s4_e1.json

[{"role": "system", "content": "He’s a self-professed “natural finance guy” and has shown himself to be invaluable to his company. His long-term goal is to become a CFO, but he’s gotten little feedback on what to do  to get to the executive level. Now he’s starting to feel stuck in middle management. Host Muriel Wilkins coaches him through managing his career, even when the plan isn’t always clear."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll call user to protect his confidentiality. He’s worked in finance at a major company where he’s been for over a decade. He’s a self-professed very natural finance guy."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My long-term goal is to be a CFO over the five- to 10-year period of time. And I knew in order to get there, I need to start from somewhere and make my way up from there. So, when I joined this business three, four years ago, I had update conversation with my manager that, “Hey, even though I’m joining for a different role, but the role which I’m doing now, that’s the kind of role which I always want to go.” So, the moment that opportunity came up, I immediately grabbed onto it. I had a good conversation with my manager. Of course, we went through the formal interview process with my current GM and with the HR, but I’m glad that everything fell in place and I was put on the board to lead this role."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user has now been leading a team within the broader business for a few years, and he’s responsible for hitting major revenue targets. So far, managing his career progression has worked out relatively well, but now he’s starting to feel a bit stuck."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I think of my roles and responsibilities, it was an upward move for sure, because I have more exposure and I’m delivering a number to the company. But in terms of my title, it was a lateral move. And I’ve been on that title for the last six, seven years now. And I’ve been pushing to get to the middle management, I would say, in the organization hierarchy. So, if I try to put myself right now, I am somewhere between the lower to middle of the middle management. I’m trying to push myself more into the middle or the upper middle management, more into the executive level, I would say."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user is facing an issue that many in middle management face, where the opportunities to take on more responsibilities in your current role or through a lateral move are plentiful, but the upward path to a more senior role seems less clear. Let’s jump into the coaching session now, as I ask user how he’s tried to push himself to the next level and what he thinks is holding him back from getting there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There could be many reasons. I mean, I’ve been pushing, Muriel, to get to the executive level. Even though I get excellent feedback all the time, but I feel like that’s not getting translated somehow into my upward move. Now, why it’s not getting translated, there could be one or two very specific skills, which somebody should have to get to the executive level, which probably I may not have, but I feel like I’m not getting those clear and direct feedback that, “Hey, user, you need to do X, Y, Z to get to the executive level.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So, what I’m hearing is you have had a pretty successful career. You were moved into this role or took opportunity to take this role, which you see as a stepping stone for your longer term aspiration of being a more general CFO, a broader CFO. When you took this opportunity, it was a lateral move from a title perspective, but the responsibility and the scope of the role was broader than the type of responsibility and scope that you had previously."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And so at this point, your desire is to have a promotion in title that is commensurate with what you see as the role and responsibility that would position you for more of the executive level?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. And the other thing we can also add is that it may not be this role which I should be entitled to get to the executive role, it may be another role which much more better, bigger exposure, much more wider responsibilities, which can take me there. So, what I just clearly need to know is, what is that path? What does that path look like? What do I need to do X, Y, Z, A, B, C to get there? And then if tomorrow, if any similar role opens up, would I be fit for that role? Or what else do I need to do in current role so that whenever in the future that role opens up, my management feels that, Yes, user has delivered all these things to the business, and he’s a right fit for that role, and let’s put him on the path for the promotion’?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, I just want to make sure that we understand what the question is. Well, let me ask you, if you were to frame this as a question, what would be the question?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, my question would be, what do I need to do to get to the promotion in the management hierarchy, to get to the executive level?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right, so we have some focus now. So, let me ask you this, have you been considered for positions that would have gotten you promoted?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You don’t think so, or you don’t know?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And what makes you not think so?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just because my management never spoke with me on those positions. I mean, I would say if I go back last one year, there have been a couple of positions which got opened up at the executive level, but my management never asked me that, “Hey user, are you interested to take over that position?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, they never asked you. How did you approach those open opportunities?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I honestly did not approach those opportunities because maybe somehow, I thought in the heart of my heart that even though I may go and talk about it, I may get an answer as, “no.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So… what stopped you from pursuing those opportunities that were open, that you saw potentially could be the types of opportunities that if somebody else had presented you for, you would’ve been a good candidate for, but what I’m hearing you say is you didn’t present yourself because you thought if you presented yourself, you might get a “no”?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And now I’m kind of thinking about it more. The two opportunities which opened up, they were not in a place where I wanted to be, in terms of the city. They were completely at a different location. Also, considering about my family and everything, I intentionally didn’t pursue too much about those roles, if you know what I mean. I was interested in those roles, but then I felt that I’m not really interested in moving to those cities, so I did not push myself for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, the only thing I want to highlight is your level of interest may help inform others’ interest in helping and supporting you. It may or it may not. What I think would be helpful to explore is, when there are opportunities that open up, that you are interested in, what do you do to advocate for yourself for those opportunities, and what are your expectations of others? Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what would have happened if they had actually suggested that you pursue one of those opportunities? What would have happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think would have more enthusiastic pursuing those. And I may have tried to come up with some alternatives on which I was holding myself back. I may have come up with some alternatives or situations where I would’ve said, “Okay, if that’s a bigger picture, if that’s where I want to move, what can I do? What alternatives I can bring in, which can help me to get to that position?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, what I’m not understanding though is on the one hand you’re saying, “I didn’t pursue those opportunities because you know what? Quite frankly, location wise, it wasn’t ideal. So, I didn’t even want to put myself in front of it because it’s probably not something I would want to do. But if somebody else thinks it’s a good idea, then yeah, I might be more excited about doing it.” And I’m curious, what’s the difference? Why does it matter if somebody is excited about it versus you being excited about it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s a good point. Maybe I can also add is maybe somehow, somewhere, maybe 10% or 20%, I had a fear of getting the answer “no” and then getting demotivated about it; meaning, if I would have approached to my management like, “Hey, I want to approach for that role, that role fits me, and that’s where I want to be, that’s what my aspiration is,” and I felt that there would be a greater probability of getting an answer no, then it could have demotivated me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And maybe what could have also happened is, “Oh, you know what? Okay, let’s see what happens. Let’s put you in the pipeline and see if it works out.” We don’t know. We don’t know. I’m not saying that’s what would’ve happened, but we actually don’t know. What we do know is that where you are now is exactly where you would be if you had gone and they had said no. You would’ve ended up right back where you are now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got it, got it. So, I feel like if I’m hearing you, you are suggesting that I should speak up; meaning, I should go put forward my thoughts, irrespective of the answer, and then see where that discussion leads to?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, I’m not suggesting anything, I’m just laying out to you what the possible outcomes could be, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And one of those routes could be exactly what you just said, because inherent in what you were sharing before is, it sounds like you think that you could be a fit for a type of promotion, but you haven’t gotten any type of external feedback to check against that assumption. That’s what you haven’t gotten. What I haven’t heard you say is that nobody has said to you… I mean correct me if I’m wrong, but it doesn’t sound like anybody has said to you, “Don’t put yourself forward for any promotions.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s a difference between the two, and I think you’ve shut down one avenue… as a result of something completely different that’s happening. So, do you go down that path of, “Hey, maybe I should put myself forward and see what happens?” I don’t know. I mean ultimately, it’s up to you. All we’re doing right now is saying, what other paths do you have beyond what’s happening right now, which is waiting for somebody to approach you and say, “Hey user, here you go”? On a silver platter, “Here’s the promotion you’ve been waiting for.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, no, that’s right. Understood."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s pause here for a moment to gauge what’s happening. user came into the conversation wanting me to tell him specifically what to do, but what’s more important is for him to gain clarity on the options he has in front of him. That’s why as I coach user, I spend time helping him tease out the different paths he can take. This is to help him move from focusing on “Why isn’t this career advancement happening” to “What are ways I can make this happen?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s jump back into the conversation, as I walk him through what-if scenarios as a way for him to see what’s possible beyond his current situation. Let’s say an opportunity came up next week, and you had choices in front of you. One choice is, “I’m not going to do anything. I’m going to wait to see if they call me.” Okay, that’s what you’ve done. The other choice is, “I’m going to,” as you put it, “speak up for myself,” or we think about it as “advocate for myself,” and “raise my hand. Raise my hand that this is something I want to put my name forward with.” So, let’s play out that scenario."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What could possibly happen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I would say I will go with a latter scenario, that I will raise my hand, and I will go and present myself for that position, and I would also build a case around it, like why I think I’m fit for that position with all the point by point, kind of like my profile with my background and why I’m fit for that role. Also, I can also throw in a couple of points where I feel that there may be some development needs which may be required for that role, and this is what my plan is to immediately get to the learning curve of that role. But yeah, so to answer your question is, I would go with that approach, put my best foot forward, and then see whatever the result happens, it happens. At the end of the day, if the answer is no, then I’m back to what I’m working even currently, so no changes, but at least… I have presented myself, I have created some noise, and maybe now my management and maybe HR or other people would know that “user wants to pursue those type of positions, and let’s keep him in mind, and let’s work on his development needs to get up there.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, absolutely. So, as you said, there are two options. You can go, they can say no, and at least now they know, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You can go, they can say yes, and you get it. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If they say no, not only do they know, it also leaves an opening to then seek the very thing that we started this conversation with, which is, “Okay, so what’s missing?” Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "“Can you please give me some feedback around what is it that I don’t have that would have positioned me well for this particular promotion?” And it creates an opening. Do you get it? Maybe. We don’t know, but at least it creates an opening. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it makes sense. It makes sense."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what’s important here, that I’m hearing, is this sense of advocating for yourself… rather than waiting for somebody to advocate for you. That’s not to say that somebody advocating for you wouldn’t be nice. Absolutely, it would. In fact, have you had anyone advocate for you, which is usually what we call having a sponsor? Have you had sponsors?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, that’s a really, really great point, Muriel, you mentioned, is I feel that’s another reason, which is kind of holding me back, is that our overall company has been through a lot of restructuring and reorganization lately, over the last few years, and I have lost a lot of my sponsors in the company. So, to your point, in the past, yes, my sponsors have spoken for me. A couple of my sponsors, they pulled me as their business leader to run the business for them. But where I stand today, and if I look back over the last 10 plus years I’ve been with the company, almost 90 to 95% of my sponsors and colleagues, I have lost. They are no more there with the company. So that’s why for me, it has been kind of like it restarting my whole life with the same company all over again, building the new relationship with the colleagues, finding a new sponsor, finding the great business partners who can speak for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where do you feel you are in cultivating those new sponsored relationships?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I’m doing very well. I’m doing very well. And this was kind of the role which I had needed because I have the team, I have the GM, who I report into. I feel like it may be just a matter of time to get there and then continue to hold my position and continue to deliver what the business needs from me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, what we’re talking about is really having a parallel path, advocating for yourself and having others who advocate for you in the form of sponsors. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It makes sense."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’ve well-articulated that you have had sponsors, but because of the changes in the company, that has dropped off, and you’re now in the process of rebuilding. Which mean, if you’re under… We can talk kind of finance terms with you, if you’re under indexing on others advocating for you, where do you need to be in advocating for yourself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Even much more higher."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right. You need to be over indexing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Over indexing. Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay? More so than you normally would. And so, what I’m interested in is what is your regular baseline, normally would, right? What’s your normal baseline of advocating for yourself? What does that look like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say it’s pretty decent. I over pitch myself. In the over pitch, what I mean is, whenever I see some sort of an opportunity to help a business on something or to take some sort of an initiative, I quickly assess what that need is, what that problem statement we are trying to solve for, and I’m usually one of the people who will raise their hand like, “Hey, this is something which I can do and I can help on.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So that is advocating for yourself on behalf of the business?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, on behalf of the business. Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And so how do you do in advocating for yourself on behalf of yourself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, help me with a couple of examples, please, if I… Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. So, you just said, “Hey, I see a business need. There’s an opportunity, something needs to be done. I think there would be an improvement.” I raise my hand and I say, “Hey, here’s the need. I can help this need. Here’s how I would help. Let me do it.” Okay? That’s advocating. Yes, you’re doing it. You’re identifying a need, and the result is it will help the business."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. What I’m asking is, how do you use those same skills to help user’s career?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, the skills which I develop is, as I’m solving those problems for the business, either I make some new relationships or I collaborate more. And if there is a more compelling need at that point for the business, and I am solving for them, then I get the appreciation, and then I put my name again in the hat, “user is one of those person who is always proactive and always ready to help.” And that puts me a little bit more forward than the rest of my crew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. What it strikes me as is we talk about the notion of letting the work speak for itself. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You do good work and that reflects on user. And if you do the good work and you show the results, then that puts user a little bit further along the line, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, the work does speak for itself, but the work doesn’t always tell the full story. And I think the missing part here is, what part of the story do you need to tell? And what I’m curious about is, what conversations have you had or not had that are explicitly about what it is that you want for your career next?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the conversation which I have not had is again, To get to that executive level, which I am aiming for, what do I need to do? What are my stepping stones to get there? Is it my current role will lead me to there? If I continue to deliver in my current role, will that lead me there one day? Or if not, then maybe have some sort of a session with my manager, with my HR maybe, is, What could be the other things I could be doing to position myself to get there?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, what’s to hold you back from having that conversation with HR or with your manager?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I did have that conversation earlier this year, as we were doing the performance evaluation of last year. So, I kick started that conversation again with my manager. And again, I didn’t get any clear answer or the feedback as to what those things should be to get me there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you get?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That they are presenting me, that they are putting my name out there, and I need to continue to do what I’m doing, and let’s wait for the future."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean I’m kind of rethinking now, it’s been a few months now, but those were just those couple of sentences of the answers I got is, I’m being presented and I need to continue to do what I’m doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And how many data points did you get around? Is that one person who said that to you? Your manager, is it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, my manager, and I did try to talk with my HR, but I didn’t get the clear answer. They told me to talk to my manager."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They told you to talk to your… Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, they can’t reveal too many things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. This is helpful because it sounds like you’re getting a bit of a vague response."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that’s exactly what I’m getting to – is that I keep getting these vague responses. Where it’ll be really helpful for me to get very discreet and specific things, “These are the two, three things that need to be done”, or “It may take a few years down the line,” so that I can manage my whole thing around that rather than sitting myself and holding it, why it’s not happening,"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, why it’s not happening. And the backdrop around that is how you’ve performed, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because what we’ve been talking about is your potential and how do you fulfill the potential that you believe you have, and you’re looking for that direct path. What we haven’t talked about is what’s your current performance? So, the backdrop, you mentioned that some of these conversations have happened during performance review. What is the state of your performance? How are you seen currently in your role in terms of how you’re rated performance-wise?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I got the second best rating, if I can say it that way. There are four or five levels of ratings. So I got the second best rating."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And do you have a sense from a promotion standpoint how the rate… I know it’s not only ratings, but what one expects to… see in a promotional candidate from a readiness standpoint?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I didn’t get the clear answers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. All right. So, you’re not getting clear answers. So, usually, when we think about somebody who is… And I don’t have the clear answer either, because I’m not in your organization, and I would be using a crystal ball to tell you this is exactly what it is, okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because there’s a couple of sides to it. On the one hand, it could be, are the opportunities actually there? That’s what we’ve talked about. If you see an opportunity, then you should at least present yourself for it and see what happens. The other is, are you being seen as somebody who is ready to pursue those opportunities?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, a helpful way to think about promotion readiness is against two variables – and I’m not the one who made this up. This is sort of what’s behind what’s called the “nine block for talent management.” The first question is, how do you, user, perform currently? How do you perform against your current role? Low, medium, high. And then the second question is, to what extent do you demonstrate future potential? And future potential of what? We have to define what that potential is. What are we talking about? In this case, probably the executive level. And all we know right now is where you are in terms of current performance. But those who are seen as ready for promotion are usually the ones who index high on both of those variables. So, they’re knocking it out of the park, current performance, and they demonstrate at a high-level, future potential for the next level. And depending where they are on the other areas, then we can… Are there areas that you need to develop? And I think what you’re asking is, “Hey, I’m doing pretty good on the current performance. I’m not quite sure if I’m demonstrating future potential. I think I’m high, but I’m not sure because I don’t know how you’re defining future potential. And if you could tell me if I’m low or medium, then at least then I know what the gaps are to fill.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it makes sense. I think you’ve framed it very well here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And to complicate matters, you’re going and asking your manager, and you’re not getting a clear response. You’re going and asking HR, they’re not giving you a clear response. And what are you attributing to the fact that they’re not giving you a clear response? Why do you think they’re not giving you a clear response?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It could be that there are not many opportunities at executive level, what it used to be even few years ago. I mean, unfortunately they are [inaudible 00:26:20] a lot. Businesses have shrunk a lot. The executive level people are not moving around much, so that you know if they are not moving around, they’re not creating the spaces for the other folks to move up or move around. So, I feel like there is not enough opportunities at the organizational level, hence, I’m not getting the clear answer. The other thing would be is that if they give me the clear answer that, “Hey, user, let’s do these couple of things,” or for example, “You need another two, three years to get there,” where we are in terms of the whole economy or the environment right now, where a lot of people are leaving the organizations and moving on with other organizations, they may have the similar fear that, Hey, if we give user a clear answer like, ‘Hey, he needs to wait for another couple of years,’ maybe we’ll lose him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm. So, this is the situation, all right? You don’t have the answer. You could go seek the answer from others; meaning mentors, the sponsors that you’re cultivating. And they might be able to give you some idea. But right now, all we know is you don’t have the answer. We don’t really know exactly why. I think all the reasons you stated are very plausible. And there are probably other reasons. I mean, maybe it was a trick question that I said, why do you think? Because we might know the reason, and actually, it doesn’t really matter because you’re not getting an answer. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, the real question is, what do you do without an answer? And so I just want us to kind of imagine. Let’s say you didn’t get an answer for the next six months, what would you do differently than you’re doing now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I may push myself if there are more opportunities, if I can find someone else within the company who can be a sponsor of me to put in that position, which I believe is going to be very difficult because I think I have tried that, since a lot of things have changed in the company, and I don’t have those relationships outside of my small organization, which I lead in. So, it may be very difficult. But then for me is if I don’t get that clear answer, then I may start seeking job opportunities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, here’s the thing, you have a question and you want an answer. You’re not getting the answer that you want, which is basically, because you’re not getting any answer. So, either nothing changes and you just keep on doing what you’ve been doing, which is waiting for the answer to your question, hoping that it happens. And it might and it might not, but you wait. That’s what option number one."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Option number two is you change the question. And changing the question might be changing from, “How do I position myself or ready myself for the promotion, or what makes me promotable” to “How do I continue to do this job as effectively as I can? You told me I need to keep doing what I’m doing. Okay, what does that look like?” That’s just one, but you changed the question. Option number three is you change the answer that you’re seeking, or you give yourself your own answer, which is what you were just talking about."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, I think the path here is starting to create scenarios for yourself so that you can, in a sense, sort of take back some power, some control around your career management in response to what you’re getting right now. And I think the decision path is, do you wait? Do you continue pushing for this feedback that you’re seeking and wait, which is fine, that’s completely up to you, or do you say, “Okay, I might wait ‘til X period of time and then I’m going to take a different move”? It’s not a move that’s waiting. It’s a different move. And what could those moves be? Those are the two options."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. It makes sense to me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. In what way does it make sense to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It helps me kind of develop a more timeline around my career path and approach with more clear sense of direction, like these are the one or two things I need to be talking with my manager next time, try to get some more clear answer, a path which can take me there. And if I’m not getting the right answers or the clear answers, if I’m not getting the clear direction, maybe I wait for some time. And if that trend continues for quite some time, then I go with my next option, which is to move."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, look, at the end of the day, for me, it has no bearing on me whether you stay or you move or you do. What I am seeing is you shifting from a passive recipient of what happens in your career, to taking a more active approach in advocating for yourself. And advocating for yourself doesn’t always need to be, “Hey, I’m putting myself up for promotion.” Not that there’s anything wrong with that, and obviously I would want you to do that, too. But advocating for yourself is saying, “Okay, let me go ask for that feedback. I’m not getting that feedback, then what’s the next move?” Or “I’m not going to make the next move, I’m going to stay and I’m going to wait, but I know why I’m doing it.” As long as there’s a purpose behind it and it’s your purpose, nobody can take that away from you. That’s your purpose. As long as you know the reason why you’re waiting for the feedback or you’re not waiting for the feedback. It’s your purpose. And once you have a strong sense of what that is and that’s what’s driving you, that’s a very different stance than waiting for somebody to give you the direction. You are the one – and I’m pointing at you. You provide the direction. This is a critical shift for user. He starts seeing that it’s his choice whether he manages his career as a passive recipient waiting for what he needs, or if he actively manages his career by advocating for what he needs and driving the process. Which stance he chooses, informs which actions will follow. Let’s dive back in as user realizes how his approach so far has impacted him and what he wants to do differently moving forward."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I do have a defined purpose what I want to do, where do I want to go, but also, again, to your point, I think I have been very passive in my approach; not sharing my purpose with my manager or with my HR or with my management, not being very clear to them, not being very specific to them like, “Hey, this is what I need. This is where I need their help on.” That could be one of the reason why I’m not getting a clear answer back from them because they may not be seeing a defined purpose."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It could be, right? I mean, I wasn’t in a room with you when you asked for the feedback, but I would question, did you frame it as the reason why you’re asking for the feedback is because this is your longer term goal and you’re managing your career and you want to do it with clarity and you’re committed to the organization and you would like to see it come to fruition in this organization, therefore, you’re looking for, to the extent possible, some clarity around what are the two or three things that they think, not guarantee, but would position you for an opportunity if and when an opportunity came about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And here’s the thing, user, you have the skill to do it because you shared with me, this is what you do when you see an opportunity for the business. And I’m saying treat yourself like the business. Position yourself as to one where there’s a need and a goal, and what you’re trying to get clarity on is, how do we get from where you are in current state to the goal, okay? No different than a gap analysis that I know you’re an expert in doing from a finance standpoint."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I like what you just exactly said. Treat yourself like a business. I’ve been advocating of working a lot for my business, but am I doing the same thing for myself? And I think the way you just mentioned, I treat myself as just like my business, and I think I need to work more for me as well too, so that I can advocate myself and I can present myself that way, and I can go with a defined purpose and go with more clarity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right. And as a business, you can then make strategic choices. Again, I’m leveraging the fact that you’re in finance, so you know, one of the decisions is when do we stay and we grow and we cultivate it because it’s a cash cow, and when do we divest? Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I’m glad you’re using that financial jargon, so it’s easy for me to relate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I listened a little bit in finance class. All right. Okay. Now… here’s the thing, I think when you do that, whether you get the feedback and the clarity that you’re looking for or you don’t, either way, the next question will become, can you fulfill the potential that you see for yourself in the context that you’re in? Meaning, in the organization that you’re in, the business that you’re in. Sometimes, it’s in the industry that I’m in. And that’s a reality check."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, if I’m understanding your question, Muriel, correctly, are you saying that if I don’t get the clear answer, or if I don’t get to where I want to go, but the purpose or where I want to go, can I fulfill that purpose somewhere else?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. That’s subsequent. If you can’t do it here, then I mean, then you know it has to be somewhere else. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Can I do it somewhere else?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. But I think most people start with, Oh, can I do it somewhere else? What I’m suggesting to you because of the track record that you’ve had is have you asked yourself the question of, Is it possible to do here? And we can go back to the metaphor of a business. It’s just like if you were starting a new business within the company that you work in. There would be a question, “Should we actually start this business within this company, or do we need to spin off… because the conditions that are in place here are not the conditions that would support the success of this new business?” So, what I’m asking is, are the conditions that are in place at the organization in which you’re in now, the ones that are actually going to be the conditions that help you meet your goal?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got it. So, then that reality check would mean is continually assess myself in terms of the skills being fit for that role, in terms of that development needs and all those type of things?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. And I think when you’re doing that, again, you’re taking the driver’s seat rather than waiting for the conditions to fall in place… magically. So, that’s the skill building development."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then there’s the other side that you said, which is “Do people see it?” That’s the part around you taking action to make sure that people see it. Are you visible? Are you sharing what you’ve done? Are you giving line of sight to the impact that you’re having? Are others able to see you in a way where you can demonstrate the abilities to operate at the level of your manager? Because you can do all the work, and if it’s not visible to anyone, then it’s like the tree that falls in the forest. If nobody’s around to hear it, did it really fall?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got it. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s the everlasting existential question, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. No, absolutely. Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, if we look at those two sides, the, Okay, maybe I’m not getting some feedback from here, but maybe I can go get it. So, that’s one. “Let me do my own self-assessment.” And then also, Do others see it? What work do you feel, or what steps do you think you need to take on both sides of that equation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "One, I can go and talk to my peers, my colleagues, who have been working with my manager for a while and who have been working with me as well. So, I can go and ask them this question. And for example, “Just tell me one thing which you see in my manager, but you don’t see in me. And then you would believe, if I can work on that piece, that will really help me to get up there.” So, that way if I can do a quick interview/assessment, maybe few of my peers and colleagues, then that way, I’ll be getting more very realistic feedback from the people whom I have worked with, and they also know my manager, and they will be in the best place to tell me very specifically what needs to be done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, that’s on the, “Let me do my own assessment.” Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then how about on the visibility piece? What do you think you could do there that you’re not doing right now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe just take some more high-profile problem statements, areas which business is going through with, raising my hand more enough, taking some more risk, taking those problems which other people don’t want to take up and solve the problems for the business, and then raising my hand and going and solving for it, that will help me create more visibility."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, one path, which you’re already it sounds like expert at doing is kind of raising your hand to do the work, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I think the answer… I’m trying to kind of connect the two is to your point, I’m very good in raising my hand, but I raise my hand when I feel that yes, there is a problem which I can solve for that’s easily manageable. I think I’m not raising my hand when there is a bigger problem, and if I solve for it, it will help me create a big visibility."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe to frame it another way is, I’m raising my hand within my comfort zone; meaning like, “What will it take to do this activity? Maybe a couple of hours. Do I have couple of hours in the week? Yes. Okay, let’s raise my hand.” However, if there is some activity which may take five or 10 hours to do it, and I don’t have that time because I’m in my comfort zone, I think I need to come out of my comfort zone and raise a hand to go and do that thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Because if you stay in your comfort zone, guess where people are going to see you? In your comfort zone."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In that comfort zone. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. If you want to be seen as an executive, you’ve got to go do some executive things. Okay? All right? I mean, a few people still get seen as executive, but for most of us… For me to have to be seen as a coach when I first started coaching, I had to go coach."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I couldn’t just sit and hope to be a coach, and then I couldn’t just tell people that I want to be a coach. I then had to actually go coach. And nobody gave it to me. I had to go create coaching opportunities so I could coach, and then people started seeing me as a coach. So, for you, there’s really a theme here. The theme is about creating the opportunities for you, creating the discussions that need to happen for you, creating the avenue to get the feedback for yourself rather than waiting for those things to happen. And I want to acknowledge… I don’t want to be dismissive. In an ideal world, yes, those things should be happening. It would be lovely. And I would love for all people to be in situations where they are getting very concrete feedback from their manager and HR that gives them very clear direction on what their career path is from going A to B. The reality of it is, it doesn’t always happen. And so what do we do in those situations? Do we just wait in the wallow of it not happening? Or do we say, “Okay, it’s not happening, and then what? What do I do now?” Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that’s really about having a sense of driving your own career until somebody else, maybe it’s a new sponsor, maybe it’s new boss, maybe it’s whoever, comes along and says, “Oh, you know what? I’ll help you drive.” Okay? But when they take their hands off the wheel, you’ve got to keep your hand on the wheel. Not all hands off the wheel. I think right now what’s happened is all hands are off the wheel. So, the first step is for you to put your hands back on the wheel. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The other piece that we’ve talked a little bit about is, and this is one of the areas that I think is still going to be great for you… until you add some clarity to it, is if you do all these things, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You go seek the feedback, you go do executive things so that you could get visibility as a potential for executive, out of your comfort zone, and the promotion still doesn’t happen, part of having your hand on the wheel is also about knowing at what point do you stop driving? At what point do you get off the exit? At what point do you need to stop for a rest? At what point do you need to turn right or a left? At what point do you take a detour? Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It makes sense. Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At what point do you stop? There’s a point. What I’m getting at is, at what point – what is the limit that you give yourself that you say, “Okay, if it’s not this, then I move on to something else, or I move on to this next step”? Whatever that next step might be. It might be outside of the company, it might be within the company, it might be the next step is I need to have another conversation, but what are the types of milestones that you’re going to be looking for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I would say is – and again, I’m going back and trying to connect the dots – is one, getting some more feedback, more clarity, what could be couple of things I could be doing, raising my hand enough, developing those two or three things as a milestone, deliver on those milestones, get the feedback, and then asking the same question again, “Do they now see me as being promotable?” And depending upon their answer, then that could be a point where I would say, “Okay, what do I need to do now?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. All right. And are you putting a timeframe around that for yourself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Currently, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But yeah, I mean, in this framework, which I just laid out, then of course, I will be laying out some sort of timelines as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So currently, you don’t have a timeframe, but what you’re saying is you want to shift to having a timeframe?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. And one of the reasons, Muriel, why I think I may not have a timeline is because my business is small, and as I was saying earlier, a lot of opportunities have shrunk, business has shrunk, so that could be one reason why I don’t want to put a timeline because I don’t see it. Even though I may say one year, two years, three years, but what I would be doing in that one year, two year, or three year in order to start getting the answer, you know what I mean?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. I think I know what you mean, but I think what I’m hearing is you don’t want to put a timeline that you don’t think might not be guaranteed; meaning, you don’t want to put a timeline without some clarity that that’s a timeline that’s actually going to happen."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, and I think exactly. I think for me, the million dollar thing is getting the clarity. For me, it’s the biggest thing. Today, if I can get the clarity that, “Hey, these are the two or three things you definitely need to hit before we further assess or to do something,” I will be the most happiest person in this world."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, clearly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think not having that clarity and vague is also demotivating me as well as… not having me reassess, but having me asking a question on myself is, what am I not doing, or what am I doing wrong… to not get evaluated or not getting the clear answer?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, I mean, in the void of an answer, you’re creating your own answer, which is, “I must be doing something wrong.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which we don’t know. We don’t know. I think you need to put some stakes in the ground. “I’m not getting clarity for others. I’m going to seek my clarity. I’m not getting a timeline for others. In lieu of that, I’m going to set myself a timeline. And yet, is there a risk that as a result of that, I may not hedge my bets correctly? Yeah, there’s a risk. So, then the decision becomes would I rather take that risk or the risk of what I’m in right now, which is nothing is happening and I’m feeling the way that I’m feeling?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that’s up to you. Okay? So, I think you’re in a position where, because nobody else is in the driver’s seat, you need to be in the driver’s seat rather than be in the back seat or on the passenger side. So, I’d love to hear from you… how do you feel now at the end of our conversation versus how you felt coming into our conversation, about your whole situation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, getting into the conversation, I was confused as to what I should be doing, but I think after that meeting, I think I’m more motivated, I would say."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re more motivated."}, {"role": "user", "content": "More motivated to present myself in a better way, to, again, using the same words, advocate myself better. I’m more positive that yes, if I go that way, then at least I have more probability of getting the answers than what I was earlier. So, I’m more positive and feeling more motivated now, I would say, more encouraged now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So, I want you to hold that feeling of motivated and positive as the attitude going into the next couple of weeks as you start putting this framework into action. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Got it. Got it. Muriel, thanks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you. Thank you. Organizations do have a responsibility to develop their employees, and employees also have the responsibility to manage their careers. Even in sm’s case where the career path is ambiguous, it’s easy to feel as he did that your career advancement is at the mercy of others. And while stakeholders will definitely influence his progression, it was important for user to recognize he had more in his control than he gave himself credit for. With that newfound sense of ownership, he was able to take the wheel of his career and steer. I recently heard from user, and he had this to say, “I left our coaching session committed to advocate for myself for promotional opportunities and take the steering wheel of my career in my own hands. A few days ago, I stepped up and had a great conversation with my boss in HR around an excellent opportunity. Though it didn’t work out for some internal reasons, my thoughts and aspirations were very well received, and in the process, I was able to plant the seeds in their minds of what it is I’m aspiring for.” It’s so clear that user is well on his way to managing his career in spite of the lack of clarity around him. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Want more of Coaching Real Leaders? Join our community where I host live discussions to unpack the coaching sessions. Become a member at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. You can also find me in my newsletter on LinkedIn at coach AI. Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe; sound editor, Nick Crnko; music composer, Brian Campbell; my assistant, Emily Sofa; and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you are listeners who share in their journeys. If you are dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show next season. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward, share it with your friends, subscribe, and leave a review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. From HBR Presents, I’m coach AI. Until next time, be well."}]