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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518032 | [S1] Right, exactly. Yeah. But that- [S2] I don't know that that's- [S1] That should not be your yardstick for- [S2] That's not the thing to- No. [S1] Because, you know, you really need to think about your, you know, your health, not just whether this- [S2] Sure. [S1] ... thing is going to, to kill you or not, as the decision matrix through which you pop a- [S2] Right. [S1] ... pop a pill. And it comes on to this concern around melatonin because there was a study, I think it's one that you mentioned too, | 23.32 | 3.175437 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518032.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518033 | [S1] ... you know, pill, and it's 478% more than 10 milligrams, and we're already at 10 milligrams at many tens of times more than is a physiological, rather than a super physiological dose. [S2] Yeah. [S1] We do need to be a bit thoughtful. [S2] Yeah. | 19 | 3.368297 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518033.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518034 | [S1] Yeah, remember those hamsters, folks. [S2] [LAUGHS] [S1] Uh, uh, well, and I do appreciate the deep dive on melatonin because I think people need to understand that it's, it's nuanced. It's a matter of dosages and timing, et cetera, and that it may have its place, as you mentioned, in, in older individuals. [S2] Yeah. [S1] Um, and I should mention that I, | 19.36 | 3.38562 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518034.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518035 | [S1] We just don't have a particularly good set of studies that have targeted exclusively three and eight. We do have lots of studies that have just looked at magnesium in general for sleep, and overall, the data is un-compelling. [S2] Interesting. [S1] And for a while, I, I was confused as to why. Where did this come from, this kind of myth of magnesium? So I started looking back into the literature, and | 26.92 | 3.344694 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518035.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518036 | [S1] ... supplemented with magnesium and tried to restore those levels, some of those sleep problems dissipated. And then that seems to have gotten lost in sort of some game of sort of like whispers around the room, and it's become translated into people who don't have sleep problems, who are healthy sleepers and who are healthy in general, and who have healthy, normal levels of magnesium, if they take more magnesium, they will sleep better. And the data really there is not good. [S2] Interesting. [S1] Once again, the only | 29.48 | 3.241603 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518036.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518037 | [S1] So maybe some additional studies looking specifically at threonate or biglycinate would be, would be useful. [S2] I'd love to have, yeah. [S1] And magnesium's involved in so many cellular processes, you can imagine that this effect, if it truly exists, is, uh, as we say in science, in the noise, meaning it's in the, it's in the, the jitter of the data, but to isolate the real effect, one needs to do some more refined studies. [S2] Yeah. [S1] Um, | 21.72 | 3.16958 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518037.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518038 | [S1] What are some things that are of interest to you, if not things that you happen to take? Um, I, these are not things that I personally take, mostly because I just haven't experimented with them. Uh, Valerian root, uh- [S2] Yeah. [S1] ... is one. Um, tart cherry and kiwi fruit. [S2] [LAUGHS] [S1] T- tell me about, tell me about Valerian root, tart cherry, and kiwi fruit. This is new to me. Um, I mean, I've certainly heard of them. | 26.92 | 3.462061 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518038.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518039 | [S1] And, um, tart cherry and kiwi sounds delicious. [S2] [LAUGHS] [S1] Uh, but wh- what, what's happening with Valerian root tart cherry and kiwi? And are we talking about eating tart cherries and kiwis and Valerian roots? [S2] Ye- yes. [S1] Or are we talking about taking them in pill form? | 15.12 | 3.102953 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518039.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518040 | [S1] Usually it's supplements, but it's also both for tart cherries and for kiwis. It's the actual, you know, fruit themselves. Valerian often touted as a beneficial sleep aid, and lots of people swear by it too, but the evidence is actually quite against that. [S2] Oh, really? [S1] Not that it makes your sleep worse, but- [S2] Mm-hmm. | 21.72 | 3.390204 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518040.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518041 | [S1] of at least the seven good studies that I've been able to find. And typically, these are of the nature of what we call a randomized placebo crossover design. And I won't bore people with what that means. It's sort of one of the- [S2] Good study, solid study. [S1] Yeah, it's one of the sort of gold standard methods that we have when we're looking at intervention studies, such as drug studies. [S2] Yeah. [S1] Five of the seven found no benefit, uh, of Valerian route on sleep. Then two out of the seven, | 27.48 | 3.449706 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518041.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518042 | [S1] ... you'll just get one significant result by random chance. And even with random chance on their side, they, they still couldn't find a, a benefit of, of, of Valerian. So- [S2] So Valerian route might be worse than nothing at all if there is a, so to speak. [S1] I mean, again, placebo effect- [S2] Sure. | 18.28 | 3.207226 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518042.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518043 | [S1] Sure. And we'll include these. I mean, I always say, you know, we're not physicians. We don't prescribe anything. We're scientists and professors, so we profess things. It's up to people to be responsible for their own health, um, to, not just to protect us, but to protect themselves. Um, I, I do want to hear about tart cherry and- [S2] Yeah. [S1] ... and kiwifruit. Um, what, what's the story there? | 21.48 | 3.056 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518043.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518044 | [S1] ... strange, isn't it? I was, you know, I, I'm kind of a hard-nosed scientist. And when people, you know, some years ago started saying, "Oh, tart cherries, it's the thing," or "kiwi fruits," I was thinking, "Oh my goodness, this sounds a bit- [S2] You've been in California a little too long. [S1] ... sort of, yeah, I know, yeah, the sun has softened me, uh, some. But I thought, | 19 | 3.253936 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518044.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518045 | [S1] It reduced the amount of time that you spent awake at night by over an hour. And then the other two studies, one of them found that it increased the amount of sleep that you got by 34 minutes. The other, it increased the amount of sleep that you got by 84 minutes. [S2] Wow. [S1] Which, you know, these are, and what's striking is that they were independent, uh, studies. I th- I think meaning that they were from independent groups. And these were, you know, some of these | 28.92 | 3.443545 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518045.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518046 | [S1] Guys, you know, I, I, and girls, I know pretty well. [S2] You know and- [S1] And they're really- [S2] You know and trust their work. [S1] Right, I really trust their work too. [S2] Were they ingesting actual tart cherries or they're drinking the juice or- | 10.12 | 3.373292 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518046.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518047 | [S1] ... juice. So they, in all three studies, it was juice. Um, although you can, I think as a supplement, you can buy it in a capsule and we've got no idea whether that changes the benefit or not. What was also interesting in, I think it was that last study where they got an increase in sleep by 84 minutes, it also decreased daytime napping significantly. [S2] Oh, that's one that I could certainly make use of. [S1] So- [S2] I, I, I love my daytime naps, but I'd love to skip them too. | 25.84 | 3.156984 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518047.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518048 | [S1] ... a better night's sleep, so to speak. I don't measure, I confess, I don't measure my sleep. I'm not a sleep tracker guy. [S2] Hey, that's- [S1] Um, but, uh, you know, there are a few papers out there. They're not what we would call blue, published in blue ribbon journals, but- [S2] [LAUGHS] [S1] ... but they have control groups, and it looks somewhat interesting. And they're, when I say "apogenin," uh, people get somewhat intrigued. Ooh, this molecule, | 23.16 | 3.382739 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518048.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518049 | [S1] Chamomile has long been thought to be a sedative, a mild sedative, but a sedative. [S2] Yeah. [S1] Do you drink chamomile tea? Do you take apigenin? Uh, what are your thoughts on apigenin? [S2] Yeah, I, I don't. And I, I have looked into some of the data regarding sleep as well. Right now, from best I can tell, it, it's mostly subjective data rather than objective, hard sort of sleep measures. And that's why right now I, you know, it's sort of | 25.08 | 2.942896 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518049.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518050 | [S1] No, that's great. I think it's very, very scientific and organized in a way that allows, uh, you and, and would allow other people to make very, uh, informed decisions for themselves. Um, I like that. I, um, I like to think in terms of, of manipulating any aspect of our biology, that behavioral tools always are the first line of entry. [S2] Yeah. [S1] Then nutrition, everyone has to eat sooner or later, even if you're fasting. | 25.16 | 3.261122 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518050.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518051 | [S1] ... then perhaps supplementation, then prescription drugs, and then perhaps brain-machine interface, devices that you use to induce something. And those could be done in combination. But what concerns me is when I hear people, uh, say, "Well, what should I take?" Without thinking about their behavior, their light viewing behavior, et cetera. But of course these things work in combination. [S2] Yeah. [S1] Um- | 20.92 | 3.318078 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518051.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518052 | [S1] And I think the same is true when we think about supplementation. There are so many things that are easy to implement when it comes to sleep that don't require venturing out into those waters. And again, we're not here to tell anyone about whether they should venture or not. That's completely your choice. All I'm saying is that if you want to think about optimizing your sleep, there are a number of ways that you can do it that don't necessarily require you to swallow anything or inject anything or, you know, smoke anything or- [S2] Right. [S1] ... you know, free- - [S2] And for- | 29.96 | 3.466525 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518052.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518053 | [S1] Right. And for which the margins of safety are quite, quite wide. [S2] Right. [S1] That, that's the other one. [S2] Yes, sorry. Thank you. [S1] So, so speaking of low-hanging fruit, I don't know how low it hangs in reality, but what, what about kiwi? They're delicious, to me, anyway. | 12.16 | 3.085041 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518053.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518054 | [S1] ... to my knowledge, there's really only one published human study that's of any value. But what they did find was that it decreased the speed of time with which it took you to fall asleep. [S2] These are people ingesting the whole kiwi? [S1] So it's ingesting the whole kiwi. [S2] With the skin? [S1] Skin. [S2] I even, even people cringe when they see me do it, but- [S1] Well, I think- [S2] Oh, don't eat the skin? [S1] No, no, no. I think the idea is some of the good stuff, and I'll come on to this, may actually be in the skin itself. [S2] Oh, wonderful. Thank you. You just, you, I just want, you just help me win a bet. I'll give you your- [S1] Okay, okay. [S2] Yeah. | 29.16 | 3.37997 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518054.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518055 | hot cherries, kiwi fruit, and, you know, things like melatonin, 'cause I think there could be one common binding, uh, mechanism. What they found in the animal study is that they could block those kiwi fruit sleep benefits using a GABA blocking agent. [S1] Mm-hmm. Interesting. [S2] Now, GABA, um, GABA, which stands for gamma-aminobutyric acid, is one of the major inhibitory neurotransmitters of the brain. It's kind of like the red- [S1] So a naturally occurring sedative. [S2] Right. [S1] A sed- sort of. [S2] Yeah, it's- | 29.96 | 3.473505 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518055.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518056 | [S1] Right. [S2] Sort of. [S1] Yeah, it's the, kind of the red light on the traffic light signal, you know? Um, others are green light. Um, Gabber is red light. So by playing around with some sort of clever drugs, | 13.88 | 3.295085 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518056.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518057 | [S1] ... to manipulate the system, they could prevent the benefit of the kiwifruit by sort of buggering around with the GABA receptor, meaning that perhaps part of the kiwifruit benefit on sleep was mediated by the brain's natural inhibitory neurotransmitter system called the GABA system. [S2] That's exciting. [S1] And I thought that that was, that was kind of in, that convinced me a little bit more that maybe there's something here to read into. So to be determined, again, here is the banner. [S2] Mm-hmm. | 29.96 | 3.345873 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518057.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518058 | [S1] But it, you know, tart, cherries, and kiwifruits, the data surprised me. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] Because in part, I was so preoccupied with being, you know, I don't know, a bit pure-ish about it and a bit snobby, thinking, "Oh, come on, that, that's definitely not gonna work." Well, | 17.96 | 3.374369 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518058.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518059 | [S1] Compounds are far. [S2] I look forward to a day when supplements are no longer called supplements because at the end of the day, whether or not something has an effect, whether or not it's a whole kiwi fruit or a derivative of a kiwi fruit, will depend on the molecular compound. And as you mentioned, this, um, potential mechanism via the GABA system, um, that's, I, we both, as scientists, get excited about mechanism 'cause when you can- [S1] Yeah. [S2] ... trace a mechanism in a pathway, it provides a rationale, a grounding for why kiwi of all things or tart cherry of all things might help, um, increase | 29.96 | 3.253778 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518059.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518060 | [S1] ... total sleep time. Uh, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention or ask about tryptophan and serotonin. [S2] Yeah. [S1] I can anecdotally say, when I've taken tryptophan, the precursor to serotonin, or serotonin itself, I have a horrendous night's sleep. [S2] Yeah. [S1] I fall asleep very easily, and I experience ridiculously vivid dreams, | 25.64 | 3.443131 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518060.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518061 | [S1] ... neither pleasant nor unpleasant. It's kind of a mish-mash. And then I wake up and I experience several days of insomnia that, and I've done the, the positive control and the negative control and all the, the variations thereof, to confirm that at least for me, supplementing with serotonergic agents is a bad idea for me. [S2] Yeah. [S1] And, um, tryptophan is a common sleep supplement and sleep aid that, that's discussed. Um, | 28.32 | 3.437777 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518061.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518062 | [S1] It's a push pull again. You know, it's, you know, it's chest and back. It's, you know, whatever you want to think of. That's why I think if you're trying to increase, dramatically drive up your serotonin levels at night, and that's sustained throughout the night, when you're trying to get into REM sleep, you could be artificially fragmenting REM sleep. Now, I don't know the data. I don't think anyone's really got good data. [S2] No. I haven't been able to find it. [S1] But that's why I would be, you know, if you were to say, Matt, | 28.48 | 3.380893 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518062.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518063 | [S1] I love naps. I come from a long history of nappers. Uh, my dad always took a nap in the afternoon. I'd take a 20 or 30 minute nap, or I'd do a practice which I, um, took the liberty of coining NSDR, non-sleep deep rest, some sort of just passive laying- [S2] Genius. [S1] ... out there, feet up, elevated. Sometimes people do, or I'll do yoga, I'll do hypnosis or something of that sort. But 20 or 30 minutes of that has been very beneficial for me to get up from that nap or, | 29.64 | 3.315993 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518063.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518064 | [S1] ... nap, um, and I've just never been a habitual napper. [S2] Is that because you don't feel sleepy in the afternoon or because- [S1] I typically don't feel sleepy. [S2] Okay. So you're just hardier then. [S1] I am. I wouldn't say hardier. I may be, um, less capable of falling asleep. [S2] Okay. [S1] Um, my sleep drive- [S2] But you're not dragging through the afternoon. [S1] No. No. [S2] Okay. [S1] I don't drag through- [S2] So you don't nap because you don't feel a, a need to nap. | 24.52 | 3.292093 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518064.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518065 | [S1] You know, darling, please don't speak to me for the first hour after I've- [S2] Don't anything, don't anything right now. [S1] After the first hour of waking up, you know, I'm not, just, I'm just not the best version of myself. [S2] Right. So we wait for that time period and then we do some- | 13.04 | 3.218661 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518065.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518066 | [S1] ... uh, mission performance by 34%, and improved daytime alertness by 50%. [S2] Fantastic. [S1] And it birthed what was then called the NASA NAP culture, throughout all terrestrial NASA staff during that time period. So it's long been known that NAPs can have a benefit. NAPs, however, can have a double-edged sword. There is a dark side to NAPs. | 24 | 3.260961 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518066.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518067 | [S1] And you want to maintain your, you don't want to have that grogginess hangover that can happen after a full night of sleep for the first hour. Try to limit it to about 20, 25 minutes. And that way you don't go down into the very deepest stages of sleep, which I, if I wrench you out of with an alarm, then you just kind of feel, you almost feel worse for the first hour after the nap. [S2] I've definitely experienced that. [S1] Because it's there. | 24.48 | 3.420339 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518067.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518068 | [S1] I've definitely experienced that if I oversleep. Certainly if, uh, the sun goes down during my nap and I wake up and light, overall lighting conditions have changed, I find it very hard to jolt myself back into the evening and it, it can screw me up. [S2] Yeah. [S1] So I try and keep those naps pretty brief. And I should say, um, I, I'm very happy to hear you mention individual differences and why some people might want to nap and other people might not want to nap. Uh, | 26.52 | 3.196877 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518068.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518069 | [S1] I have a colleague, Lee Chin Lo, who'll be familiar to, to many neurobiologists, but- [S2] Yeah, of course. [S1] ... who's a absolutely spectacular scientist, um, member of the National Academy, Howard Hughes investigator, just a phenom, and, uh, has a ton of energy. But years ago, I learned that he always takes a nap in the afternoon, so much so that when he travels to give seminars at other universities, he will tell his post-lunch, um, it- | 24.24 | 3.22846 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518069.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518070 | [S1] I, I love that and I, it's an important point. Um, I also feel that one of the best ways to, um, beat your competition in any endeavor is to outlive them. [S2] [LAUGHS] [S1] Uh, so, uh, and th- now that we know that sleep can enhance, uh, longevity and lack of sleep can shorten one's life, um, that's all the justification I need anyway. Uh, can somebody sleep too much? Is it possible to get too much sleep- [S2] Uh-huh. | 25.36 | 3.061492 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518070.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518071 | [S1] And that fits very well with one of the profiles that we know of depression, which is anhedonia. You don't get pleasure from normally pleasurable things, so you just don't want to go out into the world. You don't want to interact because you're depressed, so what do you do? You just stay in bed. [S2] Blind, closed, watching TV, on the phone. [S1] Right. And that just looks as though, you know, when- | 18.32 | 3.324665 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518071.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518072 | [S1] I actually think there could be a thing as too much sleep. Physiologically, I think it's possible. But the reason I think that is because it's no different than food, water, or oxygen. Can you overeat? Yes, you can. Can you under-eat? Of course. [S2] Or light. Light in the early part of the day. [S1] Oh. [S2] Throughout the day, wonderful. Light late in the day. [S1] Right. [S2] At night, detrimental. | 21.64 | 3.47356 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518072.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518073 | [S1] Blood electrolytes went, you know, all over the place and they were having cardiac arrests or stroke. [S2] Yeah, people were dying. [S1] And they were dying because of excessive hydration. Can you get too much oxygen, hyper-oxemia, and it can cause free radical damage, which can be profoundly harmful and kill brain cells. | 17.88 | 3.458168 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518073.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518074 | [S1] Oh, that's a very thorough and very nuanced and, yeah, very clear answer. So I, I, um, it's so interesting to think that a lot of the, the, the data that are out there that, talking about being in bed too long, that it's just trying to compensate for the actual fragmentation of sleep. So the, the- [S2] Right. [S1] ... What I'm coming away with is that there are many paths to this, and, uh, both positive and things to avoid, but the idea is to get, | 24.6 | 3.411572 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518074.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518075 | [S1] And sex, orgasm, and masturbation, topics that are, you know, are somewhat, um, sensitive, um, but, uh, from the perspective of biology, right? [S2] Yeah. [S1] Uh, none of us would be here were it not for, uh, sperm meets egg in some fashion, either in a dish or, or in vivo. Um, but... [S2] What... | 20.56 | 3.316813 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518075.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518076 | [S1] What are the data, as, as you know them to be, or maybe your lab is even doing this kind of, um, uh, work and exploration about the role that sex, orgasm, masturbation play in getting to sleep and staying to, asleep and sleep quality. Certainly those behaviors and those, uh, physiological events have been part of our evolutionary history. [S2] Right. [S1] Um, uh, what's the story there? Uh, what can we say about this in, in terms of, um, science and, and, uh, dare I say, practice? | 29.8 | 3.238429 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518076.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518077 | [S1] Yeah, I mean, it's almost that caricature of, you know, in the movies where, you know, a couple makes love and then all of a sudden you just sort of hear snoring or, you know, and it happens with the idea that it's somewhat somnogenic, that it's sleep-promoting. [S2] Well, the post-orgasmic increase in prolactin- [S1] Well, that's very- [S2] Is- is- is- [S1] Is interesting. [S2] ... thought to be a, a sed- a naturally-occurring sedative- [S1] Yeah. [S2] ... that presumably has a function in, | 26.4 | 3.426695 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518077.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518078 | [S1] Coming back to sex, the data is actually quite compelling, that both either subjectively assessed sleep quality or objective amount of sleep. Sex that has resulted in orgasm, and I think it's th- that latter part that typically needs to happen. [S2] I would imagine so. [S1] Um, that, you know, so between two mutually exclusive, uh, individuals, um, where both are | 28.24 | 3.327671 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518078.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518079 | [S1] You know, beneficial in terms of receiving an orgasm. [S2] Yeah, I would say any discussion about sex, we were referring to consensual, age-appropriate, species-appropriate, context-appropriate. [S1] Wow, I would never have even gone to the species-appropriate. [S2] I put species in there because it's the internet and people will come up with all sorts of ideas. So I, I think that age-appropriate, I think age-appropriate, consensual, context-appropriate, and species-appropriate covers all the bases. But if I missed any, put them in the comment section and we'll be sure to take note. | 28.76 | 3.382606 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518079.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518080 | [S1] Everyone is here because a sperm met an egg, either in a dish or in vivo, as we said before. And, um, at least in 2021, there's, there's no way around that fact. [S2] Yeah. [S1] Um, and what preceded that is typically this act we call sex. And sometimes, hopefully, uh, I like to think, uh, orgasm is associated with that sexual activity. Masturbation is one dimension of that, is something that I think it can and should be discussed if, in fact, there are data that relate it to sleep. | 28.6 | 3.196432 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518080.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518081 | [S1] What we certainly know now, and I, I am not someone to take any advice on when it comes to anything relationship wise or sex wise. [S2] That's a different episode of the podcast. [S1] Yeah, yeah, yeah, certainly. And that's not a podcast series that, uh, I'm going to be releasing anytime soon. It's going to be mostly about, uh, sleep. Although I will touch on, uh, I'll release a podcast on sleep and sex. But, | 19.6 | 3.022068 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518081.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518082 | [S1] How you eat can affect how you sleep. How you sleep can affect how you eat. Same with exercise. And it turns out it's the same way with sexual behavior too. So here we're talking about whether sex can help with sleep. Can sleep help with your relationship and sex? And the answer is yes, it can. Firstly, we know, and we've spoken a little bit about this, that the reproductive hormones are under profound sleep regulation. [S2] Both estrogen and testosterone, as I understand. [S1] Estrogen, t- | 29 | 3.402174 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518082.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518083 | [S1] ... 'cause we hear so often about- [S2] F- F- F- F- H- [S1] ... testosterone. [S2] ... as well. [S1] But women who, or I should say, anyone who's interested in having higher levels of estrogen or, or normal healthy levels of estrogen, um, I presume the data show for estrogen what the data also show- [S2] Yep. [S1] ... similarly for testosterone- [S2] The testosterone. [S1] ... which is if you get too little or poor quality of sleep, the, both sex steroid hormones, as they're referred to, testosterone- [S2] Correct. [S1] ... and estrogen, which are present in both males and females, and every variation thereof, are going to be diminished below normal healthy levels. Correct? [S2] Yep. Estrogen- | 29.88 | 3.207629 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518083.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518084 | [S1] Yeah. [S2] Correct. [S1] Estrogen, testosterone, um, FSH in women, uh, a key hormone in the regulation, um, for, um, key for conception, of course. All of these sex hormones seem to become significantly disrupted when sleep becomes of short quantity or poor quality. We also know that in women, uh, sleep disruption can usually lead to menstrual cycle disruption. | 27.88 | 3.419335 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518084.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518085 | [S1] ... in your relationship. And they did this in a number of different elegant ways. [S2] And vice versa. [S1] And vice versa as well. [S2] I mean, not that I've ever had conflict in relationships, but- [S1] Uh, me, like, you know, I just, this is just day-drive, right? I've never experienced that at all. Um, | 13.48 | 2.989445 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518085.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518086 | [S1] There is this question about orgasm or no orgasm, ejaculation, no ejaculation. [S2] Yeah. [S1] And, and indeed, there do seem to be some effects of, of, um, of restricting ejaculation in males as a form of further increasing testosterone. So sex without ejaculation, further increasing testosterone. But the data are not clean. [S2] Okay. [S1] Um, presumably because organizing these sorts of studies and getting truth in, in self-reporting is probably hard to get from, from subjects. But, um, but it, | 29.24 | 3.312361 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518086.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518087 | [S1] ... that they have profound effects on our core biology. I mean, it's fascinating to me that the areas of the hypothalamus, the pre-optic area, the super-optic areas, those areas which the names might not mean anything to anybody besides, uh, Matt and I sitting here, but those areas sit cheek to jowl with each other in the hypothalamus and control sleep and sex. [S2] Yeah. [S1] The trigger of orgasm, the, | 25 | 3.373117 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518087.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518088 | appetite for food, the appetite for water, for electrolytes. I mean, the hypothalamus is kind of a, um, a festival of, of neurons with different booths for different, um, primitive behaviors. [S1] It's such a small, small structure in the brain, but it's the orchestrator of a vast number of our behaviors, disproportionate in terms of its size versus effect. [S2] Yeah, I don't think you can go to this hypothalamic festival without, uh, at least seeing all the booths, whether or not you decide to visit them or not. [S1] Oh, I love that. Um, master analogy. [S2] [Laughs] | 29.72 | 3.40851 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518088.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518089 | [S1] So, um, so I, I'm, so I'm glad that we've broached that conversation and I hope people will, um, will think that we've approached it with the appropriate level of sensitivity. It's, it's an important one that we're going to hear more about one way or the other. People are certainly thinking about this, if not, um, engaging in, in these sorts of behaviors or avoiding them. Um, so the more we can understand about the biology, the better. [S2] I'll say. [S1] Um, | 22.48 | 3.355089 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518089.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518092 | [S1] Find out whatever works for you. And it could be light stretching. I usually meditate, um, for about 10 or 15 minutes, uh, before bed. Some people like reading. Try not to watch television in bed. That's usually advised against. [S2] Something that doesn't emit too much light to your eyes. [S1] Too much light, too activating. You know, you can listen to a relaxing podcast, although we can speak about technology in the bedroom too. But have some kind of a wind down routine. It, | 26.84 | 3.457444 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518092.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518093 | [S1] Because if I shut the computer down and all of those tabs are still open, I'm going to come back in the morning and the computer's red hot, the fan's going, because it didn't go to sleep. Because it couldn't, because there were too many tabs active and open. I think it's the same way with sleep as well. So try to think about doing that. So just vomit out all of your concerns on the page. [S2] I like that. [S1] You know, emotional- [S2] 'Cause my three | 20.28 | 3.377482 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518093.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518094 | [S1] I like that. [S2] Yeah, emotional- [S1] 'Cause my 3 a.m. waking is often associated with me writing down the list of things that I forgot to do that I need to do. [S2] Yeah. [S1] And in, in once I eventually wake up from a, the later night, uh, second half of the night's sleep, that stuff seems much more tractable and reasonable, but, uh, it sure would be great to get that stuff out of the way before sleep. [S2] Well, there's also something that I don't think people have spoken about a lot, and I'd like to research it, which is | 25.44 | 3.151546 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518094.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518095 | [S1] But then the, the data started coming out, really good studies from good people, and they found that keeping one of those journals decreased the time it takes you to fall asleep by 50%, five-zero. [S2] Amazing. [S1] You know, it's well on par with any pharmaceutical agent. [S2] Oh. | 14.44 | 3.330059 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518095.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518096 | [S1] Oh, absolutely. [S2] Yeah. [S1] I, I'm convinced that, well, I've long thought that the worries and concerns and ideas I have at 3, 4 a.m., I've learned to not place any stock in them. [S2] Yeah. [S1] Because ever, something, I, I'm glad that you might, um, decide to eventually look at this, uh, in your laboratory because I feel like something is melted away or altered. I, I suspect it's in the, uh, | 23.08 | 3.266966 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518096.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518097 | [S1] ... the regulation of the autonomic nervous system, that it makes sense why a concern at 3, 4 a.m. ought to evoke more of a panic sense than a concern sense. [S2] Yeah. [S1] And certainly that's my experience, although not, I'm fortunate to not suffer from full blown panic attacks, but everything seems worse at 3, 4 a.m. [S2] Yeah. [S1] ... provided you're awake. | 18.84 | 3.207587 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518097.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518098 | [S1] Those are terrific sleep tips and, um, several of which, if not all of which, I'm going to incorporate. Um, Matt, this has been an amazing, uh, deep dive on sleep and its positive and negative regulators. [S2] I hope it hasn't been too long and I, I don't- [S1] No, this has been great. [S2] Please cut it down, shorten it to, uh, you know, the five minutes of meaningful stuff- [S1] Absolutely not. [S2] ... that I offer. [S1] Absolutely not. | 20.8 | 3.242288 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518098.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518099 | [S1] ... the five minutes of meaningful stuff that I offer. [S2] Absolutely not. Absolutely not. It is chock-a-block full of valuable takeaways. It's been a, a tremendously fun for me to, uh, dissect out this incredible aspect of our lives that, that we call sleep with a fellow scientist and a, a fellow public educator. I want to say, um, several things. First of all, um, we should say where people can find you, although I, it shouldn't be that difficult these days. [S1] [LAUGHS] [S2] You're, you're a very present on the, on the Internet. [S1] Unfortunately. | 29.6 | 3.272239 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518099.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518100 | [S1] ... that certain answers exist, that we don't have all the answers, but that there is a better path, there are better ways, and people can benefit in a myriad of ways. So, um, for that, because I know that, to be very genuine in you, um, you want the best for people, and you're offering tremendous advice and, and, um, considerations, and people can take it or leave it. I, that's the way I view it. I also want to thank you for taking the time out of your day to, uh, to sit with me here- [S2] Not at all. [S1] ... and have this discussion. [S2] Not at | 26.64 | 3.151539 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518100.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518101 | [S1] Uh, I am on, um, Twitter. I typically tweet, um- [S2] As the sleep diplomat. [S1] So it's, it's, no, it's just sleep diplomats. [S2] Sleep diplomat. [S1] Sleep diplomat. [S2] On Twitter. | 10.6 | 3.376224 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518101.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518102 | [S1] ... Diplomat at Twitter. [S2] ... Sleep Diplomat on Twitter, sleepdiplomat.com website. Uh, if you want to learn more about the science that we do here, it's humansleepscience.com. It's the Center for Human Sleep Science. Um, you can, uh, pick up a copy of the book if you want. It's called Why We Sleep. If you're curious about sleep, uh, that's one path to take, and it's, it's my few. [S1] Is there another book someday in the, in the future? | 28 | 3.365545 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518102.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518103 | [S1] Uh, I think there may be. [S2] Uh-huh. [S1] Yeah. [S2] Right. Right. [S1] I, I think there are- [S2] Many, many millions of people will be very happy to hear that. [S1] I think it's, it's starting to- [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] ... to take hold. And then, um, as we discussed, I am, uh, | 13.12 | 3.405193 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518103.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518104 | [S1] All right, well, now, now we're batting back and forth, the, the, the, uh, vector of action, so to speak. But, um, I do hope you'll start a podcast, however brief or lengthy these episodes, uh, turn out to be, because I do believe that's a great venue to get information out into the world. [S2] Okay. [S1] And, um, we don't just, uh, want to hear more from Matt Walker. I speak for many people. Um, we need to. The work you're doing is both, um, influential, but more importantly, it is important work. It, it has the impact that, | 29.8 | 3.352978 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518104.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518105 | [S1] ... needed, especially in this day and age where science and medicine, public health, and the, the issues of the world, et cetera, are really converging. So, I know I speak on behalf of a tremendous number of people, and I just say, thank you for doing the work you do and for being you. [S2] Thank you. [S1] And thanks for being a, a good friend. | 17.76 | 3.102405 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p32_m4-dialogue_0518105.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309157 | [S1] Mm-hmm. So, um, if somebody's disposition is one of, um, constant excitement and anticipation or easily excited, uh, you, these are the, I think about the kind of people where you say, "Hey, do you want to check out this new place for tacos?" And they're like, "Yeah, that'd be great." And other people are, um, a little more cynical, harder to budge- [S2] [laughs] [S1] ... like my bulldog Costello. [S2] [laughs] [S1] Um, very, very stable, low levels of dopamine with big inflections in his case. Um, | 26.24 | 3.512056 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309157.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309158 | [S1] are people who are more vulnerable to addiction. [S2] Interesting. Could I, uh, in terms of impulsivity, is this something that relates literally to, um, the startle reflex? Like I, for instance, as a, uh, lab director, I'm familiar with walking around my lab and, um, when I decide, deciding I'm going to talk to my people, of course, when they knock on my door, it's always like, "Wait, why am I being bothered right now?" [S1] [laughs] [S2] Even though I love to talk to them. But I walk around my lab from time to time and some people I notice I'll say, um, | 26.2 | 3.424288 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309158.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309159 | [S1] Do you have a moment? And they'll slowly turn around and say, "Yeah," or, "No," in some cases. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] Um, and other people will jump the moment I say their name. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] They actually have a, a kind of a heightened, um, startle reflex. [S2] Right. [S1] Is that related to impulsivity or is what you're referring to, um, an attempt to, uh, withhold behavior that's very deliberate, uh, under very deliberate conditions? | 23.08 | 3.288639 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309159.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309160 | [S1] Yeah, and it's, I, I'm beginning to realize that it's a fine line between spontaneity and impulsivity. [S2] Yeah. [S1] Uh, | 6.12 | 3.411252 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309160.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309161 | [S1] I definitely want to get into the precise and general description of addiction and what that is. But in a previous conversation we had, you said something that really rung in my mind, which is that many people who become addicted to things, let's call them addicts, [S2] [LAUGHS] [S1] ... have this feeling that normal life, | 18.56 | 3.52606 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309161.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309162 | [S1] isn't interesting enough, that they are seeking a super normal experience, and that the day-to-day routine, um, balance, which is actually in the title of your book, uh, Dopamine Nation, Finding Balance in the Age of Indulgence, that the word balance itself can sometimes be a bit of a, a, an aversive term for people. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] And, um, | 22.68 | 3.41737 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309162.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309163 | [S1] Um, I think people aren't entirely aware that, that the world is a hard place and that, and that life is hard and that, you know, like we're all kind of making it up. Do you know what I mean? [S2] Yeah. [S1] [LAUGHS] | 13.6 | 3.419684 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309163.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309164 | [S1] figure out what one's passion is by thinking, but rather go out and acquire skills. [S2] Right. [S1] And get, develop a sense of, of passion for something by your experience of hard work and, and getting better and feedback. [S2] Right. [S1] A little bit of the growth mindset thing of our colleague Carol Dweck. But he's gone on to write books, um, Deep Work and, which is all about removing yourself from technology and doing deep work. [S2] Yes, right. [S1] And he's been a big proponent of the evils of context switching too often throughout the day. [S2] Yeah. | 28.64 | 3.233072 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309164.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309165 | [S1] ... for sake of productivity, mostly. His new book is called, um, A World Without Email. [S2] Uh-huh. [S1] I'm beginning to realize this. I cite off these books and your book, Dopamine Nation, uh, Finding Balance, uh, in the Age of Indulgence, that, uh, maybe the reason why you two don't know about one another is because neither of you are on social media. [S2] That's it. That's it. [S1] Right. And yet you're two of the most productive people that I know, um, including productive authors. So that's a discussion unto itself. But I find this fascinating. So, um, | 26.64 | 3.252396 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309165.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309166 | [S1] Let's talk about the pleasure-pain balance and addiction. And I've heard you use this, uh, seesaw or balance scale- [S2] Right. [S1] ... um, uh, analogy before. And I think it's a wonderful one, uh, that really, for me, clarified what addiction is, at least at the mechanistic level. | 18.96 | 3.515269 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309166.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309167 | [S1] Right. [S2] Yeah, and I, I just want to, um, interject there. So this moment of, of wanting to watch another that is associated with pain, I think, is, are we always aware of that happening? Because you just described it in a very conscious way. [S1] Right. [S2] But when I, um, indulge in something I enjoy, I'm usually thinking about just wanting more of that thing. [S1] Yes. Yes. [S2] I don't think about the pain, I just think about more. [S1] Yes. | 26.72 | 3.300949 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309167.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309168 | [S1] Right. [S2] Right. [S1] So really excellent point because we're mostly not aware of it and it's also reflexive. So we, it's not something that consciously happens or that we're aware of unless we really begin to pay attention. And, and when we begin to pay attention, we really can become very aware of it in the moment. Again, it's like a falling away, like that, you know, you're on social media and, you know, you get a good tweet of something and then | 28.52 | 3.284855 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309168.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309169 | [S1] Yeah, so if I understand this correctly, uh, when we find something, or when something finds us- [S2] [LAUGHS] [S1] ... that we enjoy, that feels pleasureful, uh, social media, food- [S2] Right. [S1] ... sex, gambling, whatever happens to be in, we will explore the full range of these. There's a, some dopamine release when we engage in that behavior. [S2] Right. Mm-hmm. [S1] And then what you're telling me is that very quickly- [S2] Yes. | 24.4 | 3.32623 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309169.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309170 | [S1] And beneath my conscious awareness, there's a tilting back of this scale where pleasure is reduced by way of increasing pain. [S2] Right. [S1] And I've heard you say before that the pain mechanism has some competitive advantages over the pleasure mechanism, such that it doesn't just bring the scale back to level. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] It actually brings pain higher- [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] ... than pleasure. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] Could you tell us a little bit more about that? [S2] Yeah. | 29.52 | 3.383518 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309170.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309171 | [S1] Yeah, yeah. So, uh, so what happens, again, so the, the, the hallmark of any addictive substance or behavior is that it releases a lot of dopamine in our brain's reward pathway. Like, right? Like broccoli just doesn't release a lot of dopamine. Just doesn't, right? [S2] I'm trying to imagine. I was about to say maybe they're, and I, I stopped myself because, no, bro- broccoli's good. It can be really good, but bro- [S1] Right. [S2] ... broccoli is never amazing. [S1] Right. | 25.12 | 3.062856 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309171.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309173 | [S1] And that one drug could be a person, right? I mean, I- [S2] Yes. [S1] I know people in my life that are still talking about this one relationship, this one person that was just so great despite all the challenges of that thing, that it's almost like they're addicted to the narrative. [S2] Yeah. [S1] Uh, they were, maybe, or still are addicted to the person. [S2] Right. [S1] So it, it could be to any number of things, video game, sex, gambling, a person, a narrative. [S2] Right. | 26.12 | 3.497773 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309173.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309174 | [S1] Yes, exactly. [S2] Okay. [S1] And that's where this whole idea of cross addiction comes in. So once you've been addicted to a substance, severely addicted, that makes you more vulnerable to addiction to any substance. [S2] And when you say substance, does the same, is what you just said also true for behaviors? [S1] Yes. So, so when I, when I use the word drug, I, I'm talking about substances and behaviors, really. [S2] Okay. [S1] And be, I'm talking about behaviors like gambling, sex, um, you know- [S2] Porn. [S1] ... gaming, porn, absolutely. Shopping. [S2] Work. [S1] Work. | 29.52 | 3.266912 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309174.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309178 | sensitive to things going on in the environment, which can experience pleasure and approach, which can experience pain and recoil, right? This is all adaptive and healthy and necessary and good. We would never want a balance that doesn't tilt. [S1] Right. [S2] That would be a disaster. [S1] Right. [S2] We wouldn't be human. Um, and we wouldn't want that. It'd be really, really boring. On the other hand, what people in recovery from addiction talk about is, to some extent, having to learn to live with | 27.64 | 3.349605 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309178.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309179 | [S1] Sorry to interrupt, but when you say boring, um, can we add stressful and boring? [S2] Yes. [S1] Because there are days where I'm not exp- I have to, I'm more in these, I have to remind myself to have fun because I sort of forgot what the term means. [S2] Yeah, right. [S1] Because I've, I like to think that I experience a lot of pleasure in little things, but I, I'm a pretty hard-driving guy. I like goals and big milestones and all that stuff. [S2] Right. [S1] Anyway, um, | 23.08 | 3.498888 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309179.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309180 | [S1] The point being that many days I'm not bored thinking, "Oh, there's nothing to do," but I am kind of overwhelmed by the number of things that are really not pleasureful that I have to do. [S2] Right. [S1] I won't mention what they are, but I don't want my, I don't want my colleagues to be like, "So that's why you don't respond to emails." Um, no, just your emails. [S2] [LAUGHS] [S1] Um, not yours, Anna, but they're- | 23.72 | 3.321735 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309180.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309181 | [S1] But it is scary because when you allow yourself to be bored, um, let's say you were, had that list of all the things you hate to do, but you actually got them all done. Imagine that. And you got your forthcoming book done. [S2] Ha. [S1] And you did all your interviews. [S2] [LAUGHS] No. [S1] And, and then- [S2] It could happen. Lightning could strike. [S1] Right. | 17.08 | 3.451307 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309181.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309182 | [S1] So I think that, uh, one of the big problems now that's very misguided about this idea of finding your passion, it's almost as if people are looking to fit the key into the lock of the thing that was meant for them to do. [S2] Right. And then everything will feel like a natural progression. [S1] Right. And then everything will be wonderful and, uh- [S2] Yeah. I can attest to the fact that is not how it works in any endeavor. [S1] Right. And that you'll have- | 21.32 | 3.36131 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309182.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309183 | [S1] ... that you're referring to, this immediacy of things calling to us, like taking out the trash, which sounds, frankly, really boring. [S2] [LAUGHS] [S1] Um, to be honest, I- [S2] Yeah. [S1] ... I hate taking out the trash, but I do it. [S2] [LAUGHS] [S1] 'Cause I like a clean home and I like a home that- [S2] Yeah, right. [S1] ... a home that smells good. [S2] Yeah. [S1] Um, or at least doesn't smell bad. [S2] [LAUGHS] [S1] Uh, so we do these things and, um, not that we wanna offer some larger carrot as a consequence of doing those things, but if I understand correctly, what you're saying is in- | 27.88 | 2.960971 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309183.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309184 | [S1] All of the guys I know who are in the SEAL teams have this sense of duty about immediate things. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] Um, and not just holding the door and doing the, helping with the dishes and moving things around. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] They are constantly scanning their environment for what can be done. [S2] Ah. [S1] They essentially conquer every environment they're in. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] They are also some of the, the most competitive human beings. [S2] [LAUGHS] [S1] But they do it in the world. And they do it unless they're, they're in the active war fighting, which is their, their real job. Uh, | 27.36 | 2.852943 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309184.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309185 | [S1] They do it in every environment in a very benevolent way. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] And it's a remarkable thing because it, I think it's what, it's part of what they're selected for. [S2] Mm-hmm. [S1] And, um, and, you know, there, there's a range there, but I think when we hear about tending to the immediate things- [S2] Right. [S1] ... uh, or this phrase, uh, you know, how you do one thing is how you do anything, that's a tr- a tricky one for me because there are certain things I just don't do well. [S2] [LAUGHS] [S1] Um, but, but should we always be trying? I, I think that the, | 26.32 | 3.234984 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309185.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309186 | [S1] ... tending to, setting the horizon in closely, um, and tending to things in one's immediate environment, I think it is very powerful and translates. [S2] Yes. [S1] Because again, I think the nervous system, it performs algorithms. It has action steps. [S2] Yeah. [S1] The brain doesn't evolve to do one thing. [S2] Right. [S1] It evolves to be able to use the same approach to doing lots of different things. [S2] Yeah. | 20.36 | 3.396961 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309186.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309187 | [S1] Well, I think the unit of the day is something that comes up again and again of, in my discussions with colleagues who are extremely, uh, successful and who also have balanced lives. [S2] Right. [S1] Uh, this actually came up in the discussion with Karl Deisseroth, who is also, it's a successful scientist and clinician and, and, you know, manages a family, et cetera. So the unit of the day, I think, is fundamental and those stack up, as you mentioned. So, | 26.64 | 3.559201 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309187.mp3 | [
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bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309188 | [S1] Along those lines, I've heard you say that in order to reset the dopamine system, essentially in order to break an addictive pattern, to become unaddicted, 30 days of zero interaction with that substance, that person, et cetera. [S2] Right. [S1] Is that correct? [S2] Yeah. | 20.12 | 3.394467 | 24,000 | audio/en/bilibili_data_75123309_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_BV1nL4y1N7TN_p34_m4-dialogue_0309188.mp3 | [
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