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The .NET Language Strategy - benaadams
https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/dotnet/2017/02/01/the-net-language-strategy/
======
Analemma_
I also want to commend Microsoft for continuing to support VB and not
succumbing to the whims of sneering hipster programmers who consider it
beneath contempt (see the second comment on that article for a good example,
with a classy response from MS). VB is a thing that a lot of people rely on,
and some even like, and doesn't deserve to be kicked to the curb.
~~~
mpeg
I wrote my first non-toy lines of code in VB6, with a (pirate) copy of the IDE
that I had to ask for as a request to a dude that sold cds in a public park.
At that time, I only had a C/C++ compiler that I didn't know how to use
(because I had no internet and no standard library / STL docs). The MSDN
library that was preloaded in the cd was an eye opener, and the visual
components made it easy to experiment.
I would probably work in a restaurant today, if it wasn't for that cd.
~~~
discreteevent
I worked in a start-up straight out of college where I had done C/C++. We
decided to try out this Visual Basic to see if we could get things done more
quickly. VB 3.0. I was blown away by how quickly you could do things even
though the language made it hard to organise any kind of structure when things
got bigger. We did a lot of work in it and I assumed something like it was the
future of programming.
Then the start up went bust and I was back to C++ before any newer version of
VB came out. They really got reusable components right. I've never had an
experience since where there is such a huge jump in productivity with a new
technology.
~~~
fiddlerwoaroof
I'm not really sure of the timeline, but I think Delphi pioneered the
"reusable components" paradigm and VB was Microsoft's entry into the market.
~~~
ryanhuff
Delphi came after VB3. VB3 had "custom controls" called VBX (Visual Basic
Extensions), which were the reusable components. It was the precursor to OCX
and ActiveX controls.
~~~
probablybroken
Yes - I migrated from VB -> Delphi - one of the big advantages at the time was
you could compile a small executable that didn't require you to distribute
several additional disks of vb runtime DLLs with your software.
------
mkozlows
So the big change there is to VB, right -- instead of being a language co-
equal to C#, they're refocusing it to be beginner-focused, and are explicitly
saying it won't have the same capabilities as C#.
I think that makes a lot of sense -- it was always weird to have two near-
identical languages to choose from -- but at the same time, I wonder if VB.NET
isn't already too complex to be an accessible language for beginner-
programmers in the way that PHP or VB6 were.
~~~
hacker_9
I learned on VB.Net maybe ~15 years ago now, and back then all the english
like 'end sub' and 'end if' really really helped me understand the code.
Honestly languages that used brackets looked like voodoo to me at the time. Of
course later when I understood that brackets were faster to write and conveyed
the structure just the same, I converted and became a sneering hipster.
~~~
cm2187
I don't think anyone has ever typed _End If_ in visual studio. The VB IDE
always had very proactive statement completion, that the C# IDE only recently
matched. All you end up typing is "for i=1 to 10", press enter, not worrying
about the casing and the IDE does the rest. To me the quality of the IDE makes
50% of the quality of a language and the VB.net IDE was superb.
~~~
Jaruzel
tsk! :)
>> For I _as Int32_ = 1 to 10
I may be a VB.NET stalwart, but I have evolved to ensure my code is clean and
properly declared, and I wish that all my VB.NET colleagues had done the same,
then maybe it still wouldn't be seen as C# ugly step-sibling.
Why don't I switch to C# ?
1) I don't code professionally these days, only as a hobby.
2) I can't see the point of having to put semi-colons at the end of lines,
when you immediately follow them with CRLF anyway.
3) Curly brackets are too easy to miss in the middle of code for these old
eyes.
Right now, there's almost no app that's written in C# that can't also be
written in VB.NET.
~~~
cm2187
I agree with your points except for
For i as Int32 = 1 to 10
There is nothing loose or unambiguous about type inference
Dim i = 10
is absolutely unambiguous, strongly typed and elegant. The For i = 1 to 10 is
just doing the same in a loop.
~~~
Jaruzel
I think I had gotten stung previously with VB6s loose typing (everything as a
generic object unless declared otherwise), so when I switched to VB.NET I made
a point of declaring everything (and still do).
~~~
cm2187
yeah it took me a while to get rid of bad VB6 habits too. Hungarian notation,
specifying byval in front of every arguments in a function, not relying on
type inference, etc.
------
nathanaldensr
Good on Microsoft for writing about their strategy in such a clear, concise
way. More of this style of writing, please, Microsoft! C# is, indeed, a real
treat. I've been in love with it since 2001 and that shows no signs of
changing any time soon.
~~~
hacker_9
Honestly I wish decent transpilers existed in life so I need never use another
language.
------
arthurjj
It's nice to see their strong continuing support for F#. I'm no longer in the
.NET ecosystem but when I was learning F# and using it day to day was some of
the most enjoyable paid programming I've done
~~~
MichaelGG
I wouldn't call it strong continuing support. F#'s been a second class citizen
both in resources given and marketing support. Community effort is great, but
as long as MS pushes C# as the flagship language instead of giving it the
equal-or-lesser footing it deserves, F# can't truly pull ahead.
It's good to see C# catching up with the past decades of language research.
Maybe it's MS's DNA - they're still heavily pushing C++.
Tooling is the only real reason to ever use C# over F# - C# just doesn't do
much (anything?) better. That, and legacy/enterprisey dev.
Heck, C# 7's tuple support is exactly what F# used to do, but then capitulated
to MS's idea of making System.Tuple, a reference (heap allocated) type. Now in
C# 7 since they finally got around to being a bit serious, they implement a
new value-type tuple.
I guess we should be happy for any F# support we get. And indeed, tooling for
functional languages is poor in general, so F# certainly leads...
~~~
MadsTorgersen
You're seeing us strike a balance here. As I point out in the post, there are
millions of C# developers, and tens of thousands of F# developers.
However, we think F# has awesome growth potential, and is great for .NET in
general. So while we can't defend spending the same resources on it as we do
on C#, we want to do what it takes to nurture it and keep it healthy and
growing.
Being on the inside at Microsoft over the past years, it's been great to see
more and more of the organization think of F# as part of the family.
~~~
oblio
In my opinion Microsoft should focus more on base tools for F#, such as
Roslyn, integration with dotnet core, etc.
Integration with Visual Studio is nice, but if the language is to be adopted
in hacker circles, without major Microsoft investment, it needs to provide
very solid and flexible tools on top of which the community can build awesome
things.
Example of small things Microsoft can help with: as far as I can see Nuclide
doesn't work with dotnet core (only Mono). Throwing 1-2 devs that way would
pay good dividends, in my opinion.
~~~
wluu
> Example of small things Microsoft can help with: as far as I can see Nuclide
> doesn't work with dotnet core (only Mono). Throwing 1-2 devs that way would
> pay good dividends, in my opinion.
I don't know anything about Nuclide, but if they want to work with dotnet
core, they should look into working with omnisharp-roslyn[0]. VS Code[1] and
Atom[2] both have extensions that work with it.
> In my opinion Microsoft should focus more on base tools for F#, such as
> Roslyn, integration with dotnet core, etc.
I think there's already work underway for F# support for dotnet core[6].
As far as F# support for editors go, have a look at ionide[4]. They only have
extensions for VS Code and Atom at the moment.
> Integration with Visual Studio is nice, but if the language is to be adopted
> in hacker circles, without major Microsoft investment, it needs to provide
> very solid and flexible tools on top of which the community can build
> awesome things.
Have you seen omnisharp[5]? If so, what's missing from that?
[0] [https://github.com/OmniSharp/omnisharp-
roslyn](https://github.com/OmniSharp/omnisharp-roslyn)
[1] [https://github.com/OmniSharp/omnisharp-
vscode](https://github.com/OmniSharp/omnisharp-vscode)
[2] [https://github.com/OmniSharp/omnisharp-
atom](https://github.com/OmniSharp/omnisharp-atom)
[3] [https://github.com/Microsoft/language-server-
protocol](https://github.com/Microsoft/language-server-protocol)
[4] [http://ionide.io/](http://ionide.io/)
[5] [http://www.omnisharp.net/](http://www.omnisharp.net/)
[6] [https://github.com/dotnet/netcorecli-
fsc](https://github.com/dotnet/netcorecli-fsc)
~~~
enricosada
About F# and .NET Core, you can read more info (usage/bugs/workaround) in the
wiki [https://github.com/dotnet/netcorecli-
fsc/wiki/](https://github.com/dotnet/netcorecli-fsc/wiki/)
The only ide who support f# and .net core is VSCode (with Ionide extension who
add f# support)
see
\- [https://github.com/dotnet/netcorecli-fsc/wiki/.NET-Core-
SDK-...](https://github.com/dotnet/netcorecli-fsc/wiki/.NET-Core-SDK-preview2)
for LTS of .net core 1.0 (project.json)
\- [https://github.com/dotnet/netcorecli-fsc/wiki/.NET-Core-
SDK-...](https://github.com/dotnet/netcorecli-fsc/wiki/.NET-Core-SDK-preview4)
for msbuild based (latest bits)
------
ktRolster
It's worth mentioning that another reason C# is popular is because of the
strong commitment to backwards compatibility. I can write something in C# and
be fairly confident that it will still work a decade from now. That kind of
reliability makes me willing to invest significant capital into C#
development.
~~~
melling
How much cruft is in the language because of backwards compatibility?
Java couldn't do generics right, for example, because they didn't want to
break compatibility. C# seems to be adding a lot of improvements, but would it
be better if they could break compatibility?
~~~
hacker_9
Probably the big one is non-nullable types [1], aka 'The Billion Dollar
Mistake', which would break everything.
[1]
[https://gist.github.com/olmobrutall/31d2abafe0b21b017d56](https://gist.github.com/olmobrutall/31d2abafe0b21b017d56)
~~~
hvidgaard
If that is to be done, there needs to be some legacy settings for the
compiler. I'll happily, trade inconvience for the ability to completely
abolish null from my code. I already use a Maybe pattern to avoid returning
null, but I cannot avoid checking for null because it's so ingrained in the
standard lib.
------
mamcx
Again about F#:
\- F# is poor for relational databases. (Also, I try several ORM-ish/type
providers but only "work" for sql server, and in windows). \- F# is poor for
web projects and \- F# is poor for mobile development.
I'm sticking with F# because I'm that much against C-based syntax, not because
I logically noted that C# is the only language that truly matters in .NET and
I waste more time I wish to trying to solve everything with F#. Also, I'm a
solo developer.
BTW, I use python, F#, swift, obj-c, delphi and have used Visual FoxPro and
others languages that are smaller and expected to have limited support. Among
all of this, F# is the one that cause more trouble (because tooling and
ecosystem).
But is just a joy when things work. And the _massive reduction_ in code pay
for it. It only need some love to polish around the edges.
~~~
justanotheratom
I am curious whether you think F# is poor as a language for web/mobile
development, or is it the F# tooling for such development that is lacking?
~~~
enricosada
well, some options for mobile
\- xamarin works with f# and support it:
[https://developer.xamarin.com/guides/cross-
platform/fsharp/f...](https://developer.xamarin.com/guides/cross-
platform/fsharp/fsharp_support_overview/)
\- use react native (with fable to transpile f# -> js):
[https://github.com/fable-compiler/fable-react_native-
demo](https://github.com/fable-compiler/fable-react_native-demo)
for web you can use:
\- suave ([http://suave.io](http://suave.io))
\- aspnet core (or aspnet core mvc)
both works with .NET, .NET Core and Mono
~~~
mamcx
I'm aware of all that options, and have tested them. In fact, I have tried to
use xamarin+f# for mobile for a year.
Now is a better (even have F# templates!) but is clearly a second class
citizen.
\--
Is not the case of Core that F# integration is black magic, or this has
changed in last release? All apis work now for F#? For web I try like 6 months
ago and only suave was more or less usable (however, is hard to find how solve
some stuff. NOTHING (in the open source options I test) is close to
Flask/django in this case, and asp.net was sub-par when I test it.)
\--
I also agree that F# need more push from MS. My complaints, like much others,
are about things that just need more polish and tooling - and if it get more
competitive in performance with C#, better -. So I think is good to see this
.NET strategy and think F# have a good future, to the point that F# _is the
only reason_ I come back to .NET.
Is only, I wish not just a good future. I want a AMAZING future!
------
Jaruzel
Seeing as this is a comment thread all about VB, an anecdote:
A few weeks ago, I decided to convert the 300 or data CDs and DVDs to ISOs -
there's no point keeping large stacks of discs around these days - especially
now that most OSs allow you to natively mount ISOs as virtual drives.
I wanted a quick and easy one-click ISO creator (for Windows), so hunted
online for one, and couldn't find a good free one, so turned to Visual Studio
to knock up my own utility (as I tend to do often).
Not wanting to waste too much time on this (after all it's a one-time ripping
project) I found some C# and VB.NET partial code examples of how to stream the
data byte by byte off the disc, and into an ISO file.
Try as I might, I just could not get the code to work. Again not wanting to
waste too much time, I remembered I'd also seen some VB6 code snippets during
my searches.
I fired up a VM that has VB6 installed (as I never use VB6 anymore), and threw
in the snippets, and 10 minutes later I had a rough cut of the utility ripping
it's first disc to an ISO.
People are very quick to decry older technologies, but if they still work, and
take less time to use, then where's the harm?
Screenshot of the util (that happily converted over 300 random data discs over
the space of a few days, without error):
[http://www.jaruzel.com/files/dvd-to-
iso.jpg](http://www.jaruzel.com/files/dvd-to-iso.jpg)
~~~
acqq
I agree with you. If I remember correctly there is also a x86 debugger written
in VB. And I claim that those who write C++ by using all the "boost" they can
in fact just use too much energy to write VB-style in C++ (or Python style, or
Java style). And once they achieve that, having a separate allocation for
everything, reference counting etc. even the performance converges, once the
allocation patterns are similar.
All that being said, for the task you needed, have you seen ImgBurn? It's a
native application, written in Delphi. There's a button "create the image file
from disc."
[http://imgburn.com/index.php?act=screenshots](http://imgburn.com/index.php?act=screenshots)
~~~
Jaruzel
I have ImgBurn installed, and use it a lot, but i needed the 'play a sound
when done' and 'eject when done' features - as they really help with bulk rips
if you are doing something else at the same time.
I also know from experience, that the simpler the UI, the faster repetitive
bulk tasks become - years ago I wrote something similar for Audio CDs when I
was ripping my (at the time) 500+ music CD collection.
~~~
acqq
> but i needed the 'play a sound when done' and 'eject when done'
I believed both are present in ImgBurn, see Settings/Read/Page 2 "batch mode:
eject tray before next read" and Settings/Sounds "Play sound after read"?
Wouldn't you in ImgBurn just have to put the next disc once the previous is
finished, it would even detect when you close the tray and continue
automatically with the automatic name, you wouldn't have to click anywhere in
the GUI?
------
jimmcslim
It's unlikely, but it would be great if Microsoft would take ownership of the
.Net port of Clojure. If there are two official object-oriented languages in
the .Net stable; C# and VB.NET, why not two official functional as well; F#
and Clojure?
Given Arcadia, the Clojure bridge to Unity, and Microsoft's interest in Unity
via its Unity Tools, there might be some synergy there.
~~~
nothrabannosir
C# and vb.Net are not so much two languages as they are two grammars for the
same language. Their ASTs are practically equivalent, bar some minor vb
idiosyncrasies, holdouts from the VB6 days. I would be surprised if there were
any organizational overhead to speak of for MS in maintaining the two.
Clojure and F# are fundamentally, semantically different.
(not arguing for or against, just giving some background)
~~~
marssaxman
_I would be surprised if there were any organizational overhead to speak of
for MS in maintaining the two._
I sure wouldn't, because I worked on the VB.NET compiler team back in
2008-2009, and "organizational overhead" was pretty much the whole game. The
VB and C# compilers were completely separate codebases, managed by parallel
but non-overlapping teams of engineers. We never touched the C# compiler's
codebase, and the C# people never touched VB. (I did once read through a piece
of the C# compiler source code, to see how they'd implemented a feature I was
supposed to be reimplementing for VB, so I could be sure to use the same
semantics: but that was it.)
We had lots of meetings, though. Oh, god, so many meetings. _So much_ time
burned keeping all those parallel projects in sync. Whatever commonality the
languages have occurs through endless soul-crushing hours of almost-pointless
meetings sorting out how these two separate pieces of software are both going
to be modified to do pretty much the same thing, with almost exactly the same
syntax. Every new feature had to be designed twice over, implemented twice
over, tested twice over, and documented twice over. They may look like twin
languages, but the illusion is maintained via massive, ongoing investment of
sheer brute force man-hours.
Maybe things have changed since I was there, but it's really difficult to
imagine how that could happen. The VB compiler was effectively legacy code, a
horrible creaky mess of ancient patched-together bullshit, and nobody wanted
to touch it any more than necessary for fear of breaking something.
Refactoring was totally out of the question. I cannot imagine an organization
as sclerotic as devdiv managing to rally the effort it would take to rewrite
it - safely! - such that the VB and C# codebases could be combined far enough
that they would no longer need to have a separate VB compiler team.
~~~
pzone
This is one of the most fascinating "how the sausage is made" posts I've read
on HN.
------
justanotheratom
More love for F# please.
~~~
beefydude
It is coming!
We love F# and it continues to be both an inspiration to other languages at
Microsoft, as well as API developers.
~~~
keithnz
this would be great, with more and more people learning about functional
programming techniques, C# with a functional leaning is really nothing
compared to F# with support for OO. It's like the premium language from MS but
feels not so loved.
------
smacktoward
I met a programmer from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of code
Stand in Redmond. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered language lies, whose IDE,
And DLLs, and ActiveX controls,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which drive market share, stamped on these lifeless things,
The server that mocked them and the client that fed:
And on the retail box these words appear:
'My name is VISUAL BASIC, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
------
tracker1
Cool to read.. though still somewhat disappointed that DLR languages were
pretty much left to die, and the JavaScript DLR implementation stagnated.
~~~
agnsaft
Bring back IronPython!
------
vorotato
F# is the best #
------
frik
.Net language strategy is to have no long term strategy. They just react to
the market, and don't care that much about anything else. VB6 was a great eco-
system, had most developers in the late 1990s yet they managed to completely
fuck it up. dotNet and it's VB.Net was a bad joke until 2003, and after years
of announcing and hot air it was incompatible, and the Wizard to convert was a
Lite version from a third party vendor. Many stayed VB6 and changed to the
web, or also also looked at Java alternative C#. But the RAD development is a
day of the past. Nowadays building a UI app is certainly more effort than in
VB6 days. Anyway, nowadays web apps and Android and iOS are in, WinPhone is
dead and desktop apps are out.
~~~
alkonaut
To be fair a lot of the VB6 ecosystem was showing its age in terms of text
encoding support etc. It is the Python2.7 of Visual Basic.
~~~
nmeofthestate
As a former VB6 programmer I'd say VB6 is the PHP of Visual Basic!
------
frou_dh
Is PowerShell not considered a first-class .NET language?
I thought it was on deck to take over default Windows shell/scripting status
from hellish Batch
~~~
simooooo
I wish we just had c# in a script form instead of powershell
~~~
nu5500
There is this: [http://scriptcs.net/](http://scriptcs.net/)
------
drivebyops
2017 type classes, 2018 Higher minded types ;)
Both going in at the same time would be better
~~~
louthy
You can almost do this in C# now [1]. It's ad-hoc polymorphism rather than
full on type-classes, but it does facilitate generic programming in a way that
I've not seen used in anger before.
For example, here's a definition of a super generic function that takes a
functor of string and maps it to a functor of int.
public static FB ParseInts<Functor, FA, FB>(FA input)
where Functor : struct, Functor<FA, FB, string, int> =>
default(Functor).Map(input, Int32.Parse);
The secret to it working is the constraint that constrains Functor generic
argument to be a struct and a Functor<FA, FB, string, int>. The struct bit
means I can call default(Functor) and get a valid reference back (because
structs can't be null).
I can then call it with a List:
var list = List("100", "50", "25");
Lst<int> res1 = ParseInts<FLst<string, int>, Lst<string>, Lst<int>>(list);
Or an Option:
Option<int> res2 = ParseInts<FOption<string, int>, Option<string>, Option<int>>(opt);
And it will happily map the bound values.
FLst and FOption are essentially the 'class instances'. Functor is the 'type
class', it's just a C# interface [2]:
public interface Functor<FA, FB, A, B>
{
FB Map(FA ma, Func<A, B> f);
}
The key thing is that 'this' won't be used, so the first argument is the value
to be mapped.
FLst looks like this [3]:
public struct FLst<A, B> : Functor<Lst<A>, Lst<B>, A, B>
{
public Lst<B> Map(Lst<A> ma, Func<A, B> f) =>
ma.Map(f);
}
And FOption like so [4]:
public struct FOption<A, B> :
Functor<Option<A>, Option<B>, A, B>,
BiFunctor<Option<A>, Option<B>, Unit, A, B>
{
public Option<B> BiMap(Option<A> ma, Func<Unit, B> fa, Func<A, B> fb) =>
ma.IsNone
? fa == null
? Option<B>.None
: fa(unit)
: fb == null
? Option<B>.None
: fb(ma.Value);
public Option<B> Map(Option<A> ma, Func<A, B> f) =>
ma.IsSome && f != null
? Optional(f(ma.Value))
: None;
}
As you can probably tell, the amount of clutter from specifying generic type-
parameters that the compiler could (relatively) easily work out on its own, is
pretty annoying. Which limits it's usefulness somewhat. But if you want to
write truly generic code, it's doable (with some caveats of course. you'll
notice that the Functor type isn't quite as strict say the definition in
Haskell).
I'm currently updating my language-ext project to add type-classes [5] and
class-instances [6], in the hope that the C# team will take pity on me and
make this technique a language feature (it's been seriously turning my head
inside out trying to make it work with higher-order types like monads).
This is already being investigated by some Roslyn team members [7]. I figured
this feature was unlikely to move seriously in the near term without some
indication of real world need.
[1] [https://github.com/louthy/language-ext/blob/type-
classes/Lan...](https://github.com/louthy/language-ext/blob/type-
classes/LanguageExt.Tests/TypeClassFunctor.cs#L73)
[2] [https://github.com/louthy/language-ext/blob/type-
classes/Lan...](https://github.com/louthy/language-ext/blob/type-
classes/LanguageExt.Core/TypeClasses/Functor/Functor.cs)
[3] [https://github.com/louthy/language-ext/blob/type-
classes/Lan...](https://github.com/louthy/language-ext/blob/type-
classes/LanguageExt.Core/ClassInstances/Functor/FLst.cs)
[4] [https://github.com/louthy/language-ext/blob/type-
classes/Lan...](https://github.com/louthy/language-ext/blob/type-
classes/LanguageExt.Core/ClassInstances/Functor/FOption.cs)
[5] [https://github.com/louthy/language-ext/tree/type-
classes/Lan...](https://github.com/louthy/language-ext/tree/type-
classes/LanguageExt.Core/TypeClasses)
[6] [https://github.com/louthy/language-ext/tree/type-
classes/Lan...](https://github.com/louthy/language-ext/tree/type-
classes/LanguageExt.Core/ClassInstances)
[7]
[https://github.com/MattWindsor91/roslyn/blob/master/concepts...](https://github.com/MattWindsor91/roslyn/blob/master/concepts/docs/concepts.md)
------
alrz
VB for me was the gateway to the modern .NET programming. Back in school, I've
started with VB6 and moved to VB afterwards. The transition was somehow
seamless and made me understand the .NET ecosystem better. When I was learning
C# I had to first write my code in VB and then try to port it to C#. That was
just my way of learning things. It happen to be useful since now I'm fluent in
both when I need them.
------
omellet
I guess C++/CLI doesn't count as a .NET language? Shame it gets so little
attention, it's a fantastic interop language.
------
alkonaut
I have been trying to read planning docs, github issues etc and I still can't
find if my one pet feature is planned or requested for C#: proper exhaustive
pattern matching for records/tuples.
Tuples, records, etc are all find and dandy, but what I want is propoer safety
when adding a variant, otherwise they don't really help me reason about my
code.
~~~
AndrewDucker
It didn't make C# 7. Will hopefully be in C# 8:
[https://www.infoq.com/news/2016/05/csharp7-pattern-
matching-...](https://www.infoq.com/news/2016/05/csharp7-pattern-matching-
removed)
------
macca321
The best thing Microsoft could do for .NET is give LinqPad away with every
copy of Windows.
I'm hesitant to suggest they buy it out though.
~~~
svick
Not sure LinqPad is the right way to go.
What I would like to see is a dedicated REPL application (likely based on the
scripting dialect of C#) with IntelliSense and support for NuGet packages (if
you want to have those features in LinqPad, you have to pay).
Kind of similar to Xamarin Workbooks, but better, and without all the "it's
for documentation and inspecting applications" cruft.
~~~
gogocats
Not a dedicated REPL app, but there's an 'interactive window' for c# in VS
2015, it has IntelliSense (but no NuGet support, which might be added in the
future.) [https://github.com/dotnet/interactive-
window](https://github.com/dotnet/interactive-window)
------
arwhatever
I hope Microsoft continues to support VB.NET. I don't know what I'd do without
XML literals.
~~~
cm2187
As a heavy VB user, XML literals is the one thing I never found useful. For
serialisation, the XML serialiser is easier than doing things by hand.
------
amelius
I would recommend Microsoft to name their environments and languages such that
you can meaningfully search for them in Google. I could be wrong, but I can't
imagine searching for ".net" or "f#" gives any useful results.
~~~
iaskwhy
It seems perfectly fine:
[https://www.google.co.uk/#q=f%23](https://www.google.co.uk/#q=f%23)
------
velodrome
Microsoft has been trying to kill Visual Basic since 2005. It's like a zombie.
Credit to Microsoft for keeping customers and users of the language happy.
~~~
ZenoArrow
>"Microsoft has been trying to kill Visual Basic since 2005"
Where do you get that idea from?
Perhaps it's because of confusion over the name Visual Basic. Microsoft have
deprecated VB, but not VB.NET. The name 'Visual Basic' has been applied to
both, but they're not the same language. Microsoft's support for VB.NET is
stronger than F#, and second only to C#.
~~~
velodrome
I know the article was about VB.NET (successor) but I was referring to the
predecessor.
[http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/](http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/)
[https://web.archive.org/web/20141110003154/http://www.tiobe....](https://web.archive.org/web/20141110003154/http://www.tiobe.com/content/paperinfo/tpci)
VB actually GREW in popularity in the last two years. By the way, VB is
supported until 2024. That should be enough time to switch to VB.NET, right?
:)
~~~
dragonwriter
> VB actually GREW in popularity in the last two years.
Or people have been using the term "VB" to to refer to VB.NET as old-style VB
falls out of the general consciousness, distorting Tiobe's web search engine
based methodology for generating ratings.
------
Shalhoub
Pardon my confusion, but I thought that some time back Microsoft abandoned the
effort to write all their stuff in managed code under .NET ..
~~~
becarefulyo
Many of the built-in Windows 10 apps are written in C#.
~~~
kozak
So that now you have to wait until Calculator starts?
~~~
becarefulyo
Opens instantly for me.
------
snippet22
[http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/](http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/)
------
general_ai
I read this as "we don't really care about VB anymore, but we're contractually
obliged to say that we do".
------
beachbum8029
>Strategy for Visual Basic
Not >Killing it with fire
Very disappointing.
~~~
recursive
Why are you disappointed? VB is not exactly javascript, meaning it's easy to
avoid writing it if you try. And for that matter, what exactly is your
complaint about VB?
------
dbrigg
> We will enable and encourage strong community participation in F# by continuing
> to build the necessary infrastructure and tooling to complement community
> contributions. We will make F# the best-tooled functional language on the
> market, by improving the language and tooling experience, removing road blocks
> for contributions, and addressing pain points to narrow the experience gap with
> C# and VB. As new language features appear in C#, we will ensure that they also
> interoperate well with F#. F# will continue to target platforms that are
> important to its community.
Reading between the lines this says that further development of F# will be
dropped. They're handing it over to the community for plausible deniability.
Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like a very sad day for functional
programmers.
~~~
MadsTorgersen
Hey, I didn't write anything between the lines! :-)
Don't worry: We're not "handing F# over to the community"! It always had a
strong community participation, and continues to. It's a fabulous
collaboration. This post is not an attempt to signal a change to our strategy
for F#, and if anything should be read as a commitment to F#.
We're currently integrating F# more deeply with Roslyn, which should lead to
an awesome bump in tooling quality.
~~~
dbrigg
Thank you and I apologize.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Mint, online money manager, raises $4.7M - terpua
http://venturebeat.com/2007/10/16/mint-online-money-manager-raises-47m/
======
nootopian
Is it just me or does the idea of providing all my bank and credit card login
details make anyone else a little nervous?
~~~
migpwr
I have not tried Mint yet but has anyone compared it with Bank of America's
online services? They're not bad, just a little sluggish...
~~~
emmett
I use both extensively, and Mint is far superior. You get an immediate
understanding of where your money is going that BoA's stuff doesn't even
attempt to provide.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
CTO and co-founder of Hyperloop One leaves amid reported tensions - pavornyoh
http://arstechnica.com/business/2016/07/cto-and-co-founder-of-hyperloop-one-leaves-amid-reported-tensions/
======
ChuckMcM
The fact that they agreed to build one in Moscow really amazed me. It felt
exactly like the old space elevator startup that was "Visiting potential
landing spots near or on the equator for the earth bound end of the tether."
Or put another way, I think the hyperloop idea is pretty cool, but if the
maglev train experience is any indicator, its 20+ years before you have
something even _close_ to a commercial deployment. Singularity or not,
engineering a system of that complexity takes time.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Silk Road investigator pleads guilty to stealing Bitcoins - kailuowang
http://www.engadget.com/2015/07/02/carl-force-pleads-guilty/
======
kailuowang
DoJ announcement [http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-silk-road-task-force-
ag...](http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-silk-road-task-force-agent-pleads-
guilty-extortion-money-laundering-and-obstruction)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: Direct Mail – a native email marketing app for OS X - jhammer
http://directmailmac.com
======
sjs382
"Direct Mail" is a term that usually means physical mail. This is similar
enough to cause confusion, and I had to do a second-take on your home page.
------
jhammer
Hi All,
We just released version 4 of Direct Mail. The big new features include cloud
syncing/collaboration, autoresponders, and a redesign for OS X Yosemite.
Companion app for iOS also available at
[http://directmailmac.com/stamps](http://directmailmac.com/stamps).
Happy to take any questions or feedback. Thanks!
~~~
lsiunsuex
Love the native idea, but then I clicked on the pricing link - woah. I'm by no
means telling you how to run your business, but the pay per email rates seam
really high.
I wrote an email marketing system this week for my day job against the Mailgun
API to do the sending and to send to 183k recipients, it'll cost us < $80 USD.
It would be even cheaper if I used AWS but we're a Rackspace shop.
(I understand not everyone out there is a programmer, but the price is very
high compared)
Good luck though.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Track the time of your life on Earth just in your mac menu bar - immelstorn
http://time-of-your-life.com/
======
pavelshtanko
Nice, electron?
~~~
immelstorn
yes, it is!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: Repl for Jinja2 - bechampion
https://github.com/bechampion/jinrepl
======
brudgers
If it meets the guidelines, this might be a good 'Show HN'. Show HN
guidelines:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html)
~~~
bechampion
danke!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
A fireside chat with Apple’s Jonathan Ive - Apple 2.0 - Mrinal
http://apple20.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2009/07/01/a-fireside-chat-with-apples-jonathan-ive/
======
whughes
This isn't a fireside chat; it's a report on a report of a talk he gave.
Here's the original:
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/2009/07/listening_to_m...](http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/2009/07/listening_to_mr_iphone.html)
I'm surprised Ive mentioned Jobs, since Apple doesn't want to associate
themselves too strongly with him these days.
~~~
grinich
_since Apple doesn't want to associate themselves too strongly with him these
days_
Hunh?
~~~
whughes
To me, it seems like they are shying away from being focused on him. Their
coverage of his time away and return was as minimal as possible. They probably
don't want to look weak if Jobs has to leave due to further health problems.
~~~
pohl
Haven't they always behaved in an understated manner with respect to Jobs,
though? The Steve-as-Savior meme is entirely an external creation by the
media, happy investors, and fans. I don't recall, for example, any Apple press
release that has ever focused on Jobs, except the one when they bought NeXT,
and the other when he went on leave.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Tech entrepreneurs revive communal living - cft
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Tech-entrepreneurs-revive-communal-living-4988388.php#photo-5472398
======
cft
When I submitted this, I titled it "hacker communes popping up in San
Francisco houses". Then the title was edited. What are the rules of editing
the submission titles and who does this meta-editing? I think this editing
discourages quality submissions.
~~~
jxf
My understanding is that, generally, the moderators prefer article submissions
to have titles identical to the articles themselves (presumably to avoid
linkbait titles on the HN side).
~~~
yummyfajitas
Not necessarily. An article of mine ("Don't use Hadoop - your data isn't that
big") was changed by moderators to be less ranty ("Don't use Hadoop _when_
your data isn't that big").
------
yapcguy
> "We have a vision to raise our families together."
Seriously, how naive, have they ever heard a newborn crying non-stop or a
toddler going off on a tantrum? Might disturb the karma a bit!
There really is nothing new here, ask any impoverished artist living in a
plasterboard cubicle in a warehouse with ten others, it's just a different
group of people with common interests choosing to live together.
Having room-mates does not make a "commune".
A "do-ocracy" is simply figuring out how to live together
Working at a tech firm or using the Internet all day does not make one a
"hacker".
Having been in one of the bigger places before, and seen the state of the
communal areas (washroom), the paper-thin walls, the constant coming and going
of strangers, I would advise only the young, sociable and tolerant to live
there.
~~~
toomuchtodo
It's also a bit different when you have $130 million of wealth in your pocket.
You're there by choice, not because you have no other choice.
~~~
yapcguy
Perhaps they have $130 million but they're lonely.
They have nothing in common with most people their age, who must make
decisions with monetary constraints, and can't fly off to Goa at the drop of
hat. So they surround themselves with young folk to stay human and connected.
They probably also know they got lucky - they won the start-up lottery. They
may have a deep desire to validate themselves, to prove they deserved their
fortune, so they surround themselves with young entrepreneurs full of great
ideas, as part of a new-found mission.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Analyzing HTTPS Traffic to Identify User Operating System, Browser, Application - runesoerensen
http://arxiv.org/abs/1603.04865
======
tobltobs
I am wondering a bit about "To the best of our knowledge, this is the first
work that shows this." and the already existing p0f from
[http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/](http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/).
p0f has an higher error rate (if the 96% success rate are true) and it doesn't
give hints on an application level.
~~~
ivanr
Indeed, a simple search for "passive ssl fingerprinting" would have given them
a few leads, including my blog posts from 2009. It's not something anyone can
claim to be novel in 2016.
To their credit, they focus on traffic patterns, without looking at any data.
That's actually interesting, but a bit weird, because TLS leaks a lot of
information about clients in the ClientHello message. Incorporating the
additional information would have helped them increase the accuracy.
------
dang
Url changed from
[http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/17/https_is_not_enough_...](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/17/https_is_not_enough_boffins_fingerprint_user_environments_without_cracking_crypto/),
which points to this.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The story of Jelani Henry, who says Facebook likes landed him in Rikers - kirillzubovsky
http://www.theverge.com/2014/12/10/7341077/nypd-harlem-crews-social-media-rikers-prison
======
lostcolony
'The district attorney offered him 20 years if he pled guilty, but Jelani
refused.'
'The violence changed him. "My experience on Rikers Island, that’s when I had
to show, like not just be myself," he says. "I had to turn into a beast."'
'Henry said he struggled at times to avoid taking the guilty plea.'
'Four months later, with no move by the DA to proceed, his case was finally
dismissed, almost two years to the day it began. The DA has refused to share
the document that outlines the reason for dismissing Jelani’s case with him or
his lawyer. To day, there has been no explanation and no apology for Jelani’s
detention.''
'Unfortunately, Henry’s troubles from the arrest aren’t over. He is now facing
assault charges stemming from a fight in prison. "He was innocent when he went
in there, and now he might come out with a charge for defending himself," says
Alethia.'
That, taken together, is one of the best (worst) indictments of our penal
system. It is clearly designed not to rehabilitate, not even to penalize, but
to oppress, and to self-perpetuate itself by creating 'criminals', either
those who have been turned criminal by the penal system itself, or those who
have been given plea deals with the deck stacked against them, regardless of
their innocence. We need reform, very, very badly.
~~~
valleyer
There’s a difference between being designed to oppress and being designed to
rehabilitate but extremely poorly so and oppressing as an unintended side
effect. I suspect the latter is more likely.
~~~
lostcolony
Yes yes, Hanlon's razor. My choice of words there was perhaps poor; the point
is clear, the system does not (X), but instead (Y)s, and my attribution to
malice in doing so was incorrect phrasing.
~~~
WorldWideWayne
The point is clear, but Hanlon's razor is just a bullshit adage that people
invoke when they want to stop thinking about something. It's a proverb, not a
hard scientific fact and it certainly doesn't apply to all situations. Malice
indeed exists everywhere and on a spectrum just like ignorance. People are
generally self-centered and they act on their self-centeredness all the time.
The amount of corruption in our institutions is truly staggering and playing
stupid is such an obvious and common criminal tactic that three year olds can
and do utilize it...So I wouldn't be so quick to apply Hanlon's razor.
------
bronbron
Wow. Totally crazy. My takeaways:
1) Don't be born a poor urban youth
2) If #1 is unavoidable, don't have friends (and don't go anywhere because you
might get jumped because you don't have friends)
3) Never be in any photos, even by accident
4) Never sign up for facebook/twitter/etc
5) Never talk to the police
6) Plea deals are mostly bullshit (these last two I knew already)
I'm not a lawyer, so maybe someone more well-versed can help me, but:
> But the district attorney convinced a judge that most of the time Jelani
> spent in jail shouldn’t count towards that release. She argued that days
> spent gathering more evidence, delays in testimony by a police officer who
> was on vacation, or instances where she was unprepared to make her case did
> not figure into the six-month period
Would this not be a slam-dunk lawsuit for the Henrys that his sixth amendment
rights were violated? Obviously not going to bring back lost time, but still,
that seems insane.
~~~
rayiner
Do you really not see the yawning chasm between your 1-4 and what's described
in the article? There's obviously a lot more going on here than this guy being
in pictures with gang bangers.
> While he was incarcerated, the police matched his DNA to another gun
> recovered near the scene of a gang altercation.
As for his brother Jelani, it wasn't Facebook that landed him in Rikers, it
was a witness identification. Now, that's a tragedy, but the old fashioned
kind: over reliance on eye witness identification and overly aggressive
prosecutor tactics. 20 years ago, these prosecutions would've been based on
the testimony of random people in the neighborhood about who was hanging out
with who.
~~~
e12e
> As for his brother Jelani, it wasn't Facebook that landed him in Rikers, it
> was a witness identification.
That's not what I get from the article. It was a witness that got him
_accused_ it was facebook likes that lead to him being denied bail on the
grounds of being "gang affiliated"/"part of a conspiracy".
His story wouldn't have been half as bad, if he'd just been falsely accused,
and then had the case dismissed. That's how a working justice system should
work: some innocents _will_ be caught up in it -- but they shouldn't suffer
any more for it than strictly necessary.
On another note, with such strong conspiracy laws in NY, maybe there's still
hope to get some convictions down on Wall Street?
~~~
rayiner
He was in Rikers, a jail used to hold people pending trial, because he was
charged with attempted murder on the basis of the eye-witness identification.
The article doesn't even say he was charged with a conspiracy or that the
Facebook posts were used as evidence to charge him with a conspiracy. It
appears the prosecutor uses the Facebook posts to show gang affiliation, which
is a factor in deciding whether someone is a dangerous criminal who shouldn't
be granted bail (i.e. being set free pending trial).
~~~
e12e
> It appears the prosecutor uses the Facebook posts to show gang affiliation,
> which is a factor in deciding whether someone is a dangerous criminal who
> shouldn't be granted bail (i.e. being set free pending trial).
I might have been unclear. This was my point. It appears that he might have
been charged with attempted murder either way, but might very probably have
been granted bail if not for the facebook likes. So it's not a far stretch to
say that the likes landed him in jail?
~~~
rayiner
I see your point, but that's a pretty "cute" way to phrase what happened. It
makes it seem like he was arrested and charged for what he did on facebook.
~~~
e12e
It's important to remember that jail is for innocent people, prison is for
those that have been found guilty. We don't know why the case was dismissed,
but I think it is rather safe to assume that it wasn't a very strong case. So
bail might "ordinarily" have been rather likely.
I do think it is pretty bad that you can be jailed for a year because of
hanging out with childhood friends in pictures.
------
angersock
_" We are coming to find you and monitor every step you take," Joanne Jaffe,
the department’s Housing Bureau chief, told The New York Times in 2013. "And
we are going to learn about every bad friend you have."_
The boot on the face usually ends up being local.
EDIT:
_" While he was incarcerated, the police matched his DNA to another gun
recovered near the scene of a gang altercation."_
How the does that even work? I'm calling bullshit.
EDIT2:
_Alethia finally convinced her lawyer to file a speedy trial motion and in
November of 2013 Jelani was given bail. Four months later, with no move by the
DA to proceed, his case was finally dismissed, almost two years to the day it
began. The DA has refused to share the document that outlines the reason for
dismissing Jelani’s case with him or his lawyer. To day, there has been no
explanation and no apology for Jelani’s detention._
And more of this nonsense. It's not just the beat cops that we should be
watching closely. This is absurd.
~~~
AnimalMuppet
> How the does that even work?
I _think_ it works like this: As you touch things, some of your skin cells
fall off and adhere to the thing you touched. Those cells can give up DNA to
an investigator. So it would mean that he touched the gun in question.
_When_ did he touch it? The DNA doesn't say anything about that.
~~~
xenophonf
Nor can DNA evidence reveal intent. What if one handles a gun merely to get a
feel for it (no different from ogling someone's phone or slipping into the
driver's seat of a friend's new car)? That said, the fact that a defendant
touched a gun, plus an eyewitness account putting that defendant at a crime
scene, plus recovery of the gun from the crime scene, etc. all work together
to make the case that a defendant committed a crime with a particular weapon.
Just because evidence is circumstantial doesn't make it any less powerful in
legal proceedings.
------
bproper
Hey - I'm the reporter who wrote this story. Feel free to ask me any
questions.
~~~
vickm
How do we get excellent stories like this into the broader narrative in
America? This is a story that needs to be read carefully. If somebody were to
edit this down into a 10 second segment fit for insertion into the nightly
news I don't think it would pack as much punch.
It seems like stories on 60 Minutes are the closest I've seen to hitting the
mark.
This is one story that is part of a larger story cutting across the country. I
don't know anybody republican or democrat in America that would think being
jailed for two years without a charge is acceptable. This is the right time
for America to deal with these _moral_ issues.
I hope your story takes off.
~~~
bproper
I started the story after a friend, who is a social worker and civil rights
activist, told me that he knew several kids from a large Crew Cut raid in
Brooklyn, and that they were good kids who had left the city for college, but
been dragged back by a conspiracy indictment relating to a crew they left
years earlier. Very similar to Asheem's situation.
As I worked on the story for two years I became pretty depressed at times. I
mostly write about technology - new gadgets and startups - which keep me
feeling generally excited and optimistic about the future. With this story i
really came to grips with the way the deck is stacked against poor people,
doubly do for poor people of color growing up in high crime areas.
I didn't come away from this thinking anyone was 100% guilty or innocent. But
I certainly know, based on what I was like in high school, that I would have
made the same or worse choices as these two boys if my teenage reality had
been like theirs.
------
at-fates-hands
Keep in mind when you live in states who have incredibly harsh laws for gun
control, this is pretty common.
Remember Plaxico Burress? The NFL Wide Receiver? He spent two years in federal
prison for shooting HIMSELF in the leg with a firearm that wasn't licensed in
NY or NJ:
[http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4493887](http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4493887)
_Manhattan District Attorney Robert Morgenthau insisted that the former New
York Giants wide receiver serve at least two years in prison for violating the
city 's strict gun laws. Mayor Michael Bloomberg had also publicly called for
Burress to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
On July 29, Burress took the rare and risky step of testifying before the
grand jury, hoping to convince the panel that the gun was not used in the
commission of a crime and that he was the lone victim. But days later, Burress
was indicted on two counts of criminal possession of a weapon and one count of
reckless endangerment. He faced a minimum sentence of 3½ years if convicted at
trial._
I'm pretty sure in a state like Texas, they wouldn't even bother him once they
knew his connection to the gang was minimal.
~~~
forrestthewoods
Wait, so you're telling me that gun control laws are used to oppress the under
class? Even though they were passed to protect them? Because that's the
socioeconomic group that suffers most from gun violence? Well I'll be monkey's
uncle...
~~~
refurb
Many gun control laws came about to keep guns out of the hands of black
people.[1]
[1][http://reason.com/archives/2005/02/15/the-klans-favorite-
law](http://reason.com/archives/2005/02/15/the-klans-favorite-law)
------
cperciva
Seems to me that being in jail for 2 years and then having charges dismissed
without ever going to trial should constitute a priori evidence of false
imprisonment.
------
forgingahead
Very sad story. Single parent household/lack of father figure, neighbourhoods
that exist in their own separate reality, communities where the wrong things
(acting hard, etc) are valued over education, broken social services, over-
zealous prosecutors, systemic prejudice, and tech corporations and their
advertiser patrons pushing a consumerist agenda above all else.
~~~
gizmo
This injustice is absolutely not a result of a single parent household, and
insinuating that in some sense the mother is to blame here is gross. Your
other suggestion, that the community itself is at fault (because they
culturally value the wrong things) is mistaken. It's the other way around, the
larger american culture is at fault because it is biased against black
communities.
Coates wrote a very good piece about this:
[http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/03/black-
pa...](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/03/black-pathology-
and-the-closing-of-the-progressive-mind/284523/?single_page=true)
~~~
refurb
If the cause of all this is american culture being biased against black
communities, how come so many blacks are not doing these things?
~~~
mc32
I think it's a very complicated issue and does not have an easy answer but
consider recent African immigrants to the US and US-born and raised people of
African descent. I'd love to see a study to see if their experiences are any
different. I suspect, but am not sure, that 'culture' has some influence.
I think Americans (black Americans in this case) have all kinds of baked in
things which can be either positive or negative in their daily life
interaction with others. So someone straight from Africa, let's say, has no
preconceived notions of how one is expected to act in a given community in
order to fit in. An immigrant is for some purposes a blank slate (they bring
their own tendencies from home, of course) but not having baked in American
tendencies to interact with (part of society) might afford them a different
experience, for the most part.
If there were differences in experiences, it'd be interesting if there was
something to learn from that. For example, we have relatively recent Somali
and Eritrean communities --normalizing their experience (ie take out the
difficulties being a refugee, etc. might impose) what has their experience
been in relation to the larger community?
------
aqme28
Wow. On top of everything, this should definitely violate speedy trial
requirements:
_But the district attorney convinced a judge that most of the time Jelani
spent in jail shouldn’t count towards that release. She argued that days spent
gathering more evidence, delays in testimony by a police officer who was on
vacation, or instances where she was unprepared to make her case did not
figure into the six-month period. The judge agreed. In a bit of Kafka-esque
arithmetic, 19 months became 83 days. Instead of finishing trade school,
Jelani celebrated his 20th and 21st birthdays in a cell._
~~~
Balgair
[http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/the-right-speedy-
tria...](http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/the-right-speedy-trial.html)
That right is not as obvious as it seems. Also, though I cannot find a
citation, I believe that everyone typically waives those rights (in a very
murky manner) upon arraignment.
~~~
talmand
I would suspect asking for a speedy trial is a huge bet on which side can get
better prepared in time for the trial date. Possibly most defense attorneys
don't want to take that bet because prosecutors already have their evidence in
hand.
~~~
bproper
Jelani did not waive the right to a speedy trial, and in fact his lawyer filed
the motion demanding one on three separate occasions before it was granted.
This was more than one year into his incarceration.
~~~
talmand
This is just the case outside the rule, the DA was delaying likely because the
case was so shaky to begin with because of lack of evidence. The DA was
waiting for him to crack and take a plea bargain so that in the end the DA
still looks tough on crime.
Personally, I fault the entire system for the man's treatment; the DA, the
judge, all the way up to the governor.
------
trhway
it is clear that the guys would have benefited from having a lawyer or at
least from some advice. As they obviously can't afford a full legal
representation it seems that this is where technology may potentially come to
play, something like ... wait for it ... Uber for lawyers/legal help.
------
tedunangst
Did I really need to know they were born on the same day? This was way too
long for me to actually get to the part where he went to jail for Facebook
likes. Once I got to the part where he really did have a gun, I figured
there's more to it than the headline implies.
~~~
saalweachter
My reading was different. There are two brothers. The older was arrested for
possessing a gun, pled out and got probation, and then years later was
arrested for conspiracy charges based on appearing in pictures with "known
gang members". He pled out again, got jail time, and got more jail time for
being linked to a gun while in jail.
The younger brother was arrested on suspicion based on his Facebook activity,
held for a couple of years at Rikers Island, and never charged.
IMO the outrages are (1) the older brother received a harsh sentence for
appearing in pictures (his gun charge for owning an illegal, non-functional
gun resulting in probation) and (2) the younger brother was held for two years
with no trial.
~~~
tedunangst
Thanks. That's a very readable summary.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Top Banks Suffering from Multiple Vulnerabilities - backslash
http://www.stopthehacker.com/2009/11/25/top-banks-suffering-from-multiple-vulnerabilities/
======
petronius
Interesting article. Sort of confirms what i already knew.
------
Biffins
This is why I keep all my money under my bed.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Fear of making the wrong choice, advice needed - Nathandim
Hello everyone. I'll try to keep it short. After deciding to learn programming I picked Python because of the online programming classes that are available for free and because I want to start with web development.<p>The problem started last week in a different programming community where someone mentioned that there might not be enough job opportunities for beginners and that it's better to invest my time to PHP or C# instead.<p>I'll skip that this comment was accepted with positivity to a community which is strictly made to help beginners to learn programming but, he genuinely made me think: Is it a way that this will end bad? Is there a possibility that after reading and learning for huge amount of hours daily that I won't be able to offer my service to add value to a company or customers?<p>What makes this decision heavier is my perception that I'm not young enough to afford to make a wrong choice (I'm 30 years old) and I'm not from U.S. (which I might say the job market for Python and Ruby developers looks bigger). To add to that even more, I'm not planning to stay in my country but I'll most definitely stay in Europe.<p>To sum it all up, should I consider the search results from monster and other career websites, coupled with the mentioned advice given to me (and, in effect, many beginners who read that forum) as good measurement of a programming language's job prospects or is there some kind of flawed perception involved?
======
redguava
I think you should code in a language you enjoy. If Python seems fun, then
stick with Python. If you become a good programmer, you should be able to find
work no matter which language you choose.
Also, it's harder to learn to program than it is to learn a language. You are
currently learning to program, you will find it much easier to learn your next
language (and if you stick to programming, you will learn more languages...
this will just be your first).
I would stick with Python, have fun and look for jobs when you're ready. A lot
of people have opinions on a lot of things, just keep going. Constantly
changing won't get you anywhere.
~~~
bravoyankee
I really agree with this. Go with the programming language that you enjoy the
most.
Why? Because its going to get very hard down the road.
For me, I'm toiling on a project that is taking longer than I though. The
bills are piling higher. I'm short on rent this month. I'm starting to get
doubts. However, I remind myself that I would rather do this than anything
else, and it helps anchor me.
If you enjoy it most of the time, you'll see it through when times get tough -
and they will.
~~~
Nathandim
Thank you for your input. Would you mind sharing your language of choice?
------
hdra
I know most people would probably call this a bad advice, but if the reason
you want to start to learn programming is to develop websites, PHP would be
the easiest way for you to start with, and really, when PHP starts being a
'bad' language for developing websites for you, you should be able to learn
and switch to other language easily. But, if you just looked at web
development as a starting point and plan to dive deeper in programming, Python
is a great choice. It is a language that is widely used in many fields, not to
mention the community support it has..
~~~
Nathandim
While I consider web development as my original approach to programming, I do
want to get a firm grasp around deeper programming concepts. With that said,
what I care about most right now is to hit 2 birds with 1 stone: Learn
programming with a language that will make me employable.
~~~
bmelton
As someone who originally learned to develop with PHP, then hopped around from
language to language trying to find something that I could click with that
also fixed all the things that were broken in PHP, I eventually landed on
Python.
For what it's worth, Python is a _great_ web language, and while sure, there
aren't quite as many job opportunities as you might find in PHP, I'd wager
that the average pay for the Python jobs you find is higher than the average
PHP programming opportunity (even wit Facebook screwing up the averages.)
It's also worth saying that there are tons of Python jobs available, just as
there are plenty of big websites built in Python. Regardless, Python is a
fantastic learning language, and you'll be in a much better position to learn
a new language when you know more about programming in general than you are
now (in my opinion).
------
duiker101
What I suggest you is to not learn a language, but instead learn to code. That
is the hard part. Learning how to say something is easy, learning what to say,
is hard. Each language has it's features, use case, pros and cons. But when
you know what you want to achieve, learning a new language is something
relatively easy. If you choose to learn something and stick with it you will
only find the jobs for that. If you learn how to think, a language will no
longer be a problem.
This is not an easy thing to do considering you are a beginner. But I strongly
suggest you to go for it. Lear something from python or c# or php and then mix
it. PHP is good because you can then mix it with html javascript & css to
create a complete set of web skills. C# might be good to learn about classes
types and other things. Each language has it perks. Learn a mindset and you
will unlock them all.
I also suggest you to spend more time coding than reading books. Avoid videos,
huge waste of time. Doing things, making mistakes and trying to understand how
things works will teach you faster than anything.
Good luck.
~~~
Nathandim
Thank you very much for your input. I'm definitely focused on learning the ins
and outs of the fundamental programming concepts and I must say that I'm
enjoying every moment of it!
------
vermasque
If there is a group of companies that you would like to work for, you could
learn the programming language that those companies use. That could be less
risky in order to get a job with them.
Another option for getting job experience as a beginner would be to do small
freelance work available from a site like freelance.com or odesk.com (or a
similar European site). The barrier to entry may be lower as someone doesn't
have to hire you for a full-time position to do some paid programming. You
could learn a programming language that matches the needs of jobs available on
those sites that you are interested in.
------
helen842000
I think if you can execute & build out your ideas - it doesn't matter what
language they're written in - you have a valuable skill.
Whatever your first language is it will be the hardest, after that, the
learning curve isn't as steep. Transitioning to another language is simpler
because you're already familiar with the concepts.
Don't get caught up in looking over your shoulder at what else you could be
learning. Get caught up in having fun, building & accomplishing something
great.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Creating a high availability architecture on AWS - Alan01252
http://alanhollis.com/creating-a-highly-available-minimum-viable-architecture/
======
Alan01252
Hi all,
I was writing this post yesterday before the AWS outage it seemed fitting to
post this today.
This has taken quite a long time to put together, and is only the first part
in a series. Eventually I hope to have a fully functioning base platform which
others and myself can learn from.
I'd really welcome any feedback from those who do this professionally!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
API for creating random users in your application - aram
http://randomuser.me/
======
patio11
So a lesson from when I was young and stupid: If you make fake data, it's
often advantageous to make it obviously fake data. If, in a fit of boredom,
you decide to do something _clever_ and e.g. generate plausible names and
birthdates for fake students by using government lists for the most common
names and surnames for people born that year, and you e.g. hypothetically
leave 6 pages of no-actual-human-involved fake data sitting on an office
printer, you might hypothetically end up in a very awkward conversation with
the local person in charge of regulated data breaches.
~~~
masklinn
> So a lesson from when I was young and stupid: If you make fake data, it's
> often advantageous to make it obviously fake data.
A second one: if you make fake data, it's aways advantageous to make it _edge-
case_ fake data. Your generator should break more or less every falsehood
programmers believe about names[0]
[0] [http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-
programmers-b...](http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-
believe-about-names/)
~~~
mkenyon
Masklinn, I have to point out that patio11 wrote the article to which you
linked!
------
jokull
Very cool! Limited to US only though. Check out behindthename.com/api/ if you
need country distribution. Had to map country codes to groups of names. Let me
know if you need this data. I’ve got some scripts to generate random users,
although not address or picture data.
------
Aarvay
I use Faker :) [http://faker.rubyforge.org/](http://faker.rubyforge.org/)
~~~
rabino
Or the PHP port which is awesome:
[https://github.com/fzaninotto/Faker](https://github.com/fzaninotto/Faker)
------
paulnechifor
I did a similar thing for Romanian identities [1]. Then I discovered that some
are way more extensive [2] [3].
[1] [http://minimul.ro/identitate-falsa](http://minimul.ro/identitate-falsa)
[2] [http://fakenamegenerator.com](http://fakenamegenerator.com)
[3]
[http://www.datafakegenerator.com/generador.php](http://www.datafakegenerator.com/generador.php)
------
cdcarter
Providing an md5 hash of the example password is just asking for bad password
models in new apps! Users, don't use the provided hashes, instead run the user
and password through the exact sign-up method real user data will go through.
------
Chetane
Cool idea! Btw, your Ajax code snippet won't work, 'return' is a reserved
keyword :) I would suggest using 'data' or 'response' instead for your
variable name.
------
aram
Disclaimer: I'm not the creator and I'm not associated in any way with the
project. Just found it interesting and posted here.
------
andyhmltn
On the example, it displays the gender as male and the title as 'mrs' \- Is
this a typo or an actual response?
~~~
andyhmltn
Just to help: The title isn't being updated on the ajax call :-) Everything
else is so 50% of the time it's correct 50% it's wrong haha
------
theandym
For Rails Rumble last year I created a Rails app for generating test data in
various formats. It definitely isn't as polished as this (only had 48 hours),
but allows for the user to specify their own format. After the competition I
cleaned it up a bit more and converted the data generation functionality into
a standalone Ruby gem. I'd appreciate any feedback...
App: [http://proglipsum.com/](http://proglipsum.com/)
Gem:
[https://github.com/theandym/mannequin](https://github.com/theandym/mannequin)
------
jlebrech
cool, I could make a dating site with this ;)
------
chrisbridgett
Neat little API. Would be cool if there were a way to generate users with a
particular locale - e.g. so I could generate UK users with UK addresses,
telephone numbers, etc.
------
BetaCygni
Isn't parsing the JSON and converting to your own data format more work than
just generating random users yourself?
~~~
chrisbridgett
Doesn't seem like much work at all to me, compared to creating random users.
Then again, maybe it's just me that isn't creative enough to be able to come
up with names other than "Test User", "Another User", "Somebody Else", etc.
:-p
~~~
gog
There is a library called Faker that can do this for you. It exists for perl,
ruby, php and probably other languages.
I am interested in where do this pictures come from? Did these people give
their permission to be used like this?
~~~
C1D
If you scroll to the bottom of the page you can see he got them from Greg
Peverill-Conti's 1,000 faces project, which is licensed under Creative Commons
BY-NC-SA 2.0,
------
C1D
Even though the pictures are under Creative Commons BY-NC-SA 2.0 I do feel
right using them and it seems like a lot of work to parse the data into your
own website, there are server side libraries that can do this for you.
------
ismaelc
Test console for easy testing - [https://www.mashape.com/community/random-
user-generator#!doc...](https://www.mashape.com/community/random-user-
generator#!documentation)
~~~
pdq
You don't have permissions to see or consume this API.
------
martin-adams
Very nice idea. Anyone know of an equivalent for fake e-commerce product data?
------
emeraldd
Huh, it looks like the api is ignoring the gender option entirely. It seems to
return a random gender no matter what the value of the gender parameter ....
------
um304
gender: "male", name: { title: "mrs", first: "james", last: "ramirez" },
Never knew "mrs" can be used as a male title.
~~~
polymatter
Never assume anything about names. Never attempt to validate them. It is
probably a good edge case (depending on the system in question).
I think a sibling comment has mentioned this, but it deserves repeating
([http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-
programmers-b...](http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-
believe-about-names/))
------
nirmel
all users are caucasian middle-aged people with anglo names? that's not so
random.
------
rhizome
Nasty negative left margin.
~~~
aram
It looks fine on my end; what browser/OS are you using?
~~~
rhizome
Android Chrome.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Last 48 hours in Kathmandu – a Mathematician's analysis of the earthquakes - anaxag0ras
http://younghamlet.blogspot.com/2015/04/attempt-at-some-words-of-calm-through.html
======
stevewilhelm
USGS Aftershock Forecast for the Magnitude 7.8 Nepal earthquake of April 25,
2015
(as of April 26, 2015) In the coming week, USGS expects 3-14 M≥5 aftershocks
of the magnitude 7.8 Nepal earthquake. Additionally, USGS estimates that there
is a 54% chance of a M≥6 aftershock, and a 7% chance of a M≥7 aftershock
during this one-week period. After this, in the following month and then the
following year, USGS expects several M≥5 aftershocks, with a significant
chance of M≥6 aftershock (greater than 50%). The potential for an aftershock
larger than the mainshock remains, but is small (1-2% in each time period).
Felt earthquakes (i.e., those with M≥ 3 or 4) will be common over the next
weeks to months. Based on general earthquake statistics, the expected number
of M≥ 3 or 4 aftershocks can be estimated by multiplying the expected number
of M>=5 aftershocks by 100 or 10, respectively. The expected location of the
aftershocks will be in the zone of current activity and at its edges.
Currently aftershocks are occurring in a zone extending approximately 200 km
away from the mainshock epicenter.
This information is preliminary and subject to change.
from
[http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/eventpage/us20002926#...](http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/eventpage/us20002926#general_summary)
------
jjwiseman
This is not a great analysis, and is kind of confusing.
Things will improve, the law of math promises it.
Ah well, if a mathematician says the law of math promises it!
See Omori's law (and Båth's Law and the Gutenberg–Richter law), and the
roughly 5% chance that this quake was a foreshock for an even bigger quake
("the 2002 Sumatra earthquake is regarded as a foreshock of the 2004 Indian
Ocean earthquake with a delay of more than two years between the two events")
~~~
NZ_Matt
Agreed. Earthquakes are extremly unpredictable, the best we have is the USGS
models and even then they provide very little information.
In Christchurch, New Zealand the M6.3 aftershock in February 2011 was far more
destructive than the initial M7.2 event that occured 5 months earlier. This
was because the epicenter of the February aftershock was significantly closer
to the city and populated areas.
Looking at the Nepal aftershock sequence map [1] it is a concern that many of
the aftershocks are located closer to the populated areas. I really hope that
Nepal has had the worst of it but it would be a mistake to rule out the
possibility of another major event.
[1] [http://www.latimes.com/visuals/graphics/la-fg-g-nepal-map-
qu...](http://www.latimes.com/visuals/graphics/la-fg-g-nepal-map-quakes-and-
aftershocks-20150425-htmlstory.html)
------
lostlogin
The magnitude isn't everything, Christchurch NZ being a case in point. It's
later, shallow earthquake caused much more destruction and killed many, while
the bad initial quake killed no one directly. I'm no expert, but the magnitude
of the quake is relative to the depth in a way that masks the actual
destructive power.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Why do companies care about their own valuation? - vpoulain
As far as I understand company IPO allows to raise huge amount of money. Once they raised this money why do they care about share value on a daily basis? This valuation is different than cash flow and considering it too much deeply impact long-term strategy, no?
======
cbanek
Since equity based compensation is a large part of many equity packages, if
the stock price was falling or at least not rising, that would be a reduction
in salary. Companies like equity based compensation because of tax benefits
and it generally seems cheaper since they can always issue more stock.
------
badrabbit
Loans,future investment loss, dividend loss to shareholders,C suite bonus and
job performance is measured by this,etc...
You wouldn't want to give business to a company that has been losing value
continually right?
------
blueterminal
Imagine if you're the CEO of the company and you own 100000 shares of it. Then
your net-worth between 100$/share and 120$/share will differ by $2 million.
Quite a difference, isn't? And I think most board members hold certain amount
of company's stock, and usually most people want their net-worth to grow as
much as possible, so they try to do certain things to increase the stock
price.
That's one of negative things about stocks in general in my opinion, because
people quite often have short-term (lasting a quarter or two) outlook.
~~~
pmiller2
> That's one of negative things about stocks in general in my opinion, because
> people quite often have short-term (lasting a quarter or two) outlook.
That could be easily fixed by requiring all executive and board members' stock
to be held for, say, 3 years after vesting before selling.
~~~
lberk
Has it really vested at that point then?
Or is it just a longer vesting period?
~~~
bruce511
I guess that depends on your understanding of "vesting" \- and my
understanding may be faulty.
As I understand it, if I leave the business before the vesting I get nothing.
When the stock vests it becomes mine.
A lock down of the stock then means I can't trade it, but it remains mine
(regardless of whether I stay or leave.) Once the lock is lifted I could sell
it.
So in that sense there's a difference, yes.
------
carloshpf
The main reasons have already been mentioned.. compensation, feedback to the
CEO, etc.. but an interesting one that I just saw, and I don’t know if it’s
possible, appeared on the TV Show Succession (HBO) where the family's stock in
the company (which they control but not by much) secures a loan that the
lender can call if the stock drops below a certain price.
------
shoo
Another angle to think about is the opportunity the company has to raise
additional capital after IPO. All things equal, if the share price offered by
the market is higher, it is cheaper for the company to raise additional
capital by selling additional equity. The company will usually also have an
alternative way of raising capital by taking on debt rather than selling
equity.
------
TheCoelacanth
Shareholders care deeply about valuation because it puts money in their pocket
when the valuation rises.
Shareholders are the CEO's boss.
------
pixiemaster
It’s a feedback to the CEO how good their company is. Buy putting a price on
it (valuation), she/he gets feedback on how she/he is contributing to value
increase.
in theory this factors in all aspects, e.g. more than just revenue, because
it’s a comparison with other companies as well.
reality IMHO: it’s bullshit to manage short term valuation only.
------
BOOSTERHIDROGEN
Same thing with stock market, I couldn’t understand that people swapping stock
amongst themselves. No money going into productive use
~~~
blueterminal
You buy a portion of the business. Why wouldn't you want to do that if you
have some cash and see a nice deal? It's a beautiful system.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
No, Flappy Bird developer didn't give up on $50,000 a day - ColinWright
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57618722-93/no-flappy-bird-developer-didnt-give-up-on-$50000-a-day/
======
lazyjones
All other interesting events surrounding this game aside, I believe this
displays well how pointless online and in-app advertising has become. Who are
the poor advertisers paying millions for ads that are most certainly ignored
because users are busy playing a game that needs their full attention?
~~~
jaredsohn
Sometimes I'll notice the ad because it hides the top pipe that I strangely
think is free space.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Astronomers discover ‘impossibly massive’ black hole LB-1 - Waiterpanda
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3039790/chinese-astronomers-discover-impossibly-massive-black-hole-lb-1
======
gus_massa
From a previous post, the "impossibility" part is that it is impossible to
form a black hole of this size after a supernova. It must be formed merging a
few smaller black holes. So it's interesting, but the "impossibility" part is
just linkbait.
~~~
ksaj
I make it a habit to not read science-themed articles that contain the word or
variants of the word "impossible" when describing something clearly observed.
The word "unexpectedly" or "surprisingly" is probably what they mean. But if
the writer thinks the scientists believe their observations to be impossible,
then they've written an article that isn't worth reading. The title already
says it isn't so -- they couldn't have observed this in any way.
These types of headline make it sound like the scientists don't know what
they're talking about. Since they obviously do know what they've observed, I'd
rather read about it from a writer who doesn't speak of them as being so
inept.
No wonder the Internet is littered with people who don't trust science. The
headlines keep discounting new discoveries by blatantly calling them
impossible.
I have the same beef with science writers who speak of "different solar
systems." Our sun is Sol. Our planetary system is the _only_ Solar System. All
those others are different star systems or different planetary systems that
may or may not be Solar-like, and they are named after their own star... not
after _ours_.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
CockroachDB 2.0 released - nate_stewart
https://www.cockroachlabs.com/blog/cockroachdb-2-0-release/
======
caleblloyd
I am genuinely interested in using CockroachDB as a primary datastore but feel
like I have been burned too many times by hopping on board with a young
database.
I tried lucene based databases that offered amazing search capability but were
riddled with data corruption issues. Then there was RethinkDB which was very
promising but ran out of funding.
I am skeptical that a networked database with multiple nodes can match the
performance of a single master database such as MySQL, PostgreSQL, or SQL
Server. I did a quick benchmark of CockroachDB 1.x and MySQL last year and
found that CockroachDB was 5-10x slower on simple CRUD queries:
[https://github.com/caleblloyd/MySqlCockroachBench/wiki/Concu...](https://github.com/caleblloyd/MySqlCockroachBench/wiki/Concurrency-
Benchmark-Results) Are there any good independent benchmarks of performance?
According to crunchbase, Cockroach Labs has raised $53.5m (RethinkDB had only
raised $12m). Is there evidence that Cockroach Labs is on track to make money
and is going to survive?
If the company is healthy and the performance is verified as close to a major
RDBMS, I would be comfortable trying it out as a primary datastore. If those
questions can't be definitely answered right now, I'll probably continue to
wait for the company and the tech to mature.
~~~
darksaints
> I am skeptical that a networked database with multiple nodes can match the
> performance of a single master database such as MySQL, PostgreSQL, or SQL
> Server.
It likely can't unless there is some black magic going on. Single node speed
will always be faster. But once you get to that point where a single node
chokes on the amount of data or query throughput that you have, you don't
really have a choice anymore.
My personal plan is to start with Postgres RDS. Grow until RDS doesn't work
anymore, then move to ultra beefy bare metal servers in colocation with AWS
Direct Connect. If I ever outgrow an 4x24 core server with 3TB of memory on a
RAIDed NVMe disk cluster, I might move to Citus.
For the various distributed database companies out there, I believe the one
that will win in the marketplace is the one working or partnering to develop
specialized hardware and networking, and then optimizing for it.
~~~
p0rkbelly
Why not bare metal on AWS? Going to DX is going to give you a conservative
10ms on your calls...
~~~
darksaints
That might be a good intermediate option, but they still don't have instances
with 4x24 cpu, or >488GB ram.
~~~
openasocket
Did you look at the x1 options? Up to 128 CPUs and 3,904GB of RAM on the
x1e.32xlarge.
~~~
darksaints
Those aren't bare metal. And in terms of database scalability, I would jump
for bare metal before beefier servers, due to the fact that the disk is local
and you don't have to deal with EBS noisy neighbors.
~~~
openasocket
The x1e.32xlarge has 4TB of SSD in addition to dedicated EBS bandwidth.
~~~
saosebastiao
I haven't tried it, but IIRC that's only network bandwidth to the block store.
Better than the alternative for sure, but I would assume disk access is still
noisy unless you have a dedicated drive.
~~~
welder
The max IOPS for provisioned EBS is less than 10% the max IOPS of dedicated
hardware SSDs.
------
pat2man
I think the combination of Cockroach and Kubernetes is going to be a game
changer. Modern orchestration tools really are still struggling with single
points of failure and Cockroach really shines there. The fact that both tools
are maturing at around the same time is a real win for Cockroach. Additionally
its use of certificate authentication just fits in with the rest of
Kubernetes.
~~~
erikpukinskis
How does Kubernetes help with failover?
~~~
lilbobbytables
It's distributed, with no single point of failure. Your machines or vms that
manage the cluster (should be) separate from those running the containers.
Ideally you set up 3 master nodes, with distributed etcd cluster for state,
and enough machines to run your services with replication.
All of which is not bad at all to get started with if you use something like
Kops.
Some useful docs: [https://kubernetes.io/docs/admin/high-
availability/building/](https://kubernetes.io/docs/admin/high-
availability/building/)
------
michaelmior
Geo-partitioning seems to be the killer feature here especially with GDPR
looming. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm not aware of any other DB which makes
physically locating records in a particular region so easy.
~~~
synthmeat
You can create geo-zones for your MongoDB shards. [1] It has pretty powerful
geo-spatial queries too, but that's unrelated.
[1] [https://docs.mongodb.com/manual/tutorial/sharding-
segmenting...](https://docs.mongodb.com/manual/tutorial/sharding-segmenting-
data-by-location/)
------
udia
I find it very interesting that although CockroachDB itself is stable and
production ready, all of the client drivers are still 'beta'.
[https://www.cockroachlabs.com/docs/stable/install-client-
dri...](https://www.cockroachlabs.com/docs/stable/install-client-drivers.html)
That being said, I am really excited to try this out. 2.0 adding JSON support
is what converted me to try this out for a project.
~~~
manigandham
It uses the postgresql interface so any Postgres compatible client should
work. The status just refers to esoteric features that may not be supported.
------
bit_4l
Congrats on the great advancement. It's also a coincidence that TablePlus just
started to support CockroachDB yesterday. In case someone need a good GUI:
[https://github.com/TablePlus/TablePlus/issues/374](https://github.com/TablePlus/TablePlus/issues/374)
------
jinqueeny
Congrats on a major achievement, CRDB! It’s been really hard-core and cool
stuff! Super excited to see that one more use case is coming in, the one with
the Blockchain! In case someone is interested, TiDB released a case study with
Mobike (with a daily data growth at ~30TB) just one day before:
[https://www.pingcap.com/blog/Use-Case-TiDB-in-
Mobike/](https://www.pingcap.com/blog/Use-Case-TiDB-in-Mobike/)
------
bogomipz
Tangentially related - I would be interested in hearing anyone's experience so
running CockroachDB 1.x in production.
------
lacker
Question on the efficiency of inverted indices for Cockroach json tables - if
you do a query for identity on two of the fields, like searching for all json
documents containing `{a: 1, b: 2}`, how efficient is that? Will it
essentially only use one of the indices on a and b, or will it work like a sql
multi column btree index?
~~~
foldU
Good question! In 2.0 we only use one of the fields for the index lookup and
then use the rest as a filter. For 2.1 we’re planning on augmenting our
execution engine to enable making use of all the fields in a more efficient
way. We have an RFC[0] describing the way our inverted indexes are designed,
though not everything outlined in that document is implemented yet.
[0]:
[https://github.com/cockroachdb/cockroach/blob/master/docs/RF...](https://github.com/cockroachdb/cockroach/blob/master/docs/RFCS/20171020_inverted_indexes.md)
------
notheguyouthink
Here's a different take on databases.. Which is easiest to manage for a shop
with minimal DB knowledge.
That seems like a scary situation, .. and you're correct. It doesn't change
the reality though, heh.
So how does Cockroach compare to Postgres, or Maria, TiDB, etc on ease of
management? Any thoughts?
~~~
manigandham
If you want rock-solid stability? Just use Postgres. Decades of production
use, experts easily available, and scales very high on a single node.
Replication and backup are solved and there are lots of extensions for more
functionality. You can also try the hosted options which all cloud vendors
have, or I recommend Aiven.
Don't use any distributed relational database unless you actually have a need
for it, like horizontal scalability for massive data, multi-regional access,
or 100% uptime guarantees.
~~~
notheguyouthink
Appreciate the insight
------
didibus
Can someone explain the inner workings and thus tradeoffs it makes? And how it
would impact when and how you'd want to use it?
~~~
tshannon
The FAQ on the website is a good place to start:
[https://www.cockroachlabs.com/docs/stable/frequently-
asked-q...](https://www.cockroachlabs.com/docs/stable/frequently-asked-
questions.html)
When is CockroachDB a good choice? CockroachDB is well suited for applications
that require reliable, available, and correct data regardless of scale. It is
built to automatically replicate, rebalance, and recover with minimal
configuration and operational overhead. Specific use cases include:
Distributed or replicated OLTP Multi-datacenter deployments Multi-region
deployments Cloud migrations Cloud-native infrastructure initiatives
When is CockroachDB not a good choice? CockroachDB is not a good choice when
very low latency reads and writes are critical; use an in-memory database
instead.
Also, CockroachDB is not yet suitable for:
Heavy analytics / OLAP
~~~
didibus
I guess I was hoping for the engineering expert FAQ.
What level of reliability, how, what tradeoff in my table design will I need
to make, same thing for availability, correctness and scale.
None of the info in this FAQ allow me to know that CockroachDB is the right
choice for me against the competition which advertises the same generic DB
marketing terms.
Edit: And yes, I can go and read the documentation and deep dive into the
internals myself, but I don't care enough to do so, because I already have DBs
that fulfill those use cases that I know off, and I would hope therefore that
CockroachDB would make it very quick, easy and in my face to find the info
that will make me go: Ah Ha, this is the distinguishing factor and the reason
why I might want to favor and care to use CockroachDB the next time I've got
such a use case.
------
truth_seeker
Is community edition build capable of Multi DC ?
~~~
pat2man
Yes, but for multi DC you will probably want many of the tools in the
enterprise edition:
[https://www.cockroachlabs.com/pricing/](https://www.cockroachlabs.com/pricing/)
~~~
teraflop
There's a noticeable lack of pricing on that "pricing" page...
------
irfansharif
For those in the area, the CockroachDB folk are hosting a meetup demoing some
of the new 2.0 niceties:
[https://twitter.com/CockroachDB/status/978701442050592768?s=...](https://twitter.com/CockroachDB/status/978701442050592768?s=20)
------
kevindqc
I thought the name was weird and found this:
The name was chosen in 2012, two years before the open source project was
started. I had just gotten done with an exhausting and ultimately frustrating
survey of OSS database products for the backend of a new private photo sharing
service called Viewfinder. I'd tried and found wanting MySQL, Postgres, AWS
SimpleDB, Hbase, Cassandra, and Riak.
I was annoyed. Why wasn't there a scalable, survivable, consistent database
with transactions? I was even willing to drop transactions as a requirement –
a terrible sacrifice. The frustration led me to write a manifesto. What would
the "right" database look like?
I imagined it would be composed of symmetric nodes, require no external
dependencies, spread itself naturally across availability zones for survival.
Each node would autonomously replicate and repair data. These were the
capabilities that led me to the name "cockroach", because they'll colonize the
available resources and are nearly impossible to kill.
\- Spencer Kimball
~~~
hashkb
Can mods just delete comments about the name of this project? It's getting
absurd.
~~~
rjpr
One could argue that if the creators didn't want a constant discussion around
the name every time they tried to promote it, they would have chosen a better
name.
I don't think we should be censoring a discussion just because you've already
had that particular discussion.
~~~
Gigablah
I think it’s a brilliant decision. It serves as bait to separate the vapid,
superficial commenters from those who are actually interested in the
technology.
~~~
menacingly
I'd bet good folding money that they change it at a certain growth point, and
I'll take it as a good sign when they do.
~~~
erikpukinskis
How much you want to bet? I’ll take 50/50 odds.
------
doall
Is there any good abbreviation or a nickname for this DB?
Initially I thought I could get used to it, but after many years watching in
HN I haven't succeeded yet.
Perhaps you cut the word in half, but it just creates another two strong words
and shows the survival power of the word :(
Calling it CDB doesn't click to me either.
~~~
loiselleatwork
We call it CRDB internally
------
mkhalil
Queue the comments about it's name...
Congratulations to the CockroachDB team. I have been using this on a few
projects. I find the ease of scalability and redundancy very nice.
Also, the ability to use SQL commands on a transactional DB is REALLY helpful.
Keep it up.
------
MockObject
I wouldn't use it because I just don't want to see and write its name daily.
~~~
shepardrtc
People are downvoting you, but there's something to be said about it. What
happens if you try to pitch CockroachDB to your non-techie upper management?
They're going to look at you like you're an idiot. Names aren't important
unless they're bad because first impressions do matter.
~~~
is_true
I think the opposite. The name makes it easier to describe what it does to
people that doesn't understand the technical vocabulary.
~~~
hunterjrj
In this case, with the connotations that the name "coach roach" is associated
with, you'd be wrong:
[https://www.huffingtonpost.com/molly-reynolds/why-brand-
name...](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/molly-reynolds/why-brand-names-are-so-
im_b_11930994.html)
~~~
megaman22
The only connotations I've got with cockroaches is resiliency, and maybe
hissing?
~~~
rhencke
I guess that does explain the custom support for
PRAGMA hissing_noise();
------
davidy123
I think names are important. CockroachDB and GunDB both chose names that will
hurt their acceptance. I often wonder how intentional it is for open source
projects to choose strange names (GIMP, etc). Is it a defense against having
to fit in with "mainstream" perspectives?
Also, I wonder why Apache doesn't change their name. It would be a good
opportunity for rebranding.
------
misterbowfinger
Reposting this to see if anyone could comment (last time i promise):
So. For me, personally, I don't care about the name. I generally care that
it's great tech, and it clearly has a great team behind it. However....
If I worked at CockroachDB, and I saw the negative feedback around the name,
I'd take it to heart. At the end of the day, the name is marketing for the
hard work of their engineers, and marketing for the engineers that want to use
this DB (remember, they need to sell it to their managers who may not be
technical).
This issue can show up in unexpected ways. For example, for cloud providers
like Compose (IBM company), would they be comfortable with putting
"CockroachDB" on the front page? They might if it's good enough, but it's at
least a consideration (i.e. another meeting, another stakeholder to convince).
Or how about an enterprise company that's going through due diligence, and
when their client asks them about their tech stack do they say "CockroachDB"
or do they obfuscate the name by saying "It's a high-performance distributed
database". That's a crucial moment to market CockroachDB, and it could get
lost. As sad as it is, saying that you're using MySQL "because Oracle" is a
point of leverage for some sales people.
Is the name worth it? Asking honestly.
~~~
zzzcpan
> I saw the negative feedback around the name, I'd take it to heart.
You shouldn't, marketing is not about your personal feelings or feedback on
your marketing. Cockroach name is clearly superior to every other database
name, look how memorable it is and how much buzz it generates.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
WhatsApp has been bought by Facebook. Time to try out the better version. - JelteF
https://telegram.org/#
======
bazinga123
you have so many downloads, are you still struggling with users? Can you
explain further on this
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
“Scientific Discovery Is Not Valuable Unless It Has Commercial Value.” - mikecane
http://jonathanturley.org/2013/07/09/the-rise-of-the-science-philistines-canadas-chief-science-regulator-announces-that-scientific-discovery-is-not-valuable-unless-it-has-commercial-value/
======
schrodingersCat
DNA, quantum theory, and yes quite a few early vaccines were developed without
any commercial goal in mind. Some of the biggest scientific discoveries were
done purely for the sake of discovery (i.e. basic science). This mentality is
toxic and will tank innovation in this country. This is not isolated to the
NRC. If you look at how the NIH (the biggest source of research funding in the
US) has changed their mission in the past few years, you will see that
translational science is being emphasized. Short term this will definitely
lead to more cures (the e.bola vaccine and HIV vaccines are the best
examples), but long term this will have the effect of stunting basic life
science research. Don't think its a big deal? Ask why the NIH is now funding 0
basic science PhD students. That's right not a reduction, zero basic science
pre-doctoral fellowships. I'm really glad someone posted this article
~~~
Theory5
My favorite example of science for humanity's sake was the development of the
polio vaccine. Its always sad to see someone like this who values commercial
benefits over scientific progress become head of a scientific organization.
------
scotty79
Commercial value is not valuable unless it's used to make a scientiic
discovery.
------
beauzero
Well throw the Polio vaccine out then.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Intel XDK - rohu1990
http://xdk-software.intel.com/
======
kbojody
Since there is zero description of what this actually is on that page, I had
to go to the google store to find info on the plugin.
> Develop HTML5-based apps with the Intel® XDK (cross platform development
> kit)
> The XDK is the world’s first HTML5 powered mobile application development
> tool. With it, you can create, debug and build customized, robust HTML5 apps
> in hours, and the XDK runs on either Mac or PC Platforms. Intel's cloud-
> based build system turns your HTML5-based apps into 100% native API-
> compliant mobile apps for iOS or Android, or you can deploy them as webapps
> or Chrome apps. All from a single code base!
> Creating great HTML5 apps requires great HTML5 tools and that’s exactly what
> the XDK is. If you can build it for the web using HTML5, CSS3 and
> JavaScript, you can use the Intel® XDK to build it as an HTML5 web app or as
> a native app for the iPhone, iPad and all Android devices. There’s no need
> to learn Objective C, or install complicated SDKs. Instead, using industry-
> standard HTML5 and CSS3, you can include animation, effects, styling and
> video for enhanced interactivity. Intel's javascript libraries give you all
> the sexy transitions and scrollers with simple javascript calls.
> The XDK has been designed to make it very easy for a developer to check look
> and feel on diverse hardware platforms. The XDK’s debugging tools allow
> testing with on-screen emulation, local on-device, and remotely anywhere in
> the world without requiring ad-hoc builds or security certificates.
> PhoneGap Friendly
> The XDK is fully compatible with the PhoneGap HTML5 cross platform
> development project, providing many features that are missing from the open
> source project.
> These Apps Do It All
> Unlike traditional web apps that are trapped inside a browser, You can
> easily use device capabilities in mobile apps you create with the XDK. our
> JavaScript hardware abstraction allows easy access to specialized device
> capabilities such as GPS, accelerometer, camera, touch interaction &
> gestures, vibration and more. Thousands of developers are building games,
> utilities, and fun apps with without having to even own a Mac or learn
> Objective C.
> How many Apps have you made Today?
> Everyone has some app ideas - get started on yours now. It's totally free to
> download and use the Intel® XDK.
~~~
setheron
> world’s first HTML5 powered mobile application development tool
Huh? lol.
------
zackmorris
It's too bad that Intel doesn't go into more detail on the page. The idea of a
cross platform HTML5 library with a solid technical foundation is compelling.
However, mobile apps alone are too narrow of a focus so I hope it's more open-
ended like SDL.
Also an IDE isn't really necessary and I think it will muddy what they are
trying to accomplish. However - building for the iOS App Store is such a
uniquely painful process that I can see how they might interpret that as a
found pain and encapsulate it. I'm curious to see how XDK evolves.
------
kristianp
I think this is the more appropriate landing page, it describes what the XDK
is, at least: [http://html5dev-software.intel.com/](http://html5dev-
software.intel.com/)
Edit: It doesn't work with the OpenJDK Runtime Environment 1.6, IcedTea, of
course. Why is OpenJDK so problematic? Is it OpenJDK bugs, or Application
Developers doing something wrong?
------
rohu1990
I just got it running and its awsome development set for the HTML5 mobile app
development, Intel App framework, Phonegap, and some game library are mainly
supported, along with multiple device testing including features like
accelerometer, multi touch, wifi , 3g ,rotations etc.
------
fredsanford
WTF is the intel XDK and why don't they bother to explain it on the landing
page. As for requiring Java? No thanks, when I figure out what it does, I'll
find something else to do it without involving Whoracle.
~~~
emmelaich
A Chrome extension is offered as an alternative.
At least that's my reading.
~~~
fredsanford
And it reads to me as if the Chrome extension still requires Oracle Cancer.
------
PaulHoule
This didn't work with my web browser -- what is this and what does it do?
~~~
rohu1990
It works with chrome or chromium, Please try this link after installation
[http://localhost:58888/_emulator/_ide/index.html](http://localhost:58888/_emulator/_ide/index.html)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Scaling Twitter & Scaling Ruby on Rails (by Blaine from Twitter) - gustaf
http://www.slideshare.net/Blaine/scaling-twitter
======
schoudha
<http://www.atdot.net/yarv/>
Ruby will be 5 times faster by Christmas 2007. :)
------
zeph
does anyone know if there is/will be any video or audio to go with these
slides? The takahashi-ness of them suggests to me that there might be more in
the delivery that we aren't getting with the slides alone...
~~~
colinschlueter
There's a video here:
[http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7846959339830379167&hl;=en](http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7846959339830379167&hl=en)
------
jimbo_jr
Awesome! The twitter scaling issue has been in the news a lot lately....
------
joshwa
"erlang? (what are you doing: stabbing my eyes out with a fork)"
lol
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
NET Core 3.0 Intrinsics in Real Life – 3/3 - matthewwarren
https://bits.houmus.org/2018-08-20/netcoreapp3.0-intrinsics-in-real-life-pt3
======
reitzensteinm
If op is reading this, eg, xor eax eax will zero the entire 64 bit register,
so rax will be zero.
It's not that the processor is clever enough to know there's no dependency,
there just isn't one.
Great article!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: What to do with an existing hydronic house heating system? - EFFALO
Just moved into an older house that has an existing hydronic baseboard heating system installed. It's connected to a boiler that burns heating oil. While the system is quite old, it still works. I've never lived in a house with this type of heating, but from my research I've learned how expensive and inefficient heating oil is, compared to more modern methods of environmental control.<p>Does anyone out there have any suggestions or experience on how this system can be repurposed to be made more efficient? Given that all this pipe has already been run, I'd prefer to find a way to put it to use over removing it entirely.
======
brudgers
_my research I 've learned how expensive and inefficient heating oil is_
Test and measure.
The most common (in the US) type of home heating systems are forced-air. Fans
pull cooler air into the system, past a heating element, and then out into the
space to be heated. The heated air eventually warms the occupants by
convection.
The less common (in the US) approach is radiant heating. Heat up a surface and
warm the contents of the space (including people) by infra-red radiation. This
is how most of the heat in the universe moves (e.g. the sun's heat across the
vacuum of space to the earth).
Hydronic heating via baseboards has several potential efficiency advantages.
It is radiant. Radiant heat heats people not air. The transfer mechanism is
liquid not air. Water conducts heat more efficiently than air. This is why
fiberglass insulation is fluffy full of airspaces and why it loses
effectiveness when wet. Finally, radiant baseboard provide heat along the
building perimiter, low-near the floor, and without creating drafts (moving
air).
Fuel-oil prices tend to fluctuate more than electricity or natural gas because
it is less subject to regulation. It is less subject to regulation because
natural gas and electricity run infrastructure in the public right of way.
Finally, expensive is relative. That's why test and measure. Fuel oil can be
twice as expensive as natural gas. But that might mean $600/month versus
$300/month or $150/month versus $75/month. Those are economically divergent
against the cost of changing the system.
Ok, the real "finally." If it ain't broke don't fix it. Having a warm house is
98% of what's important. There are lots of other places to spend money that
will significantly improve livability. Many of them are going to be easier to
accomplish because swapping out heat systems involves lots and lots and lots
of tradeoffs, vetting contractors, and living with disruption of significant
construction...and of course, swapping out heating systems doesn't make your
house better. The fact that the system is still in use is evidence that it is
good enough. Good luck.
~~~
tucaz
This is the reason I come to HN. Thank you, sir.
------
PaulHoule
What I've heard is the opposite. If you are going to burn fossil fuels for
heat, those oil burning boilers are more efficient than most hot water heaters
and furnaces. The hydronic system is also efficient at getting heat in the
right place.
To really improve on an oil boiler, you could get a heat pump or maybe active
or passive solar. If you have a system that generates hot water you could
probably run it through existing pipes.
~~~
brudgers
Most places with boilers are too cold for air to air heat pumps to be viable
during heating season. Geo-thermal heat pumps have a wider range but they
involve significant site work and require a non-trivial lot size. In terms of
expense a typical geothermal heat pump will have a very long payback period.
An open loop geothermal heat pump might be practical if there’s a source and
sink for the water running through it. Most people don’t have those. But it’s
a simple system with a water pump and fan as the only moving parts.
~~~
toomuchtodo
Air source heat pumps can operate all the way down to 0F. I’ve paired one with
a hydronic system, with a firewood heated boiler for backup heat, in rural
Pennsylvania.
The less reliable power is and the colder it gets during winter months, the
more tricky the problem gets.
~~~
brudgers
Typical residential units come with a resistance electrical heating element.
It forms the basis of the "emergency heat" functionality. It also begins
operating as ambient outdoor conditions exceed the performance of the heat
pump mechanism.
I mention this not because this is what your particular system does. I mention
it because it is typical for widely available residential heat pumps in the
ordinary market.
------
one2know
Someone told me they switched to heating oil because the local market had only
one local utility for natural gas which was charging too much. With heating
oil there are multiple suppliers who can drive a truck to your house and price
competition.
All heaters are 100% efficient in that any leaked heat leaks into the house
you are trying to heat. I would look at insulation if you are trying to be
more green.
------
seattle_spring
My hydronic system is heated by a tankless and costs almost nothing. Would
that be a possible conversion?
------
gshdg
My cousins use a black roof with water pipes just underneath to absorb heat on
sunny days, and circulate it down to a giant insulated basement water tank
that functions as a heat sink. They then use that to supplement their heating
system.
------
sloaken
Fill your oil tank now while prices are low. If you can get the company to let
you pre-buy at todays prices, I would do that too.
------
dhruvkar
In addition to all the other comments, radiant heat doesn't dry out your skin
like forced air does.
This was a big plus for me.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Delmore Schwartz vs. Delmore Schwartz - lermontov
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/articles/detail/91295
======
cafard
Minor point: "[Schwartz and T.S. Eliot] had studied philosophy at Harvard and
left without taking a degree, but there the similarities ended." Eliot never
took the examination for his Ph.D., but did collect a B.A. and M.A. from
Harvard.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
pocketdiner.co.uk - the future of mobile restaurant websites - chunkyslink
http://www.pocketdiner.co.uk/
======
chunkyslink
Although not really involved in this project myself I work with and am friends
with the people behind it (who are not HN members) but I know they would
appreciate any feedback from this community.
------
pbhjpbhj
Looks great to me, the homepage video is very slick and convincing IMO. If I
owned a restaurant I'd be looking at this more closely for sure.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Rare photo of Richard Stallman before the neckbeard, dancing with Lisp Machine - tjaerv
https://twitter.com/szpak/status/376878504547082241/photo/1
======
olefoo
So this seems like the appropriate thread to link a series of illustrations of
sorting and searching algorithms illustrated with and by Hungarian Folk
Dancers [http://algo-rythmics.ms.sapientia.ro/](http://algo-
rythmics.ms.sapientia.ro/)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Achievement Unlocked! - hanifvirani
http://evilrouters.net/achievement-unlocked/
======
statenjason
Site is down for me. Google cache for anyone who's having same issue:
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vaksAVJ...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vaksAVJsSUQJ:evilrouters.net/achievement-
unlocked/+http://evilrouters.net/achievement-
unlocked/&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com)
~~~
tibbon
Any idea what the content was? It seemed to be all photos but the google cache
didn't get them
~~~
statenjason
Odd, when I posted it all of the photos were there. They were a list of
steam/xbox style achievements related to IT.
Looking at it now, it seems that the cache link expired. Googling the original
address and viewing cache will show a version with the images.
------
zdw
I've had "The Gift" for a while. I think car mechanics have that one too...
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Go: It Mostly Doesn't Suck - ingve
https://athornton.github.io/go-it-mostly-doesnt-suck/#/step-1
======
dvddgld
I always enjoy content of this style, entertaining and effective. There’s no
unnecessary filler and I get to laugh along the way.
I’ve briefly used golang before and the experience was very smooth. Will find
out soon whether it continues to be painless in a more complex context.
~~~
Finnucane
Hate the slide presentation. Got tired of clicking through tiny chunks without
knowing when it would end.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Court found NSA surveillance unconstitutional in 2011 - replax
http://blog.rongarret.info/2013/06/court-finds-nsa-surveillance.html
======
chris_mahan
A quote by Joseph Goebbels:
"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually
come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State
can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military
consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to
use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of
the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State."
Who was Joseph Goebbels? Per Wikipedia: Paul Joseph Goebbels (29 October 1897
– 1 May 1945) was a German politician and Reich Minister of Propaganda in Nazi
Germany from 1933 to 1945. (see
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels))
~~~
run4yourlives
Hacker News has officially jumped the shark when not only do we have 300
stories about the same (political) topic on the front page, we have a top
rated comment following Godwin's law.
Can I get an email or something when this site decides it wants to return to
technology and not be r/Politics?
~~~
drhayes9
I can't think of any single topic more important to the health of the Internet
as we know it then this, right now. Sorry to be harsh, but dismissing these
discussions as merely "politics" is short-sighted and naive.
~~~
run4yourlives
If you think this is anything different from what has been happening over the
last 30-40 years, (and probably longer than that) you are the one that is
naive, not me.
There is nothing new coming from this, other than the fact that people seem to
have had their bubbles of ignorance burst.
The internet is the same today as it was yesterday, because a large majority
of people simply don't care. You may find this disturbing, but it is
undeniable.
The circle jerk of the last few days has more properly resembled a university
politics class than it has technology and entrepreneurship. I'm not saying
politics isn't important though, I'm saying it is better discussed elsewhere.
There is nothing new or insightful being added at this point. It's all just
meaningless twaddle.
If you care, get off your ass and go join a campaign for a person that will
stop this stuff.
~~~
drhayes9
If you knew this was happening and had proof before two weeks ago then you've
got a great point.
This is different. Now there's _proof_. Leaked documents implicating the
largest consumer Internet companies that are recognizable names for every US
citizen. Now these large Internet companies have to stand in front of their
customers, their shareholders and say something about this. Now's our chance
to demand answers from them and from our government. Now there's money
involved; this strikes me as a very nice lever with which to move the world.
I agree, standing around saying, "Well, I know there's spying going on but, oh
well!" is not productive. My ass has been gotten off of for a very long time.
But thinking that nothing is different today is over-the-top cynical.
~~~
run4yourlives
_Now there 's proof._
So. Fucking. What.
Call me cynical, I don't care. I've grown out of my desire to completely
change the world. Right now I want a nice safe place for my family to be
allowed to go about its business. I have that now, like I had it yesterday,
and based on all available data I'll have that tomorrow. Yes, even with
someone possibly monitoring that I called Indonesia 10 times over the past 15
years.
Most western democracies have had this shit in place for years. Canada has
CSEC ([http://www.cse-cst.gc.ca/index-eng.html](http://www.cse-
cst.gc.ca/index-eng.html)). ECHELON has been around since the cold war
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON)).
France has internet monitoring. So does Australia.
In case you haven't noticed, none of the nonsense around constitutions, human
rights, legal decrees and such really matters. They're just guidelines, and
how we interpret the words can and does change every damn day. The same law
that upheld segregation is the same law that maintains that it is
unconstitutional. It's all just interpretation.
Get enough people to agree with your interpretation, and you can justify
anything. Good luck fighting against that.
~~~
jlgreco
The apathy of the otherwise good is a scourge seen across all of human
history. Knock yourself out, I hope you enjoy it.
------
ryguytilidie
One of the things I don't really understand about the way laws work here in
the US is when something like this happens. We will declare something
unconstitutional and then its like "okay lets form a committee to make sure it
doesn't happen again...whats that you say? What the NSA is doing is secret and
we can't monitor it? Okay, well then just go on with what you're doing, I
assume you're following the constitution now"
I mean, I feel like following the constitution is probably the most important
thing we can encourage, and its basically like "meh, lets hope they stop
violating the constitution". I simply do not get it. Priority #1 should be
making sure that the NSA is following the constitution. There is 0 point in
fighting foreign wars or anything like that until this is fixed. The NSA's
budget should be reduced to 0 until there is 100% proof this has stopped.
~~~
Cowen
There's nothing in the US legal code that creates consequences for disobeying
the judicial branch's judgement.
Obeying them is a strong suggestion, and disobeying could conceivably be used
as evidence in an impeachment trial, but that's about it.
This isn't a new issue either. It's over 150 years old. Andrew Jackson didn't
even get a slap on the wrist for not enforcing the Supreme Court's ruling in
Worcester v. Georgia.
~~~
saraid216
> This isn't a new issue either.
Actually, it's one of the fundamental checks and balances. The judiciary has
no executive power. The reason a conviction in court sucks for the defendant
is because the _executive branch_ actors enforce that conviction by taking the
convict to jail.
~~~
javajosh
Ultimate authority rests with the executive because they have the guns.
~~~
saraid216
The executive has the guns because _that 's how it was designed_.
------
ck2
The saddest part is not a single candidate from either major party is going to
reject this a couple years from now.
They might even take it a step further with drones.
_you have to know everything in order to be completely safe_
- Erich Mielke, head of the Stasi, East Germany
~~~
jacoblyles
The Pauls, and other reps supported by Campaign for Liberty (Justin Amash).
~~~
cantankerous
And most hard line, true progressives. I think many folks have a hard time
stomaching the Pauls and their cohorts on a variety of other issues.
Unfortunate for the Pauls (and Amash), but true.
That said this is a good opportunity for both ends of the spectrum to work
together.
~~~
jacoblyles
Enough people can stomach them in their districts to elect them.
Progressives would turn a lot of stomachs off the blue coastal areas. This
site has an overrepresentation from California and Europe, which skews our
perception.
------
pdubs
It's not as malicious as Ron makes it out to be.
Here's Groklaw's bit on it:
[http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20130610101148583](http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20130610101148583)
>The opinion Movant seeks cannot be released by the Government not only
because it is classified but also because it is under this Court’s seal. As
Judge Bates has explained, “[t]he FISC is a unique court,” whereas “[o]ther
courts operate primarily in public, with secrecy the exception; the FISC
operates primarily in secret, with public access the exception.” In re
Release, 526 F. Supp. 2d at 487-88. The FISC maintains this operational
secrecy because, unlike any other court, its “entire docket relates to the
collection of foreign intelligence by the federal government.” Id. at 487.
It's secret simply by the nature of the court, not by specific executive
instruction.
~~~
wavefunction
The court is not secret, nor are its decisions intended to be permanently
secret.
The idea behind seeking temporarily secret court-orders was that they would
effect ongoing investigations, but that the court-orders would become public
when the charges were brought.
An example is obtaining a wire-tap order for an individual. If it were
automatically public, the individual might be watching the public record and
see that they were being wire-tapped and make the wire-tap meaningless.
Now we have a situation where the decisions remain in secret for perpetuity?
It's simple bullshit and an attempt to "route around" the Constitutional
protections.
~~~
nikcub
The broader metadata requests had a declassification date of 2038 - they must
have argued that it isn't tied to any one case, and that it could _always_
threaten an ongoing case if made public.
It is interesting that yet again we end up in a preposterous situation, where
you can suck in all call data and not tell anyone, due to a long chain of
small concessions (patriot act, fisa review, 'business records' condition,
etc.)
------
beefman
This looks like blogspam to me
[https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/government-says-
secret...](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/government-says-secret-court-
opinion-law-underlying-prism-program-needs-stay)
~~~
lisper
FWIW, I didn't submit this item.
------
ck2
Joe Biden (2006) _I don 't have to listen to your phone calls to know what
you're doing. If I know every single phone call you made, I'm able to
determine every single person you talked to; I can get a pattern about your
life that is very, very intrusive._
Video:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5863823](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5863823)
------
jacoblyles
If the Supreme Court makes a ruling and nobody follows it, does it really have
any power?
If the legislature makes 10% as many rules as the executive, who really
legislates?
If branches of the executive insist on their "independence" from elected
officials, is the US really a Democratic Republic?
What kind of country do we live in, really?
[http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-05-24/opinions/39495...](http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-05-24/opinions/39495251_1_federal-
agencies-federal-government-fourth-branch)
------
pattisapu
Nothing in the filing cited here even implies that any court found anything
unconstitutional whatsoever.
This seems to be an instance of the old "telephone game" of blogs citing other
blogs, in an admittedly emotional issue, although as far as I can tell the
actual court activity here involves the rather technical issue of unsealing
court records, not the merits of any constitutional matters.
------
pvnick
Wonderful, just more ammunition to use on my Restore the Fourth rally event
page
~~~
bmelton
Link?
~~~
mtgx
[http://www.reddit.com/r/restorethefourth](http://www.reddit.com/r/restorethefourth)
[http://www.reddit.com/r/rtforganizers](http://www.reddit.com/r/rtforganizers)
------
IAmAI343
The only real way I see of swinging the power back to the people is to use
encryption in all our personal communications, that includes e-mail, voice,
video. Unfortunately there is a very real possibility that the government has
access to the CA keys so that it would render any encryption useless.
However, it seems that a new type of quantum key distribution system [1] may
allow us citizens to share the keys such that not even the government may be
able to get them. I don't really know much about this but it does seem
promising. It may be the only way to ensure that only those that we choose can
see our data. I would not be surprised though if the government tried to pass
laws to make such technology illegal. Just like it tried to make military
grade encryption illegal by claiming it was a munitions weapon.[2]
[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_key_distribution](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_key_distribution)
[2]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy)
~~~
sk5t
A hostile entity owning the public CAs doesn't render "any" encryption useless
--just PKI that trusts those common CAs. We could revert to the PGP signing
parties of the 90s, or a variety of other key exchange protocols... just no
more relying on a certificate because Thawte, Verisign, or (ha!) Comodo say
it's good.
------
at-fates-hands
Obama speech from August 1, 2007:
[http://www.cfr.org/us-election-2008/obamas-speech-woodrow-
wi...](http://www.cfr.org/us-election-2008/obamas-speech-woodrow-wilson-
center/p13974)
"This Administration also puts forward a false choice between the liberties we
cherish and the security we demand. I will provide our intelligence and law
enforcement agencies with the tools they need to track and take out the
terrorists without undermining our Constitution and our freedom.
That means no more illegal wire-tapping of American citizens. No more national
security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more
tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. No more
ignoring the law when it is inconvenient. That is not who we are. And it is
not what is necessary to defeat the terrorists. The FISA court works. The
separation of powers works. Our Constitution
works. We will again set an example for the world that the law is not subject
to the whims of stubborn rulers, and that justice is not arbitrary.
This Administration acts like violating civil liberties is the way to enhance
our security. It is not. There are no short-cuts to protecting America, and
that is why the fifth part of my strategy is doing the hard and patient work
to secure a more resilient homeland."
I'm still wondering when this idea of defending the people against this type
of thing went out the window. . .
~~~
drawkbox
If there was a reason to impeach a president this might be it.
Nixon was impeached for spying on a few competitors but eerily similarly using
the FBI, CIA and IRS to spy on competitors and was statesman enough to resign.
Bill Clinton for being too good and making people pry into his personal life.
So far this trumps both combined.
Granted this is the first time technology has allowed this amount of spying
and illegal search and seizure of papers so timing would put any president
there.
I am scared at what will happen 2-3 presidents from now if the executive
branch overreach continues, the exact thing Obama was complaining about in
2008. Considering he was not for it before he became president.
------
Spooky23
What I find scary is that if the government can keep the secret rulings of the
secret court secret at will, what is the point of bypassing even the nominal
oversight that the secret court provides?
------
switch33
Ha ha, precedence. Now the other court rulings should rule with similar
rulings! :D
------
joering2
I am having very hard time seeing the difference between going door to door
just to find something, or going from computer to computer / account to
account, just in case, to find something. Sure, the meaning of transportation
changes, but just because you have a way to do something, it doesnt mean you
should do it.
Whether its door to door unreasonable search (hello first amendment), or
account to account unreasonable search, its still the same thing! And no court
in their sound mind should find it different.
------
Tangaroa
I submitted a better link yesterday:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5859658](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5859658)
It is "better", in that:
1\. It goes to the original source, not a blog post giving a five-line summary
of another blog post.
2\. It is relevant to the acts of which the NSA was recently accused
(specifically, the collection of Verizon metadata) and not about some other
vague undefined activity that the NSA has already been forced to stop doing.
3\. It discusses in detail the Constitutional issues involved and the history
of related court rulings.
4\. It is the actual US Supreme Court ruling on the subject.
------
godgod
This is a criminal government!
------
ttrreeww
Does anyone care about the constitution anymore?
~~~
godgod
Obama does. He uses it as toilet paper.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How to take reasonable measures to protect your information offline - salcar
http://on-competition.com/how-to-take-reasonable-measures-to-protect-your-information/
======
apiapi
You are right on sensitive corporations and strategic technologies. For small
startups, IMO it is too much processes that "unfocus" you on building your
product and listen to your users...
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: How to make money with a diary site? - hndb
I am running a diary site, on which users can keep their diary both private and publicly. People also comment on each others diary posts (if public). Me and a friend started this as a hobby project a couple of years ago. We have regular day jobs, so we have limited time to spend on the site. So far the google ads pay for the hosting costs, but that's about it (there are not a lot of targeted advertisments for diary posts). We would like to make a bit more money on it (we are not expecting to be able to build a real business out of it though).<p>We have started a test with premium accounts which are about 15 euro a year (about 20 dollar, not much) which gives the user some extra features such as changing the font color, size etc. Only a handful of users applied for it, a lot responded that it is too expensive (yes, the amount is for a whole year and still people say that) and that diaries should be free. There are a lot of users who dislike the idea that we would make money of the site (especially if it is their money). Also, a lot of the users are still in school/students, and can't or do not want to pay for this kind service. We are glad that a few are supporting the site, but do not expect to make a lot of money with it (the money we do get can be used for a tiny upgrade, which leaves us empty handed). My guess is that the money should not come from the users nor the ads.<p>So we are basically out of ideas, so any are welcome!<p>numbers:
- active users, that is, the amount of users that logged in this month (20 days so far): 1152
- traffic: 2500 visits a day, of which 56% is direct, 28% is search engines, and the bulk of the rest is from emails send by the application (users get notified of comments etc. if they indicated that they want that) if I read my Analytics account properly
======
byoung2
_My guess is that the money should not come from the users nor the ads_
Then where could the money possibly come from? Twitter struggled with this in
the beginning, and one idea they tossed around was charging outside companies
for analytics. It doesn't sound like you have enough traffic for that. You may
have a site that is just not monetizable.
~~~
hndb
It would probably have to be an idea to add value for a business (since the
normal ads and user won't bring in the real money). Maybe you are right about
the monetizable, Hacker News was kind of my last hope to get to that idea. :)
------
tocomment
How about affiliate links? For example if a user links to a page on Amazon,
you add your affiliate id into the link?
~~~
hndb
Thanks for the idea. Users almost always write about their day or write some
opinianated stuff. They don't really link to products, so I don't think it
will earn us much. But it could be an easy to create addition, so why not...
------
captaincrunch
Is this a real site, or a, I missing the URL somewhere?
~~~
hndb
The site is indeed real and has been for a couple of years. Don't want to show
it right now (or want the site's users find this post), sorry.
------
terra_t
how's this different from livejournal?
~~~
hndb
Probably not that different, although I don't know it that well.
~~~
terra_t
You should. Livejournal has been run by an excellent team for years and
they've perpetually struggled with this.
One of the big problems of "Web 2.0" is that web communities lead to high user
engagement, which leads to two things: (i) low click through on ads, (ii)
self-selection of an audience that's got a lot of time but no $$$.
The result is that you can bust your butt to build a community with, say, 40k
users, and still be struggling to pay for $800/month server costs, never mind
getting paid yourself for the butt-busting.
I've got an answer to this, sort of a way to make a "community" site without
actually having a community, but that's a card I hold close to my chest.
~~~
hndb
Indeed, it is extremely hard. Advertisements seem like the only way to get
money from this kind of sites, but pay very little. Good luck with your 'card'
and thanks for your comment.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Apple Store down globally: iPad pre-orders only or something more? - whyleym
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/12/apple-store-down-globally-ipad-pre-orders-only-or-something-mor/
======
ojbyrne
One thing I wonder - it seems like poor practice to take down the site just to
add a new product. Seems like they could do better. On the other hand it could
just be part of the hype cycle.
~~~
jonknee
I can see it for updating products--they don't want anyone with the product in
their cart to get a surprise when it's updated. But yea, just for allowing
pre-orders for a product it seems odd to require a take down.
------
antidaily
iPad pre-orders and nothing else.
------
threepointone
they finally updated the apple.com header and added a new section, 'iPad'.
------
elblanco
They must have tied their store to Ubisoft's DRM servers.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
ISIS Gives Us No Choice but to Consider Limits on Speech - patcheudor
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/view_from_chicago/2015/12/isis_s_online_radicalization_efforts_present_an_unprecedented_danger.single.html
======
bediger4000
Why should I be punished for what someone else (ISIS) might be doing, or might
have done? That's bullshit. You're using claims of another human's misbehavior
to punish the wrong people. Fuck you.
~~~
patcheudor
On the surface it's a horrible proposal with massive free speech and technical
implementation implications. In fact, the first thing I thought of was:
"ISISrolling" where people are tricked into visiting ISIS websites in iFrames
and what-not in order to set them up for a visit by the police. However, as I
thought about it more something struck me. We already have such laws on the
books for child pornography.
~~~
jgeorge
Oh, I hesitate to get into this discussion but... :-)
Almost by definition though child pornography requires the exploitation of
someone who can't consent to it - that's really the crux of the illegal part
(the non-consentuality), not the pornography part. Once the participants are
of consentual age, the pornography part is completely legal.
[Yes, I know there are issues surrounding drawn/animated images of children,
and of-age adults portraying themselves as children, but the point I'm trying
to make is geared toward the free speech issues WRT ISIS and not the flaming
hairball that is pornography law.]
What bothers me most about this article is the completely serious tone in
which Slate decides that we're so afraid of a foreign enemy attacking us that
it's only natural for us to seriously consider dismantling the very foundation
of what these enemies hate about us. Think ISIS is a big supporter of free
expression? Of course not. Think that governmental limitation of freedom of
speech, assembly, religion, etc., is something that ISIS would like to have in
their own little Sharia world? They do indeed, and demonstrate that interest
often and in brutally medieval ways.
The answer to "our enemy hates us because of the freedoms we have" is NOT
"...so we should give up those freedoms", the answer is that we should
exercise those freedoms MORE. Free speech? Tell the world what you think of
ISIS. Why hide it? Religious freedom? Pick a deity and pray to one, just for
the heck of it. Pick a different one every week, not because you believe in
anything those deities stand for, but because you can do so without
persecution. Make macaroni art of Buddha, invite Robert Mappelthorpe to
fingerpaint Jesus on the side of your home. Go nuts. Do it because you CAN,
and because ISIS doesn't WANT you to.
Why we feel the need to placate ISIS is beyond me - what do they stand for
that makes so many of us collectively want to prostrate ourselves in front of
them, so as to not hurt their feelings?
If they attack us, but we've been sensitive to their beliefs and have given up
chunks of our own freedoms to try to placate them, what do you think will
happen? Maybe they'll let us all off by only killing us a little bit?
I really hope Slate is trolling us all and will laugh at people like me who
take them seriously - enough of the "news" nowadays is some sort of trolling
that it may actually be the case. But judging from Slate's typical slant, I
don't think they're trolling.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Numerical Recipes in C - helwr
http://www.nrbook.com/a/bookcpdf.php
======
alextgordon
I thought this bit of the license was hilariously draconian:
You can type the programs from this book directly into your
computer. In this case, the only kind of license available to
you is the free “immediate license” (see below). You are not
authorized to transfer or distribute a machine-readable copy to
any other person, >> nor to have any other person type the
programs into a computer on your behalf <<.
Do I also have to shield my screen to make sure no one else can see the
programs I've typed? :)
~~~
hga
Well, in all fairness that's the no muss no fuss you don't have to pay extra
to get softcopy from them license. Hardly the end of the world if your're
something is limiting you to that.
For that matter, the subtle errors you're likely to introduce into the code
gives them a strong reason to require you to keep it to yourself.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How To Not Fit In On A Development Team - scribblewiki
http://blog.james-carr.org/2008/08/18/how-to-not-fit-in-on-a-development-team/
======
mick_m
Hm, sounds like a whole lot stupid guys are throwing a popularity contest.
Remind me not to apply for a job with carr's team.
~~~
shard
The way I see it, Carr is saying that being a prima donna on a team is a bad
thing. Do you disagree with that?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Benchmarking AWS, DigitalOcean, Linode, Packet, and Vultr - raiyu
https://goldfirestudios.com/blog/150/Benchmarking-AWS-DigitalOcean-Linode-Packet-and-Vultr
======
wcarron
This is great to see. I love DigitalOcean and they've really stepped up their
game wrt. product offerings.
But I was surprised at how DO beat AWS EC2 in most but not all of the tests.
Their performance is impressive considering that they're not on the same scale
as AWS, Azure or GCP
~~~
pram
EC2 (EBS in particular) has always had lackluster performance from my
experience, compared to the alternatives. To be honest though, relative
performance has never been a factor or even a consideration in most of the
places I've worked at.
I'm not saying that to minimize the issue either, it's just that enterprise
users/management simply don't care.
------
Sohcahtoa82
I used to use DO, but switched off after they decided to disconnect my droplet
for 3 hours when it got DDoS'd. It didn't matter that my node was able to
handle the traffic. I was only using it for a Mumble VOIP server and an IRC
bouncer, so it's not like I was going to lose money by having some business
going offline, but still frustrating and enough to decide that should I ever
need to run an actual business, I definitely won't use DO for it.
------
notacoward
I did a similar set of benchmarks, except with a bit more of a focus on
storage performance, several years ago. Even included the results in a
presentation at LISA. The most striking thing at the time was not so much the
averages but the _variability_. IIRC Amazon was particularly bad in that
regard, and Vultr particularly good (so kudos to them), but Digital Ocean's
advantage in raw performance was so big that it still won out. Looks like not
much has changed.
------
MotiveMe
I think the AWS failures on iops tests should've been examined more prior to
publication, or at least explained more to the reader.
AWS General Purpose EBS volumes scale based on volume size, so a purely
naively-done test with a default AMI's performance could be as low as 24 iops
(8GB*3 IOPS per GB) once exhausting it's burst iops quota. I think it's unfair
to compare apples to oranges here, as you can make these volumes scale to
absurd numbers, if you have the cash.
~~~
nodesocket
Agree need to use 1TB EBS volume (the smallest volume that removes bursting
limits) and an EBS optimized and enhanced networking instance to be accurate.
I'll be the first to admit that AWS has a serious problem with
overcomplicating things though. You really shouldn't have all these different
options and gotchas.
------
ac29
Linode, who didn't fair all that well in this test (though was the cheapest)
actually does offer a dedicated CPU option as of recently:
[https://blog.linode.com/2019/02/05/introducing-linode-
dedica...](https://blog.linode.com/2019/02/05/introducing-linode-dedicated-
cpu-instances/)
Curious how much of a difference it would make.
------
SkyLinx
I have tried/used the providers mentioned and others, and am now with UpCloud
which really has great performance, better than Do etc for what I have seen.
Only thing is that they don't offer much more than just servers yet.
------
colvasaur
> The virtualized nature of cloud hosting makes benchmarking over a period of
> time vital to getting the full picture.
It's so nice to see a benchmark of VPSs that takes this into account.
~~~
vegardx
Seems kind of pointless if there's going to be a single data point from all
providers. That doesn't account for noisy neighbours and other issues.
------
deedubaya
I love DO, but man in practice the CPU performance of their machines have been
horrible in my experience. Like 2-3x worse than the same $ spend on ec2.
------
karmakaze
Rubbish. Why is there even a section describing its methodology when it's
comparing $40 and $50 instances against $20 ones? I can see why they might
compare the $62 EC2 instances against other vendors' cheaper ones as that is
the point of their investigation, but the challengers should be on a level
playing field. Seems to me that they wanted DO to 'win'.
~~~
james33
If you would read the paragraph directly after the list of instances tested
you would see this was directly addressed. This test wasn't meant to mislead
and was simply exploring the best options for us. This isn't the same for
everyone, which is why we open-sourced the tool we made so that you can run
your own tests as well.
~~~
karmakaze
> Even though neither Linode nor Vultr offer a CPU optimized tier, we wanted
> to test the options we would actually be using if we went with each
> provider.
This is the part that doesn't make sense. They basically chose one type from
each vendor, _before_ benchmarking. If there are clearly instance types at
twice the cost and still lower than types from other vendors, the results were
stacked. How can you see this any other way?
------
ksec
Missing 2018 in the Title.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Google's AdBlockPlus deal will save them nearly $1bn per year - seanblanchfield
http://blog.pagefair.com/2013/acceptable-ads-soothe-google-pain/?cmp=17
======
joosters
Does anyone have any good data on the prevalence of ad blocking? The headline
number in this article ($887 million) is a _pure guess_ , based on an estimate
of 10% of users using ad blocking. They provide absolutely no evidence or
reasoning behind this guess. End result: All of their attention-grabbing
numbers are pure conjecture and speculation.
There must be users on here who run some high volume sites who can share what
% of ads are blocked, surely?
(edit: the linked [http://blog.pagefair.com/2013/destructoid-not-
alone/](http://blog.pagefair.com/2013/destructoid-not-alone/) does give more
background into some sample sites and adblocking %s, but more numbers and real
world data would be good)
~~~
seanblanchfield
We're using 10% as a very conservative estimate actually. We've been measuring
adblock data for 9 months now across several hundred sites, many of which are
very large. The current average blockrate across all these publishers is
26.1%. These are the guys who are so acutely affected that they signed up to
us in the first place, but it gives you a good idea.
A fair estimate of a minimum value is the block rate on sites that are non-
techie, e.g., lifestyle (12% blockrate) and news (16% blockrate).
We'll be doing another post soon revealing all these numbers and our
methodology in collecting them in detail.
~~~
joosters
Good point about the rate varying a lot based on the audience - I imagine that
tech sites have it worst for blocking rates.
I wonder how the rates vary for tablet/mobile viewing? I'd guess fewer users
manage to block ads on these devices?
~~~
seanblanchfield
Oh, and blocking rates on mobile/tablet is very low, probably consisting of
ISP-level adblocking. That will shortly change though - the adblock community
is hard at work creating mobile versions.
------
lynchdt
The first paragraph of the "recent study" you linked.
"In a poll commissioned by the Digital Advertising Alliance (DAA), 92 percent
of 1,000 Americans surveyed agreed that free news, weather, email, blogs and
video content was either somewhat or extremely important to the overall value
of the Internet."
What kind of category is "somewhat or extremely important" and how is 1000
people of undisclosed circumstances (other than being American) representative
of people that use the internet?
The study that is linked from "the majority are not bothered by the static,
non-intrusive ads" asks users of Mechanical Turk to look at an ad and rate it
on its "annoyingness". Each user was paid 25 cents flat, and 2 cents per ad to
a 172 ad maximum - so there's a $3.75 incentive maximum on completing the test
will ratings on everything.
How annoying is any ad that you are being paid to stare at? That's missing the
point completely.
I don't buy this sentiment that ad-blocking will be the end of the internet.
Continued innovation on payment models, and content worth paying for is what
we really need.
~~~
dwild
Content worth paying is what we really need? Then why we don't have it
currently? As far as I know, nothing stop that kind of content to appear...
However blocking ad stop good free content to appear (maybe not much, but it
still affected, unlike the type of content you want).
------
DanBC
> _“Less than 10 percent of the people polled would prefer an ad-free Internet
> where users paid to access blogs, entertainment sites, videos and social
> media sites, while 75 percent surveyed said they prefer the existing
> Internet model where most content is free, but includes ads.”_ – Amy
> Gesenhues – Marketing Land
Marketer says people prefer marketing?
------
downandout
Makes you wonder how much AdBlockPlus is making from their deal to unblock
them. I would have asked for at least $200 million per year. It's amazing that
this isn't considered extortion, but since it's not, I think it would make
sense for some of the less popular ad blockers to join together and offer a
similar deal.
------
3327
I believe this is what you find under the definition of "selling out" in a
dictionary.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Vx32: portable, efficient, safe execution of untrusted x86 code - ingve
https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/~baford/vm/
======
comex
Fairly similar to Native Client [1], whose originally paper was released the
next year (2009): they both rely on x86 segment registers, for example. A core
difference is in how they guarantee that the guest instruction stream contains
no dangerous instructions such as system calls - which is hard, because x86
instructions are variable-length and unaligned, so you have to avoid the
situation where the guest code jumps to an address which is in the middle of
some legitimate-looking instruction, and the processor interprets the bytes
starting there as a different instruction. Direct jumps can be validated ahead
of time, but indirect jumps can't - including all function returns. Native
Client prevents this by requiring the sandboxed code to be compiled with
compiler passes that align all valid targets of indirect branches to a given
alignment, and insert mask instructions before indirect branches themselves;
then it validates that no instruction streams starting at any aligned offset
do anything dangerous. Vx32, on the other hand, wants to be able to run semi-
arbitrary existing x86 code, so it has to address this with a layer of
indirection. Rather than just validating instructions, it translates each
basic block to a modified set of instructions - essentially an x86-to-x86
emulator. Indirect jumps are translated to a hash table lookup (mapping
original code addresses to their corresponding translated versions), which
achieves safety at the cost of significant slowdown in some cases.
[1]
[http://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.co...](http://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.com/en//pubs/archive/34913.pdf)
~~~
userbinator
_such as system calls_
This sounds like something the CPU hardware should be handling, as x86 has 4
privilege levels ("ring 0 through "ring 3") while most OSes today only use 0
and 3. 3 could become "really untrusted" while what used to be in 3 moves to
2.
~~~
johncolanduoni
There are some problems with that that have arisen due to the long disuse of
the other privilege levels:
1\. The fast methods for system calls (syscall/sysret/sysenter/sysleave)
completely ignore these privilege levels and can only perform transitions
between 0 and 3. That means you have to use interrupts which are slow, and may
be even slower than 0/3 interrupt transitions because the processors aren't
used to dealing with them.
2\. You can't make much use of them for x86_64 programs, since these disable
segment based protection and the x86_64 page tables (you guessed it) only have
a single bit to select privilege level of a page. Somebody that remembers the
Intel manuals better can hopefully inform us if you can use them in x86
compatibility mode under a 64-bit kernel, but I'm going to guess you'll have
some wrinkles here.
I would be very surprised if these two issues don't kill any performance gains
you would get from avoiding the recompilation step.
~~~
bonzini
All x86 page tables have a single bit for page tables, not just 64-bit ones.
------
majke
People don't understand that vx32 allows you to implement scheduler in
userspace. It's not 1-to-1 mapping between host process and guest process
(like NaCL for example).
With vx32 you can have many-guest "processes" in one host process.
This is totally unique.
~~~
4ad
In fact Russ Cox (the author of vx32) has ported the Plan 9 kernel to vx32, so
you can run a whole Plan 9 instance under Linux or what have you.
------
et1337
My friend and I have a crazy idea that in the future, all songs will be binary
executable code running in a sandbox similar to Vx32 or NaCl. This would allow
you to edit parameters and change the song to fit the rest of your playlist.
The next step is to keep the binary locked away on a server and stream only
the resulting audio to the client, and suddenly you have a major piracy
disincentive.
~~~
catern
Maybe I don't understand. Is this a joke? Is it not already perfectly possible
to edit a song and make it fit your playlist? And how would streaming the
audio from a binary be a disincentive for piracy, except inasmuch as on-demand
streaming is more convenient than piracy?
~~~
et1337
Sure you can edit a finished, mixed song, but it takes a lot of skill, and
realistically no one's going to do it without stems. If a song is an
executable, it can expose user-friendly adjustable parameters. So one song
could have infinite variations. A pirate could record one of those variations
and share it, but that's much less valuable than the executable / stems.
~~~
wallacoloo
What kind of adjustable parameters? I'll admit I'm intrigued by the prospect
of songs that vary _slightly_ on each play-through (e.g. slightly different
drum fills, different solos, etc), but I suspect this is distinct from what
you're suggesting.
I'm also of the belief that piracy of digital arts is largely a cultural thing
& that attempts to prevent it by force will never be more than marginally
successful at best. That said, I have zero evidence to back it up. It's
something I'd like to investigate, but I don't know how.
~~~
jack1243star
An example would be dynamic soundtracks in games, which can change during
gameplay. (New Doom, FTL, etc.)
------
johncolanduoni
What is the difference between this and, say, qemu's user mode emulation? IIRC
qemu (for both system and user emulation) uses Tiny Code Generator in a
similar manner when not using hardware virtualization.
Is it just a different API geared towards a different purpose, or are there
significant differences in the implementation (e.g. a greater focus on
security)?
~~~
ris
QEmu's user mode emulation is not sandboxed AFAIK and can't run in-process (of
the controlling process).
------
mankash666
How does this compare to Google's Nacl/Pnacl
~~~
Lerc
I made a wrapper for a NPAPI plugin for it back in the day.
Back then I was trying to make a decent performing system out of the XO-1.
Flash performance on the XO-1 was terrible so sandboxed in-browser native
seemed quite appealing.
This video shows some of the things I was working on at the time.
[https://youtu.be/58UmxHryq8E?t=157](https://youtu.be/58UmxHryq8E?t=157) The
time offset jumps to the VX32 part.
------
SixSigma
if you didn't notice, plan9 was ported to run under this : 9vx [1]
which you might find in your Linux package manager, e.g. AUR on Arch [2]
[1] [https://swtch.com/9vx/](https://swtch.com/9vx/)
[2]
[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/9vx](https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/9vx)
~~~
yiyus
That port of Plan9 is quite old and will not work with the newest sources. It
has received may updates since them. I added a good bunch of features as part
of a GSoC project.
Nowadays, it is being maintained by David du Colombier at github:
[https://github.com/0intro/vx32](https://github.com/0intro/vx32)
~~~
SixSigma
I still use "the blacksmith eats with a wooden spoon"
------
lightedman
I've had this for over two decades.
It's called a laptop I don't mind reformatting.
~~~
geofft
How do you tell whether you need to reformat it?
~~~
lightedman
You give it an internal VLAN and watch for the malware trying to use it
(assuming you disabled your physical network card on-system first before
executing the code.)
It's a system set up to act like it's got internet connections, but it does
not. You use sneakernet to transfer files.
~~~
geofft
What if the malware generates files that infect other machines?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
An Account of the Russian Revolution - Pete-Codes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cqbleas1mmo
======
Pete-Codes
The channel is also Oversimplified - it's actually incredibly detailed.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
SoundCord - Ruby GEM - lukastm
https://github.com/lukasalexandre/soundcord
======
rodrigoavie
Cool aid.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Why Geeks Should Care About Sports - shakes
http://blog.rickyrobinett.com/2012/12/why-geeks-should-care-about-sports/
======
illumin8
The argument seems to mainly be: Sports are unpredictable, code is always
predictable, so try to make your apps have the excitement of unpredictable
experiences. Also, there is a lot of money in sports.
No thanks. I believe designers should strive for predictable experiences when
it comes to product design. Unpredictability is the #1 reason why I get those
evening phone calls from my 84 year old father-in-law who just saw a new
message on his computer and doesn't know what to do...
Regarding the money aspect: Those of us that don't really like sports think it
is pretty appalling that so much money is spent on mindless entertainment. In
so many Texas towns young boys are being told they will never be men unless
they play full contact football and sustain debilitating head injuries at an
extremely young age. They spend their entire school life being forced by their
parents to try and attain some unattainable dream of being a professional
athlete, and being deprived of a good education and a healthy life.
Is this not a shame that our society places so much value on sports that we
would destroy our kids lives to try and live our dreams through them? I choose
not to contribute my money and energy to sports because there are many other
things in this world that are much more deserving of my time.
~~~
arethuza
I've only become interested in team sports since my son started playing rugby
at his school nere in the UK and actually I've been rather impressed at the
positive impact it can have - he's learned a lot about self-discipline,
confidence and teamwork that has definitely helped with his academic work.
So I've actually completely changed my views of what team sports can do - at
the moment my son believes he can go to Harvard _and_ play rugby for Scotland,
both of are _his_ ideas, why would I want to stop him? Indeed, the QC that my
wife trained with as a devil _did_ play for Scotland - so crazy career
combinations are certainly possible!
~~~
illumin8
I appreciate this perspective and may change my mind when my son gets older. I
would still stay away from contact sports if possible, but some sports like
tennis, soccer, and baseball could be very rewarding.
~~~
arethuza
Rugby in the UK has a rather odd relationship with elite education:
"Football is a gentleman's game played by ruffians, and rugby is a ruffian's
game played by gentlemen."
NB I've seen a few rugby 7s games and they are _awesome_ \- even more athletic
than normal rugby matches:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_sevens>
------
redwood
While I am not a big sports fan (except for one particular sport) I want to
chime on on what I _thought_ this article would be about, but wasn't:
Sports are valuable to know about, because so many peers, especially in other
functions, value them. It's not that you need to even devote time to sports,
or to know _anything_. It's that posturing that shows you _respect_ others'
interests in sports, is valuable.
In fact this applies to any set of interets, however mainstream, nerdy, alpha,
or etc: whether sports, videogames, brewing, or bee-keeping. _Always_ show
interest and genuine respect for others' interests, instead of dismissing
them.
I'll never forget a guy in high school who overheard me talking about a
computer game... he said "Oh... you're still playing games? I stopped in
middle school!". I've thought of him as an ass hole ever since. And it wasn't
that he didn't play games (or enjoy sports, or etc): it was that he was
arrogant and dismissive of my interest and put me down indirectly as a result.
Never be arrogant and dismissive of others' interests: show appreciation and
respect... sometimes it helps to just genuinely look for what others enjoy. If
you can't find it: pretend! You'll find enormous benefit in terms of how much
others like you as a result: and this is important in any group. Especially
for something as massively popular as sports, don't fall into the trap.
~~~
rayiner
Yes! Especially if you're the enterprising type, being able to relate to
people's interest, and sports is a common interest, is an extremely useful
life skill.
I'm not a huge sports fan, but I've picked a lot up by osmosis since I did ACC
UG/Big 10 grad school. I can't tell you how often an interviewer has lightened
up and become more engaged after I brought up his alma mater's football team.
It's not just for show. It's social lubricant. It allows you to feel each
other out while talking about a relatively neutral topic that neither of you
have a big investment into, to cut down the tension involved in talking about
the business discussion at hand.
~~~
redwood
Spot on: in fact you bring up another great point... local knowledge is a
wonderful thing to share and when someone feels you know something about their
special place, they're always impressed!
The film Lincoln did a good job of showing old Abe doing that quite a bit in
order to gain favor :)
------
crazygringo
I've tried to get into watching sports for years, because it's something extra
to have in common with people, and I really wish I could share it.
But now, at 32, having tried probably about 10 times, I realize I just can't.
I just don't _care_. I care about politics, about music, about urban design,
about architecture, about so many things that clearly have meaning and affect
people's lives in real ways.
But when I watch two teams of people I don't personally know kick a ball
around... I simply couldn't care less. Absolutely nothing whatsoever hinges on
it. There's no meaning in it. And to this day, asking all my sports-obsessed
friends why they like it so much, I've never gotten an answer I can actually
understand or identify with. (The Onion T-shirt "the sports team from my area
is superior to the sports team from your area" pretty much sums up the extent
to which I understand it.)
And BTW, my code acts unpredictably often enough already, without my trying to
make it so ;)
~~~
cobrausn
You imply architecture and music have meaning and affect people's lives in
real ways, yet sports do not. Do I really have to point out what's wrong with
this statement? Not to mention it sounds incredibly pretentious.
I say this as someone who doesn't really follow sports (maybe in the playoffs
or post-season), but can recognize it's impact on culture.
~~~
fiblye
I think a fair difference between music/architecture and sports is the
relative permanence of the former. An individual structure will be studied
4000 years from now and tell us how an entire culture thrived. Music from the
1700s is still enjoyed today. Most sports games have no lasting effects beyond
a week, and when we actually do study ancient sports, we study ancient art and
architecture to learn how it was played; individual games within that sport
usually have little relevance unless they involve royalty or politics.
It's certainly an important aspect of our culture, but it has a much smaller
role than music and architecture. Everybody knows the Empire State Building
and Beethoven, but most people don't know who won last week's football game
and by what margin.
~~~
cobrausn
An individual game will typically have no permanence to it, but the nature of
the game can last a lot longer. In many cases, the games we are playing today
originate from older versions that pre-date the 1700s, so if 'permanence' is
your qualification for cultural relevance, then sports seem to have as much
(if not more) relevance than music.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseball#Origins_of_baseball>
~~~
yen223
Not to mention the Olympics =)
------
Swizec
> Sports are the exact opposite, they are almost completely unpredictable.
No they are not. Sports are very predictable, but they are a stochastic
process. You simply have to use a different way to reason about them.
A lot or programmers deal with stochastic processes as well and we have plenty
of tools at our disposal that make us able of reasoning about even the most
random seeming stuff. Case in point: software that predicts how many cash
registers a store might need to never have a single person waiting for more
than 3 minutes, while keeping costs at an optimum.
Good movie on this subject: Moneyball
~~~
mcos
If you've seen the movie, I'd highly recommend "Moneyball" the book too. It
goes into a lot of great detail that the movie doesn't deal with.
------
brnstz
I don't "get" sports, in that I'm incapable of forming the emotional
attachment to a team that seems so prevalent. (And as I type that, I wonder,
maybe I'm saying more about myself than I am about sports . . )
I don't get it. If you grew up in Queens, you're a Mets fan. If you grew up in
Philly, you're a Phillies fan. From my perspective, these people are exactly
the same, except they are wearing different colors. Yet they are supposed to
hate each other, and spend a large amount of time rationalizing their hate.
There are hours upon hours of sports talk (gossip) radio on every day in every
major city.
I've tried. There is a special place in my heart for the Baltimore Orioles. As
a kid, I liked Cal Ripken because he had consistent stats (talk about nerdy),
and later I lived in Baltimore. I'm trying to like the Brooklyn Nets, because
their stadium is a few subway stops from me.
But I'm always on the metaphorical sidelines when it comes to fandom. The
suspense can be fun, but at the end of the day, it's just a game to me.
One perfect example: A few years ago, the Philadelphia Eagles hired a
quarterback who spent time in jail for abusing dogs (Michael Vick). Despite
having grown up in Philadelphia, I immediately ceased rooting for that team.
It was the easiest decision I ever made. Meanwhile, my Philadelphia friends
agonized over this turn of events and eventually rationalized they could still
root for the team, so long as Michael Vick made amends via
charity/volunteering. The attachment is strong. I just don't get it.
Sports teams are the most powerful brands in the world. Maybe cigarette brands
are a close second.
~~~
fratis
I love sports for precisely the reason you don't.
Generally speaking, I'm militantly rational. My rational brain is engaged in
perpetual combat with my powerful Italian-American emotions, and I feel as
though even if I win most of the battles, the war will never end.
Except in sports. I _love_ my Mets, Devils, and Giants (screw basketball) with
the heat of a thousand stars. My rational brain recognizes the utter absurdity
of it, but I simply don't care. It's fun almost _because_ it doesn't make any
sense.
In a way, being an avid, emotionally invested fan of something so
insignificant is practice for the very real emotional ups and downs inevitably
experienced in 'real' life. Sports instruct us both in how to react to
traumatizing events (in a safe, controlled environment) and in how to feel,
how to attach ourselves emotionally to _something_.
------
cbs
This isn't a justification of why geeks should be into sports, it's why people
looking for a new market should consider that domain. That's fine and all but
a bit misleading.
I follow a few sports, the one my brother is on a team for I follow quite
closely and know unnecessarily deeply. It's not like there aren't techies that
like sports, or work inside of them already to bring the goods. There are
pockets that lack the latest and greatest tech, but thats true of every
industry and doesn't make sports some untapped gold mine. They are actively
seeking tech where it will help them, and on top of that just through osmosis
from coverage, stadium presentation and post game tape review teams soak up
even more tech.
If you're looking for an industry that could uniquely benefit from an infusion
of tech, it's not sports. The sabermetrics story is a big story because the
hostility to it it was an unusual case. It was also a very narrow case that
the application of that particular bit of math was such a game-changing
development.
Oh and that thing about sports as a way of thinking about software is not only
a stretch, my experience makes it sound like pablum.
~~~
kevinpet
I was also turned off by the use of "geeks" when he really means "hustlers
looking to make a buck". Maybe they overlap, and there's especially a lot of
overlap on HN, but a market opportunity is not uniquely appealing to geeks.
------
mmcconnell1618
I'm not a big sports fan. Neither is my Dad and I'm sure that's part of the
reason why I never 'got' sports. For the longest time I wondered why so many
apparently sane people were addicted to a specific sports team or would spend
tons of money to own a jersey with their favorite player's number.
Then I learned about mirror neurons. The human brain has been shown through
functional MRI studies to 'mirror' emotions that are watched. Speculation
suggests this evolved as a way for one person to empathize with another's
situation. How does this relate to sports? It turns out that if you're
watching someone hit a home run at the crucial moment in the game your brain
gives you a little 'hit' of the same emotion that actual player is feeling. In
other words, people who love watching sports have a physical reaction that
makes them feel the highs and lows of the players.
I no longer assume that people addicted to sports are just in it for the beer.
------
dusing
There is a great business opportunity in sports. I started a digital sports
marketing company 6 years ago and we've had great success with this niche. The
marketing side of teams can be real progressive, we've built 4 SAAS apps that
and have worked with over 150 teams around the country.
I'd say the best part is although they compete on the field, they don't
consider each other competitors, so they exchange best practices constantly.
Meaning if you do something good for one team it will get out quickly. We have
hundreds of brand advocates in the space. Now when we launch a new product we
can go from 0 to 40 sales and 1/2 mil rev in 6 months.
And as it pertains to the story. Only 30% of our staff is into sports and has
a daily knowledge of players and league issues. In fact I don't follow any
sport or watch ESPN, I just enjoy going to games in person. I think our
companies objectiveness has helped is greatly.
Http://row27.com if you are curious. Our "apps" are <http://fanmaker.com> and
our news network is <http://sportsbusinessnow.com>
------
lazerwalker
> Sports are the exact opposite, they are almost completely unpredictable.
If code was almost completely predictable, we wouldn't spend so much darn time
squashing bugs. If users were predictable, we wouldn't need to spend time
prototyping or A/B testing or anything like that, we'd just build exactly what
our users wanted from the start.
If sports were almost completely unpredictable, sabermetrics wouldn't be as
large and a profitable field as it is, and we wouldn't have statisticians
working in other fields (such as everyone's favorite pundit Nate Silver) who
got their start modeling sports.
I totally appreciate the other arguments he's making about why the sports
industry presents a potentially lucrative one right now, but the point about
unpredictability seems like a nonsequitor. I'd like to think he's trying to
make an interesting and meaningful point with it, but it's not coming through
clearly at all.
------
untog
There will, I'm sure, be a lot of replies about how "I don't care about sports
and you can't make me"- which is fair enough. This stuff is very subjective.
But the point made about disruption in sports is interesting- I've seen a ton
of developers working on pick-up game organisers, and a few fantasy leagues,
but nothing more significant than that. The locked-in nature of sports
licensing makes it very difficult to 'disrupt' any sports franchise without
the consent of the owner- I suspect that will continue to be a barrier.
------
xpose2000
As someone who runs a bootstrapped sports company (focus on american sports),
I would like to add that it's very seasonal and unpredictable (in a bad way).
You never know when a lockout might occur to hurt your business. In fact,
there have been 3 lockouts in the past 4 years. NHL is STILL locked out from
Oct, with half their season gone and no deal in sight.
There are seasonal changes that impact your business. Fall/Winter are
wonderful since the NBA, NFL, and NHL are playing. NFL especially dominates in
terms of eyeballs.
You can combine all other sports and it still won't equal NFL's popularity and
how it drives user interest.
Once the NFL season ends, so does your revenue and/or traffic. In the summer,
you basically just have baseball and limp through wishing September would come
quicker.
~~~
patrickk
> You can combine all other sports and it still won't equal NFL's popularity
> and how it drives user interest.
_Cough_ soccer _cough_.
~~~
xpose2000
This is true, though I am speaking about USA sports.
------
vog
When I read the headline I thought this will be about why geeks should _do_
sports. And I'd fully agree with that.
However, it appears that this article is just about _watching_ sports. What a
disappointment.
------
mynegation
When I read the title I was totally prepared to read why geeks should exercise
more. At least two and may be even all of the arguments in the OP work even
better if you do sports yourself, as you see the world of sports from inside.
I am not against pro sports as an entertainment, but doing it yourself, as
opposed to sitting on the couch or stadium seat is so much better for your
health.
------
mbesto
Just because a team is valued at $2.2bil doesn't mean there is $2.2bil worth
of money floating around to be made. Yes, there is money to be made in Sports
& Entertainment, but that approach is misguided.
To give you a better idea. EPL clubs brought in £2.3bil last year[1] but lost
£361m. These losses are largely due to wages: _"In total, £1.5bn was spent on
wages by the 20 clubs in 2010-11 (including Birmingham's £38m wage bill in
2009‑10). That accounted for 69% of the clubs' total income, slightly up from
the 68% of income the clubs spent in 2009‑10 on wages."_ So if you can somehow
improve efficiencies for the other 31% of the costs then you could probably
make some decent money. Sports is highly irrational when it comes to business.
[1]- [http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/may/23/premier-
leagu...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/may/23/premier-league-
losses-2010-11-profits)
~~~
lmm
Why not go for the big fish: find clubs a way to cut their wage bill while
maintaining performance. There's plenty of money in that.
~~~
mbesto
Yup! Especially in the EPL where they are now in talks of adopting UEFA's
financial fair play model.[1] Without knowing enough about the intricacies of
the inefficiencies of club management and at least 70% of their costs coming
from wages (which can't be reduced by technology), I'm not sure where things
can be improved.
[1]-
[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premi...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premier-
league/9542469/Premier-League-could-adopt-Uefas-financial-fair-play-
regulations-as-early-as-the-2013-14-season.html)
------
zdw
Relevant joke image: <http://i.imgur.com/Mz08u.jpg>
Forcing people to care about domain specific knowledge that is relatively
useless outside of social ingratiation seems like a waste of time.
That said, if you're into it it very well may be the fertile ground for
innovation the OP suggests.
------
gearoidoc
The amount of money being spent in the professional arena of a sport nor the
attitude of an over-zealous parent who you've never met should not hold people
back from enjoying sports.
Those who dismiss sports as being "for jocks" are not better than those who
consider computers "for nerds".
~~~
csense
> Those who dismiss sports as being "for jocks" are not better than those who
> consider computers "for nerds".
Sports are irrelevant to living in the modern world; we can leave them to the
jocks. Computers are not; knowing how to use a cell phone or the Internet
helps enormously with many inevitable tasks of daily life.
The fact that cheap computers became possible a few decades ago means our
lifestyles are _quite different_ from before that time.
The fact that the Red team beat the Blue team in the Capture the Flag Series
Bowl Cup a few decades ago is largely irrelevant to most people -- even to
most sports fans.
~~~
gearoidoc
> Sports are irrelevant to living in the modern world
So am I not living in the modern world?
Playing (and following) sports helps improve communication, discipline,
teamwork and leadership without mentioning the obvious health benefits.
Oh and guess what? A decent sports knowledge helps enormously with connecting
with your fellow man, something I get the feeling you may have trouble with.
------
lectrick
It's definitely a market opportunity (see: the movie Moneyball), but I
wouldn't say programmers should just go into sports unless they actually love
sports (and programming). While this type of person is rare, they exist, and
it's their market to own, basically.
------
njharman
> UNPREDICTABLE
First most (interesting) code deals with exterior inputs. Typically "user"
inputs. Which means software engineering is far from as predictable as CS 101
might make you believe.
Second, sports (at least at the game level, and to some extent the player
performance level) are highly predictable. If they were not book making and
sports betting would not work.
I kind of stopped reading at that point. But, it sounded like actually theme
was "care about the sports _industry_ as it is a market" which is very much
different than care about sports.
~~~
csense
> If they were not book making and sports betting would not work.
Why not? Taking parimutuel wagers [1] is guaranteed [2] to make money.
[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parimutuel_betting>
[2] In most US jurisdictions, the organizer taking a percentage of the pot is
either illegal, or requires the organizer to pay millions for a gaming
license. Of course, you also have costs and taxes, like any other business.
Mathematically the _pool_ is guaranteed to make money as long as there's at
least one paying customer; whether the _business_ makes money is another
question. (Another path would be to operate without approval -- illegal
gambling is one of the most common forms of organized crime. It obviously has
its own set of challenges, including the possibility of jail time and physical
danger from competitors and customers. On the whole, it's not a market you
should consider entering if you value your freedom and your life.)
------
ommunist
The title reminds me the famous Winston Churchill's attitude to sports. Once
asked how he is keeping terrific mental and physical prowess in his age, he
answered "Absolutely no sports."
------
jinushaun
Sports doesn't need any extra help. They're doing just fine. There are enough
computer geeks out there that also love sports to keep the industry up-to-date
in tech. SV doesn't need to pivot to the NFL.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
8 Ways to Read (a Lot) More Books This Year - walterbell
https://hbr.org/2017/02/x8-ways-to-read-a-lot-more-books-this-year#
======
Tomte
Correct URL: [https://hbr.org/2017/02/8-ways-to-read-a-lot-more-books-
this...](https://hbr.org/2017/02/8-ways-to-read-a-lot-more-books-this-year#)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
GitHub.com font changed - dariubs
https://github.com/github
======
rvern
One of the most useful options in Firefox is the checkbox "Allow pages to
choose their own fonts, instead of my selections above"[1], also available as
browser.display.use_document_fonts in about:config. When this is unchecked,
Firefox will ignore all fonts specified by web pages and just use the much-
more-likely-to-be-reasonable choice of default font you have made; and you can
then disable web fonts, which will make pages load faster.
I don't think allowing websites to use specific font names in CSS was ever a
good idea. It would have been better to limit them to predefined family names,
which would map to fonts the user could customize. In any case, this allows me
not to care about the whims of website designers and to always have text in a
readable font. Only one issue: one of the unfortunate trends in web design is
to use web fonts for icons. Not allowing websites to specify different fonts
from the default also happens to break the icons. This isn't enough of a big
deal for me to disable the option, but it's an annoyance worth knowing about.
[1]: [https://clbin.com/bFSlHF.png](https://clbin.com/bFSlHF.png)
~~~
flukus
What happens when sites are using font's for images?
~~~
ori_b
Then it breaks. I can deal with that -- there aren't very many sites that
decide to abuse fonts that way, in any case.
And who knows, maybe one day SVG will actually reliably render correctly in
browsers, and people will use images when they want to display images
~~~
err4nt
The problem isnt so much SVG rendering, its that you can grab an icon font
with 400 icons that look great, its easy to add them to places beside text,
like in menus or on buttons.
You can use SVG, but there is no CDN-hosted SVG sprite with 400 icons to
replace things like FontAwesome or Ionicons, so you would have to find all the
SVGs you wanted. Then you have the challenge of getting them the right size
and position beside text in very tight spaces.
~~~
ori_b
You mean like this: [https://css-tricks.com/svg-sprites-use-better-icon-
fonts/](https://css-tricks.com/svg-sprites-use-better-icon-fonts/)?
~~~
flukus
Are there any frameworks like bootstrap that include SVGs?
------
mastax
apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Fira Sans", "Droid Sans", "Helvetica Neue", Arial, sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"
Helvetica, arial, nimbussansl, liberationsans, freesans, clean, sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol"
sans-serif
Seems like they're just trying to use whatever decent sans-serif font is
available.
------
r24y
Viewing it on OS X, it looks like they're using the San Francisco font. A
little jarring if you're used to seeing the old typeface 20+ times/day, but it
looks good.
Fortunately, the transition seems to have gone a bit better than Medium's:
[https://medium.com/design/system-
shock-6b1dc6d6596f#.j5z5g5g...](https://medium.com/design/system-
shock-6b1dc6d6596f#.j5z5g5gy6)
~~~
toomanybeersies
You would think that a site as large as Medium would think of actually testing
their site on Windows before deploying.
------
f1lt3r
HORRAY! You can use a Chrome extension to put the font back :)
[https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/the-old-github-
fon...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/the-old-github-
font/gklibcblhkjlfhfelnbelngjciflknhp/related)
[https://github.com/rreusser/the-old-github-
font](https://github.com/rreusser/the-old-github-font)
------
gnuvince
Goddamn, I hate Roboto, it is way too fat by default.
~~~
mayhew
The Bold Roboto [1] just looks awful on my machine. Arial [2] looked much
better, and if they want to use the system font, Ubuntu [3] also looks much
better.
[1] [http://i.imgur.com/zfThWXP.png](http://i.imgur.com/zfThWXP.png)
[2] [http://i.imgur.com/qngKbGq.png](http://i.imgur.com/qngKbGq.png)
[3] [http://i.imgur.com/77vDhCd.png](http://i.imgur.com/77vDhCd.png)
~~~
topspin
Roboto... that's what got me here. I guess Segoe isn't too bad on Windows, but
Roboto is just tragic. Wow. Really bad.
------
fo747
Bold markdown is basically broken on OSX+Chrome, see before & after
screenshots here, which I tweeted at Github:
[https://twitter.com/MrOlovsson/status/752843094765236224](https://twitter.com/MrOlovsson/status/752843094765236224)
------
AnonymousPlanet
You can alias fonts in Linux, i.e., replace one font with any other. Font
Manager is a nice UI for this. I never found anything like it for Windows or
OS X.
------
misaochan
How do I get the old font back? Chrome/Windows font is terrible!
~~~
sebslomski
[https://github.com/rreusser/the-old-github-
font](https://github.com/rreusser/the-old-github-font)
------
Phil_Latio
Segoe UI on Windows. Roboto looks way better.
------
haukur
The idea behind this change seems to be centred around using a modern font no
matter what device the user is on while not sacrificing performance. The
trade-off here is brand consistency, but if the alternatives are to use an
archaic font or a slow webfont, I think this approach wins.
------
armabiz
_Firefox hack:_
There is an extension to override/inject CSS for specific domains:
[https://addons.mozilla.org/en-
US/firefox/addon/stylish/](https://addons.mozilla.org/en-
US/firefox/addon/stylish/)
Old styles can be grabbed from the: [https://github.com/rreusser/the-old-
github-font/blob/master/...](https://github.com/rreusser/the-old-github-
font/blob/master/extension/content.css)
After applying the following config:
[http://i.imgur.com/hGffN8I.png](http://i.imgur.com/hGffN8I.png) GitHub look
is back to normal.
------
nathancahill
Anyone know what it was previously? I'm writing a user stylesheet to change it
back.
~~~
vmasto
Helvetica on OSX, Arial on Windows.
~~~
Leandros
They also changed the size from 13px to 14px.
------
jedireza
Yeah, I'm getting Cantarell rendering on Gnome, it's no San Francisco.
------
boromi
Looks terrible on chrome on windows arrrgg why did it have to change
~~~
helb
It's using your system fonts. If they look terrible, it's not Github's fault…
------
neelkadia
previous was a lot better.
------
ivotron
and there I was trying to fix my Firefox (clearing caches, cookiest, etc.) ...
XD
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Career path guidance - leign
Background:
I am in my second to last year of my undergraduate degree studying computer science and engineering. I have been told that the next best step is to get a technical graduate degree. My guess, however, is that by getting a more technical degree, I will be locked into a more technical position. Front-end development (UI/UX), marketing, and management interest me greatly. As I look at career options, I am realizing how much more of an advantage you have if you know which career path you want to take early on, so you can tailor your experience/skills.<p>Goals:
The career I consider ideal would be working in a position where:
1. I have more influence, which I suppose would be at a start-up or a small/medium enterprise 2. Am able to work with multiple factions within a company (be involved with the whole process) 3. Am able to grow professionally<p>Questions (many of my friends have the same unanswered questions with a general regard to the tech industry):
What would you recommend for someone with my background in terms of career paths?
Does a technical graduate degree make that big of a difference?
Would an MBA (possibly in marketing) be beneficial?<p>Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
======
brudgers
I have a neighbor who is a full time artist. Her income sources are diverse.
She teaches workshops. She provides private lessons. Sure she paints paintings
and sells them, but those paintings are painted with content and technique
that sells not for radical experimentation in artistic expression: some are
even done pseudonymously, scanned and giclee'd "in bulk" for interior
designers...and the nice thing about those is that checks come in the mail
long after the work is done.
The reality of a particular career is usually unrelated to the way a person
thinks about it in school. Beyond technique, there's nothing much in her
career that was taught in school. The strong relationship between her work and
her study is her passion for painting.
If you're doing MBA type stuff or UI/UX work in your free time, those are
great ways to extend your interest. If you're currently managing and running
organizations, then that's a sensible basis for pursuing more knowledge and
training. It's also reasonable to realize that you don't like doing technical
work: many young people are pushed toward it in lieu of their deeper
interests.
My advice is to think about what you _really_ want to do. I doubt it is "being
an MBA".
Good luck.
~~~
leign
Thank you very much for your response. It is insightful and though provoking
and I appreciate you taking the time to write it.
------
seren
I have no specific advice for you, but I think you are wrong thinking that
having skills in different areas will hinder you.
On the contrary, remarkable people I have been working with, are usually good
in more than one area. Being a good product manager is nice, being a good
product manager, and having the depth of knowledge necessary to understand
intimately how the product works and how it could be improved is awesome.
~~~
leign
I agree with what you are saying. I probably should not get tunnel vision
towards a particular career and appreciate what it means to be well-rounded.
Thank you for your response.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Epic Games renews legal request to bring Fortnite back to Apple store - maydemir
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/05/tech/fortnite-app-epic-apple-lawsuit/index.html
======
pjmlp
I am with Apple on this one, apparently Epic would rather pay the royalties
required by mobile operators on the age of Symbian, J2ME, Brew, Blackberry.
30% was nothing compared with values all above 50% and that would vary per
operator, country and global region, so naturally everyone jumped of joy into
iOS.
They started the fight, lets see if they brought enough ammo to the party.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask YC: Good laptop mouse? - ciscoriordan
Anyone have a recommendation for a good, lightweight mouse?<p>I got a free one as swag a few years ago, and one of the buttons is starting to act up, so I need a replacement.
======
ejs
I use the MoGo bluetooth mouse because it is easy to carry and works fairly
well... I would not recommend it if you plan on spending a lot of time on it
however.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Apache vs Nginx: Practical Considerations (2015) - g4k
https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/apache-vs-nginx-practical-considerations
======
reacharavindh
I skimmed through the article and a simple question came to mind that I
couldn't get an easy answer for. For serving static files to very few users,
what would the performance difference be between Apache httpd and Nginx.
Throughput wise and latency wise..
I can run this experiment on VMs, but wanted to ask here in case anyone
already did.
~~~
gtirloni
Nonscientific experiment:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14590060](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14590060)
* httpd 2.45.5, default config (prefork), peaked at 24 processes and ~8MB RSS each (192MB) => 88k req/sec
* nginx 1.10.3, default config, peaked at 8 processed and ~4MB RSS each (32MB) => 199k req/sec
* httpd 2.45.5, stripped down mpm_event, peaked at 5 processed 8MB each (40MB) ==> 89k req/sec
~~~
tyingq
Turn off AllowOverride so that Apache doesn't check for .htaccess on every
request.
I suspect the numbers get very similar then.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Introducing Rack: a web server interface and software package for R - agconway
http://jeffreyhorner.tumblr.com/post/4723187316/introducing-rack
======
hkarthik
From the article:
_Rack is a web server interface and software package for R. It is very much
like Ruby’s Rack. In fact it is so much like Ruby’s Rack that I decided to use
the same name and basic class hierarchy. You could say I “borrowed heavliy”
from Ruby’s Rack, and you wouldn’t be far from the truth. In fact, you could
say “I stole their idea” and re-purposed it for R, and then you’d be telling
the truth._
If you're going to totally copy a concept (which is fine, this is all OSS
after all), at least derive a new name for it.
------
oomkiller
Uh, picking a name that is already taken is usually frowned upon. How are
people going to find R-Rack articles by searching Google, if the name is just
Rack?
~~~
jcapote
Not only is the name already taken, it's a similar project (web server
interface).
------
dimmuborgir
Please change the name before it's too late.
\- a friendly request from Ruby community.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Why doesn't Google maps have routes for tsunami/volcano evacuation - ozfive
We were just in a 4.6 Earthquake here in the Seattle area. I just tried to get google maps to give me the route for tsunami evacuation and it doesn't have that capability. Why not? Anyone from the maps team here?
======
codedrome
I think the most likely explanation is that they never thought of it.
Are there official routes designated by local/state/federal government? If so
maybe you could contact the relevant authority and ask them to ask Google to
add them.
Google maps often has topical information, eg road closures, so it's obviously
dynamic rather than just an online equivalent of a paper map. The technology
therefore exists to do what you suggest.
~~~
ozfive
This is a great idea! I didn't think about going to the local governments and
asking them to reach out. I will get on this come Monday morning!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Why no one cares about privacy anymore - edw519
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-20000336-38.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20
======
TomOfTTB
Wow. I don’t claim to know specifically where the line between “journalism”
and “propaganda piece” lies but I think this article crosses it.
The way I see it this article’s points fall into two categories.
The first is using alarmists as examples and pretending no one else is
concerned about privacy. Yes, the folks who thought Google Street View was an
invasion of privacy were a little extreme but they certainly don’t represent
the only people who are concerned about keeping things private.
The second thing this article does is to obscure the point with restrictive
surveys. Yes, teens generally don’t care about their privacy because they
don’t have professional reputations to up hold or jobs to lose. It’s when you
start building a life for yourself that you realize how tragic it would be to
lose your lifestyle because you said something stupid on Facebook. So using
teens as your only data point is misleading.
In the end this is a Google propaganda piece IMHO. Google benefits from things
being public because the more public stuff that’s out there the more ads they
can sell. It’s hard to make money off a private profile that’s only visible to
someone’s immediate friends and family.
(On that note, what's CNet thinking having a reporter who is married to a
company employee cover that company?)
~~~
kevindication
It seems Declan has come a long way from the days when he actually added new
content to Politech. (<http://www.politechbot.com>)
------
fexl
Voluntary transparency is good for reputation and good for business. However,
I choose not to live in a glass house. To those who demand to know what I'm
trying to hide, I demand to know what they're trying to steal.
~~~
dustingetz
trying to steal? what? edit: my point is that telling the people you're trying
to convince that they are somehow stealing, is not helping our cause.
~~~
loup-vaillant
This is an analogy to physical possessions. "Steal" translate to "disclose",
here.
Personally, I don't like analogies very much. I go for a more direct approach:
Google: "If I am doing nothing wrong, then I have nothing to hide",
Privacy advocate: "if I am doing nothing wrong, then you have nothing to see".
~~~
Groxx
Privacy advocate is closer to "If you don't suspect me of something, you have
no reason to be looking".
"Innocent until proven guilty" isn't meant to protect the guilty, it's meant
to protect the innocent.
~~~
loup-vaillant
That's exactly what I was saying. Out of context, the phrasing I have chosen
may not be the best one, but it matches the phrasing of the sentence it
responds to. I think it has more impact in a live debate.
------
RyanDScott
I know I'm greatly generalizing here, but when it comes to privacy there are
two types of people: good people with legitimate things to hide and bad people
with bad things to hide. Knowledge is everything. If I know the government is
logging my chats and I'm in the "good people" category, I'll try not to say
anything I don't want public and at the same time hope they are catching the
"bad people" by logging their chats too.
But does that mean we only care about the privacy of good people? Or do we
justify breaching the privacy of good people in order to "protect" them from
the information bad people might have?
For me, I'll give up a lot of my privacy if it means less savory characters
are stopped from doing bad things. But it's a fine line, and it can be crossed
when so much of my privacy is given up that it becomes dangerous to me because
of the usefulness or sensitivity of the information divulged.
\----------
The death of privacy is quickly being carried out by the age of false privacy.
It's the age of not knowing who is hearing what or even know how much you are
sharing; but more so, it's the age of cover-up, where you buy privacy by
putting forth a salted self. Those immersed in social media are getting
increasingly apt at concealing the bad and accentuating the good. Personal
blogging is usually nothing more than an exercise in deception. And that's not
necessarily a bad thing. I don't want to know your dirty secrets.
~~~
scscsc
Besides yourself, who is good?
------
andrewcooke
for what it's worth i just gave up on gmail over privacy. i've returned to
mutt via ssh. i realise that's probably too old-school for most, but i've been
making notes if anyone want to do the same.
<http://www.acooke.org/cute/LeavingGMa0.html> is the first post with the
general setup (in particular, using mairix to replace gmail's tags and search)
and <http://www.acooke.org/cute/EfficientS0.html> goes into detail about how
to get spam levels down to the same low level as gmail (ie practically none).
------
hooande
I understand that there isn't a commonly accepted term for "I'm creeped out by
how much information about me is available", but we need to stop using
"privacy". If we keep throwing the word around it will lose all meaning.
Someone taking a picture of your street and putting it on the internet doesn't
violate your privacy. Someone making use of information that you volunteered
to a social networking site doesn't violate your privacy, either. Online
advertising relates to privacy in only the most extreme of cases - where
somehow spyware is installed on your computer that records what software you
use and how you use it. Tracking cookies do not violate your privacy.
If you legitimately have something to hide, you won't be found out by online
advertising, facebook or even google. There is very little online that can
gather information about you that you don't volunteer in some way. Can anyone
think of a case where someone's life was significantly impacted by the
exposure of private information online?
~~~
loup-vaillant
The big problem lies in "volunteering". People mostly don't volunteer. They
just don't understand. Writing something on my web site or here, _is_
volunteering. It is public and I know it. Insulting my boss in my Facebook
wall, imagining that only my friends will know it, then getting fired over
that is _not_ volunteering. It's lacking a clue.
And I'm only talking about information I explicitly put there. I didn't talk
about what could be _inferred_ from that, which can be quite a lot. Even more
so when this information is centralized so it can be compared to the other
users'.
> Can anyone think of a case where someone's life was significantly impacted
> by the exposure of private information online?
To convince you, I feel I would have to point to a case where someone's live
was _suddenly_ impacted. It does happen, but the main impact is probably more
subtle, like discriminations (which you can't see) or advertising (which can
do a better job influencing you).
~~~
tedunangst
How is insulting your boss on your Facebook wall different from dissing him at
a bar then discovering that the bartender is his brother?
~~~
loup-vaillant
It's not _really_ different. In both cases, if you knew your boss could've
known, you wouldn't have said it. In both cases, you were in trouble because
your talk was not as private as you thought it was.
The real differences lies in the understanding of the risks. The "brother
bartender" is something most can understand. We all understand that talking in
public areas carries a risk of being overheard, and we tune our speech
accordingly. However, we don't all understand the risks associated with
Facebook and many other services "in the cloud". This means a higher risk of
being careless (and hurt yourself in the process).
Until we understand privacy risks associated with internet services as well as
those associated with physical interaction, we will have unexpected problems.
I'm confident that people will learn anyway. I just hope they don't learn the
hard way.
------
slvrspoon
i'd be interested in what the HN community thinks of my current co / hack
that's trying to deal 100% with this issue. use "SXEDCRF310" for your invite..
------
slvrspoon
and that would be: <http://wwww.getabine.com> :)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Wikipedia using JavaScript redirect for blackout - fatalerrorx3
Never realized how much I use Wikipedia until today..good thing they only used a JavaScript redirect for the blackout, just disabled JavaScript and I was able to get the info I needed
======
valisystem
I just press escape while the page is loading.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Number of legal 18x18 Go positions computed. One more to go - tromp
http://tromp.github.io/go/legal.html
======
everyone
Anyone here play? It is pretty much the ultimate boardgame. Its like game-
theory the game. From the very start you are embroiled in interesting
risk/reward and provoking you opponent to overextending type stuff. Great
place to play is gokgs.com I actually cant play many strategy games anymore
because I realize this is like go with a load of crap thrown on it. My friend
and I call this 'false complexity' the game isnt really complex it just has
loads of rules and random stuff to familiarise yourself with before getting
into the game proper. Its not a great a comparison but I would say something
like magic the gathering or Dota would be good contenders for most 'false
complexity' attained in a game.
~~~
darkmighty
In Dota for example the false complexity is what allows someone with not so
great analytical thinking but great knowledge of the complexity (items and
hero combinations) to fare pretty well. It helps level the field. Although
comparing go to RTS is extremely misleading. RTS's have pretty deep of what I
call 'continuous tactics' where you need to plan an optimal control of your
character with a continuum rather than discrete set of plays. It presents
incredibly rich situations which you cannot explain with the kind of strategy
you see in go or chess, for instance. The same goes for games like counter-
strike, once you take into account limited aiming capability. I think it's
beautiful how those games can hide this richness into a very fun game at low
levels, and how they don't seem so hard just because we're so good at spatial
reasoning and planning.
Here's an illustration:
[http://youtu.be/5e8HZqF3cyk?t=2m1s](http://youtu.be/5e8HZqF3cyk?t=2m1s)
I also like this quote by von Neumann:
"If people do not believe that mathematics is simple, it is only because they
do not realize how complicated life is."
I confess I do wonder what would be the equivalent 'go of RTS games', where
the minimal, essential dynamics are captured without all the bling.
~~~
anewhnaccount
It doesn't have the richness of Go but I believe
[https://www.gnu.org/software/liquidwar6/](https://www.gnu.org/software/liquidwar6/)
captures the essence of the "action/micro" side of RTSs.
~~~
nsajko
I prefer the old
[http://www.ufoot.org/liquidwar/v5](http://www.ufoot.org/liquidwar/v5) .
------
tunesmith
Just because the number of legal positions is computed doesn't mean we're
anywhere close to "solving" 18x18 Go, right? What's the utility of computing
the number of legal positions?
~~~
joelangeway
One example that just occurred to me: The base 2 log of the number of legal
positions of a 9x9 go game is about 126.3, which means if I use a good hash of
board positions yielding twice that number of bits, I have a better than 50/50
chance of having no collisions. That is very good to know if you've got
anything like a transposition table in a Go playing program.
~~~
Someone
You don't really need that precise an estimate.
81 * 2log3 ~= 128.38
So, the number of legal positions is only a factor of about 5 down from the
number of positions disregarding life.
------
hemmer
I wonder if this sort of thing might be appropriate for grid computing, e.g.
BOINC? There are plenty of mathematically minded projects.
[http://boinc.berkeley.edu/](http://boinc.berkeley.edu/)
------
e12e
I don't understand this quote: "[determining the number of valid positions is]
sadly unattainable for Chess, where determining if a given position is legal
is the essence of a class problems known as Retrograde analysis.".
Is this due to some subtle distinction between valid moves/games and
positions? Because since the starting position is given, and the rules are
set, surely it's possible (in theory) to simply emulate all possible moves,
and recording positions as one goes along, backtracking on cycles [ed: and on
check mate]?
~~~
cevn
It seems that in chess, the (current) "best" way to figure out whether a move
was legal is through retrograde analysis (1). As you can imagine, this becomes
very expensive, very fast. Not only that, but the current position may be
legal in chess given some previous conditions, but illegal given others
(consider Castling). Therefore, given no extra information, you may not be
able to tell whether a given chessboard is legal without being given the
entire history of the board as well.
Disclaimer: I don't know what I'm talking about, just googled retrograde
analysis
1\.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrograde_analysis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrograde_analysis)
~~~
b3n
I'm not sure what ruleset OP is using for their analysis, but with superko in
place you would also need the entire history of the board to know if a move is
valid.
~~~
tromp
Although rulesets might differ on what is considered a legal move, they all
agree on what is a legal position: one where every connected group of stones
has liberties (empty adjacent point). Furthermore, in all rulesets you can
reach any legal position by playing legal moves (and passes) from the empty
starting position.
------
userbinator
_Following 9 months of computation and 4 petabyte of disk IO on a Dell
PowerEdge R280 server_
I wonder if the time could be improved by optimising the programs some more,
since at this scale constants matter a _lot_. The amount of memory needed
might not be reducible but optimising a tight loop and reordering it to take
advantage of cache effects could yield nontrivial speedups.
Taking advantage of the very wide new instructions in recent CPUs might also
be worth it, instructions which compilers often have difficulty figuring out
how to use effectively:
[http://davidad.github.io/blog/2014/02/25/overkilling-
the-8-q...](http://davidad.github.io/blog/2014/02/25/overkilling-the-8-queens-
problem/)
~~~
tromp
Most time is spent normalizing, encoding, decoding, and sorting so-called
border states, compact 18*3-bit descriptions of all information needed about a
partial board position to determine its legal full-board completions. This
code is fairly optimized, but it's possible that a small factor could be
gained by expert analysis. Even so, there's little to no room for reducing the
amount of disk-IO, so the end-result might be that the problem becomes more IO
bound than CPU bound.
------
protomyth
So, given all the positions, can you tell which one(s) are possible results of
another position after another turn?
// did not know you couldn't do this for chess (paper even pointed to why)
~~~
tromp
Are you asking whether it's possible to determine all possible 1-move
predecessors of a given position?
If so, then yes, that is pretty straightforward. E.g. the last move was either
a pass, or a move by White, or a move by Black. For a move by White, it was
either a suicide, so could be on any point in an empty region enclosed by
Black, or it was no suicide and is one of the points occupied by White in the
given position, possibly having captured a Black group in any of the adjacent
empty regions enclosed by White.
~~~
protomyth
Yeah, that what I'm asking (in a really bad way). I wonder, given a list of
positions, how long it would take to build the transitions between them. I
would imagine 19x19 would be a "practically forever" type thing.
~~~
tromp
It would take at least a nanosecond for each position. Given that 6x6 already
has 62567386502084877, it would take at least 724 days. To take "practically
forever", 7x7 more than suffices:)
------
julbaxter
Another great resource about Go combinatory:
[http://ps.waltheri.net/](http://ps.waltheri.net/)
------
pathikrit
I want to learn Go. I would like to practice against a bot first before I get
on KGS. What is a good Go program I can run on my Mac to practice against? The
AI does not need to be very good at all since I am novice. Once I get familiar
with rules, I will play online against players. What is a good Go client to
play online on the Mac?
~~~
tunesmith
There is a way to compile GoGui so it is a mac app. Through it you can play
against GnuGo (brew install gnugo), fuego (brew install fuego), or pachi
(compile yourself). With it, you can also learn a lot by making an AI play
starting at a certain move, or making AI's play against each other.
You can also buy Goban from the app store to play GnuGo or Pachi (both
bundled), but it is a bit buggy (and not really better than the older free
version). They do respond to bug reports though so it sounds like they are
actively working on it.
Start out playing 9x9 against GnuGo. Give yourself a 9-stone handicap, you
should probably win. Take away handicap stones until you can win with a 3
stone handicap.
In general you don't want to play an AI at less than 3-stone handicap or you
will learn bad habits.
At that point, play against GnuGo 19x19 with a 9-stone handicap. If you are a
beginner around 20kyu, you will find it a challenge to win.
I've been practicing consistently for the past couple of months. I do problems
on goproblems.com or from a few iPhone apps. I've played a couple of games
against ranked bots on kgs and am ranked 15kyu there since I beat a popular
16kyu-ranked bot. KGS is inflated through so I'm probably around 20kyu, still
a complete beginner. I beat GnuGo 19x19 at a 9-stone handicap but not quite
yet at an 8-stone handicap.
Once you are able to beat GnuGo 19x19 at a lower handicap then you can start
playing against Fuego or Pachi. But at that point you should also already be
playing humans regularly - it's a very different playing style in that you'll
come across clearly bad moves that you will have to learn to recognize and
take advantage of.
------
Houshalter
For fun I did a search for approximations to the function with Eureqa. I get
exp(0.0319x(naturalLogOfLastValue) + 1.056xn^2 - 0.184).
Some other approximations here:
[http://i.imgur.com/w84aPWs.png?1](http://i.imgur.com/w84aPWs.png?1)
Note they are all in the log domain.
------
alexbecker
> we need from 10 to 13 servers, each with at least 8 cores, 512GB RAM, and
> ample disk space (10-15TB), running for about 5-9 months.
Is he sure about 512GB of RAM? That's a lot of memory. Even the 32-core
memory-optimized AWS instances only have 244GB.
~~~
nippoo
Where I'm currently working (computational neuroscience / data analysis) we've
just had to upgrade our servers and 512GB is only just enough for some
datasets. A couple of the labs nearby (genomics) share a cluster of ~10
machines with 1.5TB RAM each. So no, 512GB isn't stupidly high (though it's
still uncommon!).
(Large SQL servers, etc, often have this much RAM)
------
DiaaAttia
Hello, we provide jobs for ESL teachers through
[http://preply.com/en/skype/english-tutoring-
jobs](http://preply.com/en/skype/english-tutoring-jobs)
------
chizthtor
They got 57 legal position for a 2x2 game of go. They're counting all the
symmetries. They're not pruning anything. _facepalm_
~~~
tromp
Few people can believe that there are as many as 386,356,909,593 games on the
tiny 2x2 board. Needless to say, nothing is pruned there either. A game could
visit as many as 48 of the legal positions and have dozens of passes (but only
2 consecutive ones, which ends the game).
~~~
MichaelGG
Well it "ends" the game but play can resume. Plus, there's the crazy
hypothetical play in the way-over-complicated Japanese rules. I think, in
theory, you can play multiple almost-compete games after the game is "over".
Each hypothetical play is just to resolve one group, as I understand.
~~~
tromp
Indeed, the Japanese rules are not suitable for mathematical analysis of the
game; see
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_go#Counting_phase](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_go#Counting_phase)
That's why our paper "Combinatorics of Go" assumes the so-called Logical Rules
at [http://tromp.github.io/go.html](http://tromp.github.io/go.html), which do
end a game on consecutive passes.
~~~
lambda
I would also like to point out, for the benefit of anyone else here (just
replying to you to clarify your point), that the Logical Rules referred to are
commonly referred to as the Tromp-Taylor Rules, after John Tromp (the
submitter and parent commenter) and Bill Taylor, who wrote them up as a
simplified version of the New Zealand rules; and that these, in turn, are in
the branch of Chinese-style, or area-scoring rules (counting the sum of stones
on the board and territory surrounded for score), to contrast with Japanese
and Korean style, or territory-scoring rules (counting the sum of territory
surrounded minus captured stones for the score).
The reason that rulesets in the Chinese style branch are more amenable to
mathematical analysis are that you can play the game until you have an
unambiguous result about the life or death of a group, and thus these rulesets
usually involve simply resuming the game and playing it out if there is any
dispute about whether a group is alive or dead (or, for the logical rules,
don't involve resumption at all, you just play it out and score it as is after
two passes, with all empty points that reach two colors being counted for no
one; since in area scoring games, ending the game before that point is mainly
a convention for human players who don't feel the need to play all the way to
the point of killing obviously dead groups).
Under Japanese style rules, playing within your territory to kill a disputed
group may reduce your own score, so rather than just playing it out to the
end, there are an elaborate set of conventions for determining the life or
death of particular shapes. This elaborate set of conventions is much more
difficult to represent mathematically.
The American Go Association rules of Go have an interesting hack to allow you
to use Japanese-style territory scoring, but wind up with the same result as
Chinese-style area scoring would give you, by having you actually give your
opponent a stone as a capture when you pass, plus making the game-ending
passes be two or three passes such that each player has the same number of
turns. This preserves the benefit of area scoring, that any dispute on life or
death can be resolved by resuming the game and playing it out until the
situation is completely unambiguous, while still allowing the somewhat easier
method of counting that territory scoring provides (filling in liberties with
captured stones, and then just counting the remaining territory, and thus
having to actually count to a lower number).
The Tromp-Taylor rules do make some adjustments for the sake of making it even
more amenable to analysis that most other rulesets do not, such as allowing
suicide. This doesn't actually affect the strategy in very many games, as it's
very rare to encounter a situation in which a suicidal move would be the best
choice, but it tends to make analysis a bit simpler as there is one fewer
constraint to worry about. I feel like allowing suicide is more elegant, but
it is only allowed in a few rulesets.
It is unfortunate that for such a simple game, there is no one agreed upon
worldwide rule set. There are a couple of different parameters that you can
tweak in a ruleset that give you a game that is very similar, but different
enough in a few corner cases to make them different games; territory vs. area
scoring (and with territory, the large number of conventions on life and death
you need to make it work), simple ko vs. situational superko vs. positional
superko, suicide vs. no suicide, counting points in seki, and komi (number of
extra points for the second player to make up for the first-move advantage).
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Trane: a language for automating data science [video] - greenyouse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4f1jzhUjjs
======
greenyouse
Research articles on the system are:
[http://dai.lids.mit.edu/Trane.pdf](http://dai.lids.mit.edu/Trane.pdf)
[http://dai.lids.mit.edu/Pred_eng.pdf](http://dai.lids.mit.edu/Pred_eng.pdf)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
100% time - lemming
http://cemerick.com/2013/02/15/100-time/
======
cemerick
Author here. While I appreciate the reads, I am even more glad for the
amusement provided by various comments about how I'm confused about what "100%
time" means (since, AFAIK, the post is where the term was first used outside
of private conversations with friends of mine), or that it's potentially
illegal, or that it's really just the typical 80/20 split and I can't tell the
difference. Cheers! :-D
Snark aside, Craig Andera asked me about the post on a recent Relevance
podcast, and we talked about it and matters related to 100% time for a good
stretch:
[http://thinkrelevance.com/blog/2013/05/14/chas-emerick-
mostl...](http://thinkrelevance.com/blog/2013/05/14/chas-emerick-mostly-lazy-
podcast-episode-031)
~~~
furyofantares
> since, AFAIK, the post is where the term was first used outside of private
> conversations with friends of mine
I believe the term is used in the Valve employees handbook
~~~
cemerick
It's close (from
[http://www.valvesoftware.com/company/Valve_Handbook_LowRes.p...](http://www.valvesoftware.com/company/Valve_Handbook_LowRes.pdf)):
We’ve heard that other companies have people allocate a
percentage of their time to self-directed projects. At
Valve, that percentage is 100.
I definitely don't claim any originality in the concept. The pithy, perhaps
eye-roll-worthy phrasing, maybe. ;-)
~~~
loumf
Didn't I just read on HN that the Valve thing was BS? [http://www.develop-
online.net/news/44746/Valves-perfect-hiri...](http://www.develop-
online.net/news/44746/Valves-perfect-hiring-hierarchy-has-hidden-management-
clique-like-High-School)
I know Chas fairly well, and I'm reasonably sure this isn't what he was
talking about.
~~~
cemerick
Yes, that reply was only regarding the particular phrase "100% time", and the
very broad concept of self-directed work.
~~~
dugmartin
This is turning into a Western Mass developers thread. Paging cmiles74 and
ggualberto.
------
zaidf
_100% time means that I choose what to care about, and then dedicate all my
energy to making that choice have impact_
There isn't a lot of difference between 100% time and the concept of 80-20.
You are interpreting the 80% time almost like slavery while making it seem
like your 100% time provides _complete_ freedom. I bet the reality is in
between. The 80% time is still spent working for a company you're _choosing_
to work for, often on projects you're choosing to work on and often work that
you're enjoying. Meanwhile, even when you have the freedom to dedicate 100% of
your life on whatever you'd like, you're still compelled to decide what to
prioritize and what to turn down because of a lack of time.
~~~
coffeemug
I run a business. In theory I have 100% time. In practice, I still have to
choose to do grunt work 80% of the time (or more) if I want my business to
succeed. You can redefine and reshuffle the numbers, but ultimately the work
that needs to get done _needs to get done_.
We designed our company in such a way that to some degree everyone has 100%
time. We get together and choose priorities as a group, and then everyone can
spend their time as they wish, as long as the goals we agreed on as a team are
met. People still choose to do grunt work, since they realize it needs to get
done for the company to succeed. There is no way to escape that.
I think that ultimately, it's a matter of having the choice that makes a
difference between fulfillment and misery. But even if you can _choose_ what
to work on, you still have to do unpleasant work at least some of the time.
~~~
cemerick
For sure, there are times when certain things simply have to get done. I
didn't talk about that side of things simply because it would have diluted the
message, and I figured that it was a given.
However, contrary to what the GP says, 100% time (at least, my personal
experience) bears little to no resemblance to the 80/20 split found in many
workplaces. I don't know what the split actually shakes out to in my case, but
short of allowing random HNers to surveil me (as tantalizing a notion as that
may be :-P), everyone will just have to take me at my word that what I'm
talking about isn't some sugar-coated notion of "it feels like I'm not working
because I love my work so much".
~~~
lectrick
I am a person who severely can't stand paperwork. (ADD may be a factor.) Yet
I'd be just the sort of person who would actually be productive in a self-
directed fashion. Do you think that striking out on my own could work? I would
pay money for someone else to do the paperwork side (although I'd have to
trust them, of course...)
------
rlu
I admire (and in some ways totally agree with/follow) the message.
Having said that, I don't really think that you can say that with his "100%
time" he can still achieve what Google employees once did during 20% time. My
understanding is that Google now (and for a while) has not actually continued
to uphold the 20% tradition - and that was expected with company growth - but
back when it did, the idea was that you could spend 20% of your time to build
your own side project using Google resources and while getting paid by Google.
Maybe it would become super popular and be a 'real product' some day.
With "100% time" you certainly cannot legally do this. I can't go to work and
devote some time to some side project using my company's resources and while
getting paid to be doing other work. Sure, I could put in "100% time" into
doing it, but it would be illegal.
Like I said, I like the message, but mentioning 20% time seems wrong since you
can't compare the two. In my opinion, anyways.
~~~
mathgladiator
In terms of legality, it really depends on what kind of covenants you went
into.
The 20% thing at Google is currently a marketing lie, and now Google is very
much so a "team dependent" environment. That is, 20% is only allowed based on
your team and the politics around your group. (based on several current/former
google employers that I've talked to...)
~~~
magicalist
> The 20% thing at Google is currently a marketing lie
There was a thread recently where some googlers said the opposite. The main
thing I've heard is that you have to actually assert yourself and take the 20%
time, it's not going to be set aside for you.
Edit: this one:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5982333](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5982333)
~~~
qwerta
If you already work 50 hours a week, I am sure they will happily allow
additional 10 hours for your hobbies :-)
------
petercooper
I'm doing something similar. I sold the technology of my (very) small startup
in 2007 and had enough to stop "working" and putz around for a few years. I
had no aim but kept trying whatever took my fancy. Eventually, something
clicked as being in demand, profitable, and something I enjoyed doing. That's
now my new business and I try to optimize so that at least 80% of the work is
something I enjoy doing (and try to outsource anything that I don't!)
Without that initial runway, however, I'd never have done it and this idea of
having some extended time off or having a healthy pillow of cash to cushion a
potential fall seems to be a common element of many stories like this.
~~~
cemerick
I've not had an exit (threading that needle with a small software product
business seems to be particularly challenging), but I hope I've been able to
accomplish something similar in terms of searching for the next best thing. I
_think_ I've found it, but only time will tell; at the very least, I feel like
I've found something like a "life's work" worth thinking about in those terms,
so that's something...
Thanks for sharing! :-)
------
davidw
This sums up very nicely why I'm interested in building a company. It's not
something I'm a 'natural' at (I'm not a great programmer, but I feel _very_ at
home with it), and I don't care about being rich, I just want time and
freedom.
Even with the small amount of money I've made with LiberWriter, I've tasted
some of that decoupling he talks about - it's an awesome feeling when someone
signs up, asks a few questions to our support team, and has their book done
without me lifting a finger!
------
veesahni
Great post! I have much of the same motivations, which keeps me persevering
towards my goals.
------
jaimebuelta
Not sure about this. 20% time put some boundaries, and marks that you should
be doing something different. It can be typically abused (hey, I'm supposed to
have 20% for "other projects", but I have a deadline, so I'll use it for the
"regular work"), but at least there is a line in the sand saying: "This is
clearly time for OTHER STUFF". Your manager can say to you "hey, it's friday
so you should be leaving this alone and do alternative projects"
100% sounds great, but does not define anything, so it's extremely easy to
fall into "I have a lot of work, I can move to other stuff when the workload
goes down". Of course, workload never goes down...
~~~
cemerick
(Author here.) I agree that 100% time does not define anything. That is
definitional. ;-) I'm "the boss" of the business, so I'm pretty well in
control of what gets done and what doesn't.
The whole thing requires a great deal of self-control and psychological
awareness…though I'd suggest that without that, the business that makes the
whole thing possible in the first place probably wouldn't exist.
------
Pavan_
100% time idea can only be possible in a start up company. If you consider any
big corporate company, they don't even allow 10% time policy. This makes an
engineer just another labor.
------
jimhefferon
Trapped my back button.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Goto and the folly of dogma (2018) - luu
https://manybutfinite.com/post/goto-and-the-folly-of-dogma/
======
_bxg1
Over my first five years of professional programming, I've been thirstily
chasing the dragon of "perfect description". Early on I thought it was OOP.
Then entity/component. Then FP. Then it was _really_ about the type system.
Possibly the biggest lesson I've learned - both from the kiln of real-world
project requirements (within a multi-paradigm language) and from my
intentional ventures into other different and diverse programming languages
and frameworks - is that there's no such thing. There's no perfect way of
describing, not within a domain and certainly not across them. It's not just a
matter of abstracting farther and farther from real-world concerns,
sacrificing optimization until you're in descriptive nirvana. There are many
good ways to describe a given thing in code, and there are many more bad ways,
but there's no perfect way. Once I grasped that I became a much better (and
less stressed) programmer.
~~~
quickthrower2
Yes definitely. The essence is finding the right abstraction. The computer
doesn't care if you get this wrong, and the code could work perfectly, but it
can be a pain to maintain something if something is abstracted the wrong way.
And aiming to reduce the file size of your source files by "Don't Repeat
Yourself" isn't the necessarily always the best way to make code maintainable.
I've breathed a sigh of relief when I saw a code base that was your usual
scaffolded MVC app rather than something with a tonne of metaprogramming. I've
seen both, and the Keep It Simple principle has some merit.
Infact the best abstraction may depend on the team who will be maintaining
that code - so whether to use Tech A or B or Pattern X or Y might have, as an
important factor, whether you are moving office from one city to another, and
whether the job market is good or bad, affecting flow of people in or out of
the company etc.
------
hn_throwaway_99
I feel like engraving this paragraph in a wall:
_Taboos tend to accrete over time. For example, overzealous object-oriented
design has produced a lot of lasagna code (too many layers) and a tendency
towards overly complex designs. Chasing semantic markup purity, we sometimes
resorted to hideous and even unreliable CSS hacks when much simpler solutions
were available in HTML. Now, with microservices, people sometimes break up a
trivial app into a hard-to-follow spiderweb of components. Again, these are
cases of people taking a valuable guideline for an end in itself. Always keep
a hard-nosed pragmatic aim at the real goals: simplicity, clarity,
generality._
From Java's "AbstractFactoryBuilderDelegator" insanity to "nanoservices", the
common thread to me seems to be overzealous decoupling, to the point where I
need to look in 10 different locations just to find out what happens during a
single request.
~~~
tluyben2
When you get more experienced most of these things make me laugh or cry
(depending on the siuation); it does not matter what companies like FB, Google
do; people on HN or Reddit will take it and do it to the extreme: we now ‘need
to’ use React for everything; if it does not fit, just beat it with a hammer
until it does. Kubernetes and microservices must be used for every tiny little
part if the app even if it causes a lot more overhead in performance/memory
use (computers are cheap and fast!) or debugging. Abstract almost everything!
(Java + OOP, Javascript and the npm mess) to Abstract almost nothing! (Go w/o
generics), Make everything reusable (left-pad), Rewrite everything in JS!,
Rust!, Go! etc etc. Everyone is running after eachother and doing it more
extreme and the end result is just as shit as if you would not have done that
at all and just thought about it bit before opening some IDE and codegenerate
you million lines of boilerplate with the instable and slow framework-du-jour.
As an older coder I sigh when a codebase is taken out of the ‘mothballs’ even
6-12 months after creation and people cannot get it running because everything
they used is outdated because the framework and library authors move fast and
break everything all the time. And ofcourse it is in an outdated language /
framework(Ruby on Rails is soooo pase) so noone knows anything , it uses the
358 most popular DSLs (350 unmaintained since january) at the time so unless
you drank the same coolaid it is a nightmare spelonking adventure.
At least Dijkstra had sound mathematical reasoning for his arguments and wrote
about them eloquently (and with good humor I may add); most of what is peddled
in the hipster coding circles is a smooth talk by a gifted social media
frontman that has no solid basis in anything besides that the person is
popular. I do not even understand how people dare to put their name on
complete messes like npm or one line npm packages unless it is a joke. I
assume things like leftpad are in fact a joke; if they are not I would have to
cry myself to sleep every night. So I just lie and say it is funny.
Only when someone codes something without any of that and it gets popular or
makes a lot of money, people come with ‘it was best for this occassion’. The
best example I can think off being anything Arther Whitney (k/kbd+) does; his
softare makes a ton of money, it is faster, smaller and, in my opinion, easier
to debug and uses less resources than most things I have ever seen passing
here (including what people call embedded; no people, something with a gig of
memory is not emdedded) and yet it pukes over almost all rules and styleguides
that everyone loves so much. Not to mention: he does something a lot of
programmers are jealous off (including me); he makes money with a programming
language and is always used here as a counter example when people shout that
programming languages that are not opensource and/or are commercial (even very
costly) do not work.
I wanted to write one sentence; it became slightly more, but I guess most of
it is on topic.
~~~
ritty
I'm probably going to take a lot of heat from all the young whippersnappers
out there for this, but I absolutely love your comment about React. I'm going
to save it. It totally describes my experiences with other developers. They
want to use React to re-write major portions of our codebase that work
perfectly well as is, just because React is super awesome! Can you guess how
many of our customers have complained that our website isn't a single page
application? I'll give you a hint, it's less than one. The devs will also make
little teeny projects that would take less than an hour to write in Vanilla JS
and make this big 20 hour development project that has a monolithic codebase
that all the sudden needs routers and back button integration and url mangling
and gigantic switch statements to draw the correct "page." Oh and don't forget
you have to set up all that webpack and and compiling routines so that you can
compile all that garbage into other garbage. And then you also have to do that
build over and over again for every change. This is JavaScript. Script is in
the name. It's not meant to be a compiled language. And contrary to our dev's
beliefs, React does not run or draw faster than Vanilla JS, unless you are
constantly redrawing the whole page in Vanilla JS, which no one does. I hate
React.
~~~
folkhack
In the United States the management layer doesn't have a clue so if you don't
keep up on React, GraphQL, etc etc - you're seen as a curmudgeon.
They're not the ones learning it but they're still attending all of the
conferences for it and with a non-practiced engineering capability they're
back to cargo cult BS.
Best to keep learning the new hotness or it's career suicide. Just remember,
for almost any 9-5 it's about the _narrative_ of work more than it is about
the work. Rewriting/changing huge portions of your already-working tech stack
is job security. I truly believe a huge portion of engineers engage in their
own "make-work" to justify their existence/paycheck.
~~~
tluyben2
Keeping up with something does not imply showhorning it into using it
everywhere but I agree with you.
------
ridiculous_fish
I was surprised by the number of gotos in the Python runtime. The link in the
article was down so here:
[https://github.com/python/cpython/search?q=goto](https://github.com/python/cpython/search?q=goto)
There's a lot of "goto exit" which is obviously a CPython runtime convention -
fair enough. However there's plenty of classically bad code, example:
[https://gist.github.com/ridiculousfish/ffe4fa2a17c831ed06e57...](https://gist.github.com/ridiculousfish/ffe4fa2a17c831ed06e57cfb2c467b25)
These are old-school-bad gotos: `if` statements would do the job more clearly.
Is this a broken-window phenomenon: one planted `goto` opens the door for the
rest? Or is there a deeper motivation for this style?
~~~
arcticbull
This feels less like 'folly of dogma' and more like these (C/C#) programming
languages don't have the constructs to safely and properly express what the
programmer is trying to do. 'goto exit' is an unsafe and dangerous version of
Rust's '?' operator.
> We should be willing to break generic rules when the circumstances call for
> it. Keep it simple.
I argue we should instead iterate on the programming language design to make
sure we don't need to make these kinds of trade-offs.
~~~
ridiculous_fish
C++ has solid "cleanup" constructs so I wonder why CPython is in C instead of
C++. Is it portability, compilation speed, complexity control, transition
cost, something else...
~~~
overgard
All of those, but also python came out in 1991 when C++ was still in its
infancy. Even if C++ had been mature though C is still a better choice, python
is often embedded in other programs and doing that with C has a lot fewer
headaches (simpler linking, better compiler support)
------
maxxxxx
Dogma is a real problem in this industry. When OO came up suddenly everything
had to be objects. So instead of writing
A=add(B,C)
You had to write
Adder AA; A=AA.Add(B,C)
I remember endless discussions about this and people always argued that
functions are not OO whereas I said OO is about state so no OO needed for
adding two numbers.
Same with goto. In FORTRAN it was an essential tool but suddenly it became
illegal and you had to write complex if statements and other things just to
get the same effect.
I guess software is so complex that it’s very to always understand all
drawbacks and advantages of something so you have to live by a set of rules
that usually work and follow them blindly.
~~~
seanmcdirmid
> Adder AA; A=AA.Add(B,C)
Did anyone actually ever do that or is this just a huge red herring?
Also, the above looks more like a data flow language where adders are
necessarily components in the wiring diagram (try building a CPU without
adders!).
Add can be a virtual method on B (so B.add(C)), but then you really want
Dylan-esque multidispatch on both B and C. But those kind of debates fell out
of style with the 90s.
~~~
worik
Borland C++ windows toolkit back in the early nineties would do that sort of
thing, if memory serves.
Really deeply convoluted OO.
~~~
pjmlp
And way better than MFC or ATL ever were.
------
idlewords
This rant kind of has it backwards, and Dijkstra's argument against GOTO has
been the victim of its own success. The use of GOTO statements he was
critiquing doesn't really exist in the wild anymore, so people see the tamed
version of GOTO we use to break out of nested loops and so on, and wonder what
the big deal was.
It's almost like an anti-vax argument. "This disease doesn't exist anymore,
why are we cargo-culting by vaccinating against it?"
The argument in the original rant was about the limits of our ability to
reason about code, and remains a deep and useful insight. The fact that we
don't really have examples of non-structured codebases to point to in 2019
shows how essential the invention of it was to our work.
~~~
kstenerud
GOTO is an easy target due to its cultural notoriety (regardless of how it
actually looked in the past), but the overarching argument is indeed against
dogma. To quote Donald Knuth:
"In the late 1960's we witnessed a "software crisis", which many people
thought was paradoxical because programming was supposed to be so easy. As a
result of the crisis, people are now beginning to renounce every feature of
programming that can be considered guilty by virtue of its association with
difficulties. Not only go to statements are being questioned; we also hear
complaints about floating-point calculations, global variables, semaphores,
pointer variables, and even assignment statements. Soon we might be restricted
to only a dozen or so programs that are sufficiently simple to be allowable;
then we will be almost certain that these programs cannot lead us into any
trouble, but of course we won't be able to solve many problems."
It's a problem as old as time itself: A smart person makes an observation
based on deep understanding, and the rest, rather than go through the
cognitive load of learning its fundamental roots, convert it to an easy
statement of morality and dogma, shrouding it deeper and deeper with ceremony
and pomp to create a mystique that none dare investigate.
Thinking is hard, and takes much energy. Most people prefer to keep that to a
minimum, thus our superstitions, dogmas, cults, and priesthoods.
~~~
jerf
"GOTO is an easy target due to its cultural notoriety (regardless of how it
actually looked in the past), but the overarching argument is indeed against
dogma."
I agree.
But I think it's worth pointing out that if we're going to use reluctance to
use goto as an example of dogma, it strengthens the anti-dogma argument _even
more_ to point out that the dogma isn't even correct _on its own terms_ ; the
goto that the dogma is rejecting historically isn't the same goto that exists
today.
Under many dogmas lies a kernel of truth. That kernel can be worth extracting,
and is often quite enlightening, unlike the dogma.
------
ncmncm
It has been decades since I was tempted to "goto". This not because of dogma
or "drinking the kool-aid". It is because I use an expressive language that
has constructs that mean what I mean, so don't need to be cobbled up out of
such fragmentary primitives.
That so much C code is littered with them just demonstrates a deep weakness in
C, and not any kind of fundamental principle. I admit surprise that C# turns
out similarly weak.
~~~
asveikau
Would you also consider the assembly code that is generated by your high level
language to be so "littered" with jmp instructions, arising from a "deep
weakness"?
It's one thing to prefer to work with another abstraction, but this is awfully
judgmental phrasing that denies or unfairly maligns a usefulness and
_necessary_ ubiquity at a different level.
~~~
AnimalMuppet
Yes, assembly language is a language of deep weakness. There's a _reason_ we
don't use it unless we have to - it's too hard to write anything in assembler.
In fact, assembler weaker than C - in C, you can usually avoid goto if you
want to bad enough, but in assembly, it's impossible.
~~~
asveikau
> it's too hard to write anything in assembler.
And yet, everything you run is written in it. (By a compiler or a JIT, sure.)
The goto is a useful abstraction _for its layer_. It doesn't have to be your
favorite layer, but it's there, and ubiquitous.
I feel like discussions around memory safety are similar. I can't get a lot of
people around here to admit that in order to be blessed with memory safety at
one layer it needs to not exist somewhere else, and that's OK.
~~~
AnimalMuppet
You seem to be having a different discussion than most of the rest of us.
You're claiming that it's fine for its layer, and the rest of us are saying
that _we don 't want to work at that layer_.
Yes, jmp is useful at the assembly layer. Yes, everything eventually gets run
on assembly (on the way to microcode, and then transistors, and then quantum
mechanics). That doesn't mean most of us want to work there, though.
And goto is the same. Having seen that we don't have to work in that way, we
don't _want_ to work in that way. We can work with larger abstractions so that
we don't have to deal with that kind of detail.
~~~
asveikau
> You're claiming that it's fine for its layer, and the rest of us are saying
> that _we don 't want to work at that layer._
Correct. This is what I said all along. Glad to see you're up to speed.
Meanwhile, every time you write an if statement ... May you think,
acknowledge, appreciate: "I'm adding a goto!" Or possibly several of them. [I
am pretty sure I have had discussions with people who say they are also
against if statements, but I don't think that's quite as common.]
~~~
ncmncm
Everyone is always perfectly and completely aware of the jmp instructions that
implement their if and while statements. Talking about them does not make you
cleverer than anyone else.
What you are missing, and is the fundamental essence of the whole discussion,
is that these jmp instructions don't just jump to any old place, like a goto.
They jump to only very specific places corresponding to the boundaries of our
if and while statements. The compiler will never generate an undisciplined
branch, absent an actual goto in the source.
Beneath the jmp instructions there are register transfer machines, and beneath
them are logic gates, and beneath them are transistors and wires, and beneath
them are charge carriers and fields, and beneath those are atoms and
crystalline structure.
At each level you can find the correspondence with structures in the next
level above and below. In no case does the lower level violate the structural
rules of the next level up, despite that in principle, it could. That is how
we get systems that can be understood, and work.
~~~
asveikau
> Talking about them does not make you cleverer than anyone else.
Please don't assume that any notion of my own cleverness is the crux of what I
am saying or has anything to do with it.
> At each level you can find the correspondence with structures in the next
> level above and below. In no case does the lower level violate the
> structural rules of the next level up, despite that in principle, it could
Disagree, especially since you went so far as to talk about the physics. There
is a lot of order created from chaos, and the structural rules are largely
fiction, taking some effort to impose them.
~~~
ncmncm
But they are, in fact, imposed, or you would not be able to read this; thus,
fictional only in that they were invented.
But in any case, and to the point, there is nothing fundamental about jmp
instructions. They, and the sequential execution they interrupt, are a way to
help organize state machines. It is a triumph of decades of effort that we
have succeeded in making state machines of such complexity behave in
comprehensible ways, and a deep failure that we have not found any better way.
------
aikah
It's funny how Go limitations made me go back to using GOTO statement to deal
with errors in an http handler.
------
noelwelsh
There is some nuance here that the author misses. Goto jumps to a location in
program text. Other techniques, like (single shot) continuations, jump to
program state. The former is dangerous. Not just because you can write
spaghetti code, which was the original critique against goto, but because you
can make jumps that have no meaning. For example, you can jump to a location
that has not been initialised yet. With continuations you can still write
complicated control flow, but you can only make jumps that are meaningful.
So I argue the issue is not with goto per se, it is with the lack of better
tools provided by the languages in question to express complicated control
flow. Like many things in programming languages, better tools are well studied
but not available in most mainstream languages, which are stuck in ~1980s
paradigm.
------
pjmlp
> When Linus Torvalds started the Linux kernel in 1991, the dogma was that
> "monolithic" kernels were obsolete and that microkernels, a message-passing
> alternative analogous to microservices, were the only way to build a new OS.
> GNU had been working on microkernel designs since 1986. Torvalds, a
> pragmatist if there was ever one, tossed out this orthodoxy to build Linux
> using the much simpler monolithic design. Seems to have worked out.
Except that desktop is the only place standing where microkernel haven't fully
catched up, and even then macOS and Windows have a kind of compromise between
monolithic and microkernels, with plenty of stuff running on userspace,
increasing with each release.
Even Project Treble pushes several drivers into userspace processes, with
Android IPC to talk with the kernel layer.
Had Hurd gotten the same love from IBM, Compaq, Oracle, Intel,.... as Linux
did, and it might have turned out quite differently.
------
8077628
Having saved myself a headache earlier by parsing some HTML with regex, I'm
appreciating this post. On the other hand, if you don't obey dogma, it may
impair the delivery of your cargo. Everything is a tradeoff.
~~~
wahern
There's a difference between admitting that corners need to be cut sometimes
and arguing that cut corners are _correct_.
You didn't "parse HTML" with a regex; you created a solution to fix a very
narrowly circumscribed problem by pattern matching on some string inputs. Big
difference. Were an easy to use HTML parser (or likely lexer) readily
available there'd be little excuse to cut corners as the proper solution would
likely be far easier to prove correct (formally or informally) than the regex
hack. (Full disclosure: I've written an HTML5-compliant streaming HTML lexer
precisely so I--and others--would have less reason to depend on regex hacks in
security scanners.)
The article says that the Linux approach proved good enough. No, it didn't.
Linux has turned into a nightmare of security vulnerabilities, on par with
Windows 95, just as originally prophesied. We only tell ourselves it's good
enough because we're unwilling to admit we're where at. Remember when Linux
and open source were paragons of security? Man, how times have changed....
But now we have a formally verified operating system in seL4, which is...
[wait for it...] a microkernel. Of course, it's difficult to use as a general
purpose OS, though not far from where Linux was in the 1990s. In time we'll
get there. In the meantime no good comes from lying to ourselves about the
nature of our solutions.
~~~
majkinetor
> Linux has turned into a nightmare of security vulnerabilities, on par with
> Windows 95, just as originally prophesied.
What exactly are you talking about ? What was 'originally prophesied' ?
~~~
wahern
That monolithic kernels are more susceptible to attack because they're less
resilient to programming errors. This was one of the arguments in the famous
Linux v MINIX debate(s), but the notion that microkernels were more secure
goes back to before the term microkernel was even coined (i.e. before 1980s).
------
cortesoft
Isn't "keep it simple" also dogma?
~~~
cjfd
It can be. Sometimes the requirements are complex so any expression of them in
code would also be complex. Then another person sees this complex code and
automatically assumes that it is bad and should be made less complex while
completely ignoring the fact that it would break the requirements. And to the
person who is now going to interject that the requirements should be simpler.
I am all for that if possible, but in many cases it is not. E.g., if they are
written in contracts. Of course, bad programmers will create complexity where
none is needed.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ending the anomaly: achieving low latency and airtime fairness in WiFi [pdf] - fanf2
https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/atc17/atc17-hoiland-jorgensen.pdf
======
jabl
Awesome work! It's just too bad ath9k equipped routers are starting to be a
bit hard to find..
And since ath9k is the only blob-free driver, prospects for fixing other
drivers are not that bright.
Disclaimer: I'm not involved in any of this work myself, the above is my
imperfect understanding of the situation. I'm just a happy owner and user of a
ath9k router.
~~~
Maakuth
I think the possibility of fixing existing hardware in bufferbloat project was
always limited at best. What can happen, though, is that good research results
would find their way to vendors. Then, slowly, the issues would be fixed in
new firmware blobs.
edit: typo
------
mangix
Most of this is limited to the ath9k driver. ath10k is blob based and seems to
have poor quality control as well as poor maintenance judging from all the
bugs that go unanswered.
------
kayali
For the uninitiated: how long before we can expect the results of this
research to be used in mainstream products?
~~~
legulere
From the abstract: "The implementation has been accepted into the mainline
kernel distribution, making it available for deployment on billions of devices
running Linux today."
~~~
kayali
Perhaps you misunderstood my question. How long would it take for routers that
run that version of the kernel to be available?
~~~
JPLeRouzic
As mangix said, it is not a question of "having this version in router's
kernel" because it depends strictly on the kind of chip the hardware uses.
Most Wi-Fi chips use their own program which is called "a binary blob", they
do not use the Wi-Fi stack of Linux except as a wrapper around their own code,
which is not accessible in source, only in binary.
This is why for example in Ubuntu (but also in most other Linux distributions)
there are "third party codes" that are "not free".
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Is licensing your Software a viable business model? - casabarata
======
__d
It can be, in some circumstances.
I mean, clearly, consider: Microsoft, Oracle, IBM, Adobe, AutoCAD, etc. They
all license their software, either as a one-time license purchase, or
(increasingly) as an annual license fee.
On a smaller scale, I've worked at several companies that license their
(proprietary) financial trading software to trading firms. The software is
used to connect the customer's algorithmic trading applications to stock
exchanges, etc. Licensing fees are tens of thousands of USD a year.
For something like Microsoft Word, there's a bunch of circumstances that
contribute to it being a viable product despite the existence of eg.
LibreOffice. Those circumstances are probably hard to replicate for an
individual or small team though.
For something targeting a more specific niche, it can be easier to deliver
enough value to the potential customers that they're prepared to pay for the
software. Often, the licensing is part of a package deal involving ongoing
support, customisation work, and access to the software.
I've noticed that some customers seem to actually prefer to pay for something,
for a combination of reasons including a feeling of access to something others
don't have, a feeling that they'll have more input into the future
development, having someone (contractually) responsible for answering
questions/fixing bugs/etc, and even just a general desire to contribute to the
upkeep of something they leverage in their business.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Building hybrid blockchain/cloud applications - max_
https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/data-analytics/building-hybrid-blockchain-cloud-applications-with-ethereum-and-google-cloud
======
gaogao
It's an interesting article, but also feels like peak buzzword with use-case 1
essentially being "machine learning in the cloud using blockchain and big
data"
~~~
Barrin92
yes it's hard to read. If the goal of technology is to make things simpler and
more efficient and to remove barriers, all these blockchain solutions don't do
a very good job of conveying how they're doing that.
I also still don't understand one part the article jumped over:
>But none of this addresses a fundamental issue: where to get the variables
with which the contract is evaluated. If the data are not derived from
recently added on-chain data, a trusted source of external data is required.
Such a source is called an oracle.
I and my landlord don't live on the blockchain, if he claims that I broke the
door and need to pay the damages, how does the immutable blockchain help me?
This sounds to me like the semantic web. When people asked "well and what if
someone puts wrong data into the system?" the answer was just ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
~~~
bena
Yeah, it's the one question blockchain enthusiasts never have an answer for:
What if I lie?
The issue was never the mutability of the record. The issue is reconciling the
record with reality.
Let's say I'm ordering 5 widgets. Along the way, 3 go missing. I receive 2.
The blockchain says that all 5 made it from the warehouse to the final
destination.
Blockchain does nothing to prevent shitty record keeping.
~~~
WalterSear
That's not the problem that blockchain is designed to solve. It is, however,
the problem that purveyors of centralized blockchains would like you think it
solves.
The problem that blockchains solve is centralization. In other words - google
cloud computing.
To revisit your example: let's say you are ordering 5 widgets.
* A lookup on the Widget Market Blockchain tells you that vendor X has completed a large number of 5-star transactions, with a verified number of clients that have all sufficient 5 star transactions with the rest of the network to be considered genuine accounts, while vendor Y has a history of shipments that are reported as not arriving. You can examine each transaction, though automated verification tools are already in place to make cheating unprofitable. You can examine the code of those tools, along with the blockchain contracts themselves, should you so choose.
Or:
* Amazon's Widget product page shows the Amazon Choice item (neither the cheapest, nor most appropriate product), followed by a list of sponsored products. Many of the reviews are clearly fake, or appear to refer to a different product, with no way to verify that an actual transaction between genuine widget trading parties took place.
~~~
blairanderson
Amazon does show "verified purchase" but who's to say what a genuine account
is?
~~~
WalterSear
The accounts' transaction histories, and the transaction histories of _their_
transactants is all that anyone - even Amazon - has to go on - in both toy
scenarios.
The difference here is the transparency, and the resulting web of trust that
can emerge.
You may not have done business with company X, but you can observe that many
users who successully transacted with companies Y, Z and W (with whom you have
also successfully transacted) have all left good purchase reviews for company
X.
------
devy
It's hard to believe Google actually hop onto the blockchain bandwagon as
well, given the father of the Internet and their Chief Internet Evangelist
Vint Cerf[1] famously said "No" to blockchain [2].
[1]:
[https://ai.google/research/people/author32412](https://ai.google/research/people/author32412)
[2]:
[https://twitter.com/vgcerf/status/1019987651301081089](https://twitter.com/vgcerf/status/1019987651301081089)
~~~
ipsum2
"Chief Internet Evangelist" sounds like a ceremonial position. When I was
working at Google, I had no idea who this person was or their position.
~~~
nostrademons
It is a ceremonial position, but this guy kinda deserves it. He literally
invented the Internet - not in the Al Gore sense, but as in the "co-designed
the initial version of TCP/IP" sense.
I don't think he actually did much at Google besides being a big
hiring/advocacy/PR draw, but Google's entire market wouldn't exist without
him. His tech talks were pretty fascinating too, while I was there.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How the Boring Company plans to disrupt tunnelling - utkarshohm
http://boringcompany.com/faq
======
Boothroid
If they did manage to hit 125 mph and if the tunnels were built over long
enough distances, couldn't these be a competitor to travelling by air for
shorter trips i.e. 1-2 hour flight times? You can go a long way at 125 mph in
the time that's not directly used in getting you to your destination i.e.
travel to airport, security, etc. etc.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Is Revenue-Based Funding Great for SaaS who's just starting? - artur_makly
I just found out about this model from https://www.lightercapital.com/how-it-works/<p>It seems appealing at first sight.. but has anyone been bitten by it?
======
justherefortart
Why would you need this company if you've got the necessary income already?
Just want to spend more than necessary?
Or is this a marketing post?
Based on the lack of information, I'm going with marketing.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How to delete all your files - maple3142
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/if1krd/how_to_delete_all_your_files/
======
garaetjjte
Unix Haters Handbook is still surprisingly up to date.
[http://web.mit.edu/~simsong/www/ugh.pdf](http://web.mit.edu/~simsong/www/ugh.pdf)
page 28 (68)
>Some Unix victims turn this filename-as-switch bug into a “feature” by
keeping a file named “-i” in their directories. Type “rm *” and the shell will
expand this to “rm -i filenamelist” which will, presumably, ask for
confirmation before deleting each file.
~~~
wutbrodo
Oh God that's like something I'd find on Cthulhu's computer
------
gnabgib
I think _Unix Wildcards Gone Wild (2014)_ [0] demonstrates and explains this
rather well (posted 6 and 4 years ago[1][2] - while HN supports reposting,
it's probably been posted enough)
[0]:
[https://www.defensecode.com/public/DefenseCode_Unix_WildCard...](https://www.defensecode.com/public/DefenseCode_Unix_WildCards_Gone_Wild.txt)
[1]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8189968](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8189968)
[2]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17376895](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17376895)
~~~
account42
Also posted 3 days ago [0].
[0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24220503](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24220503)
------
lucb1e
I once saw a friend nearly delete all their files using tip#3 from the thread:
> never use only * as a wildcard. A ./* would save you in most cases
My friend typod that for /* in an rm -rf command but caught it just in time.
They seemed like unnecessary characters to me if it does the same as *, and I
don't think they do it anymore, but now I'm not sure which is worse...
I suppose good backups just go a long way whatever you do.
~~~
powersnail
I just did that last weekend!
After an allnighter, which isn't easy for me anymore, I typed:
``rm -rf. /*``
with the dot and the space reversed.
When the shell threw an error in my face, I thought, "oh, an extra dot." so I
deleted the dot and re-run the command.
And there goes my configs and most of the dotfiles in my home dir. Luckily, I
have backup for some of those, so it wasn't a complete disaster.
I don't trust myself doing ``rm`` in commandline anymore.
~~~
pessimizer
This has nothing to do with the OP, but I always rehearse my deletions with
"ls -d", and after seeing the output hit the up arrow in my command history
and replace it with the rm command I wanted to attempt. I also never use -r
without intention - a lot of people use it habitually even when not deleting a
directory. Lastly, I never -f, I just chmod first.
~~~
SubiculumCode
I tend to use the command line utility tras-cli instead for these reasons. So
easy to screw up with a wild card.
------
0x0
You almost never need to use "*". Use ".", or go up a dir and type the name of
the dir.
~~~
mixmastamyk
Yes thanks. I thought running rsync with a "*" looked odd, but didn't
completely understand why until now.
~~~
mindslight
Funnily enough, rsync is one of the commands for which you might be more
tempted to use * instead of going up a directory, because the relative path
names go over the wire.
~~~
em-bee
besides ./* i also like to use _star_.ext or even a* b* c* depending on the
contents of the directory.
rsync also used the local/only/path/./local/and/remote/path convention where
the path before the /./ is not sent to the remote side
------
ziml77
There's a lot of operations from the command line that are too easy to screw
up. As much as I love having the power available and I'd certainly not give it
up, I can't deny that GUIs (or even just TUIs) are much safer since you can
visually validate the selection you've made and there's nothing to make a typo
on. They also tend to ask for confirmation on destructive actions or provide
an undo mechanism.
Maybe we need transactional file systems. At work, on our databases, when I'm
running an ad-hoc update or delete on something that's not trivial to recover
then in my DB tool I will often have something like:
BEGIN TRANSACTION
UPDATE ...
SELECT ...
-- COMMIT TRANSACTION
If the select validates that the update was good (and the update doesn't say
"1000000 rows updated"), I'll just highlight COMMIT TRANSACTION and hit run.
This isn't a perfect solution since I either need to hold the transaction open
or run the update twice (first time immediately followed by a rollback), but a
blip in accessibility is better than having to restore the latest nightly
backup and run any processes that updated the table since it was taken.
~~~
sk5t
If you're using postgres (and maybe others?) it can be handy to use the
"returning" keyword -- e.g. "update foo set x = y where z returning *" \-- to
get an immediate look at the updated rows. Maybe not so good though if
touching more than a few dozen rows intentionally.
------
tyingq
I mixed up dd's "of" and "if" args once when trying to image a disk. And of
course, it failed somewhere in the middle after borking something important.
~~~
netsharc
> At one point, Linus had implemented device files in /dev, and wanted to dial
> up the university computer and debug his terminal emulation code again. So
> he starts his terminal emulator program and tells it to use /dev/hda. That
> should have been /dev/ttyS1. Oops. Now his master boot record started with
> "ATDT" and the university modem pool phone number. I think he implemented
> permission checking the following day.
From [https://liw.fi/linux-anecdotes/](https://liw.fi/linux-anecdotes/)
But if and of are "easy", since they stand for "input file" and "output file"?
~~~
shellm1stakes
You'd think, but a lot of people blindly follow tutorials that Google gives
them.
As an example, here's my #2 result for, "Linux command line create bootable
usb drive from iso":
[https://www.tecmint.com/create-an-iso-from-a-bootable-usb-
in...](https://www.tecmint.com/create-an-iso-from-a-bootable-usb-in-linux/)
It instructs you to run this command, despite explaining what "if" and "of"
mean in the following paragraph:
>sudo dd if=/dev/sdb1 of=/home/tecmint/Documents/Linux_Mint_19_XFCE.iso
Proofreading is harder and less profitable than SEO.
~~~
netsharc
Actually that command seems accurate, because the instructions is to do the
reverse of what you googled - it's telling people "how to make an image from a
disk device", but in this case the image file has the ".iso" file extension.
But I agree about "copy paste instructions". I remember an intern at work
asking me how to switch between virtual terminals on Linux, I told her Ctrl-
Alt-Fx, I wanted to explain what virtual terminals are and how the shortcuts
are probably configurable, but at that point she already stopped listening...
------
rectang
I had a close call one time while trying to delete a directory `~/foo` and its
contents. Here's what I typed — can you spot the error?
rm -rf ~ /foo
I realized after a second or so and hit CONTROL-C. Nothing seemed to have been
deleted, so I think it may have been still winding up.
~~~
em-bee
hah, i had a tool where i configured ~/something as a target directory in its
config. except that the tool did not understand ~ and literally created a
directory named '~'
guess what i typed to remove it?
i lost a lot of work that day.
since then i developed the habit to always only use rmdir for directories, and
first go into the directory to remove files with rm.
i also avoid rm * by finding some common parts like an extension that most
files share.
i don't want rm * to be in my history where i might accidentally call it.
~~~
likeclockwork
Blender tried this on me a few months ago. I used mv to rename the directory
before deleting it though, the fear caught me as soon as I realized I had a
directory named ~ sitting in my home directory.
~~~
em-bee
it tried to blend in ;-)
mv is a clever idea. rename to something safe, which can be undone if you get
it wrong.
i use a similar approach when deleting a lot but not all files from a
directory. i first move the files into a new directory, double check that
every file is in the right place and then delete the new directory safely.
------
corpMaverick
My friend did a "rm * -i" and got back a '-i not found'
------
makecheck
While it takes significant extra effort, it’s more robust to carefully
decompose patterns into exact lists of files that can be reviewed (or use
"find"), and this has saved me a couple of times.
For example, expand wildcards into a separate list of files that can become
controlled commands ("rm -f A/file1", "rm -f A/file2", "rmdir A", ... instead
of "rm -Rf ..."). This way, if directory "A" contains _anything_ you didn’t
expect, the "rmdir" _fails_ at the end; and, someone can review the list of
proposed files to be deleted _before_ you run. Oh, and instead of having that
sinking feeling of "rm" taking “too long” to run, your command is merely in
the process of constructing a list of 1000 unexpected files instead of blowing
away half your disk with shocking efficiency.
Also, file lists are pretty useful when you need to make minor edits (e.g.
sometimes it’s a lot easier to find and exclude a few files from a list that
you don’t want to touch, as opposed to describing those in a wildcard or
search).
Depending on the task (and assuming no filesystem caching) it can be faster to
gather up a list once and pass the composed list in to a whole series of
commands. This is also good if you technically want the list to remain frozen
even if the filesystem is changing underneath you, e.g. new files being added
somewhere in the tree.
------
submeta
An `rm -rf ` always has the potential for some desaster. Especially if you are
calling it from bash history via `Ctrl + r` and hit return too fast without
editing the argument after `-rf`. Actually the rm command should move files
into a `~/.Trash` folder instead of immediately removing them.
~~~
ziml77
At least ctrl-r shows you what command you're about to execute. I often see
advice about character sequences in bash that expand to the last command or
arguments in the last command, but I have never felt comfortable using them
because I can't double-check the command.
~~~
mclehman
I have absolutely no clue what I've done to make it work this way (if
anything), but in zsh running a command with !$ (last word from the previous
command) I get the opportunity to edit the interpolated version first.
------
Someone
_“Because the share contains a file named exactly "\--delete", and since it
gets sorted first, rsync thinks it to be an argument and deletes everything.”_
Also because Unix made the mistake (edit: calling this a mistake may be
unfair) of having the shell expand wildcards. If it had provided a library for
doing that, the _“rsync thinks it to be an argument”_ part wouldn’t happen.
Alternatively, a file system could sort hyphens last when reading directory
entries, but I’m not sure that would be a good idea. It would make problems
rarer, but that also might mean fewer users would know when and how to avoid
them. It certainly wouldn’t help with other file systems.
~~~
jcrawfordor
Right, DOS expects wildcards to be handled by programs. Besides avoiding
problems from the shell expanding wildcards in problematic ways, this also
enables some neat semantics like some tools accepting wildcards in multiple
locations either for recursive path mapping or for a purpose similar to regex
capture groups. It also substantially reduces (but does not eliminate) the
need to be careful when including literal wildcard characters in commands.
The problem is of course that wildcard handling ends up being inconsistent
between tools or entirely missing, although in practice this became less
common as various Win32 calls related to file operations had internal wildcard
handling, so applications got a basic form "for free".
As with many things in computing it's hard to say that either approach is
superior to the other. PowerShell carries on the DOS tradition of not
expanding wildcards in the shell, but provides a more complete and
standardized wildcard implementation as part of the API to improve
consistency.
------
jml7c5
It's a shame that 'glob is a generator' did not become the standard way of
doing things. It would save so much headache (and make writing programs
easier) if
command *
(or similar syntax) expanded to something like
command /some/fd
where calls to
read(/some/fd)
produced
"expansion_one␀expansion_two␀expansion_three␀...␀"
Though exactly how one would plumb this is its own question.
~~~
makecheck
This is possible if you use "xargs" (which runs a command multiple times with
different subsets of the arguments), although it is most useful if commands
are aware of null-separation (e.g. old-style "find ... -print0 | xargs -0",
before "find" added the "+" option).
~~~
jml7c5
Yes, 'find -print0' / 'xargs -0' is the workaround that guided my thinking.
(Which was essentially "how can I make 'find -print0 |' easy enough to use all
the time, and flexible enough for more than one glob at a time?")
------
m463
I was once doing a lot of stuff to a disk with gnu parted. I popped out and
popped back in like this:
$ parted
<do a lot of work>
whoops, all the I erased and recreated were... my root disk!
I couldn't figure otu the partition table of the running disk, but I _was_
able to rsync all the data elsewhere and recover it.
IMHO if you invoke parted - WITH NO ARGUMENTS - it should not make a choice
for you.
------
pabs3
The canonical document about this sort of option injection attack:
[https://www.defensecode.com/public/DefenseCode_Unix_WildCard...](https://www.defensecode.com/public/DefenseCode_Unix_WildCards_Gone_Wild.txt)
BTW, shellcheck detects this sort of thing:
[https://www.shellcheck.net/](https://www.shellcheck.net/)
------
tryauuum
rsync -r ./ ~/Documents/
Why would I even need to use *, if I wanted all files from a directory?
~~~
jcrawfordor
Because rsync semantics around the trailing slash are a little confusing and
unusual, it's pretty common IME for people to intentionally explicitly define
paths to the file with rsync, in order to avoid having to look up which way
they need to write the target path.
~~~
0x0
Use a dot after the trailing slash and there is less confusion. "Blabla/."
means "(everything) in the Blabla directory". Fairly self-explanatory/un-
confusing and no need for "*"
------
redm
I would suggest people use the rsync --dry-run feature when using wildcards or
working on something sensitive.
~~~
commandlinefan
Or create a file _named_ —dry-run and save it everywhere...
------
brobinson
Shell globbing + filenames which happen to be switches is one of the first
things mentioned in the Unix Hater's Handbook IIRC
I guess every generation of Unix users will have to independently rediscover
this the hard way in perpetuity.
------
anonunivgrad
Another example of why shell languages are insane interfaces. Only someone who
works on writing shell scripts all day could keep in their head all the things
like this that could go wrong and how to defend against them.
~~~
mindslight
Sadly this is one of the sanest answers. ./* or always using -- are _coping
mechanisms_. We've internalized the UNIX warts so hard that we no longer
perceive them.
I've moved to writing scripts in python instead. It's horribly verbose, but at
least it's predictable and doesn't require the use of noisy disclaimers on
every call to defend against rare cases.
There's definitely a need for a terser sane scripting language, but I haven't
found one yet.
~~~
Shared404
I've started writing in Rust, and have a small function to pass a simple
string to "/bin/sh -c"
I can avoid most of the pitfalls of writing in sh, while still being able to
glue external programs together.
For the record, I'm only writing it in Rust because I enjoy it, not because
"Rust is the one true way".
------
seanwilson
Another classic is something like "rm -rf /$BUILD_DIR" when the variable is
undefined (maybe from a typo or from an argument not passed in).
~~~
garaetjjte
Nowadays avoided by GNU tools, though. (requires --no-preserve-root)
------
tedunangst
Nobody wants to talk about msdos?
~~~
29athrowaway
How do you provision hundreds of boxes using a UI?
...In a way that can be checked in source control and reviewed?
CLIs are not bad.
~~~
tedunangst
I apologize for saying CLIs are bad.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ways Startups Can Deal With Patent Troll Demands - iProject
http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/07/10-ways-startups-can-deal-with-patent-troll-demands/
======
tisme
Start-ups generally don't have a problem until they get into the making-money
or getting publicity stage. After that you'll pick up all kinds of parasites,
patent trolls are only one of the many classes these fall into, and they're
not nearly the most frequently encountered ones.
Look out for: rogue angels, investment bankers, bad partners, bad leave co-
founders and so on. Lots of people want a slice of the start-up pie without
pulling their weight.
~~~
StavrosK
What are rogue angels, and why are investment bankers bad?
~~~
tisme
Rogue Angel -> Angel that will use some of their money in order to get a bit
of stock which they then use in a minority shareholder lawsuit in order to try
to leverage that into a larger amount. Start-ups can't have distractions like
that so people that pull that stunt can hold you over a barrel. I've seen this
up close and it isn't pretty.
Investment bankers are not bad by definition, but on the whole they're worth a
lot less than they give themselves credit for. They presume to be an in-
dispensable part of the deal universe but in actual fact they can be as much
of a hindrance as they can be a help. Oh, and they _always_ want to be paid,
even when they don't perform at all.
~~~
StavrosK
I see, thanks. I didn't know about rogue angels, it's too bad such scammers
exist.
------
ericHosick
From time to time, my dad would be asked to answer alleged patent
infringements where he worked. He said he was able to easily deal with them by
looking at the initial claim of the patent and explaining that the initial
claim did X where as they did Y. That was good enough to stop any further
allegations of patent infringement.
This was 20+ years ago. Perhaps, in todays "market", lawyers would still push.
~~~
overbroad
I think there may be some merit to this. The assumption of the patent troll
may be that you will not look at their patents. (They are junk, remember?)
They may just assume you will believe you need to hire a patent attorney and
that the patents cannot even be assessed with so much as a sniff test without
first spending thousands of dollars. And the cost will scare you into
submission.
If you were to call the troll's bluff and go the distance (rare), eventually
your patent litigator that you are paying through the nose is going to be
challenging every possible claim in discussions with the troll's lawyers
before anyone steps foot in a courtroom. Chances of success in court are going
to be considered, and argued. The simple fact is the troll's chances might not
be so great. Why do so many cases settle? The troll only needs to scare you
into settling, and that's all. Mission accomplished.
I'd say the sooner you start asking those questions about the troll's chances,
the more pressure you put on the troll. They have to pay their lawyers, by
asking them to devote time to the matter, to deal with the questions in order
to maintain fear in you. Meanwhile, in asking these questions you haven't had
to pay any lawyers to look at the patents yet. (And they don't necessarily
know that.)
The whole patent trolling system is built on fear and the high expense of
patent litigation. Even for the most bogus patent claims, it can cost
thousands of dollars to have a court declare them as such. Take away that
expense, and the fear of having to pay it, and the trolling business goes
"Pfft."
------
hippich
If I will be small and troll persist - I will close and open new company.
If I will be big and troll persist - I move all operations out of USA except
office with sales people working on a contract.
What troll get from this - nothing. What USA get from this - negative tax
income. What will change for me - employer.
------
abcd_f
Has anyone here on HN been on a receiving end of such letters?
------
kevingadd
"Don’t make it easy for them. Require registration before granting access to
whitepapers, detailed documents, or video tutorials that delve into the
behind-the-scenes details. Think twice about being on customer lists or
advertising the ins and outs of your business, the products you use, etc.,
unless there’s a good business reason for doing so."
This seems like a great way to kneecap your business. Make it hard for
potential customers to evaluate you (so they end up choosing companies that
are more open), make it less likely that you will get positive buzz in tech or
press circles, make it less likely that people will feel confident about your
product as a result of understanding it, and make it harder for new customers
to learn how to use your product. All because you're afraid of patent suits!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
A veritable Venn diagram of beverages ... - RiderOfGiraffes
http://twitgoo.com/1zdeec
======
RiderOfGiraffes
Technically it's an Euler diagram, because not all intersections are shown:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler_diagram>
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Barcelona cracks down on Airbnb rentals with illegal apartment squads - kawera
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jun/02/airbnb-faces-crackdown-on-illegal-apartment-rentals-in-barcelona
======
malandrew
> Anti-tourist graffiti has begun to appear, with “No tourists past this
> point” painted on a street in the old city and “Why call it tourist season
> if we can’t shoot them?” near the popular Park Güell. In recent weeks,
> several hotels have also been attacked with stones and paint bombs.
Wow. This is shocking when Barcelona is a city that earns a sizable chunk of
revenue from tourism. The annual report published by the Barcelona Tourism
agency shows significant growth in tourism since 2000. With this in mind,
AirBnB appears to be used as a scapegoat here.
[http://professional.barcelonaturisme.com/imgfiles/estad/OTBC...](http://professional.barcelonaturisme.com/imgfiles/estad/OTBC_Informe_Anual_2015.pdf)
~~~
faragon
Anti-tourist movement in Barcelona is a minority, mainly from extreme-left
parties and activists from Catalan nationalist parties. I live in Barcelona,
and I'm ashamed of those xenophobic acts. My guess is that over 90% of
Barcelona population don't endorse such xenophobic attitude.
Despite being affected personally, e.g. because of tourism flat rental makes
generic rental to have huge price increases (15% year to year increase (!)),
I'm not against tourism, because tourism also means less unemployment, and
most people having a better situation. Also, having people from around the
world willing to visit the city where I live is amazing, and I'm very proud of
it. Being Spain still recovering from the long, huge, and terrible financial
and housing bubble crisis since 2007, I'm terrified with those radicals
blaming the tourists for a problem that should be fixed by local rulers.
In my opinion, the major of Barcelona city (not the province), Mrs Ada Colau
(former radical-left activist) should put her efforts into increasing housing
offer, so the demand-offer reaches a reasonable equilibrium (e.g. fiscal
discounts for empty flats put in the rental market, fiscal discounts for
building flats in former industrial places that are like ghost neighborhoods,
etc.).
From my side, you're very welcome to visit Barcelona as tourist, as worker, or
as whatever you want while you do more good than harm :-)
~~~
dnautics
It's kind of crazy because I suspect a large portion of the tourist crowd
(especially those from the us) would probably sympathize with Catalan
separatism.
~~~
faragon
I hope not. In my opinion, the Catalan separatist movement is clearly not
democratic (despite using agitprop equaling self-determination to democracy,
which is a fallacy), and often, xenophobic ("Spain robs us"). I hope that once
the economy gets fully recovered, nationalist people will go back to a more
rational position.
~~~
dnautics
How is "Spain robs us" xenophobic? I don't think when americans, for example
say, "washington robs us" that's xenophobic at all. It does xenophobic when
it's coupled to antitourist sentiment or excluding people from moving to
Catalonia (which I don't doubt it is, at the level of the political party)
> once the economy gets fully recovered.
I guess part of my point is that spain's economy won't recover so long as the
entrenched political class that feels like it's _entitled_ to the gains
catalonia's relatively performant economy.
The same pattern holds true with the EU writ large. For example the entirely
disingenous anti-austerity rhetoric in greece vs. germany: news flash,
austerity only hurts the poor when you direct the pain of deficit reduction
against the poorest and refuse to give up the sweet deals that fill the
pockets of rich politically connected interests.
------
mpblampo
I'm pretty sure "eye of the storm" refers to the calm in the center of a
hurricane. This writer seems to use it to mean that AirBNB is suffering the
worst damage.
~~~
sundaeofshock
"Amid growing evidence that the massive upsurge in tourist apartments is
driving rents up and residents out, the city has launched a crackdown on
illegal, unlicensed apartments, and Airbnb, the dominant platform, is in the
eye of the storm, although not the only offender."
Sure looks to me like the author is suggesting that Airbnb is is in the center
of a storm causing damage to the city of Barcelona.
~~~
algesten
Which I agree with. Airbnb is great when it's not run for profit. People
purchasing second homes to rent out are ruining nice places.
~~~
askAwayMan
Out the of the five I stayed in the past four years, they've all been second
homes rented out with the exception of one in Portland, Maine.
~~~
wcummings
Ive stayed in what could only be called illegal hotels in NYC. In one case I
was furnished with keys in a real estate/property mgmt office. Probably
depends a lot on your price point tbh.
------
jzl
Barcelona has had a huge market for apartment sharing since long before
Airbnb. I travelled there in 2000 and remember stepping off the train into the
train station and being bombarded with people offering a room to stay in their
place for a reasonable fee. As I knew from research this was going to happen
that's exactly what I planned on doing. I picked the most trustworthy-seeming
person I could find and stayed in their place for a week. Had an amazing time.
Full credit to Airbnb for bringing this process into the digital/smartphone
age, but the roots for this in some cities, like Barcelona, was always there.
------
bjl
Good. Hotels and hostels are for tourists, apartments should be for residents.
~~~
atemerev
Let the market decide. I am a resident, and I rent an apartment, but I have no
objection over AirBnB. Tourists are good. Spain's economy is struggling.
Renting an apartment to tourists via AirBnb is a lifesaver for some of my
friends in Barcelona, who lived for some time without the ability to find any
job (unemployment rates in Spain are ridiculous).
~~~
wrasee
That does kind of miss the whole point of the article. If you are a resident,
you rent an apartment, and pay an extra 23% that in part is due to the ease at
which firms like AirBnB let speculators buy up apartments and rent them out to
tourists for a profit.
Tourism is good for Spain, that's not lost on anyone. But the profits are not
evenly distributed. Not all social problems can be solved by the market.
~~~
atemerev
Why the profits should be "evenly" distributed? Even distribution is unfair.
Fairness is way more important than equality (in fact, "equality", if unfair,
is definitely something you wouldn't want to create).
If my friend can rent her apartment for some amount of money and it helps her
to survive jobless periods, why she (or I) should bother that somebody is
doing it on the larger scale for larger profits? Good for them. And preventing
these profits by prohibiting AirBnb will also kill her small income stream,
which is way more important to her than it is for the rich guys (who will just
invest freed money to something else).
------
msoad
I'm planning to visit Barcelona. Seeing all those anti-tourist signs makes me
wonder if I'll be welcome there.
It's funny how people of a city who earn lots of money from tourists hate the
tourists this much!
~~~
jacquesm
Yes, just imagine that a city tries to deal with being overrun. They don't
hate the tourists, they try to stay as organized as they can.
There is such a thing as being too popular and the tourists converging on
Barcelona are starting to make life for the people that live there harder and
harder (rising rents, for once thing).
You'll be more than welcome in Barcelona, it's a fantastic place to visit
though you'll have to count with insane waiting times at the various 'sights'
that are on every tourists 'must see' list.
But try to play by the rules if you can.
~~~
horsecaptin
I'm sure you are welcoming, but when the streets are painted with anti tourist
messaging, then "you'll be more than welcome" sounds a bit hollow.
~~~
jacquesm
I've been in Barcelona multiple times over the last few years and it's one of
my favorite cities. There are few places where the locals are as accommodating
towards tourists but there are limits to how big a proportion of tourists :
citizens you can have before there have to be some rules.
The fact that rent prices have jumped up tremendously to the point where
locals are pushed out of Barcelona to make way for yet more professionally run
AirBnB hotels (which are open 24x7 and all year round) does not help either.
If you see this as 'anti-tourist' imagine that the town or city where you
currently live becomes the next hot thing in tourism and you'll be forced to
go live somewhere else, or it will be impossible for you to get a spot on the
beach in your city and so on. Sooner or later you too would be a big proponent
of some reasonable restrictions.
I've seen some incredibly rude and downright criminal things in and near
Barcelona on account of people who were just there for a few days, if anything
the population is very restrained in how they are dealing with this,
_especially_ because it is for a large fraction of them their daily bread and
butter.
But I'm really not surprised by what is happening there, the same is happening
in many other tourist spots the world over (Amsterdam being another one, for
instance).
~~~
horsecaptin
I've lived in a handful of "next hot thing" towns. In the United States and
Canada and have yet to see anti-tourist stories that seem to originate out of
parts of Europe.
~~~
wott
Which "next hot thing" touristic towns are there in USA and Canada?
~~~
relyio
Paris, Texas!
------
olliej
That headline seems very ambiguous :)
------
faragon
No, because of tourist rentals are not enough for covering the local demand,
the problem is 10x bigger.
Regarding people needs, in my opinion the problem is that people in charge in
local government (Barcelona city) is not focused in solving the problems, but
in agitprop for increasing their own power (currently the extreme-left is
governing Barcelona in minority). Also, regional government (Catalonia) is
focused in doing separatist agitprop in order to hide their corruption. In top
of that, central government (government of the country, Spain) has no
competences to help in the housing problems, as most competences in that
regard are local/regional.
~~~
bcncit
Thank you for clarifying.
As a Barcelona citizen, I was with the impression that Spain's central
government furious attack against Catalonia people's right to self-
determination was to simply to distract the fact that the central government
party (Partido Popular) has over 900 politicians currently on trial with
charges of corruption (more than any other party in the whole Europe).
In fact, I thought central government's current situation was great material
for a potential sequel of a great movie. The sequel could be called "Wag the
Dog 2" with Robert de Niro as adviser of central goverment's president Mariano
Rajoy, who as you know will be forced to declare in one these trials for
corruption.
So, in your opinion the best solution for Barcelona is that Spain's central
government should take over and fix our housing issues in Barcelona?
Thanks in advance for elaborating on the reasons why you think it is a good
idea after the chaos they created in Barcelona's airport with something much
simpler as passport control.
~~~
faragon
You're a Spanish citizen, as there is no such thing as per-city citizenship in
Spain. BTW, you can twist the words at your convenience, if that makes you
happy.
~~~
bcncit
Currently, I am technically a Spanish citizen. I like people from Spain, their
food and their culture, and I even find it kind of cool that they have a king,
although I do not feel he is my king in any way.
When I watch a soccer game with the Spain's national team I can equally
celebrate a goal scored by them or against them if I like the goal. With
Catalonia's national team (who only are allowed to play once a year) or my
local team FC Barcelona (I even have a season ticket) the feelings are totally
different.
Also I do not feel at all the Spanish flag is my flag. To be frank, I even
have a sense of foreigness when I look at the Spanish flag, possibly because
it still somehow suggests repression to me.
I strongly believe that people in Catalonia should have the right of self-
determination. The culture, the language, even the traits are distinct enough
to deserve it, and not be bullied because of it.
That Catalan people have the right of self-determination does not mean that
all Catalan people who think they should have that right would vote to leave
Spain.
I am totally neutral about if the outcome of a referendum is to leave Spain or
to stay in Spain (both things have upsides and downsides at short and long
term), but I'm not neutral about Catalonia's people having the right of self-
determination, we should have it.
~~~
faragon
You can believe in whatever you want, have aversion to symbols, think how
special you are vs other co-citizens, etc.: your free-speech is protected by
the Spanish Constitution, the UE, and the UN. Mine is protected, too, and in
my opinion the Catalan region culture is pretty similar to the culture of the
rest of Spain, and the ones painting the Catalan region as "different", in the
ethic sense, lie, or simply don't consider the majority of the Catalan
population as human beings having the same rights (check Catalan people
family-names: are in the same proportion as the rest of Spain; you can check
also religion, gastronomy, even trash-TV show taste is similar to the Spanish
average, etc.).
Regarding the "Catalan people", I am "Catalan people", too, and the only
oppression I see in the Catalan region is the one pushed by the Catalan
regional government towards forcing uniform ethnic brainwash from public
administration and schools, in Catalan-only, instead of bilingual Spanish-
Catalan. A reminder: not only Catalan-speakers -mother tongue- (35% of
inhabitants of the Catalan region) have rights, Spanish-speakers (55% of
inhabitants of the Catalan region) have rights, too. So next time you fight
for your rights, be sure you're really fighting for your rights (I would
endorse you), and not for quitting/removing/stealing other people's rights (I
would not endorse you). Respect works both ways.
Kind regards.
~~~
bcncit
Sorry, I believe I misunderstood you. I thought you were _against_ granting
the right of self-determination to Catalan people, that is, the people who
lives in Catalonia whatever language they speak. I did not catch that you
endorsed fighting for rights.
Just wanted to clarify that I do not particularly support all Catalan
Government policies, in fact, just a few of them.
There are many important other rights that need to be addressed such as the
right to die with dignity (this is long overdue) or the right receiving
education in your language, at least for major languages such as Catalan,
Spanish, Arabic or English.
Please note that this is not an issue only local to Barcelona, this is an
issue that also face people who speak Catalan, English or Arabic at home and
live, for example, in Madrid and only receive education in Spanish (is that
also "uniform ethnic brainwash"!?).
My guess is that authorizities in Barcelona or Madrid do not grant this right
as to avoid segregation, but we will not know unless they try it and see
actual segregation. The other alternative of teaching everybody evenly in all
significant languages in our society (Catalan, Spanish, Arabic and English)
might overwhelm kids.
I'm not sure if you have any actual experience with the Catalan education
system or just read about it on the yellow press and that build your opinion
to define it "uniform etnic brainwash". Would you share if you have any actual
experience with it and what impact it had on you or your children?
In my actual experience, my three children have been fully exposed to the
"uniform ethnic brainwash" Catalan education and IMHO, their Spanish is better
than their Catalan is, even when we speak Catalan at home. They have some
knowledge of English, but they have no knowledge of Arabic.
~~~
faragon
You can twist the words whatever you want, if that makes you happy. The self-
determination right is only for very specific cases according the UN, and the
Catalan region does not qualify for that. Also, the EU representatives have
been very clear in that regard, as being an internal issue of Spain, and the
Spanish Parliament already voted, including a majority of Catalan
representatives, against a hypothetical secession, because being against the
Constitution. For being short, I do support the Spanish Constitution, the rule
of law, the Spanish government, the European Union, the NATO, and the United
Nations.
~~~
bcncit
The very same could be said about women being able to vote, same sex marriage
or in the US a black guy using the same restrooms as white people or being the
POTUS.
All these things were illegal by laws backed and supported by the highest,
most sensible and most respected authorities back in the time, even during
centuries.
But it was the determination of people to be able to make all these illegal
things fully legal nowadays. This is progress.
If people wants, anything is possible. Laws are to serve people, and if they
do not work, they should be changed.
People can even change a constitution.
To help you fully understand the context, the Spanish constitution was written
only 3 years after a military dictatorship that lasted 40 years (2
generations) with many people afraid of the military coming back and the
police charging in people's demonstrations.
I do not know if you ever have had to run in a demonstration with a policeman
running behind you with a gun with a clear intent to shoot you. I did and
believe me, it is really scary. You even develop a sense of foreigness for
certain symbols.
The Spanish constitution can and should be changed to meet the needs of people
in the 21st century. The one we have now is the bastard child of the turmoil
after the military dictatorship.
~~~
faragon
The US made a war against the "White Separatism" (Confederate States of
America), in order to protect the US Constitution and citizen rights. Even in
more recent times, e.g. in 1955 the US Constitution protected Rosa Parks
against those same xenophobic supremacists that lost the American Civil War,
and were using their regional power in order to impose ethnic totalitarianism.
So think your argument twice, and think if you're really on the side of the
"good ones", defending individual rights, or on the ethnic totalitarian side,
defending "tradition" vs civil rights. Another example: the National Guard (US
Army) forced the acceptance of black students, in order to ensure their
rights, honoring the US Constitution, and the rule of law. In the same way, I
hope the Spain Constitution will prevail, ensuring the rights of the citizens.
For the long term, I wish some kind of United States of Europe, for even
better civil rights protection, against disloyal regional administrations with
a hidden ethnic/separatist agenda against the rule of law (e.g. like current
French and German legislations, where disloyal/separatist regional governments
are explicitly forbidden in their Constitutions).
~~~
bcncit
I love immigration. I loved it when it was people from Spain 30 or 40 years
ago and I love it now from other countries, such as Morocco, China, Pakistan
or Europe, both legal and illegal. I helped illegal immigrants with their
paperwork to become legal immigrants. I do believe that the avalanche of ex-
pats that decided to settle in Barcelona in the last 50-years has allowed
Catalans to enjoy a more cosmopolitan environment. I even hired some of these
ex-pats.
I thought about twice per your request, and I'm afraid that with my support
for Catalonia's self-determination rights I'm defending individual rights.
Otherwise, I would become the first ethnic totalitarian on Earth who loved
immigration and helped immigrants to settle.
How do you like immigration yourself? I'm asking because the Head of the
Partido Popular (Spanish central government) in Catalonia hates it [1], he is
a declared xenophobe and such proneness to xenophobia often permeates to other
supporters of Partido Popular and similar right-wing parties.
[1]
[http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2015/07/28/catalunya/1438078282_...](http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2015/07/28/catalunya/1438078282_063848.html)
~~~
faragon
You "love" immigration, but you endorse the monolingual Catalan school,
despite being the language of a minority of the citizens in the region. Great
"democracy" example (democracy is not just "voting" -many dictatorships
allowed to "vote" to cut rights-, is the rule of law and respecting people's
rights).
For your information, I do like immigration, and I'm in favor of trilingual
school in the Catalan region of Spain (Spanish, Catalan, English), and the
more immigration coming to Spain, the better for the country, that would mean
that the economy is recovering and people is willing to bet for it. BTW, you
can not judge an organization based on the opinions of one person (even if
what you say about that person could be true, or not). Xenophobe examples by
the Catalan nationalism are endless.
I know the Catalan nationalism arguments, and I can dismount them one by one.
So you're wasting your time with your propaganda on me.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Report [pdf] - ics
http://www.ag.ny.gov/pdfs/Airbnb%20report.pdf
======
dwg
Missing tax revenue is one thing, but it's also worth checking out the summary
of safety laws and complaints in the appendix. Much public discussion focuses
on legality from a tax perspective, but there are legitimate concerns related
to the ability of the existing infrastructure to safely/sanely handle a huge
rise in transient rentals.
I'm a supporter of AirBnB. The way I look at the problem is not as a "fight"
between innovation and politics, bur rather as a chance for an innovative
player like AirBnB to come up with a solution to the concerns that would "push
the envelope" in everyones favor. I'm sure by this point they have already
amassed a ton of expertise on the issue. Now they need to start delivering
solutions to keep their business moving forward.
~~~
nostromo
I wonder if Airbnb is really hurting the tax base at all.
One of the best things about Airbnb is it has made travel more accessible to
the young and the working-class. When those people visit NYC, they shop, they
eat out, they see shows. All of those things are taxed.
I would bet that the sale tax for all of those things would more than make up
for a loss in hotel tax revenue, if you presume that some percent of visitors
would not visit if they had to pay for a traditional hotel.
Unfortunately few legislatures and regulators think this way. They spend too
much time thinking about how to take a larger portion of the pie and not much
time thinking about how to make the pie bigger.
NYC government also seems to think they'll be able to put the genie back in
the bottle -- I think they're wrong. Airbnb has proven this is a huge market
-- if they go under, they'll be replaced by a solution that is harder to
regulate.
~~~
mesh
Do you have a reference for this?
In my recent case, I went to a tech conference in LA, and shared an AIRBNB
with 3 others. Normally, combined we would have paid $750 a night in hotels
($250 each), but instead we spent $500 total a night.
However, we didnt use this extra money to go out. Instead, since we now had a
kitchen, we didn't go out as much (and spent) way less that we would have had
we stayed in a hotel.
Overall, I would say we spent about $2500 less total in LA by staying in an
AIRBNB, as opposed to if we would have stayed in a hotel.
Now, for the larger economy this is good, as I now have money to spend
elsewhere, but, I think you could argue that at least in this case, the LA
economy lost money.
~~~
spikels
The argument would be that by making it cheaper to visit means more people
would go (supply up -> lower prices, higher demand). So even though you spent
less, more people are visiting and spending and thus total visitor spending
rises.
This seems to be the case in NYC[1]. Despite growth of AirBnB visitors,
visitor spending and even hotel occupancy are up. And it's possible these
stats may miss many AirBnB visitors - not sure hot they are collected but
likely based of hotel occupancy.
[1] [http://www.nycgo.com/articles/nyc-statistics-
page](http://www.nycgo.com/articles/nyc-statistics-page)
~~~
opendais
I'm concerned you casually ignore:
Visitors (international and domestic) to New York City in 2009: 45.8 million
Visitors (international and domestic) to New York City in 2008: 47.1 million
Guess when AirBnb became Airbnb.com and popular in NYC? 2009.
I realize correlation != cause but you are claiming a similar argument. Now,
you could blame the recession...except it was 2008 when it was at its worst.
~~~
spikels
That's just cherry picking the one down year. 2009 was the worst of the
recession and AirBnB was tiny in 2009 relative to today. As AirBnB grew so did
visitors.
Visitors (int'l & domestics)
2013: 54.3 million
2012: 52.7 million
2011: 50.9 million
2010: 48.8 million
2009: 45.8 million
2008: 47.1 million
More interesting is that visitor spending and hotel prices and occupancy also
did well. I agree that while none of this is definitive proof on anything.
However it is not consistent with AirBnB seriously harming either hotels or
visitors. Appears to be a win-win.
~~~
opendais
Over 6 years = 54.3-47.1=7.2 2002-2007 = 46-35.3=10.7
Hmm. Now you can blame the great recession but growth did slow.
So lets take 2011 to 2013 [after the Great Recession]: 54.3-50.9 = 3.4 And
2003 to 2005: 42.7-37.8 = 4.9
Notice the difference?
You can't claim this supports your position without cherry picking the data.
Its completely worthless.
~~~
spikels
"If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything." \- Ronald
Coase
~~~
opendais
My point is the data is worthless to support your claim. Comparing time
periods isn't "torturing the data".
------
gdilla
I'm an AirBnB host in NYC, and this report makes clear that there is rampant
abuse in NYC by landlords acting as hotels. This drives up rents for residents
as it reduces supply of long term housing and inflates landlords expectations
on what they can charge. I like Airbnb for how well it enables buyers and
sellers to come together and transact. I don't know what a good solution is.
Either charge hotel tax or get rid of hotel taxes for actual hotels so they
can better compete on price? I don't know.
I'm not sure Airbnb is doing themselves any favors by not cooperating with the
AG, however. The 'Commercial Users" are operating secret hotels and getting
away with it.
~~~
o0-0o
I live in Manhattan below a previous AirBNB host that was thrown out of our
building by management. Her _guests_ flooded my apartment twice, causing
thousands of dollars of damage to my property. How do I go about getting
reimbursed for these items?
~~~
smackfu
Well, from your perspective, I don't see why it matters whether the damage to
you was done by your neighbor or by your neighbor's guests. It's still the
neighbor's responsibility.
~~~
tptacek
It does matter. Revolving-door short term tenants drastically increase the
risk of incidents like this, as you'd find out immediately if you tried to
insure against them. Renters are routinely required to carry some degree of
insurance. If Airbnb adoption meant near-universal requirements to carry
punishing insurance coverage, that's yet another externality they'd be
inflicting on the market.
(I like Airbnb but see how fraught it is, too).
~~~
mbreese
It does matter, but less to you and more to your insurance company.
It's more like the your renter's insurance company would sue the neighbor's
company for a claim. However, since the neighbor was renting out the apartment
as an Airbnb property, then their standard renter's insurance was probably
invalid at the time. So now your insurance company would sue the neighbor
directly and may not be able to pay.
The long term implications are that renter's insurance costs will go up for
everyone in that market.
I've long thought that the biggest problem with Airbnb wasn't the tax issue,
or even landlords abusing the system and running mini-hotels. It was
insurance. I suspect that none of the hosts who aren't physically present (and
even some who are) are violating their insurance policy, and if there is a HOA
or other sort of shared space, that insurance policy would also be violated.
If hosts had to actually pay the true costs of insurance, the cost savings
between traditional hotels and Airbnb would be much smaller. Now, if Airbnb
actually offered the insurance to the hosts, or maintained it themselves, that
would be something. But that would be fraught with fraud issues over such a
wide market.
But insurance isn't a sexy topic...
~~~
tptacek
The problem is that nobody can predict whether a tenant is going to abuse
their lease to host short-term tenants for money. When their insurer refuses
to pay up because they lied about how they use their space, there won't be any
recourse through the tenant; bankrupt is bankrupt. The way around this is to
require tenants to obtain expensive coverage on the _presumption_ that they'll
Airbnb the space.
------
psuter
Very factual and concise (the report is 15 pages excluding appendices). As may
have been known, the AG does not apparently care about users renting out
shared rooms (or at least, one at a time). Some salient points below.
> 1,406 hosts (six percent) acted as "Commercial Users," running larger
operations that administered from three to 272 unique units
> In 2013, over 4,600 unique units were each booked as private short-term
rentals for three months of the year or more. Of these, nearly 2,000 units were
each booked as private short-term rentals on Airbnb for at least 182 days — or
half the year. While generating $72.4 million in revenue for hosts, this
rendered the units largely unavailable for use by long-term residents. [...]
Units dedicated primarily or exclusively to private short-term rentals accounted
for an increasing share of revenue over time.
> [The] 10 most-booked private short-term listings on Airbnb in 2013 [...] averaged
1,920 booked nights *each*.
~~~
reustle
> While generating $72.4 million in revenue for hosts
Revenue, not profit
~~~
psuter
Of course, just like my rent is not pure profit for my building management
company. The real question is, at what price were these units put up for rent
on Airbnb, and how does it compare to market rents? The GA report says they
cannot know because of the data anonymization.
------
volandovengo
AirBnB has added a crazy number of prompts letting you know that you are
probably in violation in the law when you attempt to list a place in NYC.
Between income tax, hotel tax + the likelihood of the govt or management
company coming after you, I think AirBnB is looking a little less enticing to
regular people in NYC to rent their homes.
------
sammyo
What happens to AirBnB when the the NYC hosts file a class action suit to
recover the 33 Million?
Found a very inexpensive Brooklyn AriBnB for one night JFK run and it was
clearly a hostel for international students. At least six beds in the room,
was never sure how many rooms.
------
7Figures2Commas
> As depicted in Figure 3 below, the 300,891 reservations that appear to
> violate the building use and zoning laws yielded approximately $304 million
> for hosts during the Review Period. Airbnb itself earned almost $40 million
> in fees from these transactions. _This represents approximately two out of
> every three dollars Airbnb received in connection with the Reviewed
> Transactions._
> New York City Is Likely Owed Millions in Unpaid Hotel Taxes from Private
> Short-Term Rentals. A number of taxes may apply to private short-term
> rentals. See Appendix A. In particular, New York City assesses a hotel room
> occupancy tax of 5.875 percent that applies to private short-term rentals.
> _Excluding fines and penalties_ , the total estimated liability for hotel
> room occupancy taxes associated with the Reviewed Transactions is over $33
> million.
> Few Airbnb hosts appear to have filed the paperwork with New York City
> necessary to remit hotel room occupancy taxes, nor did Airbnb collect any of
> the hotel taxes owed for the Reviewed Transactions.
If it ever files to go public, the Risk Factors section of Airbnb's S-1 is not
going to be pretty.
Obviously, it could get very ugly for Airbnb and its hosts in cities where
officials don't offer a free pass like San Francisco. Right now, it looks like
New York City is out for blood and is not going to follow San Francisco's
lead. But even if you assume that Airbnb and hosts receive get out of jail
free cards in many cities, as regulation catches up to the market, it's quite
possible that Airbnb will see less supply _and_ less demand.
On the supply side, hosting is only going to get more complex and costly. That
will obviously convince some hosts to leave the market. Many of the illegal
commercial operators who have been violating the law and not paying taxes will
either move on or get shut down, and limits like the ones imposed in San
Francisco will also work to reduce the legitimate inventory.
On the demand side, the need to deal with red tape and tax compliance will
likely remove some of the savings that hosts have been able to pass on to
their guests. Obviously there's a segment of the guest market that prefers the
Airbnb experience, but there's almost certainly a large(r) segment that
chooses to use Airbnb primarily because of cost.
This is the irony of many of the "sharing" economy and "on demand"[1]
startups: once their primary competitive advantage is removed (reduced costs
from flouting of laws), the economics of their businesses could change for the
worse, literally overnight. For those already operating at a large enough
scale, an implosion is a real possibility.
[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8468863](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8468863)
~~~
smackfu
I'm not clear why AirBnb isn't passing through the taxes. I know their system
supports it. We recently rented from AirBnB in Portland Oregon and we paid an
extra $65 in "Occupancy Taxes" on a $521 stay.
~~~
krschultz
That is a Portland specific thing. AirBnB is now negotiating city by city tax
handling, they just worked something out with SF recently. It doesn't sound
very scalable, but now that AirBnB is the incumbent, it's a barrier to entry
for anyone that tries to disrupt them.
Funny how that works, exploit a loophole in a law, and when you get big
enough, then make it way more expensive for everyone else to come in after you
and cite it as a competitive advantage.
~~~
apaprocki
They can't do the same with NYC because the entire premise of AirBnB is
illegal in NYC unless specific conditions are met. Since 72% of listings are
technically illegal, there is no way they would shed 72% of listings just to
make the remaining 28% tax compliant. This is why many view them negatively --
they blatantly facilitate illegal transactions. The fact that they are doing
tax deals with other cities only underscores that they clearly know their
users are violating NYC law.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: Medium for programmers - parvbhullar
https://recalll.co/
======
joshtronic
Expected to see a login with Github (and/or other repo hosting services)
button considering the type of user you're attempting to attract.
~~~
parvbhullar
valid point.
------
minimaxir
Er, Medium is the Medium for programmers. How does this differentiate?
~~~
parvbhullar
The main difference - You can maintain knowledge hierarchy for topics, which
differentiate it from Medium. Second, is collecting the bits and pieces for
topics i.e. videos code snippets and sub topics. In Other words, Topics are
root level topic for anything(Initially we are targeting only programmers),
under a topic you can create sub topics i.e. video, note, code snippet, how
to, best practice to explain a topic better. You can also create sub topics
under topics to maintain the knowledge hierarchy.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Google on today’s massive Google+ spam influx: “We ran out of disk space” - suneliot
http://venturebeat.com/2011/07/09/google-on-massive-google-spam-influx-we-ran-out-of-disk-space/
======
ChuckMcM
Interesting. Given the minimum size of a Colossus cluster I find the
explanation Vic gives unsatisfying. That being said I'm pretty impressed with
the overall product, it is the best attempt yet to unseat Facebook, and I
predict it will if Facebook can't come up with a credible response quickly.
The killer feature is that its blended with Gmail, and since a lot of people
keep gmail open all the time it means you get notified and you see stuff. Not
as common to keep one's facebook page open.
~~~
mlinsey
_since a lot of people keep gmail open ... Not as common to keep one's
facebook page open._
Do you have data on this? I'd think it would be close, if not the opposite.
Edit for clarification:
In my social circles, what you said is probably true, but I know many others
use FB messages more than email (any email, not just gmail). Facebook has more
pageviews total, and Facebook has probably around 3X as many active users (I
couldn't find numbers at the same point in time, Gmail was at around 200
million last November as per the WSJ, Facebook was at 500 million last July
and 750 million last week)
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that G+ notifications in Gmail (and on
Google Search!) is hugely powerful, and will mean G+ engagement among its
users will stay quite high. But when you talk about "unseating" Facebook, you
have to first come to grips with just how entrenched it is, compared to social
networks that rose and fell before it. It is so entrenched that Gmail
integration alone will not be enough - Facebook is substantially bigger than
Gmail.
~~~
ChuckMcM
You are correct in that I was generalizing when I should not have been.
I've used Google Apps for work and since a lot of communication comes through
email that means Gmail is open (or at least getting notifications with the
talk gadget). I would not be surprised if you were correct that many folks
leave Facebook open all the time.
~~~
riffraff
it's worse than that: among my non technical friends email is used only for
"serious stuff" as talking with teachers (or students, for my friends who
teach) and for work. For the others facebook messages have supplanted email.
I am obviously not sure this is a global trend, but I keep using the test "who
did you receive an email from, recently, who isn't work or a fellow technical
person?". Results are somewhat scary.
~~~
wisty
Yeah, email is now the snail-mail of the mid-2000s.
~~~
ChuckMcM
Interesting, this means the spammers will have to change venues to reach that
part of their demographic. That should be giving them something to think
about.
------
tybris
Not so long ago hard disk space was abundant, then programmers realized hard
disk space was abundant.
------
adaml_623
Shouldn't there be a Beta tag on the Google Plus icon. Perhaps they left it on
Gmail for so long they didn't think anybody would pay attention to it anymore.
------
craigmccaskill
Some quick napkin math on numbers:
If you're to believe Eric Schmidt when he says 'millions' and put that at 3
million users (being generous), guessing that each user uploads 20 megabytes
of content (again, generous) thats:
3x10^6 × 20 MB
6x10^7 MB or
60TB
Sanity check or does that not seem like a lot of resources to allocate to a
project of this size?
Edit: formatting
~~~
carbonica
60TB? That's about a couple grand worth of space. Why would that be a lot of
space to Google?
~~~
whiskers
Even using 3TB consumer grade SATA disks you'd need 20 of them, an enclosure
for 20 disks costs a _lot_ more than a couple of grand.
~~~
moe
Not really.
[http://shopping.yahoo.com/721280117-supermicro-
sc216-e2-r900...](http://shopping.yahoo.com/721280117-supermicro-
sc216-e2-r900ub-system-case/)
~~~
whiskers
That's a chassis for 2.5" disks so you'd be looking at 60x1TB disks, and that
would mean 3 of those enclosures. Now rack them somewhere and add power -
still much more than a couple of grand, we haven't even paid for the disks
yet...
~~~
carbonica
Yeah, I was a tad hyperbolic in just referring to the disks. I would expect
the costs to be around $20/GB/year when you also factor in power - bigger
drives are making a difference, but the other factors always cost more than
the disks themselves.
It doesn't change the fact that 60TB is _tiny_ for a company whose every
product involves storing enormous quantities of data and serving them at
monstrous scale.
~~~
ChuckMcM
And according to the GFS paper their are three copies of every chunk in a GFS
cluster so that is 180TB, and they probably don't depend on one GFS cluster to
meet their availability guidelines so if you had two that is really 320TB
(180TB * 2).
And the amazing part is if you are in an open event where Google is talking
about their infrastructure in general terms you will realize that that has to
be mouse nuts compared to the amount of 'spinning rust' they have going on at
any one time.
------
oflannabhra
So I guess "field testing" is the new beta testing? Google watered down beta
by applying it to finished products to the degree that they've had to invent a
new term to fill its function.
------
benologist
I still have this happen, and every time I tell myself right, today I'm going
to put in a warning system that'll stop this happening .... and then I clear
up a ton of space and move on.
HTTP.sys logging has been a real pain in my ass, every time I deploy a new
server I forget to disable it and we do so much traffic it fills the drive
completely overnight.
~~~
jackowayed
Sounds like you need to automate setting up a new server
~~~
pavel_lishin
Or at least automate the logging process. 5-minute log monitor that compresses
old logs, and maybe moves them off the system onto a cloud server once space
starts to run out, while also e-mailing the people responsible.
~~~
benologist
Yep that would help, notifications are built into about 1/2 my platform now
... gradually getting them more robust. :)
------
staunch
Running out of disk space is probably the single biggest category of server
problem that occurs.
------
robryan
Seems today and yesterday (for me and those I have invited anyway) there has
been no issue with creating an account straight away. So I'm guessing this has
sent the total users on the service up pretty fast.
------
senthilnayagam
running out of diskspace is devops 101, it is high time these colossus
startups start publishing which CMM level standard they meet
~~~
vegai
Are you joking?
~~~
senthilnayagam
no, I am pretty serious, down votes dont change reality. there are
apps/services which are signing on 99.999% availability.
if after having a expertise in managing 200million+ gmail accounts, I would
consider it a bad fumble at 5 million+ users
~~~
laz
Mentioning devops undermines your credibility. What service is 5 nines? How is
that measured?
In general, Google SRE just gets it done. Sometimes people screw up. It
happens.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Apple's Mobile Rules To Get FTC Scrutiny - 16g
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703509404575301242754089172.html?mod=WSJASIA_newsreel_technology
======
jsz0
_"However, some antitrust enforcers say that if they wait until a tech company
has cornered a market it may be too late"_
Sounds like the plot for a boring sequel to Minority Report. Makes me wonder
how much money/influence is being moved behind the scenes here. Good to have
friends in high places?
------
Steltek
Abusive Monopoly is not necessarily Anti-Competitive Practice
You don't need to be a full blown monopoly for the FTC to take action, it's
just the easier thing to prosecute. Price dumping, collusion, cartels, etc are
all easy examples of where the FTC would step in where a monopoly is not
involved.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Pyquery 0.2 : jQuery for Python - iamelgringo
http://pypi.python.org/pypi/pyquery
======
epoweripi
Sounds a lot like ruby's hpricot.
Wish I saw this earler - I am already in the middle of a project (screen
scraping of course) using hpricot.
Sounds weird, but the only reaason to pick ruby for me was hpricot and not RoR
:)
~~~
draegtun
Yes its like Ruby's Hpricot and also Perl's pQuery. This jQuery way of
accessing XML/HTML is certainly catchy!
------
thomasmallen
The whole point of jQuery is to serve as a substitute for the DOM, allowing
scripts to efficiently interact with page elements. If you're running this via
a Python script, you already control each and every bit of your page code.
What's the point? I can only see this being useful in Python for screen
scraping.
~~~
joseakle
Scraping with BeautifulSoup works pretty well, but i've had a lot of problems
with nested elements with no id since Xpath is not available on BeautifulSoup.
Perhaps this would make it a little easier. I'll report back after trying it.
~~~
nevare
For the time being it doesn't use the BeautifulSoup parser so it may not work
on very bad html, but I'll add an option an option to use it.
------
babyshake
I like this, but have no clue how I would use it beside for some BeautifulSoup
page manipulation....
~~~
tdavis
For parsing XML responses? lxml is better than BeautifulSoup in terms of
performance and memory usage.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Libya’s Central Bank forgot the code to a safe containing $184m worth of coins - jackgavigan
http://www.wsj.com/articles/libyas-central-bank-needs-money-stashed-in-a-safe-problem-is-officials-dont-have-the-code-1463153910
======
dlgeek
I'm confused by this whole thing. Due to a political fight, they can't get the
combination from the parties who have it recorded, so their solution is "hire
a super-duper safecracker team" \- and then "drill a hole big enough for the
safecracker to access the inside". It doesn't make any sense. Vaults and safes
are simply a way to delay an attacker, they're not impenetrable fortresses.
If you've got physical and local political control over the vault and a
timeframe measured in weeks, you should be able to use simple standard
construction techniques to drill/cut through the concrete and access it just
fine - no special Hollywood techniques needed.
------
1812Overture
Calling it now. They're going to have a Geraldo moment when they open that
vault.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Why NonExperts are Better at Disruptive Innovation - aespinoza
http://singularityhub.com/2012/07/13/rethinking-the-concept-of-%e2%80%9coutliers%e2%80%9d-why-non-experts-are-better-at-disruptive-innovation/
======
DenisM
The article's author failed to provide any evidence to support his key premise
"Non-Experts are Better at Disruptive Innovation". It would be nice to have a
_substantial_ discussion on this interesting topic.
~~~
ippisl
Usually , a disruptive innovation is a combination of a new technology and a
new business model. Being an expert in the old technology or business model
becomes less helpful.
At the beginning you mostly don't compete on the same customers.With time,
when you start competing on the same customers, you can hire experts.
~~~
DenisM
Yes, it's a compelling narrative. Where's the evidence though?
The problem with the narrative is that I can come up with an opposite
narrative: "fresh perspective is important to come up with a new direction,
but only an insider has the skills/experience/connections/market
knowledge/capital/etc to finish the new direction, therefore all innovation is
done by insiders". Now we have two compelling narratives, both of which cannot
be true at the same time. We're not advancing our understanding of the
innovation process.
It's all empty rhetoric until the evidence is laid out.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Green Book Map - Thevet
http://publicdomain.nypl.org/greenbook-map/
======
marcusgarvey
I'm glad this exists. I think it's important to point out: it's not just that
black travelers had to find places to stay overnight that were welcoming
because Jim Crow laws meant that many hotels and boarding houses only accepted
whites. It has as much to do with the fact that there were (are?) towns known
as sundown towns, as in
>signs posted at their city limits reading, typically, "Nigger, Don't Let The
Sun Go Down On You In ___."[1]
It wasn't just about finding a warm smile to greet you and a place to lay your
head. It was about saving your black life by helping make sure you didn't find
yourself at night in one of these sundown towns.
It was not / is not just in the southern U.S., as the link below attests.
[1]
[http://sundown.afro.illinois.edu/sundowntowns.php](http://sundown.afro.illinois.edu/sundowntowns.php)
~~~
marcusgarvey
From a resolution passed last year by Goshen, Indiana, disavowing its past as
a sundown town.
A RESOLUTION ACKNOWLEDGING THE RACIALLY EXCLUSIONARY PAST OF GOSHEN, INDIANA,
AS A 'SUNDOWN TOWN'
WHEREAS the Preamble to the Constitution of the United States of America and
the Pledge of Allegiance to the U.S. Flag establish liberty and justice for
all in this nation;
WHEREAS the U.S. Census reported that the “Negro” population of Goshen in 1890
was 21, but by 1910 it was 2;
WHEREAS historical studies by multiple independent researchers confirm that
Goshen was a “sundown town” for approximately the first two-thirds of the 20th
century;
WHEREAS such towns excluded—often by social and cultural means, including
police profiling—members of non-white racial and ethnic groups, particularly
African Americans, from living in said jurisdictions or even being inside the
city limits after sundown;
WHEREAS the Goshen City Utility, the Goshen Mayor’s Office, and the Goshen
Chamber of Commerce put the City’s exclusionary reputation in writing in a
number of publications from the mid-1930s to the late 1970s;
WHEREAS some real-estate developers and residents of Goshen subdivisions used
and reinforced restrictive language in property deeds and covenants that kept
African Americans from purchasing property and living in those subdivisions
for several decades in the 20th century;
WHEREAS there is written, oral, and pictorial documentation that some Goshen
residents did not support Goshen’s exclusionary attitudes and practices, but
there also is written, oral, and pictorial documentation that a pro-white
mentality prevailed among some of Goshen’s citizenry and leadership for many
decades in the 20th century;
WHEREAS the Goshen Ministerial Association (GMA) in 1964 issued a public
statement expressing dismay regarding residents’ fears of “Negroes” moving to
Goshen—and called for open and fair housing;
WHEREAS healthy individuals and healthy communities are able to recognize past
mistakes (“sundown town” activities in Goshen were and remain unacceptable and
contrary to our U.S. Constitution), admit when they have been wrong, and
resolve to make improvements in the future;
WHEREAS Goshen already has made significant progress in promoting racial
equality—as symbolized by establishing in 1996 an annual Diversity Day and the
Human Relations Commission (which had been part of the GMA), approving in 2000
the placement at Goshen’s City limits of welcoming signage that said “We
Promote Tolerance” and “Embracing Diversity,” and instituting in 2004 the
Community Relations Commission as part of City government;
WHEREAS the City of Goshen, Goshen Chamber of Commerce, Goshen Community
Schools, Goshen College and others are working together to tell the compelling
stories (past and present) of our increasingly diverse community—all for the
good of Goshen;
AND WHEREAS Goshen residents are justifiably proud of how we seek to work
toward the common good of everyone in the community—and in pursuing that goal
the City of Goshen would be uncommonly great in acknowledging our community’s
“sundown town” past.
[http://sundown.afro.illinois.edu/GoshenRes.doc](http://sundown.afro.illinois.edu/GoshenRes.doc)
~~~
marcusgarvey
The widespread existence of such policies -- long after slavery ended,
sanctioned by the federal government and generations-long, is why folks like
Ta-Nehisi Coates can make a persuasive case for reparations.
[http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-
case...](http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-
reparations/361631/)
------
tuxidomasx
Another positive benefit of the Green Book was that it was essentially an
early niche business directory. Ironically, some of the greatest economic
progress for Black Americans occurred during the oppressive Jim Crow era
because Black consumers had to buy goods and services from Black-friendly and
Black-owned & operated businesses.
Probably the best example of this was the Black Wall Street in Tulsa, Oklahoma
(
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwood,_Tulsa#The_Black_Wal...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwood,_Tulsa#The_Black_Wall_Street)
), which was the wealthiest Black community in America at the time (and
subsequently the site of the worst race riot of the 20th century).
Resources like the Green Book benefited Black businesses as well as Black
travelers and consumers.
~~~
marcusgarvey
>Ironically, some of the greatest economic progress for Black Americans
occurred during the oppressive Jim Crow era because Black consumers had to buy
goods and services from Black-friendly and Black-owned & operated businesses.
On a very individualized basis, there were some inspiring gains for sure. But
policies like those mentioned in my other comments were so widespread that, on
a collective basis, the progress was and is quite abysmal.
------
evanjacobs
This post reminded me of the upcoming book by Matt Ruff ("Sewer, Gas &
Electric", "Set This House in Order", "Fool on the Hill") titled "Lovecraft
Country".
From the description on the author's website:
_" Chicago, 1954. When his father goes missing, twenty-two-year-old Army
veteran Atticus Turner embarks on a road trip to New England to find him,
accompanied by his uncle George—publisher of The Safe Negro Travel Guide—and
his childhood friend Letitia. On their journey to the manor of Samuel
Braithwhite—heir to the estate that owned one of Atticus’s ancestors—they
encounter both the mundane terrors of white America and malevolent spirits
that seem straight out of the weird tales George devours."_
[http://www.bymattruff.com/my-novels/lovecraft-
country/](http://www.bymattruff.com/my-novels/lovecraft-country/)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Doxxing defense: Remove your personal info from data brokers - ilamont
http://www.computerworld.com/article/2849263/doxxing-defense-remove-your-personal-info-from-data-brokers.html#tk.cwfb
======
blauwbilgorgel
Just because a data aggregation site does not show your data on the front-end,
does not mean they deleted it from the back-end. So now you can charge 50$ for
people to search in the "special" data pile, where people took the effort to
remove it from the front-end.
These data brokers crawl publicly available information. Telling them to
remove your data, only slows down the doxxer, it does not stop them at all,
since the data was already shared. It is not plugging the leak, it is mopping
up some of the water. A false sense of security and a clear sign to the doxxer
that you care about your anonymity (so more "lulz" to be had).
A proper doxxing is also much more than entering a name in some search
engines. Especially hackers do not like to be doxxed. For internet civilians
who already put this data out there (on social media) a simple data broker
doxxing is a mere reminder that such data is public to everyone, not just
friends.
Doxxing defense is guarding your anonymity online. Everywhere. Doxxing defense
is knowing when to change persona's, and when to log off. That is: If you care
about it at all. If you care about keeping your identity a secret online, see:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XaYdCdwiWU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XaYdCdwiWU)
(The Grugq - OPSEC: Because Jail is for wuftpd).
~~~
hackuser
> Just because a data aggregation site does not show your data on the front-
> end, does not mean they deleted it from the back-end. So now you can charge
> 50$ for people to search in the "special" data pile
Do you have evidence of aggregators doing this? It's plausible, but I haven't
heard about it happening.
> Telling them to remove your data, only slows down the doxxer, it does not
> stop them at all
I think you have a good point overall but let's not dismiss the solution in
the ComputerWorld article, which is valuable. All security solutions do the
same thing: They increase the attacker's costs, which stops attackers
unwilling to pay the price. There is no perfect security.
For example, we tell users to use strong passwords on their Windows logons,
but that only raises the cost of an attack and does not completely secure the
machine.
------
Someone1234
The US really needs something akin to the EU's Data Protection Directive[0].
I've seen tons of businesses hide some tiny clause in their T&Cs (page 30,
subsection 15, paragraph 11, etc) which allows them to resell your data to
whoever will pay. For example the National Geographic Store sold my personal
data when I purchased something from them (even with no check-box opt out, etc
during checkout), and I've been receiving girly catalogues and credit card
applicaton snail mail ever since (with a glaring typo which points right to
National Geo's store).
I don't really see that happening (the US getting better data protections) as
the US constitution is being largely used to protect business's "freedom [to
do whatever the hell they want]" rather than individuals/people as was
intended.
I was really hopeful that when the blackmail criminal-record racket started
that that might finally result in substantial changes within the US, but nope.
Nothing has changed and the blackmailers still operate.
[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Protection_Directive](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Protection_Directive)
~~~
giarc
I know you can enter email addresses as x+y@example.com where x=your regular
email and y=some word/phrase to indicate who might have sold your email.
For example, if you register bill+NG@example.com with national geographic, and
you find yourself getting to: bill+NG@example.com from spam, you know who sold
your info. My question is, do you think companies know this trick and just
remove the portion following the "+"?
~~~
subsection1h
> _if you register bill+NG@email.com_
Please use the second level domain label _example_ [1] when writing examples
of email addresses. For all you know, you just posted someone's email address.
[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Example.com](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Example.com)
~~~
giarc
Changed it even though someone else pointed out it bounces. Thanks for the
tip.
------
ryan-c
Abine's DeleteMe[1] service will take care of removing you from these sites,
though it's not cheap. They will keep re-checking and re-removing. I've been
using it for a few years, and it seems to work pretty well. IIRC there was
still one site that I had to call and deal with myself.
1\. [https://www.abine.com/deleteme/](https://www.abine.com/deleteme/)
~~~
ghayes
I would also add Safe Shepherd [0]. We remove your information from the
standard data brokers, and also give you guides on how to remove yourself from
a large universe of sites yourself. Message me if you have any questions.
Edit: The service costs $13.95/mo, but you can get started with a 10-day free
trial where we'll kick off all of the removals. You can (fully) delete your
account at any time if you'd like.
[0] [https://www.safeshepherd.com/](https://www.safeshepherd.com/)
~~~
blacksmith_tb
Question - I can see the value of a service that automates all these removal
requests. That said, the monthly subscription model seems a bit excessive, as
I assume data would creep back in gradually. I would think quarterly, or even
annually resubmitting them all would be adequate. No?
~~~
ghayes
Many of our customers choose to turn the service on once every several months
(upgrade and then downgrade at the end of the month). We totally support
whatever works for you.
That said, our service is based around continually scanning the web for
exposures of your personal information. There's plenty of new information that
crops up all the time, and we're here to help you when it does.
------
gear54rus
The Internet never forgets. No app is going to change that because Internet is
de-centralized and de-centralization makes it impossible to know if the data
was really completely removed or not.
Let's face it: the only way to not expose your personal info is to not share
it in the first place (forget silly Facebook, G+, Instagrams and all that
stuff). If you've already done that, make sure that whatever you are doing
that might lead to doxxing is done with your other identity (although this is
hardly fool proof since linking identities can happen in many unexpected
places). Worst of all is that that kind of infomation, once it slips, is
impossible to contain and you have to cut ties and start over.
Relevant:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect)
~~~
hyperbovine
Not relevant. I've never used social media a day in my life. Nevertheless,
clicking a few links in this article turned up my full name, age, birthday,
every address I've had since I was 14, email address, and convenient links to
pages containing that same information for every member of my family. This is
all obtained from public records over which you have literally no control if
you lead any semblance of a normal life. There should be more legal
protections in place to prevent using public data in this way.
------
cowsandmilk
There are plenty of sources of information where you cannot opt out.
If you own property in Massachusetts, I can find it using
[http://www.masslandrecords.com](http://www.masslandrecords.com) , you can't
opt out of that.
~~~
hackuser
The electricity provider here requires the use of 'smart meters' (that is, if
you want to use their electricity). Via smart meters, they can identify what
electrical appliances are used in your house and when (and possibly even how
you are using them, such as what TV show you are watching), giving them a good
picture of everything that goes on in the privacy of your home.[1]
There is no opt-out. They have this information on everyone in the state.
[1] This is not at all a fringe theory. It's been discussed on HN at least a
few times.
~~~
jn1234
Except is that information public? That information actually has an extremely
legitimate use, which is to better manage peak grid usage and how to optimize
that.
~~~
hackuser
> Except is that information public?
I don't think it needs to be easily accessible to the public to be
problematic. Many people, including businesses and government, can have
access. The electricity vendor has little incentive to protect it, to
scrutinize government requests, etc. Recent NY Times articles describe the US
Postal Service accepting almost all law enforcement requests for information
on their customers.
Also, data has a way of leaking ...
> That information actually has an extremely legitimate use, which is to
> better manage peak grid usage and how to optimize that.
I do see a benefit to it, but 1) It should be anonymized and minimized. For
example, how about aggregating data about usage on my block and storing that?
Cleaning it of anything that violates privacy, such as high-resolution
individual signals? 2) My privacy is a higher priority than their technical
benefits; there's an assumption (maybe not by you) that whenever there's a
tradeoff, privacy doesn't amount to much -- this is money we're talking about,
after all.
------
grecy
Rather than trying to make it harder for people to stalk/harass/intimidate
others by hiding data, why don't we get tough with laws and sentencing?
A 5 year jail stint for the next 10 idiots to pull this stunt will reduce the
incident rate of this happening a lot faster.
~~~
frtab
There's no significant link between prison sentences and crime rates.
If there was, Norway would have a high crime rate and the US would have a low
crime rate.
~~~
jonahx
Your first point _may_ be true, but the US/Norway example is not good evidence
for it. There are significant other confounding factors -- relative
homogeneity of the population, economic differences, population size, cultural
history are just a handful that spring to mind.
~~~
innguest
Those oft-repeated "factors" can only be factors if you show that they are.
Simply mentioning that there are differences between those two countries does
not make any difference you care to list a "factor".
------
devindotcom
There are a LOT more data brokers than listed here, though it's a decent list
to start with. These are small fry in the scheme of things though. You can
start working your way through this one if you're really concerned:
[http://www.worldprivacyforum.org/2013/12/data-brokers-opt-
ou...](http://www.worldprivacyforum.org/2013/12/data-brokers-opt-out/)
------
spindritf
The threats of violence are usually empty posturing but there are other
serious risks associated with speaking out online under your real name. In the
US you can get "swatted"[1], which is an evil twist on usual pizza pranks.
It's not far from that to getting shot (or having your dog shot).
Then there are basic SEO threats to your good name. And the old "taking
information out of the Internet is like taking piss out of a pool." Whether
the information is true or not.
I don't think this is an appropriate defence though. Sticking to usual good
practices of not conflating anonymous personas with your real identity, using
a PO box and proxy services (whether for domain registrations or actual
network proxies) will be more productive. Not good enough when evading FBI but
probably more than fine otherwise.
[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatting)
------
peterwwillis
I don't think this is an effective defense.
First of all, doxing works the same way private investigators do, so they do
not require one-stop-shopping data banks. Social engineering and public
records searches usually give you everything you need and are free. Second, if
you're coming from the standpoint of a feminist decrying the ails of an
oppressive society, you are pissing people off that will be motivated in
attacking you; they aren't going to back off just because your information
didn't show up on PeopleFinder.
IMO, the only defense against doxing is to dox yourself. Doxing is just a form
of intimidation, after all, usually done by people who think publicizing some
"secret information" will be taken as a vague threat. Make the information
public and you remove their ammunition.
To me, the best defense against a troll is being completely nonchalant and not
giving a shit what they do. Hacked my accounts? Oh well, it's just an account,
i'll make another. Sent me death threats? Hey, life is short and we all die
some time. The more you show your attackers that you will not be bothered, the
more they realize they are powerless to harass you. That combined with
reducing one's online footprint in general will break down their motivation
and move them to other avenues for venting hate and frustration.
~~~
shadowfox
> IMO, the only defense against doxing is to dox yourself. Doxing is just a
> form of intimidation, after all, usually done by people who think
> publicizing some "secret information" will be taken as a vague threat. Make
> the information public and you remove their ammunition.
> To me, the best defense against a troll is being completely nonchalant and
> not giving a shit what they do. Hacked my accounts? Oh well, it's just an
> account, i'll make another. Sent me death threats? Hey, life is short and we
> all die some time.
I am clearly a little less nonchalant than you. But I don't feel all that
inclined to publicly post my home address or my kid's school address or scout
camp location.
------
r00fus
This is useless. The only way to defeat mass collection is to poison the well.
I always put some fake data wherever it's not legally required. The only issue
is where it is _required_ and that is the root of the problem - why is it
required in so many places?
------
rl3
The fact most of these sites even have opt-out mechanisms, and that they're
apparently effective, is surprising and quite nice.
Though, I suspect this became the case out of necessity as a result of horror
stories and litigation.
~~~
300bps
_The fact most of these sites even have opt-out mechanisms, and that they 're
apparently effective,_
My last name is one that fewer than 20 people in the world have. So doxxing
protection and name management in general is very important to me. A few years
ago I took about a day and had myself removed from everywhere I could find.
Far more comprehensive than this article.
In the three years since, I've slowly been added back to all of them. I
haven't moved, I haven't added or subtracted phone numbers, I've made no life
changes. It just seems like these data brokers remove your information when
you ask and then for whatever reason just add it back again. One example:
whitepages.com. I was removed from there about two years and then suddenly my
name and address are back again. That's just one example that leads me to
believe the opt-out at these data brokers is "temporarily effective" at best.
~~~
rl3
Seems like doing it on a persistent basis is required then, regardless.
Admittedly it's a sad state of affairs, but it beats nothing.
------
legohead
If any of your personal info is on the internet, it has already been saved
where you cannot remove it. This is a personal conundrum I have been trying to
wrap my head around, especially as it relates to pictures of my kids I'd like
to keep offline (but other people take pictures of them and upload them, and
it's too late at that point...)
A company I'm familiar with was attacked by a blackhat. He sent the company
owner all his personal information including SSN, address, etc. It scared the
owner enough to pay off the blackhat, but he also asked the blackhat how he
got his information. The blackhat sent the owner a website that you can go to,
pay around $4 in bitcoin, and search for anyone's information.
------
pasbesoin
People who can afford to are going to begin hiding behind shell corporations.
Houses, other assets, etc. will be corporate-owned, with suitable non-
descriptive names and corporate addresses.
In fact, this is already occurring, although a prime driver has been a form of
trust that reduces taxes particularly inheritance taxes.
I'm not familiar with what e.g. Hollywood celebrities do, but at a guess many
of them are likely also doing something similar.
Need to restrict access? Introduce a layer of indirection.
~~~
gcb0
agreed. most of the data those companies had on my name were from utilities,
insurance, etc.
and most of them aggregated people with my common name in several states.
they had a lot of info, but also a lot of wrong info. all mixed together. i
send removals for all entries, mine and otherwise :)
------
Joona
I think just using a nickname (instead of your own name) and not sharing
addresses etc is the best way to go.
Lirik (a big Twitch streamer) chooses to only use his online alias, and
although it's a common question what his real name (or other details) are, no
one really has an answer. You just have to put some effort to not leaking
information from registrations to sites (and such).
------
wpietri
Wow. This is an app just waiting to be built. I would definitely subscribe to
a service like this. And I would happily give money to a nonprofit who
provides this as a free service for women in tech. Developers, start your
IDEs!
~~~
muyuu
Why not men too?
~~~
wpietri
This response grates a little. It's so common that it's widely discussed and
parodied. E.g.:
[http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/phmt-
argu...](http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/phmt-argument/)
[http://www.robot-hugs.com/but-men/](http://www.robot-hugs.com/but-men/)
And it's closely related to the "not all men" line, equally mocked:
[http://www.listen-tome.com/save-me/](http://www.listen-tome.com/save-me/)
[http://imgur.com/gallery/z5AYz66](http://imgur.com/gallery/z5AYz66)
But assuming that you are sincere and just unaware of the context: The reason
that I personally would offer to fund this service for women in tech is that
diversity in tech is an issue I have been working on for a while. Even though
women are a relatively small proportion of the field, those women are a
disproportionately large share of those getting abused with things like
doxxing. I don't like that and want it to stop.
It would be my hope that by offering it widely, it would enable more women to
speak up both about tech and about their experience in tech. Which I in turn
hope will promote a more diverse and inclusive field. Which I think is a good
end in itself, but I also think that means better empathy for all sorts of
users of tech, and therefore better products and less systemic waste.
Is that helpful?
~~~
TeMPOraL
This is sexist and ostracizing :P.
Such service doesn't have a natural gender discrimination so it's actually
additional work to create one. Sure, it might be worth to focus on marketing
it to women, if indeed they get "disproportionately large share" of abuse (it
sounds plausible to me, but I don't have data) - but there's no need for
artificially limiting the service itself. Male privacy nerds would happily use
it too.
~~~
skybrian
Nobody asked that the service to be limited to women. That's something you're
adding to the conversation. So it seems to me that you're politicizing it even
more.
~~~
TeMPOraL
From the top comment of this thread:
> _And I would happily give money to a nonprofit who provides this as a free
> service for women in tech_
That's how I understood it, and I think it's supported by the poster's other
comments.
~~~
wpietri
Skybrian is right; you're wrong.
I am speaking of two separate things: a commercial product and a nonprofit
that gives away free subscriptions to the commercial product. Although now
that you mention it, if some sort of existing nonprofit focusing on diversity
in tech built a service, that would also be something I'm glad to support.
One easy way to tell that I didn't want guys excluded from the service: I said
I wanted to subscribe, and I am a guy.
------
michaelochurch
What creeps me out is that there are now salary databases that people can use
to see someone's prior salary history, job titles, and (in some cases) details
of separation. It shouldn't be legal for those to exist, nor for companies to
use them.
I actually checked myself in one ("The Work Number") in 2012 and it had an
accurate title and salary history, which I hadn't made public. Scary, creepy
stuff going on. How the fuck are they able to know that?
~~~
ci5er
> How the fuck are they able to know that?
This is a good question, that I'd like to see answered too -- if anyone here
knows.
On a related (only to me) note: Is there any way that I can set a watcher on
your comment to notify me if there is a response to it?
~~~
ben010783
I'm just guessing, but they could be using info that was obtained when a user
was trying to get a loan. Typically, your info is sent to multiple lenders so
you can get the best rate. Somebody could be collecting the info somewhere
along the line.
------
doctorfoo
"Many women gamers and developers, as well as those who support them, have
lately come under attack from online trolls"
Please don't whitewash the GamerGaters who have also experienced such attacks.
(For example, one was "doxed" and mailed a knife with a suggestion to kill
himself - which I'd argue a far worse "attack" than any online threats. The
anti-GamerGate media of course doesn't report on this.)
~~~
lentil_soup
What about a source for that?
~~~
doctorfoo
[https://twitter.com/kingofpol/status/525755692318457856](https://twitter.com/kingofpol/status/525755692318457856)
Keywords "gamergate knife".
~~~
ceejayoz
I'm sure all the folks claiming @femfreq made up her death threats will be
equally skeptical about this one.
~~~
rudolf0
"KingOfPol" is known for lying and generally being not too mentally stable, so
it's certainly not a stretch. Sarkeesian on the other hand is unlikely to lie
about such things, but there was clearly some exaggeration involved.
~~~
mafribe
Why is Sarkeesian "unlikely to lie about such things"?
~~~
rudolf0
Because she's (sort of) a public figure and if it was revealed she was lying,
it would look very bad for her? She also hasn't had a history of lying about
such things in the past, so there's no reason to suspect she is now. She is
known to have lied about certain other issues, but not in a way that's
relevant to threats or harassment. She also doesn't come across as mentally
unhinged or malicious. I dislike her, but I don't think she lied about any of
the threats.
The other person being discussed, KingOfPol, is known for his narcissism and
fabrication of stories, so it's a bit different.
~~~
mafribe
That's not an exhaustive analysis. I recommend to look at risk vs reward.
The risk of getting caught is essentially zero: just use Tor and VPN via an
'unfriendly' third country to send fake threats to yourself, or get a friend
to do that for you. Clearly the police is not going to investigate, because
all these cyberthreats are obviously not serious. The upside on the other hand
... Sarkeesian made how much last time by playing the damsel-in-distress?
Wasn't it over $100k? That's quite an incentive. And then there is the
political effect: the mainstream media, for various reasons, will
automatically sides with the damsels.
I spent quite a lot of time in activists' milieu and I smell attack techniques
in a Leninian mould, see e.g. Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals".
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Low demanding job to support you - telemator
I've been working on a software project for a while that I'm hoping will bring me income when done. Until then, I'm digging into my savings but it's running out faster than I'd planned. So I need to get a job, but it shouldn't be mentally and/or physically demanding, otherwise my rate of progress will plummet. It doesn't have to be in my field and I'm OK with minimum pay as long as it covers my rent and food.<p>Any advice on what kind of job qualifies?
======
eastbayjake
Freelance writing is a quick and highly liquid way to earn marginal income.
During college and summer vacations I wrote for TextBroker[1], which pays per-
word for SEO keyword articles in pretty niche topics. If you score well on
their grammar and writing tests, you can make 1.5 cents per word or $7.50 per
500 word essay. The upside is that it's really easy to convert spare time into
extra income -- you can claim one article at a time and write as many as you
want. The downside is you'll be writing for some pretty scuzzy SEO folks, and
if they ask for revisions it'll tank your cents-per-word estimate. It was a
great way to round up some extra grocery money when expenses got tight, but it
would have been difficult to sustain for many hours per day. On a good run I
could make $40-50 over five hours before burning out.
I've recently come across Scripted, a more writer-friendly service that
focuses on content quality instead of brute-forcing SEO keywords.
TextBroker: [https://www.textbroker.com/](https://www.textbroker.com/)
Scripted: [http://scripted.com/](http://scripted.com/)
------
1123581321
Hotel night clerk, security, housesitting, or just about anything in banking
back office. The idea is you get paid a low hourly while spending a lot of the
time working on your software. My friend finished version 1 of his application
using RDC through his tellers' station, and the bank purported to be strict
about personal computer use.
I agree consulting is best but it needs to be easily available and wrap up
neatly, or else it'll eat into your creative time.
------
paulhauggis
Instead, get a part-time contracting position doing software development. I
did this while I was building my startup. I worked around 20 hours per week
and had the rest of the week to do what I wanted. I quit contracting about 9
months ago.
It worked pretty well.
The problem is that the only jobs that aren't mentally or physically demanding
will be low-paid and most likely boring to you.
~~~
telemator
This is a good idea and I've thought about it, but it's not easy getting a
part time job around here (Sydney). But I'll look into it.
~~~
eswat
It’s good timing to take a look at the Seeking Freelancer thread on HN. You
may not find a client close to you but as long as you can deliver a project in
exchange for what you’re looking for, then it’s a good deal.
~~~
brandonlipman
I would definitely be curious where that thread is. Do you have a URL?
~~~
telemator
This seems recent:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9127243](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9127243)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
LungoJS - Create Powerful Mobile Apps With Just HTML5, CSS3, And JavaScript - noob007
http://functionn.blogspot.com/2012/03/lungojs-create-powerful-mobile-apps.html#.T2oJlo6890Y.hackernews
======
noob007
Direct Link For Those Who Prefer It: <http://www.lungojs.com/>
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Gitea – A painless self-hosted Git service - brettlangdon
https://gitea.io
======
detaro
discussion 20 days ago:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13296717](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13296717)
------
nfriedly
What's different between Gitea and Gogs?
I just setup the Gogs docker image the other day to play with, and it seemed
pretty painless to me.
Edit: I just found [https://blog.gitea.io/2016/12/welcome-to-
gitea/](https://blog.gitea.io/2016/12/welcome-to-gitea/) which somewhat
answers this - essentially a different governance model and more development,
but not any major functional differences.
~~~
muricula
Gittea is a community fork of gogs motivated by dissatisfaction with the
current maintainer.
~~~
sangnoir
Is that the plural for contributor nowadays? Goose::Geese :::
Contributor::Community
Why are people eager yo forget that users are also members of the 'community'?
------
techsupporter
If you're like me and were staring at Gitea's web site thinking, "dang, how do
I run this as a daemon," Gogs (from which Gitea forked) has a nice page on
doing this:
[https://gogs.io/docs/intro/faqs.html](https://gogs.io/docs/intro/faqs.html)
~~~
plaes
Um.. On the front page - "Simply run the binary [1] for your platform"
[1] [https://docs.gitea.io/en-us/install-from-
binary/](https://docs.gitea.io/en-us/install-from-binary/)
~~~
allannienhuis
"as a daemon".
The link shows how to run the app, not how to run it as a daemon. That said,
the answer is platform specific, although it would be useful to have some
common examples.
~~~
ZenoArrow
>"it would be useful to have some common examples."
I found this page useful when setting up Gogs as a Windows service:
[https://gogs.io/docs/installation/run_as_windows_service](https://gogs.io/docs/installation/run_as_windows_service)
------
ahacker15
For those who want to try the project online, just go to
[https://try.gitea.io](https://try.gitea.io)
For fast questions and talking there's a Gitter chat room:
[https://gitter.im/go-gitea/gitea](https://gitter.im/go-gitea/gitea)
For feature requests and bugs go to [https://github.com/go-
gitea/gitea/issues](https://github.com/go-gitea/gitea/issues)
------
krautsourced
Another great thing is, they offer a lot of binary releases, especially for
ARM platforms, so it works out of the box on e.g. Synology NAS (the Marvell
based ones).
~~~
IshKebab
Most apps written in Go do, example:
[https://github.com/zyedidia/micro/releases](https://github.com/zyedidia/micro/releases)
It's because Go doesn't use gcc or LLVM for linking - it has its own built in
linker that doesn't depend on the host system, so cross-compiling is totally
trivial. I have no idea why gcc wasn't written like that.
------
reacharavindh
I like it. At my work(big corp that built a wall for for all engineering work
and prevents engineers from using SAAS), this will be very helpful as it is a
single binary built from open source Go. I'll try hosting our team's internal
scripts and tools through this.
------
cobbzilla
I'm eagerly looking for a solution good enough to let me ditch our current
paid/hosted service. Gitea seems like it's getting _really_ close, but a
couple concerns linger:
* how does the pull-request/code review UI look? didn't see any examples on [https://try.gitea.io/](https://try.gitea.io/) or main website
* mobile/responsive UI would be really nice for small screens
~~~
dijit
RE: how does pull request/code review look?
[https://try.gitea.io/gitea/gitea/pulls/2](https://try.gitea.io/gitea/gitea/pulls/2)
Looks pretty much like github to me.
~~~
cobbzilla
thanks for the link; that looks nice & clean.
------
bisby
This time looking at this, I notice they have Dockerfile.rpi.
the kicker for moving to gogs from gitlab was that gogs had a prebuilt
official rpi image... but it was several version behind the x86 one. I have no
issues building images myself, but usually it feels like a lot of hoops to
jump through to make things work on rpi. Having an rpi dockerfile really just
makes me feel extra comfortable about things - not having to worry about weird
x86 only dependencies and having to resolve them myself.
------
hawski
That's great! Zero-dependencies services are much appreciated.
In line with recent discussion how Maintainers Don't Scale [0] I think that
software like this is a bit of an answer for dev-tools.
I think that kernel developers prefer tools that they can reasonably
understand. Eventually tools that are easy to host (while having certain
mindset). That's why most kernel related web services are probably written in
Perl, in C (cgit) or in Python to some extent. I think Ruby on Rails or Java
is not compatible with this mindset. Maybe Go is?
When I am thinking of self-hosted web facing services myself I have similar
mindset. Every time I see that it's written in Java, Ruby or Node.js I pass.
For certain it's many times counter productive, but I can't (or don't want to)
help myself.
I tried to find the source behind LKML, but it's hard because most searches
containing LKML will be just kernel related. It probably is written in Python
as the developer behind LKML is a Python developer.
[0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13444560](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13444560)
------
sureshn
I have been using takezoe/gitbucket for a while now and have been happy with
it , gitea seems to be the new kid on the block :), its also impressive to
note that DigitalOcean has sponsored their hosting. One advantage I see with
Gitea is that it uses Go and this will give it the power of scaling.
Congratulations to the team and I look forward to the evolution of gitea
------
throw2016
I read through the Gogs repo and there didn't seem to be any organized
'community' of users or talk of a fork. The author was away for a couple of
weeks to come back to this news.
Is open source about contribution or just forking? At the moment it seems the
the best way to open source is to be a well funded project with tons of
resources and people specifically to manage the community because of intense
expectations with projects declared dead even for one week of inactivity by
some users.
What I am increasingly noticing with small teams or one man projects is if the
project gains some popularity some 'community' folks pop up who first place an
oppressive burden of expectations on the author and then try to fork the
project. There is some element of misuse of the word 'community' by a small
clique of people.
Why are community expectations so high, is continuous development and an ever
expanding feature set the only way to develop? I think a culture of undue
pressure is being created on open source authors and projects.
~~~
shakna
gitea was initially just a fork so development could continue - with every
intention of merging it back into gogs.
However, Unknwon, responded here [0], let me point out his main reason for not
merging back:
> Gitea won't be merged back to Gogs, it's not about merging work is huge and
> hard, it's the differences of fundamental philosophy. I personally do not
> like to push hard to release new features, but make code neat and clean,
> it's not good for business, but Gogs isn't a business, making it is what I
> love to do.
[0]
[https://github.com/gogits/gogs/issues/1304#issuecomment-1246...](https://github.com/gogits/gogs/issues/1304#issuecomment-124664775)
------
echelon
This space is becoming so full of open source offerings, I wonder if or how
long the enterprise solutions can stay afloat.
Is Github making the kind of money they aimed to when they raised all of that
VC money? What about Gitlab and Atlassian?
I realize that Github and the like have distinguishing features, such as issue
trackers, but I can't imagine open source will lag far behind forever.
~~~
kondro
You're forgetting one of the two major features of SaaS repos (and software in
general):
1\. Someone else hosting, securing & backing up all your repos.
2\. Someone you pay to blame when there are issues and hopefully with the
incentive to fix quickly.
~~~
syshum
You're forgetting one of the two major disadvantages of SaaS repos (and
software in general):
1\. Someone else is hosting, securing & backing up all your repos.
2\. You are at the mercy of someone else when there are issues to fix quickly.
~~~
TeMPOraL
Right. And a lot of people, taking a look at those advantages and
disadvantages, determine that SaaS repos make sesnse for them.
------
jarnix
I fail to understand the difference between Gogs and Gitea?
Did anyone try it and how does it compare to Github, to Gitlab (hosted/free
and entreprise) ?
~~~
secure
Gitea is a fork of Gogs, the reasons for the fork are explained at
[https://blog.gitea.io/2016/12/welcome-to-
gitea/](https://blog.gitea.io/2016/12/welcome-to-gitea/)
~~~
esamy
Wow, that must really sting. They literally stole his creation. He shouldn't
have released it under a permissive license if he's not willing to
collaborate.
~~~
daenney
So first of all, no one stole anything. Wether the author should have released
this under a permissive license or not is a different debate. However, he did,
so no stealing, literally.
The author is also not unwilling to collaborate. Just look at the history of
accepted PRs for example. However, he is unwilling to give others wider access
and control over the direction of Gogs (which is totally his right):
> This happened not before trying to convince @Unknwon about giving write
> permissions to more people, among the community. He rightly considered Gogs
> his own creature and didn’t want to let it grow outside of him, thus a fork
> was necessary in order to set that code effectively free.
As to whether it stings I'm not sure. They had conversations around this topic
and the conclusion was that a fork was what's needed for what (part of) the
community wanted. Though it's possible for the original author to see this as
a slap in the face I hope he sees it more as a huge testament to what he's
achieved with Gogs so far.
------
imron
...hosted on Github ;-)
~~~
IshKebab
To be fair, that is likely more due to Github's network effects than
deficiencies in Gogs/Gitea.
~~~
imron
I agree and I was being partly tongue in cheek, but with an element of
seriousness also.
It's a far more compelling story if a project like this is self hosting
compared to hosting on what is essentially a competitor in the same space.
------
ne01
love the name -- Gitea! :) So clever!!
------
chx
If you think hosting anything is painless then you never hosted anything
important.
~~~
AsyncAwait
It's a single binary, that's a lot less pain than having to set up tons of
dependencies, no need to patronise.
~~~
zyxzkz
This is the real beauty of Go, IMHO.
~~~
eptcyka
There is nothing beautiful about how go itself handles dependencies.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The hottest new thing in sustainable building is, uh, wood - throw0101a
https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2020/1/15/21058051/climate-change-building-materials-mass-timber-cross-laminated-clt
======
throw0101a
For those not familiar with these techniques, an American builder visiting DE
and CH and learning about them:
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j_UjIshzMc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j_UjIshzMc)
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlplalGNfFM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlplalGNfFM)
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC1axnHV9aA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC1axnHV9aA)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Gmail extractor - Extract all email addresses from your inbox - BigBalli
http://giacomoballi.com/gmail-extract-email-addresses-from-inbox/#.UUsnf6XIik_
======
BigBalli
60sec for 12k emails. Does anyone have a benchmark reference? fast? slow?
------
qompiler
Uhm, I'm not going to enter my password.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Facebook deliberately bans Grooveshark from its services - Natsu
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/05/facebook-deliberately-bans-grooveshark-from-its-services/
======
Rudism
I'd always avoided using Facebook to sign into any third party service due to
privacy concerns (and eventually deleted my Facebook account altogether). But
this is another good reason not to that I had never even really considered
before. I wonder what will happen to user data for Facebook users... Will
Grooveshark be able to let those users create a new local account and somehow
tie their old data to it? Seems unlikely to me.
I never understood the one account to rule them all mindset. It drives me nuts
when my wife uses the same password for every service she ever signs up for,
and it seems that using the same account for everything is only mildly better
(reduces the recovery time if your password is compromised to updating a
single account instead of dozens).
Thank goodness for KeePass and random password generators!
------
ryandvm
What Facebook giveth, Facebook can taketh away.
~~~
joe_the_user
Yeah,
Adding Facebook as your sign-on adds another significant point of failure.
~~~
patrickaljord
Not if you also ask for the user email though the Facebook API. In this case
people can get access by getting a password reset sent to their email. This is
what Grooveshark is doing right now and what most people using Facebook for
signing in do too.
------
ricardobeat
GrooveShark must be the most legally attacked business ever. I'm surprised
they haven't gone down. I still pay the monthly $3 plan, just to do my part
keeping them afloat, even though I rarely use it these days.
~~~
wanderr
Hey ricardobeat, Grooveshark developer here. Thanks for the support! It just
so happens that we're currently making an effort to reach out to users who
haven't been back in a while to find out why and see if there is anything we
could do to improve the service. If you'd like to contribute your thoughts,
just shoot an email over to support@grooveshark.com
Thanks!
~~~
ryandvm
I spend about half my time in other music services (Turntable.fm, Last.fm,
Spotify, etc.). What I would really like to see is better playlist
import/export capability. For instance, I would love to have the same songs
available whether I'm spinning in Turntable or just playing music for myself.
I realize that by the nature of the problem, you can only fulfill half of it.
I also know that it's probably a pipe dream since lock-in is so valuable, but
that is what I would really like to see from my music services.
~~~
wanderr
Thanks for the feedback. One of our other developers created
<http://groovebackup.com/> to make exporting playlists easier. It's not
officially supported, but it should get the job done. :) Another dev was
working on playlist importing as a side project but I think it fell by the
wayside.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Autonomous Selfie Drone Is Here. Is Society Ready for It? - thomasjudge
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/02/13/technology/skydio-autonomous-drones.html
======
King-Aaron
Change the Skydio logo to a McDonnel Douglas / Lockheed Martin logo and the
product seems a lot more sinister.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Google Puts The Squeeze On Free Apps - peter123
http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/01/23/google-puts-the-squeeze-on-free-apps/
======
mikeyur
I don't know. I agree with Google on this one. There should be more people
paying for this awesome service.
And to be honest, 50 accounts is still a lot. Having 50 or so employees in a
company is a fairly large company, companies with that many people can fork up
$50/user/year
~~~
adamc
The question isn't really "can they" but "will they"? A lot of big companies
have very cheap office deals.
------
PoweredByWill
My advice to Google is to lower the user threshold, possibly as low as 12-25
and create a middle-tier pricing option.
1\. Bootstrapped 2\. SMB 3\. Enterprise
~~~
davidw
Yeah, the prices are currently:
0-50 users: $0
50+ users: 50 * 50 = $2500 - ouch!
~~~
jwesley
For a company with 50+ employees, $2500 per year is not a major expense,
relative to rent and payroll. Still vastly cheaper than MS Office.
~~~
davidw
Sure, but perhaps companies in the middle, with less than 50 employees, might
be willing to spend some money, but not $50 a year per employee. Say, a 10
employee company - that's 500$ a year, which isn't huge, but not peanuts
either. If Google could get 200$ out of them, and still make a profit, it
seems like a win for everyone. No idea what their actual costs are, but they
can't be that high if the advertising is anywhere close to covering them.
------
Devilboy
We use the paid gmail system in our office and it's the best thing that ever
happened to our email infrastructure! Pretty cheap and super easy.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
On rvm's *cd* script - benatkin
http://batkin.tumblr.com/post/8847990062/on-rvms-cd-script
======
pilif
> I knew about .rvmrc’s behavior, but I thought that the shell must have
> provided a hook for the directory changing!
And this, my friends, is another reason to use zsh which calls chpwd()
whenever the working directory has changed, which is in fact precisely what
the infamous rvm cd script does (I wasn't sure, but just checked).
So those people already running zsh with rvm, you are free of the cd
replacement.
Aside of that I still believe that rvm might be a tad bit intrusive and as a
Linux user of old, I learned to value the use of distribution packages. But
rvm is so darned convenient... :-)
~~~
IdeaHamster
Thank you for doing the digging for me! I've been hearing all this controversy
about overriding 'cd', but when I open a shell (with RVM installed), I still
see the following:
~/Desktop > which cd
cd: shell built-in command
------
spacemanaki
"Finally, one thing I’d like to know, is if rvm was loaded, would another
script be able to override cd in the same way that rvm does, and would both
script’s hooks be called?. I suspect that the answer is yes."
I'm not a shell expert but I played around with the code in this SO answer
from Wayne Sequin and I think the last script to be loaded would win, in other
words another script might break RVM. At least that's what appeared to be
happening in Bash 3.2 on OS X.
[http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5605277/how-does-rvm-
dete...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5605277/how-does-rvm-detect-when-
youve-changed-directories)
btw I use RVM and find it pretty useful.
~~~
sstephenson
Which is exactly why it's a terrible idea. There is no "super" mechanism in
Bash. Imagine if the Perl, Python and Node equivalents of rvm overrode cd --
they'd all have to be aware of each other's existence in order to play
together nicely.
Overriding cd for dependency injection purposes is like killing a fly with a
machine gun. It's completely inappropriate for the task at hand, and it's
precisely the kind of problem that $PATH is designed to solve.
Furthermore, rvm breaks the expected behavior of the cd command by prompting
you with security theatrics the first time you enter a project with an .rvmrc
file: <https://gist.github.com/34c251a56e83c61c667e> This kind of thing wreaks
havoc with third-party programs that attempt to interface with rvm. I've had
to deal with far too many bug reports in Pow as a result of this messy
behavior.
This is not some theoretical concern. It's just bad design.
~~~
zmanji
How would you get the same behavior of project base .rvmrc files without
hijacking cd?
~~~
sstephenson
By using a shim approach, like rbenv.
1\. Maintain a directory of shim binaries with the same name as every Ruby
binary (ruby, irb, rake, gem, etc).
2\. Put the shim directory at the front of your $PATH.
3\. When a shim is run (as in typing `rake` from the command line or running a
script with a `#!/usr/bin/env ruby` shebang), check for a version file in the
current directory or any parent directory, map that to the right path, and re-
exec the corresponding binary.
~~~
zmanji
Doesn't this solution not scale? Doesn't this mean a shim must be created for
every gem that I install that has a binary? Or is this only required for
"core" binaries?
~~~
sstephenson
`ls -l /usr/bin | wc -l` reports 1085 entries on my machine. Meanwhile, I have
40 entries in my ~/.rbenv/shims directory. I think the shell can handle it.
~~~
zmanji
I'm sorry, I was not aware of the 'rehash' function, I thought rbenv would
have to ship with all the required shims. The rehash functionality is quite
clever and cool. Is there an easy way to have that automatically execute after
I do any installation of a ruby or gem?
------
termie
What a shame. Overriding a shell built-in is a fucking horrible idea. While it
might be technically innocuous -- and I'm sure for most people it is --
philosophically and politically this is a design failure that will taint RVM
forever. It makes people wonder what other poor design choices lurk beneath.
People are mostly too lazy to look at this objectively and RVM will suffer for
it. What a shame.
------
telemachos
> Only one of a dozen or so posts I’ve read about raising concern with it
> cited a concrete problem with it. It was also for an earlier version of rvm,
> and it may already be fixed.
The exit status issue is definitely fixed[1]. I had the problem, traced it
back to rvm, popped into #rvm on irc, and it was fixed in two seconds. Wayne
is exceedingly active there (and mpapis also now). Things tend to get fixed
very fast.
(For the record, the other issue I had - TAB autocompletion with cd - is also
fixed, though that one was more complicated. As I recall, Wayne was getting
complaints from both directions. Some people reported that autocompletion for
_cd_ wasn't happening with rvm, and so Wayne added custom autocompletion for
_cd_ [2]. Then I and some others began to complain that our previously working
_cd_ autocompletion from _CDPATH_ and/or _bash-completion_ wasn't working. It
took a couple of weeks to sort out, but now rvm's autocompletion is opt-in[3].
If you don't ask for it, you don't get it.)
[1]
[https://github.com/wayneeseguin/rvm/commit/f9aa3adebcca54792...](https://github.com/wayneeseguin/rvm/commit/f9aa3adebcca547924c8095fa7696967bd2d8d15)
[2]
[https://github.com/wayneeseguin/rvm/commit/c683a7c069bf8ca30...](https://github.com/wayneeseguin/rvm/commit/c683a7c069bf8ca3054cea94d25dcbb034db8d90)
[3]
[https://github.com/wayneeseguin/rvm/commit/f856e3c8f50168776...](https://github.com/wayneeseguin/rvm/commit/f856e3c8f50168776d7dd8edd7edc052c9402591)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: McLaren College – an online bootcamp for Indians with no up-front fees - MarkMc
https://mclarencollege.in/
======
MarkMc
I'm the founder of McLaren College. You can think of it as kind of like
"Lambda School for India" \- the goal is to train people to earn an income
from computer programming in return for a share of their income. Happy to
answer any questions :)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Dtags: directory tags for lazy programmers - deltaone
https://github.com/joowani/dtags
======
krajaratnam
If you don't want to manually tag each directory, I'd suggest autojump
([https://github.com/wting/autojump](https://github.com/wting/autojump)).
It'll automatically track visited directories.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How to Stop a Hacker - Don't Trust User Input - NathanKP
http://experimentgarden.blogspot.com/2009/07/how-to-stop-hacker-dont-trust-user.html
======
ScottWhigham
Little Bobby Tables gets me every time...
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
At Behest of Judge, U.S. Shortens Man’s 57-Year Mandatory Sentence - ghshephard
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/30/nyregion/at-judges-behest-us-shortens-mans-57-year-mandatory-sentence.html
======
ghshephard
_Prosecutors offered him an 11-year plea deal that he turned down after his
lawyer persuaded him that he would be acquitted at trial. Mr. Holloway lost.
For the first conviction on the gun count, the law required Mr. Holloway to
receive five years. But for the second and third convictions, the law required
20 years for each one, served consecutively, in accordance with the stacking
requirement."_
I frequently hear an argument from people on HN who insist that Aaron Swartz
did not face a long prison sentence, and that the use of "stacking" makes it
seem longer than it really is.
Here's a counter example of stacking resulting in a long prison sentence.
Also - more on the use of "Stacking" by federal prosecutors:
[http://rt.com/usa/swartz-computer-law-cfaa-010/](http://rt.com/usa/swartz-
computer-law-cfaa-010/)
~~~
anigbrowl
I've made that argument, but I feel compelled to point out that the vast
majority of stacking/mandatory sentencing provisions apply to violent crimes,
and exist specifically to deter violence and the use of weapons in commission
of crimes, as well as to deter drug crimes (which is not to say that this
deterrent effect works in practice - I don't think it does, much).
I'd be happy to discuss this but we need to refer to some better source than
Russia Today, whose journalistic standards are execrable. Take this quote for
example...
_The CFAA, said Auernheimer, was written and approved by then-President
Ronald Reagan “at a time when he was so senile” that he thought Hollywood’s
interpretation of compute hackers was an accurate portrayal._
Reagan signed the CFAA, but the idea that he wrote it is ludicrous. Then
again, Weev loves to troll.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Passing Blocks in Ruby Without &block - mudgemeister
http://mudge.github.com/2011/01/26/passing-blocks-in-ruby-without-block.html
======
3pt14159
These are really cool and understanding how magic is implemented is great, but
when you are searching for the "tell_ape" method for 10 mins only to realize
that method_missing is doing the magic, it really is a bit of a piss off. If
you are going to do these tricks please for the nonwizard ruby coders out
there make it blatantly obvious in your README or comments or tests.
~~~
mudgemeister
This is a fair criticism: I've now updated the examples so they don't involve
method_missing so as to not needlessly complicate the issue.
~~~
3pt14159
Oh! I didn't mean to insult you or the blog post, I liked it very much, I
meant in production code or open source projects. Your blog post was very
straightforward and interesting.
------
spellboots
Heh awesome! Oh btw, I have one for you: alias become="sudo ~/s -" (in
.bashrc)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
PMOG - pius
http://pmog.com/
======
Readmore
Maybe I'm just stupid but the description doesn't make any sense to me. Anyone
who's played this care to do a quick overview?
~~~
Tichy
last I looked, it was something like RescueTime or 8aweek, with funny
graphics. Interesting, though.
~~~
Alex3917
Would this be an inappropriate time to suggest a merger between RescueTime and
Idle RPG? Imagine how much more productive you'd be if you leveled up inverse
proportionally to time spent surfing the web.
~~~
mdemare
That would be cool! e.g. at rescuetime my efficiency is at 83%. Yawn.
How much cooler would it be if I was a Zen Monk in the Order of Time wielding
a Staff of the Moon. With pretty graphics of course (and a widget for on my
blog).
I mean, people have already succeeded in turning MMORPGs into work (farming,
selling virtual stuff on ebay), why not turn work into an RPG?
~~~
Tichy
I think that is an accurate description of PMOG.
------
DarrenStuart
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=132451>
or
[http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2008/03/human-data-
as-...](http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2008/03/human-data-as-a.html)
------
jey
Is this better than ProgressQuest?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Study documents drought’s impact on redwood forest ferns - Mz
https://scienmag.com/study-documents-droughts-impact-on-redwood-forest-ferns/
======
mudil
Here's something interesting about ferns I recently learned. When scientists
were investigating the increased prevalence of gastric and other GI cancers in
Asian countries, they turned their attention to Braken fern, whose shoots
(fiddleheads) are commonly eaten in Asia, as well as in US. Turns out Braken
fern contains a well known and documented carcinogen called ptaquiloside or
PTA. It causes cancer in animals and in humans. But here's the kicker: Danish
scientist Lars Holm Rasmussen released a study in 2004 showing that the
carcinogenic PTA compound in bracken fern can leach from the plant into the
water supply, which may explain an increase in the incidence of gastric and
esophageal cancers in bracken-rich areas. Such as Pacific NW of US. (There is
also evidence that PTA is spread through inhalation of pores of ferns!)
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11945131](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11945131)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Unit Testing Isn’t the Best You Can Do [pdf] - yorwba
https://rbcs-us.com/documents/Segue.pdf
======
yorwba
The original title is a bit unspecific, so I used a sentence fragment from the
text instead; I feel that sums up the overall push of the article reasonably
well.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Remote for small teams: Coronavirus work from home tips - carsonfarmer
https://blog.textile.io/remote-for-small-teams-during-coronavirus/
======
devreps
Hope this helps!!!! Based on data we collected from 297 remote managers and
employees, here are 11 free chapters of best practices on how to manage a
remote team.
[https://knowyourteam.com/m/managing_remote_teams](https://knowyourteam.com/m/managing_remote_teams)
------
carsonfarmer
Just a bunch of useful tools and ideas our team has picked up along the way
while being remote only for the past few years.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Is Iran still on the Internet? Find out with a traceroute - cawel
http://howto.wired.com/wiki/Run_a_Traceroute
======
cawel
Gotta love the end: "Several lines of timeouts mean the packets are being held
up, clogged or lost somewhere along the way. Blame the terrorist group or
national intelligence organization of your choice." :)
Test results:
www.president.ir loads fine in my browser, but I tried: "traceroute
www.president.ir" 5 times, and I ended up with timeouts from the 23rd to the
30th hop. Close to the destination (destination's IP = 80.191.69.11), but not
quite reaching it...
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Watch This Tesla Drive Itself at the Press of a Button [video] - prateekj
http://techcrunch.com/2014/10/10/watch-this-tesla-drive-itself-at-the-press-of-a-button/?ncid=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Techcrunch+%28TechCrunch%29&utm_content=FaceBook
======
dave1619
I did a test ride of a P85D last night. It was breathtaking. The car explodes
(silently) of course like a rocket. It feel much, much faster than a regular
P85. Here's the test ride I took:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qm5CQZalLg8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qm5CQZalLg8)
It's difficult to explain in just words how fast 3.2 seconds is and I had a
difficult time grasping it myself until I actually sat in a Tesla P85D and
experienced it going from 0-60 in a blazing quick three seconds. It felt like
a completely different (and much quicker) car than the previous single-motor
P85. The car accelerates so quickly with so much force that I found myself in
disbelief and awe. Tesla truly engineered an amazing new version of the Model
S.
This new dual-motor version of the Model S is available to order in the
performance version and will be available in the 60kwh and 85kwh version
vehicles in February. Overall, having an AWD dual-motor version expands the
appeal of the Model S to more market segments, especially those in colder
areas. And the addition of a dual-motor performance version catapults the P85D
into the realm of a true super car.
Also in an unexpected and shocking move, Elon Musk announced Tesla's Autopilot
hardware at last night's event. Most people were expecting some trivial driver
assist features like lane departure warning and adaptive cruise control.
Further, in previous interviews Elon had alluded to Autopilot being ready by
the end of 2015. But in last night's announcement, Elon outlined a 4-part
Autopilot system that would allow for driving to become increasingly
autonomous over time.
The Autopilot system comprises of cameras, radar, sonar, and gps/navigation
integration. At first, the system will allow for drivers to use Autopilot to
keep in one's lane and to slow down or speed up depending on objects in front.
Over time with software updates, Autopilot will allow for full autonomous
driving from freeway on-ramp to freeway off-ramp. Autopilot will also allow
for the car to be able to park itself or even for it to be summoned by the
owner.
In my test ride last night in a P85D, there was a brief section where we were
able to see the car drive itself autonomously. The car followed the roads as
it curved and also adjusted for speed limits. It also managed to change lanes
by the driver just turning the signal light on. It was quite impressive.
What's further impressive is that Autopilot is a feature that is now added on
to the Tech Package at an additional minimal cost (new Tech package costs
$4250 vs old Tech package costed $3750). This is a great deal and will make
the car even more appealing to more people.
Here's the official video from last night's presentation by Elon regarding
dual-motor and Autopilot. The Autopilot description is especially interesting.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ6lZJWL_Xk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ6lZJWL_Xk)
(ps, for those interested I curate a weekly email newsletter called Tesla
Weekly, [http://teslaweekly.com](http://teslaweekly.com), with the latest news
regarding Tesla)
~~~
jmtame
I ride a GSXR 600 and it has the same 3.2 sec 0-60. It still rattles me every
time I push it that fast. I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around how they
can replicate that experience inside of an _electric_ car. Can't wait to test
drive it :)
~~~
agumonkey
I thought you were talking about another car. Then I reread he model number.
Now we all have a (very telling) comparison point.
~~~
scott_karana
> Now we all have a (very telling) comparison point.
Yes, an oranges to apples one. A $10,000 bike compared to a $100,000 car? A
~400 pound machine compared to a ~5000 pound one?
Yes, the Tesla is really cool, and has staggering acceleration, but let's not
get silly with comparisons (and accolades) here.
~~~
agumonkey
Come on, I meant about communicating what kind of acceleration you'd
experience. I rarely bump into sports car, but I've seen a lot of GSXR-class
bikes.
~~~
scott_karana
Sorry, in that case! I made a poor assumption :-/
You're right, it sounds like a reasonable frame of reference.
~~~
agumonkey
Classic internet. Have a nice day :)
------
MPSimmons
That acceleration is a bit like a roller coaster that you can drive.
~~~
zaroth
Truly not far from it... 0 - 60 in 3.2s = .85g
------
hauget
That looks amazing! But, if someone "gets funny" and paints a 25mph sign as
55, then what? Any countermeasures for this?
~~~
ceejayoz
I had a Tom Tom about 5 years ago that knew the speed limit on major roads.
I'd imagine Google et. al. are collecting that data even if it's not publicly
available in their mapping APIs yet.
~~~
runeks
> I'd imagine Google et. al. are collecting that data [...]
They are. All phones who have Google Maps installed, and have enabled
reporting (anonymous) position data (might be default on some phones) are
helping Google both see if there's a traffic jam somewhere, and see what the
actual driving speeds on the roads are (by sampling at a certain interval and
seeing distance traveled over time).
I happily contribute to this, I think it's a great idea to crowd-source
traffic data. I do hope Google makes the data publicly available though.
~~~
Ecio78
Waze[1] is all based on users' feedback and has been acquired by Google in
2013, so I think we'll see this more and more..
[1][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waze](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waze)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Bye, Amazon - grey-area
https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/202x/2020/04/29/Leaving-Amazon
======
jillesvangurp
It's a wake up call, or at least an attempt at that, for the likes of Amazon
that if they are looking to have reputable people, like Tim Bray, associate
themselves and their name with you, there are certain standards that have to
be met.
Amazon, MS, Google, Apple, etc. rank among the most wealthy companies in the
world and they've each had to deal with internal pressures where their
employees voiced concerns about certain things or where there was some kind of
whistle blower situation. And they each dealt with it in their own ways.
IMHO firing whistle blowers is the kind of action that should be called out as
very negative and not something to be apologetic about.
So, I admire what Tim Bray is doing here and fully understand that he's having
a hard time justifying working for what he's diplomatically not quite calling
out as a __holes; though the undertone is quite clear.
Of course as he is pointing out, he's in a position where he can afford to do
so financially. But then, being able to and actually doing are two things and
he's showing some back bone here by 1) walking away and taking a hit
financially, and 2) writing about it in the hope that leadership steps up and
acts to correct the situation: compensate individuals affected, offer to
rehire them, and discipline executives involved in pushing this through.
Unlikely to happen, but one can hope for someone with a backbone stepping up.
It would be the right thing to do. At the minimum, they've just been exposed
for what they are and that might have consequences elsewhere for them.
~~~
la6471
I don't think many people in amazon agree with Tim Bray. The pragmatic ones
know that these kind of stories have a heavy political overtone , but more
importantly amazon probably have better conditions than all other retailers in
the world. Granted it is not perfect but a more meaningful way to change the
condition of minimum wage or low wage laborers is through legislative changes
or basic income schemes.
~~~
Wilem82
> more importantly amazon probably have better conditions than all other
> retailers in the world
That's not possible, the US has the worst worker protection laws in the world,
it's really quite an undeveloped country in that regard.
~~~
vinay427
Source needed on that first claim. I've spent a decent amount of time in some
developing countries and I came out with no confidence that these types of
labor laws are ordinarily enforced, if they even exist. I think you grossly
overestimate these protections for relatively low-skilled labor outside of the
developed world.
I'm not taking the claim you replied to at face value (it's exceedingly
extreme to even be plausibly true) but they at least included a "probably" to
allow for some doubt.
------
xenocyon
My personal snapping point as a consumer occurred several years ago, over
something that's definitely not anecdotal:
When Amazon employees are frisked at the end of their shift (which is a
practice that applies to at least some warehouses), they are not paid for the
time they spend waiting in line to be frisked. This is not an anecdote; indeed
Amazon fought and won a court case insisting that it has the right to not
compensate employees for this time. (See [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-
usa-court-amazon-com/u-s-...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-court-
amazon-com/u-s-supreme-court-rejects-amazon-warehouse-worker-wage-appeal-
idUSKBN1WM1FI))
~~~
specialp
Yes for me too. The fact that Amazon is so cheap that they want employees to
sit around for 20-30 minutes after their shift unpaid to get searched to make
sure they aren't stealing blew me away. It is one thing if Amazon wants to do
this and pay their employees, but to not pay is wrong.
And they felt so strongly about this they appealed a case all the way to the
Supreme Court... That was the snapping point for me too and I have not ordered
from them in a long time.
~~~
pathseeker
Where do you draw the line? Should people be compensated for their commute?
It's an interesting debate that has emerged in airports as well:
[https://www.talbottlawfirm.com/does-an-employer-have-to-
pay-...](https://www.talbottlawfirm.com/does-an-employer-have-to-pay-
employees-for-time-spent-in-security-screenings-u-s-supreme-court-to-decide-
this-issue/)
~~~
ashtonkem
Commute is partially under the control of the worker, where I decide to live
has a huge impact on how long my commute is. I can freely decide to trade
commute for money, making it my responsibility.
Waiting in line to be frisked is something mandated by the employer. They
control whether or not I have to do it, and how long the lines are. Since it’s
under their control, it’s their financial responsibility.
~~~
kortilla
That’s a bit disingenuous when short commutes are literally not affordable to
some of the people we’re talking about.
~~~
afiori
But no employer would force you to have long commutes.
It may be impossible in some cases to have short commutes, but if, even by
chance, you managed to move in the same building as your office no one would
force you to go through the metro.
Commutes are clearly a grey area, waiting times to be let "free" are less so.
------
hourislate
Completely anecdotal.
It's possible some Amazon Warehouses are run better than others. A friend who
recently got a job (5 weeks ago) at one of Amazons warehouses (NJ/NYC area)
has only praise for the way things are run. They take his temperature 3 times
a day, provide a mask, constantly monitor social distancing, clean washrooms
every hour, enforce social distancing in any break rooms, work areas, etc. He
says it's never an issue with breaks, lunch, etc. He has mentioned that they
encourage him to keep an eye out for other positions he might have an interest
in since he is eligible (after 30 days)to apply (he has some skills that can
be more useful to Amazon).
I was always under the assumption from what I have read that Amazon was a
sweat shop. It seems that at least his facility is run very well.
~~~
pwinnski
Bray didn't quit over the conditions in the warehouses, he quit over Amazon's
brazen and dishonest firings of organizers.
It's possible that if _every_ Amazon warehouse were run as well, those
organizers would not have arisen, but it's Amazon nastiness toward them that's
most alarming.
~~~
toasterlovin
Have you considered the possibility that Amazon actually treats their workers
okay and that it's the organizers are dishonest? Why does the presumption of
evil only go in one direction?
~~~
pietrovismara
Just compare the incentives for both parts to be dishonest and you have your
answer. What would workers gain from being dishonest except the risk of being
fired or retaliated upon?
And why, if organizers are lying, can't Amazon just disprove them by showing
to the public their perfect working conditions?
Finally, isn't it a natural instinct to side with the weaker element in a
fight?
Does Amazon really need your support, or are the workers one paycheck away
from homelessness in need of it?
~~~
shadowgovt
> What would workers gain from being dishonest
Union representation and improved compensation and employment benefits.
Not to say either party is being honest or being dishonest. But it's clear
there's plenty to gain on both sides by, on the one hand, painting organizers
ad bad employees, and on the other hand, painting working conditions as worse
than they are.
~~~
paypalcust83
Peeing in Coke bottles because of a lack of bathrooms and allowances for
biological needs might be a sign.
~~~
DonHopkins
What?!? Now I'm canceling that case of Coca Cola I just ordered on Amazon
Prime.
------
stupidcar
> At the end of the day, it’s all about power balances. The warehouse workers
> are weak and getting weaker...
Whenever I speak to someone working in a "low-skilled" job, I'm always
astonished and embarrassed by how different their work environment sounds to
the kind of offices I work in. There seems to be a consistent theme of
employees being treated with suspicion, condescension and outright hostility.
This gets to the heart of the idea of "privilege", and why it can be so
difficult to see yourself as privileged. Because it often involves nothing
more than being given a basic level of trust and respect that, once you have
them, can seem like a bare minimum, not something that you would need to fight
for.
~~~
supergeek133
I think this is a two way street. If you've never been involved at a
management or ownership level of a business that has "low pay" labor (e.g.,
food service, warehouse, retail sales).
For every 2-3 decent workers there is one that just takes pure advantage of
the environment (e.g., stealing product, stealing time, etc). Sometimes this
occurs at great cost for a period of time before it is discovered. EDIT: This
was meant to be illustrative, not an exact ratio.
This makes companies take extreme policy measures for the few instances of
this that impact everyone, because the financial impact is so
disproportionate.
Now, the argument can (and is) made that pay is a factor. "If you pay me more
I won't act like this". But depending on the business (e.g., a local pizza
place) there is no affording that.
~~~
oppositelock
I can confirm this, having first hand experience with it. We hired many low-
skill workers at a big tech company that you've heard of about ten years ago.
These workers received a couple of weeks of training, and then were set to do
a rather simple, menial, repetitive job.
These workers didn't sell products, but did very low level tech work, but the
entire operation was mired in drama. For example, we had a strict no drugs
policy, and no weapons policy on campus, zero tolerance. So, say that one of
your employees comes up crying that she is getting fired because she did
heroin during work hours, and she needs to money for her unborn child (this
happened!), or a guy gets angry at being fired because he was pulling out his
new .45 from his waistband to show his cubicle neighbors. We had a LOT of this
stuff, and as a result, many zero tolerance policies.
It's difficult to understand how many hard living, disadvantaged people there
are in this country, even in wealthy areas like the Bay Area of CA, who bring
their rough living to work with them. What do you do as an employer? Do you
tolerate this to be friendlier to the employees, and someone gets killed,
making you liable? Do you come down like a hardass and dehumanize them even
more, but cover your butt? Neither choice is good, but it's the latter that
usually happens.
~~~
johnmaguire2013
Maybe you can work on your hiring practices? Even for low-skill jobs, you can
hire for soft skills.
edit: I am being downvoted and don't know why. Can you please explain what's
wrong with this idea? I think the parent paints a false dichotomy.
For example - another option is to deal with problematic individuals on an
individual basis. You don't have to ruin the entire company culture.
~~~
oppositelock
For some really annoying grunt jobs, you're not going to hire the most
disciplined, most educated people with a good work ethic. People willing to do
tedious, crappy work have no other options usually, and you also can't be too
picky, or you won't hire anyone. These jobs typically have low value as well,
so if you tried to pay more, the whole project may not be cost effective and
won't happen.
You definitely need to treat people with as much respect as possible, but in
some jobs, you have to have all these rules in place knowing you'll get people
who aren't model citizens. I was never in the HR org chart here, never saw
finances, but I suspect the people that I mentioned were paid near minimum
wage. Few stuck around more than six months, and those who did, moved onto
better jobs. It was all very structured and regimented. I would never fire
anyone for trying to make their workplace better, assuming they did it in a
non-disruptive way.
------
simonebrunozzi
> I quit in dismay at Amazon firing whistleblowers
Assuming this is the real true reason (I would trust Tim, but you never know,
so just being explicit here), it takes huge balls to do something like this.
The economic loss has to be somewhat taken in relation to your total wealth
(e.g. if you lose $1M by quitting but you already have $10M+ in the bank, it's
not as hard as if you had zero in the bank), but still... Very few people
would have the courage to walk away from big sums of money purely on
principle.
Again, assuming this is all true, I admire Tim for this move, and plaude him.
I had my issues with Amazon when I was there (2008-2014), some of them made me
uncomfortable, but I would have never had the courage to walk away.
It also potentially damages Tim's ability to get hired in the future, as some
other large organization might not like his behavior with Amazon and be
reluctant to bring him on board. At the same time, hopefully there are smaller
startups that want exactly this type of courage and rectitude and will hire
him for his talents.
Good luck, Tim.
~~~
reitzensteinm
I think you can trust that it's the real reason, because either way it's going
to make him radioactive for the next gig like this.
No large company keeps its hands completely clean. Defense contracts, Chinese
censorship, exploiting addiction, anticompetitive behaviour, sexism, the list
goes on.
Having a public figure at your company that's willing to martyr themselves to
push the knife in just a little deeper when you have a scandal is a dumb idea.
~~~
krig
What an utter disaster this society is if having a conscience makes you
"radioactive" to employers. I can only aspire to be as radioactive as
possible, then.
~~~
YayamiOmate
Well, this is interesting because, subset of people deciding one is
"radioactive" is very small compared to whole society, but in general the
society is selforganized. There is no oppression. People have money and power
because other people give it to them.
I guess people collecitvely want to have black characters in power to do the
dirty, making their live easier overall. I don't see other reason "western"
societies don't change people in power when they actually can.
~~~
scruffups
<< society is selforganized. There is no oppression.>>
Self-oppression? Sure. But it does not mean that oppression doesn't exist.
It's just that it is self caused, and self here refers to society as a whole.
Oppression exists whether it's self-inflicted or inflicted by one/many upon
another/others.
~~~
rmrfstar
It's tough to call it self-oppression when our governance mechanisms are
literally unresponsive to 90% of the public.
See [1] pdf page 10.
[1]
[https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/fi...](https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/files/gilens_and_page_2014_-testing_theories_of_american_politics.doc.pdf)
~~~
scruffups
I understand. But a significant percentage of people keep voting for stooges
and corporatists. What do you call that? Maybe not your self but the
collective self is responsible, no?
------
paganel
The right thing to do.
I've never met Tim and I will probably never meet him, I only know that he was
one of first programmers/computer people whose blog I started reading back
when I got into programming (more than 15 years ago, closer to 20) and as such
one could say that I looked up to him. I'm glad that I chose the right person
to "look up to".
------
ssklash
I'm shocked that so many bright, talented engineers go to work for Companies
like Google and Amazon and Facebook. While I'm glad some see the light about
the real mission of these companies (it's not about "connecting people",
"providing delightful customer experiences", "doing no evil" or any of that
BS) and ultimately quit, but what concerns me is how so many clearly
incredibly bright and talented people are able to ignore so many red flags and
go to work for these companies. Google and Facebook are about acquiring
personal data to sell ads, that's it! You're not adding value, no matter what
interesting, complicated, bleeding edge, world-class problems you're solving.
The world is worse off for all of it, and you're helping.
~~~
joeys7
Back when I was in university, I feel like they really brainwashed me to think
these tech companies were making the world a better place. I was too naive. I
think a lot of young software engineers started out like me.
There’s also the fact that these companies are so big, they have a lot of
variation inside them. For example at Amazon Music, there really isn’t a lot
of evilness there, it’s just getting people to pay up for music streaming.
Still some unfairness in the music industry for smaller artists, but that’s
often the labels stepping on them.
A lot of us at Amazon knows this company is kinda evil now. I was thinking
about resigning over these recent firings, but another activist convinced me
to stay so we can continue pushing the company to be less evil.
Essentially if we are willing to resign from a job, we have nothing to lose so
we can take bigger activism risks.
~~~
pm90
Same. When I was in college, all my peers talked about FAANG's in glowing
terms. Doesn't help that these companies often recruit heavily from
Universities, so you have alum networks that talk about how great the
companies are etc. Its quite an evil genius. When people finally do get a job,
they often realize its not always the cool shit that they heard about; most
often than not its some uncool shit that brings in a ton of money.
This isn't to discount the amazing engineering work that these orgs tend to
do. But look at their workforce numbers and tell me with a straight face that
all their engineers are working on solving tough engineering problems and not
just a cog in the optimization machine.
~~~
pathseeker
That's just because 5+ years ago Amazon/Facebook/Google weren't "giant evil
shit-lords" so-to-speak. They were cool even among industry folks. It wasn't
long ago that having Google on your resume meant something was special about
you.
Facebook/Google/Amazon aren't really cool in colleges anymore either.
------
mercury_craze
Amazon is a great evil.
It will not be remembered as a company that has had been a positive influence
on the world but as a company that has treated its employees (both hourly and
salaried) with contempt, driven independent stores out of business and refused
to play on a level playing field both through its shady business practices or
its refusal to pay tax.
Well done to Tim Bray for acting according to his conscience. Hopefully this
sets an example to other Amazon employees and other tech workers working in
similarly morally compromised organisations.
~~~
enitihas
Which is the mythical company treating their low-skill workers far better than
Amazon? Does the rest of big tech even employ their non professionals
directly? Which of big tech directly employ their janitors and treat them much
better than Amazon warehouse workers? Which of big non tech company does this?
>its refusal to pay tax.
What do you even mean by this? Companies can't refuse to pay tax. They have to
pay tax as per law. If you mean they are using legal mechanisms to not pay
their maximum possible tax, how is that different from Apple or other big tech
keeping money in tax heavens.
> driven independent stores out of business
And which big/successful comapny doesn't drive out competitors out of
business? Google/FB have driven local newspapers out of business by sucking
away all the ad money. MSFT squashed all the competition by extremely evil
business practices.
> It will not be remembered as a company that has had been a positive
> influence on the world
Again, which is the mythical company you are using as a benchmark here?
~~~
mercury_craze
Ignoring the bad faith questioning, I dont have to provide a gold standard in
order to criticise Amazon. Everything I've said is extremely well documented.
~~~
enitihas
Off course, you don't have to provide any standard to criticize whatever you
deem fit. The point of my comment is not to ask you to provide a benchmark,
but more to point out the flaw in your arguments to future readers. I admit I
could have done this in a better way. But my point is without a relative
benchmark, one can criticize anything and everything, even though the
criticism encodes very less information. To brand something evil, it has to be
compared to it's peers in it's time frame. Or else I can brand every single
company and human being on the planet evil for n number of reasons, e.g, for
not paying their lowest paid workers enough, or for not doing enough to combat
climate change. These will apply to every single company for some definition
of "enough", and if I don't have to provide a benchmark, I can set enough at
any point.
~~~
jeromegv
This is one of the largest company in the world, it is normal that they get
criticized more than smaller companies. They have more resources and abilities
to make changes than most companies. And I disagree, we can criticize a
company regardless if we provide the example of a better company or not. When
it comes to workers abuse in the middle of a pandemic, "everyone else is bad"
is not a good answer, i'm sorry. That's just a recipe for never changing
anything. One can hope for better worker treatment regardless, this is how
progress is made.
~~~
fastball
Does AMZN in fact have more resources to make changes?
I would generally argue that your ability to change your org is somewhat
limited by your profit margins. It is hard to pay warehouse workers more, for
instance, if your margins are razor thin. While AMZN's profit margin is not
quite the 0 it used to be, it is certainly not stellar by any means. And it is
certainly not as good as many, many other companies.
------
adreamingsoul
I'm still feeling blue from leaving AWS back in mid-2019. I worked with a
talented team, had an amazing manager, and overall miss everyone all the way
up to the VP of the org.
Articulating why I left has not been easy, but Mr. Bray touches on some of the
issues that resonate with me.
------
miked85
> I’m sure it’s a coincidence that every one of them is a person of color, a
> woman, or both. Right?
Including this bit is interesting. So he is accusing Amazon of being both
sexist and racist in addition to treating workers poorly.
~~~
simonhfrost
In my opinion it was more from the perspective that minorities may have a more
empathetic view on problems, after likely experiencing dealing with problems
other more privileged people don't have to.
In this case: one of the biggest benefits of hiring minorities... ending up
being the reason you fire them.
~~~
dennis_jeeves
Counterpoint: Since many companies are under (public?) pressure to fill in
some minority quota, they with end with relatively incompetent people from the
minority group.
Also my personal observation: an incompetent person from a minority group is
likely to see a failed transaction through their own colored 'minority' lens.
Eg. a woman who has been turned down for a job will attribute it to her being
a woman and no other reason. For a white guy who has been turned down - it's
life as usual.
~~~
noelsusman
I've seen plenty of white guys blame minority quotas and nothing else after
being turned down for a job. There is also little evidence that companies are
hiring hoards of incompetent people to fill minority quotas. If they were,
then why does every tech company still struggle with a lack of diversity in
the workplace? It would be easy to just hire whoever can tick a diversity box
and fix those numbers, but they're not actually doing that because that would
be stupid.
~~~
lawnchair_larry
Diversity quotas are absolutely real, and publicly documented all over the
place. Activist shareholders are filing resolutions and threatening companies
with lawsuits and bad PR. I was involved in hiring at some large tech
companies and we had very specific targets to meet, _”or else”_. I don’t know
how anyone can still deny that this is happening.
~~~
jeromegv
Re-read again, OP did not deny that minority quota exists. OP refuted the
somewhat popular opinion that incompetent people are being hired BECAUSE of
minority quotas.
------
econcon
I also quit tech, so I don't really respect the people who get job at these
companies, they are basically modern day enabler for bad things that happen at
these companies. Companies aren't nothing without their employees helping them
do the things and that unfortunately includes the bad things.
I now run my own business and pay everyone fairly and treat everyone well.
~~~
otachack
Is your business non-tech related? I've had ideas to leave, myself, but with
the times we're in with small businesses getting hit hard it seems it'll take
extra courage to do so.
~~~
econcon
It's small scale manufacturing for communities, I am doing this work in India
where it can help quality of life of people who are not aware about
mechanism/machines which can improve their productivity and safety.
------
lmilcin
I don't think many people take it into account, but many companies look up to
tech giants and replicate their actions.
When company the size of Amazon can get away with this kind of heavy handed
employee treatment, the results are affecting many, many more people that it
might seem on the surface.
------
mmaunder
Very difficult to put emotion aside when thinking about these things. I expect
to be crucified for even asking this question because the audience here has a
bias towards supporting activism. But oh well here goes:
If Amazon condone and even enable employee activism, what bad things could
that enable? I don’t mean unions. I mean a group of say 20 employees trying to
bring about a change they truly believe in.
Amazon has over 500,000 employees. Think of the number of edge cases. You
agree with these good folks that were fired. But what about carrying guns to
work? Conservative or liberal issues if you’re the other side of the table?
That employee base is a small city. Is every warehouse a town square with
freedom to assemble? Every office?
Fighting the good fight is often necessary. But it’s also a seductive idea
until it’s not your fight and disrupting your day - or worse, something you
vehemently disagree with and is causing you distress.
Is there another side to this argument?
(Edit for spelling)
~~~
komali2
I understand where you're going for, but imo that's never been a valid
argument against self-determination.
I think your argument can be made simpler: why should we trust people to be
allowed to decide for themselves? Won't they decide to do stupid and harmful
things? Won't they decide to hurt eachother? Won't they decide to steal from
eachother, and murder eachother?
No, is the answer, because laws were created somehow, right? We don't trust
the government to babysit us - we _created_ the government so we wouldn't have
to babysit eachother.
We don't need the board to tell us what we can and can't do - we can figure
that well enough on our own. What we _don 't_ need is a board that assumes it
knows best. It doesn't, it can't possibly, in fact it is existentially unable
to do anything but raise shareholder value. So, the more employee self-
determination, the better.
I think it's _very_ unlikely that employees will decide they want to have guns
at work instead of, say, a security system, or maybe offices in places with
low crime, etc. I think it's very unlikely that employees will decide, I
dunno, that they want the right to shit on eachother's desk, or whatever other
fairly-objectively-negative thing you can think up. The right to paste racial
slurs all over the office, maybe? Bigotry, bullying, and hatred are swiftly
becoming a minority, and a fair system almost universally causes those
minority viewpoints to lose power. They only maintain it in imbalanced
systems...
And worse case scenario, if Amazon turns into the kind of office where you
have to shoot your way in just to get to your desk, we can have the government
intervene and shut the place down (with our labor laws), and maybe someone can
set up a better business where you don't have to shoot your way to your desk.
~~~
aeroevan
> I think it's very unlikely that employees will decide they want to have guns
> at work instead of, say, a security system, or maybe offices in places with
> low crime, etc. I think it's very unlikely that employees will decide, I
> dunno, that they want the right to shit on eachother's desk, or whatever
> other fairly-objectively-negative thing you can think up.
I think his point is that carrying guns to work is not a fairly-objectively-
negative thing for the 1/3 of America that owns guns.
------
_curious_
"That done, remaining an Amazon VP would have meant, in effect, signing off on
actions I despised. So I resigned."
Hope to see more individuals in tech standing up for what they believe to be
right, willing to make sacrifices or even walk away if needed, and ultimately
tell their story publicly. This is how you do it!
------
lftherios
We need more Tims in the tech world.
From a place for renegades, the valley has quickly become a safe place for
"yes men", that all they do is to obey to their corporate overlords.
~~~
scarface74
It’s easy to take a moral stand when you have millions and are close to
retirement.
~~~
Lammy
s/easy/possible/
------
alexpetralia
This article now hit the front page of the Financial Times:
[https://www.ft.com/content/ea6946d8-532e-4724-ada7-eebb887c8...](https://www.ft.com/content/ea6946d8-532e-4724-ada7-eebb887c8c43)
~~~
dredmorbius
[http://archive.md/D2qjy](http://archive.md/D2qjy)
------
thanksforfish
> Any plausible solution has to start with increasing their collective
> strength.
Legislation or unionization. Any other routes?
~~~
pgrote
>unionization
I am confused why there weren't wholesale strikes in the grocery, retail,
warehouse, gig workforces during the shutdowns. Workers had complete power to
force change.
~~~
azernik
Because of active union-busting efforts, which have made it hard for these
workers to organize collective action.
Walmart: [https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/06/how-
wal...](https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/06/how-walmart-
convinces-its-employees-not-to-unionize/395051/)
Whole Foods (post-acquisition):
[https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/sep/27/amazon-
whol...](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/sep/27/amazon-whole-foods-
training-video-union-busting-efforts-staff)
Uber: [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/22/uber-lyft-
ip...](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/22/uber-lyft-ipo-drivers-
unionize-low-pay-expenses)
Amazon: [https://gizmodo.com/amazons-aggressive-anti-union-tactics-
re...](https://gizmodo.com/amazons-aggressive-anti-union-tactics-revealed-in-
leake-1829305201)
This is not a new problem; low-wage workers have _always_ had the collective
power to force change, and businesses and business-friendly have always worked
tirelessly to disrupt that collective action.
------
red_admiral
This is what being a capital-A Ally looks like. I take my hat off to you, sir.
~~~
2ion
He's just somebody with FY money in the bank so he can do whatever he wants in
a larger scope than others. I'll keep my hat on; this is nothing special in
his position.
~~~
kharak
Excuse me? How many people with FY money do what he did? What he did IS the
exception and henceforth noteworthy.
~~~
red_admiral
@scollet [below]: he does a prety good job of linking to ground floor worker's
narratives in his post - using his increased exposure and prestige to "signal
boost" them, as a millenial would say. Or am I reading that wrong?
------
treebornfrog
Completely anecdotal.
I went on an amazon warehouse tour in Tilbury, UK. (1).
It was a tour of everything they do, at one stage they asked the guy stowing
to do a demo and he flat out refused because he had to hit his targets.
(1) Amazon UK Services Ltd. Tilbury - LCY2
London Distribution Park, Windrush Rd, Tilbury RM18 7AN
[https://g.co/kgs/8E4bgd](https://g.co/kgs/8E4bgd)
------
kerng
Bezos in front of congress just got a lot more interesting. This is something
that they will likely spend a lot of time on.
------
Maakuth
His page seems to be melting under HN effect (was: Slashdot effect), luckily
IA seems to have a copy:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20200504111506/https://www.tbray...](https://web.archive.org/web/20200504111506/https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/202x/2020/04/29/Leaving-
Amazon)
~~~
Jaruzel
HN 'Hug-of-death' is what we call it around here.
~~~
greenyoda
Bray's blog post was linked to by a story on CNBC, which has much more traffic
than HN: [https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/04/amazon-engineer-resigns-
over...](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/04/amazon-engineer-resigns-over-
companys-treatment-of-workers.html)
------
ableal
Cached version:
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:wi2hPnT...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:wi2hPnTXhhoJ:https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/202x/2020/04/29/Leaving-
Amazon&hl=en&gl=pt&strip=1&vwsrc=0)
------
kjgkjhfkjf
I don't mean to rag specifically on Tim here, but most posts like this one
probably should not be taken entirely at face value. My guess is that he left
Amazon mostly for other more mundane reasons, and he used the well-known
issues with how Amazon treat their workers as a means to exit in a blaze of
righteous glory.
~~~
WolfeReader
Do you have any evidence of these more mundane reasons? Otherwise, you're just
speculating. And since Bray did a very good job of linking to sources for his
stated reasons, I'm inclined to take his claims seriously at least until other
evidence indicates otherwise.
(On the other hand, I highly suspect that you yourself have "other" reasons to
cast doubt on Bray's claims. I have as much reason to doubt your motives as
you do to doubt Bray's, right?)
~~~
kjgkjhfkjf
Is it not clear that I was speculating from language like "my guess is", and
is it not clear that I'm not trying to cast aspersions on Tim's specific
motives from language like "I don't mean to rag specifically on Tim"?
~~~
WolfeReader
All of your uses of "he" were referring to Bray himself. That's how pronouns
work.
And you can say "guess" all you want. There was nothing in his post, or any
other article I know of, that indicates Bray's motives were anything other
than what he said (and backed up with extensive supporting evidence). So your
motivation to "guess" doesn't come from the article itself, nor from any
competing evidence (which I doubt exists since you would've already posted
it).
"I don't mean to specifically call out kjgkjhfkjf, but my guess is that he
feels compelled to downplay legitimate criticisms of Amazon, and he used the
well-known techniques of ad-hominem and FUD as a means to defend Amazon
without actual compelling counterarguments." <\- I assume you agree with that
sentence, since it uses all of your same rhetorical techniques.
~~~
kjgkjhfkjf
No, you have misunderstood me. My point was that grandstanding posts from
people who have recently left desirable positions should generally not be
taken at face value. I was not arguing that his claims about Amazon's policies
are questionable. This should be evident from my use of the language "well-
known issues" in my original comment.
------
ksec
I am going to ask a slightly different question relating to the problem.
How do you get another job?
Do you tell your potential employer you quit because of (your) principle? That
you fundamentally disagree with your previous company? How will the new
company judge you?
Now of coz if you are in the market that is chasing for talent ( like
programming and tech ) this wouldn't be a much of a problem. What if you were
the Amazon Warehouse Manager? Which is probably 100x more replaceable than say
a software engineer?
Most business seems to operate with talent are everywhere, opportunities are
scarce mentality. They would much rather they hire a class B employees than a
class A activist.
~~~
rantwasp
OP does not have this issue. He is a highly visible/highly respected for his
technical skills. I’m willing to bet you money that he is being flooded as we
type with offers. Not all people have this position but the act of quitting
out of principle is still something that takes a huge amount of courage.
------
jsnell
Does anyone know what the "laughable justifications" for the firings were?
~~~
morelisp
In one case, an organizer was fired for refusing to not come to work after
being put on "quarantine", three weeks after he was initially exposed and not
given any leave, and no one else involved in the exposure was quarantined.
[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/31/amazon-
strik...](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/31/amazon-strike-
worker-fired-organizing-walkout-chris-smallls)
The specific incidents Bray discussed seemed to be on a private internal list,
and specifically related to AECJ so probably not this issue - I doubt anyone
will leak it as unless there's something especially egregious (not just
specious justification, but something like a racial or sexist slur) it doesn't
really benefit either side.
------
LatteLazy
I think a lot of the reason people hate on Amazon is just bad PR. Plenty of
other companies are just as bad, or worse. Walmart has been a shit hole long
before Amazon even existed and its worse than amazon. But Amazon steadfastly
refuse to pretend they care. Bezos isn't constantly paying people to lie and
pretend Amazon is a family and its workers are deeply valued.
Perversely, I actually think that's more honest and more likely to bring about
changes to actually help workers...
------
cromantic
I applaud this move from Tim. It takes gumption to walk away from a VP-level
FAANG salary for anything, especially personal morals. I have only one small
thing to add as an ex-Amazon employee:
>Amazon Web Services (the “Cloud Computing” arm of the company), where I
worked, is a different story. It treats its workers humanely, strives for
work/life balance, struggles to move the diversity needle (and mostly fails,
but so does everyone else), and is by and large an ethical organization. I
genuinely admire its leadership.
This was not and (as far as I keep in contact with old coworkers) is not the
case for people working in the data centers operations department. I imagine
that area shares similarities with the average warehouse environment. There is
a quick turnover (a year on average), a dependence on contracted workers,
demanding physical labor, untrustworthy managers, and most of all, the
dehumanizing metrics. I remember most of us had dreams to transition to cloud
support and get away from the lonely and stressful life as a data center tech.
I think the only people feeling okay at Amazon are corporate and/or AWS
software engineers. The rest are feeling the full effects of Amazon's
corporate culture. Which is to say, the full rod of Bezos' sadistic corporate
philosophy.
------
kbash9
> What about AWS? · Amazon Web Services (the “Cloud Computing” arm of the
> company), where I worked, is a different story. It treats its workers
> humanely, strives for work/life balance, struggles to move the diversity
> needle (and mostly fails, but so does everyone else), and is by and large an
> ethical organization.
As a former employee of AWS, I can vouch for this. AWS and Amazon.com should
be looked at two totally different entities in terms of employee experience.
~~~
twomoretime
I feel like the only people who are surprised by the difference are those who
have only ever held white collar jobs.
They're totally different cultures. Weren't talking about two different
classes of people. And unfortunately you can't expect the same standards and
rules to be appropriate for both groups.
------
odysseus
It's interesting that Mr. Bray is declining to post comments on his site that
are even slightly constructively critical of some of the things he's
advocating for in this post. (Can anyone find a non-congratulatory or even
slightly critical comment below his post on his site? Did I miss one?)
He has every right to filter negative comments, but it makes me not want to
read his site further if all he does is post non-contrary opinions.
------
chanmad29
Amazon deserves this criticism but I think there is nothing to single them
out. Most for-profit companies would behave in a similar fashion unless there
is a competition for these workers that will force Amazon to treat them
better. Since Amazon is operating in virtual monopoly here, there is no
incentive for them to behave differently unless there are stronger laws such
as minimum wage etc..
~~~
birdyrooster
On the contrary, Amazon's success is precedent setting and it is such a strong
company that singling them out can cause the rest of the industry to shift.
------
tsegratis
Can we also do something ourselves?
AWS spending and consumers turning a blind eye enables such issues to arise
These things are fueled not just by desire for profit, but also our own
materialistic focus. If we buy into the latest and greatest products, rather
than where they came from, then to some extent isn't it we who have enabled
these rights abuses in various countries and companies, to support our own
appetites?
------
caleb-allen
I'm having issues with this url, here is a link from archive.org:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20200504093003/https://www.tbray...](https://web.archive.org/web/20200504093003/https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/202x/2020/04/29/Leaving-
Amazon)
------
gadders
As the saying goes "A principle isn't a principle unless it costs you money."
Fair play to him for standing up for what he believes.
~~~
gowld
Hehe 64 and very rich. It cost his grandchildren money (if he has any), not
him.
------
fataliss
I wish there was of some sort of association or union for people in the
Software industry. While we are typically much better treated than basically
every single other type of worker out there, we lack the assurance of
protection when it comes to challenging our employers. In a country where your
healthcare, your retirement and possibly your immigration status are tied to
your employment, how can one feel confident that sticking to their convictions
like you did will not cost them and their family a cost so great that they
cannot bear it. I would like for Software and more generally tech workers of
all trade to be able to say NO or ENOUGH, when working for a company that
steals tips, coerces workers into unfavorable situation or plainly disrespects
human rights. I dream of a world where workers can rely on something having
their back when making the right decision.
~~~
rrrrrrrrrrrryan
Unions are primarily useful for workers who don't have the ability to
negotiate their salary before accepting a job. By banding together, they're
able to negotiate wages that more closely align with the value of their work.
Knowledge workers are expected to do this for themselves on an individual
basis as they're not really interchangeable.
I do wish people pushed for more democratic decision-making in their places of
work, though. I've read that in Google's early days people were mainly
promoted by peer-evaluations, and there was a mechanism to remove a manager
from power if they lost the confidence of most of their subordinates.
~~~
fataliss
Yeah, I am more interested in union in it's power to uphold moral values. If
you ever were to be sued for whistle blowing something despicable or wrongly
fired for defending a coworker's right and other behaviors we see at the likes
of Amazon. There is power in unity beyond money.
------
runawaybottle
I often have this discussion with a friend about how to figure out your place
in a company.
It is very important to figure out what class you belong to in a company. Some
try to boil this down to ‘cost-centers’, but it isn’t always that simple.
Warehouse workers are second class citizens at Amazon. This can be true for a
developer in certain environments, it can be true for designers, etc.
I’ve worked at places where developers are second class citizens compared to
Project/Product management, and then I’ve seen where designers are second
class citizens to developers. It can be even more granular where frontend is
second class to backend, or vice versa.
However you figure it out, if you find out you are a second class citizen
there, you have to move on, as your potential is capped by the business
priorities/culture/structure. It’s never a good fit.
------
querez
> I’m sure it’s a coincidence that every one of them is a person of color, a
> woman, or both. Right?
This part of the article jumped at me -- If this is true, then I'd have to say
"yes, coincidence". No company (let alone one as large as Amazon) would be
_that_ stupid in 2020.
~~~
alkibiades
if anything i’d expect them to go out of their way to fire some white men to
avoid lawsuits
~~~
gdy
Yep, not diverse enough without white men.
------
youeseh
People who need to job to make ends meet usually have a lot more to lose. This
very quickly creates an environment where there are real imbalances. The
perception of these real imbalances can be even greater if there's a breakdown
in trust / communication.
------
xrd
I've read a few comments here that Tim Bray would be better off staying at
Amazon to make change from within.
This morning I attempted to renew a domain at a GoDaddy subsidiary, and as I
scrolled down to look for the contact information I saw that GoDaddy appears
to be registered in the Cayman Islands.
I'm genuinely curious (I mean that) to ask if the same question is asked of
companies that go offshore. Isn't this all about tax evasion? And, shouldn't
they be asked to fight for change from within in the same way?
I honestly think many people on HN would support overhauling our tax code
alongside a corporation with deep pockets. So why not?
------
fortran77
As an Amazon customer, I've gone from admiring the company to distrusting
them. I can't trust products I buy from them; this lack of care is a problem
with the very fabric of the organization.
One nit to pick: "Climate Change" groups, and the like should keep their focus
narrow. I have trouble getting behind many groups because they seem to need to
have a position on every "progressive" issue. The Climate Change group should
have stuck to climate change, and another employee action group created to
make sure the needs of all the Amazon employees across the company are being
taken seriously.
------
tinyhouse
|"May 1st was my last day as a VP and Distinguished Engineer at Amazon Web
Services, after FIVE years and five months of rewarding fun"
5.5 years means more than fully vested and probably time for a change
anyway...
~~~
DVassallo
You're never fully vested. I $650K of unvested AMZN stock when I left after
8.5 years.
~~~
tinyhouse
By fully vested I meant the initial 4 years, which is the package you usually
get when joining a tech company. Given his caliber I bet it was a fat one. Add
to that the run the stock had in the last 5 years. At his age and with his
wealth, it's not unlikely he has been considering leaving regardless.
------
treve
Nice to see someone standing up. I have a hard time understanding how
developers with options to move to different companies ethically justify
working for companies like Amazon, Facebook, Oracle or Walmart.
~~~
abvdasker
I personally have a list of tech and finance companies I've resolved to never
work for, and anecdotally I know other engineers with similar lists.
Amazon is near the top of mine for its harmful business practices and open
contempt for its workers. The former Amazon employees I know tend to describe
the experience of being an engineer there in less than favorable terms (and as
engineers their experience is obviously going to be much better than a
warehouse worker's).
Maybe if companies like Amazon which treat their workers poorly were to face a
kind of engineering labor boycott, they could be forced to behave more
ethically.
------
yalogin
Am curious, what happens if an engineer quit like this after writing a blog
about the company, does it have a negative impact on their hirability? Do
other companies not want him or does it not matter?
~~~
msoad
Tim is not "an engineer". He is not gonna look for jobs.
~~~
yalogin
I should have clarified, the question was about a general engineer, not Tim.
------
therealdrag0
Splitting AWS off from Amazon Markets is one split-up I would support the
government doing. Without the cash-cow, it might reduce Amazon Markets
domination, and allow more competitive alternatives.
------
sneak
> _What about AWS? · Amazon Web Services (the “Cloud Computing” arm of the
> company), where I worked, is a different story. It treats its workers
> humanely, strives for work /life balance, struggles to move the diversity
> needle (and mostly fails, but so does everyone else), and is by and large an
> ethical organization._
I find it very difficult to reconcile this statement with the fact that AWS
provides services to the US military to help them perpetrate mass murder more
effectively and directly vends to the suborganization inside the US government
that operates concentration camps for children. It's fallen out of the news
cycle, but this is still happening today, and AWS is still accepting money to
help them carry out their crimes.
[https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/publicsector/training-the-
warfi...](https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/publicsector/training-the-warfighter-
on-the-cloud/)
[https://www.govexec.com/sponsor-content/enabling-the-
warfigh...](https://www.govexec.com/sponsor-content/enabling-the-warfighter/)
[https://www.technologyreview.com/2018/10/22/139639/amazon-
is...](https://www.technologyreview.com/2018/10/22/139639/amazon-is-the-
invisible-backbone-behind-ices-immigration-crackdown/)
[https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/27/us/immigrant-children-
sex...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/27/us/immigrant-children-sexual-
abuse.html)
These are the people AWS collaborates with. That's not ethical under any
framework of ethics I've ever heard of.
It's not even like they just happen to serve the military along with all
comers: they voluntarily built a special set of datacenters with racist hiring
policies just to court government work:
[https://aws.amazon.com/govcloud-us/](https://aws.amazon.com/govcloud-us/)
It's almost as if people have a gigantic ethical blind spot just so long as
it's the state doing the mass killings and torture of children.
~~~
xendo
You are basically calling US Military and Government terrorist organizations.
If you start with that assumption you can easily get to the point where no US
company is ethical and you can't work anywhere.
~~~
sneak
Both of your statements seem to be objectively false.
------
mcguire
Is there any irony to be found in the fact that, reading the linked article
([https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/5dm8bx/leaked-amazon-
memo...](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/5dm8bx/leaked-amazon-memo-details-
plan-to-smear-fired-warehouse-organizer-hes-not-smart-or-articulate)), I'm
seeing 4 copies of the ad for the Audible original "Escape from Virtual
Island"?
------
cmurf
It's way past time for an Amazon boycott. This blog post makes the case
without saying the word. But even here on HN there's a long history of
complaints about fraud on Amazon: fake reviews, fake products, and little to
no action by Amazon. And they show they have the power to take corrective
action when something happens they don't actually like, while standing idly by
when they don't care. The actions, and lack thereof, are what matter.
------
tracker1
This is something I deeply respect. To often it feels like proper are trying
to burn the world down from the inside. Such as with some of the struggling
media companies.
And while I won't speak to the two that the author cites as their impetus for
action, I absolutely respect someone who quits over a moral stance, and writes
an exit statement.
Not everyone needs to quit and leave to speak out. There's a lot of gray. If
just prefer to see sane actions and reactions in general.
------
gnicholas
> _What with big-tech salaries and share vestings, this will probably cost me
> over a million (pre-tax) dollars_
...
> _The average pay_ [in his group, AWS] _is very high, and anyone who’s
> unhappy can walk across the street and get another job paying the same or
> better._
Not sure how to square these two statements. Is the lost money all in stock
vesting? If so, why bother mentioning the salary? If not, how does that fit
with his claim about AWSers being so readily employable?
~~~
s1artibartfast
Last I hard, Amazon had a 4 year 5/15/40/40 vesting schedule. In my
experience, stock compensation exceeds salary for most executives. If 50% of
compensation was in stock, they would be walking away from 2.2 years salary
worth of grants, which would have appreciated since the grant date. Amazon
stock is also up >4x in the last 4 years.
~~~
gnicholas
I've heard the same; that would mean that AWS employees in general would stand
to lose a decent amount of equity, depending on where they are in their cycle.
~~~
s1artibartfast
That's the trick. There are new stock grants every year, so you continually
stand to lose a substantial sum by leaving. Hence the name: long term
incentives.
------
alex_young
I really wish there was a stand-alone cloud provider to work with.
AWS is a part of this unethical beast, GCP is a side project of a huge
advertising company, Azure is under the wing of a major monopolist.
I guess there is Linode, but their services are more of a traditional VPS than
a cloud host.
It's kind of crazy that most of the net income of Amazon comes from this
business, but we've accepted that a stand alone cloud business won't work for
some reason.
~~~
praveenperera
DigitalOcean is quickly becoming just that.
~~~
alex_young
Thanks! I hadn't followed up on DO in a while, it looks like their service
offerings are a lot more robust these days.
------
x3blah
[http://web.archive.org/web/20200409045004/https://www.oann.c...](http://web.archive.org/web/20200409045004/https://www.oann.com/tag/david-
zapolsky/)
CNBC interview with Smalls
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15HUGc7R8hw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15HUGc7R8hw)
------
futureproofd
Site is down, here's the image:
[http://archive.md/XcnJv](http://archive.md/XcnJv)
------
tannhaeuser
Looking forward to what tbray is on to next. He has co-authored W3C's original
XML spec and the RFC spec for JSON while at Google. Now leaving AWS on matters
of principle, he could just be the kind of person who can turn things around
and being trusted by enough people to get behind new "digital humanism"
initiatives in a post-cloud era, like cross-cloud computing/service standards,
and digital media/privacy/advertising rights and standards in an increasingly
monopolistic market.
------
uoaei
Big props to Tim Bray. I think I speak for everyone when I say I'm not sure I
would have been able to make the same step if I were in that position. Really
impressed by the fortitude of his psyche and ethical framework. It doesn't
sound like this decision was taken lightly.
------
untog
Perhaps a little off topic but I notice that despite the huge number of
upvotes, this thread is ranked below other stories with far fewer points from
around the same time.
Are people flagging this story? It would be interesting to be able to see the
number of flags a thread attracts on Hacker News.
~~~
yhoiseth
I think I read somewhere that the algorithm de-emphasizes controversial
stories.
------
seph-reed
A site that lists alternatives for Amazon in all of its subcategories:
[https://threshold.us/c/cancelprime/amazon-
alternatives](https://threshold.us/c/cancelprime/amazon-alternatives)
------
softwarejosh
big ass respect for this person, of course its anecdotal, thats all the
evidence you will ever get. you want a professional investigation done on
these guys you are dreaming. this person saw evil, no matter how much, and
took their side.
------
te_chris
Genuinely inspiring. Made me realise how long it's been since someone high up
in tech actually took a stand and a risk and defended their principles
publically. Thank you and know that your actions are meaningful and
appreciated.
------
akerro
Let's not forget to link the FACE of Amazon
[https://sites.google.com/site/thefaceofamazon/](https://sites.google.com/site/thefaceofamazon/)
------
acdha
Kudos to Tim for not being blinded by the money. A whole lot of people are
going to wish they’d had his courage when the history of this era is being
written and our descendants are wondering why more people didn’t act.
------
flyinbryan125
You would think the (ex)VP from amazon could get a decent website together
that is legible on a mobile device... He must have been the one keeping the
archaic layout on the amazon website from the early 2000s.
------
mettamage
So if I get this right, now a VP will be hired that will approve of these
things?
I wonder if there'd have been utility to attempt to change the system from the
inside out.
I guess there wouldn't be. Then this would be the only option left.
~~~
Vinnl
Reading through his post, it doesn't sound like the goal was to change things
- he just didn't want to be co-responsible for them.
That said, it doesn't sound like there was much more he could've done to
change things from the inside-out; and even though it might not be the
intention, this public statement does sound like it might contribute to
changing it anyway.
~~~
bigiain
> Reading through his post, it doesn't sound like the goal was to change
> things
I think he did everything he could think of to change things:
"At that point I snapped. VPs shouldn’t go publicly rogue, so I escalated
through the proper channels and by the book. I’m not at liberty to disclose
those discussions, but I made many of the arguments appearing in this essay. I
think I made them to the appropriate people."
with no result, and no evident likelyhood of positive change.
Which is why he had to quit.
~~~
Vinnl
Yeah that's what I meant: it doesn't sound like the goal was to change things
_by resigning_. Rather, it was admission that since he could not change
things, and he also didn't want to be part of them, the only option was to
resign.
------
moneymoney
[https://techgig1.blogspot.com/2020/05/bye-amazon-tm-
bray.htm...](https://techgig1.blogspot.com/2020/05/bye-amazon-tm-bray.html)
link to original article
------
thruwawy32535
This is one of the most up-voted posts on this site, and the post itself is a
mere 20hrs old. Yet it's been bounced from the front page. The bias of the HN
mods really showing itself today.
------
MrStonedOne
tbray.org does not resolve from within amazon's work vpn.
~~~
pbourke
seriously?
------
lazyjones
Somewhat understandable reaction, but wise? As a VP you should have some
influence at Amazon. Even if not, you'd still do more good by speaking out
about it internally instead of resigning, thereby harming mostly yourself and
apart from HN drama having little effect on the problem. Unless the real
problem is that there is no actual reasonable argument against Amazon's
actions because the danger is exaggerated and all precautions have been taken,
in which case the doubts could have been resolved internally as well... But,
his money, his consciousness, his emotions, his decision.
~~~
braythwayt
You make good point, but it can be extraordinarily difficult to change a
company's toxic management culture from the inside. You speak out, you lead by
example, you ask tough questions...
Then you start getting bad reviews. Colleagues speak of you as being
"difficult." You are passed over for involvement in important initiatives.
You quit in disgust, but now they leak that you are a poor performer who is no
longer relevant, and your speaking out about worker conditions is just a poor
performer trying to distract everyone from their inability to get things done.
It is very, very difficult to win some battles from the inside. Toxic cultures
are ruthless when defending themselves from change.
Ask any woman about challenging inappropriate sexual behaviour. I believe
we'll hear the same thing.
~~~
lazyjones
> You quit in disgust, but now they leak that you are a poor performer who is
> no longer relevant, and your speaking out about worker conditions is just a
> poor performer trying to distract everyone from their inability to get
> things done.
I'm not sure this is worse than quitting in disgust and then publishing drama
and negative opinions about your past employer. At least the poor performance
claim can be countered with actual past reviews.
> It is very, very difficult to win some battles from the inside
It's even more difficult if you don't even try and when everyone who wants to
and could do it just leaves.
~~~
AlexandrB
I suspect Tim has a pretty good understanding of his ability to influence
Amazon's corporate culture:
> At that point I snapped. VPs shouldn’t go publicly rogue, so I escalated
> through the proper channels and by the book. I’m not at liberty to disclose
> those discussions, but I made many of the arguments appearing in this essay.
> I think I made them to the appropriate people.
And it seems that failed. What's left to do at that point? You can "sabotage"
\- in the sense of refusing to do your job. You can participate in a system
you think is heading in the wrong direction (and with the knowledge you can't
really change it). Or you can quit.
------
paulintrognon
cached:
[https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:wi2hPn...](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:wi2hPnTXhhoJ:https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/202x/2020/04/29/Leaving-
Amazon+&cd=1&hl=fr&ct=clnk&gl=fr&client=firefox-b-d)
------
flavmartins
While I don’t disagree with the decision to step down from the organization,
I’m always concerned that in the long run, if committed, principled
individuals just leave the organization, who will be left to stand up for
those who don’t have that option.
The Amazon warehouse workers certainly don’t have the power in the
organization. And they don’t have the representation at the highest management
levels of the organization. So if the ones that do in the VP and Director
roles leave, who will standup for them?
------
synecdoche
How does resigning better serve the cause than conscientious refusal to take
part in despisable activities and get fired instead?
~~~
lazugod
He wasn’t directly involved with the response to the whistleblowers, people
higher up at Amazon were (it sounds like he wasn’t VP of the entire company
but of the web services section specifically).
~~~
icebraining
Not of all the web services. Amazon has a lot of VPs.
------
shaan1
Made money, now is the ideal time to quit :-) Similar to the google engineers
who quit after working for 10 to 15 years.
------
pleddy
[https://youtu.be/Y666duJMDnQ](https://youtu.be/Y666duJMDnQ)
------
jzer0cool
> That done, remaining an Amazon VP would have meant, in effect, signing off
> on actions I despised. So I resigned.
You are courageous and have taken tremendous sacrifice. Although it is not
much a condolence, it makes me happy to hear there are people to stand their
ground for well being of others. I do not know the whole situation, but, I can
hear it was against your own moral / core values. And I feel you are a great
leader for what I believe, you are protecting, those around you. And your
leaders have failed which resulted in this outcome.
I wonder how many people have been in similar situation and decided to leave a
job (or an excuse, for one). Reminds me of Nasa's launch when there were
safety concerns (e.g. "On January 28, 1986, as the Space Shuttle Challenger
broke up over the Atlantic Ocean 73 seconds into its flight, Allan McDonald
looked on in shock -- despite the fact that the night before, he had refused
to sign the launch recommendation over safety concern ..." ) -- as well other
situations which may rise from privacy concerns, security concerns, etc, and
with pushbacks with "Do you have proof? Have data to support? Is it
reproducible? ...). Today, I wonder with COVID-19 if there are pressures to
release Test Kits / vaccines to market before it is ready or skipping of any
processes necessarily as another example.
------
jbj
looks like it hit the mainstream media:
[https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/04/business/amazon-tim-
bray-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/04/business/amazon-tim-bray-
resigns.html)
------
telaelit
Finally someone who actually cares about his workers. I wish more higher ups
cared this much about us
------
myroon5
"From: James Gosling (May 04 2020, at 10:36)
Great letter. I struggle with the contradictions every day."
------
mcantelon
Reports of shitty working conditions aren't exactly a new thing in Amazon
warehouses.
------
bawana
Is amazon evil because it's big or because they compete with more evil abroad?
------
cek
tbray.org has been /.'d (is that still a thing?).
Either that, or the strongly worded anti-defamation language found in Amazon's
employment agreement has come into play, forcing it to be shutdown.
------
gigatexal
Mad respect for this guy.
------
lorec0re
You're a good human!
------
elwell
Site fails to load. Hosted by AWS? _puts on tin foil hat_
------
arkanciscan
I don't see how quitting helps the workers he claims to care about. Many of
them would probably love to have the amount of influence that a VP has. Seems
disingenuous to claim that as a reason for quitting.
------
wtmt
I appreciate the candid statement he has made about one of the things that
ails Amazon's leadership.
> Only that’s not just Amazon, it’s how 21st-century capitalism is done.
I wonder if there's any future opportunity for him in the existing set of well
known names or large enough companies. I can't think of any widely known tech
company that doesn't do "21st-century capitalism" (treating people as
disposable cogs). Seems like getting into some non-profit that also has a
decent track record may be the way to go for him.
~~~
bantunes
I hear he's 64, so this might not be a big deal for him going forward.
~~~
acdha
I'm with OP on the non-profit route: if you're a relatively healthy retiree
who's concerned about the future your children are going to live in (a
recurring theme of his blog posts) there are a lot of activist organizations
which can use serious talent which they can't pay market rates for and he'd
have the luxury of picking the one whose views most closely align.
------
alexashka
'Poor people are being treated poorly, I'm rich and can get a job by walking
across the street. Capitalism is bad blah blah blah.'
Quality content.
People born with a silver spoon in their mouth are so predictably 'shocked' by
how the rest of the world functions. People are mistreated? People are fired?
There is injustice in the world? Oh my, I'm going to blog about it!
Have you heard of Buddha? You're in that stage of discovering old age,
sickness and death by wandering outside your golden palace walls out into the
streets.
------
techntoke
Will Jeff Barr do the right thing too?
------
sbussard
> Only that’s not just Amazon, it’s how 21st-century capitalism is done
This type of business practice is a big threat to capitalism. Bottom-line
thinking is over-optimization w.r.t. to revenue that doesn’t even consider
those who generate the revenue. It’s a local maximum that makes crummy
business people look smarter than they are. Conscientious capitalism is not a
socialist concept, it’s a human concept. If the leaders have no empathy,
people will leave, revenue will go down.
------
throwawayfortb
Tim is a really nice and likable person. That said, I'm really disappointed in
his one sided take here. Amazon did not fire these people without cause. They
fired them because they violated company policies. These employees were using
company time and resources to push personal political agendas that have no
place at work. They were rightfully fired, and a huge number of Amazon
employees are thankful they are gone. There is a big silent majority, probably
at all major tech companies, that is left voiceless because the progressive
left is vocal and aggressively shouts down anyone who is even slightly to the
right of their own views. At Amazon, most of us seek a professional workplace
where employees are working towards the common goal of helping customers.
These employees that Tim is standing up for were the opposite of that,
distracting everyone with loud activism and probably not focusing on their own
jobs either.
To provide a counter to Tim's account: Chris Smalls was told to quarantine
himself and not come to the work site because he was in close contact with
someone who tested positive for COVID-19
([https://thehill.com/regulation/labor/490805-fired-amazon-
str...](https://thehill.com/regulation/labor/490805-fired-amazon-striker-
demands-bezos-protect-workers-in-open-letter)). He came to the site anyways to
protest. Why wouldn't he get fired for putting others at risk? People who
think this firing was malicious are speculating. If this was a topic that
Hacker News readers had a different group perspective on, they would call it a
conspiracy theory. Someone would surely be quoting Hanlon's Razor by now.
Maren Costa and Emily Cunningham were the most visible ringleaders of
activists pretending to be employees. They clearly were not doing their job as
well as they could, because they had time enough to engage in lengthy
political discussions on mailing lists during the workday. They were also
repeatedly disrupting everyone else's work. They, and others from their group,
would spam hundreds of company mailing lists repeatedly. They would send long
political rants, links to activist events, and even solicit employee
information. It was very over the top, and pleas from list moderators to stop
spamming were ignored or met with baseless accusations of racism (or another
-ism). That reaction, to shout down opposing views with absurd justifications,
is the mental gymnastics of intersectionality at work. It's the unfortunate
culture of intolerance that this aggressive flavor of progressive activism has
taken on in workplaces like Google, Facebook, and Amazon.
I'm also dismayed at the public reaction to these events. For some reason, the
general public simply craves stories attacking winners, and the same is true
for Amazon. If you want to balance out the info you've been exposed to, check
out Amazon's official blog on the large number of changes they've made in
response to COVID-19, at [https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/amazons-
actions-to...](https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/amazons-actions-to-
help-employees-communities-and-customers-affected-by-covid-19). Were you aware
that Amazon set up a nonprofit COVID-19 supply store for healthcare and
government organizations ([https://business.amazon.com/en/work-with-
us/healthcare/covid...](https://business.amazon.com/en/work-with-
us/healthcare/covid-19-supplies))? What about Jeff Bezos's statement on the
expenses relating to COVID-19 ([https://www.marketwatch.com/story/amazons-ceo-
tells-investor...](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/amazons-ceo-tells-
investors-if-youre-shareowner-you-may-want-to-take-a-seat-as-he-explains-why-
the-company-will-spend-entirety-of-4-billion-profit-2020-04-30))?
Tim Bray quitting is his personal choice. I respect that he has the right to
make this choice. But he's not a hero, and the HN crowd would do well not to
immediately put him on a pedestal or to take all his opinions and claims at
face value. When it comes to those fired employees he is standing up for, Tim
is willfully overlooking their clear abuse of Amazon's employee rules, company
resources, and other employees. I don't think it's an accident that he's
leaving all those details out. He may be calling Amazon a 'chickenshit', but I
actually think he's the coward in this instance.
~~~
khawkins
Dragging the company into a slew of political activism creates a toxic work
environment. When people take up the mantle of speaking for all of the
employees when they, in fact, don't, they end up silencing and intimidating
people who disagree with them because they want to get along with their
coworkers.
If you think climate change is a ticking time-bomb and needs drastic action,
great, go to a climate rally in your free time and protest for more
environmental laws. Some of your coworkers disagree with you, they just don't
say anything because they want a good working relationship with you.
------
Havoc
>humans in the warehouses as fungible units of pick-and-pack potential. Only
that’s not just Amazon, it’s how 21st-century capitalism is done.
That's the part that scares me - it's not just Amazon. Automation hasn't even
kicked off properly and we've already got humans being replaceable at best
~~~
fastball
I'm not sure what else you can expect in a world where jobs that require
effectively 0 skill exist.
I'd prefer the "full automation" route, as I think it would be better for
humans to not need to perform these jobs. But until then, isn't it a good
thing that jobs which require no skills exist? Since there seem to be many
people with little-to-no skills?
~~~
Havoc
>I think it would be better for humans to not need to perform these jobs.
Depends on how this plays out. Either some sort of UBI future...or potentially
dramatically increased inequality and much suffering by a big chunk of
humanity that can no longer economically compete at all. Could go either way I
think.
------
apexkid
Amazon is every other on fire in media for poor working conditions but they
don't care because stock buyers of Amazon don't care. They will continue to
invest as long as their wealth grows. This is what true capitalism is.
------
tom_mellior
> Fast-forward to the Covid-19 era. Stories surfaced of unrest in Amazon
> warehouses, workers raising alarms about being uninformed, unprotected, and
> frightened. Official statements claimed every possible safety precaution was
> being taken. Then a worker organizing for better safety conditions was
> fired, and brutally insensitive remarks appeared in leaked executive meeting
> notes where the focus was on defending Amazon “talking points”.
Sorry, but none of this is new in "the Covid-19 era". There is a long
Wikipedia page dedicated to criticism of Amazon detailing _decades_ of
criticism of how Amazon treats its workers:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Amazon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Amazon)
Better of Tim to exit late than never, but let's not pretend that until recent
firings and this blog post we all thought that Amazon was a nice and cuddly
company.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Bray](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Bray)
says he started there in December 2014. He must have known at that point what
he was getting into. For reference, here's the state of the criticism page at
that time:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Criticism_of_Amaz...](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Criticism_of_Amazon&oldid=634843846)
~~~
SeeTheTruth
The fear of death due to infection by a pandemic is new. The need for PPE and
lack thereof is new. Firing whitleblowers in the face of a pandemic and
meeting to smear them (with public proof thanks to a leak) is new.
We didn't think Amazon was nice and cuddly - but this is a good point for Tim
to exit.
Jumping on someone doing a principled thing at personal cost for "not doing it
sooner" is so cynical. I think we can criticize Amazon's long history of being
repressive without shaming someone who publicly did the right thing.
~~~
lidHanteyk
Sure, but at the same time, it is our civic responsibility as skilled
programmers to deliberately starve Amazon of the labor needed to build their
oppressive systems. It is not wrong to remind ourselves of that greater
responsibility, especially in the context of Amazon being vulnerable to
organized labor action today.
------
rdsubhas
> At the end of the day, it’s all about power balances. The warehouse workers
> are weak and getting weaker
More and more victims of trickle down economics.
------
darksaints
Just want to point out this:
>Amazon Web Services (the “Cloud Computing” arm of the company), where I
worked, is a different story. It treats its workers humanely, strives for
work/life balance, struggles to move the diversity needle (and mostly fails,
but so does everyone else), and is by and large an ethical organization. I
genuinely admire its leadership.
Having worked there, I 100% agree with this statement. I'd go so far as to say
that the blame for this toxic and intolerable atmosphere lies with a single
person who is not Jeff Bezos. His name is Dave Clark.
When I was in his org, I regularly interacted with FC General Managers, Ops
Managers, and Area Managers. There was a humorous nickname that quite a few
called him behind his back, and I think it fits him perfectly. It was Dave
Mussolini. Not so much a nazi in his evil, but rather someone who desired and
cultivated and enforced a pure cult of personality for his own personal ego
gratification and career advancement. Amazon's "Disagree And Commit"
leadership principle gets thrown out in his org and becomes "Disagree amongst
yourselves if you want, but _never ever_ disagree with me, never do anything
that I do not approve of, and kiss my ass any time you are around me".
Subsequently, all of his subordinates adopt the same attitude, and becomes a
culture of complete subservience to your master, no questions asked.
I have personally witnessed people get fired within 10 minutes of sending out
an email making a suggested path that Dave Clark had already decided. The
email came out, Dave Clark walked into his managers office with an HR rep, and
literally within 10 minutes they were packing their things and saying goodbye.
I have been in an elevator which opened up to him and his EA, and instead of
getting in and going to his floor, he told us we needed to step out of the
elevator and get a different elevator because he needed to talk
confidentially. He couldn't wait to get to his office, he had to make one of
his lemmings take the long way to accommodate 10 seconds of his time.
The Kiva acquisition was something he pushed for extensively. They weren't
even Kiva customers at the time, he just jumped the gun and bought the
company. It turned out that Kiva's productivity improvements didn't scale very
well at Amazon's level. They really worked well for much smaller companies,
but in large FCs, their optimization and routing algorithms hit NP Complete
complexity bottlenecks, resulting in much lower productivity than had been
advertised to them. But instead of taking the blame for his lack of due
diligence, he created a hellfire and damnation environment, regularly storming
into their offices and throwing Steve Jobs level temper tantrums. He made the
entire place so toxic that half (not exaggerating) of the Kiva engineers that
were acquired had left the company before their very lucrative aquisition
stock grants could vest. We're talking hundreds of engineers who would rather
give up hundreds of thousands of dollars than deal with Dave Clark (Mussolini)
for one more minute.
Dave Clark is a toxic asset. He is failing at his job. Fulfillment costs are
skyrocketing, inventory turns are tanking, and profitability of the retail
division is at an all time low, despite all time high revenues. He has burned
through staffing so heavily that they have had to abandon entire fulfillment
centers because there aren't enough people in these small blue collar towns
that are eligible to work for Amazon anymore _because they 've all been
fired_. He is a constant PR nightmare for the company. I have no fucking clue
why Jeff Bezos hasn't fired him yet.
~~~
amai
An article about this guy collected some interesting comments on HN:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21818233](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21818233)
~~~
darksaints
Wow, I have never seen this article. I wouldn't be surprised if he was the one
who pushed for this article to be written.
~~~
QuinnyPig
Not super relevant to this thread, but you came up in conversation today:
[https://twitter.com/shortjared/status/1257863398433468416?s=...](https://twitter.com/shortjared/status/1257863398433468416?s=21)
~~~
darksaints
That's extremely embarrassing. I would like to apologize, but I do not have a
twitter account.
FWIW (not much, there isn't an excuse), I was going through an extremely rough
time in my life. I had recently been disowned by my family for leaving their
religion, and I had just begun to work for the guy I was talking about in this
thread. I was generally a miserable prick back then, and while I can't say
that I have eliminated that tendency entirely, it is something I have been
consciously working on with the help of a therapist for about 4 years now.
------
dilandau
I am surprised to see a high-profile software engineer take this step. It
seems from the post that his motivation was mostly in protest to the company's
efforts to shut-down any form of worker organization.
It's these strange ways that COVID is changing our economy that make me very
bearish long-term on the economy. Businesses around here can reopen legally
but many are choosing to stay closed. The customers aren't back yet and they
can't pay their regular staff. If they reopen, the staff can also no longer
collect the massive unemployment benefits.
It's a fucking shitstorm and it's hitting the highly-paid as well, I guess.
Good luck to OP.
------
asdf21
It's crazy how stuff like this keeps coming out, but Amazon's stock just keeps
going up..
~~~
hobofan
It's almost like people with morals and people investing in Amazon are two
completely separate groups.
------
alkibiades
if he’s so against capitalism he should donate his considerable net worth to
amazon workers instead of pointless virtue signaling.
but somehow think that won’t happen :)
~~~
blueline
having money means you aren't allowed to critique capitalism? what kind of
logic is that?
~~~
alkibiades
if you made your money off the thing you’re criticizing seems a tad
hypocritical. he should try socialism and redistribute his wealth
------
_pmf_
Impressive.
------
TheOtherHobbes
[Applause!]
------
simonhfrost
> It’s that Amazon treats the humans in the warehouses as fungible units of
> pick-and-pack potential. Only that’s not just Amazon, it’s how 21st-century
> capitalism is done.
Stung me the most. Capitalism seems to have such an increasingly firm grip on
the world that I'm starting to think the only way out is from some drastic
worldwide event (Corona?).
~~~
asah
21st century? 20th century? 19th?
Seems to me, this is the story of the industrial revolution and arguably all
civilization pre-IR, when serfs were fungible labor units to the landed
gentry. Standardize the design and production of something, then bring in
labor to produce mass quantities to a certain level of quality.
Coronavirus won't change this: with 8B people on the planet, we've come to
depend on industrial production for food, medicine and more.
~~~
bigiain
> 21st century? 20th century? 19th?
Does it matter? We can't change the 19th or 20th centuries. Perhaps we can
change the 21st...
------
dandare
> Only that’s not just Amazon, it’s how 21st-century capitalism is done.
I am really tired of all these off-hand attacks on capitalism. Capitalism is
an economic system. It is characterized by private ownership of the means of
production and their operation for profit. If you prefer a centralized or
shared economy, that is fine, although I was born in a communist country and I
bet you have no idea what you wish for.
Capitalism is not responsible for some local injustice, corruption, or
mistreatment of workers. If you think there is no corruption in a dictatorship
or that communism is a worker paradise you are grossly misinformed. Europe
runs on capitalism too, but Europe also has strong worker protections and
ethical norms.
~~~
unreal37
Also, there's an argument to be made that America is not actually truly
capitalist.
The government intervenes in the market all the time, especially now. Nothing
big is allowed to fail. $Trillions to keep the party going.
That's not capitalism.
Even Buffett is sitting this "recovery" out because he can see the lack of a
free market.
~~~
JoeAltmaier
"No True Scotsman"
~~~
dandare
That is not how you use the No True Scotsman fallacy. US is not the world
economy, US economy is not defining characteristics of capitalism.
------
gowld
Is he donating all the excess money Amazon paid him to the workers or unions?
~~~
afshin
Would publicizing such a donation help him or would you then want to know why
he published the details of his donation?
Your question is one where both possible outcomes result in attacking the
messenger instead of considering his message.
------
pleddy
I worked there in 2004. Fired for insubordination. My team was harassed by the
VP of QA, he was soon also fired, just to prove that I was indeed onto
something in my whistleblowing. Larry something, can't remember. One of those
super two-faced goofballs.
Amazon culture then? It was sad. Workers are pawns. The dreams of the Internet
startup culture dashed and dying. I was on the team w the first Infosys flood.
Amazon is a place to make money. That's it. It's a strict military hierarchy
like all US corporations. No real culture of betterment for humanity. Quite
the opposite. Yes, those that got and kept their options possibly doing very
well. Yes, if tech is what you live for, yippee! A better future for all of
humanity: strong "no!". Stormtroopers and low flying helicoptors for any that
dare organize.
Didn't you see the HR video where a plastic Jeff spews all the corporate lies
and BS? Made me sick back when. I was an idealist. You were probably spared
the worst and protected, given the humanist version on the surface.
There's a culture of trying to get rid of people after a few years. Not many
make it over the 3-5 years mark, right? Policy of "fire the bottom 10%" thing
every year, so trump up some lies to have excuses.
Anyways, better you got out before the rot set into your heart. No idealists
there. The top guy is obviously quite extraordinary. Thanks for making a
statement. Maybe something will break one day.
Whistleblowing needs to be kept alive. It's our only hope.
------
herostratus101
Good for Amazon for not caving to activist pressure. Google's past
fecklessness in this domain has come to haunt it.
------
sumfoni
I don't get it.
What does he win doing that? One publicity stunt. Thats it
He could have done much more inside Amazon and get fired later.
------
jeffrallen
Come on, Tim. You lost me at, "cost me a million dollars".
Congrats that you did the right thing, but no one should care how much it cost
you to be ethical.
~~~
btown
> no one should care how much it cost you to be ethical
Well, sure, no one _should_ care, but from a purely pragmatic perspective,
privileged people tend to hold in higher regard the actions of other
privileged people. Sad, but it's how systematized injustice self-sustains. And
if Tim including that detail makes even one other highly compensated
executive, somewhere in the world, treat with just a tiny bit more respect the
concept of walking away from golden handcuffs to push for ethical change...
it's worth Tim treating that detail with gravitas.
------
dirtydroog
> The victims weren’t abstract entities but real people; here are some of
> their names: CB, GB, MC, EC, BM, and CS.
> I’m sure it’s a coincidence that every one of them is a person of color, a
> woman, or both. Right?
I hope this guy got permission from these people to post their names on a
public forum. Also, there's really nothing in those names to tell if someone
is a PoC or not. At least one of those names is both a male and female name.
------
emilfihlman
>I’m sure it’s a coincidence that every one of them is a person of color, a
woman, or both. Right?
And at that point the author lost my respect. Sad, since otherwise he's making
good points with a lot of merit, but if he's making that "argument" I don't
even want to know what more vocal "activists" were saying.
This comes down purely to cost and slow moving rock on the Amazon side.
~~~
eplanit
I stopped at the mention of Naomi Klein.
------
dcgudeman
How many "Amazon VP"s are there, 1000? Whenever I see stories like this the
majority of the time the position of the individual is embellished to make the
act seem more dramatic.
~~~
jrockway
"Distinguished Engineer" is kind of a big deal, title-wise. It's not something
that is just handed out.
~~~
new2628
As Napoleon said, a soldier will fight long and hard for a piece of colored
ribbon.
~~~
sgt
And yet, some soldiers will let it go again in order to maintain their honor.
------
rosywoozlechan
If conscientious people leave Amazon it will result in Amazon being less
conscientious, but it will probably not result in Amazon being any less
powerful or dominant.
I also think Amazon a right to expect its employees to abide by its rules.
Individuals have a right to organize and to protest, even when they're
supposed to be at work, but companies have a right to want to discontinue
their business relationship, that is fire, their employees, especially if
they're not working when they're supposed to.
Ultimately the employees made the mistake of organizing and being loud before
they had the critical mass to have the leverage needed, and they outed their
organization leadership.
~~~
behringer
AFAIK in the US it's illegal to fire somebody due to union organizing.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_busting#United_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_busting#United_States)
Therefore, the employees made no mistake if Amazon breaks the law by firing
unionizing employees.
~~~
rosywoozlechan
I am not convinced that the protests were attempts to unionize or that the law
is clear that on if these firings at Amazon were illegal.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Marissa Mayer is making Yahoo more, not less, bloated. Here's why - Libertatea
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-05/29/yahoo-expansion-explained
======
gotorazor
Different headline between the UK and the US version of the same article.
------
fakeer
It seems after the initial collective euphoria the good karma is subsiding and
people are are actually experiencing how the new Flickr page takes a month to
load or so.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Faking your resume to acquire projects - s3arch
It has been two months joining a company as a fresher. I was pulled into the project within a month. I am comfortable working as a shadow for the project. Recently I as well as others with 1-2 years of experience were asked to prepare a resume which is to be sent to clients for acquiring few projects. Even though it has been just 2 months, I was asked to showcase myself as a developer of 2 years of experience. I promptly said I cannot do that. They accepted it, but then submitted my resume to the client not only as a developer of 2 years of experience but also with fake projects that I had never worked on. They told me this is how other companies also work and there is nothing wrong in "pumping up" the resume. I again went to the HR and said I can't be a part of this process, as my conscience does not allow me to do that. They were polite and accepted my reasons. But I could see that they are really not happy with what I did. I have just started my career and not sure what will be the consequence of my decision. I am willing to lose this job instead of faking my resume.<p>Did anyone has been in this situation? How things went by when you refused to do such kind of unethical activities? Did you get punished indirectly? Is it a common practice in all companies?
======
ciguy
I'm guessing you're in India? This is such common practice that as a CTO I've
been forced to blanket ban working with Indian firms. This is one of the least
dishonest things they do, some of the other stuff I could tell stories about
is far worse.
You're doing the right thing, but that doesn't mean you won't be punished for
it in the short term. Hopefully someone recognizes your integrity in the long
term and you are rewarded accordingly but there are no guarantees.
~~~
cik
Same deal. My personal favourite is always the difference between the actual
technical interview passer, and individual doing the work. I know of many
companies that blanket ban India, Ukraine, and Belarus because of this.
~~~
notus
What is it about these countries that makes people that way? There are plenty
of other poor countries where this doesn't happen as much. What about India,
Ukraine, and Belarus makes people think it is okay to be dishonest?
~~~
Waterluvian
My guess is a history of scarcity of resources. When there literally isn't
enough to go around, you'll cut in line, lie, cheat, defraud to get ahead.
I remember someone from Brazil once telling me that if you get swindled,
society looks at you as a sucker who clearly deserved it, not at the swindler
as a bad person.
~~~
ciguy
This isn't quite right, since there are many poor or poorer countries where
this isn't the case. However it does seem more common in poor developing
countries so I don't doubt it's a contributing factor.
~~~
SamReidHughes
It might be partly the other direction, too.
------
gbtw
I heard it happens sometimes with intermediates for contractors too. A
contractor friend gave the following advice.
Take a copy of your resume with you, the real one and go to your first meeting
alone. Get them to talk about their stuff before handling your cv, act
interested ask follow up questions and push on it. Then when it comes to your
CV act surprised when they talk about stuff you didn't do. Tell them you have
your cv as given to the intermediary and compare notes. Tell them you are
disappointed with wasting their time but that the job looked really
interesting. Most times the company is happy to find out their intermediary is
shit and sometimes offers to take you on on trail basis.
------
markbnj
You already know it's wrong, as evidenced by your post. I'm not going to be
the one to tell you to quit, because I don't know where you work, or who you
work for, or how easy it would be for you to replace the check, how many
mouths you have to feed, etc. It's enough that you get why its the wrong thing
to do. If you had to keep taking pay from this company for awhile I don't
think anyone would blame you.
------
i_am_proteus
In some industries this is such common practice that it's expected, and
requirements are upscaled to account for it.
To the point where my organization issued a RFP asking for "engineers with 15+
years of experience" in something that did not exist five years prior. I asked
the obvious question and was told "that's the only way we'll get anyone
competent."
I left that job.
------
wooshy
This happened to me when I worked at TCS right out of college. I did the same
thing as you and brought my case to HR and they didn't seem to care. When the
client interviewed me I was very open about my actual skills and told them
when something was just not true when they'd reference a lie on my resume that
the company fabricated. Nothing negative ever happened to me during my
employment there but I immediately started looking for another job.
~~~
drewbitt
Interesting. Is that TCS in India, US, or elsewhere? I am still there in the
US, also directly out of college, and hadn't heard of that happening here.
------
robbyoconnor
Can Indian companies actually just hire competent devs rather than trying to
push their devs to misrepresent their experience level, please?
It's really doing a disservice to Indians who are actually competent and
giving companies that employ Indians a bad name...it's not good.
~~~
ciguy
Part of the issue may be brain drain. Really smart hard working ethical
developers often leave India.
~~~
robbyoconnor
I don't blame them
------
ChuckMcM
It demonstrates a company with a lack of integrity. In my experience such
companies end up losing and their poor ethics smear the reputation of people
that worked there. It sounds like you have a choice to make.
------
rrauenza
You might also wish to post (anonymously) to
[https://workplace.stackexchange.com/](https://workplace.stackexchange.com/)
~~~
s3arch
Thanks for referring. Will post there too.
~~~
rrauenza
I think this is it? [https://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/137096/my-
empl...](https://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/137096/my-employer-
faked-my-resume-to-acquire-projects)
~~~
s3arch
Yes :)
------
surds
I have been there, even when I was not in India then and not a 'fresher' as
well.
I had just completed my Masters program from a well known university and was
in the job hunt phase. I was contacted my multiple 'consultancies' that
offered to tailor my resume to the needs of 'prestigious' clients and get me
the position.
They were planning to show 7 years of work experience - I was just over 5
years out of my undergrad - which included actual 4+ years of experience, a
nice break and then a 1 years Masters program.
I could not fathom how they would fake my resume to show the 7 years
experience, but they were very confident about it. I was amused at the
practice.
I was at the risk of having to leave the country if I could not secure a job
over the coming months, and would have student loans to deal with as well.
Despite this, I could not digest the idea of having a fake resume that I will
have to carry for my entire professional life.
IMO - Do not do this if your moral compass does not allow it. You will be
better off in the long run. (:fingers-crossed)
BTW, I am Indian and was in Bay Area when this happened (2014) and the
'consultancy' was also local.
~~~
s3arch
Thank you for sharing your experience.
------
narag
They did that to me at least once. I found out when the customer asked me for
some certification. It was infuriating, because I was the only one not lying:
the customer wanted to present me to their clients as their employee, when I
was actually a subcontractor, so they didn't even complain to my bosses.
I don't know what I would do in your position. I have almost 25 years of
experience and won't lie ever. If I can't get some job, I'd look for another
one worse paid.
------
femto113
Quit and look for a more honest company. The kind of company that would lie in
this way to get business is the same kind of company that would lie to you
about their financial situation or throw you under the bus and lie to a client
about your role in some problem. Plus if their behavior eventually does catch
up with them you won't want to put the time you do spend there on your real
resume, so better to cut your losses now than waste a couple years.
------
bibinou
Your story feels very similar to this thread on reddit
[https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/axqkcq/i...](https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/axqkcq/i_was_recently_hired_by_zytech_a_consulting/)
Maybe you can find some answers there ?
------
bitwize
The company you joined -- it's BrighterBrain, isn't it? This is not common
practice in the USA or Europe, but BrighterBrain (f.k.a. Unbounded Solutions)
is one of the few outfits scummy enough to try to get away with it. Ditch
those scumbags at your first opportunity. Even if it's not BrighterBrain,
you're working for scum.
------
teddyuk
Find somewhere else to work
------
jdboyd
If they do it anyway, you probably can't reasonably stop them short of
quitting. Quitting likely would be best, but maybe you can't afford to right
now.
If it comes up while talking with a client, I would just tell the truth about
the specific part they are asking about and mention that there must be an
error in the document they were given. That is what I've done when I found
that recruiters added lies to my resume in the past. I don't think anyone ever
held it against me. I take my own copies of my resume with me, but I'm not
sure if that applies in your situation.
------
imafish
I was asked to use very exaggerating adjectives about my abilities on a
resume, mainly because I would be able to gain those abilities fairly easy and
the “customer” was more focused on buzz words and years of experience than
real talent.
It was a large public tender, we were a big team (of mainly unexperienced
engineers), we won it and we did a really good job.
It was probably unfair competition to lie on the resume - but I think my
employer knew better what they needed, than they did themselves, so we gamed
the tender.
~~~
baal80spam
I don't understand that "you were asked to" do it. Who asked you?
~~~
imafish
My employer at the time - a large international consulting agency. We were
given a list of technologies that we were required to mention on our resumes
with the instruction “If you have heard about it, you are experienced, if you
have worked with it you are either very experienced or an expert”. It did feel
wrong writing that resume but tbh I do not think we were overselling our
abilities much - only the experience part.
------
vfulco2
There's a real disconnect in some cultures between what they say and do.
Instead of fostering long term mutually beneficial relationships (as they say
they are focused on), it is all about screwing the opponent. There is no shame
in doing it. The only shame is in being caught. It's easy to see what holds
back certain economic systems with such malfeasance.
------
tsherr
Well, in a the same field (IT) it is common for companies to sell computers
with pirated Windows, used parts as new, etc. In the small town I live in,
know of five companies (two out of business) where this is common practice. I
t think it's IT people taking advantage of non-IT people.
------
throwaway13000
Good job. Don't worry too much. There will be no consequences for you in the
long run. Honesty also makes you stronger. You will just find a employer who
will do things honestly. But do read algorithms and coding questions
thoroughly.
~~~
s3arch
Thank you. Thanks for emphasizing on learning algorithms and coding questions.
------
badpun
> again went to the HR and said I can't be a part of this process, as my
> conscience does not allow me to do that.
Technically, you were not a part of this - some salespeople lied to the client
and your company got the contract. You did not partake in this. If you want to
only work on contracts that were won 100% ehtically, you probably should open
your own company, as, from what I've seen, you won't find much companies (in
the "generic software development" market) doing that. Or, more realistically,
work for a company that writes software for its own use and not for clients.
------
dominotw
> Is it a common practice in all companies?
quite common in indian firms.
I've never seen this outside indian consultancies/bodyshops. But I don't know
for sure.
------
aakilfernandes
Ive consulted for a few years in the US, never had this happen to me or heard
it happening to fellow consultants.
------
magic_beans
Honestly, who cares? You're not hurting anyone. Unless you feel you won't be
paid appropriately, this isn't illegal or even THAT unethical. If anything,
you'll learn something new and come out of this with some really good
knowledge.
But if you really want to quit over this: listen to your instinct. I wouldn't,
but that's me.
~~~
DanBC
> this isn't illegal
It's literally fraud.
~~~
JudgeWapner
it's a lie/deceit, but I'm not convinced it's fraud. fraud is:
> intentional misrepresentation of material existing fact made by one person
> to another with knowledge of its falsity and for the purpose of inducing the
> other person to act, and upon which the other person relies with resulting
> injury or damage.
Everything is fine until "resulting injury or damage". You'd have trouble
proving that a guy who falsely said he wrote parallel FizzBuzz with REST API
on a 500-client kubernetes rack caused you any harm.
~~~
DanBC
> upon which the other person relies with resulting injury or damage
If he gets a job the wages are damage to the employer.
If he gets an interview the time spent interviewing is damage to the employer.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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Zarabianie przez internet - siloam85
http://zarabianie.info.pl/
======
dozzie
Could you go promoting your ads platform somewhere else?
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