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All things Perl_transcript.txt

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+[0.00 --> 14.24]  welcome back everyone this is the change log and i'm your host adam stekowiak this is
+[14.24 --> 21.74]  episode 133 today jared and i talked to curtis poe about all things pearl a great conversation
+[21.74 --> 27.26]  you're gonna love it this show is sponsored by code ship rack space and status page.io
+[27.26 --> 32.58]  we'll tell you a bit more about rack space and status page.io later in the show but our friends
+[32.58 --> 38.46]  at code ship are all about continuous integration and delivery as a service you can release more
+[38.46 --> 44.34]  frequently get faster feedback and build the product your users need a simple push to a repo
+[44.34 --> 49.84]  runs your automated tests and configure deployments from the simple deployments are roku to complex
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+[55.34 --> 60.54]  with github or bitbucket you can get started today with their free plan setup takes just three minutes
+[60.54 --> 67.06]  make sure you use the code the changelog podcast to get a 20 discount for three months on any plane you
+[67.06 --> 73.68]  choose head to code ship.io slash the changelog and tell them the changelog sent you and now on to the
+[73.68 --> 87.38]  show everybody we're back and today we're joined by curtis ovid uh ovid poe actually he's got a cool
+[87.38 --> 92.00]  middle name there's not a real middle name maybe at some point curtis you can mention how you got that
+[92.00 --> 98.58]  name it's your internet handle right yes it is i'm here jared's here we're all here with curtis and
+[98.58 --> 105.34]  we're going to talk about pearl so we're excited what's uh what's ovid ovid um a long time ago when
+[105.34 --> 111.06]  i switched from mainframe development and getting into pearl uh i decided to sign up for the website
+[111.06 --> 117.30]  called pearl monks and i happen to tremendously enjoy poetry and when i had to pick a username
+[117.30 --> 122.90]  my two top favorite poets were uh an 18th 19th century scottish poet named john davidson
+[122.90 --> 129.82]  or the roman poet ovid and john davidson sounded like a very stupid username so i picked the username
+[129.82 --> 136.86]  ovid and it just stuck with me for the years i like ovid i wish i had that name and i could be i
+[136.86 --> 141.28]  could be a ba with with ovid oh his poetry is phenomenal highly recommended particularly
+[141.28 --> 148.16]  translations by peter green so uh that's that's obviously language dependent there but um let's
+[148.16 --> 155.90]  give a shout out to to uh robert norris uh he's rob n r-o-b-n on github he actually suggested this
+[155.90 --> 160.22]  show via our ping repo so if you don't know it and you're a listener out there we have a weekly email
+[160.22 --> 166.80]  we ship we have a featured section in there for pings we get on the ping repo drop an issue in there
+[166.80 --> 172.58]  just like robert norris did or rob n on github did uh to suggest us to talk to curtis and talk about
+[172.58 --> 178.14]  pearl and kind of bring we've never actually had a pearl specific show on this uh on the podcast
+[178.14 --> 183.90]  so we're excited about that but uh every week we feature how many repos we feature jared on in
+[183.90 --> 191.30]  weekly uh three three okay so we feature three repos in our weekly email via ping so if you've got
+[191.30 --> 195.76]  some awesome repos out there you need some extra traction on drop them in there they might show up
+[195.76 --> 199.82]  on the podcast they might show up in the email they might show up on the blog you just never know
+[199.82 --> 204.90]  we might even tweet it out so uh with that said let's let's drop into to this conversation with
+[204.90 --> 211.06]  curtis curtis you know jared jared and i you know jared back in college you did some pearl work
+[211.06 --> 217.32]  i own a few pearls um we probably have a pretty diverse listenership to this uh to this podcast
+[217.32 --> 222.36]  that is going to be really adept to programming but maybe not that big of a fan to pearl so what
+[222.36 --> 229.38]  do you say to those people who are not huge fans of pearl um i actually don't say anything to them i'm i
+[229.38 --> 235.84]  understand that not everyone is going to be able to get into every language and pearl during the late
+[235.84 --> 243.38]  1990s early 2000s was you know rightfully called the duct tape of the internet and as the market has
+[243.38 --> 250.02]  grown and there was such a low barrier to entry we have a lot of competitors come in and for any
+[250.02 --> 255.68]  healthy market of course it's going to shrink our market share and so for a lot of people who didn't
+[255.68 --> 261.04]  care for the pearl syntax um they were happy to turn away from it so it's kind of sad because it's
+[261.04 --> 265.60]  a fabulous language and we shouldn't let the punctuation characters in there turn people away
+[265.60 --> 271.96]  from it but nonetheless you know people have their opinions and just as i understand that i also like
+[271.96 --> 277.36]  other diverse languages i i enjoy python i enjoy ruby i i like prologue i think it's fascinating
+[277.36 --> 282.76]  uh but i understand not everyone likes everything uh lisp i think is phenomenal language but
+[282.76 --> 287.96]  i don't care to program it just because i just find it so frustrating and ugly when i play around
+[287.96 --> 293.08]  with it no no offense to lisp programmers out there so i i don't really stress about it much i understand
+[293.08 --> 299.26]  that it's not everyone's cup of tea so you've been doing pearl a long time you've written a book on
+[299.26 --> 305.32]  pearl you have a consulting company that consults on pearl uh what is it about the language that you fell
+[305.32 --> 314.08]  in love with it was an accident um in i think it was 1999 i was a mainframe programmer and i was
+[314.08 --> 321.72]  working i was mostly doing cobalt development and one of cobalt's worst strengths is worst abilities is
+[321.72 --> 327.00]  dealing with freeform text and that's pretty much all the web is incidentally which is why cobalt even
+[327.00 --> 331.00]  though it's tried to it's never broken up the web and there was i was working on a program to
+[331.00 --> 338.60]  convert nt csv files into the mainframe fixed width format that cobalt is really comfortable with
+[338.60 --> 343.96]  and it was about 150 lines of code and there was a bug and someone didn't understand something called
+[343.96 --> 349.66]  the unstring function something we would call split in many modern languages which splits a string on a
+[349.66 --> 355.34]  character and i fixed it i got it down to i think like 80 lines of code and this unix sysadmin kept
+[355.34 --> 361.46]  telling me you got to check out pearl so i checked it out and i got this 80 line cobalt function down
+[361.46 --> 367.12]  to about 10 lines of pearl and that was with error checking and it was actually fairly readable and i
+[367.12 --> 371.96]  was thinking my goodness what the heck am i doing and when he eventually left to form his own company
+[371.96 --> 378.32]  he said come along i know you can do this and i haven't looked back though the ironic thing is i enjoy
+[378.32 --> 384.96]  a lot of other programming languages i program in c assembler variants of basic java ruby python
+[384.96 --> 392.18]  but i joined pearl right at the time of the dot-com collapse so i stuck around with pearl for so long
+[392.18 --> 397.98]  that after the economy rebounded i found myself in a situation where people would see so much pearl
+[397.98 --> 402.80]  on my cv either they didn't want to offer me a position or they would offer me a junior programmer
+[402.80 --> 408.54]  salary so i wound up sticking with pearl and i've been specializing in it for about 15 years now
+[408.54 --> 414.90]  it seems fitting that the the thing that brought you to pearl it seems to be its its best trait which
+[414.90 --> 420.56]  is and what it was designed for right isn't it all about text extraction and manipulation that's
+[420.56 --> 427.12]  initially what was going on larry wall uh the creator of pearl uh he originally released it in 1987
+[427.12 --> 434.70]  and he was trying to handle a lot of problems that said and awk and other tools were supposed to be
+[434.70 --> 440.28]  doing but he wanted to do it in one tool to make it very easy i believe for reporting for nasa as i
+[440.28 --> 447.02]  recall and then he eventually released pearl uh open source to the community pearl 1 in 87 and it just
+[447.02 --> 454.30]  took off from there it was just so phenomenally easy to hack and pearl i mean today i often find myself
+[454.30 --> 458.14]  writing quick bash scripts and as soon as they start to get complicated i say okay forget about
+[458.14 --> 463.86]  this and i switch over to pearl because it makes things so easy but at the same time i also specialize
+[463.86 --> 470.72]  in extremely large scale uh websites you know database driven uh that use pearl almost exclusively
+[470.72 --> 476.26]  as the back end so it's everything from the really tall blue really small blue things that we have
+[476.26 --> 480.96]  to the very large scale websites some of the largest e-commerce platforms in the world are driven
+[480.96 --> 487.76]  with pearl and it's just amazing how easy it is to shift back and forth like in java i'm not going
+[487.76 --> 493.66]  to use java to hack out a small uh small utility for gluing things together it just wouldn't make any
+[493.66 --> 499.30]  sense at the same time uh tickle might be great for you know a lot of smaller tools but a lot of people
+[499.30 --> 505.22]  complain it doesn't scale as well though again no offense to the tickle community um so it's it just
+[505.22 --> 510.92]  really feels fills a sweet spot for me of being able to solve virtually all of what i tend to do
+[510.92 --> 518.58]  on a daily basis one of the uh the biggest pearl advocates and fans that i know on the podcast scene
+[518.58 --> 523.94]  is john saracusa who um writes pearl you know professionally to this day and loves the language
+[523.94 --> 528.74]  and one of the things that he says that's interesting and maybe you can tell me if this uh resonates with
+[528.74 --> 535.82]  you is that pearl is really kind of a formalization of the unix way and kind of uh taking those ideas
+[535.82 --> 541.00]  of those small tools and those command line tools and wrapping them in kind of a nicer uh language
+[541.00 --> 546.62]  is that does that resonate with you or yes it does and i'm actually going to go back to cobalt for just
+[546.62 --> 550.84]  a moment if you don't mind there's a reason for that so one of the things fascinating about cobalt
+[550.84 --> 557.22]  what made cobalt so powerful and why it stuck along stuck around for so long is because cobalt's not very
+[557.22 --> 561.80]  good it's not very powerful it's hard to write big systems in cobalt so what you do is you write
+[561.80 --> 566.26]  a small cobalt utility which maybe reads some records from an isam database and stores them
+[566.26 --> 572.40]  in the file but you have jcl job controlling which kind of it's tough to describe it doesn't really
+[572.40 --> 576.72]  have a good analogy today but jcl would have different steps so you call a step which would
+[576.72 --> 581.62]  read that a cobalt program which read the data saved to a file you call another step which would sort
+[581.62 --> 586.76]  that file and then the next step might load another program which would read that file
+[586.76 --> 592.96]  add some more data in save it and then you call another one which would take that saved file
+[592.96 --> 598.64]  pass it on to another system basically it was a unix pipeline and that's part of what made cobalt
+[598.64 --> 603.88]  so incredibly powerful because it wasn't powerful so people built a lot of small decoupled tools
+[603.88 --> 610.66]  and kind of piped them together with jcl so that worked out very well for me when i was transitioning
+[610.66 --> 616.24]  into pearl initially and getting used to the unix model because it was used to the way my mind
+[616.24 --> 623.36]  already worked build small tools pipe them together so that's part of the reason why yes i write a lot
+[623.36 --> 628.72]  of bash i write a lot of small bash utilities to get stuff done but anytime it starts to become
+[628.72 --> 634.10]  painful and bash and anyone who's done enough bash scripting knows what i mean i just switch to pearl
+[634.10 --> 639.80]  and i can do the same thing and it winds up being it's not quite as simple as bash but once you get
+[639.80 --> 644.06]  to the stuff that bash is you know a little bit weaker on or maybe my bash knowledge isn't as good
+[644.06 --> 649.88]  in pearl just makes it so easy to glue all these different tools together to shell out to some of
+[649.88 --> 655.60]  their program fetch its results uh you know fork off multiple processes run a whole bunch of stuff
+[655.60 --> 661.80]  aggregate them together and push it out there it's just it's lovely it's simple and you know from
+[661.80 --> 667.12]  scaling down to that small scale the really tiny things you do up to the big large scale systems
+[667.12 --> 673.66]  it's just it's always amazed me how seamlessly it tends to do that let's talk about some of those
+[673.66 --> 678.50]  the large scale systems you speak of um do you know any off the top of your head that are like
+[678.50 --> 682.24]  you know well-known sites that people may not realize are actually powered by pearl in the back
+[682.24 --> 686.08]  end uh depends upon what other people would think of as a well-known site so i live in europe
+[686.08 --> 694.18]  and one of the well-known sites over here is booking.com uh until the ipo of alibaba they were the third
+[694.18 --> 699.98]  largest e-commerce site in the world after amazon and ebay i mean they're huge they're not as well
+[699.98 --> 704.78]  known in the united states but basically they're an online hotel reservation system and they're massive
+[704.78 --> 710.44]  and yet almost the entire back end is written in pearl and i remember when i was working for them
+[710.44 --> 716.56]  one of my first days there i was walking by this guy and he was hacking on some java and i was surprised
+[716.56 --> 721.24]  and i said what are you doing java programming what do we do with java here and he said well we don't
+[721.24 --> 725.44]  we're taking all of our java programs and we're converting them to pearl just because it's easier
+[725.44 --> 731.58]  to work with which i found rather ironic because sometimes you hear about it going the other way
+[731.58 --> 735.24]  around people are converting pearl some of the language and here they're converting from some of
+[735.24 --> 739.82]  their language into pearl and it's something very common for them but they just found pearl so easy to
+[739.82 --> 747.18]  work with so that's possibly the biggest uh company i know of i work for the bbc also um world's largest
+[747.18 --> 753.98]  broadcaster they had 26 000 uh people when i was there and i was working on the central metadata
+[753.98 --> 759.50]  repository which basically that was information about you know what their schedules were what
+[759.50 --> 765.34]  programs were on telly and i found it rather ironic that me an american who didn't watch tv was telling
+[765.34 --> 771.10]  the british people what tv they were going to watch and all of that was managed through their pip system
+[771.10 --> 779.46]  all written entirely in pearl and just many many companies like that crowd tilt now known as tilt.com
+[779.46 --> 786.26]  which is a popular crowdsourcing system is written entirely in pearl there's actually an mmorpg called
+[786.26 --> 792.74]  lacuna expanse which has been written in pearl lots of large-scale systems some are well-known some are less
+[792.74 --> 798.98]  well so there's a lot of it out there um yes man it's been a long around a long time there's a lot of it
+[798.98 --> 803.92]  out there it has a lot of virtues what is it about it it seems like it's behind it seems like pearl's
+[803.92 --> 810.24]  behind the scenes is it just bad marketing or um is it just communities that you know don't necessarily
+[810.24 --> 817.08]  overlap uh you know we keep our our thumb on open source and you know we have to go out of our way to
+[817.08 --> 821.52]  find pearl open source even though it has been from the very beginning so is it what is it about pearl
+[821.52 --> 828.82]  the community is it just small or is this just not vocal um why it's not better known in the
+[828.82 --> 836.72]  greater open source community at one time it was obviously late 1990s early 2000 as i mentioned
+[836.72 --> 842.48]  pearl was known as the duct tape of the internet because it was virtually everything that you wanted
+[842.48 --> 846.72]  to know on the web you know if it wasn't written directly in pearl pearl was supporting behind the
+[846.72 --> 851.50]  scenes and that's still often surprisingly true today i work for a number of different companies
+[851.50 --> 856.04]  they call me in for all sorts of consulting things and i'm finding pearl all over the place but
+[856.04 --> 864.56]  i think part of what happened was uh back around uh around 2000 2001 there was kind of a malaise in
+[864.56 --> 870.22]  the pearl community um internally they were still trying to work out some differences um some folks
+[870.22 --> 875.50]  were frustrated and there was a famous incident when john orwatt threw a mug at the wall shattered it
+[875.50 --> 881.18]  and said we've got to do something different and then the pearl 6 project was born and there was a
+[881.18 --> 885.78]  misunderstanding from the beginning it was decided that pearl 6 would be the successor to pearl
+[885.78 --> 891.14]  but then it was quickly realized that it couldn't be the successor to pearl and said it would be a
+[891.14 --> 896.42]  sister language just as you have you know c sharp is a sister language to java c plus plus is kind of a
+[896.42 --> 904.10]  sister language to pearl pearl 6 is a sister language to pearl 5 and a lot of people simply see pearl 5 and
+[904.10 --> 910.10]  they don't realize that we have major releases um every year or so um new features powerful features
+[910.10 --> 916.14]  being introduced all the time but people just keep seeing pearl 6 and they're not aware that you know
+[916.14 --> 921.44]  development's still continuing on pearl 6 that pearl 5 is still tremendous progressing at a tremendous
+[921.44 --> 927.64]  pace and internally i actually was doing a lot of work with marketing with pearl and i discovered a
+[927.64 --> 932.76]  tremendous amount of hostility from the pearl community for marketing itself um they were just happy
+[932.76 --> 939.46]  to sit back and get stuff done and that kind of caused a problem so people outside think that
+[939.46 --> 945.06]  pearl 6 is a successor and therefore pearl 5 isn't going anywhere when that's absolutely not true we're
+[945.06 --> 951.38]  on pearl 520 right now pearl 522 um you know it's going to be out fairly soon new features being added
+[951.38 --> 958.90]  all the time um powerful features and it's a great language but we don't do a great job of talking about
+[958.90 --> 964.46]  outside of the community it sounds like some misinformation there sort of stouts you a little bit because
+[964.46 --> 970.42]  you want to you obviously want to progress but you don't want to stop the progression and and be like
+[970.42 --> 977.10]  that pearl 5 is not going anywhere can you talk a bit about beyond that the the health aspects i guess of
+[977.10 --> 984.34]  of of 5 versus 6 or where that's you know what some of the biggest issues are around this 5 versus 6 transition
+[984.34 --> 990.28]  well they're entirely separate languages that needs to be understood first of all as i mentioned
+[990.28 --> 996.62]  they're sister languages like c shark or java c plus plus two so it's a right turn to lisp yes um
+[996.62 --> 1002.72]  there is some work being done to make pearl 5 run inside of pearl 6 but it needs to be understood that
+[1002.72 --> 1008.02]  they're not the same language so because we haven't done a great job of communicating that outside and
+[1008.02 --> 1014.22]  because a lot of people just see that pearl 5 was released um that was actually back in 1994
+[1014.22 --> 1021.46]  that pearl 5 was released uh that was 20 years ago so people aren't aware that pearl 5 20 is not the
+[1021.46 --> 1031.16]  same language as pearl 5 pearl 5 code will generally run with a lot of warnings in 5 20 but 5 20 and the
+[1031.16 --> 1035.78]  supporting libraries that are available for it such as moose probably the most advanced object-oriented
+[1035.78 --> 1040.96]  system you're going to find in any dynamic language today and possibly more advanced than most static
+[1040.96 --> 1047.00]  languages i would say fan fabulous tool i i miss that when i program in anything else there are such
+[1047.00 --> 1052.12]  wonderful things available for pearl 5 but people outside the community aren't aware of that i would
+[1052.12 --> 1057.04]  like to see the pearl community we've done a great job over the past few years of internally getting our
+[1057.04 --> 1062.10]  act together healing you know pushing things forward after that malaise of people internally not
+[1062.10 --> 1068.24]  understanding the pearl 5 pearl 6 split um but it would be it would be great if we can communicate
+[1068.24 --> 1074.54]  that better outside because if people outside of pearl aren't aware of how powerful it is the powerful
+[1074.54 --> 1079.62]  web frameworks orms and other tools that we have uh you know we drive a lot of what's called the bio
+[1079.62 --> 1083.58]  pearl movement so there's a lot of biological work the research being done with pearl if people
+[1083.58 --> 1090.06]  outside aren't aware of that it's harder for them to make the decision to choose that let's pause the show
+[1090.06 --> 1094.62]  for just a minute give a shout out to a sponsor rack space has been helping us out they love open
+[1094.62 --> 1100.56]  source we love open source uh we've been working with rack space for the past year and uh one of the
+[1100.56 --> 1104.52]  things they keep telling me is how much they love open source and that's why they keep sponsoring the
+[1104.52 --> 1109.52]  show and making sure that you know how much they care about it and that's also why they're giving you
+[1109.52 --> 1116.66]  and everyone else who wants it 50 a month in credit for 12 months that's right 50 a month in credit
+[1116.66 --> 1121.92]  for 12 months to explore their open cloud all you got to do is create a developer plus account to get
+[1121.92 --> 1128.26]  started go to the changelaw.com slash rack space to get started you get dev to dev support so if you
+[1128.26 --> 1133.88]  got complex questions you can talk directly to their developers about their sdks and their apis
+[1133.88 --> 1140.08]  they have various services included like monitoring dns auto scaling orchestration private networking the
+[1140.08 --> 1146.24]  list goes on there is no usage limits you can use your services as much as you want and you're only
+[1146.24 --> 1152.80]  billed for usage beyond 50 a month again they're giving away 50 a month in credit for 12 months
+[1152.80 --> 1159.20]  go to the changelaw.com slash rack space to get started and now back to the show yeah something
+[1159.20 --> 1162.74]  we have in our notes here too it's i'm going to quote this back to you because this is what you
+[1162.74 --> 1168.12]  said you said the pearl community and you've said this too here in the show just not as succinctly as
+[1168.12 --> 1172.80]  this um you said the pearl community has been stunningly bad at marketing in this area meaning
+[1172.80 --> 1179.82]  um you know this divide between pearl 5 and pearl 6 and just in general what pearls is going to do
+[1179.82 --> 1184.48]  today and what it's doing today and jared i think that's something maybe we can even possibly help out
+[1184.48 --> 1189.96]  with like you know curtis you mentioned in the bio information you know different areas where pearl
+[1189.96 --> 1194.80]  is doing some cool stuff i think it's neat how the changelaw can kind of step in and have curtis on the
+[1194.80 --> 1200.50]  show and and talk to you know what probably is we have a large ruby audience a large javascript
+[1200.50 --> 1206.30]  audience um to to some people who don't often look at pearl and say oh that's that's neat we should
+[1206.30 --> 1213.80]  try that out but maybe there's a a space here where there's some interest to peek up how great is the
+[1213.80 --> 1220.66]  divide between the two as far as you know sister languages are they syntactically very similar
+[1220.66 --> 1227.92]  or they have huge differences um was pearl 6 was just a huge undertaking uh is it used in production
+[1227.92 --> 1232.80]  i'm just having tons of questions pour out of me here uh pick ovid pick any of those and just run
+[1232.80 --> 1239.72]  with it because i got so many questions now so if you were to look at maybe an interesting example
+[1239.72 --> 1245.92]  would be there are many people who criticize pearl they're unhappy with it people who don't know pearl
+[1245.92 --> 1250.52]  they look at it and they just see a bunch of sigils of punctuation characters all over
+[1250.52 --> 1256.26]  place many of these people could look at pearl and php and not tell you which is which they're not
+[1256.26 --> 1260.40]  going to say anything about php they might have different complaints about php about you know how
+[1260.40 --> 1265.84]  it's kind of ad hoc you know unclear interfaces but for the uninitiated you won't see a difference
+[1265.84 --> 1270.80]  and yet many people will turn to php over pearl simply because it's just ubiquitous on web servers
+[1270.80 --> 1277.20]  and it's so quick and easy to get things started with php uh pearl is extremely powerful um i think in
+[1277.20 --> 1282.08]  many respects i i would definitely prefer pearl over php not just because i know it so well but
+[1282.08 --> 1285.02]  there's some benefits to some of the things it does i'm not going to get into it i don't want to
+[1285.02 --> 1290.08]  fight between languages php is a great thing because it does other stuff well but if you can't tell the
+[1290.08 --> 1296.74]  difference from the outside then if you're in the inside you can easily tell the difference for pro 5 and
+[1296.74 --> 1301.50]  pro 6 from the outside it's a little bit harder to tell the difference until you start getting into
+[1301.50 --> 1305.86]  some of the more advanced features from the inside you're going to see huge differences so they're
+[1305.86 --> 1310.92]  definitely sister languages so you would look at pearl 5 code and there's a lot of pearl 5 code
+[1310.92 --> 1316.74]  which if it's written carefully will run the same under pearl 6 but the differences quickly diverge in
+[1316.74 --> 1322.56]  the cleaner syntax of pearl 6 something we call invariant sigils which really solves a lot of the
+[1322.56 --> 1330.02]  problems that new developers in pearl 5 had a lot of the things that are add-ons to pearl 5 today
+[1330.02 --> 1335.74]  such as meta programming roles which is probably the greatest advancement object-oriented
+[1335.74 --> 1341.18]  programming since simula 67 almost 50 years ago that's going to be baked into the language so many
+[1341.18 --> 1348.16]  powerful things about it which either don't exist directly in pearl 5 or would be very hard to implement
+[1348.16 --> 1354.04]  tell us about that over this roles thing okay roles this comes from smallpox style traits
+[1354.04 --> 1360.50]  and there was a paper called um a brief introduction to traits i believe is the name and it was an
+[1360.50 --> 1367.06]  introduction to solving a long-standing problem we had with uh object-oriented programming so in 1967
+[1367.06 --> 1373.48]  simula 67 was released and that had classes inheritance polymorphism uh encapsulation and people generally
+[1373.48 --> 1381.16]  agreed about all of that except for inheritance inheritance was such a problem so many languages allow
+[1381.16 --> 1388.36]  multiple inheritance such as c++ and others but you're often warned not to actually use it other languages such as
+[1388.36 --> 1395.66]  java ruby and others say okay multiple inheritance is such a problem we're not going to allow that at
+[1395.66 --> 1400.46]  all but here's the alternative and they actually encourage the alternative the problem is the
+[1400.46 --> 1407.32]  alternatives such as mixins interfaces yep they have so many built-in problems themselves that they
+[1407.32 --> 1412.66]  didn't actually solve the underlying problem so the traits researchers we call them roles in pearl because
+[1412.66 --> 1418.32]  traits is actually a term for a different thing what the traits researchers did is they were
+[1418.32 --> 1422.66]  funded to investigate the problem come up with solution and what they discovered was classes actually
+[1422.66 --> 1429.60]  have two roles as an agent of responsibility your employee class as your system grows has to take
+[1429.60 --> 1436.54]  on more and more and more behavior but if you're going to inherit from your employee class then it's an
+[1436.54 --> 1441.54]  agent of code reuse and quite often for code reuse we don't want all that behavior we just want little
+[1441.54 --> 1446.72]  specific bits and pieces and in fact there's a language called beta which was going to implement
+[1446.72 --> 1451.16]  multiple inheritance but when they researched it they found out that almost everyone using multiple
+[1451.16 --> 1455.48]  inheritance wasn't for creating more specialized classes it was just to pull out bits and pieces of
+[1455.48 --> 1461.04]  parent classes so the reality is for code reuse you actually want smaller code because you just want to pick
+[1461.04 --> 1466.06]  out the bits and pieces you need but for class responsibility you need all of that so classes actually serve
+[1466.06 --> 1473.40]  to do a role reuse and responsibility and the problem we've had with inheritance and the solutions such as
+[1473.40 --> 1481.60]  interfaces and mixins has been you need to decouple those so roles has decoupled them entirely and so classes are
+[1481.60 --> 1486.48]  agents of responsibility so an employee might have an employee number but does an employee know how to
+[1486.48 --> 1494.88]  serialize itself to xml or json no it doesn't this is a bit of behavior which could be shared amongst classes
+[1494.88 --> 1501.06]  which are not necessarily related by inheritance so ruby mixins which actually came from a variant of
+[1501.06 --> 1508.90]  lisp called flavors ruby mixins actually properly separate behavior from responsibility but unfortunately
+[1508.90 --> 1515.80]  they implemented it via single inheritance so if you mix in a couple of modules into your ruby code and
+[1515.80 --> 1521.36]  then you call ancestors you'll find that it's implemented as a single inheritance tree and then you wind up with
+[1521.36 --> 1526.90]  strange bugs so in if you have duplicate methods in multiply inherited classes the first class you
+[1526.90 --> 1535.06]  inherit from generally wins in ruby the last mixin that you've mixed in wins with roles it's completely
+[1535.06 --> 1540.10]  different it says oh i'm sorry you have duplicate methods they have the same name it's going to fail
+[1540.10 --> 1544.74]  at composition time close enough to the pile time most people won't notice the difference it'll fail
+[1544.74 --> 1549.58]  composition time says i don't know which of these methods you need so you specifically say i want this method
+[1549.58 --> 1556.76]  from this role i want this method from that role and you don't have any of those composition issues
+[1556.76 --> 1561.90]  that you have with multiple inheritance or mixins or some of the other solutions which are out there
+[1561.90 --> 1567.68]  there's a lot more i can say about them but this is one of the finest things about roles it cleanly
+[1567.68 --> 1573.36]  separates class responsibility from code reuse and more and more developers are finding out that you can
+[1573.36 --> 1579.12]  eliminate inheritance entirely and build an entire large-scale object-oriented system just by
+[1579.12 --> 1584.16]  composing different roles and saying i want this behavior that behavior the other behavior and you
+[1584.16 --> 1588.52]  get composition safety because you don't have to worry about method conflicts anymore you don't have
+[1588.52 --> 1592.56]  to worry about accidentally inheriting a method that you didn't realize that you were inheriting
+[1592.56 --> 1599.64]  and it makes things so much simpler it sounds like a pretty big win so is that available in pearl 6 today
+[1599.64 --> 1604.80]  it's available in pearl 6 today it's available in pearl 5 via something called moose roles there's some
+[1604.80 --> 1610.14]  other role modules out there i have one myself which is actually goes back to the original research
+[1610.14 --> 1617.46]  on this there's some guarantees that roles actually provide such as being commutative and associative
+[1617.46 --> 1622.84]  basically mathematical guarantees to get around some of the issues that you had with inheritance and
+[1622.84 --> 1630.90]  mixins and different systems meet those guarantees in different ways but it's available out there but many
+[1630.90 --> 1635.30]  other languages have this i know there's been some experiment with java to do this there's been
+[1635.30 --> 1642.30]  some experiments with python to do this i'm pretty sure it's available in ruby javascript has something
+[1642.30 --> 1647.36]  i believe called juice which i had heard about i don't know how far along that is which also
+[1647.36 --> 1654.20]  makes roles available so there's a wide variety of languages which have adopted it but you know how much
+[1654.20 --> 1658.12]  people are actually using it it's hard to say but the pearl community has bought into it wholesale
+[1658.12 --> 1663.00]  because it tremendously simplifies your code and makes it much easier to understand
+[1663.00 --> 1670.10]  pearl 6 sounds very it sounds very experimental and research oriented is it run by the same group
+[1670.10 --> 1678.12]  of folks that are doing the pearl 5 stuff or are they also diverged um yes and no does that help
+[1678.12 --> 1685.94]  uh nope please explain i'm glad i can clarify that so lary wall the founder of pearl um has shifted
+[1685.94 --> 1692.38]  focus from pearl 5 to pearl 6 and many people now call pearl 6 rakudo just to distinguish it from
+[1692.38 --> 1700.58]  pearl 5 would you say rakuda rakudo r-a-k-u-d-o interesting earlier on i was thinking man maybe it just
+[1700.58 --> 1706.34]  needs a separate word like a separate term altogether yes and i would like to see that term adopted a
+[1706.34 --> 1712.30]  little bit more widely but yeah there's there's a lot of background to that um and pearl 6 the name's
+[1712.30 --> 1717.20]  been around for so long that they've stuck with it right so there's that marketing thing about you
+[1717.20 --> 1723.42]  know don't shift your name because you'll lose people so possibly that's some of it yeah anyways
+[1723.42 --> 1729.76]  you were saying so larry wall uh has shifted his focus from pearl 5 to pearl 6 and has been pushing
+[1729.76 --> 1736.84]  it forward and it's just making tremendous strides damian conway uh he wrote uh pearl best practices and
+[1736.84 --> 1740.68]  quite a number of other excellent books uh involving pearl including object-oriented pearl
+[1740.68 --> 1747.20]  and he has also been doing a huge amount of work with this but many people such as uh patrick michaud
+[1747.20 --> 1753.74]  who was heavily involved with php and others carl msak many others have been heavily involved in
+[1753.74 --> 1760.26]  pushing pearl 6 along jonathan worthington he was a pearl 5 hacker but mostly focuses on pearl 6 now and
+[1760.26 --> 1764.46]  he's been doing a lot of work putting it on the jvm and writing something called more vm
+[1764.46 --> 1770.42]  so there's now originally it was a bunch of pearl 5 hackers now there's a completely separate
+[1770.42 --> 1775.16]  community of people from a variety of different backgrounds many of them academic many of them
+[1775.16 --> 1780.14]  uh basically you know heavily involved in the real world who have been building pearl 6 many of whom
+[1780.14 --> 1787.00]  have no background in pearl 5 anymore so is pearl 6 out there in production or is it still kind of at a
+[1787.00 --> 1792.30]  at an experimental phase i do know there are some folks who have been using it in production
+[1792.30 --> 1798.76]  generally they're using this for smaller tools the sort of small tools that you might uh build shell
+[1798.76 --> 1803.34]  scripts for because that's a little bit safer a little bit lower risk uh large-scale systems
+[1803.34 --> 1810.64]  are generally not being built in pearl 6 yet um there is more work to be done with the final work for
+[1810.64 --> 1817.88]  porting it to more vm and the jvm to finally get a production ready there's more i can say about that
+[1817.88 --> 1824.90]  but i don't know how much i'm actually allowed to say uh simply because um for the long time
+[1824.90 --> 1829.00]  pearl 6 has always been promised by christmas but we just don't say which one
+[1829.00 --> 1835.00]  yeah i'm reading some commentary behind the scenes here just sort of listening to you by the way i love
+[1835.00 --> 1841.98]  that explanation of roles versus inheritance that was um really great but some some thoughts here from
+[1841.98 --> 1847.90]  reddit i'm not sure that's the best place to go for thoughts but um it seems like people have this
+[1847.90 --> 1852.36]  huge question in the brook community about what's happening worth pearl 6 then even specifically
+[1852.36 --> 1859.02]  larry wall you've mentioned a couple times and whether or not it's uh they've questioned um the code
+[1859.02 --> 1865.50]  quality uh or sorry the language designs not so much code quality but uh some other things happening
+[1865.50 --> 1870.84]  there it seems like stepping back to earlier you mentioned this you know maybe it's not so much
+[1870.84 --> 1875.18]  marketing maybe it's communication and that's where i feel like having you on the show today and
+[1875.18 --> 1880.24]  just sort of getting this bird's eye view from uh someone inside the community that's been there for a
+[1880.24 --> 1886.04]  while that's sort of as you said uh by accident to a degree a happy accident that you can sort of
+[1886.04 --> 1891.86]  disseminate this idea of what pearl 6 is going to be and what profile is doing currently because
+[1891.86 --> 1898.62]  uh to rewind just a tiny bit you mentioned you had a role a role um roles and pearl and i believe
+[1898.62 --> 1906.46]  it's role basic is that your is that your version of roles yes there's there's a second traits paper
+[1906.46 --> 1912.58]  um let me see the typed calculus no a traits the formal definition i think is the name which despite
+[1912.58 --> 1918.56]  the name is actually a fairly easy to read paper which unfortunately i consider to be the traits paper
+[1918.56 --> 1923.70]  that no one has ever read but should um and it's absolutely fantastic and it clears up a lot of the
+[1923.70 --> 1928.60]  communication i've actually spoken with a number of traits researchers to clarify some of the issues in there
+[1928.62 --> 1935.34]  um and traits themselves still have some issues um i should call them roles just because that's what
+[1935.34 --> 1940.40]  pearl does they still have some issues because this is programming and in programming we don't have
+[1940.40 --> 1945.56]  perfect systems anywhere but they are the best thing to come along and i have worked with you know so
+[1945.56 --> 1951.18]  many alternatives and they do solve so many problems but yes i wrote role basic in an attempt to
+[1951.18 --> 1958.44]  create a system that goes back to the original definition and truly respects uh some of the rules
+[1958.44 --> 1964.92]  such as uh you know being commutative and associative for example if you have a role which uh does json
+[1964.92 --> 1973.18]  serialization and you have a role which uh does i don't know yaml serialization and if you compose
+[1973.18 --> 1979.18]  both of those roles they should it doesn't matter which order you compose them in unlike you know inheritance
+[1979.18 --> 1986.90]  or mixins it's guaranteed you get the same behavior technically it is possible to violate this contract
+[1986.90 --> 1995.06]  uh with roles or if you have the role which does json serialization consumes another role which does
+[1995.06 --> 2002.70]  marshalling um you might just decide no i'm going to consume my does marshalling role and that is going to
+[2002.70 --> 2008.30]  consume the does json and does yaml role so i'll get all of the serialization methods all at once
+[2008.30 --> 2014.66]  but in theory according to the original traits research it doesn't matter how you consume those
+[2014.66 --> 2020.60]  how you mix and match those in roles it is possible for that contract to be violated depending upon how
+[2020.60 --> 2027.44]  you do it it's unusual for this to happen and you know dedicated programmers who know that you know
+[2027.44 --> 2031.38]  different methods should actually have different method names are really good about avoiding those
+[2031.38 --> 2037.80]  problems but there are still some subtle edge cases but they are in my experience more than an order
+[2037.80 --> 2044.44]  of magnitude less than you have the edge cases with mixins and inheritance so you probably do most of
+[2044.44 --> 2051.56]  your programming in pearl 5 right yes and this role basic is that what you use for your roles or because
+[2051.56 --> 2055.70]  you said this is your version of it there was another one out there you mentioned um but i didn't catch
+[2055.70 --> 2063.00]  that one though i use uh there's also a role tiny i use almost exclusively moose role because moose is
+[2063.00 --> 2067.64]  the most fully fledged object-oriented system out there and i'm not just talking about for pearl
+[2067.64 --> 2074.54]  moose is it brings a lot of the power of you know what we would typically associate with static languages
+[2074.54 --> 2081.70]  to dynamic languages so when i declare an attribute such as social security number i can say a social
+[2081.70 --> 2086.14]  security number is a and then i can define a very rigid type constraint for what that social security
+[2086.14 --> 2090.42]  number is and rather than you know embedding my code with a whole bunch of type checks everywhere
+[2090.42 --> 2093.96]  you know is a social security number really fitting the format of social security number
+[2093.96 --> 2099.68]  are the first three digits allowed first three digits or not i can simply declare a social security
+[2099.68 --> 2103.62]  type have that provide the validation and anything which consumes a social security number
+[2103.62 --> 2109.82]  it has to match that type or it's going to fail and this is something you often don't get
+[2109.82 --> 2115.68]  with many dynamic languages we tend to play fast and loose with our data but there's so many powerful
+[2115.68 --> 2121.52]  things you can do such as lazy evaluation of attributes so you don't create the connection
+[2121.52 --> 2126.90]  to the database unless you actually ask for the connection to the database or you know just being
+[2126.90 --> 2130.82]  able to list all of your attributes but on top of that you have meta programming so i use meta
+[2130.82 --> 2136.84]  programming quite heavily i built something called test class moose which is basically a an x-unit framework
+[2136.84 --> 2143.48]  for large scale enterprise class databases if you will and it's being used more and more and what
+[2143.48 --> 2150.56]  what i've done with the metadata system within moose is i'm able to inspect the methods to figure out
+[2150.56 --> 2155.28]  what test methods are available i'm able to find out what attributes are available i'm able to compose
+[2155.28 --> 2160.66]  roles into things so i can have roles defining fixtures so i can easily load fixtures on demand
+[2160.66 --> 2167.70]  and if you've never played with meta programming before it is hard to appreciate the power of it
+[2167.70 --> 2173.06]  and once you play with meta programming you never want to go back because it makes so many of your
+[2173.06 --> 2181.14]  problems so much simpler the cost is the software you build is simpler it is easier to write it is
+[2181.14 --> 2185.52]  faster right it's a little bit harder for some other people to understand it because most people
+[2185.52 --> 2192.26]  don't understand the concept of meta programming at first it sounds like you uh also i mean you
+[2192.26 --> 2196.48]  mentioned testing here a few times in that conversation obviously when you're meta programming
+[2196.48 --> 2201.78]  and when you have dynamic languages um testing becomes a huge part of that you know assurance that
+[2201.78 --> 2206.38]  things are still working the way that you wanted them to um you said you wrote a test harness that
+[2206.38 --> 2211.68]  ships with the language um maybe tell us about the testing story in the pearl community whether it's
+[2211.68 --> 2216.52]  tdd style or uh kind of what the just what the community looks like and as far as testing code
+[2216.52 --> 2222.94]  goes pearl has possibly i mean ruby talks about themselves just being test infected and they have
+[2222.94 --> 2230.86]  nothing on pearl if so cpan the um this is the central archive of pearl code that most developers tend
+[2230.86 --> 2237.94]  to push their code towards and if i push my code up to the cpan it's immediately pushed out to the cpan
+[2237.94 --> 2243.94]  testers network where people are running the tests for my code on all sorts of different flavors of
+[2243.94 --> 2250.18]  linux all sorts of different flavors of windows all sorts of different macs uh on aix on solaris you
+[2250.18 --> 2254.00]  name it my code is being tested there with tons of different operating systems tons of different
+[2254.00 --> 2258.12]  versions of pearl and i find out very quickly which operating systems which versions of pearl
+[2258.12 --> 2265.24]  my tests are failing on and this is for free and this is the sort of thing that enterprise
+[2265.24 --> 2272.10]  customers can pay hundreds of thousands of dollars a year for right and there are millions and millions
+[2272.10 --> 2278.08]  literally of test reports out there on cpan testers and when you go out there and you pull up
+[2278.08 --> 2284.24]  one of the versions of your module and you know my version of this module you know 1.14 happens to fail
+[2284.24 --> 2291.72]  on solaris with pearl 516 and then you can go and if you've written your tests well for printing out
+[2291.72 --> 2296.36]  good explanations of what's going on with your test you can say oh now i understand what's failing
+[2296.36 --> 2300.88]  and even if you don't know solaris you can contact a solaris user or perhaps a person who originally
+[2300.88 --> 2306.52]  ran it on their what we call smoke machines they're smokers and say my module failed on your machine with
+[2306.52 --> 2311.44]  this version of pearl can you help me with this and you get this powerful free feedback that is
+[2311.44 --> 2318.12]  virtually impossible to get otherwise and anytime i upload a new module to the cpan i get hundreds and
+[2318.12 --> 2325.76]  hundreds of test reports coming back very quickly and it's just phenomenal and i don't see that other
+[2325.76 --> 2331.52]  places if i want to install a module on my local machine i can have the option to run the tests or
+[2331.52 --> 2337.44]  not so if i want to run the tests i can see what's going on i can give feedback to the module authors it's
+[2337.44 --> 2343.20]  very easy and it's gotten to the point it's very very much frowned upon for popular modules to be
+[2343.20 --> 2349.20]  uploaded to cpan without tests and the test coverage is just phenomenal in many of these
+[2349.20 --> 2354.60]  modules and it really it's nice for me as a developer when i'm recommending you know use this
+[2354.60 --> 2359.34]  new module in your code base because it's going to save you a lot of time and trouble and they say
+[2359.34 --> 2363.98]  well is it robust and i can say look at this test suite look at all these test results and all these
+[2363.98 --> 2368.76]  different operating systems all these different versions of pearl look at all those green bars there
+[2368.76 --> 2374.82]  and it's just fantastic so i love it makes me very happy i did not know that about cpan that
+[2374.82 --> 2381.86]  tester what do you call it the test smokers uh the smokers um it's oh my goodness i'm trying to
+[2381.86 --> 2388.72]  remember the name um it's something that i've taken for granted for so long to be quite honest uh the
+[2388.72 --> 2395.82]  cpan reporters um i would have to go and look up the url offhand but it's you know you can go out
+[2395.82 --> 2399.72]  there very quickly and see all of the test reports which are available for all of your modules but
+[2399.72 --> 2404.86]  this is free and anything anyone uploads is automatically run through the system by just
+[2404.86 --> 2409.84]  dedicated volunteers so it's not something you have to sign up for it's not something you have
+[2409.84 --> 2415.58]  to ask for it just automatically happens for you that's awesome you know when i was back in college
+[2415.58 --> 2421.12]  and i was doing some pearl um i liked the language i still like it to this day i think you know i saw the
+[2421.12 --> 2426.38]  the value especially in the regular expression stuff back then that just was so easy comparative
+[2426.38 --> 2432.48]  to what i had done previously um and cpan was always boasted as you know this great thing now as
+[2432.48 --> 2439.40]  a fledgling young programmer i'm probably like 2001 2002 man i just could not figure cpan out um i
+[2439.40 --> 2443.54]  couldn't even get past like the configure step to get that thing out there i'm just trying to get
+[2443.54 --> 2449.44]  somebody else's code on my system um and i'm sure it's an isolated incident but maybe give us
+[2449.44 --> 2455.62]  um some background on cpan i know that it's it's much touted as as a great system it sounds like
+[2455.62 --> 2461.30]  that the automated testing thing is really cool tell us more about it so the cpan is a comprehensive
+[2461.30 --> 2467.52]  pearl archive network and there's a module cpan.pm which comes shipped core with pearl so when you
+[2467.52 --> 2474.36]  first download pearl you can run the cpan command cpan all over case and what you experienced was a
+[2474.36 --> 2479.74]  a long-standing problem today what it does is it says oh this is the first time you're running cpan
+[2479.74 --> 2484.36]  would you like me to configure as much as i can automatically you hit yes and it magically works
+[2484.36 --> 2493.08]  that sounds great so that's not what i was having i know yeah basically they they took the trouble to
+[2493.08 --> 2498.12]  make the pain go away so i often install new versions of pearl i'm playing around with different things
+[2498.12 --> 2503.94]  i set up cpan for the first time and if i select yes um occasionally it might pick a mirror too far
+[2503.94 --> 2511.74]  away from me but aside from that it works beautifully and it's not a problem you also have cpan minus
+[2511.74 --> 2520.50]  so app cpan so cpan min dot us um that's the site which has a very simple that has a very simple
+[2520.50 --> 2525.70]  command that you can run which will allow you to install cpan minus which is kind of like cpan
+[2525.70 --> 2530.78]  except it does even less so cpan when it downloads your code it will download all the dependencies run
+[2530.78 --> 2535.16]  all the tests and then you have some dependency failing on a test which is completely unrelated to
+[2535.16 --> 2541.36]  what you're doing or cpan minus will just take all the pain away and just build your code and install
+[2541.36 --> 2546.52]  it for you very quickly and it's very powerful and most of the time it just works wonderfully so we're
+[2546.52 --> 2551.68]  actually winding up with multiple different solutions depending upon what your particular needs are how
+[2551.68 --> 2555.98]  thorough do you want your test coverage to be are you not worried about that do you want to just
+[2555.98 --> 2561.22]  install a simple module quickly most of it's just painless and people don't have to worry about it
+[2561.22 --> 2566.24]  anymore so what you discovered was a long-standing complaint but it pretty much doesn't exist today
+[2566.24 --> 2573.14]  cool cool i just loaded up cpan minus and it redirected me to a github page which makes me which
+[2573.14 --> 2578.98]  makes me wonder like where are y'all at with git and github and having code be publicly available on those
+[2578.98 --> 2585.60]  on on github at least yeah embarrassingly enough i just had the same thing yeah is that so is that
+[2585.60 --> 2592.36]  not supposed to happen it wasn't happening a few days ago okay so that makes for a very awkward turn
+[2592.36 --> 2601.04]  for this conversation or a or a perfectly intended turn yeah in our eyes so many pearl developers are
+[2601.04 --> 2607.24]  heavily uh involved in using git so my company actually offers git training also just because it's
+[2607.24 --> 2612.38]  incredibly popular and it was interesting that you know i would have svn available for the long time
+[2612.38 --> 2617.50]  for the longest time and you know oh you can submit patches to my modules you know via svn or you know
+[2617.50 --> 2623.54]  just using the diff patch command whatever um and i could count on the fingers of one hand the number of
+[2623.54 --> 2629.92]  patches i would get per year since i switched to doing most of my development and sharing my code on github
+[2629.92 --> 2636.02]  i'm getting patches all the time and it's just phenomenal and because the pearl community is very keen
+[2636.02 --> 2643.84]  about testing and documentation i'm usually getting patches with full documentation full tests or if
+[2643.84 --> 2647.68]  they don't have them people will say you know this is just exploratory to solve this little itch that i
+[2647.68 --> 2652.70]  have what do you think and it's a way of collaboration that you know just didn't exist before and i'm very
+[2652.70 --> 2657.68]  very pleased about that most of the pearl communities bought into it cool and are those integrated git and
+[2657.68 --> 2664.90]  c or github and cpan as far as publishing goes you have you have what are called metafiles available
+[2664.90 --> 2673.52]  in your distributions which can say um my bug queue is actually out on github the actual base repository
+[2673.52 --> 2679.26]  is on github so if you go out to cpan and someone set up their metafiles correctly you can just click
+[2679.26 --> 2684.20]  directly on the source repository and it'll take you over to you know github or click on the bug tracker
+[2684.20 --> 2689.38]  instead of the built-in rt trackers that cpan uses it can take you over to the github track tracker
+[2689.38 --> 2695.56]  or any other site you want it's not just tied into github specifically it's a generic system saying
+[2695.56 --> 2702.08]  this is where my you know source repository actually is this is where my bug tracker actually is and it
+[2702.08 --> 2707.48]  just handles it for you but it's very agnostic about the cpan isn't tied into github but it's
+[2707.48 --> 2713.34]  probably the most popular alternative today we're gonna pause the show for just a minute give a shout out
+[2713.34 --> 2719.88]  to a sponsor status page dot io is a new sponsor for us we're glad to have them it's all about
+[2719.88 --> 2726.18]  transparency during downtime and the best way i know to do that is to use status page dot io to create a
+[2726.18 --> 2732.14]  status page for your app or your website so you can have an always up and always on way to communicate
+[2732.14 --> 2737.64]  to your customers when you're in a bad situation your customers can subscribe to updates you can
+[2737.64 --> 2742.84]  broadcast upcoming maintenance windows you can post updates minute by minute hour by hour keeping
+[2742.84 --> 2748.58]  everyone informed everyone on the know integration with services like new relic and pingdom allow you
+[2748.58 --> 2753.04]  to show off graphs to your customers that they care about you can even embed your system status
+[2753.04 --> 2759.36]  within your actual app head to status page dot io to get started it's free to set up launch it when
+[2759.36 --> 2766.56]  you're ready and tell them the changelog sent you and now back to the show so as the cpan sort of act as a
+[2766.56 --> 2772.76]  registry in that case then more like here's where pro modules go and you can find and install new
+[2772.76 --> 2778.52]  pro modules via cpan is that how that works yes that is far and away the most popular option there's
+[2778.52 --> 2787.02]  also metacpan.org um with the search right yes and some people like that some people don't uh myself uh i
+[2787.02 --> 2792.40]  i think it's interesting but i'm so old school and i'm so used to search cpan.org that i don't even
+[2792.40 --> 2797.84]  remember that there's a www cpan.org i just hit search cpan.org i look for the things that i want
+[2797.84 --> 2803.86]  i read about them i read the test results i read the code yeah okay i'll use this so in your community
+[2803.86 --> 2809.40]  or in your sorry in your opinion what is the the state of the community the pro community in terms of
+[2809.40 --> 2815.32]  transitioning the open source work they do have out there to github because you said that
+[2815.32 --> 2820.12]  earlier you do some get training and stuff like that what is the state of the pro community as it
+[2820.12 --> 2826.82]  relates to github and open source on github and just general availability of of i think what we see
+[2826.82 --> 2832.46]  over the last three or four years just more and more and more developers moving to github is just a
+[2832.46 --> 2838.62]  a better way to socially code together and pearl's been open source since the beginning so it just seems
+[2838.62 --> 2844.12]  like a natural fit for them y'all to eventually move there but what's the state the way it's working right
+[2844.12 --> 2851.58]  now is most of the tool chain available for pearl is centered around cpan so cpan is a central
+[2851.58 --> 2859.44]  repository for the canonical versions of modules and people use github for collaboration i have a
+[2859.44 --> 2864.28]  number of modules which are available out on github for doing various things that i don't have the
+[2864.28 --> 2868.16]  latest versions of those modules out on cpan because i want what's on cpan to be a little bit
+[2868.16 --> 2873.92]  more stable and if i move it from github to the cpan and i'm not entirely comfortable with it i might
+[2873.92 --> 2879.10]  mark it as a developer release so that it won't be installed by default but we use github for
+[2879.10 --> 2885.10]  collaboration for sharing for talking about new ideas we use cpan as the central repository so that
+[2885.10 --> 2890.22]  when you want to install code or you want to manage your cpan code via pinto or something like that
+[2890.22 --> 2896.68]  that you know the one spot to go for that that makes a lot of sense one last question then we'll get
+[2896.68 --> 2901.60]  to the close here so it seems like each language especially talking about web uh web programming
+[2901.60 --> 2907.14]  languages they all kind of have their killer app you know uh ruby has rails you know you might say
+[2907.14 --> 2914.06]  php has wordpress uh javascript has node and you know python has django and and there's alternatives
+[2914.06 --> 2919.60]  of course is there like a go-to uh web tool or framework in the pearl community that everybody's
+[2919.60 --> 2925.92]  using or is it more kind of diverse it's definitely more kind of diverse there are a number of really
+[2925.92 --> 2934.20]  phenomenal tools out there so catalyst is has for the longest time been the default web tool and many
+[2934.20 --> 2939.62]  of the clients that i go into today are using catalyst and catalyst is a wonderful framework
+[2939.62 --> 2944.64]  mostly based around the concept of mvc but one of the things that differs from some of the
+[2944.64 --> 2950.72]  competitors and other languages if you will is that it's agnostic about the mv and c components however
+[2950.72 --> 2957.70]  you want to plug those in um do you want to use dbx class for your you know the back end with for the
+[2957.70 --> 2962.42]  orm which is going to be backing up whatever your model is eventually going to be do you want to use
+[2962.42 --> 2966.86]  rose db do you want to use something different what do you want to have in your view layer to present
+[2966.86 --> 2970.96]  things to people you know from the html you know do you want to use template toolkit do you want to use
+[2970.96 --> 2977.30]  template xslate do you want to use you know mason what do you want to do is however you want to set it up
+[2977.30 --> 2982.94]  so there's a bit more of a learning curve for that but it means you can customize for exactly what you
+[2982.94 --> 2988.94]  need there's other things which are extremely popular such as dancer 2 and mojolicious which
+[2988.94 --> 2993.32]  have different philosophies which are very easy to use they're lighter weight than catalyst they're
+[2993.32 --> 2998.60]  not as fully featured as catalyst but they are so easy to use and so powerful that you know i'm seeing
+[2998.60 --> 3005.06]  more and more sites switch over to them and they're really nice when you talk about the orm layer dbx class
+[3005.06 --> 3011.16]  is just an absolutely phenomenal orm rose db is also excellent it's not as popular it's just
+[3011.16 --> 3018.42]  blazingly fast this is if you like orms i know i know that not everyone does we have an embarrassing
+[3018.42 --> 3024.98]  richness of powerful tools because the community pro community has been around so much longer than
+[3024.98 --> 3030.84]  many of the other communities that we have a number of very mature products out there but
+[3030.84 --> 3036.90]  unfortunately that means if someone says what should i use for you know writing this brilliant
+[3036.90 --> 3041.52]  new website that i have you said well you've got this you've got this you've got this and all of them
+[3041.52 --> 3048.06]  are excellent all of them have pros and cons and a lot of people i just want that one thing and they
+[3048.06 --> 3052.12]  just want to be told what to do and that's a little bit harder to do with pearl because we have
+[3052.12 --> 3059.42]  you know an embarrassment of riches if you will excellent excellent so just to preempt the haters
+[3059.42 --> 3065.62]  uh yes i realize that no i realize that node is more than just a web thing i just want to get that
+[3065.62 --> 3071.26]  out there in case um people thought that that was what i was trying to say um very cool man it sounds
+[3071.26 --> 3077.64]  like you guys got a lot going on um every time i talk with somebody on the show i end up being like
+[3077.64 --> 3082.96]  i gotta go look into what is going on in this community so uh ovid you did a great job representing
+[3082.96 --> 3088.16]  pearl uh yeah do you you said you do consulting you have a book anything you want to uh plug or
+[3088.16 --> 3093.86]  promote and while you're here i would say that our company's website is allaroundtheworld.fr
+[3093.86 --> 3100.58]  that's because we're based in france we do pearl consulting we really specialize in going into
+[3100.58 --> 3105.22]  companies which have older legacy systems and rebuilding them testing them making the modern
+[3105.22 --> 3110.66]  systems easier to work on we offer database training get training um i also teach companies
+[3110.66 --> 3116.78]  how do you how to use agile appropriately or if they should use agile because that's not always true
+[3116.78 --> 3125.84]  and so it's it's kind of oh goodness i can we could spend easily a couple of hours with me going
+[3125.84 --> 3132.10]  off about why agile is wonderful and why it is not wonderful and i would follow you both ways
+[3132.10 --> 3140.48]  it's yeah because i have some opinions there as well i'm a strong strong agile fan but it's not
+[3140.48 --> 3146.46]  always the right choice that's right so we we do a lot of things but mostly it's database get training
+[3146.46 --> 3153.18]  uh teaching testing and particularly myself and our other associates going in and fixing people's
+[3153.18 --> 3159.68]  legacy data uh pearl systems and making them easier to use it's amazing how much work there is there
+[3159.68 --> 3164.08]  any any particular repos you want to mention that you've got on github or anywhere else that uh
+[3164.08 --> 3170.28]  that you can use some extra firepower behind like uh some attention to oh my favorite one is
+[3170.28 --> 3175.50]  unfortunately a private repo it's uh some a project code named veer which no one's seen but i've
+[3175.50 --> 3180.12]  talked about it a lot of my blogs i'm building a text-based mmorpg in pearl
+[3180.12 --> 3188.76]  when's that going to get out there i'm hoping to have christmas by christmas i'm hoping to have an
+[3188.76 --> 3194.30]  elf out by the end of next year we actually might have a new developer being pulled up in on it this
+[3194.30 --> 3199.74]  year uh there's actually been mmorpgs written in pearl before but this one um i found an interesting
+[3199.74 --> 3205.48]  niche in the market which is completely uncovered and which was a lot of fun so i'm just building a
+[3205.48 --> 3210.92]  science fiction world a true rpg not one of these things you just click around on like bulletin boards
+[3210.92 --> 3216.76]  on the web but it's text-based so i'm having a lot of fun with that otherwise i would tell people
+[3216.76 --> 3222.96]  check out my test class moose repository if you're interested in pearl and you need to build a large
+[3222.96 --> 3230.04]  scale test suite it's much much better than many of the other alternatives out there for the same
+[3230.04 --> 3234.14]  reason you wouldn't build a huge website today without choosing an appropriate framework you don't want
+[3234.14 --> 3240.30]  to build a huge test suite without choosing an appropriate framework we can't uh we can't
+[3240.30 --> 3245.22]  obviously close this show unless we ask the the notorious question which is who is your programming
+[3245.22 --> 3249.36]  hero and i figure with uh some of the names you've mentioned today you probably either will repeat
+[3249.36 --> 3255.94]  them or you'll have new heroes to mention so um let us know who your hero is oh you're not going to
+[3255.94 --> 3265.22]  believe me my programming heroes are my cobalt professors in college um the reason for that is
+[3265.22 --> 3271.12]  so my java instructors i remember our very first java instructor she was fresh out of uni and she had
+[3271.12 --> 3276.94]  trouble explaining the difference between a class and an instance and it didn't appear that she was a bad
+[3276.94 --> 3282.96]  teacher she just seemed a little confused on the concept my second java instructor um i accidentally
+[3282.96 --> 3287.92]  turned in some code with some j unit tests and he was confused and kicked it back and said he didn't
+[3287.92 --> 3294.18]  understand what that was um i've had this happen with um professors in a number of different programming
+[3294.18 --> 3299.32]  languages who's who just didn't have real world experience but the cobalt teachers they had actually
+[3299.32 --> 3306.64]  come back in from the field many many years of experience and were able to give a class full of students who
+[3306.64 --> 3314.42]  were often you know not very interested or you know not very responsive excellent real world descriptions
+[3314.42 --> 3321.10]  of what you need and i still remember the time i was trying to sign up for a c class at a uni and they
+[3321.10 --> 3326.40]  told me we don't offer c anymore because the future is object-oriented and c is obsolete
+[3326.40 --> 3336.78]  yes completely ivory tower but the cobalt developers they the programmers the professors they understood
+[3336.78 --> 3342.36]  that okay it's not the most popular thing out there but they had tons of real world experience which they
+[3342.36 --> 3347.26]  were able to communicate in a way that my other professors didn't and they were some of the best
+[3347.26 --> 3351.86]  examples i had of what we actually need out there for teaching the next generation of students
+[3351.86 --> 3358.70]  the combination between deep theory that is really useful at surprising times but the real world
+[3358.70 --> 3366.24]  pragmatism of i gotta get stuff done so they are my programming heroes even though no one knows their
+[3366.24 --> 3373.46]  name no one cares about them they're the ones that we need to see a lot more of you know often uh you
+[3373.46 --> 3378.88]  know teachers end up being heroes anyways that's just a good thing at least you know on this show reach
+[3378.88 --> 3383.86]  back out to them i wonder if uh if they happen to know that uh they're your heroes money chance
+[3383.86 --> 3390.64]  but i should find out and contact them what'd you say i said i should find out and contact them at some
+[3390.64 --> 3395.66]  point yeah i mean because you know anytime you've touched somebody's life it's it's nice to know because
+[3395.66 --> 3400.54]  it's it's sort of like this uh pay it forward you know for teachers they don't always see the fruits of their
+[3400.54 --> 3405.04]  labor uh they don't have the luxury of instant gratification you know that's sort of like
+[3405.04 --> 3409.90]  plant a seed and it grows over years and years and years and often oftentimes that person goes on
+[3409.90 --> 3414.64]  to do great things and i'll be nuts to that person but i know that i've got a couple heroes who are
+[3414.64 --> 3420.68]  like that so just saying but okay curtis it's uh it's definitely been a pleasure having you on the
+[3420.68 --> 3425.30]  show i think that uh you've given jared and i uh some food for thought so to speak on on the pro
+[3425.30 --> 3430.28]  community and the pro ecosystem and how we can sort of support that in in our own way here at the
+[3430.28 --> 3436.36]  changelog to just help with this communication and marketing divide of pearl five versus six and
+[3436.36 --> 3441.48]  just in general what's happening it seems like you got a lot of fun great things happening that uh
+[3441.48 --> 3447.00]  that just need a maybe a clear i don't even i don't even know how to say it but i'm sure there's
+[3447.00 --> 3450.36]  some way we can help so we'll we'll do whatever we can to to help you and help the pro community
+[3450.36 --> 3454.76]  um we do want to mention a couple sponsors to help make this show possible before we close out
+[3454.76 --> 3461.96]  code ship rack space and status page dot io all great sponsors of the show we uh we couldn't do
+[3461.96 --> 3467.86]  without their help so uh curtis jared let's uh let's say goodbye adam jared thank you very much
+[3467.86 --> 3468.38]  i had a blast
+[3484.76 --> 3507.08]  all right guess no bye from jared i forgot to say goodbye
+[3507.08 --> 3515.42]  i had to say goodbye real quick goodbye just don't worry about oh i had my thing you've got
+[3515.42 --> 3521.76]  to include that in the clip i was muted the podcast i was i was muted i said goodbye to myself
+[3521.76 --> 3526.76]  on mute that's funny i'm like i felt like i said goodbye

Blogging for Hackers_transcript.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,727 @@
+[0.00 --> 14.78]  welcome back everyone this is the changelog where a member supported blog podcast and weekly email
+[14.78 --> 21.48]  comes fresh and what's new in open source check out the blog at the changelog.com our past shows
+[21.48 --> 28.24]  at five by five dot tv slash changelog and you're listening to episode 125 i talk with parker more
+[28.24 --> 34.18]  about all things jekyll and how he got started in open source today's show is sponsored by rackspace
+[34.18 --> 39.72]  snap ci and top towel we'll tell you a bit more about top towel and snap ci later in the show but
+[39.72 --> 44.80]  our friends at rackspace continue to dedicate themselves to support the open source and
+[44.80 --> 49.54]  developer community with their developer discount and now you can go make something awesome on them
+[49.54 --> 54.44]  you're the makers each day you get up thinking about new awesome amazing stuff and they just want
+[54.44 --> 59.64]  to give back and help you put your imagination and skills to work and rackspace wants to give you
+[59.64 --> 64.00]  something special just to say thank you sign up today for their developer discount and get three
+[64.00 --> 69.56]  hundred dollars three hundred dollars in free cloud services on your rackspace cloud account
+[69.56 --> 74.78]  this discount applies to new products like their performance cloud service as well as their cloud
+[74.78 --> 80.40]  queues and you're even eligible for early access to new features and products they roll out so
+[80.40 --> 87.36]  make something awesome get started today developer.rackspace.com slash dev trial and now on to the show
+[87.36 --> 94.94]  we're joined today by parker moore he's uh parker you're a developer you're doing all sorts of cool
+[94.94 --> 99.78]  stuff you're you're you're young you're still going to school you're interning at github you have a
+[99.78 --> 105.22]  pretty fantastic story so um you know i wanted to have you on the show because i've been a fan of what
+[105.22 --> 108.88]  you've been doing with jekyll so i wanted to kind of hear from the horse's mouth how to speak
+[108.88 --> 114.10]  about who this man is and what y'all are what you're doing um in open source and what you're
+[114.10 --> 119.56]  doing for uh for coding and stuff like that so let's uh let's kick off the show by i guess the
+[119.56 --> 124.82]  easiest way possible maybe to give the listeners a peek into who you are so when you introduce yourself
+[124.82 --> 129.90]  to a crowd of people how do you do it um well i guess i've never had to introduce myself to a crowd
+[129.90 --> 137.04]  of people of a technology or high technology background um but i'll give it a shot um as you said
+[137.04 --> 144.90]  i'm parker um i'm a student at cornell university um about to graduate um in august with a degree in
+[144.90 --> 149.60]  information science um i've been programming for a really long time since maybe seventh grade
+[149.60 --> 159.30]  and have loved it i found ruby um in maybe 2011 and have loved it ever since it's a fantastic language
+[159.30 --> 168.18]  i have a lot of fun um and in 2012 i found myself um conversing with tom preston warner
+[168.18 --> 176.22]  and um i asked to take over the project jekyll and the rest is sort of history yeah that's that is a
+[176.22 --> 181.22]  that's i want to tell that history as best we can so let's let's maybe rewind a little further back
+[181.22 --> 186.68]  in the day then so you said you've been programming for a while um how early seventh grade is when i started
+[186.68 --> 191.28]  um my math teacher in seventh grade uh with whom i spent a lot of time because that was the year
+[191.28 --> 196.02]  that i wanted to get ahead in math and so i was taking two math courses simultaneously um i forget
+[196.02 --> 201.52]  what they were but like geometry probably you know uh probability that sort of thing um and then also
+[201.52 --> 207.86]  moving up to sort of more of the pre-calculus stuff so um i was spending a lot of time with this
+[207.86 --> 215.76]  this math teacher um and he was a huge math geek and he had a bunch of apple 2e's in his in his
+[215.76 --> 222.62]  room as well as a couple old macintoshes um and this was right before the mac g5 came out so this
+[222.62 --> 231.42]  is you know when is this actually 2003 4 i'm guessing based on math around 2000 well i'm 21 now
+[231.42 --> 235.64]  and i'm just graduating from college and i remember that september 11th attacks were in fourth grade
+[235.64 --> 242.52]  so it was three years after that okay so i think it was um i think it was closer to 2004
+[242.52 --> 249.60]  um but anyway year is not not that important um so i learned how to program in basic um with a group
+[249.60 --> 254.36]  of friends we would take our lunch period and we would go to go to this teacher's room mr martin
+[254.36 --> 261.04]  his room and we would all leap onto a apple to eat and we would program for the entire period if we
+[261.04 --> 266.60]  weren't watching monty python or whatever um so we had a grand old time and i learned a lot of the
+[266.60 --> 273.36]  basics of of procedural programming um in basic if you don't know you have to give every line that
+[273.36 --> 278.62]  you you type of code has its own line number so you type one and that's your first line and then you
+[278.62 --> 284.86]  you know print high or something and then 10 uh or two you could say two if you wanted to um
+[284.86 --> 292.12]  you know get variable or something so um i learned a lot about how to think like a computer and sort of
+[292.12 --> 298.88]  the basis of my computer computer science knowledge comes from that that time in lunch in lunch period
+[298.88 --> 305.76]  um and i didn't actually start any formal computer science um lessons or any formal computer science
+[305.76 --> 314.66]  until 10th grade when i took um cs1 and 2 at my high school um and we learned java with carol the robot
+[314.66 --> 324.16]  um whom we would program to to go around a grid and collect like buttons or something um so it it was
+[324.16 --> 329.80]  an amazing experience um and i ended up doing um advanced placement computer science my senior year
+[329.80 --> 336.02]  in high school um and i sort of diverged a little bit in college i went to mcgill university for my first
+[336.02 --> 343.32]  year and studied linguistics and philosophy um with an with an a hint of political science um and then
+[343.32 --> 349.66]  transferred to cornell and decided you know computers are amazing let's study them let's study the
+[349.66 --> 355.26]  sociological the psychological the economic impact of of information and the information technologies
+[355.26 --> 359.88]  that we have available to us and so that's sort of what i've been doing since i transferred to cornell
+[359.88 --> 365.50]  wow that's uh that's quite a history man i mean i'm not really even sure what to dive deeper into except
+[365.50 --> 373.18]  for you know i guess uh javas is one maybe sort of somewhat fun thing to begin learning with
+[373.18 --> 380.08]  but maybe also just as hard and not so encouraging um but then at the same time you're kind of where
+[380.08 --> 385.00]  you're at now um you know you're contributing heavily to open source you look at your your
+[385.00 --> 389.84]  punch card on your github profile and it's just like it's straight up green so um i don't even know
+[389.84 --> 395.48]  how you actually do it and do school and do a lot of the stuff you do you say in your free time you
+[395.48 --> 400.34]  help maintain jaco i'm not sure if your free time is all the time or what but maybe we can clear that up so
+[400.34 --> 408.32]  well so i will say um i can give github a little bit of credit um they they will mark a box green
+[408.32 --> 414.34]  even if you only have one commit or you open one issue so you know my minimum on in terms of the
+[414.34 --> 420.98]  github uh punch card is is one thing a day one contribution a day so that's not you know not too
+[420.98 --> 427.50]  substantial um but it you know certainly that punch card keeps me active and keeps me busy and keeps me
+[427.50 --> 433.48]  me motivated which is an interesting um element of that particular feature um but i got into open
+[433.48 --> 444.00]  source in 2010 um do you remember the iphone tracker um which tracker um i forgot exactly what it what it
+[444.00 --> 450.90]  did specifically i it it would track you track where you were on an app that you could install on your
+[450.90 --> 458.02]  phone it would track where you were um and send that information to a server and there was some
+[458.02 --> 464.28]  element of of subversion within this like there was some subversive element to this app such that you
+[464.28 --> 468.98]  didn't necessarily know that you were being tracked maybe it was based on wi-fi address or something like
+[468.98 --> 475.42]  that so the um it was in a news story and maybe in the new york times that i was reading often
+[475.42 --> 481.76]  and so i found github because the source code for this particular app was on github and my very first
+[481.76 --> 487.82]  pull request was a pull request to this objective c app i'd never touched objective c in my whole life
+[487.82 --> 494.82]  um but there was a problem with um with closing i forget exactly what it was but with with closing
+[494.82 --> 500.12]  down a piece of the app um when the app was was when the user went back to the home screen
+[500.12 --> 504.80]  or switched to a different app um so that was my very first pull request in objective c
+[504.80 --> 513.48]  um and that was i guess the my very first pull request being in the fall of 2010 right after i
+[513.48 --> 519.56]  had started at mcgill and i was just getting into a friend of mine um well an acquaintance rather um
+[519.56 --> 526.60]  from rochester where i'm from um it works at apple now and was a huge buff he used he was part of the
+[526.60 --> 532.50]  the team that made cloud the cloud app okay um nick paulson he's sort of been one of my like programming
+[532.50 --> 540.56]  heroes um over the last several years in that he is just like a prodigy um exceptional at what he does
+[540.56 --> 546.92]  um so i sort of got to know him a little bit through a mutual friend and got to know his work
+[546.92 --> 553.58]  and was interested in mac and iphone programming thought you know this will be great but then was
+[553.58 --> 558.28]  a little bit worried because it was so tied to to particular products it wasn't something that i could
+[558.28 --> 563.60]  run anywhere it was if the iphone doesn't exist then my job doesn't exist so i sort of moved away
+[563.60 --> 570.82]  from that platform centric right all right um but yeah so i i found open source to this iphone tracker
+[570.82 --> 576.92]  project and in a way got hooked i would keep going back to github more and more as time went by
+[576.92 --> 585.94]  um and the summer before my junior year which was i guess the summer of 2012 i worked for um several
+[585.94 --> 591.76]  companies but i worked for cornell in the college of agriculture and life sciences communications
+[591.76 --> 596.16]  department not the academic department but in the sort of college communications department
+[596.16 --> 602.42]  and we were rebuilding our site and i'd used jekyll a little bit heard about it and said why don't we
+[602.42 --> 607.16]  use jekyll for this site it'll be great it's all of the uh the information that they needed or
+[607.16 --> 612.94]  you know the requirements for the site um the cals.cornell.edu which is still running jekyll at the moment
+[612.94 --> 619.72]  um all the requirements were were perfect they they fit the bill perfectly for a static site
+[619.72 --> 625.28]  generator so i was like let's use jekyll and we used jekyll and it was kind of painful um and i was
+[625.28 --> 630.58]  writing a lot of plugins and and hacking around um and going through the source code and sort of learn
+[630.58 --> 638.44]  the ins and outs of how jekyll worked through that experience and also the annoyance um of there were
+[638.44 --> 644.28]  string encoding errors and you know the file system watcher was uh directory watcher was still really
+[644.28 --> 651.74]  old and so so there was a lot to be done and i recognized this um and in december i said you know
+[651.74 --> 657.32]  i really like this project and i really want to see it succeed and so i emailed tom press and warner
+[657.32 --> 663.84]  um and he eventually got back to me around christmas time and was like let's skype and so we chatted on
+[663.84 --> 670.06]  skype and um he was like all right i'm going to give you a contributor access to the repo um you
+[670.06 --> 674.18]  seem to know what you're doing um just don't merge any pull requests don't change anything in master
+[674.18 --> 679.92]  yet great so like just go through the issues and so i spent my entire winter break going through the
+[679.92 --> 688.10]  issues on majumbo jekyll um and went through like 300 or 400 in the first week um just sort of going
+[688.10 --> 695.64]  through and closing the ones that were um that we you know had to close because they were past done or
+[695.64 --> 704.32]  um it was a quick fix or whatever and um and actually one day so i was in rochester for that
+[704.32 --> 712.72]  time and um nick coronto um q rush crush yeah um on twitter and github um was also a contributor to
+[712.72 --> 718.24]  to jekyll he had access from you know from early on um and he's in buffalo and buffalo is only about
+[718.24 --> 724.64]  an hour away drive from rochester so i went one night to a buffalo open hack night um and he and i
+[724.64 --> 729.96]  hacked on on jekyll um which was awesome and we closed a lot of issues as a result of that that one
+[729.96 --> 735.04]  night so just sort of got more and more involved and became more and more obsessed with this product
+[735.04 --> 743.96]  um and the potential of static sites um and sort of continued on and i went in january late january
+[743.96 --> 751.20]  of of 2013 i decided to take a semester off from school altogether and went to go work for um sex
+[751.20 --> 757.86]  wunderkinder in berlin they make wonderlist right and um and i loved wonderlist and i love the people
+[757.86 --> 762.76]  that were that work there um so i was like hey you know is there a possibility that i could intern with
+[762.76 --> 767.50]  you and they interviewed me and they were like you should come intern um and so of course yes
+[767.50 --> 776.66]  what have you and so i i went to go intern um and learned a lot there um which you know which was
+[776.66 --> 781.36]  and it was an absolutely amazing experience so you're actually in germany or just did you intern
+[781.36 --> 787.14]  from here in the states i was i was actually living in berlin i lived on chalsea just off of
+[787.14 --> 796.50]  no on chalsea straße um right there in in mitte wow so so i i had a lot of free time because in
+[796.50 --> 802.04]  college i didn't i don't have a lot of free time when i'm in classes um but i have a lot of free time
+[802.04 --> 809.02]  when i'm working nine to five so which is surprising to me um so i was i was you know hacking on jekyll more
+[809.02 --> 816.50]  and more and we released 1.0 by may and so this is what about i guess may of 2013 right yep
+[816.50 --> 821.54]  just about a year ago so you you've kind of had this pattern of impressing people and getting the
+[821.54 --> 828.04]  right connections i i guess pretty much early on and then using that as as a way to bootstrap your
+[828.04 --> 834.08]  skill set and bootstrap your abilities and kind of get in the right places so how much i guess maybe
+[834.08 --> 839.58]  to rewind maybe a tiny bit how much do you know about the earlier days of of jekyll and kind of where
+[839.58 --> 845.38]  it came from and its philosophy and then i guess now uh as of this past may which would be one year
+[845.38 --> 851.80]  since 1.0 basically right so you got 2.0 that just came out yep yeah so i don't actually know
+[851.80 --> 856.76]  very much about the early days i know it used to be called auto blog um so it was originally very
+[856.76 --> 863.90]  focused on blogging um and originally very um more blog centric than than blog aware as it as it now
+[863.90 --> 870.98]  states right um i'm not sure what what tom's original wishes for it were i think he just wanted
+[870.98 --> 874.66]  to write a static blog and didn't like any of the products that were available and so he wrote it
+[874.66 --> 881.66]  um along with along with nick so i'm not really sure about the early days but the philosophy was
+[881.66 --> 888.22]  was in the readme um a blog aware and and in the um github description as well a blog aware static site
+[888.22 --> 894.44]  generator so i sort of took that and based on the issues and how people were using it um molded it into
+[894.44 --> 898.68]  something that i thought people would like yeah let's talk about that a little bit then because
+[898.68 --> 907.94]  um i it almost seems like you're you you've said a couple times a product uh you kind of act even i
+[907.94 --> 913.10]  would you probably would agree with this but um like a product manager like you listen to the crowd
+[913.10 --> 917.98]  or you kind of um you know you go through the like you'd mentioned you know earlier in the in your
+[917.98 --> 923.18]  history with with jekyll that you kind of went through several hundred issues in a weekend to kind of
+[923.18 --> 928.74]  get a heartbeat of where it's at what kind of um a telltale signs i guess did you use that are
+[928.74 --> 934.06]  inherent in issues with jekyll that helped you understand where it was coming from or where it
+[934.06 --> 939.02]  needed to go to be successful for the people that were using it that's a really awesome question i
+[939.02 --> 945.86]  think um when i was going through the issues the biggest of course uh indicator of of a problem or a
+[945.86 --> 951.12]  feature that should be implemented is the sheer number of comments on the um on the issue if there's
+[951.12 --> 957.00]  an issue like for right now there's an issue that stands open um for incremental regeneration uh
+[957.00 --> 962.40]  basically taking a site that's already been built um understanding the current state and then only
+[962.40 --> 968.06]  only changing or rebuilding the pieces that need to be rebuilt which is a you know an np hard problem
+[968.06 --> 972.20]  yeah it's probably a huge saving too for the the disc you're on and just in general this is speed
+[972.20 --> 976.76]  exactly exactly it would be a huge win um and there are a lot of people who've said this would be
+[976.76 --> 980.70]  amazing this would be amazing and of course i mean you know we've just both agreed it would be an
+[980.70 --> 986.32]  amazing feature um the as i was going through the you know several hundred issues i think there were
+[986.32 --> 993.80]  like 623 or something uh open issues when i took when i came on to the project um as i was going through
+[993.80 --> 1000.20]  them depending upon the number of comments and the sort of logic of each argument um i sort of weighed
+[1000.20 --> 1007.38]  them in a certain way um if there was a and and sort of got to know how people were using it based on
+[1007.38 --> 1013.42]  their comments and the issues and the you know occasional site that i would come across um on
+[1013.42 --> 1020.02]  some repository on github um and as that as i sort of got to know a little bit more about how people
+[1020.02 --> 1026.12]  were using the product um i said you know this we should support this or or this is not really how we
+[1026.12 --> 1030.28]  envision this product to be used but maybe we can make a compromise and just make it easily
+[1030.28 --> 1034.56]  extensible so they can build it on their server without having to do all this crazy monkey patching
+[1034.56 --> 1041.40]  etc um and so sort of weighing what are jekyll's primary objectives based on what was in the readme
+[1041.40 --> 1048.64]  versus how are people using it versus how do people want to be using it what is the best sort of
+[1048.64 --> 1053.70]  middle ground between those three elements um and i've i've that that took a lot of thought
+[1053.70 --> 1060.14]  and when you first take over a project or first enter into a project like jekyll that has been
+[1060.14 --> 1068.08]  around for five years um and is is relatively successful um it it took me probably six months
+[1068.08 --> 1075.68]  to figure out exactly what what the trajectory for this product should be i'd imagine even your
+[1075.68 --> 1081.70]  your methodology had to be pretty methodical too to kind of go through comments and i mean maybe
+[1081.70 --> 1085.50]  you're weighing them based on is there a code sample you know how passionate is this person is
+[1085.50 --> 1092.38]  it you know is this person commenting on several other issues as well or kicking up issues um i gotta
+[1092.38 --> 1097.28]  imagine that was a pretty tough job to triage and like you said six months to even get a heartbeat
+[1097.28 --> 1102.88]  that's that's a lot yeah um and it's it part of it is because there's so many people using it and
+[1102.88 --> 1108.04]  and as well it was still being used on github pages so i sort of had to weigh in well how would
+[1108.04 --> 1114.04]  this change github pages is this still secure for github pages um and one of the things that tom said
+[1114.04 --> 1120.82]  to me during our initial chat was um basically like instill the fear in me of change which is very
+[1120.82 --> 1129.24]  interesting um that said jekyll is is good as it is it is good at present it's good um it can be great
+[1129.24 --> 1135.82]  but it shouldn't be but the the the way to get to greatness is not through completely rewriting
+[1135.82 --> 1140.58]  everything that you have um basically to say add on to what you have change the things that
+[1140.58 --> 1147.20]  absolutely must be changed um but don't don't go too crazy basically um so in terms of accepting
+[1147.20 --> 1151.76]  pull requests that made me very skeptical um originally i was like oh you want this feature
+[1151.76 --> 1158.38]  let's you know let's merge it in it'll be great but as long as the ci passed um but as after time
+[1158.38 --> 1164.54]  after some amount of time even the the general idea not even just the code i would scrutinize
+[1164.54 --> 1168.88]  um significantly is this something that is useful to the majority of jekyll users for example
+[1168.88 --> 1177.52]  is this something that is safe to run on on github pages is this something etc etc so um it it has
+[1177.52 --> 1184.30]  taken a long time but but yeah it's it's been i think that's a really key part to to taking over a
+[1184.30 --> 1192.58]  project into to making something cool so what um i guess maybe playing off of if i'm tracking with
+[1192.58 --> 1199.58]  you uh early on tom said you know hey you know kind of toe the line so to speak you know when you
+[1199.58 --> 1206.00]  first took over how is that how is that contrast against how you are now with the project and what
+[1206.00 --> 1213.72]  changed so when we when i initially took over tom was still very much present um
+[1213.72 --> 1220.46]  you know quote unquote so i could i had a tag on on the issues that was at my jumbo and i would email
+[1220.46 --> 1225.20]  him if that got too high maybe 35 issues or something like that and it just needed a decision
+[1225.20 --> 1230.72]  by him it just needed you know hey what do you think about this um is this a good idea bad idea
+[1230.72 --> 1236.98]  so i sort of at the beginning was was really chatting with him a lot um as much as possible
+[1236.98 --> 1243.52]  and getting his idea about what the product and where it should go and as a contrast to now
+[1243.52 --> 1252.38]  i have complete control um i can't imagine so i have complete control in the literal sense in that
+[1252.38 --> 1258.96]  i can change anything but uh there's still some philosophical constraints of course in that i want
+[1258.96 --> 1263.42]  it to be something that people like to use etc um and something that that continues on with the
+[1263.42 --> 1268.70]  tradition of what jekyll has been um if you take a product and you completely modify what it's like
+[1268.70 --> 1273.54]  completely change everything then it's no longer the same thing so existing jekyll sites for example
+[1273.54 --> 1279.80]  i don't want someone to write a site and then for it to immediately break um we've with the 2.0 release
+[1279.80 --> 1286.46]  we did our best to to maximize the number of backwards compatible changes um i think there was like
+[1286.46 --> 1293.14]  maybe one backwards incompatible change and it was we still had a way to to work around it so
+[1293.14 --> 1302.00]  not to mention too you also had github as as uh i guess a uh a customer so to speak um right because
+[1302.00 --> 1306.20]  they're using it for pages and they obviously have a trajectory where they're taking uh pages and what
+[1306.20 --> 1312.46]  they're doing with it not it's obviously a large part of the open source ecosystem where people host
+[1312.46 --> 1318.54]  their docs on there or they host their you know single page kind of here's my repo kind of thing or
+[1318.54 --> 1324.80]  even just simple sites it was a part of what github was doing so how did uh i guess maybe to break the
+[1324.80 --> 1330.60]  seal on this so right now you're an intern also at github so that that kind of had to blossom into even
+[1330.60 --> 1337.82]  new opportunities for you can you talk a little about that yeah so so um my my exact title is a
+[1337.82 --> 1346.88]  as a github pages contractor and so i as a contractor and um i'm working on github pages and trying to make it
+[1346.88 --> 1351.78]  an even better platform um some of the changes that we've released like the site.github namespace
+[1351.78 --> 1357.28]  um there's been there's been a complete rewrite behind the scenes in the back since i've i've
+[1357.28 --> 1364.46]  joined the team um and basically what that's done is allowed me to gain new insights into how
+[1364.46 --> 1369.72]  jackal's being used um in particular i'm working with ben balter who's an amazing guy um really
+[1369.72 --> 1376.80]  brilliant um he recently he graduated from law school um was a wordpress core contributor um
+[1376.80 --> 1384.40]  was a white house presidential um innovation fellow is just a crazy cool guy um and he's sort
+[1384.40 --> 1388.94]  of been my mentor on that project um the guy watching over me making sure i don't mess up too
+[1388.94 --> 1397.06]  many things and uh and because he's focused on government i've gotten a huge i've i've gleaned a
+[1397.06 --> 1406.42]  new or gained a huge appreciation in how um how jackal is being used on on the massive scale or larger scale
+[1406.42 --> 1412.64]  um so if you're if you're a government institution that wants to publish data how can how are they
+[1412.64 --> 1418.72]  using jackal to publish data for example um they're using wordpress and jackal in many many occasions
+[1418.72 --> 1429.18]  to publish open data to um publish process um project open data is a jackal site um and they're
+[1429.18 --> 1435.36]  using that to write policy around open data if you're you know the city of chicago how should your how
+[1435.36 --> 1439.74]  should your data be released and what are the what are the guidelines surrounding that that entire
+[1439.74 --> 1446.74]  project that um every everything within that all the content is written um written as a jackal site
+[1446.74 --> 1453.18]  that's funny that you mention uh ben because you know he also just being a core contributor to
+[1453.18 --> 1459.06]  wordpress uh you know for those who know about jack or maybe this is you're a listener this is the
+[1459.06 --> 1464.18]  first time you're hearing about it i don't know where you've been but um wordpress and jekyll tend
+[1464.18 --> 1470.58]  to fall into the same conversation because it tends to be a fork a choice of left or right jekyll or
+[1470.58 --> 1475.60]  wordpress and you know a lot of the reasons why developers like is one because it's just
+[1475.60 --> 1479.68]  developer centric i think far more than maybe wordpress is but not in a bad way
+[1479.68 --> 1484.40]  wordpress is kind of designed and delivered as a product for different types of people and different
+[1484.40 --> 1489.32]  types of developers but you know the separation of the database and stuff like that so does does
+[1489.32 --> 1493.44]  ben get involved with the product is he involved with jekyll now or is he just kind of advisor to you
+[1493.44 --> 1499.44]  he's he's definitely involved in the product um not as much as as i am you know he's not he's not
+[1499.44 --> 1504.44]  around day to day um but when i have sweeping questions or large questions i would have sweeping
+[1504.44 --> 1511.28]  effects on the product i tend to tend to run them by him um he actually was kind enough to
+[1511.28 --> 1516.52]  invite me out to san francisco um or out to the github headquarters i was interning for visual
+[1516.52 --> 1521.72]  supply company at the time out to the github headquarters one saturday to sort of host a
+[1521.72 --> 1526.44]  jekyll nano summit uh there's a github issue with all of the on jekyll jekyll with all of the details
+[1526.44 --> 1534.88]  of that summit um and we sat in the situation room in the github office um and it was ben and me and
+[1534.88 --> 1541.80]  mislove um who's a great guy and tom came for about an hour um and or an hour and a half and then
+[1541.80 --> 1550.06]  um garen um as well gj tarikian i think um i'm not sure about your name sorry garen uh your last name
+[1550.06 --> 1556.52]  rather um and so we sat around and matt matt uh rogers of course my co-maintener um he was in he
+[1556.52 --> 1563.98]  wasn't able to come physically but but he was he was beamed in via blue jeans um and so we we sort of
+[1563.98 --> 1569.14]  chatted about the the future of jekyll what we wanted for 2.0 what we wanted for 3.0 sort of what
+[1569.14 --> 1578.32]  the future would be um so ben has been a significant advisor um and has has sort of opened up or suggested
+[1578.32 --> 1583.90]  things like a nano summit where we would all meet and chat about it you know in in meet space um that
+[1583.90 --> 1590.10]  i would never have thought to do um so he and you know he scheduled all of that he flew out from dc
+[1590.10 --> 1596.74]  um to get to san francisco just for this um and it was a it was a really cool experience so he's been
+[1596.74 --> 1602.14]  he's been an advisor a serious very serious advisor of this project um partly because i think he sees
+[1602.14 --> 1608.74]  the potential of static site generators and the because jekyll's already on github pages the amazing
+[1608.74 --> 1616.66]  potential for um open data for um open source websites in general um the bootstrap website the
+[1616.66 --> 1623.38]  ratchet websites are both open source and on github pages um and so and the you know it's an
+[1623.38 --> 1629.54]  alternative to to wordpress in many ways because it is very content focused though it's less focused
+[1629.54 --> 1634.90]  about how does my theme look um it's more focused on what are the words that i'm putting out there to
+[1634.90 --> 1643.56]  for the world to see um it he's sort of been an evangelist in many ways of jekyll um and a wonderful
+[1643.56 --> 1650.52]  supporter of it let's pause the show for a minute give a shout out to our sponsor snap snap is a
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+[1698.20 --> 1707.08]  free for 30 days today sign up at snap ci.com slash the changelog i never really thought about the i mean i
+[1707.08 --> 1711.96]  guess it's it seems kind of obvious and logical but i never really thought about the impact to
+[1712.68 --> 1719.40]  increase the level of open source whether it's code content or whatnot that jekyll's actually had the
+[1719.40 --> 1723.72]  impact of i always kind of i guess i really just never thought about it like that because i mean
+[1723.72 --> 1729.40]  we covered chicago's open data about a year ago when they first started to publish a lot of their
+[1729.40 --> 1734.04]  open data and whatnot they're leading the way in a lot of ways for local governments to do that kind
+[1734.04 --> 1740.68]  of stuff and then what you mentioned too about just documentation and then twitter bootstrap and other
+[1740.68 --> 1746.68]  sites that are kind of put out there and they're open right like even even your site your your blog is
+[1746.68 --> 1751.80]  open on github it's you know it's it's kind of like it just seems like a natural thing and it only
+[1751.80 --> 1757.96]  helps uh bootstrap and bolster this open open source ecosystem we all kind of desire to be in
+[1758.76 --> 1766.36]  exactly and one of the main tenants of of jekyll um has always been to to as much as possible and
+[1766.36 --> 1772.52]  github pages helps with this tremendously as much as possible open source your website um yeah let let
+[1772.52 --> 1778.68]  other people learn from it there's a great uh page on the wiki the jekyll wiki called sites and it we
+[1778.68 --> 1784.60]  have this one one rule you post the link to your site but you must post the source for your site as
+[1784.60 --> 1789.00]  well so if your sort if your site isn't open source it can't be on the sites page and there's something
+[1789.00 --> 1795.00]  like a thousand almost a thousand um sites with their sources linked directly next to the to where the
+[1795.00 --> 1800.36]  page is so if you go to see a site that you really like then the source is right there for you to look
+[1800.36 --> 1806.44]  at um so it's a great learning learning tool and anyone who has a site anyone who has a github
+[1806.44 --> 1814.20]  account can edit it so it's it the the jekyll community has been hugely a huge proponent i guess
+[1814.20 --> 1819.08]  of open source and making sure that they can learn from each other the way that open source champions
+[1820.20 --> 1825.96]  before we uh i guess before we turn away from i guess maybe newer topics more topics
+[1825.96 --> 1830.84]  uh i want to ask you a bit more detail if you can share it about the conversation that ben
+[1831.32 --> 1837.24]  had with you when he kind of enlightened you about the overarching ecosystem of jekyll like
+[1837.24 --> 1840.84]  what was that conversation what were some of the things he kind of fed you to help you really get
+[1840.84 --> 1844.12]  the aha moment and and kind of be able to tackle what you've done
+[1846.12 --> 1851.96]  the so it's been sort of an ongoing conversation it's it's you know comments here and there in in
+[1851.96 --> 1859.08]  the github pages repo and on jekyll um as well as at that nano summit but the the overarching or
+[1859.08 --> 1867.08]  sort of the aha moment that i had was um when when ben said two things two things that i really i
+[1867.08 --> 1871.88]  really cared about one was um be the pull request that you want to see in the world which is really
+[1871.88 --> 1877.08]  cliche but really awesome and goes along with the um let's make jekyll the coolest thing that that
+[1877.08 --> 1883.16]  it can be not because we want it but because everyone wants it um and and because everyone
+[1883.16 --> 1888.60]  can contribute to it if they if they wish um and the second thing is make it as simple as possible
+[1888.60 --> 1896.04]  absorb complexity as much as possible that is that is the way to a good product um and that i've sort
+[1896.04 --> 1902.36]  of you know github itself um the organization and all of its employees champion that that concept
+[1902.36 --> 1906.36]  if you're not you don't make your your user interface simple if you don't make the process
+[1906.36 --> 1910.20]  simple then people aren't going to use it people aren't going to do do what you're asking them to do
+[1910.84 --> 1915.88]  so um he's really molded this product into something that is as simple as possible
+[1916.44 --> 1924.12]  um and that's you know sort of where it's been an ongoing conversation but um sort of where we get that
+[1924.12 --> 1931.96]  that that heightened sense of simplicity from i guess since uh this might be a good time to talk about
+[1932.36 --> 1937.80]  um you know i guess earlier um i'm almost forget which month it is sometimes but i guess it's
+[1937.80 --> 1942.20]  earlier this month because it's it's the the last day of the month we're recording on may 30th by the
+[1942.20 --> 1947.32]  way um because the show doesn't always come out the same day we we actually record it but earlier this
+[1947.32 --> 1955.80]  month um you released um jekyll 2.0 but you know kind of flipping that on its head last year you were
+[1955.80 --> 1963.72]  releasing 1.0 a lot's changed you got a lot of newfound vision because of this history and and
+[1963.72 --> 1969.48]  all that what is what are some of the core things that change from jekyll 1.0 to jekyll 2.0 and then
+[1969.48 --> 1974.84]  also i guess to maybe make sure that the those who have been using jekyll for the last five years
+[1974.84 --> 1982.36]  don't have breaking sites right so to answer the first half the question what has changed um we
+[1982.36 --> 1988.68]  introduced a lot of things that that a lot of new concepts and a lot of um support for technologies
+[1988.68 --> 1994.04]  that people were using so the two main concepts that i really enjoyed working on and really enjoyed
+[1994.04 --> 2001.16]  uh releasing i was really excited to release were um collections and uh yaml front matter defaults
+[2001.72 --> 2011.00]  um so collections allow you to define a series of documents um all collected into one one entity as it
+[2011.00 --> 2016.76]  were um so one of the reasons or the reason that we originally wrote this um this feature was
+[2016.76 --> 2024.52]  actually because during the jekyll nano summit mislov said i'm writing for zepto the api documentation
+[2024.52 --> 2031.72]  i want to have one page per document or rather one page per method in the or function in the api
+[2031.72 --> 2039.08]  and i don't want to have to mangle jekyll you know monkey patch it up the wazoo in order to actually
+[2039.08 --> 2047.40]  write write write out individual pages for um for my um uh excuse me form for the api
+[2048.44 --> 2055.72]  and i don't want to mixing up the pages um or posts and i don't want to use posts for it etc etc
+[2055.72 --> 2061.40]  so he wanted a lot more customization um he wanted to be able to take the take the the documents and
+[2062.20 --> 2068.60]  import them into collection or into pages as well so include them um and write them out so he needed
+[2068.60 --> 2074.44]  them to be to some insurance to make sure that they were processed beforehand etc he wanted them to be
+[2074.44 --> 2080.36]  to be custom um he didn't want to necessarily have to have them write out as a file um so collections
+[2080.36 --> 2088.12]  natively or in the base most basic sense um you have a series of documents um that contain data yaml
+[2088.12 --> 2095.80]  front matter um and content and that's it um you can optionally set up um each individual document to
+[2095.80 --> 2100.76]  have an output file um that just goes into forward slash collection name forward slash document name
+[2100.76 --> 2108.76]  um and that will output an individual file if you want that um but the idea is is sort of data um
+[2109.40 --> 2114.68]  plus content mixed together in a nice way that isn't this isn't just yaml can you give an example of it
+[2114.68 --> 2121.16]  is that i'm thinking is it like if i were publishing a podcast so to speak would it be like a podcast is
+[2121.16 --> 2125.88]  that what you mean where it acts like a page or acts like a post does by normal traits but you kind
+[2125.88 --> 2133.24]  of give it its own name space and it's its own kind of model so to speak right so you use collections
+[2133.24 --> 2137.32]  for anything that isn't necessarily date sensitive although you can use dates and collections if you
+[2137.32 --> 2146.28]  want to um with when we were first setting up the jekyll site for example we had each docs docs page set up in as
+[2146.28 --> 2153.72]  a post it was just like 2010 01 01 here's my post uh or here's my docs page and we set it up as a post
+[2153.72 --> 2158.84]  because we wanted to make sure it was processed before the pages write them out into pages etc um
+[2158.84 --> 2166.84]  and have an individual an individual html file generated for each docs page as well so when we were
+[2166.84 --> 2173.24]  doing that it it was creating a collection of items but in the only only collection that we had which was
+[2173.24 --> 2179.32]  posts um you can think of posts as a date centric collection okay um of of documents and each document
+[2179.32 --> 2185.96]  is called a post in that case um so what we wanted to do is take that idea and generalize it not make
+[2185.96 --> 2193.16]  it so date centric people were kept asking hey can we remove the dates from our posts of course in a in
+[2193.16 --> 2199.80]  in a blog you every post should have a date um that's the point of a blog it's it's a chronologically
+[2199.80 --> 2205.96]  ordered um series of content so we said well if we're not going to take dates out of out of posts
+[2205.96 --> 2214.52]  let's you know create some more generalized concept um that's based on posts but um allows you to um
+[2215.16 --> 2222.28]  to collect various items um and write them out to individual files or just just have that data um so
+[2222.28 --> 2229.56]  an example is if we were to rewrite if jekyll 2.0 were up on getup pages um i would take the all the
+[2229.56 --> 2236.76]  docs pages that we have for jekyll at the moment in site docs and i would move them into a collection
+[2236.76 --> 2241.80]  called docs they would probably exist the same way that they do right now but they would exist within
+[2241.80 --> 2249.32]  this site.docs collection this would allow me to iterate over them if if there were maybe two pages
+[2249.32 --> 2254.68]  that i wanted to have on the same output page so two or two documents that i want to have this on the
+[2254.68 --> 2261.00]  same page or if i wanted to list all the pages in like a site map um then i don't have to say okay
+[2261.00 --> 2269.88]  site.pages like four four page and site.pages in liquid um and i explicitly remove all of the css pages
+[2269.88 --> 2276.76]  or then you know index.html pages that aren't docs i have this one subset of the site in this underscore
+[2276.76 --> 2284.52]  docs folder that i can i can iterate over that i can output that i can etc um as its own entity
+[2284.52 --> 2290.52]  so i guess you can think of collections as a subset of the content of a of a site in a way
+[2290.52 --> 2295.88]  and this is just one of the many changes and also i guess it's probably smart to drop a caveat in there
+[2295.88 --> 2302.38]  that uh the collections is kind of unstable it's in it's it's out there but it's not finalized it may
+[2302.38 --> 2308.72]  change right right um and the other thing that we that we did or the major major feature was yaml
+[2308.72 --> 2313.54]  front matter defaults so if you kept writing that you wanted the layout to be article or layout to be post
+[2313.54 --> 2319.92]  um in all of your posts or all of your pages in a specific uh subdirectory now all that you have
+[2319.92 --> 2326.54]  to do is add a few lines to your your configuration file and you have layout post set for all of the
+[2326.54 --> 2331.46]  posts or pages that you specify um right now yaml front matter defaults don't work with collections
+[2331.46 --> 2338.30]  which is a bummer um but we're we're working on getting it for the 2.1 release which should happen soon
+[2338.30 --> 2347.26]  so i'm trying to think of where we can go where we can go next i know i got a couple of things on my
+[2347.26 --> 2350.10]  my list that i want to mention but um
+[2350.10 --> 2358.76]  i guess maybe i don't exactly struggle to to really i mean i guess maybe to some degree i do
+[2358.76 --> 2363.44]  but you know what's the sweet spot for jekyll you mentioned earlier with cornell working there and how
+[2363.44 --> 2368.16]  you had this list of requirements and jekyll was perfect but that was way back you know several
+[2368.16 --> 2374.32]  years ago at least it seems to be um you know what is the sweet spot for jekyll i know we talked a
+[2374.32 --> 2378.40]  little bit about documentation but for those who are listening out there that aren't using jekyll
+[2378.40 --> 2385.42]  what would make them want to use it why should they use jekyll like it's not a cms it's not a blog
+[2385.42 --> 2392.92]  it's evolved right right i would say for two for two reasons i always stick with jekyll the first
+[2392.92 --> 2399.94]  reason is that i can use git i can use my lovely version control system um to version my content
+[2399.94 --> 2405.74]  not just the theme or whatever that i have um but i can version my content which is amazing i can submit
+[2405.74 --> 2411.88]  a pull request for my content um and that's that's hugely powerful um the second reason i'd say is
+[2411.88 --> 2417.70]  because it's a static site generator and this is true of any static site generator um the sweet spot
+[2417.70 --> 2424.16]  is really in page load time um there have been a couple people who run um jekyll sites on their own
+[2424.16 --> 2432.56]  servers maybe like a t1 small or something um on on aws and they never their server never goes down
+[2432.56 --> 2438.20]  whereas if you have wordpress you run into problems with memory or you run into problems with the database
+[2438.20 --> 2442.90]  load being too high and so your database just cancels connections um or you can't connect to
+[2442.90 --> 2448.18]  it when the when someone loads your site so by stripping all of this out and just having an html
+[2448.18 --> 2453.68]  file that nginx or apache says oh here's your static file here like here's the content that you need
+[2453.68 --> 2462.62]  amazing um it it reduces any problems you would have with scalability to a ridiculous degree so i know
+[2462.62 --> 2469.44]  i'm kind of uh hopping on one of those things you mentioned there because the changelog is actually
+[2469.44 --> 2475.66]  a wordpress site and we're on digital ocean we have a pretty beefy server at digital ocean so we like
+[2475.66 --> 2480.88]  it i mean it's it's great but for a bit there we had issues with our site toppling over and getting
+[2480.88 --> 2487.00]  database connect connection issues because basically mysql would uh you know bubble up to the point where
+[2487.00 --> 2490.72]  it would take all the memory and then apache couldn't run anymore so it couldn't connect to mysql
+[2490.72 --> 2498.28]  or something to that degree it was just a mess and essentially we kind of did uh essentially what
+[2498.28 --> 2503.42]  i would probably consider a reversal right we kind of did what would eventually just become cached files
+[2503.42 --> 2509.76]  right but you know we used uh wp cache to to cache all of our files which essentially is exactly what
+[2509.76 --> 2514.66]  jekyll helps you produce in the first place which is a static site essentially take this dynamic site
+[2514.66 --> 2521.88]  and make it static based on cache times and you know um time stamps and stuff like that so it's
+[2521.88 --> 2527.90]  that's the one that i can actually really kick myself in the butt for but at the same time i love a lot of
+[2527.90 --> 2533.26]  what wordpress gives but you know i never really um moved over to jekyll because of like multi-author
+[2533.26 --> 2537.66]  support and stuff like that what do you say to people when they talk about multi-authoring and just
+[2537.66 --> 2546.60]  i guess publishing tools that make the job a little easier so one thing that i've i followed intensely
+[2546.60 --> 2551.24]  and actually that i think ben originally told me about was prose and i'm sure you've heard of this
+[2551.24 --> 2557.94]  but prose is sort of the the silver bullet um or is intended to be at least the silver bullet
+[2557.94 --> 2564.56]  um publisher for jekyll sites online i've seen this yeah you you connect to your your github account
+[2564.56 --> 2571.22]  you go to a um repository that you have a site and you make edits and you commit them and it's
+[2571.22 --> 2577.92]  great um unfortunately sort of development on prose has slowed down significantly as it's not being used
+[2577.92 --> 2585.92]  as much by the development seed team um these these amazing guys down in um down in dc were the ones who
+[2585.92 --> 2589.92]  originally created it i think they were the ones who originally created the landing page for health
+[2589.92 --> 2597.04]  healthcare.gov using jekyll um and so they've created what they of replacement basically for this
+[2597.04 --> 2602.24]  for the authoring tools that that wordpress gives you so one of the things that i've always loved about
+[2602.24 --> 2607.98]  wordpress is that it's super simple to go in and make a change and then you know you click you hit save
+[2607.98 --> 2614.72]  it puts it in the database and you're done um what prose aims to do is is emulate that process but for
+[2614.72 --> 2620.02]  jekyll sites using version control um so when you instead of hitting save you hit commit um instead
+[2620.02 --> 2627.04]  of of you know going to a specific instead of going to your site slash wp-admin you go to
+[2627.04 --> 2635.00]  prose.io slash you know your your site uh repo slash the path and then you edit it commit it you're done
+[2635.00 --> 2641.56]  you said it's is it uh slowing down on development right now is that what you said at the moment it's
+[2641.56 --> 2645.74]  it's not really it's under active development but it's it's a little bit slow at the moment
+[2645.74 --> 2650.48]  um and that's just because it's there's no immediate pressure um if there's anyone who's
+[2650.48 --> 2657.42]  really interested in in um you know having it continue can you continue to uh to be developed
+[2657.42 --> 2663.06]  um and to to see it grow i'm sure that the development seed guys would be interested in hearing
+[2663.06 --> 2667.76]  from you um it's all in javascript and it all runs on github pages with the exception of
+[2667.76 --> 2674.54]  something called gatekeeper which is the um heroku app that does all of the oauth with github
+[2674.54 --> 2680.54]  we'll have to either get them on the show or or uh find a way to i guess put some light on that i
+[2680.54 --> 2684.94]  mean that's i'm glad you mentioned that because it's it's under development but maybe they're just
+[2684.94 --> 2689.60]  are they just not feeling like oh it's really needed because it's not being used by a lot of
+[2689.60 --> 2695.00]  people is that the is that the concern now it's being used by by a pretty good chunk of people but
+[2695.00 --> 2700.00]  it's it's because it doesn't they they originally developed it so that they could write healthcare.gov
+[2700.00 --> 2706.16]  right in a way you know the majority of healthcare.gov the content based uh piece of healthcare.gov
+[2706.16 --> 2709.46]  the things that don't need to be dynamic basically the marketplace for example would have to be dynamic
+[2709.46 --> 2715.04]  but um you know just you know faqs and that sort of thing don't have to be dynamic so they originally
+[2715.04 --> 2722.56]  wrote it so that anyone um could could have this wonderful interface for changing files um and so
+[2722.56 --> 2727.28]  people aren't using it as much and the development is slow because they aren't using it anymore
+[2727.28 --> 2733.98]  yeah i feel like i almost feel like there's i know you're in school and you've got a busy life
+[2733.98 --> 2738.92]  and maybe this isn't you know the only thing you wanted to do in your development career but i kind of
+[2738.92 --> 2744.02]  feel like maybe you might inherit uh not so much another project but at least kind of bring that into
+[2744.02 --> 2749.76]  the fold so to speak because it's so closely aligned with um you know this publishing way for
+[2749.76 --> 2754.06]  jekyll that makes it a little easier because one of the concerns that i think we tend to have is
+[2754.06 --> 2759.22]  it's okay for us as developers to like you know use git and push via the command line we're very
+[2759.22 --> 2763.28]  comfortable with those kinds of things but it's when we start to invite our business analysts and
+[2763.28 --> 2767.98]  other people that are not always so fluent with it who may just want to go in make the change like
+[2767.98 --> 2773.88]  you said and click save they want that experience they don't want to you know have a certain ruby
+[2773.88 --> 2778.64]  installed or you know do i use rvm should i use how do i version my you know how should i use my ruby
+[2778.64 --> 2782.74]  and then you start to bring all these questions into somebody like forget it uh can we just use
+[2782.74 --> 2787.66]  wordpress uh wordpress works or you know that might be an example of the conversation you might have so
+[2787.66 --> 2792.64]  i feel like there's an opportunity here maybe to to bring that into the fold and make it part of your
+[2792.64 --> 2800.02]  your uh your work with jekyll and github pages absolutely um and i you know we need a couple a couple
+[2800.02 --> 2805.38]  more things for example previews um for a pull request i've always wanted for github pages to build
+[2805.38 --> 2812.90]  pull requests if you can build a pull request then you can see the resulting site um on github servers
+[2812.90 --> 2818.08]  immediately you don't have to wait um or you don't have to clone it down and deal with ruby installation
+[2818.08 --> 2823.82]  um one of the pain points for jekyll is definitely installing ruby um it's it's not supported technically
+[2823.82 --> 2829.90]  on windows but it is um you know it's not too hard to get it up and running um but it's still a bit
+[2829.90 --> 2835.52]  difficult so there are a couple more elements that i have to have to come and come into uh into the
+[2835.52 --> 2842.74]  fold here but once those are in place um if they do come to fruition then um then it would it would
+[2842.74 --> 2848.46]  be a pretty easy easy fix i think pros is trying to take the intimidating um somewhat intimidating
+[2848.46 --> 2853.84]  interface that that github has with issues and discussions and all this business um and make it
+[2853.84 --> 2859.36]  as simple as possible and as friendly as possible um so they and and because it's jekyll specific they
+[2859.36 --> 2864.70]  make ready and will front matter for example um a piece of cake so they just have individual form
+[2864.70 --> 2870.26]  items that you can specify so your date should be a date and your title should always be um you know
+[2870.26 --> 2874.24]  they give you a text box for your title and a drop down for your layouts and all of that stuff so
+[2874.24 --> 2880.32]  um so you know there are just a couple more pieces and then and then i think we can make a bit we can
+[2880.32 --> 2887.58]  make the switch so a mutual i guess a mutual friend of ours had uh two questions i guess one of you
+[2887.58 --> 2890.90]  you've kind of mostly answered but if there's anything that maybe you left out that you want
+[2890.90 --> 2895.20]  to mention you're welcome to but so to the questions brandon mathis is the mutual friend i'm
+[2895.20 --> 2900.60]  talking about and we'll talk a bit more about your involvement with him and octopress and that kind
+[2900.60 --> 2903.50]  of stuff but one of the things he wanted me to ask but i think we've already answered this to some
+[2903.50 --> 2909.04]  degree so feel free to uh riff as needed but he said you know this is verbatim what he said parker
+[2909.04 --> 2913.66]  came out of nowhere and impressed tom and i both enough to become significant parts of both of our
+[2913.66 --> 2918.70]  projects jekyll and octopress as the projects uh get him to talk about how so i think you've kind
+[2918.70 --> 2923.76]  of entered that but is there anything of the how that he's talking about that maybe you didn't leak
+[2923.76 --> 2931.86]  so the that's that's a great question the the way that i got involved with jekyll is that i emailed tom
+[2931.86 --> 2937.34]  tom was this is this was at the time the ceo of github um someone that i didn't think i was actually
+[2937.34 --> 2942.54]  going to be in contact with ever he was not replying to issues um but i emailed him and i emailed him
+[2942.54 --> 2948.70]  three times um over the course of like eight eight or nine months um and finally in december he replied
+[2948.70 --> 2956.52]  so i think the key is to um sort of take that leap of faith as well as and i i got in contact with
+[2956.52 --> 2960.20]  with brandon because i was following him because i loved octopress and i was using octopress for my
+[2960.20 --> 2965.36]  blog um so i was following him and i was like hey do you need any help with octopress i tweeted at him
+[2965.36 --> 2969.74]  and he was like yeah i would love some help with octopress and then we just sort of kept going with
+[2969.74 --> 2976.62]  that um and uh so so it's you know reach out if you're interested is sort of the key um i think
+[2976.62 --> 2982.20]  that the main bottleneck for finding uh added maintainers is the is to see their interest um
+[2982.20 --> 2988.30]  are you interested in in devoting the time to to maintain something uh and to make it better um in
+[2988.30 --> 2993.44]  in a more meaningful way than just submitting a pull request here and there um so i'd say persistence
+[2993.44 --> 2999.50]  and just make that make that initial step okay so maybe dovetailing off of that then his second part
+[2999.50 --> 3004.68]  of that question was uh and i had the same question so it's just kind of from both myself and brandon
+[3004.68 --> 3010.04]  um and we'll talk you know for those listening and thinking what the heck is octopress we'll talk
+[3010.04 --> 3014.60]  about it here in just a second but uh the second part of that question uh a series of questions is
+[3014.60 --> 3017.76]  do you have any and i think you kind of touched a little bit just now on this but
+[3017.76 --> 3023.88]  do you have any advice for those out there who uh are you know similar to you you know interested
+[3023.88 --> 3028.10]  interested in technology but want to get started with open source software and don't really know
+[3028.10 --> 3035.56]  where to start or really how to break through i suppose i think the the main barrier to entry is to
+[3035.56 --> 3042.48]  know how how to contribute right so from from my perspective go go to the project that you're using
+[3042.48 --> 3048.06]  the most maybe you're using rails um rails is a very intimidating project to first start off with
+[3048.06 --> 3054.54]  um maybe go to jekyll go to jekyll find an issue that you care about um and find find an issue that
+[3054.54 --> 3058.38]  you care about or that you think might be a relatively quick fix um even if you don't know the
+[3058.38 --> 3064.42]  code doesn't matter whether you've looked at the code or not see that then then clone down the repo
+[3064.42 --> 3069.04]  and look through the code a little bit try to familiarize yourself with how this particular product
+[3069.04 --> 3076.32]  does what it does um once you've done that um then then try to pinpoint exactly where the issue
+[3076.32 --> 3081.88]  is happening um and or at least where the issue might be might be occurring um change that submit
+[3081.88 --> 3088.76]  your pull request um as best as possible add tests you know do sort of do do your dues as it were or
+[3088.76 --> 3096.40]  um and in order to see that that would be merged um and submit an issue um or submit a pull request
+[3096.40 --> 3101.70]  for that um if that's sometimes even that is too much um you know to to pick an issue that you
+[3101.70 --> 3108.52]  might be able to handle and and um change it up or and you know fix it so maybe what you should do
+[3108.52 --> 3114.20]  instead is find an issue that you're that you think might be um easy enough to do look through the code
+[3114.20 --> 3119.70]  a little bit um and just write a comment and say like hey um i'm interested you know i'd love to help
+[3119.70 --> 3126.22]  fix this um i'm not really sure where to start um maybe here here or here um and sort of sort of
+[3126.22 --> 3131.28]  indicate that you're thinking about it and that you'd love to help um i'm i can i write way more
+[3131.28 --> 3137.28]  comments that i than i you know than commits that i write um so i'm happy to to help someone through
+[3137.28 --> 3142.38]  through that process um i love i love to see newcomers to jekyll it's the best thing in the world
+[3142.38 --> 3148.48]  um to see people who have never um submitted a pull request or who made their github profile yesterday
+[3148.48 --> 3154.98]  to only to read an issue or to submit a pull request so for people to you know find find that
+[3154.98 --> 3158.56]  repository that or that project that you're interested in find an issue that you think you
+[3158.56 --> 3163.02]  might be able to handle write a comment or just fix it um and submit a pull request if the pull
+[3163.02 --> 3167.36]  request isn't the way that they want that they want to handle it uh the maintainers will say this
+[3167.36 --> 3171.82]  isn't really how we want to handle it but here's how we would prefer um and then you can implement
+[3171.82 --> 3177.52]  that um switch and switch things around so um it's it's more a matter of like just throwing
+[3177.52 --> 3186.20]  yourself into the process and and at every turn offering your help and the time let's pause the
+[3186.20 --> 3189.98]  show for just a minute give a shout out to our sponsor top towel now we've been working with top
+[3189.98 --> 3194.80]  towel for about a year now almost a year now and we thought it would make sense to circle back
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+[3201.34 --> 3206.22]  two to three percent of the engineers who apply make it past their strict elite engineering process
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+[3239.40 --> 3246.14]  it takes head to top towel.com slash developers that's t-o-p-t-a-l.com slash developers to get
+[3246.14 --> 3252.50]  started tell them the changelog sent you i know a lot of the times when folks come on the show when
+[3252.50 --> 3257.74]  we ask them which we'll ask you here in a bit like the call to arms is usually just help us triage
+[3257.74 --> 3264.04]  issues especially a lot of high traffic projects with issues that you know have just lots it's you know
+[3264.04 --> 3268.56]  sometimes it's just can you comment back to somebody can you just help me you know keep
+[3268.56 --> 3272.74]  the heartbeat alive so that they don't think we're a bunch of jerks because we're busy writing code or
+[3272.74 --> 3277.60]  busy with day jobs and this is like you in your spare time or your free time so you say you know
+[3277.60 --> 3282.98]  so it's like it's kind of like that and then even i like what you said too about um not just saying hey
+[3282.98 --> 3288.30]  how can i help it's i've got an idea about this particular problem i've got a couple ideas on how i can
+[3288.30 --> 3293.86]  solve it or what i think might work can you give me some guidance because they'll respond easier to
+[3293.86 --> 3300.66]  to at least you know some legwork versus just hey i'm here to help what can i do right pick up a broom
+[3300.66 --> 3312.58]  you know exactly exactly so let's um let's talk um let's talk about uh your involvement not only with
+[3312.58 --> 3317.76]  jekyll but then octopress this is like uh we've gotten through this pretty much you know this whole show
+[3317.76 --> 3322.24]  without really mentioning the relationship between these two and i don't want to do it any ill justice
+[3322.24 --> 3326.70]  because i haven't kind of riffed with brand much lately about the project and where it's going but i know
+[3326.70 --> 3332.38]  you're involved in both now can you kind of give a you know the listeners kind of a mention of how
+[3332.38 --> 3340.24]  these two projects align and where you see them fitting so octopress at the moment um in its current form
+[3340.24 --> 3347.62]  in imathist slash octopress is sort of a framework around jekyll um a series of rake tasks usually uh
+[3347.62 --> 3355.14]  generally um that makes it easier to work with jekyll um it comes with a built-in um classic theme
+[3355.14 --> 3361.26]  that allows you to you just go rake install and it installs this theme which is beautiful um i'm sure
+[3361.26 --> 3368.90]  you've seen it on a lot of sites um and it's the idea of of octopress is really to make it as easy
+[3368.90 --> 3374.02]  as possible to get started blogging with jekyll um when you run gem install jekyll you have nothing
+[3374.02 --> 3382.10]  available to you um you have now um since 1.0 i think or maybe 1.2 um you have jekyll new and jekyll
+[3382.10 --> 3387.36]  new and then you give it a path will install some you know very basic very very run-of-the-mill um
+[3387.36 --> 3393.84]  or you know bare bones skeleton sort of site um but if you're if you're looking for like if you're
+[3393.84 --> 3398.98]  some erlang programmer or something and you just you don't have the time to set up a ui you don't
+[3398.98 --> 3404.90]  want to write any html you just want to write what like write a blog post about something um then
+[3404.90 --> 3412.04]  all that you have to do is clone down the repo run rake install run rake new posts and then give it a
+[3412.04 --> 3418.54]  title and then boom you're off um and it's the coolest thing um it handles new posts new pages
+[3418.54 --> 3426.44]  deployments um previewing generation all of that stuff um one of the key points as well is that it
+[3426.44 --> 3432.16]  it has this one one task called rake isolate and one of the the points that you mentioned earlier
+[3432.16 --> 3439.00]  about jekyll um is or i guess that we talked about at uh briefly um was this idea of incremental
+[3439.00 --> 3445.00]  regeneration right now jekyll just says i'm gonna when you run jekyll generate or jekyll build rather
+[3445.00 --> 3449.96]  it just takes your whole site and rebuilds it um and that's not that efficient um especially if
+[3449.96 --> 3458.28]  it's the same in 98 of the files so um if you have a massive site maybe of like 1200 posts or something
+[3458.28 --> 3463.80]  you've been writing for a long time um i know matt gemmel uses octopress and he has you know i think
+[3463.80 --> 3468.08]  close to a thousand posts or he did you know a couple months ago um i'm sure he has over a thousand
+[3468.08 --> 3474.00]  posts now um he's a great writer but it just took so long for those posts for that site to regenerate
+[3474.00 --> 3479.46]  that he said you know i can't do this so um octopress gives him the tool called rake isolate which gets
+[3479.46 --> 3486.18]  rid of all the posts except for the one that he's working on and basically just regenerates that one
+[3486.18 --> 3492.22]  um the entire site but just with that one post so it removes the 999 other posts that he doesn't
+[3492.22 --> 3497.36]  need to be looking at because he's not working on it right now um and then you um you run rake
+[3497.36 --> 3502.00]  integrate and it puts all the posts back and then you run rake gen deploy and he deploys a whole new
+[3502.00 --> 3506.34]  thing once it's once it's done so is that using git magic to do that or is that how's that working
+[3506.34 --> 3512.70]  rake isolate um basically just takes it takes all the posts except for the one that you're working on
+[3512.70 --> 3519.54]  moves it into a separate directory um that jekyll won't look at and then runs jekyll build or jekyll
+[3519.54 --> 3523.68]  served depending on what you're doing so it all that it does is it just moves the files
+[3523.68 --> 3528.38]  um and then moves it back when you run rake integrate right right it's it's it's an amazing
+[3528.38 --> 3534.64]  idea um and it's such it's so so you know dead simple that it's surprising that that no one else
+[3534.64 --> 3540.26]  has done it but that's sort of a unique piece to to octopress so octopress is sort of this framework
+[3540.26 --> 3544.92]  that makes blogging with jekyll or writing sites with jekyll as easy as possible and gives you the
+[3544.92 --> 3553.44]  the ui or the uh the site um uh theme and all this stuff to work with immediately did the projects
+[3553.44 --> 3560.66]  so it's it's almost um even still now even after hearing that it's still hard to really see
+[3560.66 --> 3567.32]  where they you know where they separate i understand that it's kind of built on top of
+[3567.32 --> 3571.88]  jekyll but is it a point that they'll ever merge they'll ever share the same functionality
+[3571.88 --> 3577.22]  or essentially tackle the same kinds of problems or is that the reason why you're involved in both
+[3577.22 --> 3582.44]  projects kind of help keep them in parallel and keep them kind of working together well
+[3582.44 --> 3588.38]  i'm definitely i'm definitely involved with both um in order to make sure that they're going along
+[3588.38 --> 3593.82]  parallel in in parallel um i'm way more involved in jekyll just because jekyll has no i mean matt's
+[3593.82 --> 3600.32]  working on it as well but matt's um matt's really busy so um i'm the one that's sort of taking care of
+[3600.32 --> 3606.04]  of the immediate day-to-day sort of stuff with jekyll um and because no one else is doing that i'm sort
+[3606.04 --> 3611.32]  of taking more of a back seat or more of an advisory role i guess um i look over pull requests that
+[3611.32 --> 3619.62]  that brandon puts up on octopress repos um and helping with problems as needed um but in terms
+[3619.62 --> 3625.80]  of the future there's definitely the possibility that they would merge um the octopress as we know
+[3625.80 --> 3631.98]  it today would not be the octopress of tomorrow in any sense um brandon's doing amazing work um on
+[3631.98 --> 3637.98]  the octopress organization on github and you can take a look at um where he's taking octopress and
+[3637.98 --> 3642.96]  splitting it off into a gem and this gem is just about functionality it's just about sort of
+[3642.96 --> 3650.06]  extending the basic jekyll generation stuff into um generating new posts based on like erb templates
+[3650.06 --> 3655.80]  that sort of thing um and he also created something which i'm really excited about called octopress inc
+[3655.80 --> 3662.92]  um and octopress inc is is an extension to jekyll that allows you to to write isolated themes
+[3662.92 --> 3668.44]  so i have a gem for example called i don't know parker's site or parker's theme or something
+[3668.44 --> 3674.22]  and i can publish that on ruby gems and you can say gem install parker's site or parker's theme or
+[3674.22 --> 3679.68]  whatever and use and it uses octopress inc such that when jekyll says all right i'm going to go
+[3679.68 --> 3686.06]  build this site um it uses the css the javascript that i've written um and it's it's all separate from
+[3686.06 --> 3692.64]  my own content files so what octopress inc has done is basically taken the concept of wordpress themes
+[3692.64 --> 3698.56]  where the theme and the content are completely separate um and applied that to static site
+[3698.56 --> 3703.98]  generation as jekyll knows it so i'm sort of i'm sort of there to to make sure that everything's
+[3703.98 --> 3708.62]  going along at the same time and to help with like the jekyll 2.0 major bump for example that's a
+[3708.62 --> 3712.24]  fantastic teaser for an upcoming conversation i'm sure we'll have with brandon i know that
+[3712.24 --> 3718.56]  i mean anytime we ever mention and i try to get brandon to share as much as he can but i know he's it's
+[3718.56 --> 3723.26]  he's been so close to 3.0 for a while now and i know that a lot of the listeners and a lot of the
+[3723.26 --> 3729.24]  readers of our weekly email and and the blog and anytime we publish any sort of teaser of the upcoming
+[3729.24 --> 3734.06]  octopress 3.0 they're always like all over it you know everybody's like waiting with bated breath kind
+[3734.06 --> 3738.84]  of so to speak so i'm sure that that was a perfect teaser for to tee it up for brandon when he comes on
+[3738.84 --> 3745.58]  the on the show um i guess let's go ahead and tail off the call then i know there's probably
+[3745.58 --> 3750.34]  i know you got things you got to do and we could talk probably for days but because you do a lot of
+[3750.34 --> 3758.06]  cool stuff but let's let's um let's talk about the future of of jekyll let's tail into that and i think
+[3758.06 --> 3762.98]  you kind of know where i'm going with it but where is jekyll going how does it align with github pages how
+[3762.98 --> 3769.50]  does it align with github uh github pages api what can you tell us about uh not just jekyll 2.0 which
+[3769.50 --> 3775.48]  came out early this month but the the future and beyond that's a really awesome question um the
+[3775.48 --> 3783.04]  future of jekyll is is the simplest but also simultaneously most powerful static site generator
+[3783.04 --> 3792.94]  that you can find um for for anyone um isolating isolating it from um the expectation that
+[3792.94 --> 3800.56]  you must know ruby is is paramount to that objective um the jekyll of tomorrow is a jekyll that
+[3800.56 --> 3808.20]  is is easy to install um is really easy to use um doesn't hopefully has as few bugs as possible
+[3808.20 --> 3815.50]  if none or if not none rather um and and does the really amazing things like incremental regeneration
+[3815.50 --> 3825.08]  and has themes um the way that octopress inc act price inc um displays them um and in order to get
+[3825.08 --> 3831.72]  there we just need a lot more manpower um we just need people who are interested in in taking a stake
+[3831.72 --> 3837.32]  in jekyll and saying this is a really cool project um let's make it what i want it to be um and when
+[3837.32 --> 3842.54]  they hit a pain point to say yeah i could write a plug-in for this that monkey patches jekyll to the
+[3842.54 --> 3847.86]  you know how i want it but why don't i take that change and contribute it upstream and see if
+[3847.86 --> 3854.78]  they're interested um and to to sort of have that constant conversation with how am i using jekyll
+[3854.78 --> 3860.82]  and how is jekyll right now um is sort of what's gonna what's gonna push jekyll forward that might uh
+[3860.82 --> 3865.48]  that might lead us right into the call to arms i guess for for jekyll because one of the things we
+[3865.48 --> 3871.54]  ask on this show is some some decent questions at the end that's our common questions i guess um but we
+[3871.54 --> 3875.40]  always ask you know what's the call to arms how can the community step up and help out so maybe you
+[3875.40 --> 3881.20]  kind of mentioned it but maybe you can kind of go a little deeper yeah so the the way that we would
+[3881.20 --> 3886.26]  love for you to get involved is is to be involved in the conversation the issues there's an irc channel
+[3886.26 --> 3895.22]  um pound jekyll there is um there's so much available um there's also a jekyll dash help repo um so if
+[3895.22 --> 3900.54]  you're if you're if you find that you have an extra even 10 minutes a day to watch that repo and
+[3900.54 --> 3905.76]  answer questions to help with the ecosystem or the the users who are are struggling with this or
+[3905.76 --> 3911.48]  you know hey i installed jekyll but i can't seem to get this to work can you help me yeah sure let me
+[3911.48 --> 3916.10]  just take a quick look at your repo most jekyll problems are diagnosable you know in five minutes
+[3916.10 --> 3923.68]  um unless it's some crazy issue with you know your gem environment or something so um to be to be
+[3923.68 --> 3930.08]  involved and to do what you can to um either contribute code um or contribute ideas just open
+[3930.08 --> 3934.14]  an issue that's like hey this is a really cool idea that i had when i was just writing my site
+[3934.14 --> 3939.60]  what do you think about it um and then we can discuss it um to you know involve your friends
+[3939.60 --> 3945.24]  maybe uh if you have a if you have a pal who's also using jekyll or a colleague to have them you know
+[3945.24 --> 3949.68]  get a github profile they don't already and contribute their ideas um to be part of the
+[3949.68 --> 3954.48]  conversation um there's obviously no way that you're you're going to be involved if you aren't
+[3954.48 --> 3959.30]  a part if you aren't a part of it but um it's relatively easy to just watch the repo i promise
+[3959.30 --> 3967.84]  like maybe 12 to 15 notifications a day i try to stay uh busy but but not too overwhelming um
+[3967.84 --> 3975.54]  so you know just sort of contribute where you want to where you can um of course triaging issues is
+[3975.54 --> 3980.70]  super helpful but i handle every issue that comes through um so you're pretty active i was always
+[3980.70 --> 3986.48]  when i was just kind of prepping for this conversation i was like wow you are on on the
+[3986.48 --> 3992.38]  ball you know and not just like hey thanks you know like uh maybe a text expander or something like
+[3992.38 --> 3996.90]  that or some sort of you know snippet that you kind of put in it's like you know you really look and
+[3996.90 --> 4002.50]  you re-quote and you ask for clarification you kind of give more feedback you're you know i i really
+[4002.50 --> 4006.52]  wonder when you say you know you do this in your free time like you must have a lot of free time so
+[4006.52 --> 4012.56]  are you really going to school are you two people that kind of thing i've definitely slacked off on my
+[4012.56 --> 4017.52]  on my classwork enough uh to to make sure that that the amount of time that i have on github is
+[4017.52 --> 4024.30]  substantial so i will uh apologize to my professors on behalf of my time on jekyll um but that i mean it's
+[4024.30 --> 4030.06]  taken a long time to to get there but um i find that if you if you're kind and if you're if you're
+[4030.06 --> 4034.60]  you give constructive feedback then people will be kind in return and that's there's so much
+[4034.60 --> 4040.06]  animosity in the open source open source uh community that to yell at people is not useful
+[4040.06 --> 4044.72]  yeah um and it's it's sort of counterproductive to the idea of let's build something awesome together
+[4044.72 --> 4049.32]  we've we've talked about that a little bit on the on the show before just kind of like the not so nice
+[4049.32 --> 4055.30]  responses from people and just the attitudes because it i mean we talked about burnout on the show before
+[4055.30 --> 4061.82]  with lee hambley and capistrano and some other projects that have come on and people who uh lead
+[4061.82 --> 4067.06]  those projects have expressed just burnout and you can't always uh help your attitude sometimes you
+[4067.06 --> 4072.18]  know let's maybe talk to you in two years and see if you feel the same way um but i mean it does it does
+[4072.18 --> 4077.82]  happen um regarding the future of jekyll there's one question i i do have as a dovetail off of what you
+[4077.82 --> 4083.86]  said before you said um you know you need more people you need more manpower so to say um
+[4083.86 --> 4089.00]  how does that how does that play into github that's what i keep coming back to because
+[4089.00 --> 4094.90]  it's obviously a part of pages they obviously have the money to employ people are they a part
+[4094.90 --> 4099.40]  of these conversations to make sure that jekyll thrives and jekyll grows and jekyll is awesome
+[4099.40 --> 4108.48]  they aren't as much i will say um they're at the moment it's sort of a uh in maintenance mode pages is
+[4108.48 --> 4113.36]  i'm i'm certainly building new features um and making it you know as as great as i can
+[4113.36 --> 4120.82]  um but there's they aren't building as many new features into into pages certainly um and what
+[4120.82 --> 4126.92]  they what they primarily want is to see pages be something something that makes you know documentation
+[4126.92 --> 4133.58]  really really great software documentation so if i if i'm bootstrap how can we make sure that
+[4133.58 --> 4140.98]  jekyll and that pages are well suited to your um to your needs for that particular project
+[4140.98 --> 4147.28]  so to make sure that that jekyll is as general as possible is sort of what um and not too complicated
+[4147.28 --> 4152.72]  of course um is sort of what ben's been doing as a part of sort of as an acting entity of github
+[4152.72 --> 4158.34]  and also in his own his own uh wishes he'd like to see something that's simple and easy to use
+[4158.34 --> 4165.26]  rather than something that's super complicated um or super specific so they aren't they aren't that
+[4165.26 --> 4171.12]  heavily uh involved in in jekyll but they've certainly supported me in huge ways um whether
+[4171.12 --> 4178.88]  it's just like random boxes of goodies um or you know hey um we want this feature added to jekyll can
+[4178.88 --> 4187.76]  you write it for us we'll pay you well um i guess the last question is a is a fun one that i think you
+[4187.76 --> 4194.00]  may have touched on at least one hero right uh but who are your you know you can name one you can name a
+[4194.00 --> 4198.40]  few it's we don't really have any sort of roles here but uh if you had to name some programming
+[4198.40 --> 4206.56]  heroes who would they be um i definitely have a bunch um and they've i i'm i tend to take to heroes
+[4206.56 --> 4212.62]  pretty quickly um because they're someone that i can look up to and and it sort of gives me a goal
+[4212.62 --> 4219.18]  um to set so i'm starting off in in middle school when i was learning basic um the guy's name was dan
+[4219.18 --> 4227.50]  lavoi um later it was nick rao um who now works at modcloth as a software engineer um really brilliant
+[4227.50 --> 4232.10]  guy who he was the one who originally taught me how to use rails um and got me interested in ruby
+[4232.10 --> 4238.00]  so he's the reason that i i know ruby at all um leaf walsh was a um an acquaintance in in high school
+[4238.00 --> 4242.90]  who is just ridiculously brilliant um he got a joint degree at stony brook suny stony brook
+[4242.90 --> 4248.60]  um in like theoretical mathematics and computer science um and then of course they're the you
+[4248.60 --> 4256.10]  know they're the i guess more general or more normal uh answers of um people like tom um and
+[4256.10 --> 4261.02]  chris wanstroth who wrote um and pj who wrote github initially and just sort of wrote it in their
+[4261.02 --> 4267.50]  spare time um people like ben who are amazing product people but also or or sort of um product
+[4267.50 --> 4274.40]  managers and can can develop vision um in addition to writing amazing code um and so and and people
+[4274.40 --> 4281.92]  from my time at sex wonderkinder as well um um hans hasselberg um uh ryan levick um uh
+[4281.92 --> 4288.56]  chus or joseph bach um he's a great guy and chad fowler as well um they're all like just amazing
+[4288.56 --> 4296.70]  people that i've i have looked up to um and have tried to try to be more like yeah several uh in
+[4296.70 --> 4303.62]  there i definitely share similar remarks but uh this has um this has been well i guess probably
+[4303.62 --> 4307.40]  one of our longer shows in the last several shows i think we just kind of got on some riffs there and
+[4307.40 --> 4313.24]  i want to pull you off and i'm glad that you were uh such a good trooper for the show parker so um
+[4313.24 --> 4317.16]  thanks so much for having me i know we we wanted to get you on the show for a while and i'm just you
+[4317.16 --> 4323.72]  know very excited about what you're doing so keep up the great work um however we can be of a support
+[4323.72 --> 4330.30]  to you and to help uh to help you and matt kind of keep this project you know at the forefront and
+[4330.30 --> 4335.90]  just knowing that it is the the next generation and the the way to be when it comes to uh static
+[4335.90 --> 4340.14]  site generation and the future of it and you know octopress we hope to have brain on the show
+[4340.14 --> 4345.12]  in the near future about that so i want to just you know you got our support however however we can
+[4345.12 --> 4351.68]  give it so um great thank you so much uh same to you as we uh to close out the show i want to give
+[4351.68 --> 4358.80]  another shout out to our awesome sponsors rackspace uh snapci and top towel uh for supporting the show
+[4358.80 --> 4364.54]  they do an awesome job to help make sure we stay around as part of just helping uh parker do his
+[4364.54 --> 4370.38]  awesome work and help him stay around so uh i also want to plug our new partner to div shot uh who's
+[4370.38 --> 4376.66]  helping pave the way for really awesome static web hosting for developers uh and they're hosting jekyll too
+[4376.66 --> 4380.36]  so we'll give you more information about that for the members and if you're not a member yet you
+[4380.36 --> 4384.82]  should check it out but uh that's it for this week we'll be back next week and until then
+[4384.82 --> 4388.48]  uh parker and i will say goodbye so bye-bye bye-bye
+[4388.48 --> 4390.48]  you
+[4410.36 --> 4420.48]  you
+[4420.48 --> 4421.48]  you
+[4421.48 --> 4423.48]  you
+[4423.48 --> 4427.48]  you
+[4427.48 --> 4429.48]  you

Buckets CMS on Node.js_transcript.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,549 @@
+[0.00 --> 14.32]  welcome back everyone this is the change log and i'm your host adam stankowiak this is
+[14.32 --> 19.62]  episode 132 and on today's show we have dave canada joining us to talk about buckets
+[19.62 --> 26.92]  it's his project he's building on assembly it's a cms built on node.js great show today for you
+[26.92 --> 31.68]  our sponsors for the show are code ship digital ocean and top tile we'll tell you a bit more about
+[31.68 --> 36.74]  digital ocean and top tile later in the show but code ship hosted continuous deployment service
+[36.74 --> 41.40]  that just works you can easily set up continuous integration for your application in just a few
+[41.40 --> 46.74]  steps and automatically deploy when all your tests pass code ship has great support for lots of
+[46.74 --> 52.26]  languages test frameworks as well as notification services they easily integrate with github or
+[52.26 --> 59.46]  bitbucket and can deploy to cloud services like heroku aws nojitsu google app engine or even your
+[59.46 --> 64.50]  own servers setup takes setup takes just three minutes get started today with their free plan
+[64.50 --> 71.54]  and make sure you use our code the changelog podcast again the changelog podcast to get a 20 discount
+[71.54 --> 78.34]  for three months on any plan you choose head to code ship.io slash the changelog and tell them the
+[78.34 --> 89.12]  changelog sent you and now on to the show all right we're back this is uh adam i got david on the line
+[89.12 --> 95.06]  as well jared on the line jared say hello hey everybody that uh sort of a bum voice this time
+[95.06 --> 102.20]  around so we'll keep your talking to a to a minimum but david canada is with us he uh hey everyone
+[102.20 --> 106.34]  he's no stranger to the show david you had to remind me sorry that that you were on the show
+[106.34 --> 113.12]  way back when that's okay i think what was it five years ago or that was a very yeah let me go find
+[113.12 --> 122.64]  the episode number uh you were on episode 30 and that was like forever ago july 27th 2010 there you go
+[122.64 --> 128.90]  that's that's a long time ago and you were talking about sentia at the time too so yeah that jogs i
+[128.90 --> 135.12]  remember it was like i forget like a couple months after i first moved to california and i've been here
+[135.12 --> 140.24]  just about four or five years now gotcha and so we're having you on the show today because uh
+[140.24 --> 148.88]  you're building an open source cms on node.js with mongodb you're building it on assembly it's totally
+[148.88 --> 153.30]  a side gig so full-time you're a ux designer at google so you've got some you know you've got some
+[153.30 --> 158.18]  history and the world knows some and probably uses several pieces of software that you've helped build
+[158.18 --> 164.40]  or uh or uh or prop up and whatnot but that's what we have on the show today uh i think it was about
+[164.40 --> 168.02]  two months ago two or three months ago we reached out and you weren't quite ready to come on the show
+[168.02 --> 175.18]  and now you're i think you're at what uh 0.7.0 now is that right yeah yeah i mean it's still super early
+[175.18 --> 182.32]  in the project but um but yeah it's i gotta tell somebody about it at some point yeah so i guess for
+[182.32 --> 186.92]  those who don't uh know who you are and a bit more than what we just explained about you how do you
+[186.92 --> 192.52]  introduce yourself i i say in terms of like the whole title thing i just say designer generally
+[192.52 --> 200.28]  um although you know for the past five years or so i i definitely write way more code than i spend in
+[200.28 --> 207.16]  photoshop or anything like that now but um i identify as a designer i started in print design
+[207.16 --> 214.76]  uh got into the web started doing flash you know sort of all types of sites and then
+[214.76 --> 222.36]  sort of around that time about five years ago i did jq touch which was a javascript library for
+[222.36 --> 228.54]  creating native like experiences on the iphone and then that just sort of led into a whole sort of
+[228.54 --> 235.34]  avalanche of doing mobile work and i think a lot of designers especially like web designers sort of
+[235.34 --> 241.62]  fell down that path of getting into mobile what year was that i remember being a jq touch user back in
+[241.62 --> 250.36]  the day it was uh i remember being amazed by it too thanks i think that was like six or seven years
+[250.36 --> 258.14]  ago that first came out and uh and yeah it it blew me away like in terms of you know i just made this
+[258.14 --> 264.88]  thing and i had you know sort of vaguely seen and used open source software but i just thought you
+[264.88 --> 270.62]  know what am i going to do i'm not going to sell this thing but um but i think it's powerful so i so i put it
+[270.62 --> 276.38]  out there and um you know this is like a little bit of a humble brag but i was just kind of blown away
+[276.38 --> 282.34]  to see you know thousands of people starting to use it didn't that transition to something else at
+[282.34 --> 289.26]  some point it went from jq touch to to something else i believe a paid product or so uh two things i i
+[289.26 --> 299.08]  basically uh sent you which was called extjs then hired me uh and uh we formed a small team to work
+[299.08 --> 304.72]  go and sent you touch and that um that was like commercial for like a month and then it became
+[304.72 --> 311.86]  free and all that it's you know some corporate stuff and then um uh and then jq touch itself was
+[311.86 --> 320.40]  renamed to jqt at some point because somebody like got angry for some reason crazy trademarks
+[320.40 --> 326.06]  trademarks were you gonna ask jade before i jumped in there i was just gonna say i think that it just
+[326.06 --> 331.20]  it struck a chord there was a big need or at least we thought we had a need for those types of
+[331.20 --> 336.22]  toolkits at that time right when mobile just started kind of exploding it's funny these days
+[336.22 --> 343.10]  because you still see them yeah all the time there's ionic now there's uh that one came out from the
+[343.10 --> 351.90]  bootstrap uh team like uh ratchet i guess um but yeah it's it's interesting so tell us about buckets
+[351.90 --> 357.04]  i was gonna say this is uh it's being built on assembly let's dive into this product and what's
+[357.04 --> 364.86]  yeah so i mean i guess even before assembly like buckets is just a thing i've wanted to do for a long
+[364.86 --> 372.88]  time i mean i i think i i would imagine the majority of web designers have either wished for a better cms
+[372.88 --> 381.18]  or tried to build one or you know it's definitely not a new issue or problem um but i just
+[381.18 --> 389.06]  as i as i as i left sentia about two years ago um i had spent pretty much my entire time there
+[389.06 --> 398.64]  doing this sort of front-end heavy uh javascript and css you know framework and um was kind of eager
+[398.64 --> 405.26]  to to get back onto doing some server-side logic doing just building apps uh on both sides
+[405.26 --> 413.96]  and it was sort of just a thing i toyed around with the idea and i um about a year ago i was a
+[413.96 --> 422.04]  designer in residence at benchmark a uh a vc firm here and they i i sort of told them about it and
+[422.04 --> 428.50]  and what i wanted to do with it and they expressed interest um possibly raising a seed fund or a seed
+[428.50 --> 435.20]  round for it um and so they said uh just get started just you know build the thing or at least like
+[435.20 --> 441.04]  throw together a prototype and uh we'll see where it goes and after about a month of working on it i
+[441.04 --> 448.44]  just kind of like threw in the towel because it was it was kind of uh isolating to to just work on it
+[448.44 --> 455.92]  you know day in day out uh here out of my house and not sort of be sharing it and i the goal was always
+[455.92 --> 464.28]  to open source it but it just you know it had to run first anyway uh so it was uh matthew smith
+[464.28 --> 472.48]  uh whale on twitter who uh mentioned assembly and i saw that about six months ago and i thought well
+[472.48 --> 479.14]  i love the idea i've always just kind of loved the idea of mixing uh some sort of commercial incentive
+[479.14 --> 486.50]  with open source and i think just like without a doubt something to be done in that space um
+[486.50 --> 493.36]  and so i thought this would be a great place to just throw buckets on there and see how people
+[493.36 --> 498.82]  respond because you know i'd already basically given up on it or not even given up on it but just
+[498.82 --> 506.74]  you know i had already burned myself out on it um and so in the beginning it was really just to seek
+[506.74 --> 511.22]  you know some sort of validation of the idea like is this something people would be interested
+[511.22 --> 515.58]  a lot of the especially when you're getting started especially when it's something like this
+[515.58 --> 520.42]  that's sort of homegrown to a degree and and as you mentioned there quite possibly something you
+[520.42 --> 525.62]  might even give up on if it's not something that other people can sort of encourage you in um you
+[525.62 --> 530.46]  sort of need a tribe to to sort of validate whether it's something you should pursue or not like you
+[530.46 --> 536.48]  said it's a cms isn't a new idea um some of the questions i have are you know
+[536.48 --> 541.06]  why this over others that are out there what is this going to do better than some of those but
+[541.06 --> 547.98]  that'll come a bit later but sure i i think if we can camp out this quickly on like taking it to
+[547.98 --> 552.08]  assembly um i want to camp out there just for a little bit because it's it's sort of being built
+[552.08 --> 557.10]  by the community as they say being built by the assembly community um and that validated the idea
+[557.10 --> 561.22]  so what was about how long ago was that and what was the initial reaction you got
+[561.22 --> 567.32]  first let's can you give us uh jennifer everybody just a general thing of what assembly is and then
+[567.32 --> 574.12]  then go into the details so assembly um and i think they're still pretty early on themselves and so
+[574.12 --> 579.76]  they're still figuring out but the sort of high level concept is you know you can create projects
+[579.76 --> 587.00]  that are either open source or just like open source uh where anybody can contribute and that ranges from
+[587.00 --> 596.56]  development like directly on github or uh design mocks or marketing even or copywriting and you
+[596.56 --> 603.94]  basically you have bounties which are similar to github issues uh you say oh we need uh this feature or we need
+[603.94 --> 610.08]  to be able to sign in with facebook and then as the uh project creator or as the core team you're
+[610.08 --> 617.66]  actually able to assign a value um to that bounty and assembly sort of makes these values uh they use
+[617.66 --> 624.90]  sort of like a cute coin system but ultimately it translates to uh just a percentage of of the
+[624.90 --> 632.92]  product's potential uh profit at one point so um as pro as assembly products start making money
+[632.92 --> 639.72]  they start to calculate a monthly profit fee and just simply distribute that every month
+[639.72 --> 648.70]  to all of the coin holders based on how many they have that's a very sort of uh good thing but it's
+[648.70 --> 654.94]  still even hard for me to grasp because it feels like it feels like it's potential like you said then
+[654.94 --> 659.00]  you're not really sure how much it's going to be it feels like it's sort of upon the sky at least to me
+[659.00 --> 664.06]  but that's why i'm not on assembly contributing to anything but it's it's it's a neat thing for those
+[664.06 --> 671.38]  who have like one thing i liked about that though of just outside of you know the idea of not just
+[671.38 --> 675.28]  contributing code like if you go to the different bounties that are there you can sort them by
+[675.28 --> 679.38]  all these different things and if we sort yours by different tags you've got back end front end
+[679.38 --> 684.36]  development simple challenging product you know copy marketing that's kind of neat because like if i'm a
+[684.36 --> 689.90]  marketing guy that wants to jump into a product or i'm trying to you know get some notoriety some
+[689.90 --> 694.36]  authority for my name or i'm just starting out you know i can hop on assembly and start
+[694.36 --> 700.72]  throwing ideas at different products here and and land a team and have ownership is what you're saying
+[700.72 --> 708.02]  with that those coins on bounty or on assembly and and like you said i think like i've always been sort of
+[708.02 --> 715.72]  a general product kind of guy i like design i like marketing i i like copywriting and i've always sort of
+[715.72 --> 721.02]  enjoyed both ends of it whether you're doing the actual hands-on work or more of a directing like
+[721.02 --> 726.78]  sort of a creative directing position or something um and so like i think a great example is just our
+[726.78 --> 733.70]  logo um and that's actually a good thread i like that one too a bucket yeah uh with a sort of a little
+[733.70 --> 739.06]  smiley face kind of built in and that was something i mean it's simple and it's it's straightforward
+[739.06 --> 747.76]  and uh a friend john peele made that um but uh it was something i i just kind of had it had a very
+[747.76 --> 753.28]  rough idea i think if you saw that thread i i actually just grabbed a photo off of google image
+[753.28 --> 759.04]  search literally like took four minutes um drew some eyes on it and said here's kind of like the
+[759.04 --> 765.00]  concept i'm thinking and somebody illustrated and and with a great style to it and i sort of
+[765.00 --> 769.86]  wanted the yellow background and everything but but ultimately it came came out as something that
+[769.86 --> 776.24]  was just super simple super friendly and that's all i wanted it to be you know and it was it was
+[776.24 --> 780.26]  perfect you can see the you can see the riffing too back and forth between you and the contributors
+[780.26 --> 784.94]  and whale who you mentioned earlier yeah um you know sort of the iterative process too through
+[784.94 --> 792.22]  this bounty slash kind of github issue ish kind of thing and see you can sort of see the morphing and
+[792.22 --> 797.34]  and even the collaboration that's i like how nita came out too i think it's a it's a good direction
+[797.34 --> 804.88]  but let's let's jump on sort of getting to assembly um and what that did for for you and your inertia
+[804.88 --> 813.90]  towards buckets yeah i mean again i think just having people say oh hey that that would be nice uh is is a
+[813.90 --> 821.54]  huge thing you know because uh especially in the like uh creating a product that is so overdone or done
+[821.54 --> 829.64]  so many times um like even within the node community which is way you know way newer way younger than
+[829.64 --> 835.84]  php or anything like that even within the node community there's already four or five sort of
+[835.84 --> 843.00]  prominent and still they they don't really compare in terms of uh scope to wordpress or expression engine
+[843.00 --> 850.74]  or drupal yet but um but still there's there's competition kind of everywhere and so you know when
+[850.74 --> 857.38]  you're going to throw your hat in the ring so to speak and and try to do your own uh yeah you first
+[857.38 --> 863.26]  went okay is there somebody out there who would like to see it done differently or that kind of thing
+[863.26 --> 871.24]  yeah when i searched for node cms on google what there's several that came up but one that looked
+[871.24 --> 876.80]  like it was decent and i sorry if i haven't seen this one before um i'm not hanging out in the
+[876.80 --> 881.10]  the community too much but enough to know it's there and what's going on there keystone js was
+[881.10 --> 886.42]  one of the examples and they got a decent design they've got you know a decent product direction in
+[886.42 --> 893.58]  terms of what is happening with it so like you said it's for sure that's new they terrify me uh no no
+[893.58 --> 901.32]  it seems super cool um and same feature set too it's node and mongo so yeah it's it's a similar
+[901.32 --> 909.08]  kind of feel i think yeah um and then just to throw out the others like uh well there was one
+[909.08 --> 914.92]  called calypso but it seems like that one died down and that was never uh i want to be nice on
+[914.92 --> 922.18]  the show but like it was never 404 right now too pretty it was not like you know like um but then
+[922.18 --> 926.82]  there's there's ghost as well which ghost is tremendously beautiful you know kickstarter project
+[926.82 --> 933.30]  and it's very beautiful well designed and and actually a very similar architectural setup to
+[933.30 --> 938.92]  what we have um which kind of happened by happenstance i swear i didn't copy them but um
+[938.92 --> 944.18]  but the interesting thing was always that you know i knew about ghost when i started buckets but
+[944.18 --> 950.70]  i i actually wanted to do something that was kind of completely the opposite in some ways uh so ghost
+[950.70 --> 956.48]  basically came like looked at something like wordpress and said okay this has grown to the point where it's
+[956.48 --> 964.14]  not even really great for blogging anymore uh so let's like strip it back down to to what made it
+[964.14 --> 970.42]  great for blogging whereas with buckets i wanted to create a tool that was more for these big websites
+[970.42 --> 974.92]  you know when you're like a web designer and you have to do a website for a university or something
+[974.92 --> 981.52]  it's not so much about okay does it give you that single panel uh text area with a nice preview
+[981.52 --> 990.08]  it's more about is the content structured uh correctly and and how easy is it for the um
+[990.08 --> 997.48]  end user to just input content right yeah it's a there's pros and cons on on both sides that that's
+[997.48 --> 1002.68]  that's where i was wondering too what you might think um of ghost versus buckets because you know
+[1002.68 --> 1007.42]  people tend to take a blog software and try to make it more than it is
+[1007.42 --> 1013.90]  and then you'd sometimes try to take a cms and make it a blog software and a cms and they end up
+[1013.90 --> 1019.50]  doing too many jobs and not enough focus on the end user and the content because that's yeah so part of
+[1019.50 --> 1024.56]  the huge piece of being a cms too is actually managing the content not just theming or design
+[1024.56 --> 1030.30]  it's it's got several different totally and i look at it as like i not to say that we'll never have
+[1030.30 --> 1039.60]  a full page full screen markdown editor similar to ia writer or something like that uh but that's
+[1039.60 --> 1046.64]  definitely not going to be a place that we head soon i see it like in in terms of like the experience i
+[1046.64 --> 1051.46]  want to deliver and i think you bring you bring up a good point in that like cms's have have two
+[1051.46 --> 1058.40]  audiences which is sort of the content administrators and then the designers the web designers right um and
+[1058.40 --> 1064.34]  so for the content people i want it to feel like tumblr um and that was like sort of a big inspiration
+[1064.34 --> 1071.18]  for buckets was this idea that you go into tumblr you have these five sort of types of posts you can
+[1071.18 --> 1081.12]  create which are uh text video chat photo and link and they're just extremely well designed well tailored
+[1081.12 --> 1087.60]  uh sort of input fields for these types of content and then when you're working with a system like
+[1087.60 --> 1093.70]  expression engine or drupal or one of these bigger cms's you define content into these like sort of
+[1093.70 --> 1101.46]  distinct blobs in a similar way uh but usually the ux just isn't even anywhere close to that tumblr
+[1101.46 --> 1107.56]  experience right right and so that was sort of that's sort of the driving force for me on the
+[1107.56 --> 1114.36]  the content creator side is to to make it feel like that to make more of a tumblr than a medium
+[1114.36 --> 1121.74]  so i guess to those who because we've had john nolan on the show before to talk about ghost
+[1121.74 --> 1127.72]  for those who think they might want to use ghost versus something else how does this differentiate
+[1127.72 --> 1133.42]  from blogging software i guess in the in the bigger picture it's full-on cms where what is some of the
+[1133.42 --> 1142.26]  vision for um the cms pieces so a couple things one like you create buckets and you define the fields on
+[1142.26 --> 1150.10]  those buckets so you know you could create a recipe and every you say every recipe has a cover photo a
+[1150.10 --> 1159.18]  title a uh list of ingredients and a uh steps let's say you know and you can sort of fine tune those
+[1159.18 --> 1166.14]  fields and and uh manipulate those fields and i and i want those fields to be sort of very rich at the
+[1166.14 --> 1173.28]  when you say manipulate you mean like validation um validation just sorting uh most fields come with
+[1173.28 --> 1178.64]  a good amount of options but but there's still a lot of work to be done in that area but essentially
+[1178.64 --> 1185.80]  that's the idea as opposed to you know every item in your cms has a title a body and an excerpt
+[1185.80 --> 1192.70]  um it's much more define it yourself and so you come up with these you end up with these forms that
+[1192.70 --> 1198.96]  are just sort of very specific to your content that's helpful too like you said earlier on
+[1198.96 --> 1204.84]  whenever the designer the builder of this throws it over the the fence to the end user and says okay
+[1204.84 --> 1210.76]  university here's your site they don't have to you know give a ton of docs it's like go here and
+[1210.76 --> 1216.42]  create and exactly the form exactly like at the end of the day that that side of it if you look at
+[1216.42 --> 1223.80]  all social networks or you know of a certain type that manage content you know people use them every
+[1223.80 --> 1230.80]  day and and sign up for them by themselves and and figure them out right and and that essentially is
+[1230.80 --> 1236.96]  what a cms is like if you look at something like pinterest it gathers photos and and puts them into this
+[1236.96 --> 1242.70]  nice layout but you know that's essentially a theme that grid that you get to the content that you're
+[1242.70 --> 1249.96]  adding in and there's no reason that a cms can't provide that same ease to to sort of get into it
+[1249.96 --> 1258.98]  um yeah let's pause the show for a minute give a shout out to a sponsor digital ocean simple cloud
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+[1307.20 --> 1313.56]  digital ocean.com right now to get started and back to the show so we're talking about some of the
+[1313.56 --> 1318.12]  philosophies around it where and i think you might even say we're getting there we're not quite there
+[1318.12 --> 1324.32]  yet where exactly are you you know we know you're at 0.7.0 but what does that mean what yeah so the
+[1324.32 --> 1329.86]  features that are built out now and like admittedly development has slowed down the past couple weeks
+[1329.86 --> 1336.40]  i think partly due to uh just getting into some stuff at at the google and and sort of putting
+[1336.40 --> 1344.48]  into time uh but also um i've been sort of i guess just mentally kind to trying to figure out the next
+[1344.48 --> 1351.40]  place well i'll go back so at first like the the first two months or so the development was very heavy
+[1351.40 --> 1358.46]  because i was i was sort of focused on that uh the admin panel which is sort of my you know what i
+[1358.46 --> 1367.00]  am best at focusing on uh in terms of like ui ux the javascript uh architecture uh the whole thing is a
+[1367.00 --> 1373.30]  single page app which again compared to a lot of systems out there is a lot different and which which
+[1373.30 --> 1380.92]  also means it's like sort of crazy fast um when you're using the admin so i i worked on a lot of the
+[1380.92 --> 1388.28]  sort of interface which is still very basic but um kind of rich in in a lot of ways and then
+[1388.28 --> 1393.80]  i worked on uh search for a little while that actually hasn't even shipped yet i've just kind of
+[1393.80 --> 1398.44]  kept that off to the side because i'm i'm still not 100 sure i want to go with elastic search
+[1398.44 --> 1404.66]  but um but anyway it was sort of just this you know creating features creating the template
+[1404.66 --> 1410.72]  parser um which is sort of based on handlebars right now and those types of things and to the
+[1410.72 --> 1418.16]  point where it can now create a very basic website and and we have maybe six or seven different types
+[1418.16 --> 1424.40]  of uh fields that you can add on to each bucket so now i'm i'm sort of hitting a point where
+[1424.40 --> 1431.28]  i know that eventually i do want to offer this as a as a sas offering uh the more i think about it
+[1431.28 --> 1439.98]  the more i think i i am in no place in terms of uh sys ops to be um sort of kicking off managed
+[1439.98 --> 1445.56]  instances of buckets you know because it is node and it does have to run in a cloud environment
+[1445.56 --> 1453.70]  and so sort of the clearer and and obviously much simpler path for buckets to take is is to become sort
+[1453.70 --> 1460.06]  of multi-tenant and to allow you know multiple not just multiple users which it which it already
+[1460.06 --> 1465.56]  supports but multiple accounts that are all creating their own websites and i'm i've been
+[1465.56 --> 1471.72]  sort of been wrestling with this idea for the past two weeks because i on one hand i want the system
+[1471.72 --> 1477.60]  and in some ways even though it's very different in terms of being node the architecture i want it to
+[1477.60 --> 1485.26]  feel like wordpress or text pattern or those older php ones where okay i install it on my computer i can
+[1485.26 --> 1492.96]  run it at localhost i move it to a server i run it over there um where if we switch to this sort of
+[1492.96 --> 1502.52]  platform uh approach obviously a lot of that ease sort of goes away um it's a hard line to follow too
+[1502.52 --> 1507.46]  when you make that twist because it's going to impact you know you work full-time right so you got
+[1507.46 --> 1511.92]  little time and so the time you do spend you want to you want to spend on progress not exactly
+[1511.92 --> 1517.84]  now you're seeing exactly why i've been uh twiddling my thumbs a little bit the past week but
+[1517.84 --> 1523.40]  maybe you can come to some of these decisions here on the show i don't know but to me i feel like
+[1523.40 --> 1527.56]  it comes down to figuring out your target audience right like and that's sort of a question i have
+[1527.56 --> 1532.92]  next is like you know when you ship this when it's ready at whatever stage it's at the 1.0
+[1532.92 --> 1540.04]  who is you know who's your short list of the kind of people that you're going to see god is it people
+[1540.04 --> 1545.82]  on squarespace is it people using wordpress as a php developers yeah tinkering with javascript and node
+[1545.82 --> 1552.20]  because i'm you know because of the ubiquitousness of it lately and not lately but just the the trend
+[1552.20 --> 1556.92]  of the upper trend of the last few years towards javascript and you know is it people that hack on
+[1556.92 --> 1561.94]  ruby that make their own stuff like who's your customer it's definitely web designers okay and
+[1561.94 --> 1571.08]  like a hundred percent i can say initially people with html and css uh experience and who want to use
+[1571.08 --> 1579.72]  html and css um the the idea being that i've just always sort of thought content management uh and
+[1579.72 --> 1586.00]  especially when you look at these web content management systems like you know i don't think a
+[1586.00 --> 1590.14]  lot of them handle that content creation side well like we were talking about sort of on the user
+[1590.14 --> 1597.08]  experience angle um but then also on the web designer angle or web developer like grabbing
+[1597.08 --> 1605.12]  that content and then like putting it into a page should be extremely easy yeah um and and i you know
+[1605.12 --> 1613.30]  i've always personally just cringed when i see like uh wordpress templates using raw php um things like
+[1613.30 --> 1617.84]  that but so you mentioned wordpress is there anything about wordpress that you've used before that sort of
+[1617.84 --> 1623.04]  because if you take the 37 signals approach it's always like have an enemy right yeah and i don't
+[1623.04 --> 1626.54]  use gantt charts was base camps original thing and that's sort of what kicked that off and it was
+[1626.54 --> 1632.14]  like you know it's about conversations and people not and things to do not gantt charts and graphs and
+[1632.14 --> 1636.92]  whatnot so totally who's your enemy so it wouldn't be wordpress i always just say wordpress because like
+[1636.92 --> 1644.12]  when you're you know it's the lowest common denominator of the net yeah um but it's really drupal uh i would
+[1644.12 --> 1651.80]  definitely uh i would say drupal okay uh anything that feels like well they've got a pretty cult-like
+[1651.80 --> 1659.50]  following though like anybody who does use drupal community and it's a somewhat kind of gross product
+[1659.50 --> 1665.18]  uh and i i feel bad putting down anything you know at any time even on twitter and stuff but um
+[1665.18 --> 1671.10]  but if i had to you know obviously i'm i'm making a competitor so there has to be some stuff out there i
+[1671.10 --> 1678.16]  don't like um but drupal drupal sort of represents that you know it you look like you're using
+[1678.16 --> 1684.42]  php my admin or some you know like database administration tool um
+[1684.42 --> 1692.36]  yeah and and and i would say even like systems that i i'm really fond of like uh craft came out
+[1692.36 --> 1698.14]  and and that came sort of out of the expression engine community one of the developers i think his
+[1698.14 --> 1704.64]  name is brandon kelly i hope i get that right um who who did a lot of plugins and and sort of the
+[1704.64 --> 1710.44]  most popular plugins for expression engine made his own cms and and it's really elegant there's like
+[1710.44 --> 1718.36]  a lot of extremely impressive pieces to it but it's still to me just at a certain point feels a little
+[1718.36 --> 1724.88]  bit like just rows you know tables of lists and then you click and you're in a detail view and you know
+[1724.88 --> 1733.10]  like uh that very sort of straightforward um database administration feel well now that we've
+[1733.10 --> 1739.76]  talked a bit about i guess some of maybe your your competitors enemies inspiration whatever however
+[1739.76 --> 1743.98]  you want to word that obviously you're building this around the community on assembly so how does
+[1743.98 --> 1749.66]  how has and how does and how is the the community that's sort of because you've got 294 followers on
+[1749.66 --> 1754.86]  assembly for this project i don't know how many are really actively involved or involved or
+[1754.86 --> 1761.64]  contributing ideas but how do they help funnel this idea of monetization and the overall what
+[1761.64 --> 1767.30]  would be the architecture of how you build this product so this is kind of like a weird answer but
+[1767.30 --> 1774.22]  kind of not enough in some ways i i wish there was a little bit more or i wish you know i knew of
+[1774.22 --> 1778.84]  people that i could just say okay this is my team of five people that i can ask these sort of
+[1778.84 --> 1786.58]  high level big questions too regarding the multi-tenant sort of ambitions i think that i am
+[1786.58 --> 1792.98]  planning a blog post i might put it out tomorrow or monday about this and sort of asking the community
+[1792.98 --> 1797.70]  what do they think do they have ideas that kind of thing um i didn't want to publish that blog post
+[1797.70 --> 1804.80]  until i had a little bit more concrete plan on how we would do it which um i'm going to outline in
+[1804.80 --> 1814.08]  there but uh in some ways like and and it also sort of goes up and down like uh some weeks uh there
+[1814.08 --> 1821.26]  will be no activity on assembly and i'll um i'll like sort of post things in the chat and and it just
+[1821.26 --> 1826.92]  goes quiet for a couple days or like a week um and then other weeks i'll get you know people making
+[1826.92 --> 1833.78]  bounties people adding pull requests sort of every day yeah um and i guess that's kind of typical for
+[1833.78 --> 1839.72]  all open source software or at least in the beginning in the early stages but it's it's an
+[1839.72 --> 1849.22]  odd thing to create a cms i think because or even any sort of big uh i guess app and not just something
+[1849.22 --> 1855.94]  that's a framework or a tool or a library uh which i guess is what i'm used to because like
+[1855.94 --> 1861.16]  you know your trajectory is so far right i mean you go so many different directions and everybody has an
+[1861.16 --> 1867.50]  opinion and and i also just don't like if i put myself in somebody else's shoes like i would never
+[1867.50 --> 1875.16]  use buckets like who who um who wants to build he just say that jerry i think he did i'm trying to
+[1875.16 --> 1882.70]  wait for the for the rest of the sentence at this stage i i shall uh supplement it with at this at this
+[1882.70 --> 1891.02]  stage like who would build a website um you know for a client on alpha software um yeah personally i
+[1891.02 --> 1897.60]  would not uh and and i don't expect anyone to but at the same time it's you know it's hard for somebody
+[1897.60 --> 1904.92]  to play with something or to you know experiment or uh test something uh you know 10-15 hours a week
+[1904.92 --> 1910.26]  when they're not doing something productive with it at the same time you know unless though unless they
+[1910.26 --> 1916.00]  have the same pain as you and they want buckets to exist just because of the same ideas and the
+[1916.00 --> 1920.68]  same pain points you've experienced which is exactly a good builder experience and a good client level
+[1920.68 --> 1928.60]  experience that surpasses others that are in your space yep totally and i think i've had uh from
+[1928.60 --> 1936.70]  assembly maybe two or three people who have really um done a surprising amount more than i expected
+[1936.70 --> 1944.06]  uh with certain parts of the the app so how does that work when somebody wants to get involved with
+[1944.06 --> 1951.62]  buckets via assembly do they just sign up and say i'm here i can help i think this is cool and you say
+[1951.62 --> 1960.84]  okay can you say no um no i can't say no interestingly i just had a spam sign up the first one ever like uh
+[1960.84 --> 1966.20]  a week ago i don't know if it was spam maybe the guy really like his grandma's really sick or something but
+[1966.20 --> 1972.28]  um but i can't i can't get him out of there i think they're going to help me out with that at some
+[1972.28 --> 1979.10]  point but um no they uh it's actually it's very much like you just described in fact if you go to
+[1979.10 --> 1986.38]  assembly.com slash buckets like uh they just revamped the uh sort of home page feed and you can see
+[1986.38 --> 1992.22]  people's bios as they're signing up um they just pop in and i think when they sign up for a project
+[1992.22 --> 1997.46]  uh assembly ask them hey say a little bit about yourself why why are you interested in buckets
+[1997.46 --> 2003.48]  and so they usually say you know oh i've uh you know i'm a java developer i've played around with
+[2003.48 --> 2009.20]  uh some node or you know uh i'm more on the marketing side but i'd love to help that type of thing
+[2009.20 --> 2016.78]  and then i typically you know i i try to sort of give everybody a custom hello and and make sure
+[2016.78 --> 2022.88]  you know they can find the things uh if if they want to help if they want to contribute like i i i'm
+[2022.88 --> 2028.60]  always telling people if if you need a bounty like i think there's like a hundred some on assembly right
+[2028.60 --> 2035.56]  now um because i basically will throw any idea i have into the bounties um if you want a bounty
+[2035.56 --> 2043.08]  literally just ping me either im me or twitter dm me or or hit me up in the assembly chat and just say
+[2043.08 --> 2049.12]  this is the type of stuff i like to do um and i'll find one for you i can find one within 10 minutes
+[2049.12 --> 2055.88]  so as a project owner you create the bounties um i think anybody can create the bounties i hope
+[2055.88 --> 2060.88]  anybody can yeah any so if you sign up anybody can create a bounty anybody can create a discussion
+[2060.88 --> 2067.16]  yeah and then um i don't know how the assignment of coins applies to that but i'm assuming that's
+[2067.16 --> 2074.02]  probably something that's on your side um i i don't know yeah again because uh i don't i want
+[2074.02 --> 2078.48]  to but i don't play with sort of other people's projects much i just don't have enough time i would
+[2078.48 --> 2084.88]  love to like just jump in on somebody else's too but um yeah so i know what it's like for me when i
+[2084.88 --> 2091.10]  create a bounty and it gives me sort of the coin um interface but i i don't know what it looks like
+[2091.10 --> 2096.88]  to anyone else i doubt they would just let you create a bounty with zero coin value yeah
+[2097.16 --> 2103.68]  you gotta give up something right yeah and then the interesting thing is every bounty uh dilutes
+[2103.68 --> 2109.62]  the pull of coins is simply added on top um so you're not subtracting from a hole you're actually
+[2109.62 --> 2117.52]  just adding yeah like a lot you know because yeah that's better like let's say you own 10 percent of
+[2117.52 --> 2123.94]  buckets um it sort of guarantees that you have to keep doing something not a not a lot but in fact
+[2123.94 --> 2130.32]  less so sort of exponentially over time but uh you have to do something to maintain that 10 percent
+[2130.32 --> 2139.28]  level you know right so man it sounds like this is a little bit wild west in the sense of okay from
+[2139.28 --> 2145.04]  from a from a person who's trying to get involved it's very speculative it's you're investing it's
+[2145.04 --> 2149.92]  kind of like kickstarter for open source to a certain degree as far as you're not selling people
+[2149.92 --> 2153.50]  you're not trying to get people's money you're trying to get their time and you pitch them on
+[2153.50 --> 2158.30]  your project and for them they're investing their time and their skills into something that they hope
+[2158.30 --> 2163.54]  will make money some at some point yeah and yet somebody somebody could come in and just completely
+[2163.54 --> 2170.20]  harpoon this thing right by just being like a total loser contributor totally and that's where
+[2170.20 --> 2178.88]  that's where we're a little bit i think we're on the more um special side of assembly in that way
+[2178.88 --> 2184.86]  you know there are products on assembly that are already making money okay um and you know and
+[2184.86 --> 2189.08]  again i think this also comes back to like a cms is a little bit different in that it's it's
+[2189.08 --> 2195.84]  clearly like a long tail thing it's it means establishing a community a plug-in system you know all those
+[2195.84 --> 2201.32]  things that that are not going to be you know six months away but i almost feel like they should be a
+[2201.32 --> 2208.24]  little restrictive though because if you can't i feel like the for you for buckets for this open source
+[2208.24 --> 2214.80]  cms that hopes to one day be a sas product that generates some revenue i feel like for you you
+[2214.80 --> 2219.22]  want to be able to assemble a team that you don't personally know that you can attract people to and
+[2219.22 --> 2225.36]  join a collaborative community that isn't on github because github's more open source than it is
+[2225.36 --> 2232.16]  assembly um but still have free reign of like who can join the team or not like who earns their way
+[2232.16 --> 2237.72]  so no no but um but you don't earn any coins unless you complete a bounty right right of course
+[2237.72 --> 2243.96]  but like joining you know the discussions and just sort of like spamming like like the one person you
+[2243.96 --> 2249.14]  mentioned i feel like i'm actually i'm kind of okay with i mean there's like that was only one
+[2249.14 --> 2256.30]  sign up and he had a weird uh thing about his grandmother and his bio but um but aside from that
+[2256.30 --> 2262.00]  you know it would get very little noise and and i actually i would actually up to the other side of
+[2262.00 --> 2268.58]  that where um i i've actually and you know i talked to the assembly guys and and i'm i'm kind of friendly
+[2268.58 --> 2277.12]  with them and i actually pushed them to to allow more anonymity within the app um you know for example
+[2277.12 --> 2283.82]  the chat it would be great if uh anonymous people could join into the chat i think and i realize that's
+[2283.82 --> 2289.52]  asking for a whole world of hurt but at the same time like i'm sure you've seen products or sites
+[2289.52 --> 2295.92]  where they have sort of an open slack room that you can join if you have some sort of pre-install or
+[2295.92 --> 2302.12]  pre-sales questions um yeah and i i actually like that you know and if hopefully there are tools you
+[2302.12 --> 2308.72]  know for banning or whatever uh spam types of things but um but in general even like you know on github
+[2308.72 --> 2314.54]  i like getting issues from random people uh and that's another thing i've discussed and we're sort
+[2314.54 --> 2321.34]  of i'm sort of in the process of discussing with assembly is uh we're sort of debating whether or not
+[2321.34 --> 2328.04]  to allow uh github issues because you know it's clearly creates like a little bit of confusion over
+[2328.04 --> 2335.46]  okay where do i put this bug you know is it bounty or is it a uh github issue right i kind of want
+[2335.46 --> 2342.76]  them to open it up because uh you know my sort of thought is not everybody who uses buckets is going
+[2342.76 --> 2350.02]  to come from assembly uh and and github is clearly in the developer community a pretty well-known
+[2350.02 --> 2356.36]  prominent tool everybody has an account everybody has used the issues before um but i you know i see
+[2356.36 --> 2363.44]  both sides of the coin there but yeah in general i love the idea of as open as possible let's pause the
+[2363.44 --> 2367.40]  show for a minute give a shout out to a sponsor top towel if you've listened to the show over the
+[2367.40 --> 2372.54]  last year you've definitely heard us talk about top towel we uh we've seen firsthand the the fruits
+[2372.54 --> 2377.30]  and benefits of having top time the community helping marry really great opportunities for
+[2377.30 --> 2384.14]  developers with really great developers uh as top towel says elite engineers um i wanted to mention
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+[2415.82 --> 2423.08]  and now back to the show we've talked a while i guess we try to establish what what size of the
+[2423.08 --> 2427.82]  team you do have or don't have so it seems like you're the core team right now yeah who else is
+[2427.82 --> 2435.06]  on the team with you i would say um so nobody i i keep myself as the core team for now like i would
+[2435.06 --> 2442.02]  i would absolutely adore to sort of promote somebody else to the core team but uh i think as a core team
+[2442.02 --> 2450.64]  you get sort of i forget i think it's like three to five percent of all um bounties is just sort of
+[2450.64 --> 2456.74]  reserved for you and it and that five percent i think is split among the core team uh and not like
+[2456.74 --> 2461.18]  i'm trying to sound greedy but you know uh if somebody's going to if we if i start splitting that
+[2461.18 --> 2466.40]  and we get 2.5 percent each like i just want to make sure it's somebody that's committed committed yeah
+[2466.40 --> 2472.92]  into it yeah yeah and uh you know so if somebody was just sort of knocking out bounties for like
+[2472.92 --> 2481.28]  two months straight um i i i wouldn't hesitate but anyway for now i'm i'm the core team i think if you
+[2481.28 --> 2487.38]  were to look at our github i think we've had about 15 or so contributors um some of them smaller than
+[2487.38 --> 2495.14]  others but um i would say 10 to 15 people in general have really jumped up on the the code side
+[2495.14 --> 2502.18]  so maybe 20 to 25 people total in terms of also design things uh etc on assembly
+[2502.18 --> 2509.14]  shout out to uh charles pletcher he's got uh let's see how many commits he's got 69 commits so he actually
+[2509.14 --> 2516.00]  he's part of assembly and uh oh there you go he jumped on early on uh he did he did some awesome
+[2516.00 --> 2522.08]  fantastic stuff for the templates and everything um i've been sitting over here thinking it just sounds
+[2522.08 --> 2527.80]  like what you're missing is a is a partner in crime like you like a second person somebody more
+[2527.80 --> 2534.04]  on the system back end ops side that really would just complement your talents it seems like you're
+[2534.04 --> 2539.56]  pretty well rounded but to help make those big decisions you know uh i was thinking a lot about
+[2539.56 --> 2544.40]  last year as i was like trying to do this sort of on my own was i just thought oh if i just had that
+[2544.40 --> 2550.06]  that technical co-founder you know that like dream thing everybody around here wants but but at the
+[2550.06 --> 2558.32]  same time i don't you know i've i've done businesses and and sort of apps and things uh with partners
+[2558.32 --> 2563.06]  that i've met and just sort of reached out to and all kinds of things and i just sort of thought
+[2563.06 --> 2570.76]  this is for me personally like much more of a long tail thing and if there was that person like i would want
+[2570.76 --> 2576.04]  a lot of trust in that person you know i i just wouldn't want it to be something i i you know
+[2576.04 --> 2583.88]  post an ad on weekendhacker.com and somebody's yeah that's a great idea um you know because it's just
+[2583.88 --> 2589.72]  that's it's great for getting off the ground but it's that like you know two years in and you guys
+[2589.72 --> 2594.76]  have different ideas of how it becomes a business i just didn't want to deal with any of that which is
+[2594.76 --> 2600.40]  a little not narcissistic but you know it's a little limiting in that i'm like putting a lot on
+[2600.40 --> 2608.16]  myself for now but um but like i said i'm i'm open to it i if somebody you know seems like assembly is
+[2608.16 --> 2613.44]  a decent vetting solution for that where you can you know they can come and put their time in get
+[2613.44 --> 2619.50]  get some i guess equity over time build up trust show that they've got the skills and then eventually
+[2619.50 --> 2627.00]  could become that person i actually did offer it to charles to uh charles pletcher uh like a few
+[2627.00 --> 2632.26]  months ago i said you should become part of the core team because he clearly sort of knew what was
+[2632.26 --> 2636.98]  going on in the architecture and and i think he had a good idea of where i was going but he was like
+[2636.98 --> 2642.24]  you know uh i'm gonna eventually i'm gonna have to spend some time on other assembly projects and
+[2642.24 --> 2652.30]  actually put in time for assembly itself um so he declined but um hopefully one day so if you're out
+[2652.30 --> 2659.14]  there and you're a back-end hacker as jared just uh described and and you like david and you think
+[2659.14 --> 2665.92]  that buckets has a good direction and you could just hop in work hardcore for two months and he'll
+[2665.92 --> 2673.40]  promote you to core totally right yeah i mean if i were to describe my dream situation if like i've
+[2673.40 --> 2679.30]  completely loved working on the node side and i love working with node um but like you said like
+[2679.30 --> 2685.56]  it's sort of more in that sysops realm that i i just it's not as fun for me like if i got to spend
+[2685.56 --> 2692.52]  you know twice as much time just kicking out the user interface and doing more custom fields you know
+[2692.52 --> 2700.60]  we need like relationships um types of fields we need repeater types of fields anyway so we talked a ton
+[2700.60 --> 2705.60]  about the the product itself but we're obviously this is the change log we like to get a little technical
+[2705.60 --> 2712.58]  um on this show so you mentioned node obviously mongodb i i saw earlier in in your history too you
+[2712.58 --> 2719.02]  moved from rethink to to mongo i think that was for windows is that still like what were some of the
+[2719.02 --> 2726.10]  reasons why you chose node and chose mongo and and why node so node was the easy choice because i just
+[2726.10 --> 2735.22]  knew i wanted to do it in node um the reasons for that are um you know partly convenience because i'm a
+[2735.22 --> 2742.82]  front-end guy and so javascript feels natural to me um it was partly an experiment because i just
+[2742.82 --> 2750.20]  wanted to try something new um i think you know and again i'm more of a front-end guy so i i don't
+[2750.20 --> 2755.36]  want to like say the wrong thing but like looking at sort of the spectrum of all the different
+[2755.36 --> 2762.46]  server-side tools and things you have now um you know i'm personally i'll just never build a java app
+[2762.46 --> 2772.56]  um ruby is to me just ruby seems like the uh i'm gonna get in trouble here but sort of a childish
+[2772.56 --> 2786.06]  equivalent of node oh yikes not yikes not quite as no no i think uh yeah um how so how so it's it's
+[2786.06 --> 2795.70]  just not quite as impressive in terms of its scalability right um and the the sort of
+[2795.70 --> 2805.32]  asynchronous evented nature of of node um actually allows for certain things like i think on the the
+[2805.32 --> 2812.44]  surface they seem quite similar um but at the end of the day in a lot of situations node is much much
+[2812.44 --> 2822.84]  faster um and for me easier to develop in because it is javascript the evented model provides for that
+[2822.84 --> 2830.70]  right so yeah and um which you can do in ruby but it's not the typical web frameworks are not using
+[2830.70 --> 2838.90]  event machine so they don't have that built right in whereas node does yeah what about the the back
+[2838.90 --> 2844.94]  end um i think a document-based database makes a lot of sense because your cmss are basically just
+[2844.94 --> 2849.64]  storing a bunch of documents is that kind of where you started and then you yeah and and that again
+[2849.64 --> 2856.30]  was partly an experimentation and and i still have people once a week warn me that mongodb is gonna
+[2856.30 --> 2863.84]  start vomiting in my face at some point but um but so far it's been great uh you know it was something
+[2863.84 --> 2871.42]  that again during while i was at censia i basically only worked on client-side projects for for three
+[2871.42 --> 2879.80]  years or so and i and i saw sort of these uh you know no sequel or document-based databases were
+[2879.80 --> 2885.68]  becoming really popular around then um i mean that's a bit of a miss it was obviously i was probably late
+[2885.68 --> 2892.42]  to the bandwagon but um but i i saw a lot of that while i was there without actually using one and i just
+[2892.42 --> 2897.60]  you know after you when you spend so much time with javascript and working with objects the idea
+[2897.60 --> 2904.34]  of using objects to query your database or to be able to inject objects into places within your
+[2904.34 --> 2911.92]  database is just sort of extremely appealing and that was sort of the initial uh impetus and i did i
+[2911.92 --> 2919.80]  started with rethink just because i had heard sort of various war stories of of mongo and uh rethink
+[2919.80 --> 2925.74]  seems to be sort of one of the cooler new kids on the block but you know a big reason i went with
+[2925.74 --> 2933.94]  mongo was just because of mongoose in the node ecosystem it's it's just i to me at least far
+[2933.94 --> 2942.72]  sort of further ahead than any other sort of orm odb type thing that's interesting so the the mongoose
+[2942.72 --> 2947.70]  library itself was the kind of the deciding factor there for you yeah definitely one of the bigger
+[2947.70 --> 2956.50]  uh decision makers you know just the built-in validation the uh relationship management it
+[2956.50 --> 2962.46]  was all just super super straightforward i guess there's some there's some symmetry there with
+[2962.46 --> 2967.82]  you know your desire for uh clean user interfaces and thinking about that user experience if you find
+[2967.82 --> 2973.64]  an api that you really love it makes sense it you know it's it's a huge factor and that's another
+[2973.64 --> 2980.64]  thing which i put a lot of sort of focus on within buckets and and you know it's it's i do say like
+[2980.64 --> 2986.96]  it's it's my project and so i i do stuff in it that um not everybody's gonna like it's how i like to
+[2986.96 --> 2995.22]  program certain things but in reality again this is highly contentious um buckets is like 90 percent
+[2995.22 --> 3002.54]  like if you look at the stats on github it's like 90 percent coffee script um like pretty much the
+[3002.54 --> 3008.30]  entirety of buckets whether it's the front end user interface or it's the server side uh models and
+[3008.30 --> 3014.02]  database connections uh is all written in coffee script well you're not going to have any arguments
+[3014.02 --> 3020.32]  for me on that one but i think most people would you know it's it's one of those contentious things but
+[3020.32 --> 3026.22]  it yes i just thought in the beginning especially in the beginning like you know this is not something
+[3026.22 --> 3030.66]  that people are just going to jump in and i'm going to start getting 20 pull requests a week
+[3030.66 --> 3036.48]  no matter what i write it in right and so i might as well write it in the thing that keeps me motivated
+[3036.48 --> 3044.18]  and keeps you know makes it the lowest sort of um cognitive overhead for me to jump in and fix a bug
+[3044.18 --> 3048.22]  interesting do you think that that has paid off as an early decision
+[3048.22 --> 3055.12]  um i don't know it's hard to say like i you know there's always that sort of worry in the back of my
+[3055.12 --> 3062.32]  mind that i'd have you know 10x the contributors if it was in raw javascript but again it's it's that
+[3062.32 --> 3070.02]  like i like how the app looks you know like in terms of the source code like and the dependency
+[3070.02 --> 3077.56]  management and the modules you know it's it's um it's it's somewhat artificial which i think is the
+[3077.56 --> 3080.72]  problem but i think people are getting more and more comfortable with that you know with
+[3080.72 --> 3088.62]  grunt and gulp and browserify and all these things people are starting to see how uh javascript can be
+[3088.62 --> 3097.46]  sort of crafted in kind of a less gross kind of loosey-goosey way right uh and and uh i'm gonna
+[3097.46 --> 3102.58]  bring it old school now but it's like javascript for me at least especially with action script is
+[3102.58 --> 3110.70]  starting to look like sort of action script three of like you know eight years ago or so where you're
+[3110.70 --> 3115.44]  you know you're importing classes or you're requiring classes you're extending things you know
+[3115.44 --> 3123.90]  it's it's um it's a whole different space sure is uh i think one thing we're gonna link out to
+[3123.90 --> 3129.08]  that may not uh quite fit into this call but you've sort of talked in and around it but uh
+[3129.08 --> 3134.70]  is your vision document which i think is pretty neat to have on um on your repo it's just talking
+[3134.70 --> 3138.62]  about the general philosophies and where you're heading for the future so i think is some of that
+[3138.62 --> 3143.78]  replicated back in assembly to to sort of because it's it's back in that space where do you send
+[3143.78 --> 3148.36]  people to github to the repo to a readme or a markdown file or do you send them to assembly
+[3148.36 --> 3157.56]  like where do they i am at to kind of get interested yeah and so so far like assembly has a sort of main
+[3157.56 --> 3164.24]  descriptor for the project and then it's just sort of replaced that on the main page with a timeline
+[3164.24 --> 3170.68]  for the project but um but in general like they've always been sort of assembly has always been
+[3170.68 --> 3177.08]  sort of more geared around the flow of things and and the bounties and and things like that like it's
+[3177.08 --> 3182.34]  not like base camp where you have those uh uh i forget what they called them but they were write
+[3182.34 --> 3187.14]  board like 10 years ago you know these like permanent like we're going to edit copy together
+[3187.14 --> 3195.88]  kind of uh mini application um and so i just wanted uh sort of a permanent place to store copy
+[3195.88 --> 3202.28]  uh and just decided to throw it in there with github i do wish i was better about keeping these things
+[3202.28 --> 3207.16]  in sync you know it's like it's like keeping your avatars in sync across different profiles like i just
+[3207.16 --> 3214.24]  find myself i'm just always tweaking copy for buckets like whether it's the their the twitter uh bio
+[3214.24 --> 3221.84]  or it's the github home page readme or it's the assembly front page you know um i don't have like
+[3221.84 --> 3229.28]  one central thing and then i you know like a press app or something well that that leads into probably
+[3229.28 --> 3234.04]  the first of our closing questions which is you know sort of a call to arm so you sort of talked
+[3234.04 --> 3240.26]  about your own uh keeping things in sync issues but like if someone's listening to this they love node
+[3240.26 --> 3245.58]  they love javascript they are they're getting into node for you know node or just in javascript in
+[3245.58 --> 3250.78]  general and they're a front-end designer hacker and they want to sort of jump in or that that
+[3250.78 --> 3256.90]  back-end person that's listening to the show where do they go what what um you know in what ways can
+[3256.90 --> 3262.30]  the community step in and start helping you make this real if they want to i think the clearest path
+[3262.30 --> 3267.90]  is is definitely assembly i think that's you know that's what it's there for if you go to
+[3267.90 --> 3275.40]  assembly.com slash buckets you get a lot of great basic info uh just sign up it takes like a minute
+[3275.40 --> 3280.60]  and then and then you can just browse the the bounties and like i said there's like a hundred
+[3280.60 --> 3287.54]  of them you can um if if literally none of them look interesting to you just tell me what you are
+[3287.54 --> 3291.96]  interested in doing and i'll see if there's something there i tell a lot of people you know
+[3291.96 --> 3297.62]  it's not just about it's it's like not github it's not just about development and it's also not just
+[3297.62 --> 3303.98]  about design i think like i would love to eventually maybe it's a little soon for this but like
+[3303.98 --> 3311.06]  eventually just have sort of an advisory panel of people who make websites for other people and just
+[3311.06 --> 3317.02]  what do they want out of their systems like what did drupal users really wish was part of it or or what
+[3317.02 --> 3322.38]  is somebody's pain points with expression engine those types of things you know however minor even
+[3322.38 --> 3328.48]  just you know recommendations or um just feature requests are are totally appreciated
+[3328.48 --> 3335.92]  and our our famous question jared which is uh which is who is your programming hero some people come on
+[3335.92 --> 3340.42]  the show they mention a few some mention one you know the it's it's open-ended who's your who's your
+[3340.42 --> 3348.38]  hero so i've been trying to think about this for the past hour um i i i'm gonna go with uh
+[3348.38 --> 3357.16]  37 signals is a generally a huge source of inspiration uh a lot of their inspiration is
+[3357.16 --> 3364.16]  what goes into buckets it's the idea that we could do something small profitable that's not vc backed
+[3364.16 --> 3372.18]  that is um you know profitable enough to sustain the people that work on it and not necessarily start
+[3372.18 --> 3378.94]  bringing in 50 million a year but you know that sort of mentality and the mentality that that it can be
+[3378.94 --> 3385.28]  a small team it can be um you know 10 people that make this thing that that hundreds of thousands of
+[3385.28 --> 3394.08]  people use um it's definitely a big inspiration wow well dave i i know that uh you know we've been
+[3394.08 --> 3399.70]  we've had you on the show like i said once before back at episode 30 uh that's at uh that's on the site
+[3399.70 --> 3403.90]  you can you can go back and listen to him talk about central with wind back in the day but you
+[3403.90 --> 3407.54]  know we're a fan of what you're doing however we can support we obviously want to support you in
+[3407.54 --> 3412.24]  in that endeavor and anybody who's listened to the show follow follow dave and figure out what he's
+[3412.24 --> 3417.12]  doing with buckets and and uh see how you can plug in we got uh a couple sponsors we want to give
+[3417.12 --> 3420.98]  some thanks to for the show because that's how we make this show possible along with our awesome
+[3420.98 --> 3426.96]  members who make it possible as well uh code ship digital ocean and top tile super awesome partners
+[3426.96 --> 3432.50]  those guys all three of those sponsors pretty much help keep the change log alive so if you
+[3432.50 --> 3437.56]  don't use code ship you're not hosted on digital ocean and you don't hire developers or you're not an
+[3437.56 --> 3443.04]  elite engineer through top tile we're just we're just showing big old emoji sad faces around here so
+[3443.04 --> 3450.68]  um next next week we do have all things pearl with codis poe curtis uh curtis right that's what i said
+[3450.68 --> 3455.32]  curtis yep that's right yeah curtis we're excited about that because this is i think this might be our
+[3455.32 --> 3461.52]  first eric of having pearl on the show we probably mentioned it but never a project or someone that
+[3461.52 --> 3467.88]  can come and speak to pearl the language um i'm gonna get caught up yeah we're excited so that's
+[3467.88 --> 3473.10]  next friday we'll record but uh that's what's coming up next so that has been it for this show
+[3473.10 --> 3479.14]  everybody on here let's say goodbye bye all right thank you guys so much bye
+[3479.14 --> 3498.70]  a little bit of a unusual ending there on my side sorry about that but uh
+[3498.70 --> 3502.42]  codis you said okay i literally couldn't name a designer
+[3502.42 --> 3509.76]  i was gonna tell you just name a couple but i could swear i said curtis not codis well you know
+[3509.76 --> 3514.84]  the audio the audio won't lie aaron i'll tell you i could have heard it wrong but i thought you said
+[3514.84 --> 3520.28]  codis poe uh no maybe maybe i did i don't know listen to it back
+[3520.28 --> 3530.94]  next week we do have all things pearl with codis poe curtis uh curtis right that's what i said
+[3530.94 --> 3532.68]  curtis yep that's right
+[3532.68 --> 3532.74]  yep that's right
+[3532.74 --> 3532.98]  yep that's right
+[3532.98 --> 3533.18]  yep that's right
+[3533.18 --> 3533.22]  yep that's right
+[3533.22 --> 3544.22]  yep that's right
+[3544.22 --> 3558.42]  yep that's right

End of Year 2014_transcript.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,597 @@
+[0.00 --> 14.60]  all right everybody we're back this is uh this is an unusual show for us because it's just me
+[14.60 --> 23.30]  and jared um this is i guess code name eoy for end of year 2014 because this is a pretty awesome
+[23.30 --> 27.78]  year for for the change logs so you got me here you got jared here so jared say hello
+[27.78 --> 34.94]  what's up man how you doing uh you know just just winding it down you know winding it down it's it's
+[34.94 --> 40.42]  it's almost christmas time you know it's getting real close it's a friday so it's an end of a good
+[40.42 --> 46.30]  week um you know day job wise ship some awesome stuff the whole team's doing great we're all
+[46.30 --> 53.86]  preparing for um the christmas holiday next uh next week and just the new year and a lot of things
+[53.86 --> 58.66]  a lot of things happen you get sort of sentimental at this time of year you get a little thankful
+[58.66 --> 62.44]  this time of year and not that you're not thankful other times in the year it's just you kind of
+[62.44 --> 68.06]  reflect you you know you do a retrospective of of what that year was and it's you know there's
+[68.06 --> 72.58]  positives there's negatives there's things that you know surprise you and people you're thankful
+[72.58 --> 76.82]  for so i figured it would be good for you and i to hop on the show and just you and i because we
+[76.82 --> 81.08]  actually had some scheduling conflicts and had some shows planned that just didn't work out so we'll do
+[81.08 --> 85.42]  them in the new year i thought it'd make sense for us to come on and to say hello to all of our
+[85.42 --> 88.46]  awesome listeners and talk about what's going on with the changelog what we're doing and who we're
+[88.46 --> 94.60]  thankful for so so do you read just random question do you read all those end of year top lists is that
+[94.60 --> 101.14]  something that you're into or do you frown upon those things uh well i guess what do you mean do you
+[101.14 --> 107.36]  mean from individuals or or for just in general i mean they're everywhere uh you know the best top albums
+[107.36 --> 113.72]  of the year the five biggest mistakes celebrities made or whatever it seems like we always have
+[113.72 --> 119.14]  these year-end roundups you know the favorite this the worst that i will say they have a place but i
+[119.14 --> 123.70]  would say i read the i read the ones that are most relevant to maybe what i'm feeling so if it's like
+[123.70 --> 131.00]  um you know top worst mistakes you know product managers made this year i probably might read that
+[131.00 --> 136.00]  one or you know top ones podcasters you know so depending upon how relevant is to me you know i don't
+[136.00 --> 141.18]  care about celebrities i don't i'm just not gonna read that um anything around what we're doing here
+[141.18 --> 148.70]  at the changelog or what i do professionally so photography video coding design development ux
+[148.70 --> 156.42]  um mentoring you know i'll probably dig into something like that you know right on top fonts
+[156.42 --> 161.80]  you know for the year oh you got you got a list ui patterns i don't have a list myself i know i've
+[161.80 --> 167.02]  i've used proxima nova this year i've dipped into helvetic even though i mean it's a staple
+[167.02 --> 172.98]  anybody has to use that uh i've gone to i'm not sure if i'm pronouncing it properly but but babas
+[172.98 --> 182.12]  b-e-b-a-s new that's a good one nice nice um slender font how about san francisco that's the new one
+[182.12 --> 188.50]  right i haven't seen that one that's the new one that apple is releasing as a part of ios 8 or
+[188.50 --> 194.96]  i don't remember so there you go i'm obviously not up on the times i try to be you know tech moves
+[194.96 --> 201.68]  fast not just open source right no doubt no doubt so yeah yeah and i i like that stuff i dig it i dig
+[201.68 --> 205.50]  those lists it kind of depends on how relevant it is so if it's relevant then definitely i'll dig into
+[205.50 --> 213.90]  it sure what about you yeah i mean i think it's easy to get burnt out on those things um i don't i
+[213.90 --> 221.16]  don't usually participate in uh like the big end of year roundups um i do actually write one usually
+[221.16 --> 228.10]  on my own site which is a little bit sentimental uh just like the stuff that i like the i call it
+[228.10 --> 232.48]  beloved bits it's like the the things that i found during that year that were they have to be
+[232.48 --> 239.54]  anatomically digital like that's my my criteria and so i'll just like my favorite movies uh video
+[239.54 --> 245.24]  games like mac apps ios apps yeah that kind of stuff so i do one even though i'm kind of like
+[245.24 --> 251.04]  anti that kind of thing so i'm very hypocritical in that way i write one but i don't read them yeah
+[251.04 --> 256.80]  they all suck except mine what what about the like the we saw this recently in the change law
+[256.80 --> 262.58]  weekly like the state of javascript or the state of pearl in 2014 or 2015 yeah those are similar to
+[262.58 --> 268.70]  that what about those yeah absolutely like i think i i read that uh the state of javascript in in
+[268.70 --> 274.80]  2015 and those are nice because obviously it's 2014 still so it's looking forward and trying to
+[274.80 --> 280.02]  project a little bit based on what we've experienced this year yeah and that's you know there's a lot
+[280.02 --> 286.72]  lots of insights of course if it's well written that's usually the the uh the x factor so i'll give
+[286.72 --> 290.30]  those things a chance for sure and then if they are well written and interesting i'll just keep going
+[290.30 --> 295.76]  if not i'll kind of move on what do you think about uh the general population of developers out
+[295.76 --> 301.78]  there do you think it's something that is um yeah you think it's a norm for people to read those do
+[301.78 --> 307.68]  they attract a lot of attention because any list sort of says hey i'm a list and you can expect x y z out
+[307.68 --> 313.92]  of me right you know yeah i mean i think most developers have a love hate relationship with lists
+[313.92 --> 320.56]  it's like we love to hate them um but they're also easy to write easy to read um yeah like you said you
+[320.56 --> 327.90]  have an expectation so you know what you're getting in for and uh i don't know it seems like most you
+[327.90 --> 332.92]  know used to be the old saying on hacker news or dig or reddit that you know to have a popular post
+[332.92 --> 339.74]  all you need is like x you know top y right in z in z there was a formula right and that's true because
+[339.74 --> 344.64]  yeah we kind of like reading those things even though well they're uh they're suggestive
+[344.64 --> 350.46]  suggestive words so they sort of they're bait you know they bait you into wanting having to
+[350.46 --> 356.58]  because we have to solve problems right we have to conclude the story we can't just like and the guy
+[356.58 --> 363.74]  went here and he didn't or did not die we have to sort of close the ending there yeah i feel you
+[363.74 --> 371.78]  that's that's kind of um we did that today i guess to a degree um at pure charity aside you know as you
+[371.78 --> 379.70]  know and everybody else knows my day job is not the change log um by day i'm a a um a fighter of
+[379.70 --> 386.84]  justice or sorry a fighter of injustice at pure charity um and we had retro today because today
+[386.84 --> 393.70]  we did demo we shipped so you know we all it was an epic demo today you know and then uh with any
+[393.70 --> 400.08]  epic demo we have an epic retro which is the last retro we'll have of this year it's the last uh
+[400.08 --> 403.38]  sprint we're going to commit to for this year so you know obviously there's a couple more weeks in
+[403.38 --> 409.20]  the year but we're done in terms of you know committing to sprints and stuff so it's kind of
+[409.20 --> 414.50]  neat because we got to do a retrospective of the entire year uh and we had a bumpy year we had a
+[414.50 --> 419.10]  bumpy year in the fact this is like way off topic of the change law by the way but just talk about
+[419.10 --> 427.00]  retrospectives um you know it was neat to look back at the whole year in its entirety and look at what
+[427.00 --> 432.98]  happened what changes you know what we did well we didn't do so great of and how we unified as a
+[432.98 --> 437.46]  team and i think it was it was just pretty productive and pretty uh emotionally charging
+[437.46 --> 443.32]  because you know we we saw how we had such a sort of a crappy year emotionally because our founder
+[443.32 --> 448.22]  passed away in april and then we unified as a team and a development team and a product team and
+[448.22 --> 454.34]  all that stuff for the year and you know this end of this year you sort of come out with some joy
+[454.34 --> 460.96]  because we know we achieved some really great high achieving goals and i think in general it's
+[460.96 --> 464.40]  just good to be retrospective about that stuff that's what we're doing here in a sense with
+[464.40 --> 470.68]  this show it's uh as we said before it's unusual for us to to take this format where we don't have
+[470.68 --> 475.22]  a guest it's just you and i and we're sort of just looking back at this year of the change log and
+[475.22 --> 479.76]  in no particular order we got some thanks we want to talk about we got some kind of high level topics
+[479.76 --> 484.04]  that we've seen happen in the open source world it's not conclusive by any means it's
+[484.04 --> 489.58]  just sort of like from the cuff to a to a degree and that's sort of what we're doing with this show
+[489.58 --> 499.64]  here so um it's the top five stories of the year yes no no no no um i guess maybe we could take some
+[499.64 --> 507.58]  turns here i i think i got a little rundown of a list here but um so when we relaunched the change log
+[507.58 --> 516.50]  in 2013 um we established a membership and that's grown um and so i think first i want to thank uh
+[516.50 --> 523.92]  the members who who pay yearly to support the change log um you know we we do have some advertisers
+[523.92 --> 528.88]  what we call sponsors that support the the show and those are really great relationships not just
+[528.88 --> 533.56]  people who give us money so we'll dig into that in a bit but uh i wanted to say thanks to the members
+[533.56 --> 540.68]  that that list and uh whatnot has grown and your support is is greatly appreciated because you help
+[540.68 --> 547.42]  keep me and jared uh excited about doing the change log and covering the breadth and width of open
+[547.42 --> 554.86]  sources best we possibly can um i know we went out to um ruby uh keep ruby weird this year together
+[554.86 --> 560.42]  to that conference and that was you know members help make that possible by going out and being at a
+[560.42 --> 565.84]  conference and doing some cool stuff and meeting people and stuff and just kind of neat too the
+[565.84 --> 569.98]  sidetrack to that was that that was the first time you and i actually met so that was like what
+[569.98 --> 577.10]  september october you mean irl yeah in real life oh we've we've had like video chat yeah video chat
+[577.10 --> 581.88]  and stuff but not like in real life you know shake hands right kind of thing yeah yeah brothers don't
+[581.88 --> 588.76]  shake hands brother's got a hug yeah brothers hug we hugged yeah so which kind of uh speaks to the
+[588.76 --> 592.34]  fact that you know i'm i'm kind of the new kid on the block in the sense of i've been involved for
+[592.34 --> 600.14]  just a couple years now but um you talk about the the members and the listeners over time and the
+[600.14 --> 605.52]  amount of support that we receive uh on a daily basis nowadays i'm sure it wasn't always like that
+[605.52 --> 612.02]  maybe give a give a quick rundown of uh kind of where the show came from and maybe not like
+[612.02 --> 618.78]  a huge history or anything but um talking about retrospectives like yeah go your your arc has gone
+[618.78 --> 626.60]  you know a long ways right yeah well uh way back in the day uh you know it's not that many years ago
+[626.60 --> 635.50]  but it feels like so many years ago 2009 um myself and win netherland whom yeah most know from the
+[635.50 --> 641.22]  show of course and his great work at github on the api and just his contributions to open source and
+[641.22 --> 648.24]  writing books and just giving talks at conferences he's a great guy um he and i were kicking around
+[648.24 --> 654.38]  some ideas together um i said it would be really neat to have a podcast called changelog i really like
+[654.38 --> 660.26]  the name changelog um for a podcast i said it would be really neat to like sort of look at open source
+[660.26 --> 664.36]  and look at the different versions and talk about what changed and what was interesting about that we
+[664.36 --> 669.58]  sort of uh morphed and evolved that idea and we really didn't have a clue that it would be what
+[669.58 --> 674.84]  it is today i guess maybe he did maybe i did and i don't know but it seemed like it was sort of a
+[674.84 --> 680.06]  happy accident to a degree and you know we did a couple shows and sort of figured out our format we got
+[680.06 --> 686.12]  um rob pike on the show early from from the go team the one of the founders of and creators of
+[686.12 --> 692.18]  the go language which is turn five this year right um so i mean that's that sort of shows you how long
+[692.18 --> 697.08]  we've been in this business it's it's it's been kind of crazy and we've just you know tried to do
+[697.08 --> 702.58]  our best to shine a spotlight on what's fresh and new and open source it's been a tagline of ours since
+[702.58 --> 708.08]  the beginning and we just try to do our best however we can with whomever is on the team at the
+[708.08 --> 713.02]  time and that team has changed over the years to serve the open source community and that's just
+[713.02 --> 719.66]  sort of been our mission and you've been on on board for a couple years now i it time flies man i can't
+[719.66 --> 725.00]  remember when you joined or how long it's been but you know it's been great having you on this team
+[725.00 --> 731.54]  and and now uh co-hosting the show now that andrew's uh stepped into the role at stripe and he's got less
+[731.54 --> 737.16]  time to do it so um having a co-host is sort of paramount to this show i think it requires to a
+[737.16 --> 744.92]  degree um a good co-host and so it's just been great having you of course and that's that's sort of
+[744.92 --> 750.54]  where the change law came from thanks man happy to be here for sure it seems like uh one thing that
+[750.54 --> 756.26]  we have which i've never experienced the other side of this is we have a great group of supporters
+[756.26 --> 763.26]  that you said members yeah listeners people that ping us um did it did it take off immediately or
+[763.26 --> 769.50]  was it a slow was it a slow burn as far as getting to the place that we are now of of people
+[769.50 --> 776.54]  who like the show and like the website i would say what um some history that may not be known by
+[776.54 --> 783.26]  everybody is that we were originally as a site as an entity on the web we were on tumblr for the
+[783.26 --> 787.74]  longest time and it was a love-hate relationship for anybody who's ever done anything significant
+[787.74 --> 792.92]  on tumblr after a while we definitely outgrew it and win and i booth uh both knew that we
+[792.92 --> 799.18]  had outgrown it we had conjured up several different iterations of it uh and obviously stuff
+[799.18 --> 804.96]  we've never shipped and uh when win parted ways with the change log um after he was a get up for
+[804.96 --> 810.10]  a bit he just wanted to focus on his work there and family and stuff so after he parted ways i figured
+[810.10 --> 817.10]  you know it's time for either to to kill the change log and move on or rebirth it with uh with
+[817.10 --> 823.66]  i wouldn't say much a better plan but just maybe some structure and so we i got to tear down
+[823.66 --> 830.68]  and rebuild to a degree but you know the tear down wasn't like throw away it was sort of tear down
+[830.68 --> 836.92]  what the idea was and what it what it could be and rebuild it from there and so rebuilt the site on
+[836.92 --> 844.54]  wordpress multi-author platform and uh the membership was crucial at the first at first and you asked if
+[844.54 --> 850.72]  it took off quickly at first uh membership the membership stood off really fast and then it sort of
+[850.72 --> 855.88]  tailed off and then it was sort of non-existent for a while getting new you know new members the
+[855.88 --> 862.12]  members were there and then we were still trying to figure out how we can best make the membership
+[862.12 --> 868.76]  really work to one be a financial um gain for us so we can keep doing this thing because it does cost
+[868.76 --> 873.98]  money you know going to conferences and buying this awesome podcast equipment we have and serving the
+[873.98 --> 880.78]  files all these things cost money or you know everything um that was that was a that's been a
+[880.78 --> 887.06]  battle it's been tough to to give value back when we give every way everything away for free already
+[887.06 --> 892.70]  you know so members in a sense was sort of a donation uh and then it it dawned on me that we
+[892.70 --> 899.30]  can actually leverage our sponsors and turn them into partners and have them give an exclusive offer to
+[899.30 --> 905.66]  paying members so like digital ocean gave 20 bucks for new accounts and you know you get on a list
+[905.66 --> 910.66]  rackspace digital ocean i can get on a list i don't have it right in front of me right now top towels is a
+[910.66 --> 918.30]  uh a partner as well and that's sort of been the catalyst to make i think our benefits to the membership
+[918.30 --> 928.00]  be really awesome code chip max cdn honey badger run scope travesty i um code base deploy version i
+[928.00 --> 933.38]  those are all partners with the changelog we've got some kind of unusual partners too i guess not
+[933.38 --> 939.38]  really unusual they're just not corporate sponsors like ruby tapas everybody watches that or at least
+[939.38 --> 945.72]  any rubius possibly uh and we're ruby heavy around here ruby off rails so not ruby on rails good friend
+[945.72 --> 950.48]  here in houston runs that uh motion in motion for those who are doing ruby motion so you want to learn
+[950.48 --> 957.32]  that those are partners of ours elixir sips learning the unix command line scaling php and
+[957.32 --> 961.88]  and that's that's what we've done so far to sort of give back in a way to those members who've given
+[961.88 --> 970.54]  us financial abilities to move forward so yeah not to mention 20 off a changelog tee yeah that's true
+[970.54 --> 974.14]  i mean who doesn't want a changelog t-shirt right throw that in there yeah i was actually thinking
+[974.14 --> 979.06]  about making that 50 i feel like 50 would be a better deal oh you know make no money at all on it i
+[979.06 --> 985.44]  mean why make 30 just make zero you get more people wearing changelog tees that way that's right so
+[985.44 --> 990.56]  that's what i was thinking so we'll probably do that now that we've said that so expect if you're a
+[990.56 --> 994.72]  member expect if you haven't ordered yet expect it to be 50 off instead of 20 because i think that's
+[994.72 --> 1001.04]  better uh and full access to our archives too so our front page changed a little bit our front page
+[1001.04 --> 1005.82]  used to have pagination and you used to be able to page through as far back as you ever wanted to go
+[1005.82 --> 1011.80]  and uh and now we restrict that you know i never wanted to change all to be to have any sort of
+[1011.80 --> 1016.74]  paywalls but i figured that you know our front page didn't have to have pagination anymore and
+[1016.74 --> 1021.52]  figured if you were a member you can have pagination and if you're not then you get prompted to
+[1021.52 --> 1028.08]  become a member and support us and i like the the the thing right right near the button not to not
+[1028.08 --> 1032.88]  linger on this membership stuff too much but i thought it was funny that right near the button
+[1032.88 --> 1037.16]  where it says yes i want to support the changelog and that's becoming a member right beneath that
+[1037.16 --> 1042.12]  is a link that says no i don't want to support open source which i think that's what our mission
+[1042.12 --> 1047.72]  is right to support open source and it links to this uh this cat that has the perfect sad face
+[1047.72 --> 1052.60]  oh i'm seeing that right now that's i don't know if anybody's ever seen that but i like it i think
+[1052.60 --> 1057.60]  it's kind of funny it's like that's a sad cat that's a sad cat yeah don't make the cat sad as that's
+[1057.60 --> 1063.34]  what we say around here there you go so you mentioned a love-hate relationship with tumblr and we traded that
+[1063.34 --> 1068.50]  in now we have a love-hate relationship with wordpress i think anything you eventually outgrow
+[1068.50 --> 1076.16]  you know yeah or you know there's better ways you know wordpress is good i love wordpress it's got a
+[1076.16 --> 1083.08]  lot of great support it's open source it's helped open source become more visible to so many people
+[1083.08 --> 1090.34]  but i think um it's also provided a marketplace for people who can do open source and you know sell
+[1090.34 --> 1094.10]  some of their wares as well yeah and make a living there's people that make a living doing either
+[1094.10 --> 1101.24]  themes or plugin development that's true yeah i i think it's you know i i will never see anything bad
+[1101.24 --> 1108.26]  about wordpress it's great i love it um but as for building the changelog on top of it i think we
+[1108.26 --> 1114.16]  sort of keep hitting our limits with platforms and we have bigger and better i wouldn't say bigger
+[1114.16 --> 1120.56]  and better i would just say grander ideas that may fit better on different languages or different
+[1120.56 --> 1125.46]  language platforms and right you know that kind of thing so and we've thrown around the possibility
+[1125.46 --> 1132.20]  of building our own uh member you know platform for the cms and the membership site yeah quite a bit
+[1132.20 --> 1137.66]  and uh you know i think to make it better that's what's required we could do it on wordpress but
+[1137.66 --> 1143.04]  you're not a wordpress developer i'm not a wordpress developer we sort of use we could build it on
+[1143.04 --> 1147.80]  wordpress but we might be able to build it even better on something else the problem is whatever
+[1147.80 --> 1151.68]  we build like right now it's love hate with wordpress but whatever we build it's gonna be
+[1151.68 --> 1156.30]  a love hate with that thing yeah and then we won't have some other guy to blame you know we can always
+[1156.30 --> 1162.80]  blame matt mullenweg yeah that's right his team but when it's our own code and then there's just no one
+[1162.80 --> 1168.04]  to point the finger at man yeah then it's our own bugs and all right all uh all bugs have software
+[1168.04 --> 1175.70]  that's right um so sponsors i think thanks also to the sponsors i mean not only the members and
+[1175.70 --> 1180.68]  listeners when we say members we mean those who are paying members but you know outside of that realm
+[1180.68 --> 1188.60]  of members we've got um umpteen thousand people who listen to the show globally it always blows my mind
+[1188.60 --> 1194.44]  to um to hear from somebody from like russia or somewhere in europe or somewhere in asia
+[1194.44 --> 1203.30]  or india or just south africa uh chile brazil i mean worldwide it's it you know the internet is
+[1203.30 --> 1210.24]  big obviously but it's still just mind-blowing that it's um you we get the honor and privilege to
+[1210.24 --> 1216.54]  be a part of something that touches so many lives that i never even knew of and it reminds you of how
+[1216.54 --> 1221.96]  small the world can be and that's sort of sort of wild so definitely thanks to everyone who
+[1221.96 --> 1228.20]  who supports us and and that that's sponsors too so one way we we do things around here is
+[1228.20 --> 1235.54]  by having awesome sponsors like digital ocean rack space top towel code ship um it's not an exhaustive
+[1235.54 --> 1243.08]  list uh run scope um just thinking off the top of my head who else has recently sponsored the show
+[1243.08 --> 1252.80]  uh blanking but yeah lots of great people support us if i didn't name your name it's not for any sort
+[1252.80 --> 1258.04]  of reason it's just that they help us in so many ways we got some cool stuff that's happening in the
+[1258.04 --> 1263.78]  future the change law that we're talking about that we've got support coming from those sponsors
+[1263.78 --> 1270.04]  that make it possible expensive equipment like video gear and stuff like that has been able to get
+[1270.04 --> 1276.64]  uh acquired so some hints on what's coming in the future um has has been able to got been gotten
+[1276.64 --> 1282.36]  because we have their support and so that's that's really awesome yeah just looping back around to
+[1282.36 --> 1290.24]  your uh the world being small now and and all the support we get around the world excuse me uh one
+[1290.24 --> 1295.90]  thing that we did this year which has worked out really well is we started a specific repository on
+[1295.90 --> 1302.76]  github called ping so github.com slash the change log slash ping i believe is the url that's right
+[1302.76 --> 1310.74]  and that is a centralized place for um listeners readers what have you friends of the show can come
+[1310.74 --> 1317.68]  and let us know about stuff so whether it's your own stuff um whether it's an idea for the show um
+[1317.68 --> 1321.84]  a project that you just started or something you need help on looking for a new maintainer
+[1321.84 --> 1330.64]  whatever it is um you can open up a new issue on ping and um we will look at that and we will
+[1330.64 --> 1337.24]  possibly promote it whether it be on the blog or uh in weekly or uh on twitter or all three
+[1337.24 --> 1342.86]  possibly even end up on the podcast yeah um and people have really been using that in fact we got
+[1342.86 --> 1348.34]  kind of backlogged there for a few months uh to the point where uh we needed to start working
+[1348.34 --> 1352.86]  working down the backlog but uh some really cool stuff has come from there obviously you know
+[1352.86 --> 1359.50]  we're out there keeping our thumb on the pulse but there's so much open source and um you know one of
+[1359.50 --> 1366.34]  the the common comments that we get is that you know our content is too specifically focused around
+[1366.34 --> 1372.30]  either ruby or javascript or the web and i think that's a completely valid criticism and something that
+[1372.30 --> 1378.74]  we're we're striving uh to make better but one of the ways to help us make that better
+[1378.74 --> 1384.78]  is by sending us content into the ping repo yeah absolutely because we look at all those things
+[1384.78 --> 1390.96]  and uh we may ask for more information or may not feel like we're necessarily you know experts in a
+[1390.96 --> 1397.08]  specific domain um but we've had a lot of good interactions there on ping this year and so just
+[1397.08 --> 1402.32]  want to say thanks to everybody who reached out and shared their stuff with us i know specifically
+[1402.32 --> 1409.00]  um we've had show topics coming through there not even people that want to be on themselves we get
+[1409.00 --> 1415.12]  those but someone that says hey this would be cool specifically our show on pearl happened just
+[1415.12 --> 1421.52]  completely because uh somebody came in on ping and said let's talk about pearl and then mentioned uh two
+[1421.52 --> 1426.92]  different people that would be great guests you know we contacted uh one of those and put up a show
+[1426.92 --> 1431.54]  and i think in the last few months i think that's one of been one of our best shows yeah and even
+[1431.54 --> 1436.00]  ovid who was the guest on the show of of that recommendation he's become a friend of the show
+[1436.00 --> 1441.84]  i would i wouldn't even mind you know uh dropping some more hints i wouldn't mind helping him start a
+[1441.84 --> 1448.40]  podcast of some sort because i was intrigued by and impressed by his relationship with pearl over the
+[1448.40 --> 1452.84]  years and just sort of his history with it and there's an audience there there's there's people who
+[1452.84 --> 1459.24]  really you know love pearl and it kind of enlightened me to to this new aspect of the that language yeah
+[1459.24 --> 1465.12]  i think what it did was it opened us to a whole new community inside open source that we never
+[1465.12 --> 1469.80]  really touched and we had a little bit of help with gabor here for a little while posting some pearl
+[1469.80 --> 1478.22]  stuff but myself personally um had had never actually seen how much was out there and yeah
+[1478.22 --> 1484.42]  ovid super interesting guy i'd love to talk him into starting the show maybe not even a maybe pearl
+[1484.42 --> 1490.68]  and poetry yeah listeners may not know offline after the call ended you know he went and talked about
+[1490.68 --> 1494.64]  poetry and writing with us and he loves it i could just sit there and listen to him talk about this
+[1494.64 --> 1499.56]  stuff for hours yeah he's got he's likable for sure definitely likable he couldn't go into politics
+[1499.56 --> 1508.64]  i wouldn't doubt that right um so that's that's uh yeah ping i think we started ping this year it was
+[1508.64 --> 1514.56]  funny because originally we had ping at the changelaw.com was an email so if you're sending email to that
+[1514.56 --> 1520.16]  don't do that go to the ping repo instead um and if you know anybody who thought about doing it or
+[1520.16 --> 1524.62]  might do it tell them don't do that go to the ping repo instead because we're trying to put a lot of
+[1524.62 --> 1531.18]  sort of uh sort of i guess inspired by getup which is now not called getup anymore chad whitaker
+[1531.18 --> 1536.44]  of being open just sort of inspired by that of not so much being an open company but we thought that
+[1536.44 --> 1541.42]  it would be best to have those kinds of conversations in the open versus closed email
+[1541.42 --> 1548.88]  where um we can at like for example the one of the more recent uh shows we might have in the future
+[1548.88 --> 1554.48]  on angular i can't recall the issue of the names but we might have a show in the future with
+[1554.48 --> 1560.50]  a previous person who was in the angular community and they've recently departed and we were able to
+[1560.50 --> 1564.56]  add that person and bring them into the conversation so you can't really do that with email it's kind
+[1564.56 --> 1570.66]  of weird whereas github issues sort of are the open playing ground and it's not just me or jared
+[1570.66 --> 1576.02]  or anyone else who's a part of the team here the changelaw it can be anyone to step in and help us
+[1576.02 --> 1581.66]  fine-tune the conversation that might come from it so that's i love that repo and what it's done for us so
+[1581.66 --> 1587.10]  yeah i encourage anybody who's who wants to help us cover open source better use that repo and those
+[1587.10 --> 1592.28]  issues to to help us do that yeah just to give an example of that so this the one you referred to
+[1592.28 --> 1597.86]  this is uh kevin mcgee who's just a listener of the show opened up a new issue that says guest idea
+[1597.86 --> 1602.92]  rob eisenberg keeper of durandal i never had to say that durandal js i don't know what to ask him that
+[1602.92 --> 1607.82]  an open source javascript project and his comment just says seriously who leaves google's angular
+[1607.82 --> 1612.70]  project especially now with version 2 being breathlessly debated maybe get this guy on the
+[1612.70 --> 1620.14]  line and he links to a specific blog post by uh this fella who is leaving angular and has uh
+[1620.14 --> 1625.98]  apparently had a previous project called durant i don't know what it's called man durandal
+[1625.98 --> 1635.96]  i don't know durandal durandal let's go with durandal and uh he went he went from that to angular
+[1635.96 --> 1642.48]  angular 2.0 stuff went back to durandal um interesting story interesting thing that's
+[1642.48 --> 1649.60]  happening in open source and um like you said we looped that guy in um i keep calling him that guy
+[1649.60 --> 1655.14]  let's get a sexual name so his name's rob yeah rob eisenberg eisenberg effect and we were able to
+[1655.14 --> 1660.42]  just uh at message him you know he came in talked back and forth and hopefully we'll be able to line
+[1660.42 --> 1668.60]  up something yeah in fact um kevin went on to give a list of how he would like the show to go like
+[1668.60 --> 1673.86]  yeah which was pretty cool he framed the show for us yeah because that show needs framing because we
+[1673.86 --> 1678.46]  don't want to turn it into just some sort of drama you know thing it needs to be very and we don't want
+[1678.46 --> 1684.96]  to turn it into a wine fest as he says um so really cool and uh hopefully we can put that together for
+[1684.96 --> 1691.34]  i'll go on record here while this is maybe part of the topic is that the changelog has never been
+[1691.34 --> 1699.70]  um about serving the trolls okay that's not what we are it's not the kind of show we are uh we will
+[1699.70 --> 1707.00]  never uh be about serving the trolls so just just that's out there if we had rob on the show it
+[1707.00 --> 1711.88]  wouldn't be about having him on to bash angler it would be about getting to the root of some of the
+[1711.88 --> 1716.78]  problems and i think that's that's good that might even lead us into um the conversation we
+[1716.78 --> 1723.36]  recently had with yehuda and tom dale about ember because they their path and their roadmap to ember
+[1723.36 --> 1730.44]  2.0 uh i think is a beacon of light of looking at what is good happening in other communities of open
+[1730.44 --> 1736.58]  source and other software communities and implementing in theirs and so when you identify a problem it's
+[1736.58 --> 1741.16]  easier to solve that problem and the only reason we would have uh rob on the show rob eisenberg
+[1741.16 --> 1747.28]  to talk about his concerns with angular and why he departed or whatever wouldn't be about to spread
+[1747.28 --> 1751.70]  drama would be about to to figure out you know what's the problem here you know what's the problem
+[1751.70 --> 1757.00]  here what what did he see as an issue and how can that community possibly rebound and and solve those
+[1757.00 --> 1761.56]  problems yeah for sure and just inform the community because some people are thinking like
+[1761.56 --> 1766.64]  should i use angular should i use this should i use that and then it's like should i use ember uh versus
+[1766.64 --> 1771.68]  angular and that helps you make a more informed decision as a developer and possibly even save your job
+[1771.68 --> 1779.24]  absolutely man uh let's see what else we got on what else we got on the list here who else
+[1779.24 --> 1783.04]  want to thank we would be remiss to not mention a few other people that helped us out this year
+[1783.04 --> 1789.14]  especially our new editor yes aaron aaron who's listening to this now by the way as he's editing this
+[1789.14 --> 1798.42]  so aaron thank you uh aaron it's funny uh the story behind aaron so i used to host a show with uh
+[1798.42 --> 1805.78]  for those who are into design or on the design side of uh of web development or development in general
+[1805.78 --> 1813.06]  probably know a name drew wilson drew wilson is famous for creating pictos uh and about a zillion
+[1813.06 --> 1821.98]  other projects i can't even name off because he's crazy like that um and jared uh um arandu was the
+[1821.98 --> 1829.06]  the person who started this blog called the industry um and then we did a podcast called the industry
+[1829.06 --> 1835.00]  radio show and when we did that we got an email from a guy named aaron and so i went back to that
+[1835.00 --> 1839.40]  same person was like hey aaron i run a different show now called the changelog we could really use some
+[1839.40 --> 1844.00]  help because if you all noticed those who listened to the show religiously over the years
+[1844.00 --> 1852.98]  um the times we've ebbed and flowed has been whenever me uh jared or any other co-host or any other
+[1852.98 --> 1858.84]  person that was working with me like andrew we were just too busy in our lives to to do the changelog
+[1858.84 --> 1864.94]  every week and edit it and it's a lot of work it's a lot of time commitment and unless we have sponsors
+[1864.94 --> 1869.58]  and stuff like that it's just really hard to always say yes to it even though we love it so much
+[1869.58 --> 1876.46]  um so having aaron on on on the team helps us make sure that i'm not the bottleneck on editing so
+[1876.46 --> 1883.32]  for the duration of all the changelog i've edited every single show and so i've been on the show i've
+[1883.32 --> 1889.44]  edited the show or i've you know helped edit the show um or helped create the show to a degree
+[1889.44 --> 1896.14]  because there's lots of shows where just when was the host um but yeah it's a time suck but aaron
+[1896.14 --> 1903.00]  is great at it so the last five shows if you've not heard a difference it's because he's that awesome
+[1903.00 --> 1907.78]  there you go and so thank you aaron for your support and making the show awesome and making
+[1907.78 --> 1911.94]  it sound awesome and we look forward to you know a deeper relationship with aaron in the future with
+[1911.94 --> 1918.36]  whatever else we come up with here because we're crazy and then uh i guess maybe the other person to
+[1918.36 --> 1924.58]  to thank would be five by five and dan benjamin for their support where uh i think what was it
+[1924.58 --> 1932.04]  was it this year or was it 2013 it was 2013 trying to get my my my years correct here because 2013 was
+[1932.04 --> 1939.60]  a crazy year uh 2013 about midway through we decided to um move from just being just the changelog on
+[1939.60 --> 1946.28]  the changelog.com to syndicate through five by five so we joined the five by five team we moved all of
+[1946.28 --> 1951.88]  our shows over there we stopped numbering with versions uh some old school drama there we decided
+[1951.88 --> 1959.10]  to actually just call them you know episode 85 versus 0.8.5 and uh that means you that you never
+[1959.10 --> 1966.62]  hit 1.0 yeah we never hit 1.0 oh that's a shame some projects never hit 1.0 yeah it's just paperware
+[1966.62 --> 1971.06]  is that semantic versioning or what kind of versioning were you guys well you know we got we got yeah it
+[1971.06 --> 1976.16]  wasn't semantic versioning so no it was definitely not and that was the the whole thing like when we
+[1976.16 --> 1980.70]  did the versioning uh the hardcore developers were like well that's not semantic versioning and then
+[1980.70 --> 1984.86]  we're like well seriously people actually said that i'm not even kidding you we've gotten hate mail
+[1984.86 --> 1990.32]  about that not bad but definitely yeah you know haters gonna hate kind of thing uh-huh um i can pull
+[1990.32 --> 1994.00]  up the email and quote directly if you want but i don't think that would serve the audience any any
+[1994.00 --> 2000.54]  better but yeah so five by five has been great working with dan has been great uh he and had in the team
+[2000.54 --> 2007.56]  over there have just definitely uh helped helped us over the years be a better show and and reach a
+[2007.56 --> 2013.04]  larger bigger audience and you know so their support has been great uh we've had tons of great guests
+[2013.04 --> 2018.56]  all this year i didn't i didn't write a list of all of our guests this year maybe you might uh jared
+[2018.56 --> 2025.20]  have the the list in front of you um but i know we've had so many great shows this year i think we've
+[2025.20 --> 2030.36]  done i'm gonna try and guess at how many shows we've done this year let me scan the list real
+[2030.36 --> 2042.80]  quick we've probably done well that was no black friday we've done from episode 117 to episode 34
+[2042.80 --> 2051.28]  so we've done you know roughly 20 some shows this year which is not weekly we are weekly podcast it
+[2051.28 --> 2055.80]  does not broadcast weekly we try as i said we've had some ebbs and flows and we're not going to digress
+[2055.80 --> 2062.96]  to that but um a lot of great shows this year so this year started out with jeremy sands um talking
+[2062.96 --> 2069.06]  about go for cass and go and martini um i didn't really plan to go down all the people that have
+[2069.06 --> 2072.54]  been on the show this year but just lots of great guests this year we got thankful for as well so
+[2072.54 --> 2083.36]  pretty pretty cool yeah chad whittaker uh tim caswell justin searles olivier lacan yeah i'll say that
+[2083.36 --> 2088.82]  one right i'll say that one for you yes livier of course the epic keep a change log yes of the
+[2088.82 --> 2092.84]  change log that was an epic show a lot of people love that show that was a great one so if you're
+[2092.84 --> 2097.64]  listening go back and listen to 127 that was great well that guy's just a character yeah super
+[2097.64 --> 2104.68]  enjoyable and uh had a very uplifting message which is to keep a change log yes that's as easy as it can
+[2104.68 --> 2111.88]  be keep a change log um yeah some other other good names i guess that i enjoyed talking to parker
+[2111.88 --> 2120.32]  more i did that one alone um uh parker runs and took over the jekyll project and if you use jekyll to
+[2120.32 --> 2126.66]  blog then you know parker you probably uh you're definitely using his code of course but he's he's uh
+[2126.66 --> 2134.06]  he's a cool guy as well i think he now works at uh visco which is uh runs the app it's the ios app
+[2134.06 --> 2141.70]  called visco visco cam okay um so he went to work there i believe i think he was um like an intern
+[2141.70 --> 2145.90]  of some sort at github i can't recall what his exact title was but he was working with github on
+[2145.90 --> 2150.14]  jekyll and github page and he probably still does that i haven't caught up with him in a while yeah
+[2150.14 --> 2155.70]  but that was a cool show too jekyll's cool like yeah i missed out on that show i i i remember parker
+[2155.70 --> 2161.34]  very specifically because i used to watch jekyll on github like very closely yeah because you know
+[2161.34 --> 2166.42]  back i'm sure you guys talked about all this but it was you know slowly rotting for a long time it
+[2166.42 --> 2175.54]  was bad um and i watched i watched this guy swoop in and just take save the day over and i'm like who
+[2175.54 --> 2180.60]  is this guy at first because he just commented on every single issue just like hopped in there
+[2180.60 --> 2186.96]  it's like someone just decided i'm gonna save this thing and uh just really just gave it a 180
+[2186.96 --> 2193.50]  and it was pretty amazing to watch one where he got that bravado um i don't know where he got it
+[2193.50 --> 2198.88]  but what i will say is that we definitely talked about that on that show so if if you're listening
+[2198.88 --> 2203.86]  and you want to know more about what jared's talking about with parker and how he swooped in
+[2203.86 --> 2209.26]  and took over from tp dubs or tom presson warner as you know him from being a co-founder at github
+[2209.26 --> 2215.12]  um he talks about that there he talks a little bit about his bravado too where he gets that uh
+[2215.12 --> 2220.16]  that kind of character he's he's uh i believe he's german so he's got that going for him
+[2220.16 --> 2227.02]  um and i know he speaks german um not that that gives you any reason to have bravado but that's
+[2227.02 --> 2232.54]  you know he's he's got some oomph behind him he's he's a character for sure great guy and great in
+[2232.54 --> 2239.58]  open source too i think he's his he's all green on his github he's all green i'm sure so maybe another
+[2239.58 --> 2243.78]  thing we can talk about before we uh sign off here it's something i believe weekly started this year did
+[2243.78 --> 2252.02]  it not weekly did it start this year um did it start this year i don't know i know we did uh 29
+[2252.02 --> 2257.46]  issues i'm thinking that's less than half of it let's see less than a year okay we started shipping
+[2257.46 --> 2264.48]  the change law weekly which is our weekly email august 15th 2013 so it didn't really begin this year
+[2264.48 --> 2272.60]  and uh the reason why we don't have as many issues as we should is because in april on april 5th or
+[2272.60 --> 2279.84]  in or around that space i ran out of gas okay and uh you came in and saved the day and we'll talk
+[2279.84 --> 2285.20]  that's a that's a good conversation too because it sort of revived this newsletter i loved doing it but
+[2285.20 --> 2295.02]  it was like just a ton of work because i uh need help and you provided that help we'll dig into what
+[2295.02 --> 2301.92]  that means here in a bit but yeah april 5th i ran out of gas i had issue 30 started and never shipped
+[2301.92 --> 2308.06]  it and i bummed me out because uh we got lots of good feedback from the change all weekly so we've got
+[2308.06 --> 2314.94]  you know several thousand subscribers that read this thing every week and it's just we share headlines we
+[2314.94 --> 2320.84]  share repos we share the most recent issue or sorry recent episode of the show and we share a couple
+[2320.84 --> 2328.04]  videos and now we all we also share some some uh projects or mentions from the ping repo we talked
+[2328.04 --> 2333.16]  about earlier right so we're plugging things that happen there so we're sort of given a way to
+[2333.16 --> 2339.48]  have everybody sort of have a say so of what's what's being mentioned on there not a huge degree but at
+[2339.48 --> 2347.16]  least enough sure and you know ping is a big source of of uh you know incoming awareness of what's
+[2347.16 --> 2352.66]  happening open source for us and obviously we watch twitter and the known uh the known hashtags out
+[2352.66 --> 2358.20]  there carefully and sort of curate to a degree headlines and projects and what's going on so it's
+[2358.20 --> 2363.56]  been fun shipping the change law weekly it's it's been great well let me provide a little context around
+[2363.56 --> 2371.88]  this burnout around this burnout of yours because uh you shipped 29 episodes of weekly in a row which is a
+[2371.88 --> 2379.24]  newsletter that ships on saturday morning first of all uh secondly you were hand coding everything
+[2379.80 --> 2387.00]  pretty much in html i mean it's an erb template um but you know you're inside your what do you what
+[2387.00 --> 2391.40]  do you use to write you sublime text or you have a text yeah okay so you got your text editor open
+[2392.04 --> 2397.80]  and you're had hand coding these things out all by yourself for roughly half of i mean 29 weeks that's
+[2397.80 --> 2406.20]  about half a year yeah on friday nights right yeah i would i would collect so i i had this philosophy
+[2406.20 --> 2411.24]  of capture always so i would yeah you know in all sorts of different ways which we still use that
+[2411.24 --> 2416.28]  right yeah i would email myself essentially a link i thought was interesting and then later in the week
+[2416.28 --> 2422.12]  i would sit down and go through this entire repository of of interesting links and just kind of comb through
+[2422.12 --> 2429.32]  them and create this newsletter based on that and nobody can keep that pace going no no it's not one
+[2429.32 --> 2435.40]  person no right it was and i would write you know i would write the you know detail i didn't just copy
+[2435.40 --> 2439.72]  and paste it was you know i took some intentions with that not pat myself on the back but i really
+[2439.72 --> 2446.60]  wanted to make sure that the point of of it was to give a clear curated voice of what's happening so
+[2447.16 --> 2451.80]  almost a summary of what happened that week in open source it wasn't comprehensive but it was sort of
+[2452.36 --> 2458.44]  curated based on a perspective so you sort of have that going for you but it was personal it wasn't
+[2458.44 --> 2463.48]  just robotic and that was the intention of it and and after a while i sort of burned out on uh on being
+[2463.48 --> 2469.24]  able to keep that up and then i got bummed out couldn't automate it fast enough and then took a i
+[2469.24 --> 2474.20]  don't know like five month break and then you came in and saved the day for me well let's just say that
+[2474.20 --> 2479.00]  the readers came in because you know we get pinged all the time not just on ping but also via the contact
+[2479.00 --> 2485.80]  form and on twitter and we just became slowly it's kind of like what's that chinese water torture
+[2485.80 --> 2489.64]  where it just keeps dripping the water dripping on your forehead yeah and eventually you just can't
+[2489.64 --> 2495.64]  stand it and uh so many people loved you know weekly that they just kept saying where is it
+[2495.64 --> 2499.88]  what happened to you guys you know some people are mad some people are just bummed out
+[2499.88 --> 2505.80]  and i also was a weekly reader so like you said you did the entire thing yourself so i would just
+[2505.80 --> 2512.76]  read it on saturday mornings so um i was like we got to fix this somehow and there's just no way that
+[2512.76 --> 2517.72]  what you're currently doing would scale right um so i said well i'll get involved and i'll help
+[2518.36 --> 2524.28]  bring the content in but now all of a sudden you need collaboration tools right you can't just i mean i guess
+[2524.28 --> 2529.48]  we could have had a repo i mean it is a repo on github but yeah um you know we could have just
+[2529.48 --> 2535.64]  hand coded that same file and then just pushed and stuff but we needed more high fidelity uh
+[2536.76 --> 2541.80]  collaboration tools and we were already using trello for pretty much everything else
+[2542.36 --> 2549.48]  um we use it for managing the podcast like you said the radar where adam emails in his uh links
+[2549.48 --> 2555.32]  that he finds go into a it's the change the radar it's our open source radar yeah right um the
+[2555.32 --> 2562.12]  podcast uh we were doing some of the editorial for a while in trello um and so i'm not sure if it was
+[2562.12 --> 2568.92]  you or me that said why don't we just managed weekly inside of trello it was you it was not me it was me
+[2568.92 --> 2573.16]  it was totally your idea like this is not at all my idea i didn't even i mean i knew trello had an
+[2573.16 --> 2577.00]  api and i knew we can do something with it i just never thought to do what we did with it and
+[2577.00 --> 2581.80]  yeah the whole thing was totally your idea i'm not taking any credit for it at all i'm a user of
+[2581.80 --> 2585.32]  it i was trying to share some credit with you no i don't want any credit it's all you man i mean
+[2585.32 --> 2590.84]  that was totally i was like really that's a great idea and like you let you outlayed the idea of how
+[2590.84 --> 2597.16]  you know trello is basically based on cards and uh titles they support markdown you know obviously
+[2597.16 --> 2602.04]  it's it's column based anybody who uses trello knows that we can make our own process in it and
+[2602.04 --> 2605.40]  like you laid out this idea and i'm like we could do that and you're like yeah and
+[2605.40 --> 2613.48]  you made it happen well i think i think it's a good idea the code is is trivial it's probably
+[2613.48 --> 2618.60]  less than 200 lines of total code to get it all going and we still have middleman in the process
+[2618.60 --> 2623.64]  so it's not it's not rendering html it's actually kind of dorky because it renders erb which renders
+[2623.64 --> 2628.44]  html but that was just the fastest way i could get it working um because i was already doing it
+[2628.44 --> 2633.72]  middleman we were i was using middleman and i was using erb templates not hamil templates to
+[2633.72 --> 2638.52]  create the the front end view which ends up becoming the html for the newsletter so right
+[2638.52 --> 2642.36]  middleman was in there not just the middleman it was actually middleman ruby middleman
+[2643.24 --> 2649.40]  yeah and so the wins are huge here so if you think about what our content is it's a series of
+[2650.12 --> 2657.80]  of posts um grouped grouped posts and they're ordered and they have titles and links and content
+[2657.80 --> 2663.08]  right copy yeah and that's basically what a trello card or trello is it's a list of lists that have
+[2663.08 --> 2669.80]  cards each of which has a title and a description which can support markdown yeah um the big wins were
+[2669.80 --> 2676.76]  like you can now comment around a specific uh card and that comment those comments are just meta right
+[2676.76 --> 2682.68]  they don't actually go into the issue but we can discuss certain uh stories inside of the issue
+[2682.68 --> 2690.28]  um we can post from anywhere you can email in stuff um they have apps so you can you know do it on your
+[2690.28 --> 2699.32]  iphone or on your tablet or whatever um you can just drag and drop reorder things uh it just it
+[2699.32 --> 2704.44]  actually makes a whole lot of sense it changed the world of it i mean like i let's let's take it for
+[2704.44 --> 2710.92]  example issue 34 which will ship tomorrow um and when we first got on this call uh jerry was like hey
+[2710.92 --> 2714.12]  we're gonna ship weekly stay up tomorrow and i was like ah i think we might take a break he's like
+[2714.12 --> 2720.28]  well it's mostly done because jared went in here and and took care of projects and repos there's a
+[2720.28 --> 2725.80]  video link in there and a couple from the ping repo and i'll go in there and add some headlines and
+[2725.80 --> 2731.72]  some preview text for or the editor's note and call it pretty much a day and and ship it and if it
+[2731.72 --> 2739.48]  weren't for the collaboration that trello offers us to make this happen and you know i would i would be
+[2739.48 --> 2744.60]  behind the eight ball it could it's friday we're recording this on a friday at 4 p.m central standard
+[2744.60 --> 2751.32]  time and it's got to ship tomorrow morning you know if i had to put together what is the change law
+[2751.32 --> 2757.80]  weekly myself tonight you know it would be back to april 5th again and i'd be upset yeah it's just not
+[2757.80 --> 2766.04]  good right and for me i mean i'll just say that using trello in this capacity almost makes it more fun
+[2766.04 --> 2772.12]  like definitely just makes so much sense that it's like reinvigorates you to want to do it because
+[2772.12 --> 2778.04]  it's so stinking easy compared to anything else um like like i said i'm a big jekyll fan so i've
+[2778.04 --> 2784.52]  been using jekyll for my blog for years and there is still something about like i don't know i live in
+[2784.52 --> 2789.72]  my text editor all day as a as a developer so you know writing inside of a text editor i like markdown
+[2789.72 --> 2794.92]  but um i don't know there's still this barrier of like publishing and all that that happens with
+[2794.92 --> 2799.56]  jekyll with me um i know there's a lot of tools that are out there that are trying to you know like
+[2799.56 --> 2806.12]  remove that friction and provide web-based tools or mobile tools most of them i get ideas for my
+[2806.12 --> 2812.04]  writing on the go or i'm on the go and i want to write a little something and the fact that i can just
+[2812.04 --> 2817.40]  throw open in the case of weekly just throw open the trello app and just write a description real
+[2817.40 --> 2823.00]  quick or rearrange a thing just makes me do it more often it's really cool so um we have had some
+[2823.00 --> 2828.44]  people who are interested in that process and i have a blog post that's at least it's outline it's
+[2828.44 --> 2833.00]  an outline format right now i'll be filling in the details and we'll publish that here sometime
+[2833.00 --> 2840.28]  hopefully in january yeah we'll share uh i think we talked about at some point open sourcing the code
+[2840.28 --> 2844.44]  too it's not that we don't want to keep it or anything like that it's just not shareable uh i don't
+[2844.44 --> 2849.88]  know how to describe that shareable in a good way um at this point it's sort of just hodgepodge just it
+[2849.88 --> 2854.12]  doesn't it's not going to make any sense to anybody else but right you know we want to open up that
+[2854.12 --> 2859.88]  process and share that code and share the process that that you came up with and share some screenshots
+[2859.88 --> 2865.80]  of what we do and right i think i think like i said the code is is pretty trivial you're just using the
+[2865.80 --> 2869.88]  the trello api and it's just a few hundred lines it's very specific to what we're doing but i think
+[2869.88 --> 2875.64]  the process itself is novel yeah and so that would be even more beneficial to share that exactly very
+[2875.64 --> 2882.60]  novel i think it brilliant brilliant brilliant idea honestly and what i love most about it too is that
+[2883.16 --> 2891.56]  whenever um and if ever we you and i begin to invite others in to help curate and and create what is
+[2891.56 --> 2896.28]  the change law weekly or maybe even other newsletters in the future yeah um we can just invite them to
+[2896.28 --> 2902.60]  that trello board right you know and boom you know they're an editor of of what's there and that's
+[2902.60 --> 2907.96]  their accounts are there commenting their label we use labels like a draft and a sponsor labels
+[2908.52 --> 2911.40]  to help generate markup there's so much infrastructure already there
+[2912.28 --> 2916.84]  that it's like you i just feel like we're cheating almost yeah i do i feel like we're cheating too
+[2916.84 --> 2922.28]  because because it's so easy now and everybody who's listening to this is probably like i want to see
+[2922.28 --> 2927.32]  what you're talking about well you're gonna have to wait till 2015 because that's where we're going
+[2927.32 --> 2934.12]  we're wrapping up 2014 um we'll we'll blog about it jared's got a draft in place please when you write
+[2934.12 --> 2939.24]  that jared don't give me any credit i want to just be a consumer of it you're the creator of it it was
+[2939.24 --> 2945.64]  such an awesome idea and i'm so thankful too for that because like you said it sort of liberated us
+[2945.64 --> 2951.16]  because now the process is fun we can drag and drop things we can comment back and forth before the
+[2951.16 --> 2958.36]  process was totally behind the scenes it was totally sort of in my inbox and i was my own enemy i was my
+[2958.36 --> 2964.44]  own bottleneck and it was non-collaborative and now it's collaborative and that's really great so i
+[2964.44 --> 2969.24]  think it's it's just turned out really awesome yeah i think the credit needs to go to fog creek because
+[2969.24 --> 2974.68]  they they they created such a versatile tool i mean i use this thing for so many different use cases who
+[2974.68 --> 2981.64]  would have thought that a list of lists would be so stinking useful yeah and it really is so yeah
+[2982.76 --> 2989.08]  well let's uh we did have some of the topics to mention is that do you think we should even just do
+[2989.08 --> 2995.56]  a quick read of those and then call it call it a show or what you know it's too teasing i don't know
+[2995.56 --> 3001.48]  man your call all right i'll read them all real quick uh this is just some topics we we planned on
+[3001.48 --> 3006.20]  maybe because this was totally an off the cuff show so if you're listening this far thank you
+[3006.68 --> 3012.68]  it was just a an end of year thanks show from us we we love doing the show we love the fact that you
+[3012.68 --> 3018.76]  all listen to the show we love doing the show for you and and for the community and so when we had
+[3018.76 --> 3024.68]  some scheduling conflicts happen we couldn't not ship an issue or another episode before the year ended
+[3024.68 --> 3029.32]  and we figured it made just just a lot of sense to come back and just say thanks to everyone along the
+[3029.32 --> 3035.48]  the way that have um helped us supported us you the listeners you the members sponsors and everyone
+[3035.48 --> 3041.32]  else who have made this show possible just to say some thanks but um some topics we did write down we
+[3041.32 --> 3046.52]  weren't sure we're gonna go through but uh i'll read them real quick here and feel free to stop me
+[3046.52 --> 3053.80]  jared if if anything tickles your fancy so you got go on github that's recently go is now um open source
+[3053.80 --> 3058.20]  on github it's it's always been out there but it hasn't always been on github and they turned five this
+[3058.20 --> 3062.20]  year so that's that's kind of neat and that sort of shows the history of the change log too because
+[3062.68 --> 3068.36]  the the third show of the change log had rob pike on it and that was when we first started so that's
+[3068.36 --> 3073.72]  five years old uh dotnet core is open source now which is kind of neat we just had a show on that
+[3074.60 --> 3080.04]  uh also moved to github so it seems like the trend this year has been so and so moving to github and
+[3080.04 --> 3087.64]  actually if you put that search into twitter moved to github so m-o-v-e-d to github you'll find all
+[3087.64 --> 3095.00]  all sorts of cool projects moving from xyz to github gatorius whatever uh just uh follow that that
+[3095.00 --> 3100.36]  little search term on twitter you'll find some cool stuff um node.js has had tons of changes
+[3100.36 --> 3106.84]  um we started out the end of last year with aaron hammer talking about black friday and um
+[3107.48 --> 3112.44]  node doing really awesome for walmart we ended that pretty much 2013 talking about that and here in
+[3112.44 --> 3118.20]  2014 it's you know become you know one of the most used uh programming languages out there and
+[3118.20 --> 3122.28]  then here at the end of the year we've had some uh i guess the last six months we've had some drama
+[3122.28 --> 3128.04]  happen we've had some corporate weirdness happen some corporate weird sponsorship happening that we
+[3128.04 --> 3134.20]  don't want to sort of um we're not that's not what this show's about but we plan to dig into some of
+[3134.20 --> 3139.88]  that if at all possible and then here most recently it was forked and now there's a fork of it called
+[3139.88 --> 3149.00]  io.js and that's that's sort of uh crazy there we talked about ember the road map to 2.0 uh we
+[3149.00 --> 3154.20]  talked a little bit about something unique that uh yehuda and tom share which was learning from others
+[3154.92 --> 3161.72]  um in the community and focusing on community was with some things they've done there um rust
+[3161.72 --> 3167.88]  they're planning on a 1.0 soon uh we hope to do a show soon with their team steve klabnik who is
+[3167.88 --> 3172.12]  sort of i guess part of the changelog he doesn't really contribute too often but he's sort of like
+[3172.12 --> 3178.92]  a an alumni for for many years now he plays a feature here and there on shows we plan to have
+[3178.92 --> 3185.64]  a show with um with him back talking to yehuda about uh json api and some cool stuff they're doing
+[3185.64 --> 3190.84]  there but some other news about them was with was steve and yehuda joined as as core with the rest team
+[3190.84 --> 3197.72]  uh docker versus core west there's some drama there some missteps there we'd like to dig into and we
+[3197.72 --> 3204.12]  plan to um as we mentioned earlier with angular there's 2.0 concerns with backward compatibility
+[3204.84 --> 3210.44]  and just some some unique things is that are happening in the in the in the community there
+[3211.24 --> 3214.84]  sadly we had some people pass away i don't know if it's a it's definitely not a comprehensive list of
+[3214.84 --> 3221.64]  people passing away but no uh jim weirich and uh ezra zimatovich both highly impacted the community
+[3221.64 --> 3228.20]  those are two that we particularly uh particularly covered and earmarked to a degree and um definitely
+[3228.20 --> 3233.64]  sad about their passing wish their family uh nothing but blessings of peace and comfort in this time
+[3234.36 --> 3240.12]  um especially going into holidays it's never easy having a loved one be lost me and my family we
+[3240.12 --> 3244.68]  personally have someone who's a loved one who's lost and so we're going into this holiday season with
+[3245.24 --> 3252.76]  with um a lot of mourning but also some joy of of this new year but um some tough times for sure
+[3253.96 --> 3259.72]  um i would say the php spec one that was pretty neat having uh sarah goldman on the show
+[3260.84 --> 3269.48]  she's got such a huge deep knowledge of php uh what she does at facebook and keeping it fast and hhvm and
+[3269.48 --> 3275.80]  i mean amazing amazing work so having her on the show we plan to have more of her and her cohorts at
+[3276.04 --> 3281.32]  facebook on the show to talk about hack and other stuff and you know kudos to facebook too to step in
+[3281.32 --> 3287.32]  and help unify the community there too in addition i mean facebook you know they're not my favorite
+[3287.32 --> 3292.60]  company out there but these guys have been really killing it with open source lately uh the flux stuff
+[3292.60 --> 3299.40]  they did this year you know uh react which is is growing more and more popular yep um yeah the php
+[3299.40 --> 3304.60]  stuff hack it's just like one thing after the next facebook just keeps releasing more and more
+[3305.08 --> 3309.88]  high quality open source stuff and you know you say there's a couple other names and we haven't had
+[3309.88 --> 3316.76]  shows on those right and i'll say you know from my point of view i wish we could cover more i it's not
+[3316.76 --> 3321.00]  that we don't because we don't want to it's because we just don't have all the time in the world this is
+[3321.88 --> 3328.36]  to a degree a hobby for us you know for both of us even and neither of us are doing this full time so we
+[3328.36 --> 3334.84]  are covering as much as we can as well as we can and that's that's been our goal so just to kind of
+[3334.84 --> 3340.60]  hang on that comment there um debian was forked i don't have any more details about that but that was
+[3341.16 --> 3346.36]  news for everyone else we did talk about it in the change law weekly so if you don't subscribe to that
+[3346.36 --> 3351.40]  we've talked about it lots of this show you should go to uh the change law.com slash weekly and subscribe
+[3351.40 --> 3359.24]  um we had shows on pearl which is a first for us and dot net uh microsoft has never been on this show
+[3359.24 --> 3365.32]  they've been mentioned as far as new get and and whatnot but that's about it we had core team members
+[3365.32 --> 3371.16]  from the dot net core team on the show we had ovid on talking about pearl so we'd like to expand more on
+[3371.16 --> 3378.36]  that and uh let me go to twitter real quick because i wanted to pull up this person's name uh andy i don't
+[3378.36 --> 3387.88]  know how to see your last name i won't try but uh he's at and s h uh s-c-h-w-a on twitter he uh
+[3387.88 --> 3392.76]  gave us a comment which i think is is nice that will help us frame some new stuff we'll work on
+[3392.76 --> 3400.36]  for 2015 which is to better cover emacs linux rust c plus plus other um functional programming languages
+[3400.36 --> 3406.36]  like closure we'd love to do that and like you said earlier jared ping is one way to help us do that
+[3406.36 --> 3412.76]  so we're we're a two-man and some army around here we got beverly on the team as well but our team
+[3412.76 --> 3417.80]  has grown and it's shrunk um actually because it's you know it's it's hard to keep everybody
+[3418.28 --> 3424.36]  keeping a change log you know what i mean so it's tough work man this is tough work there
+[3424.36 --> 3430.84]  you see what i did there yeah for sure i mean we'd love to cover more system level stuff um we've seen
+[3430.84 --> 3436.92]  you know specifically go and rust have really exploded in the last couple years go um you know
+[3436.92 --> 3441.32]  has become really established rust still hasn't hit 1.0 but there's so much excitement around the
+[3441.32 --> 3449.56]  possibilities there um c and c plus plus you know we those are things that you and i just do not come
+[3449.56 --> 3455.16]  across very often at least in a way that we can know for sure like this is cool this is not worthy
+[3455.16 --> 3459.72]  um we're doing our best but uh we need y'all help if if we're going to cover those things and if
+[3459.72 --> 3464.36]  anybody out there is super passionate about these particular topics and want to see shows on these
+[3465.00 --> 3469.80]  want to see more coverage whether it's in the newsletter or on the website reach out to us and
+[3469.80 --> 3475.48]  definitely get in touch yeah let's uh we got the ping repo you can email us directly though although
+[3475.48 --> 3480.52]  ping is probably the best way to do it just get in touch if you've got ideas we're we're an open book
+[3480.52 --> 3485.32]  we might not be always always be able to deliver on everything we we would like to and like i said
+[3485.32 --> 3492.12]  we try our best but um as i said that topic list there we just rattled off was not a comprehensive
+[3492.12 --> 3497.88]  list it was just something that's been uh roughly pulled together of from recent issues of the weekly
+[3497.88 --> 3504.52]  and the blog and the podcast itself but uh i'll just say it's been great serving the open source
+[3504.52 --> 3510.44]  community um this year just doing whatever we can we want to do more of it and whatever you can
+[3510.44 --> 3515.40]  do the listener whatever you can do as as a listener and as a as a reader of the change log
+[3515.40 --> 3519.96]  you know become a member that's the easiest way to support us um subscribe to weekly tell people
+[3519.96 --> 3525.08]  about weekly that's the easiest way you can support us we would do something like a patreon or
+[3525.72 --> 3530.84]  get up or something like that but honestly our membership is our patreon our membership is our
+[3530.84 --> 3536.04]  get up that's the way we do it um we do it through stripe it's totally secure you support us
+[3536.04 --> 3540.20]  directly we don't got to share that money with anybody else it directly benefits and
+[3540.20 --> 3546.76]  supports jared and i making sure that we can keep a change log and keep supporting open source
+[3547.32 --> 3552.52]  maybe even go to more conferences and do some cool stuff like we will release here in the first part
+[3552.52 --> 3558.04]  of 2015 so i won't say what that is just yet but it involves video that's that's about it
+[3558.60 --> 3565.48]  um so what's the best way to close the show what do you think just say bye just say see in 2015
+[3565.48 --> 3572.44]  see you in 2015 that's it see you in 2015 that's it see you in 2015 so if you've listened this far
+[3572.44 --> 3576.84]  thank you very much uh we appreciate your support and we'll see you in 2015
+[3576.84 --> 3585.56]  contractualization 7%
+[3585.56 --> 3589.88]  stay until you're out for date
+[3590.04 --> 3593.56]  see you as soonی
+[3593.56 --> 3623.54]  We'll see you next time.

Gittip and Open Companies_transcript.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,791 @@
+[0.00 --> 16.32]  welcome back everyone this is the changelog where a member supported blog podcast and weekly email
+[16.32 --> 21.40]  covering what's fresh and what's new in open source check out the blog at the changelog.com
+[21.40 --> 27.84]  our past shows at five by five dot tv slash changelog and you're listening to episode 123
+[27.84 --> 33.10]  jared and i we caught up with chad whittaker the founder of gidip and we talked to him about what's
+[33.10 --> 37.30]  new this year with gidip and the directions they're taking today's show is sponsored by our
+[37.30 --> 43.04]  friends at rackspace code ship and top tile we'll tell you a bit more about code ship and top tile
+[43.04 --> 48.34]  later in the show but our friends at rackspace they continue to dedicate themselves to support
+[48.34 --> 53.88]  the open source and developer community and they're doing it even more so with their developer
+[53.88 --> 59.94]  discount now you can go make something awesome on them people who listen to the show you're makers
+[59.94 --> 64.54]  each day you get up thinking of something new awesome and amazing and you want to put your
+[64.54 --> 69.72]  imagination and your skills to work and rackspace would like to give you something special just to
+[69.72 --> 75.16]  say thank you so sign up today for their developer discount and get three hundred dollars in free
+[75.16 --> 80.74]  cloud services on your rackspace cloud account this discount applies to new products like their
+[80.74 --> 87.08]  performance cloud servers and cloud queues as well you're even eligible for early access to new
+[87.08 --> 91.68]  features and products that they roll out so that's that's pretty cool make something awesome and get
+[91.68 --> 98.10]  started today go to developer.rackspace.com slash dev trial and now on to the show
+[98.10 --> 106.20]  we're joined today by an awesome friend previous uh previous person that's been on the show before
+[106.20 --> 112.54]  chad whitaker founder of get up uh i'm adam stakovic and we also have the managing editor jared santo on the
+[112.54 --> 117.54]  show so we got uh three people on the call today a fun show lineup it's kind of like a
+[117.54 --> 123.10]  uh it's definitely like a reconvening right chad because you were on the show almost to the day this time
+[123.10 --> 130.52]  last year absolutely and our annual may call our check-in yes and and you got a birthday coming up soon not
+[130.52 --> 137.30]  personally but get it all right yep get it get it is gonna be two years old on june 1st june 1st wow
+[137.30 --> 145.54]  couple weeks here scary right you know this has been a really big milestone in my mind since i started
+[145.54 --> 152.40]  i've kind of thought two years is is the amount of time i've given myself to work on this and see if
+[152.40 --> 158.08]  this is going to go anywhere so we're coming up on that milestone so it is scary maybe yeah uh kind of
+[158.08 --> 162.82]  definitely a chance to reflect uh you know on what's happened the past couple years and where
+[162.82 --> 170.18]  we are so when you say that uh does that does that mean there may be no future in get up or are you
+[170.18 --> 174.90]  thinking about quitting it i mean what's that was the question right okay right the question what's the
+[174.90 --> 182.88]  answer yeah the the answer is full steam ahead uh that's the good news uh yeah i mean i i kind of
+[182.88 --> 186.76]  said all right i'm gonna be heads down and i'm gonna just go for it right and i'm not gonna pay
+[186.76 --> 192.50]  attention to you know how fast we're growing or you know how well we're doing or what's going on
+[192.50 --> 198.44]  with it i'm not i'm gonna kind of like stay heads down and just work and plow ahead on it and then
+[198.44 --> 204.68]  at that two-year mark that's when i'll come up for air and say all right where are we you know is this
+[204.68 --> 210.20]  thing uh you know is this thing gonna work is this going anywhere do i still love working on it do i
+[210.20 --> 215.74]  not love working on it um you know and make a decision and you know the bottom line is i still
+[215.74 --> 222.96]  love working on it and we're growing for how deep we've set the plow i'm pretty encouraged by our
+[222.96 --> 229.06]  growth um when i compare myself to others i get discouraged but when i look at get up itself and
+[229.06 --> 233.90]  realize that it's something i still believe in and love doing uh you know that i'm encouraged so
+[233.90 --> 238.84]  you know the short answer is yes we're we're moving ahead full steam ahead on get it so chad for
+[238.84 --> 243.20]  those of us who weren't around last may i think that was episode 87 if anyone wants to go back and
+[243.20 --> 250.08]  listen can you just give us briefly the get up uh elevator pitch yes get it is a way to give money
+[250.08 --> 257.48]  every week to people and teams you believe in so the mission of get it is actually to enable an
+[257.48 --> 264.36]  economy of gratitude and generosity uh and practically what that means the way we're instantiating that is
+[264.36 --> 268.56]  giving money every week to people you believe in right so you're using somebody's open
+[268.56 --> 272.90]  source libraries and you really appreciate the work that you're that they're doing and you want
+[272.90 --> 277.50]  to show your appreciation and gratitude and you want to support them get up as a way to do that
+[277.50 --> 283.60]  uh by setting up a weekly recurring donation to them as small as a penny up to a hundred dollars a week
+[283.60 --> 289.30]  and it's a no strings attached gift that's uh that's one of the that that's where get it is on the scale
+[289.30 --> 295.80]  of crowdfunding from like investment through you know kickstarter i'm getting a sticker i'm getting a
+[295.80 --> 301.08]  product you know get it is on the far end where this is really uh this is really a gift so you
+[301.08 --> 304.74]  don't tell them i'm funding you towards this goal and as long as you're working on that goal
+[304.74 --> 310.56]  yeah exactly it's really like a patronage model it's like i believe in the work you do and i want
+[310.56 --> 313.80]  you to do more of it you know i trust that you're going to take this money and you're going to do
+[313.80 --> 319.22]  awesome stuff with it you know so it's really trying to yeah trying to dial in on that like i believe
+[319.22 --> 324.48]  in you keep doing awesome stuff right uh yeah so that's what that's what that's what we're doing
+[324.48 --> 331.18]  and we've been um so i guess to uh to recap where we're at we've got we're coming up on 3 000 active
+[331.18 --> 337.48]  users and i guess we could check so it was a year ago was it yeah let's check our charts real quick
+[337.48 --> 343.30]  most of the day yeah okay so we've got uh let's check the charts real quick so right now we've got
+[343.30 --> 350.48]  28 000 or you know 2 887 so we're coming up on 3 000 weekly users that's people who either give or
+[350.48 --> 359.84]  receive or both on the site and we moved uh 13 400 you what was it yesterday so we're up over 13 000
+[359.84 --> 365.40]  let's go back let's dial it back a year um so that would be week 50 i'm looking at the
+[365.40 --> 373.90]  get it.com slash about slash charts html and two years or a year ago we were at 1 000 users
+[373.90 --> 382.40]  and what about three thousand dollars wow yes so we've grown we've grown it looks like uh 1800 users
+[382.40 --> 388.60]  so you know almost 200 and then uh and it looks like a thousand dollars or ten thousand dollars we've
+[388.60 --> 394.56]  grown ten thousand dollars which would be what quickly uh you know 4x 5x over a year ago you know so
+[394.56 --> 400.12]  that's not nothing um that's huge man i mean it's not quite a hockey stick but like i said for as
+[400.12 --> 404.48]  deep as we set the plow i'm i'm pretty encouraged for where we're at so i'm looking at these charts
+[404.48 --> 409.94]  here on your slash about slash charts you have a withdrawal it looks like the weekly gifts like
+[409.94 --> 415.58]  you said is 13 444 and your withdrawals is at 78 60 so the rest is that differential just what's
+[415.58 --> 420.44]  being traded inside of get up or not traded but given escrowed yeah we would say escrowed inside of
+[420.44 --> 426.44]  get it so yeah get up is like this bubble within or this loop or this uh circle within the larger
+[426.44 --> 431.54]  economy right so you move money into get it uh you shuffle it around inside of get it and then
+[431.54 --> 436.30]  you pull it out the other side uh right so there is an amount of money which is actually if you click
+[436.30 --> 441.72]  on the stats link that's at the top of that page i think we're at like 100k escrowed within get it right
+[441.72 --> 449.12]  now something like that it's kind of a little over 100k escrowed and get it yeah so you know we we
+[449.12 --> 457.02]  doubled we doubled three times last year uh every four or five months and then looking at these charts
+[457.02 --> 461.86]  we've kind of slowed the past month or two but i don't know it's it's hard to read these things
+[461.86 --> 466.80]  sometimes but yeah the the past the past month or two it's started to flatten a little bit and
+[466.80 --> 471.92]  kind of scratch our head a little bit about that i mean the way the way i'm seeing it is that last
+[471.92 --> 478.68]  year okay so the for the first for the first year 2012 started the middle of the year and the name of
+[478.68 --> 484.42]  the game was you know we came out of the gate pretty fast it was encouraging and then it was all about
+[484.42 --> 489.66]  transitioning from uh working on get it as a side project to me personally working on a full-time
+[489.66 --> 495.72]  that was 2012 so by the end of 2012 i was working on get it full-time so when i talked to you guys last
+[495.72 --> 501.88]  year uh in may there's no transition yeah well i i i pretty much transitioned into get it full-time
+[501.88 --> 509.54]  but then the challenge in in 2013 was let's go from just chad working on it to a team working on it
+[509.54 --> 517.40]  right because you know you know zuckerberg isn't the only one working on facebook right um you know it
+[517.40 --> 522.96]  it takes a team to build a product right and that's no different for an open product than for anything
+[522.96 --> 527.86]  else or any other company uh you know so that was that was really the name of the game in 2013 was
+[527.86 --> 532.98]  let's go from just chad you know i'm not building get it i'm building a team that's building get it
+[532.98 --> 537.08]  is something that i think i think kenneth wasn't kenneth on the call last year i believe so yeah
+[537.08 --> 541.72]  yeah he was he brought up that quote i'd put out there that yeah this year we're you know i'm not
+[541.72 --> 546.10]  building get it i'm building a team that's building get it and so that's what 2013 was about
+[546.10 --> 555.78]  and it worked um in january of this year so january 2014 we had our first annual get it company retreat
+[555.78 --> 562.06]  which i hosted here at my house in pittsburgh outside of pittsburgh during the polar vortex
+[562.06 --> 568.04]  so nice time the middle is yeah exactly it's more of a winter we um we convinced we had a dozen
+[568.04 --> 574.10]  people fly in uh is that your team 12 people that's the that's the folks that traveled to pittsburgh
+[574.10 --> 580.28]  right so we had a wider team because i mean it's like any open source project you've got uh you've
+[580.28 --> 583.86]  you've got a core of people that are really committed and then you've got this much wider
+[583.86 --> 589.30]  cloud of people that are interested you know it's a long tail right it's like so i think at that point
+[589.30 --> 596.68]  we probably had 60 or 70 people quote unquote on the team uh which specifically means that they're
+[596.68 --> 603.86]  uh they are they're listed on the team on get it get it is funded on get it and we have this
+[603.86 --> 608.96]  team's feature where when you give money to get it the question is how do we split that so we split
+[608.96 --> 614.58]  that 70 ways and so those 70 people are are kind of our wider our wider base and then out of that 70
+[614.58 --> 622.58]  people a dozen of them came to pittsburgh uh for our meetup in january um yeah so you know that was
+[622.58 --> 627.26]  that was kind of a that was a milestone for us that was a success right like yes we've got a team this
+[627.26 --> 632.24]  is real you know my wife's like wait there's people besides you that are working on get it right
+[632.24 --> 635.94]  because like you know i do it all on the internet you wouldn't see it in real life right it's like
+[635.94 --> 642.16]  here's all these people in my house all of a sudden um you know chad yeah they're real
+[642.16 --> 648.30]  besides chad yeah people believe in this besides chad yes exactly i've always wondered at what your
+[648.30 --> 653.38]  wife thinks of it because um you're really public so last year we kind of made fun of you in some degree
+[653.38 --> 660.88]  for sharing your address and your uh phone number and you know the security issues that may come up from
+[660.88 --> 667.60]  that especially as you get more and more infamous with i mean and to some degree you're pretty open
+[667.60 --> 675.00]  about your very opinionated ways and some don't agree with you right yeah absolutely um yeah i mean
+[675.00 --> 682.22]  there haven't been any disasters as far as that goes this past year knock on wood i guess uh yeah i mean
+[682.22 --> 689.58]  look there's risks in life you know and yeah you can be you know i always think of the nickel mine uh
+[689.58 --> 693.98]  wasn't that the the amish shooting wasn't that nickel mine pennsylvania or whatever right it's like
+[693.98 --> 697.90]  you can be amish you can be living out in the countryside you know totally disconnected like
+[697.90 --> 704.66]  not sharing you know like the least uh connected in public person right all right and still some
+[704.66 --> 708.98]  nut job is going to bring a gun into your school and shoot all your kids you know so it's not like i
+[708.98 --> 715.90]  don't know i'm not a statistician by training but i don't know i i don't think
+[715.90 --> 724.24]  my gut says it's not safer uh than not right it's like there what are the chances of of having uh you
+[724.24 --> 729.94]  know having somebody do you harm you know what what what causes that what makes you more likely to
+[729.94 --> 737.88]  to be hurt than not um and you know this is this is a point at which i need to pause uh in the light of
+[737.88 --> 745.78]  a conversation i've especially been having last night i mean there you know i'm a rich white male
+[745.78 --> 753.26]  i enjoy lots of privilege and that's uh that's my experience of being open on the internet
+[753.26 --> 765.18]  is absolutely what's the word uh shaped uh by by that right um you know if there's this man we're
+[765.18 --> 769.80]  getting in deep right off the bat so one of the things happened one of the one of the unexpected
+[769.80 --> 775.00]  turn of events over the past year is that get up is for activists right like we came out of the gate
+[775.00 --> 779.52]  and we're like get up is for open source and we're going to fund open source on get up and we're doing
+[779.52 --> 784.42]  some of that but the the largest receivers on get up and everybody you know everybody but uh you know
+[784.42 --> 791.32]  the the the top receivers board on get up is activists uh gender activists and uh feminist
+[791.32 --> 797.60]  activists right uh so that that was a left turn from uh you know from my point of view it's it's it's
+[797.60 --> 802.16]  kind of a head scratcher for me it's like you know all right uh cool this is one of those cases
+[802.16 --> 806.50]  where it's like you know you don't know how your product's going to be used you know it's like your
+[806.50 --> 812.12]  users drive your product right right and and there's always those surprises in building a product it's
+[812.12 --> 815.70]  like oh my gosh like i never anticipated it would be used this way but here it is be used this way
+[815.70 --> 821.80]  you know and i have anticipated that you know i've always wanted for get up to grow beyond uh just
+[821.80 --> 828.14]  open source right and uh and and it's done that you know so that's that's definitely a success
+[828.14 --> 833.88]  um but what it means is that i'm learning a lot right i'm i'm getting lots of feedback because
+[833.88 --> 838.32]  now and we're actually last night was kind of where it started coming to a head like there's
+[838.32 --> 844.48]  been this mounting tension a little bit uh you know because there's all these activists and using
+[844.48 --> 851.60]  gidip and being funded on it there's been a little bit of a disconnect um you know because i'm not a
+[851.60 --> 855.78]  feminist i'm not an activist you know what i mean it's like that's that hasn't been my uh you know
+[855.78 --> 863.30]  driving concern on gidip and so yeah so i feel like we're just starting to not just starting but
+[863.30 --> 871.20]  um i'm i'm looking for how to establish a relationship with those users right those people
+[871.20 --> 876.36]  those users of mine on gidip it's like all right um let's talk let's get to know each other let's
+[876.36 --> 880.12]  get to know one another let's get to know each other um you know let me understand where you're
+[880.12 --> 884.48]  coming from and how you're using the platform what your needs are on it and whatnot and you can get
+[884.48 --> 890.56]  to know me a little bit because as you said i am uh you know leading a fairly opinionated online life
+[890.56 --> 896.64]  in this uh way of doing open things right open companies and open calls you know i love that we're
+[896.64 --> 902.98]  live streaming this here and and i'm very comfortable with that um you know but i'm i'm hearing a lot of
+[902.98 --> 909.14]  uh different feedback i'm trying to take that on board and that's that's part of the adventure right now
+[909.14 --> 914.06]  yeah it was interesting i saw some i think there was some retweeting going of some gidip i think even the
+[914.06 --> 919.64]  getup account perhaps retweeted some criticism coming your way and then i was surprised to find
+[919.64 --> 924.34]  that the criticism was coming from one of the top receivers on your home page i love it right yeah
+[924.34 --> 929.20]  and i was kind of like oh well that's interesting that's i think it's great you know i mean shanley
+[929.20 --> 936.70]  was uh the one i was talking to last night and yeah she is one of the top receivers um and right and
+[936.70 --> 943.58]  she's you know a very opinionated person in her own right and has uh you know a fairly brusque
+[943.58 --> 951.28]  approach to online conversation and i don't know though it's i don't know oh it felt yeah
+[951.28 --> 958.58]  it it's i don't know well you get into a situation where you can really you know like you you know you
+[958.58 --> 963.60]  had said you started get up and even let's maybe rewind a tiny bit to kind of give some foundation to
+[963.60 --> 968.64]  some of the conversation we're having right now which is and to my understanding you you've started
+[968.64 --> 973.12]  this to fund open source to some degree so that's also a reason why it's called gidip and some people
+[973.12 --> 980.56]  call it get tip yeah so it stemmed from you know get github you know open source movement um uh-huh
+[980.56 --> 986.30]  yeah to definitely to an extent uh you know it started when i first bought the domain i was like oh
+[986.30 --> 991.40]  my gosh we need tip jar for github you know i was thinking i was sitting in my in my nice cushy
+[991.40 --> 995.62]  corporate job you know totally bored out of my mind and it was like oh i would love to just
+[995.62 --> 1000.20]  work on my web framework all day long you know this aspen web framework that i've got like
+[1000.20 --> 1004.78]  what would i need to do like why you know what if there were a tip jar on github and then i would
+[1004.78 --> 1009.68]  be freed up to work on open source stuff all day long so that was the that was the uh beginning of
+[1009.68 --> 1016.02]  it and how i named it get it get tip exactly it was how it started really quickly i mean i think i
+[1016.02 --> 1021.54]  invented it in right around this time okay may 11th and then launched it three weeks later was the
+[1021.54 --> 1029.16]  zero with payday and you know within those three weeks even uh it it changed from being just uh just
+[1029.16 --> 1033.46]  to tip jar for github to you know what this is a lot bigger this could be a lot bigger i actually
+[1033.46 --> 1042.70]  almost named it logstown yeah so logstown is the name of the indian village that i that is now
+[1042.70 --> 1048.76]  present day ambridge where i live right uh you know so it's just a a local thing here and so i
+[1048.76 --> 1053.90]  bought the domains a few years ago logstown comnet norg and you know had those domains sitting around
+[1053.90 --> 1057.92]  so i was like well maybe i'll use this i'll use logstown then my brother-in-law's i don't know
+[1057.92 --> 1062.86]  funny side story my brother my brother-in-law's like no man that that makes me think i'm going to
+[1062.86 --> 1067.58]  the washroom he always calls me washroom it's like it makes me think i'm going to the washroom he's
+[1067.58 --> 1072.30]  like just stick with git tip git tip is nice because it has like the itti it's like very
+[1072.30 --> 1077.32]  parallel and everything says a nice name you know he's not a geek at all he's a he's a scientist and
+[1077.32 --> 1082.36]  a musician but he's not a programmer uh necessarily not an open source guy uh yeah so he was like just
+[1082.36 --> 1087.28]  call it git tip it's okay this is like all right well you know he didn't know anything about github or
+[1087.28 --> 1092.16]  anything right he just thought the name was you know cool and memorable or whatever yeah and didn't
+[1092.16 --> 1098.54]  like logstown so so right but my point is that even even by the time we launched uh you know i was
+[1098.54 --> 1103.56]  already thinking that this is going to be bigger than open source uh you know but that's you're
+[1103.56 --> 1109.32]  right that's where it started so now i like to say that that git tip is related to github in the same
+[1109.32 --> 1115.50]  way that wiki leaks is related to wikipedia yeah you know in other words they're not really connected
+[1115.50 --> 1120.76]  at all but through this historical accident uh you know there's some a little bit of brand confusion
+[1120.76 --> 1124.54]  going on there but i think there's some you have some signal signaling uh towards that end on the
+[1124.54 --> 1129.16]  home page where it's who inspires you and there's a form and it's enter a twitter username yeah that's
+[1129.16 --> 1134.24]  what you start and github is in the select box but it's not the first thing right right right yeah
+[1134.24 --> 1139.98]  yeah exactly you know so so it's awesome that um you know that shanley and ash and everybody else
+[1139.98 --> 1147.08]  uh you know not that they're not all programmers but you know more folks dot activism i mean that's
+[1147.08 --> 1150.54]  great that's perfect that's what we want we want but you know i want it to expand
+[1150.54 --> 1155.80]  uh beyond open source and it's done that so that's you know that's a that's a a win in my
+[1155.80 --> 1160.20]  view from the past year um but yeah we are having some interesting conversations around
+[1160.20 --> 1168.12]  you know the whole open company idea and what that means uh you know how how you balance
+[1168.12 --> 1173.70]  okay so my goal with open companies get if we call it an open company meaning we share as much as
+[1173.70 --> 1179.08]  possible we charge as little as possible and then we're funded on a pay what you want basis on
+[1179.08 --> 1187.34]  get it itself and you know my driving motivation open company is not an end in itself for me open
+[1187.34 --> 1194.94]  company is part of uh this vision of living a life of gratitude and generosity you know i don't i don't
+[1194.94 --> 1198.74]  want to hide my stuff i don't i don't want to i don't want to work on proprietary things i want to
+[1198.74 --> 1204.04]  share the stuff i work on i want to give this stuff away for free that i work on you know um it just
+[1204.04 --> 1208.78]  as a matter of principle and how i want to live my life i want to i want to share what i have um as
+[1208.78 --> 1215.56]  much as possible and you know so that's where i'm coming from with open companies but then uh you know
+[1215.56 --> 1220.66]  what shanley was feeding back last night and i've heard from others is you know it's really threatening
+[1220.66 --> 1224.48]  if you experience a lot of harassment online to think about i have to sneeze one sec
+[1224.48 --> 1233.32]  the first super loud sneeze on the changelog that was an epic sneeze wasn't it i did manage to get
+[1233.32 --> 1240.56]  my microphone away from my face that's awesome like a looney tunes cartoon yeah there you go um
+[1240.56 --> 1249.72]  right so uh so what i'm hearing is you know there's there's people for whom uh you know the internet is
+[1249.72 --> 1254.78]  a very much more threatening place than it is for me right and you're getting lots of death threats
+[1254.78 --> 1262.52]  and rape threats and whatnot and that's really you know uh terrible right that's horrible like uh you
+[1262.52 --> 1272.36]  know goodness sorry um and so you know for someone like that the idea of putting even more online and
+[1272.36 --> 1279.48]  you know exposing yourself even more uh you know obviously comes across as like a wtf right
+[1279.48 --> 1285.46]  yeah um yeah you know but that that's the conversation we're having i think we're dancing
+[1285.46 --> 1290.74]  on this idea of radical transparency i think that's really what the the phrase that was being used and
+[1290.74 --> 1296.66]  it's uh we even said you know you're infamous to some degree because not only have you had maybe some
+[1296.66 --> 1301.84]  abrasions here but also with journalists that don't really appease to the way you want to operate
+[1301.84 --> 1308.02]  of being open so you've kind of had some angst and some um abrasions with other people too so it's not
+[1308.02 --> 1312.78]  just your user base it's it's others too because you want to be radically transparent about who you
+[1312.78 --> 1318.08]  are and what you do with your company what you're doing for the community yeah yeah i mean i don't
+[1318.08 --> 1324.52]  okay so i don't experience it as abrasions right i i mean it's an opportunity cost when i um turned
+[1324.52 --> 1329.84]  down tech crunch that was kind of kicked a lot of this off you know i got an interview uh opportunity
+[1329.84 --> 1335.40]  with tech crunch and i had just been starting to experiment with uh i think i'd started using the
+[1335.40 --> 1339.90]  phrase open company at that point but uh you know hadn't started really pushing open calls and
+[1339.90 --> 1345.08]  whatnot and you know decided to heard from tech crunch and you know said all right i'm gonna go
+[1345.08 --> 1350.00]  for it let's do this as an open call and it's an opportunity cost right because like i know that
+[1350.00 --> 1354.64]  there's a pretty good chance they're gonna say no right and it's my decision to live with the
+[1354.64 --> 1360.72]  consequences they say no and i don't get an interview in tech crunch and so like i'm fine with
+[1360.72 --> 1366.54]  that right like i'm fine not getting an interview in tech crunch so i don't you know i'm not and then
+[1366.54 --> 1373.14]  more recently um jason calacanis reached out to me on email uh the the angel investor uh reached out
+[1373.14 --> 1378.84]  to me on email and and podcaster in his own right etc entrepreneur he reached out to me on email and
+[1378.84 --> 1382.66]  said um you know would you like to have you know i'm interested in having a conversation with you and i
+[1382.66 --> 1387.12]  said all right great let's do it as a hangout right and you know i was i was working with this uh
+[1387.12 --> 1391.32]  person another person setting it up and kind of got the ball rolling and then jason was like whoa
+[1391.32 --> 1397.94]  you know not cool you know it's like all right crap i i just shot myself in the foot again right
+[1397.94 --> 1402.88]  it's an opportunity cost and it's an opportunity cost that i do feel uh but at the end of the day
+[1402.88 --> 1407.86]  it's a decision that i'm making you know in full knowledge that it's you know this is the path i've
+[1407.86 --> 1413.52]  kind of chosen for myself kind of painted myself in this corner uh you know but you know gidip is still
+[1413.52 --> 1418.90]  growing well enough and and we're still doing well enough that you know i haven't felt fundamentally
+[1418.90 --> 1424.78]  that it's the wrong decision yet um yeah i think it's it's it's still the way i'm i'm going you
+[1424.78 --> 1429.20]  know but i'm i am trying to hear these other voices like uh shanley's especially in and that side of
+[1429.20 --> 1435.82]  things because it's not an absolute it's not an end in itself the the purpose you know in my mind
+[1435.82 --> 1443.40]  what i'm trying to do with open companies is is is bust open governments and corporations like i look
+[1443.40 --> 1446.42]  at government and i look at corporations i look at snowden right that's something that happened in
+[1446.42 --> 1452.42]  the past year you know since we talked last i look at snowden i look at the nsa um and you know
+[1452.42 --> 1458.22]  and wikileaks you know in their own time and and you know that's crappy i don't like that right so
+[1458.22 --> 1462.70]  what am i going to do about it um you know my activism in this regard you know i i see that and
+[1462.70 --> 1470.32]  my answer is um i'm going to try and and live my own life in a way that's you know that that's not
+[1470.32 --> 1476.04]  closed in secret right i'm going to try and live i'm going to try and create the system in that
+[1476.04 --> 1483.22]  i don't know in in which snowden is a moot point right you know in which there's nothing to leak in
+[1483.22 --> 1489.24]  the first place pretty much you know what i mean yeah so you know which isn't for everybody and
+[1489.24 --> 1492.72]  that's fine but like that's that's where i'm coming from with this right it's not transparency for
+[1492.72 --> 1497.74]  its own sake and it you know it can come across kind of cartoonish on the internet because that's the
+[1497.74 --> 1502.36]  internet right like that's uh you know that's memes it's like boiling stuff down to their you
+[1502.36 --> 1507.38]  know caricatured essentials but you know obviously it's more sophisticated than that right like i've
+[1507.38 --> 1513.80]  got people on my team that don't do video calls for one reason or another you know well we have a
+[1513.80 --> 1520.58]  daily stand-up every day at noon uh you know that we use google hangouts for we live stream right so
+[1520.58 --> 1529.28]  i've got this you know quite apart from kind of the high level abstract level discussion i was having
+[1529.28 --> 1533.94]  with shanley last night like there's real concrete realities in in my life and running my business
+[1533.94 --> 1539.12]  that are already uh you know that have already called into question the absoluteness of this open
+[1539.12 --> 1544.60]  ideal and and and you know have been forcing not forcing because i want it right it's like we're
+[1544.60 --> 1549.62]  trying to nuance this i don't want no open company isn't a cartoon it's a reality right i want it to be
+[1549.62 --> 1555.72]  real and that means taking into account uh you know the the sophistication of it and the nuance of
+[1555.72 --> 1561.00]  it um and we're already dealing with that so we so in the case of the stand-ups and people not wanting
+[1561.00 --> 1569.30]  to be on video for for various reasons um that's fine so we just we we take their stand-up report in irc
+[1569.30 --> 1575.94]  and we read it uh you know we read it on the video and they watch the video from wherever right and so
+[1575.94 --> 1582.38]  then you know it's not violating uh their uh the their own what i want to say
+[1582.38 --> 1589.08]  their own terms of privacy that they've negotiated with the internet you know because we each have to
+[1589.08 --> 1593.10]  negotiate our own relationship with the internet and that looks different for different people
+[1593.10 --> 1599.74]  and you know gidip and open companies are not about railroading people into one single right way
+[1599.74 --> 1606.08]  dogmatic way to do it um i'm saying look i am privileged and as much as possible i'm going to
+[1606.08 --> 1610.96]  share my privilege with as many people as possible you know that's what i'm trying to do here and you
+[1610.96 --> 1614.14]  know if you're coming out from a different point of view i'm going to respect you i'm not going to
+[1614.14 --> 1618.62]  violate your confidentiality your privacy we do have private channels support at gidip.com is a
+[1618.62 --> 1623.28]  confidential channel um you know my phone number that's a confidential channel well except for the
+[1623.28 --> 1631.00]  you know they listen to their users you got to give them credit yeah right right yeah but you know
+[1631.00 --> 1637.52]  i don't violate confidentiality you know and and what i do that's a bug and i try to apologize for it
+[1637.52 --> 1643.16]  let's pause the show for just a minute give a shout out to our sponsor code chip code chip is a hosted
+[1643.16 --> 1648.44]  continuous deployment service that just works you can easily set up continuous integration for your
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+[1677.58 --> 1685.64]  to get a 20 discount for three months on any plan you choose again that code is the changelaw podcast
+[1685.64 --> 1692.28]  and you're going to get a 20 discount for three months on any plan you choose head to coachship.io
+[1692.28 --> 1698.16]  and tell them the changelaw sent you so you know i have to admit on on that front there because there
+[1698.16 --> 1705.22]  was at least two times i probably like you i have i'm an idea guy i try and think and jeremy you can
+[1705.22 --> 1709.46]  back me up on this i try to think outside the box i try to be a dreamer to some degree and my wife is
+[1709.46 --> 1713.58]  probably if she's listening to this which she's not live but maybe she listens to it later i don't
+[1713.58 --> 1719.12]  know why but uh she's she's probably thinking like absolutely he's a dreamer but there's been several
+[1719.12 --> 1725.00]  times that i'm like i want to align what we're doing with the changelaw and open source and support
+[1725.00 --> 1730.24]  and just in general encouragement to the community and the beautiful things that are coming from it
+[1730.24 --> 1735.16]  there's been several times i want to chat with you and i'm like yeah i don't i don't mind making
+[1735.16 --> 1741.08]  it open it's just it's so early the idea is so fresh it you know i'm just not quite oh you know
+[1741.08 --> 1745.30]  cool with being so open like you are and i hesitated to reach out because i thought you know you'd be
+[1745.30 --> 1750.76]  like yeah we can't have that conversation because i have to do it on google hangouts oh this just got
+[1750.76 --> 1755.80]  real adam it's just got real stack this is great because you're right yeah you and i we've interacted a
+[1755.80 --> 1759.64]  bit i i don't remember the you probably remember the email i'm like hey can we talk and i never
+[1759.64 --> 1764.12]  responded because i was like we got to do it open i'm like i just i just couldn't get past it and i
+[1764.12 --> 1770.06]  got busy again so you know there's that span of time there so i can appreciate someone extreme like
+[1770.06 --> 1775.38]  like shanley in her case where she's getting threats and obviously there's certain like you said
+[1775.38 --> 1779.84]  negotiated privacy terms you have with the internet for someone like her in her position and someone even
+[1779.84 --> 1785.14]  like my position still having reservations you know yeah yeah and what i want to say is
+[1785.14 --> 1790.38]  dude i love you you know and like i'm i'm not out to force you to do anything that you're not
+[1790.38 --> 1799.02]  comfortable doing right and you know it seems like where that leaves us is a bit of an opportunity
+[1799.02 --> 1805.24]  cost on on both of our sides right it's like um and there's so there's some you know there's some
+[1805.24 --> 1809.42]  sadness on my end for that it's like well you know yeah it would be nice to work together right but
+[1809.42 --> 1813.80]  yeah i've i don't know we have similar interests i would say don't you think
+[1813.80 --> 1817.82]  yeah absolutely right so there's there's a lot of there's a lot of overlap and so
+[1817.82 --> 1826.42]  um you know i but look it's a tricky thing all around right like and you know we've each got our
+[1826.42 --> 1830.76]  life outside the internet too right like there's plenty of stuff that you're not finding out about
+[1830.76 --> 1837.04]  me on the internet you know like like i'm i'm bigger than wit 537 and you know you're bigger than
+[1837.04 --> 1842.22]  adam stack like we've all got these fuller richer lives and you know part of where i'm coming from is
+[1842.22 --> 1849.94]  like uh you know i i want to i want to privilege that a little bit too you know it's like look like
+[1849.94 --> 1856.72]  it's it's maybe okay if you know if if we don't get to pursue this together because we've each you
+[1856.72 --> 1861.14]  know our lives are abundantly rich right it's like we've all got plenty of relationships and plenty of
+[1861.14 --> 1865.92]  things to work on plenty of projects on the internet and fun stuff to do and then you know families and
+[1865.92 --> 1872.82]  and and kids and you know and dogs and cats and you know just like stuff we love doing right and
+[1872.82 --> 1880.58]  i don't know life life is abundantly rich and uh i don't know i can only feel so bad for so long for
+[1880.58 --> 1886.24]  like for losing an opportunity over that because it's you know because life is so rich and because
+[1886.24 --> 1890.80]  it's i don't know those are those are kind of the terms i've negotiated for myself is like
+[1890.80 --> 1895.50]  part of it is that it is a limiting factor right i think i actually say this i posted a
+[1895.50 --> 1900.74]  a blog post about my interview policy or a web page i put it up on my website right so here's my
+[1900.74 --> 1906.90]  interview policy and in there i say you know maybe i'm being narcissistic like we all have to manage
+[1906.90 --> 1913.34]  our time somehow and this you know this turns out to be one way to do it right it's like it it's
+[1913.34 --> 1920.40]  i don't know man if there was if there's something if there's like a real if there's a real safety
+[1920.40 --> 1926.48]  concern or a security concern of course i'm going to take any phone call and keep it private and
+[1926.48 --> 1933.90]  confidential right so uh you know if you if you really you know if anybody i don't want to i don't
+[1933.90 --> 1938.30]  want anyone to get the impression that's a baseline right i'm talking out loud i'm glad don't worry
+[1938.30 --> 1942.26]  about it good it's okay am i going to the right direction you know there's like so so it has to be
+[1942.26 --> 1948.24]  there have to be these tiers to it right it's like so fundamental foundational if there's if
+[1948.24 --> 1952.96]  there's a security concern or a safety concern or a personnel issue in the case of people actually
+[1952.96 --> 1958.54]  working on giddup like a sensitive personnel issue i'm handling that private privately like no questions
+[1958.54 --> 1964.54]  asked give me a call you know private message me you know show up my house i mean i've had you know
+[1964.54 --> 1969.46]  yes yeah giddup collaborators show up my house right and like you don't hear about that on the internet
+[1969.46 --> 1975.44]  until just now right like and that's like in a bed we're in a good way uh good way like hey can we
+[1975.44 --> 1980.02]  hack sure okay come on in well yeah like so i don't want to get into too much detail right but like
+[1980.02 --> 1987.46]  the the point is that there is this baseline um i am willing to do private conversations for that
+[1987.46 --> 1994.06]  kind of stuff that kind of really sensitive stuff um then you know then there's this middle ground which
+[1994.06 --> 2000.16]  is like like the kind of stuff that uh you know you and i are talking about right like you know
+[2000.16 --> 2007.04]  projects would be fun to do together you know your uh you know your own relationships with privacy on
+[2007.04 --> 2010.82]  the internet that you negotiate for yourself is is different than mine like you've got the setting
+[2010.82 --> 2016.70]  you know you've got the dial tuned to a different place than i do um you know but it's it's not like
+[2016.70 --> 2020.64]  you're in danger it's not like you're like chad somebody's coming after me on giddup and i i need your
+[2020.64 --> 2028.42]  help right um you know so in that case yeah man i'm i'm a little sad about it but it's you know
+[2028.42 --> 2033.78]  it's an opportunity cause i'm sorry man so like release early release often he's not gonna budge
+[2033.78 --> 2039.48]  i know right but that like that's the hard thing is like i love you right like i want to work together
+[2039.48 --> 2043.96]  with with you and with everyone else and you know this is this is what i'm bringing to the table you
+[2043.96 --> 2049.36]  know it's like uh it you know the reason i'm doing it this way like you know i've got my reasons for
+[2049.36 --> 2053.14]  doing it this way just like you have your reasons for doing it that way so it i don't know i guess i
+[2053.14 --> 2056.58]  guess at the end of the day there's an agree to disagree you know and i and i can respect that
+[2056.58 --> 2060.10]  that's that's where i was like you know what i don't want to i could have responded and said no
+[2060.10 --> 2065.08]  you're a jerk come on let's just talk offline but i didn't want to force you because i know what
+[2065.08 --> 2068.44]  you're trying to do i know your mission with get up and i know where your heart's at so i didn't
+[2068.44 --> 2073.28]  i didn't want to question why you were doing it i figured uh yeah you know we can delay the
+[2073.28 --> 2079.06]  conversation potentially and you know no harm no foul i'm not upset with you i just wanted to point that out that
+[2079.06 --> 2083.82]  you know you've got direct users of get up that have an issue with uh to some degree with you know
+[2083.82 --> 2087.12]  from a security standpoint like you mentioned then you have someone like me who's you know maybe from
+[2087.12 --> 2091.00]  a business standpoint or maybe from just a community standpoint how can we work together and i don't
+[2091.00 --> 2094.88]  want to air out the laundry like right away i wouldn't mind obviously making everything open we're
+[2094.88 --> 2101.08]  about open source and this yeah this show goes on air once a week and this one in particular live so
+[2101.08 --> 2105.34]  we have no problem with what we say going out to the internet and being documented forever
+[2105.34 --> 2111.04]  right right right yeah so one of the things we've discovered is that the real world is kind of a
+[2111.04 --> 2117.26]  pain in the ass for open companies you know because it's like unless everybody's wearing google glass
+[2117.26 --> 2123.72]  you know how are you going to record your your meeting that's face to face right um it's i don't know so
+[2123.72 --> 2131.04]  but at the same time that that that scopes it or there's you know there's only so much real life
+[2131.04 --> 2136.64]  interaction that you can do and that provides i don't know like if you and i run into each other
+[2136.64 --> 2141.64]  at a conference or something we end up going out for drinks or you know going out and talking like
+[2141.64 --> 2149.02]  that's great that's perfect right um i'm not you know i don't not go to conferences because they're
+[2149.02 --> 2153.94]  not broadcast live on the internet you know the whole time i'm there right your preference is reality
+[2153.94 --> 2161.98]  tv and if not if it's not available then no problem well i i've sort of i like the balance
+[2161.98 --> 2168.50]  right i don't you know kind of what i've come to is like i'm not going to be able to make any
+[2168.50 --> 2175.64]  decisions about stuff um you know in a in an offline face-to-face conversation right um you know
+[2175.64 --> 2179.28]  that that's part of what it comes down to is like anything that's actually going to move the needle on
+[2179.28 --> 2183.46]  get it anything that's actually going to be a decision that we make like i might have a conversation
+[2183.46 --> 2189.10]  with you about it privately um but if it's actually going to manifest as something real on the internet
+[2189.10 --> 2193.80]  on giddip then it's going to have to go through the public vetting process in a github issue or
+[2193.80 --> 2201.06]  whatever you know what i mean so it's kind of yeah i don't know i see a distinction there between
+[2201.06 --> 2206.66]  the interpersonal level where it's like i can only interact with so many people in a day because i'm like
+[2206.66 --> 2212.60]  a you know a bony gut bag that like walks around in meat space right and like that that puts its own
+[2212.60 --> 2218.52]  limits on what you can accomplish in gut bag space and that's uh that's appropriate right
+[2218.52 --> 2222.48]  you know because phenomenologically like i am a person i want to interact with other people
+[2222.48 --> 2227.52]  um you know and the the internet's this sort of weird ether where you can interact with you know
+[2227.52 --> 2234.74]  a billion people very tenuously um and and kind of both of those together are are part of uh or i
+[2234.74 --> 2238.88]  don't know or they're both part of the equation for me you know and i don't know this is where it
+[2238.88 --> 2243.86]  gets more nuanced right it's like it's not it's not a it's not a simple open companies everything
+[2243.86 --> 2249.58]  has to be open transparency radical transparency like i don't know yeah i don't know this is where
+[2249.58 --> 2254.40]  it gets more interesting right right and it's so the i think we've been on this particular topic for a
+[2254.40 --> 2258.80]  bit and it's not not in a bad way but it's it's so the reason i think it's really important is because
+[2258.80 --> 2263.26]  it's at the heart of you and you're at the heart of giddip so it's at the heart of your story so
+[2263.26 --> 2268.74]  anyone who's listening to this knows that you're to some degree radically transparent you have a
+[2268.74 --> 2272.74]  open company initiative you're leading the charge in some way in some ways you're in uncharted
+[2272.74 --> 2277.90]  territories i mean in many many ways right this is brand new i think you had absolutely open
+[2277.90 --> 2283.14]  company.biz which now redirects to some other domain that is the i think so the ideas evolved
+[2283.14 --> 2289.04]  to opencompany.org and i think you've even merged some relationships and and whatnot so
+[2289.04 --> 2295.48]  yeah so we launched this open company initiative uh with balance payments and a couple others and
+[2295.48 --> 2300.56]  and it's it's small and we're just kind of you know seeing where it goes but the idea is let's
+[2300.56 --> 2306.04]  get together companies that are interested in these kind of themes and uh you know and just talk to one
+[2306.04 --> 2311.00]  another and and share experience and whatnot so it's manifesting as an annual looks like it's going
+[2311.00 --> 2315.78]  to manifest as an annual event uh you know we did it a couple months ago in in san francisco and
+[2315.78 --> 2321.78]  we'll probably do it again next year um yeah it's a pretty light touch there but yeah so there's
+[2321.78 --> 2326.10]  there's two you have two kind of tenants of an open company the second of which which you said is
+[2326.10 --> 2331.06]  charge as little as possible and i guess that is the one that that to me doesn't seem as so much as
+[2331.06 --> 2337.08]  open in the sense of transparency right maybe it's open in a different way can you speak to why that's
+[2337.08 --> 2341.80]  you know number two on the list of things a company should do yeah so one of the things uh we've
+[2341.80 --> 2347.88]  been saying in the open company conversations is transparency is sharing information and openness
+[2347.88 --> 2358.50]  is sharing control okay so so when i publish um you know when buffer publishes their salaries
+[2358.50 --> 2367.02]  publicly that's sharing information that's transparency right right when i open up my issue tracker
+[2367.02 --> 2372.84]  uh you know to your feedback and you can come and create issues on my issue tracker like balance
+[2372.84 --> 2378.96]  does with their dashboard for example right that's sharing control that's letting users uh you know
+[2378.96 --> 2383.54]  yeah in some ways this is stuff that's done you know with like user voice and get satisfaction
+[2383.54 --> 2389.68]  whatever that kind of stuff too right but sharing control and so for me the um the charge as little
+[2389.68 --> 2394.66]  as possible thing is part of sharing control because really you know from that initial blog post like
+[2394.66 --> 2399.02]  year and a half ago or two years ago or whatever when i put out the initial blog post get up as an
+[2399.02 --> 2403.78]  open company i said it was three things share as much as possible charge as little as possible and
+[2403.78 --> 2408.78]  don't compensate employees so that's kind of it's evolving and we haven't you know come up with a
+[2408.78 --> 2416.14]  really clear articulation of uh of how it's evolved but um but but basically the idea around money is like
+[2416.14 --> 2424.38]  i'm even giving i'm giving the users control over my money too right it's like not only not only can you
+[2424.38 --> 2427.90]  determine which way the product is going but you're going to determine how much money you make
+[2427.90 --> 2431.72]  from it worth to yeah exactly you're gonna determine how much it's worth you you're making
+[2431.72 --> 2437.16]  your full living on get up right pretty much man yeah so that that was like that was part of this
+[2437.16 --> 2442.30]  two-year window is like all right is get up going to reach the bottom rung of sustainability
+[2442.30 --> 2450.12]  within two years you know so my runway is about done um you know the the good news is we do have
+[2450.12 --> 2455.88]  ash dryden who's you know up to like 800 bucks a week now and you know advertises on her profile that
+[2455.88 --> 2463.48]  she's 95 like 95 percent of her income comes from get up so clear answer yes you can make a living on
+[2463.48 --> 2470.12]  get it no questions asked done ash is doing it um there's other people that are that are trying as
+[2470.12 --> 2477.00]  well you know obviously not as successfully as ash um yeah i i pull what four or five hundred bucks a
+[2477.00 --> 2482.52]  week from it between what's given to me personally what i take from the get up team um which is almost
+[2482.52 --> 2486.56]  enough it's not quite i was gonna say you have four kids and a wife i have four kids and a wife and a
+[2486.56 --> 2493.10]  mortgage yes i've been burned down so i've been living off of uh get up and savings and welfare uh for
+[2493.10 --> 2499.34]  the past couple years and the the savings are about done and uh yeah so we're i we still have a week or
+[2499.34 --> 2503.90]  two to figure out a week or two what happens are you being serious with a week or two or you are you is
+[2503.90 --> 2508.64]  that a joke oh no no no that's that's not well i was saying a week or two to that one year that
+[2508.64 --> 2513.58]  june 1st two-year deadline but uh yeah that's that's definitely a conversation i'm having with
+[2513.58 --> 2517.86]  my wife right now is all right you know i you know the one question is do i still want to work
+[2517.86 --> 2523.44]  on get up and the answer is yes right like i believe in this i think it's going well um and you
+[2523.44 --> 2527.30]  know the second question is all right how do we make that work for you know for the next few years
+[2527.30 --> 2533.16]  uh and you know so we're sorting that out we we listed our house on airbnb so i've got a you know
+[2533.16 --> 2538.50]  our first visitor is showing up tonight and so but but then i but then i'm like all right but i want
+[2538.50 --> 2543.16]  to do pay what you want i don't want to you know if i'm gonna get some money from outside of gidip
+[2543.16 --> 2548.78]  i don't want it to you know like i don't want to charge people anymore for stuff that this is i just
+[2548.78 --> 2554.94]  wrote uh an exposition of our mission statement which is on the building gidip website there's so many
+[2554.94 --> 2559.30]  things to catch you guys up yeah so these are topics we want to hit so don't don't i mean i
+[2559.30 --> 2563.98]  want to i wanted to pause us for one second before we go there if you don't mind absolutely um two
+[2563.98 --> 2570.36]  years ago when july 12 2012 when you first launched gidip you read a post i believe in gidip and in there
+[2570.36 --> 2575.40]  you said you know you said lots of stuff obviously but one of the key things i pulled out to to earmark
+[2575.40 --> 2579.62]  for the show is just to kind of just put some truth there and some fact and this is a good time to
+[2579.62 --> 2586.90]  mention that is your goal at the time was 2000 a week you're at just under 500 a week and we're
+[2586.90 --> 2591.60]  obviously having this conversation so everyone's kind of caught up but you know you know that was a
+[2591.60 --> 2598.82]  goal of yours and you're kind of you're you know you're 25 there but by this time next year so when
+[2598.82 --> 2606.10]  did i post this july 12 2012 yeah so i didn't hit that july 12 2013 we're coming up on july 2014
+[2606.10 --> 2616.42]  um right so one of the things we've learned is that gidip is a market for caring what i mean by that
+[2616.42 --> 2627.16]  is you know i was making whatever at my old job but i had to do my old job you know and so the question
+[2627.16 --> 2634.68]  is how much would the internet have to pay you to quit your job and just not do anything like do
+[2634.68 --> 2642.18]  whatever you wanted right like is it 50 of what you were making before is it 80 of what you were
+[2642.18 --> 2647.82]  making before you know like what's the difference between your salary now and what the rest of us
+[2647.82 --> 2654.48]  would need to pay you to just quit your job and do whatever you wanted right be unfettered so for me
+[2654.48 --> 2662.86]  that's turned out to be a fairly high percentage you know like about 80 percent um you know i'm making
+[2662.86 --> 2669.32]  20 of what i was making at my old job roughly speaking and i love it like i wouldn't go back
+[2669.32 --> 2676.30]  you know so that two thousand dollar figure i put out uh two years ago that was i was actually still
+[2676.30 --> 2681.30]  i think i was still employed i think i i finished up at that job at the end of july um so i was still
+[2681.30 --> 2685.42]  employed at that old job and that's that was i was driving that number you know but then the question
+[2685.42 --> 2690.26]  has become like what's it worth to me you know what's it worth to me to not to have that no strings
+[2690.26 --> 2695.00]  attached i could wake up in the morning and work on stuff because i want to work on it and not
+[2695.00 --> 2699.06]  because i'm chasing a paycheck because there's there's value in that too i mean let's pause there
+[2699.06 --> 2704.88]  for a second because you can make an income and be strapped to a job and be not fruitful for your
+[2704.88 --> 2709.26]  family not fruitful for the you know the internet or the rest of the world however you want to pitch
+[2709.26 --> 2716.18]  that and but there's some extreme flexibility there's some extreme um freedom in the lifestyle
+[2716.18 --> 2722.08]  you've chosen that is separated from money and i think you know from a first world country
+[2722.08 --> 2727.10]  standpoint there's many many listeners to the changelog third world countries uh first world
+[2727.10 --> 2731.48]  countries with many different hardships that i can't even imagine but i'm in a privileged lifestyle
+[2731.48 --> 2737.76]  and this is how it is but they don't always pin back to just money you know our economy in this world
+[2737.76 --> 2744.10]  we all interact around money and that's what we sometimes derive value from identity from
+[2744.10 --> 2748.98]  and you've chosen a different lifestyle that has some freedom in it that maybe you don't make as
+[2748.98 --> 2753.30]  much money which is what the rest of the world thinks is value and we need to make your lifestyle
+[2753.30 --> 2758.46]  but you've chosen a different path yeah that's that's true man and that's that's that's what i
+[2758.46 --> 2761.88]  mean that's what it's a market for right it's like that's the question get it puts to you is like
+[2761.88 --> 2765.48]  what would we have to pay you or the rest of us have to pay you would we have to pay you the
+[2765.48 --> 2769.04]  two hundred thousand dollars you're making right now at your you know at your silicon valley
+[2769.04 --> 2774.80]  you know job or you know or could we pay you fifty thousand and you'd you know you'd be happy and
+[2774.80 --> 2781.00]  and productive whatever yeah it's so yeah that's that that's how that's evolved so i'm no longer
+[2781.00 --> 2785.88]  expecting two thousand dollars a week from get it well i just the reason why i wanted to put up there
+[2785.88 --> 2792.62]  is because you're a dreamer right and that that was that was probably a goal but it was a wish
+[2792.62 --> 2797.62]  and and now we're at some reality and you're making some serious choices for your family as
+[2797.62 --> 2801.86]  well as for get up so i just wanted to absolutely put that uh that out there to see what your thoughts
+[2801.86 --> 2808.00]  are on you know to reflect back on what your wishes and dreams were originally yeah yeah absolutely i
+[2808.00 --> 2812.36]  mean so you know so we're asking those questions right now we're trying to figure out you know it's
+[2812.36 --> 2815.98]  it's hard to lower expenses from where we're at right now you know so we're trying to figure out how
+[2815.98 --> 2822.38]  to up the income um you know so we my wife's been working uh the past couple couple months uh
+[2822.38 --> 2828.86]  you know just doing stuff for a friend nothing long term but maybe you know maybe maybe she needs
+[2828.86 --> 2833.62]  to get a job in the fall when the kids go back to school you know our kids are starting to get older
+[2833.62 --> 2839.36]  i mean this is all this is all this is all the personal stuff that uh i don't usually talk about
+[2839.36 --> 2845.68]  on twitter constantly but you know i'm happy to to discuss it um you know like i said we're we
+[2845.68 --> 2849.78]  we're renting out rooms on airbnb okay so the thing i wanted to say about that is that
+[2849.78 --> 2855.52]  i have the rooms listed at the airbnb minimum and i'm saying pay what you want right so like
+[2855.52 --> 2866.32]  i'm still i'm looking for ways another thing that gidip has gotten into or as has evolved into
+[2866.32 --> 2872.76]  is this idea of the pay what you want model right humble bundle is really good at it um you know
+[2872.76 --> 2878.82]  they've kind of proven that it can work uh and there's definitely you know there's there's people
+[2878.82 --> 2883.10]  studying it right like this is a this is a thing panera has tried opening a few pay what you want
+[2883.10 --> 2887.12]  stores so they're experimenting with it so i think pay what you want is a real thing that's going to
+[2887.12 --> 2895.16]  happen um you know gidip with individuals is very much patronage right so i kind of think of gidip
+[2895.16 --> 2901.92]  as being segmented into individuals and then companies groups uh you know organizations whatever like
+[2901.92 --> 2907.68]  that's two two segments so for individuals it's patronage you know i love you i love what you're
+[2907.68 --> 2911.20]  doing take this money and run with it you don't need you know you don't need to know it's from me
+[2911.20 --> 2919.02]  it's anonymous go um but then you've got like the gidip team or you know these hackerspaces like sudo room
+[2919.02 --> 2925.06]  that are using it now or model model view culture shanley's uh publication you know there there's these
+[2925.06 --> 2930.42]  teams there's these aggregations that are using gidip and they're i don't know i think we're gonna end up
+[2930.42 --> 2936.12]  seeing that a that evolves uh you know it evolves into something a little different than the patronage
+[2936.12 --> 2942.72]  model is with individuals you know um even the open company org you know the open company initiative
+[2942.72 --> 2947.80]  you know if we want to fund that on gidip well it'd be nice to know who the people are that are giving
+[2947.80 --> 2951.08]  money to the open company initiative you know because then you can call them your members right
+[2951.08 --> 2956.08]  um so we might need to relax some of those constraints around you know who can see who's giving
+[2956.08 --> 2962.42]  what to whom um but then also i think we want to find ways to use gidip to support a pay what you
+[2962.42 --> 2972.02]  want model shields shields io the little read me badges um i ended up uh acquiring did we talk did
+[2972.02 --> 2976.86]  this happen last time no but i acquired the shields yeah you acquired i was wondering it was her i didn't
+[2976.86 --> 2981.38]  pay attention to the finer details but i know that you had some kind of batch this goes back to what
+[2981.38 --> 2985.38]  you said a little bit earlier in the show where you kind of had some maybe some to some degree
+[2985.38 --> 2989.70]  private conversations and then you had an open call about the merge and i think you even did like
+[2989.70 --> 2999.10]  a fist bump virtually right yes yes yes yeah olivia and i we met at waza uh last year at heroku's
+[2999.10 --> 3005.70]  developer conference uh at the beginning of 2013 and didn't really you know i found out that he was
+[3005.70 --> 3010.78]  working on shield but we didn't really have any conversation about it but then people wanted it for
+[3010.78 --> 3016.90]  gidip you know people wanted a little gidip badge to put on their readmes um you know and shields
+[3016.90 --> 3022.86]  shields at that point was just some photoshop files and a design spec uh there was nothing dynamic there
+[3022.86 --> 3029.28]  was no server uh server implementation no server api no web api forward or anything and get it for our
+[3029.28 --> 3033.82]  implementation we needed something dynamic because we don't have just three states of badges you know
+[3033.82 --> 3038.60]  pass fail build pass fail kind of thing we wanted it to be more complex we wanted it to be dynamic so i
+[3038.60 --> 3044.46]  ended up getting involved in writing an implementation of that uh and then finding out i don't know it was
+[3044.46 --> 3051.10]  it was interesting because it was an exercise in cat herding you know what's what's an easier project
+[3051.10 --> 3057.50]  what's an easier weekend project than hacking together an api server for readme badges you know i mean
+[3057.50 --> 3062.72]  it's like you know it's something that you know any of us could do in an afternoon pretty much and so
+[3062.72 --> 3068.64]  a lot of us did and so we ended up with all these different uh implementations cropping up
+[3068.64 --> 3076.72]  and the the genius thing we found to do and it was nathan youngman i think his name is uh nathan uh
+[3076.72 --> 3086.92]  he's he's up in canada and his uh he's he's a go hacker and whatnot and somehow we had the org
+[3086.92 --> 3092.76]  badges the github org named badges one of the you know somebody had somebody had grabbed this
+[3092.76 --> 3099.80]  and nathan talked to this fella and agreed this fella agreed to let us use this badges organization
+[3099.80 --> 3104.78]  and we just started gathering all of the different repos you know so i think we have like 10 or 12 in
+[3104.78 --> 3110.92]  there now if you go to github org slash badges let's see what's on there now um you know one two
+[3110.92 --> 3118.28]  three four six yeah so there's like over a dozen of these uh repos a lot of them duplicated effort
+[3118.28 --> 3125.80]  you know but uh when we the pattern was we brought somebody in and we didn't take control of their
+[3125.80 --> 3130.32]  project because of course the permissions don't change on any of those right like it's just now
+[3130.32 --> 3135.22]  it's under the badges repo you know badges uh you know org instead of your personal github account
+[3135.22 --> 3138.74]  but it's still yours and you're still in charge of it you're still running it however you want
+[3138.74 --> 3145.22]  you know but it's shown to be part of this bigger effort and that really was a key step in bringing
+[3145.22 --> 3151.02]  everyone to the table and then saying all right here's the range of possibilities you know who
+[3151.02 --> 3155.24]  actually has the energy to do this and which way you know and what's you know now that we've seen what
+[3155.24 --> 3159.00]  all the possibilities for implementing this are like what's going to be our way forward and it's been
+[3159.00 --> 3166.98]  a success as far as that goes um you know there's a fella espadrine is his um is his github handle um
+[3166.98 --> 3171.24]  and he's running with it so he's the day-to-day maintainer uh you know he wrote the current
+[3171.24 --> 3176.28]  implementations and node implementation and he runs and maintains that project um you know but it
+[3176.28 --> 3181.50]  had an input from uh the rest of the community and kind of i don't know it was interesting i had never
+[3181.50 --> 3186.32]  had an experience before like that and and you know i want to hear i mean have you do you have other
+[3186.32 --> 3189.80]  examples of when that kind of thing has happened because i thought it was pretty remarkable just the
+[3189.80 --> 3195.02]  way that we brought together lots of different effort and it's kind of got it funneled in one direction
+[3195.02 --> 3202.16]  like do you know of other uh other projects that have evolved like that nothing that come to mind
+[3202.16 --> 3208.24]  for me you know i was just thinking yeah you know me neither you you guys are the open source uh you
+[3208.24 --> 3212.22]  know you've got the the lay of the land in front of you uh i don't know i thought i thought it was
+[3212.22 --> 3215.52]  really interesting we're keeping up just like everybody else i mean there's there's i was actually
+[3215.52 --> 3220.50]  just talking to a listener yesterday daniel i was on and he's uh from ottawa canada and he
+[3220.50 --> 3225.66]  told me about famous this javascript front-end framework that's making you know interfaces
+[3225.66 --> 3228.46]  easier and i'm like dude i didn't even know about that and he's like i thought you would have known
+[3228.46 --> 3233.50]  about it because you know i'm like we literally are just keeping up just like you no we just happen
+[3233.50 --> 3238.82]  to be a part of making sure everyone's kept up for lack of better terms yeah blogging about it yeah
+[3238.82 --> 3244.90]  podcasting um let's pause the show for just a minute give a shout out to our sponsors top towel
+[3244.90 --> 3249.56]  uh we've been working with top top for quite a while and i'm thrilled about this relationship i
+[3249.56 --> 3256.10]  think they have one of the most coolest most unique ways to basically connect businesses who need
+[3256.10 --> 3262.94]  really awesome elite engineers and also connect really awesome elite engineers to companies who have
+[3262.94 --> 3270.16]  awesome work to do so uh i mean that's the biggest uh biggest statement i can even give for them but
+[3270.16 --> 3274.56]  we thought it would make sense to take some time to circle back and talk to some of our listeners
+[3274.56 --> 3279.88]  who have applied to top towel and have been accepted because only about two to three percent of the
+[3279.88 --> 3286.52]  engineers who apply actually make it past their strict elite engineering process uh because they
+[3286.52 --> 3293.08]  want the best simply that so daniel lauzon a longtime fan and listener of the changelog is now living the
+[3293.08 --> 3298.76]  dream as an elite engineer at top towel and i say living the dream because he's now able to have
+[3298.76 --> 3304.50]  100 control of the types of projects and technology he's working on as well as the rate he wants
+[3304.50 --> 3311.46]  to charge so daniel earns 100 of his income as a top towel engineer and wanted me to pass on his
+[3311.46 --> 3317.12]  seal of approval so to speak of the top towel experience and for those of you out there who are
+[3317.12 --> 3323.50]  freelancing or would like to test out freelancing or try out a no risk freelance like project while
+[3323.50 --> 3327.18]  you maintain your full-time position to kind of mitigate that risk you can you got to check out
+[3327.18 --> 3334.00]  top towel t-o-p-t-a-l.com if you think you have what it takes head to top towel.com slash developers
+[3334.00 --> 3342.02]  to get started and tell them the changelog sent you um right so the you know shield relates to get it
+[3342.02 --> 3347.66]  in that the idea was let's fund this on get it you know this is going to take some amount of effort
+[3347.66 --> 3351.18]  going forward so let's figure out a pay what you want model right so like everybody's got these get up
+[3351.18 --> 3358.12]  you know these github read me badges they're all over the place every developer uses them you know
+[3358.12 --> 3363.18]  what if everyone who used one of these chipped 10 cents a week in to the maintenance of the service
+[3363.18 --> 3370.16]  that's behind it right as one uh user uh you know segment and then the other is the vendors such as
+[3370.16 --> 3376.92]  travis and coveralls and etc etc the ones that are actually uh you know providing the the badges the
+[3376.92 --> 3381.34]  services the badges relate to you know maybe they chip in 100 bucks a week or something you know
+[3381.34 --> 3384.58]  what i mean so it's like you've got the the companies coming together and giving you've got
+[3384.58 --> 3390.44]  the users coming together and giving a lot a little and uh and then you know we've got this funded so
+[3390.44 --> 3394.46]  now asperdrine is freed up to work on this and make it even better and maybe we can bring some
+[3394.46 --> 3400.82]  other people to the mix and make it happen even faster uh so that that we haven't gotten over the
+[3400.82 --> 3405.12]  hump on yet i haven't i haven't really put a lot of effort into that just because i've been
+[3405.12 --> 3407.88]  traveling and doing other stuff and that hasn't been a priority for me but it's kind of on the
+[3407.88 --> 3413.08]  back of my mind you know so now that we've kind of settled the technology side of it like let's
+[3413.08 --> 3418.92]  figure out the funding side of it um but that i don't know so that gets into a couple other things
+[3418.92 --> 3424.12]  let me frame this by saying and we're we're at 11 53 how long are we going today we're i'm gonna
+[3424.12 --> 3427.92]  think we're gonna skip the final questions besides the call to arms so we're gonna skip the normal
+[3427.92 --> 3432.76]  questions we do which takes about 15 minutes so we let's let's say another 12 minutes is that cool for
+[3432.76 --> 3443.88]  you jared okay yep okay um right so what i've been learning i think one of the themes is over the
+[3443.88 --> 3450.92]  past two years i come out of the open source world i come you know come at this with an open source
+[3450.92 --> 3459.72]  mindset and that's a very definite culture right building a company and building a product means
+[3459.72 --> 3470.06]  integrating and working with people coming from much different cultures right so for example visual
+[3470.06 --> 3479.00]  designers right um related to open source related to development but it's kind of its own thing you
+[3479.00 --> 3486.76]  know so i've you know i've been on this uh effort this year to try and bring design into gidip right to
+[3486.76 --> 3491.64]  try and uh breathe with both lungs is how we've been thinking about it you know like so we can
+[3491.64 --> 3496.74]  we can really deliver a world-class product it's been challenging to interface with designers and to
+[3496.74 --> 3503.78]  figure out how do designers fit in an open source culture that's been a challenge you know um same
+[3503.78 --> 3509.28]  thing same thing with journalists you know how how does this open model uh relate to journalism
+[3509.28 --> 3517.42]  we actually on the open company initiative uh uh we we did an experiment where we tried to bring in
+[3517.42 --> 3524.94]  journalists so we had um a woman named bronwyn clune who's a uh columnist for the guardian and we're
+[3524.94 --> 3529.86]  like all right let's try this experiment where you're writing content for us um but somehow you know
+[3529.86 --> 3535.84]  it's it's funded through gidip and so you know it was this little experiment in open journalism or
+[3535.84 --> 3542.92]  whatever right um didn't really go anywhere and and part of that was um you know i i saw it as kind
+[3542.92 --> 3548.88]  of a culture clash right like the culture of journalism is not uh you know it's not the culture
+[3548.88 --> 3556.98]  of open source necessarily that's two number three is um you know shanley and you know everything we're
+[3556.98 --> 3564.46]  hearing about last night not necessarily a fit with the open source culture i come from um you know
+[3564.46 --> 3569.38]  perhaps corrective to it in some ways and then a fourth one that i'll bring up is investors
+[3569.38 --> 3574.56]  this is tying you know so tying together a few themes here uh
+[3574.56 --> 3583.18]  we started talking very early two years ago uh had a conversation with um andy weissman who's from
+[3583.18 --> 3590.30]  union square ventures we had a long conversation pretty early after uh gidip launched where do
+[3590.30 --> 3596.14]  investors fit right if gidip is funded on gidip we'd charge as little as possible uh you know we
+[3596.14 --> 3602.36]  don't compensate our employees like what what's the role of the investor in this new uh you know this
+[3602.36 --> 3607.92]  this trail that we're blazing didn't have an answer uh for a couple years and then actually when i heard
+[3607.92 --> 3614.02]  from jason whenever it was last week i guess maybe it wasn't this week last week it occurred to me that
+[3614.02 --> 3618.62]  now our teams feature which i forget i don't know we were maybe just launching it a year ago but
+[3618.62 --> 3623.20]  we've got this teams feature now which is a whole nother thing and we'll have to talk about that next
+[3623.20 --> 3626.76]  year because it's too big for now but it's it's awesome it's actually one of the most important
+[3626.76 --> 3631.56]  things we're doing on gidip because it's how we say um you know it's not just about being a rock star
+[3631.56 --> 3636.34]  with you know 20 000 twitter followers that's not the only way to make money on gidip you know you can
+[3636.34 --> 3641.68]  be somebody who just does really good work and is you know um you know behind the scenes you can join
+[3641.68 --> 3649.70]  a team and the team is pulling the money in on the pay what you want model right and then you know and
+[3649.70 --> 3656.26]  you get a part of that um so you know because we've got that teams feature now we may have a way to
+[3656.26 --> 3660.16]  you know to bring investors into it but then you're getting you know then it's then it's business
+[3660.16 --> 3664.46]  i don't know then you're talking about marketing again right it's like how do you bring marketing
+[3664.46 --> 3667.66]  into this how do you how do you i mean that's where we're at with shield it's like so now we need
+[3667.66 --> 3672.30]  the marketer to come in and say here's the website we're going to build you know and and and drive
+[3672.30 --> 3678.32]  that end of it the business side of it um which just i don't know yes we've so i feel like all of
+[3678.32 --> 3685.04]  these roles that we're used to uh you know all these roles that we already have have uh have some
+[3685.04 --> 3691.44]  future in this uh you know thing that we're discovering together right um and i don't know exactly
+[3691.44 --> 3697.64]  what those look like yet but we're having a lot of fun finding out as we go
+[3697.64 --> 3706.50]  you seem to be every new hurdle you get past or every new um i guess roadblock blocker uh you
+[3706.50 --> 3712.08]  find a new one you know from the like you know all these it just seemed like each new challenge gets
+[3712.08 --> 3718.64]  uh you know has another challenge right behind it and i don't want to be discouraging what to say
+[3718.64 --> 3724.32]  this but i i sometimes wonder in myself how much more steam you particularly have left in your engine
+[3724.32 --> 3731.68]  because you're 80 of the fuel behind getup you know yeah i have a lot of steam man i have tons of
+[3731.68 --> 3736.98]  steam what i need is a little more money you know if i had you know if we can figure out how to get an
+[3736.98 --> 3742.74]  angel investor in here and you know give us a little breathing room yeah i don't know maybe like one of
+[3742.74 --> 3748.26]  our guys working on the team moved to nicaragua so he he quit his job and moved to nicaragua so he
+[3748.26 --> 3753.00]  could lower his burn rate and you know work on get it full time that's commitment right there that's
+[3753.00 --> 3757.96]  for sure yeah right that's humbling that's like so it isn't just chatted yeah like that's the exciting
+[3757.96 --> 3762.88]  thing it's like we do have people i'm not the only one working on full time in fact we're supposed to
+[3762.88 --> 3768.00]  have a stand-up in a couple minutes here right with with the team so it's not um the good news is
+[3768.00 --> 3774.30]  it's not just chad um we do have a team i have people handling support you know frontline support
+[3774.30 --> 3777.90]  and then they escalate to me if we need to so so the pieces are coming together it's just
+[3777.90 --> 3782.74]  you know it's it's chicken and egg and we're boiling the ocean and that just takes a little
+[3782.74 --> 3788.32]  longer than usual you know let me ask you a quick yeah let me ask you this sure give me a moment to
+[3788.32 --> 3792.76]  set this up because it might be kind of just a long setup but uh are you familiar with patreon
+[3792.76 --> 3798.22]  which seems to be oh my gosh i was just about to bring patreon into this and i was like i don't need
+[3798.22 --> 3802.68]  to do that but uh okay yeah let's go there let's go there okay i'm gonna go there briefly um just
+[3802.68 --> 3805.92]  because you know you're talking about the patronage model and i just remember there was another
+[3805.92 --> 3810.82]  website doing patronage and i've been on their website kind of comparing contrasting patreon and
+[3810.82 --> 3816.76]  get it yeah and they seem to have more steam they have uh you know a few bigger names in the arts
+[3816.76 --> 3822.14]  especially in podcasting and kind of online media people making eleven thousand dollars a month
+[3822.14 --> 3826.82]  via the patronage model right um and i'm trying to think to myself what's the difference between
+[3826.82 --> 3830.32]  where you're at and i don't know their whole backstory maybe they're older i'm guessing they're not
+[3830.32 --> 3834.80]  they're not they're younger funding they're they have funding so they're they're not setting the
+[3834.80 --> 3839.88]  plows deep they're not funded on their own platform they skim off the top right so they're not setting
+[3839.88 --> 3845.74]  the plows deep so they're you know it's not making it easier on themselves um well yeah another way to
+[3845.74 --> 3850.78]  say that it would be another way to say it you know so you know their background is um you know jack
+[3850.78 --> 3860.16]  conti we did a call jack and i and uh and uh and len kendall from sent up and lena's from uh from
+[3860.16 --> 3865.28]  flatter we did a call the four of us uh it was like two weeks after patreon launched or something
+[3865.28 --> 3869.84]  right so it was it maybe it hadn't even launched yet it was like really early in their cycle
+[3869.84 --> 3877.34]  in their life cycle and uh i don't know right and then and ever since and i've been watching uh
+[3877.34 --> 3881.42]  google trends you know i'll go to google trends and look at get up in patreon it's like all right
+[3881.42 --> 3887.98]  so that's what a hockey stick looks like god damn it right and so i get so burned man it's like why
+[3887.98 --> 3893.76]  why is that not us and and i get really discouraged when i look at it from that point of view right
+[3893.76 --> 3896.28]  this is i think i mentioned this at the beginning of the call and this is what i had in mind right
+[3896.28 --> 3900.22]  like i get really discouraged when i look at the google trend search for patreon and get it because
+[3900.22 --> 3904.00]  patreon is hockey stick right and people are coming to me and being like hey do you know about
+[3904.00 --> 3906.90]  patreon like my non-tech friends are like you know about patreon it's like yes i know
+[3906.90 --> 3911.18]  yes i know right well i didn't yeah i didn't i didn't bring it up in order to do that to you
+[3911.18 --> 3915.40]  well so look sorry but let me ask you yeah the other thing i noticed on their home page is like
+[3915.40 --> 3919.06]  featured in tech crunch and i started thinking about your situation with yeah and then i asked
+[3919.06 --> 3923.88]  that game man they're playing that myself they got two million dollars of capital right they took
+[3923.88 --> 3928.00]  investment like the the they have two founders the one guy is jack who's the front man that everybody
+[3928.00 --> 3933.18]  sees because he's the youtube star right so he's already plugged into this scene like youtube stars have
+[3933.18 --> 3938.78]  fans open source programmers don't have fans you know so it's like he's already plugged into a scene
+[3938.78 --> 3943.64]  and tapped into a market and like speaking the language of a culture of you know this crew that
+[3943.64 --> 3949.78]  has fans and has reach beyond what i do right so that's what jack's bringing the table and his friend
+[3949.78 --> 3954.76]  sam i think it is i don't remember but you know his co-founder is the technical co-founder who's a
+[3954.76 --> 3960.30]  serial co-founder who's you know already had you know two previous companies that he's done they're in
+[3960.30 --> 3963.78]  silicon valley they're in san francisco you know they're playing the game straight down the middle
+[3963.78 --> 3968.64]  you know what i mean it's like you know and they're yes and so featured in tech crunch and wired and
+[3968.64 --> 3974.42]  blah you know etc etc etc right like and this is what it looks like so i don't know so i kick myself
+[3974.42 --> 3979.40]  because i'm like do i really i hit this a week or two ago i was like do i really believe in get up again
+[3979.40 --> 3985.40]  you know like it's coming back is more is more uh i'm now hypothesizing that perhaps you know you would
+[3985.40 --> 3988.78]  have been in tech crunch maybe you would have had an investment if it wasn't for the open strategy
+[3988.78 --> 3994.86]  and so my question framing all this is yep is get up success more important or is your open
+[3994.86 --> 4001.58]  uh the radical transparency more important to you chad good question i mean just oh boy it's really
+[4001.58 --> 4005.68]  hard that that's what's holding it back it might not be what's holding it back but so so to me they're
+[4005.68 --> 4013.18]  the same right like get up is it is open company you know like get it get it for me is um is this
+[4013.18 --> 4020.22]  idea that i can wake up in the morning and i can give i can give um i can live out of a place of
+[4020.22 --> 4027.22]  gratitude and generosity and i can give freely of my labor and my resources without asking anything
+[4027.22 --> 4033.14]  in return right and that is not what patreon is building and so we're not even competitors when you
+[4033.14 --> 4037.98]  look at it that way like so in my view it's like we're not even competitors you know like if if
+[4037.98 --> 4041.80]  patreon wants to compete with me then they need to be funded on their own platform and it needs to
+[4041.80 --> 4047.42]  be no strings attached gifts you know and then i'll just go you know work on their platform like
+[4047.42 --> 4052.30]  i can't work on their platform they could come work on mine because i'm totally open i couldn't go work
+[4052.30 --> 4057.12]  on their platform like i that's that's it's apples and oranges when i really get down to it you know
+[4057.12 --> 4062.82]  so yeah i i don't separate there is the open company thing from from get it yeah that's where we're
+[4062.82 --> 4068.60]  going i don't know yeah who knows maybe a year from now i'll just be well so this is what we need to
+[4068.60 --> 4073.32]  get uh so what would what would i have done instead of we'll do these quickly what would i have done
+[4073.32 --> 4080.48]  instead of gidip what would i be doing if i wasn't doing gidip yeah oh man i was so ready to just
+[4080.48 --> 4088.96]  give up on the internet and go move in with the amish um yesterday but we worked through that i would i
+[4088.96 --> 4094.82]  would be amish if i could that's what i would do short answer there my hero is still guido van rossam
+[4094.82 --> 4102.62]  the creator of pycon python and pycon i guess by extension um i i got to actually with kenneth um
+[4102.62 --> 4107.64]  i texted kenneth uh i hadn't seen him you know hadn't really sat down with him for for a couple
+[4107.64 --> 4111.98]  conferences and i said kenneth let's get together for supper he said okay cool let me see if that
+[4111.98 --> 4118.98]  works out with the other folks i'm with and it ended up being me and kenneth and uh and and mike and
+[4118.98 --> 4125.30]  maddie from ottawa and guido the five of us went out to dinner together right and so nice i ended up
+[4125.30 --> 4129.30]  like getting to have dinner with guido and it was like hi i'm chad i'm guido and so i got to actually
+[4129.30 --> 4135.00]  meet him after a decade of doing python stuff which is pretty special so he's and he's still my hero i
+[4135.00 --> 4141.26]  like that guy he's doing great call to action ha go fund somebody on patreon
+[4141.26 --> 4152.80]  go go yeah you know go work for the go work for the the man the crowd man i don't know yeah yeah you
+[4152.80 --> 4157.84]  know go go give your labor away but only in response you know only only because other people
+[4157.84 --> 4163.62]  give you money for it don't give your stuff away for free that's not the future hold on don't share
+[4163.62 --> 4168.72]  oh am i being bitter are we ending on a bitter yeah i was gonna say don't end like that be given
+[4168.72 --> 4172.72]  honest call to arms i mean okay think about it like this you got a lot of listeners that are thinking
+[4172.72 --> 4179.04]  i want to support get up i don't know how to do it how can i do it so this is where i'll bring in
+[4179.04 --> 4186.94]  building get up we have a new site um called building.getup.com and that site is is new this year
+[4186.94 --> 4192.82]  and it's our documentation site for our team for people working on get up right so you go there
+[4192.82 --> 4196.34]  and it starts with a big picture it says here's what our mission is here's where we're going
+[4196.34 --> 4202.00]  and then it zooms in and says here's the process we use here's our brand guidelines here's how we
+[4202.00 --> 4205.94]  understand our audience and who we're working towards it answers all those big questions and
+[4205.94 --> 4211.48]  then it hopefully gets you plugged in uh to the issue tracker and understanding how we work and
+[4211.48 --> 4217.24]  get you into github and into irc so that is the place to start if you want to help us hack on get it
+[4217.24 --> 4226.10]  and if you want to use get it then use get it get it.com uh for you know support think here's the
+[4226.10 --> 4232.10]  question who inspires you who is the one person that you love what they're doing and you want to
+[4232.10 --> 4238.36]  give them a quarter week go to get it.com and set that up now even though that funnel is pretty leaky
+[4238.36 --> 4245.02]  but go do it anyway how about that you can also support get up directly on there as well as wit
+[4245.02 --> 4251.42]  537 which apparently would also support get up directly i believe yeah if you like what we're doing
+[4251.42 --> 4257.44]  we're there awesome but get up will work for me because it's working for everybody you know so
+[4257.44 --> 4263.18]  do that there were uh i want to circle back with you maybe some other way i i feel like when we get
+[4263.18 --> 4267.22]  to the end of these calls sometimes we don't get all the things and there was the some stuff with dhh
+[4267.22 --> 4271.22]  and open source specific to listeners that are going to be close to their heart they're thinking like
+[4271.22 --> 4277.42]  why don't you talk about his call with dhh and funding open source uh so i think while the dude i
+[4277.42 --> 4282.04]  love that i love when you sit down and talk to somebody for 45 minutes they're a real person
+[4282.04 --> 4287.44]  you know that was a cool conversation honestly i love that i think it's really powerful i'd love
+[4287.44 --> 4290.90]  to see more of that i'll tell you what we'll do if you don't mind we'll we'll put a post on the
+[4290.90 --> 4297.06]  change log uh with that video in it and i'd like to just maybe even do something different break our
+[4297.06 --> 4301.74]  normal mode of like maybe do another follow-up call i mean who says you can't be on here twice in
+[4301.74 --> 4304.68]  one year doesn't really matter to me i just want to have i think you're doing some pretty cool
+[4304.68 --> 4309.46]  stuff and people need to know about it it's a long story short you know really and i i don't want
+[4309.46 --> 4314.72]  you i mean almost is cool and all but don't go do that keep doing the get up thing well yeah everybody
+[4314.72 --> 4320.34]  who's listening go to get up right now give to teams you love give to people you love um you know
+[4320.34 --> 4324.34]  whether they're activists whether they're open source it doesn't matter figure out who's on there
+[4324.34 --> 4328.14]  and if they're not on there get up has a way to bring them on there easily for you so go and
+[4328.14 --> 4333.10]  figure out who inspires you and truly give and and maybe even become a receiver yourself
+[4333.10 --> 4339.28]  and if you're a company go in there too and give yeah hopefully we'll make it easier we'll improve
+[4339.28 --> 4344.40]  the product it'll be easier for everybody we'll do it together well you know chad i'd love to keep
+[4344.40 --> 4348.56]  you on the show for as long as we we we love to kidnap you and just talk to you for for years on
+[4348.56 --> 4354.72]  end honestly but um you know as much as we can be we want to be an encouragement to you we want to
+[4354.72 --> 4361.10]  be encouragement to the contributors of get up um whatever we can to support you in the future now
+[4361.10 --> 4365.80]  and and in the future let us know we'll be there for you we're we're uh brothers and sisters in
+[4365.80 --> 4370.30]  arms so to speak so don't don't feel like you're an island you're not an island where we're we're the
+[4370.30 --> 4376.42]  tree on your island so um before we close i want to give a little shout out to um our sponsors we got
+[4376.42 --> 4382.36]  rack space code ship and uh top towel who support this show so thank you for their support and as a
+[4382.36 --> 4387.52]  matter of fact all three of those are not only sponsors of the change law but they're also partners
+[4387.52 --> 4391.52]  with the change logs that's that's really neat they they care about our long-term future so
+[4391.52 --> 4396.80]  they've put roots in the change log and they care so that's uh that's super awesome and if you
+[4396.80 --> 4402.86]  haven't yet we shoot out a weekly email it's been a little on a small hiatus but uh tune in you know
+[4402.86 --> 4407.40]  because we got some some fun stuff coming up so the change all.com slash weekly to get updates
+[4407.40 --> 4414.12]  on fresh and new open source in your email inbox every week uh chat again thank you so much for
+[4414.12 --> 4418.50]  for coming and talking to me and jared it's been an absolute pleasure listeners thank you for
+[4418.50 --> 4424.86]  listening tuning in live if you're tuning in live uh next week uh we're getting better at making sure
+[4424.86 --> 4429.44]  our schedule is full so next week we have felix guys and over coming on the show talking about
+[4429.44 --> 4436.66]  robotics uh node copter if you're into drones of any sort tune into this show it's going to be a blast
+[4436.66 --> 4441.78]  but uh that's the topic uh for next week but until until then let's uh let's say goodbye
+[4441.78 --> 4447.40]  uh very cool thanks for having me on the show you guys yep thanks for coming bye bye everyone
+[4447.40 --> 4449.40]  you
+[4471.78 --> 4479.40]  you
+[4479.40 --> 4481.40]  you
+[4481.40 --> 4483.40]  you
+[4483.40 --> 4485.40]  you
+[4485.40 --> 4487.40]  you
+[4487.40 --> 4489.40]  you
+[4489.40 --> 4491.40]  you
+[4491.40 --> 4493.40]  you

Go, Martini, Gophercasts_transcript.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,699 @@
+[0.00 --> 14.80]  welcome back everyone this is the changelog where a member supported blog podcast and weekly email
+[14.80 --> 20.76]  what's fresh and what's new in open source you can check out the blog at the changelog.com our
+[20.76 --> 26.62]  past shows can be found at 5by5.tv slash changelog and subscribe to the changelog weekly that's our
+[26.62 --> 31.12]  weekly email we send out every saturday covering everything that hits our open source radar
+[31.12 --> 37.54]  subscribe at the changelog.com slash weekly you're listening to episode 117 where jared
+[37.54 --> 43.74]  santon and i talk to jeremy signs about go martini the go ecosystem and even a little bit of node as
+[43.74 --> 49.44]  well today's show is sponsored by digital ocean new relic and top towel we'll tell you a bit more
+[49.44 --> 55.26]  about new relic and top towel later in the show so stay tuned but our friends at digital ocean they're
+[55.26 --> 60.44]  a simple cloud hosting provider dedicated to offering the most intuitive ways to spin up a
+[60.44 --> 66.28]  cloud server you can spin up a cloud server in 55 seconds with full root access and it just doesn't
+[66.28 --> 71.98]  get any easier than that pricing plans start out affordably at five bucks a month for half a gig of
+[71.98 --> 79.02]  ram 20 gigs of ssd ssd drive space one cpu one terabyte of transfer and if you only need a server
+[79.02 --> 84.02]  for a few days or to test an app you can even rent that server basically by the hour so it's
+[84.02 --> 93.08]  super inexpensive just 0.007 cents an hour that's like it's hard to even say but it's less than a
+[93.08 --> 100.58]  penny per hour it's 0.7 of a cent so super affordable but we have an awesome promo code for you to use
+[100.58 --> 108.04]  use the promo code changelog april to get a 10 hosting credit when you sign up head to digitalocean.com
+[108.04 --> 114.66]  to get started and now on to the show we're joined today by jeremy signs also known as code gangsta we
+[114.66 --> 120.08]  had a quick laugh there for a bit but uh he's known as code gangsta on twitter and github and i guess
+[120.08 --> 125.08]  probably everywhere else right jeremy that's right uh pretty much everywhere else except skype my skype
+[125.08 --> 132.30]  name has not changed yet as you guys see yeah he's here to talk to uh to me and the managing editor of
+[132.30 --> 139.00]  the changelog jared santo about the go programming language his fun with it what he's been doing uh
+[139.00 --> 144.68]  specifically his web framework for go called martini and a bunch of other fun stuff so jeremy
+[144.68 --> 151.68]  welcome to the show man oh thanks i'm really glad to be on here so i i know that uh you've been a fan
+[151.68 --> 157.04]  of the changelog right i do you tweeted it to us a couple maybe a week back and and uh we wanted to
+[157.04 --> 160.36]  get you on the show anyways and you just kind of fast forwarded that a little bit yeah yeah i've
+[160.36 --> 167.64]  been catching up on episodes um the first one i watched i'm not a long time fan but i uh i started
+[167.64 --> 173.40]  watching uh katrina katrina owens podcast and i started catching up on all the other ones since
+[173.40 --> 178.90]  then and um yeah i think it's a great podcast i i personally love the idea of podcasts i try to
+[178.90 --> 185.22]  listen to as many as as possible and uh yeah so i'm super glad to be on here i'm glad i was able to
+[185.22 --> 192.76]  just like uh totally get in your face and be like put me on the show yeah that's cool but jared was on
+[192.76 --> 196.70]  uh the katrina show as well we had fun on that one didn't we jared yeah that show actually probably
+[196.70 --> 203.54]  has a lot of similar similarities to this one between the ruby and go influence yeah and uh you've been
+[203.54 --> 212.28]  uh doing different uh what do they call it exercises in uh exorcism oh me oh yeah yeah i don't know i guess
+[212.28 --> 218.74]  exercises is is the fair term exorcism.io was is katrina's project yeah and yeah i've been having
+[218.74 --> 225.32]  a lot of fun uh getting my code reviewed up in there and nitpicked as she likes to call it and uh
+[225.32 --> 231.96]  that's right yes learn a lot you learn a lot yes well jim but where do we where do we begin for you
+[231.96 --> 238.74]  i mean i know that gangsta oh man let's hear it like what code gangsta so the cat's getting out of
+[238.74 --> 243.20]  the bag now we'll get it out of the way here because yeah so this goes all the yeah this goes
+[243.20 --> 247.98]  and you can find out more about it on my blog but this goes all the way back to me starting in the
+[247.98 --> 256.34]  industry um i actually started in the flash and flex world doing front-end development um and the way i
+[256.34 --> 263.60]  got into it was i was graduating high school and i didn't really know what to do with my life so i i
+[263.60 --> 268.42]  ended up going to this conference about programming that i didn't really know too much about and to
+[268.42 --> 273.12]  break the ice and to kind of meet people there i entered into this video contest and i was like do
+[273.12 --> 278.90]  you know what i have a background in music i have a background in audio i'm gonna make a technical rap
+[278.90 --> 287.00]  song and i made this uh rap song called flex gangsta and that was my uh that was that was my name for a
+[287.00 --> 294.00]  while i i did a couple rap songs um after that and i don't really talk about it too much anymore
+[294.00 --> 299.76]  but i still have code gangsta floating around and it's it's kind of fun to to see people every once
+[299.76 --> 305.36]  in a while i'd be like oh my gosh you're you're code gang or you're flex gangsta or you're code gangsta
+[305.36 --> 310.88]  and it's funny seeing certain implementations of the song like some people have it uh some people
+[310.88 --> 316.82]  have one of the songs which is uh titled who broke the build uh it's tied in with their jenkins server
+[316.82 --> 321.12]  so if somebody actually breaks the build they like send the video or send the song to them via email
+[321.12 --> 326.62]  or it plays in the office so so these tracks are out there to be to be heard right now on the web
+[326.62 --> 332.34]  they're on youtube if you search flex gangsta you would find them on youtube nice so then you
+[332.34 --> 336.88]  switch to code gangsta because you just figured you're going to get more abstract and just genericize
+[336.88 --> 342.76]  your name or something oh yeah yeah i left the flash world um oh quite a while ago and so it's not
+[342.76 --> 350.86]  as relevant anymore uh flexgangsta.com did you know there's a.com i i think that is my flexgangsta.com
+[350.86 --> 356.06]  there you go updated in a very long time and you got who broke the build on there that's awesome we'll
+[356.06 --> 360.38]  link out that in the show notes but you can go to flexgangsta.com right now if you want to but we'll
+[360.38 --> 364.78]  in the show notes we'll have some some links out to it yeah if you find me at a conference and buy
+[364.78 --> 371.26]  me a drink i might i might do some raps for you fair warning wow have you ever seen uh chris anderson's
+[371.26 --> 378.78]  uh couch db song it's probably not quite as epic as your your uh your rap you know what i have not
+[378.78 --> 386.44]  on the channel like a while a while ago we we met him at uh him and uh yon leonard we met them at uh
+[386.44 --> 394.14]  south by and uh we had uh chris anderson right there they were there obviously for south by and
+[394.14 --> 401.02]  and he was just like he's a crazy guy anyways and he was just riffing and uh it's like bump bump couch db
+[401.02 --> 405.48]  it's just like a little thing i'll have to point back to the episode so y'all can listen to it but
+[405.48 --> 411.00]  it's pretty funny oh man it must be a thing with coders we like to we like to rap that's right it's
+[411.00 --> 419.92]  the it's the way we communicate so code gangsta so who would have known who would have thunk you know
+[419.92 --> 428.32]  so jeremy i think the first time i i i saw your name i saw the code gangsta handle um was on your blog
+[428.32 --> 432.30]  and you wrote a post that ended up kind of making the rounds at least in the tech community
+[432.30 --> 438.94]  um around your switch from ruby to go um specifically i think it was around command line applications
+[438.94 --> 447.86]  yeah oh yeah yeah so uh this is kind of how like hacker news operates if you write a post that is
+[447.86 --> 456.14]  even remotely could even possibly be somewhat controversial it will be on the front page and
+[456.14 --> 462.98]  stay on the front page and that's precisely what happened basically um i wrote a post titled
+[462.98 --> 468.74]  on distributing command command line applications why i switched from ruby to go you know that sounds
+[468.74 --> 475.02]  very uh it still sounds very nice it still sounds very civil but instead hacker news chopped off that
+[475.02 --> 481.68]  front part and just titled it why i switched from ruby to go oh my gosh flame bait and uh yeah
+[481.68 --> 488.32]  definitely got a discussion going um there was no intention to be controversial whatsoever um i i
+[488.32 --> 492.80]  simply came from a place where i was writing a lot of command line apps in ruby um specifically like
+[492.80 --> 498.06]  production facing command line apps that we were distributing to users who were not who are not rubyists
+[498.06 --> 504.88]  um so to uh one we didn't want to distribute it as a ruby gem because why why be like just use
+[504.88 --> 513.44]  ruby gems to a guy who's not writing ruby and uh so we had to do all these crazy things like vendor our
+[513.44 --> 519.36]  gems and you know distribute our own version of ruby package it up in an installer and like cross your
+[519.36 --> 525.56]  fingers and hope it all works on you know somebody's distribution um and that was just a very very painful
+[525.56 --> 532.32]  process to work out just to get ruby running um on somebody's machine so i looked into some other
+[532.32 --> 538.94]  alternatives and it seemed like go is uh very you know very unix focused so it means it's probably
+[538.94 --> 546.74]  pretty good for the command line and i just loved how simple it was to construct uh really good command
+[546.74 --> 552.54]  line applications that ran fast that were compiled into a single binary and could be cross compiled to
+[552.54 --> 558.46]  multiple os's so that's that's mainly why i wrote that uh wrote that blog post and wrote a library called
+[558.46 --> 563.12]  cli um and it seems to be people seem to be following in that same sentiment that's like
+[563.12 --> 568.40]  if you're not writing a tool for rubyists to use while they're developing ruby you probably don't
+[568.40 --> 573.04]  want to write a command line tool in ruby it's just it's too painful which i think i mean just
+[573.04 --> 580.26]  we're hearkening back uh to katrina again she had a similar experience with her exorcism command line
+[580.26 --> 587.40]  client where she wanted exorcism to be not just ruby focused but you know there's python uh exercises
+[587.40 --> 592.72]  there's haskell i think now copy script there's all sorts of languages and so she wanted to remove
+[592.72 --> 599.36]  that dependency for people to use her tool from the command line the ruby dependency so she ended up
+[599.36 --> 604.34]  rewriting her command line piece and go so let me ask you this then if you're moving from
+[604.34 --> 610.96]  distributing is a ruby gem and not requiring ruby you're distributing is go but is it still required
+[610.96 --> 618.42]  then is go required uh no go allows you to cross compile um basically to a standalone binary which
+[618.42 --> 625.56]  is really great um because it'll it'll basically work on any os that has libc pretty much and so
+[625.56 --> 629.22]  drop it into your bin folder hopefully you got that in your path and you're good to go yep exactly
+[629.22 --> 637.02]  um and the great part i mentioned cross compiling um uh in general it is dependent on what you do but
+[637.02 --> 643.30]  in general you can cross compile most applications um meaning like on my on my mac box i can compile for
+[643.30 --> 650.96]  windows and different flavors of of linux and my mac as well um and even stuff like arm and that way i
+[650.96 --> 655.72]  can just like here's a distribution here's a release and i just like build it all on one computer which
+[655.72 --> 664.02]  is which is really great nice so yeah the fruit of that came uh your project cli.go are you still
+[664.02 --> 668.48]  maintaining that is it ongoing or is it kind of a finished thing and maybe explain exactly what it
+[668.48 --> 675.00]  what it provides yeah so i am maintaining it um there are going to be small little additions to it
+[675.00 --> 680.96]  the way the api is structured it's not uh it's not meant to be changed a lot and and it kind of
+[680.96 --> 688.02]  falls in line with the philosophy behind go packages currently um which is keep master always
+[688.02 --> 694.40]  backwards compatible um and i haven't there's been edge cases obviously to try to fix and and some
+[694.40 --> 698.58]  edge case problems but in general most people seem to be pretty happy with it and it seems to be a very
+[698.58 --> 704.50]  good starting point for creating command line apps and generating help docs and everything like that but
+[704.50 --> 709.60]  i'll be honest it's not the most extensible framework in the world it was really just meant to be like
+[709.60 --> 714.64]  i don't want to think about you know help docs and parsing sub commands and parsing flags i just want to
+[714.64 --> 719.48]  start writing the actual meat of the code and so that's what it does and it does it tends to do it
+[719.48 --> 725.92]  pretty well and so i think that's where the popularity of the library came from right on so
+[725.92 --> 731.68]  you just kind of triggered a a tangential question that i've been waiting to ask somebody who's who's
+[731.68 --> 738.66]  in the go community what's the the package management story in go um how does that fit into like if
+[738.66 --> 745.48]  you're building a command line application or even with martini um is there i know there's go get is
+[745.48 --> 753.44]  that the is that the whole story yeah so uh right now the package solution or the the the package
+[753.44 --> 758.72]  management solution for for go is it just a very simple one it's a very primitive one you use go get
+[758.72 --> 765.62]  you can import uh libraries with go get the the great part about how imports and go get works
+[765.62 --> 772.96]  is that um a path is a path is a path meaning my library when i imported my code is github.com
+[772.96 --> 779.48]  slash code gangsta slash cli um that way if it will first check locally on your computer if you have it
+[779.48 --> 784.96]  and if you don't it will go and pull it down so um it's cool to have that kind of uniform identifier
+[784.96 --> 790.48]  uh with your code so that's why you've got to keep master good yes that's why you got to keep
+[790.48 --> 796.08]  master good is there's no um as of right now there's no built-in idea of versioning and that
+[796.08 --> 803.58]  is intentional uh it is intentional at least for the moment um because a lot of the go maintainers
+[803.58 --> 809.16]  want you to build packages that are useful and that do uh that are small that do you know a certain
+[809.16 --> 816.02]  set of things very well that aren't going to be you know completely innovative innovated and iterated
+[816.02 --> 823.98]  upon during its development cycle um there are some there are some initiatives for bringing in
+[823.98 --> 829.56]  things like versioning because we realize that's like theoretically a really cool idea but in practice
+[829.56 --> 835.70]  it's it it can be harmful depending on you know how many dependencies you're pulling in and how you're
+[835.70 --> 840.14]  managing those and i know there are external tools for doing them that i use for certain projects
+[840.14 --> 846.52]  and there's some other solutions that i've been uh working on as well uh specifically with regards
+[846.52 --> 851.90]  to martini and cli um to be able to iterate on those packages for people to be able to pull in
+[851.90 --> 858.90]  versions uh that are different so you mentioned jared you mentioned go get and are you going to
+[858.90 --> 865.80]  allude to the fact of like go unget because i don't know how to not get long story short i don't
+[865.80 --> 870.00]  either you know what i mean like if i if i if i go get something i want to like let's say uninstall
+[870.00 --> 876.06]  remove it how do you uninstall things um you remove the folder where it's at see that's what i thought
+[876.06 --> 880.66]  and that's what i was doing i was like am i an idiot or something so at least i'm not an idiot hey man
+[880.66 --> 886.96]  you're doing it right yeah is that the i mean is that really the way that is it just because go is
+[886.96 --> 891.88]  somewhat new and the things are still kind of evolving how things should work and yep i think i think
+[891.88 --> 899.02]  we're since go is still a fairly new language fairly new technology um and it's very grounded
+[899.02 --> 904.26]  in unix philosophy so a pure unix guy would be like yeah there's no problem deleting a folder that's
+[904.26 --> 907.90]  what you do that's what folders are for that's what directories are for and that's what the file
+[907.90 --> 913.30]  system's for um but i could understand it being a roadblock for people who are used to having tools
+[913.30 --> 918.38]  take care of a lot of things for them i think even though the folder it comes in has a bunch of
+[918.38 --> 924.22]  other stuff in it so i'm like should i delete that stuff you know i guess as a someone coming
+[924.22 --> 931.40]  in that with lack of experience in it i'm like you kind of have a an immediate bit of fear you know
+[931.40 --> 936.90]  should i do that well what was the cause of it or what would happen if i do do that and then next
+[936.90 --> 941.68]  thing you know you've got your go directory that's got bin package and source in there and you got like
+[941.68 --> 947.30]  do i just delete it all like some of it and you're you know that's that's where i that's where i was
+[947.30 --> 953.20]  like i'm not sure adam i think the answer for you is you keep jeremy available on skype okay and
+[953.20 --> 958.02]  then you just throw these questions at him as you go that's right you'll just right i'm here all
+[958.02 --> 965.10]  night so you so so you do this command line app and you enjoy distributing command line applications
+[965.10 --> 970.64]  with go are you doing this for your for your work as well or is it all for play uh for command
+[970.64 --> 978.40]  line stuff it's all for play in general uh we do use some of the tools uh one of them um one of them
+[978.40 --> 984.52]  i'm working on is called envy it's an environment bootstrapper and it if you're used to working with
+[984.52 --> 992.10]  web frameworks like you know express and node.js or or rails and ruby there's a concept of a .env file
+[992.10 --> 996.70]  which is basically saying we want to store our configuration in in our environment we don't
+[996.70 --> 1001.90]  want to like run a run a shell script every time to like bootstrap our environment and we obviously
+[1001.90 --> 1006.86]  don't want to like have anything checked into the repo um for that stuff because we're dealing with
+[1006.86 --> 1014.38]  passwords and you know tokens for authentication for certain services so you have a .env file that
+[1014.38 --> 1018.86]  declares all that stuff and it's local to your machine um so you can set it up and manipulate it
+[1018.86 --> 1026.50]  however you want uh so this this env bootstrapper called envy allows you to do this in a generic way
+[1026.50 --> 1031.36]  most .env implementations are tied to the language you use them in like node.js or
+[1031.36 --> 1039.68]  uh javascript for node.js or ruby for rails this one's very generic all you do is you call envy and
+[1039.68 --> 1044.32]  then you pass whatever command you want after it and it will bootstrap the environment and then run
+[1044.32 --> 1049.00]  the command that way you have all your environment variables present to you and you they're all declared
+[1049.00 --> 1053.06]  inside of a file so it's really really cool for running servers it's great for development
+[1053.06 --> 1057.96]  uh for web development for command line development for any of those things
+[1057.96 --> 1065.64]  nice so you do that one for work where'd martini uh come from was this just a natural extension of
+[1065.64 --> 1070.54]  of building command line applications and now you said okay now i want to build my web applications and go
+[1070.54 --> 1080.36]  yep so martini uh came out of i i do uh web work for uh my day job and i wanted to i was building some
+[1080.36 --> 1084.86]  angular front ends and we were looking at a new project and we're looking at doing you know more
+[1084.86 --> 1091.78]  distributed architecture we we were usually a rails shop and in these new projects we're writing node.js
+[1091.78 --> 1097.38]  we wanted to write go we want to write some more you know ruby and rails and we just want basically want to
+[1097.38 --> 1104.44]  find the best tool for the job for each uh particular section of our application so that made me excited
+[1104.44 --> 1109.48]  because i was playing with go for command line stuff already and so i started playing with go for the web
+[1109.48 --> 1113.96]  and i played with a bunch of other frameworks and i built a couple projects in different frameworks just
+[1113.96 --> 1121.10]  to get a get a feel for them and i was having a hard time finding uh just a sense of reusability
+[1121.10 --> 1128.32]  among those web frameworks i know like ruby has rack and they unify on on rack in general all the web
+[1128.32 --> 1133.44]  frameworks in ruby and and node.js kind of they have quite a few frameworks that unify on connect
+[1133.44 --> 1141.12]  and so i wanted to create some sort of middleware stack um that one gophers would like um that wouldn't
+[1141.12 --> 1147.36]  be too far flung from the original go net http library and two stuff that people would actually build
+[1147.36 --> 1153.20]  value on a big um big proponent on on building value when you're writing code you should be writing
+[1153.20 --> 1160.08]  something that's valuable um and so i started martini as kind of a container for that uh martini
+[1160.08 --> 1166.88]  itself doesn't do like extremely useful things it's it's mainly just architecture and a lot of sugar
+[1166.88 --> 1173.52]  to be able to create a lot of valuable components that are reusable across multiple types of web applications
+[1173.52 --> 1181.78]  cool just pausing a second on the name and i i believe i i i read you say this on the mailing list
+[1181.78 --> 1186.94]  but i don't recall the name martini and then you know the the tagline is classy web development in go
+[1186.94 --> 1193.78]  uh it just calls to mind that that kind of epic spilled martini error page of sinatra is sinatra like
+[1193.78 --> 1199.38]  the primary inspiration for martini yeah sinatra is definitely one of them express from node.js is
+[1199.38 --> 1207.14]  is another those are both fantastic uh frameworks they they focus on simplicity and modularity and
+[1207.14 --> 1214.80]  and elegance and martini sounded really cool i mean it's a martini is obviously a mixed drink um you know
+[1214.80 --> 1221.70]  in this time there's like so many you can call any cocktail martini nowadays it's not just gin and
+[1221.70 --> 1226.62]  vermouth so like it's true when i think of a web app i think you know there's different requirements for
+[1226.62 --> 1232.62]  for any kind of web app or service and and i can't just make a set of like middleware or a set of
+[1232.62 --> 1236.54]  components that everybody's going to use they're all going to create their own and that's when i
+[1236.54 --> 1241.28]  thought of like okay it's like a cocktail it's like a martini like sure i don't like appletinis but the
+[1241.28 --> 1245.36]  person next to me really likes appletinis and i don't believe an appletini is a real martini but
+[1245.36 --> 1251.76]  that doesn't matter the guy still likes his appletini and i feel the same way about the web um you can
+[1251.76 --> 1258.30]  have whatever opinions you want but martini tries to be a good container for uh creating kind of your
+[1258.30 --> 1267.60]  own cocktail your web cocktail of sorts cool so martini provides um just the core martini we'll talk
+[1267.60 --> 1274.02]  about martini contrib which i believe is like you know provides way more stuff but the martini proper
+[1274.02 --> 1281.50]  library um basically it's a middleware stack that has a routing layer in it and some sort of dependency
+[1281.50 --> 1286.32]  injection is that is that the gist of it or is there more that i'm missing though that's pretty
+[1286.32 --> 1292.30]  much the gist of it okay so then the contrib libraries were all the other because i mean beyond
+[1292.30 --> 1301.30]  that most web apps are going to need you know session handling csr csrf protection uh you know
+[1301.30 --> 1307.10]  the whole host of things that that kind of people become used to um is that what stuff lives in contrib
+[1307.10 --> 1314.34]  yeah yeah so uh to go back to martini for a sec i was building uh i was mainly building martini for
+[1314.34 --> 1320.84]  for two different kinds of web apps uh for my application it was uh rest-based you know services
+[1320.84 --> 1325.70]  that they're just serving jason so and they're talking to other services not even talking to a
+[1325.70 --> 1332.16]  browser so there there's even no use for like cookie-based sessions or anything like that so that's
+[1332.16 --> 1339.40]  that that might be the answer to why some middlewares are in martini contrib rather than martini itself
+[1339.40 --> 1345.16]  and um i kind of just wanted to elaborate more on the dependency injection some people really shy away
+[1345.16 --> 1351.06]  when i use the word dependency injection uh because they're like oh my gosh java ioc containers oh no
+[1351.06 --> 1360.12]  yeah uh this is gonna be terrible i was thinking just that yeah okay so um i i i actually have a love
+[1360.12 --> 1364.82]  for dependency injection when it's used well and it's actually my uh it starts to become whenever
+[1364.82 --> 1368.32]  i'm picking up a new language i i tend to be like okay i'm gonna write like a dependency injection
+[1368.32 --> 1373.32]  system to see how i can make modular code with this language so if you look at my github i have like
+[1373.32 --> 1379.60]  one in c sharp one in action script one in javascript um i i've written not on github but i've written
+[1379.60 --> 1387.48]  one for objective c and uh obviously go and ruby so i i've kind of played a lot with how like how to
+[1387.48 --> 1394.06]  manage dependencies within applications and i try to find the best fit for one um in this case and a
+[1394.06 --> 1399.10]  lot of people absolutely love it because it it really extends the modularity of martini the way
+[1399.10 --> 1405.54]  the dependency injection works is you just you map something by a type and go go strongly typed it's
+[1405.54 --> 1413.66]  statically typed so you can you have types everywhere right and you you map something that's a type
+[1413.66 --> 1418.08]  let's say it's like a database you have this database connection and you map it to martini
+[1418.08 --> 1424.30]  either on a global or a request level and every one of your martini handlers which is really just a
+[1424.30 --> 1429.96]  function they can ask for that dependency in their argument list so it's very close to if you're used
+[1429.96 --> 1437.04]  to using angular um for for front end stuff their dependency injection works uh kind of the same way
+[1437.04 --> 1442.24]  on functions where you just ask for it and it gives it to you yep uh it's so brain dead it's very
+[1442.24 --> 1447.36]  intuitive it's super easy to test because now you have functions that don't actually reach outside
+[1447.36 --> 1454.28]  of itself it all just goes in through its argument list so that's kind of how the dependency injection
+[1454.28 --> 1460.62]  works and why i try to encourage people to not shy away from from that word as much um and it's hard
+[1460.62 --> 1466.14]  to try to say like it's something else because it really still is dependency injection um just not in
+[1466.14 --> 1470.68]  the way that most people would think let's pause the show for just a minute give a shout out to our
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+[1507.06 --> 1515.02]  uh to get started head to top towel.com slash developer and click join top towel that's a nice
+[1515.02 --> 1523.22]  big old green button you cannot miss it that's t-o-p-t-a-l.com slash developer i think angular
+[1523.22 --> 1529.28]  um is kind of warming up more people to the idea and the and the benefits that dependency injection
+[1529.28 --> 1537.00]  provides so i think martini fits in fits in nicely there um you know there's a whole host of of
+[1537.00 --> 1543.98]  options in the go community for web development in fact we had even a roundup post late last year
+[1543.98 --> 1550.88]  um a guest post that laid out a whole bunch of options where does martini fit into that ecosystem
+[1550.88 --> 1557.04]  um were you aware of a lot of the options when you started building it and um what do you think
+[1557.04 --> 1562.28]  its advantages are um martini has a couple advantages and it also has some disadvantages
+[1562.28 --> 1567.98]  from a pure benchmarking standpoint martini is not the fastest framework uh and it and it's not
+[1567.98 --> 1574.04]  supposed to be that wasn't my goal in writing it uh there's part of me that believes that go is fast
+[1574.04 --> 1578.74]  enough for most applications and if somebody is just looking at hello world benchmarks that they're not
+[1578.74 --> 1584.36]  they're not doing their job as far as uh analyzing a framework but that's another topic for another
+[1584.36 --> 1593.40]  day um what martini brings in is because of how the dependency injection works and how uh dynamic it is
+[1593.40 --> 1601.36]  in that nature it is backwards compatible with all go net http handlers which is a really really cool
+[1601.36 --> 1606.58]  feature because things like gorilla http and other handlers that people have published kind of that
+[1606.58 --> 1614.12]  work around um the go net http interface they can just throw those in martini and they just work
+[1614.12 --> 1619.60]  um and and that's that's kind of that wasn't necessarily an intended thing that was like i was
+[1619.60 --> 1624.42]  writing martini one day and it popped up in my mind it's like this needs to be like a bullet point on
+[1624.42 --> 1630.20]  them on the martini feature list because it's actually really cool yeah and uh so that's one of the
+[1630.20 --> 1636.20]  features and the other feature is just that kind of tags along with that is reusability um you know the
+[1636.20 --> 1643.38]  middleware stack the routing stack the fact that you uh there's this kind of you you ubiquity between
+[1643.38 --> 1647.78]  handler functions whether or not it's middleware or whether or not it's handling a route like
+[1647.78 --> 1654.26]  it doesn't matter it's all the same uh it's just kind of the elegance of that and it's it's really just
+[1654.26 --> 1659.14]  building blocks people find out like the core features of martini and they come up with some really
+[1659.14 --> 1663.16]  creative ways i love looking at the mailing list because somebody's like i'm writing code like this and i look
+[1663.16 --> 1668.72]  at him like wow that's so cool uh or somebody goes this is how i do content negotiation with
+[1668.72 --> 1674.78]  dependency injection and how i like observe you know what people want to render out as a struct and
+[1674.78 --> 1679.88]  based on you know the header i can then like you know throw it out as json or throw it out as xml or
+[1679.88 --> 1685.76]  throw it out as html or whatever and so like people solving real world web problems using those core
+[1685.76 --> 1691.38]  building blocks that i didn't necessarily build myself you know i didn't build content negotiation into
+[1691.38 --> 1696.48]  martini somebody figured that out through the the building blocks that were laid out so i find i find
+[1696.48 --> 1702.26]  that awesome it's just super awesome to see that's kind of neat how you can lay down a set of breadcrumbs
+[1702.26 --> 1707.94]  and you know kind of walk away because your needs are different but others pick it up and take it there
+[1707.94 --> 1714.44]  yeah absolutely yes i'm looking at the list of available components in the martini-contrib repository
+[1714.44 --> 1721.52]  you got auth binding gzip render except blank sessions it goes on and on and on i'm assuming
+[1721.52 --> 1724.92]  you didn't write all these and this is these have been community contributed is that fair
+[1724.92 --> 1731.08]  yep a lot of them been community contributed i've contributed to um i wrote render and sessions and
+[1731.08 --> 1737.80]  auth and uh contributed to a couple others but for the most part all the rest are um you know fully
+[1737.80 --> 1745.50]  community community contributed nice so did you expect this this amount of contributions or were
+[1745.50 --> 1751.50]  you kind of surprised at martini success and how you know people have uh contributed to the project
+[1751.50 --> 1757.18]  oh i've been absolutely blown away by the reception of the project i i wasn't i honestly was not sure at
+[1757.18 --> 1763.98]  all what the go community would think of it because because of uh the use of reflection let's say i know
+[1763.98 --> 1768.06]  that's like sounds like such a petty thing to worry about but um some communities could be really
+[1768.06 --> 1772.64]  hardcore about use of reflection and i have gotten a little bit of friction but in general people
+[1772.64 --> 1778.12]  people have come to be pretty understanding and be like yeah martini is not the fastest thing on the
+[1778.12 --> 1783.48]  block and me saying that is like we're talking about nanoseconds here it's nanoseconds slower than
+[1783.48 --> 1790.84]  you know the next framework or whatever um but it man you can write some awesome code with it and
+[1790.84 --> 1796.50]  and very clean code um one example what is okay i was just gonna ask you for an example go ahead
+[1796.50 --> 1802.22]  oh cool so one example and this could be linked in the show notes is i wrote a blog post for the
+[1802.22 --> 1808.00]  go advent calendar which is a really awesome event put on by brian kettleson over at gopher academy
+[1808.00 --> 1815.82]  and eric saint martin and um they organized this 25 days of christmas kind of thing and each and every
+[1815.82 --> 1820.18]  single day was accompanied by a blog post by a community member in the go community
+[1820.18 --> 1828.34]  and uh i wrote for day 11 i think uh about how to build a simple christmas list app in martini
+[1828.34 --> 1836.82]  using some martini contrib um packages like render which is for html templating and rendering and um
+[1836.82 --> 1842.96]  what else did i use i also uh created i showed people how to create a mongo db session and use that
+[1842.96 --> 1850.16]  and i also used bind to bind form uh part or post form uh parameters to a struct and go and to
+[1850.16 --> 1857.08]  use those to um declaratively do that and it all in all it was this full like you know kind of crud
+[1857.08 --> 1864.50]  like wish list application in like 150 lines of go it was it was surprisingly concise and extremely
+[1864.50 --> 1868.60]  readable and it's a it's a really cool example to point people to because they're like whoa like
+[1868.60 --> 1873.50]  you're you're mapping a database and it works concurrently and it does all this cool stuff
+[1873.50 --> 1880.80]  and it's it's really readable very cool so as i mentioned in the pre-show i had opportunity
+[1880.80 --> 1888.36]  um kind of right when martini first came out to use it at a local hackathon we have a an event here
+[1888.36 --> 1894.38]  i'm in i'm from omaha nebraska we have an event called uh hack omaha and our team got to got to
+[1894.38 --> 1900.32]  kind of expose some civic data via json api and we we chose martini and had a lot of fun using it
+[1900.32 --> 1906.12]  one of the pain points perhaps the only pain point i can remember at the time was uh there's no there
+[1906.12 --> 1910.80]  was no live reload which you just kind of come to you get spoiled and you're like man i want my
+[1910.80 --> 1916.42]  i want to make my change and not have to restart my my little app server is that still the case with
+[1916.42 --> 1922.30]  martini or are there options to to get live reload or was it already out there and i had i just didn't
+[1922.30 --> 1929.42]  find it yeah so there are options out there um there are two one of which is written by uh by me
+[1929.42 --> 1935.28]  um and the other one is written by i'm gonna totally butcher his name andreas france and he
+[1935.28 --> 1941.46]  is um he's an italian uh goling community member and he has a he actually has a web framework called
+[1941.46 --> 1947.02]  traffic that's actually quite good um he wrote a project called fresh that is still generic to a
+[1947.02 --> 1952.62]  lot of web applications and that um that's command line app that simply does live reload
+[1952.62 --> 1957.88]  and that's very good i've looked at the source he's he's a very good programmer and i really like his
+[1957.88 --> 1965.48]  stuff um the other application is called gin uh which is you can go find it at github.com slash
+[1965.48 --> 1970.74]  code gangsta slash gin and it's not fully documented i still have to put together readme and we're still
+[1970.74 --> 1976.00]  kind of in the growing pains phases of it because it's still fairly new but i use it every day for
+[1976.00 --> 1982.32]  martini and it does a couple of really cool things it sets up a proxy server to actually serve the
+[1982.32 --> 1986.18]  requests so we can do cool things like if there are compile errors we can show them to you in the
+[1986.18 --> 1993.62]  browser um and we can also um compile instead of instead of rerunning the app every time after a
+[1993.62 --> 2000.60]  compile we actually only rerun the app after you've compiled recompiled and when a request comes in so
+[2000.60 --> 2007.40]  it's very much like how the play framework does uh their live reload um and it also adheres to the
+[2007.40 --> 2012.00]  silence is golden principle when it comes to compiles so you can keep saving your files anytime
+[2012.00 --> 2017.46]  you want and it won't actually like output anything until you have a compile error and then it will let
+[2017.46 --> 2021.90]  you know that the compile has been successful so it's a really cool tool it doesn't bother you too much
+[2021.90 --> 2027.16]  it's so transparent um all you don't even need to pass it any configuration it works with martini out of
+[2027.16 --> 2034.36]  the box you just hit gin and it just works nice yeah looking at that repo now and uh the readme says
+[2034.36 --> 2042.50]  gin the web development server for go and that's all that is it so yeah definitely fresh it'd be nice to
+[2042.50 --> 2049.62]  get uh when we can get a little bit more up there so i can at least try this somehow pretty cool yep
+[2049.62 --> 2055.12]  you're putting a fire under my butt now so by the time this gets posted you'll see a readme it'll be
+[2055.12 --> 2064.26]  like all fleshed out i'll be like ah nice yeah that's a light readme yeah shame shame so how how
+[2064.26 --> 2072.12]  have you handled the uh or dealt with or um enjoyed the community contributions um seem like you have a
+[2072.12 --> 2077.60]  very active mailing list you have very active repositories um has it been an adjustment period
+[2077.60 --> 2084.00]  has it been pretty easy and what are your philosophies around community um it's it it was really really
+[2084.00 --> 2091.34]  busy at first um i mean it as far as like github stargazers go it really shot up in popularity and
+[2091.34 --> 2097.64]  there's a time where i was receiving a lot of issue requests a lot of pull requests and um the last thing
+[2097.64 --> 2102.76]  i wanted to do was just like be lazy about and be like i'll just merge this i'll just merge this
+[2102.76 --> 2109.60]  uh because part of martini is about writing clean code and um i really pride myself on that there's many
+[2109.60 --> 2114.90]  i got a lot of feedback from people and there's just uh an immediate surprise that like you know
+[2114.90 --> 2120.88]  martini it's probably not the case anymore but when within the first couple weeks of release it was
+[2120.88 --> 2126.30]  under a thousand lines of code and it did so much and it had the possibility to do so much um through
+[2126.30 --> 2132.28]  through extending it and so i wanted to keep the code clean i wanted to keep the code concise and i was
+[2132.28 --> 2138.96]  receiving a lot of pull requests so um it was good i mean you don't want to turn people down when
+[2138.96 --> 2142.72]  they're when they're writing code and they're passionate about a project and they want to
+[2142.72 --> 2151.74]  give the code to the project um so my philosophy behind pull requests is you don't have to accept every
+[2151.74 --> 2158.54]  pull request it's okay people will understand but you've got to communicate it i mean you have to
+[2158.54 --> 2166.16]  you have to rather than just saying no i'm not going to merge this in it's better to take that
+[2166.16 --> 2169.36]  passion that they put together into that code because everybody kind of puts their heart into
+[2169.36 --> 2174.28]  code i i believe you really you know you have to do something if you're contributing to open source
+[2174.28 --> 2179.82]  you're definitely you're definitely passionate about it in a way um i i want to steer that passion
+[2179.82 --> 2185.70]  into something that in some place where it'd be more useful so if martini is not the best fit for this
+[2185.70 --> 2190.84]  piece of code or this um api that somebody wrote i want to be like you know what this would be
+[2190.84 --> 2194.90]  awesome as a third-party library and you know i'd be happy to link it in the martini read me if it's
+[2194.90 --> 2201.54]  great um and so that's kind of been my philosophy with with martini specifically because it needs to be
+[2201.54 --> 2208.92]  such a clean lean code base um martini contrib i'm a little looser on uh accepting code especially from
+[2208.92 --> 2214.80]  just philosophical reasons like somebody puts up a package that i wouldn't necessarily use but it's
+[2214.80 --> 2220.64]  very well structured code and um i will definitely accept it in because it seems useful for other
+[2220.64 --> 2228.16]  people and um that's just kind of in the case i'm a little looser i also give martini contrib uh
+[2228.16 --> 2233.94]  package owners i do give them ownership of the package by adding them as a collaborator on the repo so
+[2233.94 --> 2240.20]  i'm not the only one directly contributing to martini contrib like once somebody puts together a
+[2240.20 --> 2246.14]  package let's say binding um i gave those two guys collaborator privileges so they can update that
+[2246.14 --> 2251.50]  package without having to put up a pull request all the time that's why you actually have that in
+[2251.50 --> 2256.40]  your readme too where you say if you're if you contribute a package yourself you can so well so
+[2256.40 --> 2261.32]  you can so you can fix it you say i will automatically add this contributor if you contribute a package
+[2261.32 --> 2267.32]  that's a good way to do it i mean it seems like that approach does make sense too as a
+[2267.32 --> 2272.26]  as a maintainer because you kind of get to set some of the ground rules and the guidelines which
+[2272.26 --> 2277.40]  you know let's let's be honest where jared i know you have kids but you know when you have kids it's
+[2277.40 --> 2281.84]  kind of like having kids in this case kind of taking this far on the left but follow me here
+[2281.84 --> 2286.52]  is that like if you're doing something like this like this is your baby right so you want this to go a
+[2286.52 --> 2293.08]  certain direction and without that discipline and and whatnot i'll just go and act like a bad teenager so
+[2293.08 --> 2298.98]  you got to kind of keep them in order and those kind of put down some um you know some fence poles
+[2298.98 --> 2303.88]  to say you know don't go beyond these areas and that would work better as a as an external library
+[2303.88 --> 2309.00]  or whatever so you're kind of setting some ground rules for how the ecosystem can play out yeah
+[2309.00 --> 2317.12]  absolutely um and uh so far it seems like the community's really been great i was telling my wife
+[2317.12 --> 2322.42]  this this morning when i was just talking about martini and i'm really excited to see that um
+[2322.42 --> 2329.44]  that community has reciprocated in a way i sometimes i look at github repositories and i look at mailing
+[2329.44 --> 2336.12]  lists and there's a little bit of hostility and i think part of that um is you know contributors can
+[2336.12 --> 2342.88]  tend to look up to um you know the owner of the repository as an overall attitude uh for for the repo
+[2342.88 --> 2349.94]  so if people are asking questions um you know it will it's kind of a reflection of the owner um
+[2349.94 --> 2354.86]  so when i see things on martini somebody asking questions seeing other community members coming
+[2354.86 --> 2362.02]  in and being extremely nice about how to lay out questions for people who are new or or or guiding
+[2362.02 --> 2368.26]  them in the right way i like i just i have a lot of hope um for for the actual project because people
+[2368.26 --> 2372.82]  are extremely nice not only in answering other people's questions but also you know putting
+[2372.82 --> 2378.48]  together an issue i i love when people and this happens so often and where they're like oh i'm
+[2378.48 --> 2382.98]  having a bug with this and they describe their bug and then the last sentence is by the way martini is
+[2382.98 --> 2390.04]  like so so awesome thank you so much for putting this together and that really as a as a maintainer
+[2390.04 --> 2393.42]  that just really brightens up my day and it's cool to see that that's a reflection of
+[2393.42 --> 2395.62]  that part of the community as a whole
+[2395.62 --> 2404.84]  in the uh i guess i guess we'll call that pre-show we were chatting before the actual show so that's the pre-show
+[2404.84 --> 2409.80]  right uh you're kind of talking about some of the things you're doing at kajabi and uh which is your day job
+[2409.80 --> 2413.36]  where you kind of like get the hack on stuff and you're doing some things and go there but you've also done
+[2413.36 --> 2418.06]  some other things and node and you kind of have this go versus node kind of wild west mentality
+[2418.06 --> 2423.32]  can you talk about that a bit yeah and it's honestly i i'm a pragmatist i use a bunch of
+[2423.32 --> 2430.00]  different tools so i'm not necessarily tied to either one um i just look at the problem and i find
+[2430.00 --> 2437.24]  what the best tool for the job is and the the sentiment around the office here at kajabi is that node is
+[2437.24 --> 2445.26]  good enough for most part for the most part uh meaning yeah you can write web apps in it and you can
+[2445.26 --> 2449.98]  grow web apps in it and that's perfectly fine it's not it's not like it's a horrible technology
+[2449.98 --> 2455.96]  um i would just say it's probably not my preference if i were to write a personal project i probably
+[2455.96 --> 2462.64]  wouldn't go to node first um unless there was something i absolutely needed from that community
+[2462.64 --> 2470.68]  um and from that ecosystem but it yeah like you mentioned it kind of feels like the wild west out
+[2470.68 --> 2476.40]  there um things kind of breaking silently and it seems to be an accepted part of the community and
+[2476.40 --> 2485.52]  that's fine i mean people focus on you know certain aspects um of a language and disregard others i know
+[2485.52 --> 2490.28]  there's blind spots in every single language community it just it bums me out sometimes when
+[2490.28 --> 2497.24]  i'm using some sort of package or or library in javascript and it's just oh i failed and i'm not
+[2497.24 --> 2503.88]  going to tell you why something just went wrong um and that seems to be accepted an accepting an
+[2503.88 --> 2510.56]  accepted debugging practice is to find out what goes wrong it's just not my my style uh technologies
+[2510.56 --> 2516.50]  like go will pretty much tell you straight out like what what's going on there's not a ton of
+[2516.50 --> 2524.78]  unknown like what what the heck does this mean kind of errors since we're talking about uh note and go a
+[2524.78 --> 2531.76]  little bit um this last show episode 116 we had aaron hammer on he's from walmart labs and he
+[2531.76 --> 2539.90]  obviously just had this great success story with node and black friday and um you know you know
+[2539.90 --> 2545.24]  hailing banners balloons everywhere confetti all that good stuff it's like you know super wild party
+[2545.24 --> 2552.86]  um because no there's some awesome stuff for them and black friday are there any stories um i guess
+[2552.86 --> 2559.00]  similar or somewhat the same that happen in the go ecosystem that you know of that you can tell
+[2559.00 --> 2566.42]  i mean there's the obvious google one where they uh replace their download server with go which was
+[2566.42 --> 2573.70]  basically you know net http's file server um that source is right there in the in the go standard
+[2573.70 --> 2579.96]  library so there's that obvious one and um there's a good blog post on it you'll you'll probably be able
+[2579.96 --> 2588.14]  to find it and stick it in the show notes um by brad fitzpatrick um covering it and the there's
+[2588.14 --> 2594.66]  there's a couple others that i know of um i might have to give you links after the show but uh in
+[2594.66 --> 2601.76]  general it's a lot of sas companies um i know iron io uses a lot of a lot of go i know um matt
+[2601.76 --> 2606.66]  amenetti at splice they they've converted a lot of their back-end tech to be using go and
+[2606.66 --> 2612.32]  very successfully and i think if you even watch sites like hacker news almost daily you find some
+[2612.32 --> 2619.70]  sort of go hate and go uh success story yeah kind of paired together that's kind of wild i mean and
+[2619.70 --> 2624.28]  i think that's what some of the listeners listen to this podcast for is kind of like get a heartbeat
+[2624.28 --> 2628.80]  on which technology is kind of maybe leading the way or going to lead the way and and maybe that's
+[2628.80 --> 2633.12]  part of our role here which is to have guests on that can kind of help at least somewhat field
+[2633.12 --> 2639.06]  those kinds of questions but it seems like node and go or they're both i mean go is a language and
+[2639.06 --> 2644.94]  node is um you know i guess not really a language it's javascript it's sort of a framework on top of
+[2644.94 --> 2651.82]  va but um you know they're going both in a good direction and you've obviously don't really have
+[2651.82 --> 2656.52]  ties to one or the other you're kind of like whichever tool best fits it but a lot of people
+[2656.52 --> 2662.94]  in the node community seems to be seem to be like um very very pro javascript you know like forget
+[2662.94 --> 2668.64]  everything else write it in javascript everything is javascript and there's a merit to that um
+[2668.64 --> 2673.16]  mainly from i would say from a training perspective some might disagree with me but
+[2673.16 --> 2680.34]  i'll tell you this the junior developer at my um you know here at kajabi like we can teach him how
+[2680.34 --> 2686.44]  to write a node app and he'll feel productive in it even though he's been only writing you know ruby and
+[2686.44 --> 2690.62]  maybe some front-end javascript but he'll feel comfortable in that and i'd say go in the same
+[2690.62 --> 2694.76]  respect is very similar to that go is not a difficult language to pick up actually one of
+[2694.76 --> 2701.26]  the criticisms of go is that it's too minimal it's too simple um but that's not necessarily a bad thing
+[2701.26 --> 2708.56]  in every case and i think it really depends on what what part of the industry you're in um my my side
+[2708.56 --> 2714.64]  of the industry we're a very small shop we're very consumer facing um we build real products for real
+[2714.64 --> 2722.44]  people and um we we deal like with that's at our forefront every day so if the technology is a
+[2722.44 --> 2728.26]  means to an end for us we're not doing a ton of bit twiddling we're not doing extremely high scalability
+[2728.26 --> 2735.62]  crazy um computing so for us to write our systems in haskell would be like very counterproductive
+[2735.62 --> 2741.46]  um no doubt that like there's a there's an extreme use case for haskell and there's a very good use case
+[2741.46 --> 2746.20]  for writing a correct program but i'm not going to sit down and teach a junior developer here at
+[2746.20 --> 2753.04]  kajabi haskell um it's just not going to be productive for our use case let's pause the show
+[2753.04 --> 2758.32]  for just a second and give a shout out to our sponsor new relic new relic is a software analytics
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+[2795.80 --> 2802.02]  once you shoot the production if you remember those days we'd all spend a ton of time doing internal bug
+[2802.02 --> 2806.98]  hunts and eventually just cross our fingers and hope for the best we'd ship our code and we'd sit around
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+[2852.00 --> 2860.14]  so speaking of teaching we would be remiss not to bring up gopher casts yes which appears to be a
+[2860.14 --> 2869.58]  fledgling project but very cool this is gopher casts.io and you could imagine it's screencasts for
+[2869.58 --> 2875.70]  learning and teaching go can you talk about it yeah so i i started this up with my uh with my longtime
+[2875.70 --> 2882.84]  buddy nate beck and it's it's basically you know what it says it is i when i released martini i also
+[2882.84 --> 2889.80]  had a accompanying demo video to go along with the source code and that demo video was um way better
+[2889.80 --> 2895.10]  received than i thought it would be and a lot of people watched it and a lot of people got interested
+[2895.10 --> 2900.50]  in the project because of it and still to this day i i look at github recently released uh statistics for
+[2900.50 --> 2904.42]  a repository so i take a look at those i'm like wow there's so many people that are coming from the
+[2904.42 --> 2910.26]  video like there's still people watching the video which is it blows my mind and feedback from that
+[2910.26 --> 2918.24]  video um was very positive people loved the pacing and uh it was suggested a lot to me and asked a lot
+[2918.24 --> 2923.68]  of me if i would start creating screencasts just to teach about go in general and about the technologies
+[2923.68 --> 2930.40]  and the projects that are out there um so that's why we started uh that's why we started gopher casts and
+[2930.40 --> 2938.38]  i have a background in audio nate has a background in audio and video and uh so we have very very
+[2938.38 --> 2944.46]  particular needs when it comes to producing screencasts like this so if you go to gophercasts.io
+[2944.46 --> 2950.18]  you'll see very high production quality um they're very uh very well-paced videos in my opinion
+[2950.18 --> 2957.70]  they um they're very digestible they're all three to five minutes long um and like it was mentioned
+[2957.70 --> 2963.86]  it's they're very very the site is very young so you'll probably only see a few videos up there
+[2963.86 --> 2970.52]  but we plan on releasing uh at least weekly episodes and i guess since we're talking about uh
+[2970.52 --> 2978.80]  the site itself is it written in martini no the site is not written in martini and let me tell you
+[2978.80 --> 2985.08]  why uh at first i wanted to write it in go and my my buddy nate he is not a go programmer he's picking
+[2985.08 --> 2990.84]  up go and he's learning go and he's um you know he's asking me all these questions and we're we're
+[2990.84 --> 2997.62]  kind of you know trudging through it together um we actually ended up writing the service in rails
+[2997.62 --> 3003.84]  and there's a couple reasons why one of them uh one of the reasons why was kind of prompted by
+[3003.84 --> 3010.00]  joel hooks who wrote a blog post on how he converted egghead io which is an angular js
+[3010.00 --> 3017.36]  screencast uh put on by john lindquist and joel hooks now um he mentioned why he wrote his site
+[3017.36 --> 3021.66]  in rails and why he didn't use something like node.js and angular or something like that
+[3021.66 --> 3028.22]  and you know it goes goes back to a lot of my philosophy with building things is you use the
+[3028.22 --> 3034.60]  best tool for the job um i'm going to be transparent and say like go for cast will not always be you know
+[3034.60 --> 3042.14]  all free everything free we do plan on feeling out the community seeing you know what it brings
+[3042.14 --> 3047.10]  what people like what people don't like and we want to offer you know something that will keep us going
+[3047.10 --> 3052.48]  to keep us producing super high quality screencasts and to see what people are willing to pay for it
+[3052.48 --> 3057.02]  because i think people are willing to pay for quality content so building things like a like a
+[3057.02 --> 3064.88]  publishing pipeline for video and you know tying in with like subscription services like stripe and
+[3064.88 --> 3071.42]  dealing with payments we already know how to do that in in rails and for us to do it and go is possible
+[3071.42 --> 3079.18]  but it's not the most productive at the time martini was built you know to make tiny services and and
+[3079.18 --> 3086.20]  smaller websites and in a more distributed computing fashion and so um that was the reason that we
+[3086.20 --> 3091.02]  mainly chose to write it in rails and it's it's been fine we've had a couple people that are like oh it's
+[3091.02 --> 3096.80]  written in rails and not go but overall i mean it's useful for people well i think what you said earlier
+[3096.80 --> 3103.40]  with um uh with with martini when you first started it out like your point wasn't to make a rails web
+[3103.40 --> 3108.32]  framework it was meant to be like a web services web framework you know to to kind of interact between
+[3108.32 --> 3113.98]  different services so in that case you know you're totally you're on point yeah absolutely it's using the
+[3113.98 --> 3118.82]  best tool for the job we don't have to we don't have to just like one technology i like a lot of
+[3118.82 --> 3123.66]  technologies you know there's a lot of things that bother me about rails but i still use it every day
+[3123.66 --> 3129.68]  and you know what it's really productive yeah i know jared and i have been talking about some
+[3129.68 --> 3134.98]  different stuff you want to do with the change log and uh he he always i'm gonna call you on this
+[3134.98 --> 3141.78]  jared he's like i'll do if you let me write it and go and so i don't know if that's the the inner
+[3141.78 --> 3146.32]  desire of jared who just wants to write it and go or what or if he's just uh if he thinks that's
+[3146.32 --> 3151.06]  the best tool for the job but we'll see yeah i'm the same way i want to just write stuff and go and
+[3151.06 --> 3155.82]  nate had to calm me down and be like let's pull this back and kind of in retrospect for the site i'm
+[3155.82 --> 3160.90]  glad we have it in rails will it maybe be in go eventually probably he'll probably be in go
+[3160.90 --> 3166.84]  eventually but right now we are able to ship and show people our screencasts and most importantly
+[3166.84 --> 3171.80]  we're able to show people content and that's really what it's about yeah just to defend myself
+[3171.80 --> 3178.84]  slightly here sorry about throwing you the bus there sorry about that the reason why i want to
+[3178.84 --> 3184.96]  do that is not some sort of idealism it's because i was saying that let's learn something as we build
+[3184.96 --> 3190.24]  this you know it's kind of a side thing and let's let's learn go and these different things as we build
+[3190.24 --> 3193.72]  it and then adam's saying this thing's going to be a production you know like this is going to be our
+[3193.72 --> 3200.66]  next version we can't we can't put you know newbie code out there so yeah ultimately he's going to
+[3200.66 --> 3205.74]  win that that argument but that was some of my thinking behind doing and go i was mostly just
+[3205.74 --> 3210.38]  looking for new projects to start and go and i was like oh sure let's do it and go well hey some
+[3210.38 --> 3215.32]  things are best learned in production right it's true i don't always test my code but when i do
+[3215.32 --> 3222.48]  i test it in production that's cool um what else do you want to talk about jared i know we talked
+[3222.48 --> 3226.74]  about gopher cast was one i'm super excited about that by the way i'm really glad that you listened
+[3226.74 --> 3231.18]  to the community and and decided to do that because i do think that martini video was well done
+[3231.18 --> 3240.58]  and and and to your credit i definitely think you have a nice smooth pace for those videos and keeping
+[3240.58 --> 3246.42]  them under five minutes um is definitely perfect i mean sure seven minutes eight minutes that's okay but
+[3246.42 --> 3253.60]  five minutes is like a quick idea enough to get them running whomever's listening and it's just like
+[3253.60 --> 3259.56]  in and out like let me take a break from whatever i'm doing and and just maybe listen to something
+[3259.56 --> 3266.46]  brand new you know go from maybe design to to listen to a gopher cast and kind of get some some new
+[3266.46 --> 3271.48]  knowledge yeah ideally what you want to do is you want to you want to trigger that spark in somebody's
+[3271.48 --> 3277.14]  mind to start creating instead of just copying and pasting the source or or figuring out some
+[3277.14 --> 3281.32]  sort of quick fix they're watching the video so they can get inspired and that's kind of what it
+[3281.32 --> 3289.08]  comes down to uh well let's loop back around yeah i got one more question about martini and then maybe
+[3289.08 --> 3295.28]  adam can do his his closing questions but um you kind of got started and go because you like
+[3295.28 --> 3303.18]  the deployment of these distributed command line applications um how do you deploy a martini
+[3303.18 --> 3309.38]  application a web app to the to production um it's in a similar fashion and there's a couple different
+[3309.38 --> 3315.86]  ways you can deploy it i know heroku if if anybody's used to working with heroku um it's a very easy
+[3315.86 --> 3322.12]  deploy process for martini um it's the same as any other go web app um what one really cool thing about
+[3322.12 --> 3329.20]  martini is um and this was a point for contention among a couple people but martini uses uh to
+[3329.20 --> 3333.78]  configure the port you have to configure the port environment variable you actually don't do it inside
+[3333.78 --> 3340.64]  the app and the reason for that is for deployment purposes in a lot of environments um especially
+[3340.64 --> 3347.00]  around kind of shared hosting or or or neighbor hosting you have the port set you know in the
+[3347.00 --> 3353.56]  environment automatically by the service provider so deploying a martini app um using the go build
+[3353.56 --> 3358.76]  pack and heroku is brain dead simple you don't do anything different you just push up your code with
+[3358.76 --> 3366.60]  the go but build pack uh via git and it just works um how about non-heroku style so so non-heroku style
+[3366.60 --> 3371.66]  would be uh simply compiling your app for the platform that you're in or pushing your code to the
+[3371.66 --> 3377.32]  the box that um the box that is going to be hosted on and compiling it there and just making sure that
+[3377.32 --> 3383.52]  any sort of asset folders you have um are are existing you know right next to where the binary
+[3383.52 --> 3390.52]  is run at or uh there there's another project called go bin data which actually can compile your assets
+[3390.52 --> 3396.90]  in as go source code so it's all one fat binary and there's a couple projects that actually do that
+[3396.90 --> 3400.90]  yeah yeah one of which is and i don't know if you guys use this tool but i'm going to totally
+[3400.90 --> 3406.50]  uh pimp it out because it's it's an awesome tool is ngrok is a tunneling service and tool
+[3406.50 --> 3411.60]  um built in go i think i think we covered that we linked to that on the changelog a while back
+[3411.60 --> 3416.44]  oh okay i've seen it but i haven't used it personally well it's a fantastic tool and it has
+[3416.44 --> 3421.54]  its own web interface that uses like bootstrap and pulls in all this javascript and stuff but the the
+[3421.54 --> 3426.54]  rad thing is all that stuff is hosted you know locally but it's all in one single binary it's still
+[3426.54 --> 3432.66]  one binary for all the assets um so that's another cool way depending on what kind of asset you're
+[3432.66 --> 3437.24]  serving and if you want to just pull them off of you know memory or pull it all into memory when you
+[3437.24 --> 3441.88]  run the program like it depends on what you're really doing but there's kind of something really
+[3441.88 --> 3447.48]  uh there's there's a lot of excitement around thinking oh i could just drag and drop this one
+[3447.48 --> 3454.00]  file onto a computer and it's deployed yeah for sure and then would you suggest behind behind a proxy
+[3454.00 --> 3460.02]  like nginx or hypoxy or would you just throw it on port 80 and let the thing roll you could you
+[3460.02 --> 3463.38]  could certainly throw it on port 80 and let it roll and there's some services that i've deployed
+[3463.38 --> 3470.46]  that have that um but nginx is such a huge boon to any sort of um to really any sort of web app that
+[3470.46 --> 3476.00]  um for things like caching and even static file serving i would recommend probably in production using
+[3476.00 --> 3483.72]  nginx over martini's you know static handler just because of efficiency um the knowledge that's out
+[3483.72 --> 3491.14]  there the documentation that's out there yeah um and speed so so future of martini uh big plans
+[3491.14 --> 3499.00]  little plans what are you thinking um probably little plans uh again i want to keep martini
+[3499.00 --> 3505.70]  consistent and small there's not a whole lot left to add to it but there's certainly a lot of value
+[3505.70 --> 3510.34]  that can be built up over in packages and handlers and middlewares especially in the martini
+[3510.34 --> 3515.16]  contrib repository there will be a point where martini contrib will hit critical mass but i'm
+[3515.16 --> 3520.98]  hoping by that time martini will be popular enough to where it's valuable for somebody to publish a
+[3520.98 --> 3525.86]  separate package on github that people will then recognize oh it's for martini and they can actually
+[3525.86 --> 3530.78]  pull it in and use it it hasn't reached that point yet because the go community is still fairly small
+[3530.78 --> 3536.30]  and so martini contrib kind of acts as that curation a one place where everybody can go to see like
+[3536.30 --> 3543.88]  what are the latest cool packages to use um but in general uh you know i'm excited to see what 2014
+[3543.88 --> 3551.44]  brings in in terms of go and their their versioning story because that has come up a couple times with
+[3551.44 --> 3560.18]  martini i have some solutions of my own that i'm kind of working on in secret um but um i'm hoping
+[3560.18 --> 3568.56]  i'm hoping i can bring martini to a version 1.0 where i uh where obviously the api won't have any
+[3568.56 --> 3575.38]  um breaking changes and i try my best not to break any most changes but there are there is one change
+[3575.38 --> 3583.06]  in particular which will break a you know one little thing that nobody really uses um and once i bring it
+[3583.06 --> 3588.18]  to 1.0 it's it's not going to break from there so i'll probably apply uh the semantic versioning principle
+[3588.18 --> 3596.42]  to that and be able to um to develop the code from there cool chair with your with your uh question
+[3596.42 --> 3602.94]  i guess on the future of of martini do you think you meant from a contrasting difference between say
+[3602.94 --> 3608.50]  a framework like rails is that what you meant by that because i was kind of curious if
+[3608.50 --> 3614.28]  you know martini's expectation is to be something like rails ever in the future to be that kind of
+[3614.28 --> 3620.58]  web development framework i was mostly just trying to get a just a general idea of where he was going
+[3620.58 --> 3625.98]  to take it next but i think probably and jeremy correct me if i'm wrong i think the answer to that
+[3625.98 --> 3634.08]  is probably not gonna is no yes okay i'm sorry i mean yes no is the answer i think i said that sentence
+[3634.08 --> 3641.04]  oddly but yeah that's that's okay um yeah i mean i think there's there is i mean there's uh revel
+[3641.04 --> 3648.78]  um which is you know kind of in the spirit of of a framework like rails where it it it its goal is
+[3648.78 --> 3654.96]  to be very productive and it does a lot of things for you and that's not um the space that martini is
+[3654.96 --> 3663.40]  trying to um occupy at all which is good because part you know the way i structured martini i was kind
+[3663.40 --> 3667.78]  of being lazy about it i was like i don't want to like spend a million hours like maintaining this
+[3667.78 --> 3673.92]  and i don't want to have like a million like to do's um on this project and so and that's been
+[3673.92 --> 3678.72]  that's been somewhat successful i haven't had to contribute a whole lot of code to martini you know
+[3678.72 --> 3683.20]  relatively a whole lot of code so what's the what's the end users say then whenever they think okay
+[3683.20 --> 3687.76]  revel or martini how do they make their choice what are some of the things they should ask themselves
+[3687.76 --> 3695.36]  um really what kind of app are you building and um you know what what you want your what you want
+[3695.36 --> 3701.86]  your maintenance to to look like because uh building something off of a minimal framework
+[3701.86 --> 3707.52]  and then a full featured framework have uh they both have uh different maintenance stories i'm not
+[3707.52 --> 3711.54]  saying one is worse than the other in particular i'm just saying they there's different ways to
+[3711.54 --> 3717.42]  maintain it you know rails like something like rails i feel like we build layer on top of layer on top of
+[3717.42 --> 3722.26]  layer on top of layer and with a minimal code base um maintenance looks a little different it's a
+[3722.26 --> 3730.86]  little easier to rip stuff out and to rethink the problem if um if requirements change um and you know
+[3730.86 --> 3736.74]  you you kind of mentioned it earlier and you hit the nail on the head earlier martini was built out to
+[3736.74 --> 3742.44]  solve some of the problems in distributed web applications where you have multiple services that
+[3742.44 --> 3747.32]  um you know do one thing really really well and you have those intercommunicate between each
+[3747.32 --> 3754.06]  other and the industry is trending trending to that as a whole and so that's that's the space in the
+[3754.06 --> 3758.64]  little niche that i think martini will really fill is building these small applications that
+[3758.64 --> 3765.84]  you know the code can be really small and concise and reusable across you know different applications
+[3765.84 --> 3773.42]  gotcha cool jared anything else for uh for your your uh your questions
+[3773.42 --> 3782.02]  inquiring minds no uh yeah you know if andrew here which he's uh which he's not at this at this
+[3782.02 --> 3789.12]  moment uh i don't think so andrew you here no he's not here um he would ask uh he would say we have
+[3789.12 --> 3794.30]  three questions we typically ask at the end of the show uh and this is one of my favorite questions
+[3794.30 --> 3798.58]  we get to ask which is who is your programming hero it could have been somebody that was just
+[3798.58 --> 3802.40]  influential in your life it could have been you know a mentor it could have been a teacher it could have
+[3802.40 --> 3809.04]  been you know it could have been your dad whomever but who is the programming hero for you oh man that's
+[3809.04 --> 3819.60]  going to be a hard one um uh i would have to say uh at the moment and this is going to sound super
+[3819.60 --> 3828.50]  cheesy because i'm on a podcast talking about go but uh a lot of those unix guys like like rob pike
+[3828.50 --> 3837.52]  and rob kernigan like they they're pretty awesome i i i'm a self-admitted you know unix lover i love
+[3837.52 --> 3842.56]  just the way the philosophies around it and how it's structured and there's obviously flaws around it
+[3842.56 --> 3849.50]  but um in general it's very in line with how i like to build applications so um a lot of minimalism
+[3849.50 --> 3857.02]  a lot of uh you know build build apps that do one thing really well um you know i fall in line with
+[3857.02 --> 3862.56]  that philosophy so those old school guys that have uh done a lot to influence you know modern computing
+[3862.56 --> 3871.42]  as a whole um i love it so if you were if you were not coding go or i guess goes on a language i guess
+[3871.42 --> 3876.16]  sorry goes language i was taking martini my bad if you weren't coding and go what would you be coding
+[3876.16 --> 3880.72]  and i guess you kind of do that by day you don't always just code and go so yeah what else do you
+[3880.72 --> 3891.08]  hack in uh so i mean uh ruby um kind of whatever language is possible i do some c and c plus plus
+[3891.08 --> 3897.56]  some ruby some um every once in a while i'll dive in and do some objective c with iphone apps javascript
+[3897.56 --> 3905.96]  um you know more go stuff touch some c sharp on on multiple projects um so i'm kind of
+[3905.96 --> 3911.28]  willing to dive in and uh i kind of have a pretty open mind i think if a community is somewhat
+[3911.28 --> 3917.92]  successful that there's got to be some uh there's got to be some hope in and and some some little
+[3917.92 --> 3923.42]  golden nuggets in in how they operate um so i think every every community has at least something
+[3923.42 --> 3930.62]  to say as far as how software should be developed and so i'm i'm adventurous in that way where i like to
+[3930.62 --> 3939.06]  uh find out what those answers are let's uh try a different angle at that what's um what's on your
+[3939.06 --> 3943.68]  radar what's what's some fun open source projects that we haven't quite talked about on the show
+[3943.68 --> 3947.86]  maybe something you haven't even uh written yourself but what's out there that's interesting
+[3947.86 --> 3952.84]  that you want to hack on whenever you have a free weekend or something you have you know you got
+[3952.84 --> 3958.64]  four days you got nothing to do what would you hack on um probably i would take a deep look into
+[3958.64 --> 3964.24]  uh what the ecosystem looks like for functional languages right now um and and start to find
+[3964.24 --> 3971.74]  some real use cases for me um obviously like as a programmer we're hearing that we're running into
+[3971.74 --> 3977.54]  this paradigm shift where we need to do more parallel computing and and you know having side effects is
+[3977.54 --> 3983.10]  just a hindrance to that and so functional languages are going to become more popular um but i don't think
+[3983.10 --> 3989.84]  it's hit that um mass yet to where imperative programmers or people like me who have you know
+[3989.84 --> 3998.72]  grown up as a developer that's you know programming imperative the whole time um we we haven't found
+[3998.72 --> 4006.16]  the like practical use cases for for functional languages everything i i try to see with like a
+[4006.16 --> 4010.20]  haskell implementation just seems so academic and i was like okay well so like how can i write something
+[4010.20 --> 4016.72]  for kajabi like this so i i i'll probably i probably have that on my radar if i yeah if i were to go to
+[4016.72 --> 4023.02]  a cabin for four days i'd probably look at haskell and be like i need to i need to find a way to make
+[4023.02 --> 4028.04]  this useful for me um what do you think what do you think would write maybe if you because i mean you
+[4028.04 --> 4032.74]  would have no internet right i would have no internet so i'd probably have to write some command line
+[4032.74 --> 4039.54]  apps um and do some crazy craziness but i don't know if i'd exactly be able to tell you what i'd write
+[4039.54 --> 4044.80]  cool well why don't you take that trip someday and get back to us that's right i might suggest if
+[4044.80 --> 4051.22]  you're in a cabin without any internet and you're like on vacation maybe have a beer sit out enjoy the
+[4051.22 --> 4057.68]  outside let's put come on guys we can put the computer down for a few days oh yeah totally and
+[4057.68 --> 4062.56]  then we get back because i'm getting lots of whiskey and a cigar i mean that sounds yeah you're not way
+[4062.56 --> 4067.52]  better than programming haskell you're not gonna learn let's get real here without the internet come on
+[4067.52 --> 4072.70]  yeah that's what i was gonna say um that's cool man yeah jeremy it's been fun having you on the
+[4072.70 --> 4078.68]  show i know that uh you kind of get to bounce around quite a bit in your uh in your working
+[4078.68 --> 4083.30]  with the web and and programming and obviously you've done some pretty cool stuff to share on
+[4083.30 --> 4088.68]  github and we appreciate you know your perspective with martini and how you want to keep it clean and
+[4088.68 --> 4093.02]  how you're kind of guiding that ecosystem and just coming on the show and and sharing that and
+[4093.02 --> 4097.56]  maybe even giving a little twist of the arm via twitter to to get onto the show but you were
+[4097.56 --> 4103.74]  definitely on our list sir that's for sure oh awesome well i'm so glad to be on the on the podcast
+[4103.74 --> 4109.24]  again uh newer fan but but a big fan and i'm just it's it's awesome talking to you guys i love talking
+[4109.24 --> 4113.90]  shop it's been good having you back on the show too jared i know i haven't had you back on with me
+[4113.90 --> 4119.94]  since uh since katrina's show really right so it's been a bit yeah it's been a while good to be back
+[4119.94 --> 4124.30]  i'll have to get you back on the show more often man right on we'll have to make that our mission
+[4124.30 --> 4131.34]  but um i also want to give a another shout out to our sponsors digital ocean whom we love new relic
+[4131.34 --> 4137.42]  whom we love and top tile whom we love which uh those are our sponsors for this show but our friends
+[4137.42 --> 4143.76]  at digital ocean want to pay you so if you write open source like we've talked about today if you got
+[4143.76 --> 4148.38]  a project out there they want to pay you to write a tutorial about your project for the digital ocean
+[4148.38 --> 4153.18]  community best of all they'll give you 50 bucks and then promote it for you on their twitter account
+[4153.18 --> 4158.30]  so if you've written martini maybe you can write a uh tutorial and they'll promote it to their 21 000
+[4158.30 --> 4162.66]  followers uh for those of you listening i'll put this in the show notes but the url for that is
+[4162.66 --> 4171.00]  digitalocean.com slash write hyphen four hyphen digital ocean the word four is the word f-o-r-4 not the
+[4171.00 --> 4175.88]  number four so just so you get that clear and you can also get some free stickers from digital ocean by
+[4175.88 --> 4182.16]  filling out the form at stickers.digitalocean.com and if you want to uh if you want to freelance
+[4182.16 --> 4187.90]  with companies like airbnb rco or audio head to top.com slash developer and click join the best
+[4187.90 --> 4195.58]  to see if you have what it takes to join top tiles elite elite capital e network of engineers again
+[4195.58 --> 4200.80]  that url is top tile.com slash developer and that's it for this week jeremy thanks again for coming on
+[4200.80 --> 4205.50]  the show it's uh definitely great having you on the show and the listeners we thank you for listening
+[4205.50 --> 4210.02]  and for your support and if you haven't yet uh we do have an email we ship out every saturday
+[4210.02 --> 4214.86]  it's called the changelog weekly um and we we share everything everything that hits articles for
+[4214.86 --> 4220.10]  i know martini made an appearance at one point and i think even the blog post that jerry was
+[4220.10 --> 4225.32]  alluding to earlier on jeremy we had that in weekly as well but you can subscribe at
+[4225.32 --> 4232.64]  thechangehold.com slash weekly we'll be back next week and until then let's say goodbye see ya see ya
+[4232.64 --> 4234.62]  you
+[4255.32 --> 4264.62]  you
+[4264.62 --> 4266.62]  you
+[4266.62 --> 4268.62]  you
+[4268.62 --> 4272.62]  you
+[4272.62 --> 4274.62]  you
+[4274.62 --> 4276.62]  you

Google's Dart Programming Language_transcript.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,551 @@
+[0.00 --> 14.90]  welcome back everyone this is the changelog where a member supported blog podcast and weekly email
+[14.90 --> 20.74]  covering what's fresh and what's new in open source check out the blog at the changelog.com
+[20.74 --> 27.76]  our past shows at five by five dot tv slash changelog and you're listening to episode 121
+[27.76 --> 34.18]  we're joined today by lars bach and seth ladd just two of the awesome team members behind dart
+[34.18 --> 41.96]  a new language and platform started by google for scalable web app engineering today's show is
+[41.96 --> 48.18]  sponsored by our partner digital ocean fresh books and new relic we'll tell you a bit more about
+[48.18 --> 54.06]  fresh books and new relic later in the show but digital ocean we owe our uptime to digital ocean
+[54.06 --> 58.46]  we're hosted on digital ocean we are partnered with digital ocean we think that you should
+[58.46 --> 65.04]  use digital ocean i mean that's that's that should be the spot right there right but it goes on uh
+[65.04 --> 71.68]  it's super easy to use digital ocean literally in 55 seconds you got a server full root access ssh keys
+[71.68 --> 77.60]  on the machine your choice of os at your fingertips it just doesn't get any easier than that it's
+[77.60 --> 83.68]  affordable pricing plans start at five bucks a month you get half a gram 20 gigs of ssd drive space
+[83.68 --> 91.64]  one cpu one terabyte transfer and it's blazing fast ssds and it's super easy to use use the promo
+[91.64 --> 98.92]  code changelog may that's right changelog may to get a ten dollar credit when you sign up head to
+[98.92 --> 103.04]  digital ocean.com to get started and now on to the show
+[103.04 --> 113.02]  welcome back everybody we are joined today by lars bach and seth ladd lars is the co-founder a co-founder
+[113.02 --> 119.88]  of dart and v8 and seth is a developer advocate for dart we're here today to talk about dart and
+[119.88 --> 125.90]  what it is and all those good things so lars why don't you give us an introduction to who you are and
+[125.90 --> 132.70]  where you come from i don't want to spend too much time but the sad story is i've been doing virtual
+[132.70 --> 139.84]  machines for object oriented languages since 88 so there's been a few and you probably can remember
+[139.84 --> 148.20]  some of them like hotspot i was a tech leader on hotspot i've done strong talk what else v8 is one
+[148.20 --> 157.44]  and so lots of different virtual machines and and my game is making the the languages run fast and
+[157.44 --> 163.96]  lately last three years i've been focusing on the new programming language start and it's basically sort
+[163.96 --> 171.12]  of uh written is from the experience of implementing the ioscript so we can talk about the later yeah
+[171.12 --> 175.14]  for sure so i i forgot to mention when i introduced you that you both are at google so i just wanted to
+[175.14 --> 181.28]  make sure we make that clear that is true okay all right and seth why don't you give us an introduction
+[181.28 --> 187.20]  about who you are and where you come from sure so i'm a developer advocate with the google developer
+[187.20 --> 193.36]  team and for the past couple years i've been focused on dart and helping external and internal
+[193.36 --> 200.36]  developers get online with our tools our language our libraries and help get the community excited
+[200.36 --> 207.62]  and participating in this new project awesome so can can one of you give me a introduction to what
+[207.62 --> 211.46]  dart is i think that you know a lot a lot of people have heard about it because it's not exactly
+[211.46 --> 216.28]  you know brand new um but but but maybe there are some people out there that aren't really familiar
+[216.28 --> 221.42]  with it and would like to know what it is oh i can take a stab at that we started the dart project
+[221.42 --> 227.04]  three years ago and it's a platform so and it includes a new programming language for the web
+[227.04 --> 234.06]  but it also has a libraries a consistent set of libraries and programming tools on top of that
+[234.06 --> 240.94]  if you talk about the the language it's a a clean simple class-based object oriented languages
+[240.94 --> 247.94]  language and it's more structured than javascript and we want really want to capture people that are
+[247.94 --> 253.76]  interesting uh having structure in the programming language so they can easily do refactoring and
+[253.76 --> 262.86]  build last a lot web applications awesome so one of the things about dart i think that um i've i've
+[262.86 --> 267.38]  heard just kind of talking to people and and and actually like doing some of my own research is
+[267.38 --> 273.12]  right now it seems like and this is kind of the main one of the main questions i want to kind of
+[273.12 --> 278.30]  get to but right now it seems like one of the big goals of dart is to be able to compile it down to
+[278.30 --> 284.70]  javascript but that doesn't feel like the end goal for dart so would you say that javascript or sorry
+[284.70 --> 290.30]  that dart is is is going to be an evolution in in uh you know writing program programming for the web or
+[290.30 --> 294.26]  is it going to be an option you know a la coffee script or something like that to compile down to
+[294.26 --> 301.08]  javascript well first of all i have to say for us uh being compatible with the web is really important so
+[301.08 --> 307.80]  one of our most important components is the dart to js compiler it translates the dart source code
+[307.80 --> 314.00]  into javascript and ensures that you get the same semantic semantics as if you ran on top of the
+[314.00 --> 319.72]  virtual machine of course we have a virtual machine as well and we have a special build of chromium
+[319.72 --> 328.64]  we call dartium and it has that dart virtual machine built in and so we can run raw dart in that
+[328.64 --> 336.16]  browser but yeah the compatibility with the web is super important for us so so do you think that's
+[336.16 --> 341.86]  something if i guess the question is if you had to kind of pick like would compatibility with javascript
+[341.86 --> 346.08]  be what you would rather would you rather every browser have the dart vm installed
+[346.08 --> 353.72]  well first of all it's always great if people take all our code and include in the browser but
+[353.72 --> 358.68]  i think the the point is what we're trying to do is we are we're trying to make sure that
+[358.68 --> 367.16]  that if you only have a javascript engine in your browser you'll still run a dart fine but there's
+[367.16 --> 373.92]  certainly advantages or we're running the dart vm inside the browser two of them is that it runs faster
+[373.92 --> 380.10]  and secondly you have a fantastic startup experience because the application startup super fast
+[380.10 --> 386.16]  i do want to draw a distinction though between dart and some of the other languages like coffee script so
+[386.16 --> 392.34]  coffee script is designed to provide a new syntax on top of javascript but it still retains
+[392.34 --> 398.42]  javascript semantics whereas dart is its own language so yes compiling a javascript is really
+[398.42 --> 403.18]  important for the project in the web but we're as large was saying we're we're able to bring over the
+[403.18 --> 408.42]  semantics from the dart language and libraries back down to javascript so it's not just syntactic like
+[408.42 --> 414.60]  code of paint so yeah that's something that you know you'll see with like typescript and asm
+[414.60 --> 421.24]  that that are more like you know just you know subsets or supersets of javascript but this is a new
+[421.24 --> 426.32]  language but i i have a i mean maybe just in layman's like if you could explain to me the difference
+[426.32 --> 434.50]  because uh if it compiles down to javascript then it seems like it while you know in the future i could
+[434.50 --> 440.08]  envision a world where using dartium or any other browser with the dart vm uh has major advantages
+[440.08 --> 444.00]  because you can write dart and run dart in the browser but as long as it's being used to compile
+[444.00 --> 449.10]  down to javascript it i don't really necessarily see the the huge increases that you can get with the
+[449.10 --> 456.58]  dart vm so well well um let me just uh stop you a little bit it's uh you get fast execution i guess
+[456.58 --> 463.56]  that's a good thing but think about the development process when you change the line of code you can
+[463.56 --> 468.56]  be up running right away instead of first translating to to javascript and run in a
+[468.56 --> 476.74]  java engine if you have the dart vm inside the browser right you can do a debugging at the source level
+[476.74 --> 483.38]  and you can do very interesting things that are based on the language that's hard to do when you
+[483.38 --> 489.54]  first translate to javascript and want to provide the same kind of programming experience yeah so so i
+[489.54 --> 494.06]  guess that's what i'm saying is that it seems like the major the major benefits of dart other than just
+[494.06 --> 498.38]  you know the the language itself being a very clean language is like when you actually use it in its
+[498.38 --> 503.50]  in the dart vm itself rather than compiling it to javascript i think one of the huge benefits of dart
+[503.50 --> 508.58]  is the productivity which is sort of what lars is alluding to here and that as a developer and i'm
+[508.58 --> 515.14]  being asked to deliver engaging wonderful experiences to my users on mobile devices that need to run 60
+[515.14 --> 521.04]  frames a second take advantage of all the html5 features and really take advantage of these new
+[521.04 --> 527.50]  mobile devices i'm being asked to develop and deliver much more complex applications and when i have a
+[527.50 --> 533.10]  much more complex world i need languages libraries and tools to help me compensate for that and do things
+[533.10 --> 539.38]  like static analysis warnings refactoring all the great stuff that we've had for other platforms for
+[539.38 --> 544.70]  years and years and years and to get i'm i'm basically being asked to do this on the web now today just
+[544.70 --> 548.98]  because my users are asking for this and so the huge advantage of dart is i get that productive
+[548.98 --> 553.56]  development experience yet still get the really fast iteration times of the web
+[553.56 --> 559.62]  so so one thing i would like to mention about the language we haven't talked about what's in the
+[559.62 --> 567.82]  language but one thing i find that's really great is the optional typing an optional static typing
+[567.82 --> 575.12]  gives you that you can start programming without any types so when you do experimentation you can get up
+[575.12 --> 581.70]  run very fast but as you write a library and you want to harden it you put in the types maybe on the
+[581.70 --> 587.44]  interface to the library and you can make sure that if people want to use the library they can
+[587.44 --> 594.20]  validate that you pass in the right kinds of objects to that interface and i think that that allows the
+[594.20 --> 599.94]  programmer to to trust the library more instead of that if you don't have any types and you call a
+[599.94 --> 604.12]  library and you get an error you basically have to debug a third-party code which is not easy
+[604.12 --> 610.06]  yeah i think there are some really cool things about dart uh that the language itself which will
+[610.06 --> 616.78]  we'll get into in in a in a little bit but uh the one thing that i think so okay so we we've talked a
+[616.78 --> 623.54]  little bit about you know what's the the the major benefit of dart uh in its current form but what
+[623.54 --> 629.14]  would you say where do you see dart in five years or in 10 years or in 15 years like where where do you
+[629.14 --> 636.70]  want to see this project headed clearly we want to make sure that a lot of programmers will use it
+[636.70 --> 646.06]  right now it's clear that web applications are becoming larger and larger and to control these big
+[646.06 --> 652.82]  piles of source code i believe strongly that you need a better structure in the programming language
+[652.82 --> 659.26]  and the way we handle libraries in dart will certainly help you the projects we have been
+[659.26 --> 666.76]  supporting in dart they have all been saying that as soon as they uh get used to the new language which
+[666.76 --> 672.84]  doesn't take very long they really really like uh the the typing and the tools so they can you can do
+[672.84 --> 678.34]  refactoring that really counts when you build big applications and you have to maintain them over time
+[678.34 --> 685.00]  yeah one of the the and this is kind of an aside here the fact that dart doesn't hoist variables i think
+[685.00 --> 690.68]  makes it uh a lot easier to read like you know top to bottom than javascript just in general i mean
+[690.68 --> 696.32]  that's like a a one little teeny feature of dart but like a major impact in readability when i've
+[696.32 --> 703.42]  since i've noticed it so you asked uh what do we want to see in 5 10 15 years i'm extremely motivated
+[703.42 --> 712.00]  to help the web continue to develop and deliver amazing experiences on mobile devices and so if anything
+[712.00 --> 716.90]  we can do to help developers just naturally and organically continue to pick the web to deliver
+[716.90 --> 723.16]  these really great experiences then i'm very happy i feel like at this point we need to give developers
+[723.16 --> 727.56]  who are used to building on native platforms and who have very high expectations and tools and
+[727.56 --> 731.84]  productivity i need to deliver that to developers when they want to target the web
+[731.84 --> 740.14]  yeah so i think that that that's definitely a uh uh uh what's the what's the word a pretty broad
+[740.14 --> 744.40]  goal right and i think that that's that there's nothing wrong with that i think that's a that's a
+[744.40 --> 751.64]  that's a great goal but uh how do you how do you do that i mean i guess my question is i'm i'm trying to
+[751.64 --> 757.38]  figure out a good way to word this but so in the 90s like you know javascript comes about and then all
+[757.38 --> 761.64]  of a sudden today it's ubiquitous and it's everywhere and you can you know use it in any environment that
+[761.64 --> 766.48]  basically a browser exists and and and now with node in cases of not the browser existing so
+[766.48 --> 771.92]  like how does dart go from where it is now to becoming like a ubiquitous where you can use it
+[771.92 --> 778.80]  anywhere well in the the first phase here it was very important to focus on the the web client and
+[778.80 --> 784.86]  making sure that we can do web applications really well the next step is of course of course uh uh running
+[784.86 --> 790.04]  on the uh the front end of the server so you can use the same programming language the same libraries
+[790.04 --> 797.62]  in the client but also on the server side and with our last released uh release we we send out some
+[797.62 --> 803.44]  more io code so you can actually run uh the the dart system on the server side so it's clear that
+[803.44 --> 809.10]  if you can span from the client to the server it gives huge advantages to to the programmers
+[809.10 --> 819.96]  yeah but again the uh what i would like to say that uh what's important to us is to make sure that
+[819.96 --> 827.86]  we provide a very efficient uh programming platform and uh of course it's great to get more users but
+[827.86 --> 837.48]  making sure that people can innovate faster uh is is a clear goal for us um i think um that is a
+[837.48 --> 841.46]  different language and it's certainly not everybody that likes a new language for the web
+[841.46 --> 846.76]  but deep down i think that innovation is what's going to make the web even better
+[846.76 --> 852.94]  so it may be worth it to just talk about what is dart for a second because we we've talked a lot
+[852.94 --> 857.84]  about the language a lot and i'm not sure many people know the full breadth or scope of the platform
+[857.84 --> 863.70]  so real briefly it is its own language um and i'd love to hear lars talk a little bit about some of
+[863.70 --> 868.92]  the influences to that but there's also a core set of libraries which i think is really missing from
+[868.92 --> 873.54]  the web platform right now it's very hard to say like what kind of collection facilities do i have
+[873.54 --> 879.72]  what do i have for dates and times what do i have for stopwatches debugging uh you name it uh so dart
+[879.72 --> 884.56]  ships with a very rich core set of libraries it also has a package manager and inside the package
+[884.56 --> 893.36]  manager you can go get libraries for crypto game uh game drivers um image processors you name it
+[893.36 --> 899.74]  there's i think over 880 packages in our package repo right now we also ship uh an editor and
+[899.74 --> 905.94]  plugins for other editors like sublime and webstorm and eclipse uh and then we have of course a dart to
+[905.94 --> 912.80]  js compiler and we also have a great static analyzer which is speaks to that uh productivity aspect of dart
+[912.80 --> 921.12]  where because dart is static and toolable i can run programs that tell me where i have warnings and errors
+[921.12 --> 926.66]  before i run the program and that's such a huge productivity win so it's i really think of dart as a
+[926.66 --> 933.30]  as a platform on which i can build so it's interesting because we actually had uh rob pike and andrew geron on
+[933.30 --> 940.44]  the show to talk about goo or goo that's funny talk about go a while back but uh it feels kind of like
+[940.44 --> 946.94]  you are taking the same like approach to dart as you as they are with go and that you know tooling and
+[946.94 --> 952.62]  like productivity is a is a major major part of it it's not just a language that's you know that
+[952.62 --> 957.14]  that's it's right it's not just the syntax that compiles the javascript it's its own language with
+[957.14 --> 963.54]  its improved semantics uh better developer productivity and very toolable but i think the
+[963.54 --> 969.50]  there are certainly big differences between uh go and dart yeah one thing i would like to highlight
+[969.50 --> 974.08]  is that we have been very conservative when designing the language so if you have a background
+[974.08 --> 982.48]  in java or c sharp or javascript it should be very easy to start being productive in dart i would say
+[982.48 --> 988.60]  in a few hours you can probably understand most of the semantics of dart and that has been a goal
+[988.60 --> 995.24]  from the beginning so that we can easily get programmers to be productive in our system yeah
+[995.24 --> 1003.72]  so talking about uh a little bit about the community of dart here the is it similar as go
+[1003.72 --> 1008.42]  where like it's an open language and that the kind of the whole world can see the changes that are made
+[1008.42 --> 1012.74]  but you're you're hesitant to accept changes from the outside world as of right now anyway
+[1012.74 --> 1020.74]  or on the contrary we want all the changes we can get so the so everything that relates to dart
+[1020.74 --> 1028.34]  is out in the open uh even from day one uh all our chains let's go directly to the outside and and
+[1028.34 --> 1036.58]  we are getting patches in from uh from external developers and we encourage that a lot it's of
+[1036.58 --> 1044.82]  course clear it's clear that for some uh corner cases of the the advanced compiler not many people
+[1044.82 --> 1050.60]  contribute uh but uh in in more light areas uh we get a lot of contribution uh especially when it
+[1050.60 --> 1057.28]  comes to packages and and so on but on that note the language itself is now in the ecma
+[1057.28 --> 1064.48]  spec uh process in fact there was some really good news there with the ecma group tc52 has been
+[1064.48 --> 1070.40]  meeting to discuss the dart language spec itself and it looks great and it looks on track so what does
+[1070.40 --> 1073.98]  that mean for dart when when if dart becomes standardized what does that what does that
+[1073.98 --> 1078.40]  mean how does that change the game it basically means that there's an official process how the
+[1078.40 --> 1085.44]  language is going to change in the future so we inside google cannot just decide um to change it
+[1085.44 --> 1091.08]  and i think that's really important if we want to have other companies or organizations implement
+[1091.08 --> 1097.32]  another version of the vm because then they can join the committee and make sure they have an
+[1097.32 --> 1103.80]  influence in how the language is going to change in the future do you think that there's it's double
+[1103.80 --> 1108.96]  yeah it's double important too when you're talking about building web languages and things that need
+[1108.96 --> 1115.10]  to live in the open like the web ecosystem does so i think a lot of developers are just look for that
+[1115.10 --> 1121.22]  to make sure that they can trust this is something that has legs and longevity let's pause the show
+[1121.22 --> 1125.66]  for just a minute give a shout out to our sponsors fresh books you know we use fresh books here at
+[1125.66 --> 1131.42]  the change login i gotta i gotta say i'm probably logged into fresh books five ten times or more a
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+[1230.18 --> 1239.22]  and you'll get access to that 60 day free trial from fresh books do it now do you think that uh
+[1239.22 --> 1244.46]  the lack of standardization right now has prevented anyone from considering building a vm for dart other
+[1244.46 --> 1253.12]  than google um we're still early in the process i would say um but the you cannot make a standard
+[1253.12 --> 1258.98]  out of something that's moving uh fast so it's important that you have a basic design of the language
+[1258.98 --> 1266.28]  and it's fairly stable before you standardize it so you need to be at a certain uh stage before you
+[1266.28 --> 1270.36]  can start standardizing i think we are there now we haven't changed the language very much since we
+[1270.36 --> 1277.02]  came out with one o in november uh so this is the right time to do it and uh we expect that the
+[1277.02 --> 1283.68]  the current spec is will be ratified in in the ecma tc 52 here uh this summer
+[1283.68 --> 1289.24]  that's pretty quick actually i feel like that just a few months to to have the spec ratified
+[1289.24 --> 1299.58]  well we started the process um uh late last year so okay it's half a year so yeah so it's funny when
+[1299.58 --> 1303.84]  we talked about i i felt like i had heard about dart much longer you said the project's only about three
+[1303.84 --> 1312.80]  years old yeah a good three years yeah so when you say yeah i mean just i i just remember hearing
+[1312.80 --> 1316.96]  about dart and i guess maybe i've made so many life changes in the last couple years that it seems
+[1316.96 --> 1322.14]  like it's been a lot longer but but that's a pretty quick process in general to to start the language and
+[1322.14 --> 1327.34]  get to a point now where we're talking about you know like like when you started dart three years ago
+[1327.34 --> 1332.28]  was it something that it was an experiment or or did you did you kind of envision it being this
+[1332.28 --> 1341.84]  here only three years in the future um well i hoped it would be at this point uh so but when you
+[1341.84 --> 1349.60]  started it was not an experiment uh um like five years ago um i did an experiment with casper that
+[1349.60 --> 1356.50]  where we spent one quarter do a dart like dart like language we did a vm and an implementation just
+[1356.50 --> 1362.74]  to see how it would work on the web um and that looked pretty good so uh three years ago we got
+[1362.74 --> 1369.26]  the the go ahead uh to do it but it was not an experiment we really wanted to change how you did
+[1369.26 --> 1375.94]  uh web applications or you could there was an alternative to do web applications so uh i think
+[1375.94 --> 1381.10]  we are on good track three years is not long for a new programming language and we're getting good
+[1381.10 --> 1386.48]  traction the the interesting part is that people that actually have tried uh dart and developed
+[1386.48 --> 1393.18]  some real code with it they are fairly happy and that's what makes me proud yeah i mean i would
+[1393.18 --> 1397.46]  encourage anyone to just go to the website and and you can tell very quickly that this is not
+[1397.46 --> 1402.38]  it's very different from javascript in a lot of senses but it's very easy to pick up and you can
+[1402.38 --> 1406.32]  just kind of you can tell that that there's a lot of emphasis put in like you know if you're a web
+[1406.32 --> 1410.44]  developer if you've built things for the web right now it's not a huge hurdle to be able to write
+[1410.44 --> 1416.80]  dart and i think that's a major win uh for you guys for sure and uh just to to talk about the
+[1416.80 --> 1423.68]  seriousness of the project we are working we really hard to have a very clear semantics that's documented
+[1423.68 --> 1428.48]  with a language specification and making sure the implementations we have are conformant so
+[1428.48 --> 1436.54]  um that's what we spend a lot of time on and also making sure that when we generate a javascript
+[1436.54 --> 1442.76]  from dart we validate the resulting code it runs in the various modern browsers like internet explorer
+[1442.76 --> 1452.28]  firefox safari and obron so i want to move on a little bit to the language itself and some of the
+[1452.28 --> 1455.66]  design and the thought behind the language do you do you have anything else you want to say about
+[1455.66 --> 1457.86]  just the motivation and the theory behind dart
+[1457.86 --> 1466.80]  i'm just super happy being able to write in dart so i think it's really cool that i get to come to
+[1466.80 --> 1471.98]  work and work on something that actually makes me happier to build for the web so that i feel like
+[1471.98 --> 1477.72]  that's a win yeah for sure so let's talk a little bit about the language itself um can you kind of give
+[1477.72 --> 1483.86]  me some i don't know like obviously there this is hard to summarize in a few you know sentences because
+[1483.86 --> 1487.86]  i'm sure a lot of thought went behind this but but can you give me some some of the insight into
+[1487.86 --> 1491.50]  like the thought behind the language and and what the process looked like to figure out you know the
+[1491.50 --> 1499.10]  syntax of the language and all that well first of all we have to um to say that the only way to get
+[1499.10 --> 1504.64]  a successful language is to to include curly braces so that was the first thing oh and semicolons
+[1504.64 --> 1512.30]  and semicolons yes of course of course um and then secondly we uh we knew from the beginning that
+[1512.30 --> 1518.30]  it had to be translated to javascript and that uh uh sort of was a challenge because some of the
+[1518.30 --> 1522.86]  language feature we wanted to have into the language we could not put in because they would not translate
+[1522.86 --> 1528.86]  to efficient javascript so the design process was uh sort of very iterative in in coming up with a
+[1528.86 --> 1534.22]  feature that matched the language and then implement and see how it would look in in javascript one thing
+[1534.22 --> 1541.10]  uh or a feature we didn't put in we wanted to have but we could not make efficient on top of javascript
+[1541.10 --> 1547.18]  was non-local returns as you probably know from small talk it's a way to bail out from a recursive
+[1547.18 --> 1552.30]  algorithm very quickly but in javascript you could only implement that by throwing exception
+[1552.30 --> 1557.66]  and that was really slow on most implementations yeah yeah one thing that i found really fascinating
+[1557.66 --> 1563.18]  when i talked to the co-founders and some of the other vm uh developers for dart is the difference in
+[1563.18 --> 1570.86]  how how vm design impacted the language design so maybe lars like when you you helped build v8 and you
+[1570.86 --> 1575.98]  you took the javascript language which is very flexible uh and but you but you ultimately made
+[1575.98 --> 1582.06]  it very fast how did that experience help us design the dart language so that the implementations can be
+[1582.06 --> 1590.62]  fast well javascript is very flexible uh if you try to access a property that's not there you return
+[1590.94 --> 1596.78]  an undefined if you if you set a property that's not there you will expand the object with a new
+[1596.78 --> 1604.94]  property and so in order to make a v8 fast we had to design for a sweet spot kind of application
+[1605.90 --> 1611.58]  and the problem with that is that if you from the side create a new library and you poke at a few
+[1611.58 --> 1617.10]  objects suddenly the application would be slow so one of the design goals of dart was also to make sure
+[1617.10 --> 1623.18]  that we had an execution model that would be robust when it came to performance right so you can actually
+[1623.18 --> 1628.46]  trust that if you had a performance library it will continue to be robust no matter how you used it
+[1629.90 --> 1636.46]  so one of the impacts of that is dart has classes and the dart program is declared and then when the
+[1637.18 --> 1641.98]  virtual machine you know scans it and then parses it and then compiles it that's the structure of the
+[1641.98 --> 1647.18]  program and you can know that that is the structure so the vm can more quickly more easily and more
+[1647.18 --> 1653.42]  efficiently optimize that program we basically borrowed the the the optic model from small talk
+[1654.70 --> 1661.02]  so a very simple optic model where in a class you define the the fields you want to have for the
+[1661.02 --> 1669.34]  instances and but you cannot expand it at one time so fields have to be declared and the same way if you
+[1669.34 --> 1678.30]  have a non-global array and you access a fear an element outside the range you get an exception instead of
+[1678.30 --> 1684.94]  expanding the array so it's more rigid than than small talk in some sense on the other hand you also
+[1684.94 --> 1691.18]  you get notified if you do something wrong like in javascript if you do if you if you have a spelling error
+[1691.18 --> 1697.66]  what happens is the program continues to run but it doesn't behave the right way in dart you'll be notified
+[1697.66 --> 1704.38]  you try to access something that's not there so we talked a little bit about how flexible javascript
+[1704.38 --> 1709.98]  is and that's a kind of a double-edged sword right like it's it's neat and it's nice because it allows
+[1709.98 --> 1715.34]  me to do a lot but it also makes it very easy for like developers to make mistakes and in a lot of ways
+[1715.34 --> 1720.70]  because well for a few reasons i would imagine right the first is obviously that uh in order to compile
+[1720.70 --> 1726.06]  dart down to javascript like it's it's a lot easier when dart is more restrictive than javascript to be able
+[1726.06 --> 1731.02]  to compile to javascript and the other way is it's a lot harder it seems like to make mistakes in dart
+[1731.02 --> 1735.34]  in the classical way that that you can make mistakes in javascript can is it was that was that part of
+[1735.34 --> 1742.30]  the thought process behind some of the restrictions in dart uh clearly because uh if we want to support
+[1742.30 --> 1748.54]  programming in the lot right it's very important for a programmer that he can write a piece of code and be
+[1748.54 --> 1754.94]  fairly certain that it will work against the other libraries in the project so certainly having having a
+[1754.94 --> 1761.98]  tool chain that will check that the way you use the system is valid is important for big programs so
+[1761.98 --> 1769.58]  that was part of the design criteria and also in javascript not only properties for normal
+[1771.02 --> 1777.10]  fields can be added but you can also change the functionality as you go along at one time so for
+[1777.10 --> 1782.38]  instance if you want to swap two functions in the library of javascript you can do that without
+[1783.18 --> 1788.46]  getting notified but the program doesn't behave the right way in dart we have decided that the
+[1789.34 --> 1793.50]  libraries are declared and class are declared that means that when you first stop running
+[1793.50 --> 1798.70]  they will stay the same functional from the beginning of the program execution to the end and that also
+[1798.70 --> 1807.42]  means that you'll not get a problem with conflicts in javascript you can have monkey patching and if two
+[1807.42 --> 1813.58]  libraries that are monkey patching a core object you can get into a sort of interesting behavior
+[1815.82 --> 1821.42]  so uh one thing i want to bring up just kind of as another little aside here you've you've mentioned
+[1821.42 --> 1825.18]  what the first thing you mentioned was that uh obviously it had to have curly braces because you
+[1825.18 --> 1829.98]  know it's impossible to have a successful language without them and you've talked a lot about the influence
+[1829.98 --> 1835.34]  small talk the small talk had on dart uh one of my co-workers said he thinks it's reasonable
+[1835.34 --> 1839.26]  to describe dart as small talk with curly braces totally before this show in the same way that
+[1839.26 --> 1844.70]  javascript is you know scheme with curly braces uh how how do you feel about that statement that's a
+[1845.50 --> 1849.82]  i'm honored if if that's a statement because small talk is one of these languages that are
+[1850.86 --> 1855.98]  very minimal and elegant uh so if he thinks we are close to that i'm very happy
+[1857.50 --> 1864.14]  we try to have a very simple execution model we think that if you have a simple execution model it's much
+[1864.14 --> 1869.10]  easier for the programmer to understand what's going on when he runs the program for instance if you go
+[1869.10 --> 1874.14]  into a debugger and do a single step we want the people to be fully aware of what's going on
+[1875.50 --> 1881.82]  and by having simple semantics like you mentioned before that that variables are staying in the scopes
+[1881.82 --> 1888.46]  that are cleared in like we have a clean lexical scoping it's much easier to understand what's going on in
+[1888.46 --> 1898.38]  in these cases and we think this is a the more comfortable the programmer is with the execution of
+[1898.38 --> 1903.66]  a program the more experimentation he does and the more innovation and i think that makes him a better
+[1903.66 --> 1908.94]  programmer or her a better programmer yeah it's almost like the flexibility of javascript in some
+[1908.94 --> 1916.38]  ways can prevent you from from being too um uh too experimental because you're afraid of what of the
+[1916.38 --> 1920.86]  unknown consequences right like with dart you know exactly what you're going to get uh it's very
+[1920.86 --> 1924.86]  predictable and so it's it's a little bit easier to like try and experiment without worrying about
+[1924.86 --> 1929.26]  you know impacting the rest of the large project you're working on so the other flip side oh go
+[1929.26 --> 1935.90]  ahead lars i just one short comment before seth um so um i've used a many different programming
+[1935.90 --> 1942.14]  languages but one thing that's interesting with dart is that i get the same feeling as when i program in
+[1942.14 --> 1948.46]  small talk in the old days you want to make the program better so often you you write your class
+[1948.46 --> 1954.06]  and you start experimenting with it making it smaller and denser and better that feeling as a programmer
+[1954.06 --> 1959.42]  is very powerful it makes you make the program look good and it also makes it more robust going forward
+[1961.26 --> 1966.30]  so you mentioned experimenting and maybe like features of language make it easier or harder this is
+[1966.30 --> 1971.58]  something i think dart's done pretty well at least at least for me and i think it's really critical for a
+[1971.58 --> 1976.38]  language of the web that is when you start a web project you might have a very small little script
+[1976.38 --> 1981.02]  you know no type annotations probably just some functions and then you hit reload in your browser
+[1981.02 --> 1984.30]  and then you see it you see it pop up right there you're like wow that was really cool and then you
+[1984.30 --> 1988.86]  might add another couple functions and you hit reload you wow and before you know it you're actually
+[1988.86 --> 1994.30]  experimenting and trying out the platform you're building up a mini little app and dart allows you to
+[1994.30 --> 2000.22]  start way at that beginning where you just have some functions and reload but it helps you grow over time
+[2000.22 --> 2005.34]  and scale up to when you're actually ready to add some classes and then you're ready to add maybe a
+[2005.34 --> 2010.62]  library and then you maybe you're ready to add type annotations and so from an experimenting point of
+[2010.62 --> 2017.10]  view i actually find dart easier because i can start as early as i want in that kind of scope or scale but i
+[2017.10 --> 2021.98]  can keep going and keep going and keep going and i don't sort of collapse under my own weight and also due to
+[2021.98 --> 2029.58]  that structure of things like classes and libraries and ultimately packages and interfaces and that you
+[2029.58 --> 2036.54]  know all that great stuff um the experimenting of becomes even easier in the ecosystem because i can
+[2036.54 --> 2041.50]  build on top of the structure other people build and so i don't need to put something out into the
+[2041.50 --> 2046.06]  community and hope it doesn't monkey patch and sort of step over somebody else's stuff for so for
+[2046.06 --> 2053.66]  experimenting i actually think dart is really really productive awesome yeah true let me ask you a
+[2053.66 --> 2058.62]  question here i'm just reading through one of your faqs which by the way if you are listening to this
+[2058.62 --> 2063.74]  show and you have any interest in dart whatsoever go to the website and just like read through the faqs
+[2063.74 --> 2067.74]  and the and the different things about the language it's a it's a this is one of the best things i think
+[2067.74 --> 2074.62]  dart has done so this is our bullet plate for the show i think i mean this this uh faqs list yeah i mean
+[2074.62 --> 2080.14]  it's incredible reading through this and just being able to uh to easily see kind of the evolution of
+[2080.14 --> 2085.10]  the language as well as like the the the differences but one of the things that i'm looking for and i
+[2085.10 --> 2088.70]  haven't really been able to find because these have to exist right there there has to be some sort
+[2088.70 --> 2093.18]  of gotchas for for javascript developers that are coming to dart it can't just be all you know like
+[2093.18 --> 2099.02]  butterflies and flowers like there has to be something here that's like if you typically do uh this in
+[2099.02 --> 2103.50]  javascript this will catch you up here do you know of any kind of common pitfalls or gotchas that that
+[2103.50 --> 2109.42]  javascript developers might experience coming to dart well it's clear that we don't we don't we don't
+[2109.42 --> 2116.22]  have eval so if if you are big on uh getting text strings converted into code and execute on the fly
+[2116.70 --> 2122.22]  i think it's a problem in dart because we have decided to make it much more structured for various
+[2122.22 --> 2130.14]  reasons and so that's certainly something you have to get used to but other than that yeah there
+[2130.14 --> 2135.26]  doesn't seem to be a bunch which seems like uh like a pretty awesome thing but it you wonder if
+[2135.26 --> 2140.06]  there is there a catch you know what i mean well we've run numerous hackathons internally to the
+[2140.06 --> 2146.86]  company externally the company we had a recent global dart flight school program which we ran and uh so i've
+[2146.86 --> 2152.14]  seen it numerous times people are up and running in dart in about an hour and they come from all different
+[2152.14 --> 2158.46]  backgrounds and this is one of the reasons i really uh really like this project is because it it is so
+[2158.46 --> 2163.26]  approachable i've seen high school students um some of their first programming experience in these
+[2163.26 --> 2168.38]  hackathons have a web page built and i've seen people with years and years of java years and years
+[2168.38 --> 2174.30]  of action script years and years of javascript all all get up and running so uh at least in my experience
+[2174.30 --> 2179.42]  it's it's very approachable and familiar and there's not really a lot of those gotchas based on your
+[2179.42 --> 2185.42]  other language because job um because dart says okay we've learned a lot of great lessons we're making this a
+[2185.42 --> 2191.26]  a familiar approachable experience so let me let me ask you that one of the what i believe is
+[2191.26 --> 2196.38]  probably the best lesson that uh dart learned and and i mean wow looking at the kind of the
+[2196.38 --> 2202.62]  implementation here is like querying the dom and you know anyone anyone who was around before jquery
+[2202.62 --> 2207.42]  knows like querying the dom in javascript was an absolute nightmare and then when jquery came along
+[2207.42 --> 2211.26]  you're like oh wow i can query it based on these selectors and it's like so much easier and everything
+[2211.26 --> 2216.78]  makes sense and i look at the dart you know how dart queries it on there's there's two succinct
+[2216.78 --> 2221.82]  methods to query the dom and that's all you have to worry about oh it gets even better uh what is
+[2221.82 --> 2228.06]  returned to you are actual iterables uh and so you no longer have like array like things or arrays
+[2228.86 --> 2234.62]  because of that rich core library that we have that you get out of the box with dart you've got lists
+[2234.62 --> 2240.38]  and arrays and sets and maps and iterables and once you have that core library then the other
+[2240.38 --> 2244.94]  libraries like the html library get to use those as well so if you know dart programming
+[2244.94 --> 2250.38]  then you know web programming so i don't even know if people are going to be able to function
+[2250.38 --> 2255.82]  knowing that i mean when i start building something for the web like step one is get all your javascript
+[2255.82 --> 2259.50]  requirements and one of those is jquery like how are people going to even know how to get started
+[2259.50 --> 2262.70]  without having to go out and download the latest production build of jquery
+[2262.70 --> 2272.14]  i guess we could yeah i guess skip that step yeah i'm not embarrassed that it's too easy
+[2274.70 --> 2283.58]  so i think we should we should mention again that that dart has a very comprehensive basic library
+[2284.06 --> 2291.26]  that's very cool we have for asynchronous programming you have futures and streams and that's a very
+[2291.26 --> 2298.06]  consistent way of doing asynchronous programming and we have all these collection types that really fit
+[2298.06 --> 2305.74]  well together so i think if people are used to a programming language where you have a a good self
+[2305.74 --> 2312.70]  libraries like if you come from java or c sharp that is actually very interesting to look at for web
+[2312.70 --> 2318.70]  programming and and because of the fact that yeah these futures which are sort of like promises in a sense
+[2318.70 --> 2325.34]  and javascript are baked into the core platform all the other packages out in the dart ecosystem use
+[2325.34 --> 2331.42]  all these same core primitives so there's no more like which one of these do i use just everyone uses
+[2331.42 --> 2336.46]  futures for the one-shot callbacks and streams for the repeating callbacks and it just propagates the
+[2336.46 --> 2341.58]  ecosystem and it's just another one of those decision points that the community doesn't have to debate and
+[2341.58 --> 2346.62]  developers don't need to reinvent so everyone can kind of take a step up in terms of what they get to work
+[2346.62 --> 2350.46]  on and contribute back and it's just it's helped everyone be so much more productive
+[2352.38 --> 2357.42]  let's pause the show for just a minute give a shout out to our sponsors new relic if you've got a web
+[2357.42 --> 2363.90]  or mobile application you need to know about new relic it's your new best friend basically it's your easy to use
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+[2442.62 --> 2447.34]  so i think there are like some obvious questions that people will probably have one of them is is um
+[2447.98 --> 2451.90]  what does google use dart on right now that that you can kind of share with us
+[2454.14 --> 2461.10]  sure uh we have an internal sales tool that uh this this is a great story um it's sort of sort of like
+[2461.10 --> 2465.66]  the widow maker project in a sense that they've tried to re rebuild this system a bunch of times and you
+[2465.66 --> 2470.70]  know legacy software right there's a bunch of decisions made and um and they try to rebuild rebuild it and then
+[2470.70 --> 2479.82]  uh recently uh they they did a full rewrite in dart and angular dart and delivered the project on time
+[2479.82 --> 2486.38]  and blew away everyone's expectations and now that's a successful deployment we also have other apps like
+[2486.38 --> 2491.98]  google elections has a really neat app to help track elections around the world and numerous other
+[2491.98 --> 2498.22]  internal tools that we're not quite ready to to share yet but there's a page on our site called who uses dart
+[2498.22 --> 2504.86]  that references some internal and a bunch external as well awesome so there are so there are some
+[2504.86 --> 2509.42]  external uh can you kind of kind of allude to some of those that that without having to go to the site
+[2509.42 --> 2514.70]  here oh sure so uh one of my favorite is this company called soundtrap and what i really like
+[2514.70 --> 2519.58]  about them is not only do they use dart but they also use some of the really cool new html5 features
+[2519.58 --> 2526.94]  like web rtc which is real-time collaborative communication and some of the media stuff like get user media
+[2526.94 --> 2534.22]  and audio and video so they built a collaborative music authoring uh app with dart and web rtc so it's
+[2534.22 --> 2541.66]  such a cool thing another great story is a startup called blossom and i like i like their story because
+[2541.66 --> 2549.66]  they were originally on javascript and uh let's see backbone and they over time gradually their users
+[2549.66 --> 2554.46]  didn't even know it started swapping out some of their components for dart components and so that that
+[2554.46 --> 2558.38]  was really cool to show that yes you can take an existing javascript app and if you like what dart
+[2558.38 --> 2565.66]  has to offer you don't need to rewrite the whole thing you can do it piecemeal awesome so yeah i mean
+[2566.86 --> 2571.10]  yeah i don't have much to say to that other than the fact that this is obviously something that is
+[2571.10 --> 2576.94]  going to continue going in that direction and i think that that's a that's a good thing so just to
+[2576.94 --> 2583.18]  even though we are from google and our only objective with this project here is to make people more
+[2583.18 --> 2590.30]  efficient at doing web applications so everything is open and we are very receptive to to feedback so
+[2590.30 --> 2596.38]  we can make it better so if people are trying it out and they have problems in an area we would like
+[2596.38 --> 2602.06]  to hear the feedback so we can make the system solve that problem one thing i notice here is that
+[2602.86 --> 2609.10]  similar to go uh you don't actually see any google brands on the dart website that's obviously a uh
+[2609.10 --> 2616.30]  uh on purpose correct that's right it's an open source project it's for the web the spec itself
+[2616.30 --> 2622.94]  is in the ecma process now um it's it's no secret that googlers work on the project but like a lot of
+[2622.94 --> 2630.78]  other successful projects for the web it really is for and of the community so the the million dollar
+[2630.78 --> 2636.30]  question and and we kind of talked about this a little bit before um but but how do you know that you've
+[2636.30 --> 2641.74]  for lack of a better term how do you know that you've won with dart like when do you feel like
+[2641.74 --> 2648.86]  okay you've gotten to a point where dart is is here to stay when every developer is building for the
+[2648.86 --> 2655.02]  modern web on mobile devices and uh i don't think we can get there without something toolable and
+[2655.02 --> 2665.18]  productive like dart yeah so um yeah that's a good answer but this the um so it bottoms out to that
+[2665.18 --> 2672.30]  uh we will continue to innovate to make sure the web uh the web platform gets better and better over
+[2672.30 --> 2677.58]  time uh getting success with the programming language is is hard because people have to like
+[2677.58 --> 2683.34]  it they have to like the feel of it when they type in the code at this point it looks really good the
+[2683.34 --> 2689.34]  projects we've seen working working with dart they like it and it's growing right now the community both
+[2689.34 --> 2696.30]  inside our company and also outside so we have been around we've been working on this for three years
+[2696.30 --> 2704.54]  success uh is coming i think it looks pretty good if we have the same uh growth over the next two years
+[2705.10 --> 2712.14]  i would be really really happy because just having the competition going means that even other web
+[2712.14 --> 2717.18]  programming language they will might learn something from what we did in dart and that will lift the whole
+[2717.18 --> 2723.34]  industry hopefully so it's certainly an idea that we can we can make everything better not only the
+[2723.34 --> 2729.58]  dart system yeah you get the feeling that that one of the goals of dart is not just to like catch up
+[2729.58 --> 2734.14]  and be where web programming is now but but one of the goals of dart is to move web development forward
+[2734.14 --> 2738.54]  and i think that's that's a pretty good and you know ambitious but but also one that's necessary
+[2738.54 --> 2744.06]  here i don't know if we should go back and talk about v8 but that's sort of the same with the v8 project
+[2744.06 --> 2750.14]  uh when we started out uh there was not a lot of javascript code being executed because it was very
+[2750.14 --> 2757.42]  slow and and you basically have to have look into the future and figure out what do people want in the
+[2757.42 --> 2764.62]  future when it comes to executing javascript and we decided that the more speed you have the more
+[2764.62 --> 2771.18]  innovation the application developers would go for and that's also what happened and in the process
+[2771.18 --> 2779.42]  all the other browsers got fast javascript engines as well and i think that's great yeah
+[2780.30 --> 2785.98]  that's that's one of the things about um i don't know about javascript about the current state of
+[2785.98 --> 2790.06]  browsers right now is you'll see these ships of browsers and it'll be like you know some javascript
+[2790.06 --> 2796.06]  uh efficiency some some performance increase but but that kind of almost feels like it's plateauing to
+[2796.06 --> 2800.94]  a to a degree where like the the major like you said the the the benefits you got when like v8 started
+[2800.94 --> 2805.50]  coming and things like that were like were much bigger gains than the ones you're seeing right now
+[2805.50 --> 2811.42]  um does dart follow that same trend or or you know obviously dart is young so there's a lot of
+[2811.42 --> 2816.46]  performance increase to come in the future but but you're not plateauing now or there are from ship
+[2816.46 --> 2822.54]  to ship are they are they major efficiency increases that you're seeing that is getting faster and faster with
+[2822.54 --> 2830.38]  each release uh we're doing and we are focusing on it and uh because start is more structured than
+[2830.38 --> 2836.94]  uh then as we mentioned with javascript uh you would see that over time that uh dart will get the same
+[2836.94 --> 2847.42]  kind of performance as uh as java basically except for if you're doing a hardcore um double computation
+[2847.42 --> 2853.66]  uh yeah but that's not our goal but for ordinary uh object-oriented programs we should approach that
+[2853.66 --> 2860.46]  kind of speed so we're aiming high uh but you'll see performance improvements over at least the next few
+[2860.46 --> 2869.50]  years uh yeah no no plateauing in sight yeah you heard it here first we're going to have a web development
+[2869.50 --> 2877.10]  that is as fast as system programming that's a good thing so speaking about performance the the last
+[2877.10 --> 2881.98]  release we had 1.3 really focused on server-side performance one of the questions we get all the
+[2881.98 --> 2887.18]  time is is there a node for dart i think developers like what they see but they know they have to write
+[2887.18 --> 2891.34]  some server code and client code and so they want to know can they do dart on the server and so the
+[2891.34 --> 2897.98]  answer is a resounding definitely uh we the virtual machine runs on the command line uh just like you
+[2897.98 --> 2904.38]  know ruby or python or or v8 and you can get access to files and directories sockets there's a built-in
+[2904.38 --> 2909.82]  web server built-in web sockets ssl and we've recently turned our performance attention over
+[2909.82 --> 2915.74]  to the server side story as well so the story is looking really good awesome oh yeah we since it's
+[2915.74 --> 2921.18]  a language project we also have to say that our internal tools are mostly written in dart so the
+[2921.18 --> 2929.50]  dart to js compiler is of course written in dart and also the analyzer nice so for people that are just
+[2929.50 --> 2934.46]  getting started what's the what's the recommended way to to to do just that to get started with dart
+[2935.34 --> 2943.74]  on the website uh there is a one hour code lab uh called try dart and uh you build up your pirate name
+[2944.62 --> 2948.78]  but it's really great it walks you through the features of the the language it walks you through
+[2948.78 --> 2952.86]  some web programming and yeah just about an hour you're gonna have a working dart app
+[2952.86 --> 2962.78]  so the website is dartlang.org okay awesome i think obviously i mean it's an entire ecosystem
+[2962.78 --> 2967.50]  it's not just a language we can sit here and talk about it for for a long time and and i would love to
+[2967.50 --> 2972.22]  uh to do just that but we try and keep the show down to about an hour so i i have a feeling that this
+[2972.22 --> 2976.54]  is going to be one that we're going to want to to have another show on in the future to see where it goes
+[2976.54 --> 2981.34]  um but but for now i want to give you guys an opportunity anything else that you want to kind of
+[2981.34 --> 2984.46]  to mention about dart for for the people to hear before we move on
+[2987.98 --> 2994.70]  well the uh we hope that people try it out and give us their opinion and and hopefully it's a good
+[2994.70 --> 3003.10]  one um that's pretty much it we'll continue to work hard on making it better over time um so that's
+[3003.10 --> 3009.18]  pretty much it i think it's it's very hard to convince people to use another language over the radio
+[3009.18 --> 3014.22]  uh people have to try it out and have to feel the program is to figure out if something they can be
+[3014.22 --> 3020.94]  productive in so it's a very personal uh kind of decision what's the recommended way to to give
+[3020.94 --> 3029.02]  feedback is it through the uh the mailing list or you can file a file an issue uh on the issue tracker or
+[3029.02 --> 3036.46]  you can send an email to to the mailing list that'll be answered i'd love to ask all developers who are
+[3036.46 --> 3043.26]  interested in dart to go check out pub.dartlang.org that's our hosting site for packages and you'll
+[3043.26 --> 3048.38]  find a tons of great stuff in there from the community um and when when you're building for the
+[3048.38 --> 3053.82]  web don't forget that uh the trends are very clear that everyone's moving to mobile i know i sound like a
+[3053.82 --> 3060.14]  broken record here but if uh if i have to tell anyone anything it's um develop and test on mobile
+[3060.14 --> 3064.38]  phones and tablets for your great web stuff because that's where your users are and and we think dark
+[3064.38 --> 3071.02]  can help you do that awesome so okay great so we we ask our uh our guests the same uh set of questions
+[3071.02 --> 3075.10]  at the end of every show and i want to go ahead and ask you all these questions so i'll ask lars first
+[3075.10 --> 3079.18]  and and you kind of both answered this first one already but and just in case there's anything else
+[3079.18 --> 3086.54]  uh do you have like a call to arms for the community um yes my call to arms is that innovation
+[3086.54 --> 3091.34]  is important and programmers have to be flexible and try out new stuff to see if they're more
+[3091.34 --> 3096.78]  efficient using a different platform there than they used in the past so try out that and and
+[3097.66 --> 3103.50]  see if it's more efficient and set anything from you other than uh building mobile stuff i'll be
+[3103.50 --> 3109.10]  really specific about it in dev tools you can turn on mobile emulation so my call to arms is
+[3109.10 --> 3113.74]  when you develop on your desktop and you're you're in chrome or dev tools turn on mobile emulation
+[3113.74 --> 3118.38]  and just always live with that uh that little window there gotcha
+[3120.46 --> 3125.98]  the second question here is um if you weren't doing this what would you be doing and i'll ask you first
+[3125.98 --> 3133.18]  seth uh probably doing something around education or teaching i'm really inspired by the uh the mooc the
+[3133.18 --> 3137.42]  the online classes and courseware stuff and so i don't know i think i think that'd be pretty interesting
+[3137.42 --> 3145.26]  gotcha and for you lars oh i need more spare time i am i would travel the world uh on a bike
+[3146.22 --> 3148.62]  um well you can only travel part of the world on a bike
+[3150.70 --> 3150.78]  yeah
+[3150.78 --> 3159.02]  but i think i get on a plane at some point or a boat that that is true but uh half a year on the bike
+[3159.02 --> 3164.86]  would be great for me uh but i always have so i've tried it before and it never works so
+[3164.86 --> 3170.94]  um i would say if i don't do that i would probably do another language or vm project nice
+[3172.94 --> 3178.06]  and lars um for a programmer hero or just somebody that's been hugely influential in your life
+[3179.26 --> 3185.90]  oh i have to mention my old professor ole lehmann masson uh he was the uh co-designer of the beta
+[3185.90 --> 3193.50]  programming language a successor to similar 67 if you remember that uh he's been very inspirational in
+[3193.50 --> 3197.90]  pushing me to do languages and and virtual machine implementation all the way back in the
+[3198.78 --> 3205.82]  mid 80s so that's he's probably the main reason why i'm um doing it still that's awesome and seth
+[3206.70 --> 3212.46]  i gotta say uh neil degrasse tyson the scientist and educator is just really inspiring to me because
+[3212.46 --> 3218.46]  that's someone who clearly knows what he's doing and talking about but is so passionate and inspirational
+[3218.46 --> 3224.06]  with how he delivers that stuff to to the world so i really enjoy watching him i've actually been
+[3224.06 --> 3228.86]  waiting for the day for somebody to mention him as their hero because he's he's uh he's been a
+[3228.86 --> 3233.58]  personal hero for many that i've known and he's with the new show recently obviously it's really good
+[3233.58 --> 3238.30]  so people are really enjoying his method of teaching kind of comes from his own predecessor too
+[3238.30 --> 3250.06]  yeah nobody said anything to that no no love for adam no love for adam i've been listening to this
+[3250.06 --> 3253.66]  show i mean this is one of those shows where i wanted to kind of jump in but i feel like i don't
+[3253.66 --> 3258.70]  add a ton i wanted to kind of dig in a bit more about the pub package manager but uh we can save that
+[3258.70 --> 3265.18]  for a different show i'm sure yeah yeah so anything else you guys want to mention here before we go ahead
+[3265.18 --> 3273.02]  and close out the show uh just thanks for inviting us um we need to to get everybody to listen in on
+[3273.02 --> 3278.70]  what that is all about so um we are just happy to be here yeah i really appreciate the opportunity i
+[3278.70 --> 3284.38]  remember uh the changelog is always one of those podcasts that is on the top of my queue and for a
+[3284.38 --> 3289.74]  long time now so it's it's kind of an honor to be on the show so thanks well it's an honor to have
+[3289.74 --> 3294.78]  you guys so what so i just wanted to absolutely yeah so i wanted to once again just say thanks to
+[3294.78 --> 3300.38]  lars and seth for joining us on today's show like like we kind of kind of alluded to uh dart is a
+[3300.38 --> 3307.18]  is a big project and um it's hard to to do any project the size of dart you know justice in a 45
+[3307.18 --> 3312.46]  minute to an hour radio show uh so i just want to encourage just like they were saying to encourage
+[3312.46 --> 3316.78]  anyone if you're interested in this whatsoever just head over to the website it's it speaks for
+[3316.78 --> 3321.26]  itself and it's something that uh you can just start hacking on in your own time and and really i mean
+[3321.26 --> 3326.46]  just with the small amount of time i've spent on it just to kind of learn it and stuff it's been a uh
+[3326.46 --> 3331.18]  it's been a pleasant experience something worth checking out worth hacking on i think it's uh
+[3331.18 --> 3336.54]  definitely something we will want to consider uh talking about more on this show in the future but
+[3336.54 --> 3341.58]  uh once again i just wanted to say thanks a bunch for joining us and and that's it for this week uh
+[3342.22 --> 3347.26]  just for the listeners if you have not subscribed to the changelog weekly it is our weekly email where we
+[3347.26 --> 3353.02]  share everything that hits our open source radar you can subscribe at the changelog.com weekly
+[3353.98 --> 3360.70]  and um we will be back next week i don't think we know the uh guest yet adam so we will save that as
+[3360.70 --> 3366.46]  a super the guest is still pending yes you're right yeah yeah so until next week though let's say goodbye
+[3367.02 --> 3368.54]  all right bye-bye thank you
+[3377.26 --> 3383.58]  you

Inspeqtor and OSS Products_transcript.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,607 @@
+[0.00 --> 14.46]  welcome back everyone this is the changelog and i'm your host adam stekowiak this is episode
+[14.46 --> 21.34]  130 jared and i talked to mike parham he's back again just like sidekick he's got inspector now
+[21.34 --> 28.48]  another open source slash pro version of software out there for you to use this one is application
+[28.48 --> 33.20]  infrastructure monitoring reimagined it's called inspector now let me talk about that we also
+[33.20 --> 38.60]  talked about other fun ways he's making money as a open source developer so great conversation there
+[38.60 --> 44.96]  we've got some awesome sponsors for this show code ship hired.com and digital ocean we'll tell
+[44.96 --> 49.90]  you a bit more about hired.com and digital ocean later in the show but our friends at code ship
+[49.90 --> 54.62]  is a hosted continuous deployment service that just works you can easily set up continuous
+[54.62 --> 59.34]  integration for your application in just a few steps and automatically deploy all your code
+[59.34 --> 64.80]  when your tests pass code ship has great support for lots of languages test frameworks as well as
+[64.80 --> 69.84]  notification services they integrate with github and bitbucket and can deploy your code to cloud
+[69.84 --> 76.72]  services like heroku aws nojitsu google app engine or even your own servers setup takes just three
+[76.72 --> 82.52]  minutes get started today with their free plan and make sure you use our code the changelog podcast
+[82.52 --> 89.66]  again that code is the changelog podcast and you will get a 20 discount for three months on any
+[89.66 --> 94.10]  plan you choose head to codeship.io and now on to the show
+[94.10 --> 102.34]  welcome back everyone we're uh we're joined here with a guest that's no uh stranger to the show mike
+[102.34 --> 107.32]  param and mike you're also not a stranger to the changelog we've covered all sorts of stuff that you've
+[107.32 --> 114.20]  done over the years everything from dolly to sidekick to launchy um launchy lunchy i'm not sure
+[114.20 --> 119.98]  if i which it's launchy launchy i think we pronounce it's spelled launchy though right yeah it is yeah
+[119.98 --> 126.76]  there's already a gym called launchy so i couldn't i couldn't squat on that name right so i'm here mike's
+[126.76 --> 133.86]  here jared's here jared say hello hey we uh we've been waiting to i think maybe about a month or two to
+[133.86 --> 138.32]  to have this conversation you've been working on something brand new so maybe the best way to start
+[138.32 --> 144.40]  would be to just you know get you know tell us what's going on what you do brand now sure um for
+[144.40 --> 148.46]  the last four months i've been working on a top secret project uh which i just announced yesterday
+[148.46 --> 156.68]  and it's called inspector um it's my fresh take on application infrastructure monitoring
+[156.68 --> 164.40]  uh that is to say all the moving parts of of a server-side application um a little tool which
+[164.40 --> 169.54]  allows you to monitor all those those moving parts to make sure everything is healthy and if anything
+[169.54 --> 177.10]  looks out of the ordinary inspector will immediately send out alerts to uh to where you wherever you have
+[177.10 --> 184.82]  configured to say hey this doesn't look right uh so it's really helpful in terms of uh just you don't
+[184.82 --> 189.86]  have to watch a dashboard all day or something like that you just you know watch your inbox and
+[189.86 --> 197.52]  and if something shows up that then you know to investigate so inspector comes into a space that's
+[197.52 --> 203.38]  you know has uh some offerings i think you're no stranger to that as sidekick of course famously um
+[203.38 --> 211.78]  was you know rescue um you know done right or done better um inspector has competition with
+[211.78 --> 220.70]  monit with god with uh what's the python one um uh supervisor d yeah so there's a few others
+[220.70 --> 226.98]  blue pill was one i was thinking of so there's there's other players in this space what's inspector's
+[226.98 --> 233.04]  unique take and what's the value add there right so you know if you if you know anything about monit
+[233.04 --> 241.32]  uh it's it's pretty obvious that that monit is the main yeah um the main influence in the way
+[241.32 --> 247.10]  inspector works uh i've used monit for the last five years and i've just always been frustrated
+[247.10 --> 252.64]  with some of its quirks and so i i really wanted to build for the last few years i really wanted to
+[252.64 --> 260.76]  build something that was like sort of a monit plus plus or or my take on monit and so as i as i
+[260.76 --> 264.62]  really got serious about doing this a few months ago i i really started looking at the monit feature
+[264.62 --> 272.22]  set and and just sort of what did i want uh in terms of um you know my previous job was
+[272.22 --> 277.98]  director of infrastructure or director director of technical operations whatever you want to call it
+[277.98 --> 283.18]  but basically if the site had problems i i was the guy who had to whose head was on the line
+[283.18 --> 291.54]  um so this kind of tool uh was critical for for my job i had to know when something was was acting up
+[291.54 --> 299.38]  uh so so yeah i mean i went through uh monit monit's feature set and pared down all the different
+[299.38 --> 304.72]  features that i thought were not useful uh from an application monitoring point of view
+[304.72 --> 312.98]  and added new features that i thought were critical that monit didn't have and and so that's that's what
+[312.98 --> 321.20]  became inspector um inspector has makes some interesting choices in terms of its design that some people
+[321.20 --> 328.76]  aren't going to necessarily like for instance well it doesn't monitor init d legacy init d services
+[328.76 --> 336.00]  really and that's by choice um part of application monitoring is i'm trying to
+[336.68 --> 342.92]  guide people on how to build a reliable application right inspector is going to tell you if something is
+[342.92 --> 350.74]  not not working reliably but it also wants to guide you to build better applications
+[350.74 --> 357.48]  and part of that is using a proper modern init system like upstart like systemd like run it
+[357.48 --> 366.82]  and so uh init d one of the problems with init d is you there's no sort of central demon that you can
+[366.82 --> 374.48]  query for the status of a process or a service um and everything's kind of rolled into this just big
+[374.48 --> 381.24]  hairy bash script in etsy and etsy and so when i realized this a couple months ago i realized that
+[381.24 --> 386.80]  this was a sort of a a decision point in the design here that was going to be fundamental to the way
+[386.80 --> 396.36]  inspector works so do i want to support this legacy um ball of mud or do i want to make a hard stop here
+[396.36 --> 405.36]  and and ask people hey or or guide people or try to educate people about why this is a problem and and and it's not that
+[405.36 --> 412.80]  hard to learn the new the new systems and and thereby get a more reliable uh setup for your application components
+[412.80 --> 420.34]  so that's that's kind of what i did i was gonna say the um so just to kind of give the the listeners
+[420.34 --> 424.90]  who listen to this to kind of a maybe a an outline of what we think this show might be about this time
+[424.90 --> 430.28]  uh in traditional fashion of the changelog we want to go deep we want to figure out all the details of
+[430.28 --> 435.06]  inspector but i think a neat part of this transition for you which you had said this you you didn't want
+[435.06 --> 439.80]  to um you had to make a choice of uh supporting that ball of what was your word
+[439.80 --> 448.86]  ball of mud um so you had to make this choice of of doing that or something else and um episode 92
+[448.86 --> 454.16]  we had you on talking about sidekick you had some success with side sidekick pros so for the listener's
+[454.16 --> 458.74]  sake what we want to do is we want to talk deeply obviously about the insides and the innards so to
+[458.74 --> 465.08]  speak of inspector and what you did there but specifically you you've seemed to hit this um the nail
+[465.08 --> 470.96]  in the head so to speak of success when it comes to delivering open source the right way but also
+[470.96 --> 477.44]  making a living because you've got your wife you've got uh you've got a beautiful uh little boy a furry
+[477.44 --> 484.12]  cat to take care of you know it's not just mike everybody mike's mike's mike but he's got you know
+[484.12 --> 489.60]  family you know so you got to make money and you found this really cool way to do this so can you
+[489.60 --> 496.34]  take us through some of the journey to kind of get to uh making the choice of supporting that uh ball
+[496.34 --> 506.78]  of mud or not sure um yeah i mean at this point in my career um i love writing open source but i'm also
+[506.78 --> 514.88]  i i've also had to make the decision that i'm not a charity um that i'm an experienced engineer and
+[514.88 --> 522.12]  part of that experience is that i write um ideally i i have the experience to make
+[522.12 --> 533.42]  well-designed software um reliable software so um i have to um i i've decided to have a business model
+[533.42 --> 539.16]  where i have both an open source product and a commercial product on top of that that open source
+[539.16 --> 547.08]  core and and that that commercial product is closed source and and you know of course there's
+[547.08 --> 553.40]  some people that really don't like this model but i think uh by and large everybody understands that
+[553.40 --> 558.72]  people have to make a living and i can either work for a corporation that is paying me a salary
+[558.72 --> 564.96]  to work on full-time open source or i can do it on my own um there's a lot of different business
+[564.96 --> 570.40]  models you can you can have of course um yeah oh another popular one is to have services so you do
+[570.40 --> 578.08]  consulting for your product um i think this the sensu guys do do that um they do some sensu i think is
+[578.08 --> 584.24]  some sort of monitoring system uh it's a very complex monitoring system built on top of rabbit mq if i
+[584.24 --> 588.10]  recall similar to reoc too they do the same thing where they have a commercial based version and they
+[588.10 --> 595.66]  have support and right it's it's a model that is kind of it has its pros and cons too yeah exactly
+[595.66 --> 601.92]  and flexibility maybe be one of them you know where it's a corporation multiple people and again you
+[601.92 --> 608.28]  seem like you're you're uh not a rogue you know lone rogue agent but you're you know you like doing
+[608.28 --> 616.46]  things the mic way well and i've specifically tried to avoid the type of business where i would need to
+[616.46 --> 624.18]  build this giant thing and have dozens of employees and take on venture funding and all this kind of
+[624.18 --> 635.52]  stuff um i'm i'm more focused on smaller focused tools like sidekick like inspector that uh i i can
+[635.52 --> 642.24]  create a commercial product for i can support it as a single person and make enough money to provide for
+[642.24 --> 648.94]  my family so uh so was yeah contributed systems is one person bootstraps no no funding at all
+[648.94 --> 655.66]  that's awesome yeah yeah for sure so when you first made this decision back with sidekick
+[655.66 --> 661.20]  was it at conception that you said i'm gonna have sidekick and sidekick pro or did you start off
+[661.20 --> 666.46]  saying i'm gonna do uh you know a threaded version of rescue and then it got popular and then you thought
+[666.46 --> 673.44]  oh i could turn this into a living when i first started out it was more of just a vague notion of
+[673.44 --> 681.20]  well i'm starting my my 10th open source project here and i'm going to work on this for another year
+[681.20 --> 687.50]  and uh there go my nights and weekends so how can i actually make some money for this so that i've
+[687.50 --> 695.36]  justified to my wife um so that's why i initially uh just had sidekick it was it was just the open source
+[695.36 --> 703.68]  product i actually sold commercial licenses for sidekick and that did not bring in a ton of money
+[703.68 --> 710.16]  it brought in it brought in like 1500 or something like that over the course of six months but um it
+[710.16 --> 714.90]  didn't bring in nearly enough to justify my time you know when you when you when you took all the
+[714.90 --> 721.60]  hours that i was spending on sidekick i was making minimum wage in terms of uh you know right
+[721.60 --> 727.28]  selling licenses right hours to hours to dollars yeah right so you know that's that's when i said
+[727.28 --> 732.22]  okay i've got this sidekick thing it's moderately successful at this point we're six months in
+[732.22 --> 739.08]  why don't i do a commercial product on top of it and sell that for 10 times as much money
+[739.08 --> 746.36]  um and and to see if i can get people not not just to pay you know because their lawyers tell them
+[746.36 --> 751.78]  but because they want to buy actual useful functionality and so that's when i started
+[751.78 --> 759.16]  i spent about a month building a sidekick pro and uh and then started selling it and you know it it
+[759.16 --> 765.20]  ramped up slowly but surely uh when i when i first threw it out there and announced it i had no idea if
+[765.20 --> 770.50]  anybody would would buy this thing um you know it's a ruby gem people are used to just saying gem install
+[770.50 --> 778.24]  and not having to put in a credit card um but sales were sales were slow at first but they've
+[778.24 --> 785.94]  ramped up to the point now where i can i've got a good income that provides for my family just based
+[785.94 --> 791.34]  on those sales alone so i want to touch on before we move on jared i want to touch on one thing that
+[791.34 --> 797.20]  the listeners might be thinking about in episode 92 we talked to you um about this very topic here but
+[797.20 --> 801.06]  one question that came up that you don't have to go back into but i just want to at least touch on
+[801.06 --> 806.92]  it quickly which is um you know what's stopping somebody from since it's open source taking side
+[806.92 --> 811.92]  pro psychic pro features and putting them in the open source version um that's sort of a hurdle you
+[811.92 --> 816.78]  had to get over how do you prevent that just a quick note on that it's the show it's i don't prevent
+[816.78 --> 823.78]  it and and i have no interest really in preventing it um if somebody wants to reproduce a feature
+[823.78 --> 831.90]  fork sidekick and put it in their own version of sidekick there's legally nothing stopping them
+[831.90 --> 841.46]  from doing that um sidekick itself is lgpl they can fork it and they can add a feature to it as long
+[841.46 --> 847.82]  as that feature remains open source in their fork they can do whatever they want with it the the
+[847.82 --> 853.50]  thing that people are paying for is long-term support they're paying for a roadmap they're paying to know
+[853.50 --> 859.30]  that someone is constantly going to be ensuring that rails 4.2 is going to work with it that rails 5
+[859.30 --> 866.38]  is going to work with it that ruby 2.2 is going to work with it that um they're also paying for taste
+[866.38 --> 874.90]  that i as a project dictator i have the good taste to know which features are good which features will
+[874.90 --> 882.42]  uh add instability to the product um you know that that sort of thing so they're they're paying for
+[882.42 --> 889.64]  the experience and the the oversight of the project to to continue um so yeah there's nothing legally
+[889.64 --> 894.76]  stopping people from doing that you know just same thing with inspector um if people want to fork
+[894.76 --> 903.34]  inspector it's gpl they can add their own feature which copies it um but again i think i'm here for the
+[903.34 --> 907.68]  long run i'm getting i've got a product which is paying me to support this for the next few years
+[907.68 --> 912.82]  if they just fork it and add a feature are they going to maintain it for the next two years
+[912.82 --> 918.00]  right that's a good point you know are they i'm constantly going to be adding new features to the
+[918.00 --> 922.84]  open source and the commercial version are they going to be constantly pulling in those upstream changes
+[922.84 --> 929.36]  you know businesses don't want to deal with that hassle um they just want to buy something that
+[929.36 --> 934.98]  that they know will work and will be there for the next you know in years that they can count on
+[934.98 --> 942.26]  well even the dev ux too like i you know a fellow developer who would use your open source version but
+[942.26 --> 948.04]  once their business you know they might be fine with using let's say sidekick open source on their
+[948.04 --> 954.36]  personal projects but for their you know work they do at their day job or whatever they're doing
+[954.36 --> 959.28]  they want something that has that support so they might use the pro version at work so your
+[959.28 --> 964.52]  customers are still like me and jared you know and the listeners of the show but they just happen to
+[964.52 --> 969.12]  work somewhere else and they and you're right though i think that was a really good point of i don't think
+[969.12 --> 974.56]  you said it like you did in 92 so maybe you perfected your language around it because that sounded so much
+[974.56 --> 978.98]  better than well not so much better like in a bad way but like it sounded really good it was a good point
+[978.98 --> 982.20]  to make that you know you're they're paying for the roadmap they're paying for your taste
+[982.20 --> 988.80]  and they're paying for this you know support along the way not just like day-to-day support like
+[988.80 --> 994.82]  helping with an issue but like that rails for you know 4.2 is going to work and and other versions
+[994.82 --> 1000.92]  and legacy and that kind of stuff so you weren't sure if people were going to buy this though but
+[1000.92 --> 1006.44]  recently you were you released a post where you said uh some of your numbers which was quite gracious
+[1006.44 --> 1011.56]  yeah uh exposing those i know that's kind of a private thing for a lot of people but i think in the
+[1011.56 --> 1016.62]  post you say why and i think it's super helpful for us to see that sidekick pro sales what you said
+[1016.62 --> 1025.34]  for the last three months of 2012 were uh 7500 bucks in 2013 they totaled 85 grand and this year sales
+[1025.34 --> 1032.28]  should top 175 000 those are pretty good numbers yes um especially since congratulations on that
+[1032.28 --> 1038.92]  especially since they are a subscription you know it's no longer a one-time fee so yeah right you charge
+[1038.92 --> 1046.46]  is it 750 bucks a year for the sidekick pro yeah so ideally that is a that i mean that's essentially
+[1046.46 --> 1052.92]  what is paying for inspector right is is that that reoccurring income that i know is going to be there
+[1052.92 --> 1059.22]  so that i can do things like work for four months on a brand new product that i have no idea if anybody's
+[1059.22 --> 1065.52]  going to buy yeah how much time do you have to continue to work on sidekick uh sidekick generally takes
+[1065.52 --> 1072.66]  10 to 20 hours a week right now so significant it's significant i mean i'm i'm answering a lot of
+[1072.66 --> 1080.28]  emails um people still put in issues all the time although typically 90 of those issues are some sort
+[1080.28 --> 1087.12]  of application issue um and then i'm constantly on stack overflow you know if someone posts a sidekick
+[1087.12 --> 1094.98]  tagged question i'm usually answering it within 24 hours so um so yeah i mean it's it's 90
+[1094.98 --> 1100.48]  support at this point um i did just add a feature to psychic pro which i'm going to be
+[1100.48 --> 1106.22]  rolling out in the next version um so you know i am still doing a little bit of feature work but for
+[1106.22 --> 1111.70]  the most part it's mostly support at this point so you're pretty pretty happy with your sales um
+[1111.70 --> 1117.14]  interesting that you decided then to say okay i'm gonna start this new thing same model i mean that
+[1117.14 --> 1121.82]  makes a lot of sense but you know at at your current rates if we're doing our math right maybe that's
+[1121.82 --> 1129.12]  200 250 customers you know you perhaps you could just focus on turning that into a thousand customers
+[1129.12 --> 1135.46]  right um focus on sidekick pro right which is obviously a winner as far as being viable in the
+[1135.46 --> 1143.46]  market what made you decide i'm going to add a second product diversification okay is that ball of
+[1143.46 --> 1148.54]  mud it's no we wanted to fix the problem think about finances right in risk you always talk about
+[1148.54 --> 1156.58]  diversifying your investments right yeah you know you have to diversify um your time and uh and your
+[1156.58 --> 1162.04]  investments and what i've done over the last two three years is invest a lot in the ruby community
+[1162.04 --> 1169.06]  and invest a lot in sidekick however um if you if you take a step back and look at the general
+[1169.06 --> 1177.10]  tech world ruby is two percent three percent of the tech world if you want a wider customer base
+[1177.10 --> 1183.22]  you've got to go with a more generic product and that's exactly what inspector is is inspector is
+[1183.22 --> 1191.76]  useful to anybody using linux you know it doesn't care if you've got a python app a php app um uh you
+[1191.76 --> 1200.90]  know a haskell app if you're a neckbeard uh it it's um it's diversification in the sense that
+[1200.90 --> 1206.92]  if something better than sidekick comes along tomorrow then uh oh what am i going to do
+[1206.92 --> 1214.82]  well now i've got two different products which have slightly overlapping audiences but the venn diagram
+[1214.82 --> 1221.60]  is still significantly different um that is there's not there's a huge new open territory for me
+[1221.60 --> 1228.94]  to uh to find customers in now this is a prime place too because i mean you'd said earlier in the show
+[1228.94 --> 1234.88]  that this is inspired by to a degree uh from mana you know so there's some inspiration there you also
+[1234.88 --> 1239.78]  talked about the ball of mud that you got sick of dealing with so obviously there's something some
+[1239.78 --> 1244.90]  some competitors in the space that weren't cutting the you know cutting the cheese so to speak i don't
+[1244.90 --> 1249.62]  know if that's the right way to say that or not cutting the mustard cutting the mustard there you go
+[1249.62 --> 1255.60]  my bad my bad y'all um it's probably my my texas uh my texas ways or something just
+[1255.60 --> 1260.26]  the off color cutting the brisket but yeah you know yeah cutting the brisket that's a better way
+[1260.26 --> 1266.12]  to say it for texas style so i mean obviously there's something happening there and you like
+[1266.12 --> 1271.44]  you said earlier they're paying for taste so you have taste and why not do it better well and and in
+[1271.44 --> 1278.38]  fact a lot of the linux lower level open source monitoring tools are they're either a decade old
+[1278.38 --> 1284.30]  so they've got a lot of accumulated cruft or they're just i don't know i mean i hate to use
+[1284.30 --> 1288.94]  the term over and over i don't know if it's pejorative or not but they're very neck beard
+[1288.94 --> 1295.64]  oriented they're just not easy to use they're very unfriendly they're very tech heavy um you know i was
+[1295.64 --> 1301.04]  looking someone brought up uh collected as a possible competitor and i looked at collected and
+[1301.04 --> 1313.00]  and its syntax is just terrible um it's just hard to use it's it's ugly yeah i mean i don't know if
+[1313.00 --> 1319.02]  linux people care about this stuff but i do and and i want things to be easy to use so i i do my
+[1319.02 --> 1326.28]  utmost to pare things down to the bare minimum to get sort of a zen they get the uh you know the
+[1326.28 --> 1331.66]  kiss principle in action keep it as simple as humanly possible and so that's why when you look
+[1331.66 --> 1337.58]  at inspectors configuration files they look stupid simple um but they're they're they're the bare
+[1337.58 --> 1345.04]  minimum i needed to achieve what i wanted to achieve and uh you know i hope people uh appreciate that
+[1345.04 --> 1351.64]  let's pause the show for a minute give a shout out to a sponsor digital ocean simple cloud hosting
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+[1398.84 --> 1402.70]  head to digital ocean.com right now to get started and back to the show
+[1402.70 --> 1410.52]  um so i see some patterns here um of you taking a thing and like you said inspector is kind of
+[1410.52 --> 1415.84]  monet plus plus sidekick was kind of rescue plus plus in the same post where you gave your numbers
+[1415.84 --> 1419.58]  which everybody should probably go out and read that it's a great post we'll put in the show notes
+[1419.58 --> 1423.74]  for sure so check out the show notes yeah in there you actually give these repeatable steps that you've
+[1423.74 --> 1428.42]  taken obviously we can kind of see the pattern um but could you walk through the steps you took
+[1428.42 --> 1435.70]  as far as how to come to a successful open source slash commercial product and then perhaps as a
+[1435.70 --> 1439.74]  follow-up give examples of things that you haven't taken on that maybe somebody else sure
+[1439.74 --> 1446.62]  um so step one is to find a tool that is non-trivial and important to your current system or workflow
+[1446.62 --> 1454.00]  that goes right back to if you write a tiny hundred line gem nobody's going to care people can it has to
+[1454.00 --> 1458.92]  be non-trivial it has to be something that will take a lot of time right it has to be something that
+[1458.92 --> 1467.50]  is worthy of someone's consideration to use to outsource or to actually buy from you um so so
+[1467.50 --> 1475.02]  yeah there and and and ideally like you say you want to find something that is a bit painful to use
+[1475.02 --> 1481.62]  maybe it's overly complex or has a lot of features that you don't want um think about microsoft word
+[1481.62 --> 1487.14]  and look at all the text editors out there that are just there's no competition for word and word's not
+[1487.14 --> 1492.42]  competition for them word is just this this giant set of features of which you know you use maybe
+[1492.42 --> 1500.20]  five percent of those features so you know there's is there a market for a word processor that is just
+[1500.20 --> 1507.30]  much much simpler and and i would argue something like a markdown editor is a perfect example where
+[1507.30 --> 1513.20]  you take the essence of word which is writing a formatted document but kind of twisting it so that
+[1513.20 --> 1520.96]  it's much simpler uh and it but is non-trivial to to author and is something that people would pay for
+[1520.96 --> 1528.82]  um so it's it's sort of a different take on a word processor so step two is plan out how you can make
+[1528.82 --> 1533.64]  it better simplify it so you're taking microsoft word and you're going down and you're saying i don't
+[1533.64 --> 1539.96]  need all these toolbars i don't need hundreds of ribbon commands or menu commands or whatever
+[1539.96 --> 1546.38]  um people just want to write formatted nicely formatted documents uh so you're discarding that
+[1546.38 --> 1552.42]  that superfluous functionality and you're adding your own useful functionality at this point
+[1552.42 --> 1559.12]  uh i like to think about um how am i going to divide the functionality how am i going to make a
+[1559.12 --> 1564.44]  business model out of this thing you've got to you've got to draw a line where you you tell customers
+[1564.44 --> 1570.62]  here's what's available to you for free but if you want more you've got to pay for it and um
+[1570.62 --> 1577.84]  and i think like i said 90 of people understand that um and that this is your full-time job and so
+[1577.84 --> 1582.88]  therefore that's just a line you have to draw and then uh and then you're going to build the thing
+[1582.88 --> 1589.84]  and see what happens um you've got to evangelize it you've got to market it you've got to support it
+[1589.84 --> 1595.88]  it's not just code open source is a process software is a process it's not just a bunch of
+[1595.88 --> 1603.70]  bits that you pound out in in vim over over a couple weeks so um you've got to build that that
+[1603.70 --> 1610.66]  thing and then you've got to support it and evangelize it over the course of months and see
+[1610.66 --> 1617.26]  how that goes and uh and that's that was sort of the sidekick model um and then once it takes off
+[1617.26 --> 1622.84]  you build the commercial version of it and start selling it to your your open source user base
+[1622.84 --> 1630.56]  and and there will be a small percentage of people that will upgrade and and so you know it who knows
+[1630.56 --> 1635.70]  how much money that's going to be that could be beer money or that could be enough to make a living
+[1635.70 --> 1642.54]  money but um but that's where you need to start tweaking your pricing you need to start tweaking the
+[1642.54 --> 1646.88]  functionality you know there's there's no right answer here but you'll you'll need to
+[1646.88 --> 1655.26]  experiment but those are the those are the five steps okay so uh a few example obviously you chose
+[1655.26 --> 1660.32]  background jobs and then you chose monitoring are there any other uh pain points that you see out
+[1660.32 --> 1664.84]  there that you know you'd you'd take on if you didn't have you know two successful projects you're
+[1664.84 --> 1669.18]  already when i was writing this blog post i i was actually thinking oh maybe i should give them an
+[1669.18 --> 1676.58]  example of something that is has room for you know exactly this business model uh but you didn't i
+[1676.58 --> 1685.50]  i didn't because um i came up with one idea but i wasn't sure i wanted people to to sort of think
+[1685.50 --> 1693.30]  on their own about it the one that i came up with was uh html to pdf conversion um there's a ton of
+[1693.30 --> 1701.46]  services out there that do that and literally every single business wants this tool and literally no
+[1701.46 --> 1708.06]  open source people want it so what that means is that you've got a very business friendly very
+[1708.06 --> 1715.24]  commercial friendly possible product the the one in the ruby space that i'm familiar with is called
+[1715.24 --> 1727.56]  wicked pdf it's a gem that wraps um the webkit html to pdf uh binary um and it's old and crufty
+[1727.56 --> 1735.72]  and i'm not sure how well it's supported but that's definitely a tool that if somebody was
+[1735.72 --> 1744.10]  kind of more in the pdf space maybe they knew webkit better than i do it's something that people might
+[1744.10 --> 1751.48]  consider doing um it's like i said every every business i've worked out in the last five years has
+[1751.48 --> 1757.36]  wanted to use that tool for some reason or another and generally they would have no problem paying
+[1757.36 --> 1765.32]  you know 25 bucks a month or whatever for a tool which does that and then you multiply that by a
+[1765.32 --> 1773.30]  thousand businesses that need it now you've got 25 000 a month in reoccurring income yeah there's um
+[1773.30 --> 1779.50]  there's a formula that goes 30 uh 30 by 500 and i didn't make that up that's amy hoy's thing and
+[1779.50 --> 1785.06]  alex hillman's thing um but where if you can get 500 customers to give you 30 bucks a month
+[1785.06 --> 1791.38]  you will have a business that makes roughly 150 000 a year you know so if you kind of break it down
+[1791.38 --> 1797.46]  like you have to these achievable uh yet still hard you know it's not like it got any easier but
+[1797.46 --> 1802.48]  they become more achievable once you break it down to these five steps you you've kind of given here
+[1802.48 --> 1808.36]  um and i think your model has legs like obviously it's got legs because you you you got 175k in the
+[1808.36 --> 1813.86]  bank that proves that it that it works well yeah exactly and and the the wonderful thing about
+[1813.86 --> 1820.00]  software in general is that you can do it in your spare time you know you can do it in nights you
+[1820.00 --> 1823.86]  can do it in weekends as long as your employer is is somewhat friendly to you sort of moonlighting
+[1823.86 --> 1828.38]  as long as your employment contract doesn't have issues there of course legally you'll want to you'll
+[1828.38 --> 1834.82]  want to verify that but um you want to make sure you're in the clear long term um but you know i
+[1834.82 --> 1843.32]  wrote sidekick pro and have been working full time for the climb for the last two years right and
+[1843.32 --> 1848.48]  the last two and a half years i was working on sidekick and sidekick pro and bringing in i was
+[1848.48 --> 1853.18]  bringing in a hundred thousand dollars through sidekick while also having a full-time job making
+[1853.18 --> 1860.12]  six figures so you can build all this stuff without much investment you know next to no investment aside
+[1860.12 --> 1867.40]  from some time um you know time is a luxury to a lot of people um but if you've got that you can
+[1867.40 --> 1875.82]  invest that time into you know your own possible future career be patient too i mean it seems like
+[1875.82 --> 1880.96]  you've been sitting on some patience honestly like you didn't seem like uh you were in a rush to jump
+[1880.96 --> 1886.70]  ship and like you know the moment you had success with psychic pro basically you weren't like oh i'm out
+[1886.70 --> 1891.40]  you know it so can you talk maybe a little bit about that and i think maybe jared's got some other
+[1891.40 --> 1895.22]  questions i don't want to stomp on your questions jared but can you talk a bit about the the patience
+[1895.22 --> 1904.86]  aspect of of what you've done sure yeah i mean uh having a nice a nice salary makes it much harder to
+[1904.86 --> 1912.58]  determine when am i going to jump ship here you know my salary is a nice steady flat stream of income
+[1912.58 --> 1920.00]  and then my sidekick pro income was constantly sort of slowly but surely rising up and there was an
+[1920.00 --> 1926.72]  inflection point where the two actually met and i was making as much or more every month from sidekick
+[1926.72 --> 1934.40]  pro than i was my salary that's when i started saying okay how long do i hold on here and continue
+[1934.40 --> 1941.76]  to draw a salary before i just say i'm going to do this full-time it worked out to about uh six months
+[1941.76 --> 1950.80]  about in january about january uh this year when uh the two sort of met and i said well you know if
+[1950.80 --> 1955.28]  this thing keeps going i there's no reason i need to be working full-time at all for somebody else
+[1955.28 --> 1962.40]  when i can be doing my own thing and so you know a couple months ago uh the business came to me and
+[1962.40 --> 1967.94]  said we've got some opportunities here and uh one of those opportunities was for me to leave
+[1967.94 --> 1976.96]  with a very nice severance package and i elected that and uh and and in doing so that severance
+[1976.96 --> 1984.46]  package effectively subsidized the the building of inspector so uh so yeah it's it's it's worked out
+[1984.46 --> 1989.74]  really well um and and if you're patient you can time this stuff so that it works out the best for you
+[1989.74 --> 1996.32]  so i think one of those other hard decisions i mean i'm looking at this as like a viable thing
+[1996.32 --> 2002.30]  to possibly do and i think another place where it's difficult obviously this is a business decision
+[2002.30 --> 2006.94]  is like where do you actually draw the line in the sand for pro features versus the open source
+[2006.94 --> 2012.02]  features you've done this twice now and you probably felt it out with sidekick and i think you're
+[2012.02 --> 2016.82]  probably you may be a little more confident with inspector um can you kind of speak generally and
+[2016.82 --> 2021.94]  then we'll get into inspector details after that yeah that's a common question i mean almost literally
+[2021.94 --> 2030.24]  the first question everybody asks me there's no easy answer um the what i've done with inspector is
+[2030.24 --> 2038.04]  tried to say okay what's what's an a quote-unquote enterprise feature what is a team feature what i've
+[2038.04 --> 2045.12]  tried to do with inspector is is make the open source functionality be the features that an individual
+[2045.12 --> 2050.08]  would want if they were a hobbyist and just sort of built their own server-side application
+[2050.08 --> 2058.02]  without a team inspector pro on the other hand has a bunch of functionality so that you can route
+[2058.02 --> 2064.88]  alerts to different people you can set owners of of different components so you know bob owns the
+[2064.88 --> 2073.36]  database but mike owns the background processing system and ted over here owns nginx or apache or
+[2073.36 --> 2081.18]  the app server or whatever and so that way if any of these components misbehave the alerts are routed to
+[2081.18 --> 2089.32]  the team members that know them best so that's that's one approach that i've taken is again what's an
+[2089.32 --> 2096.74]  enterprise feature what's a team type feature and uh and that's that's really all i have in terms of
+[2096.74 --> 2103.22]  advice it's it's not an easy question to answer and it's just something that you have to judge for
+[2103.22 --> 2109.72]  yourself um i'm i'm i'm i've got about five or six different features that i want to add to inspector
+[2109.72 --> 2115.58]  right now and it's really tough trying to figure out all right which of these should go into pro and
+[2115.58 --> 2120.48]  be sort of locked away from the majority of users that's that's really that's a really painful decision
+[2120.48 --> 2125.84]  to make because i want to give all the functionality to everybody but i know that that's just not a viable
+[2125.84 --> 2136.82]  viable uh solution yeah i'm curious how that affects your open source contributions when uh not just
+[2136.82 --> 2141.94]  okay that you know people actually getting involved in in your open source projects but then also like
+[2141.94 --> 2147.32]  the kinds of uh pull requests that you'll actually accept and then do you decide wow that's a great
+[2147.32 --> 2153.02]  feature thanks i'm going to put it in my pro well i can't do that i mean that you can't do that right
+[2153.02 --> 2160.56]  their license okay so that i mean if somebody is submitting a pr to me um that that's yeah i i i see
+[2160.56 --> 2169.22]  that as their code and when i pull it in it's licensed to me sort of based on the the um contribution
+[2169.22 --> 2174.58]  guidelines but i would not take somebody's code and then just make it a pro feature that's that's
+[2174.58 --> 2180.70]  immoral or unethical uh in my opinion agreed so what if you're what if you're thinking about
+[2180.70 --> 2184.96]  implementing that and then somebody does it for you i guess you just tell them you know i'm going
+[2184.96 --> 2189.44]  to build it myself or yeah i mean that's that's sort of the the discussion that needs to be had
+[2189.44 --> 2195.08]  is um yeah is is there a common ground that we can reach here maybe there's some subset of the
+[2195.08 --> 2199.96]  functionality that we can put into open source that's still useful but i have i have a different
+[2199.96 --> 2207.70]  vision for the way this feature is going to work um or you know do i just close it out right and say
+[2207.70 --> 2212.02]  no i'm gonna i'm gonna put this this is the type of thing that properly belongs in pro
+[2212.02 --> 2221.24]  i i don't want to do that but you know that's the that's the worst possible outcome in my opinion
+[2221.24 --> 2225.54]  something that comes to mind in that uh in that regard is what twitter did with their api they kind
+[2225.54 --> 2231.20]  of said to api developers like don't hang out in these areas these are danger areas these areas are
+[2231.20 --> 2235.32]  okay for you to hang out in we won't stomp on you but these areas are kind of areas we're heading
+[2235.32 --> 2241.64]  towards or things we're doing differently and they kind of like to a degree somewhat road mapped
+[2241.64 --> 2247.68]  what was safe and what wasn't safe yeah i mean that's a that's a great analogy um they've they've
+[2247.68 --> 2254.02]  had to walk a really a really fine line because they're not a pipe they're not just purely a pipe
+[2254.02 --> 2259.96]  for tweets to flow down you know they also want to control the the glass the way that people see
+[2259.96 --> 2266.34]  tweets so that they control the ads that people see and uh and that really has hit their third
+[2266.34 --> 2275.08]  party client uh ecosystem pretty hard and so in your case third party clients are you know prs
+[2275.08 --> 2280.22]  contributions open source developers kind of helping you sustain the open source side but at the same
+[2280.22 --> 2284.90]  time keep it progressing keep it moving forward yeah there i mean there's always a there's always a
+[2284.90 --> 2291.72]  tension there um where you have something free and then something paid on top of that um nobody
+[2291.72 --> 2297.64]  begrudges twitter for having to make a living i know that i myself i would prefer to pay twitter uh
+[2297.64 --> 2304.14]  you know a dollar a month you know a dollar a month is i would be happy to pay and if app.net man if
+[2304.14 --> 2311.20]  they take their uh their their users right exactly um they take their their hundred million users and
+[2311.20 --> 2315.50]  i charge them a dollar a month you know you got a hundred million a month coming in that that pays
+[2315.50 --> 2322.80]  for a lot of office space in san francisco um but yeah i i also understand that a social network is
+[2322.80 --> 2328.90]  is based on the size of the network and uh and the vast majority of people don't want to have to pay
+[2328.90 --> 2335.68]  for something if they can just see ads instead which is unfortunate yeah the hundred million users
+[2335.68 --> 2341.18]  you know drops down to 350 000 or something like that and now your network is is not as valuable
+[2341.18 --> 2348.20]  exactly exactly let's pause the show for a minute give a shout out to a sponsor hired.com is sponsoring
+[2348.20 --> 2356.28]  the show this week and the url you need to go to is hired.com slash changelog podcast again hired.com
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+[2367.62 --> 2374.20]  to four thousand dollars every week on hired uh thousands of tech companies in san francisco new
+[2374.20 --> 2380.98]  york seattle and la uh bid on hiring awesome developers providing the salary and equity up
+[2380.98 --> 2388.64]  front some of their most in-demand jobs are web and mobile developers devops ui ux and even some
+[2388.64 --> 2395.60]  product managers the average developer gets about five to fifteen offers with equity with salary all that
+[2395.60 --> 2401.04]  up front uh and even if you're not looking for a job but you might know someone who is you can revert
+[2401.04 --> 2406.64]  you can refer them to hired and get an awesome bonus as well if they accept the job and the amount of
+[2406.64 --> 2412.76]  that one is one thousand three hundred and thirty seven dollars total leet so go to hired.com slash
+[2412.76 --> 2418.82]  changelog podcast and get hired.com so thinking about contributions i was just looking at sidekick here
+[2418.82 --> 2426.62]  as you're talking in uh 713 forks 242 contributors over its lifespan i would say that the model maybe
+[2426.62 --> 2431.02]  some of that was before you had the pro version but it seems like there was no barrier for people
+[2431.02 --> 2436.52]  wanting to hop in and help out there so that's good were you concerned about that especially with
+[2436.52 --> 2442.38]  inspector i mean it's only been out for a day but you know one fork so far um my my main concern with
+[2442.38 --> 2448.00]  inspector is just the fact that it's using go so that it's a relatively new language um yeah so
+[2448.00 --> 2455.60]  you know monit is written in c and uses i think they're on bitbucket so they're they're just kind
+[2455.60 --> 2460.18]  of in a different ecosystem so i'm not sure if people find bitbucket easy to contribute to or not
+[2460.18 --> 2466.24]  i know that i don't i've never really used bitbucket before but hopefully it's it's on github it's written
+[2466.24 --> 2472.40]  in go it's easier for people to contribute than something like monit but um but also keep in mind that
+[2472.40 --> 2477.98]  inspector is different from sidekick in that it's not something that tightly integrates
+[2477.98 --> 2483.56]  with your application you know people sidekick is a framework right people are interacting with
+[2483.56 --> 2491.04]  sidekick apis their code is running within the sidekick process so you're just you've got a lot
+[2491.04 --> 2496.96]  more moving parts interacting with your app code and so i think it's natural for people to interact
+[2496.96 --> 2506.92]  with sidekick a lot more so i don't necessarily see as much contribution and as much activity
+[2506.92 --> 2511.98]  around uh people contributing to inspector inspector is kind of a black box where
+[2511.98 --> 2519.08]  you install it you set it up to monitor your components and then that's it um you know we'll
+[2519.08 --> 2523.20]  see we'll see what happens that could be completely wrong but that's kind of my feel for it so far
+[2523.20 --> 2530.88]  cool so let's talk about inspector then so uh you said that you had uh monit was a tool that you use
+[2530.88 --> 2538.30]  um not super happy with it but useful um you decided to dig in see how you could make monit better
+[2538.30 --> 2543.74]  and you said two things first of all removing features that you don't need and then secondly
+[2543.74 --> 2550.42]  adding in some stuff that is more modern or that you think that you do need so you may reiterate a
+[2550.42 --> 2555.52]  little bit but could you enumerate a few on either side sure of what you've done so you the first one
+[2555.52 --> 2561.26]  was removing functionality um right which init d you mentioned is a big piece of that yeah there
+[2561.26 --> 2568.44]  what i did with inspector is sort of make the decision that inspector will not start and stop
+[2568.44 --> 2580.54]  processes directly so monit and god and blue pill they all have a way to start a process stop a process
+[2580.54 --> 2589.28]  to set the user that it runs at as to set the group that it runs as all this all this boilerplate
+[2589.28 --> 2594.62]  to start and stop processes and what i realized is that's the job of your init system all of these
+[2594.62 --> 2602.32]  your the machine that you're using exists to run your application your application components are the
+[2602.32 --> 2607.84]  most important thing running on that machine and the the most reliable way you can ensure that your
+[2607.84 --> 2615.40]  components are running is to integrate them with your operating systems init system and that in ubuntu is
+[2615.40 --> 2625.76]  upstart um in core os or uh centos 7 that is system d and future up future ubuntus are going to be using
+[2625.76 --> 2635.90]  system d also so uh inspector defers the start and stop of processes to the init system to upstart
+[2635.90 --> 2645.58]  system d run it and uh launch d you know s10 so uh what i try what i'm trying to guide people to do is
+[2645.58 --> 2653.62]  is to integrate their application components into their init system so that they have something reliable
+[2653.62 --> 2662.18]  that is always there to start and stop these things you know inspector itself uh people shouldn't
+[2662.18 --> 2667.04]  necessarily rely on to ensure that this thing that your the components are started you know inspector
+[2667.04 --> 2672.92]  can crash but the one thing that can't crash on your operating system is your init system if it crashes
+[2672.92 --> 2680.00]  the machine crashes so uh so yeah if you want your components to be up you want to integrate them
+[2680.00 --> 2686.92]  with that init system so when i made this decision i realized that cutting out the starting and stopping
+[2686.92 --> 2695.22]  your processes is a big bulk of the configuration you know every monit recipe every god recipe
+[2695.22 --> 2702.10]  has um four or five lines devoted to how do i start this thing how do i stop it what user does it run as
+[2702.10 --> 2707.98]  all this kind of stuff so that that dramatically simplified um inspector because i don't have to deal with
+[2707.98 --> 2715.36]  that a couple other features that monit had for instance are things like monitoring uh files
+[2715.36 --> 2720.78]  and directories to make sure that they have the correct permissions to make sure that they have
+[2720.78 --> 2727.82]  the correct uh shaw so that the file contents haven't changed that to me is is not something i've ever seen
+[2727.82 --> 2734.38]  anybody ever use um having been an application engineer using monit to monitor the various demons
+[2734.38 --> 2741.18]  it doesn't make any sense to me to monitor file shawes and directory permissions and that sort of thing
+[2741.18 --> 2744.74]  seems like more of a security concern than a monitoring concern correct
+[2744.74 --> 2749.00]  if you want uh if you want something like that you're going to be using either a read-only file
+[2749.00 --> 2756.78]  system or you're going to be using some sort of um ids intrusion detection system so yeah that
+[2756.78 --> 2763.30]  seemed like a kind of a poor man's security thing and and really no reason for it so that's that's
+[2763.30 --> 2768.12]  another example of a feature that i just completely lopped off and had no interest in rebuilding
+[2768.12 --> 2774.72]  so what about the installation story i mean as i said in email i'm a monit user have been for
+[2774.72 --> 2782.50]  a long time i'm a debian usually um you know i can just app get install monit um inspector written
+[2782.50 --> 2788.10]  in go we can talk about that as well go kind of has this great uh story around dropping a binary
+[2788.10 --> 2793.34]  somewhere um how easy is it to get inspector on your machine maybe speak to the the open source and
+[2793.34 --> 2799.40]  the pro versions i i'm sad to say that inspector is two times as heavyweight as monit you have to run
+[2799.40 --> 2806.80]  two commands not one command oh man so twice as many yeah it in inspector i would imagine in the
+[2806.80 --> 2813.82]  future will be integrated directly into the various operating systems package repositories but right
+[2813.82 --> 2819.00]  now it being brand new i have to distribute it myself so can you do that with your pro version too
+[2819.00 --> 2824.84]  though down the road or not uh yes i i do the pro version is ready for people to buy it's it's
+[2824.84 --> 2833.44]  available um it is i run my own package repo that um i control um through basic auth just who can access
+[2833.44 --> 2841.30]  it and uh and so when you buy inspector pro you get instructions on how to set up the repo access
+[2841.30 --> 2848.48]  and then from there it's just app get inspector pro cool so yeah inspector itself is distributed
+[2848.48 --> 2855.74]  through this great service called package cloud uh and they they provide a sort of package distribution
+[2855.74 --> 2863.84]  in the cloud as the name might indicate and uh so the you know you have to run one command to set up
+[2863.84 --> 2872.08]  their repo on your machine and then from there it's just apt get install inspector not too bad not not
+[2872.08 --> 2880.26]  too bad it's as simple as i could possibly make it but yeah i mean i worked for probably a month to get
+[2880.26 --> 2887.32]  debian and rpm distribution working it is ridiculous how hard that stuff is to get working
+[2887.32 --> 2894.38]  was this your first big go project yep yeah in fact uh the reason why it took me
+[2894.38 --> 2901.94]  uh you know four months of full-time work was because that i was learning go and so i would write
+[2901.94 --> 2906.92]  a bit of functionality and then a couple days later i'd read through that functionality and say this
+[2906.92 --> 2911.94]  code is terrible i've got to rewrite it write it again yeah and so yeah i mean i've rewrote inspector
+[2911.94 --> 2920.42]  probably two or three times in in uh all of it i mean i rewrote all of it probably you know two or
+[2920.42 --> 2926.54]  three times uh just because i i ramped up on go pretty quickly but you know it still takes a couple
+[2926.54 --> 2931.62]  months to get a feeling for what does idiomatic code look like um what is a proper error
+[2931.62 --> 2937.28]  handling you know where do you use interfaces and pointers and value objects and all that kind
+[2937.28 --> 2944.20]  of stuff so was that fun for was that fun for you or was that frustrating it was fun straighting
+[2944.20 --> 2951.46]  okay and i make up a word yeah i think you just did it was uh it was fun and frustrating it's it's
+[2951.46 --> 2957.62]  always frustrating because you want to just be able to do something so there's this cognitive
+[2957.62 --> 2965.44]  dissonance as you try to write ruby code and go right um but again it's one of those one of those
+[2965.44 --> 2971.54]  paths where i realize you've got to walk down this path to to get to the destination which is
+[2971.54 --> 2978.64]  being a journeyman programmer not a beginning programmer in this thing and so i i enjoy that i i enjoy that
+[2978.64 --> 2983.86]  process so uh yeah it did take me a couple months and for the first month i was definitely really
+[2983.86 --> 2989.24]  frustrated you know things like how do i take a string and split it up by commas and get an array
+[2989.24 --> 2994.64]  of those strings and how do i convert a byte array into a string and how do i convert this type into
+[2994.64 --> 3000.14]  this other type and you know that's stuff that you rarely ever need to do in ruby but it's it's
+[3000.14 --> 3007.40]  it's critical and go and so that was stuff that i had to learn all new yeah i just wrote my my my
+[3007.40 --> 3013.56]  first production go it's a small api for a customer and uh long time ruby and javascript
+[3013.56 --> 3017.52]  developer so you know you get things ingrained in your fingers you know maybe you have to have the
+[3017.52 --> 3022.52]  docs open if you forget an api but you're not like searching how do i do this in javascript or in ruby
+[3022.52 --> 3029.04]  and i've just found my google search like astronomically increased you know with go over the last month and
+[3029.04 --> 3035.78]  a half um there's a great site called gobyexample.com which if it's like i know how to program just tell me
+[3035.78 --> 3040.02]  how to do this and go he has a great just like here's how you do json parsing here's how you do
+[3040.02 --> 3046.80]  right you know x y or z and those kind of sites are super valuable why did you pick go over you know
+[3046.80 --> 3053.36]  your your bread and butter that's a good question so um so blue pill and god are both written in ruby
+[3053.36 --> 3064.78]  um so i i have always used monet and shied away from them because to me a monitoring package needs to
+[3064.78 --> 3074.16]  be as robust and as simple as humanly possible for reliability purposes and i don't want my
+[3074.16 --> 3080.46]  application written in the same stack that is monitoring it it's that's a you know you've got
+[3080.46 --> 3086.18]  possibility of them both dying for some for some reason you know if your ruby's vm somehow breaks
+[3086.18 --> 3094.60]  well now your monitoring solution breaks too um i always loved the monet simplicity you know the fact
+[3094.60 --> 3098.86]  that it only used a couple megabytes of memory uh the fact that it was just a single binary
+[3098.86 --> 3107.70]  to start and uh and so i wanted that type of simplicity in in inspector what i didn't want to
+[3107.70 --> 3114.94]  do is write it in c or c plus plus so when something like go or rust came along i said well these are
+[3114.94 --> 3120.70]  perfect next generation system languages that i can use to build this type of infrastructure
+[3120.70 --> 3127.24]  without having to deal with um you know memory management and pointers and all that kind of
+[3127.24 --> 3133.16]  stuff directly so uh that's why i that's why uh that's one of the reasons i did it and go the other
+[3133.16 --> 3140.16]  reason i did it and go is it's simply because the language has a really strong standard library where
+[3140.16 --> 3148.76]  i didn't need to pull in any third party packages at all to implement it so uh inspector has no
+[3148.76 --> 3154.86]  runtime dependencies aside from the linux the linux kernel you know it's just a single but it doesn't
+[3154.86 --> 3163.52]  even use libc so you think that choice has paid off so far well we'll see um i have you know at the
+[3163.52 --> 3169.68]  very least i've invested in learning go and become a uh not a beginner go programmer anymore but you know
+[3169.68 --> 3176.64]  i'd say a journeyman go programmer um so in terms of investing in myself you know it's paid off
+[3176.64 --> 3182.74]  but uh you know there's uh it remains to be seen how how well the commercial product sells and how
+[3182.74 --> 3189.78]  well the open source project is is taken up you know it's still early days having been launched 24 hours
+[3189.78 --> 3196.64]  ago it's it's often that um whenever you try something new like this whenever you go from ruby to go
+[3196.64 --> 3202.02]  that you often compare can you give us a comparison of uh what you love about both or what you love more
+[3202.02 --> 3208.02]  about ruby or what you love more about go now that you're um experiencing the the awesomeness that it
+[3208.02 --> 3218.72]  is sure um ruby is fantastic for building a big thing if you can leverage like rails you know you just
+[3218.72 --> 3225.88]  you really can't beat building a website in rails it's still it's still the best thing out there as far
+[3225.88 --> 3232.04]  as i'm concerned i would not want to build a large website and go i think that would be inappropriate
+[3232.04 --> 3241.02]  i think the the ruby flexibility and prototyping speed is still um much faster than goes speed
+[3241.02 --> 3246.36]  where go shines is where you've got something very simple very focused that you want to build
+[3246.36 --> 3254.50]  and you can you know sort of hold the code in your head and just build it out really quick um you know
+[3254.50 --> 3263.28]  go's speed is it goes runtime speed is really um really nice for sure uh running my test suite you
+[3263.28 --> 3268.52]  know takes tenth of a second you know of course ruby can do some of that if you if you structure the
+[3268.52 --> 3274.08]  code correctly but but yeah i think i think ruby has points where it shines in terms of these
+[3274.08 --> 3280.06]  frameworks like rails like sidekick where you can build these large-scale apps pretty quickly
+[3280.06 --> 3287.68]  and uh and go is more of a sort of a sharp focus tool for building uh you know smaller lower level
+[3287.68 --> 3294.98]  things is typically how i think of it in your uh in your list mentioning uh the introduction to
+[3294.98 --> 3298.54]  inspector you've got several things that you you kind of have on the plate that you're that you're
+[3298.54 --> 3303.64]  supporting in terms of like writing alerts to slack hip chat campfire flow doc some of the
+[3303.64 --> 3310.00]  common hit lists of of popular kind of collaboration tools you also mentioned that it's brand new
+[3310.00 --> 3316.26]  it's not 1.0 yeah can you talk about um since it's since this is new and for those listening
+[3316.26 --> 3321.00]  you're probably listening as much as maybe five days after the recording of this so when we say
+[3321.00 --> 3324.96]  it was released one day ago it was actually like six days ago technically depending upon when you
+[3324.96 --> 3331.98]  listen to this but um can you talk a bit about you know this early version not 1.0 version um
+[3331.98 --> 3337.74]  in terms of feature set which you've put in it and like maybe where you see things going and
+[3337.74 --> 3346.04]  and possibly even how um how how actually using go supports some of the the the lifespan you see for
+[3346.04 --> 3355.06]  this so the uh the base inspector the open source version of inspector uh will monitor any any
+[3355.06 --> 3361.58]  service that's integrated with your init system uh it will monitor daemon specific metrics so it'll it
+[3361.58 --> 3367.64]  knows it understands my sequel it understands nginx redis memcached those are the four i launched
+[3367.64 --> 3373.72]  with i see there are tons of opportunity to for people to contribute their own daemon specific
+[3373.72 --> 3381.16]  metrics uh things like um cassandra kafka you know there's a there's a whole world of like java
+[3381.16 --> 3386.44]  infrastructure for instance that isn't covered at all but i'd love to have integration with just
+[3386.44 --> 3393.14]  more infrastructure that people use to build their apps those happen to be the four things that i use
+[3393.14 --> 3399.72]  um that the ruby community uses often but um you know maybe python folks maybe uh for instance like
+[3399.72 --> 3407.46]  celery or or rabbit mq uh would be more examples so daemon specific metrics are in the open source
+[3407.46 --> 3413.90]  version uh what else is there so you're gonna you're gonna monitor your your cpu and your memory of
+[3413.90 --> 3421.50]  your process your daemon specific metrics you can monitor the host metrics things like swap disk space usage
+[3421.50 --> 3429.48]  cpu usage and then oh you can also you can also get an overview of all the status of all the services that
+[3429.48 --> 3436.46]  it's inspecting at a given moment and you can also see a graph of a metric in the console so if you're if
+[3436.46 --> 3442.88]  you're at the terminal and something uh an alert fires you can actually see the history of the metric right in
+[3442.88 --> 3448.00]  your console without having to open up and find a graph or something like that which is pretty nice
+[3448.00 --> 3457.10]  uh now in terms of uh uh the commercial version pro pro has the ability to monitor init d the old
+[3457.10 --> 3463.34]  legacy stuff that ball of mud that i referred to um that's so you you didn't want to do it but you'll
+[3463.34 --> 3470.82]  do it for money exactly exactly i like that that's a good one jared well that's that's a that's an
+[3470.82 --> 3477.18]  example where if people have legacy services if they're an enterprise and and they just don't want to
+[3477.18 --> 3483.34]  touch the thing but they do want to use uh inspector to monitor you you pay the money and the problem is
+[3483.34 --> 3488.72]  solved um yeah i mean part of part of this hard line that i'm having to take with features is trying to
+[3488.72 --> 3495.04]  guide people to to author better applications and sometimes that means i you know i'm not going to
+[3495.04 --> 3500.42]  support the old way of doing something because i really genuinely feel it's not the right way to do
+[3500.42 --> 3506.00]  things now if people want to pay me money to so that they continue continue to do it the old way
+[3506.00 --> 3512.26]  then that's that's their choice but you know i'm i'm taking a stand here and saying that init d is not
+[3512.26 --> 3520.00]  the right thing to do anymore um so uh yeah so init d is supported in pro um and then yeah as you said
+[3520.00 --> 3526.88]  chat rooms for teams who want alerts to be piped into their shared chat room where maybe they've got
+[3526.88 --> 3531.82]  people in the chat room 24 7 that's a perfect example where you can sort of cut down noise in
+[3531.82 --> 3540.20]  your inbox by by directing uh the alerts into the chat rooms and then uh the final feature in pro right
+[3540.20 --> 3547.40]  now is the uh ownership so you can give ownership to various components you can say i want alerts for
+[3547.40 --> 3553.40]  this thing to go to this particular team or this particular person because inspector itself the open
+[3553.40 --> 3561.08]  source version you can only send alerts to a single email address that's it now what's coming down
+[3561.08 --> 3566.26]  the pipe uh yeah i've got a bunch of ideas one thing i want to put in the open source version
+[3566.26 --> 3574.18]  is monitoring cron jobs to ensure that cron jobs are running uh if you have a cron job that runs hourly
+[3574.18 --> 3581.40]  and you deploy your code and that code change breaks that cron job how do you know
+[3581.40 --> 3588.22]  oftentimes the job will just start silently failing and you won't know until a customer calls
+[3588.22 --> 3593.40]  customer emails or maybe you don't receive a report the next day or something like that
+[3593.40 --> 3602.44]  but having having something that that that notifies what i want to do is have a way for the cron job to
+[3602.44 --> 3608.36]  notify inspector that hey i just ran and then inspector will say if i haven't received a notification within
+[3608.36 --> 3614.68]  the last hour or within the last day to fire off an alert to say hey this cron job didn't fire
+[3614.68 --> 3622.08]  let me just say as as a longtime monet user and relatively happy monet user if you do that feature
+[3622.08 --> 3627.26]  i will immediately switch i was gonna say you seem like you're lamenting with the pain like i can almost
+[3627.26 --> 3632.14]  audibly hear the pain you felt from not having that feature yeah i've looked for solutions there's
+[3632.14 --> 3638.12]  some online services where you can uh you know do your cron job and then you know do ampersand ampersand
+[3638.12 --> 3643.92]  and then hit some api that just says i did it right that it actually succeeded and then they'll send you
+[3643.92 --> 3650.68]  emails and stuff if it fails um tried those there's other you know things where you can just pipe it to
+[3650.68 --> 3657.44]  an email address if it fails anyways they all suck right well mine's gonna suck right mine's gonna suck
+[3657.44 --> 3667.06]  just as much oh oh well yeah so in a better way though maybe yeah so so that was one idea i had for
+[3667.06 --> 3672.44]  another feature um you know the other obvious feature would be sort of a web interface to see an
+[3672.44 --> 3678.62]  overview of the different metrics you're tracking and to see pretty graphs um yeah that that would
+[3678.62 --> 3685.28]  probably be a pro a pro um feature i'm not sure uh but yeah anything that's sort of team or
+[3685.28 --> 3692.96]  collaborative is definitely uh going to be lean toward pro things like cron jobs though you know i can
+[3692.96 --> 3699.58]  see individuals wanting those as part of their applications and so putting a cron job checker uh
+[3699.58 --> 3707.20]  seems like a natural fit yeah i'm for it cool i'll count that as a plus one on the issue then
+[3707.20 --> 3715.90]  there you go well cool mike um we uh we tend to ask a few questions at the end of the show but
+[3715.90 --> 3719.20]  we're going to ask one simple question because that's that's the way we're going to roll around
+[3719.20 --> 3725.90]  here but um inspectors new it's you know let's say it's you know barely a day old in terms of release
+[3725.90 --> 3734.48]  um can you kind of give the listeners a way that you're looking for engagement you know is there
+[3734.48 --> 3738.92]  a feature set like you'd mentioned earlier you know supporting different systems debian and and
+[3738.92 --> 3743.18]  were some of the ones that you'd mentioned that you use so you're supporting those are are there a
+[3743.18 --> 3749.82]  hit list that you have a road map how can people jump in and and help you launch the open source side
+[3749.82 --> 3756.86]  and right and uh maybe even how to buy the pro side well i what i would love what i need right now
+[3756.86 --> 3761.66]  is just users you know it's a brand you know it is a brand new project so i would love people to
+[3761.66 --> 3768.92]  download it try it out um i'm definitely not strong in terms of the operating system packaging
+[3768.92 --> 3775.12]  so deb support rpm support i i spent probably a month trying to polish it and get it working
+[3775.12 --> 3780.12]  but i'm sure that there's uh plenty of room for improvement there so maybe some code review on
+[3780.12 --> 3785.40]  certain areas yeah exactly i mean if there's a if you know you got more of a debian guy or more of a
+[3785.40 --> 3796.26]  um a fedora guy uh wants to or or girl for for that matter uh agenda is is not an issue um if if
+[3796.26 --> 3803.12]  anyone wants to come in and uh and help me out there i'm happy to have that uh i've cobbled together
+[3803.12 --> 3807.54]  what i have right now but i'm sure there's room for improvement and the other thing is is just use it
+[3807.54 --> 3815.04]  and and give me give me ideas for features um send prs and uh and remember the there's that demon
+[3815.04 --> 3820.16]  specific feature where you know i want i want inspector to know about as many of these popular
+[3820.16 --> 3828.74]  different application components as possible and so getting uh prs to add more and more of them
+[3828.74 --> 3834.98]  would be awesome so yeah that's that's definitely ripe for uh for some for uh prs
+[3834.98 --> 3840.92]  well awesome well is there anything else that you want to cover mike and in closing before we uh
+[3840.92 --> 3846.58]  take the show out not really i just want to thank you guys for giving me the opportunity to come on
+[3846.58 --> 3852.72]  and and uh ramble on a bit cool well uh we'll have all the links in the show notes so if uh
+[3852.72 --> 3857.90]  uh we'll mention here on the air but uh mparum on twitter if you want to follow mike but we'll have
+[3857.90 --> 3863.66]  some links in the show notes to back to the code back to um your your uh your company site we'll even
+[3863.66 --> 3870.38]  link that blog post that jared mentioned about this uh this fantastic way to have this path of
+[3870.38 --> 3875.32]  success like mike has found for sure so mike thanks for coming on the show um we had some awesome
+[3875.32 --> 3879.36]  sponsors for this show so as you might know not only are we member supported but we're also
+[3879.36 --> 3883.82]  sponsor supported because we work with some really really cool companies one of those cool companies
+[3883.82 --> 3889.90]  is code ship love code ship those guys are awesome hired.com uh and also digital ocean we're
+[3889.90 --> 3893.90]  hosting on digital ocean we love digital ocean and we think you should too if you're not using them
+[3893.90 --> 3898.86]  then i just make a sad face and that's just that's just how it goes but that's it for this uh this
+[3898.86 --> 3904.92]  week's of changelog and we'll be back as soon as you want to hear us let's say goodbye bye
+[3904.92 --> 3905.88]  bye
+[3905.88 --> 3909.88]  you
+[3909.88 --> 3913.88]  you
+[3913.88 --> 3915.88]  you
+[3915.88 --> 3917.88]  you
+[3917.88 --> 3919.88]  you
+[3919.88 --> 3921.88]  you
+[3921.88 --> 3923.88]  you

Keep a CHANGELOG (Interview)_transcript.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,513 @@
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Today we're joined by Olivier Lacan...
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** That was close.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Did I do good? Was it close?
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** You did better in practice.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** I did, yeah... Long story short, our guest is French, so obviously his name is a little difficult to pronounce. I'm here, Jerod's here, and we're here to talk about changlogging, which is sort of meta in a sense... And if you know the voice of Olivier, then you've probably heard it on Ruby5; you're prolific in Ruby and you do things at CodeSchool, so I'm sure you've got your voice out there all over the place, right?
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Sadly, yes. I talk a lot.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, in any case, welcome to the show.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Thank you. I'm happy to be here.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** It is sort of meta, because I've stumbled upon this project of yours which is Keep a Changelog; the subtitle is "Don't let your friends dump git logs into changelogs", which I thought was pretty cool, because you know, we're "The Changelog", and everybody who does open source - or any sort of software really - is to some degree keeping changelogs; even proprietary software has changelogs, right? So this isn't just open source, this is sort of software as you see it.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** \[04:09\] This is what I wish people would do, but I've realized in the recent months as I was actually going through upgrading a lot of old apps, a lot of apps that we have internally, that people actually don't do that. People actually tend to think that their software maintains itself, or as long as they contribute to it, then it's done and you don't really have to do the side work, because it's kind of boring to keep a changelog and actually write down like a journal... Like, "Okay, we did this this week, and that week..." Because it's just tedious, and people would rather be as impactful as they want to be.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, even think about those who are shipping apps to the App Store, like Apple's App Store, or the Play Store, even those apps... Actually, a lot of the developers have a lot of fun with these -- I don't know if they're called changelogs there or not, but...
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Release notes I think they call them...
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Release notes, yeah... But it's still the same thing.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Yeah. I actually have a folder of screenshots that every time one of those developers makes an amazing changelog where they're either really funny or they actually go through insane lengths to explain "By the way, watch out - this is the new stuff that's in this version. You might wanna stick to this version..." - so much thoughtfulness in a few developers, but the rest are just minor bug fixes, minor bug fixes. Improvement. Speed improvements. Bug fixes. All these releases... What bug are you fixing?! Tell me. Maybe I had that bug, and now I'm super happy.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** The issue number, or something. Yeah, "Give me some context."
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Yeah, and especially for iOS stuff, so many little subtle bugs that you could make people happy if you just mentioned what bug you fixed. It seems so obvious, but people don't do it.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** So is there a semantic difference between changelog and release notes? Maybe just the audience? It seems like -- when I think of a changelog, I think of the audience being technically sound, and maybe even developers... When I think of release notes, maybe it's just in the app store, and obviously you're speaking to your end users; it maybe just depends on who your end user is...
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Right. I realized that while I was doing this project. As soon as I put it up, someone came up and said to me, "Hey, so you're calling this a changelog, and there's actually a different thing called History or News" and in the GNU community there's apparently a differentiation between those two. So there's one that's more release note oriented, and I think that's the News... Yeah, so it's the News text file that you leave in your repo; that one's more generally, like if you wanna parse it really quickly... And then changelog, they contend - and I'm kind of not super happy about that - that it's okay if it's just a Git diff dump... And I think there's no value in that.
+
+If we use Git and we can use git log, why would you ever -- you can do the same thing on GitHub; you can do a compare between two tags or two specific release commits, and you will see that diff, you will see those commit messages, and you can go through every single one and how -- sometimes there's just an angry developer going "I fixed this super-annoying thing!" There's this no context, there's no semantics... It's very strange to me.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** So the homepage for this project is keepachangelog.com. If you're listening live, you wanna follow along -- this is a podcast, so you are listening if you're hearing this... But keepachangelog.com, and one of the questions down there says (to Jerod's question) "Is there a standard changelog format?" Your answer is "Sadly no", but you hope to make this particular one you're making as part of this project become the standard changelog file for all open source projects, and I would assume maybe others to follow along.
+
+It's got this idea of Added, Deprecated, Removed, Fixed, which I think is really important, because it kind of gives you a rhythm to follow at least, you know?
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** \[08:14\] Yeah, and this is something that I noticed - a lot of people just say what was added and say what was removed, but they don't say "Okay, was something not deprecated?" Because usually, when you parse things, it's also as important to you to know that nothing was deprecated in this version, and you can safely upgrade. Because if it's not mentioned, maybe it's not there, but maybe they forgot. And it happens a lot in open source projects, because you merge a contribution and you forget -- that person didn't make a changelog commit, and boom, you're suddenly breaking all these installs from people... And it's just a lot of friction and pain that I think we could easily remove with a little bit of forethought.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** I love the dog you have in the background, too. You warned us, but the dog is still there. I might edit that out, but I don't think so...
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Well, he's actually going nuts... He's having fun right now. He's actually never done that before, but I think he can sense that I'm talking, and he's like "Okay, let me screw with him."
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** It's giving your side of the audio a little character, so to speak.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Yes.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** So let me read your definition here of a changelog back at you, and then we can kind of discuss the difference between this and other things that may exist. You say that "A changelog is a file which contains a curated, chronologically ordered list of notable changes for each version of an open source project."
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Right.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** So I'm guessing that -- I'm reading in the tea leaves here that you're emphasizing curation, chronologically ordered and notable as kind of the key differentiators between this and what might be a history file, which maybe is all the commit logs. Is that fair?
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** That's very fair. And I think the difference is clear in the same sense -- so if you think of an API, a public-facing API, when you change things on the API, you wanna make sure that everybody understands what they are; not really the low-level stuff that you changed, but the actual public API stuff.
+
+So the private API stuff is nice to know, it's good, but it's not as crucial for you to know. This is basically the same differentiation -- this is for the outward world, not the people who work on the project necessarily.
+
+The people who work on the project know that there were things added privately, that they did some groundwork for a new release, for instance, but that's not necessarily notable for the people using the software. And I think that actually -- we talked earlier about release notes for iOS apps or just Android apps...
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** I feel like -- I wish open source developers would basically crank up the empathy on their open source end users the same way that iOS developers sometimes do with their paid customers... Because yes, people don't pay, but if you keep such a well-curated list of all the changes, first of all it encourages people to do the same, it makes it easier for people to jump in and contribute...
+
+For instance, I think Haml was an example... I was waiting for a feature in Haml or a feature in Redcarpet, in one of those things, and I was about to start working on it, and I thought "Okay, so it's not listed in the readme, I can't find it anywhere", and I went through the changelog real quick and Boom, there it was. Footnotes were added I think recently in Redcarpet and I was super-excited because for my blog - just little footnotes, and you could do that very easily... And I didn't have to go any further.
+
+Of course, you can improve your feature descriptions on your library, but it's also great for people to just jump in and see, "Wow...!" Yeah, when you jump in a project, you always assess "How well-maintained is this project?" What better way to see how well-maintained a project is than show "You know what - every month, every week, every year we have these incremental changes, and this is all the things we carefully change and add."
+
+**Jerod Santo:** \[12:05\] Yeah, absolutely. I think as a user of open source software and somebody who's written a lot of software over the years, I used to get really excited for every single project update. I was like, "Oh, I can't wait to upgrade, and get this in there...", and kind of as you get scar tissue to the process of software development, and realizing that your regression test suite is not as awesome as you thought it was and there's still bugs that affect you and trickle down... I get to the point where I am very wary of upgrading dependencies...
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** That's so sad!
+
+**Jerod Santo:** But let me just say, a solid change, like a release notes or a changelog that actually provides me the information of "Here's the value in upgrading to our newest release", like high-level bullet points, kind of what you're advocating for here, of like "Here's why it's worth it for you. Here's the new stuff that is of value", goes a long way. It gets me to pull the trigger and say "Okay, this is worth me actually going through the process of upgrading this dependency."
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** That process you talk about, too... To your point, Olivier, you say that you wish more software developers, more open source developers took some -- I'm not sure what your exact words were, but I'll think of it like just making it an important thing to curate (to use your own words back at you) this changelog... And I almost feel like open source developers already have so much on them with issues, and other stuff... I think that as it's gotten more social, it's gotten harder and harder to take care of these staples, so to speak: the changelog, readme, a history... All these files are staples in software, and I feel like it's just more added overhead to deal with.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** It's a good point, and... I think the word I used was "empathy." And it's a difficult thing, because when you're drained, when you've worked so hard - and I know that a lot of people get a lot of flack on their issues, and people come in and just crap all over their project, even though they've worked for years and years to make it... But I feel like in a way if you think of it as a preventive (preventative? I don't know) measure, you can basically "Okay, let me carpet bomb in a way this information to make sure that less misunderstanding and less confusion will happen."
+
+To me, if you keep a changelog and you do that often and regularly, you're actually saving yourself the hassle of having to deal with people who misunderstand or who are having upgrade issues. Basically, you're just saving yourself a lot of time... And it's hard to see, of course, because just writing down little things like that means that you have to take some time to reflect after a release or just as you're about to release... Or you have to find out like "Oh, what pull request did I merge in? Did they put a changelog item?", stuff like that.
+
+But if you do, then you're actually allowing your project to be more lightweight, in a way... Because stuff is written down, and you don't have to worry -- you're not the central repository of "Will this break my software?" The file is.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** Well, let me just kind of -- this might be hard for the listening audience, but kind of just go through your version on keepachangelog.com... Just kind of describe the format that you've laid out, because...
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** This is sexy. Let's read the changelog together.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] I'm gonna do it really slowly.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Should I slow the music down, and everything?
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Mm-hm. Get some Barry White rolling.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Put your bassy voice on, Jerod.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Yes.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** "Markdown format." \[laughter\] I don't have a bassy voice--
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Did you say the word "format"?
+
+**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] Yeah, "Markdown format." Is everybody getting excited already?
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Everybody's excited.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** So you're advocating for a markdown format...
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Yup.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** \[16:04\] The first thing you have -- okay, the title; we'll get past that. But for each changelog entry you have a version number, a well-formatted date, which you have a section all about dates in here... Then you have four sections: Things added, Things deprecated, Removed, and Fixed.
+
+In this example you give, your Added has three bullet points, but they're hyphenated, the things added. Then your Deprecated, Removed and Fixed are all empty, but you don't just leave them empty, you actually explicitly state "Nothing."
+
+Can you just go through the thought process behind this format and why you decided and think that this is -- I know you say it's not the truth at the bottom at the page, but it's just something that you're advocating that people use.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** There's a ridiculous amount -- so this is where we get really nerdy, because every single thing you said, I had thoughts going "Okay, I have to explain this."
+
+The date format is a big deal, because Brits are super -- this is great, I hope you have Brits listening; I'm French though... This is igniting a war; we've got generations of war between us... Brits have the stupidest date format. They put the number, they say 8 April 2014, and they pronounce it "April 8th." It's just mind-boggling. Basically, they have the wrong writing -- so if they write it in an article... If you go to The Guardian and read an article in The Guardian, they often do that.
+
+Americans have an also stupid way to write dates where they put the month, and then they put the day, and then they put the year... Just because, you know, why have a logical order ever?
+
+**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, I thought ours was truly the worst, but you're saying that the Brits' is actually worse than ours.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** It is actually worse. So this is what I do - I basically anger people, and then I say, "No, let's hate on these guys more." \[laughter\]
+
+**Jerod Santo:** You're just tearing us down over our date formats.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Right. I'm just making people -- it's a strategy. Hear me out. So the last one is the slightly international date format, which to us is the MySQL database format, where you put the year, then the month, then the day. It makes more sense, because 1) it's sortable, easily; if you have files in a folder and they're named with "2014-05-31", you can sort that and it will never go out of whack when you're sorting it. So that's one reason.
+
+But the other reason is you can figure it out because it's different enough from the English and the American one that you can say "Okay, this is clearly the year, and why would the next thing be the day?", unless you really have the backwards American way of thinking, and you actually inverse that thinking.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** Let me just say - I use this format personally: yyyy-mm-dd. I use that on everything. It's always just considered the nerdy format (I don't know if it's the international format) because only nerds would use this; people who think about "Oh, it sorts naturally in a directory", which I do think about... And I use that on checks, and people--
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** You use that on checks?
+
+**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. You put the date on the check and you use it.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Wow.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** I like consistency, so I'll just use the same everywhere...
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** I'm gonna do that.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** ...I'm not gonna be like "Well, this is my check context, so I'm gonna switch to American date format" - no, I'm just gonna use the nerdy version. And people here in America - they get mad at me for this. \[laughter\] They're like, "What?! What's up with your date format?" I'm like, "It makes the most sense. You know, biggest to smallest, it's unambiguous..." So I'm totally in with you on your sensible date format. I think we should use it even outside of changelogs... Like, let's just use it everywhere.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Okay. Let's start a revolution. See, you have to make another website, a single-page website like this where you talk about "Let's keep a date format", or I don't know what you wanna call it, but basically that.
+
+\[20:00\] The things that scares me in what you say is I didn't realize, being outside of -- well, having grown up outside of the American culture mostly, I don't know what's super-weird. I just know what doesn't make sense to me... But there are things that I say or do that shock people and that surprise me, because it's just not a big deal in Europe or in France.
+
+Anyway, so the date is one super-important thing. The other part actually is... It's like Heading, so the first heading -- and this is something I've been criticized for and I'm completely okay discussing it, because as you mentioned, it's not the truth, it's just an idea for a convention; we can agree or disagree, we can improve it, to be better.
+
+But the first heading - markdown has pound signs for headings, so header 1 is Changelog. The title is "changelog" just because what if you discovered this file and you have no idea what it is? If you're a beginner to open source and you jump into this text file that says "changelog", "What is this...?" You see Changelog, and then there's a subtitle, a little paragraph underneath that says "All notable changes to this project will be documented in this file." Self-explanatory. I have context now. I don't need to be a nerd (like us) to understand why is the date format like that. Now you know "Okay, I can sort of decipher what's this thing about."
+
+Then I use header level 2 for every single version, because -- well, one of the reasons is that GitHub added I think GitHub Flavored Markdown, the auto-linking anchors on these headers... Yes. Which is great, because that means you can automatically -- if it's parsed as markdown, you can link to the release by clicking on the little paragraph sign that shows up next to the anchor level 2. It's kind of hard to demonstrate.
+
+And finally, there's the third one, which is the groups of changes - the added changes, deprecated changes, and stuff like that. And the dashes are simply because now -- I think it's a GitHub Flavored Markdown format, but a dash makes unordered list item, so it just looks better...
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** I think that's markdown unanimously that they did the star or the dash...
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** You're right, absolutely.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** ...because so many people use that in email format and whatnot, so the idea was to translate from like the normal way of writing words to something you can actually mark up without trying to.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Which is a great idea.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. Or I guess mark down.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Right.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, I didn't realize that the dash also did unordered list; I thought that was just the asterisk.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Yeah, so I'm the guy on open source projects that actually goes and submits pull requests through your readme, and then sneakily changes all the stars to dashes. \[laughter\] I'm that guy.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Your PR is just nothing but stars to dashes... What's up with that change?
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** No, I sneak it in with other things, so people go "Alright, sure... I guess... Whatever" and they just merge.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** Do you ever get your PRs rejected and be like "This was a great change, except for the whole stars to dashes thing you tried to sneak in there..."?
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** So now that it's public, it will happen... But no, it's never happened. Actually, my evil plan worked every single time.
+
+**Break:** \[23:08\]
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Another thing I like about this format too is that -- you know, there's a debate in your GitHub issues for this, to some degree, at least talking about what the format should be. I think there were some other sort of unusual formats that you kind of balked at, and I think it's a closed issue right now... But you might recall that one... Some sort of other -- I don't even know what the file format was, but it was something weird.
+
+I think markdown reads well because you can read it as you would not marked up to HTML, you know?
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Precisely.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** But you can read it just like it would be, without reading HTML. It's just easier to read on its own, but at the same time if the parser is smart enough, it can take that same format, and like you said earlier, put the anchor tags on certain headings and allow you to deeplink within the same document... So it has a lot of added benefits, regardless if it's plain text markdown or actual kind of like markdown -- I don't know what you'd call that... Parsed, I suppose; that would be the better word.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** HTML-ized?
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, no matter how you get the file, whether it's the dumb version text or the smart version parsed, you get the same user experience... Or at least a similar user experience.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Right. So it's portable, basically.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** The idea is that you can have it on your local machine even if you don't have a markdown parser; it'll look fine, and then it'll look even better on GitHub or on Bitbucket or anywhere because they will parse it, and you'll see it.
+
+Again and again, the idea is just try to keep it as accessible as possible. I don't wanna go talk about that right now, or I don't know if you guys wanna talk about right now, but that stems from kind of what my original open source -- I don't know, what's the religious thing where you just go convert people?
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Evangelism.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Evangelism. My previous thing was Shields, and Shields was about GitHub metadata badges, and the idea was, again, keep things accessible, because there might be people who don't use your project who will see it and then just get turned off immediately because they don't know what it's about, what version it's on, stuff like that. So it's the same mindset basically - just making things as accessible as possible.
+
+The format you mentioned is Org-Mode, which I didn't know about before...
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Yes, that's the one... So what was that? Did you dig into it more?
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** A little bit... Basically, it's -- in the Emacs community they use Org-Mode for stuff like this; they use Org-Mode for everything that I think is metadata about the open source project. I might be completely butchering this, but... This contributor talked about it... It's nice that the Emacs community has this, but again, Org-Mode seems so obscure, and I think there was some syntax issues with the way -- I think it could parse markdown, but yeah... Again, make a great case for it...
+
+What I'm trying to achieve is not to please everybody; it's this idea, I guess, that I take from the Ruby community, in a way (because I'm a Ruby developer), that it's great to have opinions, everybody, and I certainly have them, but right now we're in a state that's not good, I think... And I think first we should achieve a modicum of consensus, like just have a little bit of a convention on at least this basic format. Then we can evolve it, if you want, but let's have that first, so that way at least every project you can think of, you can go and click on a changelog file and see what's in it. Sadly, of course, the naming is an issue, but...
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** I like the naming, but you know...
+
+**Jerod Santo:** There's lots of projects that don't have any changelog whatsoever, so something would be a huge step up, right?
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** \[27:54\] Right. So what I encourage listeners to do is basically what I've been starting to do in the last few months - I've put this page up and I've used this page as argument bullets to go inside of a project that I use. Basically, when I do an upgrade, there's a shock and I don't know why something doesn't work, and I say "Okay, let's see the changelog." If there's no changelog, I say "Okay, do you want me to make a changelog for you? This is what I offer, this is the format. Are you cool with that?" and at least two, or three, or four, or more people actually have been like "Yeah, sure. You can do it. Just send a PR."
+
+I think one of the contributors for Discourse, a really great British guy... I can't remember his name. But yeah, if you go to Discourse, they use something to -- rack-mini-profiler. It's this really cool profiling thing that you can use in Ruby apps. Sam Saffron. And his changelog was strange, because it was backwards; so the oldest changes was at the top, which is kind of counter-intuitive... And the date format was a little strange, because he's British; we can't judge, but yeah...
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** \[laughs\] A little jab there...
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Yeah. But again, he's an amazing contributor, but because of his cultural background...
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** It's that one thing, the date - you just can't like it because of that?
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Yeah, but it's not just that; it was more stuff. So if you look at the history of that file, you see kind of the -- what I'm trying to do first is reorganize and use markdown. And people get hung up about markdown, but markdown, as you said, is accessible...
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** It's very portable, yeah...
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Right. You don't need to know markdown to understand what markdown is about. And then the chronological thing was the second thing. So basically, I'm gonna use this as a template for how you would improve an existing changelog and/or create a new one.
+
+I'm trying to create one for a Rails gem called Strong Parameters, which is hugely important to anyone who's using older versions of Rails than the current one, and sadly, it's very hard to find out what was added to this stuff; some of it really is, again, crucial, because if you don't know exactly the difference between version X and Y, then it's suddenly very frustrating, and I don't want that. I want that removed as much as I can, as far as frustration.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** What are the other culprits of frustration? In your notes, or at least on the homepage of Keep a Changelog you've got dumping a diff, you've got these kind of lazy ways to do a changelog, but not do a changelog, that sort of upsets everyone... So what are some of the ones that really get you angry?
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** So the one thing if you ever do a changelog - having a section about Added and Removed is fine. If you ever make a backward-compatible change and you don't put it in your changelog -- that should just be the only thing you put there. So really, if you hate changelogs and you think I'm silly, just put one line for every single time where you change your API and you bump it up. If you use semantic versioning, then I will -- bless you, you're the best person in the world; that's great. But some people don't understand semantic versioning, some people think you follow it, but you don't really follow it... Things like that.
+
+So if you're going to change your public API so radically, just make a little line that says "Okay, now this doesn't work. You have to use this." That's it. That's the only thing I'm asking.
+
+Again, a huge generator of heat and rage in the open source world is that - breaking the API. And you're like, "Oh, there's a new version of this thing! Let's upgrade!" and then you turn into Adam, you just get really sad and bitter about upgrading... Which is what happened to me. Everything I've contributed for this, basically, is fueled by mostly anger, and... Yeah. It's all fueled by anger, so I take the anger and I try to turn it into something positive... Because I was upgrading this old app, and this was happening over and over and over again, as you said. Test suite, green, "Nope, not working." "Oh, why?" That's why. And you figure it out.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** And that whole little kind of... for the listeners, about 4 or 5 minutes back you mentioned Shields, which -- Chad Whitacre has been on the show before; I saw you all do a virtual high five whenever that moved over to Badges... That was super-cool. So that's a cool project, just for one, so just to make sure you know that we think it's an awesome project... And we haven't had you on this show -- I never really knew who did it, I just knew it was a cool thing, and now it's part of Badges, and I think there's an org behind it; they're all kind of collected into one org now on GitHub, which is just good across the board, because it's like the U.N. for badges, basically.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** \[laughs\] Okay, I'm gonna steal that, because that's a really good description.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** New tagline.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** I have a blog post that I wrote about this called "An open source rage diamond", and that's exactly what it's talking about. I like that we went there, because Shields is exactly the response to "Why is everybody doing it wrong?" So you can rant about it and make a blog post first, and be on Hacker News, and everybody hates and likes you, I don't know... Or you can take the approach of "What's the lowest amount of effort I can exert to fix this?" and to me it was -- I was originally a designer, which is weird... Graphic designer, and then web designer, so I have Photoshop skills. They're rusty as hell, but I have them. So I was like, okay, there's this Travis Badge and this Dependencies Badge from (I think) Gemnasium, then there's Code Climate Badge, at the time, which was like a blue badge that just said "Code Climate." I was just mind-boggled by that...
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Because it didn't have any other additional info?
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** No.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, that's not a badge, that's marketing.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Yeah, right... Which I can sort of understand; you're trying to market your business. But... It's kind of like the PHPBB Signature era, you know? Like, "Let's put animated GIFs in all our readmes, so that it's all flashing! Super-cool!"
+
+**Jerod Santo:** That sounds pretty awesome to me.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** No. No, no, no. Stop it. \[laughter\]
+
+**Jerod Santo:** "Let's get them into our changelogs!"
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** People have done that though. It's kind of funny when you put one GIF, and it's just... Okay. You see it at the bottom and it's really funny.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** Well, maybe one GIF per release? Can we get that going?
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** \[laughs\] I think you should make one GIF per release for the emotion the release is supposed to instill in people.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Yes, that's good.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** There you go.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** So there you go. Jerod, that should be your thing.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** I'll open a pull request on your changelog...
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Crap, we're live... Somebody will probably register that website. \[laughter\] So basically, I just made a template. I just made a simple template. The idea of Shields is simple. It's called Shields because of one of the best TV shows of all time, The Shield. You should watch that, by the way, as a side note. It's a great show. The idea is a key and a value, just like we know; it's just like JSON or any format that has a key and a value.
+
+The key is "What is it about?" and then the value is - a simple example is "Build - passing or failing." "Dependencies - up to date, or not up to date." "Gem version - what is the gem version?" Code Climate chose this. I've actually talked to Bryan Helmkamp from Code Climate and a bunch of people from other third-party vendors that did those badges, and I said "You have this GPA thing on Code Climate, which is really cool. Why not put that on the badge, instead of your name?" And he was like, "Yeah, actually we wanted to do that, but we were super-busy with our startup." So now you know why they did that, because it was just a stopgap.
+
+So you end up getting in touch with all these really great people who just meant to do well, but either didn't have the graphic skills to make a badge that looks exactly the same as -- I think the Travis badge was the first...
+
+\[36:07\] So I made this thing and I talked to the Travis people and I talked to the Code Climate people and a bunch of other people (Gemnasium was really cool, too) and I said "Okay, how about we make badges for you and they're all consistent, similar color tones and similar font, and the font is more legible, so people don't have to squint, like "What is the gem version?" And then we make sure that everytime you put a badge on these, we just recommend people to link to that thing you do, instead of trying to use the badge as an ad platform. You provide value, and then we link to you, and people will see "Oh, Gemnasium is really cool! Oh Travis is awesome!" And that took off like crazy.
+
+People started using the original PNG version of those badges all over the place, even before we actually had figured out a sustainable way to make them... So it was just me and my friend, Nick Acker, just making them manually, or generating them manually for everybody... Which ended up taking a lot of time.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** But it's a success story nonetheless, right?
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** And eventually open source did its magic after a year... A few people created APIs; I think we had a Go API, we have a Node.js API, we had a Ruby API to generate them on the fly... And this is what Shields.io is. If you go to Shields.io, you'll see tons of examples of things you can just simply pass a URL to, and it will generate a badge for you... Which is now used by a bunch of services.
+
+And what's even greater is that you can do that for your license. You can show easily what your license is, how you take donations for your open source projects (if you do), and then finally, they're all SVGs - so they're scalable, they work great, you can zoom it, they're easy to update... So yeah.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** So you're trying to bring up a convergence similar to that around changelogs, right? That's kind of the idea, it's like "We can all just converge on this one format, we can all decide that changelogs are important things that we need to try to do well..."
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Right.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** So let's assume that you've talked me into that and I'm like "Okay, I'm a developer, I wanna keep a good changelog, I'm down with this format that he's proposed...", there's still a few things that I think are difficult, and maybe you can help navigate that... The first one being "When do I add to my changelog?" Is it every release? Is it just minor releases? Is it patch releases, is it just major releases? So that's question one - when do you make a changelog entry?
+
+Then question two - you say it's a curated list of things... So how do I decide what's worth putting in there and what's just noise?
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** The first part is every single release. If you don't have something notable, you can say "No notable changes." This is something that I'm glad you asked, because this is something I hadn't really answered yet on the site... So I'll probably add that. So "When should I do that?" "All the time."
+
+It's very unlikely that you're going to make a release, or cut a release, or push a release if you don't have any notable changes. It's extremely rare. There might be some bug fixes, but even those bug fixes you can say "Okay, we had a few bug fixes - about what?" It just takes you just really quickly parsing through... If you're the release manager, or if you're main/lead contributor, it takes just asking in your contribution -- so GitHub added support for contributing.md, that you can add in your repo to say "This is what we want you to do when you contribute, so start here first. If you start an issue, it's linked to it.
+
+\[40:04\] As a maintainer, why not put in there and say "Hey, if you're going to fix a bug, please make a changelog entry. A bunch of open source projects do that. Then there you go - every minor release now has a changelog entry that says "Okay, we fixed this bug. Nothing else was added, so you can be relaxed, because we didn't screw up your thing in the background."
+
+The second part of your question was -- can you remind me? Because I've lost your second part.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** Deciding what goes in and what's not worthy of going into the actual entry.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** I think we discussed it a little bit earlier. If this is something that people as end users will send you packages with poop inside - if they find out and you didn't do it... It's such a simple check.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** Are you speaking from experience there?
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** No, but I would do it. \[laughter\]
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** I like how you went there... Like, "If they send you hate mail, that's cool. But packages with poop in it - bad."
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Imagine your GitHub profile on open source projects had your address in it. Would you be cool with that? Well, that's another issue that may be really creepy...
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Chad might.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Yes, Chad would. But imagine that people could actually send you mail, physical mail, and it could be dangerous because they could put poop in it. Would that happen with this release because you forgot to mention something? I think the poop test is a great test; I might actually add that --
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** I think your idea though of putting stuff in it that breaks it... I'm thinking of -- when I upgrade Wordpress plugins for the site, or different sites that are still in Wordpress, or whatever... Whenever I've gotta bump up that plugin, I mainly don't care about new features they add, I mainly care if it's gonna break Wordpress because it's database-backed, and I've gotta keep this database backup, and if something does go crazy, I've gotta do a reimport of the old database to fix things, or something that gets crazy.
+
+I've had plugins totally break a Wordpress theme, and all I wanna know is like "What is it breaking? What bugs were fixed that might break my theme?"
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Regressions. People are acting as if bug fixes are just this holy thing that never ever creates regressions on anything... But if I knew you fixed a bug in the language parses, and suddenly I update and the language parsing doesn't work for some thing, then I can tell "Oh... Okay, let me roll back. This is probably what happened."
+
+So again, you're lessening the frustration level and you're allowing people using your software who know it's open source - so they know it comes without a warranty basically, in a way - to self-diagnose more easily.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. Release notes is a good word for it, too. I like the idea of the de facto being changelog... The changelog.md even, or just a plain old flat no extension changelog file in there; that's cool with me too, as long as that format stays the same, because that's I think what's been the way for so long. But basically, release notes are a way for you to communicate to those using it about the notable things, as you've mentioned before; the most important things.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Yeah. There's something that worries me with -- well, it doesn't really worry me... So GitHub released something called Releases, and that was about a year ago, I think; there's a blog post for it. And their idea was "Let's be smart" -- I think they were thinking really hard about how to improve that too, on their end, and Releases is fueled partially by Git tags. I wanted just to mention that, because what I don't like about the way changelogs are made right now - and a lot of people don't like them either - is that you can't really base them off releases, or if you actually tag your releases... So you say, "Okay, this commit is the point at which this is version 1.0", in that git tag, which contains -- a lot of people don't know you could put a message on a Git tag. So if you do git tag -m, you could put a message.
+
+\[44:11\] Not a lot of GUIs allow you to see those messages, which is kind of crappy... And I don't know if GitHub and other open source repositories allow you to see that. But you could basically put those entries - the Added, Removed, Deprecated stuff - in those Git tags... And that would be great, except nobody knows how to do that.
+
+So they've added support for automatically pulling -- when you're trying to create a release on GitHub, it will actually tell you "What is the Git tag? Do you have a Git commit or a Git tag we could use?" and if you have a message on that Git commit or the Git tag, it will pull that and say "Do you wanna use that as your release note?"
+
+That's great, except that it's very rare that people actually -- it's even more rare that people keep up-to-date Git tags for every version they release than it is for them to even have a changelog in the first place... So it's a little like "Ugh, I wish people would--" It's asking even more than I'm even asking from open source developers, it seems.
+
+**Break:** \[45:22\]
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** I think we might be kind of talking around this issue that you have on the project, "Why not use GitHub release notes?", and you've got a couple chimes in from GitHubbers - technoweenie, BeeKeepers... And I almost feel like GitHub muddied the waters, so to speak, by having this concept of releases. While there's always been this concept of changelog, why not just enforce that or help lift that up and pull it in too, like they had done with pull requests and merges... They made these hard concepts so much easier, which is why GitHub has blown up the way it has... Because they took what used to be hard to commit to a project or fork it or add to it, and they made it so much more accessible socially. Why not do the same thing for this idea of what a changelog is and represents for a project?
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** It's true, but at the same time I've had conversations with them... So I don't generally work for GitHub, and I just have a few people I know that work for GitHub, and every time I talk to them, it's a really good conversation and I can tell they care. I can tell they're trying to do -- that contributing file, for instance, is a good example of what you're saying... Why not just parse that changelog file and then display it somehow in the open source project's dashboard? In a sidebar, or something. That way, it will be (as you said) easier to do, and it wouldn't add one more entry point for releases...
+
+\[47:57\] But I'm thinking maybe they have a point in the releases -- I think something that I've noticed GitHub doing is just trying to make Git more accessible, in general, for every possible way... And Releases is kind of saying, "Okay, you have tags, but tags don't really mean anything to most people." It's just like, "What is a tag?" It could be a lot of things.
+
+A release is a tag that has a specific kind of meaning... Because you could have tags that just say "Experimental" or "Rails 4", or whatever; you have this little branch, and you tag that. That's not really a tag, actually. It's confusing. It's just a branch called that.
+
+But in this instance, I think you could see tags -- yeah, if you go to Releases on GitHub, you could see all the tags that a project has, and there's not a lot of metadata there, there's not a lot of context. They were basically trying to say "Okay, we know that Rails and jQuery and all these projects have tags in their releases, and stuff like that. What if we just use that?"
+
+So I guess they had a way to do that, and I think it's really interesting how they make it -- the flow of creating a new release as an open source maintainer... Just - okay, you pick a tag version, or you make a tag version, and you target a branch or a commit (a recent commit), you put a title on it... Which is kind of "Ugh!" for me, because... Okay, so what's the title? "A new day"? "A new hope"?
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. And we already know naming is hard, so...
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Right. So you're making it harder on them. But at the same time--
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, it's more that overhead that prevents you from doing it in the first place.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Right. So this is why conventions are useful, because it means less thinking and more -- so what I like about their approach is the Git tag stuff. I think down the line if Git tools or Git itself makes it easier for -- but is more like a three-year vision than a "In six months I can fix this."
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Right.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** If they made it easier to manage and deal with tags, then it would be very simple for us to generate a changelog on the fly, based on the Git tags. That would be, to me, the best possible paradigm, because now instead of managing this file, you could have any service parse your Git tags and generate a changelog on their own and display it the way they want... And it would be portable by virtue of being in your Git history.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, the only time it would be lost is if someone downloaded like a bundle of your files, or something, without the Git hidden directory
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Right. But let's say you could have a little generator with whatever your make tool is, to make your release - you could have it just actually dump an actual changelog file, and that'd be really cool.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** Yup.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** We've gotta find a way... We've gotta find a way. And I'm glad you're on this mission, because you seem very passionate about it, plus - I don't think we got this in the show, but you're into linguistics, so you seem like you've got some passion around the right words to say in the right ways; that's why you used the word "notable", not just "important", or something like that. I think "notable" is an even more clarifying word to what you should put in your changelog.
+
+To close the show out, we always ask a couple cool questions, which we tend to get some neat answers to, so... We're hoping always that you deliver here as well. Jerod and I both, and the listeners are also wondering too, but who is your programming hero?
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** See, I've thought a lot about this question because you've sent me that a little earlier, and... I think it's not really so much programming as just the way to think of "What's the smallest thing I can do, that can have the greatest impact?" Right now, my hero is Aaron Swartz, just because through him so much great change and important change has been affected. I hope I'm using "affected" right, because if I'm calling myself a linguist, I guess that would be terrible...
+
+You guys know, he sadly killed himself I think last year while he was being investigated by the FBI... And through basically just this sordid affair of just trying to release information that the public owns and should have access to... Research, basically. All the public research that is funded by the American government, and you, your tax dollars.
+
+\[52:14\] Being French, it's weird for me to care about this, but there's even less care in France for that... So for me, people like him -- I don't want martyrs, I want people like him who just have passionately tried to make things right, and don't accept that because it's the way it is, then it should stay the way it is. When people say, "Oh, it's the law", it doesn't mean you have to break it, but that doesn't mean you can change it.
+
+If there's a bad law, or Congress is trying to make the internet less good then, maybe you should do something about it, and you could start with a tiny little thing. If you help bolster the open source community by making an open source project that allows for people to see campaign contributions... Or I have a friend called Tim Faust, and he's this crazy, super Excel genius guy, and he's currently parsing through the Texas (I think) gubernatorial, or one of those -- basically, the campaign spending on each parties, to see what parties waste money on... Which is super important information. It's basically civic hacking type stuff.
+
+People like that inspire me a lot. Beyond technical... It's just like, "Okay, so why are you doing this? What is your purpose?" Because your technical prowess is great...
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** I think it's nice when you marry those two - the socially aware to the technically capable.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Right.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** A lot of people were behind his -- and he was a big proponent of the free internet, and the freedom in internet, of our data, data security, data portability... So I think he kind of stood for a lot of that, and I can totally see why you feel that way.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Yeah. So I recommend anybody listening to this try to get a copy or see The Internet's Own Boy, which is a documentary that was made about it... And it's very sad, you will cry; there's no way you can come out of this like "Yay!" But it might actually spark some care for you, and just -- it doesn't have to be as epic or as dangerous as some of these things are. It could be something simple like this. So yeah, that's my hero.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** We'll put a link out to Aaron. And then we also linked out to the video you were talking about... It was an interview of him as a teaser to the documentary; we linked that out in the Changelog Weekly, our weekly email that we were sending regularly; we took a hiatus and we're relaunching it... So if you're sending us hate mail, I'm gonna keep ignoring it for the next weeks, and then I'll let you know what's gonna happen with it, but...
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Or poop mail.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** ...we linked out to that video, because like you said, it's pretty powerful, and I think it's important to just be mindful of at least what his life represented, and then what internet freedom is for us... Because I think he was the cheerleader, so to speak, for that.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Is it the SOPA video?
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** I believe so, yeah. I think he was at a conference and he was being interviewed, and it was sort of like happenstance... But the questions and the interview I think was just -- I can't recall the scenario, but it was a trailer for that documentary you mentioned.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Yeah. It's basically the story of how they destroyed SOPA by just working hard.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** And he just basically ranted - in a good way, obviously; sometimes the word "rant" could be used in a bad way - about his beliefs on why we should care about this and why it's important... And sometimes people just are like oblivious to things, and they just don't see, and then you've got one outlier that's like "Well, hang on a second... There's bright spots here no one's paying attention to, and here's what they mean for us 10 or 5 years from now." I think that's a really important -- internet freedom is important.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** \[56:10\] To give you a quick person to admire that is sadly not dead -- hopefully not dead...
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Sadly... \[laughter\]
+
+**Jerod Santo:** That was backwards...
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Let me just...
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** We've got a linguist on the call who said he is -- just kidding... \[laughter\]
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** So Lawrence Lessig was a mentor of Aaron Swartz, and he's currently running a campaign called Mayday... I forget the total name of it, but basically he wants to create a super PAC to stop -- to basically disable super PACs.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** I've seen this.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Super PACs being big political action committees that can raise tons of money, even though -- basically, skirting campaign contribution laws in the U.S., which is also a problem anywhere else. There's tons of issues with campaign contributions. Basically, if you have money, you can buy enough stuff so that you can get your friends elected to do things like, say, internet neutrality -- meh, not necessarily that important. So things like that.
+
+He's a great example of the kind of spirit of Tim Berners Lee, Aaron Swartz, Lawrence Lessig. Boom. I got three for you.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** Nice.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Those are good heroes. We'll put links in the show notes... For those of you who those may be new names for you; a couple of them are for me, at least one of them - the last one you mentioned. So I'll put notes in the show notes for that.
+
+Another question we like to ask is what's a call-to-arms...? For this project -- so we talked quite a bit about the importance of keeping a changelog, what that means, and what you put in there and what you don't put in there, the right format, and the markdown, and all these different notes of this, but what is the overarching call-to-arms right now for Keep a Changelog?
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** If you're gonna make a change, keep it. That just came to me, as you were talking. So if you're going to try to make things better - because open source developers generally kind of have this urge, some of them, to change the world... Well, what if you make it a little better first, before you wanna change it? Because "change the world" doesn't have a clear angle; it's like, "What are you changing it to? Is it bad or is it good?" So what if you fix a little problem, and then another, and then another, and when you do that, remember that other people can help you and that you're not this island...
+
+I think Shields for me was the best example of that. I was this island. It was like 11 PM, and I was pissed off, and I thought I was the only person who cared, and I wasn't. And because I documented my project, because I spoke about it, because I talked about it with friends, people came in and they multiplied my -- you know the lever effect? Basically that. I was this one guy at the end of a huge stick, and a boulder, and then a bunch of people showed up and we just like lifted this gigantic boulder, out of nowhere.
+
+This is why I'm so excited about open source in general. It's just like, if you care, if you pay attention to the details that you think maybe won't matter, then people will come and help you and make what you're trying to do even more powerful and impactful... So I hope people can take that out of that.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** Awesome. Our next question - and our last question - if you weren't doing what you're doing now, which is working at Code School, and podcasting, and your open source contributions... If you weren't doing all that, what would you be doing?
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Photography. I sold my camera when I was getting into programming a lot, because I had so much stuff to learn, and so much money to spend elsewhere, that I sold all my rigs -- and I had been taking photos since my mom (I think) had a camera when I was a kid... And I've always loved taking pictures of landscapes and stuff like that, but recently I purchased a Sony RX1R, which has blown my mind... It's a full-frame, small format, non-interchangeable lens camera, so you can't pop it off and put another lens in, but it's a 35 mm great camera, full-frame and everything...
+
+\[01:00:11.06\] And I've started doing a thing that I've been terrible at all my life - trying to take pictures of people... So trying to take portraits of people and trying to capture not their good angle, not their sexy looks, not their -- I don't know... But trying to capture their essence, and trying to see -- if I show this picture to somebody else, if I put it on Facebook, for instance, will the people who know this person say "This is so you!" It's a completely different kind of creativity thing that you have to do in your head to figure that out, because you have to talk to people, and I think that's actually really helpful for open source, or just programming in general... Because we tend to do that slightly in a vacuum.
+
+Having to either trick people into trusting you, or having people trust you enough to get close to them and take a picture of them, and have them be genuine to you - that's really, really exciting. I've been doing that -- I've had this Instagram thing... I wish Instagram had public -- okay, big rant... If anybody who knows anybody at Instagram... Okay, they have tags, they have these hashtags, and none of them are available on the internet. You can see my profile on Instagram.com/me, and you'll see them, and you can find them, but you can't have a hard permalink to -- and it's not public data; I know they own it... But please, someone at Instagram, make those tags public, because sure, there's some really crappy ones, but there's something great called "People of Orlando." \[01:01:44.20\] and I used to live in Orlando, and there's so many great people... So much crap from being in Florida, of course, but there's so many great people, and there's this photographer called Patrick Chin that started this thing where he basically goes up to people and asks them about their life, their story, and then takes a picture, and then he tells that story on Instagram...
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Wow.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** I think it's a really cool thing that a lot of people do in other cities... But they're strangers, she's never met them, and they all have great stories. So that's what I'm trying to do, basically.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** I was just checking out their API docs while you were talking, because I'm thinking "Man, you've gotta be able to get at them somehow...", and there's definitely tag endpoints in the Instagram API, so someone could build this...
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** But you have to be auth-ed. So I think Statigram, or whatever Statigram is now called - you can see tags, but you have to be authenticated as yourself. It's not a public endpoint, I think. That may be the problem.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Anytime I get interested in something new -- let me give you a half a second, or I guess half a minute rant... For a bit there I was really into learning about drones, right? So you've got the Phantom 2 and you've got several others... And it's really easy to kind of dig deep into what's the pulse of something going on visually - in even like (I guess) the 10-second video they offer - by just kind of browsing tags on Instagram. \#Droning, \#phantom2, \#pickyourname... Even if you're somebody who's an audio geek, researching a new mic, you can go on there and see... Like, \#bourbons if you're into bourbon, \#mics if you're into mics... And just kind of like look at the tags and get a snapshot of what the community around that interest is doing, saying, using, how it looks in their environment... I make product decisions sometimes based on what I see people using.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** I'm a foodie, I go to restaurants, and I do that all the time. I go to the restaurant's Instagram or I look at whatever tag you can find for that restaurant, and I look at the food, and I see how good their presentation is, and I'm like "Hm, I'll go there." Because Yelp sucks at that. Their photos are terrible.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. The last question we ask -- we do have kind of a... Not so much a hard stop, but we just try to keep it to a certain range here, so we don't lose people... And people don't listen anyways if it's too long... Is what would you be doing if you weren't doing what you do?
+
+**Jerod Santo:** Adam, I already asked that one, man...
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Did I miss that?
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Yeah.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** He'd be doing photography.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Yeah, yeah. So we've just talked about that. That's how we got onto that topic.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Oh, my Lord... \[01:04:12.20\] for just a quick second, I asked Jerod to take over, and I totally missed it, so... Since you're listening live, you'll get this; the people who listen on the podcast will not get that. I will keep my comments to myself and just roll on out... \[laughter\]
+
+**Jerod Santo:** Leave it in!
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** That's awesome. Well, in any case, it was a good show; I think this is an important topic, so I wanna thank you for joining us on the show today.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** It was a pleasure.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Let us know however we can help... You know, we obviously like to keep a changelog on our own, so we're definitely into this; you're not fighting the fight alone.
+
+To trail off the call, I wanna thank three of our sponsors: Toptal, Codeship and Rack Space for helping make this show possible. That's it for this week, and we'll be back next week... I think we've got...
+
+**Jerod Santo:** Justin Searls with Lineman.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Yes, yes.
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** I love that guy! He's the best. I'm so happy.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** That's actually who you were referencing -- or who actually put the... Which one was it...?
+
+**Jerod Santo:** He opened the issue about using GitHub's release notes...
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** That's right, yeah.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** And he uses it for Lineman... We'll have him on next week.
+
+**Adam Stacoviak:** Yes, so we'll probably extend this conversation a little bit there, just because... So that's it for this week. Let's everybody say goodbye.
+
+**Jerod Santo:** See ya!
+
+**Olivier Lacan:** Goodbye!

Lineman.js and JavaScript apps_transcript.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,644 @@
+[0.00 --> 14.78]  welcome back everyone this is the changelog and i'm your host adam stekowiak this is episode
+[14.78 --> 21.62]  number 128 jared and i talked to justin saros about his work on lyman js building javascript
+[21.62 --> 27.64]  apps and much more today's show is sponsored by code ship pager duty and harry's we'll tell you
+[27.64 --> 33.38]  a bit more about pager duty and harry's later in the show but our friends at code ship they're rock
+[33.38 --> 38.72]  solid hosted continuous deployment service that just works you can easily get set up with continuous
+[38.72 --> 43.92]  integration for your app in just a few steps and automatically deploy when all your tests pass
+[43.92 --> 49.62]  code ship has great support for lots of languages test frameworks as well as notification services
+[49.62 --> 55.06]  they easily integrate with github or bitbucket and can deploy to cloud services like roku
+[55.06 --> 62.56]  aws nojitsu google app engine and even your own servers setup is easy takes just three minutes
+[62.56 --> 68.68]  get started today with their free plan and make sure you use our code the changelog podcast again
+[68.68 --> 75.10]  that's the changelog podcast when you use that you're gonna get a 20 discount for three months
+[75.10 --> 82.60]  on any plan you choose head to coach ship.io and tell them the changelog sent you and now on to the show
+[82.60 --> 89.74]  welcome back everyone we got a fun show lineup today today is friday august 1st we're actually
+[89.74 --> 94.96]  broadcasting this show in particular live on five by five we don't always broadcast live but today is
+[94.96 --> 99.96]  it's just one of those days we got to broadcast live so um i'm adam stikowiak i'm joined by
+[99.96 --> 107.72]  jared santo our managing editor so jared say hello hello hello and we also have our our guest today on
+[107.72 --> 113.14]  the show justin serrells justin how are you i'm doing fantastically well thank you fantastically
+[113.14 --> 118.92]  well what makes you fantastically well um i am just really excited to have gotten over the hump on
+[118.92 --> 124.32]  a dozen really annoying things that were on my plate this week after a two-week vacation
+[124.32 --> 129.14]  wow yeah i saw on twitter you said you made it to friday and you were celebrating
+[129.14 --> 135.34]  yep i celebrate every friday yes fridays are good days that we we had our sprints on friday we
+[135.34 --> 141.06]  started going to one week sprints so fridays are good days is that working better were you doing
+[141.06 --> 147.84]  two weeks previously we were yeah we i think the the shortness and the just a fast pace of of one
+[147.84 --> 153.58]  week and it helps us bite-size things better gives us quicker iterations it's really helped us out a lot
+[153.58 --> 158.30]  um helps our planning process i don't know just it seems like we just get through that quicker and we
+[158.30 --> 162.92]  give ourselves breaks you know once a month we'll give ourselves like a a week to kind of catch up
+[162.92 --> 168.40]  and you know three weeks on one week off kind of thing so that's cool man it's been cool yeah a
+[168.40 --> 176.38]  little sidetrack there dev talk well justin we have you on the show uh we were uh to talk about linemen
+[176.38 --> 183.20]  js amongst other things you've kind of been uh maybe a prolific would be the word uh open source
+[183.20 --> 189.76]  contributor um i first found you i think uh because of some of your work with uh jasmine and
+[189.76 --> 193.72]  some of the the testing tools that you've you've put out there so i've been using those for a long
+[193.72 --> 199.82]  time but linemen seems to be um a bigger project that you're you're behind you're uh building and
+[199.82 --> 206.12]  appreciate having you on i thank you i kind of want to kick off the conversation with quoting you to
+[206.12 --> 213.46]  yourself um no that's always a good way so you can defend yourself uh no i have i cannot warrant
+[213.46 --> 220.28]  anything that past me said past me was not a smart guy but we have it on tape so you have to stand by
+[220.28 --> 227.60]  it um you said and this was recently i think you've even given talks on this uh as as recently as was it
+[227.60 --> 233.02]  rails golf 2014 where the title of the talk is the quote that i'll say is that the rails of javascript
+[233.02 --> 239.24]  won't be a framework um obviously we don't have time to go into your 30 minute discussion on that
+[239.24 --> 244.72]  i know you have tons of details um around that sentence but maybe just kind of unpack it for us
+[244.72 --> 249.28]  tell us what that means and why you say that and then how it kind of led into linemen if it did yeah
+[249.28 --> 256.02]  so the the talk is broken up into two parts uh the first half is a discussion about uh application
+[256.02 --> 260.50]  development as it is especially in this era where people are trying to build lots of uh you know
+[260.50 --> 264.68]  whatever you want to call them fat client javascript applications meant to run in web
+[264.68 --> 270.34]  browsers and then phone home to like you know a lightweight api on the back end um so just a
+[270.34 --> 273.94]  discussion of like you know what's what's painful about that if you're using something like ruby on
+[273.94 --> 280.50]  rails you know the monolithic aspect the fact that the sort of community has been uh gradually moving
+[280.50 --> 286.08]  to node.js and ruby gems aren't you know uh quite quite quite so populated then the second half of the
+[286.08 --> 292.60]  talk is like just like a basically like a a demo of how we've built lineman js to alleviate all of
+[292.60 --> 298.60]  those problems with monolithic rails application development um but the the pivot in the middle
+[298.60 --> 305.84]  i guess is maybe what the what the title is referring to which is right rails is um uh
+[305.84 --> 311.60]  really fantastic for a couple reasons and i think that over the course of 10 years what we've learned is
+[311.60 --> 316.80]  that uh some of the things that we initially loved about rails turn out to not be fantastic for like
+[316.80 --> 323.62]  long-term long-lived projects um you know i break up rails uh responsibilities into sort of three
+[323.62 --> 331.00]  categories there's the uh the build aspect right like all the rake tasks all of the confusingly uh
+[331.00 --> 337.60]  task-like things that you have to type rails for instead of rake for um then there's the um
+[337.60 --> 343.62]  uh uh actual application framework that's the the types that you're extending and the active support
+[343.62 --> 347.78]  apis that you can just kind of reach for wherever you are in your app and so all the coupling between
+[347.78 --> 352.52]  your custom application code with the framework code and all the lift that that gives you and then in the
+[352.52 --> 359.14]  middle is just like uh uh sensible defaults that you don't have to specify and then conventions that we
+[359.14 --> 366.04]  all just sort of follow socially like you learn about from a buddy or from a guide um and and as a
+[366.04 --> 371.00]  result we don't have to repeat ourself from project to project and we don't succumb to uh what i might
+[371.00 --> 375.82]  call like accidental creativity right which you see in a lot of other communities where it's like i've
+[375.82 --> 381.40]  got this 500 line long grunt file over here i'll copy and paste it and i'll diverge it you know uh
+[381.40 --> 388.14]  inadvertently um so when i look back on my experience with rails the the real the hardest thing to learn
+[388.14 --> 394.52]  but the most valuable part was was sensible defaults and convention-driven design um the the application
+[394.52 --> 399.92]  framework stuff has a lot of problems uh and the build stuff was really awesome in 2005 and it just
+[399.92 --> 406.74]  has not progressed to to handle the sort of static assets we're building for the web very well um and
+[406.74 --> 411.48]  so what i want to do is just like cargo call the really great stuff in the middle and then apply that
+[411.48 --> 417.18]  to uh front-end web development um and what i'm finding is like in the node community that's like
+[417.18 --> 422.42]  that's that's that's news to them right like they're they're very kind of unix velocity you want lots of
+[422.42 --> 428.72]  different like an eclectic blend of tiny little modules to work with right as opposed to you know
+[428.72 --> 433.04]  well here's just like a default project and then you can just specify how your project diverges from
+[433.04 --> 439.14]  those defaults uh so culturally it's a it's a it's a you know i feel like it's a point of friction right
+[439.14 --> 443.26]  like you got ruby s on one side who understand this but they've they're very much tied up in the
+[443.26 --> 447.30]  ruby ecosystem and they don't want to leave it and then you have like because lineman's written in
+[447.30 --> 450.76]  node.js you have node.js on the other hand where it's like all these people just like don't
+[450.76 --> 455.28]  understand the cultural benefit of that but they do have the technical tasks and tools to to get
+[455.28 --> 462.12]  awesome stuff done quickly so lineman comes into kind of like you said cargo cult what you thought
+[462.12 --> 468.28]  were the good ideas and rails bring them over to the front end um via the command line and give that
+[468.28 --> 474.12]  structure that we so desperately need that we're saying that's that's my hope and you know in
+[474.12 --> 479.36]  practice at uh our agency uh test double where we're like you know a consultancy who builds a lot
+[479.36 --> 485.18]  of apps uh what we we've been using lineman for for a couple of years now on most of our projects
+[485.18 --> 489.80]  and my favorite thing about it is very similar to my favorite things about rails like i can hop into
+[489.80 --> 495.14]  any one of our projects and i instantly know you know how to run stuff how to build stuff how to get
+[495.14 --> 499.82]  the test running uh i know that it's already set up for travis ci out of the box and i can just push it
+[499.82 --> 505.60]  um i i really love that uh if i look at somebody's application config i can just literally see like
+[505.60 --> 510.36]  them declaring these are the ways that i'm not normal so i can understand what's unusual about
+[510.36 --> 514.60]  their build and where their backends are and all their proxies and their server stubbing and stuff
+[514.60 --> 520.78]  is all like you know really readily apparent um in fact if you want to uh kind of broaden the
+[520.78 --> 525.48]  discussion just a little bit behind my tool i i got the chance to finally meet tom dale and
+[525.48 --> 531.62]  yahuda katson person this year and as i've talked to them about their trials and tribulations and selling
+[531.62 --> 539.70]  ember js outside of the rails community uh i feel like they're doing an analogous uh uh uh crusade
+[539.70 --> 544.06]  from from the rails community's understanding of what makes a good application framework
+[544.06 --> 549.98]  to you know no js land or or just to the web more broadly where people are kind of you know
+[549.98 --> 555.70]  anti-frameworks because there's so much framework fatigue on the front end yeah and uh i think that
+[555.70 --> 559.40]  they're trying to accomplish a lot of the same things especially when it comes to sensible defaults
+[559.40 --> 563.62]  and and common conventions whereas my focus has been more on build tools as opposed to application
+[563.62 --> 570.34]  framework design yeah so lineman itself not a framework it's a it's a tool and it works with
+[570.34 --> 577.16]  the front end frameworks that you would want to use whether it be ember angular knockout perhaps all of
+[577.16 --> 581.94]  the the popular javascript frameworks of the day um so it's not actually trying to solve the
+[581.94 --> 587.84]  application uh framework problem or structure problem it's actually trying to solve the build tools
+[587.84 --> 594.38]  problem it's a single responsibility principle thing yeah exactly so i mean if uh when you when
+[594.38 --> 599.52]  you say lineman new project it's going to assume you've got a totally vanilla javascript and css app
+[599.52 --> 604.56]  and and you just want to build it but as soon as you say like well i want to use ember then all you
+[604.56 --> 611.50]  have to do is say npm tech tech save dev uh lineman ember and hit enter and it'll install you know
+[611.50 --> 616.32]  a lineman ember plugin that will kind of behind the scenes totally dynamically without generating any
+[616.32 --> 622.56]  cruft or crap in your project just modify the configuration and the tasks and the order that
+[622.56 --> 627.26]  they run in so that now you're building an ember project um and and it's doing everything you know
+[627.26 --> 631.58]  handle the templates appropriately and so forth uh same thing with lineman rails if you want to like
+[631.58 --> 636.12]  you know proxy back to a rails application our goal has been all along to like avoid code generation
+[636.12 --> 642.54]  but make it like dead simple to integrate with and build plugins for whatever whatever you want on the
+[642.54 --> 646.26]  top of the stack whatever whatever application framework you want we want to be totally agnostic
+[646.26 --> 651.24]  to that cool so if you don't mind i'd like to step back for a second we'll get back to lineman and the
+[651.24 --> 656.22]  features and and the details there i kind of like to talk to you a little bit uh from a consultant
+[656.22 --> 662.18]  perspective i also run a development firm and at test double you know you're making the decisions on
+[662.18 --> 667.42]  behalf of your clients i assume lots of times which technologies to use uh which style of application
+[667.42 --> 672.62]  they actually need right so we've seen this massive move towards rich javascript front ends especially
+[672.62 --> 677.68]  in the you know the edge of the development community um there's lots of problems that can
+[677.68 --> 683.88]  still be solved with traditional you know page based or rails you know application structure um
+[683.88 --> 688.16]  how do you decide when when your clients come to you is it just based on the needs of the app
+[688.16 --> 693.86]  and how often are a follow-up question how often are you doing the rich javascript clients and how
+[693.86 --> 699.70]  often are you still doing traditional apps that's a great question i think that um there's really a
+[699.70 --> 704.34]  third category too when you try to break down percentages of how we work uh there's a third
+[704.34 --> 710.26]  category too which is like client already has a system and they need they need help and uh we're
+[710.26 --> 715.28]  you know i think very pragmatic because what we want to be doing is uh build trust with the client by
+[715.28 --> 721.80]  meeting them where they are um uh and to choose our battles to choose to like you know take a stand only
+[721.80 --> 726.04]  where making a change from their perspective is going to like you know they're going to appreciably
+[726.04 --> 730.72]  benefit somehow so sometimes like we're we're working in really eclectic and weird you know
+[730.72 --> 736.88]  environments and we're totally cool with that because uh if it's solving the problem uh as well
+[736.88 --> 740.28]  and as efficiently as possible and it's in a way that's copacetic with the client wants that's great
+[740.28 --> 746.26]  but now to your question of like greenfield apps that we're just building most important thing to me
+[746.26 --> 752.90]  is to understand uh what are they trying to get out of the out of the application is is user experience
+[752.90 --> 757.78]  really important like if they want to have a really fantastic tight crisp enjoyable user experience
+[757.78 --> 761.20]  because somebody's going to be in this application all day long maybe working out of it or maybe
+[761.20 --> 765.96]  uh on the other end of the spectrum like it's a public facing application they want to be really
+[765.96 --> 771.26]  sexy and convert a lot of users and build a lot of affect and loyalty then it starts to sound
+[771.26 --> 775.06]  like rich client might make a lot of sense because anything happening locally in your browser is a much
+[775.06 --> 780.20]  tighter feedback loop and you have a lot more kind of ux uh tricks in your toolbox but on the other
+[780.20 --> 784.70]  you know on the other hand if what they need is like they don't have a lot of money uh they they
+[784.70 --> 788.82]  don't have a lot that maybe they'll have a handful of users and it's a it's a seldom used app
+[788.82 --> 795.42]  front-end application development like with javascript is like significantly more expensive and i think that
+[795.42 --> 800.86]  some people don't acknowledge that because they're so busy trying to sell browser as the runtime
+[800.86 --> 804.96]  everything's going this way but you have to acknowledge like it's doing a lot more work like
+[804.96 --> 809.70]  a back-end rails app it's like a specification of the user interface we're just rendering some html the
+[809.70 --> 814.36]  browser's actually doing the ui programming but like introducing a fat client application is just
+[814.36 --> 818.10]  like a much more expensive thing because now you're building two things you're building an api application
+[818.10 --> 824.98]  and you're building a fat client user interface application um and and i try to be as cognizant of
+[824.98 --> 829.42]  the cost of that as possible in spite of the fact that i'm super duper excited about all the cool
+[829.42 --> 835.86]  stuff you can do on the front end yeah i think i fall in that that that same category where um you
+[835.86 --> 839.82]  know depends obviously on the customer's needs and on the actual business goals of the application that
+[839.82 --> 845.04]  they're building and their budget and all sorts of things like that um oftentimes what i find is a
+[845.04 --> 853.24]  very simple traditional web application um can serve companies quite well at first and then and you
+[853.24 --> 857.80]  just kind of sprinkle in the javascript you know the interactions here you know make this uh do that
+[857.80 --> 864.54]  fancy thing um maybe have some ajax based stuff but still doing the traditional style and then over
+[864.54 --> 869.68]  time it gets to the point where they just keep asking for more and more and more of that to where
+[869.68 --> 875.62]  even if you've been pretty diligent which i try to be with the the uh structure of the javascript
+[875.62 --> 881.68]  side of the application which has been growing in line count right yep it gets a certain point where it
+[881.68 --> 887.76]  becomes not unmaintainable but just not as efficient as if this would be you know an ember
+[887.76 --> 893.14]  app with a with an api um do you guys the worst part of the worst part about that yeah the worst
+[893.14 --> 900.10]  part about that particular phenomenon right is that um let me phrase it this way going back to sort
+[900.10 --> 905.38]  of because uh um was it adam you mentioned that you just moved to one week sprints we were talking
+[905.38 --> 911.24]  about like agile stuff right so one of the one of the one of my favorite agile dogmas is uh when you
+[911.24 --> 915.38]  pull a story card and you're trying to implement it do the simplest thing that could possibly work
+[915.38 --> 922.80]  right um i think a lot of agile teams fall into this trap of uh equating simplest with quickest to
+[922.80 --> 929.86]  get done right and so that's the truth for sure so quickest to get done is let's just spin up a rails
+[929.86 --> 935.44]  app put a view on there and then you know maybe iteration two three four we start sprinkling on
+[935.44 --> 940.36]  unstructured javascript and sort of like the you know the the the front end equivalent of like one
+[940.36 --> 948.06]  gigantic main method that we kind of like tease apart in an ad hoc fashion um the the problem with
+[948.06 --> 953.98]  what i call like the simple the simple trap is you're kind of going up this complexity hill
+[953.98 --> 959.12]  in a monolithic way uh in a totally unstructured way from the front end perspective and then all
+[959.12 --> 963.44]  of a sudden you'll reach a point where it's just like you can't go any further and they want features
+[963.44 --> 967.72]  that would demand of a fat client front end app like maybe it's a graphing tool and they want zoom
+[967.72 --> 972.60]  and filter and all this stuff that you can't possibly rasterize on the back end uh there's no
+[972.60 --> 976.50]  there's a huge chasm there there's no logical way to take the stuff that you've already built
+[976.50 --> 982.88]  and iterate further to where they need to go you have to you have to break that monolith up now
+[982.88 --> 988.70]  and and do some amount of rework and and build a new thing and breaking it up is really hard and and
+[988.70 --> 992.82]  rework is really hard especially if somebody else is paying you for it and you're the one who
+[992.82 --> 998.42]  recommended them that they go down that path in the first place so of the greenfield apps what do
+[998.42 --> 1003.70]  you give me that percentage breakdown obviously just ballpark it uh new projects how how many are fat
+[1003.70 --> 1015.38]  clients of our new of our new projects um probably two-thirds fat client one-third uh uh all back end
+[1015.38 --> 1022.74]  just like a api to a uh well what do you know back end well i guess as i think about it i'm trying
+[1022.74 --> 1028.86]  to think like when was the last time we had a client who who actually engaged us for a traditional like
+[1028.86 --> 1037.62]  rails view layer yeah um i think maybe a fair percentage would be to say like 50 50 fat client
+[1037.62 --> 1043.80]  web being 50 and then the other 50 being a combination of just uh like device integration network
+[1043.80 --> 1049.74]  integration all back end services and also maybe a little bit of rail traditional rails crud um but
+[1049.74 --> 1053.22]  we don't see a lot of traditional rails crud anymore because i think that the skills have commoditized
+[1053.22 --> 1059.74]  a bit uh and it's you know a lot of people can get by just fine on that stuff without needing to call
+[1059.74 --> 1065.88]  for help right cool interesting stuff i think you know those those decisions obviously as developers
+[1065.88 --> 1070.90]  or as consultants whatever role we play we're making these decisions on which way do i go so now let's get
+[1070.90 --> 1077.14]  back into lineman let's assume you know i'm convinced i need a javascript fat client lineman looks cool
+[1077.14 --> 1082.42]  lineman says that its mission statement is to make fat client javascript web applications as easy to
+[1082.42 --> 1087.46]  build as traditional server-side html web applications that's your guys's goal so what are the killer
+[1087.46 --> 1098.94]  features what makes lineman awesome to work with so um caveat of uh when you're the person who built the
+[1098.94 --> 1104.60]  thing you you you you use the thing differently than than anyone else will use the thing my usage
+[1104.60 --> 1110.54]  patterns of lineman are probably very different than uh most of our users but so i can only really
+[1110.54 --> 1114.00]  speak for myself because i'm not very good at marketing this thing i spent like a year and a
+[1114.00 --> 1120.18]  half to to build that talk that you referenced at rails conf um my usage is i really like rapid
+[1120.18 --> 1124.98]  prototyping new ideas quickly right so like i previously have been using rails for rapid prototyping
+[1124.98 --> 1129.50]  but when it came to javascript interactions i love being able to say lineman new foo create a new
+[1129.50 --> 1134.08]  project i got to build already and i can just start start writing code and it's immediately showing up
+[1134.08 --> 1140.04]  in a browser um i like the consistency from project to project when we're all building lineman applications
+[1140.04 --> 1146.70]  i like that we can take a common bit of uh one of our uh the biggest lineman users is rackspace um so
+[1146.70 --> 1151.18]  there's a group at rackspace that's doing internal tooling and one of the cool things that they can do is
+[1151.18 --> 1155.26]  they have like a sort of standard stack of lineman plugins and lineman actually supports meta plugins
+[1155.26 --> 1159.98]  too so you could say like make a plugin called lineman rackspace and all it represents is like
+[1159.98 --> 1164.38]  pulling in all of the plugins that it depends on at the versions that they specify and maybe any sort
+[1164.38 --> 1168.68]  of deviations and configuration so you could literally as like an organization just settle on
+[1168.68 --> 1174.90]  like this is our default you know initial project stack um and be off to the races on a new project in
+[1174.90 --> 1181.06]  like two command lines um the other thing the other kind of half to the equation other than the
+[1181.06 --> 1186.44]  like what lineman doesn't do like unlike yeoman it doesn't generate a whole bunch of garbage into
+[1186.44 --> 1190.64]  your project that you can't tease out later can't upgrade later or have to deal with you know a
+[1190.64 --> 1200.30]  community that's not supporting your your your uh bootstrap nonsense um the other thing that that i
+[1200.30 --> 1205.02]  think is really great about lineman is that you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater
+[1205.02 --> 1210.30]  from a server-side perspective like if i'm building a rails application um and i just want to you know
+[1210.30 --> 1215.10]  do the next major feature on a standalone page as a lineman application that would be a fat client
+[1215.10 --> 1219.82]  javascript application i can build that lineman application at in a world where that's the only
+[1219.82 --> 1224.08]  thing that exists totally separately totally physically divorced but then lineman has features
+[1224.08 --> 1228.42]  to proxy back to the rails application easily so like any request that lineman doesn't know how to
+[1228.42 --> 1234.44]  handle it'll just phone home to rails um and uh that way you can develop against lineman's port but
+[1234.44 --> 1239.50]  still be inside of your rails application and get all of the benefit without having to completely
+[1239.50 --> 1245.60]  redesign your rails application to be completely just like you know api uh api only uh or divorced
+[1245.60 --> 1251.12]  from any hint of erb or or templates that drop in little javascript variables so you can get up and
+[1251.12 --> 1256.12]  running on almost any project immediately even if it's a long-standing existing one it's not only
+[1256.12 --> 1261.12]  for greenfield projects so do you just check that code into your main app then or do you have
+[1261.12 --> 1267.02]  do you keep separate repositories or either i guess either it depends on you know a person's priorities uh
+[1267.02 --> 1273.16]  if the if the team is already uh figured out cracked the nut on how to do deployments well with multiple
+[1273.16 --> 1278.04]  repos at multiple versions then this is just another repo uh and just like you'd probably put
+[1278.04 --> 1284.02]  your iphone or android application in a separate repo um it can make sense to put your fat client
+[1284.02 --> 1287.16]  javascript application in a separate repo because at the end of the day that's all it is it's just
+[1287.16 --> 1292.38]  another client to your api but i think for most people especially right out the gate um because
+[1292.38 --> 1296.42]  versioning is extra hard and because the deployment story can be more more complex just
+[1296.42 --> 1303.72]  adding that to your repo as like a another root directory is probably a okay um and then on the
+[1303.72 --> 1308.48]  the benefit of doing it that way too is that we have a gem for rails called rails lineman that you just
+[1308.48 --> 1313.26]  you merely install the gem and tell it where your lineman app is and then whenever you run rake assets
+[1313.26 --> 1318.16]  pre-compile like as part of your deploy it'll actually do a lineman build sneakily shove that into
+[1318.16 --> 1321.20]  your public assets directory and so you don't have to configure it but you actually get
+[1321.20 --> 1328.42]  kind of get all of lineman's assets for free without having to think let's pause the show for
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+[1377.68 --> 1385.56]  so you mentioned yeoman briefly and it seems like if lineman had a competitor it would be yeoman
+[1385.56 --> 1392.60]  both tools trying to provide you know help for front-end projects um yeoman is a combination of
+[1392.60 --> 1397.30]  yo which i believe and you can correct me if i got details wrong but this is a scaffold generator a
+[1397.30 --> 1404.72]  code generator grunt which is the the the task runner and then bauer i believe is or the dependency
+[1404.72 --> 1411.46]  management of some kind i think it's bauer um how does lyman compare to yeoman uh pros and cons of
+[1411.46 --> 1418.30]  either side um we have a a table up uh at linemanjs.com where i spent some time answering specific
+[1418.30 --> 1423.80]  questions from the community about this and i wish i had in front of me um so so go to linemanjs.com
+[1423.80 --> 1429.82]  check out the table for probably better answers than this um but my um my off-the-cuff reaction is
+[1429.82 --> 1439.02]  that yeoman misses some opportunities that lineman seized upon and it it does some things that i think
+[1439.02 --> 1446.04]  are very attractive for adoption purposes but but long term have a poisonous effect on on the
+[1446.04 --> 1451.96]  sustainability of projects one of the opportunities that it failed to realize is that there is a higher
+[1451.96 --> 1459.18]  order concern than simply running tasks a build is really you know like a its own domain model it
+[1459.18 --> 1463.64]  runs tasks but it has to figure out the order and when and how to do it in the in a way that's like
+[1463.64 --> 1469.88]  maybe you know um iterative like if like say only one file changes just compile that one file and find
+[1469.88 --> 1474.34]  a way to graft it in as opposed to rebuild everything on every single file change right so there's a whole
+[1474.34 --> 1478.08]  bunch of build responsibilities that they just kind of left on the table that something like joe
+[1478.08 --> 1487.08]  lissa's broccoli tool was built to be um the other aspect uh uh that that stands to me about yeoman that
+[1487.08 --> 1493.82]  really bothers me is that it's got all of these community driven generators uh for you like they've
+[1493.82 --> 1500.16]  got this website that's like you know pick which of the 15 bootstrap three generators you want if you
+[1500.16 --> 1505.90]  want to pull like start a bootstrap project or if you want to start this project here and some of them
+[1505.90 --> 1510.50]  are in total disarray some of them are relatively maintained some of them are maintained but they
+[1510.50 --> 1516.22]  actually have like very weird or or incongruent opinions about how to do things well um but all
+[1516.22 --> 1522.02]  of them just generate a lot of cruft that you then have to commit into your repository uh and when you do
+[1522.02 --> 1529.72]  that if you need to upgrade later maybe none almost none of those generators have clear sane upgrade
+[1529.72 --> 1533.98]  paths so it's like you're making a project and it's like at this point in time this project will and
+[1533.98 --> 1538.42]  forever will be you know tied to this version of this one particular tool because we chose to
+[1538.42 --> 1546.06]  you know uh get the convenience of an easy quick start um uh with without you know having to have
+[1546.06 --> 1550.30]  paid the cost for a tool that sort of like embedded conventions for us it just sort of handed all this
+[1550.30 --> 1555.00]  stuff um and that really that really bums me out because when i see that there's not a lot of help
+[1555.00 --> 1560.44]  i can do for people other than recommend that they start fresh yeah i've used yeoman a little bit for a
+[1560.44 --> 1564.88]  few small angular apps and i can definitely those statements resonate with me i found your table by
+[1564.88 --> 1570.90]  the way so just a few other things here that you missed uh you provide html5 push state simulator
+[1570.90 --> 1578.78]  built in um i think really the big differentiator from my perspective is the testing story so lyman
+[1578.78 --> 1584.34]  seems to provide for those interested in in writing tests for their javascript which is a pretty good
+[1584.34 --> 1590.78]  idea if you ask me um you have a test runner you have api stubbing and stuff like that um so that
+[1590.78 --> 1596.54]  you can so you can easily get started testing can you talk about the how the test runner works yeah so
+[1596.54 --> 1602.86]  the the test runner that we use is called testum uh and it was written by a uh a great developer down
+[1602.86 --> 1609.24]  i think he's in atlanta his name is toby ho and uh testum is a test runner that was written to be
+[1609.24 --> 1615.00]  completely agnostic of the test library so you can use testum with uh uh almost anything you can use
+[1615.00 --> 1620.54]  it with obviously q unit jasmine and mocha the big three uh you could use it with casper you could use
+[1620.54 --> 1628.06]  it with with with almost anything you want on on the library end uh and then on the other end it it's
+[1628.06 --> 1632.78]  able to capture lots of different browser environments with a little tiny script and some
+[1632.78 --> 1640.42]  socket io uh so you can easily run uh your tests in any browser you like like uh uh you know whether
+[1640.42 --> 1645.40]  that's ie safari firefox or or what have you or or mobile browsers or different devices on your network
+[1645.40 --> 1652.40]  if you have a device lab and so forth and uh it does all of this with a very sexy uh n curses like
+[1652.40 --> 1658.30]  terminal ui that lets you um like you know arrow between the different the different user agents that
+[1658.30 --> 1662.76]  are running your tests you can see how the uh error messages might differ from one to the next
+[1662.76 --> 1670.44]  um and then it sort of ties a bow around all that with a very nice uh ci mode so this is all the
+[1670.44 --> 1674.64]  interactive mode but in the ci mode it'll run under phantom js and it'll give you you know any format
+[1674.64 --> 1678.70]  you want like whether you want the j unit style xml formatting or whether you want tap formatting
+[1678.70 --> 1684.54]  uh so that you can you know aggregate those results in your ci system uh so testum is really like
+[1684.54 --> 1690.00]  they toby did 100 of the heavy lifting there what lyman does just like it does with all of its grunt
+[1690.00 --> 1694.20]  tasks that it runs and everything else is it just provides a default configuration that just works
+[1694.20 --> 1701.12]  out of the box um and and this is maybe a little selfish but i also shove all of my um uh jasmine
+[1701.12 --> 1705.08]  test helpers that i've built over the years into your helpers directory for you right off the gate
+[1705.08 --> 1709.76]  um and i do that because i use them and i was sick of downloading them but hopefully you know people
+[1709.76 --> 1714.96]  find some benefit from that as well cool yeah that leads me to my next question because uh you know
+[1714.96 --> 1720.10]  talk about downloading uh helpers and whatnot the other but another big differentiator yeoman the
+[1720.10 --> 1724.60]  third part of that would be bauer which is you know it's not really dependency management but it's
+[1724.60 --> 1730.68]  a downloader so to speak um lyman seems to just completely punt on package management it's true
+[1730.68 --> 1737.34]  yeah is that purposeful or it is purpose you got tired it's uh it's very intentional and i think that
+[1737.34 --> 1742.86]  it's uh a couple years ago now i wrote a blog post called unrequired love about required js
+[1742.86 --> 1749.50]  um and how i think that in open source my goal has always been to identify areas of pain
+[1749.50 --> 1755.76]  and then think really hard about why am i feeling that pain and then and then sit and then think
+[1755.76 --> 1760.24]  really hard again and then eventually start writing tools to alleviate that pain somewhat
+[1760.24 --> 1766.74]  and i feel like the obsession with front-end package management tools whether it's require or browserify
+[1766.74 --> 1771.42]  or to the extent that people use bauer as a dependency management tool when i agree with you it's not
+[1771.42 --> 1777.64]  really it's more like a very fancy downloader right um what i worry is that they're identifying the pain
+[1777.64 --> 1781.66]  of i've got all of these third-party scripts everywhere but then they they apply the wrong
+[1781.66 --> 1785.00]  prescription which is let's give me something to manage all of these third-party scripts
+[1785.00 --> 1790.12]  when a better prescription would be let's write leaner meaner applications that don't you know
+[1790.12 --> 1793.82]  that are architected well enough that we can solve a lot more of our own problems without
+[1793.82 --> 1799.88]  immediately leaning on a bajillion you know shitty javascript plugins everywhere um and
+[1799.88 --> 1805.26]  also from the from the from the app code perspective where you know there's a lot of people who are
+[1805.26 --> 1812.34]  using packaging tools to kind of organize and require uh explicitly their own code uh uh you know
+[1812.34 --> 1816.52]  like say like i've got a model that my view wants to use i require that model from that view
+[1816.52 --> 1820.92]  there's nothing wrong with that it's just it's not built into javascript it's not you know part of the
+[1820.92 --> 1824.90]  language it's not something the browsers understand yet and so you're kind of marrying yourself to this
+[1824.90 --> 1830.74]  one-off implementation that will probably look silly two three four years from now um when you
+[1830.74 --> 1834.82]  could just solve it the way that you know by respecting what a javascript web application really
+[1834.82 --> 1841.20]  is which is the you know it is equivalent to the concatenation of all of its listings so just know
+[1841.20 --> 1846.76]  how to concatenate it right and then you're done and better yet write code that is order agnostic
+[1846.76 --> 1850.96]  and design systems that don't matter what order you load stuff in so then you don't have to even
+[1850.96 --> 1855.86]  worry about what order it gets concatenated in um those are the ways that we've tried to solve those
+[1855.86 --> 1862.34]  problems now people like to use bauer we have a lineman bauer uh extension um that that you can use
+[1862.34 --> 1868.26]  with lineman but i personally have been frustrated by it for for a lot of reasons one is that it it
+[1868.26 --> 1874.70]  by default will go and grab master of your github repo and that's not a release right it's got a
+[1874.70 --> 1879.92]  version probably in a file somewhere uh but it's it's going to be divergent from the release which
+[1879.92 --> 1883.36]  has caused a bunch of my friends who maintain libraries to freak out because now they're
+[1883.36 --> 1887.14]  getting all these issues filed against stuff that's happening in master when people are just
+[1887.14 --> 1895.00]  grabbing the wrong artifact uh it encourages organ uh like open source maintainers to start committing
+[1895.00 --> 1898.88]  generated artifacts and then track that separately so then the source of truth of like it is just
+[1898.88 --> 1905.50]  counter diversion control in my opinion um and then the worst part kind of belies your first statement
+[1905.50 --> 1909.30]  which is well it's not a dependency management tool it's a downloader like the fact that it
+[1909.30 --> 1913.26]  seems like a dependency management tool gives everyone a false sense of confidence that it's doing
+[1913.26 --> 1919.88]  things like you know negotiating uh version conflicts and transitive dependencies uh uh you know that
+[1919.88 --> 1925.56]  that every single time you download a specific version of a dependency you're getting exactly the
+[1925.56 --> 1931.44]  same one like you would be from npm or from ruby gems you're not and so those people using bower are
+[1931.44 --> 1935.58]  like well don't commit your your vendor dependencies because you have a bower like part of your build
+[1935.58 --> 1940.22]  will just pull those in and then you'll do a build and then they'll just be kind of transient um
+[1940.22 --> 1945.78]  it's it seems totally backwards to me that yeoman on one hand will generate all of this cruft that is
+[1945.78 --> 1951.18]  literally your application forever uh that you don't need and that you can't upgrade uh uh and then
+[1951.18 --> 1956.34]  on the other hand not commit the actual stuff that's like literally your runtime the system
+[1956.34 --> 1961.80]  that you're building uh that that isn't controlled by you shouldn't be controlled by you so i feel like
+[1961.80 --> 1967.30]  it's just coming at a lot of these issues from diametrically opposed perspectives yeah
+[1967.30 --> 1973.88]  yeah and so what do you do then you just like w get the file into a vendor and then you just
+[1973.88 --> 1981.08]  i mean just old school style old school man yeah it it you know if it if it doesn't hurt if it's
+[1981.08 --> 1985.50]  not broke don't fix it i i just have not run into the problems of scale that some other people i've
+[1985.50 --> 1989.66]  talked to had like you know basically anytime i get into a fisty cuffs internet fight with somebody
+[1989.66 --> 1994.72]  about this they eventually pull out like well my app is eight megabytes of compressed javascript so i
+[1994.72 --> 1999.94]  have these problems i'm like okay cool but don't turn around and like offer this as generic advice of
+[1999.94 --> 2005.88]  like best practices that everyone should be doing because whether that was a necessary eight megabytes of
+[2005.88 --> 2011.32]  complexity which i doubt um or or not it's just not representative of most web applications it's a
+[2011.32 --> 2015.66]  problem you can push off till later and every time i see people try to adopt it on day one whether it's
+[2015.66 --> 2022.88]  browserify require um or even bauer it just introduces all of these stupid engineering problems that are a
+[2022.88 --> 2027.92]  distraction from the goal of building an application and lineman's all about getting up and running and
+[2027.92 --> 2031.20]  building an application quickly and not having to worry about those stupid engineering problems
+[2031.20 --> 2038.40]  like like build get focusing on your build and so forth um and uh it seems to just not respect the
+[2038.40 --> 2045.56]  cost of that right on so lineman you know lineman js interestingly the name is lineman js but if you go
+[2045.56 --> 2054.60]  to github and you click on the language statistics uh 59 coffee script 40 javascript but i can't actually
+[2054.60 --> 2060.84]  find where that javascript is coming from it seems like it's all coffee script i think it's probably uh
+[2060.84 --> 2066.32]  in the archetype uh which is the project that gets generated when you line the new there's javascript
+[2066.32 --> 2070.42]  in that i thought maybe there was some sort of thing that was automatically built that had the js in
+[2070.42 --> 2078.08]  it or something no and in fact uh you know i understand why um there's a first of all there's
+[2078.08 --> 2083.54]  the natural reticence to coffee script in the in the broader outside of ruby community yeah because it's
+[2083.54 --> 2090.92]  different uh and it's non-standard and it is uh you know it looks foreign if you've not used a dynamic
+[2090.92 --> 2094.52]  language before and it looks for foreign to some ruby who've never used a white space sensitive
+[2094.52 --> 2100.28]  language before um personally i'm sold because i you know there's myriad benefits that we could talk
+[2100.28 --> 2105.98]  about separately but um the things that are important to me is i want to write code that's as
+[2105.98 --> 2110.26]  clear and as reliable and understandable and maintainable as i possibly can because maintaining
+[2110.26 --> 2115.96]  open source is hard but i want to be handing people code that they can run with and and easily
+[2115.96 --> 2121.92]  understand uh and make sense of and so when you install a lineman and then run a um you know lineman
+[2121.92 --> 2126.62]  new and make a project everything is all javascript no coffee script gets generated unless you use the
+[2126.62 --> 2134.54]  tac tac coffee um uh option to to convert all of that to coffee script for you um and so i feel like
+[2134.54 --> 2139.36]  it's a kind of a straw man argument you're not the first person to bring it up some people have
+[2139.36 --> 2142.32]  literally been like i won't use this because it was written in coffee script and that just seems to
+[2142.32 --> 2147.38]  me like it's a coming from a point of entitlement right like i refuse to spend the 30 minutes it
+[2147.38 --> 2151.74]  takes to learn coffee script because it's really a very very tiny language when you think about it
+[2151.74 --> 2156.56]  and therefore your thing sucks and we should all not contribute to it and we shouldn't use it
+[2156.56 --> 2161.64]  right plus as you say this is a tool that you use and as an end user it's complete it's a nothing
+[2161.64 --> 2165.76]  to you whether what it was written in right it's generating javascript for you it's a command line tool
+[2165.76 --> 2173.72]  um it shouldn't matter that being said like as you said some people uh you know they're very
+[2173.72 --> 2178.08]  averse to coffee script have you gotten a lot of that kind of feedback with lineman maybe even on the
+[2178.08 --> 2184.10]  contribution side how the the contributors worked uh contributors have been fantastic i mean i always
+[2184.10 --> 2191.02]  want more of them uh i guess i'll break that up into two questions first on contributors i feel like
+[2191.02 --> 2194.84]  because we've been using this every day for two years on almost all of our client projects
+[2194.84 --> 2201.22]  uh lineman solves the problems i needed to solve and it is mature from my perspective i mean we never
+[2201.22 --> 2205.62]  did a 1.0 release but it does almost everything i need pretty well and there's things i want to fix
+[2205.62 --> 2211.64]  like there's rough corners but i can live with them pretty well um and so when people open issues uh or
+[2211.64 --> 2217.36]  have problems i would really love if they would more often contribute uh to the project because it's
+[2217.36 --> 2222.24]  their their itch is not my itch and so i could half-heartedly go and try to build it for them
+[2222.24 --> 2228.04]  um but but really there's uh just sort of a depression that sinks in when you realize that
+[2228.04 --> 2231.70]  you're spending a lot of time just trying to make other people happy on the internet for free
+[2231.70 --> 2237.96]  uh just like arguing on the internet and uh uh it bums me out when people kind of like open an issue
+[2237.96 --> 2243.66]  from from from a from a state of entitlement uh like hey your thing's dumb because it doesn't do this
+[2243.66 --> 2248.18]  and then i i get the thing in my inbox and realize i'm blocking somebody and i feel really guilty and i feel
+[2248.18 --> 2253.14]  beholden to them to like you know go implement that thing uh when you know 90 percent of people
+[2253.14 --> 2258.70]  never even offer or think to open a pull request um that's just that that bums me out and now i've
+[2258.70 --> 2262.30]  forgotten the first half of the question that i also was excited oh just if you have a lot of
+[2262.30 --> 2267.94]  so-called haters because of the copy script i think there's an interesting point to this too which is that
+[2267.94 --> 2275.56]  uh coming from the ruby community where like i think that like i see the same 100 150 people at all of
+[2275.56 --> 2281.12]  these ruby conferences across literally the world it's a much much smaller tighter knit uh community
+[2281.12 --> 2286.72]  and as a result we kind of all like you know there's a monoculture aspect to that you know
+[2286.72 --> 2292.20]  high mind yeah yeah we have debates and arguments but then things settle down and we either separate
+[2292.20 --> 2299.72]  into camps or we just sort of adopt the new the new way you can't do that with javascript because
+[2299.72 --> 2303.86]  everybody is stuck with javascript the whole world is writing javascript and they're all from these
+[2303.86 --> 2307.24]  different tribes and these different heritages and different back-end environments and so
+[2307.24 --> 2312.50]  a lot of times i'll see people whether it's from ruby or python or dotnet or java they will enter
+[2312.50 --> 2317.96]  the javascript world with nothing but the perspective of their back-end experience and then they'll
+[2317.96 --> 2324.12]  immediately freak out because they can't see any agreement like what's the right way to do x right
+[2324.12 --> 2329.46]  what's what's the standard way to do y and the answer is like of course there is no right way
+[2329.46 --> 2337.44]  there is no standard way um and and you have to kind of identify just to signal to noise you know
+[2337.44 --> 2344.02]  manage your life you have to identify a group that that seems to agree with you well enough that you
+[2344.02 --> 2349.48]  can be productive uh and one of the ways that i have sort of self-selected a group when i'm working
+[2349.48 --> 2355.02]  on node.js stuff is if somebody comes to me and says that because i write coffee script i'm my project's
+[2355.02 --> 2361.32]  dumb and i'm dumb too i'm like boom bozo button i don't yep you're out of my tribe the world is much
+[2361.32 --> 2366.06]  too big right for me to feel like i have to make absolutely everybody happy please tell me you have
+[2366.06 --> 2371.60]  a real bozo button i was gonna say i like that button i want that button uh i well i i tapped on
+[2371.60 --> 2376.38]  the lid of my water bottle when i said it so that'll be the new bozo button i guess i'd love to have that
+[2376.38 --> 2384.22]  yes right and it just like automatically blocks them on twitter and uh github there could be an
+[2384.22 --> 2390.42]  api and everything for it yeah yeah i love this because you know open source is so interesting we
+[2390.42 --> 2395.12]  have you know the techno they're the purely technical aspects of it right which we can talk
+[2395.12 --> 2400.58]  about all day long and debate and uh evaluate and improve and all that and then you have the social
+[2400.58 --> 2407.94]  meta kind of like the people of open source and all of the interesting and troublesome
+[2407.94 --> 2414.90]  situations that arise around that um then you have the corporate the corporate aspect where we see
+[2414.90 --> 2421.80]  more corporate backing of open source um licensing like there's all these kind of conversations around
+[2421.80 --> 2428.40]  open source that we can have and we do have um and justin you have a talk that's coming up
+[2428.40 --> 2431.26]  you've been you've been working on it you have an abstract called the social
+[2431.26 --> 2438.54]  coding contract which i think speaks into this milieu of the the community the open source community
+[2438.54 --> 2442.50]  especially in in the world that you run which is really the ruby and javascript communities
+[2442.50 --> 2447.44]  specifically um i'll just pull a quote you sent this to us i'd love to talk about it a little bit
+[2447.44 --> 2450.54]  here i'll pull a quote out of this it's probably not going to get the gist but it's my favorite
+[2450.54 --> 2456.54]  paragraph and you say sometimes i swear i can feel a teetering sensation from how precariously
+[2456.54 --> 2462.24]  our applications are perched on top of an ever-growing web of open source dependencies
+[2462.24 --> 2467.86]  fears that our tech stack is about to topple over have been for fomenting in recent years
+[2467.86 --> 2474.16]  but are those fears founded that's kind of the question you pose um you have a specific
+[2474.16 --> 2479.62]  scenario which kind of leads to this go ahead and speak into that and and tell us your thoughts on
+[2479.62 --> 2490.50]  this yeah so i think the zeitgeist um right now is a little bit cynical uh at least among the people
+[2490.50 --> 2497.54]  that that i follow on twitter and that i that i engage with in the community is that we've been
+[2497.54 --> 2502.88]  on this sort of we've been riding this rocket of ever increasing convenience in the open source world
+[2502.88 --> 2506.82]  it used to be the case that open source was a pain in the ass and you had to be really thoughtful
+[2506.82 --> 2511.84]  when you pulled in an open source dependency not just like legally but like literally like pre-github
+[2511.84 --> 2517.82]  pre all of these cool dependency managers like i remember like the pain even in 2004 of getting a jar
+[2517.82 --> 2522.92]  and getting that jar to like in my class path and working in my java project correctly whereas like
+[2522.92 --> 2529.92]  rubygems made it quite a lot easier bundler made it easier still uh npm makes it like almost comically
+[2529.92 --> 2536.58]  easy to both publish you know dinky little scripts and also to consume them um we're so from a package
+[2536.58 --> 2541.10]  management perspective it's easier and easier to slurp in new dependencies uh and it's easier and
+[2541.10 --> 2547.06]  easier to publish new ones and so um because there's so many solved problems out there and no one wants to
+[2547.06 --> 2554.22]  feel like they're reinventing the wheel every single application becomes a a kind of defined by the 15
+[2554.22 --> 2561.76]  totally disparate things that it stands on top of and those things are maintained by for the most part
+[2561.76 --> 2568.58]  white dudes in their 20s doing it in their spare time who might you know probably have a 40 chance
+[2568.58 --> 2576.88]  of never committing to that thing again right and that is what runs the world software you know that's
+[2576.88 --> 2581.68]  that's what runs pretty soon you know real-time systems even not like about several friends who
+[2581.68 --> 2586.20]  work in real-time systems this trend is coming to real-time systems things that run hydroelectric
+[2586.20 --> 2591.02]  jams things that run airplanes right those embedded devices are getting so strong now that they can
+[2591.02 --> 2597.00]  realistically run you know uh if not dynamic languages certainly stuff like rust and go and
+[2597.00 --> 2604.06]  that's been brought up in this culture of of of convenient uh uh open source grabs meanwhile we're
+[2604.06 --> 2608.72]  seeing like in the news constantly all these open source projects that literally 80 percent of servers
+[2608.72 --> 2612.66]  rely on be like oh there's a gigantic security hole and everything we thought was secure for the
+[2612.66 --> 2618.96]  last 10 years on the internet wasn't yes uh we have all of these basically like you could almost just
+[2618.96 --> 2624.64]  paint uh your application as a graph of single points of failure like here's all of the millions
+[2624.64 --> 2629.72]  of things that could go wrong that could break us and we don't understand any of them because our
+[2629.72 --> 2634.02]  understanding stops as soon as we've typed the name of the gem into our gem file or the name of the
+[2634.02 --> 2640.44]  package into our package json and so the thrust of the talk is like not that this is necessarily bad
+[2640.44 --> 2645.02]  and we're all doomed it's that users i think have a much greater responsibility to understand what
+[2645.02 --> 2652.22]  dependencies they're pulling in who's maintaining them under you know what pretenses uh uh not just
+[2652.22 --> 2657.56]  how how it's licensed but how is it being built like is it is it is there a healthy community around
+[2657.56 --> 2663.66]  it um is it is it small enough to not be an albatross but is it big enough to have the gravitas
+[2663.66 --> 2671.02]  necessary to be able to rely on you know stable releases and fixes in the future and i think most
+[2671.02 --> 2675.44]  users have kind of just lowered their standards over time as the convenience has gone up from
+[2675.44 --> 2679.06]  companies like that use open source like you mentioned companies companies have a similar
+[2679.06 --> 2684.00]  responsibility like they're getting a tremendous lift a huge amount of free value from open source
+[2684.00 --> 2689.60]  and and if i think of my friends who work in enterprises they have carte blanche ability now to
+[2689.60 --> 2693.88]  use whatever open source they like maybe they have to run a license by a lawyer or something but then
+[2693.88 --> 2698.86]  like if they try to spend two hours to submit a patch it's it's you know basically they have to
+[2698.86 --> 2704.98]  either use vacation time and then still talk to the lawyers uh or or they just you know don't and
+[2704.98 --> 2709.56]  can't and i think that corporations that are using open source and getting all of this tremendous value
+[2709.56 --> 2716.14]  from it have a responsibility to give back something and i don't know exactly what that is yet but that's
+[2716.14 --> 2720.24]  some some of the stuff i'm going to be chewing on for the talk but the maybe the more interesting
+[2720.24 --> 2724.50]  part to me because i'm more you know i publish a lot of open source and not everyone does is i want
+[2724.50 --> 2728.00]  to kind of peel the curtain back a little bit into just like what's the psyche of an open source
+[2728.00 --> 2735.28]  maintainer and for me the the saddest thing about it is that i build tools to solve problems that i
+[2735.28 --> 2740.96]  have and i get some day one gratification of like man i just solved that problem that i had i granted
+[2740.96 --> 2745.12]  i spent all day on a tool to solve the problem when i could have solved the problem some other way in 30
+[2745.12 --> 2750.40]  minutes but you know now i've automated it and that's fantastic but then days like two through n of
+[2750.40 --> 2755.16]  the project are well i had that first problem but now almost all of my problems are maintaining this
+[2755.16 --> 2761.08]  thing that solves that same problem for other people into perpetuity and when you build a thing
+[2761.08 --> 2766.02]  because you wish it existed in the world you don't get to enjoy it the same way as if it had already
+[2766.02 --> 2771.12]  existed because you have to maintain it you have to worry about it and you have to you take the heat
+[2771.12 --> 2777.10]  when it doesn't work out for some stranger on the internet um and all of those things really
+[2777.10 --> 2782.72]  contribute to the sort of burnout that we see in open source um and and that burnout feeds directly
+[2782.72 --> 2787.92]  into the instability of all the dependencies that we stand on so there's just this uh healthy unhealthy
+[2787.92 --> 2793.88]  burning of the candle at both ends that's going on uh and it's structural and we have to really think
+[2793.88 --> 2800.12]  radically i believe to to figure out what's a sustainable way forward um for all of these
+[2800.12 --> 2803.62]  shared tools because granted everyone no one wants to have to like you know resolve all the same
+[2803.62 --> 2808.22]  problems in every single enterprise and just sort of have like this big nasty dark closet of wheel
+[2808.22 --> 2814.84]  reinvention uh because that's you know similarly hugely error prone but there's got to be a better
+[2814.84 --> 2821.42]  way uh to to sort of just find like that's why i called it the social coding contract like we have
+[2821.42 --> 2828.44]  to find some sort of like you know cultural mores to um shift both our expectations as users and also
+[2828.44 --> 2834.72]  how we view uh maintainers they are not these superheroes that that have like a bajillion stars on github
+[2834.72 --> 2839.22]  and have figured out how to do software they're mostly just people who published a thing and it
+[2839.22 --> 2845.56]  got popular and now their life is dominated by that thing let's pause the show for a minute give a
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+[2907.34 --> 2914.26]  today wow so do you have any radical ideas are you just kind of broaching the topic at this point
+[2914.26 --> 2919.74]  saying this is something that we need to talk about um i i have some but they're probably too early to
+[2919.74 --> 2925.98]  speak with with any confidence i think that the um the overarching
+[2925.98 --> 2934.14]  message is going to be that that both parties need to meet in the middle right users need to have a
+[2934.14 --> 2938.50]  deeper understanding of what they're using you need to like default to open up source and look at how the
+[2938.50 --> 2943.80]  source works and contribute back a little bit um because only if you're having the deeper understanding of
+[2943.80 --> 2947.76]  what you're on top of could you ever hope to contribute there's like this demystification
+[2947.76 --> 2951.78]  that occurs when you actually look at the source of the thing you're like oh wow that guy was a
+[2951.78 --> 2959.16]  human huh i thought it was magic um yeah there was a real moment in my you know technical career
+[2959.16 --> 2965.48]  as software developer where i went from being like too afraid to do that to like be that becoming my
+[2965.48 --> 2969.40]  the first thing i do almost immediately sometimes to a fault where i'm like i'm gonna blame this
+[2969.40 --> 2977.10]  dependency when really just my code is got a bug in it but but like i agree with you absolutely like
+[2977.10 --> 2983.44]  you as users of open source like we should be hopping into that and being able to diagnose or try
+[2983.44 --> 2990.08]  right it's difficult for beginners to do those kind of things but um you know the earlier and sooner you
+[2990.08 --> 2996.14]  do it and dive into the mucky muck so to speak the sooner you realize like it's not magic in here this
+[2996.14 --> 3001.52]  this black box has parts that make sense and some don't work and some do and and you grow as a
+[3001.52 --> 3006.34]  developer as part of participating in that process i think that's changing though i think for beginners
+[3006.34 --> 3013.18]  that's that's changing because of the source being so pointed to and pull requests being so social now
+[3013.18 --> 3017.44]  i think that's that's beginning to evolve i think people are becoming more and more aware that
+[3017.44 --> 3022.80]  their first resource should be not just asking your buddy hey how does this work or ask the maintainer
+[3022.80 --> 3026.50]  hey where's the api for this or the docs for this or whatever it's like digging into the actual code
+[3026.50 --> 3032.64]  themselves it's becoming i think that that thought jared is kind of evolving a bit i agree that it's
+[3032.64 --> 3038.78]  evolving a bit and i think that github and pull requests um have helped but one of the things that's
+[3038.78 --> 3043.24]  actually i think kind of unfortunate is that our tools have taken several steps back like i talked
+[3043.24 --> 3049.70]  about just focus on ruby and javascript today say like ruby's debuggers aren't fantastic um ruby offers a
+[3049.70 --> 3054.36]  lot of introspection capabilities of like what's going on in the runtime but not a ton of introspection
+[3054.36 --> 3060.16]  about like where's this source and what is it and how do i open it um a node is about a bajillion
+[3060.16 --> 3065.94]  times worse than this uh because uh debugging you know what's going on under the covers is notoriously
+[3065.94 --> 3070.34]  difficult uh to the point that you know the operational standard in node is like oh well yeah
+[3070.34 --> 3075.10]  every single node process leaks memory like a sieve so just make sure that operationally you can bounce
+[3075.10 --> 3081.06]  those servers whenever you need to um and and it really starts to feel after a while like a black
+[3081.06 --> 3087.44]  box like what's going on under here so i guess i mean one one approach would be invest the time in
+[3087.44 --> 3094.10]  tools that make that lower that that barrier of entry to to hop over into the source code or even
+[3094.10 --> 3099.16]  just like exclaim and visualize it and put it in your face even when you don't ask it to so that like
+[3099.16 --> 3103.42]  you know sort of like code folding right in browser in editors what if you could just like every time
+[3103.42 --> 3108.44]  you called a third party api you could unfold that code and see the source of that method like in
+[3108.44 --> 3114.82]  every editor that sort of stuff would just dramatically i think uh increase the level of
+[3114.82 --> 3122.52]  engagement from users yeah absolutely you think perhaps languages um like go and and russ have
+[3122.52 --> 3128.16]  easier time developing those kind of tools we would have in our communities just because of the nature of
+[3128.16 --> 3133.40]  the languages um it seems like this this thought kind of came into focus you said when uh you
+[3133.40 --> 3139.46]  took over rspec given recently after jim after jim wyrick's death i know you are a huge fan of jim
+[3139.46 --> 3145.12]  wyrick um can you speak to that kind of the process of taking over and just uh anything you like to
+[3145.12 --> 3153.46]  about jim yeah um so i've taken uh over the project with uh another wonderful fella named doug elcorn he's
+[3153.46 --> 3161.62]  at gaslight software in cincinnati um and i've only we've taken it over in name only uh we we haven't yet
+[3161.62 --> 3165.10]  actually started digging into the code and starting to work through the backlog of issues
+[3165.10 --> 3170.92]  um but it's funny because we started this process like five months ago and we only like got ruby
+[3170.92 --> 3175.90]  gems access a few weeks ago and we're only able to announce it like last week and a big reason for that
+[3175.90 --> 3182.98]  was uh a combination of of situational problems that are very common um i believe that like uh jim
+[3182.98 --> 3188.50]  didn't specify this kind of stuff in a will right like like who's the executor of my open source
+[3188.50 --> 3195.32]  cachet like who runs rake now right uh and as the world ages as like all this open source is around
+[3195.32 --> 3199.46]  longer we're going to have to deal with this like literally like you need a living will for your open
+[3199.46 --> 3205.06]  source you need to specify whose copyright it is if you die and who can maintain it because
+[3205.06 --> 3209.68]  places like github that we have since learned will require stuff like that legally before they can just
+[3209.68 --> 3217.32]  hand you a repository uh it's not enough that the guy passed away um uh a lot of other services are
+[3217.32 --> 3222.50]  are you know very accommodating but uh you know maybe have a like less rigor about that kind of
+[3222.50 --> 3226.62]  thing but then at the same time they're also operating on shoestring budgets and they just can't
+[3226.62 --> 3232.04]  handle the the the volume of customer help requests that they have so like ruby gem specifically they
+[3232.04 --> 3236.82]  don't have the funding to to spend a ton of time on support and so it took quite a while to get
+[3236.82 --> 3243.16]  uh feedback from nick and evan about about how to move forward uh so so situationally that was
+[3243.16 --> 3248.58]  that was painful um i think i think just structurally
+[3248.58 --> 3256.78]  what i worry about is that we we just aren't geared for for
+[3256.78 --> 3263.18]  sharing dependencies with other people sharing control with other people i guess the other half
+[3263.18 --> 3267.56]  of the talk to get to give you sort of like we talked about the user responsibility the other
+[3267.56 --> 3271.88]  half of the talk is like maintainers generally built their stuff to solve their own problem
+[3271.88 --> 3278.74]  and when somebody else wants to help they're they're they're solving a slightly different
+[3278.74 --> 3284.16]  problem they're solving a variation on the problem that the color is colored by their perspective
+[3284.16 --> 3289.24]  and as a maintainer i don't want to cede control to that guy because he's going to like you know
+[3289.24 --> 3293.40]  if he's really active he's going to kind of pull the project away from my center of gravity towards
+[3293.40 --> 3297.72]  where he wants maybe it's how he codes things or maybe it's what it does and how it does what it
+[3297.72 --> 3301.70]  does and so i think a lot of uh open source maintainers even though they're great people
+[3301.70 --> 3307.38]  tend to be kind of control freaks because they've been burned you know however many times with pull
+[3307.38 --> 3312.72]  requests that introduce bugs and then they have to maintain and so forth um but but i keep seeing all
+[3312.72 --> 3318.28]  these projects that have literally one contributor on them uh and my goal is to try to discourage that
+[3318.28 --> 3323.32]  in my own work uh and and try to pull in additional contributors and try to more actively solicit people
+[3323.32 --> 3328.54]  for help not just because i'm i don't want to spend the time working on it constantly that would be
+[3328.54 --> 3334.66]  great but because uh it is more stable the more people have access and control to things and have
+[3334.66 --> 3341.42]  had eyes on it you know i've never read read rspec given 2.0's uh source code i was familiar with 1.0
+[3341.42 --> 3347.36]  but 2.0 was a rewrite so i'm gonna have to go in basically with no help uh and totally figure it out
+[3347.36 --> 3352.22]  soup to nuts and if i'd spent just a little bit of time pairing with jim and he had an open offer
+[3352.22 --> 3358.78]  on the table for me to pair with him on it uh uh which i obviously regret not taking him up on
+[3358.78 --> 3365.38]  uh now i'm totally on my own um to say nothing of how important you know his documentation is going
+[3365.38 --> 3371.16]  to be to me which is another area a lot of open source fall short um so that project in particular i
+[3371.16 --> 3375.90]  love it because it's just uh jim gave several talks on rspec given if you have any familiarity with
+[3375.90 --> 3385.06]  rspec or with bdd style unit testing uh i think that given is a really really thematically honest
+[3385.06 --> 3392.28]  conceptually pure way to write unit tests um and it has a lot of benefits that are just not obvious
+[3392.28 --> 3396.80]  at first blush at first blush it looks like oh these are just aliases to give in and before each
+[3396.80 --> 3401.74]  and so forth like that it's just more dsl kind of you know machinations but when you really dive in
+[3401.74 --> 3407.34]  and you realize like the how the structure of the tests becomes much more clear and the uh the
+[3407.34 --> 3413.54]  additional tools that it gives you with using less fewer keywords uh it's a fantastic tool and and i've
+[3413.54 --> 3417.90]  got a port called jasmine given that does the same thing for jasmine which is why i've got the interest in
+[3417.90 --> 3425.54]  maintaining both going forward um but anyway yeah i love the tool and and uh you know speaking on jim
+[3425.54 --> 3433.42]  a little bit more broadly uh my goal is to be more like him in how i carry myself in the community
+[3433.42 --> 3437.98]  and i i feel like a lot of people have said that after he passed away jeff casimir tweeted right after
+[3437.98 --> 3444.24]  jim passed that um no matter who you were uh or or or what your idea was or what you had to say or
+[3444.24 --> 3451.76]  whether jim had had had learned that thing that you learned a hundred years ago he treated you like
+[3451.76 --> 3458.98]  you were fascinating and he uh uh got excited for your excitement and he just had so much joy in his
+[3458.98 --> 3464.48]  heart that he couldn't wait to share with whoever was around him and he was so welcoming um that even
+[3464.48 --> 3469.80]  when you know he was a well-rounded guy i mean he got mad at stuff i think one time he said that you
+[3469.80 --> 3477.86]  you've never really understood a dependency until you've come to hate it um he he he could be biting
+[3477.86 --> 3485.12]  like i i this is several years old now but like when he gave me criticism about about uh code that
+[3485.12 --> 3491.54]  i wrote or how i wrote it uh you know i wanted just like you know you know that that uh uh that image
+[3491.54 --> 3496.72]  where it's like you know lie down and ball try not to cry cry uncontrollably like i like it's really
+[3496.72 --> 3507.60]  uh hit my ego hard but the reason he he was uh uh so so so i guess why it hurt me so much
+[3507.60 --> 3513.46]  was because it's so true and his his feedback was so crisp and so grounded in just so much expertise
+[3513.46 --> 3517.66]  and so much wisdom that he he'd you know he didn't get that wisdom because he was older and he'd been
+[3517.66 --> 3521.72]  programming a long time he got that wisdom because he was incredibly thoughtful and introspective
+[3521.72 --> 3527.94]  and careful and he managed to have both that aspect which i which uh you know i try to pride
+[3527.94 --> 3534.04]  myself on but also this ability to very gracefully meet people where they are and get inside of their
+[3534.04 --> 3540.56]  heads and um that's something that that i think that all of us could you know do a better job with
+[3540.56 --> 3545.08]  and it just makes me really sad we're not going to be running into him at all the conferences
+[3545.08 --> 3553.92]  throughout ohio from now on yeah absolutely man uh speaking of jim the ruby rogues did a a great
+[3553.92 --> 3557.64]  tribute episode i don't know if you heard that or not episode 151 look it up while you're talking there
+[3557.64 --> 3562.72]  uh the ruby rogues talk about jim and all the impact he had on them he had such a dramatic impact on
+[3562.72 --> 3567.36]  so many it's just amazing how many people even though it's a small community that he specifically
+[3567.36 --> 3574.84]  touched a huge loss to the ruby community well justin i think that's a good place to wrap
+[3574.84 --> 3579.28]  appreciate you coming on we're excited about lyman and what you're doing there i've used it a little
+[3579.28 --> 3584.72]  bit i'm excited to use it on some more projects and uh thanks for coming on and talking to us right
+[3584.72 --> 3589.18]  on thank you guys i really appreciate being here and if anyone has any questions at all feel free to
+[3589.18 --> 3594.30]  reach out to me on twitter or i'm justin at testdouble.com and specifically with lyman like
+[3594.30 --> 3598.74]  we don't have an irc or anything so if you have a question or something's confusing just open a github
+[3598.74 --> 3603.16]  issue it's not just about this code doesn't work we just want to have the conversation uh in in one
+[3603.16 --> 3609.38]  place and help help everyone out awesome well we'll be back next week and let's all say goodbye
+[3609.38 --> 3612.18]  bye so long
+[3612.18 --> 3627.78]  like
+[3627.78 --> 3630.88]  you
+[3630.88 --> 3632.88]  you
+[3632.88 --> 3662.86]  Thank you.

MEAN.js & Full-Stack JavaScript_transcript.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,420 @@
+[0.00 --> 14.40]  welcome back everyone this is the changelog where members support a blog podcast and weekly
+[14.40 --> 21.02]  email covering what's fresh and what's new in open source check out the blog at the changelog.com
+[21.02 --> 27.20]  our past shows at five by five dot tv slash changelog you're listening to episode 119 and
+[27.20 --> 34.28]  talk to the fellows behind mean js amos aviv and rowie cohen mean js is a full stack javascript
+[34.28 --> 43.10]  solution using mongo db express anguli js and node great show today it's sponsored by codeship
+[43.10 --> 48.52]  rackspace and harry's we'll tell you a bit more about rackspace and harry's later on the show but
+[48.52 --> 54.54]  our good friends over at codeship also a partner of the changelog they're a hosted continuous
+[54.54 --> 60.36]  deployment service that just works easily set up continuous integration for your application today
+[60.36 --> 66.26]  in just a few steps and automatically deploy when all your tests pass that's the way to do it
+[66.26 --> 71.66]  codeship has great support for lots of languages test frameworks as well as notification services
+[71.66 --> 77.52]  they easily integrate with github bitbucket and can deploy to cloud services like heroku
+[77.52 --> 85.02]  aws nojitsu google app engine or even your own servers get started today with their free plan
+[85.02 --> 93.94]  setup takes only three minutes no excuses to have untested code in production head to codeship.io and
+[93.94 --> 101.48]  also check out their blog which i love by the way blog.codeship.io one more thing to mention for our
+[101.48 --> 109.86]  members um you can save between 294 and 2994 on your first year with codeship so make sure you take
+[109.86 --> 115.18]  advantage of that the changelog.com benefits if you're not a member what are you waiting for
+[115.18 --> 120.82]  membership is just 20 bucks a year and you support us to support open source once again
+[120.82 --> 129.68]  codeship.io sign up three minutes that's all it takes do it today and now on to the show
+[129.68 --> 139.76]  we're joined today by Amos Aviv and Roe Schwaber Cohen talking about Mean.js it's a product oriented
+[139.76 --> 145.30]  full stack javascript boilerplate so why don't one of you guys give us a uh well first of all why don't
+[145.30 --> 153.28]  you guys introduce yourself i guess Amos you can go first um so my name is Amos Aviv and i'm a developer
+[153.28 --> 164.68]  a web developer for about uh 12 years now um i've been through the days of i5 and quicksmod uh through
+[164.68 --> 174.80]  uh the birth of the uh new generation um browsers and finally to where we are today uh in this exciting
+[174.80 --> 182.40]  new world of javascript uh in in the server and stuff like that um i do a lot of um
+[182.40 --> 192.48]  side projects i guess um because uh you have to do something for your soul um
+[192.48 --> 200.10]  and one of the latest side projects i had was Mean.io um which evolved to be Mean.js
+[200.10 --> 207.56]  um yeah so there's there's a little bit of drama around that which we'll kind of touch on a little
+[207.56 --> 212.34]  bit um later in the show but we you know we'll kind of avoid that as much as possible just to kind
+[212.34 --> 217.34]  of shine a light on the good of Mean.js um so that's cool so you've been around you've been doing
+[217.34 --> 223.68]  this for a while yeah uh Roe yeah Roe why don't you so i've been a developer in israel um for the past
+[223.68 --> 231.44]  uh nine years i would say um yeah i come from a more of a php background but recently also found
+[231.44 --> 238.76]  the light and node um very interested in like all of what this framework has to offer um and then
+[238.76 --> 244.60]  angular is again one of the newer tools that i've started using in the past uh maybe a year or two
+[244.60 --> 253.52]  um and i'm currently working for a company called leafly here in seattle um yeah that's about it
+[253.52 --> 259.36]  awesome so why don't you guys give us a uh introduction to what Mean.js is um in its current
+[259.36 --> 270.34]  in its current form okay so um Mean.js is a full stack javascript boilerplate um it was born out of
+[270.34 --> 279.02]  uh our attempt at um a better flow for this kind of stack so the term was coined um in the MongoDB
+[279.02 --> 287.32]  blog actually um and we basically found out that it was super um efficient um almost basically wrote
+[287.32 --> 294.74]  the stack um i think it was uh six or seven months ago no no it was am i making a mistake yeah it's
+[294.74 --> 304.62]  about uh a year ago um the blog post was uh written by a developer called valery karpov he uh on the
+[304.62 --> 313.02]  mongodb blog um i used to do uh i'm a freelance developer so i i'm involved in several projects
+[313.02 --> 320.82]  and i recognized a certain pattern in projects where where developers used mongodb as the database
+[320.82 --> 330.62]  uh node as the web server and uh angular js as the as the client web framework um and decided uh
+[330.62 --> 337.38]  uh those projects could look better be better organized if uh they put in some sort of order
+[337.38 --> 346.48]  so i created uh a Mean stack uh which i used uh uh for about uh two months before we released it as
+[346.48 --> 355.22]  an open source um i i i thought the name Mean was cool and when i looked it up i found out uh
+[355.22 --> 364.98]  several people are already using it uh so i just released it um as Mean um to to address the namespace
+[364.98 --> 378.02]  i guess um it can it it basically um was constructed to offer uh MVC whatever um structure to both the
+[378.02 --> 386.82]  server side and the server side um in a way that um represents your entities properly um
+[386.82 --> 396.66]  i think what what i i tried to do uh was help developers from coming from strict type languages
+[396.66 --> 407.76]  with background in in a java um uh sp.net uh and stuff like that um step into the world of node.js
+[407.76 --> 416.42]  web applications and feel a little more comfortable um and so the point of Mean uh just sorry to interrupt
+[416.42 --> 421.70]  the point of Mean so it's it's it's opinionated right it's mongo express angular node and this is
+[421.70 --> 428.02]  something that you guys basically noticed was like a really common trend amongst uh for a node stack
+[428.02 --> 434.56]  right which was this thing called Mean uh what is it about Mean.js now i've used all of these things
+[434.56 --> 441.00]  and all of them are relatively easy to uh get started with on their own what is it about Mean.js that that
+[441.00 --> 445.34]  kind of makes it easier to get started with the whole stack rather than trying to do each one individually
+[445.34 --> 452.08]  so i think uh the most important uh stuff we wanted to address the most important issue we wanted to
+[452.08 --> 459.42]  address was um the interface between the different parts um you have your angular js application uh
+[459.42 --> 466.58]  running and you want to communicate with your node server so your node server um it should present
+[466.58 --> 477.64]  some sort of a rest api for angular js to use um and we wanted that um uh interface point uh to be
+[477.64 --> 488.24]  properly organized so when you download the stack you get um a folder structure uh and a couple of config
+[488.24 --> 494.56]  files that help you configure the different parts of the application like um the connection point between
+[494.56 --> 503.62]  node and uh MongoDB uh where we use the Mongoose module or uh a user authentication layer uh which uses the
+[503.62 --> 511.62]  the popular passport module and we wanted to give this all out of the box uh to feel to let uh developers just
+[511.62 --> 520.96]  uh begin writing their code uh instead of uh i don't know trying to figure out how to um build their project
+[520.96 --> 531.46]  um and just concentrate on building uh what they want instead of um the infrastructure which which i used to see
+[531.46 --> 538.70]  uh which i used to see developers uh taking a lot of time uh dealing with the infrastructure and the way
+[538.70 --> 545.98]  the proper way to uh connect those parts uh so right means we have a very i think we have a very
+[545.98 --> 552.40]  important um concept that we're trying to relay um with mean which is first of all we chose um
+[552.40 --> 562.18]  only if not um like mostly if not only popular um components so um we intentionally chose to go with
+[562.18 --> 568.24]  Mongo instead of couch we intentionally chose to go with express instead of some other um um framework
+[568.24 --> 575.06]  uh that does routing we chose to reduce uh our jade imprint eventually because all of these things
+[575.06 --> 580.82]  were were were coming from the community so we're trying to pick um again components that are really
+[580.82 --> 586.60]  popular from the one hand and from the other we really wanted to not abstract away the simplicity of
+[586.60 --> 591.98]  of all these frameworks so we don't want to create some sort of like a layer that takes all this
+[591.98 --> 596.62]  complexity away from you as a developer we wanted it we wanted you to still be hands-on and really
+[596.62 --> 603.36]  understand how the parts work but um that doesn't necessitate um you learning each of the components
+[603.36 --> 609.02]  and like really knowing how to integrate them properly um and we found that it was really easy
+[609.02 --> 615.30]  to start um creating vertical stacks uh which means like all the stacks in the server all the all the
+[615.30 --> 622.26]  parts of the server and the client for for a given entity um it made that whole process a lot easier and a lot
+[622.26 --> 628.92]  faster right so this is different from a lot of our listeners are rubyists and this is different from
+[628.92 --> 634.46]  rails and that rails is its own thing right it builds all the layers into its own thing and and
+[634.46 --> 638.60]  this would be similar if you guys were to say build your own express that had its own templating and
+[638.60 --> 644.00]  its own database and its own you know all that mean it takes the other tools so you still have
+[644.00 --> 649.54]  complete control over the tools individually and it allows you to but it makes it easier to kind of
+[649.54 --> 654.68]  connect it all together yeah i think one of the more the more uh prominent patterns we saw with uh
+[654.68 --> 661.74]  with mean is the amount of forks um that were kind of unusual to yeah about um 1000 forks already
+[661.74 --> 667.38]  yeah so like yeah the total the total is about 1000 forks and the reason for that is people
+[667.38 --> 672.12]  like different flavors of mean and they like different flavors of full stack javascript really
+[672.12 --> 677.74]  um so if we look at this entire picture we're we're of the mind that um all these flavors are
+[677.74 --> 683.94]  totally valid and we're not necessarily opinionated um in a way that says like our our flavor is better
+[683.94 --> 688.82]  than any other flavor it's just that we found these tools to be super popular and super helpful
+[688.82 --> 694.54]  and powerful and we thought that they were our our best choice for the scenarios where we were
+[694.54 --> 701.04]  at the time so i was um um developing for a startup called go mango and i had to rewrite my website
+[701.04 --> 706.14]  really quickly and it was sort of built with a lot of fragmented pieces of jquery and angular
+[706.14 --> 712.08]  and node in the back and some php and some dotnet and all all these systems were working together
+[712.08 --> 717.78]  but not very well um and my first experience with mean.io was when i basically converted my website
+[717.78 --> 722.94]  that was built before that um it took about eight months to build and i converted it in about two
+[722.94 --> 732.30]  weeks so i feel i really felt a very significant and real um uh change in in the speed uh of my
+[732.30 --> 737.78]  development and i think it really it really has a lot to do with a the fact that we're doing only
+[737.78 --> 743.94]  javascript um and not like switching between languages which is immensely helpful and it's
+[743.94 --> 750.94]  sort of easier to keep on thinking sort of the same way um with with thinking and and i and i specifically
+[750.94 --> 756.96]  mean about thinking about modularity and thinking about you know um asynchronous um uh workflow instead
+[756.96 --> 761.70]  of a synchronous workflow all of that together creates this effect of everything is so much easier
+[761.70 --> 768.22]  and faster gotcha so the the idea that you're using like mongo instead of couch or react and express
+[768.22 --> 773.74]  instead of happy or getty or you know different different things uh that's that's your choice but
+[773.74 --> 778.78]  but what happens when like somebody forks this and it's reen right with all the same stack except
+[778.78 --> 783.24]  react instead of mongo and that one kind of takes off as the popular fork like that's that's a real
+[783.24 --> 789.44]  problem that this open source project faces um and so what happens there we're actually not yeah we're
+[789.44 --> 794.62]  not seeing it as a problem yeah we're not this is a great yeah how else you can go so we're not
+[794.62 --> 801.52]  viewing it as a uh we're not viewing it as a problem um we actually find this as a great opportunity
+[801.52 --> 811.00]  uh we i personally hate uh um religious technical discussions like the editor wars of the 80s
+[811.00 --> 819.26]  um i i find it extremely unproductive i believe everyone should choose their
+[819.26 --> 830.24]  tools i'm really pro um um a variety of tools so what we we faced this early on uh roi actually
+[830.24 --> 838.44]  helped one of our uh more passionate developers um yeah martin jenna he's like an awesome awesome dude
+[838.44 --> 846.76]  yeah he's like an awesome dude who runs the the 100 jas blog uh and he wanted to make a mean fork
+[846.76 --> 857.66]  using amber and roi helped him doing so uh and and uh when we saw this coming uh we and roi uh started
+[857.66 --> 865.76]  creating uh different forks of mean we we created a jane fork which used a juggling db as an obfuscation
+[865.76 --> 874.76]  layer for different databases um i played with the idea of um breaking the angular part and um
+[874.76 --> 883.88]  um letting users re uh use the the web framework frameworks they want like amber uh backbone knockout
+[883.88 --> 889.80]  whatever you like um and i helped the company implement their own web framework inside mean
+[889.80 --> 897.44]  so um we find this this is actually one of the things we find uh inspiring because we don't see mean
+[897.44 --> 905.26]  as uh as the goal we see it as a starting point for something much bigger um javascript full stack is
+[905.26 --> 912.78]  a vision not yet uh fulfilled yeah it's very new yeah it's very new uh we experienced uh firsthand
+[912.78 --> 922.62]  the possibilities in this field um as roi mentioned um the quick uh the gain in performance
+[922.62 --> 927.78]  developers uh developers get when they use a javascript um a full stack javascript boilerplate
+[927.78 --> 936.00]  uh is impressive um and we want to push towards that location we even considering starting a project
+[936.00 --> 943.86]  called jsfs we will talk about it sometimes sometime later but uh jsfs will contain the different flavors
+[943.86 --> 952.74]  of um full stack javascript it's um it's uh in the far future i don't know how far but um
+[952.74 --> 957.54]  it's still in its infancy yeah yeah yeah but but but that's okay that's um
+[957.54 --> 964.44]  we find this as an opportunity not a problem we we see we would like to see developers implement
+[964.44 --> 972.26]  their own flavor of whatever they like stack um call it whatever i think we're trying to also like
+[972.26 --> 978.60]  sort of take the discussion about javascript to like a newer place which talks about not only the
+[978.60 --> 983.84]  components that you use but rather the patterns that we see emerging from these these tools so like
+[983.84 --> 989.62]  full like the full stack thing comes comes naturally because it's all javascript and all in one language
+[989.62 --> 998.80]  so it's much easier to describe it that way um but i i sort of feel that that um with with this this
+[998.80 --> 1004.50]  framework framework uh in mind we can start talking about more complex ideas and then start thinking
+[1004.50 --> 1009.58]  about how are we collaborating across this ecosystem because like one of the problems we were facing and
+[1009.58 --> 1014.10]  that's something that you start facing when you're doing full stack javascript is how do you do um
+[1014.10 --> 1019.34]  package management for for the front end for the back end and these are like larger issues that are
+[1019.34 --> 1026.14]  relevant to the entire um sort of full stack uh javascript community right or ecosystem and not just to
+[1026.14 --> 1030.78]  mean we're going to pause the show real quick and give a shout out to our sponsors rackspace
+[1030.78 --> 1036.90]  they love open source they dedicate themselves to supporting open source and the developer community
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+[1081.66 --> 1087.50]  to new features and new products that they roll out so go ahead and sign up for this today make
+[1087.50 --> 1096.36]  something awesome and get started today developer.rackspace.com slash dev trial so just out of curiosity
+[1096.36 --> 1103.40]  yamas as somebody who is around in the editor wars um which editor is the right one to use with mean
+[1103.40 --> 1116.76]  developers um developers prefer different kind of of editors according to uh the way they used to um
+[1116.76 --> 1126.80]  um program i think when you maintain um a large code base you would prefer using an ide or um a tool that
+[1126.80 --> 1133.32]  allows like a tool that allows you to to dig deeper and and and assist you with with understanding the
+[1133.32 --> 1140.54]  complexity of your code and when you write a lot of code like we do uh i i prefer my editors as lean
+[1140.54 --> 1150.04]  as possible uh i currently use sublime um sub the the guy writing sublime is awesome um i'm addicted
+[1150.04 --> 1156.24]  to multiple characters um so that's that was a joke question you're not supposed to really have
+[1156.24 --> 1162.88]  an answer for that that's not fair no no you stepped into a field i i am i'm talking so much about
+[1162.88 --> 1169.04]  we're both kind of like editor fanatics and we're like totally interested in any new editor that comes
+[1169.04 --> 1174.20]  around because part of us does feel that there is some sort of a gap between what we need as developers
+[1174.20 --> 1178.98]  when we're trying to like maintain a full stack application it's sort of getting difficult because
+[1178.98 --> 1183.38]  you're you're juggling a lot of balls and and it sort of feels like sometimes you're encumbered by your
+[1183.38 --> 1187.84]  editor um and and yeah that's also another conversation we sort of want to have with people
+[1187.84 --> 1194.20]  gotcha so actually uh to kind of ask this question uh i think it was rowey did you say you came from
+[1194.20 --> 1201.08]  like php land yeah mostly yeah so one of the things to get started i mean specifically in like node land
+[1201.08 --> 1206.28]  and with you know full stack javascript is the ability to learn and the ability to learn like the
+[1206.28 --> 1211.70]  new environment and all that um what was it like for you and what what is it how does mean kind of
+[1211.70 --> 1218.22]  help people when they're getting started in in node land so so my experience was that um everything
+[1218.22 --> 1226.04]  requires a lot of experimentation um and well once you get the gist of uh you know how javascript works
+[1226.04 --> 1232.26]  in its core um once you start understanding that not everything is synchronous um everything sort of
+[1232.26 --> 1237.38]  starts making more sense so i had a rough time starting out um and i didn't have a whole lot of
+[1237.38 --> 1241.66]  documentation on node because i started playing with it when it was like still not not really around
+[1241.66 --> 1249.18]  um as a as a production uh framework at least um and what we're trying to do again is like sort of uh
+[1249.18 --> 1255.40]  with mean is sort of start with uh frameworks that are already well known um already uh have a community
+[1255.40 --> 1262.66]  and some sort of uh a well a good documentation um with them and we we really tried with mean js to
+[1262.66 --> 1267.58]  expand our own documentation and sort of make it easy for you as a developer to start um fiddling with
+[1267.58 --> 1272.74]  javascript because with mean because again if you're a javascript developer um and even if you're not a
+[1272.74 --> 1279.28]  javascript developer it's not very complicated um whatever is happening on the on the service side is
+[1279.28 --> 1284.90]  really quite simple it's a model and and some routes and the stuff that's go and and that's obviously
+[1284.90 --> 1292.48]  like uh really simplifying the the picture but but in terms of what you need to uh know it's it's it's very
+[1292.48 --> 1299.14]  very limited um and and and the whole and and the fact that we chose these popular stacks kind of uh
+[1299.14 --> 1304.20]  created this this weird effect that like our community support is sort of built in and we don't
+[1304.20 --> 1310.90]  really need to invest in uh supporting each of the components on its own but rather we can only um
+[1310.90 --> 1316.36]  sort of interact with issues that are pertaining to the stack itself and the way you you connect these
+[1316.36 --> 1322.60]  parts together so that sort of makes it easier to to sort of document and and solve issues and so on
+[1322.60 --> 1327.98]  and so forth yeah unique part of your documentation with mean js is like if you read through it the
+[1327.98 --> 1333.42]  first you know i don't know 10 lines of the documentation are like go read mongo's documentation
+[1333.42 --> 1337.74]  here's a manual to use go read expresses and documentation here's a guide to use go look at
+[1337.74 --> 1343.72]  angular js here's a guide and then like once you get past all that um right it's really just like
+[1343.72 --> 1349.50]  you can read the whole documentation in one sitting and so uh you'll obviously want to yeah you'll want
+[1349.50 --> 1354.62]  to come back to it and reference things but it's neat because you guys do benefit this is an odd type
+[1354.62 --> 1361.06]  of a project because as much as you are depending on other uh pieces of open source you're also
+[1361.06 --> 1367.88]  benefiting from the other pieces of open source so one of the so the upside is you know as that piece
+[1367.88 --> 1373.26]  as mongo progresses you guys progress with it as express progresses you guys you know progress with it
+[1373.26 --> 1380.10]  what happens when something ships to mongo's you know like latest release and it and it causes a
+[1380.10 --> 1386.66]  conflict in your in mean js like how does this work so actually this just happened because um express is
+[1386.66 --> 1396.94]  about to release their the fourth version um you kind of need to to stay uh alert to those changes
+[1396.94 --> 1402.74]  this is this is our mission like our mission is to to support the different changes in the different
+[1402.74 --> 1412.74]  packages we try to make those packages um as lean as possible um um we try to use uh packages that are
+[1412.74 --> 1421.94]  widely supported and not just like um a niche packages that might be uh deserted in a few um uh months or so
+[1421.94 --> 1429.78]  uh so we have to keep up with those changes and offer uh an update to the uh to the stack itself um
+[1429.78 --> 1439.96]  um updates are in general uh a huge issue when when you offer a stack that is built from uh uh different
+[1439.96 --> 1448.32]  components and you don't you don't wrap it like in a in a sealed uh module so any update you you do
+[1448.32 --> 1453.66]  uh must be supported by the community and that's what we try to do with mean js we try to give it
+[1453.66 --> 1459.52]  a more modular approach so we can update it without uh affecting or breaking your project
+[1459.52 --> 1467.90]  um that's one of the biggest um issues we have we we we're yeah i think i think we're not we're not
+[1467.90 --> 1475.04]  even trying to really solve these bigger issues um i think with with projects like uh jsfs and that may
+[1475.04 --> 1481.10]  may or may not happen uh we might again create enough discussion about the issues that that that
+[1481.10 --> 1487.10]  pertain to all of us i mean yeah not just the mean stack but the the reen stack and the gene stack and
+[1487.10 --> 1493.04]  the amen stack or whatever stack it is we're all going to have a problem with maintaining uh backward
+[1493.04 --> 1499.74]  like our our dependencies and maintaining our uh uh backward compatibility um when we ship things that
+[1499.74 --> 1505.46]  are super dependent on other packages and i don't think we're alone in this and again right now it's
+[1505.46 --> 1512.04]  our mission to keep and keep maintaining a live very healthy stack um but we see that this issue is
+[1512.04 --> 1517.10]  going to happen for everyone so we we sort of want to create a discussion about this as well so do you
+[1517.10 --> 1522.16]  guys follow like beta or alpha releases of the other of the pieces of mean and and and like integrate
+[1522.16 --> 1532.46]  you know kind of proactively um yeah we we try to to react to uh different changes when they do happen
+[1532.46 --> 1540.92]  uh we try to predict what would happen to the stack um when the the final uh release will be um but
+[1540.92 --> 1551.14]  what we use is um luckily we have uh each dependency in the project is is installed by using a package manager
+[1551.14 --> 1562.46]  um right the amazing npm and bower um tools help us maintain the project um uh solid while we test
+[1562.46 --> 1569.04]  the different uh changes that come from from the community so before we release a new uh we before we
+[1569.04 --> 1577.08]  upgrade the versions of our dependencies we can test it without breaking the master branch of our uh project
+[1577.08 --> 1585.36]  right right so so it is it is though very unique because people are not basically building uh very
+[1585.36 --> 1589.84]  simple applications on this and like the amount of complex this is basically a web framework uh really
+[1589.84 --> 1595.96]  and and it's not it's going to be hard to really predict um 100 of you know breaking changes but we're
+[1595.96 --> 1602.92]  we are doing our best yeah for sure so you guys have a few other uh requirements which are not like
+[1602.92 --> 1608.54]  specifically mean you mentioned uh bower so you have npm well that's node basically bower grunt
+[1608.54 --> 1613.98]  uh a few other ones so these were the same kind of thing went into picking these over like grunt over
+[1613.98 --> 1619.90]  um gulp there's another one that gulp yeah just because they're like they're popular and they're
+[1619.90 --> 1625.58]  they're well supported and and those is that nature like why you you chose these yeah basically and i think
+[1625.58 --> 1631.66]  i i think that that again there might someone might want to use uh gulp and that's super cool and if that
+[1631.66 --> 1638.10]  works for them that's just another flavor of uh another full stack uh javascript uh boilerplate
+[1638.10 --> 1643.16]  and i think it's super awesome and it's just that we again just for that for those reasons alone
+[1643.16 --> 1648.26]  right just like maintain backwards compatibility and to not break with every new release we're trying to
+[1648.26 --> 1657.24]  pick the more uh supported and more uh well-founded uh um packages and we will we'll we'll visit this
+[1657.24 --> 1663.98]  uh in a couple of i don't know weeks or so when we'll uh gulp is is an amazing tool that the
+[1663.98 --> 1672.12]  the ecosystem is is growing uh really fast but and when it comes a time to choose between those two
+[1672.12 --> 1681.22]  um i think we'll revisit this um discussion again um so we need to um again react to the what the
+[1681.22 --> 1688.62]  community where the community is leaning to toward yeah once you talk a little bit about jsfs you
+[1688.62 --> 1693.62]  mentioned it and what is it and and when can we uh when will we start hearing about it
+[1693.62 --> 1703.86]  um so jsfs is like a grander idea our dream you can tell it you can we can tell it this way it's our
+[1703.86 --> 1710.14]  dream it is our dream and it sort of like tries to talk about again larger problems and issues that
+[1710.14 --> 1714.92]  you see when you're starting to deal with full stack javascript and some of them is our it some
+[1714.92 --> 1719.80]  some of those issues are uh like we talked about um you know what flavor to choose for what scenario
+[1719.80 --> 1725.12]  and we sort of want to make it a level playing field and sort of uh give a face to all these
+[1725.12 --> 1730.14]  flavors but just like maybe uh make sure that the most prominent ones uh are shown to everybody
+[1730.14 --> 1735.38]  everybody the ones that use the most popular components should be on top we think um but but on
+[1735.38 --> 1740.10]  on on a on a larger scale we sort of want to talk about again the process of managing
+[1740.10 --> 1748.32]  uh your file system and how you deal with uh deployment and how you deal with uh you know
+[1748.32 --> 1756.54]  development cycles and you know how do you integrate a product lifeline to your jsfs uh sort of workflow
+[1756.54 --> 1762.58]  and we sort of want to address the larger issues that come with uh jsfs and not and not necessarily
+[1762.58 --> 1770.08]  focus on one stack or the other um and we hope to uh see something very soon i don't i don't think
+[1770.08 --> 1776.62]  we have a a set launch date for this yeah but uh yeah cool so you mentioned that i just wanted to
+[1776.62 --> 1782.10]  make sure we we hit on that a little bit uh going back to mean uh you have the concept of modules in
+[1782.10 --> 1787.68]  mean and and i noticed the only module that you have is mean seo um where modules an original part
+[1787.68 --> 1794.08]  of mean js or is that is that a relatively new addition um it's um it's something we planned yeah it's
+[1794.08 --> 1802.56]  something we planned um a few months back uh we had a little struggle uh relaunching mean as mean js so
+[1802.56 --> 1809.58]  uh we wanted to concentrate on writing uh proper documentation but it's but it's one of our main
+[1809.58 --> 1818.62]  goals to um wrap mean with supplemental modules like the mean seo module um it's not it's not the only
+[1818.62 --> 1824.52]  model we we want to build uh there are other models we plan on building um in the next couple of weeks
+[1824.52 --> 1834.34]  we uh we're working on other tools but but modules are definitely um one of the best ways to uh support
+[1834.34 --> 1843.58]  a stack without uh breaking it like without um right making it um vulnerable too heavy yeah yeah
+[1843.58 --> 1849.24]  so what what constitutes like a module what what would what can we expect to see in modules for mean
+[1849.24 --> 1856.36]  um so we're looking at anything that's uh again cross sort of like cross stack and not necessarily
+[1856.36 --> 1864.32]  for mean per se so uh the mean seo module is uh doesn't necessarily have to work on uh mean itself
+[1864.32 --> 1871.34]  it could work on other uh spas um this is a problem that again is is very common to all of all
+[1871.34 --> 1877.42]  all javascript sbas um with crawlers and that sort of like solves it with node in the back end
+[1877.42 --> 1886.04]  um we're looking at again uh looking at um at ways to improve uh loading uh your your scripts onto the
+[1886.04 --> 1892.16]  page um compressing them uh making sure that all that process is taken care of again behind the scenes
+[1892.16 --> 1896.40]  and these are things that you don't necessarily have to care about if you just want to build a web
+[1896.40 --> 1901.22]  application but it would be better for you to have those things just to make sure your app
+[1901.22 --> 1908.02]  is working properly um so we're looking into that we're looking into um some uh maybe we're not
+[1908.02 --> 1913.92]  even uh completely sure that we'll go into a more commercial sort of side of it where we would try to
+[1913.92 --> 1920.96]  maybe build a store or anything of that nature but right now we're we're really focusing on uh features
+[1920.96 --> 1928.66]  that would make your stack uh work properly um and if we could um not not necessarily build something
+[1928.66 --> 1934.32]  that's super opinionated towards mean specifically but rather solve a larger problem for full stack
+[1934.32 --> 1940.52]  applications right that'd be great gotcha so somebody could take like ideally so mean seo is
+[1940.52 --> 1945.58]  an express middleware so anyone using express for an sba could essentially pull that in is that right
+[1945.58 --> 1953.46]  exactly we're gonna pause the show real quick and give a shout out to our sponsor harry's uh this is a
+[1953.46 --> 1960.14]  unique sponsor for the changelog we don't often get non-tech related sponsors but harry's loves the
+[1960.14 --> 1966.24]  changelog oddly enough they love open source too so it's kind of neat that uh they wanted to sponsor the
+[1966.24 --> 1971.98]  changelog but we welcome it it's it's it's different so uh here you go harry's was sparked
+[1971.98 --> 1978.60]  by a personal experience of andy and andy is one of their co-founders and his experience that he had
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+[1993.58 --> 1999.90]  supplies uh and this is in his words as first person i went to the drugstore i waited 10 minutes
+[1999.90 --> 2005.48]  for someone to unlock the case where the razors were being held and i bought a four pack of blades and
+[2005.48 --> 2010.64]  buying and i bought some shaving cream it wasn't the best purchase experience to say the least and i
+[2010.64 --> 2018.74]  walked out and looked into my bag and i had a receipt for over 25 bucks worth of products and brands
+[2018.74 --> 2025.58]  that really didn't speak to me as a customer i just felt like there had to be a better way and
+[2025.58 --> 2032.26]  harry's is focused on providing guys a great shaving experience for a fraction of the price
+[2032.26 --> 2037.94]  of normal competitors you know i have to say myself i've been using the gillette mach 3 for
+[2037.94 --> 2046.36]  i don't know since i was 17 i guess i mean forever and i'm using harry's now harry's is awesome it's a
+[2046.36 --> 2052.86]  clean product design it looks phenomenal my wife uh would have bought it for me had she known about it
+[2052.86 --> 2059.82]  prior to me finding out about it but um it's great it's um it's high quality the blades are engineered in
+[2059.82 --> 2066.20]  their own factory uh in in germany for sharpness and strength uh blazer half the price of competitors
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+[2073.36 --> 2079.00]  my harry's shaving kit it's awesome um and it's shipped right to your door the look and feel the
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+[2085.78 --> 2096.00]  and use the promo code changelog to save five bucks on your first purchase harry's.com h-a-r-r-y-s.com
+[2096.00 --> 2103.10]  so looking through your changelog uh i think the biggest again going kind of not to hammer on the
+[2103.10 --> 2107.72]  same point but like uh switching things out in an application like this is interesting to me i think
+[2107.72 --> 2115.46]  the biggest change i see was when you you replace jade with swig and um uh you you kind of hit on that a
+[2115.46 --> 2121.16]  little bit why why did you do that and like what kind of conversations did you all have to have to
+[2121.16 --> 2130.84]  like decide to pull the trigger on that okay so um templating engine um is a really um nice discussion
+[2130.84 --> 2140.08]  we had with the community um the the community of of mean uh does have different preferences
+[2140.08 --> 2148.92]  for different um they do prefer a certain um template engine we started with jade because it was most the
+[2148.92 --> 2157.00]  most popular template engine um we moved this week because it was it's it is faster and uses html syntax
+[2157.00 --> 2165.52]  um again the um to help develop developers um lower their learning curve of getting into min
+[2165.52 --> 2176.48]  um we're actually working on a generator which is one of the most uh um um revisited issue request like
+[2176.48 --> 2182.82]  uh people are asking for a proper generator and that generator will support different um render
+[2182.82 --> 2189.58]  engines especially when you consider that most of the views you use in in a min application are
+[2189.58 --> 2198.58]  basically uh angular views and not uh a back-end views uh that which uses uh template engines like jade
+[2198.58 --> 2208.00]  era um hogan or any other template engine um but but what we get a lot of opinions about it we discuss
+[2208.00 --> 2215.00]  about it a lot um we move to swig again because it it is faster uh but we plan to support different uh
+[2215.00 --> 2220.74]  view engines it's kind of interesting that you mention it because like um that was like one of
+[2220.74 --> 2225.52]  the reasons we were talking about jsfs to begin with is because we saw that people were like
+[2225.52 --> 2231.66]  feverishly um just changing the the the template engine yeah really a sore a sore subject and people
+[2231.66 --> 2236.40]  were like really up in arms about it and we sort of figured that like maybe a better way to go about
+[2236.40 --> 2242.58]  it would be to not necessarily decide but rather supply a generator that could uh just open a new stack
+[2242.58 --> 2250.08]  um with whatever templating engine you want because anyway in mean we really don't uh don't use a lot
+[2250.08 --> 2256.36]  of uh server site templating like almost said so it we weren't really uh very very opinionated but we
+[2256.36 --> 2263.18]  did have our opinion and again the generator should maybe uh help with solve this problem yeah gotcha
+[2263.18 --> 2268.36]  so you talk about the generator uh one of the questions how does somebody get started with mean what how
+[2268.36 --> 2272.56]  would you recommend to somebody comes up to you and says i'm interested in you know
+[2272.56 --> 2280.18]  building an spa how do i get started with mean um i think the first thing would be to uh look at
+[2280.18 --> 2284.96]  look at the website um go to the website start reading the documentation it would be really easy
+[2284.96 --> 2291.12]  to just download it um uh npm install which would install all your dependencies and you can run the
+[2291.12 --> 2297.24]  server and sort of look around the code and i think for me for me personally i really learned well
+[2297.24 --> 2303.82]  example um we included a full stack example of an article um so you can see all sorts of things that
+[2303.82 --> 2310.72]  you could do from like the point where you define your model um through the routes and then the angular
+[2310.72 --> 2315.58]  service and the views etc and you can just like follow through the stack and sort of look at how
+[2315.58 --> 2322.62]  it's implemented and then just play around with it maybe implement your own uh stack um it would be
+[2322.62 --> 2327.58]  really easy to do when we have the generator out because all you would have to really do is pick a
+[2327.58 --> 2332.62]  name and then set the structure and then it would basically be reflected to you from the server in
+[2332.62 --> 2339.32]  your in your angular side with a server service very very easily so if if you do have you i think you
+[2339.32 --> 2344.90]  to start using mean you do need some sort of a background a bit in node like a very basic
+[2344.90 --> 2350.16]  understanding of what it is and how npm works maybe um and you do need some some sort of knowledge
+[2350.16 --> 2356.24]  um uh and and maybe even experience with angular um i wouldn't necessarily recommend this to someone
+[2356.24 --> 2362.14]  who doesn't know any of these um at this point but uh if you do have that kind of uh knowledge and
+[2362.14 --> 2367.76]  then for sure i think if you if you just download it and and walk through the stack and all of its parts
+[2367.76 --> 2373.22]  it's pretty self-explanatory and if that's not enough then then almost has really worked and
+[2373.22 --> 2378.80]  uh really hard on uh the documentation on the website and lastly and maybe most importantly
+[2378.80 --> 2384.96]  we are here to answer anyone's questions and we will do our our our best to really um reply to
+[2384.96 --> 2390.56]  issues and we really encourage everyone to ask and talk to us because we just love it and yeah i think
+[2390.56 --> 2394.98]  one of the best things that happened to on a personal level to me and i think to almost as well was
+[2394.98 --> 2400.30]  seeing the amazing reaction from the community and that's something that this is my first uh open
+[2400.30 --> 2405.54]  source project um that i'm really committed to and i feel that the community support engagement
+[2405.54 --> 2410.82]  has really made a difference and really made it worth my while um to actually do it and it's super
+[2410.82 --> 2416.68]  fun and people are awesome really best part of my day is discussing with developers what what they build
+[2416.68 --> 2425.54]  well about the projects they do it's like answering those emails is like so it makes you feel like what
+[2425.54 --> 2430.72]  you do matters you see people creating their dream project and they they ask you for such a simple
+[2430.72 --> 2439.90]  question such simple questions and and you can really help them get through like right um so we are
+[2439.90 --> 2448.78]  pretty communicative about um supporting uh the community um and we do and we'll we'll make the
+[2448.78 --> 2455.76]  documentation better i promise you that accepting forks yeah yeah accepting forks we're totally
+[2455.76 --> 2461.98]  accepting forks yeah and yeah and if you want to talk to us about uh your own uh javascript full stack
+[2461.98 --> 2469.38]  flavor uh we totally encourage you to do that and we are totally non-denominational so whatever whatever
+[2469.38 --> 2474.62]  kind of flavor you want to bring on to the table um i think we are going to limit um the scope to just
+[2474.62 --> 2479.60]  javascript and not other languages at this point because otherwise it'll just be a big mess yeah um
+[2479.60 --> 2485.30]  but yeah if you do have a stack we would love to hear from you so one of the things almost that you
+[2485.30 --> 2489.08]  mentioned was you know it's like your favorite part of the day is answering emails about what people
+[2489.08 --> 2494.12]  are building um anything that we know of like that that you could tell me that people are using
+[2494.12 --> 2501.60]  meanjs in production to get started with um i don't know if i can disclose this information
+[2501.60 --> 2508.24]  because no they trust me they they show me their projects they show me their their code i i don't know
+[2508.24 --> 2517.94]  if they if i would like to um disclose their projects um i've seen people create uh simple applications
+[2517.94 --> 2526.36]  um uh and an akaton application or something like that uh and i i've seen people um restructure
+[2526.36 --> 2536.02]  uh their uh their companies 20 years old um stack uh in min um i'm actually helping a couple of
+[2536.02 --> 2544.66]  companies doing so um um um but uh what we are about to open a built with section in our site and we
+[2544.66 --> 2551.06]  will and and we'll invite people to share what they're doing um but i've seen it so we'll look
+[2551.06 --> 2555.10]  out for that yeah yeah look out for that i don't want to get you in any trouble here
+[2555.10 --> 2563.86]  yeah yeah better not yeah awesome so uh for our guests that are just listening or for new listeners
+[2563.86 --> 2568.64]  to the show we ask our guests the same questions uh at the end of every show so we'll go ahead and
+[2568.64 --> 2574.94]  ask you them now the first one um i'll ask you uh roe first is for a call to action for the community
+[2574.94 --> 2584.14]  um a call action a call to arms would maybe be um just build your stacks uh and and just
+[2584.14 --> 2590.62]  be involved in the discussion really um let your voice be heard um we really want to hear from you
+[2590.62 --> 2595.16]  and we really want to hear uh what you think about our stack and if you have different ideas about how
+[2595.16 --> 2601.64]  it should work or different stack we'd totally love to hear about it what about you amas um let us
+[2601.64 --> 2607.30]  know what we're doing wrong i think i guess um and how would somebody do this through github issues
+[2607.30 --> 2613.18]  yeah use the github issues on twitter we have a community section in our website you can use twitter
+[2613.18 --> 2621.16]  facebook you can uh personally uh um drop me an email or something like that you can use the google group
+[2621.16 --> 2629.34]  um we're we're making ourselves available in in in an irc channel um but i think the best way to do it
+[2629.34 --> 2635.62]  is to just open an issue uh in the github repository um asking us to change something
+[2635.62 --> 2641.18]  or something like that okay cool yeah uh amas if you weren't doing this what would you be doing
+[2641.18 --> 2649.82]  instead oh i i would surf the amazing beaches of um sri lanka every day awesome for like 12 hours
+[2649.82 --> 2655.58]  we've we've actually had a few people say surfing so uh so yeah that seems to be a common trend
+[2655.58 --> 2663.04]  amongst uh developers what about you rowey um i'd probably be a musician i think okay what do you
+[2663.04 --> 2670.02]  play yeah i play flute and piano go to rowey's soundcloud page listen to what no no no not yet i've been
+[2670.02 --> 2676.12]  experimenting with like no no encourage him encourage him he's making really nice music um
+[2676.12 --> 2686.46]  that's rowey schwaber cohen on soundcloud yeah i just thought it's sorry man that's fine that's awesome
+[2686.46 --> 2693.02]  yeah sorry your music career begins now uh amas you might need to be looking for a replacement for
+[2693.02 --> 2698.76]  mean js so nothing's gonna break this relationship don't worry we've been through a lot
+[2698.76 --> 2709.56]  um a programmer hero oh that's a tough one that's an easy one for me uh douglas crockford for sure
+[2709.56 --> 2715.72]  yeah um he's the good the good parts the good parts yeah for sure he's the guy who made uh javascript
+[2715.72 --> 2723.18]  all make sense to me and i have watched all of all of his lectures on youtube um read all his books he's
+[2723.18 --> 2729.32]  just an awesome dude yeah for sure any for you amas and amas you could uh you could even say uh
+[2729.32 --> 2736.64]  your parents we've had that before yeah oh that's um i think dennis ritchie which wasn't really
+[2736.64 --> 2745.18]  appreciated at this time um he died the same day uh the same week steve jobs died uh invented the
+[2745.18 --> 2752.54]  language and and contributed to the unix um it was really cool i like those those ad guys
+[2752.54 --> 2762.22]  in the duo of was and steve jobs i i'm i'm certainly the was um kind of guy yeah that's good
+[2762.22 --> 2767.64]  yeah they need support too that's good yeah yeah totally they do cool stuff awesome they do cool
+[2767.64 --> 2774.16]  stuff they they just do it because they like to do it not any other yeah yeah yeah i mean you when
+[2774.16 --> 2778.86]  you kind of start reading into a lot of that history you see that it's it's generally the people
+[2778.86 --> 2783.48]  with more moxie that become famous and not necessarily i mean not not to take anything
+[2783.48 --> 2788.28]  away from steve jobs yeah of course i'm old but um that you know he has a moxie and that's kind of
+[2788.28 --> 2794.10]  what what propels him to like super stardom status versus you know the uh the wazis of the world
+[2794.10 --> 2799.86]  and was he so nice he loves to give you yeah yeah he's a nice guy he's a really nice guy
+[2799.86 --> 2807.04]  awesome yeah well i wanted to say thanks so much for joining us on the show again it was uh
+[2807.04 --> 2812.66]  amas aviv and roe schwaber cohen talking about mean js which uh sounds like it's it's it's just
+[2812.66 --> 2817.66]  getting started but it's got some tremendous uh movement behind it and and i'm excited to kind of
+[2817.66 --> 2822.58]  see where it goes um you you mentioned this before but what is the twitter for mean js that people can
+[2822.58 --> 2830.74]  follow uh it's mean js org the website is mean js dot org um we're mean js on facebook and github
+[2830.74 --> 2836.02]  um we hope twitter would give us the mean js name because it's abandoned for some reason
+[2836.02 --> 2844.94]  uh but for now it's mean js org um awesome yeah well we'll be back next week with another show uh sorry
+[2844.94 --> 2851.26]  that we have been absent a little bit i've been starting a new uh a new job and so it's been kind
+[2851.26 --> 2856.50]  hectic so uh for our listeners we will be back next week and we'll be uh weekly from here on out so
+[2856.50 --> 2861.46]  until next week let's say goodbye goodbye thank you guys thanks a lot guys
+[2881.26 --> 2888.64]  uh

Node Black Friday at Walmart_transcript.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,637 @@
+[0.00 --> 14.40]  welcome back everyone this is the changelog and i'm your host adam stekowiak we're a member
+[14.40 --> 21.94]  supportive blog podcast and weekly email covering what's fresh and what's new in open source check
+[21.94 --> 28.58]  out the blog at the changelog.com our past shows at 5by5.tv slash changelog and subscribe to our
+[28.58 --> 33.22]  weekly email it's called the changelog weekly we ship it on saturdays you don't want to miss it
+[33.22 --> 39.80]  and you can subscribe at the changelog.com slash weekly this show is hosted by myself adam
+[39.80 --> 46.22]  stekowiak and andrew thorpe now we recorded this show in particular before the new year didn't have
+[46.22 --> 50.82]  time to publish it before the new year but at the tail end you'll hear andrew mention taking some
+[50.82 --> 57.54]  time off that's already happened we missed you we're back we're excited it's 2014 and this is
+[57.54 --> 65.42]  episode 116 and it's sponsored by digital ocean fresh books and top tile we'll tell you a bit
+[65.42 --> 69.72]  more about fresh books and top tile later on the show but our our good friends over digital ocean
+[69.72 --> 75.10]  have some cool stuff happening they're nearing their millionth droplet and to celebrate they're
+[75.10 --> 81.30]  giving away ten thousand dollars in hosting credit ten thousand dollars in hosting credit you heard it
+[81.30 --> 88.82]  right to a lucky user who hits this milestone and there are three ways you can qualify number one
+[88.82 --> 94.38]  you got to be the user who spins up the millionth droplet so that's that's number one number two you've
+[94.38 --> 100.88]  got to include your twitter handle in the droplets host name so when you create the droplet you got to
+[100.88 --> 107.42]  put your twitter handle in that host name and number three you have to tweet the digital ocean with the
+[107.42 --> 115.10]  hashtag millionth droplet for example i'm going to be the millionth droplet on digital ocean that would
+[115.10 --> 121.58]  qualify you if you do all three things you're in it so try the ocean today for free using our promo
+[121.58 --> 129.26]  code changelog sent me that's changelog sent me that'll get you a ten dollar hosting credit as well as
+[129.26 --> 135.54]  as well as a chance i guess to potentially be the moon's droplet so good luck to you but head to
+[135.54 --> 142.12]  digitalocean.com to get started and now on to the show we're joined today by aaron hammer to talk
+[142.12 --> 149.90]  about happy a server framework for node.js and node black friday when walmart went node for black
+[149.90 --> 154.12]  friday so aaron welcome to the show why don't you give us a introduction of who you are and what you do
+[154.12 --> 162.50]  hey uh glad to be here i am uh the node uh lead architect at uh walmart uh i'm part of the mobile group
+[162.50 --> 171.34]  and my team is uh basically focused on um moving the uh existing uh mobile services uh infrastructure
+[171.34 --> 178.62]  from uh some legacy java stuff to node and uh we basically drive all the uh all the api for the
+[178.62 --> 187.68]  mobile clients so what did you do before uh working at at walmart uh immediately before i was about
+[187.68 --> 197.32]  uh three years at yahoo um focusing mostly on standards and focusing on interop and and um
+[197.32 --> 204.92]  open web i was one of the uh the founder of the open web foundation and uh did a lot of ipr work
+[204.92 --> 210.70]  um in terms of uh cla and agreement there and uh before that i spent about 10 years on wall street
+[210.70 --> 217.42]  uh building uh high frequency trading systems and uh yeah that that's that kind of covers the last 15 years
+[217.42 --> 225.00]  so you've definitely uh been deep into the business side of things um i've done a whole bunch of
+[225.00 --> 230.88]  different uh different things and my my uh philosophy in life is that life is all about uh collecting uh
+[230.88 --> 238.26]  experiences so i i tend to get bored with things uh and just switch to completely unrelated fields
+[238.26 --> 244.26]  yeah so going from finance to you know just consumer web to retail well let's talk a little bit about
+[244.26 --> 249.78]  the retail so uh what was behind the decision for walmart to to go to node and and what was that process
+[249.78 --> 260.16]  like uh it wasn't it wasn't a very intense process uh to be honest basically two years ago uh ben and
+[260.16 --> 270.24]  dion joined uh walmart mobile and they were looking for ways to kind of move it to the uh 21st century
+[270.24 --> 279.14]  um from some some really uh old stacks on java it was using and what was clear is that we're not going
+[279.14 --> 284.40]  to be rewriting all the all the back-end services but we are going to be building a new orchestration
+[284.40 --> 291.40]  layer that's going to talk to a whole bunch of uh new and legacy systems uh some of them uh you know
+[291.40 --> 298.12]  using you know like as400 and and you know offering you you know awesome soap apis and others
+[298.12 --> 304.04]  use a little bit more modern with xml stuff and and so we don't want to implement any of that on the
+[304.04 --> 309.16]  mobile clients and what you want to do you want to build an orchestration layer that kind of abstract
+[309.16 --> 316.54]  all the crap in the back um or the good stuff in the back and then provides a uniform api to the mobile
+[316.54 --> 323.46]  clients so we were looking at different technologies and we we just felt that node was the right choice
+[323.46 --> 329.78]  that uh an orchestration layer that is mostly doing network uh it's basically a glorified proxy
+[329.78 --> 336.46]  uh with some data manipulation or data transformation but it's not you know no calculation you're not
+[336.46 --> 342.44]  pricing anything you're not uh you're not managing a complicated state um that that's all done by the
+[342.44 --> 348.74]  upstream you know account management and and those so so node looked like a good choice and so we
+[348.74 --> 354.42]  just went ahead and made a big bet that it's going to work out so you obviously walmart's one of the
+[354.42 --> 359.94]  biggest you know companies in the world and um in my experience with larger companies it can be you
+[359.94 --> 365.42]  know it's a lot harder to move a big ship right than a than a small boat and so what kind of like pain
+[365.42 --> 371.14]  inside of walmart if any did you experience when you're presenting this you know this new newer
+[371.14 --> 376.28]  emerging technology as an alternative to like a reliable uh stack that's that's been around for a while
+[376.28 --> 384.22]  so it's still there's still resistance coming from other teams uh within mobile it it wasn't it was
+[384.22 --> 391.26]  never an issue because uh mobile started out as a as a labs like environment where our mandate was to
+[391.26 --> 397.34]  experiment and try new things and use whatever technology we want uh like you know we were already
+[397.34 --> 405.48]  introducing new things if it's uh ios apps or android apps uh to to the existing uh it stack that was used
+[405.48 --> 410.38]  there so that that wasn't a big deal but then going to the rest of the organization you know when we
+[410.38 --> 416.56]  went to the uh the it folks and the data centers to try to get some some machines we can run it on
+[416.56 --> 423.06]  uh one of the first bomb we hit is that the um the version of solaris that walmart was running at the time
+[423.06 --> 429.44]  um could not support node we couldn't compile node on that operating system and so it took some time for us
+[429.44 --> 435.52]  to convince uh enough people to get us some you know linux boxes or smart os boxes that we can actually
+[435.52 --> 441.12]  uh run stuff so it was more once you start interacting with the rest of the it organization
+[441.12 --> 446.92]  and it wasn't as much pushback as just uh we were asking them to do new things that they have never
+[446.92 --> 452.78]  done before uh and those you know those things takes a lot of time um and if you think about uh walmart
+[452.78 --> 460.26]  runs all i think it's like 17 countries now um so they're running all their operations um all from
+[460.26 --> 466.68]  the same set of data centers so you talk about the retail stores and the online all coming from pretty
+[466.68 --> 473.56]  much the same same spot so you can imagine the change control in those data centers is is quite
+[473.56 --> 478.66]  insane right um and for a good reason uh you know you're talking about you know if you if you take
+[478.66 --> 485.28]  down those data centers in the u.s you're disrupting uh food supply for about 40 of the country so it's
+[485.92 --> 491.40]  the the scale and the size and the magnitude of any change you're making is is significant so that
+[491.40 --> 498.58]  that's still the issue um but it's been very manageable yeah so for for walmart mobile i guess
+[498.58 --> 503.46]  and i'm a little i'm not i wouldn't say i'm fuzzy i just to i think i've made some assumptions but
+[503.46 --> 509.58]  you guys did you launch the node client for black friday or when did that launch actually happen
+[509.58 --> 517.78]  we deployed our so so we we are working with a proxy strategy we're basically the idea is to stick
+[517.78 --> 524.40]  node as a as a dumb proxy between the mobile clients and the existing services and then slowly
+[524.40 --> 530.34]  as uh based on business priorities and other requirements start to hijack endpoints at the
+[530.34 --> 537.12]  proxy and implement them in node so we've started doing that um but we're still um proxying a large
+[537.12 --> 544.58]  amount of the traffic through node to the upstream services so we first rolled this out in april and
+[544.58 --> 552.02]  uh we kind of ramped up to 100 of all mobile traffic around june and we've been running with all mobile
+[552.02 --> 559.80]  traffic going through node uh since june the problem was that uh we had uh we suffered from a pretty
+[559.80 --> 567.38]  awful memory leak um that caused us basically to have to you know restart the services all the time
+[567.38 --> 576.34]  and um so we were never sure up until the day of black friday that that our system is actually ready for
+[576.34 --> 583.22]  for that capacity um and we had mitigation we had other plans we had failovers so so it wasn't like oh
+[583.22 --> 587.94]  if this doesn't work we're we don't have mobile uh mobile services for black friday that clearly is
+[587.94 --> 594.68]  not going to be acceptable right um but we really didn't know up until the the day of uh how well
+[594.68 --> 599.10]  this is going to perform so how well did it perform oh it was the most boring thing ever
+[599.10 --> 604.50]  you had a tweet i can't remember exactly but you it's something along those lines that the servers
+[604.50 --> 608.12]  are bored out of their mind yeah the servers are bored out of their minds what you said that's that
+[608.12 --> 614.12]  was uh pretty intense and then you were also doing a lot of live tweeting at that time too like
+[614.12 --> 620.02]  keeping a lot of nerds uh on their toes i'm sure just kind of like watching your progress and i know
+[620.02 --> 625.66]  i was shopping and watching at the same time i just was watching the you know node bf was the was the
+[625.66 --> 630.30]  hashtag on twitter we linked out to it and we'll put this in the show notes too so y'all can catch up
+[630.30 --> 635.94]  those listening but node uh had the servers that were that they were bored so what was that like
+[635.94 --> 644.22]  i mean the servers were doing nothing uh they're averaged about 0.75 percent cpu that's not 75
+[644.22 --> 651.14]  that's 0.75 and by the way we had a we had a bug in our monitoring system for a while where
+[651.14 --> 656.76]  uh we thought that the range was zero to one and we were really worried for a while because we were
+[656.76 --> 662.52]  constantly hitting 50 to 60 cpu and then we started investigating like what is going on i mean that
+[662.52 --> 668.04]  that we're not doing anything why is the cpu so high it should really be like 20 um and then we
+[668.04 --> 675.76]  realized that it was a unit uh bug and we were actually at 0.5 percent cpu so that's good yeah it
+[675.76 --> 683.66]  was very very uneventful um but uh no the node process was just sitting there doing nothing uh memory
+[683.66 --> 691.32]  was completely stable uh people have uh nicknamed my uh rss charts is uh my um um um
+[691.32 --> 698.96]  lasagna charts oh yeah where basically it just looks like a bunch of like you know swiggly but
+[698.96 --> 706.04]  flat flat lines trending lines yeah um yeah no it it was really really boring and and as the night
+[706.04 --> 711.82]  progressed and and you know my team was all up uh everybody was coming up with suggestions of how
+[711.82 --> 718.30]  we can uh just just gently poke the servers to make something break just to kind of keep it a little
+[718.30 --> 722.68]  a little more interesting everybody has their own suggestion of what we can do so i mean like you
+[722.68 --> 729.06]  said black friday is like the biggest retail day you know of the year and you guys what were you
+[729.06 --> 733.80]  planning for you said you had no idea what was going to happen but i mean really no idea or were you
+[733.80 --> 741.86]  hoping for the best or like did what was in y'all's mind um so i mean the the industry uh as a whole
+[741.86 --> 747.70]  the average is basically 40 to 60 percent of annual revenues online happen between thanksgiving and
+[747.70 --> 752.62]  black and between thanksgiving and christmas which if you think about it for a business that's that's
+[752.62 --> 761.50]  awful it's insane yeah and if you have a day downtime um with uh black friday and cyber monday being the
+[761.50 --> 769.62]  the two busiest uh shopping days although now with all the retailers thanksgiving has become uh the
+[769.62 --> 775.36]  number one shopping day it's a little crazy but um that that's that's where we've seen the most
+[775.36 --> 780.24]  traffic especially since everybody's uh looking up the deals not necessarily buying but they're looking
+[780.24 --> 787.10]  it up so we had the business every year the business gives us estimates of how much traffic uh what's
+[787.10 --> 793.84]  the multiplier going to be from both last year and from um like from september of the same year yeah
+[793.84 --> 800.58]  and so we were looking at uh at you know two three four times multipliers in terms of volume
+[800.58 --> 806.74]  but more than anything we really didn't know how well the upstream services are going to perform
+[806.74 --> 813.32]  so if you think about it node sits between the clients and the uh and the java services and
+[813.32 --> 819.44]  because node is doing such a great job managing the income track the incoming traffic it's such a great
+[819.44 --> 827.66]  uh little executable for managing sockets it's basically acting as a queue so load balancer is
+[827.66 --> 832.72]  basically sending traffic to the node processes and then they are trying to proxy it over to java and
+[832.72 --> 838.16]  if java is behind and starting to get slow it doesn't really add much load on the node process in terms
+[838.16 --> 842.04]  of cpu because it's just because it's a non-blocking system so it doesn't do anything it's just sit there
+[842.04 --> 847.76]  waiting for socket events and no socket events are coming back but what is happening is that we are
+[847.76 --> 852.42]  growing in memory because all we were keeping we keep holding more and more and more sessions in
+[852.42 --> 859.94]  memory until the java stuff is ready and in that environment basically node becomes a queue and if
+[859.94 --> 865.16]  java gets very very slow then notice you know the queue gets very very big until at some point it blows
+[865.16 --> 870.48]  up so we didn't really know what to expect in terms of how big is this queue going to be how how well is
+[870.48 --> 876.82]  the memory going to perform so we we basically dumped a lot of extra capacity we ended up i think with
+[876.82 --> 883.34]  about six times more capacity than we actually needed um which really contributed to like the
+[883.34 --> 889.42]  completely boring yeah exactly performance so this was then a major success right for you and your team
+[889.42 --> 899.06]  this this was huge i think um i think we kind of proved the entire stack but also like my the quote
+[899.06 --> 904.50]  i've been using uh privately in conversation with the node core team and and you know a few other
+[904.50 --> 912.32]  companies like joint and uh um voxer um i kept saying like i don't want to be the uh i don't
+[912.32 --> 916.08]  want to be what twitter was for rails i don't want to be the the you know rails doesn't know
+[916.08 --> 922.62]  yeah of node um because even though like you know it was largely bullshit at the time um
+[922.62 --> 929.36]  it it did cause quite a significant damage to to rails adoption um you know once once twitter was
+[929.36 --> 933.82]  having problems a lot of people uh there was like this this backlash and people were going back to
+[933.82 --> 941.98]  php because you know facebook was on php and that was clearly much better yeah um so so i i was like
+[941.98 --> 946.64]  i'm not going to be that guy like like i'm not going to be the number one you know headline on hacker
+[946.64 --> 955.24]  news saying you know no doesn't scale uh just ask walmart so i was i was really freaking out about that
+[955.24 --> 961.22]  and and that was kind of that was like the back of my mind um as we were approaching this yeah so we
+[961.22 --> 967.10]  kind of threw more capacity at it we were like watching it um like everybody on the node core team
+[967.10 --> 971.08]  was like following it throughout the night like all waiting for like anything if anything goes wrong
+[971.08 --> 977.22]  to jump on irse with us and like help us fix it live um it was really like you know it it meant a lot
+[977.22 --> 981.16]  to the community as a whole yeah it seemed like it i mean that's really the way i took it because
+[981.16 --> 988.44]  we tweeted said we tweeted uh that night uh follow um node bf on twitter and lots of retweets came
+[988.44 --> 993.76]  from that and i think your tweet alone got 82 favorites and 157 retweets and it just seemed like a lot of
+[993.76 --> 998.24]  people were just like watching real time and a lot of people who were involved in node just kind of like
+[998.24 --> 1004.58]  you know behind the scenes cheering to make sure that you know everything had gone successfully for you
+[1004.58 --> 1009.66]  yeah my uh my follower count on twitter jumped by like a thousand for the night
+[1009.66 --> 1016.14]  um it's crazy it was it was uh it was quite funny but it's a you know it's like you said it's big for
+[1016.14 --> 1020.56]  the community right i mean people that like node they want to see node succeed and so it's not just
+[1020.56 --> 1025.96]  big for you and your team because you're proving an emerging technology to a to a you know a very large
+[1025.96 --> 1031.12]  company but it is it's it's it's big for the whole community because like you said if if something
+[1031.12 --> 1035.94]  would have fallen flat on its face whether it was your fault or you know an inherent problem with node
+[1035.94 --> 1041.28]  then you're right the the rumors would have been node can't scale and i mean you still hear that
+[1041.28 --> 1045.24]  every once in a while when people are talking about rails you know just when they haven't you know
+[1045.24 --> 1049.30]  been maybe not in the community for the last couple years but you'll still you know every once in a
+[1049.30 --> 1053.46]  hear somebody say rails can't scale and you know that that kind of sticks with you so you're right it's
+[1053.46 --> 1057.80]  a it's a good thing for the whole community not just the the walmart node branch you know
+[1057.80 --> 1066.72]  yeah this this was a big deal and it also uh at node summit i gave a talk but basically my plan for
+[1066.72 --> 1072.30]  node summit was to give a talk about black friday of course there was nothing to talk about so i
+[1072.30 --> 1079.00]  basically gave a talk about how everything went wrong all the way until black friday and uh we only got
+[1079.00 --> 1088.76]  the the fix for the for the infamous memory leak in um the week off like we actually that that was we
+[1088.76 --> 1094.78]  and we couldn't even verify because we're doing daily uh daily releases so we we never actually got to
+[1094.78 --> 1099.54]  observe the server over you know over like 48 hours to see that the memory leak was actually fixed
+[1099.54 --> 1107.78]  so it was all very theoretical and we so that was part of the the thing is that if the memory leak was
+[1107.78 --> 1114.58]  still going on uh it required us to restart our servers every seven days and we were expecting you
+[1114.58 --> 1120.68]  know up to 10x yes traffic and well that means we can have to restart the servers more than once a day
+[1120.68 --> 1126.94]  yeah and on black friday you don't really want to touch your servers right um so so it was all very
+[1126.94 --> 1132.06]  suspenseful but it was kind of like uh edge of your seat suspenseful but boredom so did you have somebody
+[1132.06 --> 1136.02]  like working on that memory leak all the time trying to find it or what happened with that
+[1136.02 --> 1143.92]  um so we found a memory leak uh well we we saw the pattern of the memory leak back in uh april already
+[1143.92 --> 1152.08]  and then by june it was i i was convinced the memory leak um and it was uh it was one of those things
+[1152.08 --> 1156.98]  where like i i i argue with everybody including my own team that it is a memory leak and they're all
+[1156.98 --> 1162.34]  like no it must be something else uh and i said no it's an it's a node memory leak and they're like no
+[1162.34 --> 1165.50]  this it can't be no then really because if somebody else would report it right like other people are
+[1165.50 --> 1171.84]  using node in production and they're not seeing any of that behavior and so we end up spending quite
+[1171.84 --> 1176.94]  a lot of effort uh putting quite a lot of monitoring into the system where i was basically spending
+[1176.94 --> 1181.92]  three months trying to find correlation between the memory leak when memory was was spiking to when
+[1181.92 --> 1188.40]  something else was going on so we added monitors for uh client disconnects and response times and
+[1188.40 --> 1196.26]  uh concurrent connections and just connections per uh per second and like really like we have we we build
+[1196.26 --> 1202.38]  in so much monitoring into it so we can start comparing it and nothing correlated just absolutely
+[1202.38 --> 1208.62]  nothing we knew the more traffic we get overall the more leak we get but it's not the leaking is not
+[1208.62 --> 1214.32]  happening when the traffic is coming in it's just that there's a correlation between the overall daily
+[1214.32 --> 1221.28]  pattern and at some point i found a few clues that i had some ideas and i said okay we're going to
+[1221.28 --> 1225.78]  make a configuration change that is going to double the amount of http client calls that we're making
+[1225.78 --> 1231.64]  and uh and i said and watch we'll do that and the memory leak will double itself and people were like
+[1231.64 --> 1236.20]  kept saying like no no it's not gonna happen and of course memory leak doubled itself
+[1236.20 --> 1245.16]  uh which helped us you know zoom zoom into the exact um spot where we're we're leaking and i was able
+[1245.16 --> 1250.38]  to isolate that and then i wrote a little program that that showed it but it took about 12 hours of it
+[1250.38 --> 1257.82]  to run to even show you a slight leak and it was all from what closing file descriptors no it ended up
+[1257.82 --> 1264.80]  being a missing uh handle scope in the c++ side of node in what it was one it was one line missing
+[1264.80 --> 1273.60]  a node uh in one function um it was basically two c++ words that was the bug and it caused a four in some
+[1273.60 --> 1281.22]  cases it caused a four bytes leak per http request yeah so that takes a little while to add up but that
+[1281.22 --> 1290.18]  definitely ends up uh yeah and so and at the time we were leaking about um eight eight megs a day
+[1290.18 --> 1297.78]  so so we we got it really really low by mitigating it in other ways but um couldn't really solve it and
+[1297.78 --> 1303.66]  then uh uh um tj fontaine from the node core team um was able to uh he spent like three weeks on it
+[1303.66 --> 1311.26]  um we took some crazy stuff and there's a there's a great blog post on the um on the joint uh blog
+[1311.26 --> 1320.10]  uh detailing exactly uh uh what tj uh uh used and and it's kind of like uh a little bit like uh
+[1320.10 --> 1325.48]  black magic so that's interesting the blog post though let me ask you what was that experience
+[1325.48 --> 1329.94]  like going back and forth with the the node core team and and you know trying to prove this and
+[1329.94 --> 1335.86]  how receptive were they to you like you know pointing this stuff out so when we first reported it uh
+[1335.86 --> 1342.88]  back in like june or july it was the uh people have been quite dismissive um where basically the
+[1342.88 --> 1347.76]  the theory was like there is no way we have such a gigantic memory leak and you're the only one seeing
+[1347.76 --> 1353.18]  it um but when at the end when i was able to actually come and say hey here's a little bit of
+[1353.18 --> 1358.20]  node code and if you run it it will show you the leak uh and then of course they ran and they're like
+[1358.20 --> 1361.68]  no we're not seeing any leak and i said like just just leave it alone for 12 hours and come back to
+[1361.68 --> 1365.66]  it tomorrow and they did and they opened it up and it's like no it still doesn't look like a leak
+[1365.66 --> 1371.46]  it's like oh go ahead and plot your trend line yeah on that on that chart and then they did that
+[1371.46 --> 1375.18]  and i was like oh yeah you know what it looks like there's something going on there and then as they
+[1375.18 --> 1381.06]  edit more instrumentation they can actually start seeing um what was actually happening is uh
+[1381.06 --> 1389.68]  uh v8 was building a gigantic array of undefined which is where the four bytes came from basically it
+[1389.68 --> 1395.52]  was pointing to the canonical undefined reference within the v8 uh it was just building a gigantic
+[1395.52 --> 1401.32]  array of undefined that was never we're never getting cleaned right so because of the so you
+[1401.32 --> 1408.82]  said it was fixed the week of is that right it was fixed about two two weeks before um uh but uh there
+[1408.82 --> 1416.06]  was some uh some build issue with the uh smart os distribution of the new version of node and so
+[1416.06 --> 1422.52]  uh we missed a stress test because it was like a few hours late and then after that we were busy with
+[1422.52 --> 1428.38]  a few other things so we were we ended up putting it uh a week before and uh and crossing our fingers
+[1428.38 --> 1432.52]  yeah can you really like how easy is it to to test that though to stress test that
+[1432.52 --> 1440.06]  uh leave your system in production for a day yeah it's uh yeah like my favorite thing about walmart to
+[1440.06 --> 1447.48]  say is that we're we're too big to stage um yeah and and the reality is that we could not really
+[1447.48 --> 1452.10]  reproduce it for months um and we still can't reproduce it with the actual system the only way
+[1452.10 --> 1457.70]  i was able to reproduce it was with with this little script i wrote that was uh creating a very
+[1457.70 --> 1465.64]  specific scenario of bursts of traffic um to actually stress node in just the right way to to make it
+[1465.64 --> 1472.30]  happen yeah well so long story short though the the whole thing was a big success big win for you big
+[1472.30 --> 1478.74]  win for node um let's talk a little bit about you know the actual i mean the implementation of of uh
+[1478.74 --> 1483.34]  you know what you guys did and then potentially you know get into happy a little bit so it's my
+[1483.34 --> 1488.02]  understanding that you guys started out um using express as that was really the only option at the
+[1488.02 --> 1493.72]  time is that right so i i started uh the origins of happy were really uh back at yahoo i was working
+[1493.72 --> 1499.54]  on a project called slid for about a year so i started when node was uh just 0.2 just came out
+[1499.54 --> 1508.72]  um so i guess it was november three years ago and and i was building a list making a collaborative
+[1508.72 --> 1516.50]  list making tool at yahoo and and i used express at the time um it was really the only option um it was
+[1516.50 --> 1521.06]  really just express and connect those were the only two things uh and express was built on top of it
+[1521.06 --> 1527.06]  and we used that for a while but what was going on you know in that one year is that i found myself
+[1527.06 --> 1532.52]  basically building a framework on top of express because express uh gave so little functionality
+[1532.52 --> 1538.34]  it basically was just a router with a little bit of uh of helpers but it it wasn't really a full
+[1538.34 --> 1545.62]  web framework that did all the things i want in terms of uh redirect the right way and uh and handle
+[1545.62 --> 1552.24]  um like rendering views without having to constantly set up the view uh context and um
+[1552.24 --> 1559.62]  and at the time also the the middleware ecosystem for express was very very uh very young um i mean
+[1559.62 --> 1564.74]  basically i was finding uh express bugs on a daily basis and just and just iming uh uh tj and saying
+[1564.74 --> 1573.12]  hey tj another one um and so that that has changed very dramatically but uh when i went to walmart
+[1573.12 --> 1579.44]  but i did this i basically i took the uh the express um layer that we've built um in in the in the
+[1579.44 --> 1585.26]  slide project which was open source by yahoo um so that was easy and then um we we kind of like said
+[1585.26 --> 1590.86]  okay we're going to call this happy and it's going to be basically an express layer that uh that will
+[1590.86 --> 1596.72]  add all of everything we needed and if you look at what paypal just did uh with their uh um um kraken
+[1596.72 --> 1601.00]  framework they kind of did the same thing they took express and then they realized express by itself is
+[1601.00 --> 1607.44]  not really a very useful framework um for a large team so they ended it went and added a bunch of uh
+[1607.44 --> 1612.44]  of abstraction and layers on top of that right so we did that for a while and it was working well
+[1612.44 --> 1619.60]  but then we uh we started hitting uh the the limits of of what express can do and the biggest one is
+[1619.60 --> 1625.66]  the the way the the router is designed in express it's basically just a gigantic array of regular
+[1625.66 --> 1630.94]  expressions and all it's doing is that whenever a request comes in it's just it just go through the
+[1630.94 --> 1636.42]  array in the order that you added your routes into the array and it's doing a regex match against each
+[1636.42 --> 1642.12]  one of them and when it finds a match it calls the function uh that will match it and when you uh and
+[1642.12 --> 1647.14]  all the middleware stuff is basically just adding a wildcard match into the array there's nothing
+[1647.14 --> 1653.62]  there's no magic there it's a very very um it's kind of beautiful in how simple the the entire
+[1653.62 --> 1658.78]  architecture of expresses but when you're working in a in an enterprise environment when you have
+[1658.78 --> 1663.98]  multiple team working on the same server you're going to uh want the server to take care of for
+[1663.98 --> 1669.14]  example collisions in your routes you don't want to have to end up with you know two routes with the
+[1669.14 --> 1675.42]  same path uh two middlewares conflicting on what they're changing um and very fast we got us into
+[1675.42 --> 1683.64]  um middleware hell which uh i i'm very proud to say that that was a term that i i started um
+[1683.64 --> 1688.84]  probably being like one of the first people to actually use express in in such a large scale that
+[1688.84 --> 1696.84]  we experienced it and and it was it was really painful we we wanted the framework to to protect
+[1696.84 --> 1702.82]  us from from doing stupid things and it wasn't so we switched to uh director from the nojitsu guys
+[1702.82 --> 1708.08]  and we used no director for a little bit um because director just gives you a router and you can use it
+[1708.08 --> 1713.38]  as any way you want uh but then we hit limitation there as well because of the way they store the
+[1713.38 --> 1720.04]  route tree and at that point we felt pretty good about just doing our our own internals um we're
+[1720.04 --> 1727.34]  talking about you know a year and a half into working on this this environment and um and the other thing
+[1727.34 --> 1735.74]  is that that when you start to build a real production dependency on on on these things you you kind of
+[1735.74 --> 1740.56]  require a different level of maturity from the from the modules you're using from the open source stuff
+[1740.56 --> 1749.20]  you're using and we found ourselves um uh trying our best to use like public open source modules but
+[1749.20 --> 1756.16]  very slowly but surely moving towards more and more code base that we were we were managing it just
+[1756.16 --> 1763.72]  because uh the quality was was uh more uh within our our uh criteria and uh if there was a problem we
+[1763.72 --> 1769.44]  can fix it right away we didn't have to fork um or start playing all those games or trying to find
+[1769.44 --> 1776.72]  someone on you know twitter to help us uh accept a pull request we've made and so we're still using
+[1776.72 --> 1783.12]  a significant amount of open source stuff but uh whenever we we hit a wall with a with a module um
+[1783.12 --> 1788.66]  uh we we are much more trigger happy now to fork it and create our own than than we were a year ago
+[1788.66 --> 1793.72]  right you guys are much more familiar with the whole environment now as a team and and your your needs in
+[1793.72 --> 1800.50]  that environment so there's a lot more confidence in that area i would imagine yeah and and we we're
+[1800.50 --> 1805.88]  also uh uh we we feel like we're you know we're we're giving uh we're giving enough back that uh
+[1806.70 --> 1812.84]  um like we if you talk to most of the uh the the leader in the node community they're all about you
+[1812.84 --> 1819.52]  know small tiny modules you know they all hate frameworks um you know and and it's kind of funny
+[1819.52 --> 1823.82]  whenever they they talk about framework that like you always hear one of them will say yeah there's
+[1823.82 --> 1827.70]  also you know happy from the from the mall mart guys um which if you're doing large scale stuff
+[1827.70 --> 1832.16]  that's actually a good solution but you know really you don't need it um it's always this you know
+[1832.16 --> 1838.94]  qualified love yeah uh coming from from from uh a lot of the the core node people which i respect
+[1838.94 --> 1844.12]  but at the same time if you work in a large large team um you have a lot of people building stuff you
+[1844.12 --> 1849.22]  really want to have a a plug-in architecture that people can build their own stuff and then
+[1849.22 --> 1853.22]  just deploy it together without having to coordinate every change without having that
+[1853.22 --> 1860.12]  one gigantic scary routing table file everybody has to constantly change uh to get their stuff into
+[1860.12 --> 1866.72]  the server um so it's those were the the the things we focused on the last year in terms of
+[1866.72 --> 1871.46]  of the framework so it's interesting then because you guys started so you did your own thing and
+[1871.46 --> 1876.08]  and with happy you talked about you know how how node the node community loves a bunch of little
+[1876.08 --> 1880.80]  tiny modules but uh you you briefly mentioned it but you went through a pretty modular approach to
+[1880.80 --> 1887.28]  how you deal with happy right so um first of all you your uh organization name on github is spumco
+[1887.28 --> 1892.90]  and uh why don't you real quick tell tell me the story you said about spumco and where that came from
+[1892.90 --> 1900.04]  so the the first module was called happy which was uh short for http api
+[1900.04 --> 1905.96]  uh so it was really an acronym but then as soon as uh i wrote it down i was like happy happy
+[1905.96 --> 1912.90]  joy joy um all my childhood that ran in stimpy days uh just you know came flooding flooding back
+[1912.90 --> 1919.50]  and so of course the second module we uh we created was called joy and we called it uh j-o-i just to
+[1919.50 --> 1926.10]  stick with the same spelling um style of happy uh and after that basically every new module we created
+[1926.10 --> 1934.62]  uh was uh based on some kind of random stimpy character or or episode uh and at some point
+[1934.62 --> 1943.56]  we were like over 30 um public uh github projects which made uh life on the official warm at labs github
+[1943.56 --> 1949.46]  account quite miserable because uh github doesn't give you like any way to organize your stuff other than
+[1949.46 --> 1955.44]  everything is flat right in your in your organization and when you have a couple hundred other people
+[1955.44 --> 1960.66]  all using the same github uh organization the dashboard becomes useless so we were like okay
+[1960.66 --> 1965.44]  we need to move our stuff to a new org and what are we going to call it and i was like i don't want
+[1965.44 --> 1969.92]  to call it another like you know walmart 2 or like let's find let's find something a little more
+[1969.92 --> 1977.52]  creative so we we chose spunko which is uh uh spunko with a k with a c is the name of the animation
+[1977.52 --> 1985.42]  studio that created ren and stimpy and so we call our our organization spunko with a k uh as a kind of a
+[1985.44 --> 1993.86]  homage to uh um to that yeah it's all your all your uh plugins here so uh you guys actually were
+[1993.86 --> 1999.88]  brave enough to name one poop and that is the plugin for uh or the module for uh kind of like
+[1999.88 --> 2005.98]  exception error handling is that right well the the proper tagline is uh it's a plugin for taking dumps
+[2005.98 --> 2012.56]  yeah processing a dump and cleaning up after an uncaught exception uh so that's a little that's funny
+[2012.56 --> 2017.32]  but that's hilarious yeah it's a very modular approach now this interesting design is that is
+[2017.32 --> 2021.90]  that kind of like to speak true you know to kind of capture the heart of the node community so that
+[2021.90 --> 2026.46]  people can pick the modules as they want and kind of mix and match what they want for their different
+[2026.46 --> 2033.10]  configuration so i i'm a big believer in uh expansion contraction pattern of development
+[2033.10 --> 2039.74]  where you add features to your main uh main framework to the core of the framework and then
+[2039.74 --> 2045.34]  as they mature as as you gain some experience of how they work you figure out if they should be
+[2045.34 --> 2051.00]  abstracted out into their own uh sub module or if they should stay part of the core system you're
+[2051.00 --> 2055.42]  still keeping the same integrated experience overall but uh in terms of code organization you're still
+[2055.42 --> 2062.60]  breaking it up so right um but uh i would argue that uh so so happy itself uh the the just a happy
+[2062.60 --> 2070.06]  module it's a pretty heavy framework so i won't try to portray it as a lightweight modular solution um
+[2070.06 --> 2078.56]  it's taking a very opinionated hands-on approach to to um writing an http uh web server or api server
+[2078.56 --> 2084.98]  and the reason for that is that we really want to integrate solution where when you define a route you
+[2084.98 --> 2089.52]  can define the caching policy all in one place you can define your authentication you can define your
+[2089.52 --> 2096.94]  your uh input validation and and everything just works out of the box you don't have to then start
+[2096.94 --> 2102.60]  basically finding the right plugin to do this and the plugin to do that everything we we deemed as
+[2102.60 --> 2110.34]  absolutely necessary for building any kind of modern uh web application is built in and and so so that's
+[2110.34 --> 2116.50]  that's a core uh uh principle there what we've done though is um whatever we we consider to be
+[2116.50 --> 2125.86]  uh more of a of an optional component for example um there's a very popular um um express uh middleware
+[2125.86 --> 2131.58]  called um passport that basically everybody's using for all their third-party authentication so we
+[2131.58 --> 2137.26]  created a wrapper for that uh and and that's called travel log and so that's not part of core it's part
+[2137.26 --> 2142.64]  of uh it's a heavy plugin you can add in the other thing is is that uh we designed a plugin system
+[2142.64 --> 2149.00]  to basically avoid all the middleware hell that that we've experienced before so you can actually
+[2149.00 --> 2154.06]  describe relationship between plugins one one plugin can actually say i require another one to work
+[2154.06 --> 2160.84]  uh a plugin can actually be very specific into the order of execution to say hey first go run this uh
+[2160.84 --> 2166.92]  um csrf plugin and then only then run the cookie one or the other way around depending on what you need
+[2166.92 --> 2172.06]  and so uh when you're loading them you don't have to worry about the order in which you're loading them
+[2172.06 --> 2177.48]  um as long as they describe the the relationship they will the happy loader will make sure that it's
+[2177.48 --> 2182.98]  uh done in the right order based on how it's been prescribed so so we've done a lot of that stuff um
+[2182.98 --> 2189.62]  we're we're trying to avoid as much as possible uh so we're discouraging people from building
+[2189.62 --> 2196.64]  new happy specific plugins as much as possible so like a lot of people are creating these plugins and
+[2196.64 --> 2200.30]  they're all very disappointed when they're like they're showing it to me and i was like why is it
+[2200.30 --> 2206.96]  the plugin like why is it not just a regular node module that you use um there is this excitement of
+[2206.96 --> 2212.02]  you know like getting a putting a stake in the ground and saying i created the you know the happy plugin
+[2212.02 --> 2220.10]  for this yeah um but in practice it's not necessary so uh we look at plugins as basically um something
+[2220.10 --> 2224.16]  that is directly interacting with the framework that's directly adding functionality to the framework
+[2224.16 --> 2230.48]  uh that is defining routes um if if you if all you want to do is uh you know parse a multi-form
+[2230.48 --> 2237.28]  uh you know response or request uh i would say don't build a plugin for that just just write a module
+[2237.28 --> 2244.22]  right yeah it's a different way of viewing it i guess people kind of it's a i don't know what the
+[2244.22 --> 2250.50]  what the mindset is right but uh let's say you know like go right it's a pretty early adoption stage
+[2250.50 --> 2257.54]  for for the program language of go and so people love to um write like the port of another solution
+[2257.54 --> 2263.90]  for that thing right so people say oh if they're using um you know let's say you didn't have your
+[2263.90 --> 2268.44]  your passport wrapper for for happy then they would say well people use passport for express i want to
+[2268.44 --> 2274.42]  write the passport for for happy and i think it causes some fragmentation in the community right
+[2274.42 --> 2279.38]  because it it i you know you can talk a long time about what the motivations behind that
+[2279.38 --> 2284.34]  kind of looking for like some sort of fame or or whatever but at the same time like they want to
+[2284.34 --> 2289.92]  help the community by providing a solution so i think node and npm specifically kind of kind of
+[2289.92 --> 2294.34]  makes it pretty simple right to just use npm modules in general and so perhaps you're right that it makes
+[2294.34 --> 2299.48]  more sense to to write a module that um you know is easier to manage in that way than than trying to do
+[2299.48 --> 2304.94]  a specific plugin for happy yeah and and the other thing is that uh really all you need in order to
+[2304.94 --> 2312.14]  create a happy plugin is to export export one function called register and so that's all that's
+[2312.14 --> 2317.84]  all we're looking for when we're loading a plugin so um but you know if if you're writing a module and
+[2317.84 --> 2324.58]  you really want it to be easily um absorbed into the happy ecosystem then you know write your plugin
+[2324.58 --> 2329.62]  write your module the way you would write it for anybody to use and then just add one more exported
+[2329.62 --> 2337.12]  function um so it so it can also work as a um as a plugin for happy and i would argue that you know
+[2337.12 --> 2341.82]  if you're doing that might as well you know export one more function and then it can also work as a
+[2341.82 --> 2346.88]  uh as a middleware for express uh if you know if you design it properly then then it should be pretty
+[2346.88 --> 2352.60]  easy to uh to bridge the two um for most of the the the basic stuff that people are looking for
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+[2439.82 --> 2444.68]  and how did you hear about a section when you sign up for a new account and just know that with
+[2444.68 --> 2452.88]  fresh books every day could be your birthday so go sign up at get fresh books.com so when was 1.0
+[2452.88 --> 2457.60]  of happy released or i guess a better question i'm not sure what your versioning structure looks like
+[2457.60 --> 2465.08]  when was happy production ready released uh well it was in production before 1.0 but um
+[2465.08 --> 2473.14]  we uh so we're using the numbers to basically it's just a regular stammer contract of uh of you know
+[2473.14 --> 2478.64]  a patch is just a bug fix that's backward and forward compatible and then uh minor is uh backward
+[2478.64 --> 2487.08]  compatible and major is not backward compatible uh and so 1.0 came out i think in april uh we um
+[2487.08 --> 2494.38]  we got it out right together with the node uh dot 10 release and that has been used in production for
+[2494.38 --> 2505.70]  uh um since then and uh we're working on um 2.0 um right now uh hoping to ship it out next week and
+[2505.70 --> 2513.92]  there are really no major uh changes in it it's just that um it's been long enough that we've uh
+[2513.92 --> 2520.44]  accumulated uh a little too much uh backup compatibility crap around it um we've you know
+[2520.44 --> 2525.08]  as as we've been using it as people have been using it we got a lot of feedback and a lot of
+[2525.08 --> 2530.18]  the decisions we made you know in april were no longer valid uh in in september all of a sudden
+[2530.18 --> 2535.02]  we're like oh we really don't want this configuration value to be in the same node as this configuration
+[2535.02 --> 2541.22]  value because it doesn't it doesn't work right when you're trying to use defaults and so we made
+[2541.22 --> 2546.72]  back compatible changes but it got to the point now where uh it's it's kind of time to clean it up
+[2546.72 --> 2554.02]  and and do a breaking release so it's a very non-dramatic 2.0 yeah it was interesting um i was
+[2554.02 --> 2559.34]  watching i don't know what video it was but uh like a tutorial happy video that you all put on and
+[2559.34 --> 2565.52]  and i just noticed somebody was you know adding uh adding routes adding handlers with the route method
+[2565.52 --> 2569.96]  on the server and then i saw in the documentation that there was the add route method and so i was like
+[2569.96 --> 2575.10]  i wonder where you know something's wrong or you know in my head i was like i bet there's a major
+[2575.10 --> 2579.42]  change coming out that that's like breaking you know that's either deprecating this or breaking it
+[2579.42 --> 2584.62]  or something and it was interesting to me that that you all have a issue open for 2.0 breaking
+[2584.62 --> 2589.90]  changes that's a neat way to do it and uh it was pretty um you know simple for me to figure out what
+[2589.90 --> 2595.94]  was going on and why i saw the kind of discrepancy between the two so um how how much you know i guess
+[2595.94 --> 2604.16]  my question is how how actively is your you know issues are your issues on the on the project watched
+[2604.16 --> 2608.76]  like what do most people know that these breaking changes are coming that are using happy or or you
+[2608.76 --> 2613.10]  know i guess that's the an awkward way to say basically but how much activity have you guys
+[2613.10 --> 2620.18]  had around like the open source issues kind of pull requests kind of a thing um so there's a couple
+[2620.18 --> 2626.28]  hundred people that are actually actively watching the the issues um at this point pretty much everybody
+[2626.28 --> 2631.08]  who's using it in any kind of serious capacity if you have a production dependency on it you're
+[2631.08 --> 2641.24]  watching what's going on and we we have uh we've basically um went all in on on github as our
+[2641.24 --> 2645.94]  everything you know it's our project management solution our team communication solution it's basically
+[2645.94 --> 2652.46]  we put everything there there there is no other like ticketing system for for happy like in privately
+[2652.46 --> 2658.16]  in walmart or anywhere else um we basically made a decision that it's an open source project and we're
+[2658.16 --> 2663.78]  going to run it completely as an open source project even though um you know we like i get bug reports
+[2663.78 --> 2668.14]  from you know internal teams and i always say like go open an issue and they're like really like this
+[2668.14 --> 2672.38]  issue you want me to like put it on the web i was like yeah go open an issue it's like i'm not
+[2672.38 --> 2676.50]  embarrassed by it it's like it's a bug and we'll fix it you'll go open an issue i mean people will see
+[2676.50 --> 2683.92]  the the the the commit so it's not like you know you can hide it sneak it by him yeah um but we've
+[2683.92 --> 2689.32]  also made extensive use of milestones even before uh github kind of cleaned their act with versions
+[2689.32 --> 2694.80]  um so we've been using milestone quite extensively so we don't do release notes because all we're doing
+[2694.80 --> 2701.94]  we're like we're very religiously tagging everything to uh to an issue and then the issues are all part of
+[2701.94 --> 2706.30]  of milestones so you can see exactly if you just look up you want to say okay what changed between
+[2706.30 --> 2711.16]  this and this you can just bring up the milestones and you can see exactly what issues were associated
+[2711.16 --> 2716.46]  and then once we did that we kind of added the uh the breaking change uh uh label and we said hey
+[2716.46 --> 2721.42]  you know what if we're gonna make a change that's gonna be breaking um and we and before we were 1.0
+[2721.42 --> 2726.68]  you know basically every minor release was a was a breaking change like every one of them was like
+[2726.68 --> 2733.60]  oh yeah you can't upgrade unless you like rewrote your entire app um and and after that it became
+[2733.60 --> 2739.70]  a lot more less sorry a lot less significant i think we made like two breaking changes throughout
+[2739.70 --> 2746.64]  1.0 and both were for security reasons so like we changed the default of uh like multi-part uh parser
+[2746.64 --> 2752.48]  not to create files by default um stuff like that that we felt like you know this is a a breaking change
+[2752.48 --> 2757.40]  worth making um yeah the note the whole node community had to kind of to do that pretty much
+[2757.40 --> 2766.20]  right if i remember correctly yeah so um we we we had a couple of breaking changes in 1.0 that were just
+[2766.20 --> 2773.24]  that important um but overall uh it hasn't been a big deal and now we're working on 2.0 and um
+[2773.24 --> 2780.54]  we're kind of like we have the one issue that we collect everything and it's more of like edited and
+[2780.54 --> 2786.02]  it's it's a lot more friendly for you to understand but then every individual issue that is actually the
+[2786.02 --> 2792.04]  one where the change is being made we also tag that so um because i'm not expecting everybody to be able
+[2792.04 --> 2798.02]  to sit there and go through my you know 300 breaking changes issues in 2.0 and like read every one of
+[2798.02 --> 2804.26]  those i mean that would be awful so instead like we're you know we're basically doing it that way and
+[2804.26 --> 2809.18]  it's also great because then once we're done writing a migration guide it's just kind of like doing
+[2809.18 --> 2814.04]  some editorial on that particular issue yeah uh and then and that and that's how we do it too like
+[2814.04 --> 2818.18]  we're going to go in and edit that and that will be the migration guide like we're not going to
+[2818.18 --> 2824.48]  actually like publish a like a wiki page of doing that so do you know anyone like that's using happy
+[2824.48 --> 2832.14]  in production besides you guys at a at a at a large scale i don't know about large scale um i know that
+[2832.14 --> 2839.86]  uh mozilla was using it for some of their identity stuff um for some of their the browser id uh they're
+[2839.86 --> 2844.50]  using happy i don't know what's the status right now but they they uh were using it as of a few
+[2844.50 --> 2853.02]  months ago um i know uh mastercard um is using it for some of their new project uh con and asked the the
+[2853.02 --> 2860.16]  publisher uh they're using it as a as a building block for their new uh um uh cross-platform environment
+[2860.16 --> 2867.04]  uh so and of course walmart is using it uh um uh quite heavily right now for mobile and we're
+[2867.04 --> 2872.88]  looking this year to expand beyond mobile to a lot of other uh areas of the of the e-commerce business
+[2872.88 --> 2882.30]  so yeah so it has some uh significant adoption um but then others you know um have have made a decision
+[2882.30 --> 2889.98]  to uh uh either build their own or use express so uh i i think i the the default behavior
+[2889.98 --> 2894.46]  for other people right now is um is to pick express because everybody else is using express
+[2894.46 --> 2902.72]  and then um they they tend to once they got into express they they feel like it's too much right now
+[2902.72 --> 2907.22]  to make changes so they just keep building more and more layers on top yeah to make it more manageable
+[2907.22 --> 2914.60]  for them um so i'm hoping that you know as this time passes and more people are seeing what we're
+[2914.60 --> 2921.98]  doing with it um you know they can uh they can make a a different decision and for example like if
+[2921.98 --> 2926.56]  you you know if you if you have an existing api and you want to take the uh the proxy strategy
+[2926.56 --> 2932.18]  to migrate to a new stack which is a it's a really great uh um approach in terms of you know sticking
+[2932.18 --> 2937.48]  your your layer in between and slowly making changes you don't have to go in yeah otherwise you
+[2937.48 --> 2942.10]  have to sit you know sit in in in dark room for a year and you know and rebuild everything and of
+[2942.10 --> 2945.98]  course we know how well that works in production like when you ship the new version and nothing
+[2945.98 --> 2950.58]  works right and then you know it's a year behind and probably get canceled and everybody quits right
+[2950.58 --> 2958.46]  so yeah and and and basically you can you can uh deploy happy with probably about 30 lines of your
+[2958.46 --> 2964.46]  own code and get all the proxy functionality immediately at walmart you know walmart scale
+[2964.46 --> 2969.16]  yeah so that that's kind of neat yeah i was gonna ask i mean that that's kind of my next
+[2969.16 --> 2973.78]  question was what you know what's the future of walmart look like for this kind of stuff so how
+[2973.78 --> 2979.84]  much kind of so you're on the mobile team how much um you know i don't know what the best way to ask is
+[2979.84 --> 2985.70]  but how much impact have you had on the other teams in walmart so it was kind of interesting because uh
+[2985.70 --> 2992.34]  there was about a year ago there was some effort within the uh the people in the company who like to set
+[2992.34 --> 2997.08]  standards and they came to me and they said we you know more people are asking us about notes so
+[2997.08 --> 3001.80]  can we make it the formal that like happy is the official framework at walmart and i said no
+[3001.80 --> 3006.28]  like i don't want that to be the case i don't want anybody to use happy because some policy is
+[3006.28 --> 3011.46]  dictating it um because i wouldn't use it because you're telling me what to use so so i don't want
+[3011.46 --> 3017.60]  to do it to other people um so we never like actually like promoted within the company and people
+[3017.60 --> 3021.74]  just picked it up all on their own it's kind of neat all of a sudden like we're getting uh issues open
+[3021.74 --> 3026.02]  and then like after like a few back and forth they're like oh wait a minute are you from the
+[3026.02 --> 3032.04]  santa clara office um so it's kind of like this this funny where like we were meeting other people
+[3032.04 --> 3038.30]  on like the irc channel like you know co-workers that we have never met before um so some of the other
+[3038.30 --> 3044.42]  um other teams were building like smaller uh like like panels for the main website like
+[3044.42 --> 3050.08]  recommendations and like the social stuff uh they're using happy to build their own stuff um and
+[3050.08 --> 3054.54]  they have like their own deployment their own servers um and they're like they you know every
+[3054.54 --> 3060.68]  month they'll come back um but the the real goal um for for my team this year is going to be to kind
+[3060.68 --> 3067.78]  of like look and see where we can add value um beyond mobile um as we're uh as walmart you know
+[3067.78 --> 3074.32]  uh walmart uh e-commerce uh as a whole is is moving to uh new apis and new technologies on the back end
+[3074.32 --> 3082.94]  um we're all going to have to move to that stack uh and then also we're expanding our our mandate um
+[3082.94 --> 3089.12]  to other countries so right now the mobile team is uh focused primarily on the u.s uh where we have
+[3089.12 --> 3097.76]  walmart and sam's club and we also are um uh working on the mobile apps for asda which is the walmart brand
+[3097.76 --> 3103.90]  in the uk um and walmart is active in a lot more other countries including you know mexico and canada
+[3103.90 --> 3111.64]  and china and brazil and it's a very long list uh so we are um at some point going to expand um
+[3111.64 --> 3117.70]  to those so it's really seeing how how much we can scale the node um uh engineering process
+[3117.70 --> 3124.54]  uh beyond just you know scaling the the software but also scaling the the the engineering itself
+[3124.54 --> 3130.76]  like the the writing of the software itself we're gonna pause the show for just a minute and give a
+[3130.76 --> 3135.10]  shout out to our awesome sponsor top towel they've been sponsoring the show for a little bit and we've
+[3135.10 --> 3138.34]  had a chance to tell you about some really awesome stuff they're doing i've been working with
+[3138.34 --> 3143.70]  brendan their co-founder and cto and i mentioned that you know i wasn't quite sure what to expect
+[3143.70 --> 3147.90]  from them and i was but i was excited about what they're doing they're helping developers
+[3147.90 --> 3151.96]  who want to freelance with some really awesome companies find ways to do that
+[3151.96 --> 3156.34]  and it's their mission these guys are the real deal they're engineers themselves from top to bottom
+[3156.34 --> 3160.92]  they're not technical recruiters trying to pimp developers so if that's what you think then you've
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+[3175.18 --> 3181.32]  like airbnb artsy audio and many others you can work remotely you can go to andrew's favorite place
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+[3202.42 --> 3206.80]  who they are and what their mission is and see if you're a fit and from end to end the screening
+[3206.80 --> 3212.34]  process includes an english speaking test a timed algorithm test technical interviews with core
+[3212.34 --> 3217.62]  top top top engineers as well as a test project and once you've made it past the screening process
+[3217.62 --> 3222.26]  the sky is the limit and if you think you have what it takes head to top.com slash developer right
+[3222.26 --> 3228.78]  now to get started tell them the changelog sent you and enjoy now back to the show one of the things i
+[3228.78 --> 3233.54]  wanted to kind of implore uh i don't know if that's even the right word at this point but to kind of
+[3233.54 --> 3238.50]  congratulate or maybe thank you guys about was you know we've had a on the show a few times in the
+[3238.50 --> 3243.86]  last couple weeks we've had discussions around you know how one deployment tool will come out and
+[3243.86 --> 3249.44]  another deployment tool will come out and say you know we we are better than x or we don't suck as
+[3249.44 --> 3254.14]  much as x and they'll kind of take a shot at the person that they're they're building on top of and uh
+[3254.14 --> 3257.24]  you know i was looking through happy and you guys obviously are i wouldn't say you're a competitor
+[3257.24 --> 3262.38]  with express but you've definitely kind of entered the same space as express and i don't see anything on
+[3262.38 --> 3266.06]  you know your website saying like we're better than express or the reason we're doing this because
+[3266.06 --> 3270.20]  express stinks and and i personally just wanted to like thank you guys for that because that's a i
+[3270.20 --> 3275.52]  think that's a good a good thing to get away from in the open source community well i mean there's a
+[3275.52 --> 3279.54]  couple reasons for that i think i had like in the last year i had one tweet where i said basically
+[3279.54 --> 3285.20]  something like you know it's it's time if you're doing something serious with node it's time to start
+[3285.20 --> 3292.36]  looking beyond express uh i think i was a little more snarky about it but um but really like there's
+[3292.36 --> 3297.90]  there's there's two ways of looking at it one is um we're we are clearly the underdog in this space
+[3297.90 --> 3306.68]  um uh both express and and restify uh which is the the joint um um api framework i have a lot more
+[3306.68 --> 3313.12]  um deployed uh use cases than happy has right now um we have more revenues going through it so you know
+[3313.12 --> 3321.04]  combine there's definitely more money being bet on on happy than everybody else combined um but that's
+[3321.04 --> 3326.52]  not a very meaningful statistic yeah you're saying it um basically you're saying walmart's using it at
+[3326.52 --> 3332.96]  that point yes so well i know if mastercard put some some real revenue on it too i mean i think
+[3332.96 --> 3340.94]  between those two it's going to be like pretty significant um but if you're the underdog um and
+[3340.94 --> 3348.92]  you're starting to basically uh um say nasty things about the the injury leader like you're really
+[3348.92 --> 3353.30]  coming off as a dick yeah i mean you're not really coming off as like you know somebody who's like
+[3353.30 --> 3361.26]  and the thing is the people who have uh uh create express um you know particularly the uh the formal the
+[3361.26 --> 3369.56]  formal um uh learn boost uh guys they're now with uh um wordpress spot they're they're um cloud up
+[3369.56 --> 3378.28]  startup but uh or spinoff but um those are all fantastic guys i mean they are uh just awesome
+[3378.28 --> 3383.90]  people and brilliant engineers so for me to go out and like say anything better about their work i
+[3383.90 --> 3389.56]  disagree with the choices they've made um and i think that architecturally what they've produced is
+[3389.56 --> 3395.78]  not compatible with with the parts i want to have right but like to say that it's bad or it's it's just
+[3395.78 --> 3401.98]  going to be stupid um and the thing is those are very two different philosophies express is very
+[3401.98 --> 3409.30]  lightweight it's basically just giving you very very a little bit of sugar um on top of note and
+[3409.30 --> 3415.74]  that that's what most people want so i don't think i need to be a yeah we don't need to actively go
+[3415.74 --> 3419.86]  against it now like but at the same time like we're definitely trying to get more people to adopt happy
+[3419.86 --> 3425.72]  um we're definitely trying to to highlight you know where we think we're better than than uh other
+[3425.72 --> 3430.72]  frameworks in terms of the functionality we provide but i think you can do it without you know without
+[3430.72 --> 3436.00]  being a dick yeah absolutely and i think that's that's what you all are doing so i uh i congratulate
+[3436.00 --> 3443.10]  and thank you for that so for the listeners of the uh new listeners of the show um we do at the end of
+[3443.10 --> 3448.96]  every episode we ask the same questions to our guests so aaron i'll go ahead and ask them to you now um
+[3448.96 --> 3454.28]  it's the first one is for a call to arm so something around happy or any one of its modules
+[3454.28 --> 3458.42]  or in node in general that you'd like to see the open source community kind of pitch in and contribute
+[3458.42 --> 3466.28]  to uh mostly just use it um we really are looking for more people to give it a try um and the thing
+[3466.28 --> 3471.14]  is if you try it and you don't like it please tell us why like go open an issue and say i tried it
+[3471.14 --> 3476.12]  didn't like it here's why i didn't like it good luck with it um like we love issues we actually don't
+[3476.12 --> 3481.60]  have a google group um like most other projects because we we just want everybody to open issues
+[3481.60 --> 3486.78]  like and we have a label called discussion so we're basically using github issues just like a
+[3486.78 --> 3496.84]  mailing list um and we found it it's basically it's creating a a psychological um barrier that people
+[3496.84 --> 3503.50]  are less likely to be spammy and and um uh and troll uh where the mailing list is kind of like expected
+[3503.50 --> 3508.98]  right so it's working really well but like really like like my request is for people to just go and
+[3508.98 --> 3517.98]  give it a try and play with it um find bugs um ask for more stuff and uh and we're happy to uh to to
+[3517.98 --> 3523.34]  engage awesome if you weren't working at walmart or working unhappy what would you be doing
+[3523.34 --> 3532.12]  um i would be a full-time farmer that's awesome much right now i'm only a part-time farmer i would
+[3532.12 --> 3537.94]  i would uh if i if i could afford to uh to do that full-time that that's definitely what i would be
+[3537.94 --> 3543.04]  doing there's a there's a famous farming joke of a farmer goes to vegas and and win the jackpot so
+[3543.04 --> 3547.14]  everybody's saying like what are you gonna do now and he kind of looks up and he thinks about it and
+[3547.14 --> 3553.82]  says um i think i can continue being a farmer for another five years that's awesome what do you what
+[3553.82 --> 3557.54]  would you farm what do you you live out in california so are you uh you into like avocado
+[3557.54 --> 3564.44]  uh i actually like i'm not a big fan of the the orchard stuff so i have a small apple orchard but
+[3564.44 --> 3572.58]  mostly uh a lot of vegetables um and i have uh quite a lot of uh um animals between uh uh chicken
+[3572.58 --> 3582.10]  and ducks geese emus um alpacas pigs um a bunch of beehives so that's cool uh yeah beehives you're
+[3582.10 --> 3586.84]  definitely the first guest that we've had that has said that but it's still it kind of is a recurring
+[3586.84 --> 3592.38]  theme it's very rare for us to get you know a um somebody that we would say what would you rather
+[3592.38 --> 3596.44]  be doing and they would say oh i'd go into another you know technology industry or something
+[3596.44 --> 3601.48]  like that typically developers and people that that's in my experience that sit behind a computer
+[3601.48 --> 3606.90]  all day tend to want to do something with their hands if they had more time you know so for you
+[3606.90 --> 3611.34]  it'd be farming for me it'd be woodworking and and some people it's surfing and all that so yes
+[3611.34 --> 3616.30]  it's a common theme among developers that i found to i agree with you kind of dream about doing things
+[3616.30 --> 3623.78]  with your hands woodworking and bees yeah cool so i uh i actually uh um i gave a talk at uh real time
+[3623.78 --> 3632.96]  um in october uh basically all i did was talk about food for an hour uh to engineers and uh
+[3632.96 --> 3639.12]  it was like by far the the most insane talk production i've ever uh put together it was four
+[3639.12 --> 3644.66]  months of uh of preparation i had to actually uh rent a u-haul and drive it all the way to portland
+[3644.66 --> 3651.92]  from california because i had too much stuff i couldn't ship it that's crazy yeah you did it yeah so
+[3651.92 --> 3657.88]  so developers i'm sure we're very uh glad to hear you talk about food it was fun it was uh it was it
+[3657.88 --> 3662.24]  was like a psychotic you know like i think like the budget was like over five grand for the talk it
+[3662.24 --> 3667.38]  was crazy wow but uh yeah and the video is online so uh you should check it out yeah we'll have to
+[3667.38 --> 3672.38]  link to that uh our last question is for a programmer hero somebody in your in your life that has been
+[3672.38 --> 3681.16]  influential um i don't think anybody has been influential but uh i would say uh roberta williams
+[3681.16 --> 3687.98]  would be my my childhood engineering hero uh of course if you don't if you're if you're not as
+[3687.98 --> 3695.96]  old as me um she created all the king quest games um so uh she she she together with her husband
+[3695.96 --> 3703.90]  ken they created a sierra online yeah um and so yeah so i grew up on on those games and uh and you
+[3703.90 --> 3707.20]  know all i want to do is kind of like reverse engineer them and figure out how they're done
+[3707.20 --> 3714.44]  um played my first king quest you know when i was uh probably 10 or 11 year old so
+[3714.44 --> 3721.64]  that's cool yeah i uh i have fond memories of games that i played when i was a kid the the one thing
+[3721.64 --> 3728.80]  about this industry that has uh has kind of amused me or shocked me at kind of both levels is uh
+[3728.80 --> 3733.62]  you know you expect a lot of your co-workers to have spent a lot of their childhood playing video
+[3733.62 --> 3738.92]  games on the computer and you know for whatever reason a lot of developers just didn't didn't come
+[3738.92 --> 3743.54]  that route so it's kind of interesting to me to bump into someone else that that you know enjoyed a
+[3743.54 --> 3748.08]  lot of the the old school games that uh that perhaps a lot of the newer developers kind of never even
+[3748.08 --> 3754.12]  heard of yeah my kids are playing king quest now so it's fun i they're playing right next to me and
+[3754.12 --> 3759.50]  they keep asking me like how do you spell this how do you spell that that's awesome yeah well cool well
+[3759.50 --> 3765.00]  hey i wanted to say thanks again for joining us on today's show we're here with aaron hammer from
+[3765.00 --> 3770.70]  walmart labs and spumco as they're so noted on github uh talking about happy and black friday and
+[3770.70 --> 3775.38]  and success it was and that you guys are definitely doing a uh a pretty awesome thing for the node
+[3775.38 --> 3780.42]  community and and i mean shoot node should write white papers about walmart because i think it will
+[3780.42 --> 3787.82]  help to pre preemptively squash any node can't scale arguments after hearing the uh the success of
+[3787.82 --> 3793.32]  black friday but um i also wanted to give a shout out to our sponsors digital ocean and top towel for
+[3793.32 --> 3798.42]  supporting the show you can go to digitalocean.com to set up your cloud server today and make sure you
+[3798.42 --> 3804.08]  use our promo code changelog sent me that's changelog sent me in all caps to get a ten dollar hosting
+[3804.08 --> 3810.24]  credit and if you want to freelance with companies like airbnb artsy or ideo you can head to toptow.com
+[3810.24 --> 3815.28]  slash developer and click join the best to see if you have what it takes to join toptow's network of
+[3815.28 --> 3821.20]  elite engineers again the url is toptow.com slash developer and that's it for this week thanks again
+[3821.20 --> 3825.32]  to erin hammer for joining to erin i said that funny thanks again to erin hammer for joining us
+[3825.32 --> 3829.44]  and also thanks to the listeners for tuning in and for your support if you haven't yet you can
+[3829.44 --> 3834.44]  subscribe to the changelog weekly it's our weekly weekly email where we share everything that hits
+[3834.44 --> 3840.50]  our open source radar you can subscribe at the changelog.com slash weekly uh i think we're off next
+[3840.50 --> 3846.26]  week right we're gonna gonna encourage all of our developer friends and listeners to enjoy the
+[3846.26 --> 3852.42]  holidays with your family and loved ones and we will be back uh sometime in the new year in the new
+[3852.42 --> 3856.66]  year so until then guys let's say goodbye bye
+[3856.66 --> 3872.52]  you
+[3872.52 --> 3876.16]  yeah
+[3876.52 --> 3876.70]  you
+[3876.70 --> 3880.60]  yeah
+[3880.60 --> 3880.72]  you
+[3880.72 --> 3910.70]  Thank you.

Open Sourcing .NET Core_transcript.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,605 @@
+[0.00 --> 15.32]  welcome back everyone this is the change log and i'm your host adam stekowiak this is episode 134
+[15.32 --> 22.28]  jared and i talked to the core team behind dot net core that's microsoft dot net core effects
+[22.28 --> 28.32]  can't believe it we have microsoft on here talking about open source of all things we were surprised
+[28.32 --> 34.28]  to definitely a great show we have rich lander emma landworth and varun gupta on the show great
+[34.28 --> 39.06]  great conversation about microsoft and open source and lots and lots of fun we had some
+[39.06 --> 45.76]  awesome sponsors for this show code ship top towel and rack space helping us make this show possible
+[45.76 --> 50.84]  we'll talk about top towel and rack space a bit later on the show but our friends at code ship
+[50.84 --> 57.74]  always amaze us continuous integration and delivery as a service you can release more frequently get
+[57.74 --> 63.00]  faster feedback and build the product your users actually need a simple push to a repo runs your
+[63.00 --> 68.40]  automated test suite and configure deployments from a simple deployment to heroku to a complex
+[68.40 --> 74.38]  deployment pipeline set up for large infrastructures all that can be set up with ease using code ship
+[74.38 --> 78.92]  it integrates easily with github or bitbucket you can get started today with their free plan
+[78.92 --> 85.06]  setup takes just three minutes make sure you use the code the changelog podcast again the changelog
+[85.06 --> 92.40]  and with that code you'll get a 20 discount for three months on any plane you choose head to
+[92.40 --> 98.08]  codeship.io slash the changelog and tell them we sent you and now on to the show
+[98.08 --> 111.60]  all right everybody we're joined back today we got a fun show lined up today we got myself here got
+[111.60 --> 117.62]  jared here we got rich lander we got emo landworth we've got varoon gupta uh those guys are from the
+[117.62 --> 124.40]  dot net core team over there at microsoft and i tell you this is this is maybe an unprecedented day
+[124.40 --> 129.36]  for us because in the history of this show we've only had one show on dot net and that was on nougat
+[129.36 --> 134.68]  um we didn't expect to ever have anyone from microsoft on the show talking about dot net being
+[134.68 --> 139.50]  open source so i guess that's uh hands in the air on that one but um let's let's go around the table
+[139.50 --> 144.16]  here real quick and give some intros so rich let's start with you emo and then varoon uh after that in
+[144.16 --> 154.94]  no particular order sure um i'm rich lander as uh jared said and or sorry adam um and uh i've been at
+[154.94 --> 164.12]  microsoft since 2000 i've been on the dot net team since uh 2003 and i've shipped each version of dot net
+[164.12 --> 170.22]  since 2-0 it's uh been really interesting being on the team and building all the technology that we've
+[170.22 --> 176.16]  been shipping to customers that whole time but uh this last little bit where we've been uh getting
+[176.16 --> 181.88]  our open source project ready has been definitely the most exciting time in that that whole period
+[181.88 --> 194.50]  all right and we got uh emo yeah so i joined microsoft in 2010 and uh i was a customer for a
+[194.50 --> 202.78]  very long time i was basically on the first on the first beta is basically since 2002 i believe
+[202.78 --> 208.32]  and uh so when i joined the uh the team i had a very much uh you know focus on dot net from a customer
+[208.32 --> 212.42]  perspective and i'm super excited to see some of the things happening that we did over the last
+[212.42 --> 216.92]  two years in particular releasing more stuff on new bit as well as open source that we're doing now
+[216.92 --> 224.38]  so it's really great times for me as well gotcha all right varoon how about you uh hey guys i've been
+[224.38 --> 232.10]  in microsoft for the last 10 years mostly around dot net um i'm part of the dot net team which is doing
+[232.10 --> 238.30]  the open source work around dot net core interestingly i'm also part of the team that's helping set up
+[238.30 --> 245.40]  dot net foundation so it's very exciting for me from both fronts uh you know seeing back last 10
+[245.40 --> 251.18]  years definitely very exciting and a new path um but it's you know something we're all very excited
+[251.18 --> 258.26]  about so jared i guess i'll open this uh this show up with probably the most important question we have
+[258.26 --> 264.50]  here and to you guys too i mean congrats on taking this shift towards open source i think you'll probably
+[264.50 --> 270.34]  see and you probably have seen already the the benefits of of just the open source community
+[270.34 --> 275.40]  interacting with you know a wider developer base maybe than you're typically used to with feedback
+[275.40 --> 280.72]  and issues and github and pull requests and all this you know collaboration that goes into building
+[280.72 --> 286.26]  open source software these days so let's let's maybe ask the the biggest question here which is why
+[286.26 --> 292.78]  open source and maybe even a tail-off question which is why now uh how about i'll answer the first
+[292.78 --> 300.38]  question i think this is rich right yeah sorry this is rich uh i think the big um key motivation behind
+[300.38 --> 309.66]  um why open source is that um we want to just reach developers who um we we can't typically reach
+[309.66 --> 317.18]  with a pure kind of closed source uh offering and um there are plenty of folks out there that uh open
+[317.18 --> 324.30]  source is a key requirement and uh we want to make them uh our customers as well um so that that's
+[324.30 --> 331.24]  really that's really the big piece do you want to tackle the second one email why now yeah so the so
+[331.24 --> 336.54]  why now question is interesting so like in the blog post that we published uh two weeks ago we basically
+[336.54 --> 344.76]  uh sketched open source as effectively two pieces the first piece is uh cross-plaid which is uh if you think
+[344.76 --> 349.02]  of any sort of serious cross-plaid projects and they all have one thing in common in their open
+[349.02 --> 354.56]  source and it's not that open source is the only way to do cross-plaid work but it's uh probably the
+[354.56 --> 360.52]  most um sustainable way of doing it because you can very easily incorporate other people that care
+[360.52 --> 364.82]  about certain things that you either can't repo yet or you just don't care about this yet so a good
+[364.82 --> 369.00]  example is if you look at linux for example when linus tol was started this whole project he
+[369.00 --> 374.00]  still didn't care about 160 architectures uh for him to target right but over the years
+[374.00 --> 378.44]  certain people jumped in that cared about certain architectures and then you know the breadth of the
+[378.44 --> 383.20]  project significantly increased over time right and that's that's why it cross-plaid i think of uh
+[383.20 --> 389.22]  if you look at dotnet the mono community is a very strong um force there so it would be very very
+[389.22 --> 394.86]  you know idiotic from our side if you wouldn't um uh you know incorporate those communities and make
+[394.86 --> 399.54]  it easier for them to work with us the second part of it is uh if you look back there for the last two
+[399.54 --> 403.44]  years we're basically doing more and more agile delivery and uh from from our point of view
+[403.44 --> 408.00]  agile delivery is really the key of uh you know making sure that the right things happening
+[408.00 --> 412.96]  uh in a reasonable amount of time because the more complicated the project is and the more
+[412.96 --> 417.66]  design up front you perform the higher the chances are you get something wrong at some point right and
+[417.66 --> 422.64]  our project is now you know almost 15 years old if you consider the initial work time before it
+[422.64 --> 428.06]  went published uh public so there's a lot of complexity in the product itself so by us being able to
+[428.06 --> 433.06]  deliver things in an agile fashion that also means we get customer feedback way quicker uh we also
+[433.06 --> 437.66]  have happier customers because when you file a bug you live long enough to actually see the bug being
+[437.66 --> 442.14]  fixed as well so if you consider this you know in the previous time having like three years release
+[442.14 --> 447.10]  cycles uh it was often very frustrating for customers and as i said i was a customer for a very
+[447.10 --> 454.94]  long time so i filed a bug in 2004 that got uh closed as uh loan fixed in like 2009 or something so
+[454.94 --> 459.68]  i can totally relate to this uh uh problem that you just you know don't get feedback from microsoft
+[459.68 --> 464.30]  so agile really gives us this way of doing it and we ship uh packages on you get for over two years
+[464.30 --> 469.30]  now on our team and and from from our point of view open source is really just the ultimate version
+[469.30 --> 474.02]  of being agile right because you're essentially every time you commit something it's immediately live
+[474.02 --> 479.78]  and in theory it's consumable uh modular any bugs so we get feedback pretty much in real time so
+[479.78 --> 484.54]  instead of having a customer discussion every two years and we ship a beta we can actually have a
+[484.54 --> 488.48]  discussion with the customer in real time and that's why open source now makes a lot more sense
+[488.48 --> 494.56]  than it did you know maybe 10 years ago seems like quite a sea change from you know microsoft's
+[494.56 --> 501.04]  previous stance um as you guys said in your blog post it was you know kind of you you open source to
+[501.04 --> 507.92]  universal acclaim trending on github anything microsoft does makes a big splash but i'm interested in
+[507.92 --> 515.84]  how this change came about inside of the company because uh it seems like such a change in strategy
+[515.84 --> 521.88]  that usually those things have to be sold up a chain um whose idea was it and how long has it been
+[521.88 --> 528.02]  like you guys trying to convince people or are you the ultimate decision makers it's clearly all emo's idea
+[528.02 --> 529.16]  definitely
+[529.16 --> 536.80]  good one yeah so i think on our side we're all very interested right now that basically say open source
+[536.80 --> 542.52]  was my idea yeah but i think that you said like it's a strategy change i would agree that the strategy
+[542.52 --> 546.90]  changed but i don't think it should be you know a massive surprise i mean if you if you look over
+[546.90 --> 552.42]  the over the last i don't know probably longer years i mean dot net open source is not this you know
+[552.42 --> 556.20]  the first open source project that microsoft did right the very first open source project was
+[556.20 --> 561.26]  the windows installed the xml and that's not you know fairly long time ago uh asp.net is open
+[561.26 --> 566.50]  source for quite a long time now and uh they've managed c sharp and bb compilers was in open source
+[566.50 --> 571.82]  six months ago so there's there's clearly a progression where microsoft became um i think
+[571.82 --> 576.08]  better at realizing what open source actually means right i mean there's like you know these bad quotes
+[576.08 --> 580.76]  from balma like 10 years ago or something about gpl but if you if you realize like how we run with
+[580.76 --> 585.66]  open source now i think uh it's clear that it's not a shift that happened overnight um and there's
+[585.66 --> 591.76]  for example the shift designer of c sharp he had a lot of experience with open sourcing uh as part
+[591.76 --> 597.02]  of the typescript initiative that was open source from the first day and he really absolutely liked
+[597.02 --> 601.40]  the experience that that open source designing the open interacting with people in real time
+[601.40 --> 605.74]  was ringing because you could reach developers that we just could never reach before right it's really
+[605.74 --> 611.28]  about the conversation and and the you know you know the sheer innovation speed of which you can
+[611.28 --> 615.38]  take the feedback and make something out of it um and i think in general like if you look at
+[615.38 --> 620.24]  microsoft around i mean uh you know balma had this uh vision statement of devices and services for
+[620.24 --> 625.26]  example and especially when you look at services and we are in the same work that delivers uh azure as
+[625.26 --> 630.06]  well so there's this uh ntfs and both are services now and so they're both in a very aggressive
+[630.06 --> 636.54]  uh timeline as far as you know releasing uh you know small increments of uh functionality and then
+[636.54 --> 641.50]  getting customer feedback on it and and from our point of view the developer stack is uh something
+[641.50 --> 645.18]  that you really have to give people's hand very early on in order to get meaningful feedback but
+[645.18 --> 650.00]  we can't just ship faster you know the framework itself on windows because that just doesn't scale
+[650.00 --> 654.58]  to 1.8 building machines you really have to have a way where we can give it to developers faster and
+[654.58 --> 658.76]  so on that point of view i think that that open source is also just the continuation of you know
+[658.76 --> 663.04]  dev ops or some of the other you know keywords that you have probably heard so you mentioned
+[663.04 --> 668.14]  balmer and as we all know you guys have had a change in leadership here recently uh is the timing
+[668.14 --> 675.80]  there uh coincidental uh or was that change in leadership kind of leading to this this this new
+[675.80 --> 683.60]  stuff uh this rich again um i do not think it was coincidental uh if we look at the fact that um
+[683.60 --> 692.28]  dotnet supporting linux and office supporting ios happened in the same year um i think uh that's
+[692.28 --> 700.98]  clearly showing that we're trying to reach out to um uh you know to our customers and provide products
+[700.98 --> 709.22]  on the os's where that they're using so uh i i think you're just seeing a shift in strategy
+[709.22 --> 716.90]  at a fairly broad um level in microsoft i have to give you guys credit too because when you're
+[716.90 --> 724.56]  embracing it you guys really are embracing open source um on github uh mit licensed stuff taking
+[724.56 --> 728.78]  pull requests you know i always compare apple and microsoft when i'm looking at strategies because
+[728.78 --> 733.14]  i just enjoy watching you guys do things apple's still kind of just like throwing their open source
+[733.14 --> 739.36]  over the wall and just like here you go you know they're not really embracing it as a thing as much
+[739.36 --> 744.76]  but you guys seem like you're really going for it yeah i think that's something that we that we
+[744.76 --> 748.26]  learned over the years is i mean my team in particular we did open source or should say
+[748.26 --> 753.12]  source open for a lot longer than uh than just the you know the current open source strategy like
+[753.12 --> 757.00]  there was the managed sensibility framework that we published on code black a while ago
+[757.00 --> 761.82]  but the the challenges that we always had that we basically did that you know source open where we
+[761.82 --> 766.50]  basically give you the source but then there is a lot of challenges around us keeping the community
+[766.50 --> 770.68]  around alive because it's not really the real thing might we give you like every once in a while
+[770.68 --> 774.92]  the drop of the source and so the one thing that we learned over the years is that first of all
+[774.92 --> 779.82]  that's just not sustainable from our side because if you think of microsoft as a company that delivers
+[779.82 --> 785.66]  um uh you know a bunch of products then you always have these massive release cadences where
+[785.66 --> 790.78]  you know towards the end game you are focusing on fixing bugs stabilization all of that and then the
+[790.78 --> 795.38]  first thing that you stop doing is you know things that don't directly contribute value towards that
+[795.38 --> 799.68]  goal and so from our point of view like maintaining an open source site somewhere as a
+[799.68 --> 804.58]  as a site project it's just not maintainable it's the first thing that gets it's cut when you know
+[804.58 --> 810.12]  people have to focus so the only way you can sustain open source is if if what you see on github is the
+[810.12 --> 814.26]  real deal because that's something we can't cut right like when we stabilize then you know and we have to
+[814.26 --> 820.04]  commit to the same repository everybody sees then there's really no option for us uh to discontinue that
+[820.04 --> 824.12]  work and i think that's also something that the community really appreciates because i think in open
+[824.12 --> 828.64]  source in general and i think that's true in any community it's definitely true in marriages right that
+[828.64 --> 833.84]  people don't want to get surprised right you basically want to have a trusted relationship
+[833.84 --> 838.14]  with each other so if you get the impression that microsoft is holding something back because we go
+[838.14 --> 842.88]  dark for half a year like even if we don't do anything bad it still has this very bad taste of us
+[842.88 --> 846.70]  not telling me everything right and i think that's something that i think we learned very you know
+[846.70 --> 851.56]  the hard way over the years and uh but i totally agree with your sentiment that you know i was a customer
+[851.56 --> 856.58]  for a long time i pitched about microsoft like everybody else and uh one thing i realized internally is that
+[856.58 --> 860.58]  you know things if they change they really change i mean people really embrace it and then go
+[860.58 --> 864.92]  wholeheartedly with that vision and that's why i'm so excited about open source because i think
+[864.92 --> 870.52]  you know we normally have like any way to to back off from that like now we are all in and i think that
+[870.52 --> 875.56]  this trend will continue i like the term all in too especially for you because like you said when you
+[875.56 --> 883.42]  make a turn or you make a change it tends to be pretty drastic or you know it's not an easy shift you
+[883.42 --> 889.26]  sort of make quick decisions when it comes to to big turns like that one thing you said that i'd like
+[889.26 --> 894.06]  to camp out on for just a second was the flip side of open source i never really thought about and maybe
+[894.06 --> 898.96]  this is a new term to me or just a new term in general but source open versus open source being
+[898.96 --> 904.86]  pretty much the exact opposite where open source is focused on uh like jared said not pulling an apple
+[904.86 --> 908.94]  where you're just throwing the code over the over the wall and hoping for the best and not really
+[908.94 --> 914.16]  embracing the community and where can you talk a little bit about that shift particularly with
+[914.16 --> 919.22]  source open versus open source and maybe i guess maybe you've already done that to a degree but
+[919.22 --> 924.44]  feel free to ramble on source open versus open source for a bit do you have any thoughts on that varoon
+[924.44 --> 931.06]  yeah i think we had a reference sources up there for a while they were under the reference source
+[931.06 --> 939.08]  license um but it was you know basically one way so what we this time it's very different we have
+[939.08 --> 945.02]  resources up there and there's a lot of activity and we are basically two way it's basically the real
+[945.02 --> 950.40]  way i mean what you were referring with apple is probably what we were doing earlier but the current
+[950.40 --> 957.80]  effort is really about getting our stuff open source in a meaningful way and as you know your question
+[957.80 --> 962.84]  earlier the mood in the dotnet team and you know how we're looking at it you know i i would actually
+[962.84 --> 969.70]  put it this way there's a lot of excitement within the team and that's reflecting on the repo uh
+[969.70 --> 975.04]  basically every day we have you know stand-ups and hallway meetings and stuff like that and chats
+[975.04 --> 980.32]  uh and everyone is super excited like we are talking about you know what's the next full request
+[980.32 --> 985.56]  coming and we're discussing about those and having a good time about it i think all of that is kind of
+[985.56 --> 991.16]  reflecting on you know github the all the energy in the team the team in general is very excited about
+[991.16 --> 999.10]  it excited about the open source aspect what um when you say team varoon um beyond you rich and emo
+[999.10 --> 1006.16]  um who is who is the dotnet team you know how how big is that i mean obviously it's probably large but
+[1006.16 --> 1013.14]  you know how give the audience a an example of how big your team is and the excitement size well i'll just
+[1013.14 --> 1021.70]  cover the team size we have a lot of people working on like on dotnet in general um in the division so
+[1021.70 --> 1027.58]  we're in developer division and so we have a ton of people working on you know visual studio on dotnet
+[1027.58 --> 1033.34]  framework on compilers but i think your question is more maybe the size of the team that is working
+[1033.34 --> 1039.98]  on dotnet core itself that's certainly well with the team that released the framework libraries that
+[1039.98 --> 1045.80]  you saw there's tens of people that are working on that and then the runtime will come later there's
+[1045.80 --> 1052.32]  some other set of tens of people working on that uh so all told i think you're probably looking at
+[1052.32 --> 1058.28]  about 100 people working on uh the code base that's going to ship in um that's going to be available on
+[1058.28 --> 1064.26]  github that's actually a lot of investment if you're wanting to you know make it bet on dotnet
+[1064.26 --> 1070.02]  um you can see that there's a lot of people working at microsoft to provide you with a quality code base
+[1070.02 --> 1077.16]  so let's talk about exactly which pieces of code are out there right now because let's face it y'all
+[1077.16 --> 1082.90]  have a lot of software over there and there's distinctions between dotnet core dotnet framework
+[1082.90 --> 1088.18]  entity framework so on and so forth if you go to your guys's microsoft's github page which i think is
+[1088.18 --> 1095.36]  just microsoft dot github dot io um tons of repos kind of highlight the big ones and kind of show us
+[1095.36 --> 1101.74]  tell us maybe what's not there yet well yeah so basically if you look at dotnet core what you see
+[1101.74 --> 1107.50]  today on github is a very small number of libraries we have immutable collections we have the metadata
+[1107.50 --> 1113.32]  reader that rostin is using we have xml and we have our vector library that uh enables sim the
+[1113.32 --> 1117.82]  intrinsics and you know the question is why did we pick these four and not some other random slice and
+[1117.82 --> 1122.76]  the the the reason is as i said earlier like from forest number one priority is to make open source
+[1122.76 --> 1127.76]  real is that the thing that you see on the website is the thing that we can actually build uh ourselves
+[1127.76 --> 1133.34]  and actually you know use the you know the actual source to deliver the the actual product and so
+[1133.34 --> 1137.48]  there's some engineering initiative that we have to do internally to decouple our our built
+[1137.48 --> 1142.22]  infrastructure from from the libraries themselves and as you can imagine like dev dev is super large and
+[1142.22 --> 1147.40]  we have you know tens 10 years of like you know code base uh and built infrastructure that we have to
+[1147.40 --> 1150.96]  decouple in order to make that work so that these four libraries that are out there on github right
+[1150.96 --> 1155.78]  now and dotnet core are essentially just you know the libraries that you know we could easily extract
+[1155.78 --> 1160.26]  because they're the you know the most recent ones we did um xml is certainly not the most recent one
+[1160.26 --> 1164.28]  but it was right you know one of our or few libraries that we could just say okay this is the one we can
+[1164.28 --> 1169.50]  decouple very quickly and so what you will see over over time is that um the entire dotnet core stack
+[1169.50 --> 1175.08]  which basically includes the runtime includes the bcl layer includes networking uh and uh also
+[1175.08 --> 1180.66]  includes hpl.net on top as the app model will be open sourced and so as right now as i said there's
+[1180.66 --> 1185.34]  a smaller segment in it so you can basically watch us as we add more libraries and i think you know
+[1185.34 --> 1189.16]  over the next couple of weeks there's like i think three or four libraries being scheduled for being
+[1189.16 --> 1194.14]  added uh console is being one of them data flow is another and so that you know there's certainly more
+[1194.14 --> 1199.16]  growth if you look at the other repos as i said that if you look at dotnet core it's you know one way to
+[1199.16 --> 1205.04]  think about the core fx repo is it's essentially the bcl and so the bcl is basically the libraries
+[1205.04 --> 1210.58]  that everybody has to use right and then you have asp.net which is uh essentially the um the modern
+[1210.58 --> 1216.10]  web uh framework that's just on top of dotnet core as well as the full framework as a as a runtime
+[1216.10 --> 1221.12]  option and then you have entity framework and you have uh the you know the rost and compilers which
+[1221.12 --> 1225.72]  are not on github yet they're on complex still and so the all these things in combination are
+[1225.72 --> 1231.54]  effective with the dotnet platform and um asp.net basically when they started developing uh asp.net
+[1231.54 --> 1236.58]  five they already knew that they would go open source entirely so they started pretty much uh you
+[1236.58 --> 1241.12]  know working on github from day one versus on our side as i said we you know dotnet core is still
+[1241.12 --> 1247.08]  something that is in our internal servers and we're extracting it as we go and so um i think that
+[1247.08 --> 1251.96]  should cover what's on github now as far as the dotnet framework goes we essentially have two stacks
+[1251.96 --> 1257.34]  and right now if you go to the dotnet uh blog i just published a blog post about dotnet core and
+[1257.34 --> 1261.90]  how it relates to the full framework so you can think of dotnet essentially our side as being two
+[1261.90 --> 1267.18]  stacks one of them is the is the dotnet framework which is the you know you know full flavored stack
+[1267.18 --> 1272.32]  that we shipped you know 15 years ago uh and uh that is the one that actually includes you know
+[1272.32 --> 1276.82]  desktop scenarios it includes web scenarios it includes uh pretty much every scenario the developer ever
+[1276.82 --> 1281.44]  wanted and then on the other side you have dotnet core which is which is essentially a fork
+[1281.44 --> 1285.78]  and so the question is why do we have a fork and the the the reason really is it has to do with
+[1285.78 --> 1291.62]  our ability to evolve that stack so that in core is essentially a stack where factoring concerns and
+[1291.62 --> 1297.40]  modularity was a key concern from day one versus dotnet framework was never a concern as far as
+[1297.40 --> 1301.20]  deployment goes because you know the dotnet framework was designed to be deployed with windows
+[1301.20 --> 1306.70]  as one monolithic entity so factoring was never really a concern but now when you think about the you
+[1306.70 --> 1313.22]  know the breadth of devices and uh the the scale that it has to um um has to do then the question
+[1313.22 --> 1317.18]  really becomes how do we ensure that we have the same architecture and can evolve this thing over
+[1317.18 --> 1320.96]  the time and so when we did dotnet core we really focused on that and that's why we have two stacks
+[1320.96 --> 1326.96]  today and uh as far as open source goes one of the one of the key things that that we need to focus
+[1326.96 --> 1331.80]  on is being able to not just release source on a regular cadence but also take contributions back
+[1331.80 --> 1335.84]  and i think an open source product isn't really an open source product unless you can really involve
+[1335.84 --> 1340.44]  the community which obviously involves you know bug fixes and spec reviews but it also involves
+[1340.44 --> 1345.12]  actually taking code and so the dotnet framework because it ships with windows it's you know pushed
+[1345.12 --> 1350.32]  out by windows update there's a super high compact bar for that and the problem is once you ship on 1.8
+[1350.32 --> 1356.00]  billion machines it's really no longer about whether you fulfill your contract it's also about the fact
+[1356.00 --> 1360.72]  that do you fulfill the implied contract because when you have apps running in that you know at that
+[1360.72 --> 1366.16]  you know sheer size then there's a lot of like implicit dependencies so even for us it's very
+[1366.16 --> 1370.48]  hard to evolve the full framework at this point because every time you make a change there's this
+[1370.48 --> 1375.38]  trade-off between oh did this break somebody or not and the dotnet core stack is completely designed
+[1375.38 --> 1381.56]  to be app local so from our point of view it's very easy to actually take contributions on on dotnet core
+[1381.56 --> 1386.40]  because it's very easy to reason about what happens if we take that source code and so that's why
+[1386.40 --> 1390.48]  dotnet framework um you know we released parts of it that corresponds to all
+[1390.48 --> 1395.92]  core stack as open source on github in the sense that it's an open source compliant license so it's
+[1395.92 --> 1400.56]  all using the the mit license but we don't run it as an open source project so we don't take
+[1400.56 --> 1405.60]  contributions back on the full framework stack uh from our point of view the the real open source
+[1405.60 --> 1411.76]  strategy is on dotnet core and that's where the focus of attention is all right let's pause the show
+[1411.76 --> 1415.92]  just a minute give a shout out to a sponsor i want to thank top top for their support of this show
+[1415.92 --> 1421.68]  you know besides my personal experience with top top pure charity uh as many of you know who've
+[1421.68 --> 1426.88]  been listening to the show a while and those who are new uh i work at a non-profit called pure charity
+[1427.44 --> 1433.52]  and earlier this year we had a huge need for uh several ruby developers and within a matter of
+[1433.52 --> 1438.40]  weeks top to helped us find some of the best and we still have them on our team some of the best
+[1438.96 --> 1444.08]  ruby on rails developers we could ever find this show in particular we're talking about dotnet we're
+[1444.08 --> 1448.88]  talking to the team at microsoft behind dotnet core effects being open source and what they're
+[1448.88 --> 1453.60]  doing with the dotnet framework but even you as a as a developer or someone out there who's trying
+[1453.60 --> 1459.44]  to hire a developer uh to join their team go to top top.com they'll take great care of you you can
+[1459.44 --> 1464.80]  freelance this developer you can hire dotnet developers the full gamut top top.com tell them
+[1464.80 --> 1472.24]  the changelog sent you so dotnet core you said the the term bco i translated as his base class license
+[1472.24 --> 1477.92]  or sorry um base class library my bad i was uh stuck on your word of license back there for a
+[1477.92 --> 1483.52]  second but am i right to assume that when you say base class library okay so you use the term bcl there
+[1483.52 --> 1490.08]  to talk about dotnet core um and you use the word forked too so to slow down a bit for the listeners who
+[1490.08 --> 1494.96]  are like just probably like i am like asking a bunch of questions as they're listening to you or um
+[1494.96 --> 1503.20]  um is is dotnet core then a fork of of the framework then and will there be will there be a second
+[1503.20 --> 1506.88]  version of the framework that's sort of open source and the dotnet framework that's sort of
+[1506.88 --> 1513.92]  proprietary and closed source that you control that's that's kind of the model except that uh you
+[1513.92 --> 1518.32]  know as i said the dotnet framework is super large but it also has client technologies like winforms and
+[1518.32 --> 1525.20]  wpath on top but there's certainly also the bcl part in the full framework as well and so when we
+[1525.20 --> 1529.60]  when i said fork i mean you can think of it we took the sources in the full framework and just
+[1529.60 --> 1534.80]  packaged it slightly differently for dotnet core and so one thing we did for example is uh changing the
+[1534.80 --> 1539.84]  assemblies themselves or the you know physical files that actually contain the the binary code and
+[1539.84 --> 1544.24]  that is basically done in order to support the new factoring goals and that required some changes to
+[1544.24 --> 1550.96]  the source so um from that point of view there are some differences in the in the api sets but we
+[1550.96 --> 1556.16]  still are fully committed on keeping a story where you can basically create libraries that run on either
+[1556.16 --> 1560.72]  side so you can only create a library that runs on full framework as well as dotnet core so there is
+[1560.72 --> 1568.00]  a compatibility story between the two stacks but as far as evolution goes you can think of it as similar to
+[1568.00 --> 1572.88]  the you know to open source in general where you basically have uh you know the the latest hot
+[1572.88 --> 1576.72]  stuff is you know whatever the latest commit in the repo is people can download this build it locally
+[1576.72 --> 1582.56]  and run it then the next step on our side is we release open source uh pre-packaged as a bunch of
+[1582.56 --> 1586.72]  new get packages and so we ship these package every once in a while when the team that owns the particular
+[1586.72 --> 1591.76]  component you know test that component and signs off of that but that's a you know per component thing
+[1591.76 --> 1596.48]  and then the next step is basically we take a bunch of new get packages and effectively do the same thing
+[1596.48 --> 1600.24]  that open sources with distributions and we basically take a whole bunch of packages together
+[1600.24 --> 1605.44]  and say this is the next version of dotnet core and so a fourth step conceptually is it's porting
+[1605.44 --> 1610.24]  these you know this you know the the innovation that happened on dotnet core back to the full
+[1610.24 --> 1615.76]  framework and that is like just from a machine engineering if yeah effort that is always somewhat
+[1615.76 --> 1620.88]  lacking behind because as i said touching full framework is hard we take our responsibility on
+[1620.88 --> 1626.64]  compatibility extremely seriously so we don't just roll the latest build out and so that that requires some
+[1626.64 --> 1631.60]  some some some delay essentially and so from that point of view the the core pieces of it are
+[1631.60 --> 1634.80]  available as open source on the on the full framework but not everything is
+[1636.48 --> 1641.04]  do you have that written down somewhere because uh my head's spinning a little bit it sounds like a lot
+[1641.04 --> 1646.56]  of process maybe your direct customers probably follow that a little better than i did but it seems like
+[1646.56 --> 1652.48]  um perhaps some clarity on exactly how it all works do you guys have that documented anywhere or
+[1652.48 --> 1656.96]  somebody who wanted to get involved could go and say okay here's how here's what i can contribute with
+[1656.96 --> 1662.56]  with here's the stuff i can't here's how it all gets shipped is that anywhere yeah so as i said like
+[1662.56 --> 1666.96]  there's basically two blog posts on our side that basically summarize them up there there's one on
+[1666.96 --> 1672.80]  dotnet core open source which is uh about two weeks old and then just today i published a blog post on
+[1672.80 --> 1677.44]  what is dotnet core and how it relates to the full framework um and you know what are the what are
+[1677.44 --> 1682.24]  the differences between the two and how do we think about that gotcha awesome now i'm sitting here you
+[1682.24 --> 1687.68]  said the word forked and this might be a fun tangent um you guys got some forks out here
+[1687.68 --> 1694.96]  on your guys's microsoft page you forked redis you forked node you forked docker uh safe to assume that
+[1694.96 --> 1700.96]  you guys are building technologies on top of these open source projects uh in-house uh well this is rich
+[1700.96 --> 1706.64]  again there's probably a little bit of clarification that's be useful here okay uh so there's actually two
+[1706.64 --> 1714.64]  github well actually there's multiple github orgs okay um that we're using microsoft the microsoft
+[1714.64 --> 1723.44]  org is the main github organization that microsoft is using um as you might guess and so there's teams
+[1723.44 --> 1729.76]  that we're like we don't even know anything about necessarily that operate in that org and so you said
+[1729.76 --> 1737.92]  you know someone for redis um we actually have no clue um about that yeah i mean obviously we could
+[1737.92 --> 1743.52]  find out kind of thing but um we have like zero insight into that i'm seeing now at the bottom of
+[1743.52 --> 1749.76]  that page there's other hype microsoft github orgs and you guys have man double digits yeah we actually
+[1749.76 --> 1756.56]  have like 20 or 30 or 40 orgs we're actually trying to move more people over to the microsoft org to make
+[1756.56 --> 1765.68]  it a little bit easier to navigate but um the thing um is our work is actually in the dotnet org
+[1765.68 --> 1771.20]  gotcha yeah that's where dotnet core lives uh actually verun can speak to to this piece what
+[1771.20 --> 1780.72]  the dotnet org is and why um dotnet core is in there right so basically dotnet repo is actually the
+[1780.72 --> 1786.16]  repo for dotnet foundation the open source effort um you know the open source community effort
+[1786.16 --> 1794.24]  around dotnet in general with the community so dotnet core became open source it joined the
+[1794.24 --> 1800.72]  community as well dotnet foundation community so they were setting up a new repo um so basically
+[1800.72 --> 1808.00]  uh you know we had a lively discussion and they actually set it up the repo directly in the foundation
+[1808.00 --> 1815.60]  so that org uh in the github you know organization is dotnet foundation organization and dotnet core
+[1816.16 --> 1823.68]  has joined uh the organization and is basically doing all the open source work in the open and you know
+[1823.68 --> 1830.32]  rich can talk about how mono is also in there um you know basically actively participating in the
+[1830.32 --> 1837.36]  discussions and the efforts yeah what vroom was mentioning is there we have a dotnet foundation
+[1837.36 --> 1847.20]  dot org website and there's some forums on that at forums dot dotnet foundation dot org and for those
+[1847.20 --> 1852.64]  of you um who know about dotnet open source you'll probably know about the mono project and so we're
+[1852.64 --> 1861.36]  very much um collaborating with that project both in a code sense as well as um collaborating together
+[1861.36 --> 1867.04]  and talking together in these forums and if you take a look at the forums you'll probably get a sense of that
+[1867.36 --> 1875.60]  okay and for those who are unaware can you uh give a brief rundown of mono sure mono is essentially um
+[1876.40 --> 1885.60]  a clone of um the dotnet that um microsoft built it's i don't know the exact date of its inception
+[1886.24 --> 1894.08]  but um it's in the early 2000s for sure and uh it's headed by a guy named uh miguel de casa
+[1894.08 --> 1901.36]  who actually had worked on some other open source projects i think he'd worked on the gnome uh window
+[1901.36 --> 1910.08]  manager oh i'm correct on that point and um anyway it's it's a project that uh a lot of people have
+[1910.08 --> 1917.20]  used um more recently it's actually been used to target ios and android as part of the uh a tool set
+[1917.20 --> 1925.44]  built by xamarin who miguel actually works for he's actually a founder of that company and um
+[1925.44 --> 1931.20]  the thing i think is really interesting right now is microsoft like the dotnet team at microsoft and
+[1931.20 --> 1939.28]  the mono project are now working closely together to um kind of deliver coherent and consistent dotnet
+[1939.28 --> 1947.04]  implementations for all um dotnet users on the planet essentially and we didn't quite have that
+[1947.04 --> 1953.92]  kind of an arrangement before so uh i think it's really really positive and uh you'll see that i
+[1953.92 --> 1959.52]  think you'll really see that come together probably next year right now we're just kind of trying to get
+[1959.52 --> 1966.64]  everything laid out you know this news of us open sourcing is also new to miguel so i think by the time
+[1966.64 --> 1972.48]  we get say to you know the middle of next year i think we'll have a much more a much better sense
+[1972.48 --> 1976.80]  of what it is that the two projects are doing together we're very much you know still trying
+[1976.80 --> 1981.60]  to figure that out that's awesome i mean i think the cross-platform aspect of this is going to be a
+[1981.60 --> 1988.48]  huge win for developers everywhere i fact checked your uh your your gnome there and you drilled it uh
+[1988.48 --> 1993.60]  okay awesome so just uh while you're talking there i was like i looked it up yeah yeah i do i mean we
+[1993.60 --> 1998.80]  we know miguel personally so uh but i just wanted to yeah make sure that was correct
+[2000.72 --> 2005.44]  can we uh maybe camp out there for just a sec on the on the cross-platform thing and maybe just the
+[2005.44 --> 2009.20]  the fork thing and the open source thing i think it's sort of the the summary of what we've been
+[2009.20 --> 2014.96]  talking about for the last 20-30 minutes but um you know what's the true goal here you know varoon
+[2014.96 --> 2020.72]  you mentioned earlier uh cross-platform as a is a nice advantage of of going open source
+[2020.72 --> 2026.40]  um it mentioned embracing the community embracing actually open source versus source open
+[2026.96 --> 2031.52]  what's the what do you think what can you share about the true goal the overall goal of
+[2032.16 --> 2037.92]  open sourcing.net core versus keeping a closed source and not embracing community
+[2039.12 --> 2045.12]  so i think you meant me not varoon but that's okay um so i think from the the other the other
+[2045.12 --> 2054.88]  um maybe i have a light sound so soon was it was it mo yeah oh sorry you know you take it i think the
+[2055.84 --> 2061.52]  one of the one of the challenges is as i said is that you know microsoft is as which mentioned now
+[2061.52 --> 2065.92]  certainly going you know out of more devices i think the the general realization that everybody
+[2065.92 --> 2070.96]  in the industry is now uh making is that you know there's no longer like true monoculture so
+[2070.96 --> 2075.68]  there there there's many like you know device ranges and like they all have certain market
+[2075.68 --> 2081.68]  segments but in order to to be successful uh as far as an application experience skills those span
+[2081.68 --> 2085.68]  devices now right like you can even if you're say even if microsoft would say you want to focus on
+[2085.68 --> 2090.32]  windows the the reality is there's so many other devices and experiences out there that you kind of
+[2090.32 --> 2095.12]  have to integrate into that's expected from an app standpoint that basically requires you to to
+[2095.12 --> 2100.08]  support not just one thing you can still say as an application developer you know i provide you know
+[2100.08 --> 2104.48]  the best experience or you know most of my features in a certain in a certain vertical but you know
+[2104.48 --> 2109.60]  the integration points are the ones that you still have to you know deal with somehow and uh dot
+[2109.60 --> 2115.92]  net was pretty much from the get-go designed to become to to have a single experience on a variety of
+[2115.92 --> 2120.48]  scenarios so if you look at the original design of win forms and web forms for example somebody really
+[2120.48 --> 2124.32]  made sure that they are pretty much the same no i would argue that for that that was a mistake
+[2124.32 --> 2129.04]  because it's not an event-based paradigm but that you know in the spirit of making things similar i think
+[2129.04 --> 2133.84]  that that's still very much uh an important scenario for for for many people because if you think from
+[2133.84 --> 2137.76]  a just on an epic from an architectural layering perspective there's always pieces of your code
+[2137.76 --> 2142.48]  that you want to reuse across the devices right some business logic you know some you know some
+[2142.48 --> 2148.40]  logic that does something in your app and and you know from it from a scenario standpoint dot net
+[2148.40 --> 2152.48]  wants to enable those scenarios and that that has to that certainly means that we have to go
+[2153.04 --> 2157.52]  effectively where the app has to go and in today's world as i said like there's mac there's ios there's
+[2157.52 --> 2162.00]  android there's there's linux and so we you have to enable the stack to go there from that from
+[2162.00 --> 2166.64]  that point of view i think that open source is really about increasing the breadth of dot net
+[2167.36 --> 2172.48]  and making it easier for people to just stick to one technology if they if they chose to do that but
+[2172.48 --> 2176.24]  you know but they'd always had great availability with native code so if you want to do something
+[2176.24 --> 2181.60]  else uh you know providing a native ui for example uh and then you know call into dot net or the other
+[2181.60 --> 2185.92]  way around there's certainly stories for that as well so when we talk about cross-platform i just one
+[2185.92 --> 2190.24]  question here for the listeners who are thinking like okay so what does this thing work on what
+[2190.24 --> 2196.16]  can i if i'm hacking today could i pull it down start working on it today what platforms are currently
+[2196.16 --> 2201.84]  supported by dot net dot net core dot net uh framework framework that's the word i was looking for
+[2201.84 --> 2210.24]  the other f word the good f word uh i could take that one that's rich um right now both dot net core and
+[2210.24 --> 2217.36]  dot net framework support only windows so just to back up a little bit we've we've clearly stated that
+[2217.36 --> 2225.68]  um for dot net core we're going to um uh support it on mac and linux as well and so we kind of had a
+[2225.68 --> 2232.56]  decision to make which was should we wait until we've done all the engineering work at which point
+[2232.56 --> 2239.36]  we support linux and mac as well as windows and then open source or should we open source with our
+[2239.36 --> 2247.76]  windows implementation start to build a community and then build the uh linux and mac support in the
+[2247.76 --> 2254.88]  open and so as you can guess we chose this latter option and i i like that option yeah i really feel
+[2254.88 --> 2260.00]  like it was the right option especially given the response that we saw i think it's just been
+[2260.56 --> 2266.40]  hugely validated that it was the right option that's essentially what we're doing so we do not yet have the
+[2266.40 --> 2271.68]  the linux and mac support but we're uh we've started already started working on it um we have
+[2271.68 --> 2277.68]  people who that's their main job is building linux and mac support into dot net core and uh you're going
+[2277.68 --> 2283.60]  to see that um start to arrive pretty soon now it's it's it's not going to all appear on one day
+[2284.48 --> 2287.76]  it's going to be very iterative is there one that's first before the other
+[2289.20 --> 2296.32]  that's a good question i don't think we've made a plan uh quite like that yet well what i would say is
+[2296.40 --> 2299.76]  in general like if you look at how dot net works i mean there's certainly things that are
+[2299.76 --> 2303.92]  innovative platform independent right i mean all the collection libraries like immutable collections
+[2303.92 --> 2308.88]  probably works today as it is already on any environment you know things that interact with
+[2308.88 --> 2313.44]  the operating system like file systems and other things are obviously a bit more involved and then
+[2313.44 --> 2319.20]  as you go to the lower stack uh you know we have this very you know thin layer that basically ties the
+[2319.20 --> 2324.48]  the actual framework towards runtime and so you know on our side we basically have two different
+[2324.48 --> 2329.44]  runtime strategies today we have a legit based runtime and we have an ahead of time compiled runtime
+[2329.44 --> 2333.76]  and so we also make investments to make the runtimes available cross-clad but that's obviously
+[2333.76 --> 2338.48]  something that is more like an all-in or nothing because you need the entire runtime uh up and running
+[2338.48 --> 2343.60]  before you can actually run any managed code so there's certainly some um you know some investment
+[2343.60 --> 2348.56]  there as well but as far as libraries go i mean you can probably already compile some of our libraries
+[2348.56 --> 2353.04]  there that are in github i would say that the metadata reader probably uh in some way or the other
+[2353.04 --> 2358.64]  already works on mono because there was a demo that we gilded where uh the majesty shop bb compilers
+[2358.64 --> 2364.88]  we use that component already run on mono new collections should just work and so uh i think the very first
+[2364.88 --> 2369.52]  thing we probably do is on our side uh you know add the build scripts we can actually build on a non-windows
+[2369.52 --> 2374.56]  machine and then set up a ci system so we can actually uh you know validate for requests across the
+[2374.56 --> 2378.96]  different platforms but as far as the ability goes to just take the source from one of it today you should
+[2378.96 --> 2383.36]  be already be able to do that the one thing i want to add is that you know it's always true that
+[2383.36 --> 2388.08]  dotnet was you know cross-platform if you screen hard enough right because the mono was around for a
+[2388.08 --> 2392.64]  long time now but i think the real difference is now that we normally have a fourth community you know
+[2392.64 --> 2396.72]  where you know one side does the windows thing which is microsoft and then this is other community that
+[2396.72 --> 2402.56]  does the linux implementation the intent of dotnet core is really to have one unified code base that runs on
+[2403.12 --> 2408.72]  you know linux windows and mac and not just that also on top of that microsoft actually says we support
+[2408.96 --> 2412.88]  these three things so it's no longer the case that you know there's a microsoft distribution that is
+[2412.88 --> 2416.80]  windows and then there is let's say a mono distribution that does linux and mac it will
+[2416.80 --> 2421.92]  actually be coming from you know from from from one corporation so to speak you know as far as baking
+[2421.92 --> 2426.64]  goes but as far as the community goes it's really just one big community where microsoft plays one
+[2426.64 --> 2431.20]  part in it and then you know the mono community plays another part and whoever else wants to join in
+[2431.20 --> 2436.48]  plays their part all right let's take a break from the show real quick we got to mention a sponsor
+[2436.48 --> 2443.12]  that sponsor is rackspace rackspace loves open source they love supporting their community and
+[2443.12 --> 2447.28]  just one of the ways they're doing that is by sponsoring this show right here that you're listening
+[2447.28 --> 2452.32]  to and that's why they're giving you and everyone else who wants it fifty dollars a month in credit
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+[2482.64 --> 2488.00]  for the usage above fifty dollars a month they have open source libraries to support any language of
+[2488.00 --> 2493.68]  your choice and for those listening today they do support dot net go to the change law dot com
+[2493.68 --> 2500.16]  slash rackspace to get started and now back to the show earlier on you guys mentioned i think uh
+[2500.80 --> 2508.00]  was it emma who made the marriage analogy i want to get i want to get back to that here uh
+[2508.80 --> 2513.76]  yeah that was all about his personal life was laughing his butt off so if rins got something up his
+[2513.76 --> 2518.56]  sleeve i think well i want to get back to that for a second because uh i love you guys excitement
+[2518.56 --> 2523.92]  and this is a really cool stuff the community was you know jumped on it everybody even microsoft haters
+[2523.92 --> 2528.40]  were like wow that's really awesome um and you mentioned how excited you guys are for pull requests
+[2528.40 --> 2533.04]  and stuff and i would say you're very much in the honeymoon phase of open source where everything's
+[2533.04 --> 2537.84]  exciting you know i've had that situation where i get a bug fixed to my repository and i didn't have
+[2537.84 --> 2542.48]  to do it myself and that was awesome um we spoke with a lot of people over the years where
+[2543.12 --> 2548.00]  they've been maintaining open source projects for a time and started off exciting and they got you
+[2548.00 --> 2554.64]  know a lot of press or whatever and uh it was fun and then over time it became hard work um obviously
+[2554.64 --> 2560.40]  you guys are doing this as part of you know your jobs but running open source project can be difficult
+[2560.40 --> 2567.76]  it can be taxing it can have moments where um you know this pull request you know is is excellent
+[2567.76 --> 2571.52]  but it actually goes against our business goals so there's all these different concerns were these
+[2571.52 --> 2577.04]  things you guys thought about as you decided open source yeah i can take this one this is varon
+[2578.16 --> 2582.56]  yeah i think uh here the culture of the team kind of comes into play uh you know that's what i was
+[2582.56 --> 2589.04]  talking about earlier so you know when i look at the team our engineering team you know all of them
+[2589.04 --> 2595.12]  are really excited about you know open source they feel like uh they're not just doing it you know as
+[2595.12 --> 2600.32]  part of their jobs i mean if you look at the github repo you know how it looks and everything folks are
+[2600.32 --> 2606.56]  truly excited the only difference is they're getting paid for it uh you know so basically that's why i
+[2606.56 --> 2612.80]  think the excitement around open source uh you know will continue here there are you know obviously the
+[2612.80 --> 2617.60]  kind of things you mentioned about you know we have to think through you know how we are going to process
+[2617.60 --> 2623.68]  you know full request in a democratic way uh you know moving forward uh you know how do we you know
+[2623.68 --> 2629.52]  work on some of the contentious things you know obviously you know as engineers we tend to get into
+[2629.52 --> 2635.36]  our discussions and stuff like that and how do we kind of handle them uh you know with a broader audience
+[2635.36 --> 2640.24]  so all of those challenges are true but i think the true uh you know thing that makes me excited
+[2640.24 --> 2645.04]  about this whole thing is the culture on the team that's that's really unique uh you know i was
+[2645.04 --> 2651.92]  telling this to you know imo the other day that you know it doesn't feel like that i am uh you know
+[2651.92 --> 2657.04]  working in a team which my friends think you know i am you know probably working as you know you know
+[2657.04 --> 2660.96]  my friends are not from microsoft they think they're probably wearing suits or something but
+[2662.24 --> 2669.28]  here i think the culture of the team is very very different truly excited and you know basically
+[2669.28 --> 2674.96]  uh you know if i use the phrase living in github you're not wearing suits then uh no we're not
+[2674.96 --> 2681.28]  wearing suits t-shirts shorts flip-flops or what uh in the summer we'd be wearing flip-flops um it's
+[2681.28 --> 2686.48]  pretty cold in washington right now that's true yeah it's just about freezing so um yeah we're skipping
+[2686.48 --> 2692.00]  the shorts uh well i've heard the rule is if it's above 30 even flip-flops are okay yeah i thought you
+[2692.00 --> 2695.84]  kept it so warm there as you wore your cold clothes on the way to work and when you got there you changed
+[2695.84 --> 2702.08]  into your warm clothes totally yes i i just like to comment on a question that you guys were kind
+[2702.08 --> 2708.16]  of asking earlier back to the motivation piece so we talked a lot about the motivation for open source
+[2708.16 --> 2715.68]  but we didn't um really address the motivation for cross-plat quite as much and um from a corporate
+[2715.68 --> 2722.40]  customer standpoint we actually do get a lot of customers coming to us that say uh you know really
+[2722.40 --> 2728.48]  love dotnet love c sharp it's very productive we can build the apps we want to with it but we've got
+[2728.48 --> 2734.08]  a bunch of linux machines um that we've been using and you know we're trying to consolidate
+[2734.72 --> 2743.12]  our dev platform across everything we do we want it to be dotnet um so please build a linux version for
+[2743.12 --> 2750.96]  us you might be surprised at how often that question comes through uh another one is that uh that's
+[2750.96 --> 2759.28]  fairly similar in nature is um i think we've publicly stated that about 20 of the vms in azure are linux now
+[2760.00 --> 2768.24]  and um we very much want to be able to give a consistent um offering of developer platforms that
+[2768.24 --> 2776.16]  work on both linux and windows server in azure you know azure will continue to have the model of you
+[2776.16 --> 2782.24]  you know it's your vm run what you want on it um so we're certainly happy to have people running linux
+[2782.24 --> 2789.68]  vms that run java on them or or whatever but um from like a first class offering standpoint we want
+[2789.68 --> 2796.80]  to make sure that people can run uh dotnet apps on linux on azure and so that those two those two kind
+[2796.80 --> 2804.24]  of things are really the cross-plat motivation for us on the server side you mentioned uh your corporate
+[2804.24 --> 2808.16]  friends so that's a good lead into the question we told you we were going to ask you about
+[2808.72 --> 2816.24]  just the change that this imposes to your corporate users who either didn't use open source
+[2816.24 --> 2820.96]  purposefully because they wanted to use something that was proprietary and had support or had something
+[2820.96 --> 2825.84]  to blame basically if something went wrong you know how does this change things for those corporate
+[2825.84 --> 2832.48]  users who may not embrace open source or who purposely didn't embrace open source for whatever the reasons were
+[2832.48 --> 2840.00]  first i think there's our first answer which is we're not really changing much about what it is we do
+[2841.12 --> 2847.36]  as you can imagine we've always had source control and so really all we're doing is taking our source
+[2847.36 --> 2855.84]  control system and hosting it on github and changing the license to something much more liberal so that's the
+[2855.84 --> 2862.16]  open source thing but we're not changing anything about our internal processes for how we go about
+[2862.16 --> 2869.84]  shipping quality commercial software um there's nothing really about that that's changing uh and
+[2869.84 --> 2875.28]  that's definitely a strong message we want to send our corporate customers the other side of it is if
+[2875.28 --> 2880.56]  you're a uh you know uncomfortable with open source or just don't care about it you don't really have to
+[2880.56 --> 2886.32]  think about it because you don't have to participate in the open source community if you don't want to
+[2886.32 --> 2893.92]  do and what we ship at the end of the day is still commercial software most uh for the foreseeable future
+[2893.92 --> 2900.24]  most of the code base is still going to have been written by microsoft engineers i mean we certainly want
+[2900.24 --> 2907.04]  to get to the the case that a very high percentage of pull requests come from the community but um you're
+[2907.04 --> 2914.16]  fundamentally still getting a product that was vetted by microsoft and is supported by microsoft
+[2914.16 --> 2920.96]  um support so i think for corporate customers you can still think of this very much as microsoft
+[2920.96 --> 2928.72]  commercial software and call it good awesome well as you guys know we usually close out uh with a
+[2928.72 --> 2935.68]  question about a programming hero now all three of you feel free to answer um but i know at least one of you
+[2935.68 --> 2941.36]  have somebody in mind so uh who is your guys's programming hero yeah so from my point of view
+[2941.36 --> 2946.64]  i already mentioned i was a customer for a long time for microsoft and um the reason i really jumped
+[2946.64 --> 2952.48]  on dotnet when it came out was the fact that i used delphi quite a bit before and uh i was i found
+[2952.48 --> 2957.60]  that delphi was an amazing experience and then the guy who did pretty much delphi went to microsoft and
+[2957.60 --> 2962.72]  did c-sharp and that's andrew heilsberg so from that point of view like he's he's somewhat my hero in
+[2962.72 --> 2968.16]  the sense that you know it set my career and uh influenced my decision to join microsoft as i said
+[2968.16 --> 2973.28]  many people here i didn't join microsoft i joined the team that owns dotnet and uh that happened to
+[2973.28 --> 2978.80]  be microsoft but if that would be any other place that's where i would have been awesome anybody else
+[2979.68 --> 2987.04]  uh that's good enough for me personally i don't know if faroon has uh an answer bill gates anybody
+[2987.04 --> 2989.92]  i'd say modern more than
+[2993.52 --> 2998.72]  you heard it here first another question that we tend to ask which i think probably is apropos for
+[2998.72 --> 3003.92]  you guys yeah is a call to arms uh for the open source community you're speaking directly to the
+[3003.92 --> 3009.04]  open source developers here today what would you say what how can they help you or what would you love
+[3009.60 --> 3013.44]  uh for the open source community to do with regard to your new you know dotnet open source stuff
+[3013.44 --> 3018.48]  yeah i can i can take that one so the one thing you just mentioned is like the honeymoon phase where
+[3018.48 --> 3023.60]  everything is awesome right um we will certainly like my team although like we certainly talked to
+[3023.60 --> 3028.08]  a bunch of other teams around here that did open source and you know already way past the honeymoon phase
+[3028.48 --> 3032.72]  like you know everything is different every every requirement is different so that's some of the
+[3032.72 --> 3036.08]  stuff that we're working on are things like you know how do we do api reviews what do we decide
+[3036.08 --> 3040.40]  something is good or not in a transparent fashion and so it is very likely that we will do mistakes
+[3040.40 --> 3045.04]  we will do not be as transparent as we promised we would be or we will miscommunicate certain
+[3045.04 --> 3049.52]  things or we will just annoy somebody by closing their pull request so if one of those things
+[3049.52 --> 3053.92]  happen then we absolutely do want to get feedback from the community and we want to have a conversation
+[3053.92 --> 3059.60]  about that and if you go to the forums uh at the net foundation.org there's already a whole bunch of
+[3059.60 --> 3063.92]  like people talking about how we do open source what we do well what we don't do well what we could
+[3063.92 --> 3070.32]  improve on what we should uh do differently and and that's really for me like the the primary uh
+[3070.80 --> 3074.24]  feedback that i am looking for i mean there's always people that want to do pull requests but
+[3074.24 --> 3079.20]  it's it's it's from all the people that we reach it's the minority but you know a lot of people
+[3079.20 --> 3084.16]  you know benefit from the transparency and so that's the thing i really want to get
+[3084.16 --> 3086.16]  i get a handle on whether we do a good job or not
+[3088.64 --> 3094.32]  so you mentioned dotnet foundation a couple times in the show uh it makes sense to mention here at the
+[3094.32 --> 3100.16]  end that um that we do plan to have you and beth or sorry varoon and beth on upcoming show to talk
+[3100.16 --> 3105.60]  about the dotnet foundation and what that is but can you talk a little bit about just a snapshot of
+[3105.60 --> 3111.52]  what the dotnet foundation is you mentioned earlier that uh core effects is is uh granted to i think is
+[3111.52 --> 3116.88]  the word you used to the dotnet foundation what does that mean what is it uh what is that foundation
+[3116.88 --> 3125.20]  yeah that's a great question so basically dotnet foundation you know is an effort uh which is to
+[3125.20 --> 3130.88]  aggregate the dotnet community kind of basically together there are a lot of projects that are happening
+[3130.88 --> 3136.16]  in process like some of the new ones that are coming on board like dotnet core so the idea is to
+[3136.16 --> 3141.60]  kind of have you know common place where we can you know kind of advance the community uh you know at
+[3141.60 --> 3147.76]  the same time together it is uh you know community driven effort it is being bootstrapped by microsoft
+[3147.76 --> 3156.00]  at this point uh but uh it is going to be a community driven it's its own entity separate from microsoft
+[3156.00 --> 3164.08]  its advisory council will also have people from the community so the whole idea behind dotnet foundation is
+[3164.08 --> 3170.56]  that like dotnet core has joined the foundation many other projects have you know joined the foundation
+[3170.56 --> 3176.40]  and they're actively contributing you know working with each other in the foundation so for all the
+[3176.40 --> 3181.44]  new open source developers or the current open source developers dotnet developers are exploring open
+[3181.44 --> 3187.44]  source is a great place to kind of bring your projects work together and kind of contribute in existing
+[3187.44 --> 3193.20]  projects or you know make your new ones with the community together there are a lot of advantages that
+[3193.20 --> 3199.12]  you know come from working together and growing a community so dotnet foundation is that one
+[3199.12 --> 3205.04]  one attempt in the upcoming you know podcast that we'll do we'll talk more about you know the exact
+[3205.04 --> 3210.16]  specifics but in terms of call to arms i'll recommend you know request everyone to visit the dotnet
+[3210.16 --> 3216.88]  foundation dot org website and learn more about it uh there is an email address where you can get in
+[3216.88 --> 3222.00]  touch with us uh and you know talk about your existing projects some of the new ideas you're thinking about
+[3223.04 --> 3228.56]  and i want to mention too um only because it's timely we don't usually time stamp our shows that much
+[3229.12 --> 3234.08]  to a degree but uh you've got as jared mentioned you've got some change happening in several open
+[3234.08 --> 3239.28]  source large open source communities where uh you've got corporate partners and sponsors that have
+[3239.28 --> 3245.04]  sort of been paving the way and we asked a couple questions around your choices with dotnet core and some
+[3245.04 --> 3250.08]  of the future we can expect in open source but i think it's worth mentioning just because of this tail off
+[3250.08 --> 3257.84]  the dotnet foundation the fact that at least what i see now is that your approach towards um the foundation
+[3257.84 --> 3263.92]  a lot of good open source is built around a foundation versus a corporate entity sort of open governance and
+[3263.92 --> 3268.32]  the community is what you mentioned there so i think from what i'm hearing it sounds like you guys are taking
+[3268.32 --> 3275.44]  the right steps to go towards linux and mac uh adoption for development platforms uh open sourcing the
+[3275.44 --> 3280.72]  the the platform itself or open sourcing you know dotnet core and and the the bcl as you mentioned
+[3280.72 --> 3286.80]  before so congrats definitely on that can you maybe mention anything else on that fact that uh you know
+[3286.80 --> 3293.12]  it's about community that that there's nothing um that's sort of like microsoft and then versus the
+[3293.12 --> 3298.24]  community it's sort of just based on this foundation absolutely and maybe tease the fact we're gonna have
+[3298.24 --> 3303.84]  this upcoming show with that you know tease the fact um i completely agree with you know the summary uh
+[3303.84 --> 3309.44]  around that it's very important to build open source projects around a community rather than a corporate
+[3309.44 --> 3316.48]  entity and that's what foundation aims to be um and i think it'll go a step further the idea is to
+[3316.48 --> 3322.32]  you know bring together all the other you know basically cool dotnet projects that are going on and
+[3322.32 --> 3327.20]  you know uh you know aggregating them at the same place so that they can connect with each other
+[3327.20 --> 3332.24]  and sort of you know cross-pollinate and you know participate in various projects and this kind of should
+[3332.24 --> 3340.16]  uh you know accelerate the whole dotnet community as a whole uh you know as imo said you know previously
+[3340.16 --> 3346.72]  we are all in into this um and the only way we'll be all in if you know all the community works together
+[3346.72 --> 3348.64]  then you know some you know guides from here
+[3351.12 --> 3355.60]  well i uh i know that jared and i are definitely excited to have you guys on the show we appreciate uh
+[3356.24 --> 3359.36]  you coming on the show beth sorry you couldn't make but we'll definitely catch up with you and
+[3359.36 --> 3364.48]  varoon on dotnet foundation dive deeper so for those listening with bait of breath on that one
+[3364.48 --> 3368.40]  stay tuned that might happen in the new year i'm not sure if it'll happen before christmas or not
+[3368.40 --> 3373.12]  we'll definitely we'll definitely do our best to try but rich emo and varoon thank you so much for
+[3373.12 --> 3378.32]  joining us today on this show and thank you to to everyone behind you your team behind you making
+[3378.32 --> 3382.32]  your appearance here on this show and talking about dotnet core and what's happening there
+[3382.32 --> 3387.84]  possible i know you've got a lot of excited people that are part of your team that are you know
+[3388.32 --> 3393.84]  lifting you up and and you know doing lots of great stuff so really appreciate all the effort that that
+[3393.84 --> 3401.20]  goes into making your appearance here today um come true for us and we're excited about it so um i do
+[3401.20 --> 3405.52]  want to mention before we tail off we got a couple sponsors that make the show possible code ship top
+[3405.52 --> 3410.96]  top towel and rack space um some really great uh sponsors we have on the show so we very much
+[3410.96 --> 3415.92]  appreciate their support um and and with that unless there's anything else let's uh let's all say goodbye
+[3416.48 --> 3421.84]  so goodbye from me goodbye goodbye from rich uh thanks for the opportunity to be on the show
+[3421.84 --> 3426.96]  no problem guys thanks for having us yeah thanks guys this is varoon uh it was exciting to talk to
+[3426.96 --> 3429.04]  you guys thanks for having us thank you
+[3429.04 --> 3438.48]  this is
+[3441.12 --> 3454.96]  you
+[3459.04 --> 3489.02]  Thank you.

Rails Girls Summer of Code and Travis Foundation_transcript.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,669 @@
+[0.00 --> 15.08]  welcome back everyone this is the changelog where a member supported blog podcast and weekly email
+[15.08 --> 20.06]  coming with fresh and what's new in open source check out the blog at the changelog.com
+[20.06 --> 28.28]  our past shows at five by five dot tv slash changelog and you're listening to episode 122
+[28.28 --> 34.02]  jared and i talked to anika lintour and flor dres about rails grills summer of code and travis
+[34.02 --> 40.98]  foundation today's show is sponsored by ninefold code ship and top tau we'll tell you a bit more
+[40.98 --> 46.78]  about code ship and top tau later in the show but our friends at ninefold they're doing some awesome
+[46.78 --> 52.94]  stuff they're they're a high performance platform for deploying and hosting ruby on rails applications
+[52.94 --> 57.92]  the their platform is built on their own infrastructure with servers in the u.s and asia
+[57.92 --> 64.02]  pacific and because they own their entire stack from hardware up they provide you with quantifiably
+[64.02 --> 70.98]  superior performance compared to the competition with more economical scaling they make it extremely
+[70.98 --> 76.76]  easy to deploy rails applications straight from a get repo by either using the online wizard or the
+[76.76 --> 85.80]  infamous cli command line interface they also offer great support zero downtime deployment ssl redis memcache
+[85.80 --> 93.68]  load balancers and firewalls for free straight out of the box experience ninefold superior performance
+[93.68 --> 101.38]  and easy deployment with a 30-day free trial just visit ninefold.com slash the changelog to sign up
+[101.38 --> 112.40]  and now on to the show we're joined today by annika linter and flor drees they are some awesome women in
+[112.40 --> 118.90]  tech doing some cool stuff ruby um rails girl summer code travis foundation and a ton of other cool stuff
+[118.90 --> 124.62]  but i'll let them do their introductions for themselves annika why don't you uh why don't you go
+[124.62 --> 129.98]  first give the listeners an idea about who you are and kind of what you're what you're doing these days
+[129.98 --> 137.60]  hi i'm annika and um i live in berlin and i studied something totally different i studied
+[137.60 --> 145.16]  linguistic and gender studies and um i started whereas girls berlin out of interest and because
+[145.16 --> 152.94]  i fell in love with programming at a workshop and from there it was just a um a tiny step to where i'm
+[152.94 --> 159.70]  now and now i'm working at travis ci and i'm running the travis foundation and with this i'm
+[159.70 --> 167.04]  organizing where it goes more of code uh the second time now yes travis ci is also i don't know if
+[167.04 --> 173.56]  you know this uh annika but travis ci is a partner of the changelog so for those who are members you
+[173.56 --> 181.32]  can go to the changelog.com slash benefits and redeem your awesome long story short so um flor how about
+[181.32 --> 186.76]  yourself i know you're a long-time listener first-time caller um so to speak for the changelog so
+[186.76 --> 192.44]  who are you and and what are you up to yeah i think we tweet about every week right uh whenever
+[192.44 --> 198.64]  i'm listening to the to the podcast again um so for me this is very exciting um so yeah hi uh my name
+[198.64 --> 204.84]  is flor i live in berlin right now um but at this very moment i'm in vienna i used to live here for
+[204.84 --> 211.46]  three years um i started programming about two years ago um going through the real scrolls guides by
+[211.46 --> 217.24]  myself and uh and with my co-workers and that got me so excited that i wanted to get involved in the
+[217.24 --> 222.34]  whole real scrolls community so i've organized about three of them in back in the netherlands i am from
+[222.34 --> 229.04]  the netherlands um i'm organizing one in austria next month and one in azerbaijan of all places
+[229.04 --> 237.90]  in october um yeah and last year a little bit late on i got um involved in real scrolls summer of code
+[237.90 --> 243.38]  and that was such a great experience that i wanted to join as the as a part of the organizing team
+[243.38 --> 250.42]  again this year and it's been a blast so far you mentioned tweets and excitement and i gotta
+[250.42 --> 254.88]  give a shout out to the tweet you did just before the show today and we'll link to it in the show notes
+[254.88 --> 260.30]  um if you go to the tweet and it's not moving go to click the actual link where it says go to
+[260.30 --> 265.28]  imager because it's an animated gif that was just rocking so i love that gif by the way
+[265.28 --> 271.34]  cool i'm glad you do um yeah you know anika from from your perspective though
+[271.34 --> 276.00]  you'd mentioned that you went to school for linguistics and gender studies and i guess
+[276.00 --> 282.68]  to some degree it's it's really shaping where you're at now with rails girls summer of code and
+[282.68 --> 288.24]  and what you're doing with uh travis foundation and just in general i know that uh there's a lot
+[288.24 --> 294.56]  of conversation around diversity and inclusivity and uh it's a big hot topic right now in tech and
+[294.56 --> 300.96]  to some it's uh it's very real uh in terms of their life but can you give us an idea of maybe
+[300.96 --> 308.96]  where i guess where the where the idea of rails girls summer code came from i know it's a campaign
+[308.96 --> 312.66]  can you can you give us some of the backstory of what started this there was a blog post there was
+[312.66 --> 322.74]  a dream give us the backstory um funnily enough i wasn't there when it started but i uh but i can
+[322.74 --> 331.08]  can tell the story pretty uh good by now i guess so um this started with a meeting for um where
+[331.08 --> 338.00]  organizers from rails girls berlin and coaches met and here in berlin we were one of the the first
+[338.00 --> 343.72]  group actually that after a beginners workshop from rails girls that we said okay we wanted to
+[343.72 --> 351.62]  continue coding together and to continue learning together so we organized follow-up workshops and we
+[351.62 --> 358.00]  started these study groups and we encouraged everyone to start their own study group just
+[358.00 --> 366.22]  grab a coach and meet up every week or every second week and and keep on learning and swan fuchs
+[366.22 --> 373.04]  is one of the most active coaches and one of the most active community members here and he
+[373.04 --> 381.28]  started a study group i think two years ago and this is one of the best study groups and most
+[381.28 --> 387.76]  awesome study groups i've ever seen it's called ruby monsters and um yeah and they were just learning
+[387.76 --> 393.90]  and and i think they were just um missing a goal where to learn two words to there was
+[393.90 --> 401.78]  yeah of course you can learn a lot about ruby i guess or like build your own um website and stuff but
+[401.78 --> 409.56]  uh so they met and um and wanted to see what what what what can we build for women to get even deeper
+[409.56 --> 415.54]  into code and and their the idea of a rails girl summer of code was born and this is a little bit
+[415.54 --> 422.48]  different than ruby and google summer of code as i understand it because it focuses on learning by
+[422.48 --> 429.56]  doing so have that's the best way to learn right yes yes it's it's actually it's awesome and i of course i
+[429.56 --> 435.52]  haven't done any other summer of code or even this one as a participant but as an organizer the
+[435.52 --> 442.26]  idea is so great to have like have you work on a project and then actually get you deeper into code
+[442.26 --> 448.36]  with uh while working on that project and while you work on that project and you contribute to open
+[448.36 --> 454.88]  source you are in these three months um you are a full-time programmer and you can actually see if
+[454.88 --> 462.30]  that's something you would want to get into so we we give women the opportunity to kind of see um
+[462.30 --> 469.72]  how this works and if they actually would want to work as a programmer and um to give them a chance to
+[469.72 --> 475.72]  contribute to open source full-time so yeah that was the idea behind red custom of code and then i guess
+[475.72 --> 482.92]  it was such a great idea that they started to work on this right now and and when swan fux he gave a
+[482.92 --> 487.46]  lightning talk at a beginners workshop and then a whole organizing team formed around him
+[487.46 --> 494.20]  and they just got started and i think the whole um the whole idea was born in april or something
+[494.20 --> 502.86]  and then they started the crowdfunding campaign last year and within two weeks i guess they had
+[502.86 --> 509.56]  eighty thousand dollars and they could support uh ten teams to come on board for it's custom of code and
+[509.56 --> 516.22]  this this whole process wasn't longer than two to three months i guess so this was kind of like
+[516.22 --> 524.82]  yes like like a crazy idea crazy dream i was like okay let's just build it and that's that's the
+[524.82 --> 530.52]  amazing story that's the kind of fairy tale kind of thing i like from that story and i actually joined
+[530.52 --> 537.68]  in june uh when privacy i took me on board and and i i got on board as a community manager and
+[537.68 --> 544.40]  to organize or help organize for a customer of code with them so that was when i came
+[544.40 --> 550.00]  you touched on one one detail i think is kind of important for the listeners and i think it's important
+[550.00 --> 557.40]  for a couple reasons one is to show uh your perspective um you come to this and you're an
+[557.40 --> 564.70]  organizer of all of this as a non-developer um but you said you you know earlier in your intro that
+[564.70 --> 569.32]  you fell you fell in love with programming can you talk a little bit about what it is like um
+[569.32 --> 575.66]  organizing and operating in the world where you're not you're not as fluent with some of the lingo or
+[575.66 --> 580.82]  even the language itself um you know can you speak as a non-developer in the position you're in
+[580.82 --> 583.92]  it's a lot of smiling and nodding
+[583.92 --> 591.84]  yes i understand what you mean so um fake it till you make it though right yes i think that's true
+[591.84 --> 598.16]  and and you figure out that all the all the people around you don't know so much that you would think
+[598.16 --> 603.60]  they know they they have to google themselves and i'm always like that's my day-to-day right there
+[603.60 --> 609.04]  honestly so that's like come on as when i have this problem or constantine or whatever and and and
+[609.04 --> 615.28]  and it says this and i i expect them to to apparently know and to just know by this minute
+[615.28 --> 620.24]  how they can help me or how they can solve this and they're like yeah i really don't know so
+[620.24 --> 627.08]  they're like the docs can you go to the docs please yes we all read the documents uh every day
+[627.08 --> 634.08]  yeah totally so um yeah but that that's actually what struck me the most is like okay everybody's
+[634.08 --> 638.96]  kind of no it's not fake it until you make it but it's like investigate until you're like exactly
+[638.96 --> 644.24]  yeah learn what it is and and that's actually what i really love about programming is that you
+[644.24 --> 649.12]  uh you see something and that you don't understand and then you work on it until you
+[649.12 --> 655.68]  get it fixed and then there's such a rush of excitement um for me every time that i got something right
+[655.68 --> 661.76]  so um it's a constant journey right it's it's it never changes that's what i love also about
+[662.40 --> 667.84]  um i guess programming is one side of it but just like building for the web building software period
+[667.84 --> 675.28]  whether it's design or development ux uh ui all all the pieces of building software to me is pretty
+[675.28 --> 680.96]  well because you never stop learning and jared you can probably even jump in here on this because you
+[680.96 --> 687.20]  teach um right now a rails class at interface there in omaha nebraska so that's kind of neat because you
+[687.20 --> 691.28]  probably knew a lot when you went in but you know a lot more now because you got to teach it right
+[691.28 --> 696.48]  yeah and actually one of the the things that i tell the students kind of day one is that uh you
+[696.48 --> 701.12]  know one of the secrets of of software development and building for the web is that there aren't any
+[701.12 --> 706.96]  know-it-alls like they're even the experts aren't expert because there's a constantly changing
+[706.96 --> 713.68]  environment and there's tons of nuance um evolving best practices so a lot of the intimidation is just
+[713.68 --> 718.48]  thinking everybody else knows way more and of course when you when you just get started they do know way
+[718.48 --> 724.72]  more but you see somebody who's a so-called expert and who can build for the web um and they're looking
+[724.72 --> 729.92]  at the docs and they're googling answers and they can't remember the you know the exact syntax of the
+[729.92 --> 737.12]  api and that's kind of an empowering thought um seeing somebody who is um been in the business still
+[737.12 --> 741.60]  having to do things that you're having to do as a beginner and we're all we all kind of live there
+[742.24 --> 748.32]  yeah flor what's your perspective on i guess you'd mentioned that you're about two years
+[748.32 --> 753.60]  into being a developer is that right yeah that's about right yeah so what is your have you gone
+[753.60 --> 758.72]  through were you were you one of the participants of the first uh rails girls summer code or what is
+[759.52 --> 765.20]  you know what's your angle to to this um no actually i wasn't a participant i was helping out um
+[765.20 --> 770.32]  annika mainly with some pr and communication stuff um i think one of the reasons that i could actually do
+[770.32 --> 774.80]  that is when i started learning programming i thought it was very important to listen to
+[774.80 --> 781.68]  you know all kinds of podcasts like yours or um like like the like ruby rogues for instance
+[782.32 --> 788.24]  and while listening to such podcasts i would pause every every time that i didn't understand what they
+[788.24 --> 793.44]  were talking about or i didn't understand the term um and i would look it up and get familiar with this
+[793.44 --> 798.64]  term and i noticed that after a few months you know i have to pause a lot less than i used to do before
+[798.64 --> 804.80]  because you just learn along the way um i've done some some talks on learning programming and how you
+[804.80 --> 810.32]  can teach programming in a better better way um and this is definitely one of them have them listen to
+[810.32 --> 817.04]  as much as they can get their hands on possibly and and have them figure out you know that it's partly
+[817.04 --> 824.80]  talk to talk but it's but with while talking the talk you learn a lot yeah i feel like the sooner you
+[824.80 --> 828.72]  can just kind of jump in and get your hands dirty so to speak and i think that's what the beauty might be
+[829.44 --> 835.20]  for uh the summer of code is that and maybe you can correct me if i'm wrong but it seemed like it
+[835.20 --> 842.72]  it seems like it's pretty focused on um obviously women but um open to to everyone not just not just
+[842.72 --> 848.72]  women but you know as you said before annika it's the the lens is focused on women but open to all but
+[848.72 --> 854.80]  um mostly on those that are coming in fresh coming in new probably even coming with some inhibitions
+[854.80 --> 861.52]  about you know can i do it is it possible you know all these other intimidations i think you know
+[861.52 --> 867.68]  the deep unknown kind of gives us but um would you say that rails girls summer code is mainly focused at
+[868.56 --> 875.52]  beginners or intermediate what what level are you really is is the aim um well as a beginner it's
+[875.52 --> 881.84]  probably a little bit too hard uh to actually contribute to an existing open source project
+[881.84 --> 889.36]  or or to actually kick off your own so we recommend that you've been learning around like six months at
+[889.36 --> 896.48]  least programming so like um for example if you have joined the right first beginner workshop and then
+[896.48 --> 904.32]  just like started your study group and met um every week or whatever and and just kept on learning
+[904.32 --> 910.72]  because that's that's a little bit that's like the important thing that you never let go and that
+[910.72 --> 916.32]  you are a little bit familiar with the structures of whatever language you want to program in let's
+[916.32 --> 924.48]  say it's probably ruby so that you are familiar with um with the basic things and maybe already know how
+[924.48 --> 931.76]  to use git and stuff so yeah so that's probably the the basic uh level we're looking at of course
+[931.76 --> 940.56]  uh we we're happy to make exceptions if there are some other criteria that are met and yeah then it
+[940.56 --> 948.96]  goes up for the level i think we have this year some computer science students um who have been studying
+[948.96 --> 956.88]  computer science for some time but haven't been able to get into open source or um yeah it actually means
+[956.88 --> 963.28]  different things like studying computer science doesn't mean you're actually programming because
+[963.28 --> 970.48]  it looks so different um from from i don't know country to country or even from city to city to university
+[970.96 --> 977.44]  what you're actually learning in your university and for uh one story i like i like very much is
+[977.44 --> 984.08]  about that woman who said yeah okay i study computer science but um only since rails girls i really have
+[984.08 --> 992.48]  fun at it and i understand it and i am i dare to ask questions and um yeah so um we have a lot of
+[992.48 --> 999.68]  levels uh that that people can jump in and raise course of course but yeah probably a total beginner will have
+[999.68 --> 1007.84]  probably a hard time doing three months full-time coding so some some uh i guess community involvement
+[1007.84 --> 1014.72]  either watching doing uh observing something will definitely help let's let's maybe um
+[1016.16 --> 1021.76]  i want to mention this too just for those who maybe come into this conversation uh maybe behind the
+[1021.76 --> 1029.68]  curve a little bit so you've got rails girls which is a a meet and and i'm just uh going based on the
+[1029.68 --> 1036.56]  the details here on the page but it's it's uh worldwide meetups in in your local cities that are
+[1036.56 --> 1045.12]  focused on helping women learn ruby on rails um educational meetups events all all that but
+[1045.12 --> 1051.20]  on top of that you have rails girl summer co which is this summertime thing that essentially i think
+[1051.20 --> 1054.96]  last year it might have been a little different but this year you've got 20 students coming in
+[1054.96 --> 1061.44]  totally focusing on open source and essentially spending three months living and breathing ruby on
+[1061.44 --> 1065.52]  rails in open source is that about sum up what summer code is all about
+[1065.52 --> 1076.88]  um i think it's not um if somebody wants to uh program in in java or uh php that that that depends on
+[1076.88 --> 1083.44]  the project um but uh i'm not sure i think this year we'll probably have a lot of ruby on rails
+[1083.92 --> 1089.76]  projects as well but yeah that's uh that's pretty much what vice customer of code is about so just from
+[1089.76 --> 1094.16]  the name i assumed it would be like people trying to contribute back to the you know ruby on rails
+[1094.16 --> 1098.40]  framework but it sounds like it's just any open source that you want to that you want to do you
+[1098.40 --> 1104.48]  pitch it uh do you have to have a specific goal in mind how do you actually do the whole three-month
+[1104.48 --> 1114.96]  process um as a student yeah as a student okay uh well you have to apply and and we have some we ask a lot of
+[1114.96 --> 1123.44]  mentors or people who have open source projects okay um to um to collect these ideas and proposals in a
+[1123.44 --> 1131.92]  in a repository and so to give the students an idea of what they can contribute to and a lot of students
+[1131.92 --> 1138.16]  have um own ideas of what they want to build and of course it depends on their on their skill level if
+[1138.16 --> 1144.00]  they uh if they can if they're able to do this and if they have the support of coaches and mentors
+[1144.00 --> 1150.48]  to actually pull this off but um yeah so one story would be you look at the repository then you find
+[1150.48 --> 1157.28]  oh wow bundler sounds nice i want to contribute to that and then you get in touch with a with a mentor
+[1157.28 --> 1162.48]  who proposed this and he will help you or she will help you very good annika
+[1162.48 --> 1168.24]  figure out a project floor keeping it straight
+[1171.52 --> 1178.32]  yeah you learn something while talking about it so um yes so you would actually then um
+[1179.28 --> 1185.44]  work out the project plan what your goals would be um in these three months and since you have to apply
+[1186.08 --> 1190.72]  two months before the program starts or even two and a half months for some project that means that
+[1190.72 --> 1197.12]  they actually changed a lot for some newer projects or something so sometimes you can't predict anything
+[1197.12 --> 1202.72]  but uh to give just a structure on on what your plans would be and what your goals and it's really
+[1202.72 --> 1208.24]  essential that you work together with a mentor who's actually running this project because um they know
+[1208.24 --> 1216.32]  this uh and can actually see what is needed what would be a contribution to the community what would be the
+[1216.32 --> 1223.44]  best thing to work on so rails girls is a global movement but it's all local workshops and meetups
+[1223.44 --> 1230.16]  um is rails girls summer of code completely online or is there a locality to it to fly off to a far
+[1230.16 --> 1237.28]  away location and code or are you just involved online that'd be cool um that would be really cool i just had
+[1237.28 --> 1246.08]  the image of iceland in my yeah no um it's international uh so anybody can apply actually
+[1246.08 --> 1252.00]  uh a lot of organizers are berlin located so that was where the confusion last year came from if it
+[1252.00 --> 1258.08]  was a berlin program or whatever but we had students and teams from all over the world last year and this
+[1258.08 --> 1266.64]  year so we're just asking that you that you find local support wherever you are as much as you can because
+[1266.64 --> 1276.48]  um like being a newcomer to open source and working remotely with uh with coaches or pairs might be a
+[1276.48 --> 1283.44]  harsh situation so uh we found it's it's best if you have a strong local support like with the
+[1283.44 --> 1288.64]  companies for example like we have this year we have companies that said yeah sure you can work here and
+[1288.64 --> 1295.36]  we actually have some coaches you can ping all the time and and that's nice and that's that's super cool and
+[1295.36 --> 1302.48]  that uh that worked last year really well with soundcloud and this year we have uh for example six wonder
+[1302.48 --> 1309.84]  kinder six wonder can i don't know how to say it in english the people that make wonderlist
+[1311.20 --> 1320.40]  exactly thank you uh for example or rebased in in poland or um yeah some other amazing companies
+[1320.40 --> 1328.32]  that help the students um have a local structure i think last year i'm sorry go ahead go ahead
+[1328.32 --> 1332.72]  floor i think last year and and this year we had the same sort of confusion that there were some people
+[1332.72 --> 1338.32]  from australia that would love to join but we're confused by the name because for them it's not summer
+[1339.68 --> 1345.44]  yes oh and it's it's not only australia right there's some other continent where they said yeah it's
+[1345.44 --> 1350.40]  pretty cold right here i don't think i'll ask i ever get summer just uh speaking for a u.s state
+[1350.40 --> 1355.20]  that's not actually in the continental u.s right i don't think it's ever summer there and when it is
+[1355.20 --> 1362.48]  it's still winter so there you go let's pause the show for just a minute give a shout out to our
+[1362.48 --> 1368.96]  sponsors code ship code ship is a hosted continuous deployment service that just works you can easily
+[1368.96 --> 1374.24]  set up continuous integration for your app in just a few minutes and automatically deploy when all your
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+[1380.72 --> 1386.08]  services and they easily integrate with github bitbucket and can deploy to cloud services like
+[1386.08 --> 1392.56]  roku aws nojitsu google app engine or even your own servers you can get started today with their free
+[1392.56 --> 1399.28]  plan it takes just three minutes head to code ship.io and one more thing to mention for our members
+[1399.28 --> 1407.60]  our awesome members by the way you can save between 284 and 2994 on your first year with code ship so
+[1408.00 --> 1414.08]  make sure you take advantage of that head to the changelog.com benefits to learn more and redeem
+[1414.08 --> 1419.44]  that benefit if you're not a member don't worry it's just 20 bucks a year and you can support us to
+[1419.44 --> 1425.76]  support open source and we certainly appreciate that for sure once again go to code ship.io
+[1427.92 --> 1435.60]  um i i am noticing though a short while back i'm still kind of keeping up with some recent events but
+[1435.60 --> 1442.24]  just a few days ago you you mentioned on the rails girl summer code blog that there you're announced the
+[1442.24 --> 1450.24]  the the first seven teams uh you mentioned projects like diaspora padrino and several other
+[1450.24 --> 1456.64]  kind of neat uh ruby rails based projects uh several coaches that are prominent and open source and have
+[1456.64 --> 1462.08]  kind of been there and kind of help pave the way um kerry miller's a name i'm seeing just quickly in the
+[1462.08 --> 1470.64]  list uh eric michaels ober previous uh on the on the changelog um and a couple others but i try to link
+[1470.64 --> 1476.40]  over to the apply page just kind of just to kind of get an example of what you were asking about
+[1476.88 --> 1482.88]  and i think just to maybe separate some of the confusion it sounds like it's a team um so you
+[1482.88 --> 1488.08]  kind of have to do some self-organizing prior to applying and maybe a little bit of research on which
+[1488.08 --> 1493.60]  project and also making a note for listeners if you're going to the link uh applications are closed
+[1493.60 --> 1498.88]  right now so it seems like um we're a little too close to the the finish line to talk about applying
+[1498.88 --> 1504.64]  this year but next year obviously hopefully things come back but what are the i guess all that to say
+[1504.64 --> 1510.24]  well you know what are the the details around um making up your team applying what are some of the
+[1510.24 --> 1515.60]  questions that were asked when applying that you kind of look at as criteria was the project selected
+[1515.60 --> 1521.04]  was it the people you know what was it that got you you know that made you a team and got you through
+[1521.04 --> 1529.92]  the application process oh that is super different category but i think the basic one is that um you
+[1529.92 --> 1538.16]  have to have a pair so we figured that um the two is the best number on this so you can actually pair
+[1538.16 --> 1549.36]  program and keep each other motivated um and um yeah you have to have a pair and and and and a coach
+[1549.36 --> 1558.16]  that actually or who can actually help you um some hours a day um in the beginning and and in the end
+[1558.16 --> 1565.28]  that depends sure you will get a lot more done by yourself but that's pretty important that you have
+[1566.48 --> 1573.20]  one or more coaches i think one team had six or something that actually depends on if you're at the
+[1573.20 --> 1582.08]  at a company that said yeah sure you have you can have all coaches 24 7 um yeah but the what was
+[1582.08 --> 1586.80]  your question the questions i'm thinking of like i'm thinking like the application process and now
+[1587.44 --> 1593.52]  just hearing some of those details you mentioned now i'm thinking about you know it's three months long
+[1594.08 --> 1599.76]  um you know jerry's question asked about whether it was local or kind of worldwide which is worldwide and
+[1599.76 --> 1605.84]  there's no real location for it so and even some of it will take place you know just you know primarily
+[1605.84 --> 1612.16]  online for a lot of people uh getting involved so now i'm thinking of like what happens when i'm like
+[1612.16 --> 1617.20]  lost i'm in the woods you know what kind of support structures do you have in place uh you know maybe
+[1617.20 --> 1623.36]  what did you learn from last year that's changed for this year to to make um completion and making
+[1623.36 --> 1629.60]  being part of a team easier and just not getting lost do you want me to answer that one yeah yes
+[1630.48 --> 1637.20]  i thought so um so like first of all they all have a mentor for their project right and then there is
+[1637.20 --> 1644.64]  one or more coaches that will help them out that were already predefined um and then so last year we had
+[1644.64 --> 1651.84]  a remote help desk um in irc where everyone could just log in and help people out if they wanted to do
+[1651.84 --> 1657.04]  yeah that's that's pretty neat uh this year we'll go with campfire to make it a little bit easier for
+[1657.04 --> 1662.64]  the students because we noticed last year at irc it has a quite steep learning curve apparently for
+[1662.64 --> 1668.80]  for people just starting out um and we'll be partnering up with a few companies that i cannot
+[1668.80 --> 1677.28]  name yet but we will really quickly uh that will um that will help us amend the help desk um for for a
+[1677.28 --> 1682.72]  longer period of time because we you know there's the different time zones and sometimes there were
+[1682.72 --> 1688.32]  no not enough people online to help help students out when they had a problem so we'll try and have
+[1688.88 --> 1693.92]  have three coaches in there at all times so that you know people are actually you they can actually go
+[1693.92 --> 1699.36]  there with all of their questions i think that's very important and we're determined to make this
+[1699.36 --> 1709.20]  better this year yeah and um if you're lost not in a programming kind of way or learning way um but
+[1709.20 --> 1718.88]  have problems with your i don't know family or teammate or get bullied from a coach or a member any problem
+[1718.88 --> 1725.84]  you might have we have i'm i'm really glad i'm really happy that we are um having this year we have a trust
+[1725.84 --> 1733.76]  committee and that's actually consists of members that are um involved in the organization i think
+[1733.76 --> 1740.48]  it's ven and me that you can turn to with all your problems and we have i think three or four four
+[1740.48 --> 1746.96]  external people four yes um that are not involved in the organization so that they can stay impartial
+[1746.96 --> 1753.60]  and then can mediate between the students or the coaches or whoever turns to them with their problems
+[1753.60 --> 1760.08]  and and the organization so they can help you figure out any kind of problems you might have and um
+[1760.96 --> 1768.56]  yeah so that we can make sure everybody feels comfortable and not i don't know we want to
+[1769.52 --> 1776.08]  we want to have a safe space and we'll work uh towards that and i think with the trust committee that's a big
+[1776.08 --> 1784.32]  step to make or to help people feel as comfortable as they might feel in such a program yeah i guess
+[1784.32 --> 1788.08]  you're right because i mean you can get lost on a couple different levels one you can lose just
+[1788.08 --> 1796.16]  motivation maybe you're in the fringes either self-inflicted or you know you mentioned the trust
+[1796.16 --> 1801.76]  part of it where you might be getting bullied or um you know harassed who knows what what could
+[1801.76 --> 1807.04]  potentially happen but then you could also be on a learning curve a little lost and needing some of
+[1807.04 --> 1812.32]  the guidance and obviously having a strong team with strong leaders is going to be you know helpful
+[1812.32 --> 1817.28]  helpful to that so that's that's neat to have that in place especially the real-time communication too
+[1817.28 --> 1822.56]  around like campfire or rc last year because i was just thinking like man when you get in the middle
+[1822.56 --> 1831.28]  of this i know how i feel sometimes with projects um i tend to be an island um just self-induced
+[1831.28 --> 1838.24]  anyways and so when i get lost the only person i really have to to cling to is jared and andrew
+[1838.24 --> 1844.40]  obviously but um you know a little closer to the heart is my wife so you know i've kind of got my own
+[1844.40 --> 1849.84]  personal support structure that i kind of leverage and and cling to so i just wondered what um
+[1849.84 --> 1856.64]  y'all are doing for for this during that during that that three months but um another topic i think
+[1856.64 --> 1864.32]  is important to to talk about is um i guess the crowdfunding was did y'all do crowdfunding last
+[1864.32 --> 1872.32]  year too or is this a new thing this year and can you kind of speak to um you know having not only
+[1872.32 --> 1878.56]  corporate sponsors but um i guess those who contribute and those who are part of the community giving
+[1878.56 --> 1885.36]  their own personal dollars to support the cause and essentially um fundraise to to pay for
+[1886.88 --> 1890.24]  um i guess what do you what do you call that what's the what's the word for that
+[1890.88 --> 1895.12]  the scholarships yeah i was looking the word gap me for a second but scholarships so i mean you got 19
+[1895.12 --> 1899.20]  scholarships eighty thousand dollars raised right now what's what's the background here on this
+[1900.24 --> 1905.84]  yeah so last year it was a crowdfunding campaign as well so um yeah this was always uh
+[1905.84 --> 1912.56]  achieved by the um achieved by the community and we have of course some strong leaders uh as companies
+[1912.56 --> 1921.92]  who are giving a lot of money uh like github or google open source or um yeah floor was very heavily
+[1921.92 --> 1929.52]  involved uh with this this year so you probably can name some other wonderful companies but uh also of
+[1929.52 --> 1935.60]  course individual donors and this year we even have like an app where you can notch your
+[1935.60 --> 1941.76]  not your family and friends to give more money which is pretty awesome but yeah maybe flo you can
+[1942.32 --> 1950.16]  tell a bit about that yeah i think what's very exciting is the crowdfunding uh part about it if i speak for
+[1950.16 --> 1957.44]  myself for instance so um i i gave of course i gave some money and i gave some money as well last year
+[1957.44 --> 1963.12]  and for me my motivation is really that when i just entered the ruby world everyone was so
+[1963.76 --> 1971.12]  so nice and so welcoming and everyone wanted to help me um and i found the rails girls guide so helpful
+[1971.12 --> 1977.12]  and uh and the event so helpful that i just really wanted to give back and what we hear from a lot of
+[1977.12 --> 1982.56]  people backing this project is that they similarly also want to give back to the community
+[1982.56 --> 1991.68]  um i think that's what drives the the crowdfunding campaign so well so and go ahead yeah and the
+[1991.68 --> 1997.12]  connection like last year since then folks was so heavily involved here like all the people that
+[1997.12 --> 2001.92]  loved travisci and and the work that they did and the the involvement they had in the community
+[2001.92 --> 2011.92]  actually um he nudged them all i guess like pulling all nighters and um and got a lot a lot of awesome
+[2011.92 --> 2017.44]  feedback and that's how it worked last year and this year we have a lot of people that are of course
+[2017.44 --> 2022.32]  saying oh yeah i did it last year i want to do it this year again because this is such a great cause
+[2022.32 --> 2027.76]  and this is where i'm always so in awe and think wow this is such a great community
+[2027.76 --> 2034.48]  so i was going to ask it looks like just tons of support looking just at the sponsorship page
+[2034.48 --> 2039.84]  and how much money has been able to raise is really awesome how much does it cost to send a team through
+[2039.84 --> 2045.44]  or a student um what does the each student get for the three months and then i'm curious follow-up
+[2045.44 --> 2049.36]  question curious if cost of living and those kind of things are factored into that at all
+[2049.36 --> 2061.28]  that's a really good question so we uh calculate uh five thousand us dollars per student okay and
+[2061.28 --> 2070.80]  that's with some buffer um for the um the courses the dollar might uh have or the euro or wherever you
+[2070.80 --> 2078.48]  are that you're getting the money so um that's important and um yeah and we actually are asking the
+[2078.48 --> 2085.60]  students to calculate the cost themselves and and we ask them what they can live off we say okay we
+[2085.60 --> 2094.08]  we we can pay you 1.5 thousand us dollars a month not thousand you can live off oh yeah you're right
+[2094.08 --> 2102.72]  sorry um mathematics she was right i got our calculators out yeah i'm getting my calculator out right now
+[2102.72 --> 2112.80]  okay no okay no and uh yeah and so we we say okay 1.5 is yours if you want it but if you but we didn't
+[2112.80 --> 2119.60]  do any calculation for any kind of uh country or living costs because i think that depends
+[2120.24 --> 2125.84]  hugely on what your private or like your situation looks if you're a single mom or if you're like
+[2125.84 --> 2132.32]  heavily supported by a family that can actually differ a lot so we ask students themselves to tell us how
+[2132.32 --> 2139.36]  much money they need and then we um we can this is new this year so we can actually if they say okay
+[2139.36 --> 2145.28]  here you can have 100 or 200 euros back we can um give that back to the race goes on of code
+[2145.92 --> 2151.60]  crowdfunding campaign and maybe be able to fund another team spot because we are now short of two
+[2151.60 --> 2159.52]  team spots and we can use any money so yeah so you're trying to get together as a 20 it's 20 students and
+[2159.52 --> 2166.32]  that would be 10 teams and you're sitting on eight right yes you have eight you're looking for
+[2166.32 --> 2171.52]  funding for two more um so everybody donate sponsorship is it just donate just go to the
+[2171.52 --> 2177.28]  website right is there any harder than that no maybe maybe you should repeat it it's just that easy give us
+[2177.28 --> 2181.60]  money sure what's the website again
+[2183.36 --> 2189.44]  real customer of code.org slash campaign yes if you want to or you can go to
+[2189.44 --> 2192.56]  real customer of code.org and click on the donate now but
+[2195.12 --> 2200.88]  80 000 total has been raised so far as jared kind of recapping what jared said you got eight teams
+[2200.88 --> 2206.64]  funded currently you got two more teams waiting to get fully funded that's i'm guessing you know
+[2206.64 --> 2213.84]  ten thousand dollars more for going on the average of five thousand um um five thousand per team so i
+[2213.84 --> 2222.56]  mean this is a success was it so you mentioned last year was um you also crowdfunded last year as well
+[2222.56 --> 2229.36]  did did you have a similar outcome or was it less or better was it how does it fare i guess in comparison
+[2229.36 --> 2240.56]  last year last year was faster i think last year was faster yes but was it less or more money
+[2241.84 --> 2248.56]  yeah it was just faster that the companies uh jumped on board i think maybe this year the companies i
+[2248.56 --> 2253.52]  don't know have some kind of for some companies we came too late they said okay they had to like
+[2253.52 --> 2258.96]  calculate their budget uh already and stuff i don't know how this worked last year maybe there was
+[2258.96 --> 2268.72]  smaller and didn't do the calculation uh part but uh um yeah i don't know but we have some
+[2268.72 --> 2274.88]  companies lining up i guess that we're still waiting to hear from and um these are the infamous
+[2274.88 --> 2281.12]  ones that uh forehead just mentioned that you can't mention but can kind of mention uh no i think
+[2281.12 --> 2287.04]  she was thinking about the companies that are involved with with helping us support okay sorry
+[2287.04 --> 2291.12]  not that i can like hint that they're already a sponsor so
+[2292.64 --> 2298.64]  oh that doesn't come on a teaser campaign
+[2302.00 --> 2305.92]  let's pause the show for just a minute give a shout out to our sponsor top towel uh you've
+[2305.92 --> 2309.92]  probably heard me mention top towel several times over the last couple months if you've been a long
+[2309.92 --> 2314.56]  time listener of the show but we've been working with top towel for quite a while now and we thought it
+[2314.56 --> 2319.44]  would make some sense to circle back and talk to some of the listeners who've applied to top towel
+[2319.44 --> 2324.72]  and have actually been accepted because only two to three percent of the engineers who apply
+[2324.72 --> 2332.48]  make it past their strict elite engineer process and one of them is a awesome fan an awesome listener
+[2332.48 --> 2338.40]  daniel lauzon he is in ottawa canada a long time fan a long time listen to the changelog and he's
+[2338.40 --> 2344.72]  now living the dream as an elite engineer at top town i say living the dream because he's now able to
+[2344.72 --> 2351.44]  have 100 control of the types of projects and the technologies he's working on even as well as the
+[2351.44 --> 2357.28]  rate he wants to charge daniel earns 100 of his income as a top towel engineer and he wanted me to
+[2357.28 --> 2363.60]  pass on his seal of approval so to speak of the top towel experience and for those of you out there
+[2363.60 --> 2370.48]  who are freelancing right now or you would like to test out freelancing or even try out a kind of a
+[2370.48 --> 2375.92]  no risk freelance like project where you maintain your full-time position you have to check out top
+[2375.92 --> 2382.08]  towel if you think you have what it takes head to top towel.com slash developers to get started and
+[2382.08 --> 2388.32]  tell them the changelog sent you floor you mentioned that you're a long-time listener and ony come i'm sure
+[2388.32 --> 2395.20]  that you're becoming a long-time listener but um do either of you by any chance follow um some of the
+[2395.20 --> 2400.24]  some of the content that um beverly nelson has been putting up on the changelog around learning she's got
+[2400.24 --> 2408.48]  a um a real passion she does a lot of stuff with rails bridge um i think she just ran a course at
+[2408.48 --> 2415.76]  ancient city ruby really really deep uh passion for teaching ruby on rails and she's got such a heart for
+[2415.76 --> 2424.80]  the beginner level i just totally am impressed and in awe of her patience for it but uh have
+[2424.80 --> 2429.36]  either of you caught up with any of her recent posts i think one of the most recent ones that was
+[2429.36 --> 2437.60]  really a good post um was uh regular expressions without fear and she kind of gives this dissection of
+[2438.72 --> 2445.60]  different resources regex for fun and you know some common kind of early problems to solve around
+[2445.60 --> 2449.68]  it but i guess it's kind of a long question to ask you have you caught up with any of the
+[2449.68 --> 2453.52]  the learning content on the channel we try to keep this more regular like once a week so i'm just
+[2453.52 --> 2461.44]  curious yeah everything lands into my reader so i read everything did you tweet about it that's the
+[2461.44 --> 2467.20]  that's the question that's a good question i might have i have actually a call to action for it
+[2467.20 --> 2473.68]  that's not a question i see did you tweet about it i will i guess
+[2476.80 --> 2482.08]  i feel such pressure there is a lot of pressure there's a lot of pressure
+[2483.60 --> 2489.68]  animated gif so now you just have to keep producing gifs of that quality all day every day in it it should
+[2489.68 --> 2496.40]  be okay gosh i've never seen that one either and it's it's uh i was when i saw it i was like that's
+[2496.40 --> 2504.72]  super awesome i love that um i guess i'm not sure if there's um any additional topics that we can kind
+[2504.72 --> 2511.76]  of cover around summer code if there's anything we left out um uh let us know if not i want to talk a
+[2511.76 --> 2518.16]  bit about travis foundation and just in general the the mission around supporting and propping up open
+[2518.16 --> 2522.64]  source obviously that's been our focus here at the changelog for several years now so
+[2523.60 --> 2527.36]  kind of close to our heart but is there anything else we need to cover that we haven't covered on
+[2528.32 --> 2533.04]  summer code that we need to i don't know did you say that everyone can donate now
+[2534.32 --> 2538.08]  everyone can donate we haven't mentioned it everyone can donate
+[2539.44 --> 2544.88]  okay if you're listening to this go to railsgirlssummerofcode.org slash campaign
+[2544.88 --> 2550.80]  uh i think you're suggesting a 75 donation but i think it's you can donate whatever you want
+[2550.80 --> 2558.80]  like 20 bucks you can totally do more do more do awesome do the exact amount um you can totally do
+[2558.80 --> 2565.52]  more if we don't have any hard feelings about that it's no problem whatsoever and if you're uh you know
+[2565.52 --> 2570.16]  if you're a company listening to this you know if you're a developer working in a company that can
+[2570.16 --> 2576.00]  be a sponsor you know take this to either yourself if you're a decision maker or your boss or your
+[2576.00 --> 2580.96]  team leader or whomever and you know get some support there's lots of great support here for
+[2581.92 --> 2588.56]  uh rails go summer code and and i know um the changelog we we gave we gave a little bit of money as well
+[2588.56 --> 2592.16]  because man we love you guys so yay for the changelog yay
+[2592.16 --> 2601.52]  uh so yes if you if you didn't get that go and donate right now please and and now on to
+[2601.52 --> 2607.12]  travis foundation so i know i mentioned earlier that uh i've been working with matias uh for a
+[2607.12 --> 2612.80]  while now travis ci is a part with the changelog that means that they you know they work with us to
+[2612.80 --> 2617.68]  to just make sure that our our member base we have a member base that supports the changelog as well
+[2617.68 --> 2622.16]  and so if you're not a member you can become a member now by going to the changelog.com slash
+[2622.64 --> 2628.56]  membership and it's just 20 bucks a year and with that you support us to support open source in
+[2628.56 --> 2635.44]  addition to that we um we work with uh corporate partners like travis ci to to basically give a a
+[2635.44 --> 2640.64]  nice discount to our paid members um for their services and as part of that i've been working with
+[2640.64 --> 2648.48]  matias for a bit and have wanted to have um y'all on on the show to talk about travis foundation and i
+[2648.48 --> 2654.48]  didn't even know until inviting annika to to come on the show to talk about rails girls summer code that
+[2654.48 --> 2660.16]  she runs travis foundation so that's that's kind of neat but it's an initiative run by travis ci because
+[2660.16 --> 2666.24]  they care about open source but uh you know i think one of your current things you're doing now
+[2666.24 --> 2671.52]  is rails girls summer code but you've got other things in the pipe to work on so kind of give us an
+[2671.52 --> 2677.12]  overview of what travis foundation is and then maybe what some of the mission is yeah i think travis
+[2677.12 --> 2684.80]  foundation is a way for the travis ci team to give something back to the community because they have been
+[2684.80 --> 2693.12]  um been born out of the open source uh community they've they've run a crowdfunding campaign as well
+[2693.12 --> 2700.16]  and were able to build travis ci with this so this is their way of actually saying thank you and and
+[2700.16 --> 2707.12]  contributing back so i think the tagline speaks for for itself it's like making open source
+[2707.12 --> 2717.20]  or even better and um that's like a broad thing or like a super huge goal to have but basically we
+[2717.20 --> 2726.08]  want to support projects that we think are of value to the community and for this we started with open
+[2726.08 --> 2734.56]  source grants where we support people working on awesome open source projects that are with which
+[2734.56 --> 2745.60]  depends or um or grants as we call it like we did uh rvm um and organized uh the the grant uh for them
+[2745.60 --> 2753.60]  which was paid by paymill and now like simultaneously to some of code we are doing coco pots uh we're
+[2753.60 --> 2760.72]  supporting them and and the the company behind this is soundcloud who are paying the grant for uh for
+[2760.72 --> 2768.72]  coco pots and we are like the connector in this so we actually um we're looking at projects or people
+[2768.72 --> 2774.88]  writing us emails and saying hey i have this and that project i'm working on it and i i can't do it
+[2776.56 --> 2781.92]  just in my free time anymore i would i would love to do this full time but i need some money for this
+[2781.92 --> 2789.52]  so we look at the project and then um select the ones that we think are are really cool and and would
+[2789.52 --> 2794.00]  be of great value to the community and then we look for a company that actually fits
+[2794.96 --> 2799.68]  with this project and then we pair them up and organize the whole thing so this is one
+[2800.40 --> 2806.16]  one thing we do with these open source grants then of course the rest got some off code we organized it
+[2806.16 --> 2815.68]  last year and our main organizer this year again and um that actually takes a lot of my time so
+[2815.68 --> 2827.28]  um yeah everything else is um no i i can totally handle everything else and um yeah and and then the
+[2828.16 --> 2837.20]  uh we want to foster diversity and open source as well and for that we are um already um working
+[2837.20 --> 2844.00]  together with some conferences and planning on doing this more like to for example get more women on stage
+[2844.00 --> 2851.12]  or make this more make the conference more family friendly or how to reach out to a more diverse
+[2851.12 --> 2857.60]  audience or something like questions that you mentioned earlier are kind of um getting more and
+[2857.60 --> 2865.04]  more important in the scene and we want to help people work uh work towards that and they can actually
+[2865.04 --> 2871.92]  approach us and and ask us hey i want to do this and that and i don't i don't know how to do this or
+[2871.92 --> 2877.44]  um should we have a code of conard or what is a code of conard or something like this and there are
+[2878.00 --> 2886.08]  already some great resources out there um like actually ashley dryden does a lot of things that i admire
+[2886.08 --> 2893.76]  and she put together some awesome stuff and we have other women putting up tutorials like how to give a talk and stuff or how to
+[2893.76 --> 2904.24]  uh not be anxious to enter right community where you're minority so um yeah that's that's kind of what we
+[2904.24 --> 2913.68]  aim for and we're still of course it's really really young i think uh we launched the foundation end of last year
+[2913.68 --> 2925.04]  um we are open to to other um yeah ideas or projects we should uh we should support or work together with so
+[2925.84 --> 2932.64]  well i think the the grants part is is a unique thing and obviously um a specific approach um with
+[2932.64 --> 2939.12]  diversity in tech i think it's an audacious goal anyways to foster diversity but uh in addition to that you got
+[2939.12 --> 2944.96]  friends of the show rvm michael papis runs that project now wayne segwin was once on the show
+[2945.68 --> 2951.84]  back back in the day um when he had i guess not really first started it but earlier in in the rvm
+[2951.84 --> 2958.56]  history so you mentioned open source grants i guess the question i have around that is um is it seems
+[2958.56 --> 2963.28]  like there's some sort of application process i think you mentioned soundcloud in there somewhere and
+[2963.28 --> 2968.24]  you mentioned a project that they are working on it's open source can you talk about you know maybe
+[2968.24 --> 2976.64]  you know travis foundations um i guess the focus on on obviously giving out grants but you know when
+[2976.64 --> 2982.80]  does it happen is it is it kind of organized how do you go about it is is it just like get in touch and
+[2982.80 --> 2986.72]  let us know your woes and we'll see if we can give you some money what's the how does that work
+[2986.72 --> 2999.36]  yeah i would love to say here's the apply button but uh now there's actually no um application process
+[2999.36 --> 3006.64]  you have to go through or or some criteria you have to met i think we discuss every project as it
+[3006.64 --> 3012.80]  comes in or every project that we get aware of and i think all this might be a really cool project for
+[3012.80 --> 3019.84]  the open source grants um of course in the future this will get a little bit more um detailed and
+[3019.84 --> 3025.84]  there probably will be an application process but for now this is pretty much shoot us an email and and
+[3025.84 --> 3034.96]  and let us know and then um probably i have a skype call with you um since yeah time is an issue so
+[3034.96 --> 3043.68]  um i'm running the foundation and constantin has is the ceo and uh svein fuchs is heavily involved but
+[3043.68 --> 3051.84]  we are all like super tied in so we can't have like 10 projects running right or 10 10 grants running so
+[3051.84 --> 3060.48]  i think for this year we will have all in all we will have three so we had rvm coco pods is running
+[3060.48 --> 3068.40]  right now and we have one lined up um that we will do the end of the year and that was the one i
+[3068.40 --> 3074.48]  thought i heard you say it was soundcloud and coco pods yes so it sounds like it's a a small batch
+[3074.48 --> 3080.80]  um and the application process isn't quite rigid it's more like send us an email tell us your story
+[3080.80 --> 3085.20]  and we'll see how we can support that because i gotta imagine right now there's a lot of listeners
+[3085.20 --> 3092.08]  we get we get way more email way more pings on our uh on our github repo that we set up for
+[3092.08 --> 3097.36]  tracking issues basically which is um you know if you're a listener you can go to github.com
+[3097.36 --> 3103.28]  slash the change log slash ping and submit an issue and tell us about your project there is a list uh
+[3103.28 --> 3110.80]  we do have a small bootstrapped uh you know small team i guess jared right like me you and a couple other
+[3110.80 --> 3115.52]  people basically me you andrew alex those are pretty much the the comment around the change
+[3115.52 --> 3121.52]  law these days yep um but i gotta imagine there's gonna be a lot of people listening to this show
+[3121.52 --> 3127.44]  thinking hmm travis foundation money to do my project get it should i go to get it should i go
+[3127.44 --> 3131.92]  now i'm afraid now i'm afraid to open my med program after this
+[3131.92 --> 3139.52]  oh boy no no awesome uh shoot us an email we're happy about every cool project
+[3140.56 --> 3147.28]  worst case scenario i mean you can always start uh you know maybe an email list or maybe a regular
+[3147.28 --> 3152.00]  post on the change law that talks about some of the cool projects that you you all are funding because
+[3152.00 --> 3156.64]  you know honestly with the change law there's no real i don't know jerry what do you think i mean
+[3156.64 --> 3161.76]  there's no real direct pattern to our content we just try to do whatever we can to promote open
+[3161.76 --> 3169.60]  source whatever we can to promote um its usefulness its community you know my life is better in so
+[3169.60 --> 3174.16]  many ways because of open source not just because of the software itself but because of the people
+[3174.16 --> 3179.44]  and the way that my life has been touched not only by this show but the the blog and you know
+[3179.44 --> 3183.84]  relationships with those that come on the show and every which way you can think of i mean the ripple
+[3183.84 --> 3189.76]  effect is is massive but you know and yeah it's awesome that travis is doing this yeah seeing i mean we
+[3189.76 --> 3195.04]  we focus a lot on uh open source sustainability as we see you know many people get involved with
+[3195.04 --> 3200.48]  open source and then you know it's hard to keep that going as it becomes less fun and more burden
+[3200.48 --> 3206.72]  over time um especially when success brings that upon you uh surprisingly even so seeing stuff like
+[3206.72 --> 3213.68]  corporations doing these grants i had not heard of travis foundation previously um it'd be awesome to have
+[3213.68 --> 3217.76]  those kind of stories be told on the changelog absolutely so we'd be happy to highlight it
+[3218.56 --> 3224.80]  yeah i guess so back into to that jared is um you mentioned corporations giving and travis foundation
+[3224.80 --> 3231.84]  so travis foundation is a 501c3 so it is an it is a non-profit right i think we're working on it yeah
+[3232.72 --> 3238.48]  okay so it's in the process worst case scenario but where does travis foundation get its money to fund
+[3238.48 --> 3244.56]  these grants is it through travis ci i'm sure travis has got to give a decent penny into this but then
+[3244.56 --> 3249.12]  what is the efforts on the backside of this to raise more funds to make these grants possible
+[3249.76 --> 3255.04]  yeah that's why we are working together with uh for example paymail or soundcloud so they actually
+[3255.04 --> 3261.68]  give the money to fund the grants okay we organize this yes and travis i obviously um
+[3261.68 --> 3268.08]  is giving a lot of money and and yeah paying me to do this all uh to organize this oh i'll tell you
+[3268.08 --> 3272.64]  it right here right now on the show and the listeners be ready for it but we want to do more
+[3272.64 --> 3278.72]  to help facilitate whatever we can around this whether it's a post on the changelog obviously
+[3278.72 --> 3283.60]  this show here helps highlight it quite a bit as well but we want to do whatever we can to either
+[3283.60 --> 3288.56]  help you establish relationships with corporate partners or promote any new new grants that are
+[3288.56 --> 3293.60]  being funded like i had no idea that rvm was getting funded through travis foundation and that's
+[3293.60 --> 3300.80]  that's awesome like michael does a we actually the last not the last show 121 but one episode 120 we
+[3300.80 --> 3306.72]  had postmodern on we got to talk a little bit of shop around changing ruby and uh unix paradigms of
+[3306.72 --> 3313.20]  is it ch ruby is it ch root or is it change root so all sorts of fun stuff around that but you know we're
+[3313.20 --> 3319.36]  fans of of those softwares and it's it's neat to see them get funded and continue to live on too so
+[3319.36 --> 3327.68]  cool thank you uh no i guess no real direct questions on that one but we are getting close
+[3327.68 --> 3331.76]  to our our time jared is there anything else around travis that we can talk about before we
+[3332.40 --> 3338.08]  tail off the call i don't think so i'm just excited to see more grants like this going to open source i
+[3338.08 --> 3343.12]  think it's it's going to be awesome so i'm i'm excited that they're kind of heading it up and it sounds
+[3343.12 --> 3350.32]  like um you know other corporations could can reach out to uh well how do they how do other
+[3350.32 --> 3356.48]  corporations get involved just hit the contact form on foundation.travisci.org or what's the call
+[3356.48 --> 3363.68]  to action there yes yes um just go to the website yes and then there is contact button then everything
+[3363.68 --> 3368.72]  will work out magically everything will work out magically so floor you the beginning of a wonderful
+[3368.72 --> 3376.08]  story let me ask you you work at 89s right yes i do sorry there's a little bit of latency so i keep
+[3376.08 --> 3382.16]  stepping over jared and and annika so i'm sorry about that guys but um no worries you floor you
+[3382.16 --> 3386.56]  work at 89s and we've been talking quite a bit about rails grow summer code and you're heavily involved
+[3386.56 --> 3391.84]  there but you're not involved in travis foundation is that right that's that's all right yeah that's
+[3392.88 --> 3396.56]  you know just you know since we haven't heard you for a bit what is your perspective on
+[3396.56 --> 3402.96]  travis foundation like what excites you um someone that's two years into programming someone that's
+[3402.96 --> 3410.08]  speaking and organizing and and leading and teaching software development what are your thoughts on
+[3410.08 --> 3416.40]  you know what travis foundation is doing for open source okay so um i guess first off working for
+[3416.40 --> 3421.52]  any nines actually enables me to work on rails grow summer of code one day a week so that's pretty cool
+[3421.52 --> 3428.96]  that's awesome yes and then second yeah i actually worked with the travis foundation and annika pretty
+[3428.96 --> 3435.52]  closely organizing um the conferences and they definitely helped me back up the cause of you know
+[3435.52 --> 3442.24]  having more female speakers on board and reaching out to a more diverse audience and i'm very excited
+[3442.24 --> 3447.36]  about that i learned a lot from annika and and from the travis foundation how they handle this so that's great
+[3447.36 --> 3456.00]  so you you're a supporter thumbs up right definitely definitely all right cool well um we have some
+[3456.00 --> 3460.56]  common questions we ask at the tail end of the show that they're they're fun questions sometimes but the
+[3460.56 --> 3467.84]  the first question i'll give to annika and um you know we we generally ask it as a programming hero but
+[3467.84 --> 3473.92]  uh the person doesn't have to be a programmer it could be just a hero i don't say the word just lightly but
+[3473.92 --> 3480.96]  uh could be a a hero someone who's uh influenced you someone who's encouraged you someone who's helped
+[3480.96 --> 3490.56]  lead you whomever so who is your hero or programming hero anika um yeah that's a really really tough um
+[3490.56 --> 3497.92]  question because i want to name you can name so many people oh i can name yeah the break the rules okay i'm
+[3497.92 --> 3503.44]  gonna break the rules and i'm gonna be super cheesy but i'm gonna say uh one of my heroes is floor
+[3504.48 --> 3511.52]  and um we've never had a hero on this show at the same time by the way no it's it's really encouraging
+[3511.52 --> 3517.28]  to see what she's been pulling off how she's organizing conferences and rails girls workshops
+[3517.28 --> 3526.48]  and not uh and not goes crazy and still is super um um super supportive with everything and we have
+[3526.48 --> 3534.64]  been working together for not even a year yet and become friends even and and that's i don't know
+[3534.64 --> 3542.32]  and i've seen what she works on and how she does it and i'm amazed and and always when i'm standing in
+[3542.32 --> 3547.20]  front of a question like oh okay should i go to this conference should i dare should i go to this
+[3547.20 --> 3553.76]  meetup i always think okay yes i should do it because floor is like doing this also what would floor do
+[3553.76 --> 3563.76]  and and we need bracelets that is awesome uh she inspired a lot of my um putting myself out there so
+[3563.76 --> 3574.24]  um yes and another woman like i was lena hermann that's a german uh developer and i i got to know her i
+[3574.24 --> 3581.84]  think when she was a single mom and she worked at a company that i um knew and she was actually a coach
+[3581.84 --> 3589.12]  of the first wales girls workshop in berlin that i actually was attending of and because i knew that
+[3589.12 --> 3595.44]  she was going to be there i applied i thought okay okay if she's there i already know somebody
+[3595.44 --> 3600.72]  and this is not not going to be so super awkward and she actually um supported me and said yeah you
+[3600.72 --> 3606.32]  should really apply and she was there when we then started wales girls berlin and is there
+[3606.32 --> 3614.16]  now for red girls summer of code and helping with a with a selection comedy and she has uh she has
+[3614.16 --> 3621.52]  more than one kid i don't know how much but she's pulling it off and as a as a as a mom i think that's
+[3621.52 --> 3627.20]  that even gives you i don't know how many super extra points for even like doing volunteer work
+[3627.84 --> 3635.12]  um i i think we all can't that that we all we don't have a family yet or at least that i can speak of
+[3635.12 --> 3642.48]  myself i don't have a family yet so i can't imagine how hard it must be to do this next to your family
+[3642.48 --> 3649.76]  work i see how hard it is for me to keep this up and keep up volunteer work and yeah so she's definitely
+[3649.76 --> 3654.96]  a hero that i look up to and i want to be her in whenever i'm a mom
+[3654.96 --> 3656.96]  um
+[3658.24 --> 3659.52]  anymore you got just two
+[3661.04 --> 3664.88]  um i'm just messing with you i got just two i got just two
+[3665.52 --> 3669.68]  these two are how about you uh programming or non-programming hero
+[3670.72 --> 3679.52]  okay i get really awkward around my heroes so i would say that um my heroes are and especially my
+[3679.52 --> 3686.32]  programming heroes are the people that helped me get started learning programming um those are
+[3686.32 --> 3692.08]  sebastian who's been on the show before with justine talking about open karma uh he helped me a lot in
+[3692.08 --> 3698.88]  the beginning um tony who was my former co-worker um and andreas uh they helped me a lot getting started with
+[3698.88 --> 3707.92]  programming um furthermore like a real big hero was definitely afni grim um i read all of his books and
+[3707.92 --> 3713.92]  and they inspired me and um taught me so a lot taught me a lot and then we were uh speaking at the
+[3713.92 --> 3721.60]  same conference um at our camp last year and i just remember you know i i saw him walking in and i was
+[3721.60 --> 3728.96]  so i i must have acted like a fool because i get really weird when this kind of thing happened
+[3729.44 --> 3737.28]  same sort of thing uh happened when i met uh met from uh wordpress or automatic um i actually had met him
+[3737.28 --> 3741.68]  a few times before and we had talked before so i could have just you know walked up to him and
+[3741.68 --> 3747.52]  and say something normal um instead i walked by and screamed something like yay wordpress and he
+[3748.56 --> 3755.20]  screamed something back like yay it's very embarrassing and this tends to happen a lot so
+[3755.20 --> 3760.48]  it's funny what you do when you meet like uh you know your hero like this is your hero and
+[3760.48 --> 3767.28]  and you're and instead of being cool you you're embarrassed you embarrass yourself that's i hate
+[3767.28 --> 3773.04]  that yeah this happens especially funny maybe it's better not to have maybe it's better not to have
+[3773.04 --> 3780.00]  heroes yeah i was gonna say especially funny when with like internet based you know people you look up
+[3780.00 --> 3785.12]  to because they're not exactly used to being known you know in real life for things like if you ran up to
+[3785.12 --> 3790.08]  brad pitt and you're like you're my hero he hears that a hundred times a day right but you know like
+[3790.08 --> 3795.44]  avdi grim like he's at a conference and i'm sure from his perspective it's it's probably a bit uh
+[3795.44 --> 3800.24]  it's probably equally awkward for somebody to treat him as if you know they're at a brad pitt level
+[3800.88 --> 3805.04]  um that has to be a fun experience of brad pitt definitely
+[3806.96 --> 3811.20]  we love avdi too at the change law i'm just because we're talking about him he's also
+[3811.20 --> 3817.60]  uh i guess not him directly but um ruby tapas is a partner with the change log so
+[3817.60 --> 3823.12]  yep um you know we've got several you know developer tools and services as well as learning
+[3823.12 --> 3828.80]  resources and that's one of them so if you're learning ruby and you're learning ruby with with avdi
+[3828.80 --> 3833.04]  we have a way through our membership you can save a little bit of money and and still give avdi the
+[3833.04 --> 3839.92]  business but um i want to tell just a short story about myself i think it's kind of funny because most
+[3839.92 --> 3847.36]  people know me by my voice and um my wife gets to experience this a couple times and only because
+[3847.36 --> 3852.88]  we're talking about this kind of odd moments but i'll share the other perspective is i'll be
+[3853.84 --> 3858.16]  at a conference which i don't go to too many conferences often i'm just just not that involved
+[3858.16 --> 3864.00]  in conferences for for whatever reason but um people will hear my voice and they'll turn around
+[3864.00 --> 3869.12]  and they'll say is that adam stack because they know me as my twitter and i guess that's just kind
+[3869.12 --> 3874.80]  of how people would go about business but it's always funny because i'm like you hear my voice
+[3874.80 --> 3883.12]  and you know who i am it's that was that's always the funny part but um let's see what else with
+[3883.12 --> 3888.08]  other questions we have is um is i guess if andrew were here he'd be yelling me right now because call
+[3888.08 --> 3892.88]  arms at first but let's talk about call to arms i know we've kind of talked quite a bit about rails
+[3892.88 --> 3898.64]  girls summer code travis foundation we're all excited about um you know the fruits of of this
+[3898.64 --> 3904.00]  effort and what it's gonna where it's gonna go but you know today you know when people are listening
+[3904.00 --> 3908.56]  to this show you know within the next week to two weeks besides donating which obviously is a huge
+[3908.56 --> 3914.56]  call to arms but say that again if that's it um you know what is the call to arms for you know either
+[3914.56 --> 3919.12]  summer of code or travis foundation and you can individually answer or
+[3919.12 --> 3922.72]  or uh choose your uh or floor
+[3925.60 --> 3931.76]  um okay should i go first um okay so we probably can't say that enough that we
+[3932.40 --> 3941.12]  want you to donate so this is definitely a call to action but also if if you can't or are not willing
+[3941.12 --> 3947.28]  to give money or don't have so much money to give we are always looking for supporters that can help us
+[3947.28 --> 3952.72]  in the organization part because that's all volunteer work and um or the coaches part like
+[3952.72 --> 3959.36]  we we said we are gonna have a help desk a remote help desk so if you're a programmer and and say yeah
+[3959.36 --> 3967.20]  okay i can hang around campfire some hours um do it awesome just shoot us an email and um yeah just
+[3967.20 --> 3973.60]  get involved and risk as a mouth code it's it's a whole community project and yeah this is the call out to the
+[3973.60 --> 3980.00]  the community also annika correct me do you feel the same of course i feel the same
+[3983.52 --> 3990.08]  um annika you have to correct me if i'm wrong but do we have like if someone wants to help out with uh
+[3990.08 --> 3996.88]  with the help desk if they register by their team set can they you know say that they want to be in the
+[3996.88 --> 4003.68]  help desk because i know that last year that was the case sure yeah you can say you can check the box
+[4003.68 --> 4008.80]  remote code or help desk code awesome so then people just have to go to teams.railsgirls
+[4009.52 --> 4016.80]  summer of code.org and register as a help desker that would be awesome help desk or have i heard that
+[4016.80 --> 4022.80]  one before and maybe um if you're a conference organizer and you definitely want to have some
+[4022.80 --> 4028.48]  great uh rails girls summer of code students in your audience and giving a lightning talk about
+[4028.48 --> 4034.08]  rails girls summer of code um well you're very welcome to give away some free tickets to them
+[4034.08 --> 4041.44]  and maybe even help them with their travels and stay yes absolutely nice i know code front.io is
+[4041.44 --> 4047.28]  is happening right now we just um gave away some tickets oh it's i thought it was today that's why i'm
+[4047.28 --> 4052.64]  in in vienna right now so there you go so you'll be there we were giving away some tickets there and
+[4052.64 --> 4057.60]  yeah so is there any lightning talks going on there for yes rosego summer code well there is a lightning
+[4057.60 --> 4064.96]  talk uh track and there will be someone probably me talking about rails girls summer of code so yeah
+[4065.76 --> 4069.36]  yeah i'm a member of the team so i can definitely do this conference it's really good conference
+[4070.56 --> 4076.08]  i'm looking forward to this uh and i guess the last one is uh if you weren't
+[4076.08 --> 4081.44]  i guess running travis foundation and and leading that or if you weren't organizing rails
+[4081.44 --> 4087.12]  girls summer code or participating uh we'll let you go one at a time but what would you be doing if
+[4087.12 --> 4092.72]  you weren't writing ruby or or doing the organization of these awesome efforts annika we'll let you go
+[4092.72 --> 4098.80]  first like for money what would i do for money yeah like well i guess you know what would you
+[4099.68 --> 4103.36]  yeah if you weren't doing that what else would you be doing like would you be your you study
+[4103.36 --> 4110.16]  lingu you study linguistics and um looking back at your profile how do you say that linguistics and
+[4110.16 --> 4116.40]  gender studies so i'd imagine probably something in that range right or maybe not uh yeah maybe not
+[4116.40 --> 4121.36]  because when i finished studying gender studies i said oh no way i'm gonna work in this field
+[4121.92 --> 4129.60]  because it's just too harsh no um yeah i would probably be writing a lot and um and and doing doing
+[4129.60 --> 4136.16]  my own thing my i've been dreaming about starting a co-working space uh forever and have a little
+[4136.16 --> 4142.56]  cafe there so that's probably where i would be you and i should talk because i've had a similar desire
+[4142.56 --> 4148.08]  but i'm not in a place where that would be possible so i just had a dream as well oh okay yeah let's
+[4148.08 --> 4152.08]  talk i actually wanted to make it a cop well i mean that's kind of cliche though right coffee shop
+[4152.08 --> 4156.64]  and co-working space it's been done before but i kind of wanted to put a little twist on it and
+[4156.64 --> 4161.68]  i got a feeling that dan benjamin is one day going to take this idea and run with it and do it better
+[4161.68 --> 4166.32]  than i'll ever do it but here's the idea is that i want to say it out loud yeah don't share
+[4168.24 --> 4172.08]  you should start a secret club and then we'll make some great co-working space
+[4172.08 --> 4177.52]  i shouldn't tell anybody you want to know tell us the twist after we after we stop the call okay
+[4177.52 --> 4182.80]  fine i'll tell the callers only if you're listening to this and you absolutely have to know just email me
+[4182.80 --> 4187.12]  adam at changelog.com so everybody's really frustrated
+[4188.16 --> 4194.00]  he's gonna say it but he's not gonna do it man uh what about you flor what if you weren't writing ruby
+[4194.00 --> 4199.52]  if you weren't uh attending all the conferences and coaching and organizing all that you do what would
+[4199.52 --> 4206.48]  you be doing if you weren't doing that so um actually i graduated as um as a graphics designer at
+[4206.48 --> 4212.40]  art school in in the nilands and then i changed um to doing a lot of sort of community management work
+[4212.40 --> 4218.24]  and then i changed to becoming a programmer i think i have enough changes in my life so far
+[4218.24 --> 4223.52]  and i'm still getting used to this whole you know uh programming and doing a lot for the developer
+[4223.52 --> 4231.20]  community and which i enjoy a lot um i also really found my way um in this whole tech world uh writing
+[4231.20 --> 4237.20]  technical documentation i love doing this i love writing issues people think i'm crazy for this but i
+[4237.20 --> 4242.48]  really love doing doing all documentation stuff so um i think i actually found my place already
+[4244.08 --> 4248.72]  nice so you're doing what you would be doing then so if you weren't doing this you would be trying to
+[4248.72 --> 4256.40]  find a way to do what you're doing i'd be crying all the time well at least you're honest that is cool
+[4256.40 --> 4262.16]  yeah you know writing docs and issues are not my forte i don't mind doing them when i have to but
+[4262.16 --> 4266.96]  i do have to commend you on having a passion for that because that's that's unique now you can
+[4266.96 --> 4274.00]  always ping floor if you don't yeah totally why don't i speak for the entire team here at the
+[4274.00 --> 4278.64]  changelog when i say that it's been a pleasure to have you both on the show this week the work you're
+[4278.64 --> 4284.80]  doing is super important and uh rails grow summer code travis foundation we want to be a part of that
+[4284.80 --> 4290.08]  future so we want to support you however we can uh this year next year in the years to come so
+[4290.08 --> 4296.00]  whatever we can ever do to support you in in both of those missions or even personally just just let
+[4296.00 --> 4301.44]  us know reach out you have a friend now um and and i also want to give a shout out to our sponsors
+[4301.44 --> 4310.40]  uh the the sponsors of the show are ninefold code ship and top towel and uh we love their support they're
+[4310.40 --> 4316.32]  absolutely great to us code ship and top to happen to be partners as well as sponsors and that means that
+[4316.32 --> 4321.68]  they're uh supporting us in the long term they're investing in the future of the change law to make
+[4321.68 --> 4326.40]  sure that we're always here um doing the work we're doing to support open source and we thank them for
+[4326.40 --> 4332.00]  that ninefold we hope to have as a partner in the future as well um we'll hope that uh that to come
+[4332.00 --> 4336.40]  but they're awesome companies we absolutely love their support uh and couldn't uh couldn't do this
+[4336.40 --> 4343.20]  without them so um we do have an awesome show lined up next week chad whitaker the founder of get up is
+[4343.20 --> 4349.20]  going to be on the show uh should be a fantastic conversation if you're not using get up or uh or
+[4349.20 --> 4354.72]  whatnot to to kind of crowd fund your work in open source or whatever you're you're doing the people
+[4354.72 --> 4361.52]  you inspire get up.com is uh is a cool thing so next week tune into that until then let's say goodbye
+[4361.52 --> 4375.52]  goodbye bye bye

Ruby Tooling, chruby, ruby-install, Security_transcript.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,710 @@
+[0.00 --> 14.54]  welcome back everyone this is the changelog where remember supportive blog podcast and
+[14.54 --> 19.22]  weekly email covering what's fresh and what's new in open source check out the blog at the
+[19.22 --> 26.16]  changelog.com our past shows at five by five dot tv slash changelog and you're listening to episode
+[26.16 --> 33.34]  120 andrew and i talked to postmodern about his open source projects ch ruby ruby install ch gems
+[33.34 --> 40.16]  ronin and more today's show is sponsored by ninefold code ship and new relic we'll tell you a
+[40.16 --> 45.00]  more about code ship and new relic later in the show but ninefold is our our first sponsor they're
+[45.00 --> 50.46]  a high performance platform for deploying and hosting ruby on rails applications the platform
+[50.46 --> 57.16]  is built on ninefold's own infrastructure with servers in u.s and asia pacific because ninefold
+[57.16 --> 62.26]  owns the entire stack from the hardware up they provide you with quantifiably superior performance
+[62.26 --> 67.52]  compared to the competition with more economical scaling ninefold makes it extremely easy to deploy
+[67.52 --> 72.14]  your rails application straight from your git repo by either using the online wizard or the command
+[72.14 --> 79.46]  line interface ninefold also offers great support zero downtime deployment ssl redis memcache load
+[79.46 --> 85.68]  balancers and firewalls for free straight out of the box experience ninefold superior performance
+[85.68 --> 94.76]  and easy deployment with a 30-day free trial just visit ninefold.com to sign up and now on to the show
+[94.76 --> 103.54]  welcome back everybody we are joined today by postmodern to talk about ch ruby or truby um not
+[103.54 --> 107.58]  really sure the correct pronunciation there we'll let postmodern give us the definitive answer at some
+[107.58 --> 113.92]  point uh ronin ch gems and a number of other projects that uh postmodern has been working on so
+[113.92 --> 117.72]  to get started here why don't you give us an introduction of kind of who you are and where
+[117.72 --> 124.16]  you come from and projects that you're working on hello um i'm postmodern uh i write a lot of ruby by
+[124.16 --> 130.72]  trade um kind of uh ch ruby and ruby install were kind of more recent projects i wrote just out of uh
+[130.72 --> 137.88]  sheer need of them so it's it's not like a real passionate kind of backgrounds um yeah so i hail
+[137.88 --> 145.16]  from the the pacific northwest or cascadia as we like to call it got some friends there yep yep uh it's
+[145.16 --> 154.36]  up in a little little teeny town uh portland's and uh kind of native uh for a long time but yeah um
+[154.36 --> 161.34]  so mostly i do a lot of like security research i like developing tools and kind of automated attacks
+[161.34 --> 168.22]  that that's really what i'm into and tickles my fancy and like as i kind of got more into using
+[168.22 --> 174.82]  ruby forts i kind of like got into noticing the pain points and i thought well you know i've i've
+[174.82 --> 179.74]  been working in ruby for a long time you know maybe i could try my hand at actually you know fixing
+[179.74 --> 185.40]  some of these or making tools that uh kind of like fit and met my needs or you know solve my problems
+[185.40 --> 191.86]  so that's uh that's kind of what i've been doing and you know yeah gotcha so real quick um just to
+[191.86 --> 197.98]  just to kind of get a get an answer here i've always called it uh ch root but i could be wrong you're the
+[197.98 --> 203.48]  security person so give us a uh what do you call it you call it ch root and then subsequently do you
+[203.48 --> 209.62]  call it ch ruby or what should we be calling it man so i think it really depends on kind of the
+[209.62 --> 215.62]  the people or the persons um everyone has their own weird pronunciation of all these unix utilities
+[215.62 --> 220.82]  uh because they're kind of like they were designed to be easy to type out not really necessarily
+[220.82 --> 230.18]  pronounce and so like i've heard uh ch roots i have heard ch roots um there are people actually like
+[230.18 --> 235.80]  i don't know maybe once i've heard someone say like change roots actually like spell out the actual
+[235.80 --> 241.98]  word so i really don't know um i don't know what the actual pronunciation is and i think it's more
+[241.98 --> 246.64]  just like we it's not really necessary to actually say it out loud because we just type it so it's
+[246.64 --> 251.98]  kind of like one of those things you're just like you know that thing yeah that thing yeah yeah yeah
+[251.98 --> 256.98]  yeah i think i uh i'll stick with ch ruby then uh and whatever tickles your fancy i guess is the
+[256.98 --> 261.64]  appropriate answer here in the pre-show you mentioned a funny one what was the funny one that uh for linux
+[261.64 --> 268.26]  that that uh could be said kind of a funny way oh well um i don't know like it's kind of a weird
+[268.26 --> 272.02]  thing like a lot of talking a lot of people everyone has their own pronunciations but um
+[272.02 --> 278.78]  one of my friends was actually a while back doing research into using uh the upa np protocol or
+[278.78 --> 284.80]  universal plug and play protocol which allows you know routers to open up ports uh for services and
+[284.80 --> 289.56]  stuff like that um port forwarding and that but you can actually use it for punching holes in like
+[289.56 --> 295.30]  you know firewalls on shitty neck your routers but uh he kept referring to the protocol as like
+[295.30 --> 301.36]  up and up and so he's like yeah i'm looking into this uh up and up protocol like what is that well
+[301.36 --> 306.52]  up and up is the protocol that lets you open up ports right it's it's on the up and up yeah
+[306.52 --> 312.64]  no that's awesome so why don't you just for everybody that i don't know if you work in ruby and a lot of
+[312.64 --> 318.22]  our listeners do i'm sure they've heard of rvm or rbm or chruby or whatever so why don't you kind of
+[318.22 --> 325.10]  give us an introduction to just what what what is chruby what's the reason that it's here okay so
+[325.10 --> 334.92]  um so i before chruby i actually used rvm a lot and i used it primarily on kind of like fedora
+[334.92 --> 342.86]  that's kind of like my main operating system of choice um before that uh basically i kind of only
+[342.86 --> 350.34]  used actually system ruby um because before that i was on gen 2 and actually no um so kind of a side
+[350.34 --> 354.82]  note is fedora actually does a really good job of packaging ruby and they actually configure it
+[354.82 --> 361.46]  they configure ruby gems to install into your local home directory for gems and when you're actually a
+[361.46 --> 368.28]  normal user and when your roots it installs into usr local share wherever um so it really wasn't
+[368.28 --> 375.14]  necessary to use rvm a lot because a lot of times i was just using the most recent version of ruby but
+[375.14 --> 380.36]  you know when i actually needed to upgrade and you know test uh newer versions of 1.9 and 2.0
+[380.36 --> 385.76]  then i kind of like okay i actually started using uh rvm and i was recommended to a lot of my other
+[385.76 --> 391.26]  friends where i try and get up to speed in ruby and so they could help out with like open source
+[391.26 --> 397.56]  projects collaborate together but anyways um one of the problems there's like a lot of the pain points that
+[397.56 --> 403.10]  developed along with using the rvm extensively for a long time and one of the kind of the main ones is
+[403.10 --> 409.74]  like yeah it's a huge collection of bash scripts and um bash is kind of a really terrible programming
+[409.74 --> 415.38]  language and environments and that kind of contributes to the bugs and there's also platform
+[415.38 --> 421.84]  specific issues where certain platforms will change things um and it has to be cognizant of all this
+[421.84 --> 428.46]  and then there's also issues with how it organizes rubies um like if for instance you basically
+[428.46 --> 432.88]  assumes that it should be installed into your home directory you can install it system-wide but
+[432.88 --> 439.36]  the installation of the software is coupled to the location where it actually installs the rubies and
+[439.36 --> 444.82]  that really kind of annoyed me because i really kind of wanted all my rubies out of my home directory
+[444.82 --> 450.76]  i wanted my software installed globally so other users on my system maybe like i have some
+[450.76 --> 456.94]  automated scripts that ran under like a you know dummy user account for safety reasons i wanted it
+[456.94 --> 462.22]  to have access to it and i want to have rubies installed in some global location and then also
+[462.22 --> 467.06]  have rubies installed in some like you know my home directory or you know i have other partitions
+[467.06 --> 472.70]  where i usually just like a dump code where i want to like check out the latest version of rubinius
+[472.70 --> 478.20]  so i'll pull that down some other directory and build it build it there and that really wasn't
+[478.20 --> 485.26]  possible if rvm uh it will be possible if rvm2 with the ability to mount arbitrary installation
+[485.26 --> 491.64]  paths where ruby is installed maybe you threw it in the opt directory or somewhere else so that was
+[491.64 --> 497.46]  kind of one of the things and then eventually i like that just got so many bugs where i kind of
+[497.46 --> 503.04]  like went back to using system ruby because it was just really useful and most of my work involved
+[503.04 --> 510.30]  uh just developing against like you know 2.0 right and then using travis ci to test all the other
+[510.30 --> 516.02]  versions right but then um i got like started a contract and i was like oh crap i'm gonna really
+[516.02 --> 522.72]  need to get a working environment here that i can just you know use any sort of um version so i kind
+[522.72 --> 526.56]  of got thinking about it and it's like you know usually when i start projects there's always this
+[526.56 --> 532.06]  period of like deep thought and kind of research so i was kind of like do i really want to spend the
+[532.06 --> 537.56]  time developing like a ruby switcher i mean there's rvm it's giant am i gonna like fall down the same
+[537.56 --> 545.14]  path that um you know kind of like the the developers of rvm have like uh i believe uh wayne
+[545.14 --> 550.28]  kind of got burnt out with dealing with all the issues and michael pappas is uh or michael pappas is
+[550.28 --> 555.40]  doing a really good job of maintaining it but still like really stressful so i was like i went around
+[555.40 --> 562.62]  and kind of like researched how rvm um basically like changed manipulate the path and then i also
+[562.62 --> 568.88]  got uh i looked at rbm as i started like okay well let's let's look at the alternatives before i jump
+[568.88 --> 573.72]  into like starting a huge project right before a contract job where i'm gonna have to be like
+[573.72 --> 579.64]  heads down dedicated and so there's like lots of various other ruby switchers out there
+[579.64 --> 586.94]  and um rbm is pretty much the only shims based ruby switcher and so there's kind of like issues
+[586.94 --> 592.88]  when uh because i tried it when it was still kind of pretty new and fresh and so and it was kind of
+[592.88 --> 599.50]  confused with how the shims worked and this they had like different levels of setting which desired
+[599.50 --> 605.08]  ruby do you want like you had like that was it shell local system global or something like that yeah
+[605.08 --> 612.66]  and then also i've i felt like it it copied a lot of features not copied but you know it re-implemented
+[612.66 --> 620.32]  a lot of rvm ish features so i kind of felt like it wasn't really thinking outside the box it wasn't
+[620.32 --> 626.14]  like unthinking it was still kind of following in the shadow or the footsteps of kind of like how all
+[626.14 --> 632.60]  of us rubyist have sort of like grew grew up expecting the environment to work in the tools and
+[632.60 --> 638.42]  you know like even has a sub command feature which is like a very rvm ish thing in my opinion
+[638.42 --> 643.12]  and instead of having multiple separate utilities and scripts that work together in conjunction
+[643.12 --> 649.54]  has this huge like sub command thing um but yeah there's also lots of other weird ruby switchers it
+[649.54 --> 653.96]  turns out that is like kind of looking around by the way i define ruby switcher as something that
+[653.96 --> 660.30]  only switches the ruby version uh that seems to be the the thing that you say most is like this is just
+[660.30 --> 666.24]  a switcher it doesn't install like rvm does it's one job of one job only which i guess falls back on
+[666.24 --> 672.64]  your linux unix background too of of you know one job really well right and there's lots of other
+[672.64 --> 677.46]  basically implement implementations of this and i found that like i kind of went through and kind of
+[677.46 --> 684.00]  rated them or scored them on like uh features and it's uh one of the kind of the probably the most
+[684.00 --> 693.58]  well-developed ones was uh rbfoo uh were by hmans that's his github handle and so i tried that i was
+[693.58 --> 697.74]  like okay this might be it's not what i'm looking for and because they just need something really
+[697.74 --> 703.24]  minimal that just manipulates path and you know sets some couple environment variables you know it
+[703.24 --> 709.48]  shouldn't be this hard and so i looked at it and like some of the things were nice um but one of the
+[709.48 --> 713.62]  things that kind of annoyed me with it was kind of the syntax so when you actually type the version
+[713.62 --> 719.76]  for some reason he like began the versions with an at sign and then there was also kind of the whole
+[719.76 --> 724.92]  coupling where it expected the rubies to be in your home directory and sure you could probably sim
+[724.92 --> 729.16]  link them out but i really want to have like a configurable list where i just give arbitrary paths
+[729.16 --> 734.92]  right and then also i noticed a lot of these ruby switchers would always sets what they would hard
+[734.92 --> 741.28]  code the gem path and gem uh gem home which are kind of the locations where it should look up the
+[741.28 --> 749.30]  ruby gems and one of the things that kind of annoyed me is the so when you install since was it ruby 1.9
+[749.30 --> 756.40]  ruby gems has been uh shipped with ruby so it actually ruby gems has its own main gem directory
+[756.40 --> 763.06]  inside ruby and actually now ruby comes with some uh pre-installed gems like a big decimal
+[763.06 --> 770.82]  um what was it io console uh some other ones i can't remember off the top of my head but anyways
+[770.82 --> 778.54]  so it's really important that first of all you're not supposed to assume that the gem directory of
+[778.54 --> 785.50]  that's in the main ruby install is always in that location because rubinius actually has its own also
+[785.50 --> 790.56]  gem directory that they that's you know kind of in when you install rubinius it also installs its own
+[790.56 --> 795.84]  gem directory and said not in the same location which is kind of a little annoyance but um also
+[795.84 --> 803.00]  the fact that the uh you need the actual api version of the ruby so for instance uh this is not the
+[803.00 --> 808.62]  actual version of the ruby but the actual kind of overarching api version like you know um all the
+[808.62 --> 816.42]  1.8 series it was just 1.8 but since uh mri 1.9.0 was kind of a botched release that had like some
+[816.42 --> 822.72]  showstopper bugs in it they actually bumped the api version to 1.9.1 so that's kind of another kind
+[822.72 --> 830.78]  of like hiccup you have to detect and then also um the gem directory might not be writable um people
+[830.78 --> 835.12]  assume it's going to be writable because the ruby install is in your home directory and you probably
+[835.12 --> 839.40]  have a writable access to that and i kind of felt that that was kind of violating the whole unix
+[839.40 --> 845.84]  principle of uh keeping software separate from the users so you don't actually delete it or you know
+[845.84 --> 851.04]  download some weird virus and you know embeds itself in the software you have writable permission
+[851.04 --> 857.10]  separation where you you would separate the gems you installed as a user versus the gems you install
+[857.10 --> 863.48]  as roots which is something also i i you know copied from how fedora sets theirs up and i think uh
+[863.48 --> 870.64]  deviant also has updated has done something similar and also wanted basically be able to switch between
+[870.64 --> 875.78]  rubies from arbitrary locations and it would just automatically detect the gem directory
+[875.78 --> 881.70]  and calculate it all out the other thing uh that also annoyed me about using rvm was the fact
+[881.70 --> 887.08]  that they made gem directories specific to each patch level which was really annoying when you upgrade
+[887.08 --> 891.82]  because you have to upgrade all your gems and like it's only a patch level guys it's not like
+[891.82 --> 899.30]  a big feature feature breaking version release um so that's kind of like that i put all that together
+[899.30 --> 903.08]  i think i spent about a week week and a half kind of like doing all this research and
+[903.08 --> 908.98]  kind of like figuring out the features and how to go about doing them and uh kind of wrote up my
+[908.98 --> 914.02]  first initial version and so so you spent the the couple weeks trying to figure out the features
+[914.02 --> 919.50]  and then the feature you landed on uh the feature set you landed on is like very very small it's
+[919.50 --> 926.46]  interesting and just to clarify like we've had kind of the longer this show goes on like in terms of
+[926.46 --> 932.06]  the changelog as a whole not this particular show uh we've obviously had like predecessors and then
+[932.06 --> 938.04]  like current the new hot and then you know the the future people will inevitably come but just to
+[938.04 --> 943.50]  just to make sure that nobody here it thinks this way like we're not here to disparage against any of
+[943.50 --> 947.96]  the previous ones because what they do is they they set up a path and like a you know you can learn
+[947.96 --> 955.14]  lessons and ch ruby has in postmodern has benefited greatly from the things that the the ones before
+[955.14 --> 963.64]  him have done and so yeah go ahead uh also i was going to point out that uh uh michael pappas uh the
+[963.64 --> 969.52]  current maintainer of rvm1 and also who's working on rvm2 basically i kind of showed it to him and
+[969.52 --> 975.12]  this was like the first version of ch ruby which didn't even support auto switching and he was like
+[975.12 --> 982.36]  oh great another ruby switcher you know oh you're gonna gonna just you know disparage rvm and you know
+[982.36 --> 987.86]  poo poo on it and like it was like no no no it's just completely different scale down it only does
+[987.86 --> 992.96]  this one thing it's not supposed to try it's not trying to compete with rvm or even rbm as far as i
+[992.96 --> 998.64]  can tell too when michael was on the show recently too he was saying that rvm 2.0 was going to expand
+[998.64 --> 1004.42]  not only into ruby but also python and be and go beyond so i mean i think he had like this much
+[1004.42 --> 1010.48]  larger scope to go towards yeah he's talking about basically um also integrating with the package
+[1010.48 --> 1017.02]  manager and so it's very similar to certain things like um oh red had has a single was it software
+[1017.02 --> 1022.26]  collection layers or something like that but basically he wants uh an environment manager
+[1022.26 --> 1028.34]  literally and it's something that can install my sequel and dump a really nice auto you know
+[1028.34 --> 1034.70]  basic configuration so you can you know start using it out of the box um yeah but and also he's
+[1034.70 --> 1039.92]  helped me a lot with a lot of the bash issues and sort of bouncing ideas off him like well how did rvm
+[1039.92 --> 1044.94]  handle this weird obscure that's awesome honestly i mean michael's a good guy i know he took over for
+[1044.94 --> 1051.52]  wayne when when things kind of got harder for him and we've had uh several people on the show come and
+[1051.52 --> 1059.14]  talk about um burnout i can't recall his name andrew helped me out but he was um on just like four or
+[1059.14 --> 1064.52]  five shows back names gap me right now i have to look at our show list but i think to andrew's point
+[1064.52 --> 1069.88]  was to say that you know we're not here to bash any predecessors we're here to this is open source
+[1069.88 --> 1076.76]  things change software is the most complex volatile market ever so i mean obviously that's the case we
+[1076.76 --> 1082.30]  love mike we love rvm and but we we lift up everybody to to kind of get their word out and what they're
+[1082.30 --> 1088.54]  doing and why it's important and why rubia should care yeah yeah definitely let's pause the show for just
+[1088.54 --> 1093.54]  a minute give a shout out to our sponsor code chip they're also a partner of ours so super excited to be
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+[1145.34 --> 1155.34]  benefits to learn more once again code chip.io try it today so to kind of move forward the when i first
+[1155.34 --> 1162.28]  found chruby which was i don't you know maybe 10 months ago a year ago 15 i don't know so somewhere in
+[1162.28 --> 1169.50]  the past uh the way that everyone was using it was uh basically using ruby build which was built by sam
+[1169.50 --> 1177.62]  stevenson and others um i think originally just was supposed to be purely for rbm and then they
+[1177.62 --> 1184.14]  decided to like make it easier to use as a standalone thing and so chruby was just a switcher and a lot
+[1184.14 --> 1190.94]  of people were using ruby build to actually install rubies um and uh just recently i you know went back
+[1190.94 --> 1197.68]  and started evaluating these things again and i saw that now there's ruby install um which essentially
+[1197.68 --> 1204.24]  does the same thing as ruby build it actually allows you to install rubies so why so i obviously
+[1204.24 --> 1208.46]  we see why you you created chruby and you know looking at all the other ones what about that
+[1208.46 --> 1214.84]  why did you create ruby install so initially i also used ruby build because you know it's it was a nice
+[1214.84 --> 1219.90]  decoupled tool and i could just use it for its one specific purpose but there's lots of things about
+[1219.90 --> 1225.00]  it that kind of got under my skin and so i started this whole process of kind of like evaluating it
+[1225.00 --> 1231.62]  and evaluating how rvm also handles uh compiling installing and of course they go into way more
+[1231.62 --> 1238.54]  detail of handling weird obscure uh platform specific issues but um so what the way ruby build
+[1238.54 --> 1246.26]  works is it has basically definitions for every single version so literally you can you can you have to
+[1246.26 --> 1250.94]  actually specify the fully qualified version and that was kind of one annoyance because literally i just
+[1250.94 --> 1257.16]  i when i install uh you know some version i really don't care just won't give me the most recent 193
+[1257.16 --> 1264.20]  that you know of um or you know literally copy and paste the version from uh the the news the news
+[1264.20 --> 1268.76]  announcement on ruby lang when they release a new version they're it's going to be there so just copy
+[1268.76 --> 1274.52]  and paste in the command line but then as i kind of like dug into it more um that was kind of a minor
+[1274.52 --> 1280.28]  nuisance but um i dug into it a lot more i found that it does lots of really weird things with
+[1280.28 --> 1288.18]  trying to detect um kind of when libraries are available and it also can download um its own
+[1288.18 --> 1294.26]  versions of open ssl and compiles those and then links ruby against that and that kind of like that
+[1294.26 --> 1298.22]  worried me because i automatically knew that eventually there's going to be a vulnerability
+[1298.22 --> 1304.18]  in these libraries and there's not going to be an easy way to to update them you can't just go
+[1304.18 --> 1309.48]  like oh update the library like it's it's compile installed into its own directory and literally you
+[1309.48 --> 1314.16]  have to reinstall the rubies to cause to force the newer version to get downloaded and then
+[1314.16 --> 1319.14]  the ruby compiled against the newer version so i was kind of like well obviously that's kind of a
+[1319.14 --> 1324.88]  that should be another feature is just use the package manager uh because every system the packages are
+[1324.88 --> 1331.12]  there available you can compile against them and they die the ruby dynamically links against them and so
+[1331.12 --> 1336.96]  when there's a vulnerability you just update the package you're good go and also distributions are
+[1336.96 --> 1341.78]  really good about backporting security fixes and so you can update and not worry about getting weird
+[1341.78 --> 1348.76]  api breakage um you literally just get that one fix so that was kind of another thing that inspired me and
+[1348.76 --> 1356.36]  and i really just want something that would work on as many systems against many package managers as
+[1356.36 --> 1362.72]  possible and of course it's a lot easier because uh chruby has to work in both bash and zsh
+[1362.72 --> 1368.90]  whereas ruby install was a utility and so i could just write against bash 3 and uh do that
+[1368.90 --> 1379.00]  yeah and so and i basically kind of took a very um declarative uh design to it where literally you
+[1379.00 --> 1384.94]  have like individual files build files for each major implementation and they define the configuration
+[1384.94 --> 1391.82]  step the compile step and the install step and then kind of like any sort of specific uh package
+[1391.82 --> 1396.20]  manager configuration like you have to do some weird things with homebrew because its packages
+[1396.20 --> 1404.08]  aren't in like a place where a lot of the um the auto the auto conf scripts of mri can find them so
+[1404.08 --> 1409.68]  you have to literally hint at it which is something i learned from uh rvm where there's an option call
+[1409.68 --> 1416.30]  was it with opter and you have to pass that in specifically for homebrew and and mac ports also
+[1416.30 --> 1423.16]  because mac ports installs in that's still around um yeah yeah actually and i got a recently got a uh
+[1423.16 --> 1431.10]  a bug report from a user who was attempting to use think which is like super old yeah and like back in
+[1431.10 --> 1436.60]  the day actually i had was at the uh the last generation ibook and it's i ran osx for a while and
+[1436.60 --> 1443.36]  then uh back when it's like power pc and i went back to uh running like linux on it so i knew about think
+[1443.36 --> 1450.54]  and i was like whoa that's still what's people use that still but yeah oh yeah just glancing at the
+[1450.54 --> 1455.58]  glancing at the project home page they are still getting regular releases which is pretty cool to
+[1455.58 --> 1462.66]  see it lasting this long yeah that's cool so i guess that's a you kind of hit on uh you had a a
+[1462.66 --> 1470.92]  not a feature request but a bug report and uh you do the ch ruby and ruby install they do such
+[1470.92 --> 1478.52]  small things so how often like ch ruby is 90 lines of code right so maintaining this seemingly would
+[1478.52 --> 1484.56]  be much easier than maintaining rvm uh so how much of your time do you have to dedicate to actually
+[1484.56 --> 1491.04]  maintaining ch ruby um it's pretty much feature complete at this point uh basically i'm sort of
+[1491.04 --> 1495.30]  waiting it's kind of one of the first projects where i've been really skeptical about feature
+[1495.30 --> 1500.90]  requests uh normally a lot of my projects i'm like always trying to please whoever is submitting the
+[1500.90 --> 1505.32]  issue and you know thinking up crazy new features to add this is the first one where i actually
+[1505.32 --> 1511.06]  really constrained myself and that was caused primarily because the lot of the line uh line
+[1511.06 --> 1517.90]  count uh limitation because i want to keep it the core of it in 100 lines and um of course there's
+[1517.90 --> 1522.80]  other additional things like the the auto switching but that's in a separate file that you can choose not
+[1522.80 --> 1529.02]  to load because a lot of um on a previous job there's worked with this system administrator who just
+[1529.02 --> 1534.62]  like cringed at the idea of having some sort of crazy bass script that you know auto detects and
+[1534.62 --> 1540.64]  switches rubies when you see the injured directories and so um but yeah so that really has kind of
+[1540.64 --> 1544.48]  constrained me and that's going to kind of really interesting where i actually really critically look
+[1544.48 --> 1549.52]  at features and whether they can be uh implemented by like third party tools or if they have to
+[1549.52 --> 1555.02]  integrate it or do we even really need them because a lot of the feature requests were uh basically
+[1555.02 --> 1561.82]  things that people are used to coming from rvm and i kind of think like well do we really need this
+[1561.82 --> 1568.54]  like or is this is something we're really kind of familiar with and we miss did i miss why you said
+[1568.54 --> 1574.50]  that there's a constraint why the hunter line constraint so basically i wanted to keep it as small as
+[1574.50 --> 1581.12]  possible i didn't want to like go out of control and you know develop a you know a sub command system
+[1581.12 --> 1586.90]  or any of these other things that the bigger kind of ruby switchers managers have and so i kind of
+[1586.90 --> 1591.50]  like i always kind of like look down on the whole idea of like putting line constraints line count
+[1591.50 --> 1596.52]  constraints on projects as kind of like it's kind of like a hat trick you know it's kind of like vim golf
+[1596.52 --> 1603.62]  yeah but really it does it does help you it forces you it like it sets a real kind of like um
+[1603.62 --> 1610.02]  like risk points or danger point where it's like you cannot pass this line that's this invisible barrier
+[1610.02 --> 1617.30]  once you do you're in some danger right and um yeah and so that that's that's kind of helped me
+[1617.30 --> 1622.04]  um dealing with maintenance uh there was a period when i first rolled out the auto switching that i
+[1622.04 --> 1627.36]  did have to deal with tons of bugs and weird shell issues and so i spent a lot of time asking stupid
+[1627.36 --> 1633.32]  questions in the bass irc channel and getting really kind of like burnt out uh disgruntled replies
+[1633.32 --> 1643.32]  and um stop asking yeah i know it's like rtfm dude but um yeah so that that kind of did take up
+[1643.32 --> 1648.64]  some time but since it was so small a lot of the changes just required thinking really carefully
+[1648.64 --> 1655.10]  about kind of the trade-offs that's another thing about shell scripting is it seems simple on on its
+[1655.10 --> 1661.10]  face but every single command every serve behavior has like a dozen or so edge cases you have to be
+[1661.10 --> 1667.58]  cognizant of and then there's also implementation differences between the shells uh based on like
+[1667.58 --> 1674.72]  what's how they evolved because like bash came from ash um and there's also dash which is the
+[1674.72 --> 1681.12]  bin sh on dbian systems which is like super minimal it has barely anything like most bash code will not run
+[1681.12 --> 1689.56]  on it um and then zh zsh actually came from ksh and they have their own weird bizarre features um that many
+[1689.56 --> 1694.46]  people probably don't know about for instance arrays and zsh are index starting at one not zero
+[1694.46 --> 1700.00]  so i can't really rely on that yeah i know they they thought it was a really cool feature that's
+[1700.00 --> 1705.80]  stupid sorry yeah i know yeah but uh yeah the kind of way to get into that the more you have to like
+[1705.80 --> 1710.72]  sit there and actually test and ponder and that's actually the other thing is i was really super
+[1710.72 --> 1717.04]  aggressive about unit testing shell scripts and it always seems like when you when new languages
+[1717.04 --> 1724.40]  come about that don't have like test suites or people kind of like misinterpret the language or
+[1724.40 --> 1729.32]  like i don't know they think it's really simple they always like say oh we don't need a test why
+[1729.32 --> 1734.72]  would you test that just just run it from the command line yeah you don't need unit tests here
+[1734.72 --> 1739.36]  and people said this for like javascript when it was first starting out when like you know most code was
+[1739.36 --> 1745.22]  just like three functions and then they also said about bash script but then once the testing tools get
+[1745.22 --> 1751.98]  developed and people get you know used to them it really does help and that helped uh kill a lot
+[1751.98 --> 1758.50]  of bugs and actually it was really cool because a lot of the other people who developed their own
+[1758.50 --> 1764.52]  ruby switchers uh came in and started like uh suggesting features and you know how to solve
+[1764.52 --> 1770.74]  various implement the auto switching so we actually were discussing this in issues by sending submitting
+[1770.74 --> 1777.02]  pull requests for example unit tests so we really were just like speaking using the test as the
+[1777.02 --> 1781.94]  implementation and so that's really cool to see uh instead of like you know getting these long-winded
+[1781.94 --> 1788.04]  discussions and issues and we could just be like here's the code yeah and i can imagine that like
+[1788.04 --> 1792.30]  looking through pull requests you know kind of as an aside here looking through pull requests and stuff
+[1792.30 --> 1799.64]  for shell can kind of be kind of a disaster right somebody like submits all this code like yeah you
+[1799.64 --> 1805.58]  have to understand it and like yeah everyone has their own weird styles yeah there is although um shell
+[1805.58 --> 1813.52]  scripting does it's probably even more style obsessed than ruby is uh there's this one user who uh
+[1813.52 --> 1819.10]  contributed came in and basically just like submit submitted this giant pull request that broke all the
+[1819.10 --> 1823.54]  test and he's basically trying to rewrite it from scratch and like it's like whoa slow down let's
+[1823.54 --> 1830.62]  take this one step at a time and basically kind of like he got me to um fix all the style issues
+[1830.62 --> 1835.48]  and wow like for instance there's like very hardcore these style issues are not just like
+[1835.48 --> 1840.14]  you're supposed to do it because it looks nice but there's actually safety reasons behind it
+[1840.14 --> 1845.14]  for instance most people uh when they start doing shell script they always see uppercase uh variables
+[1845.14 --> 1852.08]  so they just assume all variables are uppercase but all script local variables all function local
+[1852.08 --> 1857.72]  variables are supposed to be lowercase so they don't overshadow the other global variables that
+[1857.72 --> 1863.50]  are passed in as an environment variables quote um yeah so that's kind of like one of the major
+[1863.50 --> 1869.36]  things we had to change and yeah there's other stuff that's crazy so awesome have you had any other
+[1869.36 --> 1874.90]  projects that have gotten as popular in the open source community as these geez um
+[1874.90 --> 1879.34]  trying to think here
+[1879.34 --> 1889.90]  maybe maybe bundler audits that's that's probably it um or actually there's another um library i did where
+[1889.90 --> 1896.28]  after ruby 1.9 came out ruby zip was kind of unmaintained for a long time it didn't work
+[1896.28 --> 1901.18]  and so i just got frustrated and forked it and you know tried to get it working in 1.9
+[1901.18 --> 1905.68]  and released kind of another gem and apparently that got a lot of downloads because a lot of
+[1905.68 --> 1910.74]  people are just like i just need this library to freaking work yeah well the reason i ask is because
+[1910.74 --> 1915.46]  you know you're we were talking about like ctfs before the show and just like your attitude um
+[1915.46 --> 1923.92]  seems you know you go by an alias and so it seems like privacy is a important thing to you i mean you're
+[1923.92 --> 1928.78]  into security and all that so i wonder like was there any implications for you of like just getting
+[1928.78 --> 1935.34]  popular like and getting like notoriety and getting pointed at for a lot of stuff well um i'm very
+[1935.34 --> 1942.08]  like i've always been very anti-celebrity anti kind of cult of personality um coming from like the
+[1942.08 --> 1948.96]  security hacking world uh it's it's a huge problem um like there's like you there's like you go through
+[1948.96 --> 1954.52]  cycles where like someone will rise to fame and they'll be speaking at every conference and usually
+[1954.52 --> 1962.16]  uh often recycling their you know previous talk and um and kind of that that community has developed
+[1962.16 --> 1968.20]  this huge kind of like immune response to that where if you're not putting out um actual useful
+[1968.20 --> 1974.76]  information new information new research um they quickly kind of like forget about you and sort of
+[1974.76 --> 1979.62]  just like whatever like if you're just sort of being a thought leader uh you're not really as valued as
+[1979.62 --> 1985.58]  much as someone who's actually doing like really useful work so yeah i guess um i'm very cognizant
+[1985.58 --> 1991.50]  about not doing not doing that and one of the things i make sure to do is always give credits to
+[1991.50 --> 1999.84]  the contributors and i also got a shout out for um uh the user havenwood on github has been a huge help
+[1999.84 --> 2006.92]  in maintaining uh ch ruby has helped with uh always submitting um the homebrew uh rest updated homebrew
+[2006.92 --> 2012.14]  recipes to homebrew and testing things on osx because i don't have an osx system currently so
+[2012.14 --> 2019.20]  and it's like huge help so it's just not me being all like i'm not super genius here developing it like
+[2019.20 --> 2025.28]  in a vacuum uh no yeah actually that's one thing that that kind of struck me as surprising is that
+[2025.28 --> 2031.14]  ch ruby has 30 contributors on github um so obviously there's a number of contributors that actually
+[2031.14 --> 2035.92]  probably not obviously but i would assume there's a number of them that have not actually uh you know
+[2035.92 --> 2040.08]  contributed to the shell scripts themselves but to other things around them but but it's still i
+[2040.08 --> 2044.26]  mean like it's 90 lines of code in the shell script and you have 30 contributors it's like that's a
+[2044.26 --> 2048.66]  pretty big ratio and i think that's neat i think that's cool to see so many people like pitch in and
+[2048.66 --> 2052.62]  help on different angles and you said like with the homebrew and you probably have people that have
+[2052.62 --> 2056.38]  just updated the readme but people care about this and what you're doing and that seems pretty cool
+[2056.38 --> 2062.00]  and also i think what came out of it was i wrote a generic make file because i was kind of annoyed
+[2062.00 --> 2068.14]  of how all these shell script projects either they had this really simple install.sh file or they like
+[2068.14 --> 2072.92]  you know you curl down and install script i just really wanted a simple make file they just installed
+[2072.92 --> 2078.72]  worked on bsd and linux and like because there's issues with the version of make on bsd and linux uh
+[2078.72 --> 2084.54]  the gene you make versus the bsd make and so a lot of those like there's like i guess you have a lot of
+[2084.54 --> 2088.90]  casual contributors and they fix kind of the minor things i think that's really also important open
+[2088.90 --> 2094.92]  source too um if you see a minor bug you should probably at least report it or fix it um because
+[2094.92 --> 2101.60]  every little fix counts it does add up and even if it's like typos in the readme or you know this is
+[2101.60 --> 2106.42]  a jumping forward but just on the i hate to put a lot on me because i don't like to do that whatsoever
+[2106.42 --> 2114.30]  but you know you talk about little fixes that had a little fix in your public uh ronin um which was
+[2114.30 --> 2118.86]  like because i was doing some research for the call and i was like oh this link is off but the
+[2118.86 --> 2124.10]  coolest thing about github is that let me easily click edit fix the link for you and submit a pull
+[2124.10 --> 2130.10]  request you know in a couple clicks and you know steve kladnik had an awesome post on the changelog
+[2130.10 --> 2134.08]  i think about a year and a half back that still gets tons and tons of reads we'll link out to in the
+[2134.08 --> 2139.44]  show notes if you're listening to this but you know like he had said all those little fixes 30 contributors
+[2139.44 --> 2144.78]  they may not have done the heavy lifting but they're they're keeping a line on the edges you
+[2144.78 --> 2150.92]  know that that you forget or you miss it's sort of the uh long tail yeah long tail principle where
+[2150.92 --> 2156.06]  the casual contributors do actually add up over time and it's also kind of minor things do actually turn
+[2156.06 --> 2161.44]  away a lot of potential users and so that's kind of when you do release code you have to be kind of
+[2161.44 --> 2167.30]  ocd about that um if you see a typo in the readme they're probably gonna like they're gonna be biased
+[2167.30 --> 2172.00]  automatically against the against the project um but yeah the funny thing about that typo was
+[2172.00 --> 2181.18]  uh when github changed to all the user pages to like github io um i have this git alias get said
+[2181.18 --> 2187.44]  so i can actually do mass find replaces and i end up breaking the url on every single page and so
+[2187.44 --> 2194.02]  i had to undo that yeah i'm sure that was fun to fix so good really easy using get said but well
+[2194.02 --> 2198.18]  it was a noise yeah i literally changed two characters which was awesome
+[2198.18 --> 2206.02]  so going then to ronin i think ronin uh look at through all the projects that were listed i think
+[2206.02 --> 2211.86]  ronin was the probably the first one uh well not the first one but one of the bigger ones that i've
+[2211.86 --> 2215.54]  heard about um from you so why don't you talk a little bit about ronin and what it is and what's
+[2215.54 --> 2221.84]  the purpose oh yeah so uh back in the day i was working in a computer security research group uh we had
+[2221.84 --> 2227.14]  this project um well i mean i was like thinking like well uh you know ruby is a really great
+[2227.14 --> 2232.18]  language for doing dsls uh there's already like you know you could think of rails as kind of a
+[2232.18 --> 2236.74]  dsl framework uh for doing web development because they kind of wrap everything up and
+[2236.74 --> 2242.40]  nice helper methods and so it like it abstracts away a lot of the complexities like i'm talking
+[2242.40 --> 2249.14]  like rails 2 old school um now it's really complex these days but uh so i kind of thought like
+[2249.14 --> 2253.04]  well hey this ruby language might be pretty useful uh because like i was looking at the
+[2253.04 --> 2258.80]  documentation for instance they have like a telnet module and it's really nice we can use the blocks
+[2258.80 --> 2263.98]  to automatically set up the telnet session handle it and tear it down so i was like wow this can
+[2263.98 --> 2269.14]  actually be pretty useful for writing exploits because exploits really aren't that complex code
+[2269.14 --> 2275.90]  wise and you could also then write a lot of the helper methods and make everything basically one
+[2275.90 --> 2281.34]  basically doable in one line of code where you just string together the helper methods
+[2281.34 --> 2287.22]  and so that was kind of my um my project with ronin was to create an environments
+[2287.22 --> 2292.64]  uh with kind of like active support type library called run support that provided all the helper
+[2292.64 --> 2297.64]  methods which are called convenience methods uh for various things that like security research need to
+[2297.64 --> 2304.34]  like all the time and then provide kind of a main kind of console environments and then a system for
+[2304.34 --> 2310.04]  installing repositories of other people's code um because you know back back within people are
+[2310.04 --> 2316.84]  still using ruby gems dot ruby forge dot org to distribute so it's a lot easier um for your kind
+[2316.84 --> 2322.14]  of average security researcher who isn't really like a top level developer they're that's not what
+[2322.14 --> 2327.22]  they're after they're like trying to do research and break things and find cool vulnerabilities and so
+[2327.22 --> 2332.12]  it was kind of a lot easier in my mind it's like basically just have a repository system they can give
+[2332.12 --> 2338.80]  a url and it'll pull down some svn or a git or whatever um directory of their code and
+[2338.80 --> 2344.08]  pull it all together but yeah it's kind of one of my big one of my first big projects and that
+[2344.08 --> 2351.38]  spawned a lot of different other libraries and gems and then because like a lot of code got pulled out of
+[2351.38 --> 2357.34]  it as it kind of matured um so a lot of useful code kind of got split out of that so and i was kind of
+[2357.34 --> 2364.36]  following the uh the model that data mapper uh followed that's basically they split everything up into
+[2364.36 --> 2371.62]  uh smaller amounts smaller libraries over time and so i was kind of like doing that but um
+[2371.62 --> 2377.36]  yeah so i kind of got caught up in work and so i like kind of like put ron more to the to the side
+[2377.36 --> 2382.04]  but now i'm sort of like thinking about how things have changed and definitely want to get back on the
+[2382.04 --> 2388.98]  project and simplify some various things so you do plan to get back into ronin that's oh yeah yeah
+[2388.98 --> 2394.46]  gotcha there's a lot of unfinished code in there gotcha so this is an interesting i i think this is
+[2394.46 --> 2399.06]  interesting to me because you were kind of doing security research with ruby four years ago and
+[2399.06 --> 2407.10]  the amount that ruby has changed in the last four years or you know in the last x years uh
+[2407.10 --> 2411.86]  i mean you've had to keep up with a lot of change so what has the process been like maintained i think
+[2411.86 --> 2417.28]  this might be one of the oldest uh actual like uh projects that is still maintained that we've
+[2417.28 --> 2422.94]  actually had on the show what's that been like oh yeah well i mean there's those periods of rapid
+[2422.94 --> 2428.12]  growth in the ruby community where we had things like uh you know we switched uh we switched
+[2428.12 --> 2433.64]  jeweler and then we switched off jeweler and then we had bundler and then we kind of like
+[2433.64 --> 2438.14]  there's all these kind of evolution of tools and so it's kind of really difficult to keep up and we
+[2438.14 --> 2444.20]  you know we went we transitioned from ruby forge to ruby gems uh then rvm came along so it's kind of
+[2444.20 --> 2449.92]  difficult to keep up all these tools and actually found myself kind of like gradually moving away from
+[2449.92 --> 2456.32]  the tools or not just like it seemed like when any of these tools came out we everyone just sort of
+[2456.32 --> 2461.96]  like we must use this everywhere possible all the time irregardless and i kind of found myself that
+[2461.96 --> 2468.72]  it's really not that necessary for instance if your library has like one or two dependencies and
+[2468.72 --> 2474.10]  they're probably installed anyways like the json gem or rake you probably don't you don't need bundler
+[2474.10 --> 2481.68]  and um so yeah i'm like and also kind of developing these tools that these libraries they were kind of
+[2481.68 --> 2486.40]  my like personal playground and so i did kind of like develop tools based out of that because i got
+[2486.40 --> 2493.96]  tired of like having to always edit the read me that was generated by jeweler or or by hoe or by uh
+[2493.96 --> 2498.96]  bundler i just wanted to like project set up automatically with like rspec and all that stuff
+[2498.96 --> 2506.82]  and so i kind of wrote like a uh or which is like a project skeletoning tool and says it has been a bumpy
+[2506.82 --> 2512.54]  road and it's especially annoying when there's like issues with ruby upstream um like kind of the
+[2512.54 --> 2519.32]  major like whatever like open ssl would break things or um but at the same time it has been nice where we
+[2519.32 --> 2524.44]  did develop tools to deal with that's where i for instance like a long time i just always recommend
+[2524.44 --> 2531.18]  people to install rvm first and then you know before installing ronin and like install the latest version
+[2531.18 --> 2537.32]  but at the same time i kind of felt like you know we were moving a little too quickly and maybe it
+[2537.32 --> 2542.48]  would have been a little better to sit back and kind of like reevaluate what what our actual needs
+[2542.48 --> 2549.16]  are because like for instance the same thing with how um rbm kind of um inherits a lot of the features
+[2549.16 --> 2556.96]  and like uh ways of doing things from rvm you kind of also saw that in bundler about how bundler
+[2556.96 --> 2564.76]  basically also developed its own little static project generation tool and which like was basically
+[2564.76 --> 2571.84]  constantly being changed and updated and because it's really hard to get get rights first um because
+[2571.84 --> 2578.90]  everyone has like little nitpicky uh changes to like how they want projects generated and um or it also
+[2578.90 --> 2584.28]  has like you know it embeds their own release tasks which are kind of like crummy they don't they
+[2584.28 --> 2590.40]  don't use proper rake file tasks and so you know like always rebuild your gem irregardlessly of even
+[2590.40 --> 2595.62]  if no files have changed so i kind of felt like uh you know maybe a little better to actually like
+[2595.62 --> 2601.06]  slow down and kind of like take stock of things uh so i'm just constantly racing around trying to
+[2601.06 --> 2610.00]  release versions all the time yeah so one thing i wanted to to kind of bring up the we forgot to talk
+[2610.00 --> 2614.50]  about this before actually um with ch gems and and sorry to kind of do a huge context switch here
+[2614.50 --> 2620.70]  uh we actually didn't talk about ch gems can you just give me a just uh kind of introduce what ch
+[2620.70 --> 2626.30]  gems is real quick and i have a question about it for you so ch gems was sort of my attempt to kind
+[2626.30 --> 2631.96]  of rethink gem sets because one of the kind of assumptions that go along with gem sets is they're
+[2631.96 --> 2639.00]  always named and they always are stored in your dot gem directory wherever that is and i kind of want
+[2639.00 --> 2644.56]  and then also they had to be implicitly uh like auto switched so which kind of did make sense
+[2644.56 --> 2651.94]  because the majority of the time like you would have this like rvm gem set file and it would have
+[2651.94 --> 2657.08]  a name in it and would use that gem set when you cd'd into the directory it would then activate the
+[2657.08 --> 2662.34]  gem set and i kind of thought that this was like first of all like uh it didn't feel too comfortable
+[2662.34 --> 2667.08]  of having like this automatic feature and i didn't really agree if always having the gem sets in
+[2667.08 --> 2672.90]  and your home directory is like why not just put the gem set in the actual project directory
+[2672.90 --> 2680.44]  in the same way that uh you know you can do uh bundler install and put everything in vendor gems
+[2680.44 --> 2686.22]  and then i kind of decide well let's take a different approach because there's like apparently also a lot
+[2686.22 --> 2692.52]  of people wrote their own kind of gem set replacement scripts there's like oh my gems there's is it rev
+[2692.52 --> 2700.16]  that's one version and uh also it was a gs gem switcher and i basically just wanted to make
+[2700.16 --> 2705.08]  something that instead of you actually have to like enter into a gem set and then leave because
+[2705.08 --> 2709.90]  i always would find myself when using rvm gem sets forgetting that i was still in that gem set
+[2709.90 --> 2715.28]  and being like oh hey that's that's why half my gems are missing yeah then you install a bunch of
+[2715.28 --> 2719.20]  gems to the wrong gem set and get all pissed off and you have to clean it up right and like we're just
+[2719.20 --> 2723.60]  like you forget about it you've made it for a project that like you know you wanted to make a
+[2723.60 --> 2728.42]  couple line fixes to this like huge project that had zillions of dependencies and so you want to like
+[2728.42 --> 2733.94]  isolate it some gem gem set and then you forget about it and like you don't remember it when you're
+[2733.94 --> 2739.18]  like going around cleaning up your home directory wondering why you don't have any space left um
+[2739.18 --> 2746.22]  yeah so i kind of like took the approach of uh ch root where you can uh basically explicitly
+[2746.22 --> 2752.94]  enter into a project and then that starts a or like a system image and then it starts a subshell
+[2752.94 --> 2757.50]  within that system directory and makes that the current route and it's kind of nice because you
+[2757.50 --> 2763.44]  can basically exit out of the shell and you go back to your previous uh environments your previous
+[2763.44 --> 2769.04]  system so i kind of felt that that was a really good model um basically explicitly like go into a
+[2769.04 --> 2775.76]  project and then leave um but yeah there's actually some problems in rows with that and um
+[2775.76 --> 2782.88]  because the way that ch ruby auto switching was expected to work uh people who use tmux for instance
+[2782.88 --> 2791.20]  when they opened a uh split pane or another split terminal it didn't properly initialize or inherit the um
+[2791.20 --> 2798.12]  the shell environments from the other terminal and so basically a lot of ch ruby i mean uh tmux users
+[2798.12 --> 2809.16]  um requested that ch ruby always auto uh set the ruby version on on new subshells so uh so i had to
+[2809.16 --> 2815.96]  make that change and that kind of ended up uh conflicting with ch gems because ch gems uh spawns a subshell
+[2815.96 --> 2823.72]  and so there's kind of this weird kind of like race condition where um ch gems basically sets the gem home and
+[2823.72 --> 2832.44]  gem path and then passes that to the uh subshell uh process and then when the subshell initializes uh
+[2832.44 --> 2839.16]  basically then ch ruby loads and then it resets the gem home and gem path and so it's like it's
+[2839.16 --> 2845.88]  it's a dicey kind of uh way to deal with it without coupling the tool the two uh tools together where right
+[2845.88 --> 2851.88]  i didn't want to like have some sort of like flag of like you know do not reload ch ruby you know
+[2851.88 --> 2856.56]  that would feel like a little too much coupling even though if even though if it was just one
+[2856.56 --> 2863.38]  variable but like yeah yeah let's pause the show for just a minute give a shout out to our sponsors
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+[2946.46 --> 2953.72]  newrelic.com slash the changelog so it surprised me i don't know like i don't and i'm not really
+[2953.72 --> 2959.34]  even necessarily sure why it surprised me but it surprised me that ch gems even exists in the first place
+[2959.34 --> 2965.56]  yeah um it would be kind of nice if uh either this functionality was kind of like baked into
+[2965.56 --> 2972.20]  ruby gems itself or uh which it actually you can do i mean literally just set gem home to some path and
+[2972.20 --> 2980.82]  there you go uh just it's also the making sure that um the bin directory of the gem dur is uh you know
+[2980.82 --> 2985.80]  takes precedence in the on the path so any serve executable in there you can just run and it'll go to
+[2985.80 --> 2992.02]  that one and uh yeah and like that's another thing also kind of wish that uh bundler would kind of
+[2992.02 --> 2997.90]  invest time into doing is provide some sort of shell script you can load that will automatically uh
+[2997.90 --> 3004.06]  kind of like detect the bin stubs and put those in the path or use set up aliases or something
+[3004.06 --> 3009.56]  just so you wouldn't have to bundle exec every time yeah or install or clutter your bin directory
+[3009.56 --> 3015.52]  with bin stubs and like which can actually clobber existing files in there which is kind of annoying
+[3015.52 --> 3022.36]  super annoying yeah and yeah so that was kind of like my kind of like trying to answer that but of
+[3022.36 --> 3029.10]  course like it is kind of a difficult problem so is there a definitive blog post or write-up that
+[3029.10 --> 3036.78]  kind of prescribes how to use uh ch ruby ruby install and ch gems just for i mean we got a lot of
+[3036.78 --> 3042.80]  new listeners to the show that are just getting started and we have a lot of very seasoned developers
+[3042.80 --> 3048.90]  also using it so we kind of have both chasms um and i'm not sure if i've ever seen a full write-up of
+[3048.90 --> 3053.14]  like here's why you and i know you're kind of on the show to talk about it a little bit but here's why
+[3053.14 --> 3058.36]  i did it here's you know why you should use it and here's the implications of using it these you know
+[3058.36 --> 3064.58]  these several tools together is there a write-up that's just like clear as day so there's actually lots
+[3064.58 --> 3069.66]  of write-ups um and i kind of let users write their own uh this is kind of the first usually
+[3069.66 --> 3076.06]  um previous projects i'd always kind of like naively uh kind of put together this project and you know
+[3076.06 --> 3081.32]  think like boy people are gonna love this and then i post it to reddit and then it just gets eviscerated
+[3081.32 --> 3086.90]  yeah oops yeah and it's basically kind of like that whole uh i feel like some some of the some of the
+[3086.90 --> 3090.98]  criticism is valid but i think a lot of people um like they kind of use that as a way to like
+[3090.98 --> 3097.56]  pump themselves up of like kind of criticizing other projects that initial criticism can actually
+[3097.56 --> 3102.94]  hinder the project and hold you back and so i literally just did word of mouth marketing kind
+[3102.94 --> 3107.92]  of i just recommended it like hey here's this thing check it out you know you you make your up make your
+[3107.92 --> 3114.08]  own uh decision on it so uh users have actually wrote up a lot of different blog posts about uh their
+[3114.08 --> 3120.38]  experiences um so literally you could just google for like chruby and you'll find a dozen or so blog
+[3120.38 --> 3125.74]  blog posts and a couple actually in japanese and spanish which is kind of cool um so we're
+[3125.74 --> 3131.70]  crossing that language barrier and yeah it's kind of give the basic rundown of like here's how i set
+[3131.70 --> 3136.08]  it up here's you know here's how you switch rubies here's how you install them and here's kind of caveats
+[3136.08 --> 3143.96]  and like yeah because i know one thing that i've always gotten held up on was always having coming
+[3143.96 --> 3151.98]  from you know rvm to chruby i you know kind of depended on gem sets and i've um i've you know
+[3151.98 --> 3156.50]  with bundler and the way it handles things i've kind of gotten rid of gem sets i don't use it anymore
+[3156.50 --> 3163.58]  obviously i don't use ch gems yet and i haven't really had a need for it but i i find myself um only
+[3163.58 --> 3172.28]  here and there having conflicts um and is that in maybe maybe i don't do enough with ruby to
+[3172.28 --> 3178.16]  understand why someone would want to obviously isolate their their gem into a their gem you know
+[3178.16 --> 3185.06]  gems for a project into a gem set but most often the reason you know clearly is for you know just
+[3185.06 --> 3190.08]  the fact that you don't have any any bumps there's clear isolation from other projects
+[3190.08 --> 3197.04]  yeah and also you're using environment variables to achieve this and so you don't have a lot of the
+[3197.04 --> 3204.00]  magic quote-unquote that uh bundler does to ensure that it isolates all the dependencies right and but
+[3204.00 --> 3208.88]  i mean there you shouldn't you should be able to like get away with just uh migrating gem set projects
+[3208.88 --> 3216.36]  to using uh bundler and uh kind of like sharing gems that way uh of course you can also just directly
+[3216.36 --> 3223.06]  edit the path and gem home and gem path environment variables and set your gem set that that way and
+[3223.06 --> 3229.10]  you just have to then ensure that every time that uh project is ran it's ran in a shell that loads up
+[3229.10 --> 3236.92]  the configuration and um yeah so yeah actually i've been thinking about like uh there's this tool that
+[3236.92 --> 3243.26]  someone wrote uh called rev which allows you to kind of like add you know set and uh reset gem sets
+[3243.26 --> 3248.10]  and i thought it'd be kind of interesting if someone actually wrote a tool that basically just
+[3248.10 --> 3254.28]  pushed and popped uh directories on the gem path and then uh set gem home accordingly and that would
+[3254.28 --> 3261.02]  allow you to actually like more fine-grained control of the gem gem directory kind of like search uh
+[3261.02 --> 3266.22]  search variable the order in which it you know checks all the directories for the for all your gems
+[3266.22 --> 3271.78]  and so i kind of felt like you know that'd be kind of interesting uh way to do it but really i mean
+[3271.78 --> 3279.26]  it seems like there's a lot of confusion about how gem sets work ideally and a lot of people are trying
+[3279.26 --> 3283.90]  to kind of like reinvent them and explore different areas and so it's not kind of really a solved problem
+[3283.90 --> 3289.80]  yet yeah mind does that answer it yeah i mean it's i mean like you said it's a tough problem to solve
+[3289.80 --> 3295.66]  anyways and i don't think there's really a one way to do it but i you know i now don't even depend at all
+[3295.66 --> 3300.52]  on obviously gem sets but i kind of miss them because i have had some conflicts then i end up
+[3300.52 --> 3304.76]  doing something that andrew kind of mentioned earlier which is like obliterate all my gems which
+[3304.76 --> 3312.96]  i have just uh um i am happy to be a zsh user so i just type uh fo and up a couple times and i find
+[3312.96 --> 3318.16]  the most recent for loop that i've written you know that basically obliterates all my you know all my
+[3318.16 --> 3322.74]  gems installed and i just because they're so easy to install and it probably even upticks the numbers
+[3322.74 --> 3329.02]  of installs anyways i just obliterate all my gems and just you know bundle install and i'm good to go
+[3329.02 --> 3333.14]  in happy world but you know so that's okay with me but it still feels a little dirty you know it feels
+[3333.14 --> 3338.74]  dirty to not have that segregation yeah yeah and plus you know the fact that the default behavior of
+[3338.74 --> 3343.70]  bundlers to install into the gem directory as opposed to like installing always into a vendor directory
+[3343.70 --> 3349.04]  and kind of like you get that trade-off where it's like well i can clutter up my gem directory or you
+[3349.04 --> 3353.46]  know i can blow it up the vendor directory so this might elongate the conversation a tiny bit further
+[3353.46 --> 3360.96]  but you know it's it's it's uh impossible to kind of um miss the millions of dollars recently that npm
+[3360.96 --> 3366.94]  has gotten to become npm inc and you've got other package managers they come up to play like what is
+[3366.94 --> 3373.52]  is ruby playing catch up is there something new out there that's being done by npm and bauer and other
+[3373.52 --> 3379.02]  package managers that simplify the way they're distributing and versioning for individual projects
+[3379.02 --> 3386.62]  well um actually i haven't looked at npm yet i actually should do that but uh one of the
+[3386.62 --> 3393.60]  things that is really interesting to me is haskell's package manager uh cabal and it apparently has its
+[3393.60 --> 3399.32]  own concept of sandboxes and so and also what i really like about cabal is the fact that the
+[3399.32 --> 3408.42]  specification for your project is literally um key value colon separated plain text and so we don't
+[3408.42 --> 3414.92]  have this like crazy uh uh you know pure ruby gem spec which is really kind of like gem spec was
+[3414.92 --> 3420.66]  originally kind of designed for internal usage of you know describing the gem and we turned it into
+[3420.66 --> 3427.04]  this thing where we could actually uh because ruby gems uh it's faster for it to load actual ruby code
+[3427.04 --> 3433.56]  as opposed to deserializing it so when you actually install a gem it uh unpacks the actual gem spec back
+[3433.56 --> 3440.12]  into pure ruby and i guess this kind of gave people the idea of like well let's just put this gem spec in
+[3440.12 --> 3445.48]  into the actual git repository for projects and we'll have it list you know you use git ls files
+[3445.48 --> 3451.56]  but i kind of feel that like violates dry uh that we have this like random bit of code that we constantly
+[3451.56 --> 3457.74]  regenerates and it has this like you know git commands embedded into it i kind of like the fact that
+[3457.74 --> 3463.88]  like cabal uh hides a lot of that from you and what i actually do for a lot of my projects is i put all
+[3463.88 --> 3469.44]  the metadata into a gem spec yaml file and then my gem spec is basically just boilerplate code that loads
+[3469.44 --> 3477.80]  that file and sets all the fields um and also like cabal i mean cabal and haskell's ghc compiler uh
+[3477.80 --> 3482.44]  has a really really kind of like advanced dependency tracking system where it can actually recompile code
+[3482.44 --> 3487.52]  that you know if it detects some change somewhere so really interesting yeah i mean
+[3487.52 --> 3494.38]  you mentioned you haven't looked into mpm much but one of the ways it does um package installation is
+[3494.38 --> 3501.36]  you can pass it a fly to say um you know save to local basically so it's dash dash save or you can
+[3501.36 --> 3509.72]  add a dash dash save dash dev onto it and it and it actually uh will either go global if you don't do
+[3509.72 --> 3515.86]  dash save i think you might have to pass the flag dash g to it uh possibly so let me correct me if i'm
+[3515.86 --> 3522.82]  wrong but but then it also just drops into your project um most often hidden if you're hiding it
+[3522.82 --> 3527.62]  with your editor you know with your id or just sublime text whatever you use but then it drops it
+[3527.62 --> 3532.56]  on to no modules and from there you have them locally with your project and that way you kind
+[3532.56 --> 3538.48]  of don't have this gem set need you almost just have your project and you either save locally or you
+[3538.48 --> 3543.66]  don't you just either install globally or install locally and it just pulls the version that way
+[3543.66 --> 3549.38]  it's a i mean so far i've you know kind of been dabbling in some javascript development and it's been
+[3549.38 --> 3554.10]  coming from the ruby world into that world i've saw kind of both sides of the fence and it's
+[3554.10 --> 3560.86]  it's neat the way they handle it and no conflicts yet so it's yeah i don't quite have the job you do of
+[3560.86 --> 3564.80]  maintaining this project and the and the dependencies it has against it but
+[3564.80 --> 3570.46]  that kind of neat the way they do it oh yeah totally um yeah i definitely feel like kind of the
+[3570.46 --> 3577.40]  uh challenges uh that ruby switchers have to deal with is kind of uh dealing with the environment
+[3577.40 --> 3583.78]  variables that you use to then manipulate um how ruby gems operates and sometimes it would kind of be
+[3583.78 --> 3589.48]  nice if if it did automatically detect uh gem direct dot gem directories and that's just how it
+[3589.48 --> 3595.12]  works but of course there's like security issues with you know running into malicious gem gem
+[3595.12 --> 3601.78]  directories and yeah you've got a security background so you're you're thinking not only how do you use
+[3601.78 --> 3607.50]  it as a developer but how do you securely use it as a developer right right you know because you know
+[3607.50 --> 3613.32]  we pull down tons of code every day off of trusted you know right yes quote unquote trusted and like
+[3613.32 --> 3618.78]  it'd be very trivial for someone to have like um like for a lot of those tools that automatically load
+[3618.78 --> 3623.82]  environment variables uh when you cd into the directory and you could totally convince someone
+[3623.82 --> 3630.10]  to do that and like you would have some sort of a way to you know uh manipulate the path where you
+[3630.10 --> 3635.54]  can actually redirect to it and like you know so instead of typing ls and using system ls it all of a
+[3635.54 --> 3641.68]  sudden you know using their weird backdoored ls or alias version yeah right so that's kind of yeah
+[3641.68 --> 3648.16]  so not to uh hijack the conversation too much but we are kind of running up against our our time limit
+[3648.16 --> 3653.78]  here so i want to uh go ahead and ask our our standard set of questions for your postmodern if
+[3653.78 --> 3658.66]  if you're okay with that um the the first one is for a call to arms or a call to action for
+[3658.66 --> 3664.48]  uh the open source community on any any of the projects that we've talked about okay so um i
+[3664.48 --> 3668.68]  actually been thinking about writing a blog post about this but it's probably better just to put it
+[3668.68 --> 3675.80]  into words here uh so this is like super super radical thing to say but you do not need a ruby
+[3675.80 --> 3682.56]  manager or switcher in production if you only have one ruby and this is just something that people
+[3682.56 --> 3687.78]  i don't not necessarily the word cargo cults i think applies but we just have gotten used to doing it
+[3687.78 --> 3693.70]  and then that's just how we do it and it's baked into all these configuration management tools like
+[3693.70 --> 3701.04]  chef and puppets and you just don't first of all the package managers ruby is usually roughly up to
+[3701.04 --> 3706.80]  dates um the latest version of ubuntu available on amazon uh it's it's recently up to i think it's
+[3706.80 --> 3712.82]  193 still but they're they're going to bump that to 20 and of course there's like still gc issues with
+[3712.82 --> 3719.70]  mri 2.1 and even if your system and the benefit of using the package manager is you can enable
+[3719.70 --> 3724.94]  things like unattended upgrades where the package manager will automatically imply security updates
+[3724.94 --> 3729.98]  and just have to restart your processes and that's really nice uh as opposed to actually then
+[3729.98 --> 3735.66]  freaking out at you know 3 a.m in the morning and you know do like doing rvm get ahead and installing
+[3735.66 --> 3742.70]  the latest version to deal with some sort of critical uh security vulnerability and also even if the package
+[3742.70 --> 3748.38]  manager doesn't offer the most up-to-date package you can roll your own packages with fpm you can also
+[3748.38 --> 3754.40]  install the ruby into usr local and that's the purpose of usr local and the whole unix file system
+[3754.40 --> 3761.18]  hierarchy is that it's for all the software that you install that's not installed by the system
+[3761.18 --> 3767.92]  so like usr is controlled by the package manager the administrator controls usr and on most systems
+[3767.92 --> 3775.26]  usr local bin always comes before usr bin in the path and so any software install there overrides
+[3775.26 --> 3782.02]  the system software and like i feel that a lot of people kind of like miss this and i feel like
+[3782.02 --> 3787.68]  setting up a you know production environment shouldn't be that difficult and you just really
+[3787.68 --> 3792.80]  need to like install a package or extract a tar of a pre-compiled ruby and like this is not that
+[3792.80 --> 3799.04]  difficult so yeah i don't know so just just to clarify i believe this is the first time that the
+[3799.04 --> 3805.26]  call to arms from our guests has been to not use their project in production yeah you don't it's it's
+[3805.26 --> 3811.02]  just it adds so much more complexity of making sure it works with all these system components and
+[3811.02 --> 3816.74]  it's really more the ruby switcher is more optimized for developments and you know testing
+[3816.74 --> 3823.84]  things because like seriously it it it just makes it so much easier awesome so the second question if
+[3823.84 --> 3830.52]  you weren't doing what you're doing now what would you be doing oh man um so you mean like open
+[3830.52 --> 3836.44]  source or work wise or well anything surfing or work wise or what what would you do with your free
+[3836.44 --> 3846.34]  time yeah yeah oh man probably uh probably uh probably writing uh like uh various security
+[3846.34 --> 3852.94]  exploitation tools that's uh it's kind of on my list of things to do so which technically i do so i do for
+[3852.94 --> 3859.66]  work but yeah there's a there's a back end to that that uh question too which is like maybe uh
+[3859.66 --> 3863.82]  an open source project out there that you've wanted to hack on but you know you've got
+[3863.82 --> 3868.08]  obviously a list of things you're doing but you haven't had a chance to hack on it what's
+[3868.08 --> 3873.06]  you know what's uh what's something you've seen out there that you wish you had time to hack on that
+[3873.06 --> 3878.20]  you would you don't and you would love to if you had a weekend oh man okay so there's actually a
+[3878.20 --> 3883.50]  couple of projects that i feel that really could use some like extra help and simplifying things
+[3883.50 --> 3888.48]  and kind of like exercising out the really bad ugly code that's kind of built up the technical debt
+[3888.48 --> 3894.02]  and one of the projects i've really loved in recently is padrino um i feel it's a really nice
+[3894.02 --> 3898.54]  layer on top and they they've been doing more than just building on top of sinatra they have their
+[3898.54 --> 3904.64]  own custom router and it feels very structured has that nice really rails to structure feel but without
+[3904.64 --> 3910.26]  all the complexity that now comes with you know default rails and but the law of the code in
+[3910.26 --> 3914.86]  there is kind of messy and i feel like it would kind of benefit from more people kind of looking at it
+[3914.86 --> 3919.58]  and figuring out maybe better ways of handling things because it's a lot of their features are
+[3919.58 --> 3926.68]  built on top of um kind of like sinatra before filters uh conditions sinatra conditions and rack
+[3926.68 --> 3932.20]  middleware and so kind of that there's there's some weird issues for instance when you want to like
+[3932.20 --> 3939.80]  disable csrf protection on like certain routes only so yeah um really awesome project the other one
+[3939.80 --> 3945.90]  also is the rom project ruby object mapper where is that that i've like been waiting for that forever
+[3945.90 --> 3950.82]  i know same here um and basically i've been like always talking with the developers and i'm usually
+[3950.82 --> 3956.84]  very skeptical because uh they kind of tend to take principles to the extreme and this kind of results
+[3956.84 --> 3964.46]  in a lot of kind of like excess code that is more kind of writing the code to uh comply with the
+[3964.46 --> 3971.40]  style checker or the co-complexity scanner or um you know something like that or so i've been going i've
+[3971.40 --> 3976.16]  been slowly going through that project and just sort of like making small pull requests but i kind of
+[3976.16 --> 3980.76]  you know i'm just one person trying to undo complexity and that's usually hard once it's like
+[3980.76 --> 3988.32]  built uh you know yeah rom rom would definitely be on my list of of projects to help with i i i am like
+[3988.32 --> 3994.04]  you i would imagine i like i love using sinatra and data mapper in the past and so like i've been
+[3994.04 --> 4000.22]  waiting for rom for quite a while now oh yeah oh yeah because data mapper one definitely has its warrants
+[4000.22 --> 4005.56]  yep um yeah uh definitely check it out and try to contribute uh they're actually pretty close they
+[4005.56 --> 4013.08]  have read supports but they're they still need to uh get uh write supports uh okay so the i guess the
+[4013.08 --> 4019.08]  last project i'd have to say uh worth checking out is mruby and ruby is really well designed i would
+[4019.08 --> 4025.20]  have to say of kind of embeddable languages i've been i was looking at those a couple years ago and it
+[4025.20 --> 4029.34]  seems like every kind of language that claims to be embeddable is basically more designed to be
+[4029.34 --> 4035.22]  installed onto a system and then loads its additional modules via extra shared libraries
+[4035.22 --> 4041.50]  and mruby is really interesting it has its own little build system that compiles all it's split
+[4041.50 --> 4047.02]  into all of its features are split into what are called mrb gems and then those are all compiled down
+[4047.02 --> 4053.50]  into one single static linked library that you can then embed into other programs and so man it's
+[4053.50 --> 4058.96]  really nice and it's actually pretty decent documentation around it uh but like there's not a lot of
+[4058.96 --> 4063.68]  projects around it so you do have to do kind of your research and tinker around with the code
+[4063.68 --> 4070.12]  but uh it's really well put together and i think it has huge potential and just uh anywhere you could
+[4070.12 --> 4076.16]  put lua uh the embeddable language lua you could probably put mruby and do a lot more because you
+[4076.16 --> 4084.84]  know lua misses it lacks certain things basic things like bitwise operators yeah cool so the last question
+[4084.84 --> 4089.84]  is uh for a programmer hero or just somebody that's been really influential in your life to this point
+[4089.84 --> 4097.78]  oh man um so i try to be really anti-hero because anti-hero worship i feel like it really holds people
+[4097.78 --> 4102.72]  back uh when they're always kind of looking up to someone and instead of some inspiring to you know
+[4102.72 --> 4108.46]  improve themselves and challenge themselves but i definitely have to say like uh as as far as like
+[4108.46 --> 4114.06]  programmer wisdom goes i feel like uh dan cubb who worked on the data mapper project uh
+[4114.06 --> 4124.68]  uh uh piat solnick and then also uh marcus i'm gonna mispronounce his name marcus shriept mbj uh he he
+[4124.68 --> 4131.08]  wrote mutants yeah and uh those people are kind of like the most interesting discussions about like
+[4131.08 --> 4137.24]  design and you know when when principles are taken too far uh when they're not applied like pretty much
+[4137.24 --> 4142.82]  anything solnick writes is like i pretty much agree with it so those are kind of like they're
+[4142.82 --> 4150.10]  they're they're hip cats they know what's up yeah for sure awesome well i wanted to say thanks a lot
+[4150.10 --> 4156.72]  for coming on this show i think that this is a uh i don't know you kind of get the sense with with
+[4156.72 --> 4162.80]  ruby switchers and just with the this world that um we've we've almost gotten as simple as we can get
+[4162.80 --> 4168.10]  but at the same time it feels like we've got a far a long way to go right i mean your call to arms kind
+[4168.10 --> 4175.06]  of sums it up right and that like the goal would ultimately be to not really need these things and
+[4175.06 --> 4180.48]  uh so you know i think that we've got a long way to go here but but i like the uh the simplicity that
+[4180.48 --> 4184.74]  you're aiming for so once again i just want to say thanks a bunch for joining us today it was post
+[4184.74 --> 4191.98]  modern um his uh real name has been redacted and uh no just kidding um but yeah no for sure we will uh
+[4191.98 --> 4197.42]  we'll uh be back next week um so make sure you listen we are going to start doing this weekly
+[4197.42 --> 4203.68]  again um now that everything has started to settle down so back to live too i think we're gonna be uh
+[4203.68 --> 4209.16]  if you're listening to this obviously you are because you're hearing me say this but uh our uh our new date
+[4209.16 --> 4216.80]  is friday live at 10 a.m central standard time um if for some reason we don't have a guest we're just
+[4216.80 --> 4221.54]  gonna get on there anyways and just talk about awesome open source so we're we're aiming for weekly
+[4221.54 --> 4228.58]  live um should be a fun time and a postmodern we've we've uh been playing some email tag for a bit
+[4228.58 --> 4233.56]  too trying to get you on the show and just echo andrew's thoughts too just static static to have you
+[4233.56 --> 4238.46]  on the show uh love the work you're doing in open source and just want to do as much as we can to
+[4238.46 --> 4243.66]  encourage you to keep doing the awesome work that you're doing thanks man it was a fun time being
+[4243.66 --> 4247.70]  on the show and hope to hear more awesome episodes of you guys absolutely go ahead andrew
+[4247.70 --> 4254.04]  uh yeah that's it so until next time we'll just say goodbye bye-bye adios
+[4254.04 --> 4256.70]  you
+[4256.70 --> 4258.70]  you
+[4258.70 --> 4272.70]  you
+[4272.70 --> 4283.70]  you
+[4283.70 --> 4285.70]  you
+[4285.70 --> 4287.70]  you

Tedit, JS-Git, Jack_transcript.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,657 @@
+[0.00 --> 14.70]  welcome back everyone this is the changelog where our member supported blog podcast and
+[14.70 --> 20.24]  weekly email come with fresh and what's new and open source check out the blog at the changelog.com
+[20.24 --> 27.04]  our past shows at five by five dot tv slash changelog and you're listening to episode 124
+[27.04 --> 33.16]  jared and i talked to tim caswell about getting started in open source exploring new frontiers
+[33.16 --> 38.78]  and his project t edit a git based development environment today's show is sponsored by
+[38.78 --> 44.54]  digital ocean top tile and snap ci we'll talk to you a bit more about top tile and snap ci later in
+[44.54 --> 50.14]  the show but our friends at digital ocean are a simple cloud hosting provider built for developers
+[50.14 --> 57.02]  in just 55 seconds you can join over 150 000 developers who deploy to digital ocean's ssd
+[57.02 --> 62.30]  cloud digital ocean offers a fantastic user experience handcrafted by developers
+[62.30 --> 69.92]  enjoy the ease of use and speed of an ssd only cloud create droplets manage your dns build a new
+[69.92 --> 74.76]  server from a snapshot save a ton of time installing rails docker git lab and more with one click
+[74.76 --> 80.68]  installs you can even scale your infrastructure with the intuitive api sign up today and use the
+[80.68 --> 86.98]  code changelog july to get a ten dollar credit when you sign up head to digitalocean.com to get started
+[86.98 --> 88.70]  and now on to the show
+[88.70 --> 97.96]  we're joined today with uh with tim caswell also have the managing editor my sidekick in crime
+[97.96 --> 107.22]  jared santo on the call too so tim and jared say hello hey hello so tim you are uh you're no stranger
+[107.22 --> 111.84]  to the changelog you used to be uh a contributor to the changelog back in the day when we're still on
+[111.84 --> 117.26]  tumblr and as a different changelog probably but still the same mission but uh you've been on the
+[117.26 --> 123.42]  show before uh you started uh how to node and several other things you're prolific and open
+[123.42 --> 128.64]  source you speak at many conferences so you're not a stranger to the world but for those who may be
+[128.64 --> 134.14]  come to this podcast brand new that don't know who you are can you kind of tee up whom tim caswell is
+[134.14 --> 143.46]  okay so i i guess the best way to describe me is i like to invent things i love open source and i love
+[143.46 --> 150.58]  enabling other programmers the a quick background is i programmed in commodores and q basic for a long
+[150.58 --> 156.38]  time without internet without help and i was blocked by limitations of the platform nowadays we have
+[156.38 --> 161.18]  incredible amounts of technology and ability and the main thing blocking people is just they think
+[161.18 --> 166.52]  things aren't possible so i basically spend every free moment i have finding something that is
+[166.52 --> 172.54]  impossible and making it possible so i i author a lot of libraries a lot of infrastructure code
+[172.54 --> 178.72]  and a lot of educational content so pretty much anything related to that i've i've worked a ton with
+[178.72 --> 186.18]  the node.js project since the very beginning in 2009 um i've worked on web os i worked at cloud 9 ide
+[186.18 --> 192.82]  of course we're going to talk about my recent work on the show i've i mean basically i've done web development
+[192.82 --> 198.62]  since there was a web and i like enabling people what do you just i guess pausing on that for a second
+[198.62 --> 202.80]  considering that you've been developing for the web since there has been a web what do you think
+[202.80 --> 208.48]  um what kind of i guess quick advice would you give about open source to some of the newer people
+[208.48 --> 212.86]  that are coming to open source let's say in the last five to six years that's that's still kind of
+[212.86 --> 218.24]  older but new in comparison to your time frame what what do you think has changed i guess to the
+[218.24 --> 225.48]  degree of access to information so yeah i mean first of all there was the internet which made a world of
+[225.48 --> 232.10]  difference and then for a long time it was central systems like w3 schools was actually where i learned
+[232.10 --> 240.16]  a lot of web tech and as much as we make fun of them it was the content i had and so it worked but
+[240.16 --> 248.82]  nowadays we have all sorts of blogs and podcasts and videos and we have better documentation sites
+[248.82 --> 252.58]  microsoft has a good one mozilla has a good one there's lots of stuff out there
+[252.58 --> 256.84]  i mean you can learn from anywhere from individuals to large companies and
+[256.84 --> 263.00]  there's just a ton of stuff as far as learning goes yeah now as far as the community involvement
+[263.00 --> 269.42]  that's where it really gets interesting what i what i tell people is i'm just a guy from a small
+[269.42 --> 277.00]  town in texas i was nobody until i started writing a blog and once i started writing a blog and people
+[277.00 --> 280.46]  found out what i was writing was interesting suddenly i started getting these job offers i
+[280.46 --> 286.92]  ended up in california working for hp and and all sorts of things happened anybody can be successful
+[286.92 --> 291.38]  in web development if they have passion and if they're willing to volunteer a lot of free time
+[291.38 --> 298.66]  into helping open source it pays it pays back hugely i'd like to is and help us navigate that
+[298.66 --> 306.00]  conversation because the you know i guess the word free can scare some people but open source is maybe
+[306.00 --> 311.84]  an easy way to say free um and make it cool i guess at least today like open source is becoming more
+[311.84 --> 317.38]  and more cool uh to be a part of and obviously it has its own gains and benefits which you can definitely
+[317.38 --> 323.52]  allude to but um you know it can be a scary word to say free so open source time definitely giving
+[323.52 --> 328.90]  back to the community plus a lot of what people are jumping into these days are frameworks or platforms
+[328.90 --> 334.92]  that have been you know getting the tires kicked for years by the community and and it's freely
+[334.92 --> 340.54]  accessible to them so why not give back right right yeah i mean some people like to work on frameworks
+[340.54 --> 345.50]  some people are more like me and just want to make things from scratch i mean there there's a place
+[345.50 --> 350.86]  for all types of people in open source communities at which point did you feel like you had like
+[350.86 --> 355.96]  quality content to give back because i think a lot of the the lack of confidence for people just
+[355.96 --> 360.36]  getting started is i have a lot to learn maybe it's a little bit of the imposter syndrome like what
+[360.36 --> 367.68]  could my blog possibly provide to the community that's of value did you have a certain point where
+[367.68 --> 371.86]  you're like you just hit a confidence bump and you're like all right i'm just gonna start writing
+[371.86 --> 377.66]  online and willing to put yourself out there or you know did you do it too late too early what's
+[377.66 --> 385.04]  what's advice for people getting getting to that point um i think i'm i'm not normal in that regard
+[385.04 --> 391.16]  i i mean i started out programming when i was i don't know seven and so by the time i graduated high
+[391.16 --> 396.10]  school i'd already tried and failed at a web startup and i i was pretty i was pretty confident in my
+[396.10 --> 401.48]  abilities probably too confident i look back at that code and i'm like oh my gosh did i actually think
+[401.86 --> 410.50]  code so i didn't have that problem i thought i was really good okay and now as far as the the
+[410.50 --> 417.46]  social aspect i i mean i have mild asperger's and when i was in high school like i would literally be
+[417.46 --> 421.04]  the kid who runs to the front of the school line with my long sleeve winter coat and shorts
+[421.04 --> 425.58]  eat my lunch and then run to the library and read books about building catapults like that was me
+[425.58 --> 432.72]  and then somewhere in there i i changed from that to i joined a sports team got good at swim
+[432.72 --> 438.50]  and then what really helped is i went on a mission for my church where you spend all day going door to
+[438.50 --> 442.72]  door asking people questions about their life and religion now if that won't break you out of your
+[442.72 --> 449.34]  bubble i don't know what will yeah so i mean i don't know so at that point right and your thoughts
+[449.34 --> 455.94]  online was nothing yeah yeah in context i mean i i still get a little stage fright my my first
+[455.94 --> 461.12]  conference talk was in this movie theater in stokholm sweden and i just remember being on stage with
+[461.12 --> 465.38]  spotlights in this room of hundreds of people and i can't see them and it was a little nerve-wracking
+[465.38 --> 474.06]  wow but what what helped me a lot actually was meeting with the dallas rb user group and doing lightning
+[474.06 --> 480.36]  talks and just starting there like that that did wonders i've been to that uh that group once or
+[480.36 --> 487.22]  twice we uh i work at a non-profit called pure charity is my very passionate day job and every
+[487.22 --> 491.98]  once in a while we'd be in dallas hanging out we'd be there with karthik and win and jesse
+[491.98 --> 499.02]  uh whom are probably names you know that go to dallas rb so that's a good meetup too it is they do really
+[499.02 --> 503.72]  well and yeah i mean that helped me that helped ease me in because there's a big step between
+[503.72 --> 508.08]  i'm giving a lightning talk to 10 guys i know and i'm on a stage with hundreds of people in a foreign
+[508.08 --> 516.52]  country so i couldn't imagine that uh stage when i so you know a little confession on my side i i would
+[516.52 --> 522.04]  probably not be very happy at all being in front of that many people with stage lights on me i would
+[522.04 --> 528.40]  probably just rather be in the crowd uh as odd as it might seem running the podcast that's like yeah
+[528.40 --> 532.32]  it's it's easier to be behind the mic in the seclusion of my comfortable office
+[532.32 --> 537.64]  than in front of hundreds and hundreds of people it's just not my place you can you can always edit
+[537.64 --> 543.72]  it too so yes yeah let's to some degree we try to as best we can we try to put this one down from
+[543.72 --> 550.10]  live to tape as as they say in recording but nice so i was gonna say i was doing a lot a lot of
+[550.10 --> 554.34]  javascript nowadays could you take us through your language progression through the years just
+[554.34 --> 560.32]  um sure yeah i don't want to spend too much time on it but basically i did basic for a long time
+[560.32 --> 567.24]  a long long time i did like i said i started on commodore 64 basic which is awesome because that
+[567.24 --> 570.42]  thing had no memory management at all you could just poke random spots of memory and things would
+[570.42 --> 577.56]  happen and then and then i got a dos computer i had this this lovely little 386 with 16 megahertz
+[577.56 --> 584.08]  and 16 megs of ram and i programmed on that thing for about 10 years just that and the q base agreed
+[584.08 --> 592.32]  me was my entire world so like age 7 to 17 ish yeah and then the internet came out yeah exactly
+[592.32 --> 597.72]  and that changed everything i think it's important to mention too just um just from a
+[597.72 --> 603.58]  a passionate standpoint i guess maybe some inspiration or some encouragement is that
+[603.58 --> 610.48]  you uh attacked this passion for programming when there was no information so you had no choice
+[610.48 --> 615.62]  but to hit the brick walls and hit the hurdles and find ways yourself to get over them we live in a
+[615.62 --> 623.20]  world now where if you hit a hurdle you google it you likely land on stack overflow um to some degree
+[623.20 --> 628.82]  maybe somebody's blog or a doc somewhere maybe there's a lot of information accessible to people to get
+[628.82 --> 635.48]  over those hurdles so it's building that confidence i think uh is a lot harder today because you're
+[635.48 --> 641.64]  always second guessing yourself and maybe to some degree could you quickly touch on maybe that for
+[641.64 --> 652.04]  you like gaining confidence on your own okay um i think so there are always unsolved problems i i tend
+[652.04 --> 657.78]  to do things that haven't been done before because that's what interests me and i hit a lot of roadblocks
+[657.78 --> 664.16]  even in today's world i will be for example today i was trying to figure out how to store binary data
+[664.16 --> 671.16]  in safari and a few people have tried this the the lawn chair and pouch tb people have worked on this
+[671.16 --> 677.66]  like yeah you can't do that you got a base 64 encoded and use web sql and crazy stuff or but sometimes
+[677.66 --> 682.32]  i'm on i'm doing things like a chrome packaged app and i'm testing these apis that no one has really
+[682.32 --> 689.16]  used before or the hers used much or the github rest api because i can't do real git protocol to
+[689.16 --> 695.04]  github and i find bugs everywhere i find bugs in chrome i find bugs in github and there's nothing
+[695.04 --> 700.96]  on stack overflow about it because no one's really tried this yet so there's still plenty of frontier
+[700.96 --> 706.24]  out there you just have to do things that haven't been done before so i would imagine you're probably on
+[706.24 --> 712.62]  the uh the happy but yet sad list oh another support request from tim oh he found he found
+[712.62 --> 720.54]  another bug gosh you know i have no idea so since you're an inventor and you like to hit the unknown
+[720.54 --> 726.60]  it probably tees up the what i think is the meat of the conversation so um just to quickly touch on
+[726.60 --> 733.12]  js git git browser t edit or some might call it teddit which was me prior to listening to your super
+[733.12 --> 738.88]  awesome youtube demo of that which blew my mind so i mean how what's the best way to tee up what
+[738.88 --> 744.24]  you've what you're doing now with t edit and the kickstarter you did for js git and the like you said
+[744.24 --> 749.24]  the infrastructure tools you need to actually pull this project off right i'd like to start with the
+[749.24 --> 754.56]  goal and the goal is a very ambitious but but simple goal i want to make programming accessible
+[754.56 --> 762.94]  and what i mean by that is we have all these devices in the world that that kids and teenagers
+[762.94 --> 768.60]  have access to that are consumption devices we have ipads and android tablets and chromebooks and who
+[768.60 --> 773.78]  knows what else maybe you're on a school computer or a library computer or something and it's a
+[773.78 --> 781.08]  lockdown environment but they all have javascript they all have a web platform all of them and so my
+[781.08 --> 788.00]  goal is to build a full professional developer environment with everything with dependency management
+[788.00 --> 793.18]  with build systems with git check-in checkout clone merge all of that to work in this restricted
+[793.18 --> 798.84]  environment and i want to do that so that more people can get into programming without having to
+[798.84 --> 806.94]  go out and buy a macbook pro or a windows pc or something so that's the goal now with that goal
+[806.94 --> 811.46]  there's a whole lot of sub parts i am invented a new language i'm implementing git in javascript i'm making
+[811.46 --> 819.64]  a prototype of this developer environment and so that's what all these projects are the one of the
+[819.64 --> 825.14]  biggest technical ones was some sort of version control and interacting with the outside world
+[825.14 --> 832.96]  and nowadays by far the most popular version control system for open source is git and so i've been
+[832.96 --> 838.92]  working on implementing git in javascript because then i can use it anywhere and so yeah well that brings
+[838.92 --> 844.64]  us to the i guess the first hurdle you hit was you couldn't do t edit unless you had js git can you
+[844.64 --> 850.64]  talk about i guess the exploration the inventor side of you to to know i mean there's obviously a lot
+[850.64 --> 855.74]  of wisdom and discernment in your choices too i mean you can see that given your path uh you crowdfunded
+[855.74 --> 863.14]  js git twice um so maybe take us back to you know you said you have a goal how did you begin to think
+[863.14 --> 866.92]  about that goal and and figure out what you needed to get in place to actually meet it
+[866.92 --> 875.10]  well the way you eat an elephant is one bite at a time and it's very easy to get overwhelmed when
+[875.10 --> 880.22]  you have large goals like this and so i figured what is a large substantial thing that i need for
+[880.22 --> 887.38]  this that just needs to get done and and i decided over a year about a little over a year ago that i
+[887.38 --> 893.88]  need to get and if i had git that would enable so many things and so i tried working on my free time
+[893.88 --> 898.68]  didn't make any progress i looked for existing code and there was nothing that had what i needed
+[898.68 --> 903.30]  i mean there there were several attempts i'm not the first person to try getting javascript there
+[903.30 --> 909.54]  were many many attempts but nothing nothing had what i wanted and so one day i just came to the
+[909.54 --> 915.04]  conclusion that i have to do this full time and i have to find a way to fund that and kickstarter was
+[915.04 --> 918.78]  very was a little new and still pretty exciting back then so i thought i'd give it a try
+[918.78 --> 922.12]  and that's that's where that started
+[922.12 --> 930.62]  so there were two kickstarters for jskit there was a kick so there was a kickstarter and i didn't ask
+[930.62 --> 937.06]  for near enough money because i miss i misunderstood how it works i want to ask you about that goal
+[937.06 --> 941.68]  because i've heard some kind of behind the scene horror stories from some people like i didn't ask for
+[941.68 --> 948.74]  enough or yeah so so i mean obviously implementing git in javascript is with my skill set roughly
+[948.74 --> 956.92]  a year full-time work i mean it's not easy at all and i asked for what i asked for 12 000
+[956.92 --> 962.36]  that's not a year of salary i have three kids in a house i mean that's not going to work right
+[962.36 --> 969.38]  so what what i did was i calculated okay i have these consulting projects and if i cancel them then
+[969.38 --> 974.22]  it'll take me a month or two to get new consulting things if the kickstarter doesn't work out or whatever
+[974.22 --> 978.08]  and so in kickstarter they say what's your minimum what's the least you're willing to accept
+[978.08 --> 983.92]  to make it worth your time and i said well i'll do 12 000 that'll give me enough that i can live
+[983.92 --> 989.48]  on a reduced budget for a few months and that makes it worth it to fire my clients
+[989.48 --> 994.98]  and so i put that as my minimum now here's the problem everyone who was funding it thought that
+[994.98 --> 1001.46]  was all i needed and so it hit the minimum overnight like overnight it hit it was because
+[1001.46 --> 1005.08]  it was very exciting people love the idea but as soon as i hit that it just crawled to a halt
+[1005.08 --> 1010.82]  and i set stretch goals i explained to people no that's the minimum if you want all these things
+[1010.82 --> 1017.24]  implemented i need a lot more and it didn't work so i worked on that i stretched it for as many months
+[1017.24 --> 1021.56]  as i could until it was endangering my family and then bounty source came to me and says hey we're
+[1021.56 --> 1027.28]  like kickstarter but specifically for open source projects we will help you and they did they they
+[1027.28 --> 1032.30]  went out and helped find funding from corporations they handled all the stickers and t-shirts and everything
+[1032.30 --> 1037.10]  wow they just charge a fee for the service which i thought was well worth my time because when i was
+[1037.10 --> 1042.54]  doing the kickstarter i spent an entire month and a half full-time fundraising and that was half the
+[1042.54 --> 1050.22]  money because i barely hit i barely got enough so that was almost a waste of time so the js get one
+[1050.22 --> 1059.30]  in in bounty source raised 34 000 just a little over 34 000 of your 30 000 goal that's that's neat i i knew
+[1059.30 --> 1064.82]  about bounty source obviously we've we've um i think we've had uh michael peace on the show before
+[1064.82 --> 1070.22]  he had an rvm fundraiser there i'm not really sure you term it uh bounty source there i guess
+[1070.22 --> 1076.26]  because you would use the brand name of the platform like a kickstarter i don't know sure um
+[1076.26 --> 1081.78]  and then you got your 12 000 goal that you that you even over exceeded to you had four or five backers
+[1081.78 --> 1086.98]  on on kickstarter which uh looking at the time frames trying to figure out what the time frames were
+[1086.98 --> 1092.34]  between the two was it about five months between or a few months between kickstarter and bounty source
+[1092.34 --> 1099.30]  something like that that sounds right so i mean you got twenty thousand dollars so what happened when
+[1099.30 --> 1104.50]  you got when you first get your first crowdfunding from kickstarter did you you fired your clients and
+[1104.50 --> 1109.94]  and went to work for two months and then what'd you do yeah i worked and spent most of the months
+[1109.94 --> 1114.82]  just trying to solve the cross-platform issue which was the first thing because the javascript
+[1114.82 --> 1120.42]  module ecosystem is terribly fragmented and the goal of js git was to have this platform that runs
+[1120.42 --> 1126.10]  anywhere so i had to run on chrome app platform on the web platform on the firefox app platform on
+[1126.10 --> 1130.26]  the windows app platform on cordova on pretty much any javascript platform you can think of
+[1131.30 --> 1136.74]  and so i spent the first several months mostly figuring that out i mean i did some get specific
+[1136.74 --> 1140.58]  code here and there and a lot of it was finding out what existed and how i could use it
+[1140.58 --> 1148.18]  but i'm going to admit a lot of that time was was spent trying to find a flexible way to work with
+[1148.18 --> 1153.38]  all these systems what's the i guess what's the biggest hurdle between the two between all of them
+[1153.38 --> 1156.74]  just uh the fact that they're just different they make different choices or how they store
+[1157.38 --> 1161.78]  data how they deal with databases i mean that kind of stuff you can abstract away
+[1163.30 --> 1169.54]  the the trick was how was the best way to abstract that how what kind of dependency injection do i want
+[1169.54 --> 1173.78]  to use what kind of module system do i want to invent because i can't use anything existing
+[1174.82 --> 1180.02]  a lot of people told me to just use browserify which i understand if you're on a desktop platform
+[1180.02 --> 1184.58]  that's a great choice but i'm specifically targeting platforms that don't have a command
+[1184.58 --> 1190.74]  line that don't have node right and so i want to be able to develop on these machines not just consume
+[1190.74 --> 1195.38]  on these machines that was the entire point and so i can't depend on a tool chains that need a desktop
+[1195.38 --> 1202.26]  machine so basically there was nothing existing i could use yeah it's like all these you might be
+[1202.26 --> 1206.74]  able to learn something from some of them or at least see what their what their goods and bads are
+[1206.74 --> 1211.78]  i guess you know what their fails and successes were to maybe learn from that but otherwise you're kind of
+[1211.78 --> 1217.62]  hanging out in uncharted territory right i mean i i use browserify style transforms i write all my code
+[1217.62 --> 1222.82]  as common js modules and then they're compiled to whatever i need for the target but all these transforms
+[1222.82 --> 1227.46]  run in web workers or if i'm a node they run in something else but they but it's all implemented
+[1227.46 --> 1232.90]  in the t edit platform let's pause the show for a minute give a shout out to our sponsor snap snap
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+[1287.78 --> 1295.86]  well since you teed up t edit um you know you did js get um i guess out of the box i'm you know i
+[1295.86 --> 1300.82]  want you to explain what it is for one and then i guess a follow-up question that would be why no
+[1300.82 --> 1305.78]  crowdfunding for t edit but there was crowdfunding for js get okay so on the crowdfunding
+[1305.78 --> 1314.18]  it did not go so well the second time the bounty source i set a much higher goal i set a much longer
+[1314.18 --> 1321.14]  time frame because i learned that the companies can't get from idea to approval within a couple
+[1321.14 --> 1327.06]  weeks they just don't work that fast like brian larue and some other people at adobe were trying to
+[1327.06 --> 1331.22]  help me get adobe funding and they're like look if you give us a week of warning we're gonna have a
+[1331.22 --> 1336.82]  really hard time getting you that money so i set the goal longer i set the money higher and i traveled
+[1336.82 --> 1342.42]  i went to california i talked to people at all the big companies and i was getting nothing
+[1344.82 --> 1351.46]  i was several weeks in and i think i just had a few thousand dollars mostly from individuals who
+[1351.46 --> 1355.78]  funded me the first time around and just liked me so much they want to do it again yeah that's not
+[1355.78 --> 1362.02]  sustainable at the the last second mozilla bailed me out and paid the bulk of it with a grant wow
+[1362.66 --> 1368.18]  but i i learned from that that i can't live long term on crowdfunding it helps you get an idea off
+[1368.18 --> 1375.06]  the ground it helps you discover if people like it but i don't believe it works long term so what was
+[1375.06 --> 1379.30]  the feedback from the individual companies on t edit did it just not align with their particular goals
+[1379.30 --> 1385.22]  like js get did or did you have a hard time delivering the vision well i i didn't even try
+[1385.22 --> 1391.14]  to fundraise t edit so i don't know oh okay the bounty source was still js get gotcha but the the feedback
+[1391.14 --> 1396.74]  i got from several of them and one of them just just bluntly told me he's like look my generation of
+[1396.74 --> 1402.98]  managers does not understand giving money to an open source project if we give you money we want a
+[1402.98 --> 1409.06]  contract in place and we want exclusive ownership and i was telling them no this code is open this code
+[1409.06 --> 1413.54]  this code is freely available to anyone and they're like so you want me to give you money so my
+[1413.54 --> 1419.06]  competitors can benefit i'm like yes because if you don't it won't exist and it benefits you too
+[1420.26 --> 1426.02]  and they're like nope you think there might just be a generational gap there or maybe it just
+[1426.90 --> 1431.94]  case by case i think so i mean mozilla obviously donated the most twice but they're a non-profit whose
+[1431.94 --> 1436.26]  goal is the open web right and i'm doing something cool with javascript like they don't actually need
+[1436.26 --> 1439.22]  jskit they just thought it was cool that i'm doing something with javascript
+[1440.66 --> 1444.74]  i think adobe was the only company who actually had a use for it that donated because they were
+[1444.74 --> 1450.42]  thinking of using it in brackets and something with some other stuff that's tough to i mean
+[1451.70 --> 1454.66]  you know jared you asked is it a generational gap or something else i think
+[1455.70 --> 1459.22]  yeah if you don't have the right person who cares and really understands and i think that's kind
+[1459.22 --> 1460.90]  of what we try to do with this show is to
+[1460.90 --> 1466.34]  to to not just talk about the projects but also the people behind them and the motivations and
+[1466.34 --> 1470.98]  their aspirations and like you had said before the goal behind this project is pretty audacious
+[1471.70 --> 1478.18]  and it's uncharted territories and shining a light on that is important because there's a lot of benefit
+[1478.18 --> 1483.22]  that can come down the way from all this learning that you're doing and what it gives back but you
+[1483.22 --> 1487.38]  know we have a passion for open source we understand the community and it's a lot harder to sell that to
+[1487.38 --> 1492.02]  someone who just doesn't get it just doesn't care maybe they maybe they get it they just don't care
+[1492.58 --> 1499.46]  and given a lot of money to something and and not seeing in quotes the roi is is really tough we we
+[1499.46 --> 1505.38]  face that battle here and there too ourselves yeah it's it's tough i mean there there were companies
+[1505.38 --> 1510.10]  which i'm i know benefit a lot from what i'm doing and i couldn't get them to fund because that's just
+[1510.10 --> 1515.62]  not their policy that's not how they work and so it's t at a totally nice and weekends and you're just
+[1515.62 --> 1523.14]  uh full-time somewhere or at the moment yes so around around new year's the js get money almost
+[1523.14 --> 1528.82]  dried up and so i made one last sprint i was going to try to make a product that used js get and i
+[1528.82 --> 1533.30]  could sell that product i was going for the business route maybe like maybe i could fund it that way
+[1533.86 --> 1538.58]  and so if you look at my github history you'll see i worked insane overtime the first couple months
+[1538.58 --> 1544.34]  of this year and i was basically just building t edit from the ground up and i tried a web version i
+[1544.34 --> 1549.54]  tried a portable version and i i got stressed and just focused on a chrome app only version
+[1549.54 --> 1554.98]  so i just threw away all the all the cross-platform stuff and i got pretty far in the chrome app version
+[1554.98 --> 1561.14]  until i finally was really out of money and so right now i'm just i'm doing consulting work
+[1562.10 --> 1568.10]  and i work on t edit when i have time but the progress is way slow because i had to stop so i was
+[1568.10 --> 1572.50]  going to ask you about the the chrome app piece because you talk about you know open cross-platform and
+[1572.50 --> 1576.50]  then i look at it it's a chrome app and i thought this doesn't seem to line up with its goals but it
+[1576.50 --> 1584.10]  seems like it's just a just a time and money decision for now well and there's many versions of it this
+[1584.10 --> 1592.26]  week actually i i made i made a little time and t edit now runs on chrome and web nice so if you go
+[1592.26 --> 1597.38]  to t edit.creationx.com that's the web version and if you look in the source tree it's the exact same code
+[1597.38 --> 1602.34]  there's just a few parts where it swaps in some platform primitives and turns off some features
+[1603.70 --> 1608.98]  so for example in the chrome app i can access the file system so i can read and write files i can
+[1609.70 --> 1616.18]  there's one feature where you can export your t edit build system final files like the built files to
+[1616.18 --> 1621.46]  the file system and so you can use a chrome app to make chrome apps or i've used it for node development
+[1621.46 --> 1629.46]  before i also say before we dive deep i know that uh t is probably a rough concept for most anyways
+[1629.46 --> 1634.50]  maybe you could tee it off by you know you mentioned the goal of you know programming being accessible to
+[1634.50 --> 1639.70]  everybody but can you kind of give us what exactly is t edit kind of give us the high level overview
+[1639.70 --> 1644.90]  let's let's start diving into some of the details around what it does and how it works and where you see
+[1644.90 --> 1651.94]  it going sure so yeah js gets just a library it was just a means to an end and then t edit itself
+[1651.94 --> 1658.82]  is the developer environment and the goal there is is i want to i'm thinking of two two main use cases
+[1658.82 --> 1664.26]  one is me i like being a random machines like my chromebook pixel for example or who knows what else
+[1664.26 --> 1669.78]  maybe my android tablet and i want to be able to do work there and then kids in my programming class or
+[1669.78 --> 1675.54]  just anywhere who are learning i want them to be able to use any machine they have i chose chrome
+[1675.54 --> 1682.34]  app for now because it's everywhere nearly if the machine has chrome it can run chrome apps
+[1683.38 --> 1688.82]  so that's all laptops including chromebooks and desktops and there's a lot of chromebooks in schools
+[1689.62 --> 1694.26]  i thought lots of kids had them maybe that's not true i don't know and then two the platform is
+[1694.26 --> 1699.14]  very powerful it gives you primitives the web doesn't have i can access the file system i can make a
+[1699.14 --> 1704.26]  web server i can get around the cores restriction and talk cross domain you have all these extra
+[1704.26 --> 1713.54]  primitives that the browser doesn't have so the the chrome app that's in the the store right now
+[1714.26 --> 1721.62]  is basically an ide that edits git repositories directly it does not edit files on disk and this
+[1721.62 --> 1724.82]  is a very important distinction between t edit and all the other editors in the world
+[1724.82 --> 1731.38]  in everything else git is a tool you use on the side that creates a working directory and then your
+[1731.38 --> 1736.10]  editor works with those files on the hard drive and then when you go back to git you pull those files
+[1736.10 --> 1743.78]  back into the git database whereas in t edit you never have a working directory ever you always work
+[1743.78 --> 1748.74]  directly on the git database so it's a it's a it's a slightly different way of working
+[1748.74 --> 1756.10]  does that make for a better user experience or more approachable than than the traditional way
+[1756.10 --> 1761.14]  i'm still exploring that one of the things that i found that i like i really like so far is i found
+[1761.14 --> 1769.22]  a way to make sub modules not suck really yeah because the concept is not wrong just the ux in the
+[1769.22 --> 1775.22]  real git client is terrible it is horribly terrible and this is why people don't use sub modules because
+[1775.22 --> 1780.34]  they'll bite you yeah i mean i've personally given up on them a while ago so i don't even know what
+[1780.34 --> 1784.66]  the current state of sub modules is because i just nothing's completely just flush them from my brain
+[1784.66 --> 1792.50]  no nothing's changed it's okay no one works on it as far as i know okay but like the main issues were
+[1794.10 --> 1799.46]  one it doesn't record the branch you're working on like the way it's actually implemented is very
+[1799.46 --> 1805.38]  simple in the tree blob for that file listing it's just type commit and then the hash is the
+[1805.38 --> 1810.90]  hash in the other repo that's it no other context it just points to the hash in another repo and then
+[1810.90 --> 1816.58]  in the root of your project there's a git modules file right that maps that path to a remote url and
+[1816.58 --> 1823.22]  that's it so by default in the normal client you're in if you change anything you get thrown in a detached
+[1823.22 --> 1827.38]  head state and then if you move some stuff right in the parent repo it'll revert your code without
+[1827.38 --> 1832.34]  even warning you and your changes are gone and if right if you forget to push the sub module
+[1833.06 --> 1836.90]  and then push the main one it'll point to a commit that doesn't exist on github and like it's a
+[1836.90 --> 1845.06]  nightmare so how do you fix it so with t edit everything is one big continuous virtual file system
+[1845.94 --> 1852.34]  and sub modules are just mapped in like you do an nfs or samba mount and you can just browse them as
+[1852.34 --> 1857.14]  if they were local files and depending on which back end you're using it works really well i have a
+[1857.14 --> 1863.38]  github back end that actually mounts the repos using github's rest api and uses github as the
+[1863.38 --> 1871.46]  data store instead of a local data store i have a local cache to make it faster but all the real
+[1871.46 --> 1878.42]  actions happen directly on github and so suppose i edit a file in a sub module i will then save that
+[1878.42 --> 1884.58]  blob to github which gives me back a hash and then i modify the parent tree to say hey it points to this
+[1884.58 --> 1888.26]  new hash and then i save that and gets new hash for the parent tree and i do this all the way up to
+[1888.26 --> 1894.10]  the root tree and then once the root tree has a new hash i create a temporary commit pointing to that
+[1894.10 --> 1900.02]  root tree and then in the parent repository i update the sub module entry to points to that new temporary
+[1900.02 --> 1906.74]  commit and then this prop gets all the way up to the root so anytime you change anything in a
+[1906.74 --> 1914.42]  t edit tree it's saved all the way up in all the parent repos and so if you knew the the hash to
+[1914.42 --> 1918.26]  the temporary commit you could see all these temporary state of your files in github
+[1920.34 --> 1924.90]  but that's all in the background like you don't actually see that temporary commit right since i don't
+[1924.90 --> 1930.26]  actually move the reference i don't actually move head none of it's visible and in fact if you don't
+[1930.26 --> 1933.78]  commit it within two weeks it'll probably get garbage collected by github's back end
+[1933.78 --> 1939.46]  hmm so you don't want to be in this state for a long time like i i commit my code every day just
+[1939.46 --> 1945.30]  because i don't trust my local machine and not eat my code right is this is this keying off of the
+[1946.82 --> 1950.58]  just watching we'll link out to this too so if you're listening we'll we'll have this youtube
+[1950.58 --> 1955.94]  video we're going to mention uh we mentioned earlier tim's awesome demo of this which it was
+[1955.94 --> 1962.82]  very enlightening and mind-blowing but you said in the video uh it's always committing is that just um
+[1962.82 --> 1967.46]  is that kind of like committing to your local git repository and then finally doing a final push
+[1967.46 --> 1973.78]  whenever you want to do a commit of that code and is that kind of like a rebase of that or or
+[1973.78 --> 1977.62]  whatever to kind of munch it into one commit is that what you're doing or is it something more unique
+[1977.62 --> 1985.38]  than that no it's um so like like i said when i'm using the github back end your jsgit instance is a
+[1985.38 --> 1990.82]  proxy to github there is no local database there is no clone there is no pool there is no fetch there is no
+[1990.82 --> 1997.70]  push you are literally modifying your data on github directly like if you open up the terminal you can
+[1997.70 --> 2003.70]  see rest calls just flying back and forth but it actually performs pretty well so how does that
+[2003.70 --> 2008.66]  handle offline is it just queue them up and wait it doesn't or it doesn't okay i have a task for that
+[2009.30 --> 2014.66]  okay because i want offline though right i mean you got a lot of this it's offline and secure i heard
+[2014.66 --> 2018.02]  that a couple times in the video can you talk about that is that a good time to talk about that or
+[2018.02 --> 2023.54]  uh sure so the backends there's lots of backends for jsgit there is no one back end the jsgithub
+[2023.54 --> 2028.34]  back end is the one that live mounts github repos it's the one i use the most because i don't have
+[2028.34 --> 2035.70]  push and pull implemented and so i can't sync and so i just use that one but once i implement the
+[2035.70 --> 2040.90]  network protocols the other backends will work great there's an index db back end i was working on a web
+[2040.90 --> 2046.90]  sql back end this morning there's i had a local storage one but i don't know if it's still maintained
+[2046.90 --> 2053.30]  because there were some issues there mostly with just limited space if you're a node i have a back
+[2053.30 --> 2059.46]  end that can that can read and write real git repos off disk so it implements that format that dot get
+[2059.46 --> 2065.30]  folder i have the same thing for chrome apps because chrome apps can access the native file system so you
+[2065.30 --> 2071.14]  can mount a native git repository using a chrome app edit it and t edit and then push it from the
+[2071.14 --> 2077.46]  command line if you have node or if you have git so there's lots of backends and it's very flexible
+[2078.26 --> 2084.34]  there was i had people talking to me one company thought about using s3 as a back end and all i
+[2084.34 --> 2090.26]  really need is a key value store that's the bulk of what git needs for its storage so it's depends on
+[2090.26 --> 2097.54]  what performance you want you can use anything as the back end yeah but yeah i haven't i haven't
+[2097.54 --> 2102.58]  implemented push and pull fully yet i haven't implemented merge or diff because and those are
+[2102.58 --> 2106.82]  being on the js get side right not on the t edit side yeah they're part of js get but t edit will use
+[2106.82 --> 2112.74]  them it'll it'll expose interfaces for them and yeah that's that's where i was when i ran out of money
+[2112.74 --> 2118.02]  i was i was implementing that stuff and then i couldn't get done so you mentioned you're you ran out of
+[2118.02 --> 2124.74]  money where what is the state of this project right now i guess from uh obviously you're passionate
+[2124.74 --> 2129.86]  about it so that that kind of goes without saying but you know are you out of money what's the next
+[2129.86 --> 2135.46]  step to giving yourself the necessary time to keep building this and i guess what is your direction
+[2136.50 --> 2142.98]  so i've got some consulting work till end of june and after that i'm going to take another run at it
+[2142.98 --> 2148.82]  see how much i can get done and see if i can find more novel ways to fund it i don't know yet
+[2149.94 --> 2156.34]  how i'm going to do that i'm just trying to survive and get there some some ideas i had was t edit
+[2156.34 --> 2162.02]  consulting where people would want to use js get or t edit in their product and they could pay me to
+[2162.02 --> 2168.50]  integrate it into their platform and i found some interest there from a few companies i could do
+[2168.50 --> 2174.10]  one one thing i really want to do back to my original goal is i want to make games i want to
+[2174.10 --> 2179.94]  make simple games make them open source and then write docs about how to write games so these kids
+[2179.94 --> 2186.34]  can get into programming and i was thinking about maybe selling podcasts or tutorials because people
+[2186.34 --> 2191.06]  seem to want to pay for that what i don't want to do is i don't want to charge for the code
+[2192.26 --> 2197.30]  because i'm essentially writing infrastructure and infrastructure should not be for pay it should be freely
+[2197.30 --> 2200.50]  available because it's just code it doesn't it's not like it cost me anything to copy it
+[2202.02 --> 2207.22]  so i want t edit and js getting all the code itself to stay open sourced mit or apache something very
+[2207.22 --> 2213.94]  very liberal and find other ways i've considered another fundraiser but like i said before i don't
+[2213.94 --> 2218.90]  think that's sustainable yeah it's well especially if you've been through two and the second one
+[2220.02 --> 2226.02]  even had the help of bounty source um still had to be you know the final bit taken care of by mozilla
+[2226.02 --> 2231.14]  and big shout out to mozilla too you know i'll give them a thanks i know you already have but on the
+[2231.14 --> 2237.86]  show that's that's awesome to support tim like that so yeah they're awesome tim you mentioned um in
+[2237.86 --> 2243.54]  that in the video that we keep mentioning your demo uh a pro version what is that on the horizon that's
+[2243.54 --> 2247.54]  is that something that you're thinking about you just mentioned free code you know and no charge
+[2247.54 --> 2253.86]  for infrastructure so does does a pro version fit into that um i don't know i've sort of scrapped that idea
+[2253.86 --> 2258.42]  i do still have a hosting platform i've been developing and that's actually my only private
+[2258.42 --> 2266.34]  repo on github and we haven't talked about the t edit build system yet but yes that was pretty neat
+[2266.34 --> 2272.74]  too high level it's a build system like grunt or gulp or whatever but it works completely different
+[2272.74 --> 2278.98]  and you don't need a command line but this the same build system i've implemented in a node web service
+[2278.98 --> 2286.74]  where i can host your t edit based web apps and it's basically github pages but with a bunch of
+[2286.74 --> 2294.26]  smarts baked in so one idea is i could charge for that hosting because it's a service i don't mind i
+[2294.26 --> 2297.62]  don't mind charging for services i just don't want to charge for the infrastructure code
+[2299.86 --> 2305.38]  but hosting is a hard thing to make money from the the build system that you mentioned is that um
+[2305.38 --> 2311.38]  is that where you were piping into like app cache and the other tools that are available to to build
+[2311.38 --> 2318.66]  something because you use the use t edit to rebuild another version of t edit right right so let me let
+[2318.66 --> 2325.70]  me go into that so the original goal was i wanted a full development environment so once i have get done
+[2325.70 --> 2331.22]  and i've implemented push and pull and merge and diff and all that fun stuff i have version control i have
+[2331.22 --> 2338.18]  sharing and i've done dependencies with the easy sub modules i can add a package manager on top of
+[2338.18 --> 2344.26]  that that just eases setting up these sub modules but you still need a way to build files in modern web
+[2344.26 --> 2348.74]  development maybe some people use coffee script maybe you like writing common js but you're running
+[2348.74 --> 2354.26]  in a browser you need you need build steps and so the t edit build system is kind of unique
+[2355.06 --> 2359.62]  the way it works is you create these rule files i think there were some links in the video yeah
+[2359.62 --> 2364.90]  but now they're rule files dot rule they're actually written in john which is a subset of jack
+[2365.54 --> 2370.74]  like json is a subset of javascript so they look like json they're just a little more flexible
+[2371.38 --> 2377.86]  and you basically say all right this so you take the file that you want to exist i need an app cache
+[2377.86 --> 2384.10]  manifest or manifest app cache and then you add dot rule to the file name mark it as executable because
+[2384.10 --> 2390.10]  you can do that cross-platforming git because i'm not using real files and what the system will do
+[2390.10 --> 2396.66]  is when it sees an executable dot rule file when it's serving over the web or exporting to disk or
+[2396.66 --> 2402.34]  going through anything that needs the built version of the files it will execute that rule and the rule
+[2402.34 --> 2408.50]  itself will be an arbitrary program the user writes and i'm going to maintain a library of some useful
+[2408.50 --> 2413.62]  things and so these are the equivalent of your your gulp or grunt plugins and so i have one called app
+[2413.62 --> 2419.30]  cache and you give it a listing of files and what it will do is it will search the git tree the built
+[2419.30 --> 2425.38]  version find the e-tag of all those files and append them as comments in the app cache and if you've
+[2425.38 --> 2429.78]  worked with that cache before you know that the the file needs to change every time any file it depends
+[2429.78 --> 2435.30]  on changes and so that way you don't have to constantly go update some timestamp in your app cache
+[2435.30 --> 2440.66]  so when you refresh in the browser it automatically grabs the new app cache and you always have the
+[2440.66 --> 2447.54]  latest code and there's there's other compilers there's the the one i just built for my cross
+[2447.54 --> 2454.50]  platform stuff i called what did i call it js compiler something really really plain but what
+[2454.50 --> 2461.14]  it does is it takes a tree of source code that's in common js node style and then builds it as a bunch
+[2461.14 --> 2469.22]  of amd modules and then i have a really really minimal amd loader that injects those as script
+[2469.22 --> 2475.46]  tags in the web page and loads them on demand and i'm going to add another version that builds a
+[2475.46 --> 2481.70]  single concatenated file for websites that want to work offline and so what you'll do is you'll have
+[2481.70 --> 2485.86]  all your javascript in the one big concatenated file and then your app cache manifest will point to
+[2485.86 --> 2490.50]  that file and then anytime anything changes the e-tag of the big file will change which will then
+[2490.50 --> 2496.18]  cause them app cache to change and so you'll have automatic concatenation we can throw in
+[2496.18 --> 2500.98]  minification you can have any other filters you want we could do coffee script i have a
+[2502.02 --> 2506.98]  i've put facebook's regenerator in there because i really like using generators so now i can use
+[2506.98 --> 2513.46]  generators in any web app or chrome app i want and all of this works without a command line without node
+[2513.46 --> 2519.62]  without anything let's pause the show for just a minute give a shout out to our sponsor top towel
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+[2577.94 --> 2578.74]  changelog sent you
+[2581.30 --> 2584.66]  you mentioned in the video too since you're mentioning node and npm i think you mentioned earlier
+[2584.66 --> 2592.10]  um you know on a chromebook so you're this is just to kind of recap this is pointed right now it's a
+[2592.10 --> 2596.98]  chrome app and i think it seems like if i'm if i'm hearing you correctly it seems like it's a chrome
+[2596.98 --> 2600.90]  app now not because you don't want to be cross-platform but because you have limited time
+[2600.90 --> 2606.98]  and you need to make progress um is that is that accurate to say well i need i need the extra
+[2606.98 --> 2612.74]  primitives the web version has serious limitations right i can't get github or bitbucket to turn on
+[2612.74 --> 2617.14]  cores i have asked them multiple times and i don't know if they have security security concerns or what
+[2617.14 --> 2624.42]  but a web page cannot clone from github because it's cross domain yeah right now there is the rest api
+[2624.42 --> 2628.90]  which i use extensively but it's it's much slower and it's proprietary to them and it's not the same
+[2630.50 --> 2635.38]  so with a chrome app i have full access to everything and also i can access the file system
+[2635.38 --> 2642.18]  i can create a local http server and so you can write a web app in the chrome app host it start
+[2642.18 --> 2646.98]  the web server in the chrome app and then another tab in your chromebook you can then run your web app
+[2647.54 --> 2652.34]  and all of the build files will be built by t-edit in the chrome app and everything works end to end
+[2652.34 --> 2657.46]  and then like you mentioned you can also self-host the t-edit itself so i can build a chrome app with
+[2657.46 --> 2663.46]  a chrome app that's awesome let me just stop you for a second and say you're doing some really cool
+[2663.46 --> 2668.58]  stuff when i watched that jared up my i was like i seriously almost fell over i had to catch myself
+[2669.86 --> 2674.10]  i feel like there's certain people out there that like everybody should they should just be given a
+[2674.10 --> 2678.42]  bunch of money and be like just go do your thing and we're all going to be better off and i got a
+[2678.42 --> 2685.94]  feeling you're one of those guys sounds good to me well we're offline i mean what i think uh i think
+[2685.94 --> 2691.14]  what jared's trying to say is you have our full support whatever we can ever do to help you we're
+[2691.14 --> 2694.90]  going to be there for you and i'd like to talk to you more about some ways we can be a part of that and
+[2694.90 --> 2702.34]  just help make your life a little easier if we can so you um you touched on the web server part of it
+[2702.34 --> 2707.22]  um is there any more we can mention about that i think it's just kind of unique that it's it's all
+[2707.22 --> 2714.50]  encompassing t-edit it's it not only is it it's a full-on ide it's it's uh edit straight from git i
+[2714.50 --> 2721.54]  mean this is pretty some pretty amazing stuff um you know you can run the app itself with it um
+[2722.74 --> 2727.62]  and i think one other quote you said you're not building an editor you're building a workflow
+[2727.62 --> 2734.10]  and it seems like this is you know not only is it it's got all these complex back-end pieces but
+[2734.90 --> 2740.10]  you're also able to serve up whatever you've built and then the offline part that i think you touched
+[2740.10 --> 2744.74]  on in the video that i'm not sure how accurate it is now because that was in february but you were
+[2744.74 --> 2750.50]  able to kill the current web server and still serve up the game from the app cache right so app cache
+[2750.50 --> 2755.70]  lets apps work offline and when i get the web version of t-edit done it's going to have its own app cache
+[2755.70 --> 2761.78]  so you can you can go on an android tablet go to t-edit.creationx.com it'll run today but you have
+[2761.78 --> 2767.86]  to be online but once i get all of that done and i've implemented offline sync then you'll be able
+[2767.86 --> 2775.30]  to add this to home screen it'll work offline just like any native app which which i'm very excited about
+[2776.26 --> 2781.62]  how has uh mounting a github repo changed it see i couldn't tell from the video how
+[2781.62 --> 2787.38]  it seemed like you had to like manually type in you couldn't just like what maybe some users at
+[2787.38 --> 2792.90]  least i was thinking that you might just be able to choose um you know from the repo versus like
+[2792.90 --> 2799.78]  hand typing in creation x slash t edit i have an app for example to to kind of and then you also had
+[2799.78 --> 2804.66]  to point back i think a sha1 code can you talk about mounting a github repo maybe how that's changed
+[2804.66 --> 2810.34]  since february if it's changed at all so that that ux hasn't changed much the what that is is it's a
+[2810.34 --> 2816.50]  github token and i'm not sure you can github oauth from anything that doesn't have server
+[2816.50 --> 2821.54]  assistance because the way they've set up their oauth but you can go to github and request an app
+[2821.54 --> 2825.86]  token and then paste that token in and you only have to do it once to set up your machine and it
+[2825.86 --> 2831.14]  remembers it okay now the other part that the paste in the url is just me being lazy there's no
+[2831.14 --> 2836.66]  reason i couldn't have a smarter ui that using the rest api queries all of your git repos and gives
+[2836.66 --> 2841.78]  you a drop down or some smart selector or whatever that's a nice to have not a need to have right
+[2841.78 --> 2846.50]  yeah i'm focusing on the things that other people can't do or other people think they can't do there's
+[2846.50 --> 2854.18]  nothing i'm doing other people can't do and um just to kind of key off one more thing i i'm not sure
+[2854.18 --> 2859.78]  if we touched on it i think slightly but it uses ace editor and it kind of goes back to what i just said
+[2860.26 --> 2864.74]  which is what you said actually uh which is i'm not building an editor i'm building a workflow so you
+[2864.74 --> 2869.22]  didn't actually build the editor part of it this is from an existing open source project that's out
+[2869.22 --> 2873.38]  there i think i was going to ask about your cloud cloud nine experience i'm assuming you had some
+[2873.38 --> 2877.94]  part in ace editor as well i didn't actually work on ace a lot while i was there it was pretty much
+[2877.94 --> 2885.78]  fabian's work i've at cloud nine i was doing a bunch of infrastructure back-end stuff making the like
+[2885.78 --> 2890.26]  the big thing i did there was i made the terminal run in the browser over web socket with the lowest latency
+[2890.26 --> 2897.22]  possible okay but yeah ace is amazing i've i used code mirror for a while and then i switched to ace
+[2897.22 --> 2902.02]  because i i prefer it personally it's it's a lot more full-featured out of the box but it's also a
+[2902.02 --> 2908.34]  lot bigger so it's a trade-off i liked your um your comments too about working late at night near
+[2908.34 --> 2914.10]  children in low light levels and being able to easily swap out the various um oh right the various
+[2914.10 --> 2919.62]  syntax highlighting colors that was pretty neat too so when you open up t-edit you're going to see a
+[2919.62 --> 2924.02]  nice window at a tree view the tree view is all my code and that's all custom code that's the bulk
+[2924.02 --> 2931.06]  of the code actually everything's inside that tree and using tj holloway chuck's css parser i parse out
+[2931.06 --> 2937.46]  the ace theme when you change themes and then apply the same colors to the tree so your entire screen is
+[2937.46 --> 2942.90]  the same color scheme because like you said i am i am all often working in the dark in a bedroom next
+[2942.90 --> 2948.10]  to children helping them sleep and i hit having this bright white tree here next to this dark code
+[2948.10 --> 2954.10]  here and it's yeah it doesn't work yeah i've kind of i like that too it's just i think those who
+[2954.66 --> 2960.26]  primarily work maybe in in vim or something like that are used to it because it's all whatever they
+[2960.26 --> 2965.86]  set for their theme in you know in their terminal but for those who maybe work in sublime text or
+[2965.86 --> 2970.98]  other i guess ide's you generally have syntax highlighting and colors for your code but then
+[2970.98 --> 2975.78]  it doesn't really apply to your sidebar your you know your file system like you just mentioned so it's
+[2975.78 --> 2980.02]  it was neat how those played a part too and just even easy to how you can swap
+[2980.98 --> 2987.78]  from one color to another i think it makes it a little harder in other editors and for some reason
+[2988.34 --> 2994.58]  you just made it so easy right like i said my focus is accessibility yeah and part of accessibility is
+[2995.46 --> 3000.66]  uh vision so one of the first things that i did for t-edit was you can change the font size and the
+[3000.66 --> 3007.38]  color scheme with keyboard shortcuts there you can change them very easily so if i'm presented at a
+[3007.38 --> 3012.50]  conference and i'm live demoing i can change it to a white background if it's not a very good projector
+[3012.50 --> 3017.78]  i can bump up the font or shrink it down i want all these things to be extremely easy because i don't
+[3017.78 --> 3021.06]  want them to get in the way so those were some of the first things i did
+[3021.06 --> 3030.82]  well we didn't talk at all about chrome fs maybe you mentioned it note fs um i'm just looking at some
+[3030.82 --> 3036.50]  of our notes we had for this call what before we begin to close out the show what other things can
+[3036.50 --> 3041.86]  we mention that you know just you haven't done enough tim so what else is there to mention that's
+[3041.86 --> 3047.06]  um really important to close off i guess talking about t-edit and i guess the direction you're taking
+[3047.06 --> 3051.62]  with that right we should probably talk about the current state of the project and what people can
+[3051.62 --> 3059.06]  use now okay well it's not done and the biggest missing pieces are network and diff and merge but
+[3059.06 --> 3066.10]  what is done is a lot the js github backend is quite mature i use you can use it node or web app or chrome
+[3066.10 --> 3075.38]  it works anywhere the and that's the js github project there's two new ones there is get chrome fs and
+[3075.38 --> 3082.26]  get node fs and what those do is those use the built-in mix in and js get the fsdb and they let
+[3082.26 --> 3088.82]  you mount real git repos using js git either from a chrome app or through node and so the the hosting
+[3088.82 --> 3095.70]  project i was talking about what it does is it github mounts the projects but then it caches them
+[3095.70 --> 3102.10]  locally using a real git repo using the git node fs and when i'm doing my consulting work what i'll do is
+[3102.10 --> 3109.06]  using t-edit i will mount my local git repo on my macbook and that way i can edit the git tree in t-edit
+[3109.70 --> 3113.62]  and i need the files back on the hard drive for node and so i live export the whole thing to the
+[3113.62 --> 3119.86]  hard drive and so anytime i change a file it writes it out first to the git repo and then to the working
+[3119.86 --> 3126.90]  directory so i can test my code there there's a there's a few weird things about it because i now have
+[3126.90 --> 3134.66]  two copies of everything but some nice reverts or git resets fix that pretty quickly so you can use
+[3134.66 --> 3143.06]  js git today for a lot of things you can since you can read and write existing git repos if you're on a
+[3143.06 --> 3149.70]  server where you have real git then you can clone using normal git and then using js git you can mount
+[3149.70 --> 3156.02]  that repo and use this nice javascript api to walk the tree and walk the commits and do code analysis
+[3156.02 --> 3162.50]  or custom builds or whatever you want so this could be used for javascript package managers or build
+[3162.50 --> 3168.42]  systems or continuous integration systems i want to be able to eventually use it for mobile apps that
+[3168.42 --> 3176.50]  want a syncable offline storage and so i have two tasks there that i'm going to work on soon one is i'm
+[3176.50 --> 3180.98]  adding sync to the github back end so it can actually work offline and then sync with github
+[3180.98 --> 3185.70]  using the rest api and then another one is i'm going to implement the full pack protocol that
+[3185.70 --> 3190.90]  everyone else uses that real git uses for the platforms that actually have that network primitive
+[3193.06 --> 3197.70]  since you were talking about the i guess location of where things like mounting from github it seems
+[3197.70 --> 3204.26]  like it's got some deep github integrations at one point during your demo you talked about owning your
+[3204.26 --> 3209.38]  own code and you feel very passionate about that is it is it where you store your code or what did
+[3209.38 --> 3215.46]  you mean by that i couldn't quite understand what you were trying to trying to emphasize with owning
+[3215.46 --> 3220.74]  your own code in the editor is that is that keying off of where you mount your repos from like your own
+[3220.74 --> 3228.34]  private repos or github or bitbucket is it is it that or is it something else so i i worked with cloud
+[3228.34 --> 3233.38]  ids i mean i've worked at cloud nine for a while and the biggest issue i had with them is your entire
+[3233.38 --> 3239.46]  workspace lives on some cloud server right which i mean first of all that's a practicality issue you
+[3239.46 --> 3244.74]  have to be online and that's that's a non-starter for me i have flaky internet i travel a lot
+[3246.10 --> 3249.70]  and then it's on their cloud server they can read it they can write it they have full access to your
+[3249.70 --> 3253.70]  code they have your github token they can write to your github i don't think any of these companies
+[3253.70 --> 3257.78]  are malicious but just from a security standpoint you don't want anybody with that much power
+[3258.58 --> 3261.38]  they could be corrupted they could be hacked they are now a hacking target
+[3262.50 --> 3267.94]  whereas if everything lives locally in your device and you just push to github or bitbucket as a
+[3267.94 --> 3274.10]  public mirror then it's different you you are now in control of it and you control who has access
+[3275.70 --> 3282.50]  so and also with jsgit it's not hard at all to write your own your own services and your own hosting
+[3282.50 --> 3286.82]  as soon as i get some of this network syncing stuff done it'll be trivial for people to host
+[3286.82 --> 3292.58]  their own git repos and even mount them off their own servers yeah because the light the live mount
+[3292.58 --> 3297.14]  is really convenient if you have large repos with lots of sub dependencies you don't have to do
+[3297.14 --> 3299.78]  recursive clone you just instantly mount and everything's available
+[3302.50 --> 3307.94]  i was gonna say it seems like i mean for the most part github is very popular because of its
+[3307.94 --> 3313.06]  collaboration around open source not so much for being a git hosting platform that's how they started
+[3313.06 --> 3319.62]  but they popularized social coding so to speak and obviously are responsible for a lot of the big push
+[3319.62 --> 3324.34]  and adoption for open source and maybe even some growth uh maybe somebody's gonna punch me in the
+[3324.34 --> 3329.70]  face for saying this but like just growth in the developer ecosystem you can't you can't uh not
+[3329.70 --> 3336.34]  recognize their power and their um you know their push for this so i just kind of wondering it seems like
+[3336.34 --> 3342.26]  uh because t edit is so easy to use in this respect by money a repo it doesn't really have to live
+[3342.26 --> 3347.86]  on github it's just that's your means right now right and like you can use the web version today
+[3347.86 --> 3351.22]  mount to github repo and edit it so if you just want a quick way to edit your git repos
+[3351.86 --> 3358.18]  just go to t edit.creationx.com paste in your token and edit anything at will we got uh several links that
+[3358.18 --> 3362.74]  uh this will be a link filled show notes episode so if you're listening to this
+[3362.74 --> 3369.46]  uh go back to the change log find the episode i think this is 124 if i remember correctly um
+[3370.42 --> 3374.90]  uh and also on five by five the the links will be there or even in your podcast catcher so
+[3375.46 --> 3380.42]  we'll we'll share tons of links so if you can't hear us or you weren't sure uh check the links we'll
+[3380.42 --> 3385.06]  we'll have a bunch of show notes for this but uh jared is there anything else you want to mention
+[3385.06 --> 3390.90]  before we start uh closing off the show well i did want to ask about jack but i'm not sure if we
+[3390.90 --> 3394.58]  have time to even you might have to have him back just for a whole entire show maybe you can
+[3395.14 --> 3400.74]  maybe do a quick overview and we'll have you back to talk about jack all right um jack is a fun
+[3400.74 --> 3407.62]  project my goal there is to make a language that's easy to learn yet powerful it's basically a mix of
+[3407.62 --> 3413.62]  javascript and lua and i'm really excited to actually use it someday i haven't had time for it yet
+[3415.30 --> 3418.90]  so is it backburnered because of t edit at this point it's way backburnered it's i've
+[3418.90 --> 3426.42]  been working on it since before coffee script wow that's a long time yeah uh and then you also
+[3426.42 --> 3434.10]  mentioned john which is a i guess a sub brother subsister so i guess right subset subset yeah it's a
+[3434.74 --> 3443.22]  it's jack object notation okay so john is to jack as json is to javascript so in t edit all the config
+[3443.22 --> 3448.74]  files and that one file that opens up with the instructions those are all basically john format
+[3449.46 --> 3454.34]  so it's it's just a subset of jack that's the data format and it's a strict superset of json so you
+[3454.34 --> 3458.66]  could write json and that would work but the quotes are optional the commas at the end are optional you
+[3458.66 --> 3463.86]  can have comments in line it's a it's a little more flexible than json you decided against jill on that
+[3463.86 --> 3473.54]  one huh yeah didn't fit the acronym yeah we can yeah that's that's neat though so i i guess uh yeah for
+[3473.54 --> 3478.42]  one i mean i just uh i'm not even kid when i said i almost fell over with uh watching your videos like
+[3478.42 --> 3483.38]  wow this is insane what you're doing and you're definitely leading the charge in that that's that's
+[3483.38 --> 3489.62]  for sure so um i one way we close the show off is we have a couple questions i don't think we had
+[3489.62 --> 3493.22]  these questions whenever you first came on the show back when you're talking about lua i think in the
+[3493.22 --> 3498.82]  early 20s of the change log um but one one question we ask and you may have already asked
+[3498.82 --> 3504.18]  or answered this during the call but to be blatantly clear what does it call to arms for your projects
+[3504.18 --> 3508.74]  you know js get i think that's pretty much complete but um obviously you're probably still accepting
+[3508.74 --> 3515.46]  code uh to that but how how can how can the general public listening to this either step up and help you
+[3515.46 --> 3521.46]  code wise issues wise how can the community step up and help you so it's it's to the point where other
+[3521.46 --> 3527.86]  people can code without getting in the way i have a lot of issues what what i really need is starting
+[3527.86 --> 3533.70]  in july if your company is interested in using this you can hire me to integrate it and i promise that
+[3533.70 --> 3541.70]  almost every company with that involves data or dev tools can use this in some way so if you can get
+[3541.70 --> 3546.58]  your company to hire me to help integrate this to add the features you want i want it to kind of work
+[3546.58 --> 3551.54]  like the code mirror or lua jet projects where they have corporate sponsors who add features
+[3552.66 --> 3553.86]  and then everyone can use the code
+[3556.34 --> 3561.70]  and and the what's the best way to get in touch with you you got creationx.com is your home page
+[3561.70 --> 3565.62]  we'll have that in the show notes is that is there a contact button on there or how what's the best way
+[3565.62 --> 3572.02]  to reach out to you i hope there's a contact button i don't know i mean my my email is probably
+[3572.02 --> 3579.38]  the best my email is public on my github it's tim at creationx.com gotcha you yeah that works and uh
+[3579.94 --> 3585.22]  i guess the next question which is is usually a fun question so i mean it doesn't have i'm considering
+[3585.22 --> 3590.74]  your background i'm assuming you'll be talking about uh programming to some degree but what would
+[3590.74 --> 3603.38]  you be doing if you weren't doing what you're doing good question if i wasn't doing the js get
+[3603.38 --> 3608.90]  to edit stuff yeah this mission we're talking about on this show like if you weren't trying to put all
+[3608.90 --> 3613.38]  your passion all of your effort and all of your time into that either through your own free time or
+[3613.38 --> 3619.86]  supported time you know if you weren't doing that what would you be doing i would probably be
+[3620.74 --> 3626.82]  oh i don't know if i wasn't programming i'd be making things that's for sure i i make things
+[3626.82 --> 3632.66]  with paper with wood with whatever if it was computer related i'd probably be writing libraries
+[3632.66 --> 3639.62]  template engines compilers that's that's still pretty much related to this i i'd be making something
+[3639.62 --> 3646.58]  for sure i am always making things i'm always creating that's why my my handle the creationix is
+[3646.58 --> 3652.74]  the word creation and then ix from linux from unix i create open things that's what i do i was
+[3652.74 --> 3659.78]  thinking that uh the x part kind of gave it away but i was i wasn't sure for sure yep i i create things
+[3659.78 --> 3667.22]  and then i open them up that's what i do and i guess uh our last question we ask is uh i don't know if you
+[3667.22 --> 3672.50]  answered this your first time around but uh who's your programming hero like who's inspired you who's
+[3672.50 --> 3677.46]  help lead you who's encouraged you anybody it can be one person could be a couple people
+[3677.46 --> 3683.94]  whomever oh i got i got lots of heroes um name them all that's fine all right there's a couple language
+[3683.94 --> 3689.22]  designers i like i like matt's from ruby he's a really cool guy i've met him in person i like brendan
+[3689.22 --> 3696.50]  ike from javascript they're they're very different people but i like them both um i'm i'm impressed with
+[3696.50 --> 3702.66]  mike paul for the way he gets paid to work on luiget even though i know very little about his
+[3702.66 --> 3709.46]  actual person he's quite cryptic oh i'm gonna butcher his name but um the code mirror guy is it
+[3709.46 --> 3716.42]  marine how do you say his name i don't know what look it up the the author of code mirror
+[3717.30 --> 3722.26]  and turn js and the eloquent javascript book he he is amazing i love what he's done
+[3722.26 --> 3726.82]  let me look behind me i have it on my shelf yeah the big yellow book that book is great
+[3727.30 --> 3733.06]  let's see i'll try and he's good he's i've been meaning to reach out to him too i'm gonna say
+[3733.06 --> 3737.86]  marriage and have her back have her back yeah i'm sure i butchered the name i probably did too
+[3737.86 --> 3744.50]  sorry about that i think he's awesome so yeah i i like those people i think they're cool awesome
+[3744.50 --> 3747.62]  we'll do our best to to do some digging too and make sure we get some links in the show notes so if
+[3747.62 --> 3752.34]  you're i know one reason i like asking that question on the show is just it kind of gives
+[3752.34 --> 3757.62]  some insight to who inspires you and they're not always um people that are very public like you'd
+[3757.62 --> 3763.38]  mentioned you don't know so much about um one particular person just because they're sort of
+[3763.38 --> 3768.74]  just not very public about what they do so but their work is and that's what inspires you
+[3770.34 --> 3776.66]  uh yeah i think that's that's this has been a fun show man i know that uh t edit i again i'm glad
+[3776.66 --> 3782.50]  you said t edit because i was going to call it ted it um just based on the the the phonetic
+[3782.50 --> 3788.34]  sounding of it i suppose i was going to sound it out versus thinking just t edit but uh tim thanks
+[3788.34 --> 3793.30]  so much for joining us on today's show i know that um you know we'll definitely help you out if we can we
+[3794.26 --> 3798.90]  uh we'll do whatever we can to also in the future now or in the future just promote ways that the
+[3798.90 --> 3803.78]  community can support you whether it's through funding or whatever so if ever you need a friend to
+[3803.78 --> 3809.30]  to help you out we'll we'll be there for you but um before we close the call i want to give another
+[3809.30 --> 3814.98]  shout out to our sponsors digital ocean top towel and snap ci for supporting the show thank you so
+[3814.98 --> 3819.94]  much for your support and if you uh if you're a listener and you haven't yet done this subscribe
+[3819.94 --> 3824.10]  to the change law weekly it's been on a small hiatus but there's no reason not to sign up because
+[3824.10 --> 3830.58]  we are bringing it back uh we get death threats and emails daily about where's this awesome email i've
+[3830.58 --> 3834.58]  been getting and why did you stop doing it so we can't stop shipping that so the change
+[3834.58 --> 3840.02]  law.com slash weekly to sign up uh jared thanks so much for joining me on the call today and tim you
+[3840.02 --> 3844.98]  as well and the listeners for listening so until the next time we speak maybe about jack let's say
+[3844.98 --> 3858.10]  goodbye see ya all right see you guys later bye
+[3860.58 --> 3872.66]  bye
+[3872.90 --> 3877.06]  you

The PHP Language Specification_transcript.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,617 @@
+[0.00 --> 12.64]  welcome back everyone this is the change log and i'm your host
+[12.64 --> 18.16]  adams dakowiak this is episode 129 jared and i talked to sarah goldman about her
+[18.16 --> 25.02]  awesome work at facebook and making php fast awesome and specced this entire conversation
+[25.02 --> 30.64]  is about getting the php spec out there facebook leading the way but more importantly sarah
+[30.64 --> 36.94]  leading the way on that front this show is significantly delayed sarah you're awesome
+[36.94 --> 44.22]  i'm really sorry please accept my apology this show is sponsored by digital ocean code ship and
+[44.22 --> 50.04]  top tile we'll tell you a bit more about code ship and top tile later in the show but our friends at
+[50.04 --> 56.38]  digital ocean simple cloud hosting built for developers in 55 seconds you can have a cloud
+[56.38 --> 62.72]  server with full root access and it just doesn't get any easier than that pricing plans started only
+[62.72 --> 69.66]  five bucks a month for half a gig of ram 20 gigs of ssd drive space one cpu and one terabyte of
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+[75.88 --> 81.72]  newest location london and you can easily migrate your data in between any of those regions making
+[81.72 --> 87.98]  sure that your data is always closest to your users use the promo code changelog november in all
+[87.98 --> 94.56]  lowercase again changelog november all lowercase very important to get a ten dollar hosting credit
+[94.56 --> 99.56]  when you sign up head to digital ocean.com right now to get started and now on to the show
+[99.56 --> 106.92]  we're joined today by sarah goldman she is man sarah i'm so impressed with what you're doing you work
+[106.92 --> 112.58]  at facebook so that's kind of a big deal but not only do you work there but you also make facebook
+[112.58 --> 118.38]  fast which i think that that's been like the mantra of facebook to be fast since the beginning so
+[118.38 --> 126.18]  today we're joined by my managing editor jared santo and also sarah goldman from facebook to talk about
+[126.18 --> 132.14]  some cool stuff happening in the php world specifically the php spec that's brand new so
+[132.14 --> 139.62]  sarah welcome to the show thanks for having me so i guess the best way to start navigating this
+[139.62 --> 146.28]  conversation might be to tee up the post that you shared on the php mailing list which was sort of
+[146.28 --> 152.02]  the announcement it was kind of at oscon and um and i'm not sure if it's oscon or oscon i kind of
+[152.02 --> 156.42]  wasn't sure i've never been there so i've never heard anybody actually say it until just now so
+[156.42 --> 161.74]  is it oscon or is it oscon you know i always say oscon but that doesn't mean that i'm right
+[161.74 --> 168.02]  what do you think jared i'm gonna go with oscon so i think oscon too okay so i wish i didn't say
+[168.02 --> 171.80]  that at all then now because i feel like an idiot for thinking it's oscon why would it be os now that
+[171.80 --> 176.54]  you actually say it out loud it does seem like it should be os it's open source con so that would
+[176.54 --> 181.64]  yeah i don't know gotta just that's what i was thinking who says i should write some os software
+[181.64 --> 190.18]  yeah right good point that's true this is a heated debate so this post was on tuesday july 22nd which
+[190.18 --> 194.38]  wasn't too long ago but long enough ago that's a lot of stuff's happening between now and then so
+[194.38 --> 200.10]  help us uh and jared i don't want to speak for you but i know that i'm pretty much a php novice like i've
+[200.10 --> 206.24]  done some stuff with wordpress i've never written anything uh any of any extent that sarah's been to so
+[206.24 --> 211.12]  i'm totally a novice in the room just asking questions so um i would consider myself an
+[211.12 --> 217.90]  intermediate so intermediate yeah okay not a pro but i have some experience so hold our hands along
+[217.90 --> 223.54]  the way yes please do please do but tee this up what what what happened what is what does this mean
+[223.54 --> 230.58]  for the php community well i mean so php has been around for like 18 years now and just sort of
+[230.58 --> 236.68]  grasp that in your mind for a second um and in that 18 years it's gone completely as an organic
+[236.68 --> 242.48]  growth right it's sort of rasmus wanted something to display his resume better so he put together some
+[242.48 --> 250.20]  scripts and to do that and then that kind of turned into a more of a compiled program to turn some html
+[250.20 --> 255.02]  with a few little bits of code and into something real and it's all been organic ever since then even
+[255.02 --> 261.86]  when andy and zev got involved to uh build php3 with more like real engine like you would find in
+[261.86 --> 268.52]  a any kind of sensible language it was still organic because they were just trying to scratch their itch
+[268.52 --> 273.94]  um and it's been a whole bunch of it scratching and what you wind up with is what got popularly
+[273.94 --> 279.78]  described as a fractal of bad design um and you know a lot of us kind of take that tongue in cheek
+[279.78 --> 283.68]  because well all right it might be a fractal of bad design but it runs most of the internet so
+[283.68 --> 290.48]  whatever yeah um but it's done all this without really having a clear picture of itself it doesn't
+[290.48 --> 299.36]  know um how do you define what is proper php all of the uh the the really serious languages like c c
+[299.36 --> 305.42]  plus plus they have these massive documents that describe um what syntax should look like what's
+[305.42 --> 309.94]  valid grammar that sort of thing and we've been talking about it i'm i'm sorry i'm going to say we
+[309.94 --> 313.54]  and us in a lot of different contexts today i'm going to try and keep track of which context that
+[313.54 --> 319.90]  is um we the php community um have been talking for a lot of years about how we kind of need to
+[319.90 --> 327.00]  formalize what the language is you know we need to say all right these are the behaviors you should
+[327.00 --> 334.26]  expect from the parser and and what uh a script a well-written script actually looks like as opposed
+[334.26 --> 339.18]  to having two different ways of doing if statements that look completely different or whatever it happens
+[339.18 --> 344.72]  to be um so it's always been like yeah we should do that we should do that we should do that but who
+[344.72 --> 349.14]  wants to write documentation right none of the programmers i don't want to write documentation
+[349.14 --> 356.68]  so fast forward years and years and years facebook's got this hhvm thing that we've built for
+[356.68 --> 362.46]  uh running face learning facebook code very fast and hopefully other people's php code very fast
+[362.46 --> 369.54]  um and we're thinking well what can we do to give back really because like facebook was built on php it
+[369.54 --> 375.08]  was built on the public version of php you know zuck sitting in his dorm room putting together the first
+[375.08 --> 382.72]  facebook.net or whatever um was just running regular php um funnily enough probably some code that i wrote in
+[382.72 --> 390.64]  there um that's kind of cool yeah no he's my boss go figure um so what can we do to to give back and show
+[390.64 --> 396.48]  that we're serious about taking the php language seriously you know we want php to be seen as a
+[396.48 --> 403.30]  better language instead of the fractal of bad design so we said well here's something that not
+[403.30 --> 408.44]  only has the community sort of been asking for this and hoping that they can put together a spec properly
+[408.44 --> 414.84]  but this will actually help hhvm at the same time because we want to be able to write a parser that is
+[414.84 --> 421.20]  fully compliant with php but how do we do that if we don't know what php is apart from looking at the
+[421.20 --> 427.04]  source code so it's not a completely selfless gesture either so let's so we pause there for just a second
+[427.04 --> 434.68]  maybe um for those listening and kind of catching up um real quick mention what is hhvm oh of course
+[434.68 --> 442.00]  i'm sorry um hhvm stands for hip-hop virtual machine um it's the basically third generation of
+[442.00 --> 450.76]  a compiler that facebook's been working on to uh to run php code it's um ostensibly uh php syntax
+[450.76 --> 458.50]  compatible um the the problem we ran into about five years ago or so at this point is that um php's
+[458.50 --> 465.50]  code base is massive and we have a couple of users so we need to be able to run that php as fast as
+[465.50 --> 473.60]  possible uh changing to another language is possible but it is obviously a large task we have
+[473.60 --> 480.08]  something like 10 to the seventh lines of code um that's not a small project very big wow uh yeah
+[480.08 --> 484.18]  very big i remember reading about your choice of mercurial versus get to and it was you know the
+[484.18 --> 489.54]  choice between those two version controls was also based on how larger larger code base was and how many
+[489.54 --> 496.80]  developers have committing to it on a daily basis too yeah no so our our main code base of php um i
+[496.80 --> 501.46]  don't touch it often i'm mostly touching c plus plus code but sometimes i go ahead and touch the the php
+[501.46 --> 508.22]  repo and if i'm doing the checkout on git because we we're still supporting both modes at the moment
+[508.22 --> 516.76]  um i can say git pull and then i'll walk away you know go down have lunch uh check myself in the
+[516.76 --> 522.28]  america all the time right come back but a long time is the point yeah um i do it on mercurial and
+[522.28 --> 530.48]  i just say hg update and done and now it's done it is blazingly faster we might need to earmark that
+[530.48 --> 535.50]  topic just just for the listeners sake because i know we covered that on the changelog um i know it's
+[535.50 --> 540.08]  a big deal anytime facebook makes choices and it sort of provides this rift for others to follow in the
+[540.08 --> 545.38]  community because because of your sheer size and also because of your engineering team and the talent you
+[545.38 --> 550.64]  have you know you obviously tend to have a pretty good opinion any pretty definitive opinion that
+[550.64 --> 556.90]  sort of provides this divide to the community and we covered uh just quickly your your um your choice
+[556.90 --> 561.40]  of mercurial over git and i thought it was just enlightening the reasons why you chose it
+[561.40 --> 566.58]  yeah and there's more reasons than just speed um and i'm not going to go into all those because
+[566.58 --> 571.84]  that's actually not my area of expertise and i'll probably get some things wrong um i do just want
+[571.84 --> 576.54]  to say that i have a lot of love for git i don't want to poop on git about saying it's slower than
+[576.54 --> 582.50]  mercurial in all cases it's it was a decision that facebook made because our code base particularly
+[582.50 --> 590.08]  needed um uh speed to get developer efficiency up um and that's developer efficiency is one of our
+[590.08 --> 597.02]  watch words when it comes to what we want to focus on um focus on 10 to the 7th lines of code that is
+[597.02 --> 602.50]  just astounding yeah yeah you know you have a lot you know you have a large app when you consider
+[602.50 --> 607.58]  you know reworking the underpinnings less work than actually you're rewriting in a separate language
+[607.58 --> 612.18]  well really i mean that that's what it comes down to it's like what's what's going to be easier
+[612.18 --> 617.76]  rewriting in another language or making the language better right can you give us maybe a snapshot too of
+[617.76 --> 624.66]  the importance of hhvm to facebook because i remember reading uh um and help me piece this together
+[624.66 --> 629.86]  this is totally up um you know off the cuff here but i remember reading a blog post about and i can't
+[629.86 --> 633.70]  remember the names of who's involved so you could probably even name them if you'd like to but it was
+[633.70 --> 637.64]  basically like down to the wire of getting this done or you'd have to like do something massive to
+[637.64 --> 643.20]  get this just-in-time virtual machine in place to kind of read php code and from what i can understand
+[643.20 --> 648.96]  basically decompile that down to binary or something other way some other way of doing it was like this
+[648.96 --> 653.54]  big deal and it was like down to the minute and a five-year-long project and finally you had cracked it
+[653.54 --> 660.08]  can you kind of give a snapshot of that of that moment um that might be slightly dramatic dramatized
+[660.08 --> 665.80]  for internet effect i'm not sure okay because it seemed dramatic to me i i will certainly say that
+[665.80 --> 671.04]  you know when we when we started building the hip-hop project um which initially by the way was not a
+[671.04 --> 677.88]  virtual machine or or a just-in-time compiler it was actually a a php to c++ transpiler um when we
+[677.88 --> 684.00]  first got that project going we actually were sort of hitting the limits of how much blood we could
+[684.00 --> 690.10]  squeeze out of the php turnip for our code base and the number of users we had um we literally could
+[690.10 --> 696.18]  not buy hardware fast enough to be able to serve up every user that wanted to hit the site um so
+[696.18 --> 702.68]  in in that sense it was probably a bit of a crunch time it was it was a bit of um god what are we going
+[702.68 --> 709.62]  to do do we need to train everybody to write c++ code and get this thing uh running at at real speeds
+[709.62 --> 715.36]  are we going to pick up i don't know compiled python or something like that i don't know um
+[715.36 --> 721.18]  consider the undertaking when you have that many engineers working on that much code
+[721.18 --> 730.26]  um how long is that going to take um turned out the uh the process of transpiling php to p to c++ code
+[730.26 --> 736.94]  at the very base of it wasn't all that difficult um i don't want to take it away from him from uh
+[736.94 --> 744.50]  high ping who wrote the first version of of hip-hop but um the the basic of of just doing that bits of
+[744.50 --> 750.72]  transpiling uh got us a huge performance win i think it was like an 80 win right off the bat and it came
+[750.72 --> 757.02]  to like a two and a half times win within like a year or something like that um that's a huge gain
+[757.02 --> 763.38]  when you can run um two and a half times fewer servers right absolutely um and that just gives
+[763.38 --> 772.88]  you that breathing room to say oh thank god oh you know um that ultimately uh led to the vm project
+[772.88 --> 777.52]  because we looked at this transpiler option and we said well this has got a bunch of problems with it
+[777.52 --> 782.88]  number one our developer environment now looks nothing like a production environment and it can't
+[782.88 --> 787.42]  because you can you imagine as a developer if you make one tiny change to a little php file
+[787.42 --> 794.24]  you then have to recompile all of these millions of lines of code just to see what difference comes
+[794.24 --> 799.48]  out on your web page you would run screaming from that yes what what was the compile time do you
+[799.48 --> 810.66]  recall like um so uh i i yeah i can say that number sorry i was trying to decide if i could say that
+[810.66 --> 817.80]  number um at the time that we switched off of the transpiler onto the vm um i want to say it took
+[817.80 --> 823.86]  about 20 minutes to build the entire site but that's not on a single machine that's actually on a fleet of
+[823.86 --> 828.68]  machines because we're using just cc to do this wow i think if you tried to do this on a single machine
+[828.68 --> 835.42]  um it would be like you know a day's process or something like that it was definitely not something
+[835.42 --> 841.62]  that developers could do so developers uh for a while wound up doing just regular php because it's
+[841.62 --> 847.88]  close enough but then we started adding functionality to the language like generators for example we've had
+[847.88 --> 856.72]  for years and php just got them uh in version 5.5 so uh we had these sort of hacks in place like hphpi
+[856.72 --> 861.18]  which was uh slower than regular php but it worked for development purposes
+[861.18 --> 866.70]  and and things like that and it was it was just kind of messy it led to some weird inconsistencies
+[866.70 --> 875.36]  between dev and production excuse me um so that led off the the vm project um and we we had a bunch
+[875.36 --> 881.76]  of guys who who came from microsoft uh at that time uh they've worked on the clr um so they've built
+[881.76 --> 888.02]  you know just in time compilers before recently in fact um so they brought a lot of that uh information
+[888.02 --> 895.18]  to bear and that um i think i think that kicked off somewhere around like 09 something like that
+[895.18 --> 901.36]  slightly before we actually released hip-hop to the world in 2010 um but it didn't really
+[901.36 --> 911.12]  hit the point of running production code until uh january of 2013 so it took a while to get that one right
+[911.12 --> 918.40]  if i can maybe do a call back to our last show too jared um i want to make a note i guess to kind
+[918.40 --> 922.92]  of i guess go from where we are to talking about the php spec and what it's actually written and it's
+[922.92 --> 929.14]  kind of a an aside but a throwback to our most recent show which was uh just released today episode
+[929.14 --> 936.20]  127 talking about uh keeping a change log or the project keep a change log from olive oil account uh which
+[936.20 --> 941.84]  i could not say correctly on the show but uh yeah it's just whatever that's i can't get over it
+[941.84 --> 946.52]  anyways um what you say though sarah is that the first thing you'll notice is that it's written in
+[946.52 --> 953.32]  markdown um and that there's this slight lean towards um something called restructured text and
+[953.32 --> 957.92]  it's something that i have an interface with can you kind of talk a bit about you know your choice
+[957.92 --> 966.04]  of what to write the spec in well the original spec was actually written in ms word um we the the
+[966.04 --> 972.00]  contractor that we hired to work on the spec um he's got like a lot of spec chops um he's worked on
+[972.00 --> 978.72]  the c spec before um zim's rex and i'm gonna butcher his last name jash j-a-s-c-h-e something like
+[978.72 --> 983.84]  that that's hard to say i can't pronounce last names either um he's worked on on specs before but his tool
+[983.84 --> 991.00]  of choice is ms word so god bless him let him do what he needs to do um we're not gonna put that into
+[991.00 --> 996.12]  any kind of open source uh collaborative uh editing system because that just doesn't work for that
+[996.12 --> 1001.72]  um so we had to pick something um we look at github we say oh okay markdown is natively supported
+[1001.72 --> 1007.68]  like by github it seems like it's probably expressive enough for what we need to do so let's just use that
+[1007.68 --> 1013.62]  as a starting point and we can switch off after that um when i made the original announcement at
+[1013.62 --> 1020.34]  ofcon and released that sort of pdf of the sample chapter uh i asked for people's opinions you know
+[1020.34 --> 1026.66]  what makes sense to you guys you know what formats do we want to be uh editing it in um and
+[1026.66 --> 1033.90]  in those responses from the php mailing list not from internally at facebook um there were
+[1033.90 --> 1038.94]  there were of course some bike shedding about oh maybe we should go this direction well this one
+[1038.94 --> 1044.72]  has this advantage that one has that advantage maybe ascii docs the right way to go um as to as
+[1044.72 --> 1047.82]  is pretty typical with with those kind of forms you know there were a lot of answers
+[1047.82 --> 1051.90]  slightly towards restructured text from what i could see but nothing really definitive
+[1051.90 --> 1058.08]  um at the end of the day um the guy who was actually doing the transformation from
+[1058.08 --> 1062.78]  uh word doc to something sensible joel marcy who i was hoping was going to be on this podcast
+[1062.78 --> 1069.36]  but he didn't make it bummer joel you couldn't make it man i miss you where are you joel um at at the
+[1069.36 --> 1073.28]  end of the day he had already started migrate uh migrating things into word doc and they were looking
+[1073.28 --> 1079.58]  great so i just said you know what finish the word doc and we will fix that later there's always
+[1079.58 --> 1086.66]  time for pull requests um and sure enough um one of the first big uh commits that was done by somebody
+[1086.66 --> 1092.56]  outside of facebook was to take this big monolithic markdown file and split it up into chapters which
+[1092.56 --> 1096.58]  was something i was initially asking joel for and he's like i got so much going on i can't even think
+[1096.58 --> 1103.76]  about that much so it's great to see the php community have been so well receptive of this
+[1103.76 --> 1109.02]  like like i was i was worried that there was going to be some sort of like oh facebook's trying to take
+[1109.02 --> 1114.58]  over the language by imposing the spec on us right but it's it's really just been sort of like oh gosh
+[1114.58 --> 1121.48]  thanks guys we we were looking for this where'd you find it um so how long has this project been in
+[1121.48 --> 1126.06]  the making is it i mean i know 20 years the language the kind of story we've kind of painted here but
+[1126.06 --> 1131.78]  you know how long has it been on your particular mind to sort of start lifting this up and actually
+[1131.78 --> 1137.18]  making it happen even from your perspective or facebook's um i want to say that we made the
+[1137.18 --> 1142.32]  decision that we were going to write a spec and publish one somewhere around last february um i think
+[1142.32 --> 1147.14]  we actually started like properly working on it you know sorting out rex's contract things like that
+[1147.14 --> 1153.24]  um i want to say we properly started working on it around march or possibly april i can't say for sure
+[1153.24 --> 1160.66]  um so just this year not very long so it seems like specs are far more important when you have
+[1160.66 --> 1165.00]  many implementations you know you look at something like javascript you know you have all these browser
+[1165.00 --> 1173.08]  implementers um and they all need a spec to conform to was it is hhvm the second major php implementation
+[1173.08 --> 1180.10]  um or are there is there a more diverse ecosystems i'm not aware of um it depends on what you mean by
+[1180.10 --> 1186.68]  um i consider it the second major um but a lot of people who have worked on other implementations
+[1186.68 --> 1194.74]  would certainly disagree with me um there's uh implementations like phalinger uh phc um what's
+[1194.74 --> 1200.12]  the other one i'm thinking of hippie vm uh which was released very recently and uh has spent a lot of
+[1200.12 --> 1207.12]  time comparing themselves to us so i'm not going to say they they picked their name as a as a bit of a
+[1207.12 --> 1213.80]  gesture but maybe um so there's there's a number of php implementations out there i haven't seen
+[1213.80 --> 1218.52]  a lot of chatter about many of them oh roads and i forgot to mention them they're another
+[1218.52 --> 1225.50]  implementation but i'm pretty sure they're gone um so having having a spec is definitely important
+[1225.50 --> 1231.86]  to bringing all of these different implementations together um but i think i think that's not the only
+[1231.86 --> 1238.04]  benefit that we get out of it because um if you look actually at php itself um it goes through these
+[1238.04 --> 1244.34]  you know version cycles four to five was a big jump um five to seven now is going to be a big jump by
+[1244.34 --> 1251.84]  the way we're skipping six um why uh there's history behind six um i don't think you want me to get in
+[1251.84 --> 1257.34]  there is that very much like fertile six yeah this is like you know certain hotels they they don't have
+[1257.34 --> 1262.22]  a 13th floor you know you go from the 12th straight to the 14th but come on those people
+[1262.22 --> 1267.22]  on the 14th know what floor they're really on that's right oh that's a that's a laugh that's a
+[1267.22 --> 1272.74]  mitch head for joke but you laugh but in the discussion about what version to call it seven was actually
+[1272.74 --> 1279.48]  highlighted as a lucky number oh is it yeah uh humans and our numbers uh no we were going to
+[1279.48 --> 1285.60]  make unicode into the language for php6 um like four years ago or something like that and the project
+[1285.60 --> 1290.18]  got really far along to the point that even books were published about it um those of us who worked
+[1290.18 --> 1296.28]  on the unicode implementation felt sort of a you know a connection to that um and then the project
+[1296.28 --> 1303.24]  kind of died because of a number of reasons and so there was never a six um so a discussion came up
+[1303.24 --> 1308.84]  about what if it picks six or seven i don't want to belabor it bottom line we pick seven um
+[1308.84 --> 1313.98]  gosh what was i talking about before we went off on a tangent spec and the next version kind of
+[1313.98 --> 1323.38]  uh oh yes so yeah so the usefulness yes uh the usefulness of the spec is um partially to give
+[1323.38 --> 1328.26]  the php project something to make sure that you know we don't break things accidentally along the
+[1328.26 --> 1333.58]  way and we have broken things accidentally on a number of occasions um remind me to explain to you
+[1333.58 --> 1342.78]  why zero x zero plus two equals four sometimes um it's also important for some of the uh revisions
+[1342.78 --> 1348.88]  we're making to the language right now um there are two uh rfcs up on the php list one for unif some
+[1348.88 --> 1355.34]  what's called uniform variable syntax um this is to make it sort of consistent when you say something
+[1355.34 --> 1362.60]  like uh dollar a square brackets some subscript uh parentheses some function call arrow some method
+[1362.60 --> 1367.30]  call whatever you happen to do piling these things together what's the right evaluation order
+[1367.30 --> 1372.98]  left to right right to left um middle outwards which is actually um sort of like what it currently
+[1372.98 --> 1379.94]  does and makes no sense um unifying that and making it make sense um another guy nikita popov um who's
+[1379.94 --> 1386.90]  been really um uh a big contributor in the php circles in the past few years um he's working on an abstract
+[1386.90 --> 1394.10]  abstract syntax tree for php which is also another huge thing um php's compiler doesn't have an ast it
+[1394.10 --> 1399.98]  says here here are my parse uh uh expressions coming through let's just compile those straight
+[1399.98 --> 1406.02]  to byte code and don't look at the overall program at all um so he's introducing an ast which is
+[1406.02 --> 1411.92]  obviously a big opportunity to screw up the language um having again a conformance suite and a spec
+[1411.92 --> 1413.76]  helps to make sure that that doesn't happen
+[1413.76 --> 1420.12]  all right let's pause the show for just a minute give a shout out to our sponsor code ship
+[1420.12 --> 1425.48]  code ship is a hosted continuous deployment service that just works we've been working with
+[1425.48 --> 1430.44]  code ship for quite a while now we really really enjoy not only the product they built but the
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+[1459.84 --> 1464.14]  it really is just so quick get started today with their free plan and make sure you use the code
+[1464.14 --> 1470.20]  the changelog podcast that's really important use the changelog podcast and when you do that you can
+[1470.20 --> 1477.08]  get 20 off for three months on any plan you choose head to code ship.io and tell them the
+[1477.08 --> 1484.98]  changelog sent you well let's let's talk about this you know this uh backlash that didn't happen
+[1484.98 --> 1489.62]  you know that what you maybe perhaps feared is that the community would say okay this is facebook
+[1489.62 --> 1495.06]  trying to you know grab a stranglehold around php the language by introducing the spec
+[1495.06 --> 1500.16]  can you and i don't necessarily believe that but could you still speak to those fears perhaps
+[1500.16 --> 1505.04]  um maybe from facebook's perspective and then maybe you know you you like you said we have all
+[1505.04 --> 1508.68]  these different we's you know you represent facebook a little bit and then you also represent
+[1508.68 --> 1515.06]  just the php community and how you balance those two as well would be interesting um well yeah i
+[1515.06 --> 1518.28]  mean i'll start i'll speak to the second part of that first because i've actually been working
+[1518.28 --> 1524.94]  on php for about the past dozen years or so um so i've got a lot of skin in the game in terms of
+[1524.94 --> 1531.30]  code contributed to uh the php source code and and involvement with the community of i i wrote
+[1531.30 --> 1537.22]  pretty much the book on writing extensions for php um but at the same time i'm also working here for
+[1537.22 --> 1544.86]  for a for facebook on hhvm largely because of that php work um i wrote i'm doing things like writing the
+[1544.86 --> 1550.92]  actual extension api itself on the hhvm side so i have interests on both sides of the fence and
+[1550.92 --> 1558.40]  um when i come to the list you know it's it's on the one hand it's coming with the uh history of
+[1558.40 --> 1564.08]  of like having time and skin in the game with php but it's also coming in with this yeah but she's
+[1564.08 --> 1571.30]  working on that other php thing and um how how much of what she's requesting in this rfc or whatever
+[1571.30 --> 1578.70]  is to improve hhvm so it can take over the world um i i don't think i have to tell you that there
+[1578.70 --> 1584.80]  there is um there is some degree of sort of distrust about facebook and facebook's intentions
+[1584.80 --> 1591.24]  um i mean do any google search and you'll get funny of those conspiracy theories um and some
+[1591.24 --> 1596.24]  of those come through because we're all people and we you know we we want to protect what we see is
+[1596.24 --> 1603.44]  good and you know php's open source uh philosophy i think is actually really good it's a really open
+[1603.44 --> 1610.38]  project it's got no bdfl it's got nobody saying no this is how the project must go forward and that's
+[1610.38 --> 1615.40]  why there's been no forks because what goes into the language is what the people who are actively
+[1615.40 --> 1621.86]  working on it at the time say is right for the language um so when you've got something like um
+[1621.86 --> 1628.50]  facebook suddenly making this big push on its open source uh on its uh implementation of php
+[1628.50 --> 1633.68]  saying oh we're we're making this really open source now we're making this really uh friendly to
+[1633.68 --> 1643.38]  to developers out there um and uh hey here's a spec for it you can look at that as uh gosh php's
+[1643.38 --> 1652.20]  seeing a resurgence or you can look at it as hmm embrace extend and extinguish right um so so i i have
+[1652.20 --> 1659.12]  personally gotten some of that that kickback on other um uh posts that i've put on the the mailing list
+[1659.12 --> 1665.12]  but that did not happen at all here i think everybody sort of saw the way we released this
+[1665.12 --> 1671.50]  um and the way that we you know tried to make sure that we focused on php as the source of truth and
+[1671.50 --> 1680.50]  said how can i fault this you know it's it's this is just a thing that now belongs to the php community
+[1680.50 --> 1686.76]  like um we with facebook hat on didn't maintain any control over this we said here it is public domain
+[1686.76 --> 1693.22]  license cc0 we're putting it into php's git repository so they completely control the documents
+[1693.22 --> 1699.52]  um it's it's completely out of facebook's hands at this point maybe that's where we can dig in just
+[1699.52 --> 1704.22]  a quick bit because i know we talk about licensing on the show here and there but maybe to catch up
+[1704.22 --> 1710.84]  why you chose cc0 it's it's in quotes no rights reserved can you talk about maybe the choice of that
+[1710.84 --> 1715.74]  license versus say gpl or some other license you may have chose for other uh open source that facebook
+[1715.74 --> 1722.26]  has out there um well i can only speak to it so much because i didn't specifically pick the cc0 license
+[1722.26 --> 1727.50]  um my personal favorite um for my projects is bsc license because i just like the little bits of
+[1727.50 --> 1735.08]  attribution um but like it comes down to to what your your philosophy about this sort of information
+[1735.08 --> 1738.68]  is like we're just talking about a document at the end of the day we're not even talking about software
+[1738.68 --> 1747.46]  right um you know what is going to be most useful to a project like php and like i said php is a
+[1747.46 --> 1753.42]  really open project and for something like php it makes sense to just say you know what here's some
+[1753.42 --> 1759.64]  information for the world um what what do we have to gain by putting a more restrictive license on it
+[1759.64 --> 1769.28]  very little um you mentioned gpl um i could i could see the advantage of wanting to say that if
+[1769.28 --> 1775.44]  somebody else grabs this and you know adds to it and and extends it you know we would want to make
+[1775.44 --> 1781.76]  sure that that's open and visible to everyone um i personally don't like the gpl license um
+[1781.76 --> 1787.64]  well i'm not holding you to the fence you're trying to figure out why you chose this place i
+[1787.64 --> 1793.74]  just wanted to kind of get a snapshot because mostly from the the vantage point of uh it will
+[1793.74 --> 1798.96]  right when somebody does something in the world you you want to um you know depending upon the person
+[1798.96 --> 1805.68]  obviously you want to say that person has goodwill for me so or that entity or that organization or
+[1805.68 --> 1809.72]  you know so your reputation does precede you in a way that you've done a lot for open source
+[1809.72 --> 1814.54]  and i just want to make sure that you have a chance here clearly to to say we chose this license for
+[1814.54 --> 1819.30]  this reason for the reasons it's open it's you know it's not ours it's the communities and that
+[1819.30 --> 1825.62]  kind of thing so i i didn't want to uh dang all that too far but get the point across yeah i mean the
+[1825.62 --> 1830.98]  only thing i could say about that is just like that's the beautiful thing about cc0 it's literally no
+[1830.98 --> 1837.60]  strings attached you know yeah and it's just it's a simple license it's about three lines you don't need uh
+[1837.60 --> 1842.92]  you don't need a lot of greed to understand a license like that so maybe this is just a
+[1842.92 --> 1850.46]  a left-wing question but it seems kind of an obvious one to to me but you know it's just a
+[1850.46 --> 1857.46]  document you just said that um it's not like it's code it's not like it's changing php really but what
+[1857.46 --> 1865.36]  does this spec what does having it written out um fleshed out open source uh cco uh cc0 license
+[1865.36 --> 1872.86]  attached to it what does that do what how does this how do you expect or desire for the community to
+[1872.86 --> 1879.74]  change because of this document now being there to specify how php should be it's interesting you
+[1879.74 --> 1884.24]  weren't used the phrase it's not changing the language because as it turns out it actually is okay
+[1884.24 --> 1890.78]  um one of the first payoffs that we've seen from this is um as you know people are looking through
+[1890.78 --> 1895.30]  the document a lot of pull requests coming through for simple things like grammar fixes and things
+[1895.30 --> 1900.22]  like that whatever um a few bugs have come up uh one of them that i just worked on the other day
+[1900.22 --> 1906.84]  uh noted that the spec says switch statements may only have one default block which i mean i think we
+[1906.84 --> 1914.06]  can all agree makes sense um and this user hadn't had noticed at some point in his code that he
+[1914.06 --> 1918.40]  wrote a switch statement with two default blocks and it caused a weird bug for him because he
+[1918.40 --> 1924.02]  doesn't understand why that first default block wasn't getting executed um and so he filed a bug
+[1924.02 --> 1928.34]  report he said this doesn't match php allows multiple default statements and when you have
+[1928.34 --> 1931.80]  multiple it'll execute the last one which i think we can all agree is a bit clowny
+[1931.80 --> 1938.44]  um so what should we do with that should we fix the spec to say multiple are allowed because that's
+[1938.44 --> 1944.96]  what php does well no we shouldn't actually because that's really silly code um and i put it exactly
+[1944.96 --> 1952.00]  that way to the list i said this is this is silly behavior that php supports probably by accident let's
+[1952.00 --> 1958.80]  fix the language so it matches the spec so that's what we're doing and and that's the benefit of having
+[1958.80 --> 1963.48]  that spec you've got a lot of eyes looking at it this and you've got that lived experience of these
+[1963.48 --> 1967.96]  developers out in the wild who are saying that doesn't jive with what i know
+[1967.96 --> 1974.96]  so facebook has another uh language that they're very interested in their very own hack language
+[1974.96 --> 1979.80]  which i think they announced was it this year i think it was 2014 it was a few months yeah i think
+[1979.80 --> 1986.32]  it was in april yeah april ish we know hhbm compiles to hack and php um how does hack fit into
+[1986.32 --> 1990.08]  this landscape with facebook obviously it's not going to affect the php spec or will it
+[1990.08 --> 1997.76]  um so hack um we are writing a second spec actually um rex is already busy back at work
+[1997.76 --> 2003.84]  writing a spec for the second word document open huh a second word document yes command or was that
+[2003.84 --> 2010.28]  control new never mind uh when that's done um we're most likely going to publish that as well of course
+[2010.28 --> 2015.54]  that will be under the the facebook namespace on on github or uh possibly the hhbm namespace i'm not sure
+[2015.54 --> 2023.12]  um because it does make sense for us to own that document at least for now um hack is sort of it's
+[2023.12 --> 2028.70]  you could describe it as its own language but i think if you know any php you can look at a hack
+[2028.70 --> 2033.56]  document and immediately understand what it does because it's it's really more like php plus plus
+[2033.56 --> 2039.36]  um which for those of you keeping track of php's rules uh if you have a string that you post
+[2039.36 --> 2044.68]  uh increment that would turn out phq try and pronounce that in your head i'll leave that to you
+[2044.68 --> 2054.76]  um so hack is uh as i said php plus plus uh it's a different open tag it drops a whole bunch of
+[2054.76 --> 2060.96]  some of the clownier bits of php the things that we look at and we say why is that even in the language
+[2060.96 --> 2065.56]  um and it can do so safely because obviously if you're writing hack code this is not something
+[2065.56 --> 2071.44]  that was written in 1989 and still needs to function right sorry i meant 1999 89 is a bit too far back
+[2071.44 --> 2078.76]  um it also adds a number of things that um we noticed sort of developing our own code base
+[2078.76 --> 2082.94]  it would have been really nice to have and we're not really sure why php didn't add them
+[2082.94 --> 2089.96]  um i know why but that's another story um things like uh scalar type hinting um php only allows type
+[2089.96 --> 2094.06]  hinting for arrays and objects so we add type hinting for everything we even go beyond that
+[2094.06 --> 2100.20]  parameterized type hinting um the sort of workhorse of php the array that can be a vector or a map or a
+[2100.20 --> 2105.74]  set or whatever um we actually define these specifically as a vector a map a set a pair
+[2105.74 --> 2112.26]  whatever else um so you can define more uh specialized structures that can behave more sensibly under the
+[2112.26 --> 2117.86]  hood if i've got a vector event that should literally be in memory int int int int in in a nice
+[2117.86 --> 2122.74]  type packed array um so there's there's a performance gain to be had there but there's
+[2122.74 --> 2127.98]  also a readability gain to be had you don't have to look at you know dollar foo as an array and wonder
+[2127.98 --> 2132.24]  what kind of array that is you can look at dollar foo as a vector event and know exactly what you're
+[2132.24 --> 2137.74]  dealing with um that helps the static analysis type checker and it also helps you as a human
+[2137.74 --> 2143.40]  understand what the code's doing um so i mentioned static analysis type checker that's sort of the
+[2143.40 --> 2148.64]  workhorse of hack um this is a extra program that runs in the background on a developer workstation
+[2148.64 --> 2155.62]  and it reads all of your code base constantly watches for updates on the file system and it looks
+[2155.62 --> 2160.54]  at all of the code paths for data moving through your system so it says okay this is coming from
+[2160.54 --> 2164.06]  dollar underscore request obviously it's a string because that's what comes from the user
+[2164.06 --> 2170.72]  it's going into this function so this function apparently accepts strings does it accept other types
+[2170.72 --> 2176.10]  elsewhere no okay we'll say this type this function accepts strings it's going from there into some
+[2176.10 --> 2181.90]  function elsewhere and it goes down to other paths it gets concatenated whatever else if you've got any
+[2181.90 --> 2186.84]  sort of type error in that system it's going to let you know that hey you should probably check this
+[2186.84 --> 2193.46]  bit of code over here we've converted 98 or something percent like that of our code base of our you know
+[2193.46 --> 2199.50]  10 to the 7th lines of code to using hack by running a program that automatically goes through and makes all
+[2199.50 --> 2204.76]  those changes so now when somebody works on facebook code they see this code that's fully type annotated
+[2204.76 --> 2212.72]  has all these parameterized expressions to let them know what's moving through and we have a lot fewer
+[2212.72 --> 2218.08]  problems of people saying oh i would refactor my little helper class that surely nobody else is using
+[2218.08 --> 2222.62]  and then finding out that the site breaks because somebody was passing the wrong kind of data and it
+[2222.62 --> 2229.26]  happened to work before so you know there's an old saying a servant you know can't serve two masters
+[2229.26 --> 2237.12]  it seems like php's it generated themselves a nice or php facebook has this new uh maybe not a master
+[2237.12 --> 2243.90]  but maybe a new toy and you said that 98 of your code base is now over onto it um being a subset or a
+[2243.90 --> 2251.10]  maybe a superset of php is a superset is that fair to say well it's it's both a sub and a superset yeah
+[2251.10 --> 2257.28]  it's like a side set i gotcha it's it's in a venn diagram or something right right so just your
+[2257.28 --> 2261.44]  personal opinion where do you see you know facebook's interest lied long term but at the same
+[2261.44 --> 2268.26]  time your facebook is investing into an open source public domain php spec so it seems like they have
+[2268.26 --> 2275.14]  interest in both things where do you see that moving into the future um so there's a there's a
+[2275.14 --> 2280.12]  few pieces of that answer so um as you see you can't serve two masters and that's a very fair
+[2280.12 --> 2285.74]  statement on it how much attention are we really paying to the regular php side of things well a
+[2285.74 --> 2290.54]  language is more than just its syntax right it's also the whole runtime that comes behind it and php
+[2290.54 --> 2296.20]  has a massive runtime library um those are completely shared in common so you know we're obviously taking
+[2296.20 --> 2303.32]  good care of those uh in common the other half of that is um a lot of the extra features that go into
+[2303.32 --> 2309.60]  hack are actually just development time features um they're not necessarily used in the runtime
+[2309.60 --> 2316.22]  some pieces of them are but not all of them so what works for hack works equally well for php
+[2316.22 --> 2321.08]  um we want to make sure that we still pass the conformance suite and we're still behaving the way
+[2321.08 --> 2330.20]  php expects but we can we can work on hack without losing sight of php um modulo those those sort of
+[2330.20 --> 2340.32]  missing things gotcha um you know we we kind of rely on external users to tell us when we're doing php
+[2340.32 --> 2346.10]  wrong at this point because we are all hack um but we do have you know tens of thousands of tests that
+[2346.10 --> 2351.50]  run on every single diff so hopefully we're finding most of those things ourselves and what was the
+[2351.50 --> 2360.18]  other half of your question i've already paged out so did i forget about it oh i think it's i think
+[2360.18 --> 2365.12]  the the kind of maybe the the leave behind on that one might be just that you've got kind of these
+[2365.12 --> 2371.68]  two parallels you're running and to some it seems like maybe it's a competitor and to some um they
+[2371.68 --> 2376.42]  can clearly see what you just described there which was this sort of parallel effort and it's sort of
+[2376.42 --> 2382.70]  like sugar on top instead of like a competitor and the squashing well i mean hack is not meant to be
+[2382.70 --> 2389.48]  a completely new language it's meant it's meant to be um something that can live alongside php and in fact
+[2389.48 --> 2394.12]  in most cases it kind of has to uh one of the things hacks doesn't let you do is have any top
+[2394.12 --> 2400.78]  level code well your entry point can't actually launch without top level code so there has to be
+[2400.78 --> 2408.14]  a php file in there somewhere um and it's it's about giving the developer the opportunity to use
+[2408.14 --> 2414.28]  as much or as little of that functionality as they want to and one other thing i think that's kind of
+[2414.28 --> 2422.22]  neat about hack is just i think the the hacker hack culture that facebook has propped up and just how
+[2422.22 --> 2430.48]  how um i guess how awesome it is i guess in a sense to say that you you get not only to do some
+[2430.48 --> 2436.88]  really awesome stuff um for developers across the world worldwide um but you also get to come up with
+[2436.88 --> 2441.68]  a language that's kind of named after your mantra which to me is just like completes the world you know
+[2441.68 --> 2446.86]  yeah at the end of the day that's that's pretty much um so so the length the name of the language
+[2446.86 --> 2453.28]  that's another story um it's a it's in a lot of our opinions like and even internally it's a horrible
+[2453.28 --> 2459.22]  name for a language because how do you google that right yeah i was thinking well that's great now the
+[2459.22 --> 2463.96]  NSA is watching me because i've talked about hacking something um they're already watching so
+[2463.96 --> 2470.64]  well they're watching us certainly um oh god somebody's gonna read something into that no i
+[2470.64 --> 2476.66]  did not mean anything by that tell us more i already started just kidding i just i just created that out
+[2476.66 --> 2484.32]  anytime you and i think this natural addition of lang after whatever it is so foo lang hack lang
+[2484.32 --> 2488.22]  php lang that makes sense you've got sas lang you know all these other different
+[2488.22 --> 2493.30]  ruby langs so the the addition of lang kind of helps maybe keep the NSA at bay
+[2493.30 --> 2498.72]  well i mean it certainly is the same same problem that go ran into how generic is the word go right
+[2498.72 --> 2504.34]  right yeah it's a movie it's a drug it's a verb it's a game whoa there's a drug called go
+[2504.34 --> 2508.40]  yeah i think i don't know i'm not on the kids these days
+[2508.40 --> 2516.24]  if you're gonna read into that yes we're definitely catching echelon's attention at this point
+[2516.24 --> 2520.82]  well sarah you know the the one other thing i wanted to mention and you kind of did it a little
+[2520.82 --> 2525.16]  tiny bit and i think i have to give you a little bit of applause because you seem to be pretty humble
+[2525.16 --> 2531.50]  about um maybe either the fact that we didn't allow you to give you yourself a proper intro in
+[2531.50 --> 2535.50]  the front of the show but um i think it's awesome that you've written this really awesome book
+[2535.50 --> 2541.06]  extending and embedding php uh you've been involved in the php community for a very long time so you
+[2541.06 --> 2546.14]  you definitely have uh the battle scars to to prove you are where you are for a reason
+[2546.14 --> 2552.10]  and obviously facebook saw something in you because they hired you to work on making it fast
+[2552.10 --> 2558.24]  which is pretty much what everybody wants facebook to be right uh it's what everybody wants all their
+[2558.24 --> 2565.42]  sites yes um yeah that's that's a true statement just as well um i think you you mentioned a couple
+[2565.42 --> 2569.40]  tangential conversations we could probably have i'm not sure if you want to bring them out or
+[2569.40 --> 2573.18]  maybe take a minute or two just to touch on a couple of them you're welcome to but
+[2573.18 --> 2578.36]  um yeah i think you mentioned uniform variable syntax and a couple others so feel free to refer
+[2578.36 --> 2584.02]  for a minute or so um i'm not sure how much more i can say about uniform variable syntax as an example
+[2584.02 --> 2590.66]  because i mean that that's just sort of um it was an rfc put forward as a guys we're doing this
+[2590.66 --> 2596.52]  kind of clowny how can we fix this without breaking all the code out there um which is really what the
+[2596.52 --> 2602.22]  the consternation on that particular subject has come down to you know um people are expecting
+[2602.22 --> 2606.44]  their expressions to work a certain way because they've always worked a certain way they maybe
+[2606.44 --> 2611.32]  even be muttering about it and saying why do i have to put extra parentheses or why do i have to
+[2611.32 --> 2618.46]  do weird things for this language that doesn't understand order of precedence um at the same time that
+[2618.46 --> 2624.18]  could exist and if we just like introduce that in like 5.7 or something like that there would be
+[2624.18 --> 2629.66]  uproar because stuff would break um not my stuff i put ridiculous numbers of parentheses and braces
+[2629.66 --> 2637.88]  everywhere um i've been told off for using too many parentheses in fact um but you know we there
+[2637.88 --> 2643.80]  are there are warts on the language and everyone on the php internals list knows what those warts are
+[2643.80 --> 2649.50]  because we get you know pelted with them on a regular basis php is a fractal of bad design it's a
+[2649.50 --> 2655.30]  double claw hammer it's a silly language whatever it happens to be it tends to get a bad rap honestly i
+[2655.30 --> 2661.72]  mean especially as uh i dare to say even like this but more modern ways or more modern things just
+[2661.72 --> 2666.88]  meaning that they're newer a lot of things happening in the javascript space with node just with all
+[2666.88 --> 2672.08]  sorts of other areas ruby is around 10 years i think it's just just turned 10 or just turned 15 or so
+[2672.08 --> 2678.00]  now what rails is growing up and rails has turned 10 that's what it was um you know so like people kind
+[2678.00 --> 2682.26]  of cling to these new things but there's been php for quite a while and it and it tends to kind of get
+[2682.26 --> 2686.64]  this bad rap because it's been around for so long yeah and people almost look down upon it in some
+[2686.64 --> 2689.92]  ways not that's why i really thought it would be important to have you on the show just to talk about
+[2689.92 --> 2694.48]  the spec its importance and what you've been doing for the language and the community itself and then
+[2694.48 --> 2700.44]  also kind of how that ties into facebook's approach to to making itself fast hhvm and everything
+[2700.44 --> 2704.68]  else we've talked about so kind of neat there's a couple others do you want to mention abstract
+[2704.68 --> 2711.36]  syntax tree or or the other two that you've mentioned that were uh side conversations um yeah i mean i i i i
+[2711.36 --> 2716.54]  sort of touched on both of them already but um yeah the absent abstract syntax tree is something
+[2716.54 --> 2723.24]  like i said nikita's working on um this like this never this used to never matter to me when i was
+[2723.24 --> 2729.18]  working on uh regular php's engine um because i'd look at the compiler and i'd say well you know it
+[2729.18 --> 2734.16]  gets the job done it probably makes it faster not to have this intermediate representation it's fine
+[2734.16 --> 2740.14]  we can just compile an expression here's a ternary statement okay make emit the off codes for a ternary
+[2740.14 --> 2744.60]  statement why do you need an extra abstract representation and then i started working on
+[2744.60 --> 2751.12]  hhvm and i saw people who really understood how to write compilers and i saw the the way this abstract
+[2751.12 --> 2758.30]  syntax tree got used in the process of compilation i'm like oh that's why that makes a lot of sense
+[2758.30 --> 2764.70]  we can do a lot more optimization we can do we can do a lot fewer hacks to make these expressions work
+[2764.70 --> 2771.78]  we can make things just function right without being inscrutable and i look back at the the the
+[2771.78 --> 2777.90]  zen engine and i say you know there are some parts in here that are kind of kind of messed up um and and
+[2777.90 --> 2782.28]  the ast is going to help us fix that it's not going to be anything visible to end users nobody's going
+[2782.28 --> 2788.92]  to know what's gone in uh but it's going to make uh our life as as php engine developers a lot simpler
+[2788.92 --> 2794.40]  all right let's pause the show for a minute give a shout out to a sponsor we've been working with
+[2794.40 --> 2800.48]  top top for a very long time these guys are super awesome and i kind of wanted to take a moment and
+[2800.48 --> 2805.24]  pause this for a bit and rather than just kind of give you an ad about what they're doing and what
+[2805.24 --> 2810.04]  they're about i kind of wanted to tell you a personal story and part of that personal story is
+[2810.04 --> 2815.12]  telling you a little bit about my day job so beyond just the change log and what we do here
+[2815.12 --> 2824.12]  i have a full-time job at a non-profit called pure charity and uh we have a rail stack and earlier
+[2824.12 --> 2830.60]  this year we had some uh developers leave the company and we had a big push coming for the
+[2830.60 --> 2838.46]  summertime for for a a uh a new feature we were working on and uh it hit me that that we should
+[2838.46 --> 2844.36]  call upon our awesome friends at top towel um and just to kind of give you a snapshot top towel
+[2844.36 --> 2852.04]  is a matchmaking service for really awesome developer opportunities and developers to get
+[2852.04 --> 2859.48]  started so we had a need for some really great ruby and rails developers and top towel helped us
+[2859.48 --> 2867.84]  find developers that fit not only our budget but also our culture our coding style all sorts of things
+[2867.84 --> 2873.62]  and long story short they basically perform magic because these people we work with i'm gonna give a
+[2873.62 --> 2879.72]  shout out to them real quick if you don't mind guillermes uh andre and jafael all listeners of the
+[2879.72 --> 2888.44]  changelot too by the way these guys are phenomenal good people good coders and just great all around
+[2888.44 --> 2894.28]  great and i have to say thanks to top top because they made this possible and if you've been thinking
+[2894.28 --> 2900.30]  about freelancing if you're thinking about uh trying out a new technology or you wanted some flexibility
+[2900.30 --> 2907.58]  in your work life balance and doing some travel top towel is a great place to be an elite engineer
+[2907.58 --> 2913.40]  go to top towel.com slash developer to get started and tell them the changelog sent you
+[2913.40 --> 2923.20]  and um totally i think it might be completely left wing here but you also wrote lib ssh2 do you want
+[2923.20 --> 2928.46]  to touch on that real quick before we start to tell the call um yeah i mean that's really nothing
+[2928.46 --> 2933.26]  nothing particularly php related except in that um at the time i was working on a lot of streams
+[2933.26 --> 2939.68]  work in php um streams are sort of this abstraction layer we have underneath all the fopen fread fwrite
+[2939.68 --> 2945.06]  those sort of calls um so that you can work with different sorts of resources so you can do something
+[2945.06 --> 2950.86]  like fopen an http url and that'll talk http to the remote server and you can fread off of that
+[2950.86 --> 2956.46]  remote network resource and it's great um i thought gosh how cool would that be if i could do that with
+[2956.46 --> 2964.94]  like scp um s s ftp no f yeah sftp files sorry it's been a while since i even touched this library
+[2964.94 --> 2973.26]  um sftp files or scp resources or just even be able to ssh into a system and send a command to it
+[2973.26 --> 2979.86]  you know how cool would that be um well i looked at uh open ssl and said can i actually you know pull
+[2979.86 --> 2988.94]  a library out of this oh god oh god no oh god look away um open ssl is a lovely uh piece of software
+[2988.94 --> 2998.88]  um but it's it's also got a very interesting code base um so i i ended up just going to uh ietf and
+[2998.88 --> 3004.48]  i said where's the rfcs for secure shell oh here they are let's start implementing a transport let's
+[3004.48 --> 3010.36]  start implementing a few channels let's start implementing this um next thing i know i've got
+[3010.36 --> 3016.00]  this entire you know client side library for connecting to ssh servers um so that i can
+[3016.00 --> 3021.26]  shove it into php and then promptly not use it because while it's cool it's actually not that
+[3021.26 --> 3027.98]  um you know practically useful for anything that i'm working on um it was just sort of i was working
+[3027.98 --> 3032.60]  for the university at the time and the thing about working for uh public institutions is that you have
+[3032.60 --> 3041.76]  um very relaxed goals and extra time on your hands um which is actually how i own getting
+[3041.76 --> 3047.46]  involved in php in the first place it sure seems like uh you enjoy diving in deep and getting into
+[3047.46 --> 3053.60]  the nitty-gritty is that fair to say well i like understanding what i'm working with um you know i i
+[3053.60 --> 3060.88]  i will search google for how to's and documentations with the best of them but if i'm really going to do
+[3060.88 --> 3065.50]  something with something i really want to understand how it works underneath um on the hhvm project right
+[3065.50 --> 3072.78]  now my main job is to make php a good open source project which really means i don't have to look at
+[3072.78 --> 3078.96]  much of the code at all theoretically um i can work on the build system some of the runtime library apis
+[3078.96 --> 3084.18]  things like that but i don't need to get down into the jit and start issuing machine code instructions
+[3084.18 --> 3090.46]  uh to do what i need to do for my job but gosh i'd actually like to understand how that stuff
+[3090.46 --> 3097.76]  actually operates wouldn't i so um so i have so i've i've got uh commits down in there and i now
+[3097.76 --> 3108.66]  for no further use in my life probably uh have the abis for uh intel x8 x64 architectures and arm v8
+[3108.66 --> 3117.54]  uh i know that the first six integer arguments of a function call go to rdi rsi rdx rcx r8 and r9
+[3117.54 --> 3123.98]  the first eight simd registers go into xmm0 through xmm7 and then everything else goes on the stack
+[3123.98 --> 3130.40]  um will i use that again probably not uh but it was fun to write the code that actually used it and it
+[3130.40 --> 3136.66]  shortened our uh the compile time of one of our files from 100 seconds down to 10 so wow that was good
+[3136.66 --> 3142.94]  that was good that was good that was really good yeah that was really good yeah we were using these
+[3142.94 --> 3148.48]  recursive variadic templates which you know god bless c++11 it's a it's a beautiful extension to
+[3148.48 --> 3155.58]  the c++ language but oh it hurt my head to read that thing like reading assembly was easier than reading
+[3155.58 --> 3162.98]  this so that's saying a lot well after after listening to you talk for a while i'm sure uh you know there
+[3162.98 --> 3168.20]  might be people out there to whom you're becoming their programming hero because you seem to have a
+[3168.20 --> 3173.80]  lot of skills and a lot of knowledge i want to turn that on you and ask uh as we wrap up here uh
+[3173.80 --> 3177.88]  who's a programmer that you look up to and that you would consider your programming hero
+[3177.88 --> 3183.52]  oh well i'm glad you said look up to because the word hero is a really heavily loaded term for me okay
+[3183.52 --> 3189.16]  um and i i'm not going to say i have programming heroes i definitely have people that i admire
+[3189.16 --> 3195.38]  um a couple of people on my team that i just want to give shout outs to um mark williams um he's been
+[3195.38 --> 3200.40]  on the project for a very long time he understands everything about um repo authoritative mode in our
+[3200.40 --> 3207.22]  system and a bunch of the um the the weirdly arcane bits of our system when somebody has a question
+[3207.22 --> 3212.22]  they go to mark because mark knows it top to bottom he's a really good compiler designer
+[3212.22 --> 3216.52]  um and he's actually really friendly in his responses he's very generous with his information
+[3216.52 --> 3223.88]  um similarly jordan delong i want to call out uh because this man knows the c++ spec by heart
+[3223.88 --> 3233.12]  um he probably listens to it on tape every night um and and he like when when i when i come to him
+[3233.12 --> 3237.72]  and i say you know i'm trying to solve this particular problem and um i i need to achieve
+[3237.72 --> 3242.84]  these two things but i just don't see how they fit together he'll just be like oh well here and he'll
+[3242.84 --> 3248.00]  scribble something on a piece of paper and he'll hand it to me and say try something like that i
+[3248.00 --> 3251.16]  mean he'll explain it as well it's not as though he's just you know throwing a piece of paper at me
+[3251.16 --> 3257.06]  but like he'll actually sketch out an implementation while we're sitting there and and and and say you
+[3257.06 --> 3260.48]  could try something like this this will probably do what you want you may have to you know check the
+[3260.48 --> 3265.48]  other thing over there um he smiles a lot he's a really friendly guy um so i definitely want to
+[3265.48 --> 3275.74]  call those guys out um heroes gosh you know honestly anyone who who looks at a piece of open
+[3275.74 --> 3281.76]  source software that they use that they make their living on that they that they uh that they care
+[3281.76 --> 3288.06]  about at all and says i want to make this better i want to give back i want to do something that's not
+[3288.06 --> 3293.14]  going to profit me immediately at all those are my heroes man like just open source developers in
+[3293.14 --> 3300.94]  general like i love that there is this community out there and i i i had a conversation on the last
+[3300.94 --> 3306.66]  night of oscon with with a guy i've known for a long time john kagashal um he's he's very concerned
+[3306.66 --> 3314.36]  that some of our culture is getting lost um and some of some of our uh like collectively our uh commitment
+[3314.36 --> 3321.36]  to to open source and and uh real open source is is getting sort of sucked up by the corporate
+[3321.36 --> 3325.46]  machine um he actually made a bet with me that night we were standing out in an intersection in
+[3325.46 --> 3330.04]  portland at like two o'clock in the morning shouting at each other um he made a bet with me he said i'll
+[3330.04 --> 3335.72]  bet you 20 bucks facebook never actually lets go with the spec and never actually makes it you know a
+[3335.72 --> 3341.96]  properly community open source thing and he emailed me after the uh the spec actually got released on
+[3341.96 --> 3349.14]  php's git server he says all right i'll owe you 20 bucks that's fast so that's a conversation i think
+[3349.14 --> 3354.54]  we've uh we've kind of had here and there on this show too just this um this sort of descent towards
+[3354.54 --> 3359.72]  corporations and their takeover of open source and what true open source is we've had um to kind
+[3359.72 --> 3365.40]  of call it a corporate source right yeah uh we had chad whittaker on who's uh runs get up and he's
+[3365.40 --> 3370.64]  obviously pretty uh prolific in that he's open company kind of person we had some deep conversations
+[3370.64 --> 3375.30]  both on the show and then after the show as well with them on that so we've kind of danced around
+[3375.30 --> 3381.66]  that quite a bit i think that's just a natural fear when it comes to like profit and and uh and
+[3381.66 --> 3386.64]  source code you know they just then you got things like bounty source and people want and there's
+[3386.64 --> 3393.26]  legitimate reasons for people wanting to raise money to build something um i'm thinking like tim
+[3393.26 --> 3396.52]  caswell i don't know if you listen to that show or not but he did some pretty cool stuff and
+[3396.52 --> 3401.14]  um he's just really interested in building infrastructure code not really building products
+[3401.14 --> 3408.06]  on it and he's trying to find ways to do that full time and make it completely open source and
+[3408.06 --> 3413.22]  i think that's just naturally it's something we want to support but it's it's neat to see the
+[3413.22 --> 3418.82]  contrast of like corporates taking over and uh what you call real open source i'm curious to know what
+[3418.82 --> 3426.08]  he meant by that but uh one last question we have is uh is it called arms it's a call to arms to like
+[3426.08 --> 3432.76]  uh the php spec you know whatever you can think of really that that you're um you know spending your
+[3432.76 --> 3437.32]  days on how can the community wrap themselves around whatever um you think is most important
+[3437.32 --> 3443.08]  what's some good guidance to the php community as it as it is to what you're working on well i mean
+[3443.08 --> 3448.38]  the first piece of guidance i would give no matter what project we're talking about whether it's php or
+[3448.38 --> 3455.38]  anything else you know don't feel afraid to get involved in an open source project just because
+[3455.38 --> 3460.36]  you don't think your coding skills are up to par or because you think that um you know somebody's
+[3460.36 --> 3465.70]  not going to like your ideas you might get yelled at a couple of times because people are kind of jerks
+[3465.70 --> 3471.08]  but sometimes not everyone's a jerk and not everyone's not most people aren't jerks all the time
+[3471.08 --> 3477.20]  um and you can also pick something that you feel comfortable with if that means documentation
+[3477.20 --> 3482.02]  god you will get loved for writing documentation you want to build you want to keep people from
+[3482.02 --> 3488.62]  yelling at you write documentation and they will love you for life um something like the spec you know
+[3488.62 --> 3495.42]  we we knew there were grammatical and spelling mistakes in the spec when we released it and we're
+[3495.42 --> 3499.84]  like you know we're okay with that because that's a nice low-hanging fruit that somebody can come along
+[3499.84 --> 3504.28]  and just say hey here's a pull request and the next thing you know you've got somebody who's involved
+[3504.28 --> 3510.38]  in the project who has this feeling of stakeholdership over it even if it's just i got them to use
+[3510.38 --> 3516.30]  the right spelling of the word too you know that i've done that before that's something yeah i mean
+[3516.30 --> 3521.58]  and the next thing that person's going to do is they're going to actually start writing some
+[3521.58 --> 3525.62]  real documentation in there and then the next thing they're going to do is they're going to fix
+[3525.62 --> 3533.02]  some little runtime uh function that is a nice easy little tweak of code my first patch to php um i should
+[3533.02 --> 3538.58]  say by the way i did i did not go to school uh well not to college anyway um i don't have any formal
+[3538.58 --> 3547.76]  training in any language um i've learned uh c just kind of by jumping in and trying it out my first
+[3547.76 --> 3553.30]  patch to php with very little c experience was just to take the log function and give it a second
+[3553.30 --> 3558.72]  parameter so you can get logs in an arbitrary base it was a really easy patch to do it was a very tiny one
+[3558.72 --> 3564.92]  i sent it to the mailing list they said this is formatted wrong do it again oh okay and then i
+[3564.92 --> 3568.84]  reformatted it i sent it and they said oh this looks lovely thank you here would you like some
+[3568.84 --> 3573.96]  karma to commit some more patches in the future like that's and that's how it started all it takes
+[3573.96 --> 3579.36]  to get involved in open source and if if you're sitting there and if you're thinking gosh i'd like
+[3579.36 --> 3586.60]  to to work on some project but i'm just not up to it you're wrong just do it just do it yeah we uh
+[3586.60 --> 3591.16]  you're not going to get fired i think the barriers are even lower now with the way that coding has
+[3591.16 --> 3594.52]  become social with github i think back when you know in the karma days it might have been a little
+[3594.52 --> 3600.60]  different and higher barriers and now it's even lower barriers oh github has done wonderful things
+[3600.60 --> 3606.72]  for just bringing everybody out of the word woodwork because you can find your project so fast you can
+[3606.72 --> 3611.96]  fork it with a single button press you can make a little branch publish it to your own version of
+[3611.96 --> 3615.62]  it you don't have to find some place to host your code it's just right there next to the project
+[3615.62 --> 3622.54]  people can even discover your fork of it through the the the uh the ui it's fantastic love github
+[3622.54 --> 3629.72]  love github well sarah it definitely has been quite a blast having this chat with you thank you so much
+[3629.72 --> 3634.96]  for taking the time you have taken to to step away from what you do at eight in the morning your time
+[3634.96 --> 3639.38]  to have this chat with us i'm sorry for making you get up maybe a little bit earlier at least
+[3639.38 --> 3644.00]  talking for this long and this excitedly about what you do at eight in the morning it's just probably
+[3644.00 --> 3648.74]  not your maybe it's your norm i don't know but i usually wake up about an hour and a half from now
+[3648.74 --> 3654.34]  okay so you she woke up earlier just to have the conversation so um we really appreciate you taking
+[3654.34 --> 3661.04]  the time and just um your passion for you know for open source and and even you know your hero
+[3661.04 --> 3665.30]  statement there was like anybody who commits to open source with a generous heart and just really
+[3665.30 --> 3670.18]  wants to see it grow and not so much gain profit from it and i really appreciate you sharing all the
+[3670.18 --> 3675.24]  all that you have shared today on the show and you know as best you can keep in touch with us we'll
+[3675.24 --> 3680.90]  do whatever we can to help uh you know help mention whatever you do in the future and maybe we can get
+[3680.90 --> 3684.70]  uh someone back on the show again i like the the conversation we had there at the end so i'll ping
+[3684.70 --> 3689.86]  you via email and see if we can't extend some conversations we had here today but i do want to
+[3689.86 --> 3694.98]  mention three of our sponsors digital ocean coachip and top top for helping make this show possible
+[3694.98 --> 3701.00]  they are awesome five by five is awesome if you don't listen uh to any other shows on five by five
+[3701.00 --> 3705.34]  go to five by five dot tv uh right now and check some other shows out the changelog's on there at
+[3705.34 --> 3712.44]  slash changelog we broadcast every week live myself jared and awesome guests like sarah so at this time
+[3712.44 --> 3717.84]  everyone let's let's say goodbye bye goodbye
+[3717.84 --> 3731.28]  you

The Road to Ember 2.0_transcript.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,748 @@
+[0.00 --> 15.10]  welcome back everyone this is the changelog and i'm your host adam stekowiak this is episode 131
+[15.10 --> 22.32]  jared and i've talked to tom dale and yahoo the cats about the road to ember 2.0 today's show is
+[22.32 --> 27.38]  sponsored by pager duty hired and digital ocean we'll tell you a bit more about hired and digital
+[27.38 --> 32.94]  ocean later in the show but our new sponsor pager duty i'm excited to have him on board if you've
+[32.94 --> 37.18]  ever gotten to work only to find something happen when you're out the server's down customers aren't
+[37.18 --> 44.02]  happy chaos everywhere you gotta listen up pager duty decreases alerting noise for operations and
+[44.02 --> 49.48]  developers when an incident occurs pager duty notifies the right team and team member with
+[49.48 --> 54.88]  personalized alerts that fit everyone's communication preferences not only that they also have analytics
+[54.88 --> 59.02]  tools that help you identify common problems allowing you to make system improvements
+[59.02 --> 65.56]  proactively so you don't have to be woken up at 2 a.m sign up for a 14 day free trial at pagerduty.com
+[65.56 --> 68.40]  slash the changelog and now on to the show
+[68.40 --> 81.00]  we're here with uh tom dale yahoo the cats myself and jared santo we're gonna have this awesome
+[81.00 --> 85.82]  conversation about the road to ember 2.0 i think it's been a long road a fun road you got lots of
+[85.82 --> 90.68]  things happening on not only the product side where you use ember but the open source side where
+[90.68 --> 96.14]  you got this great direction and a lot of uh a lot of steam happening here so i want to welcome you guys
+[96.14 --> 102.46]  to the show so say hello hey great to be here and i guess we'll start with tom tom give a quick intro to
+[102.46 --> 107.34]  kind of who you are and what you do it uh at tilde and then also what you're doing for ember
+[107.34 --> 115.30]  oh sure yeah so hey uh my name's tom i'm one of the co-founders at tilde and uh i guess i have been
+[115.30 --> 121.52]  working at tilde i realize now a good part of my career which is really rewarding so we bootstrapped
+[121.52 --> 127.22]  tilde started about three or four years ago and we work on a product called skylight and i'm very
+[127.22 --> 132.76]  fortunate in that i get to work on mostly the the front end of that which is just a big ember app
+[132.76 --> 139.52]  so it's really nice to be able to dog food your own open source so so much and then i guess in the
+[139.52 --> 145.04]  the rest of my time my nights and weekends is spent working on ember so you who and i wrote ember
+[145.04 --> 150.02]  like three or four years ago now um and that was actually coming off the back i worked on and
+[150.02 --> 155.80]  maintained sprout core at apple and the startup i left apple to go to after that yeah and you who
+[155.80 --> 162.88]  yeah so i guess i've been programming for a while now uh i think you have yeah yeah i actually for a
+[162.88 --> 167.12]  long time i hadn't been programming for that long but now it's been a while uh basically since the
+[167.12 --> 174.80]  beginning of like the jQuery days i got to miss all the sad sad years of uh dark days of the web i.e.
+[174.80 --> 180.18]  winning i basically came on right after the end of that which was great the fun times yeah i mean
+[180.18 --> 186.20]  it was still there's still a lot of work to do but it was no longer a den of despair was that when
+[186.20 --> 191.66]  firefox had just kind of taken up some yeah firefox just came out jQuery just came out rails just came
+[191.66 --> 199.52]  out right so like basically there was hope for for once um so i did that for a while um i also did a
+[199.52 --> 203.86]  few different companies and tilda like tom said the reason why i was really excited to do tilda was
+[203.86 --> 209.26]  that i had done a bunch of i've been part of at an early stage a lot of vc funded startups and i was
+[209.26 --> 215.52]  finally in a position to start one and try to bootstrap and um honestly it's everything i it's
+[215.52 --> 223.16]  very frustrating at times obviously like anything in life but uh as a whole it's it's pretty much
+[223.16 --> 228.32]  everything i hoped it would be and it indeed lacks many of the things that were sad about uh vc funded
+[228.32 --> 233.32]  startups and you guys started off with tilda was all consulting wasn't it or did you have product
+[233.32 --> 238.84]  plans right away i think we always knew that we wanted to do the product but uh
+[238.84 --> 244.32]  unfortunately you know you had mentioned that he was at several early stage startups none of us was
+[244.32 --> 249.90]  independently wealthy so it's pretty hard to bootstrap a company when you're just you know
+[249.90 --> 261.20]  making an engineer's salary um so we we use consulting as a mechanism to avoid the whole vc uh the whole vc
+[261.20 --> 267.24]  fundraising death march which has been really really great uh although as you just said stressful at times
+[267.24 --> 273.32]  but i think actually the best thing for us about doing the consulting is it has really opened our
+[273.32 --> 279.46]  eyes about how to run an open source project because we get to go around to so many different
+[279.46 --> 284.60]  companies and each company has such a different culture has such a different process and has very
+[284.60 --> 289.86]  different requirements and so being able to kind of peek behind the curtain at people who are all these
+[289.86 --> 294.10]  different companies that are using ember and see how their needs are different but also most
+[294.10 --> 300.04]  importantly how their needs are the same has been uh really really really helpful in terms of kind of
+[300.04 --> 305.18]  steering ember in the direction it needs to go and also in terms of product like one thing that was
+[305.18 --> 309.84]  pretty one thing that worked pretty well for us is when we started thinking about it we thought of a few
+[309.84 --> 315.08]  different options and many of the options actually were similar to things that other companies have done
+[315.08 --> 318.72]  and you know sold big to google but we actually focused on a product that we thought could be
+[318.72 --> 323.70]  sustainable over the long term that we that we knew people would actually pay for and that constraint
+[323.70 --> 328.80]  actually ended up being far more um interesting and important than a lot of the other constraints
+[328.80 --> 333.82]  like we could build a lot of cool stuff but actually focusing on something that we knew people would
+[333.82 --> 339.16]  pay decent money for actually is what drove us towards the product that we ended up building
+[339.16 --> 345.38]  interesting so uh incorrect if my history is wrong but i feel like tilde and ember kind of were born
+[345.38 --> 350.78]  around the same time i know it was originally sprout core and you guys kind of moved away from there
+[350.78 --> 355.22]  was ember kind of like a core strategy of you guys from a business side or is open source a core
+[355.22 --> 361.56]  strategy that you just said we have to do this alongside tilde well i think open source uh i don't
+[361.56 --> 367.52]  want to call it a strategy because i think people may get the impression that we did ember because we
+[367.52 --> 373.76]  want to become ember inc right and we want to sell these consulting packages you know and or be be like
+[373.76 --> 379.34]  the mongo db or be like a meteor where the whole company the company is the open source product and the
+[379.34 --> 383.92]  open source product is the company in a lot of ways right um but that's something that from the
+[383.92 --> 389.22]  beginning we knew that we wanted to distance ourselves from because our belief is that the
+[389.22 --> 394.80]  strongest open source projects are led not by one company but by a coalition of companies
+[394.80 --> 400.58]  and and i'm very happy with where we've ended today because we could go out of business tomorrow
+[400.58 --> 404.78]  and ember as a project would still continue to be very very healthy most of the maintainers do not
+[404.78 --> 411.72]  work at tilde which is really really great um if anything i think open source is just a huge part
+[411.72 --> 419.20]  of who especially yahuda and i are and that was one of the the benefits of starting our own company
+[419.20 --> 424.34]  because so many times we've been at these corporations where we would have to expend so much
+[424.34 --> 429.48]  energy just fighting with management trying to convince them that open source was a valuable thing
+[429.48 --> 434.64]  yes and now we have our own place and we can say you know we don't have to have that discussion
+[434.64 --> 440.10]  everyone coming in just assumes and knows that open source is a huge priority for us i can especially
+[440.10 --> 444.52]  see that on your side tom as being at apple with you know the secrecy thing of course they do have
+[444.52 --> 449.80]  open source things but i think wasn't sprout core was it open source uh sprout core was open source
+[449.80 --> 454.92]  and it was definitely very unusual for apple to be open source at the time it was it was just a weird
+[454.92 --> 460.18]  thing it was just it just didn't fit into the culture of apple and it was it was really really
+[460.18 --> 466.84]  painful because every time we wanted to submit a patch publicly we had to hand prepare diffs that
+[466.84 --> 471.84]  would be sent to a lawyer and we had to annotate each section of the diff explaining what was going on
+[471.84 --> 476.04]  and identifying if there was anything that could be patentable oh sorry i gotta check on that one
+[476.04 --> 481.32]  because that's it's like such a buzzkill it's like a lawyer-based pull request yeah i definitely i
+[481.32 --> 487.02]  definitely agree with tom that i think it's less about making ember a big part of tilda and more
+[487.02 --> 492.98]  just i think i agree me in particular but i think tom the reason we're friends is that we we share this
+[492.98 --> 498.70]  um we care a lot about open source in general as people and as steve jobs said you should do the
+[498.70 --> 502.86]  thing that you're passionate about and i think people often underestimate that they they underestimate
+[502.86 --> 508.22]  the fact that you're going to be doing a startup for years and years of your life you actually
+[508.22 --> 513.92]  need to be doing something that you can work nights and weekends that you can get up a night when
+[513.92 --> 518.76]  things are stressful and still push through and i think the fact that we both really care about open
+[518.76 --> 523.44]  source and everybody else at the company basically also cares about open source that means that when
+[523.44 --> 527.92]  times are tough it's something that we can look at and say this is all worth it and i think if we had
+[527.92 --> 532.88]  you know we could have built skylight with less open source and that would have been that would have
+[532.88 --> 538.20]  been a possibly successful product but i think it would have given us less motivation to keep going all the
+[538.20 --> 543.30]  time and i and i think people just yeah like i said people forget the fact that being passionate
+[543.30 --> 550.58]  about what you're doing is how you keep going awesome and i mean why do we start our own companies
+[550.58 --> 554.70]  or bootstrap if you have that privileges so that you can be the kind of company that you want to be
+[554.70 --> 559.48]  so it makes total sense that you guys you guys are doing open source beforehand just that's who you
+[559.48 --> 565.22]  are um so let's talk about ember maybe tom give us kind of the you know the blimp view of what ember
+[565.22 --> 569.74]  is for those people i'm not exposed to the product and then maybe you could if you can give us a brief
+[569.74 --> 574.06]  history of maybe how it started at sprout core i know it's been a long history but if you could
+[574.06 --> 579.92]  summarize it and bring us up to where we're at today sounds good so i think at a very high level
+[579.92 --> 586.56]  ember js is a javascript framework for building apps it's not really for building you know individual
+[586.56 --> 591.50]  islands of richness it's not for building little uh you know widgets that you might put on your page
+[591.50 --> 596.74]  it's for building client-side apps whose architecture is more similar to a phone app or a desktop app
+[596.74 --> 604.56]  than a traditional server rendered web app but i think what's really interesting about ember is how much
+[604.56 --> 615.44]  it's evolved so when we started ember in i think it was back in 2011 it was a purely view-based
+[615.44 --> 621.28]  component library basically so it had handlebars templates and you could plug those templates into
+[621.28 --> 627.42]  a some kind of data source which is usually a controller and that was it and i think if people
+[627.42 --> 632.80]  know people know of ember today probably one of the things that they think about it one of the most
+[632.80 --> 639.10]  you know widely known features is our router because the the router that we have in ember which
+[639.10 --> 643.70]  basically keeps your application state in sync with the address bar in your browser that's
+[643.70 --> 649.82]  definitely an industry leader i think we've got the best router on the market there and that didn't
+[649.82 --> 656.02]  even exist when we started the project which is pretty incredible so this is kind of this iterative
+[656.02 --> 661.10]  process that we've applied to ember where again we go and we talk with so many developers and we see
+[661.10 --> 666.86]  where their pain points are and ember is all about just rolling common pain points for web developers
+[666.86 --> 672.16]  into a single community solution that everyone can kind of use and agree on so we don't spend time
+[672.16 --> 677.24]  everyone solving it a thousand different ways uh so when when we started we were just this kind of
+[677.24 --> 683.14]  component library kind of similar to something like react today but quickly we discovered okay well
+[683.14 --> 688.16]  people are having a lot of trouble one making apps that didn't feel broken because javascript apps felt
+[688.16 --> 692.98]  and continue to feel today sometimes extremely broken in terms of like their back button and reloading
+[692.98 --> 698.10]  uh so and we're also having trouble trying to figure out okay what data is on the screen what
+[698.10 --> 701.94]  templates are on the screen right now keeping everything in sync and in other words bootstrapping the
+[701.94 --> 708.66]  application as it as it starts up um and the router was kind of a nut crack for both of those you
+[708.66 --> 713.36]  know we kind of cracked the nut of oh you can actually manage application state and have great urls
+[713.36 --> 719.86]  through this single abstraction and so that was ember 1.0 was the introduction of this new router
+[719.86 --> 726.12]  and over the past year we've been iterating a lot on what are the other pain points so the biggest
+[726.12 --> 731.82]  one that we've identified in the last year is build tooling so every project every company we went into
+[731.94 --> 735.54]  it's you know some people are using grunt some people are using gulp some people are using
+[735.54 --> 742.86]  broccoli everyone's got a thousand different hand-rolled buggy scripts to handle the same set
+[742.86 --> 747.20]  of problems everywhere and they're not shareable so we'd go in and i had to learn their build system
+[747.20 --> 751.30]  because it was different from the last place i was at so ember cli has been the biggest component
+[751.30 --> 756.04]  we've been working on this year it's been very popular so i i like to think of ember as having kind of
+[756.04 --> 762.86]  involved sorry evolves into this complete front end stack where you can kind of take ember off the
+[762.86 --> 767.36]  shelf you can boot up a new app in literally you know 30 seconds boom you've got a new ember app
+[767.36 --> 772.38]  everything you need is there and you can start being productive right away cool i kind of stop you there
+[772.38 --> 777.50]  i do i'm curious i have a question for both you guys you mentioned tom that you know the router and
+[777.50 --> 781.88]  you got the broken back buttons and you said there's a lot of javascript apps that are just still kind
+[781.88 --> 788.40]  of broken today yeah and i think we all feel that pain from time to time um there are some vocal
+[788.40 --> 796.32]  kind of opponents to the front end stack uh that ember angular are providing um most notably you know
+[796.32 --> 803.66]  dhh is kind of in the base camp crew um have kind of gone the other direction and um vocal people like
+[803.66 --> 809.00]  i know gary bernhardt oftentimes just says don't ever use javascript because it always well gary says don't
+[809.00 --> 814.70]  use any software at all that's true that's true he's generally mad at all software and he tends to
+[814.70 --> 820.02]  make me mad too just listening to him like you know what you're right man so you know you guys
+[820.02 --> 824.66]  have obviously heavily invested into javascript um i wonder what your guys take is on that is it just
+[824.66 --> 829.28]  because we're doing it wrong or is there some fundamentally still like technology needs that
+[829.28 --> 834.36]  need to be there before we can have robust reliable javascript apps so i actually find it a little bit
+[834.36 --> 839.50]  ironic that dhh is so against the front end but i also understand it um and i i kind of want to answer
+[839.50 --> 844.42]  the earlier question that you had which is about the history because it sort of feeds into this so i
+[844.42 --> 849.80]  basically started my career working on a project called merb my open source career which was a
+[849.80 --> 854.60]  competitor to the ruby on rails framework and essentially the idea behind merb was rails basically
+[854.60 --> 859.94]  got it right but there are some problems that rails has most notably at the time the modularity and
+[859.94 --> 864.54]  plugin system was pretty weak it didn't really have a well-defined way of hooking into the framework
+[864.54 --> 870.90]  and you sort of just went out you the plugin system was like go svn clone some stuff into your directory
+[870.90 --> 876.26]  and hope everything works and people weren't using ruby gems and the idea behind merb was let's get a lot
+[876.26 --> 881.66]  more serious about what the plugin api actually is how plugins hook into the life cycle and let's try to
+[881.66 --> 888.06]  keep the core a little bit smaller so that the things can be swapped out in a more predictable way that was the
+[888.06 --> 893.02]  idea behind merb and when i went to work on rails that's sort of what we did and i worked on that for
+[893.02 --> 898.60]  probably 18 months um revamping the plugin system rebuilding the controller system from the ground up
+[898.60 --> 903.60]  to be built in a more modular way so that things could be in a layered way so things could be pulled
+[903.60 --> 910.88]  out as needed and i think that that strategy is very effective because on the one hand the idea behind
+[910.88 --> 915.00]  rails is everyone's doing the same thing all the time and because everyone's doing the same thing all
+[915.00 --> 919.32]  the time let's have a single solution that the community maintains as a group that everyone
+[919.32 --> 924.70]  agrees is the right answer right and that i think is very powerful because the alternative is what we
+[924.70 --> 928.40]  see in the javascript ecosystem today for the most part which is that everyone starts a new project
+[928.40 --> 934.06]  and then they spend like tom said literally weeks trying to figure out which set of tools is the you
+[934.06 --> 938.96]  know the top the right point of at the hype cycle to to jump in and use it right so you have this
+[938.96 --> 944.08]  mega hype fatigue every time anybody starts a new project they have to spend weeks trying to figure out
+[944.08 --> 948.62]  what's the right thing and i think rails did a couple things really well it said we're going to
+[948.62 --> 953.30]  have a shared solution but also we're not going to be like java and take forever to change every new
+[953.30 --> 957.54]  version of rails is going to take a look around and try to incorporate and bring in things that the
+[957.54 --> 962.64]  community has decided are the right practices but so at the point at the point of rails 2 there was a
+[962.64 --> 968.48]  bigger problem which is that rails had gotten too big as an ecosystem to have one opinion be the only
+[968.48 --> 973.62]  opinion and so there were some things that people were doing like rspec and hamel where people were able to
+[973.62 --> 979.82]  sort of sneak in through the fact that ruby is a very dynamic language and you know break in say
+[979.82 --> 985.46]  okay we're going to use hamel instead of erb but rails 2 internally was really not designed for this
+[985.46 --> 990.12]  and so what was starting to happen was that new versions of rails tended to break plugins people
+[990.12 --> 995.22]  would you know you may have in order to upgrade to rails 2 3 whatever you may have had to wait weeks
+[995.22 --> 1000.68]  to get hamel or rspec to update and this was a really big issue and so i think what rails 3 showed
+[1000.68 --> 1005.98]  was that you could have all the benefits of having a single maintained stack but you can build it
+[1005.98 --> 1010.48]  internally in a nice modular way so that if people want to write a plugin that lets you swap out hamel
+[1010.48 --> 1016.84]  or erb for hamel or test unit for rspec or whatever they want that you can have a reasonable assurance
+[1016.84 --> 1021.24]  that things will tend to work and on the flip side you can have a reasonable assurance that the core
+[1021.24 --> 1027.14]  team is still focusing on bringing in newer uh newer features from the ecosystem so a really good
+[1027.14 --> 1032.76]  example of this would be the asset pipeline right i think the rails core team discovered that just
+[1032.76 --> 1037.16]  you know concatenating javascript wasn't the end of the story we needed a bigger solution and so
+[1037.16 --> 1042.70]  rails now has pretty much i think ember cli does a good job with this but a pretty close to best in
+[1042.70 --> 1047.36]  class solution for uh building assets to the point where a lot of people will use rails just for the
+[1047.36 --> 1051.88]  asset pipeline right and this is something this is sort of a balance that you have to that you have to
+[1051.88 --> 1056.66]  have you want to build your stuff internally so it can be that you can um you can plug in at
+[1056.66 --> 1061.58]  appropriate points you want to have a thing that the entire ecosystem uses and then you also want to
+[1061.58 --> 1067.42]  make sure that you're able to iterate fast and i think unfortunately when dhh took a look at rail at
+[1067.42 --> 1073.26]  ember at first and the entire ecosystem what he discovered correctly was that we were still extremely
+[1073.26 --> 1077.78]  early days we were still trying to figure out what it even meant to build a complete front-end stack
+[1077.78 --> 1084.38]  and the vast majority of the javascript ecosystem unlike the rails ecosystem which dhh is so used to
+[1084.38 --> 1089.12]  hates the idea of building shared solutions everybody wants to build their own thing everybody
+[1089.12 --> 1094.22]  wants people are so afraid of falling behind that they're willing to go and look at uh they're willing
+[1094.22 --> 1097.48]  to try every new thing that comes out just to make sure that they don't miss something important
+[1097.48 --> 1104.24]  so what ends up what ended up happening is dhh went he took a look at the situation i believe he uh his
+[1104.24 --> 1108.68]  team tried to use backbone backbone is so far away from the philosophy of rails that it's not at all
+[1108.68 --> 1115.10]  surprising to me that he considered it a total failure and then we ember at the time was completely
+[1115.10 --> 1119.86]  unready to deal with people who were trying to do it we were we were we were pioneers essentially we
+[1119.86 --> 1123.10]  were exploring the space we were trying to figure out what it even meant to build the front
+[1123.10 --> 1128.98]  front-end application so today we saw ember sort of gets attacked or so ember is basically under
+[1128.98 --> 1133.78]  attack from two sides there's one side where people are saying people are looking at ember as if it was
+[1133.78 --> 1139.84]  the equivalent of a thing like react or backbone or angular and i mean angular 1.0 here angular 2.0 is
+[1139.84 --> 1145.20]  trying to push a different direction but they look at ember and they say well it's you know the javascript
+[1145.20 --> 1149.58]  community doesn't have this idea of convention over configuration they don't have this idea of trying
+[1149.58 --> 1154.30]  to build a community around things i think if you're from rails it can feel it can feel very frustrating
+[1154.30 --> 1161.14]  and you many people don't even really take a close look at ember to see these days if it or if it does
+[1161.14 --> 1165.86]  it feels like rails right i don't mean feels programmatically like rails i mean feels like
+[1165.86 --> 1171.74]  that kind of ecosystem where people are pushing forward um and then on and the other side so you
+[1171.74 --> 1176.14]  have people from rails saying oh my god it looks like the javascript ecosystem is crazy and then on
+[1176.14 --> 1179.90]  the other side you have all the javascript people saying oh my god how could you build such a large
+[1179.90 --> 1184.96]  monolithic vertically integrated stack this is clearly terrible and so there's just a noise around ember
+[1184.96 --> 1189.06]  uh is a little bit different because of the ecosystem and the noise around rails
+[1189.06 --> 1195.72]  let's pause the show for a minute give a shout out to a sponsor hired.com is sponsoring the show this
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+[1261.52 --> 1268.70]  so do you think that the just the the the pioneering that has been going on and maybe perhaps the
+[1268.70 --> 1275.90]  fragmentation and the ecosystem leads to um less than reliable javascript apps at the end of the day
+[1275.90 --> 1283.56]  i think if you have the right abstractions you can absolutely build great javascript apps and and this is
+[1283.56 --> 1290.34]  i i think where uh the the server rendered camp is a little bit wrong you know you can you can
+[1290.34 --> 1295.90]  introduce a lot of complexity on top of people's existing stacks and they're willing to accept it
+[1295.90 --> 1302.10]  but in order to get really really truly great performance out of a server rendered app like
+[1302.10 --> 1306.92]  something written in rails you have to add a lot of complexity and that's complexity that if you just
+[1306.92 --> 1311.10]  build the app in ember that you you don't have to deal with just to get that kind of performance
+[1311.10 --> 1317.48]  right because you're moving the logic from the server to the user's browser there's nothing there's
+[1317.48 --> 1324.00]  no cash in the world that is going to be faster than that right now if you're in a a really seasoned
+[1324.00 --> 1329.96]  rails veteran you've got the stack you're super productive it doesn't really surprise me that
+[1329.96 --> 1335.00]  people are kind of going to calcify into that right because they're super productive especially as the
+[1335.00 --> 1339.54]  javascript ecosystem matures but there's going to be a day when the industry shifts and a lot of the
+[1339.54 --> 1344.14]  people who have calcified on server rendering i think are going to end up with products that are being
+[1344.14 --> 1348.72]  smoked by the competition because to be honest with you if you use a javascript app a really well
+[1348.72 --> 1353.26]  done javascript app it does all the routing on the client side it has really rich interactions that
+[1353.26 --> 1358.10]  just aren't possible when you have to have the browser and the server coordinate you use an app
+[1358.10 --> 1364.02]  like that it feels so great it feels so fast going back to something that has to talk to a server just
+[1364.02 --> 1369.62]  feels antiquated and again there are things you can do you know russian doll caching and so on but they
+[1369.62 --> 1373.98]  introduce a lot of complexity especially for loot for new learners who may not be familiar with the
+[1373.98 --> 1378.94]  stack now here's an additional concept you have to learn and a lot of people are on crappy wi-fi
+[1378.94 --> 1385.20]  networks they're on slow 3g networks it doesn't matter how fast your app renders on the server if the
+[1385.20 --> 1392.36]  pipe to get to them is slow so maybe for our listeners um maybe either of you could give maybe a
+[1392.36 --> 1397.40]  couple ember apps that you think are like really well written javascript apps obviously obviously there's
+[1397.40 --> 1402.00]  skylight which is your guys's product surely that which is the best one by far we like skylight if
+[1402.00 --> 1407.08]  you want to see like the reference implementation skylight.io by the way yeah okay and i know heroku
+[1407.08 --> 1411.72]  built their new dashboard oh that's gorgeous which is really nice are there any others just off the
+[1411.72 --> 1416.40]  top of your head you know there's a wide range and kind of surprising you know i think uh maybe a year
+[1416.40 --> 1423.10]  or two ago there was this meme that javascript is really great for you know toolbox apps or editor apps
+[1423.10 --> 1427.96]  where you have to do a lot of interactivity and you have to log in you know uh any kind of like
+[1427.96 --> 1432.30]  editing or management or any kind of creative thing but for content sites content sites obviously
+[1432.30 --> 1437.58]  javascript is totally inappropriate but there's two major content sites that i can think of off the top
+[1437.58 --> 1443.68]  of my head uh which is vine uh the twitter's video sharing app their whole web experience is an
+[1443.68 --> 1450.56]  ember app it's vine.co uh and bustle is the other one uh bustle is like a pretty very successful uh kind
+[1450.56 --> 1456.64]  of like women's news website bustle.com and the entire front end is ember and you can really feel
+[1456.64 --> 1460.64]  it as you click around man it responds so so quickly and you wonder how the heck do they get
+[1460.64 --> 1466.48]  it this fast and it's because it's a number app cool yeah and i think in terms of non-content sites uh
+[1466.48 --> 1472.48]  discourse and ghost are two open people often ask about open source projects discourse and ghost are
+[1472.48 --> 1477.26]  two open source projects that are written in ember and i think do a reasonably good job discourse is
+[1477.26 --> 1481.52]  really really fanatical about performance so maybe if you go look at it you'll find some stuff that
+[1481.52 --> 1485.76]  they do to really squeeze the last drop of performance out um ghost is a little bit more
+[1485.76 --> 1490.70]  idiomatic but both of them are examples of real world fairly large and complicated ember applications
+[1490.70 --> 1494.80]  that work and those are both open source so you can go take a peek under the hood and see how
+[1494.80 --> 1499.04]  basically see how the sausage gets made and i think we're both pretty proud about how they turned out
+[1499.04 --> 1504.24]  they're not these incomprehensible messes they actually i just love the fact that when i go look at ghost or
+[1504.24 --> 1510.34]  or discourse or travis which is also um which is also uh an ember app that's open source and i go
+[1510.34 --> 1515.58]  look around to try to get my head around what's going on it's pretty easy for me having rarely
+[1515.58 --> 1519.50]  looked at this code base to get a sense of what's going on where things are located and all that
+[1519.50 --> 1524.58]  which is a thing i got used to being true about rails but is rarely the case in javascript applications
+[1524.58 --> 1529.34]  right when you drop into most open source projects it's like oh my gosh where do i even begin you kind
+[1529.34 --> 1532.12]  of have to survey the entire code base just to even start adding a feature
+[1532.12 --> 1536.80]  um but because of ember strong conventions i can drop into something like discourse or ghost or
+[1536.80 --> 1541.14]  travis and i want to change this template i know exactly where the temple is because it's based on
+[1541.14 --> 1546.86]  what the url i'm looking at is yep cool we'll link those up in the show notes for for the listeners to
+[1546.86 --> 1552.52]  go click through and check out um but let's let's look to the future now so 10 days ago i'm looking here
+[1552.52 --> 1560.88]  at uh a post on the ember js github the road to ember 2.0 rfc tom posted this i'm sure he didn't
+[1560.88 --> 1564.78]  necessarily write the whole thing itself it looks like this was a community effort you know it just
+[1564.78 --> 1572.82]  came to me in the shower and i wrote it down um but man well thought out first of all i mean i
+[1572.82 --> 1578.38]  appreciate how much thought you guys are putting into into the software because that can only lead
+[1578.38 --> 1585.00]  to good things but um maybe just high level summary i think if maybe i'll i'll give you what i think it
+[1585.00 --> 1591.78]  says and you can you know refute or or uh say i'm right uh major points um that you made in this
+[1591.78 --> 1597.46]  is that this is not going to be a big big bang rewrite you're trying to have stability with without
+[1597.46 --> 1603.50]  stagnation this is a phrase you guys used um you had some big bets in 2014 you have some more big bets
+[1603.50 --> 1609.34]  for the future a lot of this comes from learning from the community you're going to be simplifying
+[1609.34 --> 1615.60]  things which is always nice especially when you had a thing that's been evolving over time um and
+[1615.60 --> 1619.42]  you have some big features that you talk about there at the end is that is that a top level pretty
+[1619.42 --> 1623.70]  good or did i miss something yeah i think probably the only major thing that people have talked about
+[1623.70 --> 1630.66]  that is top level relevant is that a lot of the ideas that we got for ember 2.0 that are starting
+[1630.66 --> 1637.08]  to land already actually came from uh the react project so react is a pretty great project i think
+[1637.08 --> 1642.22]  they've been doing cool stuff they call themselves just the view layer um but their view layer has
+[1642.22 --> 1647.26]  some really great ideas in it and a lot of the ways that we're thinking about simplifying going forward
+[1647.26 --> 1652.06]  has been adopting some of the ideas from the react project cool now let's let's go back to the
+[1652.06 --> 1657.92]  beginning the big bang rewrite to me okay so i've done some angular apps i've done i've done uh one ember
+[1657.92 --> 1664.38]  app um which was about a year and a half ago before you guys were 1.0 and this seemed like a shot
+[1664.38 --> 1669.86]  right across the angular bow here after their announcements uh at ng europe yeah i think a lot
+[1669.86 --> 1676.12]  of people felt like we were trying to capitalize on their uh misfortune because i think yeah like
+[1676.12 --> 1681.78]  the the stuff they announced actually wasn't new uh you know all the details had been out in the
+[1681.78 --> 1686.32]  public for you know what at least six months uh but i think the way that they they presented it
+[1686.32 --> 1691.92]  maybe um scared some people yeah scared some people they reacted pretty strongly to it yeah so i think a lot
+[1691.92 --> 1699.04]  of people thought that we saw this news and you know started you know we went back to our dark
+[1699.04 --> 1703.50]  smoky room and we're like how can we nail these guys um but the truth unfortunately is a little bit
+[1703.50 --> 1710.02]  more boring um all of the all the plans all the details essentially that you see in that document
+[1710.02 --> 1717.00]  were from the last two core team meetings now the most recent core team meeting very coincidentally
+[1717.00 --> 1722.98]  was scheduled months in advance for around the time when the angular 2.0 announcement was was made
+[1722.98 --> 1728.20]  um so the timing certainly looks suspicious i will i will grant people that but i promise you that
+[1728.20 --> 1734.28]  i have an email list showing this is scheduled months in advance um and so the last two core team
+[1734.28 --> 1738.98]  meetings we like to do face-to-face meetings with the core team we all fly into some city everyone
+[1738.98 --> 1744.12]  pays out of pocket so it's really awesome of them and i thank all the core team members for you know
+[1744.12 --> 1748.88]  really paying out of pocket to contribute to this open source project anyway how big is that team
+[1748.88 --> 1755.08]  it's like 11 people now wow that's a big that's a big meeting that yeah it's a big meeting so we all
+[1755.08 --> 1761.76]  fly into last time i think we did uh new york this time we did chicago and we all sit in a in a
+[1761.76 --> 1765.66]  conference room for like eight hours over the weekend eight hours per day over the weekend and we
+[1765.66 --> 1772.44]  try to really nail down the details of the roadmap of the framework and um everyone on the core team
+[1772.44 --> 1778.80]  has a product that is built using ember or has clients who have products built using ember
+[1778.80 --> 1786.72]  and so the commitment to stability without stagnation was not just to you know try to get back at angular
+[1786.72 --> 1792.86]  i don't think anyone on the team is that petty it was simply the fact that we have strong incentives
+[1792.86 --> 1797.26]  not to break anything because we've all got apps that we make our livelihoods from and i think on the
+[1797.26 --> 1801.18]  flip side of of breaking things i think all of us have applications that are competing
+[1801.18 --> 1807.62]  working with much bigger players we're running startups working with small companies and we can't
+[1807.62 --> 1815.78]  afford to let the opinions of ember from 2011 calcify and control what we're able to do in 2015 so i think
+[1815.78 --> 1819.60]  it was really important it's important for us to continue to look at what's going on and make sure
+[1819.60 --> 1826.20]  that the cutting edge of what's possible on the web is also possible in ember so these are basically the
+[1826.20 --> 1831.20]  two uh things that were the two pressures that seem very contradictory and actually kind of
+[1831.20 --> 1838.10]  interestingly a lot of the response to the angular uh the angular announcement was well you need to
+[1838.10 --> 1842.18]  make progress so what else other choice do you have you have to break everything and and i sort of think
+[1842.18 --> 1846.20]  about think about it the opposite which is if you're breaking everything all the time then how do you ever
+[1846.20 --> 1852.12]  get anything done right so you need to figure out a way it's basically like uh just it's a little
+[1852.12 --> 1856.88]  harder and it requires more thought but it's not like we're the first people in the world to ever
+[1856.88 --> 1863.62]  figure out a way to to improve the situation to make things more cutting edge without stagnating and
+[1863.62 --> 1867.66]  in fact the web is all about that right the last five years everybody says moving at web speed but
+[1867.66 --> 1871.96]  what is the web all about the web is all about not breaking the web while still adding the features
+[1871.96 --> 1878.42]  right it's exactly this i i sort of found it ironic that people were using the web speed as a as a
+[1878.42 --> 1882.76]  explanation for why you have to break everything all the time when the web as its prime directive
+[1882.76 --> 1887.76]  has you can't break anything ever you know it's just annoying like trying to move things forward in a
+[1887.76 --> 1894.56]  backwards compatible way requires a lot more time and it's it's just annoying to do as an engineer it's
+[1894.56 --> 1899.70]  just annoying and and so that's why i think it's so important to use open source projects that are
+[1899.70 --> 1904.32]  kind of aligned with your interests because i promise you if i was just working on ember as my full-time
+[1904.32 --> 1908.38]  job i would not bother with this it's only because we have the product that we can't break that we
+[1908.38 --> 1913.50]  go through the pain of maintaining backwards compatibility what's your guys's plan as far as
+[1913.50 --> 1917.96]  doing that your methodology for maintaining the stability while you're still moving forward
+[1917.96 --> 1924.18]  so i can talk about this and uh not surprisingly our plan is essentially derived from what the
+[1924.18 --> 1929.12]  browsers do um the browsers sort of had exactly the same situation somewhere around the time that
+[1929.12 --> 1933.80]  chrome came out the browsers were really excited about moving forward but they just but they were
+[1933.80 --> 1940.26]  stuck in these multi-year-long release cycles i think firefox 3 36 was like this huge release that
+[1940.26 --> 1945.98]  took forever and chrome was frustrated by this and they came up with this idea of the six-week release
+[1945.98 --> 1951.30]  cycle and the way that that works is that every six weeks you take every time you add a new feature
+[1951.30 --> 1956.40]  you add it behind a feature flag so it's encapsulated and every six weeks you decide what new features
+[1956.40 --> 1961.72]  can make it onto the beta branch and every six weeks after that you move things from the beta branch to
+[1961.72 --> 1966.28]  the release channel and the way that the way that this works is it allows people to be very very
+[1966.28 --> 1970.58]  aggressive on the master branch they can do whatever they want they can add whatever features they want
+[1970.58 --> 1976.68]  they can not break on the web but they can they can do things that are aggressive but that doesn't
+[1976.68 --> 1981.52]  necessarily directly affect the next release that requires more thought about stability more thought about
+[1981.52 --> 1986.58]  deprecations and things like that and so when we started when we hit 1.0 i sort of saw that we had
+[1986.58 --> 1992.84]  the same problem and we adopted the six-week release cycle pretty much verbatim from chrome and firefox
+[1992.84 --> 1997.26]  for ember and actually the rust project also recently announced that they're going to do the same thing so i
+[1997.26 --> 2002.28]  think there's something to it if you're if you really care about balancing these two priorities of
+[2002.28 --> 2008.74]  how to keep things stable and not break all the time but also keep things moving the idea of there's just
+[2008.74 --> 2012.74]  this rhythmic cycle and every six weeks your features either made it and if they didn't make
+[2012.74 --> 2017.12]  it they're just on the next it the chrome team calls us the train model so you either make the
+[2017.12 --> 2021.70]  train or you're on the next train the level of pressure is super low people get their work done i
+[2021.70 --> 2027.12]  haven't had it seems like you if you ship every six weeks the level of pressure would be insane but
+[2027.12 --> 2031.90]  actually ember has been the least pressure that i've ever felt on an open source project for shipping in
+[2031.90 --> 2036.94]  my entire career and that's because it's just you know that you can make the next one yeah you fall behind
+[2036.94 --> 2040.28]  on a feature and instead of saying well we're going to push back the release and everyone has
+[2040.28 --> 2044.22]  to wait you know weeks and weeks and weeks to get access to the bet get the benefit for all stuff
+[2044.22 --> 2048.96]  that's already done well you know i don't get this feature done today but it'll be out within six
+[2048.96 --> 2053.12]  weeks so and you're thinking a lot more about individual features than you are about big releases
+[2053.12 --> 2060.80]  which i think is pretty awesome i want to talk a bit about the the big bets because sometimes you say
+[2060.80 --> 2066.30]  bets it's sort of like you're not really sure and i guess to a degree maybe you weren't very sure so you
+[2066.30 --> 2071.06]  you play some pretty decent bets 2014 that that worked out well and then some of those bets are
+[2071.06 --> 2075.00]  kind of playing into what you're going to do with 2.0 can you talk a bit about um the work you did on
+[2075.00 --> 2081.54]  the cli and eventually how es6 models will become first class citizens and in that respect so so i've
+[2081.54 --> 2089.80]  been working on es6 modules for a couple of years um i'm i'm on tc39 and i was i joined the champion team
+[2089.80 --> 2096.00]  you should explain what tc39 is yes absolutely so tc39 is it stands for technical committee 39 which
+[2096.00 --> 2100.76]  sounds like something out of the central bureaucracy in futurama um that's like saying
+[2100.76 --> 2107.86]  that's like saying el nino is spanish for the nino yes exactly exactly it's just the 39th
+[2107.86 --> 2113.92]  technical technical committee that exists uh in ecma which i don't sense for like european computer
+[2113.92 --> 2118.42]  manufacturing association or something like that anyway so that committee is responsible for making
+[2118.42 --> 2123.78]  javascript and i joined the group of people working on the module spec pretty early uh not early in the
+[2123.78 --> 2129.00]  module spec lifetime but i think early in people's consciousness about es6 modules existing and one
+[2129.00 --> 2133.76]  of the first things that i really wanted was i said well modules are somewhat involved thing at the time
+[2133.76 --> 2138.90]  modules didn't support single export or default export um and a bunch of other stuff and i said
+[2138.90 --> 2142.48]  i think it's really important that we actually start getting some real world usage of modules
+[2142.48 --> 2148.58]  so that what we feed back into the es6 process it has reality so i wrote a really bad transpiler
+[2148.58 --> 2155.86]  for es6 modules to amd um and very early on both because i was a big believer in modules being a
+[2155.86 --> 2160.70]  thing and because i really wanted to make sure that the thing that we shipped in out of javascript was
+[2160.70 --> 2167.74]  good uh i moved a lot of the ember community over to using es6 modules and that was definitely a big
+[2167.74 --> 2172.76]  bet because i think the whole even today the module ecosystem is heavily fragmented and there was a
+[2172.76 --> 2179.72]  at the time there was this meme that well like tc39 made it so clearly it's going to fail everyone
+[2179.72 --> 2185.56]  should just use common js modules and so i really just wanted to make sure that the thing that actually
+[2185.56 --> 2192.22]  shipped was good was a good quality thing so we did that um some of the very earliest adopters of es6
+[2192.22 --> 2198.18]  modules in the ember community really drove what ended up being the the es6 spec which i think is
+[2198.18 --> 2202.74]  quite good now um basically has many of the features that people come to expect from node
+[2202.74 --> 2209.62]  modules and i think along that process so basically before es6 modules were a thing it was pretty easy
+[2209.62 --> 2214.64]  to just copy and paste some code put it into into a file and sort of develop the same way that most
+[2214.64 --> 2219.82]  people developed and maybe concatenate at the end as a final build step but along basically as we added
+[2219.82 --> 2224.62]  es6 modules it became clear that everybody who used es6 modules was going to need a build chain
+[2224.62 --> 2230.20]  and so um stephan penner started to work on this thing called ember app kit and ember app kit was
+[2230.20 --> 2234.88]  literally just a grunt script and a bunch of scaffolding and you would clone this grunt repo
+[2234.88 --> 2240.90]  and this it sounds kind of lame um in retrospect but first of all having like one tool that everyone
+[2240.90 --> 2247.52]  uses is great but second of all having um have having a thing that you're iterating on even if it's
+[2247.52 --> 2251.46]  not the best thing in the world gives you a sense of what actually is the requirement so we spent
+[2251.46 --> 2256.52]  i don't know like six months or a year uh iterating on ember app kit just to get a sense of what is
+[2256.52 --> 2261.90]  actually the requirements and then more recently this year we moved to we moved all that learning
+[2261.90 --> 2268.82]  into a more abstracted thing that you could download install update um unlike ember app kit and that
+[2268.82 --> 2273.80]  became ember cli and i think just having like a central place where people could say like here is my
+[2273.80 --> 2280.12]  build process it involves es6 modules and concatenation and maybe like hashes for so for cache busting
+[2280.12 --> 2285.98]  and and you start with that set of things and then before long you have the add-on ecosystem you have
+[2285.98 --> 2290.94]  uh additional tools you have like proxies pointing at your server you have all these additional workflow
+[2290.94 --> 2294.38]  tools basically you get this you have a central thing which is like how you build an ember app
+[2294.38 --> 2300.08]  and that ended up being it started with a little tiny kernel of like let's start getting more let's get
+[2300.08 --> 2305.14]  into a modules world instead of a globals world and it has expanded more and more into like the way that
+[2305.14 --> 2310.34]  people think about building ember applications and it's really fast i think it's really fast and is
+[2310.34 --> 2316.46]  such a huge productivity booster stuff that people would spend literally weeks setting up and tailoring
+[2316.46 --> 2323.28]  for their app now you get it in in seconds and in fact i haven't asked for anyone listening who may
+[2323.28 --> 2328.80]  have tried ember before let's say a year or two ago and maybe it wasn't to your taste try it again with
+[2328.80 --> 2334.38]  ember cli because for me this has just totally changed how i develop web applications i'm extremely
+[2334.38 --> 2339.66]  excited about it yeah and by the way tom says literally weeks and it sounds like an exaggeration
+[2339.66 --> 2344.70]  yeah not exaggeration yeah we've worked with clients where we're like there for three months and we're
+[2344.70 --> 2349.48]  there's like two weeks later people are still discussing like should we use grunt or gulp or
+[2349.48 --> 2356.16]  whatever and and there's like these huge meetings with all the quote-unquote stakeholders it's like oh my
+[2356.16 --> 2360.54]  god like this is totally a solved problem why are we discussing this over and over i think especially
+[2360.54 --> 2365.34]  rails developers will appreciate ember cli because i've i've talked to several rails developers
+[2365.34 --> 2372.22]  self-identifying rails developers who told me i thought that i just hated javascript but then i
+[2372.22 --> 2376.46]  tried to use ember cli and i realized that a lot of the stuff that i love about rails isn't inherent
+[2376.46 --> 2381.52]  to ruby that i can have that same or similar experience in javascript too yeah i think this is
+[2381.52 --> 2387.48]  actually a lesson that go made stark and i work on rust also and rust sort of copied which is like
+[2387.48 --> 2391.62]  which is that people don't necessarily think that carefully about workflow tools but having
+[2391.62 --> 2397.60]  amazing workflow tools sort of baked into the experience is pretty awesome because it's not
+[2397.60 --> 2400.78]  like oh well i can just build my own workflow tools because having to build your own workflow
+[2400.78 --> 2405.76]  tools is kind of like it's like peeking under the skirt right it's like oh now i have to think about
+[2405.76 --> 2411.06]  all this stuff as opposed to okay i want to generate some docs here i have a tool command i generate
+[2411.06 --> 2415.96]  some docs and just like having that work is pretty nice i'm gonna say friend of the show justin
+[2415.96 --> 2422.60]  who i think we had on a few episodes back uh doing lineman js i saw him in your guys's uh rfc
+[2422.60 --> 2426.96]  comments pretty excited about uh ember cli and what you guys are up to with that so that's a
+[2426.96 --> 2432.00]  i think that's a big win here's a guy who cares a lot about build tools and command lines and that
+[2432.00 --> 2437.36]  kind of thing yeah no lineman is is awesome and i think of ember cli is basically an evolution of like
+[2437.36 --> 2443.16]  okay lineman is awesome it embraces a lot of these ideas what can we do if we bake in even more
+[2443.16 --> 2447.28]  integration with the framework i mean to be honest bridging build tools on the front end to be honest
+[2447.28 --> 2452.76]  one of the things that really really hurt the early ember build tools uh efforts and i think
+[2452.76 --> 2458.10]  hurts a lot of other efforts as well is that the way most people start by building build tools
+[2458.10 --> 2463.18]  rebuilds everything all the time or may end up rebuilding a lot every time you make any changes
+[2463.18 --> 2470.16]  and i think gulp tries to deal with this and it's largely successful with some problems um but grunt
+[2470.16 --> 2474.98]  doesn't solve it at all and a lot of people will build tool tool chains on top of grunt and they'll
+[2474.98 --> 2480.42]  they'll have a whole you'll demo it they'll go to meetups they'll build small projects with it and
+[2480.42 --> 2484.86]  then you start getting people trying to build bigger things on top of it and you're just like embedded
+[2484.86 --> 2488.60]  inside of a big company and all of a sudden everything's super slow and there's not really
+[2488.60 --> 2493.74]  a lot of feedback to say okay well maybe grunt was like not the best idea so we actually used grunt with
+[2493.74 --> 2498.08]  the original ember app kit effort and it just became obvious very quickly that we needed something
+[2498.08 --> 2503.38]  that would allow you to do incremental rebuilds which is it sounds obvious but for some reason
+[2503.38 --> 2507.52]  in javascript the idea that you have an incremental rebuild that when you make a change to one thing
+[2507.52 --> 2514.06]  you should only cause a compilation of the things that changed is still not conventional wisdom i would
+[2514.06 --> 2519.22]  say and that was i would say getting to that point goes from being something that demos well and people
+[2519.22 --> 2523.82]  like to play with and you know go to meetups and show and goes to something that can be a real
+[2523.82 --> 2527.70]  productivity booster is actually solving that seemingly boring technical problem
+[2527.70 --> 2532.72]  yeah let's pause the show for a minute give a shout out to a sponsor digital ocean
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+[2581.36 --> 2585.22]  head to digital ocean.com right now to get started and back to the show
+[2585.22 --> 2592.08]  it seems like you guys have learned a lot from the community over the last couple years uh who do you
+[2592.08 --> 2597.42]  touched on it with react you also said in the post that uh you saw from angular that easy onboarding
+[2597.42 --> 2602.36]  is a big win for for getting people on board it sounds like the cli is going to help out in that effort
+[2602.36 --> 2606.96]  tom maybe speak to the virtual dom what you've learned from react and how you guys are going to
+[2606.96 --> 2612.86]  kind of get that stuff into ember here soon sure so i think a lot of the people this kind of gets
+[2612.86 --> 2616.42]  back to the discussion we were having a little bit earlier about why do people still prefer to write
+[2616.42 --> 2623.28]  server rendered apps and uh one thing that i didn't mention is that the programming model is just so easy
+[2623.28 --> 2628.86]  right if you think about how people build uh server rendered apps request comes in you will get your
+[2628.86 --> 2632.88]  model data out of the database you hand it over to your view layer to render and you return that
+[2632.88 --> 2638.76]  output and that's it and every time you handle a new request because http is stateless you get kind of
+[2638.76 --> 2647.28]  a uh you start from scratch conversely things like ember and angular have these two-way data bindings
+[2647.28 --> 2654.90]  right and it's really easy to end up in especially a larger sophisticated application which is stateful
+[2654.90 --> 2659.30]  so as the user's looking at it it's not like the state is getting reset you're constantly having
+[2659.30 --> 2663.94]  to keep uh everything in sync yourself and you're making these changes to these objects and it's really
+[2663.94 --> 2668.86]  easy unless you're diligent about it to end up with an application where you can't yourself reason about
+[2668.86 --> 2674.68]  how data flows through it uh but in order to make two-way bindings work of course you kind of have to do
+[2674.68 --> 2684.50]  that so to me the the brilliance in react is bringing back a programming model that is as simple as
+[2684.50 --> 2691.14]  server rendered apps so for example you just set your model you know let's say you have a web socket
+[2691.14 --> 2697.56]  and it gets uh new versions of a of a model streamed in every you know 30 seconds well all you have to
+[2697.56 --> 2704.40]  do is take that model and say okay replace the old model with the new one and because react uh does
+[2704.40 --> 2709.08]  this diffing strategy you basically re-render the entire app as though it was server rendered right it's
+[2709.08 --> 2713.86]  not just set the model to a new model it's basically i want to replace this little bit of
+[2713.86 --> 2718.58]  state and also re-render everything right i don't i don't want to have to figure out how to tunnel
+[2718.58 --> 2723.12]  through the specific change just re-render the universe right so here's this change sounds like
+[2723.12 --> 2726.62]  it would be slow i was gonna say doesn't that sound slow to re-render everything for a small change so
+[2726.62 --> 2731.60]  that's the brilliance of of react i think is that they've uh figured out that javascript engines are
+[2731.60 --> 2736.74]  so fast that you can quickly implement these diffing algorithms that go through and and quickly find
+[2736.74 --> 2743.68]  the changes and reflect those uh from the virtual dom into the real dom very very cheaply right so so that
+[2743.68 --> 2748.56]  to me is the core of react i think a lot of people like to reason about why it's becoming very
+[2748.56 --> 2754.00]  popular but to me that's the nut of it is that it makes front-end programming feel as simple as it
+[2754.00 --> 2759.20]  was when you were writing your rails app right and i think just to be clear i think there are
+[2759.20 --> 2764.04]  definitely edge cases with that where you're re-rendering too many things and there's also
+[2764.04 --> 2769.14]  problems with how do you know when you get a model from the server what exactly you poke at to get it
+[2769.14 --> 2775.30]  to re-render um but i think the reason why people like react is that so many cases when you're
+[2775.30 --> 2780.68]  building web applications are sort of these intra-component or inter-component cases where
+[2780.68 --> 2785.02]  you have a little cluster of components and all the communication and all the state changes happen
+[2785.02 --> 2790.40]  inside of this little cluster of components and you can get so far in react just by saying okay i you
+[2790.40 --> 2795.20]  know i have this little widget the widget changes some state and re-render the little cluster of
+[2795.20 --> 2800.04]  components that i'm inside of and don't have to worry about how to you know figure out how to
+[2800.04 --> 2806.74]  tunnel some events through a data binding i honestly both ember and react and angular fell into a trap
+[2806.74 --> 2812.06]  of even though both ember and angular have the notion of both events and data bindings i think data
+[2812.06 --> 2817.62]  bindings feel so cool for cases where they're really appropriate that people start tunneling events
+[2817.62 --> 2823.26]  through data bindings and that i think honestly when i look at the real critiques that a lot of react
+[2823.26 --> 2827.50]  people have about ember and try to understand okay well you were an ember developer you were reasonably
+[2827.50 --> 2832.36]  productive but you feel you find yourself way more productive and react what is what is happening
+[2832.36 --> 2836.34]  one of the things that i see over and over again and what and this is something that really played
+[2836.34 --> 2842.94]  into the ember 2.0 plan is that people are abusing i say abusing that sort of blames the victim here
+[2842.94 --> 2848.30]  right i people are uh using a tool that that we're telling them is good which is two-way data
+[2848.30 --> 2854.06]  bindings to express something that's fundamentally an event and i think a big part of ember 2.0 is to
+[2854.06 --> 2860.70]  refocus energy away from two-way data bindings as the primary method of communication and move towards
+[2860.70 --> 2866.48]  events as the first way that you think about it and you're starting to use data bindings one or two-way
+[2866.48 --> 2870.80]  when they become appropriate for cases where they're appropriate and have them be sort of things that
+[2870.80 --> 2875.76]  you start opting into as the situation yeah makes them i think that's definitely a mistake that we we
+[2875.76 --> 2882.02]  made we added almost too much sugar around two-way data bindings and that kind of led people down
+[2882.02 --> 2887.20]  this path of using them as an event bus it's kind of this really hacked together event bus and i think
+[2887.20 --> 2891.28]  that was a lesson that maybe we actually over learned from angular because i remember watching
+[2891.28 --> 2895.48]  presentations where people would show angular be like oh look at how easy it is to set up this two-way
+[2895.48 --> 2900.22]  binding and i got i think i got a little jealous you know how how easy it was because that easy on
+[2900.22 --> 2904.16]  ramp was so important and at the time two-way bindings were you kind of had to have them it was like
+[2904.16 --> 2909.16]  you know um you had to have them even to participate in the in the competition but i think one thing
+[2909.16 --> 2915.02]  that we should keep in mind is that this is a sad thing about the javascript community is that
+[2915.02 --> 2919.80]  everyone's always looking for the one true solution so first it was two-way data bindings and now it's
+[2919.80 --> 2927.54]  one-way data flow events right up actions down and it could be trans what is it trans uh it's the
+[2927.54 --> 2934.14]  thing that came from the closure guys that transducers transducers right uh yeah could be channels or
+[2934.14 --> 2937.80]  everyone's always looking for the one true solution that's what makes it tough about the
+[2937.80 --> 2941.74]  javascript community there's always like the right way of building apps today and if you're not that
+[2941.74 --> 2946.96]  way it's like you know get out but i think what's way more exciting and something that is like way
+[2946.96 --> 2950.90]  more fun as a programmer and this is something that like i really love about the rust community actually
+[2950.90 --> 2956.14]  is trying to trying to find contextually appropriate solutions so yes channels are great in some
+[2956.14 --> 2960.24]  cases maybe transducers are great in some cases two-way data bindings totally great when you're
+[2960.24 --> 2964.52]  building a form and you're just trying you just want to make sure that when you type something it
+[2964.52 --> 2969.58]  actually updates the object and actually you don't have to have a callback but but trying to say like
+[2969.58 --> 2974.14]  okay well i had situations where two-way data bindings were broken switch all the way to events i had a
+[2974.14 --> 2977.80]  problem where events were broken switch all the way to two-way data bindings that's basically what we
+[2977.80 --> 2983.16]  constantly see in the javascript community and it's to me by far the most frustrating thing yeah yeah but i think
+[2983.16 --> 2990.70]  this is actually in my opinion the secret to ember's longevity is that you and i spend an inordinate
+[2990.70 --> 2995.34]  amount of time talking about other frameworks and really analyzing them you know people really like
+[2995.34 --> 3000.84]  this aspect people really hate this aspect well why let's try to really truly understand and we
+[3000.84 --> 3006.52]  always incorporate that and fold that back into ember and i think that's why it always feels like uh you
+[3006.52 --> 3012.34]  know i mean i think community is naturally kind of uh can kind of uh butt heads sometimes and i think that's
+[3012.34 --> 3016.32]  why it was first it was ember versus backbone who's going to win ember versus backbone then it was like
+[3016.32 --> 3019.46]  ember versus angular who's going to win ember versus angular and now a lot of people are like oh ember
+[3019.46 --> 3024.56]  versus react who's going to win but the truth is we're going to keep we're shameless about stealing
+[3024.56 --> 3028.82]  great ideas we still we stole some great ideas from backbone stole some great ideas from angular
+[3028.82 --> 3034.82]  and now for ember 2 we're stealing a ton of great ideas from react and so in my mind the strength of
+[3034.82 --> 3041.08]  ember and the reason why it has this longevity is because we don't have a problem saying you know what the
+[3041.08 --> 3044.86]  way that we were doing before was bad let's do it this new way and let's make sure that everyone
+[3044.86 --> 3048.62]  who's building an app today can get there that they have a path for transitioning but i think i think
+[3048.62 --> 3054.36]  also to be clear we don't go and we don't whip around and say oh everything we were doing is totally
+[3054.36 --> 3059.64]  broken i think there are totally legitimate use cases for two-way data bindings and totally legitimate
+[3059.64 --> 3066.34]  use cases for all these things so it's more about finding what kate basically people got got kick
+[3066.34 --> 3072.22]  puppy syndrome around two-way data bindings for good reason right and the answer is not i think
+[3072.22 --> 3076.50]  often people throw the baby out with the bath water and every six months there's a new baby that's being
+[3076.50 --> 3082.86]  thrown out with new bath water a lot of babies well it just seems like you're learning from the community
+[3082.86 --> 3086.70]  well here i mean you say it well in the spot where you say learning from the community where you say we're
+[3086.70 --> 3091.34]  well aware that we don't have a monopoly on good ideas that you'll incorporate things as they come along so
+[3091.34 --> 3096.02]  it just kind of makes sense that that's the direction you head yep let me say this so you know
+[3096.02 --> 3100.14]  obviously at the changelog like we've been watching we kind of just keep our thumb on the pulse it's
+[3100.14 --> 3105.14]  what we do um so i've been watching your ember grow and i've been a part of the angular community
+[3105.14 --> 3110.74]  and the backbone community and the ember community kind of on the fringes um i remember the old i think
+[3110.74 --> 3115.24]  even you were on maybe it was javascript jabber back in the day with jeremy ashkenes talking about
+[3115.24 --> 3120.44]  one-way versus two-way and for me the most surprising thing about your announcement here and i think the most
+[3120.44 --> 3126.42]  um impressive actually is what you say here after a few years of having written ember apps
+[3126.42 --> 3130.46]  we have observed that most of the data bindings and the template engine do not actually require
+[3130.46 --> 3136.94]  two-way data bindings and just the the ability to say you know what it's not like it was a terrible idea
+[3136.94 --> 3141.62]  but at the end of the day we're willing to grow and we're willing to say you know what this this is
+[3141.62 --> 3145.66]  right now this is actually a better best practice we're not going to hold on to that old idea
+[3145.66 --> 3150.86]  because it was yeah jeremy jeremy pulled that snippet and tweeted literally lol
+[3150.86 --> 3158.72]  well it had to feel probably not too bad i mean so i i think what's kind of the mistake that we
+[3158.72 --> 3162.38]  made is actually a little bit subtle and the mistake that we made was that at the time we said
+[3162.38 --> 3167.62]  well there's one-way by data bindings and two-way data bindings and if you don't use a two-way if you
+[3167.62 --> 3171.84]  use a two-way data binding without setting then it's just a one-way data binding so we could we
+[3171.84 --> 3176.08]  thought we could simplify the model by just saying they're all two-way and just if you don't want to
+[3176.08 --> 3180.76]  mutate something and don't and the mistake that we made there was that we didn't realize the
+[3180.76 --> 3186.56]  importance of uh seeing from the point where you're actually writing out a component whether or not it's
+[3186.56 --> 3191.92]  going to be mutated right so we basically from our perspective we said you know a one-way data binding
+[3191.92 --> 3197.56]  is just a two-way data binding that isn't being set that isn't being mutated but that just wasn't a
+[3197.56 --> 3202.92]  good programming model right people people would do something that they thought was a immutable data
+[3202.92 --> 3207.46]  binding they would try to give some value to somebody expecting not to get set and then some
+[3207.46 --> 3211.18]  other programmer somewhere else or some other third-party library all of a sudden would start
+[3211.18 --> 3215.34]  mutating something and they would people would just get confused about what was going on so i think
+[3215.34 --> 3221.86]  saying it's not enough to say it's just a two-way data binding that you didn't set let's explicitly say
+[3221.86 --> 3226.06]  that you should opt into cases where you want it to be immutable i think ends up being good i think
+[3226.06 --> 3232.42]  that's actually a lesson that we learned from rust in some ways yeah well we stole the syntax from
+[3232.42 --> 3236.52]  rust but basically rust a lot of stealing happens sounds like uh sounds like we need to get you back
+[3236.52 --> 3241.70]  on to talk about rust yahuda yeah seem pretty excited about it i know we were talking to steve klabnik who's
+[3241.70 --> 3246.16]  a changelogger to have him come on and talk about rust so maybe we'll have both of you on sometime i think
+[3246.16 --> 3252.84]  we're one of the first production users of rust actually yeah i think open dns is maybe the ape in
+[3252.84 --> 3257.58]  earlier okay we're number two yeah happy to be number two we're used to it
+[3257.58 --> 3265.32]  one last one last question just on the roadmap um back when i was using ember my biggest problem with
+[3265.32 --> 3272.42]  it was just the how immature ember data was um sounds like it's still not hit a 1.0 is that true
+[3272.42 --> 3279.08]  and what's the plans with ember data uh so we have not hit a 1.0 yet but we are very close
+[3279.08 --> 3286.50]  um we kind of had to do a big rethink on ember data i think one thing that you'll see from our
+[3286.50 --> 3290.94]  history is that we have a very strong commitment to semantic versioning and i think at this point
+[3290.94 --> 3295.58]  you can trust us that when we declare 1.0 we we mean it that we're not going to introduce breaking
+[3295.58 --> 3299.38]  changes uh unfortunately that does mean that we pack as many breaking changes as possible
+[3299.38 --> 3305.08]  into not as possible but into the free 1.0 in other words squeeze into this yeah well we're just not
+[3305.08 --> 3308.46]  that random yeah we're just not going to ship something that we're not proud of and that we
+[3308.46 --> 3311.60]  don't think we don't feel if we don't feel confident that we can maintain it for the next
+[3311.60 --> 3317.08]  you know two three four five years ten years we're just not going to ship it um and so finally with
+[3317.08 --> 3321.38]  ember data i can confidently say that we've we've reached that point there's just a few little things
+[3321.38 --> 3326.86]  that we need to button up before we declare 1.0 um but probably the biggest thing was trying to solve
+[3326.86 --> 3331.18]  this issue of relationships it turned out i don't think we really fully appreciated this when we got
+[3331.18 --> 3335.92]  signed when we signed up for ember data because on on the surface it looks just like an orm which
+[3335.92 --> 3341.60]  you know looks like active record or any of these things um but it turns out to be an order of
+[3341.60 --> 3346.74]  magnitude harder problem orms are pretty well understood because as it turns out orms have a
+[3346.74 --> 3351.36]  synchronous access to the database you block the request while you access the database and your orm works
+[3351.36 --> 3356.90]  but with ember data what i don't think we fully appreciated was that we were basically getting
+[3356.90 --> 3364.06]  ourselves into a distributed computing problem where you have the source of truth on some server
+[3364.06 --> 3370.94]  somewhere on some server on some database and at any given time you only have a small subset of that
+[3370.94 --> 3376.10]  truth and it streams in over time and it can change and so you simply cannot get access to any
+[3376.10 --> 3381.76]  information that you don't already have synchronously right yeah just impossible so we had to build a very
+[3381.76 --> 3387.12]  robust system for dealing with this ambiguity and the fact that we could never have the full set of
+[3387.12 --> 3392.34]  truth at once guaranteed and to be honest we tried the reason why ember data was so unstable was that we
+[3392.34 --> 3398.94]  tried a bunch of different approaches and every essentially every approach had its ups and downs and we
+[3398.94 --> 3406.92]  sort of move towards an approach that works but it it was not i think people people expect a much simpler
+[3406.92 --> 3413.16]  kind of problem than it is yeah and i think if you look at the ecosystem uh there are libraries for
+[3413.16 --> 3421.22]  like backbone has some very very uh simple i guess the charitable worth use uh data syncing built into
+[3421.22 --> 3426.56]  it uh there are some libraries for angular is like rest angular and uh there's like a built-in resource
+[3426.56 --> 3432.06]  dollar resource um but the thing that none of them tackle that was by far the biggest challenge is this
+[3432.06 --> 3437.02]  notion of relationships so you know let's say i'm writing some blog software and i have a post and
+[3437.02 --> 3441.88]  a post can have many comments that seems like the simplest thing in the world if you're a rails
+[3441.88 --> 3447.24]  programmer a django programmer but actually modeling that building software that was flexible enough to
+[3447.24 --> 3452.40]  handle that case was so difficult so i just i just want to be clear like obviously a lot of things have
+[3452.40 --> 3458.10]  the notion of relationships in them right i think what tom is meaning here is that uh what a lot a lot of
+[3458.10 --> 3463.26]  applications start off and they essentially download all the data they're ever going to see up front and
+[3463.26 --> 3468.96]  they write you can easily write code that assumes that if you have post has many comments right and
+[3468.96 --> 3472.48]  you're starting out that the comments were just downloaded together with the posts right with the
+[3472.48 --> 3476.68]  posts right but then over time you're like well i have a huge blog i don't want to download every
+[3476.68 --> 3480.58]  single comment so you break it apart so now your comments are asynchronous and then later on you
+[3480.58 --> 3485.22]  discover and in ember this is not even avoidable you want to allow people to go directly to a
+[3485.22 --> 3491.14]  a particular post right and now so basically the order that you may download the data is totally
+[3491.14 --> 3496.24]  random and this is not uh people think oh well i just won't deal with that but not have not being
+[3496.24 --> 3501.00]  able to link directly to something in an app in a javascript application is basically just a non-starter so
+[3501.00 --> 3507.22]  very rapidly without even trying very hard you get into a situation where you have objects with
+[3507.22 --> 3512.88]  relationships where the order that they come in is async is both asynchronous and not exactly determined
+[3512.88 --> 3516.64]  but where you want them to be linked together and you want to be able to make changes to either
+[3516.64 --> 3520.72]  side and have them reflected on the other side and basically the problem that i just described is the
+[3520.72 --> 3527.54]  problem that we've been working on solving in ember data for the past 18 months before we tell off the
+[3527.54 --> 3533.62]  the call and go into our super awesome question which is who is your programming hero to each of you
+[3533.62 --> 3541.04]  uh maybe it might be best to close off by kind of summarizing what version 2.0 marks for ember i know
+[3541.04 --> 3545.24]  you summarize it pretty well here in your rfc so i'm just sort of using that as a as a bullet plate
+[3545.24 --> 3549.92]  either of you can take that but you know we got the jareds out there who've used the 1.0 and then
+[3549.92 --> 3555.16]  i've used it all along but what's 2.0 and what's the onward uh direction so i'll give an i'll give an
+[3555.16 --> 3560.06]  inarticulate answer and maybe tom can correct me if i get anything wrong but i think i think what 2.0 is
+[3560.06 --> 3565.96]  is us taking a lot of efforts that have been going on in the community to build a full a complete
+[3565.96 --> 3571.68]  front-end stack and making them part of ember itself so we have ember cli we have uh hopefully
+[3571.68 --> 3577.30]  ember data and other pieces of the ecosystem and the ember inspector and basically saying these are
+[3577.30 --> 3581.18]  all part of the first class experience of ember that every new ember developer should use
+[3581.18 --> 3588.60]  yeah and i think uh kind of that goes along with that is that we really want to make ember as
+[3588.60 --> 3592.68]  accessible as possible to the widest range of people uh widest range of people as possible
+[3592.68 --> 3600.00]  and that means dropping the learning curve so ember 2.0 is really about thinking okay well we
+[3600.00 --> 3603.96]  have two concepts here but i think there's one that can fit both scenarios so let's get rid of that
+[3603.96 --> 3609.60]  extra concept uh basically really distilling it down to the essence of the framework as we've kind
+[3609.60 --> 3615.12]  of as it's become more apparent over the past two years well we uh we always get some great answers
+[3615.12 --> 3621.28]  when we ask these questions but uh feel free to to share a couple or just one uh it's really up to
+[3621.28 --> 3627.52]  you but uh tom i'll start with you on can't pick each other though yeah that's cheating is that true
+[3627.52 --> 3633.32]  actually i if i can get sentimental for a moment i have to say that yehuda is definitely my programming
+[3633.32 --> 3639.36]  hero which is why it's such a privilege to get to work with him each day and i know that sounds like
+[3639.36 --> 3644.96]  really biased because we started this company together but i have learned so much uh from him
+[3644.96 --> 3649.98]  because i think he does a really awesome job distilling so many different people like he's
+[3649.98 --> 3655.26]  constantly quoting maths to me he's constantly quoting dhh to me gang of four you know all of
+[3655.26 --> 3660.88]  these historical things i have no idea how it keeps them all in his head so well yes i may be slightly
+[3660.88 --> 3667.68]  better looking than yehuda absolutely only slightly that's gracious at the at the end of the day i i i have
+[3667.68 --> 3670.88]  learned so much and for me it's a privilege to come into work every day and get to work with him
+[3670.88 --> 3678.64]  sorry i feel like you need in another person no i think it's true it's you bro all right uh now i
+[3678.64 --> 3684.82]  feel no it's not me now you're my how awesome that is a first though to have the hero on the show with
+[3684.82 --> 3691.64]  the person who says it so sounds legit though it sounded sincere yeah it did i appreciate that tom
+[3691.64 --> 3697.82]  all right who's your who's your hero so so my program hero is actually mats and i say this for
+[3697.82 --> 3703.50]  a couple reasons so first of all i think mats is extremely uh underrated and i think part of that
+[3703.50 --> 3710.20]  is the fact that mats is japanese and doesn't and speaks english uh with difficulty and he gets a lot
+[3710.20 --> 3715.88]  of shit thrown his in his direction and i think he i could just imagine that it must get to him
+[3715.88 --> 3721.02]  and but he doesn't he's not out on twitter battling the fight so people are just constantly
+[3721.02 --> 3725.96]  talking about him as basically incompetent a moron idiot it's worst language designer ever worst
+[3725.96 --> 3730.84]  implementer ever and i feel like uh people should give him a little more credit for building a
+[3730.84 --> 3736.92]  language that is as successful as it is but i think i think other uh beyond that i think i looked i look
+[3736.92 --> 3743.52]  at ruby 1.9 and i look at python 3 and people really really do not give mats enough credit for
+[3743.52 --> 3748.94]  thinking through the requirements of making such a big breaking change um in a way that would get
+[3748.94 --> 3755.52]  adoption and i i this is a topic for a whole different discussion but i think i think mats
+[3755.52 --> 3761.34]  really does a really good job of thinking about how people use his software having some level of
+[3761.34 --> 3766.76]  empathy for it and thinking about what you have to do to actually get people to move along um i'm not
+[3766.76 --> 3772.00]  going to say max has never made any mistakes in his life obviously uh everybody building something as
+[3772.00 --> 3778.16]  big and complicated as ruby makes mistakes and certainly mats is not the best vm author in the universe
+[3778.16 --> 3783.60]  but i think mats has done a really great job of thinking about why people use software um my
+[3783.60 --> 3790.28]  favorite uh my favorite thing he ever wrote or or presented is uh 2003 oscon talk which i can get you
+[3790.28 --> 3797.76]  a link to where he basically talks about how uh just like human language inter uh controls how we
+[3797.76 --> 3803.18]  think how human language makes us think in a particular way uh how programming language can do that
+[3803.18 --> 3808.56]  and he talks about how he designed ruby to help people think clearly when they're programming and i i just
+[3808.56 --> 3814.28]  think people don't give matt a lot of credit for being a really good language designer um when it comes
+[3814.28 --> 3820.12]  to ruby i can say jared and i were just a keeper be weird in austin and uh it might have been a little
+[3820.12 --> 3826.22]  bit biased because it was a ruby conference but we had uh we have this video coming out sometime soon
+[3826.22 --> 3831.24]  called beyond code where we set pretty much interviewed um as many attendees as we possibly
+[3831.24 --> 3837.38]  could on camera um so for once we're breaking into the video side of of i guess media creation but
+[3837.38 --> 3843.68]  uh a resounding uh change jared the question was uh which software has changed your life the most
+[3843.68 --> 3849.00]  summarizing that to a t but um everyone said ruby and all the things that was beautiful about the
+[3849.00 --> 3855.70]  language so it's it's funny to hear you say how bad mask gets its criticism because he's japanese speaks
+[3855.70 --> 3861.80]  slightly broken english and doesn't really translate that well but wrote a language that that helps
+[3861.80 --> 3867.34]  programmers think in english so much better than they ever done before yeah and i think people just
+[3867.34 --> 3873.16]  assume that a lot of a lot of people's success is is accidental and people i think say well maybe
+[3873.16 --> 3878.08]  matt's in the right place at the right time but honestly reading that 2003 oscon presentation makes
+[3878.08 --> 3882.48]  it clear to me that he was thinking very deeply very carefully about what he was trying to do
+[3882.48 --> 3886.96]  we'll definitely get that that link in the show notes if you can dig that up and email it to us
+[3886.96 --> 3892.00]  or text it to us or whatever let us know but uh we'll put that in the notes for sure well tom
+[3892.00 --> 3898.42]  yahuda you guys are great um man i just sit back in awe you know tom you mentioned yahuda is one of
+[3898.42 --> 3902.18]  your heroes i i don't often see my hero on here but you're definitely one of them yahuda because
+[3902.18 --> 3908.12]  just the way you articulately explain what you do why you do it why the software should be a certain
+[3908.12 --> 3914.10]  way and tom to what you mentioned on how he kind of um this isn't a yahuda party but
+[3914.10 --> 3920.18]  but just the fact that like you you do you you quote the the greats you know so you you know
+[3920.18 --> 3925.24]  take it like philosophers you keep those notes in your head you know to to make good software and you
+[3925.24 --> 3930.26]  do it well if i might say the thing that's really astounding to me about yahuda is how much he's willing
+[3930.26 --> 3936.06]  to play the long game so there are all of these open source projects coming to fruition right now you
+[3936.06 --> 3942.74]  know with broccoli ember cli ember data es6 modules javascript promises ember itself all of these
+[3942.74 --> 3948.32]  things you know being there i've seen him working on this stuff for four or five years like to me
+[3948.32 --> 3953.58]  yahuda has such a crystallized vision in his head of what web development should be like and he also has
+[3953.58 --> 3959.66]  the unrelenting energy and patience to work with people who are pretty obstinate to make that vision
+[3959.66 --> 3963.30]  come true and to me that's just like a really astounding thing that's a quality that not a lot of people
+[3963.30 --> 3970.68]  have i yeah i hope in general that if people feel moved by it that they think about playing the long
+[3970.68 --> 3974.66]  game a little bit more i think programming could use a little bit more of it well you said the web
+[3974.66 --> 3978.76]  speed earlier like as if we should just constantly break stuff which is good to a degree if you're
+[3978.76 --> 3986.06]  trying to you know push a product but uh you know we shouldn't be so whimsical about how we ship it
+[3986.06 --> 3991.54]  should be with purpose and plan and but at the same time to use your fc as a good example of
+[3991.54 --> 3996.16]  listening to the community and adopting what works best and admitting when we're wrong and
+[3996.16 --> 4000.10]  making changes as needed for the better of the community so and you can definitely i think you
+[4000.10 --> 4006.28]  can gain a lot more momentum like gaining momentum takes time yeah and and if you do it slowly and
+[4006.28 --> 4012.56]  carefully you gain a huge amount of momentum where you can definitely you can sprint out ahead really
+[4012.56 --> 4017.62]  quick and then lose momentum if every six months you're asking people to do a whole new thing
+[4017.62 --> 4022.52]  well the jared's mentioned earlier what to get you back on to talk about rust steve's definitely
+[4022.52 --> 4026.86]  that would be awesome that calls well we've been wanting to have a conversation for a while but uh
+[4026.86 --> 4031.20]  before we close off i want to give a quick shout out to three different sponsors that make this show
+[4031.20 --> 4039.20]  awesome and possible aside from the guests of course um pager duty uh hired.com and digital ocean
+[4039.20 --> 4044.90]  we're obviously hosted on digital ocean love those guys pager duty um keeps me from having to get up
+[4044.90 --> 4049.26]  deep at night you know the call goes to the right person and hired uh you guys just awesome as well
+[4049.26 --> 4055.70]  but uh great show today guys uh next week uh the next show we have planned is with dave canada on
+[4055.70 --> 4060.98]  buckets.io so hopefully that's a uh then hopefully it does actually uh be the next one in case we
+[4060.98 --> 4067.02]  actually have a show in between now and then but um let's say goodbye y'all bye bye well thanks for having us
+[4067.02 --> 4071.10]  you
+[4071.10 --> 4077.64]  you

The Sass Way and Open Publishing_transcript.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,784 @@
+[0.00 --> 13.68]  Welcome back everyone, this is the Change Log, where a member-supported blog, podcast,
+[13.68 --> 18.62]  and weekly email covering what's fresh and what's new in open source.
+[18.62 --> 24.50]  Check out the blog at thechangelog.com, our past shows at 5by5.tv slash changelog, and
+[24.50 --> 28.70]  subscribe to the Change Log Weekly, that's our weekly email we send out covering everything
+[28.70 --> 32.76]  it hits our open source radar, you don't want to miss it, subscribe at thechangelog.com
+[32.76 --> 33.46]  slash weekly.
+[33.98 --> 38.28]  And you're listening to episode 118, and John Long is joining me to talk about SaaS, the
+[38.28 --> 45.26]  SaaS way, the SaaSway.com by the way, open publishing on GitHub, Middleman, Serve, and
+[45.26 --> 47.80]  a bunch of cool topics, we had a fun conversation.
+[48.76 --> 53.00]  Today's show is sponsored by DigitalOcean, FreshBooks, and TopTile, we'll tell you a bit
+[53.00 --> 57.10]  more about FreshBooks later in the show, and also TopTile as well, but DigitalOcean, we're
+[57.10 --> 60.24]  hosting on DigitalOcean, we've been working with DigitalOcean for several months now, they're
+[60.24 --> 64.68]  a partner of ours, and they're a simple cloud hosting provider that's dedicated to offering
+[64.68 --> 67.30]  the most intuitive ways to spin up a cloud server.
+[68.00 --> 74.30]  In literally 55 seconds, you can have a full-on server created with root access, and you're
+[74.30 --> 75.00]  off to the races.
+[75.18 --> 77.30]  It just doesn't get any easier than that, really.
+[77.86 --> 83.44]  Pricing plans start affordably at $5 a month for half a gig of RAM, 20 gigs of drive space,
+[83.44 --> 88.92]  that's SSD drive space, by the way, one CPU, one terabyte of transfer, and if you only
+[88.92 --> 92.26]  need the server for a little bit, for a couple hours, or for a couple days, or for a week,
+[92.52 --> 97.60]  they even have it where you can rent by the hour, basically, and it costs just .007 of a
+[97.60 --> 100.76]  cent an hour, that's less than a penny an hour, super affordable.
+[101.44 --> 105.88]  We've got a special promo code just for our listeners, use the promo code CHANGELOGAPRIL
+[105.88 --> 107.78]  to get a $10 credit when you sign up.
+[108.08 --> 109.78]  Head to DigitalOcean.com to get started.
+[110.18 --> 111.38]  And now, on to the show.
+[111.38 --> 116.64]  So, we're joined today by my good friend, John Long.
+[116.76 --> 122.74]  John, we, I guess this show is kind of funny because I wanted to have you back on the show.
+[122.80 --> 126.84]  This is not your first time on the changelog, so it's kind of like, welcome back too, right?
+[127.40 --> 127.70]  Yeah.
+[128.50 --> 131.66]  I think the last time we were on here, I was talking about Radiant.
+[131.96 --> 132.14]  Yeah.
+[132.76 --> 134.62]  So, it was a long time ago.
+[134.78 --> 135.72]  It was a long time ago.
+[135.72 --> 142.18]  And the funny part is, is that, I gotta say, like, what, three years ago now we started
+[142.18 --> 142.94]  the SaaS way?
+[143.36 --> 144.58]  The blog, the SaaS way?
+[145.06 --> 145.34]  Yeah.
+[145.54 --> 146.30]  Was it three years ago?
+[147.62 --> 151.28]  It's, it's getting to the point where it's hard for me to remember how long ago it was.
+[151.84 --> 152.44]  It's...
+[152.44 --> 153.68]  I think it is right around three.
+[153.94 --> 154.24]  Yeah.
+[154.24 --> 156.82]  It's so crazy to think like three years ago, though.
+[156.88 --> 158.36]  It's, I don't even know.
+[158.56 --> 160.10]  But, yeah.
+[160.36 --> 164.72]  So, I wanted to have you back on the show, one, because you're pretty awesome.
+[164.82 --> 168.68]  And two, we've got this kind of, I guess, somewhat of a new announcement.
+[168.82 --> 171.60]  It's been about two weeks or three weeks now since we've had this out there.
+[171.70 --> 178.38]  But the SaaS way, just to kind of fill everybody in, the SaaSway.com is a blog John and I started
+[178.38 --> 181.80]  together maybe, we're saying roughly three years ago.
+[181.80 --> 184.80]  We'll figure out the exact mark there, but...
+[184.80 --> 185.94]  Looks like it was 2011.
+[186.50 --> 186.90]  Was it?
+[187.26 --> 187.50]  Yeah.
+[187.82 --> 191.06]  So, yeah, it was like around, I guess, yeah, July, August, 2011.
+[192.32 --> 192.34]  Yeah.
+[192.34 --> 193.20]  Yeah, so we're coming up.
+[193.42 --> 194.66]  So, roughly three years.
+[194.74 --> 196.36]  Yeah, just, just shy.
+[196.62 --> 202.70]  But, so we started this blog because we were super passionate about writing CSS the SaaS way.
+[203.50 --> 208.10]  And, and so we wanted to, like, be the SaaS jerk, so to speak.
+[208.10 --> 213.00]  We wanted to be that, that person to, like, tell the world about SaaS and compare it to,
+[213.46 --> 219.80]  you know, various ways you can do it with CSS, but make your code more readable or use mix-ins
+[219.80 --> 221.28]  or use libraries and all this fun stuff.
+[221.34 --> 224.60]  So we wanted to share our, our great fun stuff with the SaaS way.
+[224.60 --> 231.46]  And, uh, you had a project called SaaS Watch that you started with Brandon Mathis, who's
+[231.46 --> 235.58]  also a core contributor to Compass, works at, uh, Mongo HQ.
+[235.80 --> 239.56]  And he's pretty well known actually for Octopress, right?
+[240.36 --> 240.54]  Yeah.
+[241.70 --> 244.60]  Although I'm not sure, I'm not sure if Brandon was involved.
+[244.70 --> 250.68]  I know I had asked him, uh, at one point if he would be interested in being a part of it,
+[250.68 --> 252.74]  but he's, he's a busy guy.
+[253.04 --> 255.92]  Uh, and I didn't get a whole lot of traction on that.
+[256.08 --> 261.16]  Um, I think I was doing that for, it wasn't long.
+[261.22 --> 264.70]  It was actually just a month or so by the time you contacted me.
+[264.70 --> 265.06]  Ah, okay.
+[265.60 --> 265.94]  Yeah.
+[266.98 --> 271.40]  Well, before, uh, I guess unless we assume somebody went back and listened to, I'm not
+[271.40 --> 275.38]  even sure what the episode was that you were on before that we gave you your other intro
+[275.38 --> 280.86]  here on the change law, but, uh, for those who may not know who John W. Long is, who, uh,
+[280.86 --> 281.54]  who are you, John?
+[282.90 --> 288.40]  Uh, so I'm, uh, I, I'm a user interface designer.
+[288.40 --> 291.78]  Uh, I work for, uh, user voice.
+[292.10 --> 296.68]  Uh, we make, uh, help desk and feedback software.
+[297.96 --> 301.50]  Um, yeah, I live in Cary, North Carolina.
+[301.50 --> 304.20]  Uh, work in Raleigh, North Carolina.
+[304.96 --> 306.50]  Um, yeah.
+[306.98 --> 309.88]  Past accomplishments is Radiant CMS and.
+[310.60 --> 310.94]  Yeah.
+[311.16 --> 319.68]  I was the creator of Radiant CMS and, uh, I also serve, um, yeah, a number of open source
+[319.68 --> 322.10]  projects, um, on GitHub.
+[322.60 --> 323.04]  Yeah.
+[323.04 --> 332.46]  Are you still, uh, involved with, um, with Ruby Lang and the, I guess the site at least?
+[333.12 --> 333.50]  You know what?
+[333.56 --> 337.20]  That has seemed, it seems like it's, uh, picked up traction.
+[337.32 --> 341.92]  They moved away from Radiant at a certain point and, um, I've just been happy to see that
+[341.92 --> 346.72]  other people care about that site and are maintaining it, uh, which is great.
+[346.88 --> 348.68]  Are you still involved in Radiant then or no?
+[348.68 --> 348.76]  Yeah.
+[350.02 --> 357.12]  Um, uh, I guess officially I still am, but unofficially I haven't been involved with the project for
+[357.12 --> 357.72]  a long time.
+[358.00 --> 358.20]  Hmm.
+[358.50 --> 358.68]  Okay.
+[358.82 --> 359.00]  Yeah.
+[360.24 --> 361.36]  How do you feel about that?
+[361.42 --> 362.84]  You're pretty happy or just whatever?
+[363.64 --> 368.66]  Um, I mean, I still have a lot of things that I would love to see Radiant be able to do.
+[369.02 --> 376.50]  Um, but honestly, most of the stuff that I work on nowadays, I'm very content to use a
+[376.50 --> 377.60]  static site generator.
+[378.46 --> 383.00]  Um, I mean, having the site in a database, unless you're working with like multiple people
+[383.00 --> 385.86]  or, uh, it's kind of a drag.
+[386.06 --> 386.24]  Yeah.
+[386.24 --> 386.58]  It's great.
+[386.58 --> 394.28]  It's great to be able to check stuff into Git and, um, you know, and even deploy, uh, through
+[394.28 --> 396.44]  Git on like Heroku or something like that.
+[396.44 --> 402.36]  Um, so, um, yeah, I mean, I would love to update it.
+[402.58 --> 407.20]  Uh, there was a lot of work that went into it when we went, when I first worked on it,
+[407.56 --> 408.10]  pushed it out.
+[408.16 --> 411.00]  I think there was, I worked on it like eight months, almost solid.
+[412.00 --> 417.54]  Um, and I just don't have that kind of time to devote to it anymore.
+[417.54 --> 425.82]  Um, at this point, uh, Jim Gay, uh, shout out to him, uh, Saturn Flyer on, on Twitter.
+[426.44 --> 433.64]  Uh, has been maintaining Radiant for a number of years and has done a great job, uh, at it.
+[433.72 --> 438.30]  So I'm very content to let him lead the, lead the charge with that.
+[438.30 --> 446.60]  And Jim, um, actually runs kind of a consult, a web consultancy and is building sites every
+[446.60 --> 447.74]  day with Radiant CMS.
+[448.28 --> 453.54]  So I think he's the right guy to, um, to work on it.
+[453.54 --> 459.60]  I think one of the things that was hard for me was after I created Radiant, um, I ended
+[459.60 --> 464.56]  up not do, not building a lot of content oriented websites.
+[464.56 --> 468.54]  Instead, I, my career sort of went towards web applications.
+[468.54 --> 469.82]  It's kind of funny how that works out, right?
+[470.34 --> 471.34]  Applications in general.
+[471.34 --> 476.64]  And so, yeah, there's times when I feel like I'm kind of isolated for that problem space.
+[476.64 --> 480.88]  Um, you know, I, I don't understand it as well.
+[481.02 --> 481.26]  Yeah.
+[482.36 --> 485.78]  What's a good tee up for what we've done with the SAS with us.
+[485.78 --> 494.00]  The SAS way started out as a, as a Nesta CMS, which is a Ruby, um, file based, I guess is
+[494.00 --> 496.58]  the probably easiest way to say it is a static site.
+[496.58 --> 501.70]  Uh, I don't think Nesta has, I think it might have that feature, but it's not, it's not
+[501.70 --> 503.40]  meant to be a generator.
+[503.54 --> 507.48]  It's meant to be basically a flat file based CMS written in Ruby.
+[508.04 --> 508.44]  Right.
+[508.90 --> 512.10]  Um, and that was a great project.
+[512.18 --> 513.76]  It's, it's what helped lift it off the ground.
+[513.86 --> 518.82]  You know, we, you and I were able to easily, uh, tee that up pretty quickly.
+[518.82 --> 523.92]  We did deploy to Heroku's, you know, super fast cause we took, you know, we took advantage
+[523.92 --> 528.28]  of like varnish and caching and other things that Heroku provides and all the other things
+[528.28 --> 532.30]  that just a, a flat file system kind of CMS provides.
+[532.30 --> 538.36]  But, um, here about three weeks ago, we took this turn to, to finally, I mean, like we said,
+[538.40 --> 543.88]  the site's been out there for almost, almost three years and we, our original model was
+[543.88 --> 550.48]  kind of to, you know, go out to the SAS world and sort of recruit those that were, uh, for
+[550.48 --> 555.04]  lack of better terms, movers and shakers, people that were sharing, you know, their knowledge
+[555.04 --> 558.96]  with the SAS community on how to best write CSS the SAS way.
+[560.08 --> 565.40]  And, uh, you and I talked, I would say probably like eight months ago about open sourcing the
+[565.40 --> 570.36]  SAS way and oddly enough, and I'll come clean, but I felt a little apprehensive about doing it.
+[570.38 --> 573.86]  I don't know why, but, uh, I'm really glad you forced us to do it.
+[573.88 --> 580.38]  Because I think it's really a much better fit for, um, for the content the way it is.
+[580.38 --> 586.30]  So why don't, why don't you share with the listeners why you feel passionate about how the
+[586.30 --> 592.30]  SAS way meets up with this get flow, kind of check your content into get kind of mentality,
+[592.38 --> 595.30]  this sort of open publishing way of, of doing things.
+[595.30 --> 597.12]  Yeah.
+[597.22 --> 604.30]  I, um, I mean, I think part of it for me, uh, has just been over the last couple of years
+[604.30 --> 609.60]  getting more and more familiar with the way GitHub works with, uh, pull requests and all
+[609.60 --> 609.92]  that.
+[610.00 --> 615.48]  Um, I mean, we were passionate users of get at user voice and probably about every other
+[615.48 --> 616.60]  company these days.
+[616.60 --> 624.86]  And that, uh, that workflow of just being able to work on a change, push it into a branch,
+[624.86 --> 632.10]  uh, ask for people to review it, comment on it, whatever merge, uh, just seems ideal for,
+[632.10 --> 637.44]  uh, you know, building text-based documents.
+[637.44 --> 646.84]  I guess you could say, um, I, you know, what, one aspect of it too is where a blog about HTML,
+[646.84 --> 652.46]  um, and CSS and, um, you know, SAS.
+[652.46 --> 663.28]  And so like having the ability to quickly drop in and write, write that kind of code alongside
+[663.28 --> 666.56]  writing code for an article, uh, is pretty awesome.
+[667.52 --> 676.72]  Um, so I, I mean, in general, the fact that it is a, uh, uh, static file based content management
+[676.72 --> 680.10]  system, uh, it's all checked in on there on GitHub.
+[680.42 --> 686.20]  It means it's a lot easier for people to come alongside and submit new articles.
+[686.88 --> 692.66]  Um, also, uh, make changes, fix things on the site if it's not displaying correctly.
+[693.28 --> 699.62]  Um, and really, I think that the big thing that I love about this is, is that we've reversed
+[699.62 --> 705.90]  the, um, trying to go out and recruit people kind of scenario, which we still try and recruit
+[705.90 --> 712.72]  people to write stuff on the SAS way to, to it, it being also something where people can
+[712.72 --> 716.90]  come to us and say, Hey, I have an article idea, an idea for this article.
+[717.32 --> 718.22]  What would you think?
+[718.26 --> 722.68]  And then they fork the repository, they write it up and send us a pull request.
+[722.68 --> 731.60]  And, um, you know, we, we've had, uh, two articles, I guess, since we, uh, opened it up this
+[731.60 --> 731.94]  way.
+[731.94 --> 740.10]  And, uh, it, uh, you know, these are from people that we didn't know about and, um, they've
+[740.10 --> 745.98]  worked out to be fantastic articles for us filling, you know, some holes, uh, in, in what
+[745.98 --> 746.32]  we had.
+[746.32 --> 750.52]  And so one of the things that I've struggled with too, is, is that sometimes you really
+[750.52 --> 756.72]  need an article on a topic, but one of your go-to people, I guess, is not like, doesn't
+[756.72 --> 757.98]  really want to write about that.
+[757.98 --> 769.76]  Um, and so really freeing up, uh, just for anybody to be able to contribute to it has
+[769.76 --> 772.54]  been, I think a very good thing for the SAS way.
+[772.90 --> 772.96]  Yeah.
+[773.08 --> 779.86]  I mean, considering that SAS and compass, um, and I guess the SAS world is, is known to be,
+[779.86 --> 782.04]  you know, it's their open source technologies.
+[782.04 --> 788.16]  Anyways, it would make sense to, and this is why I said, I self-admitted that, uh, that
+[788.16 --> 789.74]  I was sort of the bottleneck.
+[789.74 --> 793.70]  I mean, it's kind of funny too, that the fact that, you know, I helped lead the changelog
+[793.70 --> 797.84]  who, uh, you know, focuses on, uh, what's fresh and new and open source.
+[797.84 --> 802.36]  And here I am being a little apprehensive about opening up this publishing flow just because
+[802.36 --> 804.30]  I think part of me doesn't want to lose control.
+[804.30 --> 808.82]  But then I, I learned something along this path that I realized that wasn't really control
+[808.82 --> 810.74]  we were trying to achieve.
+[810.74 --> 812.98]  It was, it was really, uh, openness.
+[812.98 --> 819.10]  And I think the last probably, you know, a few weeks I've really changed my, uh, idea
+[819.10 --> 824.94]  because I've been closely involved in this project being open source and kind of, um, helping
+[824.94 --> 827.34]  curate this content and manage it.
+[827.34 --> 831.54]  It's, it's, I can see now the light, so to speak.
+[831.90 --> 832.42]  Yeah.
+[832.54 --> 833.62]  By having it open.
+[833.70 --> 838.24]  So like you said, it's, it's really easy for someone to, to forth a repository and, you
+[838.24 --> 841.24]  know, don't worry about messing up.
+[841.30 --> 842.88]  There is no such thing as messing up.
+[842.92 --> 846.04]  And, you know, they, they sent us an idea and worst case scenario, we helped them evolve
+[846.04 --> 849.84]  that idea of an article, um, into something even better.
+[849.84 --> 854.10]  And that helps lift up the, uh, you know, the SAS community.
+[854.10 --> 859.76]  And like you'd mentioned having a certain topic to kind of write upon, we don't always have
+[859.76 --> 864.10]  a go-to person, uh, on the team already to, to kind of write one of those.
+[864.10 --> 865.98]  And somebody can bring that idea to us.
+[866.08 --> 868.22]  And it's, uh, it's a lot easier.
+[868.22 --> 873.60]  And we've, I like the way to also how we've kind of dissected the SAS ways content.
+[873.76 --> 879.52]  You got a, you got beginner, which makes sense because not everybody is, uh, is, you know,
+[879.52 --> 884.94]  a SAS guru, so to speak, you know, no one really has an expertise and not everybody has
+[884.94 --> 889.06]  an expertise level and then you got intermediate and then you got advanced and that's fit pretty
+[889.06 --> 889.44]  well too.
+[889.50 --> 895.16]  Can you speak to maybe how that's played into helping, um, the community kind of, uh, with
+[895.16 --> 898.48]  training will, so to speak, get to mastery with, with SAS?
+[899.42 --> 909.46]  Well, I mean, I, the best way to kind of answer that in my opinion is, is that I, you know,
+[909.46 --> 916.40]  I've, I've been using SAS for a number of years and, um, I know it pretty well backwards
+[916.40 --> 922.54]  and forwards, but even, even so, for some reason, I can never remember the syntax for
+[922.54 --> 924.16]  like how to write a for loop in SAS.
+[925.20 --> 927.34]  And it's the funniest thing.
+[927.34 --> 927.64]  Wait, hang on.
+[927.82 --> 930.84]  Do you go back to the article then and every, and keep refreshing yourself?
+[930.84 --> 935.96]  So the funniest thing is, is that like, I'll just type it into Google, like for loop SAS.
+[935.96 --> 942.22]  And like the first thing that comes up as an article on this SAS way, um, on how to write,
+[942.30 --> 945.48]  you know, for loops and if statements and things like that.
+[945.48 --> 953.96]  And so I really see us, um, and I, I think we've kind of gone back and forth a little bit
+[953.96 --> 960.92]  about, you know, are we a news organization or are we, um, you know, are, are we trying to
+[960.92 --> 963.12]  stay sort of current in the things that we're writing about?
+[963.12 --> 969.44]  Um, I mean, normally like with a blog, it's like this progressive, uh, series of ideas
+[969.44 --> 974.38]  that, you know, you're blogging about, but the SAS way has really become much more the
+[974.38 --> 983.22]  website about, uh, tutorials and the best tutorials, um, that you can find on SAS, uh, for the most
+[983.22 --> 986.42]  part are curated and kept here on the SAS way.
+[986.42 --> 993.56]  Um, so I, I definitely see it as like, I feel like the service that we're providing in the SAS
+[993.56 --> 1001.44]  community is just that easy onboarding and like understanding how to, um, to use SAS, how to
+[1001.44 --> 1006.68]  structure your SAS projects, all of that kind of stuff where we're trying to write about it to help
+[1006.68 --> 1015.02]  and assist you. And so for a number of the, just getting started sort of topics, um, I think we're,
+[1015.14 --> 1023.54]  we've, we've been a great strength to the SAS community and, and that regard, um, making it so
+[1023.54 --> 1028.80]  much easier for people to get, get on board. So that's where kind of, I would see the beginner stuff.
+[1028.80 --> 1034.58]  Um, in particular, um, we just had one of the articles that was contributed was on,
+[1034.66 --> 1043.24]  you know, choosing great variable names. Um, and in some ways it's a really simple article.
+[1044.14 --> 1051.48]  Um, but he's pointing out, uh, that this guy, Frank from South Africa is just pointing out that,
+[1051.48 --> 1058.78]  um, you know, naming variables like red and blue and green,
+[1058.78 --> 1066.80]  and things like that. And using those throughout your code, uh, isn't a good idea. Um, instead
+[1066.80 --> 1072.26]  using variable names like brand color or accent color, or trying to think of the semantic sort of
+[1072.26 --> 1081.10]  value that you're capturing there, um, is helpful. And while for somebody who's been writing code for a
+[1081.10 --> 1091.26]  long time, that might seem, um, just so obvious that you should, you know, choose good variable names
+[1091.26 --> 1096.34]  for people that the thing that we have to remember is, is that a lot of people that are using SAS are
+[1096.34 --> 1103.32]  people that have come to it from the design world, not the coding world. And they, they need tips on
+[1103.32 --> 1111.52]  like how to code well. And, um, so yeah, I, I'm, I think I've kind of gotten off track here, but
+[1111.52 --> 1115.12]  I feel you though. And, you know, what, I think the point you're making there that's really
+[1115.12 --> 1119.56]  important is that, um, is that while that particular article you're talking about from,
+[1119.56 --> 1125.30]  from Frank is, uh, seems simplistic, it's the obvious sometimes that I think we serve the SAS
+[1125.30 --> 1131.64]  community because yeah, sure. It, it makes sense that, you know, the variables should be,
+[1131.64 --> 1135.54]  you know, should have semantic names and they should make sense, but not everybody really
+[1135.54 --> 1140.10]  understands that. And it's, I think it almost feels like a position that the community blesses.
+[1140.10 --> 1144.54]  Like this is a community guideline for lack of better terms. And because it ends up on the SAS way
+[1144.54 --> 1150.18]  and makes it through this open publishing model where everyone who watches and stars, the repo kind
+[1150.18 --> 1154.84]  of gets these updates. Like there's a new issue, there's a new pull request. There's some dialogue
+[1154.84 --> 1159.90]  happening about this particular article. And it gets through this system that even though it's an obvious
+[1159.90 --> 1165.60]  idea, choosing great variable names. Sure. That is obvious, but I think the way of Frank and even
+[1165.60 --> 1172.90]  the comment you left today pointing back to Gina's, uh, style guide for SAS slang, you know, that's,
+[1173.00 --> 1178.82]  that's remarkable. Like, you know, she's got all these different colors identified and they're not like
+[1178.82 --> 1185.88]  slightly pink and a little bit more pink. It's like hot bush and bouquet and Venus, you know,
+[1185.88 --> 1189.82]  they're not, they got like cool names and you know, I think that makes sense.
+[1191.66 --> 1199.56]  Yeah. And then she uses those colors. She assigns them to, uh, like text colors and, um, accent colors
+[1199.56 --> 1208.54]  and background colors. Um, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I say, I would see us as kind of a jumping off point
+[1208.54 --> 1214.30]  to kind of discuss best practices and how, how they're implemented. There's been a number of articles
+[1214.30 --> 1221.66]  where the way that I finished it up is just, Hey, go check out these other repositories, right? You
+[1221.66 --> 1227.34]  know, go look at what compass does, go look at, at these other projects, Octopress and other things
+[1227.34 --> 1235.06]  to see how you structure your SAS projects or, or other things like that. So some of it, um, you know,
+[1235.06 --> 1240.70]  I knew, uh, SAS community has been really blessed with some very talented people working on the, uh,
+[1240.70 --> 1249.98]  the SAS, uh, laying website. Um, but, uh, a lot of where they're at right now is just kind of
+[1249.98 --> 1257.34]  informational. Um, you know, just trying to help people download and get started with SAS kind of
+[1257.34 --> 1268.10]  thing. Um, whereas I think we've, the SAS way is more about that conversation and, um, you know,
+[1268.10 --> 1274.50]  how do you use SAS in your everyday life kind of thing. Um, so yeah. Well, back someone asked me,
+[1274.50 --> 1280.38]  I can't recall who it was, but somebody said, well, well, this, you know, SAS has good documentation
+[1280.38 --> 1285.82]  and so does compass. Why are you guys creating this blog? Like, what's the point? And I'm like,
+[1285.82 --> 1290.16]  well, not everybody wants to go and read documentation. I mean, documentation is great.
+[1290.16 --> 1296.46]  You need it. It works, but to get started, somebody doesn't go always to the docs and say,
+[1296.56 --> 1302.18]  okay, let me just get lost in there. You kind of need this guide. And I feel like what we've done
+[1302.18 --> 1305.68]  with the SAS way and what we try to do, at least when we invite people to do, and the reason why
+[1305.68 --> 1311.74]  we've open sourced it to, to invite everyone to fork it and submit their article and pull request
+[1311.74 --> 1318.62]  is that, uh, you know, going to the docs and reading those isn't always an easy way to get started
+[1318.62 --> 1324.62]  or an easy way to reach mastery or to know that, you know, there's a better way to do variable
+[1324.62 --> 1329.40]  naming. Uh, sometimes you need somebody from the community to kind of guide you through that.
+[1329.44 --> 1334.84]  And that's, that's sort of like, you know, the documentations serves that, but it's, it's a
+[1334.84 --> 1340.50]  little dry, you know, whereas we kind of bring it to life. We bring it to life. And, um, I think we
+[1340.50 --> 1347.58]  kind of show like how you practically use something. So like to give you an example, um, I wrote an article
+[1347.58 --> 1354.98]  a couple of months ago about, um, mix-ins for semi-transparent colors. Um, and you know,
+[1354.98 --> 1363.16]  how do you provide like browser fallbacks? Not all browsers support RGBA colors. Um, and
+[1363.16 --> 1370.50]  since they don't like particularly internet support eight, like how can you use SAS to make your life
+[1370.50 --> 1378.14]  easier, um, with calculating two sets of colors for those attributes? And so that's what that article
+[1378.14 --> 1385.44]  is about. But what you're introduced to is, well, functions like the RGBA. Um, you're also introduced
+[1385.44 --> 1391.58]  to mix-ins, uh, in the course of the article and you're like seeing like how, you know, these are
+[1391.58 --> 1396.82]  developed, what the thought processes are, are, are behind that. And you might come across something
+[1396.82 --> 1404.56]  like default attributes or something like that, that you didn't know about before. Um, so I think
+[1404.56 --> 1412.90]  a lot of what we do is sort of a community awareness kind of thing. Uh, just encouraging people to talk
+[1412.90 --> 1419.62]  about and think about SAS and how they're using it, um, in that regard and sort of learn, you're not
+[1419.62 --> 1426.24]  going to read documentation from page one to, to the end kind of thing. Right. Um, instead you're going to
+[1426.24 --> 1432.38]  pick up and try and use what you have and sometimes you don't realize there are, you know, better ways
+[1432.38 --> 1440.40]  to do that. So, um, by giving these practical articles, people are able to, um, you know, jump
+[1440.40 --> 1445.46]  in and see how someone else is doing something and, um, learn from that. So.
+[1446.60 --> 1450.52]  Let's pause the show for just a minute and give a shout out to our sponsor, TopTile. For those of you
+[1450.52 --> 1455.76]  out there who are freelancing, or maybe you'd like to freelance or even kind of try out a freelance,
+[1455.76 --> 1459.94]  like project where you're maintaining your full-time position, you have to check out TopTile.
+[1460.36 --> 1466.86]  TopTile is a new rapidly growing network of some of the most elite engineers in the world. They're
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+[1494.00 --> 1502.96]  You cannot miss it. That's T-O-P-T-A-L.com slash developer. Let's talk about the, the process of
+[1502.96 --> 1509.48]  taking the SaaS way and making it open source. What, uh, you know, I know that I did the original
+[1509.48 --> 1516.64]  design and then the second, uh, the second redo, I guess, is, uh, it's pretty much all you, like you,
+[1517.20 --> 1523.22]  um, took the old repo, pulled all the content out, moved us to middleman and a bunch of other fun
+[1523.22 --> 1529.08]  stuff. You used SaaS, I'm sure, behind the scenes to, you know, write the styles. Did you use a framework?
+[1529.08 --> 1532.90]  You know, what was the process of like redesigning and then going open source?
+[1535.32 --> 1543.84]  Yeah. So we, I mean, we had a number of reasons, uh, to redesign. One was that the, um, we really
+[1543.84 --> 1552.06]  wanted to update the logo and sort of the feel of the site. Um, SaaS had had the, um, the woman on
+[1552.06 --> 1557.24]  the phone, right? Um, the sassy lady with the phone in her hand, the sassy lady with the phone in her
+[1557.24 --> 1568.52]  hand. And, um, funny story about that. The, um, with the SaaS website, they redesigned the logo.
+[1568.96 --> 1573.78]  Um, and we wanted to update our branding to kind of reflect that. So that, that was part of what
+[1573.78 --> 1585.34]  motivated, um, me sort of getting in, rethinking the design. Um, I think, you know, from a higher
+[1585.34 --> 1590.74]  level, I was also interested in just kind of simplifying some of the things, um, we wanted
+[1590.74 --> 1596.36]  the site to be more responsive. One of the things that I'm learning more and more of is, is that a
+[1596.36 --> 1600.40]  lot of times people are reading these things on the go, whether you're, you know, for sure,
+[1601.00 --> 1607.14]  whether you're on the bus or, you know, frankly on the toilet at work, you know, you're pulling it up
+[1607.14 --> 1611.28]  on your phone and you're looking at it and you're reading your Twitter stream.
+[1611.28 --> 1613.96]  Why do they gotta be at work while they're on the toilet? Why, why at work?
+[1614.66 --> 1617.20]  I'm trying to think of a productive reason to be on the toilet.
+[1617.36 --> 1617.60]  Okay.
+[1618.32 --> 1627.24]  Anyway, um, so, so, you know, the mobile side of it was, was part of it. Um, I think the other
+[1627.24 --> 1631.30]  thing that I was really kind of interested in too was in just illustrating, particularly
+[1631.30 --> 1638.24]  some of the modular CSS stuff I've been writing about on the CSS, the SaaS way for, um, a while.
+[1638.24 --> 1643.34]  I wanted to spend some time to kind of make our CSS more modular in that regard. Um,
+[1644.44 --> 1653.94]  so a lot of things there, uh, we ended up, um, I had been playing around with middleman and
+[1653.94 --> 1659.22]  middleman to me, I, I can't really say enough good things about it. I've created my own thing,
+[1659.22 --> 1668.66]  uh, serve, um, which is kind of in the same space. Um, it's really for, um, rapid prototyping
+[1668.66 --> 1674.68]  rails applications, but it also generates static sites kind of similar to middleman. Middleman,
+[1674.68 --> 1683.96]  um, to me is kind of the, um, Ruby has had a series of static sites generators, uh, Nesta,
+[1683.96 --> 1692.66]  um, the oldest one is static matic static matic. Um, there there's, there's really like six or seven
+[1692.66 --> 1697.26]  of them that have like played a major sort of role in it. And middleman is kind of the late comer,
+[1697.26 --> 1704.16]  but he's sort of learned from everybody in terms of like what people want to do with their static sites.
+[1704.16 --> 1712.94]  Uh, Jekyll's another one of them. Um, and middleman has this plugin architecture, uh, and sort of a data
+[1712.94 --> 1721.98]  model that, uh, those two things really make it a killer content management system. Um, I actually,
+[1722.22 --> 1731.18]  uh, they have plugins for doing the blog portion of it. And I ended up just writing a little Ruby code,
+[1731.18 --> 1739.16]  uh, and helpers, uh, to, uh, pull out the information I needed instead of actually using the plugin
+[1739.16 --> 1746.20]  that they have. Um, because the structure of our site was significantly different than if we had
+[1746.20 --> 1754.06]  chosen to use their, their blog plugin. Um, and it was impressive to me that I was still able to,
+[1754.14 --> 1761.74]  you can do things like, uh, go through the list of all of the pages on your site and, you know,
+[1761.74 --> 1768.04]  grab their summaries and filter them in different ways. And having the ability to do that, um,
+[1768.04 --> 1774.72]  you know, in code to build those category pages and other things like that, that we needed. Um,
+[1775.00 --> 1783.10]  and to do it exactly according to our old structure was just amazing. Um, I thought we were going to
+[1783.10 --> 1789.20]  have to, you know, do a lot more with redirects or something like that when we upgraded the site.
+[1789.42 --> 1795.08]  It's always tough when you move a site from even one similar system, because Nestle wasn't very far off
+[1795.08 --> 1799.46]  a middleman, honestly. I mean, they're pretty similar monsters, but obviously a slightly different
+[1799.46 --> 1805.04]  structure, but the URLs that we chose originally were meant to be short and sweet, not, you know,
+[1806.20 --> 1811.68]  extra category sections and segments in the URL. It's, it was pretty straightforward. So I was really
+[1811.68 --> 1817.46]  happy with that too, that we were able to keep the URL structure one, just because it fit. And two,
+[1817.54 --> 1819.42]  just to not have to do the redirects like you'd mentioned.
+[1819.42 --> 1825.72]  Right. And I think, um, I mean, one of the things that I was really pleased with was, um,
+[1826.22 --> 1834.16]  it was almost like I was just deleting code in order to make it work well in middleman. Um,
+[1834.82 --> 1843.20]  and what I mean by that is that, um, there were times where we had like, in Nesta had to use like
+[1843.20 --> 1850.82]  multiple partials and sort of like these hacks to like go around things. And, um, in middleman,
+[1850.90 --> 1855.82]  when the final product was there, there were like less files that were had to be used to like get it.
+[1855.94 --> 1859.50]  And, um, yeah, so it's.
+[1860.12 --> 1864.06]  Even middleman and Jekyll though, for those listening and thinking like, you know, middleman,
+[1864.22 --> 1869.18]  Jekyll, how do you choose and why do we choose middleman? They're very similar. I mean, even they
+[1869.18 --> 1874.34]  both have the front matter. They both have similar ecosystems. And I think Jekyll is starting to get
+[1874.34 --> 1881.30]  a lot more new life with, uh, with Parker taking over and, um, taking the helm of, you know, leading
+[1881.30 --> 1884.94]  that. I mean, it's growing into its own thing as well. And author press has always been there
+[1884.94 --> 1888.62]  leading the way as well with it, but middleman, like you had said, it's kind of like in this
+[1888.62 --> 1894.36]  middle ground of, and the usability of it's really, really nice as well. And the fact that it's got
+[1894.36 --> 1900.18]  that plugin ecosystem and it's got tons of stuff like a blog plugin and all sorts of cool stuff
+[1900.18 --> 1908.24]  that you can do with it. Yeah. It's, um, I mean, my, my feeling is, is I would much rather use
+[1908.24 --> 1917.96]  middleman and I've used Jekyll before. Um, Jekyll just seems to be, uh, it sort of pushes you into
+[1917.96 --> 1924.72]  that blog paradigm kind of thing. It's a little bit like, um, WordPress years ago, uh, how every
+[1924.72 --> 1929.06]  WordPress site was like a blog kind of thing. Right. At first it was a blog and then you kind
+[1929.06 --> 1934.42]  of morphed into a site. And now it's become more of a content management system WordPress has.
+[1934.96 --> 1940.56]  Um, or at least that's my understanding. I haven't used WordPress in years. Um, but I,
+[1940.66 --> 1946.40]  and I think Jekyll's on a similar journey, but middleman is a content management system first.
+[1946.40 --> 1954.84]  And in my mind, uh, it just makes a lot more of decisions the right way in, in that regard.
+[1955.58 --> 1962.36]  Um, so yeah, I'm, I'm a huge fan and I, I mean, serve basically competes with middleman on,
+[1962.56 --> 1967.06]  uh, in some people's minds as well. So, you know, I'm a passionate middleman user and I,
+[1967.14 --> 1973.32]  I wrote my own thing. So. Yeah. I, I was always, uh, I always wondered about that too. Cause
+[1973.32 --> 1980.84]  you know, I was a huge fan of your serve framework, which like you had said, is very similar to
+[1980.84 --> 1986.02]  middleman and competes with it. And I think, um, there was even a point too, and I was like,
+[1986.06 --> 1990.04]  man, middleman really requires a ton whenever you do, you know, gem install middleman,
+[1990.16 --> 1996.22]  a lot comes with it. And I think with serve, you kind of leverage tilt a lot more. And was it tilt or
+[1996.22 --> 2000.88]  what was the, the one particular library that you were other Ruby library you were leveraging to kind
+[2000.88 --> 2012.64]  of keep things, you know, less dependencies? Do you recall? Um, I mean, I didn't, well, okay. So
+[2012.64 --> 2017.58]  rack is probably what you're talking about. Originally serve was not built on rack. Um,
+[2017.84 --> 2025.36]  and at a certain point we rewrote it so that it was on top of rack. Um, I, and at a certain point we
+[2025.36 --> 2032.66]  rewrote it so that it was on top of tilt as well. Um, so I think middleman and serve are fairly
+[2032.66 --> 2040.54]  comparable in that regard now. Um, I still feel like serve, what I love about serve,
+[2041.06 --> 2046.72]  particularly using it in unstructured mode, you can just throw a bunch of files in a directory and,
+[2046.72 --> 2053.38]  you know, just type the serve command and it knows how to, you know, serve up SAS if you want SAS or
+[2053.38 --> 2059.24]  serve up, you know, the other stuff. Um, but when you get to something, so it's almost like the code
+[2059.24 --> 2066.04]  pen tool kind of thing. That's, that's sort of where serve sweet spot is. Um, but when you get
+[2066.04 --> 2071.48]  to something a little bit bigger and really a site that you want to manage, I think middleman wins
+[2071.48 --> 2077.58]  hands down, I'd still probably use serve for prototyping rails apps. One of the, one of the things
+[2077.58 --> 2082.74]  that I love about it is that, um, for the most part you use the exact same calls in serve as you
+[2082.74 --> 2090.96]  would in rails to do, you know, helper methods and things like that. Um, and middleman somewhat
+[2090.96 --> 2096.48]  follows that they make some different decisions on certain things. I think one uses render and the
+[2096.48 --> 2103.68]  other uses partial to like call out to, you know, yeah, that, that kind of bugged me when you don't
+[2103.68 --> 2111.52]  at least adhere to other, I guess, uh, what do you call it? Like just patterns the way that other,
+[2111.52 --> 2116.44]  you know, right. That, that had been set up. So I, I, you know, in that regard, if you're
+[2116.44 --> 2123.22]  coming from rails, you know, I think serve still, for example, you know, right. But serve
+[2123.22 --> 2130.56]  also has a hard time right now, uh, exporting certain projects. Like, um, there's more work
+[2130.56 --> 2136.88]  to be done to make serve. Awesome. Um, and middleman is just much better architected.
+[2136.88 --> 2140.84]  So where's serve at nowadays? Like, is it, uh, where's the priority for you on that? Is
+[2140.84 --> 2144.02]  it something you're still working on? Um,
+[2144.02 --> 2156.40]  it, I, every once in a while I will spend time on serve. Yeah. I, you know, part of it for
+[2156.40 --> 2164.56]  me, part of it for me is, is that I've like serve works for me for prototyping rails applications.
+[2164.56 --> 2170.06]  It like scratches that itch like really well. And middleman works for me for static sites,
+[2170.06 --> 2178.52]  like really well. So where serve could grow is in becoming more like middleman, right?
+[2178.92 --> 2181.98]  And that's not, that doesn't make any sense because there's already middleman.
+[2182.52 --> 2190.00]  Well, but there's already middleman and, um, it's already solving that problem. So part,
+[2190.00 --> 2197.10]  I don't know, I, you know, I've having started, I guess if you count serve two major open source
+[2197.10 --> 2204.02]  projects, I'm more than content to let them die at this stage because of the amount of
+[2204.02 --> 2207.70]  management that they take. Why would this set your track record, John? You create CMSs
+[2207.70 --> 2216.30]  so they die or something like that. I, I don't know. I, I'm just saying that like open source
+[2216.30 --> 2222.56]  is a ton of work. Um, it is a ton of work and it's, I'm happy when another tool that's
+[2222.56 --> 2225.34]  better comes along and replaces something that I was working on.
+[2225.60 --> 2228.76]  What does that, what does that happen then? I know we're kind of hanging out on the serve
+[2228.76 --> 2234.20]  topic for a little bit, maybe too long, but, uh, bear with us listeners. But, uh, for serve,
+[2234.36 --> 2240.46]  do you have issues coming in often? Do you have people that are like using it for production
+[2240.46 --> 2245.18]  and you know, they're, they're bugging you about it? Is that, or is it, is it just kind
+[2245.18 --> 2245.48]  of quiet?
+[2245.66 --> 2250.82]  I mean, there's, there's, um, probably the biggest thing right now, right now is, uh, people really
+[2250.82 --> 2258.10]  want export to work exactly as it does when it's serving the project. And unfortunately,
+[2258.92 --> 2267.94]  um, because of the way rack middleware works and all of that, if you have certain things installed,
+[2267.94 --> 2275.46]  it's not going to render your site exactly as you wrote it. Now, if you're just doing vanilla
+[2275.46 --> 2281.38]  serve, it certainly will. Um, but if you started to do some customization, um, and all that,
+[2281.54 --> 2288.52]  the export doesn't know how to read your config.ru to figure out what, what that extra middleware
+[2288.52 --> 2295.88]  is doing kind of thing. Yeah. Um, so there's, there's some work that needs to be done basically
+[2295.88 --> 2302.26]  to give serve a configuration file to store some of those things in, uh, so that it can
+[2302.26 --> 2306.84]  use it when it's exporting, it can use the configuration part of it to figure out how to
+[2306.84 --> 2315.64]  rewrite URLs or, or various things like that. Um, yeah. And, and then there's things that
+[2315.64 --> 2321.74]  like, I mean, just comparing it to middleman, middleman just does so much better. Um, I mean,
+[2321.74 --> 2327.96]  I love being able to like access in code every single page on my site and build navigation or
+[2327.96 --> 2333.44]  do whatever I wanted. Whereas with serve, I would have to like write code to navigate the file system.
+[2334.38 --> 2342.70]  And there's no concept of like front matter or anything like that. Um, so it's a much,
+[2343.12 --> 2345.48]  much different system.
+[2345.48 --> 2351.10]  We're going to take a quick pause and give a shout out to our sponsor FreshBooks. Now we use FreshBooks.
+[2351.16 --> 2355.42]  We absolutely love FreshBooks. We couldn't do business without them. So I was super excited
+[2355.42 --> 2360.28]  to hear that they were supporting five by five and the change log. So, um, we, we just kind of got
+[2360.28 --> 2366.60]  through this tax season and I bet if you weren't using FreshBooks, your life was probably a bit of
+[2366.60 --> 2372.22]  a mess. And tell me if this sounds right, if this is you, you're hunting for receipts, digging through
+[2372.22 --> 2378.40]  invoices, going through every record one by one. And that's, that's the worst, you know,
+[2379.10 --> 2385.38]  FreshBooks is the simple cloud accounting solution that makes tax time a breeze. And with FreshBooks,
+[2385.46 --> 2390.52]  you can create professional looking invoices, capture and track expenses, uh, get real time
+[2390.52 --> 2395.66]  business reports with just a couple of clicks. Uh, I mean, plus you can work from anywhere with
+[2395.66 --> 2399.86]  FreshBooks. You got mobile apps, you got one for your phone, you got one for your tablet,
+[2399.86 --> 2404.16]  you can do it online, you know, through the webs. I mean, anywhere you are, you've got FreshBooks
+[2404.16 --> 2410.10]  available to you. And like I said, we use FreshBooks. Um, we do a lot of invoicing through
+[2410.10 --> 2417.78]  sponsorships and partners and stuff like that. So, I mean, we would, I don't know what I would do
+[2417.78 --> 2422.16]  if I didn't have FreshBooks. I just say it like that. I really don't. It's, it's the bee's knees
+[2422.16 --> 2427.94]  to our business. And the sooner you start using FreshBooks, the sooner you can start focusing on the work
+[2427.94 --> 2433.62]  you love. And instead of focusing on your, uh, on your, your paperwork, you can focus on the work.
+[2433.92 --> 2438.36]  And for a limited time, you can try FreshBooks for free for 60 days. Uh, to get started,
+[2438.48 --> 2444.56]  visit getfreshbooks.com now and enter the changelog in the, how did you hear about us section when
+[2444.56 --> 2449.62]  signing up? Huge thanks to FreshBooks for sponsoring a five by five of the changelog. We
+[2449.62 --> 2456.22]  absolutely love FreshBooks. See, I was never really a huge fan of,
+[2456.22 --> 2463.10]  I guess the front matter all the time. Cause I was, uh, for, for a while there, I had to write
+[2463.10 --> 2467.18]  everything in Hamill and I've since kind of like laid that down. I don't, I don't really,
+[2467.32 --> 2471.74]  you know, I don't have to write everything in Hamill anymore. I used to be a diehard Hamill fan.
+[2471.78 --> 2476.18]  Like I would not write it. And that's probably to my detriment that I wouldn't write it
+[2476.18 --> 2482.04]  unless it was an Hamill. Um, but you know, some front matter mixed with Hamill, a Hamill file kind
+[2482.04 --> 2487.30]  of, you know, your syntax highlighter kind of gets out of whack or whatever. But, um, yeah, I was,
+[2487.70 --> 2491.46]  I liked the, the, the front matter though of middleman. I think, you know, we were able to
+[2491.46 --> 2495.78]  like really extend things quite some, quite some bit and kind of going back to the SAS way.
+[2496.20 --> 2502.14]  One of the cool things you were doing, um, with this latest version is, is, um, what was the,
+[2502.14 --> 2508.44]  there's an article, I think it's in, um, it's still in a pull request for SAS three, three.
+[2509.38 --> 2516.48]  Yeah. So we, we wrote one for, we wrote an article for SAS three, three. And what's awesome
+[2516.48 --> 2522.80]  about this article from a technical perspective is, is that it has a completely different header
+[2522.80 --> 2530.28]  from all the other articles, which is something that I want to experiment, uh, with is, um, writing,
+[2530.28 --> 2536.22]  uh, or, or doing a little bit more art direction, I guess you could say with our articles. Um,
+[2536.60 --> 2543.96]  and so there's some HTML code that goes along with that CSS, all of that. Um, and we couldn't have
+[2543.96 --> 2551.02]  done that easily with something that wasn't a, uh, file-based kind of system. Um, I know there,
+[2551.02 --> 2557.86]  there are some plugins for WordPress for shipping custom CSS with each article kind of thing. Um,
+[2557.86 --> 2563.02]  you know, and I guess if you're writing a lot in HTML or other things like that, then,
+[2563.08 --> 2567.64]  you know, you could use a plugin and do it in WordPress, but again, you end up with stuff in
+[2567.64 --> 2574.20]  the database. And if you change something like, I don't know, there's just awkward relationship
+[2574.20 --> 2580.36]  on sites like that where, um, you're kind of mixing code design with content and it's,
+[2580.36 --> 2586.90]  yeah, not a perfect mix. Well, and what's, what's stored in the database and what's stored on,
+[2586.90 --> 2594.62]  you know, actually in code. Um, and if you don't store it in your Git repository, it's stored in
+[2594.62 --> 2600.54]  the database, then hopefully your database stores versions of stuff that you work on, but a lot of
+[2600.54 --> 2609.02]  times it doesn't. And, uh, so, and then, and because we can work in pull requests, uh, that can
+[2609.02 --> 2614.12]  sort of sit on its side with all the code changes that are needed. And then it can be merged in when,
+[2614.12 --> 2621.82]  when SAS 3.3 drops, um, you know, we'll pull that article over and, um, you know, it'll,
+[2622.04 --> 2628.78]  it'll work perfectly. Um, but until then we don't need all of that extra CSS and other stuff. Um,
+[2628.82 --> 2632.62]  and the site will continue to, you know, function. So.
+[2632.76 --> 2636.94]  And you were able to pull that, um, additional partial in for that kind of, like you'd mentioned
+[2636.94 --> 2641.08]  that art directed kind of editorial style header, the different header, you were able to do that
+[2641.08 --> 2649.28]  with just simple YAML or, uh, front matter. Right. Right. Yeah. The front matter concepts, uh,
+[2649.98 --> 2656.20]  pretty, pretty powerful. You can add whatever you want to it in middleman and, um, then in your
+[2656.20 --> 2661.78]  layout or whatever it is that you're, you know, you can check that front matter and, um, do something
+[2661.78 --> 2668.10]  based off of that. Um, there are times too, like one of the differences between Nesta and middleman
+[2668.10 --> 2674.14]  was that Nesta had the concept of page title. Is this right? Am I remembering this right? Or was
+[2674.14 --> 2680.62]  that some sort of custom attribute that you put on there? I can't recall. I think it did have a...
+[2680.62 --> 2687.34]  The way, the way our stuff was set up was that, uh, in Nesta, we had in the front matter, a title.
+[2687.52 --> 2696.88]  Yes. Yeah. And middleman by default didn't have that. Uh, sorry. No, the way Nesta works is it
+[2696.88 --> 2702.58]  grabs the H1. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't like that. It's not in the, in the front
+[2702.58 --> 2709.58]  matter. And so I had all these articles that had no titles, right? So, so what I did was I wrote a
+[2709.58 --> 2717.80]  helper that basically pre-renders the entire HTML. So it gets rendered twice and grabs the, the H1 and,
+[2717.92 --> 2724.22]  you know, pulls that out as the title for it. Um, and it works. It's amazing. It's amazing.
+[2724.22 --> 2730.88]  Like, yeah. The fact that you could do that in middleman is pretty awesome to me. Um, that
+[2730.88 --> 2734.68]  you, that you have access to like the whole document, you can render it however you want.
+[2735.04 --> 2740.54]  Um, it's very customizable. I like the fact that you were able to do a lot of stuff with,
+[2740.70 --> 2748.36]  um, with the URLs to like just trimming off things like .html if you had that and, um, you know,
+[2748.36 --> 2754.28]  the directories with indexes in them becoming, you know, uh, pretty URLs. And I think we even had an
+[2754.28 --> 2760.14]  issue with our comments when we first launched the SAS where we had, we forgot to put the trailing
+[2760.14 --> 2765.16]  backslash on there or I think it was on there by default with middleman and we wanted to pull it off
+[2765.16 --> 2771.92]  because the, the previous version of the site didn't, didn't handle, um, or didn't have a
+[2771.92 --> 2779.88]  trailing backslash, um, on the URL. And that actually caused, um, what is that we use for the
+[2779.88 --> 2785.50]  comments? Discus. Yeah. Discus. It caused that to think it was a different, you know, page. So
+[2785.50 --> 2790.08]  therefore it had a different, uh, comment stream and we were all, we're all just messed up there, but
+[2790.08 --> 2796.68]  got that fixed and it's still not technically fixed, but, uh, you know, yeah, we have the issues
+[2796.68 --> 2801.46]  still open. We're, we're getting close. You need to spend some time on that on a weekend or maybe,
+[2801.46 --> 2805.36]  maybe one of our listeners. Maybe, yeah, maybe a listener would fix that for us.
+[2807.22 --> 2811.70]  You see, you see what's going on here. This is just a giant conspiracy between Adam and me
+[2811.70 --> 2816.16]  to get you, the listener to write our code.
+[2819.16 --> 2824.26]  Yes. Yes. And our articles. Yes. Absolutely. Let's, you know what, speaking of that, let's give
+[2824.26 --> 2829.68]  some shout outs to those who have contributed to the SAS way over the years. You got me and you who
+[2829.68 --> 2834.02]  started it. Uh, I don't know if there are any particular, or I'm just going down the contributors
+[2834.02 --> 2841.06]  list on the SAS way, which is, uh, Mario Vicaldi, uh, Mason Wendell, Peter Gaston, who wrote a book
+[2841.06 --> 2847.08]  on CSS. I think it was, um, something on CSS three, like a couple of years ago. Really, really awesome
+[2847.08 --> 2853.80]  book. I liked it. Uh, Roy, not sure how you say your last name. Uh, Hugo, how would you say his last
+[2853.80 --> 2863.74]  name? Uh, I do not know. It's French. Uh, so I will need to try then. Uh, Girardelle, Girardelle.
+[2863.96 --> 2867.02]  I'm not sure. And then you got Frank S. I don't know what, I don't know why Frank is so elusive
+[2867.02 --> 2872.78]  with his last name, but Frank S. Well, that was just the awesome thing. Like here's this guy
+[2872.78 --> 2877.72]  posting from South Africa and he doesn't want to tell us his last name and I'm okay with that.
+[2877.72 --> 2883.38]  You know, Frank S. Cause he wrote an awesome article for us. He's got some more in the pipe
+[2883.38 --> 2891.32]  too, I think. Daniel, uh, Daniel M's, I'ms, probably I'ms, I'm gonna guess. And then over
+[2891.32 --> 2895.70]  the years too, we've also had, uh, Chris Epstein come and do some technical editing for us.
+[2895.94 --> 2903.26]  Wayne Netherland, um, has done some technical editing for us as well. And I don't think either
+[2903.26 --> 2909.70]  of them really ever plan to write anything. Um, I think Chris is just too busy anyways. And so is
+[2909.70 --> 2916.98]  Wynn, but they were definitely Sass fans, of course, Wynn and Chris wrote the book Sass and
+[2916.98 --> 2923.90]  that was Sass and Compass in Action from, um, uh, who's the Manny. I think that's right.
+[2925.32 --> 2929.56]  So, you know, obviously huge fans and, you know, there's been several times when we've had an
+[2929.56 --> 2932.80]  article go out that we're like, yeah, we need technical eyes on that one. Make sure that the,
+[2932.80 --> 2936.76]  you know, what we were talking about actually does make sense. And, and they come in and kind
+[2936.76 --> 2941.44]  of like do some blessing, but see, we always operated on GitHub before, but we just never
+[2941.44 --> 2946.68]  had it open. It was in a private repo and it was, you know, this kind of, so for any of you out there
+[2946.68 --> 2953.08]  who are rocking out private content based repos similar to the Sass way, you might want to consider
+[2953.08 --> 2959.86]  an open publishing, uh, methodology because I got to say, man, I think the, the, you know,
+[2959.86 --> 2966.82]  the new design definitely, um, lends to it being a middleman, being so easy to use, uh, lends to it.
+[2966.82 --> 2973.38]  But I think the future of the Sass way is definitely bright and being able to fork it. And we even have
+[2973.38 --> 2979.64]  a contributing doc to kind of guide you through actually contributing and whatnot. And I think
+[2979.64 --> 2984.22]  we've got some plans even to kind of earmark some different topics for people, lack of better terms,
+[2984.22 --> 2989.50]  maybe assignments to, so to speak. And if you want to pick it up, you can pick it up, uh, or bring
+[2989.50 --> 2994.30]  your own carrot and write about what you want. So that's, uh, pretty excited, man. Pretty excited
+[2994.30 --> 3006.56]  about it. Yeah. So, um, so I guess following the normal rhythm of doing a change log show, I know
+[3006.56 --> 3012.28]  this time is a little tiny bit different than maybe our past shows. Um, but I still want to treat it the
+[3012.28 --> 3017.04]  same in some respects. So, uh, we always ask some cool questions at the end that we're kind of known
+[3017.04 --> 3024.74]  for. And, um, the first question I'll ask you, John is, um, is if you weren't writing Sass,
+[3025.00 --> 3026.10]  what would you be writing?
+[3028.84 --> 3038.44]  I mean, definitely CSS, right? Um, I'm so grateful that there is, is Sass. Uh, I mean,
+[3038.44 --> 3045.30]  or maybe less if less was around. I don't know if there wasn't Sass, would we have stylus? Um,
+[3045.84 --> 3052.90]  I don't know. I don't know. Maybe. I mean, so I do other things, um, as well. I, I write a lot of
+[3052.90 --> 3060.66]  JavaScript. Uh, love JavaScript. Um, it's probably my favorite programming language these days. Uh,
+[3060.66 --> 3068.72]  it, I would, it would have definitely been Ruby. I love Ruby's elegance. Um, but I don't get to do a
+[3068.72 --> 3074.10]  lot of UI programming in Ruby. And I, I think that's why I love JavaScript. It just lets me get in there
+[3074.10 --> 3086.46]  and make stuff awesome. Um, yeah, I'm not a Hamill fan. Sorry. Yeah. I, uh, I've become not a Hamill fan.
+[3086.46 --> 3090.74]  Uh, I'd rather just keep it simple. I'm almost, I'm almost a purist at that point. Just
+[3090.74 --> 3099.06]  if I can't, I'm, I'd almost just rather write in the case of a Ruby project, like ERB or straight HTML.
+[3099.90 --> 3108.20]  Yeah. I like the other ways you can do, but I feel like I've kind of turned away from abstractions
+[3108.20 --> 3114.86]  lately. Like I like, you know, for the hardcore, uh, JavaScript, uh, developer who wants to use
+[3114.86 --> 3118.98]  CoffeeScript, that totally makes sense. And I think it makes sense to use it when it makes sense
+[3118.98 --> 3125.44]  for you and your project and your team. Um, you know, and the same with SAS and CSS, that relationship,
+[3125.54 --> 3129.74]  I feel like at each layer, there's some sort of abstraction, but with HTML, I just felt like,
+[3129.98 --> 3134.36]  like it was just didn't make any sense anymore for a while. I loved it, loved the short and easy
+[3134.36 --> 3138.12]  syntax, but after a while it would somehow bite you in the butt. So I just got sick of it.
+[3139.36 --> 3143.94]  And, uh, yeah, I mean, I had a kind of a similar journey with Hamill. Um, I mean, I know,
+[3143.94 --> 3148.74]  I remember thinking about it in terms of Rails views and this is technical, but that it seemed
+[3148.74 --> 3158.42]  to help make, um, our Rails view code cleaner, um, because it forced you to write stuff on one line
+[3158.42 --> 3165.18]  and whenever you just inserted a whole block of Ruby code in Hamill, it looks just awful. Um,
+[3165.52 --> 3170.88]  whereas in a regular view, you can kind of get away with it looking okay. Um,
+[3170.88 --> 3181.18]  so I, I did like that effect. Um, but at the same time, struggling with indentation and why is it not
+[3181.18 --> 3189.68]  rendering? And, um, I don't know. I'm, I, I've sort of backed away from that. I've also backed away
+[3189.68 --> 3195.78]  from the indented syntax on, on SAS for similar reasons in that it's just not enough like regular
+[3195.78 --> 3203.24]  web development, I think to, um, to merit like making and it doesn't have enough benefits
+[3203.24 --> 3206.08]  to merit an entirely new syntax.
+[3206.08 --> 3212.06]  Yeah. Um, that's, that's probably an easy way to sum up what I just said. I think that's how I feel
+[3212.06 --> 3217.30]  is like you almost put yourself on an Island doing that and it might be a good Island. And, you know,
+[3217.30 --> 3221.48]  like you had said, it might clean up your Rails view code in the, in the case of Hamill or something
+[3221.48 --> 3226.62]  like that. But what you end up doing is you got the community kind of going one direction and you're
+[3226.62 --> 3231.42]  over here and another, and you're hanging out in like white space aware land. And it's just,
+[3231.42 --> 3237.90]  you can't copy somebody else's code from a tutorial or you can't like easily riff or pair with somebody
+[3237.90 --> 3243.82]  or kind of share ideas. And I think even for like when you're collaborating over code, it's like,
+[3243.88 --> 3247.22]  well, you're using one version of the syntax and I'm using another. So we can't,
+[3247.22 --> 3250.14]  we can't work together. And that's, that's a problem.
+[3250.84 --> 3256.72]  Collaboration is really the thing. I mean, I, I already, I mean, I, I just hate that point in
+[3256.72 --> 3263.04]  any project where you're like, well, so what's your favorite tool to do this kind of thing?
+[3263.08 --> 3269.26]  You know, it's like, um, you know, I'd rather not have to make those decisions in some ways. Um,
+[3270.10 --> 3275.14]  you know, I, I mean, even less or SAS or, or other things like that, you know, I mean,
+[3275.14 --> 3283.60]  obviously I'm going to choose SAS. I write a blog about the SAS, but, um, but you know,
+[3283.74 --> 3288.40]  the fact is I'm going, there are going to be some, some of those battles on every project and
+[3288.40 --> 3290.48]  I just wasn't willing to fight the Hamill battle.
+[3291.74 --> 3294.68]  Yes. Yes. That's where I'm at with you. I'm, I'm right there.
+[3296.20 --> 3304.22]  Okay. Um, I guess that was a long answer, but, uh, totally cool. Okay. So if, uh, if you had a
+[3304.22 --> 3308.84]  weekend, totally free, uh, no one to hang out with nothing planned, nowhere to go, you kind
+[3308.84 --> 3313.58]  of just got this weekend all to yourself. Um, what open source projects are on your radar
+[3313.58 --> 3314.54]  that you're going to hack with?
+[3317.80 --> 3323.96]  Um, it could be something new. It could be something you've been wanting to play with for
+[3323.96 --> 3325.22]  a while, but just haven't had the time.
+[3325.22 --> 3333.80]  Um, I, I mean, I've been doing a lot of work with backbone lately. Um, I have a friend who's
+[3333.80 --> 3341.48]  a big fan of angular. Um, and I would love to probably do an app in angular just to get
+[3341.48 --> 3349.26]  a feel for how that works. Angular seems to have a lot of promise of, it's sort of an unstructured,
+[3349.26 --> 3354.72]  structured, it has structure, but it's, it's unstructured in a way that like, I feel like
+[3354.72 --> 3362.42]  maybe Ember, Ember JS is a little too structured, um, in terms of what it, and too opinionated
+[3362.42 --> 3366.64]  in terms of what it, what it does. And then backbone is like the reverse of that. It's like
+[3366.64 --> 3375.44]  no structure. And how do you do stuff, uh, in backbone at all? Oh, I got to write my own,
+[3375.44 --> 3380.36]  you know, it's like, it's like writing rails sometimes. Like you have to write your own
+[3380.36 --> 3385.72]  big chunks of the framework in order to get to work. Um, and angular seems to, I don't know,
+[3385.74 --> 3390.32]  a little bit more of a, of the right balance. I like their templating stuff. So I would probably,
+[3390.52 --> 3396.32]  if I was doing a new app, I'd probably work with angular. Um, that would be one thing.
+[3397.66 --> 3405.42]  Um, uh, I would be interested probably in doing, using, uh, SUSI in SAS.
+[3405.44 --> 3412.26]  Um, on a project, get a feel for it. I have heard some great things from Eric about SUSI too.
+[3413.28 --> 3417.10]  Um, he's been working on.
+[3417.54 --> 3424.42]  SUSI's got to be one of the oldest, um, I guess we used to call them grid frameworks and now
+[3424.42 --> 3431.04]  they've become just bootstraps or frameworks or I don't know, we know what you, CSS frameworks.
+[3431.70 --> 3435.52]  Like it started out as a grid and it was like the, it was the one that was,
+[3435.86 --> 3440.76]  I think I have the story right where it was based on somebody else's ideas, but it was written
+[3440.76 --> 3443.02]  specifically with SAS in mind.
+[3444.48 --> 3449.92]  Yeah. Well, I think that SUSI has been the enduring grid framework and SAS line.
+[3449.92 --> 3456.02]  Yeah. Um, it's been there through all the iterations of web development, like it pre-responsive,
+[3456.02 --> 3457.18]  post-responsive.
+[3458.24 --> 3459.24]  Right. Yeah.
+[3459.56 --> 3467.50]  And I, I think that like the, and I'm a big fan of a very modular approach to writing your,
+[3467.58 --> 3474.42]  your CSS. So like for the SAS way, we're using foundations grid framework actually. Um,
+[3474.42 --> 3480.80]  so spend a little bit of time and rip that out so that, you know, we could use it. Cause I like,
+[3480.80 --> 3486.82]  one of the things about foundation is, is that it has this concept of, for the responsive side of
+[3486.82 --> 3491.44]  things, like three different view, you have like your desktop, you have your tablet and then you have
+[3491.44 --> 3499.48]  your phone view essentially. And, um, you can put these classes on things to, to size it. And as a
+[3499.48 --> 3507.46]  basic default grid framework, it's amazing. But what, where like SUSI, like to me has some advantages
+[3507.46 --> 3514.84]  is in allowing you to just kind of go hog wild and crazy. And the way that you implement your,
+[3514.84 --> 3521.88]  your framework, like it has no requirements about like class names that you have to use or, um,
+[3522.40 --> 3529.38]  it's all mix in base then it's, it's, um, it's all mix in based. Uh, you know, I think he
+[3529.38 --> 3535.12]  has some like generators to make it easier for you. Um, but you can use it without using those
+[3535.12 --> 3542.44]  grid classes, which some people like, um, about it. I feel like you could use SUSI to kind of create
+[3542.44 --> 3548.50]  a custom framework for your website. So I'm very interested in it from, from that way. But again,
+[3548.56 --> 3554.38]  I mean, I haven't seriously used it. We're using it on, um, one of our user voice sites right now.
+[3554.38 --> 3562.30]  Um, so I've, I've sort of seen an implementation of it. Um, but yeah, I would, I, I, I definitely
+[3562.30 --> 3567.80]  think there's more to investigate there. Um, seems like a great framework.
+[3568.80 --> 3574.28]  So backbone you're a fan of, if you had a weekend free, you'd be hacking on Angular cause you want
+[3574.28 --> 3578.66]  to, you want to play with that and you've heard lots of good stuff about it. And if, uh, your front
+[3578.66 --> 3584.72]  end would, would use SUSI. Yeah, I think so. And so let's talk about maybe that just maybe
+[3584.72 --> 3590.18]  elongate that for like maybe one more minute, which is, um, you know, how well does the SAS
+[3590.18 --> 3595.62]  fit into it? Cause you have stylus in the JavaScript world, right? You got, um, that's kind of par for
+[3595.62 --> 3599.26]  the course of you're going to do something there. What happens whenever you want to use something
+[3599.26 --> 3610.16]  like SUSI, um, which is it compass agnostic or is it not? Um, it's a compass, a compass extension.
+[3610.42 --> 3616.04]  Yeah. Uh, it's built on top of compass. And, and the main reason to do that is that, um,
+[3616.58 --> 3624.68]  you can, you can basically package it up as a gem, your extension as a gem, and then compass
+[3624.68 --> 3631.20]  can load it from that gem. Um, whereas if, if you use something else, then you're, you
+[3631.20 --> 3637.04]  end up in a scenario where you dump your styles, the styles from that thing into a certain directory,
+[3637.04 --> 3644.58]  and then you have to figure out the loading yourself. Um, so the compass extensions, it,
+[3644.58 --> 3649.06]  it is a true compass extension in that regard. Yeah.
+[3649.06 --> 3655.44]  So you kind of got some, some hurdles to, to hop over to hack with angular and use compass
+[3655.44 --> 3661.52]  Ruby based gems potentially, or at least be both sides of the fence, right?
+[3662.28 --> 3667.50]  Yeah. It seems like a lot of SAS stuff is being distributed over, um, Bauer, like with JavaScript.
+[3667.98 --> 3677.16]  Um, so depending on what the backend is, I might end up using, uh, I don't know, that would
+[3677.16 --> 3680.42]  be interesting. Well, when you cross that bridge and you get that weekend, you let us know.
+[3681.54 --> 3685.04]  That's what I want to know. All right. Last question for you then. Um,
+[3687.02 --> 3691.06]  this is a fun one too. So, I mean, feel free to think on this one for, for about a half a second,
+[3691.06 --> 3697.94]  but, uh, who would you say is let's, let's open it up for you since you're a designer and developer
+[3697.94 --> 3705.18]  who is, you know, like your web hero, you know, who, who is someone that has kind of like either been
+[3705.18 --> 3709.74]  guidance to you? Maybe it's somebody who taught you early on, somebody took you into their wing,
+[3710.14 --> 3716.02]  could be whatever, could be, you know, a past school teacher that might've inspired you, but
+[3716.02 --> 3721.60]  who's someone you would, you would consider a hero, um, to you in terms of web development?
+[3721.60 --> 3737.00]  Um, I mean, it's probably, I mean, there's definitely a bunch of people in my life in that way. Um,
+[3738.04 --> 3746.20]  different coworkers, bosses, that kind of thing. In terms of a inspirational kind of person,
+[3746.20 --> 3754.70]  I would probably have to go with, uh, Sean Inman. Um, and what he's done in sort of,
+[3755.62 --> 3761.08]  Sean does design and development, uh, and he's built his own products and that's kind of the
+[3761.08 --> 3769.88]  intersection of like all of the things I love. Um, so I, I admire him a whole lot. Uh, I, I would
+[3769.88 --> 3775.24]  love to do exactly what he's doing right now, getting into like game development. And I don't know,
+[3775.24 --> 3780.56]  it seems like, uh, I'd love going over to his blog and looking at what he's working on. So he,
+[3780.56 --> 3789.20]  I mean, he's definitely one. Um, yeah, I mean so many, so many web heroes, Douglas Bowman, uh,
+[3789.34 --> 3799.02]  used to be a big fan of his. Uh, I can remember when I was working on Radiant, um, I, uh, the way
+[3799.02 --> 3803.46]  that he had built his site, like I tried to make Radiant so that it could do a site like his really
+[3803.46 --> 3810.14]  easily. He, he used to curate links on design and books and all of those types of things. So I
+[3810.14 --> 3816.96]  wanted Radiant to be able to make it easy to curate those, um, you know, lists of things and,
+[3816.96 --> 3827.22]  and it did. Um, so yeah, I don't know. It's, it's really interesting that when I first got into web
+[3827.22 --> 3837.10]  development, there were all of these guys that I looked up to, um, and it seems like some of them
+[3837.10 --> 3842.62]  have, are not as active anymore in communicating. Nobody blogs anymore, I guess is what it is.
+[3842.72 --> 3847.36]  Everybody micro blogs. I mean, that's, it's the Twitter thing, you know, everybody's there.
+[3847.36 --> 3855.54]  Yeah. Twitter. You know, it's, it's kind of changed. I mean, um, well, Doug, you know,
+[3855.64 --> 3860.02]  you said Douglas Bowman, so he used to blog a lot and he doesn't blog much anymore. And I think Sean
+[3860.02 --> 3865.18]  Emmons did as well. And I think that was the rage was, that was the way we kind of originally began,
+[3865.18 --> 3871.98]  um, to social network, you know, and then since then actual social networks with following and
+[3871.98 --> 3878.46]  actual lists, not blog roles in your sidebar sort of took over that, uh, you know, replaced that older
+[3878.46 --> 3885.14]  model and people, they, they, you're right. They do blog a lot less. I think before we kind of had to,
+[3885.18 --> 3890.64]  to get our opinions out there, whereas now there's different ways we can share our opinions like on
+[3890.64 --> 3896.42]  podcasts and stuff like that. But, uh, Sean Emmons, I think he's been mentioned at least once before,
+[3896.42 --> 3901.96]  for sure, as a, as a hero on the show. And I gotta agree, I'm huge on him and fan. Um,
+[3901.96 --> 3910.18]  I think I can't even imagine how awesome that guy is to be able to design code, think through
+[3910.18 --> 3918.18]  products. And he's a game designer. I mean, like he can, he did that. Um, I forget what this,
+[3918.32 --> 3923.24]  what the project was called. I think it was called like retro something, um, on Kickstarter. He and I
+[3923.24 --> 3928.96]  think two or three other fellows were doing like really quick iterative game design where like they'd do
+[3928.96 --> 3934.54]  a game a week or something like that or a game a month. And it was, I, I backed that and got the
+[3934.54 --> 3940.24]  t-shirt to prove it, but, uh, literally got the t-shirt to prove it. Um, and that wasn't just a
+[3940.24 --> 3944.78]  joke or something to say, but I think he's an awesome guy, man. Like, I think he is just really
+[3944.78 --> 3949.88]  talented and it's those kinds of people that, man, you just wish they shared a bit more.
+[3949.88 --> 3955.44]  Yeah. Seriously. Doug, why are you not blogging anymore? I don't mean like, you know,
+[3955.48 --> 3961.20]  why don't you blog every day, but like, you know, they've got such insights to like, um, you know,
+[3961.24 --> 3966.62]  Doug is a really, really blessed designer. He's had a really great track history of great design,
+[3966.70 --> 3972.36]  everything from the version two, I think, which is kind of forever ago of wired and a number of other
+[3972.36 --> 3978.16]  like redesigns that he was a part of. And now he's leading design at Twitter and he's, you know,
+[3978.16 --> 3982.72]  a part of the team that's responsible for all the new great ways Twitter's rolling out their design
+[3982.72 --> 3987.54]  sign. I, I don't mean share like that. I mean, share some of their wisdom, you know?
+[3989.10 --> 3996.60]  Yeah. I mean, I think it, it's definitely a season thing, um, for a lot of those guys. I,
+[3996.60 --> 4002.86]  I mean, it's, it's, it's hard to be in the public spot spotlight in that regard. I, I've heard that
+[4002.86 --> 4016.50]  about Sean that, um, he never really expected to become one of the web gods and, uh, that,
+[4016.58 --> 4022.26]  that he's, he's really a, you know, kind of a quiet guy in that regard, humble person. Um,
+[4022.58 --> 4028.74]  yeah. And, uh, very talented, but, um, you know, just wasn't expecting to be in the spotlight and
+[4028.74 --> 4034.74]  I don't know. I, I, yeah, but the fans, we guys, we want to know.
+[4036.18 --> 4041.26]  We'll have to get Sean on the show. Cause I mean, I know that he's, um, I'm not sure how active he,
+[4041.26 --> 4047.50]  he is an open source, but, um, we'll have to get into at least release something, uh, open source.
+[4047.58 --> 4051.22]  We can get him on the show. It's kind of like part of the course. You have to, you know,
+[4051.34 --> 4055.88]  Oh, you have to release something. I mean, you know, it's the change log, you know,
+[4055.88 --> 4066.20]  open source moves fast. Keep up. Yeah. So we need a new show where we can, we can just interview,
+[4066.20 --> 4073.14]  interview our, our heroes here. Well, you know, to, to speak on that, I mean, I think one of the
+[4073.14 --> 4081.00]  things we want to do here, um, is I would like to do, I would like to have more shows, but the,
+[4081.00 --> 4087.48]  the problem that comes into play is, is the same reason with open source. You just have only a
+[4087.48 --> 4092.40]  limited amount of time. And so I've just tried to like bite off only as much as I can chew. Cause
+[4092.40 --> 4098.56]  if I, I want to do everything I do to excellence, you know, I don't want to like half bought anything.
+[4098.86 --> 4104.86]  Yeah. I kind of get that. I do wonder about like a special feature though, or something. I don't know.
+[4104.86 --> 4110.96]  Yeah. Something to think about. We'll do it though. I mean, cause it's actually, um, an idea I've
+[4110.96 --> 4116.86]  wanted to do, which was just, um, take the show that we have here. Cause it's pretty popular.
+[4117.24 --> 4121.74]  It's on five by five. You know, everyone who listens to it, loves it. A lot of people write in,
+[4122.28 --> 4126.60]  um, and say it's their favorite show. And I appreciate everyone who does that. I mean,
+[4126.62 --> 4131.38]  it's certainly the star spirits and keeps the team, you know, motivated and whatnot. But,
+[4131.38 --> 4136.66]  um, I'd like to expand a little bit more on the show and do something a little different. I think
+[4136.66 --> 4140.76]  the show is great. We have people on, we talk about open source and it's kind of got this rhythm,
+[4140.76 --> 4146.40]  but I kind of want to break it up and do, um, not so much more shows, but like different segments,
+[4146.72 --> 4152.44]  you know, not always do the same exact show every time. Yeah. I mean, I think there's something along
+[4152.44 --> 4158.36]  the lines of like the, you know, you have the news every night, but then there's like, um, the morning
+[4158.36 --> 4163.32]  show and, you know, other things like that. Exactly. You know, there's, there's gotta be
+[4163.32 --> 4167.76]  room to kind of branch out a little bit. We're gonna, long story short, we're gonna,
+[4168.20 --> 4175.44]  we're gonna, um, play with that idea a bit more, but, uh, no promises. We'll see.
+[4176.72 --> 4181.62]  It's on our, uh, it's on our to-do list of thinking through that's for sure. But yeah,
+[4181.70 --> 4185.74]  you know, John, it's been great having you back on the show. I think that, um, you know,
+[4185.74 --> 4191.16]  in all ways that you contribute to open source. I know that I've certainly learned a lot from you've
+[4191.16 --> 4196.30]  been a great friend over the years and, um, you know, working with you on the SAS way and all
+[4196.30 --> 4201.80]  that it's going to do in the community is just looking forward to where, where we're taking that.
+[4201.86 --> 4205.78]  And I think, you know, we'll say it here just because I know we're going to do it soon, but
+[4205.78 --> 4211.68]  we've talked about, um, SAS weekly or some sort of weekly newsletter we're going to do. So we're
+[4211.68 --> 4216.88]  starting to execute on that as well. And that'll be open as well. Um, the same as,
+[4217.02 --> 4221.40]  as everything else is. I'm really excited about the future, man, for us.
+[4222.44 --> 4225.24]  Yeah, me too. Very, very excited about it.
+[4225.44 --> 4232.04]  And, uh, yeah, the, the SAS way.com go there. Um, github.com slash the SAS way.
+[4232.46 --> 4237.04]  We've got a couple repos there. We've got our identity repo there. If you need to use a logo,
+[4237.04 --> 4241.66]  uh, by the way, we didn't even get to mention that, but Berman painter, thank you so much for
+[4241.66 --> 4249.50]  your hard work on SAS's logo. And then subsequently our, our inheritance of, uh, of your skills to
+[4249.50 --> 4254.70]  rock out the SAS way. And then I guess you, John, for your tweaked version of it, right? Your tweaked
+[4254.70 --> 4259.82]  version is a little bit different than Berman's, but using his art. So it's good stuff.
+[4259.82 --> 4265.90]  Yeah. Berman got it going for us. And, um, then I, I sort of put together the final,
+[4265.90 --> 4273.36]  uh, part of it, but it's his brushstrokes that are amazing. But yeah, the SAS way.com,
+[4273.48 --> 4279.08]  uh, github.com slash the SAS way. If you want to fork the repo and share your thoughts,
+[4279.16 --> 4283.28]  open an issue. If you just want to chime in with us and say hello, I mean, issues don't have to just
+[4283.28 --> 4290.04]  be problems. That could be ideas. Say hello. Um, and, and we'd, we'd love to hear your thoughts on
+[4290.04 --> 4297.00]  your, uh, what, what gets you excited about SAS and writing CSS the SAS way and just get you excited
+[4297.00 --> 4302.26]  about design. So share your thoughts, but I also want to give a shout out to our, uh, our sponsors
+[4302.26 --> 4307.54]  of the show, digital ocean and top top for supporting the show. We definitely love you guys.
+[4307.54 --> 4314.14]  Digital ocean.com and top towel.com T O P T A L.com. Not, uh, somebody wrote in and said,
+[4314.20 --> 4319.64]  I'm not sure what you say when you say top towel, Adam, is it, is it top like towel, like a bath towel?
+[4319.86 --> 4328.68]  And I'm like, I can't help it. They got a hard to pronounce business name. Um, it's top towel T O P T A L.com.
+[4329.58 --> 4333.18]  But, uh, yeah, John, thank you so much for, for joining us today on the show. And thanks
+[4333.18 --> 4338.22]  so much for all that you do, uh, until we hear from you again, let's say goodbye for now.
+[4338.64 --> 4340.04]  Okay. Thanks so much.
+[4363.18 --> 4381.44]  Thanks.

Xiki and Reimagining the Shell_transcript.txt

@@ -0,0 +1,731 @@
+[0.00 --> 13.84]  welcome back everyone this is the changelog where our member supported blog podcast
+[13.84 --> 19.66]  and weekly email come what's fresh and what's new in open source check out the blog at the
+[19.66 --> 26.40]  changelog.com our past shows at five by five dot tv slash changelog and you're listening to episode
+[26.40 --> 34.62]  126 jared and i talked to craig muth about ziki a cool new project that brings the power of shell
+[34.62 --> 41.08]  commands to everyone it's a pretty wild and deep conversation we have with craig so definitely
+[41.08 --> 47.42]  hang on to your seats today's show is sponsored by digital ocean code ship and top tile we'll tell
+[47.42 --> 52.72]  you a bit more about our friends at code ship and top tile later on but digital ocean is simple cloud
+[52.72 --> 60.08]  hosting built for developers in just 55 seconds you can join over 150 000 developers who deploy
+[60.08 --> 68.88]  daily to digital oceans ssd cloud enjoy the ease of use and speed of an ssd only cloud create droplets
+[68.88 --> 75.98]  manage your dns build a new server from a snapshot save a ton of time installing rails docker gitlab
+[75.98 --> 82.14]  and more with one click installs you can even scale your infrastructure with their intuitive api
+[82.14 --> 90.56]  sign up today and use the code changelog july or changelog august to get a 10 hosting credit when
+[90.56 --> 95.46]  you sign up head to digitalocean.com to get started and now on to the show
+[95.46 --> 105.52]  we're joined today by craig muth he is uh i don't know craig you're doing some crazy stuff um some are
+[105.52 --> 111.76]  saying change the way shell works um you're here to talk about this very cool project you
+[111.76 --> 118.76]  have started i guess 10 years ago zicky which is super powerful for the shell and uh and some
+[118.76 --> 124.86]  pretty cool stuff so we also have jared santo on the call as well doing some doing some uh some
+[124.86 --> 131.98]  heavy lifting here right jared yo what's up how's it going guys yes yeah i'm here heavy lifting um i
+[131.98 --> 136.24]  don't know what that is but uh that's how it goes but craig welcome to the show finally i you're a
+[136.24 --> 141.16]  listener of the show right yes big fan how many how many changelog shows have you listened to
+[141.16 --> 146.90]  oh man probably about some somewhere around 10 just like sort of like spread out uh all over the place
+[146.90 --> 155.66]  you got a favorite money chance um let's see i uh i'm a big fan of rethink db so that was a good one
+[155.66 --> 161.84]  that was a good show um i didn't know we're gonna have a quiz section i'm a big fan of avdi's and a
+[161.84 --> 167.10]  huge fan of pair programming so that was that was a pretty good one for me as well yes yeah i think
+[167.10 --> 173.44]  a lot of people have uh have enjoyed that show as well it's a good show cool yeah totally so i guess
+[173.44 --> 177.40]  let's kick off with i guess why we're on this call you reached out to us a couple days ago because
+[177.40 --> 182.20]  you got a kickstarter ending we'll fast forward to like the now present and kind of rewind and play
+[182.20 --> 187.48]  back cool but like right now you're dealing with a pretty much what i can tell is a 10 year old
+[187.48 --> 193.24]  project that's uh just now kind of getting some real limelight you've been using for a very long
+[193.24 --> 197.58]  time but now you also have a kickstarter going on to kind of help fund it to the next level and this
+[197.58 --> 204.00]  isn't the first time we've had a uh an open source project on the show that's primarily start well not
+[204.00 --> 208.26]  primarily but started from a kickstarter and and so that's where you're at right now why don't you
+[208.26 --> 213.94]  give the listeners kind of a an intro to who you are and kind of what zicky is and what you're doing and
+[213.94 --> 221.36]  maybe even why my kickstarter okay yeah sure um i'm uh i'm a coder first and foremost i've always
+[221.36 --> 226.70]  kind of loved coding i uh grew up in ohio kind of started out like most of us just kind of hacking
+[226.70 --> 231.96]  around and and doing things doing a bunch of coding that i really kind of got excited about
+[231.96 --> 238.36]  um went to school got beaten down a little bit and uh taught i to do some structure my first
+[238.36 --> 243.72]  consulting job i i really bought into the like high structure o-o stuff for everything and uh
+[243.72 --> 250.14]  kind of had phases back and forth but i've always had a kind of a rebellious streak against uh against
+[250.14 --> 256.10]  high structure high abstraction and um i've kind of uh kind of that was my cat in the background
+[256.10 --> 264.48]  she says hi um so i've kind of always had this uh rebellious streak and i've kind of i feel like
+[264.48 --> 272.38]  over the last um 10 years i've kind of watched people kind of also gain a rebellious streak like
+[272.38 --> 276.76]  for example you used to not really be able to just have a hash that wasn't acceptable and like
+[276.76 --> 281.60]  pass around the values of a form field now everyone does it there used to be no such thing as json you
+[281.60 --> 287.40]  had to have objects and structure for everything now everyone will put something into json uh wikis are
+[287.40 --> 294.44]  becoming a big thing and uh i sort of you know had all these ideas that i kind of suppressed and
+[294.44 --> 299.82]  squashed and just used on my own uh it's actually more like 13 or 14 years from the beginning but it
+[299.82 --> 304.32]  started out pretty rough and it didn't even have have a name in the beginning it's just a bunch of
+[304.32 --> 313.50]  collections of uh of elisp uh stuff basically where i could expand stuff in the shell and uh run um
+[313.50 --> 319.36]  expand file paths in the shell navigate files and then um run shell commands like in a text buffer
+[319.36 --> 327.28]  um and i just i just had a few like moments where i realized like wow you actually can do these very
+[327.28 --> 333.76]  flexible things but have them be in a pretty nice structure sort of like the first time i saw wiki it
+[333.76 --> 339.94]  blew me away i kind of thought wow you can actually have that just these big text files where you uh put
+[339.94 --> 346.44]  free form text in with headings and then that's you know just a flat namespace uh you know where
+[346.44 --> 353.16]  you've got like uh everything dumped in you've got a project page next to a page of contacts next to
+[353.16 --> 358.08]  everything else and like wow that simple thing can like be a better solution than like a big massive
+[358.08 --> 366.22]  uh file you know uh shared directory of of of stuff for your for your company or you know it can be
+[366.22 --> 371.46]  can be better than sharepoint so yeah i've kind of like held on to this zicky idea for a long time
+[371.46 --> 377.96]  and i've kind of come to believe it's kind of a pretty big missing piece in the landscape of um
+[377.96 --> 386.14]  of tech and um i uh so i was working for banks and insurance companies in ohio eventually kind of
+[386.14 --> 395.00]  realized i needed to get out um and i moved out to silicon valley uh to san francisco decided i was
+[395.00 --> 401.82]  going to work on my my startup memorize.com which i i did and had interns and and uh part-time employees
+[401.82 --> 408.14]  and uh kind of probably should be focusing on that now but instead decided to take a big risk and work
+[408.14 --> 418.46]  on this uh crazy open source thing full-time zicky um and uh the kickstarter uh i think now is is the
+[418.46 --> 422.92]  time to bring it to the world if you look at my uh github page you'll see a lot of of issues of
+[422.92 --> 429.86]  people saying like hey uh had really liked this but had a hard time installing it um and that's
+[429.86 --> 434.44]  sort of because i've been i've been neglecting people um i've basically wanted to make it for
+[434.44 --> 440.14]  myself i use it for everything for development and notes and everything and um i've kind of
+[440.14 --> 446.18]  intentionally let it let the installer be crappy for a while because i almost didn't want people to
+[446.18 --> 450.58]  use it because i had all these features that's a good way to not let them use it is just keep
+[450.58 --> 456.20]  a feature suppressed yeah i'm not even i'm super proud of that but i wasn't really suppressing
+[456.20 --> 459.80]  features it was just i wasn't improving installer because i would spend time on it and it would take
+[459.80 --> 466.02]  a lot of time uh but i had these this like list of three really big things i wanted to do and i just
+[466.02 --> 469.54]  recently i've kind of finished them up so now i'm to the point i'm like all right it's ready for the
+[469.54 --> 475.46]  world and uh kickstarter seemed like a good way to to reach out so you have a really solid video on
+[475.46 --> 480.60]  the kickstarter page but for those listening can you give kind of the the elevator pitch for ziki
+[480.60 --> 486.26]  um what it does and how it's different than what we currently have sure um yeah there are a lot of
+[486.26 --> 494.76]  ways of describing ziki the simplest way is it's like a command line uh but it's a better way of
+[494.76 --> 499.98]  running shell commands it's not meant to replace the command line it's meant to augment it um so for
+[499.98 --> 506.24]  example if you do an ls instead of then having to do a cd to like you know the fourth directory that
+[506.24 --> 511.52]  you see on the screen and ziki you can just move your cursor down to that fourth directory and then
+[511.52 --> 518.88]  control enter to expand so you can navigate directories like um kind of like a gui app um
+[518.88 --> 524.94]  and then when you run shell commands you can uh you can type a prompt on any line in basically a big
+[524.94 --> 530.00]  text area by just typing a dollar sign rather than being restricted to the uh you know the single
+[530.00 --> 536.56]  prompt at the bottom as is the case with traditional shell consoles and then anytime you run a command
+[536.56 --> 542.78]  you can immediately type to incrementally filter down the output and then with many commands you can
+[542.78 --> 550.02]  move your cursor down to the output of like say git if you uh type git and you move your cursor down to
+[550.02 --> 556.16]  log and control enter it'll expand that and run the git log command for you and if you then move it down
+[556.16 --> 563.56]  to a commit and expand that it'll go one little deeper and show you you know your commit message
+[563.56 --> 569.18]  and all the files and then you can drill in and and uh interact with the output as though it was like a
+[569.18 --> 576.10]  gui tree so it's very free form just like a wiki yeah very free form you can edit anything
+[576.10 --> 584.82]  so in practice i i suppose um how many users has it had i know you have on your video a couple guys
+[584.82 --> 589.78]  who said i've been using it for seven years i'm sure that's not in the current form but in this
+[589.78 --> 594.16]  in the in the one that you show in the video where it's free form and you can click here and you can
+[594.16 --> 599.02]  drill down in trees and stuff how many people uh have been using that or how long have you been
+[599.02 --> 605.14]  using that in practice and how does it feel as opposed to what we currently do the uh drilling into the
+[605.14 --> 611.30]  file trees has been there since pretty much the day one so that my two uh friends that have used it
+[611.30 --> 615.74]  for for years and years they they use that the file tree drilling into the output of shell commands is
+[615.74 --> 620.66]  relatively new so there aren't many people that that use it um and there are a few people here and
+[620.66 --> 624.62]  there out of the net that have got it installed um it's hard for me to estimate it's relatively low
+[624.62 --> 630.74]  number because the install is kind of not great uh as far as how it how it feels um i don't know
+[630.74 --> 635.28]  like some people it's hard to say i think it's an individual experience like some people
+[635.28 --> 641.38]  just really really get it and they're like whoa i can see how this these you know two or three things
+[641.38 --> 646.34]  would be an improvement i can filter down i can drill in i can copy and paste a command and run it
+[646.34 --> 651.16]  again and still have the old outputs and i can delete the lines and the output that i i want because
+[651.16 --> 654.94]  like you said that everything's free form you can edit everything and some people just say like well
+[654.94 --> 660.96]  wait a minute why wouldn't i just use my shell to me it feels just just sort of natural and and
+[660.96 --> 665.36]  like and like obvious improvements for you know for some cases not all it's not meant like it's a
+[665.36 --> 669.00]  different place the shell there's some things the shell is like really great at like asynchronous stuff
+[669.00 --> 678.62]  it kind of feels like not exactly like this but it kind of feels like um like what is the like
+[678.62 --> 683.58]  like kind of an irb session where you can kind of jump into what's the other kind of really awesome
+[683.58 --> 688.94]  irb jared the the one that's out recently i don't use a proc is it what is it called again
+[688.94 --> 694.76]  pri right yeah pri that's what it is um actually did a pairing session with conrad erwin one of
+[694.76 --> 700.08]  erwin one of the pri guys uh yeah pri is awesome yeah it seems a little bit like i mean obviously that's
+[700.08 --> 707.38]  you know ruby but um this is kind of everything it seems a little like what that provides but on a
+[707.38 --> 715.42]  grander scale for the entire shell yeah it's um it's they're a little different uh like basically
+[715.42 --> 721.82]  in ziki everything is just happens from a text file uh so you know when they when you run a command
+[721.82 --> 727.12]  the output is just inserted as text into your text file then you can save it uh pri is is kind of more
+[727.12 --> 734.02]  along the lines of like you know um a repl and has some other cool integration points but yeah when i
+[734.02 --> 739.12]  when i got together with conrad erwin uh several months ago we had some really cool ideas for kind
+[739.12 --> 745.10]  of the two complementing each other like making a ziki interface a ziki command that could call the
+[745.10 --> 750.34]  pri features and sort of drill in and like cdls into the functions and stuff i want to get back to
+[750.34 --> 755.00]  that at some point because i think that'd be really awesome i was gonna say i think interactions are
+[755.00 --> 759.70]  really it seems like from your kickstarter that's one of the main focuses of your development uh roadmap
+[759.70 --> 766.64]  is to get it integrated into vim into emacs into sublime text and so on um right now is it kind of
+[766.64 --> 773.58]  in its own world and it's not really integrated into the environment well right now it supports um aquamax
+[773.58 --> 780.54]  and emacs okay those two text editors aquamax is is basically a very user-friendly version of emacs where
+[780.54 --> 786.12]  you can command c command v uh you can use the mouse to select text and you can type to replace you know
+[786.12 --> 792.88]  it's very much like a mac native text editor uh so that's the the editor i recommend people to use
+[792.88 --> 796.18]  they can you know if they don't like emacs they don't have to really know it's emacs they can use
+[796.18 --> 802.14]  the menus and stuff and they can use you know command s to save etc so it runs in that as sort of the
+[802.14 --> 810.14]  default and then it also runs in like base uh uh emacs and terminal emacs and yeah there's
+[810.14 --> 815.98]  tentative vim support but it's very very weak there's a tentative sublime support but it needs
+[815.98 --> 818.96]  to be improved which is what the kickstarter is half of what the kickstarter is about
+[818.96 --> 826.20]  um and there's this brand new xsh where you can run it right from the in the shell console it's not
+[826.20 --> 832.38]  released yet that's i'm going to do first and that'll let people just type xsh space you know
+[832.38 --> 836.84]  get on the command line and they don't even have to worry about setting anything up it'll just pop up
+[836.84 --> 842.18]  and i'll have uh stuff right there on the screen saying hey type control q to quit and type control e to
+[842.18 --> 847.74]  expand so that's probably going to be the defaults that just xsh right from the i'd be pretty good
+[847.74 --> 853.14]  for learning people too like you know just getting started you get all those all the feedback basically
+[853.14 --> 860.72]  from the cli that's already present for git and you know do you want to do a push or do you want to
+[860.72 --> 866.66]  pull those kind of things are like already accessible and it's also keyboard navigatable so it's not like
+[866.66 --> 870.04]  you have to move your mouse around but though you could right you can double click on things if you
+[870.04 --> 878.98]  want as well you're right so you said xsh um this piece of it does it pop its own window when you do
+[878.98 --> 883.86]  that because i know it's very interactive clickable um or can it take over your current terminal session
+[883.86 --> 890.06]  or does it pop its own ui it takes over the current terminal session what's actually happening behind
+[890.06 --> 896.74]  the scenes is it's launching uh emacs okay but i'm overriding all the keyboard shortcuts uh including
+[896.74 --> 902.18]  including escape i'll make escape actually cancel out so it won't confuse people uh so as far as most
+[902.18 --> 906.64]  people are concerned they don't even have to know what it is i'll have all the key shortcuts on the
+[906.64 --> 912.94]  screen they're all they're all remapped not all of them you can use the the base uh emacs shortcuts if
+[912.94 --> 917.34]  you know them but yeah it's just it's just actually running within emacs and just customizing the heck out
+[917.34 --> 923.34]  of it and it's doing it in a way that's not interfering with uh your normal emacs config if you have it which
+[923.34 --> 930.68]  is a big you know challenge that i've had that makes a lot of sense i was wondering how you're
+[930.68 --> 936.26]  accomplishing that what about operating system support is this uh linux and mac at the moment
+[936.26 --> 942.58]  yeah linux and mac um there's a pull request for uh for windows support out there um that might
+[942.58 --> 948.44]  might go a little little bit of the way toward uh windows support i'd like to do windows support um
+[948.44 --> 953.30]  now that i've got all this publicity from the kickstarter i think if it passes i'll be able
+[953.30 --> 957.42]  to reach out to people afterward and say like hey people that know how to do this process
+[957.42 --> 962.46]  communication and windows like pair with me and help me on it but i don't i'm not promising windows
+[962.46 --> 965.70]  support as part of the kickstarter even though a lot of people want me to just because i don't
+[965.70 --> 972.64]  you know i've already kind of promised a lot but i do want to do it well uh jerry do you think it
+[972.64 --> 976.36]  makes sense to dab down kickstarter kind of go i want to i was thinking about going into the past a bit
+[976.36 --> 980.70]  to try to figure out where this what was the problem you kind of tackled where did this come
+[980.70 --> 985.60]  from what's the history it's like 10 years old so it's not like it's a year old it's it's pretty
+[985.60 --> 991.48]  dated yeah in terms of its age you know not so much not good and i'm interested in i guess a little
+[991.48 --> 996.00]  bit of the technical implementation i'm sure for a 10 plus year project it's probably gone through
+[996.00 --> 1001.86]  different forms i know it seems to be written in ruby at the moment but perhaps not always so i'm
+[1001.86 --> 1006.48]  definitely interested in the history of of how you developed it cool yeah originally it was an
+[1006.48 --> 1014.34]  elisp right um i originally just absolutely hated and despised emacs because i started from like a
+[1014.34 --> 1019.44]  mac gui uh you know actually i started before that that's not true i did my first experience was apple
+[1019.44 --> 1026.70]  2e and basic uh when i was really young and then um then i you know got a mac and just loved it loved
+[1026.70 --> 1030.88]  it loved it went to college and they're like here use emacs and i was like where's you know where are the
+[1030.88 --> 1037.42]  menu items this is horrible uh i started using pico instead which is where i got the inspiration for
+[1037.42 --> 1042.00]  seeing the keyboard shortcuts on the screen i was just talking about but then i i kind of fell in
+[1042.00 --> 1051.20]  love with with emacs and uh loved what it did and like the just the free form aspects of it but i always
+[1051.20 --> 1058.06]  hated the default keyboard shortcuts and still kind of do and um i i use it for all kinds of things and
+[1058.06 --> 1066.40]  it seemed like a one big missing piece was a cool file navigation and i i always want to be able to
+[1066.40 --> 1074.08]  have kind of extreme flexibility um and the file navigation that was kind of ideal for me was being
+[1074.08 --> 1080.06]  able to control edit anything at any time so you know if i have a directory of say you know 20 models
+[1080.06 --> 1085.70]  and i only care about uh two of them and one starts with a a and one starts with a z i don't want to
+[1085.70 --> 1089.80]  scroll back and forth between the two i want to delete the ones in between just temporarily you
+[1089.80 --> 1098.96]  know hide them from the view so i made basically a file browsing uh you know format which is just
+[1098.96 --> 1104.72]  you know the most obvious thing you can do which is like you basically type a path with slashes and
+[1104.72 --> 1110.60]  then if you want to make it multi-line you can uh you indent two spaces so you know like
+[1110.60 --> 1119.66]  um slash project slash and then line break space space and then my project basically taking that
+[1119.66 --> 1126.70]  and making that navigable the uh keyboard shortcuts and then later the mouse um so yeah it started out
+[1126.70 --> 1133.02]  as elisp i made that in elisp i made the uh running shell commands which is pretty similar since you type
+[1133.02 --> 1138.00]  a dollar sign space and like ls and then it inserts the result indented two spaces underneath
+[1138.00 --> 1145.86]  uh implemented the filtering down and um tons of keyboard shortcuts and just kept changing things
+[1145.86 --> 1152.16]  over and over and over and eventually discovered i uh well i became a ruby programmer in the meantime
+[1152.16 --> 1158.40]  and just loved ruby and dhh kind of just rocked everyone's world with with rails and you know had
+[1158.40 --> 1166.74]  this just beautiful combination of of sort of um uh flexibility and yet structure where it was needed in
+[1166.74 --> 1171.72]  rails and i just totally bought into it became a rails programmer loved ruby because i liked the
+[1171.72 --> 1178.28]  oh stuff i could do in java but love the i i started out with pearl and loved the flexibility of pearl and
+[1178.28 --> 1184.96]  ruby was like a perfect marriage of the two so i found this uh library called el4r like elisp for ruby
+[1184.96 --> 1190.96]  written by one of the core ruby guys this guy named rubikitch and uh that let you program
+[1190.96 --> 1200.08]  inside of emex but using ruby instead of elisp so i ported to that and my product i ported uh you
+[1200.08 --> 1205.40]  know my big code base to that uh named it zicky around that time uh my productivity shot up about
+[1205.40 --> 1211.12]  like 2x or 3x um i do like lisp but for this particular uh application ruby was just a great
+[1211.12 --> 1217.86]  fit a lot of text processing etc processing um yeah it's been it's been ruby for
+[1217.86 --> 1228.40]  maybe seven or no more like eight or nine years now i think so i i know one of the major drawbacks
+[1228.40 --> 1233.06]  that you mentioned for people getting started with it has been the setup slash install process
+[1233.06 --> 1241.40]  some of that that's the blame on on you know ruby as a as a choice i know uh recently we had on uh
+[1241.40 --> 1248.00]  jeremy signs uh who you know has a post where uh he was distributing command line tools in ruby and
+[1248.00 --> 1251.94]  and switched to go because of the you know the universal binary that you can just drop in
+[1251.94 --> 1258.28]  is is ruby some in the ecosystem some of the reason why the setup process has been not not
+[1258.28 --> 1265.60]  streamlined yet um i suppose uh ruby is probably i mean at this point the ruby landscape is pretty
+[1265.60 --> 1271.84]  good because ruby 2.0 is installed by default on the mac on linux people you just tell them to
+[1271.84 --> 1276.02]  install something and they say okay right on the mac if you like say install a different version of
+[1276.02 --> 1281.00]  ruby it's a big challenge but uh with mavericks ruby 2.0 is installed by default and i can just use
+[1281.00 --> 1287.08]  that it has emacs installed by default i can just use that you know behind the scenes um i should i
+[1287.08 --> 1292.52]  should mention that uh beginning a couple years ago i started supporting other languages so even though
+[1292.52 --> 1300.34]  ziki is implemented in ruby you can make ziki commands uh in python javascript coffee script
+[1300.34 --> 1308.70]  uh several different languages nice talk about these commands yeah um the the coolest part of of ziki is
+[1308.70 --> 1315.10]  that you can make your own commands uh ziki is is very wiki inspired which you know you're probably
+[1315.10 --> 1322.44]  not surprised because it's it's called ziki which is you know uh wiki with an x instead of a w um i first i
+[1322.44 --> 1328.96]  called i i was calling that uh expandable wiki is kind of what ziki was short for um the first i i
+[1328.96 --> 1334.56]  called it executable wiki now i'm leaning toward expand expanding wiki actually for x i k i so it's
+[1334.56 --> 1341.84]  very it's very wiki inspired you can uh type the name of a command and if it doesn't exist it'll pop
+[1341.84 --> 1348.08]  up and say hey this command doesn't exist do you want to create it using a text file or a ruby script
+[1348.08 --> 1353.44]  or a python script or a directory structure where the directories and files are your menu items
+[1353.44 --> 1362.46]  or a class where it'll just take the methods in your class and use them as the menu items and then
+[1362.46 --> 1370.38]  when you type the name of that command let's say uh like adam is a command we'll uh you know then
+[1370.38 --> 1375.58]  you'll be able to just type adam on any blank line and double click and it will run your file
+[1375.58 --> 1383.48]  and basically as time goes on i can i've i've kind of had more and more ideas about hey here's this
+[1383.48 --> 1389.90]  obvious way of making a command and they kind of get simpler and simpler and to me i think for uh
+[1389.90 --> 1396.96]  what ziki tried it does it tries to like make uh make it so that all the simplest possible ways of
+[1396.96 --> 1404.68]  making a little command with like a ui of like kind of menu items uh exists uh so ziki is like
+[1404.68 --> 1410.84]  you know one use case is better shell console the other use case is quickest way to make a ui on top
+[1410.84 --> 1416.56]  of code like a working ui so you can just take the command that you've written it's got its own little
+[1416.56 --> 1423.54]  ui and you can just pass it to a friend and they can they can run it exactly is there a distribution
+[1423.54 --> 1429.56]  mechanism or is it like you know email me this text file or you know whatever yeah there's there's
+[1429.56 --> 1436.94]  no uh central repository yet aside from um basically my git repository the uh you know you
+[1436.94 --> 1443.52]  know the homebrew model of if you have a uh you know a new package you just give it to to the main
+[1443.52 --> 1447.56]  guy and he'll check it in for you i mean that's what i've got now basically but down the road yeah
+[1447.56 --> 1452.64]  having something sort of like ruby gems or npm is probably going to be a fit at some point
+[1452.64 --> 1458.50]  so how many built-in commands are there just off the top of your head uh several hundred i'd say
+[1458.50 --> 1463.36]  roughly like 400 or something um probably more but some of them there are kind of silly and useless
+[1463.36 --> 1470.72]  but uh over over a couple hundred pretty pretty useful ones the uh i should say at kind of the intro to
+[1470.72 --> 1477.00]  the command uh discussion that the hello world for making a command is just make a text file say
+[1477.00 --> 1485.24]  named hello dot txp dot txt and you put uh world in the file and you just drag that into a special
+[1485.24 --> 1490.18]  directory and then that immediately is a command and that direct by default that directory is just
+[1490.18 --> 1495.16]  the commands directory in your home directory or any other directory that you designate as being in
+[1495.16 --> 1500.72]  your your is a key path and you said earlier ruby python several languages just put those languages in
+[1500.72 --> 1505.80]  there they run exactly just drop it in and then and yeah so where do you see the power something like
+[1505.80 --> 1511.44]  that coming up like give us some examples of to expand on you know we've got some people listen
+[1511.44 --> 1514.88]  to the show they're thinking okay well how can i be practical maybe they've already got some ideas but
+[1514.88 --> 1521.70]  can you give us some things and some ways that you've used that specific feature set yeah sure um since
+[1521.70 --> 1527.78]  it's so easy to make commands you know uh i've i've made a ton of them that like normally would would
+[1527.78 --> 1531.06]  have taken me like way longer i've written eclipse plugins and it's that's like you know
+[1531.06 --> 1539.60]  uh really big you know process to plan out what your ui is going to look like um and ziki you don't
+[1539.60 --> 1543.80]  even worry about the ui you just dump out some text and it displays it to the user and then you can
+[1543.80 --> 1549.52]  like fix it later make it look more organized later um a good example is just actually last night
+[1549.52 --> 1557.46]  my friend jeremy and i uh got together and paired to make a heroku menu and we did it in like a half an
+[1557.46 --> 1564.04]  hour it's just this flat file with kind of like if else if else and uh you type uh heroku on the
+[1564.04 --> 1570.68]  command line um with ziki shell which is xsh it's the the new kind of easy way of interacting with
+[1570.68 --> 1580.50]  ziki you can just type xsh space dash heroku and then it shows you uh heroku and then underneath that
+[1580.50 --> 1586.28]  it lists out all your apps and you can move the cursor down and drill into each app and then it has
+[1586.28 --> 1590.22]  items for each app of things that you want to do kind of like you know you would have in a gui
+[1590.22 --> 1596.14]  uh so there's a config option underneath your heroku app you can expand that it shows you the
+[1596.14 --> 1603.20]  config parameters and then you can edit and then uh save those back by control e the same way you
+[1603.20 --> 1610.78]  expand and collapse you can there's a log item you can expand the log and um type to filter down
+[1610.78 --> 1617.40]  um you can there's a browse option i actually just posted a video on the the kickstarter page and i
+[1617.40 --> 1623.38]  tweeted it uh to at ziki on twitter uh if you want to check it out was that update or something like
+[1623.38 --> 1631.74]  that so let's go let's get heroku back all right let's get heroku to back ziki yes my new strategy
+[1631.74 --> 1637.50]  that's a nice way to get their support right yeah i hope it works that's that's my plan for getting
+[1637.50 --> 1643.48]  that uh 50 of the kickstarter goal and put that link in the show notes then it's awesome yeah a
+[1643.48 --> 1647.42]  ton of people retweeted that this morning it was awesome people saying like hey heroku check this out
+[1647.42 --> 1651.84]  maybe you should back ziki yeah i'm gonna reach out to companies probably a bunch of different ones
+[1651.84 --> 1658.12]  and tell them like hey there's a ten thousand dollar reward that will get your logo on um
+[1658.12 --> 1666.98]  on ziki.org and xsh.org for a year and the eternal gratitude of the thousands of developers that
+[1666.98 --> 1672.34]  are excited about ziki let's pause the show for just a minute give a shout out to our sponsor
+[1672.34 --> 1678.12]  code ship code ship is a hosted continuous deployment service that just works you can
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+[1720.88 --> 1728.04]  i noticed in the screenshot at least of the opening video that you're talking about it's the
+[1728.04 --> 1735.88]  ziki shell command so xsh it looks like a space and then a dash heroku yes yes is that what you meant
+[1735.88 --> 1739.82]  is that what you said earlier did i miss that i think i said that okay because i thought you said
+[1739.82 --> 1746.12]  because i know you can you can kind of pre-pin the the ziki show in front of something like ls and
+[1746.12 --> 1751.80]  something and you can get that so this is a little different this is like a flag yeah if you pass a
+[1751.80 --> 1763.44]  flag xsh xsh space dash foo that's a ziki command if you do xsh space foo that's it'll treat that as a
+[1763.44 --> 1767.38]  shell command okay gotcha gotcha that's why i was trying to connect the dots out then yeah and they're
+[1767.38 --> 1773.04]  kind of similar you can you can make both of them have um interaction like that's that's a new ziki
+[1773.04 --> 1782.60]  feature if you type xsh space uh like who am i uh and then enter that'll open up who am i and it'll
+[1782.60 --> 1786.94]  run it it'll show you the output indented two spaces underneath and if you double click on the
+[1786.94 --> 1793.30]  or in a shell console it would be control e to expand the output uh then ziki will pop up and say
+[1793.30 --> 1799.16]  like hey it looks like you're trying to interact with the output of this command um there isn't a
+[1799.16 --> 1803.80]  wrapper for it yet do you want to create one and then you can it'll walk you through giving you a
+[1803.80 --> 1811.50]  little template of just making a script in any language you want and then basically you make that
+[1811.50 --> 1819.48]  output look at what was uh expanded and usually you make it like call you know shell out to the command
+[1819.48 --> 1825.28]  and do something that's relevant so you can make wrappers for commands so you can interact with uh you
+[1825.28 --> 1832.50]  know the outputs of you can just go in and expand the output of uh another good example is like uh ps if
+[1832.50 --> 1838.76]  you want to kill processes i've got a wrapper built in where you can type xsh space ps and then you can
+[1838.76 --> 1843.22]  go move your cursor down to one of the lines of the output and then uh control e to expand that
+[1843.22 --> 1848.12]  and it'll kill the process for you so interacting with the output of commands kind of like it's a gui
+[1848.12 --> 1853.28]  you know like you've got the you've got stuff on the screen sometimes you don't want to like type
+[1853.28 --> 1859.60]  another command underneath that you know has uh retyping some of the output like it's right there
+[1859.60 --> 1865.50]  why not just move your cursor down and say hey do the relevant thing to uh to this line of output
+[1865.50 --> 1872.22]  that's awesome i've spent years i probably had this ingrained in my in my fingers now how to type you
+[1872.22 --> 1878.02]  know ps aux pipe it into grep for a specific word and then grab the pid and kill the pid and it's like
+[1878.02 --> 1882.66]  a two-step process that i've just done so many times i'm sure there's ways even inside just bash to make
+[1882.66 --> 1888.66]  that you know more simple but being able to interact like a gui seems like it would really be beneficial
+[1888.66 --> 1894.16]  to me in that specific circumstance this might be about the same time the listeners are saying things
+[1894.16 --> 1901.58]  like is this real life my brain just exploded my mind is blown holy mother of god uh my life just
+[1901.58 --> 1906.96]  changed forever these are quotes on your kickstarter but these are things that uh i'm sure people are
+[1906.96 --> 1912.46]  saying because that's when i saw that i was like that's insane you know to be able to do that and
+[1912.46 --> 1917.50]  like you said jared it's it's kind of like ingrained in your brain to type certain commands and certain
+[1917.50 --> 1923.30]  flags to things and and grep for stuff when you don't really have to do that now it's it's you just
+[1923.30 --> 1929.98]  made the lives of so many so much easier yeah thanks let's not mention the uh hacker news comments that
+[1929.98 --> 1937.22]  are like you are an idiot i hate you that's just life right that's what happens yeah i wanted to
+[1937.22 --> 1941.40]  kind of talk about the you know what is you know arguably a marketing campaign that you've had going
+[1941.40 --> 1947.96]  because you've gotten sticky on tech crunch uh number one on hacker news i think linux journal it world
+[1947.96 --> 1954.62]  um these are major outlets and you know it's a it's a shell console right i mean i'm not trying to
+[1954.62 --> 1959.96]  belittle it but at the end of the day like tech crunch doesn't usually cover these things um
+[1959.96 --> 1965.04]  how did you get so much exposure for a project that you've had put so much time into kind of
+[1965.04 --> 1970.24]  behind the scenes and now all of a sudden explosion it's hard to say i think it's probably the videos
+[1970.24 --> 1976.20]  i put a ton of time into into the videos and just implementing a bunch of features like i think the
+[1976.20 --> 1980.16]  xsh thing recently kind of pushed me over the top and i was in the middle of the kickstarter i had all
+[1980.16 --> 1985.88]  my friends advising me like hey spend your time like you know sending emails to people and reaching
+[1985.88 --> 1988.54]  out to the media i was like no i'm just gonna hunker down i've got like you know
+[1988.54 --> 1994.84]  uh 20 days left but i'm gonna spend five days implementing this xsh thing because i think i
+[1994.84 --> 2000.04]  can make a video and people will just appreciate the like you know seeing that in action so just
+[2000.04 --> 2004.74]  doing videos of showing a lot of cool stuff happening and getting rid of the pauses
+[2004.74 --> 2012.10]  and getting to the point making yourself get to the point really quickly um yeah it's been it's been
+[2012.10 --> 2019.66]  really cool um the the linux.com article and the the tech coach article were like almost more positive
+[2019.66 --> 2024.60]  than i would have ever you know dared to dream about like they you know kind of said like uh
+[2024.60 --> 2029.72]  particularly uh carla schroeder who's like just an amazing person she she wrote the um
+[2030.40 --> 2037.94]  o'reilly's linux cookbook and the linux networking cookbook um she's like you know kind of one of my idols
+[2037.94 --> 2044.64]  now actually and uh having her say like ziki is the next big thing in free and open source software
+[2044.64 --> 2050.20]  and it's revolutionary and she doesn't use the word lightly that's just blows my mind and i'm so happy
+[2050.20 --> 2054.82]  with that i did like reach out to a few people but i guess it kind of snowballed on the downside of it
+[2054.82 --> 2061.96]  i've got like you know the big outlets like you said uh tech crunch in particular and giving me amazing
+[2061.96 --> 2067.42]  coverage and i'm still just about at half of my goal so it's sort of bittersweet
+[2067.42 --> 2073.60]  like where do i go from here you know this is something that tim caswell covered jared not not
+[2073.60 --> 2078.92]  long ago when we talked to him you know similar i mean he he'd done two rounds of you know fundraising
+[2078.92 --> 2085.42]  first one was a kickstarter second was a bounty source and uh you know he was building jsk at the
+[2085.42 --> 2092.46]  time to dovetail into t-edit and you know his story was a bit more successful and i think it was
+[2092.46 --> 2098.24]  only because mozilla stepped in and and and gave like 30 000 to kind of complete the goal or something
+[2098.24 --> 2104.16]  like that but you know we're seeing open source look for funding more often in your case it's a
+[2104.16 --> 2109.00]  little different craig because you've got a startup you're doing you took a pause from that to work on
+[2109.00 --> 2114.92]  something that's open source and then also kickstart it so it's it's slightly different but
+[2114.92 --> 2121.16]  yeah it's kind of a bummer that you're not getting i guess more funding traction on your kickstarter
+[2121.16 --> 2127.38]  yeah just just for the record my startup is not making any money so i'm not i'm not asking for uh
+[2127.38 --> 2133.98]  like a bonus here like if if this passes so how do you live then i'm on ziki if off uh savings okay
+[2133.98 --> 2138.48]  must be a lot of money consulting especially if you're in silicon valley right
+[2138.48 --> 2144.92]  yeah well i've got roommates here so we keep them keep the rent down um but yeah my new plan is to
+[2144.92 --> 2148.38]  reach out to companies i think it's i think it's actually a really big opportunity companies blow
+[2148.38 --> 2152.18]  you know just thousands on like sponsoring conferences they don't blow it it's it's you know
+[2152.18 --> 2156.36]  it's good right right it's good way to spend it but they you know they they spend money on um
+[2156.36 --> 2161.14]  recruiting and advertising and thousands of thousands and like ziki's sort of like gotten
+[2161.14 --> 2164.78]  all this publicity and it's just sitting out there waiting for someone to kind of like
+[2164.78 --> 2172.16]  a company to rescue it and you know uh they would have tons of of kind of like really cutting edge
+[2172.16 --> 2176.38]  tech people that are like really into just the very cutting edge those are like the fans of ziki
+[2176.38 --> 2182.48]  you know they would they would have those people saying like wow thank you uh you know engine yard
+[2182.48 --> 2188.82]  or thank you heroku or mozilla for for saving this unfortunately i can't have the uh donation any
+[2188.82 --> 2195.02]  bigger on kickstarter than 10 000 so i'm gonna need to like get maybe three or four companies to uh
+[2195.02 --> 2200.88]  send you know donate 10 000 which i think isn't much and you know in return i will i will make such a
+[2200.88 --> 2205.86]  big deal out of you know tweeting and emailing all the kickstarter backers saying like hey this company
+[2205.86 --> 2212.64]  saved ziki um you know on the screencast showing uh you can even buy the.com you can be like you know
+[2212.64 --> 2218.84]  such and such company save ziki.com and put up like a landing page and i will tweet that everywhere
+[2218.84 --> 2223.34]  yeah right that'd be crazy another thing i mean you've got your get up too we had chat on the show
+[2223.34 --> 2228.56]  not long ago talking about get up and uh yeah listen to it's kind of a bummer you got one dollar per week
+[2228.56 --> 2233.30]  coming to you listen everybody you got one dollar a week this guy's been building this open source
+[2233.30 --> 2240.54]  project for 10 years okay that's like a cent uh you know yes it's not even cool it's it's that's kind of
+[2240.54 --> 2243.98]  what i get for having a crappy install like if all these people excited about it and they try to
+[2243.98 --> 2249.00]  install it and they're like well you know five different errors so maybe if you fix the install
+[2249.00 --> 2254.16]  process you get more get up yeah hopefully it used to be higher it used to be more than a dollar
+[2254.16 --> 2258.08]  but i actually uh actually found out that most of that was coming from my mom
+[2258.08 --> 2268.42]  sad sad true story awesome so in um on the kickstarter page you talk about ziki's future i know
+[2268.42 --> 2273.44]  we kind of covered a bit of it but can you kind of paint the picture of of like what's the trajectory
+[2273.44 --> 2279.50]  where are you going with it and as best as you can fill in the gaps for us cool yeah the future of
+[2279.50 --> 2287.38]  ziki's it's morphing into a language um it's you know basically just a kind of wiki-ish freeform way
+[2287.38 --> 2294.74]  of like making a user interface so um you know if you take a step back and look at what user interface
+[2294.74 --> 2301.56]  is let's say you have like a foo menu in your you know your gui menu bar and you click it and then you
+[2301.56 --> 2307.80]  see bar what's the difference between that and seeing a foo icon on your desktop it pops up and
+[2307.80 --> 2314.70]  it shows you bar uh typing foo in your shell command and it shows you bar as the outputs you go to a url
+[2314.70 --> 2320.66]  you know foo.com and you see bar up here there's there's something fundamental there that can be
+[2320.66 --> 2325.68]  abstracted out and to me the simplest way of doing that and like you know a lot of other languages
+[2325.68 --> 2330.92]  like python and coffee script are using this two-space indenting uh it's just this sort of
+[2330.92 --> 2339.40]  natural thing so why not have just a dead simple uh kind of language slash syntax of representing you
+[2339.40 --> 2346.46]  know a ui where you just type a word in freeform text and then you double click on it or to do a
+[2346.46 --> 2350.84]  keyboard shortcut and then you see the output and of course from there if that's indented two spaces
+[2350.84 --> 2357.18]  underneath you could have multiple lines of output you know and uh you each one of those lines of
+[2357.18 --> 2361.62]  output themselves can be an option and you can expand those and you indent that two spaces more
+[2361.62 --> 2365.90]  underneath so four spaces and then at that point basically you've got like a tree that looks just
+[2365.90 --> 2373.84]  like any you know tree that you see in like a left nav of of you know a standard application
+[2373.84 --> 2381.80]  um but if you keep things simple and you keep things boiled down as a text format you can kind
+[2381.80 --> 2390.82]  of represent just about any user interface as just an indented textual tree and um you know i think
+[2390.82 --> 2396.66]  it's it is absolutely insane to me that there isn't a simple format where you can define an interface
+[2396.66 --> 2403.28]  it's like we'll make a little animals uh you know program and underneath it you've got like mammals and
+[2403.28 --> 2408.42]  lizards and underneath mammals you've got uh whatever dogs and cats so you want to make that
+[2408.42 --> 2416.68]  structure and deploy it as a you know navigable websites as a shell command as a mobile app where
+[2416.68 --> 2421.24]  you know you it's a mobile app called animals and then you double click it and it shows you two options
+[2421.24 --> 2426.70]  mammals and lizards or whatever i said uh and then you know we've got all these devices coming out like
+[2426.70 --> 2433.54]  all these i've got a pebble i love it there are like 10 smart watches coming out um and they all
+[2433.54 --> 2441.98]  have their own separate apis and i think the world is just totally ripe for having this dead simple uh
+[2441.98 --> 2447.18]  language where you can just type something out uh basically the navigation of of you know a program
+[2447.18 --> 2451.78]  and then deploy that to all these devices of course if you want to make a pebble app that does something
+[2451.78 --> 2457.94]  useful or iphone app you'll probably at some point have to call like a native method but i say make
+[2457.94 --> 2463.24]  the structure first make that deploy everywhere so you can navigate around um and then if you have to
+[2463.24 --> 2468.90]  do something whatever iphone specific then you know on top of this universal structure of your navigation
+[2468.90 --> 2476.42]  you can you know conditionally say like all right they clicked on um phone call if platform is iphone
+[2476.42 --> 2481.16]  then make phone call and you know if you want to make it look pretty then you can do all kinds of
+[2481.16 --> 2486.78]  stuff that you know we already have tools like this to like style uh the output to move things around
+[2486.78 --> 2491.60]  and not make it just a nested structure but out of the box with ziki you can just type um you know
+[2491.60 --> 2501.88]  something like uh animals and indent uh mammals and lizards underneath and then you can uh navigate that
+[2501.88 --> 2507.96]  and use it in the shell command you can go to the ziki web server that's built into ziki and you can
+[2507.96 --> 2514.16]  see a mobile interface so it'll show like in you know like a little mobile uh pill button style the
+[2514.16 --> 2521.04]  menu items so uh mammals and lizards and you can click on mammals and it will move over like you know
+[2521.04 --> 2527.34]  like uh slide over like a standard mobile interface and um from your text editor as well if you have a
+[2527.34 --> 2532.90]  ziki plugin for your text editor you can type uh animals and uh double click or control enter and
+[2532.90 --> 2540.12]  it will uh insert those underneath um and from there you can do all kinds of things where it's not just
+[2540.12 --> 2548.00]  this trivial example you can add headings and paragraphs uh like i said um uh ziki is very wiki
+[2548.00 --> 2553.12]  inspired their wiki syntaxes for tons of stuff like i said there's a wiki syntax for running a shell
+[2553.12 --> 2558.24]  command it's just dollar sign space and then the wiki syntax for heading is just a angle bracket
+[2558.24 --> 2564.32]  space um and then the heading syntax for a bullet point is just like a dash space you know with two
+[2564.32 --> 2568.90]  space indenting so you can type those things in the commands as well and then when you display that in
+[2568.90 --> 2574.54]  a mobile interface it can show you it can render the heading as a as a larger font size and you can
+[2574.54 --> 2580.16]  make you know actually an app that's like read only uh that actually has some like useful content you
+[2580.16 --> 2584.60]  can make that with just zero code and that could deploy to everywhere like a cool example i think is
+[2584.60 --> 2590.70]  like uh if you go to a conference they could say like hey got the conference schedule uh in this
+[2590.70 --> 2598.22]  global format you can deploy it on your watch you can deploy it on your your cell phone um on you know
+[2598.22 --> 2603.78]  and basically any device and then even though it's like static content it's very useful and you could uh
+[2603.78 --> 2609.22]  navigate around on your on your um pebble to see the schedule and then you know of course
+[2609.22 --> 2616.44]  from there having embedded code is gonna pop up as a you know as a need very quickly if you want to do
+[2616.44 --> 2624.16]  something you know more than than a static uh app so the way i do that is is uh underneath a menu item
+[2624.16 --> 2629.00]  you can uh there's a wiki syntax for code embedded underneath a menu item which is this exclamation mark
+[2629.00 --> 2636.98]  space and you can have multiple lines of a method and uh you know that can call your you know
+[2636.98 --> 2644.12]  your library that has your code very well structured out in a way you know you can have your menu items
+[2644.12 --> 2649.84]  delegate to that and i've got a bunch of other ways of of having dynamic code like you can have a class
+[2649.84 --> 2657.16]  that has a kind of a routing string that'll route back and forth between methods um and uh and different
+[2657.16 --> 2662.34]  paths and pass arguments and kind of sophisticated way but kind of the number one rule in ziki is like
+[2662.34 --> 2669.38]  by default the absolute simplest way of doing something uh should work like if if you can do
+[2669.38 --> 2672.20]  something with a class you should be able to do with a script as well when you want to
+[2672.20 --> 2677.50]  if you can do that you should be able to take a text file and uh make that be you know sort of a command
+[2677.50 --> 2678.14]  or a program
+[2678.14 --> 2686.66]  my mind my mind is blown i'm just thinking like you got language in there you've got a shell you know a
+[2686.66 --> 2691.52]  shell augmentation you know it's meant to be you know kind of going tandem with your shell already
+[2691.52 --> 2699.16]  um i mean it it seems personally to me it just seems like it's such a audacious kind of goal to
+[2699.16 --> 2704.98]  hit and the things you're talking about um i wasn't expecting to go there what about you jared
+[2704.98 --> 2711.32]  no not really i'm wondering now i mean 80 000 on this kickstarter what is that like a six month
+[2711.32 --> 2717.40]  runway for a year runway maybe you're in san francisco so three weeks what is that
+[2717.40 --> 2725.52]  um okay i mean i can make it stretch out for uh i can make it stretch out for a year um but uh yeah
+[2725.52 --> 2730.48]  if it does pass that's going to be you know like kind of a milestone where it means people kind of care
+[2730.48 --> 2736.22]  and uh what i'll what i'll spend my time doing um i mentioned uh early on uh when i was talking about
+[2736.22 --> 2741.48]  how much i like avdi i mentioned i'm a big pair programming fan and uh if it passes i'm just going
+[2741.48 --> 2747.14]  to reach out and pair with everyone on ziki i've i've done that i've done the you know avdi's uh
+[2747.14 --> 2752.06]  pair with me tag right and i've i've uh it's been a while because i've been like heads down coding by
+[2752.06 --> 2756.18]  myself which i kind of actually don't like to do but i've made myself do it to get like all these
+[2756.18 --> 2760.40]  features into ziki before that i was reaching out and pairing with tons of people like i paired with
+[2760.40 --> 2767.42]  a lady in london uh this really awesome dude i connected with in um argentina and then people
+[2767.42 --> 2771.50]  you know half of have been have been remote and half have been people in san francisco
+[2771.50 --> 2777.76]  i've met at coffee shops and uh done like maybe 25 pairing sessions with people and they've all just
+[2777.76 --> 2783.88]  been fantastic like even people that weren't super techie like they just had so many ideas of stuff i
+[2783.88 --> 2787.76]  didn't didn't think of and we sat down and like made a command and you know a half an hour that just
+[2787.76 --> 2793.76]  whatever shelled out to uh you know that scraped some website and listed like the world cup uh
+[2793.76 --> 2799.54]  you know results um or you know done something more sophisticated so that's what i want to do
+[2799.54 --> 2804.90]  with my time and i think if i have this you know year of time to just like reach out and pair with
+[2804.90 --> 2810.28]  everyone that that will be the beginning of something else like uh you know let it'll get
+[2810.28 --> 2815.16]  build up a team of people kind of taking it and running with it and making your own commands right
+[2815.16 --> 2820.22]  and well one thing we talked about recently with uh with chad whitaker was talk to your users
+[2820.22 --> 2825.98]  because when he came on the show it seemed like he had had this gap between what he thought getup was
+[2825.98 --> 2833.84]  and what he and i think what the users were using it for um where your plan with you know pairing that's
+[2833.84 --> 2837.90]  speaking to your users right i mean if you want to see the success of ziki you're going to have to
+[2837.90 --> 2844.20]  um get in the trenches and speak with people and talk to people and get feedback in real time and and
+[2844.20 --> 2849.68]  manage the community i i can't say that your job over the next year is gonna be easy so for those of you
+[2849.68 --> 2854.80]  out there listening to the show it's hopefully it's tuesday um of next week which you don't even
+[2854.80 --> 2858.78]  know what today is but it doesn't matter you got a few days left to back this thing on kickstarter
+[2858.78 --> 2864.92]  five days left yeah i mean give or take five days to back this project and show your support for this
+[2864.92 --> 2871.40]  if this is something that's uh you know of use to you let's see this thing get done um but yeah i
+[2871.40 --> 2876.74]  can't imagine that you've got the next year of your life that's going to be fun but not easy
+[2876.74 --> 2883.88]  yeah i mean pairing pairing for me makes it easy actually like if i if i can pair with people like
+[2883.88 --> 2887.26]  i know i'm not going to slack like obviously you can't slack off you don't want to slack right if
+[2887.26 --> 2892.04]  you're pairing with someone um so i yeah i'm actually looking forward to i think i actually
+[2892.04 --> 2897.04]  just got done with the painful part the last like six months of making myself sit by myself now i'm
+[2897.04 --> 2902.04]  like looking forward to kind of getting out there and having fun again actually but yeah if if anyone
+[2902.04 --> 2909.02]  thinks it's cool um check out the video go to xsh.org and you can see kind of like a better way
+[2909.02 --> 2914.90]  of running shell commands for many use cases not all right there in the top and especially people
+[2914.90 --> 2921.98]  that work for cool companies um that that you know back open source projects and sponsor conferences
+[2921.98 --> 2928.04]  i think ziki is like a really kind of actually kind of cheap way of uh getting a lot of publicity
+[2928.04 --> 2934.52]  uh i think if i can get a few companies to back it can do some amazing things and um yeah looking
+[2934.52 --> 2938.34]  forward to just reaching out and pairing with people again and having a having a great time
+[2938.34 --> 2942.24]  doing this stuff getting people's ideas you have to be one of his first pairs jared yeah totally
+[2942.24 --> 2946.88]  i'm ready you guys should both you guys should both pair with me i promise it'll be fun everyone's
+[2946.88 --> 2952.68]  had a great time doing it sign me up sign you up how do you get on the list wicked wicked uh
+[2952.68 --> 2960.64]  well with you guys i'm you're on the list now uh anyone else just tweet me uh at uh you know
+[2960.64 --> 2965.72]  ziki x i k i on twitter and just say like hey i want a pair and we'll we'll pick a time and do it
+[2965.72 --> 2971.16]  i'm not looking for like commitment we you know usually we'll just pick like an hour and if it goes
+[2971.16 --> 2974.98]  well you know if we both like it go for two hours and then no commitment after that i'm not looking for
+[2974.98 --> 2981.16]  people that like try to rope into contributing to the project on an ongoing basis and just like i i honestly
+[2981.16 --> 2986.24]  think just reaching out and pairing with people um i mean this is like avdi's idea and other people's
+[2986.24 --> 2993.20]  i'm late to the game in it but i think you know just connecting to like you're you're a dev maybe
+[2993.20 --> 2996.58]  you're a junior dev maybe you've been out there for a while you're like sitting around you're like okay
+[2996.58 --> 3000.84]  time for my next project or time to have some like fun and learn some new stuff what better way than
+[3000.84 --> 3007.60]  just to go tweet pair with me or just reach out and spend an hour with someone who who like knows a
+[3007.60 --> 3013.52]  project and just have this amazing high energy pairing session where you're just learning stuff
+[3013.52 --> 3019.58]  and firing up firing off questions um like to me that's such such a win-win for for most people there
+[3019.58 --> 3024.64]  are some people that just do really well coding by themselves uh and those people are super valuable
+[3024.64 --> 3031.54]  um and uh uh but you know probably about half the population is is very motivated by kind of being
+[3031.54 --> 3036.82]  social and for those people um i think this is going to be one of the biggest ways that people
+[3036.82 --> 3043.56]  just find new projects find new jobs um you know uh find team members there's gonna be like hey work
+[3043.56 --> 3049.22]  with me on this and they'll work with you know three people in in four or five hours and then the
+[3049.22 --> 3053.74]  people that hit it off they'll they'll work a little more and they'll be like hey we had a great time
+[3053.74 --> 3057.52]  working on you know this little open source thing i was working on why don't you consult with me on my
+[3057.52 --> 3062.74]  project and then why don't you you know work for my company or why don't i work for your company like i i um
+[3062.74 --> 3067.60]  i think the future of software dev is going to be just so open and embracive and like uh
+[3068.42 --> 3072.64]  um so social that uh i just yeah get excited when i think about it
+[3072.64 --> 3078.42]  let's pause the show for just a minute give a shout out to our sponsor top towel now we've been
+[3078.42 --> 3083.10]  working with top towel for about a year now almost a year now and we thought it would make sense to
+[3083.10 --> 3089.56]  circle back and talk to some of our listeners who have applied to top towel and have been accepted
+[3089.56 --> 3093.58]  because only about two to three percent of the engineers who apply make it past their strict
+[3093.58 --> 3099.44]  elite engineering process and daniel lauzon a long-time listener and fan of the changelog
+[3099.44 --> 3106.36]  is now living the dream he's an elite engineer at top towel and i say living the dream because he's
+[3106.36 --> 3112.40]  now able to have 100 control of the types of projects and technologies he's working on as well
+[3112.40 --> 3118.64]  as the rate he wants to charge daniel earns 100 of his income as a top towel engineer and he wanted me
+[3118.64 --> 3123.82]  to pass on his seal of approval of the top towel experience for those of you out there who are
+[3123.82 --> 3128.28]  freelancing or like to test out freelancing you've got to check out top towel if you think you have
+[3128.28 --> 3135.12]  what it takes head to top towel.com slash developers that's t-o-p-t-a-l.com slash developers to get
+[3135.12 --> 3142.76]  started tell them the changelog sent you speaking of speaking and even being social um do you have any
+[3142.76 --> 3149.22]  upcoming since you've done the the the conference track of talking at rubyconf strange loop and others
+[3149.22 --> 3154.66]  do you have any upcoming conferences you'll be at to speak about ziki in addition to like your next
+[3154.66 --> 3159.04]  year of coding and pairing i've kind of laid off on the conferences because they take a lot of time
+[3159.04 --> 3163.20]  yeah i'm glad i did i'm glad i did those conferences because like all the time i spent on the on the
+[3163.20 --> 3168.46]  presentations helped me with my like uh way of explaining ziki to people and i use a lot of those
+[3168.46 --> 3175.28]  thoughts uh in my kickstarter stuff um i'm gonna be on ruby rogues uh excited about that nice nice
+[3175.28 --> 3180.52]  uh and i think a couple weeks here uh and if the kickstarter passes yeah i'll probably try to do the
+[3180.52 --> 3185.24]  conference thing again and just really reach out there and start spreading the word i'll get xsh out
+[3185.24 --> 3193.74]  there like soon um because it's all of a sudden like really kind of kind of practical now and i'll get
+[3193.74 --> 3200.40]  a one-line installer so you can uh you know hopefully like uh apt get install xsh and then
+[3200.40 --> 3208.06]  right away you can type you know xsh space dash html and then you can just type some html uh you know
+[3208.06 --> 3213.04]  modify the sample it gives you and then um control enter and then bam it shows on the browser and then
+[3213.04 --> 3221.84]  you can type uh xsh space dash css uh to try out some css you can do bootstrap um and then just in a
+[3221.84 --> 3226.64]  couple keystrokes you know have a bootstrap layout that you can just uh type i've got like a wiki
+[3226.64 --> 3231.84]  syntax and you can drill into some examples you can get a working bootstrap layout uh node rails
+[3231.84 --> 3237.10]  you'll be able to type xsh space dash node and then just expand out controller and then modify the
+[3237.10 --> 3241.34]  controller and bam you've got like a you know you're trying out things in node controller um
+[3241.34 --> 3247.12]  yeah uh i think that'll that'll uh the xsh stuff i think will demo particularly well at conferences
+[3247.12 --> 3252.48]  uh so i'll definitely want to do some of those again like i've gotten really good feedback uh at
+[3252.48 --> 3258.50]  conferences but people have have said like hey seems really cool i don't know how it would fit
+[3258.50 --> 3264.72]  into my workflow like i'm not going to switch to a new text editor um in my text editor now i kind of
+[3264.72 --> 3272.82]  like it how it is um so people haven't uh my cat doesn't like it the cat's a vim user and won't
+[3272.82 --> 3281.46]  talk to me um but uh yeah now that now that i've got xsh out there that answer to that objection is
+[3281.46 --> 3287.64]  easy it's like oh here's how you incorporate it next time instead of doing uh you know uh ps and
+[3287.64 --> 3292.82]  then uh kill you just do xsh space ps or next time you're doing a git and you forget a command you just
+[3292.82 --> 3300.68]  do a xsh space git and then you can um you can drill into the output you can also see code this is a
+[3300.68 --> 3304.62]  couple kind of cool features these are a couple kind of cool features i haven't mentioned yet um
+[3304.62 --> 3311.30]  slow down i'm starting to stutter getting too excited there are a couple of cool features with
+[3311.30 --> 3316.54]  shell commands uh where you can look at the history of a command and narrow down and rerun it
+[3316.54 --> 3325.20]  you can also mark you know commands with particular options as favorites and then you can um type xsh space
+[3325.20 --> 3330.86]  dash f git for example and it will show you your favorites and then you can pick one and run it
+[3330.86 --> 3336.82]  again nice um and you can also there's documentation kind of that comes along with it where you'll see
+[3336.82 --> 3344.60]  like the examples for common ways of using the git command like uh you know you'll you can drill into
+[3344.60 --> 3351.88]  examples i think xsh space uh dash e uh space git that'll show the examples that's probably how it'll
+[3351.88 --> 3357.88]  it'll end up being and then you can drill into like undo just move your cursor down and expand undo
+[3357.88 --> 3362.54]  and it'll say like you know undoing the changes to one file and it'll show you that it's that you
+[3362.54 --> 3367.06]  know that's the git checkout command and you can just actually run it right from there and then you
+[3367.06 --> 3372.74]  know undoing your repository git reset and then undoing it and wiping out your changes git reset dash
+[3372.74 --> 3379.36]  so now you can actually kind of uh drill in to those examples and then run them uh right from where
+[3379.36 --> 3383.72]  you're you're looking at the the documentation that sounds really powerful for beginners who are
+[3383.72 --> 3389.52]  trying to you know learn a specific tool also for you know even power users who you know i've been
+[3389.52 --> 3395.02]  using the git command for years but there's you know there's things in there that i have never come
+[3395.02 --> 3401.00]  across and you can kind of this it uh amps up the discoverability yeah when you're navigating a tree
+[3401.00 --> 3406.34]  structure than if you're trying to you know google around for how do i do this and get yeah totally and
+[3406.34 --> 3410.40]  and you know to all you command line people that say the command line works great i totally agree i
+[3410.40 --> 3416.72]  love the command i'm not looking to replace man etc uh like basically i'm building on top and adding
+[3416.72 --> 3422.28]  a few new features that work in some use cases uh i'm not saying they're better across the board but
+[3422.28 --> 3427.10]  but sometimes you know having having more options is is kind of kind of awesome i'm really looking
+[3427.10 --> 3433.28]  forward to um getting people to contribute to these like uh you know i've added a few of my favorite
+[3433.28 --> 3437.82]  get examples on my own but once i get this out there and get people using it and adding their own
+[3437.82 --> 3443.78]  uh you know menu items underneath the get examples i think it's gonna turn into something really
+[3443.78 --> 3448.98]  awesome i think one feature too that you may not have really touched on that i think is kind of like
+[3448.98 --> 3454.14]  a little hidden gem is like you can even browse databases you got support from my sequel rethink db
+[3454.14 --> 3458.48]  because you're a fan of it couch db and and all the other you know awesome dbs out there but
+[3458.48 --> 3463.68]  being able to even you know dive into a database and browse around like that that's even kind of
+[3463.68 --> 3468.60]  neat as well and i'm assuming just because of what you've said already that you can even run commands
+[3468.60 --> 3476.32]  and interact with the output and save back to the database yeah that'll now be uh xsh dash tables
+[3476.32 --> 3481.48]  that will list out your database tables and you can type to narrow down or move your cursor down and
+[3481.48 --> 3486.82]  expand a table and it will show you the records and then you can type to filter those down and then you can
+[3486.82 --> 3494.72]  just edit in line um and then ctrl e to save that back to the database yeah that's uh something that
+[3494.72 --> 3501.42]  in my uh presentations i always get a a good gasp from the audience at that point i was gonna say i was
+[3501.42 --> 3505.46]  like that's that's where i fell over i almost fell out of my seat when i read that part of the
+[3505.46 --> 3511.14]  the dom editing also people really like when i show uh expanding out the dom and then updating the dom
+[3511.14 --> 3516.96]  and having it reflect in the browser right away yeah that's that's intense right there jared is
+[3516.96 --> 3520.86]  anything else you want to cover before we go into our traditional super awesome questions
+[3520.86 --> 3526.02]  no just to say you know for anybody out there who wants to see this in action looks like zicky.org
+[3526.02 --> 3532.32]  slash screencasts has a bunch of stuff up there of course the kickstarter page also has a handful of
+[3532.32 --> 3538.62]  things yeah the slash screencast is a little out of the day i need to update that uh yeah xsh.org has a
+[3538.62 --> 3543.30]  really cool it's the newest uh screencast at the top and then that has a link to the kickstarter
+[3543.30 --> 3548.24]  which has the newest videos cool well even so i mean you know even if they're a little data you
+[3548.24 --> 3552.04]  can go there and get excited about where it's been and you can only imagine where it's going so
+[3552.04 --> 3555.60]  yeah yeah don't don't feel like you can't go and watch them because jared you were probably impressed
+[3555.60 --> 3562.08]  right yeah i was watching uh can your shell console do this which is that first one about a three minute
+[3562.08 --> 3566.44]  video where you kind of build like what if it could do this what if it could do this and then yes i like
+[3566.44 --> 3572.74]  that one as well it can that was very uh were you guys like were you guys super annoyed by my
+[3572.74 --> 3578.56]  repeating the what if you could no not exactly i mean i got so hammered for that i didn't think so
+[3578.56 --> 3582.12]  i mean i felt like you were trying to make a point when you make a point you repeat yourself
+[3582.12 --> 3586.78]  i've deleted like 10 youtube comments that were just what if you could what if you could what if
+[3586.78 --> 3591.14]  you could what if you could what if you could what if you could not place a comment here and go away
+[3591.14 --> 3597.54]  that's i deserve it i mean i i hammer other people's projects to haters what happens when
+[3597.54 --> 3604.54]  you throw yourself so 80 grand you're looking for 80 grand on this kickstarter um yes could be as much
+[3604.54 --> 3608.76]  as five days left when you're listening to this you're about halfway right now at the date of
+[3608.76 --> 3615.78]  recording um and today's date is friday july 11th uh just so everybody's aware the show should be out
+[3615.78 --> 3622.58]  um july 15th so if you're listening to it july 15th or after you've literally got days possibly
+[3622.58 --> 3629.74]  even seconds to go and back this thing so uh you can you want to do a quick rundown maybe of a couple
+[3629.74 --> 3634.62]  of your favorite not all of them but a couple of your favorite um rewards is that what they're called
+[3634.62 --> 3638.18]  yeah rewards and kickstarter like some of your favorites maybe just kind of
+[3638.18 --> 3644.38]  glaze over some of the cool ones that uh that stand out yeah yeah um for 35 bucks you can get a
+[3644.38 --> 3650.40]  ziki t-shirt it's a american apparel 50 50 really nice t-shirt um i did a went back and forth with
+[3650.40 --> 3655.96]  the design uh like five times to get it right uh it's really nice digital print with a gradient on it
+[3655.96 --> 3664.82]  um and then you can do i think for what do i have it for uh 300 i think um you can do a pairing session
+[3664.82 --> 3670.40]  with me um let me bring up the page so i can tell you the actual number i've got a couple different
+[3670.40 --> 3674.28]  ones with pairing session that's one of my favorites because i love to pair people pair
+[3674.28 --> 3683.44]  with people um you can pair with me on a menu for your project um and i'll include it in the ziki
+[3683.44 --> 3691.14]  distribution um i think that's the uh currently the uh uh early early bird ones are sold on that i
+[3691.14 --> 3697.16]  think so now it's um 300 um which i think i think is a good way to fund an open source project if
+[3697.16 --> 3701.96]  you're transparent about including people's stuff and it doesn't get in your way and users can override it
+[3701.96 --> 3707.02]  uh that's kind of one of my plans like uh after the kickstarter i'll say for a for a company that's
+[3707.02 --> 3713.36]  got like a you know commercial project and they want their command included uh just for you know
+[3713.36 --> 3717.46]  for a few hundred i'll just stick it there by default it won't get in anyone's way if they don't want to
+[3717.46 --> 3722.38]  use it it's not going to pop up at them and say like hey this this needs to be used it'll be just
+[3722.38 --> 3727.50]  if they type that you know if you type heroku or whatever it'll be there for you to use and the
+[3727.50 --> 3734.40]  commands are so they're so tiny there's a few few k or a few not even a k a lot of times of text that
+[3734.40 --> 3740.04]  they don't bloat anything um there's a reward there where you can pair with me and i'll make a video
+[3740.04 --> 3746.10]  of the um of the you know little command that we make for your tool your project and then i'll publicize
+[3746.10 --> 3756.06]  that uh my absolute favorite one is the ten thousand dollar uh category which why is that
+[3756.06 --> 3760.98]  because it's ten thousand dollars and right now there are zero okay so right now there's zero we
+[3760.98 --> 3767.82]  want at least one maybe two maybe five five would if i would make this a kickstarter pass that would
+[3767.82 --> 3771.98]  be amazing there you go i think i think with three we could still get it to pass so with that i'll put
+[3771.98 --> 3778.50]  your logo on xsh.org and ziki.org we can make it kind of big if you want because like it's totally
+[3778.50 --> 3786.46]  worth that and i'll spread the word everywhere that your company rescued ziki and um i'll tweet i'll
+[3786.46 --> 3794.30]  send uh emails to my what is it 1300 backers i've got a couple thousand twitter followers i'll tweet it
+[3794.30 --> 3799.90]  a lot um because honestly it's like it's in my interest to spread that out right now as much as i can
+[3799.90 --> 3805.46]  because that will encourage other companies to back it a lot i'll tweet it a lot i got a question
+[3805.46 --> 3812.60]  for you um and i don't want to be a debbie downer by any means but i'm thinking maybe the audience
+[3812.60 --> 3819.46]  might be thinking what will craig do if it doesn't if it doesn't succeed if it doesn't if this kickstarter
+[3819.46 --> 3829.34]  fails and doesn't fully fund yeah uh thanks debbie downer just kidding um no i'll just kind of
+[3829.34 --> 3835.56]  regroup at that point i'm gonna keep working on it regardless plan b then i kind of thought about
+[3835.56 --> 3840.88]  maybe doing a smaller campaign for just xsh but god the thought of like redoing all this again and
+[3840.88 --> 3845.60]  trying to be like a cheerleader again and saying like hey everyone remember me well now i'm like
+[3845.60 --> 3849.98]  you've got this big thing again i'm harassing you about like i'll probably take a break if i do it
+[3849.98 --> 3856.84]  maybe a smaller one for just xsh but uh i'll keep working on it for myself regardless because i've
+[3856.84 --> 3861.16]  used it for myself i can't stop working on it like i've got all these these things that i i
+[3861.16 --> 3866.70]  see as like obvious next steps like using uh the tree structure as actually a data structure it's
+[3866.70 --> 3875.32]  sort of like a combination of a hash and an array um and like all kinds of stuff that i and make i
+[3875.32 --> 3880.12]  want to make a little generator where you can take these two space indenting structures and generate a
+[3880.12 --> 3884.36]  pebble app and that's like that's easy to do i think and like generate the code for pebble
+[3884.36 --> 3889.58]  app during the code for iphone so i'll keep doing it for myself i just won't jump in and do sublime
+[3889.58 --> 3894.10]  support and vim support right away because i'll have to probably actually get back to another project
+[3894.10 --> 3902.18]  to make money other other ways basically so this is literally saving zicky for the yeah for the for
+[3902.18 --> 3907.58]  the time for the time i mean it'll still live on but the trajectory the feature set the direction
+[3907.58 --> 3913.88]  the future that you painted out during this show all of that just in case no one's listening all of
+[3913.88 --> 3921.22]  that is not exactly riding on this but it's certainly going to lift it up it will give zicky a very strong
+[3921.22 --> 3928.86]  chance of playing a big role in the uh immediate future of of tech and bringing this you know what i
+[3928.86 --> 3936.06]  think is just something that the world absolutely needs a dead simple structure for you know defining a
+[3936.06 --> 3941.44]  uh working ui and you know we can spread that to the world it's open you can incorporate that into
+[3941.44 --> 3948.42]  your projects um you know it's it's it's it's very open like i feel like if we want something like
+[3948.42 --> 3953.00]  super super open that's going to like take all these devices that are out there now that have these user
+[3953.00 --> 3958.32]  interfaces and make an you know an open language and structure i feel like we as developers have to do
+[3958.32 --> 3965.72]  it ourselves like companies are have vested interests in making their own proprietary languages like if we want
+[3965.72 --> 3970.74]  another like html which is revolutionized the web and like before that it was like aol they controlled
+[3970.74 --> 3977.22]  every you know the america online which was great and you know they they couldn't like make a standard
+[3977.22 --> 3980.94]  themselves they just had to make something that worked for them but you know it was it was so far
+[3980.94 --> 3987.42]  from being open and the rev the html basically just made everything possible like mobile wouldn't be
+[3987.42 --> 3992.72]  mobile without without html um you know it just revolutionized everything and made everyone
+[3992.72 --> 3998.56]  you know able to be a web developer and just made everything spread we we need html for like a
+[3998.56 --> 4003.74]  general purpose ui like we need that and it's got to be like as simple as possible like trends right
+[4003.74 --> 4006.62]  now are moving that direction anyway if you like like new languages like coffee script instead of
+[4006.62 --> 4011.60]  they're like moving the direction of just like you know you do like uh here's my class and then
+[4011.60 --> 4015.90]  underneath that i've got like you know a colon and underneath that i've got b colon so it's it's
+[4015.90 --> 4020.54]  happening now you know like it like the world is moving that direction let's make it you know let's make it
+[4020.54 --> 4026.22]  open and as flexible as possible and take control of it ourselves you know cool well let's uh let's
+[4026.22 --> 4030.96]  let's uh what's the call to arms i guess besides back it which we've which pretty much punched that
+[4030.96 --> 4036.32]  in the face um what is the call to arms for the community how how can people step in how can people
+[4036.32 --> 4041.64]  help out besides i guess or i guess you can say backing if you want but that's that's i think it's
+[4041.64 --> 4048.46]  pretty obvious uh yeah how about reach out to companies and get them to back it like i actually had to
+[4048.46 --> 4055.22]  late last night i i tweeted this uh twilio thing saying hey uh everyone help me um get twilio to
+[4055.22 --> 4061.22]  back this like after this i'm going to make another uh video for uh probably mozilla and a couple other
+[4061.22 --> 4067.60]  companies um and the first ones that do it are going to get going to get like the most most press
+[4067.60 --> 4074.10]  so if you work for a cool company that donates to open source and and uh sponsors you know uh
+[4074.10 --> 4078.80]  cool conferences like seriously walk to the office and say like hey check this out
+[4078.80 --> 4086.62]  you will get a bunch of press if you if you support it okay um yeah everybody uh tell your friends
+[4086.62 --> 4093.22]  tell your co-workers tell your boss tell your leaders to support this if they can um you were
+[4093.22 --> 4098.26]  you were my best friend right now and and uh let's talk about programming hero like uh we've talked a bit
+[4098.26 --> 4102.48]  about your history a bit but so do you have any programming heroes you want to plug here on the
+[4102.48 --> 4110.86]  show today yeah uh ward cunningham is my my programming hero only one uh i would say dhh also
+[4110.86 --> 4116.68]  with with rails but but ward ward cunningham is definitely uh at the top like i he's he's the
+[4116.68 --> 4122.90]  guy that wrote the original wiki um i remember working for a bank on a pretty cool team but you know
+[4122.90 --> 4127.82]  if you work for a bank it's it's about money it's not about programming it's about not crashing the the
+[4127.82 --> 4133.26]  prod server and losing a million dollars you know in a half an hour so i was kind of like disgruntled
+[4133.26 --> 4139.00]  by all the structure that everyone had to go through and uh this guy joined our team and he installed a
+[4139.00 --> 4143.06]  wiki and i remember looking at this you know seeing a wiki for the first time and thinking like
+[4143.06 --> 4150.36]  holy crap that's you know you can do that like this breaks every rule that i've learned in school
+[4150.36 --> 4156.26]  and with like structure like you know uh you just make you know i think i think every programmer
+[4156.26 --> 4161.46]  should make a wiki like new programmers just an exercise you just like make one database table
+[4161.46 --> 4166.74]  with a column of like name and then a column of contents and then you give people this big text
+[4166.74 --> 4171.10]  area we can just type in any text and then you like search and replace these little like syntaxes
+[4171.10 --> 4180.34]  like equals into you know headings html headings and with this like you know two fields and um
+[4180.34 --> 4183.84]  searching and replacing and then of course you make links too you make a structure for links
+[4183.84 --> 4192.36]  you've got this incredible uh you know versatile system that you know turned into wikipedia basically
+[4192.36 --> 4200.26]  and you know defeated uh and carta and all these like highly structured uh gooey gooey tools so that
+[4200.26 --> 4207.22]  just that just was like a awakening for me like i kind of i i felt like before that point i almost had
+[4207.22 --> 4212.14]  the idea of doing something kind of like like a wiki but never even dared to think about or suggest
+[4212.14 --> 4218.26]  it because i knew i'd be laughed at like oh here's here's this guy's uh design for the system he's
+[4218.26 --> 4222.14]  gonna have a big text field and dump everything else into it and search and replace like you know
+[4222.14 --> 4231.04]  let's uh let's not hire this guy um but uh yeah ward cunningham is is a hero because he does stuff like
+[4231.04 --> 4238.22]  that and he also has like these huge like oh oh design pattern chops like the first wiki was for
+[4238.22 --> 4245.00]  augmenting the portland uh pattern repository which which is like a bunch of strongly typed oh oh design
+[4245.00 --> 4253.10]  patterns patterns so he's this guy that can use this you know high abstraction and complexity where it's
+[4253.10 --> 4258.86]  uh where it fits and does a good job and where he sees an opportunity just to like do this really
+[4258.86 --> 4267.54]  flexible thing uh he'll just do it um and uh i i've i've sort of uh tried to adopt that seems like
+[4267.54 --> 4272.96]  he's like uh on the patterns and extreme paragraph sorry patterns and extreme pair programming or
+[4272.96 --> 4276.92]  extreme programming i want to put pair programming in there because you said a couple times then well
+[4276.92 --> 4281.98]  he actually he was like one of the guys he and uh like was one of the guys that invented pair programming
+[4281.98 --> 4289.40]  uh which i also like i'm obsessed with right right that's that's um we'll link him in the show notes
+[4289.40 --> 4294.28]  as well ward thank you for your awesome service to the software development community that's yeah check
+[4294.28 --> 4299.94]  out uh check out uh his uh his projects he's working on some really really awesome stuff i've actually
+[4299.94 --> 4304.46]  had the the opportunity to uh skype with him for quite a while and he's he's brainstormed with me
+[4304.46 --> 4310.84]  and ziki um smallest federated wiki is what he's kind of designing it's his project it's sort of the
+[4310.84 --> 4315.36]  next version of a wiki where it's that's federated out you can have your own and share it's it's kind
+[4315.36 --> 4321.60]  of mind-blowing uh check it out well um craig i want to say thanks man for coming on the show today
+[4321.60 --> 4325.82]  it's certainly been great to kind of get to know you and what you're doing with ziki and the future
+[4325.82 --> 4330.66]  of it um you know all i can say is you know we hope that when people listen to this they get excited
+[4330.66 --> 4335.88]  about it and they go and back your kickstarter and they help save ziki from a different future
+[4335.88 --> 4340.06]  um and and thanks for coming on the show let's let's uh everyone say goodbye
+[4340.06 --> 4342.64]  yeah thanks so much guys i had a great time
+[4342.64 --> 4356.82]  you