attributed_transcript.json

{"transcript": ["SPEAKER_03: If it's like my family, I definitely have no subjects.", "SPEAKER_02: Hey Daniel, hey Eric. Welcome back, Eric.", "SPEAKER_08: Thanks so much.", "SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's great to be here.", "SPEAKER_01: Hi, Virginia. No.", "SPEAKER_02: All right, let's kick off. I wanted to start out with some reminders. First, we have a book club coming up on inspired in four weeks. On August 7th, I just re-read it myself. It's a good read. It's highly aligned with how I think about product management and does a good job of explaining why some of these things are important. That I also believe to be important. So it's nice to have another voice explaining all of that. So please do read that. I think I'm going to update the new hire on boarding dock and ask all new hires to read this as well. So that we all, everybody in the team is on the same page with respect to this book. Let's see. Reminder B. Remember there's this interview spreadsheet. CS and sales have populated that with the number of customer contacts for meetings. Please do follow up on that. I want to ensure goodwill with that team and follow up promptly with meetings with these customers so that that team can see that we're taking advantage of it. Third reminder, we've got a little engagement survey. I'm going to run this once a month in Q3. Just to take a pulse given all the change going on, please do take a minute to fill it out. I've, you know, quick questions and then one free form where you can share whatever feedback you have. Fabian didn't receive it. I'm pretty sure I went through my emails. I think maybe it's on my end, but I'm happy to fill it out. But I didn't get it.", "SPEAKER_00: Need to get it to. All right, I will I'll ask Jessica to recent that to you. Anybody else in the same condition where you did not receive it.", "SPEAKER_02: I don't recall, but is there a way to put the link to the survey in the agenda? Well, it's it's personal. It's it's tied back to your user ID so we can track which team we're on and that kind of thing. I do believe it's anonymous, but nevertheless everyone has their own custom ID. So I'll ask Jessica to send it to Fabian and Karina.", "SPEAKER_08: Anybody else?", "SPEAKER_02: I just I hadn't seen it in Scott, but I searched my email real quick. And it looks like that's the title of the email. So if you just searched for that in your energy email, you should be able to find it. If you got it. Paul survey. Culture ramp. Okay. If anybody else didn't get it, please ping me. All right. Next reminder. We we need we have a goal of at least three customer interviews per PM. There's an OKR issue out there. If you haven't updated it lately, please do so. And remember, we have three weeks until Q2 to hit our goals. Please please do invest the time to get those set up. And get at least three done if you haven't already. Next one category maturity page last week. We talked about this Josh did a great job of creating some new views. One of which is sort of this flow chart showing how mature we're going to be at a given point in time, which raised questions about whether we were forecasting that accurately. If you haven't already, please go in and either confirm that it's accurate or updated. Thanks to Kenny for creating that issue. Somebody added direction maturity page.", "SPEAKER_07: You want to talk about that. But I would just mean, you're offensive.", "SPEAKER_00: Sometimes adding the link there. That's all folks.", "SPEAKER_07: You've seen the updates there for the charts. Just check it out. So. Got it. So it's a good way you can get a sense for like, you know. It's hard when it's in tabular form, but when it's charted, it's much easier to see.", "SPEAKER_02: Like if it's achievable or not, based on some of the trends. And there's also fiscal down stays level trends as well. So you can see higher stage, in particular is trending or essentially trending. So. Great. Thanks, Josh. All right. Some team updates. We hired a couple more PMs. We got a good rhythm going on hiring. We hired Gabe Weaver. He originally came through. They've growth funnel. But we have a really strong candidate for that fourth slot. So we're going to target Gabe for a third managed PM. The chart or that team is to be defined, but bottom line. We're going to have a third group in the managed area. And Gabe will lead that. And then dove her skivets. We just hired him as the APM monitoring. He's got a great background in monitoring. And that's most recently been it elastic. So thank you to everyone who's been involved in the hiring loop. I know it's taking a lot of energy from everybody. But I think our hiring. Processes continues to pick up speed. Be to be. I worked with.", "SPEAKER_04: With Christy and David Sakamoto to change in language around customer results. Just wanted to make sure you all saw that. So there's the MR. It's got on that one. I just the. There's a diff highlights what is new content I believe. And there's one section that is great. I can totally understand why we're at that about prioritize ruthlessly. But then the rest is I guess a bunch of formatting changes. And I don't know if there's new content in any of the dog feeding. I guess the TLDR, the addition of that prioritize ruthlessly. Or is there some other.", "SPEAKER_02: Point we're trying to make in this change. And a little while I think there were a number of changes. But before the handbook basically read that internal feedback is worth 10 times more than external feedback.", "SPEAKER_07: And I understand why we want internal feedback because of dog fooding and using our own product. It's it's a it's a great channel for feedback. But I think it was sending the message that customers weren't nearly as important as internal opinion. And both Christie and I want to move off of that position like we should be customer first and treat our own teams as a customer. But let's I don't I don't want people to interpret that our own internal opinion is worth 10 times more than a customer's opinion if that makes sense. So it is mostly language wherever that showed up in the handbook. One comment I had on this is that some of the text seems like we should focus on core competencies as opposed to new scope and. Like as in we should focus for what we're best at. So I might. Anyways, that's one thought I had on this.", "SPEAKER_02: I don't remember that being the point of it. Maybe it reads that way out. And I feel free to continue to suggest tweaks. The point was. Let's prioritize and do what matters most first just it's kind of what I've been free to the whole time like let's in your area wherever that is do what matters first don't try to do it all.", "SPEAKER_04: At once we're going to have to work our way through. That was the point.", "SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I don't know if this is a follow up issue in the way you described it it doesn't seem controversial but I will say there was a big discussion and a recent initiative. You know from said in other leaders that we should heavily prioritize dog fooding because there were parts there are teams within the company that were not. Utilizing our features and we wanted to make sure that the product team was responsive to request from them. It's a little bit different than saying it's about our internal opinion like that we should we had always said we should validate it so that clarification is good that we want to make sure it's about us. Saying this is in line with where we want to take the product and where we're hearing customers but if the internal customer wants it we should. The original thinking was that we should emphasize it. I just want to like if the intent was to make sure we were just clarifying that same position but if we're saying actually we should kind of pull back from the push for more dog fooding.", "SPEAKER_04: No, maybe different.", "SPEAKER_02: I would. Please don't conflate the two. Okay. We very much still want to dog food. I think the point is when you're thinking of customers for your thing think of our internal teams early like. You can get great feedback from them. They have an incentive to work with you. There's very little risk in rolling out things early to them. So treat them like a customer and think of our internal teams early as you're rolling something out. That's still very much the message. But. Let's not over rotate on internal feedback or internal opinion. Let's still seek external feedback to because that's just one customer of many. Cool. Okay. Yeah. Does. All right. To see customer training discovery training coming soon. Sarah O'Donnell and her team are going to do a bunch of sort of quick videos on a variety of customer discovery topics. So super excited for that. They should start dropping. Any day now. I think starting this week. And so we'll. We'll release us to you as they come out. We'll embed them in the. How we work description or team pages well. All right. Number three 12 to kick off feedback. Josh. Thanks for leading the charge. I thought you did a good job of him seeing and sort of adding color commentary in between. I thought the screenshots definitely helped. There were a bunch that did not have them. I was wondering why is it just because we're not there yet on many of these. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, some of the commentary. I don't know or Nicole added that. Yeah. Many of the issues. We're saying we're going to do UX front end and back end in the same iteration. So it hasn't started. And in some they're like. I can think of a number where they're just aren't appropriate screenshots or at least there weren't screenshots or mockups created in advance. Okay. For the purposes of front end working on it because front end was going to work on it without a mockup. Okay.", "SPEAKER_05: I'd love to get to where we're a bit ahead. So we'll have more of these earlier and hopefully the customer discovery flow will get us further ahead on that. In my case some of the features also just have no UX component as a no UI component that could be screenshot.", "SPEAKER_02: I understand. Yeah. I don't expect everyone. I mean, user judgment if it doesn't need it fine. But where we do need design if it'd be great to get at least a month ahead. So as we roll into dev, we have that to offer them. Scott, just a quick question to you. How do you feel about presenting like balsamic or super low fi mockups on the kickoff call?", "SPEAKER_08: Fine with that. Okay. Because that could be an option to for pms that are waiting for UX to work with the same sprint. And I know that plans done a pretty good job at at least in the past of kind of running ahead of UX and saying, okay.", "SPEAKER_02: This is kind of what I think I want this to look like before spinning UX cycles on making a more high fi mockups. Just if you think it does a better job of describing it than the issue itself than use it.", "SPEAKER_08: I think I think in some cases like a picture can be worth a thousand words. I mean, I don't know how many words you throw at something. It's like, you know, for example, one of my things that I request or I I reported on for the release. The kickoff meeting was expanding the epic view in the roadmap and like those are basically just a bunch of buzzwords. But together that you're like, okay, what does that mean expanded epic in the run? And I'm just I literally thought on that one of like 20 minutes saying, how do I make this epic? How do I make this issue title like more descriptive for customer value? And it just came down to like, that is the functionality we're adding. What does that mean? Oh, here's the screenshot. You can see that we're going to add a drop down. You can see issues and children uppicks that are attached to that epic. And in that case, like, I was like, I'm so thankful I have a screenshot. Even though that one is actually not a high fi mockup, it's more is more low fi. It was a little bit piece together. So yeah, I think like in general, there's a lot more value if we can show something like that. So, you know, product manager, you can you can consider that you should feel free that you know, your empowered to take a tool at your comfortable with even it might even be just like go with slides and make something. That gets you at least out part of the way there in terms of what you want the experience to look like.", "SPEAKER_02: Yep, perfect. I thought the talk track shifted was definitely more a problem focused. I know just a number of speakers really trying to zero and on that which is perfect. Some of them could have been more problem focused. I thought so just keep. Keep considering that as you as you.", "SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's important to be able to pitch these things in ways that people that aren't close to it can understand. And so just think about that. How do I explain this is someone who's cold. Who doesn't know a darn thing about this. Why should they care that getting that crystal in your in your thinking is going to be important no matter what. So it's time will spend. Thanks, Scott. This is green. I just add to that if you don't mind.", "SPEAKER_02: I think this has always been a challenge in product even before I've joined get lab for many people is how to how to get there on some of this terminology. When those of us have deep technical background. So my thought would be is there a way that you can start sharing. You know, we're applauding good examples of this so that the product team can start to kind of. Reminate on this and and develop that scale if or not there yet. Yeah, I thought Lucas were very well framed up. Those those two popped out at me as yeah, that's the problem we're trying to solve. Check those out. Oh, look through for some other examples. Thank you for the suggestion. All right, 3D we went long. We just have a ton of speakers, which I love that every that lots of people get a chance to speak. So I'm good with that, but we're going to have to. We're going to have to limit the number of items. Probably. So it looks like there's some other ideas in here. Perhaps themes. Yeah, I mean, if there are some that relate to each other, you could tell a story. We're trying to prove this and then a b and c tied back to it. I think it's okay to be pretty brief in your description as long as you're hitting. What it is, and if somebody is really interested, they can dive deep. The themematic is a good idea. The courted video if you really want to go deep, maybe it's technically complex. That's a great idea. And then you can just cover the customer value to high level, only the detail to the video. Watch statistics. I think Josh looked this up last time. I think he said there were a thousand. Oh, there we go. Kenny's putting in. So somewhere between 500 and a thousand.", "SPEAKER_00: To kind of add to the time, just a feedback, I was timing myself this time. And I had two features or two listed and I hit three minutes in 14 seconds. Obviously I can shorten that. So when we talk about, you know, I think somebody mentioned doing two or coupling it down. It's interesting that I landed there with the two that I chose.", "SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that feels about average.", "SPEAKER_04: But we've had how many speakers will probably have to be a couple minutes max per person. I mean, Eric pointed this out in the next line.", "SPEAKER_02: I do think we are do for a rethink of how we're doing the kickoff because we're going to have next month. We're going to have 25 people trying to give content and even at two minutes already gone. So yeah, we expanded.", "SPEAKER_04: I will give a shout out for Jason. I know because he's on paternity leave created a video, but I think the original intent of the kickoff was actually just as a company we had a retrospective and a kickoff. A retrospective immediately followed by a kickoff and we just decided to post that on YouTube. I mean, I post a whole bunch of content on YouTube. So just just having what you would normally do for your kind of like grooming or kickoff within your individual group posted to YouTube and us. Maybe having a specific channel for people who wanted to follow it. We should discuss it in an issue and come up with something I do think prior to next release kickoff.", "SPEAKER_02: Just to evaluate alternatives to the format.", "SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean, I don't even if we said every person has one minute. I feel like we're doing a disservice because we're now highlighting much less because we feel like we have a time constraint and need to keep it into one synchronous 30 minute block.", "SPEAKER_02: We need to do that.", "SPEAKER_04: Okay.", "SPEAKER_07: Yeah, plus one to revamping it, I think. I think we're trying to, it's like, it's got so many jobs right now that we're not doing good job it.", "SPEAKER_02: I mean, if we're one of them. I think that feels the most important. Customers are internal and it's just like kind of getting internal in about because like the people tend that thing that we had like 50 people on a zoom call. Alone, not even considering YouTube. People are asking about what happened to YouTube link and things like that so. It's it's well attended internally. So I think there's for alignment. So I'm a little on the, you know, marketing value of like the sort of like a release.", "SPEAKER_07: For fictional customers, it kind of feels like better off having a webinar or live stream on the release date.", "SPEAKER_02: Right.", "SPEAKER_06: Yeah, maybe the externally focused one would be more about what we just shipped. There was a webinar that used to happen called release writer.", "SPEAKER_03: I think I participated in a couple of those three or three of them back to back and they were pretty poorly attended from what my experience was and I think they actually got ended by the product marketing team for that reason. I'm sure someone from that team could actually give feedback. But I think one thing about the time limit is it's really hard to motivate. Problems particularly like in a short amount of time, particularly when they're very technical like has product categories grow in maturity and sophistication like the problems become more and more specific that we're solving. And so motivating those specific reasons and why we're going after like this specific tiny piece of the very mature category. And it's hard to do it 30 seconds in an item and so if we want to do that better.", "SPEAKER_06: That's going to put more and more pressure on like communicating every reasonable number of items. I think. Okay.", "SPEAKER_02: Thank you all for the feedback.", "SPEAKER_03: I like the idea of creating an issue and perhaps tweaking the format before next month. I also like the idea of asking internal and external constituents. I like or don't like about the format. Yeah, just one final thought on that like. I love that it's a half an hour. I almost even like take picked particular categories over over. Linking the time as an example just because I feel the feeling that if you want to watch it consistently, it's going to be in that block. But that's just me. Like if, you know, other customers or, you know, saying send it with like the larger block, then that's the right way to go. So that's that's where I love to get feedback and some fashion to get say, okay, you know, here's how we should change it.", "SPEAKER_02: But we clearly have gone breath wise. We've gone so much broader that it's going to be hard to cover all the topics in it. Yeah. Okay. Thanks Kenny for starting the issue. James, over to you for number four.", "SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I just thought I'd share this. For many, I think many on this call haven't heard Mark comes back speak about product discoveries. But he advocated that there's quite a number of times previously from his experience reckoning these that a prior company. So the idea is kind of different to it. I guess a UX discovery sprint. I think Fabian linked one of the books about that where it was really focused on UX iteration and research, the product discovery sprint is more focused on kind of like actually building something, iterating on something that's built and trying to get to some sort of MVC really quickly by trying to make the process more synchronous. So the source code group is going to try and do that around file by file, different navigation to solve performance and usability problems in 12.3. And I thought it'd be interesting to share that because internally we've been wrestling with like how to make this work well in an async slash remote environment. So we're looking at trying to confine the participants in a specific time zone so that we can all be available with a significant amount of overlap. But that's also difficult because we have it kind of excludes automatically 50% of the team who are just geographically remote from any of their peers. We only have one UX designer that's only available in the European times zone. So some interesting challenges there. If it goes well, we're going to try and replicate it a release or two later on a different problem that is also really complicated and hard. We're going to make progress on quickly, but I'll share any findings we have. And if anyone's interested in discussing that we need more and put a meeting my calendar or drop me a set message. This is great, James.", "SPEAKER_02: By the way, I think the UX team is going to run. Well, let me just say we have the option to run one with Google Ventures. Who's one of our investors in that sprint book that Fabian link to was written by a guy from GV. They did hundreds of these things for our clients. They know what they're doing. So if we get a chance to do one with them, we should. We're going to have to figure out how to do it within our async model though. So whatever you learn from yours, James, please feed that back.", "SPEAKER_06: Super interesting topic. I think if we could get good at this asynchronously, that would be a breakthrough. Yeah, I think one other interesting challenge is that the sprint sort of terminology is kind of.", "SPEAKER_02: Challenging and like it's not sustainable to be doing design sprints or discovery sprints on a daily basis. Whether or not we were in person or not, it's not scalable to actually sprint all the time. So choosing the right task, choosing the right time is I think one of the other challenges. I agree. Yeah, you don't want to do this for everything because well, if you follow the to the letter, it takes a whole week. And you're totally dedicated to it, which is amazing for focus sake, but you can't get anything else done. So depending on how we structure this, it would need to be done for things that are really big unknowns.", "SPEAKER_01: We're dedicating a huge chunk of time like that is worth it and not everything clears that bar. I think it's also most relevant for for stages that are very very interesting to us in the very beginning kind of like that.", "SPEAKER_02: Tyran was like one of their biggest example for Google ventures when they always say like solving clinical trials for the world is like a super complex problem. So they just figured out what is this thing that we can do so that we can start getting there and I think these are different ones that. The sprint is useful. We used it pretty successfully at my last company around pricing and packaging stuff. And then ran a bunch of interviews with customers on that. So. I've seen it work. All right. Okay, Christopher number five. Yeah, just want to call out. We've over the past month we've had a significant number of. And we've had a lot of challenges related to dot com and that affect at least a one customer revenue with actual and because of that. You know, we've had some some focus from an exact leadership perspective. So I encourage everybody to look at that document. And kind of look through it in particular is a couple things from an engineering perspective link you aware of one is as we started it infrastructure. So we started to develop a board where we're going to start matching issues up and trying to make sure that if that those get prioritized highly. Where appropriate particularly for anything that you know effects performance around these issues. The other issue that I put in there was one around. That's listed specifically, which is around the fact of prioritizing P performance availability work. Significant features of this up to go recent outage last week was is that the redist server apparently can't handle the load anymore. And we started digging into it. We found a bunch of stuff that we hadn't checked. Like, for instance, it's an example of our J unit tests were basically going and getting cached. And there was no limit on the number of unit tests that could actually be cached. So we're getting these like blocks of like several megabytes of data that had the basic would be transferred around and read us. And that's really what's affecting its performance overall. From a caching service perspective. So consequently, Scott, I said that to you, I hope that's okay. I guess it feels like those like you need to help out when it hurts the effect of you know how do we just make sure that we get this kind of systematically going. And I just want to make sure that everybody was aware and just kind of open up for discussion if there were any questions or any feedback or really feedback on it from that perspective. I added some comments to it Christopher.", "SPEAKER_04: Okay, I haven't had a chance to look. I apologize about that problem.", "SPEAKER_05: Can I ask do we and maybe make this a question for you? Do we categorize performance issues as bugs? We do have a performance label, but they should be under under bugs.", "SPEAKER_04: Okay.", "SPEAKER_03: Yeah.", "SPEAKER_01: This is an example where oftentimes the way we treat performances is a reactionary. This is trying to think about it more in a proactive way. So like as an example, I'll give a horrible example, but my work that Amazon tags originally when Amazon was created tags were. They were expecting just a label, you know, certain instances and that was it. And it turns out that all customer started using like 20 and 30 or 50 tags and they're like, what the X going on. And they realized tags were being used to basically share environmental information, so the VMs could they could put the same drop of code on two different VMs. And they could behave differently based on the tag, which was a total novel way for customers to use it. So then they had the basically limited number of tags that they could use because it wasn't scaling with the system effectively. So like this is kind of another example where like I think we got to start thinking in terms of, you know, like when we create something new or new feature of piece of functionality like what's the cost associated with that right because like it does cost something internal and I'm not asking product managers to necessarily think in terms of the exact bytes. But I am concerned to think in terms of like, you know, what are the expectations around it? Because like as an example, if we went back and looked at G unit test reporting, you know, if we said unlimited, that's, you know, that's a tough engineer and call right. Particularly, I guess it's free right now for customer sales is a minor standing.", "SPEAKER_00: We also don't have a number of repose mirror and we don't have a limit on that and that that seems dangerous.", "SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so I guess I would comment, you know, I think the product team is expected to prioritize all things and to understand them deeply whether they're a security issue or performance concern. I think what you're highlighting is. In order to be proactive, I don't know if the product team would immediately know the impact of a proposed change. So maybe that's not too neat for our infrastructure, SRE, stable counterparts to be involved in vetting and looking at issues early in the pipeline to decide whether or not they would.", "SPEAKER_03: Yeah, or let's say we're implementing a feature like let's say we were implementing mirror from scratch.", "SPEAKER_00: Like the first question we should be asking is like how many mirrors is a customer expected to be able to support and what I want to start charging for if they get above the certain limit.", "SPEAKER_03: You know, and right now we don't and you could argue that scaling is just as much a reason for customers to start paying us as is feature sets. That's that's kind of the argument I would do. Because those things cost money like whether we like to admit it or not.", "SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Chris, I would agree with you on what you're trying to sort of shape up and call out here and the sense of you know going through pages for example. The performance of of getting those pageal is loaded. Is not great and I don't know if we set out originally to track some of those performance things. But I think that performance and into your point, can I think performance should be somewhere incorporated. As we move forward and something we should be thinking about for scalability across the board.", "SPEAKER_04: Because it's just as important as bringing forth that really cool thing to them is that that really cool thing works and people will stay there to use it.", "SPEAKER_00: I think just as a cycle, I think we have something the product and book that I read like a couple days ago on performance something like fast applications are like always you know like more usable. And I think that's that's definitely important and I also think that. GitLab.com is massive, I think we have 4 million users and for example for geo I know that only by actually interacting with the infrastructure we are getting feedback on some of the performance bottlenecks that we are just not seeing otherwise. And so I think that's actually also really valuable and in that regard maybe also like again you know dog fooding these things helps and I think with the combination of CD we may hit a lot of those things. Yeah and the dog fooding thing on that front is a little confusing me I met with. Marin to talk about that and you know there's sort of this mentality of looking at dot com first are leading with dot com for scalability and I just it's not really crisp to me where we're going from making sure that we're. You know how we approach me and sure that we intact scalability for dot com if we're starting to dot com or restarting somewhere else. And from a dog fooding perspective.", "SPEAKER_06: I'm pretty sure the handbook says that we're meant to well least the guidelines used to be that for new features that were meant to be available on GitLab dot com and so posted at the same time and that there used to be a production ready checklist. And that I think the engineering team was responsible for I know that for when he wants to go there was a production readiness process that we had to go through. And certainly with Giddly we consider these things on the source code front where readily considering scale like moving terabytes of data from the database and objects storage and considering all these sorts of things performance is very much a feature and should be considered that and. I think particularly in categories where adoption is still growing and early stages of maturity performance like understandably is less of a concern because there's lower usage so.", "SPEAKER_00: Like solving scale at like any normal level doesn't make sense commercially like necessarily when usage is small so there is a bit of a juggling. Because we don't want to build a product for billions of users if there's only I don't know 20,000 users experimenting with our newest feature. So there's an iterative approach and you speak taken but I would agree that particularly coming from a team that's digging out a lot of technical debt and solving a lot of performance problems all the time. We probably historically not been very good at picking the right moment to pay off technical debt and address performance problems until they become fires. Yeah, so to to that point just real quick James and sorry Scott I think some things are obvious like when we look at our progressive deliveries. Strategy I think that we like if you look at something like feature flags or something like that's something that I think is going to be like I wouldn't imagine that that's not going to be a key feature that we're going to bring forward.", "SPEAKER_06: So I feel like that should be a give me on whether adoption has yet struck or not. But the second thing that is not clear to me like again when I was interviewing Marin about dog fooding is that I noticed that Marin's like we don't this isn't we weren't they didn't come to us first and so this is not scalable or this is not usable for us internally. And so it's like the approach and process moving forward to dog food in the right spots is not clear to me or you know what the best practice has been or if anybody's you know crack that. Yeah, I can give a concrete example is I did a call with Marin a few months back around confidential murder quests. So we knew that customers wanted to resolve them we knew that we wanted to do that and we're trying to get rid of dev.gilab.org. So I had a video call with him and a bunch of acin conversations with like I've got these ideas for the first iteration looks like and then we did a few calls and worked through them and worked out which were the things that need to happen and so we're shipping the first iteration of that 12.1. So we coordinated with them and spoke I spoke with Marin quite a lot to make sure whatever we were building was useful and would solve the security problems that they had as well as our own ones so. Yeah, I agree it needs to be proactive when offering a ship something's useful or that the infrastructure team is going to want to opt into unless we've had a conversation with them in advance. All right, it's 30 sec and I had one like the last time. It's sometimes really important for customers as well that we're running it on get lab.com before they adopt it. So one example is we built SSL TLS support in Giddily but it's not turned on and get lab.com. And so the customer that we built it for isn't using it because they're waiting for our production team to turn it on because they want to see before they turn it on for their enormous instance. Have we actually proven it at the world's largest get lab instance scale.", "SPEAKER_07: So I think that's one important reason why we always need to make sure that features are on and I'm getting used on get lab.com. Just again, my rep, sorry, I got a couple things I think we definitely have a stronger definition of done as part of our precious delivery right and so. The introduction to send down is it needs to run at scale and get lab.com successfully and not below the cost model not below performance and if it does it's just going to be rewarded. Frankly, and that should be the bar for getting features across the line. That doesn't mean for new features. You know, that have low usage that you know, I was there in fact really quite small, but these still it needs to be within reason. I totally agree that you don't want to overbuild on the first iteration for planning for millions of users. That's just making a sense. But yeah, I think that's one aspect. I think their aspect is that I'm going to come across run pricing and we can maybe have a fall out here on like a handbook update, but. I think it's interesting that customers will absorb the cost on self managed of of compute and so for them if they want to have a ridiculous number of. You know, mirrored is then, you know, and then it's fine. They're paying for it. So use cases on their dime. And so maybe a way of thinking about this is to have some level of controls. You can set if you want your themes and some of those sort of have have some way to control that.", "SPEAKER_02: And matter of behavior for when we're covering the cost of those things. But yeah, anyways. Thank you all great topic Christopher. Please pile on that issue with thoughts on how to. How to handle this. I like you're suggesting on definition of done Josh. Right.", "SPEAKER_00: Karina six and seven. Yes. So I submitted an MR for the product. Can book yesterday. And we're going through this process of getting more self organized in the release. Um, uh, area and with our engineering and and user design partners. And you know, one of the things that we recognize and it's documented in the issue below in number seven is. You know, one our delivery percentage is not been great. Which you've heard me talk about. But. It has been a grant that we need to self organize around some method and what we found and sort of the last prioritization for a release scope is that we have a lot of. We have a lot of oversized issues and features that. You know, honestly need a need a beat or release to go through user research. Um, maybe look at the code if they've never seen the code. Look, you know, reviewed that piece of code before or makes the recommendations on the best way to solve. So I put some thinking around, you know, that sort of, you know, that dual track mindset. Uh, dual track agile kind of launching off of what user experiences recently updated for dual track agile. So feedback on that.", "SPEAKER_08: And then the second piece is that this experiment running is relieving some of my dual track agile approach just to organize our conversation. How we open issues for areas that we need a discovery beat versus presenting an issue that is actually ready for delivery. Um, one thing that was interesting Scott and we were talking about, you know, just the kickoff call and having some, you know, images and more to share. Um, that's definitely where I think we'd like to be with release is getting ahead of that curve and really having. I'm some concrete understanding and prototypes of what we're trying to present deliver. Um, but when we looked at sort of kind of going through that process, you know, this is really for complex things or heavy lifting. Um, because, you know, it is about a 20 to 30 day lead time to kind of release. So just, and so we have some targets.", "SPEAKER_02: Um, to improve, um, you know, our hypothesis on leveraging this. Um, you got to follow it there if you haven't put, but, um, it kind of tied together. But I love and put on the hands of a piece. Thank you, Karina for creating these and sharing these. I think you're on the right track in parallel. I've been working with like Christopher and Eric and Christie to outline a high level description of our software development life cycle, which will have two tracks. This is sort of competing content there or maybe or maybe they could be merged. So thank you for doing this. I may slow roll it a little bit to make sure that we have one way of describing the flow we'd like to go through. But thank you very much for getting it kicked off. Any questions for Karina? If not, Joshua, what are you?", "SPEAKER_07: Yeah, just to be honest, I just went through a ring the promise label to playing priority.", "SPEAKER_02: Um, general meaning is a large of the same. I always shouldn't be promising teachers and so this is just a way to flag it. Um, and that way it's a reminder for PM's that this issue had some importance left with external dependencies. And so just be aware of it. So you picked over to use it. Um, I did note in the label text that it should only be applied by product managers and in particular the responsible pod manager for that section. Um, so it shouldn't be going to apply by. Damn, anyone else. Awesome. I like that terminology a lot better. Thank you, Josh. All right, five minutes of spare anything else. If not, have a great Tuesday. What are you? 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