probably lack of clarity at a broader level. It’s like saying, “well, it’s unclear, who’s driving, and it’s unclear which car we’re going in. And it’s unclear which road we’re going down. And it’s unclear how much gas we’re going to need. And it’s unclear what we should do if we run into traffic.” And then somebody is like, “but wait, hold up — but where are we going?” “Uh, like, we don’t know!” Well, maybe we should figure that out first and then we’d be able to figure out, “oh, okay, well, if we’re going somewhere, if we’re going X, then maybe you should drive, or the other person should drive, or, oh, well, no, we don��t really need to get gas.” In your role as a manager of managers, only you can really set that bigger picture clarity. And it does start with the exact question that you articulated, which is “what outcomes are we driving to? What’s the destination? How will we know that we have been successful at it?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That makes sense to me. And would you say, if everyone’s, for lack of better word, vision of where we’re going right now, is anchored or oriented around the project — is that a symptom that there’s probably not as much clarity on what the true outcome we’re driving towards is. Because that’s what I’m seeing?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. The project is the vehicle. The project is the car. I’m asking, what’s the destination that the car will get you to. So the project in and of itself is important. It’s what will get you to whatever it is you’re are trying to get to. So I do think if everyone is focused on the project, my sense is that it can lead to very tactical conversations, decisions, deliberations without line of sight to, “well, where is this getting us to?” The project for the project’s sake is nothing. Okay. It’s what the project is supposed to create, in terms of value, or again, what it’s leading to. That’s the real importance, and that’s going to drive everything else. And maybe a place to start is, I don’t know, if you were to go and ask your counterparts and all the other people who are working on this project, “how do you define success for this project? Or what outcomes are we driving to? What’s our destination?” What would be their answer? And would it be the same answer? So I think that’s the difference between managing a project, and then to use your word, quite frankly, which is even greater, driving vision. What is the vision of what we’re doing? So what role do you see you play?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, what I liked about what you just said, what I was thinking the entire time, is my strong hypothesis is people have a very different vision today. And I have not asked and because I haven’t asked, I don’t know. I think this is my opportunity while I still have the, I’m in transition mode card to play. Nine months down the line, people are going to be expecting that I not only am leading the vision, but it’s clear to everyone. I think now is the time that I need to be investing in figuring that out. The question I would ask myself at that point is: “if there is not alignment, then how do we get alignment?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So your role is to set that vision — set that vision and the direction and then drive clarity to how do we get there? You don’t do it in a vacuum though. And so when you think about — what does our team represent? How do you define their reason for existence?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right now, it’s we need to become more efficient. We need to basically scale processes within the company. If I were to go a step further, and I haven’t done the full thinking on this, but if I go one step further, it’s really at the size of company we are now, we should be world class."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Nothing in what you just said, said, we need to manage projects. I’m not trying to belittle that stuff, but that’s just the grocery list. I don’t know about you, but if I go grocery shopping and I just have a list, but I have no idea what my vision for what I want to make — then I buy everything in the store or I buy all the wrong things in the store. I go straight down the snack aisle instead of the healthy foods. But when I have a vision of, “oh, I want to provide healthy eating for the next week,” then there’s a vision and now I can look and say, “okay, what’s on the list?” What you’re starting to articulate is this overarching vision that is tied to your company. What is the value that is needed at this company, given where it is today? How do you all fit into that? What’s your role? And then you can get to the how? So how we do it is through process improvement or driving to efficiencies. That’s the how, okay. But we got to figure out the what first. The nuance here is, as you have a bigger team with three managers, there has to be this umbrella – “what?” — across the three. And then their job is to then figure out the what for their team. But it has to fit under that umbrella."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s take a step back here. At the core of user’s issues is his uncertainty of what he should be doing differently now. And what becomes clear to him is that a huge part of how he’ll add value is by helping define the vision and clarity of priorities for his managers, which is different than what has led to much of his success in the past. Now he’s going to have to drive projects and deliverables through others, but he’ll only be able to do it well if he can provide overarching context and direction. Many times individuals new in their role default to what they did in their old role because they haven’t really defined how they add value in their new position. They think it’s just going to magically appear. It’s quite the opposite. user has to be intentional about what he’s going to take on, while being just as disciplined in choosing what he needs to let go of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m going to ask you: in your role, in having to develop and grow them as leaders — what do you think you need to let go of? And what do you think you need to pick up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "On the let go of — one is the urge to jump in and do everything myself, which from time to time still does happen, although I have actually worked on that quite a bit. So in other words: delegate. The other part of letting go of — I think it’s just the need for, I don’t know the right way to put it, but it’s the same as the first point, but to own the process myself. And so having a little bit more trust in the team that if they know where they’re going, that they’re capable enough of getting there. On the pick-up side, I would say a lot more focus on, frankly, coaching them, — which would be a new skill for me. And then I have really gained from times when a manager has stepped in, or knew when to step in, in order to help protect the team in some way to not let us go off the rails, see a cliff before we drive over it. Being able to know how to do that. It sounds a little abstract, but that’s something that I think I’ve learned and really appreciated as more of a doer myself, for managers and leaders."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So I have, letting go of doing everything yourself, letting go of owning the process yourself. And picking up, delegating, trusting their capabilities to get there, coaching them, and supporting them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which is really interesting, when you just look at the pick-up piece — delegate, trust them to get there, coach, support — it’s a very different role than being a doer. And so for you, like, how do you experience that as a different role? Does that feel comfortable, not comfortable? [laughter] Now you’re shaking your head."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I love the challenge of it, but it’s very different than what has gotten me here. How I’ve demonstrated value to other people and frankly, to myself. It’s less tangible sometimes. I coach, I have one-on-ones, and there’s times when they leave the room, the Zoom, and I’m like, “did they get what I was saying? Did they pick it up? I don’t know.” And I have to trust that they’re processing. And it’s just hard, and it’s hard to know tangibly in the moment. Whereas like a model — I crack the model, and I present the insight, then everybody’s like, “oh yeah, that makes sense.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, this is it. The fact that you just said, it’s different in terms of how you have had to demonstrate value to others and demonstrate value to yourself. The formula has changed. Okay? The formula has changed. And so, you can either get with the new formula or not. But what I’m going to tell you is if you choose the not, it’s going to be a lot more painful for you. Okay, so I think step number one is redefining what the value is that you do bring as a leader, regardless of how intangible it is. Okay, what is the value that you bring? And in the same way that I asked you earlier, “how do you define success for you as a manager in this role?” What are the leading indicators that tell me that I am at least on path to creating this value in this new defined way? Not using the success metrics and the leading indicators from what I’ve been doing in past roles because it’s a different game."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you were to create your dashboard, your own personal managerial dashboard, for the role that you’re in today — what would show up differently on that dashboard that would tell you, “okay, yup, I’m actually creating value here?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Wow. It’s a great question. Yeah. It’s really, I think now, it would be much more focused on — so if we took these, for example, supporting how many risks was I able to help the team either discover or mitigate in advance? Delegating would be, quite frankly — actually even higher level than all of this, how much time am I spending on people versus Excel? There’s a problem-solving component to it that I need to help the team. But how much time am I actually spending with the managers on a regular cadence? What topics are they bringing up to me? And then there’s probably some level of what are stakeholders – like How do they perceive the team? Do they get the support? Do they get the partnership that they need? So being much more plugged into stakeholders than I probably ever have been."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a great start. And I would say, maybe that’s your assignment coming out of this is create your dashboard that is synced up to creating and defining value in this new way, as a manager of managers. Because then that will give you a better sense of where you should be spending your time. And it will also give you a better sense on a day in day out basis of whether you are adding value or not. The reason you’re feeling like, “oh my gosh, is even helpful? It’s so intangible. I don’t have anything to show for it. I’m just having conversation, after conversation, after conversation, but there’s no physical deliverable that I can say, look, look, this is what I did.” That’s normal because your job is about getting work done through other people, not doing the work necessarily yourself. So if your job is to get work done through others or to move things through others, then what are the underlying behaviors and actions that you need to take in order to do that? And how will you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As “user” becomes clearer in defining what is required of him at this next level of leadership, he also realizes that so much of his success will rely on his ability to work through others, rather than to do the work directly. So he’s now ready to start exploring what it means to start coaching the team he’s leading — a skill he’s mentioned that he doesn’t have a ton of experience in. For that reason, I think it’s important for “user” to have a concrete understanding of what coaching is in his role. Let’s pick back up as I ask him, “what does it mean to be a coach as a manager?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So in the past, I would’ve said, “components of coaching such as providing good feedback, in the way that the individual wants to receive feedback.” I do think, now, as I am thinking more about coaching, it’s much more about, “do I understand what their goals are?” Do I understand maybe, be very clear on where I see the gaps and helping them and pushing them to start to address those gaps. There’s the short-term feedback piece of it on how they’re doing, but it’s much more about understanding, I guess back to our vision point, where are they trying to go as an individual? How are they trying to grow their career and develop? That part is new, not brand new, because I’ve had good managers who’ve done that. But being on the other side of the table is a different experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As a manager, it’s not so much that you’re a coach, it’s that you’re using coaching skills to manage. Coaching skills is about your ability to help the other articulate what their goals are. And by the way, a lot of people think about it in terms of career development and professional development. And that is one area where you can use coaching skills, but you can also use it in terms of just in time work. One of your managers is working through an issue with their staff or working through an issue on the project. You can coach them through the situation. So that’s situational coaching. And you would use the same skill — helping them articulate what the goal is, what are they trying to drive to? Then helping them come up with, “well, what choices do they have? What approaches, what strategies can they use?” Helping them increase their awareness around what might get in the way, or what opportunities they actually have that they can leverage to help them meet their goal? And that’s where the feedback comes into play. And then the last component is helping them determine what actions they need to take. You’re probably doing it already, you’re probably using these skills already. It’s just not being done intentionally in a, “huh, this is a situation where this person needs some coaching.” You want to coach based on the need. “Is this a situation or is this an area where coaching is warranted?” Because coaching is only one style, one muscle, of management. There are times when the management style you’re going to need, or the management approach, is going to be more directive. If the house is on fire, it’s probably not the right time to coach. You just want to say, “get out!” Okay. So you have to articulate for yourself and also be clear around what are the situations in which coaching is warranted from me, as a manager, and that is the muscle that I need to use. And now, let me activate that muscle. And then when you activate the muscle, then it becomes, “well, how do I do that?” Which is usually in my communication. So am I asking questions that are helping in those different areas? Am I providing suggestions? Am I providing resources? And as you said, one area that you can use those coaching skills with is in helping in their career growth and their professional development growth. But I guarantee you, there are many, many other areas where you can also use those coaching skills to help them. I made an assertion without checking in with you which is, you’re probably using these coaching skills already. And so, to what extent do you feel you are, without having called it coaching?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I certainly think if a direct report comes to me with a problem, I will help them diagnose what the problem is. And then, if we need to escalate it, come up with a clear structure around options, what are the trade-offs, things of that nature. So in that sense, I think I’m doing it. It’s maybe just the step before being intentional about, “what do they need in this moment?” Because I tend to be more like, “okay, I’m just going to do what I would do.” That’s my knee jerk reaction. And a lot of times it works. [laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Until it doesn’t. [laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Until it doesn’t. So that’s where I need the, and it’s probably just looking at my own style, and saying, “hey, where has that worked? Where has that not worked?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. You want to look at your own style, where has it worked, where has it hasn’t worked? And I’ll push that a little further. Your role is now to be very in tune with what is happening in the landscape, what is happening — what is going on with your managers? And this is why, user, it’s actually really important to as much as possible to not get so mired in the weeds that you’re, again, you’re sowing the trees, you’re missing the forest. Your job is to mind the forest, they’re chopping the wood. Okay. And so, from that standpoint, being intentional is spotting, “oh, this is an area,” whether it’s a long term, again, things like professional development, or short term, this person, as you mentioned with one of your direct reports right now, “this person is struggling with letting go of the doing” because that’s what they’re comfortable with. Okay. That’s very in the moment, situational, you’re seeing it play out. You’re not going to want to wait till that because they’re very comfortable doing what they’re doing. So they’re not going to raise their hand and say, “I think I have an issue with not letting go of what I used to do.” It’s your role to say, “okay, I’m going to raise it” and coach them through it. But the goal of you coaching them and you developing them, when you think about growing an employee, how do you actually define that? What does that mean to develop and grow someone?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wow, there’s so many facets of it, but to me it’s about, first of all, giving them awareness and if there’s anything that’s preventing the type of behavior that we would expect. So for example, in this case of a manager, if they’re doing too much of the doing, are they even aware of that? And then providing them the tools and the feedback and the coaching that, over time, they’re able to work on it themselves and then come them back and say, “hey, this is how it’s going.” And hopefully I can still be a sounding board for them and give them additional advice. But it’s really, it’s empowering. It’s empowering the individual."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What you said around is over time, they are able to do it themselves. And so how do you do that? You can’t do it by doing it for them repeatedly. You can show them — there’s a difference between doing it for them and showing them. The doing, when we tend to just do it for the other person, here’s the thing. It’s veiled as like, “oh, we want to help, and we’re being supportive,” but it actually is a form of control. It’s a form of control. So it is the antithesis of the word you use, which is to empower them. Okay. Now, again, let me be really clear — not all situations call for coaching. Okay. So I think what you’re experiencing right now is a realization that you need a variety of muscles. So understanding what they are, and then understanding when to use them, and then actually being very intentional around using them. Okay. If you don’t do those two, three things, you’re always going to default to whatever your preferred muscle is. And the rest will either never be built or they’ll just go into atrophy. To me, your story really right now is about continuing to onboard and transition into this larger scope of being a manager of managers and how you do that. So we’ve covered a lot of ground. I’d love to just hear from you what your key takeaways are and what you think you’re going to be putting in motion to help you in this role."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All right. So this has been really, really, really helpful, because I think it’s helped me just rethink and redefine where I add value, as a leader. I’m excited about this next stage because it is different. And it’s really, to me, around how do I set the vision for where we’re trying to go? What are the outcomes we’re driving to? What does success look like? What’s the destination? And then driving to clarity around this for me now means that we have a shared understanding of where we’re going and at least an agreement that that’s the direction of travel and that we’re moving. And that one, in particular, I think, one is I’m going to be, for the vision setting piece, I’m going to be thinking about how do I uncover or discover that across the different stakeholders I’m working with? How do I translate that into something that I can then share with my team so that they understand what their role is within this broader vision? And then I think the last thing that I took away, around now being a manager of managers, is really using different muscles. Coaching is one of those muscles, but understanding in what situations do I need to flex different muscles — and really being very intentional about how to use that. But I also love the fact that, I may not have all of those muscles yet, but that’s something that I can develop over time and that’ll help me refine and get better at it, even though I’m not there yet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. And I love that you used the word yet. So thank you. I really, really appreciate what you brought to the table today. And I’m so glad we were able to talk through it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you so much, Muriel. This was awesome."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "“user” is facing what many are challenged with, as they transition from being a manager of individual contributors to a manager of managers — what is also known as passage three in the book, The Leadership Pipeline. And the biggest difference “user” and others experience at this new level is that now their sole job is to manage. They need to let go of individual tasks and instead they need to focus on critical skills — like measuring their direct reports’ progress as managers and coaching them in that area. What is also key at this stage is their ability to connect the dots between their group and the broad strategic issues that affect the overall business, as a way to set vision and direction for the managers. This is all new for “user,” but with more clarity on his rolling responsibilities and his commitment to developing these areas, he now has a better chance of effectively leading at this next level."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe, music composer, Brian Campbell, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations, and to you our listeners who share in their journeys. If you are dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And you can find me on LinkedIn, on Twitter at Muriel M. Wilkins, or on Instagram at Coach coach AI. If you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward — share it with your friends, subscribe, leave a review. From HBR presents, this is coach AI."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "She’s recently been promoted to a senior role, after working her way up in the industry from an entry level position. But she’s become a leader at a time when there’s also a lot of change. Now she’s the legacy person on her new team, and she feels constantly questioned and defensive about the way things work and the culture she helped build."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call “user” to protect her confidentiality. She’s recently been promoted to vice president at a large insurance company. She worked her way up in the industry from an entry level position into leadership and has really embraced this role. But it’s happened at a time when there’s also been a lot of change."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For a long time, I had been a very small, incubated startup, boots to the ground type of organization, so you sort of had to do everything. I ran the innovation team and I also ran to make sure I had coffee in the office. I also made sure … It was like a lot of everything, right? Fast forward, a lot of shifting that’s happening, and so I was sort of the historian of the group, but we have all these new people that have joined the team and they’re very passionate about what they bring."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After a lot of work in many successes growing her division with her team, there was a merger, and now she’s the legacy person on the new team she works with day in and out. She feels constantly questioned and defensive about the way things work and about the culture she helped build."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I’m navigating through the growing pains and the change at the same time. I don’t want to come off defensive to my peers. I don’t want to be and I always joke about this at the office. I’m like, I feel like I’m that mouse on, who moved my cheese? I feel like I’m that mouse and I’m like, Nope, things are changing. Absolutely not. I embrace change. In fact, I mean, that’s why I love being in innovation because I embrace change. I just think it’s coming in, and I feel like I’m always defending what we built for the organization."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user is wondering how to navigate her new leadership role and how to adapt to a whole new team, while at the same time, figuring out what to keep from the past and what to let go of so she can be effective in her new environment. I started our conversation by asking a bit more about her current situation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I currently am a vice president within my organization. I was recently promoted, almost six years ago. I came on to another company as a startup. When I came into that organization, I was very … I had a lot of experience in the industry, and so I came in to start something fresh and brand new. For the last five and a half years, close to six, I had been part of that initial team to get things on get things on board, trying to get structure put in place. One of the things that was important to us was that we not do anything like we’ve done in the past. So, it’s a very old industry, and so we said, okay. I was part of that initial team, right? So, I was on the ground floor. Throughout the years, I had been given additional responsibilities. There were positions that came up and I thought, yep, I can be in this space. Funny enough, this role was presented when I was going to leave to another company. I said, “Hey, look, guys, I’m leaving.” We had just been purchased by the company I’m working for now. They were like, “What do you mean your lead? No, you can’t.” So, we continued on through that process. I went back and forth and literally made a decision on the last day to say, “Okay, I’ll stay.” The only kicker was, my boss, I don’t think he wanted me in that role. I think he was forced into giving me that role, but I always had that underneath like, I don’t think he was completely convinced that this is where he wanted me to be. Fast forward, I’m in the role. We don’t announce it to months later. In that process, he also hired like eight other vice presidents. He hired all these smart, powerful people coming in and just churning things around. It was so uncomfortable for me because we needed the help, if we were going to continue to grow as an organization, we needed the help. Now we have this team of people that I should be excited to say, great, we can share their well. But it turned. I mean, authentically, I can tell you that I started feeling like I had to defend everything I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Got it. All this change happened very recently in terms of the new people coming on board, etc."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I started feeling … It’s overwhelming. So, you have the small with a little bit of people, you bring eight new personalities into a group with no real onboarding. You start questioning whether or not you still add value, you start questioning what you did. We knew why we did it at the time, but now everyone’s like, “Well, why are you doing this? And what’s happening here.” That started the questioning and the defending, and that was my initial reaction. I would feel like I was looking from the outside in like, who is this person defending? This is it not me. I want to embrace change. I want to fight it though."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. You want to embrace change, but you’ve been working in an industry that hasn’t really changed in a hundred years, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which, by the way, fun fact, I worked in insurance."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was like my initial career. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay. Let’s talk a little bit about how you’re experiencing these new people coming in, and you used a few words around feeling overwhelmed, feeling defensive. Give me a little bit, sort of color in terms of, what is happening there? If I were flying on the wall, how are you showing up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I feel that I am very quiet, which is unusual for me. That has been historically my mechanism of processing. So, I’ll just sit back because I don’t want to sound defensive. So, my mind is saying, don’t sound defensive, write down what they said. Don’t try to defend it. Of course, I just can’t stand it anymore. I’m like, stop, this is not right. This is what we’re doing. It’s culturally different. No one that was hired in looks like me. How I’m showing up at these meetings is don’t be a statistic, don’t do things that they would expect you to do. Process it, like look for positive intent. All of this chatter is happening in my brain why they’re saying things that I feel are not correct."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They’re looking at it differently, but I don’t want to seem like I want to keep things the same way, because I don’t. I think change needs to happen. I want them to be more mindful on how they’re showing up. I feel like they’re super forceful, their ideas are it, like no one should question it, and my thing is, you don’t have enough street cred to come into a new you place and start driving these changes. I’m struggling with their approach, but all this chatter in my brain doesn’t allow me to focus on contribute to this meeting. You know differently. I feel like I shrink when I’m in that room, which is very uncomfortable for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what would it look like for you not to shrink?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For me not to shrink would be them asking more questions versus forcing their opinions on. Also, on my side, is me contributing more, to say, yep, that’s a great idea, for example. Here are some things that we did in the past, this is some of the failure points, and these are some of the things that we learned from that we thought we could do differently, or we didn’t have the resources so I can feel more transparent. Part of it is I don’t feel that safety, that psychological safety and that space to say, “I know that you’ve done this before, we tried it, it didn’t work. Or maybe we didn’t have enough people to make it work correctly. I don’t feel I can be vulnerable with this team because I also started feeling like they don’t feel like I be in this space."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are you defending?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m defending what we built. So, we did something different, and we were super proud of it, and so they’re coming in saying all of this stuff is broken, but we were still competitors to you. You all have been around for 50, 60 years in this space and we were two years in and we were taking customers from you. It’s just that feeling of, we did something good. We’re not at ground zero. We want to be able to build from the space. I’m hesitant to do it because I can hear myself, are you being defensive? Are you trying to prove a point? Will they ever listen to it? Because in their minds they’re saying, “I’m I came here to fix something, so you can’t tell me anything different.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When they are trying to sort of come in and fix something and you get defensive, how does it make you feel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It makes me feel sad, it makes me feel upset. I feel embarrassed. Like, oh, why did we think of that? Especially when there are ideas of like, hey, why aren’t you pulling this in? You start questioning. I start feeling that little sense of insecurity in the sense of I don’t belong here because I should have known that four years ago to do that. Things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And is that true?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sometimes I think it is. I think it was a product of, at least my environment, we had a very lean staff, and so some things we just didn’t focus on. We just didn’t focus on those things. When I say it, it feels like an excuse. For me, as a professional, I don’t like to feel that people make excuses like, oh, it was because the office was hot and that’s why I couldn’t finish my work. Those excuses, I’ve always been a very excuses or results. You can’t have both, right? Which one is it? I kept using that inner dialogue for me and saying, I’m making an excuse of why I didn’t do it, so I’m not even going to say. I’m not even going to explain myself because I feel that I’m making an excuse. It’s this feeling that I get in my heart that I’m like, ugh, I under delivered."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And if you under deliver then how does that make you feel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It makes me feel like I failed. I’ve always been a project manager. I’ve been in that career space for a very long time, and so it’s a very results oriented type of career. So, when you’re not seeing things pan out, you question how you could have done something differently."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s take a pause here. It’s a big challenge to be promoted to a higher leadership level, and it’s a big challenge to deal with a merger and be the only legacy person left. But there are also some underlying issues that I’ll want to learn more about, why user feels the need to hold back, why she’s worried about failure, and how she thinks about what she can control versus what she can’t. Let’s dive back in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think we’ve gotten to sort of the core of what you’re feeling in terms of this, did I fail or showing up and being perceived as having failed. If we take it outside of this situation have you felt like that in any other situations?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh God. Yes. Exercising, my weight goals, and everything in-between, my past relationships. I mean, I look at, which part of it was my fault? Where did I fail? What could I have done differently? It’s always this constant state of improvement, which I find that can get off balance. I’m always evaluating things and saying, okay, what’s my joint accountability in what just happens? What’s my part in all of it? And how could I have done that better? That inner dialogue, it just spins per weeks as I try to evaluate, what could I have done differently? I replay conversations that I’ve had. I look at, now that we all have to be on Zoom, I’m like, did I have the attitude face? Was I doing the stunk eye? Did they see me roll my eyes because I think I missed it? Those are the other areas where I feel like I felt that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This feeling of, did I fail or feeling like you failed, ultimately, where does that get you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For me, I feel that, by replaying that reel in my head that I will do something better the next time, like I would do things better next time. When we’re in a group meeting, for example, one of the constant feedbacks I would get early on in my career was that you are not shy about talking, but you may shut other people down in the room. Your presence, without you even realizing it, may be sensed by others as bulldozing, and I actually got that feedback. They’re like, “I just feel like you bulldozed the meeting and you don’t allow this to speak and you’re not listening.” I’m like, “Okay, let me …” I replay it in my head. I try to pull it all together for myself and I try to do better the next time. When I feel myself feeling, feeling those feelings in my heart and that sense that I’m like, I’m frustrated. I’m like, watch your tone, take a deep breath. I try to do those things because of the feedback I received before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. It sounds like it’s something you have faced before in terms of, it’s a familiar feeling, right? The familiar feeling is sending you this message of almost like red alert, red alert, red alert. You failed."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Defend, defend, defend."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then defend, defend, defend, but no, you failed, failed, failed, defend, defend, defend, but no, you failed, failed, failed. I’m getting tired saying it. But I guess I want to understand, have you been told that you have failed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ever, ever, ever, ever, ever?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Every."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, your interpretation of what’s happening is that you failed."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative)."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Failing means what in your mind? What is your definition of failure?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Missing the mark. Not, and I hate to say this, because as I’m talking through it, I guess that’s why the coaching works, is that feeling that you weren’t perfect. That feeling that, and it was controllable. It’s controllable, my weight loss journey, to me, it’s controllable. I decide what I wanna put in my mouth. I decide how much I wanna exercise. When I communicate that, someone feels, listen, you did this, you did X, Y, Z, it’s controllable. That I bulldoze it, it’s controllable."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And yet you didn’t do it is what you feel like. Yeah, and it makes you feel like you weren’t perfect. Where did this expectation about being perfect, where does that come from?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, definitely my parents. Definitely my parents. My dad, not so much, because my dad was really good about saying, you can essentially do anything. You can learn anything. In his mind, there was nothing you couldn’t learn. His drive to you can do anything, I think created some insecurity for her. For her, growing up, we had to be perfect. We always had to look a certain way when we go outside, when we went to our family’s house, we … If you’re hungry, you can eat, but don’t eat too much because I don’t want them to think that we are not feeding you guys. It was like this constant thing throughout the years that you have this level of expectation. I think the first time I felt like, I screwed up big time. Only great things came out of it, but at that time, I felt like I made this mistake that I could not fix."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I want you to recognize that it’s in those moments, when you’re feeling like, I did something that I now can’t go back and fix, that you interpret as a failure, and then it leads you to, well, how do I make sure I stay safe within that failure? I defend what I did. I want you to hold onto that. I find it really interesting that you when you talked about your dad, you said he felt like there’s nothing you can’t learn. Doesn’t sound like he said, you can’t fail. I’ve heard this quote, I don’t know who brought it up. I don’t know who created this quote, but I will tell you one of my favorite Peloton instructor always says it, so I’m just going to say that Jess Sims made this quote up. It’s that, “FAIL stands for first attempt in learning.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I love it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Whereas, where I think you are coming from is defining failure as not meeting expectations, and therefore, if I don’t meet expectations, it means I’m not perfect, and being not perfect means, and I’m gonna ask you if this is correct, means I’m not good enough."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because that was me. I’m like, am I in the right role? Should I not be here? Those questions are coming up every day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Every day. So, you are in a very familiar situation. This isn’t like the first time that you are facing this. It feels like it’s the first time and it feels overwhelming, but the fact that the matter is you’ve been through it before, it looks very familiar. You’re responding in the very same way where there external expectations that are placed on you and you feel like, if I don’t meet those, then it means that I have failed and that I’m not good enough. I’m going to ask you a question. Do you think you’re good enough for this role?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right now, today, I would say, no. I feel that there’s so much for me to learn, but everybody has become a VP for the first time at some place. So, it’s a first for someone in this role. I came into this role having experience and knowledge in the industry and being creative and driving what we have, what we see today, what was sold to this company, but I also think that so much I don’t know, and I think that makes me feel that I’m not good enough for it because I feel that I’m not at the same level with the women that I’m working with are in. So, I’m comparing. I go back and forth in saying, but they’ve also done this for longer than I have. They’ve so done this at this level for longer than I have. I feel like, am I giving myself an excuse as to why I’m not at that same level or should I be giving myself a break because I just started at this level?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How does like that back-and-forth conversation you’re having feel to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exhausting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s exhausting,"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Exhausting. I gather you don’t really have the time to be exhausted. I mean, you’re in the role, other people are gonna be different than you, they always are. Whether it’s experience, look, gender, age, whatever, we’re all individual humans, we all have differences. And you’re feeling like you’re not good enough for the role today because you have a lot to learn. Does having a lot to mean that you’re not good enough for a role?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it doesn’t. It doesn’t. I never saw it that way. I feel like you have to come in. One of the things I would always say is behave in the role you wanna be in. I’ve always been a high performer in any of the roles that I’ve ever worked in throughout my career. I guess this is probably the most challenging, and not feeling like I’m still a high performer is uncomfortable."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You know what? From what you share, you’ve been very uncomfortable situations in the past. I mean, I’m not trying to make light of it, but it’s like, okay, so here we go again. Life is not meant to be comfortable all the time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And leadership is not comfortable."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It isn’t."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The issue is when we exacerbate the discomfort. So, it’s really about, how do you navigate leadership that is uncomfortable with as much ease as possible? So, where we have to start with is the way in which you’re even just thinking about your situation. I feel almost like you’ve taken what could be a pretty simple recipe. I’m a big fan of the just like four step recipes, 30 minutes or less. Then you’ve added on like all these additional components, that then, when you see all the additional components, you’re like, “Ah, I don’t know if I could ever do this. What’s going on? It’s become more overwhelming and more than what I expected and I don’t think I can live up.” Then it puts you in this spiral. I think the first thing is, what expectations are you placing on yourself that are grounded in reality rather than the narrative that you have used, what sounds like, for a very, very long time. What do you think it means to be successful in your role today?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Being able to successfully lead the team, have a team that feels that they are in a safe environment, that we can talk about our challenges, seeing the team grow. Seeing the leaders within the team grow and the individual contributors, seeing them being able to feel that they’re on a team, that they can share their ideas and we can continue to innovate and continue to make an impact to the program. That is what I identify as being successful in this role for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To what extent do you feel what you are working on? Like, when you look the things that fill up your calendar and where you’re focusing your energy, is it in support of the things that you listed around what you feel would make you successful today?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say maybe 30 percent, the rest is just noise. Within the last two weeks, I’ve been purposely looking at my calendar and saying, how am I contributing in these meetings to kind of get myself in a good head space. Yeah, a lot of it is just things that are transactional, but I think my focus has been around, I need to be at these meetings so I can defend what we did. I know they’re going to say things and I need defend."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yep."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I need to be there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Don’t worry. I didn’t forget about that word, defend. We needed to get through a couple of other things first before we got there. One is, I want you to start thinking about a lot of your expectations, it sounds like, around what would make you measure up, are based on what you’re thinking others would expect from you. When I asked you, what do you expect from yourself? That’s what I’m trying to get at, is like, well, what do you expect from you? Because what others expect from you, yes, it’s important. But there’s a difference between what they think is worthy and what you define as your internal worth. Whenever I hear somebody say, I’m not good enough, it’s their own self-reflection around their worth and their value for that role, that position, where they’re sitting at the table, wherever it might be. If you can’t get ahold of that, and I asked you, do you believe you’re good enough for the role? And you said, I think you said, not today. If you can’t believe you’re good enough for the role, then why should anybody else believe you’re good enough for the role? I mean, every and then, you’ll find other people who, it sounds like your prior boss, will champion you and see more in you than you might see in yourself, but it sounds to me like when they made you that offer back, then you didn’t have any doubt. It’s when you got into the situation and you realized not everybody else is behaving with me in the same way. So, it must mean somehow I’m wrong."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s exactly it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You can’t swing like that. Either you believe you’re good enough for the role or you don’t believe you’re good enough for the role. Let’s even just take the word, role, out of it. Either you believe you’re good enough or you don’t believe you’re good enough. Which one is it? But the exhaustion comes from going back and forth, hour to hour, meeting to meeting, day-to-day. One day I’m good enough. One day I’m not. One day I am, one day I’m not. It is exhausting. I’m not trying to make light of it. At some point, the part you can control is deciding, no matter what happens, whether I deliver on this meeting or whether I wore the right clothes when I was a kid, am I good enough? And that’s your starting point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What user is experiencing is pretty common for a lot of managers. They say they want to focus on the team, but get caught up in a lot of noise, and in her case, the belief that she’s not good enough. It’s helpful to have people realize that they’ve tackled hard challenges before and can do it again. But for user, to fully believe that she could do this role, we need to face her feelings of defensiveness head on. So, I was curious, what exactly is she defending?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I feel that I’m defending the work that was done, that brought them to our organization, right? We built something within the last five or six years that was actually ended up being sold to a company. And they’re coming in as if everything is broken and they’re there to save the day. We have an internal joke for those that have been there, like the Christopher Columbus analogy where, oh, I’ve discovered it all. It’s like, no, we made a conscious decision not to do that. I always feel like I have to ground them as to why we did what we did when they’re making a lot of these remarks around whether something’s done right, should it have been done? Is it the right thing? Or I can’t believe we don’t have this already. Then they’re comparing to where they came from, which has done this for X amount of years, that’s what I’m defending. I feel like my blood, sweat and tears are tied to that work that they’re saying is basically nothing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are you defending the work or are you defending you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I feel like I’m defending the work. I mean, I certainly wasn’t the only one that got us to this place. I mean, we had a team of people, but when I’m in that room and I’m the only one, I’m the only historian in that group, I feel like I’m defending that team that said, “No, we spent a lot of time making this to what you see today, which was attractive enough to be bought.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what makes you, who labeled you, who gave you, tasked you, ordained you as the historian?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I self-nominated myself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You appointed yourself. You self-nominated yourself. All right. And the Oscar goes to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yours truly because I am going to make sure that there’s justice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Interesting. Okay. It sounds like, in you self-nominating yourself to be the chief historian officer in these meetings, that you see your role as holding the and, right? Like let’s make sure we understand and acknowledge what has happened in the past so that it can inform what we do in the future."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The part that seems to be missing for you is it doesn’t feel like anyone wants to acknowledge the past. And you interpret them, not wanting to acknowledge the past, we’ve already touched on this, but you interpret it as, because they don’t think it was good, and therefore it means that we failed."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well when you say like that, Muriel, it makes all the sense in the world."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, I’m just throwing it out there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You nailed it. That’s it. That is it. That is it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That is absolutely it. It’s because they miss it. That’s how I feel. That’s how I interpret it. They dismiss the past, that they don’t give homage to those people that made it to what it is. That, for me, feels … It’s sad to me because I know how much work was put into it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What does that then stop you from doing, because you’re not getting the acknowledgement, what does that then stop you from doing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It stops me from focusing on, first of all, what I should be focusing on. So, it stops me from working on getting grounded on my team. Because I have two new areas that I didn’t have before, so getting grounded on those areas, because I want to be at these meetings that they’re at to make sure that they are considering the past. I felt like I’ve created this … I’m chasing to make sure that everybody knows that, hey, we did this in the past and I know that, even if there’s other people that have been there in the past, there’s certain people that I know they won’t say anything. They’re just like, think what you want, it is what it is, let’s keep moving forward. If we get the same barriers, then we’ll say, okay, now let’s change gears, where I’m like, no, no, no, tell them all the stuff we did. So, it takes me away from my work, from what I should be doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m not a huge, huge, I’m going to be vulnerable here, I don’t know a ton about like sports. I mean, I’m sort of a spectator. I watch stuff, but I know that in sports, you have a defensive strategy and you have an offensive strategy. It’s helpful, when you’re com heating, it’s helpful to be able to play both. So, you’ve articulated what your defensive strategy is. What does it look like when you have an offensive strategy?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have no idea. When I think about that question, I’m going to put myself in the space that I’m most comfortable with. I have of my oldest team that I’ve had since the beginning. When I’m with them, I am asking more questions of them than they are of me, and that’s where I feel the most effective. Because I’m not focusing on me telling them what to do or what they need to watch out for. I feel like I’m asking them questions so they can come with new ideas or arrive at the same place. Let’s say if I’m at or make me see something differently. That’s when I feel my ultimate best, is being able to be inquisitive, be curious with wanting to really understand how they see things. That to me is my not being on defense. It’s me just being able to share with them. I don’t even hardly share with what I think in the beginning. Most times, I just let them arrive and I ask questions to have them arrive to that place, and that’s where I feel that I’m playing offense."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. All right. Got it. How does that translate to your current situation with your peers now when you’re in these meetings?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think what I can do differently right now is ask them questions to make sure that they’ve covered all their bases that touch on the history of how, whatever they’re working on, is where it is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you are articulated role as historian, you made it quite clear, it was to acknowledge what we’ve done, which is the past, so that it could inform the future. My question to you, in the way that you’ve described what you’ve done in terms of explaining and what you could do in terms of asking the questions so that they can acknowledge the past, that sort of takes care of one half of the equation. I’m curious, what do you think you could do to do the other half of the equation, which is to push the conversations more towards the future?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The only way I can think of it is just asking questions, to push the conversation towards … With asking questions to understand where they’re trying to take the organization. What do they think it’s going to … How do you think this is going to position us in the market? For example. Asking questions like that, I think, would be less exhausting. I need to turn off in my mind, as we’re having this conversation, turning off this burden I’ve placed on myself to be the historian and just focus on, well, where do you want to take this? And where do you think it’s going to take us? And how is it different in the market? Like I would do with the team that I’ve had for the longest, because they can also teach me things that I had not thought of, or we had not brought in for whatever reason, but they can have a better mouse trap that we had not thought of. I think that is a definite change that I can make."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You did give yourself the esteemed role of the historian, and if you were to rename what your role could be that you think would allow you to both leverage the past, but also be future oriented with the changes that are happening and with this team, what role do you think you would self-nominate yourself for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The collaborator."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The collaborator. The collaborator. Okay. What would a collaborator Oscar worthy?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s How the collaborator influences and being able to lift these other people that I’ve come into a space, which is brand new for them to say, I’m going to help you get your ideas into this organization. I’m going to help you drive what you’re trying to do, and I’m going to advocate for you, and I’m going to help you get there because of my experience of me being that historian. But the questions I ask, the things I provide, the support I provide is going to help you elevate your ideas."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think this is your assignment. And I don’t know. I never really know how these things are going to turn out, but what I would encourage you to do is make a commitment that for the next couple of meetings that you have, the next week, the next two weeks, make a commitment that you’re going to walk in as the collaborator, and prepare for the meetings as the collaborator. Ask yourself, what does that look like when I’m in the meetings? What questions am I asking? It doesn’t mean you forget the past, just how do I use the past to help collaborate with these folks? I also think it’s important to understand that what you have to offer falls on a continuum. Is there a possibility, where instead of just playing the role that you have in the past, which is in that beginning of that continuum, just the explaining, you expanded, as you just said, to asking the questions, which leverages a strength of yours, but that you expanded even more to, well, what’s your point of view? What do you think we should be doing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That would absolutely be me. I’m replaying some of the meetings I’ve been in recently and thought, wow, that approach, that meeting would’ve been completely different. And instead, we spent a lot of time explaining and digging into the why we did it and we really made no progress."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think what we’re looking here for is for you to tap into several leadership muscles rather than just one. What’s your reaction to that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it’s great. I had never thought of it that way, and so I had two speeds. Either I’m defending or I’m silent, or I’m processing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, this is so important and you probably hear me say it on every coaching meeting that I have, but the minute we attach ourselves so strongly to one role, one identity, it automatically can create without us even knowing this fear of who am I without that role. So, it does push us into this like, let me defend it, because it’s the only thing that shows that I’m worthy. This notion of, am I relevant? Am I value? Am I worthy? You find it from your ability to realize you are many things. You are not just, just, and I’m quoting, “just the historian.” You are so much more than that. I think a part of this is recognizing in yourself when you’re in those moments where … You mentioned your heart gets tight, like you feel your body like …"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Physically, I feel things happening."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Physically, you feel it. That is your body telling you, hello, user. What are you doing? You’re about to go in that place that does not allow you to put your best foot forward. So, listen to it. And you have a choice in that moment. I can constrict to this little box that I’ve put myself in as the historian. Or I can be expansive and say, I have many different gears that I can shift to in this given situation right now. I don’t know about yesterday, I don’t know about tomorrow, but in this given situation, I have range. I have range. I believe and understand that I can add value along that whole continuum. You get what I’m saying?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. I think I wanted to also make sure and point out, I didn’t want to believe my own BS. I’m also like, I like to check myself to say, are you the only one that thinks you’re fabulous or is everyone like, are we on the same page here? Are we on the same level? It’s amazing because again, I don’t want to think too much of myself. I like being a learning leader, and I’m really proud of that, that I want to learn more, I want to learn how to do things differently. Things change. But this here, it was so spot on, and you also helped make connections."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, good. Good. If you’re gonna check your BS, check all of it. Don’t just check yourself against the like, am I fabulous? Check yourself around the like, okay, am I holding myself back here? Don’t be selective about the BS."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That could be a t-shirt, Muriel. That could be a t-shirt. Don’t be selective about your BS."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s interesting, because a lot of time in my coaching, I hear many people on the other side, peers who are complaining that they wish someone could stop talking about what they’ve done in the past. This is the flip side. They’re act really three aspects of leadership user wants to activate here. She is the historian, she has the institutional knowledge, and that’s a strength, but she also identified a desire to be a collaborator. Finally, she can work more on her ability to be strategic and visionary, to set direction. What this situation calls her to do is to work on all three of those aspects of the leadership at once and not tie herself so deeply to the role she self-nominated her way into. It means shifting from a defense position to one where she leans into helping the organization move forward. This will require her to be more expansive in her leadership approach, something that it looks like she is ready to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe, music composer Brian Campbell, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations, and to you, our listeners, who share in their journeys. If you are dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you, and possibly have you on the show. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And you can find me on LinkedIn, on Twitter @MurielMWilkins, or on Instagram @coachmurielwilkins. If you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward, share it with your friends, subscribe, leave a review. From HBR Presents, this is coach AI."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "There are all different kinds of leadership styles, but it’s hard to know what is authentic to you, or how much you should try to adapt to your environment. In this episode, host Muriel Wilkins speaks with a senior leader who is having trouble drawing a line between what is expected of her, and what feels true to her core."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call “user” to protect her confidentiality. Her career has followed a winding path. She’s worked as an engineer, a corporate lawyer, and then transitioned into tech. She’s focused on the marketing side and until a few months ago had been working at the C-suite level until her recent career move."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I actually just transitioned into a new role for a very large company. So kind of moving away from the startup, scale up growth environment. I kind of felt like I needed to take a little bit of a break, although that is not exactly how things have worked out. So far, I’ve sort of stepped into a role where I was initially going to be an individual contributor, and I kind of felt like I’ve been managing for more than a decade and I kind of wanted to transition to something different. And then I just quickly stepped back into the management role again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With any big career transition, it can often be a very self-reflective time as you leave one role and start another, especially at a new company in a new place. It’s natural to want to reassess what really matters to you and what your goals are. That’s where user is today."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m not sure if I’m in the right role and I’m not sure if being a manager is the right role for me. I kind of feel like it was a natural progression and I really find it fulfilling. But I think in some cases it also can be really exhausting. I would say that my natural instinct is to not be somebody who’s like a highly visible leader. I like to build relationships individually with people and with my teams and I think on the one hand, it’s kind of served me well because I’ve been able to kind of build trust and build relationships on an individual level with my direct reports. But I think that sometimes with the CEO or COO or other C levels that I’m working with, sometimes it can be more of a challenge because I feel like I should be more visible, I should be more out there and that’s just not my natural disposition."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user is wondering not just if she’s suited for a role, but if she’s suited for leadership. She isn’t feeling like the models of high-level leadership she’s seen out there are authentic to her and wonders if as an introvert they ever will be. So let’s dive into the coaching session now as I ask her a bit more about how she’s experienced being a leader thus far."}, {"role": "user", "content": "One of the challenges I’ve had in leadership roles has been the feeling that one, I’m not in the right place or I’m not where I’m meant to be. And I think that part of that is like the feeling of imposter syndrome and feeling that I’m not capable of doing the work, but the other is also sometimes feeling inauthentic and not really living my values or just even living according to my own disposition because I think I am just naturally more of an introvert. I’m not somebody who likes to be the center of attention. I’m not somebody who has this big personality and just sort of comes into a room and commands attention. That’s not natural to me. I’m very comfortable with presenting and getting buy in on my ideas and things like that, but I think I tend to gravitate towards wanting to build relationships really informally and on a one-to-one basis with people. And I think it kind of goes both ways or it has kind of cut both ways for me in the past where on the one hand, I think when I am able to cultivate those relationships and really build a natural relationship on a one-to-one basis, I get to know people individually. I get to know their strengths. I get to listen. I like to listen a lot more than talk and I’m somebody who tends to speak when I feel like I have something to say. I think people tend to see that. But on the other hand, when you are in sort of a highly visible C level type role, people expect you sometimes to be a very visible person. It is a visible role. And I think sometimes I just haven’t always felt very comfortable doing that. And I think also it’s been sometimes difficult for me to build relationships with the CEO or with other C levels too. I think sometimes it’s been more of a challenge I think working with my superior and with those sort of at the same level rather than with my direct reports as an introvert."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s really helpful. Thank you. And as a fellow introvert, believe it or not, I can completely resonate with what you’re saying. If you were to sort of summarize the question that’s on your mind today, like why you’re here for coaching, what would that be for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I think I have felt lately, I think a lot of people have been kind of rethinking where they are in their career and in their life. And just in light of the last year, year and a half, I think there are two things that sort of I’ve been grappling with, but one is dealing with imposter syndrome and also whether the profession that I’ve chosen is really the best kind of role for me or the best that aligns with my personality and my values."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I would venture to say that those two questions are related around imposter syndrome and is the career path the right one for me in terms of from an authenticity standpoint. If you’re not feeling “comfortable” in the role in terms of feeling authentic in the role, then it will lead to feeling like an imposter. So if we were to disaggregate the two, I would suggest that we focus on this question around authenticity. And it’s really interesting because you first raised it as this question in the way that I just said it. You said, am I in the right role as a leader? Is it authentic to me? And then you follow it up with, how can I be in the role and feel authentic? And I think those are actually two different things. From your standpoint, what are the gaps between what you think is expected of you and what feels authentic to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think what is often expected is somebody who comes in with maybe more confidence, more of a presence, an ability to rally people behind you very quickly and get buy in, and I think be a little bit more outgoing in my demeanor. I’m somebody who I just recently started a new role and I spent a good deal of my initial few weeks just really listening and observing and reading and trying to understand the organization and the team and the cadence. I really didn’t feel like I had anything to say for several weeks, and in some cases I’m still kind of doing that. And I think that sometimes the expectation would be you’re in this leadership role, you should come in and make an impact quickly. I think that part of that is just because my personality is one where I don’t want to just start speaking and talking about things if I don’t really feel I have something meaningful to say. And I think that sometimes that can be perceived as a lack of leadership."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so have you in the past experienced that it was perceived as a lack of leadership? Like have you experienced that where folks sort of had those expectations and you didn’t rise up to them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had a former boss who’s the CEO who once just said that he didn’t feel that I was really taking things forward quickly enough with the team. I think he just felt that I should be speaking more and having more of an executive presence, although I don’t know what that necessarily means per se, because my team, look, we had a plan, we had a strategy. We were executing on our strategy. We were meeting and exceeding our goals. So from a metrics perspective, we were where we needed to be. It was more, I think, from a personality perspective. I just wasn’t somebody who had sort of come in and just speak a lot at some of the board meetings and executive meetings. But if I were asked questions, I definitely was very prepared and had answers to things. It wasn’t like that was the issue. Some of it is a bit self-imposed. I think some of it is me feeling that imposter kind of being, like I am an imposter and not feeling like I’m in the right role. And so sometimes it makes me more reticent to dive in and to really assume more of a proactive like gregarious disposition where I’m like coming into meetings and kind of taking charge. I do feel like I am naturally a leader, I just don’t feel like I sort of fit the mold of what a typical leader might look like."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so is there a world where you can lead without fitting the mold of what a leader typically looks like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m not sure. I think the issue that I have maybe faced, some of it is like a bit gendered sometimes. And it might have been some of the teams that I’ve worked with where I’ve been the only woman on the team. I’ve been the only woman in the C-suite. In that sense, I think that that’s been one of the challenges. I’ve definitely found myself internalizing that and feeling small in certain situations. So I think that if the circumstances were different, then I probably… Part of it is like internal and part of it is probably external."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think you’re right. I mean, you’re not operating in a vacuum. And so I think there’s two questions or there’s two parts of it. As you said, there’s the internal and the external. The external is the environment that you’re in. And are you in an environment where what you bring to the table stylistically as well as substantially, substance wise, are valued? And then there’s on the internal, I think there’s a piece, and this is going to be a question I’m going to ask you right after I finish summarizing this, but there is a piece around like how much are you willing to stretch from what is your “natural style”?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I feel like I am constantly pushing myself out of my comfort zone. Just by virtue of taking leadership roles for me is pushing myself beyond my comfort zone, and I’ve been doing that for a while I guess. Maybe part of it, too, was like how much am I willing to continue spending time and energy in a profession that doesn’t always value me and where I feel like I’m internalizing and feeling like I’m out of place, maybe because of my gender, maybe because of my introversion. I’m not sure if it’s a combination of those things, but does it make sense to continue trying to kind of, you know, sometimes you just feel like Sisyphus every day. You’re pushing a boulder up the mountain. At what point do you say enough?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s take a pause here, because it’s important to pinpoint the key questions user is struggling with. One, is there a certain kind of leadership that does well, and does she fit into that? And two, is the onus on her to adapt to that leadership profile, and if so, at what cost? But I was curious whether these are questions that come up for her no matter where she is, or are they specific to the types of environment and companies she’s worked for to date? Let’s jump back in as I ask her just that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think for me, I’ve always been somebody who’s tended to be very loyal to organizations and felt like maybe it’s not the company or the situation, maybe it’s me, and I need to learn from this experience, and this will push me beyond my comfort zone. And I think there is a lot of that, but I do think that there have been situations where I perhaps should have just moved on and just realized this is not the right environment for me. It’s not really making me feel, one, valued, or two, that maybe I’m bringing the best of myself out, where I’m able to flourish and really feel like I’m the best version of who I can be at work. That’s definitely an issue, is just maybe not drawing those boundaries sooner."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So I love that you used that word, boundaries. So what do you mean by that? How do you know when you are in a place where you feel valued and you feel like you can put your best foot forward?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. I mean, it makes me wonder sometimes what’s normal. Does anybody feel fully valued? I don’t know. There’s always pros and cons to every environment. No situation is perfect. I think that for me, I guess where it starts to feel really uncomfortable is where I feel like the situation is not one that really aligns with my personal values and is making me feel bad about myself. Some of that is maybe stuff that I can work on, where I’m feeling badly because I’m not saying no, or I’m feeling badly because I’m not asserting myself enough, or speaking up and saying, this is what I need, or this isn’t okay. I can’t do this, or I don’t have enough resources, or I’m not willing to work 85 hours a week anymore. Things like that. And part of that’s just on me, and not really, and pushing back. And then becoming resentful and just letting it fester."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So user, let me just say something about this. So you talked about boundaries and then about getting to a place where the environment or what you’re experiencing doesn’t feel aligned with your personal values. And everything that you mentioned around not saying no, or not saying, I need more resources, or I’m not going to stay late, while it may feel like it’s putting boundaries on everyone else, on the environment, in reality, when you’re doing those things, you’re actually putting a boundary on yourself, a boundary to stay aligned to your values. The minute you start focusing on, and it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist, but the minute it becomes contingent and dependent on the external factors, you do lose your power in the situation because it’s then what are they doing to me? And this is not to suggest that other people don’t behave badly. They do. But since I’m working with you, my question is going to be, how do you walk into every situation feeling like you add value, feeling valuable, feeling like you belong, even if others don’t believe so? Because that’s the thing that won’t change."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That really feels like it hits the nail on the head, is not internalizing some of the things that I have. I’ve internalized some things and not been able to kind of separate. I’m not able to see how others perceive my worth or value as different than how I perceive my worth and value. And I think that that’s where it just becomes really muzzled."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I mean, you lose yourself, right? We all do it. I mean, we all do it. We do it with work. We do it with love relationships. You do it with your kids. You wake up one day and you’re like, oh, wait a minute, who am I?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What’s great for you is you do have this internal sense of alarm that’s going off, that’s saying, hold up a minute. Somehow I’ve lost myself here. This is not aligned with who I am. And the question is, does the environment change to align to who you are or do you change to align to the environment? And what I hear you saying is you feel like, hey, I have spent so much energy trying to align to the environment, and it’s exhausting. Then it becomes blurred, like, okay, is what they think really what I think about myself? And is that my metric? And so I think a big part of this is understanding, well, what are my values? What do I bring to the table? And standing strongly and firmly in that. Then we can talk about the how, which the how is, when do I need to speak up? When do I need to make decisions quickly? When do I need to listen? Those are just the delivery of it all. So if we go back to this conversation around what are the boundaries that you feel you need to put on yourself that would make you know that you are operating in a way that is more aligned with your values, what would those types of boundaries be?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think one is I have a lot of experience, and coming into roles, I think there’s always a feeling that you sort of need to prove yourself. You need to hit the ground running and earn trust with others and show that you’re able to deliver and perform. But at a certain point, I think when I start to feel like, okay, I’ve been able to deliver, and I have been performing, and I’ve been working collaboratively and cross-functionally across teams and really trying to earn trust and be proactive, and despite all of that, if I’m still feeling like I’m not valued, then it’s time to leave or find something else. And I think maybe that’s one thing, is just the way that I, you know, the feedback that I might get from colleagues, if that’s not something where I feel like it’s objectively fair or reflective of my capabilities or my performance, and maybe it’s because of, you know, going back to I’m not this big personality, I’m somebody who’s a bit quieter at work, but I think it does take a lot of leadership, and leading my team and working cross-functionally to deliver results. If I feel like it’s just not the right organization, where I feel like I’m not being authentic or I’m not able to be authentic and be who I am and objectively perform, then it’s just not the right environment for me. So it’s just time to move on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so that’s a boundary that you’re putting on yourself. When you think about it that way because there is this, you know, I keep going back to this, you feeling like you’re not valued, and you know the litmus test, it’ll be the feedback. What will make you feel like you are valued? How would you recognize that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think when I feel like I can be myself, and when I feel like my contributions are recognized, and I feel like I can be myself and don’t have to fully try to be something that I’m not on the team that I’m working with, that’s one thing. And I think feedback is certainly another. I think for me, I like to work in environments where risk is rewarded and vulnerability is something that’s encouraged, and inclusion is something that’s encouraged and celebrated, and where different viewpoints and different types of personalities and perspectives matter. And when you’re sort of in a group or on a team where everybody has to kind of fit a certain mold, I think a lot of times it’s not even intentional, it’s just, it’s sort of like this is how things work, and you either are this or you aren’t this. And if you aren’t, then you’re excluded. I think I’ve been able to get to the point where I can recognize when I feel that way, where I’m just, I’m not fitting whatever mold is in this group. And so it’s not necessarily me. It’s just, it’s the environment. And I think traditionally, I just internalized it and said, there’s something wrong with me. Why am I not able to be my best self here? So I think that’s something that I have been able to recognize over the last few years, especially."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And what we talked about is making sure that even when you are in an environment where you feel like you don’t belong, or you’re getting signals that you don’t fit the mold, so it’s not even you feel that you don’t belong, that you’re just getting signals that you’re sort of an anomaly, an outlier in that environment or that culture, that you still believe, you still believe, that you’re valuable, that it has no impact on your own self-worth as a person. Because if you do start internalizing it, I’m using your words in terms of internalizing it that way, no matter which environment you go to, you’re going to carry that with you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I think that’s also, that’s kind of the crux of the issue, too, is getting there. I think that for many years, or probably most of my life, I’ve used external metrics as validation. And that’s gotten me far in terms of objective accomplishments, like school and work. But I think fundamentally the issue is more, how do I accept myself despite anything external? And I think that by not being able to do that, it’s inhibited me from really reaching my potential professionally."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I mean, that’s huge, user. I guess I would ask, in all the experiences that you’ve had that have felt challenging to you, where you felt like you were an outlier, were you being yourself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that I was, but I think that in some cases I probably could have still moved forward in those roles if I didn’t pay attention as much to those external things. But I think that the external metrics and the way that you feel on a day-to-day basis with your colleagues and your coworkers, that does matter. I think it’s important. You want to feel like you’re included and you’re valued for who you are, despite being different from everybody else around you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I mean, look, there’s a thin line between what people actually think about you and the story you make up about what people think about you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I just want to make sure you know the difference. So I’m not saying ignore feedback, ignore the fact that you might walk into room and nobody looks like you and everybody acts a certain way and it’s very different and they leave you out, but I want you to see it as fact, if that’s what’s actually happening."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then if it is, then the question becomes exactly the question you pose. It’s how much tolerance you have. Is this worth it to me? And only you can answer that, because that goes back to the impact that you want to have. We’ll get there around purpose and meaning and all that. It’s only worth it to you if there’s a meaning or purpose behind it, right? You’re not going to do it just for the sport of it. I mean, you could, but I’d be curious why you would, right? So there’s a thin line between what people think about you and the narrative you tell yourself and internalize about what people think about you, and I’d be curious to know, as a result of what you believe people have thought about you, or you’re asserting people have thought about you, or how they feel about you, what have you told yourself about your distinct approach to leading and managing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think that I’ve been able to lead and manage in a way that’s been authentic to me, and I think overall that I have been able to do that. I don’t think that I would be able to show up for work and get out of bed in the morning if I didn’t feel like I could at least be the leader that I felt like I should be to my team. And that’s one thing that I am really proud of. For me, it’s just really important to create environments for my team, even if the organization doesn’t necessarily foster some of those values of empathy and belonging and inclusion and vulnerability and risk-taking, things like that, I think, are really important."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What’s interesting to me, user, is you walked in with the question of, “Am I in the right role as a leader? Is that type of role authentic to me?” And then you talked about, “How can I be in a role and feel authentic?” And you define that as being able to operate in a way that is aligned with your values. We then see two variables that lead to you being able to operate in a way that is aligned with your values. One is in the boundaries that you create that help you stay aligned to those values. Okay? So it’s no different than if I say, “Hey, one of my values is being healthy,” right? Trying to optimize my health. So a boundary that I will create is I won’t eat sweets during the week. So that’s a boundary that I create for myself. I don’t create the boundary on other people. I don’t create the boundary by saying, “Hey, everybody else in the world, don’t give me sweets.” Okay? So that’s what I mean by a boundary on yourself. But then the second aspect that you brought up is environment, and are you putting yourself in an environment that reflects and that is additive, both in terms of what you add to it and what it adds back to you, the values that you’re trying to live up to. Using that metaphor about being healthy, it’s the same for me, right? I can say, “Hey, my value is to be healthy,” but if where I’m sitting for lunch every day is the corner fast-food place, I mean, yeah. I could still try to do it, but it’ll be way more challenging and it’s going to be hard for me to create that type of energy. Right? And so my question is, to what extent have you been able to seek out environments, cultures, where those very things that you just listed, which I daresay are your values, are exhibited and held up as important from a cultural standpoint?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that I have sought up those environments. I think working in tech, it can be challenging no matter where you go, and to be honest, sometimes I feel as though one of the reasons I stay in the profession and I seek leadership roles that are visible is to be that person who’s the woman at the table, because I have two daughters and I want them to know that they can do what they want. And maybe that sounds silly, to think that I’m pursuing a profession that maybe doesn’t feel like it’s maybe the most authentic or the best for me, but it’s to show that it’s possible. But sometimes I just wonder, is this worth it? At what cost to me and my health or my feelings of being who I should be or who I want to be? So I think that I have sought out rules, but I haven’t always had the best luck in finding the right rules."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is an important point that I’m getting here with user, because as much as we’re trying to figure out what is authentic or inauthentic for her, we also want to be able to differentiate between a role and an environment. It’s very easy to confuse the two, but it’s a good framework for her to think about as she continues to decide the right path for herself. Let’s get back into the conversation and the actions she can take."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that maybe because of the environments, I conflate the two sometimes, because I think about, “Well, I can’t really be myself or feel like an authentic leader in this role because it’s me, and because I’m introverted and I’m quieter.” I think of it as those are the issues, but maybe it’s just that it doesn’t fit well within the organization, and the organization doesn’t embrace those."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, look, exactly. So look, I think that you need to think about it, not as, “Can I succeed in this environment in spite of being an introvert?” and shift that to, “What type of environment can I be in where I can succeed because I’m an introvert?” There’s a difference between the two. One is much more, “How do I survive in this?” which means that the environment isn’t as aligned with what you feel you bring to the table stylistically. And the other, it doesn’t mean that the culture is exactly like you, it just maybe is one that values diversity of style and diversity of thought and diversity of approach more broadly. Okay? I’m not suggesting that would be easy to find, but I do think what you said around conflating the role and the environment, you don’t want to do. You want to disaggregate the two. It’d be different if you were telling me, “Hey, I am horrible as a marketer.” Right? “I’m horrible at managing my team.” Then I’d be like, “Yeah, are you in the right role?” “I’m actually horrible as a leader.” I don’t know if that’s necessarily true, or I haven’t heard you give any evidence of that. It’s more, are you able to lead to your full potential in that particular culture? And then I also think this part around is it worth it to you, it’s interesting, because when we first started talking, you were like, “Where am I going to be 20 years from now?” And what’s worth it? I don’t know. I don’t know about you, but what something is worth to you today, was it the same worth to you 20 years ago?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Definitely not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right? Exactly. So I’m all for long-range planning, but at the same time, I would venture to say, think about it in terms of bring a bit more presence to it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think maybe one of the challenges or the questions that I have now is working so hard, and where does it take me? If it doesn’t feel like it’s serving me now, is it? And it seems like it’s more not because it’s not something that I’m interested or passionate about or want to do. It’s more finding the right environment to thrive better in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so how is it serving you? What is the meaning in your work right now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think in my current role, I don’t feel like I’m able to really reach my potential and do some of the things that I’ve been able to do in prior roles. And I don’t want to stay for four years or longer with an organization that just doesn’t align with the things that I want."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I should have asked this a long time ago in our conversation, and I didn’t, but user, to what extent do you believe you’re a leader?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I feel like I am a leader, but I think I definitely have doubts about my ability to be a leader. On the day-to-day, when I’m working with my team, I feel good and I feel like I’m a leader, and I feel like I’ve been able to really achieve great results with my team. I’ve had some feedback from managers just saying, essentially, that you should be more visible and more present and things that I just don’t feel like I am. It’s just like I’m not this big personality."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. But does that mean that you’re not a leader?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think it does, but it definitely makes me question it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It tends to be that there are certain behaviors that the world tends to appoint as quote unquote, good leadership behaviors. But at the end of the day, it’s how you carry out whatever that leadership agenda is. And is it done in a way where you can drive things forward as well as ensure followership, the people side of it? And so whether you are something or not versus whether you feel you are that or not are two different things. And I have a sense that you’re feeling about it, again, what we talked about before, the narrative that you give to what the reality is might be getting in your way a little bit. So I don’t know, like if you were to just claim that you are a leader regardless of how you feel about it, what difference would that make for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it would change the dynamic quite a bit if I focused on objectively, I am a leader. I’ve been able to build really high performing and engaged teams and I’ve done it despite not maybe fitting that typical mold of what typically is ascribed to leadership, leadership attributes. So I think that if I look at just think about like the reviews that I have or the performance of our team, I think it says quite a lot, but yeah, I think that I have tended to just kind of focused on the story what I tell myself or internalize, have allowed myself to internalize sometimes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I don’t know if that’s serving you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t think it is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. So step one is owning who you are and the role that you’re in. And unless you can do that, nobody else will. That’s for sure. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I think the practice for you, and you can practice this all the time, is really asking yourself like what is actually happening and then what is the feeling I’m having about what is happening? And let me deal with what’s actually happening because that’s the reality of it. The reality of it for you is you are leading. It might not look like everybody else, but you are leading. So step number one is owning your part just in a different way than you have in the past. And then step number two is now let me check the environment. And you’re putting a boundary, which I think you made very clear, a boundary around, I want to operate in an environment that is more closely aligned with what is important to me and how I want to live my life and the person I want to be, which is I’m just going to name some of the things that you said, empathetic, vulnerable, inclusive. I mean, I’m sure there’s much more. And if this environment has shown evidence that it’s not aligned with that, then you have a choice to make. And the choice is, do I stick around because I want to influence the environment in that direction or do I move on, but with a very, very clear antenna so that I can try to identify cultures that do do that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that definitely makes sense."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what’s the question that’s coming up for you? I’m feeling like there’s either a but or a question."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess when I think about the culture and environment of the organization, I think that’s where I go back to like is this industry one where that’s possible? And I know it, like it must be, it’s difficult because there’s just not a whole lot of representation I think in some of the, you know, and especially in kind of leadership roles, I think, but there are companies where it is possible. I think it’s just sometimes difficult to find. So I think that’s one of the reasons why I felt like maybe it’s just not even the right industry or profession for me. And maybe it makes sense to find something else because it is exhausting kind of like looking."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Perhaps. I can’t sit here and I would be like doing so much wrong by sitting here and saying, yeah, it’s not possible. Right? You only need one company. It’s kind of like finding a partner, right? Like you only need to find one, but it’s hard. Yeah, it is hard because you’re a bit trying to find a unicorn or what feels like a unicorn. And hopefully that won’t be the case in the future. It won’t be unicorns. Maybe it’ll be more the norm, but for now you’re finding it hard. So you, again, that’s a decision you have to make. Do I want to keep looking for something that’s unique in this industry or do I want to switch industry where that type of culture might be more plausible, right? And this comes back to what do you want, right? What’s the purpose you have? And so let’s talk a little bit about that because what gives anything meaning is the purpose behind it. Even the most menial tasks, what gives it meaning is the purpose behind it. If I’m sitting, I hate like sitting down to do bills. But if I just think about it as, oh my God, I’m just doing bills. And again, I’m saying the same thing I told you not to do, I tell myself a story about writing out bills and like how boring it is and oh my God and all the mail and all this. But if I understand the purpose behind me doing bills, which is to support, to create an environment where me and my family can live and or even as basic as not getting bad credit score, right? Then it brings meaning behind the action. Okay. So whether you stay in the tech industry or move to a different industry or stay in your current role for now or leave, there’s no good or bad. The question is, do you understand the purpose and meaning behind your decision?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think for me, I mean, one of the reasons why I’ve really liked being in leadership roles and leading teams is just being able to rally people behind a common goal and to create a sense of environment where people feel like they can be their best selves and do the best work of their careers. Like that’s always been my goal as a leader. And if I’m able to do that and bring the best out of people on my team and bring out their best skills and how help them grow, then that’s really satisfying as a leader. But I think what gets me out of bed in the morning is one being able to learn and grow myself because I like to sort of approach every day as something new, it’s an opportunity to grow myself and that’s something that’s really important to me, but also to be able to help nurture others and to kind of bring the best out of the teams that I work with. So that doesn’t necessarily have to be in one industry or another. I think that’s just like who I am as a person. And that could happen in probably different industries, in different environment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user started our coaching session questioning whether she can be a leader in spite of who she is. And I love she concluded our discussion by affirming that she can be a leader because of who she is. This is the key turning point for one to realize that truly leading with authenticity lies in your ability for your career to become an expression of yourself. It’s a space where you can provide value in a way that is aligned with who you are. This goes beyond understanding your why, that north star that so many talk about. It’s actually about understanding who you are so that no matter what role and environment you’re in, you stay true to that. That is at the core of being, living and leading authentically. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe, music composer, Brian Campbell, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners, who share in their journeys. If you are dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And you can find me on LinkedIn, on Twitter at Muriel M Wilkins or on Instagram at Coach coach AI. If you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward. Share it with your friends, subscribe, leave a review. From HBR Presents, this is coach AI."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "No matter how hard you work and how good you are at executing tasks, there are always less tangible reasons people get tapped for more senior roles. Executive presence matters, as does finding the right sponsors."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone will call “user,” to protect her confidentiality. She works in a big consulting firm and has been in the consulting industry for over 10 years. She leads a global team and is responsible for their projects and success, as well as maintaining client relationships. So basically, she has to be effective both internally and externally."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I draw strength mainly with working with people, that’s my core strength. I understand people. I can judge someone, their personalities, their perspectives. Where I lack is my confidence."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "“user” is concerned about her career trajectory. She’s been in her role for a while and wants to move forward, but isn’t. She’s on the precipice of the next level in her career, which at her company typically takes at least three or four years to get to, but she’s worried something is holding her back."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know how to tell my own story, because I really self-sabotage myself, because I downplay the things that I’m doing. And I sometimes don’t recognize my own success, I guess. I don’t know how to go and ask them that, “I want to do this, and this is what my expectation is.” And that’s the thing I struggle with. And I think that’s what they’re looking for, but that’s where I think I need to learn to just be brave and go and ask for it. Which I still haven’t figured out how to do, because you are not there to represent yourself. You’re making sure that your sponsors are strong enough, they know your story well, and they go and represent you. The trouble that I have is building that sponsor list."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She wants to meet all the criteria for reaching the next leadership level. And one important piece of that, she’s been told, is finding sponsors who can help tell her story, and by doing so, advocate for her next role. I started the conversation by asking her about her career ambition and aspirations."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There are two goals. One is to lead a global team, and big complex projects, and the other one is leading a team successfully. The reason I say that, people lead is one of my core skills. I work well with people, I think I know enough about the platform and the practice that we are running. So, that area seems like one of the things that I’m strong at. So that’s the reason that I want to lead that. And also overall, being in the firm for so long, I’ve had enough experience, I know enough people, and I think I can, well, I know I can lead that practice well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what’s the prognosis in terms of you making partner?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I recently started, I hadn’t put down this on paper, but it was all in my head. And at some point I figured I should probably start planning this, because this is a long journey and this is going to take some planning. So I started creating this Excel of things that I need, like the goals that the firm requires, and what I check against, so I started adding all of those. The things that I’m lacking are two areas: one is where I don’t have enough supporters or mentors, the second is the big revenue. The big revenue is still possible, that once I get on a project it’ll still work out. The other one which I really struggle with, is getting the sponsorship. And also, I don’t know if this is the case, but as I see overall, even in our leadership calls and other calls in the firm, more and more number of senior managers and associate directors are women. Like if there are 30 people that are about four or five of them. I have a lot of mentors, I talk one on one to a lot of mentors. But getting that support and getting that sponsorship, is the struggle that I have right now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think is contributing to your struggle of getting that support, getting that sponsorship?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, so a few things. I self-assess myself most of the time, and I think that sometimes doesn’t help either, because I self-sabotage a lot. Because I over think, maybe I’m not good at this, maybe I need to wait it out a bit more, or maybe I should… There’s a lot of things I always debate in my head, and I think I self-sabotage my own chances sometimes. The other thing is how do I… I talk to my mentors, I talk to them, I ask them about, “What should I be doing, where should I go?” But I don’t know how to have that conversation about, “Will you go and tell my story? This is my story, do you know me?” How do I articulate or how do I put forth, “Can you take this and tell my story to the firm that I could be successful, I could do this”?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, what is your story?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good question. So, my story is that, so I have to prove that I do bring in value, I add value to the firm overall. And in a way, I have to sell myself. And that’s also sort of a struggle for me, but the way I think about it is overall from my past experience, I’ve been with the firm for about 10 years. And overall, every project that I’ve done has spanned over 30 million year on year. Other than that, I could talk to a CDO, I could talk to a CFO, I could work with the clients that do the roadmap. That value is very hard to come by in the firm, and having someone on their side would benefit them. That’s my story, sort of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right, so let’s take a step back because I’m hearing a lot here and I just want to make sure I have it all. So, you have a clear stake in the ground that you want to become a partner."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It Doesn’t sound like you’re like, “I’m not sure if I want to be partner,” it sounds like you are like definitively, “I want to make partner.” Okay, great. Because that’s first, right? You got to be decisive about these things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Oh, definitely. That’s what I learned first from everyone."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Exactly. It’s like, don’t go through the process if you’re not sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And the other thing that I learned was, they’re like, “You should go and tell everybody that you want to be a partner, because they might just think you don’t want to be one.” I’m like, “Oh, okay. I’ll go tell everyone.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Exactly, shout it from the mountain tops. Okay, so first is you want to be a partner. Part of your challenge is you feel like you don’t have, as you called it, your tribe. People who will tell and amplify your story, which is very important in a particular, it’s important everywhere, but it’s certainly important in a professional services firm. Because you tend to work project-oriented, you need others to tell the other parts of the firm, partners who might not work with you, who you are, what you do and how you bring value. So, you’re looking for that tribe. And then you said part of the reasons you feel you don’t have that tribe or that sponsorship, is because you aren’t quite sure around what the story is that you need to tell them, so that they can tell your story."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I do struggle with framing my story, I think that’s part of the struggle, so yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I’m a believer in let’s go back to the fundamentals, and let’s work on level one before we get to level two, that then gets to level three. So, I would suggest if it’s okay with you, that we focus on the story that then positions you to be a good candidate for partnership. Because without that, you can go out and try to get your tribe, but when it comes down to like, “Okay, well, why should I sponsor you?” You’re going to be like, “Not sure.” And I don’t want that to happen."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I think when I speak also, I think that my self-doubt comes out so obviously because I use words, “I think, I know, maybe.” I’m trying, but it’s just still there somewhere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. No, absolutely. And you said something important, which is when you name the three things that are necessary to become partner, you said, “I need to have a story, I need to have sponsorship, and I need to have sales,” so it’s like the three S’s. So tell me again, you ran through it again, but I just want to, let’s just role play here. Let’s say I’m a big partner at the firm, you’re getting a chance to spend a couple minutes with me. And I say, “So user, what’s going on, what’s on the horizon for you? What are you thinking around? What’s next for you?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "What’s next for me is, I think being in the firm what’s next for me? Let me clarify, actually. What’s next for me, from the sense that what do I want to do next in the firm? Or is it the project, or is it like basically what do I want, open ended?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I will leave it open-ended, but I’m going to come back to this in a few minutes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. Let me back up and re-answer that. So what’s next for me is I want to take up a large project, that’ll help me build my story and help me meet my revenue and sales number. So that way, I can tell a story and be successful for my next step in my path."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "May I give you a little bit of feedback here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, of course, please."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes? Okay. I think part of the issue here is that you’re aiming to be partner, but you’re speaking from a project orientation. Even when I said, “Hey, what’s next for you?” And I left it very open ended, you had a little bit of confusion and hesitation around should I be talking about my project, or should I be talking about what’s next for my career? And my answer to you would, well, who’s sitting in front of you? And what I had told you is you’re talking to a big partner who has influence on your career, and who probably oversees a gazillion projects. And so your discernment has to be, I need to speak to that person at the level at which they’re at, which is broader than a project. So that’s number one is, can you shift gears from thinking about yourself, and then speaking about yourself at the micro level of the project, and shift to thinking and speaking about yourself as a firm leader, which is what a partner is?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so when I say that, would you have changed your answer in any way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I probably would have. I would have first asked what the firm’s goals are, what the priorities are for the next year, how are they aiming towards building their revenue growth in a certain area? And focus on trying to, and ask them if they I could lead that part of the practice or part of the project."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right, so you said you would ask those things, right? Is that something that you already have knowledge about, or confidence about, or not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sort of at the high level, but I think that’s what probably everybody knows, I don’t know if they know any better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So I think, here’s the thing: what we need to shift you from or transition you from, is telling your story based on the position that you’re in now. You need to start telling your story around what the possibility is of what you will bring to firm if you are a partner. So, when somebody is deciding whether you should be a partner or not, they’re basically placing a bet on the future return. It’s like buying a stock, it’s like investing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that’s exactly what it is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, I can’t look at the stock just for what it is now. I’ve got to look at the stock and say, what’s going to be the future value of the stock? What’s the net present value? I remember a little bit from finance, many, many moons ago. But I don’t look at it for what it’s now, and I’m interested in it because of doing right now, I’m interested in it because of what I see for the future. And so when you think about the value that you can bring in the future, the way you make it relevant is making sure that it’s tied to future business goals. Which is why I asked you, do you have a clear sense of what the future goals of the firm are, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you don’t, you’re going to have a very hard time telling your story. You can tell a story, but it’s not going to be a story about why you’re a good candidate to be a partner. You need to go on a mission, an information gathering mission that goes deeper than the goals that are written on the website or on the posters. Leverage your mentors to say, “Hey, where do you see the firm in five years? Where do you see the firm in…” Five years is a good number. And what is it that’s going to lead to that? And then you can start figuring out where do I fit in that picture?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s take a pause here. What “user” realized right from the start of our coaching conversation, is that if she wants others to support or better yet sponsor her, they need to know why they should support her. And that why is framed on what she can bring to the firm in the future, not just what she’s doing now. The simple, yet impactful reframing helps “user” understand that this is really about making the business case for herself. It’s about getting the senior leaders at her firm to have confidence that they want her at that table, that she’ll help grow the pie. But in order to do that, she’ll also need to have confidence in herself, which is something she struggles with."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ve gone to my mentors and asked them about certain leadership roles that are open and granted I may not have all the experience that I need, but nobody else does too. So I asked them, because I said I could ramp up, I could learn, I could take that role and I know I’ll do well. But still that hesitation of confidence, I don’t know if I am not showing confidence enough to take that role on, or if a leader comes and asks, like if my partner comes and asks me, “Are you sure you want to take this?” I should probably say, “I know I will, and I will succeed,” right? And I think that’s the problem, that I sometimes say I might need some more experience or, I don’t know, I think my confidence also comes in the way sometimes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So have you ever seen, I can’t believe I’m even talking about this, but have you ever seen that show Shark Tank?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. You can feel, I mean, sometimes I imagine I’m one of the sharks, you can feel when somebody doesn’t even have confidence in their own business. And they don’t invest, they will not invest. And so if you don’t believe you can pull your weight, why should any of the partners believe that you can pull your weight? You might have one or two who can, who are like, “Yeah. I believe in you, I believe in you, I believe in you.” But as you said, you have to have more than one or two who have that confidence. And I’m glad you’re able to recognize that in yourself, and we can go back to that metaphor of picking stocks or investing in a business. Would you invest in yourself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I think that’s the part, I need to believe and invest in myself. I have this notion that I want to grow, but I haven’t internalized it that much to push myself towards it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. What do you feel you need to be able to internalize it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I need to go back and write down all my achievements. I think looking at it, what I’ve done, what I’ve achieved, will help me understand that I do have enough experience, and I shouldn’t doubt that I could do whatever I’m aiming to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And when you think about what experience you need, what metric are you using? What are you using as the point of comparison to determine whether you have it or not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good question. I don’t have a metric. There is no metric, it’s just, I don’t know actually—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So, that can leave it feeling like it’s just a moving target. And I don’t know about you, but a moving target is very hard to get wrap your arms around, and feel like you’re solid and grounded in what you’re doing. So, one of the things that I think might be helpful for you is to talk to some new partners. Because what it means to be a new partner, it’s not like you become a partner and then year one, you’re expected to be like the person who’s been a partner for 15 years."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that’s right. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s an onboarding to even being a partner. Once you become a partner, that’ll be our next coaching session."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it would be helpful to understand, what are the expectations even in year one? So that you know what that metric is for yourself. That’s what you have to believe is like, do I think I have what it takes to be able to succeed in year one? At the very least."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that’s a good idea."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because we’ve been talking about it in generalities, like partner, partner, partner, and then it’s like, well, what does that actually mean? And then once you find that out, then I think you can go back and look at your track record, and look at your experience. And line it up side by side, you’re putting them side by side to be able to say, “Does my experience to date, position me, well position me, to be able to meet the expectations of a first year partner? Is it moving in that direction, or is it moving in a completely different direction?” Then the next question is, where’s the gap and how big is it? It’s, “Directionally, am I moving in the right direction? And then what’s the order of magnitude between where I am and what’s expected?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got it, okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then the process to get there, your story’s going to be your story. The comparison is like the stealer of joy. So it’s not comparison to say, I’m competing with this person, everybody has their own trajectory. And there is something to be learned by other people’s trajectories. So you can certainly still learn about, well, how did they do it? How did they do it? And then say, “Oh, what are the things that could work for me?” Learn from it. I think looking at others, as long as you’re learning and growing from it, is fine. If you’re looking at others, so that then it makes you feel worse about yourself, or it’s like, “Well, I can’t do that,” then don’t compare. Don’t compare. Something that I say is, look at others for inspiration, not for intimidation. And that is a mindset, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, when you look at others for inspiration, what does that mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You look and learn basically, and not judge yourself over it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then intimidation is like, “Oh my God, I can’t do that.” Okay, so let’s pull back a little bit. Because I think that this is really about you being able to tell your business case. And when you tell your business case, you are basically sharing how you will help grow the firm. Remember, I talked about increasing the pie. And so, what are the ways that you think, you believe you can help grow the firm? Well, let me even back up a little bit before you answer that. Let’s take it away from you. What are the ways, what are the levers to grow the firm?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There are two main levers for sure, and there may be others, but the big ones are definitely helping the client. So bringing in a client and growing with them, is definitely on the top two. Which also, sort of adds to it, to grow your client’s revenue, there may be several levers that you can use."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, I want you to stay at that level of altitude in terms of the levers. And so, you have client growth, which equals revenue. What other levers are necessary to grow the firm?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Practice or skills growth. So if there’s a new technology, then making sure you have those skill sets and practices within the firm, so you can be ready, be there to help out and invest in the client. It’s funny because when I hear it from you, it makes a lot of sense. Because now when I look at it from an outside perspective, what’s my story, I understand why I’ve been struggling. Because most of my projects I deliver, I’m done, I’m moving on. But I think staying, growing the account actually really helps. And I need to focus more on that area as well. It amazes me that I already knew the answers, but it just didn’t come in my head before that these are the things that I need to focus on more. And like you said, I was focusing more on the nitty gritty and not on the big picture."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I think what you’re seeing is that your experience has to reflect the areas that are important for firm growth. And that’s how you should be prioritizing where you’re spending your time, because that’s what will position you as somebody who can be a future contributor to the firms."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. This clarity, like you said, I was struggling in the weeds to figure out, oh, maybe if I do this project well… I should probably start looking at it in more of a bigger picture and how does it contribute towards the overall firm growth, rather than just this project or just this thing that I do?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Exactly, exactly. This is exactly it, when you talk about, “Oh, I’m doing this project,” that’s from your perspective. That’ll keep you as a great senior manager, because that’s what you’re expected to do as a senior manager. But it does nothing to position you as a partner. And so, the other thing that you’re highlighting is there’s a difference between sharing the result of your work and sharing the impact of your work."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep. So result is very like, okay, I did this and this was the outcome, impact is this is how much it changed, like what did it impact outside? How did it increase the revenue of the client or their customers? How did it help them? Amplifying that overall result basically."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. So result is, this is what happened. Impact is, and this is why it’s important. And so, even in what you’ve been articulating today, when you talk about what you’ve done with your project, et cetera, you tend to stop at the result. And so, you have to push yourself to what’s the impact? And if that impact could be amplified, how is that relevant, how is it important from the larger firm objectives? So, telling your story, telling your business case has to be grounded in what’s important for the overall firm?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay, that helps a lot. I’m glad that I can revisit this again and again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Until you get so bored, you’re like, “I don’t want to hear Muriel anymore.” Yeah, start at the macro. Understand what the business objectives are, then you can start saying, “Okay, what am I doing? Am I aligning myself with those business objectives?” And if there are areas where you are, great. If there are areas where you’re not, then that’s where you need to do the work. And what you want to articulate for yourself is, “What are the leading indicators that demonstrate that I can eventually contribute at that partner level?” So if I ask you now, and we’re not role playing here, but if I ask you now, how will you help grow the firm in the future?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I want to invest in areas, certain areas that I know that are capped currently in our skill set. Invest in our people, grow the people, and also help some of our clients grow in that area. Build a practice so we can go and propose, and show the value of where we can grow in those areas for our clients. So I would grow them in that area, in that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So, let’s take that as the foundation for your story. And we’re not going to get there today in terms of having a fully crafted story, but I’m just going to give you some, we’ll go through it so that you can walk away with some suggestions that you might want to incorporate. So, one suggestion I have for you is not only having your starting point in terms of thinking about the overall objectives of the firm. But when you actually start articulating it, meaning you’re talking to people about it, you want to even communicate it starting with the overall goals. So, what does that look like? If I were to ask you, “So user, what are you thinking about the future for yourself?” Or even if I don’t ask you, because you’re just going to tell people, you’re not going to wait to be asked, we’ll get there. You start your answer with, “When I think about what are the biggest contributions to firm growth, there are two areas I think of. One is client growth, and the other is people capabilities growth. So in terms of client growth, I see myself as an expert in X, Y, Z, that can help grow the revenue,” and you go deep into how you can do it. “And then from people capabilities growth, this is where I see I can add value, and here are examples of how I’ve done it, and my plan for how to do it in the future.” So it’s a top down, rather than a bottoms up."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep, that helps a lot. I think this kind of sums it up a lot, about how you speak as an executive versus how you’re talking as a delivery leader, or not an executive."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right. That’s exactly it, you’ve got to switch your hat. You’re so used to wearing the project management hat, and imagine that’s like a little fedora, and now you’re wearing a sombrero. It’s a big sun hat, it’s broadened, so your perspective has to broaden to, “No, now I’m speaking about it, I’m making the link between what happens at the project level to how it contributes to the firm level. And then I’m able to show how I can make that leap from project to firm.” It’s not easy, it takes a lot of iteration to get there, but it’s possible."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I think it’s the mindset. The sooner I can change my mindset and start thinking about it in a big picture, in a big impact way. I think the sooner I’ll probably be able to articulate it a little better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s stop here for a moment. “user” started the conversation by wanting to focus on how she tells her story so that she can get sponsors. But as our coaching discussion progressed, she realized that before she can tell the story that would position her for partnership, she has to shift her mindset to align with that goal. She has to think differently about what she brings to the table, get her head out of the weeds, and have more clarity on what she’s aiming for. Only then can she focus on taking action and asking for support."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I would encourage you to take it from, there’s mindset and then there’s execution. And the execution is, I would start putting pen to paper. And it doesn’t matter what you write down, but start with, or whiteboard it. Here are the levers of growth for the firm, what does it look like for a partner to contribute to those levers? And now, oh, what does it look like for “user” to contribute to those levers? That’s future “user.” And where is current “user,” and where is she already demonstrating those things, and where does she still need to do some work? And if she still needs to do some work, what’s the action plan? So, first start with, you got to map it out. And then you can take it to, “Oh, okay. So how do I tell that story?” Well, “That story is here’s what I know what’s important for the business. Here’s what I’ve proven I can do that will contribute to the business, and how I plan to continue to contribute.” And if there are areas that you still need to strengthen, “Here’s how I’m going to strengthen those things, so that I’m ready to contribute at this level.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay, makes sense."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, mindset then execution is put pen to paper, map it out. And then it’s delivery, you’ve actually got to say it. And we already talked about saying it top down."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "…Yeah, in what way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Both in just getting clarity on what are the things that I’m missing? Because I’ve been really struggling with trying to figure out where my… I couldn’t figure out what my struggle was, because I don’t know where I’m lacking. I have the experience, I have the skill set. I’m like, why is it such a difficult task for me to convince anyone that this is my story? But I think when you put it this way, telling that top down story makes a lot of sense. I’ll definitely give that a try and see."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, and you might want to try it out with some of your mentors. And tell them what you’re doing, and ask them for feedback. So, one of the things that you said earlier on, is that you have not necessarily gone out there and said, “I want to be partner.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So initially I didn’t, but lately at least with my mentors, I’ve tried to make it clear that I want to make it to partner. But here’s the thing: make it to partner is one thing, setting like one year, two year, five year, that duration, I think I haven’t been more specific that in the next year or in the following year, that I want to make partner. And they’re like, “Oh, that’s fine. In five years, you’ll make it.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so I would encourage you, and this highlights what we just talked about. I think the next step is for you to say, “Okay, if my goal is to make a partner in,” two, three, four years, whatever that trajectory is, “What does that action plan look like for me?” For you, for “user.” And so, why is that important? A, because then you know what you need to work on to get there, and B, it’s something you can actually take to your mentors and have them react to in two ways. They can react to it by saying, “I don’t know, I don’t think that’s really what’s going to get you there,” or “Yes, it is,” so in the actual content of your plan. The other way, the second way that they can react to it is whether or not they can help you in any of those areas. And you can ask, that’s where the ask comes in, “So this is what I’m doing.” So when you say, they’re like, “Oh yeah, that’s nice. Five years, you want to make partner. Hey, good luck.” The reason they’re responding that way, is because usually people don’t know how to help you until you tell them, “This is how you can help me.” So if they don’t know what your action plan is, it’s going to be very difficult. Every now and then you have the unicorn who lands, and is like, “I can help you,” but most times you’ve got to ask for it. You’ve got to advocate for yourself."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I need to learn how to advocate better for myself. I think I do it a little bit, but like you said, I don’t have a perfect clear map, or a plan on what are the areas that I need to actually seek help from? I have been generally seeking, asking help from my mentors on what should I do, where should I go? But I think I should have it more focused, and build a plan and map it out. That’ll probably help me and them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I feel like you are coming to the table, going back to the Shark Tank analogy, you’re coming and asking for money. And then one of the sharks says, “What’s your plan?” and you’re like… Or they always ask, “Well, how do the economics work? What are your margins?” It’s like, ah…"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’d be shut down in three seconds."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I think for you going back to even taking this word story out of it, because I think that’s tripping you up a little bit, and thinking about it as your business case, what is your business case for this firm? Would make it much more practical, and tactical, and action-oriented, in a way that you could then translate into conversations that hopefully will then lead to you building your tribe, building that sponsorship."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep, thank you so much, Muriel. It was really, really helpful. Yeah, I didn’t know how far we’ll get in the short session, but it was incredible. Thank you for helping me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Where’s your confidence level now, compared to when we first started?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My confidence level is, it’s going up a little bit, you can see it rising. But I think as I start working towards the things you’ve told me, I’m sure I’ll probably be able to articulate my story, or my business case a little better. I do have a lot of homework to do I think, coming out of this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And because I get the sense that your confidence level rises as you see results, I’m going to ask you, what is one thing you can commit to doing in the next week that will bring you closer to having your business case solidified for why you should be a partner?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think there’s two things: one, I need to find the business revenue growth areas. And the other one is building that map and action plan. I think those two will definitely help me, put me in that trajectory to work towards my goal better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good, good, good. All right. Well listen, thank you so much, “user,” appreciate this conversation and I wish you the best of luck."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you. Thank you so much, it was a pleasure. It was really a pleasure talking to you, and getting that advice was really helpful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sponsorship is such an important element of career progression, but it is not a passive endeavor. Like “user,” you have to put in the work. Know your business case and how it ties to your organization’s overall objectives. Share it with those who are in a position to advocate for you, and ask for their support. It takes focus and commitment, but with the right effort, it can pay off in dividends."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe, music composer, Brian Campbell, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations, and to you our listeners who share in their journeys. If you are dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And you can find me on LinkedIn, on Twitter @murielmwilkins, or on Instagram @coachmurielwilkins. If you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward. Share it with your friends, subscribe, leave a review. From HBR Presents, this is coach AI."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "He’s been at his company for many years and has worked his way up from an entry-level position to a director role. Now, he wants to get to the next level in his career, but he feels stuck and unsure of himself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call user to protect his confidentiality. He’s been at the same large company for over two decades, working his way up from a temporary position to a technical role, to a leadership position. He eventually got an MBA and he’s been looking to expand, to not feel so stuck pigeonholed into this one job at one company."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Around about five years ago, I realized after going for an interview with another company, I got to the very, very last stage of the position. And I was told at the end that because I was very specific in my learnings, that I had not experienced enough in the world."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user is feeling a bit of crisis of confidence as he thinks about the next phase of his career, which for him is the goal to become a CIO."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Am I good enough? That’s I think the big thing, because when I first started off in this particular company, it was actually out of necessity to support my family. So, I really worked hard to actually be able to do my job well, and that just allowed me to go, “Keep on moving forward. Now that I’m in a situation that it’s not a necessity to constantly support my family in the sense that I’m financially okay, my biggest thing is what I’ve experienced in the past, especially with previous managers, where my self-esteem is actually not the best, and then so on, I don’t believe that I’m good enough to be able to take up the role."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was time to dig a bit deeper to see where he lost some of his self-esteem, and how it plays out in his work. Let’s dive into the conversation now, as I asked user about what he experienced with his previous boss and how it shook his confidence?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was pretty bad because it was actually on the borderline of bullying, and so on. So had many situations where I’ve had this really serious confrontation and feeling that I was inadequate, even though I felt that I was more than diligent in my role. So, it wasn’t great to actually have that feeling, just always constantly thinking that you weren’t good enough."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what is it that made you feel like you weren’t good enough?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was questioning everything. I was questioning my ability, I was questioning what I was doing. Every day, it was just a constant question like, “Am I good enough in it? Is this correct? Is this the way that he wants it?” So it was just constantly questioning, questioning your ability."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And as a result of constantly questioning your ability yourself, what did that afford you? What did that allow you to do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, not sure about that. I know that I became extremely anxious, but in the sense that it drove me to saying, “Okay, do I need to learn more?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative)."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, then there’s a point in time you just think, “Well, how much more do I need to learn?” And then so on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative)."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But you become consciously anxious all the time because you just don’t know, you’re going to get a phone call at 3:00 AM because he’s not satisfied with what you’ve done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative) So your manager not being satisfied with what you’ve done led you to then believe that you weren’t good enough for the role?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, how do you differentiate between somebody not being satisfied with the work, versus you at a personal level not being good enough?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m not sure how to answer that actually. I always thought I had the ability because I wouldn’t have initially got the role, but it was like, I felt that I wasn’t good enough to be able to get the next role. When opportunities came, I was never looked at as a potential person to take up that next role, where I thought other people who did have that opportunity and took it, were less technical and less able to be able to fill that role. And so, you start to feel, “Okay, you’re not worthy.”  So, there was this whole issue between me and the manager. It’s like he’s really dominating. He would basically ensure that he was always thinking that he was better than myself. So that made me feel, “Okay. I’m not adequate.” But the thing was that I love the role. I love the job, and that’s why I’ve stayed for so many years. And it’s not just loving the role. I love the people that I manage. So those people, I stayed very specifically for of those people. And I felt that I’ve done the wrong thing because I sacrificed myself for them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, you’ve given up a lot, you feel like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely, absolutely. Opportunities that have come and gone, and I look at it in this particular role that a Director. I’ve been in this position for seven years now. I haven’t applied for anything else. I’ve seen many offers come in on my desk. I’ve never taken it because I just didn’t feel that I finished what I needed to finish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, this aspect of not feeling good enough for the role, which then chipped away at your confidence, what would have made you feel like you were good enough?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Acknowledgement that the things that I had done, my projects, the accomplishments, being acknowledged for those particular accomplishments. And not like rewarded with pay rises or whatever, that wasn’t really my concern. It’s actually acknowledgement, acknowledgement that at the point in time that I finished it, that was very successful, and being presented with opportunities that would’ve allowed me to go further. But I sit here and I think, if I had that acknowledgement, I may have actually been a VP by now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you ever ask for feedback on what was missing-"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or what was at the source of the discontent?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, and try to work on those particular issues, and then so on, but still never got that opportunity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative) Okay. Never got the opportunity from this one particular manager?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sorry. I was just going to say, and it’s really interesting, that manager’s actually left."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, with your new manager, how’s that going?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s actually much better. There’s a very different methodology in his management styles. It was actually quite interesting the way that he responded to certain things compared to the previous manager, and I was actually quite taken back. I was actually stunned. I was like, “Oh my God. I’ve never experienced this in my life.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. One of the things that you just said, which is critical here is this is different."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, why are you holding onto the same story that was formed under your previous manager when this is different?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. The one thing is that I came to through reflection is that my self-esteem was so badly beaten, that I don’t know if I’ve got enough energy to be able to move on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We all hold on to, at some point or another, experiences that we’ve had that potentially then define how we react in the present."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Good or bad. It’s like, think about your favorite restaurant that you’ve been to, and you hold onto that experience. You’re like, “Oh my God, it was so good. It was so yummy. The service was exquisite.” And you go back to that restaurant because you expect it to be the exact same experience, right? And hopefully it is, right? But sometimes it’s not, and the same happens on the negative side. And so, when we hold onto that, when we hold onto an experience from the past to make assertions about what’s going to happen in the present, what do you think it gives us or gives you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I’m not sure actually. Yeah. I think it’s just that the fact is that we think that it’s always going to be the same, as you said."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And if it’s the same, then what does it do for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You think all of it is going to be the same, it’s always going to be the same."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And when things are the same, when things are predictable, when we think things are predictable, what do you… I don’t know about you, but when you think things are predictable, how do you respond? How does it make you feel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well in this situation, it’s very hard to get up in the morning. It’s the same… Yeah. It’s very, very difficult to actually go through it every single day. So it’s predictable, you… Monday mornings are okay. Tuesday mornings are terrible because you know that, that’s when you’re going to interact with your manager and so on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. But you know what’s going to happen, right? Whether it’s good or bad. And when we know what’s going to happen, when we know with certitude, and I’m saying no, let me actually [inaudible 00:10:10] We know what’s going to happen with certitude, what it gives us is a sense of control."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it’s a fake sense of control. And again, good or bad. I had a client once whose manager was really, really tough manager. It sounds similar to yours, but my client said, “But you know what? He’s like predictably bad. So therefore…” He goes, “He’s so predictably bad as a manager, I can prepare myself.” But that’s a sense of control. That’s a, “I know what to do in that situation, whether I’m going to fight back or I’m going to just cringe and have these emotions, or whatever it might be.” You’re in a different situation now though. You’re with a different manager. And so does the behavior or the reaction, the feelings that you’ve had in the past, in what way do they even help you in this current situation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yeah. In regards to predictability, no, they don’t because it’s totally different manager. So it’s actually creating those new type of experiences, which has actually been quite different. Well, for me it’s been unpredictable because I wasn’t used to it. I’m not used to it, especially after being with a manager in that particular circumstances, to come to a different type of manager, it’s the creation of a whole new experience. It’s actually creating those new relationships again, and I don’t know how I feel actually, honestly. I don’t know if I’ve got the confidence at the moment, or I’m just going through this new phase of just getting these new feelings about how things are different, or have I actually been able to create the confidence to say, “Okay…” I’ve actually been able to create the confidence to say, “Okay, I can do not only my job, but I can also move on and do something different.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Taking it away from the situation, when you are confident about something, what is it that makes you feel like you’re confident?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That I have the knowledge to be able to do what I do, and I do it well. That creates the confidence that I… yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Having the knowledge to do something, and being able to do it well makes you confident, and when it’s something new and you don’t know if you are going to do it well or not, then how do you end up being confident about trying it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Initially, it’s anxiety. A lot of it. But then it’s just basically learning it and learning it as quickly as possible and then mastering it, and that creates my confidence. When I’ve actually mastered it, that particular new technology or whatever, then the confidence is there. I know that I can do my job well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So, you have confidence around being able to do that, to learn something and master it, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep. Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And not surprisingly, because you’ve done it over and over and over again, which is what has led you to where you are."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so what I want to highlight for you, user, is the difference between having confidence in your ability to learn and master something versus having confidence in that ephemeral, we don’t even know what it is yet, next role. One is about having confidence in the process and the other is about having confidence in the outcome, the actual destination. They’re closely linked, but there’s a difference between the two. And so when I say that to you, how are you interpreting it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I do agree that the fact is the confidence in the process. So from that perspective, I do agree because something that I’ve learned for a very long time. I realize that potentially for the last couple of years, I’ve actually lost that path, where I’m not actually going through the process that actually really worked well for me in the past. And so I haven’t actually built my confidence through the process. The other one is confidence in the outcome."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Let me use an example for you. I have a kid who plays competitive sports and if you’ve ever played a competitive sport, of course you want to win. But in reality, the only thing you can control is how you play the game, not necessarily the outcome. We’ve seen some of the most amazing athletes get on a court, get on a field, wanting to win. That’s the desired outcome, but they can’t really control the outcome because the outcome is in the future. The only thing they can control is what’s happening in the here and now, which is how they play the game. In your case, how you play the game is this learning and mastering what is necessary to increase the probability of you getting that next role. But it doesn’t guarantee that you will get the next role. So why place your confidence on something that’s a variable that’s not guaranteed, that can be a moving target, that may not even be fully defined yet? Place your confidence, your belief in yourself in the things that you can control. And so what are the things that you can control?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s the process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s the process. You can’t control your manager. You can’t control other people. What they’re going to say, what they’re going to think. I mean, I don’t know if you can, let me know how you do it. We’ll be having a whole different conversation, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But all you can do is control the things that are in your control."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, absolutely agree with that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user’s in a tough situation here. His experience working with his previous manager impacted his view of himself and what he thinks he can accomplish. We make an important distinction at this point between having confidence in the outcome versus confidence in the process and effort. And by focusing on the latter, it brings him back to what is actually in his control, his effort. Let’s dive back in as I ask him, why has he given up the process that he knew worked for him and that helped him feel confident in the past?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think you’ve brought up a really interesting point. I think for some unknown reason, I’ve abandoned the process, which was very successful for me early on. So I had a very critical process of making sure that I learned and understood whatever we were doing, but for some unknown reason, for the last five years or so, I’ve abandoned that process. And it’s just my confidence has diminished significantly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What would it take for you to pick that process back up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think it’s much to actually pick it up. The fact is just going back and looking at how I did it in the past, and actually asking myself, “What am I not doing at the present that I did very, very successfully 10 years ago? Even five years ago, and I did it very well? Why is it that I’ve abandoned that particular process?” And get rid of that, get that out of my mind, why I did it, and just go back to actually saying, “Okay, I just need to go through this process of actually mastering what I need to master.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I mean, look, I think part of when you have a crisis of confidence, part of what is very helpful is to look at your track record. What have I been able to do? And understand where that came from, where it led you to, and to what extent could whatever that is be helpful to you today. Why you didn’t do it, I mean, I don’t know. Why do I sometimes wake up and not work out, even though I do it pretty consistently and then it turns into a week or two weeks of not working out? I don’t know. Maybe I’m tired. Maybe I’ve lost my mojo. Maybe it’s like, “Where is this getting me?” I mean, there are a number of different reasons why we momentarily or permanently give up on something."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I think from what you actually just said a moment ago, your mojo. And I actually believe I lost my mojo and I’ve lost it for some time, and I’ve just actually been tracking the last number of years as a zombie through my work, just going through it and so on, rather than really being living it. That’s not exactly the word that I was wanting, but the fact is that in my early part of my career, it was like living my role. I really enjoyed it. I did it without question. And the mojo was really high, but why did I lose my mojo the last couple years? I think it comes back to the vicious cycle of just self-esteem. Had actually been really badly hit. And so it was just going through every day saying, “Okay, I’m just going to do just enough to get through the role.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Because if you did just enough, then there really wouldn’t be much more room for somebody to tell you you’re not good enough. So that was your response to that situation. Understandably so. I get it. We all respond to situations differently, but I will never take away what your response was. The question for me is just doing good enough; what you need right now. And only you can answer that. I’m asking you that without judgment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was just thinking to myself. Yeah, just why I was going through that process of doing just enough. That’s a big question for me. It’s why I was doing that. And it does come down to self-esteem and so on, and other problems within the last couple of years. But at that point in time, when I was just doing enough, why did I not just say to myself, “Move on?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, you have to sit with that, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In terms of why you did that. It’s good to understand the why, but you should never let the why get in the way of you moving forward. Sometimes, what we bring to any given situation is how the situation’s going to meet us. So let me just explain that in your context. If that was happening in your case, and the situation that you were faced with was constant messages of, “You’re not good enough,” you can then show up as not good enough or just doing the bare minimum. There are times when we will reflect or react or meet the situation as a reflection of what it is giving to us. All right? If you’re acting in a reactionary mode, meaning you’re just reacting to what’s happening around you, the next step to not be reactive is to say, “Regardless of what’s happening around me, regardless of the messages I’m getting, regardless of a manager telling me that yet again, I didn’t do this report correctly,” it doesn’t necessarily change your sense of who you are. That to me is where confidence comes from, that regardless of the storm, regardless of what’s happening, regardless of the challenges, it does not affect the deepest core of your confidence, which is your self-worth. And so when I say that to you, how does that relate to you and your situation and the question you have around why was it okay for me to do the bare minimum? And why did I not just leave?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good question. That was pretty deep, actually. That comment. You’re right. I did the bare minimum because the response that I was actually getting is exactly what you said, the fact is that it was a very negative response. So deep down in my heart, it was very much the situation I’m thinking I wasn’t worthy of anything worthy of myself. The fact is that when I looked at what I was doing, it was so overbearing and so on, but I just didn’t know how to get out of it. And so my situation was because I didn’t have that… Again, this comes down to belief. I didn’t have the technical education and so on. I didn’t believe that I was capable of going outside of where I was and getting another role. So for me, it was my family, my children… so for me, it was my family, my children, my wife, and ensuring that I was able to support them. So that’s why I stayed. And then so on. I would rather go through the pain than losing the position, and not being able to earn."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And look, I mean, what you’re saying there around why you stayed for your family and to be able to make a living, there’s no shame in that. That was your purpose for that moment in time. And so the fact that you found a purpose and anchor for that moment in time to get you through and the trade off was not moving on to a different role, is actually very empowering. You made a choice, you made a conscious choice to stay. I want you to hold that because as long as you can make a conscious choice of what you’re doing at every given moment, and there is a purpose associated with it, then you are standing up for yourself. That’s what we call agency, right? Your ability to see what’s in front of you and make a choice. Even if that choice is accompanied with some difficulty and some pain, it’s far different than you just staying and having no idea why you stayed. You just stay because it’s comfortable to stay. Because the difficulty and the pain is more comfortable than trying something new. You got to give yourself some credit around you being able to consciously make that decision. And the reason I’m highlighting this for you, user, is I’m holding the mirror up to you to recognize the very difficult things that you have been able to do. And when you can harness those things that starts creating that feeling of confidence, that belief of, “I can do hard things.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well interesting, because I didn’t look at it in that perspective, actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In what way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You put it in the factor that I was able to deal with hard things. I actually looked at it in a different way, in a more negative way and said, “Well, why are you so weak?” When you look at it in two different ways, the results are totally different. So saying to myself, “Well, I wasn’t able to deal with this and fix it,” showed weakness. When you start to think at it from that perspective, that negativity starts to reflect on your life in general. But if you look at it from the perspective of how you actually put it, just a moment of go, well, you were able to climb parts of Mount Everest, and you were able to succeed, even though you’re constantly being slapped in the face. It was you were able to stand there and keep moving forward. So there’s the positive part of it rather than negative. So from the positive perspective you’d say, “Well, you have been successful.” And so that success then relates back to a positive mindset, and a positive body and physical self, because then you’re saying, “Okay, I’ve been able to overcome a lot of adversity.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think from my perspective is to not to look at everything as it’s too difficult, as you said, this negative, positive response. At the moment, it’s very, very negative. So rather than actually looking at it, as you mention, from a negative perspective, don’t actually have that perspective at all. Don’t have that view that it is negative, or it’s going to be too hard for me to be able to do it, but rather actually just go through the process. If I go and master this or learn this, or whatever happens, either negative or positive, it’s actually going to benefit me. Just don’t think about it as even negative/positive, but just think about what is the benefit? How does it actually help me move forward?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Amazing what you just said, because when you just name it as a benefit, it neutralizes, “Well, is it a positive benefit to me and a negative to somebody else or vice versa?” It just is, right? Same with the process. The minute you start saying, “Oh, the process is hard,” or, “The process is easy,” or, “The process is this, the process is that,” that’s just the seasoning that you’re adding on the process, you know?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But in reality, is it’s just a process. And regardless of whether it’s harder or whether it’s easy, what you have to decide is, “Do I want to engage in the process?” Regardless of whether it’s hard or easy, that’s the first step."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then as you face it, you decide, “Oh, okay. So, hmm, yes, this part is challenging. So, I need to do X,” but you make those choices as you go. So, you’ve highlighted, you used the word mindset shift. And I think that that is really at the core of being able to feel confident is, are you aligning your mind, are you aligning your beliefs and your thoughts with a feeling of confidence? It’s very interesting because if you look at the word, “Confidence,” and you sort of look at the root of it, there is, I believe, well this is what I was told. So if that person told me the wrong thing don’t blame me. But at the root of it is, the origin confidelis, which fidelis in its Latin root means, do you know what it means?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It means faith."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, if we think about confidence, it actually means operating with faith. And this is not religious in any way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay? But when you then look at, well, what does faith mean? What does it mean to operate with faith? Operating with faith basically means faith is belief in the unknown."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very true. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, to have confidence is actually the complete opposite of operating in a way where you have full knowledge and control of what’s going to happen. Confidence is your ability to put your step forward without necessarily knowing what’s going to happen. And so the opposite of operating in that way, the opposite of operating with, “Faith,” if you will, is operating with fear."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, correct. And I think I’ve done that quite a bit, actually"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Operated with fear?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah, operated with fear rather than confidence. There is a fear factor that my peers getting in a lot more recognition than what I was. So the fear came into that. Why am I not getting that? So rather than actually looking at the confidence and what I actually possessed and using the process, I was looking at something else, something that I, as you said, cannot control."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I think part of your practice, user, is becoming more aware of what that track is, what that script is, what those beliefs are that you so very well have on repeat. And when they come up for you ask yourself, “Is this belief in this moment helping me get to where I want to go, or is it hindering me?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Based upon that statement, I see a lot of situations just recently where I’ve actually thought it’s hindering me, absolutely. I’m thinking why certain things are actually happening, when I rather, I should say, as you said very clearly, I should look at the way that that particular person is executing something and learn from that experience rather than looking at it in a jealous, envious way. So rather than looking at it and saying, “Well, I’m not getting any recognition, I’m doing all this work and they are,” have a look at the system that they’re using and try to adopt that exact same system and then see how it actually plays out with me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So what you’re talking about here is just making a choice around how you want to think about [crosstalk 00:35:40]-"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly, exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "… before you take action, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your power, which is what we gain when we become more confident, we gain power-"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "… self-power. Your power is in your ability to make a choice. That’s where your power comes from. When we feel like we can’t make a choice, or because there is no choice, we feel powerless. You feel contained, you feel boxed in. And so that – [inaudible 00:36:01]. You feel contained. You feel boxed in. And so that’s why even the situation you were in where you were like, “I can stay and deal with this bully boss or I can leave,” … The fact that you made a choice … Still, I would suggest that you see the power in making that choice and not judge the choice you made."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. Good point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You made the choice. And it’s similar to now as you decide, “What perspective is going to help or hinder me?” It’s not to say that one is better than the other. It’s just, “Which one is going to help or hinder me?” That’s it. No judgment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sorry, I’m just reflecting with your comments, actually, on various moments in my career where I’ve looked at the process and thought to myself, “Have I … What are my choices? What have I done?” And I’ve actually realized just a moment ago that were, actually, were choices that were quite positive but I potentially had seen them as a negative rather than … I understand what you’re saying is not to put a title on it but I look at it and say … that I’ve done things where I’ve said, “Well, okay. That was a choice that you made but you did it for a reason and don’t regret … ” Don’t look at it as a negative or regret that particular decision but look at it and say there was a choice that took a lot of guts to be able to say, “Okay, let’s go and do that,” and continue to go through whatever issues I’ve had in the past. I’ve realized that there were many times over the last 10 years or so that I could have quite easily have thought of as quite a negative situation. The choice was made. It didn’t hinder me in the sense that even though I didn’t get a promotion or whatever, I’ve still been somewhat successful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And when you know why you make the choice or you know why you’re doing what you’re doing, that’s what gives it a sense of purpose and meaning."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right? And a sense of purpose and meaning is what energizes you and that’s what having your mojo is."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah. Understood."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I just want to highlight for you, again, this notion of find meaning in everything you’re doing and be intentional and mindful about how you’re thinking about something so that then you can be intentional and purposeful and mindful around how you feel about it and the action you’re going to take. Okay. Let’s take all that and bring it back to where you are today. If you think about what your aspiration is in terms of potentially becoming a CIO, what do you think … Based on what we talked about, what do you think you will need to change or shift to or expand on in order to better align yourself or increase the probability that you can assume a CIO role one day?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "If I was talking about a technical perspective … If I put it in particular buckets, okay? If I talked about the technical aspects of it, yeah there is a little bit more I need to learn. From a personal perspective, I don’t need to be so critical of myself. And rather than thinking that, what is it that you want to understand and learn and how do you actually change your personality accordingly?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There it is. You just outlined, right? It’s the moving from, “I can’t do this,” or, “I’m not good enough,” to, “I need to learn and there’s still room to grow and there are areas in the way that I behave or some of the expertise that I have that I need to better align with the outcome that I’d like to have.” I don’t even like to use the word change because we’re not changing who you are; we’re expanding who you are. There are muscles that I have not yet built that I need to build. That’s the shift. And you give yourself permission to make that mindset shift when you take on exactly what you just said, which is, “Gosh, I’m very critical of myself.” Right? But guess what, user? That’s what your former manager was doing, it sounds like. He was being super critical so why are you now replacing him when he’s gone?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. Exactly. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. I think it came down to the fact that it just became a habit. You’re expecting it so your mind’s saying, “Well, you’re expecting it.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right. And if you do want a break that habit, which it very much sounds like that’s what you want to do, that’s why you’re here today, the only way to break that habit is to then take on a different role towards yourself. You know who the critical user is. He’s there. And by the way, he’s not going to go away. You just need to know … You need to recognize when he’s showing up and tell him, “Shh. Shut up, critical user.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, I’m going to go with cheerleader user."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because cheerleader user says, “Brother, you still have … Yeah, you got stuff to learn. Yeah, there’s a tough road ahead but we’ve done this before. Let’s go.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. You’re 100% correct on that. Understanding that or returning back to that old process that was so faithful to me for such a long period of time, which actually created a massive amount of mojo … I would be so excited about what I was doing. Yeah, you’re right. Actually, going back to that older me or, potentially, much younger me and actually doing that … going through that process I can definitely agree that my mojo would come back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And in doing that, what you’re reclaiming, user, is that part of yourself that you feel you lost …"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "… Under those different conditions."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. Thank you very much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I truly understand that now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re welcome. I typically ask at the end what your takeaways are but I feel like you already went there. But I will ask, what’s the one thing that you feel you can do differently today as you face your work day as a result of this discussion?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the one thing that I definitely will do first thing is not being so critical of myself and everything else. And the word that I always use is that mindset shift, actually saying that looking at situations which you very articulately spoke about before is when I say things, I saw it as a negative. But actually seeing it and reflecting upon it and saying, “It’s not really a negative . It’s just a decision that you’ve made. Or it’s a decision you can make that has potentially a more powerful and positive response.” I think that’s the big thing here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A loss of confidence can be really hard to deal with. We’ve all been there. The question is how quickly we can find our mojo again. And, like user, it requires looking at what got you through those moments in the past and making a choice on what you need to think and do to move forward. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Thanks to my producer, Mary Due, music composer Brian Campbell, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners, who share in their journeys. If you’re dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show. Apply at CoachingRealLeaders.com and you can find me on LinkedIn, on Twitter, @MurialMWilkins or on Instagram at @CoachMurialWilkins. If you loved the show and learned from it, pay it forward. Share it with your friends, subscribe, leave a review. From HBR Presents, this is coach AI."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "He’s part of a real estate organization and loves his work but wonders what his future looks like at the company and how his role could grow in the coming decades."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call user to protect his confidentiality. He’s been a project manager at a real estate development company for around five years after spending time in finance and in the public sector and after getting his MBA. user has started thinking about the ways he can develop his niche at the company and move forward in his career in part by focusing on a small but growing part of the business."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I really began to think of it as an intrapreneurial role. I started to really do some research around that and think of myself… Even though I don’t have a separate P&L for this business, I wanted to start thinking like that and start putting myself into that mindset. And part of what I’m navigating right now and in need of some further guidance on, is making that mental switch and also this sort of career adjustment that’s perhaps pushing the envelope a little bit relative to where I am in my career now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user is thinking about the ways that his personal goals can align with the goals of the company. Even when there isn’t a formal path to getting there, he’s thinking about how he can be more intrapreneurial."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would like to really be running this business unit. I, for a long time and perhaps to some degree still, have kind of entrepreneurial ambitions and if the right opportunity presented itself for me to go out on my own, I certainly would strongly consider that. But I’ve also realized that there’s a path that could be equally for fulfilling where I do that within the context of a larger organization. But I know that to accomplish that I’m going to need to kind of create that role for myself. It doesn’t exist today, it’s not like there’s someone else in that job that I can eventually replace it. It’s a whole new job description, if you will, and so kind of crafting the job I want and then moving myself into it is kind of what I’m seeking to do in a way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user came to coaching looking to specifically figure out how to carve out this other path. Let’s dive into the conversation now as I ask him more about why he wants to take his career in this direction instead of staying on the track he’s on."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absent any deliberate effort on my part, I could just follow that track and be here thirty years from today doing the same kind of job but in a different way. And I realized that that’s not what I want to do. I want more than that, I want to have a business development aspect to my job, I want to really have some ownership. I eventually want to have sort of people working under me that I can mentor and coach and grow into a real organization within the organization, if you will. So, in order to do that, I have to kind of create that role. You know, I was promoted a little while ago, but in this capacity I’m still viewed largely on paper and by certain folks in the organization as an execution person, right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not as a business leader. It’s not an officer role like a vice president role would be. So, part of it is overcoming the mindset hurdle of others to see me as someone who’s already starting down this path of being a business leader within the company and not just a individual contributor execution person. So, that’s part of the obstacle is getting others to see me in that way and to embrace my vision for what my future looks like and how that could dovetail with what’s in the company’s best interest."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay. Understood. So, why don’t we start with that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative)."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because of the two questions that you surfaced are very much connected with each other. One is, what’s the mindset and habit that you need to shift to in order to be an effective intrapreneur? And the other is, how do you change the mindset and habitual way that people perceive you so that they view you as an intrapreneur? Right? So, we’re sort of like chicken and egg."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is as a very much… just kind of hand in hand parallel path thing going on, and too much progress in one area starts to kind of run up against not enough progress in the other area."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In what way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, if I really push on the changing my habits and I’m trying to shift kind of how I spend my time every day, I can only go so far with that before someone says, “Yeah, but your current job is X and you got to still do that.” So, to move them along that path, I have to get them to begin to see me as, “Oh, no, he should be spending his time on this business development stuff, for example, because that is part of the role he’s increasingly playing.” So, I kind of view these things as moving in lockstep. As I evolve, I need to make sure others are evolving as well in how they perceive me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So, I mean, in essence you’re straddling the two variables that I sometimes chat about, which is you’re straddling knocking out of the park your current performance in your day job while demonstrating your future potential in what you aspire to be. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And here’s the good and bad news. The good news is you have an opportunity to do that, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Like you have a field where you can play both. The bad news is you’ve got to play both for a while and you’ve got a parallel path on them. Like, it’s you almost want to think about them as two businesses; one that you are already solidified and you’re maintaining it, which is your current performance – the things that you are currently responsible for – while you have the side hustle, you know…"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "…this other business that you’re building, and you’re kind of in the stage of building the business case for it. Right? Not quite sure how people are going to respond. So, from the sense of one rubs up against the other, I guess I’m going to offer to you ­– how can you think about them as an “and” rather than “one versus the other.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that is a great point and I think it is what I have been doing as this has evolved. I want to be clear that my boss, for example, and some of the others in the region are supportive of kind of the direction I’m trying to take things, and I think they do see this pathway for me as being a legitimate and relevant kind of path for the company. So, I don’t want to make it sound like I’m pushing everybody uphill against their will. There’s definitely support there, but it is an “and.” It’s both doing the current job at an exceptional level and I’m increasingly working on, how do I do that more efficiently? Is there ways to delegate? Is their “fat to be trimmed” there that can make room for the side hustle to grow? That’s been and it is an ongoing effort. And then the side hustle – I realize I have to demonstrate value in that side hustle in order for it to be able to grow. Right? That only if I show the time that I’m spending on that is creating value, okay, well, then you can do more of that. And so, for a period of time, I’ve got to juggle both and do both and I have no illusions about that. I think I want to kind of begin with the end in mind here and think about in two or three years when I’m hopefully at the point of letting the side hustle take over, if you will, that I’ve done everything that I can and need to do to make sure that happens."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, no, absolutely. So, what you’re looking at is kind of a gradual shift in proportion in terms of the energy and focus and time that you spend on the day job versus the side hustle, right? So –"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "– you have a certain amount of time and energy to spend on anything and the question is where do you focus it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, if I’m hearing you, it sounds like you have the support internally, so that’s not the rub. But it sounds like the rub is in how you allocate yourself so that you can still do the current job effectively, but give attention to the growing business and be in an intrapreneur there so that by the time it’s full scale, there’s actually a business that you can run."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I think that is the area that I struggle with the most – because while I can intellectually acknowledge that what got me here won’t get you there, as my old boss used to say, it’s one thing to say that, it’s another thing to let go of the things that have made you successful and some, perhaps, a perfectionist in some ways. And let go of some of those things so that you can make that room."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what are the things that you feel like you need to let go of in your current role?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say more and more delegation is something that I need to continue to work on. My first inclination when there’s something to be done is to think, how am I going to get this done? How many extra hours is this going to take? And I probably should be at least in parallel, if not in the first place asking, does this need to be done, period? And then if so, who should do it? Like who’s the right person? Maybe I’m not the right person. The delegation piece and kind of letting go of the control kind of delegate both the task and the authority behind that, you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative)."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And not kind of keeping my fingers in it to much…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Right. Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "… which is really hard sometimes. I think that’s definitely one of the things I need to work on. And then I think the other thing, which I sort of alluded to, I’ve never really developed a good dial for… quality is not the right word… but the effort dial. I either do things at a ten or I don’t do them, right? I don’t really have a one through nine, and that’s fine when you’re a student, that’s fine when you’re an individual contributor with kind of a manageable kind of load. But I think increasingly I’ve got to develop more shades of that effort in order to – because not every task deserves an A, right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sure doesn’t."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And some tasks, a C effort is perfect. And guess what? You’re not going to get any credit for doing more than that. So, anything you do above a C is kind of wasted, and it’s hard to admit that as the person doing the work, but it’s kind of like this task doesn’t need more than that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, user, the answer lives within you, right? Like you literally just came up with your own for framework. I’m not even sure why I’m here coaching you. You’re coaching yourself! Because in essence, if the goal is to create more space so that you can then allocate that energy, that time, that focus to building the business, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative)."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, the question becomes, how do I create space? I think what you’ve articulated is really a two-step process. The first is delegating. So, shifting from I do the work to who else can do the work if it needs to be done. And then the second is if I do the work – meaning if user does the work – what does doing the work look like? Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Does it always need to be full throttle on ten? Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The question is, can you have the discipline to go through that process?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And one of the things that you might want to consider is before you even start doing that for tasks that are going to come your way, that you can start by actually doing an inventory of what’s currently on your plate."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hmm, interesting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, if you were to post our conversation, look at your to-do list, or even do an inventory of over the past month, if you could roll the tape back and ask yourself those same questions; A, should I be the one doing it? Should it be done? A, should it be done?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that’s the most brutal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "B, should I be the one doing it ,right? Should it be done? You know, kind of going through those questions because what that will come up is, well, what do you need to know to actually answer those questions? So, when you think about should something be done, what do you base that on? How do you even make that decision?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the answer to that has and continues to evolve for me. In the past, I might have said, “well, it needs to be done because it’s pertinent to a project success or it’s something my superior is asking me to do, or it’s going to have a direct kind of impact on my performance review and perception.” Right? And all of those things probably are still valid, but perhaps are shrinking in their relative proportion to questions like is this going to move the needle on this business I’m creating? Is this going to drive revenue or an outcome that’s going to lead to revenue versus is this just moving pieces around the board and not really getting anywhere? Maybe there’s, like I said, some brutal honesty that needs to happen with myself to say, “This might feel good to be doing this and it feels like you’re making progress, but it’s not really moving the needle and maybe you need to let it go, because you enjoy doing it, maybe you like doing it in the past, but it’s no longer serving the broader objective."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s absolutely right. And here’s the thing – it’s very hard to make that distinction if you don’t have clarity around what the broader objective is. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, mm-hmm (affirmative)."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, just because something has become in the it’s-something-nice-to-do category as you put, it doesn’t mean it’s moving the needle. But it used to move the needle, and so what’s the difference? The difference is in the goal. What is it moving the needle towards? Right? What is the destination? And so, I think a big piece of this and probably why you’re experiencing some tension here is that the uber objectives have changed, but your focus and your habits and your mindset, as you put it, have not completely shifted over. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And in a way they need to play in both sandboxes. So, when it comes to delegating and starting with that decision point of, is this something that needs to be done? The way to filter through that is make sure that you have clarity around what the overlying objectives are, and determine based on those objectives, does this fall in the path?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. The question I had was sort of… You know, as you’re trying to think through what that broader objective is, in some ways it feels like that broader objective is becoming less about me directly in a way in the sense of, I’m not doing this thing because there’s a direct line between completion of this task and my own sort of performance. The line has become kind of more squiggly and it’s sort of like this task, this thing, this subject is going to drive revenue and grow the business. I benefit from that growing business, therefore, this benefits me. It’s almost like introducing kind of another level or layer that I’m realizing I need to be thinking through kind of that lens versus the old lens of more of the individual contributor. You know, this is my little fiefdom, I just need to manage this to kind of more broadly thinking there’s a business to be grown here and it’s going to take time and there’s lots of steps involved and there’s going to be a winding path. Eventually it will all… The success that I have personally in my career is directly linked to that, it’s just maybe not as straight a line as it used to be in a way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I mean, what you’re articulating is you’re scaling up because before, the goals were sort of a direct line to what you can impact as an individual, and now you’re seeing it as there’s a bigger goal, right? It’s at the business level, so you’re leveling up. It’s no different than being, for lack of a better metaphor, a bachelor and all you have to think about is yourself. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then all of a sudden you got the partner and the kids and it’s like, “Ooh, now I’ve got to think of the family.” Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But a lot of people say, “Yeah, but don’t lose sight of yourself as well.” So, it’s an – and so, in this particular situation, you’re moving from bachelor to the family in terms of you’ve now got to think about something bigger than yourself while not losing sight of the things that are responsible for taking care of you, i.e. your current position."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. That’s a really interesting, I think, relevant way to think about it and perhaps resonates only because I do have a small child now and sort of learning to respect new constraints and limitations that I have, that are definitely uncomfortable, right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative)."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For someone who sort of didn’t always have to make those considerations, so it’s a really interesting kind of analogy to think about a kid – and you’ve got to nurture it and grow it and make room for it and have a vision for what it will become, nd it’s never going to stop growing and evolving so you have to keep up with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But you also, I think, make a great point. You can’t lose sight of yourself and in this professional context, it’s the job at hand that is still what I do on paper."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which will also evolve."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Right. Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s take a pause here. user has already spent a lot of time thinking about what to do next and, as I mentioned to him, he’s really coaching himself. But as he thought about the constraints that he faces, the example of what it can be like to have a new child really struck a chord with him that helped him see his situation in a new light. Just like having a newborn required him to change his considerations when he became a parent, he’ll need to shift how he manages himself as he moves to being more intrapreneurial. I wanted to dig a little bit deeper here to see how he approaches his current constraints and to ask him how he decides where to spend his time and energy. Let’s jump back in as he responds."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Usually my first step and my first thought is to try to just be more efficient like we were saying earlier, right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative)."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The ultimate answer, and the one that I’m coming to terms with, is being more selective about what you agree to do in the first place and being much more… just being really choosy, I guess, and really recognizing that you’ve got to say no to a lot more than you used to keep the things that really matter. And as you said earlier, that requires having clarity on what really matters and that’s a process in and of itself, I think. But efficiency is only going to take you so far I think, and then you have to say, “okay, prioritization and really trimming out the things that aren’t moving the needle” – whether as a parent or as a professional – “trimming those things out I think is ultimately what has to happen,” and that’s, I think, a lot of where the challenge is but where the opportunity lies also."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right. Because as cliché as it sounds – I love it. I love this cliché – but when you say no to something, you’re saying yes to something else."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, the question is what are you saying yes to? And your disposition tends to be to start with, “Okay, how can I make this more efficient?” And then you’re saying, “But maybe I should be shifting to, ‘no, let me think about how I can be more selective and move into prioritization.’” That shift is a shift between being reactive to being proactive. When you’re saying, “Okay, what’s on my plate, how can I be more efficient?” It’s, “I’m reacting to what’s in front of me and trying to triage.” Right? Versus, “Oh, let me think about what is the highest and best use of my time for what this current job needs, as well as what that side hustle, that building business needs. Let me be very clear around what I have to offer, what it needs, and then find that intersection of what is the highest and best use of my energy and my focus and my time,” and use that as the filter for deciding where you put your time and energy and focus, at least 80% of it, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s always going to be that 20% that –"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, doing the laundry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Exactly. You were reading my mind, user."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You still got to do the laundry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Doing the laundry. Still got to do it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nobody gets away with that one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, I try to delegate it, I don’t get very far. So, when you start thinking about it from that standpoint, the question of what is the highest and best use of – and this is a real estate term so I know you get it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What is the highest best use of user as it relates to these two areas that you are responsible for? How do you think about it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, and as you were walking me through that, the thing that really came to my mind – and this relates to your previous comment about having clarity on the vision or the goal as being a necessary kind of prerequisite. I was reminded of when I was in my MBA program. I went to school, I was a little bit of an older student relative to my peers and I had a laser focus. I went there, I’m here to get an MBA in corporate finance and real estate. I have zero FOMO. I do not have a single FOMO bone in my body, and I’m just going to say no to virtually everything that doesn’t align with that objective of adding this real estate skillset and then getting a job in this field. I was pretty brutal, I mean, to the point where one might argue I took it too far and didn’t do enough kind of fun exploratory things. But I was really, really clear;”This is what I’m here to do, and I’m making this investment in myself. I’m not going to dillydally with other things that aren’t directly aligned with that.” I don’t know why I didn’t think of this until this conversation, but I can’t remember another time in my life when I’ve had that much clarity that was really then followed through with actual action and behavior change and really saying no to things that don’t align. And not being ashamed to do that – not feeling mixed feelings of about, “Oh, I’m letting this person down, or what are they going to think of me because I’m telling them ‘no’ about this?” I was unapologetic."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Unapologetic, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I need to take a page out of that book, I think, here. Really get that clarity on both the side hustle and the current role and then just be unapologetic about, “These are the things that I’m pursuing until somebody tells me otherwise,” that counts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, and I think there at the core of it lies your definition of the mindset of an intrapreneur, right? It starts with… I mean, I don’t think you’ll find this in the MBA books of the unapologetic that you’ll see it termed as conviction and purpose and passion, but we’re going to call it unapologetic, okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I’m with you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Laser focused. Right? So, my question to you is what will it take for you to get that level of clarity now in this current context?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I think it is going to need to start with some reflection on what are those goals in both areas, because I think maybe they’ve kind of changed a little bit in recent times and I haven’t fully taken that on board. So, getting that clarity first because that conviction, that unapologetic nature, I think comes best when you have that clarity. Like, my propensity while someone asks me to help with X, Y, or Z is you want to please people, you want to be liked in the workplace, you want to be reliable and you want to be the person who always has a solution or, you know? That’s historically been my sort of self-defining feature, and not that I want to be a complete jerk, but there’s room in there to move in that direction of being a little bit more assertive, borderline prickly to just be clear on that. And then you’re like, “Let me point you in a different direction.” It’s not like just “no, go away” but it’s finding the right tools and words to redirect those incoming things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great. So, in that, the reason why the clarity of goals grounded in the business is important for you… it’s because without that you won’t have a good reason to delegate or to say no and not be who you habitually have been which is to do everything, right? And my guess is that just saying no for the sake of saying no is not a good enough reason for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In essence it’s creating boundaries, putting a stake in the ground, so that you can create some boundaries and those boundaries lead 80% of the way. We don’t want it to have so much rigidity that you lose sight of things, but how you make sure that you maintain some flexibility is that you’ve revisited time to time. This question of highest and best use and clarity of goal is not a one and done. I’d say particularly now as you’re building this thing and you’re looking to shift your focus from one to the other, you should be revisiting it every couple of months."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that’s a great point, and having that regularity is definitely not something I’ve been intentional about."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which segues nicely into the other question you had, which is, “how do I create – harness – the mindset of an intrapreneur?” So, when you think about what’s the mindset that you need to shift to, how do you define the mindset of an intrapreneur?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I certainly think a big part of it is what we were talking about earlier, having that clear focus, the conviction, the unapologetic nature of that. I think having a mindset that’s flexible and creative around how things get done… that sort of plays into the delegation a little bit, but I think it maybe is broader than that – of just having an outcomes-oriented mindset versus  an inputs-oriented mindset, right? Putting three hours or thirty hours into this is irrelevant. What’s relevant is does, the outcome match what’s needed? I guess proactive would be another key piece of it; to your earlier point. There’s a lot that comes at you every day and not all of it really deserves your attention or your effort, and you have to sort through that but you kind of need to do so more proactively rather than just being in the midst of the river kind of having the water push past you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, if you were to think about a theme to the mindset that you’ve had to date before you became an intrapreneur, what would be the theme or the title to that soundtrack?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hmm. That’s a really good question. I mean the word that comes to mind first is kind of intensity. It would definitely be kind of a heavy metal soundtrack that’s just kind of constant and sort of not nuanced in any way. And there’s a there’s level of just pushing, pushing, pushing constantly, and maybe not having as much of a rudder, right? It’s all kind of forward thrust and not as much kind of guidance. And I feel like that’s been fine, that’s got me here, but I realize that what’s needed going forward is much more nuance and kind of guidance around, where do you focus that thrust?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what would be the theme and soundtrack to your intrapreneur music?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, I feel like it would be, like I said, equally intense. Intensity wasn’t really the distinguishing thing, but it’s almost like a really… I’m trying to think of like a very intense classical music piece like Flight of the Valkyries or something where it’s very – there’s a lot of precision and nuance and clarity built into every note, but it’s equally voluminous and kind of filling of the room, you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative)."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Similarly, I’m not expecting or seeking for my professional life to be any less driven or hectic or demanding. To the contrary, I know it’s going to continue to be, but it’s about being demanding in the right areas in the right ways."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what I hear in commonality between the two themes is the activity part doesn’t go away, the execution part doesn’t go away."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right? But one which, is the former, as an individual contributor’s activity that falls within directive potentially, but there’s a lot of activity with a lot of intensity and it’s a lot of doing. And what I’m hearing in terms of an intrapreneur – in terms of what you’re saying – is, yeah, there’s a lot of activity but it’s aligned with certain outcomes or certain goals, which is really interesting because I heard… I don’t know who said this. You’ll have to excuse me, my memory is horrible when it comes to remembering names. But I heard somebody once describe or I read somebody describe intrapreneurs as “dreamers who do.” Dreamers who do. I love that because it basically synthesizes exactly what you said. It’s the “and.” It’s the “and” between the vision and the goal and the clarity of that goal and the execution – the things that need to make it happen, and that’s what an intrapreneur and an entrepreneur do. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Right. Yeah, a hundred percent, and I’m going to revise my previous statement about the soundtrack because I realize that was missing something. I think that the entrepreneurial soundtrack is probably more like John Coltrane. There’s a huge amount of technical proficiency that underlies it, but it’s very creative and free-flowing and entrepreneurial, everything that an entrepreneur or intrapreneur needs to be. And it has a melody and there’s a clear consistency to the music and it always resolves it itself where it is going, but the path there is totally improvised, right? And that’s kind of how I see that as coming sort of together in my mind. As a former saxophonist, I should have thought of that initially."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, my son is a saxophonist so…"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There you go. That’s nice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "… a current saxophonist. A thriving one, so I can totally relate."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Awesome."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I want you to carry that, right? I want to carry these soundtracks because that’s something that you can feel."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were talking about the heavy metal, I could feel it. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I could feel being in a heavy metal environment. I could feel it inside, I feel it in even the way you were describing it, and I could feel a shift in the way you presented yourself and your energy when you talked about it being more of a John Coltrane soundtrack, and that’s something you feel. So, I want you to use this element of soundtrack just as a signal for you as to when you’re operating more in one mindset versus the other."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And using that as the flag of, “what shift do I need to make, whether it’s one to the other?” Because right now you’re straddling."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, it’ll give you a sense of when you need to shift gears."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A hundred percent. No, I feel like that literally changing the soundtrack, because I do listen to a lot of heavier music in the car these days… that’s more been my mode of operating and I was sitting here thinking when was the last time I listened to John Coltrane or any of the other Charlie Parker or the saxophonists that I used to really enjoy listening to when I was playing actively. It’s been a long time, but that resonates very, very strongly. And I think you’re right, the question is like, okay, how do I decide which CD to put in the changer? Right? Is today a heavy metal day or is today more of a jazz day and figuring that out and navigating that. You said something earlier in the conversation that I think I do want to kind of come back to here around the discipline. Following the discipline, rehabituating to this notion of, okay, when something new comes down the pike, the algorithm I’m going to put it through has to change. The steps that I’m taking as I’m thinking through what to do with this thing has to be different. And we’re representing that in this music here, it’s not just – it used to be throw it on the pile and keep plugging and full blast, right? Full volume. And now it’s more of, okay, I need to work it in a more nuanced way. There’s a few notes in my solo that I’m going to add as a result of this, but I’m not changing the whole structure of the song and maybe I’m not even incorporating it at all. Maybe it’s just something that needs to pass me by,"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By now, user has a very clear idea of the steps he needs to take to get on the path he wants – to steadily shift from always doing everything in the mode of an individual contributor to learning to decide what is most vital for him to spend his time on. I wanted to work through some real examples with him to make sure he didn’t just get it conceptually, but could actually apply it after our coaching meeting,"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thinking of a very sort of tangible nuts and bolts example of this, in the past, when I’ve received outreach from other vendors or contractors or architects who reach out to me and say, “Hey, I’ve heard about this new project you’ve got and whatever, we’d love to come talk to you about what we do.” They’re trying to generate new business on their end, and historically more on often than not, I was engaging in those conversations or at least entertaining them and maybe giving people a half an hour of my time, mainly to grow my network and to grow my exposure. More recently, I have started to put, for lack of a better word, a script together of a very nice way of saying, “I can’t do that and here’s why.” And importantly – and this is really the critical little nuance – not leaving the door open and in a very professional, nice way. I need to kind of move that incoming aside, right? That’s kind of an obvious example and a low hanging fruit that I’ve already self-identified. It definitely feels like it’s something that’s going to just require a lot of practice and intentional effort. That’s kind of why I like the idea you said earlier about start by looking backward, things that have already happened and do an inventory. Like, “yes, you’ve already done this thing or it’s already entered your to-do list, but how did you do?” It’s like, score yourself from the past and where could or should I have done differently. That, to me, feels like that would be an easier way to kind of get in the water because when you’re just dealing with the stuff coming at you in the midst of the day, you’re in that sort of live fire environment. It’s really hard to add new frameworks to that, right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’re just trying to stay – and I’m totally mixing my metaphors here – you’re just trying to stay afloat right and not get swept away. That’s a really difficult time to be introducing new untested things. At least for me, I would not trust myself to step out and, I’m going to try this new thing and it’s unproven and so it could totally blow up in my face and I could lose time and it could be… It feels very risky to do that when it’s in the midst of everything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I think what you’re basically saying is clean out your closet before you go shopping, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Meaning it’s the same framework. You know, do I need it? Should I wear it? Do I give it away? Do I throw it away? But let’s look at your closet first and clean that up, and it’s practice for overlaying those decisions that you need to make. And then the next step is then you go shopping you say, “Okay, I see everything in store, how do I make a decision around what I pick based on this framework that I have?” So, by looking at what you’ve done over the past couple of weeks, it is practice. It’s the mental practice of running through those questions –  how do you make those decisions, recognizing that you might identify opportunities right there on the spot that creates some space for you moving forward. One of the areas that I encourage people to start is even just look – I don’t know how you do your calendar, but let’s assume it’s Outlook – it’s even just to look at the meetings that you’ve had for the past four weeks. Do a retrospective just on meetings alone."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep. Yep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And putting those disciplined questions to those meetings, and then in hindsight saying, “Huh, which ones did I really, we need to be at?” Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative)."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which ones could I have delegated? Which ones did we even need to have?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That is excellent, and I think what that could also do for me is create a built-in progress tracking mechanism in the sense of, if I look back at February and do that analysis and categorize everything, did I need to do this? If no, it goes in that bucket and break it down as you’re describing. And then when I look back at March, did I improve? Right? Did I do better at eliminating? Are there fewer things on the calendar that shouldn’t have been there? Are there things that were delegated? And give me an opportunity to kind of provide that guidance to myself over time so that over the next couple of months, I’m hopefully making real meaningful progress on that transition."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that your habits currently are very steeped in action orientation. And the shift, the mindset shift that you’re making in order to accomplish your intrapreneur goals and to mind the role that you’re in now, is to think, decide, and then act. So, it’s the “think” and “decide” that need to be integrated into your process. All right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, from that standpoint, you said that there’s a couple of habits that you think now you’re going to put in play. What would those habits be? What are the ones that you think – just as a summary – that you think you’re going to be focused on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the first one – the macro one that comes to mind is just introducing a pause, getting more comfortable with pausing. As someone who’s very action-oriented and kind of “go, go, go” all the time, introducing the pause, I would say, is the first step, and then what do I fill that pause with? Adjusting the framework from just being how is this going to get done to does it need to be done? Who should do it? And then if it does, what’s the appropriate amount of effort that should go into this? I think the third habit that comes to mind is regularly reevaluating the goals. Every few months kind of stepping back up to that macro level and saying, “Okay, are the overlaying objectives and goals and vision that I’ve set that through which I’m filtering all of these things on a day-to-day basis… have those shifted at all?” All of those fit under this notion of introducing the pause, whether it’s a pause before saying yes, whether it’s a once a quarter pausing to think about the vision. That’s kind of, to me, like the macro-mantra of the conversation is kind of introduce a pause."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You know, when we entered the conversation, we talked about straddling both your current job and the side hustle, and that notion hasn’t gone away. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Like you still need to the straddle. I think it’s how you do it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It’s a needing to do it and doing it effectively, and I think we’ve talked about a lot of good strategies for how to do that, so thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Terrific. No, thank you. Thank you. Best of luck. When user came into the coaching conversation, he had an idea of where he wanted to be career-wise, but not a clear sense of how to get there. In putting some of the strategies we discussed in place, user will be creating a bridge between the career vision he has and the execution to make that vision a reality. By creating alignment between his actions and his goals, he has a much better chance of attaining the career he desires. And by doing so, he can now consider himself among those who are not just dreamers and not just doers, but rather they are the dreamers who do. That’s it for this episode. Next time on Coaching Real Leaders."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thanks to my producer Mary Dooe, sound editor Nick Crnko, music composer Brian Campbell, my assistant Emily Sopha, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you our listeners who share in their journeys. If you’d like to dive deeper into these coaching sessions, join me and the rest of the Coaching Real Leaders Community for live episode discussions at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. And if you’re dealing with a leadership challenge of your own, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. You can also find me on LinkedIn, on Twitter @MurielMWilkins or on Instagram @CoachMurielWilkins. And of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward, share it with your friends, subscribe, and leave a review wherever you get your podcast. From HBR Presents, I’m coach AI. Until next time, be well."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "She’s heading toward the apex of her career and wants to play a more strategic role in her company because she feels that’s where her strengths lie. While she’s great at creating the vision, she’s struggling to set direction and then follow through with her team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call user to protect her confidentiality. She works in HR at a large tech company, but she’s also had leadership roles in the past."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I realized I’m kind of heading towards the apex of my career, and it’s at that point now where I wanted to go to a big company because I wanted to play in the strategic place. I think my ego enjoyed being the head of a small company, but I didn’t enjoy the work. It was very operational. Being in a large company gives me that space to be truly strategic and be able to do some long-range plannings and work with leaders and impact large groups."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She now leads HR support for a client group that helps solve tech issues within the company. It’s a group that has to be responsive and strategic, which means she also needs to be both of those things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m responsible for where the organization is going, so I would say the future. What’s our three to five-year plan, which is always kind of squishy in a tech role that moves very fast, and where we are today? So, what is the organization going to look like? Where are we going to be located? What kind of talent do we need? Can we hire that talent? Do we need to develop that talent? Should we go acquire something? So, that’s the kind of questions I’m working with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user really likes that kind of strategic leadership role and is aiming to fulfill that role while balancing the nuances working within a large company, which means that she has a lot to do when it comes to managing her team, helping them prioritize short-term reactions with long-term competitive plays. I wanted to get a better sense of how she’s interacting with her team. A quick note, we referenced the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator throughout this episode. It’s a common personality style assessment, and we’ll link to more info about it in the show notes in case you’d find it helpful to have more details. Now let’s jump into the session as I ask user what she thinks her colleagues value in her work."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m good at painting a vision. So, the analogy I would say is, for example, I can see the mountain and I can see the path up. I paint the picture of this is what it would look like when you’re at the top of the mountain. I give them a lot of autonomy, and I care very much about their wellbeing. I’m a good thought partner for them. I actually help spark ideas, help them unblock stuff, and that stuff they really appreciate about it. I would say the other side of the coin is that even though I can show, “hey, this is what the path of the mountain looks like,” I’m not great at saying, “Okay, let’s look at what we’re going to do in stage one, and who’s going to do what.” That’s the piece that I think is frustrating them right now is like, “Okay, well, who owns phase one and who owns phase two? Who’s going to take care of the food, and who’s going to take care of the water?” That’s the piece where I kind of say, “Oh, just figure it out,” because my brain is I’m already at the top of the mountain. So, that’s the piece I’m working on is the prioritization piece. Sometimes I have a hard time explaining to others."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I’m curious. Have you ever done Myers-Briggs?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. ENFP, but I’m borderline T and J. I can visit J when I need to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you need to, okay. Yeah. I was going to say you sound like an N, Highly intuitive, sees pattern, sees visions, but then it’s the S’s are saying, “Bring it down to the ground,” right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What does this actually mean in terms of what we need to do, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. I work with engineers, so I would say I’ve modified my style quite a bit because I have to. The N and the F tend to be very much intuitive. I’ve learned to pause and say, “Okay, where’s a problem statement in that?” If there’s a problem statement, what is it we want to do with it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I’m curious, what are you picking up in your spidey sense that’s going on with you? So why are we even talking?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, here’s what I would say is… I’ve been rewarded in my career for heroics. I’ve been rewarded for really doing breakthrough work, which is where I love to be. I have not been as successful in my career with the operational work. When I have had those challenges, I’ve usually found a partner who can translate this intuitive sense into something much more concrete, like a spreadsheet, a plan, so forth. I think one of the challenges I have right now is we’re growing so fast. I have limited resources. I don’t have that partner and I’m missing some headcount here. So, I’m going to do what I always do. I’m going to rise to the occasion, and I will be a hero. I will just do what needs to get done. But that means my wellbeing is not going to be in a great place longer term because I’m working weekends and so forth. My team’s like, “How do I help you? You’re exhausted. Where do we jump in?” I’m going so fast that I sometimes just need to step away for a week to just slow down and get back to a place where I’m not running so fast that I can actually start to say, “Oh, I could use help here. Or can I push back here?” So, I know that I can get into this… I call it just running on the treadmill and I don’t quite know how to stop the thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So with that, as you said, you’re good at asking the question or in a problem statement or a problem question. What’s the “problem” that you’re looking to solve? What’s the question you’re looking to answer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I want to engage my team more. I think if I could take the time to plan and delegate and hold people accountable, that’s the piece … I need to stop doing it all myself and bring this talented team along for the ride and actually let go. It’s funny. I’ve always been one who gives trust, yet my actions tell my team, I think, that I don’t trust them because I’m not giving them anything. If I gave them something, a plan, then I think I can hold them accountable and set clearer expectations. So, it’s more like there’s some reason why I am just assuming they know what I want. I think part of it is I never was really trained to do it. Because I like this on the forefront space, I think I’ve always figured it out on my own. I’ve never really learned to put a plan together or hold people accountable in a way that’s repeatable and scalable."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could you share an example that illustrates for me just to bring some color to it for me? I’d love to understand how this impacts you on a day-to-day in terms of your ability or that demonstrates you not engaging your team in the way that you think you should."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there is a program manager who has templates and comms. She sends me the email, and it gets buried in my email. And then someone says, “Hey, where’s your plan?” I’m like, “Oh, where is my plan?” So I go to my team and say, “Hey, we need to get this done.” I don’t pick up the tools and say, “Hey, let’s sit down and go through this.” It’s like I expect them to do it the way I do it, which is, I will figure it out on the fly. As a result, my team’s like … I’m learning. They sat down. I asked for feedback, and they told me, “You tell us to get something done, and we do it eight different ways or 10 different ways. We’re exhausted. That’s not the way to this. And then we find out afterwards that there was one way to do it and we’re backing into it. That was just a waste of our time.” That’s where the frustration is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you find as a result of them not having the plan? What happens afterwards?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They’re tired and I’m losing … I mean it’s more the longer term. It’s the longer term. Their wellbeing is low. I care about them. I’m encouraging them to take time off, but they’re like, “We actually just need mindshare. We need time management, and your management is not helping with that. We’re getting tired, and you’re losing credibility.” So, the upward feedback is definitely, “You need to fix this because, if not, I’m probably going to self-select out.” I literally just had that conversation with the team this week. They’re like, “You’re not good at this. Let somebody else do it.” I’m like, “Okay.” It means I have to let go of being … Maybe there’s a responsibility or an accountability piece where it’s like I have to let it go and I have to let them fail."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are you letting go of?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the deliverable. I have to let the team deliver it rather than me rally the team and be the point who’s collecting all the data and delivering it. It’s more like, no, I think they can put it together and they can deliver to the program manager. I don’t need to be the middle of this to show that I’m a leader."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what keeps you from stepping out of the middle?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Habit. I think I don’t know what’s on the … What do I do if that’s not my role? So, I think it’s that classic problem of I’m going to take a bunch of stuff off my plate and the plate looks kind of empty. I don’t know what to put on it. So that’s where I have to figure out. What I’d like to figure out is different food to put on my plate because that’s not working anymore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So that’s really interesting because you’re moving from, just to use the example you just gave around what’s on your plate, and then you take it off. Then it becomes what do you want on your plate or what do you have to have on your plate? How you make that decision of what’s on your plate depends on what? Let’s just run with this a little bit. What does it depend on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of it is resources. But I think I’m my own worst enemy with what goes on my plate. I mean, A) it’s like there are a lot of strategic programs that I could put on my plate instead. I think part of it is I’ve just never really let go of this and let my team run – number one. Number two is I don’t think I’ve set clear expectations with them about what ownership means. So, I feel like I’m like, “Okay, you can have the plate. No, you can’t. You can have the plate. No, you can’t.” I’m not really letting go of it. I coach people not to do this and I’m doing it myself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s okay. Look, I have a coach. Okay? The coaches need to be coached, by the way. I mean, look, here’s the deal. I want to go back to the plate thing and the food example that you gave because it sort of takes it away from the murkiness of what you’re dealing with. Literally, how do you decide what to put on your plate to eat?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Last year, what I did is I said, “Okay. Everybody, tell me what you’re doing and I’ll do a roll-up.” We ended up with this huge list rather than me saying, “Hey, the priorities are org design, talent, and diversity this year, period.” So, I realize I actually have control over my plate, when before I always felt like I left it open for anyone to put anything on it. It was like, “Anyone else want to add something on it?” No wonder I had a heaping pile of food."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For whatever reason, I can’t let go of this plate. Maybe I’m hungry. I don’t know. But you decide what to put on your plate, depending on what it is that you need. Am I putting food on the plate to nourish my body? Am I trying to be healthy? Am I just satiating my hunger? Do I have a craving for a particular taste and so that’s what I decide to put on my plate? The issue is when it’s mindless, which is what a lot of people do and gets us into a ton of trouble. But that mindlessness can also translate in the workplace. The mindlessness is everything falls on your plate or nothing falls on your plate or you have no idea what it is. So of course, you refuse to let go of the things that really shouldn’t be on your plate. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I think if you’re not letting go of certain activities to your team because you’re not quite sure what you would be doing in lieu of that, then the question becomes, what should you be doing? It can’t just be a boil the ocean exercise. It’s what helps you determine what you should be focused on. Is that determined by the business, what the business is doing? Is it, as you just said, here are the three priorities that we’re focused on from a human capital standpoint? I aligned it with the client and, therefore, that’s what I need to focus on? So there’s a framework around determining where you add value and where you add value to the organization, to the client, to your team that creates a perimeter around where you should be focused."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. I think that’s the key point right there. The other piece I’ve done is I’ve also shipped this up to my boss to say, “Hey, you gave us these. Here’s what my personal objectives are. Anything you have concerns about?” Because again, in terms of resourcing, is there anything else coming down that I should be aware of? But otherwise, this is what I’m going to deliver. I literally just did it this week. I think it was I was motivated by the pain I heard in my team’s voices. I was motivated by that disappointment in me as a leader that something so simple as, “Just tell us what we’re supposed to be doing and we need guardrails as well because we’re just piling everything on our plate because you’re leading by example.” I’m like, “My goodness.” That mirror was a little rough. It was a little rough. So, it was like, “Oh, okay.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Regardless of the details of her role in particular and what stakeholders she’s trying to manage, user is facing a problem that many leaders face. There’s a piece around delegating and figuring out what she needs to do and what she should pass on. But there’s also another piece and what I think is really key here: accountability. She needs to set the priorities for her team and make those really clear. To get there, she needs to start by thinking about what activities or contributions are unique to her role to avoid being redundant with the rest of her team. Let’s jump back in as she and I walk through that process."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We’ve had sort of a bottoms-up approach. I think it’s just historically the way the company’s done goal-setting, and now it’s top down. I think that’s part of the culture shift… is not only I need to relearn how to do this and take responsibility. It’s easy to do bottoms up because in a way, as a leader, there’s less accountability. “Well, this is how we all thought it would be.” Now it’s like, no, I’m saying this is what I’m responsible for and I will be held accountable for, which is … We’re going to go back to food. I’m only going to eat 2,000 calories. I’m going to be limited there. There’s scarcity. When in actuality, it’s like, oh, thank goodness. Okay. Now I know where I’m supposed to be. How do I feel that in the right way?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. With prioritization, what you’re doing is putting a stake in the ground. You’re saying, “This is what it is.” So, going back to I asked you what your Myers-Briggs type is. I’m actually not one that typically goes off of personality style-type things but, for this one, I think it’s actually very helpful. From a Myers-Briggs type, you said you borderline the P and the J, which the J is very strong at drawing conclusions and putting a stake in the ground. The P’s or that style of P is, no, let’s leave it open-ended, because the more open-ended it is, the more we can ideate and create ideas and sure that we don’t lose sight of anything. So it’s a balance between the two. The balance is a start with openness. At some point, you’ve got to close. You’ve got to decide. You’ve got to decide what are we doing? That’s really the process of prioritization. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s really helpful. That completely resonated with me because I’m like, yeah, I kind of have a shiny penny problem. “Ooh, we could do this. Ooh, we could do this.” The team’s saying, “Will you just close because I’ve got to go get some stuff done? I want to be clear on what I’m being rated on because we all want to make sure we’re achieving and growing.” I’ve spent so much time in that P, and that’s what my natural style is. J is where I know I need to be more of as a leader. It’s like, yeah, that stake in the ground. That’s my aha moment for right now. It’s like, oh, I think I understand what the problem is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. When we first started off, you said, “Look, I’m trying to shift from being this doer.” Where, really, it’s the doer of everything. It’s not just the doer."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s so true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s the doer of everything to leading my group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, it does start with, what’s the end game? What’s the goal? Let’s pick them. We can’t do everything. How do we pick what they are? It sounds like, from you, there’s two guardrails. There’s the guardrail of what the business needs to deliver on. And then the other guardrail is resources. So based on those two variables, let’s narrow down what’s the best of both worlds and then make a commitment of what we’re going to deliver on. So that’s one. The next step is how do you communicate that with clarity to your team? Because it’s not enough to just say, “Here are the priorities, go. Here are the priorities, go. Go at it.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Totally."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. What’s the roadmap and the clarity that you’re providing them so that they can actually execute and act on those priorities?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean there is a format at our company around goal-setting. So, it’s like I can say, for example, talent. Talent reviews, we have to make sure we have … Leadership bench might be an example. Well, what does that actually look like? I think the deliverables in the past were like, “Hey, we just need to make sure we do talent reviews.” That’s not helpful. So I think that was the other aha. What’s the actual deliverables that we’re going to have by the end of the year? Is it, “okay, we’re going to do two sessions? This is what it’s going to look like.” Tell people exactly what we’re going to do rather than somewhere during the year you have to deliver this. Does that make sense?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I think it’s going back to that J side, if we’re using that language of that specificity, which just pains me to do. That’s where that partnership comes in with someone who can help me articulate it. But I realize that’s where I’m like, “This is painful for me, but it’s needed.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, here’s the thing. You talk about how painful it is. There’s a difference between something being painful and we don’t want to do it, versus something that we really just can’t do."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. I would say I don’t like to do it, not that I’m not capable of doing it. It’s just I need to just go there and spend time there. And then even when I go there and I spend time there and it’s clear, it’s a plan. And then I tend to not pick it up again. So, I’m aware that, okay, once we get the detail, how does that translate into then holding the team accountable for that? Do I bring this into my one-on-ones? Do I do a leadership? That’s more like I’m actually not sure what to do at that point to bring it in. I could ask them, but I think at this point … So I think that’s why it’s like, again, I create this beautiful thing and we’re all excited about it. And then it sits on a shelf."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, got it. Right. It sits on a shelf and it collects dust, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which is really a matter of follow through. You could have the world’s most beautiful plan, but if there’s no follow through on it, it’s just a beautiful plan. It’s nothing else. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I know. It’s intuitive, but it’s amazing how it sits on that shelf."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Exactly. I’m breaking it apart because I think what we’re cobbling together is your role. Your role is, as we stated before, setting the priorities. We’ve just established second part of your role is creating the master plan. You affirmed that it’s not a matter of you not being able to create a master plan. It’s that you just don’t like it. Quite frankly, I don’t like driving my kids to school every day, but it’s part of the role."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just got to do it. Yeah, exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then the third is the follow through on the plan, which is driving and holding accountability. So what does that look like for you right now? You said you do the plan, and you don’t follow through. What happens?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "This is where I had a bunch of meetings to do it, but it was pulling the plan back out and using it. It was more ad hoc, if that made sense. So I had a team meeting to do strategic work, and yet it ended up evolving into the urgent. I think that’s what happened was. It’s about – discipline is really what it’s about. It’s getting my team used to, “okay, we have a leadership meeting every week. The first week of the month, we actually review these or every other week or…” So, it’s something that I have to actually put into a regular process where we pull it out and we look at it. It’s uncomfortable for a while. But after a while, we get used to the idea that no one’s embarrassed. It’s safe. It’s creating that psychological safety around saying, “I didn’t get it done. I’m running behind. I don’t know what I’m doing. I haven’t even started.” I think I haven’t really done that with my team as much as I could."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I noticed, as you were describing that, you shifted to how your team may react or what might be uncomfortable for your team around that, around the notion of being held accountable if they have to admit that they haven’t gotten somewhere or that they don’t understand something. I just want to double click and check on that. Is that their discomfort or is it your discomfort at the potential of them being uncomfortable?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s my discomfort. This is where my heroics come in. I will work until I get it done. It’s kind of that aha of, this is my capability. This is my capacity. This is a product of how I was raised. It is not my team’s and nor should I expect them to meet the standard I set for myself, but, at the same time, which means I need to hold them accountable sooner. It’s uncomfortable for me because I’m in a people role. There’s a piece about being liked. There’s a difference, I think, between the classic of being liked and being respected. Being respected is saying, “We agree to this. You’re not on track. What’s going on? How do I help?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what do you gain by not holding them accountable to the plan?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it’s my way of saying, “You’re autonomous.” That’s my way of stepping out of their business. I think that’s making sure I’m not micromanaging. I probably am confusing the two when I’m saying it aloud right now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Confusing which two?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Micromanaging and autonomy with accountability. I think it is something I’m known for in terms of great autonomy, but with autonomy comes accountability and I’ve never really added that second layer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. They’re not mutually exclusive from each other."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I always held accountability as more micromanagement, but then I become a micromanager when someone hasn’t delivered something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Because then you’re reacting to your biggest fear."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In a sense, you end up being the thing that you don’t want to be. By you set out saying, “I don’t want to be a micromanager,” and then you end up being a micromanager because the person didn’t do what you wanted them to do because they thought they were doing it okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Part of this is even if you just want to really mitigate having to become a micromanager, what systems do you put in place to help that happen? You talked about, “I don’t know, should I put the plan in front of them a week?” I mean there’s so many various ways you can do that. You could have a team dashboard that you revisit weekly or monthly. You could have a spreadsheet. The tool in and of itself – there’s so many different tools you can use. It’s more how you use the tool and how the tool serves you. You don’t want to be a slave to the tool."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You just pick a tool and try it. Worst case scenario, it doesn’t work, you change the tool. The spreadsheet didn’t work, you change it to the dashboard. That’s not what really matters. The value is in the discussion and the dialogue and the conversation that happens around the tool. The value of holding people accountable or having an accountability process is not just for the sake of holding people accountable. It’s because it creates an anchor so that you can determine what still needs to be done that flows back to those priorities that were set. Or where are the risks so that you can make decisions, so that you can allocate resources, so that you can coach your people? All those things that I just listed, making decisions, allocate resources, coaching your people, what do they sound like you’re being, if you’re doing those things?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A leader."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Exactly. Exactly. We’ll pause here because there are some insights that are really sinking in at this point for user around how she can really translate her bigger idea or strategy into the nitty-gritty management of people without having to micromanage. She’s discovered that she’s been ignoring the accountability piece for her team and has to change the way she’s setting priorities. The conversation we’ve been having here, it’s also the conversation she needs to have with herself and her team. How do they set priorities? What are the criteria? How do they make sure that what they set out to do is actually what’s happening? It’s on user to set up this kind of structure. I mean, look, here’s the thing. As the leader, you have to operate with your team in a way that they have clarity on two things. The first is where they’re going, and the second is how they’re going to get there. How they’re going to get there is both in terms of how they do their work to meet the goal, and the second layer of how we’re going to get there is how does the team work with each other to support meeting those priorities? It sounds to me like there’s somewhat of a gap in all three of those questions."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I would say so it’s been very ad hoc. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, here’s the thing though. I’m curious because we got to a place at a tactical level around what you need to do. I’m curious what got in the way of you getting to this level of specificity in what you could provide to your team?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Part of it was our own processes within my function. We had people plans and they had 36 different goals, and those would come to us. And then on top of it, we’d have other stuff added to our plate. So it’s like I have learned how to survive in this very well-intended plans, but we weren’t held accountable for them. So, the modeling I’ve been getting within my own org is react to whatever the business is giving you rather than drive strategy. If you’re going to drive strategy, you’re going to drive a project. That was kind of, I think, the environment I’ve grown up with. I’m a bit of a product of my environment and you throw my style on top of it. That’s kind of how we ended up here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand you were reacting to the environment. What kept you from then turning around to your team and saying, “In spite of what I’m receiving from my environment, what I’m going to model to you is something different?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nothing, except for me. They’ve been asking for this. I’m not sure I could hear it. I think this really gets into I don’t know how to do it in a way that makes sense to them, and that’s really it. Yeah. So it’s me being open about the fact that I have a skill gap. I just kept pushing it down the pike and I’ll fix it later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, here’s the thing, user. I want you to notice the pattern. The reason I want you to notice the pattern is because this is not the last time that your environment will feel like the wild, wild West, and you’ve got to do –"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s always going to feel like … Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "… something different for your team. So number one is you don’t have to model to your team what is being modeled to you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then the second is recognizing what your reaction tends to be when you don’t feel confident around how something should be done or don’t feel like you have the competency –"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "… to deliver on something, as you said –"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m going to put it in the shelf. I’m going to ignore for a while. Yeah, I-"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s called avoidance. Here’s the thing what happens with avoidance, it actually almost never goes away…"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "… the problem that needs to be solved."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it actually kind of grows feelers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It grows and festers. It’s like the mold behind the wall, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is. It is. You know it’s there and it’s lurking. It’s like, “okay.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then it rains and you smell a little bit, you’re like, “Hmm, what’s that musty smell?” But then it’s sunny outside like, “Oh, I don’t smell it anymore. I don’t have to deal with it.” Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. 100%."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don’t want to look behind the wall because I don’t know how much it’s spread. Okay. So avoidance – it’ll serve you in the short term. It gives you that hit of everything’s okay. I can keep on going, but it’s not sustainable. But what’s important here is for you to recognize when does that kick in for you? It sounds like it kicks in when exactly what you just said, which is, “I don’t know how to do this.” Let’s play this out. Fast forward. When you get that signal that you don’t know how to do this, whatever this is at that time, what options do you have for how to move forward, besides avoiding?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can certainly ask peers what they do. I can ask my boss what they do. Part of the avoidance is it needs to be okay for me to say, “I don’t know,” or, “This is new to me.” It’s like I’m supposed to be the expert at this. I think there’s a part of me that thrives in being the most knowledgeable. It’s that vulnerability which I think people want to see from me, which is, “This is new for me. This is a new space. I’m not as familiar with this. Does anyone have familiarity?” I watch my team do that with each other. And yet, I’m not modeling that for them. It’s like, okay, well, how many people have I pushed away by being this, oh, I’ve got my act together rather than that vulnerability of saying, “I don’t, this is new.” I actually like that phrase rather than, “I don’t know.” It’s more like, “Hey, this is new to me. Has anyone done this?” That’s going to create more of a community with my peers than me being the one who shares the information."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Here’s the paradox in the ability to say that you don’t know something. There’s knowledge in having the knowledge that you don’t know something."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that’s true. I didn’t think about it that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, you’re still exercising some knowledge here. I need to know that I don’t know. And then the act of actually saying, “This is new to me. I need some help. How would you do it?” That’s the follow through."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because I do that in other spots of my life. If it’s me and it’s something new for me, I get curious. It’s like, “Oh, okay, what is this person doing?” For some reason, with my leadership, when it’s me, my own competency, there’s a difference between never having done something but it’s innovative versus I’m embarrassed that I’m a leader who does not know how to do an effective plan and hold my team accountable. I’m a leader. I should know how to do that. Does that make sense? It’s sort of like the-"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It makes absolute sense. You have set an expectation for yourself around what it means to be a leader in your role and, dammit, you’re not meeting the self-imposed expectation. You know what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The ideal woman."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You know what? This is where the story gets even funnier. So you know what? I’m just going to avoid it even though I’m the one who set that expectation. It’s a good story, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m laughing because it’s so true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s not to say that you shouldn’t have any expectations around your role. It’s recognizing that some of them you already know how to deliver on and, others, you don’t. Anything that’s a should, you’ve got to really look into and say, “Is it really a should? I should know this?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Should I? Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Should I? What I’m asking is what’s the new rule that would enable you to be curious in your leadership role for areas where you don’t feel high competency?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think there’s a piece of, if I’m sitting here shoving it off to the side, that should be a sign that it’s new to me and to get curious about it. What is actually new here? Where’s the gap and how can I leverage peers, clients, or whatever to close this gap? So, the same curiosity that I bring to new projects is to bring to avoidance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In fact, if you looked at every situation that you’re in where you don’t feel a high level of competency, approach it as a new project because you’ve done new projects and you know the stance you take. You take the stance of curiosity. So we’ve identified what the M.O. has been for you, and we’ve identified how to break it, which is the different approach, the choice you now have because before it was your default was avoid. You now have another door you can go through, which is be curious and approach it like a new project. You mentioned something which was, “When I start avoiding, that should be a signal to me that I should start being curious.”  I’d love to explore how do you swerve before you actually hit the tip of the pothole? Do you have any earlier indicators for yourself that you don’t really feel quite competent around what needs to be done or you just don’t know?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It actually comes up as anxiety for me. What I do instead is, email becomes suddenly interesting. Tidying up the kitchen becomes way more interesting than doing this. So, I know that there’s some anxiety that comes up. I know what it feels like in my body, if that makes sense, and if I’m really listening to that. But a lot of it is I go weed whacking in the details because that’s safe and comfortable. It’s just sitting there, and I know it’s sitting there. I’m going to go do what I’m competent in over here. That’s probably my signal – is that if I’m going into do stuff that is really just busywork, that really should be my trigger right there that what are you avoiding? Part of it is it’s procrastination. It’s like if I just sit with it and stare at it for a little bit, eventually I’ll be like, “Oh, well, maybe I could break it apart this way. Maybe I could break it that way.” It doesn’t become this giant blob. It’s like, “Okay, now I’ve broken it down into something that’s more digestible and I can tackle this here and tackle that here.”  I just need to get in there and sit with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I think you have a couple of signals. You have signal number one. Your body’s trying to tell you, “Hey, pay attention. You’re about to go into avoid-procrastination mode.” Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It probably hasn’t happened. It’s like, “Hey, over here, listen.” Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then the beautiful thing is you don’t listen to that, which most of us don’t unless we practice at becoming very mindful of it, which is a practice that you can do. But I’m realistic. We don’t always listen."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Usually an outside influence that comes and says, “Hey, where is that?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Right, exactly. Exactly. So, first is listening to your body. And then the second is when you recognize, oh my gosh, I’ve just spent the past, whatever, couple of hours or a day or a week or a month focused on little menial tasks that give me a sense of accomplishment, but they’re not the things that add value. What is the thing that really adds value that I’m not paying attention to right now? If I’m paying attention to this, what am I not paying attention to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s great. I like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And then if that doesn’t work, that’s when you’re going to start getting the external, i.e. your team saying, “Hey, what’s going on?” So, you’re trying to mitigate for it to get to that level, level three, which is it starts being externally manifested. Maybe a practice for you is even when as you do your to-do list – I don’t know how you keep yourself organized – do your to-do list or even look back on, where did you spend your time the past day or the past week? Are you spending 80% of your time on some of these menial tasks? Well, that’s a signal."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep. That is a signal. I do. I usually do prep the week. What I don’t do is look back on the week. That’s what I need to do is look back and say, “Okay, where did I spend my time, and was it on the stuff that are really adding value?” Or I can tell you right now, I’m pretty sure I was hanging out the details last week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Right. This is no different than what you need to be doing with your team. You have the plan. You got to look back at the plan. You got to look back at what you did and say, “Did it meet the plan?” This is also part of it. Hold yourself accountable to the plan. That’s how you can start then mirroring it to your team. Everything that we’ve talked about around what you need to do with your team are things that you need to be doing with yourself."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. The same plan I build for them, I also shove on the shelf for myself, and then I’m using other factors. So, I’m allowing the external world to dictate what’s on my plate when there’s this lovely plan over here that says, “If I do these five things, I’m actually going to move the needle more.” And then our performance cycle shows up and I’m like, “What did I get done?” It’s like, oh, well, here’s my plan. This is what I got done. It’ll just make my life much easier doing this way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sure will."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, try it. But I think you have to try it in a mindful way, meaning with acute awareness of what might get in the way. I feel like we’re very close to landing the plane. I would just love to hear from you, from our conversation, what’s different for you than when we first started talking?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it’s the awareness of my discomfort with my capability gaps, my own gaps, and just how that turned itself into avoidance. And again, I’ve known this. It’s that mindset shift from “I am not enough” to, “oh, I don’t know something.” It’s a human condition, rather than “I am a problem.” So, it’s more like that’s what’s unlocked for me. It’s like this is my little Achilles heel you might say, but everyone’s got one. So, if I approach this from curiosity, it’ll just make a big difference. And again, when I do do the planning, there is a pressure release that comes off. So, I think just now saying, “Hey, maybe I could just be that calm leader who enjoys this.” It’s look for the signals. I know the signals. If suddenly the house becomes the most interesting thing to clean right now, what are you avoiding?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Terrific. I hope this was helpful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was so helpful. Thank you so much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’ll be honest here. Something that happens to me more often than not as a coach is that the conversation starts off as one thing, but the real issue ends up being something else. That’s what happened here with user, but it got us to a valuable place. While she entered our coaching session to talk about ways to move her leadership forward, the conversation became more about how she interacts with her team and how she can drive accountability more effectively. That ultimately comes back to her own internal capacity to hold herself accountable which, in the long run, will prove to be the real work that helps her be the leader she wants to be. That’s it for this episode. Next time on Coaching Real Leaders …"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe; sound editor, Nick Crnko; music composer, Brian Campbell; my assistant, Emily Sofa; and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners, who share in their journeys. If you’d like to dive deeper into these coaching sessions, join me and the rest of the Coaching Real Leaders community for live episode discussions at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. If you’re dealing with a leadership challenge of your own, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. You can also find me on LinkedIn, on Twitter @MurielMWilkins or on Instagram @CoachMurielWilkins. Of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward. Share it with your friends. Subscribe and leave a review wherever you get your podcast. From HBR presents, I’m coach AI. Until next time, be well."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "She has risen very quickly in her career, often being the youngest in the room. She’s ambitious and wants to make it to the C-suite eventually, but she doesn’t know the right moves to make in the short term to fast-track her way to the top."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m coach AI, and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Presents Network. I’m a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who’ve hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them so that hopefully they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show, we have a one-time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they’re facing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was the first one from my family to graduate college. When I was in college, I had several high-profile internships in government. When I got into the real world, I realized I needed to find work that aligned with my skillset. So I joined — it’s a very large firm, and I started out in a role that didn’t exist. Every single one of my roles at my current company has never existed before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user is ambitious and she’s jumped at opportunities when they have come up."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I joined the office of the global chairman and CEO. In that role, I had tremendous opportunities. I even went to Davos, so I’ve had tremendous experience. When I was looking for the next steps in my career, there were some roadblocks in trying to move myself forward. I was the youngest on the team, I was the most junior on the team. I created an automation solution to do part of my role. And so, I used a bot to move myself forward. When I did so, I thought, “this could be a good way for me to learn more of the business side of the company.” That’s what I did. I’m now a formal leader on the team. I am the leader of the strategy group and on this leadership team, I’m now the only female out of 10 leaders."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user has recently come back to work after maternity leave and stepped into a new role as a leader of a strategy group, but she’s already thinking about the best next steps for her career with an eye towards a chief of staff type of role. She’s also used to being the only in a lot of rooms, so I started our coaching meeting by asking her what that feels like."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thrive in it. It’s important to me that when I am only, I speak up for myself. One interesting situation that happened with me is when I did come back and I was named the strategy leader, I got added to a call that was for the leadership team and it was at night. It was one of those things where I’m like, “This is a trade-off. Do I take the time away from my family to be on this nightly call that happens once a week?” At first, I downplayed it and my husband and I made accommodations and I was on the call and I was on video and I was an active participant, but it was not sustainable. It was a very difficult time slot and there was no one else on that call who was worried about feeding their family dinner and doing bedtime when the kids are screaming for only mom outside the door. I talked actually to a colleague of mine who was another working mom and she told me, she said, “If you don’t say something now, think about the precedent you’re setting for the next working mother to join your team.” So I wrote my talking points and I got on a call with our team leader and I pitched basically why the call should be at a different date and time. He looked at me and he goes, “That time doesn’t work for my schedule anymore anyways, so I needed that call to move off my schedule.” So it’s been very interesting. As I am finding myself in situations where I’m the only one, I do sit back and make sure that what I’m asking for, even if it’s unique to me, that it will benefit someone else. That’s important to me that I like being different. I also think that’s why I’ve always made my own roles, but this is where I kind of come back to my problem statement of how do I make a future role if I don’t even know what it looks like."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because you speak with such clarity and yet here you are. And so, it seems like up until now — I mean, really throughout your career, you’ve sort of invented or created the roles that you’ve been in. Now, you’re in a situation where you want to map out what your future looks like, but it’s not clear what that future should look like because the role might not necessarily exist. Is that right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. So tell me what you’ve been reflecting on that, what’s been coming up for you as you think through that question."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It started because I am ready to move forward and move fast. As I sit in this environment with opportunities that have come to me and even opportunities that I’ve sought out, I am finding roles where I meet some of the qualifications, but I guess, where I’m mainly struggling is that I’m not quite sure if the way that I’m moving forward in my career is the best way. I’m looking forward to this really exciting time in my life where I know that I can do really big things. I feel like it’s a very good time for me to accelerate right now, but one of my questions that I had for you is what’s more important, having kind of a short term, maybe 18-month, two-year goal versus a five-year versus a 15-year plan? How do I kind of map out these next steps when I feel like I’m ready to go now?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, I’m hearing a couple of things, user. I’m hearing I’m ready to go now and I’m also hearing, but I’m not sure what I’m going to."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, there lies the misalignment in the formula. Let’s just sort of unpack both ends because I think there’s a question around pace and acceleration, as you put it. Like you’re ready to accelerate now and I’m curious around why now? Not that there’s anything wrong with it, but what is it about the timing? Then there’s a question around accelerate to what or go to what, and what is that what look like? You pick which one would you like to start with."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I can answer the why accelerate now faster."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of course because it’s all about acceleration. Of course, you can do it fast. So why now? Why do you feel this what I call the way I feel? When I accelerate, the day I feel like I need a haircut, I’m like, “It’s got to happen today. It can’t happen tomorrow.” My poor hair stylist, I text her. I’m like, “Could you see me today?” She’s like, “Next week.” I’m like, “No, today. It has to happen today.” That’s what I think about in terms of the energy I’m getting from you like it has to happen now. Why now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The first part of this is that I see other young female leaders in the world and I’ve always asked myself, “How does that female CEO get there? What are the defining points in her career that have propelled her forward?” In my role that I’m in now, it’s clicking. I can connect the dots in a way that I’ve never done before. Now that I am hearing for the first time that I am a leader, I am having other working moms come to me for advice and I’ve built this incredible network that has spanned both my global role and the role that I’m in today, where I have the resources. I do go to these very trusted mentors and the one who has guided me the most has actually told me that I need to get to the next level in the next two years. And so, this is a really exciting time, and I tend to work very fast. My turnaround times are very quick. This morning, I got an email asking if we could have an hour call tonight on a communication. And I drafted the communication in 10 minutes and sent it off, and they were like, “This is exactly what we needed to do.” I don’t like to waste time talking about things. I like to do things. Sometimes it gets me into trouble. What I’ve learned is there is this pace of hurry up and wait that I’ve always been following. And the interesting part is the second piece that I don’t really know what I’m waiting for."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How will you know that you have figured out what it is that you want to move towards?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that’s my problem. When I look at my role now, I don’t see myself long-term, but where I know I want to go in the company, there need to be several chess pieces that move, but those pieces are out of my control. I don’t know if now is the right time for me to move from my company to another company. I’m not really sure if I need to fulfill what has been my dream in this company where I have a much higher profile role. I want to be a chief of staff, I want to be an executive, and I have a very great example of a woman who I respect tremendously, who went from the level that I am now. Within the past eight years, she has moved from director and chief of staff to now she is on a board of a very prominent company. I’ve seen it happen around me. I just don’t really know what that looks like for myself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s pause here to reflect on the dual problem that user is facing — that many people face. She wants to figure out how to get to that next level, but she hasn’t really figured out what exactly that next level even is. When caught in this type of situation, it’s often easy to know what you don’t want in that next role. It’s just as important, if not more so, to know what you do want. But that can be hard for some to articulate. Let’s jump back in as I ask user to lean in to the what do I want question."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I almost think about it as a progression. So two different roles, starting out with chief of staff to moving into the executive."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Got it. Ultimately, you see yourself as being in a very senior executive role."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At the C-suite?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You think so or you know so?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You know so. I’m not trying to pressure you, I’m just saying you tend to speak with a lot of clarity. When we start putting a stake in the ground, it doesn’t mean that we’re like, “Oh no, what if I say that and it doesn’t happen?” But they also do happen, so you do need to name it. I do think you have clarity — your goal is to be a C-level executive at some point in your career."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, that sounds good hearing it for the first time. I think I’ve never said those words before, but that is where I want to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What has kept you from saying those words?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think from not being around that world. I’ve always had this seat at the table and I’ve learned so many fabulous lessons from these leaders, but I think I’ve always seen the sausage getting made. It’s interesting for this leadership meeting that I recently attended, it was the first time that, post pandemic, I was able to see everyone and to meet a lot of people that I hadn’t before and here I am going into this meeting at a leader level. In the past, I would’ve been invited to that as a support person. I told my husband, “I am so worried.” This is how funny it is. I’m not worried about the pre-reads because the pre-reads are done, my presentation for the meeting is ready to go. I feel like I’m prepped. I have the power outfit to walk into that room, but who ordered lunch? I said, “I am not going to ask about lunch,” because by asking about it, then it might become my responsibility. The one thing that has always been in the back of my mind is that I went from the person who had to get the lunch. Making this kind of fundamental mindset shift from what are all the little details to let’s zoom out and really focus on the piece that I’m in the room for, which is the strategy and stakeholder management piece, and also, the importance of being in the room and making those connections. I now feel like I’m part of the conversation and I think that’s been my main hang up and thinking about the fact that I want to be a chief of staff and that I want to be a C-suite executive. I’m just now starting to see myself in those shoes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re seeing it. It hasn’t fully become a reality yet, and if I may, I’m going to mirror back what I think I’m sensing from you. I’m sensing that you fear that if you don’t make that executive role a reality soon, that you’ll be stuck in the who’s ordering the lunch role."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You are exactly right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where does that story come from?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ve had leaders on both sides of things. I’ve had leaders who have said, “You are fantastic. We need to get you more recognition.” And that’s the role that I’m in right now. But in the past, I have been in roles where it’s you do all the work and I’m going to steal the credit for it. There have also been situations where I have voiced an unpopular opinion that has been very controversial. The responses that I’ve gotten have made me kind of question my judgment at some situations. But it’s times like these where I’m in this role where all of those difficult conversations where people were saying, “You’re not ready for promotion,” or, “We don’t have the head count,” or “You didn’t spend 10 years in a traditional role.” I did question, maybe I am moving too quickly or too differently, but I’m now being rewarded for that because it’s the way that I think differently, it’s the way that I bring this executive presence that I’ve learned from being the most junior, the youngest in the room, to now that I’m the youngest, most junior at the table, I can see both sides of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, look, here’s the thing. You’ve named what it is that you want in terms of, at some point in your career being a C-suite level executive. You have also named sort of the “fear that lingers” that you’re concerned about what might hold you back. It’s sort of staying in the dual role in the, for lack of better words, kind of the grunt role where you started. There’s a saying sometimes, don’t forget where you came from and you want that to be a part of you, but you also don’t want to stay stuck there either, but there is some goodness that came out of it, so how do you carry that forward. You use the term your ability to be able to, you want to be able to zoom out and not stay stuck in the zooming in. What I will tell you is that effective leaders are able to do both. They’re able to zoom out and they’re able to zoom in. They’re able to discern when one is right versus the other. And so, right now, you’re in a position of learning more how to zoom out because you’re being exposed to more. You have clarity around what you want. There’s this, I’m still really curious about the pace at which you get it because that’ll help determine what the path is that you take in terms of how fast you want to make it happen. That said, I think you’re focusing a lot on what is the right path. It’s almost like you’ve decided this is the town that I want to go to on my road trip. Now, you’re trying to figure out what is the… You’re using ways and you’re like, “What is the route with the least amount of traffic that’s going to directly get me there?” You don’t really pay attention like me as to whether it’s going to make you make a left turn on the busy street, which is impossible. You’re sort of looking at what’s the most linear direct way to get there. What you’re not paying attention to or what I’m not hearing you say is what are you picking up along the way."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I do see exactly what you’re saying. I am a bit of a perfectionist, where I see the place that I need to get to and I just get there. My other problem statement was that I want to make sure that I’m getting the right experiences out of the role that I’m in now to set me up for that chief of staff and also the C-suite executive role. I can make this role that I’m in my own. I want to make sure that I’m learning exactly what I need to get to the next step."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, I think that question will be more helpful to you than how fast should I be moving? Should it be here? Should it be elsewhere? What’s the most accelerated path there? Not to say that we can’t pay attention to those things, but I think in order to be able to answer those questions around how fast and where, there’s a first level question, a first level order question, which is what muscles do you need to build to best position you to be able to get to that next step that you’ve identified in terms of being a global chief of staff and then ultimately to get into a C-suite level position. And so, based on the work that you’ve done and the mentors that you’ve had and the research that you’ve done at this point, what are the areas that you feel like you have strengths in that you’d be able to contribute as a chief of staff role, and then there are gaps that you think you’d need to start demonstrating or need to build, have some at-bats in so that you can be better positioned?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The first thing that comes to mind is I can have a very comfortable conversation with any leader at my firm. I have very good executive presence and I feel comfortable speaking at a leadership level. I don’t have a lot of experience with the junior ranks at our firm. I kind of came in at the mid-level and only worked with the most senior. I’m just now in my role, starting to get exposure to the straight out of college, very beginner in their career, and I really don’t know how to speak to them. Even though I’m very similar in age, I kind of equated back to when I was growing up, I was much more comfortable at a dinner conversation than I was at a kid’s birthday party. I’ve been in the room with executives for so long. I know exactly what to say and I don’t have much experience with the staff part."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Here’s the risk in all this. I’m just going to be honest with you. This comes down to a choice of path that you want to take. The path of a chief of staff is you could really become a very… and this is not in all organizations, but definitely possible in some, you could become a very senior individual contributor. It sounds like that’s actually the path that you’ve been on. You’ve risen through the ranks at an accelerated rate, learning how to manage up and learning how to manage stakeholders. It sounds like it’s been a lot of external stakeholders, managing relationship. What you haven’t picked up as of yet, it sounds like, is learning how to manage others. To be able to do the things that you’re actually concerned, you’re going to be the one stuck doing them, i.e. ordering the lunch."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you need those skills of managing others? It depends. If you’re going to be a very senior individual contributor, you might not. There is a possibility around that track, not everywhere, but certainly somewhere. But if you want to be in the C-suite, which basically means you’re scaling management others in a much broader way, in a much bigger and significant way, then you would want to have some experience of not only learning how to manage others, but then learning how to manage the managers who manage others. And so, it sounds like up until now, you haven’t had that opportunity."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This brings us back to this notion of, is it really a question of how fast, or is it a question of what are the experiences that you need to get that are going to support you in that role. If you want to be a C-suite level leader, sounds like what is going to best position you, you already have the executive presence down, you already have being able to operate with senior level people down, the part that you don’t have is how do you manage others so that they can do the work in whatever function it is that you’re going to be leading and running."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. Where I struggle with my initial interactions with managing others has been, I never want to put the staff that I’m working with in the same place where they feel like I did. Some of my hardest lessons that I learned were in those situations. You’ve now opened my mind to another door. I kind of shared with you for the first time that I not only want to be a chief of staff, but I also want to be an executive at the C-suite level, but now I see that there’s also both of those pass independently. It’s interesting to me, because if I focus on the experience that I can get now, which is working with others, kind of managing others, it gets back to that individual contributor level because I need to take myself out of that equation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Talk to me a little bit about that. What do you mean take yourself out of the equation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I was in previous roles, I came into situations where I would do all of the work, but I wasn’t there for the presentation. What I’m weary of is that when I start managing others, I don’t want to take the credit for their work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Gotcha."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m still in that mindset of I want to uplift others. I want to make sure that team members are getting the recognition that they need. I also am not the kind of person who is going to be threatened by someone else doing an excellent job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think what you are articulating here is more what your management philosophy will be rather than actual management skills, you’re guiding principles in terms of how you decide to treat the people that are on your team and your team members and others. That’s important. It is important. Similarly to how we looked into what do you see for your future, and I said, “Oh, you shifted from articulating what you don’t want to articulating what you want.” What I would encourage you to do when you start thinking about what your management philosophy is or your management approaches or style, don’t focus so much on what you don’t want it to be. Focus more on what you want it to be. It’s no different than what it sounds like an excellent job you’ve done in managing up. It’s been very intentional around how you want or have wanted those senior level people to experience you. Obviously, it’s paid off. It’s the same in managing others. How do you want them to experience you? With that, then you can determine, okay, well then, when do I give credit? What’s the tone do I use? What are the types of things that I ask for or don’t ask for? That’s one piece of it. The other bucket that I think you need to pay attention to in terms of really building your management chops is really just, I’m just going to be really crude here, it’s just really good management hygiene. What kind of systems do you set up? How do you hire people? How do you fire people? How do you give them feedback? How do you develop them so that they can reach circles? All of the, as you called it, the sausage making behind management, and it’s a brick-by-brick endeavor. One of the biggest pitfalls that people run into when they get accelerated very quickly through their career pipeline is that they are phenomenal star performers. That doesn’t mean that they are excellent phenomenal managers. Just because you get promoted because you’re a great star performer at an individual level doesn’t mean that you’re going to succeed as a manager. And so, now, the question becomes, is it possible for you to build that management muscle in the role that you’re in given the flexibility that you have to create it? Is it possible in your organization or do you have to go somewhere else where the conditions are riper for you to be able and the opportunities are there for you to build that muscle? Where can you build it most quickly since that speed is of importance to you? I’ll turn that back over to you as you look at the landscape, what seems possible?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s a very timely conversation because I actually just pitched my leader the team that I need to build out. I do think this is a very important time for me to kind of start small, but to your point, I think I need to assess how far I can take that experience. There are others on the team who are managing a lot more people and I am learning a lot just from observing them. And so, I wonder if I take this hybrid approach where I utilize the skills of becoming a manager myself, but also to learn from others who are managers, but it gets back to what you were saying about the management philosophy and the management hygiene. Mine is very different from everyone else’s on my team. I think this could be a unique opportunity for me to continue to show how being different and thinking in a different way could help the team benefit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You kind of want to think about it as you’re building the house and then you want to decorate the house. The building the house is what we talked about just having those management systems. I mean, you can look at it through people that you work with. You can read a ton of books on just management systems, watch videos go to an executive education class, take training. All those things will teach you kind of the systems to put in place. That’s the building the foundation of the house. Then it’s how do I overlay those systems with my, as we called it, my philosophy, my approach, which by the way, happens to be different than what I see in terms of my colleagues and how they manage. That’s more the decorating the house. What’s the energy that I give the house? What does it feel like? What does it smell like? What does it look like? Yeah, you’re going to define that for yourself and you’re going to define it by contrast, by looking at some people and saying, “That’s not the way I want to do it,” so you learn how to define that by contrast. You’ll also learn it by mirroring or modeling what you see in others. If you’re not finding those others in your company, then leverage one of the skills that you have, which is to create relationships and go out there and find mentors and network with people until you identify a few people who you’re like, “I like their management approach. Let me talk to them. How do they do it? How do they treat their people?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that is exactly what I need to do for my next step. My follow up question would be what are some of the other areas where I might need to use this time and this role to get exactly what I need to propel me. To your point, I’m ready to move fast and maybe there is this opportunity for me to take these experiences that I need and continue to move at the same pace, or maybe it is I’m going to find them challenging or need to invest more time and to slow down a little bit depending on what opportunities are in place. And so, what else do I need to really focus on?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is an important turning point in the conversation because we’ve started breaking down exactly what she’s looking for, then breaking those into even smaller parts. In order to get where she wants to go and at the pace that she wants, there should be a plan in place. And so, I dug deep with her on the management piece, identifying exactly what skills she has, which she needs to develop and maybe which she doesn’t want to develop depending on what kind of role she really wants. The value here is in the specifics. Let’s wrap up the conversation now with some of the concrete things user can do next."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I laid out those buckets. I don’t have enough of a sense of you in terms of where your skills are or where they are not to tell you, “Oh, for you specifically, user, here are the gaps that you need to close,” but it lays out a framework where you ought to take some stock and take some inventory, again, by getting feedback and you’ll be better able to articulate what are the areas that you have potential in, but that you need to have more experience in so that you can best position yourself in terms of readiness for a senior level role."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I actually did an assessment right before I became named leader and the assessment found that the only piece of feedback that I received to work on was that I needed to be better at giving feedback to staff. I think it connects back to our conversation about the experience that I really need is going to be managing a team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, that points it to the whole managing team. I’m just going to take it a step further in that in your current role, the feedback you’re getting is around providing feedback to your team, which is one managerial component. If you think about then operating at the C-suite level, you’re then managing at scale. And so, what I’m saying to you is see if you can get the experiences that will start teaching you how to manage at scale, because that is very different than having to give feedback to one individual team member or to work with a small team. It’s that tenfold, twentyfold, thirtyfold. I know you have kids, it’s like going from one to two to three to four kids, and you’re like, “Oh my goodness. This is different.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That makes sense because there are, I think, opportunities for me to do both in my current roles."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you think about everything we’ve talked about, what you want to do, you have choices around how you get there, but you’ve identified at the very least for now, you’ve identified one area that there seems to be a gap that would help position you better for what you want to do in the future. We still haven’t answered the how fast do you need to move. It’s up to you how fast as long as the opportunities are there. We’ve talked about do you need to have a 5-year plan, a 10-year plan, a 15-year plan, a 20-year plan?. I don’t know, maybe I took the easy way out as a coach and I said it’s up to you. With all that said, we talked about a lot, what are you left with or where are you now compared to where you were when we started this conversation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Our conversation has confirmed to me that I am on the right path, that I am thinking about the right experiences that I need being positioned on a team and that maybe things coming easily to me is not an indication that I need to move faster, it’s that I need to diversify. I also think with the absence of a clear role that doesn’t really exist yet, I’m thinking about two very traditional roles, a chief of staff role in a C-suite role. Am I bending myself for those roles or are those roles going to be bending closer to me?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m not really sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, earlier in the conversation, you told me you have a certain way of approaching things when you’re not sure. What happens to them on your to-do list?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They get pushed off."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Until when?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Until I get more clarity on them and then all of a sudden, I click."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How do you apply that here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that’s a fair point. I think I need to focus on these experiences, forget this how quickly, kind of what the future state is and make sure that I’m working every day towards this ultimate goal. It doesn’t matter if I become chief of staff in 2 years, 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, because it might not actually be a chief of staff role."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, look, here’s the thing. When you came out of college, did you think you were going to go to Davos before you turned 30?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Exactly. By no means am I saying, “Hey, forget the goals. Don’t have goals.” All I’m suggesting and I don’t even know if I’m suggesting, I’m actually playing back what I think I hear you saying is, “Maybe I don’t need to be so crystal clear because I have faith and confidence that the right opportunity will come up for me. The one that’s right. Instead, let me focus my energy and my time on building these muscles so that whatever opportunity comes up, I will be ready for. I have a general idea of what it looks like. I know I want to lead. I know I want to lead big. I’m not a small player. I want to be a big player. I am ambitious. I don’t quite know what it looks like, so I’m going to let that sit and marinate for a little bit until the fog gets lifted. But in the meantime, I’m going to make sure that I’m dressed for the part and conditioned for the part, whatever way that part ends up looking like.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That is exactly what I need to do. Man, you’re good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, you’re good. You’re good. That’s great. What’s one thing you’re going to do coming out of this conversation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m going to build a team and I’m going to start managing people and navigating that whole world. I’m going to keep up my network and make sure that the skills and the muscles that I’m flexing continue to make sense. I think if there’s a point where the muscles that I’m flexing don’t make sense to either me or those in my network who are positioned closer to where I want to be, that’s when it’s time for me to move on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. That’s great. All right. Listen, I’m excited. I can’t wait to hear where you end up. I have a feeling it’s going to be someplace big and I’m really looking forward to seeing where that is."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. I’m very excited. I think that’s why when I was on these walks with my newborn baby thinking about where I’m going to go next to my career, for me, it wasn’t until someone said to me, “You are a leader,” that I was like, “Oh, I am a leader.” It’s that inflection point. I appreciate this time with you because I never knew what changed in these leaders’ lives and how they really moved forward. I’ve seen people who have gone super fast and it was exactly where they needed to be. Then I’ve seen people who have gone super fast and then things are abruptly stopped. And so, I think if I transition from this mindset of timing and goals, while that is all the rage these days, and really focus on the experiences and the feelings, that I’m going to be able to get there probably faster than I could have if I was doing it the other way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Terrific. Thank you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At the start of our coaching meeting, user, like a lot of ambitious high performers, wanted to know the exact steps to take to get to the next level, but just focusing on a plan is not all that she needs. Instead, it’s about readying herself for the next role by building the skills that she’s going to need while simultaneously positioning herself so that she’s open to the opportunities when they arise. All of that takes some planning for sure, but it also takes some flexibility and openness to what sometimes doesn’t go exactly according to plan and yet might be the biggest opportunity in her hand. That’s it for this episode. Next time on Coaching Real Leaders."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thanks to my producer Mary Dooe, sound editor Nick Crnko, music composer Brian Campbell, my assistant Emily Sofa, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners, who share in their journeys. If you’d like to dive deeper into these coaching sessions, join me and the rest of the Coaching Real Leaders community for live episode discussions at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. If you’re dealing with a leadership challenge of your own, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. You can also find me on LinkedIn, on Twitter @MurielMWilkins or on Instagram @CoachMurielWilkins. Of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward. Share it with your friends. Subscribe and leave a review wherever you get your podcast. From HBR Presents, I’m coach AI. Until next time, be well."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "He’s developed a stellar reputation at his organization as the go-to person to solve some very specific, complicated problems. But he worries that the organization has pigeon-holed him as a subject matter expert, limiting his ability to lead more broadly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest, who we’ll call user to protect his confidentiality, is part of the finance team at a large global company. He recently got promoted to vice president and he’s proven to be pretty valuable at this company, running a team with dozens of people spread around the globe."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Within the company that I’m working for, I support a very specific function of finance that supports the business on a day-to-day basis. It’s one of the critical thesis of the engagement with business, because it does define the performance of the business ultimately. It’s a high visibility role. I kind of lead the transformation of the organization along with the day to day execution of the function as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But user is also struggling because he thinks he’s only being viewed as a subject matter expert, even though he feels he has a lot of other ways he can add value. In fact, a few years ago, he left the company looking for new opportunities that would allow him to spread his wings, but when the company faced certain challenges during COVID, they called for user’s specialized skills, and so he returned."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that essentially was when I got pulled back into the function to kind of really help take over the organization again, actually. I’ve been with this organization for twenty-plus years. Somewhere along the line, I really became, how do I say a very, very specialized person in the ecosystem of what this function supports."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, user is wondering how to make it clear that while he’s valued for his area of expertise, he can also add value to the company in other ways, not just as a subject matter expert. Let’s jump into the conversation as I ask him about how he became so specialized in the first place."}, {"role": "user", "content": "One, I think I like data. I’m a very curious person when you share data to me and because of the volumes and volumes of transactions that we typically engage with, given the size and scale that we engage with, I always got fascinated trying to make connections between data points. And that led me to understanding what you do here, what you do here. So, over the years, I’ve really built that understanding in a very, very holistic manner of the changes that can happen and what the impact of the changes are, and what are the kind of both financially, operationally, all of the elements of it, both internal, external. Pretty much I kind of became so, so specialized in this area that I not just created a name for myself, a legacy for myself, but I also built a huge network of people who I can always go to and say, “Can you kind of go look into this one?” And they would always do it because they have in some way or form seen me come to them in the past, either for a question or for an answer. They can absolutely feel comfortable coming to me if they have a question and I feel comfortable going to them if I had a question, even if the question was a very hard to… If it prompted an answer, which is not the answer which people wanted to hear. And so, that’s how I became so kind of really specialized in this one, in this specific function. And so, when things kind of got a little bit out of control, I got pulled back into this one and I essentially kind of moved away from that three years ago, like I said, and I walked back into the role in terms of supporting and making sure we can stabilize what was really happening in the ground actually. Transformation part of this comes in terms of the way it gets done today. But a lot of what I just said happens very manually. Big companies do have a lot of major processes. So, this is a process which is huge in how much pool of dollars that we manage, but very, very manual, extremely localized, very fragmented, very manual. And part of the reaction from the board of directors, from the executive leadership team is, “how could have we operated this way?” And people did not pay as much critical attention to it because everything was going okay. And when it broke the way it broke, everybody said, “How could we have really done it this way?” And that’s where the transformation opportunity came. And we committed investments to really kind of go address some of the fundamental aspects of how we manage, but we also kind of learned to be, vision to go further step up, to kind of really move to more like a machine language capabilities, artificial intelligence capabilities to help ourselves. That’s where the transmission. And so, when I came back, clearly, I didn’t want to do the same, what I did three years ago. So, the part of the kind of motivation for me to really look at it as an opportunity was the transformation opportunity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, it sounds like you’ve sort of built your career or have built a reputation in this very specialized area that supports your business. It has led to creating a name for yourself within the company, as well as a network. And more recently, you were promoted into a role where you will continue to leverage that specialized knowledge and at the same time increase your scope by being responsible, but for other areas such as the transformation as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great. So, you’re now here. And so, what is it that is challenging you at the moment? Why are we sitting together?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s a gift and a curse in some ways. How I say it, a curse is a strong word. The career which I built in this company is largely driven by the opportunities I’ve gotten in this specific area. So, like I said, I built a name for myself. There is name recognition across so many levels for me in this company and for all the good reasons as well. So, my career has propelled in some ways or formed by what I have achieved in this specific area. But it’s also got to a place where it defines me as a person in terms of what I bring to the table. So, anytime you have a breakdown in once in either the [inaudible 00:07:25] or somewhere around the corner or core of it, I get dragged right into it even if I try to move away at points of my career with the company. So, there have been moments when I’ve made choices and said, “You know what? I’m going to do something else in my life.” Because in some ways I was almost thinking myself, am I kind of doing this to myself or are others doing this to me? Because you don’t really know whether you are creating the problem for yourself or you’re… So, am I trying to just build a problem for myself by not really leveraging all the opportunities that is there available for me? And so that’s why I went to Harvard Business School because I really want to broaden my perspectives, which I think was hugely beneficial. If I kind of go back in my background, I came from a very, very small little village where in south of India where you almost know everybody in the village. There were three streets in the village. That’s all it was. So, I never, ever thought I would ever go to a school like Harvard to kind of develop myself. So, I was really thrilled about the opportunity and of course for the first week or so, I felt so out of place because I was completely overwhelmed by just the sheer place actually. But thankfully again, what I got there is to get more perspectives and really kind of open my eyes in terms of how you could look at things, what you think of opportunities in terms of addressing business problems. So, clearly those have been hugely helpful. So, I took the break, but then, like I said, when something goes wrong, you get dragged right back in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And so, let me just pause here, because I don’t want to lose sight of the paradox that you’ve raised in terms of it’s a gift and it’s a curse. So, and what we’re talking about here is this subject matter expertise and specialization that you’ve built over your twenty-year career at this company. So, you’ve articulated how it’s a gift in terms of it creating a name for you, as well as your network. How does it manifest itself as a curse?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which is kind of what I mean by it’s a strong word, but the way I say it is… It’s almost defined me as a person, which is kind of basically saying, I’ve almost kind of got associated myself only with one specialized theory of what people think you tend to offer. And that is where I kind of say it’s a bit of a curse because I genuinely kind of would think, “Yeah, there is a lot more I could offer.” It’s not just that one field or scope of area that I would offer. And like I said, that’s why I try to go out and do other things just so that I can almost kind of, not just prove because thankfully I have enough name in the company. I don’t have to necessarily prove, but to demonstrate that there could be other places where you can go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So, in a way, is it that you feel like it has limited opportunities for you because you’re so strongly identified with this one area?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That is one aspect of it. The other aspect of it is, like I said, along the way I have gained so much knowledge, it comes back to me as an individual. And I’ve struggled myself to find somebody who can replace me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because that’s where the first part of it comes because you are almost the person to go to when something comes up in that area. And all the years, I’ve tried spending time identifying people, working with people, but I haven’t got to that person who I think essentially takes over. And again, I have the same feedback from the management leadership team as well. You’ve got to find that person who can basically replace you, which is essentially what I have struggled for as well. Now, again, like I said, it’s given all the gifts to me, but how do I kind of get out of this wheel, which I’m spinning all the time. And that’s essentially where I’m looking for help."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s take a pause here. What user is experiencing, this feeling of being pigeonholed into a particular role in spite of his other skills, is one that many face as a result of their success. And like in this case, it often becomes a catch 22. I want to move on, but I can’t find anyone to replace me. But it’s important that we kick the tire on the obstacle that user thinks is getting in the way of reaching his goal, so that’s where we pick the conversation back up. So, let’s start with, you mentioned that there’s two pieces to it. One is if you were able to break out of this strong identification with the role, it might open up other opportunities."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. So, it’s who you’re defined as a leader. And then secondly, part of what has also kept you in this role definition is you haven’t really been able to find somebody who could step in, in lieu of you or as a proxy for you. Right? And so, the question that also becomes interesting is, are you waiting for that person to step in before you can define who you are over and beyond this subject matter expertise? But we’ll explore that. Let’s just hold that for a second."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, let me ask you: you mentioned that you have been trying to find somebody. What has gotten in the way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Like I said, data has always been a passion for me, so I could go down to the most granular level to understand the problem. And I could also transition to maybe making the presentation to the CEO of the company, CFO of the company, kind of really demonstrating what the issue that we have. I’ve been lucky enough to kind of do the transition across the whole channel of this area that I’m operating. Go down to the most bottom level or most granular level, but also be able to articulate the problem, the challenges, the solution to the most senior levels of the company, including CEO, CFO, and everybody. So, when you think of it, I’m looking for people and that’s the expectation I’ve set for the role myself. And that’s the expectation I believe probably people are looking for as well. Who can really do the same, offer the same level of scope in terms of what they deal with – go down to and explain what happens at the most granular level, but also be able to go represent, stand up and have this dialogue with the senior most management of the company."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that is where I’ve struggled in terms of finding the set of skills in people who can transition this range of what they need to offer in terms of what people expect."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So, I mean, it sounds to me like you struggled with meeting one area of the formula, and you keep chasing that area in that you stated that these are the expectations that you have created for the role."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, the expectation of somebody who can do the data part, but who can also communicate at a high level internally and externally, right? So, it sounds like that’s the holy trinity of what creates this role in the way that you execute on it, and that’s the expectation that you’ve set. And when you’ve gone out and looked for people like that, nobody fits it. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, if that hasn’t worked and you keep going down that track and you’ve really put an effort in finding that person, the other area that you might want to examine are your expectations."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And are the expectations that you’ve set not really grounded in what is actually needed for the role, rather than what you desire for the role?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. That is interesting. I’ve had the same question myself because like I said, three years ago, when I did that part of the role, that was one of the biggest transition challenge for the leader who took over from me at that point of time. And we kind of got to a similar place three years later. And that’s where I kind of stepped back in actually. Because in some ways, like I said, I almost walked away from it not wanting to go there and I intentionally – right or wrong – I intentionally stayed away from helping the person make that leap or kind of do the similar offering, what I was offering. If I’m just kind of calling myself as a product or a service, I’m saying, can the leader offer be the same as what I was offering? And I see that way because I didn’t want to model it the same way how I did. And my goal was will people reset the expectation because now that I walked away, can people reset the expectation themselves? And here I am three years later – I’m back to the same place actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, but here’s the thing. I think you’re the one who’s been the expert in this area. So, I don’t think you should be waiting for others to reset the expectation. I think you need to reset the expectation. You know the role best. So, the question becomes, is there any other way that this role can be fulfilled, that builds on what you’ve done, that leverages what you’ve done, but doesn’t have to exactly – be exactly what you do. Right? So, that’s one. And then secondly, it sounds to me like you are sort of seeing things as one end of the spectrum to the other. It’s either you’re all in and it has to be done exactly the way you’ve done it and you’re the only one who can do it, or you’re all out, and let the people fly and let them figure out how to do it. And my question is, is there something that’s in the middle?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that’s probably what I should think about because… and would you then suggest that I take the lead in defining that expectation and kind of guiding through that expectation?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don’t know. What do you think?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so. For my own good, I think so, because, like I said, I don’t want to keep spinning the same view. I genuinely want to do something different, and I also want to set somebody else for successful. Because maybe that’s something which I didn’t do well enough last time maybe. If I think over it now, maybe I should have probably played a more active role in setting the successor who took over my role in a better way. Because like you said, I kind of almost did all in or all out, either I’m in or out. And that probably was not probably the right way for how I should have thought about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think my suggestion really is that you do something different than what you’ve already tried."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, if it’s that middle ground that you haven’t tried yet, then it’s that middle ground. I also think a lot of people, when they think about roles and expectations and you ask them to describe the role, they end up personalizing it too much. Right? So, they describe the expectations and describe the role either as a mirror to the very effective person that’s in it, or if that person is ineffective, as the total opposite, then the person who’s in it. Right? And I think, in your shoes, when you have to try to redefine or define what this role is and set expectations, I think you need to depersonalize it. So, I think the question is not, who can do the role like user has done so well, and what did he do? The question really is, what does the business need from this role? And therefore, what are the criteria that we need to look for in an individual to fit that role?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right? And let’s not also lose sight that it has taken you twenty years to build this level of expertise. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And to build the network and to build the trust with the higher levels’ leaders in your organization. And so, there’s also a question of, is it even viable to find one person who can fit all those things?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. No, I agree."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it could be. It could be. I’m just mirroring the fact that you said you’ve tried to find it and you haven’t, so therefore…"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, very true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Either."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Again, like I said, I’ve tried it maybe two, three times and I probably failed… in like they say, the classic case of the insanity definition, doing the same thing again and again and trying for a different outcome. And it’s probably what I was trying again and again, actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And to be fair, and like I said, I did go seek for opportunities myself because my curiosity led to places where others don’t typically go. And part of my curiosity also has been, I’ve gone there, tried to understand things, like I said, both internal, external perspective, which I’ve been very lucky. And it’s almost like when I came into the company initial years, I was almost like a sponge. I was absorbing so much in this space that it just stuck with me for so long, and that kind of played a benefit in terms of the knowledge. But over the years, what I did on top of the knowledge is really building the network, which kind of became the almost intellectual property of mine, which is essentially what it’s turned out to be. Right? And maybe it’s also a question which I should be asking myself and probably posting it to who I engage with to say, is this even possible? Do we need to think of the role being really managed differently as well, with different people, with different skillsets and what they can bring?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that that’s the exact question, and it becomes business need-driven rather than a reaction to what you’ve done in the past."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sometimes we can let the stone get in the way of climbing the mountain. Meaning, we let the short term problem get in the way of dealing with the bigger challenge ahead. In user’s case, it was difficult for him to see past the issue of finding his replacement. So, it was important that we unpack that first, before we move on to dealing with his reputation as an expert. He’s clearly gained a lot of influence at the company as a deep subject matter expert, but his aspirations are far more than that role and he needs some help getting there. To figure that out he has to start by defining what it is that he wants. Let’s dive back in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I’m going to ask you this."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re very clear about how you’re being defined right now, what your reputation is. What is it that you would like to be known for if it’s not this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I would like to be known as a leader who can bring organizational transformation, take big problems and solve them and also bring teams together. Those are the three ways of how I would think of what if I were to advertise what I bring to the table. That’s probably the three things I would advertise."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now within that, there are definitely capabilities and skills that I bring – like data, for example. That’s a skill set. That’s not an offering that you do. That’s a skillset that you bring and same way, how you engage with people is a skillset that you bring. And those are skills that I have really helped myself develop over the years. And my curiosity is almost like something which is always there and need to just go seek answers in these ways."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you were known for these three things that you named, right – organizational transformation, problem, solving, bringing teams together – what difference would that make for you? What difference would that make in terms of your opportunities? Just what difference would it make?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In terms of opportunities, clearly, I would probably have the opportunity to think about roles in supporting business outside of the one area, which I’m supporting. In a broader prospect. Let’s say, even just owning the profit and loss for deliverable outcome for a business unit. And that’s not… So, I support a global function today. And can I just go look at one geography and say, would I want to be the finance leader for that one geography, rather than just doing a global kind of role for one area, which I have so specialized on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then same way, just one business function. Can I do the similar role for one business function or can I take over a business function, which either has a long term goal to change the way it operates. And can I kind of support the business in executing that strategy of whatever they’re having. That is the opportunity, which I think it would create for me if I kind of move away from this legacy, what I have for myself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And so the way that you would like to be seen and positioned for the company, to what extent do you feel you currently are demonstrating any of those three areas?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I think on the part consistent with what the expectation is for this organization, I think I’m demonstrating across all three. Now, does that make people think that I can only do in those three? That’s the part I get stuck with. Or maybe let me say, am I framing what I offer or what I bring to the table in the three base of how I laid it out? Or am I framing what I bring to the table again, in the context of that specialized area? I think that’s probably where maybe I may have framed it exclusive to that specific area. And that’s probably where I’ve got myself stuck in this, if I were to call this a rat hole, actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There you go. But guess what? You’re digging yourself out right before me. I can see it. Right? And so, it’s the framing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s not a matter of capabilities. It’s really around, how are you presenting yourself to others? And if you’re constantly presenting yourself really being reactive to where people are putting you, then yeah, that’s how you’re going to show up. Versus what you just said, which is, what if I framed, even in my current position – what if I leveled up and, or I even addressed other business issues and reframed the way that I present myself? So, what would that look like for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Clearly, I think in terms of just the opportunities itself, you are generalizing what you can deliver or what you can bring, which is a good thing. And because most opportunities as you think about it are essentially around these three areas, most opportunities. Clearly, you want to support your business to deliver their business goals. And clearly, every big organization has a core goal of bringing teams together, and solving complex problems is always there as a fundamental expectation for everybody actually. So, I clearly think people would appreciate what I can bring to the table in light of what I’m achieving here as a proof point for what I could offer rather than basically… Because of the way maybe I’m framing it, people tend to associate it only that I can do it in this place. Which maybe, it’s probably me who’s saying I’m doing it, but I’m doing it here, rather than me, myself, not telling here is what I bring and these things could equally be applicable in other places where you have a similar requirement in terms of what needs to be done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. So, I think what you’re doing, if I can use a metaphor, I think it’s a metaphor, is instead of positioning yourself as an athlete, you’re positioning yourself as a basketball player."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right? And you are like, “But I can play baseball and I can play football and I can play soccer and I can play tennis.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you keep going out in the world and telling people you’re a great basketball player, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, the question becomes, how do you present yourself as an athlete?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Now in terms of, and this is… I’m going to probably bring this out because this has come up. So, there have been peers of mine who have said, “Here is an opportunity for you to go pursue.” And there are times when I would’ve gone back and told them, “Ah, I’m not really sure I’m going to be able to do that job.” Now I’m thinking it’s almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy I’ve created for myself. But I’ve said, “You know what? I’m only going to do that work because I’m only good at that,” when people, others would’ve come and told me, which means probably even peers would’ve come back and told me, “Oh, maybe you should try it.” And now I’m thinking twice on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, user, right? You are being perceived exactly the way you’re presenting yourself."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, very true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right? So, and you came into this conversation focused on like, “how can other people see me differently?” And I think really it’s how do you see you differently? Right? And back to the sports metaphor, not only are you… What you just shared with me is you’re getting invited to play baseball, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because people think you can, and you’re saying, “No, no, no, no, no. I’m still a basketball player.” Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I think the exercise for you is truly about honing in on, how do you define the value that you bring to the table? That’s number one. And you have framed it in those three areas that we talked about. And then secondly, really important, how do you demonstrate it? To whom? Where? And in what situations? Because if the only place you demonstrate it in is in this little area – not little area, this area that you have specialized in – those are the only people who are going to see it. If you want to see it transferable to other areas, then you’ve got to move from playing basketball to playing baseball and bring it over there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now here’s the good news. You have built, it sounds like from what you’ve shared, an incredible network."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Across the company. That’s like your practice field, because I think what would be worthwhile for you is to actually do some outreach, almost some promotion for yourself around how you can be positioned. Right? You now need to go tell people that you’re a multifaceted athlete."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s an asset that a lot of people don’t have. It’s like, “Okay, now I know, but who do I tell?” You actually have people to tell."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And again, like I said, I have been lucky and grateful for what I have built. Now, in terms of the promotion, this is another. Again, just given my cultural way of how I grew up. This is why I used to even when a peer comes and tells me, “You should try,” I’m almost kind of hesitating myself. Am I even kind of going to try it? Should I even try it in terms of what is being offered actually? So, in terms of this promotion, I probably need to have to force myself to do it because it’s definitely not going to come naturally for me, just given my way of how I approach it, but definitely something which I should think about."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I mean, the word promotion conjures up a lot of like, it’s a bad thing. So let’s just put that to the side, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You framed it as just trying it. And look, user, it wouldn’t be the first time you tried something. I mean, what you shared about your story of growing up in a very rural area and then getting to where you are in your career and being able to attend top educational institutions… you’ve used the word quite a bit over our conversation around being lucky. That’s not just luck."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you attribute it to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I’ve had some great mentors. And like I said, my curiosity has allowed me to really build on certain things, which I never thought I could build on. And mentors have been a huge part of my career. And I’m sure along the way, I’ve got a lot of luck as well. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I think that curiosity is what can lead you to exploring other opportunities. Right? Be curious about them…"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "…since that’s what you’ve grounded yourself – as something that has led to a lot of your success, and mentors are great. All those things are a great combination. You have great mentors, you have curiosity and the will to follow through on it. You have luck as you put it. But I’m going to tell you, those three things are great, but without effort it doesn’t amount to where you’ve gotten in your career. So, I think leverage all those three things and recognize that you also have a track record of putting the effort in and of dealing with situations which, at first, might seem overwhelming. That’s what you described your situation was when you went to business school."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That it was at first overwhelming and then you made it through. Right? And so, such as the life of different career opportunities. Right? So, I don’t think it’s so much about promotion, even though I’m the one who used that word. I think it really is about being curious and having the confidence that you can leverage everything that you’ve been great at in getting you to where you are and translate it to other roles."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Like I said, it was more for me to look inside than outside actually. I was looking outside all the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All the time, all the time. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, I think where we are is, you really have to work this parallel path of identifying someone or, dare I say, others, right? It might be more than one person to be able to start building and fulfilling the role that you’re in so that it fills the need, so that’s sort of drawing something in. And at the same time, you have to take this definition of who you think you are, who you believe you are and the value you think you can bring to the table over and beyond being a subject matter expert in this area and start actually walking that walk."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the way you speak, in the opportunities you put yourself forth on, in what you share with your mentors and your sponsors and your network to start saying, “Yes, I can do this.” Right? “Let me know if there are other area ways I can be of service.” And I think if you walk both of those in parallel, then you might start seeing the transformation that you want to see. So, what are you going to… Let’s get real concrete here. So, as a result of this conversation, what are you going to do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Like you said, probably first, I’m going to kind of define the role in terms of what really needs to be done on that role. And for that I’m probably going to go have dialogues with my business partners, stakeholders, internal, external, to really, what do they think that role entails actually? And how do we kind of then think about the way we can set up somebody for that role? How can we make somebody successful in the role? And if that kind of really also means me working with the set of individuals who can ultimately take up that role, that should also be part of the play. That not just define the role, get feedback in terms of defining the role, both internal, external in terms of… And also set the expectation, what that role should really be as well. And in the process, identify people, folks who are well talented as, or more talented than I am to kind of make sure they will see the role, the opportunity in the role, and then kind of set them up for that role if they want to pursue, if that fits in their view of what they want to do in their careers. So, that is task number one, if I were to call it as one of the work streams that I need to work to. And then the second one is just going back and reflecting on myself in terms of who am I? What do I really represent in terms of what I bring as well as what I’m capable of? And also what I want to do as well, because in some ways maybe I’m kind of happy with where I am, but I also want to complain."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I think that you are very clear on what you no longer want to do."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you haven’t been clear about what you want to do."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, it’s very difficult to move on… [crosstalk 00:38:30]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, when I’m not letting go myself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "… to what you want to do if you’re not letting go of the current situation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. No, I absolutely understand that now, which is great. So, first I have to go back and do the reflection on myself, and then as I think about it, also use my network peers –leaders – to kind of really go back and have those dialogues with them. Also, offer up what I can do if there is an opportunity, and kind of actively seek the opportunity rather than wait for it. Offer what you can do rather than somebody coming and knocking on your shoulder and saying, “Why don’t you do that for me?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right. All right. Very good. Thank you so much for sharing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, thank you. This is super helpful for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you map out your career strategy, it’s not enough to declare that you want to be a leader. At some point, you need to determine what type of leader you want to be. In user’s case, he had to decide whether he wanted to be an expert leader or more of a generalist leader. One is not better than the other, but the approach you focus on significantly informs what opportunities you pursue, how you go about your work, and even how you communicate. Without that focus, you will have a reputation, but it may not necessarily align with your aspirations. The key is figuring out what you want to do, and then thinking about how to reposition yourself to get there. That’s it for this episode, next time on Coaching Real Leaders…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe, sound editor, Nick Crnko, music composer, Brian Campbell, my assistant Emily Sofa, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you – our listeners who share in their journeys. If you’d like to dive deeper into these coaching sessions, join me and the rest of the Coaching Real Leaders community for live episode discussions at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. And if you’re dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward, share it with your friends, subscribe, and leave a review wherever you get your podcast. For HBR Presents, I’m coach AI. Until next time, be well."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "She took on a leadership role as a scrum master because she wanted a new challenge. But after a few months on the job, she worries that she lacks the technical knowledge and years of experience to truly lead her team. Host Muriel Wilkins coaches her through how to build credibility with her older, more experienced colleagues."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call user to protect her confidentiality. She’s based in the middle east and recently changed careers. Her previous role felt a bit routine and she wanted a new challenge."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was seeing all people getting into the software development and hearing a lot about software development and how it’s booming and how it’s that challenging industry, and I’m a person who really likes to be challenged. So, I applied for this job for master team lead role. I studied for the Agile Certified Practitioner. I got the certificate and I applied for the job. It’s something new to me. And I like it because there is a lot to it that I didn’t know about and it’s a whole new way of working."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She chose to become a scrum master, in particular, because it felt more suited to her personality."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The scrum master has to be the one who’s removing impediments, who’s caring a lot for the team, always working to help the team reach their maximum efficiency, deliver the highest value and so on. I wanted the part of removing impediments, being the mother of the team and solving all their issues, all their blockers that they’re facing, help them get their work done very smoothly and actually protect them as well from any distractions outside the team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She’s been in the role for several months and she’s a bit overwhelmed with the learning curve she’s facing. Let’s start the conversation with me asking her more specifically about how it’s been going. So, how’s it been for you? How’s the first four months gone?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pretty tough. I’m facing multiple challenges. One major challenge is that I lack on the technical knowledge. A scrum master doesn’t have to have this real technical knowledge, but when they’re discussing technical issues that I have to follow up on or some processes that I’m not familiar with, then this is a big challenge for me. And it kind of makes me feel that I’m losing their trust because when you’re the person that is supposed to help them, but you’re actually not knowledgeable enough for the work it’s kind of a challenge for me. And the second thing is that some people on the team are older than me and a scrum master is somehow a hidden managerial role or a team lead role. So, there is kind of this resistance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what’s the question that you’re trying to answer for yourself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would like to have your advice on how to deal with those challenges and how can I have a leading voice. I’m trying my best to get that knowledge and gain that knowledge where I can help them, but until then, how can I have this leading role in the team and kind of enforce some processes that might bring a good change for the team? Like for now, some processes are not clear. And I’m trying to enforce new policies that might change their way of working, but again, I want it to go as smooth as possible without having so much obstacles and so much resistance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, you want to affect change and implement change, but you want to do it without any obstacles?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "This sounds like-"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m just mirroring back what you said."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. But I don’t know if this is the right way to put it, but I want to do good things for the team. But at the same time, I’m facing a lot of challenges like trust issues and maybe resistance issues."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. It’s more around thinking about what your goal is. And what I’m hearing you say is you want to create some good, you want to implement some change in the process, and you want to do it in a way where it doesn’t really create any waves. That’s aspirational. That’s ideal. We all would love that. Okay? And at the same time, I think, I mean, ask all the biggest change makers in the world, I think that they would probably say, “Yeah, good luck with not running into some obstacles,” but we’ll get there. Maybe. Let’s see. All right. And so, tell me a little bit about what your experience has been so far that makes you feel like, because you don’t have the technical knowledge, it feels like you’re losing their trust. What evidence do you have of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I tend to ask a lot of questions. They bear with me actually, and they tend to answer, but sometimes I get the feeling that I’m the weak link in the team. Sometimes I feel like I cannot talk about this issue because I’m not that knowledgeable, and therefore I cannot have my say in it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, as a result, what happens then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As a result, I tend to, sometimes I just stay silent or maybe try to bring it without creating so much conflict."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you mean, “creating so much conflict”? What does that look like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, this is a tough question. I’m not sure, to be honest. Maybe it’s just a feeling that whenever I try to discuss things or have a say in issues it turns that, “well, we already have this process and we go by one, two, three. So, why change it now? Or are you sure of what you’re saying?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, they are actually – they’re asking you, “are you sure of what you’re saying?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Some-"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or is it how you receive it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe how I receive it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, I kind of want to play a little game with you, right, of, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of, I don’t even know if it’s a real game, but I’m going to make believe it is. Right? Fact or fiction. I’m sure when you were in elementary school, if you were in a school like me, like in lower school and they were trying to make you determine what’s fact and what’s fiction and you had to figure it out. Except this time, instead of saying fact or fiction, we’re going to play fact or feeling. Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sounds good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Fact is what you can point to that’s actually happening, right? That you say, I think we should implement this process. You actually said it. It’s a fact. Feeling is whatever it is that you tell yourself is happening as a result of either how you said it or how people reacted or what not. Okay. So, I think it’s important here to distinguish between the two. When you’re in a situation with your team where they bring up an issue, for example, and you don’t have the full technical knowledge about that issue, what is that? A fact or a feeling?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s a fact."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s a fact. So, we’re not going to make it up. We’re not going to make like you actually have all the expertise in the world or that you have nothing. You just don’t have all of the technical knowledge that they have. And what is the feeling that happens that’s associated with that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Weakness."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And why weakness?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because this is how I perceive lack of knowledge. Like if you’re not knowledgeable, then you’re not strong enough to lead the team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. And where did that narrative come from?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "From me?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, is that a “story” – and I’m using quotation marks – which you’re kind of stating as an assertion? Is it one that’s helpful for you, or not helpful for you in this particular situation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. It’s not helpful, but sometimes I try my best to read a lot before we have a meeting or a discussion. And I have someone in the company that I trust a lot. So, I always go there and ask him a lot of questions. So, yeah, sometimes I’m on top of things. I feel like I know how this process goes, but if they get into too much detail, then now it’s not that helpful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, I understand you try to get help and that you’re sort of using your feeling of not knowing as much to say, okay, let me go and ask some questions. But going and asking questions and it propelling to that, I’m trying to understand why you’re associating that with being weak."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s not that asking questions is the weak part. It’s the part when I have to say something or have I have to give my suggestion and I cannot do that because I get this feeling that if I’m going to say something, then it’s going to sound stupid."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And has somebody told you that it sounds stupid?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, you’re telling yourself a lot of things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But I mean, you’re reading into a lot. And I’m not saying that there’s nobody out there who doesn’t think you’re stupid. I mean, I’m sure there are a lot of people out in the world who think I’m stupid, but I don’t know for a fact. So, part of what’s happening right now, I believe for you, is that you’re turning your feeling about what you think may be happening into a strong fact as what is actually happening, and my sense is if I was in the room with you, what is actually happening is somebody from this team who’s been on this team much longer than you. Fact, right? Therefore, the assumption that they know more than you is realistic. Fact. That you are expecting yourself to know just as much to be able to keep up with everything that they’re saying when you’re four months into the job."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. That’s it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I mean, great for you for having high expectations, but there’s a difference between having high expectations and having realistic expectations of yourself. Let’s pause here because YARA is going through something. A lot of new managers and leaders go through, especially at a new company or in a new industry, she wants to do a good job, have an impact and help her team achieve, but she’s having a bit of trouble finding the balance between being comfortable coming up to learning curve while wanting to show up as credible and commanding the respect and authority she wants. It’s especially tough for her because the team has the technical expertise that she lacks, but in all kinds of industries, managers and leaders don’t necessarily have to have the same expertise as those on their team. And while that’s okay, YARA has not come to grip with this yet. Let’s dive back in as I ask her how the notion of self-expectations lands with her."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It gives me comfort. But when I think about it again, sometimes issues are not solved, and there has to be someone taking accountability for not solving it. For me, I’m supposed to solve those blockers and I’m supposed to do the communication. I get some people telling me, “You’ve got to do one, two, three and you got to do this and that.” So, yeah, it’s true what you’ve said. Like, maybe I’m having so many expectations for someone that has been only four months in this industry, in this role. But again, I took this challenge because I wanted to be stronger and I wanted to take a role that shows my inner leadership thing. But now I’m feeling like I’m falling behind."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s interesting to me that you said you took the role because you wanted to be stronger, not just to be strong. And so if you compare where you are today to when you started on day one, do you feel stronger?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I’ve learned a lot and I understand many things that back then on my day one I did not understand or I was not following up to, but I kind of feel like it’s slow for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But I want you to first give full credit to the fact that you have learned over the past four months. So, you are stronger than you were on day one."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. That’s a fact. All right. And based on that, we can assume what will happen in the future. Based on what your experience has been in the first four months, the fact that you’ve been getting stronger, you feel like you’ve been getting stronger. You are learning more, you know more now than you did on day one. What can we assume will happen in the next four months? Do you think you’re going to regress? Do you think you’re going to stay exactly the same? Or do you think you’re going to continue learning and getting even stronger?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I believe I’m going to continue learning and getting stronger, but the thing is, I’m just getting cold feet because it’s pretty overwhelming, and I don’t know how to start. Maybe I don’t have a solid plan. I’m trying to read as much as possible. I’m trying to follow up and ask people as much as possible. But yeah, it is still overwhelming. I haven’t yet got to this point where I have a solid plan of what I am going to learn in the future and what I am going to do. I only know that I have gaps and I know where those gaps are, but I don’t know how to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Got it. And so, I want to acknowledge your state right now of overwhelming and I can feel it. Right? I can feel it because every time we come up on like, but here’s what happened, you follow up with like, “Yeah, but.” Right? “Yeah, but.” And you’re sort of dismissing the good stuff that has happened for you, and the reason I keep pulling you back, which I can feel is a little frustrating for you, because you’re like kind of come on, Muriel, can we get to the plan? What are the three things I need to do? And I keep pulling you back to, “But don’t you see what’s happening here?” Here’s why I’m doing that. It’s very hard to come up with an effective plan that’s actually going to work and that you’re going to have confidence in if you don’t accept and really see what’s going on right now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you’re not fully aware of like, “okay, yeah, here’s what’s actually worked. Here’s where I am right now. Here’s fact or fiction.” Now, based on that, what’s the plan that I want to make? I guarantee you in three months, you’ll be right back to where you are now. I have this vision of you where you’re rowing a boat to the other side of a lake and you see the other side of the lake and at the beginning you’re like, “Yup, I got it. I’m going to the other side of the lake.” Then you start rowing and you’re like a quarter of the way in, which is your four months. And you’ve gotten and you’re like, “Oh my God, this is hard. The lake looked so smooth when I looked at it, but now it’s not as smooth as it looked. And it’s really hard and my arms are tired and I’m just going to stay here and float for a little bit. And maybe I should go back to shore. But no, I’m here now, but I have no idea how to get forward.” And so, right now I’m just saying, “okay, well then rest your arms a little bit. Just stay here, get calm.” Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s actually the best metaphor I’ve ever heard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, so what do you do with that metaphor? So, that’s where you are. You’re like a quarter of the way on the lake. So, what are your choices right now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe I don’t have a choice, but continue doing it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You always have a choice. And here’s your choice: You can go back. Right? Which means you could say, “Forget this. I’m going back to my boring job that I had before because even though it was boring and routine, I knew how to do it and I excelled.” Right? Which is probably why it ended up being so routine for you. “I can do that. I can stay right here a quarter of the way in and just be like, this is it. This is it. This is what I’m doing. Or I can continue moving forward.” Based on that, what’s the choice that you’re making?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Continue rowing the boat to the other side. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, again, the reason why I kept pulling you back is in order to do that, you have to be still first. Take a pause, say, okay, let me just take stock of where I am before I continue rowing. So that’s what we’re doing. And then we can decide, how do you row? How fast do you row? What does it look like? How do I break it down? Now, here’s the thing, I told you you had a choice. You can move forward, you can stay where you are or you can go back. Each choice that you make requires a different mindset in terms of how you think about yourself and how you think about the situation. And that mindset will then help support whatever actions you take. Okay. What you cannot do is use the mindset that actually keeps you where you are or takes you back and expect to move forward. You get what I’m saying?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So, I don’t know why, I’m kind of in a game playing mood today. So I’m going to play a little game with you. What is the mindset that you believe you need to have in order to be able to support, I know we haven’t gotten to actions yet, in order to be able to support the choice that you just made, which is you want to keep moving forward on this traction of being and becoming an effective scrum master for your team?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I believe the right mindset is I need to start thinking that lacking knowledge is not a weakness, if you’re trying at least, and if you’re pushing forward to learn more and ask more questions. And there is hope if you continue on learning and you continue on feeding your knowledge, then you’re going to get there. And it actually does matter that you have a say in whatever the team is discussing, even if you think that it’s not right or it doesn’t sound knowledgeable enough."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So, you have a voice."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, what’s interesting here, YARA, is what you are kind of surfacing is shifting to more of what’s called a growth mindset. And with a growth mindset, the difference… I’m going to kind of, like, really synthesize it down. It’s the difference between somebody saying, “I don’t know how to do this,” and shifting to a growth mindset which is, “I don’t know how to do this yet.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That “yet” infers a lot. So, when I add the “yet, “what does that mean for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It gives me a lot of space because yeah, no one can know better in four months. You need time to adjust, time to accommodate and space to accommodate this change, to learn more. It’s going to come."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s going to come. All right. You’re now in a place of, I have hope. I’ve made a choice. I have hope I can do it. It’s going to happen. It’s just not happening right now, but at some point I’m going to have the knowledge and the technical authority to be able to put some of these process in place. Okay. So, now we can move to action. Right? And here’s how I want you to think about it because I think what I also hear you doing is saying, “Here’s where I started on day one, fresh out of my certification, new on the job and here’s where I need to be.” I’m going to put words in your mouth here, which is not good, but just bear with me. “The most effective scrum master ever, okay? And my goodness, it needs to happen fast. It’s four months, why hasn’t it happened already? I just started swimming, but I should have made the Olympics already. What’s the problem?” Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s exactly it. You put it the right way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think what we can do, it’s not to take away the dream of the Olympics. I’m not going to be the dream killer here, but I think what would be helpful for you is to sort of break it down into stages rather than you just focused on the gold of the Olympics. That’s the vision. That’s down the line at some point, but what’s the training plan to get there? And what are the milestones that you need to hit that will give you a sense that you’re on the path to being an effective scrum master? What kind of scrum master does the team need you to be by the end of your first year?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A scrum master that can protect them from any distractions, that helps them remove blockers on the road and a scrum master that has maybe the, not necessarily all the technical knowledge, but all the technical knowledge necessary for them to keep going smoothly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s pause here as user shifts into action planning. We’ve established by now that YARA needs to set realistic expectations for herself, and she’s starting to do that by listing the qualities that her team needs from their scrum master. Now, all of the qualities she’s listed, they can be a bit subjective and there’s not necessarily a clear point at which she’s finished. So, it’s important to make them more concrete and break them down into more manageable chunks for her. In her case, by giving them a realistic timeframe, this’ll help her deal with the ambiguity she may feel as she follows her learning path, and she’ll get a sense of accomplishment rather than feel like she’s chasing a moving target. I get the sense that’s probably what’s causing you the most difficulty is the ambiguity. You don’t know what you don’t know, and that’s exactly why we’re trying the best that we can to make the process as concrete as possible for you, so that you have something to hang onto. And so, the biggest thing that you can be doing right now is to A, do exactly what you just did, which is accept that it is ambiguous. That’s why it’s been hard."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, stop thinking it should be easy. It shouldn’t be like this. And you said something earlier, which is, you said, “I have a sense of where my gaps are in terms of what it is that I don’t know, I don’t have the knowledge.” So, do you have, I just want to confirm, do you have that sense? Do you have a sense of, here are the areas where if I could just get a bit stronger from a knowledge standpoint, it would help take me from a two, to a three?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I would, again, stress upon the knowing more about the product and knowing more about the technicalities behind it and what’s required. That’s number one. And number two, get more details and know how to extract the KPIs behind the team’s performance and how to improve those. That’s number two."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, that doesn’t sound ambiguous to me at all. It sounds very specific in terms of the areas, it’s not everything, but the areas that would create the most leverage for you right now in terms of your learning curve."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, then now that you know that, then it becomes, “Okay, how do I beef up my learning around that?” Right? You already mentioned that there are people that you can go to when you have questions. The people that you can go to is it, as something comes up, you reach out to them and you’re like, “Hey, I have a question about that.” Is that how that happens?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Most of the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Most of the time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, that’s great. You should definitely continue to do that. And it’s great that you have reached out to people. It’s also very reactive to what’s happening in the moment. Okay. So, going back to our lake metaphor, when you’re rowing, you hit a rock and it’s when you hit the rock that you’re like, “Hey, hey, hey, wait a minute. How do I deal with it when I hit a rock?” Right. Versus when you were a couple meters away or yards away, you saw the rock coming and you said, “oh, there’s a rock that’s going to come, let me go call some people to figure out when they have situations where there’s a rock, what do they do? Even though I’m not there yet.” That’s being proactive. And I think part of what you need to do in your process is inject some proactivity to your learning. So, what does that look like? I keep using the word learning because I think you are on a parallel path right now. One part of your path is you started this new job. This other part of your path is it’s a complete new learning path. So, you have some modules that you need to work through. And I think you need to formalize it a bit. And what does that look like? I would suggest you identify some of the people that you feel are good resources for you, people who have the type of knowledge that you’ve identified you need, the two specific areas you said. And make a request from them, “Hey, can I meet with you for 30 minutes every two weeks or once a week or for an hour, once a month? And can you download for me everything you know about this area, I’ll come with questions, but could you start by telling me what are the things that I need to know about this?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sounds like a good plan."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The other piece though, that we haven’t talked about is something that you’ve mentioned is, in the meantime, you’re still in these meetings and you said, “How do I have a voice in these meetings?” And I think at the beginning of the conversation you said there were two things kind of standing in the way for you. One is your knowledge and the other is, I believe you said was, your age – that you felt that because you were younger that you face some resistance."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not for all people, but maybe a couple."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. All right. And you know for a fact that it’s because of your age?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I’m not really sure. I’m just assuming maybe. It’s because there’s this assumption that people get resistant to you if you are in a leading position and you are younger than them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s an assumption. Who’s assumption?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe it’s a thing between people, that maybe you hear about it a lot. I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you’ve heard about it, it’s been said to you, like people have said, “Hey YARA, you’re going to get resistance from these few people because you’re younger and a leader.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No. Okay. You’ve read about it somewhere? You saw a show on it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I’ve heard some people’s-"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You believe it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "– issues about it. No, I maybe not. I’m not sure actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Okay. So, in our fact or fiction game, it’s questionable, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Does it happen? I’m sure it happens. Is it happening? We don’t know."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But more importantly is the fact that you are younger than some people on your team. Is that something that’s in your control?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Definitely not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Exactly. So, there’s nothing we can do about that. We can’t change your age. Okay. I mean, it is what it is. When you’re my age, you try a lot of things, but you still can’t do it. You still can’t do it. So, it still goes back to the experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it goes back to, as you put it, making sure that you are establishing trust with your team, because you started off by saying that you feel like you’re losing trust."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let me give you a little bit of a riddle. I don’t even know if it’s a riddle, a puzzle. If you’re the youngest person on your team and you don’t have the full level of expertise yet, what are other ways that you can gain the trust or build trust with team members besides being they’re same age or older or knowing as much or more than them? What are other ways that you can gain their trust?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe better communication. Having a sync with them. Maybe ask them around if I can do anything to help them make their lives easier. If they have feedback actually, to maybe give it to me, anything that they would like to share, maybe. If there is something that I know for sure I need to be doing, then I go ahead and do it, but at the same time maybe ask them if that’s the right way to do it. If they would add anything from their side, if they have any ideas or things to share."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, in essence, what you’re doing is you are engaging them in the process, right. You’re building a connection with them. And this is not to dismiss what you shared earlier that you feel like if you could give direction, then it would create trust, but trust is not just built by giving direction. Trust is also built by building connection."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, what experience do you feel you need or what do you feel you still need to learn to be able to build connection?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m not really sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I would ask you to sit with that because it might just be that you already have all the capabilities to build the connection piece of the trust equation, but you’re so focused on the other part of the equation, that I need to be able to be the expert and give direction, that you’re missing out on the trust building process that could have been happening and probably is happening over the course of the first four months. I just want you to realize you have a lot more at your disposal than you’re giving yourself credit for. It’s like having different muscles, but you’re just using one or you’re trying to use the one that isn’t fully grown yet. And meanwhile ignoring all the others and they’re like, “oh wait over here, over here, we can get you across the lake.: And you’re like, “No, I only want to use this muscle to get across the lake.” And they’re like, “Okay. Okay.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, trust is a multifaceted practice – trust building, that is. And what I would encourage you to do is think about, what are the different layers, what are the different actions that you can take that help move the needle on trust with this team, in spite of you not having the full technical expertise that they have, and in spite of you not being the same biological age as them. Because those are the two things that are not fully in your control at the moment. So, what is in your control? And it’s all the things you just said. Does that make sense?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It does."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. And in order to be able to do that, I would offer you that the skill that’s probably going to be most helpful to you right now – is the skill of being able to ask the right questions rather than have the right answer. Okay? Do you see the difference?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I think the expectation you were putting on yourself was, “Something comes up and I just need to have the answer, I need to just solve, need to just save the world right all by myself.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And maybe one day you will, right. Let me know, okay? That would be great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Definitely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But in the meantime, become an expert in knowing what questions to ask and in framing the question and in figuring out, if that’s the question, what’s the plan to solve it, rather than an expert in the solution in and of itself."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I think that’ll help take some of the pressure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It does. It does. Definitely. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It does?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "At the end of the day, it’s a teamwork thing that has to be done within a team. There’s no one person that has one role that sticks to them. So yeah, I believe it has to be a team issue rather than one person’s issue to solve."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, it’s interesting to me as we’re talking about this because, forgive me, but I’m not wildly familiar with the role of scrum master. I kind of have a very surface level understanding of what it is, but inherent in the word itself, right? Like the word master, right? Just like, inherent in it is this “master.” There’s a certain level of mastery that is inherent in the title, and so, no wonder you have this expectation of yourself that from day one you need to have this mastery of everything. And so, maybe there’s an opportunity for you here, even though that’s the formal role title. What name could you give your role? How would you title your position in a way that is much more reflective of who you are and who you think you need to be for this team to meet its goals? Like if it were not scrum master and you could rename it, what would it be?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe helpers/coach."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And if you’re a helper/coach, how does that change the way you move about this role? The goal hasn’t changed, but does it change the way that you approach it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yeah, it does change a lot. There are some things and processes maybe, guidelines about the way of work about scrum mainly and how we do things that they need coaching about and how to be more of a self-organizing team. I believe I can do that well, maybe. And the other thing about solving blockers and helping them around, I believe I can do that without the pressure of being the only one that can do it. I can always help them, but at the same time ask them for more details. So, we all come up with a solution. It doesn’t have to be one person coming up with the solution."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, here’s a very practical thing that I would suggest that you do. I would list… if you have a whiteboard in your office or if you have a notebook, someplace that’s visible. I think electronic makes it a little hard because you don’t see it. It’s something that you should be able to see. Okay. Visible to you. I want you to list in a column, the four or five things that you think are the areas that you want to get to, remember we said by the end of year one. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then to the right of that, columns that are by day. And every day I want you to keep a journal. Doesn’t have to be long. You’re not writing an essay. You’re just jotting down in bullet points. What did I do today that helped move me a little bit closer? Even if it’s like a little tiny mini step, towards that goal that I have for myself of where I want to be by the end of year one."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The second question is, what did I learn today in this particular area? Shouldn’t take more than five minutes a day."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I want you to just keep track of it. Why do you think I’m asking you to do that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I believe first of all, it creates maybe a relief that there is some kind of a progress to it. And a daily reminder that there is progress. Maybe you cannot get there by tomorrow, but you will be getting there by the end of next month or the month after that, and it creates a sense of commitment that to keep moving forward that, yeah, you can do it. You’re showing progress. Just keep on going and you’re going to get there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So, there’s a saying that, well, there’s two sayings that I’m going to share with you. One is that you can’t manage what’s not measured. Right. It’s one of the very few things I remember from business school. It was in my accounting class. Right. You can’t manage what you can’t measure. And in this case, what you’re managing is yourself."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the measurement is where you want to be in the future and where you are now and what steps are you taking to get there? The second saying is progress is not linear, meaning it doesn’t happen just straight up."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Progress is not linear. It’s zigzag."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, are there going to be days where you’re like, “I didn’t learn anything and I did not move towards the goal. In fact, I moved backwards.” Yes. There will be. But that’s just that day. It’s the whole picture that we’re interested in. And over time, regardless of whether you’ve moved back some then moved forward some, altogether it’s not even is there progress, but is there momentum? Are you gaining momentum towards being the leader that you want to be on this team? Okay. And so, I think with focus now, you can stop your rest period on the lake and continue to row forward. Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Terrific. Well, thank you. Thank you YARA."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you. Thank you very much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For user, it was stressful to leave a comfortable job and take on this new challenge. But the main thing we worked through was thinking about how to make those challenges less ambiguous and more digestible so that she could walk away with concrete things to do in the form of a learning plan. What also helped her is the reframing of her role with less emphasis on technical mastery and more focus on that of a coach. When we started our coaching session, YARA wanted really specific answers from me. I purposely let her sit with her situation and without answers from much of our conversation, despite it being uncomfortable for her. Why? Because the coaching session mirrored what was happening to her in her role. She had to become comfortable sitting in the middle of that proverbial lake so that she could see where she was and then decide what direction to move in before she starts rowing again. Like YARA, sometimes we can all benefit from pausing to take stock of what we need to learn before we take action. That’s it for this episode, next time on Coaching Real Leaders."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe; sound editor, Nick Crnko; music composer, Brian Campbell; my assistant, Emily Sofa; and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you our listeners who share in their journeys. If you’d like to dive deeper into these coaching sessions, join me and the rest of the Coaching Real Leaders community for live episode discussions at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. And if you’re dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show, apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward, share it with your friends, subscribe and leave a review wherever you get your podcast. Fromm HBR Presents, I’m coach AI. Until next time, be well."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "He’s had a successful career in the military and is deeply invested in his professional growth. As his transition out of the military approaches, he wants to figure out what’s next for him professionally. Host Muriel Wilkins coaches him through how to best prepare for the next phase of his career."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call user to protect his confidentiality. He’s had a substantial career in the military, working in special operations and having deployed a number of times. He’s also pretty clear about what fuels his purpose."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I had a pretty unstable childhood and a lot of that came with the challenges of bullying. I saw some pretty violent acts towards people that I cared about pretty early on, and I think I just kind of developed this desire to protect people and this desire to kind of foresee other people’s needs and then to try to meet them there. It’s giving back. You have this pain in your past, and it stirs up a lot of emotions, and I believe that those emotions can be used as fuel. I feel like I’m a very emotional guy as it is, and so whenever I see those things stirring up, I try to find a way to direct them into a way that is going to be healthy for the people around me and ultimately, what I know to be good for me as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user didn’t get to this place of self-awareness easily. He was recently promoted to a leadership role, but has also been through hard personal situations along the way."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The thing about my job, I guess, that has changed over the last few years, on my last deployment, my brother committed suicide, and then I kind of came home to a very messy life. So, I really kind of found a passion for wellness and behavioral health advocacy really, and trying to break the stigma of that in the military. So, I’ve really been kind of focused on that for the last few years, and I would say that it’s those two things that kind of work in sync, right? That it’s the desire to do a hard job and to do it in a community that you love and that you care about, and then the driving passion is to take care of people. Whether that’s a hurt guy on the battlefield or a guy that’s struggling with talking to his wife at night."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user came to me wondering what kind of steps he should be taking as he winds down his military career. Let’s jump in now, as I ask him more about why he was interested in a coaching session."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I feel like I’m at this really interesting place in my career where I feel like as an enlisted guy, it’s not that you’re chasing rank – it’s that you’re chasing the next job that you think will bring more satisfaction and all of that. I feel like I’ve found that job. The tricky part now, I’ve got five more years until I’m able to retire out of the military, and that’s my expectation is to retire. Whenever I look at moving in that direction, what I’m realizing is I spent 15 years to basically get to where I’m at and now I’m going to get a few years to really enjoy it, and then I’m going to be off to the races on a new thing. I guess one of the challenges that I’m facing right now is that I have a level of access, influence and ultimately opportunities for success that I’ve never had before. I’m trying to find a way to synchronize those opportunities and to be very selective about which ones to choose in order to transition out of the military. I feel like I have ideas for how I want to do that, but I feel like I’m really wrestling with how to say no to people whenever they feel like they have a need that I can fill, but that I don’t feel like aligns with those goals. Then I’m having a hard time, I guess, kind of – to be completely honest ­ allowing that to not affect my self-esteem. One of the challenges is that it’s very easy to give too much because you know deep down that you can, but that you’re always, I mean, I’m far more sensitive to it now, but I’m realizing that my family’s going to take a hit and my personal time’s going to take a hit. All of those things take a hit whenever I take more onto my plate than it’s required, even though it looks like another feather in your cap in regards to how well you’re doing. I’m trying to find a way to have a better filter so that I can be brilliant on the basics and then also not overwhelm myself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, what I’m hearing is being at this place where you now see your exit on the horizon."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just terrifying."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s like, I don’t know I have spent many, many, many, too many hours that I can ever count driving up the New Jersey turnpike, I95 or anything on I95. It’s when you finally start seeing signs for your exit and you’re like, “oh my gosh, it’s 80 miles away.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We’re almost there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, 70, 60, 50, right? You’re almost there. So that’s kind of where you are."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re wanting to make sure that the decisions that you make today will ease you off that exit ramp in a way that you actually get to the destination that you’re trying to go to."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah, I think that’s a great way to put it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is that right? All right. While at the same time, not sacrificing yourself in the process."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, let me ask you this. Do you have a sense of what your exit looks like and what happens after the five years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A sense is probably a good way to put it. It’s a general direction. I love coaching. I love that kind of a relationship where you can speak to someone and they are looking to listen. That’s been, honestly, the most rewarding part of being in the military for me has been the personal relationships where I get to invest in people. So, I want to be able to continue to do that, although I don’t really know exactly what that looks like yet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, one of the things that I’m going to encourage you to do is to sort of lift out of the specifics of what life after the military will look like in terms of, what am I doing on a day to day basis? I think before zooming into that, it would be helpful to zoom out and to start defining what does success look like after this five year exit? because it sounds like those are the things that are important to you to define it more broadly than what your professional role is."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That makes a lot of sense."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So, we can start there because I think if we can understand a little bit better start painting the picture of what success looks like, then we can work backwards to determine what are the decisions that you can make today that increase the chances that you’ll actually get to that image of success that you have. And because you mentioned that part of it is you don’t want your self-esteem to be affected because it sounds like in the career that you’ve been in, productivity and being able to crank a lot out and being able to handle a lot. So, let’s talk about that. If you think about five years from now, six years from now, what are the conditions of success for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it would look like investing in people in that sort of mentorship role. I would want to have more of that. I would want to be able to have essentially autonomy of my time. I want to have the ability to work when I want to work, and what that really is, is that is really me being able to maximize my family as a priority. Honestly, I enjoy public speaking. I enjoy being able to, I guess, inspire. That’s the real thing that I like to think that I at least have an inkling of potential in, and I would enjoy to be something in regards to that, to have a voice that people want to listen to. Ultimately, honestly, and here’s the one that I’ve just realized over the last few days is that I want to be able to provide opportunities for other veterans specifically, but then also for people in service, not service industry, that’s not really the best way to put it, but law enforcement, EMS, the people that are basically public servants in a very challenging role to be able to provide opportunities for them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. All right. So, let me play back this picture that you’ve drawn. Having a voice, inspiring others, investing in people as a mentor, having autonomy of time and flexibility, maximizing your family time, providing opportunities for other public servants who really work in hard, challenging, difficult roles, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All of those things can be expressed in a number of different ways. In all of that, you also mentioned, “Oh, maybe I’ll be a public speaker.” The public speaker piece is an expression of all of that. Potentially being a coach is an expression of that. You could do that by becoming a teacher. Heck, you can do that just by, not just not trying to belittle it, but you can do that by being a father."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. That’s a good point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, this notion of start with what is the impact that you’re trying to make, what is this sense of how you want to express yourself and all the experiences that you’ve had, start with that and what it would look like, and then you can then determine what form does it actually take. So, how does that land with you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very well. I think that feels very affirmational in regards to why I felt frustrated in this a lot, because it feels like you’re trying to define something too rigidly, even though I feel like innately I know what I’m hoping to express, but then every time I try to build a structure to fit it doesn’t ever work because I don’t have enough details and I’m not close enough to it realistic. So now, I think the start with impact, I’ve never thought about it directly from that sort of a perspective."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Look, you’ve been in a career where I think, my understanding – correct me if I’m wrong – is there’s a pretty rigid structure in terms of career path and roles that you take, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You don’t go into the military and say, “I’m going to create my role.” I mean, maybe you can, but for the most part, it’s like, no, there’s sort of a step ladder, step function way of advancing, and these are the roles that you take and this is the title and the title doesn’t change and all of this, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, this is probably the first time from a career standpoint that there is no clear definition. You’re not being told what you need to do next."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I agree completely. So, in my childhood, I think we moved 24 times before I turned 18. So, it was very, very unstable in regards to geographical location. So, I know for me, that is one of the things that I really yearned for whenever I got a career is that I was like, hey, I don’t mind working hard, but I don’t want to move my family. The thing that I’ve realized as I’ve gotten older and older is wow, it’s more than just I don’t want to move my family. It’s I want to have a clear expectation. I want to be able to look and see stability, and I think that’s why the military honestly works so well for me is because it is a rigid structure and I know where I fit. This is the first time that I’m kind of growing past what the military has provided. One of the fascinating things about special operations specifically is that you develop a very keen sense of the importance of people and the importance of a network. I have to say I’ve seen my network really explode over the last, I would even say couple years, and so being able to develop these relationships of people that share similar values and have had similar experiences and then being able to transition and not only draw from their experience pool, but also to be able to kind of connect the pieces. So, I think that the network, the ability to look at risk and be okay with it and then honestly, to develop comprehensive plans, that’s a big thing that we do. I feel skilled in it, but the challenge is whenever those factors continue to change and that’s where I yearn for stability and structure and I’m like, “Why can’t I build this?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right. It’s like, “oh, I want flexibility and autonomy and openness, and being able to do all these things and I want structure.” I say it laughingly, but it’s – and, and it’s a constant balance of the two is what you’re trying to do is how do I optimize all the opportunities as you’ve put it, and at the same time, make sure there’s some stability. So, even understanding what does stability mean for you right now, and what does opportunity mean for you right now will then help you determine what are the boundaries that you need put in place so that you can optimize both."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s funny, right? So, one of the things I like about my job that I don’t really feel like I’ve had up until this point in my career, I took this job about a year ago, is that I know what almost every single day will look like. There’s something deeply innately satisfying about that to be able to look at the next few weeks and be like, I like that. That’s something that I’d see with stability. What I do within those hours at work, I want to be new and exciting. I want to innovate. I want to grapple with challenging issues, but I want to know when I’m clocking out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I hear that as it’s stability, I hear it also as predictability."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s a great way to put that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s pause here. user came to me with some broader questions about where he might want to go to after his career in the military is over, but he’s challenged with how to figure out what he wants and how to pursue it given all the competing demands on his time and energy. He’s realized that he has to figure out what to say yes to and what to say no to even when there are lots of exciting opportunities coming his way. He’s also realizing that predictability and stability are important to him and their lies the tension. He’s moving towards something new and different, and yet he wants to have some stability and predictability. So, to move him forward, I invite him to reframe the question he’s been asking himself. Instead of focusing on what do I say yes or no to, I ask him to reframe it to how do I harness the opportunities that are coming my way in a predictable way and in a way that gives me disability I’m yearning for? Let’s dive back in as he explores that question."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Some opportunities are very clear and specific. It’s like, “Hey can you come support this training exercise,” and that’s like a week long, and I know exactly when I’m going to be there. I know exactly what I’m going to do. Then there are other things, like working groups are a great example where we’ll take a complex problem and then a bunch of people will hop on a call and try to talk about it. Those things can be far more nebulous. You could spend just an hour on the call or you could spend 10 hours preparing products for the call and then have to revise that and change that afterwards. Honestly, I think I’ve probably not done the best job and really clearly defining what those more nebulous tasks are actually requiring of me, and then that starts to encroach on my ability to not have to work quote/unquote, “overtime.” Obviously, that doesn’t exist in the military, but in order to kind of put myself into a position where, because I said yes to something, I’m not going to let it fail, but at the same time, it’s going to require far more effort than potentially I’d planned. Those things, I feel like, just suck the life out of me where it’s like the second that I look at the clock and I’m like, “I’m going to be late to getting home,” and expectations are starting to get infringed upon with my family, then that’s where I get frustrated because I feel like I’m taking from them while giving to an organization that obviously I love, but that isn’t my family. I think I struggle with defining the amount of work that I need to put into projects in order to see them succeed, and honestly, I don’t even know if I’ve ever really thought about that up until this conversation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. In a sense, you’re saying yes without really knowing what you’re saying yes to when you take on these projects. So, with that in mind, what do you think you could be doing when these requests come your way? Which it sounds like there’s a lot of them that do. You’re in demand, MICK. So, when you’re in demand, what do you think you could do when the next call comes? “Hey, can you sit on this taskforce, or can you work this group? Can you talk to this person? Can you lead this project?” What could you do that would help you be able to determine whether or not this aligns with the expectations you have of yourself, of having a bit more of a predictable schedule, some stability, and being able to focus on the things that you want to focus on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think of two things. One, I could be more upfront in my conversation with them and say, okay, now this is what it looks like to me. Is this what it looks like to you? I think that’s rarely a part of that conversation. I think I can definitely do that. I think the second thing is I wrestle with time management at work whenever it comes to blocking off chunks of time for specific projects, and that’s kind of the issue of being the guy in the corner office is that people are always knocking. I think that’s been a part where it’s almost like I don’t know how much time I have to spend, because I’m not really structuring it that well, and so whenever somebody asks for something, I’m like, “Oh, sure, I’ve got the time.” I’m not realizing like, “oh yeah, there’s six things that I didn’t write into my schedule that I should have, or that were nebulous in themselves and don’t really have an easy way to schedule without me just being intentional about it.” I think it really is probably a lot of that. It’s me actually knowing how much of that currency I have to spend, because very regularly I don’t have a solid grasp on that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, doing the work to get more of a solid grasp is where you’re at, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Aligning around expectations is what you’re talking about. What might be helpful for you here is to also be able to discern between when a request is being made of you and when it’s a demand. Let me explain the difference, or do you know the difference – let me ask you – between a request and a demand?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would dare to think that I do. I was thinking a request I can basically say no to and a demand is, yeah, it’s going to happen whether I like it or not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Exactly. Exactly. A request, there’s three possible answers. It’s yes, no, or maybe – let’s talk about it this is how we can make it work, right? The demand is it’s non-negotiable, this is what it is. My sense is that particularly as you’ve risen up in your career and the level at which you’re at now, you’re probably receiving way more requests now than you are demands."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would agree completely, and honestly, I think in the past I mostly received demands. So, it’s almost a habit of saying yes, more than it is say a conscious thought process of, oh, maybe I don’t have to do this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Exactly. So, it’s really, how should we put it, exercising your ear, to, A, discern is it a request or a demand, and if it’s a request, then how do I respond? So, that if you do say, yes, it’s aligned with the conditions that you need to make it work for you, and it’s aligned with the conditions that they need to make it work for them. I think the second thing that you’re bringing up is, “But, you know, even when I take things on, I’m actually not really quite sure if I have room to do it.” Which becomes the capacity question."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, you sort of have to proactively look at, well, how much capacity do I actually have? How much can I take on, and be on top of that. It’s no different, you talked about moving a number of times as you were younger. Similarly, I moved a lot as well. To this day I still think about, okay, let me look at my suitcase. How much room is there exactly? Let me not over-pack it because the room is the room is the room. Your capacity is your capacity and you can try to push it to its limit, but at some point there is going to be a limit."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I think that’s the part that is so challenging for me is that I’m this voice and advocate for wellness, and in telling people about, “Hey, like this is what a healthy life balance should look like.” Then the one area that I consistently kind of overwhelm my capacity is in work, whenever I feel like I’m trying to give to other people. I mean, just like it’s very easy to look at rigid tasks, like, “hey, I’ve really got to write this evaluation. Okay, well, that’s going to take X amount of time.” What you can’t plan for is the fact that one of your sailors just started having an issue with his wife or just wanted to fight one of the other guys or whatever. Then it’s like, okay, well then that time gets encroached upon by something that is urgent. So, it’s almost like programming flexibility, is also something that I really wrestle with because I think I can keep this within capacity, but then if any random thing happens, then all of a sudden the whole system gets kind of thrown off. I don’t feel like I’m good at planning for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, here’s the thing, you plan for the things that you can control. You leave space for the things that you can’t. So, what you know is that some of these things are going to jump off, as you just said. There will be fires. It’s almost like every day when I drive my kids to school, we pass by a firehouse and on almost any given day, there’s a couple of the firefighters sitting in front, if the weather’s good, they’re sitting in front of the firehouse. To any person, they might think they’re not doing anything. I see it differently. They’ve planned for the potential that there will be a fire, and so, they’ve created capacity by having a couple of people actually being able to just sit in front of the firehouse waiting. They’ve created the capacity for what they know will happen. What they don’t know is when it’s going to happen, but there’s always somebody on standby. So, I use that to say to you, what is your standby time that allows space for you to be able to physically, mentally and emotionally respond to these emergencies that pop off in your realm, in your work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I instituted two-hour lunches almost as soon as I showed up. I think that I look at those two hour lunches like that, where either a lot of times I’ll go for a run or whatever during lunch, but then that’s also my extra time for doing counselings or for correcting someone or those sorts of issues, or even just a good time just to walk around the building and chat with folks. So, I have created that, and I feel like that’s worked pretty well. I think the other challenge that I’ve faced recently is that I’ve traveled quite a bit. I would say out the last seven or eight weeks, I’ve traveled for about four of it. Then the challenge that I get is that whenever I start traveling or I’m doing something else, then you kind of accrue all of this extra work that’s not getting done, and then you’re coming back. Then all of a sudden I’m using that extra space that I created to try to catch up, and then that’s getting in the way of other things. It just feels like the mountain of tasks just continues to build. Honestly, I think that’s been the most recent stressor that I’ve been dealing with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So, here’s the thing. You plan for predictability as much as you can, and you accept the fact that it’s not always going to be predictable and that those moments when things like travel happens or an emergency happens, or whatever it is that kind of takes you away from your regular cadence of activity, that those things are temporary. I liken it to sounds like you run from what you said, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I do. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don’t know if you’ve ever done any long distance running like marathons or, or anything like that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m trying to do a 100-miler this year. We’ll see if actually comes through."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh my god, okay. Here I am saying a meager marathon and you’re doing a hundred miler. So, I mean, look, the hundred-miler that you’re going to do is a one-time thing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But the predictability is the training that you do leading up to the hundred-miler."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But that a hundred miler will be a one-time thing that you do. It’s going to happen. It’s going to start and it’s going to end, and then you’ll go back to whatever it is that you were doing. You are holding that at the same time as the predictability of the day in, day out training. The reason I’m bringing this up, user, is that things are going to happen. You can’t even necessarily schedule for them to happen, even though you do these two-hour lunches to have the spaciousness. It’s more knowing and having confidence that when something comes up such as travel, having the confidence that when you come back, you will be able to catch up and you will make the space to catch up and you will plan for that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Honestly, one of the things that’s funny about having to have confidence is that most people would say that I am an extremely confident person, and I think that’s a part of just what comes with the job. That’s how you can embrace risk – is by being like, “well, I’m super confident in what I bring to the table.” I think what’s hard, especially in a new role, is feeling like you’re not as confident as you have been in the past, and so, it’s like you say that and in my head, I’m like, “you’re absolutely right,” and then there’s a part of me that’s saying, “Why aren’t you confident? You should be confident. How dare you not be confident?” You know what I mean?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, why should you be? I mean, I don’t know. I don’t know if you should be, but why is that such a “should” in your head that you should be when it’s something completely new to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it’s one of the challenges that we face. I don’t want to go as dramatic as to say that it’s a fallacy, but it’s this, you kind of robe yourself with invincibility in a way in order to do dangerous things where you just say I’m as trained as I possibly can be and whenever I jump out of this airplane, there are only so many things I can control, and then you accept it. There’s a level of acceptance where you just say, yes, I might die doing this and then you accept it and then you move. There’s something about that that it becomes this mindset that permeates everything in life. It’s hard for me to acknowledge that I have aspects of transitioning out of the military that are scary to me because I am so used to being the brave one. I’m so used to exemplifying that to the guys that work for me, to embracing that with the work that you do and the processes that you go through. So, to be in a place to where I actually feel like I am being vulnerable and recognizing that in an area of my performance is really hard. It’s super easy for me to be vulnerable about my personal past and being empathetic, and it’s hard to do that in the area of performance because it feels so like you must be a performer, you must do this effectively. There is no other option. I think that that rigidity, honestly, I think it’s pretty stifling in a way to where you’re just willing to be real with who you are and maybe the things that you’re not so good at."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. What’s coming up for me is, how would you define what “performing” – and I’m using quotations – what that is now versus what it was before?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think what’s so hard about it is that what it used to be before, it was very straightforward. It was you need to be able to shoot a gun really well. You need to never be scared. You need to be extremely strong. You need to be smart and reflexive to the needs of the team and doing all those things, and obviously I was far from perfect in executing any of those. I would dare to say that I was good enough. So whenever I look at performance now, you spend your whole time not really being a leader in my field. You influence it a lot, but you are very rarely, truly responsible for the development of other people. It’s almost like being a specialist. You have your area of expertise and you do that thing well. The challenge is that essentially whenever you become a chief in our community, you take on that role where I went from having really a handful of people that worked for me, but they kind of worked in different places and I didn’t really see them a lot, so it wasn’t like that day to day engagement, to becoming a chief, within a couple months taking this new job, and now I have 25 direct reports, half of which I see on a day to day basis. It’s this whole new kind of realm. It’s a realm I’m passionate about, so I feel like I’ve been able to garner a measure of success in it, and I feel like I’ve been able to do a decent job and build some pretty strong relationships, but at the same time, it’s like I don’t have those same rigid tasks. I used to know,” hey, if I can bench press this much and run this fast, then that was success. If I can pass this shooting qualification, then that is success.” Then you show up and it’s like, okay, cool. What does success look like in mentorship? I think that’s strong relationships. I think that’s people being willing to talk to me about their problems, and all of a sudden, it becomes far more nebulous. The military has metrics for everything, but a lot of those metrics have a hard time accurately calculating buy-in or comfortability and communication, those kinds of things. We have like, oh, everyone’s vaccinated, good job, but we don’t have, are your people satisfied? Are you using your people well? Those are the challenges that I now feel responsible for, that whenever we have issues in that people look to me and say, “Okay, Chief, show us how to fix this.” I kind of sit back and then I make my phone calls and I reach out to my mentors and I try to go through it, but there’s not really an operator’s manual like there used to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, there’s not."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All of a sudden, I’m just grappling with – I’m going to do the things that I feel like are my strengths, but I’m also keenly aware that I have a lot of weaknesses, and I think that’s one of those underlying kind of uncertainties. I would even dare to say that they are fears, is that my strengths would be good enough, but my weaknesses essentially would be the things where I fail people. I think that’s the scary thing for me is that I feel like I really care about people and I believe in being an advocate for people. There’s part of me that is very, very afraid that I will fail someone, like a young sailor who is essentially vulnerable and that I won’t protect him from that effectively. So, yeah, I think I just said a lot, but yeah, that’s generally where my brain goes when it comes to performance is how do I, not the organization, how do I define my success in a way that is still good for the organization, but is also good for me?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At this point in the coaching conversation, I had us both pause to take a breath because there’s a lot he had just unpacked. Sometimes you need that moment of pause to digest it all. MICK came in wanting to figure out what’s next on his career path and how to manage his time accordingly, but what he uncovered is that underlying it all is his discomfort in shifting from having concrete tasks that he’s responsible for with measurable outcomes, to the more nebulous work of leading particularly when it comes to his people. Like many who move into leadership roles, he’s looking for something to grasp onto that will make him feel like he’s being successful. But for user, I had a sense there was something a little deeper at play that was causing this discomfort for him. Let’s dive back in as I test out my hypothesis with him. So, first of all, there is no operator manual, as you said, and I’m sorry, I don’t have it either. What that means is huge opportunity for you to define it, for you to define what those metrics are, what it means to have a team that you feel you’ve done good by. So, that’s one. I think the second thing is you talk a lot about, or you’ve mentioned a few times and used the word protecting your people. Again, I don’t have full, full knowledge of being in the military and being deployed, particularly in hardship areas, but I would imagine that what it means to protect someone in those environments really is a life or death situation. So, you’re applying that in your current environment and holding this metric of protection, and I’m curious around your efforts to protect your people versus your efforts to protect your people as a way of protecting yourself from failing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ooh, that one hits pretty hard. I think that’s actually a very interesting way to put it because once again, I think you measure yourself off of performance so rigidly in a career that has very rigid guidelines for performance. Then I’ve transitioned to a place where it’s far more nebulous, and now I think that there is a very real aspect of that, that if I fail someone that not only will I fail that person, but that I will fail and it will be known by others. That feels like a blow to my pride. That feels like me taking a hit to that confidence that I prize so highly. That’s a complex one right there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I mean, there’s a bit of a paradox here, user, because on the one hand based on our conversation so far, I see you as this advocate and champion of others. You used words like, “I want to inspire them,” and when you think about inspiring somebody, it’s about moving them forward. You think about the root word of the word “inspire…” it’s in spirit, like you want to kind of move them forward into something that might not be secure. It’s like, let’s go."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then the paradox to me is the approach that you take, or the posture that you also take is I want to protect them, which protecting is very constricting. It’s actually fear-based. It closes off. It says, “let’s just move within this little area, because if we go there, what might happen?” To me, I think you are at a place of there’s a shift around what is the leadership belief that you want to hold as you move forward into this next stage where it’s off of the battlefield, and as you put it, where you’re sitting now, and then more importantly as you move into this exit stage. Are you leading from a place of fear which can then create kind of a protective type of approach, or are you leading from a place of dare I say, and this is not meant to be religious in any way, but from a place of faith, because when you think about what faith is, it’s the belief in the unknown."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So, it’s funny because I feel like there’s almost, like, a dichotomy going on right there, and I can see it in my relationships. So, one of the other very unique things about where I work is that we have people that are fully qualified, who take a couple of years of extremely hard training, and then they’re able to do this job. Then I have other people that we call candidates who are trying to become that thing. I can see the different perspectives on both sides because with the candidates, kind of my personal quote is serve excellently, suffer well. So, whenever they’re like, “Hey, I’m intimidated by doing this. I’m afraid of doing that,” and I tell them there are only so many opportunities you have to actually suffer well, and this can be one of them if you choose to take it. I believe that. I believe in the growth that can come from that. Then on the flip side the guys who are fully qualified, I feel like a lot of what I spend my time doing is trying to teach them how to protect themselves from all the mistakes that I made. I can definitely see how both of those things are important, but at the same time, how there seems to be almost, like, a friction in regards to being able to consistently do that effectively. I was challenged earlier this week by having to discipline a guy that I looked at and he had gone through some personal issues fairly recently, but then there was a very clear metric of performance that he did not meet. Basically I had to sit him down and give him a hard talking to, and in my head, I saw myself and I was like, “Man, did I coddle this guy because of the personal stuff I knew he was going through? Is that what led to this?” Now I have to be the guy dropping a hammer to be like, “Hey man, if you want to be here, you need to prove it to me.” I got to say, I feel like both of those drives feel very natural and just like they’re just in me. I feel like I’m grappling with how to express those effectively."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think it’s also not only how do you express those effectively, but how do you do that at scale? Because you now have a much larger organization that you’re dealing with. When you feel that friction, when you feel that tension, what I would suggest to you is that it might be a signal that the way you’re defining your role is not quite necessarily what’s needed, or what’s best going to serve the organization or your people or whoever it is you’re dealing with. So, what does that mean? I think it’s really interesting that over the course of a conversation, you have interchangeably used the words being a mentor, or gone back and forth between, “I’m a mentor, that’s who I am,” and “I think I want to coach, but not an executive coach,” cetera. I think it’s really interesting because I think that what you have done for a very long time is mentor others, and mentoring others is about taking your own personal experiences, which you have an amazing story and experience that you bring to the table. Using your experience and what you’ve done well, where you’ve “failed”, in quotation marks, to guide others. So, that’s one, and I think you’ve done that extraordinarily well. Then there’s being a coach as a manager. Let’s not even talk about coaching the way I do it, but a coach is a manager. As a coach, as a manager, what you’re doing is creating the conditions and holding the space so that your people can learn what it is that it’s going to take for them to be able to succeed. So, it’s not about your story. It’s not about, “This is what worked for me. This is what I did therefore,” or “This is how it happened to me, and now I’m concerned that’s what’s going to happen to you.” It’s about being able to see the person for where they are, and then being able to say, “Okay, this is where you are. Where do you want to go? What choices do you have in front of you? Let me help you figure out what the different paths are that you can take, what the different decisions are that you can make, the different strategies you can take. Let me show you the different ways of doing something, but ultimately the responsibility lies with you.” So there’s a bit of, I think, as you scale in leadership, being responsible for coaching your people, but not feeling so responsible to the outcome that it then moves you into this protective mechanism."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ooh, this is the first time in this conversation where I’ve actually felt uncomfortable. So, thank you for that. I mean, I think you’re right. I think that’s what makes that so hard. I think that in my early career, I felt very vulnerable. I ran into some significant issues right after I finished our very hard training pipeline. Then I had leaders that I felt were not as protective as they should be, and a big part of that was my naivety of youth and not understanding the organization, not understanding the values that they were trying to instill in me, but it left a very indelible mark on the way that I wanted to make people feel. I think that’s one of the challenges that I think that I might face is that I’ve had a lot of people tell me that I’m very in tune with my emotions, and I think the challenge with that is that that’s not really the military way. That’s not a normal and really popular approach in many ways, and so I know that sometimes I wonder if I feel too much and it kind of triggers that protective instinct to where I want to be able to shield someone from that suffering that is actually a healthy part of growth. I guess I’m struggling with how to establish I guess, a definition or a boundary in regards to that and what that would look like. I don’t know if that’s me trying to be more introspective about when I’m feeling emotionally triggered by something, or if maybe there’s more of a generalized rule for the road."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I don’t think there’s a generalized rule for the road."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I do think that what you’ve hit on is how do I establish a boundary? The boundary is really not for the other. The boundary is not, let me place a boundary so that my team members don’t have any more problems or don’t come to me with problems. I’m only going to make, like, one office hour a week. Therefore, if it doesn’t fit in that office hour, I won’t get any more of these things that I have to deal with. The boundary is really not on the other. The boundary is on yourself and how much do you actually need to give to feel like you’re supporting them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the easy answer is everything. That’s the hard thing. That is one of the greatest things about the military and also one of the hardest things about the military is that there is a feeling of as, as Jocko Willink likes to put it, “extreme ownership,” that the best leaders engage their people in a holistic perspective, and you can see that become a very toxic sort of approach that is stifling and overwhelming and inappropriate, but you also see that with really great leaders where they genuinely care about the lives, the entire lives of their people. I think that that’s the challenge, is that whenever you are a people person, like myself, you want to be engaged in those things. You want to have a pulse on those things, because I know how that’s going to affect their work, and I also know that’s going to affect how I put them in positions of stress. Sometimes I think that I’m too sensitive in that. That I see something going on and I say, “Oh man, let’s stop everything to try to deal with this thing, even though, one, it’s not my specialty and two, it’s realistically probably something that’ll buff out if I just allowed them the space and the time and the empowerment with resources to deal with it on their own.” It’s like being a helicopter parent. I feel like that’s what I’m doing in some of these situations where I’m like, “Okay, I’ve got you,” and it’s like, “Man, let that little bird fly.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right. Exactly. It’s not a one or the other, actually. It’s trying to be all those things and situationally figuring out what does this particular situation need from me at this time? Does it require me to helicopter or does it require me to take a step back and let them fly? The way you make that decision is because you are so vested in terms of the growth of your people, what is going to best serve them in their growth, which might not necessarily be what best serves them in the short term and also may not what necessarily be what serves you in the short term of your desire to help relieve the sufferer."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think in kind of a subtle way, when I look at people, there’s part of me that maybe catastrophizes where they’re at almost as, like, a protective mechanism so that I’m not shocked and surprised again, even though I know, realistically, there’s only so much that you can do for that. I know the equation, but it’s still, like, this emotional underpinning that if I fail at this thing, that not only could it be bad, it could be terrible. Honestly, I mean, realistically, that’s what we do in the military. Every plan that we make is based off of the worst possible outcome, and then we plan for that and we train for that, and then most of the time it doesn’t happen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What I’m suggesting is that as you lead to think about are there other ways you can lead over and beyond the protective approach that you’ve taken so far. That is one approach. It’s not to get rid of it. It’s not to get rid of it. It’s more so that it has worked for you because of the culture that you’ve been in, because that tends to be the predominant way of doing things, and now that you’re leading at the scale that you’re at now, as well as when you move forward, post your military career, there are other approaches that can amplify your objective, which is to inspire, motivate, grow people. What’s clear to me is you are somebody that is driven by purpose. So if you could start thinking about what are other ways that you can lead that support this overarching purpose of growing your people over and beyond leading by protection, what would that look like? We could do that right now. If I had to say, hey, you have multiple muscles, leadership muscles, one of them is leading by protecting, fill in the blank, what are other ways that you could lead by?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Challenging. That’s the first one that comes to my mind is giving guys challenges to overcome. That’s the biggest one. Actually, that is absolutely the biggest one. I feel like that’s always what made me feel like I thrived was overcoming some sort of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What would that require of you to be able to lead in that way? How would it look different in terms of how you approach things than the way you do now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I would have to more clearly articulate goals. I think one of the easy ways of leading by protection is that sometimes it’s kind of hard to see what right looks like, but it’s really easy to see what wrong looks like. So, protecting is preventing what’s wrong. Whereas, looking at what right looks like – well, I mean, there’s all kinds of metrics that you can formulate for that, but I think that that’s what I would see the challenging is: “Hey, I believe that you’re weak in this area,” whether that’s physical fitness or medical knowledge or whatever, or even more of the softer skills that guys don’t really appreciate early in their careers, like public speaking or networking, and then drawing those guys into those situations that would allow. That would take more time and more intention from me. Although I know that I could do it. I know that could do it well, but it’s almost like having one perspective that is overarching, that protective side, and then being intentional about shifting that to the other, the challenging approach, that actually determines in my mind how I spend my time during my day. Which honestly… I mean, going back to the whole purpose thing – I mean, I can see how that would also be more consistently fulfilling because whenever you’re trying to always protect, honestly, you’re always looking for somebody to fight. You’re always looking for somebody to step out of line so that you can go in and fix a problem. I don’t think that’s really the most healthy long term strategy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. So, we’ve talked about things at a number of levels, and I know you came in with the question of almost like, “what do I say yes to, and what do I say no to,” right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m going to be honest with you, what I thought we were going to get to was like, “oh, well, what’s on your plate? What should you be saying yes to? What should you be saying no to?” I think where we’ve landed is what you need to be saying yes to are other approaches to leading and other paths to achieving this vision of success that you have for yourself in terms of the impact that you want to have on your people. What you need to say no to is only being kind of a one-note in terms of the way that you can make that impact."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think one of the things that I wrestle with is that at the 15-year mark in the military, you’ve done a lot. A lot of the guys that work for me are far more junior, usually about a decade at least at a minimum my junior. So, I think I look back at my story and the greatest challenges were all the personal ones. Like, what does it look like to try to figure out if you’re going to get a divorce or not? What does it look like to have people close to you pass away? It’s almost like I take that my perspective of being a seasoned guy, and then I apply it to someone that not only doesn’t even know what those stressors are at that point, it’s almost like presenting people with things that they should be afraid of. It’s like, ah, that only goes so far."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Look, here’s the thing. I’m going to share something. I love to work out and it’s an outlet for me. I enjoy it. Unlike a lot of people who see it as a chore, I find a lot of passion. I remember I used to spend a lot of time trying to convince my friends that they should do the same and I would list all the reasons. Probably one of the wisest people in my life, and the person who challenges me probably the most of my life, i.e., my husband, once said to me, “Did it ever occur to you that they might just not want to do it? That, like, all that passion that you have, keep it for yourself. You do it.” I was like, “Why? Why? Why is that the case?” So, I’m joking about it, but here’s the thing, your work is your work. As you said, your work is your work. Your experience is your experience. Does it inform you in terms of how you are with your people? Absolutely, but you’ve got to let their work be their work, their path be their path. What you can do is stand right next to them as they go through it, as they go through their challenges. You can guide, you can coach, you can mentor, and it’s still their work, their challenge, their path to go through. That’s the difference. That actually is a huge distinction between being the doer and being the leader. In your case, usually when we’re talking about this, we’re talking about like delegating tasks. Like, oh, you need to stop doing the task. You need to sort of lift up. In your case, the task is around them being able to get through these challenges. So, you’ve got to lift from being a doer in terms of almost like doing the emotional work for them –"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh man, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "– of the challenges and more being a leader around that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Man, I’m going to write that down. “Don’t do the emotional work.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I think we can bring this to a close, but I’d love to hear in the simplest way possible for you what your key takeaways are and what you’re leaving the conversation with."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say that it is a need to move from a fear-based mentality to a more faith-based because that really aligns with the direction that we’re trying to take this, to go from that protective approach to a more challenging approach, and then also aligning my future vision, the one that I’m driving towards in five years and then recognizing that with that vision in mind, I can then make those tactical level decisions and be more consistent with them in order to actually reach that vision well. Honestly, I think that’s really how I would sum all this up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Very good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thanks, Muriel. I cannot express to you how valuable this time has been for me. I really appreciate"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good. Good. I’m really glad, really glad. When user reached out for coaching, he wanted to work through what he does next after his military career. But as we got into the coaching session, he realized that the real work starts now before he even takes that next step. His work is not just tactical in terms of what practical steps he needs to take. It’s also an inside job of realigning, his perspective and approach to better support the purpose that he has of helping others. My coaching conversation with user went deeper than most clients on this show. Why? Because my job is to meet my clients where they are and help them see what paths they can take to move forward from there. But let me be clear, coaching is not therapy, and while user, like many of my clients, brought a whole lifetime of experiences to the coaching, some of them traumatic, it’s not my role to dig into those experiences and help my clients make sense of them, and in some cases heal from them. Rather, my work is to help user see where he is now and where he wants to be in the future, and make the bridge between the two with as much ease as possible. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders, and that’s a wrap on this season as well. We’re taking a break over the summer and I’ll be back with more episodes this fall. In the meantime, stay in touch by joining me and many others at my Coaching Real Leaders, community, where I host live discussions to unpack the coaching sessions you hear on this show. You can join at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find me in my newsletter on LinkedIn @MurielWilkins. Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe; sound editor, Nate Crnko; music composer, Brian Campbell; my assistant, Emily Sofa; and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations, and to you, our listeners, who share in their journeys. If you are dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show next season. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. Of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward. Share it with your friends, subscribe and leave a review wherever you get your podcast. From HBR Presents, I’m coach AI. Until next time, may you be well."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "He’s a self-professed “natural finance guy” and has shown himself to be invaluable to his company. His long-term goal is to become a CFO, but he’s gotten little feedback on what to do  to get to the executive level. Now he’s starting to feel stuck in middle management. Host Muriel Wilkins coaches him through managing his career, even when the plan isn’t always clear."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call user to protect his confidentiality. He’s worked in finance at a major company where he’s been for over a decade. He’s a self-professed very natural finance guy."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My long-term goal is to be a CFO over the five- to 10-year period of time. And I knew in order to get there, I need to start from somewhere and make my way up from there. So, when I joined this business three, four years ago, I had update conversation with my manager that, “Hey, even though I’m joining for a different role, but the role which I’m doing now, that’s the kind of role which I always want to go.” So, the moment that opportunity came up, I immediately grabbed onto it. I had a good conversation with my manager. Of course, we went through the formal interview process with my current GM and with the HR, but I’m glad that everything fell in place and I was put on the board to lead this role."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user has now been leading a team within the broader business for a few years, and he’s responsible for hitting major revenue targets. So far, managing his career progression has worked out relatively well, but now he’s starting to feel a bit stuck."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I think of my roles and responsibilities, it was an upward move for sure, because I have more exposure and I’m delivering a number to the company. But in terms of my title, it was a lateral move. And I’ve been on that title for the last six, seven years now. And I’ve been pushing to get to the middle management, I would say, in the organization hierarchy. So, if I try to put myself right now, I am somewhere between the lower to middle of the middle management. I’m trying to push myself more into the middle or the upper middle management, more into the executive level, I would say."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user is facing an issue that many in middle management face, where the opportunities to take on more responsibilities in your current role or through a lateral move are plentiful, but the upward path to a more senior role seems less clear. Let’s jump into the coaching session now, as I ask user how he’s tried to push himself to the next level and what he thinks is holding him back from getting there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There could be many reasons. I mean, I’ve been pushing, Muriel, to get to the executive level. Even though I get excellent feedback all the time, but I feel like that’s not getting translated somehow into my upward move. Now, why it’s not getting translated, there could be one or two very specific skills, which somebody should have to get to the executive level, which probably I may not have, but I feel like I’m not getting those clear and direct feedback that, “Hey, user, you need to do X, Y, Z to get to the executive level.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So, what I’m hearing is you have had a pretty successful career. You were moved into this role or took opportunity to take this role, which you see as a stepping stone for your longer term aspiration of being a more general CFO, a broader CFO. When you took this opportunity, it was a lateral move from a title perspective, but the responsibility and the scope of the role was broader than the type of responsibility and scope that you had previously."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And so at this point, your desire is to have a promotion in title that is commensurate with what you see as the role and responsibility that would position you for more of the executive level?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. And the other thing we can also add is that it may not be this role which I should be entitled to get to the executive role, it may be another role which much more better, bigger exposure, much more wider responsibilities, which can take me there. So, what I just clearly need to know is, what is that path? What does that path look like? What do I need to do X, Y, Z, A, B, C to get there? And then if tomorrow, if any similar role opens up, would I be fit for that role? Or what else do I need to do in current role so that whenever in the future that role opens up, my management feels that, Yes, user has delivered all these things to the business, and he’s a right fit for that role, and let’s put him on the path for the promotion’?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, I just want to make sure that we understand what the question is. Well, let me ask you, if you were to frame this as a question, what would be the question?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, my question would be, what do I need to do to get to the promotion in the management hierarchy, to get to the executive level?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right, so we have some focus now. So, let me ask you this, have you been considered for positions that would have gotten you promoted?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You don’t think so, or you don’t know?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And what makes you not think so?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just because my management never spoke with me on those positions. I mean, I would say if I go back last one year, there have been a couple of positions which got opened up at the executive level, but my management never asked me that, “Hey user, are you interested to take over that position?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, they never asked you. How did you approach those open opportunities?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I honestly did not approach those opportunities because maybe somehow, I thought in the heart of my heart that even though I may go and talk about it, I may get an answer as, “no.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So… what stopped you from pursuing those opportunities that were open, that you saw potentially could be the types of opportunities that if somebody else had presented you for, you would’ve been a good candidate for, but what I’m hearing you say is you didn’t present yourself because you thought if you presented yourself, you might get a “no”?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And now I’m kind of thinking about it more. The two opportunities which opened up, they were not in a place where I wanted to be, in terms of the city. They were completely at a different location. Also, considering about my family and everything, I intentionally didn’t pursue too much about those roles, if you know what I mean. I was interested in those roles, but then I felt that I’m not really interested in moving to those cities, so I did not push myself for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, the only thing I want to highlight is your level of interest may help inform others’ interest in helping and supporting you. It may or it may not. What I think would be helpful to explore is, when there are opportunities that open up, that you are interested in, what do you do to advocate for yourself for those opportunities, and what are your expectations of others? Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what would have happened if they had actually suggested that you pursue one of those opportunities? What would have happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think would have more enthusiastic pursuing those. And I may have tried to come up with some alternatives on which I was holding myself back. I may have come up with some alternatives or situations where I would’ve said, “Okay, if that’s a bigger picture, if that’s where I want to move, what can I do? What alternatives I can bring in, which can help me to get to that position?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, what I’m not understanding though is on the one hand you’re saying, “I didn’t pursue those opportunities because you know what? Quite frankly, location wise, it wasn’t ideal. So, I didn’t even want to put myself in front of it because it’s probably not something I would want to do. But if somebody else thinks it’s a good idea, then yeah, I might be more excited about doing it.” And I’m curious, what’s the difference? Why does it matter if somebody is excited about it versus you being excited about it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s a good point. Maybe I can also add is maybe somehow, somewhere, maybe 10% or 20%, I had a fear of getting the answer “no” and then getting demotivated about it; meaning, if I would have approached to my management like, “Hey, I want to approach for that role, that role fits me, and that’s where I want to be, that’s what my aspiration is,” and I felt that there would be a greater probability of getting an answer no, then it could have demotivated me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And maybe what could have also happened is, “Oh, you know what? Okay, let’s see what happens. Let’s put you in the pipeline and see if it works out.” We don’t know. We don’t know. I’m not saying that’s what would’ve happened, but we actually don’t know. What we do know is that where you are now is exactly where you would be if you had gone and they had said no. You would’ve ended up right back where you are now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got it, got it. So, I feel like if I’m hearing you, you are suggesting that I should speak up; meaning, I should go put forward my thoughts, irrespective of the answer, and then see where that discussion leads to?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, I��m not suggesting anything, I’m just laying out to you what the possible outcomes could be, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And one of those routes could be exactly what you just said, because inherent in what you were sharing before is, it sounds like you think that you could be a fit for a type of promotion, but you haven’t gotten any type of external feedback to check against that assumption. That’s what you haven’t gotten. What I haven’t heard you say is that nobody has said to you… I mean correct me if I’m wrong, but it doesn’t sound like anybody has said to you, “Don’t put yourself forward for any promotions.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s a difference between the two, and I think you’ve shut down one avenue… as a result of something completely different that’s happening. So, do you go down that path of, “Hey, maybe I should put myself forward and see what happens?” I don’t know. I mean ultimately, it’s up to you. All we’re doing right now is saying, what other paths do you have beyond what’s happening right now, which is waiting for somebody to approach you and say, “Hey user, here you go”? On a silver platter, “Here’s the promotion you’ve been waiting for.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, no, that’s right. Understood."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s pause here for a moment to gauge what’s happening. user came into the conversation wanting me to tell him specifically what to do, but what’s more important is for him to gain clarity on the options he has in front of him. That’s why as I coach user, I spend time helping him tease out the different paths he can take. This is to help him move from focusing on “Why isn’t this career advancement happening” to “What are ways I can make this happen?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s jump back into the conversation, as I walk him through what-if scenarios as a way for him to see what’s possible beyond his current situation. Let’s say an opportunity came up next week, and you had choices in front of you. One choice is, “I’m not going to do anything. I’m going to wait to see if they call me.” Okay, that’s what you’ve done. The other choice is, “I’m going to,” as you put it, “speak up for myself,” or we think about it as “advocate for myself,” and “raise my hand. Raise my hand that this is something I want to put my name forward with.” So, let’s play out that scenario."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What could possibly happen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I would say I will go with a latter scenario, that I will raise my hand, and I will go and present myself for that position, and I would also build a case around it, like why I think I’m fit for that position with all the point by point, kind of like my profile with my background and why I’m fit for that role. Also, I can also throw in a couple of points where I feel that there may be some development needs which may be required for that role, and this is what my plan is to immediately get to the learning curve of that role. But yeah, so to answer your question is, I would go with that approach, put my best foot forward, and then see whatever the result happens, it happens. At the end of the day, if the answer is no, then I’m back to what I’m working even currently, so no changes, but at least… I have presented myself, I have created some noise, and maybe now my management and maybe HR or other people would know that “user wants to pursue those type of positions, and let’s keep him in mind, and let’s work on his development needs to get up there.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, absolutely. So, as you said, there are two options. You can go, they can say no, and at least now they know, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You can go, they can say yes, and you get it. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If they say no, not only do they know, it also leaves an opening to then seek the very thing that we started this conversation with, which is, “Okay, so what’s missing?” Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "“Can you please give me some feedback around what is it that I don’t have that would have positioned me well for this particular promotion?” And it creates an opening. Do you get it? Maybe. We don’t know, but at least it creates an opening. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it makes sense. It makes sense."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what’s important here, that I’m hearing, is this sense of advocating for yourself… rather than waiting for somebody to advocate for you. That’s not to say that somebody advocating for you wouldn’t be nice. Absolutely, it would. In fact, have you had anyone advocate for you, which is usually what we call having a sponsor? Have you had sponsors?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, that’s a really, really great point, Muriel, you mentioned, is I feel that’s another reason, which is kind of holding me back, is that our overall company has been through a lot of restructuring and reorganization lately, over the last few years, and I have lost a lot of my sponsors in the company. So, to your point, in the past, yes, my sponsors have spoken for me. A couple of my sponsors, they pulled me as their business leader to run the business for them. But where I stand today, and if I look back over the last 10 plus years I’ve been with the company, almost 90 to 95% of my sponsors and colleagues, I have lost. They are no more there with the company. So that’s why for me, it has been kind of like it restarting my whole life with the same company all over again, building the new relationship with the colleagues, finding a new sponsor, finding the great business partners who can speak for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where do you feel you are in cultivating those new sponsored relationships?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I’m doing very well. I’m doing very well. And this was kind of the role which I had needed because I have the team, I have the GM, who I report into. I feel like it may be just a matter of time to get there and then continue to hold my position and continue to deliver what the business needs from me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, what we’re talking about is really having a parallel path, advocating for yourself and having others who advocate for you in the form of sponsors. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It makes sense."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’ve well-articulated that you have had sponsors, but because of the changes in the company, that has dropped off, and you’re now in the process of rebuilding. Which mean, if you’re under… We can talk kind of finance terms with you, if you’re under indexing on others advocating for you, where do you need to be in advocating for yourself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Even much more higher."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right. You need to be over indexing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Over indexing. Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay? More so than you normally would. And so, what I’m interested in is what is your regular baseline, normally would, right? What’s your normal baseline of advocating for yourself? What does that look like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say it’s pretty decent. I over pitch myself. In the over pitch, what I mean is, whenever I see some sort of an opportunity to help a business on something or to take some sort of an initiative, I quickly assess what that need is, what that problem statement we are trying to solve for, and I’m usually one of the people who will raise their hand like, “Hey, this is something which I can do and I can help on.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So that is advocating for yourself on behalf of the business?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, on behalf of the business. Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And so how do you do in advocating for yourself on behalf of yourself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, help me with a couple of examples, please, if I… Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. So, you just said, “Hey, I see a business need. There’s an opportunity, something needs to be done. I think there would be an improvement.” I raise my hand and I say, “Hey, here’s the need. I can help this need. Here’s how I would help. Let me do it.” Okay? That’s advocating. Yes, you’re doing it. You’re identifying a need, and the result is it will help the business."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. What I’m asking is, how do you use those same skills to help user’s career?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, the skills which I develop is, as I’m solving those problems for the business, either I make some new relationships or I collaborate more. And if there is a more compelling need at that point for the business, and I am solving for them, then I get the appreciation, and then I put my name again in the hat, “user is one of those person who is always proactive and always ready to help.” And that puts me a little bit more forward than the rest of my crew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. What it strikes me as is we talk about the notion of letting the work speak for itself. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You do good work and that reflects on user. And if you do the good work and you show the results, then that puts user a little bit further along the line, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, the work does speak for itself, but the work doesn’t always tell the full story. And I think the missing part here is, what part of the story do you need to tell? And what I’m curious about is, what conversations have you had or not had that are explicitly about what it is that you want for your career next?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the conversation which I have not had is again, To get to that executive level, which I am aiming for, what do I need to do? What are my stepping stones to get there? Is it my current role will lead me to there? If I continue to deliver in my current role, will that lead me there one day? Or if not, then maybe have some sort of a session with my manager, with my HR maybe, is, What could be the other things I could be doing to position myself to get there?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what’s to hold you back from having that conversation with HR or with your manager?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I did have that conversation earlier this year, as we were doing the performance evaluation of last year. So, I kick started that conversation again with my manager. And again, I didn’t get any clear answer or the feedback as to what those things should be to get me there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you get?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That they are presenting me, that they are putting my name out there, and I need to continue to do what I’m doing, and let’s wait for the future."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean I’m kind of rethinking now, it’s been a few months now, but those were just those couple of sentences of the answers I got is, I’m being presented and I need to continue to do what I’m doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And how many data points did you get around? Is that one person who said that to you? Your manager, is it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, my manager, and I did try to talk with my HR, but I didn’t get the clear answer. They told me to talk to my manager."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They told you to talk to your… Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, they can’t reveal too many things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. This is helpful because it sounds like you’re getting a bit of a vague response."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that’s exactly what I’m getting to – is that I keep getting these vague responses. Where it’ll be really helpful for me to get very discreet and specific things, “These are the two, three things that need to be done”, or “It may take a few years down the line,” so that I can manage my whole thing around that rather than sitting myself and holding it, why it’s not happening,"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, why it’s not happening. And the backdrop around that is how you’ve performed, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because what we’ve been talking about is your potential and how do you fulfill the potential that you believe you have, and you’re looking for that direct path. What we haven’t talked about is what’s your current performance? So, the backdrop, you mentioned that some of these conversations have happened during performance review. What is the state of your performance? How are you seen currently in your role in terms of how you’re rated performance-wise?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I got the second best rating, if I can say it that way. There are four or five levels of ratings. So I got the second best rating."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And do you have a sense from a promotion standpoint how the rate… I know it’s not only ratings, but what one expects to… see in a promotional candidate from a readiness standpoint?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I didn’t get the clear answers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. All right. So, you’re not getting clear answers. So, usually, when we think about somebody who is… And I don’t have the clear answer either, because I’m not in your organization, and I would be using a crystal ball to tell you this is exactly what it is, okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because there’s a couple of sides to it. On the one hand, it could be, are the opportunities actually there? That’s what we’ve talked about. If you see an opportunity, then you should at least present yourself for it and see what happens. The other is, are you being seen as somebody who is ready to pursue those opportunities?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, a helpful way to think about promotion readiness is against two variables – and I’m not the one who made this up. This is sort of what’s behind what’s called the “nine block for talent management.” The first question is, how do you, user, perform currently? How do you perform against your current role? Low, medium, high. And then the second question is, to what extent do you demonstrate future potential? And future potential of what? We have to define what that potential is. What are we talking about? In this case, probably the executive level. And all we know right now is where you are in terms of current performance. But those who are seen as ready for promotion are usually the ones who index high on both of those variables. So, they’re knocking it out of the park, current performance, and they demonstrate at a high-level, future potential for the next level. And depending where they are on the other areas, then we can… Are there areas that you need to develop? And I think what you’re asking is, “Hey, I’m doing pretty good on the current performance. I’m not quite sure if I’m demonstrating future potential. I think I’m high, but I’m not sure because I don’t know how you’re defining future potential. And if you could tell me if I’m low or medium, then at least then I know what the gaps are to fill.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it makes sense. I think you’ve framed it very well here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And to complicate matters, you’re going and asking your manager, and you’re not getting a clear response. You’re going and asking HR, they’re not giving you a clear response. And what are you attributing to the fact that they’re not giving you a clear response? Why do you think they’re not giving you a clear response?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It could be that there are not many opportunities at executive level, what it used to be even few years ago. I mean, unfortunately they are [inaudible 00:26:20] a lot. Businesses have shrunk a lot. The executive level people are not moving around much, so that you know if they are not moving around, they’re not creating the spaces for the other folks to move up or move around. So, I feel like there is not enough opportunities at the organizational level, hence, I’m not getting the clear answer. The other thing would be is that if they give me the clear answer that, “Hey, user, let’s do these couple of things,” or for example, “You need another two, three years to get there,” where we are in terms of the whole economy or the environment right now, where a lot of people are leaving the organizations and moving on with other organizations, they may have the similar fear that, Hey, if we give user a clear answer like, ‘Hey, he needs to wait for another couple of years,’ maybe we’ll lose him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm. So, this is the situation, all right? You don’t have the answer. You could go seek the answer from others; meaning mentors, the sponsors that you’re cultivating. And they might be able to give you some idea. But right now, all we know is you don’t have the answer. We don’t really know exactly why. I think all the reasons you stated are very plausible. And there are probably other reasons. I mean, maybe it was a trick question that I said, why do you think? Because we might know the reason, and actually, it doesn’t really matter because you’re not getting an answer. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, the real question is, what do you do without an answer? And so I just want us to kind of imagine. Let’s say you didn’t get an answer for the next six months, what would you do differently than you’re doing now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I may push myself if there are more opportunities, if I can find someone else within the company who can be a sponsor of me to put in that position, which I believe is going to be very difficult because I think I have tried that, since a lot of things have changed in the company, and I don’t have those relationships outside of my small organization, which I lead in. So, it may be very difficult. But then for me is if I don’t get that clear answer, then I may start seeking job opportunities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, here’s the thing, you have a question and you want an answer. You’re not getting the answer that you want, which is basically, because you’re not getting any answer. So, either nothing changes and you just keep on doing what you’ve been doing, which is waiting for the answer to your question, hoping that it happens. And it might and it might not, but you wait. That’s what option number one."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Option number two is you change the question. And changing the question might be changing from, “How do I position myself or ready myself for the promotion, or what makes me promotable” to “How do I continue to do this job as effectively as I can? You told me I need to keep doing what I’m doing. Okay, what does that look like?” That’s just one, but you changed the question. Option number three is you change the answer that you’re seeking, or you give yourself your own answer, which is what you were just talking about."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, I think the path here is starting to create scenarios for yourself so that you can, in a sense, sort of take back some power, some control around your career management in response to what you’re getting right now. And I think the decision path is, do you wait? Do you continue pushing for this feedback that you’re seeking and wait, which is fine, that’s completely up to you, or do you say, “Okay, I might wait ‘til X period of time and then I’m going to take a different move”? It’s not a move that’s waiting. It’s a different move. And what could those moves be? Those are the two options."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. It makes sense to me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. In what way does it make sense to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It helps me kind of develop a more timeline around my career path and approach with more clear sense of direction, like these are the one or two things I need to be talking with my manager next time, try to get some more clear answer, a path which can take me there. And if I’m not getting the right answers or the clear answers, if I’m not getting the clear direction, maybe I wait for some time. And if that trend continues for quite some time, then I go with my next option, which is to move."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, look, at the end of the day, for me, it has no bearing on me whether you stay or you move or you do. What I am seeing is you shifting from a passive recipient of what happens in your career, to taking a more active approach in advocating for yourself. And advocating for yourself doesn’t always need to be, “Hey, I’m putting myself up for promotion.” Not that there’s anything wrong with that, and obviously I would want you to do that, too. But advocating for yourself is saying, “Okay, let me go ask for that feedback. I’m not getting that feedback, then what’s the next move?” Or “I’m not going to make the next move, I’m going to stay and I’m going to wait, but I know why I’m doing it.” As long as there’s a purpose behind it and it’s your purpose, nobody can take that away from you. That’s your purpose. As long as you know the reason why you’re waiting for the feedback or you’re not waiting for the feedback. It’s your purpose. And once you have a strong sense of what that is and that’s what’s driving you, that’s a very different stance than waiting for somebody to give you the direction. You are the one – and I’m pointing at you. You provide the direction. This is a critical shift for user. He starts seeing that it’s his choice whether he manages his career as a passive recipient waiting for what he needs, or if he actively manages his career by advocating for what he needs and driving the process. Which stance he chooses, informs which actions will follow. Let’s dive back in as user realizes how his approach so far has impacted him and what he wants to do differently moving forward."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I do have a defined purpose what I want to do, where do I want to go, but also, again, to your point, I think I have been very passive in my approach; not sharing my purpose with my manager or with my HR or with my management, not being very clear to them, not being very specific to them like, “Hey, this is what I need. This is where I need their help on.” That could be one of the reason why I’m not getting a clear answer back from them because they may not be seeing a defined purpose."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It could be, right? I mean, I wasn’t in a room with you when you asked for the feedback, but I would question, did you frame it as the reason why you’re asking for the feedback is because this is your longer term goal and you’re managing your career and you want to do it with clarity and you’re committed to the organization and you would like to see it come to fruition in this organization, therefore, you’re looking for, to the extent possible, some clarity around what are the two or three things that they think, not guarantee, but would position you for an opportunity if and when an opportunity came about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And here’s the thing, user, you have the skill to do it because you shared with me, this is what you do when you see an opportunity for the business. And I’m saying treat yourself like the business. Position yourself as to one where there’s a need and a goal, and what you’re trying to get clarity on is, how do we get from where you are in current state to the goal, okay? No different than a gap analysis that I know you’re an expert in doing from a finance standpoint."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I like what you just exactly said. Treat yourself like a business. I’ve been advocating of working a lot for my business, but am I doing the same thing for myself? And I think the way you just mentioned, I treat myself as just like my business, and I think I need to work more for me as well too, so that I can advocate myself and I can present myself that way, and I can go with a defined purpose and go with more clarity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right. And as a business, you can then make strategic choices. Again, I’m leveraging the fact that you’re in finance, so you know, one of the decisions is when do we stay and we grow and we cultivate it because it’s a cash cow, and when do we divest? Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I’m glad you’re using that financial jargon, so it’s easy for me to relate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I listened a little bit in finance class. All right. Okay. Now… here’s the thing, I think when you do that, whether you get the feedback and the clarity that you’re looking for or you don’t, either way, the next question will become, can you fulfill the potential that you see for yourself in the context that you’re in? Meaning, in the organization that you’re in, the business that you’re in. Sometimes, it’s in the industry that I’m in. And that’s a reality check."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, if I’m understanding your question, Muriel, correctly, are you saying that if I don’t get the clear answer, or if I don’t get to where I want to go, but the purpose or where I want to go, can I fulfill that purpose somewhere else?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. That’s subsequent. If you can’t do it here, then I mean, then you know it has to be somewhere else. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Can I do it somewhere else?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. But I think most people start with, Oh, can I do it somewhere else? What I’m suggesting to you because of the track record that you’ve had is have you asked yourself the question of, Is it possible to do here? And we can go back to the metaphor of a business. It’s just like if you were starting a new business within the company that you work in. There would be a question, “Should we actually start this business within this company, or do we need to spin off… because the conditions that are in place here are not the conditions that would support the success of this new business?” So, what I’m asking is, are the conditions that are in place at the organization in which you’re in now, the ones that are actually going to be the conditions that help you meet your goal?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got it. So, then that reality check would mean is continually assess myself in terms of the skills being fit for that role, in terms of that development needs and all those type of things?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. And I think when you’re doing that, again, you’re taking the driver’s seat rather than waiting for the conditions to fall in place… magically. So, that’s the skill building development."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then there’s the other side that you said, which is “Do people see it?” That’s the part around you taking action to make sure that people see it. Are you visible? Are you sharing what you’ve done? Are you giving line of sight to the impact that you’re having? Are others able to see you in a way where you can demonstrate the abilities to operate at the level of your manager? Because you can do all the work, and if it’s not visible to anyone, then it’s like the tree that falls in the forest. If nobody’s around to hear it, did it really fall?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got it. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s the everlasting existential question, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. No, absolutely. Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, if we look at those two sides, the, Okay, maybe I’m not getting some feedback from here, but maybe I can go get it. So, that’s one. “Let me do my own self-assessment.” And then also, Do others see it? What work do you feel, or what steps do you think you need to take on both sides of that equation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "One, I can go and talk to my peers, my colleagues, who have been working with my manager for a while and who have been working with me as well. So, I can go and ask them this question. And for example, “Just tell me one thing which you see in my manager, but you don’t see in me. And then you would believe, if I can work on that piece, that will really help me to get up there.” So, that way if I can do a quick interview/assessment, maybe few of my peers and colleagues, then that way, I’ll be getting more very realistic feedback from the people whom I have worked with, and they also know my manager, and they will be in the best place to tell me very specifically what needs to be done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, that’s on the, “Let me do my own assessment.” Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then how about on the visibility piece? What do you think you could do there that you’re not doing right now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe just take some more high-profile problem statements, areas which business is going through with, raising my hand more enough, taking some more risk, taking those problems which other people don’t want to take up and solve the problems for the business, and then raising my hand and going and solving for it, that will help me create more visibility."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, one path, which you’re already it sounds like expert at doing is kind of raising your hand to do the work, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I think the answer… I’m trying to kind of connect the two is to your point, I’m very good in raising my hand, but I raise my hand when I feel that yes, there is a problem which I can solve for that’s easily manageable. I think I’m not raising my hand when there is a bigger problem, and if I solve for it, it will help me create a big visibility."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe to frame it another way is, I’m raising my hand within my comfort zone; meaning like, “What will it take to do this activity? Maybe a couple of hours. Do I have couple of hours in the week? Yes. Okay, let’s raise my hand.” However, if there is some activity which may take five or 10 hours to do it, and I don’t have that time because I’m in my comfort zone, I think I need to come out of my comfort zone and raise a hand to go and do that thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Because if you stay in your comfort zone, guess where people are going to see you? In your comfort zone."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In that comfort zone. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. If you want to be seen as an executive, you’ve got to go do some executive things. Okay? All right? I mean, a few people still get seen as executive, but for most of us… For me to have to be seen as a coach when I first started coaching, I had to go coach."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I couldn’t just sit and hope to be a coach, and then I couldn’t just tell people that I want to be a coach. I then had to actually go coach. And nobody gave it to me. I had to go create coaching opportunities so I could coach, and then people started seeing me as a coach. So, for you, there’s really a theme here. The theme is about creating the opportunities for you, creating the discussions that need to happen for you, creating the avenue to get the feedback for yourself rather than waiting for those things to happen. And I want to acknowledge… I don’t want to be dismissive. In an ideal world, yes, those things should be happening. It would be lovely. And I would love for all people to be in situations where they are getting very concrete feedback from their manager and HR that gives them very clear direction on what their career path is from going A to B. The reality of it is, it doesn’t always happen. And so what do we do in those situations? Do we just wait in the wallow of it not happening? Or do we say, “Okay, it’s not happening, and then what? What do I do now?” Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that’s really about having a sense of driving your own career until somebody else, maybe it’s a new sponsor, maybe it’s new boss, maybe it’s whoever, comes along and says, “Oh, you know what? I’ll help you drive.” Okay? But when they take their hands off the wheel, you’ve got to keep your hand on the wheel. Not all hands off the wheel. I think right now what’s happened is all hands are off the wheel. So, the first step is for you to put your hands back on the wheel. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The other piece that we’ve talked a little bit about is, and this is one of the areas that I think is still going to be great for you… until you add some clarity to it, is if you do all these things, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You go seek the feedback, you go do executive things so that you could get visibility as a potential for executive, out of your comfort zone, and the promotion still doesn’t happen, part of having your hand on the wheel is also about knowing at what point do you stop driving? At what point do you get off the exit? At what point do you need to stop for a rest? At what point do you need to turn right or a left? At what point do you take a detour? Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It makes sense. Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At what point do you stop? There’s a point. What I’m getting at is, at what point – what is the limit that you give yourself that you say, “Okay, if it’s not this, then I move on to something else, or I move on to this next step”? Whatever that next step might be. It might be outside of the company, it might be within the company, it might be the next step is I need to have another conversation, but what are the types of milestones that you’re going to be looking for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I would say is – and again, I’m going back and trying to connect the dots – is one, getting some more feedback, more clarity, what could be couple of things I could be doing, raising my hand enough, developing those two or three things as a milestone, deliver on those milestones, get the feedback, and then asking the same question again, “Do they now see me as being promotable?” And depending upon their answer, then that could be a point where I would say, “Okay, what do I need to do now?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. All right. And are you putting a timeframe around that for yourself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Currently, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But yeah, I mean, in this framework, which I just laid out, then of course, I will be laying out some sort of timelines as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So currently, you don’t have a timeframe, but what you’re saying is you want to shift to having a timeframe?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. And one of the reasons, Muriel, why I think I may not have a timeline is because my business is small, and as I was saying earlier, a lot of opportunities have shrunk, business has shrunk, so that could be one reason why I don’t want to put a timeline because I don’t see it. Even though I may say one year, two years, three years, but what I would be doing in that one year, two year, or three year in order to start getting the answer, you know what I mean?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. I think I know what you mean, but I think what I’m hearing is you don’t want to put a timeline that you don’t think might not be guaranteed; meaning, you don’t want to put a timeline without some clarity that that’s a timeline that’s actually going to happen."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, and I think exactly. I think for me, the million dollar thing is getting the clarity. For me, it’s the biggest thing. Today, if I can get the clarity that, “Hey, these are the two or three things you definitely need to hit before we further assess or to do something,” I will be the most happiest person in this world."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, clearly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think not having that clarity and vague is also demotivating me as well as… not having me reassess, but having me asking a question on myself is, what am I not doing, or what am I doing wrong… to not get evaluated or not getting the clear answer?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, I mean, in the void of an answer, you’re creating your own answer, which is, “I must be doing something wrong.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which we don’t know. We don’t know. I think you need to put some stakes in the ground. “I’m not getting clarity for others. I’m going to seek my clarity. I’m not getting a timeline for others. In lieu of that, I’m going to set myself a timeline. And yet, is there a risk that as a result of that, I may not hedge my bets correctly? Yeah, there’s a risk. So, then the decision becomes would I rather take that risk or the risk of what I’m in right now, which is nothing is happening and I’m feeling the way that I’m feeling?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that’s up to you. Okay? So, I think you’re in a position where, because nobody else is in the driver’s seat, you need to be in the driver’s seat rather than be in the back seat or on the passenger side. So, I’d love to hear from you… how do you feel now at the end of our conversation versus how you felt coming into our conversation, about your whole situation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, getting into the conversation, I was confused as to what I should be doing, but I think after that meeting, I think I’m more motivated, I would say."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re more motivated."}, {"role": "user", "content": "More motivated to present myself in a better way, to, again, using the same words, advocate myself better. I’m more positive that yes, if I go that way, then at least I have more probability of getting the answers than what I was earlier. So, I’m more positive and feeling more motivated now, I would say, more encouraged now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So, I want you to hold that feeling of motivated and positive as the attitude going into the next couple of weeks as you start putting this framework into action. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got it. Got it. Muriel, thanks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you. Thank you. Organizations do have a responsibility to develop their employees, and employees also have the responsibility to manage their careers. Even in sm’s case where the career path is ambiguous, it’s easy to feel as he did that your career advancement is at the mercy of others. And while stakeholders will definitely influence his progression, it was important for user to recognize he had more in his control than he gave himself credit for. With that newfound sense of ownership, he was able to take the wheel of his career and steer. I recently heard from user, and he had this to say, “I left our coaching session committed to advocate for myself for promotional opportunities and take the steering wheel of my career in my own hands. A few days ago, I stepped up and had a great conversation with my boss in HR around an excellent opportunity. Though it didn’t work out for some internal reasons, my thoughts and aspirations were very well received, and in the process, I was able to plant the seeds in their minds of what it is I’m aspiring for.” It’s so clear that user is well on his way to managing his career in spite of the lack of clarity around him. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Want more of Coaching Real Leaders? Join our community where I host live discussions to unpack the coaching sessions. Become a member at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find me in my newsletter on LinkedIn at coach AI. Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe; sound editor, Nick Crnko; music composer, Brian Campbell; my assistant, Emily Sofa; and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you are listeners who share in their journeys. If you are dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show next season. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward, share it with your friends, subscribe, and leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. From HBR Presents, I’m coach AI. Until next time, be well."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "She’s had a successful career leading in the corporate world and now she’s decided to venture out on her own to build a consulting business from scratch. But she’s struggling with her move into entrepreneurship and wonders if she made the right decision. Host Muriel Wilkins coaches her through how to make the most out of her entrepreneurial journey."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call user to protect her confidentiality. For the last 10 years or so, she’s worked in a corporate environment managing across different lines of business and regions. She and her team were revenue drivers and she had a reputation for turning around ailing parts of the business."}, {"role": "user", "content": "While I certainly have a lot of pride in the revenue and the results that I delivered, I have a ton of pride around the impact that I had as a leader on people. So, I had to balance my time between understanding the scenario of the business and start to create a really quick short-term strategy, but also be focused on the people side because as we very well know, if you don’t have the people portion correct, you’re certainly not going to have the productivity there that you need in order to deliver on the business objectives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That role created the foundation for where she is now in her career. She recently launched her own consulting practice, taking the formula she used internally to now help her clients grow their businesses. But the transition from corporate to entrepreneurship is new for user."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I started my own management consulting business, hesitantly, I would say. I’m a corporate animal, for lack of a better word, and I truly love being in the corporate environment. I knew now more than ever, it’s going to be so critical that I manage myself, that I lead myself, and learn how to not shelve some of those what I feel are my superpowers really is the leadership piece. I’ve completely shifted gears in certain ways, and I’m worried that I’m not delivering on a value that I have to bring to them, and I just want to make sure that I’m leading myself to true success."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user is now building her own business, which can be a pretty daunting shift for a lot of people. She’s looking for ways to build influence and be a leader outside of the structured environment she previously succeeded in. So, I started by digging in a little deeper to that success she had in her prior career to really define what she sees as the environment she thrives in. I asked her, what did success mean to her previously?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Certainly there were financial objectives and there were annual operating budgets that we had to hit. My team and I always devised a strategy ensuring that we could go back to the executives and even though we hit our objective, ensuring that we acted on all of the various strategies and tactics that we had mapped out that was very important, especially for my teams who oftentimes I found even in large, massive, like multi-billion dollar Corporate America organizations, oftentimes they’re not fully driven by the strategies, but the people piece was exceptionally important. Empowering people on my team from the youngest members, the most junior members I should say, so that they could start to earn and gain a very informal leadership experience before they even had anyone reporting to them. Peer-to-peer counsel and support networks were important to me. And then the development of each and every single individual on the team to ensure that they felt that we as an organization, we were investing in them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so it sounds to me like success when you were internal in the corporate world was being able to meet the business objectives while at the same time developing and leading people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right, so it gives me, I don’t know. I have this picture in my mind of what that land looks like, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Almost like a feel for probably what the energy of working in your organization was like. So what is the mindset that you think you had back then that enabled the actualization of the success that you had envisioned for your organization in terms of being able to drive for results while at the same time developing people? What’s the mindset that you had as a leader?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there’s a mindset and there was also a runway. Just as I’m speaking to you about it, the questions are popping up, what is different? Why aren’t you doing those things? First and foremost, I would say from a business results point of view, I had an infrastructure of the organization where we had annual objectives and long-term objectives that we were trying to hit. It might be launch a new product line, for example, and so then I could take that larger corporate strategy and then start to define what our accountability would be in driving that. What’s absent in the new client based environment is some of them are operating in the absence of that strategy, and some of them are very entrepreneurial driven. They’ve had much success leading their organization without a strategy that it’ll take some time to help them exercise that muscle, to understand that at this stage of the life cycle of their organization, in order for them, because they might have been seeing stagnant growth, in order for them to catapult themselves to the next level, it’s going to require planning, and that’s universal. Then I had mentioned the runway in the corporate world, although we oftentimes mostly feel like we have the shortest runway ever, that runway feels that much shorter when you are working with a client with a very finite period of time to prove results before they make a decision to say yay or nay, we should move forward."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, on the one hand, what’s different for you now? One is there is no overarching structure or architecture or framework that is driving the work that you have to deliver on."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. And if there is one that exists, because some clients are different from others, it’s a very loose, it’s not a formalized plan. It’s very loosely there and probably has some holes in it and needs some updating, needs some validation in terms of data, et cetera."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And then there’s also this, how much time you have to get them to move. So you’ve now identified what’s different. So, how does that make you feel? What’s the difference in terms of the impact that it has on you versus the way that you felt in corporate not having that overarching framework and having a shorter runway?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, first and foremost, I’m definitely hitting the ground running in an influencer role versus a pure leader role. Because I’m an asset to the executive leadership team, I’m asked to help them possibly rethink their organization, but I’m not being brought in on day one with direct reports and that leadership responsibility. So, right out of the gates coming in, I feel as though I do spend… And I do this with any new role that I have. So, this isn’t necessarily different. I have to spend and invest a good amount of time to build trust within the teams that I’m working with. So, there’s a lot of listening and a lot of learning and observation. So, that’s not different. But the difference being is that through their lens of I’m a consultant is a little bit different from this person is my manager. I certainly feel as though how I delicately try to influence different people within the client’s organization, those individuals are not expecting a leader. Now I have over time with some of the individuals because I feel as though I roll up my sleeves and I do whatever is required to further while, whether it’s developing the relationships or mostly to get the job done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It feels to me as you’re talking like something is lacking and I’m trying to understand what is it that’s lacking for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that’s a great question. It’s probably the leadership piece."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In what way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Having a direct responsibility and an accountability to impact the growth and development of other individuals. I think in a very formalized way, that’s not to say, and I as I was just mentioning, I do this in the informal way, it looks different. So it’s probably still really very much there, but it’s not formalized. So maybe the client won’t necessarily be aware of that impact that I’m having."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s hard to measure that, and that’s not something necessarily that those individuals are going to report back to the executives to say, well, this is the impact that I’ve had. And then I don’t necessarily think there’s anything missing. I think it’s the mindset. There’s a mindset maybe shift that needs to happen, and maybe this just naturally happens over time the more you are out of corporate environment and you are in a consultant role that you become less focused on the I’ve got to prove myself, I’ve got to prove myself. But truth be told, I think I was like that in the corporate environment as well, because every year was a chance to be promoted. Every year was a chance to smash another goal. So, maybe that’s part of leading myself is reminding myself that it’s all the same thing, it’s just disguised differently. And the other thing that I definitely had to really have some stern talks with myself about was it’s not the number of hours. Certainly there’s an expectation if you have clients that expect you to deliver the equivalent of 20 hours of work in a week, even if you’re on a retainer base, you’re fairly cognizant of that in terms of how you delineate your time. But it’s the results that you achieve versus the number of hours that you’re billing for. And I had to remind myself of that oftentimes throughout the last X number of months that I could bill out 20 plus hours. But if I achieve nothing in those 20 plus hours, that billing process won’t last very long with that particular client."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, exactly. So, I think it’s really interesting because my sense is you’re grasping for what are the measures of success that a year from now, two years from now, whatever X timeframe you want to use, you can look back on and say, okay, I’ve done well, I’ve succeeded."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That is 100% me, 100%. Because even at the end of the week I’m trying to create that list to send it out to the client, but I think it’s almost more so for myself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Right, exactly. And you’ve had that when you’re on the corporate side, it was very concrete. They hand it to you. They say, Hey, it’s January, here’s what you’ve got to do by December. And now it’s like nobody’s telling you what you have to do. Nobody’s telling you what the measure of success is. You have to define it, and it might be ambiguous for a little bit until you have some repetition to realize, oh, this is how I can measure success for my clients. So ,my sense is right now, because you place such a high value on leadership and you’re missing that in your role as a management consultant in the way that you’ve had it before, it makes you feel like, What’s going on? Am I succeeding? And I think one of the things that I would offer you is when you talk about leadership, I remember somebody said to me once, or I may have heard it, I can’t recall, but they were like, “there’s being a parent and then there’s parenting, and the two are very different. You can be a parent and not be great at parenting, and you can parent as a verb without necessarily having the title of being a parent.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I think what you have shifted from when you were in corporate, you had the title of being a leader positionally, and you were also able to lead. So, you did both. You were like the holy grail. You were a leader who actually led. Now, when you’re internal to your clients, you don’t have the positional title. And I think that’s what you’re feeling the miss of, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They don’t see you as the leader. And so I think you need to sit with that. And I’ll ask you in a sec, how does that land with you that they don’t see you that way? But that doesn’t absolve you from the verb of leading. When I say that to you internally at your clients, they may not necessarily be seeing you as the leader, they’re seeing you as the management consultant. How does that land with you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yeah, it’s reality, that’s the current reality. And as we’re talking through this, just this morning, I identified to one of the executives, there’s an individual on the team that has these types of development needs. So, not necessarily in this exact moment part of maybe the accountabilities that I was signed up for, but definitely, I’ve been wanting to say something, wanting to highlight something, and I did do that and it was well received. And I’m almost wondering, as you talk about the whole differentiating the title versus the action verb, maybe I just have to carve out those moments as they organically come to light, and maybe in this scenario it’s a little more cushioned around what we’re trying to achieve in this partnership, the productivity, this might be in the way or the resources because the math and asked to comment on the required resources of the organization. Is there a better organizational design for a certain department? And maybe identifying where it’s not a matter of sweeping out certain individuals because they’re not performing, but it’s going a bit deeper. Were they ever performing? And just using some of those leadership muscles that I would have been flexing before, but trying to keep it again in an organic way. And when I think about that need, there’s almost like a fear that five years from now I’m called back to the corporate world. Does that get rusty or is it just I just have to dust it off a little and it’s still there? Because I, for the last 13 years, made a strong commitment that on a weekly basis I was doing something to elevate myself as a leader."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I don’t know if it gets rusty."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Muriel, you’re supposed to say no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because that’s what you want to hear, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "JANE is up against what a lot of entrepreneurs run into when they can no longer rely on clear cut corporate deliverables and metrics. She’s thoughtful and wants to do a good job, but is searching for how to define that and what it means in a different context from her previous career. She can jump right into the tactical with her clients and see what needs to be adjusted in their business, but she’s struggling in finding good leadership goals for herself in her own entrepreneurial venture. I’m curious about whether or not she’s ready to let go of the structure and familiarity of the corporate environment. Let’s jump back in as I bring this up to her."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, great question. I certainly have my ambition, even though I’ve veered in a different direction in this current moment. My ambition is C-suite. And C-suite I feel the most important skillset is that leadership piece."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Setting culture, empowering people, that all equates to high-level of productivity. I mean, there are other things in that equation, for sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So, I don’t want to read into it. So correct me if I’m completely off here. Am I correct in saying that you, having started your own business and become management consulting is not necessarily the end all? Meaning I’m going to start my business, this is it, right? As far as you know it really is a stepping stone or a bit of a detour and expansion, but still at some point you’d like to be back in the corporate path on your way to the C-suite? Correct?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, that makes a difference. That makes a difference because I think in the same way that you mentioned, how do I leverage the skills and the knowledge that I gained when I was on the corporate side, how do I leverage that in terms of serving and seeing my clients? I think you have to think really intentionally about how do you use this experience in starting your own consulting business so that you’re learning some things and you’ll have some skills and knowledge that you’ll be able to leverage that prepares you for going back into the corporate side at some point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I think some of the discomfort you’ve been feeling is, I’ve started my own business, I’m working with clients, and it’s like, where’s the end? You’re making this motion where I’m going in circles, but where’s the end? And is this really it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very much so yeah, those thoughts have definitely been popping up for sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Okay. So, it’s good to know that this is in context of this other goal that you have, because then that changes how you approach it. All right? And this piece around, is it going to go rusty? And I said, I don’t know, because it depends, it depends what you do with it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I remember when I left my corporate job, corporate and I had been in strategy consulting and I moved into coaching and I hung up my shingle and it was just me at that point. But I remember always saying, you know what? Worse comes to worse, I can always go back to being a strategy consultant or go back to corporate because I know how to do this, this, and this. And then I remember a couple years in, maybe it was on year five or six, I woke up in the middle of the night and I woke my husband up and he was like, what is going on? And I was like, I don’t think I can go back. And he said, what? Go back where? I said, my fallback plan. Remember I could just go back to this. I don’t think I can go. And he was like, what are you talking about? I said, I don’t think I can work a spreadsheet the way I used to. Because I had let it go rusty. But the reason I let it go rusty is that even though that was my little fallback plan, it was a fallback plan out of fear. I didn’t really want to go back. So, I let it go. But if I really wanted to go back, maybe I should have taken actions there. So, what I’m going to ask you is, if your end goal, your uber goal is to be in the C-suite in a corporate environment, what are the skills and muscles… I’m going to put them in two categories. What are the skills and muscles that you want to maintain and retain and keep fresh that you already have? And what are the ones that you want to grow while you’re having this experience in having your own business and working with clients?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The second one, I don’t readily have an answer for. The first one, so what’s already in my existing wheelhouse?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The strategy component, the ability to come into a business, identify very quickly how it’s been working, what’s led to the current success or lack of thereof? What’s impeding growth? And what are some of the tactics that can be employed for some quick wins? Well, first off, I always say, I’ve always said this to my team, no one really, truly will follow or jumps on board if you don’t have a plan. It’s like I’m showing up to a house build and I don’t have the blueprints for the house, and I’m the architect. So, I’m always rapidly starting to devise that blueprint. But a couple of quick wins really gets people on your side and having the ability to confidently make bold decisions to chart a new course, it’s really hard when an organization or a division has been doing something for 10, 20 years, but to boldly say, We’re going to go in this direction and I believe these are the results it will achieve. And I feel that that’s a requisite in a C-suite role. And of course it’s a template. It can be applied to any business, any division of a company, et cetera, et cetera. And then achieving those results 100%. What do I need to develop? When I left the corporate world, I was in a fabulous organization. I’ve been in very big organizations that are very recognizable. I was very proud of that. I was very proud that they believed in me and they developed me, and I was able to excel, but I was pigeonholed. So, even when I tried to make a leap to the other side of the business, I was always kindly redirected. S,o learning other functional parts of the business I feel is really important. But also making a name for my myself and expanding my own brand to bust out of being known for X, this functional expertise, and that it’d always be my name, would be a little more synonymous with this type of function."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, there’s a couple of things that I’m hearing from you, all right? When you talked about the things that you can keep, right? Because I see this as what do you need to keep? What do you need to pick up? And what do you need to let go of? And I think they’ll let go of part is probably what’s going to be a little trick again, but we’ll get there. But the stuff around what do you need to keep, and they’re all related. What do you need to keep? The strategy piece, being able to drive to results, being able to lead people towards results and support the agenda of the organization."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You want to be able to keep all of that. What I heard as an undertone is a sense of ownership, a sense of owning how we drive to the results. A sense of owning how you develop the people to get to the results. A sense of owning how you frame the vision and the strategy in order to meet the overall corporate strategy. And to what extent do you feel you have any ownership when it comes to the work that you’re doing for your clients in the way that you did on the corporate side?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I definitely feel as though I’ve shifted to player more so than coach because I’ve had to. I’ve had to be able to say, “this is something that I have contributed in the last X number of months, and those have been quite tactical.” I mean, I have written strategy, but I feel that’s a communal document. I took information and data and input from various sources of the organization. And for me, in that particular instance, it matters more to me that it’s a communal paper versus this is mine. Because then I feel as though I’m trying to take something that I’ve authored and enforce it on people as opposed to it was a community collaborative effort. Let me ask, when you ask that question, is it because you feel that it’s important to me to be able to say I can put my stamp on that? Is that why you’re asking the question?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I don’t know why I’m asking the question. I just ask the question. I wasn’t going anywhere with it. It’s just something that I missed. And so I’m going to ask you that do you feel a need? And without judgment. The clients aren’t in the room here, right? No judgment. Does it do something for you? Does it give you more of a sense of confidence or value if you feel like you can point to something and say, “that was me?” There’s a direct line back to what user did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and I don’t like admitting that because for the last 15 years, that’s exactly the opposite of what I was trying to do. I felt like I was being the opposite of the leader that I wanted to be if I had to take ownership of something, it was the team or individual on the team. But in this case, because it is self-preservation, and it’s also, as I mentioned, I started off the clients on a pilot program, at the outset, that was to give myself leverage so that when the six months were up or the two months were up, it was time to negotiate because a few of these organizations, they had never really worked with a consultant in my capacity, for example. And so I wanted them to feel comfortable with the retainer based model. And I knew that I would have a better ability to negotiate after showing some quick wins. So, yes, I had to say, boom, I delivered on that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And I think what’s key here is the way that you tee that up by saying, “I hate to admit that because that’s what I’ve been trying not to be in my past role, yet, here I am. And here I am having a need to be able to demonstrate what I’m bringing to the table, not only to my clients, but also to myself, because I came into this a little hesitantly,” as you said."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, when we hesitate, it means there’s always a little something that’s saying, did I do the right thing? And so I don’t know, yes, you have something you need to prove to your clients, right? And it sounds like there’s something you’re trying to prove to yourself. So, what is it that you’re trying to prove to yourself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think what keeps me up at night is I know that I’m a fairly decent price tag for these organizations, and it’s very important for me that I deliver value on that. That there’s a real ROI and not a 1.5 times ROI, a 10 times ROI. But there’s also… yeah, I don’t want to break my winning streak. I felt like it’s really important that I’m always tracking the wins. There’s a great story around that. When someone asked me in the last five years, what have you done? I like to be able to pull up the, well, we achieved this, we achieved that. I have data points at the ready. I think that’s the way I’ve been brought up, is to always set a goal, and in almost every aspect of my life, set that goal, smash it, and set another one, an even bigger one. And that’s also how I also led my teams was we’re going to the Super Bowl and we win a title, and then what’s next? We want to win two Super Bowls. We want to go here. I feel motivated by that. And I like to look at my trophy cabinet probably, I mean, this is revealing my deepest secrets, but I do. If I was an athlete, I’d want to have a gold medal, I want to have won the Olympics, a world title. And it’s not about being the best of the best, it’s about setting that goal and then smashing it. It’s just ringing the bell when you close the deal. It feels so good and it feels so good when you’re in a team and you do that together. Those are some really emotional moments. And when you leave that leadership role and you’re an independent consultant, you have to be your own cheerleader, but you’re so used to doing it for the entire team, and then there are times when I have to tell myself, “I’ve got to get excited. I’ve got to get excited in these four walls here, and be the one to be like, ‘today we’re going to achieve this.’ I’m going to bring the bell.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Exactly, right? Oh my gosh, you are looking to ring the bell, but you’re using your old moments as the moments to ring the bell versus what does it take to ring the bell now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right. That’s right. Yeah. What does it take? And okay, there will be the we landed a client, that’s great. I have to set more of the micro moments so that there are smaller milestones to get excited about. And I think there’s doing that for myself and on my own, and then certainly doing that with the clients as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And I love the way that you framed that because we’ve been focusing our conversation, or you’ve focused a lot of your conversation around the client impact. And JANE, what I would say to you is you’re actually walking a parallel path. You’re wearing two hats. You’re a consultant, and we have to define still what does that mean? What’s the value in that? You can rename it to something else if consultant doesn’t feel right to you. There’s the work you’re doing inside the client, and that’s one piece of it. And the other path you’re walking is you own a business. So, you are a CEO."}, {"role": "user", "content": "True."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You might be the CEO of one in a company building of one room, but you are a CEO. And I haven’t heard anything from you around what juices you up there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, because I think as soon as I started with my first two clients, there were conversations around, well, how do we make this a full-time role? Almost like, how do we bring you on as an employee? And my part of the brain that craves security was like, yes, yes, yes, yes. And I had people offering to help me on the business side, Okay, we’re going to help you set up a website, you need a proper domain name for your email address. And I’ve been delaying and delaying that. And I don’t know what that means, but I think, like I said, that part of the brain that’s craving that just likes to be in the secure place. And I like to try to live by the philosophy that the greatest things can happen in the unknown when you’re in that seat of the unknown, that’s when you can dream up the most unbelievable realities, the things that you can make come true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, let me just say something here. Okay? Because this notion of security."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m glad you’re thinking about it that way because I think when people get to a place of, Should I start my own business or should I stay in my corporate gig? Which again, I can empathize, I was there. I remember over 20 years ago, do I keep the comfortable corner office or do I go to my walk-in closet and start working there? Truthfully. And a big piece of it was security, but I’m just going to plant a little seed about this word security. Security is all relative and it’s an illusion. Okay? I don’t know if you’ve ever experienced being in a corporate job and that security blanket being pulled out from under you. Either your boss changes, you lose your job, your people get laid off, big work change, et cetera. Or you’ve seen others go through it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have twice. So, you’d think that I wouldn’t know that is not as secure place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, anything is as secure as you want it to be. Security is a feeling. It’s how you experience it. So, the person who’s the die-hard entrepreneurial, I-will-never-work-for, quote, unquote, “the big corporate, blah, blah,” their sense of security is not working there. And the person who’s like, I will never go start my own business, their sense of security is working in the corporate. So it’s all relative."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, there’s no judgment on whether, as you said, when you said that the best… I can’t remember the exact quote, but the greatest path is where the unknown is. Well, there’s unknown everywhere. And what you’re experiencing now is just another field to get comfortable with the unknown. But I think at the end of the day, you also have to ask yourself, what can I do to make myself feel secure in the chapter that I’m in right now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And I actually think that part of it is I almost feel like I need to shake everything off in this moment and shed some of the, I’m going back to corporate tomorrow because I really don’t think that’s where I’m supposed to be. Otherwise, why would I be doing this? Why didn’t I just spend X number of months and then look for a different job?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it’s not what you’re supposed to be doing. How about, what is it that you want? What do you want to be doing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s crazy, but the word successful is going to come up. I want to be successful. I mean, we can define that in a million different ways. I need to lead myself through this, and I’m not leading myself through it. I’m being in it. I need to lead myself to get the most out of this situation that I can."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, what does that look like? What does that look like to get the most out of this situation? How will you look back a year or two years, three years from now and say, I got the most out of this situation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have to stop living in this in between. I think there’s a part of me, and I’m not going to blame it on the client, but having planted the seed of, Well, maybe I need to accept that I’m doing it. I set out to start this management consulting business, there are people who are rallying around me and supportive, and I’ve had great clients that I’ve been able to set up. I owe it to them to fully be invested in the now, in what it is that I’m doing without being one foot in, one foot out. And then it’s just like I would for any other individual on my team, and doing what we’re doing right now is what’s my objective? What’s my objective for the next two years? What do I need to achieve not with the client? And whether it’s path A that leads me back one day to a C-suite. What does that look like? How do I lead myself through growth? Because I certainly led myself when I was in corporate, nobody told me to take leadership courses at Harvard. Nobody told me that I should be reading leadership books on a weekly basis. Nobody told me to put all these different things into play. So ,I know that I can lead myself, but I’m just not doing it. And then how do I ensure that I am growing outside of the growing that I’m doing with these individual clients? I’m not doing that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think you have dove so deep into the client and doing the work, actually doing the work."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That you’ve lost sight of the fact that you’ve started a business."}, {"role": "user", "content": "100%."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In losing sight of the fact that she’s also now a business owner, user is straddling. Her commitment depends on how she feels versus putting a stake in the ground and saying, “I’m all in even if it’s just for the next 12 months.” She hasn’t considered what it looks like if she doesn’t have an out, if she does plan to eventually go back to corporate. So, the mindset shift she is seeking is actually about moving to one of commitment. And here’s the thing, commitment doesn’t just appear magically, it’s a choice. It’s a decision. And that’s why it’s uncomfortable for her, because it’s a choice she has to make. She doesn’t have to be an entrepreneur. She can go right back to corporate if she wanted to. So, what’s becoming clear is that there’s nothing truly anchoring user in her new venture. My sense is that she lacks a north star with her own business. So, I asked her, how will she know that her business has been successful a few years from now? Has she laid out the strategy for her own business in the same way she does for others?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. The answer is no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re shaking your head. The answer is no."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s surprising to me. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what would that do for you if you just went through even the exercise?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It would be the blueprint. And I think that would allow me to commit to this because there’s a plan. But you’re so right. I’ve been so diving, I dug deep for it and I keep digging deep for the client, which is great. But I don’t want to be in a situation where I haven’t planned, There are no contingencies. Just like when I was in my corporate role, things will change. How do we plan for those contingencies?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I can understand why you dove right into the client because it gave you a hit. It gave you a hit of being able to point at the end of the day and say, I got a PowerPoint deck for the client. I’ve got it done."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I had two meetings with the client and they went well, I got it done. It gave you that hit of I’ve done something."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which is, as you know, because you’re a student of leadership, leading is not just about doing, leading is also about being. And in being, what you haven’t been able to do so far yet is pull your head up and say, okay, where am I going with this? What does that look like? I mean, I don’t don’t know, you tell me. Have you set up sales objectives for you as you’re a business, how many clients you want by X period of time, how much revenue you want to generate by X period of time? Have you done all of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I set one revenue target."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And what’s funny is, before I landed the clients, I was mapping out the process: Here’s what I need to do, I need a corporate sizzle to explain what type of services I’m going to offer, Im going to make four of them, I’m going to do a photo shoot, I’m going to work on my own branding. I had mapped that out. And you know what’s funny is this is exactly what I used to tell my team not to do. It’s the equivalent of having your head stuck in the email inbox. You’re just like what’s happening in the moment? What’s happening in the moment? And that is not a recipe for success. This has not been pulled together the way I would’ve expected myself to pull together my own business. And I actually don’t even call it my own business when I’m speaking to people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you call it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have clients."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And I think that’s a big differentiator. You talked about, I think earlier in the conversation, sometimes it feels like you’re an employee."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re not an employee, you’re the owner."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And there’s a difference between having an ownership mindset and having an employee mindset. And so you’re operating with an employee mindset, waiting for direction from the owner. And guess who’s the owner? You’re looking at her in the mirror."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh gosh, and it’s so true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I think it’s time for you to put your owner hat on."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it’s interesting to me, when you look at people who start your own business, sometimes they veer way to… They swing the pendulum on the other side than you. They’re like, I’m the owner and they do no work. And then they have no clients. They have a great revenue target, beautiful website, wonderful photo shoot, all the things. And it’s like, yeah, but how many clients do you have?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Zilch, zero. And then there are those who you know better to start off with some clients and then play catch up on the, actually let me build this business, right? Because it’s an actual business that’s a little bit more sustainable to do, but it takes some intentionality to lift your head up outside of, as you said, the email and the client meetings and the deliverables to say, “Oh shoot. I’m actually running a business, I know how to run a business, I’ve done it before. It’s just been inside a corporate machine. How do I do it now here?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I think in order to do that, the biggest thing, user, is it’s not because you should be doing that, it’s not because you expect that’s what you should do, it’s because it’s what you want to do. Okay? Running your own business is not for everybody, nor should it be. Only do it because it’s what you want to do. It’s like going on vacation. Don’t go to x, y, z destination if that’s not where you want to go. Don’t go to the beach if what you really want to do is go skiing, you can still have a vacation. Choose the vacation you want. And in this case, you can be a leader wherever the heck you want, but choose what container you want it to be in. Is it in the form of having your own business or is it in the corporate setting? I think that’s what you need to decide, even if there are time limits to it. And it’s okay to say, I want to do it in my own business setting, at least for three years. Or it’s okay to say, you know what? I’ve done this for a little bit now, I actually think I want to go back a little quicker to the corporate setting and continue to do my leadership thing there. Totally your choice, but you have to decide."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s the problem. I think I’m not convinced that I have made that decision. I do think I need to give it a little bit more time. We grow the most when we’re uncomfortable. And if you’d asked me in the last few years of corporate, I would’ve said, the only growth that I’m getting is I’m forcing myself to explore something that’s not even accountability. So here I am, I’m learning, I’m learning about all these different businesses, I’m learning about aspects of the business that before I didn’t have a role to play, I saw it from arm’s length. And so I think if I can just commit to it and say to myself, if tomorrow I wake up and I decide this isn’t for me and I’m not happy or excited because I’m the type person, I’m excited to go to work, then you can decide then. But at least you gave this a good old college try. How can you know if you love something or you don’t love something until you’ve really put your heart into it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. I feel like we can settle in. So tell me what… We’ve covered a lot, believe it or not."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know. My gosh. We have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me what your takeaways are."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, there’s a lot there. There’s a lot there. I went backwards and we together went backwards, looked at what motivated me, what was empowering me then, and I think it’s important to go back to understand, Is that what’s going to make me feel empowered now in my current reality? I just have to say the emotional piece of leadership that kept coming up in the back of my mind is always talking. I think that’s the love affairs that I have with working is that piece. And having to admit it, that I’m not typically that person. I’m either white or black, I’m in or I’m out. I make decisions quickly and I’m steadfast about them. So, being in this gray zone of it’s hard for me to admit to that, but it doesn’t mean that it’s a fail. And so maybe I have to say that I’m proud myself to admit it. And so thank you for getting me there. And reshaping the win, that’s a big one for me. It really is. And I think putting in that effort, that’s going to be a challenge for me for sure, because I have to pump the breaks over here for a second on the client needs in order to take the time and invest in myself and this business that I’ve started that has a very nice revenue stream and understanding how I can scale this, what does that look like? And applying the same principles that I had in my old role, and to expand on that in establishing a business. So, yeah, we unpacked a lot. We definitely did. I feel like I just ran a pretty long race because you have to explore things and you have to be honest with yourself, and you have to admit what’s scary and is that why you’re coming in high? Or is it legitimately, you prefer something else? I think I need to, after this session, say to myself, I’m investing in myself. I’m investing in my business. And put your money where your mouth is because you’ve been talking – or, I’ve been talking  – about my brand is turning businesses around, starting things up and making them profitable and achieving those results. And I need to have that same story as it pertains to my own business."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Exactly. Exactly. So, act like the CEO of your business."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s it. That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can’t wait to hear how this goes for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, yeah. I’m excited. I’m excited. We’ll need to do a check in for sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, we sure will. Well, listen, thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for doing this with us."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At the end of the conversation, user admitted that she felt that she had just run a bit of a race. Being in a state of ambivalence can definitely feel exhausting. But once you can be honest with yourself about what choices you need to make and what you’re ready to commit to, you can truly start moving forward toward your goals. On a personal note, I lived this scenario moving from a corporate executive role to becoming an entrepreneur and experience all the risks that come along with it. As a coach, though, I can empathize with user. But it’s important that I not confuse my client’s story with my own. And that’s why it was important for user to define what security means for her and not look to anyone else, including me, to do that for her. We create our own security, and it means different things for different people. user had to come to terms with that and choose what trade-offs she’s willing to make to achieve her goals. Only then will she get the most out of her entrepreneurial journey, however long it will last. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Want more of Coaching Real Leaders? Join our community where I host live discussions to unpack the coaching sessions. Become a member at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find me and my newsletter on LinkedIn at coach AI. Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe; sound editor, Nick Crnko; music composer, Brian Campbell; my assistant Emily Sofa; and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you are listeners who share in their journeys. If you are dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show next season. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward, share it with your friends, subscribe, and leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. From HBR Presents, I’m coach AI. Until next time, be well."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "He’s had a long, successful career as an attorney, in spite of the challenges he’s faced as a neurodivergent leader. Now he wants to parlay his legal experience and interest in advocacy into a different career in diversity, equity, and inclusion, but he’s having a hard time landing the role he wants. Host Muriel Wilkins coaches this leader through how to move forward with his career plans even when it feels like the odds are stacked against him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call user to protect his confidentiality. He spent much of his career as an attorney and is also neurodivergent."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m originally from Latin America and came from a very competitive immigrant background growing up with dyslexia, which was not diagnosed until I was 14 years old. Thanks to the tenacity of my parents, for both academics and didn’t let me give up. Through tutoring, I was able to go forward and especially because there were no possibilities of helping people, even dyslexia wasn’t really the term that was used."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user identifies as Hispanic and immigrated to the United States to pursue his undergraduate studies and eventually attained his law degree from a prestigious university."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My language abilities, I’m fluent in four languages. I also was very well traveled, informally trained both as an undergrad and in grad school that went parallel with law school in international affairs and that training and my natural abilities… dyslexics, like any other person who has a disability, you can develop much keenly if you can’t read that well but your hearing is excellent. Coming out from a very elite institution, parachute me into great opportunities. The issue has been that as an attorney, especially in large law firms, my ability to show value, which translates into profits through the conventional means of measuring performance and available hours, I had trouble needing that. I’ve been able to show great value in areas that are not conventional or traditional in big law firms and even in government service, which I had great experience with, I’m very good at building relationships."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user is now at a place where he wants to make a career change. He’s done some diversity, equity, and inclusion work on more of a volunteer basis as a practicing attorney. He’s now looking to transition to that space on a full-time basis, but he’s struggling in getting there. A large part of what fuels his interest in DEI work is his experience as a neurodivergent professional, but he’s keenly aware of the challenges he faced in the past when others were not as open to his dyslexia. And so, I start the conversation by asking user how those experiences impact his work today."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I came to grips with a fact that faking my identity is neurodiverse, trying to get around something that inevitably. Even in the best day with the best energy, I would still make mistakes in written work product I had to do. There was just no two ways about it. The problem is that for anybody in my profession as an attorney with dyslexia, you become devalued when you open yourself and say, I have dyslexia, I need accommodations. And that happened to me both in a private sector as well as in government service. If you’re given accommodations, you thrive. If you don’t, you really become what one boss told me, “Well, why do I need you? Because there are people who can crank out work faster than you.” So, in that regard, and that has been my life experience, is you have to position yourself where despite being dyslexic, you can show value and profit where you are. The question is that there could be intervening circumstances that are totally beyond your control. Like a bad boss who frankly told me, “Well, I don’t have a secretary. Why should you?” Put you in a situation where you’re kind of not a risk that an employer wants to take. And as we will discuss, there are very specific excellent roles that I can do and I’m well prepared and I’m even harnessing and building capacity towards those roles. And unfortunately things that I cannot control my age, which is over 50, and the fact that I’ve had to fight and really prevail for my rights in terms of being accumulated makes me not such a, well, not successfully in the job hunting that I have done and I’m still at a very good position as a leader. But the cost of being dyslexic definitely is financial compensation. Unless you are very lucky to continue as I was at one point in my career, succeeding in areas like relationship building, things that don’t depend on reading and writing, you become very vulnerable of being at square one. But the real issue is that over time, the setbacks of putting all the effort that is required for networking, which I’m very good at, putting applications and all that, then the lack of moving forward to an offer has a very big emotional cost. So, the tremendous self confidence that I had is being diminished and that becomes an issue that people can feel and compounds those headwinds. The headwinds for me are a solid, tremendous capacity in leadership and also that I’m preparing myself very well. I even gone back to school now to preparing in not a certificate program, but a program that prepares you as a leader in diversity inclusion."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, tell me for today, in terms of our coaching session, what’s the question that’s come up for you that you want support working through?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Part of it is how to overcome or how to position myself the best that I can as an inspiring leader, but in showing potential and not just showing a background of solid success in leadership. So, how to convince people my record of leadership can translate in fulfilling the aspirations that they have. What I see is that in interviews they would see both age in a very open disability as one. And so my hope is that I can see how to better present myself and truly your ideas of how to overcome the emotional setbacks that I think are natural when you are just not go back for a long period of time and you keep doing it, but you keep being knocked down and you have to stand up and do it again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, it sounds like you have been pursuing new roles and at the same time it’s not just a new role in the field that you’ve been in, but it’s a career transition into DEI or role transition. So, it’s not just about let me get a new position at a new firm or a new company doing something similar to what I was doing before or at the next level. It’s really about getting a new position but also in a field that I have some personal experience having lived through it. And some experience, you’ve had some experience, I know you’ve done some non-profit association work around it, but not having had that specific leadership role in an organization before as a DEI lead. Is that correct?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. In my case, I’m coming from affinity bar associations like Hispanic leadership. I also as an attorney with disabilities. I’m part of the National and, actually, International Dyslexia Association, other associations. And that is very much valued today, but is not really from where I derive my livelihood. What I would love to be able to be paid to do something that I love and that I have a lot to offer because there is this new need not just for people who for window dressing purposes look good in a diversity inclusion role, but really can do short term and long term strategy and implementation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then it sounds like you’ve put yourself forward for these roles. You have the interviews, it sounds like you get pretty far, but then you don’t get the offer. Right? And have you gotten any feedback from any of the… I know that’s a tricky question, but have you gotten any feedback formally or informally from some of these potential employers around what didn’t get you to the offer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because of very good networking, what I have found out is in one position where I was in the final for a diversity inclusion role, I found out that I was just perceived as too old. So, that’s one feedback that confirms the feeling that the ideal candidate is somebody between 30 and upper 40s and on past. The other issue that I have found and it’s hard to get feedback because obviously people who interview don’t want to place themselves in any risk of doing something that would be tolerable is a new situation. But what I found was that people have told me, how can you be interviewing for such a junior role when you should be really in a high senior director role? They say, “We would love to have you as a corporate member, but this is a very junior role.” So, that’s the only feedback that I’ve had. And also, I believe, although that I have no clear evidence in being overqualified because of my age, I think that may be happening. People don’t want to… Why should they go in and hire somebody? Because they focus not in your potential, but they focus more on off. But that’s really a superposition. I’ve never had somebody tell me in my face it’s been this situation of finding out that ageism as well as the issue of being regarded as overqualified. Although I make it clear that in the AI, it’s really a new profession that I’m trying to move into. So, it’s much more adequate for me to go into a junior role because I don’t have the years of being in a top role."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I think it’s great that you have some data, right? That’s helpful in terms of understanding why you may not have gotten offers. What I would encourage you to do is also see them as a few points of data and a few points of data does not make the complete story. And more importantly, a few points of data doesn’t necessarily define the story that you need to be telling about why you are a right for the position. Okay. So, when you talk about positioning yourself for any type of role, what you’re really talking about is what is my narrative? What is the story that I share that gives people the hope that you can fulfill the potential that they see for the role. So, this is really important because then you have to pick what informs that narrative. So, when you approach these new roles, how are you positioning yourself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, first of all is the resume because the traditional lawyer resume is not… Right now the problem is also getting through the first filter, which is really artificially intelligence. So, I had someone who is a professional in making sure that your resume is the best that touches on my diversity and inclusion highlights. But since it’s not your typical chronological presentation, that is one issue of getting at least to the interview. And then at the interview, what I find is when they tell me the general question, introduce yourself or tell me why you would be good for the role. I see that although I’m very anxious to make the best impression possible, I’m not getting, and you can see this in the first couple of minutes, I’m not sensing that I’m getting somebody excited about me. And I was telling my kids when I was 17 years old and got to just visit the campus, my English wasn’t even adequate. But the person who just gave me a tour said, “Can you wait and meet the dean because I would love for them to meet you.” And then that dean asked the dean of admissions to see me. All of this fell in my lap, but mostly because I was confident and my story, which included how I dealt with dyslexia was very inspiring. And I have a very solid academic record. But what happens really 45 years later or more is this situation where I have to force myself. It’s not coming as natural as it should of being somebody that really would say, “Oh my God”, as I have been the other side interviewing people, they’re people whose confidence, their authenticity and just to being likable. I think it’s been cut down by a very toxic environment that I had four years before now and going into a new field with that baggage it weighs in those interviews. It would be interesting to get to know with the background that you’re learning on me, how can I be authentic and inspiring at the same time? How is it in the first four or five minutes of an interview what I sense, and perhaps it’s in my imagination, perhaps it’s not happening and there are other reasons. But I do think, and now that you asked about feedback, somebody who highly recommended me for a job said that she got the feedback that I seem very anxious and that is not good because you feel it when you’re interviewed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And do you feel anxious?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s pause here. To recap where user is and where he’d like to go. He came to the conversation with a desire to transition into a new career. And while he can’t quite pinpoint why he’s not landing the roles he wants, he has some hypotheses as to why this might be the case. As his coach, I spent probably more time than usual getting context from user because in this case I think it was important given the multiple layers at play. My job is not to dissect every piece and just like my role is not to be an expert in the field of law or DEI, I also don’t need to be an expert in neurodiversity to coach him. But I do need to understand enough context so that I can help him figure out what’s next. And that’s why I gave space to user to download. Much of what user has shared so far has been on how others experience him. So, I wanted to turn our discussion to the one thing he can control, how he experiences his job interviews and how that helps shape his ability to move forward. Let’s jump back into the conversation to address just that. And so I think a big piece of this is what are you leading with? What is your experience going in? And if we can harness what your experience is, and that’s what you bring to the table, that’s what you bring to the interview, that’s what you bring to those first few minutes. It may not guarantee it, but at least it increases the chances of them experiencing the same thing about you. Just as you did in the past where what you experienced with yourself with self-confidence and what those recruiters experienced through you was, this is a gentleman who’s confident, right? So, right now what’s happening is they are experiencing exactly what you give out. So, this is not about changing the other. This is about looking at yourself and checking yourself and saying, what’s the energy I’m coming in with? What’s the experience that I’m having right now? And if I do want to at least try to influence the experience that these interviewers are having with me, then let me change my own experience. That’s where we start because that’s the only thing as you said, that’s in your control. Okay? So, with that in mind, what do you think you need to let go of in those first four to five minutes of your interviews? Let’s just even focus on that. What do you think you need to let go of prior to coming into the interview?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The feeling that I’m not going to get the job and that’s awful to recognize. And can you imagine as a head of a household with kids, it’s just totally detaching myself from, I could say there were three decades of success and then the past 10 years because really, and this is just something that unfortunately happens, you follow into the hands of bad management and people who, they’re narcissistic, they’re insecure, and then you go over their heads and complain, then they make your life hell. So, that experience, this is what I need to get rid of, is the feeling when I go in. Not what was successful before is that of course I wanted the job, but I would be very good storyteller. I was much more likable than now when those factors age, the aspects that are, I can’t change. This is unfortunately the situation, but all those great credentials, which on the other side you say, “Oh my god, you’re overqualified.” It’s going on with an enthusiastic narrative and being able not to give out that if you want to see it metaphorically, that not pleasantness that people pick up right away."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because it sounds like what’s happened in the past or even the feedback you’ve gotten that maybe it’s about your age, which you can’t change. Your age is your age, is your age, right? I mean there’s really nothing you can change about that. It sounds like what’s happening is you are starting to feed into it, right? You’re starting to believe it. Yeah, this is a problem, I’m a problem. And if you start believing that, you started off this conversation with me saying, “How can I convince people?” Well, I think you have to convince yourself that it’s not a problem. It doesn’t mean that it’s not going to be a problem for other people, but if you can convince yourself that it’s not a problem, then it increases the chances that you’ll find the one or two places or however many places where actually it’s not a problem. And the one or two people or the many more people who don’t see it as a problem, but if you go in with this is a problem, I know it’s a problem because of what’s happened in the past, then that’s what you’re going to convey. Okay, so a big piece of this, what you said around, you said, I need to let go of the feeling of really the fear of not getting the job. All right. And then you also mentioned what’s happened in the past. And so I think what’s happening is when you’re going into these interviews, you actually are not present to what’s happening in the here and now. You’re being pulled to the toxicity that you experience in the past with those disappointing bad bosses. And you’re also focused on what could potentially happen in the future, which is you don’t get the job. And both of those polls are taking away from the power that you can actually bring, the enthusiasm that you can bring in the present moment in that interview. The only thing that you can focus on right now is what user needs to show up in that interview. Is it the user from the past? Is it the user of the potential future or is it the user today? And if it’s the user today, then who’s that user? Your choice, you describe him. So, who’s that user? Let’s make believe we’re in an interview and you’re about to go in. Who’s the user who shows up? How do you want to experience yourself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m someone that to my personal, my academic and my professional experience as a leader in diversity and inclusion, mission driven organizations can partner with you to be where the job description says you would like someone to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But let me ask you this, user. Why you? Let’s think about, you want to do DEI work. Why you? What is that secret sauce that would make you want to hire you in a DEI role?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because I bring who I am, which is a unique combination for the role. I have a sterling academic credentials. And especially now with the growth of demand D&I professionals, I’m actually enrolling a program that combines the right elements to enable leaders to not only do it because they have practical experience in D&I, which I have in leadership from the early two thousands onward. But I have, as an immigrant, the cultural competencies that are needed to be able to show empathy and to convince both to have the buy-in internally from corporate or academic leadership where I’ll be working to see the importance of overcoming issues with the best intentions, people who have biases, how to deal with biases, for example. I have also the background which is unique not only being an immigrant, but coming from immigrants, which I think puts you in an advantageous position because it broadens your ability to understand and work through issues. As a dyslexic and being a leader in neurodiversity, I bring also something that I discussed with other neurodiverse leaders, which is that if they put somebody in a D&I position where they don’t come from a minority background, Hispanic and that legacy of immigrants who came to Latin America and who have to build their position in countries that were really not countries made of immigrants like the United States. So, you come knowing what it is to come from a marginalized position and then getting to the United States and making it through and really being a beneficiary as well as one who has opened opportunities for Hispanics, whether it’s students or professionals. That is a unique vantage point as somebody who has been successful having a disability. Somebody who comes from one of the very important segments of what BNI is as a Hispanic, and having the training both as an attorney and as a graduate, I would say really as a lifelong learner of international affairs from the standpoint of understanding how to achieve success with very different cultures and creating effective alliances. So that’s what I bring, it’s documented in my record and it’s also what I enjoy to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, all of that is your uniqueness, all of that is your differentiator. What distinguishes you. And yet it sounds like when you’ve gone into these interviews or what you’ve experienced so far is more a focus on what you lack rather than what you bring."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I would say it is what I describe of what I have, what I bring to the table. It’s there. Here, it’s harder for me to overcome the kind of freezing feeling of fear once I’m in the interview that it is just that way that you were describing or how to check it in the door and then come in fresh and not reflecting in the past or in the future in the here and now. I’m reminded that what FDR said of the worst thing to fear is fear itself. Fear is something that is there and it really would affect me when I’m trying to explain why I bring really unique characteristics that I shared with you and in the context of being overqualified, that’s an aspect that has a bit put me kind of out of space. I would feel that if somebody’s overqualified, it adds value. But that’s something that is a presumption to overcome. Dealing with that is just part of this package."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It is it, and I hear you trying to do a couple of things. One is how do I convince and sort of change people’s bias, which could be organizational, it could be the person sitting in front of you. And then on the other side of it is how do I manage my own bias for fear? But what is bias? Bias is you’re leaning into something, you lean into a particular side and what you’re leaning into is the fear. So, this is not to suggest that you get rid of fear. I heard you use those words, I just need to get rid of it. It’s not get rid of it. It’s acknowledging that it’s there and choosing that at least for the next 30 minutes of your interview, it’s not what you’re going to focus on and what you’re going to lead from because it doesn’t help you in that situation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, I think one is let go of the, I need to convince people. You don’t need to convince anybody else. That’s not the job. You need to represent yourself. And if it lands, it lands. If it doesn’t land, it doesn’t land. It wasn’t meant to land. But your mission is to represent yourself and your capabilities and your passion as effectively as possible. Okay? It’s like when you plant seeds, you try to get healthy seeds and then you hope you have healthy soil. And if you do have the chance to cultivate the soil, you cultivate the soil. But in this case, you don’t really have the chance to cultivate the soil. You’re just sort of throwing it out there, throwing the seeds out. But let’s make sure the seeds are healthy. And so how does that land with you in terms of what you bring to the table?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s very useful. So, my immediate reaction to that is that I bring to the table unique characteristics that are very advantageous for any of the roles that I mentioned. Whether in academia or in the private sector. It is a unique background that I can go into an organization and do a good fight and manage to have… My greater satisfaction would be that people like myself, whether because of being Hispanic, whether because of having any type of especially invisible disabilities, they can thrive and not have to be inauthentic. That would be for me the greatest. And I did it before, so I want to do it again. And that combination of an excellent professional record that is aligned with what is required in this position’s relationship building, cultural and international competencies, a knowledge of the organizational aspects of foundations of B and I that I have them. And that is definitely a competitive edge. And that’s what I have to focus here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I love the fact, because you told me you came from a competitive background and you have literally spent your whole life being somewhat of an outlier and in your own unique way in unconventional ways succeeding."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what’s interesting to me, user, is that kind of hasn’t changed. I think what’s sort of happening is as you are transitioning into or attempting to transition into a new career, you are positioning yourself or representing yourself as a “traditional candidate” or hoping that you’re accepted as somebody who can fit the exact mold of this role. But what you’ve always brought to the table is actually something that’s unique. That can add value in a different way."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. It’s nonconventional."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nonconventional. And so, what you just said around, do you see what you bring to the table as something that could actually give a competitive advantage to the organization, to the role? Do you believe that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And so what would it take for you to enter these conversations for new positions in a way where you demonstrate that belief?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Part of it is exactly what you said. That focusing on presenting myself rather than trying to do the check marking of how I fit the job description, that’s very important. That’s something that I can hold on, that it is simple, of course it’s also very profound, but it’s something good to keep in mind, which I had not before this conversation had, is the issue of the interview is for me to present myself rather than to sell myself. That’s a very good aspect that I think will inform and therefore help me both strategically and emotionally as to how I go in and not have this focus on fear, but rather let me introduce myself. And this is what I’ve done. I’ve done a lot of readings, which this is from advice to people who are looking for talent in these times. The post pandemic has a lot of opportunities open, and the focus on diversity and inclusion is no longer like the cherry on top of the ice cream. It’s a necessity both from its business case as well as morally, politically. That is where corporations that are succeeding should be. And I am a good catalyst for bringing about the day to day. And I’ve developed a very good vision that is supported by my personal background, which has, I said this to a friend, I’m three for the price of one. I’m Hispanic, I’m dyslexic, and as an immigrant, which itself comes with all that intersection of qualities. I came with that strength of being immigrant of immigrants and having that capacity to be a cultural chameleon, to be able to read the cultural landscape."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What I sense is in your story or how you position yourself is you have the passion around DEI, which is informed by your lived experience, so that’s one pillar. You have leadership skills that may not have happened in a DEI role, but that are transferable, relationship building, being able to see the landscape, be able to think strategically, be all of the sort of some general leadership skills. Again, transferable even though you may not have experienced them specifically in this type of role. And then I think the third pillar, which we haven’t talked about yet is, are you positioning those two things, lived experience and passion, as transferable leadership skills? Are you positioning them in the right context? Meaning are you seeking out roles and organizations where what you have to offer from those two pillars is relevant?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how do you know this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I know this because it comes both objectively and just emotional intelligence that I read a job description and I’m like, this is excellent. This is something I would… Speaking hypothetically, if I could do it as a volunteer, this is what I would love to do. So, I’m not positioning myself in situations and not just applying like should at will, and I’m benefiting that still. Now, there are plenty of positions, and it was not just my love for diversity, equity, and inclusion that have guided me into already a year ago going into this two year program parallel to continuing my practice. But it’s really because there is a growing need for this type of professionals, and I’m always halfway way in the job descriptions because of who I am and then my credentials, academic and professionally support that. So, I am positioning myself thanks to the availability of open positions, D& I to those positions. The fact that I haven’t been successful is a different story."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, we’ve already established probably a big part of why you haven’t been successful is because of how you’ve entered those conversations. I will say though, when I just asked you this question and you showed me the piece of paper and you said yes. I look at the position and how it’s written and it’s exactly what I want. That’s just a piece of paper. That is also their check the box. What we’re uncertain of just by the piece of paper is what’s the internal, what’s the gut of the organization? What’s the culture of the organization? What’s the actual need that they have, that intangible need that you could make a difference in? Let’s take a quick breather here because we’re starting to get further clarity on the questions that user needs to answer in order to be able to tactically land the role he desires. And these questions are not unique to him. They’re the ones that I encourage many of my clients to explore when they consider any role transition. The first is how are you positioning yourself? Are you walking in with the energy that you would want to experience from the candidate if you were on the hiring end? Second, where are you positioning yourself? What is the cultural landscape and the DNA of the place? And third, is there a match between what you uniquely offer and what the organization not only needs, but actually wants? Let’s dive back in as I asked user about how he is currently leveraging those three things as he seeks out new roles in organizations."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m a hundred percent with you and doing more homework in terms of finding out what you can find out behind the job description, behind the website or an organization. It’s ultimately you have to do it. It’s something you cannot elude if you’re going to do your homework on it. But I think I can give myself more time after this conversation, what I’m getting out of it in trying to do more intelligence work in finding out that they are real in what they’re looking in diversity. And if they are not, do they have the sincere desire to change?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I think what’s happening here is that you are getting clearer around, Hey, I bring an unconventional profile to a DEI role, which means that it probably is worthy that I look for organizations who also want to take an unconventional approach to DEI."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s very good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But if you are saying, hey, it would be… I mean, think about it on the flip side, Let’s just choose a different topic. Let’s say I’m a conventional CFO, but I go and I’m looking for roles and I’m interviewing at places who want to take a very unconventional approach. Probably CFO’s probably not a good example because we don’t want to be too unconventional when it comes to finances, but there could be creative financing or whatnot, then it’s a mismatch. Okay? So, I think step number one is who is VICTOR in what he brings in terms of passion and experience? And then is he offering those things in the spaces that can actually hold that, that are worthy of what you bring to the table?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, there’s a little bit of me, user, that kind of says, I don’t know. I mean, maybe you give yourself some grace, give yourself some credit in the fact that some of those situations that didn’t pan out and you didn’t get the offer might have been a silver lining from repeating some of the experiences that you’ve had in the past. We don’t know. Take a look at yourself and what’s your story and what do you need to bring to the table, et cetera. But also understand that you also need to be looking at them and saying, what are they bringing to the table? What is this organization doing? How are they going to treat me when I come in here? What kind of change do they want to make? What kind of impact do they want to make? And is it aligned with the way that I want to lead, the way I want to work, what I have to bring to the table and the impact that I want to make? So, I think what you’re looking for is alignment. And in order to really be able to identify that alignment, you’ve got to be aligned with yourself first."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, this is very useful for me and I think that you can share this situation that if you read job descriptions for professionals, diversity, equity, inclusion, some of them look like they copy and paste from others because it’s just what best corporation, that conversation that I had, you are an attorney, why would you like to go into HR? And these are people who, if you read their job description, the organization is presenting themselves so well. But it just reinforces my suspicious of this is just a copy and paste because they need to have somebody in the storefront of DEI."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And so, what we want to bring this back to kind of the beginning of our conversation, let’s make sure that you’re not copying and pasting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s very good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How you describe yourself and how you position yourself and you’re also not copying and pasting your past experiences in terms of how you feel into what you’re experiencing in the present moment for that interview. No copying and pasting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or the positive one is that I’ve had tremendous success in the past and just there’s this footnote of having fall into a handsome bad management for a couple of years that derailed me, but I’m in the right path."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, let me ask you a question, user. I don’t know, maybe I’m going to like out myself here. Do you read every footnote? In everything that you read?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, I loved that you described the negative past experiences that you had that have had an impact on you in terms of emotionally what you’re going through here as footnotes. What are footnotes meant to do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s just if you need more detail, but they’re not the essential part should be in the main text."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, treat it as that we’re not going to redline them out. I’m using your language now because you’re an attorney. Right. We’re not going to redline it out, we’re going to leave it, but it’s a footnote. It’s a detail that you rely on if you need it, and clearly we’ve established you don’t need that footnote in these interviews."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very good. Very good. Thank you. I mean, it’s a very refreshing and different frame that I feel. I mean, it’s not only the information that goes through the intellect, but I feel that can be a game changer for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. In what way do you think the feeling has changed for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The feeling has changed in how our conversation began where I was sharing with you how the day was cloud with very gray clouds and the clouds are how that footnote that those falling into the hands of bad managers school. This person told me in my face, for example, I don’t have a secretary, why should you, that thought dyslexia was just an excuse to break away with that in clearing to a beautiful blue skylight, what we have today, is that one as much as it looks very nice in paper, it may not be the organization and the people that I would like to work for. And second that I do cherish and I have to be able to bring that forth, those unique characteristics, those very relevant, transferable skills. And that should be what informs my narrative and that bring not being uncomfortable to say, “Look, I’ve succeeded through unconventional means, but rather this is really the deck of cards that I’ve been dealt with and I’ve really squeezed every benefit from them”, and especially because of being really the way that I’ve dealt with those setbacks is actually just a glimpse into the potential that I breathe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Exactly. Oh my goodness. You’ve inspired me."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that’s good"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, thank you. Thank you. I think we can land here. I think we can close here."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When user came into the coaching meeting, he was questioning his ability to move into a new role and into a new career. Given his background and at this stage of his professional life, by the end of our conversation, he shifted from viewing those things as obstacles to overcome to what makes him a differentiated candidate who can really add value for the right organization and his ability to make that shift was not new for user. It’s a strategy he’s used his whole life. My role as his coach was to just help him figure out how to use it in this situation. Not everyone will relate to user’s place in life as someone more advanced in his career or as someone who’s neurodivergent. But there truly are lessons here for anyone who has tried to transition into a new role. Or on the flip side, those who might be in a hiring position trying to decide whether a candidate is right for a role. The simple question of asking how is diversity, a strength and value add in this role rather than an obstacle, is what can make the world of difference in how they move forward. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Want more of Coaching Real Leaders? Join our community where I host live discussions to unpack the coaching sessions. Become a member at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find me and my newsletter on LinkedIn @ coach AI. Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe, sound editor, Nick Crnko, music composer, Brian Campbell, my assistant Emily Sofa and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you our listeners who share in their journeys. If you are dealing with our leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show next season. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com and of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward, share it with your friends, subscribe, and leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. From HBR presents, I’m coach AI. Until next time, be well."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "He’s had fast success in a sales-driven industry and enjoys leading his expanding team. But as his responsibilities grow, he needs to learn how to delegate to his team more and empower his direct reports. Host Muriel Wilkins coaches him through how to adapt his leadership style as his team grows."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call user to protect his confidentiality. He’s been working in a sales driven retail sector for over a decade."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I started at the bottom end, stuck with the same company for six years, slowly working my way up that food chain and ended up in a general sales manager role which, in our industry, is commonly the second person in command in any one division."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A few years ago, user was given the opportunity to lead a division and he significantly increased its revenue. That success led him to take over an even bigger division about a year ago where he now holds an executive role. It involves a very different skill set than what helped him rise up the ranks in the first place."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Almost all of the entry level positions in this industry are individual production based, commission based. What happens a lot is people get really good at earning for themselves, and the first typical one, two, three steps up the ladder of hierarchy are still individual production, just producing different results with different products, different people. And a big point of failure in our industry, or at least in my opinion in our industry, is when you get to the level when you’re a manager of people. But all up until then, you’ve been only responsible for your own production."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user has had success on both levels in his career, as an individual contributor and also now as a leader of teams. But he’s wondering how he can keep scaling up that leadership and grow even more. I wanted to better understand how he’d made it happen so far. Let’s dive in. As you said, you started from the bottom and rose up, reminds me of that Drake song – “started from the bottom now we’re here,” right? So now you’re here."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep. That’s my life story. That’s my life story."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s your life story. Okay. Now you’re here. What do you attribute to your rise and your success in your career so far?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I feel like a big turning point for me was I took that role seriously about developing people around me and getting results through them. And was able to really slough off the, it’s about me and what I can do mentality that, in my own words just plagues the management in our industry. So, that was a big turning point for a younger guy, getting a shot at managing a small team to really spend most of my time investing in developing them rather than just what I could produce individually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And when you made that shift in terms of going from an individual contributor to a people manager and that differentiating you? What were some of the things that you focused on that helped you make that shift effectively?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know if I have a great answer to that. I remember a conversation with a mentor of mine that had been with me for those first two or three steps. He told me, “You have to think about the other person first, what you can get for them than just watch the byproduct for you.” And that was a tough thing for me to rationalize being in an industry that’s measured fiscally monthly on individual performance and try to think, “Man, if I work with this person and I see them really successful. I may not reap that benefit for a couple weeks, months, maybe several months.” That was a challenging thing for me, but that was one of the things I learned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. That’s interesting you say that. I often think about, particularly in an industry like yours, where even being an individual contributor is very commission based. It’s sort of eat what you kill, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you move to a people manager role as you did, and you think about the advice that your mentor gave you, and you really go from being the lone wolf, eat what you kill to becoming more of a gardener where you have to cultivate and wait, or a farmer and wait for the harvest, not knowing if it’s ever going to come, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, it sounds like you were able to do that when you moved into managing this initial group. So, fast forward to now, how many people do you manage?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, in my division that I lead, I have 113 employees. They are not direct reports to me. I have five direct reports to me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So, it’s increased in complexity in terms of the number of people?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Significantly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Significantly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Within those five direct reports, those are all separate departments with separate revenue streams that funnel up to the top. So, it’s definitely complex."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What I really want to spend time working through is I seem to hit this same roadblock over and over in this role, and I need to give you a little bit of background on the difference in my last very successful position on the one now that is going relatively successful, but I have a thirst to be more successful. So, in the last division, we doubled revenue and kept fixed costs and headcounts flat. And that was with a team of 50 and one brick and mortar building. So, I tell everyone that job, even though it’s the same job I have now is different, because I could touch every employee in 10 minutes and I could get involved with things at much higher frequency. So, the ability to just handle most everything with those people was part of it. In this division there’s no possibility to be everywhere at once. And so, I’ve got to manage through the direct reports, and I do consider myself a very effective delegator. I really have studied that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. I wish more people would come to that realization that you just came to, right? Which is, it’s impossible to scale the business if you are involved at that level. So, just to replay, just to make sure I’m grasping where you’re at right now. You are now leading a more complex organization. Not only has it grown in size in terms of the number of people, but even physically it’s a little bit more complex to handle. So, it’s difficult for you to try to have that hands on approach that potentially you had in the past. And even though you effectively delegate, what you’re finding is that your direct reports or some of the people on your team are still coming to you to seek guidance, and inevitably it leads to you providing your perspective, which tends to weigh on them heavily. Is that right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, your hope is that you can get to a place where they can come up with their own solutions and act independently. So, that they’re not overly reliant on you and it frees you up to do more of whatever it is that you feel you need to do."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, let’s pick it up from there. If this was not happening, if they were not coming and asking for guidance, what do you envision you would be doing? What would that be replaced with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would be doing a lot of, probably relationship building with just all the staff, but then also vendor partners, and then doing things that are going to help us scale, like recruiting or marketing our business to customers and employees. And then obviously measuring and passing results and targets."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And how much of that are you doing now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’d say a fair amount. It’s not as much as I’d like to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There’s a big opportunity for people in my role to get in front of some new recruits and career path people, and really build relationships and develop them. And I’m not able to do that because I am pretty parasitically drawn to part of production."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I’m asking that question because I think it’s important to understand and commit to what would replace the time that’s now being spent with your team. If not, you just end up in a void and you just keep doing what you’ve been doing, right? So, you have a clear sense of how you would be spending that time. I mean, it’s very concrete. You could even calendar it in, right? So, that you know what you’re headed to. So, let’s explore what’s happening now. What do you think is getting in the way of some of the folks you’re dealing with independently coming up with solutions?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the first thing that comes to mind is I am always willing to listen and help. I may not always be available, but I will make time later or schedule time to help them. I think the second thing that’s probably causing that not to happen is, I don’t know, maybe I haven’t specifically said, “Hey, kind of doctrine of completed staff work style. You need to have this idea put together before you ask for my opinion.” Maybe I haven’t cast that well. But other than that, I don’t what’s getting in the way of them doing that. I could say also just maybe, like I said in the beginning, most people are individual producers and the individual producers become people managers. And maybe they’re thinking to narrow like, “Okay. What do I do?” One of my direct reports has 40 employees of a zone. I mean, you don’t necessarily have to be a part of most of that at that level. So, maybe it’s some training, or some education as to where what I’m counting on them to do or not do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, user, I feel like you’re coming up with your own answer, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I felt that way. I felt that way. It’s because of your good question."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s because of the question. Hey, I always ask the question. I often don’t know the answer, but I like your answers, right? What you reflected here is when you said, “Maybe I haven’t said or cast that well, that I need them to come.” So, the first is, have you set the expectation that that’s what you want them to do, right? And then the second thing that you mentioned is, I can’t remember the exact wording, but basically like, are they capable of doing it? Do they have the skill to be able to come up with these solutions and present them to you in a way that then you can get into problem solving? And then there’s a third layer that I would add which is, do they want to do that, right? Which is what we call commitment. Let’s take a pause here. It’s clear to me that user understands what he wants from his team. He has some thoughts on how to approach them, but he’s feeling unsure about whether it’s the right approach, and he’s looking for me to give him the answer. While I could do that, my sense is that what will help him in the long run is to provide some framing to his thought process. A series of questions that will enable him to coach himself through these types of situations. And the first thing for him to consider are his expectations, because so many times we expect certain results from others and yet we’ve never told them what we expect. I was curious if that was the case with user and his direct reports. Let’s pick the conversation back up as I explore this with him. Nobody else can set the expectation but you as the leader. So, what is the expectation that you have or have not set as it regards to ultimately enabling them to be more independent in driving to solutions?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s a really good question. I feel like I’ve done a very good job of letting everyone know where their level of empowerment lies. I would say with some confidence that everyone knows what is a permission item and what’s a forgiveness item. I feel like I have not done a very good job of maybe asking or really clarifying when you have a roadblock on your plan, or on the way to achieving the results we’re counting on you to achieve. You need to touch these people or references and come to me with some potential solutions, maybe that is what I need to work through."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And let me push that a little further. Let’s say I’m one of your employees and you’re now giving me that expectation. What would that look like for you? How do you think I can present it in a way that would be most effective for the exchange that needs to happen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don’t know if I could formalize that so quickly on the spot, but just casually, I would say something to the effect of, “I hear you have a problem. Who have you spoken to about this already? What material have you searched through? Have you looked at historical decisions like this and how they’ve gone?” And then I would probably say, “If the answer were no to one or all of those, so let’s work on this together now. But next time I’m going to be counting on you to make sure you’ve really vetted out everything you can possibly do before you tag me into the problem. Always willing to help, but I want to make sure we use the resources that you have first.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, when I asked you that it was just for you to start getting some practice in terms, what’s the template that you can set to underlie the expectation that you’re going to ask around them being able to come to you with potential solutions? I mean, what you’re really asking for is that you want, I’ve heard this term used by one of my former client’s bosses when he was struggling with the same thing except the direct report he had was my client. And what he said was, “I need him to be a problem solver not an issue spotter,” and the issue spotter are the ones who are great at raising their hands and saying, “There’s an issue. There’s an issue. There’s an issue,” without necessarily saying, “Oh, and I’ve also thought about here are the three different ways that we could deal with this issue.” And what I’m coming to you with, user, is three options for you to react to rather than putting the onus on you to actually come up with the solution. Okay? Do you get the differentiation there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. That made a lot of sense. I just wrote that down, a problem solver, not an issue spotter."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But in your role, what would be really helpful is to help them understand what that looks like in real time. So, it would be helpful to you to really clarify, think about past situations that you’ve been in where one of your direct reports has come to workshop a problem. What would’ve made that situation more helpful, more conducive to get to a place where they’re using you to really react and get to the final end point rather than necessarily process through the whole thing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, what you’re suggesting is have, whatever process, but just have some type of fundamental I can template onto everybody, “Hey, when you have a problem, come with X, Y, Z,” and that’s just my thing I always ask for."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think you can come up with a framework that is going to help make those discussions more productive on both ends. And what I mean by that is I’m going back to the goals that you articulated in terms of, if this was in place, if this was not a roadblock, what would be happening? And what you said is it would free up your time. You can deal with the higher level executive stuff you have to deal with, and it would continue to build your direct reports capacity to lead at the level at which they’re at without overly relying on you. So, there’s basically scale being built on both ends. So, whatever you come up with has to benefit on both ends."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I understand."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s not just for your benefit. And when I use the term framework, framework is really a guideline. It’s like you’ve got to stick to this all the time, but it gives them some guardrails which support the expectation that you have."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So, the first level is expectations, then we go to this next piece that you brought up, which is around what is their capability of doing this, right? What’s the skill level that they have? When you look across your direct reports, how do you assess the level of skill and capability that they have currently to operate at the problem solving level that you’re expecting?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. I don’t have a good answer to how to assess that. I mean, I suppose being more cognizant of how and when they approach me with problems. Is it very early on? Is it a little bit later? That’s probably a good measurement, but I’d probably lean on your expertise to help me work through that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When I coach someone, it’s not only about asking questions, sometimes it’s also about giving them a structure that they can use to think through their situation more concretely. That way they’re picking up a tool that they can use in the future and they don’t have to recreate the wheel each and every time. In user’s case, he keeps asking for my answer or my expertise as he calls it, but I’m not here to be an expert on his people. He knows his people. What I can do is give him a little training within the coaching conversation. I realized that teaching user a little bit about the situational leadership framework and how he can apply it to his team would be really helpful to him. Paul Hersey and Ken Blanchard created the situational leadership framework quite a while back, but in my opinion, it still stands a test of time. And so, I use it here to help user structure his approach. Let’s jump back in now to look deeper at the expectations he has for his team and how realistic they are. The question in of itself is something also that you need to pay attention to and anything that you’re expecting of your leaders, right? What is your assessment of where they are right now from a capability standpoint? Why? Because if you have an expectation and their capability doesn’t match that expectation, something’s got to change. Either their skill level needs to go up or your expectation needs to go down, right? Because when there’s a gap between the two, that’s where the frustration will ensue on both ends. So, we’ve already calibrated what your expectation is. Now you’ve got to look at their skill level and say, “Is it even realistic that they can meet that expectation? How do you do that?” The first is, have they ever done this before? Not maybe exactly that, but do you have any line of sight in terms of experience that they’ve had in the past that gives you some evidence that they should be capable of doing what you’re asking them to do? And again, doesn’t have to be exact, it can be analogous."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. So, can I ask a clarifying question on that? I want to go a little deeper on that. So, back to how most people end up in these roles is from being successful in individual production. As you were saying that, I was thinking about the direct reports I have and what they’re capable of doing. And I feel very strongly that all of them are the best of the best at everything their direct reports do. Maybe the capability is in actually the people management side and that I don’t know how to identify, “Have you done this before?” And what if the answer is no?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, the first is an assessment of what they have done, right? And in what way does it relate to what you’re expecting of them? And it doesn’t mean if they haven’t done it, that it’s like, “Oh my gosh, we’re done,” right? Doesn’t mean that at all. It just is one data point so that you can know what the baseline is. And if they haven’t done it, then that’s what we then call, it’s an untested area. We don’t know if they’ve done it or not, okay? We don’t know yet. And so, you now have to provide opportunity for them to be able to flex their muscle in that particular area. So, let’s say one of them is in problem solving, you’re not giving them the opportunity to even test out and grow in that area if you’re swooping in and doing it for them, right? And you’re not even swooping in, they’re pulling you in. And so, again, number one, have they done it? Yes. No. No? Okay. Untested. Now I’ve got to give them an opportunity. How do I do that? Next time they come to me and say, “This is something I’m working through.” Goes back to what you said earlier, you might need to not be so willing, not because you don’t care, but for the sake of their growth and their development to be able to say, “I’m happy to help, but not yet. I would like you to do this on your own.” How does that land with you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It feels very unfamiliar."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In what way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. It feels, yeah, like 20 grit sandpaper. Very rough. I understand try not to do too much and let them have a chance to try it on their own and encourage them to do that and stay out of it. Maybe somebody comes to me and says, “Hey, I’ve got this issue,” and they are more capable and they say, “Here’s a couple ways I’m thinking of solving this. What’s your opinion?” And we volley back and forth, and I encourage them to talk out which one they’re in favor of and then support that, right? So, I don’t just give them what I would do, I just help them like you’re helping me evaluate their decisions and they come to the conclusion. What would happen if I know that that’s not going to be a fruitful way of doing that? How would I handle that? I’ll give you a real world example. There is a direct report of mine who has an excellent track record, was with me at the other division. I’ve seen him grow and develop. He definitely is committed, very capable. He is asking me to help him with solving a problem for the first time he’s encountered it, and that is terminating an employee. He’s never had to do that, but we’re at the point where he is got to do that, and he has pulled me into that, “I really feel like you should be here. I got to have you involved in this.” And putting HR formalities aside, we have other people who could be there with him, but he has no experience doing that. And that’s a pretty high stakes problem to solve wrong. So, how do I help them in really high stake situations like that by staying out of it? Do I put a resource with them that’s an expert but it’s not me? Or do I do the first one thing, whatever it is, may not be terminating employee as serious as that, but do I do a little bit of it with them? Help me understand that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Once again, I think you’re coming up with your own answers, right? I think there’s a gradient. It’s never going to be black or white. The critical thing that you said here though that I think you can hold is, how high are the stakes? Meaning, how risky is this decision we’re about to make? So, as the leader of that organization, you are also the manager of risk. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, you can ascertain or discern or make a judgment call around what are the issues relative to risk that really warrant your involvement versus those where you can back off a little bit. So, that then you feel that you’re creating development opportunities for them, learning opportunities for them where, if things go wrong, yeah, it might hurt a little bit, but it ain’t that bad. But only you can make that discernment, and so you have to assess it. And I think what we’re coming up with is criteria for you to determine how involved you should be. One of them is, how capable is the person? The second is situational, what are the stakes of this situation? What’s the level of risk associated with it? Well, the higher the level of risk and the lower the skill of the individual, the more of user we need."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. But something where the risk and skill are matched maybe just untested, but the risk and skill are matched, let them try it out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Why not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "If it goes wrong, it may sting, but it’s not going to sting for super long. And that’s the judgment call I have to make."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right. Because if not, what you’re creating is a term that we call learned helplessness, right? I don’t know if you’re familiar with that term."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m not until just now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think it means?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Exactly what the two words mean is I’m teaching them to go on about their day, and when they need something, come get me and I’ll do it for them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right. That’s right. I mean, how does that serve you, ALEX, in any way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It really doesn’t except for it creates a lot of unexpected upward delegation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And takes me out of doing important things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. What’s interesting to me is that that model worked for you in the past because as you said, the scope was smaller. It’s probably where you drew a lot of your own cell value in terms of what you brought to the table to your team. But now as your organization has grown, you’re realizing, “Oh my gosh, what used to be comfortable is now uncomfortable because it’s keeping me from adding value,” right? So, what was a value add before potentially now is a value drainer for you. So, it’s not to say that you never help your people, that’s not what we’re saying at all. It just means that it looks different. And as much as you have to level up, they need to level up as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I understand that. I really understand that. May I bounce the situation off of you that occurred recently? I’m listening to what you’re saying and I feel like maybe the process I already understand, I just am not executing it at a high level every time. I had a direct report and his direct report, there’s a couple layers of management in that area, have an issue with an employee that I would consider high risk if they were to resign. A key player, a player, and they approached me and said, “We know that we need to restore the trust in this relationship with this individual. It’s broken. We need to keep him on the team and we need to do it in a way that works for him and us. Can you help us understand how we would, some best practices to do that with this individual?” We set up a time, and I walk them through some good questions to ask themselves before going into that discussion. Help them learn just in general through my experiences, when people take things super seriously and when they don’t, what does that language look like? What’s the setting look like? And then said, “Well, why don’t you all let me know when you’re going to do that and then let me know how it went.” And I feel like reflecting on that situation, I did a pretty good job of assessing, “Hey, this is a pretty high risk situation. These two individuals happen to also be very capable.” So, they really don’t need me to do it. They may just need me to help them think through it. Is that where you were going with that practice?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I think it’s where you’re going. Because what you just articulated there is you didn’t delegate fully and you weren’t super directive. You didn’t tell them, “Well, here are the three things I need you to do.” What you did is you coached them as a manager, not coach like how I coach. But you basically were using coaching skills as a manager by asking them questions, by helping them process through it until they could come up with their own answer, and potentially you weigh in on that answer. And so again, we can go back to this is very situational, right? There is no one check the box, this is what I do every single time. Are they confident to be able to complete the task? And do they have a willingness, how motivated are they to complete the task? And depending where they are on either of those two levers is how you then approach them as a manager. So, if they are highly capable and highly committed, what do you think you can do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just help them come to their own conclusion."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You just delegate it, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If they are low capability, so low skill, but have a level of commitment, right? What do you think you need to do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably teach them the skills or work with them to raise their skill level."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right. So, you will be more directive. And then anything in between, you are being supportive and/or you are coaching, and coaching is what you described in that situation. So, for you, what you need to be able to do consistently is assess, assess, assess. And depending on what you’re assessing, that’s how you approach it rather than having a one size fits all in terms of your approach."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That makes good sense. We’ve talked a lot about capability. What about the situation where someone’s capable but not committed?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "How would you work with someone like that? I’ve faced that situation recently where it’s, “Hey, I have this person and there’s an issue and I just want to just let them go.” Because there’s so much apathy, and they know they could coach through and work with them. How do I get them to that level? Is that expectation setting?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, let’s work through that, right? So, this falls in the realm of being more coaching them and being supportive. And so, what is it that’s causing them to not be committed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. I would venture to say they just do not want to deal with it because it’s a problem. I don’t think I asked enough questions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What made you not ask those questions?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "What made me not ask those questions? Just quite frankly is this person very rarely even comes to me for assistance with anything and performs at a high level. And my reflecting, which you are doing a phenomenal job of making me do, I think what was going through my mind is, “Out of my five direct reports, this person is the least of my efforts and they perform at a high level. They could just be having a bad day. Let me just handle this for them.” Maybe doing them a favor is what was coming through my mind rather than probing a little deeper."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, what’s your goal with your people?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I want to provide them with skill and experience and meet with time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, all I would ask is, is your action and we can look at that particular situation aligned with the goal."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably not. Actually, definitely not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, it’s not a right or wrong, or a good or bad, right? It’s just alignment. There’s nothing wrong with doing somebody a favor, but I think there were a lot of assumptions baked into that. So, I’d say the first thing is check your assumptions. I think the question that you said like, why don’t you want to call this person? What’s going on? What are you concerned about? So that you could understand what’s at the root of what you are seeing or interpreting as potential lack of commitment. If you don’t understand what’s at the root of it, it’s very hard to try to motivate the person. You don’t know what you’re motivating. So, again, it’s not black or white. You’re literally having to discern and make a judgment call all along the way. What I want you to be aware of though is the actions that you can take in service of growing and developing your people, which is your ultimate goal, so that it can also create some leverage for you is the action that you’re then taking. What’s the action that you’re taking that’s most aligned with that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, back to just assess, assess, assess?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned, “Well, what happens if somebody is just not committed at all?” You’ve tried to understand what motivates them, you’ve tried to motivate them and you just can’t get at it, right? Or on the flip side, the skill, you’ve tried to teach the skill, you’ve sent them to training, you’ve provided all the resources so that they can build the skill, and that skill is just not being built. Then you have a decision to make. Is that person sitting in the right seat on the bus? Because that also is your responsibility."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s like when your kids choose a sport, and then you’re watching them play that sport and you’re like, “Oh my god. Not the right sport for them,” right? Or an instrument. At some point it’s like, maybe the interest needs to lie somewhere else."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Unless they enjoy it. They’re highly motivated, that’s great, but that’s only going to get them so far. Just like skill is going to get you but so far you also have to have the motivation. That’s what you want to be constantly looking for over the long term. So far in our coaching conversation, user has made it very clear what his problem is and how he’s been thinking about it. He’s motivated to do better, not just at delegating, but at really scaling up his leadership. And we’ve talked through some specific scenarios as to times when he’s swooped in to handle something, instead of prodding someone he manages a bit deeper and guiding them into finding their answers themselves. It’s a classic move that leaders need to make to learn to level up, to shift away from directly solving problems themselves. But as with any new muscle you need to build, there’s some discomfort. To lead sustainably, he’ll need to use this muscle on repeat rather than do it once and think he’s done. But if he’s not careful, he could let the discomfort get in the way. Let me ask you this, because when we first started talking about this, and I think I said, “Oh, you need to have these conversations,” it was a specific conversation and you said, “Yeah. That feels like,” I forget what you called it, but like sandpaper, it felt rough or uncomfortable. What was uncomfortable about it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "What’s uncomfortable is hearing you say this, when I think about capable and committed, I already am capable and I’m already committed enough to do this. I just simply haven’t been doing it. And when you said that, that’s what felt rough to me is, Wow, I have known this all along and simply have not practiced self-discipline or enough restraint to execute at a high level."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, when you say that it means that you have certain expectations of yourself."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That you should have done this. You’re learning, you said you’re thirsty to learn and grow. And so, there is no, I should have known this, if you’re a learner. And one of the things that you can model to your team members is what it looks like to be a leader who’s committed to learning and growing, because that’s what you’re hoping they’re doing. If what you model instead is that you already have the answer and you should know the answer, what do you think is going to happen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They’re going to come to me for the answer every time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what is happening?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. That’s funny. You said earlier expectations have to match. What did you say? Your expectations have to match?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I said a lot of things, I don’t know."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. You said your expectations have to match what they’re able to do based on their level of capability and commitment, I think is what you said, right? I hear a lot of people say to me, “Your expectations are too high. Your expectations are too high.” And I have those expectations for myself that are super high, like you just said. And I think that’s a good takeaway for me is really assess that gap. Because they’re part of the reason we’re here today is the frustration that’s coming from that gap."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Okay. And frustration, you might have heard me say this other times, frustration always comes from the gap between what you expect and the reality of what’s happening. And until you can come to terms with both, unless you are very well managed, frustration ensues. Now, does that mean you just have to have low standards for your people? Or just say, “Oh, well it is what it is, this is how they’re going to be.” No, right? You want to see them for where they are. You have to accept the skill level at which they’re at, so that then you can decide what to do. It’s not just so that you can say, “Oh, well that’s where they’re at,” right? It’s so that then you can decide what to do. You have to see it for what it is. Okay? And so, that’s one piece and that’s what’s happening presently. And at the same time as the leader, you have to hold the belief of what they’re capable of in the future, and that’s their potential. So, where there is a risk of you getting really frustrated is expecting them to be fulfilling their future potential today. That’s what we call magical thinking. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I do a lot of magical thinking."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Don’t we all. Don’t we all."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s exact issue. Where my frustration lies is I expect everybody to hold themselves to the high standards I have for myself. And so, then I cast that on them. And most people are just not… can’t think that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "My sense is, user, that you probably want to see yourself as a leader who inspires not intimidates, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don’t get the sense from you that you intimidate in terms of your demeanor or your tone, but your knowledge might be so intimidating. Your ability to have the answer might be unconsciously intimidating to people that they would rather come to you to the answer than risk coming to you not knowing. And so, what do you think you could do that would make others feel more comfortable coming to you not knowing exactly what the answer is, but willing to take a risk that they will suggest a solution?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s a great way to put that. I’ve never thought about it that way, but that is exactly what is occurring is people are coming to me because I’m such a wealth of knowledge. They are so afraid to think anything other than what I’ve already thought. And I think to answer your question, maybe leading by example, like you said, and being maybe more visible about I’m working on, or I’m learning, or I don’t know everything is important. Maybe encouraging them that I’d rather see them learn on their own than come to me with the answer. And if there’s a rough journey to get there, that’s okay. I’ll be with them on the journey. But I’d rather them learn for themselves, and just really make that apparent to them that I’m not grading you on your decision if you do not know, I’ll be grading you on your level of commitment to learn."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So, what you’re talking about, user, is two things, okay? One is you want to be explicit about creating some safety for them to learn, which is almost the same as safety for them to fail. And so ,what are the conditions that you can put in place, or what are the things you can say, what are the actions you can take that create an environment, a culture of safety for real learning to happen? Because real learning doesn’t happen without mistakes, real learning doesn’t happen without some missteps, some backsliding, et cetera. So, that’s one, and you have to think about that from a cultural standpoint, what it is that you’re doing in your organization. I think the second thing is at an individual level when you said, “Hey, I need to lead by example.” And so, the question for you is, How do you demonstrate to your people day in, day out that you also are a learner – that you don’t have everything figured out all the time? And I think that’s really a personal thing because even here on this call, when we hit that one little piece where you were like, “That’s uncomfortable.” And I said, “What’s uncomfortable?” And you’re like, “I should have known that. I should have done it.” Well, you didn’t, you’re a learner. And so, getting comfortable with not knowing something or not doing something is your path that actually demonstrates that you’re learning. And the more you can demonstrate that to your people, the more they’re going to realize, “Oh wow, here’s a guy I look up to. If he’s willing to learn, maybe I can do that too.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I understand."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You understand and? I hear a little hesitation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I still have that, I should have done it in the back of my mind. But you’re exactly right, I’ve got to start looking inside and providing myself with a little bit of grace, and then be open about and vulnerable enough to express that so people feel more comfortable doing that around me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Look, user, I think if you can actually, rather than starting practicing that on your employees. If you can start practicing that on yourself, like treat yourself the way that we just talked about you should treat your employees, you will have a much higher chance of being able to do it out there with them. Okay? You’re going to have a really hard time cutting them some slack, extending them a little bit of grace when they don’t necessarily meet the “expectation” if you’re not able to do it with yourself. And just because you cut yourself some slack does not mean you’re not holding yourself up to high expectations. The two are not mutually exclusive. It’s, I hold myself up and I hold my team up to high expectations, and I support the fact that they’re learning. It’s both."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That makes a tremendous amount of sense to me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, let me ask you this. What is one thing that you are walking away with from this conversation that you think you can start implementing immediately?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the most important thing I can start working on as a learner is the last thing that you just said, and that’s getting comfortable being a learner myself first. But the thing I could implement right now is starting to look at the reason we’re on this call today through the lens of, do expectations match capability and commitment? And out of those three, if they’re not all in alignment, where is the misalignment? And then attack it from that angle. That’s something I feel comfortable doing. I have to do it using that lens. And I will, beginning today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great. You haven’t been using it yet."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you’re going to start today. All right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Terrific. Well, listen, thank you. Thank you so much. I look forward to hearing how all of this goes for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I appreciate it. Thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When it comes to scaling your leadership, it’s not just about the number of people you’re overseeing, or how much revenue you’re responsible for, or the processes you put in place. Those are the concrete things. But scaling leadership is really about scaling others, helping them build their capacity. Because if they can’t take it to the next level, neither will you. For user, he’s been so used to figuring things out for his team that it’ll take a real change and approach for them to start figuring it out on their own. But he enabled the dynamic, so he has to take ownership and responsibility in helping them get there, and build a team culture where being a proactive problem solver is the norm. By leveling up his own leadership, he’ll role model to his team how they can do the same. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Want more of Coaching Real Leaders? Join our community where I host live discussions to unpack the coaching sessions. Become a member at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find me and my newsletter on LinkedIn at coach AI. Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe; sound editor, Nick Crnko; music composer, Brian Campbell; my assistant, Emily Sofa, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. If you are dealing with our leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show next season, apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward, share it with your friends, subscribe and leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. From HBR Presents, I’m coach AI. Until next time, be well."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "He sees himself as a servant leader and enjoys building and supporting his teams. But over time, he’s seen behavior from more senior leaders that he doesn’t always agree with, and it’s making him feel disengaged at work. Host Muriel Wilkins coaches him through how he can respond when executives don’t model the company’s values."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call user to protect his confidentiality, he’s been in his current leadership role for several years, helping to support a number of teams across a diverse region."}, {"role": "user", "content": "How I approached the role that I’m in today is really by demonstrating a desire, a willingness to develop within the organizations that I’ve worked for. So, I’m very much a people-centric leader and I feel like that’s really helped me in my journey, that I have an appreciation and a real respect for the team that does the work every day, and that’s really helped me in my career today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user works hard to ensure that his teams deliver on the targets set by the company every year and are continuously improving. He believes he’s found effectiveness in this role because of his leadership style."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m able to relate to all levels within the organization. I enjoy spending time on the floor, engaging with the team, understanding their challenges and their frustrations, and then being able to provide solutions and input to that to make their job better and more rewarding, and to really foster the team environment. And when I look at the leadership models, the one that really aligns with my beliefs is really a servant-leader approach, and really being able to be there as a servant for those team members and to really help them be the best that they can be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While it sounds like much is going well for user with his teams, he reached out because he’s been struggling with what’s happening with the senior leadership team above him. And so, I started by asking him to elaborate on his situation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Through my working career, one thread that I’ve noticed is that as a senior leader, I become disillusioned with an organization when I see the executive leaders not demonstrating the values of the organization, not living the values, not applying the values. And what that causes is a loss of performance, my performance, and my commitment to the organization in support of the current and the future goals. It impacts my brand because I start to lose the motivation to really commit medium- to long-term to the organization, and it makes me a less effective leader. And what I’m really hoping that we can get out of today’s session is strategies that I can apply when I’m faced in similar situations in the future. They can ensure that I don’t lose that brand awareness or that acknowledgement from executive teams, that I’m someone that’s supported for the future and that my commitment and my drive to do the job to the best of my ability continues."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what I hear you saying is that when you start feeling like the way the senior leadership team is acting is not aligned with the company values that they’re espousing, it causes you to become demotivated. And as a result, it impacts your performance and then potentially as a result of that, the way you’re perceived by that senior team?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. I want to unpack that a little bit, because there’s a lot there. It was like a mouthful for me to say. Right? There’s a lot of different layers. So, help me understand where the… You used a word, getting disillusioned. Help me understand where the disillusionment comes from. What are you disillusioned about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Disillusionment comes about from, I feel like I am supporting, I’m living, I’m modeling the way when it comes to bringing the values to life in the organization. And then when I see the executive team doing the opposite of that, where they don’t demonstrate the commitment to the values and sometimes they do aspects that are contrary to the values, that’s where the disillusionment comes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I feel sometimes that what I tend to do, is I project my standards. So, I have a high bar of expectation within myself and the way that I demonstrate my performance and my behavior in workplace. And at times, I feel like I’m projecting that same standard onto the executive team but I shouldn’t really have to because that executive team is actually more senior than I am. And I feel as though they should be the ones that should be setting the standard or the bar higher."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, where did that expectation come from, that because they’re more senior than you, they should set the bar higher?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think it comes back from the start of my working career, where as a supervisor looking up to a manager or a manager looking up to a general manager, a general manager looking up to a regional manager. So, always looking at the more senior person as being a person that needs to have a higher level of standards and a higher level of behavior that really inspires people, that becomes almost a motivational aspect of what the person can work towards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And so, you have an expectation around that, those who are more senior, who hold the highest leadership positions in the organization behave and act in a particular way. At a standard, as you put it, that’s even higher than the one that you set for yourself. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s your assumption, your belief of what should be happening."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how is that expectation, or holding that assumption and that belief, working out for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, most of the time that doesn’t work out well for me because I see an incongruence there. And that starts me on the cycle of becoming disillusioned with the organization. I would say, however, there have been senior leaders, more executive leaders that I’ve worked with in the past, that really have been inspiring and have set up a high standard that I’ve been able to learn and I’ve been able to develop from. But that type of leader is very few and far between."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, in what you’re sharing, I’m almost feeling like there’s a… “If so, then that,” type of formula. Right? Like if the senior leader is a servant leader or operates at a high standard according to the organizational values, is that model leader that quite frankly we all wish we had, right? Then, you perform at the level that you know can perform at, at the highest level. Second scenario is, if the leader is one that is not the model leader citizen and does not walk the talk when it comes to the corporate values, then you end up becoming disillusioned and unmotivated. Are those the two scenarios?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, okay. And so, what would it look like if you had a senior leader who did not walk the talk, and you still performed at a high level? Is that even a possibility?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is. So, what that would look like would be, maybe becoming a more senior leader in the eyes of others through my demonstration of values, in comparison to theirs. So, maybe that’s the opportunity to raise my standards, but to able to be seen as someone who is performing at a higher level, who has the opportunity to go further within the organization, that is a more senior leader that models the way based on a commitment to the values of the organization."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. And so, let’s speak in a little bit more concrete terms. Give me an example, to the extent that you can, give me an example of a situation where you felt so impacted that it caused you to go down the disillusionment route."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A situation that happened recently with… The business had put pressure on the team to take their funds and use those as a way of being able to provide for their families over a short period of time whilst the business was going through a challenging period. Instead of being able to provide an opportunity for that team to be able to continue their employment for that short period of time, and not have to draw from their retirement fund just to be able to survive on a daily basis. And those conversations that were had really cemented to me that the senior leaders were not living the values of the organization. That they weren’t providing the care and the responsibility for the team, but rather they were just focused on the short term outcomes to be able to deliver the monthly and the quarterly results."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, they were focused on the short-term outcomes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You assessed that that’s not really living up to the values of the organization, they’re not doing the right thing. Right? Quote-unquote."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, as a result of that, how did it impact you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The impact on myself was really a drop in performance, a drop in commitment, a poor attitude towards the organization in its strategic view and its direction. And although I was doing the basics, the fundamentals within my role, I wasn’t, sort of, doing anything over and above that. So, in some ways, I was going through the motions of my role and not actually performing at a standard or an expectation that I would have of myself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did that make you feel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It made me feel a bit disappointed in myself. And I reflected a lot on how I got to that particular point. And in some ways, I would justify it through the actions of the executive team and what they did substantiates my behavior, my lack of performance, my lack of drive and commitment to the organization."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what they did, did this to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where’s your choice in all of this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My choice is that I don’t need to allow those types of events or actions to impact on who I am and the role that I play. And my performance should be to my standards, to my expectations, and not deflect on the actions of other people that results in a loss of performance overall."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I mean, it’s so interesting to me user, because you have eloquently articulated the misalignment that you see between senior leaders in your organization and who they espouse to be, in terms of the values that they have set, or the corporate values, right? So, you see this misalignment happen and as a result, what happens is you misalign. You end up in a place of misalignment between yourself and the leader that you want to be. And so, you’ve created, and I’m going to say created, this causality. Almost this rule of as long as the top leaders are aligned with the corporate values, then I will be aligned, right-"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "… with high performance. But if you see your leaders don’t align with the corporate values, then I’m not going to align with performing. And I mean, that’s one way of doing it. But I think if that way of doing it was satisfactory for you, you wouldn’t be here, right? You wouldn’t experience the disappointment that you’ve had. Okay? So, I think the question that we need to start with is, how do you want to show up as a leader consistently? Regardless of what’s happening?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I want to show up as a leader that lives the values of the organization, that demonstrates the commitment to the people and that brings his best every day into the workplace. That ensures that I meet my expectations, my standards, and my performance isn’t impacted by other people’s decisions or actions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, what would make that possible for you to do that on most days, that’s within your control?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s an interesting question. I think the thing that might help me in achieving that outcome is being clear as to the purpose that I play within organization, the reason my role exists, the values that I bring and I feel to the standards. So, being clear on my standards, and being able to ensure that I’m consistently meeting those standards. And if anything, improving on those standards so that my brand and my reputation is continually improving, it’s not staying the same or it’s not regressing back. So, I think being clear on the standards is certainly an important part."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, I think you just came up with your own framework, right? Which is, “I need to understand and have clarity around why I’m here in leading.” Number one. Number two, “What are the values that I lead by?” And number three, “What are my operating standards?” Okay? The way that I do things? And checking yourself, whether it’s good times or bad times, how aligned are you to those three things? You know, it’s really easy to stay aligned to what’s happening from a corporate perspective when everything’s going well. When everybody’s doing what they’re supposed to be doing and behaving the way they’re supposed to be doing, super easy to do. But then the real question is, what happens when the storm hits? When it starts pouring, when it’s raining and things aren’t as clear or, quote-unquote, nice? What do you hold onto? A hard truth that many of my coaching clients end up having to come to terms with is just how much is out of their control, especially when it comes to their coworkers. That reality becomes even more visible in situations where you need to manage up. Whether that’s a small disagreement or a bigger values issue that arises between you and more senior leaders, the fact remains the same. The only person’s behavior who we can really control is our own, but before we can really change our response, it helps to look at how we’re approaching the issue in the first place. In user’s case, he’s used the word disillusionment several times in our conversation, which intrigued me because in order to become disillusioned, an illusion has to exist, so I was curious what exactly was the illusion user was holding onto?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the illusion that I’ve been carrying is that senior executive leaders are operating at a higher standard, a higher level of value expectations than other leaders in the organization, and that senior and executive leaders should model the way in being able to bring the values to life. But to also be the role models, the mentors, to other managers within the organization as to the standards that we’re working towards, that we’re trying to attain."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And so, maybe we can rename that as being an aspiration, but it’s not reality all the time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s reality sometimes, but it’s not reality all the time. Believe me. If it was reality all the time, I would be out of a job. Right? I would not exist in this profession, okay? So, the illusion is that it’s there all the time. That’s your illusion number one. Should you expect it? Absolutely. It’s an aspiration, but you also want to hold the reality that it doesn’t happen all the time. So, then what? I think the second illusion, if I may offer one, is if you have this unwritten rule of the way the senior leaders behave dictates how user behaves and how user performs. And so, inherent in that illusion is where’s user the leader? Where’s your voice? What do you stand for? And so, I think part of this path is being able to anchor yourself in who you are as a leader and only you can define that. Do you feel like you have a definition of what that is for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I do. I feel like for me, the definition of who I am as a leader is that senior leader that really provides support and motivation and guidance through the teams. That really looks to continuous improvement as a way of being able to improve myself but then to also help improve the teams. And this is where I think… Because continuous improvement is part of my role and it’s certainly part of who I am as a person, wanting to be able to develop and learn how I can become more effective and a more impactful senior leader is really what helps drive me to continue to be better in the job that I do today and into the future. So, I feel like I’ve got a good sense of who I am and what I want to work towards. However, I do need to go back to your points of understanding that why. The values and the operating system to be able to deliver on those outcomes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, I mean, look, I think that, clearly, you’re somebody who’s committed to growth, right? Growth for yourself, growth for your people. And I think that’s probably what causes the rub with the senior people. You’re not seeing them growing in a way that’s more aligned with the aspirational leader. It doesn’t feel like you’re getting continuous improvement from the top. And so, I think the question is, can you still be this continuous improvement leader, the leader who’s committed to growth and development in spite of those senior leaders not demonstrating the same attributes? Do you think it’s possible to be that type of leader within the construct that you’re in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I can be, and I think I need to be. Because the organization that I’m in today might not be too dissimilar to an organization that I’m part of the future. Being able to focus on the factors that are under my control, the way that I show up to work every day, the performance that I deliver and the way that I demonstrate the values and the commitment to the organization is certainly something that I can influence and ensure that I consistently apply that. And I would like to be able to improve the way that I do that tomorrow and next week and next month, and make sure that I am that role model that potentially, I’m looking for those senior leaders to be. So, part of this, maybe what I need to do, is I need to model the way and not be influenced by the senior leaders that are within the organizations that aren’t meeting the expectations that I feel they should be, or the standards that they’re delivering, and actually be that role model that shows that user’s the right person."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. You know, one of my favorite quotes is by Gandhi that said, “Be the…” I think it said, “Be the change that you want to see in the world.” So, for you, you can learn by contrast. And what you’re learning is by contrast. You’re seeing these leaders and you’re like, “Oh, that is not the way that I think leadership should happen.” And then you have a choice. You can follow suit, you can do something different, or you can just do nothing. Just not pay attention to it. And what’s most important for you to not lose yourself, because the disappointment that you’ve experienced is really the disappointment in yourself. I mean, you had disappointment towards them but you’re also disappointed in yourself, that it impacted you. And so, this notion of you really, user, asking yourself, “How can I model the behavior that I think, or the leadership that I think is going to be most effective for my team? How can I do that, even if others are not?” Is what’s critical here. So, what would get in the way of you being able to start doing that, right after this coaching meeting?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think there’s anything that can get in the way. I think I’m responsible for how I show up in the workplace and the way that I communicate and deliver on performance and expectations. So, there are no barriers that prevent me from doing that and part of this is to… Considering how I change my mindset when it comes to these situations. So, that going forward, I don’t become that leader that becomes disillusioned and uncommitted and a poor performer. But rather, I become that person that rises above, demonstrates the values and becomes that role model, that person that people can aspire to become."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So, I’m going to come back to this word that you keep on using, which is disillusionment, right? Because I think that that’s the practice for you. That is part of when this happens for you again. The question that you can ask yourself when you notice it’s happening, because I’m assuming you notice when you start feeling disillusioned, do you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I should check that with you. How do you recognize that you’re in that place?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I feel it. I reflect on it and it feels like, “Here we go again.” This is a feeling I’ve had before. Different organizations, different situations but I recognize it when it happens."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so I love that you said… Well, I’m saying I love that you said, you probably don’t love that it happens but that you’re like, Here we go again. Okay? Whenever you hear here you go again, that is a sign. You are caught up. You are caught up in the cyclone. And so, the question is, do you want to break that pattern that you’ve been in, or do you want to stay in it? There are a couple of things that can break the pattern. The context, right? You can get out of the situation, get out of the cyclones way, and you break the pattern momentarily. You can try to change the others, meaning change the senior leadership team, and that breaks the pattern. But good luck with that in the short term. And the third option to break the pattern, is for you to do something differently. To respond to the situation differently. You already know what happens if you do nothing. You get into this cycle of disillusionment, disappointment, lower performance, impacts your brand. You’ve seen, you’ve shared with me, that movie play over and over and over again. So, now we want a different ending, and so what’s the new ending that you want for this movie?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The new ending would be a continuation of my strong performance and my strong commitments and a focus on controlling the controllables in the role that I play within the organization. And to also be able to differentiate myself, so that if the other senior leaders are not living the values and not performing to the standards that I believe that they should be, that I am, and that separates me in a good way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, that’s your starting point. You have to have a good sense of what you want the outcome to be. Which is why we’ve talked about, well, what’s the type of leader you want to be? In order to then be able to dial it back and say, “Okay, well then how do I even need to see the situation?” And so, whenever you start feeling this disillusionment, I think the place for you to start is, “Well, what’s the illusion that I’m reacting to?” And so, you have to be able to separate what’s the illusion versus what’s the reality of things? And the reality of it at that moment, is these leaders are making decisions that really are not aligned with the corporate values. That’s it. It’s happening whether I like it or not, whether it’s fair or not. So, you see it for what it is, and then you respond. Then you make a decision. How do I want to respond to this situation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that’s a good change of perspective. And I think that that disillusionment piece is critical because it is what I perceive it to be. Be it right or be it wrong. And I need to just understand that it is what it is, that that is the situation. And potentially, the way that I perceive it doesn’t mean it to be correct either. It’s just my lens that I’m looking through but not being able to allow that to impact on me as a senior leader."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, whether it’s right or wrong, I mean, who’s here to say, right? But you can certainly make an assessment around you see what the corporate values are, you see how people are behaving. You can make an assessment as to whether it’s aligned or not. It’s as long as you’re seeing that clearly, rather than staying stuck in the how you think it should be. Because by staying stuck in the how you think it should be, it is paralyzing you from responding to the way that it actually is. That’s the difference. When you stay stuck in, this is how I think it should be, how these leaders should act, we already know how that turns out for you. You get discouraged, it disappoints you because it rubs against the very things that you deem as important. So, if we shift from what we would like it to be to this is what is actually happening, this is how it is now, whether I like it or not, then you can make a better assessment around how do you want to be, going through that? How do you want to lead during that time? So, it’s not really a matter of perception, it’s a matter of shifting from a place of how you would like it to be to a place of this is actually what it is. Let’s pause here because this is a critical juncture for user. His ability to step away from how he thinks upper management should act allows him to see more clearly what is actually happening right now. And this is key because it’s only when we have clarity and acceptance of what is happening in the here and now that we can make the choices of how to respond to the situation in front of us. user is so caught up in how he wants the senior leaders to behave and what they should be doing, that he was missing out on what he could be doing under these circumstances. With this concept in mind, I now wanted to work with user on how he could apply it in real time. Let’s say you run into a situation which happens often. It sounds like it happened to you, where your senior leadership is now mandating something for your team, so you’re now the one who has to go and implement this with your team. And from your standpoint, it’s not aligned with the corporate values. How are you going to deal with it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the way that I will deal with it will be to understand that the direction that’s come from the senior leaders, the decision or the direction that they believe is the right decision for the organization, and that my role within that decision is to be able to support what they’ve determined to be the right course of action. And to not negatively allow that to impact on my behavior and my performance. But rather, to be that senior leader that provides that input, that direction as required and focusing on the things that are under my control. And not allowing for a viewpoint or an illusion that is going to impact on me negatively and limit my performance and my behavior."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, we’ve been very focused on how you model this type of behavior, the leadership behavior that you espouse to your team. I’m sensing there’s a little bit around how you’re perceived by the senior leaders too, when you get into these situations, right? And so, talk to me a little bit about that, because you’ve mentioned being negatively perceived. What’s the negative perception that happens?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The negative perception is when I believe that the senior leaders are not living up to the values of the organization, that I become withdrawn and I just go through the daily motions. I’m not doing anything additional within my role. And that is noticed by senior leaders because it’s almost as though I’ve withdrawn. I’ve tapped out as far as my involvement, my commitment. I’m not speaking up during meetings. And it’s almost this quiet withdrawal that happens, and I’m aware of it and the senior leaders are aware of it. They notice the change that happens in my demeanor and the way that I communicate in the workplace, and that fuels that cycle as well. It can be a very slippery slope, where I become a senior leader that’s committed to delivering the performance goals and objectives to the organization, to being a senior leader that will question into the medium to long term, as to whether I’m the right person for the job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And when you go to that place of questioning whether you’re the right person for the job, where do you land?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I land, in some context, in agreement. Because I question whether I actually want to be a part of the organization going forward, or do I actually want to go and work in another organization where I might find that group of senior leaders that do live the values. But what I’ve seen through my working career is that this has been a cycle. So, I go into an organization and I don’t see the senior leaders demonstrating the values and it just fuels the cycle of going, “Well, I’m disillusioned. I’m going to move on.” I’ll go move on to somewhere else, the first 12 months or two years is very good. A strong performer, potential promotion into more senior roles. But then if the senior leaders aren’t demonstrating those values, then the cycle starts again. Here we go again. That’s that. And it just becomes continuous. And that’s happened in my working career in the last 15 years. And when I reflect back on what’s the last 15 years look like? Well, the last 15 years has been in the senior leadership role. So, I’ve been in the middle management role in that period prior to the 15 years, and my expectation of my manager has been less than the senior leaders. So, I don’t have the same standards of expectations on the middle management level, than I do on the senior leadership level. And I think that’s fair. I think you should operate at a higher level when you’re at a senior level. But that hasn’t served me well. Because it’s impacted on my performance, it’s impacted on my attitude, and the way that I viewed the organization overall, and has resulted in me leaving the organization and working somewhere else. Which has good aspects, as well. Because it makes me a more diverse leader within the business. However, it’s almost though I’m searching. I’m searching for that senior leadership group that’s demonstrating the values on a consistent basis that fuels my commitment and my performance ongoing, which I don’t know if it actually exists."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don’t know either."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right? I don’t know either because what you’re talking about is finding an environment and a leadership culture that you can work in, where there’s a strong enough intersection between what you value and what the leadership of the organization values. And I say an intersection, not an overlap. It doesn’t have to be completely overlapped. There has to be some intersection but it doesn’t have to be a hundred percent. And I think the tension you’ve been feeling is when there’s dissonance."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s no intersection at that point in time, between what you value as a leader and what it seems the organization’s leaders value, by the way that they’re behaving or acting. Okay? And in those moments of dissonance, which are going to happen, those are inevitable. It is inevitable that there’s going to be those moments of dissonance on a team, in an organization, in a relationship, in a friendship, you name it. The question is how far is the gap between your values and that of the organization? And how long does that gap and that dissonance last? And can you withstand being in that gap for that long amount of time? So, there’s a tolerance that only you can answer. Is it worth it to you? So, that’s why I say I don’t know, because I don’t know what that intersection looks like for you. But I think this question that’s coming up for you, this other question which is, “Is this the right place for me?” It could be, it could not be. Who knows? But the first place to start, I think, in breaking this cycle is first look at yourself, right? What have you contributed to this dynamic, to this pattern that you’ve seen for the past 15 years? Is there a different way of responding? And then test it out. Try it out. Because there’s growth there. If your response stays the same, what you think’s going to happen when you go to the next place?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s the same outcome."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The moment there’s going to be this inevitable dissonance, which there will be, it’s going to be the same outcome. So, this is not to… And I hope you’re not hearing it this way, I’m not absolving the senior leadership of your organization from… I wish they were in the room with us, right? So, I could be like, “What the heck’s going on?” Right? But they’re not here for the coaching, so I have to assume that things are just going to stay the same there. Maybe. Or it might be a season. But this is not to absolve them from what they need to do, clearly. Right? Yes, they ought to be acting in a more responsible way from a leadership standpoint. But in spite of that, there’s always this decision point that you have to come to. And so, while you’re there, what can you do until you decide, if you decide, that you don’t want to be there anymore?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I think some of the things that I can do as a strategy going forward, is to be clear as to what role I play. The why of my position within the organization. And to ensure that from a values point of view, that I’m not going to compromise on my values but rather focus on those aspects that are under my control. Which is the way that I turn up day and the way that I perform. And really ensure that that operating model that I operate from, is one that does have integrity behind it in the fact that I’m actually putting into practice the things that I say are important. And if that means that I model the way, then that can be a positive thing. Because people will notice that and they will be able to recognize the fact that user’s raised above… Maybe the lesser behavior within the senior leaders, and is certainly that person that brings the values to life within the organization, regardless of what’s actually occurring."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And not allowing for that to impact on who I am ultimately, and my personal and also my professional brand."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, who you are is who you are. Right? And every day we have a choice to be anchored in what we stand for and what we believe to be true, or allow others or circumstances to dictate what that is. There’s a question for me, because again, you focused on how do you model the behavior? And you mentioned, even, sitting in these senior meetings and feeling yourself withdraw. Withdrawal is one response. I just want you to see what choices you have in front of you. What other choices do you have in how you could respond to the senior leaders when you see them not walking the talk? Besides withdrawal?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, the opposite is to speak up and to make my observations, my feelings, my thoughts known within that group. And to offer solutions, as well. To maybe offer a different point of view, a different lens that might help the organization to actually live the values, to demonstrate the values that might help, as well, the senior leaders to be able to ensure that there is congruence in what the organization espouses and what the senior leaders actually do. And that finding my voice has been a key point that has been raised in performance reviews and even on self-reflection, that I need to speak up more and not withdraw in, as opposed to what I’ve done in the past. And sometimes, I feel as though the reasons why I withdraw in is because I think, “What’s the point?” I don’t feel like I’m going to be able to influence or change this group of senior leaders. But that, once again, is potentially an illusion. That my mindset is that I won’t be able to do it, but I’ve never actually put it into practice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, maybe we can test it out. Because again, I don’t know. Maybe they won’t listen to you, but maybe they will. But I’m going to tell you with certainty what will happen if you speak up, or if you test this out. It will be one situation where your actions have been aligned with what you think is important. Regardless of what the outcome is. So, I think this notion of speaking up… I didn’t even know this is where we were going to get to but the fact that you said it, right, is key. Because what you’re looking for is… user, you’re looking for congruency all around, right? You want to be congruent with your values and how you deal with your team, but you also want to be congruent with your values and how you deal with yourself and how you deal with upper management. It’s not enough to say, “Oh, I’m just going to be consistent with my values in one area of my workplace, but the other area, I’ll fake it till I make it. I’ll just withdraw out of self-preservation.” And so, if, for you, the response to date has been withdraw because, “Why should I say something? Because what… I mean, are they even going to listen? Let me not even bother.” Right? Which really underlies that, is a fear of what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe there’s a fear that my view, my value, is not recognized within the senior leadership group. That my opinions don’t really matter and that the broader collective is more important, as opposed to an alternative view."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think you got to the core of it. We started this conversation with you saying how people-centric you are, right? And people who are people-centric, what do they believe matters? People."}, {"role": "user", "content": "People. It’s all about people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And so, here you are in a position where you’re like, “What if we roll this whole thing out and at the end of the day, what I have to say doesn’t really matter? Because they don’t do it, they don’t act on it. And what does that say about me?” user, it says nothing about you. What it says is that what you had to say, they didn’t agree with. But it has nothing to say about you as the person that you are and the values that you stand by. So, I think a key piece for you is in what way do you act? What’s your responsibility to act according to your values? And is this response of withdrawing when you see something not being done that is quote-unquote right, how does that uphold your values by withdrawing in those situations? For me, it doesn’t matter. You can withdraw, you can speak up, you can do everything in between. The only thing I will ever ask you is, does that align with what you think is important for you and the outcome that you’re looking to drive to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it doesn’t align with the values and the outcomes that I’m trying to align for. So, I think one of the key takeaways for me in this session is really about making sure that I’m clear on my values and the importance of speaking up, of having a voice on the issues, the alternatives that I see, and that I’m actually putting into practice what I believe are important aspects of being congruent in the workplace, when it comes to living the values."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And if that helps me become a more effective leader and someone that actually has a voice of value that can support the organization, then that’s always going to support me in whatever my future goals and ambitions are within the workplace. And it doesn’t matter what workplace that is. I think it’s a universal trait that I can apply that’s really going to help me in my future. So, thank you, Muriel."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re welcome. One of the things that always keeps me on my toes as a coach is how often the issue that we start with brings us to so many, and sometimes different and unexpected places, by the end of the discussion. user came to our coaching meeting feeling once again frustrated by his senior leadership team, and not knowing what to do about it. But by walking through his expectations and coming to terms with what he could and couldn’t control, and by thinking of other ways he could approach certain situations, user came out on the other side of the conversation with ways he could take action in a situation where he had, up until now, felt pretty hopeless. And as far as what’s to come for user? My sense is that as long as his actions stay aligned with his values, he won’t feel as disconnected as he has, and he’ll be able to really figure out whether his current, or any other future organization, is the right place for him. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Want more of Coaching Real Leaders? Join our community where I host live discussions to unpack the coaching sessions. Become a member at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find me and my newsletter on LinkedIn at coach AI. Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe, sound editor Nick Crnko, music composer Brian Campbell, my assistant Emily Sofa, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. If you are dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show next season. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward. Share it with your friends, subscribe, and leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. From HBR presents, I’m coach AI. Until next time, be well."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "She’s carved out a unique role for herself, which she loves, but worries that the pace of work is unsustainable. As she thinks about the next step in her career, she realizes that it will require her to lean on the help of others — something she’s not used to doing. Host Muriel Wilkins coaches her through how to get the support she needs to move forward in her career."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call user to protect her confidentiality. She has, in her words, reached a high level in her career doing something she loves – through a combination of determination and a bit of luck."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I always wanted to be creative, but I was never encouraged by my family. I was told I’d be a poor hippie. I didn’t have great educational experiences when I was younger. Basically, I was told if I wanted to go to school, I had to pay my way and the easiest way for me to do that was through sports. So, I basically got on an athletic scholarship. When I started teaching, I realized finally how I learned. I became addicted to curiosity. And once I had this feeling, I felt like I had the best gift in the world. No matter where I’m at in life, this will always help me break through to whatever’s next. And I think it’s the best gift you can give somebody is to help them find their voice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user has parlayed her work ethic and love of teaching into her current role."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say the passion for me is that it’s really about creating things from scratch and helping other people learn how to learn and accelerate their learning. I have to be both externally and internally efficient and effective. Internally, the people that I serve are essentially the partners, and my job is to distill their thoughts that are sometimes never been actually externalized, sometimes it’s just tips and tricks they’ve gained along the way, and extracting their top 1% of knowledge and making it compelling and engaging. And then the other audience that I serve are our clients who tend to be extremely high performing people that have gotten to where they are because they’re smart. And my job is to almost help them be smarter."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She’s been powering through her career and really figured out something she loves, but she’s now facing some life circumstances that make her feel like she should start working smarter but not harder. Let’s start the conversation as I ask user about what she’s looking to get out of our coaching conversation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For one, I think there needs to be a word for when you are really great at giving advice to other people, but not yourself. And I just haven’t heard that word yet, but that’s why I’m here. Essentially, I’m trying to get ahead of a problem. I’m trying to look into the future and get a long view. And the problem statement that I’m coming in with today is, how do I approach my future career without having to do it all on my own? There’s been two key things that have catalyzed this problem for me. So, I had a pretty life-changing surgery, and so I’m on medical leave, and that puts you in a space where you’re in deep reflection. And physically, I cannot do what I’ve done before. So, the old approach to how I sought work and did my work, I don’t think will work anymore moving forward. And the second assumption that I have baked in was a seed that I planted in my head maybe a year ago and I’ve just ignored, but it’s really coming to fruition in this reflection. And it’s during the pandemic when there was these mass migrations of talent, I was starting to see, and I wasn’t looking, but I was just seeing my peers basically go in swaths to other companies. Six people would go to company A, 10 people would go to company B."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, why is this relevant now? Why is this question important to you right now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My health has certainly given me that shock to the system where I’m not willing, nor am I able to keep the pace that I was able to do before. And I’m worried that if I don’t have a long-term strategy for finding that next job or figuring out how to approach the rest of my career, I’m going to be stuck in an environment that might not be sustainable for me just in terms of what it’s asking of me physically. And I don’t think the old way of just seeing if a job pops up is going to work because the landscape that I’m in is not really defined for my role, and I can’t really go on LinkedIn and just search for this role."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it sounds like a big change for you has been around your desired and potentially required pace."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right, just so I understand. So thinking about a future career, not quite sure what that career looks like, presumably, or at least we’ll talk a little bit about that. And then how do you approach it? Because it’s not one of those things that just pops up in your email. You’re perceiving it as something where you might have to take a different approach to finding your next role, and that’s not something that you’ve had to do in the past."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct, yeah. I don’t know how to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, you don’t know how to. And what is it that you don’t know how to do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know how to help myself in my career. I just put my head down and work hard and care about what I care about deeply. But in terms of leveraging my past success and having that work for me, I don’t know how to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. All right. So, where you do know how to help yourself is by doing the work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it’s the only way I know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s the only way, but it’s worked. It has been a way."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s very tiring. It has worked, but I think it’s also unsustainable past a certain point. There’s a high burnout rate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Gotcha. At what point is that burnout rate for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was there six months ago, but now I’m forced to stop, so I’m past that point now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I think part of what we might want to start with is painting the picture of where it is that you’re going to, even though we don’t yet know whether it exists in reality. It sounds like you have a working definition of what’s not working for you. I’d love for you to explore what your operating, working definition is going to be about what you think will work for you. And so when I say that, what does the future career look like for you? What does the next role look like for you? What comes up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say it’s about 30% of what I currently have and 60% of what I don’t yet have. The thing I mentioned earlier is that the pace for me is not sustainable. There’s a relentlessness to it that I don’t want to keep up with. The things that I currently have that I’d like to continue in my future role is I’d like to work on products that are really considered leading industry products. I’d like to be in a global org, not necessarily narrowed in on one geo. The things that I don’t have that I would like, one is right now I’m basically like a lone operator, and I’d like to be in a team of other peers so that I’m not in a thought vacuum. I want to continue being a really senior IC, so leading within a team, not leading a team. I guess the main change that I’m really looking for is I want to go a little bit less from being that athlete at work to being more the expert at work. So, a little less doing, a little bit more guiding just to put some breaks on the work I’ve been taking on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Got it. And so the athlete to expert is for the purpose of being able to slow down some?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so. And it’s also just I’ve maximized those skills. I don’t want to keep doing the same thing over and over and again. For my own personal growth, I see that as a learning opportunity. And I think sometimes people can be better as coaches than athletes. In my sports career, I always felt that was the case with me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, moving from more of an athlete player to a coach?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Got it. What I’m not hearing you say directly, even though it came up in terms of what was important to you and what is a catalyst for this change is, I’m curious, what is the pace that you’re looking for in the future?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think waves of projects with thoughts in between rather than never-ending sprints, and not even sprints, never ending marathons. I think part of this comes from my background. One of the ways that designers really excel is when there’s a little bit of distance, so there’s a little bit of room to observe, or there’s a little bit of an angle for breathing space. And when I don’t have that, it’s easy to succumb to just the work and not be as creative as I want to in my thought process, and that’s part of what’s driving this need for just breaks and cycles."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, in your experience, the way that you had, and I’m sure there’s other components to what your dream role would be next, but have you seen that dream role or that future role in existence in some form or fashion anywhere?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I haven’t."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You haven’t?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s another challenge that I haven’t explicitly said, but you might get … I don’t know. It’s kind of if you see a person, maybe you’re like, “They look like what I’m interested in, but they don’t really have all the qualifications.” So no, I haven’t seen anything like exactly. Not that I’m looking for exactly what I want, but the core of what I’m looking for I have not seen existing in the world."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And let’s say tomorrow, this role, as you described, did come up, was offered to you, what trade-offs would you be willing to make to acquire that role? Meaning, is there anything that you’d be willing to give up or to make less important for you in order to have a role where you now are on a team of peers, you’re more of a coach rather than the athlete, there’s spaciousness between projects?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the thing I’d be willing to give up is my desire to be an IC versus leading other people. I’ve led other people in the past, but I’ve found that I’m an empath and I often take on their emotions. And rather than being that direct line of responsibility, I like being a coach where it’s almost like an aunt or an uncle rather than a parent. I find that a little liberating and creative."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So, I’m asking the question because I think, sometimes, we say, oh, this is what we want, and we don’t recognize that we might have to let go of something in order to pick up something else. Instead, we’re like, “Oh, no, I’m just adding to the bag.” Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it’s like buying a house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Exactly. And then it’s like, “Ooh, I can’t find a house that size, or I can’t afford a house that size.” So, not to say you can’t have it, it’s just being ready for there may be potential trade-offs that you have to make when the time comes. How about as tactical things as willingness to move, compensation? Are there trade-offs you’d be willing to make around those very lower level decisions, but yet very important decisions we have to make about our career?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’d be willing to move. Compensation is something I’ve worked hard for and I would like to keep it where it’s at or improve."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, great. Just for you to know as you start thinking about what are all the different parameters, because those, as much as I said, oh, describe what the current role looks like, I also think you need to … It’s kind of like you describe the house, and then what does the fence look like? What are the boundaries that you want to put around it? What are the parameters so that when you see it, you know that’s what you want. And more importantly in your case, you can start working towards what it is that you want. What’s your approach from getting closer to that role? I want to come back to part of the catalyst here, which is around a requirement of change of pace for you. Clearly we’re talking about your career as it relates to your feeling of burnout in terms of how you described it and it being unsustainable. To what extent is your career what you feel led to your physical burnout or your overall sense of burnout, and is it the sole factor that led to that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say I’ve prioritized my career willingly over the past 10 or 15 years because frankly it brings me joy. It’s not a career for me. What I’ve done or liked as a person has always naturally I’ve been able to do as a job. In terms of the burnout that I’ve experienced recently, there was a few things. I didn’t take a break, total newbie, move between the two jobs. I transferred into an industry that was completely different. I transferred into a subject matter area that I was not as familiar with. So, the learning curve was just extremely steep. And in hindsight, I think I put myself in an environment that wasn’t sustainable, even though I was highly able and capable to fulfill the role. And so I actually think it’s the environment that I am finding unsustainable."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And at what point did you get the sense that this environment might not be the one that is most sustainable for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say about a month into the job. But my fiber or my fabric or DNA of who I am, always I pursue and there’s a determination to me. And it’s not to prove anybody wrong, but it’s just a stamina that I have and I will complete a job until it’s done. But I think I would’ve continued or can continue at this job had it not been for this just weird change of events with my health. That’s a little scary."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, what I want to be mindful of is we can course correct for the environment. You can find another environment. That doesn’t guarantee that the thing that drove your pace, that eventually led to staying in the environment that you’ve been in, and then eventually led to the burnout that you’ve experienced, that doesn’t guarantee that that goes away."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My habit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The habit, exactly. So, what we want to try not to do is put a bandaid on the real source of the issue, which is what your approach has been. And your approach is grounded in your superpower. You were like this relentless pursuit of what you need to make it. I mean, you even said you were told if you’re going to go to college, you’re going to have to do X. You’re going to have to get your way through it. And so, that’s what you did. You were a student athlete, which is really hard to do, and you worked through it. And now here again, you work through your career until you couldn’t anymore."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I feel like I’m retiring from a professional career and I’m going to transition into a new one or something, even though-"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. In the words of somebody who I hugely admire, Serena Williams, you’re evolving."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right, that’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’re not retiring, we’re evolving. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. There you go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s pause here. user’s situation is particular in that she’s been facing a health crisis, but it’s also pretty universal in that many people, high achievers, workaholics, whatever you want to call them, power through to reach success in their careers. But many of those people also reach their breaking point where they don’t know how they can continue working at that pace and they want a change. While it’s easy to think that all you need is a change of environment or job to slow down, it’s also important to look at your own self to see what changes you need to make so that you don’t end up in the same burnout situation again. As much as user was ready to explore how others could help her make a career shift, it was important that she start with herself and what she’d need to do to work at a more sustainable pace, no matter where she lands. Let’s pick the conversation back up as she begins to unpack what assumptions about work she holds and how she might need to change them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My old way of working, which was just find one job, stay in it until I can’t do it anymore, go into the next job and just hop from lily pad to lily pad without foresight, that approach is not going to work. It’s short sighted And it’s creating burnout. So, my assumption as well is that this new approach is going to require more than just me, I guess, maybe a network or community of people to help me get to where I want to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And may I suggest that you don’t give up one approach or the other and more approach it from a place of I’m expanding my approaches. So-"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, not retiring, evolving. And I’m not exploding, I’m expanding my possibility."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re expanding. Exactly, exactly. And what you’re expanding from is, okay, yes, you had one approach and guess what? It did lead to some successes. I mean, you have carved out a pretty amazing career for yourself. And we’ll call that, as you put it, the jumping from lily pad to lily pad and reacting to what’s ahead of you. That can work, and what that would mean is if today some opportunity popped up, I don’t want you to be like, “No, no, no, no, no, that that’s my old approach. I’m not looking at it.” No, still be opportunistic and take a look, and let’s figure out if there are other approaches that expands the potential for opportunities and expands the way that you approach career-seeking and career-planning that then provides you with more range in what the possibilities are for you. There’s a bit of, I understand and want to acknowledge the space that you’re in today, which is your health has been impacted in a way that’s significant and material for you. And it’s very easy when we get to those places to then look at everything that’s led up to that as quote-unquote, “bad” and how could I have, and I took the wrong path. And what I want to offer you or suggest is that you give yourself some grace and some credit that what got you here, yes, may have resulted in your health pattern, but did not necessarily … isn’t the full story. Where you are here from a health standpoint is not your complete story. You also have this very amazing, other parts of your life. So, for lack of a better sophisticated word, let’s not poo-poo all over it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, we’re going to hold that and then we’re going to move on to the rest. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have a question for you on that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As you’re saying this, I’m feeling almost like a little bit of guilt that I let myself get to this state, that I was so burnt out that I had this extreme situation. And I’m not saying that it was necessarily the causation of it, but there are parts of me that thinks it was correlatory. If I had been more in tune with my needs, maybe I would’ve caught things earlier. And I’m glad you said to give myself some space because I didn’t realize it until you had said that, but I think I’m being a little hard on myself where I’m not maybe forgiving myself for letting myself get to that point. And so, I think I need to just maybe, as you said, give a little bit of pause and just give that space so that when I do move forward and I am kind of looking at this evolutionary approach with more possibilities, that’s not even a focus in the back of my head. It’s like, I’m good, I’ve put that to bed, let’s move forward."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I mean, what would that look like for you to even give yourself that space?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Honestly, just talking about it with you now and just acknowledging it feels pretty good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, Brené Brown, who I bow down to, talks about guilt and what the root of guilt is, which is shame. And so, if we just take that framework, what’s the shame in you having gotten to this point in your health?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m relatively young and it was a shock. It felt a little bit self-inflicted."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I think there are a lot of assumptions there. And I’m taking a pause because I’m thinking about when I asked you to describe what has propelled you in your career. You named three things, determination, fortitude, and luck. And when I hear you talk about where you are right now, it seems like you are relying on the determination and fortitude and almost saying, man, if I had more … Somehow determination and fortitude would’ve stopped this from happening and you’re leaving the luck part completely out of the picture. And luck works both ways, right? Luck is when we say, oh, that’s not in my control. And there is a lot that’s not in our control, but luck can work in our favor and against our … Or it’s not even favor, it’s against what we would hope happened. And in this case, the part that’s not in our control fully, as you said, it’s part of the equation, but the part that’s not in our control is what happened. And that’s the space to realize you could do all the quote-unquote, “right things” and still be where you are."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I mean, admittedly, I’ve done a lot of wrong things too, but that’s the way that I learn, which is actually the best way to learn. I think in a way almost if I had … This comes back to the point where I’m better at helping other people better than myself. I understand that cerebrally, I understand that unfortunately life is probably 50% pain and it’s probably 50% joy. It felt different to me this time because it happened to me versus when I’ve seen it happen to loved ones or something. And I think the support I provide them is probably different than the support I would provide myself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What’s the support that you provide them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I can observe their needs and I can look at them and fill in the gaps and I could just meet them where they’re at. With myself, unless it’s right in front of my eyes, like dead smack staring at me, I don’t realize it. I’m just like, “Oh, I need something. Okay, I’ll deal with it now.” It’s delayed and it’s a lot more blunt."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is what we call … I mean, what you’re describing, even from a leadership standpoint, we’ve talked so much about having the leader who is compassionate. So, compassion means being able to sit with another’s suffering with an open heart. And in order to build capacity for compassion for others, you really need to be able to build capacity for self-compassion. And what I’m hearing you say is I’m able to sit with somebody else’s needs. I’m able to do that with my people at work. I’m able to do that with loved ones. And yet, I haven’t quite built the capacity yet to sit with my own needs and sit with my own discomfort, not to sound dramatic, but in this case it is literal, my own suffering."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Cuts deep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s deep?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As they say, that cuts deep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That cuts deep, that cuts deep. Yes. In what way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s not unusual for I think people to put their energy into places where they want to give back. And I would say that’s part of my career, I’m trying to give people maybe what I didn’t have. And so I think it’s, even if I haven’t developed that capacity yet, or maybe I haven’t strengthened that capacity yet, I think it’s there. I think part of the way that I try to do that is one, give to others, but also just let that experience of giving to others, through osmosis, develop my own capacity better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, that’s a really interesting approach, user. And a lot of people approach it that way, if I give to others, then I am giving to myself. Or if I help others be joyful, then it will bring me joy, and it actually doesn’t work that way."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Many people are irresponsible about it too I will add."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. The way it works is … It’s so funny where I get sometimes my learning moments for myself, but I will quote some other people here. I can’t remember which one, but one of my favorite Peloton instructors says something like, “You’ve got to be able to pour into the other’s cup while you pour into your own at the same time.” It’s not, I’m going to pour into the other person’s cup and therefore my cup will be full. No, you pour into both. So, I think part of this for you is understanding that what you’re giving out, you also need to be using the boomerang effect and giving to yourself as well. Now the good news is clearly you have the ability to be helpful because you said, I don’t know how to help myself, but you have the ability to help because you’re doing it for everybody else. And now it’s like, how do you then help yourself in the same way that you help others, which is understanding their needs, filtering down and synthesizing what those needs actually mean and then putting them into practice and executing on them. And so, part of that is starting with what you’ve defined. If we bring it back to the job search, well, then what kind of job do I actually need that will help me? What does it mean to be sustainable for me? What does that look like for me? Always bringing it back to yourself. And when I say that, bringing it back to yourself, how comfortable are you with that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it’s doable. I think out of the things that you asked me for, the strongest indicator of what I need right now is just a team of peers. I’ve been in a vacuum and I need other people to learn from in what I specifically do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. You need other people to learn from in what you specifically do. All right. And it sounds also like what you need is other people to just help you do the work."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I know I need to scale myself and it’s been on the roadmap for a long time and it’s inevitable. I could use some help as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. What have you done to move towards more of a sustainable situation within your current role?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Does taking medical leave count? [inaudible 00:29:44] I bought time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You know what? I’m going to give you a check plus on that one."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you. Thank you. Apparently you need medical write-off for that, it’s not self-nominated. Other than that, nothing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who else knows that you are feeling the way you do in terms of feeling like it’s unsustainable and you’re in the burnout phase?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I haven’t told anyone, put it that way. The very perceptive people can tell, but I haven’t admitted it either."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You haven’t admitted it. And what got in the way of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it can put you in a position of risk if the environment isn’t accommodating to it. And I was still in observation mode and I didn’t intuitively feel like I was in that space where I could without jeopardizing my options. I didn’t want to put that card down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that’s very real. So, assessing the risks, not feeling fully safe to be able to do that. What would you need to feel, quote-unquote, “safe enough” to share where you are?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I find, with these hard conversations, it often helps to fly to a 20,000 foot elevation. So, maybe you’re feeling very intense about something because it’s quite present and it’s visceral for me. So, I think what I need is to have a conversation about, look, this is what I’m heading for in my long-term future, or this is how it might include you. Given that, here’s what I need on a day-to-day, kind of like a 5K foot view. And I think I haven’t been able to have those long-term career conversations because like I said, I’ve just been nose to the grindstone and there hasn’t been time work-wise, nor have I made time for myself for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, what would make you be able to have those conversations in the future?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "One of the great things about this break is that I’ve had a ton of time to reflect in my few short weeks because you’re lying in a bed and so, your brain just goes in overdrive. First, I think I needed clarity on what that future is. And then after that I think it’s just reaching out to some select people and just asking for their trust."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how realistic do you think that is for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Before I went on break, I would say it was probably about a 50-50% risk. When I go back, I’d like to reassess the situation. A lot of things could have changed that I’m not aware of. I could have that conversation with people outside of my current environment. I have great relationships with tons of my old peers and colleagues, but I never considered any of them like a mentor or a sponsor, they’re just friends."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But what would you be looking for in having those conversations? What’s the desired outcome?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A sounding board, much like we’re doing now, someone to just objectively say, I’m hearing you say this, is this what you’re looking for? And I think out of those conversations, what I’d be looking to have is almost from a friend more than a colleague point of view is what … The question would be like, is what I want to achieve, do you think doable in this environment realistically?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, that I think is the question that you need to be direct with and ask whether it’s internally in your organization or externally elsewhere, as you start looking for that role. The difference between being reactive, that has been your approach up till now, the lily pad jumping, right? You’ve been reactive. The opportunity has come up, and the opportunity has basically said, hey, does this look good to you? And you’ve answered yes or no. The different approach now that we’re moving to, which is more proactive is you’re saying, hey, here’s what I want, does it look good to you? And they can say yes or no."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It feels a lot more empowering than what I’ve been doing before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. With that comes some risks. The risk is that they say no, but guess what? You already identified what the risks were in your other approach. So there’s risks either way. So what I’m sensing in our conversation is a hesitation to fully put out there what it is that you want and need out of concern of how it might be responded to."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Partially. I don’t think I was clear on what I wanted or I needed until this break."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user came to the conversation looking for better guidance on how to plan out her career. But what she’s finding is getting in her way is her reluctance to state what she wants and needs out of her professional role. And she’s so used to doing things on her own, she also hasn’t always asked for help in managing her career. But this forced break from work has really given her an opportunity to sort through her priorities. So, now we can go ahead and start looking at ways she can have conversations both internally and externally about what it is she wants. There’s three ways this can go. You can either wait and hope that somebody one day just miraculously pops up and says, hey, remember that role that you said you wanted when you were laying in bed and you conjured it up and you’re like, here it is? So, that would be your old way. Option number two is you go have one of these more sound-boarding conversation, mentoring conversations or even more mentoring where it’s like, hey, this is how I’m feeling, it hasn’t been sustainable for me, it’s been really hard. And then you cross your fingers and hope that the person on the other side will say, wow, well, you know then? What if the role was like this? And then you react to it and say, oh my gosh, yes. How did you know? That’s exactly what I want. So, you can go to option three, which is, I’ve thought about it, I know what the pros and cons are. I’m now crafting, designing, creating, which by the way, you’re really good at, what I want that next role to be. Let me go and talk to select people about it and test whether it’s even possible. And if it’s not possible here, then I have a choice to make. And so, I laid out some options. How do they sound to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The first two, I would say sound status quo in terms of possible, I’ve done that already, maybe not the second one as much as the first one. The whole proactive versus reactive mindset’s really resonating me, and so I’m compelled to think that really what I want is that third approach, which is me stating what I want and putting out there and seeing how people react rather than me accommodating to other people’s needs as much. I think it’s the only way I’ll feel like there’s more balance, the kind of balance that I need."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, what do you feel you need to be able to do that, to chase option number three, if that’s what you’re choosing right now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I can craft my needs in a pretty simple and hopefully intelligent way. I struggle with knowing, I guess who to speak to or how to approach them. Like I said, I’ve never had formal mentors or sponsors, but I leave every job usually, and this is not to toot my own horn, but I leave jobs with great reputation, so it’s not like I’m burning bridges. I guess I don’t know how to leverage a community or a network."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What does that even mean, leverage a community and a network?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know, I don’t know. Network’s a weird word and so is community, but this is the part where it’s like, I just don’t want to do it on my own. I’d like to have some help from others."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. That’s what I wanted. I wanted to fully understand what does that even mean? You don’t want to do it by yourself."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’d like to learn from other people that are a few steps ahead of me, even if it’s somewhat adjacent or tangential to what I’m doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so you want to learn from them. What else do you want from them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Advice in terms of is what I’m laying out tenable? Are there potentially industries that I’m not considering? Are there potentially people I should speak to? I mean, the cherry on top would be like, hey, I have a job for you that meets exactly what you’re looking for."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, wouldn’t it be great if you’re talking to people who also potentially have line of sight into opportunities?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would love that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, user, don’t bury the lead here, you want a job."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I want a great job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You want a great job. So, there’s your criteria. Look at your list of people, who has something to offer in terms of advice? Who has something to offer in terms of experience? Who has something to offer in terms of line of sight into opportunities and potentially influence and decision-making position towards those opportunities? Who has the intersection of all three? Because they’re the holy grail. What you have at the very least is a network, a community, as you’ve said. You have people, you’re just not leveraging them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "“I know,” she says sheepishly. So, it’s how do you leverage them? I think the first place is you drill it down, you focus. You don’t just spread yourself thin. You say, okay, just the same way we articulated for you, what’s the career you’re looking for, where is it that you need help? Who do you need help from? So, you need help in terms of advice, support, opportunities. But let’s even start with the first is, who’s your board of advisors? Who are your people that can be helpful to you? So, right now you’ve articulated what you need. All right, who falls in that sweet spot? That’s who your outreach list is."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s interesting because I think one of the things that was holding me back is that I didn’t feel like I had a clear ask and I didn’t want to come to people without a clear ask. And that’s because I’ve been on the other side of the equation quite often, I mean almost always actually, where people are asking me for help or mentorship, and I don’t think all requests for help are created equal. And I wanted to be, I guess strategic and smart about how I wanted to ask for help. And now that I’ve clarified those, or that you’ve clarified those three things for me, that gives me a much more solid foundation where I think I feel a lot more comfortable doing that. It was a barrier before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, you now have your clarity of ask. You now have, we’ll hypothetically say, you have your list of people or you will in the next few weeks. What happens after that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it’s kind of putting pen to paper, just making a very simple brief, two paragraphs at most, maybe a few bullets identifying this is what I want, these are the pillars of what I’m looking for, and then making a short list of people. And then I think just putting myself out there and seeing where it goes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think what you need to be careful of is potentially missing out on the opportunity to make your specific ask out of concern for how it’s going to be handled. So, what does that mean to you when I say that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good catch, but I don’t know how to do that either."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, how you do that is, yes, you might come in with framing it a little bit higher level in terms of framing it as seeking advice, but have your ask in your back pocket because if you see an opportunity to present it, then you present it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What would that sound like? Or how would you phrase that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think it depends on how the person responds. In an ideal way, they will say, well, so what is it that you want? And then they’ve asked you. If you’re halfway there and you’re not sure, you can maybe say, I’m thinking about potentially different options. I’m not dead set on this, but here’s something I’ve been thinking about. So, you caveat it a little bit. But what I don’t want you to do is go to, I’m not sharing at all, and go in with that attitude and then not even notice when there is an actual opening for you to share."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It almost makes me think that I just need to scenario plan a little bit. And as you mentioned, there’s these three things that I’m looking for. And then maybe there’s different levels of, let’s just say viscosity in terms of how much I can share with this person. And then almost make a little bit of a map, like here’s a two liner that I could share with that person just so I have a little bit of a roadmap of how I’d like the conversation to go, of course adapting to how I view it going."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that’s a great idea. And if you have some people that you do trust, like a friend, a colleague that’s a trusted friend, you might want to role-play it out with them before you actually go out in the real streets and do this and have these meetings. Have them play the trusted advisor, mentor, sponsor where you can come in and be very direct with what it is that you want. Have them play the in between person and then have them play the person that’s like, let me keep this high level. And practice it out loud."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s a great idea."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Let me just play this out with you since we were talking about scenario planning. What’s the worst that could happen when you have these conversations?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The worst-case situation would be that I don’t get any helpful information, which is not that bad, it’s just a waste of time. Not really. But the worst case situation is that the conversation goes nowhere, and I don’t think anybody would think any less of me in reality."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Noted, it’s not that bad."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I mean, it lands you back to where you already are."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, worst case is the status quo."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I think as you do your outreach, as you go into these conversations, it’s also thinking about what do you have to gain from having this conversation and what do you have to lose? And then making a choice. So, how has it worked for you in the past when people have come to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I usually think of it in terms of a three-point diagram. One is, can I actually help them with their ask? Do I have the skills where I actually feel like I could provide value? And then I think the second one is, do they have a clear sense of their ask? And do they actually have a need that I feel is a real need, or is it just a, I want a favor, dialing in a favor and I might not need it that much. Need actually matters to me a lot. And then the third one is like, do I want to help them? Do I like them? So, I think about those three things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, if you were to take those three things, how would you frame your outreach to others to make sure that those three variables are at least being considered?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Have a clear understanding of their skill or expertise or opportunity or whatever it is that they excel at. Be very clear and explicit about that upfront that this is what I’m trying to tap into, establish some rapport. And then the third one is just be very, very clear and simple about what it is I’m asking them for and why I think they can help me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I would encourage you to be as transparent as you want them to be with you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What we’re talking about is an approach essentially for, let’s say, some near term action that I’d like to take to explore future possibilities and roles. And this is, I mean, we’re really kind of talking about different approaches to communication and a plan for it, but is this a ongoing practice that most people have? Are most people continually doing outreach searching for what’s next?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I’m going to turn the question back on you. Is this a practice that you continuously want to have?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ve never done it before, so I don’t know. It seems a little exhausting to do this all the time. I mean, there’s joy and feeling comfortable and rooted in a place. So no, I don’t think I want it all the time, but I imagine that it’s somewhat cyclical and it’s like a muscle you have to engage every few years or quarters, depending on how you’re doing it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I think the operating statement that you made at the end there was depending on what you’re doing. So, I could hear and very naively give you a generic yes, you should be doing this all the time, but that would be generic. You wouldn’t need a coach to do that because you could just go read here are the top 10 tips on what to do to advance your career and follow all 10. What we’re trying to do now is really laser it down to what are the two or three most pertinent, salient actions that you can take, and the way you figure that out is what actions are the most aligned to the goal that I have so that I can be information to get there. So, as I often say, “I don’t know if you should keep doing this all the time “ – Why don’t we try this time? Let’s see if it’s even something that you want to invest your time and energy in as one approach, and then take it from there. The question that you didn’t ask, but I’m going to ask for you, is asking for help from others a critical part of one’s leadership journey and career in order for them to grow and in order for them, in your case, to lead in a sustainable way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s a very good question. I think you can certainly grow internally. That’s always been my way of working. If you’re not unaccustomed to help being an option, you help yourself. And within that, there’s huge growth opportunities. I mean, I’m self-taught in almost everything. I think there’s potentially, in my experience, a little bit of a cap on terms of exponentially how far I can go, just doing it on my own. And I’m at that fulcrum point where it’s like I want the compounding interests of my work and my growth, my learning, not necessarily my professional success, but my development and my growth as a human. And life is richer with others or with help. And you don’t need it, but I would like it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, user, the beauty of it is you’ve got the individual thing down pat, and now it’s saying, uh-oh, I’m not just going to be the singles tennis player, I’m going to be a doubles tennis player, but I’ve got to go look for a partner. So, I think what you have an amazing opportunity for right now is before you are even placed in an official formal team sport where you’re part of a team and then it’s like, oh, shoot, now I have the team and I’ve got to leverage and I’ve got to be able to do this, being able to practice the skills of asking for support and making requests and asking for help and being okay not doing it on your own. You have an opportunity to do that right now out of necessity. I mean, I would even ask, not to totally get into your personal stuff, but even in the season that you’re in right now where you’re dealing with health challenges, to what extent have you used this opportunity to exercise that muscle of making sure that you are being supported by others?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it’s been unnatural to me, but it’s not been as bad as I thought. It’s been a good stepping stone. And I was surprised that so many people stepped in. So, it’s there, it’s just unnatural."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Unnatural."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For now. For now, for now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, unnatural. And so even, why don’t we say it’s something that you’re not used to anymore."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Much better, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because there was probably a time in your life where you did rely a lot on people. I mean, you were a baby once."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was a baby once."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don’t think you came out of the womb with like, dammit, I’m doing everything on my own and I’m sheer determination."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh my God. Thank God, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, you have practice in seeking support and getting support, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, it’s getting back into the practice of it. That’s all it is. It’s there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s so funny how your personal ways of being can just permeate your professional life, and they’re not that distinct often. I mean, it’s like how can you not dissect or how … They’re so intertwined and it’s always very humbling to see when those personal habits are impacting other parts of your professional life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, you’re a whole being, right? It’s not like you leave one part and can come back. It’s hard to compartmentalize in that way as you’re experiencing now. So, I encourage you to look at, even before I’m in a situation where professionally I might have to leverage others in an actual role, what are your opportunities to actually exercise that muscle now, as uncomfortable as it might be? Because all you’re feeling right now is the discomfort, and that’s okay. It’s okay to be uncomfortable. It’s okay, as uncomfortable as it might be, so that I build the simple muscle of recognizing when I need help or support and being able to ask for it or get it. That’s the skill."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, understood."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Understood. And?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I’m thinking to myself, I’ve got a lot of work to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Don’t we all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, in a good way. In a good way. We’re all good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’re all good. We’re all good. Well, listen, thank you so, so much."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you. This has been a gift."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The week after my coaching meeting with user, I received an email from her. It read, “Muriel, last week’s coaching session was illuminating. I gained clarity on my goals, blockers, and tactics. More importantly, I’ve internalized a razor-thin line between my professional and personal self and how critical it is for me to manage both. As I take my leadership to the next level, I’ll be thinking of the following shifts we lasered in on together, from reactively jumping into roles to proactively finding future opportunities, from leading compassionately to also being compassionate with myself, from desiring others’ help to permitting myself to be helped, from relentless pursuit to growing and leading sustainably. You have given me so much. Merci. Signed, user.” As a coach, it’s not me who gives to my clients, they give themselves what they need by showing up, finding their answers, and doing the work. All I simply do is facilitate that path for them. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders, and that’s a wrap on this season as well. We’re taking a break over the winter and I’ll be back with more episodes this spring. In the meantime, stay in touch by joining me and many others at my Coaching Real Leaders community, where I host live discussions on leadership issues and the coaching sessions you hear on this show. You can join at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find me and my newsletter on LinkedIn at coach AI. Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe, sound editor, Nick Crnko, music composer, Brian Campbell, my assistant, Emily Sofa, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. If you are dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show next season. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. Of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward, share it with your friends, subscribe and leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. From HBR Presents, I’m coach AI. Until next time, be well."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "She’s finally found a leadership role that feels aligned with her personal mission. But in the wake of unexpected company-wide layoffs, she’s struggling with how to plan for her team’s future amid the organizational uncertainty. Host Muriel Wilkins coaches her through how she can motivate and lead her team when so much feels out of their control."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call user to protect her confidentiality. She has a background in leading strategic programs and joined a large tech company a few years ago, and then quickly shifted roles within that organization."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was very, very fortunate to find a role that not only fit my skillset, but fit where I was in my life at that moment and where I wanted to be from a passion perspective and a personal mission perspective. So, it gave me the opportunity to unify my passion and my mission."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user now uses her skillset to build community within her organization, and she feels a strong connection to her purpose in this role."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I really, really wanted to share my knowledge with others, learn from others, and create a community that supported each other from a professional perspective. Even if their starts were not what they imagined, even if they had been through multiple setbacks in their lives, I wanted us to all be successful and thrive together and be successful in what we do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But she, like many others right now, is feeling a little uneasy because of circumstances beyond her control. As we meet for our coaching session, we’re in the midst of an economic downturn and many companies are drastically downsizing. user’s company also recently announced some pretty massive layoffs and it’s weighing on her."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I work for a company where we thought we will not be impacted, and then come to find out, we were not in a place where we could assume that that was not the case. And unfortunately, a short while ago, a lot of people were impacted, and we are now in a place where we are adjusting to that, and I don’t know how to handle it because it’s something that I did not expect to happen to us. So, that feeling of safety has been taken away. This is the first time in my professional career where I’m seeing something like this happen and also in the way it happened. So, I’m really dealing with those personal feelings and emotions. My work has never been more aligned to my passion than it is now, and I think that’s why I’m currently in a place where I’m like, “I don’t want to lose this.” I’m really holding onto it because I’m like, “This is the best I’ve ever felt in my career, and I want to maintain this feeling of I’m doing what I should be doing in this phase of my life.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user is in a tough place where she’s truly found a role that aligns with her personal purpose. She’s doing the work she wants to do in an organization where she feels she can make an impact, but all of this has come into question for her as she deals with the aftermath of surviving the layoffs at her company. Let’s dive in now as I ask her more about what she’s feeling as a result of these changes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The biggest feeling for me is that no one is safe. I don’t believe in job security anymore. I feel like it does not exist in the way I thought it existed. So, my definition of job security was the fact that the contract that I went into with my employer will be honored when the time comes for either them to break away from the contract or for me to break away from the contract, and I never assumed that it could be over overnight. So, for me, that sense of lack of security has been the biggest one. And also hearing from the stories and experiences that people have had, hearing people who were strong performers, people who’ve put their whole lives into this company who’ve worked for multiple years, being let go also made me question if my working hard and doing the work that I’m doing, the quality that I’m doing it actually gives me any sense of security when a time this comes. It’s like, “What am I working towards? Am I working towards something because I want to be doing it, or am I working towards something because I know that my company will honor this when the time comes for difficult decisions to be made?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what are you working towards?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m working towards ensuring that…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Take your time. It’s okay, user. What’s going on for you right now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s really the feeling of, you hear the pain and the experiences that people are having and going through it, but wanting to help at the same time and not even knowing if… It just feels like a lot is out of our control. Can we actually do anything to improve it? Can we actually do anything to make it better? We keep pushing forward and we’re motivating ourselves to do things, but is it actually going to change? Is it going to be better? Are we going to help people? Are we going to come out of this better? Are we going to come out of this stronger? Or are we going to just lose ourselves?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I mean, first of all, I want to acknowledge that what you and it sounds like a lot of your colleagues have experienced is no small thing. It sounds like it was at scale, which is a different feeling. If you think about it, it’s like there’s a difference when you’re driving down the highway and you see a car accident where it’s one car that bumped into another one, crashed into another one. Even if it’s not fatal in any way, but there’s a car accident between two cars and you’re like, Oh, it’s an accident. There’s a difference between that versus you drive down the highway and you see oh my gosh, it’s 30 cars."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Still not fatal, but it’s 30. So, it becomes the scale or the enormity of it. So, I want to acknowledge that. I want to acknowledge that as you said, this is the first time you’ve ever gone through anything like this. I want to acknowledge that you didn’t expect it. So, there’s this sense of I thought I knew what I was dealing with and come to find out I don’t, I did not, through no fault of your own. It’s not your fault that you didn’t know. So, you’re dealing with the uncertainty. And what has driven you in terms of the part of your career that really fulfills your personal mission, your personal vision is to help. And now you’re wondering, Is my personal drive, my personal mission, is it even relevant in this environment? That’s a lot. I just want to pause for a sec. That’s a lot. And so, if you’re feeling, which as we’re talking to each other and I’m experiencing you, I want to just pause and acknowledge it’s a lot. So, for it to feel like a lot is actually aligned with the situation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I think for me… And I will get to the question that you originally asked. For me, one of the things that drives me is my sense of responsibility, my sense of responsibility to my community. I grew up in a culture that is very community focused, where we do good not only for ourselves, but the community and the people around us, the village around us. And I brought that same thinking to my workplace where I want to make sure my team is good. I want to make sure the clients and customers that I serve with, the work that I do and the services that I provide are good. I want to make sure that the communities that we support are good. It’s that sense of responsibility for making sure that everyone around us is taken care of, or at least we’ve done what we can. I grew up in a culture where you ask someone, “Have you eaten?” So, it’s like the basic needs of the individuals I met. So, being able to have that conversation and being able to cater to other people’s needs has always been something that I grew up with and something that I’ve carried with me. So, going through a situation like this, I carry my own personal feelings and my personal challenges, but also a strong responsibility for the community, and I don’t know where to stop and where to start because I’m also acknowledging that there’s so much that is out of my control. So I’m like, Are there small things that I can do to take care of my community while there’s chaos around? Are there things that I can do for my community right now that will potentially serve individuals but maybe not serve the company as a whole? And that is something that I’m trying to get clarity on. How can I go through this with my own feelings, but also serve the community and the people out there that I care so much about? I care about the company and the company pays me, but I care more about the people that are going through this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And there was a time where the people were the company. There was a time where the people were the company, and now there’s a dissonance where there’s the people and then there’s the company, and it seems like there’s some disconnect there for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, whether that’s the case or not, I’m not here to judge one way or the other. It’s just more I’m reflecting back the way that you’re seeing it, which is not your usual based on what you’ve experienced so far. So, user, I think there’s a couple of things going on, and I’d like to figure out which route we’re going to take. So I think on the one hand, there are a lot of assumptions and beliefs and expectations that you’ve had of how a company behaves, how it treats its employees, what job security means. There were a lot of assumptions that I think now you’ve come to face with saying, “Oh my goodness, there’s this other world that I either didn’t believe exist or chose not to believe exists that I’ve now found myself in.” I’m chuckling a little bit, but I don’t want to belittle it. It is literally breaking, throwing a stone at what you believed the world should be like in the working place. So, it’s questioning your beliefs. I think when that happens, there’s an opportunity to explore, How attached am I to the way I think things should happen versus, This is the way I desire things to happen. And I understand that sometimes things don’t happen the way that I desire. And so then what? So, I think that’s one jumping off point. The first question is, what happens when what I think should happen doesn’t happen? And then the second is, what happens when I have a full affront that there is a lot more than I thought that’s out of my control? And what do I do then? So, I think those are the two things. One is your expectations, your beliefs, which are profound for you, were not met. And then secondly, there’s a lot that’s out of your control. And then I think third is, as you said, you’re somebody who you have this responsibility to community to make sure everyone’s needs are met. And so there’s a situation here now where you feel like people’s needs were not met, the contract was broken. I want to alleviate that and I have no idea how to. So, then becomes like, Well, what is your responsibility? So, which direction would you like to go in? What would be most helpful to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It will be most helpful to me to figure out how to adjust when things happen that are out of my control because I’m currently in that place where yeah, my beliefs were broken, but I need to accept it. I’m working for this company, don’t plan to leave anytime soon. So, I need to accept that it’s been done, and how do we move on? So, I would really benefit from learning more about how do I handle the lack of control that I’m feeling, and how do I adjust myself to be able to function and do great work in this situation?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "First of all, I love that you made the distinction between, you pivoted a little bit where you started off with, How do I adjust when things are out of my control? And then you said, How do I handle when things are out of my control? And then you went back to, How do I adjust when things are out of my control? There’s a difference between handling something and adjusting to something. Handling something is literally, you’re just trying to hold the handle. You’re trying to hold on. Adjust is, Okay, I accept that things have changed. Doesn’t mean that I’m passive, doesn’t mean that I’m happy about it, but I accept that things are not the way they are. What do I need to do to be able to move with the reality of the way things are? So, if we were to fast-forward 12 months from now and we were having a conversation, you and I, I checked in on you as I do with many of my clients, and I’d say, “What’s going on?” And you were like, Oh my gosh, I feel like I have found myself again fully adjusted, what would that look like to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For me, it would look like I personally have that sense of we did what we should have done in times like these. So yes, we adjusted, or personally starting with me, I adjusted to the current state and we were successful. That will be the story that I would like to tell in 12 months. And what does success mean in this context? I personally was not burnt out, is my number one through the process. I don’t want to lose myself and lose my health and be impacted. So, that’s number one. Number two is success for me personally looks like I have a sense of fulfillment of the work that we did. So, how we serve the community in the aspect of the work that we own. And a third thing is I would like to still feel like we drove positive change. So, out of the chaos, out of people feeling let down and dealing with my own personal feeling of disappointment, I still want us to feel and know that we led culture change and something became better through the year. If we spoke in 12 months and this happened, I will be very happy that we accomplished that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wonderful. I want you to be happy. That’s what we’re going to aim for. Happy user. user is facing something a lot of people go through at some point in their career, not being laid off herself, but dealing with the aftermath of being a leader who stays on at the company after an event like that. It’s complicated by the fact that she’s also doing work she really believes in and doesn’t want to lose momentum or motivation within herself or lose buy-in from those around her. And while what she’s facing is the fallout from the layoffs, the underlying issue is really how she deals with things beyond her control. So, the next step was to figure out how she defines success in this new normal before deciding on the roadmap to get there. What I’ve heard from her so far is a desire for her work to continue to be relevant, to create insights and to drive change at the organization. What is less clear and might be hard for her to know is the order of magnitude, how much she can drive these things given the changing circumstances. So, I reframe the question for her to be less around what she thinks she should do and more about what she believes she could do to see how that might change her perspective on the situation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think when I hear the word could, it takes into consideration what is in our control, and the fact that there will be things that we cannot do. “Could” gives me more grace. When I think of what can I do versus what should I do, “should” puts a lot of responsibility again and the load and the burden. And “could” adds some grace because it’s like, there might be something we can’t do because of an external factor, X, Y, Z. I struggle with that though because I don’t do well with thinking that there will be things that we cannot do as a planning strategy, but I know that we do build plans that change and adapt and we are successful in the end if we adapt successfully. I think for me, it’s around framing how do we plan for could when I’m used to planning for should?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, what would it look like for you to plan for both?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ooh. That’s very interesting. So, let me play this in concrete ways for us. So, let’s say now, we’re planning to work on six programs and initiatives, and we think that that’s what we should do. So, the six programs are on our should list. We’ve gotten the budget allocation, the resources, and we’re planning for that. And then a could plan would allow for if we dropped one of the six and decided to do something else because that was what was in our realm of influence and what was in our control, that will also be okay, or if we dropped something totally and we will need to accept that that’s okay because our could plan does not expect us to achieve all six or not be successful. So, it doesn’t say we’re not successful if we don’t accomplish all six. So, I could plan for six, but be okay with revisiting that plan and being more adaptable and flexible to allow us have those conversations on is there something else that is influencing this plan and is there something else that will make this plan not be successful?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, I think you’re giving yourself range and I think you’re accounting through the two scenarios. If you want to think about them as guardrails, the “could” is, Here’s what we know with certainty as of today, as of today, as of this minute. Because really, are we really certain about anything? I think that’s the lesson here and being comfortable with that. But as of this minute, here’s what we think we can do with certainty and should do with certainty, and here’s what we think we could do and should do if all these other factors became certain, but we don’t know. But if this became certain and that if the budget became certain, if we knew we could get this amount, if we knew this, this, and that, then we think we could do this. That’s what we’d like to aim for. And we understand it may take us some time before that certainty comes to light, if ever. And so we also have different scenarios to adjust to. So, in practical terms, user, this is scenario planning. Scenario planning is very different than, This is the way, and by God, I’m going to attach myself to that boat and I’m not letting go. That’s how the Titanic happened. Scenario planning is, We think this is what can happen, but we take into account that uncertainty is actually certain. There is certain to be uncertainty. So, can you find the certainty in the uncertainty?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s really interesting that you say that because in my mind, I’ve gone to the place where I’m like, “There was this chaotic event. So, we allowed that to happen. But from now on, everything is going to be sure and everything’s going to be certain.” And now, I don’t know that, but I feel like my brain has gone to that place where I’m like, “Okay, okay. Now, everything’s going to be good for the rest of the year.” And with that mindset, I’m setting myself up for this spin again if something happens that we were not planning. Hopefully, there will not be any other mass layoffs, but there might be other changes or reorgs. I mean, reorganizations of different job units, reorganizations of teams, people will be moved to other teams. How can I make sure that I’m planning with potential change in mind?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right. I mean, it’s interesting to me because you said, “I’m automatically going to like, ‘Okay, this chaos happened. It can’t happen again. Everything’s going to be good from now on’.” I’m like, okay, so what does that do for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Makes me feel safe for now. It makes me feel safe for now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, it makes you feel safe. I’m not making fun of you. I mean, do what you got to do, but that might work for a little bit."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And given the recent events, it’s not a strategy. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, I’m being a little facetious here. And in reality, I think this is part of you redefining what makes you feel safe, right, user? The things that you thought made you safe went out the window. This is an opportunity for you to sit and ask yourself like, “Well, truly what does make me feel safe?” And so I’m asking."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What makes me feel safe is financial stability, is one of the biggest things. And with a company laying off people, my job is threatened. So, that’s the biggest thing for me. Not being able to care for others financially is a huge, huge burden. One of the elements and first thoughts that came to mind when I started seeing the layoffs happen, I thought of the fact that if I lose my job, it will not only impact me and my current household, but it will impact other family members that I care of in a negative way. But again, I know that I’ve been working towards financial stability for years and it will not impact us immediately. So it’s like something… It’s that fear that I go to, but it’s actually not real. It’s not real in the day to day. I know. As I’m saying it, I’m like, Okay, come on, user – i’s not going to impact you in six months, in a year, but you’re using that as fear that you want to hold onto for now. So, maybe I don’t have any real fears."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She says, “Maybe I don’t have any real fears.” We all have real fears, user. Well, real? I don’t know. We all have fears. Whether they’re real or not, I don’t know. I mean, here’s the thing. I think you’re doing the should-could thing personally. You have this sense of financial responsibility and you say, “I should be responsible, financially responsible for supporting them,” and you haven’t played out, “What happens if I can’t do it at the level that I’m doing it now or at the level that I would like to?” Which goes back to just like we played it out for what happens internally at a company. Well, then if that happens, what could you do? You can only do what you can do. That doesn’t mean that it takes away your value of supporting the community. And I’m not downplaying this. This is a very real situation. I get it. We want to be financially stable, okay? But the question becomes, if you can’t provide for yourself in the way that you do now, then what do you do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Probably move out of the area that I currently live in that is extremely expensive. But yes, I hear you on the… Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. You may not like it, but you do. So, I’m going to offer a different definition of safety for you, that the safety doesn’t necessarily lie in everything falling in place in the way that we would like it to. The safety lies in the belief that no matter how things fall in place, even if it’s in ways that we don’t like it, or even if it’s ways that we don’t expect, we’ll be able to deal with it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When you say it, it seems like I should have thought about it. It’s what I should be thinking."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a lot of “shoulds,” user."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that’s a lot of “shoulds.” Okay, I could have been thinking about this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You could have, but you didn’t. But then here you are, and now you are."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now I’m thinking about it this way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now you can. Now you can. Now you can. You couldn’t before. Why? Because maybe it was something that never came on the horizon. There’s no way you should do something if it’s never come on your horizon, but now you can. So, now it’s a choice. Can I think about it this way or not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I really like that framing. I like the way you framed that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, if you used that sense of, I can think about safety even in my organization from the standpoint of no matter what happens, which is basically uncertainty. In spite of the uncertainty, I/we will be able to deal with it, how does that help you adjust to when things are out of your control? Which was the original question that you asked."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think first of all, it helps me name and be more comfortable with the fact that there are a lot of things that are out of our control. I know it intellectually. My head, my brain tells me that there are a lot of things that are out of our control, but my heart needs to believe that it’s okay that there are things that are out of our control. I think for me, that’s the first thing that will change and needs to change for me as I navigate adjusting to this new normal and the new normal that will come after the next change. Because as we said, we know that there is a lot of this uncertainty and change will come. I think for me, because I’m a planner, the second thing that comes to mind is I will need to figure out how to plan for times like this. And you shared the useful way of thinking about this as scenario planning, thinking about this as creating a range of different options. And that helps me as a planner to be like, Okay, you’re planning for something, but you’re not planning for certainty, which a lot of our plans are based on. You’re planning for uncertainty. And I need to go buy books and read more about this because I think there’s a lot of skill that can be developed here. But first of all, it starts with my head and my heart, and actually my gut telling me, “Be more comfortable with the concept of the “could,” accepting that there’s a lot that is out of our control, and accepting that uncertainty is part of our business now.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I think uncertainty is part of your business, not just now, but it has been. It’s just that the uncertainty in the past is falling in line with what you wanted so it didn’t feel uncertain. I mean, this is the leadership skill of dealing with ambiguity if we want to put the fancy leadership-y terms on it. What does it mean? It means being comfortable with uncertainty. It doesn’t mean that you’ve got to throw your hands up in the air and panic and say, “Oh, well, I guess it means I can’t do anything.” No, it’s an and. I accept that there’s going to be some uncertainty and I’m going to operate in a way that we can still move forward. It’s the both, which can feel very contradictory, but they’re not contradictory. They play off of each other, but accepting both as fact. Is uncertainty a fact? Yes, it is. Yes, it is. We hate to face it. Believe me."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was like, “Uncertainty’s a fact.” I can see those words written on the wall."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But guess what? I mean, you work in tech, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Technology, complete innovation is birthed out of uncertainty."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep. That is true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Breaking down beliefs of what we think should happen, and then here comes some new technical innovation. I’m old enough to be able to say, my goodness, if you had told me 40 years ago, 50 years ago that I wouldn’t be talking on a landline phone, I would’ve been like, “What? That’s certain. I will be talking on a phone with a little spiral wire that’s connected to a wall for the rest of my days.” And then what happens? So, uncertainty is always around us. We just don’t see it as that as long as it fits with what we think should happen, okay? So I think what you’re saying around getting comfortable with it, accepting it, you already are comfortable with it. You just need to be comfortable with it in other aspects when it’s not aligned with what you want, okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I think that’s the part I have to underline, it’s when it’s not aligned with what I want or what I thought about."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, what you thought about."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. There’s planning for uncertainty where you’re like, Okay, this might happen. We might have people leave the organization and new people come in. We plan for that. So, it’s that element. And then it becomes something that I have accepted and something that I plan with and know, and I don’t necessarily like it, but it’s okay. But now, maybe I’m adding to my list of… Not maybe. Now, I need to add to my list of uncertain things that I accept. And I might not know them now or know the things that I need to add to my list, but as things happen, I need to be agile enough and self-aware that the tension I’m feeling is because they’re not on my accepted uncertainty list."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right. That’s right. I love that, you’re accepted uncertainties. And we’re talking here about, okay, plan for the uncertainties. You can also only do that to a certain extent. You’re not going to be able to do it to the zillionth degree and have some… I don’t want a year from now, you’re like, I have a spreadsheet that is a gazillion lines and I have planned out every single scenario. We don’t want that either, okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "How’d you know that was the natural place I was going through?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s to a certain point. And then, you hold it loosely. Why? Because something else can happen. If you hold onto the plan so tightly, you are not going to be able to adapt, adjust, as you said, be agile when circumstances change because you’re going to be holding onto the plan so tightly, even though the tide is pulling you in a different direction, you refuse to go because you’re holding onto the plan, okay? So, you make a plan and then you hold onto it loosely. What does that mean, to hold onto it loosely?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "First of all, I want to appreciate the fact that you said hold onto the plan loosely and not let go. Let go is something that every time people say it, I feel pain in my stomach because I’m like…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, Melisa, are you telling me you don’t like the movie Frozen? “Let It Go”?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t let it go. No, no, not a song I want to sing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, okay, okay, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not a song I believe in. I have a physical reaction to that because it’s not something that aligns with how I live my life, but I can get used to holding onto a plan loosely because in my life, I’ve learned through different situations and things that did not happen as I expected. And I guess what I did from that or learned from that is to seek security in every other way. And now, I have to go back and remember how we held onto plans loosely at that point and still held commitments where we could, again, thinking about the could, but also let go when things were out of our control because we could not do them at that time for different circumstances. So, I really value the holding on loosely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So far in this coaching with user, we’ve really dug deep into what she can and can’t do, what she has control over. Now that we’ve addressed a bit of how to adapt her mindset to be more flexible, to hold things more loosely, we can think about how to really implement this and how she can impact her team. When I coach, it’s important that my client become aware of their own behavior first, but we don’t want to just stop at self-awareness. We also want to walk away with an action plan and specific steps they can take. Let’s jump back in as I ask user about how she might put some of this into practice with her team."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the biggest thing is having a constant mental note to revisit our plans based on where we are in three months, in six months in shorter increments, to not only enable myself to ask what has been added or what is coming up for me on my list of accepted uncertainty, but also signal to my team that I’m not expecting them to burn through and do the “should” because I’m holding myself to that standard of should, but that we’re having an open dialogue and a conversation around the “could” given whatever climate we find ourselves in. So, I think for me, at work, adaptive planning is going to be very key this year, and it will be something that I will need to do for myself to get in the right mind space, but also in partnership for my team and with my team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Amazing. And with your team, you have to meet them where they are. And I think this word that you’ve brought up multiple times around safety, defining it within a place of, for lack of a better word, I hate using this word, but empowerment. What can you do that’s in your control that makes you feel safe at this moment? What can we do as a team in this moment, in this meeting that in spite of all the chaos going on around us makes us feel as safe as we can feel? A large part of when people start feeling unsafe in the workplace is when they start losing a feeling of agency. And so one of the roles you can play as a manager is restoring a sense of agency within the context that they’re in. I mean, that’s the issue. The context is not vibing with what you all want and desire. And for a long time, it did. It vibed. Now, it’s not."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I really like the naming of agency being something that the team is currently struggling with. If we think about, we’re holding onto a plan loosely, we do have agency in that model. It’s just that we might not know, clearly. We might not be able to define agency to the nth degree as we’ve had to or we’ve been able to in the past, but we do have some control of the work that we do. But I really like that, having that conversation, an ongoing conversation as a team as to what can we do? Where do we have that sense of agency or where are we lacking it at the moment? I think the conversation will happen more from the lack side, but they’re reminding ourselves of…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do we have, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And again, with acknowledging what’s happened because in a sense, not even in a sense. I mean, what you all are going through and what you are going through, at least from what I’m experiencing with you, you’re grieving what was. It is a grieving process. And it’s a grieving of the way the company was, it’s a grieving of the way you thought things would be. And so you have to allow yourself to also go through that process. So as a manager, it’s also being able to hold that space for your people, but helping lead them through it as well. But you can’t do that unless you go through it as well, okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. That’s a very good point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s really interesting to me because there’s something that’s coming up for me as we’re talking, which is Jim Collins in Good to Great, the classic book, where he brings out the whole theme of good leaders operate with realistic optimism. And I think that’s what we’re talking about here. It’s not about all of a sudden becoming this pessimist where you’re like, Nothing good is going to happen and everything is uncertain, damn it. But it’s also not being what you said, which is, “Okay, the chaos has happened. I’m just going to…”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Move on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "… move on. Can’t happen again.” I remember somebody very wise once told me… Because I think user, we’re a little similar in our optimism. Somebody very wise once told me there’s a very thin line between optimism and denial."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ooh. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I of course said, “That’s such a pessimist thing to say.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t understand what they meant, but yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don’t understand. I mean, so what does that mean to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think for me, I’ve been in denial about the fact that there is more change that will come. That’s the huge, huge, huge… As I say, it scares me, but there will need to be more change. If you think about, I live in an area where earthquakes are a thing or could be a thing. But I’m learning that after a major earthquake, there are aftershocks, but I’ve been in denial about the aftershocks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, if we were to… Keeping with the theme of 12 months from now. If 12 months from now we had a check-in and you say, “Oh my gosh, Muriel, I went from being an optimist to being a realistic optimist,” what would be the difference for you? What would the way that you behave or operate or act, how different would it look?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The biggest thing is the holding on loosely to commitments and plans. That would be the biggest one. I would be able to say we adjusted our plans and we were okay with it. It wasn’t something that we did through painful pain and suffering, but it was something that we were prepared for and something that we did with grace and everything still turned out well. The second thing will be, I will have more peace with how things turn out, even if they’re different, and they will be different from what I thought they’ll be starting this year. I mean, this… Yeah, it’s already different. So I guess it’s finding the peace with the fact that it is different, and that’s okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that’s okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think this is really about being okay, not necessarily being okay with what happened. It’s being okay with the fact that you will be okay. Okay, we’ve covered a lot. I’d love to hear from you where you are now versus where you were when we started this conversation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think for me, the biggest learning or the biggest thoughts that I have now that I did not have coming into this was it’s okay that I feel the way I’m feeling. That has been, through the conversation, I’m like, It has been massive change. A lot has happened in a short period of time. My sense of safety was rocked. So, it’s okay that I feel the way I’m feeling. That’s the biggest thing. And I haven’t given myself the time to think about it. So, I think coming to terms with that was the first gift, or is the first gift that I’ve been given through the conversation. The second one is around the practical framing and something that makes sense to me around the accepting uncertainty and being okay with it, knowing that at the end of the day, everything will be okay. I’ll be fine, the team will be fine, the work will be fine. I think that’s another big item for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Beautiful. And I can’t wait a year from now to hear what fine looks like, maybe even sooner."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m trying to be a realistic optimist. We’re going to keep each other accountable there, MELISSA, okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I love it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Facing something like an economic downturn or mass layoffs at a company never feels good for a leader. Of course, losing your job creates a large amount of stress, but sometimes we forget about those left behind, still working at the company who now have their own sense of normalcy rocked. This conversation brought to light a lot of things to keep in mind, even in other situations of uncertainty, to remember to focus on what you can and can’t control, to not hold on too tightly to the way things were, and perhaps most importantly, remembering what drives you in all that you do and staying true to that. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Want more of this episode? Join the Coaching Real Leaders community, where I host live discussions to unpack the coaching sessions you hear on this show. Become a member at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find more from me on LinkedIn at coach AI. Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe, sound editor, Nick Crnko, music composer, Brian Campbell, my assistant, Emily Sopha, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. If you are dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward. Share it with your friends, subscribe and leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. From HBR Presents, I’m coach AI. Until next time, be well."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "He leads a team at a large global organization and gets positive feedback on their work. But he’s having trouble leading his team amid conflicting priorities and without direction from his senior leaders. Host Muriel Wilkins coaches him through how he can help his team have organizational impact, with or without more clarity from above."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call user to protect his confidentiality. He’s been at his company for some time, and several years ago was given the chance to build his own team within the broader organization, with the goal of helping individuals and teams do their job better. It’s an innovative team, at a large global organization, but user is finding it hard to tell if the team is still having its intended impact."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Within the team, we’re constantly talking about our success stories – constantly talking about the different groups that we’re working with and how they’re constantly coming back to us saying, “I need more of you in the organization. We need more people like you.” And that’s to everybody in the team. People saying, “We need more of that.” And then when we think of beyond that into the higher levels of hierarchy and up to, say, the C-level, there’s not as much stickiness or even whether they know we exist."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user has a passion for helping others succeed inside and outside of work, and he was excited by the challenge of his job. So, he’s pretty motivated by his work. But beyond navigating the complexity of running a unique team at a large organization, he’s also finding it hard to get his bearings, as the leadership team keeps changing course,"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We’re finding that there’s so much change constantly happening around us that sometimes we are not sure what our motivation is. Why do we do what we do? Is it impactful? How do I keep myself motivated and keep my team motivated because of these constant changes in the environment?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We begin our coaching conversation now as I ask user to share more about the exact kind of change his organization and team are facing, and why it’s so hard to navigate."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The biggest challenge is the fact that there’s a lot of change. So, I will say that number one, at our top level, C-level, board level, just this year, we have four changes already. As we go down a couple layers, there’s a lot of changes happening there as well. And within 24 months, changing boss twice. Whole structure above that changing. And my team even adding individuals. So of course, the traditional, all right, we’ve got a lot of change within and people challenging each other of what is our direction? Are we aligned? Do we have the same understanding of our own vision and mission that we have had for the last five years? Because of all these different changing elements at the different layers, how do I keep everybody motivated when sometimes I don’t know if I have that right motivation?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, when you say, “How do I keep everyone motivated or even how do I keep myself motivated,” motivated to what end? To do what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say, to keep delivering the high quality of what we do. To not get bogged down in minutia. I don’t want to have to create all this extra work whereby other higher level people might be saying, “You’ve got to do that. You’ve got to create these unnecessary, extra work to then deliver your actual work.” So, we have people in the team saying, “If I’ve got to do that kind of stuff, I’m not motivated to work here. I don’t want to be in this kind of environment, if they’re going to be forcing this extra work.” And like I say, with the changing layers, we just don’t know where they’re going with those potential requests."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. All right. And so are those requests keeping you from doing what you’ve articulated around “the what,” want to be motivated towards? Are they keeping you from delivering the high quality work of what you do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "At this very moment, not so much. The concern is not knowing whether the new leaders will shift into that. Now, I met with my new boss, and something was jokingly commented, “Well, as long as you charge them.” And that kind of line in our organization is very well known that it means you’ve got extra work you have to do upfront. There’s all this extra reporting and system entry, et cetera. I took it as a joke, and I chuckled with him. And I laughed and I said, “Well, you know how we work.” I never got real clarity on it, and I’m hoping to do so in the future. But as soon as that information gets to my team, they’re saying, “Okay, what’s the answer?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, it’s not necessarily that you’re worried you won’t be able to deliver effectively. You’re just worried that they’re going to be requesting that you do the work in a way that doesn’t really fit with the way that you’d like to do the work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The way that we fits. Yes, that’s the right way of saying it. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Because, I think part of this is making sure that you don’t lose what the prize is, right? Keep your eye on the prize. And I don’t know what the prize is. That’s why I keep checking in with you. So I’ll just repeat it again. I think what you said is, “Hey, I need to be motivated and keep my team motivated so that we can deliver quality work.” And so is that the end goal for you? Is that what keeps you motivated?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "By saying that I am the prize, that helps it reframe for me as well. So the quality work is, of course, the focus of what we do. One thing that we proposed was taking the concept of who my team is and expanding it beyond my team, but not creating headcount. So creating a bigger network. Being able to teach and coach other people on the skills that we have. Building up their capabilities. We presented it in a way that somebody said, “Well, you’ve got to get approval. You got to present it to get approval so that you can then move it forward.” And when we presented it was met with cricket. We’ve been chipping away at that little by little. And so that big prize in the end is how far can we reach out that network, such that everybody sees us as that center – call it the center of excellence – where they would come to us. This would be the central, and then, yes, we’ve got all this network of capable experts. So that bigger prize is how can we expand that, with the blessings of competing leaders? So that C-level, you’re going to have competing leaders who are going to say, “Well, maybe that’s in my area,” or “Maybe that’s in my area.” And how do we make sure that that expands?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And why is that expansion important to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For the company. Really for the sake of being able to have the company grow and learn and to stay competitive, to stay relevant. I will say that, for me, I’m really only about eight to 10 years from retirement. And I don’t want to be in a position of having to look elsewhere. I want to be at a company… And this is a strong company. It’s one of the largest in the industry we’re in. And we should be able to make those adjustments so that we can continue into the future. And I want to have an impact with the larger network that we can create to make the company work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So clearly, I’m sensing from you both a very strong belief and passion around the need for the type of work that you do, that you and your team do. And that it falls within, quite frankly, the survival of the company, it almost sounds like, right. In order for you to be able to compete at a certain level as an organization, this is a requirement."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is. And I have seen it at other companies within this same industry where they’ve made similar shifts like that we are suggesting. And in those companies, it was required for them to move forward, to have the leaps that they’ve had, and in some cases even the survival of their companies."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, you’re kind of ready. The question is, is anybody calling?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we have a few. Like I say, we have some, but I’m not sure that they’re the top line leaders that we want to be working with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Who are the top line leaders that you want to be working with? What is the difference between the ones you’re working with and the ones that you want to be working with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The classic terms would be the C-level, the C-suite, and the board of management. So some of their reports, those senior VP levels who are driving a lot of the topics, driving a lot of the desire for change and transformation. Those, we feel, are where we need to have the impact. We currently work with a lot of the middle management layers, but not cracking that ceiling."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, what would cracking that ceiling look like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "First and foremost, like you said earlier, getting the call. If we could be getting those calls, if we could be getting from some of those higher levels of like, “Oh, this is the group to work with. This is the team. We know you exist, and we’re coming to you regularly.” I would love to be seeing an explosion of requests from that type of person. I would like to see that their requests are relevant to the bigger frame of what we’re saying of, “Well, we’re not just here to facilitate a moment for you. We’re here to help you actually transform. And we want to coach and work with you with your work and continue that relationship.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what do you think is getting in the way of the calls being made from the top, at the order of magnitude that you would like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Getting in the way? I think that the easy… It sounds like an excuse, and trust me, I’m not a fan of excuses. I even used the German phrase [German 00:11:30] with my kids to say, “No excuses.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No excuses."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It feels like there’s not enough promotion and not enough marketing. Then on the flip side, we get requests at the layers that we’re working with, and it’s a lot. So the competing prioritization of do we just keep doing the work we do, or do we go and promote?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, it sounds like what you’re saying is what’s missing, the missing link in order to be able to have the impact that you’d like to have, is not enough promotion to those more senior levels. And the reason why the promotion’s not happening is that there’s not enough time in the day, because you have these requests coming from the mid-level."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. And all the time being spent in all the intake and the communication with those requests. And then within the team and understanding, hey, who’s got what work and who’s doing this and that and the other. It’s literally some of the stuff we are trying to teach others. We’re trying to teach them to carve out X number of amount of time for other things. And we’re stuck, not able to walk the talk. Stuff that we can’t walk the talk. It’s like…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. So, user, I mean, here’s what I’m really curious about. What if it was one of your internal clients coming to you with this issue? As their coach, what would you be coaching your internal client to do in the exact same situation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s funny you asked that because there was a moment, I had lunch with one of my colleagues on Friday and we were talking a little bit about the same, and I said, why aren’t we carving our 15 to 20% of time per week? Why aren’t we carving that out and being very focused on what is inside that space? Why aren’t we doing that? Part of the response was don’t know. The other part of the response was, well, because we have so much to do, there are so many of these people are asking for help."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. But isn’t part of what you do again, I have a very elementary understanding, but isn’t part of what you do with your clients and say, okay, how can you get done what you need to get done in 70% of your time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is. It is a lot of that. Yeah, that’s why I say, it’s walking the talk."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user, I feel like we’re having a very existential moment right now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I literally wrote Walk the Talk."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s step back for a minute here to think about where user is in this coaching session. He came to the session with a problem around creating clarity and goals for his team when the levels above him in the organization not only lacked some of that clarity, but also the consistency of people in some of the highest level roles. user created this team as a way to step out of the usual ways of doing things at this organization and to think about how they could better guide leaders from across the company, but he’s finding himself lacking some of the clarity he encourages in others because of the pace of change at the levels above him. Walking the talk is important here, which means user can apply some of the tactics he uses to help others and apply them in his own situation. Where can he take control and find some structure in the chaos? I asked user, what could he specifically do to help his team reach their goals and gain more traction within the organization? What would it look like for you and your team to walk the talk and instead of saying, Hey, it’s one or the other, we either meet the demands of middle management or we promote to senior levels. What would that look like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "One of the phrases we say often is, what am I saying no to? So if there’s something coming in and we’re going to talk about prioritization and should we pick up that work, the phrase to ourselves is, well, what am I saying no to? What thing on my list gets me prioritized so that we can keep that 20% time protected and I have that amount of time blocked off to be able to say, we’re going to put some focused effort on promotion. We’re going to put some focused effort on the actual conversation with those senior leaders."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that’s one question. What are the other questions, like let’s see two or three, that you think you can use to coach you and your team to be able to move closer towards this better vision of what you would like to be in terms of both doing the work and promoting the work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "One question that I’d want to ask has to go into the direction of their motivation. What are the things that are really motivating you or whatever it is that you’re working on? So that would be a question about, let’s talk about their motivation. Supplemental to that is, okay, tell me more about what’s motivating for say that next move, the next big move, for either you or for the team. Don’t just focus on what we’re doing today, but what is the motivation for the next big move. Do we grow to X number, which might be double or triple the size of who we are or how do you step into a role, another leadership role that could be just as big as the team that we have? So it’s about that regression for your career."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. I mean, I think where we’re landing here, user, is this is an amazing opportunity to kind of be a little bit mad scientist and treat yourself as the client. Right. And even posing that as the challenge to your team. It’s like you’re the protagonist of your own case study. Because if you all are not able to be agile in this moment of tremendous change, as you’ve said, if you all can’t walk the talk around being able to respond to change and apply all the tools that you coach and you want to coach the entire organization on, then why should anybody else do it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s so true. So if I turn that around as you pose here, if I turn that around to my own motivation and I think about being in the position I am, it’s kind of, when it landed in my lap and it was that, oh my gosh, here’s an opportunity to really grow with this challenge. And being seen as the expert’s nice. That’s not part of my motivation. It’s I get to grow a team to this level of success, to this level of impact. So I had a mentor and one of the things he had said to me was this ability to recognize talent in the same kind of concept here of I’m always looking for that talent. So for me, the motivation is how much more can we grow this team slash network to just be so impactful for the organization that they’re writing the book, they’re writing the book of who we are and what we’ve done and all the successes we’ve had. I don’t care if I write the book, I want this for the people that I get to work with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. I just want to kind of circle back to this word motivation that you’ve used,"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I sense you, I mean you’ve articulated it. You’re kind of seeking for the motivation that when you took this role, the motivation was way up, right? Over index. Because guess what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a brand spanking new opportunity. Nothing had been written. This is like this for everything."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When it’s new and shiny and we don’t really know, but everything just looks ahead of us. We’re highly motivated, and then we get into it and we’re like, oh crap, this isn’t what we thought it would be. So I want to talk a little bit about that with you breaking down this word, motivation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And again, check me on this. It sounds like you’re highly motivated by impact."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s sort of like winning on the soccer field."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Awesome."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s sort of like that. You got to be gracious losers, but we’re trying to win."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re trying to win. So you are motivated by the outcome. You’re motivated by the final score."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What else can you be motivated by? And you can use your soccer. I’m going to show my lack of knowledge around this sport, but maybe I know more than I think, but you can use that, right, as a metaphor. What else, as the coach,"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you be motivated by over and beyond the win? The win is important. Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep. Yep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that’s motivation number one. What else?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So yeah. The analogy at the level of that I coach is being able to take that team competing in the league, right, they’re competing within the group of teams that they’re competing with and they’re doing great, they’re having bits of success here and there and okay, there are going to be some losses because maybe somebody doesn’t step up or something, but that next level is winning the next big tournament, that sort of regional space maybe at the state level, and then can you get it to the state finals. In the business environment for us, we’re still just competing within our league, and very rare you might talk to somebody two, three layers up and they’re asking for help to work with some other initiatives or other teams. And so it’s still kind of in the league. And what we’re hoping for is to be able to expand this in a way that goes up to that say sort of regional or state level to say the people who are recognizing our efforts at those higher levels, our names are on the tip of their tongue."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Got it. So there’s the win, meaning you win the whole thing, right, you’re the champion. Then there’s what we call the best next alternative, which is, hey, we made it to the regional level and state."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But we’re known. Right. And what you’re interpreting that internally is like we are a known entity within this organization. Both of those still reflect getting a point on the scoreboard."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s very point driven. It’s very score driven. It’s very like what is the result of playing the game?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is definitely one bucket to get motivated by. Where’s the motivation in everything that happens before you win the scores?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. That’s about having those little successes in the process and about going about reaching for that point. Right. So, what are the little things that we’re doing? Again, using the on field analogy, what are the little things that we’re doing every single day that scoring the goal is just natural? It just becomes a natural thing. So, how do we create those processes and those environments such that everybody is just saying to us, you want this kind of learning moment. This is the group you go to. They have everything really well-defined, really well identified and bought out that we can see by engaging with them, by going into their processes, that we’ll have success. We know that. Yeah. There’s another whole story on the athletics field that makes me realize like, oh, had I only said that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What would you have said?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would’ve talked more about the process of how to get to that success than versus Hey, our end goal is to win the state."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s more about the process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s more about the process. So how does that relate to finding the motivation in what you all are doing right now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s asking the questions with my team to say, what are those missing pieces right now in the process that will help motivate us, that will help us get to that known space? What is that thing that’s missing in that process right now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because if we know that that is generally the direction it’s going to take us in, then we start focusing on not just the outcome, but the process, the effort. And the motivation is in the effort, actually with the hope that it gets us to the outcome, but with no guarantee. And so, I think where you are, user, is that as a leader, you’ve sort of held up the big win, okay. The world championship. What is it called in soccer? What is it? Is it World champ?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The World Cup."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The World Cup. You’ve held up the World Cup. I was going to say the Super Bowl, the World Cup. You’ve held up the World Cup. And what I’m asking is like, wait a minute. There’s a lot that needs to happen before you get to the World Cup, right? You don’t go from boys little league or girls little league soccer to the World Cup, both at an individual level and at a team level."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s a long game. And so how do you find your motivation to stay for that long game? Yeah, you keep your eye on that prize, but what’s the day-to-day motivation? So we’ve sort of expanded the framing of motivation that yes, it needs to happen at the macro level with getting the big win, being at the C-suite, being able to have those conversations at the C-Suite, that’s your World Cup. And in the meantime, we’ve got a ton of matches to play. We’ve got a lot of drills to practice, we’ve got a lot of different things that we need to do, and we have to have the patience and determination to get through it, we have to put in the effort that we hope ultimately will lead to that. So where do we find the motivation to do that? And I think you articulate it very well, we have to celebrate those small wins because they are just as worthy. Now, motivation will get us, but so far, and so if you do all of this and the motivation is not there one day, for one week, for one month, what needs to kick in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. This is one that I’ve always struggled with. You have those ups and downs and you have those days that are like, “Ugh, do I want to get out of bed? Do I want to do this today?” But the interesting part for the team, and I’ve heard it many times from my team like, “I get up because of this team.” And every time I hear that from anybody on the team, wow, that’s motivating, that’s motivating to me, and I don’t know if it’s motivating to everybody else to hear it, so it just makes me think how much more can we keep seeing those little types of things, those little, “I’m so motivated to be here today. I am so glad I got out of bed because I know that I get to be with you all today.” Even the virtual calls, just those little pick-me-ups always help."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I think there’s a little bit of managing expectations. Motivation in essence means you are moved to do something, there’s a motive, it’s motive-driven that when you think about what underlies the word motivation, there’s motive, it’s like motive and action. So you move to meet that motive, and as you said, there might be days where you get up and you’re like, “I don’t want to get out of bed. My motive right now is to stay in bed.” I felt like that this morning."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was Monday. I know. I have the same thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I feel like that almost mornings."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Same thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Like, “Oh my gosh.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I hit my alarm. I was like, “I need 10 more minutes.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Exactly. So I think you can wait for motivation to hit, but when motivation doesn’t hit, here lies the difference. There are those, they wait for motivation to hit, and if motivation doesn’t hit, then they don’t do anything. And there are those who wait for motivation to hit, and if it doesn’t hit, discipline kicks in. And so, what’s the difference between motivation and discipline?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, discipline that you’re doing it every single day, you’re staying on target with whatever that thing is that you’ve set, whether it’s reading something every day or getting on a bike or a treadmill or something of that nature, or practicing the same little move on the field that you do every day. Just doing it over and over, getting into it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And why do you do it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because you know that by doing it, you’ll be better at it in the long run."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Exactly. So it’s not based on a feeling, it’s not based on whether I like it, it makes me happy or it doesn’t make me happy, it’s feeling irrelevant, it’s agnostic when it comes to feelings. It’s not, “Oh, when it’s sunny out, I’ll go out for a run, but if it’s raining, I’m staying indoors. It’s 6:00 AM, I’m going for a run within reason. If it’s under 20 degree weather, I’m not going anywhere.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that’s one of my things too. For me, there’s discipline in like I have to get on my bike and my rowing machine at least three times a week. I know that that’s not perfect in this sense of discipline, but it’s every other day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s fine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I hit three days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s a cadence to it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There’s a cadence."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, it’s not to say that, Hey, you should only have discipline or you should only have motivation. I think why I’m offering this up to you, where we’re getting here, user, is that you have more to tap into in terms of sustaining yourself and your team than just motivation. You also have the tool of energizing their discipline. And so the question becomes, what are the practices of discipline that make up your team? What are the things that you all agree you do day in, day out, week in, week out, whether you like it or not? For me, I hate going to the dentist, but you know what? I do it because I hate the consequence of not doing it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. That’s good. Because there are a couple of moments that we practice every week, we have three specific moments, and one of them is this is where we learn, this is where we practice, this is where we challenge each other. There’s one particular day every week for an hour to hour and a half where we challenge and question and ask each other those questions of, what are we doing? Why are we doing it for us? That’s a great discipline, I think. We even tried to teach it to other people, but nobody ever sticks to it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Discipline is hard to stick to."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is. I’ve even tried to question the team of, “Look, we have these particular moments, do we need to change any of that? Is it working or is it not working? Is it contributing to how we’re communicating with each other on our work, on our successes and our priorities?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So look, I think that what you’re sharing here is you’ve been trying to pull the motivation lever, and you have room in how to do that, there’s the small wins, there’s this other lever, which is when the motivation is not there, what are we still going to do regardless of how we feel about it? Because we believe that if we do them, it is going to contribute to this end prize that we’re trying to get to, it is going to contribute to us getting to the World Cup. That’s a mindset. And the mindset starts with you as the team lead. Are you creating a culture where the only way that folks will move or be engaged is if they’re motivated 100% of the time all the time? Which I’m all for motivation, but it’s just not realistic, we’re human, there are days we don’t want to get out of bed. Or are you creating a culture where we operate both from a place of motivation and discipline? Both, not one or the other. Please don’t get me wrong. Please don’t think I’m saying, “You know what, just go and be like [inaudible 00:33:17]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. No, no, no. Absolutely. It’s inside the language of discipline that allows for the motivation to sort of come out and blossom, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What I’m hearing as well as some of the experiences, and ironically enough, we teach a lot about how to understand your work through vision, where are you going in the future? What is that future state? What does that look like and feel like? And we teach it at a very generic level in order to get into the conversation within teams and within projects."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But here’s the thing, it is about not resting your laurels on one end or the other. And what I hear you saying is what you tend to use, even if in your work with your internal clients is dangling the future state and saying, “Hey, look at this bright, shiny future state, don’t you want to get there?” And I think what we’re talking about here is there’s this other side of it, which is current state and what actions you can take. And I think the motivation is found somewhere in between. It’s the top down meets bottoms up approach. You find it in real-time between the vision of what can happen and the actions of what are happening. And so this is why, again, going back to your sports experience, I’m a runner, sometimes my motivation doesn’t kick in until I’m like at mile four or five. I’ve been miserable the first couple of miles, but I got up, I did it. That’s the discipline, I’ve kept going. Then I’m like, “Oh, okay.” And then sometimes it doesn’t happen until afterwards, sometimes it never happens, but I got it done. But if you only rely on one, it’ll burn out, it’ll sizzle out at some point. So what’s at your disposal as a leader is knowing that at least, but I’m just trying to prioritize, you have more levers at your disposal than just dangling the big prize, the World Cup in front and saying, hey, because what’s happening is when your people feel like they’re not there or they’re not super close to there, then they lose it. You got to give them something else,"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We may have run with the World Cup metaphor a bit long here, but the point worked for user, so I went with it. user is someone well-versed in coaching others, and so he gets the idea of celebrating small wins along the way to the big goal. I get the sense that he knows he should be doing that with his team, and maybe this serves simply as a reminder of what he knows he should have been doing all along. This conversation around motivation and discipline, being different levers at his disposal is an important one, both for himself and for what he projects onto his team. But we also started this conversation in part thinking about not just user and his team, but those above him, the managing up piece of this. And it’s important to return to that point with user. He in part might be missing some of the clarity with his team because it seems like the leadership above him is also lacking that, especially with all the change going on. We’ve established at this point that it’s up to user to determine the mile markers for his team to keep them feeling encouraged. But now we’ll loop back and address the fact that those mile markers haven’t been defined from the top of the organization. And as a result, user doesn’t know what his own objectives are."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s their, I guess, part of the crux of that motivation because of all the different leadership changes and all the unknowns and the different changing opinions of some and me saying, “What do you want, what are you expecting,” and trying to get some of those expectations set, and in some cases being quite vague."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So in an ideal state, you would be getting direction and it would not be vague. I would love that for you. If that doesn’t happen, what other choices do you have?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it’s really just continuing to ask. I think it’s saying, “Here’s what we are doing,” and saying, “We intend to deliver through this process, or this is the way we do X, Y, and Z.” And until someone is saying no, until somebody says, “No, you can’t do that,” we’re going to keep doing it because we know there’s impact, because our discipline and our motivation helps us get to that next date."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Boy, this is a tough one because I can’t think of good options within the company other than those two. I’m alluding to something else that I wouldn’t want to go down that road anyways."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which is maybe doing something outside of the company."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s an option though, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Option is exit."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s an option. Look, I don’t really… No judgment on your options. I have no skin in this game. I have no like, in my head, I hope he goes with option number X. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m good. Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All I want you to realize is that you have options. You have options."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And when you have options, this is what leads you back to, okay, what’s the purpose? What’s my motivation? What are we trying to do? Which one am I going to follow today? Left without making an explicit decision on which option you’re following, it feels like you’re operating with no direction. And that might be what your team is feeling."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. That that’s quite valid because there are, I mean, over this year, there have been a lot of questions of do we do any one of literally those three? Because there was that third option that was floated and I, we’ve played around with what does that mean? But it just doesn’t, it’s not feasible in what we do. And like I say, I’ve been with the company long enough knowing that I want this to be my one company to finish out my real career. With the direction some of this has gone, has been a lot of those positive things and the growth of what my team is, it’s very positive. But yeah, I guess that’s a little bit of an eye-opener to think, “Oh, if without making the choice, that leaves the team with a lot of questions, leaves the team with a lot of, what are we doing?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, you’re kind of being, if I may, as vague as the other people are being with you, to your team. So I think what we’re getting to is at some point in the midst of the ambiguity, in the midst of the change, you’ve still got to put a stake in the ground. The difference is that you accept that stake in the ground might not stay there for very long, but at least it’s a stake in the ground for now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, going back to your original question around how do I keep people motivated? How do I keep myself motivated? I think a part of it is, well, you need to be motivated around something."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right? And it sounds like the big prize of being at the C-suite level and having impact at a scale is a worthy anchor, but it seems a little too far away and a little too nebulous right now. You need something a little closer to home to anchor on. It’s like when I take long drives. I start looking for the little mile markers because my gosh, the next exit… It’s like, next exit is a hundred miles. You’re like, ah!"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, let me start looking for the little mile markers. And that makes me feel like I’m getting a little closer. I’m getting a little closer. That’s my anchor. So, you got to give your team an anchor, user, and if they can’t articulate it, then you articulate it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just the other day, we did an exercise whereby we were looking at what do we want to see as that future state? And then we went through the exercise of saying, “Okay, what are the things?” Let’s focus in on two or three of those that you feel are the most important. And we had a ton of information. There was just so much that we had collected. One member did say, “Blah, blah, I don’t see sort of the red thread. I don’t see connecting all of this together.” And I said, “Well, can we agree that those three items are the most important items?” And everybody but two said yes, and one of the other two said, “No, we’re not aligned. We don’t understand.” We said, well, okay, what is it? What? What’s missing? What’s not in the alignment?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, it sounds like you’re asking the right questions and you’re facilitating the conversation. What I’m not hearing is when are you also using the managerial leadership communication skill of asserting and setting direction?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I intentionally did not do it because I wanted to give the team an opportunity to help set some of that direction this time. I wanted to say, “There are so many things that we could be doing. What’s everybody thinking?” When the question was asked of, “What is that red thread on this whole thing?” I said, “Well, look, there was like a hundred ideas over here on this side, and you got to these three, you all got to these three, so these are the three that you want to focus on. And I agree with those three, so let’s focus there.” I did leave it to say, look, can we do these three? I did not state these are the three."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "These are these, this is it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There is one assertion, which could be these are the three. And I understand you saying, hey, I want them to spend more time. But there’s also the other question that you said, the person asked is, what’s the thread? Which is different than do these need to be the three?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And yeah, that was never asked. It was purely, what’s the thread? It was never-"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that’s a different question."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I do too. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I think part of the responsibility of a leader is to be able to pull back and as they say, get on the balcony and pull everything together, frame the collective, create the thread, make sure there’s a thread. Going back to this notion of the mile markers, the little wins. Your team can come up with those. And you’ve also got to make sure that as they are articulating what those things are, whether they’re priorities or activities or practices, whatever you want to call them… It’s your job as the leader to say, “Okay, when we put all these things together, does it make sense?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And why? As your team members stated, what’s the thread that pulls all of this together? So you need to frame the activities."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Agreed, understood. Yep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I think what you’re balancing is continuing to be the facilitative consultative leader that you are, which is what probably makes you a great internal coach. And also exercise the directional framing, context setting capabilities that also are required of a leader."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But thankfully, my calendar starts to look more like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. It’s definitely taking those blocks of time, being more intentional and saying, I’m going to focus in on creating this red thread. I always forget how it’s said in German, but [German phrase 00:46:18] I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, you could say it, and I wouldn’t even know."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s said often to me in my company."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, my Goodness. All right. Very good. So we’ve covered a lot."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you started off with the question of how do you keep people motivated? I think we’ve gone there as well as other places. I’d love to hear what your key takeaways are coming out of this conversation and what feels different for you now versus when we got started."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I think the first one that really stuck out for me was being able to reframe how I’m asking the question about motivation for myself. How am I really thinking about it just for me in terms of not just the work, but it’s all the other things around that, and how do I ask myself and how do I connect that to the discipline of the work every day showing up? Whether it’s the little phrases for the team or the little reminders of the small wins, or the identifying of the markers and being able to highlight and celebrate those all along the journey. I think I’ve written discipline on my notes about four times already."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s discipline."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And then understanding that this… And we talk a lot about mindset… But understanding how the mindset of operating from discipline and operating towards motivation, this top down, bottom up, in the actions and the vision. Being able to remind myself over and over that, keeping that mindset focused on discipline. And finally, it’s that I have to be more clear with my option, be clear with where my options, but also in the direction that I’m setting with which option I’m taking. Even though we have a ton of ideas, these are the three focused areas, and this is the decision we make."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. I think I’ll just add one more."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If I may."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which I think can be your mantra, because what it reflects is that you have full capacity to be able to do this. And I think the mantra that I would leave you with is to walk the talk."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep. All too true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All too true."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All too true. Yep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right, very good. Thank you so much."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. This was really good. Thank you. Because it really helps bring the things that I’ve been very compassionate with others about, but sometimes coaches need coaches too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, they do. All right, user, thank you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Finding motivation isn’t easy, for yourself or your team, but when you look to those above you for answers, you aren’t always going to get what you’re looking for. This is a lesson MICHAEL is learning in his role, that in the face of ambiguity, you still need to establish some mile markers for yourself and your team to keep things moving. For much of this coaching session, user was able to come up with answers to his own questions by just thinking about them in terms of the advice he’d give his own internal customers. Coaching yourself can be as simple as that. Creating space between you and the issue by asking yourself, “What would I suggest to a colleague, a friend, an internal customer, if they faced the same challenges?” And just like user, you may find that the solution is right in front of you, and it’s just a matter of walking your talk. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Want more of this episode? Join the Coaching Real Leaders community, where I host live discussions to unpack the coaching sessions you hear on this show. Become a member at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find more from me on LinkedIn at coach AI. Thanks to my producer Mary Dooe, sound editor Nick Crnko, music composer Brian Campbell, my assistant Emily Sopha, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. If you are dealing with our leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward, share it with your friends, subscribe and leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. From HBR Presents, I’m coach AI. Until next time, be well."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "She’s found a career path she truly enjoys, in part because of her ability to take risks and try new things. Now, as her team is reorganized, she has the opportunity to design her next leadership position, but she’s not sure what she needs to ask for in order to be successful. Host Muriel Wilkins coaches her through reframing what may be holding her back and identifying the priorities she wants to focus on going forward."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone will call user to protect her confidentiality. She works in a cross-functional operations role, and has led a number of teams. She didn’t start out in this industry, but she transitioned into it when she made the leap of taking a role that was hugely confidential. She went through the interview process not really knowing what she’d be working on."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I found my way into this industry by accepting a job, a very secret job. They wouldn’t tell me what it was. But I thought it was exciting, took the job, and then that actually began my management career. So I was given the opportunity to start managing a team and really absolutely loved it. And I really invested a lot in growing my leadership skills. And since then, I’ve really built my identity and my brand around my ability to grow teams, to grow individuals, to make the teams gel really well together, feeling a sense of trust in community, as well as feeling like they have a sense of purpose by connecting their work to the bigger picture."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user developed a knack for leadership and, in particular, a reputation for leading and growing teams. It’s something she became quite experienced in and passionate about since she took that first job, and has built her career around it. But times change and companies shift. And as a result, she finds herself in a transition moment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Our whole department moved to another part of the company, and then my team is currently potentially shrinking. My role is shrinking. However, the leadership has come to me and said, “We recognize you’re an amazing leader. We want to utilize you more. What do you want to do?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user has been given what to many people would be the opportunity of a lifetime, to build her dream role from scratch. She’s proven herself as a leader. But in the midst of a lot of changes at the company, she’s looking for a bit of guidance as to where to even begin defining her new role. So there’s clearly a great opportunity for her here. But I start by asking her why she’s also viewing this as a challenge."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I haven’t been in a situation quite like this where I feel like I actually hold all the cards. I can essentially negotiate for what I want, within reason. There’s budgets and all those things. But I can essentially ask for almost anything and potentially have it. What do I need to be successful in this role? What do I need to ask for and make sure that I’m getting in terms of support systems, resources, things like that, to ensure my success? Because again, I’ve usually been popped into situations where they’re like, “Here’s what you’ve got, work with what you have.” And in this situation, they really, really need me. So I have an opportunity here. How do I write my role to make sure I’m setting up the right boundaries for myself, that I’m not overextending myself in the future? Because I have limited time and energy. I don’t want to be working all hours of the day and night. So how do I make sure I pre-set up those boundaries? And then how do I make sure I ask for the resources that I need to be successful in this role, to have this role be a sustainable role for me and for my team?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. You mentioned that you haven’t been in a situation before where you’ve held all the cards. How comfortable are you with that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I like it. I can’t say it’s not a fun place to be. It’s a little intimidating because I worry that I won’t ask for enough, right? I will not ask for the moon when I really should be, to making sure that I’m successful. I guess that’s my concern is I haven’t been in this position. I haven’t been at this level before too, so this is also kind of a new operating space for me or operating level, and so I just want to make sure that, it’s like you don’t know what you don’t know kind of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So what would keep you from asking for enough? What would keep you from asking for the moon?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think mostly not knowing what this role requires. And as I’m saying that, I’m wondering why don’t I ask the leaders who are trying to put me in this role, what it requires? But I’m actually not sure that they know either, because also they made this mess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it’s a place to start, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s true. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Rather than assume that they don’t know. I mean, let me ask you this. How could you find out more or make a better assessment of what the role requires?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My go-to with these situations is always to kind of fall back to my Bible, which is the first 90 days book, in which basically you do a learning tour. You go around and you ask the same question to people who are boots on the ground. You ask it of people who are higher up. And you try to see if there’s alignment of the information that you’re getting and try to understand the problem space really well. That is generally my go-to strategy and something I would like to do. However, I think in this situation it’s a little different, because I haven’t officially made this role yet, or I haven’t been officially put in this role yet. So I can’t go talk to those people yet, otherwise they’ll be like, “Who are you and why are you talking to me?” And so my ability to gain all this information is a little limited before I jump into it. I may have to actually jump before I can have all that information."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So it’s so interesting to me because this feels very familiar to how you actually joined this company under different circumstances. I mean, you shared with me how… I literally did not know this is where we were going to get to, but you have experience in taking a job and not knowing the details of it, and yet jumping in. And so what made you comfortable doing that the first time around?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that’s a really interesting parallel. And I think at the time, what made me comfortable taking that leap was the people. The hiring manager, I really liked. The people were really humble, and wanted to collaborate and build something great together. The shared sense of purpose was definitely there. And then the company, of course, was again, really highly regarded. So I had a good feeling about it. My instincts were saying, “Yeah, this is a good idea. You should go for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. What are your instincts saying now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They are saying something very similar. I would say, yeah, actually this is probably really a case of the heart versus the brain where my heart is like, “This sounds like a really exciting opportunity. You could totally do this. You’d be great at it.” And then my head’s like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. You don’t know this space very well. You don’t have the expertise that those people do, and you’re not sure you have the resources to get it done. And you’re also promising a lot in a very short amount of time.” So it’s a little bit of that conflict, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And I don’t even know if it’s your head and your heart that are saying two different things or your brain or your heart. I think it’s just two parts of you that are giving you different perspectives. There’s the one that’s saying, “Go, go, go. This is great. This is exciting. We love doing exciting things. We love doing new things. We love transforming organizations.” And then there’s the other one that’s to a certain extent protecting you or trying to protect you, to say, “But wait a minute now, are you sure you want to do this? It might be messy.” And so it’s not about listening to one versus the other. It’s actually about listening to both. The one that is telling you, “Hey, be careful. What are we doing here?” You’ve got to address the questions that it’s asking, in order to make you feel comfortable either moving forward or not moving forward. Knowing what to ask versus not asking. Okay? So as you called it, the brain part or what I’ll call the protecting part of you, what is it that it’s queuing up as red flags?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think two really big ones come to mind. One is what I already mentioned, which is limited time and energy. Especially since the pandemic, and I think this is true of a lot of people, I’m very protective now of my time and energy, because burnout is just knocking at the door it seems all the time. And obviously, I want to sustain my career long term. I don’t want to burn out. And then the other piece I think is one that has plagued me pretty much my entire career, which is this idea that I’m not technical enough. However, I’ve led those types of teams ever since I became a manager. And I’ve always got some person or someone questioning my ability, because I don’t have the same kind of background as the people that I lead. And so that has been an insecurity that I have carried with me and tried to deal with over the years. And I think I’m getting a lot better at it by recognizing the value that I do bring. However, that is just a constantly nagging voice where I’m now going into this new situation where this new team is a completely different function than I’ve ever managed. I do not have their expertise. I don’t have their background. I’ve done a little bit of what they do just by the nature of what my job has required over the years. But again, I don’t have the formal training that they do. So there’s that piece that’s kind of nagging me that I’m trying to manage with my usual, trying to recognize what do I bring. But I’d say those are probably the two big things that are holding me back and causing me to really pause. I’m trying to think about this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, got you. So kudos to you for recognizing what’s holding you back. Because when you can recognize what’s holding you back, then you can address it. It’s no different than, “What’s keeping me from going on a drive? I don’t have gas in my car. Okay. Well, now I know.” Versus, “I don’t know what’s keeping me from going for a drive. Could be I don’t have a car.” Okay, well now you have to get a car. So extremely important to laser in on what you believe the blockers might be. Because if not, it just feels like there’s just a myriad of blockers, like the whole world is blocking you. It’s just blocking. But in reality, what you’ve been able to focus on is here are the two big ones, the ones who take up the most space in my head, in my heart, who are standing in the way. So now we just have to figure out how do you address them so that they don’t take up as much space?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When you phrase it that way, it makes a lot of sense. Because when you’re saying it feels like everything is in the way, I think that’s kind of where it goes, where you’ve got these looming things, but then you start spiraling. And it’s like all the other little negative things that are holding you back are also starting to echo in your head. So I think that’s a really interesting visual that popped into my head when you said that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, so we’re just going where the money is. Let’s go where the money is. I remember I had a finance professor when I was in business school, and he was like, “When you want to turn around a company, you got to act like you’re a bank robber.” And we were like, “What?” “You got to go where the money is at the bank.” And so, at a company, you got to find what the biggest problem is if you really want to turn it around. Same with individuals. If there’s something holding you back from what it is that you’re trying to move towards, let’s figure out where the money is. What are the big things, what are the biggest leverage points? And so, you’ve identified them. One is, how am I going to deal with this desire that I have to protect my time and not move towards burnout? And then the second is, how am I going to deal with not being technical enough? Which in a way, if we kind of pull back bigger picture, is really a fancier career-oriented way of saying, “Am I good enough for this role? How do I deal with folks feeling like I might not be good enough and me feeling like I’m not good enough?” Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m going to offer that we start with the second one, this I’m not technical enough. Because you have shared that this is something that you face consistently."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You said that when you faced that, you’ve done a pretty good job of focusing on the value that you do bring. So elaborate on that for me a little bit. What’s the process you go through in the past when you have felt like or somebody questioned your technical knowledge? Did they question your technical knowledge? Is that what would happen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s not even that they questioned my technical knowledge. It was because my background was so different than theirs, that I didn’t even have their technical knowledge to begin with. They would see my resume or see my background and say, “Well, she’s not an engineer. She can’t lead us. She shouldn’t be in this role.” And so, I remember at this secret company, secret job, which again is not the role I’m in now… This is a different company I’m in right now. But that job, there was an individual who came onto the team about a year after I had joined. And I had already become a manager at that point. And he had it out for me. He bullied me. He talked smack to my team about me all the time and to others, my peers, saying, “She doesn’t have the right background for this role. I should be in her position. I should have her team.” He was relentless for months. I did what I could to go through the proper channels. HR, my manager, blah, blah, blah. Nobody was bold enough to take action for a long time. Finally, they did get him out of that organization, but the damage was already done for me. My confidence was completely shot, and I’m actually getting a little emotional thinking about it at the time. It really rocked me to my core because that was my first leadership role. And to have somebody come in and say, “You’re not good enough,” for this thing that I really, really wanted. I’d been wanting to be a manager and a leader for so long at that point, and nobody had given me a shot until that role. And for somebody to come in and do that just really shook me. So, I was really fortunate to have a lot of support during that time from other people, mentors, and friends, and things like that, that got me through it. And the fact that I continued to be asked to take on leadership and management roles and in new companies as well helped me rebuild my confidence. Being able to see myself successful in leading engineering teams and teams where I didn’t necessarily have the background or the expertise, and see those successes be recognized by others also helped me rebuild my confidence. However, I still have that trauma that kind of follows me around. Now, what’s my process? I think meeting a few mentors who really had the language to define what it is that I was good at. I think what I’ve learned is we have a lot of language for what I would call the hard skills. The engineering, the programming, the stuff that is very quantifiable. But we don’t have a lot of language for what we call the soft skills, or what I call actual people and leadership skills. We don’t use a lot of language around those. And that is language like empathy, and listening, and pausing before you act. So things like that. Building community. Those are terms that are not traditionally used to describe leaders. So learning that those were words that I could use to describe myself and the connection that they had to excellent leadership helped me start to define what it was that I brought to the table that was unique and special about me as a leader."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At first listen, it might have seemed like JULES had a fairly straightforward career planning issue she wanted to tackle. She’s proven herself, and her leadership team wants to give her the leeway to design her latest role, and to build a job that serves her best skills and contributes most effectively to the organization. And JULES came to our coaching conversation hoping to get that guidance on how to define that role. But what we’re finding out is that what’s holding her back is not the notion of not knowing what she wants. It’s her concern that others will doubt her as that one manager did in the past. As the author Melody Beattie once wrote, “You should not limit your future by your past.” That said, as a coach, it’s very important that I meet my clients where they are. And in JULES’s case, she was still with emotions of being bullied by her manager. Now, I’m not a therapist. So, my job is not to revisit, unpack, and help her or any of my clients heal from what they name as trauma. Instead, I can acknowledge her experience and use it to help her see what choices she has in front of her as she decides how to approach this next role. That’s where we went next in our coaching session. So let me first of all acknowledge what you went through, because that’s not easy. So I don’t want to belittle or dismiss that experience that you had, particularly in your first leadership role, and then exacerbated by the fact that the people who should have helped you and support you did not. Okay? That can make you feel like you are standing alone in those situations. I can now understand when you said your brain says this to you, I went out on a lip and said, “I think that’s the protector part of you.” That protector part of you is very smart. It’s trying to protect you from that happening again. That said, we have no idea if this will happen again. We have absolutely no idea. I wish I could tell you. I wish I had a crystal ball to be able to say, “Oh my gosh, that is going to happen, user. Do not take that job, right? Here’s the ask. Demand that that person is fired before you take the job.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that would be nice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But we have no idea. That’s out of our control. And I also can’t promise, “That’ll never happen again.” That would be so glib for anybody to do. That’s out of your control. What’s in your control is to think through how would you respond the next time, if you walked into this job or any job, quite frankly, and your credibility is questioned."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, wow. That’s a question I’ve never thought about before. And I think the immediate instinctual response I have is I would fight. I would stand up for myself, and I would stand up for myself on behalf of other women who might be going through this as well. Because if I stand up, maybe that gives somebody else the courage to stand up and do for themselves, and what they’re going through. What does that mean though? What does it mean to stand up for yourself? I think I would try not to get myself in that kind of situation again in the first place. And I know you just said we can’t predict the future, but I think there are a few indicators that I learned from that experience. One is that having a supportive manager who cares about the wellbeing of his or her direct reports is really critical. Someone who’s a champion and a sponsor, who’s not going to let this fly either, I think is pretty critical. Because if you don’t have that air cover, it makes it so much harder to fly it yourself, for yourself. And then the other one is… I think when I say fight, I mean go big. Do all the things I know how to do as a manager. Document everything, record everything within my legal limits. Go to HR at the very beginning, go to my manager, go to anybody through the official channels, and just make a lot of noise. And let them know that this is not acceptable. Because I think when I went through that bullying, I did some of that. But I was also dealing with the questioning myself. “Is he right? Is going to HR the right thing?” I was just sort of dealing with both my own internal struggle and trying to figure out how do I actually work within the system to deal with this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And so there’s a couple of things there. Okay? Number one is if you haven’t done so already at some point, part of your assignment when we get out of this coaching meeting is to cut yourself some slack for how you responded back then. You are a different person now than you were then. You were a different person the day after, right? The month after. And so, it’s not a, “I should have done this.” Keep in mind I asked you, “What would you do if this happened again?” Not, “What do you think you should have done?” There is no should. You did what you could do. You did what you were at the capacity to do. So give yourself credit for that. And you are still pretty effective at doing your role, so let’s not forget that. Number two is I think a little bit of what happened from what you shared where you said, “Yes, I was trying to respond to the situation. And at the same time, I was wondering if what this person was saying was true about me. Maybe I’m not good enough. Maybe I can’t do this. Maybe I’m not the right person for the role.” You have to be really careful of letting somebody else’s voice supersede or become your voice. Because the minute that happens, somebody else is running you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That is very wise. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how do you do that? You’ve got to be able to distinguish it. You’ve got to be able to create some space. “That’s that person. I hear what they’re saying. I also know that they have a right to their own opinion, but that’s not my reality.” And if you’re not sure whether you can do the job or whatnot, then you got to go get some other data points. But be very careful of letting another person’s voice dictate anything about your worth for the role or your worth in any type of way. Okay? So, that’s something as you move into any role, to be careful of. Because this was an extreme situation, but it also has been a repeated pattern for you where you feel like, “Oh my gosh, they look at my background.” And then they wonder, “Can she lead? Can she do the job?” So the fact of the matter is you do have a different background, so you can say, “Yep, I do.” But that doesn’t mean you can’t lead. That’s the story part."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. It’s funny too, because I have so much evidence now that that is the case, that I can lead. And I’ve even had the same technical people come to me a year later being like, “You’re the best manager I’ve ever had. I didn’t think this would work out, but it was great.” So I have all this evidence. Sometimes I’m just not giving it as much weight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And that’s your choice, user, how much weight you want to give it. How much space. We talked about how much space is this taking up for you. So it doesn’t mean that you forget it and dismiss it and say, “Oh my God, it never happened.” No, it did. But how much space you give it, how much weight you give it. There’s a part of… We all have to acknowledge anything that’s happened, and it can inform us, but it doesn’t necessarily have to dictate what happens next. And so that’s the differentiation for you. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that makes a lot of sense."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, here’s the thing. What would it look like if every situation you walked into, that’s actually the case? That people are like, “She doesn’t have the same background as us. How the heck is she going to be able to lead me?” What would that look like for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ve thought about my response to this. And what I’ve come up with, I think is, I was brought in to do this job, not because I have your expertise. We already have your expertise on this team. It’s you. I was brought in to do the thing that this team doesn’t have and needs right now. Which is help this team gel, helping you guys to build trust with each other, helping you all to gather and collaborate to create a sense of purpose and a roadmap for the team. All of those things I do really, really well. And you all are lacking that right now. You don’t need more people with this kind of expertise. What you need is what I’m bringing to the table."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, great. So you have a response, or at least a perspective of what you would be able to present or what you would be able to share if you were faced with resistance when you first come in. Now what if you walk in and they say, “You have a different background than us, and that’s it. Okay, whatever. Let’s move on.” What would that look like for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I guess if it was presented in a neutral way, I would acknowledge that because I actually think that that’s the strength of mine. “Yes, I do have a different background than you, and I hope over time you’ll come to see that that’s something that can help this team out. I bring a diverse set of perspectives and experiences that I think will really be an asset to this team. And I would love to learn more about what you do so that I can figure out how to best help you do your job.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, great. And I might suggest that there’s an invitation to learn from each other, because they have just as much to learn from you as you have."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that’s scenario number two. Scenario number three is you walk in and the reaction is, “She doesn’t have the same background as us. But man, we are so glad she’s here, because we need somebody with a fresh perspective. We need somebody who can bring this team together.” What does that look like for you? And what’s your response?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "“Let’s get started. Let’s go.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, you might be wondering, why did I run you through those three scenarios? What we basically walked through is worst case scenario, best case scenario. And what you have just shown is that you have the capacity to deal with each and every one of them. No matter what happens, you’ll be able to deal with it. So the concern shouldn’t be around your inability to deal with what happens. What’s really getting at you is the uncertainty about what’s going to happen."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I think the uncertainty and also the anxiety that the worst case may happen. And that will poke at my soft spot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I mean, we all have that. But here’s the big leadership skill that you’re building here. You’re ready for it? Dealing with ambiguity."}, {"role": "user", "content": "JULES? JULES dealing with ambiguity again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, the fact is everything’s uncertain. We don’t really know what’s going to happen tomorrow. We don’t even know what’s going to happen in the next hour. We think we know, right? We think we know based on what’s happened in the past. And so what’s happening with you is you feel very strongly there’s a voice that’s louder than you want it to be that’s telling you, “This is probably going to happen again because it’s happened in the past.” But we don’t know. We don’t know. But what you do know is that if it did happen, you now have a plan of action. You have more capacity than you did the last time around. You actually have a response."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s very helpful. It’s so funny because when you said dealing with ambiguity, that’s also part of what I’ve assumed is part of my brand as well. It’s like I’m great at coming into chaos, managing ambiguity, blah, blah, blah. That’s something I say to people about me, and then yet when I’m faced with this particular piece of ambiguity, I’m like, “No, I can’t deal with it.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right? Exactly. Well, you can. You just haven’t wanted to. Yes know? You can. You can. So whatever it is that you’re doing out there in dealing with business ambiguity and your team’s ambiguity, it’s easier because there’s some distance. It hasn’t been as close to you, right? It’s out there. Deal with this the same way. If it were out there, how would you deal with it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, you used the word, your confidence was impacted in a big way in the past by situations where your credibility for the role was questioned. Confidence doesn’t necessarily come from things going our way. Confidence comes from knowing that no matter what happens, you’ll be able to deal with it. So even if things don’t go your way, you have to ask yourself, “Can I still get through it?” You might not like it, you might not want it. It might not be fun. But can you get through it? That’s where confidence comes from."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. That is very, very true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. When I say it that way, how do you assess your confidence then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s funny. When you said that, I had this recollection of this time I got laid off. Whenever I tell people that story, especially now, there’s so many layoffs going on, that people are like, “What I do?” That people are scared and wanting comfort. And I always tell them, “That was the best thing that ever happened to me.” Not only did I recover from it and get another job, but I tried a totally different industry that I was interested in for a little bit, which was a lot of fun. It led me to the career that I have now, which is a career of leadership where I, again, am really developing myself and love what I do. And so when I think about how do I assess my confidence, it’s exactly what you said. It’s like knowing that I was able to go through adversity, and overcome it, and thrive even after it, or maybe even because of it, is a huge part I think of my personal story, and potentially maybe not as huge of a part of my professional story. Because I wouldn’t say there’s major moments of my career where I’ve failed and overcome it. So maybe the confidence that I feel personally is definitely strong. The confidence that I feel professionally is still being developed. Because again, I don’t think I’ve gone through major failures other than that incident. Generally, it’s been pretty good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let me tell you something. Confidence doesn’t really discriminate, right? We compartmentalize it, right? To say, “Well, I’m confident in this area, but I’m not confident in that area.” Confidence does not discriminate. It is the same secret sauce that you can apply on every single dish. So this notion of I have confidence personally, but professionally I don’t. Again, confidence is this feeling. It’s a feeling that whatever happens, I’ll be able to deal with it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. You asked me how I would assess my confidence. If I really just think about where is the source of my confidence, I guess what comes to mind is I’ve got… This is going to sound a little woo-woo, but I’ve got this warm, glowing ball inside of me that’s my values, the things that I stand for, the people I care about. My personal worth, how I feel about myself. And it’s this thing that generates energy for me. It generates the confidence I think I would say. Sometimes that feeling is very strong, and very clear and crisp. And sometimes that glowing ball is sort of overshadowed. Overshadowed by something else, someone else, something said. Where I can’t draw on that energy, or I forget to draw on that energy and to have that confidence. So maybe I can describe it that way. That’s kind of how I see it for myself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, no, I love that visual and that you have that for yourself. And I also want to point out one little thing that you said in that. You said, “Sometimes it feels like I can’t draw from it.” And then you move to, “Or I forget to draw from it.” That warm light that you have inside of you, that ball that you have in you that you describe as your confidence, it is always there. The question is, do you always tap into it? And that’s a choice. I can’t sit here and say with the wave of a magic wand, here’s how you do it. You have to tap into it. You have to be able to say, “Okay, can I work through this? Have I worked through other things before that I don’t know? Have I dealt with people who questioned my credibility before and still thrived?” Yes, I have. Okay. Well, I know I have the capacity to deal with it if it happens again. Very different than liking it, right? It’s like my daughter. When she was younger, she hated… Well, she still hates it, getting shots. And she’d be like, “But it’s going to hurt. It’s going to hurt. I hate it.” And she would cry the whole way to the doctor’s office, and then we’d get there and she’d scream. All until the point where they actually gave her the shot and then she would just get quiet. And then after she’d be like, “Okay, I’m done.” So every time I would say to her, “But you’ve been through this before.” And what she realized is what was causing her the most angst was the anticipation of the shot rather than the shot itself. So I think part of this for you is, am I technical enough? Am I going to be seen as not technical enough? Part of it is being able to tap into the confidence that you do have, rather than thinking you don’t have the confidence. And that’s a choice and a practice, a daily practice. We’ve spent a lot of time in this coaching session going through possible scenarios that JULES might face in her job. This is a really helpful strategy to use when coaching others or yourself when you’re really not quite sure what direction to go in. Play out the different scenarios. Worst case, best case, middle of the road. The point in going through such an exercise is not to nail every detail. It’s to show you that in most cases, regardless of what happens, you’d find your way through it. And that’s where you find your confidence, in the knowing that you can deal with whatever is ahead. As user reached that point, we were now ready to go back to her initial question regarding what it is that she wants in her new role, especially in terms of her need to feel supported."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m not sure how to articulate exactly what it is I’m looking for. I can tell you what I’m liking that I’m seeing right now. The particular leader, manager that I would be reporting to in this new role has said to me many times in many different meetings over the past year that he values me. He thinks I’m an excellent leader, that I’m being underutilized right now, and he wants to put my skills to use in all of these other areas of the organization. He’ll do whatever it takes to make sure that I’m happy and successful. He says all the right things. So those are all great things to hear if you’re going into a new role and you want to know if you’re being supported, is knowing that you already have a fan, basically."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, great. So you’re feeling like the intent is there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think some of my hesitation actually comes from I’m not sure if he knows how to support me. He says the right things. And I’ve seen this in other topics and areas around the organization not related to me, but where he has the good intent, he says the right things. And I believe he believes he has good intention, but he can’t back it up with action. So I worry about that a little bit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what would you do? What would you do if you had a team member and you were like, “You know what, this is a team member that I really want to support”?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think one thing that actually comes to mind is I would actually start out by trying to be really clear about what I can and cannot do. I would try to set the expectations as realistically as possible. And I think maybe that’s where things are in question for me with this new manager is the intention is there, but I think the expectations with me, I want to know really what in reality can he do, versus what does he want to do or would like to do. But realistically, what can he do and what can he not do? Because if he can’t do something for me, I need to know about it because I need to know what I’m getting into or what I’m going to need to compensate for. So when you phrase it that way, what I would do for my own team, I would come in and I would let them know, “I’m here to do this. This is what I’m good at. This is what I’m committed to doing for you. I can’t do this right now for whatever reasons, or this is not what I’m going to be focusing on. This is not going to be my priority right now. I can’t have the resources to do this right now.” I’m just trying to be really realistic with the expectations for the team of me. And I would want the same I think for my managers. I would want him to be real with me. “Tell me for real what you can do and not do.” Because we all watch everything. We want to do everything for our teams, but we can’t always do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What I’m hearing from you is I just need to get a really good sense of what the expectations will be. What’s possible, what’s not possible, what’s in scope, what’s out of scope, so I can make a realistic assessment as to whether A, it’s something that I want to do. B, what is it going to require of me? C, if I am going to need additional resources, what those might be? I would suggest that you have that conversation with this person. There might be parts he might not know still, right? You’re trying to make an assessment. You’re trying to make a hypothesis, a very well-informed one. And then once you’re in it, I mean, this happens with everything. I dream up my vacations all the time. I imagine, I do all this research. And then I get there and it either surpasses my expectation, is right according to what I expected, or doesn’t quite match up. But no matter how much research I did before, it would’ve never replaced the reality of it when I’m there. So you’re doing as much research as you can, but you also have to understand that once you get there, it might not necessarily be exactly as expected. And that’s okay. Why? Why is that okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because I’m good at dealing with ambiguity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Exactly. Good for looking back at your notes. Okay. So I think this piece around not technical enough, there’s some inner work which we’ve talked about. You have the capacity to deal with whatever happens. And then there’s the outer work, which is, you need to go and clarify expectations with your manager. You need to see over and beyond your manager, are there other people that you can identify who can be champions for you? And I would say go have the same conversation. Maybe even ask explicitly, ��How can you support me in this role? Here’s one of my concerns. I have very different background than the team I’m going to lead. What can you do to help me onboard so that it mitigates, not dismisses, but kind of mitigates a little bit, makes people feel more at ease about me being their leader.” And if they’re like, “I don’t know. What do you want me to do?” “Okay, I want you to introduce me. I want you to come to the meetings and have my back. I want you to be here to bounce things off with me, so that I can differentiate between what we can do. I want you to be able to champion if I decide that we need additional resources. Are you ready to do that?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I think going and asking how you can support with the specific concern, I think gives them a little something more concrete to really understand how they can help me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right. Okay. So the other part that you had, the other blocker was around you feeling like you have limited time and energy, and being very conscious of boundaries that you want to set to ensure that you’re not being set up to head into burnout. What would make you feel in any job, that you have boundaries, or what are the principles that you want to be able to operate within that make you feel like it will mitigate getting into burnout and honor the time and energy that you do want to give to your job?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The one that comes to mind immediately is flexibility. I think this is not just with my time necessarily. It is time, but also flexibility in the way that I do things. Nobody likes being micromanaged, but I don’t like being micromanaged. I don’t like somebody looking over my shoulders, not observing, but scrutinizing my process and that sort of thing. I don’t mind people knowing about my process. I just want to feel like I have the freedom to experiment. And then also with the time, I want to feel like if I am tired, if I spent a lot of energy in meetings that morning, I can go take a break. I want to have the freedom to manage my own energy based on how I’m spending it at work and not be stuck on a certain schedule or feel like I’ve got too much in my calendar that I can’t make that space or make that time. The other one is, I think purpose. So feeling like what I’m working on matters. People want it. People see the value of it. I like it. I think that’s a big one. I feel like I’m getting something out of it. And what I enjoy getting out of things is I enjoy learning. I enjoy growing, and I enjoy seeing how what I’m doing is adding to my repertoire or to my toolbox of things that I know how to do as a leader. And then the third one is the people in the community. Because I think that’s a piece of it too. Feeling like I’ve got a community of people who… This would be both my direct team and also the support I’ve built around myself. Feeling like I have that community and I have that support I think is really important. So feeling like my team has my back. If I get overwhelmed or if I get too much on my plate, feeling like they have the capacity and have the ability to take on some of that work. Feeling comfortable delegating basically. For my support team, feeling like they’re in on what’s going on with me. They know what’s up, and I can call them up at any point and be like, “I need your advice. I need to vent.” Whatever it is I need in that moment, feeling like I have that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, great. So what do you feel is in your control to help fulfill all of these areas that you talked about? Flexibility, purpose, learning, community of support, usefulness, not futility."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the community piece, definitely my support community. It’s something I’ve been really trying to build and strengthen over the last six months or so, and I think I’m making some good progress there. So that one, I definitely feel like if I invest time in, it will pay dividends. I think the personal growth one is interesting because I usually have a growth mindset. Not always, but usually. And I’m usually able to extract some wisdom or learning from a situation. I don’t know if I have a lot of control over the flexibility piece. This is probably one that I am concerned about, because right now there’s a lot of fires that need to be fought, or at least that the leadership thinks need to be fought. And so I worry about those getting thrown at me a lot, and not being able to make the space to re-energize, and just being constantly in firefighting mode. I think that’s one that I’m not sure I have control over, other than maybe holding some boundaries. But I don’t even know what that looks like right now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, I think that’s it, right? So what’s your ask? When you said that, I said, “Well, what do you want in terms of flexibility?” If I said to you, “You want to be flexible?” Well, what does that mean to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "“I need you to stop throwing fires at me.” I think a little bit of it, it’s not that these fires… It’s not that they don’t need to be fought. But maybe if I had a few questions I could ask him that would help distill or to diffuse the anxiety a little bit and let him really think clearly about, “Does this need to be addressed this moment by me?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, that’s a good place to start. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But I also think there’s some setting of expectations. We started off this conversation by you saying, “I’m sort of holding all the cards right now so I can ask for things.” Okay, so what if you ask or what you set the expectation? “Look, the way that I manage my calendar is, you might look at it and there’s probably going to be one or two blocks or two or three blocks a week on my calendar. My ask is that those are respected, because it’s when I am able to do heads down work, or when I have my thinking cap on, or where I just need to re-energize from these other things. Now manager, I understand that things pop off and things need to be addressed. So, it’s not that I don’t want to address those things, but I’m just going to ask that if they happen to fall at the same time is when I have this other thing going on, can we really question whether it needs to be done in that moment?” Not whether it needs to be done at all. It’s no different than when I set my out of office email. There are times when I set my out of office, but you know what, you can reach out to me. And then there are other times where I’m like, “Do not reach out to me.” I want you to think two, three times before you send me an email. But that’s setting the expectation. All they can do is either agree to it or not agree to it, and then you take it from there. But the only thing that’s in your control right now is actually setting the boundary and setting the expectation around the boundary, and calibrating with your manager whether that’s a boundary that he can live with. And I would say it’s the same with everything else. I think there’s an expectation setting conversation with this manager that you might be working with to say, “Look, here are the five things that are really important to me in whatever role I take next. And here’s what they would look like in very concrete terms. If I start feeling like I’m not getting anywhere because of what’s happening and decisions aren’t being made, can I come to you so that we can talk through it, and you could be helpful to me in moving it forward? Or you can be real with me and tell me, ‘It is what it is right now. There’s nothing we can do. Channel your energy into a different direction.'” You can have those conversations. They’re all what if conversations"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Have the if conversations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right. But it will be more helpful and more productive for you to have those conversations if you articulate them in concrete terms."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think that’s a really good point is I need to write those things down. I need to think about those things. What are the concrete things that I need? Yeah, you’re right. I can’t expect him to give me those things if one, I haven’t asked for them. And two, I don’t have examples of what-"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, definitely, if you haven’t asked for them. I mean, he could. If he’s the world’s most ideal manager, he would. He would knock on your door saying-"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Divine what I’m thinking."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, exactly. But that’s not happening. Right? So it’s about you empowering yourself to dream up what it is. Put a hypothesis. It doesn’t mean that’s what it’s going to be, right? Hold it lightly. And then going and saying, “Hey, I’m seriously considering this. I’m excited about it. Here are the things that would make me really want to do this. And so I just want to talk about what the possibility is.” And then it’s a discussion."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wrote dream it up and ask for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because you never know. What do they say with the lottery? You can’t win it if you’re not in it or something like that? Powerball."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take, all that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right. All of that. All of that. So the same applies here. Okay? So it’s all about the ask. The fact that you’ve outlined what the parameters are is the place to start. It’s like buying a house or going and looking for a house. “I want it to be in this type of neighborhood and I want it to be more in an urban area versus a country area. And I kind of want it to be open space versus closed space.” Okay, that’s great. Then we need to start getting concrete. How many bedrooms, how many bathrooms? What’s the distance between here and the closest store? Do you want a fireplace? Do you not want a fireplace? Do you want a yard? Do you not want a yard? Then we start getting concrete. So you’re sort of at the outer layer of the parameters, and now you just want to put some examples against it and test them out. Test them out. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And when I was thinking about what resources do I need, I was actually thinking of them not even for myself. It was coaching for my team, coaching for the organization, those kinds of things. And I think this has made me realize I need to also, with equal or even more weight, look at what are my asks for me personally. Basically, to help sustain myself as an individual going through this role. What do I need in terms of support?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, what do you need? And ask for those things. Absolutely. Okay? And realize that when you’re doing on a personal level, you are building the capacity to articulate what your team needs and then being able to ask for what your team needs. I do feel like maybe a part of you is like,” I don’t really know what my team’s going to need, so I don’t know what to ask.” Okay. So then what’s the next best thing you can ask for? The next best thing is, “Look, I want to be given an opportunity when I come in and start managing the team to make an assessment of what they need, and to be able to come back to you and say, ‘Here’s my assessment. And I’m going to need some things.’ Are you open to that? Will there be room and space for me to make that assessment, and then talk about what resources we might need?” And let him answer. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I would love to hear from you. I know you’ve jotted down a lot of things, but I’d just love to hear from you, what are your biggest two or three key takeaways? Where’s the money at for you today?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The two big blockers were a big one. But I think even before that, when we went back to the heart and the brain analogy that I used about my heart being excited about this role and my brain saying like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa.” It’s almost like coming up with a process to address the brain piece of it. Because I think what we did here was we said, “Okay brain, you have legitimate concerns. Let’s break them down one by one and really analyze what’s in your control, what’s out of your control, what do you need, what are you going to ask for.” And I think doing that so that the brain is not the inhibitor or not the one holding me back while I’m trying to go forward, but that it’s being validated and also comforted with data, basically, I think for me is actually a really valuable skill that I would love to exercise more in the future. Because I know these kind of situations are going to come up again. They come up all the time in little ways in life too. It’s like, “You want to go take that vacation?” It’s like, “I don’t know. Yes. But so much work.” Right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, this is a thing with me, I recognize. And I think having the ability to go through it step by step like this is going to help me a lot in being able to move forward with confidence. And with the comfort, knowing that my feelings were validated, my brain feelings were validated, and that we went through each of the feelings and cooked up the situation or the scenario and the answer to that scenario. So yeah, I think actually that for me is the big takeaway from this call."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great. And you can practice that, as you said, every single day. Right? Just literally by being able to notice and saying, “Okay, what is going on?” Just start with that. All right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yes. Thank you very much, Muriel. This has been really illuminating and valuable for me. Thank you so much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, thank you. In some ways, user was presented with kind of an ideal scenario, being able to design the job that she wants. But sometimes, what feels like the biggest opportunities can also feel the most overwhelming as this one did for user. Her ability to recognize the past experiences and emotions that were causing her angst about her new situation helped her move forward. In a way, user needed to approach defining her new role like writing on a whiteboard. She could either write over the messy scribble that’s already on there, or she could wipe the board clean and start from there. She chose the latter. By focusing on what’s in her control, having confidence in her ability to deal with whatever happens moving forward, and being clear about the boundaries and support that she needs to perform at her peak, user is now in a much better position to design what she wants her future role to look like, and ask for what she wants. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Want more of Coaching Real Leaders? Join our community where I host live discussions to unpack the coaching sessions, become a member at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find me in my newsletter on LinkedIn @murielwilkins. Thanks to my producer Mary Dooe, sound editor Nick Crnko, music composer Brian Campbell, my assistant Emily Sopha, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations. And to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. If you’re dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show next season. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward. Share it with your friends, subscribe, and leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. From HBR Presents, I’m coach AI. Until next time, be well."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "He’s a mission driven leader who has always found roles where he can help others. He was brought in at a high level at a new organization, but he’s feeling tension and conflict with the organization’s founder. Host Muriel Wilkins coaches him through how to manage himself in this negative work dynamic."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call user to protect his confidentiality. He’s been mission driven for a long time and has a real interest in helping people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Really, it was in college, I would see a lot of pictures up of different humanitarian aid things internationally, and it would actually… I would almost get stomach pain just thinking about the need out there in the world, people, especially without access to resources or that were struggling. Finally, I literally quit school to go and jump in, just kind of didn’t look back, and eventually I had to go back to school. But it was just kind of just a passion thing for people out there that were struggling."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user has spent the bulk of his career so far working internationally with humanitarian-focused organizations. He moved his way up to middle management and recently landed his first senior leadership role at a nonprofit."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I was itching to get back to really helping people in a direct way. I heard about this nonprofit up here where I am now mainly helping people in recovery, and I just fell in love with the mission and then the founder. She wouldn’t take no for an answer. It was a huge step up for me because I was kind of like middle management with very little kind of impact in the overall organization, and lo and behold, there’s a medium size, but growing nonprofit bringing me on as the executive director supposedly taking over for the founder. And so, I love the mission. I love the model. And so, those are the things I jumped in. I said, “let’s do this.” But yeah, a lot has just gone really downhill."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user reached out because while he’s excited about his new role and has all this passion for the job and the people it serves, he’s running into some trouble dealing with the founder of the organization. So, I started by asking him to share a bit more about how things have gone downhill for him."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The founder of the organization that brought me on, she was going to move on after a while. When I got in, she just really encouraging. We had one employee, and it’s funny because the founder told me that this employee was taking advantage of the organization, not showing up to work, not supporting her role. But then when I would step in, the founder would then change her mind. So there’s that part, and then just the micromanaging of the founder. There’s just some real hardcore really adding complexity to the issue. I came in, like I told you, with this full steam ahead. They weren’t quantifying goals. They weren’t even looking at outcomes, outputs, anything. And I was like, well, let’s do this. Let’s quantify stuff. Let’s set up goals. But she would come in afterwards and then question that in front of all the employees behind my back, and then the employees just wouldn’t know what to do. And I went to the board finally."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, there is a board?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There is a board. I went to the board."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had been trying so hard. I’ve been trying so hard to be direct. And I remembered one of your podcasts, Muriel, you talked about there was somebody that they were struggling because they kept leaving an organization every time they didn’t feel valued or they didn’t feel like it was novel. I was like, I don’t want to be that person. You talked about being resilient. And I’m like, I’m not going to be that person that is not resilient. I did every, like direct conversations. Finally, I went to the board and their response was, we know. And so now I’m just like, things are just so complex. There’s just this cycle with this founder. I just don’t feel like it’s about the mission anymore. I feel like it’s more about the founder trying to keep the organization the same, not impact more people, and I’m looking to move elsewhere. But it just breaks my heart and I feel like maybe a failure, and I don’t want this to happen again. Now I’m like, job applications everywhere. How do I stop this sort of thing from happening? Is there something wrong with me?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So there’s a lot there, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, I first want to acknowledge what it sounds like is a pretty challenging situation that you find yourself in. You moved to join an organization that seemed like one where you were very aligned with the mission and then you joined, and it’s kind of like The Wizard of Oz. You pull back the curtain and it’s oh-"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "… not quite what I thought it would be. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I think there’s that element. And then there’s the other element that at least in my experience, coaching people who have stepped in and worked with founders, sometimes it can be tricky if those relationships aren’t sort of explicitly, consciously constructed or contracted from the get-go. Really tricky in any situation, and it has to be carefully transitioned. So, I just want to acknowledge just from a baseline standpoint, this isn’t sort of, oh, what do you mean? You’re just dealing with management 101 issues. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I want to calibrate. It’s not like I just want to calibrate that you walked into what you thought was a 5K race, and instead you’re running a marathon. Okay? That actually happened to a friend of mine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh my gosh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We both went to a race. I was doing the half-marathon. She was doing the 5K, but then she took the wrong turn. She missed a turn and ended up running a whole half-marathon-"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh my gosh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "… But she did it. But at-"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "… Some point she figured out that’s what she was doing. And I think for you, I’m bringing this up because I want you to ground in the reality of it. The reality of it is it’s not a sort of baseline regular management 101 type of thing. Okay? And then the other thing you mentioned is around resilience, and is this a reflection of whether you have the resilience to deal with something like this? There’s a thin line between resilience and just being plain old stubborn. So we want to make sure you’re operating on the right side of things. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So what is it that you want to have happen? What would make you feel like you have some form of positive outcomes for you coming out of this conversation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Man, I just want to learn from this and then come into something else. Maybe be able to find, I would just love a healthy team, how to look for a better fit. Because like you noted, this organization was a great fit for me. It leaned on past experience and a passion of mine with the mission, but it’s just not being heard, and it’s just like, I should have seen it. You feel like you should have seen red flags, like oh, that’s something I got to watch out for, or I need to nip this in the bud. I guess the question is how do you look for a better situation?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I get it. And you mentioned before the feeling a little bit of, well, I don’t know if it’s a little bit, of failure, and how do you keep this from happening? Which inherent in the question of how do you keep this from happening, I hear an assumption in there that you could have kept this from happening."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I don’t know. Could you have kept this from happening?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s a hard question. I mean, obviously I’ve learned if there is a founder involved to be very cautious, if not insistent, that they maybe step away for a time. But it just didn’t seem like this was going to be a problem at the beginning because we were so in sync, it seemed. And plus that would’ve been probably seemed inappropriate and offensive at the time to be like, I’ll come in, but you need to leave, or something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, you don’t. Exactly. You don’t know. You don’t know. I mean, user, what’s amazing to me here is you have spent your whole career working with people in the most vulnerable of situations. And if any of those folks came to you and said, “Hey, I should have kept this from happening. I should have kept myself from falling into this situation of poverty or finding myself homeless,” what would you say to them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That is such a great question. Well, I would tell them that yesterday is yesterday, that we didn’t all have a fair shake and that there’s a big opportunity for them to use this in their story moving forward actually as a story of overcoming great challenges, that it can inspire many people like them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great. So, a story of overcoming challenges. Now here’s the thing. I’m hearing your side of it. Okay. I don’t have the founder in front of me to be able to say, okay, what’s the deal? What did user do? Not do? So, I am fully cognizant that there are many, many sides to every situation. And again, I’m not saying there’s a right or a wrong side. I’m saying there are many sides. And so the situation you find yourself in is co-created. It’s like the weather. When we wake up one day and what we’re experiencing now on the West coast and they have all this cold weather and snow and all this stuff, and you’re like, what happened? Well, it’s a combination of factors that just happen to all meet at that particular time that were a long time in the making. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, yes, you brought your piece of the weather, she brought hers, both of which were a long time in the making, and now you’re in this situation. Okay? So I’m not absolving anyone from their part of it. Everybody has a part of it. Could you have asked other questions that maybe would’ve given you a clue? Could you have done some other due diligence on this person that maybe could have given you a clue? Could you have not taken that job? Yeah. There’s a lot of could’ve, would’ve, but you didn’t, and you’re here. And so, I think just like you said, you would say to some of the folks that you work with, what is your story going to be? What is the story that you want to write in terms of overcoming this challenge moving forward? So, when I ask you that, what is the story you want to write?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, one thing I’ve learned is not to idealize how an organization should work, kind of seeing that organizations have a little bit of family in them, especially if they’ve been standing a while. There’s like some baked in relational things that are pretty complex, and I think that I came to this with a framework that didn’t allow for that. So, I would love to learn from that in the future to be able to not come in so much like a wrecking ball of let’s do this. We’re all on the same page. Let’s go out there. Let’s measure the impact. And I would love for that to be a lesson that I could learn to go in and be more of a student of not just how it works, but relationally how things are."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let’s sort of use this situation as a laboratory for that. What do you think you could have done that would’ve made you more of a student early on to understand not just how the organization works in terms of its delivery model, but also relationally how it operates? What could you have done that’s different than what you did do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I think one of the things I could have done is, and this is one I’m seeing from a lot of executive directors, is you get put in and it’s all on you. It’s like you’re a catch-all for all of the to-do lists. And so a lot of times I see we just jump in and I just jumped in and it was about me and my performance, transforming the organization and moving along the calendar. And a lot of that is the board. And even the founder herself was telling me, we need to do this and this and this, but to be able to stop for a second and not be such an individual performer, not be so focused on what I bring in and having really nice board reports. Instead, being like, well, let’s hold on a second, and not just getting to know people on a relational to have a relationship with me-"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not just getting to know people on a relational to have a relationship with me, but also examining how they interact with each other and just kind of get a feeling. I would love to learn that skill to see how they mesh together so I can respect it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Well, I love that you used the word student. And so when you think about what makes an effective student, what is it that enables somebody to be an effective student? What skills are they using?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wow, that’s great. I think there has to be a sense of humility. There’s something to learn because you’re actually trying to learn and you’re trying to study and listen and just have a sense of anticipation that there is something to be learned, and that’s kind of the opposite of the individual performer like I’m going to get these numbers and I’m going to blow the socks of the board. The board even criticized me. They said, “There’s nothing in your board report that’s vulnerable. Where’s the section of how you’re struggling?” I’m like, I didn’t think I was supposed to tell you guys where I was struggling."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, I mean, look, I think you hit the nail in the head. It’s actually a balance. If you think about someone being an effective student, I have kids who are in school, and well, what does it mean? They do need to do the work? It’s not like you have homework, so it’s not like, oh, no work. You have to do the work which it sounds like you were great at that. You jumped right in to do the work. But then there’s this piece of you’re also there to learn something. As you said, there’s an anticipation to learn, which means that I actually believe I have something to learn. If you don’t believe you have something to learn, you have left the station of being a student a long time ago. And how do you learn? You learn by doing, and you learn also by listening and by asking questions. So, to your charge for yourself around how can I come in as a leader and both deliver and be a student so that I can pick up on the relational aspects and the delivery aspects… I don’t know. You tell me. How much time did you spend listening and asking questions when you first came on board?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, it was from a different perspective. It was more like how can I personally form a relationship with people rather than how these things worked. And I came in with a bias because I came in and they hadn’t been very effective in a lot of areas, so I’m realizing that I assumed that they kind of weren’t as good at their job or something, you know what I mean? I assumed that there were some inherent problems. And so now that you’re talking, it’s helping me see that I automatically assumed that it wasn’t going to be helpful to study their relationships or how they were doing things because obviously they weren’t doing it really, really well, and so let’s just move forward."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A big part of what happens in coaching is self-reflection. You get an increased sense of self-awareness, which is critical before anyone can move to action. While user was eager to get some tips on how to deal with the issues he’s facing, it was important that he see what his contribution has been to the situation. His ability and willingness to take a hard look at his own behaviors, set the stage for a more a productive coaching session. He finds himself in a situation that many people face at one time or another throughout their career, the experience of taking a job, feeling like it’s the perfect fit and having things go a different way. user came into the role with a lot of expectations, looking to show that he could do a great job in this leadership position and move the organization in a certain direction. His frustration at things not going the way he had envisioned is understandable, but it’s also holding him hostage. By turning the focus on what he can do differently moving forward, it would allow him to regain some of his footing. Let’s jump back in as I ask BENJAMIN how he can leverage his past experiences to strengthen how he approaches his leadership today, especially as it pertains to his team. To me, what’s coming up as you’re talking user is like, I think that there’s such a comparison to the direct impact work that you’ve done as a humanitarian. And you mentioned that you’ve worked with people in recovery. And so when you work with people in recovery or you work with people in, again, very vulnerable situations, survival situation from a humanitarian standpoint, what is the mindset that you go in with in order to really be able to support them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That is a great comparison because you definitely would not go in thinking, well, obviously what you’ve done in the past hasn’t worked so we’re just going to plow through your recovery. And I personally don’t have that perspective about someone in recovery. I have the utmost respect for their bravery, and it’s a cycle. It’s not always linear, their progress. But I even come to that since with my own employees or the people I worked with. It was not respectful of the efforts they had in the past, so that is really a great insight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, if you came in, let’s say it’s day one here or day one at your next place, and you approach it from what seems to be a pretty authentic leadership approach that you have, you’ve just applied it in one area and not so much in another, what would be the difference in terms of how you approach your employees?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I would be curious about their own goals and their own frustrations and their own, what’s worked well for them in the past, what’s not working so well? I would just be more of a student of how they felt in the organization, how their relationships were, and yeah, to build that community and not be so hyper focused on performance and on things that seem impressive on a balance sheet or on a P&L."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Again, it is a balance. Yes, you want to do all that and at some point you need to deliver as well. Okay. And I’m curious, what is it that you feel, because you mentioned it a few times, this you were very driven to perform to show the value. What is it that drove you to lean on that side of it more, that bias that you said, versus the let me also learn and meet folks where they are?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To be honest, a lot of it was just that this was, like I said, one of the biggest leadership roles I’ve had. And I did have people even in my own family that were doubtful that I could handle such a large role overseeing so many things, and then even just showing kind of like an ROI for my wife and my kids. I moved them. It’s funny. I just really needed it to work and I really needed to be able to show something for it, and now it’s not working, but. But it’s like, I just wanted to prove that I could do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, you wanted to prove that you could do it, which I don’t think if we go back to the beginning of our conversation, proving that you could do this doesn’t sound to me that was the mission you were drawn to, and yet that’s what you made your mission."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So, I think there’s this question here around moving forward, being really clear about what your mission is and then staying aligned to that. And by the way, look, sometimes your mission is going to be I need to prove that I can do this. I need to prove to myself that I can present something or run a race or whatever it is. Okay, fine. Then align your actions with that. But when there’s dissonance when you’re saying, “Hey, here’s the mission I’m here to serve,” but really there’s this whole other mission that you’re serving, things don’t add up."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I can definitely see that. It definitely started with a narrative of it’s kind of like that hero’s journey versus what the real mission that drew me out here was which was to help people. And I can see how those can distract one from the other, and so I don’t want to go into another place like a wrecking ball with it all being about what I can accomplish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, you’re still at your current organization, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So I think there’s a bit of like for the time that you have there, how can you make it work for you? Because have you decided definitely, definitely you’re leaving?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m maybe 70% on leaving, but I’m not a hundred percent, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, okay. And I’m neither here nor there. It’s whatever you want at this point in terms of what that looks like. But for the time being for today, you’re there until you get to a hundred percent that you’re leaving or you get to a hundred percent that you’re staying, that decision will come one day. So my question to you is while you’re there, what would it look like for you to lead in a way that is fully aligned to the mission that you originally came with in spite of this founder that you’re dealing with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it would make it less about how frustrated I am and make sense now why I’m just completely frustrated about not being able to achieve goals. Because in my heart it has been about me achieving goals, and it would be more about how do I learn from the people I work with about how it’s going for them. Just really focus on the mission while still trying to get help somehow and accomplishing these goals that have gotten very, very complex."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, at a tactical level, at a concrete level, what would that look like for you tomorrow if you went in with that mindset?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it would look like spending time with the people I work with beyond the founder and beyond the program director, and just, I know this isn’t concrete, but falling in love again with what we get to do, and just really focusing on the mission standpoint of how we’re doing, spending more time with the people that we serve, probably bringing that mindset going forward."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And user, that doesn’t mean that you need to be in denial around the reality of the founder. That’s not what I’m suggesting at all. This is not like, oh, just use positive thinking and think about the good stuff and forget the bad stuff. That’s not what this is at all. This is about finding your anchor during the storm. You are there right now. And so why are you there right now? What is going to be your purpose during this very difficult time? What is going to hold you there in a way that doesn’t suck you up in this feeling of frustration that you’ve had? Where can you find your calm? Because it’s clear you have found the frustration, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I think our… we’re at a place of, where do you find your calm? Where do you find the part that’s going to continue to drive you? It’s almost like coming back to home base. What’s your home base?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s so good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it sounds like it’s something that’s been a common thread for you your whole profession, which is helping people. And now it’s not just helping people in terms of the folks that you serve, but also helping people within your organization, your employees, your teams, et cetera, wherever you might be able to."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s great, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Again, not ignoring the founder piece, but I think it’s important to get some grounding and everything else before addressing the founder piece because that’s already consumed a lot of your energy."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. No, I think that would be life giving to reconnect with the mission and also if I am supposed to go somewhere else, that I would be able to have that singularity of purpose of mind of mission and just focus on that. Because I’m sure that even though this is a unique situation with the founder, there are frustrations everywhere and no organization is free of that, and there’s always a limit to what we can do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is a truth. That is a truth. You’re absolutely right. There are going to be challenges everywhere. That’s life and that is organizational life. Okay? The challenges are not going to disappear. The question is how you respond to them. Now, will some challenges be more exacerbated than others? Absolutely. And it sounds like you have found yourself in one that’s like deeply exacerbated. But you have a choice. You have a choice to deal with it, learn from it, stick with it, or you have a choice to go. You know? What my sense is your frustration as it relates to the founder, which I think now we need to hone in on, has been that you haven’t been able to change the way the founder behaves."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But inherent in that is an assumption that you can change the way the founder behaves."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, and it’s funny you mention that because one of my board members, she’s amazing. She has always given me leadership books to listen to, audiobooks, and when I bring these issues to her, and even in a group setting with other board members, she just says, “Oh, you’ll figure it out.” All these leadership books are like, “How do you best change someone’s behavior, change someone’s mind?” Or it’s almost like how do you wear a certain color that causes them to… And I’m like, “Look, I’m looking for support here and I’m not looking for how to manipulate them. I’m trying to raise this red flag, help.” And they’re just like, “I’m sure you’ll figure it out.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, user, that’s why there is so many of those books. It’s like how do you lose 50 pounds in three days? Everybody buys that book and multiple copies because it never works. I mean, here’s the thing, can you truly change the other? No, you cannot. You can influence the other, there’s no guarantee. Change assumes that you can actually completely change them. Very, very hard to do because it’s out of your control. The one thing that’s in your control is you. And so what’s in your control in this situation vis-à-vis the founder?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just try to be honest. I can share, I can talk. It does feel kind of like a waste of time. She is not very confrontational, so she shuts down and makes it like, “Oh, I didn’t mean that.” And I’ve even showed her the conversation, and I’m like, “But that’s exactly what you said.” And she’ll come in and change, make just some HR decision or something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. But what’s interesting here though, user, is if we take it back a couple of steps, okay, is at what point, if any, did you and the founder contract around what is your role and what is her role? What are the decision rights? What are the things that you’re accountable for and that she’s accountable for? What are the things that you need her approval on and don’t need her approval on, that she needs to weigh in on or doesn’t need to weigh in on? At what point did that conversation or series of conversations happen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s a great question. So yeah, we have had those conversations many times. So we’ve written it out, we’ve talked about it, and then she’ll jump in. And so then when I confront her about it, she gets defensive. And it’s even gotten to the point sometimes, it’s almost like clockwork, where I’m like, “I think we should go to the board and we can ask for a just renewed job description for me.” And all of a sudden, “Oh no, I should just step back.” She doesn’t want to go to the board with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I mean, look, I think in the same way that this was a big leap for you in the way that you perceived it, of going from middle management to now the leader, as executive director, this is a big leap for her, as having been the founder and executive director for I don’t know how long, and now having to change roles. So again, she’s not here with us, I’m not coaching her, but my sense is probably she reverts back to what she knows versus fully stepping into whatever it is, her new role is solely as founder. So I can understand why that can be a challenge. What’s unclear is does she have the commitment, the self-commitment and wherewithal to let go of some of the things that previously were hers? And only time will tell, only time will tell. Again, she’s not here with us. So given that, the question becomes for you, what are you willing to be okay with and for how long?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that really is the question. I’ve actually done a lot of counseling for people and there’s something we always go back to, which is hope. And I really had a lot of hope. I’ve realized that I can keep going until it feels like the wheels will fall off. But I ask myself, “Do I want to? Do I want to do that?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I think that’s the key question here. I think the question right now is, what is it that you want? Okay? Not, “How do I wish other people would act?” What is it that you want? And there is no magical answer. I don’t have a right or wrong answer to offer you, I don’t have this manual that I can look at and say, “Hey, user, you know what? Give it three more days and if it doesn’t get any better, you need to go.” Or, “user, you know what? I think you should stick around for another three months because there’s a lot of growth here.” It really all depends on what is it that you want. In order to decide what to do, you have to define what it is that you want, and it has to be grounded in the reality of what’s happening. I’m all for hope and keeping hope alive, but your decision needs to be grounded in the reality of what’s happening. So far in this coaching session, we’ve gotten a really clear sense of the problem and the struggles that user is facing. A common theme for him, as well as many of my other coaching clients, is that we can’t really control what other people do. It’s important that user defines what he wants and to keep that in mind as he takes action. That could be deciding that his wellbeing is important above all else and so the job just isn’t for him, or it could be that he wants to stick with it for X number of years to learn all he can. Whatever that motivation is, it’s important to define it to help him move forward. Let’s dive back in, as user walks through articulating what he wants and how he might get there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s interesting that you talk about what I want. In my religious background, there’s this concept of calling which has always come up. It’s almost like, I don’t know, read the tea leaves or something. And this is one of the first times in my life I’m like, “It really is solely based on what I want.” And so isn’t that weird that that would be a hard question to answer? And I don’t expect you to tell me what I want, Muriel, don’t worry about that. But how do you figure out what you want?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right. I mean, look, I’m still trying to figure out what I want. That’s a day-to-day decision for me. But you said, “Isn’t it weird?” I don’t think there’s anything weird about it, it just is. And I think based on what you just said, where you tend to operate more around my understanding of a calling, which is you are called to do something, it’s a response to something, something out there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I think this question of “what do I want” is still a calling. It’s just a response to your own self."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wow, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Rather than something out there, it’s a response to something in you rather than something out there. So the model is not any different, it’s just where the calling is coming from."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wow, that’s really good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, I think you’re at a place right now of discerning what is your own calling."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm, that’s good. That’ll be new for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, it’s what we call intuition. Listening to your gut, okay? And at some point, I mean, I’m not a hugely religious person, but I know enough. At some point, where the magic really happens, is when the inner calling matches the external calling."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s good, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One is not better than the other. And I think we’re also getting rid of this myth that career progression and career advancement is linear. It’s not, that’s not how growth happens. Advancement and growth are not the same thing. And so I think what you’re going through right now is a period of growth. It just tends to be a period of growth that is more of a zigzag and maybe some backsliding rather than, Oh, I got here and I conquered it all and I did it, and that’s just going to move me to the next step. Instead, it’s saying, Oh, what it’s highlighting are things that are not yet learned. The question for you is, is this place, what we talked about, being a student, being able to ask questions, being able to listen, being able to meet the board, the employees, everybody where they are, being able to stay anchored in the mission. Those are all learning opportunities. I think the question is, is this organization, given what’s happening with the founder, at what point does it become a place where it’s not productive for learning for you, productive for growth for you? You have to make that determination. Everybody has different thresholds."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And another aspect being at what point does my learning or trying to learn how to deal with it the best for the organization in terms of meeting its needs?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right, that’s absolutely right. I mean, that’s very wise of you, user, because when faced with a challenge and that challenge is not met in the most effective way, something gives, either the individual, the leader facing the challenge or the organization. And at the worst extent, both get compromised, both face negative consequences. So I think to bring it back to the founder situation, because I’m clearly not giving you any type of direct answer, but a lot of questions, I think the thing I would be curious about is what do you feel is in your control vis-à-vis the founder for the time that remains while you’re at this organization? Let’s assume you’re there for another six months to a year. What is in your control vis-à-vis your relationship with the founder?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I think that, in reality, what I can do is input some of that learning because it’s apparent to me that she’s not really cognizant or not maybe she shouldn’t really realize how it affects the mission when we compromise on some of these things. I can be that, maybe a lifeline for her, try to just kindly be understanding towards her, like you mentioned, the fact that this is new for her. At the same time, I just really need to do an assessment of, there’s obviously some things I need to learn, there’s some things that aren’t working, and is the organization going to limp along while I try to figure these out or learn these things? Or do I need to help them put someone else in place and just allow the founder to continue being the founder until they’re really ready for an executive director. Because if really she’s not ready to move on, the board’s not ready to have that happen, I don’t think that I should be getting an executive director’s salary there when they already basically have an executive director that’s got a very clear vision."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. And so that’s an assessment that you have to make. That’s a very mature assessment, to be able to say, “Hey, I know you want me here, I don’t think you guys are ready for me. So, let’s figure out how we take it from here.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, set it up for success, because I really do love the mission, I love the organization so much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you mentioned around helping her meet the mission, helping the founder meet the mission. Do you sense that the two of you have alignment on the mission? Is she as passionate about the mission as you are?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "She’s definitely passionate. There are some different nuances that end up being big things. And so there is a difference. She’s just kind of like, Hey, let’s keep things like they are, and everyone’s just fine. And I’m more like, All these people are coming in with real problems and let’s help them get to where they want to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, so I mean, that sounds like it’s not necessarily a difference in mission, but more like a difference in strategy. How do you implement the mission, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this is a learning for you both where you are, but also wherever you go in the future. Yeah, if you’re going to lead an organization and you have a board to report to, you have a founder that it sounds like you are reporting to the founder to a certain extent, there has to be alignment around the strategy."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’re right, we’re divided on strategy, but that’s a problem. And now that you mention it, it’s like that’s something I hadn’t considered. I was thinking of the vision, long-term vision. We like the general notion of helping people, but the strategies are completely different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And so here’s the thing though, you might have…"}, {"role": "user", "content": "… completely different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And so here’s the thing though, you might have an articulation of the vision and there’s an agreement there, so it’s the vision. Then when you get into, okay, how are we actually going to execute on that vision, which is the strategy. And so, this lack of alignment in strategy is what’s then trickling down to differences in approach. So part of it is you can spend your time in the muckety-muck of you and the founder have very different styles, and we’re going to argue about whether we should be using this font or that font in a report. You’ve got bigger issues here."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s so true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s just that the difference in, “Should we use this font or that font,” is easier to grasp, but you’ve got way bigger issues as the leader."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. You guys are arguing over the breadcrumbs on the floor versus what kind of nutrition do we even want to be having, like what does the meal need to look like."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That is really good insight because yeah, now that you mention it, that is the wall that we’ve been hitting. As I look at it, whenever we have some sort of clash or something, it is strategic. I think that we’re on different pages. I think that there’s the vision, and we both believe in the model, but there is this question of what is our strategy to get people where they need to go, and that’s where the conflict comes in. But there’s a false alignment, there’s a false consensus. You know what I mean?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. There is no alignment because it sounds like the word that you all are actually focused on is “agreement.” Agreement and alignment are two different things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Consensus and agreement are two different things. Alignment and consensus is, Even if this is not my top choice in terms of how we do things, I can live with it. I understand it and I can live with it, and I’m going to commit to following through on it.” Agreement is, This is it. This is my choice. This is what I’m doing.” Maybe the place now is, as you as the leader, is to reframe it to alignment. How can we get alignment around this? How do we align? It’s like when you drive a car, you can feel when your wheels are out of alignment. The car still drives, but they’re out of alignment. So it’s how do we just get everybody moving in the right direction? You have to have some conversation around what would a strategy look like that we could all be comfortable with, okay with, even if it’s not our first choice in strategy."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s really good. Yeah, I can see that, because I think that that is kind of immature thinking that we’ve been all dealing with, an organization is that we all have to be in complete agreement. When in reality, in order to even function as a whole as an organization, we actually need to be in alignment, and we’re not always going to agree but we need to align on a strategy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right, that’s right. And that is the role of an executive director. That is the role of any leader, and again, exacerbated by the pieces around the founder. But I’m going to tell you, regardless of style, personality style, if the executive director and the founder and the board and then the employees are not aligned around strategy, it’s going to be a challenge either way. But there’s a difference between pushing for it, user, and aligning people. Again, going back to the example of a car. I can’t push my wheel into alignment. The little that I know about car mechanics, I don’t think I can literally push … At least I don’t have the strength to do it, and it probably wouldn’t work out for the best in the long-run. But there’s a process that needs to go through, whether the wheels are balanced, they’re tweaked one at a time. Somebody who’s an expert in doing that does it. They make sure they’re … So, it’s much more nuanced. There’s no pushing here, there’s no pushing of an agenda. Again, I’m talking semantics but it’s the intention of alignment, which is are we all facing the right direction? The same direction, not even the right direction, are we all facing the same direction? Are we all going at the same pace? Are we checking each other as we’re going? And you’re the one who is trying to orchestrate that, but the place to start is to reframe it, and I think to even gauge whether there’s an appetite to do that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Gotcha. Yeah, I love that. I love that. So, it’s not pushing, it’s not just, “Hey, we do …” That’s aligned. And I think that goes back to what you counseled me earlier of learning, coming in learning first. I should have been able to … Well, you say should have. We say something up here, “We should not should on ourselves.” But it’s like, I should’ve been able to tell that there were differences in strategy and I should’ve had the wherewithal, but of course, it was my first time in a role like this, to be like, “Is there a strategic plan, and what’s the process and how much of a role does the executive director play in that?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right. I mean, no, there is no should as you said, because you didn’t know. You didn’t know, you didn’t know. Now you know. So, to your question earlier on, “How do I keep this from happening the next time,” because it’s happened, so why think about how you could have kept it happening this time, but the next time it’s not even a guarantee that you keep it from happening. You just now have a better sense of what questions to ask and what to look for that is going to support the role that you want to play in that organization."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. We’ve covered quite a bit, and I know we went over and beyond the founder, and that’s purposeful. I think you have a life over and beyond the founder at this org. Not to say you should ignore the founder, don’t ignore the founder. And there’s life beyond the founder in terms of what your job is there. So I would just love to hear from you, A, what’s different for you now relative to when we first started our coaching session? And then B, what are your top one or two takeaways coming out of this discussion?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think what’s different for me now is … Man, there’s so much. I think the alignment versus agreement thing, being much more concerned with just coming into it with a picture of what the strategy is or to be a student. I want to be a student. A student of relationship, I want to be a student of strategy, and also just that whole process of strategic planning. And then not to push things but to frame things and look for alignment, rather than trying to maybe force things. And then just treating employees like I would treat the people that we help. Treating people in the organization with a sense of empathy and understanding their relationships and how they interweave to best set them up for success, rather than just focusing on my own performance and being that individual performer and that super boss or whatever. My mission is not to prove that I can do it, my mission is to help others, and that’s what I set out to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Beautiful, beautiful. I mean, I think if you could write that down and look at that every day, it’ll help you get through until you know what’s next for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Thank you, user."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you, Muriel."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What we know about leadership is that there is always, always going to be complexity. You’re never really just facing one issue at once. In user’s case, he came to the coaching session really wanting to tackle the issue he was having with the founder of the company, how he could avoid a similar situation in the future, which is a fine place to start and a good goal to have. But as we know, we can’t always fully know all the variables around a new role or the people we’ll be working with until we’re in it. And when we see things more clearly, the best thing we can do is try to understand why things are the way they are. Not to change the past, but rather to inform how to move forward. For user, there are a few things he can focus on going forward that apply in a lot of other leadership situations. One, it’s about remembering his mission and why he’s there. Two, it’s about narrowing down that mission to the specific purpose or reasons why he might stay in this job and for how long. There is something to gain from the situation, even if it doesn’t last much longer. And to that end, he can use this as an opportunity to flex skills that he’ll need at any organization. How to find strategic alignment, how to set a course, and how to influence but not control how others act on the company’s goals. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Want more of this episode? Join the Coaching Real Leaders Community, where I host live discussions to unpack the coaching sessions you hear on this show. Become a member at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find more from me on LinkedIn at coach AI. Thanks to my producer Mary Dooe, sound editor Nick Crnko, music composer Brian Campbell, my assistant Emily Sopha, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners, who share in their journeys. If you are dealing with a leadership challenge I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show. Apply coachingrealleaders.com. And of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward, share it with your friends, subscribe and leave and review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. From the HBR Podcast Network, I’m coach AI. Until next time, be well."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "She loves the work she does and has effectively managed her career to gain increased responsibility over time. She’s recently started managing managers for the first time and is struggling to find the right pace to help her organization reach long-term strategic goals, amid some short-term uncertainty. Host Muriel Wilkins coaches her through setting goals and timelines for the long term."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone will call user to protect her confidentiality. She’s worked in the higher education sector for decades, and she continues to be driven by the work and the relationships she gets to build."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To be able to see students, to get to know them, to get to see how they grow and change during these four years, and then to see them have success as they launch into the world, and then to see that they reach back so quickly to give back and to see the way that our community supports our students as they are navigating, exploring their values and their purpose and what they’re feeling called to do. All of that is just really rewarding."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For a long time, user was at the director level and managed a small team, but recently there was a shakeup."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a new leader of our organization who brought in a new structure, and my role was a part of this structure of this new organization that had never been aligned in this way. So in the new role, there was an expansion of my duties. The team grew. It’s the first time in my career that I have been a manager of managers as opposed to managing a small team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user has taken on more responsibility. She’s energized by the challenge and has ambitious goals, but she reached out to make sure she was approaching these goals in the right way, and to think about ways she can succeed as a first time manager of managers. I wanted to get a baseline of where she was at. So I began by asking her how she felt about this new increase in responsibilities."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s been exciting. It’s been great to still be in an institution where I still feel called to do this work, while also having the opportunity to grow and to learn. Love to learn. It’s nice to have that expansion of learning. And there were all the areas that now report to me I had a little bit of insight into. I had been an advisor at one point, so that was not something that I had no idea about. Success coaching, completely new. So to have that report to a person who reports to me has been a new area to learn about. So I’m now learning about things that were just beyond what my original scope of work was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so what brought you here? Why are we meeting? What’s going on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We are meeting because there are some goals we have as a team that cannot be accomplished in a single year or a single semester. They’re going to take years of effort and work. They’re also going to take multiple collaborators. Our team cannot do it alone. So we’re relying on so many partnerships and collaborations. And so that is a lot to keep track of and also, to know what is the right pace? What is the right amount to get done in one year toward a goal that I can set a timeframe on it and say, we want to have this done in three years, but some of it is outside of our control because of all these multiple collaborators. And so it’s hard to know what is the right pace to do this work, what is the right timeline to even project and guess might be the right time to allow us to start to achieve some of these goals. And what is the right allotment of my time? So, this is the first time that I have been in this more strategic role as opposed to just doing and managing. And so I am just still trying to figure out what is the right allotment of my time? What is the right timeframe to put on these goals? And how do we know if we’re measuring progress in the right way? These are the questions that I struggle with almost daily."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. All right. And what does that struggle look like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It looks like just a constant wonder of, am I getting this right? Am I spending my days in the right way? Should I be doing more? Should I be doing things differently? The inability to feel confident that the way that I am arranging my days and weeks and months is the correct and accurate way to get us where we are trying to go as an institution and as a team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So lots of unknowns for you around how to map out the future, not only for your team and the strategy and as you said, the pacing and the timing to be able to reach your goals, but also, for you personally, in terms of being the leader of this team, how you should be allocating your time. And as you put it, am I spending my time, the “right way”. Okay. So how would you know it’s the right way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Great question. That is what’s so hard to know. Will I only know it in reverse? Will I only know it at the end of a year when I look back and say, “Oh, we accomplished X or Y?” Am I supposed to know it at the end of every month? Because we were able to set a goal and we achieved it that month. That’s what I’m struggling with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because the things that we’re trying to do cannot be accomplished in a single year. It’s so far out. It will take so long to know that we have moved the needle towards success. That it’s hard to know working backwards, okay, was this a good week? Did we get things done the right way? There are some goals, right? I could say have one conversation a week with a potential collaborator or partner."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To what end?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But what if it took three conversations to actually-"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What if it took three?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right? What if it took five?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Got you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. I hear you. You’re looking for the formula."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I am."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don’t know if there is a formula, user. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think you’ve got to create your own formula, and it’s a hypothesis, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, let me ask you this, right? Sounds like you’ve worked directly with students–"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "–as well. And you articulated that what you love about the work that you’ve done and the community that you’re in, is that it’s in support of these students being able to launch. Now, I presume when these students come in, they’re four years out from that launch?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Call it one to four."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, for those that are four years out, how did you in the past, determine what was the right way to spend your time? So that the ultimate goal would be that they launched successfully in four years."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, if it was an individual conversation with an individual student, giving them some of the tools and resources and giving them some ideas of experiences that they should be having along the way, was the way to help them think about reverse engineering a successful launch following their degree."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, you gave them the information so that they could reverse engineer and say, “Oh, so what do I need to do along these four years to be able to get to this ultimate point?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So what would it look like to reverse engineer the goals that you’ve set for your team?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I think painting a picture of what success… What we hope the outcomes are and the impacts are, and what our hopes are for just pick a time. Whether that’s three years or four years or two years, and then follow my own advice and reverse engineer it. And so if we say, okay, if we want to have this specific number of courses that embed career readiness, just to pick a number and buy a specific date and then figure out, okay, if that’s the number of courses, then how many potential collaborators would we need to speak with? Knowing that not everyone’s going to say yes, not everybody’s going to buy in. Then figuring out, okay, do we think that half the people will, or do we think that a third of the people will? And just like you’re saying, a hypothesis, make that guess and start working toward that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I do think there’s a bit of a reverse engineering. So I think there’s two parts to it. There’s the, how do you get your team tracked and pacing? And then there’s the, how do you spend your time within that? So let’s tackle the team piece. And it sounds like you already have goals that are established. The question is, when are those goals supposed to be met by?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So while you can create a hypothesis, it needs to be informed, and then you want to test it. And so my question is, where did these goals come from? What’s the context of these goals? Are they in support of bigger goals for your institution? What is the container that they’re in that might give you a better sense of what the time range is?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we’re in a bit of a transition period. So the leader who created this new division that I’m a part of, departed, and we’ve had an interim leader, an acting leader, and now, the new leader is going to arrive and begin work. So, there will be a little bit of a discernment period and a goal setting period and a strategic planning process that our work needs to support."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. All right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that’s why it’s hard to say, okay, should we just say we want to accomplish some of these goals within two years, but what if our new leaders’ strategic priorities are a little bit different and we need to step back and figure out a way to sort out those priorities? So we’re in a little bit of a holding pattern."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So what if that happens?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then we adjust. We adjust."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think you’re leading in a state of ambiguity. That’s what’s exacerbating this, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re trying to make things known in a situation that is unknown. So in fact, your feeling of I’m not sure what the future is going to look like is on point because it is unsure what the future is going to look like because the future leadership isn’t here yet. The strategic planning process hasn’t happened. And so you’re trying to make these decisions around goals for your team in a vacuum."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Exactly. And yet, I want to do a little bit of strategic planning ourselves in a very draft form so that when the new leader arrives, we have some things for that leader to react and respond to. The leader may say, “Nope, none of this.” Or the leader may say, “This seems good.” And so that we are not just waiting, but that we are ready to respond and to show, okay, this is the value based on the strategic ideas that you will bring. Here’s the value that our team can bring in support of this new leader’s vision."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. All right. So you’ve articulated two options and you’ve got to choose one."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re either in a holding pattern, which is, you know what? We’re not doing any planning. We’re not doing any goal setting, we’re not doing any of that. We’re just going to wait until new leader provides clarity. Or you decide that you’re going to head towards some destination, right? Not quite sure which one yet, but you’re going to figure it out, which means you’re going to do your own interim planning process and start working towards those goals. What you can’t do is be in a holding pattern and head towards your destination at the same time. It’s physically impossible. So I think what I’m hearing around what you’re struggling with is not necessarily the timing of marching towards the goals, but you need to take it to step one, do I even want to claim these goals and own these goals and make a plan against them and do the work? Or do I want to wait?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so which one are you leaning towards?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m leaning towards still planning because the leader who is coming, is known to me. This is a leader who actually hired me to move into the role that I was in prior to this new expanded role. And so I know a little bit about what matters to this new leader, and I think that the work that we are doing will be in alignment with his goals."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I would love to have some things ready for response, even if we have to set us aside and say, “that’s not it.” No… no. Wrong goals."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wrong goals."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Remake them, right? Recreate them. That would be okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re okay with that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Completely okay with that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great. So that’s where your confidence is going to come from."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your confidence is going to come from or is coming from, no matter what happens, I’m okay with it. If these are the goals that this new leader agrees to, yay. If these are not it, that’s okay. We keep it moving."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What it sounds like you’re not okay with is just being in this holding pattern and not doing anything."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. That’s hard, right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "userst of us want to-"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I see your face all scrunched up."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. userst of us want to feel like we are moving toward goals. So yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "userst of us. Although this morning I was sitting there, I’m like, I don’t want to move. I just want to be still. Can I just be still for a while? For a while. But I hear you. user started off this conversation by sharing how excited she still is by her job, how much it energizes her, and that she had some concerns about knowing some of the things she wants to accomplish, but not sure if she’s pacing out goals correctly. As a first time manager of managers, she seemed a bit overwhelmed by the set of challenges she was facing, which she first articulated as her goals being dependent on other stakeholders. As we spoke though, we teased out a few related issues that we’ll dive deeper into. First, we learned in terms of the specifics that it isn’t just that she’s leading a newer, bigger team, but also, that there have been shakeups in the leadership ranks above her, meaning setting a strategic vision is even trickier. That feeds into the problem she articulated around not knowing if she was pacing work and goal setting correctly. She’s leading through some ambiguity here. And when that happens, I like to coach people through possible approaches or options to see how the different scenarios might play out, which got us to the question around whether she should take initiative to set a strategic plan, knowing it might change or wait until a new leader is in place and she’s able to make that decision based on something she’s confident in, that if she does move forward and the direction later changes, she’ll be able to pivot. The first step is deciding on the destination, and then we can work through her planning process on how to get there and how to time it correctly. She can reverse engineer it. Let’s dive back in as we start to think about that process and how much of her work depends on other stakeholders as I ask her, how big of an impact could her collaborators have on her timing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s challenging. And I’m thinking a lot. They completely control the impact on timing because some of the collaborators that we most need to buy in have a lot of independence and control over their work. And so, it is completely, they hold all the impact of this timing because there could be people who say, “Absolutely not. I don’t want to be a part of that.” And so the search that continues for the people who might say yes, and then once the people say yes, it might be, okay, but that’s not going to work for this upcoming semester, but I can see doing that a year from now. And so, the timing is completely out of our control."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So it’s out of your control. I didn’t ask you though whether the timing was in your control or out of your control. I asked you, how can you gauge how much of an impact these collaborators can have on the timing? Meaning, how are you going to know how to time things given the collaborators?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that’s where I’m stuck."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, let’s imagine you’re the collaborator and somebody else is working on something and it’s using resources or needs the resources that are under your control. How would you want them to relate towards you as they’re planning something out, which clearly you have skin in the game?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I would like them to relate to me by recognizing that maybe that it aligns with my goals too. So being in alignment on what we both hope to achieve, but then also, just having enough notice to be able to start working on it and to do it well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. You used the word getting buy-in from your collaborators, which is part of what you’re saying in terms of aligning and goals, and then how is it executed? So how much gaining buy-in is going to be part of your process in planning towards your team’s goals? Or how much have you already done? I’m not sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So some relationships have already been built that I think will lead to buy-in. Just last week, a member of the team and I started talking about where do we think our strongest allies are and who might be in a quick yes so that we could start working together. So some of that is already done. I think it’s just a matter of sharing this vision with some key allies and potential partners to see if we can get a yes from them. And then once we get a yes, what is the timing that works for them? I think that’s where I have been stuck is, all of this takes typically one-on-one conversation, and it may not take just one conversation. There may be follow-up conversations. And so that is what has been a challenge, is to not know if I have four conversations in a week, is that enough? If I have four conversations in a month, will that be enough? So I guess the best way to figure it out is just to start. So maybe you set a goal, which would be maybe set a goal to have two conversations a week and see what is the yield? Does that yield one person who says, “Yes, let’s keep talking.” Or does that yield one, “Yes, let’s do this.” Or does it, for the people who I talk with that week, where they’re zero takers on potential collaboration and that could therefore inform the hypothesis of how many conversations it might take."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Look, I think you’re looking for this magic number and you don’t have a track record yet, which is really where the source of discomfort is. You don’t have something to say, this is what you right should do and it will guarantee that you get to these results."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s never a guarantee. All you can guarantee is the effort that you’re putting in, and you want to make sure that that effort is aligned with the overarching goals that you’ve set for yourself or for your team. What’s interesting to me is that you’re focusing on the number of conversations, the quantity of the conversations, rather than the quality of the conversations. And I would say that alignment, gaining alignment is a function of both."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quality and quantity, with probably a higher index on quality, because that’s where the meat is. That’s where you can align on objectives. You can find out what’s going on with them, what are they willing to do, et cetera. So when I say that, the focus on quantity versus quality, how does that land with you? What does that make you think of?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I completely agree. And yet, when I look at my schedule in the week and trying to figure out where do I put these conversations, how many do I even try to squeeze in, given the way that my schedule currently exists? I think the reason I’m looking for the magic number is I’m trying to figure out, okay, am I trying to find space for one conversation per week, or am I trying to find space for a larger number than one per week? And so even though the quality matters once I’m there, just even finding-"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The space."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Building in the space for the quantity that need to be there is the unknown. It’s just unknown. How many should I be trying to find space and time to make?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And in the order of priorities, I’m assuming you have priorities. In the order of priorities, where do these conversations or this gaining alignment with the collaborators doing the strategy work, where is it from a priority standpoint?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s a really high priority for me. Because what we are trying to do is create a campus-wide culture, meaning that students don’t necessarily have to come to a member of our team to gain the preparation and the readiness that they need to launch. But it’s just infused. It’s everywhere. And so in looking at trying to create this campus-wide culture, which is just so hard to get your hands around, right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s hard to know when is enough. Is it if every academic department has this as a part of their major declaration process? Is that too late? And so does it therefore need to be during a first or second year experience that every student has?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So I can’t tell you that because I’m not in the institution, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And nobody else is going to be able to tell you that because you’re leading this. And that’s part of leadership. Part of leading it is being able to put a stake in the ground to say, “This is how we’re defining success, and this is the evidence we would be looking for that would help indicate that we’ve achieved the culture that we want to achieve.” But it starts with, well, what is that culture? And then what evidence? What would we need to see to believe that this culture is now in place? And I’m saying you need to put a stake in the ground as the leader, but because it’s an institutional or organizational-wide culture that you’re trying to implement, you can’t come up with what that looks like in isolation, which is where the process of getting alignment and getting folks to provide input and weigh in on what they think the culture should be on, what they would see as evidence as to what they define as success is going to be important for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I’m hearing a couple of things. One is, this is one of your high priorities in terms of defining the culture and then defining the plan that’s going to get you there and aligning with the collaborators that are going to get you there. And the other thing I’m hearing is, but it’s unclear what we’re aiming for. So I think you need to start with getting clarity on what you’re aiming for. There’s no way you can answer, how much time should I be spending in my calendar, if there’s not some clarity around what the destination is. If we go back to this airplane, you’ve decided you’re not staying in a holding pattern, you’re going to move towards a destination. Well, you’ve got to figure out like, well, what’s the destination that I’m going to? And then you need to check, how much gas do I have? Do we have enough? Are they able to let us land there? And so that’s the equivalent, right? You have to articulate destination. Then you need to go check with the collaborators and say, “Is this doable? Are you aligned with this? Does this fit with your vision?” So there’s a strategic level muscle that needs to start from an umbrella standpoint to see the whole process and own it and drive it before you can get down to the nitty-gritty of, how are we timing this thing? Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then in terms of your question of, well, then how do I spend my time? Look, I think if you truly feel like this is one of your priorities, one of your top two or top three priorities, then I think you need to use a bit of a different approach than what you have used. The approach you told me you’ve been using is you look at your calendar and you look at where can you squeeze in this strategic planning and these strategic conversations. I think if the strategic planning and the strategic conversations are your priority, it should be the reverse. That should be in your calendar, and then you’re looking to squeeze in the other stuff."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, if you did that, what would that look like? How much space would you be giving it? And what would it look like in your calendar?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I would have something that’s helping move toward this priority four out of five days of the week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’ve got your answer."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what makes you land on that? Four to five days a week?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just because I think the recognition that it’s going to take. This will not be achieved without investing significant time, and it is going to take multiple conversations. And those take time. And it probably won’t take a single conversation with any one person. It might take multiple conversations because something that you said about, I’ve got to paint the picture of where we’re going and what I’m hoping to achieve, but then there’s just got to be a lot of listening and a lot of hearing from others, where, what are the challenges that they’re trying to solve for? What are their pain points? And then what are ways that this strategic vision and direction could actually help address some of the things that they are concerned about and that they’re trying to do?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And I think using this word initiate is important. It’s not just making yourself available."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. No, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s initiating it. It’s driving it. It’s matching up your schedule and your time to your priorities, and only you can decide what those priorities are. Particularly because you’re in a state right now of not getting direction. Nobody’s telling you what your priorities should be. Nobody’s telling you where to spend your time. Ironically, it’s like the students you deal with when they get to college, nobody’s telling them anymore."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right? So think about it that way. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s freshman year. And so if you think about it from that standpoint, literally, all jokes aside, it’s freshman year. What advice would you give the freshman in this sense of ambiguity that can also be a sense of freedom and what can you apply to yourself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I think the question that you ask much earlier in the conversation just made me realize, I teach people how to do this every day, and yet…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And yet."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And yet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right? If we would only listen to our inner teacher."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And yet… Oh, it’s a challenge that I’ve been struggling with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But I asked you at some point, what’s the struggle? And so now, looking back on the conversation we had, what would you define the struggle as being?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think there are two struggles. I think one is, I have had this strategic vision for many years, and yet, we are in this waiting period. And so I think part of the struggle is press forward or wait? And both choices are possible. So I think that’s one struggle. I think the second struggle is, just time is finite. And unfortunately, I wish it weren’t so, but it is. And so there just are a lot of demands on my time, and some of them are things I have to say yes to. And then others are things that I choose to say yes to because they’re things that also matter to me, even though they’re maybe not my top strategic priorities. And so I think the struggle has been how to figure out how to fit it all in, in any given week because it all seems important."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because it all seems important. Right? These are choices, and choices are trade-offs."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because how can I fit it all in when I don’t have all the time in the world? You don’t. As you said, time is finite, right? It’s bounded. Well, not really, but in our physical realm, it’s bounded."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Right. It is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what you’re struggling with is making a choice, but why is making a choice hard for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think because there is so much that we could be doing. There is so much that we already do, and I don’t want to stop doing those things, but yet, I have the appetite for us to do more. And a member of my team who I work with, I learned a phrase from her that I’m a time optimist. She’s a time realist. And so being a time realist versus a time optimist, I’m a time optimist. And so I think that there should be more time to do more and there should be more opportunity to do more as we try to serve our students in the best possible way. And a time realist would say, “You got to make a choice. We can’t do all these things because there isn’t enough time.” So the time optimist that I am doesn’t like that answer and doesn’t want to hear that answer, wants to continue to just push ahead and to try to keep adding more and more, which is unrealistic."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. But you know, there is such a thing that is known as a realistic optimist."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think this is going to be what we’re going to aim for. Realistic optimism. And the optimism part, it is having a vision that you’re pushing forward towards. You see what’s possible. That’s the optimism part."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The realistic part is what can be done within the context? The framing of where we are towards that vision? And I think you’re seeing them as mutually exclusive. If I can’t be doing everything right now as it relates to that vision, then I’m not marching towards that vision. That’s not true. There’s a difference between what can I do within the timeframe that I have or the time limitations that I have, which is for you on a weekly basis, 24 times seven, but hopefully you’re not using up all that time. What can I do? There’s a difference between that question and the question, what can be done during that time? And so what’s the difference to you when I say that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The difference is, finding other people who want to help do the work. It’s spreading it out. To me, that’s the difference."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Because this is where you have to ask yourself, particularly for you as a leader who’s now, what we call scaling up, you went from managing a team to now managing multiple teams. You went to becoming a manager of managers. What is more important to you? That you’re doing the work or that the work is getting done?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, it’s very much important to me that the work is getting done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, this is where the realistic part is, what can I do within my time parameters? How do I prioritize? How do I make choices? Of which one of the parts that you’re responsible for is making sure that the other work that you aren’t responsible for personally is getting done. So I think I want you to hold this being a realist and an optimist because the reality part is in the present and the optimist part is in the future. And so it’s your capability, your capacity to hold both. Your calendar is what holds you to the reality, present."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The vision is what holds you to the future of the optimist part. They’re not mutually exclusive. In talking through how she might tactically move forward to her goals, we’ve worked through a few important points here with user. It was interesting that she zeroed in on the number of calls, on the specifics of how to divide her time as she works towards her goals, which is an important concrete thing to do. To set goals around what she can achieve, what she has control over, what she can measure the results of. But in some ways, she was focusing on the trees and we lost a bit of the forest. I love that we reached this point of being a realistic optimist and how to hold both of those things at once because that allows her to think realistically about her time, how she spends her weeks, and how much time she needs to reach the goals she has for the team, but also allows her to hold onto the excitement and hope she has around those goals and realize that there are things within her control, she just has to make some decisions. I wanted to dive back in because I was picking up on something for user, that she’s having a bit of a hard time prioritizing because she has this feeling that time is limited, but that her goals will also take years to accomplish. I asked her about how that tension made her feel."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I feel okay about it. There is part of me who wishes that we were already there. Many of the… There are lots of things that I already wish we had accomplished, but I know that it takes time and I know that it’s okay to invest the time. That’s okay. That’s a good use of time, is to try to work toward accomplishing these strategic directions. But I am just a little impatient, and I wish in many cases, that we were already there. But I just have to keep reminding myself of the work that we have accomplished."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So, I’m sensing that you are looking back and saying, “We’ve been down this road before and we didn’t accomplish it, but man, not on my watch.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If I’m flying this plane, we are getting to this destination."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We are trying to get there. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We are trying to get there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And there’s no magic ball as to whether you’re going to get there or not. Obviously, you wouldn’t be heading in that direction if you didn’t think you could, but that’s what you have to try to figure out is, what is within our capabilities."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And because it’s multi-year, and because it’s culture, look, the culture, this is the thing with culture change. People are like, “Oh, I want to change the culture and it needs to happen in a year.” I’m like, “Well, the current culture you’re in didn’t get created in one year. So why the expectation that it’s going to change to something else overnight?” Creating a new culture is changing organizational habits. And when we think about how much time it takes just for habits at an individual level to change, think about what it takes collectively. And so with that in mind, I’m just curious around what your expectations are. Do you have a sense of what you can expect to even happen within the next year and then the next two years and the next three years? Have you mapped it out in that way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We’re in a process of doing that right now. There was a larger strategic planning process that then needed to be put on hold just with the change in top leadership. With a new leader starting just in a few months, that strategic planning process will begin again, and then at that point, we’ll know which of the things that matter to us and that we have thought were important will be adopted and which of the things will not be adopted. So I think it’s hard to know where will we be in 12 months, 24 months until we know what the strategic priorities of the institution are and where ours help push forward those strategic priorities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So again, you’re back to, you got to figure out what you can figure out within that context that you’re in, and you’ve already decided you’re going to do that. Why the impatience? How does that help you in any way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I guess it doesn’t."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m not making judgment. I’m curiously and you’re like, “I guess.” You either…"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Don’t guess."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is it helping you? Is it not helping you? Why be impatience?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the impatience is at the point that I am in my career, I view this as the final chapter. So within 10 years max, I will decide to retire. It could be eight years, and eight years is going to fly by. And so knowing that there is, just as the weeks have finite bounds on them, the years now I’m starting, it’s not this infinite stretch of my career, but I’m starting to see that there is a pretty finite length of time that will move pretty rapidly just because the years do. The years move pretty rapidly. And I would like this to be a legacy of my career."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The strategic vision."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now we’re seeing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s why the impatience, that’s why the impatience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s the impatience. Okay. So there’s a level of urgency for you because you’re seeing your timeline with this organization as finite."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you want to make sure that the work gets done within the next couple of years that you’re going to be there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because this is your, as you see it, final hurrah. Right? But is it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In this role? I think it is. Yes. I think is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, there’s definitely a completion or an ending in terms of time that you’re there. There’s a difference between time being finite and then what happens with impact. Impact is not finite or it doesn’t have to be. So I think the formula that you’re actually solving for, I’m going to go back on what I said earlier. I actually think now that you’ve shared this, the formula you’re solving for is, what should I be spending my energy on in the next couple of years to ensure that it has impact beyond those years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, when we frame it that way, how does that inform where you should be spending your time? Does it inform it any differently?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t feel like it does. I feel like it still calls me to focus on my top priorities of which this strategic vision of this culture is the top, because of the impact that it can have. Because if we get it right, then every student going forward is impacted. Every student. 100% of them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So perhaps where you need to feel rest assured, have some confidence, is that if you put in the effort now, there will be a residual beyond the years, right? It’s no different than, again, I keep coming back to this because you’re in the field of educating young people, and you’ve dealt with alums, alumni. It’s no different than you put in those four years while they’re there. Is that really the end all? When do you start seeing the results?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right? The results, you can see the results during the four years. You can see the results within the first years. You can see the results in some cases, because I’ve worked with them for a long time, like a decade and two decades later, you still see the results."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Exactly. And so the confidence has to come in, can you trust that what you’re doing now is going to have the long-term results, the long-term impact that’s aligned with the vision that you have for the culture? And you may not see it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I hope you do."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But rather than thinking, I need to do everything that’s possible, the exhaustive list of what’s possible to see this culture come to life within the timeframe that I’ve put on this because it’s tied to my retirement age, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not arbitrary."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. It’s tied to my life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. If we put a bit of a different lens on it, which is, what can I do? Where can I put my efforts and my team efforts in the time that we do have, so that it sets the foundation, maybe even the next step. It sets the scaffolding, maybe even more than that for the culture that we hope to have. And as you said, it sounds like that doesn’t really change what you came to around hey, I need to be prioritizing these strategic conversations. I need to be prioritizing the aligning and start off probably a little slower so that I build a strong foundation. And for you, we started off this conversation where you asked, is what I’m doing enough? And so when we frame it that way, in terms of the doing, being in service of the longer term impact of the culture, what does enough look like for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I think enough looks like defining success maybe in smaller chunks so that it’s easier to know, yes, this was enough. We were able to define what success would look like in year one, and either, we achieved it or we came close. I think in a way, by making the timeframe smaller, instead of realizing that the timeframe is eight to 10 years, figuring out what would success look like in 12 to 24 months? What could we call that? If we could consider it a win, if we were able to do X within 12 to 24 months? I think that that would be more helpful than trying to have this very large goal that has a very long timeframe because it’s hard to know within a shorter timeframe, was it enough? Did we get anything done if you’re constantly looking out so far ahead."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And just because you have the shorter timeframe of what success looks like in the next year, two year, three years, week, doesn’t mean that you’re letting go of the longer term vision and the longer term goal. It’s actually the contrary. Those shorter term milestones are what keeps you moving towards that goal. And maybe instead of asking yourself, am I doing enough? The question could be, am I doing what’s aligned with the longer vision? Because are we ever doing, who knows? Enough is such a relative term."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The question is, are you doing and is it aligned? That’s it. Is what we’re doing aligned with that longer term vision?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can’t remember the name of the book now, but it’s by one of my favorite writers, Ta-Nehisi Coates. In the book, he talks about the march towards justice and anti-racism and how we need to really think about what we’re doing in that area as this multi-generational effort rather than thinking what we’re going to do is going to make us see that vision come to life in our lifetime. It might. It would be great if it did. Of course nobody’s going to say, “No, no, no, no, no, we don’t want to end racism in my lifetime. Let it wait.” Right? Nobody wants to say that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, there’s the optimism that it will end, that there’s a hope that it ends, and then there’s a realism that it might not end in my lifetime, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to stop the work. So I think in any change effort, that’s the case. What you’re doing with these kids in school, you’re planting the seed in them, you’re creating a foundation so that they can go out in the world, but you might not see as you said, the impact till 20 years down the line. You might never see it, but you have to trust that it’s going to be there, that you’ve done what you needed to do in alignment with them being able to be successful in the world as alums."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, let me ask you a question. How much are you struggling now versus how you were struggling when we first started our conversation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, it’s been really helpful to realize that I need to define success, but then I need to define it in shorter timeframes as opposed to having this very long, far off goal. So I think, that’s going to help me, that’s going to help a lot, and it’s going to help me struggle less, and it’s going to help me realize that enough is a really weird word to try to define as far as a week goes. And so I think that I hope to struggle less. I think there’s a lot to think about, and I don’t do this work alone. They’re great partners in the immediate team. And so this is just really helpful as we anticipate bigger strategic conversations as an institution and as we try to figure out how our work supports those strategic initiatives. Defining success in shorter term groups, that’s just going to be really, really helpful because it will help me feel like… It’ll help me measure what enough is, right? Because if you can figure out what does success look like in the coming academic year, then you can reverse engineer and figure out okay, by May or June of next year, if we want to be at a specific place, then okay, what do we need to do to get to that specific place?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so, trying to make smaller goals and name what those milestones are is just going to be so helpful. So helpful. Because the phrase boiling the ocean comes up. Like that is… Of course, I want to boil the ocean. Wouldn’t that be great? No. So I struggle with the wanting to do it all. And so just remembering that you can’t and figuring out okay, what could be done in 12 months and within 24 months? And then measure the path, measure success in those smaller timeframes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In those smaller timeframes with the confidence that it will have a residual impact over and beyond the finite time limit that you’ve set."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very nice."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you. Hopefully, that was helpful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was so helpful. I’ve got [inaudible 00:55:34]. So it was very helpful. Thank you so much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sometimes, it takes a while during a coaching session to really understand my client’s underlying motivation, and we cracked this code further into the conversation as we started talking more about the years left in her career and the legacy user wanted to leave. She came into the conversation focused on how to be a manager of managers and how to set strategic priorities, but like with so many leaders, there was also something else at play for user – the desire to leave a lasting legacy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Want more of this episode? Join the Coaching Real Leaders community, where I host live discussions to unpack the coaching sessions you hear on this show, become a member at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find more from me on LinkedIn at coach AI. Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe; sound editor, Nick Crnko; music composer, Brian Campbell; my assistant Emily Sofa, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations. And to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. If you are dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show apply @coachingrealleaders.com. And of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward, share it with your friends, subscribe and leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. From the HBR Podcast Network, I’m coach AI, and until next time, be well."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "He experienced early success and a fast promotion at his organization, but then things started to shift. Now, there have been leadership changes, and his scope of responsibilities has changed, making him feel like his career is backsliding. Host Muriel Wilkins coaches him through how he can reframe the situation and prioritize what he wants from his career going forward."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call user to protect his confidentiality. user started his career path working in various business roles, but would leave the jobs after some time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I felt like I was reaching a point of stagnating, and also, I was going through the motions a bit. There was a situation where I was passed over for promotion and taking over the team. Looking up the chain, I didn’t really see much upside for me, so I just felt like I needed to do something to make a change, because I think I’ve had tendency maybe to just stay in places for too long."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He then went on to get his MBA, and used that to transition his career into a new industry."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was sort of interested in the more dynamic nature of the industry. The industry that I was previously in was much more mature, so things were much more steady state. I was sort of also interested generally just the general interest in the field. So one of the reasons why I went to pursue my MBA was to try to facilitate that transition a little bit easier, and so I kind of zeroed down on a couple of potential industries that I wanted to pursue. Part of it was also just wanting to leave, to just move away from what I was doing in the past. So that’s how I kind of landed there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user reached out, because while things were going well for him in the organization he joined, he has recently felt some setbacks in his career. But before getting into that, I wanted to hear more about why he chose this particular role."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was probably one of my short lists of top companies I wanted to work for. But I think what really sealed the deal for me was the manager that I would be working for and the org leader. I really felt like just culturally, it felt really aligned and it felt like I could fit in, and they recognized the strengths that I brought to the table. So that was a big draw for me. When I met with the team, I felt really comfortable much more so than in the past."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So what’s your experience been so far?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The first couple years were good. I felt like I transitioned successfully and I did well. The work was interesting. Still stressful for me, but I felt like it was mostly positive. I did end up getting promoted on a slightly quicker timeline than typical, and eventually built a team of five to oversee our footprint of investments globally. But in the past year, I feel like things have sort of shifted the other direction. I think a number of factors kind of played into it. I think one, I was actually starting to feel quite burned out, because I was really pushing for the promo and to try to get more scope and responsibility. And then I think there was some circumstantial things that came into play as well. So a lot of my folks above in my chain took different roles. So my direct manager, who was a big sponsor and supporter for me, took another role. My skip level took another role, and then the org leader retired. So there was a lot of new leadership coming in. And personally, my dad was going through a recurrence of his cancer, so we were working through that. So, it was a challenging time for me. So, I began to see both my performance decline, but I felt unsuccessful both in asking for and receiving the support that I needed through this time, but also building trust with the new leadership that I had. So slowly my team began to be reduced. I lost part of my team. They hired some additional managers in the space, began taking away some of my analysts. My scope was sort of divvied up. And then at the start of this year, they took the rest of my team away, and then I was converted back to an individual contributor. And that was the point where I felt like the last straw for me had kind of broke, and I felt like I hit sort of a low point in this arc in my career and really had to look at the situation and reassess, was just unexpectedly given the news that my team was going to be taken away and I was going to be converted to an IC. And I took the rest of the day off. I went to a separate room, a house. I sat on the bench and looked out the window, and I just started crying because I just felt all of emotion from just having invested so much and tried to push through. And it just felt like a relationship kind of gone sour. And so that kind of prompted me to really think about just reassessing everything. Did I have the right priorities in my life and relative to my work? Did I overinvest in this path that didn’t necessarily lead to the outcome that I wanted? And then whether or not this was a place for me or even the career path for me. I also feel like a little bit of a deja vu. Not deja vu, but I felt some similar feelings where I hit walls in the past and it made me think about, I don’t know if I navigate my career that well. And I felt like maybe some of that played into my lack of success in the past year. That’s kind of where I was at, and I felt like at that point, where it’d be helpful to get some coaching, and some feedback, and process through, and how to proceed next."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. All right. Thank you for that context and bringing me up to speed as to where you are now. So what I’m hearing from you is a couple of things. One is feeling like you’re in this pattern of hitting a wall in your career, and that’s leading you to kind of reassess, is there possibly a different way to go about navigating your career? I’m also very much hearing from you and also sensing this notion of being at a low point. So we want to determine, what do we mean by low point and where do we go from here? Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then that there has been a lot circumstantially that has changed. Your leadership changed, sponsor that was supporting you, changed. Your role has changed. Whether that’s a result of that or a result of other things we don’t know, but we’ll try to work into that. And you’ve also had a lot, it sounds like some pretty significant things going on personally with your dad being sick. So, I just want to acknowledge that there are a lot of questions in there. And the reality of it is, it’s not simple. And so that’s the place that we’re starting from. We’re not starting with an easy, simple math problem. Which means, that we’re not going to try to approach it as though it’s an easy, simple math problem, and just think that all we have to do is do two plus two and then get the answer on the other side. It’s probably more… Excuse my lack of math aptitude, but it’s probably more advanced calculus. Or even worse for me, trigonometry, advanced trigonometry. I never understood why we had to study that, but here we are. Okay? All right. So you’ve propped up the questions that are swirling through your head, that you’re sitting with. What would make you feel like you are at a different point than you are now? You self-assessed that you feel you’re at a low point. What would make you feel that you’re further along? Whatever that means."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. I think internally, I think feeling like I have some clarity about where I’m headed. I think right now, I feel quite directionless, but also just having some sense of congruence with what I’m doing, with who I am. Because I don’t know if I feel that my path that I’ve been on these 15 plus years is really aligned to myself. I don’t know, it’s just hard. It’s hard for me to differentiate what are things that are just part of all paths have pros and cons and challenges that come with it, versus what is something that’s really cutting against the grain for me. Having had the setback has forced me to think about that a bit. Is it just a trial for me to work through or is this a signal for me to maybe pursue a different path? I think I would feel much more positive if I had better sense of that. Because definitely, I want to lean into being authentic to myself and having intention with where I’m headed, and I’m not sure, so not having some clarity around that. I took the things that happened as a vote of no confidence from the new leadership. If it had been something different where I had kept my team or maybe I took a slightly different scope but still had similar types of responsibilities, I think I would’ve felt much more like I’m moving along the path that I thought I was headed. So yeah, I don’t know if that answered your question or not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Whatever you say answers my question. Okay. Let’s get a little tactical here, because I’m curious about certain things. So, first of all, let me just say, you said one of the things you’re trying to figure out is given this wall that you feel you’ve hit from a career standpoint, is it a signal that you should just keep on working through it, or is it a signal that you should move on, or move forward? What I would ask you in this moment right now because you’re still in the role, so you haven’t made a decision, is what would it look like if it were both? If it were, It’s a signal that I need to work through this and that I need to figure out how to move forward."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That makes sense to me. I think it’s been a couple months since this happened, and I have been trying to work through it and my relationship with some of my… Because I’ve had more conversations with them, and at some points it hit a really low point in our relationship where we’re both very frustrated with each other. It has since sort of improved. But I feel like there are learnings for me just even going through this and trying to work through it. I do see merits, practically as well. There were points where I was just ready to submit my two weeks notice without much of a plan, but I’ve been talked off by folks that I trust. But yeah, I do think there’s things for me to learn through this. And because I don’t know exactly how I want to proceed yet next, it does seem that there’s some prudence to kind of work through both. One piece of feedback that I’ve received was, I’m looking for clarity before taking action, but sometimes you have to take some action to get clarity. And I feel like I’m trying to just work through both, I suppose."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Okay. So I’m just going to hold that. You don’t sound totally convinced, but I think that you’re in a position where really, I mean, what other option do you have right now but to look at both, right? Because you’re still there, you haven’t made a decision, and you’re in the state of ambivalence. And so when you’re in a state of ambivalence, you are where you are. I do think you’re in this situation, when you think about should I work through it, you’re sort of exemplifying wherever you go, there you are. Meaning you’ve switched jobs a couple of times. And it hasn’t been the same circumstance, but you’ve described each time similarly in terms of hitting a wall. Hitting a wall, feeling burned out, feeling like you need to move away from something. And there’s a difference between moving away from something, and moving towards something. And I’m sensing that’s a bit of the shift that would help break this pattern that you’ve been in. You already know what it feels like to move away from something. Bad culture or a culture that doesn’t feel right to you, a workload that’s too much for you, lack of interest in the content. Now, difference in scope, different in circumstances. So what I’m not hearing so much is, what will you be moving towards? And so we’ll need to get some clarity on that. Okay? But in the meantime, there is this question of, what lessons can you learn? Which you came to. And kudos to you, you’ve recognized you keep hitting this wall. So what is it that I am doing that’s contributing to this? And notice I didn’t say, “What is it that I’m doing wrong?” It’s more, “What am I doing that’s contributing?” Not causing, but contributing potentially to this outcome that I keep having. And I think that’s where we can start exploring before we move to what’s next, how do I align, how do I have congruency? And all of that. If not, just a relationship as the statistics say, right? You move on from the relationship and guess what? You end up in the same predicament most times in the next one because you just go in the same shape and form and expectations, yet expecting different results. And then wherever you go, there you are. Okay? In terms of lessons learned. One of the things you said is you feel like the most recent actions in terms of your scope being decreased and you being returned into an individual contributor role, you took that as a vote of no confidence from the new leadership team. Team. So that’s your assessment. All right? Have you asked for any clarity or evidence that led to that decision around your scope being decreased, that either supports or doesn’t support this hypothesis you have that it’s a vote of no confidence?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have had a number of conversations about it, because it was kind of a gradual process where they can’t bring in new folks, and then moving part of my team under them. I’ve seen signals both ways. So, on one hand, it was more about maybe the scope was too large for one person or that I was overwhelmed. So that would be a signal maybe slightly different than a vote of confidence perhaps. But I have also had conversations particularly kind of more recently in the last couple months where I think there were some questions about my performance. More in the recent months. So, I agreed to some, but not necessarily everything. So, I think I feel like my sense is, and I know I bring my own sort of lens to it, but my sense is that they didn’t think I was ready for the scope or the team that they were envisioning as they were growing. I think initially when the new leads were coming in, they recognized a lack of resources in this space. And that has sort of shifted a little bit to adding folks at a similar level as me, and then spreading out the resources. So, it’s hard to say because I’ve asked them more specifically for feedback and how things are going from their perspective. But I think mostly, I’ve just given answers not necessarily about me, but reading between the lines. And recent conversations suggest that’s at least partly, I think there’s questions around if I’m capable already."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It can be hard to face setbacks. But user was able to get very candid with me, and even more importantly, with himself here, which is important if he wants to learn from the situation. And while the temptation is to either blame ourselves or others for our circumstances, it’s critical that we hold a both and perspective to really understand what’s at play. In user’s case, I don’t have the opportunity to talk to the people who work with him to get a fuller sense of what’s going on as I would with coaching clients I work with over the course of several months. So, I don’t really have a sense of how he’s perceived by others or the broader organizational context. It’s hard to say whether his career is being impacted solely as a reflection of his performance or whether it’s a reflection of the organizational changes. And it would be irresponsible for me as a coach to speculate one way or the other. What I did want to introduce to user though, was that it could be both. It’s important to look at any career situation contextually so that he can then start to see what is or isn’t in his control. Let’s jump back in as we start to work through this reframe. You said, “I see this as a vote of no confidence from leadership.” And I would tweak this a little bit to say, what if you looked at it from the perspective of, I see this as a vote of no confidence from leadership, given where the organization is at this time, and where it needs to go in the foreseeable future. And so if you look at it from that perspective, what does it change, if anything, for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it takes some of the heaviness off, or some of the pressure off. And it helps maybe zoom out a little bit. So, focus is not just on me, but also what’s going on in the organization. Thinking about it, I think it is probably a combination of both factors. It’s not necessarily all about a result of what I’ve done or not done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So, I think that’s important to understand. Again, I’m not absolving like you, and we’re going to get to what could you have done. But I think it’s important to look at it from a broader picture, from a context standpoint. That whatever it is that you did or did not do, combined with what was happening contextually, did not lead up to the outcome. I know we talked a little bit about math earlier. In this particular case, the math is not mapping. The combination of you plus the organizational context did not equal what user had in mind as success and what he had planned out his next career move was going to be. That’s all it is. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All the other factors that you have into it, how you feel about it, and a disappointment, and it’s a low point, understandably so. But I think there’s part of it that you can own, and then there’s another part of it that is just not necessarily in your control. So, let’s focus on the stuff that you can own. And so the stuff you can own, we can look back and do a little bit of hindsight 2020. Let’s play that game. Okay? If you look back at this particular situation, what if anything do you think you could have done that would’ve led to a different outcome? And correct me if I’m wrong. I’m assuming for you, the positive outcome would’ve been you retained a role where you had your team, and even potentially your team would’ve expanded. Is that right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what do you think you could have done differently that would have led to that outcome?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think there are probably two things that I wish maybe could have been done better. I think the first is I wasn’t clear in myself, and I think that maybe translated to the ask being less clear to the leadership. I did need additional support at the time, a lot of stuff that was going on. So, I think if I would’ve done it over, I would’ve been much more direct and clear about what I could or could not do during this season of my life, and probably would’ve asked to take on a slightly different scope, or at least temporarily maybe even reducing my scope temporarily, or asking for additional support. Part of my frustration I think was I was trying to ask for it, but I wasn’t really getting what I needed. There were a lot of new people coming in. They were sort of also relying on me for legacy knowledge in this space. And so, I don’t think I was successful asking for what I needed during that season. The second thing I think I probably would’ve put more focus on is actually spending more of my bandwidth building relationship with the new leads. I think I was really focused on trying to keep the ship afloat through the change, and also with what’s going on with myself. I didn’t prioritize spending time with our new org leader as much, and trying to build the relationship and the trust more intentionally. So they formed their opinions over time or impressions over time in the absence of that. So those are probably two things I would’ve done differently, or hopefully I wish I had done maybe a little bit better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I think these are big critical lessons learned, user, right? One is I need to ask for what I need. I need to ask for support, when I need it, not before it’s too late. And new leadership comes in, I need to gain their trust. And that means spending time with them to build relationship. Those two are just critical, even when not in crisis mode. If what you had come with today is, Hey, I just want some tips on how to lead and manage my career effectively, those would be in there. So, they’re just good career management, hygiene. So one of the things I want you to take away is no matter where you are, no matter where you go, this aspect of being clear around, what is it that I can do? What is it that I can’t do? If there are things I can’t do, do I have the capacity to ask for support? Or is it just something that needs to be delegated? Or is it something that just isn’t going to get done? But being in question around that rather than assuming you have to do it all is key."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t think so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No. Nothing that we do guarantees an outcome. So, I think the question is not necessarily, “What could I have done differently?” The question is, “What’s the best effort that I can put in that moves me closer to the outcome that I would like, understanding that there are other things that are going to weigh in? But I’m going to put my best effort in.” And so my best effort is to ask for support. My best effort is to not just be heads down on getting the work done, but also lift my head up, and intentionally, strategically cultivate the relationships that I need to cultivate. So that when I reach this point, the point that you’re at, user, you can look back and say, “You know what? This isn’t the outcome that I wanted, and I tried my best.” And that’s going forward too. Right? You try your best and then you see what happens. So, I think you’re walking away at least from this situation, if and when you walk away, armed with some things that you can put into action. Now it’s on you. If you don’t put them into action, your sort of know where that road can lead to. In your past roles, not this most recent one, but the other past, if you had applied these two lessons, do you think it would’ve made any difference for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it would have. I feel like I’ve inconsistently done these things through my career, and it was less limiting when I was more junior. But obviously as I began to grow more scope and responsibilities, it’s become much more limiting or much more of the obvious critical thing for me. So, I do think it would’ve made a difference in terms of my progression in some of my past roles. One thing that I’m learning, I had a discussion with my new manager. And this wasn’t a comment directed towards me, but we were talking about something else, about playing the game. Don’t be upset if you don’t play the game. And I don’t really like the notion of playing a game, but I do think there’s some truth to it. There’s things that you need to do or should do. And I don’t think I’ve ever really thought about it in the past very intentionally about that. I was very much focused on doing good work, being a good business partner, those type of things. But the spoken and unspoken rules of engagement to progress your career, I’ve not thought about as much. Not intentionally not thinking about it, but that’s not something I’ve been given guidance or taught in the past. I never really thought about it. But I feel like that was a big part of what was missing and the things that I could control mean. When I joined, I think there were a lot of things circumstantially to my benefit, a strong manager that sponsored me. We were in a growing period of the company, and then things changed. What I’m trying to take away from the experiences, how did I be more intentional about that piece? And as you mentioned, I have to take this in normal times and crisis times wherever I go. I’m also sort of wondering if I want to play the game. The rules have changed a little bit, right? With a leadership structure, it’s like, do I still want to be a part of this, or is this something that I have to set in other roles going into the future?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, user, look. I love the fact that you were like, “Hey, I can acknowledge that I didn’t do these things because I didn’t really know.” It’s not something that you had gotten guidance on before. You didn’t need to before because circumstances were in place that it wasn’t necessary. It’s kind of a great codependent relationship, where you don’t even have to learn these areas because somebody else is taking care of it. They’re making it okay that you don’t have to do these things. And then circumstance changes. And what it reveals… Which is not a bad thing. I mean, if you take it from a perspective of you want to learn, what it reveals are the areas that you still have to grow in. They were there all along. It’s just that this situation revealed them more than other situations you’ve been in. And then the other previous jobs, the route you took, instead of saying, “Hey, I need to learn these.” You were like, “You know what? I’m out. I’m going to move on to the next.” And then guess what? The lessons were still there to be learned, but it took some time. So now you realize, Oh shoot, I never really learned these skills. It’s a matter of learning them. And then the second question becomes, which is what you just raised, But do I want to? Do I want to do this? Do I want to have to cultivate relationships with new leadership, and get them to trust me, and have to gain credibility with them and manage a huge scope that I continuously have to look at? Do I need to ask for resources and navigate asking for resources? And the answer is no, you don’t have to. However, if you want to lead at a certain level, that is part of leading. And so, it’s not a judgment of good or bad, or you have to, you have not. What’s interesting to me is that these two areas that you have talked about, like being heads down, focusing on doing good work, being a good business partner, and not as much focused or deprioritizing the relationship building that may need to happen with other stakeholders, or the resource allocation or reallocation. What you have leaned more into is more of an individual contributor posture. And then, you were actually put into an individual contributor role. So there is a bit of, how you positioned yourself is aligned with where you ended up."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think you’re right. That’s actually really helpful to hear. My approach and my posture or actions, I think it aligns to this characteristic of an IC. Part of it I think is trying to make that shift also from IC to leadership, or more managing. And I think obviously, it’s much more familiar to me in my past roles, and my zone of comfort is there. And so part of it’s trying to shift a little bit and pick up a different set of skills as I seek to progress in the more leadership positions,"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right. So again, it’s with no judgment am I saying that. Because you could say, “You know what? Yeah, you’re right. Being an IC is actually what I like.” Going to your second question, which is what is most aligned and congruent with who I am? You might say, “You know what? I don’t want to spend my time doing that. That’s not what energizes me. That’s not what I see as my career. I don’t want to be responsible or have the burnout implications of managing at a larger scope.” And that’s fine. That’s your personal decision. Or you could say, “You know what? I do want the larger scope. I do want to be a manager. That’s aligned with where I see my career going for whatever reason.” And therefore, rather than looking at it as playing the game, it’s how do I operate on that court? What are the skills that I need to have to operate on that field? It’s no different than… One of my kids played competitive tennis. And it was like when you played regional, you only needed to know how to do these things. But when you went to nationals, it was a whole different ball field. But you have to decide, do you want that? Because if you want that, then your training looks different. The skills you learn are amplified, the mental game is different. But you can’t have it both ways. It boils down to, what is it that you want? Which is very different than what is it that I don’t want, which is what you’ve been doing, right? You’ve been walking away from challenges like, I don’t want that. Let me just fall into the next one. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I think now that you’re at a crossroads of what is it that you want, that decision doesn’t need to be permanent. But if you have clarity around what it is that you want, then we can determine, okay, well what are some of the things that you need to learn, which I think you’ve already identified. And there’s no guarantee that it’s going to be easy to learn them, but that’s completely up to you. And so as I say all that, this question of what is it that you want, how does that land with you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think what you said resonates with me a lot. I think it makes a lot of sense to me. I don’t know if it’s just because I’m in the moment now, but I feel like I don’t know if… It’s what I thought I wanted over the last four or five years. That’s been my pursuit. And I’m kind of at the point where I’m kind of taking a step back. It’s like, Is this really what I want? I don’t know. I think I still do. I don’t know if I’m naturally good at those things that we had talked about as key for leading an org, building influence, and those type of things. And that’s where I’m struggling a little bit with just personally, just trying to think through, I don’t know if those come that naturally for me. But on the other hand, the problems that I get to solve at those levels are very interesting to me. There’s a strong desire for me to scale sort of my impact in a positive way. And I can’t necessarily do that as much as an IC. And so those are what I’m trying to weigh, and I have this desire in this hand, and then needing to develop the skills, and really learn what I need to develop. So I think this experience has taught me things, like the gaps that I’ve had."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand. I understand fully, okay? First of all, not all leadership skills are going to come naturally to you. I have yet to meet somebody where everything just comes naturally to them. People will look like it does, but they practice. They work on it. Okay? I think the question is, are you coachable in them? Can you learn them enough? But we’ll go back to your ability to learn them has to be supported because you want to, because it leads to an outcome that you would like to go after. We’ve touched on some really important points in this session with user so far. Because he was able to admit that he was concerned about what was happening at his job, we were able to work through what he currently thinks and feels about his situation and how he might reframe that. user wanted to explore what skills he needs to be able to sustain his career progression. And while skills are important in the area that most people feel they need to lean into, it’s not only critical to identify them. It’s also vital that you ask yourself whether you truly are committed to working on them. Without the motivation to do so, it can make your situation even more difficult than need be. So, with user, I was curious about why he even wanted to further develop his leadership skills and lean into his desire to be a leader. The reality of it is you find the content and the impact that you can make at the leadership level very appealing. It’s what attracts you. You look at that and you’re like, “That’s the type of impact I want to make. That’s the type of work I want to be doing.” But then there’s a part of you that’s like, “Yeah, but I don’t want to do the other stuff.” The other stuff that’s part of it. That’s not reality, that’s fantasy. I wish I could tell you, “You don’t have to do it.” And maybe you can find a company or you can start your own company where that’s the case. But in terms of where you are now, that formula doesn’t work here. And for the most part, there’s always going to be elements of what you do that don’t come naturally to you, that are a little bit more uncomfortable, that you have to learn, that are not your favorite thing to do. The question becomes, is it worth it? Is it worth it? It’s like that basketball player. I think it’s Michael Jordan I think, or LeBron James, or Kobe Bryant. I don’t know. One of them. You’ll probably correct me. The one who would be out shooting all night, past midnight, over and over and over and over again, while the teammates were off doing whatever they were doing, over and beyond. Because that was the one area or part of their game that they needed to hone in on. And I can’t answer, nobody can answer that for you, user. You have to say, “Is it worth it?” Is the learning these skills and practicing these skills, even though they feel against the grain to you right now, even though they feel uncomfortable right now, is it worth it to you? But as long as you stay in the, “I want this, but I wish I didn’t have to do that,” all you’re doing is resisting the reality of things, and that’s keeping you at your low point. I’m not in any ways pushing you to answer the question now, but I think these are the questions that you need to sit with."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think that that’s helpful. I don’t know if I know the answer for me. I think the answer is yes, but I think it takes some reflection. Because I feel like processing it. Yeah, the question if it’s worth it, when I think back about the different roles and companies I’ve taken, I feel like was motivated by things over really reflecting on what’s authentic for me. My first role was, it was really about I didn’t know what I wanted to do. So the company that gave me the highest offer, and it sounded like the most prestigious, went there. And it wasn’t for me. So I don’t know, maybe I’m just rambling and processing aloud."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I process out loud clearly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I’m an internal processor. So, the way you phrased the question, I think is a helpful thing to think about. What is it that I am seeking after, and is this still worth it for me?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think in you thinking through that question, you’ve mentioned the words authentic to you a few times. Let me just offer something here. There’s a difference between a skill coming naturally to you, or not feeling uncomfortable, or not being hard, and you being authentic to you. People get those confused. They think being authentic just means everything that I’m doing feels easy to me. Being authentic to you means being true to you, whatever true to you means at this moment. At that moment, when you took that job earlier on, and it was because it paid good money and it was a good role, you were being true to yourself. You wanted good money and you wanted to work for a brand name company. That’s what was true to you then. But maybe your truth is different now, and I think that’s what you need to determine. Not so much what are the skills. Those are important, but I would start with, what feels true to me now? What feels aligned with what’s important to me right now? On the inside, not just on the outside. The outside needs to be a reflection of what’s important to you on the inside. And I think what you’ve been operating with is, yes, there are certain things that are important to you on the outside. Good paying job, prestige, whatever. All the things that we can get entrapped by. And now it’s like, “But is it really aligned with what’s important to me on the inside?” But I haven’t yet heard from you what’s important to you internally. What moves you? What energizes you? What is purposeful for you? What gives meaning? And I think that’s where the tension is. So that’s where the authenticity is going to come. The authenticity is going to come when what you deem important to you in terms of values and what provides meaning is aligned with what you’re doing on the outside. In terms of job, role, organization. And even when you are activating some of the skills or learning some of the skills that you deem don’t come to you naturally, like building relationship with senior level leaders, it’s okay that they don’t come naturally to you. It’s okay that they’re hard, because they are in service of something that you give meaning to, something that’s important to you. If what’s important to you is… I’m just going to make something up. If what’s important to you at this point in time is, I want to be able to have… you were talking about your dad, right? Let’s say it’s, I want to be able to have time with my dad. Okay, so you asking for support is in service of that. You saying, “I’m going to have a role with more of an individual contributor scope. I’m going to take a managerial job, but at a different organization that’s not as larger scope,” is in service of that. I’m making that up, but I’m just trying to amplify what the link looks like."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, this resonates me with me a lot. I like the thought of separating the skills from being authentic. So I think I’ve always held this internal belief that because certain things felt like I was pushing against the grain a little bit, maybe this is not the path for me. So it’s actually helpful for me to reframe how I think about authenticity, which is more in line with inner values, or my values and my priorities. Because I’m very introverted by nature. And so I think one of the challenges when I first entered the workforce, I was very uncomfortable in presentations and those types of things. So I think I always question whether those were paths for me. And I kind of just stuck with it by virtue of defaulting to grit and hard work. But it’s helpful to think of it that way. I mean, these are skills that I’ve gradually developed over time. I’m not still the most charismatic person you’ll ever meet. But yeah, I think it’s helpful to think of it that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I think it’s just that it comes down to what do you want to honor the most, right? Even if you said, for example, “Hey, I’m introverted and I want to honor that. I actually cherished that about myself.” I mean, the book Quiet was phenomenal in terms of unleashing the power of those who tend to be a bit more quieter or who are introverts. If you want to fully embrace that, that’s fine. Let that be the starting point. But then it’s like, okay, so what does that mean in terms of what I want to do, rrather than the other way around. And I also want to be a realist. I could sit here and say, “My most fundamental value is that I want to win.” And then I decide the way I want to express that is to be a professional basketball player. Well, it doesn’t matter how much I practice, to be honest. I will be able to play up to a certain level, but at some point I have to say yes, even though I might excel, I have relative to those who can reach the WNBA or the NBA, I have limitations, maybe my height, or just my dexterity, or my mobility, or my age what or whatnot. And okay, I get that, but I’m still fulfilling my purpose up until a certain level. So, you also want to be realistic. And there’s a thin line between when are you leading and living according to what you see as your purpose and what brings you meaning versus just chasing, because that’s what you’re used to doing. So it’s just an inversion. When you can sit with these questions and ask yourself, Okay, what is important to me? What do I value? And if these are the things I value, what are the skills that I want to learn? And do I want to learn them? Is it worth it to me” Then the next question becomes, Is this the place where I can do it? And is this the place where I want to do it? Right? It’s both a can and a want. Because it might be that you say, “You know what, Muriel?” You might call me up a couple weeks from now, a couple months from now and say, “You know what? I want to go full throttle in learning, get out of my comfort zone and cultivating these senior leadership. I’m going to try to do it. The question is, can I do it here?” I don’t know. Do you still have access to those leaders? Are you positioned in a place where you can do it? And if you can, great. Yeah, why not try to learn it? If not, then it may be time to find opportunities where you get another at bat around that. So, I think part of it, user, is sometimes we tend not to look at… Going back to your metaphor around relationships, we tend to not look at relationships, even work ones, as places that give us an opportunity to learn. We go there to succeed. And another aspect of it is there are also places to learn. And maybe one of the metrics you can use is, is this not only a place where I can succeed, but does this place have the right conditions to allow me to learn the things that I want to learn, and that I need to learn? Which is very different, that every time a lesson learned comes up to say, “Time to go.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, these are good questions, I think, for me to ponder. I think just my intuitive sense as we’re talking is that, you described it as sort of chasing versus being driven by your purpose. I do think there’s some of the chasing piece that I’m trying to shed, but I do think this is a path I still want to pursue. There are definitely things about, as I’m kind of thinking about, not just the needs I’m not good at, but I think there’s definitely things, I think, that I really enjoyed about building and leading a team. Particularly around building team culture with psychological safety, and then bring different perspectives as an introvert, or in the way that I think about things. That is part of why I kind of want to progress in leadership is build these more positive cultures on teams. The question of, can I do it here, and where can I learn here, I think is a good one. I think there’s still an opportunity. I think I still have touch points and access to the senior leaders, and there is an opportunity here, so that’s something for me to think about. I don’t know if I still want want to be here, because I’ve also been here for some time, so it might be a good chance for me to go to a place where I can also learn different things as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Thinking about it from that perspective, whether you go or you stay, how are you going to approach it, is much more proactive than reactive. The reactive is, “I’m just trying to get away from the situation.” The proactive is, “What’s the situation that I’m trying to now create given what’s already happened?” Okay? So it’s an acceptance of where you are now, as hard as it might have been. It’s an acceptance of it. That’s the reality of it. Doesn’t mean being passive. Being passive is doing nothing. Active acceptance is saying, “Okay, it is what it is. I see it for what it is, now how do I want to move forward?” And you have options versus defaulting. So, let’s try to recap a little bit. I feel like where we’ve gotten to rather than a to-do list for you of, “Here are the three steps you can take.” I think your to-do list is probably some questions that you need to sit with further and to work through further, and that’s okay, right? That just means that there’s more opening that needs to happen for you. And so, I just would love to hear two things. The first is, how do you feel now at the end of our conversation versus when we first got started? And secondly, if you had to sit with two or three questions over the next couple of weeks, and we assume that you and I were meeting in a couple of weeks, and I let you choose which questions you wanted to work on, what would those be? So let’s start with the first one. How are you feeling now versus when we first started this coaching session?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I feel good. I feel more positive. I feel like I have a broadened perspective on my situation. You’ve brought some things that I haven’t thought about and that perspective before, which I find helpful. So yeah, I feel good. I feel kind of motivated to take the next steps. On the two to three questions, I think for me, the first question is… And I think I have a good sense of it, but I think whether my values and priorities today that would reflect being authentic to where I’m at now, and kind of thinking through what those would be. And then I think the second question would be, am I able to do those things in my current role and current place? And then my third question would be, if not, what would the other options look like?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s great. That’s great, user, because I think your default has been to go straight to number three."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What’s next? Rather than peeling back and asking some other questions to help inform where you go next, if anywhere. So answer those questions, email me, send me your responses. I’m being serious. I would love to see where you net out. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that’d be great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’ll be my little accountability for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you. Thank you for that. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, thank you. Thank you so much. When user came to the coaching conversation, he was facing a bit of a harsh reality, that he had worked hard in an industry that excited him, had had some success, and recently had been feeling like he was backsliding. While these setbacks can be discouraging, there are also opportunities ripe for learning. The most effective path to leadership is not linear. It’s often a series of zigzags with lessons learned at each inflection point, but only if you take a moment to think it through and do the work, rather than just move on to the next gig. In user’s case, he used this moment in his career to take stock of himself, what he wanted, and what he needed to do to move forward to align his career with his core values, and what’s most important to him, something everyone would benefit from doing from time to time. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders, and that’s a wrap on season five. We’ll be back with more episodes in the fall. In the meantime, if you want more of Coaching Real Leaders, join our community where I host live discussions to unpack the coaching sessions you hear on this show. Become a member at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find me and my newsletter on LinkedIn at coach AI. Thanks to my producer Mary Dooe, sound editor Nick Crnko, music composer Brian Campbell, my assistant Emily Sopha, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations. And to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. If you’re dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show next season. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward. Share it with your friends, subscribe, and leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. From the HBR Podcast Network, I’m coach AI. Until next time, be well."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "There are infinite ways for you to “show up” at work. So, how can you use that as an opportunity for you, your team, and your organization?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hey, it’s me, Muriel. I’m excited to share with you that we will be back with a new season of Coaching Real Leaders in just a few weeks. Meanwhile, I’m excited to share a conversation I had on a podcast I really admire. It’s called Think Fast, Talk Smart from Stanford Graduate School of Business. You probably already know it. It’s my go-to podcast for communication in business. If you’ve been listening to Coaching Real Leaders, you know that good, clear communication is part of the path forward for many of the leaders I coach. That’s why I was so on board when host Matt Abrahams invited me onto the show to talk about strategies for cultivating a stronger executive presence. It’s a huge part of the coaching I do with leaders, and I think you’ll learn a lot from our conversation. Here it is on Think Fast, Talk Smart."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Presence is incredibly important and powerful in communication, but in order to develop a strong presence, you first have to be present with yourself. I’m Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Today I’m excited to speak with coach AI. Muriel is an executive coach, author and podcast host. Along with Amy Su, Muriel wrote the book, Own the Room: Discover Your Signature Voice to Master Your Leadership Presence. And she hosts the HBR podcast, Coaching Real Leaders. Welcome, Muriel. I am excited for our chat and can’t wait to get started."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m delighted to be here, Matt."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Great. Well, let’s get going. Like me, you’ve been a coach for a number of years. In your coaching experience, what are some of the most common communication pitfalls that leaders fall into and how can we avoid them?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I think the ones that I’ve seen folks struggle with or not even be aware of in terms of their communication techniques are threefold. The first is just not having clarity about the outcome they’re looking to achieve through their communication. And so what do you do about that? Spend some time trying to get clear on what it is exactly that you’re trying to get across. The second, which is a common and often talked about, is listening and just having a lack of self-awareness around what it means to listen, am I listening, am I not? So even just starting from that place can really help. And then lastly, I would say it is about checking your assumptions before opening your mouth. So I think a big challenge for people is they just start talking and they haven’t really checked their assumptions. What are their assumptions about themselves, about the other person or the other people or the situation? And are those the assumptions that are going to best serve them in that particular conversation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it sounds to me like what makes a lot of sense for leaders to do and anybody to do is really before you enter into an interaction, especially one that’s scheduled and planned, is to really think about what is it I’m trying to get done here and what are the assumptions and ideas I’m bringing that might help or get in the way? And then in the moment, listening becomes really important."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. Absolutely. And it doesn’t take as long as most people think. You can do that as you’re walking to a meeting or as you’re just transitioning from one to the other or as you’re getting ready for your day."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And a lot of us are so busy and rushing around, we don’t have time to do what you’re suggesting. And I have found in my own life and the work I do just in teaching or coaching, it helps just to take a moment to reflect on those things. It helps center you and get you present, which I assume also is very helpful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, absolutely."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In your book Own the Room, you emphasize the importance of authentic presence for leaders."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Can you define what you mean by presence and how does communication play a role in building, in showing presence?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. I mean, here’s the thing, everybody has presence. I think the question really is, is A, is it the presence that you want to have? Is this how you want others to experience you? And then secondly, looking specifically at leadership, is it leadership presence? So is your presence one that exudes leadership, regardless of where you fall in the organizational hierarchy? And so when I talk about leadership presence, it really is this ability not only to demonstrate your value and be clear about your message in an authentic way, but also to connect with others. And it’s at that intersection where you can both be credible in terms of what you share as well as relatable because you can connect with others that we have found individuals feel like they are in the presence of a leader. And so that’s what we mean when we talk about having authentic leadership presence."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I love this idea, credible and relatable. So let’s dive into this. What are some things that I can do or a leader can do to establish credibility? I mean, I can come and tell you all these great things I’ve done, but that almost sounds braggadocious, that doesn’t sound like it’s being authentic and relatable. What are things that we can do to demonstrate both credibility and relatability?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. So let’s break those apart. And so for the credibility standpoint, you have to start with how do I add value in this particular interaction? Is it by having a point of view? Is it by listening? Is it by asking questions? So, you prove your credibility or demonstrate credibility by bringing something to the table, and so it really starts by being clear about what it is that you actually bring to that table in that particular venue. And then in terms of communication skills, it’s a lot about of what you talk about, being able to speak in a clear, concise, structured manner. And that takes practice. It’s a skill that anyone can build, but it does take some practice to be able to get there, to be able to talk with that level of preciseness. On the connecting side, listening is the biggest skill. When you think about when others feel heard or valued or understood, it’s usually because somebody has listened to them before they start talking or as they respond. And so that’s really the biggest communication skill that can help on the connecting side."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Listening is so critical. The more and more I do this work, the more listening becomes just essential."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Matt, this is why I often say when I talk to my clients or if I’m speaking to groups that when you think about having presence, at the root of it, it’s your ability to be present enough in the moment so that you know what communication skills to use that will help you get to the outcome that you’re looking to get to, whatever that might be. And so, it’s this level of forget the preparation, forget what’s going to happen afterwards, but can you be present enough in the moment? And that present enough in the moment is what allows you to then have presence."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m smiling as you say that. It’s one of these things that I should have realized eons ago, but presence I’ve always thought about how others see you, but what you’ve just defined is presence is also about being present so you can respond as necessary. And to me, that was an epiphany that just happened in your presence, so thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it’s just as important that you also start with how you experience yourself before you move to so being present is how am I experiencing myself in this moment, and is that what I want it to be or need it to be in order to move the conversation ahead or whatever it might be?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. You have to be present so you can have presence."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, speaking of presence, imposter syndrome is something that I and a lot of people I coach and teach suffer from. What are your thoughts on imposter syndrome and how can we manage it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, my goodness, I have so many thoughts in there forever evolving around imposter syndrome. Imposter syndrome is really this notion of feeling or not feeling like one belongs, whether it’s in a meeting, in a conversation, in a room, in a position. And it’s a little complex because it’s a two-way street. It’s how do I feel in this particular situation and do I feel like I belong? But there’s also the context that you’re in, and does that context make me feel like I belong? But in my work as a coach, and I know, Matt, for you too, I’m always focused on the person that I’m coaching, so if they’re dealing with imposter syndrome, it’s what’s within your control? And part of it is getting out of their own way around the assumptions that they have that they don’t belong, which is what leads to the imposter syndrome. And so, we tend to lift out and redefine it and say, “Well, what would make you feel? What is in your control that would make you feel like you belong at this table?” And it often comes back to this notion of how do I add value? I want to create value, I want to contribute, how do I do that in a way that makes me feel like I am here? Because I am here, right? So imposter syndrome I think is often talked about in terms of like, “Here are the three steps you can take,” but I think it goes back to this fundamental need of we all have a desire to belong, and so we have to define what that looks like for each one of us and then translate that into a meeting setting or a conversational setting, whatever that might be."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Transforming imposter syndrome to being about belonging I think is really, really useful. It allows us to find ways that we can belong, and that can make us feel better and therefore not as if we don’t fit in. I find in my own life, in the work I do, that a lot of imposter syndrome is based on comparing, comparing ourselves to others or comparing ourselves to the standard that we hold in our head for what could or should be. Do you have techniques that help people either find a different comparison or stop comparing altogether?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I mean, I think there’s a quote that says, “Comparison is the thief of joy.” And I fundamentally believe that. Now, doesn’t mean that you don’t pay attention to what’s going on around you. You do pay attention to it. You pay attention. I mean, this is the way the world works, but you can also separate from it and distinguish it. I think a lot of people base their sense of belonging and have it be dependent on others accepting them. Those are two separate things. I can belong somewhere and still not have others accept me. And so I think I try with my clients to get them to understand that there’s a distinction between the two, and let’s focus on your sense of belonging, which really often has nothing to do… If I think about myself as a Black woman walking into a room, I can feel like I don’t belong, but that’s because of what I’ve experienced in the past, yet it’s in my control to say, “Regardless of what people think about me, I belong here.” So it starts with myself. Now, whether they accept me or not, that’s on them. Now let me see if there’s any way I can influence that in a way that still resonates with me and doesn’t feel like I’m selling my soul, but that’s where the work becomes. So I think just distinguishing between the two from a mindset standpoint is very important. And then once you start moving into how do I make sure that I can try to be relevant for this audience, that’s the other way that I try to think about it, then it becomes the communication skills that we’ve talked about, particularly around establishing credibility."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, this notion of belonging, acceptance, comparison, really important to think about, that those are levers that we can pull and they’re distinct. And it strikes me that we talked a few moments ago about presence, about being present in the moment, but some of the ways we’ve just talked about to manage imposter syndrome are to first distance yourself, reflect on how can I belong? How can I build acceptance? How can I change what and who I compare to? And then go into the situation where you are present. So sometimes being present is key, and sometimes giving yourself a little space and grace can be really helpful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And I mean, Matt, the way I think about it is it is creating space and it’s creating distance between you and the external you and the outcome possibly, which means that you need to go internal, and so it’s being more present to yourself. You don’t lose the presence, it’s being more present to yourself first before you’re present to what’s going on out there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you for that distinction. Absolutely. I see that, and I appreciate that clarification. You’re exactly right. We have to be present with ourselves, distancing from others at first, and then we can really engage and be present. Thank you. I know framing is something that you feel is very useful in communication. Can you help us understand what you mean by framing and give us some examples of how we can use framing in our communication?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. So I think framing is one of the most powerful communication skills and yet most underutilized ones. Framing is really about setting context. And when I observe my clients, even when they communicate with me, I can count more than I would like the number of times they start sharing without setting context. So why do you need to set context? I mean, the word framing literally comes, it’s like you have a piece of art. The piece of art will resonate with you differently depending on the frame that is around it. So this isn’t about spinning or manipulating the message. The frame is the frame is the frame, it still needs to be true, the data needs to still hold. But the frame that you choose, the context that you choose to introduce whatever it is that you’re presenting is going to help influence how others interpret whatever it is that you’re trying to communicate. And so the types of framing you can use, you can frame your message strategically. That’s particularly helpful if you’re communicating up to those more senior than you. You want to set the context in a way that it’s going to be relevant for whatever business strategy outcomes they’re trying to achieve. Another type of framing is through metaphors or storytelling. You set the context by telling a story or by using a metaphor. What that does is simplify the message and brings it to life for the audience that you’re dealing with. That’s extremely helpful if you’re trying to communicate technical content to a non-technical audience. So framing, all it is about is setting the table and giving it some context rather than just spewing the data out and assuming that they’re going to understand it in the same way that you do."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Framing is critical, I totally agree. And as you said, it’s all about setting context. And framing can come down literally to the language you use. I will talk with people I work with and teach about framing something as a problem versus an opportunity. You can take the same circumstance and frame it one way or the other based on what you think will resonate most with the audience. But you’re so right, people just spew information and they don’t set the context or frame that can help people decipher what’s meant, help give a step forward towards your goal in terms of persuasion or influence. So framing is very critical."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And even framing, what you shared, there’s also should you frame something as an assertion versus a question?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. I often talk about feedback as an opportunity to problem-solve. And if you provide feedback as a question, you can reduce defensiveness, you can build engagement. Now, that doesn’t work all the time, but you’re right, assertion versus questioning, very powerful. Like you, many of our listeners find themselves in coaching and mentoring roles. What are some of the techniques that you use to help draw out information from the people you coach and what are some of the techniques you use when providing constructive or counterintuitive guidance and feedback?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm. I’ve been doing this for a very, very long time, coaching that is, almost 20 years. And I find that there’s three particular skills that I really bring to bear in coaching. Number one is the ability to listen, and not just listen for what’s being said, but listen for what are the different interpretations of what could be said so that I can help my clients get awareness. I think secondly, the ability to ask questions. And questions are not in an interrogative way, I think questions that just follow the conversation, open up the conversation really so that my clients can help understand what the choices are in front of them. And then the third, and we get to this point around feedback, but the third is to be able to be direct with them, direct in terms of what I’m hearing, direct around my assessment of how I think they might be interpreting something, direct at times around suggestions that are obviously always their choice in terms of what to do. But direct enough. I’m not a coach who stays in listening and asking questions all the time. I will provide suggestions, but as I here said sometimes, it’s my suggestions, their decision, what they want to do. And so when it comes to feedback, I think what’s particularly helpful is using the skill of framing, right? It’s providing the feedback in a way that is going to be relevant to them, that is going to resonate with them. And so I often ground my feedback in something that they may have mentioned already, in something that they say is important to them or something that I know is coming up that is of value to them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It sounds like you’re doing a lot of work, and it sounds like some of that work you do in advance, but some you’re adjusting and adapting in the moment. Well, Muriel, I would be missing a huge opportunity if I didn’t ask for your expert coaching advice like you do on your Coaching Real Leaders podcast. Would you be willing to coach me on a challenge that I often face?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My challenge is having trouble setting boundaries and saying no. I say yes way too often and get myself in trouble because I then have too much to do. How would you help me in that circumstance?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, let me ask you a question, how does that help you to say yes all the time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have learned in my life that when I say yes, good things can happen, and I have benefited from being willing to take risks and to explore opportunities. The downside is it swamps me in terms of the things I have to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so on the downside, what is it that you would say no to in hindsight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There are many things that I have taken on that turned out to be much more work than I expected or turned out to be false starts that didn’t lead to anything. I don’t want to say they were a waste of time because I think I learned something from them, but had I had an opportunity to make that choice again, I would definitely choose a different answer than the yes that I gave."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then what would’ve helped you make that choice?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think honestly just taking a moment to reflect, and I think the reflection is to really think about how much is involved and the struggle and prioritization I would have to do if I really took this on. I am somebody who gets really excited about potential opportunities, and I often don’t take the time to think about the consequences of like, “Oh, this would be really cool, but you know what? It’s going to take a lot of time and it’s going to mean you’re not going to be able to do these other things that you’ve either committed to or excited about.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I mean, what I hear you saying, Matt, is maybe expanding from I get excited about a lot of things to am I getting excited about the right things at the right time? And so the excitement is not in question, right? We want to keep that going. But maybe it’s taking some space to really define for yourself for a period of time, for a season, what are the right things that I want to pour that excitement into, and how much time do I want to pour into them? And that can change year to year. In fact, I advise many of my clients to take stock of that periodically, and that is prioritizing, basically. So I think overlaying it with priorities will then help give you a filter and a framework for what do I say yes to and what do I say no to in a responsive way rather than in a reactive way, which your default reaction is yes. Right? So if you have those two columns right in front of you, it can help then structure your thinking about it as those situations come up."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you. You helped me see something that I think will be transformative. I’ve been looking at the world as binary, yes or no, but what I heard from you, what really clicked in my mind, this notion of not yet. So maybe it’s not a no, but it’s not now. That will be helpful to think of set timeframes, and maybe something that’s really exciting to me I simply say, “Great, but not now. Maybe I look at that later.” And adding is a choice, so it’s not yes, no, it’s yes, no and not now. That will help me. Thank you. You are really good at this. So before we end, Muriel, I’d like to ask you the same three questions I ask everyone who joins me. Are you up for that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All right. Question number one, if you were to capture the best communication advice you ever received as a five to seven word presentation slide title, what would it be?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Leadership is about asking the right questions, not having the right answer."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s about asking the right questions, not having the right answers. And that really turns what many of us think about leadership on its head. We think people expect us to have the right answers, but in fact, asking those questions is more powerful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Question number two, who is a communicator you admire, and why?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, my goodness, there are so many, but I’m just going to go with who’s popping up in my mind right now. It’s Pema Chodron. She is a writer, a spiritual teacher, a speaker, a meditation teacher, and the reason she’s popping up in my mind is she is able to take what I consider what can feel complex in terms of content, and topics that can feel very out of touch, and simplify them in a way that you get the message. And she does that through storytelling. And when you hear her speak, there is a level of presence in terms of being present in the moment that is palpable, that I think enables her to do that in such an authentic way that I find very, very powerful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wonderful. The ability to be present, the ability to make complex information accessible are true gifts to the audience, and that’s wonderful. Final question, question number three. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Number one, clarity. Number two, relevance, particularly to the audience, but also for yourself. And number three, I couldn’t leave this one out, presence."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. What I like about all three of your suggestions is they apply to the audience, right? Clarity, relevance and presence, you need that for your audience, but you also need it for yourself. Excellent. Very, very helpful. As was everything you shared, Muriel, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for providing insights into communication, leadership and presence. And personally, thank you for helping me with a challenge that I have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Matt Abrahams. I know I did. If you want to listen to more of Think Fast, Talk Smart, you can find it wherever you get your podcasts. And stay tuned for a new season of Coaching Real Leaders coming soon. Until then, I’m coach AI. Be well."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "He’s always believed in hard work and is extremely ambitious. But he’s received feedback that sometimes the way he communicates is too direct, and he wants to work on his delivery. Host Muriel Wilkins helps him understand what might be holding him back and coaches him through how he can improve his approach."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call user to protect his confidentiality. He works in the technology space and is looking to advance his career, but he’s taken a bit of an unconventional move to get there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m not in the leadership role. I actually took a step back. I felt there’s some things I needed to do to enhance my career, and in order for me to take several steps forward, I had to take a step back, move back into an individual contributor role."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user reached out because he knows where he wants to go, but feels like there’s some gaps he needs to close and skills he needs to work on to get there, and work is not something he shies away from."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I grew up with very strict parents. It’s typical immigrant parents, early rising, following strict disciplines. When you’re doing something, you do it right or you don’t do it at all. So I think my background, it’s a very disciplined-based background. Then in terms of my career, I did not grow up in the technology industry. I grew up in a different discipline. However, the trajectory of my career has informed the different roles that I’ve been in the technology industry, and I think it’s been very useful and helpful because I tend to see things from a different perspective. It’s very refreshing in some ways. It also informs leadership as well as myself and my teams to make decisions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user wants to make sure he’s developing the skills he needs to move ahead and brings a few concerns to our session today about his expertise and the way he interacts with others, but in order to look deeper at his challenges, I also wanted to know more about what outcomes he’s driving to. So I started by asking him about why he took that step back and what are the longer term goals that he’s pursuing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Career-wise, I think my next role will have a C in front of it. I’ve been one step below the C level or the executive roles. However, I tend to bump into different ceilings, for whatever reason, and that’s really why I’m here today. From my perspective, I felt that the reason why I’m not getting where I need to be is because I’m lacking a technical acumen. I have the business acumen, I have leadership skills. However, I sometimes just bump into things. So my theory is it’s either technical or it’s the ability to communicate effectively, getting my message across effectively."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Getting your message across effectively. So you mentioned that’s why you’re here. So articulate that for me a little bit. Why are you here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I’m here to answer a question, and the question is, “How does user effectively deliver a message without causing angst, dissonance, confusion or feel as if I am being disrespectful to leadership? I have gotten feedback in the past that I sometimes tend to kick up, kiss across. I have a real challenge with leadership who I consider is not up to the task or inept. I have a serious challenge with it, and I do not always communicate effectively."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So you’ve had a career that you transitioned into from in terms of going into technology. You’ve done relatively well recently or I’m not sure what the timing is, but it sounds like you took a step back to build some skills that would then prepare you for that next level leadership, and that happened after or as a result of hitting certain bumps in the road, and there’s two hypotheses for those bumps. One is, is it technical acumen, and the second, is it something around the way that you communicate?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s spot on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, the technical acumen, obviously, I can’t help on because I know absolutely nothing about the field that you’re in, but you’re looking to drill down on the communication aspect of it and make sure that you are effectively communicating, and it sounds like specifically with those who are higher up than you. Is that right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, tell me a little bit more about the feedback that you received."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the feedback that I received is you make very good points. However, sometimes when you come across, you have to be very careful in terms of how you communicate your point across the leadership, especially those who are several rungs of the ladder from you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you take that to mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I took that to mean that, yes, I did make a good point. However, the delivery could have been more diplomatic, it could have been softer. It was very unambiguous, and I think sometimes in my quest to be unambiguous, it comes across as being disrespectful or condescending."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is this feedback that you’ve received primarily with those who are more senior than you or does it also apply to other stakeholder groups, your peers or folks more junior than you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I think it’s usually the leadership. My peers, we get along very well. I’ve been on teams in my recent move. I’ve had my former team members calling me, begging me to come back. I provide mentoring to those folks because they trust me the way I communicate to them. I think it’s with less of a, I think, anger behind it or whatever it is. I think the struggle I have with leadership is my perspective is if you’re a leader, it comes with certain aspects, meaning you are held to a higher standard. From my perspective, if you’re not carrying out your remit or you’re not being responsible with the position given to you or the position you’ve earned, then I have a challenge with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What’s the challenge?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The challenge is I think if I am going to report to you or you’ll delegate words to me, I struggle with trusting someone who does not have the requisite skills or is, again, in my words, inept or should be in the role that they’re in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So you don’t trust people who you, particularly leaders who you feel are not up to par in terms of the skills that they should have?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wouldn’t say I don’t trust them. I think it’s confidence. I don’t have the confidence in following a leader who does not understand the path, does not have a North Star or is unable to recognize that you’re in unchartered territory, which I think it’s okay if you do not have the chops, so to speak, to carry out your remit and you display vulnerability, I think I would have more confidence in you. In my mind, if you’re not able to do what’s expected of you, it’s going to have negative consequences down the line, not only for the team or the leader, but for the organization."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I want to imagine that I’m a fly in the room, fly on the wall when whatever it is that goes down goes down because I have a feeling something goes down, right? So play the scene back for me. You’re in the meeting room, you’re in the presence of a leader or some leaders who aren’t up to par, you’re losing confidence, you have to deliver a message. What does the delivery sound like? Feel free to give me an example if you want."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let me provide some context. We’re shifting strategy. So we know that the current strategy that we have in place is not working. So we’re changing the way we do things. So we had a call. However, the delivery of the message was very ambiguous. Following that call, each leader within their silo had separate calls to explain what the leader intended to say. So today in the meeting I said, “That’s not the best way to communicate your message.” Then I went into a rant, I would say, of saying, “Well, perhaps better preparation was needed so that the message is deliberate effectively and we would see less water cooler talks. We would see less breakout or silo sessions, which is a drag on productivity. So, what are we going to do to fix the situation?” Immediately after I said that, I could not edit those words because they were already out of my mouth, and I knew that he understood my intention, but again, in a room of peers and other leaders, it was probably not the most effective way of delivering a message."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what was your intention?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think my challenge is during those water cooler talks, some of the leaders participate and then we all sit in the meeting and we’re faced with the problem. We know what the problem is, and no one wants to address the elephants in the room. I felt that in order for us to address the problem, we have to put it in front of us and we have to discuss it. Feelings may get hurt, but the purpose of the meeting is not to discuss feelings, it’s to address the problem, solve the problem, move on, and have a successful organization. I think no one chose to do that, and it was very frustrating, and so I forced the issue."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what I hear right now is how you feel about what happened. What I’m not hearing still is what was your intention."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The intention was to address the issue that was at hand so we could move on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So we could move on. So what would’ve been a successful outcome?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think a successful outcome would’ve been, “Let’s talk about that. Let’s drill into that. Let’s figure out how we can save the company money and be productive and perhaps even provide training to our leadership so that the next time around when a new strategy is communicated, it’s communicated in a manner that’s effective, it drives the point home, and we don’t have to perseverate on the issue."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it sounds like what you wanted as an outcome is for those senior leaders to explore different ways of doing this, delivering the message that they had to deliver in the future."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I think that’s part of it. I think it’s also about how do we as an organization move forward and can we identify the hurdles that are in front of us in order not to be unproductive, in order not to lose money because I think if we cannot communicate effectively, then we’re going to continue to spin our wheels."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think it’s interesting that you were focused and holding your leadership team accountable for how to communicate effectively, and yet you’re here asking, how do you communicate effectively."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I’m not-"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No judgment. I just think-"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s funny because I recognized that I have this problem is when one of my mentees asked me a similar question. I know I could empathize with her, but I did not have an answer because the very thing that you’re trying to avoid is exactly what you’re doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I think there’s a bit of a mirror reflection that’s happening, and I’m glad you’re here because I think maybe let’s start with looking at you rather than others around this aspect of communicating effectively, which is what you’re doing. So that’s what we’re going to do. Let me ask you this. What do you see as your role relative to… I’m just going to take a step back here because it seems to be particularly happening with people in authority who you feel are not deserving of the authority that they have. So what do you see as your role relative to that dynamic?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s a very good question, and I don’t know if I have the answer, but going in, I think reflecting back, I’ve always been in situations where I could have said something and the outcome would’ve been different, and I said nothing, and it was a disaster. I recently read an article about Bob Ebeling. I think he died a year or a while back. He was the guy who worked with the Challenger. He knew what was wrong. He said nothing. I’m not comparing myself to a rocket scientist, but I think I would say it’s regret of seeing that we’re going down a path that is undesirable and staying on the train without pulling the horn or initiating a course correction."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s pause here. user reached out because he feels as though the way he communicates with the people above him might be hindering his ability to advance in his career. He knows what he wants and aims to communicate directly, but it’s not always coming off the way he wants. In evaluating his options, right now he feels like he can really only do one of two things, continue speaking up when he disagrees at the risk of negatively impacting others or keep quiet. Something user said really stuck with me: “The very thing you’re trying to avoid is the thing that you are doing.” Let’s keep this in mind as we think through how he can communicate more effectively and still meet his goals. We’ll jump back in now to look at those two options as I ask him whether they are really his only options or is there another path. So are those your only two options to say something in a way that makes those folks feel a certain type of way or say nothing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I think both are counterproductive. I think the third option would be to perhaps question in a way that’s constructive, not destructive, engage in a way that you don’t necessarily curse the dark, you light a candle, in a way that’s diplomatic, in a way that others will find it receptive. So I think that would be a third option."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So why don’t you do that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s a great question. I think reflecting back on it, hindsight is 2020, but I didn’t look at it that way. I’m an avid reader. I love to read, and there are several books that I’ve read that talk about that, but when you’re in the heat of the moment, and I think sometime emotions, the amygdala gets hijacked, you tend to lose focus and you tend not, I tend not to focus on the outcome rather than focusing on the moment. Maybe it’s just an emotional reaction instead of responding in a way that’s much more productive and has much better long-term consequences."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Look, it happens to all of us, and I think that part of it is recognizing when you do go into that emotional hijack and you go into reactive mode, what are you reacting to and what is driving you at that point? So you can only recognize it if you can actually see it and feel it and hear it. So in those moments, what is it that’s driving you those times where you are not diplomatic and questioning and trying to find that middle ground, but you go to, “I’m just going to call you out,” basically, what is it that is driving that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it’s anger. The reason why I say that is because a lot of times, leaders, they all know what the problem is, and I’ve had these conversations with my leadership and my leadership’s leadership outside of the conversation, and I’m sitting in the conversation and I’m looking at them and they’re saying, “Well,” and I think the fact that they’re remaining silent when my expectation is, “You’re a leader. You have the opportunity to move the needle here. Why not say something?” I think my attention then focuses on, “Why are you in the position you’re in if you’re not able to affect change in a positive way?” I think that’s where the amygdala hijack comes in, and I think I lose sight of the vision."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think you just said it really beautifully. You have an expectation that’s being unmet, and when that expectation is being unmet, it makes you angry, right? You’re like, “Come on, what’s going on?” and then you go into-"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Overdrive."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Overdrive. Exactly. So it sounds a little similar to something you shared about your background in terms of how you grew up and what was expected of you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. I think it’s not a therapy session, but I do think it does have an impact. The expectations that were set when I was much younger by parents, my community was you hit things on the head, don’t dance around the issue. I think in that situation, my community leaders, my elders, so to speak, my parents, if there was an issue, we would bring everyone to the table. We would bring the village, so to speak, to the table. The way the leaders in my community, and I’ve been privileged and fortunate to work with leaders outside of my industry, and I’ve seen them at their best, the caliber and the pedigree of leaders that I’ve worked with, they challenge the issue, they put the issue on the table, and I think here what I’m seeing is that lack of assertiveness, that lack of, “Let’s challenge each other.” I think to your point, instead of reacting, respond in a way that’s productive because it’s ironic that the very thing that you’re trying to address, you’re compounding it by reacting in a way that’s counterproductive."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The thing that you’re reacting to is your expectation. You’re reacting to your expectation of the way that they should be rather than realizing, “This is where they are. Therefore, what do I need to do? How do I need to be do to communicate based on where they are?” which is however it is that they’re communicating? I also think that I wasn’t necessarily going back to, as you said, this is not a therapy session, I wasn’t going back to how you were raised. I was going back to what your expectation was that you shared around when you do something. I think the way you said is when you do something, you do it right or you don’t do it at all."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly, and I think that’s the rob is if you’re doing it, why waste your time? Why make it half-baked? Because we’re talking about shareholders’ funds, it’s given to us. It’s a trust that our shareholders have a certain expectations of us. Why not perform, behave, lead in a way that if your shareholders see you, they would be proud of you. I think that’s tangential. I think what you’re saying though is how do I manage my emotions, how do I manage my situations, and how do I manage my reaction or my response to folks that I interact with, with colleagues that I interact with in such a way that I meet them where they are."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You meet them where they are and not based on what you think or how you think things should be because even what you said, listen, in an ideal world, yes, everybody does exactly what they’re supposed to do, and they do it right, and they’re responsible and they’re not half-baked. They are … I get it, user. You seem like a guy who is like 350% in on everything, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you’re like, “If I’m that way, and I’ve seen other leaders be that way, every leader should be this way. Why should it not be?” So there’s something that’s happening where people are not leading according to user’s rules, and as much as those rules are great, I would love to live in a world where everybody lived by those rules too. That’s not the reality of things. So you’re having a little bit of a mini tantrum in these meetings. It’s just the adult version. You boldly call them out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mature tantrums. I love it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mature tantrums."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I love it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I only bring this up because, yes, we could talk about communication skills and we could talk about the diplomatic way of doing it and the delivery, which we will, but if you don’t go back and kick the tire on what is the assumption and the expectation that is then leading you to react in this way, it’s all for not. You’ll end up right back here, and by here I mean here and what you experienced with your senior leaders today even, and maybe even here coaching with me because you’ll be like, “Dang it, Muriel. I did what you said to do and it still brought me back here.” So we’ve got to start with your expectation or not even your expectation, your assumption around how leaders should be. I know it sounds cliche, but there is no should. There just is. So the leaders you’re dealing with right now are what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Are not at a level where I expect leaders to be in their position."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. “They’re not at a level at which I expect them to be,” there’s a judgment there because who made up the definition of what the level is? It’s relative to what you think. It’s subjective. So I would like to hear a fact, meaning, the leaders I work with today did not communicate X, Y, Z or did communicate X, Y, Z."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s a tough one. I get where you’re going and I think it’s going to be a transition, but I think if we were to go through the exercise, I would say the leaders that I work with today without judgment did not communicate in a way that was received. This is a tough one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What’s tough about it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You talked about two things, the assumptions and the expectations, and the fact that I am struggling to put together one sentence. It says a lot. I have to unpack that because I think what you’ve said is I’ve created a world where I think I have a certain set of standards, which, by the way, are subjective, and leaders should behave this way. I expect them to behave this way. They are given a title, and this is what I assume of them. So I think I have to do a lot of unlearning and introspection because that’s why I’m here today. It’s not the communication. The communication is the output of everything else that comes before what’s being said or what you say."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Look, user, here’s the thing. If you want to communicate effectively, you have to be able to see the situation effectively. I’m not dismissing your expectations. Like I said, I would love to live in that world. Not dismissing them. I’m just saying that it is tinting the way that you then see those leaders that is then creating these emotions of anger, which then is leading to the communication delivery issue that you have. So what we’re trying to do is neutralize it a little bit so that you can see the situation clearly and then determine, “Okay. Based on seeing the situation clearly without filter, then how do I or what do I say relative to the outcome?” So if I give you an example, I think I’ve used this example a lot, but the version of what I’m asking you is like if I ask you, “What’s the weather today?” and you say, “Oh, my gosh, the weather is amazing.” That tells me nothing about the weather except how you feel about it. It doesn’t tell me if it’s sunny, hot, cold or gray or rainy or snowing or hailing outside because your perception of what’s amazing weather might be very different than what my perception of amazing weather is. The data-driven response would be, “Oh, what’s the weather? It’s 35 degrees outside, and I’m looking, there’s water falling from the sky. It’s raining.” That’s the no judgment response. It’s what’s happening. Let’s see the situation clearly. So when I asked you what’s the situation with your leaders, what’s happening, you’re giving me the, “It’s amazing,” or, “It’s not amazing,” weather report rather than the, “Here’s the temperature,” and it’s either sunny or raining or hailing or snowing or whatever, something that is actually evidence-based."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I get it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You get it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think you’re absolutely right. It’s being able to label it with any color or baggage, so to speak. So it’s not what happened when the leaders communicate, and I’m still struggling. I get what you’re saying. It’s putting it in practice. When the leader communicated with the team, the team didn’t fully understand the message."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So let’s leave it at that. This team did not fully understand the message, and how did you know? The team did not fully understand the message?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s evidenced by the fact that there were a number of water cooler conversations. There were followup meetings."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Side conversations."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Questions of clarification after the meeting. There were several sessions that took place to clarify the original message."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, we’re not labeling it. I love the fact that you used the word labeling rather than the word I use, which is without judgment. I think labeling is actually a simpler way of thinking about it. Without labeling it, your assessment is something was communicated by the senior leaders. It was not understood by the receivers of that message. My interpretation of that it was not understood is based on the fact that there were a series of followup conversations that needed to happen, side conversations."}, {"role": "user", "content": "100%."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "100%. What do you think the impact would be if you were to state that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It would’ve been very different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In what way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The fact that my interpretation of what happened maybe followed by, and it could have been different, and it’s not the ideal way of communicating it, but I think it took some of the edge off because even though it was a bit subjective, I clearly stated that it was my perception of what happened, and here’s the evidence that I bring forth to support my assumption or to support my thesis."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right. So you’re owning your interpretation rather than demanding that others see it the way that you did it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes or projecting it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "… or projecting it. That’s the fancy word, but yes, or projecting it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So that’s part one. What it does then is allow you, when you’re able to say, “It’s my interpretation, my perception, I own it,” what does it then allow you to do in the next step of your communication?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think what that does is it creates an environment in which we can go back and forth. It does not come across as being condescending, as being subjective, as being pushy. It comes more across of, “Let’s explore this. Let’s understand …” and I think it creates a more collaborative environment because then I would be more receptive if I was on the receiving end of what I just said rather than, “Well …” and even though I didn’t say this, it would come across as, “Well, you guys don’t know what you’re doing. You’re inept and you should probably think about updating your resume.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re going straight to that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I think it’s a different tone. The modality of the delivery is very different. It’s very receptive."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think what you said around, it allows for opening. If you own that, it’s your interpretation, you then have a chance to check it out. So again, going back to the weather, if I say, “Hey, it’s sunny outside. That’s amazing. It’s amazing. Isn’t it amazing?” and you go, “No, that’s not amazing. I don’t like hot weather.” “Oh, okay,” versus me saying, “Hey, it’s sunny outside. It’s amazing. It really is amazing. You should go put some shorts and a tank top on,” and you’re like, “What? What did she tell …” “No, no, really, let me convince you that that’s what you should do,” and if you’re like, “I don’t understand,” and then I’m like, “Oh, my God, what’s wrong with this person that they don’t want to wear flip flops and shorts and tank tops and it’s sunny outside?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very close ended if I do it the latter way, okay? You’re right, then you jump to, “What’s wrong with this person that they’re not getting and making the same assessment that I’m making?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I laugh, but it’s very profound because the weather example, a farmer may say, like you said, a farmer, “It’s raining. Great. My crops are going to blossom.” Well, I may not like the rain because I have a parade today. So now the farmer’s projecting, and then it creates a lot more animosity, for lack of a better word. It creates a negative environment, which, again, the irony of it all is the exact thing you’re trying to do, you’re undoing or creating, you’re exacerbating the problem by projecting, by me looking at the world through my tinted lens of, “This is how it should be. These are my assumptions, and I’m therefore projecting it on you. What’s wrong with you? Why don’t you understand it? Are you okay? Why don’t you get it?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this is key because if you’re trying to get somebody to a certain destination, basically what you’re trying to do is influence rather than get them to comply, right, user? You do have to, again, a little cliche, but you have to take your glasses off and put theirs on and see the world through their eyes so that you can understand where they’re starting from and frame the message in a way that they’re going to best understand it. Right now, you’re framing the message in a way that you understand it and you’re sending the message in a tone that you understand it, meaning when the tone that’s used with you is when you don’t do something, you better get it right. That works for you. That’s the tone that works for you or that’s the tone that has worked for you to get you to the place where you are today. That tone doesn’t necessarily work for everybody else."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Why not? No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ve never looked at it that way, but I think it’s a very profound way of looking at it because it then changes the delivery. It then changes the interaction, it then changes the expectation. It then allows me to challenge those assumptions and expectations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This session is bringing up an important facet of coaching, especially when it’s not an ongoing relationship. Part of the situation that user outlined around his communication style is the sense that he gets that what he’s saying doesn’t land well with others. Not only does nothing change when he communicates, but people don’t seem to react well. This can be a bit tricky as a coach because I’m not able to talk to others and see how they experience user or get a better sense of their side of the story, but there are a lot of things that we can do. So taking user through why he communicates the way he does and what other options he has is really key. Now, it’s time to think about how some of this reframing might actually play out in practice. Let’s dive back in as we work through some scenarios. So let’s do a little bit of practice around this. If you were to put yourself in the shoes of these very leaders who you felt are not doing right by everybody, put yourself in their shoes, how do you feel you need to convey your message in a way that’s going to best land with them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the first thing I would do is take a step back, get a panoramic view of the situation, challenge the assumptions I have, look at my expectations, and then ask questions that are non-judgmental. Again, going back to the, “Oh, my God, it’s amazing.” “No, it’s raining and it’s 35 degrees outside,” I think that’s the approach I would now embrace, and using that mindset, I think the exchange, the back and forth will take on a different tone because my world, I’ve had the privilege or pleasure or whatever it is of living with myself for the last however many years. So my world is quite different from theirs, and it would allow me to bring grace, patience, understanding the situation before popping off at the mouth, so to speak. Perhaps in some cases, they may have challenges that they probably weren’t prepared. I think it allows me to not be so dogmatic about what I know is right and I know they should be doing, and it would add a bit of, I would say, levity, sobriety in terms of how I communicate, what my expectations are. It would really give me pause to think about what’s the outcome, one, you’re trying to achieve? Check your assumptions at the door and engage."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Beautiful. So here’s the thing. We started off this conversation, and when I asked you what type of feedback do you get, the feedback you get is, “Look, user, your message, the point you’re making is on point. It’s right. It’s the way that you’re delivering it.” So in no way do we want to dismiss this asset that you have around being able to laser in on what a solution might be or what an answer might be. It’s not all of a sudden like, “Oh, I don’t know.” It’s the way that you convey that. I also asked you what was your intention, and then we talked a little bit about impact and what you just said here around, “If I want to do it with compassion and with grace,” and you used other words. So part of what I think would be helpful is if you think about when you convey a message, when you’re about to deliver something to these senior leaders, how is it that you want them to feel after you’ve conveyed the message? How do you want them to feel about themselves, about the situation, and about you? So when I asked that, what are some of the words that come up for you? How do you want them to feel about you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In terms of the situation, I want them to feel empowered. I want them to feel encouraged. I want them to feel good about themselves because if I’m stomping and stepping and tearing them down, the energy that they’re using to either fight that or to wrestle with that could have been diverted to actually solving the problem. So I think how would I want them to feel about me, that I’m someone they can work with, that I’m someone who’s collaborative, that I’m someone who understands the vision and who’s willing to work with them, not against them to achieve the mission so we can all be successful, our shareholders can be successful, our team members can be successful, you can be successful as my leader, and I can be successful as your subordinate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it sounds like you want them to feel like you are on the same side of the table as they are in solving whatever issues you’re bringing up rather than being across the table pointing the finger."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. I think it would come across with less hubris or less, “I know what’s right, you don’t. Hahaha,” or it would come across more mature. I think you mentioned the mature tantrum I think becomes a constructive conversation, “Here’s the path. How do we go down that path and how do we work together to achieve our objectives?” not necessarily, “Well, you should be and why aren’t you?” It’s counterproductive. It does not add to the outcome. It’s distracting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So if I may, I’m going to suggest a practice for you post our meeting, which is prior to every conversation that you go in with these specific leaders that you visualize starting being and staying on the same side of the table, okay? Then ask yourself, “If I’m going to stay on the same side of the table, what tone do I need to use and what communication strategies do I need to use when I’m trying to get my message across?” So notice I didn’t say don’t say anything. It’s tone and strategy."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "“If I want them to feel, and in fact, I am on the same side, on the same team, same side of the table as they’re,” and then what’s going to happen is you’re going to be in these meetings, and every now and then you’re going to realize, “Oh, my gosh, how did I get to the other side of the table? I didn’t mean to do that.” That’s okay. That’s actually where the learning will happen is in noticing when you default and then you just want to step back to the other side, and how do you do that? So what are going to be your tools to course correct? Your tone and your communication strategy, and you already said what they were. You said, “Communication strategy, I need to probably start with more questions in a way that’s open-ended. I need to own what my interpretation is rather than demand that they see it the same way that I do. My tone doesn’t need to have any type of emotive around it. It’s neutral.” So when I say all that, what do you think would get in the way of you being able to practice that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My ego. The question I think has now been shifted from how do I communicate the message in a way that folks can understand to how do I manage my internal, my expectations, and my assumptions internally, being mindful of the tone, being mindful of the strategy, and obviously above all the outcome, how do I want to leave these leaders or how do I want to leave this transaction, this communication, this conversation? Starting with those I think will be key."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Look, I think you hit the nail on the head there. Transfer the energy that you’re expending towards others and transfer it back to you to manage yourself."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you can manage yourself, you have a better chance of then being able to manage the communication that comes out of you and then hopefully influence others because you’re not going to be able to control them. All you’re doing is trying to influence. So bring it back a couple of steps. So exactly what you just said, revert the energy to managing yourself."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So my sense is that you get it, right? You get what you need to do. Now, it’s a matter of doing it, and it takes practice."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s practice. The theory is great. I think the rubber meets the road when you’re faced with the situation, and oftentimes we don’t always measure up to our highest standards when we’re in the heat of the moment, and I think it’s going to be an exercise that will not come easily because the default is to be emotional, to be reactive, and to say, “Why can’t you see it this way?” and then start projecting. I think it’s going to take some patience and some diligence and discipline to continue on the journey. I don’t think I’ll ever get there, but I think with practice over time, it will become better. I’ll be more self-aware. I’ll control the amygdala a bit more. It’s a very useful way of approaching conversations, not just with leaders, but I think I participated in a lot of sports. Sometimes taking that step back, meeting people where they are … A couple months ago, I was running with my wife and I love to run, and she’s not where I am. I think the lack of patience there was, now looking back at it, made me realize that, yes, sometimes my expectations and the way I project those expectations and assumptions can sometimes have unintended consequences. So this is extremely helpful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Look, you’re not going to be able to get your wife to run any faster if you’re yelling at her 10 miles down the road because, first of all, she can’t hear you. As a fellow runner, let me tell you that, and running way behind her isn’t going to do it either. That’s the version of not saying anything. How do you coach somebody or how do you support somebody to run a little faster up the hill through the muck? How do you do it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You do it by being side by side, encouraging, responding, motivating."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think going way ahead or staying far behind, both are counterproductive. It’s you meet them where they are, literally. In this analogy, I think we meet and we stay with each other, and again, it takes a great deal of patience, a great deal of self-awareness to be able to say, “Yes, let’s take this path together. Whether we’re going up the hill, going around through or over a barrier or we’re on the straits, we are together. We’re one team.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right. Anyone who takes running seriously as it sounds like you do, I certainly do, one of the first things you do when you set out on a run is you set your intention, “What is this run about? Is it a fun run? Is it a training run? Who am I running with? How do I want to be with that? Am I going to stick by their side? If I know I want a hard training run and I already know the person is slow, should I even be going out with them?” You set your intention and you set your intention based on how you want the run to go and how you want to feel after the run."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Begin with the end in mind. Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Begin with the end in mind. So you have that at your disposal to use as well when you go into these meetings, and practice with your wife. I think that’s amazing. All right. Beautiful. So I think we can wrap it up. I’d love to hear in a few words, you can use adjectives, how did you feel at the beginning of our coaching conversation and how are you feeling now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think in the beginning I had a lot of questions, I had a lot of doubts. I was less sure of what the outcome is. I think at the end, I have the tools that are at my disposal that I can leverage, whether it’s in personal situations or professional settings to help my peers grow, to help myself grow and to work toward an outcome that’s mutually beneficial for not only myself, but for others. I think I feel I’ve grown tremendously from the beginning of the conversation to the end of the conversation because I now have the tools that will enable me to be successful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think what happens in a coaching session like this is that the awareness increases."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The awareness increases. The growth will happen through the practice. So you’ve got to go forth and practice now. That’s the only way that you’ll see if what we discussed, if the insights that you had today actually stick. So do that and then come back and let me know how it went."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. Thank you so much, Muriel. This has been very helpful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Communicating clearly and effectively while also building trust and influence is a key skill of any great leader. user came to this session with the goal of eventually getting to the C-suite in his career, but also knowing that there are some communication issues that he’d like to work on, especially when it comes to managing up. We work through what a lot of his assumptions and expectations are around what leaders should be. By approaching his interactions more objectively, it can help reframe his reaction to the situation and to those around him because a key skill of leadership isn’t always about doing it your way. It’s about making sure how you communicate really lands with your stakeholders. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time-"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Want more of Coaching Real Leaders? Join our community where I host live discussions to unpack the coaching sessions. Become a member at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find me and my newsletter on LinkedIn at coach AI. Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe, sound editor, Nick Crnko, music composer, Brian Campbell, my assistant, Emily Sopha, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners, who share in their journeys. If you’re dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show next season. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com and, of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward, share it with your friends, subscribe, and leave a review on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. From HBR Presents, I’m coach AI. Until next time, be well."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "She’s taken a number of chances in her career and made some big pivots. Now, she’s been assigned to a senior role on an interim basis, but she’s not sure whether she should try to make the role permanent. Host Muriel Wilkins coaches her through the decision-making process to better understand what’s holding her back and the future she envisions for herself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call user to protect her confidentiality. She’s been in her current industry for less than 10 years after making a notable career pivot."}, {"role": "user", "content": "… that’s have been doing boutique-y work and sort of non-corporate, really small scale, small business scale work. But I’d had a lot of exposure to working with people and other businesses in other industries that were in these pretty large interesting structures. And what I wanted to do is work in a central service and watch a whole lot of people do their jobs and figure out which one I wanted. I started on a temporary contract as an administrator and have sort of worked my way up, and it’s happened really, really quickly. I really found a discipline that I loved and hit my stride. I spend my weekends and evenings listening to podcasts about it, and I’ve been a real duck to water."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user had a lot of success in this new field relatively quickly, and she’s now serving in an interim position at a senior executive level. That interim role had an initial time period attached to it, a timeframe that has now doubled. And so user is faced with an increasingly pressing choice. Is this the right role for me? Should I try to make it permanent?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m finding it a really tough decision, because I am not usually indecisive about this kind of thing. And I think probably for the first time in my life, I might have a bit of imposter syndrome. I usually feel very confident about what I can and can’t do. If I say I can’t do something, I probably can’t. I am usually very confident about those decisions for myself, and I’m not confident about this one. Really, I don’t know what I think. I don’t know how I want to move forward."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Since this is still currently an interim position, user feels a sense of pressure of the use the opportunity or lose it variety and is hoping to get more clarity on whether this role truly is the right fit for her. So she’s prepared if and when the company asks her to make a choice. The fact that this feels different, that user usually feels confident and decisive got my attention. So let’s start as I ask her, what are the skills and strengths she has that she thinks helped her advance so quickly in her career?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that a lot of the execution in this function is common sense. A lot of it is about courage and people skills and leadership skills and connection and a collaborative inclination. It’s about problem solving and thinking about people and challenges and change in a way that is a little bit out of the box, but also is, I think, courageous is really the word. I think it’s easy to get bogged down within this discipline and technical problem solving or framework or methodologies and that kind of thing, and I just don’t really do that. I sort of look at what’s in front of us and solve problems with that information and with the people who are involved rather than relying on technical things that you might find in a manual. And I think having as little experience as I have is in some ways an advantage. I’m not inhibited by the way that other people do this. I was talking to my team, and we were batting around a problem that we were having, and I was on one side of the argument, and they were all on the other. And I said, “Well, look. Let’s get to the crux of why we believe what we’re believing here.” And really, they were uncomfortable because the solution that I was pitching was unusual. It was something that none of them had ever seen. And I heard myself say something like, “Guys, this is not your mother’s team. We are doing something new. We are not going to be doing it the way that other people have done it.” And look, I let them overrule me in that conversation. I didn’t slam through my weird idea without anybody else’s support. I didn’t think that was going to be an overall win. But it was really interesting, because even the team that I’ve built, who are innovative and forward-thinking and future-oriented around this industry and what we can be, they’re inhibited sometimes by the way that things have been done. And I think my core advantage and my core skill in the rise that I’ve been able to have has been just to not rest on the laurels of traditional or old habits in the space. I’ve had a lot of luck. I’ve been lucky to be able to be in a good position to seize the opportunities that I’ve had, and I’ve also had a lot of help from people in my network. I’ve had a lot of trust put in me. I’ve been able to talk to people very honestly and get really good support, and people have taken risks to let me come into something that is very unknown and sink or swim."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, what has been your experience in the interim role?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s a really hard question to answer. I really enjoy it. I have a lot of fun. Most days of the week, I wake up and feel excited by it. I have had to learn things really fast, and it’s been really cool, because sometimes it can be hard to know when you’re learning. It’s hard to identify that for yourself sometimes. But I’ve had a really steep learning curve in this, and I know that, because I look at programs or things that I’m working on that have been running for a few months, and I go, “If I was starting that now, I would start it differently. I would be starting from a different place in how I tackled that.” So the learning opportunity has been fantastic. I have a good relationship with everybody on the executive team, including my CEO. There are some variation there, of course. There are some who I spend a lot more time with and some who I spend a little bit of time with. But overall, I’ve built really good relationships, and I feel that I have their support for the most part. So look, it’s been good. It’s been challenging. It’s really put me out of my depths a number of times. And the things that are tricky about it are sometimes there are kind of no-win scenarios. Sometimes, you’re going to fall off the ledge one way or another. You’ve just got to pick which way. That’s been a challenge. I’ve never had challenges that I really thought I was going to, thought that there was no really good solution to. I just had to decide which way to fail. That’s been really interesting. It’s a big job. The workload is huge, the hours are huge, the commitment is huge. So there’s that. That’s been a challenge at times. And I think that the level of decision making and gumption and confidence that I’ve had to have has been a bit of a challenge. So look, it’s been really good. It’s been amazing from a learning perspective. I really do enjoy it. It has had an impact on me personally, like I am one of the considerations about whether I pitch myself for this or not is not letting my physical health and fitness deteriorate so much. I’m young, and I don’t want to give up my longevity for a job. That’s a really shortsighted thing. So there are challenges in there, and these are some of the things that are playing in my mind about the decision that I’ve got in front of me. But overall, I’ve had a great time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what kind of feedback have you received, if any, in terms of how you have performed in the interim role?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have received relatively positive feedback. I had a really nice piece of feedback from the board chair recently, which is a pretty big deal, because I think I am as old as his grandkids. And so I think for him to acknowledge me as a professional is actually quite a big deal. So that was really good. I have a great relationship with my direct manager. We do have some conflicts about stuff. I think mostly positive. I think it’s hard for me to say. I’m finding it hard to gauge that, I think, is part of the problem. So what people are saying to me is positive, but I have context or some knowledge or some questions around that feedback that I’m getting directly. So we have a really high stakes, high performance culture, so there has also been certainly some critical feedback and some suggestions come my way as well from our top senior leadership. That to me, I mean, it’s been in proportion to what I hear others get. I don’t think that’s any worse already. More sort of an indicator of underperformance as it is for anybody else that I talk to pretty regularly. And it’s funny, because I’m hearing myself doubt that feedback as I’m talking, and I’m like, “I’m getting good feedback,” but I’m like, “but I don’t trust it.” And that’s really weird. I don’t know where that’s coming from, but I’m getting good feedback to my faith, but it’s not necessarily making me feel confident."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What would make you feel confident?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "One of the things that I’m finding challenging about this role, I think, is that it’s quite lonely being head of a function, because it’s not appropriate to kind of share and talk to the team the way that I could when I had more peers. I’ve got no one to look to in a functional technical capacity who is more senior than me. I’ve got no one to role model from. And so I think that maybe why I’m finding this a bit harder to get a good gauge is because I’m used to being able to model off somebody, off a clear kind of north star of what good looks like. I don’t have that. And so I think I’m used to making up more of my own mind about my own performance, I think, and I don’t have the same data points that I would usually have to do that maybe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, maybe."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe. I’m not sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, I’m hearing you speak, and I hear the questions that you have in your mind, and I hear the doubt that you’ve articulated that you have. And I think it would be helpful to just break apart the problem statement or the question that you came with, which is do I put myself forward for the permanent role? Do I want this permanently, or do I not put myself? And actually let me correct that, because do I put myself forward for the permanent role or do I not is a different question than do I want the role? Because some people put themselves forward for a position even if they don’t want it, or some people want a position and don’t put themselves forward. And so let me actually start with that. Do you want it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What makes you want the role?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I like the difference that I can make being in this seat. It brings me incredible joy and satisfaction to see the grounds that the team have gained and that the company has gained in the spaces that I have some direct influence over. I also really like not really being told what to do by anybody. That’s been quite good. Being kind of the master of your own destiny in a way that you don’t get if you’ve got a sort of a functional kid who’s paying a bit more attention to what you’re doing, I guess. Yeah, it’s fun, it’s challenging, it’s kind of engaging, it’s bursty and kind of full of spark and potential. I find it really energizing to be doing it. The impact that we’re able to have for the company is really satisfying. I get a lot out of that. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So there is a motivator there for you around wanting it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right? It is something that you would want. Now the decision is do you go for what you want or do you not, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So let me ask you this. What would make you go for the role, pitch yourself for it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would need to trust that I can really do it. It’s such a critical role, and it’s such a cool company. I wouldn’t ever want to sit in a job that I can’t actually do, and I would hate that personally, but also we’re at such an inflection point as a business, I wouldn’t want to be somewhere that somebody else could actually take it further. So that’s a big part of it. I’m not confident that I’m actually doing it the way that it could be done. And I know that’s not a real sentence because there’s 600 things that anybody could do and you only ever get to do 50 of them. So I know nobody’s perfect, but I would hate for the business to be limited by my lack of experience in that position. I’m not comfortable with that. The other piece is about, because I have compensated for a lack of experience by working incredibly hard, by doing the research, doing the checking, working with my network, working with my peers or my mentors to figure out the problem and make sure that there’s not something obvious that I’m missing just because I don’t have the experience or the exposure that somebody with a decade or more of experience would have. So I have put a lot into it. And I did that knowingly, but I did that knowing that I had a short run at it. I was like, “I can burn the candle for that length of time. That’ll be really interesting. Let’s go hard and make the most of it.” And now that gone on and on and on and on and on, and we’re several more months down the road, I’m like, “Okay, well, I’m not going to be able to do that forever. That’s not a sustainable way to do this.” And so I’ve started to claw back a bit of balance, but there’s still a question around that for me. So I need to feel confident that I can do it and do it well for the good of the business and for myself and for my team. And I need to know that it’s in my power to do it in a way that isn’t going to have long-term impacts for me in terms of health, fitness, family, diet, that sort of stuff, because it has come first."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sometimes people come to coaching because they want to figure out where their gaps are or what they need to improve to achieve their long-term goals. Other times, there’s a specific, often time-sensitive problem that they’re looking to solve. user is one of those time-sensitive coaching clients because she has a decision to make. Now, one thing that often happens in these situations is the person I’m coaching to some extent is looking for answers from me, but my job isn’t to recommend either or. It’s to help them break down the problem they’re facing and the assumptions they’re making to figure out where the root of the challenge or decision is and what different paths forward might look like. user has already started that process of breaking the problem down into smaller pieces by introducing the idea that she both wants to know she’ll be good at the job and if taking the job will be good for her. We’re going to dive deeper now into looking at those two central issues and think about how she might come to a better understanding of fit. So you have broken it down to sort of two key central variables. And I cannot tell you whether you are right for the job. I just can’t. That would be very, very irresponsible and foolish of me. And I also can’t tell you whether it’s going to bring you the balance because I don’t know what type of balance you desire. How I define balance is different, I’m sure, than how you define balance. It might be the same, but I’m not going to presuppose that it’s the same. So I think it’d be worthwhile for us to help you get to a place of being able to make a decision. It’d be helpful to kind of break these apart a little bit more. And so with this piece around, I need to feel confident I can do it well and I can do it well for the sake of the team and the sake of the company rather than somebody else who has more experience than me or who I think could take it further, what would you need to feel confident that you could do this job well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it has to come from people who know what they’re talking about and who I trust, I guess. That is a thing. I have received overall positive feedback on it, but maybe I haven’t solicited that in a way that is going to really give me confidence that I’m getting the full picture from people because it’s hard work giving people feedback. I don’t ask that of people lightly. It’s a lot of work. So probably what I could do is set up some conversations to really prep people properly and get that buy-in from them that they’re willing to do it and get some really clear feedback from people. I can’t think of any other real way to do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, I think there’s two pieces to it. I think there is this external data point that you’re going to seek out, and then there’s also your internal data point, which is what do I believe and what do they believe? And then let me put those two together and does it give me enough of a sense of, yes, I can do this. And so what data do you have so far that makes you believe you can do the role and what data do you have so far that makes you believe you can’t do it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The data I have so far that says I can do it, that I’m still here and I’m still doing it and nobody’s told me to stop doing it, I think if it was a disaster, that would’ve happened. Nobody has done anything to look for a replacement. I mean, my team are really kicking goals this year. We set out with some pretty big ambitions and we’re really going to do all of it. Nothing’s perfect, but we’re really on a good wicket as a group and we’re delivery focused. And really we hit some big ambitions around how we wanted to work together and what we wanted to get done this year. And that’s really worked. I did have a couple of people internally within the team get a bit of a fright I think when I stepped up, and everybody’s come back on the bus. I haven’t had anybody leave that I’m concerned about, which has been really good over this time, out of the team. There’s some sort of organization metrics which we’re meeting. There’s no sort of red flags from a delivery perspective and the things that we do measure as well from a goals and KPIs perspective. There’s nothing going on that really gives me the sense that there’s anything wrong with the way that I’m delivering. Part of my questioning about it also I think is signing up to a permanent gig, which is a different kind of pressure, right? Saying that I can run the ship for a few weeks or months or however long this is going to end up being, years, that’s different to saying, “I will be the right thing into the future. I’m going to have enough to be able to do this into the future, and you can count on me for years to come.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I mean, I think there is a difference. I think, I don’t know. I mean, I’m reflecting back on what you’re saying and I feel like I’m asking you what’s the weather? And you’re like, “It’s sunny. It’s sunny,” but I’m like, “Is it going to rain?” You’re like, “No, it doesn’t show rain, but it feels like there might be rain, but the weather forecast is not telling me there’s rain.” Well, yes, there’s always a possibility of rain, but you’re telling me it’s sunny and warm outside. So you’re not getting any data that says you can’t do this role."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe what’s happening is more the notion of moving into it permanently and what are the implications of that in terms of what I’m signing up for and the pressure of it, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So talk a little bit about that. What is it about that that is causing some hesitation on your end?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The first thing is I think when I took the role, I had a very clear sort of tactical delivery set of objectives. Then I wrote, like I said, “This is what I’m going to be able to do over this period of time. Is this what you need?” And everyone said, “Yes, yes, yes, CEO,” and we did that. We did that. But tactics, I love tactics. Tactics are ready. It’s about lateral thinking and putting things together and problem solving and flipping it around. Fine. I don’t know that I really actually understand what people mean when they say strategy. I think sometimes people have different definitions of that, and if somebody asked me to put together a function strategy, I wouldn’t necessarily feel very confident in doing that. And it’s hard because I know when things are strategic and when they’re not. I know when somebody’s made a non-strategic decision. Those end up being quite obvious in hindsight. But I don’t know that I understand what that means and what people mean by it. And so taking it on. The other thing is I started to talk a little bit about the company being a really amazing company and it is. It is growing, and we are a purpose-driven company. We’re doing something really cool for the world, and man, we are rocketing in terms of growth. And so that’s people and dollars and infrastructure and geographic footprint. We are on a swing and man, it’s incredible. And so I think nobody knows what the future could be. Nobody knows where we’re headed. There are so many possibilities and the sky’s the limit in some ways. And I get worried, I feel worried that I’m trying to catch up to a role that’s growing exponentially as the company grows. Maybe it is imposter syndrome. I don’t know how to put my hand on my heart and say, “I’m going to be able to do this.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so here’s the thing. First of all, is it imposter syndrome? I don’t know. I’m not going to label it anything. It is whatever it is that you’re facing, right? We get caught up in is it this, is it that? It’s what you’re experiencing, which is can I do this role and can I stand the heat of it? I mean, here’s the thing. There’s two ways you can look at this. You can say, because you said, for example, if you talk about a functional strategy, you don’t know what that actually means and what that actually looks like. So at some point, you talked about early on in your career, you completely pivoted to something different that you had no idea what it was either. And you also talked about when you took the interim role, you invested in learning and came up a pretty steep learning curve to what it sounds like you’ve done pretty well. So I think the question really is not do I think I can do the role permanently. I think the question is, do I believe I can learn what it’s going to take to do the role permanently?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that’s a good question. And the answer to that is yes, because I really do trust myself to figure things out. I am good at learning on the fly and as we’re doing it, and I do trust myself to learn fast enough."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you’re not learning it from scratch. I mean, you’ve had a pretty good warmup to learn it in terms of being in the interim role. So based on what you just said, it sounds like at least we can check off the box that you have confidence in your ability to ramp up to what the role will expect. I think there’s a question around what are the full expectations of the role? Do they mirror what you have done so far in the interim or is there more to it? And I think that’s what you need to find out by talking to your boss and some of your peers. What do they expect of somebody who sits in this role permanently? Is it the same as what you’ve been doing or is it different?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. So that then you can make an assessment of A; can I learn these things? And then B; very importantly, do I want to learn these things?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. What’s it going to cost?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Exactly. Do I want to? Right. So there’s a difference between having confidence in doing the thing, which if you wait for that, you will almost never start anything versus having confidence in our ability to, one; learn how to do the thing, and secondly; put in the effort to do the thing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And it’s interesting that I never shy away from putting in the work. I love a challenge. I’m a bit of a… I enjoy that stuff. It’s talked a little bit about some of the personal cost for it and it’s about velocity. It’s about how quickly all of this is going to come to fruition for the company and what that means. And that’s just about how many things to get my head around and get my arms around and how quickly that needs to happen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. That has implications on then, do you want to do it? I think we need to establish first, can you do it? And if the can you do it is really about, can you learn how to do it? You just answered the question. You said, “Yes, I think I could learn how to do it.” Now we can move to, “Okay, now do you really want to exercise that right to learn how to take on a role like this on a permanent basis in this environment or in this construct.” Okay. And what seems to be concerning you is the impact that it has on your health, your wellbeing, your personal life. Is that what it is?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And it’s also about, I really believe that you have to… People go up and down. You always have patches that you feel 100% or 90% versus 60%. That’s fine and that’s expected. And to really be really good, to really be a whole and interesting contributor at work, you do have to be a healthy person. You’ve got to have balance that… It’s not just about getting to do the things you want to do in personal life, that’s really important. But that to me is not the only thing. It’s also about being able to do it in a healthy way for myself, but also for the team, for the company. I have burnt out of a career before. I know what that feels like. I know what the impact is to you, and to the people around you, and to the business, and to the commitments that you’ve made. It’s a pretty bad time for everybody if that happens. And so I feel there is a piece to me that’s like, “Yeah, I want to sign off at five o’clock [inaudible 00:29:09].” But the other piece of that is if I don’t think I can do it happily and sustainably and well, I would rather not go through that experience again, for me, but also for my people and for the company."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s about balance. And I’m trying not to sound like I’m entirely oriented around work because I feel like that’s coming through in this conversation, but part of it is about sustainability for my own good, but for the good of the job and the business as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So two things. One is I would offer you to think about the interim experience that you’ve had, as the interim experience. You were starting out. If you move on and take this permanently, you will not be just starting out. That moment has passed. It will not be chapter one all over again. You yourself said, you came up a pretty steep learning curve you’re not going to go right back down the learning curve. As you know with learning curves, they plateau out a little bit or the curve just becomes less steep over time. So you’ve put in that initial time, and my sense is, given the time you’ve put in, you’re at the point where the incline is not going to be as steep. So let’s just, I think, partly to put a timestamp on what you’ve been through and not assume that what you’ve been through is exactly what’s going to be replicated as you take on the more permanent role. So that’s one. I think the second thing is let’s talk about, let’s be a little imaginary here, hypothetical. What would it look like for you to take on a role like this and feel like it’s sustainable? What would need to be in place?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m not sure. I don’t know. I actually don’t know. I don’t know what would make me feel… because I haven’t deteriorated. I have a little bit, my fitness has, I used to be a better cyclist than I am, but I haven’t deteriorated in terms of energy. I still feel really engaged and really optimistic and really good about my life and my job and all of that stuff. I think it’s physical health. I think it’s committing to looking after my body a bit better. Work is part to blame for that and the other part is just not feeling like it on a Thursday afternoon. But I think it would be about committing to a physical health goal and moving towards that because I just don’t want to let that go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And whose decision is that, whether to let it go or not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s mine, obviously. There are things… No, it’s mine. It’s mine. It’s like there are crises, there are fires, there’s a lot of travel involved with this role. But that’s for me to sort out, it’s just about prioritizing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s just about prioritizing. And it is yours, it really is. I wish I could say, “Yeah. Damn the role.” But it is about prioritizing and it is about making a decision and a commitment and saying, “Hey, here’s important to me. What’s important to me is my physical health. And one of the ways that I sustain that is by committing to a certain activity that I do as consistently as possible. And I don’t need to be 100% all the time, but let me aim for 80. And so how do I demonstrate that this is a priority for me?” And that’s where we get into the nuts and bolts. When I was in business school a very long time ago, the dean of the business school back then, every day at lunchtime, would go out for a run. Every day, every day. And if you couldn’t get on his calendar, people would say, “Well, you have the choice. You could go running with him at lunchtime.” He said, “I’m more than open than company.” But the run was non-negotiable. It happened every single day when he was in town, lunchtime, we all knew where he was. So as you grow in scope, as you grow in responsibility, things on the outside are not going to come to you and say, “Hey, here’s what’s important. Fit it in.” It really is going to be up to you to decide, “Hey, if this is what I want to do, if this is the commitment that I take on for a role, for a team, for whatever it is, how do I make it work in a way that also works for me?” There’s an and rather than them being mutually exclusive."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I think as I said, because I hit it like it was a fixed term commitment, and I was like, “Well, I’m going to go into that and give that everything, and then I’ll deal with the carnage on the other side of doing that.” I think over that period, I definitely let things go a bit. And I think it’s about shifting the way I’m thinking about that now. Especially if I’m going to go for broke and see whether I can secure it permanently. So I think I’ve got stuck putting it second or putting everything second really, because that was a short term agreement that I had with myself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, In a way, you approached the interim as, “This is a short-term sprint, so I’m going to go all out.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was meant to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. It was meant to be, so you did the right thing. You were like, “I’m going to go all out and then I’m going to recover at the end.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then, oh, lo and behold, the sprint became a marathon."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it has. I really did believe it was a sprint, but that was… If you’d asked me at the very beginning of this engagement, “Are you still going to be doing this X months down the road?” I would’ve said, “Absolutely not. The business is going to need something else. Once I’ve done these four things that I’ve said, they’re going to need some heavy hitting capability in this space.” I really did believe it was a sprint and that transition to non sprint. I’m in the middle zone now, we’re in a half-marathon, shall we say. And I think maybe just the looking at it stretching out in front or the potential of that distance continuing to increase. There has to be a point in time where I have to go, “Okay. Well, if you’re still doing this in two years, what does that look like? What’s the…?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What it looks like is you don’t approach it as a sprinter anymore. You don’t approach it as a sprint anymore because it’s not a sprint. You approach it as a half-marathon, a marathoner, or whatever you want to call it. You approach it for what it is, a longer term engagement. And so yes, there’s a certain pace, but you now have to adapt your pace and your sustainability. What is the type of sustainability that you want to approach it with and that you need to approach it with? So there’s a bit of a mismatch in what’s happened. You have transposed what your experience has been as an interim and what you thought was be a very short-term interim role, and you have taken that and put it on, “This is what’s going to be required of me in the permanent position.” And we don’t know if that’s true."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And then the other part is, as you said, you said, “I’m going to give it all in and then whatever happens, happens. I’ll be able to deal with it on the other side.” And now the other side looks much further away. So you better deal with it now, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Deciding whether or not to go after a permanent role that you’ve been doing on a temporary basis has a whole set of challenges that are different than pursuing a job at a new organization. In some ways, user is in a great position as she’s already had practice doing the role. She also has a clear set of concerns, one around whether she would be the best fit for the role, or is it too much of a stretch. And the other around what kind of commitment it would require of her. But now I think she reached an important realization that how she approached the role as the interim isn’t necessarily how she needs to approach it as the permanent leader. Thus far, she’s treated it like a sprint, but if the position becomes permanent, she’d have to pace herself differently. So a key piece for user to think about while making this decision is not only how she’s experienced the job thus far, but figuring out what conditions would need to be in place to make the role work for her. This can help narrow in on the choices she has and get closer to making a decision. So at this point, I did want to check in with user to see how she was feeling, and if she had gained any more clarity on this potentially looming decision. Will she go for the permanent role?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I should, I think I should, there’s still no guarantee. It’s not only my decision as to how this progresses, but I think I should try."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. All right. And so first of all, congratulations on getting to decision point number one, right? Question number one. How do you feel saying that, by the way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, comfortable is not a word I would use, but it feels… Well, I mean, comfortable. Come on. Who wants to be comfortable? It feels right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It feels right. Okay. So now the question then becomes, now what? What are you thinking in terms of how you put yourself forward or do you have any questions or concerns about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "While I’ve been thinking about this and I have gone back and forward over the last few months, if somebody had said to me, “Do you want it, would you go for it?” I think I’ve been pretty on the fence. And some days it’s yes, some days it’s no, most days it’s somewhere in between. I think the challenge that I have is that every month that goes by, I get better at it. And so the longer I delay a decision, the more likely it is to go in my favor if I do want to pursue the role. And so there’s kind of two competing timelines really where for me, the later I push that conversation, the more likely I’m to have really shown good stuff and be taken seriously as a candidate. The other timeline though is that I think the business are waiting for me to make a move because I went into the interim and said, “I’m going to do these things and I’ve done them,” and I had a really interesting discussion with my manager recently where they said, “Right, so that’s what you said you were going to do and you’ve done it. Now what are you going to do?” We were talking very practically, we were talking from a delivery perspective and a team focused perspective, but I heard a slightly different message there saying, “Are you going to make you move or not,” basically. So I think there’s an expectation they’re waiting to see, I think whether I’m going to push and whether I’m going to ask and whether I’m going to put myself forward assertively or not, because I think it’s going to get to a point where if I haven’t moved, they’re going to go, “Well, that’s not a strong enough signal that she’s interested and ready and willing to go for it.” So it’s about those two timelines kind of coming together and I think that’s going to be soon."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Well, I kind of hear it also, it’s about who’s going to wait it out the longest, right? On the one hand, you’re waiting to prove yourself quote, unquote to be good enough that they will naturally say you should be in the role. And on the other hand, they’re waiting for you to say, “I am good enough. I want the role.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And which one would you rather be in? Because you could play either way."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Definitely the second one, the business is not the kind of business where you wait for somebody to hand you something. If you want it, you go for it. So if I want it, and you’ve managed to make me say that out loud, Muriel, so if I want it, then I’ve got to go for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’ve got to go for it. Okay. And so what does going for it mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I’m putting an offer on the table. I think I’m saying this is what I want, this is my commitment, let’s talk about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think what I’m doing is prompting a conversation and bringing your decisions to [inaudible 00:42:48]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. It sounds like you’ve answered your questions."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What question still remains for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I think I’ve answered my question. It’s been really interesting. It’s been a really interesting few months and the shift to the permanent role, I think I have the right support from the team. I think the time’s right. I think it’s good timing. I’m not going to learn that much more by going beyond a year. Either way, I’m going to have an interesting conversation with my execs. And so I think that’s right. And the thing is, if the answer is not yet, that’s okay too. Because what that means is that they’re going to have to find someone pretty good to give me a run for my money. Really, I mean, I would be pretty disappointed for somebody to come in who wasn’t really, really knowing what they’re doing. And so what that means is if that happens, I’ll do a different interesting job. There’s plenty to do. I’m certainly staying with the business and learn from someone for a few years. The other thing that held me back, I guess, is I was talking to one of the other exec team recently who’s a bit further on in their career, and I said, “What are you going to do next?” And they said, “I might just start my retirement journey from here.” They were sort of saying, “Well, this is probably the biggest job I’m going to have. This is kind of me. I’m going to do this for as long as I want to do it, and maybe then I’ll go part-time.” They were on the other side, and that was a really tough conversation for me. I was like, “Wow, what do I do next?” This is the job that I thought I would have peak career, I guess. And so I think I’ve also found that a bit intimidating."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I mean, that could be it for you and it could not be. That’s his story. That’s how he wants to write his story. This is really about how you want to write your story, and I would offer you to take it one step at a time. See what happens with this one. They’re either going to say, “Yes, you’ve got the permanent role,” or they’re going to say, “Not yet.” Right? And then you can make a decision from there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. But you are a different person than your peer, and so whether this is the final chapter or not, who the heck knows?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I mean, I certainly don’t think so. It’s just weird to have… I’ve usually got something on the horizon and it’s funny not to have that. And I think securing this, if I do manage to do that, it’s a bit of a then what?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, I’m sure I’m not going to have to think about that in the day-to-day. I’m sure I’ll have plenty of other things to be on my mind, but yeah, it did cause me pause when we were talking about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That might be worth some reflection at some point. What is your bigger vision for yourself over and beyond this role? Where do you want to spend your career energy? What’s the impact that you want to make overall, regardless of where you are? And then asking, is this role if you take it on permanently, is it in service of that or how can it be in service of that? So that’s part of your homework. That’s the macro homework. Okay, let’s talk about the micro homework. So what are you going to do? What are your action steps coming out of this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I need to sit down and go, “Okay, so if this were mine and I knew it was going to be mine for the next 36 months, what am I doing? What do I want to do for the business?” And it’s funny because one of the things I said earlier in this conversation is I don’t know how to write a strategy, and that’s exactly what I would do to write a strategy, isn’t it? Okay. But I just haven’t been doing that. Interesting. Sit down and go write year one, year two, year three in the role so that when my boss and my board will say, “What would that mean?” I have a really clear answer to say, “If you give me this opportunity, this is what I’m going to do with it.” I think that’s the first thing is to get really clear about my pitch. How am I going to pitch myself to help them understand that really they should be giving me this opportunity? And then the next one is just to get that… I mean, I’d probably talk to a few people I trust about that and get some feedback and make sure that that was in touch with the business like we’re big, complicated beast in some ways, and it is really easy to be out of touch sometimes and if you’re not thinking or talking to the right people. So I think checking that with some other functional heads and people outside of the company as well. And then it’s scheduling a meeting, working through the other details. What do I want? What do I want in terms of package? What do I want in terms of commitment from the business [inaudible 00:47:52] resourcing against this work? What am I looking for in return? And then scheduling a meeting, making the case."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, and what’s your timeframe?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would want to be doing it in the next month. I would like to have a decision within the next month on that, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Well, that sounds like a commitment to making a decision if I ever heard one."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it’s good. I mean, yeah, we’ve got a pass. Which is funny because I feel like I’ve gone round and round and round and round and round on this months. It feels really good actually to have something defined."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And sometimes we just have to put a stake in the ground."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, no, it’s good. It’s good to feel like we’ve got a stake. Totally."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good. Good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One word that describes how you feel now versus how you felt at the beginning of the conversation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I feel determined. I don’t know whether that is the right word. That was hard to get me one shot at that. It could be the term that it could be I feel a little bit lighter, like sort of having a plan is good, just kind of having something to pursue and I feel excited."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Those are all good things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Those are all good things. Terrific. Thank you. Thank you so much."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When we’re faced with a tough decision in our personal lives or at work, we can often get stuck, ruminating over all the pros and cons about the possible choices we can make. Sometimes the root to clarity comes from really unpacking the uncertainty of it all and recognizing what is at the root of the ambivalence. It’s about undoing the knot of the back and forth with yourself and keeping your values and long-term goals in mind. Remembering those guideposts and breaking the decision down into easy, digestible thoughts goes a long way. And so does doing your homework, taking the time to think through your questions, talking it out, writing down what you want, because even a decision with a deadline, like choosing whether or not to commit to a permanent role, still takes some time. And for those of you wondering, user did make her choice. She reached back out later to let us know she is in fact now in this role on a permanent basis. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Want more of Coaching Real Leaders? Join our community where I host live discussions to unpack the coaching sessions. Become a member at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find me and my newsletter on LinkedIn at coach AI. Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe, sound editor, Nick Crnko, music composer, Brian Campbell, my assistant Emily Sopha, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners, who share in their journeys. If you are dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show next season. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com and of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward, share it with your friends, subscribe and leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. From HBR Presents, I’m coach AI. Until next time, be well."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "He’s a leader with a growing team, and he enjoys people management. But he’s struggling to influence those outside of his team and build trust with stakeholders. Host Muriel Wilkins coaches him through developing some of the skills he needs to gain stakeholder alignment while driving for results."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call user to protect his confidentiality. He’s someone with a background in manufacturing and logistics, and really enjoys the problem solving aspect of his field."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that the idea of working with so many variables, because logistics is truly a very multi-variable complex problem. There’s so many things that can go wrong, so many inputs along the way, and I think that ability to diagnose all of them at once and then create a 10,000-foot strategy, logistics was just a fondue of defects to go hound."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user was an individual contributor for some time and a few years ago he started managing teams, just a couple of team members to start, but that number grew quickly and the new challenge of managing people has been highly motivating for him, but what’s been a bit harder is managing the people around him that he isn’t directly responsible for."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What I think has been the harder part actually is the stakeholder side. Now that I have to coach individuals and not have direct contact to the stakeholders they’re dealing with, that has been, I guess, a longer learning curve. I mean, I think I still have a long way in people management, but I think I’ve been able to make a lot of changes along the way that I’m seen the benefit and the results from that. It’s how I’m able to indirectly coach towards those stakeholder relationships that is taking longer for me to be truly effective in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user is an avid learner and has thought a lot about how to adapt his leadership style. I wanted to get more into the specifics around the problem he was facing. So I started by asking him what specifically about stakeholder management is he hoping to improve?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think for me it’s to understand what are the tool sets we have to influence stakeholders. Tying this a bit to a goal, I’ve been almost surprised and perplexed by, as an IC, you’re measured a lot on your own results, your own ability to be right and act quickly. And as I’ve gone into this role and I look forward to the next level, it seems very much like, and maybe you could validate a bit that my performance now leans a lot on my ability to work with stakeholders and bring results, whereas before it was my own doing. So I see that as a key cog of what are the tool sets I have to work effectively, influence, and sometimes even gauge when I shouldn’t get in the way with stakeholders. That feels like a true director VP skill that is very critical."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, look, I don’t know the exact responsibilities of your role, but in general, I would say as you ask, validate whether this is true or not. I think in general, the more you’re leading at scale, the higher the level of complexity. And one of the areas of complexity is the number of relationships that you now have to manage and influence. And as you pointed out, some of them being direct relationships, some of them being indirect. So you almost want to think about it as a web. And if you’ve ever seen a spider, what do they do? Do they weave a web? I don’t know. They do something, they create the web, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m thinking that’s a Charlotte’s Web, but it starts off small and then it gets bigger and bigger and actually more complicated. But there is some order to it,"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, it sounds like what you’re experiencing is as you’ve moved from getting to results through yourself now having to get results through others and by others, it’s not just your team members, but it’s people who fall outside of your team."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right, so tell me why this is a challenge right now for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think before I saw it very much bifurcated into leadership would come to me with a problem I needed to go solve and it was in my own skill and will to be able to accomplish that. What I’ve noticed is now there will be other projects or initiatives where another team owns them and I find out through updates from my team of where we are in something and my knee-jerk reaction is, we need to course correct or we need to move more quickly, or we’re approaching this in a way that won’t reap the optimal results. And how I’ve encountered those interactions as in always led to aligning in maybe a combined opinion or approach or course correcting. That’s what is my struggle. How can I decide to probe or question or take over or provide direction in more effective ways? That’s what’s really a hurdle in my job today right now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Let me just make sure I’m getting the scenario right. So you run into situations, your team shares with you, hey, here’s what’s happening. You’re like, wait a minute, it shouldn’t be happening this way. Or why is this happening this way? We need to fix it, course correct, and we need to do it quickly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So your understanding is you need to fix it and it needs to be fixed quickly. And then you go out there to the stakeholders and you’re like-"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The second degree stakeholders."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To the second degree stakeholders and you’re like, “Hey, hold up. We need to fix this and we need to do it quickly.” And then what happens? What are you you faced with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So last year I think that the sentiment was I would come in and sometimes I would bulldoze the initiative into a certain way and sometimes the team would go along the stakeholders and the results would be positive, but I would lose trust in the process because of the bulldozing. That then meant in other initiatives, there was a lot of pushback. And so slowly I’ve noticed that my approach, although sometimes would again reach good results, would be encountered with pushback because of that bulldozing, I don’t know what better word there is for that, that forceful direction, if you will. And so since then I’ve been consciously trying to step away from that overpowering direction and I’m trying to figure out what are the other different approaches that can still yield speed, maybe not as fast, but still relatively fast without losing trust and treating everybody like a team. Definitely something that’s very important to me, but it wasn’t coming across that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, it wasn’t coming. So what would it have looked like if it had come across that way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think sometimes it can be perceived that I’m not listening and instead I am too focused on this approach and this answer. That’s I think something that I’ve definitely noticed is by changing instead of directing, asking questions and probing, that in itself forces more listening as opposed to more talking. So it’s been attacked, I’ve been focusing on a lot. And then something else is a lot more one-on-ones, right? Especially in a remote or dispersed environment, making sure you spend the time to not only in bigger forums, but in one-on-ones individually, create a relationship and understand where each individual is regardless of the level. Those are two things I’ve been implementing a lot more and they’re helping. So I think what I’m trying to get out of this and other mentorships is what are other things I should focus on to expedite my ability to do this better?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, this is what’s interesting to me. So what you’re saying is, okay, if I listen, right, if I listen and I ask questions and I focus on the possibilities rather than being tied to my way of doing it, so I engage other possibilities, other solutions, and I have one-on-ones with these critical stakeholders, then I seem to be able to influence them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It just takes too long."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s a great summary, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And when you say it takes too long, what’s the hurry?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "What is the hurry? Everything should be fixed yesterday. I think that’s the hurry. There’s so many problems. It’s a Santa laundry list. So there’s always a focus on fixing all these defects for customers, for operators, for suppliers. So there’s always an eagerness to move very quickly. It’s that startup energy no matter how big the company is. So I think it’s almost a self in post speed, but that is the situation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. That is the situation, right? I mean, I don’t even know what to say you said, and I think in all seriousness, I think the question is you’re sharing that everything needs to be solved yesterday, but according to whom?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that’s a good question."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, look, every morning on school days when I wake up, I am ready to get my kids to school quickly. One of my kids has a different agenda. We both agree school is happening and that’s where we’re going. The difference is our conception or perception, I should say, of how quickly that needs to happen. And what do you think ends up happening as a result?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There’s a dispute of how to go about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I feel like it’s a dispute."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, there you go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Depends how the person responds, right? So, my stakeholder, my kid, right? Respond by just being like, “Why are you getting so stressed out? We’re good.” I don’t need to be there on time. So that’s one response, another response could be pushback. There are a number of different responses, but the point here is there’s misalignment around timing. And so the level of urgency that you have is not a shared level of urgency. So I know you’re looking for tactics, but I think what you have framed before around, hey, when I listen, when I do what works in terms of influence, and you name them, I think what’s not working is the timing that you have against that, which is the urgency level. You see it as urgent. How do you determine what’s urgent and what’s not urgent?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some shape of entitlements, I guess meaning some metric we can impact. Or sometimes metrics can hide that even if something doesn’t happen as frequently, when it does happen, it’s catastrophic if you will. So weighing those two things from all the problems we have, which ones have the highest impact or can be the most catastrophic. And honestly, number two with that is only enforcing speed. When I perceive feasibility, I know there’s an actual solve we can do within the timeframe that may be a self-imposed to me, that’s how I deem something urgent. If it’s extremely critical from an impact perspective, but it’s not feasible, it’s important then not urgent using Eisenhower’s matrix. That’s how I’ve traditionally approached that. It’s feasibility and level of impact to a metric or an anecdote."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Level of impact. You’re defining impact as the results, the level of impact it has on the final metric, on the final performance?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. Say like meeting deliveries on time to say that if we can make a dent to improving that, to having more deliveries on time, then that would be the level of impact."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And then the other feasibility is can we do it within this amount of time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. And there becomes the great discussion of scrappily or scalably."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user has been drawn to his roles in part because of his love of problem solving, of finding ways to do things more efficiently and effectively. What he’s running into is the fact that that kind of efficiency doesn’t always apply to all situations. He’s recognized where trying to push things forward without buy-in has held him back in the past and is looking for better ways to build that buy-in, especially with people that he can’t give directives to. Next, I think it’s worth taking the time to better understand more about the interactions and relationships he has at work and how his words and actions might adjust to get the results he wants. Let’s jump back in. When you talk to your stakeholders about impact, do they speak the same language in terms of impact? Do they see the same potential catastrophe that you see?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not always. As many other companies, very metricized organization, which sometimes, although we want to try to take into account all of the customer impacts, all the operator impacts from all over the project, sometimes some teams focus on the responsibility rightfully so. And so it’s sometimes hard to gauge, say, my team’s impact with this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, when you tee that up to them, you’re not going to get into specifics. But how do you tee up the impact? How do you make it make sense to them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t spend enough time sometimes there trying to run to the root cost there. Sometimes say I’ll also bring a metric, but sometimes the metric is just a metric if they don’t know the experience that my operator’s undergoing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Or how it’s going to impact them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I think there’s a bit around are you framing the impact in a way that’s going to resonate with them? Going back to the example, the personal example I gave, if I tell my child, hey, we’ve got to hurry up and get to school because I have a meeting to go to, I mean, what do you think my kid’s reaction is?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They’re not going to care."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And? So what? I guess you’ll have to figure that out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, a big part of being able to influence is how you frame your message and the framing has to be in a way that is relevant to the person that you’re trying or the group that you’re trying to influence. And so, my question would be, have you thought about how do you define the quote-unquote “impact” in a way that actually they can feel right because impact is something that they’re going to feel, or even though you might be seeing it as a potential catastrophe or risk, do they see it as a potential catastrophe or risk? And if not, then what is the risk to them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s a good question. I’m reading right now, what is it? A book that talks about the elephant and the rider, so influencing through the logical and the emotional side. So haven’t quite gone through it, but it’s great to hear that you’re talking about that it’s not just about the logic or the metric. How do you make them feel the importance and understand your impact on your side beyond just a metric That makes a lot of sense."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right. I mean, it sounds to me like what’s happening is you’re going to them and saying, “Hey, we’ve got these measures that we need to be able to meet – my team, user’s team has to be able to meet – and because you’re not course correcting, it’s going to hurt us.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And while that’s true, I don’t know if that’s giving the effect of the message that you want, which is that you want them to move, which means that you have to find out how to make it important to them. Meaning how does it impact their metrics? How does it impact whatever it is that they’re working on? And frame it from that perspective."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Almost create that attribution between their world and my world in some shape or form."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Exactly. And if you don’t know what that is, what do you think you can do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think at that point, what I would do today is schedule some brainstorming session to understand how our processes are linked or not linked, and try to figure out that connection. Because if they’re not linked, then there’s a bigger problem at hand, I would say. But traditionally it’s been more they are linked, we just haven’t assessed in what shape or form. So that would be my first gut feel is to meet and dive deeper into the situation before we step back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And so here’s the piece, here’s the difference between leading the situation that you’re in and managing the situation that you’re in. Managing the situation is something’s gone wrong and now we’ve got to figure out where the intersections are."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Leading it is before anything goes wrong, you’re taking the time to sit down with your stakeholders and figuring out how do you define success? Here’s how we define success, where are the intersections and here are the potential risks that might come down the pike. How do we want to deal with them? And so you are creating or making explicit the interdependencies between you and your stakeholders, rather than wait till it’s very clear that there’s independence and you’re then trying to create the interdependence."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I like the way you framed it as well there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What is it that you like about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Often to your point, we wait for a misalignment. I don’t even want to call it a problem. Something doesn’t really need to break, but we wait for that misalignment to happen to then react. And at that point, the self and post speed means there’s no time. I think by you framing that, maybe even before the project truly starts, or as it’s starting, that’s when you actually make the time. And that’s usually when you actually have the time to do this. So I think it’s alluding more to the, am I being proactive enough about aligning and sharing everybody’s top priorities, impacts all those things and how they’re connected and then going to solve the problem. Sounds like that will ease and expedite problem solving when it arises."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I love that you said it’s about being proactive. That’s exactly what it is. I’ve been a little obsessed with, I don’t know if you know Dr. Peter Attia, I think that’s how you pronounce his last name. Anyway, he’s a doctor. He’s just written a pretty fantastic book. I don’t know if it was just written, but a book called Outlived, and it’s about basically increasing your health span rather than your lifespan. And he talks about how medicine is very reactionary. You wait till the disease pops up and then you treat the disease versus being preventative, which is let’s prevent the disease and even more so not even preventative, being proactive, let’s figure out what are the things that are occurring in your body right now that show a high probability or enough of a probability that if it’s not dealt with now, it will end up at that course correction point, which is what you’re facing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So we don’t want to wait until the disease pops up because guess what? When the disease pops up, it’s actually been in the making."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For some time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For some time. So those situations that you’re facing where you’re like, “Oh my God, it needs to be fixed yesterday.” The reason why you’re feeling the urgency is because you didn’t do the work earlier on in a proactive way to say, well, what could pop up and how do we deal with it now? So that’s the alignment around the impact piece, which is the first variable that you talked about, being proactive around that. The second piece is the urgency and the fact that you are operating with, it needs to be done yesterday, it needs to be fixed yesterday, and that part of that is based on feasibility. So if I understand what you’re saying is if it’s possible to fix it, then we should do it right away."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then there’s my expectation that we should be doing it right away. Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. And where does that expectation come from?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess just years in the making of the ability to put it together extremely quickly on my own then is now we should be able to do that. With my team, that’s the fun part because that’s how I get to develop my team and that’s what I truly love doing. I then get to recognize where do we need to go fast and then teach after we launch something and other instances where I say, no, we can actually forego speed for the development play here, but it’s all within my scope, so I get to control it or take accountability for speed or quality, so on, and so forth. When it’s external stakeholders, tough is I believe I can do it. I believe maybe even my team can do it, but the responsibility to do it lies outside of my purview. So that’s what makes it tough, that feasibility, knowing we can, but it’s hard to enforce or make it happen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, I mean, I’m sitting here thinking like, huh, what are all the things that I think are feasible but yet not happening?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s a lot. I bet too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And is it because something is feasible that it should happen? So is it that if I just take your rule or your mantra that, hey, if I can do it, then A, everybody else should be able to, we can do it and we should do it because it’s possible and we should do it quickly. If I take that, then I would have my whole company running marathons."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Even those that have never run, but I’m like, but you could do it, so we should do it as a rule. So how is that rule working out for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it wasn’t working out effectively last year, I would say. And so now I stop myself and I ask myself, is this one of five things? Is this something I should not interfere regardless of feasibility? Is it something I need to probe and just question to see if they arrive at the same conclusion? Is it something I need to direct as opposed to question, just tell them what needs to be done and how to do it. Is it something I need to take over and do it myself? That has been, I probably want to say the last three to four months, what I’ve been really focusing on is no, the expectation of everybody running a marathon, it’s not a scalable, a healthy or a good expectation. It’s figuring out when to pick the battle. And then the next step of that is how to then approach the battle in one of those four or five ways that I’ve been focusing on because to your point, it wasn’t working."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Okay. And I love that you have a framework for yourself and a checklist because that in essence is you coaching yourself through those different scenarios. I still think there’s a bit around the urgency, how fast something needs to be done. You could, it sounds like that’s what you were doing is approaching everything as the firefighter who leaves the station. It doesn’t matter what call they get, they leave and it’s like the siren is going… They’re going fast."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Go put the fire out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Regardless of whether it’s the cat up in the tree or a real disastrous apartment building that’s in full blaze. But once they get there, they make an assessment of, oh, how urgent is this truly? And what do you think they make that assessment based on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Like you said, how many individuals are at risk from a life perspective. So it’s I think tying back to those metrics, but then refining that really well to just, what is that one thing? If there’s individuals at risk, that’s assuming the one thing they look at, right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right. So urgency for the sake of urgency is, I mean, I don’t know, I don’t know what that is unless that’s the definition of your role, unless you’re a sprinter or a race car driver or anything where literally the key to their success is going fast."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And everything that you’ve articulated, it doesn’t sound like it’s that. It sounds like it’s more a matter of what’s showing up is urgency on your end, but what seems to be underlying it is what is the level of risk?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. Yeah, I think it’s an intensity thing. I’m the kind of individual that every time I go run, I always run at the best speed. I just ran last time to try to improve upon. A previous manager told me, some things are built in your DNA, just don’t let them be a problem. So maybe my urgency and intensity are just in me, but I need to assess that life-threatening piece more adamantly so that my intensity doesn’t become a problem, which it was before, and I’m trying to, I guess, dissipate that problem."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, and look, I mean, I think I’m going to just tweak a little bit about is it part of your DNA, I think it’s something that has served you well. It’s something that has led to a lot of your successes in your career, particularly as an individual contributor when you were one, which you’re not anymore, and it has served you well in running because you said you’re a runner in your, I don’t know quite how old you are, but I can see from talking to you, you’re probably a few decades younger than I am. It has served you well in the stage of running of your life that you’re in now. And so I think you are holding on to something that has served you well up until now, and now it’s okay. I know I can do that, but what other approaches will help me be a more well-rounded runner into the future, a more well-rounded leader as you scale. And so if we use this metaphor, it sounds like you’re a sprinter, you run with a lot of intensity, right? The research shows you also need to be able to do endurance. You need to be able to have the easy days. You need to be able to, as they say, slow down to get faster. And the same goes with leadership. There’s intensity and then there’s times where you have to slow down to get to the results to make the overall better. And I think that’s what you’re experiencing is how do you slow down when it comes to being able to get to deliver results,"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it’s everything you said, listening, asking the questions, et cetera. So if part of it then is picking your battles, how are you going through that part of the process of deciding when you take the intense urgent route versus deciding if you take the slower, less intense, more unfolding, more collaborative route?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Before it was my gut feeling, I think now I meet with leaders above my level, spread out across the organization to gauge how they see a situation, if we’re making enough progress, and sometimes I outright ask, do they believe more teams need to get involved like myself to expedite support? So as opposed to leaning on my gut, which meant a lot more things needed to be with that urgency, I try to lean on leaders meeting in a lot of one-on-ones with them, and then I consolidate and I stack rank against if multiple leaders mentioned the same thing or area, then that is the highest urgency. I think what that’s also cost is a top down. Hey, DIEGO’s going to come talk to you. So they’ll tell their teams, hey, maybe we could be doing this faster. DIEGO can come and help you. That has been helpful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how’s that working for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Much better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Much better?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Significantly better, yeah. It’s also helping me understand those leaders and how they’re prioritizing, right? I think my goal, a little bit of an output from this is what they say, the proactive and the field approach. My goal is for me to be able to diagnose proactively more accurately, here’s the only things I need to have urgency, and bringing that to those leaders and being on point there, that would be I think, a key outcome. And now if they come and tell me, hey, no, there’s another one, then maybe I correct it too far. So I think that’s what I’m trying to gauge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. What’s interesting to me, user, is we started the conversation with you saying, hey, I want to figure out how to manage my stakeholders more effectively. And I agreed. I was like, yeah, stakeholder management. That’s what this conversation’s about. As you are sharing what you’ve tested out and trying to see whether it’s working or not, and you’re saying, yeah, it is working. What’s coming up for me and reflecting back what you’re doing is that there’s a difference between managing your stakeholders and engaging your stakeholders."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I think what you have just shared is what happens when you actually take a stakeholder engagement approach, you engage those individuals in the problem solving rather than manage them to a particular direction. So it’s almost like I would offer to you to think about things in three different ways. One is it’s a self-driven approach, meaning you decide and you just do it right, which sounds like what you were doing earlier on."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then there’s a stakeholder management approach, which is you decide, you know what needs to be done and you try to get people there, you manage them, put them in a certain place, talk to the right people to make it happen. And then there’s a stakeholder engagement approach, which is, it is more of a collaborative figuring out of what the impact is, how you define success, what do we think is urgent versus not urgent? What are the interdependencies?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that makes a lot of sense with the engagement piece because it goes back to the little things I’ve been doing of listening, asking questions in one-on-one is figuring out how to double down on that. I think if I do engage more and do it more proactively, I think my propensity to have to do your first two of self-driven or stakeholder management should reduce. I think that would be the goal, which means that that is only the true firefighting as opposed to everything being firefighting. So that model makes a lot of sense."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And so try it out, experiment with it. I do think that stakeholder engagement is generative, meaning if you can do it enough times, it creates its own momentum so that when you do need to come in with the like, “Hey, we need to move on this, and it needed to be done yesterday,” you’ve built enough equity that people based on your track record may attach to it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Go along with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Go along with it, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. You can spend a couple of trust bucks on it because they understand where you’re coming from. Yeah, makes sense."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Exactly. Versus being all the time there’s a fire, there’s a fire, right? You don’t want to be… There’s so many stories about that us growing up, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I was going to say, yeah, I’m just crying wolf all the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Crying wolf all the time. You don’t want to be that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Definitely not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You don’t want to be that, you want to see that there’s a real wolf and make sure that it’s real, not just real for you, but real for others too. And that’s the part around how do you frame it up in a way that makes sense for others."}, {"role": "user", "content": "With the feel, the engagement, and the proactive aspects, I think what I’m really taking out of this is, to your point, the number of times I’m going to have to spend those trust bucks or have to yell wolf is when there’s really a wolf there that must be addressed, which means also I’ll be able to spend more time in more other things. So it’ll have a ripple effect for sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At this point in the coaching conversation, I might typically start transitioning into looking at practical steps or actions that the leader might want to take going forward. But in some ways, user is already doing what he needs to do. He’s seeing behavior that doesn’t work well, and he’s adapting to different modes of working with leaders and as a leader. So, I wanted to go back to some of the internal reflection that user began the conversation with around his intensity and his passion, because as he tries out new approaches to gain stakeholder buy-in, it’s also important that he remembers his authentic values, what drives him and where his value add is. Let’s dive back in as we work through some of his internal motivations and how they might present differently going forward. My question for you is, you mentioned that you innately feel this intensity, that it’s part of what brings the excitement and the going for it, the attitude that you bring to it. So, my question is how do you manage that for yourself, that intensity, that high level of intensity while doing all the things that we just talked about, which is 80% of the time, let’s just say you’re slowing down externally with the stakeholders."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think I’ve found that solution yet of how to manage my own intensity. I try to read a lot of different articles. There was recently an article in Harvard Business Review about the no pay, no gain, give it 110%, that’s the old mentality. The new mentality should be, hey, how can you do your best work? It’s when you’re giving it 85% effort. Reading the article, I was like, I don’t do that, I just put my intensity elsewhere. Whether it be at work or even outside of work. I run more, I do all these things. So managing the intensity is something I haven’t figured out. To be really honest. It just goes elsewhere. It’s a little bit of just water on a pipe that just finds a way to go elsewhere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And listen, I appreciate that honesty and I appreciate the awareness around it. I think it’s important, particularly as you grow as a leader, that there is congruency between what’s happening externally. Meaning if externally you’re saying to your team, hey, we need to, and I’m just saying for simplicity’ sake, we need to slow down. We’re going to take this in a less intense way. If you’re saying those things and acting that way externally, but internally there’s still this high level of energy intensity. Oh, it’s going to show up in some way and it doesn’t serve you well or it’s not going to serve the stakeholders well, something’s going to break at some point. So this is not about getting rid of your intensity. I think it’s how do you make sure that the level of intensity that’s required of you externally is aligned with the level of intensity that you feel internally for that particular situation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I think this is a little different than you just need to not be in touch."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I need to seek to understand what is the… sometimes I also label it passion, I guess. What is the level of passion that’s needed for me from this individual in this situation? And then knowing how to communicate it and orchestrate it to meet that need in that situation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s interesting to me that you use the word passion though. What’s your definition of passion?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I guess that is rather ambiguous. I think I work best in greenfield environments as opposed to more established, more mature environments because there’s so much to fix. And so if I find a greenfield area that I am excited about, I will want to go and work on all of it and fix all of it and make an exciting vision strategy that I know we can come to fruition in five to 10 years, and then that means in the next five to 10 years, it’s just going to be chipping away constantly at making that happen. That brings me a lot of energy and excitement, and it comes across as the let’s go, but all the time. So I think the passion is in fixing something I really believe in and being very excited about it all the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the question really for you becomes, can you be passionate about something, and believe in something, and be excited about something, and not feel a high level of intensity towards it? Which if you didn’t feel intensity, let’s come up with another word. When you’re not intense, try to imagine that one time, user, when you don’t have that intensity, how would you describe it? What’s the adjective?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The first thing that came to mind honestly would be bored."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "If I am not excited or I’m not intense, it’s because I’m bored with the idea of it or how it’s being approached. So it is very much a zero to a hundred and nothing in the middle. So, yeah, bored would be the easiest way word to come up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And so we don’t want you to be bored, although sometimes being, I mean, I don’t know what does it mean to be bored sometimes? Maybe it makes things clearer, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what would be the alternative to feeling intense around it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that to your point in some of the best moments with a bigger scope in which you really shouldn’t be intense about everything, which I think is what you’re trying to chip away at here, is when you just pause and try to collect yourself and understand the situation, listen to stakeholders, that cool, calm and collected approach, lets me do two things, understand the collective path forward and how to empower people to make it happen. So I have noticed that when my intensity is too high, it doesn’t let me do that well. And I think now, for example, at the next level, the director level, when you’re managing hundreds of individuals in a very big scope that’s needed, and your intensity should only be one or two things at most at one time with such a big scope because you need to be cool, calm, and collected to know how to empower the hundreds of people that are working to make those things happen. So I think that would be the opposite of intensity, I guess, is when I’m not there, I need to be cool, calm and collected, but with the purpose of empowering people. Whereas intensity usually comes with, I still own some ownership of something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So it’s at a hundred."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. And that means if my team or myself owns something, intensity starts creeping in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So when it’s all on you, you’re at 100 with intensity."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then there’s this thing of, if I’m not intense, if I’m not at a hundred intense, then I’m bored, and it might mean that I’m not passionate about it, and it’s not even like what are we doing, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And I think what you just said maybe, or I don’t own it, which maybe at that point, bored isn’t the right word, like you were saying, but there’s just something different of if I own a percentage or cut of something, intensity is there. If I don’t, I’m not excited about the problem statement, then that is when I’m not intense."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, here’s the thing, right? The more you lead and the more you lead at scale, the less you own."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right? I mean, in a different way. And so part of it is as you grow as a leader, you are going to have to figure out how to be comfortable with not owning everything and still retain the level of passion and excitement and energy that you bring."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, the formula that you’re using, it just doesn’t carry, it doesn’t carry over. And I’m going to backtrack a little bit on what I said. Like I said, “Oh, what’s the opposite of intensity?” And I think as you’re talking, what might be more useful for you is think about levels of intensity, almost like a scale. I don’t know if you play any instruments."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I play the trombone."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You play the trombone? Oh my gosh, I’m acting like I know a bunch of things about the trombone. I don’t, but my son plays at saxophone, so it’s same little family, but they’re scales and I hear him playing scales all the time. And I’m sure when you practice you have to practice playing scales. Scales are different notes. There are different scales to your intensity. It doesn’t always have to be on a hundred. And what it sounds like is the level at which it needs to be is not only determined based on your level of ownership, it’s also determined on the others and the level of risk and that beautiful criteria approach that you outlined earlier in the conversation. And so part of what I would encourage you or offer you to do is to start thinking about what are the different scales of intensity?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, the scales of intensity is something I hadn’t thought about. That’s honestly why I wanted to come and talk to you, because I think it took me too long to realize this approach that you said I mentioned earlier. And so what I wanted to get out of today was what are other things I need to keep in mind? I think the scales of intensity is something I hadn’t thought about. Becoming disattached with owning is something that I think as a people manager, it’s when you get your truly first taste of needing to do that, but it’s within your team still. So there’s some attachment still there. So the level of intensity with the attachment, knowing how to do that I think is what I really need to focus on. And if I do that now with the proactive approach that you mentioned earlier, it means now I have multiple concepts I get to use as I go through that. So that makes a lot of sense."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Beautiful. Beautiful. And look, detaching does not mean you don’t care."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s not make attachment and holding onto it and owning it and having to choke hold it till the end equate this shows that I care about the results. That is not it. All right? I think what you’re understanding through this and what your approach is giving you is actually if I give it room to breathe, if I give it a little more space through time, and I take the time to have those one-on-ones and the listening and all that, that actually also shows that I’m engaged and I care. It’s just a different level of on the intensity."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. No, that makes too much sense. And sometimes you don’t have that framework, and now that you put it this way, I usually use post-it notes as I’m trying to work on something, I’ll try to figure out what are my scales of intensity, look at a situation and look at my post and I’ll be like, I’m going to use this one. And then usually what I honestly do is a little bit like biohacking. I will write down how it’s been going week over week and see and adjust that barometer. So I’m almost very excited about trying this out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I love it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In real time in some meetings."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right, great. So I think we can wrap up and you’ve already laid out an action plan. I love it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A 100%, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mastering it. I think that’s just again, the urgency and the expectation person, but I’ll work on that. But I’m excited about the proactive focusing on the field, this level of intensity piece. Definitely the next tool sets I think I needed on my end. And maybe to your point, they weren’t tactical things, but there were things of how can I be a better leader on a day-to-day basis? Thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. No, thank you. And when you get those post-it notes up, take a picture and send it over to me. I’d love to see what it looks like."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Definitely will, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Want more of Coaching Real Leaders? Join our community where I host live discussions to unpack the coaching sessions, become a member at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find me in my newsletter on LinkedIn at coach AI. Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe; sound editor, Nick Crnko; music composer, Brian Campbell; my assistant Emily Sofa; and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. If you are dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show next season. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward, share it with your friends, subscribe and leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. From the HBR Podcast Network, I’m coach AI. Until next time, be well."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "He took a less traditional career path to college and law school. Now he’s successful as a lawyer, despite several job pivots.  But he is still missing meaning and connection in his work. Host Muriel Wilkins coaches this leader through defining his purpose and how that can translate to his work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call user to protect his confidentiality. He’s taken a non-traditional career path by pursuing his college degree later in life."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I started undergrad at 30 as an experiment. I think at 30 years old, you’re pretty well-rounded in the sense that you have a good sense for yourself, and I just never, I think maybe I didn’t grow up with a lot of family members that have advanced degrees, education was never really a focal point. Income was a focal point, but not education. And I was also riddled with anxiety. The thought of being in a classroom and somebody calling on me was very scary, so I think by labeling it an experiment, it allowed me the space to fail. I went in with the assumption that I would do well, but left myself the doorway with which to escape if needed, if it wasn’t going well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That experiment went well for user and opened him up to other career possibilities."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just threw the doors off of what I wanted, and just started really focusing on what I could do. When I started thinking about a career path, I was like, “Well, if I could do anything, what is it that I would want to do?” I really strongly considered the MBA path, and being a little bit more of that entrepreneurial mindset, but I’m also extremely risk averse. And so, recognizing that in myself, I was also thinking, “Well, maybe law school is a good idea, so I could help business owners in the same way that I had, to some extent in my former career pathing, but do so in a way where that risk aversion was a part of the plan.” So, I wrestled with those ideas and landed in law school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user went on to get his law degree and worked as an attorney, which he didn’t find very satisfying. He’s moved to another organization in the legal sector, but in a capacity where he’s not practicing law. I started our coaching conversation by asking him about how he’s feeling about his role, and what’s happening in his career now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s a good question, “What is happening now?”, Muriel."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nothing. I feel like I’ve got to this point and it’s not the thing. It is a thing, it is a thing that allowed me to leverage my degree and my experience and not feel like I destroyed all that by pivoting again. But I recognize that it’s not the thing, but there’s part of me that says, “Well, you can’t just keep pivoting every two seconds until you find the thing. You need to settle in and make a living and rise up through the ranks and continue getting promoted,” and so I think what I’m really finding myself in is this spiral of uncertainty of, where do I go next? What is the next step in order to stop the pivots, or stop the continuously looking at the next thing? I think it was like Mel Robbins was like, “You don’t put all this work into something for nothing. You didn’t survive this long in order to be unhappy,” and it’s not that I’m unhappy, but I do recognize that this is not the thing that I want to be doing for the rest of my life. And so, I think that’s where we’re at now is, what’s next?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What’s next?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Where do we go from here?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, goodness gracious. I don’t know, user, where do we go from here? We’ll try to figure something out. Okay, so how do you know that this is not the thing? This isn’t it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of it’s this voice in my head that I think I’ve recognized being there since I was a kid that was like, “You will feel successful when you feel successful,” if that makes any sense. So, it’s that emotional connection to what I do is what I’m missing. I think that I thought with the practice of law that I would be helping businesses and helping others succeed in what they do. I thought that would be the emotional check that I needed. But what I found was I was just lining other people’s pockets, not making any difference, I was just making people richer. And that was uncomfortable to me. And I think a lot of the reason why I didn’t have the emotional connection to the practice of law. In my current role, I am lucky in that I do have more of an emotional connection because I do get to help others in their career progression, that is really rewarding to me, but it’s not the right emotional connection to the profession that I feel like I need in order to make this the thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm. Okay. And so, if there was an abundance of emotional connection and not a lack of, what would that look like? Describe it for me."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I go back to prior to this journey, one of the jobs that I had, it was a small business. I was really emotionally connected to helping the owner get her business to be successful. I was connected to her, I wanted to see her succeed, and so I put in a lot of extra time and space that I wasn’t necessarily being paid to do in order to help achieve her dream of what the business would look like. That was so strong an emotional connection and a charge that even on days when I hated what I was doing, it was enough to make me really smile, get up and go and do the thing, because I knew that what we were doing was the really good stuff and we were really creating something. That is the abundance of the emotional connection that I’m looking for is that ability to wake up in the morning and say, “Today’s going to be a really hard day, but it’s not hard for me to put a smile on and do it because it’s worth it, because we’re doing the right thing,” and I recognize today, that though I love my team, I actually really, truly love the firm that I work for, on days that are hard I get up and say, “Today’s just going to be hard,” and I can’t kick myself out of it because I don’t have a connection to something in order to pull me through that. So, I just spend the next two days boiling over how unhappy I am in the role."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m going to kind of break it apart a little bit because I think what I’m hearing you say is you’re seeking the emotional connection or the emotional response to something, and that emotional response is, as you put it, “It brings a smile to my face because I know why we’re doing it,” or, “If I don’t agree with it or it doesn’t have that thing, then I spend two days, three days boiling over.” So, there is an emotional reaction that you’re having when something is there or something is not there, okay? So, the emotional connection in the way that you are describing it is more of a reaction rather than the thing itself. And I think we need to get to, what is the thing? All right? I’m going to ask you a question, which is, in that situation that you described when you were helping the business owner, I think get their business back up on their feet, is that what it was?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pretty much, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How would you describe the meaning that you got out of that? What was the purpose of it, at the end of the day?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "How would I describe the meaning? I think it is the recognition that there was something else there to be done, a hole that I could fill. It felt somehow unique to me. The person that I was, the knowledge that I had, the skills that I had, what I was bringing to the table was the right peg to fit the hole in that environment. And I think that, connected to my actual emotional connection to the individual person, those two things put together, created. I think that thing, that connection or reaction."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And so look, what I’m asking you to describe is not… Because I hear you trying to figure out the words to describe it, what I’m asking you to describe is nothing concrete, it’s something intangible, I’m rubbing my fingers. It’s a sense that we have, it’s an energy that we experience. The challenge is trying to understand, what is it that creates that experience? It’s no different than, I don’t know about you, but I can go to one event and come out of it and be like, “Oh my gosh, that was great,” and people would be like, “What was so great?”, I’m like, “The energy, the energy was so great,” and then I can go to another event and I’m like, “Oh, wamp-wamp,” right? What was it? It could have been the same people, same venue, but there was something different. It’s the energy, it’s the experience that we have, how we experience it. So, part of it is what you bring to the table and the other part is what are you going to. And when you describe what you are uniquely bringing as the peg that fit nicely with the hole. The hole is [inaudible 00:09:42] there was a need that you were fulfilling. So, how would you describe in, again, going back to that particular situation, what are the needs that you feel you are uniquely constructed to fill, from a professional standpoint?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My varied experience based upon what I’ve done from a career standpoint over the course of time, but also the resiliency that I have established or built over time because of the things that I’ve tackled in my own personal and professional life, I’m able to use those as tools. I think that is the hole that I’m most able to fill. It’s harder for me to create a sign and hold it out and say, “I’m looking for this,” because I don’t know when those types of environments create themselves, because it is really unique, something as intangible as you were saying, but intangible as resiliency, as grit, as pluck, as the things that I really do think are some of the benefits that I bring to the table, but are harder to define in some respect."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, what’s interesting to me is I asked you, what is the need that you’re looking to fill, which is something out there in terms of what you bring. What you described is, “Here’s what I bring,” and of course when we have certain attributes that we have and we’re able to use them, it makes us feel good. And so, your ability to put that in service is important to you. What I’m getting at is, in service of what? Because that’s the meaning. Why is that important for you to have resilience for you to bring that personal and professional experience to bear? How is that important to anyone else but yourself, or how can it be of importance?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think when I felt that there was some connection there, it’s been in areas where… Yeah, I don’t know how to describe it. The way that the question is presented, I think to be completely honest, it has me spiraling into this, “What if there isn’t anything to bring that to? What if that’s just some sort of personal thing that you’re never going to be able to connect to something, and you’ve been looking for nothing for who knows how long?”, and this sinking feeling inside that suddenly, I can’t even think straight because I’m worried that I’ve been searching for something that doesn’t exist."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user, I think you’re giving yourself that escape hatch by doing that, so let’s assume that there is something. This is quite the existential question, right? Because we’re talking about meaning. There’s a fantastic book called, In Search of Meaning, and I think at the end of the day, what you’re describing is that: what is the meaning of the work that you want to serve? Because what you have tried out so far isn’t it. The fact that you have pivoted many times tells me that there’s a belief that it does exist, you just haven’t quite grasped it. Here’s the thing: when it comes to figuring out what the meaning of something is or looking for it, we define what the meaning is. It doesn’t come to us in this gold or silver platter. You define what’s important, you define what is of significance, you define what is worth your time, and then you go look for opportunities that reflect that. So this is not a trick question what I’m asking, it’s a challenging question because most people don’t really think about it, but understanding and anchoring around for the sake of, what do I bring these things? What is it that I’m trying to fulfill? What’s the need? What’s the pain point that I’m addressing? Why do I do what I do? And how you define that is totally up to you. I can’t define it for you, but how you define it is totally up to you. And then once you define it, then we can say, “Okay, well then where do you express that?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When I say all of that and interrupt hopefully the spiraling, how does that land with you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "What it reminds me of is one of the experiences that I had in that small business environment was it was a creative industry, it was people that were expressing themselves, and while I did not come from a, “let’s all go to school and get advanced degrees,” background. I did come from a, “let’s create an express background.” And so, even though I consider myself to be a creative in some sense, but I speak creative more than anything else, and I think that is one of the elements that I had in that scenario was that I was the, this is really over-blowing it, I’m not trying to paint myself as this hero in this picture I was not but I was the business side of the model that needed business in order to be successful, surrounded by creatives and trying to interpret that language and that environment, and focusing it in order to make sure that the right decisions were made in order to support it. That was something I identified and that you reminded me of in saying some of the things that you said was that being the interpreter of the creative environment from a business standpoint. That is something that quite frankly I’m longing for, is to be back in a creative environment. I label myself a creative, but I do not do a lot of creative things in the sense that I don’t draw really well, or sing, or anything like that. So, I think my lack of expression of that creativity, I get the benefit of that being surrounded by creative people because I get to have the vibe. I still get the environment, and can speak the language but don’t have to do it. So, I think that is certainly something in the next step that I need is this reconnection to me as a creator."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sometimes in my coaching sessions, it takes quite a while to get a true understanding of a person’s background and the work problem they’re facing. This time around, we really dove in fast. And that’s in part because we’re coming at a leadership challenge from a different angle. While many coaching clients come in to talk about a specific incident or a specific tension with a colleague, a tangible example of something, and then eventually we zoom out to the deeper questions. I quickly got the sense with user that this time around the deeper question is the main pain point. He’s seeking purpose in his work that he isn’t finding so far, despite a number of pivots. And having that purpose in mind is important. Because it really helps guide your career decisions from an intrinsic standpoint rather than only based on external data. Talking about purpose and meaning can feel really ambiguous. So, it was important that I also make it concrete for user. We started to dive into more of the specifics he’s looking for from a job and how he might start getting there. So this is great because I think you’ve knocked out two out of the three elements that I would encourage you to look at in terms of figuring out what’s next for you, whether next is possible where you are or next is somewhere else. Okay. The first is, what environment you operate in. And you’ve just articulated it, like creative environment. You are aligned with being in that type of environment. So that’s very specific. Environment is one thing that you want to look at. The other thing that you want to look at is, what are the types of activities that you are primarily involved in through your work? Are you aligned with those? And I say primarily because it’s never going to be 100%. And from what I hear in terms of what you’ve said is there’s something around helping create, organize out of chaos. Organize and bring structure to problems that arise. What more can you say about that? What do you like to engage in at work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Anytime I’m given the opportunity to pick up something that’s been lying there, either because it’s too onerous to deal with, too complicated to handle, not enough people. Anything that’s been sitting there that needs life and direction, that’s what I like to engage with. To put my energy into something to get it off the ground and moving forward. So, I find myself in a professional environment oftentimes picking up the things that are outside of my silo. So I do find out that I spend probably a good chunk of time, probably a third of my working time, doing things that aren’t necessarily aligned in my job description that need to get done because that actually does more closely connect to this idea of, as you articulated quite well, of pulling the chaos together. So I do tend to lean more towards projects that allow me to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this word project is very important. I learned a long time ago, actually, I learned this from another coach, around being able to differentiate in terms of the scope of your work and the time horizon with which you can deal with whatever it is you’re working on. So when you think about projects, they tend to have a shorter time horizon, and it’s more around, hey, there’s a beginning, there’s an end. I see what I need to do. There’s a deliverable. Something needs to be fixed and then it’s fixed or something needs to be built. Whereas something that’s not a project is longer term and might be iterative and it might be cyclical, and we go through the same things over and over again, maybe growing over time. So I hear a couple of things in terms of activity, fix things, build things, project oriented, all activities. So if we lump that together with the creative, we’re starting to come up with a story. I think the piece that’s still missing is for the sake of what? What does this serve? What is the itch that you’re trying to scratch? So maybe I can give an example. Let’s see you say something that’s more creative, actually. You talked about being around creatives. And what kind of creatives? Is it artists, visual artists, musicians? What are the ones that you tend to be drawn to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Musicians and visual artists more than anything else. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Musician. Why do they create music?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it connects with them. They are expressing themselves. They are connecting with others through a somewhat magical connection of unspoken beauty. From my point of view, from a creative standpoint, it is about the expression. It’s the ability to get it out in a way that speaks to other people and can be appreciated. And there’s probably an element of what you’re leaving behind."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So let’s just take that. You said in their profession, if I decided to become a musician, I might find meaning in it because one, it gives me an opportunity to express myself, bringing what I have to offer, to bear. And the second is, that music that I create has an impact on others in the way that they experience it. One of the words you used is beauty. Everybody can experience music in a bunch of different ways. But really the notion is, it resonates with someone in a particular way. So when we bring those two things together, the ability to express oneself while at the same time having an impact on the other, there’s meaning there. It makes sense. At the end of the day, why do we need meaning? Because something has to make sense. That’s the reason we look for meaning. That’s what meaning is. When you say what is the meaning of this word, you’re saying, how do you make this word make sense to me? So that’s what we’re looking for you. What is it that you want to express through your work, which the more business-y way of saying it is, what is the value that you bring? That’s one part of the formula. And the other part is what’s the impact that you’re trying to create? How do you want people to experience it? What difference does it make? So when I break it apart like that, what’s coming up for you on both sides of the equation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe this is me trying to create a trap door again, but I think my first reaction is, I don’t know. I don’t know what I’m expecting. I think I get the, what am I bringing to the table. I think I understand and I can make that argument. But I don’t know for what? Maybe I do. But I think where I’m stuck, is that all these pivots, the pivots happen because at the time, the thing that I think is the what for, is the basis of those decisions. And then I get there and I’m like, no. That wasn’t it. So now I think I’m completely second guessing myself as to what for, because every time I made that decision along the way, it has turned out to not be the decision. Gosh forbid I actually use that as a teaching moment of saying, well, maybe it’s cumulative and you needed all those experiences to get to where you are, but my mind doesn’t tackle it that way. It’s like, no. You just messed up again. And I think that’s where I’m at now is that, it doesn’t matter… I need to be able to move off of that in order to come up with the what for."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, I mean there’s no messing up here. I think it’s really around… There’s no way you’re going to be able to say, “Oh my gosh, that’s it.” And you know for sure that’s going to be 150% it. You don’t know until you’re in it. Going back to the example of the musician, I mean, look, I’m going to the Beyonce concert. I expect that any song she puts out I’m going to love. But I don’t know. You don’t know until you actually hear it. And then you hear it and you’re like, “Huh, I don’t know. I don’t know if I’m going to love it.” So that’s the experience part. So, you are creating hypotheses when you go in and say, “Hey, I think that’s what it is. I think that’s where I’m going to be able to make the impact that I want to make,” which we still haven’t really defined what that impact is. But I think that’s where I can make that impact, and that’s where I want to make it. But then you don’t really know if it’s going to land in the way that you want it until you’re in it. So I agree with like, hey, maybe this is the time that you should be thinking it’s cumulative and over time you learn more. Yeah. I think that that’s what it is. So in those past experiences when you thought, hey, yes, this is where I can make the impact, what was your hypothesis around what the impact was that you were going to make? How did you define it back then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it’s a really good question because I think I have tended in the last few times to make decisions based upon more about what I felt like I was getting out of it, more than what I thought I was bringing to it. Does that make sense?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It makes a lot of sense. And I think that’s that other side of the equation that I’m saying we don’t have clarity on it. Not just what you’re going to get out of it, but what are the ecosystem that you’re in? What are they getting out of it? Which is the impact? What difference does it make whether you’re the one that’s there versus the one that’s not there? What’s the dent that you’re making? And that’s the little piece. My hypothesis is that that’s missing. And quite frankly, I think you’re at a place where it’s like you have to decide what’s the dent you want to make. And it doesn’t have to be permanent. It doesn’t have to mean it’s the same dent for the next 40 years. But at least for now, for the next, that’s what it is, until you start seeing a pattern like yeah, you know what, this is it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The first thought that pops up, as you were saying that was the sense of, I think that’s why I thought what I’m doing now would be significant because I get the change or the thing I was trying to bring to the table is helping other people. I thought it was just helping other people. Helping other people move their careers forward, move their goals forward. I do get a lot out of it. But I think what I’m missing is those are very limited engagements. It’s coming in, getting them to the next stage of wherever they’re looking to… Helping them, not getting them, helping them, supporting them as they make those decisions. And then it’s over. And then I move on to another one. These limited engagements where I feel like, as you were just speaking, what came to mind was maybe that’s what I’m actually looking for is the same thing but over a longer course of time. A larger project, a bigger something that doesn’t take just a little bit of what I can bring to the table, but takes a significant amount of time and effort and knowledge and stretch thinking to excite me, to keep me motivated. That’s the thing that I’m looking for."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. And just to make sure I understand, it’s helping other people move towards their goals and move forward. Is that in a specific area or in general?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the specificity is less important than it being somehow connected to me. And that sounds really self-centered. But what I mean by connected to me is something that drives me emotionally. Not that it’s about me, but that I get excited about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, when you do that and you’re helping other people get towards their goals because you come in and apply your magic and are able to create something from nothing, what’s the impact on those others? What difference does it make for them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because I’m envisioning this in various areas, I think it’s hard for me to define it, what it brings to them. But I think providing an environment where you’re delivering something that is helpful, whether that is a new program or a new system or a revised tool. Whatever that happens to be. But something that is useful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, you want to make sure it’s useful and helpful. So we’re starting to get some pieces together. All right. Let me just play back what I’m hearing. Be in a creative environment where you can offer your ability to fix things, build things, bring something from something that might not exist and bring it to fruition, in service of helping others get closer to their goals, whatever their goals might be. But their goals have to be within an arena of something that is important to you. So it could be in an organization as long as you feel like your organization has a mission that you’re aligned with. And you want to be able to do that over the longer term, not these very short term types of projects. Out of everything I’ve just said, what’s missing for you? Not in terms of where you are, but in terms of your, I don’t quite know what to look for."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know that I’ve ever thought of it in the complete thought, to be honest with you. What I can’t help but to get stuck on is how."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Kind of make that happen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, I think if you start going to the how, you’re not going to complete the thought. Because the how, if it trips us up, it’s going to keep us from completing the thought. And what I mean by that is, sometimes I start to think about… Well, actually, this happened this past week for me. I was like, I am going to clean and purge my closet out. And then I didn’t really think about what I wanted it to look at. I immediately went to how am I going to get this done in the four hours of free time that I had?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No closet cleaning?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No closet cleaning was to be had. So as much as I am tempted to go to the “how” with you, I’m going to keep us accountable here. and keep us focused on the what with a promise that we’ll get to the how. Okay? But let’s not let the how trip up the what. And I think you’re almost there on the what. Remember how I just said with the closet, I was like, “What’s the goal?” When you’ve had those moments where you do feel like this is what I’m supposed to be doing, such as the example that you gave with that one business that you worked with, and even when things aren’t going great that day, how did you know when you got home that night that, you know what, user, you say to yourself, “Job well done. I did what I was supposed to do today.” How did you know that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was easiest for me to see through others’ eyes coming home and having the person that knows you best probably say to you, ‘Oh, you look so bright,” or, “You’re so cheerful when you woke up this morning,” or reflecting it back on me, that’s how I knew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because I don’t think I always recognized it on my own, but it was easier to see when reflected to me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I’m going to just offer you a thought that if you rely on how others reflect, whether you’ve done a job well done or whether it’s of significance or a meaning for you, it’s going to be very temperamental. Okay? Because what makes meaning for you is what makes meaning for you. And so what I think, this sounds really cliche, but this is that North Star that everyone talks about. I think that’s really where you are. It’s finding that North Star, finding that purpose, finding that meaning that no matter what happens, as long as you’re aligned to that, you’re good. And I might be saying it in a very simplistic way. What you’re dealing with is not simple. There’s nothing easy about it. That’s why most people don’t get to it and then are like, “Oh, my God. I’ve spent a whole career hating what I do.” But if you can figure out what that is, and then make your career an expression of that, it’s not even really about passion. What I do, not to make this about me at all, I’m very clear about how my career serves me and how I serve my career, and what it is an expression of. And that expression, quite frankly, I do it in this career as an executive coach, but I also pretty much understand that even if I wasn’t an executive coach, I’d still be doing that thing. It could just be in some other career. So I’m career-agnostic. It’s more like, “Am I making sure that I’m serving that North Star or aligned with that North star no matter what I’m doing?” There’s a consistency there. And so what I feel like has happened to you is, over time, you have found different pieces of the puzzle, but they haven’t all come together as one. One piece of the puzzle is working with creatives. Another piece of the puzzle is helping others or organizations reach their goals. Another piece of the puzzle is it being long-term. Another piece of the puzzle is what you bring to bear in terms of your skills, your attributes, your experience. And then the one little piece that I think you have experienced but you just can’t articulate it I just said is like, “For the sake of what?” Again, going back to like, “What is the impact I’m trying to make? Am I trying to make people healthier or am I trying to make organizations more profitable? Am I trying to help individuals, one-on-one, achieve better career results?” You pick. There’s no right or wrong. You pick. Really, it’s a huge field of flowers that you can pick, but it’s honing in on which flower do you like best that aligns with who you are."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As I pulled out more details from user about what he enjoys in his work, what he’s liked in the past, and what he might be missing now, we dug further into the deeper question he’s come to the coaching session with. The North Star, as I’ve said, is something that a lot of people never figure out, but user is getting closer. We just need to do a bit more work to make sure we have all the pieces we need to start to put the puzzle together. And since we explored a fair amount in one direction and he hasn’t quite gotten to an answer, I decided it was time to try another approach. So, I reframed the question and asked user, “When you’re at work, what are the specific kinds of problems that you really enjoy solving?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it’s the things that people have given up on or that have no resources. I’ll have to talk to my therapist about that one. I wonder if that’s some reflection about something else in there, but-"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I won’t ask."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But, no. It’s the things that, not necessarily the things that nobody else wants to deal with, but the things that don’t have the resources or that people are like, “This is just not going to work.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. If you work on those things, what difference does it make?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The creativity that I do have sees what it can be and uses that as the reason why it should be picked up and given resources."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. I mean, there is a story there. You’re the guy who picks up the things that may have been left behind or that are under-resourced, and you figure out a way to make something out of it that adds value, that people then want to, or organizations then want to actually use. And that has meaning to you. I can feel it. I can see it in your face as we’re talking. It’s important. I mean, you tell me. I’m saying it’s important. But why is that important to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because I think it provides an opportunity to take something that already exists and use it, recycle it, if you will."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what if that doesn’t happen? What’s the problem with that not happening? If you walk in and you’re like, “There are things that are under-resourced that are not… Nobody’s picking them up, nobody’s fixing them, nobody’s creating something out of them.” Why do you even care?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s a missed opportunity with resources that have already been deployed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, what? What’s the big deal about missed opportunities?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s a waste."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And? I’m [inaudible 00:39:08] my shoulders. What’s wrong with a waste?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My brain isn’t putting the words together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What’s your emotion telling you right now? Let’s take it out of the brain. What are you feeling when I say that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s the potential."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s the potential. What about the potential?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s the abundance of opportunity that something could be, and all of the benefits you get from that, lying on the floor because nobody wants to deal with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you will."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I love it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. All we’re looking for is the story. There’s no right or wrong. And I’m hearing a story. Not only am I hearing a story, I’m feeling a story. Okay? And the story is… I’m not going to hesitate on what I’m going to say. I know. It’s like, “Damn it. How dare we leave this potential just laying there? I don’t believe in wasting resources. I don’t believe it. And so, I want to do, what’s in my power,” and I’m speaking as user, right? “I want to do whatever I can in my power for us not to waste resources, particularly if there’s huge potential in them. And so whatever I do, I want to make sure that we are using resources in a way that fulfills potential, that we are fulfilling potential, whatever that potential might be. It might be in people, it might be in organizations, it might be in programs. But I am the guy who’s all about making sure we’re not wasting resources, particularly the ones that can fulfill potential, because it’s important to me and I think it’s important to others.” So when I play that back to you, how does it land with you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because what happens, user, is like when I ask you what’s the itch that you’re trying to scratch, most of us find meaning because there’s something that we see. Right? There’s something. And it might not be bothering anybody else, no, but it bothers us. And that’s the need. We see a need or we feel a need. Or sometimes you might… I don’t know if you’ve ever been someplace and you’re like, “Do you smell that?” And everybody’s like, “No, I don’t smell anything.” I’m like, “I smell it. I smell it. We got to do something. I have to do something. I have to do something.” And that’s okay. But then we make an impact. That’s how we make it done. You say, “Oh, I’m going to work on this stuff.” We haven’t gotten to the how yet, but at least you have a theme. And I think what’s important here is as you start looking at what’s next for you, it’s whatever other career opportunities that you’re going to approach, do they give you an opportunity to address this theme? Is it a place where you can actually scratch that itch? And if it’s not, then it’s probably not the right place for you. And it doesn’t mean you need to be scratching it all the time, but a good proportion, enough of the time. So then you feel like you’re fulfilling, you’re experiencing where there’s a good marriage between what you bring to the table and where there’s a need."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And I think perhaps some of the frustration that I have is I do see little snippets of that in what I do. And I think that’s it, I’m not doing enough of it-"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re not doing enough of it. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "… in order for me to be engaged."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And you have to do enough of it. But not just that, you want to do it in a space where it’s dealing with creative people, we’ve already established that. You want to be able to do it for an organization potentially that you believe in what they’re doing. So now, you’re pulling together little ingredients in the recipe versus saying, “You know what? As long as there’s cinnamon, I’m good.” Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right? And then I bring you something, you’re like, “Ah, I forgot to tell you I don’t like apples” I’m like, “All you said was cinnamon.” Then it’s like, “Okay, what do you like?” “Oh, I like oranges.” “Okay, great.” So, then I just bring you the oranges and you’re like, “Oh, but where’s the cinnamon?” “Oh, yeah, I forgot. Okay, cinnamon plus oranges.” So, what we’re doing, I think you’ve had bits and pieces in this cumulative career path that you’ve had, and now it��s like, “Okay, how do I, just like a visual artist, bring all the pieces together, the color, the paint, the vision of what it looks like?” So, play back for me what you are gathering, and then we’ll move to the how. What you are gathering are your list of ingredients for what possibly could be a fulfilling career position to be in right now. What are the different components that you’re picking up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I need to be in an environment where I’m surrounded by creatives, where I’m able to apply my experience and skill to bring to life or otherwise see missed opportunities or under-resourced opportunities that I can help to grow and create my own in an environment where I feel an emotional connection or some positive connection to the organization and what they’re doing and the space in which I have the time to truly put all of my effort and all of my resources into developing or spending the majority of my time doing those projects."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. I mean, that is a pretty rich picture. So now, let’s talk about how do you make that happen? And I know earlier you said you’re getting a little stuck on the how do you make it happen. What part of the how are you getting stuck on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think there’s two pieces to it. One is, in spite of me being convinced to myself that I have the resources and transferable skills in order with which to do these things, I think it’s harder to always convince others that that’s the case. And I think having spent a decade in law, when I look into creative industries outside of something that’s legally based, I don’t think I’ve had a lot of luck getting traction in general. That is the one how piece that I get hung up on. I think the second how piece is I let that hang me up. I walk into that thought process with a chip on my shoulder, which always stops me from… Not stops me, but it certainly becomes a barrier with which I have to deal with. I think that’s the big thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One is a practical, like, “Yeah, how do I now make what I’ve done transferable to potentially another environment and get people to buy into it?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then the second is the story that you tell yourself about that practical thing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Pretty much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. I know. The stories we tell ourselves. Well, let’s start with the practical one first. I mean, first of all, I think the place to start, and what I want to give you kudos for is the reality of like, “Yeah, you are going to have to persuade or get people to see how what you bring to the table can be relevant to them, even though it’s being transferred from a different industry.” So, yes, that’s the reality of it. And is it possible? Absolutely. That’s number one. It’s possible. It’s done all the time. Number two, do you need a whole bunch of people to be persuaded? No, you only need one or, hopefully, two, so you get to choose. All right? So, I think it’s really the question, are you willing to put in the effort that it requires in order to make it happen, in order to get to a place where you can tell your story and try to, for lack of a better word, sell yourself. Or is it like, “I know it’s possible, I’m hearing Muriel, but do I really want to do that?” And you have to answer that question before you go down, because it is more of a process than just saying, “I’m just going to go get a job.” It’s more like, “How worth it is it to you?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I think as that relates, the desire, and the ability, and the resiliency needed to do that, I know that I have, and I am 110% sure that I can do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, I feel like there was an and-"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was an and. But it goes to the next thing. The barrier that I have is keeping the steam to push through the chip on my shoulder. But what I have to keep reminding myself is that, sure there have been pivots along the way. But each of those pivots seemed equally as insurmountable, and I had the similar chip at the time on my shoulder to going into them. But I was able to identify what I thought made the most sense, and push through the chip on my shoulder in order to pivot to something new. So, as I’m thinking about all that, what comes up in my head is, “You just got to keep doing it, this is no different.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is no different."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This is just another opportunity for you to identify what the next best step is, and get there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I feel like you are basically living the mission and the purpose that you want to bring to our organizations. You just said to me, what you want to do is go in and find the thing that is resource, but people it’s laying on the floor. But you see the potential, and you want to take that and create it into the potential. Well, I feel like that’s what you need to be doing with yourself. You have the resource, you’re seeing the potential of what you can do, and it’s like, “Okay, be the thing that you actually want to bring to organizations.” I’m sensing there’s this parallel path going on. All right, so this chip on your shoulder, I’m not dismissing it. The chip can stay there, but it doesn’t have to dictate what you do next. And in fact, it hasn’t. It’s trying to, by telling you, “Don’t try again.” But in those moments, we say, “I got you. I’m still going to keep going. Because I haven’t quite found or created the thing that I’m looking for.” That’s a difference too. A distinction. I think you’ve been like, “I need to find the thing.” And I would encourage you, because of the posture that you bring, and what you’ve shared. I think it’s more about creating it. And so what does that mean in practical terms? What I would suggest as an action item is that story that you told me, the components of what you think would be fulfilling for you. Again, our hypothesis as an actionable item. I think one of the places to start, is come up with your list. You’re not looking for a job. We’re not even there. All right? Not looking for a job. Trusted colleagues, people you’ve worked with, people who know you. And I would go, and I would say, “Hey, I don’t know what this looks like, what the organization is, what the position is or whatnot. But here are the ingredients. I don’t know what the final dish is, but here are the ingredients. I’m going to share with you what the ingredients, if you had these ingredients, what dish would you create? What do you think would be a good dish made up of those ingredients?” I think it would be helpful if you asked people, or you went in conversation, and said, “Here are the different components. What do you think a role could look like or the type of company, or where do you think something like this could exist?” And see what they come up with, because I think you’re at a place of really just brainstorming. So many different things that all of those components could make up altogether. So there’s a brainstorming element right now that I would encourage you to live in, versus looking for the one answer."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because I think there are a lot of possibilities here. What do you think?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I agree. And I think actually it’s the looking for the one answer that has inadvertently become the problem."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In what way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In some way, I’m expecting there to be some fairy tale moment where the clouds part, the sun shines, and there to be this thing that I walk up to, and we hold hands, and walk into the sunset together. And that’s not realistic."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, man. user, I want to be in that fairy tale with you, but no, I wish it were so. But you know what? I think the fairy tale of, “There’s a world of possibilities.” It’s way more exciting than, “There is, the one thing.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you know why? It allows you to pivot. It allows you to have that thing that you said you had had at the beginning. Which I think you sort of looked at it as a bad thing, but at the beginning of our conversation when you were like, “It gave me an escape hatch.” What if it’s not an escape hatch? What if it’s just like, it just gives you options. The ability to say, “Hey, there are a myriad of possibilities, and I’m going to choose to go from one possibility to the other till all the ingredients are fulfilled.” It’s one way of having a career path. Another way is to say, “I’m just going to do this one thing and that’s it. And I’m going to take this very linear approach.” Which by the way, it’s never linear, and just keep climbing, and getting the titles, and the promotion, and the thing. That’s great if that’s what works for you. But it doesn’t work for everybody. And that’s okay. You have to figure out what the right cadence is for you. So, that fairy tale of the one thing maybe hasn’t served you very well. Maybe it’s not yours."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So action item number one, come up with your list. Say, “Over the next couple of months, I’m going to talk to 15 people, share with them my list.” I think the second is I would take a hard look at where you are now, relative to the criteria, which is another way of saying the ingredients. Relative to the criteria that you have, and how does it line up. One is how does it line up? And then secondly, are there any untapped opportunities where you are now, that could fulfill those criteria more so than you’re currently doing? And that’s not to mean that you have to stay there, it’s just making the best use of the time that you’re there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Give it more meaning than what it’s giving you. What else do you think you could do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pulling together the ingredients in order to share them with others is definitely a huge part of it. But I think just spending enough time with what those components are on my own to really have a clear picture of what that means, is also important. So I think I need to spend some time with some of the things, some of the themes that we’ve discussed today, and see if there’s other things there. And really connect with what those elements and what those criteria are, so that I can live it, manifest it, believe it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right. And I would encourage you when you do that, to really stick to the criteria, to the ingredients, not the dish."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because I think when you start thinking about the dish, you start thinking about all the reasons why the dish can’t be made. So stick to the ingredients, and trust that the ingredients will come together. As long as you pay attention to all of them, you bring them all to bear."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, tell me how are you feeling now versus when we got started?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good. I feel it’s one of those situations where through our conversation, all these things have been in my head, or in my heart. And I think that almost caused me more stress to have them flying around. And our conversation has been able to really allow me to pluck things out of the air, pull them together, and start to really see a bigger picture. Which I think is really what I was missing. I was almost unable to move because I couldn’t see the bigger picture."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. It happens. But then you see it, so now you can move at least onto the next action item."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Thank you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot of people do at some point start feeling dissatisfied with their work. They feel like something is missing, and a lot of the time that translates into a job search to looking to find that meaning elsewhere. But they haven’t always taken the time to really articulate that meaning in the first place, to figure out what it is that’s important to them. I had to try a few different pathways, and a few different types of questions to coach user to that kind of specificity. Along the way, he was also able to start articulating more of his story, which is so important. That story helped him realize that he was getting little snippets of what he wanted, but not enough. Once we’ve laid that groundwork, then it’s time for user, or anyone else in this position, to focus on how the tactical parts of finding a role aligned with purpose. You have to take care of this groundwork first before making the pivot. Otherwise, you’ll just find yourself exactly where you were in the first place, no matter how many different roles you try on. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward, share it with your friends, subscribe, and leave a five-star review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Want to hear more about each episode? Join the Coaching Real Leaders community, where I host live discussions to unpack the coaching sessions you hear on this show. Become a member at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find more from me on LinkedIn at coach AI. And if you’re dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you, and possibly have you on the show. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe; sound editor, Nick Crnko; music composer Brian Campbell; my assistant Emily Sopha; and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations, and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys from the HBR Podcast Network. I’m coach AI. Until next time, be well."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "She’s a high-achiever who has defined herself through her achievements and promotions. But she’s hit some bumps in her career and she’s feeling less engaged in her work. Now she’s questioning the leadership track she’s on. Host Muriel Wilkins coaches her through defining what success looks like for her moving forward."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call user to protect her confidentiality. She cares about achieving success in her career and about the culture in which she works."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ve tried to maximize my impact, look for the roles where I feel like I can be the most successful and advance the most, while also having a really positive impact on the company that I’m with. I need to be strongly connected to the mission of my organization. When I think about the places that I’ve done my best work and I’ve felt the most engaged, I have that kind of dynamic duo of a place with a mission that I really believe in, and a team and a group of people and a culture that is one where I can really be myself, where you really feel like everyone has your back, you get to do the work that is mostly uniquely suited to your skillset and people are open and happy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user has always been a high achiever, from her time in school and throughout her career so far."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I feel like every sort of step of the way I’ve done the predictable thing or kind of the right path, right? I’ve gotten the promotion on the right timelines. I’ve moved up. I’ve continued to kind of take on increasing levels of responsibility, increasing spans of control in an organization and kind of moving up the ladder, if you will. I would say I have always been a high performer most of my life and my career, from a young age encouraged to always get straight A’s, to always go to the best school, get the best degree. And I’m in a very interesting place now, because I feel like that has been so core to me and I’m starting to feel like it’s shaking up a bit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user reached out because something seems off to her. While she feels she should pursue the next level at her organization, she’s also hesitating. And she’s not quite sure why. So I started the coaching conversation by asking her to share more of what she feels at this present moment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think during the pandemic, just pretty much every other company, we went through a lot of period of stress and a lot of very intense looking at our work saying, “Oh my God, we have to completely redo how we think of things, how we’re doing things.” Everyone was working incredibly long hours. And then, we got to the point, it didn’t feel good, around layoffs and consolidation of work, and then we found ourselves doing even more with less."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And when I took stock in there, I really saw all of the signs of burnout. And I felt just completely overwhelmed and that I couldn’t keep going and I needed to pull back. So I sort of did some of the things that I felt I had to do around drawing boundaries about what I was able to bring to the job. And they weren’t successful, quite frankly. I found that I got a lot of lip service about taking time that I need, but when it came to peer support and kind of the culture of the organization, it wasn’t there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I felt there were probably a number of missteps I made and didn’t feel like I came out of that supported, successful, or still on that kind of promotion track that I wanted to be in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then, as I’ve just been kind of looking around the company, I see a lot of behavior rewarded that doesn’t really align with my values. So while on a day-to-day, I can be happy, it’s increasingly feeling like a place that’s going to be really tough for me to stay on this kind of promotion track. So I’ve sort of gotten to a place where I feel like I need to make a decision. Do I sort of pick myself back up and get back on this promotion track, which really does feel like pushing me again toward a place where we might be approaching burnout, where I really need to give a lot of myself to a company that I’m not as enamored with as I once was. Or should I sort of break with what I’ve done my whole life and say, “Now is the time to prioritize my work-life balance. Now is the time for me to sort of step back, remain highly competent, a solid performer, but maybe not trying to just keep moving up this ladder.” And so, I’m here, one, to think through what does framing up that decision look like for me? And regardless of which path I choose, how do I best set up myself for success? If I’m targeting a promotion track, how do I avoid burnout this time? How do I reset after some misses? But then, on the other hand, if I do try to take a step back, we live in a world where that gets described as quiet quitting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right? How do I do that in a way that feels respectful, that resets expectations with my boss, and doesn’t make it feel like I’m over here trying to coast on the back of others?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm. Okay. I understand, I think."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What I’m hearing is up until a couple years ago, the predictable path was pretty predictable in terms of the results of it, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You did X, Y, Z, and lo and behold, the output was as expected, X, Y, Z, usually in terms of promotion, self-satisfaction from a work standpoint, et cetera. And then, things changed, right? Circumstances changed."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It wasn’t as predictable anymore, and the way you experienced that is starting to feel burnout. So you made some changes, created some boundaries, and lo and behold, the result of that is that it seemed like it wasn’t as well-received as maybe you had expected it to be."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And so now you’re trying to decide, “Do I continue or get back on this track that I was on before, which is gunning for the promotion, gunning for the advancement,” knowing that what comes with it or thinking that what comes with it is basically throwing away the boundaries that you set. Or do you maintain the boundaries, but your thinking is that means taking a step back from the career path. And if you do that, how will that be perceived?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, a couple of questions. I’m curious how you experienced burnout. How did you know that you were headed down that way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I started to disengage from the work, just sort of look at my list and go, “I don’t want to do any of these things. Not one of these things is motivating to me.” And then, I also felt myself not being able to show up at the meetings and spaces where I needed to be present as the version of myself I wanted to present. And that was usually because I was under-prepare, thinking of something else, and needed the work to be moving faster, so showed up impatient and showed up under-prepared and trying to move things faster than was probably appropriate. And as a result, I was turning off my computer at night not feeling good about the day. And that sort of entered me into this spiral of feeling like, “I don’t enjoy this work. I’m dreading every day that I sit down five feet from my bed and have to log on. And I’m not feeling the connection with my peers that I used to have.” And just feeling, like I said, a complete lack of motivation to do a lot of the work that used to excite me and bring me joy. I take joy in challenge and succeeding at challenges, and I wasn’t finding that anymore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And at any point, or even now, were you able to pinpoint what was driving the disengagement or the lack of motivation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think some of it was the quantity of the work. Some of it was the support from my manager that was not present. And some of it was the interaction with a few specific peers that was particularly strained and difficult."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, all three of those variables, the quantity of the work, increased quantity of work I’m assuming."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Lack of management support, and then difficult interactions with peers. Were these all variables that did not exist all along this path?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had never faced those?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably I had a lot of work. I think I’ve always had lot of work on my plate, but it has felt achievable. I’ve prided myself on being able to just produce a lot of output and being able to manage a lot. And at some point, it got to be too much. And then, these other things kind of exacerbated it. But specifically, when we had layoffs, I had a lot of work added to my plate from people who were laid off."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, when you then decided, “You know what? I’m going to take care of myself during this by creating some boundaries.” Can you just share with me what that looked like? What were some of the types of boundaries that you put up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most of them were time-related."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were, “I’m only going to work past 6:00 PM one night a week, and I’m not going to work more than two hours on the weekends,” which I felt was reasonable. I felt like I saw other people in the organization put those types of boundaries up, and I should be doing that as well. So that was probably the biggest one. I think there were other pieces around how I prioritized work that said, “There’s just some work that I’m not going to be able to get to. It simultaneously is not the most important work, and it’s work that’s not bringing me joy.” And so, that was a little bit of the other boundary I put up, but I don’t think I put that up as firmly as some of the time boundaries."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And then, what happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I felt like when certain work that was left when I either was struggling to get it completed or when I needed help, that I didn’t have a lot of the peer support there. The expectation was, “You should have done whatever it took to get this done.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or continued to work on that same level that I had been working at. And I think that it was more of just a complete lack of support or understanding that that was what these boundaries meant for me, was that certain things just weren’t going to get done and that needed to be okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So I’m hearing you say that it was like those boundaries were not important, that you should have gotten it done no matter what. Was that explicitly said or is that what you think was said?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was not, but it was evident in some of the feedback I received, that there were sort of veiled ways of saying that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. All right. And so, the expectation you think was what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the expectation was that I continued to do that work and shoulder that work, and that if other people… It kind of feels like our company has sort of two mindsets, really sort of framed like this. There are the people who show up just before 9:00 and they leave right after 5:00. There are those people, and then there are the people who you get emails from them at 1:00 in the morning, you get emails from them over the weekends. And so, it was sort of this sense of, “You should be in that second camp.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And if you’re in that second camp, maybe am I getting the camps confused. So many camps. If you’re on the camp who answers the emails at 1:00 AM in the morning."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What does that mean in your company?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s sort of what I’m seeing. It doesn’t really mean anything. Those people are not more likely to get promoted; it just means that they work more. And I think that’s one of the things I noticed, was there’s not this connection between how much you work and whether or not you get promoted. I think you probably don’t move up the ladder unless you do that, but doing that also doesn’t guarantee that you’re being seen as a top contributor and getting recognized as such. And I think that was also one of the pieces for me, is I wasn’t feeling like I was getting recognition for a lot of the things I was doing and how much of myself I was giving. And so, I said, “These are the things that when I look at the situation, I think are definitely needed, that it’s very clear that this part of the work is very impactful and is needed by other teams, and needed to do their work. And this right here, this tranche, maybe a couple of people think it’s important. And in the past, just because they wanted it done, I would’ve done it. But now, no. Just because two or three people say, ‘I need it,’ and it doesn’t to me feel like there’s a larger purpose for the work, I need to cut that type of work out.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm. I just want to take a bit of a step back, right, because what I’m recognizing also is that you were also very predictable."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In what you just said. “If somebody needed something done, I did it, no questions asked. It didn’t matter whether it was on the high value priority list or not, I got it done.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because you are the high performer who always got the A."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No matter whether it was advanced chemistry or PE. And I’m not saying which one is more important than the other. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, you sort of broke the predictability pattern, too."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And yet maybe, I don’t know, maybe a little assumed that they would respond in the predictable way, which is, “Hey, user. Great job. You’re such a trooper.” But they didn’t. They responded according, again, not saying it’s right or wrong or it’s okay or not okay, but they responded in a different way."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you responded in a different way. So there’s a lot of unpredictability all around."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you mentioned, “Why would I continue to do this if I’m not getting recognized, if I’m feeling burned out, if I’m just so…” That’s a great question. Why would you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "If I think about the company as a whole, there’s still a lot that I really like. I like the products that I work with. I like quite a few of the teammates that I have. And there’s a lot about my workplace that’s quite pleasant and that is enjoyable. And so, for me, it’s about reframing myself in that to say, “I thought I was part of a group that was kind of considered the elite performers and that were moving up the ladder to lead this company.” And now sort of shifting that, “Do all of these other things still hold true?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I still do a lot. I think a lot of what we do as a company is good, is positive, and gives me pride in what we do. And it’s still a good place to work. I think I still would, if I were on the outside looking in, would still pursue a career here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just often wonder if I were to start over again, how I would approach it differently? It kind of feels like I did all of those things you’re supposed to do in your first 90 days of kind of overachieving and setting your reputation. And I never stopped doing those. I just kept doing those, and I feel like no matter what, there are a lot of reasons to stay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I enjoy my job, I enjoy the work, I enjoy my team. And if I do stay, then it’s just about making sure that I don’t end up in some crazy spiral where I’m back on the burnout train. And how do I reframe it and rethink my years here to say, “What would these have looked like or what can they look like in the future, where I still feel the joys of success, the joys of contributing, and feeling like I am making a difference here without making it feel like the only way to do that is at a personal expense or at the cost of breaking boundaries that I’ve think I’ve set in good faith and for a very good reason.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So far in this conversation, we’ve been looking at the specific ways that user has felt burnt out. As someone who’s always checked the boxes, so to speak, always moved ahead in her career, she’s now struggling with whether that’s the track she wants to be on. user is clear on what makes her feel fulfilled in a job, and she also is able to acknowledge her longstanding need for achievement. But these two things seem at odds with each other for user. So I was curious about how she defines success for herself."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think in the past, I would’ve told you a promotion."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I think I probably need to go through that exercise of saying, “If you take that out of equation, what does it look like to succeed in my day-to-day work?” And I do wonder if I am in the right role in the organization for me to feel that way. I think if promotion is off the table, I wonder if the day-to-day work that I do and just kind of succeeding at that every day is enough for me to feel fulfilled or this is a job I want to have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s a bit of hedging that I’m sensing here, in that you’re sort of trying to paint the picture of, “If I make believe that promotion is out of the equation,” right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "“What would it look like? And would that make me feel okay?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I’m going to suggest that we start with is your definition of success promotion? And it’s okay if it is, it’s okay if it isn’t. I just think we need to nail that to sort of understand whether how you’re defining your success moving forward is the same as how you’ve defined it up until now, which as you said, up until now or up until recently, the way you were defining success was advancement and promotion."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, now going forward for whatever, X period of time, is that the success metric or is the success metric different?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And I think that’s hard for me, because I’ve always been in a role where every two to three years there is the promotion, sometimes even less. And I think early on in my career, one of my resume bullet points was “successively promoted three times in three years.” And so, I think that that for me, in every workplace I’ve been in has been the marker, the badge, the indicator. There was no sign of good performance without that conversation of what a promotion is. And so, up until the position I was in before I came to this company, that for me was the definition. So now I’ve been here, and because of layoffs, my work has expanded, but there was never that title change. And for me, that external sense, not external to outside of the company, but within the company, external to me or to my team, that badge that said, “Yep. We believe in user. We believe that she’s doing the job well and that that’s the right marker.” And so, I think for me, some of that is thinking through, “What’s that intrinsic definition? And what can I be satisfied with without that kind of supplemental thing.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s exactly it. Because I think what you’re basically saying is, “If getting the A is not a possibility, I don’t know if I can be motivated.” And what I’m saying is, “So what if grades were off the table?” They might be, they might not be. I don’t know. Right? But what if you had gone to school where there were no grades? You were there for other reasons, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What would’ve kept you motivated to work as hard as you did that did get you the A?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s so funny, my business school had grade nondisclosure. And so, I think even when I worked in the alumni group to talk about why that was so important to us, it was because it meant that you could just do so much more and be so much more exploratory. So for me, that meant really doing more. I started two businesses when I was in business school, because I had that freedom and I didn’t have to worry. And I never knew if I was going to get an A or a C. You showed up to class, you did the classwork, you learned as was appropriately motivated. You did the work up to what you felt was your standard, but then you had all this freedom. And so, I think to me, that even speaks more about why for me, the work-life balance then becomes so much more important."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because if it isn’t about the promotion and the grade at work, work starts to take more of a backseat of my life, because I have a lot of crazy fun interests. There’s another business on the side that I’ve always wanted to start or to run. There’s hobbies or my family that I want to be with and around. And to me, it then becomes about exploration, entrepreneurship. And so, I think either I need to tap into that in my job and say, “Where’s the space for me to have more time to explore that?” Or all the more reason why there needs to be that boundary up, because I need that somewhere in my life. And if it’s not going to come from work, it needs to come from outside work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand. I understand. And I think it is sort of a different version of the question, “If money was not a factor, what would you do with your life?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I think for you it’s if the grade was not a factor, if the promotion was not existent, there was no guarantee. It could happen, it couldn’t happen, but it was not a factor. You’re good. You already know that you are good career-wise."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What would it give you permission to do? How would it enable you to be?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I have friends that talk about having specific days of the week or specific pieces of their work that are dedicated toward passion projects. They have to be related still to what the company’s mission is and what the company does, but they can be outside of their day-to-day. I don’t know if there would be space or permission to do that at my company. I hope there would be. I think in general, especially if we compare ourselves to progressive popular organizations where people work, sometimes that helps. But I do think there might be an appetite to give that kind of freedom, especially if I can couch it in saying, “This is why. This is what I have spent some time thinking through and ruminating on and coming to the conclusion that I need this in my life. And is there a space for me to have it at work? I think it would make me a better worker. Or is this something that I need to find outside of work? And if so, here might be the implication for what that looks like about my motivation here.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe that’s going too bold. I’m trying to think through how my boss would take that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Look, that is a possibility for the conversation. And whether it’s too bold or not, I don’t know. I think it’s fresh in your mind right now, but I think we need to sort of, before we even start thinking about what the tactical conversation sounds like, it’s continuing to unpack this notion of if you gave yourself permission to think over and beyond the promotion, then how are you then defining success? In the same way that you did for business school, right? When it was like, “Oh, the grade, yes, it’s nice that it’s nondisclosure. Therefore, it doesn’t really inform one way or the other what’s going to happen next. It doesn’t inform what it says about me.” Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "“So, what are the other things that I’m going to focus on that will make my business school experience a ‘successful one’?” So when you think about your career path, at least for the foreseeable future, if promotion is not the leading indicator anymore or we’re putting that to the side for now, we don’t know yet whether it’s the most important indicator or not, what are the other possible leading indicators for you, that if I spoke to you a year from now, two years from now, you would say, “You know what? I’m feeling pretty good.” That are in your control."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the within my control is the tough part for me to answer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "If I think about how I framed this up at the beginning of this conversation, there were two big pieces that I said in the roles that I’ve been happiest in. The team culture is there and the mission is there. I think there’s a third piece around how I show up and being proud of the person I am at work. And I think that that comes from both the work that I am doing, whether it be the type of work that I’m working on or the company itself. And then, there’s also this piece of the culture. And I don’t think I can really at this point shape the culture. And there are some flags around our culture."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I don’t love that, but it’s like can I get past that if I’m doing work that I really love and have the space to not be overworked so much that I’m finding myself not showing up the way that I want to. So if success isn’t the promotion, to me, it almost feels like it’s the day-to-day. I don’t love being in charge of things sometimes. And I know that it’s really hard to get into the ins and outs of, “Well, that great idea that we went and did, that was my idea. I invented that or I thought of that.” While sure, that would be nice to me, I find that that type of culture that promotes those types of I statements are not a culture I want to work in. I want to work in somewhere that’s much more collaborative."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so, working on the things that are most meaningful to our company, the biggest strategy projects, “What’s the most important problem that this organization is facing and how am I helping them think through that and lead through that?” And so, I think I could probably try to position myself so that I am working on that type of work that brings me energy every day and excitement every day. And that sort of starts the wheel, if you will, of feeling good how I show up every day, and therefore producing good work. I feel like I’m in the opposite flow right now, where I don’t feel good about how the workday feels, and therefore it impacts my desire to do more of the work. And I want to be more in that forward flow that I feel like I’ve been in before, and that’s when I’m really at my best."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And I think let’s be careful of completely attributing how you show up and how you feel to the type of work that you’re doing and your circumstances, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because that completely takes away your sense of self, your sense of ownership. So while I want to acknowledge that it can be difficult to consistently, continuously be in an environment that may not align with your values, where the work is not of highest interest to you, how you show up, what version of yourself you bring, there is no version. You’re bringing yourself."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What you’re bringing at that particular situation is who you are bringing whether you choose to or not. So I think the question really becomes can you show up in the way that you want to, regardless of the circumstances around you? Or are you basically going to allow circumstances to dictate how you show up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I like that framing and that sort of push on me to do that. I do think there have been points where I have said, “I’m not showing up my best because that takes effort, and I’m too burnt out to put forth that effort. And I’m not feeling like the work I’m doing and the culture of the company or the people I’m doing it for with are worth it.�� And that was a pretty dark place, and I don’t want to be there again. But I want to acknowledge how much I do feel like I feed off of the energy either of others or of the work itself. And I’m not sure I have a clear picture of how to kind of still put on the rose-colored glasses if I don’t like the work and I don’t like the people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I get it. Look, I don’t think this is about putting on rose-colored glasses every day."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think it’s about waking up and deciding which color glasses are you going to put on, because it’s what you want to do rather than because you’re defaulting because of circumstances."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What I’m saying is what you just described in terms of a very dark time where you put up boundaries because you felt too burned out to do that extra push, that was a choice that you made."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that’s okay. I think the discomfort is that you made a choice, and then the result of that choice and the implications of that choice didn’t sit well with you, because they weren’t the implications or the consequences that you used to get."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s something that we have pretty much tattooed into my kids’ brain since the time they were born. We have always told them, “There is a consequence to every action. You choose.” Not, “You choose the action.” Yeah, you choose the action, but think about what the likely consequence is, and be okay with the consequence, right? Be okay with the likely consequence before you take the action. So it’s not about being okay with the action, it’s about being okay with the consequence of the action."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Everything is cause and effect."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could it have had a different effect? Absolutely. You could have walked in and been like, “I am setting up boundaries. I’m only working from this to this and I’m only working this much.” And everybody would be like, “Oh, my God. Thank goodness. Hallelujah. We’ve been waiting for somebody to take the charge in doing this.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And, “Oh, we’re all going to do the same thing.” Right? And it would’ve turned out great, but that’s not the way it turned out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I think right now the question you laid out of, “Do I get back on my promo path or do I take a step back?” Those are the actions. I think what you’re really trying to determine is, “Am I okay with what the possible consequences of those actions are, my hypothesis about what the consequences of those actions are?” And what I’m suggesting is the only way you’re going to try to hypothesize, I use the word hypothesize because who knows, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hypothesize whether you’re okay with them or not, is do they fit the definition of success that you have for yourself right now? It’s not, “Oh, I just need to have the rose-colored glasses on all the time.” It’s making the choice. So I said a whole lot. Tell me what lands with you there, if anything."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My family’s mantra is, “We all make choices.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hm. Good job."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I say that to people all the time. “We all make choices.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so, it does resonate. And I think it’s making me also think through the other side of, “Okay. You get on this promotion track and then you get a promotion and then what? Is this the hamster wheel you want to be on of, okay, so then you burn yourself out in your new role for two years. And then, you’re right back here of, Well, what’s the next thing? And so, I think I’m also probably at a point in my career where the closer you get to the top of the ladder, the further away the rungs are. I can’t necessarily assume that that is always going to be available to me. And so, I think it’s an important exercise for me to think through, what is my definition of success if promotion is no longer there? And I think that would be good for me to do, regardless of which path. Because even if the promotion comes, there still needs to be a definition beyond, “You got promoted, now you’re in this role. What do you do?” Because probably not another two years, there’s going to be another one and another one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user brings up an important point here about the reality that many people face the further they are in their careers. As you climb the ladder, the rungs get farther apart. While many high achievers might be fast-tracked earlier in their careers, it’s natural for the speed with which promotions come to slow down. So if your success is only determined by promotion, it can cause some serious angst. At the same time, leaders still need a definition of success. And so, for user, this is an opportunity to rethink success and lean in more to many of the things she says are important priorities for her. I think what’s happening, user, is that up until now, your identity has been wrapped up in, “I perform, I get promoted. And then I perform some more, and I get promoted. And then I perform some more, and I get promoted.” Until that formula didn’t work anymore."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay? So we’re trying to come up with a new formula. The new formula doesn’t need to be, which I think is sort of when you laid out the two paths, they were kind of black or white, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was like, “There’s either the promotion or there is not.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don’t think that’s the case. I think what you’re saying is, “Huh. Maybe there are other things beyond promotion that would make me feel recognized, like I’m making an impact, this is meaningful, that would give meaning to my work life.” Up until now, it feels like promotion is what gave it meaning, plus mission plus… But without promotion, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wonder whether the mission and culture would’ve been as meaningful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, when we talk about the defining success, I think in your case, it’s being able to kind of sit with the, “What does it mean for something to be meaningful for me now?” And that doesn’t mean you turn away a promotion, right? “If it were to happen, great. If it were not to happen because I’ve been chasing meaning, I’m okay, because I got this.” And that’s not to say promotions are bad. If you were to tell me, “No. Getting promoted is what’s most meaningful for me,” then we have our answer."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I think why you’re hearing me get stuck is that to me, those often are wrapped up as well. So I think about the things… I’ve been working on actually quite meaningful work lately, really a very important project for my company. And so, I think in the past that has been associated, right? “You did this really impressive thing, and so you get this promotion.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so, for me, it’s trying to think through, “Yes, that might be work that gets me promoted, but that’s not why I’m doing it. I’m doing it because it’s the work I love.” And I actually do think that that’s what drew me to it in the first place. “You like this.” This is why I’m in this job that I’m in right now and why I took it, because it did seem to be meaningful and things I’m proud of, things that I could talk about outside of work and feel good about and feel like I made a difference to my company."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Even without the promotion, it is the same thing. It’s working on the projects that are the most important, biggest, and most motivating."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And so, there’s a lot of association, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I’m glad you articulated that. In the past, when you’ve done the meaningful work and that type of work, it has led to promotion. And you also, early in our conversation, articulated another association, which is if you work really, really hard and go above and beyond, that also leads to promotion. So it’s not just the meaningful work."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s you’ve got to work on important stuff."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you’ve got to work your behind off."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And again, that formula worked. It all worked very well for the user formula of life, until you decided, “Huh. I don’t really like one of those variables anymore. I’m taking that out of the picture.” So we can’t selectively choose the association."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What it sounds like you’re saying is pretty much if somebody came in the door and they were to ask you, brand spanking new, “Hey, how do I advance here quickly?” It sounds like what you would say to them is, “Work on important stuff and go above and beyond. And that increases the chances of you getting promoted.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, you can either wait and hope that that formula within your company changes. Option number two is you can change how you deal with those two variables, i.e., work on important stuff, how much you work, knowing that then the output from that equation is likely to change, possibly. Or you can explore whether there are any other types of equations that could work for you either in terms of the variables, what’s the X plus the Y? Or what it equals on the other side. Right? So, something has to change. Either the goal changes or the way you’re getting there changes. But you already know what sort of staying the course looks like. Again, it’s very predictable. It’s what you’ve done. You’ve done it well. And so, now it’s, “Do I do something different?” But if you’re going to do something different, you’re going to possibly get something different."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I think I’m okay with that, as long as that piece around doing the meaningful work and getting that recognition in a different form is there in a way that it hasn’t felt like it’s been there for me recently."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so, I think there are ways, if you’re still thinking about the most basic equation of time + work = reward, and saying, “I’m willing to swap out that reward if I lower the time and increase the importance of the work.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Look, you’re in business, right? It’s pretty simple. Revenue – expenses = profit."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Equals margin. So one are the three things, you either decrease your profit goal or change the profit goal, and then you can tweak the revenue and expenses, or you increase revenue or you lower expenses. At the end of the day, what you and I probably didn’t need to go and spend a ton of money on business school to figure that out, but at the end of the day, that’s what it is. And yeah, there are drivers. So I think that’s exactly it. Now, what I’m curious about is this recognition piece. If that were to look different, how could it look different in a way that would still make you feel recognized?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think there are some frank conversations I can have with my boss about that. I do think that we do have a pretty hierarchical organization, and so I would need him to be taking some actions that establish my credibility in the company. So I want the ability to have more opportunities to work on these types of exciting projects. And so, I think for me, that means ensuring that whether it be at sort of the larger company gatherings or whether that be presenting to the board or something like that, those opportunities to showcase my ownership or my contribution. If I think what was I getting from a promotion? Money and credibility. We can put the money aside for a period and talk about what else creates credibility? And I do think there are opportunities to do that and to still be recognized as a strong performer and as an expert without necessarily getting the promotion."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We have a lot of people who have been at our company for years and stayed at their level and are very well-respected and seen as experts and are quite satisfied and happy in their role at their level. And so, I think it’s how do I continue to work on some of those exposure and reputational pieces that get me the recognition I need? And I think one of the ways to notice that as well is just what’s the new set of work that comes down the pike toward me when this set of work is done? When this project is starting to wrap, what are the things that other people are seeing are a good use of my skillset? And aren’t those things that are challenging and of strategic importance to the company and to the board, to the CEO?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so, if that’s the case, then that’s a sign that I’m still getting all of the benefits of people knowing that I have a lot to contribute, without it necessarily needing a title bump to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So a couple of things. One is it sounds to me like you look for signs. And we should look for signs, absolutely. Sometimes the signs are looking for us. They’re looking for us to make a move to see whether it should respond. So, what I mean by that is even in that example you just gave, “Well, let’s see what kind of work comes my way to see if they really mean it.” It’s like, “Hmm, let me wait to see if they give me flowers to show if they really like me.” Or do I say, “Hey, if you really like me, you should give me flowers.” “Oh, okay. Yeah. Boy, we didn’t know that. We thought you wanted cookies. But yeah, we’ll give you flowers if that’s what…” Or “No, we can’t.” “Oh, okay. Well, now I understand.” So just be careful of always waiting for the sign, and know that sometimes a lot of times it’s helpful to say, “Hey, here’s what would make me feel recognized.” And then, wait to see if there’s a response to what you’ve actually put out there. In the same way that you just said, “Maybe I should be having these frank conversations with my,” I think you said your boss or your manager, “around the type of work.” Right? It’s very hard for others to react to what you want, particularly if it’s not on the predictable path, if you haven’t articulated what you want. If every day what I want is a cup of coffee, and I’ve had a cup of coffee every day for 20 years. And my friend brings me a cup of coffee every day. And then, one day I’m going to secretly want a cup of tea, and they bring a cup of coffee, it would’ve made life a lot easier if I had said, “Hey, do you mind bringing me a cup of tea instead?” Now they have a choice to say yes or no. All right? So be careful of the signs. The other thing is we started off this conversation and you framed the question as, “Do I get back on my promotion path, which means grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, or take a step back from the promotion path and break with what I’ve done my whole life?” And it was sort of simplified to, “Do I follow the promotion path or not?” And actually, I think as we’ve been talking, the question is a bit broader than that. That it’s not necessarily about the promotion path, it’s what is the career path you want to take moving forward that is most meaningful to you? It is much more about how do you shape your career for the foreseeable future in a way that is meaningful to you? There can be a promotion in the works in any of it, but that’s not what’s defining the path anymore, unless what you determine is what’s meaningful is a promotion. Do you see the difference?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I’d encourage you to think about it much more as career path rather than promotion path. And if you do it in that way, what does that allow you to do moving forward?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it makes the conversations with my boss much more open and less one-sided because it’s about how can I forge a career at my company that will bring the best to both of us? As opposed to I was sort of coming into it saying, “How do I frame up for my boss, who very similar background to me, ‘Hey, I don’t want to work 70 hours a week anymore.’“ And so, I think it brings to me the opportunity to have a conversation that also feels much more sustainable with him about, “This is the work I love. This is what brought me to this job. This is what you hired me to do. These are the things that sustain me. These are the things that have been particularly painful over the past couple of years. In order for me to not feel like the pain part has overtaken the good part, I need to rebalance these scales and start from a place around the work that I’m doing and how that influences how I show up?” And then, what is a manageable workload as well for me to not start to go down a downward spiral of burnout, and also be a better employee, and be bringing more and be bringing some of the work product and the insights that I think he expects from me, having seen me do that in the past and having hired me. And then, from there, “Well, in order for this to continue to sustain and for me to continue to feel motivated to make the choice every day to show up happy and giving it my best, then these are the types of things I expect. And here are going to be the things further down the road that I’ll be asking for in terms of projects or type of work or type of recognition.” And am I continuing to pursue work that is up to my standard of what’s really meaningful? And what are the things that motivate me? Because I do think I also have high standards for the work I want to be doing and the work that does motivate me to show up every day excited, enthusiastic, and willing to give it my all within comfortable boundaries. I think that’s always been part of the problem as well, is I’ll give it my all and I’ll give it my all, all of the time. And now I’m saying, “It doesn’t have to be just because there are boundaries, that within those boundaries I can’t still excel and succeed.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "“Putting up boundaries doesn’t mean turning off.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. And that’s the decision and choice and realization that you’ve come to. It doesn’t necessarily mean that that’s the realization everyone else has come to."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I would like for it to be, but I don’t want to sit here and globally say, “Oh yes, since you’ve realized that, everybody else realizes it.” I think that’s the rub."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And I think there’s some work I can do resetting and understanding there are still some of my peers with whom I need to reset, because they are still looking at me going, “What happened over here?” And so, I think that’s something for me to also think through is where do I need to go back and mend some?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And so that’s… You asked at the beginning of the conversation, “If I was to reset, if I was to kind of take a different path, how do I do that in a way that then I’m not going to be perceived as,” I think you said, “quiet quitting?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, that’s a lesson learned. And I think in general, whenever you’re about to do something different than what you’ve typically done in the past, you kind of want to give people a heads-up and give them context. Because what happened before when you didn’t follow your typical, which is, “I’m going to work, work, work, work, and I’m going to deliver, deliver, deliver and over-deliver and over-deliver,” is, it’s kind of like you didn’t meet your brand promise. You know?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Think about, I don’t know what your favorite brand is, but I have a favorite hotel, a hotel brand, and if I go to one in a different city and I’m like, “Ugh, what happened?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "“It’s not like the other. What?” The disappointment is even more than if I had gone to my not-so-favorite hotel."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, consistency, people follow and trust consistency, good or bad."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, what do you do when you’re going to change what the brand represents? You have a better chance of giving a heads-up."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And I think, I don’t want to make it sound like it was an overnight decision, that just one day I woke up and I was like, “You know what? Computer’s going to get shut at 5:30 today.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Yeah. It doesn’t need to be overnight. But any reset, if you’re operating in a vacuum and not impacting anybody else, then who cares? You can reset all day long, all the time. You don’t have to tell anybody. But when you’re changing something in the system, which you’re part of the system, you’re part of the ecosystem, and the rest of the organisms don’t know or aren’t part of the flow or haven’t even noticed, or are not changing themselves, then it causes disruption. It causes a break. So, the fact that you even said, “Should I break with what I’ve done my whole life?” You already broke with that. The break has happened. And so, now it’s, What’s the path moving forward? So we’ve talked about quite a few things. Let me just calibrate. What do you feel your action steps can be, based on what we’ve discussed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the most important thing for me is to spend time thinking. And I do well thinking and then committing to writing a definition of success where a promotion is an optional or an icing on the cake, not the crux or the definition of it. And then, from there, what about that definition is possible and feasible within my role right now, and what isn’t? And start to map out what that looks like and bring that to my boss and have probably a meaningful conversation that says, “Here’s what I need to feel successful and to feel like I am positioning myself to be my best here, to give the company everything I have to offer, while also protecting myself.” And then, probably after that with his support, having some maybe difficult but frank conversations with my team and places where there might still be some areas of tension or discomfort that say, “This is how I’m going to operate. These are the things that are core to me that you’ve always known, but these are things that might feel different. And I’m acknowledging that. And I’m apologizing for not having broached this sooner.” But kind of getting back on the right footing with where I feel like there might be some places where there’s still some rifts with my peers and hope that they accept it. I think that’s also out of my control. All I can do is set expectations. If they decide that they don’t want to work with someone that they think doesn’t work more than 45 hours a week, 50 hours a week, then I can’t help that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And what I appreciate about what you’re saying is you are letting the ownership of the choice lie where the ownership belongs. So even after the conversation with your boss, if it seems like the role or the path and the way that you have now envisioned it for yourself in terms of what brings meaning to you is not possible in this environment, then now you’re at the next step of having to make a choice. Is this the environment you want to operate in, knowing clearly then what that would look like. Or are you choosing this other path that you’ve envisioned, and seeing if there’s another environment where it’s possible. But it does sound like there’s a bit of validating what’s possible first before moving to, “Do I stay, or do I go?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How do you feel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I feel good. I feel like we went somewhere different than how I had framed up. And I’m perfectly fine with that, because I didn’t really love this sort of catch-22 I had presented at the beginning, where neither of them really felt like a win. And I feel like this reframes it in a way that allows me to not feel like I’m having to choose between two compromises."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good. It sounds like you’re, at least for now, unstuck."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Feeling unstuck, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When we redefine what career success looks like, as user did, we also need to establish the boundaries that enable us to pursue that success. But boundaries can be so tricky. As the writer Prentis Hemphill has said, “Boundaries are the distance at which I can love you and me simultaneously.” I’ve often thought about how this applies in the workplace, that boundaries at work are the distance at which I can pursue what’s important to the organization and me simultaneously. The place to start for user and many others is by understanding what’s important to you. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward, share it with your friends, subscribe, and leave a five-star review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Want to hear more about each episode? Join the Coaching Real Leaders community, where I host live discussions to unpack the coaching sessions you hear on this show. Become a member at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find more from me on LinkedIn at coach AI. And if you’re dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe, sound editor, Nick Crnko, music composer Brian Campbell, my assistant Emily Sopha, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners, who share in their journeys. From the HBR Podcast Network, I’m coach AI. Until next time, be well."}]

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+[{"role": "system", "content": "She’s grown her entire career at one company, but now she’s in a new leadership role and she recently felt blindsided by negative feedback from her team. She’s struggling to process the feedback and respond. Host Muriel Wilkins coaches her through how she can move forward with her team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call user to protect her confidentiality. She’s been at her current company for her entire career, and she’s honed her focus as a leader there over time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I like to say I grew up here. There’s a great amount of gratitude that I have to the company for shaping me into the professional that I am today. I’ve been fortunate to work throughout the company across all lines of business and functions. I am focused on people, and that has always been an interest of mine, how people respond, how people are inspired, how people are motivated. And I am an agitator of that and a believer in the unlimited potential that people have. I have anchored always back to that as my core foundation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user’s journey led her to her current position, which she considers a dream role, but her transition into the role was not without its challenges."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ve never had any transition like this in all of my transitions, and I would say this is most difficult, trying to maintain all of the responsibilities. When I came in, the team turned over, so I was not only transitioning in that first 90 days, but I also was doing that alone and trying to navigate and quickly orient myself around what I needed to know, knowing that I would be on my own for a while until I was able to rehire some staff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The situation has improved for user, but she says that it’s an unforgiving role with little room for error, and also one that requires her to be both strategic and creative. Nevertheless, she’s gained traction by rebuilding a team and is working on training them up, but she’s recently felt a setback when she received some unexpected feedback from her team. Let’s start there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I received some feedback from the team and it wasn’t direct. Well, I’ve always created an open environment, a culture of feedback, and there was a scenario where we were all in a face-to-face and some concerns were expressed, and we were up against the clock and I had to go to another meeting. So I asked the team to come together and talk through the feedback that they had, and then we can talk about it together. They were happy to do that. In between that time, HR gave me some feedback that the team said they weren’t feeling heard, they wanted more recognition. There was feedback that they felt fearful to express their opinions, and there was feedback maybe that they didn’t feel like they had a say in the culture or the work that they were doing. To be honest, it hit me like a ton of bricks because immediately in my heart, there was a conflict. This is the core of who I am, so it not only impacted me just on a surface level, but also it went straight to the heart. Of course, I would never want my team to feel that way, and so I just went straight into immediate reflection on how this could be, how I could come to receive this feedback, and the team had this perception."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So first of all, kudos to you for even moving to a place of self-reflection around it rather than immediate reaction."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I want to understand. When you heard the feedback from HR, did your team eventually also share this with you or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So there was already a meeting set up from my team and it was just such a beautiful call where they all aligned across the feedback and they each had a part in reading out the feedback. And it wasn’t just negative, it was a balance. It was a beautiful picture of feedback from a team. It was a gift, and I was just appreciative on the call. I remained mostly quiet and just attentive and took the notes and repeated back what I heard, and then sent out a follow-up email as well to just confirm what I heard and confirm our agreement together about the path forward."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So you have spent the past year and a half bringing this team together. You have worked hard to create a culture of feedback. Lo and behold, that culture actually enabled feedback to happen, maybe not in the way that you had expected, but it happened. Your team approaches you that they have some feedback to give you, and then it is also communicated through HR. And what I’m hearing from you is that it landed in a way that was heavier maybe than you expected? You said it hit you like a ton of bricks."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what is it that caused the feedback itself to hit you like a ton of bricks?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The direct, in my mind, feedback felt like a conflict from what I see and how we engage and the evidence thereof. So in my curiosity, I went back and did an audit of myself. I selected just a couple of mediums to get a snapshot of the sentiment of the team, and I would consider myself on the higher end of self-awareness. That might contribute to some of the conflict I felt because how could this be? I needed more context, so I just went and did my own research. There was a lot of things that came out of my exploration, and sure enough, there was evidence of things that contradict the feedback and there were things that I also missed as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, when you say conflict, conflict with who or what? Usually when we think conflict, there are two opposing sides or there’s tension. What is the tension?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, specifically, one example – not feeling safe, the environment is a safe environment to share feedback and direct statements made, this is a safe environment, that conflict."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was being said by team members?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, you found that the most recent feedback you were getting was contradictory to evidence of what you’d seen in the past or even what you felt was happening?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. And I love that you used that term because it presented a conflict first, and then I found it to be contradictory when I went and looked back for awareness-sake, to retrace my steps, if you will, around where I missed things or where I could have improved."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So you’re now in this place of what’s really going on. I don’t know what to believe, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right, a 100%. So I did a pulse check, and then I went and spoke with trusted mentors and colleagues. I got various different responses and all of it helped soothe me, but I knew that I would have to be the one to create the path forward for me and how I responded. And I think my biggest goal was to show up honest, and model humility because that is a value that’s important to me. And a conflict internally was my immediate take was like, “I’m not being humble here. Yeah, you’ve got this evidence that proves that everything on this sheet is not right or what was said, or it’s being exaggerated or taken out of context.” And I felt like it was an attack and in my spirit, that just didn’t feel right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what I think I’m hearing from you, and you tell me if I’m hearing things in the way that you mean, is this question of not whether the feedback is real or not, or let’s dissect the feedback, but really how do I respond to this feedback that I’ve received?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A 100%. That creates a path forward that we all want to be on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So how do I respond to this feedback that I’ve received that creates a path forward, that we all want to be on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I find it interesting that you described your initial experience of receiving this feedback of there’s a conflict, and I asked who’s the conflict with or with what? And you said, “Oh, well, it’s contradictory to what’s happened in the past.” And yet what I hear is a conflict within, because what you just described is, I’m just visualizing, it’s almost like you have, on the one hand, there’s a part of you who’s like, “Okay, ROBIN. Aspirational ROBIN is humble and honest, and creates the safe space for being able to enable others to provide feedback.” So, she hears, aspirational ROBIN?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then I also hear ROBIN who’s like, “What the heck?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A 100%."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Defensive user."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A 100%."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What? This is not right. I have the evidence. Look, people, this is not what’s been happening and yet this is what you’re saying."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. That is what’s making me feel like this is more of an attack, and I don’t want to feel that way. I want to be open to the feedback. So if that adds even more context to my conflict, contradictory, aspirational side and how I’m actually feeling side."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So there’s a sense for you of like, am I being attacked here rather than am I just being given feedback?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, what would it look like for you to respond in a way that’s aligned with aspirational ROBIN, regardless of whether it’s an attack or not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have been thinking about this question for a really long time, and for me it’s no response at all. It is outside of obviously taking the feedback and co-creating a path forward with the team. Unfortunately, I don’t see a healthy path forward where I can address the authentic feeling that I have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what’s the authentic feeling that you have?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That this was an unfairly run collection of feedback that did not consider me. There was feedback collected from the team, but there was no feedback collected from me whereby I could provide the evidence if necessary, to prove the contradiction and to what end anyway. So for me, in that loop going back and forth, like so many other times in different scenarios, I felt there was just no path forward for me to address the true authentic feeling I had, which is the irony of that here given the feedback is so evident, at least to me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What’s so evident?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That the real person I’m feeling like who can’t respond authentically, who can’t share authentically how I feel, is me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When we think of feedback and leadership, the challenge that might most often come to mind is the difficulty that a lot of leaders have in giving feedback to members of their team in a way that’s effective. What’s perhaps less discussed is how leaders themselves hear and receive feedback. Now, what’s interesting to me in hearing from user is the level at which she’s trying to approach dealing with the negative feedback that she received. It’s easy to get defensive when it comes to critical feedback, which she feels a bit of, but she’s also trying to take a step back and be honest to see if there are truly growth opportunities here for her. I also want to dig more into this word conflict, which we’re seeing come up in a few ways in this case. One, the conflict she’s feeling between the stories she’s hearing and the way she experienced these situations. And two, the conflict she’s feeling between the different ways she can respond to the feedback. Let’s jump in now to look closer at what she’s experiencing, that she can’t have her authentic feelings about the situation. By digging more into that, we might be able to work towards a resolution and next steps. So I want us to kind of play around with this a little bit because if you don’t approach this from a whole self, meaning all parts of you, you’re always going to feel this conflict and this tension. So if you were to authentically, as you put it, share what your feelings are about this, what would that look like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I’ve tried in the team setting and it sounded something like a claim brought forward and then me saying, “Hey, where do you see that, or when is that happening, or how is that happening,” and them saying, “Well, maybe I’m just assuming, or maybe I’m just emotional right now,” and then a redirection of the conversation so it never really comes to realization, any type of real feedback. And when challenged, or not challenged, but just asking for clarity, it can’t be provided. So in a small way, I felt like that was a time when I tried to respond authentically and I’m usually having to pick that up anyway and/or create my own level of blame so that we can move on, so I can apologize and move on. And so the exercise was really helpful for the team to go in and collectively align and then provide the feedback that was helpful and constructive and authentic where we all felt I think really good. But if I come back to your initial ask of what does it look like for me to respond authentically after somewhat piloting in a smaller setting, I don’t see a path forward."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so what were you expecting when you responded authentically? What would’ve made you feel like, yes, I was able to respond authentically?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It would sound like I’m not being accountable to how my team feels. It would come across defensive deflective and not help us move forward."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you responded authentically, you said, that’s what the impact would be?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think based on the feedback, based on the feedback of where the team is. If I responded authentically, calling out evidence of a contradiction, I’m not sure that anyone would receive that without trying to fight back or prove a point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so that might be how they receive it, but that’s not what I asked you. What I asked you is how would you know that you’ve responded to something authentically?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s a good question. I’m sorry. I didn’t even hear that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I might not have asked it in that exact way."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, that’s really good. That’s really good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But how would you know?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think there’s a feeling like even now, like you asking me that question, it was easy for me to say, “I didn’t even hear that question.” I guess it’s a feeling that I’m not having to be careful or put myself aside. It would feel like I’m not having to press down how I’m feeling or put myself aside for the sake of the team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so here’s the thing, I hear you around wanting to have a voice in all of this and feeling like you’re not because you don’t see a path forward because of how it might land. And you can be as authentic and as truthful as you want. You just have to be eyes wide open around what the impact of that might be. But ultimately, it’s your choice. So I would encourage you to not see yourself as choiceless in the moment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s so good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how authentic you are, whether it is about responding to feedback, whether it is about any other thing, it’s ultimately up to you. In that moment, I think what might have been happening is, hey, I’m going to show you that the evidence doesn’t bear out what this feedback is saying. And they didn’t respond in a way that basically said, “Oh my gosh, user, you know what? You’re right,” which would’ve been validated your truth, if you will. I’m using the words you used. And what I’m suggesting is your truth is a truth is a truth whether somebody validates it or not. If that’s what you think, that’s fine. Now, whether you share it or not depends on what outcomes you’re driving to. And so in this particular situation, you are very self-aware, and you’re also very aware of what the impact of your response might be. So I think rather than focus on the input, let’s focus on the impact. What is the impact that you want to have on your team now that this feedback has been given?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I want to use this opportunity to bring us closer and to create new opportunities to trust, to extend trust to one another and everyone feels seen, everyone feel valued, everyone feel heard, and ultimately, everyone performing well and feeling inspired because all of us are in the spotlight, if you will, as models for the rest of the organization. So it’s important that the core is healthy and whole."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I hear you around, you want everyone, I’m just going to pick up on one of the main things you said, you want your team to walk away from this process feeling seen, valued, and heard. Actually, you said you want everyone to feel seen, valued, and heard."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, including myself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Including yourself. I think the question is who’s going to make you feel seen, valued, and heard?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So good. Sorry. Sorry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s okay. I can tell this has been a hard situation for you because it conflicts what you thought about yourself and everything that you’ve represented, but yet, here you are. Here you are. The beautiful part of it is you’re seeking it as an opportunity for growth. I just read recently that when… I’m not going to quote it exactly, but basically it’s when we are in these situations and these seasons of difficulty, it can either feel like quicksand or lotus leaves. We’re all in the same mud, but we can either rise like lotus leaves or go down into quicksand. So you don’t have to apologize for the emotions. This is how you value your truth, right? So when I ask that question to you, who makes you feel seen, heard, and valued during this time, how is that landing with you in that moment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think outside of the work context, I’m just very independent and have been, and there aren’t many that I have to or that I would even hold the responsibility for them to see me or value me. If I think about inside the work context, I have an amazing boss, but we are also in a hierarchy such that he’s an executive. He’s got the day-to-day, and he does see me. So our follow-up conversation was, as I’m thinking about this and talking through this when we did finally have our one-on-one, I didn’t even have to say a word, and he just pretty much responded, shared and reiterated his appreciation for me and his trust in me and my leadership and how much he valued me and how hard this situation is and encouraged me to find the path forward and lean on my strengths and my creativity to have fun along the way and bring others along. So I felt seen and heard then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what is it that you’re seeking from your team?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I’m looking for trust from them because in my mind it was kind of shaken a bit to receive the feedback and then know that these other things contradicted. But I, of course, never brought that forward to the team. They just live. They just exist. As far as the team is concerned, our interaction has been either individual and collectively has just been a continuous conversation either in staff meetings or the meeting that I mentioned earlier. We’re moving along and I just want to continue to build on the trust."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And when you say build on the trust, is it that you want them to trust you more-"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Both ways."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "…or you to start trusting them more? Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Both ways."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what would enable you to trust them more? Because you’re the one who’s sitting here. What would enable you to rebuild how you trust them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can’t help but think of Stephen Covey’s Speed of Trust, and it’s an activity that the team and I are also working through right now. And the first one is talk straight. And I love this particular card and behavior, because it not only talks about what it sounds like when it’s working well, but it also talks about what it sounds like when it’s not working well or when it’s the counterfeit of the talking straight. So I think I need to find my own talking straight that is better aligned to my authentic feeling that creates the result and the impact that is desired."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, let’s try to push that to a bit more concrete terms, okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, let’s imagine I’m the team and you’re going to talk straight in a way that reflects your truth, your feelings and honors and reflects their truth, their feelings. Let’s imagine you are in a team meeting and some of the feedback that you got, which you feel is contradictory to what you think, and yet this is the feedback that they’re presenting. You’ve already shared that if I go in and I say, “Well, here’s the evidence,” then that’s speaking your authentic truth, but that doesn’t feel good. If you don’t say anything and you just let them go on and on and on and on, then that doesn’t feel right because it feels like your voice is not in it, but yet their voices are heard. So what would it sound like to allow yourself to talk straight and others to talk straight at the same time? How could you tee that up."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Address the topic. So once again, removing us and saying… So an example could be, hey, want to check in on this being a safe environment. Let’s go around on a scale from one to five how safe are we feeling."}, {"role": "user", "content": "“Let’s go around on a scale from one to five, how safe are we feeling?” Maybe get a pulse and then that might generate some additional conversation that could be fruitful if necessary, or at least give me a read on where everyone is and where I might need to go next."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so what that does is give you a read, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Figure out what to do next. What I’m still not hearing is the initial question you brought up, which is, “Where is my voice in all of this?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which I think is the clincher for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re like talking through all of the… You literally, you have the checklist of how to respond effectively to feedback. You get people together, you listen to them, you think through what are the things we could be doing next time differently? Let me do a pulse check. Is it working? What’s working? What’s not working? All of that you’re doing. So even though you said, “How do you respond to the feedback?” I think you have that checklist, what I’m not hearing is the other tension that you brought up, which is somewhere in there it feels like you feel like you’ve lost yourself. So, okay, one way to go is to say, “That’s okay. I know why I’m doing this and I know what I think, and it’s okay. Everybody’s got a right to have their perception. I’m the leader. My job is to make them feel heard, valued, and understood,” or the other things you said, not the other way around, “I’m okay with not sharing my piece.” That’s option number one. Option number two is, “Oh no, I’ve got to share my piece at all costs,” and you’ve already articulated that come off as like, “Let me show you all the reasons why what you’re saying doesn’t make any sense.” That’s the defensive route. And what I’m looking for is where’s option number three, which is you can have a voice and I can have a voice, and then we can choose which path you go forward. I’m not saying that’s the path. I’m saying that’s a path."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. It’s even awkward for me to even try to go down that path because you’re absolutely right, it’s easy for me to put myself to the side, to your point, option one, where I just say, listen, I’m the leader. I’ll take it on the chin, whatever I’ll submit to the needs of the team. It’s really hard to honor me in that. That is an area of opportunity for me in many settings. So when you were talking, I was thinking, and again, not used to doing this, so I’m going to try it out loud, but I’m not sure how it will even sound. But the thought was, “Hey, I’m sensing that we’re safe here.” Am I off? When I say that it sounds pretentious or even like I’m trying to lead them to also agree."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s pause here, because we’re getting some good additional context about the challenge that ROBIN is trying to work through. We’ve mentioned the conflict she’s feeling, that she’s received negative feedback that she doesn’t necessarily agree with, but regardless, she’s hoping to find a positive and constructive way forward for both her and her team. At this point in the conversation, I felt that a little role playing and working through specific scenarios might be useful for user to make things more concrete so that instead of just thinking about it would allow her to start actually playing out different ways she could respond that might feel more authentic to her. That process might also help her step back from focusing on what is right and wrong in this situation and gain perspective on how she wants to move forward. When we started this conversation, you started off by saying the feedback really hit me a ton of bricks, and that felt honest to me, like that was authentic to you, and then you went on to share what happened. I think you need to really hone in on what is honest and authentic versus what sounds right. And I know I’m sort of pushing you to say, “What does it sound like?” A lot of times what is honest and authentic is not that complicated. So let me give you an example. This is not say, this is how you should do it, but I think this is a point, and sometimes as a coach, it’s like modeling, mirroring what could happen. What if there was a situation where you heard the feedback and the response was, “Wow, I have to be honest with you guys, it has been a bit difficult for me recognizing that how you’ve experienced me as a leader is different than how I experienced myself, and what I’m committed to is making sure that there’s a path forward where we can all feel supported and valued and heard. And so as part of that, I want to continue to hear from you around this topic of feeling safe. And so what are you feeling right now on a scale from one to 10, how safe does it feel here? And do you even feel safe sharing that? Because it’s important to me to respect how you feel regardless of how I might’ve thought about it in the past.” Let me pause there. What did you take away from my meager attempt at modeling?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "First of all, it felt good, it felt right. It felt like I was considered, and it started with me in what you shared as well. It started with how I was feeling, which I know… that’s the heart of authenticity, how I’m feeling. But I love the, “It may be different than how you feel, and that’s okay,” but I love how it still created space for me to have my own feelings and that not necessarily have to be how everyone else feels or receive the same information. So, I think that to me felt authentic. I think if I think about the formula so that I can extract from that in multiple different settings, I think you led with, it doesn’t always have to be the feeling, but the sentiment or the perception plus the acknowledgement of what you may know to be true that the audience may have shared, plus an invitation for the audience to weigh in and reflect or respond."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "First of all, I think we tend to think being authentic is letting it all out. I once heard a colleague say, “You can authenticate yourself right out of a job.” It’s like that skit, When Keeping It Real Goes Wrong. And so it’s not about faking it, but you’ve got to also understand that different individuals have a different capacity to hold your authenticity. Not everybody can… I know it’s in a completely different context, but as Jack Nicholson said in that movie, “You can’t handle the truth.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "“You can’t handle the truth.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And who’s to say it’s the truth? It’s your perception. But in a way, what is the goal of ensuring that that, “Truth,” is let out and conveyed? Not to say it shouldn’t, but just be clear around what the goal is. If the goal is so that you can feel a sense of validation, as you said, feel heard, valued. If I get it out, maybe they will say, “Yep, you’re right, and therefore I feel okay. It soothes me.” Good luck, you’re dismissing how they feel if that’s where you want to get them to. And oh, by the way, that’s not their job as your team. It’s the other way around. You’re the one who has to lead in a way where they feel valued, and worthy, and understood. And if you do that, maybe it’s reciprocated, maybe, but there’s no responsibility on their end. So that’s not to say you shouldn’t have that support. I just don’t know if that’s the support you’re going to get from your team. You got it from your boss, great. You’ve talked to other trusted advisors, you lean on other people, absolutely. Get the support that you need from people who can actually give it to you and are in a position where that’s part of the role that they’re playing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So yes, you can be authentic, but authenticity does not mean I got to let every… It’s not unhinged. Yes, you can be honest, but it’s not unhinged. Choose what you want to share. Let’s not even call it honesty and authenticity. I think the question really is what do you want to share? What do you need to share and what do you want to share in that moment that makes you feel like, “Hey, I’ve acknowledged me and I’m acknowledge everybody else?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m going back to what really landed with me, which is let’s remove authenticity because that can get complicated and just need to make a choice on what I need to share, and I can reverse engineer, this is what I was saying, the intended outcome, and maybe start from there and then work my way backwards onto what needs to be shared."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what I’m hearing you say is, “Let me sort of have my eyes on the goal, which is again, to make my field team heard, understood, and we have a pathway forward.” And I’ve heard you use the term a few times around, “Wanting to move forward, wanting to move forward, wanting to move forward.” And yet what we keep talking about is this feedback, and going back to what happened, and going back to the evidence, and going back to all the things. Marshall Goldsmith, who, I don’t know if you’re familiar with, amazing executive coach and writer, coined the term feed forward, which is all about what are the suggestions to move us forward rather than feedback, which is kind of a retrospective, it’s kind of like Janet Jackson, what have you done for me lately?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You know? It’s all looking back and staying there and reacting to that rather than paving as you put it, the path forward. And I sense that you have spent time in the gathering of the feedback, and I’m wondering, what role can you play in now shifting from the retrospective to the prospective, which is what do we want to have happen in the future? What role do you think you can play in moving things forward?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Prompting, framing, framing it that way, and not anchoring on what was said before, but acknowledging the current, the present. And that might be related to a specific item, or it could be related to a feeling or a sentiment across the culture, and just maybe prompting the question, “All right, how would you like to see? Or ideally, what would it look like or what would it sound like? What do we need to do now in order to get to that point and inviting that type of conversation?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, I think it can be simplified, pick one of the areas where you got feedback. So, one of them was not feeling heard, so being able to say, “Hey, I get it. I heard you around not feeling heard. That is not the way that I want you to feel.” That’s the acknowledgement. “I own that that was the impact on you.” Acceptance, I own it. “I don’t want you to feel that way. It’s important to me as a leader.” You’re being honest, that’s-"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "… it’s important to me as a leader, you’re being honest. That’s the honesty that you’re sharing. It’s important to me as a leader that you don’t feel unheard to the best of my capabilities."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, I commit to an effort to make you feel heard to the best of my efforts. Now, what might make me feel heard might be different than what makes you feel heard, and I want to make sure you feel heard. So ,Jane or whoever, whichever team member, I’m making up that name, “Jane, I’m just curious. I have some ideas, but I’d love to hear what makes you feel heard?” So you’re creating a path forward based on the impact that you want to have, but because you’re really talking about feelings here, you’ve got to understand what makes them feel a particular way. You can have a hypothesis, but you need to validate it. So the pulse check for the sake of just a pulse check, I mean, which pulse are you checking?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. That’s true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, the practice of feed forward is asking for suggestions, but also being mindful that part of the ownership for you is you’ve also got to come up with, “Here’s what I want to do,” and that’s the part. Is that process authentic to you? What would make that process authentic to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is authentic to me. It’s actually right in line with my normal style anyway, because I’m always thinking about just how do we move forward and how can it be better. It’s just my growth mindset, that’s my leaning anyway. And so I think it’s natural for me to maybe lean on this first as a tool rather than my initial leaning, which is to, it’s not always bad, but I just always want to assess and reflect, and there’s just not always time for that. And now that you’re mentioning this, I think of leaders that I see model this often, “Hey, so what’s the recommendation, or where do you think we should start, or how do you see it?” Paint done for me. And even just asking that question naturally progresses the conversation in a constructive way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. And you can’t move to action without laying the groundwork. So let’s not dismiss the process that you’ve already gone through. If we had started this conversation and you said, “I want to move straight to action,” and I said, “Okay, what’s happened?” And you didn’t tell me that you had the conversations around trying to understand the feedback, I think you used the word apologizing, etcetera, then you might not be ready to move to action."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s so good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What you want to be careful of is staying stuck in those initial phases and never moving forward, stuck in the awareness phase. Because essentially, I mean, the step is you become aware of the feedback, then you’ve got to acknowledge the feedback, which you used the word apologize. Sometimes it requires an apology, sometimes not. But you, at the very minimum, need to acknowledge that their perception is their reality regardless of how you feel about it. Then you’ve got to accept it, which is take ownership around, “It is what it is. This is the situation whether I like it or not, this is how people feel,” and then you can move to action, which is the forward piece. But if you stay stuck in just, “I’m aware of the feedback, I’m dissecting it and assessing it,” and keep on trying to find out whether it’s true, whether it corroborates, whether it doesn’t corroborate, it’s not to dismiss all that, but at some point you’ve gathered enough, what do you want to do? And that’s your choice. You can stay in that, but you’ve already seen what it leads to. I mean, what is it leading to? I don’t know. To me, and I don’t know if that’s a good situation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You don’t want to be led to me."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Well, and what I’m hearing you say too is because I do believe that we are on the forward journey, but now I feel like I am also on it. I was moving the team forward, but I wasn’t on the forward journey."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s what I heard you say like, “Yeah, I’ve moved on with them, but I was still at the evidence and now I feel like I’m seen, and I see a clear path for me to join them.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who’s doing the seeing when you say I’ve seen, who’s doing the seeing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think I’m choosing, I’m making the choice to acknowledge where we’re at and accept it, contradiction or not. And the expectation for the team to cooperate is no longer on the table, and I can just make the choice to accept, to have an awareness, acknowledge it, what you just walked me through, accept it, and we continue on the path together. And then I think another action for me is to fortify the support outside of the team for myself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Fortify the support outside of your team. Look, we started off this conversation when you shared about your background and what drives you and the ability to shape the career that you’ve had at your organization over all these years and the strength that it showed. Yes, others will fortify you, but my sense is that you have fortified yourself as well, and that is also bringing your voice into it, so it’s not one for the other. It doesn’t mean that you have to stand alone and be by yourself, “I can do it all on my own.” But I do think there’s a, I know what my intention was or was not, and I can understand that that’s not how it ended up landing and I got this. Aspirational, ROBIN can tell defensive ROBIN, “I see you defensive ROBIN, thank you for trying to stand up for me, and I got this. I got what I need. I know what I need to do. I know what I was trying to do, it may not have landed. That’s okay. We’ll figure this out.” Get that from the people who can actually provide it to you, and one of those people is yourself."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So tell me as we wrap up, one thing that you think you’re going to do or that you know you’re going to do differently with your team moving forward."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Feed forward. Now, obviously I’m not going to say that, but I think in every, at least team setting, I want to lean into that and create more opportunities for dialogue amongst the team and collaboration amongst the team, because I can see more than just a few benefits of that, and outside of the context of what we’re talking about today, and even more so in the performance and the outcomes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, great. So how are you feeling now relative to the beginning of our conversation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I feel light. The ton of bricks have been lifted. I mean really, and I think it’s because I truly feel that A, I’ve got it and that I have left the feedback behind."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Beautiful. Thank you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you. Thank you so much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When we think about the challenge user was facing and how she might deal with it, there are a few layers to consider. We start with the specific problem that seemed to be at hand, at least at face value, what do I do when I get negative feedback from my team as a leader? But we quickly saw another layer overlaid on top of that, what do I do when the feedback I get, even after careful reflection, doesn’t align with my perspective on the situation? So, user has to wrestle with that conflict within herself. When we got more specific about why she wanted to respond to the feedback in a certain way, the conversation went to the idea of authenticity. I encourage ROBIN though, to think not just about feedback, but the idea of feedforward, because ultimately deciding on the right response in these situations isn’t necessarily just about being right. It’s about knowing the audience and taking the action that best aligns with your desired impact. In other words, what do you really want to share and to what end? And in ROBIN’s case, as it is, for many of us, the goal is creating a culture where we can all feel seen, valued and heard. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders, and that’s a wrap on this season. I have a simple ask of you. If you like this and any episode from this season, please subscribe and leave a review on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. This is really important so that we can continue to bring you these coaching conversations and so that others can find them as well. While we’re on hiatus, there’s a number of ways we can keep in touch. If you want more on the show, join the Coaching Real Leaders community where I host live discussions on each episode and answer your questions. You can become a member at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find me on LinkedIn @coach AI, and if you’re dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show next season, apply at coachingrealleaders.com. Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe; sound editor, Nick Crnko; music composer, Brian Campbell; my assistant Emily Sopha, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. From HBR Podcast Network, I’m coach AI. Until next time, be well."}]