thegoodfellas/blogset-br huggingface dataset:
the more I realized that you could get more onto film than just one train of thought My mind works that way, anyway. We tend to work on different levels. So I was seeing a lot of those levels in the footage. But technically, I didn't know how to do what my mind was telling me could be done.PLAYBOY: What did you feel could be done?DYLAN: Well, well, now, film is a series of actions and reactions, you know. And it's trickery. You're playing with illusion. What seems to be a simple affair is actually quite contrived. And the stronger your point of view is, the stronger your film will be.PLAYBOY: Would you elaborate?DYLAN: You're trying to get a message through. So there are many ways to deliver that message. Let's say you have a message: "White is white." Bergman would say, "White is white" in the space of an hour-or what seems to be an hour. Bunuel might say, "White is black, and black is white, but white is really white." And it's all really the same message.PLAYBOY: And how would Dylan say it?DYLAN: Dylan would probably not even say it. [Laughs] He would-he'd assume you'd know that. [Laughs]PLAYBOY: You wriggled out of that one.DYLAN: I'd say people will always believe in something if they feel it to be true. Just knowing it's true is not enough. If you feel in your gut that it's true, well, then, you can be pretty much assured that it's true.PLAYBOY: So that a film made by someone who feels in his guts that white is white will give the feeling to the audience that white is white without having to say it.DYLAN: Yes. Exactly.PLAYBOY: Let's talk about the message of Renaldo & Clara. It appears to us to be a personal yet fictional film in which you, Joan Baez and your former wife, Sara, play leading roles. You play Renaldo, Baez plays a "woman in white" and Sara plays Clara. There is also a character in the film called Bob Dylan played by someone else. It is composed of footage from your Rolling Thunder Revue tour and fictional scenes performed by all of you as actors. Would you tell us basically what the movie's about?DYLAN: It's about the essence of man being alienated from himself and how, in order to free himself, to be reborn, he has to go outside himself. You can almost say that he dies in order to look at time and by strength of will can return to the same body.PLAYBOY: He can return by strength of will to the same body . . . and to Clara?DYLAN: Clara represents to Renaldo everything in the material world he's ever wanted. Renaldo's needs are few. He doesn't know it, though, at that particular time.PLAYBOY: What are his needs?DYLAN: A good guitar and a dark street.PLAYBOY: The guitar because he loves music, but why the dark street?DYLAN: Mostly because he needs to hide.PLAYBOY: From whom?DYLAN: From the demon within. [Pause] But what we all know is that you can't hide on a
dark street from the demon within. And there's our movie.PLAYBOY: Renaldo finds that out in the film?DYLAN: He tries to escape from the demon within, but he discovers that the demon is, in fact, a mirrored reflection of Renaldo himself.PLAYBOY: OK. Given the personalities involved, how do you define the relation ship between you, your personal life, and the film?DYLAN: No different from Hitchcock making a movie. I am the overseer.PLAYBOY: Overseeing various versions of yourself?DYLAN: Well, certain truths I know. Not necessarily myself but a certain accumulation of experience that has become real to me and a knowledge that I acquired on the road.PLAYBOY: And what are those truths?DYLAN: One is that if you try to be anyone but yourself, you will fail; if you are not true to your own heart, you will fail. Then again, there's no success like failurePLAYBOY: And failure's no success at all.DYLAN: Oh, well, we're not looking to succeed. Just by our being and acting alive, we succeed. You fail only when you let death creep in and take over a part of your life that should be alive.PLAYBOY: How does death creep in?DYLAN: Death don't come knocking at the door. It's there in the morning when you wake up.PLAYBOY: How is it there?DYLAN: Did you ever clip your fingernails, cut your hair? Then you experience death.PLAYBOY: Look, in the film, Joan Baez turns to you at one point and says, "You never give any straight answers." Do you?DYLAN: She is confronting Renaldo.PLAYBOY: Evasiveness isn't only in the mind; it can also come out - in an interview.DYLAN: There are no simple answers to these questions....PLAYBOY: Aren't you teasing the audience when you have scenes played by Baez and Sara, real people in your life, and then expect the viewers to set aside their preconceptions as to their relationship to you?DYLAN: No, no. They shouldn't even think they know anyone in this film. It's all in the context of Renaldo and Clara and there's no reason to get hung up on who's who in the movie.PLAYBOY: What about scenes such as the one in which Baez asks you, "What if we had gotten married back then?"DYLAN: Seems pretty real, don't it?PLAYBOY: Yes.DYLAN: Seems pretty real. Just like in a Bergman movie, those things seem real. There's a lot of spontaneity that goes on. Usually, the people in his films know each other, so they can interrelate. There's life and breath in every frame because everyone knew each other.PLAYBOY: All right, another question: In the movie, Ronnie Hawkins, a 300-pound Canadian rock singer, goes by the name of Bob Dylan. So is there a real Bob Dylan?DYLAN: In the movie?PLAYBOY: Yes.DYLAN: In the movie, no. He doesn't even appear in the movie. His voice is there, his songs are used, but Bob's not in the movie. It would be silly. Did you ever see a Picasso painting with Picasso in the picture? You only see his work. Now, I'm not interested in putting a picture of myself on the screen, because that's not going to do
anybody any good, including me.PLAYBOY: Then why use the name Bob Dylan at all in the movie?DYLAN: In order to legitimize this film. We confronted it head on: The persona of Bob Dylan is in the movie so we could get rid of it. There should no longer be any mystery as to who or what he is-he's there, speaking in all kinds of tongues, and there's even someone else claiming to be him, so he's covered. This movie is obvious, you know. Nobody's hiding anything. It's all right there. The rabbits are falling out of the hat before the movie begins.PLAYBOY: Do you really feel it's an accessible movie?DYLAN: Oh, perfectly. Very open movie.PLAYBOY: Even though Mr. Bob Dylan and Mrs. Bob Dylan are played by different people....DYLAN: Oh, yeah.PLAYBOY: And you don't know for sure which one he is?DYLAN: Sure. We could make a movie and you could be Bob Dylan. It wouldn't matter.PLAYBOY: But if there are two Bob Dylans in the film and Renaldo is always changing....DYLAN: Well, it could be worse. It could be three or four. Basically, it's a simple movie.PLAYBOY: How did you decide to make it?DYLAN: As I said, I had the idea for doing my own film back in '66. And I buried it until '76. My lawyer used to tell me there was a future in movies. So I said, "What kind of future?" He said, "Well, if you can come up with a script, an outline and get money from a big distributor." But I knew I couldn't work that way. I can't betray my vision on a little piece of paper in hopes of getting some money from somebody. In the final analysis, it turned out that I had to make the movie all by myself, with people who would work with me, who trusted me. I went on the road in '76 to make the money for this movie. My last two tours were to raise the money for it.PLAYBOY: How much of your money are you risking?DYLAN: I'd rather not say. It is quite a bit, but I didn't go into the bank. The budget was like $600,000, but it went over that.PLAYBOY: Did you get pleasure out of the project?DYLAN: I feel it's a story that means a great deal to me, and I got to do what I always wanted to do-make a movie. When something like that happens, it's like stopping time, and you can make people live into that moment. Not many things can do that in your daily life. You can be distracted by many things. But the main point is to make it meaningful to someone. Take Shane, for example. That moved me. On the Waterfront moved me. So when I go to see a film, I expect to be moved. I don't want to go see a movie just to kill time, or to have it just show me something I'm not aware of. I want to be moved, because that's what art is supposed to do, according to all the
great theologians. Art is supposed to take you out of your chair. It's supposed to move you from one space to another. Renaldo & Clara is not meant to put a strain on you. It's a movie to be enjoyed as a movie. I know nothing about film, I'm not a film maker. On the other hand, I do consider myself a film maker because I made this film: So I don't know.... If it doesn't move you, then it's a grand, vie was made in the spirit of "All right, if all you people out there want to talk about Dylan breaking up with his wife, about his having an affair with Joan Baez, I'll just put those people into my film and rub people's noses in the gossip, because only I know the truth?"DYLAN: It's not entirely true, because that's not what the movie is about. I'm not sure how much of Bob Dylan and Joan Baez concern anybody. To me, it isn't important. It's old news to me, so I don't think it's of much interest to anybody. If it is, fine. But I don't think it's a relevant issue. The movie doesn't deal with anything current. This is two years ago. I'm smart enough to know I shouldn't deal with any current subject on an emotional level, because usually it won't last. You need experience to write, or to sing or to act. You don't just wake up and say you're going to do it. This movie is taking experience and turning it into something else. It's not a gossipy movie.PLAYBOY: We began this discussion of your movie by comparing film makers to painters. Were you as interested in painting : as in, say, rock music when you were growing up?DYLAN: Yeah, I've always painted. I've always held on to that one way or another.PLAYBOY: Do you feel you use colors in the same way you use notes or chords?DYLAN: Oh, yeah. There's much information you could get on the meaning of colors. Every color has a certain mood and feeling. For instance, red is a very vital e color. There're a lot of reds in this movie, e a lot-of blues. A lot of cobalt blue.PLAYBOY: Why cobalt blue?DYLAN: It's the color of dissension.PLAYBOY: Did you study painting?DYLAN: A lot of the ideas I have were influenced by an old man who had definite ideas on life and the universe and nature-all that matters.PLAYBOY: Who was he?DYLAN: Just an old man. His name wouldn't mean anything to you. He came to this country from Russia in the Twenties, started out as a boxer and ended up painting portraits of women.PLAYBOY: You don't want to mention his name, just to give him a plug?DYLAN: His first name was Norman. Every time I mention somebody's name, it's like they get a tremendous amount of distraction and irrelevancy in their lives. For instance, there's this lady in L.A. I respect a lot who reads palms. Her name's Tamara Rand. She's for real, she's not a gypsy fortuneteller. But she's accurate!
She'll take a look at your hand and tell you things you feel but don't really understand about where you're heading, what the future looks like. She's a surprisingly hopeful person.PLAYBOY: Are you sure you want to know if there's bad news in your future?DYLAN: Well, sometimes when the world falls on your head, you know there are ways to get out, but you want to know which way. Usually, there's someone who can tell you how to crawl out, which way to take.PLAYBOY: Getting back to colors and chords, are there particular musical keys that have personalities or moods the way colors do for you?DYLAN: Yeah. B major and B-flat major.PLAYBOY: How would you describe them?DYLAN: (Pause) Each one is hard to define. Assume the characteristic that is true of both of them and you'll find you're not sure whether you're speaking to them or to their echo.PLAYBOY: What does a major key generally conjure up for you?DYLAN: I think any major key deals with romance.PLAYBOY: And the minor keys?DYLAN: The supernatural.PLAYBOY: What about other specific keys?DYLAN: I find C major to be the key of strength, but also the key of regret. E major is the key of confidence. A-flat major is the key of renunciation.PLAYBOY: Since we're back on the subject of music, what new songs have you planned?DYLAN: I have new songs now that are unlike anything I've ever written.PLAYBOY: Really?DYLAN: Yes.PLAYBOY: What are they like?DYLAN: Well, you'll see. I mean, unlike anything I've ever done. You couldn't even say that Blood on the Tracks or Desire have led up to this stuff. I mean, it's that far gone, it's that far out there. I'd rather not talk more about them until they're out.PLAYBOY: When the character Bob Dylan in your movie speaks the words "Rock ''n' roll is the answer," what does he mean?DYLAN: He's speaking of the sound and the rhythm. The drums and the rhythm are the answer. Get into the rhythm of it and you will lose yourself; you will forget about the brutality of it all. Then you will lose your identity. That's what he's saying..PLAYBOY: Does that happen to you, to the real Bob Dylan?DYLAN: Well, that's easy. When you're playing music and it's going well, you do lose your identity, you become totally subservient to the music you're doing in your very being.PLAYBOY: Do you feel possessed?DYLAN: It's dangerous, because its effect is that you believe that you can transcend and cope with anything. That it is the real life, that you've struck at the heart of life itself and you are on top of your dream. And there's no down. But later on, backstage, you have a different point of view.PLAYBOY: When you're onstage, do you feel the illusion that death can't get you?DYLAN: Death can't get you at all. Death's not here to get anybody. It's the appearance of the Devil, and the Devil is a coward, so knowledge will overcome that.PLAYBOY: What do you mean?DYLAN: The Devil is everything false, the Devil will go as deep as you
let the Devil go. You can leave yourself open to that. If you understand what that whole scene is about, you can easily step aside. But if you want the confrontation to begin with, well, there's plenty of it. But then again, if you believe you have a purpose and a mission, and not much time to carry it out, you don't bother about those things.PLAYBOY: Do you think you have a purpose and a mission?DYLAN: Obviously.PLAYBOY: What is it?DYLAN: Henry Miller said it: The role of an artist is to inoculate the world with disillusionment.PLAYBOY: To create rock music, you used to have to be against the system, a desperado. Is settling down an enemy of rock?DYLAN: No. You can be a priest and be in rock 'n' roll. Being a rock-'n'-roll singer is no different from being a house painter. You climb up as high as you want to. You're asking me, is rock, is the lifestyle of rock 'n' roll at odds with the lifestyle of society in general?PLAYBOY: Yes. Do you need to be in some way outside society, or in some way an outlaw, some way aDYLAN: No. Rock 'n' roll forms its own society. It's a world of its own. The same way the sports world is.PLAYBOY: But didn't you feel that it was valuable to bum around and all that sort of thing?DYLAN: Yes. But not necessarily, because you can bum around and wind up being a lawyer, you know. There isn't anything definite. Or any blueprint to it.PLAYBOY: So future rock stars could just as easily go to law school?DYLAN: For some people, it might be fine. But, getting back to that again, you have to have belief. You must have a purpose. You must believe that you-can disappear through walls. Without that belief, you're not going to become a very good rock singer, or pop singer, or folk-rock singer, or you're not going to become a very good lawyer. Or a doctor. You must know why you're doing what you're doing.PLAYBOY: Why are you doing what you're doing?DYLAN: [Pause] Because I don't know anything else to do. I'm good at it.PLAYBOY: How would you describe "it"?DYLAN: I'm an artist. I try to create art.PLAYBOY: How do you feel about your songs when you perform them years later? Do you feel your art has endured?DYLAN: How many singers feel the same way ten years later that they felt when they wrote tile song? Wait till it gets to be 20 years, you know? Now, there's a certain amount of act that you can put on, you know, you can get through on it, but there's got to be something to it that is real-not just for the moment. And a lot of my songs don't work. I wrote a lot of them just by gut-because my gut told me to write them-and they usually don't work so good as the years go on. A lot of them do work. With those, there's some truth about every one of them. And I don't think I'd
be singing if I weren't writing, you know. I would have no reason or purpose to be out there singing. I mean, I don't consider myself . . . the life of the party. [Laughs]PLAYBOY: You've given new life to some songs in recent performances, such as I Pity the Poor Immigrant in the Rolling Thunder tour.DYLAN: Oh, yes. I've given new life to a lot of them. Because I believe in them, basically. You know, I believe in them. So I do give them new life. And that can always be done. I rewrote Lay, Lady, Lay, too. No one ever mentioned that.PLAYBOY: You changed it to a much raunchier, less pretty kind of song.DYLAN: Exactly. A lot of words to that song have changed. I recorded it originally surrounded by a bunch of other songs on the Nashville Skyline album. That was the tone of the session. Once everything was set, that was the way it came out. And it was fine for that time, but I always had a feeling there was more to the song than that.PLAYBOY: Is it true that Lay, Lady, Lay,' was originally commissioned for Midnight Cowboy?DYLAN: That's right. They wound up using Freddy Neil's tune.PLAYBOY: How did it feel doing Blowin' in the Wind after all those years during your last couple of tours?DYLAN: I think I'll always be able to do that. There are certain songs that I will always be able to do. They will always have just as much meaning, if not more, as time goes on.PLAYBOY: What about Like a Rolling Stone?DYLAN: That was a great tune, yeah. It's the dynamics in the rhythm that make up Like a Rolling Stone and all of the lyrics. I tend to base all my songs on the old songs, like the old folk songs, the old blues tunes; they are always good. They always make sense.PLAYBOY: Would you talk a little about how specific songs come to you?DYLAN: They come to me when I am most isolated in space and time. I reject a lot of inspiring lines.PLAYBOY: They're too good?DYLAN: I reject a lot. I kind of know myself well enough to know that the line might be good and it is the first line that gives you inspiration and then it's just like riding a bull. That is the rest of it. Either you just stick with it or you don't. And if you believe that what you are doing is important, then you will stick with it no matter what.PLAYBOY: There are lines that are like riding wild bulls?DYLAN: There are lines like that. A lot of lines that would be better off just staying on a printed page and finishing up as poems. I forget a lot of the lines. During the day, a lot of lines will come to me that I will just say are pretty strange and I don't have anything better to do. I try not to pay too much attention to those wild. obscure lines.PLAYBOY: You say you get a single line and
then you ride it. Does the melody follow after you write out the whole song?DYLAN: I usually know the melody before she song.PLAYBOY: And it is there, waiting for that first line?DYLAN: Yeah.PLAYBOY: Do you hear it easily?DYLAN: The melody? Sometimes, and sometimes I have to find it.PLAYBOY: Do you work regularly? Do you get up every morning and practice?DYLAN: A certain part of every day I have to play.PLAYBOY: Has your playing become more complex?DYLAN: No. Musically not. I can hear more and my melodies now are more rhythmic than they ever have been, but, really, I am still with those same three chords. But, I mean, I'm not Segovia or Montoya. I don't practice 12 hours a day.PLAYBOY: Do you practice using your voice, too?DYLAN: Usually, yeah, when I'm rehearsing, especially, or when I'm writing a song, I'll be singing it.PLAYBOY: Someone said that when you gave up cigarettes, your voice changed. Now we see you're smoking again. Is your voice getting huskier again?DYLAN: No, you know, you can do anything with your voice if you put your mind to it. I mean, you can become a ventriloquist or you can become an imitator of other people's voices. I'm usually just stuck with my own voice. I can do a few other people's voices.PLAYBOY: Whose voices can you imitate?DYLAN: Richard Widmark. Sydney Greenstreet. Peter Lorre. I like those voices. They really had distinctive voices in the early talkie films. Nowadays, you go to a movie and you can't tell one voice from the other. Jane Fonda sounds like Tatum O'Neal.PLAYBOY: Has your attitude toward women changed much in your songs?DYLAN: Yeah; in the early period, I was writing more about objection, obsession or rejection. Superimposing my own reality on that which seemed to have no reality of its own.PLAYBOY: How did those opinions change?DYLAN: From neglect.PLAYBOY: From neglect?DYLAN: As you grow, things don't reach you as much as when you're still forming opinions.PLAYBOY: You mean you get hurt less easily?DYLAN: You get hurt over other matters than when you were 17. The energy of hurt isn't enough to create art.PLAYBOY: So if the women in your songs have become more real, if there are fewer goddesses -DYLAN: The goddess isn't real. A pretty woman as a goddess is just up there on a pedestal. The flower is what we are really concerned about here. The opening and the closing, the growth, the bafflement. You don't lust after flowers.PLAYBOY: Your regard for women, then, has changed?DYLAN: People are people to me. I don't single out women as anything to get hung up about.PLAYBOY: But in the past?DYLAN: In the past, I was guilty of that shameless crime.PLAYBOY: You're claiming to be completely rehabilitated?DYLAN: In that area, I don't have any serious problems.PLAYBOY: There's a line in your film in which someone says to Sara, "I need you because I need your magic to protect me.DYLAN: Well, the real magic of women is that throughout the ages, they've had to do all the work and yet they can have a sense of