s1_e6.json

[{"role": "system", "content": "He’s been successful in his industry but feels like he’s been typecast in his role. Now he’s hoping for a change and wants to make sure his next position helps him redirect his career. Host Muriel Wilkins coaches this leader through figuring out what he really wants before he commits to a new company."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m coach AI, and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Presents Network. I’m a long time executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who’ve hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals, and figuring out a way to reach them. I typically work with clients over the course of several months; but on this show, we have a one-time coaching meeting, focusing on a specific leadership challenge they’re facing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Today’s guest is someone we’ll refer to as user, to protect his confidentiality. user has had a relatively long career in the military, and when he moved to civilian life to managing large-sized manufacturing plants, he learned how to lead differently, because it was less about the chain of command, and more about getting people on your side. Still, there were some similarities between the two worlds."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The military is very hierarchal and very, I guess, authoritative, with the way the system works. You could essentially tell somebody to jump, and they would have to say, “How high?” Not literally, but that’s the approach there. Whereas, when I went to a steel plant, it’s a unionized facility, you had to take that into account that if you tell them to jump, they’re not going to say, “How high?” So it requires a different approach to your leadership skills in there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So just the way you manage people, the way people react, it’s very different, because this is the real world, as I call it, not the military. For me, have it all as we continuously to teach myself my roles when I stepped in the steel industry, it just allowed me to move from role to role with minimal issues, because I was used to having to teach myself, find the people to connect with, and learn what I needed to do to add value to the team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After many years as the Maintenance Lead in large plants, a role that is literally responsible for keeping the lights on, user is ready for something new. He’s left his position at the plant, and is now trying to figure out what’s next; a question that many of us face at some point in our careers."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m hoping to, as I said, I’ve got a bunch of offers that are going to potentially be coming here in the next couple of weeks. And so, it’s trying to figure out, trying to get better alignment on where I want to go in my career, and what is really the next step to help me achieve my longterm careers? And if I was looking at a year, I want to be in a role that’s helping me develop the skills for that, and opportunities that will allow me to get to where I want to go, long run. So I think it’s just trying to figure out where is the best role that helps me achieve what I want to do. And then, over the next year, I’m hoping in a year I’ll be in that role. And be looking hopefully within a corporation, advancing through the operation, up towards my goals."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As he considers all of this, he’s wondering, “How does he make sure that in whatever company and role he chooses, he’ll be making the choice that will set him on the path for where he wants to be in the longterm?” user wants to know, “What do I do next that will best set me up for the future?” So I started the coaching conversation by learning a bit more about what his career path had been like up until now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While you were in your last company, what was your trajectory like? I know you said you moved around; was it lateral moves? Was it moving up? Or was it all of the above? Kind of share with me a little bit, what your path looked like."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say it was moving up, eventually. The steel industry, they love to lateral you around for 8, 9, 10 years before they move you up. Part of the problem is, I was at a senior manager level at the plant, that for me to move up, there’s only three of those positions in the plant. So you kind of got to wait until somebody moves on. And the individuals in those roles, they typically don’t move on very often. Those roles are far and few in between, which is what’s the tough thing for a lot of people coming into the steel industry, is moving up in the steel industry is very tough. So a sign of them that they like you is, that they move you around. So they start moving you around to other plants. That means you’re on the right career path. It’s just, you got to sometimes wait a long time to get to that next level."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And so, you mentioned that it depended on the individuals that you worked with. So what kind of individuals do you tend to like to work with, who are aligned with your style, and where you felt like you could do your best work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I think one of the best individuals I worked with are ones that kind of gave me the independence to do my job. They would say, “Hey, you need to get from A to B, go figure it out.” And they didn’t dictate all the steps: B, C, D, E, F, all the way through. They just said, “Get from point A to point B; here’s what you need to do. And go figure it out.” I really like that independence of being able to get the job done. I feel like I’m at a point in my career that I don’t need to be micromanaged and told how to do all the individual steps. And so those two primary individuals, they just said, “Here’s what you need to do. Go figure it out. And if you need anything, let us know.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s kind of like we just meshed well, personality, working together. They gave you that opportunity and latitude. And they also gave me the opportunity to add onto my roles and responsibilities, and to pursue things that maybe weren’t part of our core function, and to challenge, I guess, the status quo. But they were also open to doing things differently, and they were actually open to feedback. If I thought things needed to go off in a different direction, or we were doing something wrong, they were also willing to sit down and do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. So what I’m hearing is independence to get the work done, and at the same time pushing you; which sort of falls in line with your whole drive for excellence, right? Somebody pushing you to move forward towards that. So you come out of the steel company, and what were you looking for in your next role?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was looking for an industry that was a little bit more secure in the long run. I was looking someplace that I wasn’t always trying to survive on a day-to-day basis. I was looking to get into an industry that was ideally, that’s on the cord of change, that’s trying to move things for the better. So I think it’s just view me as more of that general manager type person, that can come in and do about any role within a company, and step in and add value."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, what I was leaving out, I was hoping to either get back into their Program Management or Chief of Staff role, just kind of get back to those corporate functions, or even a strategic role in a company is where I wanted to get to. I realize that the Chief of Staff role, and especially the Strategy role are going to be pretty difficult to do, especially with a lot of the pauses in hiring and what people are looking for. It didn’t look like I quite had the skill set, or not everything I needed to do to really line up with those jobs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you now have a job in hand, right? And so, what is keeping you up at night at this point about taking this offer, and as you think about your career, moving forward?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s definitely going to continue that stereotype of engineering and maintenance. It’s a maintenance function within a plant. So that’s probably my biggest concern there, is that I was trying to break from that mold, and I’m right back there. Moving forward, I going to have to work really hard to get out of that type of role. It’s kind of one of those things is, sometimes you may want to be someplace in your life, but people see you for different values that you bring."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s a realization that maybe, “This is where I do add value in the corporate world. Maybe this is where I do best.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "First of all, help me understand a little bit around when you say you’re seen as the maintenance engineer type; what does a maintenance role look like? I’m not familiar with those functions."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s actually your job is to make sure all the equipment operates when it’s supposed to operate. There’s a lot of technical aspects into it, especially early on in your career. Traditionally, it becomes more about your managerial leadership skills as you move up, because then you have to worry about budget, strategic decisions, depending on what you do in the roles."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what draws you to those types of roles?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "One, it definitely adds a lot more variety into your life. The thing that gets a little bit frustrating, you do a project, and then you repeat the same project over. It’s a very… So for me, it just doesn’t push you intellectually and challenges you a lot, because it’s just the same thing over and over."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how are you feeling about this next role then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, there’s going to be a lot of learning. So it’ll be different for me, coming into an established place, to bring it to the next level. And I think it’s going to require some strategic settings. So I think it’s… Try to set the strategy for a plant, I think is unique in this. I think I can definitely add value. I don’t see it as something I’m going to be doing for 10 years, at this point. I think it’s more go and add value; do it for a couple of years, and then you move on to another role within the company."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So if you were to articulate what your key question is right now, or what the problem is that you’re grappling with, how would you state it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And I guess it’s when I’m looking out 15 years down the road, or even 10 years now, I guess at this point is, is that, “Where do I want to be in my career?” One of the questions I had somebody ask me recently, “Do you want to be a CEO?” And I’ve also kind of said, “I want to be a CEO. How do you get there?” But then I heavily question, “Is that really a good fit for where I want to be 10, 15 years from now? Or do I want to be in a different role in the function?” So that’s kind of one of the big questions is, “Where do I want to be 15 years down the road? Do I want to be in that CEO role, or do I want to be in a different role within a company?” I think that’s the big question. And then, “How do I get there?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s take a pause here. It’s clear that while user is ready to move on to the next chapter, he’s unsure about what it might look like. He feels typecast in the role he’s been in. He feels like he’s not being challenged, and he feels the pull to something more, but has a foggy outlook on what his long-term career goals are. Does he want to one day be a CEO? Or does he want a different type of role in the future? And this adds to his uncertainty on what to do next, because he wants to make sure that whatever he does sets him up for success down the line."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The questions churning through user’s mind as he weighs his options are common for anyone trying to course a different path for their career. And it can cause a lot of swirl and confusion. So where I thought user needed most help right now, was bringing structure to his thinking, breaking down this big question of, “What do I want to do with my life?” that consumes all of us at one point or another, into more manageable chunks. And if we could break it down in a more structured way, maybe he would gain more clarity on what’s next. So we pick the conversation back up with that in mind."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you’ve thought about that question, “Where do I want to be in 10, 15 years?” What comes up for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So for me, it just goes down to personality. What do I like doing on the day-to-day business? And, I think that’s kind of where I look at the Chief of Staff role and the CEO; they compliment each other, but they have two very different, I think, places in the company. The CEO obviously is the face of the company at that point. He’s the guy that’s out in the front; whereas that Chief of Staff role, from what I’ve learned and seen, is they really are the guy that works behind the scenes to get things done."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Looking back on my life, and some of my favorite positions, that’s what I just do. As my managers have said, “You just get stuff done. We tell you, you go get it done.” Sometimes it’s being the bulldog in the background; and the way you can do that, I think, you get more freedom doing that when you work in the background. You’re not as concerned with the outward politics of it. For me, it’s not about necessarily being recognized and being rewarded upfront. It’s just knowing I did a good job, and having that freedom to get stuff done. I find I work a lot better and I have more energy when I can collaborate and work with people, instead of having to necessarily lead a team of people, and then deal with all the administrative aspects of that. It’s something you got to do. I don’t like necessarily having to do that every day of the week, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. So it sounds to me like one of the questions that you’re inherently dealing with is, “Do you want to lead as an individual contributor, or do you want to lead in a hierarchical leadership position?” Right? Because there are different ways to lead, right? We use the word lead and automatically assume it’s, you’ve got to be the top person on the pyramid or whatnot. And that’s really from a hierarchical standpoint, versus the skill of leading, which can happen at any level, no matter where you sit in the organization."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so, part of what I hear you saying is, on the one hand, what could be an opportunity for 10, 15 years down the line, is for you to lead an overall organization by being the top individual there, or one of the top individuals there. On the other hand, there’s a way of leading in the organization, more in an individual contributor stance, but where you are working through people by influencing, and working with them collaboratively to get things done. Does that make sense?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, actually that’s a great way. I’ve never really thought about it that way. But that individual, if I look back at my, I guess 18 years of career history, the roles that I’ve probably thrived the best in have also been in those individual collaborator roles, where I work for other people, work with people, pursuing things, and then, those are the roles I’ve typically enjoyed the best. So, my last company, I spent two years working in an individual contributor role; really enjoyed it, it just kind of came to its natural conclusion. The role was really formed for a specific reason for those two years, and it kind of came to an end. And so I moved out into the plant into that hierarchal manager role in that. I enjoyed it for the year, but there was a role I had to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. So part of it is asking yourself, “Which one do you lean towards the most?” And it sounds like from an interest standpoint, in terms of what motivates you, what kind of fires you up, it’s more the sort of activities that you can get done in an individual contributor role, as well as the freedom that it might give you. Right? But as in anything, there are trade-offs. So, if you were to consider more of a people leader role, let’s call it that, versus an individual contributor role; both that are highly impactful, but different, right, different ways of leading. What do you think the trade-offs are that you would be making in one versus the other? If you were to today say, “You know what, I don’t think I’m going to pursue a CEO track.” Is there anything that you feel you would be giving up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess it’s just kind of like being the, I guess you call it “the top person” in the food chain. I also like being in charge of myself, being able to dictate my day-to-day schedule. And that’s kind of why it’s like you get to be CEO, you’re in charge of everything. You have that responsibility. As I found in those individual, with the right manager and the right location, you don’t necessarily lose that, because I’ve had some roles that are very autonomous, that the only time or reason I talked to my boss is to go catch up and just say, “Hey, how was your weekend?” Not necessarily to check up on my work on a regular basis. So that’s kind of where I’m at. I don’t think I give up much by not being a CEO. And that’s kind of where my mindset is."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some days I see besides just being able to say I did it, more than anything, it’s kind of like, “Hey, I’ve only been interested, and then I achieved the pinnacle of what you can in a corporation, by running a company.” But there’s things you give up along that, and being a people leader is not something I’d say, “Hey, I want to be a people leader.” It’s just not, I don’t think my personality meshes well with that; which I think is part of the struggles in the military too, is as an officer, you’re expected to be a people leader. And there’s a lot more stuff that comes along with it that you don’t necessarily are expected to worry about in the business world."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so I think the question that I have for you is, “To what extent are you filtering this, ‘Where am I 15 years from now?’ with this notion of, ‘Where can I be in 15 years from now that will support me having an entrepreneurial mindset?'”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. This concept of entrepreneurial mindset, I think, is really, for me, has just come up more recently, probably within the last couple of months. I was working with somebody to help me craft my story, my message. Entrepreneurial mindset kind of came up during that discussion. When you say entrepreneurial, I think startups; I think you talk about entrepreneurs out there, and I just never… It did sit comfortably with me, but now, based on the conversation today, and a couple of conversations I’ve had with people recently, it’s now being… It’s kind of starting to accept, “Okay, maybe this is who I am, that I didn’t really necessarily understand.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think a big piece of the tension that you’re dealing with is, you’re at this place where you are trying to figure out, or you’re feeling, the tension of, “Do I do what seems to be natural for me, that really reflects who I am? Versus, “Do I do what’s expected of me, in terms of the next step?” And I find that many people will face that inflection sometimes at different times in their career. A lot of times they’re not even aware that they’re there, so they just tend to be on autopilot, and continue with what’s expected of them. Right? These are the people who end up one day being CEO, and like, “How the heck did I get here?” Right? “This is never what I wanted.” And then there are those who feel that tension just as you are, and pause and say, “Okay. What do I do? What’s next? Where do I want to be?” I want to just pause, and have you appreciate that, it’s not an easy decision."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The other thing that I’m going to note for you is, you tend to focus very much on the activity that you would be involved in, in any of your roles; so what you do. And I understand that, you’re a doer, right? What I’m going to offer you, is that you think about where you want to be in the next 10 years, not just focused on what you would be doing. Okay? I want to sort of raise it up a level. And so, there’s a couple of questions that I think you need to ask yourself. The first is, “What is the impact that you want to make? Regardless of function, job, title, salary; just overall, right, at the end of the day, what’s the purpose behind it?” And it doesn’t have to be a, “I want to save the world purpose.” So when you think about that, what comes up for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it’s kind of, the way I look at it is where I’ve been, I think the impact; one of the big companies I’ve been following, and have been looking at has been SpaceX and Tesla, and some of those companies that are really trying to push change for the society. They’re really trying to do things differently; not about maintaining the status quo in society. And those are just two examples that come through. I can really admiring what they’re trying to do. And for me, I want to be someplace that’s trying to challenge the status quo."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So I’m going to ask you to reframe that, and not say, “I want to be someplace that is going to challenge the status quo.” And more, “I want to challenge the status quo.” Because we’re talking about your personal impact here, regardless of where you are. Right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I want to be challenging the status quo. I’ve obviously done that wherever I’ve been, but I want to do that with the job that I do. I want to be able to challenge the status quo someplace, where we can challenge how things are being done in society, or how are things being done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And to what end, right? Because challenging the status quo can be a sport, and we could go at it all day long, and like, “Let’s just challenge the status quo.” And then there could be challenging the status quo to a certain end."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For me, it’s just to make life simpler, so we can focus on what matters most in life. So for me, it’s when I go into a role is, “Okay, let’s change these processes, so that we can get back into focusing on what really matters the most.” So in my last role, one of the things is, people would often spend eight hours day in meetings; and a maintenance role, that’s not good, because I need everybody out there turning wrenches, fixing equipment, and focusing on that. So we got up to two days a week, we were not allowed to have any meetings within our department, because I wanted individuals out on the floor, because it mattered more to be out there, than sitting in a meeting. So for me, I want to be able to disrupt technology or do things differently, so that we can really focus on what matters most to us in our lives, or to do things, to make things simpler."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "user really articulate something critical here; his purpose, his north star, his raison d’etre, however you want to call it. And why is this important? Because this whole time, he’s been stuck on what he should do next, without a clear sense of what drives this decision, which is his “why.” This realization can help him frame which role to choose next, and what guides his career decisions moving forward."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So if we just capture that as a theme, basically, user is the guy who pushes and changes the status quo, so that we, the organization, the team, the people, can focus on what matters most. And he does that no matter where he is; it could be, wherever it is; but this is the underlying theme. Does that resonate with you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So I want you to hold on to that, because that should be at the top of the pyramid of what then cascades down to help you make decisions around where you want to be 10, 15 years from now, but also where you spend your time, and where you focus in your next role. And as you take on different roles, and even in terms of what you do on a day-to-day basis."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it’s very important that we’re not just driven by doing and activities, but those activities are tied to some type of impact and meaning and purpose, whatever you want to call it, that then gives meaning to those activities. Right? So that’s the first question when you ask yourself, “Where do I want to be 15 years from now?” The first question is, “What type of impact do I want to have?” Okay? And you just defined it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The second question is, “How do you want to work on this impact? How do you want to make it happen?” And this is where we get to this question of, “Do I want to do it more as an individual contributor? Do I want to do it more as the top general manager executive?’ It really is a reflection here of your skills. Okay? And this is where we get into the doing part. How do you want to execute on that impact you want to make? So if, again, the impact is, “I want to challenge the status quo.” And my question to you is, “Okay, great. How do you want to do that?” How do you answer that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think we’ve talked about before, that people leader versus individual contributor role. And I’ve also seemed to thrive in those individual type contributor roles, where it’s more about your informal power and your informal managerial skills, versus that formal power and leadership. If I had to choose between the two, the individual contributor roles always seem to spark more joy and interest in my life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay. So we’ve gotten to, “I want to challenge the status quo, so that we can focus on things that matter most. And I want to do that by being an individual contributor collaborator.” I love that word, and I think it really reflects what you’ve been able to do, in terms of working through informal relationships. Right? So as an individual contributor collaborator."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so the third question then becomes, “Where do you want to do this? In what type of environment?”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. When I look at my motivations, what motivates me, here it is. Definitely look for a place that is a forward thinking, disruptive, innovative type of organization. I think it’s kind of the culture of the organization that really intrigues me the most."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So let me ask you a question. I’m sure you’ve been to companies, and maybe you had this in your office, where they have the values listed on a poster in every meeting room. Right? So I want you to imagine you’re walking into again, regardless of role, assuming you have your ideal role; I want you to imagine you’re walking in first day into that company, and you see the values poster on the wall. Just name them, in terms of what comes up first."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My core values for me are truth. And when I talk about truth, it’s having that backbone and disagreeing, unflinching and your accountability and honesty, I think is… “We’re going to take a stand for what we believe, and we’re going to do it; it’s okay to disagree with somebody, as long as you do it in a respectful manner. It’s not a bunch of “yes” people that are just going to say “yes” automatically.” My other core value is excellence. And we talked about it; people care about what they’re working on, and they own their results. And then for me, independence, self-reliance, I think is a huge core value for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All I’m trying to get you to look at, even when you think 10 years, 15 years down the line, or next week, is, do you have an idea in your mind around what would be a good container for the work that you want to do? What I hear you saying is, “10 years from now, I want to work in a place where I’m challenging the status quo, so that we can focus on what matters most. I want to do it as an individual contributor leader, who leverages collaborative skills, working with different relationships. I want to do it in an organization that values excellence, truth, independence, and has a strong, shared sense of purpose and goals. And I want to do it with other individuals.” Right? “So I’m not going to be this lone wolf, just doing it on my own.” That’s the long game. If that resonates with you, now we can take a step back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "“So what are the decisions that I’m making today, and how much are these decisions aligned with putting me on that path for this destination that I’ve outlined for myself 10 years from now, the 10 year destination?” Okay? And this is where you’re going to have to make some trade-offs, right? This is going to work completely against your drive for perfection, because there is not going to be a perfect decision. What you have to ask yourself is, “Which trade-off is more in alignment with this vision that I have for myself?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s the question: A. And B, “Is this a trade-off I can live with for now?” Because it’s temporary. Everything changes. The trade-off will be different in your next role. So as you think about where you are now, right, and some of the decisions that you have to make; taking the offer you have, potentially entertaining the new opportunity that’s just come up. Which trade-offs would put you more in alignment with this longer term vision?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know the opportunity that I have right now, I definitely, I think I could live with. The conversation my wife and I had this morning is that the job that came up, there’s some risk, but there could be a good reward from doing that. And it’s like, “Do you take the short term pain for the long-term gain?” The role I have now, it’s a much more safer choice, even though it’s not my ideal industry I’ve necessarily wanted to work in; but it does give me that exposure. And I think it just gives me more experiences that are different. Whereas, if I go to this other role, it’s kind of ward the same. It’s kind of more like, “Hey, get my foot in the door at a company, show them I can add value, and then you really can find that next role.” That’s kind of the way I’ve viewed it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You framed it as short-term pain for long-term gain. And I would throw the question back at you, in terms of thinking about it in terms, what’s the short-term gain, rather than short-term pain? I think the discussion we had while we’ve been focusing on these just-in-time decisions that you have to make, in reality, it’s not going to be the last time you have to make these types of decisions."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the biggest takeaway is really this contrast/comparison about, “Do I want to be a people leader versus an individual collaborator contributor?” It’s kind of having that honest internal decision on which way I want to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I think what I would recommend, strongly recommend, is as you continue on defining what’s next for you, that you really calibrate your internal dialogue and your conversations with yourself, and even your conversations with your wife, and your friends, and whoever else you use as your sounding board, against key questions that we asked. And I think specifically around which role, which position, and company is going to most honor your desire to be in a individual contributor leadership position down the line, in a way that you can actually move change and innovate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And if it ends up, for practical reasons, that in the short term, you can’t take a role like that, then it means, “How do I take advantage of this short-term position?I’ve just taken a little bit of a detour, but how do I then course-correct and come back to the path that I’ve outlined for myself?” Okay? And always come back to that; with that question of, “To what extent am I aligning with it?” Not a hundred percent. It doesn’t have to fit into the groove; but is it in the right direction? And if it’s not, okay. Then what purpose does it serve, and for how long? And that’s fine too. Okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So hopefully this was helpful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Great conversation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good. I’m glad you found that helpful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "While I love s strong conclusion as much as the next person, user did not leave our session with a final answer of what he should do next, and which offer to accept, because quite simply, he wasn’t ready for that just yet. And my role was not to give him the answer. What he did walk away with, is a clear framework of how to think through his decision, in a way that would get him out of the endless loop he found himself in."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And sure enough, I heard from user a few weeks after our session. He shared that he had accepted a position in a different industry, that would enable him to venture out of the role that he felt he’d been typecast in. And he’ll be a people collaborator, responsible for working across teams as a cross-functional leader, which ultimately is the path he wants for his career; a path which will serve his purpose best, both in the short term and the longterm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thanks to my Producer, Mary Dooe, Assistant Producer, Liz Sanchez, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations, and to you, our listeners, who share in their journeys. If you’re dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you, and possibly have you on the show. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. And of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward; share it with your friends, subscribe, leave a review. From HBR Presents, this is coach AI."}]